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Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Text Posts from the Kids Group: 2020, published by jefftk on April 14, 2024 on LessWrong. Another round of liberating kid posts from Facebook. For reference, in 2020 Lily turned 6 and Anna turned 4. (Some of these were from me; some were from Julia. Ones saying "me" could mean either of us.) We went to the movies, and brought our own popcorn. When I passed the popcorn to Lily during the movie she was indignant, saying that we weren't supposed to bring in our own food. She ate one piece, but then said it wasn't ok and wouldn't eat more. When the movie ended, Lily wanted us to tell the people at the concession stand and apologize: "Tell them! *Tell* them." She started trying to bargain with Julia: "I'll give you a penny if you tell them. Two pennies! Three pennies, *Five* pennies!" But then we were outside and she was excitedly pretending to be Elsa, running down the sidewalk without a coat. I left for a trip on Tuesday afternoon, and beforehand Lily had asked me to give her one hour's notice before I left. I told her it would be about an hour from when she got home from school, but I forgot to give her warning at the actual one-hour mark. When I came up to read and cuddle with the kids 20 minutes before I left, she was angry that I hadn't given her enough notice. Then she went off and did something with paper, which I thought was sulking. I tried to persuade her to come sit on the couch with Anna and me and enjoy the time together, but she wouldn't. Turns out she was making a picture and had wanted enough notice to finish it before I left. It is of her, Anna, and Jeff "so you won't forget us while you're gone." I assured her I will definitely not forget them, but that this was a very nice thing to be able to bring with me. Anna: "I will buy a baby at the baby store when I am a grownup, and I will be a mama like you! And I will work at Google and have the same job as my dad." Pretty sure the kids don't think I have a real job. To be fair Google has much better food. This was the first I had heard of the baby store. We'll see how that pans out for her. Me: Before you were born we thought about what to name you, and we thought Anna would be a good name. Do you think that's a good name? Anna: No. I want to be named Bourbon. Anna: We're not going outside when we get Lily. Me: How are we going to pick up Lily from school without going outside? Anna: You can order her. Me: Order her? Anna: You will order her on your phone. Sorry, Amazon is not yet offering same-day delivery of kindergarteners from school. Lily backstage watching her dad play BIDA: she grabbed handfuls of the air, saying "I want to put the sound in my pocket." Lily: "repeat after me, 'I, Anna, won't do the terrible deed ever again'" "Papa, I'm sleepy and want to sleep *now*. Can you use the potty for me?" I let Anna try chewing gum for the first time. She knew she was supposed to just chew it and not swallow it. Her method was to make tiny dents in it with her teeth and barely put it in her mouth at all. I'd been meaning to try the marshmallow test on the kids for a while, but today Lily described it at dinner. ("From my science podcast, of course.") Lily's past the age of the children in the original studies, but Anna's well within the range. They both happily played for 15 minutes, didn't eat the candy, and got more candy at the end. Unanticipated bonus for the researcher: 15 minutes of the children playing quietly in separate rooms. Lily requesting a bedtime song: I want a song about a leprechaun and a dog, and the leprechaun asks the dog to help get a pot of gold, but the dog tricks the leprechaun and runs away with the pot of gold. Me: That's too complicated for me. It's after bedtime. Lily: The leprechaun and the dog just get the pot of gold, and the dog takes it. Me: [singing] Once there was a leprecha...

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Text Posts from the Kids Group: 2020, published by jefftk on April 14, 2024 on LessWrong. Another round of liberating kid posts from Facebook. For reference, in 2020 Lily turned 6 and Anna turned 4. (Some of these were from me; some were from Julia. Ones saying "me" could mean either of us.) We went to the movies, and brought our own popcorn. When I passed the popcorn to Lily during the movie she was indignant, saying that we weren't supposed to bring in our own food. She ate one piece, but then said it wasn't ok and wouldn't eat more. When the movie ended, Lily wanted us to tell the people at the concession stand and apologize: "Tell them! *Tell* them." She started trying to bargain with Julia: "I'll give you a penny if you tell them. Two pennies! Three pennies, *Five* pennies!" But then we were outside and she was excitedly pretending to be Elsa, running down the sidewalk without a coat. I left for a trip on Tuesday afternoon, and beforehand Lily had asked me to give her one hour's notice before I left. I told her it would be about an hour from when she got home from school, but I forgot to give her warning at the actual one-hour mark. When I came up to read and cuddle with the kids 20 minutes before I left, she was angry that I hadn't given her enough notice. Then she went off and did something with paper, which I thought was sulking. I tried to persuade her to come sit on the couch with Anna and me and enjoy the time together, but she wouldn't. Turns out she was making a picture and had wanted enough notice to finish it before I left. It is of her, Anna, and Jeff "so you won't forget us while you're gone." I assured her I will definitely not forget them, but that this was a very nice thing to be able to bring with me. Anna: "I will buy a baby at the baby store when I am a grownup, and I will be a mama like you! And I will work at Google and have the same job as my dad." Pretty sure the kids don't think I have a real job. To be fair Google has much better food. This was the first I had heard of the baby store. We'll see how that pans out for her. Me: Before you were born we thought about what to name you, and we thought Anna would be a good name. Do you think that's a good name? Anna: No. I want to be named Bourbon. Anna: We're not going outside when we get Lily. Me: How are we going to pick up Lily from school without going outside? Anna: You can order her. Me: Order her? Anna: You will order her on your phone. Sorry, Amazon is not yet offering same-day delivery of kindergarteners from school. Lily backstage watching her dad play BIDA: she grabbed handfuls of the air, saying "I want to put the sound in my pocket." Lily: "repeat after me, 'I, Anna, won't do the terrible deed ever again'" "Papa, I'm sleepy and want to sleep *now*. Can you use the potty for me?" I let Anna try chewing gum for the first time. She knew she was supposed to just chew it and not swallow it. Her method was to make tiny dents in it with her teeth and barely put it in her mouth at all. I'd been meaning to try the marshmallow test on the kids for a while, but today Lily described it at dinner. ("From my science podcast, of course.") Lily's past the age of the children in the original studies, but Anna's well within the range. They both happily played for 15 minutes, didn't eat the candy, and got more candy at the end. Unanticipated bonus for the researcher: 15 minutes of the children playing quietly in separate rooms. Lily requesting a bedtime song: I want a song about a leprechaun and a dog, and the leprechaun asks the dog to help get a pot of gold, but the dog tricks the leprechaun and runs away with the pot of gold. Me: That's too complicated for me. It's after bedtime. Lily: The leprechaun and the dog just get the pot of gold, and the dog takes it. Me: [singing] Once there was a leprecha...

From single young adults to parents of teenagers, Clarence and Anna share about their journey of serving with TeachBeyond in Germany in different seasons of life. “God brings a new opportunity; I just said yes.” -Clarence “I've taken all of these spiritual gifts tests, and pastoring or shepherding has always been an underlying theme. My heart is for people. My heart is for people to love each other and love God.” -Clarence “How can we come alongside people and guide them and help them thrive?' -Clarence “Being a missionary, it feels like everyone's supposed to be really good at pastoral ministry, like my husband is. I finally came to a place of realizing, of course I love people [...] but my gifting is more behind the scenes.” -Anna “Don't be afraid to lean into your giftings, even if it's not what we think traditional missionary giftings are supposed to be.” -Anna “You are capable of doing the hard things. Don't shy away from those things.” -Clarence “Intentionally stepping away from the project and getting out of the surroundings here allows you to gain more perspective.” -Clarence “Especially as our boys are getting older, I see people that genuinely care about them [...] That absolutely helps our longevity as a family, knowing that there are so many amazing people that are caring for our kids alongside us.” -Anna “God knits this community together to continue His work over time, and we get to see it time and time again. It's a huge privilege to be able to serve the Kingdom in this way.” -Clarence What's changing our lives: Keane: Motion sensor lights Heather: Hobby nights with friends Clarence: Coaching middle school girls basketball Anna: The Emotional Lives of Teenagers by Lisa Damour Weekly Spotlight: Administrative Assistant positions We'd love to hear from you! podcast@teachbeyond.org Podcast Website: https://teachbeyond.org/podcast Learn about TeachBeyond: https://teachbeyond.org/

In this episode, Anna is with Sabine Van der Salm.  Sabine is a coach and she will help you untangle your brain spaghetti and help you organize and anchor all your ideas into a single concept that you feel aligned with. She helps you figure out what you really want to do as an entrepreneur so that you can center your niche and avatar around a meaningful mission you're totally inspired by. They also talked about: 02:32 Finding the zone  11:14 Three pillars 16:15 Values, beliefs, and brainstorming  31:36 Where can you reach Sabine? 36:11 What does freedom mean to Sabine? Quotes:  “The things that we experience as traumas and hurts, no matter how significant or insignificant, we think it is. Those are the weapons we have to create a life of purpose and meaning.” -Sabine “But whatever happens, you can get through absolutely everything. And actually, you can turn that into a lesson and a learning and kind of help you be able to live your dreams and whatever you want to do.” -Anna  “You might have common sense and you might not be good at English and maths. We need to celebrate what we're good at instead of trying to plug the holes in the pieces that we're not good at.” -Sabine  “I'm convinced that freedom or true freedom is achieved when we find the unique way that we contribute to the world and then serve in our unique way.” -Sabine  “When you discover your true identity, that's when true freedom begins in your life.” - Sabine Check out Sabine's social media account and websites: sabine@becomingyouinc.com  https://becomingyouinc.com/  https://www.facebook.com/TheUVPcoach/  https://www.instagram.com/sabinevandersalm/  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC01NvgODRvCii4W2_1TOaaA    Do you want to be a speaker/guest on my podcast? Book a call here: https://calendly.com/annadavidson/interview  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GET THIS FREE EBOOK:  Manifesting with Visualisation http://bit.ly/3q46nDr  Check these out:  Amazon Profits Accelerator (Free 3-Day Webinar): https://bit.ly/34e9cJh  Amazon 101 Academy: https://bit.ly/2FEwWfW  Publish Your Book on Amazon 6-week Program: https://annadavidsonthawe.clickfunnels.com/kdp6  Publish Your Book on Amazon 12-month Program: https://annadavidsonthawe.clickfunnels.com/order-form-publish  Join My Tribe For Free eCommerce Training  https://www.facebook.com/groups/ecomqueenaccelerator/  Visit My Website Here https://theannadavidson.com/  You can also reach Anna on her socials: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theannadavidson/  Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/TheAnnaDavidson  YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9CXb8SSinZT70ULDspIHUA  LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-davidson-935b1844/ 

In this episode, Anna is with Lynn Howard. Lynn has put in the mental, spiritual, and physical work to make things happen. Surviving abuse, beating cancer, bootstrapping, and selling successful businesses across three continents, a COO of a global company as well as serving on NGO boards across the world, Lynn has seen a lot. She believes in putting in the work first in order to lead by example. Howard connects with a highly engaged and growing global audience who treasure her no-nonsense approach, transparency, “make things happen” attitude and intuition, in creating a life on her own terms. Howard is a globally sought-after Entrepreneurial Coach/Consultant, a mother, a grandmother, and more. Born and raised in the Chicago suburbs, Howard went on to live in Saudi Arabia after 9-11, raised her kids in Hawaii, traveled the world, and is now calling Thailand home. She is living her purpose every day to leave each place, person, and thing better than she found it.   They also talked about:   01:56 How did Lynn's journey begin 09:55 Progress over perfection  16:18 Pillars of Freedom 20:43 How Lynn survived abuse 30:17 All about Lynn's book  36:39 What does freedom mean to Lynn  Quotes:   “Everybody's got a story to tell. Nobody's life is perfect but society makes us feel like we have to be this perfect way.” -Anna   “You are not alone. You were never alone. If you reach out far enough and typically are outside of your normal network, there are people out there such as yourself, Anna, or myself who've experienced the same thing, who could hold space, and support you. -Lynn    “Fail forward, because we're all gonna fail and if you can make it fail forward, don't fail backward because that will continue the momentum of falling in the right direction.” -Lynn    “We can be open to seeing the lesson in the things that are around us, it gives us the ability to have hope and see growth when we can't see it within ourselves if we just allow a little bit of light to shine there's so much that we can see.” -Lynn   “My scars are part of me but my scars are not me” -Lynn    “We always have a choice and it's in that choice that we have freedom if we choose.” -Lynn Check out Lynn Howard's social media accounts:   FB: Lynn Howard LinkedIn: https://th.linkedin.com/in/lynnahoward    www.lynnahoward.com  www.thepursuitofbadasserie.com    Do you want to be a speaker/guest on my podcast? Book a call here: https://calendly.com/annadavidson/interview ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET THIS FREE EBOOK: Manifesting with Visualisation: http://bit.ly/3q46nDr 5 Steps To Make More Money From Home by Selling Professionally On Amazon: https://bit.ly/3A6uCq1   Check these out: Amazon Profits Accelerator (Free 3-Day Webinar): https://bit.ly/34e9cJh Amazon 101 Academy: https://bit.ly/3gvJO6l Amazon 101 Academy-Self Study: https://bit.ly/3n53DUS Make Sh*t Happen Membership: https://bit.ly/37MtCdg   Join Tribe My Facebook Group Your Freedom Project https://www.facebook.com/groups/YourFreedomProject2020/   Visit My Website Here: https://theannadavidson.com/   You can also reach Anna on her socials: Instagram - @theannadavidson Facebook - Anna Davidson YouTube - @theannadavidson

This week, we're back to our Conflicts series and exploring a really useful tool: the acronym HALT, which stands for Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired. So often when we find ourselves in conflict, there are underlying contextual issues that intensify the situation. When we can get curious about what's going on for ourselves and the people around us, we can find ways to address the discomfort so that it's easier to be creative and find solutions to the real problems underneath.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. Over the next week or two, just take some time to notice what your body feels at random times. Are you feeling hungry, angry, lonely, or tired? Each of these can feel different for different people—what do they feel like for you? Consider how they feel both physically and emotionally.2. Think about a recent conflict. Might any of the HALT factors been at play? For you? For them?3. Think about a way to remind yourself to consider HALT when you're sensing an edge to yourself or to someone around you. Maybe a reminder on your phone wallpaper? Or a note on the fridge? Or a representative object you keep in your pocket? Something that helps you keep the idea top of mind until it becomes a habit to check in to see if anyone's hungry, angry, lonely or tired.TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are so happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.So, if you're new to the podcast, we do encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes, particularly the first 14. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and have really enjoyed how they've been building on one another, so it would be great to get that foundation. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen, because that definitely helps new people find us.Today's episode is part of our Conflict series. And actually, starting with this episode, we're embarking on a four-episode mini-series, a series within a series, diving into different aspects of self-awareness, which is so valuable for helping us navigate conflict with more grace, compassion, and effectiveness. "And how?" you ask? Well, when there's conflict, it really helps to be able to communicate to the other person what we're upset about, why, and what we feel from our perspective might help resolve the conflict. So, those underlying needs. And to do that, we need to have a pretty good handle on what's going on for us. So, that's what we're exploring with this series. We need to understand ourselves well enough to recognize and identify the feelings that are being sparked by the conflict.Maybe it's anger, frustration, disappointment, embarrassment, fear, and so on. There are so many different emotions that can be sparked. And then to dig into why those particular feelings are provoked by this particular situation. So, making connections about understanding ourselves better.Also to notice any solutions we might be feeling attached to before we hear what the other person wants to share. If we jump to our solution ahead of time, that can also make the conflict more challenging to navigate. And also to recognize and acknowledge the story that we're telling ourselves about the other person. So, if we aren't able to do this kind of internal processing, we aren't likely to have enough information about our thoughts and feelings to navigate the conflict more productively, by which I mean with enough depth to actually learn more about each other and find a path forward that we're both comfortable with. So, yes, I am looking forward to this series very much.To start us off with this first week, we want to look at the immediate circumstances that surround a conflict. And to do that, I know we've both found HALT to be a really useful tool to help bring more awareness into play. And HALT stands for Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, and reminds us to take a moment to tune into our bodies. It is surprising how often one or more of these are at play exacerbating a conflict, which means it's also valuable to consider HALT from the other person's perspective.So, let's start with H for hungry. When we're hungry, we're often not able to think as clearly as usual, right? We feel irritable. We tend to snap at people, and we often aren't able to give space for listening or for being creative and coming up with solutions. We just want this conflict to be over already and even better if it goes our way. So, thankfully this one is relatively easy to take care of once we notice it's at play. We can share what's up. We can grab a quick snack. Maybe we say something like, "Let's continue our conversation in the kitchen. I'm feeling hungry and need some food so I can give you my full attention." Or a glass of water or a cup of tea.It's a quick acknowledgement of what you're feeling and how you want to address it. And interestingly, as we mentioned, playing with these things, I've noticed that continuing our conversation while I'm prepping food or grabbing a drink sometimes helps bring the confrontational energy down a bit.Because we're not literally face-to-face anymore. There's just more space for us to use and take up.ANNA: Yes. This is definitely something I have to watch out for. I can move from everything's fine to hangry really fast. And while it's so important to tune in to what's happening in our bodies, like you're talking about, it is helpful to keep HALT in mind for the people around us, too. If I feel things starting to get a little bit of an edge or something, just that off energy, a quick check-in about where are we in the day, is dinner running late? Did this person skip lunch? Is it mid-morning and we haven't had breakfast? Just checking in to see if hunger could be a factor in the edge that I'm hearing.And sometimes it's fine to point that out, right? And sometimes it won't help at all. So, definitely know your audience and know how far down I am on the hungry/hangry scale before you tell me that I need to eat. But if I think it's a factor, I will just move myself and the discussion to the kitchen, like you're talking about, grabbing a snack for myself, offering a snack to them. I might bring snacks to my partner or child wherever they happen to be, if they don't move with me but I'm still sensing this kind of energy that's escalating, especially if we're talking about siblings.It was just such a common theme with our girls when they were young that I told David he was going to need to tattoo, "FEED AT THREE" on his arm to remember that that preemptive snack made all the difference in how the rest of the day played out. He already knew to make sure that I was eating at regular intervals, but it was just this reminder that yes, something that seems like this huge conflict just completely dissolves when we have a snack and just hang out and start eating something.PAM: Yeah. I love that and just a fun joke that also helps it stick. That can be referred back to. But noticing those kinds of patterns is so very valuable in understanding not only each other, but the context and how I can go from everything's fine to horribly hangry so fast, to be able to see that the context matters. It's not just about the thing that you're in conflict about, right? Context really, really matters.So, speaking of that, next up is A, which reminds us to check in with ourselves to notice if we're feeling angry. So, when we're angry about something, that also tends to seep into our interactions with others, even if they're completely unrelated. And that makes sense, doesn't it?If, say, we had a conflict at work that day, we may well be preoccupied, playing it over and over in our heads, even after we get home. And that keeps us steeped in those emotions. Anger simmering just below the surface and ready to lash out at the slightest provocation.And that said, sometimes I don't actually realize that I'm feeling angry. And at those times, what I notice first is often that I just have a short fuse. And that's my clue to take a moment to dig in. To go through HALT and see what resonates. And that's when I may realize I'm angry about something.Maybe someone made a comment to me earlier in the day and I thought I'd just brushed it off. It rolled off my back, but I find that it's still simmering there in the background. So, once I'm aware of it, I find it's just a bit easier to now hold it apart from my current interactions so that they don't escalate, or at least I can let my family know that my frustration or my sharp words aren't about them. They're about what's going on with me and something that I am processing.But now what I can do is intentionally process that anger and process that situation, moving through it in ways that work for me rather than having it just stewing away in the background. ANNA: And being more intentional about how you're interacting with the people around you that may have absolutely nothing to do with what's sparking that anger. And so often anger is the presenting emotion, but there's so much more behind it. And recognizing and sharing as much as we can with the people around us just helps them to understand and support us. So, I love that piece.And here again, if I'm sensing an edge in a person I'm with and hunger doesn't make sense, I want to understand if something else is going on with them. And I might ask, "Hey, how was work or school today?" Or maybe I knew they had a call earlier and ask about that, or ask about a project I know they were working on that was causing some frustration. So often, people just need to feel heard and validated, and then they're actually able to move through whatever those stuck feelings are that, like you said, maybe they don't even recognize in that moment that's creating this sharp edge in their tone or whatever is going on.And so, my job is to not take it personally, to be curious and interested, to be the safe place so those feelings can be addressed and not fester when they can then come out in these ways that are more hurtful and sharp. And even if that ship has sailed and somebody snaps, I can recognize that that's about them and not me and choose to lean in and be kind like we talked about last time.PAM: Exactly, exactly. Making that choice to be kind in the moment and not taking it personally. It makes all the difference, it really does, in moving through that.So, next we've got L. And feeling lonely can stem from feeling disconnected from the people around us, particularly family, because at first it's like, how can I be lonely? I've got all these people around me. We're stuck in this house. But when that happens, I can get cranky, sniping at my loved ones, and paradoxically pushing them even further away. So, I'm creating more miscommunication and more disconnection. So, noticing my crankiness. So, we're back to that self-awareness, right? Something's got to trigger me to like, oh, what's going on? Then I can pull out HALT and hopefully soon realize that I'm actually feeling lonely. No, I am not hungry. I ate half an hour ago. And no, I don't feel angry or mad at anything in particular. Ah, let's check in with loneliness. So, now that I'm aware of that underlying feeling, I can be more considerate of myself.And for me, that means instead of staying on that surface level and pushing people away with my cranky words and actions, I can make choices from that deeper level of awareness that I'm feeling lonely right now. So, I can more intentionally reach out to others to connect. I can invite a partner or a child to join me in an activity that we enjoy together. I can focus on cultivating laughter, connection, and joy to fill up my cup. And if that feels too hard right now, if we're not able to muster that energy to think of something and go out and invite someone, we can absolutely join them in whatever they're up to. Because right now, my connection with them is the priority, not the activity itself.So, you know what? If they're doing something that they're choosing to do and they're having fun with it, I can join them and just quietly soak in that joy, connect with them through their joy in what they're doing. Even if the activity isn't something that I super love or would choose to do on my own, that's not the point. I'm not looking for an activity. I'm looking for connection. I'm feeling a bit lonely and disconnected, so I can join them in whatever they're doing and enjoying and use that to connect with them again. To get some joy just by steeping in the joy that they're having. ANNA: I love that. When we see this crankiness in a person that we love, we can think about our connection and at least just bring it to mind. Have we had time together recently? Are they feeling connected to us? We normally are and just sometimes we notice the day has slipped away from us, or we haven't had our normal check-in or it's been a busy few days even. And so, all of that happens. And in a few weeks, we'll be talking about bids for connection. And sometimes those bids are positive attempts at engagement, but sometimes it's just not as clear. So, checking in and noticing if we've been prioritizing our connection. It can be, has our child gotten time with their friends? It may not be with us directly, but just being aware that this could be at play with a foul mood is so helpful, because sometimes we or the person doesn't even realize that's at play and a bit of connection to fill their cup just totally turns things around.But this is one of those, like you were talking about with anger, I think sometimes we don't notice it. Because, like you said, we're around people and we've got people at home and maybe we even were at school or we were with a bunch of people. But depending on our personalities and how we fill our cups of connection, we really may not have had that quality time or deeper conversations or one-on-one that maybe we were looking for. And so, it really helps to keep those things in mind for ourselves and for those people that we love around us. And again, it's so much about not taking it personally, so that we can be the support we want to be for the people in our lives.PAM: Yes. Yes. And we keep mentioning that in multiple episodes because it is key not taking things personally because people's behavior is about them. It's giving us messages and clues about them, and conversely, our behavior is about us. So, even if we try to blame it on others, at first, like, "You're making me angry," it really is about our reaction to whatever is going on.So, lastly, T. When we're tired, I think it can be similar to being hungry, at least for me. It's hard to think clearly. We may feel frustrated and snippy. It's hard to listen to and empathize with others, but here the solution is just different. Rest rather than food. So, sometimes we end up tired and irritable pretty quickly, having ignored, pushed through, or not even noticed earlier signals that our body was trying to send us. So, letting others know you're feeling tired and cranky is important. It's valuable. And again, helping them understand why you may be behaving a bit out of character.Communication, information, that it's about you and your tired state. It is not about them, and that can help stop conflicts from bubbling up that serve no purpose other than damaging the connection and the relationship. And even better, I found, this was my experience when I started playing with it, when the other person knows what's up, they may well help you settle in for a nap or into bed for the night. When loved ones learn your frustration or your saltiness isn't a judgment of them personally, but has an unrelated reason, you're tired, they can quickly become understanding and helpful.So, we say we're tired, but we're pushing through to get one more chore done before we drop for the night. And maybe, maybe just one more, but when someone else says, "Hey, that can wait till tomorrow. You're so tired. Why don't you just go to bed?" That can help knock us out of the tunnel vision of, I must do this, that I've gotten stuck in, and remind me to take better care of myself. And I have found myself at times like, "Oh, I can't let anyone know that I'm tired, because they'll tell me to stop." ANNA: You're trying to trick them, but it's not working.PAM: I know, I know. That trick just doesn't work. But I think our society undervalues rest in service to productivity so much and that is the tunnel vision that I get stuck in and it's easier to get stuck when I'm tired and when I'm off. ANNA: I do think this is one that can sneak up on us. It's so common to push through being tired. There's just this expectation of it almost. And we may not even realize how much it impacts us, but it often does. Checking in with someone about how they slept. Do we need a break, a nap? Or just some quiet rest time can help. The 20-minute power nap can be a nice reset. And if rest isn't possible in the moment, just saying, "Hey, let's talk about this tomorrow. Let's put this thing aside," just helps us move from that kind of tired, grumpy, that can then go into a full on conflict if we push through those early signs. Remember that there's plenty of time and not pushing a sense of urgency when we can see someone is not feeling their best. That just leaves space for us to come back fresh and in a more creative mindset, which will make moving through a disagreement so much easier.So, again, because we're talking so much about this context, we don't want to take something that's so contextual, like being tired or hungry and then making that define a relationship, because we're now having fights about something when really it's this contextual issue. So, it just makes it so much easier to do these little check-ins.PAM: Yeah, absolutely. And I think once we start looking at this, it can be surprising to discover how often conflict erupts or gets so much worse just because one of us is out of sorts if we're hungry, angry, lonely, tired. We don't have our usual well of patience, our ability to listen attentively or even the capacity to think creatively, either one of us when we are in that state. When we can recognize that our reactions or their reactions seem out of proportion, that can be just a nice clue that we can check in with HALT and focus on addressing any of those underlying needs rather than getting defensive and focusing on that surface conflict.It is so easy to just feel defensive and like, nope. And you stay stuck there. It's like we talked about in the last episode, getting to those underlying needs. I've found so fascinating too, is that there is a good chance that once we've met that underlying need, the original conflict actually just kind of melts away right, back to being kind, not right.When we're being kind and we're looking at these underlying needs, oh my gosh, the right/wrong thing just even melts away in the first place. It's not something you need to go back to.ANNA: Right. Oh my goodness. Yeah. HALT has resolved so many conflicts for me over the years, and there's just such value in bringing myself back into my body so that I am finding the root cause instead of blaming the person in front of me or thinking that there's something wrong with the relationship as a whole.And like you said, we often find that once we address whatever the HALT issue is, it just melts away. Like it just suddenly, whatever the edge was about that particular issue, we're able to be creative again. We're able to find a solution. We're able to look at those needs. We are so influenced by what's happening in our body and then these other contextual issues. I just want to always look there first before going too far down and back and forth about something that just might fade away if we had some more food and a little bit of sleep and giving some grace to those around us. It's a kindness to them and also to ourselves. It's one more way we learn about one another and learn to navigate life together.So much of this happens by slowing things down, giving space to look around and tune in before engaging into a conflict. We can address the contextual issues and if the original problem's still there, okay, we can approach it then with curiosity, asking questions, expressing our feelings and needs, but it's going to be a lot more intentional and less charged if we work through those contextual bits first.PAM: Exactly. Yeah. That's why we wanted to start with this one because yeah, it is in the moment. How are we in this moment? So, as you contemplate HALT as a tool for increasing self-awareness, particularly when it comes to navigating conflict, like self-awareness is good, but it is extra helpful when we're navigating conflict, here are some questions that might be helpful for you to consider.So, number one, over the next week or two, just take some time to notice what your body feels at random times. Are you feeling hungry, angry, lonely, tired? Get used to just asking yourself those questions, whether or not there's conflict going around, because each of these can feel different for different people. So, discover what they feel like for you. It'll be easier over time for you to more quickly identify that. And consider how they feel both physically and emotionally. Because there can be physical aspects as well.Question two, think about a recent conflict. Might any of the HALT factors been at play? Think about it for yourself and think about it for the other person.Number three, think about a way to remind yourself to consider HALT when you're sensing an edge to yourself or to someone around you or between other people. I have done all of these over the years, so maybe a reminder on your phone wallpaper, so that you just see that when you turn on your phone and it's like, oh yeah, HALT. What about that? Or maybe it's a note on the fridge. Just the word HALT. Doesn't need to be a big message. Or a representative object that you keep in your pocket. Just something that helps you keep the idea top of mind until it becomes a habit to check in, to see if you or anyone else are hungry, angry, lonely, or tired.Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye!

Welcome to March 22nd, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate the 35th state and dessert for breakfast. West Virginia; the last of the states to be created from one of the original thirteen colonies, formed by staunch Union supporters when Virginia voted to secede from the Union at the beginning of the Civil War. West Virginia is also called The Mountain State with the Allegheny, Appalachian and Blue Ridge Mountains running through the state. The newest National Park is in West Virginia, the New River Gorge National Park with over 70,000 acres of hiking, white water rafting and climbing among other pursuits. On National West Virginia Day, we celebrate from Harpers Ferry to Wheeling, the 35th of these United States of America. Anna: Hey, watcha snacking on there Marlo? Marlo: Nothing. Anna: It doesn't sound like “nothing.” Is that chocolate syrup on your face? Marlo: No. Anna: Marlo, you are clearing eating dessert for breakfast? What I wanna I know is why didn't you save some for me? Is that a Bavarian Crepe? Marlo: Maybe. Anna: Ok, but if you're celebrating National Bavarian Crepe Day why didn't you bring any for us? Marlo: Cause I'm celebrating National Goof Off Day? Anna: You are a goof off. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this last interview episode of season one, our sweet 16 episode,  I have the privilege of speaking with Anna De Cheke Qualls, who is not only behind the communication and social media of the Tisza Ensemble, who you may recognize as a previous guest of the podcast, but Anna also brings her professional expertise to the conversation, as she is a leader in the field of communications. We talk specifically about the big Hungarian Community, or the diaspora outside of Hungary. We discuss how important it is for Hungarian communities, organizations, businesses, and even people to maintain strong consistent communication with, not only their social media presence, but with each other,  in efforts to maintain relevance and provide support for existing communities and people, as well as the ability to welcome and support the new and potentially interested people who are looking to connect to their Hungarian heritage. What makes this episode so great is that we discuss a myriad of options and suggestions, as we are trying to spread positivity by igniting the communication practices, specifically through social media, which we know will bring our diaspora communities even closer, and it will provide and avenue for all those seeking a closer connection to their Hungarian Heritage. The positive topics Anna and I discuss can be used for anyone  seeking to increase their presence and connection within their own specific community. After the episode, I hope you feel the positivity that we tried to promote and that you feel inspired to make deeper connections within your Hungarian community. We are all seeking the same thing, which is a closer connection to our Hungarian Heritage, and you never know how a small gesture on your part can positively influence someone seeking that first connection to their Hungarian Heritage. I know that I will be using a lot of Anna's communication expertise going forward, and, as always you will find all the ways to connect with Anna and the podcast in the show notes below. Thanks for listening to this, sweet 16 episode of the Hungarian Heritage Podcast with Anna De Cheke Qualls. Thanks for listening and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review! Here are all the ways to connect with Anna:You can reach out and direct message Anna on Tisza Ensemble's  Instagram at:https://www.instagram.com/tiszaensemble/You can find the Tisza Ensemble  on Facebook at:https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100064691678426You can reach out on the Tisza Ensemble's website: https://tiszaensemble.org/Follow the Hungarian Heritage Podcast on Instagram:@hungarianheritagepodcastContact the Hungarian Heritage Podcast at:Hungarianheritagepodcast@gmail.comThe Hungarian Heritage Podcast's Website www.thehungarianheritagepodcast.comFollow the Hungarian Heritage Podcast on Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/The-Hungarian-Heritage-Podcast-101947522533811Subscribe to The Hungarian Heritage Podcast's mailing list:https://thehungarianheritagepodcast.com/subscribe

Welcome to March 2, 2023 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate golden oldies and loveable authors. Anna: Hey Marlo did you ever watch the game show $100K Pyramid? Marlo: Hosted by Dick Clark? Of Course I did! Anna: You wanna play? Marlo: Sure! Anna: All the clues will be things that are old. Ready?            These items come in 33s, 45s, 78s and are played on a turntable. Marlo: Vinyl Records. Anna: This Rolling Stone is known for his strut and pouty lips and is now a great grandfather. Marlo: Mick Jagger. Anna: This guy began his career at World Book Encyclopedias and is now the keeper of the calendar. Marlo: Hey! I resemble that remark. Anna: Happy National Old Stuff Day, Marlo. On National Read Across America Day, we celebrate literacy and the authors who make it fun. Theodor Geisel was born on this day in 1904. He wrote and illustrated more than 60 books under the pen name Dr. Seuss. During World War II he even went to war using political cartoons that denounced the tyrants of the day. But he is best loved for his mark on children's literature and today we honor him with a poem of our own. From the biggest of big to the smallest of small, books open worlds to every and all. With stories of zazzles and hooplahs and rats, dragons and castles and ponies and cats. Pages of whats its, who dance with their snoodles. And swim with their frogs and their dizzles and poodles! Whatever you want, just read something today to celebrate National Dr. Seuss Day! I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this podcast, Anna and Mahima is a Self Mastery Mentor, Mindset Trainer, International Bestselling Author, and Award Winning Speaker and Founder of The Mahima Mindset. Mahima explains how meditation and self-love can increase self-awareness and happiness. She discusses her journey to finding her natural talent after experiencing trauma and divorce. Through meditation, she realized that material possessions don't bring happiness. She stresses the importance of taking responsibility for one's emotional and spiritual well-being rather than depending on external factors.   01:27 Using Meditation for Self-Mastery and Awareness 03:17 Taking Responsibility for Your Mental, Emotional, and Spiritual Well-being 14:57 Importance of Coaching for Personal Growth 15:27 The Value of Learning from Coaches and Teachers  18:51 Creating a Life in Alignment with Your Values 26:06 The Importance of Personal Growth 29:14 Creating the Life You Want 29:55 Manifesting Your Desires   Investing in oneself and working on one's personal growth, no matter what background or circumstances one comes from. It emphasizes the importance of creating a better world through personal transformation and being clear about one's goals and desires in life. Mahima encourages the audience to focus on their 'what' rather than their 'how' and to have faith that the 'how' will reveal itself in due course. “Trust me, it's not easy working on yourself, but it's worth it because you get to create on levels that you only do it like.” - Mahima “Get clear. What do you want? What is your what? Most people ask how before they know what. And that's the problem, right?” - Mahima “Freedom is knowing who you are in the core and being able to rest, rejuvenate, restore, act, think and operate from that place of self in love.” - Mahima “If someone had asked me what freedom was 20 years ago, we would have said something completely different than I do now.” - Anna “My way of coping was to keep busy. Yes, external always sort of internal things.” - Anna   You can visit Mahima's website at https://themahimamindset.com/    Check out Mahima's social media account: https://www.instagram.com/mahimamindset/ https://www.facebook.com/MahimaMindset https://ch.linkedin.com/in/mahimaklinge   Do you want to be a speaker/guest on my podcast? Book a call here: https://calendly.com/annadavidson/interview ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET THIS FREE EBOOK: Manifesting with Visualisation: http://bit.ly/3q46nDr 5 Steps To Make More Money From Home by Selling Professionally On Amazon: https://bit.ly/3A6uCq1   Check these out:  Amazon Profits Accelerator (Free 3-Day Webinar): https://bit.ly/34e9cJh Amazon 101 Academy: https://bit.ly/3gvJO6l Amazon 101 Academy-Self Study: https://bit.ly/3n53DUS Make Sh*t Happen Membership: https://bit.ly/37MtCdg   Join Tribe My Facebook Group Your Freedom Project https://www.facebook.com/groups/YourFreedomProject2020/    Visit My Website Here: https://theannadavidson.com/   You can also reach Anna on her socials: Instagram - @theannadavidson Facebook - Anna Davidson YouTube - @theannadavidson

Welcome to December 27, 2022 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate starting something new and being nutty as a fruitcake.  Anna: You probably didn't notice this Marlo, but December is Learn a Foreign Language Month. Marlo: You know, I didn't notice it obviously. I can't even say "Mario" correctly. Anna: You were too busy giving out calendars and hanging out with Santa Claus. John, didn't you learn Spanish or Portuguese? John: Si, si; uh, espagnol y un petit peu de français. Anna: Wow, I'm impressed. It's because you took a trip. John: Yes, and I learned no Croatian or Greek while I was there. Anna: Well, you know it's not too late. I mean, I know we have like four days, but you can start learning a new language today and it wouldn't be a bad call. What language would you pick Marlo? Marlo: I would probably pick Italian. Anna/John: "Eh, it's a me, it's a Mario." Anna: During Learn A Foreign Language Month don't be afraid to start something new. Your tree may be losing its needles, but one holiday item is still holding onto its cheer, the fruitcake. That's because they are built to last. In the early 1700s these dense cakes were baked during harvest time and loaded with nuts and fruits. They were then saved until the following year to ensure the next season's bounty. Perhaps your fruitcake has become a holiday joke that gets tossed or re-gifted. Don't forget that National Fruitcake Toss Day is just around the corner. On this day fruitcakes are launched in creative ways and last year's cake becomes this year's ammunition. On National Fruitcake Day, celebrate your own favorite tradition, even if you're labeled nutty as a fruitcake.   I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, we're talking about connection!How connected we're feeling to the people in our lives is a helpful barometer of our relationships. Feeling disconnected can be a sign that it's time to more intentionally cultivate connecting moments. Anna shares one of the questions that guides her decision-making: 'Is what I'm about to do going to enhance or harm my connection with this person?' We also explore the idea of bids for connection, which can be an enlightening lens through which to view our interactions. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. And join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.What does connection with another person feel like for you?What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? How might those overlap?How do you typically react when an attempt to connect with someone goes unexpectedly? Would that change if you framed it as learning something new about them?What bids for connection do you notice and are you responding in the way you'd like to?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are excited you found us, and are interested in exploring our relationships and who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we choose to move through the world. And in today's episode, we are going to talk about connection.So, connecting with another person on an emotional level creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, of understanding and appreciating each other in that moment. Regularly cultivating connection with someone builds a stronger and stronger relationship with them. You get to know and understand each other better. You come to anticipate their needs and they, yours.So, for me, how connected I'm feeling to another person is kind of a barometer of our relationship. If I'm feeling disconnected, I more purposefully seek out connecting moments with them. A connecting moment might be sharing an activity together, from watching a movie, going for a walk, playing a game, whatever feels good together.But the really important piece for it to be connecting is that the other person needs to enjoy it. This was something that I had to learn along the way. It's not particularly connecting for me to cajole my partner into going for a walk with me if they don't enjoy walks. They will likely spend a good chunk of that time looking forward to it being over, rather than enjoying each other's company. They will just have that in the back of their mind. "Have we walked long enough? Have we walked far enough? When's it time to turn back?"So, if I want to connect with someone, whether it be a partner, child, friend, it is helpful to suggest an activity that they enjoy. They will also feel seen and heard by that. "Oh, they know how much I love to go for a walk. Yay!" Or, "to play that game, yay!" etc. That will help them feel seen as the person they are by me, because connecting with another person really is about seeing and celebrating them for who they are, not who I wish they were. That is a subtle but very important difference.And in that space of enjoying an activity together, often we can both chat more freely and openly, learning more about what's up in each other's days, sharing what we've been enjoying, and what challenges we may be feeling. That is connecting with them. It doesn't need to be anything big, doesn't need to be anything special, but doing things together that we enjoy opens up that space for connecting and conversations and sharing little pieces of ourselves with each other.So, what does connection look like for you, Anna?ANNA: You know I'm excited to talk about connection! I keep connection as a lens for just about everything. I often ask myself, is what I'm about to say or do, going to enhance or harm my connection with this person? And if I'm honest about that and act from a place of choosing connection, conflicts are avoided. The lines of communication remain open. Because here's the thing. So, I'm choosing to be in relationship with this person. I love them. I want us to enjoy our time together, so I want to take ownership of who I am. I want to act from a place of being the person that I want to be. And for me, that person is kind and compassionate and extends unconditional regard to my loved ones.Do I fall short of that sometimes? Yes. Yes, I do.But if I keep connection as the lens, if I check in about my actions before acting, I can choose to be that person more and more. And it becomes easier and easier.The other thing about being connected that I want to talk about is that we're on the same team. I talk to a lot of couples who are approaching disagreements or meeting their needs as basically this zero-sum game. When, instead, we keep our connection at the forefront, we're able to approach problems and meeting each other's needs as a puzzle that we're solving together. We're on the same side.We can give each other that generous assumption, which is basically we love each other. We're in this together. We want to help each other feel seen and heard. We want each of our needs to be met. Coming from that place leaves a world of possibilities that we cannot see when we're tunneling in and defending our own needs without regard for the other in this oppositional, volleying back and forth, defend and receive.PAM: Exactly. Feeling connected with another person really does feel like we're on the same team. I love that. We are in alignment. We want to help each other get our needs met and work toward accomplishing our goals.For me, that feeling of being on the same team makes all the difference in our interactions, in our connection. Conflicts, or even just conversations, aren't that back and forth of offense and defense and winner and loser and how many times have they won and how many times have I lost, etc. It is just a team effort in creatively trying to meet everyone's needs and wishes and help each other along. That just feels so much better, too.ANNA: So much better.PAM: One thing I also wanted to mention is that sometimes our attempts at connection may not land with the other person. They may even go sideways, like, what the heck? That is totally okay. Like really, that's okay. It is not a failure. We don't need to take that personally, as an attack on us. Again, like offense/defense.In fact, same team, when you bring that lens, we can often use that to learn a bit more about them. Oh, what was it about that thing? Was it the activity that they weren't interested in? Were they busy with somebody or something that's important to them? Maybe they're stressed about something that's going on in their life, like a work issue. Something else has their focus. So, it doesn't need to be a rejection of us. It's like, oh, there's other things going on in our life. And we can really be so quick to take everything personally. I definitely know that I can, but when I can take that moment to remember, no, it doesn't need to be about me, per se. What else is going on? It is so interesting and so often, that's really the case. They're not trying to piss us off or trying to make us feel bad.None of that.ANNA: It's not about us at all usually.PAM: Exactly. Or in that moment, maybe we can learn a bit about ourselves or maybe both. Right? Maybe we put out-sized expectations on the other person. Maybe we didn't end up enjoying the activity and we're the one who's distracted instead of engaged in the moment. Maybe we were tired, like we just felt like we needed to do this thing and we pushed ourselves to try and connect with them, but in the end, it didn't turn out very well for us. Life happens. We learn from that experience and we try again.We are always learning. There is just so much about each other. When we're talking about relationships, there's so much to learn, because we are different in each moment. When we're tired, we're different in that moment. The things that we can do are different, the conversations that we can have, but being more open and honest about those moments, it is so helpful for relationships.And it also helps to be open to noticing when your partner or your child is trying to connect with you and try to be responsive in those moments.If we are stuck in our heads, it can feel like we're the only one prioritizing the relationship. We feel like we're the only ones inviting and inviting. But if we can notice, so often, we may not realize what it is at first, but when they invite us to join them, chances are they are looking to connect with us. And it may look very different than how we might want to connect with them, but a connection is just as valuable either way.And, in fact, it enhances relationship when the connections go both ways. There's a term that we toss around, we learned about last year or so, was it? Bids for connection. You want to talk about that a little bit more?ANNA: Yeah, I definitely want to touch on bids for connection. I think the idea comes from the Gottman Institute. The funny thing about them is they don't always look straight forward like, "Hey, I want to feel closer to you now." Sometimes it looks like picking a fight or a grumpy comment. Sometimes it looks like asking for something that we can do ourselves. "Hey, can you get me water, even though you have to walk in front of me to go get the water that I'm asking for?" Sometimes it looks like pulling away or getting quiet. And as we learn more about each other, we see the bids for what they are and the underlying need that they're trying to meet. And then we can check in and respond with kindness and that can open up the lines of communication and avoid a situation where people don't feel heard.Love languages can also play a role here. Knowing how we give and receive love can help make sure that what we're putting out is love is being received as such.But with the bids, like you said, it's so interesting, because we'll be in our heads about, I want to make this relationship better, and maybe that person's telling us a story from work and we're actually still in our head thinking, "We're not doing relationship things," or we're not doing the thing the way it looks in our head.But really, wanting to share that bit from work or the child wanting to share the bit about their game, that is the bid for connection. That is them wanting to bring us into their world. And so, for me, I just want to keep really open to that. I just want to be open, so that I'm seeing that in the people that are around me that I love, and that I'm acknowledging that and I'm responding.And yes, like you said earlier, sometimes we have capacity issues to deal with. Sometimes there just isn't enough, or the time is not right, or we're tired. But I find even in those situations, when I see the bid, I'm able to acknowledge the bid. Even if I can't dive in fully to maybe what they're needing for the, in that moment, it's so much better than brushing it off.PAM: Yes, when you can acknowledge it and be a bit transparent by saying, "Ah, that's wonderful. I love that. I can't wait to join you, or I can't wait to hear that story. I'm just really tired right now. Can we do it in the morning? Can we do it after I've had a nap? Or I'm just going to sit here and have a tea or a coffee for a few minutes," to acknowledge so that they feel seen and heard in that moment.And there was one other thing that came up. So, as we've been talking this whole time about connection, and you touched on this and I think it's super important, is the idea that we can have these visions in our head of what being in relationship means. And it can mean all sorts of fancy things in our head. We can have these visions of, we need to go out on a date every week, right? We need to go outside of the house, all these pieces. And the everyday connection doesn't count. But, truly, in the everyday connection, that is the foundation. Those are the connections that we're building.It doesn't mean we don't do the bigger things. It just means the relationship isn't on hold between the bigger things.ANNA: Exactly. And this is what we were talking about that I said in the first episode that we're going to keep repeating, it's that outside voice, because I think we come into it maybe from movies, whatever, that we had this idea of what relationships look like, but it really is the everyday of just sharing the ups and downs and getting the things done around the house and just moving through our days together that builds that foundation, that then we can do all these other fun things and big things. Because the reality is, the big fun things are going to be sprinkled throughout our year. But if that's what we're pinning our hopes on, that's not going to get us through. So, we have to figure out how to keep that connection alive and rich and wonderful in those everyday moments. And it is listening for those bids. It is being available.PAM: Yes. And just think for a moment, when you have that connection going throughout your days, your every days, you're already pretty well connected when those bigger moments come. And how much more fun are those when you're already connected, instead of thinking-ANNA: We're going to get it there!PAM: We have to go and relearn each other for our weekend away. Let's reconnect, finally.ANNA: Right. And isn't that why some of those things go awry? Sometimes, we have this idea like, we're going to have this amazing date, or we're going to take this amazing trip and then it ends up falling flat. But I think so much of that is because maybe we haven't been tending to those pieces in between, and so, we're pinning our hopes on this big time away or this big thing, and it falls a little bit short.So, yeah, I think that's super interesting to watch for and think about.PAM: Yes. Yes. Okay. So, I have some questions to share for people to ponder as they're exploring connections, alongside all the ones we've already talked about.So, what does connection with another person feel like for you?What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? What do you love to do together? How can these different things overlap? It doesn't always need to be one thing. Sitting on the couch together or playing a game together, those are all perfectly wonderful ways to connect.How do you typically react when an attempt to connect, a bid for connection that we're putting out, goes unexpectedly? So, when you offer up, "Oh, let's sit down and have a coffee together, or a tea together," and they say no, how do you typically react? How does that feel? Would that change if you framed it as a learning something new about them? "Oh, I didn't know they were really into the thing they were doing. Oh, I didn't know that thing went strange at work today, and you're really worried about that," because those things going awry are actually opportunities to learn more.And then, again, let's think about the bits for connection coming the other way. Just keep an eye open for that over the next little while. I love what you said that the bids don't always look perfect. As in, "Let's do this together!" It can be, "Oh, my gosh, I had such a rough day at work. I want to vent about it." That is a bid for connection. That is some support another person is looking for. And we can learn more about their lives. It can be a child really frustrated about something that went wrong and what they're trying to do, and they come to you. That's a bid for connection, for some support in what they are looking to do. Maybe it's the infamous, "I'm bored," you know? They're just looking to chat with somebody for a while.There are so many possibilities when you just open up and start looking for what might potentially be bids for connections, opportunities for connection.ANNA: Absolutely.PAM: Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye.

In this podcast, Anna is with Dustin and Jaden. Dustin Steffey and Jaden Norvell are both from the ‘Choppin with Fire' podcast. Their podcast focuses on giving people the best tools for success, including self-improvement, entrepreneurship, and wise investments in the crypto and NFT worlds. What's more, is that their podcast has been nominated as the best business podcast for the 2022 Podcast People's Choice Awards.   Dustin graduated with an MBA emphasizing sports management from Tiffin University. After completing his MBA he wanted to become a Doctor in the field of Business. Dustin is currently studying Organizational Leadership at the University of Phoenix, he spent his time in his doctorate studying behaviors of people with an emphasis on the millennial generation.   Today, he strives to help others create financial success by helping to teach techniques learned in his studies and by the experience he has learned from others he has surrounded himself around. He is grateful for the opportunity to help others see their own potential and success and looks forward to ensuring that the podcast is thriving and our chop nation listeners are able to take golden nuggets from our interviews and learned experiences.    Jaden, on the other hand, is originally from Norman Oklahoma. He is the son of head football coach Jaden Norvell and his wife Kim Norvell. During the last five years, Jaden has had the opportunity to be on the sidelines right next to Coach Norvell. This has allowed Jaden to develop an immense knowledge of the game on and off the field due to the experience on the sidelines and insights from viewing many collegiate and professional games. Jaden also played football until his sophomore year of high school. Jaden's football connections run deep as he has been by his father's side for over a decade learning and networking. Jaden plans to bring the players, coaches, and staff he has networked with on the podcast to add value and insights to the student section about football on and off the field. Jaden's end result is to help shape others, provide education, and become a respected public figure.   Jaden graduated from high school in 2018 and attended college at the University of Nevada, Reno before transferring to Colorado State where he will continue his undergraduate degree. Find out how to be the driver of your life by listening to the amazing journey of Dustin and Jaden in this episode.   They also talked about:   06:52 Dustin's journey to the top, from the rock bottom  17:22 Accepting responsibility and finding out your purpose  23:51 Pros and cons of social media  27:36 The Technology in the future 30:00 The ‘Choppin with Fire' podcast  36:56 What does freedom mean to Dustin and Jaden? Quotes:     “Happiness is what you think, what you say, and what you do all in harmony.”-Anna     “You need to chase your own dreams to be successful.” - Jaden    “If you feel stuck and you have too much pride or you feel alone, use the resources that you have in front of you today with technology, find a podcast that you can relate to, read a book that inspires you, and do activities that help you to figure out a way to get out of that downward spiral. And if all else. Find someone that is willing to listen and help. If you can't find someone, then I suggest doing the self-aiding activities of finding a podcast or reading a book or just finding an outlet to really find that success.” - Jaden   “You've already made it through your worst day. Everybody has in their mind a day that was really bad in their life, and you've already made it through that day.” - Dustin    “You've gotta be able to have somebody that you can like share your concern or worries to go. Then things start building up and you've gotta have that release” - Anna    “Everything you post stays online forever. Just cuz it's deleted doesn't mean it's deleted and you gotta think later in life” - Jaden   “I would encourage younger people to make sure that they have quality interactions when they're in person with their friends and not just be that guy who only texts people on the phone.”- Jaden   “If I lose myself in the process of loving technology, then where is my human trait? Where is my soul? Where is who I am as a person? and so for me, the future, it's undefined right now. We can see that if we keep at the trajectory that we're at, it's gonna cause some issues.” -Dustin   Check out Dustin and Jaden's social media accounts:   Website: www.choppinwithfire.com  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/choppin-with-fire  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/choppinwithfire/  Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChoppinFire  Snapchat: Choppinwithfire  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/ChoppinwithFire   Do you want to be a speaker/guest on my podcast? Book a call here: https://calendly.com/annadavidson/interview ------------------------------------------------------------------------ GET THIS FREE EBOOK: Manifesting with Visualisation: http://bit.ly/3q46nDr 5 Steps To Make More Money From Home by Selling Professionally On Amazon: https://bit.ly/3A6uCq1   Check these out:  Amazon Profits Accelerator (Free 3-Day Webinar): https://bit.ly/34e9cJh Amazon 101 Academy: https://bit.ly/3gvJO6l Amazon 101 Academy-Self Study: https://bit.ly/3n53DUS Make Sh*t Happen Membership: https://bit.ly/37MtCdg   Join Tribe My Facebook Group Your Freedom Project https://www.facebook.com/groups/YourFreedomProject2020/    Visit My Website Here: https://theannadavidson.com/   You can also reach Anna on her socials: Instagram - @theannadavidson Facebook - Anna Davidson YouTube - @theannadavidson

INTRODUCTION: Anna, pronouns anything respectful, is a Chicago-born social entrepreneur who builds streaming platforms which center & celebrate BIPOC & QTPOC creatives. Media has always been her passion and in 2009 she turned that passion into a reality when she founded E3 Radio, an online radio station playing Queer music & reporting on Queer news with an intersectional lens. Most recently, she founded The Qube, a curated app of music & podcasts by BIPOC & QTPOC creatives. Anna is determined to ride media into its next era by utilizing digital media streams to tell the stories and play the music that deserves to be heard.  Learn more about her work here. In no particular order I'm also a daughter, wife, sister, and friend who loves cooking and running. Favorite Quote: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” –Gandhi Did you know? Anna has been in love with Robin Roberts all her life. Interviewing her would be the ultimate experience. Media Coverage ABC 7 Pride Coveragehttps://abc7.ws/3BGSAZz  Choose Your Struggle https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VaUCZRfUCxUNzdfmAibuV?si=Wqu7M0knQmWZYyJ_Ahmleg&nd=1 191: Learn How To Do Queer Radio Right with Anna DeShawn, Founder of E3 Radiohttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/191-learn-how-to-do-queer-radio-right-anna-deshawn/id1189319336?i=1000521261587  Trindi Media Podcasthttps://podcasts.bcast.fm/e/mn4wvyq8 Park Careers Podcasthttps://anchor.fm/icparkcareerspodcast/episodes/Episode-9--Anna-DeShawn-IC07-e10l4bp/a-a5haqne   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Exposure To The Qube App·      Celebration Of BIPOC & QTPOC Creatives·      Why It's Good To Be Complete BEFORE You Enter A Relationship·      Why Mental Health Therapy Is SOOO Damn Good For You·      The Variety Of Mental Health Options Available To You·       A Warning Against Being Addicted To Church·      A Warning About Biblical Interpretation·      Politics & Religion = YUCK!·      Why Being Non – Straight Is Not A Damn Choice! CONNECT WITH ANNA: Website & Radio: https://www.AnnaDeShawn.comTikTok: https://tiktok.com/@annadeshawn Facebook: https://facebook.com/annadeshawnInstagram: https://instagram.com/annadeshawn  Twitter: https://twitter.com/annadeshawn  E3 Radio: https://e3radio.fmThe Qube: https://theqube.app   ANNA'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      EyeWear: https://thekayakollection.com·      VDOM: https://thevdom.com/the-vdom/ CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: What's up. What's up. What's up everyone. I'm so happy to have you with me again. One more week. I hope everyone is fucking fantastic. Happy Cinco de Mayo. Today we have a spotlight on black indigenous people of color and queer trans people of color as well. Anna de Shawn has created the cube app, which is a safe space for creative people of color of various ideas.We dish on religion, sex [00:01:00] self-acceptance mental health and so much more. And I throw some shade at Lakewood church over in Houston, Texas, because of the way they dehumanize people behind the scenes. Take a listen to my people.Anna. Good girl, girl. How the fuck is you doing the day? That's what I need to know. Anna: I'm amazing that I'm here with you period. De'Vannon: Looking at you, trying to gain me up, see energy. Like that is the reason why sometimes contemplate letting a lesbian fuck me in the ass because y'all have got that. Yeah. The game was on point.The words on point y'all is I am a survivor. I'm like, oh, almost y'all I'm just like Emile come in there. And I'm like a good low to come in my ass. Okay. Anna: We don't get that. We don't got that. We got a lot of other things, but we got a lot of other. De'Vannon: Although they [00:02:00] have those buildings. Now you can put something like different juices or whatever in them, and then it'll squirt it into whatever hole you want.So Anna: mommy, my homemade is actually creating this really amazing strap. It's her, her business is called V Dom. Y'all should check it out. V D O M she was on television recently for a pitch competition. Like it's like mechanical, so it's not hard all the time. So you hit a button, it gets hard on the, on the whim.It's like from an app. So you don't gotta go. And like, yo it's legit stuff. It's good De'Vannon: stuff. So it's a Dick, a plastic Dick that get, that can give, go from levels of softness to hard, Anna: but the press of a button. De'Vannon: I ain't seen that before. Hmm. Next level I found real. It, it okay. Also Anna de Shawn is a bad bitch.She. It's the [00:03:00] greater of an app called the cube. She hosts the radio station and everything like that. And she considered herself to also be a social entrepreneur as an initial. We're going to be talking about what the cube is, how this benefits the LGBTQ plus community, the alphabet mafia, as I like to call us, because we will fuck a bitch up if we have to, we don't want to, but sometimes y'all just make us pull the will Smith on a bitch and just Anna: necessary.Okay. Sometimes it's necessary.De'Vannon: I don't think he should have done it, but I'm not here to judge him. I feel suck his Dick right now and buy tickets to his movie. But I, we, we, we will not be slapping everybody on Smith. Anna: I don't know what he was thinking. I think actually, I think he thought it was recorded. I think he forgot. It was like. I mean, there's so De'Vannon: many of them things, it's just like he's sitting at his [00:04:00] kitchen table.Anna: I think he forgot it was left. I think he thought they were going to be able to enter that up. De'Vannon: So we'll be talking about what the cube is. It's a new thing specific for our community and people of color and things like that to help help us with podcasts and getting our creative arts and media out there.And then we're going to talk about Anna's history. She has a lot of history with the church and church Bo shit, and there's so much bullshit and the church is unreal. And so what do you got to say about your own history? Tell us about you got the run Anna: down to the quick rundown, quick rundown south side of Chicago, born and raised.I consider myself a social entrepreneur who. Platforms digital platforms that celebrate and center black, brown and queer folks of color. I, I love my [00:05:00] people and I love the power that media has to actually create some change, some meaningful change to humanize people's stories and experiences. And I think that we have the power to shift that, you know, if we tap into it and since 2009, I've been interviewing black queer folks to raise awareness around our stories out of Chicago.And I've always been into media. Let's be clear, Robin Roberts is everything to me. Okay. I want it to grow up and be just like her on ESPN or doing some play by play announcing. But it became very clear that people don't look like me on television. They're not masculine the center. Prokes a report in the 10 o'clock news.Okay. But radio allowed for me to speak to folks without folks having to see me. And that is a very powerful thing. And I realized I really loved it. So I got into radio. Which of course leads you into podcasting. And then I just saw the same things that were happening in traditional media. What's happening in podcasts.I'm like, where are my black people at? Where am I brown people at? Where am I queer [00:06:00]folks of color at? Like, why is it that when I go to apple and Spotify and all these places, like I can't find my people and I wanted to change that. De'Vannon: Well, it is a noteworthy thing you're doing. And I can tell you have sense enough to understand that this is something that's takes time.You know, this is, this is a long-term dedicated process. Does it? Don't take, you know, a long, long time to, to see, come to fruition. Hopefully you see it in your generation, but you know, you know, these things take time. So I appreciate that. You're laying this foundation here, you know, for generations to come, you know, I can see it in a, in a hundred years, you know, you know, when you did that and gone somebody is going to have a very successful.Show you know, public broadcast and everything like that. You gonna be like, we want to thank him to Sean for the work that we did back in 2009 to make this day [00:07:00] possible for me in 3050 or whatever the Anna: case. That's unbelievable. Let me tell you. But I do say this, that I do see the radio station and what we're building with the cube as being far bigger than myself, I feel like, and I think we connect can connect on this on a spiritual level.Like we're here because we're called to do something. And when I think when you tap into your call, it is bigger than you because you're just a vessel for the work and you've been given some gifts and you, and you've been called to use them. And so I feel like I'm called to use these gifts in this way.Everything about me says I'm about systematic changes about changes that can affect masses amount of people. That's what I'm called to do. Some folks is called to be in the streets activating, you know, some folks has called to do one-on-one work and change people's lives one by one by one. And I feel like I've been called to change folks' lives through media and a massive amount of [00:08:00] ways.And so I'm excited about what the cube is going to be to the world of podcasting. I'm excited what it's going to be for discoverability. Today 43% of people listening to podcasts actually identify as people of color and there's no place that is serving those folks. And the discoverability of those folks.There's so many people like you creating amazing content, raw content, authentic content, quality content, and more people need to know, you know what I'm saying about sex drugs and Jesus. Come on. De'Vannon: Okay. We don't want to go down that rabbit hole is a tight, deep hole and trust me may have gotten stuck in it.Anna: I love you. De'Vannon: So I love you too, baby. So one of my favorite things about you. So we're going to talk about Anna for a little bit and get into her personal story, which tells us a lot about why she's doing what she's doing. And then we're going to get very granular and talk very specifically about what the cube [00:09:00] is, where you can find it.Who's who was this for a podcast. As people want to go on shows what sort of content you can find there and all of that. So when I was reading through your bio and everything like that, and researching you as I do, I found that your pronouns, you don't have like, he, she, they. You know, whatever you said, anything respectful.And I admire the open-mindedness of that and the flexibility of that, it reminds me a lot of myself because when people ask me who I am, sometimes I like to refer them to the Torah, you know, to the, to the oh, Hebrew scripture when when Moses was first called by God. And he had his slippers off on the side of the mountain and God was in the burning Bush.And Moses was like, God, who is you? Who are you? He was trying to put God in a box and figure out how shall I, what can, what can, how can I associate you with what I already know? Okay. And God told him, bitch, I am that I am. [00:10:00] And that's all there is to it. Anna: Yes. Is that a quote description? That is, I am what I am and that's really it.Right. Because the point of even. The initiatives around using someone's proper pronouns is about respect. It is about honoring someone's identity, right? And for me, depending on what space I'm in child, ain't no telling what the pronouns is going to be. If I, with my boys, it's just, it is whatever. Right.And then I'm in society and people see me a certain way. And then that's that all I'm saying is with respect to who I am. So anything respectful is what resonates most with me, De'Vannon: right? Because it's in the tone of voice in the spirit behind the words. So you can be like, what a bitch and mean it would love.And you can be like, oh, Hey girl, Amina, what all the painting is and violent as that you could contrive. And when you hate that bitch, and you're like, Hey girl, you [00:11:00] know, that was not really in the word, but isn't the heart behind it. More than anything.Anna: Absolutely cause the shade is real. You can notice the shade.Okay. De'Vannon: At all. Oops. Plaque.Anna: You don't have it, but I see it. Okay. Y'all got it. But I see it. De'Vannon: I keep one in my glove compartment, just in my car, just in case I needed somewhere. And I got several in the house. Anna: So does my wife, Lord, all the De'Vannon: things, speaking of that. Yeah. And your bio, it says you are a daughter, a wife, a sister, and a friend who loves cooking and running.What I wanted to know from you about the wife. How did it feel? I want to know how did it feel to be married? Did you have any struggles and things like that? I don't meet a whole lot of married women. I don't. So talk to me about that whole process. Anna: Yeah, we just celebrated our five-year wedding [00:12:00] anniversary.We've been together for nine years. Just like when I met her, my momma loved there. Okay. And I don't like the ideas of, or the statements around, like someone completes me. I was done and completed, but she just adds so much to my life. She's just such a sweet and kind person. And she just fit right in with my family.It was like she had always been there. Everybody embraced her and, and I love her. So she's my best friend. She is the ultimate diva. Okay. She is the most high film woman I have ever dated in my life. But she balances me out and I just love her to pieces. De'Vannon: Yeah. Opposites attract like that. I learned that when I was in my hitting the therapy class, I was training to be a licensed hypnotist, which I am, you know, there's all kinds of signs [00:13:00]behind why quiet, conservative people attract more outgoing people, you know, and vice versa.If you too much alike, you tend to repel each other, you know, to put it simply my boyfriend's the same way. He's quiet. Fucking there. Okay in there, I'm the ones linking from the poles and the chandelier's and hitting the splits. And even now with all of that, you know, showing up, you know, shutting the shit down and everything, and he couldn't even talk.He would, he's not necessarily the most comfortable talking to people in public. You know, when I walk in the bitch, I own the room. Oh, his y'all's belongs to me until I leave this bitch. Anna: Okay. And let me tell you, so I turn it on when a microphone is in front of me, but other than that, I don't have to say a word to anybody.Okay. Yes, my wife is the same way. She walked into a room, she's a stylist. She just takes up space. Okay. Take some space. You came misled. And she also sells, I wear all right. [00:14:00] So the Kia collection.com. So she sells customer. I wear. And so every time she walked into a room, somebody taken something off her face off her risk, won't something.And she is, she's the life of a party.Oh, yeah. The K a collection.com. K a K a Y a K O L L E C T I O N. So the K a collection.com. De'Vannon: Okay. So then I'm like, Hey, yo, collection.com. All right. I'll drop that shit in the show notes, but show ya. I also heard what you said about how you were complete before you met her. This is something I concur with.None of this. This person completes me. I'm lost without you. I can't. Oh that you better know who you are before you get into a relationship with somebody. And a lot of that has to do with just theory, spirituality and shit like that. I think so many relationships in between. People lose [00:15:00] sight of their own individual identity in the whole process.And if you're not in tune with who you are, you're not going to be able to truly cater to that other person. You know, you gotta be whole firstAnna: a hundred percent and let's also be clear. We all been broken, right? So I ain't coming up here. Like I walked, I woke up like this therapy saved my life. Right.Therapy saved my life. We've all had tough and challenging relationships that have taken you all types of places that you never thought you would go. Then at some point you have to like, do some self reflection. Like, is it me? Maybe it's me. And you got to own that. You have to own that. Otherwise you'll continue to date the same person over and over again in a different body with a different sign and all types of stuff.And that was my reality. I had realized that I was dating the same person over and over again. I'm like, what is wrong? And so quickly checked myself into therapy and it saved my life. And so when my wife came into my [00:16:00] life, I didn't need completing. At that point, I was very clear about who I was and who I am.And she was just like the perfect fit into, into my life. So now we have our life with our puppy and grateful. De'Vannon: So when you say you checked yourself into therapy, are you being general in that saying you started seeing a therapist, did you check into a residential. Anna: I'll say it in general. Like I went to start, I started seeing a therapist and I've seen a few over my life and actually it's just about to start seeing a new one.And I think there'll be, is one of these things where you can choose to be in it for a really long time with the same person, but sometimes you even grow out of your therapist. And so sometimes you have to shift and sometimes you don't need it anymore and sometimes you gotta restart it because life would be doing a lot of living.And we just went through what, two years of an airborne panic. And if you listen into this, that means you survived it too. And [00:17:00] so none of us are the same as we were in 2019. There's no way you're the same person. So I think that there's there's seasons. And so I'm in a season where I got a lot going on.So I'm about to go see another therapist and it's just, if you've never done it, it's just a refreshing opportunity to talk to someone who is not fully engaged in your life, but can offer an outside an outside viewpoint that is often not, it's not critical, it's not judging. Right. You find somebody that works with you that you can vibe with, and you'll find yourself lighter after leaving.They're clearer, maybe about something you're struggling with. And for me, it was, it saved my life. De'Vannon: What kind of therapist? A licensed clinical social worker, a Anna: licensed clinical social worker and a black woman. De'Vannon: I find the LCSW to be [00:18:00] more like down to earth, then send like a psychologist, cause an LCSW is not prescribing medication.So they're actually the only way they can help you is through the words and the talking and the exercises and the practices. They, they, they give you to take home. I see an LCSW. I see a licensed marriage and family therapist together with my boyfriend together for, I don't know, 2, 3, 4 years, some shit I don't keep up with the damn time.You have to ask him I'm bad with birthdays and just general time, because I, I view things more eternal. You know, I don't believe in time constraints. It always has existed and always will in a way. And so And then I see my hypnotherapists individually and I love hypnotherapy because of how focused it is and how it gets into the subconscious and how you rip out what you don't want.You speak back to your open, vulnerable mind, which you do want. And so I particularly use that to help me stay off of [00:19:00] drugs. And so all. So that is our plug for mental health, because we know that it's something that's lacking in both the color community and in the gay community. It is not a straight a strike to your pride.If you want to go talk to somebody about getting help, there's many different types of therapists. That's why I asked her that if you go to one therapist and they're a fucking piece of shit, then fuck that hell you go to somebody else. Maybe you need a different type of therapy. There's all sorts of new age, metaphysical shit out there, getting the therapy Stella constellations all kinds of mind, body, soul meditation, shit.If you don't want to do traditional therapist, you can therapy. You can do the shit off his own. Now there's all kinds of shit. So whatever it is you think mental health is if you have a bad taste in your mouth about it I asked you to revisit it and take a second look at it. Because again, I said, we all had been fucked.You know, and so you need help to get unfucked up and to get an objective perspective. So you [00:20:00] don't keep getting fucked up relationships and sabotaging yourself. So just humble yourself down and go get some help, baby. And look, no one has to know, these therapists are bound by confidentiality, so it's not like they can go put it on social media that you were in treatment, or they would get their license taken and probably go to jail.So it's a secret, nobody. Nobody nobody has to Anna: know that's right. And may is mental health awareness month. So there is so much information out here right now in promoting and making awareness, you know, mental health awareness, I think this month. So you just one Google search. De'Vannon: Just one Google search away.So a quote that you had it says is your favorite pro. You said at first they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you, then you win. And that was by Gandhi. Tell me what this quote means to you.[00:21:00]Anna: And that you can't be waiting for people to validate who you are or validate your idea or validate what you call to do. It is not about that. You know, people gonna go along for the ride, you have to be clear about what you want to do. And I think that along the way, you're going to encounter different people.You know, I'm building a business. I don't come from a whole lot. I come from a whole lot of love. And so, but we got a lot of things and a lot of people, I talked to a lot of asks and the requests, I take a lot of leaps of faith. I have to keep practicing my faith muscle and building up my face muscle and what it means to take risks.And along the way, I'm going to run into people that don't agree with me, who don't believe what I'm in, what I'm doing, who don't see a market for it, who don't see a need for it. And honestly, like when we make it, that's when everybody want to be down. So for me, that quote by Gandhi just resonates a lot with what it means to be on the journey.And not, and for me, it's [00:22:00] not caring so much about the destination because to your point, like, I feel like things just will continue to be, but it's about enjoying the journey. And that quote reminds me that it's a journey that is not just going to be one thing or another thing. It's all of things, De'Vannon: all of them each and every last one of them.I love the friction that comes along. When w when people would try to repel us, though, I believe it helps to meet tourists. And it helps to refine us like when a moth or a butterfly. It's trying to crawl a lot of that Chrysalis after they'd been a caterpillar, you know, that struggle helps to release the, you know, the blood flow in whatever juices are in their little furry bodies to expand their wings.You know, that that struggle is needed. They can not become what they are to be without the problems. And, you know, and so I'm thankful for all the Karens for all the church, people who told us we had to get out, you know, and, and everything like that. For [00:23:00] the people who told us since we were black, we can't, we can't stay there.And stuff like that. When I read that, I thought about how I got kicked out of Lakewood church in Houston, Texas for not being straight, you know, but eventually I'm going to get the victory over them. Cause you know, I've been there when they kicked me out. This was like 2008, 2009. And I just finished my book and I went into great detail about how I felt about all of that.It took me over 10 years, but I finally clapped. I finally clapped the back. And so I will win. Yes, Anna: you are winning. You are winning. You've already won. The victory is yours. You're already, De'Vannon: they may in an amen. Okay. So then I'm just curious about, what do you think some of the top issues are facing just the lesbian community today?Hmm. [00:24:00] And why are you thinking about that? I noticed some of your top lives being moments when I was researching you. I would agree with queen Latifa from set it off. Anna: Yes, honey. That is number one of all time. You know what? I would argue anybody down and say that ain't the number one black lesbian moment in film, because.She was studied out in and go, okay, let dances. It was everything. Okay. It's a freaking classic acquaint. Lindsey foot is number one and she ain't even have to be out she out now, but she ain't going to have to be out. She is out to us anyway. So that was actually a really fun video to do. And I'll probably do another one because so many people rode in some of their favorite black lesbian moments that I had not even thought about again, or that people didn't tell me about because I asked my friends.So for example Lena commented, Lena [00:25:00] wave comments. And then she was like, what about when Tasha was on, came out on the L word? And I was like, dang, that was a pivotal moment because L where had been so white up until that point and it Tasha show up and just wreck the crew. And I was just like, Hey you.Right. So I'll probably do another video. But I think, I think for lesbians, some of the major challenges is still representation. And I think there is a lot of invisibility happening with lesbians. So there's a, there's a podcast called cruising, which on this podcast and but there's a podcast called cruising and they have like three lesbians going across the country and they are going to all of the last lesbian bars.And so there's 60,000 bars across the country and there's only 25 lesbian bars, 25 lesbian owned bars across the whole country. And so they did a whole podcast traveling around the country and visiting these bars. [00:26:00] So I think that there is a great need for visibility of lesbians. Not only in media, but just in life in general, you know?And I think lesbians often can kind of get lost in the south. So similar to how people feel like there's some invincibility with, by bisexuals in the community right now, I think, you know, a lot of trans folks get a lot of press because there is a political onslaught happening from right wing conservatives politically.And it doesn't mention, you know, gay folks or lesbian folks or bisexual folks it's specifically mentioned trans folks, you know, and I think that there's some, there's a definitely a sector of lesbians who feel like they have been left behind often also because we use the word queer these days and no one really uses the word lesbian.So I know that there's some lesbians out there that just feel like they've been left [00:27:00]somewhere in the eighties and. I think it's a, I think it's a challenge for them in that respect with all that being said, if one of our alphabet mafia is as you put it, okay, it's being attacked. Then we all being attacked.If we all don't have freedom, then none of us have freedom. So I think that some of what I hear as lesbian concerns, you know, aren't really concerns at all. I think it is fear. And I think that when our trans fam is experiencing right now, what they are experiencing right now affects every single last one of us.De'Vannon: So when you say someone says there's a lesbian concern and it's not really a concern, it sounds like you're speaking about hate and ignorance. Anna: Well, it might be a problem for them. It's not a problem for me. I think [00:28:00] that. I think it's just people being who they are.And I think that there, I think that people evolve and I think that terms evolve. And so I think there are people who are lesbians, who identify with a very strict definition of what it means to be a lesbian. I think there's people who identify with the very strict definition of what it means to be, get men who love men and women who love women.Like these are various particular definitions like that is it. And that is all right. That we're coming upon a time. I felt like we were living in a time where there is sexual fluidity and so forth, and I can speak for myself and I statements are so helpful in these moments. It's like I came out as a lesbian, but at the end of the day today, I identify as queer because child, I love a lot of things.Okay. And it's not just, it's not just women or assists women. Okay. It's just not. And so I needed an expansive word. I needed an expansive definition outside of [00:29:00] lesbian to identify with. So I think that I think oftentimes people get. And what they always known or anything like or stuff like that.But at the end of the day, things evolve, people evolve terms, evolve, communities evolve. And I also think that if there is one major issue affecting lesbians today, it is just continues to be a lack of representation and visibility, especially for masculine scent and lesbians. I mean, fam lesbians, they, their level of Ms.Visibility is a whole nother story, right? I've I've had films. Tell me, like, I intentionally date, you know, masculine of center women. So people know that I am a lesbian. I don't want you to think I'm straight, you know? And for masculine of center women, there is a, there is an appearance that out you, when you walk out the house.So you know, [00:30:00] visibility on a grander scale is still not there, even though there's a different level of acceptance. I believe four lesbians than there are even for gay men. I think gay men have a whole other struggle that around masculinity, especially in this country, that it's just really different than the lesbian experience.I've talked about. A friend I grew up with a gay guy who was very flamboyant, right? We was cool. He had to come to school with a knife right in his shoe. He never left home without a knife. And underneath the sole of his shoe, that was not my story. I never felt unsafe. He always felt unsafe. And I think at the core of it, I mean, there's so much to be said around the differences between a male identified experience and a woman identified experience within the LGBTQ community.De'Vannon: Let's talk about these experiences in the church. So in researching you, there is some Lutheran Baptist. History [00:31:00] here. Talk to us about how you grew up in cherish. Anna: Ah, man, my mama and my daddy met at church. So my dad has been a teacher for 40 years and he was teaching at teaching at a private Lutheran school where my mom had enrolled my sister.So my sister is 17 years older than me. And so my mom rolled my sister there and then they started a love affair in which they had to keep on, on the low, because the teachers weren't supposed to be thanking the parents, the parents were supposed to be dating the teacher's child, but in a way,and let me tell you, 40 years later, they still at the same church. Okay. So. They landed at a black Lutheran church on the south side of Chicago. And so that's where I grew up, but my dad's side of the family started a missionary Baptist church also on the south side of Chicago. So I would often have two Easter speeches.Okay. I, we would often end up going to two different churches on Sundays. Cause my family was at that church, [00:32:00] my uncles, my aunts, my grandma. I mean, everybody was that Christian Love missionary Baptist church. Right. And so we would, you know, time's always different to, with black church. So Lutherans start at a bright and early 10:00 AM.Okay. And we was done in 60 minutes, strong, maybe 75 on communion. Sunday Baptist church was just getting started about 11 and praise and worship. 30 minutes. And so by the time we get that, we still at the beginning of the service, so it would a lot more shouting to go. So it was definitely two very different religious experiences growing up too, which I think just kinda tells a lot about my life in general.The dichotomies. I'll be one place at one moment and be in total different place in the moment. Another moment, you know, I could be at some highfalutin place one moment, and then I could be in the projects the next moment. All of it [00:33:00] made sense to me for where I was in my life. But church church was a good time.De'Vannon: So you're a preacher's kid. You, you, you say that would explain why you are freaking, you call yourself queer into all things. You have them PKS. I'm pretty freaky deaky. Anna: We get into some things, we get into some things and they'll see it. My dad. So he's a deacon, but at the end of the day, he could preach anywhere and he does preach all the time.And. He just for Lutherans, you got a lot of rules, regulations. And so he never went back to get that final piece, but he has his master's in divinity and all this stuff. So, yeah. Child, Sundays, Wednesdays, Saturdays, and church. De'Vannon: Yeah, that's awesome. That's how I was growing up. Pentecostal Wednesday, you know, Bible ban this night, delivering service this night and the other service [00:34:00] that night when I was at Lakewood, I was there four nights a week, choir practice, Tuesday night, Wednesday night, kids worship leading and teaching Saturday night kids, life choir, Sunday choir.I think, I think we get like addicted to church before we realized we are Anna: Church is a big part, right? If you grew up in the church, it's a big part of your identity. It's your community, it's your family and my home church where my parents still go is home. They have always loved me, always embracing me.I've never been anything that I'm not there, but I have my own thoughts around religion and religious organization. So joining the Missouri Senate is not an option for me because they don't see me as a whole person. So for me, it goes beyond the church. It's about the religious organization, right. [00:35:00] But it defined so much.And that's why when queer folks get rejected from church, It is incredibly impactful and can really damage and cause harm because the first couple of places you learn how to love is at home and at church. And that's often times the two places you spend the most time. And so when one, or both turn their back on you as a human being, you are not the same person you were before.It can, it, it leads you down a path that it, it destroys you period. Point blank. It destroys you, you know, and a lot of my work over the years has been around dismantling that and telling the truth about it. That Jesus never said one thing about gay people, not one, Jesus never said it. Now. I just, these clapper scriptures and everything else, I mean, The Bible is meant to be interpreted.It's meant to be [00:36:00] understood. It's meant to be put into context and the way folks have picked and chosen what they want to and who they want to damn to Hale is, is the most unlocked ungodlike thing they can absolutely ever do. And back in the day, I did this project with this organization called church, was in a church where we did a video 30 day release them to do video every 30 days called my God is not a bully to just emphasize that point that God is not bullying anybody.It's the people in the pulpit that are, and their lack of interpretation of scripture and in context of strip scripture. So The church means a lot to me actually is part of the Q we are releasing our own content as part of the queue and to, and one of our podcasts first podcast is called second Sunday.And I cannot wait for y'all to hear this podcast [00:37:00] because it's talking about the intersections of being black queer and in the church. And we had the opportunity to interview a lot of black queer theologians, lay people musicians for this podcast and the things that they share a child, it's just, it humanizes an experience that gets polarized a lot.And I hope I hope folks can get seen through this work. De'Vannon: Yeah. I was at a graduate at the Houston graduate school of theology and he of course, Euston, Texas, but I was going to get a master's of divinity as well. When you said that it, it popped out my ears, but I, I left that bitch. I broke up, I broke up and that bitch, when the, when the law professor said that, that they like to control people in church.And so that was like, well, I didn't come here to dominate motherfuckers, so I'll be going now. And so let me get more, I want to get more granular [00:38:00] with your per perspective. Cause I watched that video. One of the, one of the God is not a bully and I agree with what you're saying and it's at the epicenter of my message to people.I preach spiritual independence and people getting close to God on their own without a church or with one. But if you're going to have a church, remember that it's second to God. And so You bring up. Okay. So you're talking about like how the people are using the scripture to throw shade at people who are unlike them.It, how. Scriptural interpretation is very subjective and it is, everybody can read the Bible and come out of it with what they want. It's clearly not an easy to understand book because if it was simple to interpret, then you wouldn't need a thousand different translations of it. And so, I mean, And so since people are indoctrinated in such a young age, you know, at churches, you, you understand you go there to learn, but critical thinking about what the preacher is saying is not what's taught to you.And [00:39:00] so you're accepting whatever is being said. And by the time you're old enough to know any difference, you've got all of these issues to sort out, and then you feel conflicted about it because you've been told never to disagree with a preacher or a church, but now you like the shit don't make sense though.And so, so we add an out here to tell you that you will not burn up and go to hell for not being straight and to all the straight people. And I mean that loosely, because you never know what the hell people not doing behind closed doors. I didn't fuck so many straight married men and my day is unreal.And so you know, just, just know that while they're trying to use these scriptures over here to condemn you to hell since they want to be so strict about that. The, the Bible and everything. You know, the Bible speaks against getting divorced for any reason, other than infidelity. It speaks against interracial couples and stuff like that, stuff that we're all totally cool with.Now, them people in church got 50,000 divorces. [00:40:00] It all kinds of reasons and all kinds of mixed, mixed racial shit's going on. And I'm cool with all of it. But my whole point is this. If you're going to be such a hard ass about one part, you need to be a hard ass about the whole fucking thing. I don't want to see you eating nothing that divided the hoof.I don't want you getting down with the pig or nothing like that. If you going to be that much of a, of a bitch about it, then follow the whole fucking thing from end to end and not just a P a few slices of. Anna: And that's what they do, right? Those Christians like them, so-called Christians cause they not Christian some so called Christians.You know, they use, they use it for whatever they feel like they want to use it for. And they cause a lot of freaking harm and they're causing harm right now. And now it's entered the political round, you know? And we need more folks like you, we need more projects. I tell queer folks and LGBTQ young people that you'll still love that God still loves you.That your relationship with God is far more important [00:41:00] than whatever this preacher is saying from a pulpit. I also think critical thought is so incredibly important when you understand that there are books missing from the Bible, right? When you understand that, that what you're reading is not the entire Canon, like what are we doing here?People, what are we doing here? And also think it's easy to make God this very angry damning person and being. That was not what God taught at all. That's not what God taught at all. De'Vannon: He's not, he's a God of mercy and grace forgiveness, long suffering, slow to anger, quick, the mercy, quick, the compassion.That's what the scripture say. He's not like man, you know, quick to judge and clobber you and what you speak of about getting kicked out from churches and how it changes you. It's it's, it's what I call being dehumanized. It makes you feel like you're less than a person. And when a church tells you, you have to go.Not because of [00:42:00] something you've done with church has never supposed to tell anyone to go, no matter what, you know, Jesus accepted murderers and everybody. So for a terrace would be like, you can't go because of who you love, which is what Lakewood church did to me. You know, you can't. There, you know, you, that, that, that, that sent me on a downward spiral that ultimately led me into drugs and to drug dealing and to getting hepatitis B and HIV, my choice to do what I do, do what I did, but they certainly would've sparked the set that shit in motion and fuck them.Fuck you wake with church in on repeat, if we can dub stuff, that shit, then the video you also said. You, you made a comparison about how, okay. Say like procreation, one of the arguments people use against the non straight community is that God hates what you're doing because when you have sex, you can't, and there's no kid that's gonna come of it.[00:43:00]And then you were like, okay, well they're straight couples that God has prevented them from having children's. It was that because he hates them too. You know, it's not a, you can't apply that sort of a rubric evenly. You can't do it. And then you were also saying, you said something very interesting to me.You said that you wouldn't choose another burden and you were like, I'm already blessed. That's hard enough as it is. Do I really want. Add queer to it and all the problems that come along in this life, in that statement, you're rebutting the stupid shit. Like I heard Joyce Meyer and whoever the fuck else say that, where they think it's a choice, you know, like, like we just, oh, well we'll think we'll be gay today, you know, or some or some stupid shit like that as that is the most overly simplistic, dumb ass shit.These supposedly educated people Anna: say 100%. And I think that that's at the core of it. And I was talking to somebody recently whose child just came out to [00:44:00] them a year or so ago. And I was just like, you know, We have to start the conversation at choice with choice, because if you believe what I'm doing is a choice, then we're not going to get very far because at the heart of homophobia, is this idea that you can change.Hence why conversion therapy, right. Has been such a popular way for Christians to change people because you don't think it's a choice because you think it's a choice. But in fact, it's not. In fact, I grew up when my mama put me in bowls and matching ruffle socks. Okay. And doing everything in her power to make, to, to raise a feminine girl.And in fact, I was who I was from the moment I had any say over it. It's just not who I was. And I was very clear about that from a very young age. I was very clear that I was [00:45:00] athletic. Does that make me gay? No, but I was also very clear. I liked wearing my dad's shirts and my dad and I had the same initials and he gets his shirts embroidered with his initials on them.And I wanted to wear his shirts. I was not going to wear my mother's dresses. I didn't want nothing to do with heels. I didn't want to do a pantyhose. It's just, it just wasn't who I was and it's not who I am. And so I think all of these conversations around homophobia and transphobia and hate come around, the idea that who we are is a choice and who we are is not a choice in the same ways who they are, you know innately is not a choice.De'Vannon: That do be facts though, because if there was, they're going to apply that logic, the us, and it has to go in reverse. And I like you when I was two, three years old, I was already playing with Kendall. I was trying to see what was up under his shorts and shit like that. So, but if, but if there's a choice, then when did they kick to be straight?And [00:46:00] then if that's the case, are they confessing that they had homosexual desire at some point, you know, the way they tell it, they'd been straight from the beginning. So if that's the case, you know, it's uneven, but it's like anything else from your favorite food to your favorite color? Life is a thing of discovery.We do not get to put ourselves together like a doll or a made out of Play-Doh. You don't get to go. My favorite color is going to be green. My favorite dish is going to be lobster. My favorite state, I think I'll go with Kentucky. My favorite shoes, I think van sounds nice. You know, you, you get exposed to shit and then you pay attention to what keeps standing out to you.And what keeps drawing you in and then you go, oh, it seems like I'm into the color green or, oh, I think I really, really liked these fucking vans. They represent me. Well, you discover who you are, the beginnings of who you are, is shaped. And when you're in your mother's womb everywhere, she goes, the things she says, the people she talks to, the thing she thinks read, exposes [00:47:00] that child to everything, you cannot separate the two.So you're predisposed to so much before you're even born. So for them fuckers to be like, well, you chose to be gay. I goes again, signs and all logic. And they're just stupid as hell. Anna: Pretty much, pretty much. And what's really unfortunate is, is that I, I see that there can be a differentiation. So let me give you an example.Like you can believe that being queer is wrong, right? You can believe. But that should not equate to me not having the rights as a citizen, within a country that I pay taxes in, if that makes sense. So for me, politics shapes society. So you can think being gay is wrong, but that doesn't mean you have the right to limit my rights, [00:48:00] to control who I love control.If I can get married control, if I can get medical care control with books, I read you not have that type of control in my life. Just because you don't agree with who I am. I don't agree with you being a white, racist, homophobic transphobic person. Right. Right. But I ain't trying to write legislation to kill off your human existence.Right. Because that is exactly the fact of the matter is that what's happening across the country right now is killing. Trans youth, the numbers the suicide hotlines, like the Trevor project, they are outrageous right now, right? People are trying to leave states where they have had homes and families and a legacy because their children can't get the medical care they need.Because now politicians are saying that parents don't know what's best for their own children. How dare you? Just because you don't believe in who I am. [00:49:00] And I think it's just so incredibly contradictory because they don't want anyone telling them who they are or what they should be doing. You know,De'Vannon: if it's any consolation, these people are the hypocrites of our day. You had them in Jesus's time. I agree with what you said earlier, how the Bible is not complete. Some people will say everything you need to know about life it's in the Bible. That's bullshit. It's a general. It's a general guide to help get you close enough to God.So you can talk to him for yourself and then he can fix you and instruct you the rest of the way. But everything is not in there, but these, these Republicans and evangelicals and everything, these are today's hypocrites. Every generation has to have them. There's not going to come a time in this earth until probably the millennial kingdom when Jesus Christ reigns here again, but even, well, I'm not going to say that because even then there's going to be people who don't believe in him in the earth.And so there's always going to be those people who are contradictory, these people [00:50:00] are like how solid the apostle is before you became Paul. The thing is if God doesn't open somebody's eyes to their hypocrisy, then they won't see if you don't up in their ears to hear truth. They won't hear, they won't believe and be converted.Every generation has to have the people who are going to be citizens of hell bound to go to hell. Because if they have humility and love in their heart, they would go to heaven and they would be rugged. You people not going to accidentally end up in hell, you have to be like Pharaoh or somebody and just hardheaded ignoring the signs, not hearing what the people under you are trying to say, not hearing the voice of the people.That's how far was he just would not hear logic and reason because he was so set in his ways and what he wanted to want other people to do. Now, Paul Saul took his ass to the Sanhedrin saying Hedron was a religious council of the day. I think it's like 70 something. My fathers who control shit. It's no [00:51:00] different than legislation.The day, a whole group of motherfuckers who control. You say, I look this Jesus person and come here with his bullshit and these people trying to act like him and we can't be having none of this. So give me some power, some letters and shit. So then go arrest. They asses and beat them and fuck with them and shit beat this Jesus out of the acids.Cause this ain't right. It's on rip up our moral fabric. And this is going to tear our society down because of how they believe. And the Sanhedrin was like, go on, play a gong. Now his way to Damascus Jesus intercepted his bitch ass. And it was like, ah, ah, ah, ah, what you doing? You need to stop this shit because I did not send you scripturally speaking.He said, Saul saw, why, why are you persecuting me? It's hard for you to kick against the pricks. And so what do we have here? Somebody who said those people over there, I don't like what they doing. So let me in and enact laws to change them. And the Lord said, I don't want [00:52:00] you to do that. That, that is the what the whole beginning of that, that part of the book of acts is about Jesus Christ.Being against using the law to co Eris people to behave differently. It was right there yet. When those people, the people of our day, the hypocrites, the Republicans, evangelicals, if they even read they dusty ass Bibles, I don't see how they can. And when they read the Bible, they, they read it to find not what's wrong with other people.They are right there. But when they killed Steve and I'm going to say this and shut the hell up, but this is a hot button for both of us when they killed even the one who said to me, the first martyr, he read the religious people for Phil, and he told them, you motherfuckers are the same people who kill the prophets and everything like that.While you sitting up here trying to judge me that he, it was a whole long chapter in acts. And then they stoned him to death and everything like that. So these things must be so, Anna: and I think so, [00:53:00] Chad, you just said so much, there's so much to say. I think, I think at the heart of it also is that the theology, like your own spiritual connection to God is, can be so expansive.So the, to your point, right, the Bible is one thing. But then, right. Christians will tell you that all these, you shouldn't even explore these other religions. They can't give you nothing. Like, no, you can't get nothing out of nothing out of these, none of these other spaces. And I think to myself, like I thought God created everything.I thought God created everything. And if God created everything and God is in everything. And and I find myself having a very expansive worldview about God and my beliefs, like, so. Growing up. You're taught that if someone commits suicide, they go into hell. [00:54:00] And then now I was thinking, and then as I grew up, I was like, why would God send anybody to hell for committing suicide?And where does it say that in the Bible? And it doesn't right. We're just fed these. We fed these things out of fear to control you to not commit suicide, but who in the world told you that? When I think about the, the, the, the preachers and spiritual teachings that like folks around the world, anyone who doesn't call Jesus by name as their Lord and savior is going to go to hell, how is that possible?When there's people in the other countries, in the world who don't even know who Jesus is. So you're telling me that this God of love is going to send somebody who had an opportunity to get to know who, who Jesus was. That doesn't make any sense to me. And I think that. When for me, because of my sexual identity, it caused me to have to question a whole hell of a lot of stuff.Definitions of [00:55:00] what heaven heaven is, definitions of what hail is, definitions of who's going, and who's not, you begin to question all of it. And for me, when it boils down, I love it. When my mom says this to people about me. When she would tell me this all the time, she'd be like, have you read your 10 commandments recently?I don't see nothing in there about God, about gay people, you know? But I see a whole lot of other stuff that applies to you. Hello. So my mom, you know, she got to the point where she was empowered enough to, you know, stand up and say something and speak out about that. And I think that we need more people to do just that.Cause they ain't gonna say it to me. They gonna say it to their friend who they think agreed with them, you know? So. I just think we have a long way to go to the, understand what it means to, to embody and to embody a godlike existence, because it has so much [00:56:00] more to do with love and choice than anything else.De'Vannon: I was like you a very well said girl. I was like you very confused and conflicted about myself because of what the church said. They only gave me peace with learning, how to read the scripture for myself. I went back to the original Greek Hebrew and Aramaic the original, the Bible and discovered it for myself, what I want people to do, because any translation you read king James, a message or whatever, the living Bible, those are all other people's translations.That's not the actual original language. Instead, if you want the true truth, then you got to go back to the source. You got to go back to the original languages of the net and you get. Somebody else's version Anna: that end. You have to I think you gotta find your own practice. So you have to find what that practice looks like for you.Especially when you feel disconnected from church, because church was a practice Sunday, Saturday, Wednesday, however many times a [00:57:00] week, that was a practice. So as if you feel yourself pulling away from that, that you have to figure out what your practice look like. And so today, like my practice looks like me being in my prayer corner in the mornings, but my affirmation books with my journals, with my candle, with my music, with pictures of my family, like for me growing up, like it is being grounded in quiet and close to God in those moments.And that's my, that's my practice today. And I feel closer to God than I ever have. I see signs all the time. I think numerology is real. Like if something profound happens, I'm like, what time is it? I think, I think there's so many ways to connect with God. And when you choose to close yourself off to all the possibilities and all the possibilities of who God is, you will miss her.You going to miss, you're going to miss her. You gonna miss her. That's it.[00:58:00]De'Vannon: Let me see here. So we wanted to talk about the cube. As we begin to wrap it up, I'm going to read your favorite quote by Shirley Chisholm believes you better than she was the first black woman to put in a bid to be a presidential nominated back in the seventies and her eyeglass, a tiny her frame game was on point yes and date match for the gods date.And she said, if they don't give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair. You go on to say in your it says in your, in your, in your website, you know, we bought our folding chairs and there hasn't been any equity to be found at those tables. It's time for us to build our own tables and our own chairs to this space and model the change we want to see in the world of podcasting.Anna: Yes. All of that. So I love Shirley chill. I love [00:59:00] everything. She's still fought. She she's made a lot of things possible and she had to bring her folding chair. Okay. She had to, they weren't inviting her to no tables. She had to bring a folding chair, but because of the work that she did and in fact that we can stand on the shoulders of so many other incredible, incredible people of history from Ella baker to Angela Davis, to Coretta Scott King, Utah, I mean, Elaine brown, I can go on and on.We can build our own tables. We don't have to wait on anyone to do anything for us. Should apple be more inclusive? Yes. Should Spotify be more inclusive? Yes, they should. But it is not about what they should do because capitalism rules this country. So if it's not, if it doesn't make money, it doesn't make sense in so many ways in that world, but we have an opportunity to do something different.[01:00:00]And I think we have an opportunity to shape, especially the podcasting space, because I feel like it's still very much so a new medium, I believe it's coming into its own after 20 years. And that's why I like new it's like, so it's such a funny thing to say because it's been 20 years, but for so many people, they are just really getting into what it could mean to listen to a podcast.And we can shape what we want this world to see. And I wanted to see more diverse. I want to see more people like me and I wasn't finding them. And so the cube will be that there'll be the one and only curated destination of music and podcasts by BiPAP and QT POC folks. And the music is powered by our radio station.Ethan. Which plays queer music and reports on queer news and high rotation specifically at the intersections of race and sexuality. So there's so many queer artists out here doing their thing, and you don't hear about them. [01:01:00] There's so many of them making good music. I got one of my favorite inspirational artists is a black queer woman who was on Sunday.Best Maya be you know, her, you know, like they deserve a space to be. And then there's like, dope podcasts is like, you whole deserve to be seen who to serve more visibility, more amplification of your work. And I think we can do it. And matter of fact, I know we can do it. We are doing it. And I think we can do it really, really well.So it's going to be an app or in development. My goal. My hope is that we are dropping beta in July and totally out to the public. By September of this year, we've accepted 94 podcasts into the app. We've got a team of folks listening to every single piece of podcast content, because we want the best pod-casters inside of our app.I want the best because there's a lot of poor Lee produced podcasts in the market. People who [01:02:00] sound like they got the iPhone on top of the roof on a fourth bottle of wine. Okay. And you know, that's okay. That's okay. You can do that. You got something to say and you better go say it. Okay. But they don't have to be what's in my ears.It doesn't have to be what's inside this app. I want it to have to be where the best reside and that's what resonates with me. And that's what we're building. De'Vannon: Yeah. I was listening to somebody, his podcasts earlier, who's trying to come on my show and be a guest. And I was like, God, I can't hear what you're saying.You sound muffled. Yes. Out there. So I thank you for your compliments. Just all the sex, drugs and jingles podcast has been accepted into the cube. So our clients, our quality is on point enough for these standards. And so. I'm going to read it a little bit further. So it says the cube is majority owned by a black queer woman and co-founded by three black LGBTQ persons.The cube will be a centralized [01:03:00] destination for discovery of BiPAP and QT pop music and podcasts. Tell us what the BiPAP and QT pox Anna: fans. Absolutely BiPAP is black indigenous people of color. And I choose to say BiPAP because I leave with my blackness. And so I choose to say black indigenous people of color.And then I choose to identify queer trans people of color specifically, even though we inside the BiPAP, we in there. But I think it's important for queer folks to know that I'm talking about that, that this platform is also for them, that I want to be able to center and amplify their work as well. And so that's why I, I include QT POC into the narrative now is my marketing team happy about that?No. Okay. It's a lot of words. It's a lot of acronyms people don't know what the heck I'm talking about, but the people, the people who know know. Right. And so, you know, at the end of the day I'm in this accelerator right now with Google, which is [01:04:00] really dope. It's the Google for startups like founders academy.And one of the mentors was like, I need five words, five words to describe your business. You should be able to describe your business in five words. And I was like, God, dang it. And so I came up with discover, discover the best bi-pod podcast. Right. If I had to describe it in five words, discover the best BiPAP podcast is what I came up with.And so that's what it all means. At the end of the day. It's about discovery. You will, will be able to listen to these podcasts inside of the app. And I hope people would choose to do that as well. There's an opportunity for Uproxx to tip their creators from within the app and that money would go straight to those creators.And I'm excited about that. The moment we get enough users, we'll be able to roll out an ad revenue sharing program, right? So we could put more money into creatives pockets who do want to make money from advertising. And, you know, I think we just continue to build this platform in this [01:05:00] space for folks to discover some of the amazing ways that black, brown, and queer folks of color show up in the world.And I think podcasting is a space that people are choosing to share their experiences with the world the same way you share yours. You know? I think there's a, there's a, I know there's a lot of people doing that and you just can't find them. De'Vannon: Up until now, because now Anna: you got the keyDe'Vannon: cue, baby. Yeah.All right. So just any last words you have for the world, any community, whatever you want to say, you can say, what the fuck you feel? Anna: I love it. I love, I can say whatever the fuck I feel.I feel like we're in. I feel like we're in a moment right now. So I, I feel like we've survived a pandemic and it feels like the world is restarting in some ways. [01:06:00] And I feel like we've got an opportunity here to change the way. We do media and podcasting has a way, has an opportunity to show folks how to do media collaboration.Right? I think we can show what it means to be a community inside of a media industry. I think podcasting has an opportunity to do it differently than what and how things have been done in the past. And so I hope that I, I hope that I can be part of that change. There are so many amazing people in this space doing amazing work, our partners.And my hope is that I can amplify them as well. So when we talk about the black podcast association, when I think about the women of color association, when I think about the

Topher Morrison has tips aplenty when it comes to authors getting booked to speak and it makes sense: he is, after all, the founder of Personofi, a firm that specializes in brand messaging for small business owners. He is the author of four best-selling books and was voted one of the top 10 business speakers in Tampa Bay. His extensive speaking career, spanning over the past 30 years, has earned him a global reputation as an expert in mass communication and influence. He has spoken for top execs with American Express, Microsoft and Google, just to name a few. In this episode, he shared so many gems I'd never heard before—including where authors who have never spoken before can get experience for a reel, the importance of a one-sheet, how to make a book into a speech by using the vignettes in it, why the opening of the speech should not be the same as your first chapter and how to sell your book while speaking without sounding like a douche. WANT 7 DAYS OF WRITING TIPS? GO TO WWW.YOURBOOKWRITINGTIPS.COM TRANSCRIPT: Anna: Okay Topher, thank you so much for coming to chat with me today. Topher: I am stoked. It's been first off way too long since we've chatted anyway. When did we meet each other, 10 years ago, maybe longer? Anna: Hold on. It wasn't quite 10 years ago, but this is sort of an awesome thing. I was thinking about it because there's a comedian that I used to know pretty well and I haven't seen him since then. I think it was John Heffron, right? Topher: John Heffron. We are still good buds. Yes. That's how I met you. Anna: But I think what happened is I saw him tweet about you. Or he told me directly. He said, "I know this guy, I work with this guy who's the best speaking coach." And I reach out to you and you were so sweet. And you said, "I'm going to be in LA. I'll just work with you." Or maybe you even said, "I'll come to LA." Topher: I can't remember. Anna: And I remember because I had this office at WeWork and you worked with me and you really helped me restructure a talk that I had and deliver it. And you are just such a sweet, sweet person and so good at what you do. Topher: Thanks. Anna: I'm really happy that you're here to talk about something I've never talked about on the podcast and my listeners are very much interested in, which is how do you convert a book into a talk? And how do you use the fact that you're an author to get booked as a speaker? So let's actually do it backward. Because as I always say, if there are two people that a booker is considering, and they're equal, but one has a book, they're always going to book the author. Tell me about that. Topher: Every single time they will pick the published author over the unpublished author even if the other speaker is a better speaker and has a better demo reel and is more entertaining. They will almost always, I guess I should probably preserve that, not be so hyperbolic, but they will almost always pick the author. Because there is this perceived notion in society that authors are experts. And that's probably rightly earned as well. At least if it's a good book, they probably are an expert in it and they took a long time, you know, you've written a book, it ain't easy. It's hard. So by the time somebody's gone through all that process, they are probably an expert. But it's a false assumption, but it is a societal assumption that the authors are the experts. Yeah. Anna: Yes. It's why we do what we do. Because a lot of our clients are experts, but nobody knows that because they've sort of been working towards their expertise, doing their 10,000 hours of work, and they need that book to show the world. Topher: Yeah, they're working on their craft. They're the world's best-kept secret because they're an expert in it and they are bonafide phenomenal and they don't have the book. And there's just no social proof. In fact, the scary part is that, especially in today's society, because publishing has become such a mainstream thing, nowadays the question people get is, "Have you written a book?" And you know, if somebody ever asked you, "Well, do you have any books? Have you written any book on it?" you know you're six months or a year behind if people are asking if you have a book and you don't. You definitely want to have one, no doubt about it. And the only anything better than having one is having two or three or four. Anna: Or eight like me, right. Topher: Yeah. Ooh. Anna: And, oftentimes bookers are quite excited to have a signing. So I think that that's... And/or a lot of speakers will gift their book or they'll say basically, "Hey, if you buy 200 copies, you don't have to pay me." Tell me a little bit about how that works. Topher: Yeah. So there are several different packages that you can offer as a speaker when you have a book, which is just what you just said. You have your speaking fee and then you will gift a certain number of books. Or you could have bought my book and I will speak for free. And something people might say, "Well, why is that important?" Because the monies to buy the books come out of a different account than the money to pay the speakers in large corporations. So they may have already blown their budget on their conference for their speakers, but yet they still have money in their budget for swag bags. And by the way, that's a great way to say, "We'll get the books in time for you to put them in your swag bags," and they love that as well. So it comes out of a different purse. And so, while you may have a budget that you have to stay within the speaker fees, the book fees could be added. And it's just a great way for you to have more flexibility and still get maximum dollars from that event. Anna: That's so interesting. I've never thought about that. And then, of course, if you have a business and let's say you one client is worth anywhere from a thousand dollars to a hundred thousand dollars, it is well worth the investment in the $3 a book or whatever it's going to cost for you to gift that. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Although, definitely don't gift it first, sell it first. And then if they don't buy, then go down to hard costs. And then if they don't buy, then you can gift. Start off with the price that makes you the most amount of money, obviously. Because like I said, sometimes these big corporations don't bat an eye. Remember this, the one thing I love to tell people when they're thinking about charging their speaking fees and like, "Oh, how much is the right fee and blah, blah, blah, blah," remember that the bar tab at a conference for a large corporation will outweigh your speaking fee by at least five times, at least five times. Just keep that in mind. It may seem like a big fee for us when we charge it. It is a drop in the bucket for these large corporations that are hosting and spending $300,000, a half million, $2 million, $10 million on their annual conferences. A $10,000 or a $20,000 speaking fee is nothing for these companies. Anna: Let's say I'm a first-time author. And my book, maybe I feel, because I hear people say this, not qualified to be an expert, even though I have all this hard-earned personal experience, but I don't have a master's degree or I don't have whatever, and I go, "Okay, I want to be a speaker." How do I start? Topher: Okay. And you don't have a book or you do have a book? Anna: You do have a book. You have your first book and you're like, "Okay, here we go with speaking. What do I do?" Topher: Perfect. Well, at the risk of sounding self-promotional, hire a speaking coach for one, because you could have the best information in the world and if you don't know how to present it in a palatable way, they're never going to book you back. So you absolutely want to do that. And by the way, you should probably get a media coach as well, because you're going to be asked to speak on TV or on the radio. And if you've never been in front of a camera or you've never had a microphone shoved in front of your face, it can be quite intimidating. Anna, you know this. You've done this for years. So for you, it's second nature. But if you can recall back to that first time you were on the bright lights in the camera, it's unnerving, right? And so you could have all the... The natural law of memory, it is inhibited when you are relaxed. It is enhanced when you're relaxed, it's inhibited when you're stressed. And nothing can cause more stress to a new time author than is the first time they're on a show. You could forget your damn name when you're on TV. So hire a media coach for sure or a speech coach. Topher: But beyond that, and I'm not trying to push my services either, I'm really not. What I'm saying, though, is that the delivery is as important as the knowledge. And that's the point that I want to make. Absolutely. Yeah. So you want to make sure you have that. Then once you do that, so the question is you're a new time... You want to break into the speaking gig, you need to have a one-sheet. It is the most important marketing piece for a speaker. It's more important than a sizzle reel, by the way, is the one sheet. The one-sheet is exactly what it sounds like. It's one piece of paper. It probably has your picture. It has your brief bio. It has a highlight of what you are going to learn in the keynote or one of the takeaways that the audience will get. And it probably has some quotes from people that are impressed by you that have some name notoriety that people if they were to see those quotes who go, "Well, if this person's saying they're good, they must be amazing." That's really all it is. Topher: And oftentimes, the one-sheet will make a bigger impact than the sizzle reel. Because the sizzle reel requires a computer to watch. And keep in mind, sometimes these board meetings where you've got the planner and you've got the board and they're all sitting around, they don't have time to sit there and watch 15 different speaker reels. So you're lucky if they'll watch it. They probably won't. What they're going to do is they're going to refer to the person who found you, who's [inaudible 00:09:02] and saying, "Hey, this is a great speaker. Here's their one sheet." And they look at it and they go, "Yeah, they look like they're smart. I like the photo. It was a professional headshot. It doesn't look like it's a stupid selfie." By the way, also be sure that you're investing in a good professional one sheet. And it just gives a quick highlight. That's oftentimes all they make the decision. They don't need to see the sizzle reel. Anna: I'm curious, so they'll book speakers without seeing how they speak. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. It depends. If you were referred to them, almost always they don't need to see the sizzle reel. If you're the one knocking on their door, doing the Oliver Twist, "Please sir, may I have a cup of porridge," then yeah, you might need to get them to watch the sizzle reel to know that you're good. But for the most part, you want to get your message out to as many people as possible so people who are on those committees hear about you and then they come to the committee and they go, "Oh my God, I saw this person on YouTube," or, "I saw this person on a podcast," or, "I heard this person on a podcast. They were amazing. I think they'd be great for our presentation." It can literally boil down to that. And they're like, "Yeah, good. Let's get them booked." Anna: Okay, but so then, and I remember how I solved this, here's the problem, you go, "Okay, I want to get booked. I don't have a sizzle reel because I've never spoken." So how do you get around that? Topher: Okay. Well, there are a couple of things. Nowadays, at the risk of aging myself, back in my day, it was hard to get video production. But nowadays, for crying out loud, you've got a 4k camera on your phone. You can set something up. It doesn't have to matter. Have a small event at your house if you have to, invite some people over. If you don't have a nice house, go to your friend's house who's got a nice house, I don't care. And do a quick presentation. Have it set up. The only thing that I'd recommend is that if you're going to set up an iPhone or a smartphone, don't use the microphone. As powerful as phones are in their high definition, 4k recording quality, they still suck when it comes to the recording of audio. So go get one... Nowadays, by the way, it used to be like an $800 lapel mic you'd have to get, nowadays, you can get it for 50 bucks, you can get these wireless lapel mics that plug right into your phone, you clip them, and the sound is just impeccable. It's beautiful. And just do something like that just so they know that when you get up in front of people, you're not going to stumble and fall and make a fool of yourself. It can literally be something as unofficial as that. Topher: But also, it's not that hard to get booked to speak nowadays. There are so many organizations from One Million Cups up to your chambers of commerce, all of the animal clubs, the Elks, the Moose, the Eagles, whatever. Those people are starving for speakers to come in. And just reach out to all of the local chapters, all of the local organizations that are in some level of professionalism and just say, "Hey, you know what? I've just published my first book. It's on this topic. And I think that your audience might benefit from it. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm just trying to get some exposure and some experience speaking in front of the stage. I would love to come out to your group and give them a 20 minute or a 30 minute or a 15-minute presentation," whatever it is that your keynote is, "And there's no catch. There's no sales pitch. I just want permission to record it so I can improve and do better later." And honestly, you could book yourself up a month straight with local chapters for organizations that are just looking for people to come out and speak to their audiences. Anna: That's an amazing, amazing tip. So let's say I have my book. How do I make my book into a speech? Topher: Okay. Remind me, by the way, before we get off this call, to share with your listeners some techniques on how to sell the hell out of their books when they speak without being a salesy, douche-baggy guy. So remind me to do that. Anna: Love it. Topher: So what your question was, how do you turn the book into a speech? So let's first break down what a speech comprises. A speech, the best analogy that I can give, and I'm going to roll credits to this, by the way, to a gentleman by the name of Bill Gove. Now, I did not learn directly from Bill. I learned from his mentee, which is a guy named Steve Seebold, and he's a good friend of mine. And Bill Gove by the way, is kind of like the grandfather of motivational speaking. He is the guy who started it all. All of the great speakers that we admire love today, most of them are trained by this guy named Bill Gove, 30, 40 years ago. And he had it so well. He said, "A keynote speech is nothing but..." I'm paraphrasing his statements here, "A keynote speech is nothing but a concert in spoken word." So you want to have, just like if you were to go to a concert, you want to have your songs rehearsed. You want to be able to know in what order those songs are going to be played. And you want to have practiced those songs so well that if something were to happen on stage, it wouldn't throw your game off. In fact, you could even improvise and play around with that a little bit and make it look like it's effortless. Topher: So think of your speech as a concert in spoken word. And your concert is broken down into short little songs. Yours are vignettes. And a great speech is made up of short little vignettes, no more than five minutes apiece, as short as 30 seconds apiece. And they are stacked together one after another, in whatever order makes the most sense for the flow and the feel of the concert, just like a concert. You want to start off with something dynamic, but not your best hit. You want to start off with something that just kind of warms up the crowd. And then you want to build up. And then at some point in time, you need to slow down and you need to relax and you got to put the ballad on. Because you can't have a concert that's just loud, nonstop. And then after the slow, then you got to build it back up again. And presentations have that same flow. I call it the charisma pattern, by the way, which is that there is a cadence to a presentation, which is you start off at a medium pace, you work up into a louder, faster pace, and then as you get louder and faster, then you drop it down to something slow and soft. Anna: It's interesting because a book, the best, the most effective way to do a memoir is to have your first two chapters be the bottom, the most dramatic, and then you move into childhood so that doesn't... And then you start going chronologically. And then around chapter eight, you catch up to whatever that first chapter was. And that's not what you do with speaking. Topher: No. Yeah. So interestingly enough, the same strategies and skills that make a great book a great book, do not translate into what makes a great presentation. Nor do great strategies and skills as a speaker in a live audience translate to being a great speaker on camera as well. There are differences between all of those things. But there are different environments. I'm glad that you brought that up. It makes a big difference. With the presentation, you don't want to start off with your best. You want to just kind of warm up the crowd a little bit. Because let's face it, they're still sussing you out. If they bought your book, at some level, they're kind of convinced. But remember, buying a book is this person has something I need and I want to hear it. But in a presentation and a keynote, it's completely the opposite. It's, "Who is this yahoo, and why do I have to sit here and listen to them speak?" Totally different market. So you kind of got to win them over. And if you go in too hard, too fast, you're like that guy at the bar who's just hitting on the girls a little bit too fast and too hard. Slow your roll, cowboy. Just bring it down a notch or two. Be cool. Anna: Yeah. You don't walk up and propose. Topher: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe you don't even walk up. Maybe you just sit there and just let them come to you. You got to know your game, right? Anna: Look at that. And so how do you know, do you need 10 anecdotes? How many do you need? Let's say this is a 10-minute speech. Do you need 10 anecdotes? Topher: Sure. Fantastic. Yeah. Listen, if you could do 10, I'll call them vignettes, because that's my language, but an anecdote is the same thing, yep, 10 anecdotes, 10 vignettes in 10 minutes would be an unbelievably awesome speech. Most people are not that well-rehearsed. They could maybe get two to three vignettes out in a 10-minute speech. Only a pro could do 10 in 10 minutes. And I always think back to, and I'm sure you've heard this quote, I believe it was Mark Twain, who said, "I apologize for not writing a shorter speech. I didn't have time." Or something to that effect. I'm sorry it was so long. I didn't have time to write a shorter one, or something like that. Anna: It's been attributed to so many people. Allegedly, it was a note to his wife, and who knows who he is. And it said, "I wanted to write you a short note. I wanted to..." Oh, you know. Yeah. That basically it's harder to do short than it is long is the point. Topher: Yeah, yeah. You get the idea. Same thing with the presentation. If I just wanted to tell some ideas and I didn't have them rehearsed, I would ramble on and on, I would get derailed, I would come back and I would be disheveled. And I would be like, "La, la, la, la." But on a keynote, you cannot do that. You have to have everything you're going to say rehearsed and prepared so you know how to do it. Now, the question is how many vignettes do I need for an amount of time? What I would say to that is this, it's not so much how many vignettes for a certain amount of time, it's just that do you know how much time each vignette takes? Topher: So create a vignette book with all the different stories that you have. And by the way, go into your book. This is back to your original question, how do you convert a book into a keynote? You take the best stories in your book. You bring them out of the book and you say, "Okay, what are the lessons or the big takeaways that this story in my book reveals?" And by the way, you could twist your stories just slightly to focus on something just slightly different. And one story you could have 10 or 15 different takeaways that you would use depending upon the audience that you're speaking with. So for example, oftentimes you'll hear keynote speakers, they'll say something like, "And we will customize the presentation to your audience." They don't. The good ones don't anyway. But what they do is they customize the takeaways to the audience, but the stories are always the same. And they're repeated the exact same way every single time with the right inflection because it's a song in spoken word. You got to practice it. But you do want to know what those takeaways and those lessons are. Topher: And then what I do is when somebody books me, I say, "Okay, well what are the current challenges that your company's dealing with? What are the things, what are the takeaways that your audience wants?" And then when they give those to me, then I go, "Okay, now what stories do I have that would fit into that category?" And then I'll apply that story to that takeaway. And then I just simply go, "All right, well, this is the number of takeaways," and I add up, this is a three-minute speech, this is a five-minute speech, this is a 30-second speech. And I add them all together and then I've got my presentation length. Now, sometimes though, your committees, your speaking committees, will go, "We just want them motivated. We just want them to be grateful that they're here at the conference. That's fine. We just want them having fun." "Okay, good. Then leave it up to me and I'll do my thing. How much time do you want me to speak?' And they'll say 45 minutes. And then you go, "Great." And then you go through and you put your song list together of all your different vignettes that add up to 45 minutes. Topher: Now, here's the cool thing about breaking a speech down into little bite-size vignettes. I have never in the history of speaking professionally in over 30 years, I have never, ever shown up for a keynote presentation where they have said, "Remember the agreed-upon time we asked you, that's exactly how much time we want you to speak." It has never ever, ever gone that way. This is always what happens. Once again, I'm speaking a little hyperbolic. I'm sure that I had one or two, but I just don't remember them. Topher: This is what normally will happen when somebody books you to speak. They'll come up to you backstage, usually five minutes before you're ready to go on, and they'll say something like this, they'll go, "Our next speaker is stuck at the airport. They're not going to be here. I know this is really last minute. I'm so sorry to ask this. I know we only asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but could you speak for 55 minutes?" or, "Could you speak for an hour and 15 minutes? If we have to pay you more, we will." By the way, they will say that too. But if they don't offer, by the way, that's fine. Just be cool. And they'll go, "Can you stretch it out to an hour and 15 minutes?" And then you go, "Absolutely. No problem. Because you know you've got a bank of other stories that didn't make the cut and you're just going to add a couple more of them in, not a big deal. Topher: Most commonly, though, that's not what's going to happen. Most commonly, they're going to come to you five minutes before your presentation and go, "Hey, I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but the vice president just showed up and he's on a tight deadline. He's got to get on a plane. He wants to get on stage a little bit of earlier. I hate to do this to you. I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes. Could you cut your presentation down to 30 minutes?" That happens, I'm going to say that probably happens, and I'm not exaggerating 90-plus percent of the time that's what will happen. And then you smile and you go, "Absolutely, no problem." You don't throw a fit because now you just know, "I'm going to cut a few songs out of my playlist and I'm going to get it down to 30." Whereas if you design a 45-minute presentation that has a beginning and a middle, and then I'm going to tell them what I'm going to tell them, I'm going to tell them and I'm going to tell them what I'm told them, the old Dale Carnegie speech stuff, which is just dead and done now, that doesn't work. Because now what do you? Do you tell the promoter, "No, I'm sorry. My presentation is 45 minutes. I have to do 45." Topher: No, what'll end up happening is you go, "Okay," and then you're like, "How do I speak really fast to get it done?" And then you end up going over and you piss off the promoter and they never bring you back. So yeah, take your best stories out of your book, make a list of all the different lessons or takeaways that could come from them. Create your vignette book, which is all a different story. And by the way, you might have five different stories for one point. That's okay too because you know what? They might have loved that point so much you need to drive it home again, and then you have another story as well. But that's the most time-consuming and professional way to build a speech from a book. Take your best stories, pull out the takeaways, build it based upon the takeaways and the time. Anna: And is it have a 10-minute, a 20-minute, and a 40-minute version? Do you think that's- Topher: No. I think you should just have 30-second to five-minute vignettes. And then when somebody books you, you go, "Oh, I got a 15-minute speech? I'm going to pull out my three best five-minute vignettes," or, "I'm going to pull out my four best three and a half-minute vignettes." And then you just add them up that way. Yeah. If you do it that way, you'll be golden. But that takes practice. It takes preparation. And unfortunately, most people... And by the way, this is just the mark between a professional speaker and a professional who speaks, there's a difference there. The professional who speaks is working on their slide presentation the night before. The professional speaker doesn't even deal with slides because he knows that they're a hassle and is going to entertain the audience with their stories anyway. Topher: So a couple of other things. The biggest misconception that I think people make that aren't professional speakers that have been asked to speak and it's their first keynote presentation and they're nervous about it, they think that they need to wow the audience with all of this great information and you're going to change their minds and their hearts and their lives with this dialogue. I think getting in perspective what it is that the keynote speaker does is very helpful. Your job, in my opinion, and I think if you were to talk to most professional speakers, people who run the circuit and they do this for a living, I think that most would probably agree, your job is not to change their lives in 45 minutes. Your job is to entertain the crap out of them for 45 minutes. Get them to laugh, get them to cry, get them to feel, get them to emote. Entertain them for 45 minutes. Don't try to change their lives. Topher: Which means you don't need a bunch of slides. You don't need a bunch of bullet points. You're not teaching them strategies and techniques and steps and processes. You're simply telling them stories and entertaining them. And if you do that, think about entertainment, emotion, don't worry about the content, don't worry about having them walk away with three successful strategies. Most people aren't taking notes anyway. Remember, they didn't even know who you were five minutes before you got on stage. So don't think that they're sitting there with baited breath and a pen and paper going, "Entertain me with your amazing words." They're just not going to be there. And I will say this, these smartphones have become the world's best feedback tool for speakers, because you will know exactly how good you are as a speaker based upon how many blue lights you see, glowing faces from the audience. Because they'll be on their phone. If you can see phones lighting up, you know you've lost them. Because they're, "Ah, screw this guy. I'm going to check my text messages now." And so they start- Anna: That's the worst. Topher: It is the worst. Yeah. Anna: But, speaking of the phone, I will say what I do to prep is I do it into my phone, then I listen, then I do practice again, then I listen again, then I practice again, then I listen again. I find listening when I'm practicing really, really as helpful as the practice. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Now I will tell you this, by the way, technology has made our job so much easier as well. There's a difference between... By the way, as an author, everybody knows this, the typed word is different than the spoken word. If you just transcribe audio into a book, it's an average book. I hope I don't offend some of your readers, your listers. Anna: Yeah, they know that. Topher: Yeah. Don't transcribe your work. It just doesn't sound... It doesn't translate. Well, guess what? It doesn't translate the other way as well. You don't want to sit there and recite or memorize your book because that's not human speech as well. But I do believe that there is a need for a script when you're starting your presentation in your rehearsal. So one of the best strategies right now is to use otter.ai, I think is that software. Holy heck, that thing is incredibly good. So just hit record, start telling your stories and talking, and then it'll transcribe for you. And then you go through. And the strategy that I like is to take three highlighters, a green highlighter, a yellow highlighter, and a red highlighter. Topher: And I go through the script after it's been transcribed, and I read through and I highlight red, yellow, green, red is unnecessary dribble, yellow is, "I like it if I have time," and green is, "This is so good I have to keep it in the presentation." And go through the entire speech and just highlight it red, yellow, green, red, yellow, green. And if you're like me and you're being honest, you'll have mostly red, a lot of yellow, and just a few greens. When you're just talking a story out, it'll take 20 minutes sometimes. And you can edit that down to a two-minute story if you give it the time and the attention that it needs, for sure. Anna: So great. We have to get close to wrapping up. So how do you sell that book from the stage without sounding douchey? Topher: Yeah. Okay. I learned this technique from a guy named Tom Antion. He is one of the few people that when he sends me spam email, I read it because the man just generally makes me laugh. His sales copy is just hilarious. And this was his technique. In fact, I think he had a presentation called How to Sell from the Stage Without Being a Douchebag, I think is what it was called. I was like, "I love this guy already." Here's the technique. You have on stage your book, but you're not going to hold it up and say it's for sale or anything like that. All you do is you take one small piece from your book which is a really golden gem, and you just pick it up and you go, "Let me just read something for you real quick." And then you open it and you just read 2, 3, 4 lines, that's it. And just read it, and you set it down. You can say, "I just want to read something from my book." You can say that. But you just read it. Topher: But you're not saying it's for sale. You're not saying it's $29.95, but today you can buy a copy for $10. You don't say any of that stuff. You just read one paragraph out of your book and then you set it down, respectfully, it's a nice piece of art. Set it down. Yep. Don't just throw it off to the side. Set it down. And then you continue with your presentation. That's it. That's all you do. You just read one small... And what happens is people get obsessed. They're like, "I loved what he just read," and they make this assumption, "The rest of the book must be just as good." And they want to buy it. Yeah. And I will tell you, literally, I saw my book sales, I'm not exaggerating, they probably jumped 60%, maybe more. I remember calling Tom going, "Tom, you are a genius. I tried that." And every person I've told that to, they do this technique and they're like, "People were running into the back to buy my book." I'm like, "Yeah, I can't even really explain it other than I think they feel that was so profound, the rest of the book must be just as profound." Anna: And you're doing that thing where you're closing the loop, like how marketing people will talk about how you sort of give the first part so that people are psychologically very invested in whatever the ending is. Topher: Yeah. Well actually, let's talk about that. Because once again, going back to the biggest mistake people make because they want to give, give, give, give, give, just give so much value, so much content, so much information, if you have 10 steps to transforming your life, don't try to talk about all 10 steps. But here's what you could do. You could say something like this. You could say something to the effect of, "For the past 25 years, I've been trying to narrow down what it takes to succeed in speaking into the most succinct, small, and easy to get patterns. And I've discovered that there are five things, that if every speaker does these five things, they will hands down get standing ovations, sell books at the back of the room without having to sell it. And out of those five, here's the one that I want to talk about today." Anna: Oh, that's so good. Topher: Right. And now, you didn't say, "But we don't have time to go through all," or you say, "Here's five, but I'm only going to give you one today. But if you want to buy the others, you can." No, you just say, "There are five things. And here's the one that I think is the most relevant today." You make it like, "I picked this one just for you guys." And what a beautiful open loop. They want to know what the other ones are. And by the way, maybe that chapter one, that's that good thing, the big, whatever your 10 steps are, that's the one you... Be the good one. Anna: Well, Topher, this has been absolutely fantastic. Tell people how they can reach you. And this is reaching you for help converting their book into a speech as well as help training. Topher: Yeah, sure. They can go to tophermorrison.com. That's probably the easiest way to do it. Tophermorrison.com. Yeah. And I have a book on public speaking. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. I get to say I wrote the book on public speaking. Not being self-aggrandizing, it's just the name of the book. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. So they can go to their Amazon and get that if they want to as well. Yeah. But listen, I've got tons of YouTube videos for free. Listen, they don't have to buy anything. They can get a lot of my stuff for free. They just go to YouTube and search for my name. Anna: Except of course, by giving out these gems, you were doing exactly what you advise people to do in a speech, which is giving the gem so that they go, "Well, God, booking him and reading that book must just be even better."  Topher: Listen, hey, I'm a squirrel trying to get a nut just like everybody else. So I'd be honored if somebody feels so inspired and they would like to do business with me. I would love that. But believe me, I'm just here because I think the world of you. I remember meeting you so many years ago and had such a blast with you. For you to reach back out to me so many years, I was just like, "Oh, this just made my day." I was just thrilled that you reached out. You made my day. Anna: You're the best. Thank you so much for doing this. And you know, you listeners, thank you so much for listening. I will talk to you next week. RELATED EPISODES How Do I Use My Book to Get Speaking Gigs? How to Get on Podcasts to Promote Your Book with John Corcoran Jess Lahey on Influencer Endorsements and Much More

It's been a minute since my last podcast episode... What better way to begin a new year than to learn new healthy habits! I had the pleasure of interviewing Anna Gala to learn more about her morning routine. Anna Gala is a certified meditation teacher, life coach, soulful business mentor, international speaker and published author of the My Morning Magic journal. We showed up both wearing tie dyed hoodies and even the Universe blessed us with some musical magic. Following the interview is a mini 5 minute breathwork session. Go ahead and make yourself comfortable while I get my chance to "Sit with Anna" You can find Anna on instagram @sitwithanna and her My Morning magic journal can be found at @mymorningmagic Don't forget to follow me on @metafizzical_life for posts on how to live your life more optimally with a strong body, clear mind and healthy spirit. Thank you so much for listening. Have a beautiful day. With gratitude and love, Fiona --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/metafizzical-life/message

Welcome to December 27, 2021 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate being nutty as a fruitcake and starting something new.  The holiday cheer may be fading fast but one treat is still alive and celebrating: the fruitcake. That's because they are built to last. In the early 1700s these dense cakes were baked during harvest time and loaded with nuts and fruits. But they were saved until the following year to ensure the next season's bounty. Fruitcakes also had quite a reputation for being sinfully rich. Queen Victoria was said to have waited a whole year after receiving one for her birthday before eating it, just to show proper restraint and dignity. But if your fruitcake has become a holiday joke, that gets re-gifted only to get tossed, perhaps you haven't tasted a truly delicious one. On National Fruitcake Day, make a pledge to find a good recipe for next year.    Marlo: While this month is nearly gone, it's never too late to start something new. In case you didn't know it, Anna it's Learn a Foreign Language Month. Anna: How are you going to learn a new language in only four days, Marlo? Marlo: I didn't say I was going for fluency. Just starting a new habit is what matters. John: Tim Ferriss, the entrepreneur actually has a blog post about how if you learn the 100 most used words in any language you can achieve functional fluency very quickly. Anna: I think I could do that! Marlo: I could do that too. Anna: You've got three days. Go! I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to December 25, 2021 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate the windy road of Christmas and the most punderful time of the year.  While Christmas enjoys popularity throughout the world today, its traditions have fluctuated widely. In medieval times, the birth of Jesus Christ was a solemn observance with very little feasting or singing. The Renaissance gave rise to the gift giving, decorating and caroling we enjoy today. The traditions of tree trimming and mistletoe came from the ancient celebration of Yule, which was adopted into Roman customs along with Christianity. For this reason, early puritans banned Christmas for nearly 20 years in America. The true spirit of this holiday is alive today because of our universal love for celebration. No matter how you keep this tradition, today we wish all you a very merry Christmas.  Marlo: It's also A'phabet Day! Anna: You mean “Alphabet”. Marlo: No. A'phabet. It's the word “alphabet,” but with no L. Get it? Noel. Like Christmas. Anna: That's right it's bad pun day isn't it? I remember this from last year. Marlo: Yep. Today, while you're enjoying the festivities, see how many puns you can slip into conversations. Anna: I wish I could just enjoy the day without puns. Marlo: Is that why you have resting Grinch Face? Anna: Hey! Marlo: Yule be sorry if you don't attend my Christmas party this year. Anna: You're being a jerk, Marlo. Marlo: It takes one to snow one. Anna: But wait there's myrrh. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to December 19, 2021 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate gifts that keep on giving and candies that go the distance.  Anna: Hey Marlo, you're a numbers guy. If someone gave you all the gifts from the song The Twelve Days of Christmas, do you know how many total gifts would you end up with?  Marlo: Y'know, I've never even thought of that. Anna: You would have 364 items in total, which are mostly bird related. Marlo: Yeah, there's no re-gifting those. Anna: The best part would be the 12 pear trees (with partridges, of course). But before you buy someone a pear tree, you'd better check for what variety they prefer because there are a lot! Can you guess how many? Marlo: Marlo guesses Anna: Get this…There are 3,000 different kinds of pears in the world. Which is perfect because that means you have plenty to choose from during National Pear Month.   In 1949, Bill and Dorothy Harmsen founded Jolly Rancher in Golden, Colorado. They chose the name because it sounded friendly and had a bit of western flair. It was also a nod to the Jolly Farmer, a drugstore in their hometown of Minneapolis. Originally, the Harmsens sold ice cream, chocolate, and candy, but because ice cream sales plummeted during the winter months, they focused their business on producing hard candies. The first flavors were grape, apple, and fire stix, but their most popular flavor—cherry—didn't come along till years later. Today, Jolly Rancher produces the most popular hard candy of all time proving that a little perseverance can pay off big! On National Hard Candy Day, savor the long lasting sweetness of a candy that sticks with you. I'm Anna Devere and I'm Marlo Anderson. Thanks for joining us as we Celebrate Every Day. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How do we meaningly engage conversation around topics that are highly charged in our culture? Join our conversation with Anna Carter, the founder of Eden Invitation, a community for Catholics that promotes the fullness of personal identity beyond the LGBTQ paradigm. We talk about acceptance, relationship, and finding common ground under compassionate orthodoxy. ### QUOTES “One of the most critical things that is so simple yet so often overlooked, is the primacy of relationship with Christ in all these situations.” - Anna What does the human heart need above sexual fulfillment: love, belonging, acceptance. That doesn't mean accepting the entirety of the person. I feel acceptance and people don't accept every sin I commit. We do have bigger paradigms to operate under but all of a sudden our paradigm within this context just shrinks, and we think, I have nothing.” - Jason “If I love someone well, they stay. And I think that's the secret sauce of Jesus. It's the woman at the well, Zacheus, the leper—all these people realize, this man is loving me.” - Jason Part of [this] comes down to the individual accompaniment. Asking people, how is your prayer? What is the question behind their question? What's going on in other aspects of his life and the full context of his life?” - Anna “What would it look like if we suffered with those that are gender minorities? What are your pain points in the church? What are the expectations on your life? What's hard? What is the suffering and how can I be in it with you?” - Anna “It's easy to put a wall up when someone experiences passion in a way that we don't understand. When in reality, there are scorching passions inside all of us. Am I willing to be in tune with my own? Am I willing to be in tune with the way I cry out and to look at you from that gaze of understanding?” - Anna “You can't take someone into their story further than what you're willing to go into yourself.” - Jason *### The Important Things: * 7:40 - It's not just always about giving someone the right tools, it's the relationship that keeps us walking with the Lord. We have to let go and guide someone towards a deeper relationship. 10:21 - A lot of it comes down to the individual accompaniment and asking the questions behind their questions. What is their context? What other aspects are going on in their life? 12:15 - “I think we are guilty of the same thing we accuse the LBGTQ community of doing. Which is identifying by sexuality…. All of a sudden, everything we know about ministry gets tossed out the window. Everything we know about human development and human formation and spiritual formation, all of a sudden it drops out of our backpack and we don't know what to do. Which is sort of identifying them by it. It's saying, because you're this, I don't have ways to help you.” 14:00 - The principle is being confident in your life in Jesus in order to offer it to others. The second is giving people what they need from a human level: belonging, love, acceptance. 26:15 - What do we do when we don't know how to engage meaningfully? You have to consider: the internal reality of the hearer, your own intention, and how culture has infused words with different meanings. But what matters most of all is the heart. What is the intention behind the language and conversation? 48:08 - Compassionate orthodoxy: It can be empathy and understanding. But it can also be suffering with—to love, and be called to charity. What are their pains in culture and the Church? We can find common ground in the human experience of being in the wilderness. Lists & Resources https://www.edeninvitation.com/ https://www.instagram.com/edeninvitation/ https://www.facebook.com/edeninvitation/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmgNJUWwpyki1JlCP2Rbg

In this episode, we are talking about the sixth form programme at KGS and all of the elements that come together to make this programme the whole package.  Although Sixth Form at KGS provides a strong academic programme with outstanding grade results, the programme also provides valuable life skills and experiences.    EPISODE THREE TRANSCRIPT SIXTH FORM AT KGS: THE WHOLE PACKAGE [00:00:00] Students: [00:00:00] I think to anyone, it can be quite daunting moving from GCSE to A-level looking at universities, but KGS has made that really easy. I quite enjoy having a smaller classes. And I think that really helps when you can work together as a class. For example, in politics, we do quite a lot of debates and it's quite interesting to work together and debates - you pick arguments and you write how you're going to speak… [00:00:24] …whereas in a bigger class, I think it'd be more difficult. And also you get more one-on-one time with teachers and you can just email them [00:00:30] and ask them questions if you have any queries. So it's quite good. [00:00:36] Narration: Hello and welcome to the Kingston Grammar School podcast. Throughout this podcast, we will be speaking with faculty and students alike about important topics surrounding the Kingston Grammar School or KGS community. I am your host, Shannon Vandermark and whether you are a present or future parent… [00:00:55] …or student or simply interested in KGS, you are very welcome [00:01:00] for any listeners new to Kingston Grammar School, KGS is an independent co-educational day school located in Kingston Upon Thames, England.  Officially founded in 1561, the school can trace its roots back to at least the 13th century. KGS is one of the most successful coeducational schools in the country.  Inspirational teaching, and a deep commitment to pastoral care means that students grow in confidence and understanding and individual [00:01:30] talents and creativity are able to flourish. [00:01:33] In this episode, we are talking about the sixth form program at KGS and all of the elements that come together to make this program the whole package.  Although sixth form at KGS provides a strong academic program with outstanding grade results. the program also provides valuable life skills and experiences. [00:01:53] Co-curricular activities on offer are vast from KGS's renowned hockey and rowing programs to [00:02:00] a variety of choices in music, drama and community service, for example.  The school's motto of work well and be happy is keenly demonstrated through each student's bespoke sixth form experience. My guests today include Headmaster, Stephen Lehec, Head of Sixth Form Lecture Program Anna Edwards, Head of Upper Sixth. [00:02:21] Chris Wenham and Head of P S H E Maria Robinson. I am still conducting these interviews remotely for this episode, [00:02:30] but it looks like I might be able to record an episode inside the school very soon. My first guest was Headmaster Stephen Lehec, who I get to chat with every episode and is always a delight. [00:02:44] Shannon: Hello, Steven. Stephen: Good morning, crikey. I guess no one knows it's morning. Hello. Good day. Good morning. Good evening and good night. And were you I'm very well. Thank you. Shannon: Thank you for sitting down and talking to me about the sixth form program at KGS. [00:03:00] Why do you think the sixth form at KGS is the whole package? [00:03:04] Stephen: Oh, gosh, that's a really big question, but it's a really good one because I guess you could ask any school leader, you know, does your sixth home offer everything that you think it should? And they'd say of course, because to some people, it just really needs to be around your A-Levels or preview or IB, the traditional competing factors A-Levels and IB. [00:03:23] And people would say. We've got what you're going to need in terms of the quality of teaching and the facilities and the [00:03:30] resources. They're going to get you to the next stage of your life. Be that a fantastic career or university. And we say, Yeah, KGS. That is really true, but that's one sixth or even one seventh potentially of what your Sixth Form experience will be. [00:03:45] So you've got the academic package, which is going to get you to your next stage. You've also got your extended learning, which is not only going to get you to university, but going to get you to the best university or course that you want to be prepared for. This could be Oxbridge. This could be studying [00:04:00] Ivy league in the United States. [00:04:01] This could be Canada. This could be your, this could be studying photography at Falmouth. It's the best photograpy course in the country. Right. But that's super curricular as we call them. Plus, you're going to have co-curricular so many, six forms don't have co-curricular don't have sports for students at that age. [00:04:14] They kind of very much rely on them doing it outside school or college. Right. We have all the careers and education advice because we have dedicated people to do that. We have all the outward bound and the trips. So that's Russia, that's Germany. That's France. That's South Africa. And on top of that, we teach people how to [00:04:30] cook a meal safely without giving themselves food poisoning… [00:04:32] …we talked to them about how to iron a shirt for your first interview. We have a lecture program that we're going to hear about. And we've got lots of bits of education, lots of soft skills preparation for life. And because you're in a school that is the type of school we are, you have a really kind of wraparound pastoral care system. [00:04:47] So. You have a teacher group that's 10, 12 people, or studying similar subjects to you with a tutor that knows their subjects, knows what your aspiration is that makes you welcome. Whether you're, someone's been in the school for the last three, four, five years, or you're [00:05:00] somebody who's brand new to the school, who's got a buddy and a mentor and a tutor and the prefects. [00:05:04] And so actually. We offer the levels and the advice and the guidance, but we offer so much more. I can't think of anything else we could put in that would make the Sixth Form experience, more happy, more fulfilling, more rewarding. And that's why, I guess we feel it's really just the whole package. Shannon: And those two important years from 16 to 18, there's quite a few choices out there for parents and students. [00:05:27] Aren't there. How do you invite people to see what [00:05:30] KGS is all about for those two years? Stephen: We have open events around June and that's in the summer of their year 10, all schools deliver fantastic service in their own, right. Everyone has their own individual way of approaching things, but obviously we get a few hundred students who every year look to us and say, if I'm going to change, if I'm looking at a potential change for six form, if I want something different, what does KGS offer? [00:05:52] And if they're looking at us, they're probably looking at two or three other schools and colleges as well. We're not gonna pretend to be a college. There's certain subjects we don't offer. We don't do [00:06:00] sociology. We don't do media studies. We don't do business studies, our profile in terms of our subjects. [00:06:03] We've got nearly 38 levels, but they're pretty facilitating academic subjects. It's sciences, humanities. Maths is very strong. We do economics rather than business studies. We do sports studies. A-level rather than BTech. We want students to go to Loughborough, to Birmingham, to Oxford, Cambridge, to Harvard, to Yale or to wherever, you know, I'm most conscious of making sure I get an American reference in when I'm speaking to you, Shannon. [00:06:27] Shannon: Syracuse University - you want to get them in there. [00:06:30] Stephen: Absolutely. I was just about some tip of my tongue, that number three on my list, looking around. And then I think people are surprised by the package by how much is on offer at KGS. When people are looking around on wondering and thinking, can I fit my choices in and where am I going to get the most support to get to the best university possible? [00:06:47] Then we're obviously an option for people and we get so many applicants that we want to cherry pick those people that we think are going to make the most of it, but also those people who really want to come because they want to come. Not because [00:07:00] their parents have said they should come. It's about getting from those couple of hundred applicants, the 20 to 30 who are really going to make the… [00:07:07] …absolute most of being here because it's going to fuel their desire, give them extra bits of potential to succeed and absolutely become a Kingstonian because people that come to us in the sixth form get embedded within the school. They're not visitors to the school. They're members of the school. Shannon: I just wanted to ask you, I know that you've got two daughters, is that right? [00:07:25] And so the older one has only just started university. Stephen: Yeah. I [00:07:30] started in KGS in 2014 and she was just about 20 year nine. So she came with that and she loved it, did so well with a GCSE. And then I tried to that classic thing as a parent saying, these are the levels you need to do. Because I have this vision of you going to Oxford and she was like, dad, you know what you say, to all the other people about being their choice, not the parents' choice. [00:07:53] She said that applies to me as well. Well, good for her. I was like, Oh wow. You know, we've got the grandparents involved. She [00:08:00] ended up doing biology, which was the subject. She dropped him. Sorry to say, but she did plastics. She did maths. She did drama, which was her favorite A-level. And that was the one I was like, Why are you doing drama and she said because I love it. [00:08:13] And I'm good at it. And actually the staff here are phenomenal, both the theory and the practice. So what a great choice for her that was. So she ended up kind of coming out with three stars, which was amazing and an EPQ and a love of netball and rowing and sports and community [00:08:30] service. And she was a prefect and I stayed out of all of that. [00:08:33] I was kind of like, I don't want to know. Because you made your choices. This is your bed.  You're going to lie in it. And so I said to her, right, but you're on for really good grades. So I want you to think about Oxford again. And he said, Dad, you're doing it again. You're interfering. I've spoken to Mr. Cooper, the academic deputy, I've spoken to Mr. [00:08:49] Fitzgerald. Who's director of careers and universities. I've spoken to my teachers. I'm going to go and study liberal arts and natural sciences at Birmingham. And I said why? And she said, [00:09:00] because I want to study liberal arts and natural sciences. She's majoring currently in economics, which she didn't study for at A-level. [00:09:06] And she said, and that is the best university for that course. So that's the course I want to do. That's the best university for it. That's where I'm going to get into. And you can keep your Oxbridge, isn't your thing. And I was thinking, Oh no, my stats, my Oxbridge stats. [00:09:23] But that's the thing. We have students who make very informed decisions and we have to remember the, whether it's our own children or other people's [00:09:30] children, it's their choice. It's their life. So Alice was for me a great success story here, she did well,  she did her own thing, really proud of what she's doing. [00:09:39] She's now on the verge of completing her first year at Birmingham. Shannon: Wow. I can tell how proud you are of them and not just because of the stats obviously, but because they are making their own decisions, which you as a father and a headmaster have encouraged. Absolutely. Thank you so much for speaking with me. [00:09:55] Stephen: Not at all, not at all. And I apologize for rambling on about lots of stuff that I'm very [00:10:00] excited about and, um, Really, really excited for what the next few years hold once we can start meeting people again in person IRL, as people say, starting to have real life meetings, Shannon: hashtag IRL. Absolutely. And it's been lovely chatting to you again. [00:10:14] Stephen: Thank you. [00:10:18] Student: I came to KGS in first year. So I was 11. So I've been here the whole way through. I preferred the idea of going to a smaller school.  Sport was really important to me; I play netball and hockey and KGS [00:10:30] offers that as well. I was also interested in other schools that had a combined cadet force, because that's a massive part of my life here at KGS. [00:10:37] And then also just the subjects I wanted to take. [00:10:43] Narration: next. I was joined by Anna Edwards, who is head of the sixth form lecture program, and also head of the psychology department at KGS and his enthusiasm for the program was so tangible that made me want to attend myself. Anna: The sixth form lecture program is fantastic. [00:11:00] I absolutely love running it partly because I get to then listen to some of these fantastic lectures myself, which is a real bonus. [00:11:07] Each year, we have a broad range of speakers, so they can be politicians, novelists, academics, those just sharing remarkable life stories. They come and speak to our six form alongside more six form specific lectures. And the purpose of the program is to give our students a greater academic diversity and enhance the curriculum that they do. [00:11:29] And it [00:11:30] gives them access to speakers that they may not come into contact with. Usually. It's really important that they develop alternative perspective to some of the views that they've been exposed to. And this in turn helps develop their cultural capital. I'd like to think that all the students will have a lecturer too, that will stick with them and will be really memorable. [00:11:51] Shannon: What do you think it is about young people at this age in particular that is interesting to you and why are you passionate about supporting young people at this [00:12:00] age in their lives? Anna: Sixth Form is such a key two years. We often talk about the transition between primary school to secondary school, but this transition between six form and leaving home, it's monumental, it's huge. [00:12:13] They will have to develop a huge amount of responsibility over their own health, finances, wellbeing, and there's so many things to consider that we, as a school, have a responsibility to prepare our students on how to manage this. [00:12:30] And how to manage these changes alongside PSHE. We take them through a lot of these changes, these processes, how to apply for their UCAS, how to apply for student finance, how they'd go about applying for a universities, abroad, how to… [00:12:46] …keep themselves safe at university while on nights out when traveling festivals and also how to safeguard their own mental health. When they're at university, university is marketed as a really [00:13:00] exciting time for them, but actually it can be quite difficult. So if they know, and if we show them where there are student services, if they find themselves in a difficult position, we know that we are sending our students off with the best opportunity to enjoy their time at university or work. [00:13:16] Shannon:Right. You don't get training for other phases in life so much, do you? know, still, unfortunately, fortunately, sometimes Anna: there are stages in life where actually it would have been nice to when having children be handed an instruction manual, but we try [00:13:30] and do that for them as much as possible. Shannon: Why do you think it's so important for a student to present themselves as well-rounded, while they're leaving KGS or while they're leaving academia or moving into another phase? [00:13:41] What is the benefit of a well-rounded individual in your opinion? Anna: You've only got to think that the ever-changing job market means that you probably won't be in a job for life and your future jobs may involve a completely different set of skills. So to succeed in the future in potentially a fast [00:14:00] changing labor market, you need to be a lifelong learner. [00:14:03] You need to be comfortable with continuous adaptation and willing to move professions or even industries if your profession becomes obsolete. So. Right from the get go. Students need to be seeking opportunities to keep the interests and abilities, broad and honing all their skills included their soft skills. Shannon: I guess, historically, the options for work were a lot more finite, the train for [00:14:30] a profession. [00:14:30] You did it for life. Didn't you? So. The importance of being well-rounded has evolved, would you say, over time? Anna: Yeah. Yes, definitely. I mean, I'm here recording a podcast as a teacher. This was definitely not my intention, but jobs evolve. A lot of our students will be doing jobs that don't exist yet. So we need to prepare them with skills that they can transfer between professions and industries. [00:14:52] Shannon: It's really interesting. I have a, one-year-old you say you're far off thinking about these things, but as soon as you start hearing about this stuff, you just start going. [00:15:00] Yeah. I already want him to be listening to music and taking swimming lessons, and I know it's quite far off, but are these things that you start to think about even from a young age? [00:15:09] Anna:  It's so important that you have interests for life, that you may have an interest in sport. You may have an interest in theater. You might have an interest in music. And actually these are things that you take with you and are important in later life. Even if it's just socially. Even if you then later on when you're working, you find a recreational football team and you can make [00:15:30] friends and have a way of exercising. [00:15:32] It doesn't have to be a competitive thing. It can be more to help your wellbeing. Shannon: And it's just life experience, isn't it at any age. And I think as children get older, students get older. I can only imagine it gets harder to persuade them or suggest that they keep their options open. But this sounds like a great way to give them lots of experience. [00:15:52] Anna:  Yeah. I would echo that and I think as they start becoming teenagers and the social aspect does become important, it is important to keep [00:16:00] all those things that they. Enjoy, and that gives them lots of different outlets. Shannon: Okay. Well, thank you so much, Anna. I know you've got a lot to get back to and, um, I really appreciate your time. [00:16:11] Anna:  Thank you very much. Okay. Take care. Thank you. Bye-bye. [00:16:17] Student:  We've been doing some interview style stuff to prepare us for applying for jobs. And then also interesting lessons as much more of a lecture, kind of feel to them compared to GCSE is where you'll have to take notes and you can decide [00:16:30] how much extra work you would like to do. And you've got all this independence and you know that however much work you're going to put in, [00:16:36] You're hoping to get those results out. Narration:  My next guest was head of upper sixth, Chris Wenham. Chris is also a chemistry teacher at KGS and is so passionate about guiding students through this monumental phase in their life. Shannon:  Hello, Chris, how are you? Chris:  I'm very well. How are you?  Shannon:  doing good. Thank you. I wanted to just kick things off by speaking to [00:17:00] you a bit about your responsibilities as the head of upper six and what your role is there at KGS. [00:17:06] Chris:  My job is anything related to the upper six. So whether that's on the academic side, in terms of helping students making good progress, whether that's pastorally and various other bits in between at the moment with the upper sixth, a lot of planning going into the end of year events and making sure that, you know, after this disrupted season of COVID, we give them the sendoff that they deserve. [00:17:27] You know, that's a little bit of fun for me at the end of the year, kind of putting [00:17:30] together leavers' clothing, hoodies, putting together the yearbook, organizing their prom. That's a nice way to ground off that time. So yeah, the whole spectrum of different things. Shannon:  And how would you say the sixth form program at KGS differs from other schools in your experience or knowledge of other schools? [00:17:45] Chris:  So I think at KGS, what we really try to do is to provide a personally tailored education. We're not a one size fits all. So you have to fit in this box. Actually, you can pursue your passions wherever they take you. So if you are [00:18:00] a high flying academic, then we want to push you. We want to make sure that your curriculum is as challenging and stimulating as possible. [00:18:06] We want to encourage you to have the highest aspirations, but if you want more vocation in your plans, then actually our careers department is very set up for that. And our careers advisor is not kind of fixated on this one track. You have to do. There is something for everyone, whether you are a sportsman or woman, whether you are interested in the spheres of drama and music, actually, there are plenty of ways where we [00:18:30] just encourage our students to thrive and excel. [00:18:32] So the thing I love about KGS, we're not an academic hot house. We get excellent results and I'm very proud of what our students achieve, but actually that is in a whole range of disciplines and fields. It is not simply about grades at the end of two years. Shannon:   Right. And why are you so passionate about supporting young people at this particular phase in their lives? [00:18:51] Chris:   I think the sixth form is so important. It is the culmination of everything that has gone before years. One to five are very important in shaping boys and girls [00:19:00] into who they are going to be. But actually sixth form is the time where all of that groundwork comes to fruition in terms of them making their own decisions for what they want to do with their lives. [00:19:10] Beyond that, I've always found it incredibly rewarding, working with sixth formers. They are a fun, creative, exciting, engaged bunch of individuals and actually helping them make the decisions that will impact the rest of their lives is just a massive privilege. And no one day is the same and I absolutely love it. [00:19:28] Shannon:  It's such an interesting [00:19:30] age, isn't it? Chris:  Absolutely. There are so many options and things to discuss and things to work through. It's just lovely. When you see young people find their passions and actually want to pursue it. And it's like, yes, our job is done. You're ready to kind of spread your wings and fly. [00:19:44] Shannon:  Right. Wow. That's great. And do you have any advice to students approaching sixth form or to parents of children approaching six form in terms of A-level choices and so forth? Chris:  In terms of your A-level choices, obviously you can't try all the levels, you are narrowing down, but when reflecting on [00:20:00] the subjects that you want to do at a level, what is it that you enjoy most at GCSE that is going to be the thing that you're going to enjoy spending the vast majority of your school career doing. [00:20:09] So again, don't choose something which you think, or that'll look good on a CV, or that will help me get into that university. It's like, well, do you want to do that? That is the key.  Shannon:   A bit harder to swallow for parents, do you think?  Chris:   It can sometimes be hard can't it, particularly if there are things that have influenced you as a parent. [00:20:27] But I think on the whole, all parents want [00:20:30] their children to be happy, doing something that they enjoy and actually sixth form and school is a time where you can make mistakes as well, but it's a safe place to make mistakes. And if you end up doing the wrong thing, well, actually it's correctable and we can give them the support to move in the direction that they want to. [00:20:45] Shannon:  Is there any advice you have, particularly for parents as they're deciding where to send their children? Are there any words of wisdom? Chris:  That's a good one. I think we want to showcase ourselves and all schools want to showcase themselves as actually, you know, [00:21:00] being caring for the individual and looking after the best interest of your son and daughter, talking to staff, you know, I love this school. [00:21:07] I've been here for. 11 years now. And it's just been an awful lot of fun. So, you know, those interactions with staff and actually seeing what do they enjoy? What is the character, what is the ethos of KGS? That's really important as we'll be the ones who kind of have the day-to-day responsibility for looking after your sons and daughters. [00:21:23] Shannon:  But it's such an important phase of their lives. It's important that they do have the support that they need or that they can benefit from it. [00:21:30] It sounds like you give a lot of that out. Chris:  Totally crucial. It is just such a joy and privilege being in the position that we are as teachers actually, you know, this is the end, this is the culmination they're ready to fly and they're prepared for this and they're ready to go onto the next thing. [00:21:41] So, yeah, it's a great place to be. Shannon:  And this must be of unique ending of a term for you as you near the end with this group of students, you've all gone through quite a year, two years in there. Chris:  Yeah. And I think it's been hard for them, particularly this cohort. They haven't had the normal sixth form experience and the [00:22:00] normal rites of passage that you might hope for sixth formers. [00:22:02] But actually I think, again, it's the testament to the wonderful resilience of teenagers. They have rolled with the punches. They have taken onboard ever changing government advice and just got on with the job in hand. And just like, so we don't like it, but we've got to crack on and we've got to do our best. [00:22:16] And that's what I've loved this year. I found it hard watching sometimes in terms of, as they struggle with the uncertainty, but they have done so well. And with the right kind of guidance and support, what an amazing life experience to have in terms of building resilience [00:22:30] and flexibility, for sure. Yes. [00:22:31] Shannon:  They are going to be well prepared for anything that life throws at them after this. I'm sure. That's right. Well, thank you so much, Chris. And, um, I really appreciate your time today. No, it's been a pleasure speaking to you. Chris:  Thank you so much, Shannon. Narration:  Finally, I spoke with a psychology teacher, Maria Robinson, who is also head of P S H E - a remarkable and comprehensive program that really prepares students for life beyond KGS. [00:22:57] Maria:  PSHE is those I'm sure plenty people know what [00:23:00] it stands for, but it's personal social health and economic education. So it covers a very, very broad range of topics. My interest is primarily in mental health as a psychology teacher. That's where my interest as lane for many years. And that feeds into the PSHE program that I run here. [00:23:16] It's not just us talking about mental health. It's basically trying to equip our students for life in and out of KGS as well. So we look at skills like building resilience, in them. What we do is we try and give them situations that might arise so they can have [00:23:30] ideas about what they would do, what warning signs to look out for. [00:23:33] We can't stop trials and tribulations that are going to happen. We can't stop bad things happening, but what we can do is make sure they're equipped so that when things do happen, they've got some idea about how to cope with those situations. Shannon:  And what's an example of a situation you might be helping prepare students for. [00:23:49] Maria:   It could be something that they all go through, so it could be exam stress. So what we try and do is give them skills from very early on. So in the first year we have a be happy program, which teachers love going over [00:24:00] with them. So. We talked to them about keeping safe and keeping healthy, but we also say, what do you do in your downtime? [00:24:05] What could you do to make yourself happy? So we look at things like Lego. We look at gardening, mindfulness cooking as well. So lots of different things that they can try if they're feeling stressed. So in that situation, when stress does happen, we can't stop that. How are they going to cope in that situation, but also having outlets for it. [00:24:24] People that can talk to those people they can talk to in school. We obviously put them to outside agencies as well, if they [00:24:30] want to talk to them, Childline things like that as well. So it's just giving them options happen. Invaluable. When they leave us at the end of the sixth form, then they're gonna find it more difficult to access the sort of support they get at school. [00:24:41] I know that universities do strive to put support packages in place for them, but. Students are then expected to show a lot more independence and they may struggle when they're in an unfamiliar situation to ask for the kind of help they need. So what we want to do is prepare them beforehand, tell them how they can access support with us, and then when they leave us as well, and also to remind them [00:25:00] that when they leave, they can still come back to us. [00:25:02] They can still turn to us for support. What I do is I email them all in their first term, after they've left us. And I do that around about world mental health day. And just say, we're still here for you. If you need us, you know, look after yourself, look after your mental health. And we also point them to external agencies at university that they can get help with their, if they need us, that kind of support whatsoever left us. [00:25:22] Shannon: So actually the sixth form program at KGS extends past when they leave you. Maria:   Yes, that's it. They may physically [00:25:30] leave us, but they're with us. Shannon: That's wonderful. Why are you passionate about supporting young people at this particular phase in their lives? What is this phase that has caught your attention and your passion? [00:25:41] Maria:   I think as a predominantly a level teacher, this is the age group that I've been working with and I've had two children go through this stage as well. They're at university and beyond now, but that moved from being reliant on your family on school and to certainly send home friends. To then becoming more independent. [00:25:58] It's really exciting, but it's very [00:26:00] scary for them as well. They're expected to act like adults in some situations and in other situations they're being treated like children. So it's really important that they get good advice and support to help them with this transition. Shannon: Do you have any anecdotes or memories of when your own children were going through this phase that informs the way that you support or guide the students now? [00:26:21] Maria:   Well, I was developing the program when they were both in the sixth form, so it was very useful. I would talk to them about the lessons I was doing. They also [00:26:30] made me jump in there because we also do a sort of more fun side for the episode. Next we give, we talk to them about skills like washing, cooking, cleaning. [00:26:37] Yeah. Ironing. And I realized I hadn't taught my son to iron a shirt. So we very quickly had a lesson on that. It was about the support afterwards as well. When my son went off to university, he found his second year quite difficult emotionally, and he needed a support from us. So it was. Making sure that I knew where to find that support for him, explain to the students before they leave us that they may need the support. [00:26:59] So [00:27:00] we look at mental health in the sixth form of how to get help when you're with us and how to get help beyond when you were at university. So they know that there are people out there who are waiting to hear from them. If they need to help inform the program for me. And it made me realize that parents need PSHE lessons as well. [00:27:15] Shannon: I know you've got kind of a timeline of the program that changes when a student enters lower six than when they leave upper sixth. Can you run us through that timeline and how your support and the program evolves and changes with this? Maria:   Yes. So the government [00:27:30] starch tree program. Is only four years, one to five. [00:27:32] So when they go into the sixth form, we have a lot more flexibility. We are required to put on a program for them, but there's much more flexibility in what we actually deliver to them. So what we do is we have sort of three themes that run through each term with both the lower and upper sixth. And we're looking at being an independent and respectful citizen. [00:27:48] We look at preparing for life after school, and then we look at keeping socially and academically healthy. So the lower sixth, we look at simple things like how to make Cornell notes. Obviously they've learned how to make notes [00:28:00] lower down in the school. But as a meeting into more challenging lessons is how to keep them precise and how to keep them useful. [00:28:07] So just very simple skills like that. We also look at the start of applying to university. What sort of things do they want to consider? What courses, where they look at? What about the geographical location? You know, do you want to stay close to home or do you actually, is this your chance to break out and be more independent and go to a bit further away from home? [00:28:24] Volunteering and the role that we as a school play in our local community, we also [00:28:30] consider wider topics such as LGBTQ issues in society. And also we look at political influences, which is preparing them for when they go into upper sixth and they're going to be voting. Right. We then in the spring term, that's just one term in the spring term, we focus on safety for them. [00:28:45] So we look at personal safety and obviously as they're getting older, they're more likely to be out at night. So we look at safety around, um, being out of the house. Safety around drugs and alcohol, because that whole scene is going to change for them. When they leave home, we look at driving [00:29:00] because we're going to start seeing them taking driving lessons and driving tests. [00:29:03] And this year we looked at issues around masculinity, the concept of toxic masculinity, because we want to raise awareness with our students of what is happening currently and what may happen when they leave us as well. In the summer, we sort of continue a bit on that topic. We talk more about consent. [00:29:18] We talk about gender equality and we're taking part in the HeForShe campaign, which looks at building gender IQ and that's part of the UN movement for gender equality. So we're sort of getting involved in bigger campaigns. We fine tune their [00:29:30] personal statements. We look at interview skills, so some universities will still do into your practice, but others don't, but every student will at some time have an interview in their life. [00:29:38] So we practice some of those questions. We look at networking and personal branding. We want them to consider their online presence from a professional perspective, not just from a perspective of what their friends can see. We look at voting they're about to turn 18 or they may have turned 18. So we look at what happens, what a voting booth looks like, what would be expected of them, how [00:30:00] to search for details of their local MP and who they might want to pick for. [00:30:04] And then we also talk about trip planning, which is a nice way. We sort of spend Christmas looking at things that might go wrong. If you plan a trip abroad, you might go into ready with your friends, look at all these scenarios. What could you do in those scenarios? And then we spent the final term really preparing them for leaving us. [00:30:18] So that's what I was saying earlier. We talk about, you know, washing ironing, cooking, shopping, cleaning. We also look at their mental and sexual health and where they can get support for that when they leave us. Yeah. [00:30:30] University accommodation, student finance. We want them to be able to make choices with up-to-date information to hand. [00:30:36] Yeah. I think it's a reasonably comprehensive program, but there's always more that we can add. Shannon:   It's very comprehensive. Definitely teaching children to become functioning adults, which, being in the workforce and just being out in the world, you realize how few people have those life skills! Yeah. Great. [00:30:52] Okay. Well, thank you so much, Maria is really nice chatting with you. Maria:   Thank you, Shannon. Yeah. Narration:   Thank you for listening to this episode. [00:31:00] of the Kingston Grammar School podcast. If you are interested in learning more about the upcoming KGS sixth form live event, please check out the Kingston Grammar School website at www.KGS.org.uk. [00:31:14] Or follow KGS on Twitter @KGS1561 on Facebook @KingstonGrammar. Or on Instagram, KGS1561. If you haven't listened to our previous episodes, do check them out. [00:31:30] In the first episode, we spoke to various students and faculty about the school's pivot into online learning during lockdown and how the KGS community was looked after and continues to be looked after in these uncertain times. [00:31:43] In the second episode, we covered the hot topic of personal devices, such as laptops, tablets, and mobile phones in the classrooms and why KGS sees these one-on-one devices as tools, not toys.  Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts [00:32:00] so that you don't miss an episode and take a moment to rate and review the podcast as it helps listeners to find us more easily. [00:32:07] Join us next time when we speak to some luminous KGS alumni.  Special thanks to our guests this episode, Steven Lehec, Anna Edwards, Chris Wenham and Maria Robinson. Thank you also to Alison Williams, Director of Marketing and Admissions at Kingston Grammar School. This has been an Applied Reality Production, Executive [00:32:30] Produced by Shannon Vandermark, Sound Design by Alex Marcou.    

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Mark Wright – entrepreneur, TV personality and winner of The Apprentice in 2014.  We talk about work-life balance and maintaining a strong online presence for your business post lockdown. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on the pros and cons of business education. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Mark Wright's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Mark Wright – entrepreneur, TV personality and winner of The Apprentice in 2014. Born in Armidale, Australia, Mark’s entrepreneurial family inspired him to go into business himself. He was backpacking when, with £172 in the bank, he decided to get to an English-speaking country to start earning. After coming to the UK, he found a job selling digital advertising services. Unfortunately, he was unable to secure a bank loan to start a digital marketing agency of his own, so a friend suggested he entered The Apprentice instead. Since winning the show, he’s launched five businesses and is the only winner to turn over in excess of £1m within one year. We’ll be talking about stress management and maintaining a strong online business presence post lockdown. Anna: Hi, Mark. Mark: Hey, how are you? Anna: Yeah, I'm really good, thank you. How are you? Mark: I'm really good. Thank you so much for having me today. I really appreciate it. Anna: Of course, of course. How is it down where you are? Mark: Listen, it's pretty good. We're pretty lucky considering everything that's going on in the world. I mean, not compared to my family in Australia. They think we're like aliens over here in the UK. Anna: Oh, I know. I’ve got a lot of family in Brisbane and they were just going about like everything's normal and I'm just going, ‘I’ve forgotten how that how that functions.’   Mark: I'm so jealous. People always say to me, ‘Why are you living over here? I've always had a good answer, but I'm not so sure right now! Speaking of you coming over here, there's a little bit I wanted to know. In the intro, we've talked a bit about you backpacking and you coming to the UK to start work. I know that this backpacking adventure has been pivotal to where you are now. But I'm wondering, what was the intention of it when you set out? Was it part of your broader plan to become a business owner? Mark: Well, it's a bit of a sad story really. I was dating a girl in Australia, and I had sort of found my passion for digital marketing, had my self-discovery of what I was going to do in life. And then I got my heart broken. I decided the best revenge was to go out and get out in the world. I got my backpack, packed it up with like three pairs of jeans, a couple of shirts, and off I went around the UK and around Europe, as a backpacker. And it started off as a well-intentioned holiday, with the view of being a tour guide, having some fun, seeing the world, seeing some different cultures. I loved it. I visited London, I fell in love with London, I love the UK. As I continued my travels, and started to run out of money, I decided I loved London, so why not go back there? I felt pulled, it had some good energy. I'm a big believer in getting those feelings. The best book I've ever read in my life in my career is called The Alchemist by Pablo Coelho. And there's a big thing, three set themes throughout the book, which is follow the omens. If you feel something, if you feel a pull towards something, if you get energy towards something, just go with it. You technically might not know the answers at the time but if you go with it, go with the vibes and you never know what's going to happen. And as they say, the rest is history. I got here. I was living in a hostel, a backpacking hostel, I had no money, I started door knocking for jobs, I got a job, worked my way up in the digital marketing community, thought I could do it better and took my idea on The Apprentice – and one thing just led to the next. I sit here today, and all these amazing things have happened. It kind of just feels like the click of the fingers or a blink of the eye. I'm Lord Sugar's business partner and I own all these companies. It's hard work, having goals, and almost it was preordained to a certain respect. Anna: You've talked about being a real goal setter, knowing where you're going to be 5-10 years’ time, but that seemed like quite a spontaneous move. Mark: Yeah, I think, how they say the biggest things happen outside your comfort zone? I think the biggest killer of people's success is comfort, staying in their mediocrity, getting comfortable doing things that don't necessarily challenge them, but make sure they stay safe. It's really easy in our society today. Particularly, what, in Australia, where I come from and in the UK and America, it's really easy to stay comfortable in the middle part of society. Every time I've gained any success in life, whether that's leaving Australia with no money and backpacking, giving up my job and my flat to go on The Apprentice, taking loans to start companies, whatever it might have been. Every time I've achieved something in my life, it's been from pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Just reflecting on that, Steve Jobs, who's the photo behind me, who I am in love with, basically. He always said you can – it's easier to connect the dots looking backwards and it's so true in my life, when I look back at any success I've had, yes, it's from setting goals and knowing where I want to be in life and focusing on who I want to be and what I want out of life, but also pushing myself to do things that I’m not necessarily comfortable with. With your jumping in and doing things attitude, where do you stand on things like MBAs and business education qualifications? What role could be play in somebody becoming an entrepreneur? Mark: It's an interesting question. I would much prefer the people I employee to have MBAs and the infrastructure and theory of growing and scaling and managing a business. As an entrepreneur, what I've found is that it's more the risk-taking the big-thinking and the strategy of the company that I'm responsible for. The funny thing is, most of the great entrepreneurs haven't written courses, they haven't written MBAs, and you can't teach what it takes to be a great entrepreneur, because a lot of it is instinct. A lot of it is huge, unsustainable risk-taking that wouldn't make sense if you saw it written in a course. I've never been to university, I don't have any formal education or degrees, or any of that sort of stuff. Listen, I haven't done it, but that's not to say that it doesn't work. I think knowledge is power and information is really key to success. Now, a lot of people do have degrees and have been successful, a lot of people don't, it's more just what's inside you as an entrepreneur: are you driven? Can you work consistently? Are you prepared to take big risks? Do you understand the industry or the business that you're in? That's the key – doesn't matter about what degree you've got. You can have a degree, you cannot have a degree, that's not a dictator of success. What is, is are you an expert in what your field is. If you are an expert, and you've got good work ethic, and you will stay in your industry long enough, you will eventually be successful. Great. You've said in the past that it's your bullish attitude that helped you get through The Apprentice. I wonder how your level of bullishness was at the beginning when you applied versus at the end of the show. Mark: I've always had a healthy distribution of confidence, I would say and that confidence, some would describe as arrogance. I would say healthy confidence has given me a bullish strength and approach in business generally, throughout my whole career, whether it's been in interviews, on The Apprentice, in business deals – and that confidence in either negotiating a deal, winning The Apprentice, is so powerful. I believe the key to higher performance is high self-confidence, high self- belief. Before you start working on other things, you need to really work within yourself to be confident. If you believe in yourself, and what you're selling and what you're doing, other people will buy into that, whether that's your employees on the journey, whether that's a banker to give you a loan, whatever it might be, that self-confidence is so important. I think I carried this air of confidence in from day one of The Apprentice through to the final and Lord Sugar and the other judges could sense it and I think also the other candidates could sense that and it's a pretty powerful tool in The Apprentice, but in business as well. And in your profile, when the series was broadcast, and under ‘what are your worst business skills?’ it says, ‘I have no bad business skills’. Would you see those still true now, with hindsight? Mark: Haha, you've really done your research. I mean, you do say some things on there that you look back and you get a bit of a tingle of embarrassment because you say some crazy stuff to be entertaining on the show. But, do I have any bad business skills? Listen, there's always things I can improve on. But I would say my gift in life is business. I'm passionate about business. I love business. I've studied every facet of it from small, medium, large, great entrepreneurs of all time. Listen, some people can play a musical instrument like you've never heard, some people can run 100 metres in ten seconds and under. My gift that I got was being brilliant at business. And that's my thing. I'd like to say I have no bad attributes – I'm sure other people would challenge that, but it's the thing I love in life. And I believe as well that you took forward this absolute commitment to business, to your business and to creating it and making it a success. But it reached a point where you were extremely stressed, burnt out, even to the point where one of the Lord Sugar’s aides approached you and said, ‘When's the last time you took a break, went to the gym. Tell us about getting to that point and how you felt. Mark: Listen, I think when you create a start-up business, I think the start-up journey is the hardest area of business. I own businesses at all different levels of turnover size, staff numbers and investment levels. For me, the hardest journey was that ‘zero’, starting a company, registering at Companies House, and going from zero to whatever. It's so tough. In the first two years of my business, I pretty much didn't have a day off. I wasn't sleeping enough, I wasn't eating well, I was drinking too much. It was because the work that was required in terms of stress levels, hours and just general demand of creating systems and processes in the business, signing up customers, keeping those customers happy, employing staff, getting equipment, getting investment. It was a very hard process. I gave up my life for the first three to four years for the business. The first two I wasn’t in existence to people who knew me. And I was working every hour that God gave, and it was tough. It was really tough. It wasn't good for my health. It wasn't good for my relationships. We talk a lot about work life balance, okay? You can love business, you can love what you do. But you do need to find time. It’s no good – as Lord Sugar's advisor told me – being the richest guy in the graveyard, and just dropping dead at work one day. You need to be able to create a life that you can live healthily. That was that was hard-hitting advice from a billionaire’s advisor. They’re saying that so it must be true, I thought. So, I've made more time to have a bit of balance in my life, so that the success is sustainable. Anna: I suppose it can be a cultural thing, especially in the UK. I mean, there's this real pressure from various different places, very much social media included in that, you need to keep going, keep hustling all the time. So I'd imagine that's not exactly helpful. Mark: You're right, we live in a culture of Instagram, of social media, where you go on there and you hear that if you work 100 hours a week, that's the way to get a million pounds and all of this stuff. A lot of the people that are saying this don't have a million pounds, point 1. Point 2 is you can work 100-hour weeks, but for how long can you do that? Oh, and Sugar is very proud of telling people that he is a multi-billionaire who is only at work Monday to Friday. He's never worked a weekend in his 50-year career. And I think that is really powerful because he's got the proof of the pudding. He is successful, he is famous, he is wealthy, but he has work life balance. And he'll tell anyone who listens. ‘I don't work weekends, I work Monday to Friday, and I work harder than anyone Monday to Friday.’ In my head, I know on Friday evening, as I'm driving home, that is it, my brain switches off, I spend time with my wife and my family. Then on Monday morning, I'm back to it. I think giving yourself in your brain that time to recharge, to relax, to create ideas, but also to spend time with your loved ones and just switch off. Burnout is a is a real thing. It's the same with a light – if you leave it on all the time, it'll eventually burn out. Your mind, your brain and your body are exactly the same. Sleep debt and all of those things are real, legitimate causes for business owners not making it. One of the things that we've noticed in this lockdown, and one of the things that's been key to many small business owners – often by necessity – is that when their physical buildings have closed, they've really amped up their digital marketing and their online presence. But now, as trading restrictions are beginning to ease, they're moving back into their bricks and mortar businesses. How would you recommend that they keep up that momentum of their online presence with their existing resources as they move back to bricks and mortar? Mark: Well, there's been a lot of good lessons in the pandemic, and I'm speaking purely from a business perspective. On the health side of it, it's been terrible, there's no doubt about that. But from a business perspective, it has shown us the good industries, the good businesses. It has also shown us areas where we can improve our business. It’s because a business that is reliant on a singular location that cannot trade because of something like a health pandemic, probably isn't a great business, so we need to be online.   Yes, having a shop and a store is a great customer experience, and something that we should never lose. But we need to have a blend of both. And when, if you've got good systems and processes, you can have the best of both worlds: a customer in-store experience, a high street experience, and also an online 24 hours, seven days a week business. You should actually be more profitable and more dependent with your business. But it comes back to systems and processes. The problem with online is that it never switches off. And that means as human beings where we can go in and check out an ecommerce store 24/7, we can check the Google Ads 24/7 and all of this stuff, but you've got to have people, processes and systems so that you still work normal hours. Anna: Absolutely. What kind of things do you have in mind? What kind of systems? Mark: I use tools for social media posts, scheduled tools, I use software to check all my marketing campaigns, suggest changes and do low-level stuff automatically. All my email marketing campaigns for my econ businesses are done weeks in advance, and it's all just scheduled into software. So rather than sitting there at eight o'clock, ten o'clock, nine o'clock on a Saturday or a Sunday, it's all done on the Monday ready for the Saturday. It's just using tools and technology to make sure that we're actually working. I hate this phrase, but I'm going to use it now: working smarter, not harder. Just making sure that we're doing stuff, just not working 24 hours a day because the internet allows us to. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we before we go? Absolutely not. I think it was it's great that there's podcasts like this. All I would say, to any business people out there that are listening to this is get yourself a mentor. If I've learned anything through my process of business, it is surrounding myself with great businesspeople that has enabled my success. Deals and success falls off other successful people, but to knowledge falls off them. And generally, when a business owner or an entrepreneur is failing, it's not through a lack of resource or finances – it’s lack of knowledge. And it's podcasts like yours and having a good mentor that really help people get over the goal line. So yeah, that's really it. And I think it's going to be a good time ahead. Where would you recommend finding a mentor? Mark: Well, there's this amazing tool called LinkedIn. Anna: Ah, yes – I’m familiar! Mark: And what I recommend is a good mentor is someone that's been there, done that and bought the T-shirt. And I always recommend someone that's either business or industry specific. You can go on to their LinkedIn, follow them on social media, see where they're speaking next, where's their next event, where's their next conference and go there, track them down and ask them to coach you, mentor you, even if that's through giving them equity in your business or paying for their time. Knowledge really is the key to scaling up a successful business. And if you've got the right people at board level of your company, it's very hard for that company to fail. And it's been a big lesson for me on my journey, and I hope that helps other business owners as well. How much equity would you suggest? Mark: It depends how great the mentor is. I mean, I've got Alan Sugar, and I gave him 50 per cent. I mean, the most amount of equity you'd want to give any shareholder is probably 50 per cent, 49 per cent, and you probably want to come back from there. For someone that's just going to attend board meetings, you're probably looking at five per cent-ten per cent. If you're looking at someone significant, that's going to be, taking an active role, 30 per cent. But it depends on the size of your business and the size of their input as well. Anna: That sounds like a good place to wrap up, so I will leave it there. But thank you for coming on the podcast, Mark. It's been fab. Mark: Thank you so much for having me. You can find out more about Mark at climb-online.co.uk. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more on digital marketing and the pros and cons of business education. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lower case) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

Chances Are Good That You Have An Ancestor Who Came Through Ellis Island. Welcome to April 17, 2021 on the National Day Calendar. Today we celebrate tracing our family roots and cheesy poems.  On New Year's Day in 1892, Ellis Island opened as the point of entry for Europeans coming into the United States. Annie Moore, a 15 year old girl from Ireland, was the first immigrant to enter the country through Ellis Island. She and her two younger brothers began what would become a mass migration from Europe. Over the next few decades, people came to the United States from far and wide. Some were fleeing violence and political upheaval and others were looking to build a new life. By the time Ellis Island closed in 1954, more than 12 million people had come through its facility. It's impossible to state the impact that this had on the growth and culture of this country. We celebrate National Ellis Island Family History Day by remembering these brave immigrants and tracing our own family histories.  Marlo: Oh delicious cheese Shaped into heavenly globes Bring me some crackers. Anna: Did you just make up a haiku about cheese balls? Marlo: Of course I did. I love cheese balls. Anna: I don't know what to say. That's pretty cheesy, but actually a really nice haiku. Well done. Marlo: Thank you, Anna. I love cheese, no matter what shape it takes. And today is National Cheeseball Day and National Haiku Poetry Day, so I am celebrating through poetry and of course by eating some cheeseballs. Anna: You're a cheeseball.

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

In this episode I talk to Merlin Griffiths, pub owner, mixologist and bartender on Channel 4's First Dates. We discuss current difficulties in the hospitality industry and how you can cut your costs.  You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on running a hospitality business and the latest COVID-19 measures. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. We've paired up with Smart Energy GB to bring you this episode.  Would you prefer to read Merlin Griffith's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Merlin Griffiths, pub owner, mixologist and bartender on Channel 4’s First Dates. Merlin grew up in Cheltenham, Gloucestershire. He used to own the Priory Tavern in north west London, with his wife, Lucille. These days he runs Maltsters Country Inn, located in Badby. Cocktails are a staple speciality on Merlin’s menus as he’s been a bartender and mixologist for 20 years. He first appeared as the bartender on First Dates in 2013 and the show is currently on its 14th series. We’ll be finding out a bit more about him as well as the challenges facing the hospitality industry.   Anna: Hi Merlin. Merlin: Hi Anna, thank you for having me. How are you doing? Anna: Of course – I'm doing very well, thank you. How about you? Merlin: Yeah, yeah, all things considered, well, I think, yeah. Now, many of our listeners would recognise you as the man behind the bar on First Dates. Tell us more about how you got into the hospitality industry and then onto the show. Merlin: Hospitality – what a trade to be in! It's one of those things, isn't it? Do you plan to go into hospitality? Some people do they really do? I don't think I did. I was quite young, when I first started working as what we call a barback, up in the West End of London. I think I lucked out by getting into the right bar at the right time. This was just as that cocktail renaissance was starting to happen in the mid-90s. Yeah, for me, I mean, it was one of my first jobs in London. I was just happy to have a job really, to work all hours all days or, yeah, do just about anything necessary. You know, it wasn't probably until about five or six years in and you start going, ‘I'm still doing this?’ This is more than just a stopgap of a job, isn't it? Yeah, I think this is now officially a career. And yeah, that's where it's led to now via corporate money. I had a good stint working for five-star hotels out in India for Taj hotels. I was living in Bangalore for a good while. From there, I was headhunted into Bacardi Global, as one of their global ambassadors for Bombay Sapphire gin and Oxley gin at the time. That was a great experience – almost four years bouncing around the world teaching people how to make martinis and from there into pub ownership. It was at that point where we suddenly thought, my partner and I, we’ve been looking at this, and especially on my travels – I've been in America loads – I have this idea that a good American neighbourhood bar, you can still get a really well-made Cosmo or Margarita as well as decent draft beer. And I had this idea that why can't you do the same in a sort of a British pub setting, you know, the cocktail side of things, the drink side of things shouldn't really be mutually exclusive. Cocktails and cask ales, quite literally. So that's sort of where we started cocktails and cask ales and no screens and no machines, because I decided there were enough TVs in pubs at the time as well. Pubs should be sociable. And so that's what it led to that. And it was while doing that, there was a job advertisement for Channel Four. They were looking for a bartender. That's it, it was literally advertised as a job and I was like, ‘Okay, I think I could pull out a small amount of time to have a go at that too’. And I was lucky enough to land it – it’s a fantastic role which I've really, really enjoyed. Just out of curiosity, how do you get headhunted as a barman? What kind of things are they looking for and who approaches you? It’s an odd one, you see, because the social media side. You go online these days and you can find loads of really good bartenders up and down the country and all around the world. There's a really developed network nowadays. But we're going back ten years and it wasn't as developed as we know it now. For me, moving into the job of First Dates, for instance, I was very lucky thanks to the Bacardi Global support. I've done a whole bunch of videos of online training and bits and bobs for them at the time. If you if you literally just search ‘find me as a cocktail bartender’, there were about three pages of me making nice and dry martinis, and Tom Collins [cocktails] and so on and so forth. So really, I think, you know, a certain amount of luck, but at the time. These days, you really have to work hard for it. Anna: I imagine it's not just the showy, throwing bottles over your shoulder and setting things on fire, either. Merlin: No, but that's also fun. Obviously, I was never much of a flair bartender. For me, it always has been about customers and customer service. That's the real key for me as a people business. And I've always said that. The clues in the name hospitality: we’re hospitable. And that's genuinely what we get up to here. It's not about how well can you can mix a martini or how well you can keep your cask ale, all of that. At the same time though, what's really important is how you deal with people, I don't like to use the word customers – ‘guests’ is better. You know, how you deal with your guests, who become friends as well, your local community, especially in the pub game. There is loads to think about when it comes to running a pub. When you took on Maltsters, it was in pretty bad shape when you took it on. How did you turn it around without blowing your budget? Merlin: Slowly but surely, evenly divide the task up piecemeal, otherwise these places can become. Anyone who's taken an old pub or an old, an old tumble-down pub. Why call nil-premium size, anyone who's done that journey knows what I'm talking about, when you have to divide up the task because otherwise it can become overwhelming. Unless you've got unlimited budgets and contracts as to throw it all in one big hit, which let's face it, most of us don’t. I know that at small business level we tend to sort of bootstrap our way up. First things first, yes, I'm going right what obviously, I need to get the kitchen, clean, comfortable, hygienic. Once you do that, we need a basic bar and trade area. So they're the first two things you look at, then we start looking at upgrading the function room, then we start looking at doing the gardens, then we can start looking at doing any of the letting rooms that are available here and things like that. Slowly but surely, now we're only just over three years into our journey here. There's still lots more to do. But you just take it one chunk at a time and make it manageable. One of the things I noticed when I was looking around was that the TripAdvisor reviews before you took [the Maltster] on were also not great, they tended to be one star. How do you recover from these kind of bad TripAdvisor reviews (or other platforms that are similar)? Merlin: I don't know in all honesty. I don't really keep an eye on that side of it. I'd rather keep my eyes on the people that are coming in and the customers that I do have. I think it is as a small business, it's a whole other job managing online and especially getting involved in managing reviews. Some people do very well at it, my hat goes off to them. I decided that my efforts are better placed elsewhere in the business, in looking after those people that I can see in front of me and those people that phone me here to make bookings. Anna: Do you think it was worth would be worth hiring a separate person altogether to deal with that side of things?   Merlin: If you can afford it. I don't know if I can! I mean, that's what sort of segways neatly to the work I've been doing with Smart Energy GB as well with this guide advice. I mean budgets are tighter than ever at the moment. Crikey.  You’ve been vocal on Twitter about how the government has been handling measures affecting the hospitality industry during the coronavirus pandemic. What do you think of the action being taken and what measures would you like to see? Merlin: Honestly, I don't think it's my place to say yay or nay. It's too easy to bash any point of view that people might have at the moment or any approaches that have been taken, realistically, as a small business owner from talking, honestly, so much of it's out of our control. And so much of it is out of my control, at the end of the day, whether I agree with things or not. And in all honesty, what I've really spent since March and up till now doing is looking at what I can control, because it's so easy to feel helpless in these situations. It really is, you know, when you're faced with ever higher hurdles to jump, ever more onerous bits of legislation to go through. But with the help of peers as well, I stay in touch with a large network of publicans these days. One of our groups, we've got about 250 of us chatting away. And it's lovely to be able to bounce ideas off each other and get advice about ways of doing things. This helps you feel more in control, honestly. That's really useful. Because otherwise, it's very easy to get quite down about the whole thing, angry and shouty, or just generally depressed and withdrawn. And, yeah, it's tough. I'm not going to say it's easy. But nonetheless, by approaching this with the idea of what can I control, it certainly makes you feel a little bit better. Ordinarily, I’d be asking about what small improvements hospitality businesses can make to improve and grow, but unfortunately the situation is different right now. What advice do you have for these business owners to get through this time, both professionally and personally? Merlin: I'll start with the personal one. You know, honestly, for me, do one non-work activity that brings you joy, at least once a week. Honestly, it really does feel like we're hardwired to work 24/7, but it is important to try and do that one thing that's just for you, however much you convince yourself that there isn’t time. I cycle – that's my thing. I'll take a couple of hours each week and go for a long ride. I'll get, you know, I'm really sorry. I'm one of those weirdos who dresses up in Lycra. Anna: Oh no, I’m a keen cyclist myself – no judgement here at all! Merlin: I don’t know what age you turn into, what do they call it, a MAMIL (Middle-aged Man in Lycra)? Anna: You’ve got time yet! Merlin: Good, thank you. But honestly, seriously, what I say just do this one thing that brings you joy, even really, if that's something as simple as pulling yourself down to the local park, right, sitting on a bench in some peace and quiet with a cup of tea or coffee and reading a book or doing the crossword, whatever it takes just to try and remove yourself for a moment. It's incredibly important. I think whether people realise it or not, there's this underlying bubbling stress and tension, and especially more so as a small business operator these days. In the survey work that we've done here, as well as 69 per cent of changes in their financial situation has led to negative impacts on their mental health. So, all of that needs to be dealt with, somehow, it really does, before it bubbles over. You can't hold it in. Talk to people as well, you know, utilise your peer networks, really. Friends are really wonderful if you've got a good friend and will listen. But sometimes there are sector-specific things and business owner-specific things. It does help to talk to other people in the same situation in the same boat. Try and get involved in some of the groups that are out there, you know, maybe just to vent a little bit and get it off your chest. Anna: Yeah, I think as a business owner, sometimes you're inclined to put other people, namely your employees, first. Merlin: Always employees. They're like a little family. Honestly, they're extended family. Any small business person knows that, they're the biggest asset you have in your business, your team, your staff, your people. You’ve got to look after them. I mean, in March that was that was the first thing was stressed us – what are we going to do, that stuff we need to make sure they looked after? Like many of us, we looked at our cash flow and thought, ‘Oh, crikey’. Well, it's going to be a while before we get the furlough payments into pay them. So how do we go about this without also bankrupting the business? The true way to look after my staff is to make sure that they've got jobs to come back to as well. You know, and so yeah, we had some very frank and honest discussions with our staff, and they were absolutely brilliant. They worked with us and completely understood. I think we were incredibly lucky to have the team that we do, we really are. I love them all to bits. We've seen on the website that with the increased rate of redundancies, more and more people are interested in starting their own business. What would you say to somebody who wants to start a hospitality business? Merlin: It's hard work but go for it. Honestly. Put in the hours and you get the rewards, quite frankly. It's a great trade to be in. I think it's an absolutely great trade. I've been there – 25 years now behind bars and involved in hospitality in one way shape or form. And ten of those as a landlord. It is absolutely tremendous. I'd say that's awesome. Do it. You know, ONS stats say that 99.6 per cent of British businesses are classed as small to medium businesses. Anna: Most are micro businesses too. Merlin: Yeah, most of those are micro businesses usually. So, best part of six million. It was Napoleon quote who said Britain is a nation of shopkeepers, wasn’t it? Yeah, that hasn’t changed. You know, the small business is what makes this country tick. It absolutely does. It's so incredibly important. Absolutely important. And it's not just that, and it's not just the standards we hear about, you know, jobs in the economy and so on. This is families, livelihoods, children, the socio-economic impact here at a macro level is really far-reaching is incredibly important. It's really easy to sort of get the view these days that Britain's dominated by big business, but of course, they've got marketing budgets, and that's why you hear about them. But really, as you can see from those statistics, 99 per cent it's small to medium – all hail the little guys. I'm going to head back – we started this or with advice as well for small business owners. Let's have a look. What else have we been recommending to people? Controlling controllables is what I wanted to touch on, really. Rent, this is a really big one, but you've got to open conversations with the landlord, haven't you at the moment. Trust me, it's tough to keep calm, but you have to keep calm and do that with a level head. Yeah, again, staff you need to control. This is looking after them in the best ways possible. And now if you're doing this alongside changing your business as well, hopefully, maybe you could find other ways to pick up some hours for staff if you're been exploring the possibilities to go. Normally I serve a bit of food or a bit of drink, but suddenly, well, now you start looking at your site going, ‘I got a licensed A3 space, it's a commercial site. What else can I do with it?’ This hopefully brings out new work, new workflows, new ways of operating, whether that's local groceries, setting yourself up as a sub postmaster, you might do local deliveries, hot takeaway, cold takeaway, there are so many different bits and bobs going on here. There are operators even doing full meals to cook at home from their kitchens, bathrooms being sent out, that there are so many different things. But these are good ways to assure your business so you can provide the hours for your staff. And then you start looking at utilities, get a handle on utilities, and honestly, there again, they're an important part of what you do. And this is where you get into this idea of marginal gains. I'm a big fan of marginal gains, they are a great thing as long tail effect, because if you do enough of them, they actually start adding up to be a significant gain for your business. Anna: If people want to make those marginal gains, how would they go about that? One of the clearest easy wins, contact your energy supplier and see if you can get a smart meter. I think it's a really good, sensible thing to do. up to date information on how your business is running and how much things are costing is essential now more than ever. This is more than just turning lights off. You could start controlling your stock levels, your exposure, and that sort of sense. Tighten up your menus to focus on the crowd pleasers and the profitable dishes and so on. I want to know how much stuff costs to run now, I really do. I've got a sneaking suspicion that I'm going to be able to save a fortune on extra kitchen extracts and some of the electrical hardware in the kitchen, especially, you know, I'm interested to look at when my chef turns this on, when he turns it off, is it actually necessary at certain points If I can save maybe eight to 12 hours’ worth of electric a day, and trust me, you're talking high kilowatt devices here. Ronnie, you know, he was running an electric pizza oven, for instance, out there, they know this is a 12 kilowatt device. Yeah, this isn't small beans we're talking about anymore. These are ways of controlling what you can, knowing that you've trimmed the fat, made your business lean, all those little these things, again, tend to be little things that are going on. They also tend to be at normal trade times, tends to put these things on a back burner – ‘Oh, yeah, I must have looked at that one point’ or they’ve got a whiteboard in the office or a Post-It note somewhere or a to-do list or what have you. And you sort of eventually get around to them. Now is the time to dive into all of that stuff and start getting a really good handle on what you do and the way you work and being prepared to change as well. We all have to adjust. Anna: Yes, it’s also amazing what some small business owners have done in adding in new kinds of services. Merlin: Yeah, it's fantastic for the rural side of things. I'm loving the fact that loads of rural pubs, for instance, are reinstating lost village services like post offices and shops. The fantastic thing is if you look at them as standalone things, I can see why they largely closed in a lot of small villages. It's very difficult to make a profit as a small village shop, given the cost of renting a building, and so on and so forth these days. If you're already doing that as a pub, and you've got the space to expand to a retail offering, right now it's a given win and you're engaging with your community now in new ways, by restoring the services, it’s fantastic. Let's not forget a lot of rural communities as well have people who will be shielding in certain ways or you know, just sort of largely keeping out society's way. So, a chance for them to literally just be able to walk down to the end of the street and get a bottle of milk or something without having to go into town is huge for them. Absolutely huge. Anna: Is there anything else you'd like to add? Merlin: I tell what I will add. Really plug into these hospitality networks, the industry networks, take advice where you can get it, speak to your accountant. If you don't have an accountant, take free financial advice from your bank as they will always be happy to give it, but wherever you can, take that advice. The more people you speak to, the more you suddenly realise you're not alone in all this. And there are ways still to sort of keep the glass looking half full, even though it may look half empty, if I can be so frank. But we are, as I say, creative, resilient, adaptable, this is hospitality! Challenges are something we routinely rise to, something we're very good at overcoming in this business. Anna: Well, that seems like the ideal note to wrap up. Thank you very much for coming on the podcast, Merlin. Merlin: Thank you so much for having me on, Anna, thank you. Watch Merlin in First Dates on Channel 4’s catch-up service, All4. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on COVID-19 measures and running your hospitality business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Description: Candidates with non-traditional backgrounds often get the short-end of the stick when it comes to applying for job positions. How often have we seen a company require 3-plus years of experience for an entry-level position? Does it really need to be that way? The hiring process is broken, and biased, and our co-hosts share why searching for those ‘unicorns’ or someone that checks all the boxes isn’t the best approach. Candidates have a lot more options now that everything is remote, and high-quality talent is slipping through the cracks. Here’s how you can think differently about the hiring process and adapt to this new world. Key Takeaways The hiring process is badly broken! Companies are looking for ‘unicorns’ and aren’t always realistic about their requirements. Does someone really need 10 years of experience to be considered quality talent? By being too senior-focused with your talent, you end up with a very top-heavy organization that doesn’t want to take on the smaller ‘boring’ tasks. You can’t have a team composed fully of senior unicorns if you want your organization to run effectively. One of the ways the hiring process is broken is because recruiters are looking for things you’ve already done and are not necessary looking for the right soft skills (curiosity, growth mindset, etc) that actually gets the job done. Larry has seen companies that have wanted all of their talent to have innovator mindsets. No, you don’t. Products have different life cycles and you need stability to maintain those. Anna has struggled with applying for jobs the ‘traditional’ way because she doesn’t check the right boxes and the automated system rejects her. Some of Larry’s best talent didn’t have a formal education. They were self-taught and they took on initiatives by themselves. The moment you have to upload a resume or CV onto a website, you are already going to be blocked out. A manager is there to be in charge and to help everyone be accountable, but one of the things companies have lost sight of is that a manager is also there to develop talent. Some of the dumbest people Trip has ever worked with have gone to Harvard. They were book smart but they couldn’t work well with others. Larry told his team to always look for intelligence, adaptability, and attitude. If you have those, a good candidate can do almost anything. The hiring process doesn’t stop when the employee starts. You have to court them for the long haul if you want them to stay. Why is the hiring system so broken? Why did Trip enjoy Amazon’s hiring process? He was on close to 300 interview loops at Amazon. How can managers better hire excellent talent, remotely? You also need to sell the candidate on why you’re a good company to work for. Candidates have more power than they realize! You can be picky now that working digitally has opened up. Trip has never regretted a job he didn’t get, but he has regretted a few he has gotten. He ignored the red flags. Hiring isn’t easy. It’s one of the riskiest things you can do in the business. Resources Thebraveworkforce.com Bravenewcompanies.com Quotes “10 years of experience doesn’t get you a 10X better candidate. There's a top out where you don’t get that much better at the core skill set.” — Trip “We’re not actually looking at whether a candidate has the right systems, like resilience, growth mindset, and curiosity. That’s who you want to hire. We have a tendency to filter those people out because they don’t check boxes.” — Trip “When it comes to the educational piece, if you don’t have it, it’s not a death sentence.” — Anna “You can be choosy, you don’t need to be forced through a very toxic environment just because you feel like this is the only place in your area that will hire you. As we open up into remote, there are so many more options you can pick from that will treat you well.” — Anna “We need a full spectrum of people. We want entry-level folks coming in fresh out of college, we want people who don’t have college degrees, more diversity of thought, and we want senior people.” — Larry “Some of my best talent that I ever hired did not have a formal education. They were self-taught, they bootstrapped themselves.” — Larry

In this episode I chat to Sherry Coutu, a serial entrepreneur, angel investor and one of the leading names in the UK digital sector. We talk about tips for investment pitches, time management and difficulties in the tech sector. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on raising capital. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read Sherry Coutu's podcast interview instead? Please note that this podcast was recorded before COVID-19 became prevalent in the UK. Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Sherry Coutu, a serial entrepreneur, investor and advisor. She’s also on the board of Founders4Schools, Workfinder, Raspberry Pi, the Department of Culture Media and Sport (DCMS), Pearson and the London Stock Exchange. We’ll be discussing the most common slip-ups that businesses make when pitching to investors and the most pressing issues in the digital sector. Anna: Hello, Sherry. Sherry: Hello. Anna: It’s lovely to meet you. How are you doing? Sherry: Yeah, I’m very well, thank you. Good to see you. Great. OK, I’d like to start off by going back to the beginning. As the intro suggests, your background is in digital and tech. You were a developer and programmer before you became an entrepreneur and an angel investor. What was it like being a female developer at the time you started out? Sherry: Well, I’ve never been a male developer. I think I came to it thinking it wasn’t that unusual being a female developer. I had studied at EF International and some other women had gone into digital when I was at the London School of Economics studying so it didn’t seem that unusual. I’d joined a large consulting company and that large consulting company had a number of women in that intake and we were all programming. It didn’t seem that abnormal to me. I was doing things that I thought were interesting and I was learning skills that I didn’t find that difficult and that I enjoyed, so it was pretty easy by and large. I didn’t know at the time how unusual what I was doing was or would be seen afterwards. When did that become apparent? Sherry: I don’t know. Again, I don’t approach things on a gender basis. I saw other people that I liked who were doing work that I enjoyed, and we had projects which were interesting. When did it become apparent? You do sort of notice that you’re often the only woman in the room, and it was probably afterwards that I thought, ‘Oh, that’s odd. It’s no longer 50/50 – it’s a lot less than that’. It didn’t bother me that much – I was pretty absorbed in what I was doing. It was really interesting work. It’s a good way to look at it and some women thrive on that kind of atmosphere as well. It’s a similar situation for investors. What were the most common pitching mistakes you saw from businesses pitching to you? Sherry: Well, I think there are a couple – I was thinking about your question earlier. And I think there's a couple of common issues. One is not researching. I'm a member of the Cambridge Angels and have been members of HBS Angels as well. And if an investor comes to you and they haven't researched who they’re in the room with, that is really common blooper, and it's not a sensible one. I think if I had advice for them, it's to research who you're pitching to and know what's in their portfolio and to know what they've what they've done before. I think, having somebody explain to me something that, clearly, if they'd looked at my background, they would understand that I knew. It's a waste of their time, whereas you can get into more detailed things right away otherwise. The other issue, something that is unforgivable to me as an investor is not understanding who your customer is. Or demonstrating your keenness to delight that customer. A lack of focus on that is really annoying to me. I think the only reason we are given opportunities as entrepreneurs is because we can delight customers and create things that will help them in their life in a multitude of ways. And I think a lack of customer focus is annoying to me. And it's usually makes for a fairly short meeting. And it definitely means that I won't follow up because, it's like, well, why are you doing this? The first question I'm often asking is why are you trying to solve this problem? Who are your customers? What does this do for them? Yeah, exactly. So, encouraging better work experience at school is a key focus for you especially just now, what kind of barriers do you think that small employers face when taking on work experience pupils? Sherry: Work experience for people in school and in university is something that I'm really keen on. I don't think of it as barriers. I think all small businesses have projects that they need to get done. You can ask a full-time permanent employee who's already working full tilt to do a project, or you can think, ‘Are there ways that I can get other people from outside my company that might have a fresh view, who I don't have to offer a permanent job to, to get this project?’ To me, the biggest issue there is as a small business person is finding people to do those extra projects that I really would like to do for my customers. Maybe it's so that I can be more obsessed with my customers and get them more focusing on a new product development or customers in a new country or in a new city. But I think that current students at university, supplemented possibly by students doing their A Levels, are a great way of getting projects done quickly and efficiently. And hey, you might even be able to hire the student who is doing the work for you afterwards. But we all have projects, we've all got dozens of projects. Maybe it's sitting down and thinking of which of the projects I have that would be suitable for five students doing a month or five students doing a couple of weeks, breaking it down into something that can be accomplished that will be meaningful to me as a business. Taking it back to the start, for an employer that has never done work experience before, has never offered a kind of programme of sorts – Sherry: They don't need a programme. They've got projects all the time. And we all have projects. I think there are big company ways of approaching work experience and there are small company ways of approaching work experience. The big company ways tend to be structured programmes that happen in June or July. And they might be quite cumbersome on the company. What I've seen work brilliantly for small companies, small and medium sized companies and start-ups and scale-ups are joining project teams, or all working on a project that the employer wants to get done that can't get done any other way. And that means that for the supervision of that project, you've got four people on it, but you put together the brief that might take you a tiny bit of time, or you could use Workfinder, we've got more than 100 briefs that are appropriate to ask students at university. You could take one of our briefs of, well, you might be thinking about this, here's how you do this type of project. You brief them on the first day, you touch base with them for half an hour just to make sure that they're going along the right path for the length of the project, and then you get them to present the project view at the end. I think it's great. And then you use it, because it's a project that will help you do something more for your customers that you haven't been able to do, because everybody's really busy. I mean, we always are pressed for time in small businesses and large businesses. Yeah, absolutely. What's the kind of state of things at the moment in terms of small businesses taking on work experiences? Is it quite common? Or could it be done more widely? Sherry: Well, I would love it to happen more widely. But it happens more often in start-ups and scale-ups than it does in large companies. We published this at the Gallup Institute earlier this year, that it was it was more likely that they had taken on students both at university and at school to do those extra projects in small and medium-sized companies. For me, I've got endless projects. I'd rather have a constant stream of people. And I think the other one of the other barriers is that large companies tend to do it in the summer, but when we spoke to small and medium sized companies, they had projects all year round, and they didn't want to be constrained to having to do it in July or something like that. With lots of other small companies that we work with, it worked fine around it Founders4Schools fitted in through throughout the year so that it works better with them. Anna: I suppose they have the advantage as well because They don't have the processes and the departments to go through that larger businesses do. Sherry: Yeah, exactly. And they may not and they'll have urgent projects that pop up, maybe it's a pitch, maybe it's a pitch for a customer and what you need is somebody to ask, ‘Well, can you do a bunch of customer research for me?’ We don't know these people, use Google, use LinkedIn. Yeah, help me put together this pitch. But there's lots of really good projects that help people who are at school and university understand what work experience is. It's deeply meaningful to the company, it also gives them a proper sense of what it would be like to work for that company. But it's risk-free because maybe it's a week, maybe it's two weeks, maybe it's a month and they can choose, they get the project done, they decide if they love it, or they hate it. If they love it, they can keep on talking if they don't love it, they can try different project and a different type of company and see if they like that industry better. Actually, as lately pertains to your expertise and for companies in the digital sector, and they're experiencing a lot of upheaval at the moment – politically, financially in so many different ways. What would you say are the most prominent issues affecting the digital sector right now? Sherry: Well, most recently GDPR was a change. I think was a change for the good because it protected consumers and customers and made sure that all companies were being mindful of whose data it was that they had the privilege of being a custodian of. So, I think I think there's that. In the UK, I'm not going to say that word [Brexit], but it's been harder. It's been harder to retain people from Europe for reasons that are outside of our control, and that's tricky. Attracting people who have the right skill set is also really difficult because there's been a sequencing issue with small companies, we create lots of jobs, but they are jobs in agile management and data science. Schools and universities aren't yet churning out people who have those skills. And I think solving that issue so that we small digital companies don't suffer from a skill shortage any longer is certainly very much on my mind. And I hope to make some contribution to that agenda. Anna: It feeds back into the work experience as well, doesn't it? You teach them as early as possible and let them know what opportunities are out there. Sherry: Yeah. And I think it’s understanding that you're not going to have the same job for 30 years, and actually, that really sounds quite boring anyway. Let’s sort of just assume that we need the framework for working here on this type of project for this type of company for a period of time and then we'll move on and we'll do something else. The needs of the customers will change. And our needs as we go through our own lifetime change as well. Often we'll work full time, we might work very flexibly when we're having children. And then once they're off at university, we might go back up to full-time or, like me, choose a portfolio of things, which is like having a bunch of part-time jobs, all of which I love. But I love the flexibility of this. If you listen to LinkedIn, the average person now has 25 jobs between graduation and retirement, seven different identifiable career streams. What's your next career stream? I mean, it's kind of neat when you think about it that way. What would you say to small business owners who maybe have trouble establishing what skills their workforce needs, and maybe the resources well, to provide them? Sherry: Well, I think there are some great online resources. For staff I use LinkedIn Learning quite a lot. For coding skills, there's Coursera, there's Udacity, there's Futurelearn, there's a lot of free online courses that allow us to upskill our staff. I think we all need to be learning all of the time. If we don't invest in ourselves as the leader of a small business and we don't invest in our staff then well, it might be harder to retain people, it might also be harder to fulfil those customer orders because they'll be asking us for stuff that we don't know how to do. I think I a commitment to continued learning and allowing and encouraging creativity in ourselves and in the people that work for us as a culture of learning is really important. Actually, now that we're touching on it. You fit a lot into your days and obviously, there's the continual upskilling as well. What kind of time management tips do you have for our listeners who may be struggling and a bit stretched? Sherry: I'm sure anybody who knows me doesn't necessarily think that I'm great at managing my time. But I try to. I think if you're a portfolio, it's quite helpful because you compartmentalise things and you're context switching. That keeps you fresh. It also keeps you managing quite closely. Something that I have used for a long time is trying to be at home 20 out of 30 nights, especially when the kids were at home and younger, being at home 20 to 30 nights a month. And if you've got that rule that you will be at home by 6pm or earlier if you can, that allows you to show the commitment that you have to your family and to yourself. I try to exercise as much as I should. I'm not sure I think probably in the last month, I have definitely broken my rule. But I've got I've got training set up in January, February and March and it's scheduled into my diary. I try to schedule things. I do try to review on a weekly and a monthly basis. Am I content with how I'm spending my time? And when I went to the rule of 20 or 30 nights at home by 6pm, I found that because there's so many interesting things going on all the time. And I wanted to do everything I literally did find myself out every night. And then you think, ‘My God, I haven't really seen my children. I haven't spent any time with my husband, and I don't feel good about that.’ And so I just sort of put a hard and fast rule and it's like, nope, this is how I'm going to do it from now and it works. Are you working when you're home at 6pm? Or is that a cut-off point when you stop working? Sherry: I'll stop working. Not necessarily for the day – I might go in and back on it between 10pm and 11pm and just sort of plan out the next day. I do tend to be crazily busy. Even if it's just planning out what you're supposed to wear, because you've got this little jingle jangle of meetings and you think, ‘Good Lord, what's going to navigate through that set of meetings of that day, what am I going to wear?’ Just sort of thinking about the how you're going to execute the next day, if it tends to be mixed up. I don't ever go to an office and sit at a desk. I think, ‘I'm going to be home with family. I'm not going to have my phone on, I'm going to focus,’ and that gives them the right message. And it also gives me the release that you need as a person from work. Do you rely more on people or tech to sort of help you organise your schedule? Sherry: Both. For the tech, I use calendar Google Calendar. I'm not making an advertisement for Google. But I think many small businesses use it rather than some of the more traditional ones. And if I'm meeting someone, I asked them to append in what the agenda is and what the papers are. My call forward file is not a physical call forward file that say, it's literally in the description of that. And I find that really helpful as I prepare for the meetings, I find the ability to invite people to meetings from within your diary. And then if you move it, they all get notified and you don't have to do all of that is really helpful. I do have an executive assistant (EA) who I adore and she's kind of a magician, because I tend to want to do too many things than might actually be possible, and she makes it a lot more possible than it might otherwise be. I do depend on her and enjoy the fact that she helps and is very au fait with and good at using technology as well, which is helpful to me. If you're a small business owner and you could have an entourage of sorts, what kind of people would you hire in terms of, say, a PA or an accountant? Sherry: Well, I would certainly use LinkedIn very aggressively. I probably am on LinkedIn two hours a day as I prepare for meetings as I research the people that I want to pitch these sorts of things are the people that I'm about to speak to. I think it's really important to use tools that are there. An accountant? Yes, you definitely need accountants. I think in small businesses, there are great part time accountants that you can that you can have. And I'm a real fan of those because you don't necessarily need a full-time one. And there's a lot of particularly women returners to work who have been full-time finance directors and they're there with kids and they want to work on a part-time basis. And I think they are a godsend to many, many, many small businesses. Anna: Seems to work for everybody, right? Sherry: Yeah, absolutely. You may be a small company of ten people, you might need someone who's doing finance a couple days a week well, you need somebody who's a returner, returning to work for that. And on PA I don't know if everybody needs me know, there's lots of people that I know that work in large tech companies that no longer have PAs there's many people who have the whole senior management team has a sort of shares in EA or a PA, I think many people and in fact, it's been shown that 65 per cent of those jobs have already disappeared because people are using technologies more aggressively. If you look at the research on what jobs are disappearing, sadly, PAs and EAS are definitely far less prevalent than they were five years ago, but I couldn't be without LinkedIn. I also use a service called Accompany which will sort of harvest your diary and then it'll give you notes about the backgrounds of the people that you're meeting the day before. And if you don't use it, you should use it because it's amazing. I find those I find those really, really helpful. Well, I realise you're busy lady, so I'll wrap up by coming back to your expertise as an investor. You were an early investor in firms like LoveFilm and Zoopla saw for new tech companies looking to pitch what would you be looking for in their pitch? Sherry: Well, for me, solving a problem that matters is the most important thing. I'm particularly interested in the future of work. It's been a real interest for 20 years that the skills crisis is getting worse. And I am interested in working with others to fix that problem, which I think is the number one problem that we have. I'm also very interested in the application of AI and ML in the sphere of health. And I think that, just around the corner, there are some great solutions to really irksome terrible problems of a health nature, that technology will help us solve. And people who are determined to solve those problems using technology will help themselves, so I'm particularly interested in those two areas. Some people shy away from them because they're complicated, and some people shy away from them because they're highly regulated. They're really important – the health of our citizens is really important, as is the ability to have the right skills so you can prosper and make a contribution to your community. I'm not that interested in hearing people pitch me on things other than those two sort of, they're fairly broad subjects. But those are those that what I'm really interested in and can be an active in what they call smart money, rather than just dumb money. I'm interested and can probably help in some ways as well. The health and wellness industry is massive. What would you say to entrepreneurs who are put off by a large amount of competition in the in the sphere? Sherry: Create a fantastic product that your customers love. That's way better than anything else, that they're either getting the way that, you know, 40 per cent of our GDP is controlled by companies that didn't exist five years ago. Think about that. What competition? There are really big issues that are absolutely unsolved. And we entrepreneurs, and the people who find entrepreneurs are the only ones who are going to solve it on the time on, on the timeframe that we've got available to us. So, I'd say, solve them. Do it. Anna: Fabulous. Well, that seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you very much for coming on podcast. Sherry: My pleasure. Thanks very much for having me and good luck with everything. Anna: You can find out more about Sherry at uk.linkedin.com/in/coutu. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on raising capital and managing your time. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode I meet Deborah Meaden, businesswoman, author and Dragon. We talk about her definition of success and what makes a disastrous investment pitch. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on pitching to investors.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Deborah Meaden's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Deborah Meaden, investor, businesswoman, author and one of the longest-serving Dragons on Dragons’ Den, second only to Peter Jones. She launched her first company at 19 years old, importing glass and ceramics and supplying UK retailers such as Harvey Nichols. She then took on a franchise of Stefanel, an Italian clothing company and sold it two years later. Next came her family’s amusement arcade business, where she went from shop floor worker to operations director before moving to Weststar Holidays. Within two years she became managing director and did a management buyout in 1999. Then in 2005, she sold the business for £33m. After deciding that retirement wasn’t for her, Deborah joined Dragons’ Den in 2006 and has since invested £3,746,000. Anna: Hello, Deborah. Deborah: Good morning. I’m still smarting for being called second best to Peter Jones! Anna: How are you doing today? Deborah: Good! Yeah, very good day – so far. Anna: Yeah, that’s it – you want to touch wood but unfortunately there’s not much wood in here at the moment…  Right, I’ll start off with something quite general. In the past you’ve said that you like success and successful people. How do you define success? Deborah: I can tell when someone is successful because they’re comfortable with themselves. And it’s odd because often when people think of success, they think of these driven people who are constantly reaching for bigger and more and more money and more profit and whatever. But actually, I consider success someone who’s reached that stage in life where they’ve thought, ‘This is great, this is good. It might not be great forever but I’m enjoying what I’m doing now – I’m having a great impact. And the thing that I’ve set out to achieve I’m achieving and I’m achieving well.’ That is my idea of success. You can tell when you’re around successful people – they enjoy it, they’re comfortable with themselves. Anna: So, it’s not necessarily financial. Deborah: It’s easy to say it’s not financial. Of course, in the early days when I didn’t have money, it was financial. But when you reach a level you can start thinking that money isn’t the be all and end all. The thing I always say about money is that it’s kind of the measure of business, or it has been in the past. It’s, ‘If I’m good at business, I make great profits.’ I think that’s changing and that suits me better. It’s more a case of, ‘What do I want my output to be?’ Of course, I’ve got to make money, otherwise I wouldn’t have a business. But do I want to have a social impact as well? Do I want to feel good about what I do? I’m much more comfortable in that space. Anna: Yeah, we’re seeing businesses move towards having more of an ethical basis in their business models, supporting animals, doing charity contributions on the side. Deborah: Yes, and I think it doesn’t have to be through charity, just behaving well. If you believe in something, it should be reflected through your business and treating your people well, being respectful of them. Making an impact in your community. Sometimes I feel the charity side can be absolving yourself of responsibility: ‘Let’s just give them the money and they can do the work for me!’ I feel there’s a bigger responsibility – we should all behave well in our business lives.            And no matter how successful you are as an entrepreneur, everyone has their own set of strengths and weaknesses. You said that when you were at Weststar, you lost some good people because you didn’t temper your approach to nurture them. Have you adapted to different personalities in the workplace since, and if so, how did you got about it?    Deborah: That is very very true. I’m very robust. And anybody who’s watched Dragons’ Den will know that I’m very robust. But what I mean when I’m robust is that I throw things out there and I’m hoping that people are going to challenge me. I’m not just saying it because I want everyone to go, ‘Oh yes, I agree with you.’ I put things out there and I want a lively, energetic conversation around the stuff. But I did realise early on that that doesn’t suit everybody. Sometimes I’d say things and they’d think, ‘Ohhhh, alright! Okay!’ They don’t debate it, they don’t discuss it with me. I think that’s part of experience: take yourself off transmit and receive as well as transmit. Anna: How did you put that into practice? Deborah: It’s a bit odd because, of course, life is about communication. I just realised I had a great group of friends that I communicate and debate with and I listen to and I think, ‘Why am I behaving differently at work?’ People are people – just because they happen to be in the work environment. Why don’t I just the use the skills I use when I’m outside of work? When you first meet people you sense them, you feel them out. Are they shy, are they very robust, are they gregarious? What are they? And you temper yourself to them. I just remembered to do that in the workplace and of course, the response was amazing. It just meant that people with a different style could find their style with me. We found a way of working together as opposed to [them] thinking, ‘I need to just shrivel up and leave the room because she’s said something that she obviously wants to happen!’ One of your greater strengths as an entrepreneur is your frankness. And we’re surrounded by so many options these days and plagued by indecision. How do you make good decisions as a business owner? Deborah: Well, the first thing is learning to make decisions, good or bad. It’s better to make a bad decision than it is to make no decision. In making no decision, you destabilise everything and everybody gets into this awful limbo land and thinks, ‘Ohhhhh, I really don’t know what’s going on’ and they lose the ability to make decisions. So learning to consider, know what you need to know, and the moment to say: ‘Right – I’ve heard enough, now I need to make a decision.’ I have watched people get trapped in this, ‘Oh, well I’ll just ask’ and ‘Maybe if we ask this’ and sometimes we get to a stage where we’re doing research and I’ll say ‘Okay, we need to stop the research now, because I think we know enough’. Otherwise, we shouldn’t be doing our job. The researchers aren’t going to tell us what we should do. They’re going to give us the information to help us make our decisions. We need to make those decisions. And coming back to different personality types, how would somebody who is perhaps less confident, less decisive – how do they make the most of their qualities as a business leader? Deborah: It’s interesting that you say ‘business leader’ because I was reading a really interesting book on leadership. It was saying that people need different leaders in different environments and at different times. If you think about the history of the country, we needed different people at different times and businesses are the same. Leaders are given permission to lead. It’s not like, ‘I’m a fantastic leader – I can walk into any environment and anybody will follow me.’ Because actually, if you don’t do a good job, I promise you that your permission to lead will be taken away very very quickly. People will just start finding ways around you. They’ll think, ‘You know what? They don’t know what they’re doing so I’ll carry on with my thing.’ So I actually think that knowledge and experience and proving that you’re good eventually attracts people around you. [They] work out really quickly, ‘Who is it that makes my life better because I can do my job better? I know they’re going to help me do my job better.’ Be good at what you do, be really helpful to other people. Recognise that you are all in this together because the more helpful you are, the more people look to you. We all think of leaders as these big strident people who are born leaders but actually in the wrong environment – and the wrong time – people will just say, ‘Oh, shush’. Anna: But sometimes people just need to be given the chance to come out and make those decisions. Deborah: Absolutely, and to get the feedback on those decisions. A lot of it is a lack of confidence. I’ve seen so many people sit in a room – and this has happened a lot since I’ve been on Dragons’ Den – suddenly, it’s like I’m the expert on everything. I’ve been on television, so I know everything. I’ve got confident, competent people who know way more about their subject than me, who will not stick their stake in the ground because they think, ‘Deborah’s in the room – she must know more than anybody.’ I’m like, ‘Guys, if I think I know everything, what am I doing sitting in a room talking to you lot?! I’ll just carry on, thank you. You know way more than me so could you just carry on making the decisions you made before the day I was on Dragons’ Den? It’s much more difficult now to get people to challenge me – and I love challenge. What’s the point of sitting in a room with people who are just agreeing with me? Anna: I feel like I should disagree with you right now, but I actually do agree!                   One of the companies you have invested in, ran into difficulty last year [the founder is no longer part of the company]. How do you know when it’s time to walk away from a business? Deborah: In the case of Gripit, it’s what to do. It’s come through and it’s selling to the US market. It’s when to stop or it’s when to say, in the case of Gripit, actually we’ve got a fantastic product here – no one ever questioned the product. So, what we’re going to do now is present it in a different way and have a completely different structure sitting behind it. I’ve got a feeling that if I wasn’t there, it probably would’ve gone. It was definitely in a very difficult moment in time. But I was able to see through that, underpinned by a product. What I do see sometimes is a product that is clearly failing. When you’ve got to wander around, holding up the product going, ‘Buy me, please please buy me’, that worries me much much more. If you’ve got a good product but the structure in which you’re selling it isn’t quite right, that’s a problem you can get through. If you’ve got a bad product and you’re having to work too hard to get out there, that’s the time to call it a day. You’ve got to understand why you’re at that difficult moment. Every single business I’ve ever been in has had a difficult moment and if you can’t work out what’s causing it – and see a way through it – that’s the time to stop. But if you can work out what’s caused it and think, ‘Oh, I can fix that’ then clearly, you need to carry on.      Anna: Coming back to Dragons’ Den, I’ve read that when you do a day of shooting you record six pitches. Most are about an hour long, but some are as short as 15 minutes while others are two hours long. What are the common themes run among the not-so-good pitches, the ones that tend to end after 15 minutes? Deborah: I’m not sure there’s a common theme. Sometimes it’s purely and simply: ‘That isn’t going to work’. It’s just, all five of us – and we’re all very different – but you’ve got a lot of experience sitting there, in a lot of sectors. And we’re not always right. Fantastic businesses go out there and prove us wrong, that’s brilliant, that’s fine. But sometimes you just think, ‘You have not thought that out’ and you fall at the first hurdle because what’s your market? How are you going to make it? What does it cost to make?        Anna: So, people come in with no idea… Deborah: Well, they come in with an idea sometimes and that is the problem: there’s a mile of difference between an idea and a business proposition. You’ve got to have something that I’m investing in – not just a thought. That’s one of the big issues.    Anna: Although that is to say that they’re quick because they’re weaker pitches than the ones that are longer and you want to know more. Deborah: Oh, absolutely. I think the shortest pitch I’ve ever seen is 11 minutes and it was a product where everybody was clearly just wrong on all counts. It was badly thought out, it was badly presented, there was no idea what the market was going to be, didn’t know what the cost of making it was going to be, didn’t know what the cost of selling it was going to be… that’s a quick pitch! There’s nothing to invest in here. I think the longest pitch I’ve ever been on was three hours. And to be honest, by that point you’re interested. We don’t sit there for three hours and don’t invest – we’re trying to unpick a business. Anna: Wow. What do you discuss in a three-hour pitch? Deborah: We’re trying to get to the stage where an investment is going to proceed because once we get out of the Den, not all of the businesses pass due diligence. I don’t want to waste my time or their time – life’s too short to agree something and then find afterwards, ‘Damn, if I’d known that I wouldn’t’ve made an offer’. So if you’re interested, it takes longer because we’re trying to eke out all of the things so it shortens the process. In my experience, when you come out of the Den, the longer it takes for that deal to get away, the less likely the deal is going to be. And I don’t want to walk out the Den and find out that actually, they haven’t got a patent, they’ve made a patent application. Or their numbers are wrong by a factor of 100. Or – this happens a lot – they have loans that were not disclosed in the Den. And I specifically ask now – people sometimes don’t count a Director’s Loan as a loan. Well, of course it’s a loan! It’s still a loan. So often we’ll come out and then find out that something wasn’t disclosed that should’ve been disclosed. Because in good faith, we’re both trying to find out about each other. And there’s no point me agreeing a deal in the Den and then walking out and thinking, ‘Ohhh, if only I’d known that, I’d have never…’ Anna: And you’re hoping to build a long-term business relationship so keeping stuff from each other at that point is never a good sign. Deborah: Actually, the deal just won’t proceed. We are agreeing to invest but between that and the investment is normal due diligence that you would do on any business. I might as well know in the Den what’s going on and if you haven’t told me something material, the trust is gone and I need to trust people. Anna: What’s the worst pitch you’ve seen in the Den? Deborah: Oh, it’s hard to tell. False fingernails for cats was a funny one. There was a fantastic – it was a guy who came up with an invention of a fold-out sunbed in a suitcase which you can take on holiday with you and take your suitcase down to the beach and then unfold it – because obviously people use all the beach chairs. You think, ‘You don’t seriously believe I’m going to carry a huge big suitcase on holiday with me.’ Anna: People only have so much checked-in baggage, you know? Deborah: At least he was thinking! Anna: Yeah, he can make one for himself. How about pitches that you turned down at the time but turned out to be quite successful after the show. Were there any of those that you thought, ‘Oh, I wish I got involved in that’? Deborah: I’m not an ‘I wish I had’ kind of person. I put everything into achieving the thing that I’m trying to achieve and if I don’t, I don’t. There will always be other opportunities. And I’m not just saying this: that’s the best kind of mistake to make. If you don’t invest in somebody and they go on and make a huge success, it’d be a bit churlish not to think, ‘Well good on you’. Anna: That’s a very mature approach to take. Deborah: We started off by saying I like success. I get no pleasure from seeing people fail. Even if a fleeting ‘I told you so’ crosses my mind, it’s very fleeting. Anna: I know for some people it must be quite difficult. Deborah: I’m actually quite hard to interview because people ask me, ‘What are you most proud of?’ and I honestly don’t know. I don’t really look back, I don’t worry, I don’t carry stuff around with me. Bad stuff has happened and at the time it was awful and two days later it’s gone. I’ve always looked forward. I’ve always been more interested in what’s coming up than what’s going on behind.                             Anna: And in the spirit of moving forward, we have a Budget coming up. What support would you like to see to support small business owners? Deborah: I would definitely like to see the EIS and SEIS schemes maintained, just in case there’s any consideration that they go. Because if ever there was a time for people to get their investment out of the bank and working with small businesses, that’s what we should be doing. We should be supporting them. What else would I like to see for small business? I think this is a very very difficult Budget because we still don’t know about the Brexit scenario and we have no idea on the basis on which that’s going to be very difficult to say what you want for a business when you don’t know what the landscape is. You asking me this question in a normal landscape, I’d say, ‘You can do A and B and C and help’ but I have no idea what we’re aiming at anymore. So I really don’t know which levers to pull. That feels really awkward for somebody who spends their life making decisions and working out what is the best thing to do now. Anna: Yeah – business owners are planning three, five, ten years in advance. They’ve just been at a point where they can’t. Deborah: Listen, we’re in a really funny time at the moment. We don’t know the landscape and we can only control what we can control. But I really do worry that there are some businesses that are really not looking at the potential pitfalls and preparing themselves for it. I’ve spoken to a lot of businesses who at first thought, ‘Well, of course Brexit won’t affect me’. That’s because they weren’t doing business in the EU, but they’re not really looking back through their supply chains, not understanding what could happen to the data within their business. There’s no agreement on data transfer. So, I think businesses should just look into themselves for a moment and think, ‘Actually, which bits of these could be affected in terms of a future trade deal?’ There’ll be a lot of stuff that’s left undone and you need to know your risk. With a lot of my businesses I’ve had to set up offices in Ireland, almost as an insurance to say ‘just in case we can’t directly trade with the EU without pretty hefty tariffs. I need to find a way of trading’. There are things you can do to mitigate on a best guess scenario – you’ve got to understand what’s at risk in your business.   Anna: That seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Deborah. Deborah: Thank you for inviting me. I enjoyed it. Anna: You can learn more about Deborah at deborahmeaden.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more insight on preparing for Brexit planning and how to pitch to investors. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

James: Hey, audience. This is James Kandasamy. Welcome to Achieve Wealth through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, I have Anna Kelley from Central Pennsylvania, who owns around 175 units, around $16 million in worth until now. And you know, I should have invested passively in 900 units. And she's also under contract on around 200 units right now. Hey, Anna, welcome to the show. Anna: Thank you so much for having me. Good to see you, James. James: Good to see you too. And, I mean, for those who do not know, we also have a YouTube channel that shows all our interviews. And you can catch up with us on iTunes or Stitcher or YouTube or Spotify so go and do that. I'm actually in one of my property here in San Antonio so trying to do it from my office. And Anna, are you in your office or where are you right now? Anna: I'm in my home. I'm not actually in my office. James: Yes. Good. Good, we work from home, I guess, right. Anna: Yes. James: So Anna, why don't you tell our audience about yourself? Anna: Sure. So I started out in real estate about 20 years ago, just kind of dabbling in real estate. And I started out doing some property flips and some single-family rentals. And then I slowly started moving up to small multi-unit properties, like four-unit apartment buildings, 10 unit apartment buildings. And I recently last May retired from my full-time career, I worked for AIG for 20 years. And I really built my real estate portfolio up on the side, part-time for all of those years. So busy mom, have four children. And I just went full time. And now I'm focused on and have been focusing on for a while much larger apartment building assets. James: Got it. So let's go back to the beginning. I mean, you work at AIG, which is a big insurance firm. And can you just quickly tell us what was your role? Anna: Sure. So at AIG, I had various different roles. I did internal management, consulting, product development, and then I moved into a role that was very compliance heavy. We worked with private placement hedge funds wrapped in an insurance product. So we worked on SEC audits and filings, reviews of PBMs and hedge funds and things of that nature. James: Got it, so it looks like you have some PPM level syndication experience, even at your workplace, I guess, is that right? Anna: Definitely, we worked with alternative investments for about 17 of the 20 years that I worked there. James: So you work there for 20 years and when did you start to real estate venture? Anna: Why I'd say, you know, I dabbled, I bought some, you know, singles and I bought a flip. And then 12 years ago, when I moved from Texas to Central Pennsylvania to start my husband's chiropractic business, we were looking for properties to lease for his office space. And we found that it was very difficult to do that. But they had a lot of buildings that came with tenants, you know. Older buildings on Main Street that had been converted to businesses on the first floor, most of them had residential rental space on the top floors. And so we bought a building and inherited tenants. We had three tenants with his commercial space. James: Okay. Anna: And then that kind of threw me into the idea of having tenants and having a little extra cash to cover the mortgage. And then at that same time, James, we sold a house in Houston that we lived in, liquidated everything, we had to come here and start a business. And so I knew it wasn't very wise for me to buy another home right away. And AIG let me work from home on a very temporary trial basis to see how it worked out. So I bought a four-unit apartment building for us to live in. So we downsize significantly and house hacked, basically, to make sure that our business expenses, you know, for the space and our housing expenses were covered if I happen to lose my job, you know, 12 years ago when we started out. So that got me into starting to think about and invest in residential real estate. James: Got it. So you basically, you did not like had an ah-ah moment, I need to go tomorrow and buy real estate. You were actually thrown into it? Anna: Well, I'll say this before I went to work for AIG. I was in private banking, I was a Financial Relationship Manager for Bank of America. And so I handled the top 10% of the wealth in our bank, both small businesses and individuals. And what I found is that many of them owned real estate and had accumulated their wealth in real estate or were already investing in real estate. So in my young 20s, I was very interested in real estate thought that it was something lucrative that one day I'd like to own, but I really didn't start thinking too much about it until I had my first child in 2003. And all the flip houses shows, you know, we're coming on and I thought, oh, I can flip a couple of houses and be home with my child. And so I dabbled in flipping before the rental real estate. But my move here is what kind of gave me the impetus to think about rentals more quickly. James: Got it. So, I mean, I never had a woman guest until now. So you are the first one. And I'm very -- Anna: Oh, thank you. James: We have a lot of listeners that are listening everywhere and I'm sure a lot of them are women. So I'm trying to get from a woman’s perspective, on how could they start like what GF started, right? I mean, your husband is working and you are working too. Like, I would say what do you think could be the secret formula, or they're just the formula on how can any woman start while they are in your own position? Anna: Sure, you know, there are different ways to starting, a lot of it James truly does depend on the personality of the person, your family dynamic. You know, how much support you have for watching your children? What other income sources you have, you know, when you're starting out? And how much basically time and money that you have available to get started? So, you know, people that have very, very limited time might have the significant cash flow or they might, their spouse might make enough money that they could really get started more passively. And that's where maybe they want to start investing in other apartments syndications or getting invested as a passive partner maybe joint venturing with someone that has experienced you know, buying and managing either a single or a small multi or a larger and then just investing with money. And learning how to review the financials and review the operations each month and each quarter. Just to kind of get yourself familiar with what it's like to own and manage an asset might be a good way to get started. For someone like me, that doesn't have any cash and really wants to get invested by investing time, you have a lot more opportunity to really educate yourself through reading books and through podcasts. And going to meetup groups to learn what it takes to ask actively, evaluate deals, find them and hire people to update them and improve the values and put a renter in or you can start learning the skills yourself. You know, my husband and I when we started out, he did a lot of the maintenance and I painted every unit. And I called flooring contractors and you know, designed kitchens and help paint cabinets. I mean, we did everything actively because we started out, we had liquidated all of our, you know assets and started out with quite a bit of debt to start a business and we're running that. So we really didn't have a lot of money. So we invest at the time. So there are many ways to get started. But I'd say definitely align yourself with other people that already know what they're doing, attend some meetup groups, listen to podcasts. And then just decide whether you want to be active or passive for your first one or two until you kind of learn what you like, what your personality works well with and kind of what works within your family dynamic. James: Got it. So who convinced who between you and your husband? Did he convince you to, hey let's go and do, spend time and rehab this real estate or did you convince him or how did you? I'm trying to understand how did the discussion happen? Because a lot of people are struggling, I mean could be struggling, right? How do I convince my spouse especially from a woman to the husband side? Usually, the husband can convince the wife, right? But you are the one who's active right now real estate, how did that work out? Anna: Yes. So it's one of those things when we talk about the personality of the individual. When you're married, there are two people involved in your decisions. And my husband and I, from the beginning, have always looked at our finances and our lives as a partnership. But we kind of has our roles in reverse. I mean, he's a doctor, he's a chiropractor, he went to school for a long time. He's very smart. But he's very hands-on and a people person, he doesn't like the finances, he's not financially minded. He's not the kind that wants to be an entrepreneur and grow a big business, like he's content, just having a small practice, and letting me handle all of the finances. So because I had a background in finance and understanding investments, I pretty much have always handled our investments. And when we decided for him to start the business, I kind of took over the operations and learned how to, you know, run a chiropractic business and set up insurance and all that kind of stuff while he was the doctor and saw the patients. And so when it came to real estate, I said, listen, we're starting out with a lot of debt after paying off all of the school that it's just not financially wise for us to do anything other than buying something so we have tenants helping to pay the rent. So it was easy initially to get Vincent to buy his practice and our building, just to be financially wise and not going into more debt. But growing that beyond that was definitely me as the driver, he was busy with this practice. He did not like to do maintenance, but he learned to do it and liked the fact that once we did rehab units, they were worth a lot more and we had a lot more cash and could keep buying them. But I've been told multiple times, slow down, pull off the brakes, we have enough units, why do you want to keep growing? And I am like because I'm passionate about it. And I'm passionate about the wealth that it can create. So I've been kind of the driver. And he's been very supportive and very hands-on for the 70 units that we self manage in our area. But definitely likes that I'm now buying much larger assets where I'm asset managing and he's not involved day to day in the management and maintenance of the properties. James: He must be very happy now. Anna: Very happy, yes. James: Yes, we started with 45 units. And my wife used to be sitting there whenever we were missing our property manager in the beginning, I mean, she was sitting there doing things and I didn't do maintenance. But, I used to be with her and trying to buy this and buy that and make sure you know the contractors are lined up. And it's a lot of work, but it involves teamwork. And yes, we are two different people, we have to learn how to work with each other. Anna: For sure. James: That's good. And so you started with 70 units, with the chiropractic real estate, right? I mean, is it like a commercial center? Anna: It is. It's a commercial mixed-use building. So there's a commercial space that his business lease's from my business. And it had three tenants, three, you know, residential renters and four garages to that property. James: Got it. So you got some kind of tax benefit, I guess because the [inaudible11:44] is leasing from the owner itself, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. James: So get some write off there, good. And how did you, I mean, so after that and then what was the next acquisition that you did? Anna: So James, as many people were affected by the 2008-2009 economic crash. Imagine working for AIG at the time and AIG, you know, coming in and having one of the largest insurance liabilities of any other provider in the country between mortgage insurance and credit default swaps. And I worked for them. So I had already, I had been working for them for a year on a work from home basis. And we thought we were going to be laid off, my stock went from 1-o-1 a share to 43 cents a share. My retirement funds were almost just destroyed. They were destroyed. I lost about two thirds within a week. And I decided, oh man, I'm going to lose my job. My husband has a brand new business with hundreds of thousands of dollars in startup debt and I'm the sole income. So what are we going to do? And the only thing I could think to do right away was to borrow from my 401k, about $50,000 that I had left that I could borrow and buy another four-unit because I thought at least if I buy another 4 unit, I'll have another, you know, $1200 to $1500 dollars a month of cash coming in. And that's in the asset, that is solid and stable that I won't lose any more in the stock market, no matter what happens. So that was my next acquisition. Again, it wasn't really thinking about oh, this isn't a phenomenal investment. It was, what can we do to survive? And I know that cash flow is a good thing. And that residential real estate will not go down in value significantly compared to the stock market. James: Got it. So after that four-unit, what did you buy the next one? Anna: Another four units. James: Okay, and when did you start with the 70 units where you self manage? Anna: Okay, so what we did, we self-managed, again, initially just out of necessity, not having a lot of extra cash, thinking our finances were not super stable because I was the sole breadwinner at that point. My husband's income was nice, you know in six figures gross, but it was covering expenses. And so we just we're continuing to find ways that we could cash flow and make the most cash and be willing to put in the time to do it ourselves and learn at the time. And so we kept buying a couple of single-family homes that we bought as foreclosures, renovated them and instead of selling them as a flip, we did a cash-out refi, we kept them as rentals, we took the proceeds to buy another and another. And then we did the same thing with small four-unit apartment buildings. So four-unit apartment buildings were kind of my niche and the sweet spot for several years chains. Because there were in a smaller area, I'd say maybe a tertiary market right outside of Hershey. And there's not a lot of apartment complex supply, no big complexes, but there's a lot of demand for housing. And so most of the rental real estate here were four-unit apartment buildings that had been built that way or converted, you know, couple decades ago. And there weren't a lot of big buyers buying those four-unit building. So they'd sit for a while. So I kind of I saw a niche where I could buy properties without having a lot of competition. And I could basically treat them like a larger commercial asset, but on a, you know, on a four-unit scale instead of a five or six-unit scale. And so I kind of honed my skill in updating those units, managing those units, raising the values, cashing out repeating. And then decided, okay, now it's time, once I built up, you know, a strong six-figure passive, you know, net rental real estate portfolio, then I decided, now I can retire and I can scale and start going after much larger assets. And so that's what I did. James: Okay, got it. So when was the first time that you acquired a much larger than four-unit property? Which year was that? Anna: Okay, so in 2018, I had basically created a five-year plan James in 2013, that by 2018, I wanted a $5 million portfolio, you know, about $150,000, at least in passive income, and then I would retire and start going for a bigger one. So I'm my goal in four years in 2017. And then just started kind of working my way into, you know, saving six months of salary and expenses for all my buildings and starting to look for larger deals. So I found the first larger deal for me, it was a 73 unit apartment building, right outside of Hershey, Pennsylvania, that I found off the market and I [inaudible16:20] on that with two other owners. That was a six and a half million dollar purchase 73 unit. And we closed on that in 2018. James: Got it. So how did you manage your time? I mean, your husband is working, and you are doing this fourplex, fourplex, fourplex and your four kids. And you give some tips for people who are in a similar situation and how can they manage and be as successful as you are? Anna: You know, I think really the key to my success has just been resilience and grit and determination. I worked truly, most people say oh, rental real estates passive. But I like to say and I totally believe James, that passive income is built on the blood, sweat and tears of active income. And it takes years of active, sometimes to build up the financial wherewithal that you can truly become totally passive. So between my husband's business and my work, and my rental real estate, I truly worked 70 to 80 hours a week over the last 10 years, in order to be able to get to where I am. My four children are all involved in sports, pretty competitive sports. So we have sports every morning, we have sports after school every day. And most days, it's seven days a week, you know, multiple tournaments on a Saturday and on a Sunday. So every waking moment when the kids went to school before I started work, I did real estate. My lunch breaks, I did real estate. My vacation days, five out of six weeks a year, I did real estate, you know, evenings between when the kids got home and I worked, it was real estate. And after nine when the kids were in bed, I often stayed up till midnight to get things done. So it was very time-consuming. But I'm very, very grateful that I stuck with it and did it. And it was just a matter of utilizing every day, I didn't watch TV, we didn't have cable, I didn't go do a lot of recreational things, I really, you know, not nose to the grindstone just focused on building the portfolio so that I could retire and spend more time with my kids. James: Yes, it's really hard work, I can really appreciate what you've gone through. Because I was working and my wife was like running around in the beginning. I mean, I only stopped working after we had like, 340 units. Now we have like, 1300, it's a lot of work, right. So based on what you're saying, it can be done. It's just like not, please don't give excuses, right? Anna: Exactly. I'm here to tell you, you know, if I can do it, working full time, running my husband's business, four kids and doing it, you know, anybody can do it if you just have grit and determination. So you make the time for what's important to you. And I knew that it was important to me to be able to work myself out of my job. And especially with AIG, you know, a couple of years ago, they said, we really are going to sell our unit, and we need to all be prepared to figure something else out in terms of career. So that kind of drove me to have executed my plan in a certain period of time. And now you know, that I'm retired, I'm still very, very busy. But I have the freedom to control my time, you know, to do what I enjoy and go after larger deals where I'm not having to be quite so involved in the day to day. James: Yes Can you define what is grit and determination in your mind? Anna: Sure, so grit is the ability to stick with something, no matter what comes, no matter what obstacles without basically, you know, melting into a wallflower. And just keep ongoing. And, you know, there's been a lot of studies done on what makes people successful. And you know, some kids were tracked from high school, through college, through their professional lives and they were really surprised that the top students like the valedictorian, the [inaudible20:04] rarely ended up actually being the most successful people in their professional lives. It was usually the people that went through a lot of hardships, and just kept going and push through and got creative and figured a way through and around every obstacle and became stronger and more confident, and determined. And those are the people that ended up the most successful. So I just I think it's an extra drive and extra determination and a willingness to keep pushing through no matter what and to not give up on your goals. James: Yes, so look, I mean, I always tell my listeners and whoever talked to me that it's always, you know, whether you want to be successful, or whether you like to be successful, whether you required to be successful so, I mean, if you have been this successful, you must have that, I really need, I really required to be successful. I mean, is that true statement that you came to that way? Anna: I think so. I grew up with very, in very humble means. And I always knew that I wanted to create a different type of lifestyle and a different financial future for my kids and I was just determined to do it. So I've always been driven, I've always taken on challenges. You know, my first job at Bank of America, I won the number one ranked Financial Relationship Manager in Texas and Employee of the Year awards at multiple jobs, my first couple of years. Because I've always had, that I'm going to be the best, I'm going to succeed, I'm going to achieve and do whatever it takes attitude. So I think part of that was ingrained in me from a young age. James: Yes, I think it's important, I mean, just the personality itself and the drive to be successful and the requirement; I mean, because your husband and your AIG was going downhill and you must be successful otherwise, your family, it may not be in a good place, in terms of financial. So that's really good. So describe to me, what was your toughest day in a one day when you have like four kids and all going to all these classes and schools and all that? Have any time where you think that, oh, my God, this is just too much for me as a mom and as a real estate sponsor? And can you describe that feeling and experience? Anna: Yes, I just actually, you know, Facebook is kind of a mixed bag of whether you like it, or whether you don't. But I like the Facebook memories that kind of pop up and remind you of something. And I had something pop up this last week, about a three day in the life of a real estate investor that works full time and has four kids. And I looked back and thought, well, I don't know how I survived it. But back in February of 2018, I believe it was, I had a call that there was mould in the basement and that they were smelling mould. So they opened it up and there was a lot, well, you know, I'm thinking it's probably like a dripping water heater or something we walked in and there was literally like six inches of goopy mould hanging from every rafter of every space in the basement of a three-unit apartment building with the ground floor, a dirt floor. And when we opened it up, I mean, it was just really bad. And what had happened was a hot water heater, pressure relief valve had failed in the basement, nobody seemed to notice nobody called us. The person in hindsight said, you know, I thought my hot water pressure was kind of low and not as hot. And I should have called you well, within about a six week period, six to eight weeks, somewhere in there, our entire three in an apartment building was just covered in mould. And inside all the units, I had to meet the tenants, it was snowing and really bad weather. And I had to call, you know, restoration companies and re-home all my tenants and get all of this stuff out of the property. Right after that, we had another property where a roof blew off in another big storm. And we're handling the kids and multiple other small things were going wrong, we had a couple of frozen pipes because it was a winter that the ground was just frozen for so many days. So we're dealing with frozen pipes, re-homing tenants, working full time, insurance, the tenants all wanted to sue me because there was mould and their kids were sick and going to the hospital. And my kids were just young and very needy. And it was like a two or three week period where I thought I'm done, I can't do this anymore. It's not worth it. It's too hard. And I kind of had a little pity party for a few weeks and said, okay, I need to take a break. I'm not buying anything else. And I took about a three-month break where I didn't buy anything else. And I just kind of took care of those issues. And then, you know, said I need some breather time, we went to the beach. And after I got back from the beach, I'm like, okay, I'm refreshed. It's behind us now that I've handled that period can do anything and just kept going. James: It's crazy the amount of pressure and tense moment that you have during that kind of things with family and issues with the deal. So I want to ask one last question before we go into the details of some of the deals that you have done here. So why do you do what you do? I mean, you don't have to do this right now. Right? Anna: So a couple of things, James, I'm really passionate about real estate, I'm really passionate about wealth building. And there is nothing like real estate to build wealth. You know, I started out teaching clients about mutual funds and stocks and bonds and how they can make you know, eight to 10% returns on their money if you time everything right. And realize that it takes money to be invested in the stock market. It's volatile and it's risky. And really, people can go from nothing to multi-millionaire in a couple of years of investing in real estate if they do it the right way. And so I've just seen the real power in that. You know we went from literally negative $750,000 net worth when we started my husband's business to a several million dollar net worth and just a few years of really aggressively buying rental real estate. And so it changes lives. And I want people to know, especially women, that that you can change your financial family trajectory, not just for today, but for future generations. And also we're providing really good housing to people. So you know, I grew up in government housing, my mom was a single mom, she was a property manager for a government housing apartment complex. And I know what it's like to grow up in an apartment and we didn't have the best amenities. You know, all my friends were wealthy, and I lived in a little apartment complex. And I've worked with inner-city kids who live literally in shacks with dirt floors in the middle of Houston, Texas. And to be able to empower people and say, your life can be different. And I can show you the financial tools to take better steps and to know better so that you can create generational wealth for yourself. And it just empowers me, it drives me to keep doing it, not just for my own wealth accumulation, but to help other people to learn that they can do the same. James: Yes, that's very interesting. I mean, what you say this, anybody can do this, right? And I know a lot of people are listening to you, there will be some people who think, yes, I can do it too. Then there's another group of people, they're going to give reasons, oh, Anna has this, Anna has that, that's why she's successful. So if you are the one who's giving reasons, I know you want to stop that, because indefinitely, you can make money in real estate, especially millions of dollars, if you really work hard. And if you really, really want it, a lot of them just do not want to do the work. They really don't want the success, they just want to continue with their life and just go ahead and do whatever they've been doing and let the life takes wherever it takes them. Anna: Yes and I think part of that James, for so many years, you see these teams, these shows reality TV, and people convince you that it's easy money that you can do it, that you can be successful. There's coaching programs and gurus that you know, charging five, ten, twenty thousand dollars to sign up and learn how to do real estate. And they promise you that if you follow these three steps, you're going to be independently wealthy in a year or two. And I think when reality hits people, and they start investing, and they start to see how hard it actually can be on a day to day basis until you build up that experience and that wealth, they just give up and they feel like failures because they've been sold an unrealistic expectation of getting rich quick in real estate, when it's really the long game. You know, you're playing a long game, it takes sometimes longer than it should you know, some people get lucky or find the right network and connections and very quickly can build wealth. But for most people, it's slow and methodical growth. And it's just people need to realize that it's not easy, but it's not that complicated if they just stick with it. James: Yes. And they are people who did one real estate and failed badly. And they gave up on real estate. So there other people that you know, yes, one time fail doesn't mean anything we could, we would have failed many times, I guess. Right, so. Anna: Sure. I lost money on my first flip. And I was convinced I'd never do another one. And yes, I changed my mind quickly. And I've done a few but rental real estate is really where the wealth build up comes. James: Yes, yes, in my single-family days, I do like 11 rentals, but I was also doing two flips. And I regret doing flips, because I made like, 40,000 on one flip and I buy a loss and $1,000 on another flip. And that thousand dollars feel very painful. Anna: Yes James: Because you shouldn't be losing money in real estate, but it really taught me a lot of things on how I didn't do it right in terms of the flip. But just because somebody did one and they fail, doesn't mean the whole real estate is a scam. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: Definitely make millions of dollars in real estate, especially if you're living in the US. Anna: Yes, yes. James: It's a country where it allows anybody to grow, there is no limit is just you. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: So no reasons, right? So if you give reasons, that's you so that's the only thing. So let's go to some of the deals that you have been done. And you so you are buying fourplex, fourplex, fourplex. And you started [inaudible30:21] on the 70 units and you self manage and you go into the syndication, why are you going into syndication now? Anna: So, I think some of it comes back to the time and the money, that spectrum of do I have more time or do I have more money? When I got started, I didn't have money and I could have said I didn't have time, but I made time. So it was a heavy, heavy time investment. As I built wealth and as I built more cash flow, it just made more sense for me to be able to scale larger with other partners and to be able to be an asset manager, operator, rather than the property manager or the maintenance person. So I've gotten to a point in my life where even though I've retired from my job, I really want my evenings to be free with my children and just to be wife and mom in the evenings and just spend a certain number of hours a day doing real estate. And so I got to a place where I had to say, you know, how can I really scale if I'm still self-managing many, many more units, it's going to take me a lot longer of full time effort, even though I don't have a job. And I wasn't really willing to sacrifice any more years with my children working more than 40 hours a week. And so I wanted to control my time and continue to scale. So I figured I needed to start working with other people, utilizing other people's time and other people's money. And the larger multifamily allows you to do that because you can afford full-time property management, full-time maintenance staff and really become more of an asset manager and business plan executer than you are an individual who self-managing your own properties. James: Yes, business plan executer, that's the operator definition, I would say. Anna: Yes. James: How do you define operator slash active asset manager in your mind? Anna: Sure. So an operator is basically the person responsible for operating that asset soup to nuts and executing your business plan. So it's generally, you're just general partners. And there will be either all the general partners will be involved in the asset management or overseeing the business plan and making sure that your plan for that particular property is being executed the right way. So for example, if we're buying a value add property, like the 73 unit that we did and the others that I go after, it's a property that is usually poorly managed, its expenses are not being managed well, the rents are below market, and perhaps the units need to be updated in order to maximize the rents so that you can then increase the value of that property. So as an asset manager and operator, I'm working with our property management company or a property manager and with our contractors to make sure that you know, when units come available, we turn those units quickly, we update them on time and on budget, we raise the rents, we get the new tenants in there. So that we can execute our plan to raise the values before we sell or refi. And we work with the property managers to make sure that they're cutting the expenses in the way that we planned, that they're monitoring the expenses, monitoring the rents, making sure rents are being collected, and you're just basically overseeing soup to nuts, all of the things that are supposed to happen to make your asset more valuable. James: Got it, do you think there's a certain advantage of being a local asset manager? Anna: I would say yes, in that really bad, unforeseen, unexpected things happen, like mould damage, or like when blowing roofs off or a hurricane, you can be at that asset very, very quickly. And you can also stop in and visit with your property manager, your property management company on a monthly basis, bimonthly basis and just say, hey, let's walk the ground, show me what you're doing. And there's just never anything as valuable as actually being on the ground and seeing it. However, in today's world, where we have the technology, we have zoom, we have our phones, where we can take pictures, and we can walk around, it's pretty easy to do things virtually as well. So while the operator in me that's always had, you know, my boots on the ground, and always been able to see kind of likes the control of being able to be at a property within an hour. It's not necessary, if you trust your team and have a good team that's boots on the ground, and can just go to your asset maybe once or twice a year. So I haven't really done it from afar. I'm asset managing my first property that we have under contract right now, two properties in Atlanta. And so I'll be sharing asset management responsibilities there. And that'll give me a little better feel for how much easier or harder it is to do from afar. James Got it. Got it. So let's come back to value add. So all the deals that you're buying a presume are value add, right? Anna: Yes. James: I mean, you're adding some things to the operation, either the income or the expense, right? So what do you think is the most valuable value add in your mind? Anna: So I really like Class A to B areas and an older building because your area you can't change, a lot of syndicators go after class C area, workforce housing and older buildings. And so you're struggling not only to bring the asset up to today's standards but also with a tenant pool who may suffer more heavily if we head into a recession or they may be more susceptible to losing jobs and not being able to pay rent. Where when you're in a nicer area where there's really good school districts and people want to live, there's a lot of good employers and a lot of good shopping and things around, you're always going to have people that want to move into that area because it offers the best lifestyle for those people. And so if you can find an older asset, you know, you're not struggling with the area to keep your units filled. It's just a matter of now offering an asset that people want to live in while they are in that area. So I'm really a value add investor, not doing like full major repositions, taking units in a C class area, that's 40% bacon and trying to fill them up. I like stable assets in a stable area that just needs some updating and operational efficiency in order to bring them up to today's standards. James: Good, that's very interesting. I never heard that from anyone else. Because the strategy is for you to look for the good area, but look for older buildings and try to improve from those older buildings, I guess. Anna: Yes. James: Okay. Interesting. But what about the like interior rehabs and do you do any like rehabs on the inside? And do you think is there any specific rehab that you think is more valuable than others? Anna: Sure, you know, it's really market-driven James's I know that you know, but for your listeners, every market demand something different. So where some parts of the country in order to get you to $1100 a month rent might demand granite countertops, and they might want really nice luxury vinyl plank flooring, other areas like tile, and they don't like granite, they like maybe stone countertops, and other areas to get that much, you might be competing with a $3,000 a month luxury apartment that would have granite and vinyl plank and maybe 1000 would get you carpet and a nice floor-laminate. So you've really got to look at what does your particular market demand and not just assume that every rehab has to be a cookie-cutter that looks the same. So what I do is I look at what is the competing market? What is the complex is offering to get that top rent that they're getting today? And I kind of secret shop those complexes or go on their website and see what those units look like. So for the 73 unit, for example, our property was a 1985 vintage when we bought it in 2018. So it was a little bit older, had a lot of original oak cabinets, plain commercial grade carpet, old looking vinyl. And basically we went in and we just changed up the flooring to vinyl plank flooring in the main living areas with carpet in the bedrooms. And the reason we did carpet in the bedrooms is because it's really cold in the northeast. And so a lot of people don't like solid flooring in their bedrooms. So we kind of save a little bit of money on doing carpet in the bedrooms and vinyl plank elsewhere. And we replace some countertops and updated old cream-coloured appliances to stainless steel, or very nice white depending on the unit. And then we painted the apartments, a soft, grayish color kind of more on the gray side. But the flooring has kind of had some greys and browns that go well with everything. And really for just a couple thousand dollars in new flooring and paint and some countertops and appliances, we were able to raise the rents $200 a unit. So it was a significant increase in rents because when we bought the property, not only were the units kind of dated, but the owners had not raised rents on several other tenants for several years. And so the property right next door to ours was asking 175 to 225 more a unit with the exact same floor plans as we had. So it was a great property because we didn't have to do a whole lot in order to bump those rents and achieve that big increase in value. James: Got it. So I want to go a bit more detail on how did you choose your rehab plan because you said you did countertops, you did stainless steel and a few other things there. But it's for example, how did you choose? Why did you want to install stainless steel appliances? Can you give some education on how did you go to that process, say I want to do stainless than black appliances? Anna: Well, and again, this is we've kind of left appliances, we've kind of played with it a little bit because we had so much room to bump the rents. And we looked at what is next door offering? They're the biggest competitor. So next door had certain units where they offered a premium package with stainless steel appliances. But the standard package didn't, it had white appliances. So we said for the first couple that comes available, let's do the vinyl plank, let's paint them. And if there's a cream color, for example, one unit had a cream color stove and a white refrigerator and cream color, you know stove and we said let's keep the brand new white refrigerator. And let's just put in a white dishwasher, a white stove and see if we can get the rent that we want without going stainless. So we did that on a few. And we had a huge waiting list of people that wanted those apartments, they couldn't care less about the stainless steel and so we didn't do it. So you know initially we thought we were going to go all stainless but people, we've been achieving the rent bumps we want without having to do stainless. And so we haven't done it at this point. James: Got it. Yeah, that's how you and I think that's a good strategy to look at the base on where you didn't want to overspend versus how much rent bump you need, right, because -- Anna: Yes. Sorry, go ahead. James: No, I mean, somebody can use that extra money for something else. Anna: Exactly. And the other thing, you know, because I focused primarily in my general area, I know the market like the back of my hand. So the buildings that we bought the 73 unit and the subsequent 31 unit that we just brought too, they're basically my direct competition. So I know what tenants are looking for, I'm already offering it in my town. And basically within a 30-mile radius, we know this is what the market demands, this is how much room we can get for it. And so while people think, oh, I need to do all these fancy bells and whistles, you really just need to look at what your competition is doing it over, improve it to the level that you're going to get the top rent, but don't over-improve it to the point here that you're spending needless cap backs, that aren't going to get you that much of an incremental rent bump. James: Got it, sounds really awesome man. Let's go back to the slightly more personal side. Is there a proud moment in your real estate career that you are really, really proud of, one moment? Anna: One moment, I think, on my 73 unit, sitting down with my JV partner and his partner that he had partnered with stuff, and really being able to convince him that this was an amazing asset to invest in. And he agreed to fund my first large syndication deal. So I was just really proud that I was able to build up the financial knowledge and build up the confidence and the track record from what I had done on a smaller scale that investors would trust me to take their investment and really manage an asset well for them. James: That's where you broke out from the four units to more than 70 units, which is a big achievement, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. And I think that and the day that I retired, when I was able to retire from a job where I worked with accredited investors to be able to say, you know what, I'm retiring, I've replaced my income, I've more than doubled it, I'm now an accredited investor. And I don't ever have to work for someone else, again, I think is probably one of the best moments of my life. James: Yes, that's really important. Can you name like three or five advice that you want to give for newbies who want to walk along your path? Anna: Sure, I'd say educate yourself as much as you can, you know, listen to these great podcasts and just learn from people that have already done it because you learn the things not to do and you learn that the good habits to do to kind of make yourself an excellent investor. So really commit to your education, podcast, read some books and attend some local investor meetup groups so that you can align yourself with other investors. So one is education. One is networking and alignment. And you'll get some continual growth and continue education just from learning from people that are in your network that are already doing what you want to do. I would say also start really looking at yourself and what your goals really are. So like you said early in the podcast, many people think they want to be a real estate investor. But when they discover how hard it is to do so, they kind of back off and maybe flounder for a while. And all of us can do that if we really don't know why we're doing something. So look at yourself, ask yourself what you really want in life. And why do you think real estate can get you there and then back into how much time and money am I willing to commit to my real estate investing venture. And if you don't have a lot of time, you've got to commit yourself to find money or finding other people's money or working with other people. And if you have a lot of time and not money or I think vice versa, then you need to really be willing to put in that time. And so look at your why; look at your time and your money and start figuring out how best to utilize every moment of time that you have, every moment of cash you have and other people's time and money so that you can start to scale as quickly as possible. James: Awesome, awesome. So Anna, why don't you tell our listeners how to get hold of you? Anna: Sure. So I'm on Facebook as Anna ReiMom Kelley. And I have a Facebook group called Creating Real Estate Wealth that lasts with Anna ReiMom, where we talk about real estate and really creating wealth and kind of the good, bad and the ugly of all the different asset classes. And you can email me at info@reimom.com. James: Well, Anna, thanks for coming into the show and providing tons of value. Anna, you gave a lot of very good perspective from how you juggle your role between being a mom and being a wife and trying to grow the business and I think our listeners would absolutely get tons of value out of this. And as I say there's no reason not to be successful in anything that you do and real estate is just a tool. You can be successful in anything but you can be successful if you really put your heart into it. If you really, really want it you will be successful. I mean, if you give reasons, there are tons of reasons you can give not to do something. Anna: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, James. It's been my pleasure. James: Thank you, Anna, bye. Anna: Bye.

In this episode I meet Timo Boldt, founder and CEO of recipe box service, Gousto. We discuss ethics, personal data and the importance of managing yourself before you manage others. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on artificial intelligence and improving sustainability.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Timo Boldt's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Timo Boldt, founder and CEO of recipe box service, Gousto. He launched the firm in 2012 and it has been growing exponentially year on year. Earlier this year they raised £18 million collectively from health influencer Joe Wicks, Unilever Ventures, Hargreave Hale, BGF Ventures, MMC Ventures and Angel CoFund. In July, they raised a further £30 million to develop their artificial intelligence technology, bringing total raised to £100 million.   Boldt is also on the digital advisory board for Unilever. Anna: Hello, Timo. Timo: Nice to meet you. Anna: Yeah, and you. How are you doing? Timo: Very good, excellent. Anna: Great. Timo: What would you like to talk about? First, I’d like to talk a little bit about the artificial intelligence side. I understand it is a substantial part of the business. There’s also a real emphasis on tech, so much so that you have a separate Twitter account for @GoustoTech. I was wondering – do you see yourself as a tech company as much as a recipe box service? Timo: We see ourselves as a data company that happens to trade in food. We have always been on this huge, huge mission to be the most loved way to eat dinner and we can only really do that by harnessing the power of technology, transforming the way that UK families eat, plan, shop. So, technology is kind of the enabler. AI for the past six, seven years has played a crucial role. And the idea is that when you open the app, you should see a completely personalised menu. I should see a different menu. We should only see what we really love to eat. I think that’s the power of AI integrated into the app and that’s providing real differentiation.      From a personal data perspective, how are the pages personalised? What data tends to be taken to personalise these pages? Timo: The section is literally called ‘Just for You’. You open the menu and it has a selection of recipes on it that only you should see, no one else should see. You can still browse the entire catalogue of the menu, but you don’t have to. What we do is pretty simple – we look through your history, we look at what you ordered before and we try to make a recommendation. We also try to look at similar customers, so pattern recognition and then trying to predict what else they might want and then offering that to you. And those algorithms are the exact two types of algorithm Netflix is using. How did you find the transition when GDPR came in? Timo: Look, I mean, I think GDPR has caused a lot of increase in process. Directionally, I think it’s quite good for the customer. We definitely had to up our game in terms of process and understanding the legislation. I don’t think that it’s has impacted, at all, our ability to surface better menus and better value for the customer. We welcome it, it’s fine. I’d like to move on to Dragon’s Den. You appeared on the programme in 2013, but unfortunately you were turned down by the Dragons. You were contacted by an investor shortly afterwards offering you a substantial sum. How did that fit into the expectations you had from the programme when you signed up to go on? Timo: Yeah – as a young entrepreneur, I think you have to try absolutely everything to get attention and raise money. I hand-delivered 100+ boxes to journalists. One of the opportunities that emerged was Dragon’s Den. I had an enormously fun time going onto the show. I actually got two offers on the show – one they didn’t show and the other one we rejected. Duncan Bannatyne became a customer after the show which is almost better than getting money. And as you said we had a great offer from a group of angel investors. They’re amazing people – they’ve all spent their lives in the food industry. They added not only capital but lots of knowledge, helping us in the early days to set up the supply chain. You know, talking to farmers, making sure we source the best quality food. I think it was a big catalyst for us. We didn’t take the Dragons’ money, but it was an amazing opportunity and we had lots of fun.    Ethics play a big part in the business. It’d be interesting to know how you maintain those ethics throughout the supply chain. Timo: We’ve always been on this mission to make the planet better off with every single meal we sell. In the early days, when I launched Gousto, I really wanted to find a way of taking the 40pc of food that’s wasted our system out of the equation, both in the supply chain and at customer level. By setting up Gousto we’ve really managed to take out food waste and that’s been a phenomenal part since day one. And it makes great business sense because you don’t waste food. We are also extremely focused on plastic, on packaging. This year alone, we’re pledging to reduce plastic by 50pc and the team is on track. We’ve always had this massive ethos, or sustainability focus. Now that we’re larger, we employ people who really go deep into the supply chain to understand farmers’ credentials, animal welfare and so on. It’s very close to my heart. I’m interested in finding out more about the food waste side. If you’ve got a certain demand for one of the meals on the menu. If you had leftovers – say you have potatoes, for example – you have a certain demand and have some left over, what happens to that? Timo: What the clever guys are doing is that they are literally helping to come up with menus that reduce food waste to zero. One, there’s a huge focus on food forecasting, making sure we only buy what we really need. But then secondly, we can really play with the menu, so that we can make sure that we only use the food all the time when it’s fresh and tasting the best. You talked a little bit about sustainability before – and it makes up a large part of the brand’s image. As we’ve mentioned before, you’ve got Unilever as an investor and you’re also a member of the digital advisory board. Unilever hasn’t always had the best reputation when it comes to sustainability. For example, it was named one of the most prominent plastic polluters in the Philippines [research from Global Alliance for Incinerator Alternatives] earlier this year. When you were presented with the opportunity to partner with them, both on an investment level and on their board, what was going through your mind? Did you worry that it might affect Gousto’s company image? Timo: Almost no FMCG (Fast-Moving Consumer Goods) company in the world has done as much as Unilever has done for sustainability. They are so driven by the topic of sustainability. Paul Polman, the former CEO, is leading the agenda and the charge globally. I really admire what they’ve done. Are they perfect? No. Do I work for them? No. Do they ask me what they should do about sustainability? No. I think they are a force for good. They’re not perfect. I think when I joined the Digital Advisory Board, I saw an opportunity to impact and influence and raise the agenda even further. But I’m not working for them in any way – I’m an advisor, I’m unpaid and I think we have to work with large business to really drive change. It’s amazing if Gousto can change the world. But ultimately, we need Tesco, Amazon, Sainsbury’s and Unilever to have impact at scale.   Tell me more about your role on the Digital Advisory Board. What kind of things do you do in that role? Timo: It’s an amazing board, they’ve got super-experienced CEOs from large companies. Unilever is spending £10bn on marketing per year and the big challenge is yesterday they got beaten up by Tesco, tomorrow they probably get beaten up by Amazon and Ali Baba. Everything is moving online. And it gets even harder for them – their brands are getting cannibalised, competition is on price all of a sudden, the Chinese market is growing rapidly. It’s all e-commerce, it’s no longer in the shop. I’m in a very humble capacity trying the educate the board around direct-to-consumer capabilities, our sustainability mission, that 100pc of Gousto’s revenues are online, how you build data science into your business model, how you hire tech people at scale. I’m playing the tech advisory role, wearing my start-up hat.    In the past you’ve talked about the importance of growing yourself as a CEO within your business. What do you mean by that? Timo: I’m a massive believer in the power of learning and being curious. I’ve done an Executive MBA, so at weekends I’d go to Cambridge to upskill myself. I’m becoming a certified coach right now, so I’m on a one-year coaching diploma course in the evenings and on the weekend. I also joined other scale-up wards, so I massively believe in this philosophy that everyone should aspire to be the best version of themselves. For me, the question is: how can I be the best CEO possible? Seven years ago, I didn’t manage anyone, today we manage 500 people. Tomorrow, we’ll manage 1,200 people. I need to constantly upskill myself, leading by example, then role-modelling to the organisation that you’ve got to invest in yourself and you’ve got to take time off to think about your own development. I think that’s super important as the work is changing so fast. Plus it’s a lot of fun.     I think it’s hard for business owners, particularly small business owners, to really take the time for themselves. How would you suggest alleviating the guilt that they feel a lot of the time and leaving some of the work to the people that they’ve employed? Timo:  Yeah, I totally think that’s true. Lots of people feel like they have no time. I mean ultimately, if you want to be brutal, busyness is some form of laziness. We’re all way too busy, but as a leader you have to get yourself out of the minutiae and the day-to-day. I think you’ve got an enormous responsibility to lead by example and help people understand how important self-development is – reflection, reflection practice – so I think it matters, but it is really hard. Once a quarter, I try going off-site to only focus on my own development. And I probably spend 50pc answering my phone and another 20pc responding to emails so I’m not perfect. I’m trying really hard, but it is challenging. If you have the right people in the business and you surround yourself with amazing people, people are the key to success. The more incredible talent you have, the more structure you have, the more you can afford to get out. If you feel guilty you might not have the right people. You can’t be controlling. In my head it’s not about accountability, it’s about ownership. It’s about giving people autonomy and then cheerleading them. Your job as leader is to set the North Star and then to galvanise people – buy them cake, celebrate, collab. Do whatever you can to make them feel good, celebrating every step towards success. If they fail, build them up again. Focus them on the richness of learning from failure. But it’s not about the day to day and controlling every step. The food industry as a whole is facing quite a few problems – not problems, more challenges – as we go into the future. Particularly with sourcing enough food, changing temperatures, all sorts of things. What kind of challenges do you see in the food industry and what advice do you have for an entrepreneur looking to start a business in the food industry? Timo: The bigger the problem, the bigger the opportunity for entrepreneurs. I think grocery is a wonderful market for entrepreneurs to enter and to do good. If you look at the grocery market, you’ve got huge supermarkets that for the last 50 years have built a supply chain of 10,000 stores which after 50 years is no longer fit for purpose. Everyone wants to order food online, people pay a premium for convenience, sustainability and health are so important. I think there’s a big opportunity around how we sell to customers, how we fit into their life. I also believe that there are lots of issues on the supplying side, for example urban farming. In perfect conditions, you can grow organic salads and organic tomatoes using a fraction of the water that traditional farming uses, with none of the nasty chemicals. None of this is mainstream today, but in the next ten, 20 years, it’ll become mainstream and all of us will eat through those new ways of growing food and to me that’s hugely exciting. Anna: The rise of hydroponics, growing food underground, things like that? Timo: Totally, yup. But it’s in an embryonic stage right now. Well, that’s it from me. Is there anything else you’d like to add? Timo: The one piece of advice I’d give to anyone starting a business is to really focus on managing yourself before you manage other people. I think that’s one of my biggest learnings in building Gousto. Having deep recognition of your own strengths and weaknesses, knowing how to handle your demons, solving your weaknesses, turning weaknesses into sources of energy and strength. You need to understand the ups and downs of the emotional rollercoaster of entrepreneurship. I think that learning this and building up the self-awareness and appreciation then allows you to have the energy to talk to other people and build them up when they’re down and to lead other people. But that to me is one of the biggest lessons I’ve learned.   To help our listeners, what would you say is your greatest strength and weakness? How did you go about realising that and managing it? Timo: My strengths are that I like people and I’m a people person. I’d say that I’m 99pc extroverted. I have huge levels of energy – I never run out of energy. From a weakness point, I’d say that I don’t pay much attention to process and how we get there. I’m more focused on the idea and empowering the right people and I think that can alienate certain people sometimes because they might be more interested than I am in the exact process of how we get there. Whereas I feel like if we’ve got the right people, I should cheerlead them and they figure it out. So over time, if you look at our team that’s surrounding me, they all pretty much play to my strengths, they offset some of my weaknesses, they are amazing at process and structure which I’m not the best at. I think that if you’ve built a system that plays to your strengths, you’re absolutely fine to apologise for your weaknesses every once in a while. Anna: That’s really good advice. Well, thank you for that Timo and thank you for coming on the podcast. Timo: Thanks so much and that was super fun. Thank you.      Anna: You can find out more about Gousto at gousto.co.uk. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on artificial intelligence and improving sustainability. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Anna Jordan talks to Jackie Fast, an entrepreneur, author, speaker and candidate on The Apprentice in 2018. We discuss how to build a business at home and how to get started with sponsorships.   Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on bootstrapping your business and managing your cash flow. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Read the transcript for the podcast interview Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. In this episode we have Jackie Fast, an entrepreneur, speaker, author and former candidate on The Apprentice. She came to the UK from Canada in 2007 as a first stop on her European backpacking tour but decided to stick around and work as a sponsorship director at the Data & Marketing Association instead. In 2010, Jackie began building her business, Slingshot Sponsorship. She sold the firm in 2016 and is now running REBEL Pi, a Canadian ice wine company.  We’ll be talking about building a business from home and how to make sponsorship work for you. Anna: Hello, Jackie. Jackie: Hello, Anna. Anna: How are you doing? Jackie: I’m very good, thanks. Great. Let’s start with your arrival in the UK. What made you decide to give up your backpacking adventure to work in London and build a business here instead? Jackie: Honestly when I arrived – I’m from a small town in Canada – my experience was minimal. I’ve always been very ambitious and very determined. A lot of the people around me were not so much. So when I came to London it really was to explore Europe because obviously people talk about it and I’d never been to Paris. When I landed in London I was just overwhelmed with the energy of the city – not necessarily the energy you’d get from a city like New York but the people and the views that the people had here and the types of work that they were doing. I met a lot of people in finance and I didn’t even know that was a job that you could have and I was just blown away. It wasn’t an immediate thing. I was supposed to be here for two weeks and then travel the rest of Europe and then I was like: ‘Oh, I love London, I’ll stay a couple more weeks, that went on to a couple more months and then I was like: ‘I don’t want to leave’ and then over time I thought: ‘I just really want to stay here.’    When you launched Slingshot Sponsorship you only had a laptop and £2,000. How did you support yourself financially in the early days of the business? I’m sure a lot of our listeners will want to know. Jackie: Not well! I’m pretty frugal, actually – generally. But basically, over those initial months I just cut back hardcore. I didn’t really leave the house for weeks on end. I wasn’t eating beans on toast, but I was certainly eating a lot of ready meals and stir fries and cereal. But for the first, I’d say, year and a half, I wouldn’t even go to Starbucks. I couldn’t even afford takeout coffee, quite frankly, because every single pound I saved was going towards hiring my first employee and it was really hard. Slingshot got successful early, but I didn’t really have personal money for at least two or three years, I’d say. And you know, I only literally just bought this house when I sold the business. Up until then, all my friends owned houses and I couldn’t afford to – I was renting. But I always had it in me that I’d make that sacrifice. We’re recording in Jackie’s house, by the way, just for a bit of context. What about income? Jackie: So, £2,000 could pay the rent for four months, basically, and I took a couple of commission-only things. I had a lot of small clients. It took me nine months to secure my first client. So, I’d take small jobs that’d pay £500, £600, £1,000 and I’d just live off those kinds of things and those kinds of projects. I worked hard to try to get people to give me money, like all small businesses do, but I was really conscious about how much money I spent. And our website is a great example. When we launched Slingshot I went out to loads of agencies, everybody was quoting something like £7,000, £6,000 and I didn’t even have the money. I ended up going to a digital agency who I knew through the Data Marketing Association and asked to swap, to be kind of like a case study for them. It was kind of like a guinea pig thing and I ended up paying, like, nothing for it. I just bartered for everything. Anna: It’s interesting because they say entrepreneurs, even when they start earning a lot more money, still have the frugal mindset all those years later. Jackie: Yeah, I’ve always been like that. My husband jokes a lot because before I sold Slingshot and after I sold Slingshot – there’s no difference. We have a nice house and we’ve had some great travelling experiences for sure. But I don’t spend a lot of money – we don’t spend a lot of money. Almost all of the money I made from Slingshot has been reinvested in other businesses. I bought our house which is a huge accomplishment for me, but everything else has gone into making more money.            Anna: Usually we ask about our guest’s specialisms, which in this case is sponsorships. Jackie: It’s everything, Anna. What do you mean, just sponsorship?! For a beginner, what is sponsorship and how can a small business owner make opportunities work for them? Jackie: In a nutshell, sponsorship is a collaboration between two businesses. Most people look at sponsorship as a transaction of giving somebody logos or branding or badging in return for money, but in a lot of cases the big sponsorships are done in contra. In a way, the website agency I was just talking about – I swapped to be a case study for them and they gave me a website. In a sense that was a sponsorship and I think the future of all business is sponsorship. Most people will be familiar with stuff like FireFest and Beats by Dre. All of that is sponsorship.     Any kind of collaboration between two organisations is effectively sponsorship. How do you handle that first approach, then? I imagine that those relationships and creating those first impressions are very important. Jackie: Actually, one of the things you said was the right and the other thing you didn’t. A lot of people think it’s who you know. Everybody thinks: ‘Well, I could sell sponsorship if I just knew the head of HSBC.’ I know the head of HSBC and I’ve never ever sold him anything because I everything I ever had wasn’t a good fit for what they did. Knowing people isn’t the point but what you also said is having a first impression. Where people fall flat is they don’t really understand what they’re selling, they don’t package it very well and they don’t value it. It’d be like going into a shop without a price tag, with rubbish stuff in the window, you wouldn’t go in. Same deal with sponsorship. And I think there needs to be an increase in professionalism for making those approaches and I think that Slingshot was testament to that because effectively, that’s all we did. I didn’t create events, I didn’t make something better – I took what I had and made it valuable to brands. When a small business is starting out, what kind of information and events can they seek out to help them? Jackie: I think there are two things. If you’re a rights holder, say you are an event or an online publication or a podcast or a travel blogger or whatever, it really is about how you package your assets and then understanding which brands to approach. I’ve written a book called Pinpoint which is the only book dedicated to sponsorship sales. If you are a brand looking for a sponsorship, that in a way is easier because everybody wants money but from a brand perspective, it really is Is the event you’re interested in going to speak to your target audience? Do you have a good reason for being there? Is it authentic? Are you going to approach it in an interesting way? How can you connect with people in a genuine and authentic way? And that’s best done by market research? Jackie: I think it’s dependent on the brand but yeah, market research, I think, understanding your audience. Let’s just say you’re after mums. Let’s say you’re a new gym for mums, or… I don’t know, I’m not a mother, this is the worst thing to go! You can actually look for a platform out there to reach mums. Race for Life is a huge one and it’s in local communities. But let’s say you want mums based in Leeds. You can find forums and groups within Leeds and the events they’re approaching or the physical venue space. There might be a digital community or a forum and then say: ‘This is my product and I’m interested in working with you as a sponsorship.’ Not advertising – I’d never recommend advertising. And most people will have a sponsorship package. What kind of things should you be looking for in that package, then? Jackie: I would always look for opportunities that go beyond a logo – I don’t think badging is valuable anymore. Brand recall used to be valuable in the 80s, but we’re hit with 60,000 messages a day now. Your brain just gets tuned off. So, I’d be looking for what kind of assets engage with your audience. Speaking opportunities would be something because they give you an opportunity to talk. Guest blog spots, posts, can we run a joint promotion, a campaign? Can we distribute free product? Those are the kinds of things I think really push the needle on sponsorship.     As mentioned in the intro, these days you’re running Rebel Pi, an ice wine company, which is quite a niche. It’s also quite a risky business – you were explaining that it’s very dependent on temperature, weather conditions and people being able to pick grapes quickly in the middle of the night at short notice. How do you manage this risk, particularly in terms of cash flow? Jackie: I’d probably say that I’m not managing it well. I went from selling ideas to selling a physical product which I wanted to do to test myself. It is very hard from a production standpoint because the only way to make ice wine is picking grapes at below -8C. If it doesn’t get below -8C, you don’t have a vintage, you don’t have a product. So, you have to be patient, you have to work with really smart people in the vineyard who know how to create ice wine each year and you have to be willing to ride it out. In our first year, we’ve done really well, we’ve sold about 60pc of our bottles. It’s now listed in places like City Social, 67 Pall Mall, Pied a Terre, Dinner by Heston – all those kinds of top places. Now for me it’s asking: ‘Do we have enough production for next year?’ We’re holding back stock, so that if we didn’t get a vintage next year, we could then still distribute. I wouldn’t want you to be able to go into a restaurant, be able to order it and then next month you can’t – for 12 months. I’m managing stock but from a financial perspective, I’m taking a hit, basically. I’m not talking about being profitable on this until year three, really. It will be – if all things go to plan – it’s not winter yet – if all things go to plan, it should be fine for next year. But in the event that we’re not, I’m looking long-term at this.   I created this product because I was on TV and I didn’t want to waste my 15 minutes of fame. I wanted to have something that people could buy. That was a stupid strategy because the majority of the people who watch The Apprentice are 14-year-old girls. They can’t even legally buy my wine! I launched the business with an expectation that was incorrect and I’ve had to fix it. I’ve changed the strategy and everything’s fine. It’s great – I’m super-excited to be working with a product that you can touch, you can taste – I’m excited about it.     It does seem like you have a very clear target market, especially the premium which I think people are moving away from more disposable, fast type things to buying less but better quality. It’s a better direction to go in. Jackie: For sure – people are drinking less, people are buying less, but when they do it, they want to enjoy it. That’s certainly what I’ve found personally, and amongst my group of friends. And the greatest thing about ice wine in the UK market is that almost nobody’s had it. When do you get to give somebody a first? It’s so unheard of. I’m so excited about that.          Yeah, for sure. You mentioned The Apprentice and it giving you a kind of platform. But you were already a seasoned and successful entrepreneur when you went on The Apprentice, having sold Slingshot. Alan Sugar even fired for you for being too experienced to be the business partner that he wanted. What did you get out of the programme in the end? Jackie: I’ll go back to the first part. The only reason I did The Apprentice was because I sold my business. I don’t know if I would’ve had the courage to do so before, but I’d built enough of a name for myself so if I came across looking awful, at least I had a fallback on my previous success. Well, I mean you don’t know. You have no idea what you’re going into, so I was lucky. Anna: So much of it is in the edit as well, isn’t it? You never know what’s going to happen! Jackie: It’s unrealistic to think that – first of all, it’s an entertainment programme and I am not stupid to not be aware of that. It would also be naïve to think that you are 100pc great 100pc of the time. There are very long days, you’re working with people you don’t know, you have no idea what to expect, you can’t prep at all. All of those mistakes that I made that were absolutely hilarious, I totally made. That’s not an edit, that’s 100pc what I did because that’s what happens – that’s what happens in life. You just don’t have a camera following you around 24/7 waiting for you to mess up. But in terms of what I took away from it, so when I got asked, I was like: ‘I don’t even know if I can do this’, but then I did. My husband was very kind and said if I was awful, we would fly to India and blow off steam for a year. Fortunately, we didn’t have to move. Now, in hindsight, if you asked if I would do it again I would do it in a heartbeat. It was so different than what I expected. What I got out of it was experience doing totally different things which I love. If I could spend a year doing that every single day, I would. Anna: Oh yeah, the variety’s so much fun. Jackie: I got to make doughnuts, I sold stuff at a bodybuilding thing, I created an art gallery. You couldn’t do those things in a lifetime. I was really fortunate to do that. I still talk to Claude Littner (one of Lord Sugar’s advisors) a lot and he’s been great and met some great people on it as well. What was your favourite part of the process? Jackie: I think my favourite part – at the time it was pretty stressful – I can say that I didn’t love being in the house. I loved doing the tasks. My favourite task was possibly the art task. Wait no, actually, that’s a lie – the shoe task! I lost, but my favourite task though. What made it your favourite? Jackie: I got to design a shoe! I love shoes and I got to be the boss, which I like to be because it’s easier. It was a lot of fun. It also played to my wheelhouse like selling stuff to businesses – and B2B sales is what I do. You said you got along well with Claude. There was one contestant you didn’t have a particularly good relationship with. What advice do you have for working with a personality that clashes with your own? Jackie: I think The Apprentice isn’t a real-life situation. My recommendation to myself was having more patience which I did not have. In a real-life situation, honestly, and this is not what people would say – avoid the person, quite honestly. You won’t always get on with everybody, and people won’t always get along with you. And that’s OK, there’s nothing wrong with that. Being able to work with somebody that you don’t like is an asset. I wouldn’t try to beat a dead horse. You shouldn’t really be there to make friends with people, you’re there to do your job. You should also try not to make their job harder. My honest advice would be to have minimal interaction with the person you don’t like. Anna: Just trying to stay out of each other’s space, I guess. Jackie: Which in The Apprentice was impossible because we were living together!   Anna: Smashing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jackie. Jackie: Thanks for having me, Anna. Anna: You can find out more about Jackie at jackiefast.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on bootstrapping your business and managing your cash flow. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.    

Anna Jordan meets Piers Linney, an entrepreneur, investor and former Dragon on Dragon's Den. We discuss the most memorable pitches from the show as well as Piers' first foray into entrepreneurship.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on starting a business and raising external finance. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Piers Linney, an entrepreneur and investor who is best known for his time as a Dragon on Dragon’s Den. We’ll be talking about Piers’ enterprising beginnings and how you can drive your small business forward, even during difficult spells.  Anna: Hello Piers. Piers: Hi Anna. Anna: How are you? Piers: Very good. Anna: Great. OK, as the intro suggests, I’d like to go back a bit. As we know, it’s easier for entrepreneurs to get started earlier and reach a larger audience, helped by the likes of selling platforms like eBay and Depop. But you were just as entrepreneurial, even when you were a teenager – that was before the introduction of social media, apps. I understand that you used to sell the Sunday papers, but you bypassed the… Piers: Ah, you’re going way back now! [laughs] Yup, yup, I did. So, you bypassed the newsagent because you saw a gap in the market there and you want to the wholesaler and distributed the Sunday paper around your neighbourhood. Piers: Yes, so, just going back to your earlier point. The fact that you can start a business more easily these days – there are platforms that help you in terms of distribution – it doesn’t mean you should. It’s still about the idea. What I learned early on – I’ve always been fascinated about business, really – I grew up in a village in Milltown, so a lot of the neighbours had their own businesses. I didn’t really know anybody who had a job in terms of getting up in the morning and going off to work. They were builders, joiners, jobs that you work with your hands. Maybe owned a quarry. I sort of thought: ‘Right, I had a job’ which was my paper round, which paid £5 a week. If I was late it was £4.50, which shows you how long ago this was. And I thought: ‘This is just a mug’s game’. It was very cold up in the north in those days. Global warming’s made it easier. And I thought: ‘What can I do?’ So, one morning on a Sunday when they [the newsagent] didn’t deliver, my dad said to me: ‘Could you get me my paper? I don’t want to get out of bed.’ And I said: ‘OK, I’ll go and get it for you.’ And he gave me 50p. I said: ‘Hang on a minute, that’s pretty good money compared to what I’m earning on my paper round.’ The next-door neighbour said to me: ‘Oh, can you do the same?’ My dad was telling him about the new service. And I thought: ‘Hang on, there’s something in this.’ I flyered my whole neighbourhood and built a paper round. I was earning £15-£20 on a Sunday morning for doing a bit of a longer paper round, but it was first entrée and my first understanding that if you find a niche and you find a product or a service that somebody wants and it adds value to their lives, and they’re willing to pay you more than it costs to deliver that service, i.e. it’s profitable, then you can create value and – in this case, it was a small example – some wealth. I used that money to buy my first and very expensive BMX. And through that I understand that the idea’s great and the execution clearly, but what it also came down to is a lot of hard work and graft. I Imagine it must’ve taken quite a bit of confidence as well at that age. How did you approach the wholesaler and how did they respond to you? Piers: I’ve never lacked self-confidence and it’s probably something that’s helpful in being an entrepreneur. Becoming confident or becoming a leader in many ways is something that can be instilled in you or you can be born with it, or it’s something you can learn. In the military, they can train leaders. I was always confident, and I could see the opportunity to make money. And again, the wholesaler, all he got was another customer, it just wasn’t a newsagent. His bundle of papers, rather than drop it outside a newsagent, was dropped off at someone’s house, at a residential address. He didn’t really care – he was just making a bit more money.                 I understand that your mother set up her own business after retiring from nursing in the NHS, I’m sure that was some kind of inspiration to you.   Piers: People say to me: ‘Who are your role models in life?’ I’ve never had formal mentors. My initial role models were my parents. My dad was a Mancunian working-class lad who got into Cambridge on a scholarship, so he was bright. Then after that, it was people that I worked with. I’ve always worked with people who are more senior that are better than me. Then after that, I’ve always tried to hire people that are better than me. I’ve had three meetings today and they’ve all been with people that know more about something that I’m looking to get into. And that’s really important because you never have all the answers. The world’s moving so quickly now and the market is so dynamic that you can’t be expected to have the answers. And if you think you have, you’re probably wrong. What would you say in terms of small businesses being able to hire better talent? Perhaps because they’re nimbler, they can innovate at a faster rate. Would you agree with that? Piers: I’ve been through this quite a few times where you’ve got a small business and you want to attract talent. Now, a couple of things: the first one is that, really, you shouldn’t be concerned about where talent resides. If you want to have a talented forklift truck driver, they probably need to live reasonably close to your warehouse. But if you’re looking at the creative economy and tech-based businesses, talent can live anywhere now. It doesn’t matter. The idea of a city even is arguably unnecessary going forward into the future. Don’t worry about where talent is, just go for the best talent. You’ve then got to be more creative to access more talent because they’re going to have more people talking to them, they might have a nice cushy job in a big company. You’ve got to be more creative about how you bring them onboard, about renumeration. If you’ve got a company you intend to sell or float one day, you can offer people shares. You shouldn’t give shares in a company that’s intending to be a lifestyle business forever – unless you’re going to make money in dividends. Think about how you’re going to add value to their lives. A lot of the entrepreneurs I come across think that these senior people who are joining them are doing them a favour. But you’ve got to remember that you’re doing them a favour actually because if they didn’t want to leave corporate life and do something more interesting and entrepreneurial where they have a better work-life balance, they wouldn’t be talking to you. And when you bring people onboard – no matter who they are, how talented they are – think very carefully about handing out shares. Make sure that when they leave, for whatever reason, you can get them back. But the talent is out there. And the other thing about talent that I’m very passionate about is diversity. There’s a pool of talent. If you’re looking for people who look like you, have the same religious beliefs as you, same sexuality as you, they live in the same area and went to the same school as you, you’re limiting your talent pool. Don’t do that. You need to think about diversity in all of its forms, especially in terms of thought as well, to access a broader and deeper talent pool. That’s the competitive advantage. There’s a huge amount of talent out there. I’m a trustee of Nesta as well, the innovation charity, and if you look forwards, the research about robotics and AI, menial jobs and even jobs such as accountants and lawyers [are at risk]. Software’s pretty good at adding up numbers, it’s pretty good at looking at datasets and applying logic to it. It’s not just Uber drivers and forklift truck drivers that have got a problem; it’s the professions. So, creativity is what differentiates us from the machines. And the talent you access in the future is going to have that creative edge. My mantra is that you’ve got to have a plan, but your plan has to have some growth in it. Add some creativity, some innovation, some differentiation to your product or service to attract different customers. Having no plan for growth, in a world that is changing very quickly, is a very bad plan. You wake up one morning, and you find your market, your customers, your product, your supply chain – something’s changed which means that you’re no longer relevant or you no longer have a profit margin. Anna: I was actually reading an article about ice cream vans the other day and they seem to be a type of business that – there are some that have moved forward but a lot of them are in the same types of vans, still doing your normal vanilla with a Flake and they haven’t moved on and they’re wondering [why they’re falling behind]. Piers: They should be doing smoothie vans! Anna: Yeah! Piers: It doesn’t matter what you do, 20-30 years ago – I’m generalising now – you could do that. I don’t think it’s a wise plan these days – ice cream van, corner shop, tech company, it doesn’t matter – to rest on your laurels. You’ve got to keep talking to your customers about what it is they want so you understand change, ideally before it happens.                        You’ve spoken a bit about instilling the values of entrepreneurialism. How are you doing that with your two daughters? Piers: Another interesting thing I’m quite interested in is the future of work, the future of employment. Dell has some research that says in 30 years, 85pc of the jobs that exist don’t exist today. There’s other research that says ten years out, half of them don’t exist today. You’ve got an education system that’s training your children to enter a world that the teachers don’t understand, that I don’t understand. It’s very difficult. They’ve got to equip kids with these sorts of skills and keep them as a rally car, as I call it, to the unweighted so you could go left or right as you go over the brow of the hill – and that’s hard to do. My daughter – I’ve got a daughter called Tiger. I got called into school, actually, by the head teacher. She said she’s been selling things at school and they need to talk to her. I thought she’d made a couple of quid. I asked what happened and the teacher said: ‘She got some erasers and she was making them funky and selling them on at a margin.’ I asked how much money she made and she said £60. They said that I need to tell her off and I refused. I take the point about taking money off the other kids, maybe there should be some kind of bartering, but I’m not going to punish my daughter for being entrepreneurial and making some money – that’s all she’s ever seen me do! Anna: Exactly. Do you know who her dad is?! Piers: It was quite interesting to see that. I bring them up to – they’re young, so I don’t really sit them down and go over how to start a business with them. But I think they get it, that my view is that – especially when they enter the labour market – is if you can, work for yourself. It’s got its problems, you sacrifice, it’s got its risks, but at the end of the day you’re masters of your own destiny. You seem to have a knack for identifying emerging markets as well [Piers launched cloud tech firm Outsourcery before the cloud was popular]. What kind of emerging markets do you see coming up?  Piers: I was into the telecoms which was the tail-end of that, really, the particular way it was done. I was into cloud and cloud is the way things are now. Since then I’ve been looking at what I do next. I made some investments, some work and some don’t, and I’ve been looking at doing something big, something disruptive. I’ve been looking at wellness, so health, fitness and now I’m looking now more at going back almost into what I know, which is markets, SME services. I’m trying to disrupt those because a lot of them just have not changed, even since I was in them ten years ago. And even ten years before that, they haven’t changed. I think there’s an opportunity in there in services for small to medium-sized businesses to disrupt markets.      Coming on to everybody’s favourite, Dragon’s Den. I’m sure you would’ve had a lot of pitches in your time on the show, but which was the most memorable one for you and why? Piers: There’s two, I suppose. I’ll give you the negative, funny one first. That was Bathomatic, which was a chap that turned up wanting £1m or £2m for 20pc and he had a product which pretty much filled a bath and dropped some rose oil in it. I said I’ll do that myself actually. I don’t need to spend £15,000 on something that turns a tap on and off. We asked what the money was really for. He had this pretend plaque/device that didn’t really work, it was a mock-up, and he said he needed a floor in the Shard for the marketing suite. You laugh at that, but I’ve heard about entrepreneurs who have got equally bonkers ideas and raised money from people. That was one of the comedy moments. The most interesting one for me was a company that at the time was called Lost My Name and now it’s called Wonderbly. That was the leading producer of personalised children’s, it was books, now it’s increasingly content. They raised investment from the likes of Google and other venture firms, and they’ve been growing. I was one of the first to do real tech on Dragon’s Den. There were four or five Israeli entrepreneurs walked in the Den and they all had their venture capital term sheet and I thought: ‘What’s there not to like?’ They knew what they were talking about and that’s been very successful. So hopefully out of Dragon’s Den I’ll make some money because it’s like a portfolio – some work, some don’t, some you lose money, some make money. Anna: Yeah, it was as you were saying as well, personalisation is a huge market and growing, as is tech, so combine that – Piers: Personalisation is everywhere now. I’ve met lots of founders recently and whether it’s books or baby’s clothes, technology allows you to do that now. It was very hard, very expensive to do this. Companies like the Moonpigs and all those kind of people in the world and the moo.coms, personalised greetings cards and business cards, is normal now. It was very hard to do a decade ago, so personalisation is somewhere where you can really add value. People want to see personalisation, they want to see provenance, they want to know the founder’s story. The new consumer that’s beginning to amass disposable income, they want to see more, they don’t want to have some clever advert that’s sold on something they don’t really want. But increasingly, people are interested in – not all sectors – but they’re interested in where did this product come from, who’s put it together, what’s the ethos of that business – how do they treat their customers, their employees, the environment – locally, globally. That’s what you need to think about because especially on the eco side of things you’re seeing now that the Millennials, whatever you want to call them – Gen Z – Millennials now have the… Anna: Hiya! Piers: Like yourself. Millennials are mid-level managers in most companies now, they’re moving up, because they’re getting older. And they are changing the way in which products and services are consumed – because these were little things that didn’t matter too much, they were seen as ‘got to have it for the marketing’. Now you’ve got to have it because if you don’t have it, they’re not going to buy your product or service. Anna: And it’s so easy to research as well. So, if there’s something you fall down on, people can research it. Boom – there you go. Piers: That means you have to be transparent about it as well.  Because if you’re not, people are going to start asking questions. You don’t have to be, always. There are lots of people that make good money out of businesses that don’t do any of this. They just found a product. I mean, mobile phones. I used to be in mobile, and people made a lot of money out of it and the service was pretty awful. But at the end of the day, they had a product that selling it was like shooting fish in a barrel. Because it was an amazing new product that everyone wanted, nobody had one, so you couldn’t really go wrong – and those markets haven’t really changed much since. At the time of recording, it is Small Business Advice Week. This year it’s running from 2nd-8th September. First off, it’s a little bit difficult to get around this topic and it may very well change by the time the podcast goes live. What advice do you have for small businesses to prepare and operate in the event of a no-deal Brexit? Piers: Well, the problem with that is that we don’t know what a no-deal Brexit means. That’s the bad thing about it: we should not be in this position. The economy depends upon entrepreneurs and entrepreneurship and innovation. And having a period of time where – and I’ve seen this – on a large scale and also on a small scale, where investment, decisions, sales cycles, things have been delayed. That slows the economy down and it has slowed the economy down and that’s going to continue. And even if we end up with a no-deal, and it’s been said that over time, we’re all dead. So, if you’re looking at it in one year it’s probably bad but in five years, ten years, things change and water will find its level again. But there’s going to be a period of time where the innovation in the UK, the economy and entrepreneurs are being stifled. And I don’t care what the outcome is, we should never have been put in this position. So, in terms of answering your question, it’s very hard. It actually makes sense, and I hate saying this, it does make sense in many ways to delay investments. Maybe in terms of marketing or looking overseas or EU relationships or your supply chain. Just give it a week. It was worse six months ago, at least now you’re looking at maybe days and weeks. It’s a very hard question to answer. Anna: It is, isn’t it? Piers: It’s incredibly frustrating. Anna: Yeah, we’ve had so many people ask. Piers: There’s no easy answer to that, sadly. Possibly something a little more positive. What is the most common question you get and what advice do you give small business owners in return?    Piers: One thing I’m talking about this week a lot is financing. I’ve worked in the US quite a lot and you look at entrepreneurs there and even small business owners, the ones who aren’t looking to grow exponentially, it’s about if you need to grow a business sometimes, your net income, your profits, don’t provide sufficient capital to fund your growth aspirations. You need to raise money. That could be debt, it might be equity. It depends where your business is in its life cycle and its profitability, and your balance sheet. And a lot of UK entrepreneurs, it seems, are afraid of raising external finance. So, raising external finance isn’t for everybody, but given the numbers are 70pc-80pc of UK businesses would rather forego growth than raise external finance, that needs to change. I don’t know exactly how much, but by changing it you can put more into the engine of the UK economy, and how these businesses grow. And that’s really simplistically about understanding your options. There are lots more options now: peer to peer lending or challenger banks or angels or angel funds, crowdfunding. There’s lots more ways you can raise capital which you couldn’t do five, even three years ago in some cases. Go and look at the options if you need to grow, understand them and then it comes down to a contract. Be happy with the terms of that contract and the small print. Can you lose your business, can you lose your shirt? Are they draconian terms? This is where you need a good lawyer, I’m not joking about that either. When someone hands over a term sheet or a document for debt (or a shareholder agreement if you’re looking at equity), you need to understand exactly what that means for you and not just if things go well. You need to understand what happens if things don’t go well. Extreme examples – there’s no point having an investment agreement where you are restricted, you have a veto of you raising debt and equity if you need to raise more because they can hold a gun to your head, essentially. There’s no point having documentation for your start-up which says that in year four, you will hit this EBITDAR number (Earnings Before Interest, Depreciation, Amoritisation and Restructuring or Rent costs) or they have swamp rights. They can take over the board and fire you. They’re extreme examples, but I’ve seen them. Both professionally and I’ve seen them in things put before me as well. So, understand the detail and the small print and make sure that if things don’t go to plan, you know where you stand. And I’ve known one example recently where someone built a business, they had a 12 million evaluation, they raised £2-£3million and within a month, they were out. They missed some sales target. But don’t be afraid of raising finance if you want to grow because otherwise in many, many cases, you can’t really grow. Anna: Well, that’s it from me unless there’s anything else that you’d like to add. Piers: No - we’ve covered some ground there. Anna: Thanks for coming on the show, Piers. Piers: It’s a pleasure. Anna: You can find out more about Piers at pierslinney.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more information on starting and growing your own business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Anna Jordan meets Nicola Horlick, an investment fund manager and founder of business P2P lending firm, Money&Co. She talks about the slowing economy and why you should never go into the restaurant business.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles about peer to peer lending.   Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Nicola Horlick, an entrepreneur and investment manager with other thirty years of experience. She’s the CEO of P2P investment firm, Money&Co, and as such, we’ll be talking about business finance. Anna: Hello, Nicola. Nicola: Hi. Anna: How are you doing? Nicola: Very well, thanks. First, I’d like to ask you about moving from finance. How is it becoming an entrepreneur for the first time having worked in that industry for quite a while? Nicola: Yeah, well originally, I worked for big banks and I was very lucky. I started at a big bank that was going very strongly and after that I was sent to another bank which had a very major problem with one of its businesses and I had to turn it around. And then I went to the French bank, SocGen (Société Générale) and they asked me to set up a fund management business for them literally from scratch, so it was just me, a Frenchman and a secretary on day one. That naturally took me to the point of saying “I really need to do something on my own now.” I’d sort of done everything within the banking environment and having literally set up a business from scratch it then gave me the bug, so to speak. The next step after that was to set up a fund management business with no big bank – just me – and getting some backers. I set it up in 2004 and it was approved in 2005 by the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) that was Bramdean Asset Management. I’ve set up numerous different businesses since then, mostly around finance. In 2011, I set up a private equity business called Rockpool with two guys who are both ex-3i (an international investor group). I then also set up some film finance businesses and I got involved in the music industry and I listed a vehicle on the London Stock Exchange to invest in alternative investments. And then I’ve done less successful things like setting up a restaurant which was a very, very bad idea. I’m still trying to extricate myself from that now. But you know, it’s led me to a different world, really. And then ultimately I set up Money&Co in 2013 and Money&Co is a peer to peer lending platform. So, it’s individuals who want a better rate on their cash lending to businesses to help them grow. Our bad debt experience to date has only been 0.04pc per annum. We’ve actually only had one bad debt in five years. And so with this, it’s not that we’re unique – there are others, Funding Circle is massive – that lend to small businesses. We take a more considered approach. It’s mainly because I’m a fund manager and I’ve been an investor for so long. Whereas a lot of the people running these businesses might come from different backgrounds – they might come from tech or marketing backgrounds rather than money management backgrounds. What criteria do you look for in the businesses you want to invest in? Nicola: So, we have some very basic requirements, like you must have three years of filed accounts; the company must have been profitable in the last year of operation; and it needs to demonstrate to us that it’s affordable for them to borrow so we’ll never ever lend to a start-up, for example. I’d like to talk a bit about the peer to peer lending market. On the retail side, the FCA are introducing tighter rules for retail investors after the collapse of Lendy. How is that going to affect the business investment side and the industry as a whole? Nicola: Well as far as I’m concerned, it’s a very good thing. Because when it started it was what was known as ‘light touch regulation’. So there weren’t many rules and it did concern me that there were people running these services who often didn’t have a financial services background and I’m not sure that’s the right thing for the lenders. A lot of them are older as well and are looking for income and it’s important to protect them as much as you can. So I actually welcome the new regime which is going to come on 9th December by the FCA which is going to tighten up on all of this stuff because it’s hopefully going to mean that the right people are lending and that the people doing the lending on their behalf are better qualified to do that and that their money is better protected. So, Money&Co, as far as you can see, will always exist as a P2P lender? Will you ever introduce other products? Nicola: I mean we could, but that might confuse people. I think we should focus on that because there are huge opportunities in lending. My own background is very much an equity background, so I’m relatively new. I’ve only being doing lending for five years out of 36 years of being in financial services., so I’m a relative novice. There are huge areas of lending that you can bring into the P2P arena. So for example, leasing is an absolutely vast industry. There’s £100bn a year of leasing contracts in this country, 25 of which is business critical leasing. So that’s the printing press for the printing company or the trucks for the trucking company or the dental suite for the dentist: things that those businesses can absolutely not do without. There is absolutely no reason you can’t put those in a P2P environment, those types of loans. And housebuilding is a very good example of where banks are reluctant to lend – there’s a shortage of housing in this country. There’s no reason why we can’t devise a product and in fact we are in the middle of doing just that, for that industry to build more houses. And that’s taken us to the point of thinking that prefab has never properly taken off in this country. It’s much more of a thing in countries like Germany and Austria, but that’s a way of building them much faster and in a much more eco-friendly way, because you can insulate them in the factory and you can put the houses up in a couple of weeks. You can fast-track the build so that instead of having men standing out in the rain putting one brick on top of another, which is crazy in this day and age, you can assemble them really fast and you can make much more interesting developments architecturally. It’s a bit like LEGO; you can have all different shapes and you can make it more interesting. So, we’re looking at ways of raising money from institutions to actually fund housebuilders. Now these would still in effect be P2P loans but from an institution lending to a housebuilder rather than an individual lending to a housebuilder. Coming back to you as an entrepreneur, I understand that Money&Co has suffered a significant financial loss [£1.4m going into March 2018]. You have said there’ll be a substantial profit going into March 2020. What are your recovery plans and how will you go about setting them? Nicola: Ugh, this is such a typical Daily Mail story. If you actually look at how much money we’ve lost in the last five years and compare that to Funding Circle, it’s a fraction of the amount. Funding Circle in 2018 lost £50m in one year. Money&Co has made very small losses relative to Funding Circle. My aim is to make the business profitable as soon as possible because I don’t really believe in building businesses that make losses and losses and losses. And we could’ve lent an awful lot more money if we’d burned more money, but that’s not our approach. Our approach is to build it in a very steady way and I do expect to make a profit… well, certainly break even in the year to 2020. In fact, we may not because it depends how much we spend on marketing. And you know, if we really want to accelerate the growth of the business, we may decide we want to spend more on marketing. If we spent less, we could make a profit; if we spent more, we’re going to end up with a bigger business the year after. It’s a fine line. How do you make that decision of whether the marketing is worth it? Nicola: Well, just before I spoke to you, we were having a meeting about that and just going through our marketing strategy and trying to decide how much we should spend. It’s quite formulaic, really. We sort of know. Of course, we’ve got this problem – not really a problem – but the fact we’ve got the FCA which is tightening up all the rules which makes direct consumer marketing a little bit more complex than it was previously. But it’s a bit binary, you know – if you spend this amount of money on Google in its various forms, you’re likely to get a certain number of clients. So it’s really a matter of how much we want to put into the hopper and how much we’re going to get out at the other end. And also, how many loans we’ve got that we think need to be funded? But assuming we are able to get the institutional money that we need to get to help us fund housebuilders, we’ll certainly be at break-even and probably make profit by the year to March 2020. But I don’t make any apology – it’s a start-up fintech business. That’s what fintech businesses do, make losses. You started up in 2013, correct? Nicola: So the company was formed in 2013 and then we launched the business in 2014, April, the site went live. And we completed the first loan in July 2014.  Right, OK. Normally with a start-up company, it’s usually the first year or so that’s a bit crackly but then it starts to even out after that. Nicola: What, in terms of profitability? Anna: Yeah. Nicola: Yeah, well not in fintech. If you look at all the people with fintech businesses who have been running them over the last few years, you’ll see that they’ve all made big losses. It’s sort of accepted that when it’s a new industry, you’ve got to establish the industry and you’ve got to throw money at it in order to create it. It’s not like setting up shops – well actually, shops are a pretty bad example because they’re not very easy to do these days – but there are more traditional businesses where somebody might have been working for an engineering company and then sets up on their own. Usually the rule is that companies move into profit in year three, in its third full year of operation, that’s what I’d normally expect. But you know, with this, there’s a discretionary element to it which is the marketing spend. We could just run a business that is profitable and keep it small, or we could decide to make it to make it a lot bigger and in order to do that we need to spend a lot of money on marketing. What do you think about the state of business in the UK, especially in the light of Brexit? Nicola: Nobody seems to have noticed that the economy has slowed down very significantly. And we do see it – though a lot of our loans are property-backed loans, we do have some engineering businesses, for example, that we’ve lent to, that are beginning to see a slowdown. And that is Brexit-related in that uncertainty means that people don’t make decisions. So, businesses have not been investing because they don’t know what’s going to happen and there is evidence that car manufacturing companies, for example, are beginning to move things out of the UK. And the number of cars being manufactured in the UK is down 20pc so far this year on the same time last year. These things are beginning to impact on the economy, and they’ll have knock-on effects on all of the businesses we lend to, which is one of the reasons for being very cautious and one of the reasons why I have been so cautious about growing our book. But yeah, I have found generally, during my investing life, that I make a lot more money in bad times than in good. Because in good times any fool can make money, because everything is going up. In bad times, your skill comes into play. It sounds counter-intuitive, but I’m likely to be lending a lot more money in a recession than when things are booming because I will be taking on less risky loans. It’s just that lenders tend to withdraw; they react to recessionary conditions. The banks react during recessions. So, during a recession, there are more opportunities for people who have money to lend. I expect there to be a recession and I expect to build the loan book faster, rather strangely, than I was when things were going really well. When things were going really well, you had Funding Circle throwing money at these borrowers, you had banks, you had international banks, you had vast amounts of money sloshing around. We had quantitative easing – a lot of money being printed. If it’s being printed you’ve got to do something with it. All of that will come to an end and it’ll be much harder for borrowers to find lenders and that provides us with the opportunity and means we’re more likely to find better-quality borrowers during that period of time. And one last thing I’d like to talk about. So the restaurant, Georgina’s, that you used to run, went bust. What are the toughest lessons you learned as an entrepreneur? Nicola: Well, it’s not quite true to say that it went bust. What we did was we closed it down and we moved to a different location. Although it wasn’t called Georgina’s – we called it The Walrus Room – and it was in Battersea Rise. It’s more a bar with food rather than a restaurant. And we’ve just got a new manager to come and manage it. I’m still involved in it, but it’s a nightmare industry and I absolutely recommend that nobody should go into restaurants. I think it only works if you’re a really talented chef and it’s your restaurant. Or if you’re Pizza Express. Anything in-between doesn’t work, so just a vanity thing where you open a restaurant because you like the idea of owning a restaurant, that’s a very, very bad idea. What are the toughest parts of running [a restaurant]? Nicola: Well, the costs are just ridiculous. The rents on the high street are still ridiculously high. A unit on Georgina’s – the original unit – the annual rent was £65,000 a year. The Council Tax was £28,000 a year, I mean it’s outrageous: £28,000 a year?! Then one-sixth of your turnover goes to the VAT man, plus we had 14 employees because it was a full-service restaurant. So, we had to pay 13.8pc of the wage bill in national insurance. You’re basically in business to pay tax and rent – that’s it. And the idea that you’re going to make a profit, unless you’ve got some really big-name chef behind it, is pretty much impossible, in my view. And finally, coming slightly back to my first question, what tips do you have for entrepreneurs – or want to be entrepreneurs – starting their own business for the first time? Nicola: You need to make sure you’ve got some proper funding. A lot of people end up funding their business through credit card debt or getting loans from loan sharks, I mean that’s just absolutely not the way to do it. The Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme (SEIS) is a very, very good thing because it allows you to raise £150,000 and the people who invest can get 50pc back as long as they’re UK taxpayers. And so I think people need to put in the work at the beginning to make sure they’re raising the money before they’ve actually started the business and they shouldn’t be putting their life savings at risk and they shouldn’t be putting their money on credit cards or going to loan sharks. It’s really important to make sure that the business is financed properly from day one.  Anna: Great. Thanks ever so much for coming on the show, Nicola. Nicola: Not at all. Anna: You can find out more about Money&Co at moneyandco.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on alternative investments. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.      

Anna Jordan chats to Caprice, a supermodel turned entrepreneur. She tells us more about the struggles of the model stereotype in starting her first business and protecting your brand when you enter a licence deal.    Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles about starting a company and Government funding for small businesses.   Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Prefer to read it instead? Here's the transcript. Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Caprice Bourret, a former model turned businesswoman. You might recognise her from the front covers of Vogue and Esquire or from her appearance on Channel 4’s The Jump in 2017. She’s here to talk about moving into the business world and the experiences that came with launching her lingerie brand, By Caprice and her homeware range, By Caprice Home. Anna: Hi, Caprice. Caprice: Good morning! Anna: How are you? Caprice: I’m…OK. Anna: Nice. Right, let’s crack on. When you retired from modelling you were well-known and then you moved into the business world where you were relatively less well-known. How did you rebuild your reputation in another field? Caprice: That took quite a few years. I’m not going to paint a beautiful picture because it wasn’t. The stereotype was quite severe. I didn’t think it would be that difficult coming from being a well-known model to having credibility in the business world was difficult. But it took a lot of tenacity and I had to ascertain stockists. So, I would call up and go directly to the CEO and try it that way because with buyers I was a bit chopped liver, regardless of who I was, so I went to the CEOs. I said, “Listen, I’ve got this great idea and this great brand”, ba ba ba. And most of them – you know, when you invest in a new brand, you’re talking about a massive investment in some regards. When I started, it was a licence deal so they would invest. I know because I invested at least a half a million into a new brand, so I know it was a hard sale. And then when I started supplying myself, I didn’t have any sales so they just thought, “We’re just not going to invest – we could go with this brand and we know off the bat that we’ll make a quarter of a million in the first drop. Yeah, she gets notoriety and she gets press but we don’t get any sales traction.” So it was really really difficult initially. The stereotype worked to my advantage in a way because I did get the meetings with the CEOs or the CEOs went to the buyers and said, “Listen, you have to take this meeting.” But then it worked against me because they thought, “Oh, a model. Come on, she’s going to be here one day and out the next. Forget it – we’re not going to make this investment.” But all I needed was one stockist and I got the one stockist and then I worked at it and the sales were great. Then I went to the other stockists and said, “Listen, you can stereotype all you want but I got the sales.” So, I had to be very patient and in business it’s hard. Every time you fall down you’ve got to get back up and if you think you’re not going to fall down, then shame on you, because it happens. The ones that are successful are the ones who keep getting back up.       Anna: You must have thought about branding yourself before you retired from modelling and building it up slowly. How did you start that when you were still modelling?   Caprice: Welp, I have to tell you that when you’re in the modelling business – and not only the modelling business but when you have some notoriety behind that and you become sort of a household name – you start to believe your own bullsh*t, I have to tell you. It’s fantastic on the ego but you don’t think it’s going to end, ever. But for some reason – I think because I know what it’s like to not have enough money to eat – I know what it’s like to be really really down and out, from nothing. When I was 18, my mom said, “See ya, good luck, write me a postcard!” I had no money, it was hard. When I started building my career, it makes you a different person: it makes you a grafter, it makes you hungry, it makes you smarter. So, I knew that the modelling industry would – I was in my 30s and that’s, like, one foot in the grave regardless of how successful you are, so I knew I had to think of Plan B. So, I thought, “What will everyone buy into?” Boom: lingerie. Easy peasy. Right? So I had to think about that while I was at the top of my game because that’s when I had the power – which I did – and I initially started out with a licence deal because I didn’t know what the hell I was doing, so I let someone else take the risk. I convinced the CEO of Debenhams to do that and he did and that was a smart risk to take because I made them very very rich! Then I took the licence back and started to supply myself.         Anna: Let’s talk a bit more about the licensing. You were doing that six-year deal with Debenhams and with By Caprice Home you’ve just done a licence agreement with Sadaqat. They must’ve been totally different experiences. What kind of tips do you have for entrepreneurs who are going through that licence agreement process for the first time? Caprice: So, every deal is different. Let me explain what a licence deal is to begin with. I give them my name and they develop my brand and supply it. Boom. You get five to 12pc of sales. Now with Debenhams, they had creative control, they basically did everything and all I had to do was say, “OK, that’s pretty, yeah great”. It was pretty straightforward stuff. But with Sadaqat it’s a different kind of deal. I have creative input and control, because my name is much more established and I need to protect my name. So, it’s even more to my advantage to be more intertwined and not just to say, “Here’s my name, go get ‘em, bad boy, let’s do this.” With the Sadaqat licence deal I had to build my brand first, [they] didn’t just take me on board with this new idea. I was supplying myself for two years – and then I had the power. Then I went to Sadaqat with gold on a tray saying, “Hey, listen, after two years, we’re making money.” And they were like “Oh, oh.” They’re like the Victoria’s Secret of the home world so there were no qualms – they took it. Obviously, the contracts are iron-clad, you have to – but even with the lawyers I’m telling them what to say and what to do. I mean, you’ve got to be careful. You’re lucky if you get a good lawyer and a good standard contract but you even have to tweak the contract. You have to protect yourself, you have to protect your brand because when you enter the corporate world, they don’t have the same passion. They don’t dot their ‘i’s or cross their ‘t’s. They have more money than God. You know, even though I have a licence deal, I’m very intertwined. Every single stockist I’ve gotten myself – even with Sadaqat – but I have this monster machine. I’m still micro-managing my brand right now. And for me it was really important to go with one of the big boys because now we’re expanding to the world. I just got into Bed, Bath and Beyond, into Macy’s, I’m hoping to sign a deal with this massive conglomerate and they base themselves out of Dubai so I wouldn’t be able to expand the way I’m expanding now [without Sadaqat]. This is another thing in business: you need to know your strengths and your weaknesses. Though some people become very complacent, “Oh we’re making money, we’re making six figures, this is great”, ba ba ba, but you have to keep growing. If you stay stagnant, you will die. And I didn’t have the capability to grow my brand. I needed more people – and even though I was working 12-hour days, I’d just had two babies and they are my priority and they are my business. So, I just couldn’t do it myself and that’s why I went for a licence deal. Anna: Do you feel you were slightly taken advantage because of your lack of business experience in the early days? Caprice: If you think you’re being taken advantage of then boo-hoo on you! It’s your responsibility to go out there and to learn, so that no one ever takes advantage of you. So I’m never a victim here. I am taking full responsibility for everything that happens in my life and that’s my power and that’s what I recommend to all – especially – I’m all about the women and I’m such a supporter of women in business and women in general. Don’t ever be a victim because a lot of us play that card. Don’t do it – you lose your power. You’re not a victim – you take responsibility and you move forward. I learned every integral part of my business. I mean, I trained the people who are so-called ‘specialists’. I know how to manage my brand, I know how to market my brand, I know how to negotiate, I know about the factories. I know a lot about production – I don’t know everything about production – but it hasn’t been a detriment to me, not knowing everything about the factories. But I made it a point to educate myself and I never went to university, I’m a grafter. It’s all about Googling, researching, asking and just doing. Sort of learning from the streets, learning from your mistakes and never making them again. Anna: Has Brexit had any impact on the business? Caprice: Yes. With the exchange rate – massive. Not so much on me anymore. When I was supplying myself, it killed me. The sterling dropped so tremendously and then obviously sales were impacted. It’s tough, I’m not going to lie. Retail is tough. That’s why I need to expand to the world. Anna: I’ve read that when you started By Caprice that you made underwear and swimwear that you wanted to wear and that went wrong because sales suffered as a result. Caprice: Oh my God, everyone knows?! I know now that my personal taste, no one else likes. So I will never let my ego get involved again because I lost money. It makes me laugh with corporates, right – they spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on these marketing research groups. Just look at your sales! Look at your weekly sales and understand your customer. Anna: I understand that you were looking at the sales when you were partnered with Debenhams and that’s how you got ahead and got yourself out of the licence agreement to start supplying yourself. That’s what I do, every single week. I’m obsessed with sell-through on every single stockist and that’s how I get to know my customers. And you know what? By the way, my customer changes. It used to be so young and I catered to that. Now, maybe because I’m middle-aged, it’s getting slightly older: age 18-42. It used to be 18-30. So I have to cater to that, the designs are different – they’re a little bit more elegant, a little bit more timeless, rather than quirky and fun. Anna: Now we have more celebrity-led products, but you were among the early adopters. Caprice: I was the first one. I know Elle Macpherson was doing it but only in Australia, she hadn’t come over [to the UK], so I was one of the first ones. That’s why it was so difficult for Terry Green – he was the CEO of Debenhams – to come on-board right away because this was a new concept. It wasn’t tried and tested. He took a big leap and was hailed king of innovation as a result because we sold out in, like, two weeks. This was the initial stages in 2000, I think. That’s why I initially stopped doing a licence deal with Debenhams because I knew I wouldn’t be the flavour of the moment and they’d dump me. I had to be on top of my game and supply myself to other stockists while my name was hot, while the brand name Caprice was popular – and respected. Anna: How do you think celebrity products have evolved since the early noughties?        Caprice: You know what? It’s saturated. The market is absolutely saturated with celebrity endorsement. I think with some of the celebrities, it works for a year and they’re finished. Then they see who the hot Love Island winner is of that season and then they go with it. With my product it’s different. I actually supplied, I actually paid for the business, I’ve actually become a brand name. I’ve gone past the celebrity endorsement. This is a business.     Anna: What kind of difficulties did you face in moving away from Debenhams? Caprice: The biggest difficulty was that I was risking all my own money. In that first drop I almost lost a quarter of a million. That hurt! And then with the exchange rate – although it impacted me in 2009 – I lost over a million, just in exchange rate. I was so silly. I didn’t understand forwards, I didn’t understand how to buy currencies because remember all my factories were in China, so I was paying for everything in American dollars and then I was getting paid by my stockists in sterling. So I was constantly exchanging money and I just didn’t understand how to do it properly. I didn’t understand forwards, I didn’t understand how to hedge, I would just buy on-spot. How stupid was that? It went from 2.05 to 1.37 almost overnight. I didn’t understand it so I lost a lot of money, so I never made that mistake again. Anna: Of course, because you have to wear all the hats, as they say, when you’re a business owner but there are some things you just don’t have a natural knack for. Caprice: No, and you know what I did? I did research and there’s some great, great Government funding and you have to go and research it. And there are people out there who will help you. This country encourages small business. There’s so much help out there – it’s really, really impressive, actually.    Anna: Was it a combination of the money you made from modelling plus Government investment? Caprice: Yeah, it was my savings, which I lost a lot, so I was hurting. Yet my brand was doing really really well.  By the way, everyone, I pay all my taxes and I’ve paid a lot of taxes for the last 500 years. I have the right to access this and I was smart enough to do this, otherwise I would’ve lost my business. Anna: It can be so volatile. Caprice: Oh, you just don’t know. Not only that, I had to completely readjust my business plan. But thank goodness, one thing that was really important to me was the people who worked for me – I’m quite loyal. So, I wanted that to be the last port of call to get rid of any employees. You’re supporting families, for goodness sakes. So I was fortunate enough to keep my employees but I had to readjust my whole business plan.    Anna: What kind of adjustments did you have to make? Caprice: Well, I had to cut back, even my collections, I had to cut back. I couldn’t take any risk anymore. Before, I was buying a lot of extra stock because I knew the buying patterns of my stockists and my stockists were buying differently. They were much more cautious. And they weren’t buying enough – I knew they weren’t buying enough. So I would take that risk and I would buy deeper at my own risk. I had to stop doing that. So it did impact because I would run out of stock and that’s not good for a business as well – if you’re selling two months later then you have ‘out of stock’ all over the place, it’s a disaster, but I couldn’t take that risk anymore.   I think for people starting out, understanding cash flow, because normally when you start a business you don’t see a return for three to five years – know that. And passion – you’ve got to be obsessed with what you’re doing because you live it. Anna: Great. Well, that’s it from me unless there’s anything you’d like to add or any other wisdom. Caprice: Honey, we killed it – ten times over! Anna: Ha! Thanks for coming on the show. You can find out more about Caprice at capricebourret.com. You can also visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for entrepreneur Q&As and other advice to help you start your own business. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.  

Warum Hubert die Gruppe verlassen hat und Anna "You go, Hubert!" ruft? Und wer ist eigentlich Cala? Eine Folge über Liebe und Egoismus, in der die Frage aufkommt: wieviel Rücksichtnahme braucht es für die Liebe zu sich und anderen? Warum Andrea sich schreien hört, bevor sie fällt und Pardon kein Pardon braucht, weil es gar niemandem leid tut? Ihr erfahrt es in dieser Folge.

Brothers in Time makes it's trimumphant return as we discuses the Marvel universe, American stealth planes and the only two dangerous Australian animals.Brothers in Time's twitter https://twitter.com/Brothers_InTimeKye's twitter https://twitter.com/ItsMeKyeMusic To Fill the Spaces by Anna You

We continue our poorly named 'first impresions' series, that will continue to come out late, with the next episode Rosa.Brothers in Time's twitter https://twitter.com/Brothers_InTimeKye's twitter https://twitter.com/ItsMeKyeMusic To Fill the Spaces by Anna You

Hey it's been a little while since the last upload but here is our take on the second episode of season 11 The Ghost Monument.Brothers in Time's twitter https://twitter.com/Brothers_InTimeKye's twitter https://twitter.com/ItsMeKyeMusic To Fill the Spaces by Anna You

Hey would you look at that there is new doctor who and we're gonna talk about it, but not really, you should know better by now.Twitter https://twitter.com/Brothers_InTimeMusic To Fill the Spaces by Anna You

Who is the best Doctor Who character, team or organisation from Doctor Who that isn't the Doctor from Doctor Who that defends the world in Doctor Who.Twitter https://twitter.com/Brothers_InTimeMusic To Fill the Spaces by Anna You

Are you an HSP? An empath? Just feeling overwhelmed and like you're "doing life bad"? You're going to love this interview with Anna Holden. Anna Holden is a professional intuitive, energy healer and spiritual teacher. She mentors burgeoning psychics and healers in her professional training program, The School for Sacred Rebellion. She also runs The Refuge for Sacred Rebellion, a spiritual enlivenment platform for highly sensitive people, and she hosts The Soul of Sensitivity podcast, a show that explores the intersection of sensitivity and spirituality. WE TALK ABOUT: clairsentience and empathy highly sensitive people as an indicator species reclaiming the sacred self This is not your run of the mill conversation about being a psychic sponge and carrying the weight of the world around with you and being burdened with everyone’s ugly shit. Anna refers to herself as a "sensitive revolutionary" ... and she has a whole different empowering angle on this topic. MENTIONED ON THE SHOW Anatomy of the Spirit by Caroline Myss Heidi Frank Palmer https://subtlebodysolutions.com/ GUEST LINKS - Anna Holden sensitivityuncensored.com Soul of Sensitivity podcast Anna's Free Guide You Are a Goddamn Magical Unicorn The Refuge for Sacred Rebellion The School for Sacred Rebellion HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Anna: I'm Anna and I work with people who are highly sensitive, empathic, intuitive, and usually these people find me because they're overwhelmed. So I work specifically with people who are highly sensitive to help them develop their intuitive channels and strengthen their sense of sensitivity so it's not overwhelming them, and that they're able to work with it. I see that, I mean, I really see sensitivity and being an empath as a really huge gift that we're not given any tools around, any sort of know-how around, so I kind of create a structure and a language to be able to work with those things. And I do that one-on-one, I do that in my membership group, and I do that in different courses and an intuitive school that I'm working on. Slade: Very cool. I want to come back a little bit and talk sort of about your manifesto, and the whole thing about sensitivity in particular how you kind of relate that to everything. That's something I want to dive in a little bit deeper on. One of the things I'm interested in - I've been asking a lot of people this, so I'm going to ask you - when you meet someone for the first time in real life and they ask you what you do, what do you say? Anna: Oh Jesus. You know, it really - it's funny, because I listened to the episode that you're referencing and I'm like, 'I'm taking notes', because this is something that I still struggle with, you know? It really depends. Sometimes I tell people I'm an intuitive. If I feel pretty comfortable with people I'll tell them I'm an intuitive. If it's somebody who is just totally out of this realm, I'll call it, sometimes I'll say that I have a healing arts practice. Sometimes I will say that I work with people who are highly sensitive to help them manage overwhelm. Those are usually the three places I will go, but I find it, I really find it a struggle. And for me, it's the sense of, how much do I - or it's kind of this battle between how much can I own about what I do and how much is actually going to get in and how much is safe in this situation? Slade: Yeah, well, and you know what? Also, some people ask that question very politely with the expectation that they're probably going to get a boring answer. Anna: Mmhmm! Slade: You know, like, 'I work as a clerk in a shipping department', or whatever. And sometimes people, just to be polite, might ask a bit of follow-up questions, but most people, myself included, when I ask somebody what they do, they may tell me and I'm like, 'Oh, okay, cool!' And I just kind of gloss over it and move on with the conversation. So I think that we feel especially under-the-gun about our identity in some way that we're projecting onto the situation a little bit. But I do, you know, I live in the Bible belt, so I don't walk around calling myself a psychic to every stranger that I meet. But I will say that I have learned, over time, more and more, how many people DO get me, and DO like what I do, and sometimes I'm pre-judging them and thinking, 'Oh, they're probably super conservative and traditional, and this would wig them out.' And then I find out later that they're not at all. And then I feel like as ass for, you know... being weird about it. Anna: Oh, I so resonate with that! Because sometimes, I've said this before, particularly in the early parts of my practice, where I was like, I feel like the witch on the edge of town that everybody goes to but nobody talks about. Slade: Yes! Anna: Where it's like, sometimes yeah, I'll tell people I'm a psychic and they'll come up to me later on and be like, 'I really want to know more. I just feel really drawn to knowing more.' And it's always kind of funny when that happens, that there is an opening. Oftentimes people are really searching for this, and particularly people who are more conservative often are really, you know, looking for some of this and when - we can create an opening for curiosity, I suppose. Slade: Well and another weird full-circle thing that I've discovered is that sometimes people of religious faith, even though I think, 'Oh, they're really traditional in their faith', people of faith generally are more open to conversations about faith. They're more open to the subject matter of supernatural phenomenon. They believe in angels and guides and archetypes and deities and all this kind of stuff actually. So sometimes they're weirdly open minded about the metaphysical part of it, almost a part that the intellectual crowd would dismiss us for. Sometimes the little old ladies who go to church every day, they're the mystical one. They're totally like down-low witches, you know what I mean? Anna: Totally! Yeah, you know, the way that I relate that is, so I grew up in Utah in Mormon country and my - I was not raised Mormon, but my mom's family is very Mormon. I think she's the only of her eight other siblings that left the Mormon church. So when we go to family reunions, there's always been this like, you know, we kind of get very reserved and we stop cussing. There's just not a lot, besides traffic and weather, that we talk about. But I was really surprised in that - and I feel kind of bad that I was surprised, like not putting as much, kind of faith in these cousins, particularly a couple of women that I grew up with, where we had this fantastic conversation about sensitivity and energy and different energy tools to help her sensitive kids and she was so open to all that, and a very, very devout, religious person. And I realized, wow, that is MY prejudice. That was ME getting in the way of what turned out to be this really beautiful exchange. Slade: Yeah, that's very cool. So obviously you didn't always identify as a professional intutiive or as a psychic new age person, so how did you become one? Anna: Oh gosh, yeah. What's kind of interesting is that I was a scientist first. I have a Bachelors degree and a Masters degree, Slade, in science. In conservation science and environmental science and really, I kind of chalk that up to I'm-really-interested-in-nature. I'm really... I find so many answers in nature and I realized recently - not recently but I've realized over the years that I really have an intuitive, you know, I have intuitive telepathic conversations when I'm in nature. That was kind of the place that I lived - in this very analytical, very scientific place. But on the other side of that, I was always seeking, and, you know, growing up in Utah as a non-Mormon, where everybody (I did a whole podcast on this) everybody that I was around. The town that I was in was a huge percentage Mormon, I think, in the '80s, 80% Mormon. So pretty much all the people that I went to school with had this really strong sense of relationship with God that included a lot of rules and books and, just things I didn't have, but I was really interested in having a relationship with something higher because I saw spirits and animal spirits and all kinds of things. And so, in my early twenties, I started exploring that kind of on the side. I started - well, after I went to college, I started studying. I studied some reiki, I studied qigong, I read the Tao Te Ching, I dabbled in Buddhism, just trying to find a sense of connection and along the way, when I was Colorado (I had taken a year off of school to follow a guy, ahem) I met this great community of intuitives like, the first psychics that I've ever met, and had really ground-breaking, earth-shaking experiences of validation, of really feeling seen for the first time in my life. And it gave in me a sense of direction that I had never really had before. So, over the years, I continued dabbling in meditation and different energy healing arts and it was funny because I think at that time in my early twenties, I read my first Caroline Myss book, the Anatomy of the Spirit, and I was like, 'Ohmygosh. This is so cool. I totally want to do this.' But thinking that it was really out of reach, you know, believing that it's something you're born with or you're not and... Eventually, in my mid-twenties, I asked the main intuitive that I worked with, 'Hey, do you think I could do this?' And she just, she kind of laughed, you know? She was like, 'Ohmygosh, Anna. Of course you can do this!' And so I just started taking some basic energy management meditation classes and then eventually decided to join a full clairvoyant training program. And clairvoyant, I mean, clairvoyance, you've said this on your podcast, where it's like clairvoyance is the only thing people are teaching which I totally agree with that. And for me, it was really helpful because I am very clairsentient, in a way that's actually kind of damaging and hard on my body. So learning to be clairvoyant was really helpful, and I actually then didn't right go out into the world and get readings, or to give readings rather. I had to, I kind of was very type-A, I had to get all the certifications first and studied yoga and ayurveda and stuff. That's the general story. I then eventually, when I moved to Seattle about six years ago, I was going to set up as an ayurvedic practitioner and the laws in Washington are a lot stricter than where they were when I was living in California. I was like, Crap! I can't set up as an ayurvedic practitioner. Well, I guess i'll just give readings then. So I feel like I kind of fell into being a professional psychic but that was definitely the place where I was supposed to be. Slade: Mmm... By the way, your website is called SensitivityUncensored.com, if anybody's listening and they want to kind of look at you and check out your site while we're talking, because there's so much about the personality. The imagery on your site, the language on your site, that really drew me in. And seeing some of that, I immediately connected with you and couldn't help but feel that you must've been motivated to create something in a response to all that goody-goody that's out there that I sort of feel like I try to respond to as well. So I was wondering, what motivated, just kind of the vibe of your site and the concept? Anna: Yeah, oh that's great. That's part of the reason why I was drawn to you, Slade, it was the less hearts and flowers. So I was like, 'Oh, thank God.' Someone else, you know? Slade: Yeah! Anna: Well there's a couple things. First actually, was that I recognized that the clients, the highly sensitive clients I was attracting, one of the real challenges they had was this real sense of seriousness, that everything was so serious. And, like you know what happens when we get serious all the time. Our energy shuts off. It stops flowing, you know? So part - so they learned, working with me, that we're not going to be super serious. We're going to go through important, difficult stuff and we're not going to do that in a life or death, with a life or death energy, you know? We're going to go through a little bit more lighthearted so that we can stay just above and work with what's there. So that was the first thing. The second reason is that I had, before that, kind of pigeon-holed myself with my previous website as like, the perfect healer. I think you know what I'm talking about. It was really annoying, Slade, my website. And I think about it now, I cringe. It's like when you are in the year 2000 with a 1981 haircut. You're like, 'Oh, that should have been updated.' So I had felt like I had created this pressure for myself to show up perfectly, which is like, I'm nowhere near perfect, and it just wasn't the vibe that I actually worked from. So the website was a bit of a 'coming out' in a way for me, being like, 'Hey, yeah i'm a healer and I do things really, really differently.' And then kind of the third thing is, I have avoided for years calling myself psychic because I don't tend to like a lot a lot of the psychic community, kind of that new-age vibe because it's like the Law of Attraction and that's all that exists. Which, like, I just want to vomit a little with that, and I see a lot of clients getting really hung up on some of these new age principles that have been spun really poorly, taught really poorly, kind of from a, I like to call it, Puritanical way, where it's like, 'I did everything right. Why isn't the Universe giving me what I want?' And i'm like, okay well we just kind of - that's not how it works! Slade: There's a kind of fundamentalism that has crept in to it all. Anna: Exactly! Yeah! Slade: Yeah. I totally know - well, I have to say, in keeping with kind of lightness and the vibe of your site when people first land on it, they'll know what I'm talking about. You have to go check this out because I honestly kind of felt like, and I don't mean this to sound in any way like you're smaller than me or less mature, something like that, but I felt like you were like my little sister who I thought of as being like an elementary school kid who suddenly got really cool and turned punk rock over the summer, and I was like, 'Wait a minute!' And I looked at you and I was like, 'Oh wait, she's cooler than me!" And it felt like something I did respond to, you're right. The less hearts and flowers thing. But you had it dialed up in a way that was particularly feminine, I think, but in a badass kind of way, you know, like a babydoll punk kind of vibe. There's something kind of retro '90s grunge about it. I don't know how to put words on it but it was really refreshing and exciting to me to see that, and I do think that you're in a safe space, talking to this group of people who follow me or listen to this podcast. They will totally get you and they will appreciate it and they will laugh in all the right places and be excited. Anna: Right, right. Slade: But you have this manifesto and again, the language that you use, everything is very, kind of, cool and grounded and kind of in your face in a good way that kind of wakes you up. But it's not trying too hard. It feels very natural. It feels, like you said, you came out of some pristine kind of shell that you were trying to be in, and sort of let it all out and, you know what it is? It's like a cool, it's like a cool hair cut. You know, like when you cut all your hair off and you dye it blonde, which I know that you recently did. Anna: Yes! Hahaha... Slade: It's like your site kind of feels like the spiritual 'coming out' version of that. Like, I'm going to go into the bathroom and I'm gonna shave my head and then I'm gonna come out and be like, raccoon eyeliner watch out. Anna: Yeah. Slade: But having said all that, that definitely is like a, WHAT? You know, like it made me stop in my tracks and want to come in. But then when I started to read your actual manifesto, kind of your About page, about where you're coming from and everything, there's some real depth and philosophical originality going on here. So, I want you to kind of talk to me about this concept of Sacred Rebellion, and it's clear from your domain name, Sensitivity Uncensored, that there's this relationship between highly sensitive people and then this concept of rebellion. Explain all that to us. What is that manifesto? Anna: Yeah, absolutely. So I, you know that when I wrote the manifesto, I mean, that comes straight from inside. I feel every word of that manifesto. It wasn't something, when I created my website, that I was like, and then I will have a manifesto! It was like, one day I was like, I have a manifesto! And it must be written! And... I think this is actually where my science background comes in, because something that I observe about the people I work with, people who are sensitive, who are empathic, who are intuitive, we have so many answers for the problems that are plaguing the world. I mean, we are like, I liken this in science to the indicator species, you know? A way you could say that more commonly is, the canary in the coal mine. We can, we feel what's happening. We have a knowingness about what's happening when we're clear. Sometimes we see, we hear, and we receive tremendous amounts of guidance. I really believe that there's a critical place for sensitive, empathic, intuitive people on the planet, and that we currently have a culture that is not set up to recognize our gifts. Nobody is going to step aside for that to happen right? That has to come from us claiming our space, finding our power and our place, wherever we want that to be. I'm not saying we all need to get on the front lines and be social justice warriors or something, you know? But coming into our power and having enough personal sovereignty to do our thing in the world. No matter if that's, you know, being a professional psychic or being a really good interior designer, or an artist that just moves people. I just feel like it's so important. And so, the Sacred Rebellion is that claiming. The Sacred Rebellion has two parts. First, it's about personal practices and personal tools that help us come to a place of spiritual and personal sovereignty, where we are much more able to clearly able to discern between what is our STUFF to deal with and what is the stuff of someone else or the world. Basically being able to discern between energies, right? So that we can do US. That's the first part of Sacred Rebellion. It's a re-claiming, a claiming, remembering. The second part, and I think this is so critical, is the 'so that'. We do that work - SO THAT - we can be in this greater world, earth, doing our part, for humanity, the earth, consciousness, whatever. So, and you pointed this out, so much of my work is really grounded because I believe it has to be. If we really want to change the situation of the planet and really help, you know, human consciousness raise up or, however you want to, however you want to talk about that goal. So, again, the Sacred Rebellion is about doing those two things and doing them in community with other highly sensitive, empathic, intuitive people. I mean, I think I've heard you said, Slade, sorry, you had said, Slade, that, you know, we're spread out, as intuitives. You have that theory we're not all bunched together, and how isolating that is. Slade: Mmhmm. Anna: And I'm like, 'Okay! Let's group up!' Like, we need community, so that's where my Refuge for Sacred Rebellion is that place where we come together and do this. Slade: Yeah, talk about, a little bit about this. It's kind of a program, right? Or it's, I mean, it's a community. You explain what it is, the Refuge for Sacred Rebellion. Anna: Yeah. The Refuge for Sacred Rebellion - it's a membership group. It's a place for highly sensitive, or sensitive souls, empaths, intuitives, others, people who have felt 'othered', to come into community with other highly sensitive empathic psychic others. And I co-lead this with a woman named Heidi Frank Palmer, and she was a long-term client/student of mine who's right up with me, and we are co-leading the space. What we, our goals for this space is, are to create a real sense of community. To provide ample opportunity for us to get to know each other, to share what's happening for us daily and where we're at in our stories. We do this through a Facebook group. We also have monthly discussion calls about different subjects that are either guided by us or guided by other members. Basically the things that creative people struggle with. Like, we break it down. We have what we call 'office hours', kind of stealing something from my college professors, where we kind of hang out online, and if you want to, you can come and ask us questions and get advice as part of the group. And then, twice a year, I teach the Fundamental Tools for my School for Sacred Rebellion and intuitive development Program, and this was, these are a set of tools that I created and originally was calling, 'Sensitive Self-Defense'. It's like spiritual hygiene for sensitives. It's a bunch of meditation tools that really help us take those first steps to getting spiritually sovereign. I used to sell this course for so much money and whatever, and now it's just like, you're in the Refuge, you'll get these tools. Twice a year, we go through it together. You can join us. You can not join us. They're available within the membership area of the website so you can refresh, or work through, at your own pace. Basically we are trying to create a place where you can come, you know, come together and go through this experience of being a sensitive, creative, intuitive soul on this planet at this time. Slade: Hmm, okay. I was hoping that you would have some advice for sensitive people. You kind of touched on that idea of the first thing that you need to do, that kind of sensitive self-defense, and I encounter people who refer to themselves as HSP, Highly Sensitive People, empaths. One of the first things that I teach everyone who comes into my intuitive training is a different kind of shielding technique that's not just a, you know, wall of white light and bleach. It's like, it's too much, you know. I always tell people there's a difference between a blindfold and sunglasses. Anna: Yes, yes! Slade: So what are some tips you have for someone - because the thing about people who are empathic and highly sensitive is, they're the most likely to be shut down. They're the most likely to have walls. They're the most likely to be like, so withdrawn within themselves that they're not seeking, they're not reaching for this stuff like some of us are. So when you encounter one of those people, and you're kind of triaging that highly sensitive empath, and you need to give them a pair of sunglasses instead of a blindfold, what do you advise? What's the first thing to do? Anna: Such a great question. So, the thing that I notice about these people, I mean, this is everyone I work with, is that, I mean, rightly so, they're inside themselves, right? Because the world is fucking harsh. So I just see no judgment in that. They've been doing what they learned to do to protect themselves, you know? Good job. Now it's not working so let's do something else, right? So, what I notice is that HSP, what they do is they eject. Like, their aura usually, not always, but usually the first thing I see clairvoyantly when a HSP comes at me is, they're not in their body. Slade: Mmm... Anna: Because their body is painful. It's too painful to be in their body. It's scary. It's over-whelming. There's so much sensation, you know? So they're just like, I'm ejecting into the spiritual, the theoretical space that is so much easier for me to be in. So before I actually offer sunglasses, and I used to do this, Slade, I used to just offer protection first, and it didn't work for HSP. Slade: Okay. Anna: Because for them, what I find, is they've got to get grounded first. Slade: Okay. Anna: They HAVE to be in their body. So that stuff actually, the first thing that I give them is, I teach them how to create a really dynamically solid grounding cord I'll call it. So it's not like you're stuck to your chair, you know, but it's a way to plug in and to really fill up the space of your body. And then after that, I offer actually a little bit of like, I call it 'turning on the tap', how do you then get nourished with air and water, now that you're in your body, and then I give protection. Because I think about it like, I think about protection kind of like the alarm system of a house. Right? And say this alarm system works like, will only protect if you and all your shit is in your house. You know what I mean? If they're not in their bodies, then what's the alarm system doing, you know? Slade: Mmm... Anna: That's kind of what I, that's how I explain it at least. And this is just came from me working with THIS population for so long, that I was like, Why isn't a protection working? Oh. Because they're not there. Slade: I had an image come to me while you were speaking. I'm just going to share it, that for me, I had this kind of fitness image come in, which was the idea that without core strength, you're not really in a position to work a bunch of kung fu and martial arts, you know what I mean? Anna: Haha.. Totally! Slade: You can't throw a punch if you don't have a strong core. You can't spin around and kick someone in the face if you don't have balance, you know what I mean? You can't put all these muscles on top of something that doesn't have a centre. Which I think, in general, is a lot of what, when people call themselves spiritual seekers or they're working on all these tools and all this stuff, I often find that they're orbiting the body... Anna: Yes! Slade: ...playing with all this stuff that's kind of like in the upper chakras and you've heard me talk about this and the whole idea of re-booting, re-grounding energy and working back up again if you feel like you're frazzled or fried or whatever. But that's coming to me as a part of this picture of what you're describing, like, it doesn't make sense for you... like, you gotta be in your body first before you can manage the kind of shell of energy. Anna: Well, absolutely. I mean, for most HSP, this is our natural tendency, to take up space in the upper chakras at kind of the expense of the lower. And this, then, just generally makes us feel like we do life bad. Slade: Yes! Anna: You know? Most people who are not sensitive and empathic, you know, no judgment on that, but they naturally tend to just hang out in their lower chakras, so it's like, easy to get a job, and kind of easy to make money and they're not too worried about what their Spirit's doing, you know? It's just like, it's basic. And then, HSP we're all up in our upper chakras going like, why can't I get a job that I like? Like, why... Slade: Yes... Anna: Why is this... And it's like, Yeah! There's a gift about occupying those upper chakras. And, you do have a body. And, you don't have to occupy those lower chakras in the same way that everyone else does. So let's find a way to occupy them that, you know, really resonates and validates who you are as a Spirit. Slade: Yeah, it's like your Wifi isn't going to work if the little box isn't plugged in to the wall. Anna: Yes! I love that - that's totally it. Yes. Slade: Yeah, and the thing is, is like, when I talk about people doing that, and I do talk about it because I see it in clients and I see it in myself. There's been this ongoing theme this year where I keep returning to real basic stuff about the body and wellness, and nutrition, and simple fitness. And the thing is, is I don't think that any of that stuff has to be complicated. I think, actually, everyone's impulse is to over-complicate it by a bunch of outfits and special shoes and like, go for a marathon and, I mean it's good to have goals and stuff but I think that if you are sort of working in all those upper chakras and they're not working right for some reason, like you said, I feel like I'm doing this wrong, then look at really simple grounding. Do you walk around outside? Anna: Yes! Slade: Do you feel sunlight on your eyelids? That creates a vitamin in your body, you know? And getting back to your, sort of, I want to say it's kind of neo-pagan, in a way, like the way that you connect from your science background in conservation and ecology back to the sort of you know, earth as life force as a living entity, all that kind of stuff. So there's that connection to it as well, and that's really simple, basic, animal, like you said, lower chakra kind of stuff to work on. And we're all guilty of it. Anna: Oh, yeah. Slade: I mean, I spend most of my time trying to climb up in my third eye and balance on my divine crown all day long and, you know, all this kind of stuff and, you know, everything from the heart chakra up is like getting all this attention and it was a real life-changer for me when I was forced to rebuild my body, first with yoga, and then on some other kinds of fitness. But it came out of a really, like, ohmygod, I had surgery, and my core muscles had been cut into and I had to rebuild my basic strength and I did that after doing all the psychic stuff. So I don't want anybody to think that you can't be perfectly great psychic if you've got, you know, if you're chubby and you're working on it, it's okay. You can still do all this stuff. Anna: Oh, god, yeah! Slade: I used to do all this stuff. But do look at, if it's not working, maybe this is, what we're talking about is the reason why. Anna: Yeah, totally. I just want to add, you can be chubby and not working on it. Slade: You can. Anna: There's nothing wrong with that. Slade: Absolutely. Because, like you said, some people who are really sensitive are not spending time in the body, it's on autopilot in some way, and that could include being sedentary and sort of eating on autopilot and all kinds of things that go along with that. And you are spending all your time in your head. And years and years ago when I tried to quit smoking, I was trying to treat it as an addiction and I went to a doctor who asked me a gazillion questions about my lifestyle. It felt more like a psychiatric assessment, if you've ever been to someone, you know, to be kind of assessed for depression or something like that. There are these elaborate quizzes that you take and it was that kind of process. He told me at the end of it, he said, you're not addicted to the cigarettes, you're addicted to the endorphin that the body releases when you starve yourself and you're using caffeine to stimulate and to stay in your mind and you spend a lot of time doing activities that are super super mental. And it's like your happy place is to feel like a robot, like you're riding around inside this machine and your body is not really you. You're just your brain. And that, I don't know how that changed my perspective but that was the clue to me realizing what was really happening, and it was that I was disassociating. Anna: Totally. And, even like addiction energy is kind of an upper chakra energy anyway though, so it's probably just, you know, easier to focus on and it's funny, as you talked about that, the image I got is like, oh! That kind of helped you drop into your body and kind of let go of that concept of addiction. Slade: Yes. Anna: Super cool. Slade: Total tangent there but I feel like it's all related. It's all related. Anna: Yeah! Slade: I keep having this image, like a... There's gonna be some links that I'm gonna share but there's some images of you on your website, on your psychic school, on your intuitive school program page, that are out in nature and they're very, um, they're very much the, that kind of intersection of spirituality and nature and... That's what this has all been about for me, is kind of bridging those worlds, so to speak. I think that that's really what you're doing, from my perspective. But I'm interested in what you hope to contribute to this kind of new age world, spirituality, personal development... What do you kind of hope to offer? Anna: I think we're... Yeah, that's such a great question. I think you're the first one to really ask it to me. So, you know, I think what I'm really trying to contribute is, there's been a really large focus in this realm of the upper chakras, of transcending the human experience. And I think we've got to stop doing that. To be honest, if we want things to change on the ground, if we actually want to improve this world that we are in, in these human bodies, then I don't think that we can have spirituality divorced from the body, and divorced from what happens in the body. So what I'm hoping to leave behind is, is that. It's how to have all of this juicy, creative, inspirational, psychic stuff, you know, as an in-the-body experience. And actually have it connect us more to our humanity and to, then, how we interact with other humans in the community. I see so much spiritual bypassing these days. I see so much pain and trauma inflicted on other people, saying from some kind of spiritual elitism viewpoint that I think is so harmful, and I see it because we're using our spirituality kind of divorced from our humanity, from our soul, from those deep soulful chakras. So I think that's what I'm trying to do, and really help HSP and empaths step into their power, because there's a power and there's a place for all of us here, particularly us sensitive empaths, and it's so easy for the culture that we're in to feel like there's NOT a place and I just... There is. I think I'm going to say that until I die. There's a place for us and it's really important. Slade: Mmm... We have to talk about your, the free book that you offer on your website and I'm really excited about this. I don't think that, if I'm projecting into the future, I don't think I'd title the podcast this, but I wanted to just steal it and make it the title of the podcast. The title of your e-book is, 'You Are a Goddamn Magical Unicorn', which, I have decided, wins the award for the best title on a subscriber incentive that I have personally seen, and I've looked at a lot of them because I coach people around this, and I was like, Yes! That is awesome. So, 'You're a Goddamn Magical Unicorn'. It's free to everyone who goes to your website. What's it about? Anna: Yeah. So this is actually a guidebook for HSP. It's kind of like, oh! So you found out you're highly sensitive. Here's your instruction manual. Not instruction manual, but your guidebook. And I wrote it from that place of, we are being too goddamn serious, you know. We, there's so much tiptoeing around our sensitivity and just... I just wanted it to be out there. You are special and goddamnit we need you. So this is, I'm not gonna lie, I may have had some whisky while I wrote this, but this is a guidebook written in, take the title, it's written in that sort of tone. It also, though, offers really practical suggestions for getting in your body for grounding. It offers guided meditations. You also, if you sign up for my newsletter, you get a book and you get the guided meditation that's in the book as an audio file. So you get both. Slade: Okay, cool. Anna: Yeah. And I think I even, ohmygosh, I think I even created a unicorn mandala for you to colour in there. But basically it's like, Here's what high-sensitivity means, like, this is what it means biologically. Here's how herd animals, because all mammals have highly sensitive individuals. So here's how mammals handle high sensitivity, which I think is super cool. Like, the highly sensitive deer or like zebras of any herd are so revered, because they're the first ones to know that there's danger. Slade: Mmm! Anna: So everyone is like, What are the sensitives doing? We will follow the sensitives. And it's just in humans where we get all backwards. And so, I talk about the herd mentality in a very fun way and then I talk about, yeah, taking up space as your own highly sensitive being, and here are three ways you can get started. Slade: Okay. That's awesome. That's exactly kind of what I was kind of hoping that you would have somewhere to send someone. When someone approaches me and they say, 'Help, I'm just kind of like, curled up in a ball here.' I always want to say, 'Do this.' And you're right. I teach them how to protect themselves first, and I like what you talked about on the show about the need to be in the body first and all that. So I think that's an incredibly cool resource even if it didn't have such a kickass title, it sounds like a really awesome piece of information, so definitely we will link to that. Go to your website. It's right there on the homepage and you can't miss that cute little image. So what's next for you? Do you have any big projects on the horizon here? Anna: Yes, yes. I have been building what I'm calling the School for Sacred Rebellion for awhile now. And this is kind of the next step from the Refuge. So the Refuge for Sacred Rebellion is that place where we all get started together. Within that, you learn those sensitive self-defense tools that are kind of like Spiritual Hygiene 101. The School for Sacred Rebellion is my intuitive development program where we go through all of the clairs. We learn how to do, um, you can jump in kind of. Part One is doing basic aura healings. So actually working in, I call it 'Activating the healer' because I believe we're all healers so let's just find yours. Let's find your healer and bring them to the forefront. And you can kind of stop there, and that provides you with a tremendous amount of resources just for working with your own energy and doing healings on yourself and with others. And if you want to dive deeper into those intuitive arts, it goes into Part Two, which is developing clairvoyance, claircognizance, clairsentience, clairaudience, all of that and at the end, we finish with this really cool integration mentorship, because I don't want to create little Anna-bots, you know, like you're having to go out in the world and do what I do. The people that are, that this program is really for are, you know, people who are already doing some form of healing work. I mean, it doesn't have to be for this, but people who are like, 'Yeah, I'm a massage therapist', 'I'm a yoga teacher', 'I'm a doctor', and I would just love to have more to offer my people. So you go through this program, you learn which of the clairs are your strengths, how you want to put them together and then in the mentorship, we, you basically get a bunch of one-on-one and group support in how are you going to go do you now, in this world? Slade: One of the things that I notice about it that I thought was really appealing was the fact that it's broken up into stages, almost more like, if you go to college, and you take, like, 101, and then you come back the next semester and do 201, you know, 102, however they number it, I can't remember, it's been too long. But I like the fact that you can kind of come in and get a stage of the work and then get off and work at that level, or you could keep going, or you could come back and go continue on with the next thing. Anna: Yup. Slade: But rather than it being ONE big huge long program that you commit to from the beginning, you can kind of go through it, you can break it up a little bit more, which I think is gonna really appeal to people, both for financial reasons and also just because absorbing and processing some of this stuff, you need to sit with a tool, like what you just described, you know... Anna: Totally. Slade: ...discovering the self-healer within you, that's something you could sit in that might carry you for months, as you're processing that and integrating that into your life, before you feel like you need to come back to the next thing. Rather than kind of stuffing your face with too much stuff and then trying to figure out later, why did I buy all this, you know. Anna: Yeah. Slade: I want to mention, too, that the course is really not officially launching until the summer of 2018 but Anna has decided to share the page with us. Like I said, check it out just for the cool photography, if nothing else. There's some really great imagery there, great information, and if someone does go to that page and they're interested, they can go ahead and start working with some of these programs? Anna: They can, well, yes and no. So my - if you get to the school and you are just super stoked about it, and you really want to be in it, then get into the Refuge, because the Refuge is where you get those, kind of the starter tools... Slade: Okay. Anna: Like, the prerequisite tools that really guide everything else. The next round of teaching those tools is going to be early Fall of this year. And then there'll be another class of the School. Eventually, I hope to have enough co-teachers and enough bandwidth. I have a one year old right now so I don't have a huge amount of bandwidth, that I can have, you know, multiple sections of the courses going at once, so it is like, 'Oh yeah, that section is offered then and then.' Slade: Okay. Anna: But right now it's a little bit more linear, just because of all of that. Slade: Yeah. Okay. So we're getting a sneak peak at what's coming from you. Anna: Yeah! Slade: And that's very, very cool, and still, the entry point would be to get into the Refuge and start working with the tools and the community there, either way. But we'll link to it just so you can check it out and see what's on offer and see your cool new haircut. And um... Anna: Oh, it's funny, Slade. So I just want to share something with you, with the audience, which is that, so I cut all my hair off and dyed it platinum blonde, which I loved. And now I've been doing a bunch of mountain biking in Seattle, around Seattle, and I nailed these upgrades to my bike and my husband was kind of frowning, like, Okay, I won't bleach my hair anymore, in order to pay for the upgrades. You know, to kind of make it even. So right now, I'm kind of rocking '90s boy band colours. Slade: Okay! Anna: You know, like, it's like a little '90s boy band. I'm not that stoked on it but it's kind of funny. Slade: Hey, listen, one of my best girl friends is platinum and it's, you gotta be like, dedicated to platinum. It's a lot of upkeep and a lot of chemistry involved. Yeah. It's not just something you do once. Anna: Nope. Slade: Anna, it's been really fantastic capturing this conversation with you and hearing about your take on everything. I definitely learned a few things and I'm processing some things differently, having spoken with you about HSP and how to, how to work with that. I think I will go away and ponder and probably do some things differently. Definitely gonna be sending some people to the Goddamn Magical Unicorn book and... But just before you leave us, tell everyone where they can go to find you online. Anna: Yeah, you can find me at www.sensitivityuncensored.com. And then I'm also, I'm kind of on Facebook but really I'm more on Instagram @sensitivity_uncensored. Slade: Cool. We'll put all the links in the Show Notes to the various parts of your site that we highlighted. That was great, Anna. Thank you for coming on. Anna: Yeah, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.