Podcasts about anna so

In this podcast, Anna is with Danny Hamm. Danny has a spirit of gratitude with a heart and humor as big as his ambitions to impact lives on a global scale. On a mission to sprinkle a little extra awesome into every life he touches, whether he's diving into the deep end of mindset and performance coaching, navigating the wild waves of marketing and e-commerce, or leading a secret society (okay, not so secret) in the blockchain realm for passive income, Danny's all about making a splash with a positive impact. Focused on leading people from great to exceptional, Danny is passionate about inspiring high achievers to maximize their potential in the game of life mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, and financially. Sculpting a world where gratitude is the standard and greatness is just the starting line. They also talked about: 03:19 Danny's journey to coaching 12:16 Everything's different for everybody  20:05 If something is worthwhile it takes effort  31:46 How can Danny help you  38:34 What does freedom mean to Danny Quotes:  “You can't make anybody do anything until they're ready.” -Danny  “Everyone's got their own story. It doesn't mean one is better or worse than the other.” -Anna “So whatever our challenges can actually, we can spin that. It can be our lead to success or happiness,” -Anna “If it is worthwhile, It takes effort period, right? Otherwise, it wouldn't be worthwhile because like free things have no value.“ -Danny    Do you want to be a speaker/guest on my podcast? Book a call here: https://calendly.com/annadavidson/interview   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GET THIS FREE EBOOK:  Manifesting with Visualisation http://bit.ly/3q46nDr   Check these out:  Amazon Profits Accelerator (Free 3-Day Webinar): https://bit.ly/34e9cJh   Amazon 101 Academy: https://bit.ly/2FEwWfW   Publish Your Book on Amazon 6-week Program: https://annadavidsonthawe.clickfunnels.com/kdp6   Publish Your Book on Amazon 12-month Program: https://annadavidsonthawe.clickfunnels.com/order-form-publish   Join My Tribe For Free eCommerce Training  https://www.facebook.com/groups/ecomqueenaccelerator/   Visit My Website Here https://theannadavidson.com/   You can also reach Anna on her socials: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theannadavidson/   Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/TheAnnaDavidson   YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9CXb8SSinZT70ULDspIHUA   LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-davidson-935b1844/  

In this episode, Anna is with Ashley Patrick. Ashley is the money queen. She is from Budgets Made Easy and she's going to share with you how you can look after your money a lot better and also look at strategies to earn more income. Ashley helps empty (or soon-to-be) nesters manage the next stage of their financial lives without all the guilt, overwhelm, and shame surrounding their past money mistakes. She started her journey as a money coach after paying off $45,000 in just 17 months! She has helped hundreds of women pay off hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt! They also talked about:  02:01 Ashley's journey to balance, control, and perseverance  14:16 Love, Money, Mind  21:45 The Drive Framework  26:35 How Ashley can help you 30:53 What does freedom mean to Ashley? Quotes: “But the word mind doesn't do it justice. For me, it's not about being positive all the time. It is about nurturing our mind and always making sure that life can get us down and we can have a really crappy day” .-Anna “So the more excited you can be about that picture of where you're going, then everything else will follow.” -Ashley  “But it's also important to think about other things that may come up along your way because it's not going to be an overnight thing. You're not going to wake up and be a completely different person tomorrow. It's a journey.” -Ashley “Just start with one little thing, because if you try and go in and do all the things at once. It can be overwhelming and it's going to be harder to follow through.” -Ashley    Check out Ashley Patrick's social media accounts and websites: www.budgetsmadeeasy.com  https://www.instagram.com/budgetsmadeeasy/  www.TheMoneyMindsetPodcast.com    Do you want to be a speaker/guest on my podcast? Book a call here: https://calendly.com/annadavidson/interview  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- GET THIS FREE EBOOK:  Manifesting with Visualisation http://bit.ly/3q46nDr  Check these out:  Amazon Profits Accelerator (Free 3-Day Webinar): https://bit.ly/34e9cJh  Amazon 101 Academy: https://bit.ly/2FEwWfW  Publish Your Book on Amazon 6-week Program: https://annadavidsonthawe.clickfunnels.com/kdp6  Publish Your Book on Amazon 12-month Program: https://annadavidsonthawe.clickfunnels.com/order-form-publish  Join My Tribe For Free eCommerce Training  https://www.facebook.com/groups/ecomqueenaccelerator/  Visit My Website Here https://theannadavidson.com/  You can also reach Anna on her socials: Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/theannadavidson/  Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/TheAnnaDavidson  YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9CXb8SSinZT70ULDspIHUA  LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-davidson-935b1844/ 

We're back with another episode in our Parenting series, in which we explore our relationships with our children. In today's episode, we're talking about embracing all kinds of learning. Most of us grew up hearing that school is where learning happens and that the things that are taught in a school curriculum are the important things to learn. Honoring all the many ways that we can learn and the many unique interests that each person has is another way to deepen our connection with the people in our lives.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. What are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? What about outside the teacher-student dynamic?2. What does your child like to do at home? What interest(s) are they expressing through that activity? Can you think of more ways you can bring that interest into their days?3. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child's burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing they are a different person than you (check out episode 3), how can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that?4. How are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside a classroom?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast! We are happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes, particularly the first 14 in our foundations series, because we continue to reference these fundamental relationship ideas and tools pretty often in our conversations. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and review wherever you listen. That definitely helps new people find us.So, today's episode is part of our Parenting series. The first episode in this series, episode 16, was about how we don't need to bring school home. Life is bigger than school, and a child is more than their grades. School can be school. In the next parenting episode, number 19, we talked about celebrating the child in front. That shift in perspective from trying to shape our child into our vision of the "perfect child" to discovering, supporting, and celebrating the unique child in front of us makes all the difference in cultivating strong and connected lifelong relationships with our kids.So, now we're going to bring both of these pieces together to explore and hopefully soon embrace not just school-based learning, but all kinds of learning. There are lots of ways of learning that don't look like a classroom, that don't require a hierarchical teacher-student dynamic. There are more informal environments like groups who gather around their interests in person or online. And people of any age can learn things on their own through watching videos online, reading books or websites, or hands on play and tinkering.Just because these activities don't look like a more formal classroom, doesn't mean the learning that's happening is any less real or valuable. Kids can learn things both in and out of the classroom. And if the classroom environment isn't a great match for their learning style, their learning accomplishments and environments outside the classroom can really help them feel accomplished and capable.ANNA: I think it's so helpful to think about learning outside of the school context. It's helpful for us as adults and then we can apply that to children, too. I think an a-ha moment can happen when we look at how we learn as adults. We tend to use a variety of methods, seeking out mentors, finding like-minded groups, reading books, researching, hands on, just digging in and doing it.We dive into our interests as they come up, and this could be deciding to keep chickens, building a shed, becoming a yoga instructor, an arborist. Each interest creates an opportunity for us to dive into that interest in a way that works for our brain.So, for me, I tend to like to read about something. I like to make some lists. I like to write down some ideas and then often talk to others who are doing the thing that I want to try. And then I want to start walking in that direction. I have other people in my family who are the dive in head first, start tinkering, touch it, do it, think about it. And then they want to seek some outside resources. And we're all just so different that way.But when we start to examine what that organic learning looks like for us as adults, not in a school environment, we can start to see that it's the same for kids. Then we can be more open to creating the conditions for them to pursue the things that they're interested in, in ways that suit who they are. It's back to being open and curious, right?There isn't just one way to learn, and that is especially true if one is thinking the only way to learn is from a teacher and a school. That can have its place. Great. And there can be room for all the varied ways in which humans learn things.PAM: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I think not only is it helpful to embrace the all kinds of learning piece, it's helpful to embrace all kinds of interests. So, if the thing they love to do right now isn't directly related to a school subject or a prestigious career, it's still valuable. It's really fascinating to watch a kid in action when they're doing something they really enjoy. They learn so much, and it's almost as if it's by osmosis. They're just soaking it all in. That sponge metaphor is always around. And if they love it, it connects with them as a person. It has meaning for them, even if they or we can't yet explain what that is, but for now, it's coloring in a new area of the map of who they are as a person.And the thing is, when we look back, often we can see the threads through their interests. So, how their love of wrestling with you on the couch became an interest in karate, which became an interest in parkour, which became an interest in stunt acting. But it can be really hard to see those threads in the moment, and even more so to try to predict them into the future, right?But with the freedom to follow their interests, there's a good chance we'll be able to see those threads looking back. There is just so much value in embracing the things our children are interested in, and not just in the act of learning about the interest, but also in the development of a strong and connected parent-child relationship.And if embracing your child's interests is something that you find challenging, I do invite you to check out Roya Dedeaux's book, Connect with Courage, practical Ways to Release Fear and Find Joy in the Places Your Children Take You. So, Roya is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and she has spent the bulk of her academic and professional career learning how recreation, play, leisure, hobbies, interests and passions, impact, and are impacted by mental health. She digs into why wholeheartedly supporting your children's pursuit of their interests and passions is so important, and she shares some excellent tools to help us navigate that when it just feels a little off. It can be a new way to look at things.ANNA: It is really fun to find ways to support our kids and ourselves in digging into our interest areas, because like you said, there's so often a trail of interest that leads to so much learning and then get synthesized into the next pursuits. Looking back, we can see how those trails led to the broader interest or even a passion area, but we don't often see it in the moment. So, trusting that something is popping up for our kids for a reason, a reason we may not see now, is part of trusting them as a person.We can use it as a way to connect and to get to know our kids. What do they love? What brings a sparkle to their eye? What things do they choose to do with their time? Especially for kids in school these days, they have very little free time. So, if they're using that time towards an interest, it's important to them. And us supporting and facilitating that helps them feel heard and valued. And we just learn more about what makes them tick. And I think we all really want to know our children at that deep level. And they definitely want to be seen and known by us. You and I have both worked with plenty of adults who weren't seen or understood as kids, and it really leaves a mark.PAM: Oh yes. Yes. It really does. And I feel like that can come when the parents' focus is fixed on bringing the school home such that their highest priorities are doing the homework, studying for the test, so that you can excel at school, and then rounding out their childhood with extracurricular activities. There is just so little time and space left for kids to discover who they are and how they tick.And I would also argue that a solid level of this kind of self-awareness is as valuable as knowing a general set of facts and skills as they move into adulthood. It's how we find our unique place in the world. Understanding how we tick, how we can care for ourselves, and how we want to engage with the people around us is such valuable knowledge to have at hand as we navigate our lives. So many of us need to figure all this stuff out as adults, precisely because our parents thought excelling at schoolwas the answer to everything.So, embracing all kinds of learning for our kids will go a long way to helping them navigate their lives with just a bit more grace and compassion for themselves and for others.ANNA: So much! I know for me, so I did well in school and it really wasn't a bad experience for me, but I still had a lot of unpacking to do as an adult to figure out what I wanted out of life, what things were interests of mine, not through the lens of cultural or the expectations of the adults around me. And while I know this is a parenting episode, I just want to say it goes a really long way to support the interests of our partners and our friends, too. Trusting that something is pulling them towards an interest, even if it doesn't make sense to us on the surface, it means so much for the people to be supported in the things that they want to do. It really is a critical part of every relationship.PAM: Oh, exactly. Because in the bigger sense, absolutely, it applies to all people. All kinds of environments and all kinds of interests can lead to all kinds of learning at any age. And when we embrace all kinds of learning, our world is richer and more fun. Life is more interesting.We're not just all trying to get on that same path. Building our unique selves and learning how we tick and the things that we love to do and how we love to do them. Our kids just learn so much about themselves that they will find useful their whole lives. That was my experience, too.So, whether or not you had a good school experience or a more negative one, either way, it took up time and it took us down, or was trying to take us down a path that was more generalized as society thought was successful. And I had to do a lot of picking apart for many years to try and figure out who I was beyond that.Because then all of a sudden you're dumped into the adult world and it's like, okay, go do these things. And oh my gosh, to figure out. Do I like to do that? What do I like to do? How do I like to do it? To recognize that life didn't need to be a big ball of stress all the time. That was a big part of it.Okay, so here are some questions to ponder this week. Number one, what are some ways you see your child learning outside the classroom? And what about outside the teacher-student dynamic? Because, so often, that dynamic can also be replicated in places, just because it's conventionally seen as the way to learn. But yeah, just bring a new lens to it. How is your child learning? Think about what do they love to do? Regardless of whether or not you like it or whatever, when they're doing it, when they're doing something that lights them up, look for the learning, see the learning that's happening.ANNA: Yeah, it's there.PAM: It's there. It's there. So, what does your child like to do at home? Now, let's take that in a little bit of a different direction. What interests are they expressing through that activity? So, we're going to look a little bit deeper at it. Can you think of more ways that you can bring that interest into their days.So, maybe it's a show or a game or whatever it is that they like, if you can start to see what it is about that thing that they like. Is it the story they love? Is it the music they love? Is it the challenge? Whatever it is. And then think about more ways that you might be able to bring things into your lives that also meet that underlying interest.ANNA: Yeah, I love that.PAM: Number three. Can you think of some ways to cultivate your child's burgeoning self-awareness? Recognizing that they are a different person than you? And if you want to talk about that more, check out episode three. How can you help them learn more about how they tick? Can you give them some more space to explore that instead of always popping in to tell them the right way to feel the right way to do something, all those pieces? A little bit more space so that they can start making some choices and you can both start learning about how they would approach things, how they tick, what feels good to them.And our last question, how are you feeling about embracing and valuing the many kinds of learning that happen outside of a classroom?ANNA: Yeah, I think I want to say about this one, because I think most of us, as adults, have been through this very long school system and we kind of were sold that that's the way to learn. So, I feel like it was a process for me to start recognizing there were different ways to learn and what that looks like. And so, I do think it's really important to just think about your own journey with that and how it's playing out for you as an adult and how you've branched off in different directions or have you? So, I think it's interesting.PAM: Yeah, I think it's so fascinating to see, not just put that on a pedestal as the one right way to learn, that it's cool and it has its place and they're learning things there. But also it's just as value to be valuable to be learning all sorts of other things that make up them as a whole person rather than just what the curriculum says.Anyway, I think this is going to be a lot of fun for people to start exploring. I'm excited that we shared this, and I thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!ANNA: Take care.

This week, we're sharing the first episode in our Parenting series, in which we'll explore our relationships with our children. We are excited to bring this new lens into our conversation! We decided to start this series with school, because it's a significant part of many children's lives. Yet, we don't need to bring school home. When it comes to our relationships with our children, life can be so much bigger than school. We can choose to put it in perspective as just one aspect of their lives.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.1. How does it feel to contemplate prioritizing your child, and your relationship with your child, over their school grades?2. What was your school experience growing up? Considering what we talked about in episode 3 about how people are different—and children are people too—how is your child different from you as a child? How is their school experience different from yours?3. What are some aspects of school that you might consider not enforcing at home? Where might you consider your child's needs more important than the school's expectations? What might that look like?4. Does your story of your child change when you don't include how they perform at school? If so, how? Which feels better? Which feels more true to the person your child is?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We're happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in the first 14 episodes and have really enjoyed how they're building on one another.If you've already been enjoying the podcast, we would love it if you could share it with someone in your life that you think might benefit from contemplating these ideas. It's super easy to share. Just send them to podcast.show/living joyfully. They can listen and read the show notes right there, or they can pick their favorite podcast player and it'll take them to the show. So, thank you so much for helping us spread the word.And this is our first episode in our parenting series in which we'll explore our relationships with our children. And I am really excited to bring this lens into our conversation. Now, we decided to start the conversation in this series with school because it's a significant part of most children's lives. Yet, spoiler alert, we don't need to bring school home.When it comes to our relationships with our children, life is so much bigger than school. That said, it can be hard to remember that in the thick of things while you're figuring out the day-to-day logistics of getting kids to and from school, of packing lunches, of finishing homework, of getting paperwork signed. But it's true.When we can take a moment to release the artificial urgency that's often generated by those schedules (and check out episode eight, There's Plenty of Time, if that is feeling hard) it can be invigorating to remember that life is so much more than that. Our relationships with our children are bigger than navigating their school attendance. School often looms large in our lives, but we can choose to put it in perspective. We can choose to give our relationships with our children priority.We have evenings and weekends at our disposal where we can choose to give priority to connecting with our kids, to engaging with them, and having fun together. Because when we pull up to that bigger picture, our relationships with our children will last for our lifetime, whereas the compulsory school years are only a dozen or so years of that. If we prioritize school over our relationships with them during childhood, though, what shape will our relationships with them be in the many decades still to come?ANNA: Yes. It's really so empowering to step back a bit and realize that we can absolutely prioritize the relationship with our child, even in the context of school. And that said, it does have a way of creeping into all the aspects of life. So, I think it really will be fun to step back a bit and be really intentional about the choices we're making and put it through that priority lens that we talked about way back in episode one. Keeping that lens handy as we navigate things that feel like have-tos helps us take ownership for our choices and act with clear intention.PAM: Absolutely. Yeah. Just going back to what our priorities are, what our whys are, that can just be so helpful to bring everything into context.So, now that we have put the school years themselves into a clearer perspective against the lifelong relationship that we're going to have with our children, let's look more closely at your child right now. Because your child is so much more than their grades. You know them in a much bigger sense than the school does, than their teacher does. You see them in different situations doing different things. You see the things they love to do, because you're with them when they have the chance to do them, and how they almost effortlessly learn when they're engaged in those activities.You see them grow and change over years, a perspective that their teachers just don't have. You can help your child feel seen and heard and valued for who they are as a whole person. School is just one aspect of their lives.And you can see things through your children's eyes. You can see all the learning they're doing beyond the school curriculum and their official grades. You can see them using what they're learning day-to-day in their conversations, in their activities, in their skill development. Those are more meaningful expressions of learning in the bigger picture than grades on tests. And yes, absolutely, grades have value when it comes to college applications and things. Yet the relentless judgment of grades as a reflection of the child's value as a person over those school years can be so harmful.ANNA: So harmful. There was a thread I read recently on Instagram where adults were talking about their memories of school and it was so intense to read as people talked about how those years felt to them. And it was interesting, because it was a mix of people. Some had excelled at school and had done really well, others had given up on it, but all of them were impacted in ways that have stuck with them and have required some unpacking over subsequent decades. And I was like, wow. It was hard to read.I think many of the negative aspects can be mitigated by connected relationships in the family, though, (and I think that's why we wanted to talk about it) by parents seeing the child as a whole honoring what they love, especially if it falls outside of what's valued at school.When I work with teens and families, they're coming to me because things are getting pretty dire, and so often, it boils down to the teen not feeling seen, heard, or understood. The pressure, the weight that's being carried, is massive for these kids. And validation and understanding around that works wonders.Many of the parents have bought fully into the importance of grades and performing in a way that prioritizes school performance above all else. But when you're faced with your child's mental health suffering, it casts it in a very different light. You start to see the bigger picture and realize their mental health is actually the most important thing to you and for them.And, here we go again. There's plenty of time. There's not one path to success and happiness. As much as school tells us that they have the right path and the answer to all the questions, they don't. It's not one size fits all, even for attending college and pursuing more traditional paths. More and more colleges are valuing different paths and students who are engaged in the world pursuing passions.But most of all, we want our teens to feel strong, confident, and connected. Focusing back on the relationship to really know your whole child, what they love, what weight they're carrying, what brings connection to the teen years that many people feel is impossible. It isn't. It's there for us if we move beyond acting as the school's enforcer and instead prioritize our relationship and partnering together.The teen years are pretty amazing, and while that can be surprising to some people, they really can be when you focus on the relationships and seeing the amazing person in front of you, hearing them, understanding them, partnering with them.PAM: Yes, yes, yes. I will say the teen years can definitely be amazing. So, as we start playing with our thoughts in this direction, another aspect that I want to touch on is that school is a choice. So, for example, you may not want to homeschool your children, yet remembering that it's a valid option reminds us that sending our kids to school is a choice, certainly throughout most of the world. And that can feel so empowering.Like, we're not doing anything differently, but the minute we remember this is a choice. The shift! The energetic shift that we can feel. We can choose how our family engages with the educational system in so many ways beyond just the compulsory attendance aspect.So, one thing to be aware of is that starting to think about school as a choice may well bring up our own school experiences, as you were mentioning, Anna, and we can carry the impact of our experiences for many years. So, maybe we felt very controlled, like we needed to submit to the system's authority. Maybe we acquiesced, maybe we fought it, and maybe those feelings all come flooding back as soon as we step into a school, even as a parent. We instinctively feel we need to do what the teacher tells us. But no. We're adults. It is definitely worth the effort to process our experiences growing up so we better understand them and better understand ourselves.So, while our school experiences can inform our choices, they needn't spill over into our current interactions. Recognizing our power doesn't mean that we need to be confrontational or argumentative with teachers or administrators. It does mean that we don't need to thoughtlessly take on whatever expectations they try to throw our way. We get to choose. We can prioritize our relationships with our children. We can prioritize them, as people, and that can make a world of difference in our family's lives over our family's lifetime.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. And I think reminding ourselves of the choices is always so important. And it's not just homeschooling, it's the myriad of options and talking with your child about what they want out of the experience, because ultimately it is their life, their education.So, working with them to understand what drives them, what lights them up, how to fan those fires, instead of extinguishing them. We'll have a much better chance of helping them live their best life than thinking of traditional kind of one-size-fits-all school as the only option. And I want to acknowledge that it is scary to question some of these things that we've been handed. We've all been told is the only way.And we're not saying throw it all out. You can if you want, but it's more a call to just take a closer look, to look at our own experience in school. How did it serve us? And looking at how it didn't. How is it serving our child now? How is it falling short? Again, it's about bringing intention to those choices and making those choices together so that there's ownership and consent.PAM: Absolutely. Back to working together as a team. We are supporting them and helping them. And when there are challenges, we're helping them figure out ways to move through that, as well. I can just feel them feeling seen and heard when we have these conversations instead of shutting down any challenges they might be facing.So, lastly, I want to mention, what does it look like when we decide to thoughtfully consider how we engage with the school system? Because, as we said, we don't need to bring school home wholesale. We can choose our language around school. School can be a way to learn new things, but it's not the only way. School has a certain set of things they teach, the curriculum, but that by no means covers all the interesting things there are in the world that we and our kids can learn.Kids can learn interesting things in and out of the classroom. We don't need to value school learning over life learning, because learning is everywhere. And we know our kids. We can see through their eyes, recognize the things they're learning throughout their days. We can choose not to bring the ethos of school into our home, not to be a teacher substitute that values the generalized curriculum over the individual child. When our focus is instead on our child, on our relationship with them, and on learning wherever and whenever it happens, it's amazing the fun and engagement and just pure joy that can bubble up through our days.ANNA: Yes. I mean, what we say and the energy we bring to it has such a huge impact. By valuing all types of learning, we're showing them that the world is rich with opportunities. If they don't fit into the mold of school perfectly, that's okay. We see their value and the value of the way they learn. And maybe that's more hands-on or deep dives, things that don't work quite as well in school. Then they can put those things into perspective.And even if our child is excelling in the school environment, it's helpful to check in about what they love and exposing them to all the different ways to live, because maybe they're good at doing what's needed for the environment, but when that's over, they're left looking around wondering what they love, how they want to spend their time.And I think it's important to mention that schools have a deficit focus that kind of goes unnoticed, but it's big. They're trying to bring everybody to a center line of knowledge, and unfortunately it doesn't allow us to develop our strengths as we struggle in areas that we don't enjoy or pick up easily.And while we may not be able to change that approach in school, you can make sure that there are ample opportunities and support for your child to explore their passions, whether it be art, writing, math, sport, dance, plants, frogs, whatever is is. Together, you can find ways to help them dig into their passion and know that you see and support them doing things that they love, because no matter what the passion is, no matter how tiny and niche there are people out there making money pursuing it, creating careers and a life around it.Just exposing kids to all the ways there are to live in the world, all the paths, will help them so much as they try to find their own unique path. No one is served by the idea that there's one right way, one path to success. There are countless 40-year-olds out there struggling because they bought that story and now realize it's a myth. But again, connecting with your child or teen now, really hearing them, helping them find their path, not only preserves your relationship, but gives them a strong foundation from which to build a life they don't have to start unpacking in their forties. PAM: Yes, yes, yes. And I want to bring that up once more, what you were talking there about a child who is doing well at school, who's excelling at school. Because if we just leave that as the one right path, because they are successful on that one right path, who knows? When they graduate, it's like, oh, is that the path that I want now when there are so many other possibilities?So, even if things seem to be going "well" and smoothly, it's still beautiful and connecting and wonderful to help them also explore and have fun outside of school, find their passions. Or maybe it's a passion that they've found, something they love that they're enjoying through school.We can bring more of that into their lives outside, getting to know them and helping them feel seen and heard by you, not just through the school experience, as well.So, as you contemplate how you see school weaving through your family's lives, here are some questions that we hope you will consider. The first one is, how does it feel as you contemplate prioritizing your child and your relationship with your child over their school grades? Again, it's just like, contemplate for yourself. It's okay to ask yourself any question. Any question is okay.Number two. What was your school experience growing up? Considering what we talked about in episode three about how people are different and children are people, too, how is your child different from you as a child? How is their school experience different from yours? And I think this is a great one, because sometimes, as parents, we can have like this image of a child in our mind and that's what we're comparing our child against.But if we can let that drift away, that image of what we thought a child should be or could be ... We wanted our child to like the same things that we like, so we could do them together. If you can let go of all those pieces and just look at the child in front of you and think about how they're different, whether it's in their personalities, the things that they like to do, like all those pieces. Just look at that for a while and think about the differences. That can help us see through their eyes more easily than just our lens of how we're looking at things.Question three or group of questions number three, what are some aspects of school that you might consider not enforcing at home? Where might you consider your child's needs more important than the school's expectations? And what might that look like? Just play with that for a bit.ANNA: Yeah. And I want to add the, what does it feel like? here, too, because I'm guessing as even you contemplate this question, you're putting yourself back in that role again of, "But I have to," and so then that's cool to notice, like, "Okay, I am bringing some of that into this exchange with my child and their relationship to school." And so, yeah, just contemplating those questions and how they feel and what it might look like, I think, would be really interesting.PAM: Yeah, that's the wonderful thing and why we keep talking about energy and how we're feeling, because often our brain doesn't yet maybe notice or want to think about the thing, but if we notice our body's tensing up, that's just a clue that there's something there. Or we notice thinking about something, oh, that feels lighter all of a sudden. I didn't know I wasn't breathing deeply! Wonderful, wonderful clues.Okay, so our last question. Does your story of your child change when you don't include how they perform at school? If so, how does it change? And which story feels better? Which feels more true to the person that your child is? I love that one. ANNA: Me, too. Because so often, that is the only way we interact with children is, what's your favorite subject? What'd you do at school today? And so, really, is that the story you're telling of your child?Is it steeped in this school or are you seeing these other aspects of them?PAM: I remember when I first noticed that the first question other adults in the world asked my kids when they met them was, what grade are you in? And that's fine. I'm in grade whatever. Yet, oh my gosh, the lens of school is ubiquitous. It is everywhere. And your child is more than their school attendance and you don't need to bring that home. It's absolutely an aspect of their lives, but it's not all their lives and it doesn't define who they are as a whole.ANNA: And I guarantee you that they want to be seen as more than that. Even if they love school, they want to be seen as more than that. And so, that will just be really fun to check in and see.PAM: Yes. I love that. Thank you so much for listening everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye!ANNA: Bye-bye. Take care.

This week on the podcast, we're talking about baby steps. So often, when we're faced with a challenge or making a choice, we don't need to have the full picture or the final answer in order to move forward. By taking a baby step in the direction that makes sense to us or to our loved ones, we can learn more about the situation and see how it feels. One baby step can lead naturally to the next. As we keep communicating and checking in, we can find a path forward that works for everyone.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Does it feel like many of the day to day choices you're making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven't listened to episode 8 yet about Anna's mantra, “there's plenty of time,” I highly recommend it.Thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (often by ourselves!) to make a decision quickly yet the better choice wasn't immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped? Feel free to get creative!Is there a choice or a goal you're considering right now that feels big? You don't need to know exactly how you'd get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and see what happens?Are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner? Your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are happy you're here exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas in these first dozen episodes and have really enjoyed how they are building on one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, please share it with the people in your life that you think would benefit from contemplating these ideas. It's super easy to share. Just send them to pod.link/livingjoyfully. From there, they can pick their favorite podcast player and it will take them right to the show in that app. Thanks so much for helping us spread the word.And so, this week, we are going to talk about the idea of baby steps. When we're trying to make a choice, so often, we don't need to make the big, ultimate decision right now. This builds on the idea that there's plenty of time, which we talked about a few weeks ago. These are the threads that are moving through them all.So, maybe we're not yet sure whether we want to pursue the end goal that we're considering. When we find ourselves here, what's often missing is more information or experience. So, taking the next baby step in that direction can give us more information to help us make that bigger picture decision. Sometimes we need to take quite a few baby steps before we get a keen sense of what we ultimately want to do.Or, maybe our partner or child wants to do something that stretches our comfort zone. Chances are, we don't need to make a yes/no choice immediately. Staying open and curious, which we talked about last week, can help us take the next baby step in that direction and just learn more about what it entails and how it feels. It can also give us a better understanding of why they're wanting to go in that direction and some experience that can help us better explain our perspective. We're learning more about them and we're learning more about ourselves.That deeper level of self-awareness and having a better grasp of the language around their goal, now we can have more meaningful and connected conversations with them. There's just so much we can learn when we try just that next baby step, isn't there?ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. And it really is the natural extension of last week's discussion on being open and curious. When our partner or child brings us something they want to do, sometimes if we don't see the whole path clearly, we'll just shut it down. At the first thought of resistance, we're just like, "No, that doesn't sound doable." But if instead we can ask some questions and start walking in that direction, we learn so much more about each other and also about the task at hand. What does it really mean? What is it really going to entail?We don't have to commit to that end goal, like you're saying, right away. Taking that first step helps us learn more and keeps us connected.PAM: Yeah. Yeah. So, I have a story to share about taking baby steps and stretching my comfort zone, that, looking back, I do remember fondly.It's an example of how we don't need to make all or nothing decisions immediately, and how choosing the next baby step does not mean that you've committed to a big yes right now.So, this happened years ago now, in the aftermath of a big January snowstorm. My daughter was maybe 13 or 14 and we had tickets to see a concert in the city about an hour away. So, that morning, the snow was falling heavily and I was sure they'd cancel the show. People were being told to stay home if possible. I was looking forward to settling in and hanging out around the fire in our wood stove.My daughter had been looking forward to the show and was understandably disappointed. I told her that I was pretty sure they'd reschedule the show. So, she wouldn't miss it. It would just be postponed. She kept checking the website. And by early afternoon, they announced that the show was going to go on.Obviously, she wanted to go and I wanted to stay home. I imagined all the hurdles in our way. And it seemed like way too much work, yet I could see her immense disappointment and I chose to shift to being open and curious about the possibility.And though I couldn't yet muster a, "Yes, let's go!" I did manage to take a baby step to meet her with a maybe. Though the snow had now stopped falling, I explained the obstacles I saw and that I was willing to try the next baby step and see how it looked. If it looked okay, we'd try the next baby step and the next, and she agreed.So, step one was, clean off the car and shovel enough of the driveway to get out by our planned departure time. And we did it, even after the snow plow went by and created another curb of snow at the end of the driveway that we had to dig through again.So, step two, is our local rural road plowed and safely drivable? Once we could peek out and see the road, that was a yes, too. Step three was pack the car with extra hats and mitts and snacks in case we get stuck along the way. Done.By the time we pulled out of the driveway, it felt like we were on quite the adventure. I was rather surprised we'd actually made it this far, but there was no point that said, "Stop," so we kept going. Step four, as we slowly drove into the city, I reminded her that if the road or the traffic got bad, we would turn back. Even in her excitement, she was fine with that. It turned out that though the roads were snow-covered, they had been plowed, so it wasn't deep, and traffic was very light. Slowly but surely, we made our way into the city.Step five, we pulled into the venue parking lot. We were both so surprised to find ourselves there. It was almost surreal. I can still remember the feeling. So white and quiet outside. And inside, the concert turned out to be a very intimate show. The band thanked those who showed up and really connected with the audience as they played. It ended up being a pretty magical night.I remember that day vividly because it was a great reminder that, when I'm feeling overwhelmed, when I'm feeling like I need to make a big yes/no choice, taking baby steps and looking around after each one to see what's up and see how I'm feeling can be a really helpful way for me to move through it.I could acknowledge both my discomfort and her enthusiasm, holding both of them gently in my hands. And baby step by baby step, explore whether we could find a path forward that worked for both of us.And that said, sometimes we don't have the capacity for that, and that's okay. Sometimes we start out and come to an impasse. That's okay, too. But sometimes we find a path of baby steps that works out. And over the years, that happened way more often than I expected. That inspired me each time just to give it a shot.ANNA: Just to give it a shot! Oh my gosh. I love that story. And I think what I want to highlight is that by being open to those next steps and communicating along the way, you stayed on the same side.You were a team. You were solving it together. You were traveling those next steps together. And you could have shut it down with a no saying, it's just too snowy, which really wouldn't have been that unreasonable of a reaction. But most likely, it would've led to some kind of rupture, even beyond the disappointment. Maybe even a slammed door or just some kind of upset. But instead, you dug into your concerns. You were honest about them, talked about them, and slowly started to address them together, knowing that at any time you could change your mind.And what she saw was that you were trying, and again, that you were working together. And that is just such a different energy than making top-down decisions. Because had it not worked out, she would've seen the path of why it didn't work out. The road's impassable. We can't get the driveway dug out. The car's not starting. Whatever the real thing would've been, as opposed to you inside by the fire making that choice for her.I think we can do this with our partners, too. They'll have an idea and instead of examining where our reactions are coming from, we just react and we shut it down and it's really disconnecting. And interestingly, we can do this whether the idea has anything to do with us or not. It's really easy to fall into that trap of pointing out all the problems. Instead, we can listen, ask questions, celebrate the excitement that the person has for the idea. That's what keeps us connected and helps us find the next steps that make sense.So, it's back to being open and curious. I want to cultivate that mindset when someone comes to me with an idea, because from that place, we can figure out any resistance and start to address it with those next baby steps. And the key with this process is to remain connected and curious. I can be honest about what's coming up for me without judging or shutting down what's happening for them and where they want to go.I think part of it is releasing any sense of urgency, which we talk about a lot. I know sometimes I can feel pressured when somebody comes to me with a request, but what I've learned is that, if I answer from that place, I most likely will say no or something that disconnects us. It's okay to ask for some time to think and gather your thoughts and consider things. And that's back to, are you an internal or external processor? Taking time to think about what's causing the resistance helps you to be able to communicate that with your partner and child.And honestly, the first step is often just listening, like really listening. What's behind the request? What are they excited about? How do they see it playing out? Then perhaps the next step is really still information gathering. There's a lot you can do that's pretty low stakes, but it shows that you're open to understanding and trying to find a path forward, and it just makes all the difference in a relationship.PAM: Yes, as an internal processor, I have said to my kids over the years and they learned to work with, "If you need an answer right now, it's gonna be a no. But if you give me a few minutes to just take it in and figure out how it feels and what it looks like," I just need to process it and it's not something I can do aloud. As an internal processor, I just need to do it in my head. And do the different paths. Okay, so this is the change, this is what that change looks like over the rest of the day or week, depending on what it is. And then I'm like, "Oh yeah, that's all good." And then I go back and say, yes, or I actually discover what the hiccup is, and then I can go and say, "Oh, but look, that impacts this for me. How can we address that?"But if I need to answer right away, I would say no. And most people are not like, "I'll take the no right away, please." So, seeing through their eyes is just so very helpful, because that's what each baby step can help us with. So, even if I don't get to a place where I share their level of excitement about the thing, I can definitely often get to a place where I can appreciate their excitement. And want it for them. That makes all the difference in the world for me.ANNA: So much. And I think just what you were just talking about it, it's important to acknowledge that there are differences that we can learn about in each other. And we talked a bit about that in episode three, but I think this is another potential difference that can trip up relationships.So, you're going to have the people who like to leap first, ask questions later, and then you're going to have people who really need to feel out every step, to confirm that there's some firm footing here before I go any further. And understanding where you lie on that continuum will help you communicate with your partner.So, if you're a leap-first person and you're partnered with a firm-footing-only person, you can take that into consideration, just like your kids were able to do, and see that their questions are not about discounting your idea at all but that they're trying to make the idea work for them.So remember, often our work is to not take things personally, but to see that our partner's actions or behaviors are trying to meet a need. And so, then we're learning about one another and we're learning about how to approach these conversations. So, even when you have two different styles, you can find ways to come together honoring each other. That starts with setting any defensiveness aside and trusting that the two of you will keep working to find a path forward that feels good.You may find some unique combinations of leaping and planning or leaning on each other's strengths to get the best outcome, because so often in these situations, it's really a bit of both, right? Leaps of faith and some pre-planning that get us there. And sometimes there's certain situations that are better served by one or the other, but knowing each of your strengths puts you in the best position to get where you want to go together and helping one another. Knowing that there are options and keeping the lines of communication open helps us remain connected even if we're navigating difficult decisions or stretching our comfort zones.PAM: Yes. Our differing personalities are such a great thing to consider when we're talking about goals, paths, and what that next step might be. It makes all the difference. And as you were sharing there, what comes to mind for me is just the experience. Each time we move through it, we're building trust with the other person. Trust that I will consider the kind of person you are. What feels good to you? What doesn't feel good to you? I'm not gonna try and railroad my answer. But I'm not going to just accept your answer either and be martyrly about it, because that's going to lead to burnout. That's going to lead to overwhelm, all sorts of places. And sometimes that happens, but then there's work to move through that and to get back to connection from there.So, the more I can bring myself and be open and curious about other people, each time that happens, we build a little bit more trust that this process is working for us, no matter what path we ended up on. That, to me, was always one of the most fun things. Yes, there was a hard piece about the uncertainty, like going into the conversation, not knowing where we'd go, but oh my gosh, the places that we ended up so often were way more interesting and fun than the original path that I thought of.ANNA: That's so true, but that's because we were open and created this environment where they could feel open to ask and respect and understand, and all of those pieces that weave together to create these strong, connected relationships that we're talking about every week.PAM: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore how taking baby steps can make choices and decisions easier. It's a skill that you can definitely get better at through experience.So, number one, does it feel like many of the day to day choices you're making are urgent? Are they really? If you haven't listened to episode eight yet about Anna's mantra, There's Plenty of Time, I highly recommend you start there.Question two, thinking back, can you remember a time when you felt pressured (and that can be pressure we're putting on ourselves) to make a decision quickly, yet the better choice wasn't immediately clear? Can you think of a series of baby steps that might have helped you along the way? And feel free to get creative. It can feel like, oh, that's just more work. But, oh my gosh, the journey is the experience.ANNA: Exactly. And the creativity is all a part of it and what makes it a little bit lighter, not so much weight, as we can be creative together.PAM: Yeah. All right. Question three. Is there a choice or a goal you're considering right now that feels big to you? You don't need to know exactly how you would get there, but can you see a baby step in that direction? Can you do that and just see what happens?And lastly, are you more of a leap-first person or a firm-footing person? What about your partner, your children? How can understanding that help you communicate with them about future decisions?All right. Thank you so, so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye! Have a great day!

Open and curious is a helpful mindset shift for navigating relationships and challenges. In this week's episode, we dive into Pam's mantra and some of the many ways that it has proven to be so valuable in our lives. Being open and curious takes us back to beginner's mind and allows us to see possibilities and question limiting beliefs that no longer serve us. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.How does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens? Try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind. What felt different? Think about something in your life that you're feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist? Next time you're judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as “bad,” play with the question “Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?” TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks so much for joining us as we explore relationships, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.If you're new to the podcast, we encourage you to go back and listen to the earlier episodes. We started with some foundational relationship ideas and have really enjoyed how they've been building upon one another. And if you've already been enjoying the podcast, we'd love it if you could leave a rating and a review. That definitely helps new people find us.In today's episode, we're gonna talk about being open and curious. This is something you will hear us say a lot. I first heard about it from Pam and I find myself saying it daily at this point. When you think about the opposite, it's being closed and disinterested, so it's pretty easy to see why we both love it.I don't want to move through the world feeling closed and disinterested, and it definitely doesn't help us solve problems or to connect with the people around us.Being open and curious serves us in our relationships on a lot of different levels. When we're open and curious about our partner, we want to understand them, what's important to them, why they see things the way they do. We want to set aside any judgment and really lean into connecting with the person in front of us.When I find myself not understanding something they did or said, I can remind myself to be open and curious about it, to not jump to conclusions, to not write a story, like we were talking about last week.That gives us the best chance to avoid a misunderstanding. And part of being curious is asking questions and listening.PAM: Yeah. I love this so much. I have found open and curious to be such a helpful lens to bring to my relationships. For me, it's a quick way to get to beginner's mind, which is a place where I don't feel like I have to know the answers, and I'm just curious to learn more. I often feel a sense of wonder and a childlike energy when I can get there. And it's not childish. Childlike. There's a big distinction.So, when I'm open and curious, I'm attentive and I'm interested in hearing new ideas and new perspectives. I want to learn how the other person is seeing things. I want to learn what they're interested in and why it lights them up. And, of course, that doesn't mean forgetting about who I am.To me, beginner's mind is about understanding that the world is richer than just my story. My story, the one I tell about myself, is definitely a vibrant thread, but it also weaves alongside the stories of the other important people in my life. And it reminds me that their story is theirs to tell and I want to listen. I want to know them, not my version of them.And to take that metaphor just one step deeper, being open and curious reminds me to explore the tapestry of my life, which includes the people I love and care about, not just the thread of my story, thinking it's the one right way to move through the world. It's a tapestry of unique people and stories that weave together to create the bigger picture of my life, which leads us nicely into the next aspect that we wanted to talk about, doesn't it?ANNA: It does. Because being open and curious also really serves us when there's a conflict. So often, when we find ourselves in a conflict, we have in our mind the right answer, how this needs to resolve for me to be satisfied. And unfortunately, It just rarely works out the way we plan.If we come into the conflict pushing our agenda as the only way, we put the other person on the defensive and we end up spending a lot of time defending ideas back and forth, really rarely hearing the other person's perspective at all. And if we come into the disagreement with this open, curious mindset that we're talking about, we aren't abandoning our ideas, like you said, we're just remaining open to hearing the other person's perspective.That energy is felt by the other person, and then they are so much more likely to join us on the journey to understand and figure out options. We're going to be committed to finding something that works. We're going to get there faster by remaining open and not tunneling in on our one perspective or idea or what the fix should be.PAM: I know, for me, when I first heard the advice years ago to listen to my partner, it made so much sense. So, when we were navigating a conflict, I listened. But eventually I realized I was still holding tightly to my right answer, and my listening was mostly focused on picking up the pieces that aligned with my solution, right? Everything else just kind of flew by. I truly wasn't hearing their perspective. I wasn't hearing their story. I was only taking in what I thought I could use to support my agenda or my solution, that tunnel vision that you mentioned.And unsurprisingly, we often ended up at an impasse that way. Each person trying their best to defend and convince the other that their interpretation of the situation and their proposed solution is a right one. Our conversations were energetically draining and steeped in a power dynamic that definitely strained our relationship.So, once I came to recognize what was happening, I chose to instead try to bring an open and curious mindset with me into our conversations. How are they seeing the situation? What parts of it feel important to them? What parts feel especially challenging to them? Does that make sense alongside what I know about them as a person, all the things we talked about way back in episode three that make them the unique person they are, their personality, their strengths, their weaknesses, sensitivities, all those pieces?And in these more open conversations, with defensiveness down and curiosity up, there was space for me to share my thoughts and perspectives, not with the energy that this was the solution, but as more information to consider. And without that grasping and no longer feeling like the only choices we have are their initial solution or mine, we could often find a third or a fourth or a fifth path forward right through the situation that took each of our perspectives and needs into consideration.So, it turns out that open and curious mindset not only gave me the space to learn more about what was going on, it also gave me more space to get creative in finding a solution that worked for everyone involved.The process is like a muscle that gets stronger with practice. With each experience, where shifting to being open and curious helped us creatively navigate a challenge or a conflict, it became a bit easier to shift the next time, and then the next. Over time, I found myself shifting more quickly from defending myself to trusting that we could find a way through together. Being open and curious just helps me in so many ways, in so many situations with so many people.ANNA: Oh my gosh, yes. I see it in so many different ways and I feel like it's one of those tools we can cultivate that gives us something to do instead of taking things personally when we're in a conflict. And that is so key when we want to navigate those conflicts with more ease and connection.And this idea is also really important if we find ourselves stuck or with some limiting beliefs. Often this involves outside voices or some cultural constructs that maybe aren't serving us. And if we bring that open and curious mindset to it, we can start asking questions. Where are these ideas coming from? Are they serving me? Who would I be without them? What other options can I find?But we can only get there if we open up our minds beyond the parameters that are being applied to us by forces that don't know who we are or what's important to us. This allows us to start questioning these societal constructs. So, if I'm in a job that I don't love, why am I still here? What's stopping me from leaving? What would life look like if I made a different choice? How would that feel?And also things we view as "have tos". We talked about this a few episodes ago as well. We can start to question those have tos. And being open and curious allows that exploration to move us away from things that aren't serving us, the things we've just accepted even if we don't like the way they feel. "Relationships should be this," you know, "School looks like this," "Being successful looks like that."All these ideas are worth questioning, especially if we're wanting to live our best life, a life where we can truly thrive.PAM: Yeah. When we realize that we can question everything, that we can be open and curious about all the possibilities, I swear it just feels like the whole world opens up. I feel so much lighter. And it's fun that you mentioned that. One of my favorite thought experiments is to play with the opposite perspective to see how it feels, particularly when I'm feeling stuck or frustrated.So, say the story I'm telling myself is, I hate that my kid wants to play video games all the time. In my head, it's fascinating to explore the question, "Well, what if I was a person that loved that my child is excited to play video games all the time?" So, being open and curious means letting the likely immediate reaction of listing all the reasons I think that's a silly perspective just float on pass, because that's definitely not being open and curious, and then just noticing what comes up next. How would I feel in those circumstances when I saw my child happily playing?Well, I think I'd be happy too, because I like this. I'd probably have a big smile on my face.And then I was like, okay, so then what would I do? If this was something I loved and I was excited about, I'd probably join them, sitting with them, and watching them play. I'd listen attentively to what they shared. And they'd probably be really happy that I'm showing an interest in something that they really enjoy. I'd cheer with them when they beat the boss or finished the level or solved a vexing puzzle, and we'd celebrate together.So, I have that vision in my head, and then maybe it would occur to me to ask myself, so what's wrong with that? It sounds like I'd be seeing their game playing through their eyes, which definitely helps me better understand who they are. And it sounds like a very connecting thing to do, which is something that I want to do. So, when I play with that thought experiment, so often I discover that things aren't as bad as I imagined them to be on the other side. And I can ask myself, why was I holding on so tightly to my fear and judgment of the thing?It's just a great tool for me when I'm feeling stuck around what often turns out to be a conventional message that I've absorbed, that once I take some time to play with it and dig a bit deeper into it, I discover it really doesn't make so much sense to me in my life in this moment.ANNA: Exactly. And I think it's so interesting that we can find ourselves defending and enforcing ideas because we think we're supposed to, yet, when we choose to examine them, we find they don't serve us or our relationships at all. And that open and curious mindset allows us to tune into ourselves and evaluate ideas related to who we are and how we want to move through the world.Another time I use this idea a lot is when something bad happens, especially something that I might initially label as bad. Instead I can say, hmm, I wonder what's going to happen here. I wonder what's coming next. I don't have to have all the answers. I don't know all the things.So, being curious allows me to look for new directions around things that might first be considered roadblocks. I don't want to be shut down by what happens to me and around me. And the fastest way for me to avoid a spiral is to start asking questions and look at the issue with a wider lens, not jump into the judgment about it.PAM: Yeah, that makes such a big difference. When you can just know that there are other possibilities. We talked about that tunnel vision, and we can especially feel that when something is going wrong or bad around us and we can get really fixated and pulled into that. But when we can take a step back to start asking questions around it and just looking a little bit bigger picture, that really keeps the possibilities bubbling.ANNA: Right, and I think it's related to the things we've talked about with time. There's plenty of time. Because that's the other thing. You feel the expansiveness of that open curious mindset. So, when something happens, instead of locking in and the judgment, you can feel that expansiveness of, hey, I can take a few minutes to kind of look at this from the wider perspective. So, I like those inner things that we can find energy shifts, because that's what can help us move through any of these challenges, bumps, conflicts, whatever, with a little bit more ease.PAM: Exactly. The energy is the whole thing, because the energy is, is ours, but it's also the energy that we're bringing to our interactions with everybody around us. It's so helpful.ANNA: So, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea of being open and curious this week. How does it feel to think about being open and curious about the people in your life? What do you discover through that lens?Number two, try being open and curious while navigating a conflict this week, rather than jumping right to the solution you have in mind, and then look at what felt different. How did that change how that conflict played out?Think about something in your life that you're feeling stuck around. What bubbles up when you approach it with openness and curiosity? What other possibilities exist that maybe you didn't see at first?And next time you're judging something your partner or child is choosing to do as bad, play with that question. Who would I be without this perspective? What would I do instead? How would that feel?So, hopefully you'll take some time to think about those questions and about what an open and curious mindset could bring to your life. And we really appreciate you listening and being here with us today, and we will see you next time.PAM: Yes! Bye.

Let's dive into black and white thinking. While it's common to see things through the lens of right and wrong or good and bad and to look for someone or something to blame, these polarizing paradigms are damaging to relationships. Real relationships and real life are more nuanced. They exist in the gray area. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.How does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you? Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand?How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don't see it the same way? Have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love?How would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and dig into the gray with the people in your life?TRANSCRIPTANNA: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. Thanks for tuning in to explore relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.So, in today's episode, we're going to talk about moving beyond polarizing paradigms. Right/wrong, good/bad, blame/fault. These are all paradigms and it's pretty interesting when you start exploring if they are serving us or hindering us in our relationships with others.So, I love teasing apart the ideas of right and wrong, because on the surface, it seems like a simple and very useful concept. And I think it can be when it's applied to our own personal journey. What feels right to me? What doesn't feel right? How do I want to act in the world? Who is the person I want to be in the world?It's when we start to try to impose our ideas of right or wrong or act as if there's one definition, one definitive definition, that it really just stops learning. Standing staunchly in what could feel like a very justifiable position stops learning. Instead, we can ask, why does someone have a certain belief or act in a certain way? Why do some people agree with it and others don't? How can we move beyond that thought to start looking at the people involved?And even more importantly, looking at the needs behind the behavior. What's driving the behavior? What's driving the action? And as we lean into that, we learn more about the person and perhaps gain new insights into the whole situation, insights we wouldn't have seen had we stayed stuck in our position of there's one right way.And so, when we just look at behavior and judge it as right and wrong, we're losing this chance to connect with the person in front of us, be that person, our child, a friend, our partner. We're losing our chance to understand their motivation and the need behind it. And it's in that place of refraining from judgment that we can choose connection and understanding. If the behavior is impacting us, I guarantee you the fastest way to stop it while still remaining connected is to address that underlying need. Because once the need is addressed, the offending behavior no longer serves a purpose and it just falls away.PAM: Yes. Judging another person's behavior is so often disconnecting, and that's precisely because it's a surface level perspective. Digging in to find the underlying need they are trying to address with that behavior hits so many more connecting notes between us.We learn more about them. They feel more seen and heard. The challenging behavior fades. And there's much less need for any relationship repair at the end of it all.And another situation where the idea of right and wrong can cause upset in relationships is in how someone else chooses to do something. So, beyond behavior, is there really a right way to pack the dishwasher?ANNA: Maybe!PAM: Or to fold clothes or to play with a toy? Surely there are ways that are right for us. We absolutely have our preferences, but we can take that too far when we expect others to do things the same way that we do. It's like when we expand "right for us" to mean "right period."Of course, sometimes those other ways just kind of grate on us, like utensils the wrong way up in the dishwasher. I have found it helpful in those moments to remind myself that the way they are doing it probably feels just as right to them as my way feels to me. That is always such a good reminder. I still use it all the time, just as a way to process.And I also sometimes ask myself, well, if I believe that my way really is the best way, am I willing then to be the one who does the task? Or might I instead choose to be just grateful that someone else has done it? Either of those choices is more connecting in a relationship than trying to control another person's actions. The relationship is my lens. It's my priority. I'm also going to bring those considerations into my self-talk, into what I'm thinking about the situation or the rub that's happening.ANNA: And then it boils down to choices, too. Am I going to choose this dishwasher being loaded this way versus this relationship? Am I going to put that above? And so, I think it's just really interesting to play with those ideas and really walk yourself through it, versus when we get stuck in that, "No, this is the way," we have this shrapnel that has injured lots of people around us from that.But it's kind of the same, too, with the ideas of good and bad. So, again, that boils down to a judgment, often a snap judgment, of how something or someone fits into our ideas of how things should be. But we're talking about humans here. As we've discussed before, humans are complex. They are different. And they absolutely resist fitting neatly into boxes.So, if we go back to behavior and we label it as good or bad, we again lose sight of the need that they're trying to meet. And we do it a lot with children. "You're a good boy if you're doing this thing I want you to do, and a bad boy if not." So, you're a good boy if you're sitting still and being quiet and a bad boy if you're fidgeting and making noise. But what if your whole body is telling you to move? What if you've been sitting for hours and you just can't do it anymore?If instead we look at the need, we don't have to judge the person. We can help them figure out how to meet the need or to see if the environment is not the best place for them right now. And what that does is develop a person who doesn't see themselves as good or bad based on outside opinions, but a person who can listen to their body, state their needs, and find solutions that work in the environments that they're in.PAM: Yeah. And for me, this, this whole area, it was a realization that people really are different, as we talked about in episode three, and I love that it keeps coming up in most episodes. That realization helped me ease up on judging other people through my personal lens of good and bad. I could see the choices that felt good to me didn't necessarily feel good to others. And if I wanted to understand their perspective, I needed to learn more about what was going on.And when I have relationships as my priority, I really do want to understand them better. These are my loved ones. These are the people I choose to have in my life. I really do want to understand them better. And I want to help them process through whatever is feeling off for them, finding solutions that feel good to them.Again, in the context of those deeper connected relationships, the framework of good and bad is surface level and limiting. The real world is so much richer and messier all at the same time.ANNA: So, much richer, so much messier. And like you said, that's where the learning is, though. Sticking to cut-and-dry, one-right-way answers just shuts down learning and connection.Another thing we do is we tend to judge situations as good or bad. And so, I'm just going to pop in a quick paraphrase of the Taoist farmer story who says that maybe might be a more useful idea? And so, to paraphrase, the farmer's son lets out their one horse. The village says, "What bad luck!" "Maybe," says the farmer. The horse returns with the herd of other horses. "What good luck!" they say. "Maybe," says the farmer. The son breaks his leg working with one of the new horses. "What bad luck," they say again. "Maybe," says the farmer. The army comes to the neighborhood to conscript the young men. His son isn't taken because of the broken leg.So, life is filled with events. If we spend our time judging each one as it comes along, we take ourselves out of the moment. We don't know how things will unfold, so let's just face what's in front of us without judgment. That keeps fear out of the equation. It keeps us squarely in the moment, and that is the only thing that we have control over anyway.PAM: I love that point. When we're judging all the things that are happening around us, that thinking takes us into our heads and it takes us out of the moment. And the other piece is, we lose our sense of flow, not literally flow moment to moment per se. But as the story tells us, flow over time. Things in the world are connected. That is another thing that culturally, we stumble around. We're very much, "Here's the thing in front of me today, going to do it efficiently, productively, it's done, good, bad, however," and then just move on to the next thing.But there is a thread that connects so many moments over time and it's so interesting just to keep that lens. It helps us realize we don't need to judge all the things, because maybe it might be helpful along the way.ANNA: And for me, that thread is really a trust in the unfolding, that I may not see it all now, but there's a thread and it's unfolding and I don't want to be judging each thing as good or bad, because I feel like it derails. And I just want to trust in that unfolding.I think it's important to realize that when we're judging other people or their actions, we're missing this opportunity for deeper understanding. And what usually ends up being a pretty thinly-veiled ploy for control, often, when we're judging. I think it's important to look at that for a minute, because when we're judging someone's action, what is our goal? What do we want to happen? Do we think it will help our relationship? Do we think it'll change what they're doing? Maybe. But how will that feel?And so, then to flip it around, how does it feel when someone's judging us? Does it make us feel closer to that person? Does it make us want to change our behavior? Most likely, it makes us want to pull away or double down, even if it might not serve us. Judgment really has no place in our relationships. In its place, though, we can use inquiry. We can have this genuine openness and desire to understand, because like you said, these are our most important relationships. I want to understand them. I want to know what makes them tick. I want them to feel good about how we're moving forward.That keeps us connected as we learn more about each other. And it also allows a place where our concerns or ideas can be met with curiosity and not defensiveness on both sides, because that's the environment that we're cultivating.PAM: Yes. Because judgment really is all about us, right? ANNA: Oh yeah.PAM: It is about how we're seeing, what we want to happen. But a connected and loving relationship is about both people. I also love and often use the thought experiment of flipping things around to see how I would feel if I was on the receiving end of things, because it doesn't feel good to be judged. And I notice that my defensiveness rises, leaving me with little space to consider changing things up and learning something new. "No, I'm going to defend this. I'm going to hold on maybe even longer than I would normally if I wasn't feeling judged."I am much more apt to be open and curious when someone approaches me with information without that side dish of judgment. As you mentioned, that just feels so much less controlling. It feels like we're on the same team. We're going to try and figure this out. You just brought me some new information. And you gave me this space to like hear it, bring it in, and see if it makes sense to me. It's not controlling anymore.ANNA: Right. Exactly. Now you're open, you're curious, you're learning, you're both learning, and how different is that? You can learn from each other. I think when we're feeling judged, it really puts up a wall to what they're saying. What they're saying might be helpful, but not when it's delivered with that side dish of judgment. We're not even going to hear it.And so, again, these are our most important people. We want to stay connected. So, yeah, just so important to keep in mind.Okay. So, the blame/fault matrix is another paradigm that is so common in our culture. It's really easy and at times comforting to lay that blame on someone else. If you didn't do this, think like that, act like this, X wouldn't have happened. The problem is, when we focus on blame, we never look at our role and we never dig deeper into the whole situation. We're never getting to that underlying need on either of our parts.And blaming is just a surefire way to create a rupture in a relationship. No one wants the finger pointed at them. It makes us feel that this love that we have is conditional. If you don't way behave the way I think is good or right, I'm going to blame you for things that have happened. I'm going to withdraw my love potentially. And again, it's just that judgment and blame. It just creates craters in relationships. I believe ruptures can be healed and that a repair is super important, but we don't need to just keep creating them. Let's just try not to keep creating them!PAM: Absolutely. That is an important part of a relationship, the repair, because things aren't always going to go smoothly, but we don't need to keep setting ourselves up for these challenges. It's just so fascinating to think about how urgently people look around to find someone to blame when something goes awry.We all want to. "It's not my fault. It's not my fault. No, no, no." And how often once we find someone to blame, that's the end of it. We want to move on. It's not really surprising then when it keeps happening over and over, because we're not really learning anything that we can bring forward with us for the next time.Instead, when we approach the situation with the energy that we're all on the same team, we can empathize with our partner or our child or friend about the upset. Because chances are, they aren't particularly happy about it either. We can listen to them, support them as they process things, and brainstorm with them about different things they might try next time. So, just think about how you'd like others to help and support you when something you do goes sideways. And just try that. How would it feel for me if someone did this? Well, let me try doing that for someone else when things go sideways with something they've done or said.ANNA: Oh my gosh. We all just want to be held in those times when things go sideways. We just want to be understood at least, or have somebody not pointing the finger at us, because we know what we've done half the time. You know what I mean? We don't need that outside judgment. We really just need somebody that's like, "Hey, where do you want to go from here? What can we do next? How can we fix this? What can we do?"And so, it's just such a different energy to bring and I think especially because we're talking about our most important relationships, it's just worth that work to find that kindness and compassion. So, yeah, so important.So, for me, all the things that we've talked about today and lots more out there, fall into the idea of black and white thinking and life and for sure relationships are lived in the gray and I really feel like so much suffering and so many relationship issues boil down to this black and white, right and wrong thinking. There's not one right way to do or be. There just isn't.We make the choices we make in each moment based upon all kinds of factors, including very changeable things like how much sleep have I had, or food. Understanding the context of the moments, the needs of the individuals involved, and cultivating that open and curious mindset allows us to learn and to grow. We can develop deeper relationships, because they're based on the understanding that we're doing the best we can in each moment, and that our behaviors are trying to meet a need.So, when judgment is set aside, we can look at all the factors that make up the context and keep connection at the forefront. We can talk about our needs and the impact something is having on us with an eye to understanding one another and to work together to find solutions that feel good to us both. So, I decided to look up antonyms of "polarizing" when we were naming this episode and their unification, connection, and attachment. And I thought, oh yeah, that really sums it up, why I choose to let go of paradigms that don't serve me in my relationships, why I choose to remain open and curious. Because being connected in meaningful ways to the important people in my life is my highest priority.PAM: Yes. I think when we see polarizing ideas, things that divide people into two opposing groups, like right and wrong or good and bad, that is a great clue to dig deeper. Things are rarely that simple, especially when it comes to relationships with the people we love. As you said, Anna, life is lived between those two poles, in the gray. And while sometimes that can definitely feel more nebulous, it is also, as we've mentioned, so much richer and it's more connected with the real human beings that we're choosing to be in relationship with. Celebrate the gray.ANNA: Absolutely. Okay, so let's talk about a few questions for pondering this week.So, how does it feel when someone puts their ideas of right or wrong on you? I think it's just always good to flip this around. So, just how does it feel? Because we've all had it happen. So, how does that feel?Do you notice an area where polarizing paradigms are impacting an important relationship? How would it feel to let it go and lean in to understand? And I think there's lots of times now where we have these polarizing beliefs that happen. What would it feel like to let go of the rightness of your position and just lean in to try to understand where that person's coming from?PAM: I want to bring back, how you mentioned open and curious, and I love how that helps us here. Letting go of feeling right isn't about replacing it with, "I'm wrong."ANNA: Right. Or changing your mind at all.PAM: Exactly. It's more expansive. It's bigger. It's about being open and curious to see how else other people are seeing things or feeling about things.ANNA: We just learn more. Again, it may not change our opinion, but maybe it gives us more information about the situation. Or maybe it's the "through their eyes" that we've talked about, too. We see why they got there, because their life is different than ours. Their experiences are different.So, letting go of that strong-held "right" just opens up. Again, it doesn't mean it's going to change your opinion necessarily, but I think it will give you a lot more information about the people around you. So, number three. How do you feel when someone blames you for something and you don't see it the same way. So, that can just give you some good clues about how blaming at any time never feels good, no matter what. If the person thinks that they're very right, that blaming just doesn't feel good.And number four, have you seen judgment impact a relationship with someone you love? And so, I think that's really good to dig in. And I would say if you have children, really look at that, too, because I think we do tend to lean into judging children about how they're spending their time or what they're doing and how that is impacting the relationship. But you'll also see it with your partners and friends and extended family. So, where's judgment coming into play? See where it's coming at you, see where you're putting it out there, and think about what it would feel like if you could let that go.PAM: I think that will be a huge one, too. Because even if we're not sharing our judgements. Maybe we take that first step, okay. I didn't say it. At that point, we could start to notice that we may still have an energy about it. We may still be bringing that piece. And most people can sense that, children can sense that.ANNA: For sure.PAM: People can sense when we are bringing a judging energy. And our questions, they feel less open and curious and more pointed when we're asking questions.ANNA: Right. And we're less willing to even talk about it. I think we're less willing to even share our perspectives with people when we feel that judgment coming at us. So, think about that in reverse with people. Why are they telling me this? Because, well, if they're sensing judgment, that may be stopping that conversation right there.PAM: Because you don't want to be giving them evidence is what it feels like.ANNA: Exactly. Right. Because you know they're sitting there waiting for like, what can I judge you about the situation? So, yeah, that's not the energy we want with these people that we love. That's not at all. And it's absolutely something we can change, even if it's something we've done historically, we can absolutely change it.And part of it would be this. So, number five, how would it feel to let go of black and white thinking and really dig into the gray with the people in your life, to trust that they're doing things for reasons that make sense to them and learning more about them, letting go of these really strong polarizing paradigms?So, I think it will be interesting to steep in that for a little bit and see where it's impacting your relationships and how that could possibly be different. PAM: I think that can be just such a fundamental mindset shift and it's internal. It's something that we can completely just play with ourselves for the first while.ANNA: We don't have to make any declarations. We could just play around with it. How does it feel and, "Okay, yeah. I do like the way it feels to just be more open and to not be judging everyone around me." And I remember someone in my life before telling me that she found her judgements of everyone else was because she was so harshly judging herself. And so, once she could get to that place of not harshly judging herself, she had no need or desire to judge the people around her. And so, that's another piece to kind of turn around and look at as well.So, we hope that everyone is enjoying their holiday season and hopefully some of the ideas we've been discussing will even make those big family gatherings a bit more enjoyable. Thank you so much for listening, and we will be back in two weeks. Take care. Bye!PAM: Bye!

This week, we're focusing on one of Anna's favorite mantras, "There's plenty of time." It's so common in our culture to live our lives with a sense of urgency, always feeling like we're in a rush—it's almost a badge of honor. Yet that energy can so often damage our relationships as we put pressure on each other to move quickly and follow a certain agenda.When we realize that we actually do have the time to consider our options, to communicate about everyone's needs, and to take the bigger picture context into account, we can give more space to both ourselves and our loved ones to figure out solutions that feel good to everyone.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.When you imagine the idea that there's plenty of time in the context of a disagreement with a friend, partner, or child, how does it feel? Expansive? Overwhelming? Just plain wrong? Why?Do you recall a time when an issue bubbled up again and again because you didn't take the time up front to more fully understand it? Where in your life do you feel time pressure? What if you could release that? How would that feel?Can you think of a time when feeling time pressure interfered with coming up with a creative solution to a challenge?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are thrilled you're here and interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about the idea that there is plenty of time. Now, it has been such a helpful tool for me over the years when navigating challenges with the people I love, and I believe I first heard about it from you, Anna!It's amazing how so many things that come up in our days can feel like emergencies, like they need to be solved as soon as possible. I think taking a moment to consider whether the situation at hand is a true emergency can help us release so much of the time pressure that we're feeling. Reminding ourselves that we have plenty of time gives us more space to explore the root of the issue, rather than throwing Band-aid after Band-aid at it just to quickly solve it. "I gotta get this, I gotta move through it." It's so fascinating just to consider having plenty of time.ANNA: Yes. Oh my goodness. So, it has been one of my main mantras for a very long time. Our society likes to operate with this extreme sense of urgency about everything and I get caught up in that really easily. I feel like time pressure is just a huge trigger for me that kind of sets me on this path of not thinking and just being really stressed out.And the thing is, I like to get things done. I like to check boxes. I like moving on to the next thing, and that can have its place. I can be super productive. But what I found was that carrying that sense of urgency around all the time did not help with my relationships at all. It takes time to navigate things in a relationship, and if you stop and take a breath, you can ask, is this really urgent? Is it an emergency? Does this need to be solved right this second? And often, you'll find the answer is, no. It does not need to be solved right this second. I can calm down.PAM: Right? And I find that even when we recognize that it's not an emergency, I feel that time pressure can trigger our need to perform, if that makes sense. As I was thinking, it's like, okay, yes, this is not emergency, but then boom, I still want to perform well. I want to solve it quickly and efficiently. I want to get an "A" in problem-solving, to be productive, because those are strong cultural messages we hear so often. But are they actually helpful goals in and of themselves, particularly when other people are involved?Another question that I found very useful to ask myself is, are we looking for future approval or validation about how we handle the situation? That's that performance piece, maybe from a person that we anticipate telling about the situation in the future. Are we looking at that more than we're looking with care and compassion to the other person in front of us who's involved?And yes, being someone who jumped straight to problem solving for many years and still works on it, another consequence I found was that solving a problem quickly was often shorthand for implementing my solution, which relationship-wise, often meant pushing through the other person's consent. And maybe not even obviously pushing through it, but more so by not even slowing down to ask them for their thoughts and ideas. Instead, just presenting my solution with an energy of, "Of course this makes sense and you'll agree. Let's do it."But I came to see that that approach definitely took a toll on my relationships, on my connections with the people in my life. Their trust in me dwindled because they felt less seen and heard by me over time, because I wasn't asking them what they thought. I wasn't asking them for their ideas. I was just saying, "Oh yeah, look, this happened. We can do this instead. Let's go." Just pulling them along with my energy.ANNA: Exactly. And as you'll hear us say so many times, everyone wants to feel seen and heard. So, anything that's short circuiting that is going to be an issue. And that's the thing. When we are holding speed and efficiency and production ahead of people and connection, it's going to take a toll. Period. And again, I like to be efficient and get things done. So, this isn't about just stopping all the things, but for me, it's about being aware of the energy I'm bringing into a situation.And if another person is involved, am I taking the time to really hear them and understand them, especially if we're talking about our most important relationships? It's key to avoiding conflicts and misunderstandings to give ourselves time to really hear one another. And I'm one who likes to fix and solve and to be fair, I have some very good ideas, Pam.PAM: You do. You do. ANNA: But no one wants to be dragged along, even for my really good idea. And so, remembering what we've talked about in the past on the podcast, how different everyone is. We see and process the world differently. So, my really good idea might be a really good idea for me and not for the person I'm in relationship with. But if I push through their consent with this intense sense of urgency, it ends up just leaving us feeling so disconnected.PAM: Yes. And when I'm feeling time pressure, particularly self-imposed time pressure, I've found that I am much more apt to take that conventional straight-line path from A to B to solve the problem, because it feels like a race against the clock to me. But when I can realize that that's happening and remind myself that there's plenty of time, I feel more expansive and free to be curious. I feel I have the space to more creatively navigate a challenge, because you know what? And that's fine, too. If it was just me, I could take my straight-line, A to B and do it and move on, but as I chat with the other person or the people that are involved, I can give them that space and just slowly map out what's going on. There are signposts of everyone's needs.Maybe there's lines of trees representing the constraints that we're discovering. Maybe environmental constraints, maybe time constraints, maybe capacity constraints. Maybe there's hills for aspects that feel a little bit harder. And flower gardens or some beautiful art in spots that we'd like to pass by if it works. And from there, once we kind of start to fill in that map, we can more fruitfully begin exploring paths through the space of the challenge that hit most of the need sign posts, navigate around many of the hills, and maybe even take some time to stop and soak in the view of a sunflower field in bloom.I know, maybe that sounds a bit sappy. But in my experience, our lives are so much richer when we give ourselves the time and space to be open and curious about the situation, to chat and ponder a bit more to get creative.ANNA: Yes. I love that image. Honestly, I can feel my body slowing down just thinking about it. And so, I think finding what helps you stay present in the moment and slow yourself down. Even to notice the sense of urgency and slow it down. So, what kind of imagery, what kind of breathing, what kind of things in the moment help bring you down? And again, that mantra of, "There's plenty of time," this vision of a map of all the possibilities we have, like whatever that is.And I think another aspect of peeling back the layers related to this is to look at where is the sense of urgency coming from? What is its purpose? Who is it serving? And asking those questions really helped me kind of deconstruct this a little bit, because the truth of it is, when we're rushing from task to task, there's very little time to question anything.And I think sometimes we think that sense of urgency is coming from within us, but I don't think it is. I think we've been trained to rush, to value efficiency and productivity above all else. And I think humans naturally want to connect, and the two just don't really work well together.So, the question for me becomes, do I want to sacrifice or harm my relationships so that I can be a better producer for society? And I would argue that people in strong connected relationships actually bring more to the world and end up producing the most amazing things. And so, how this looks in practice for me is, when I find myself feeling frustrated or trying to rush someone along to my chosen outcomes, I just stop and I take that breath and I say, "There's plenty of time." And I feel it. The energy instantly changes.And if I'm still struggling, I will ask myself, "Where is the sense of urgency coming from? Is it even real? And is it helping? Because even if we feel there is some real time constraint, there is some real thing that's driving it, is it helping me make the choices in the moment? Is it helping the two of us get through this situation? Because if it's not, we still need to set it aside, even if it's a real thing, because we're not getting anywhere.And, as I mentioned, so often this applies to our relationships with both kids and adults. Rushing a child out the door frustrated or pushing a partner to get something done on a timeline without regard to their experience of it, it just doesn't feel good to anyone. So, reminding myself there's plenty of time just grounds me back in that moment.Because the truth of it is, if we're five minutes late, if we miss the thing altogether, if the project doesn't get done, the world does not end. Most likely, a year later, it'll be hard to even remember what the issues were. But if we continually push past the people in our life, if we push them along this arbitrary timeline, it will absolutely impact the relationship, and that's something I want to avoid.Again, back to priorities from episode one, I want to keep my relationships as the priority. And if what's being handed to me by society is in conflict with that, then I want to question it and ultimately set it aside.PAM: Yes, exactly. With relationships as my priority, I want to use that lens as I navigate my days. And it's fascinating to discover how often cultivating connected relationships is at odds with the societal messages that we hear or even just infer from how people are moving through and navigating their days all around us.ANNA: So true!PAM: The immense value given to having power and influence over others, the call to create strong boundaries to protect ourselves from others, the importance of being productive members of society at the expense of others, it is just so interesting to think about how relationships, while talked about so often as being an important part of our lives, in reality, are often expected to take a backseat.So, with that, here are some questions you might want to ponder as you explore the idea that there's plenty of time.Our first one is, when you imagine the idea that there's plenty of time in the context of a disagreement with a friend, partner, or child, how does it feel? Just bring that idea, that lens of plenty of time in. Does it feel expansive? Does it feel overwhelming? Does it feel just plain wrong? "No, I don't have time." "Why?" is a great question to ask yourself at that point. What is it that's making me feel like I don't have time in this situation?The next question is, do you recall a time when an issue bubbled up again and again because you didn't take the time up front to more fully understand it? I find things can bubble up and we can solve them. We can put that Band-aid on them. But if we don't take the time to get to the root of things and really find out what the underlying need is, or play around with the process through which we move through things that come up regularly in our lives, we can just see it happening again and again.ANNA: I think that one can help people that have the efficiency piece, because really it is more efficient to take the time and deal with it and to actually figure out how we want to move through it, versus the plugging the holes or the Band-aids that we end up having to revisit and revisit and revisit the same challenges.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. It is so interesting to think about that, that we think we're being efficient, we think we're being productive, but so often, maybe it bubbles up over and over, but maybe it has relationship implications that I have to spend time with later. So, you can start to discover that it's really a choice of, where do I want to put my energy in the process? In the space up front or into the, going through it again and again.Okay. Okay. Question three. Where in your life do you feel time pressure? What if you could release that, how would that feel? I think that could be a big one, too. And if you release that, how would that feel? And where is it coming from? Is it something that I am putting on myself? Because so often, it's something that we're doing.ANNA: So often, it's something we're putting on ourselves that again, we kind of think is coming from somewhere else, maybe our job, or maybe school, or maybe something else.But really when we look at it, it's our interpretation of that that's putting this super intense sense of urgency and time pressure on it.PAM: Yes, yes. And sometimes we're just feeling that we have to bring somebody else's framework or approach and be the voice of them, whether that be society or a boss or a teacher, and that I have to be them now, because they're not here to say it, but is that how I really feel?All good stuff. Okay. Our last question. Can you think of a time when feeling time pressure interfered with coming up with a creative solution to a challenge? And this is one I just would love people to think about, because what I discovered over time is that even when it is just me, it can be so useful to take the space not to just go with A to B, the first thing that comes to mind.I have found there are so often more creative ways that that feel even better, that may be even more fun. There are so many possibilities. So, when I just let myself play with these things, take that time pressure off myself of something that I need to do, like the bathroom thing. It's like, just do the damn bathrooms and get it done. I can tell myself that story, but it's so much easier or so much more fun when I can just give myself some space to play with it.ANNA: Yeah. And I think the time allows us to bring in the context that we talk about so much, because if we're just going point A to point B, we're really missing a lot of context around us. And then that can inform us, because again, maybe it helps us make a decision that saves us some work down the road or that keeps a relationship intact that we might be running over. And so, taking that time for ourselves to take in that context, to me, just makes it easier, more fun, and a lot of times, even more efficient.PAM: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. Thanks so much for listening, everyone, and we will see you next time. Bye!

The idea of boundaries comes up pretty often in conventional circles, often through the lens of self-care, encouraging people to set boundaries with their kids, their partners, their parents, and so forth, and to stay strong in defending them.But in this week's episode, we're digging into the language of boundaries and exploring some alternative ways of communicating our needs and learning about the important people in our lives. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Think of a boundary you hold right now with your partner or a close friend. What might be gained from having some conversations around it? Might it give them some more helpful information about you? Could it help you feel more seen and heard in the relationship? How does the idea of using comfort zones to better understand and communicate your needs land with you? How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive? Can you think of times that you didn't trust someone else's definition of their capacity? How did it play out? Did it impact your relationship? TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully podcast. We are happy you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about boundaries, comfort zones, and capacity. And it may end up being a bit longer than usual, but we are really excited to have this conversation. There are some big paradigm shifts around these ideas that can really have a positive impact on your relationships.Now, our focus with this podcast is on cultivating connected, trusting, and respectful relationships with our partner, with our children, with anyone we choose to have that level of a relationship with. And we soon discover that that means deeply understanding ourselves so that we can more gracefully navigate the edges where we engage with others. So, that's really the foundation of this conversation.And to start with, let's dive into the idea of boundaries, because it comes up pretty often in conventional circles, often through the lens of self-care, encouraging individuals to set strong boundaries with their partners, for their parents, to set boundaries with their kids, and just to stay strong in defending them.And the motivation behind that idea makes a lot of sense. It's to encourage us to not be manipulated into doing things that we don't want to do. That makes a lot of sense. But the solution proposed of setting and defending boundaries can often create challenges and disconnection in our relationship. Can't it?ANNA: Yes! I just don't find the boundary language particularly helpful. So, the energy of it feels very final and it has this feeling of drawing a line in the sand and, "I'm going to defend that line to the death," and also that somehow, I'm letting myself down if I don't uphold it, which is just this double whammy coming at us.PAM: Exactly.ANNA: So, the alternative I found is to look at the moment in front of me, to be honest about where I am, what I can do in that moment, because it changes. There are things we can't anticipate about the situations we're faced with.And I think, especially with my loved ones, I want to have an energy of curiosity and connection. Standing on the other side of an intensely drawn boundary just doesn't have the same feel to me. And this could be a language thing. I'm definitely a word person and I tend to respond energetically to words. So, I look to my language to help me cultivate the energy I want to bring and the person I want to be in a situation. That's why these words are important to me and why I really love teasing apart these nuances.PAM: Yes, yes. I find it very helpful to consider my language, as well, including the language I use when thinking or talking to myself. When I use the word "boundaries," does it mean a hard stop to me? When I envision someone approaching it and approaching me, am I looking at the line or am I looking at the person?Because what a pre-drawn line doesn't do is consider the context of the moment. Am I feeling resourced and centered? Are they? How's our day been going? What does their request look like through their eyes? What does it look like through my eyes? What constraints may be at play? Can we get curious together about ways to navigate it this time?Because I think one of the things we worry about is, if I do it this time, I'll have to do it every time. "There's that boundary. I moved that boundary and now it's forever there." But that is not true. We are not giving tacit permission forever more. We're chatting with them about this particular moment and that is how we learn more about each other.ANNA: Oh my gosh. Exactly. And keeping in mind that context keeps it from feeling arbitrary to the other person involved as well. We're reacting together to the context of the situation, and that's where the learning's happening.And I do think boundaries can have a place when we're faced with toxic relationships. This can be friends or even family from our family of origin. When a relationship is harming us, when we find ourselves tied in knots thinking about it, when we see it impacting our mental health or happiness, boundaries can be a helpful step to distance ourselves enough to see the situation more clearly. Even that doesn't have to be a forever step, but it can be a self-preservation step to gain perspective and to decide if this relationship is one that will work for us going forward.But if we're choosing to spend our life with someone, I truly believe that boundary language just tends to shut down communication. It doesn't leave room for finding solutions that feel good to both parties. And I think it's important to realize that this is not about not expressing or meeting our needs, but when we do it in relationship, it looks so different.If we want to have a consensual relationship where the parties involved are heard and seen and we find agreeable solutions, standing behind a hard boundary can get in the way of that. And I've found that I can honor who I am and still be open and curious to finding solutions that feel good to everyone involved.PAM: Yes! I think that is such an important distinction. We're talking about relationships with the people in our lives with whom we want to cultivate strong, connected, and trusting relationships.So, when it comes to extended family or people at work, a boundary can be a useful tool to quickly communicate our needs to someone. But with those we want a closer and more intimate relationship with, a boundary can get in the way of that. We tend to pull that out instead of having a conversation.But it's in those conversations where we come to better understand each other, where we cultivate connections, where we build trust. That space is where relationships flourish.ANNA: Yes. And so, another thing that I've noticed, I call the pendulum. For much of our early life, we're basically subject to others in a variety of different ways. We're told what to do, how to do it, often subjugating our needs and preferences. And somewhere along the line, often in our thirties and forties, we have this awakening and we realize, "Wait a minute! My needs are important here, too!"And so, you can go into this intense period of advocating for your needs. And I think this is when the strong boundary language that we hear around really resonates with people. "Yes! This feels awesome!" But I've also seen that as we get a bit older that things soften and we realize that we don't have to defend our needs to the death, that we can honor ourselves and honor another, and that solutions are really there to be found.And I want to say very clearly that there's no right and wrong about this. There's no timeline about any of it. It's just an interesting pattern and I think it can help to be aware of it and maybe watch for it. Are we swinging way over here? Do we want to come back maybe more towards the center? See how it's feeling as we play with unpacking any baggage we have in this area.And I think pretty much all of us have some baggage in this area.PAM: Yeah, no, I do love the metaphor or the image of the pendulum, and absolutely it can be a valuable part of our journey, a helpful part, to swing right up to the very edge, because then we're gaining experience with what that feels like, and we notice the pieces that aren't working.And when we understand those kinds of patterns, it can be helpful for us, too, to help us recognize where we might be on the journey and use that information to help us just decide where we want to go next.But I do love that idea of the patterns and just paying attention, because, for me, I enjoy looking for that and seeing those bigger picture patterns of how things flow.And you mentioned the baggage that we can bring. Because, for me, as I thought about how the idea of boundaries feels for me, and thinking back to when I was first playing around with this, I realized that I grew up steep in the conventional culture of competition. So, as I started thinking about this myself, that's one of the places I went.So, when I thought about how I anticipated engaging with others in terms of boundaries, it really spiked my defensive energy. As soon as I was feeling defensive, I saw the other person, whether it was my child, partner, whoever I was engaged with, I saw them as the opposition. Like, "You're the enemy, because I need to defend this boundary. This is a win-lose situation."And time and again after having brought that energy to many a conversation, just like you were saying, I learned through experience that when I did that, especially with someone that I love, that perspective and energy just hindered our interaction. It got in the way of us moving forward.I noticed that my defensiveness raised their defensiveness, which meant that we were both less empathetic. We were just defending harder and harder. And we were each just focused on our own bits and we were only seeing it through our own lens. We listened to the other person not to hear those new bits of information that curiosity can bring and that we notice. We were listening to them so that we could find the things that we could twist in support of the position that we were defending.So, as I sat with the discomfort of these two seemingly contradictory ideas, "I need boundaries so that people don't walk all over me," and, "I want to be connected to this person," I came to see that, for me, the image of holding a boundary sparks that defensive energy, which negatively impacts my connection with my loved ones.So, even a rule or a boundary that made sense to me, what it did was shut down so much rich conversation and learning and my opportunity to learn more things about these people in my life, things that I would have never discovered if I didn't have that conversation in the first place. But those conversations didn't bubble up if it was just like, "No, you can't do that. You can't do that." ANNA: Right. And that's the thing. We're talking about a very different style of communication and problem solving, and so I hope it's clear that as we're looking at it, because we have this one side, you the zero-sum game, defend your position at all costs. That's pretty common in our culture. We see it in governments to toddlers.And then here, we're talking about listening, stating our needs, listening to someone else's needs, having those conversations, learning more about each other, moving forward together on the same team. It's so different, but it's so much more pleasant and so rich with the discoveries about each other and where we can go from there.PAM: Absolutely. And what helped encourage me to have those conversations was moving away from the idea of boundaries. And instead, I started using the idea of comfort zones. And what that shift from boundaries to comfort zones reminded me to do was to bring my sense of self. So, it's not about, "I have no boundaries now, do whatever," again. It's never about taking our needs out of the equation. It's more fully bringing our needs into the moment and into that conversation without having to draw that line in the sand.So, boundaries feel external to me while comfort zones feel internal. Comfort zones remind me to open up and lean in rather than to stand there right behind the line.ANNA: Right. And, for me, it's that line in the sand that I wanted to avoid. And with comfort zones, I just like the feel of it, because we do talk about stretching and growing our comfort zones, and I think all of my relationships have helped me do that.I think we can come into all of our relationships with some pretty rigid ideas of how things should be. And that can stem from our childhood experiences, the prevailing relationship ideas around us, what's being modeled for us. But those rigid beliefs don't take into account the actual humans that we're living with, how they see the world, what feels good to them, how they process information, what they want to accomplish and learn. And that's where the curiosity and the communication that we're talking about comes into play.I don't have to stretch my comfort zone, but I want to be open to examining it, especially if it's somehow putting a limit on someone else. And so, that's why, in general, I just prefer to look at needs. If we have a situation where we're at an impasse, if we switch the focus to the underlying needs, then we have more room to find the creative solutions that feel good to both of us. So, I like the feel of that again. It's just a totally different paradigm.PAM: It really is. And I love the way you framed that as needs. For me, that shift was that these conversations really ended up being less about the thing, the thing that we were in conflict about, and just more about the people involved, which fully included me, and that's where the needs come in.Being curious about what the person is needing or wanting to do and understanding the motivation behind that.Why is that the next step that makes the most sense to them? And why is that next step right at the edge of my comfort zone? Why is that needling at me? And when we better understand those pieces, we can better explain our perspective and needs to them, which gives them the opportunity to understand us better.And then, from there, maybe they give us more information that we didn't think of, information that addresses our need. Maybe we give them a piece of information that they missed, and together we find a different way to meet their need. There's just so much more space for people to move when you take out the competitive nature of that hard line and just start playing, just start thinking, just start sharing what your needs are, what you're wanting to accomplish, and seeing where that goes. We can be so much more creative when you take that competitive nature out, I think.ANNA: Right! Because, as humans, if we're backed into a corner, we'll defend something to the death even if we don't agree with it. It's just this reaction when someone's coming at us to start defending. But you see that very different exchange that you were just talking about. It's like, "Well, here's what I'm feeling worried about." "Oh, okay. Well, what about this then? What about that?" We're working together to try to make both of us feel comfortable, both of us feel good moving forward, and it's just so different.PAM: Yeah, and I like how it feels, understanding that I'm choosing to stretch my comfort zone rather than naming it in my self-talk as, "I failed to defend my boundary." It's night and day how that feels. "I failed," or "I chose." And we can also choose to just not stretch, but we can choose to operate completely outside our comfort zone for a while. Sometimes a situation needs me to do something that in any other circumstances I would not choose to do, but this is where I am right now, and that's not a failure either.ANNA: Right. And I think relationships give us so many opportunities to do that, to stretch, but also to just step outside for a minute to take care of business. But I always want to ground myself in the choice. And you mentioned it before.So, I'm not great at parties. Again, this is a well-known fact. If David wants to go to a party with his friends, it will no doubt stretch my comfort zone. But instead of feeling pressured or as if I need to set a boundary around it, I can first ground myself in the fact that I always have a choice. And then I can also feel that choice and I can bring into play my whys.In this case, I want to support him. He thinks it'll be a fun night. And so, with some further conversation, we can figure out a way for it to feel good to us both. Maybe for me, that's knowing where it will be, who will be there, how long will we need to stay. Should I drive separately? If that doesn't feel good, can we agree not to stay too late?That conversation helps us learn more about each other. He's learning what my concerns are, also what my tender areas are, and I'm learning why it's important to him and what parts he's looking forward to and why he wants to go in the first place. And if I just shut that down summarily, "I don't go to parties, I don't like them," we'd miss this chance to dig into that and to find something that feels good to both of us.PAM: Yes. And that is the beauty of comfort zones for me versus boundaries. It encourages me to actually pay attention to the moment, to the context of the moment, versus, this is my line. This is always my line.Conversations are so much richer and our relationship connections are strengthened, not strained. I love that piece. When we have that boundary, "I don't go to parties," that's just what we pull out. But remembering my why, and everybody's why, I can support the why and the joy and all those pieces.And there are times when I'm feeling resourced, when I'm just in a great place and I can stretch my comfort zone a bit and we can enjoy this thing together. Maybe we're not enjoying the same pieces, but we can jigger things around so that there are also pieces that work for me. That's so much richer and there's just so many more experiences in our lives, like not literally having to do things, but our worlds are bigger when we know more about each other, when we can navigate those pieces.Okay, so there's one more aspect that we wanted to explore, and that's the idea of capacity. I feel it fits so beautifully with this conversation of boundaries and comfort zones, because sometimes we do have a pretty hard limit on what we can physically or emotionally take on in a particular moment, and it can feel a bit more definitive than a comfort zone.So, for example, having a migraine or being very tired can definitely impact our ability to engage. So, even if we're not able to stretch right now, I think the idea of capacity just feels more informative and less confrontational. It feels more supportive of the conversations that we're talking about than a boundary or a limit, or, "I can't do this."It quickly communicates to ourselves and to the others involved in the conversation what we are feeling that we are and aren't able to take on in this moment. It's more information about us, again. And capacity can be a great lens to use for us to check in with ourselves and just really feel what's up.If our first reaction is, "Oh my god, no! I don't want to go to a party!" Oh, where did that really strong reaction come from? Oh, maybe my capacity's really low and I need to do something to address that. ANNA: Oh my gosh. Yes. Capacity just feels so much more descriptive to me and it's much more about the moment that we're in, because my capacity at the end of a long day is very different from my capacity in the morning. And there can be so many things at play that come into this piece of capacity. Sleep, money, time, illness, all of these different factors.But what I want to do with all exchanges with the people I love is to keep us on the same side. They aren't trying to thwart me or harm me. We're all just trying to get our needs met. And as we keep those lines of communication open, we build trust in each other to work together to help meet all of our needs.And another idea that a friend introduced to me related to capacity is that we can operate within our capacity and survive, but we might not be able to thrive. So, we're kind of on the edge of our capacity and we can physically get it done, but it might be taking an emotional toll or even a physical toll, so that when we keep choice in that equation, we can choose to operate within our capacity to thrive. We can communicate that to the people in our lives and help them do the same.So, I can honor who I am and still support my partner or child, and they can honor who they are and still consider those around them. It's really important to me to honor someone else's comfort zone or their personal definition of capacity, even if I don't understand it or I think they could do more.This, again, comes into play with our partners and our children. Our honoring of this helps them develop a strong sense of what works for them and their why. I want to trust their process and that they will stretch when it feels right to them. And so, maybe it's helpful next time we bump up against someone when we think they could do a bit more than maybe they are, is to consider that maybe they're operating within their capacity to thrive, not their capacity to survive. And wouldn't it be beautiful if we could all stay in that thriving zone as much as possible?Because there are going to absolutely be times where we are pushed way outside of it to deal with an emergency or because something has happened around us that we can't control. But what if, when we see our loved one not doing something that we think they could, we give them that generous assumption that it's really just them knowing themselves, knowing that whatever it is may push them over an edge that is into survival mode versus thriving. I just love that framing of it as we look at another person and maybe, hopefully it stops the judgment.PAM: Oh yes. I love looking at things through their eyes, which we had talked about earlier. And even when we don't understand why they're making the choices they're making, remembering that we don't need to, that it is making sense to them, even if we think that they should be able to do X, Y, or Z.It doesn't matter. What matters and what's interesting, that's where my curiosity goes, is, "Ooh. That's feeling really good to them." And remembering that their choices really aren't about me. They are not trying to piss me off with this choice. There is some reason for them.So, I love that distinction between thriving and surviving. Because when we honor those choices, it just gives us another piece of the picture of who they are and understanding that there can be so many reasons why for them. Capacity can be a reason why they aren't up for it or don't want to stretch or do the thing that you know that they are capable of doing sometimes.And it's especially helpful to question the boundaries that are handed to us by society. One that we see held up often in conventional culture is, "I'm not going to do something for someone else that they can do for themselves." Oh my gosh. "They need to learn how to take care of themselves." You see it more often with children, but absolutely you see it with adults, too, that if we do it for them, we are being taken advantage of.ANNA: But really, we're just missing these opportunities to deepen that relationship. And then what I've seen, and I know you've seen it, too, is that when I'm feeling out of sorts and I'm just not wanting to get my own water or whatever it is, both my partner and my kids were happy to bring it over to me because that's the relationship that we cultivated.I don't want to die on a hill of, "I'm not going to do something for you, because you can do it for yourself." I do things for people all the time that they can absolutely do for themselves. I do it from a place of love and because it's within my capacity. And when it's not, I know they've got my back. And these skills are critical in all relationships, understanding it's about learning to communicate more about my needs versus expecting them to understand it or stand behind this strongly-drawn boundary with no explanation. It's just more information and transparency. The more we have, the easier it is to be in relationship. And, for me, the human experience is relationships.PAM: It's relationships. I know. And when you think about it, the more information that you have, it is so often so much easier to find that path through those pieces of information. If I only have two pieces, "They want to do this," and, "I don't want them to do this," how do you find a path between the chasm of those two things?But as we share a little bit more information back and forth, we're narrowing in on the path that we can travel between those. Sometimes it takes three sentences and off we go, we've got it figured out. And sometimes it takes longer conversations, maybe over days and weeks, but we can find our way. ANNA: I mean, it's just a quick way for me to go, "Hmm. Okay. I want to turn this around a little bit. I want to look at what's happening to get us back on the same side," because even when it feels really hard, and it may take a couple weeks to figure out something that's really big that we're trying to figure out as a family or a couple, if we're both over here together working on the problem, it feels so much better than being on these separate sides with this giant decision in front of us, and we're not really communicating about what our capacity or comfort zones are or any of those pieces. And it feels isolating and tough. But when we're together, even if it takes us time, it just feels better. It's about being open about it and examining that and seeing what makes sense to you and it's so individual.PAM: Yeah, it's so individual. It's so rich. And as we talked about in an earlier episode, where do we want to spend our time? Do I want to spend my time on the same team working together? Finding a way? Because when you're working together and finding your way together, you're both invested in this path at the end of it, rather than one powering over another, convincing you to do it this way, or us convincing them to do it this way. But then there's tears at the relationship. And then we need to invest the work in, in repairs.So, for this week, we have some fun questions for you to ponder around the ideas of boundaries, comfort zones, and capacities.The first is, think of a boundary you hold right now with your partner or a close friend. What might be gained from having some conversations around it? Might it give them some more helpful information about you, help you feel more seen and heard in the relationship?I think that's another big piece. A boundary only shares that little line of information. It doesn't share all the little pieces of me that came up with that in the first place.ANNA: And can we really be understood if they don't understand those other pieces? They can still honor that boundary. And maybe that feels okay, but with a partner who I'm in love with and this is who I want to be with, that deeper understanding of why that is a rub for me would be so much more important to me than them just honoring what might feel like an arbitrary boundary to them.PAM: Exactly. Without that information, it can feel like an arbitrary boundary. And absolutely, they can still respect it, but there is a richness that's missing then that's the only piece of communication.Okay, so next, how does the idea of using comfort zones to better understand and communicate your needs land with you? Does that make sense? Maybe try that framework and that language next time and see how it unfolds. Remember, as we talked about, let's play with this. Let's see. Nothing is a forever commitment. It's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm going to try this comfort zone thing, and now I can never use any other language." No. Play with it.ANNA: We're just having fun. We're just learning things. We're just trying to learn more about ourselves.PAM: Yes, yes. Okay. Next one. How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive? Another great question, just to dive into that self-awareness piece. It may not be something that we communicate very often, but understanding it about ourselves, noticing how often we are stepping outside of our capacity to thrive more in survival mode. And then that also can help us understand why we're feeling tired, why we don't feel like we have a lot of energy, what kind of self-care pieces that we can bring in there. Anyway, it's a great question to start with. How often do you operate outside of your capacity to thrive?ANNA: Because I think it also impacts our relationships. So, our culture values this operating at just survival mode. And so, it's something we all fall into, schools and work and all the things that we're doing. And so, it is a really interesting question to say, "Am I able to thrive and have the relationships that I want and do the things that bring joy to me? And what can I change?" So, it's like, "Am I operating outside of that and then what would that look like?" So, I think, yeah, that's going to be really interesting.PAM: Yes. And our last one, can you think of times that you didn't trust someone else's definition of their capacity? Ooh, that's a good one. How did it play out? Did it impact your relationship? It's very curious to see what other people's lens of their capacity is. As you were saying, are they just living through the cultural expectation that we survive, we go till we drop, put it all in, we are productive to the max. Are they bringing that in? ANNA: And I want to add to this one a little bit, that sometimes when we are in that survival mode, when we are pushing, pushing, pushing, we can have resentment towards someone that's choosing differently. And that resentment may not even make a lot of sense to us, but I think when you look at it through this lens, it's like, oh, wait a minute. Do I really want to be resentful or passing judgment on someone that's actually taking care of their mental health and doing this for self-care, just because I'm running my nose to the grindstone?So, I think it's really interesting. For me, again, it's this awareness. It's like, when we name these things, we're able to distance ourselves. It doesn't feel like it's all who we are. We can go, "Okay, this is something I can examine. I can play with it. I can see how it feels." You don't have to make changes, but playing with it just gives you so much more information. And especially if you see it causing a problem in a relationship, it's very much worth your time to look at those pieces.PAM: Yeah. Oh, that's one of the reasons why we are so excited to be sharing these questions, because we are not trying to get rid of some rules or paradigms and then being prescriptive about how, now you must do it this way. No, let's play with these ideas. These are things that we've found helpful in our relationships, paradigm shifts that have helped us. There is no expectation that it will work out any particular way for anyone else, but it is so worth the time to play with it. ANNA: And especially if you're feeling pinches, because I think that's the thing, if our relationships are humming along, then we've got a good understanding. Whatever we're doing is working.But when we start to feel the pinch, when we start to feel a distance, when we have a rupture for whatever reason, using these things that we're talking about can help us really kind of zero in versus standing in a place of hurt or not really knowing how to make the repair or not knowing how to change it even if we can make the repair, because we don't know how we got there.And so, these pieces allow us to play with that and to look at it and be like, "Okay, I'm going to be more intentional about this piece for these relationships that are important to me." PAM: Yeah. And for the moving forward piece, like standing there, "I don't know how we got there," and two weeks later, "I don't know how we got there."ANNA: We're here again!PAM: Okay. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next time. Bye.ANNA: Bye bye.

In this week's episode, we're talking about seeing through someone else's eyes, rather than walking in their shoes. This is a valuable paradigm shift to consider when trying to learn more about the people in our lives. By considering people's unique personalities, interests, and sensitivities, we can better understand their choices and avoid a lot of conflict and misunderstandings.We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. Join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.Take a moment to think about a close friend or loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions?Pick an issue or challenge you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why?Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently?Let's explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goals? Strengths and weaknesses? Interests and passions? How do they inform the day to day choices you make?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are thrilled you're interested in exploring relationships with us, who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we move through the world.And in today's episode, we are going to talk about seeing through someone else's eyes. This was another big paradigm shift for me in how I choose to be in relationship with others, because over the years, I have often heard the advice to walk in the other person's shoes so that we can better understand them and what they're experiencing.But I discovered that, for me, that didn't go quite far enough. So, I put myself in my partner's shoes or my child's shoes, see what challenges and constraints they were facing, and come up with what I thought was a great plan for moving forward. And then they didn't agree. And I was like, "What? Why not? This is perfect!" I just didn't understand why they wouldn't follow my suggestions and I judged them negatively for their lack of cooperation. Like, "Let's move through this, people! Here's a great way to do it. You're just being stubborn." They must see how well my plan would work out.So, when that wasn't working, I dug into it more. And jumping off what we talked about last week about how different people are in so many ways, I realized that putting myself in someone else's shoes meant that I was still using my experiences and perspectives, my ways of processing, and my preferred ways of engaging with the world. I was still filtering this new view of the world through the lenses that made sense to me.I discovered that beyond walking in their shoes, I wanted to try seeing through their eyes. Oh my goodness! The picture is so much richer. It holds their experiences and preferences, how they prefer to process information, and how they prefer to engage with the world. It holds their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, their interests and passions.And their choices now made so much more sense to me, because I can see how they were the best choices for them. In the same situation, I, in their shoes, may well make a very different choice, but that is entirely because I'm me. Because people are different, when I want to connect with someone, when I want to more fully understand their experiences and support them as they move through their days, putting myself in their shoes isn't as helpful as seeing it through their eyes.ANNA: Oh my goodness. Yes! I really loved when I first heard you talking about this, because it really puts this very helpful visual on why my attempts at solving things for everybody falls a bit flat. And I love to solve things. And in my early days, my inclination was definitely to look at someone's concern and set about finding a solution for them. And it was often rooted in how I would want to handle it, how would I want to move through it? But like you said, as soon as you start digging into this, really even at all, you see why it doesn't work. And, as is so often the case, turning it around really helps me see why.So, I have this close friend and she moves through the world in a very different way. She is a go-getter. She makes the call. She finishes the thing. She tells people what she needs in this very direct way. So, when I would share something with her, she would offer advice based on how she moves through the world and it would often just leave me feeling misunderstood, really. Disconnected.It wasn't that her ideas weren't valid or even amazing, but they were not likely to work for me, because it just isn't as easy for me to make that call to someone out of the blue or to be super direct about what I need from them. But when someone understands those pieces about me, they can help me find ways to get what I want that feel comfortable. Maybe there will be some stretching and that's okay, but it'll be grounded in who I am and give me the best chance of actually being able to do it and to solve the problem that's in front of me to begin with.So, that realization really helped me stop doing it to others. And instead, I focused on listening and learning and seeing through their eyes, helping them find ways that resonated with them and who they are and how they want to move through the world.PAM: Yes. And I think it is really important to just note that seeing through someone else's eyes is a skill that we get better with over time. We need to practice with releasing our lenses. Sometimes we've got lenses in there that we really don't know that we have until we start pulling them away. And how can we not value our way of seeing it and being in the world as better? It goes back to last week's episode. We're all different, and that's okay. One way isn't better than the other, except that that's our natural tendency to do it. So, it can be hard to just release that valuing, because it really is better for us.And also, our relationships with our loved ones become more connected just because we come to better understand their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions, which means we can more accurately bring those aspects into the picture and vice versa. We are sharing ours and they learn more about us. It just takes time, doesn't it? We always like to think, okay, this makes sense. I'm going to do this right now. Let's go.ANNA: Forever more! But it does take time and I think with everything, be gentle with ourselves as we figure it out. And do little steps, like starting with, "Well, this is how I might move through that." Just that little qualification, being clear about that as opposed to saying, "I think you should do this," which is sometimes where we go, but that's a great start. That little qualification, "This is how I might move through that." It leaves room for connection and learning more, because at that point, they can say, "I don't think I could do that." And then you're able to learn more and have more of that conversation.But dropping the judgment piece that you were just talking about, I think, is really the most important and sometimes the hardest. "Well, if they would just do it the way I want them to, it would be solved." Well, if the "this" is not something that feels good to them, it won't solve it and it actually will just leave the person feeling like there's something wrong with them or that they're completely misunderstood and it definitely can impact our connection and relationship. And there isn't anything wrong with them. There isn't only one way to do something. They just may not want to move through the world in the same way that I do.So, we can let go of that judgment and commit to learning more about who they are and what feels best to them. Sharing our ideas, absolutely, but with this open, curious mindset that they might be seeing it in a very different way.PAM: Yes. Exactly. This tool of seeing through their eyes, how it works, is also really helpful when we just want to understand a choice they're making. Maybe they're not looking for our input.So, when we see a choice and it doesn't make sense to us, maybe it's not a choice we would ever make, but when we take a moment to see it through their eyes, all of a sudden it can make so much more sense.And, that said, sometimes no matter how hard we try to see through their eyes, we just don't understand why they want to do the thing they want to do. So, in those moments, what works for me is leaning on my understanding again, that people are different. And not taking things personally, like we talked about. They're not making this choice to piss me off. They're making it because it makes sense to them.So, that helps me move through any judgment of them that I might be feeling, and instead get curious. Because judgment is not only disconnecting, it's often a clue that I'm just missing something. So, I might ask more questions to try to better understand and absolutely, sometimes that helps. Sometimes I was just missing this little piece. It's like, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense.Sometimes they can't explain things in a way though that makes sense to us. That again, doesn't mean that they're wrong. I can choose to trust them to make their own decisions, and we will all learn more as things unfold over time. That is beautiful. When we see how things unfold, when we see their next step and their next step, we see a bigger picture of what's happening.And if things do go a bit sideways for them, when I'm not bringing that judgmental energy of, "I told you so. I had a better idea," when we're not bringing that to the conversation, we can support them as they tweak their path over time to get where they want to go.Or maybe I discover a new aspect of them that I didn't know about. Maybe it's a new aspiration that's been bubbling up. Maybe it's a fear, a new interest, a sensitivity, like we talked about before, that may be developing.So, when we're open and curious about the people that we're in relationship with, we all grow and learn and change alongside each other, which is so much more connecting and fun than trying to coax and control each other to do what we think is best. ANNA: So much yes. My goal is connection and part of that is understanding these differences and not only learning to understand, but the next step is really celebrating. And when we can celebrate even when we don't fully understand, that makes such a difference. The world is richer for us all playing to our strengths and supporting one another to do that. This is especially true for the people we are choosing to share our life with. But, I mean, for me, it really goes for all people.It's back to that generous assumption and cultivating an open, curious mindset, so that we can begin to understand why people are seeing the world differently. Why are they choosing differently? And knowing that those different ways of seeing and doing are not attacks on our way of seeing and doing. Both can and do exist. And to be in relationship with someone, celebrating that instead of judging helps us avoid conflicts and misunderstanding, and it really deepens that trust and bond we have with each other, because we feel deeply understood, which is so important to us as humans, often.PAM: So much. Just take a moment to sink into that and just feel, somebody knowing us to that level, which also includes us knowing ourselves. We kind of need to get there ourselves before we can even share those pieces of information with others. But, as you said, it does help us avoid so much conflict and misunderstanding and taking things personally and judging others and having expectations of others, and instead, deepens our connection, deepens our trust, deepens that whole bond that we have, within our whole family.And then, as you said, it's our choice how deep and strong a relationship we want with anybody who passes through our lives. So many of these tools are also useful, at least I have found, in my extended relationships as well.So, here are some questions that you might want to ponder as you explore this really fun difference between walking in someone's shoes and seeing through their eyes. So, the first one is, take a moment to think about a close friend or a loved one. How would you describe their aspirations and goals, their strengths and weaknesses, and their interests and passions? It's really fun to do that. And then, you know what? It might be really fun to check in with them. And say, "Hey, this is what I'm thinking. This is how I'm seeing you. What have I nailed? What have I maybe gone a little sideways on?" It could spark a really, really fun conversation.ANNA: Yeah. I think that's a great conversation.PAM: Yeah. Especially when we just come at it that way, rather than it coming out after a conflict or around a conflict or something. There is no energy and judgment in the air. It's just like, let's have this fun conversation. Okay. Next.Pick an issue or challenge that you recently navigated with family or friends. What did it look like through your eyes? Now try to see it through the eyes of someone else who was involved. How does it look different? How does it look the same? Why do you think that is? Just start playing with that, as well. Where are the the places where you see the same things and where might we see things differently? And then maybe play it through a little bit more, like the choices that people made throughout whatever issue or challenge it was, do they make more sense to you now that you're looking at it through their eyes?ANNA: I think what happens when we do this piece, where we step back and go, how are they seeing it? It takes some of the charge out of it, because when we are only seeing through our eyes, we're bulldozing down the tunnel to get to our end point. But when we step back and go, oh my gosh, I can see how they're seeing that in a really different way, suddenly, the charge comes out of it and we can get on the same team. We can go, okay, I'm seeing it this way. You're seeing it that way. Let's talk about that. It just changes that whole dynamic of the head butting that can happen, you know?PAM: Yeah. And just think how that helps everyone involved feel seen and heard, no matter what the end path is. When we recognize how other people are experiencing it, that can be so valuable. All right, next.Remember a time you judged someone else about their choice or decision, and now let's do a thought experiment with that. Where did that judgment stem from? If you released that judgment and got more curious about why that choice made sense for them, how might things have played out differently? One thing that's important for us and why that playful attitude helps is it's not valuable for us to judge our past actions and thoughts. We're learning more now. We're playing with things now. The stuff that we're figuring out, we can bring with us into future encounters, future engagements, conflicts, choices, all those pieces.So we can, in our own thought experiments, play around with anything. It's okay that, man, I felt really judgey about that person that day or this thing that I saw. Maybe I know nobody who was involved, but it's worth it to think, okay, where did that judgment come from? What does that mean for me? Why is that important to me? All those pieces can be really helpful for understanding ourselves and for making maybe different choices as we move forward.ANNA: Right. That's what I was going to say. I think when we play around with some of these ones in the past, again, this is not to judge how we handled something in the past. This is not to make ourselves feel bad. But it's giving us a chance in a lower charged environment to look at that. And I think when we recognize where the judgment came in and recognize how it maybe didn't serve us in that situation, when we feel it bubbling up when something comes up ahead of us, we can go, oh, okay, this judgment, do I want to look into this now? Do I want to dig back and peel some layers back now? And so, I think that practice can help us actually help in the moment or the things that are to come.PAM: Exactly. And lastly, let's explore the story of you. What are your current aspirations and goal, strengths and weaknesses, interests and passions? How do they inform the day-to-day choices you make? I think sometimes we can kind of disconnect. We can think of these big things like, what are my goals? What are my strengths? How do I like to do things? What are my passions? And yet, we don't bring those down into our day-to-day. Or we don't make the connection. They may be subconsciously directing our choices throughout the day, because our mind knows these are the things that we value.But when we can recognize that, we can also notice that we're making more progress than we think towards our goal, et cetera. So, understanding how all those pieces weave together can be so valuable for ourselves. So, it's absolutely helpful to do this.ANNA: Yeah, and I think, too, it kind of reminds me of the priorities episode, too, with that intentionality we're bringing it, but I think what I really want to say about this question, and we'll keep talking about this, we need to develop our own self-awareness in order to be able to communicate with our partners. So, in order to be able to say what's important to us and what we're doing so that they can understand, because none of us are mind readers. So, this work of really digging into, what am I excited about? What's making me tick? How am I looking at these things? is so valuable on so many layers for us and for those in our lives.PAM: Exactly. Yes. We hope you have so much fun with these questions and we would be happy to carry on the conversation, whether you want to comment on YouTube, whether you want to comment on Instagram. We would love to hear some of your processing through these questions if you'd like to share. And thank you so much for listening, and we will see you next time. Bye!

This week, we're talking about connection!How connected we're feeling to the people in our lives is a helpful barometer of our relationships. Feeling disconnected can be a sign that it's time to more intentionally cultivate connecting moments. Anna shares one of the questions that guides her decision-making: 'Is what I'm about to do going to enhance or harm my connection with this person?' We also explore the idea of bids for connection, which can be an enlightening lens through which to view our interactions. We hope today's episode sparks some fun insights for you and we invite you to dive deeper with our Episode Questions. And join us on Instagram or YouTube to continue the conversation and share your reflections.Let's dig deep, challenge paradigms, choose connection, and live joyfully!You can follow us on Instagram or YouTube. EPISODE QUESTIONSDownload a printable PDF of this week's questions here.Sign up here to receive each weekly PDF automatically in your email inbox.What does connection with another person feel like for you?What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? How might those overlap?How do you typically react when an attempt to connect with someone goes unexpectedly? Would that change if you framed it as learning something new about them?What bids for connection do you notice and are you responding in the way you'd like to?TRANSCRIPTPAM: Hello and welcome to the Living Joyfully Podcast. We are excited you found us, and are interested in exploring our relationships and who we are in them, out of them, and what that means for how we choose to move through the world. And in today's episode, we are going to talk about connection.So, connecting with another person on an emotional level creates a feeling of being in alignment with them, of understanding and appreciating each other in that moment. Regularly cultivating connection with someone builds a stronger and stronger relationship with them. You get to know and understand each other better. You come to anticipate their needs and they, yours.So, for me, how connected I'm feeling to another person is kind of a barometer of our relationship. If I'm feeling disconnected, I more purposefully seek out connecting moments with them. A connecting moment might be sharing an activity together, from watching a movie, going for a walk, playing a game, whatever feels good together.But the really important piece for it to be connecting is that the other person needs to enjoy it. This was something that I had to learn along the way. It's not particularly connecting for me to cajole my partner into going for a walk with me if they don't enjoy walks. They will likely spend a good chunk of that time looking forward to it being over, rather than enjoying each other's company. They will just have that in the back of their mind. "Have we walked long enough? Have we walked far enough? When's it time to turn back?"So, if I want to connect with someone, whether it be a partner, child, friend, it is helpful to suggest an activity that they enjoy. They will also feel seen and heard by that. "Oh, they know how much I love to go for a walk. Yay!" Or, "to play that game, yay!" etc. That will help them feel seen as the person they are by me, because connecting with another person really is about seeing and celebrating them for who they are, not who I wish they were. That is a subtle but very important difference.And in that space of enjoying an activity together, often we can both chat more freely and openly, learning more about what's up in each other's days, sharing what we've been enjoying, and what challenges we may be feeling. That is connecting with them. It doesn't need to be anything big, doesn't need to be anything special, but doing things together that we enjoy opens up that space for connecting and conversations and sharing little pieces of ourselves with each other.So, what does connection look like for you, Anna?ANNA: You know I'm excited to talk about connection! I keep connection as a lens for just about everything. I often ask myself, is what I'm about to say or do, going to enhance or harm my connection with this person? And if I'm honest about that and act from a place of choosing connection, conflicts are avoided. The lines of communication remain open. Because here's the thing. So, I'm choosing to be in relationship with this person. I love them. I want us to enjoy our time together, so I want to take ownership of who I am. I want to act from a place of being the person that I want to be. And for me, that person is kind and compassionate and extends unconditional regard to my loved ones.Do I fall short of that sometimes? Yes. Yes, I do.But if I keep connection as the lens, if I check in about my actions before acting, I can choose to be that person more and more. And it becomes easier and easier.The other thing about being connected that I want to talk about is that we're on the same team. I talk to a lot of couples who are approaching disagreements or meeting their needs as basically this zero-sum game. When, instead, we keep our connection at the forefront, we're able to approach problems and meeting each other's needs as a puzzle that we're solving together. We're on the same side.We can give each other that generous assumption, which is basically we love each other. We're in this together. We want to help each other feel seen and heard. We want each of our needs to be met. Coming from that place leaves a world of possibilities that we cannot see when we're tunneling in and defending our own needs without regard for the other in this oppositional, volleying back and forth, defend and receive.PAM: Exactly. Feeling connected with another person really does feel like we're on the same team. I love that. We are in alignment. We want to help each other get our needs met and work toward accomplishing our goals.For me, that feeling of being on the same team makes all the difference in our interactions, in our connection. Conflicts, or even just conversations, aren't that back and forth of offense and defense and winner and loser and how many times have they won and how many times have I lost, etc. It is just a team effort in creatively trying to meet everyone's needs and wishes and help each other along. That just feels so much better, too.ANNA: So much better.PAM: One thing I also wanted to mention is that sometimes our attempts at connection may not land with the other person. They may even go sideways, like, what the heck? That is totally okay. Like really, that's okay. It is not a failure. We don't need to take that personally, as an attack on us. Again, like offense/defense.In fact, same team, when you bring that lens, we can often use that to learn a bit more about them. Oh, what was it about that thing? Was it the activity that they weren't interested in? Were they busy with somebody or something that's important to them? Maybe they're stressed about something that's going on in their life, like a work issue. Something else has their focus. So, it doesn't need to be a rejection of us. It's like, oh, there's other things going on in our life. And we can really be so quick to take everything personally. I definitely know that I can, but when I can take that moment to remember, no, it doesn't need to be about me, per se. What else is going on? It is so interesting and so often, that's really the case. They're not trying to piss us off or trying to make us feel bad.None of that.ANNA: It's not about us at all usually.PAM: Exactly. Or in that moment, maybe we can learn a bit about ourselves or maybe both. Right? Maybe we put out-sized expectations on the other person. Maybe we didn't end up enjoying the activity and we're the one who's distracted instead of engaged in the moment. Maybe we were tired, like we just felt like we needed to do this thing and we pushed ourselves to try and connect with them, but in the end, it didn't turn out very well for us. Life happens. We learn from that experience and we try again.We are always learning. There is just so much about each other. When we're talking about relationships, there's so much to learn, because we are different in each moment. When we're tired, we're different in that moment. The things that we can do are different, the conversations that we can have, but being more open and honest about those moments, it is so helpful for relationships.And it also helps to be open to noticing when your partner or your child is trying to connect with you and try to be responsive in those moments.If we are stuck in our heads, it can feel like we're the only one prioritizing the relationship. We feel like we're the only ones inviting and inviting. But if we can notice, so often, we may not realize what it is at first, but when they invite us to join them, chances are they are looking to connect with us. And it may look very different than how we might want to connect with them, but a connection is just as valuable either way.And, in fact, it enhances relationship when the connections go both ways. There's a term that we toss around, we learned about last year or so, was it? Bids for connection. You want to talk about that a little bit more?ANNA: Yeah, I definitely want to touch on bids for connection. I think the idea comes from the Gottman Institute. The funny thing about them is they don't always look straight forward like, "Hey, I want to feel closer to you now." Sometimes it looks like picking a fight or a grumpy comment. Sometimes it looks like asking for something that we can do ourselves. "Hey, can you get me water, even though you have to walk in front of me to go get the water that I'm asking for?" Sometimes it looks like pulling away or getting quiet. And as we learn more about each other, we see the bids for what they are and the underlying need that they're trying to meet. And then we can check in and respond with kindness and that can open up the lines of communication and avoid a situation where people don't feel heard.Love languages can also play a role here. Knowing how we give and receive love can help make sure that what we're putting out is love is being received as such.But with the bids, like you said, it's so interesting, because we'll be in our heads about, I want to make this relationship better, and maybe that person's telling us a story from work and we're actually still in our head thinking, "We're not doing relationship things," or we're not doing the thing the way it looks in our head.But really, wanting to share that bit from work or the child wanting to share the bit about their game, that is the bid for connection. That is them wanting to bring us into their world. And so, for me, I just want to keep really open to that. I just want to be open, so that I'm seeing that in the people that are around me that I love, and that I'm acknowledging that and I'm responding.And yes, like you said earlier, sometimes we have capacity issues to deal with. Sometimes there just isn't enough, or the time is not right, or we're tired. But I find even in those situations, when I see the bid, I'm able to acknowledge the bid. Even if I can't dive in fully to maybe what they're needing for the, in that moment, it's so much better than brushing it off.PAM: Yes, when you can acknowledge it and be a bit transparent by saying, "Ah, that's wonderful. I love that. I can't wait to join you, or I can't wait to hear that story. I'm just really tired right now. Can we do it in the morning? Can we do it after I've had a nap? Or I'm just going to sit here and have a tea or a coffee for a few minutes," to acknowledge so that they feel seen and heard in that moment.And there was one other thing that came up. So, as we've been talking this whole time about connection, and you touched on this and I think it's super important, is the idea that we can have these visions in our head of what being in relationship means. And it can mean all sorts of fancy things in our head. We can have these visions of, we need to go out on a date every week, right? We need to go outside of the house, all these pieces. And the everyday connection doesn't count. But, truly, in the everyday connection, that is the foundation. Those are the connections that we're building.It doesn't mean we don't do the bigger things. It just means the relationship isn't on hold between the bigger things.ANNA: Exactly. And this is what we were talking about that I said in the first episode that we're going to keep repeating, it's that outside voice, because I think we come into it maybe from movies, whatever, that we had this idea of what relationships look like, but it really is the everyday of just sharing the ups and downs and getting the things done around the house and just moving through our days together that builds that foundation, that then we can do all these other fun things and big things. Because the reality is, the big fun things are going to be sprinkled throughout our year. But if that's what we're pinning our hopes on, that's not going to get us through. So, we have to figure out how to keep that connection alive and rich and wonderful in those everyday moments. And it is listening for those bids. It is being available.PAM: Yes. And just think for a moment, when you have that connection going throughout your days, your every days, you're already pretty well connected when those bigger moments come. And how much more fun are those when you're already connected, instead of thinking-ANNA: We're going to get it there!PAM: We have to go and relearn each other for our weekend away. Let's reconnect, finally.ANNA: Right. And isn't that why some of those things go awry? Sometimes, we have this idea like, we're going to have this amazing date, or we're going to take this amazing trip and then it ends up falling flat. But I think so much of that is because maybe we haven't been tending to those pieces in between, and so, we're pinning our hopes on this big time away or this big thing, and it falls a little bit short.So, yeah, I think that's super interesting to watch for and think about.PAM: Yes. Yes. Okay. So, I have some questions to share for people to ponder as they're exploring connections, alongside all the ones we've already talked about.So, what does connection with another person feel like for you?What are some ways you might connect with the people in your family? What do they love to do? What do you love to do? What do you love to do together? How can these different things overlap? It doesn't always need to be one thing. Sitting on the couch together or playing a game together, those are all perfectly wonderful ways to connect.How do you typically react when an attempt to connect, a bid for connection that we're putting out, goes unexpectedly? So, when you offer up, "Oh, let's sit down and have a coffee together, or a tea together," and they say no, how do you typically react? How does that feel? Would that change if you framed it as a learning something new about them? "Oh, I didn't know they were really into the thing they were doing. Oh, I didn't know that thing went strange at work today, and you're really worried about that," because those things going awry are actually opportunities to learn more.And then, again, let's think about the bits for connection coming the other way. Just keep an eye open for that over the next little while. I love what you said that the bids don't always look perfect. As in, "Let's do this together!" It can be, "Oh, my gosh, I had such a rough day at work. I want to vent about it." That is a bid for connection. That is some support another person is looking for. And we can learn more about their lives. It can be a child really frustrated about something that went wrong and what they're trying to do, and they come to you. That's a bid for connection, for some support in what they are looking to do. Maybe it's the infamous, "I'm bored," you know? They're just looking to chat with somebody for a while.There are so many possibilities when you just open up and start looking for what might potentially be bids for connections, opportunities for connection.ANNA: Absolutely.PAM: Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time. Bye.

Anna Spearman is the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Chad talks with Anna about founding and growing the company, immediately after graduating college, during a pandemic, reputation building, and facing skepticism around her lack of track record in recruiting, and finding and providing talent for clients as a white-glove service. Techie Staffing (https://techiestaffing.com/) Follow Techie Staffing on Twitter (https://twitter.com/StaffingTechie), Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/techiestaffing), Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/techiestaffing/) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/techie-staffing/). Follow Anna on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/annaspearman/). Follow thoughtbot on Twitter (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: CHAD: This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots Podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Chad Pytel. And with me today is Anna Spearman, the Founder of Techie Staffing, which connects high-quality technology talent with high-caliber clients. Anna, thanks so much for joining me. ANNA: Thank you so much for inviting me, Chad. CHAD: In theory, at the surface level, Techie Staffing is probably fairly straightforward in terms of what you do. But I'm curious how you got started. ANNA: Yes, of course. So I can't believe I'm saying this, but it's been two years. Two years ago, I was, during that time, attending the University of Virginia, where I was majoring in computer science with a minor in entrepreneurship. And in the spring of 2020, I was planning on coming back home to...I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and I was planning to come back home for spring break. And I was finishing out my second semester of senior year. So I was planning my [chuckles] victory lap of going back home, taking a little bit of a rest time, and then coming back to UVA to finish my degree, graduate, and move on to a new job in Los Angeles. But unfortunately, as my plane was landing in Los Angeles, we kept hearing about COVID. And so the pandemic hit in the middle of my spring break. And during that time, I had to finish my second semester of senior year remote. It was very stressful, but when I finished the degree, I was so fulfilled. But unfortunately, there was a rapid dwindling of entry-level tech and product roles. I initially either wanted to be a software engineer or a product manager or be a software engineer that transitioned into a technical product manager. But unfortunately, once the pandemic hit, companies weren't willing to ramp up entry-level talent. Companies didn't really know what was going to happen in the future, and everybody was remote. So it was just a really confusing time. But while I was searching through different job boards trying to find new opportunities, especially entry-level opportunities, I found just a wealth of senior tech jobs, specifically with companies that were thriving due to the pandemic. During that time, companies like Peloton, Discord, Zoom, they were all soaring due to the pandemic. So I had heard about contingent recruiting in the past. My biggest dream for a new opportunity for myself graduating out of college was just to learn something new every day because I've always had a very much an interdisciplinary background. I've never been able to stay in one area. I've always loved to try different things. So with a little bit of a background recruiting at a past summer internship as well as wanting to utilize my entrepreneurship minor...I'm actually a fourth-generation woman entrepreneur. So definitely, growing up, creating my own business was my dream. So really, that was my main goal. I thought I was going to transition from a current role into entrepreneurship, but I had my back against the wall. So I just thought, why not start now? So I created Techie Staffing, a technology staffing agency specializing in direct hire placements nationwide. I basically had my virtual graduation; then I took a week. And then, I got started creating the website, establishing the business paperwork, as well as developing strategic partnerships with senior technical recruiters that had full candidate pipelines to fill incoming job requisitions. And I basically started off with nothing. I had no contacts, no network, just nothing at all. And I was really starting just fresh. So I really had to really spend a lot of time networking and developing relationships as well as just learning and mastering full lifecycle recruiting, especially with engineering since there's such a supply and demand issue for software engineers. So you're just consistently following up and contacting people that could potentially be interested in your companies. But it really blew up. As I was establishing everything in 2020 from summer to the end of 2020, it was 2021 when it really blew up where I contacted this founder during the time they had raised a Series B 50 million, which was amazing, and they were going through a hiring sprint. So we got connected fairly quickly. And with just great team synergy, we were actually able to place five people in one month, and it was frontend, backend, and full-stack developers. So that really jump-started Techie Staffing. And then after that, we worked with...we're now working with Fortune 500 companies as well as high-growth startups and really building a diversified portfolio, and we're also a certified woman-owned business which I'm so proud of because there aren't really a lot of women or even just women of color that are founders. So I was really happy to get that certification, really proud of that as well. I always say all the time to everybody it's super stressful, but it's so rewarding at the same time. And I do believe that it's honestly, you know, I know the pandemic has been super hard on people. And it's been such a change and such a shift. But there is still a part of me that is so grateful for making that pivot because I really found something that I feel like I really enjoy doing every day. CHAD: That's great. I really commend you on everything you've done so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to do in the future. You now have grown where you're multiple people on your team. ANNA: Yeah, so we actually hired two new people fairly recently. I did have one direct hire recruiter working with me. So now it's officially a team of four. I did develop the strategic part. I do still have some strategic partnerships as well because on that part, at first, I was partnering with recruiters that were independent, so who were a little bit more entrepreneurial so that we could split the placement fee. But it's still better to just have full-time employees. I'm so excited to have two new additional hires, and it's still new for me. So I'm really looking forward to growing together in terms of growing Techie Staffing and growing into being a full life cycle recruiter because it wasn't that long ago when I was in that same exact spot. And it's so amazing. It still blows my mind to this day how two years ago, thinking about interviewing candidates or selling to clients, and now what I've evolved in. It's been absolutely amazing. So I'm so happy to see their journey and seeing them transition into being technical recruiters and also making a pivot in their career as well, which that's still blowing my mind a little bit. I'm sure you know founding thoughtbot and really building that from the ground up. So it's just amazing seeing that infrastructure. It just really brings a brighter future as well. CHAD: So what kind of people do you look for when you're looking to add to your team? Are you bringing on people who have experience with recruiting? Or are you bringing on people who are transitioning into it? ANNA: I would say for Q1 and Q2 of 2022 and even a little bit beforehand, since there was a surge in demand for everything and tech companies were just scaling like crazy, there was very much a competitive market for recruiters, specifically technical recruiters. Because that's what companies were really looking for to scale their engineering and product teams. So it was very, very competitive to recruit for a technical recruiter. So now you see agencies now who are hiring people who can have the DNA for a technical recruiter but not necessarily have direct experience, which I think can be really, really cool. Because like I said, like two years ago, I knew absolutely nothing, and now I feel very much confident in the full life cycle. So I think that's really cool to have people be able to pivot into a really cool industry where you're really learning something new every day, and you're speaking to really interesting people. We specialize in senior up until C-suite, so yeah, learning from people who are senior all the way up to Director, VP. So it's really interesting. So when I was approaching hiring, I really wanted to find someone who had that DNA that can potentially transition to being a technical recruiter. And that DNA would be, you know, it doesn't have to be personality but just really interacting with engineers, just maybe being a self-starter. I would say great communication, and lastly, I would say just really hungry. Yes, I would say hungry. Because if you're really hungry and you're really willing to learn and be open, so openness as well, then you can really understand the rules or just the lifecycle and the process of being a recruiter, and then you can change people's lives. I actually had one...It was about a year ago, I was working with a Fortune 500 company, and I recruited this guy, and I led him through the process. And it was about maybe a month later when he told me I had basically changed his life. Him and his family were now moving to Atlanta, and it was a new role, and it was just a fresh start. And he was just telling me how appreciative he was of me, and so that really hit home. So I think for those two new hires, I'm so excited to have them get super engaged and be able to change other people's lives as well under the Techie Staffing name, of course. CHAD: You mentioned early on that you're contingent recruiting. So correct me if I'm wrong, but that means that you get paid when you place somebody, when someone gets hired from the company that hires them. ANNA: Yes. CHAD: But then you also mentioned that these people who you're bringing onto your team are full-time. So how does the compensation structure typically work for them? ANNA: Oh, compensation, we have them on salary, but they do have commission. So we wanted to really give; like I said, I want us to grow together. So I do provide commission for each placement they'll place just to really provide incentive. Like I said, it's so early. I want us to think of each other just as teammates and a team because we're all building towards the same goal. So just really wanted to provide incentives where they're really feeling like they're almost owning it full life cycle as well. Because like I said, it's early on, and these can be really strong pillars in the future. So there is salary, but there's also that commission as well to just really provide that incentive. And I know for me personally, incentive can be awesome, so definitely trying to provide that motivation and having them really feel like they're an integral part. CHAD: What's the harder part of your business? Or are they equally hard, finding new clients versus finding people who want to work with you on the candidate side? ANNA: On the business development side, I would say it was harder perhaps in the beginning because I just so was starting with nothing, really. I had just graduated from college. And a lot of agency owners they previously have maybe worked at a really cool tech startup, or maybe they've been working on their agencies for the past 5 or 10 years. They have previous years of experience, but I didn't have that. So I had to convey another method of just really networking, really meeting people, and just really knowing my stuff and having a handle on it. I know maybe a lot of people say, like, just fake it until you make it because then once you make it, and then you get that experience, then you can transfer that experience to new experiences as well. So at first, it was really just building myself up and building the Techie Staffing brand so that we could acquire those clients. In terms of the candidate side, I would say Techie Staffing, and one of the things and part of our brand that we love to portray is that we are the agency that has the companies with the best employer branding. Because like I said, with the supply and demand issue for the software engineers, it is so competitive to attract them to new opportunities. There are just so many companies that are contacting them multiple times a day. So there has to be at least a little bit of a shine or a little bit of a differentiator for companies that you're recruiting for. So we actually specialize in companies that are Series B and above that do have that established employer branding where engineers are really interested in joining that company, so that's just the thing. It's like really having companies that have strong employer branding and being able to follow up. Follow-ups are really, really important when it comes to engaging engineers because, like I said, it's just a super competitive market and just trying to provide them a great white-glove experience. There are some agencies that fall a little bit too close to the client-side where the client is always right. And there are some that fall too much to the candidate side where the candidate is right, but we really want to be a balanced middleman where we're just trying to find the compromise and find the best solution for everybody. So that's the real important part of it of just really providing them with a great experience and showing them that we care and that we're rooting for them. Because it sometimes does surprise me when candidates can be a little...maybe this is a part of me being new. But that's kind of an advantage, too, because I'm still paying attention to detail. That's where my computer science major comes in. It's like constantly trying to stay in tune with candidates and what they need, so just trying to provide a great experience in general. And I'm sure you feel that way with your clients. You're a consultancy as well where you're trying to be B2B and contact these different companies. So how do you conduct business development and really differentiate yourself? CHAD: We focused a lot on reputation building, so blogging, creating open source so that we don't need, fortunately, to cold contact people. And when we do, we're fortunate enough that they might already know about us. And so it's an easier conversation to have because they may already be reading our blog, or they may already be using some of our open source in their product. And so it becomes an easier conversation to have. But the majority of our clients actually come to us when they have a need because we're fortunate enough to have worked to be at the top of the list. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And I'm still doing that, just reputation building. With one of our Fortune 500, we're doing incredibly well with them to the point where we're filling their pipelines, and we have majority of our candidates in their pipeline. So that's what we're really working on right now is just consistently...and I know like with any business, you have to just constantly build that reputation. So I especially just try to provide a great experience for candidates because they can also be hiring managers as well, so just really providing that white-glove experience. And also, a cool differentiator we always like to showcase is like, I'm a computer science major. And actually, the two people that I just hired have a tech background. So it's not like tech is entirely foreign to us. We've engaged with programming languages. We've coded projects. So we do have some form of understanding when it comes to certain technologies or certain projects that certain engineers are working on. And that's what really gets me excited to speak with engineers because it's so cool and interesting hearing about them working on their projects and working on projects that directly affect me and the products that I'm interacting with. So it's so cool to hear about their...I can understand a bit. And so that's another thing we have with Techie Staffing is really finding people who have a bit of a tech background so at least they have a little bit of knowledge or an understanding of what projects and can be able to really share and convey that to clients that are looking for this talent. CHAD: You mentioned it's a really competitive market now. And as a company who probably has multiple clients, how do you minimize or how do you deal with the potential competition for the limited supply among your own clients? ANNA: Among my own clients, I will say that right now we don't have...for the roles that we're working on for each client, they're not very similar or too, too similar, which is a good thing. We would like it in the future where we could have the same role, but we can understand how that can be a little tricky as well. CHAD: And how do they differ then? Are they differing by the technology experience that they're looking for or the sort of level of the role? How are they different? ANNA: It could be technology, difference of the role. So, for example, for a Fortune 500 company that we're working with, we'll work more with UX, data science, data science roles, as well as...so UX, data science. And then for high-growth startups, mostly with them, they're really looking for back-end engineers, but overall just engineering so frontend, backend, DevOps. We are working potentially to do engineering or more engineering-heavy for our Fortune 500 companies. We have recently been working on a VP of engineering. So for Fortune 500 for now, we've been working more with leadership roles especially, and for high-growth, it's been more engineering IC. But we would like to transition that in the future to have it kind of...or have roles that maybe some candidates could go to this company, and some candidates can go to that startup. And then another differentiator could be or what makes our clientele different from each other is for high-growth startups, especially for engineering ICs, they're really looking for candidates that come from high-growth startups who just understand the current company where they are, and how they're scaling during that period of time around that series B and series C. That's the time to really scale. And Fortune 500 companies they can be open to startups, but for the most part, especially sometimes for leaders who need to have a certain amount of direct reports, they're more looking for people from larger companies. So that would be one way to kind of separate it and so we're not having candidates almost be where they have to compete with candidates within our own company. Because with the difference in the leveling of companies, there's just a difference in what kind of candidates that they're looking for. Mid-Roll Ad: Are your engineers spending too much time on DevOps and maintenance issues when you need them on new features? We know maintaining your own servers can be costly and that it's easy for spending creep to sneak in when your team isn't looking. By delegating server management, maintenance, and security to thoughtbot and our network of service partners, you can get 24x7 support from our team of experts, all for less than the cost of one in-house engineer. Save time and money with our DevOps and Maintenance service. Find out more at: url tbot.io/devops CHAD: When I was first starting thoughtbot, I really felt like I needed to take every client that we could get because we were just starting out. We needed to make money. We needed to build a reputation. And so, I felt like we needed to say yes to every client. Over the years, I learned that that was actually watering us down, and it made us less successful. And the more we were clear about who we were, and what we did, and what clients we were best for, the more successful we were. Have you gotten to the point where you needed to turn down clients? ANNA: Because I do such targeted biz dev, we will contact companies that we personally want to work with. But I will say in the beginning, there were some companies that were a lot smaller that, just like you said, you just felt the need to want to rack up a client list. And you just are ready to go and wanting to work with someone. It really motivated me to really take a look and really go deep into the type of clients that we want. So, for example, really, really early-stage companies can have a really, really hard time hiring because, like I said, employer branding is so, so important. And so usually what they'll have is maybe like mission, but they won't really have salary. Or they won't really have the employer branding of the company of candidates either knowing about the company or being able to search the company really quickly and seeing the platform that the company is building and seeing how strong it is. So it's really, really hard to recruit for those stages. I mean, it is possible, but it's just really hard. And then at the same time for these early-stage companies, they really want to, which I totally understand, you know, when you're having your probably 8th, 9th, or 10th engineer and being on the founding team, you really want a strong engineer because that's your platform, that's your baby. You don't want anybody that, you know, it could potentially maybe cause problems, or they really want somebody there they can trust. And so it's hard, you know like I said -- CHAD: But they might not be able to afford that. [laughs] ANNA: Yes, they might either not be able to afford it, or they also cannot interview fast enough in order to just get the offer in their hands. Because I understand they really want to have them speak to the entire team and have them have an in-depth process because it's very much an important role. But these candidates and startups are moving so fast right now where I will speak to a candidate one day, and he or she or they'll probably say, "Oh, you know, I'm passively looking. I'm not really actively looking." And maybe a week and a half to two weeks later, they're like, "Oh, I actually have two offers in hand." So it goes really, really fast versus earlier stage; it can just go a little bit slower because they're just really taking the time to go more in-depth and see if this prospective candidate is the right fit, which is totally understandable. But it was just really hard for us as contingent trying to find that candidate, that perfect candidate for them as well as trying to keep candidates warm and keep them interested when some companies just have like mission. So now, in the future, I've just really, like I said, Techie Staffing, we specialize from Series B and above. And I really just make sure during business development exploratory chats that I'm really going in-depth and making sure I understand the roles that they're prioritizing their time to hire. So if they have a long, long interview process and a really, really low salary in terms of the competitive market, then I may not be as interested in that startup as opposed to another startup whose interview process timeline could be about a week and a half to two weeks. And it doesn't have to be absolutely amazingly competitive base salary but just a fairly competitive salary with a great timeline for time to hire. So that's been my way of just condensing or just being a little bit more pickier in terms of clients in the future. Were there any certain clients for you where you started working with them, and you were like, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't have," that's now caused you to be a little bit more pickier for clients in the future? CHAD: Part of it was the kind of work. So we really wanted to be writing software. But just starting out, I also had a background in sort of IT support. And so, when I was reaching out, particularly to past clients, they might say, "You built our website. Now can you help us with purchasing a computer or setting up a computer network in our office?" I felt compelled to say, "Yes," because I felt like we needed all the work we could get. But by doing that work that wasn't really what we wanted to be doing, we were not only less happy in our work, but it was taking time and attention away from the work that we really wanted to be doing. The other was values and practices, which took a little bit longer to form a real understanding of what our values were and the practices that we believe in. But now there's a pretty clear list of the kinds of companies that...what we say at thoughtbot is that we want to work on things that deserve to exist in the world. And so there's a whole bunch of industries that they might not even be actively doing harm in the world, but they are the ones that we wouldn't work in. But even if it's just not a positive contribution to the world, it's probably not going to be something that we're excited to work on. ANNA: That's been an exciting trend, actually, to speak with engineers about. I've started seeing that trend where engineers are saying, "I don't want to create anything evil," or "I just want to do good." And that's been a really awesome selling point for some teams. It definitely is a cherry on top where engineers are really looking for social impact. And the cool part is they have so many opportunities that are coming towards them that they can really pick and choose which one. So to find people who are really looking for social good and just really mission-driven products is amazing to see. And I'm really happy with the work...I'm actually working with a data science team for AI ethics. And that's been really interesting hearing some people talk about their projects and hearing about how data can really not only just strengthen bias but also can just really produce results that can harm certain groups of people, which is so interesting. And it can be something so, so small that I haven't even noticed at all, but that can lead to a big difference. CHAD: Yeah, we've had several episodes about that. ANNA: And it's amazing. And it really is just a huge difference with something so small. And as a woman of color, I'm always aware of what's going on in terms of just ethical practices or just fairness and seeing bias. But in terms of data, seeing something so so small can affect just a whole group of underrepresented people is just amazing to see. But it's also amazing that people or data scientists are now aware of it, and now they're changing it so that it no longer...at least they'll be able to alleviate that bias. CHAD: I want to ask a little bit more about that, and then I want to talk about some market trends. But if you're comfortable, I'm curious; you already mentioned you were just out of college when you were getting started. So there was skepticism around your lack of track record in recruiting. And you've mentioned that you are a woman of color. And so I think as engineers, as people in the market, we probably have this image in our head of what a typical recruiter looks like in terms of attitude, and values, and demographics. And you don't fit that mold in almost any way, basically. Is this actually a positive for you now, or is it actually still hard? Are there companies that are actively seeking out to work with you because they want that different approach? Or are you still facing that skepticism? ANNA: I'm still facing that skepticism. I actually created Techie Staffing around the time of summer 2020, where Black Lives Matter, where George Floyd happened. And it was really interesting because I was entering the corporate workplace. I went to a really wealthy private school in Los Angeles. And I went to the University of Virginia. So I survived two PWIs which means predominantly White institutions. So I thought I had not seen it all, but I thought I had maybe experienced those experiences of bias and understood it a little bit more. But when I went to the corporate workplace and the diversity inclusion campaigns were happening, it was just really confusing because it's hard specifically for engineering and product specifically because it's so new that there is a really, really hard time to find diverse talent. That's why I honestly believe that it's just really trying to educate underrepresented communities to understanding all of the different diverse types of roles and opportunities that you can encounter in the tech industry so, for example, like UX, UX design, UX research, data science, machine learning, all of that. So I think I was more contacted or maybe was engaged in business development companies who were looking for me to do diversity which I think it kind of...and I am such a huge proponent for diversity. But it also kind of had my heart drop a little bit because I just felt like people were contacting me because of who I am instead of just thinking like if it was just any other agency, would I be contacted specifically for that? It was more just for exclusive searches, which can be very, very hard for products and engineering. I think in diversity and inclusion, we really need to focus on different departments and the different problems that underrepresented communities encounter with different departments. So it was just really hard, but in terms of companies contacting me because I am a woman of color owning an agency, no, that didn't really...and it's never really helped. I do wear it as a badge of honor because, like I said, I started out with nothing. So to start out with nothing and have to fight through everything to sit at the table and create something is amazing. My background didn't really help me. It was really just me, just constantly contacting people. And I was prepared for this because, in my entrepreneurship minor, they said, "You're going to encounter a lot of nos," and so I did. I encountered so many nos, but eventually, I was able to turn those nos into yeses. So now that I turned some of those nos into yeses...and I'm still encountering nos, but I still keep going and still building and building. And now I do feel a sense of pride now two years later where it is like, wow, I really did have to fight through to make it, and that's where I hold just a huge sense of pride. But no, it was not my background that really...the only thing that my background was maybe appealing was thinking like, oh, okay, I think you can do diversity and inclusion, which I don't want to be profiled in that way. I just want to be a founder who happens to be a Black woman instead of a Black woman founder. And so, I don't want to be contacted to feel like my race is a part of it. And that was interesting in the corporate workplace, especially when I was trying to navigate different, you know, how to speak, how to build rapport, or how to navigate corporate workplace conversations. And that's very hard to do with diversity and inclusion because you're fighting with, like, that's racism and misogyny. That's something really deep-rooted, and that has been here for years and years. So it's a really heavy, heavy topic. And that's not some really, really heavy topic that you really want to bring or a lot of people don't really want to bring into the workplace. So that was just hard to encounter. But overall, I so, so support diversity and inclusion. And the cool part is because I have this awareness and I know that diverse teams are better teams, whenever I'm sourcing, or one of my recruiters is sourcing, I'm just making sure that they have that in the front of their mind, and they're just trying to diversify their candidate pipeline as much as possible. CHAD: Well, taking it from the candidate side of things, I, unfortunately, I'm of the belief that the hiring process is really ripe for extreme, subtle unconscious biases or conscious ones even to have an impact on the hiring process. So, how have you navigated that on the candidate side? I'm sure you don't want to say anything negative about any of your clients. It's not about, oh, this company is racist. But I think do you agree with the premise that the hiring process at a lot of companies is ripe for some bias to creep in? ANNA: Of course. I mean, all of the time. And the part that's so, I would say, scary about it is that bias is something that you feel. It's not really tangible. You can't really grab it. I mean, it can be in writing, and [laughs] there has been stuff in writing. But it's very much kind of yeah; it's non-tangible. So it's hard to really call it out specifically of like, hmm, this candidate I don't know why all of a sudden nice to haves become must-haves. Why is there a shift? Like I said, there are different problems with different departments, but there are also different problems in terms of leveling systems, so leadership roles versus individual contributor roles. There can be a little bit more, you know, maybe there's a little bit more openness on the IC side, but with leadership, it can get a little interesting sometimes. But the hard part is it's not really tangible. So I really have to give it to diversity like DEI specialists because to have to navigate those conversations and really articulate a non-tangible thing is so, so complicated. So there are tangible things you can do, like having a diverse panel. But what happens if the company doesn't even have the numbers for diversity to have that diverse panel in the first place? So it can get really complicated in terms of trying to navigate the bias within the interview process, and we do try to do our best there, just trying to provide on our side because that's all we can do. It's really up to the companies in terms of their interview processes and how they are going to change it or maintain some stages. But for us, we're just trying to just submit diverse talent and really just try to provide that white-glove service for them and hope that that bias doesn't seep in. But like I said, it's such a heavy topic. And like I said, with corporate workplace politics, it can be so fragile and really interesting. So it's just hard to really take that and understand where it comes from or being able to even verbalize it. So that's where it gets really interesting. And so, I do hope that in the future, interview processes are changed where there is able to be a diverse panel, or there is a way to really be able to understand that bias. Because like I said, it's very complicated. And we don't want to claim that any company is specifically racist, but it's just understanding bias and maybe why there's a difference for one candidate versus another candidate, which can be really interesting. CHAD: I think the first part is recognizing that everybody has biases, and it could be anything. It could be, well, what happens when you come across a resume of someone that went to the same school that you did? What happens to that resume, then? And does that subtly influence how you review that resume? It has nothing to do with their race or the color of their skin or anything. So those biases can creep in, and you need to decide as a company is this something that actually matters to success at the company? Is this something that we want to be using when we make hiring decisions about who gets that first interview or who continues on in the interview process? For us, we've decided it's not, so we have a completely anonymous screening process where we don't even show the names of schools. We don't show the names of the companies that you worked at previously. We only show the positions that you held at those companies because we've decided that whether you have a degree or not doesn't matter, and the companies that you worked at previously don't matter. It's what you were actually able to do with that experience. ANNA: Oh yeah. I think that's actually amazing. That's a really great way of doing it. I always just try to tell hiring managers also to just open that candidate pipeline as much as possible because the number one way to really understand someone isn't really through just a piece of paper. Yes, we want to make sure that the resume is at least a bit aligned. And they have, if it's an engineering role, for example, the right tech stack or maybe the right technologies or the right kind of projects that they've worked on. But other than that, you'll be so amazed what can happen when people just hop on a call with each other. You can really find just that hidden genius in people. So usually, when it comes to just diversity, it's like just hopping on a quick call with someone, anybody. Like you said, there are so many biases, but just being able to talk to them and see them as a human being can really just surprise you and surprise everybody. So really just, I always say just find that hidden genius through engaging with someone. CHAD: Yeah. So you've mentioned time to hire is a really important thing moving quickly in today's market when candidates have a lot of opportunity. What are some other ways, either trends or things that are happening in the market or things that you see changing? ANNA: Well, honey, I'm sure, as you know, there's been a huge amount of layoffs that have happened. Like, recently, about 17,000 workers were laid off from more than 70 tech startups globally in May, and that's been about a 350% jump from April. So I will say it's just due to inflation as well as just the slowing of demand. Startups right now are just really trying to just cut corners and just really trying to just hone in on their runway and their burn rate. CHAD: Are the candidates that are being laid off finding new work quickly? ANNA: I'm not sure because it depends on the departments. We're working with engineering mostly in product. So it's really funny because as we are tracking the layoffs, we will contact candidates to see if they're interested in another opportunity. Because fortunately, for our client list, we haven't had anyone have a massive amount of layoffs which has been...we're so happy about that, fortunately. But we've actually contacted engineers. And it's amazing how strong the engineering department is. It does not seem like they really are...that's not a department where there's like significant layoffs because they just have to uphold that platform. So yeah, so it still is in terms of engineering surprising with all these layoffs. It still is just very much competitive because even the people who have or the companies that have encountered a large amount of layoffs those engineers are still wanting to stay or don't...there are some that may feel the need to depart at a certain point. But for the most part, they are staying. But in terms of how quickly, I'm not entirely sure in terms of for people that are laid off how quickly they are being hired because this is also within early-stage startups or not early-stage; they also have Fortune 500s too. But yeah, I'm not sure about that part. But in terms of engineering specifically, the jobs are still just growing. The projected growth rate for software engineers is like 22%, and data scientists is 22%, as well as web developers is 13%. So fortunately for us, as an agency who primarily specializes in engineering, there hasn't been a huge difference. But like I said, specifically with engineering, that time to hire is still super important because these candidates are still encountering offers quickly. And it's just a way to be competitive because if you're just the first offer, you're the first offer in their face instead of, let's say, they have two offers from another company and you're like at the last offer. It's such a big difference there. CHAD: Are you seeing a lot of remote positions versus in-person positions? ANNA: Yes, remote is still going strong. I have seen that now there is a little bit of a trend of some startups or companies where you know because I research companies every day...I'll go on Crunchbase, Morning Brew, VentureBeat, TechCrunch, Built-In. I'll go on all of the websites, and I'm seeing who got a fresh new round of funding or who's highly growing, or any new products that companies are offering. CHAD: You're seeing some companies say that they're hiring hybrid or in person. ANNA: I am seeing that on startups and companies' career pages, once they've acquired a new round of funding or they're scaling, that on the job boards, you'll start seeing only the headquarters, so just San Francisco or just maybe Boston instead of remote. So it's been a little bit more of a quiet transition because I remember when bigger companies were announcing it like, oh, we're going to transition in the office in February of 2022 or December of 2021, then there would all of a sudden be a mass exodus of people who were seeking remote opportunities. But I do still feel that remote is still going strong, especially for high-growth startups, you know, yeah, still going strong. There is the option of hybrid. With these engineers that do have these choices, 100% remote is really becoming a great selling point. I mean, I don't even know if it's really a selling point but just standard now. CHAD: So that's what you're hearing from candidates. Candidates want that. ANNA: Definitely, candidates want. There's been plenty of candidates that we've interviewed where they've said in terms of their...because we'll ask them what would be their motivation for considering other opportunities and potentially leaving, and then they'll say, "X company is anticipating us to transition into the office, and I just don't want to do that." Their commute may be an hour, and that can be two even maybe three hours out of your day where you're spending your morning driving and then spending your evening driving. So people just prefer to be remote. Or people are located now in the Midwest. They're going back to their hometowns where they're able to instead of like these big metropolitan cities where now it's really hard to afford a house, so they're going back home and being able to enjoy their family there. So definitely it is a standard and people are really interested in it. And for companies that are having employees transition back into the office, we've consistently heard that there's just a mass exodus of people leaving. CHAD: What have you seen compensation do over the last year-plus? ANNA: I would say for compensation, I mean, in my personal opinion, when it was super competitive, it was definitely increasing. Now I feel like we're working with a Fortune 500 company, so compensation hasn't really been too, too much of a problem. So yeah, it hasn't been as competitive. But I do remember when it was maybe around Q1 and Q2 2021 where there was almost this great rehire. And everybody was scaling, and demand was soaring where the salaries were just like, it just increased or were just consistently increasing. We were just so shocked at what some software engineers were making. But now, it seems to have potentially tamed a little bit. It's not as high as it probably used to be because we were working with that series B Company and their salaries were pretty good, pretty competitive. But all of a sudden, with the demand soaring and these engineers, it started getting even more competitive. Then that's when all of a sudden, you know, the first few placements were fine. And then, all of a sudden, each candidate, like I said, they would say they were passively looking and then the next week... And this startup their time to hire was actually really great. But even with this competitive market, it was still hard because, like I said, a week later, they would already have an offer. And their salary would probably increase like 20,000-30,000 from their initial target base that they were seeking to now what they were being hired from other companies. So it would definitely increase. But I haven't seen that recently as much. CHAD: Yeah. I think also the trend to remote changed compensation, too, because it leveled it out. There were people who if you were trying to find a job in Kansas and you were going in an office, that market is very different than the U.S.-wide hiring market. But now, candidates are on the U.S.-wide hiring market. And I think that that brought up the lower end of salaries. ANNA: Oh yes. Because at first, it was like okay, we can look for...it was 100% remote, which was great, and so they were like, we can look for people in the Midwest. But during that time, companies were paying San Francisco and New York salaries, and they were offering those salaries to people who were located in Kansas and Iowa. So you would have engineers who were deep, deep in the Midwest who were asking for in terms of target for those metropolitan city salary budgets. And they would get it, which I think is great as well, just they are doing the same work as someone who is located in San Francisco or in New York but maybe with less overhead, of course. But it definitely was a little bit more of a challenge. And you can no longer assume that somebody located in the Midwest that may have lower salary bands aren't at those metropolitan city salary budgets now. CHAD: Anna, thanks much for stopping by and sharing with us. I really I'm impressed by what you've accomplished so far. And I'm excited about what you're going to be able to do in the future. ANNA: Thank you. Thank you so much, again, for inviting me. I had a great time speaking with you, and it was so interesting hearing about your time being a consultancy. Because I know being an external vendor, it's really interesting interacting with clients when you're not internal. So that was really interesting hearing about the difference of clients that you're encountering at first versus now. CHAD: Yeah. If folks want to get in touch with Techie Staffing or get in touch with you, where are the best places for them to do that? ANNA: So in terms of contacting me, I'll say the best way would be either our website so www.techiestaffing.com. Or you can contact me on LinkedIn; my name is Anna Spearman, A-N-N-A S-P-E-A-R-M-A-N. I'm always active on LinkedIn. So if you're seeking a new opportunity either on the candidate side or either meeting, help and engaging Techie Staffing as a scaling company to fill your engineering, design, UX, and product roles, you can contact me on LinkedIn as well as filling out the forms on the Techie Staffing website. And we also are on Twitter @StaffingTechie. So definitely contact us, and we'd be happy to hear from you. CHAD: Wonderful. You can subscribe to the show and find notes and a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter at @cpytel. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks so much for listening, and see you next time. ANNOUNCER: This podcast was brought to you by thoughtbot. thoughtbot is your expert design and development partner. Let's make your product and team a success. Special Guest: Anna Spearman.

INTRODUCTION: Anna, pronouns anything respectful, is a Chicago-born social entrepreneur who builds streaming platforms which center & celebrate BIPOC & QTPOC creatives. Media has always been her passion and in 2009 she turned that passion into a reality when she founded E3 Radio, an online radio station playing Queer music & reporting on Queer news with an intersectional lens. Most recently, she founded The Qube, a curated app of music & podcasts by BIPOC & QTPOC creatives. Anna is determined to ride media into its next era by utilizing digital media streams to tell the stories and play the music that deserves to be heard.  Learn more about her work here. In no particular order I'm also a daughter, wife, sister, and friend who loves cooking and running. Favorite Quote: “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” –Gandhi Did you know? Anna has been in love with Robin Roberts all her life. Interviewing her would be the ultimate experience. Media Coverage ABC 7 Pride Coveragehttps://abc7.ws/3BGSAZz  Choose Your Struggle https://open.spotify.com/episode/5VaUCZRfUCxUNzdfmAibuV?si=Wqu7M0knQmWZYyJ_Ahmleg&nd=1 191: Learn How To Do Queer Radio Right with Anna DeShawn, Founder of E3 Radiohttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/191-learn-how-to-do-queer-radio-right-anna-deshawn/id1189319336?i=1000521261587  Trindi Media Podcasthttps://podcasts.bcast.fm/e/mn4wvyq8 Park Careers Podcasthttps://anchor.fm/icparkcareerspodcast/episodes/Episode-9--Anna-DeShawn-IC07-e10l4bp/a-a5haqne   INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to): ·      Exposure To The Qube App·      Celebration Of BIPOC & QTPOC Creatives·      Why It's Good To Be Complete BEFORE You Enter A Relationship·      Why Mental Health Therapy Is SOOO Damn Good For You·      The Variety Of Mental Health Options Available To You·       A Warning Against Being Addicted To Church·      A Warning About Biblical Interpretation·      Politics & Religion = YUCK!·      Why Being Non – Straight Is Not A Damn Choice! CONNECT WITH ANNA: Website & Radio: https://www.AnnaDeShawn.comTikTok: https://tiktok.com/@annadeshawn Facebook: https://facebook.com/annadeshawnInstagram: https://instagram.com/annadeshawn  Twitter: https://twitter.com/annadeshawn  E3 Radio: https://e3radio.fmThe Qube: https://theqube.app   ANNA'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      EyeWear: https://thekayakollection.com·      VDOM: https://thevdom.com/the-vdom/ CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com  DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS: ·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org  INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?: ·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon  TRANSCRIPT: [00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: What's up. What's up. What's up everyone. I'm so happy to have you with me again. One more week. I hope everyone is fucking fantastic. Happy Cinco de Mayo. Today we have a spotlight on black indigenous people of color and queer trans people of color as well. Anna de Shawn has created the cube app, which is a safe space for creative people of color of various ideas.We dish on religion, sex [00:01:00] self-acceptance mental health and so much more. And I throw some shade at Lakewood church over in Houston, Texas, because of the way they dehumanize people behind the scenes. Take a listen to my people.Anna. Good girl, girl. How the fuck is you doing the day? That's what I need to know. Anna: I'm amazing that I'm here with you period. De'Vannon: Looking at you, trying to gain me up, see energy. Like that is the reason why sometimes contemplate letting a lesbian fuck me in the ass because y'all have got that. Yeah. The game was on point.The words on point y'all is I am a survivor. I'm like, oh, almost y'all I'm just like Emile come in there. And I'm like a good low to come in my ass. Okay. Anna: We don't get that. We don't got that. We got a lot of other things, but we got a lot of other. De'Vannon: Although they [00:02:00] have those buildings. Now you can put something like different juices or whatever in them, and then it'll squirt it into whatever hole you want.So Anna: mommy, my homemade is actually creating this really amazing strap. It's her, her business is called V Dom. Y'all should check it out. V D O M she was on television recently for a pitch competition. Like it's like mechanical, so it's not hard all the time. So you hit a button, it gets hard on the, on the whim.It's like from an app. So you don't gotta go. And like, yo it's legit stuff. It's good De'Vannon: stuff. So it's a Dick, a plastic Dick that get, that can give, go from levels of softness to hard, Anna: but the press of a button. De'Vannon: I ain't seen that before. Hmm. Next level I found real. It, it okay. Also Anna de Shawn is a bad bitch.She. It's the [00:03:00] greater of an app called the cube. She hosts the radio station and everything like that. And she considered herself to also be a social entrepreneur as an initial. We're going to be talking about what the cube is, how this benefits the LGBTQ plus community, the alphabet mafia, as I like to call us, because we will fuck a bitch up if we have to, we don't want to, but sometimes y'all just make us pull the will Smith on a bitch and just Anna: necessary.Okay. Sometimes it's necessary.De'Vannon: I don't think he should have done it, but I'm not here to judge him. I feel suck his Dick right now and buy tickets to his movie. But I, we, we, we will not be slapping everybody on Smith. Anna: I don't know what he was thinking. I think actually, I think he thought it was recorded. I think he forgot. It was like. I mean, there's so De'Vannon: many of them things, it's just like he's sitting at his [00:04:00] kitchen table.Anna: I think he forgot it was left. I think he thought they were going to be able to enter that up. De'Vannon: So we'll be talking about what the cube is. It's a new thing specific for our community and people of color and things like that to help help us with podcasts and getting our creative arts and media out there.And then we're going to talk about Anna's history. She has a lot of history with the church and church Bo shit, and there's so much bullshit and the church is unreal. And so what do you got to say about your own history? Tell us about you got the run Anna: down to the quick rundown, quick rundown south side of Chicago, born and raised.I consider myself a social entrepreneur who. Platforms digital platforms that celebrate and center black, brown and queer folks of color. I, I love my [00:05:00] people and I love the power that media has to actually create some change, some meaningful change to humanize people's stories and experiences. And I think that we have the power to shift that, you know, if we tap into it and since 2009, I've been interviewing black queer folks to raise awareness around our stories out of Chicago.And I've always been into media. Let's be clear, Robin Roberts is everything to me. Okay. I want it to grow up and be just like her on ESPN or doing some play by play announcing. But it became very clear that people don't look like me on television. They're not masculine the center. Prokes a report in the 10 o'clock news.Okay. But radio allowed for me to speak to folks without folks having to see me. And that is a very powerful thing. And I realized I really loved it. So I got into radio. Which of course leads you into podcasting. And then I just saw the same things that were happening in traditional media. What's happening in podcasts.I'm like, where are my black people at? Where am I brown people at? Where am I queer [00:06:00]folks of color at? Like, why is it that when I go to apple and Spotify and all these places, like I can't find my people and I wanted to change that. De'Vannon: Well, it is a noteworthy thing you're doing. And I can tell you have sense enough to understand that this is something that's takes time.You know, this is, this is a long-term dedicated process. Does it? Don't take, you know, a long, long time to, to see, come to fruition. Hopefully you see it in your generation, but you know, you know, these things take time. So I appreciate that. You're laying this foundation here, you know, for generations to come, you know, I can see it in a, in a hundred years, you know, you know, when you did that and gone somebody is going to have a very successful.Show you know, public broadcast and everything like that. You gonna be like, we want to thank him to Sean for the work that we did back in 2009 to make this day [00:07:00] possible for me in 3050 or whatever the Anna: case. That's unbelievable. Let me tell you. But I do say this, that I do see the radio station and what we're building with the cube as being far bigger than myself, I feel like, and I think we connect can connect on this on a spiritual level.Like we're here because we're called to do something. And when I think when you tap into your call, it is bigger than you because you're just a vessel for the work and you've been given some gifts and you, and you've been called to use them. And so I feel like I'm called to use these gifts in this way.Everything about me says I'm about systematic changes about changes that can affect masses amount of people. That's what I'm called to do. Some folks is called to be in the streets activating, you know, some folks has called to do one-on-one work and change people's lives one by one by one. And I feel like I've been called to change folks' lives through media and a massive amount of [00:08:00] ways.And so I'm excited about what the cube is going to be to the world of podcasting. I'm excited what it's going to be for discoverability. Today 43% of people listening to podcasts actually identify as people of color and there's no place that is serving those folks. And the discoverability of those folks.There's so many people like you creating amazing content, raw content, authentic content, quality content, and more people need to know, you know what I'm saying about sex drugs and Jesus. Come on. De'Vannon: Okay. We don't want to go down that rabbit hole is a tight, deep hole and trust me may have gotten stuck in it.Anna: I love you. De'Vannon: So I love you too, baby. So one of my favorite things about you. So we're going to talk about Anna for a little bit and get into her personal story, which tells us a lot about why she's doing what she's doing. And then we're going to get very granular and talk very specifically about what the cube [00:09:00] is, where you can find it.Who's who was this for a podcast. As people want to go on shows what sort of content you can find there and all of that. So when I was reading through your bio and everything like that, and researching you as I do, I found that your pronouns, you don't have like, he, she, they. You know, whatever you said, anything respectful.And I admire the open-mindedness of that and the flexibility of that, it reminds me a lot of myself because when people ask me who I am, sometimes I like to refer them to the Torah, you know, to the, to the oh, Hebrew scripture when when Moses was first called by God. And he had his slippers off on the side of the mountain and God was in the burning Bush.And Moses was like, God, who is you? Who are you? He was trying to put God in a box and figure out how shall I, what can, what can, how can I associate you with what I already know? Okay. And God told him, bitch, I am that I am. [00:10:00] And that's all there is to it. Anna: Yes. Is that a quote description? That is, I am what I am and that's really it.Right. Because the point of even. The initiatives around using someone's proper pronouns is about respect. It is about honoring someone's identity, right? And for me, depending on what space I'm in child, ain't no telling what the pronouns is going to be. If I, with my boys, it's just, it is whatever. Right.And then I'm in society and people see me a certain way. And then that's that all I'm saying is with respect to who I am. So anything respectful is what resonates most with me, De'Vannon: right? Because it's in the tone of voice in the spirit behind the words. So you can be like, what a bitch and mean it would love.And you can be like, oh, Hey girl, Amina, what all the painting is and violent as that you could contrive. And when you hate that bitch, and you're like, Hey girl, you [00:11:00] know, that was not really in the word, but isn't the heart behind it. More than anything.Anna: Absolutely cause the shade is real. You can notice the shade.Okay. De'Vannon: At all. Oops. Plaque.Anna: You don't have it, but I see it. Okay. Y'all got it. But I see it. De'Vannon: I keep one in my glove compartment, just in my car, just in case I needed somewhere. And I got several in the house. Anna: So does my wife, Lord, all the De'Vannon: things, speaking of that. Yeah. And your bio, it says you are a daughter, a wife, a sister, and a friend who loves cooking and running.What I wanted to know from you about the wife. How did it feel? I want to know how did it feel to be married? Did you have any struggles and things like that? I don't meet a whole lot of married women. I don't. So talk to me about that whole process. Anna: Yeah, we just celebrated our five-year wedding [00:12:00] anniversary.We've been together for nine years. Just like when I met her, my momma loved there. Okay. And I don't like the ideas of, or the statements around, like someone completes me. I was done and completed, but she just adds so much to my life. She's just such a sweet and kind person. And she just fit right in with my family.It was like she had always been there. Everybody embraced her and, and I love her. So she's my best friend. She is the ultimate diva. Okay. She is the most high film woman I have ever dated in my life. But she balances me out and I just love her to pieces. De'Vannon: Yeah. Opposites attract like that. I learned that when I was in my hitting the therapy class, I was training to be a licensed hypnotist, which I am, you know, there's all kinds of signs [00:13:00]behind why quiet, conservative people attract more outgoing people, you know, and vice versa.If you too much alike, you tend to repel each other, you know, to put it simply my boyfriend's the same way. He's quiet. Fucking there. Okay in there, I'm the ones linking from the poles and the chandelier's and hitting the splits. And even now with all of that, you know, showing up, you know, shutting the shit down and everything, and he couldn't even talk.He would, he's not necessarily the most comfortable talking to people in public. You know, when I walk in the bitch, I own the room. Oh, his y'all's belongs to me until I leave this bitch. Anna: Okay. And let me tell you, so I turn it on when a microphone is in front of me, but other than that, I don't have to say a word to anybody.Okay. Yes, my wife is the same way. She walked into a room, she's a stylist. She just takes up space. Okay. Take some space. You came misled. And she also sells, I wear all right. [00:14:00] So the Kia collection.com. So she sells customer. I wear. And so every time she walked into a room, somebody taken something off her face off her risk, won't something.And she is, she's the life of a party.Oh, yeah. The K a collection.com. K a K a Y a K O L L E C T I O N. So the K a collection.com. De'Vannon: Okay. So then I'm like, Hey, yo, collection.com. All right. I'll drop that shit in the show notes, but show ya. I also heard what you said about how you were complete before you met her. This is something I concur with.None of this. This person completes me. I'm lost without you. I can't. Oh that you better know who you are before you get into a relationship with somebody. And a lot of that has to do with just theory, spirituality and shit like that. I think so many relationships in between. People lose [00:15:00] sight of their own individual identity in the whole process.And if you're not in tune with who you are, you're not going to be able to truly cater to that other person. You know, you gotta be whole firstAnna: a hundred percent and let's also be clear. We all been broken, right? So I ain't coming up here. Like I walked, I woke up like this therapy saved my life. Right.Therapy saved my life. We've all had tough and challenging relationships that have taken you all types of places that you never thought you would go. Then at some point you have to like, do some self reflection. Like, is it me? Maybe it's me. And you got to own that. You have to own that. Otherwise you'll continue to date the same person over and over again in a different body with a different sign and all types of stuff.And that was my reality. I had realized that I was dating the same person over and over again. I'm like, what is wrong? And so quickly checked myself into therapy and it saved my life. And so when my wife came into my [00:16:00] life, I didn't need completing. At that point, I was very clear about who I was and who I am.And she was just like the perfect fit into, into my life. So now we have our life with our puppy and grateful. De'Vannon: So when you say you checked yourself into therapy, are you being general in that saying you started seeing a therapist, did you check into a residential. Anna: I'll say it in general. Like I went to start, I started seeing a therapist and I've seen a few over my life and actually it's just about to start seeing a new one.And I think there'll be, is one of these things where you can choose to be in it for a really long time with the same person, but sometimes you even grow out of your therapist. And so sometimes you have to shift and sometimes you don't need it anymore and sometimes you gotta restart it because life would be doing a lot of living.And we just went through what, two years of an airborne panic. And if you listen into this, that means you survived it too. And [00:17:00] so none of us are the same as we were in 2019. There's no way you're the same person. So I think that there's there's seasons. And so I'm in a season where I got a lot going on.So I'm about to go see another therapist and it's just, if you've never done it, it's just a refreshing opportunity to talk to someone who is not fully engaged in your life, but can offer an outside an outside viewpoint that is often not, it's not critical, it's not judging. Right. You find somebody that works with you that you can vibe with, and you'll find yourself lighter after leaving.They're clearer, maybe about something you're struggling with. And for me, it was, it saved my life. De'Vannon: What kind of therapist? A licensed clinical social worker, a Anna: licensed clinical social worker and a black woman. De'Vannon: I find the LCSW to be [00:18:00] more like down to earth, then send like a psychologist, cause an LCSW is not prescribing medication.So they're actually the only way they can help you is through the words and the talking and the exercises and the practices. They, they, they give you to take home. I see an LCSW. I see a licensed marriage and family therapist together with my boyfriend together for, I don't know, 2, 3, 4 years, some shit I don't keep up with the damn time.You have to ask him I'm bad with birthdays and just general time, because I, I view things more eternal. You know, I don't believe in time constraints. It always has existed and always will in a way. And so And then I see my hypnotherapists individually and I love hypnotherapy because of how focused it is and how it gets into the subconscious and how you rip out what you don't want.You speak back to your open, vulnerable mind, which you do want. And so I particularly use that to help me stay off of [00:19:00] drugs. And so all. So that is our plug for mental health, because we know that it's something that's lacking in both the color community and in the gay community. It is not a straight a strike to your pride.If you want to go talk to somebody about getting help, there's many different types of therapists. That's why I asked her that if you go to one therapist and they're a fucking piece of shit, then fuck that hell you go to somebody else. Maybe you need a different type of therapy. There's all sorts of new age, metaphysical shit out there, getting the therapy Stella constellations all kinds of mind, body, soul meditation, shit.If you don't want to do traditional therapist, you can therapy. You can do the shit off his own. Now there's all kinds of shit. So whatever it is you think mental health is if you have a bad taste in your mouth about it I asked you to revisit it and take a second look at it. Because again, I said, we all had been fucked.You know, and so you need help to get unfucked up and to get an objective perspective. So you [00:20:00] don't keep getting fucked up relationships and sabotaging yourself. So just humble yourself down and go get some help, baby. And look, no one has to know, these therapists are bound by confidentiality, so it's not like they can go put it on social media that you were in treatment, or they would get their license taken and probably go to jail.So it's a secret, nobody. Nobody nobody has to Anna: know that's right. And may is mental health awareness month. So there is so much information out here right now in promoting and making awareness, you know, mental health awareness, I think this month. So you just one Google search. De'Vannon: Just one Google search away.So a quote that you had it says is your favorite pro. You said at first they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you, then you win. And that was by Gandhi. Tell me what this quote means to you.[00:21:00]Anna: And that you can't be waiting for people to validate who you are or validate your idea or validate what you call to do. It is not about that. You know, people gonna go along for the ride, you have to be clear about what you want to do. And I think that along the way, you're going to encounter different people.You know, I'm building a business. I don't come from a whole lot. I come from a whole lot of love. And so, but we got a lot of things and a lot of people, I talked to a lot of asks and the requests, I take a lot of leaps of faith. I have to keep practicing my faith muscle and building up my face muscle and what it means to take risks.And along the way, I'm going to run into people that don't agree with me, who don't believe what I'm in, what I'm doing, who don't see a market for it, who don't see a need for it. And honestly, like when we make it, that's when everybody want to be down. So for me, that quote by Gandhi just resonates a lot with what it means to be on the journey.And not, and for me, it's [00:22:00] not caring so much about the destination because to your point, like, I feel like things just will continue to be, but it's about enjoying the journey. And that quote reminds me that it's a journey that is not just going to be one thing or another thing. It's all of things, De'Vannon: all of them each and every last one of them.I love the friction that comes along. When w when people would try to repel us, though, I believe it helps to meet tourists. And it helps to refine us like when a moth or a butterfly. It's trying to crawl a lot of that Chrysalis after they'd been a caterpillar, you know, that struggle helps to release the, you know, the blood flow in whatever juices are in their little furry bodies to expand their wings.You know, that that struggle is needed. They can not become what they are to be without the problems. And, you know, and so I'm thankful for all the Karens for all the church, people who told us we had to get out, you know, and, and everything like that. For [00:23:00] the people who told us since we were black, we can't, we can't stay there.And stuff like that. When I read that, I thought about how I got kicked out of Lakewood church in Houston, Texas for not being straight, you know, but eventually I'm going to get the victory over them. Cause you know, I've been there when they kicked me out. This was like 2008, 2009. And I just finished my book and I went into great detail about how I felt about all of that.It took me over 10 years, but I finally clapped. I finally clapped the back. And so I will win. Yes, Anna: you are winning. You are winning. You've already won. The victory is yours. You're already, De'Vannon: they may in an amen. Okay. So then I'm just curious about, what do you think some of the top issues are facing just the lesbian community today?Hmm. [00:24:00] And why are you thinking about that? I noticed some of your top lives being moments when I was researching you. I would agree with queen Latifa from set it off. Anna: Yes, honey. That is number one of all time. You know what? I would argue anybody down and say that ain't the number one black lesbian moment in film, because.She was studied out in and go, okay, let dances. It was everything. Okay. It's a freaking classic acquaint. Lindsey foot is number one and she ain't even have to be out she out now, but she ain't going to have to be out. She is out to us anyway. So that was actually a really fun video to do. And I'll probably do another one because so many people rode in some of their favorite black lesbian moments that I had not even thought about again, or that people didn't tell me about because I asked my friends.So for example Lena commented, Lena [00:25:00] wave comments. And then she was like, what about when Tasha was on, came out on the L word? And I was like, dang, that was a pivotal moment because L where had been so white up until that point and it Tasha show up and just wreck the crew. And I was just like, Hey you.Right. So I'll probably do another video. But I think, I think for lesbians, some of the major challenges is still representation. And I think there is a lot of invisibility happening with lesbians. So there's a, there's a podcast called cruising, which on this podcast and but there's a podcast called cruising and they have like three lesbians going across the country and they are going to all of the last lesbian bars.And so there's 60,000 bars across the country and there's only 25 lesbian bars, 25 lesbian owned bars across the whole country. And so they did a whole podcast traveling around the country and visiting these bars. [00:26:00] So I think that there is a great need for visibility of lesbians. Not only in media, but just in life in general, you know?And I think lesbians often can kind of get lost in the south. So similar to how people feel like there's some invincibility with, by bisexuals in the community right now, I think, you know, a lot of trans folks get a lot of press because there is a political onslaught happening from right wing conservatives politically.And it doesn't mention, you know, gay folks or lesbian folks or bisexual folks it's specifically mentioned trans folks, you know, and I think that there's some, there's a definitely a sector of lesbians who feel like they have been left behind often also because we use the word queer these days and no one really uses the word lesbian.So I know that there's some lesbians out there that just feel like they've been left [00:27:00]somewhere in the eighties and. I think it's a, I think it's a challenge for them in that respect with all that being said, if one of our alphabet mafia is as you put it, okay, it's being attacked. Then we all being attacked.If we all don't have freedom, then none of us have freedom. So I think that some of what I hear as lesbian concerns, you know, aren't really concerns at all. I think it is fear. And I think that when our trans fam is experiencing right now, what they are experiencing right now affects every single last one of us.De'Vannon: So when you say someone says there's a lesbian concern and it's not really a concern, it sounds like you're speaking about hate and ignorance. Anna: Well, it might be a problem for them. It's not a problem for me. I think [00:28:00] that. I think it's just people being who they are.And I think that there, I think that people evolve and I think that terms evolve. And so I think there are people who are lesbians, who identify with a very strict definition of what it means to be a lesbian. I think there's people who identify with the very strict definition of what it means to be, get men who love men and women who love women.Like these are various particular definitions like that is it. And that is all right. That we're coming upon a time. I felt like we were living in a time where there is sexual fluidity and so forth, and I can speak for myself and I statements are so helpful in these moments. It's like I came out as a lesbian, but at the end of the day today, I identify as queer because child, I love a lot of things.Okay. And it's not just, it's not just women or assists women. Okay. It's just not. And so I needed an expansive word. I needed an expansive definition outside of [00:29:00] lesbian to identify with. So I think that I think oftentimes people get. And what they always known or anything like or stuff like that.But at the end of the day, things evolve, people evolve terms, evolve, communities evolve. And I also think that if there is one major issue affecting lesbians today, it is just continues to be a lack of representation and visibility, especially for masculine scent and lesbians. I mean, fam lesbians, they, their level of Ms.Visibility is a whole nother story, right? I've I've had films. Tell me, like, I intentionally date, you know, masculine of center women. So people know that I am a lesbian. I don't want you to think I'm straight, you know? And for masculine of center women, there is a, there is an appearance that out you, when you walk out the house.So you know, [00:30:00] visibility on a grander scale is still not there, even though there's a different level of acceptance. I believe four lesbians than there are even for gay men. I think gay men have a whole other struggle that around masculinity, especially in this country, that it's just really different than the lesbian experience.I've talked about. A friend I grew up with a gay guy who was very flamboyant, right? We was cool. He had to come to school with a knife right in his shoe. He never left home without a knife. And underneath the sole of his shoe, that was not my story. I never felt unsafe. He always felt unsafe. And I think at the core of it, I mean, there's so much to be said around the differences between a male identified experience and a woman identified experience within the LGBTQ community.De'Vannon: Let's talk about these experiences in the church. So in researching you, there is some Lutheran Baptist. History [00:31:00] here. Talk to us about how you grew up in cherish. Anna: Ah, man, my mama and my daddy met at church. So my dad has been a teacher for 40 years and he was teaching at teaching at a private Lutheran school where my mom had enrolled my sister.So my sister is 17 years older than me. And so my mom rolled my sister there and then they started a love affair in which they had to keep on, on the low, because the teachers weren't supposed to be thanking the parents, the parents were supposed to be dating the teacher's child, but in a way,and let me tell you, 40 years later, they still at the same church. Okay. So. They landed at a black Lutheran church on the south side of Chicago. And so that's where I grew up, but my dad's side of the family started a missionary Baptist church also on the south side of Chicago. So I would often have two Easter speeches.Okay. I, we would often end up going to two different churches on Sundays. Cause my family was at that church, [00:32:00] my uncles, my aunts, my grandma. I mean, everybody was that Christian Love missionary Baptist church. Right. And so we would, you know, time's always different to, with black church. So Lutherans start at a bright and early 10:00 AM.Okay. And we was done in 60 minutes, strong, maybe 75 on communion. Sunday Baptist church was just getting started about 11 and praise and worship. 30 minutes. And so by the time we get that, we still at the beginning of the service, so it would a lot more shouting to go. So it was definitely two very different religious experiences growing up too, which I think just kinda tells a lot about my life in general.The dichotomies. I'll be one place at one moment and be in total different place in the moment. Another moment, you know, I could be at some highfalutin place one moment, and then I could be in the projects the next moment. All of it [00:33:00] made sense to me for where I was in my life. But church church was a good time.De'Vannon: So you're a preacher's kid. You, you, you say that would explain why you are freaking, you call yourself queer into all things. You have them PKS. I'm pretty freaky deaky. Anna: We get into some things, we get into some things and they'll see it. My dad. So he's a deacon, but at the end of the day, he could preach anywhere and he does preach all the time.And. He just for Lutherans, you got a lot of rules, regulations. And so he never went back to get that final piece, but he has his master's in divinity and all this stuff. So, yeah. Child, Sundays, Wednesdays, Saturdays, and church. De'Vannon: Yeah, that's awesome. That's how I was growing up. Pentecostal Wednesday, you know, Bible ban this night, delivering service this night and the other service [00:34:00] that night when I was at Lakewood, I was there four nights a week, choir practice, Tuesday night, Wednesday night, kids worship leading and teaching Saturday night kids, life choir, Sunday choir.I think, I think we get like addicted to church before we realized we are Anna: Church is a big part, right? If you grew up in the church, it's a big part of your identity. It's your community, it's your family and my home church where my parents still go is home. They have always loved me, always embracing me.I've never been anything that I'm not there, but I have my own thoughts around religion and religious organization. So joining the Missouri Senate is not an option for me because they don't see me as a whole person. So for me, it goes beyond the church. It's about the religious organization, right. [00:35:00] But it defined so much.And that's why when queer folks get rejected from church, It is incredibly impactful and can really damage and cause harm because the first couple of places you learn how to love is at home and at church. And that's often times the two places you spend the most time. And so when one, or both turn their back on you as a human being, you are not the same person you were before.It can, it, it leads you down a path that it, it destroys you period. Point blank. It destroys you, you know, and a lot of my work over the years has been around dismantling that and telling the truth about it. That Jesus never said one thing about gay people, not one, Jesus never said it. Now. I just, these clapper scriptures and everything else, I mean, The Bible is meant to be interpreted.It's meant to be [00:36:00] understood. It's meant to be put into context and the way folks have picked and chosen what they want to and who they want to damn to Hale is, is the most unlocked ungodlike thing they can absolutely ever do. And back in the day, I did this project with this organization called church, was in a church where we did a video 30 day release them to do video every 30 days called my God is not a bully to just emphasize that point that God is not bullying anybody.It's the people in the pulpit that are, and their lack of interpretation of scripture and in context of strip scripture. So The church means a lot to me actually is part of the Q we are releasing our own content as part of the queue and to, and one of our podcasts first podcast is called second Sunday.And I cannot wait for y'all to hear this podcast [00:37:00] because it's talking about the intersections of being black queer and in the church. And we had the opportunity to interview a lot of black queer theologians, lay people musicians for this podcast and the things that they share a child, it's just, it humanizes an experience that gets polarized a lot.And I hope I hope folks can get seen through this work. De'Vannon: Yeah. I was at a graduate at the Houston graduate school of theology and he of course, Euston, Texas, but I was going to get a master's of divinity as well. When you said that it, it popped out my ears, but I, I left that bitch. I broke up, I broke up and that bitch, when the, when the law professor said that, that they like to control people in church.And so that was like, well, I didn't come here to dominate motherfuckers, so I'll be going now. And so let me get more, I want to get more granular [00:38:00] with your per perspective. Cause I watched that video. One of the, one of the God is not a bully and I agree with what you're saying and it's at the epicenter of my message to people.I preach spiritual independence and people getting close to God on their own without a church or with one. But if you're going to have a church, remember that it's second to God. And so You bring up. Okay. So you're talking about like how the people are using the scripture to throw shade at people who are unlike them.It, how. Scriptural interpretation is very subjective and it is, everybody can read the Bible and come out of it with what they want. It's clearly not an easy to understand book because if it was simple to interpret, then you wouldn't need a thousand different translations of it. And so, I mean, And so since people are indoctrinated in such a young age, you know, at churches, you, you understand you go there to learn, but critical thinking about what the preacher is saying is not what's taught to you.And [00:39:00] so you're accepting whatever is being said. And by the time you're old enough to know any difference, you've got all of these issues to sort out, and then you feel conflicted about it because you've been told never to disagree with a preacher or a church, but now you like the shit don't make sense though.And so, so we add an out here to tell you that you will not burn up and go to hell for not being straight and to all the straight people. And I mean that loosely, because you never know what the hell people not doing behind closed doors. I didn't fuck so many straight married men and my day is unreal.And so you know, just, just know that while they're trying to use these scriptures over here to condemn you to hell since they want to be so strict about that. The, the Bible and everything. You know, the Bible speaks against getting divorced for any reason, other than infidelity. It speaks against interracial couples and stuff like that, stuff that we're all totally cool with.Now, them people in church got 50,000 divorces. [00:40:00] It all kinds of reasons and all kinds of mixed, mixed racial shit's going on. And I'm cool with all of it. But my whole point is this. If you're going to be such a hard ass about one part, you need to be a hard ass about the whole fucking thing. I don't want to see you eating nothing that divided the hoof.I don't want you getting down with the pig or nothing like that. If you going to be that much of a, of a bitch about it, then follow the whole fucking thing from end to end and not just a P a few slices of. Anna: And that's what they do, right? Those Christians like them, so-called Christians cause they not Christian some so called Christians.You know, they use, they use it for whatever they feel like they want to use it for. And they cause a lot of freaking harm and they're causing harm right now. And now it's entered the political round, you know? And we need more folks like you, we need more projects. I tell queer folks and LGBTQ young people that you'll still love that God still loves you.That your relationship with God is far more important [00:41:00] than whatever this preacher is saying from a pulpit. I also think critical thought is so incredibly important when you understand that there are books missing from the Bible, right? When you understand that, that what you're reading is not the entire Canon, like what are we doing here?People, what are we doing here? And also think it's easy to make God this very angry damning person and being. That was not what God taught at all. That's not what God taught at all. De'Vannon: He's not, he's a God of mercy and grace forgiveness, long suffering, slow to anger, quick, the mercy, quick, the compassion.That's what the scripture say. He's not like man, you know, quick to judge and clobber you and what you speak of about getting kicked out from churches and how it changes you. It's it's, it's what I call being dehumanized. It makes you feel like you're less than a person. And when a church tells you, you have to go.Not because of [00:42:00] something you've done with church has never supposed to tell anyone to go, no matter what, you know, Jesus accepted murderers and everybody. So for a terrace would be like, you can't go because of who you love, which is what Lakewood church did to me. You know, you can't. There, you know, you, that, that, that, that sent me on a downward spiral that ultimately led me into drugs and to drug dealing and to getting hepatitis B and HIV, my choice to do what I do, do what I did, but they certainly would've sparked the set that shit in motion and fuck them.Fuck you wake with church in on repeat, if we can dub stuff, that shit, then the video you also said. You, you made a comparison about how, okay. Say like procreation, one of the arguments people use against the non straight community is that God hates what you're doing because when you have sex, you can't, and there's no kid that's gonna come of it.[00:43:00]And then you were like, okay, well they're straight couples that God has prevented them from having children's. It was that because he hates them too. You know, it's not a, you can't apply that sort of a rubric evenly. You can't do it. And then you were also saying, you said something very interesting to me.You said that you wouldn't choose another burden and you were like, I'm already blessed. That's hard enough as it is. Do I really want. Add queer to it and all the problems that come along in this life, in that statement, you're rebutting the stupid shit. Like I heard Joyce Meyer and whoever the fuck else say that, where they think it's a choice, you know, like, like we just, oh, well we'll think we'll be gay today, you know, or some or some stupid shit like that as that is the most overly simplistic, dumb ass shit.These supposedly educated people Anna: say 100%. And I think that that's at the core of it. And I was talking to somebody recently whose child just came out to [00:44:00] them a year or so ago. And I was just like, you know, We have to start the conversation at choice with choice, because if you believe what I'm doing is a choice, then we're not going to get very far because at the heart of homophobia, is this idea that you can change.Hence why conversion therapy, right. Has been such a popular way for Christians to change people because you don't think it's a choice because you think it's a choice. But in fact, it's not. In fact, I grew up when my mama put me in bowls and matching ruffle socks. Okay. And doing everything in her power to make, to, to raise a feminine girl.And in fact, I was who I was from the moment I had any say over it. It's just not who I was. And I was very clear about that from a very young age. I was very clear that I was [00:45:00] athletic. Does that make me gay? No, but I was also very clear. I liked wearing my dad's shirts and my dad and I had the same initials and he gets his shirts embroidered with his initials on them.And I wanted to wear his shirts. I was not going to wear my mother's dresses. I didn't want nothing to do with heels. I didn't want to do a pantyhose. It's just, it just wasn't who I was and it's not who I am. And so I think all of these conversations around homophobia and transphobia and hate come around, the idea that who we are is a choice and who we are is not a choice in the same ways who they are, you know innately is not a choice.De'Vannon: That do be facts though, because if there was, they're going to apply that logic, the us, and it has to go in reverse. And I like you when I was two, three years old, I was already playing with Kendall. I was trying to see what was up under his shorts and shit like that. So, but if, but if there's a choice, then when did they kick to be straight?And [00:46:00] then if that's the case, are they confessing that they had homosexual desire at some point, you know, the way they tell it, they'd been straight from the beginning. So if that's the case, you know, it's uneven, but it's like anything else from your favorite food to your favorite color? Life is a thing of discovery.We do not get to put ourselves together like a doll or a made out of Play-Doh. You don't get to go. My favorite color is going to be green. My favorite dish is going to be lobster. My favorite state, I think I'll go with Kentucky. My favorite shoes, I think van sounds nice. You know, you, you get exposed to shit and then you pay attention to what keeps standing out to you.And what keeps drawing you in and then you go, oh, it seems like I'm into the color green or, oh, I think I really, really liked these fucking vans. They represent me. Well, you discover who you are, the beginnings of who you are, is shaped. And when you're in your mother's womb everywhere, she goes, the things she says, the people she talks to, the thing she thinks read, exposes [00:47:00] that child to everything, you cannot separate the two.So you're predisposed to so much before you're even born. So for them fuckers to be like, well, you chose to be gay. I goes again, signs and all logic. And they're just stupid as hell. Anna: Pretty much, pretty much. And what's really unfortunate is, is that I, I see that there can be a differentiation. So let me give you an example.Like you can believe that being queer is wrong, right? You can believe. But that should not equate to me not having the rights as a citizen, within a country that I pay taxes in, if that makes sense. So for me, politics shapes society. So you can think being gay is wrong, but that doesn't mean you have the right to limit my rights, [00:48:00] to control who I love control.If I can get married control, if I can get medical care control with books, I read you not have that type of control in my life. Just because you don't agree with who I am. I don't agree with you being a white, racist, homophobic transphobic person. Right. Right. But I ain't trying to write legislation to kill off your human existence.Right. Because that is exactly the fact of the matter is that what's happening across the country right now is killing. Trans youth, the numbers the suicide hotlines, like the Trevor project, they are outrageous right now, right? People are trying to leave states where they have had homes and families and a legacy because their children can't get the medical care they need.Because now politicians are saying that parents don't know what's best for their own children. How dare you? Just because you don't believe in who I am. [00:49:00] And I think it's just so incredibly contradictory because they don't want anyone telling them who they are or what they should be doing. You know,De'Vannon: if it's any consolation, these people are the hypocrites of our day. You had them in Jesus's time. I agree with what you said earlier, how the Bible is not complete. Some people will say everything you need to know about life it's in the Bible. That's bullshit. It's a general. It's a general guide to help get you close enough to God.So you can talk to him for yourself and then he can fix you and instruct you the rest of the way. But everything is not in there, but these, these Republicans and evangelicals and everything, these are today's hypocrites. Every generation has to have them. There's not going to come a time in this earth until probably the millennial kingdom when Jesus Christ reigns here again, but even, well, I'm not going to say that because even then there's going to be people who don't believe in him in the earth.And so there's always going to be those people who are contradictory, these people [00:50:00] are like how solid the apostle is before you became Paul. The thing is if God doesn't open somebody's eyes to their hypocrisy, then they won't see if you don't up in their ears to hear truth. They won't hear, they won't believe and be converted.Every generation has to have the people who are going to be citizens of hell bound to go to hell. Because if they have humility and love in their heart, they would go to heaven and they would be rugged. You people not going to accidentally end up in hell, you have to be like Pharaoh or somebody and just hardheaded ignoring the signs, not hearing what the people under you are trying to say, not hearing the voice of the people.That's how far was he just would not hear logic and reason because he was so set in his ways and what he wanted to want other people to do. Now, Paul Saul took his ass to the Sanhedrin saying Hedron was a religious council of the day. I think it's like 70 something. My fathers who control shit. It's no [00:51:00] different than legislation.The day, a whole group of motherfuckers who control. You say, I look this Jesus person and come here with his bullshit and these people trying to act like him and we can't be having none of this. So give me some power, some letters and shit. So then go arrest. They asses and beat them and fuck with them and shit beat this Jesus out of the acids.Cause this ain't right. It's on rip up our moral fabric. And this is going to tear our society down because of how they believe. And the Sanhedrin was like, go on, play a gong. Now his way to Damascus Jesus intercepted his bitch ass. And it was like, ah, ah, ah, ah, what you doing? You need to stop this shit because I did not send you scripturally speaking.He said, Saul saw, why, why are you persecuting me? It's hard for you to kick against the pricks. And so what do we have here? Somebody who said those people over there, I don't like what they doing. So let me in and enact laws to change them. And the Lord said, I don't want [00:52:00] you to do that. That, that is the what the whole beginning of that, that part of the book of acts is about Jesus Christ.Being against using the law to co Eris people to behave differently. It was right there yet. When those people, the people of our day, the hypocrites, the Republicans, evangelicals, if they even read they dusty ass Bibles, I don't see how they can. And when they read the Bible, they, they read it to find not what's wrong with other people.They are right there. But when they killed Steve and I'm going to say this and shut the hell up, but this is a hot button for both of us when they killed even the one who said to me, the first martyr, he read the religious people for Phil, and he told them, you motherfuckers are the same people who kill the prophets and everything like that.While you sitting up here trying to judge me that he, it was a whole long chapter in acts. And then they stoned him to death and everything like that. So these things must be so, Anna: and I think so, [00:53:00] Chad, you just said so much, there's so much to say. I think, I think at the heart of it also is that the theology, like your own spiritual connection to God is, can be so expansive.So the, to your point, right, the Bible is one thing. But then, right. Christians will tell you that all these, you shouldn't even explore these other religions. They can't give you nothing. Like, no, you can't get nothing out of nothing out of these, none of these other spaces. And I think to myself, like I thought God created everything.I thought God created everything. And if God created everything and God is in everything. And and I find myself having a very expansive worldview about God and my beliefs, like, so. Growing up. You're taught that if someone commits suicide, they go into hell. [00:54:00] And then now I was thinking, and then as I grew up, I was like, why would God send anybody to hell for committing suicide?And where does it say that in the Bible? And it doesn't right. We're just fed these. We fed these things out of fear to control you to not commit suicide, but who in the world told you that? When I think about the, the, the, the preachers and spiritual teachings that like folks around the world, anyone who doesn't call Jesus by name as their Lord and savior is going to go to hell, how is that possible?When there's people in the other countries, in the world who don't even know who Jesus is. So you're telling me that this God of love is going to send somebody who had an opportunity to get to know who, who Jesus was. That doesn't make any sense to me. And I think that. When for me, because of my sexual identity, it caused me to have to question a whole hell of a lot of stuff.Definitions of [00:55:00] what heaven heaven is, definitions of what hail is, definitions of who's going, and who's not, you begin to question all of it. And for me, when it boils down, I love it. When my mom says this to people about me. When she would tell me this all the time, she'd be like, have you read your 10 commandments recently?I don't see nothing in there about God, about gay people, you know? But I see a whole lot of other stuff that applies to you. Hello. So my mom, you know, she got to the point where she was empowered enough to, you know, stand up and say something and speak out about that. And I think that we need more people to do just that.Cause they ain't gonna say it to me. They gonna say it to their friend who they think agreed with them, you know? So. I just think we have a long way to go to the, understand what it means to, to embody and to embody a godlike existence, because it has so much [00:56:00] more to do with love and choice than anything else.De'Vannon: I was like you a very well said girl. I was like you very confused and conflicted about myself because of what the church said. They only gave me peace with learning, how to read the scripture for myself. I went back to the original Greek Hebrew and Aramaic the original, the Bible and discovered it for myself, what I want people to do, because any translation you read king James, a message or whatever, the living Bible, those are all other people's translations.That's not the actual original language. Instead, if you want the true truth, then you got to go back to the source. You got to go back to the original languages of the net and you get. Somebody else's version Anna: that end. You have to I think you gotta find your own practice. So you have to find what that practice looks like for you.Especially when you feel disconnected from church, because church was a practice Sunday, Saturday, Wednesday, however many times a [00:57:00] week, that was a practice. So as if you feel yourself pulling away from that, that you have to figure out what your practice look like. And so today, like my practice looks like me being in my prayer corner in the mornings, but my affirmation books with my journals, with my candle, with my music, with pictures of my family, like for me growing up, like it is being grounded in quiet and close to God in those moments.And that's my, that's my practice today. And I feel closer to God than I ever have. I see signs all the time. I think numerology is real. Like if something profound happens, I'm like, what time is it? I think, I think there's so many ways to connect with God. And when you choose to close yourself off to all the possibilities and all the possibilities of who God is, you will miss her.You going to miss, you're going to miss her. You gonna miss her. That's it.[00:58:00]De'Vannon: Let me see here. So we wanted to talk about the cube. As we begin to wrap it up, I'm going to read your favorite quote by Shirley Chisholm believes you better than she was the first black woman to put in a bid to be a presidential nominated back in the seventies and her eyeglass, a tiny her frame game was on point yes and date match for the gods date.And she said, if they don't give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair. You go on to say in your it says in your, in your, in your website, you know, we bought our folding chairs and there hasn't been any equity to be found at those tables. It's time for us to build our own tables and our own chairs to this space and model the change we want to see in the world of podcasting.Anna: Yes. All of that. So I love Shirley chill. I love [00:59:00] everything. She's still fought. She she's made a lot of things possible and she had to bring her folding chair. Okay. She had to, they weren't inviting her to no tables. She had to bring a folding chair, but because of the work that she did and in fact that we can stand on the shoulders of so many other incredible, incredible people of history from Ella baker to Angela Davis, to Coretta Scott King, Utah, I mean, Elaine brown, I can go on and on.We can build our own tables. We don't have to wait on anyone to do anything for us. Should apple be more inclusive? Yes. Should Spotify be more inclusive? Yes, they should. But it is not about what they should do because capitalism rules this country. So if it's not, if it doesn't make money, it doesn't make sense in so many ways in that world, but we have an opportunity to do something different.[01:00:00]And I think we have an opportunity to shape, especially the podcasting space, because I feel like it's still very much so a new medium, I believe it's coming into its own after 20 years. And that's why I like new it's like, so it's such a funny thing to say because it's been 20 years, but for so many people, they are just really getting into what it could mean to listen to a podcast.And we can shape what we want this world to see. And I wanted to see more diverse. I want to see more people like me and I wasn't finding them. And so the cube will be that there'll be the one and only curated destination of music and podcasts by BiPAP and QT POC folks. And the music is powered by our radio station.Ethan. Which plays queer music and reports on queer news and high rotation specifically at the intersections of race and sexuality. So there's so many queer artists out here doing their thing, and you don't hear about them. [01:01:00] There's so many of them making good music. I got one of my favorite inspirational artists is a black queer woman who was on Sunday.Best Maya be you know, her, you know, like they deserve a space to be. And then there's like, dope podcasts is like, you whole deserve to be seen who to serve more visibility, more amplification of your work. And I think we can do it. And matter of fact, I know we can do it. We are doing it. And I think we can do it really, really well.So it's going to be an app or in development. My goal. My hope is that we are dropping beta in July and totally out to the public. By September of this year, we've accepted 94 podcasts into the app. We've got a team of folks listening to every single piece of podcast content, because we want the best pod-casters inside of our app.I want the best because there's a lot of poor Lee produced podcasts in the market. People who [01:02:00] sound like they got the iPhone on top of the roof on a fourth bottle of wine. Okay. And you know, that's okay. That's okay. You can do that. You got something to say and you better go say it. Okay. But they don't have to be what's in my ears.It doesn't have to be what's inside this app. I want it to have to be where the best reside and that's what resonates with me. And that's what we're building. De'Vannon: Yeah. I was listening to somebody, his podcasts earlier, who's trying to come on my show and be a guest. And I was like, God, I can't hear what you're saying.You sound muffled. Yes. Out there. So I thank you for your compliments. Just all the sex, drugs and jingles podcast has been accepted into the cube. So our clients, our quality is on point enough for these standards. And so. I'm going to read it a little bit further. So it says the cube is majority owned by a black queer woman and co-founded by three black LGBTQ persons.The cube will be a centralized [01:03:00] destination for discovery of BiPAP and QT pop music and podcasts. Tell us what the BiPAP and QT pox Anna: fans. Absolutely BiPAP is black indigenous people of color. And I choose to say BiPAP because I leave with my blackness. And so I choose to say black indigenous people of color.And then I choose to identify queer trans people of color specifically, even though we inside the BiPAP, we in there. But I think it's important for queer folks to know that I'm talking about that, that this platform is also for them, that I want to be able to center and amplify their work as well. And so that's why I, I include QT POC into the narrative now is my marketing team happy about that?No. Okay. It's a lot of words. It's a lot of acronyms people don't know what the heck I'm talking about, but the people, the people who know know. Right. And so, you know, at the end of the day I'm in this accelerator right now with Google, which is [01:04:00] really dope. It's the Google for startups like founders academy.And one of the mentors was like, I need five words, five words to describe your business. You should be able to describe your business in five words. And I was like, God, dang it. And so I came up with discover, discover the best bi-pod podcast. Right. If I had to describe it in five words, discover the best BiPAP podcast is what I came up with.And so that's what it all means. At the end of the day. It's about discovery. You will, will be able to listen to these podcasts inside of the app. And I hope people would choose to do that as well. There's an opportunity for Uproxx to tip their creators from within the app and that money would go straight to those creators.And I'm excited about that. The moment we get enough users, we'll be able to roll out an ad revenue sharing program, right? So we could put more money into creatives pockets who do want to make money from advertising. And, you know, I think we just continue to build this platform in this [01:05:00] space for folks to discover some of the amazing ways that black, brown, and queer folks of color show up in the world.And I think podcasting is a space that people are choosing to share their experiences with the world the same way you share yours. You know? I think there's a, there's a, I know there's a lot of people doing that and you just can't find them. De'Vannon: Up until now, because now Anna: you got the keyDe'Vannon: cue, baby. Yeah.All right. So just any last words you have for the world, any community, whatever you want to say, you can say, what the fuck you feel? Anna: I love it. I love, I can say whatever the fuck I feel.I feel like we're in. I feel like we're in a moment right now. So I, I feel like we've survived a pandemic and it feels like the world is restarting in some ways. [01:06:00] And I feel like we've got an opportunity here to change the way. We do media and podcasting has a way, has an opportunity to show folks how to do media collaboration.Right? I think we can show what it means to be a community inside of a media industry. I think podcasting has an opportunity to do it differently than what and how things have been done in the past. And so I hope that I, I hope that I can be part of that change. There are so many amazing people in this space doing amazing work, our partners.And my hope is that I can amplify them as well. So when we talk about the black podcast association, when I think about the women of color association, when I think about the

Topher Morrison has tips aplenty when it comes to authors getting booked to speak and it makes sense: he is, after all, the founder of Personofi, a firm that specializes in brand messaging for small business owners. He is the author of four best-selling books and was voted one of the top 10 business speakers in Tampa Bay. His extensive speaking career, spanning over the past 30 years, has earned him a global reputation as an expert in mass communication and influence. He has spoken for top execs with American Express, Microsoft and Google, just to name a few. In this episode, he shared so many gems I'd never heard before—including where authors who have never spoken before can get experience for a reel, the importance of a one-sheet, how to make a book into a speech by using the vignettes in it, why the opening of the speech should not be the same as your first chapter and how to sell your book while speaking without sounding like a douche. WANT 7 DAYS OF WRITING TIPS? GO TO WWW.YOURBOOKWRITINGTIPS.COM TRANSCRIPT: Anna: Okay Topher, thank you so much for coming to chat with me today. Topher: I am stoked. It's been first off way too long since we've chatted anyway. When did we meet each other, 10 years ago, maybe longer? Anna: Hold on. It wasn't quite 10 years ago, but this is sort of an awesome thing. I was thinking about it because there's a comedian that I used to know pretty well and I haven't seen him since then. I think it was John Heffron, right? Topher: John Heffron. We are still good buds. Yes. That's how I met you. Anna: But I think what happened is I saw him tweet about you. Or he told me directly. He said, "I know this guy, I work with this guy who's the best speaking coach." And I reach out to you and you were so sweet. And you said, "I'm going to be in LA. I'll just work with you." Or maybe you even said, "I'll come to LA." Topher: I can't remember. Anna: And I remember because I had this office at WeWork and you worked with me and you really helped me restructure a talk that I had and deliver it. And you are just such a sweet, sweet person and so good at what you do. Topher: Thanks. Anna: I'm really happy that you're here to talk about something I've never talked about on the podcast and my listeners are very much interested in, which is how do you convert a book into a talk? And how do you use the fact that you're an author to get booked as a speaker? So let's actually do it backward. Because as I always say, if there are two people that a booker is considering, and they're equal, but one has a book, they're always going to book the author. Tell me about that. Topher: Every single time they will pick the published author over the unpublished author even if the other speaker is a better speaker and has a better demo reel and is more entertaining. They will almost always, I guess I should probably preserve that, not be so hyperbolic, but they will almost always pick the author. Because there is this perceived notion in society that authors are experts. And that's probably rightly earned as well. At least if it's a good book, they probably are an expert in it and they took a long time, you know, you've written a book, it ain't easy. It's hard. So by the time somebody's gone through all that process, they are probably an expert. But it's a false assumption, but it is a societal assumption that the authors are the experts. Yeah. Anna: Yes. It's why we do what we do. Because a lot of our clients are experts, but nobody knows that because they've sort of been working towards their expertise, doing their 10,000 hours of work, and they need that book to show the world. Topher: Yeah, they're working on their craft. They're the world's best-kept secret because they're an expert in it and they are bonafide phenomenal and they don't have the book. And there's just no social proof. In fact, the scary part is that, especially in today's society, because publishing has become such a mainstream thing, nowadays the question people get is, "Have you written a book?" And you know, if somebody ever asked you, "Well, do you have any books? Have you written any book on it?" you know you're six months or a year behind if people are asking if you have a book and you don't. You definitely want to have one, no doubt about it. And the only anything better than having one is having two or three or four. Anna: Or eight like me, right. Topher: Yeah. Ooh. Anna: And, oftentimes bookers are quite excited to have a signing. So I think that that's... And/or a lot of speakers will gift their book or they'll say basically, "Hey, if you buy 200 copies, you don't have to pay me." Tell me a little bit about how that works. Topher: Yeah. So there are several different packages that you can offer as a speaker when you have a book, which is just what you just said. You have your speaking fee and then you will gift a certain number of books. Or you could have bought my book and I will speak for free. And something people might say, "Well, why is that important?" Because the monies to buy the books come out of a different account than the money to pay the speakers in large corporations. So they may have already blown their budget on their conference for their speakers, but yet they still have money in their budget for swag bags. And by the way, that's a great way to say, "We'll get the books in time for you to put them in your swag bags," and they love that as well. So it comes out of a different purse. And so, while you may have a budget that you have to stay within the speaker fees, the book fees could be added. And it's just a great way for you to have more flexibility and still get maximum dollars from that event. Anna: That's so interesting. I've never thought about that. And then, of course, if you have a business and let's say you one client is worth anywhere from a thousand dollars to a hundred thousand dollars, it is well worth the investment in the $3 a book or whatever it's going to cost for you to gift that. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Although, definitely don't gift it first, sell it first. And then if they don't buy, then go down to hard costs. And then if they don't buy, then you can gift. Start off with the price that makes you the most amount of money, obviously. Because like I said, sometimes these big corporations don't bat an eye. Remember this, the one thing I love to tell people when they're thinking about charging their speaking fees and like, "Oh, how much is the right fee and blah, blah, blah, blah," remember that the bar tab at a conference for a large corporation will outweigh your speaking fee by at least five times, at least five times. Just keep that in mind. It may seem like a big fee for us when we charge it. It is a drop in the bucket for these large corporations that are hosting and spending $300,000, a half million, $2 million, $10 million on their annual conferences. A $10,000 or a $20,000 speaking fee is nothing for these companies. Anna: Let's say I'm a first-time author. And my book, maybe I feel, because I hear people say this, not qualified to be an expert, even though I have all this hard-earned personal experience, but I don't have a master's degree or I don't have whatever, and I go, "Okay, I want to be a speaker." How do I start? Topher: Okay. And you don't have a book or you do have a book? Anna: You do have a book. You have your first book and you're like, "Okay, here we go with speaking. What do I do?" Topher: Perfect. Well, at the risk of sounding self-promotional, hire a speaking coach for one, because you could have the best information in the world and if you don't know how to present it in a palatable way, they're never going to book you back. So you absolutely want to do that. And by the way, you should probably get a media coach as well, because you're going to be asked to speak on TV or on the radio. And if you've never been in front of a camera or you've never had a microphone shoved in front of your face, it can be quite intimidating. Anna, you know this. You've done this for years. So for you, it's second nature. But if you can recall back to that first time you were on the bright lights in the camera, it's unnerving, right? And so you could have all the... The natural law of memory, it is inhibited when you are relaxed. It is enhanced when you're relaxed, it's inhibited when you're stressed. And nothing can cause more stress to a new time author than is the first time they're on a show. You could forget your damn name when you're on TV. So hire a media coach for sure or a speech coach. Topher: But beyond that, and I'm not trying to push my services either, I'm really not. What I'm saying, though, is that the delivery is as important as the knowledge. And that's the point that I want to make. Absolutely. Yeah. So you want to make sure you have that. Then once you do that, so the question is you're a new time... You want to break into the speaking gig, you need to have a one-sheet. It is the most important marketing piece for a speaker. It's more important than a sizzle reel, by the way, is the one sheet. The one-sheet is exactly what it sounds like. It's one piece of paper. It probably has your picture. It has your brief bio. It has a highlight of what you are going to learn in the keynote or one of the takeaways that the audience will get. And it probably has some quotes from people that are impressed by you that have some name notoriety that people if they were to see those quotes who go, "Well, if this person's saying they're good, they must be amazing." That's really all it is. Topher: And oftentimes, the one-sheet will make a bigger impact than the sizzle reel. Because the sizzle reel requires a computer to watch. And keep in mind, sometimes these board meetings where you've got the planner and you've got the board and they're all sitting around, they don't have time to sit there and watch 15 different speaker reels. So you're lucky if they'll watch it. They probably won't. What they're going to do is they're going to refer to the person who found you, who's [inaudible 00:09:02] and saying, "Hey, this is a great speaker. Here's their one sheet." And they look at it and they go, "Yeah, they look like they're smart. I like the photo. It was a professional headshot. It doesn't look like it's a stupid selfie." By the way, also be sure that you're investing in a good professional one sheet. And it just gives a quick highlight. That's oftentimes all they make the decision. They don't need to see the sizzle reel. Anna: I'm curious, so they'll book speakers without seeing how they speak. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. It depends. If you were referred to them, almost always they don't need to see the sizzle reel. If you're the one knocking on their door, doing the Oliver Twist, "Please sir, may I have a cup of porridge," then yeah, you might need to get them to watch the sizzle reel to know that you're good. But for the most part, you want to get your message out to as many people as possible so people who are on those committees hear about you and then they come to the committee and they go, "Oh my God, I saw this person on YouTube," or, "I saw this person on a podcast," or, "I heard this person on a podcast. They were amazing. I think they'd be great for our presentation." It can literally boil down to that. And they're like, "Yeah, good. Let's get them booked." Anna: Okay, but so then, and I remember how I solved this, here's the problem, you go, "Okay, I want to get booked. I don't have a sizzle reel because I've never spoken." So how do you get around that? Topher: Okay. Well, there are a couple of things. Nowadays, at the risk of aging myself, back in my day, it was hard to get video production. But nowadays, for crying out loud, you've got a 4k camera on your phone. You can set something up. It doesn't have to matter. Have a small event at your house if you have to, invite some people over. If you don't have a nice house, go to your friend's house who's got a nice house, I don't care. And do a quick presentation. Have it set up. The only thing that I'd recommend is that if you're going to set up an iPhone or a smartphone, don't use the microphone. As powerful as phones are in their high definition, 4k recording quality, they still suck when it comes to the recording of audio. So go get one... Nowadays, by the way, it used to be like an $800 lapel mic you'd have to get, nowadays, you can get it for 50 bucks, you can get these wireless lapel mics that plug right into your phone, you clip them, and the sound is just impeccable. It's beautiful. And just do something like that just so they know that when you get up in front of people, you're not going to stumble and fall and make a fool of yourself. It can literally be something as unofficial as that. Topher: But also, it's not that hard to get booked to speak nowadays. There are so many organizations from One Million Cups up to your chambers of commerce, all of the animal clubs, the Elks, the Moose, the Eagles, whatever. Those people are starving for speakers to come in. And just reach out to all of the local chapters, all of the local organizations that are in some level of professionalism and just say, "Hey, you know what? I've just published my first book. It's on this topic. And I think that your audience might benefit from it. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm just trying to get some exposure and some experience speaking in front of the stage. I would love to come out to your group and give them a 20 minute or a 30 minute or a 15-minute presentation," whatever it is that your keynote is, "And there's no catch. There's no sales pitch. I just want permission to record it so I can improve and do better later." And honestly, you could book yourself up a month straight with local chapters for organizations that are just looking for people to come out and speak to their audiences. Anna: That's an amazing, amazing tip. So let's say I have my book. How do I make my book into a speech? Topher: Okay. Remind me, by the way, before we get off this call, to share with your listeners some techniques on how to sell the hell out of their books when they speak without being a salesy, douche-baggy guy. So remind me to do that. Anna: Love it. Topher: So what your question was, how do you turn the book into a speech? So let's first break down what a speech comprises. A speech, the best analogy that I can give, and I'm going to roll credits to this, by the way, to a gentleman by the name of Bill Gove. Now, I did not learn directly from Bill. I learned from his mentee, which is a guy named Steve Seebold, and he's a good friend of mine. And Bill Gove by the way, is kind of like the grandfather of motivational speaking. He is the guy who started it all. All of the great speakers that we admire love today, most of them are trained by this guy named Bill Gove, 30, 40 years ago. And he had it so well. He said, "A keynote speech is nothing but..." I'm paraphrasing his statements here, "A keynote speech is nothing but a concert in spoken word." So you want to have, just like if you were to go to a concert, you want to have your songs rehearsed. You want to be able to know in what order those songs are going to be played. And you want to have practiced those songs so well that if something were to happen on stage, it wouldn't throw your game off. In fact, you could even improvise and play around with that a little bit and make it look like it's effortless. Topher: So think of your speech as a concert in spoken word. And your concert is broken down into short little songs. Yours are vignettes. And a great speech is made up of short little vignettes, no more than five minutes apiece, as short as 30 seconds apiece. And they are stacked together one after another, in whatever order makes the most sense for the flow and the feel of the concert, just like a concert. You want to start off with something dynamic, but not your best hit. You want to start off with something that just kind of warms up the crowd. And then you want to build up. And then at some point in time, you need to slow down and you need to relax and you got to put the ballad on. Because you can't have a concert that's just loud, nonstop. And then after the slow, then you got to build it back up again. And presentations have that same flow. I call it the charisma pattern, by the way, which is that there is a cadence to a presentation, which is you start off at a medium pace, you work up into a louder, faster pace, and then as you get louder and faster, then you drop it down to something slow and soft. Anna: It's interesting because a book, the best, the most effective way to do a memoir is to have your first two chapters be the bottom, the most dramatic, and then you move into childhood so that doesn't... And then you start going chronologically. And then around chapter eight, you catch up to whatever that first chapter was. And that's not what you do with speaking. Topher: No. Yeah. So interestingly enough, the same strategies and skills that make a great book a great book, do not translate into what makes a great presentation. Nor do great strategies and skills as a speaker in a live audience translate to being a great speaker on camera as well. There are differences between all of those things. But there are different environments. I'm glad that you brought that up. It makes a big difference. With the presentation, you don't want to start off with your best. You want to just kind of warm up the crowd a little bit. Because let's face it, they're still sussing you out. If they bought your book, at some level, they're kind of convinced. But remember, buying a book is this person has something I need and I want to hear it. But in a presentation and a keynote, it's completely the opposite. It's, "Who is this yahoo, and why do I have to sit here and listen to them speak?" Totally different market. So you kind of got to win them over. And if you go in too hard, too fast, you're like that guy at the bar who's just hitting on the girls a little bit too fast and too hard. Slow your roll, cowboy. Just bring it down a notch or two. Be cool. Anna: Yeah. You don't walk up and propose. Topher: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Or maybe you don't even walk up. Maybe you just sit there and just let them come to you. You got to know your game, right? Anna: Look at that. And so how do you know, do you need 10 anecdotes? How many do you need? Let's say this is a 10-minute speech. Do you need 10 anecdotes? Topher: Sure. Fantastic. Yeah. Listen, if you could do 10, I'll call them vignettes, because that's my language, but an anecdote is the same thing, yep, 10 anecdotes, 10 vignettes in 10 minutes would be an unbelievably awesome speech. Most people are not that well-rehearsed. They could maybe get two to three vignettes out in a 10-minute speech. Only a pro could do 10 in 10 minutes. And I always think back to, and I'm sure you've heard this quote, I believe it was Mark Twain, who said, "I apologize for not writing a shorter speech. I didn't have time." Or something to that effect. I'm sorry it was so long. I didn't have time to write a shorter one, or something like that. Anna: It's been attributed to so many people. Allegedly, it was a note to his wife, and who knows who he is. And it said, "I wanted to write you a short note. I wanted to..." Oh, you know. Yeah. That basically it's harder to do short than it is long is the point. Topher: Yeah, yeah. You get the idea. Same thing with the presentation. If I just wanted to tell some ideas and I didn't have them rehearsed, I would ramble on and on, I would get derailed, I would come back and I would be disheveled. And I would be like, "La, la, la, la." But on a keynote, you cannot do that. You have to have everything you're going to say rehearsed and prepared so you know how to do it. Now, the question is how many vignettes do I need for an amount of time? What I would say to that is this, it's not so much how many vignettes for a certain amount of time, it's just that do you know how much time each vignette takes? Topher: So create a vignette book with all the different stories that you have. And by the way, go into your book. This is back to your original question, how do you convert a book into a keynote? You take the best stories in your book. You bring them out of the book and you say, "Okay, what are the lessons or the big takeaways that this story in my book reveals?" And by the way, you could twist your stories just slightly to focus on something just slightly different. And one story you could have 10 or 15 different takeaways that you would use depending upon the audience that you're speaking with. So for example, oftentimes you'll hear keynote speakers, they'll say something like, "And we will customize the presentation to your audience." They don't. The good ones don't anyway. But what they do is they customize the takeaways to the audience, but the stories are always the same. And they're repeated the exact same way every single time with the right inflection because it's a song in spoken word. You got to practice it. But you do want to know what those takeaways and those lessons are. Topher: And then what I do is when somebody books me, I say, "Okay, well what are the current challenges that your company's dealing with? What are the things, what are the takeaways that your audience wants?" And then when they give those to me, then I go, "Okay, now what stories do I have that would fit into that category?" And then I'll apply that story to that takeaway. And then I just simply go, "All right, well, this is the number of takeaways," and I add up, this is a three-minute speech, this is a five-minute speech, this is a 30-second speech. And I add them all together and then I've got my presentation length. Now, sometimes though, your committees, your speaking committees, will go, "We just want them motivated. We just want them to be grateful that they're here at the conference. That's fine. We just want them having fun." "Okay, good. Then leave it up to me and I'll do my thing. How much time do you want me to speak?' And they'll say 45 minutes. And then you go, "Great." And then you go through and you put your song list together of all your different vignettes that add up to 45 minutes. Topher: Now, here's the cool thing about breaking a speech down into little bite-size vignettes. I have never in the history of speaking professionally in over 30 years, I have never, ever shown up for a keynote presentation where they have said, "Remember the agreed-upon time we asked you, that's exactly how much time we want you to speak." It has never ever, ever gone that way. This is always what happens. Once again, I'm speaking a little hyperbolic. I'm sure that I had one or two, but I just don't remember them. Topher: This is what normally will happen when somebody books you to speak. They'll come up to you backstage, usually five minutes before you're ready to go on, and they'll say something like this, they'll go, "Our next speaker is stuck at the airport. They're not going to be here. I know this is really last minute. I'm so sorry to ask this. I know we only asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but could you speak for 55 minutes?" or, "Could you speak for an hour and 15 minutes? If we have to pay you more, we will." By the way, they will say that too. But if they don't offer, by the way, that's fine. Just be cool. And they'll go, "Can you stretch it out to an hour and 15 minutes?" And then you go, "Absolutely. No problem. Because you know you've got a bank of other stories that didn't make the cut and you're just going to add a couple more of them in, not a big deal. Topher: Most commonly, though, that's not what's going to happen. Most commonly, they're going to come to you five minutes before your presentation and go, "Hey, I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes, but the vice president just showed up and he's on a tight deadline. He's got to get on a plane. He wants to get on stage a little bit of earlier. I hate to do this to you. I know we asked you to speak for 45 minutes. Could you cut your presentation down to 30 minutes?" That happens, I'm going to say that probably happens, and I'm not exaggerating 90-plus percent of the time that's what will happen. And then you smile and you go, "Absolutely, no problem." You don't throw a fit because now you just know, "I'm going to cut a few songs out of my playlist and I'm going to get it down to 30." Whereas if you design a 45-minute presentation that has a beginning and a middle, and then I'm going to tell them what I'm going to tell them, I'm going to tell them and I'm going to tell them what I'm told them, the old Dale Carnegie speech stuff, which is just dead and done now, that doesn't work. Because now what do you? Do you tell the promoter, "No, I'm sorry. My presentation is 45 minutes. I have to do 45." Topher: No, what'll end up happening is you go, "Okay," and then you're like, "How do I speak really fast to get it done?" And then you end up going over and you piss off the promoter and they never bring you back. So yeah, take your best stories out of your book, make a list of all the different lessons or takeaways that could come from them. Create your vignette book, which is all a different story. And by the way, you might have five different stories for one point. That's okay too because you know what? They might have loved that point so much you need to drive it home again, and then you have another story as well. But that's the most time-consuming and professional way to build a speech from a book. Take your best stories, pull out the takeaways, build it based upon the takeaways and the time. Anna: And is it have a 10-minute, a 20-minute, and a 40-minute version? Do you think that's- Topher: No. I think you should just have 30-second to five-minute vignettes. And then when somebody books you, you go, "Oh, I got a 15-minute speech? I'm going to pull out my three best five-minute vignettes," or, "I'm going to pull out my four best three and a half-minute vignettes." And then you just add them up that way. Yeah. If you do it that way, you'll be golden. But that takes practice. It takes preparation. And unfortunately, most people... And by the way, this is just the mark between a professional speaker and a professional who speaks, there's a difference there. The professional who speaks is working on their slide presentation the night before. The professional speaker doesn't even deal with slides because he knows that they're a hassle and is going to entertain the audience with their stories anyway. Topher: So a couple of other things. The biggest misconception that I think people make that aren't professional speakers that have been asked to speak and it's their first keynote presentation and they're nervous about it, they think that they need to wow the audience with all of this great information and you're going to change their minds and their hearts and their lives with this dialogue. I think getting in perspective what it is that the keynote speaker does is very helpful. Your job, in my opinion, and I think if you were to talk to most professional speakers, people who run the circuit and they do this for a living, I think that most would probably agree, your job is not to change their lives in 45 minutes. Your job is to entertain the crap out of them for 45 minutes. Get them to laugh, get them to cry, get them to feel, get them to emote. Entertain them for 45 minutes. Don't try to change their lives. Topher: Which means you don't need a bunch of slides. You don't need a bunch of bullet points. You're not teaching them strategies and techniques and steps and processes. You're simply telling them stories and entertaining them. And if you do that, think about entertainment, emotion, don't worry about the content, don't worry about having them walk away with three successful strategies. Most people aren't taking notes anyway. Remember, they didn't even know who you were five minutes before you got on stage. So don't think that they're sitting there with baited breath and a pen and paper going, "Entertain me with your amazing words." They're just not going to be there. And I will say this, these smartphones have become the world's best feedback tool for speakers, because you will know exactly how good you are as a speaker based upon how many blue lights you see, glowing faces from the audience. Because they'll be on their phone. If you can see phones lighting up, you know you've lost them. Because they're, "Ah, screw this guy. I'm going to check my text messages now." And so they start- Anna: That's the worst. Topher: It is the worst. Yeah. Anna: But, speaking of the phone, I will say what I do to prep is I do it into my phone, then I listen, then I do practice again, then I listen again, then I practice again, then I listen again. I find listening when I'm practicing really, really as helpful as the practice. Topher: Yeah, absolutely. Now I will tell you this, by the way, technology has made our job so much easier as well. There's a difference between... By the way, as an author, everybody knows this, the typed word is different than the spoken word. If you just transcribe audio into a book, it's an average book. I hope I don't offend some of your readers, your listers. Anna: Yeah, they know that. Topher: Yeah. Don't transcribe your work. It just doesn't sound... It doesn't translate. Well, guess what? It doesn't translate the other way as well. You don't want to sit there and recite or memorize your book because that's not human speech as well. But I do believe that there is a need for a script when you're starting your presentation in your rehearsal. So one of the best strategies right now is to use otter.ai, I think is that software. Holy heck, that thing is incredibly good. So just hit record, start telling your stories and talking, and then it'll transcribe for you. And then you go through. And the strategy that I like is to take three highlighters, a green highlighter, a yellow highlighter, and a red highlighter. Topher: And I go through the script after it's been transcribed, and I read through and I highlight red, yellow, green, red is unnecessary dribble, yellow is, "I like it if I have time," and green is, "This is so good I have to keep it in the presentation." And go through the entire speech and just highlight it red, yellow, green, red, yellow, green. And if you're like me and you're being honest, you'll have mostly red, a lot of yellow, and just a few greens. When you're just talking a story out, it'll take 20 minutes sometimes. And you can edit that down to a two-minute story if you give it the time and the attention that it needs, for sure. Anna: So great. We have to get close to wrapping up. So how do you sell that book from the stage without sounding douchey? Topher: Yeah. Okay. I learned this technique from a guy named Tom Antion. He is one of the few people that when he sends me spam email, I read it because the man just generally makes me laugh. His sales copy is just hilarious. And this was his technique. In fact, I think he had a presentation called How to Sell from the Stage Without Being a Douchebag, I think is what it was called. I was like, "I love this guy already." Here's the technique. You have on stage your book, but you're not going to hold it up and say it's for sale or anything like that. All you do is you take one small piece from your book which is a really golden gem, and you just pick it up and you go, "Let me just read something for you real quick." And then you open it and you just read 2, 3, 4 lines, that's it. And just read it, and you set it down. You can say, "I just want to read something from my book." You can say that. But you just read it. Topher: But you're not saying it's for sale. You're not saying it's $29.95, but today you can buy a copy for $10. You don't say any of that stuff. You just read one paragraph out of your book and then you set it down, respectfully, it's a nice piece of art. Set it down. Yep. Don't just throw it off to the side. Set it down. And then you continue with your presentation. That's it. That's all you do. You just read one small... And what happens is people get obsessed. They're like, "I loved what he just read," and they make this assumption, "The rest of the book must be just as good." And they want to buy it. Yeah. And I will tell you, literally, I saw my book sales, I'm not exaggerating, they probably jumped 60%, maybe more. I remember calling Tom going, "Tom, you are a genius. I tried that." And every person I've told that to, they do this technique and they're like, "People were running into the back to buy my book." I'm like, "Yeah, I can't even really explain it other than I think they feel that was so profound, the rest of the book must be just as profound." Anna: And you're doing that thing where you're closing the loop, like how marketing people will talk about how you sort of give the first part so that people are psychologically very invested in whatever the ending is. Topher: Yeah. Well actually, let's talk about that. Because once again, going back to the biggest mistake people make because they want to give, give, give, give, give, just give so much value, so much content, so much information, if you have 10 steps to transforming your life, don't try to talk about all 10 steps. But here's what you could do. You could say something like this. You could say something to the effect of, "For the past 25 years, I've been trying to narrow down what it takes to succeed in speaking into the most succinct, small, and easy to get patterns. And I've discovered that there are five things, that if every speaker does these five things, they will hands down get standing ovations, sell books at the back of the room without having to sell it. And out of those five, here's the one that I want to talk about today." Anna: Oh, that's so good. Topher: Right. And now, you didn't say, "But we don't have time to go through all," or you say, "Here's five, but I'm only going to give you one today. But if you want to buy the others, you can." No, you just say, "There are five things. And here's the one that I think is the most relevant today." You make it like, "I picked this one just for you guys." And what a beautiful open loop. They want to know what the other ones are. And by the way, maybe that chapter one, that's that good thing, the big, whatever your 10 steps are, that's the one you... Be the good one. Anna: Well, Topher, this has been absolutely fantastic. Tell people how they can reach you. And this is reaching you for help converting their book into a speech as well as help training. Topher: Yeah, sure. They can go to tophermorrison.com. That's probably the easiest way to do it. Tophermorrison.com. Yeah. And I have a book on public speaking. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. I get to say I wrote the book on public speaking. Not being self-aggrandizing, it's just the name of the book. It's called The Book on Public Speaking. So they can go to their Amazon and get that if they want to as well. Yeah. But listen, I've got tons of YouTube videos for free. Listen, they don't have to buy anything. They can get a lot of my stuff for free. They just go to YouTube and search for my name. Anna: Except of course, by giving out these gems, you were doing exactly what you advise people to do in a speech, which is giving the gem so that they go, "Well, God, booking him and reading that book must just be even better."  Topher: Listen, hey, I'm a squirrel trying to get a nut just like everybody else. So I'd be honored if somebody feels so inspired and they would like to do business with me. I would love that. But believe me, I'm just here because I think the world of you. I remember meeting you so many years ago and had such a blast with you. For you to reach back out to me so many years, I was just like, "Oh, this just made my day." I was just thrilled that you reached out. You made my day. Anna: You're the best. Thank you so much for doing this. And you know, you listeners, thank you so much for listening. I will talk to you next week. RELATED EPISODES How Do I Use My Book to Get Speaking Gigs? 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INTRODUCTION:Entwine was developed by Anna, a breast cancer survivor, for people with a low sex drive, celibates, and those who avoid sex due to physical pain.Because of her treatment, sex became uncomfortable both physically and emotionally. After her divorce, she found it difficult and intimidating to re-enter the dating scene out of fear of rejection from those that may not understand her situation.  She soon realized that many of the dating apps available had similarities; none of them offered an opportunity to find someone who had similar sexual limitations.She found herself in a space that she soon discovered many others were in – single and looking for companionship.  INCLUDED IN THIS EPISODE (But not limited to):·      A Dating App for People with Sexual Dysfunction·      Broken Vaginas·      Surviving Breast Cancer·      Erectile Dysfunction·      The Struggles of Starting an App·      Self Esteem Related to Sexual Limitations·      Sexual Implications for Veterans·      The Value Men Place on Sexual Performance·      Reassessing Our Value Systems CONNECT WITH ANNA: Website: https://www.entwinedating.comFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/entwinedatingIG: https://www.instagram.com/entwine_dating/Twitter: https://twitter.com/entwinedatingYouTube: https://bit.ly/3J552FzLinkedIn: https://bit.ly/3uqBdLk  CONNECT WITH DE'VANNON: Website: https://www.SexDrugsAndJesus.comYouTube: https://bit.ly/3daTqCMFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/SexDrugsAndJesus/Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexdrugsandjesuspodcast/Twitter: https://twitter.com/TabooTopixLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/devannonEmail: DeVannon@SexDrugsAndJesus.com DE'VANNON'S RECOMMENDATIONS:·      Pray Away Documentary (NETFLIX)o  https://www.netflix.com/title/81040370o  TRAILER: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tk_CqGVfxEs ·      Upwork: https://www.upwork.com ·      FreeUp: https://freeup.net ·      Disabled American Veterans (DAV): https://www.dav.org ·      American Legion: https://www.legion.org INTERESTED IN PODCASTING OR BEING A GUEST?:·      PodMatch is awesome! This application streamlines the process of finding guests for your show and also helps you find shows to be a guest on. The PodMatch Community is a part of this and that is where you can ask questions and get help from an entire network of people so that you save both money and time on your podcasting journey.https://podmatch.com/signup/devannon TRANSCRIPT:[00:00:00]You're listening to the sex drugs and Jesus podcast, where we discuss whatever the fuck we want to! And yes, we can put sex and drugs and Jesus all in the same bed and still be all right at the end of the day. My name is De'Vannon and I'll be interviewing guests from every corner of this world as we dig into topics that are too risqué for the morning show, as we strive to help you understand what's really going on in your life.There is nothing off the table and we've got a lot to talk about. So let's dive right into this episode.De'Vannon: Hello hello. Hello everyone. And welcome to another installment of the sex, drugs and Jesus podcast. I'm your host. De'Vannon Hubert. And I am so thankful that you are with me again on today. So on today's episode, I'm talking with a woman by the name of Anna Leonarda. She's a breast cancer survivor, and she's gifted the world with a dating app called Entwine that's E N T W I N E. Now this app is for those who may not be able to, or prefer not to fully engage in sexual intercourse.[00:01:00] Now we all know what a big deal sexual dysfunction is in the world today. You know, sometimes our bodies just don't do what we want them to do. Now, in this episode, we're going to talk about. Sexual implications for veterans, we're talking about how self-esteem can be related to sexual limitations. And we're also going to cover things like the value men and place on sexual performance, which is a huge deal in and of itself.Pay close attention to this episode, stay tuned because I think you're going to get a lot out of it.Anna uh, you bad-ass bitch shoe. Are you today? Anna: Perfect. How are you doingDe'Vannon: I'm fam fucking tastic. My new year is off to a phenomenal fucking start. My health is great. My wealth is great. My mind is great. My cats are great. My boyfriend's great. My gardens. Great. Everything's great. Anna: Great [00:02:00] Great to hear.De'Vannon: So I was looking forward to this here episode because we are going to talk about vaginas in. How they can be broken and everything. And you created a dating app called in twine, which we're going to really get into. And of course, all of this information will be in the show we notes as they always are. You created an app specifically centered for people who have a sexual dysfunction. Be it, be it men with erectile dysfunction women with, as you coin, it broke vaginas. She said that I can say that so she can get away with it. Anna: Yeah.De'Vannon: And so, so it's a really cool app that you've made in a service that you're now offering to the public. But before we go down that delicious path, and we're going to talk about you, you, you, you, you, and what led you to this here. And so any opening words you have for the world. Anna: Just [00:03:00] get ready for my broken vagina story. definitely unique.De'Vannon: So I say, well, wait, so we've got to work in, reverse it for a little bit. So I read about when I was researching you or read that you had you're a breast cancer survivor. Anna: Yes.De'Vannon: So I want you to talk to me about what the emotions were like, like, walk me through your emotions. When you found out you got this diagnosis, do you remember where you were. Anna: Yeah, I was actually, well, when I found the breast lump, I was in the shower. I was 36 years old and I just, right prior to that, I lost like 18 pounds willingly. So I was like, finally, I look, this is the weight I want to be at. I feel great. I look great. I felt confident for a change. And so then I was in the shower and I happened to have a bar soap in my hand.And I was, I happened to cross off a lump on my breast and I thought, well, this is weird. It's never been there before, but I mean, because I lost my weight, that's where I found it, but that's why I found it. And and [00:04:00] I was just like, well, it's probably nothing. And I worked at, in the pathology department at, at the time as a secretary.So I thought, well, you know, most people that come in there, they're older that get diagnosed with breast cancer or any kind of cancer. So. The next day I got went to the gynecologist and just a couple of months prior to that, she was telling me I needed to get a mammogram. She's like, you know, you're 30, 30, 6 now.You need to start thinking about getting a mammogram and mats. I don't need to do that. I'm too young. So so when I went to her, she was like, well, yeah, it feels like a lump is probably nothing, but so long story short, I ended up getting the biopsy and and I had to wait a whole seven days for the results and was psychotic.I mean, I kind of had an idea of something was up because the people that I'm friends with in the pathology department were like, are you doing okay, honey? I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. Why? Well, you know, w just wondering, and, and so it was a lot of emotions coming through. Cause I was like, wait, is something wrong with me?Cause why are there being so sweet to me now? You know? So [00:05:00] it was a lot of paranoia going on too. Isn't it? That, well, maybe I do have cancer. And and one of my friends is like, you know, you need to call your doctor. It's just, these results are not good because she couldn't give me the results because you just knew I was like freaking out.And so yeah, I had breast cancer. I was like, whoa. I mean, it was on my mom's 60th birthday. I was at her house celebrating her birthday. And I didn't tell her that I even had a biopsy. Cause I thought, man, it's nothing. Anyway. So yeah, it was a little, little shocking. And then I ended up getting ended up having actually three tumors in my left breast, which was just like, I had no idea I had cancer.I thought I felt great. I looked great. I didn't feel sick. You know, I didn't look sick. And so it's definitely very life-changingDe'Vannon: Was there a family history there of the Panther or. Anna: but my one cousin had it when she was in her thirties, but that's it like, there was like, no, no cancer at all that I know of in my family. Lucky me. Yay. [00:06:00]De'Vannon: Well, all things happened. Where were you the Monday? How were you able to, so you said you're cancer-free as of today. Anna: Yes. Nine years.De'Vannon: So how were you able to overcome that? Anna: Well, I had to have multiple surgeries and six, six surgeries to be exact with mastectomies, double mastectomy, and then also reconstruction surgery. And my cancer was fed by estrogen. So the goal is to get all the estrogen out of my body, which can cause low sex drive. And so I had to go through chemotherapy.I lost all my hair and and then, because I wanted to get rid of all my estrogen, I decide to have a total hysterectomy as well. So, so I was forced into menopause at a young age. So a little was a little hard on my body, but but I managed to where the chemo wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, which was helpful because I had two young kids at the time and I still wanted to be a mom.I didn't want to. To suffer and or show anybody that I was [00:07:00] struggling. I felt like I was supporting everybody else around me or reassuring them because they're crying all around me. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. I'm so sad for you. And so I'm like, no, it's okay. I'll be all right. I'm patting him on the shoulder and I'm like, wait a minute.I'm supposed to be comforting me. But so I was pretty strong through the whole thing. I don't think I've ever really dealt with my emotions with with all the cancer stuff that I had to go through, but, but it, but I went through, I was determined to beat it. I wanted to be there for my kids. And here I am.SoDe'Vannon: Well, congratulations, bitch. Anna: thank you.De'Vannon: I'm glad to have you here now. Okay. So you mentioned that your cancer that you.used to have was fed by estrogen. So in order to defeat that It caused you to have a low sex drive. Once the cancer was gone, that your sex drive.Anna: It didn't. So I actually lost my second. I actually never really had a sex drive, to be honest with you. So when I, when I grew up, I had something called [00:08:00] endometriosis and that causes painful intercourse, which eventually led to lack of libido. And then so I have always struggled with low beetle. So the chemo and the treatment, everything made it even worse.Cause there was more, even more pain and, and dryness involved.De'Vannon: Okay. Anna: my, vagina broke before my chemo, before my cancer,De'Vannon: Right. So, cause when I was research and you are read that something happened after you had your second child in what do you think it, do you think it was a stress of the pregnancy that kind of like pushed your body over the edge or. Anna: as far as the, the broken vagina thing or the the cancer.De'Vannon: Well, no, as far as the broken vagina thing, like what happened after you had the second child? Because I was reading about it in your blog, you were saying like you had your second child, like something changed like in your body. Was it, did it everything become more painful then, or. Anna: It was always painful. So I [00:09:00] think with the endometriosis, it, it was always, since it was always painful over time, my vagina was just like, get the hell away from me, whatever it's coming at me. So, so I ended up trying, I was trying to have intercourse with my, my ex-husband and and it was like, nothing would go in there.It was like, it was like hitting a wall. I'm like, what the heck is going on with me? So I went to the doctor and she said well, you have vaginismus. And I'm like, what the heck is that? And she's like, well, you're the opening of your vagina is it's just as fascinating mean because it's probably just anticipating the pain that it's just.It's it's that's this natural reaction is to just kind of spasm up and not allow anything to, to enter there. And so I was supposed to go through physical therapy or pelvic floor therapy, and that involved, like using these dilators where I had to slowly stretch the vaginal opening, which is a long process and not, not pleasurable for sure. And it's like, the size of the pinky is the first [00:10:00] side of the dilator. And then once you're comfortable with that, then you move up to the next size and then you just keep graduating to the largest size, which has Godzilla, which I would never use because it's like, I don't want to size, it was just enormous.I didn't know how to explain it. So I just call it Godzilla size. So I just put that in the drawer way in the back. We've covered up. So, so I asked the therapist, why does this happen? And she said, well, it's your body's natural reaction because what's happening is if somebody comes up to you repeatedly and starts punching you in the stomach, once that person approaches you, you're going to start flinching and your muscles are going to tighten.And you're going to kind of back up to avoid that pain. Vince is patient of the pain. So she's so I said, so basically my vagina broke. So that's the easy way of saying it has my vagina broke. So yeah, so that's what I was doing. Those, those, I did the treatments for a little bit. And then again, it was just like very, it was a very slow process.So there's a cure for it. I just chose not to do it. And then when I got breast cancer, I didn't even want to think about using my dilators. My oncologist is like, [00:11:00] well, this is estrogen fed. Your libido is going to be non-existent for a while. I'm like, well, it already is. I mean, I don't even know how much, how much more, how much more possible is it going to be worse, but it was, it got even more dry and.De'Vannon: How did that cause. and.when all of this was going on. Anna: Yeah, I met my ex-husband when I was in eighth grade. And then, so he was my one and only, and I was, we were married for 20 years. We got divorced three years ago.De'Vannon: So how did, can you talk to me about the sort of stress that this caused in your marriage when you were going through. Anna: It was, he was patient. I just feel like it was, it was hard for me because I, I just, I felt like I was always making up excuses, like trying to stay up, let him fall asleep first. So I had to avoid it. So I, that probably didn't help the marriage at all. And eventually, you know, the level of intimacy kind of diminished in all ways, [00:12:00] because it was just something I always had to deal with.So it was never really said that it was in the back of my head. I feel like that's one of the reasons why definitely that you kind of. Distance distance ourselves. But so yeah, it definitely takes a toll.De'Vannon: So you're so it's a, you were saying like, okay, so intercourse is painful. Anything that you would certainty your vagina hurt? So I was reading where even a tampon, trying to put a tampon in there is like, was like super, super painful. So this is this pain exclusive to anything penetrating the vagina or what about that?Anna: trulyDe'Vannon: And external stimulation does that hurt too with these medical conditions? Anna: after the, I guess it's not as enjoyable, enjoyable as it probably should be, but after all my surgeries, it's more like just, I'd rather not [00:13:00] any kind of contact right now or ever, I guess I should say so. It's, it's just very sensitive and not in a good way. So.De'Vannon: Interesting. Okay. So. Then this, so we can shift gears from here and to entwine. So.I want you to tell us what your motivation was for creating this, this, this dating app. And this is spelled E N T w I N E. And also want to know what this name means and how you came up with that. Anna: Sure. As far as the name of why I called it in twine, I was going to call it, going to call it comfortable companions. And I was told by many that, that sounds like diapers. So don't do that. I'm like, oh my God, I guess it's probably hard to remember comfortable companions though. So so the, the app developers I did use, they ended up giving me a bunch of options of what I should use.And then when they set [00:14:00] in twine and I'm like, well, I in twining hearts people's lives together or whatever the heck. So I thought, yeah. And twine sounds good. So it's not a very exciting story. That's why we called it in.De'Vannon: Okay. So Was all the, all your medical conditions and things going on with your body, your motivation for starting this app and like how your marriage into what, tell me in your own words, why you wanted to go through the, the the rigor Moreau, because y'all starting an app. Isn't just as simple as like making like a Gmail account, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's complex as fuck.And it takes a lot of time, money, resources, and dedication. So this is not like it's not just like simple to start an app, especially something like this as a dating app is running algorithms and all of that. Why did you want to go through all of the painstaking tasks that you had to go through to bring this app, this app to fruition?Anna: So when I was married, [00:15:00] my girlfriends would go on traditional dating apps and I would say, Hey, how was your date? And they're like, you know, I mean, every guy in meat so far has ed and rocked all this function. And I was like, how old are they? Well, they're in their thirties or they're in their forties. And I'm like, well, what are the reasons why they have that?And, and they would say like, well, one of them has diabetes and other one might have antidepressants that he's taking or prostate surgery or whatever the reason is. And and I thought, well, why don't you save their numbers so that when I'm, if I'm ever divorced, you know, I'll go, I'll date them.Because if I, I thought to myself, if ever, if I'm ever single, I'd rather either just be single forever, because I thought to have to have that stress of wondering, you know, if that person could understand that I don't want to have intercourse. So I'm like, I'll just either stay single or I'd rather deal with guy with ed.So I'm like, there should be like a. Dating app for guys with EDD. And then I remember talking about it and then I'd let, let left it alone. Dropped it. And then I don't know, eight years later, that's when I got divorced and I thought [00:16:00] again, I'm like, I think I'm going to be single. I don't want to be with anybody.No, one's going to understand this. They're going to cheat on me. They're to they're not, they're not going to get it. And so then I thought, well, that's not fair for what the heck. I I've been through all this stuff for, there's a reason why I went through all this. And the reason I thought at first was to help people go and tell my friends, if you know anybody that's going through a cancer scare has breast cancer, whatever it is, Kevin can reach out to me.And that's what I would do. I would talk to people I'm like, no, I need to do something more. So I thought, what about these guys that have ed? How many times, you know, are they going to get rejected before they just give up? And so I thought I need to do something about it. So that's why I decided to create a dating app for it.Cause I thought. I want to help more people. It's not just me though that I want to help some, I'm still single. I'm not using the dating app yet, but eventually I will just want to kind of focus on getting the app established and getting more users. But so then I thought, well, I gotta do this. And I was a stay at home mom.I worked part-time as a, at the [00:17:00] time I got diagnosed, I was a secretary at pathology, but then then I was a stay-at-home mom and I also worked part-time as a medical transcriptionist. So I thought I have no business background and my, what am I going to do? How am I going to figure all this out? So I started doing some research and I found an app company that took like extreme advantage of me, meaning they stole a lot of money from me because I didn't know anything about business and they knew it and they wanted they want an equity in my app right away.So I was like, no, I said, I don't know, maybe like, well, we'll give you a discount services. And, and I, you know, it sounded great at the time because I was running out of money. So I used all my savings and and, and I thought, well, they don't want equity because they care about my app. They care about people.They want equity cause they wanna make money. So I decided to tell them, no, I don't want equity. I don't want you to have equity. And then after that, everything went downhill and stupid errors and glitches and oh, you want to fix, you want to put a notification on the envelope, [00:18:00] say you have a match.Okay. That's gonna cost you something like this functionality, you know, it was like stuff like that. So everything went downhill. And so I ended up taking the code and leaving and I was like I said, I'm done. I have no more money. I can't do this anymore. And then I thought this is not, this is not right. I mean, I thought I was going to give up.And but I couldn't cause I'm like this again. Why did I go through all this? It's not because I'm for me to just get taken advantage of and quit. I'm not gonna let anybody take my dream. So so I found another app guy and he was he's great. And he yeah. Took care of it, of the professional of the cost.And, now we're live end of August of last year.De'Vannon: Girl, you think I'm right. You don't let anybody take your dream. It's it's a fucking hassle when you, when you fall into the den of vultures like that, and it happens to all of us it's happened to me. But you know, I would encourage people who were trying to start businesses or apps or whatever, you know, to keep [00:19:00] trying. But you know, now there's websites out there like Upwork free up where you can hire people from all sorts of. Th technological backgrounds. And the beautiful thing is those websites will act as an intermediary and they hold the money. So that, that other person doesn't get paid until the work is done and it's done.Right. And they negotiate everything for you so that you don't have the fuckery, like what you went through and everything like that. I've been through that myself and it can be discouraging. I had issues like that with started my podcast and writing my first book. You know, but you just got to keep on doing it, like, like what you said, but my God, you just want to strangle the people who took advantage of you. Anna: Yeah.Even like I just found out recently, I was looking at, there was these graphics that they created. They said they created. And I remember saying, oh, can you change the graphics a little bit? And they're like, well, they're custom hand drawn graphics. So it's going to take some time off to give you another estimate.[00:20:00]And this was what it's supposed to in 2019. They use them and I just found out from another dating app that just got launched. I was just downloaded it just to look at it. And I found one of my graphics on her app. So like that wasn't custom, they told me it was hand drawn and it wasn't even the stuff like that.I was like, how could someone, how could a company be like that? You know, for me, it's just frustrating. Just I knowDe'Vannon: You got them out there, honey, but you knowwhat? We don't move forward. Anna: that's right. I know I got to stop looking at the past. That's my problem is I keep going back anymore.De'Vannon: You know, it's, it's good too, for the purposes of like, say this interview to talk about that so that other people can know that they are technological solutions and safeguards to this now. So, but yeah, when we were alone and thinking, I fall into that trap too, sometimes of like anger might rise up in me, then I try to, you know, I gotta realign myself and focus on what is working and not let those people [00:21:00] take my joy anymore. Anna: Exactly. I'm tired of people taking my joy. So De'Vannon: Not no more. Anna: that's right.De'Vannon: So so let's get more granular and let's dig into exactly the uniqueness of entwine. Tell me like the typical male person who's going to be on here. Typical female person are there. Trans people and I saw them there. They're like two guys kissing and everything like that. So I know it's LGBTQ plus friendly.So what are like the sex options and all the sexual orientation options that you have. Anna: So, because the app is very basic because of funding. So I had to start off with. then are you interested in male, female or both? So that's what we have for now, but my goal is to have it available for everybody because that's how it should be. And just because of costs, unfortunately, I wasn't able to, to expand on that, but that's my that's one [00:22:00] of my main goals is to do that.De'Vannon: Okay. So then within the. Within the parameters that.you have established, give you an example of the sort of guy who would come on, come on your app and the sort of girl what's it going on in their life? Are you seeing certain income ranges, certain typical occupations? Just, just give me an example of a male or female and female profile. Anna: So since the app ended up launching the end of August, there's not a ton of users. That's probably get into that later where how it's very hard to get a hold of users that are that have sexual limitations. But it's so when. I noticed that the ones that I do have, so they had to put down, if they're male, female, then they still had to say their, their age, their location.Do they smoke? Do they drink? And do they have kids? So it's very basic, but of course down the road, it'll be more more of an algorithm that filter. So And I noticed that the feud that I had signed up, I'm actually friends with them. And [00:23:00] then I'm like, do you have sexual dysfunction? There was one guy that signed up and he's like, no, I don't, but I just, I'm tired of meeting these women that it's all they want.And I'm okay with not having intercourse. I rather, because they think they're okay with other floors and intimacy and they're okay with not having intercourse. I don't say sex cause it could be oral or whatever. So and then the same thing with the women. They're like, I'm just tired of these guys. You know, they're just, that's all they ever do is, you know, that's all they want.And so I have a few women that sign up that they didn't, they don't have that issue and they just did because they, they want something different work, more of that emotional connection rather than the physical. So so it's, it's a variety for now. I don't know that occupations or anything like that yet.Cause it's not in there and they can type as much as they want in the about me sections. They don't have to say what their limitations are until they meet the person. So there's no pressure there because of. I probably mean myself. I tell everybody my vagina's broken, but there might be someone else.They went through sexual trauma. They may not want to put that in that, in that [00:24:00] description.De'Vannon: So then it sounds like not, oh, intimacy is off the table. So it sounded like people who are sexually able can go on here. They are open-minded to being with people who are not sexually. Abel. And then even within the realms of both, they might be other things they can get into Anna: Right.De'Vannon: exactly what sex is, not the sin, sin, sin, central focus. Anna: Exactly.De'Vannon: So what, so there was a statement that I read that you wrote in and said that no one really thinks about people that can't, that can't have intercourse. Can you, and I feel like that that's a, that's a huge motivating factor into why that, that did you create this app in order to create an inclusive space For people who have sexual dysfunction? So can you walk me through some of like the emotions that maybe you and people, you know, who are, who are suffering from sexual dysfunction, this [00:25:00] isolation that it seems like you talk about because it almost seems like there's a feeling of being discarded or are devalued here.Anna: For example, when I I'm in a couple of erectile dysfunction, Facebook support groups, and there'll be men on there and there. I don't know why I'm living anymore. I'm going to be single forever. No, one's going to accept me for my issue. And I'm like, I don't want to, I want to jump on there and be like, no, don't think that there's people out there like women like myself that don't mind if you have a broken Dick.I mean, I guess I could say that, right. Because I have a broken vagina. Right. De'Vannon: You can say anything you. want, girl, they all. Anna: So I can't really comment because I don't want to get kicked out of the cause they say, oh, you're promoting your abalone, my ups free, but, okay. So, and they don't know that they're, that they have these options and, and then there's all these women that have the same thing where there are in my breast cancer group.So the vaginismus groups, it was like 17,000 women in the vaginismus groups. And like how many people have a broken vagina that couldn't believe it? [00:26:00] And the ones that are saying like I'm just going to stay with my husband because. No one else is going to want to be with me. I can't have sex and throw in like an abusive relationship and they don't, they don't want to go anywhere else.And and guys that cheat and say rude things to them. And, and I thought, that's, this is why my app has made. And, and then I started hearing some cruel comments myself, and it made me think like this, this app is needed because the regular traditional dating apps don't think about, they don't cater to people that have sexual limitations.That's like a given it's like, okay, after the third, fourth date, we're probably going to have sex. And imagine that pressure of a guy or a girl, it's a think like, when am I going to tell this person that I can have intercourse? You know, are they going to make fun of me? Are they going to reject me my own?Be embarrassed. That's a lot of pressure. And, and for me, I, I did this right away. So if I started meeting I started since I started, since I got divorced, I started going out more and I started meeting men and. [00:27:00] Hey, you have kind of your number you want to go to for dinner. I'm like, well, let me tell you about the dating app I created.And then I started telling him about my issue and the variety of answers are pretty insensitive. So it just, again, confirms that there needs to be something like in twine to be like a safe, comfortable spot for people that have these limitations to find companionship. But when I told this guys this, but my broken vagina though, like w w a few of, several of them said well, you have other holes do like anal.I'm like, well, first of all, I don't even know you for you to even ask me that is just for going rude. But, and I said, you have other holes. It's like, really that's really classy. And also and our, I hear like, well, you know, the perfect reason why a guy wouldn't want to be with you. It was a good one, too, you know?And you have, you should never get married. You should never have a boyfriend because you'll never make them happy because you can't have sex. I'm like, it's just horrible. [00:28:00] But it's been for me, I I'm strong enough to handle it. I wasn't like crying, but eventually like a sensitive woman that just got sexually assaulted and then she knows or whatever, however, history of it.And then she hears that. I mean, that's horrible to, you may not never want to go on the dating scene again. At least I wouldn't have, you know, but I'm just prepared to you're thinking really hard. I could see it. I could hear it. I could see the wheels spinning.De'Vannon: Well, yeah. You're giving me a lot to think about, and I'm absolutely feasting on this, on this knowledge over here, there's so much. So much pain and what you're talking about in so much rejection and so much fear of rejection, and nobody deserves to live like that. It's, it's reminding me of when I first contracted HIV and hepatitis a B, and I was thinking the same thing, like, okay, who was going to want to be with me now? At what point do I tell them this? You know, how does this go? And, you know, you see now, [00:29:00] like on the, on the dating apps now, especially the gay dating apps you can put on there, whether or not you're HIV positive undetectable already. So, but at first it was, I liked that, but, you know, and you had to determine a point, but now you can put it on there.And so, you know, anybody who responds back to you or who reaches out to you as you know, that they're okay with that. But I understand what it's like to have that fear of, okay. Are they gonna want to keep me around after I tell them this is a weakness about me, you know, or not. And so You know, some people are like totally cool with dating someone who has HIV and some people want to head for the Hills and everything like that. And, and it sounds like it's the same thing that's going on in the sexual dysfunction world. Now I want to say, fuck you to all the assholes out there, like the people who were taught, who, who, who were talking to you and yet, you know, women do have other holes, but there is a class that your way to, to bring up because, you know, on the one hand, you know, if you're talking about sexual [00:30:00]dysfunction, the holes that can not be used, that conversation is on the table.And so yes, assholes can be asked about, but it could be done, you know, a little bit more class or something like that. You know, it like, Anna: Moved down the road and be like on the fourth day maybe or something that I didn't even go on a date yet. I was already asking about my whole holes.De'Vannon: That's a smooth question. Like, you know, lo Hey, well, what else might you be interested in? And, you know, and then just let you answer it. And if they're answered it and come up with, then they can assume that this is off limits. Anna: would be nicer, but yeah, and my girlfriends they're like, why don't you, why don't you wait to tell the guy that you have your broken vagina issue? And I said, well, why so I can just like, get emotionally attached because I get, I seem to get more emotionally attached to anything. Cause it's, it's I don't want to wait until I'm like four dates in and then all of a sudden I'd be like, oh, I really liked this guy.Oh, by the way, I have the sister. And then, then he says, oh, you have other holes. I'll be like, I couldn't, I kind of handle that. But if there's no emotional connection yet or attachment, [00:31:00]then I'd rather them know then and have to have them make a decision right at the time. Cause we usually, when I think, well, 99% of them that I did talk to they're like we never went on a date actually.I'd never been on a date. So since I've been divorced cause. Seeing the find the guy that is just like, I'm not, I mean, looking though I should say, but even if it's just like, I don't want them to convince themselves that they don't need intercourse either, because that's another thing they might do that like, well, I guess I don't need any more.I, you know, I'm going to have a bunch of heavy D myself probably, you know? So I think no don't convince yourself because then in the back of my head, it's going to be like, either I need to fix my vaginismus, it's treatable, but I don't want to fix it for me. I'd rather fix it for myself and somebody else.So it's a.De'Vannon: Well open relationships with something that I don't think It should be off the table, really like ever, but especially, [00:32:00] you know, in this sort of situation, because like, like an open relationships, you know, if, if you have like two people who are in a couple and they allow each other to have sexual experiences with other people, given whatever their rules and boundaries might be, it oftentimes doesn't include any sort of emotional exchange with whoever the extra people are going to be.And so I could see that. And I'm curious what your, what your opinion is you know, on this. So if you have say like one person who is sick, that's able to have sex in other one, who's not really, really enjoyed each other's company and companionship about letting the person who can have sex, maybe have that sex with someone else, you know, but actually building like your core life with, you know, the one person who can have sex in the one person who can not, what are your thoughts on that?Anna: I think for me, that's I wouldn't be able to handle it. I know there's, there's a lot of individuals that can do that, but I feel like if somebody's [00:33:00] intimate like that, having sex, that there's gotta be some kind of connection there or some kind of emotional connection in my head. But like if I was with somebody now, that's just like, like if I, for my, for my ex husband, I just said, well, you can't have sex with me.So go somewhere else and get somewhere else. I was still like, that would really bother me. And so I want to be able to handle that, but I'm sure there's couples out there. There are people out there that would be okay with it. But for me, it's just something that I want to be able to, to live with.De'Vannon: Right. It is about being true to yourself. And I agree with.every sexual exchange, there is some level of mental, spiritual, and emotional transacting that does happen. You know, so it's just about what, what works for you and what doesn't. I just wanted to put that out there as a possible option. Now I wanted to talk about the self-esteem issues that I'm picking up on here and that I'm hearing in what you're saying, because you've mentioned like, some people are, who have sexual dysfunction are in [00:34:00] abusive relationships with people who are able to have sex.And so you think that people are maybe staying in this abusive situation because of low self-esteem. What, what, what sort of self-esteem issues have you seen. Anna: Well, I think there was the woman. I did talk to that. Her neighbor actually. So I haven't talked to that to a woman, but she said I talked about my app and she's like, you know, my neighbor, she's her, husband's mostly abusive. And she had breast cancer and she's like button hysterectomy. And she had chemotherapy, all that stuff that I had.And, and she's like, and I said, well, why is she in the relationship? Then? She said, well, she said, she's, she's afraid to be alone. And she said that no guy is going to want to be with her because of all of her scars. And because she doesn't want to have sex, she's never going to find anybody like, so she's just going to stay married.And, and she's like, well, that's what she said. I'm like, well, tell her about my app because that's another thing too. I want to reach all these people that are married, that, or are in a relationship. To know that it's [00:35:00] you're, you, you probably won't be alone. You'd just rather to be alone anyway, then in an abusive relationship.But but when they have all these surgeries and on scars and everything, and not like I told them, I said, man, I don't have any nipples, you know? So that might freak a guy out if you saw that, you know? But and I didn't know that even the mastectomy had nipples removed too as well. So it can be heavily promoted, I should say.But, so that's why the most, the low self esteem, they just, they don't have that courage to leave their partner or even enter the dating scene because they have these, these scars or these sexual limitations. That's why I think a twine will help them because they don't, people seem to be more understanding.I think when they're on this app, because they know right away that the intercourse or sex is not this off the table or can be off the table.De'Vannon: So how many people do you have signed up total on there now? Anna: Seventy-five I know it's not the money. That's, that's, that's where my problem is, is getting the word out [00:36:00] because the majority of the users are female. Cause I think like the guys don't really want to talk about it. If they're more embarrassed about it and women are a little bit more vocal about it. I think if there's only like a few support groups for men with ed and there's all these women's issues and for breast cancer groups, vaginismus groups, there's other types of sexual dysfunction in women, that groups for that.But and then if I put like on Facebook, I'll put 'em on my personal page, like please share my app upon entwined. No, no guys like, like my posts, nobody wants to be associated with it because it's going to be like, well, that means that I have ed. I don't want anybody to know that. So we're thinking that.So we're getting the word out is pretty, pretty difficult, but it's available in the U S right now only my goal is to have it available worldwide. And I actually had a few different countries reach out to me, UK, Canada Pakistan, and even India. They, [00:37:00] they messaged me separately and like, why is your app only available in the us, please make it available in our country.We need this to, and, and it's, it's needed worldwide. There's estimated it's going to be 300 to 320 million men in the world are going to have ed by 20, 24. I think the statistics were it's a lot of men, so there's like 30 million men right now in the U S that have ed. So like, we're all these, all these, all these men that are single, these need to hear about and fine.Cause there's, there's even veterans that I was researching. Veterans, I kind of go off, I think about something and I start talking about something else, but these, these veterans there, they have PTSD possibly, or maybe they have depression and they're on these, these antidepressant meds. Or maybe they, they lost limbs during combat genitals, even, you know?So I thought, what about these individuals? How do they find companionship? [00:38:00] And then I started seeing that, you know, there is this high suicide rate for veterans and some of them, there's not an exact percentage, but they were just in, at their counselor's office during therapy and talking about how they're very alone and they don't know what to do.And they ended up committing suicide. So it was like, I want to save everybody. I want to see the veterans. I want to save cancer patients, even people that are not cancer patients, you know, it's just, it's, it's needed in all these different areas. Diabetic clinics. I mean, I didn't realize diabetes caused causes ed too, you know, so it's just a matter of reaching everybody.And it's just me trying to do this with social media marketing, everything I'm doing on my own. So it's a little slow process, but De'Vannon: Well,Anna: there.De'Vannon: well, as the Lord says in the Hebrew Bible says despise, not the day of small beginnings. And so, you know, every app had to start with an idea and with that first, first two signed up. So there's no shame. And [00:39:00] just having 75 people, you know, 75 today, a hundred thousand tomorrow, you know, the thing in business is to stay consistent time and pressure, you know, are two things. Anna: zero before, so somebody five minute, every, every week I'm like, oh, I got another user. I got another user and I get all excited De'Vannon: But yeah, I heard, I heard high blood pressure. You can call it the right time. Can calls, towel, dysfunction. There's all kinds of medications and diseases out there. For veterans though. Yeah. I'm, you know, me being a veteran myself, you know, guys. It's just a lot of stress and you come out of the military and even when you're in the military and stress can cause erectile dysfunction.There's so many things, you know, but you know, the, the, the, I recommend for you to reach out to the disabled the DAV disabled American veterans, and because that's a good association that helps veterans and all sorts of things, they send out, you know, like a monthly magazine, they have a great website, [00:40:00] you know, they may want to post that, re your resource on there and include it in their publications as the American Legion.There's all sorts of like veterans associations that That that, that, that are set up to help. And of course you have mental health clinics in the department of veterans affairs, medical centers worldwide. And so I would work with the DAV if I were you and see how you might, could help their veterans.And then even maybe get this posted in the, in the veterans, hospitals worldwide, and, you know, look into that. Cause the, the veterans health care system is huge. You know, there's veterans, hospitals, and then there's a little mini clinics in cities where there's not enough population to have a big hospital, but mental health just in veterans alone, if.It's like a big deal and a lot of all kinds of dysfunctions play. He goes, honey. And so, and the thing with veterans is there since we tend to be so broken, the, the, [00:41:00] the powers that be are that have to deal with us are always looking for some sort of help. You know, there's plenty of veterans who get prescribed like Viagra and Cialis and all of that and everything like that.And so I think, I think it'd be worth your time to look into going down that route. And then suicide. Yeah. You had, you had said something earlier about like a form you were in the guy who was like, I don't want to live anymore. And everything like that, men attach so much of their value and worth to sexual performance. Y and I know you're not a man, but you know, why do you think that is a, what, what thoughts do you have on that? Because it goes for some, for a guy to be like, you know what? I can't fuck. So I'm just going to kill myself, you know, that's, that's like, that's like kind of a big deal in terms of like how much he thinks to himself based on how hard his Dick can get, what he can do with it.Anna: I often wonder [00:42:00] myself. I mean like, okay, I can't have sex, but I don't want to kill myself. You know, it's just like, I'm just like, eh, whatever. But it's just like, I don't know if just like, just so like, I don't know what the word is. Not even embarrassing, but I mean, I don't know. They just attached to that thing.Huh? So manhood, I don't know. But even like couples that are like the guys that are on the EDI page, like, you know, my. Is understanding, or she's not understanding anymore and she's not, she wants to divorce me now. So when guys and girls, where girls have to, where they're just like, and I don't want to be with the guy with ed, like, so it's, it's hard.It's heartbreaking to see that though. There's there were several posts that I saw guys that are like, you know, I don't, why am I living anymore? And it's, I don't, I never reached out to them to ask them why, but why there was so like, [00:43:00] they just don't want to be alone. I think De'Vannon: They don't want to be alone. And they feel like they feel like no one will have them. If their Dick don't work. Anna: Yes.De'Vannon: Okay. So then what I think this speaks to is our need to, as a, as a, as a society to reevaluate our value system, our personal value system and w and what we will allow and how we accept value from other people.So. Okay. So that means that we gotta be sure that we're assessing our value, not based on what we can do, but just who we are. So that means every day that we wake up, we are incredible and wonderful and loving and deserving of love because that's the way God made us, you know, we're here. So whether we perform fantastically today on whatever the task is, be at work sex, whatever the hell it is that you do, or if you totally suck at it, that doesn't mean that you are a bad person.It just means that you are imperfect, which [00:44:00] is true. And that's something that we just got to get over and accept about ourselves. We're just not going to be able to do everything and do everything as good as we would want to. And then if somebody wants to reject us because of an imperfection, we'll then fuck them.And I don't think that we need to go about the business of being like, I need to fix myself so that people will accept me because that's not living truth. You know, truth is, this is what's going on with me right now. I hope it gets better, but if it doesn't, I'm still going to be all right, because I'm more valuable than these, these physical limitations.I also think it's shortsighted because, you know, we have a spiritual aspect of us and a mental aspect of aspect of us. And when we die and leave this plane of existence, you know, there will be no Dixon vaginas, you know, on the other end, the other spiritual side, you know, these things, don't concern, angels and demons.And so, so I mean, I get, I get you know, somebody values something and they've made a big deal out of it. [00:45:00] I can see when it leaves them. They may not know how to cope with that. So, so, Hmm. So it sounds like then a lot of men may not be seeking mental health treatment to go along with erectile dysfunction.So what do you speak on the, everything I just said in my tirade, just now about the mental, the the, the self valuing aspect of it and the way we receive. Oh, how, how we should reject judgment from other people and then tie in mental health counseling implications to this. Anna: For myself. I didn't really, I didn't go for therapy or mental health counseling. I think like with men, there's actually specific therapists that have that specialized in sexual dysfunction for mum. And and I think a lot of them don't know that there's, there's cures further. Ed it's like, there is a cure for vaginismus.I know there's a cure of, I don't want to do it, but but these guys that they have these when [00:46:00]they do go to therapy, they might know that there's treatments. So they've lost hope, but they don't, they don't know that there's penile implants. There is injections. There's certain medications that they can take that would hopefully help them.There's even male penile press thesis that I'd met the founder of that guy that makes externally worn penises. And it, I guess the saves several marriages as well. But so without them going to a therapist and finding out, and I don't think that they may not, may not know, and for them to end their life for that, that's even more horrible.But that they need to know more about it. There's such a stigma for, for this this whole taboo of this topic, but they hope they would talk to somebody and why not? What, what options are out there and know that they don't have to do. They don't have to have surgery to have a press Penile implant.They can use my app instead, you know, because who wants to have [00:47:00] injections in their penis. I think that would hurt, you know? So that's another thing too. It's like maybe they don't want to do those treatments anymore.De'Vannon: I, I just, I just really think that we should be more valuable than our dicks, but I can see they can stroke a male ego and then how a woman or whatever it is someone's dating could praise them for their sexual performance. But I just, I just want to encourage people to let their relationships and their self value be based on more than Dick and Pelosi. I can Anna: yeah. Would be nice. ButDe'Vannon: we, we, we, can we come a little bit farther than that people Anna: I mean, not, not everybody's like that. I mean, there's couples that I hear on Facebook that are like, We have, we have such great other types of intimacy that we don't need intercourse cause outercourse and you know, they're fine with that and not [00:48:00] so,De'Vannon: You said outercourse, Anna: yeah, like a De'Vannon: there are other chorus Anna: out outer, outer course instead of intercourse, this outer core. So anything like De'Vannon: like four plates. Anna: and stuff, I guess. Yeah. Like a, yeah. Does it mean even though you're, even though you have ed, you still can what's the proper word come and ultimate. What's the cool word to use nowadays. De'Vannon: Ejaculated com bust a nut. Anna: but if you're limp, I don't know if you knew that you don't have to tell me if you know that.De'Vannon: No, I don't. I didn't know that that was possible. Anna: Yep. I didn't either until I started reading and I'm like, what really? So I guess what the right position, the outer is can work, grinding and stuff.De'Vannon: Hmm, I suppose. So [00:49:00] there's not a blockage in between the testicles and the urethra and the flow of semen can flow out because the hard, the erection is, is nothing more than blood rushing into the spongy tissue that makes up, you know, the penis, the Dick area, you know, blood is what makes Dick hard. But I guess, but yeah, I mean, there's nothing blocking the flow of the spring mountain shore Ramadan. Anna: did it. No.De'Vannon: Hm. Well, now we'll just power, you know, we gotta learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. And we also got to learn how to love ourselves. I feel like I just keep feeling like. The whole broke. Dick broke pussy thing is like the, kind of like the surface level of this. I feel like that this is so much deeper.You know, I feel like that this is a, like a cavernous void of. I don't know, like just did something broken inside a person. Cause you know, when you're happy, healthy, and whole, you can have shit fuck up in your [00:50:00] life or in your body. And that won't take your joy away from you. You know, when you reach a certain level of mental, which you already spiritual maturity and emotional maturity, you know, not saying you won't be pissed off if, if something breaks in your body or if you get cancer or if you get HIV, but you're not gonna let it into your life because you know how to focus on what is working and not, what's not working.So you might have some health issues, but what else, what, what what's actually going on, good in your life and everything like that. Why focus and emphasize and make a big deal out of one negative when you've got so much positive going on. It's like this whole fight over cut and uncut dicks, you know, people are so goddamn, shallow and shit that they've made people feel insecure about.Okay. I'm not gonna say I'm not going to have sex with him. He has an uncut Dick. The thing is ugly. Or on the converse, somebody that'd be like, well, I only want [00:51:00] uncut dicks. You know, it was like a whole thing, especially in the gay community. It's like a whole big fiasco and, and I'm all like, God damn it.Just shit. Dick is Dick other daily work. The same, all that is is a, is a, is a, is like a cosmetic thing. You know, it was, there was a hood there. Or there's not, you know, Yeah,sure. You can have your preferences, but it shouldn't be to the point that he makes somebody feel bad. You know, if their Dick isn't pretty enough, you know, you know, all of that and nobody should accept that sort of criticism, you know, from somebody else.And so, you know, again, it just gets me back to watching how we think about ourselves, being sure that our value systems about ourselves, not based on superficial things and also not allowing somebody to make us feel bad over superficial things. If some people should accept you for who you are, no matter what, not, what you can [00:52:00] do. Anna: Yeah. That's how it should be. But.De'Vannon: Now, you mentioned, you mentioned the statistic about how many men have we worked out a function, the songs, and how many are projected to, what are those, what are those statistical projections for? What. Anna: I didn't really find much for women because either they don't report it. Like if I, if I didn't go to the doctor, I would never have known, I have vaginismus. I want to just pay just like dealt with it. But and I think I had, this was back in the day too, when I was at, when I started using tampons because they were hurt, they were hurt.I'm like, that's weird. I'm like, well, I never said anything. Cause you know, it's embarrassing to tell my parents and my mom that or whatever, or the doctor that so, so there's not like an exact statistic for women, but I'm sure there is, there's a ton out there.De'Vannon: Well, that makes sense and sense of such a big deal for men if something's not working right. You know, he's probably going to go run real quick to try to get that shit fixed. Anna: Yeah. And there's a ton of women that have painful intercourse and they just deal with it. And like myself, I never, actually, I went to the [00:53:00] doctor. When I was early marriage and I was, I would say like sex hurts. I don't know why it hurts. It hurts. And they're like, well, just relax, have a glass of wine. And you'll be fine.I'm like, okay, thanks. When I went to the next doctor, same thing, relax, have a glass of wine. I'm like, oh my gosh. So let's put, these women are being told and said, you know, this time, thankfully somebody said my new doctor was like, you have vaginismus. Otherwise I would have been like, well, you're just too tense.And it's not all mental because I was under anesthesia of having my hysterectomy. And there were it was a vaginal hysterectomy and the doctor's like, I couldn't even get instruments. And then when you were under anesthesia with thing was just super tight and closed and not gonna go away. So yeah.It's so it's not just mental because I heard that too. Like, oh yeah, it was the wrong guy then that's probably what it is literally with me. I'll cure you. De'Vannon: Yeah. Anna: Sure.De'Vannon: Well, not all doctors are created even, you know, I believe [00:54:00] in second, third, fourth opinions, whatever it is that you need in order to until you feel like you've received an answer of PISA and you know, when it makes sense to you, and then you're not trying to like negotiate with, you know, if you know some shit ain't right.That you're getting from a doctor and then go somewhere else. Anna: Yes. That's what, yeah. Especially with cancer stuff. I had a really bad plastic surgeon that a little too confident and messed up my chest and I had to have another side, the other side removed because of it to make him symmetric. And he was just very cocky. Like, I'll wait until you're done with my once I'm done with your mastectomy, doing your reconstruction, your, your friends are going to be jealous of your, of your chest.And I'm like, I don't even have nipples guy con what friends gonna be like, Ooh, look at you Ana. No, so yeah. Second opinions.De'Vannon: I would have run right then, because, you know, if you're in a doctor's office going through what you were going through it at that point in time about your friends, you know, it was about Anna: [00:55:00] know he was very cocky.De'Vannon: about you and what you need to feel beautiful. Not about giving you a look so that you can go out there and give shallow ass people a reason to give you an attaboy or an ad, a girl or whatever.You know, his heart was not in the right place. Anna: yeah. Yeah. He's not a good guy, but I know how to pick them. Sometimes these doctors andDe'Vannon: So you've mentioned that this app is free. Anna: yes, it's free and it will have premium features available right now. Their premium features are free, but once I have enough users, then we'll do the premium services at an extra charge because I have to make some kind of revenue in order to maintain the app. So so yeah, right now it is, it is a free app.De'Vannon: So that you plan to grandfather, the people in and give them the premium services to people who have signed up, have been with you from the beginning, or will you give them a discounted rate or what's the plan? Anna: I'm not really sure yet, because I was debating if I should do a [00:56:00] monthly rate too. Cause that's another reason why I wanted to do a monthly rate for everybody is because I don't want someone to just sign up for the app to just to be nosy and just to see, like, let's see if I know anybody that has ed next to me or whatever my neighborhood.And and I didn't want that freedom. Cause I mean, I've been tablet. I could tell, like I already have a fake user on there, John DOE I'm like, or like whatever it was. I'm like what do I do with this guy? And there's no picture of him, you know? So why is he on this app? Is he because he's being nosy or is he being shy?You know, what's the reason, so. So I thought that maybe having like a minimum registration fee or whatever, it will be monthly fee that they would prevent malicious users. would actually know exactly what the app's about. They won't sign up, you know, if, if it's free, they won't sign up. Or if they have to pay for it, they may hesitate to sign up because they were make sure that they understand what the apps about first.De'Vannon: Right. That might not be a bad idea. I mean, I think E harmony [00:57:00] did something similar, you know, to that, you know, and have done very, very well in terms of, you know, having a fee for everybody, you know, with the, with the money, the things people spend money on, you don't have the bullshit, the money on, you know, hello coffee is, was at least $5.If you dare eat food, which I hate fast food, but shit, you know, you're looking at a good eight to $10 for one meal at a fast food restaurant. So a couple of dollars a month. Anna: To find true love that's worth it. Right.De'Vannon: No, it is totally worth it. And then, yeah, you'll, you'll get the bullshit people, bullshit ass people off your off of your app that way. So is there anything else you would like people to know about entwined? You know, this app can be found and like what the Google app store and the apple app store and on the website, like, so tell us where it is and anything at all. You want us to know about the app?Anna: So right now, if you go to intwine dating.com E N T w I N E dating.com, you [00:58:00] can read the whole history of why I created the app again, if you'd like, and then also you can download it to the play store. So Android it's available on Android. You use it as a web web-based app and then also so. IOS I'm working on that because I have, they, I guess they're not accepting any new dating apps in the app store right now.So I have to plead my case and show them that this is not because they said there's too many scams out there. So I had to show them, look, I have this many users. I've helped this many users. It's been on Google play store for how many months or years. And I joined all these podcasts and I in this magazine, you know, so it's a legit person.That's created something to help others. So it's just to show that it's a unique app. And then once I plead my case, I'll be able to go into the, into iOS, which I can't wait for that too. Cause it's a lot to explain.De'Vannon: Right. So the, do you have like a Facebook group, but you know, you can make like a private Facebook group so that people can [00:59:00] talk to each other. Do you have something like this? Anna: I don't yet. I, I tried to, to create like a sexual dysfunction group and a. I got a lot of creepy people trying to join us. So from different countries. And so I'm like, well, that's not going to work. So yeah, I do have like my business page, my entwine and twine Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. But as far as like a group for just the users, not yet.De'Vannon: Okay. All right. All right, Anna. Well, this isn't bringing us to the, to the end of our, I felt like I don't know, very like meaningful and loving conversation here that we've had today. So what, what advice do you have that? And I'm going to let you have the last word here. What, what advice do you have for people, men and women, both who are suffering?From either cancer and or [01:00:00] sexual dysfunction. Anna: The sexual dysfunction. If you're one of those people that have been alone for a long time, this app could be your answer you've been waiting for. And I know it's intimidating to sign up at first, but there's other people out there that, that are okay with not having intercourse. And just because you can't, if you have ed or vaginismus or whatever, whatever condition you have, it's you deserve to be loved too.And, and I think you should take that leap and join in twine and you can have somebody there that's gonna love you just the way you are and you don't have to change for anybody. Just be yourself.De'Vannon: Yeah, That's like that. I think that Bruno Mars songs and he's like, girl, you were amazing just the way you are. Anna: that's right. Spear self. it, you know, I'm a karaoke horror, by the way.De'Vannon: Hey, be a horn, not a boy. [01:01:00]Anna: I go to karaoke like seven days a week when I don't have my kids. That's my outlet.De'Vannon: You do well in Japan. They love you over there. And what about closing words where anyone with cancer? Anna: If you are diagnosed or if you find like something suspicious, don't hesitate because early detection is key. If I had waited to check my lump out, out of fear, I wouldn't be here anymore because my cancer was

Oggi rispondo alle vostre domande. Buone feste a tutti e speriamo che il 2022 sia un anno positivo per tutti noi.Contenuti⏱️ 00:43 Abazar: Il mio film di Natale preferito⏱️ 03:23 Ayobami: Un mio segreto⏱️ 07:48 Anna: So fare i tortellini in casa?⏱️ 10:03 Daniele: Panettone o Pandoro?⏱️ 13:03 Jim: Film italiani divertenti? Quali film americani mi piacciono? Musica italiana contemporanea? Parte preferita dell'Italia da visitare?⏱️ 19:10 Laura: Cosa mi piace di Madrid?⏱️ 21:34 Majo: Anch'io amo Roberto Saviano?⏱️ 24:58 Roberto: Cosa facciamo in Italia durante la notte di Capodanno?Regalo di Natale

In this episode, Anna Jordan meets Lady Chanelle McCoy – entrepreneur and former Dragon on Dragon's Den Ireland. We talk about her time on the show and the barriers to growth for the CBD industry. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more podcasts featuring Dragon's from the UK version of Dragon's Den. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Don't forget to check out the video version of this episode and subscribe over on our YouTube channel! Would you prefer to read Chanelle McCoy's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I'm your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Lady Chanelle McCoy, entrepreneur and former Dragon on Dragon's Den Ireland. Born in Galway, she co-founded Chanelle Medical, part of Chanelle Pharma, which was founded by her father. In 2015, Lady McCoy and business partner Caroline Glynn set up Chanelle McCoy Health, an R&D led pharmaceutical company. From that came cannabidiol (CBD) range, Pureis CBD. She was recently ranked no 23 in the ‘50 incredible people shaping modern Ireland'. She was awarded the All-Ireland Business Champion Award 2018 for her outstanding achievements in business leadership. We'll be talking about her time on Dragon's Den Ireland and the barriers to growth facing the CBD industry. Anna: Hi, Chanelle, how are you doing? Chanelle: Good. Anna, how are you? Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited about our chat. Anna:Oh, of course, of course. So, listeners and viewers might not recognise you straight away. But they might have seen you before on the Irish version of Dragon's Den. Chanelle: Yeah, that's right. I'm Irish, home grown – from the west of Ireland. I've spent over 25 years in the pharmaceutical industry. I'm very lucky to get the opportunity to do Dragon's Den, the Irish version. Dragon's Den is owned by Sony Music, and they franchise that out to 27 countries around the world. When I did Dragon's Den, when I started the first year, Ireland was the first country to have three female dragons and two male dragons. It was a fantastic experience to do it. I definitely made a few investments. Yeah, so it was great. Smashing. So, based on your time in there, what would you say are the biggest differences between the Irish version and the UK version? I've only seen a few clips of the Irish version, but for want of a better word, it seems nicer – less cut-throat, I suppose.  Chanelle: I mean, maybe that's more of a cultural thing as us Irish are quite warm and friendly, maybe. But no, I think that the fact that Sony Music are the owners, and it's a franchise, that the setting was very much the same, was very like this, the way we sit, and the seats and, and the whole kind of procedure of it as well. It is your own money that you're investing, that you have to bring that to the table, even though the cash sitting beside you is actually not real. We would record about seven pitches in a day. So you literally would have one after another, some of the pitches would go on for about an hour and a half, even though you only see maybe 15-20 minutes on the TV when it's edited down. The reality is you get no prior warning or visibility of the pitch that's coming into the den. So you're in between all this, like when the seven pitches are going on, in between that you leave the room, you go back backstage kind of thing. You wait until the room is set up, you come back onto your chair, the product is hidden, you've got no phone, you can't Google anything. And it's literally when that entrepreneur walks out of the lift that you get to know about the products. So, that's why the pitches would go on for more like an hour and a half, because this is your money you're investing, and you have to make a decision right there and then, whether you're going to invest or not. I mean, obviously maybe some people feel Ireland, the Irish was a bit tamer than England, but there were certainly a few of the pitches that we gave them a hard time with! The fact that it's every pitch is brand new to you. Why do you think that is? Is it more of like a production thing and gets an authentic reaction from you? Chanelle: I think it's twofold. I think that the entrepreneur coming in there pitching, knows that they've got this really short window to sell their story and their business to you. Those entrepreneurs coming in, most of them really need that investment to survive, and if they don't get it, their company will close, they're running out of cash, so there's from their side of the fence, they know that we have had no prior knowledge of their of their company. So they've got to pitch really well, from our side as well. That's the whole thrill of Dragon's Den is that it's instinctive, you have to make a decision right there and then, so that builds to the excitement I'm kind of the drama of it or the appeal of it. Absolutely. I'd like to talk a bit more about your time in the pharmaceutical industry, because it's certainly been a year for pharmaceuticals, for CBD and for the wellness industry as well. And there's so much to unpick with that. Starting off with CBD, the market has grown exponentially, it absolutely exploded, and it's becoming more popular with consumers. But there are still barriers to growth. Say for example, search engines, in my understanding, are reluctant to rank products with CBD and anything related. Tell us more about the barriers to growth in that particular market. Chanelle: If we look at where we've come in the last six years. Today, the CBD food supplement market in the UK is valued at £450m. Now to put that into context, what does that mean – is that big, is that small? If you look at vitamin C in the UK today, that's £115m. Vitamin D today is £145m so CBD today and we have eight million people that take CBD today in the UK. CBD today at £450m totally eclipses vitamin C and vitamin D together. But the exciting thing is that £450m figure will grow to £1bn in the next three years. We are delighted that our product, it's called Pureis CBD, and we're on the market over a year now in the UK and we're in over 1000 retailers. We're the first CBD food supplement company to command the UK market that's backed by clinical studies. And we invested over a number of years, we invested over £1.5m in extensive safety clinical studies, because that is the requirement by the UK Food Standards Agency, the European Food Safety Authority, because they say CBD is a new molecule in your body. We didn't take it prior to 1997, they want all these safety studies done. So, we just embarked on, while adhering to the legislation. We are the first CBD food supplement company in the world to use FDA-registered raw material. And that might not mean a lot to the consumer walking in off the street, but it means a lot to the pharmacists and the doctors. Because the FDA are the strictest food and medicine sheriffs in the world. It was great that we worked with our raw material supplier, and we were able to get that certification on our raw material. What's happened in the CBD industry this week [week commencing April 19, 2021], which has been incredibly interesting to watch it evolve. The Food Standards Agency, which are basically the governing body that look after the safety of food supplements, they set a deadline for the CBD industry this week that any CBD food supplements that wants to stay on the market has got to submit a dossier into the Food Standards Agency with a full suite of clinical safety studies. And if you do that, you are allowed to remain on the market. If you don't do that, you will be pulled off the market. And the Food Standards Agency this week published a list of the companies that are allowed remain on the market. There are only three brands on that list, and we are the first brand on that list. We are officially in full assessment with the Food Standards Agency, we're on that list, which is very exciting. Anna: How many were there to begin with? Chanelle: About 800. What will happen, as the weeks go on, there will be more companies added to that list. But if you're not on the list by June, you're off the market. But this is a very positive move. The UK Government trying to bring what is an unregulated CBD market into a regulated market, because this is all about consumer safety at the end of the day. And the issue with CBD is there are a lot of rogue traders and cowboys out there. That was validated by a paper that was published last year where a number of professors got together, they tested over 30 products that are on the market. The alarming results of that paper is that 55 per cent of products on the market today have illegal levels of THC. And THC is a psychoactive addictive part of the cannabis plant that you don't want in a food supplement. It's fine in the medicine space when it's released by a doctor. And also, of those products, 34 per cent of them have lower levels of CBD than advertised on the label. There's a huge issue with misleading the consumer and this is why the legislation has come in, because they want to clean up the market. So what you'll see over the next few months is you will see a lot of CBD brands will be pulled off the market, the market will consolidate and what will be left on the market will be very safe products that are backed by clinical studies. This will help demystify CBD and give us the really good reputation that it should have because it is not psychoactive, you do not get a high from CBD. CBD is not addictive. It's just got all the good healing properties. So that's in terms of a kind the market and where we are and how it's going to grow and with the legislation. What is really hampering the CBD industry at the moment and is really going to affect the potential growth and job opportunities in the UK, is we still have banks, financial services and payment gateways that will not trade with CBD companies. They treat us like we're in the porn industry, they treat us like we're illegal, so we can't open a bank account in the UK. We're dealing with lots of payment providers like Stripe, the two Irish boys, we tell them all about our clinical studies, we are fully ethical, we are now on the approved Government list. Computer says no, they will not support our business. You then go to the likes of Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and you say well, we want to do some digital advertising and we want to run social media campaigns with our products. We have clinical studies here, we are very ethical. Again, computer says no, we don't deal with CBD companies. I think these types of institutions and these companies really need to wake up. They need to take their blinkers off and they need to think, ‘Okay, let's assess each CBD company as they approach us. Why don't we trade with those companies that are on the Food Standard Agency ‘Publish' list, because we know that they are ethical, they're safe. They've done their studies.' The London Stock Exchange has floated three companies recently, three CBD companies, one of them is the one that David Beckham's involved in. If the LSE is engaging and trading with CBD companies, well why won't other companies? What is the critical issue now is the Home Office. Okay, so the Home Office in the UK is the Government arm that is responsible for policing narcotics and drugs here – and what's been imported. Our raw material is manufactured in the United States. As I said, it's FDA registered, so it's really high quality. We are synthetically derived, so we are not taken from the plant. We have mimicked the DNA the plant, so it is not possible to have any THC in our products because we are synthetic. And the Home Office have said to us – now, this is not us, this is with every CBD company: No, you are not allowed to import your raw material into the UK. And because we bring our raw material into the UK, and then we get our products manufactured, our finished product manufactured in the UK. They say no, because your product might have THC. So we went to four labs that the Home Office use, these are independent Government approved laboratories, we got our raw material tested, we gave them the certificates, plus all our data from the FDA and said, ‘We don't have THC. We're synthetic, it's not possible.' And again, they're like, ‘Computer says no, sorry.'  What's going to happen now is you're going to see a lot of people like us leaving the UK. We get our product manufactured in the UK, we had planned with the manufacturing company we work with, that they were going to create 70 more jobs between now and the end of the year, because now we are launching a lot of different markets outside Europe and Ukraine and Russia and China. And we need lots of product manufactured. Those 70 jobs now will not be created in the UK because we've got to go to Germany and Ireland to set up, to find a new manufacturing partner and set up our production there. That's happening now, right through the CBD industry, where there will be huge job losses. They are totally suffocating the growth of what will be a huge market – not just for food supplements, but for the pharmaceutical industry as well. So, you spoke a bit earlier about the difficulties and the resistance to the CBD market, especially in the UK. Of course, we all know that, especially since the transition period ended Brexit has caused some troubles as well, it'll be great to hear from somebody who is a major trading partner of the UK. So as a business based in Ireland, how has your trading relationship with the UK been affected by Brexit? Chanelle: I mean, it's very difficult now. And we are trading both ways, we are registered as an Irish company. And we are now registered as an English company. We get our manufacturing done in the UK of our finished product. But now, because of Brexit, we will look to have a second manufacturing site as well set up. Because when we hopefully get our European license receipt for our products, for Pureis, we will have a lot of challenges having the product manufactured in the UK, and then shipping it to the likes of Germany and France, because customs, tariffs, duty, is crippling.  When we contact that customs and it's like, ‘Well look, you can get your customer to pay it, and then your customer in Germany can claim it back.' It is it is annoying for a customer to have to do that. And if they have an alternative to trade with somebody that's in a European country over you, they will do that, because they don't have that administration hassle when they're dealing with somebody else. It is very unfortunate that there is not a better trade deal between the UK and Europe. Also then bringing product in from Ireland into the UK, is very difficult. So what it has forced companies like myself to do is that when you're trading in Europe, you need to have a base in Europe. You need to move your manufacturing from the UK and position it in Europe, that is really the only way. When you're trading in the UK, what you need to do is set up a manufacturing facility in the UK to service your UK customers. That is a pity, because it has incurred a lot of costs for us we're trying to set up work with new partners, qualify them as a manufacturer for our product in Europe and also what it does is we now, for our European customers, we are now taking all our production out of the UK and basing it in Europe. The UK have lost out a lot. But no matter what way you look at it, upside down, inside out, that is really the only way because at the end of the day, this is about servicing your customer. It's about being easy to deal with in the eyes of your customer. And it's about not incurring costs in terms of extra customs and duty and taxes and all of that. So that's really the way we've navigated it, but I think if the UK had the chance again to vote to leave Europe, I certainly don't think they would. I've spoken to so many UK entrepreneurs, Irish entrepreneurs and our leaders, and they tell you that. Anna: So it wouldn't be the case where the UK is a significant enough market where the costs would be worth it on balance. Chanelle: I mean, what it just means now is that, if you want to trade with the UK, you want to supply product into the UK, you're better off to source it within the UK. And the UK might think, well, that's a good thing, because we're bringing more employment and more opportunity into the UK, because we're forcing people to set up to partner with manufacturers in the UK. But actually, your loss is much bigger, because Europe is much bigger geographically. And what you're missing out on, is companies like me, who want to service 28 countries in Europe, from a manufacturing facility in the UK, and we can't do it. We've spoken a little bit about your husband, AP McCoy. I noticed that in quite a lot of the bios and the introductions I read about yourself, that he's mentioned within that bio and is quite a significant part of it. And I wondered how that affects you. As you're a self-named brand, do you feel that your husband's presence and career kind of helps boost it? Or do you feel that you can't exist in your own right? Chanelle: I'm incredibly proud of AP and to go through his career, and to be the most successful winning jockey, and to be champion jockey for 20 years, and winning the BBC Sports Personality of the Year and be knighted by the Queen – it's a great legacy. It's a great achievement within what he has done. And he's been incredibly impactful to me. As I went along in my career, I was lucky – I met him when I was 19. I'm 44 now. We've done this journey together, where I've worked for my family business, while he was scaling the heights in his career. I suppose it was a great outlet for me, because, I had to work really hard, it wasn't like that I kind of floated through my job and I dipped out to go racing every week, it wasn't that case. I was very mindful of the fact that during that period, in our 20s and early 30s, that it was all about AP. Every time I went to the races, or you're out to dinner with people, everybody wants to talk about him. And that's okay, because it's incredibly dangerous what he does, it's very interesting when you get under the hood of like, the diet and the people he rides for, and all of that. I was very happy to go along, for like, 15-20 years, where people would always ask me about him. But I think, what was really where I benefited hugely, and it goes back to the environment you live in, you work in. His dedication, his will to win, his absolute resilience, definitely rubbed off on me and shaped my culture, shaped my values. He motivated me. That's why in the workplace, it's so important, as a leader, as a manager, that you are creating this environment, where you are inspiring, you're positive, you're giving people that self-belief because your behaviour as a leader totally rubs off on the people around you, and will become their behaviour – they will emulate that. He was a fantastic source of inspiration for me, because his behaviour kind of became my behaviour in the end. It was only really, when he stopped riding in 2015 and I started to do Dragon's Den, that people used to say to me, ‘You're on Dragon's Den, Chanelle? I mean, I didn't even know you had a job. I've seen you for years at the races.' And I'm like, ‘Yeah, yeah. I'm in pharmaceuticals, have been in here for 15 years.' So suddenly people started to say to me, ‘Oh, you're not just AP's wife then?' ‘No, no – I'm a human in my own right.'   As AP said to me, ‘Chanelle, it's your time to shine'. I've been in his shadow, very happily in his shadow and supporting him, so he's incredibly supportive when I did Dragon's Den, and now with my own business, and trailblazing in the CBD industry, because we're the first with our clinical studies. We're the first to get on this list, the Government list that was published this week. He's very supportive and very proud. He's been a massive help to me over the years and has definitely been the driving force. Anna: Well, that seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you ever so much for coming on the podcast, Chanelle – it's been wonderful. Chanelle: Brilliant. Thanks for having me, Anna. It was really enjoyable. You can find out more about Lady Chanelle McCoy at chanellemccoyhealth.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more podcasts featuring Dragons from the UK version of Dragon's Den. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts, follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk (all lowercase) and subscribe to our YouTube channel, linked in the description. Until next time, thank you for listening.

In this episode I talk to Trinny Woodall, TV presenter, author and founder of makeup brand, Trinny London. We discuss influencer marketing and augmented reality within the beauty industry.   You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more on SEIS and the importance of communities. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Trinny Woodall's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Trinny Woodall, fashion and beauty guru, TV presenter, author, entrepreneur and new entrant in the Telegraph’s Top 100 Tech Entrepreneurs 2020. Formerly one half of Trinny and Susannah earlier in the 2000s, she now runs Trinny London, an online make-up company providing personalised stackable products. It includes the Match2Me service which matches Trinny London make-up to a person’s skin tone, hair and eye colour. The business is worth £46m. We’ll be looking at influencer marketing and the changing habits of beauty consumers.     Anna: Hello Trinny. Trinny: Hello, Anna. How are you? Anna: Yeah, I'm doing all right. Thank you. How are you? Trinny: Very well, thank you. Anna: Great. First, I’d like to talk about your business background. Trinny London is pretty on the pulse when it comes to emerging business trends – personalisation, building social media communities, the founder being an extension of the brand. Of course, you will have a team behind you, but it looks like there is some knowhow there already. Is this your first foray into business particularly in the pre-Trinny-and-Susannah days? Trinny: Even pre-Trinny-and-Susannah days, I had gone into finance. So, I started my career in commodities, selling commodity funds, which I detested. I would go down from Earls Court to Tower Hill and I would have the FT on the outside and inside, I'd be reading the Daily Mail. But there was an obligation in my mind, because my dad was a good businessman, an entrepreneur. I was the youngest of six kids and I think I didn't feel smart enough for university. I started as a secretary in a physical trading house. I was surrounded by business conversations at the dining room table because my father, brother and brother-in-law were involved in the same business. And then, when I was doing my foray into the City, I realised how much I disliked it and I wanted to do something else. But there was a part of me that wanted to have a business. I think I always had that from a very young age. I fell into television and before I even did TV, Susannah and I had a column and the internet started emerging as a as a platform that econ was just starting in ‘98. I really thought it was so interesting that you could do some form of personalisation online. And with all the traction we had with our followers on Trinny London, I remember I spent a weekend and I was doing a fast, I had very bad skin, so I was doing this fast, very weird thing. But my brain became very clear. I thought, ‘What can one do that could bring together what the internet's beginning to offer and refine choice?’ I think the idea of refinement of choice was a really big one for me. And that came about in Ready 2, which was something that we started in 1998. By 2001, it had closed. The idea for it was a portal for women with fashion and clothing and beauty. We just couldn't get to the profitability, because there wasn't enough traction online of being able to do a transaction so you could take a commission, so it didn't happen, but I loved it. Susannah didn't love it, because for her, she loves more the creative side of things. We then did television and spent ten years doing TV shows around the world. And during that time, we had an agent. I also was more of the kind of driver of the business side of what we would do next. I’ve got lots of beeps by the way going in this podcast because as much as I love tech, I cannot for the life of me get my notifications to turn off on this laptop. I will apologise for the beeps. I'm trying to get Slack to quieten down, but it's not going to happen. So, there was that moment, after about 10-15 years working with Susannah where we both felt a fatigue with what we were doing. I think I will never stop loving the concept of making over a woman. And by that I don't mean make somebody who looks bad look good, but just moving their sense of how they see themselves. Then I had this idea for Trinny London at the back of my mind, and I didn't realise until I look back at certain things, and people remind me how early on I had that idea. And in those last few years of making over women in every different country, I would be in Poland using Inglot makeup, and then I'd be in Israel using MAC and then somewhere else, I noticed the team of makeup girls would always do the same look on everyone and I felt that I kept saying to them, ‘Look, they have all have a different skin, hair, and you must look at colour palettes and look at how you can put them differently on women.’ And I felt that was something that really didn't exist, that level of personalisation. And I also felt that it's something that really didn't happen in store. I thought, okay, it's going to be online. And by the time I made that decision, I'd started developing with an SEIS scheme, I'd gone and I thought, ‘How can I raise some money?’ I was really coming to the end of my royalties from the different shows I'd done. Probably I was the most broke I had been in 15 years. But sometimes that's when you got to do stuff. With the SEIS scheme, you can raise up to £150,000 and it's 50 per cent tax back. Two people who were kind of committed to me as a businesswoman, they knew I had a good work ethic, a friend of mine’s mother and well, one of my daughter's friends. The mother who I didn't know that well, but was in beauty. She runs beauty at Mintel research, and my daughter's Godfather, both believed in my work ethic. So I asked them, and they put in £150,000 between them. I then had the opportunity to explore. I think if you look at all different entrepreneurs, they either start tiny, and every time they get a tiny bit of revenue, they invest in something else. And I think the younger you are, the easier that is to do. But I was 50 when I started this, so I knew I needed to really accelerate to get that proposition out there. I raised that money – probably the most expensive money I raised in terms of the percentage of revenue I gave away, the percentage of the value of the business I gave away for that. But I wouldn't have got it got off the ground. And one thing I've learned in life is you must never ever regret any decision you make. I got to that point and I think then I knew from what I'd learnt in the past with Ready 2 is I had felt an inexperienced businesswoman so I had hired what I deemed to be really experienced people in their field. The CMO I paid at that time £100,000 to because I'd raised £7m for Ready 2. I hired a CEO who came from Barclays, because I thought she'd be a good – CFO, CEO background – and a lot of other women who were in quite high-powered tech. There was a huge amount going out in salaries and a really high burn rate per month.   I knew that with that £150,000 I've got to do a really good business plan, I've got to show a prototype, I've got to show where I'm going to get it made, I've got to show how I'm going to make the money. And I was building up a little social media following. I'd started on it – I realised I just wanted to do video because I come from television. And it was gaining traction. By this stage, I had a very nice guy called Mark who became my COO, and he had a CFO background. When we were doing those spreadsheets, which any small business, you spend days doing those projections, months doing those projections. People can do crazy projections. And I kind of knew, I wanted projections that, when I went into an investor meeting, I could say, ‘This is really why I believe I'll get to that revenue in 2020,2021 and 2022.’ We did it as a percentage of a conversion of my social media following. And as that social media following grew, we felt that between two and two and a half per cent of those people would buy from the brand. And now, three years later, the valuations are actually probably double what you said, because we've had huge growth in the last six months. But it's been based on that, there hasn't been a huge amount that's changed. I hired that middle management, that C-suite, a year and a half into the business. I hired a CMO. I hired a strategic CTO, I have a very nice CTO who started with us early, but he was more he's now head of development. And I hired an MPD. And I was at the stage where I got enough revenue in and I thought I can sustain those salaries. Because otherwise all you're doing is earning money to pay the salaries, and I wanted to earn the money for growth. Absolutely. As you there are a few different things in there that I'd like to pick up on. First of all, women investors, especially when they're pitching, they have a harder time because they’re often all-male panels or a majority male panels. What kind of unique challenges did you face, being a woman but also being a woman in her 50s? Trinny: I think the challenges I face were those two plus somebody who was known, but known in a different industry. That might have got me the meeting, but it was oddly prejudicing in other ways. People put you in a box. And we think in the press, they make assumptions. They don't know what you're like as a businesswoman, they've just seen you on television, which might seem to investors a light-hearted industry. There's a sort of double importance to make them appreciate and understand that you will know how to run a business and get the right people at the right time to support you in running that business. I probably went to see 22 VCs before I had somebody say. ‘Actually, I get it.’ I always thought I want to be more than a makeup brand owner. I want this to be a community for women to feel good. It was about having every age represented, every skin tone represented, every type of woman could feel that she could identify with what we were offering. So convincing investors of that, instead of our target market is 18 to 34. Because many investors said to me, ‘Love it, but can you just skew the whole thing and do it for the Millennials?’ And I was like, ‘No, to me, the gap in the market is 35 to 55.’ It's for everyone, but this is a huge gap. So I want to definitely have over 50 per cent of my customers from 30 to 60. So I just felt that there was this real untapped market in a very, very crowded area. Yeah. And you've got to stick to that vision I think if I look at the difference between what Trinny London represents and what Trinny Woodall represents, they're not all the same customer, but a lot of people from Trinny will convert to become a Trinny London customer. And there's a lot of people on Trinny London who don't even follow me, so I love that.   We have these Trinny tribes that have stopped around the world and about 70,000 women around the world who are part of our Facebook tribe, which is in their area. And that, to me, is that other part of the business when I say that Trinny London isn't just a makeup brand. I think that the word ‘community’ has been very overused in brand building, because it might have been started by some men in dark suits in a room of a very commercial business. I think community has to start organically. And then you have to feel how can you harness what is in fact, a sort of fan base, a passion? People are the most passionate about your brand, how can you harness them? It's not going to become a multi-level marketing business. That's not what we are. But how can we make them feel good about the fact that they, for free, love to chat about Trinny London?    Yeah, you were saying as well, one of the problems you had earlier on was of personalisation and reaching enough women and even on What Not to Wear, in a series you can only do maybe six people at a time. Whereas with social media that's completely revolutionised that and you can have a much broader reach now. That has brought about the Trinny Tribes on Facebook. I'd quite like to know, was that part of your plan originally? Or did that come about organically? Trinny: I think that the very original Trinny Tribe were people who follow me on my Instagram. And some of those were like, ‘Are you the person who used to be Trinny of Trinny and Susannah? Yeah, I used to be that person. Now I just do my own thing. And they follow that. There was a woman called Kelly in north west England and she just started a Facebook fan page. And she took a bit of our logo and called it Trinny Tribe and said if there’s anyone else who’d like to know what she's doing at the moment and follow her. This is, as we launched the brand, I mean, literally, maybe a tiny bit before. These people started joining. And then somebody said, ‘Well, I'm in London, I might start a London one.’ And so we saw our logo on Facebook, or a picture of me or a bit of yellow, really random little things that you put on Facebook. And so we thought, ‘Okay, well, what we can't have this very fragmented interpretation of our brand, because it sort of dilutes what we are and, and in a way there is an association there with the word ‘Trinny’. We approached the admins, and we said, ‘Look, we just love what you're doing, would you like to be more connected to us, and we can give you a nice logo for your area and think of ways that we could… you could come in for a drink occasionally and it’d be lovely to meet some of you.’ They were very excited. And so that's in a way how it began. And then we assigned a woman who did a lot of stuff on social media called Paris, to be the contact for those people. We then said, ‘Look, we think admins a horrible word, let's call you ambassadors, or ambassadresses.’ So they love that too. We have some of them in unit for a little brainstorm, what they liked about things and what they'd like more of, just so there was that feeling that they are a part of the growth of what Trinny London represents. Yeah, exactly. I know I can imagine that over COVID the habits of beauty consumers has changed because Trinny London has quite a soft, radiant glow-y type of makeup which people are actually saying is quite good for Zoom calls rather than something that's very heavy that you'd see more on a night out. How would you say that your customer base has changed over COVID? Is it more people who would be going to the makeup counter who are now looking online? Trinny: For sure. And as you were saying there is a certain advantage to having the social media videos because you bring in the people who are less seasoned when it comes to makeup, maybe want to try and explore it a bit. They have tutorials on how to layer different pots. There are a couple of things I would like to talk about before we wrap up. First off, within the beauty industry, we see a lot of influencer marketing but with your Ambassadresses is there as much a need for that? What kind of role does [influencer marketing] play? Trinny: it's interesting, in a way, because I have across Instagram and Facebook, about 2m followers, I am to an extent an influencer. And because Trinny London is my revenue stream and my brand building, I've never done any deal with anyone. I talk about Zara a lot on my own channel, because I think it's the most internationally available. And I talk about what I love. I was very reticent [about influencer marketing]. When we tried very early on, we worked with rewardStyle. And we paid – what for us then – was a fortune to get them to select the people they thought were good influencers, and I found incredibly low conversion. I think our strategy has been far more that when we look at for Facebook advertising, for example. Facebook advertising has changed their algorithms, so that instead you can still designate an audit audience. But they can also say, ‘Okay, we'll take control of that earlier stage.’ And we will find the algorithm of the people who are buying from you already and match it and do their weird magic, which… it's a computer teaching another computer to teach another computer, it's like a dark hole. Any brand that's going down that route, and deciding to do it, and I do think it's a far more successful route for the influencer route and for our brand, is the importance that these shouldn't really always look like ads. And because people are engaged by something that grabs them that they think is something they're going to learn from. So sometimes you and I would look on our feed and would see an ad, it will grab us, because it's a really clean ad, it's like this will clean your teeth better than any other toothbrush. And you're like, ‘Okay,’ but some other things need a story to be told. And sometimes you think you've got 30 seconds to tell that story, or you've got five minutes to tell that story. But some of our most successful ads on Facebook are just actually women saying, ‘I'm trying this’ and they're telling their story. We have a lot of content, we have at any one time about 200 ads running on Facebook. And that is a strategy that was implemented when our CMO joined us, Shira. Because she said, ‘Look, we really want to put in the marketplace a lot.’ And everyone is going to be attracted by a different bit of content. I think there are some good influencers. But generally, an influencer is a business. And we must respect and appreciate that as a business. But I think to be a really successful influencer, you have to have a proportion of your feed being, ‘This is what I really love, and there's no ad or whatever involved.’ And when you see an influencer, where it's basically ad or affiliation, ad or affiliation, that’s it, there's no objective, ‘This is what I really think about the product.’   The other problem we've got as consumers is magazines are drying up and magazines are going online. The concept of the war between advertising and editorial, which used to be quite strict in a magazine, is very blurred online. Because magazines need to make a revenue, and the revenue is they write an article and the user clicks through and they have an affiliation to that product. And that happens whenever I'm on any magazine. That's a revenue stream. We know that if we read an article in a magazine, and these are the top 10 there'll be a click through to all of them and the magazine is making money because that's the only way they can make money. They are an influencer on a grand scale, but they are still getting the cut like the small influencer is getting a cut, so I'm not sure. But to answer your question in a very long-winded way, for our business, the influencer model is not the right model. There are beauty businesses in Germany, there's a young beauty brand called Bananas or something I can't remember, it's quite often young brand, like a Glossier but younger. And their model is a purely influencers. They put all their revenue that I might put into Facebook into 200, 300, 400 key influencers and it's very successful with them. Is that an age thing or an attitude thing? I'm not sure. Anna: I guess knowing your business as well. I mean, it's going to be different. You're going to have different target audiences, you'll find them in different places. So I definitely think that you do what's right for you. Okay, last thing I'd like to talk about is the the future of Trinny London, and where it's going. Match2Me is a huge part of the overall brand. Do you see yourself moving it on a bit? Say, with augmented reality. We were seeing it with L'Oreal, having apps that you can put makeup on your face virtually, things like that. Do you ever see Trinny London going that way? Trinny: I think that's the fundamental difference between what a lot of brands did during COVID is they did virtual trial, because they knew all their customers wanted to try. Virtual try-on to me, to date, is still gamification. The majority of them come with filters. And it's kind of, for some women, it's like, ‘I know, I'm not going to look like that, because they've made my face perfect.’ Is it just a fun way to play? And would it make me buy the lipstick? On some brands, the conversion is great, because it's catering to an audience that already is building and doing filters on Instagram and Snapchat and TikTok and therefore, they love it. And it kind of makes sense. I think Match2Me is unique, because there is no other beauty brand that is actually saying, ‘Let's look at your skin, hair and eye. And let's look at the refinement of choice of colour that suits you.’ I think that can't be replicated. I mean, I haven't seen anyone do it. And I've been working with four or five different augmented reality and virtual trial brands and have come to the conclusion that, in fact, we are going to develop something internally. Because what I see is very set out of the box plug-ins, and I want to do something which is a step ahead of what these people are currently offering. There is a huge, very interesting opportunity for brands to really personalise and personalise to their customers. But I think there's going to be cleverer ways than just what is still a little bit of gamification. Anna: So, something that perhaps isn't on the market yet? Trinny: Not on the market yet. Anna: Well, that sounds like a good place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Trinny. It was great to have you on. Trinny: It was lovely to talk to you.              You can find out more about Trinny London at trinnylondon.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for articles on starting a business of your own and building social media communities. Remember to like us on Facebook at SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lowercase. Until next time, thank you for listening.

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

There's nothing more infuriating than when people throw shade at the anti-diet perspective without bothering to actually research it. When "The Biggest Loser" trainer/shameless fatphobe Jillian Michaels arrogantly released a Youtube clip trashing the 10 principles of intuitive eating, WITHOUT EVEN READING THE BOOK, she REALLY pi***ed off the community! And none more so than my guests, anti-diet fitness trainers Anna Hearn and Shreen El Masry, who have been dying to come on the podcast and set the record straight! Finally the COVID window opened just a crack so I could record the very first IN PERSON podcast! Join us as we dissect Jillian's often hilarious inability to comprehend a life beyond diet prison. WHAT ON EARTH IS THIS 'PERMISSION TO EAT!!' It seems the lady doth protest too much - could it be that the Queen of Diet Prison is sensing the paradigm-shifting power of the anti-diet revolution? That's right folks, the unrivalled reign of Biggest Loser-esque terror is over!! Vive La Difference! Please note - this episode comes with a hefty side serve of calorie count discussions, so if you're in recovery from an eating disorder please consider your level of spoons to hear the diet talk. But, if you've had a gutful of igno-rants about anti-dieting, it's time to get ALL FIRED UP! Show Transcript:   LOUISE: So, here I am with Anna and Shreen. Thank you so much for coming on the show. ANNA: Thank you for having us. SHREEN: Yeah, thank you so much. LOUISE: It’s so exciting to be alive with actual humans in the room, and slightly weird. Why don’t you guys tell me all about what is firing you up? ANNA: We’re really fired up about Jillian Michaels and her aggressive fatphobic rant on intuitive eating. LOUISE: (sighs) First of all, I have to say I love how you say ‘rant’, it’s very proper and awesome. But yes, Jillian Michaels – Biggest Loser trainer in the United States. Horrendously fatphobic. ANNA: Yeah, I mean … she got her living, she makes her living from shaming fat bodies. I think that tells a lot about her character and where she’s going to go with her intuitive eating rant. LOUISE: So, she was on the Biggest Loser for years and years and years. Her website … well, she’s touting herself as the world’s best trainer. Like, the biggest expert in the world on all things fitness. Which, well … this is just a hunch, but I could find people on the planet who are more qualified. ANNA: Well, if you want to break down her qualifications, I think it looks like she’s done a couple of personal training qualifications, a couple of fitness qualifications and … SHREEN: One ‘woo woo’ nutrition qualification. ANNA: There is a nutrition qualification there too, but it doesn’t look like there’s any degrees or anything. So, when it comes to intuitive eating and looking at all of that, when we go into it you’ll realise, I think, that she hasn’t really done her research. She doesn’t understand it. And I think it’s interesting that somebody without that nutrition background or lived experience with that sort of thing talks about it the way that she does. SHREEN: I think as well, not only does she come across really aggressive and shaming, also I think her insecurity is really coming out in this video. Intuitive eating is a movement that’s really starting to take off, and she’s clearly threatened by it. You can see her defence mechanism is up, and she’s … you know, really, just … her demeanour is just awful. LOUISE: It's hard to tell, though, if her demeanour’s just awful because she’s defensive or because her demeanour’s just awful. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s true. ANNA: I kind of picked up on that and thought she was sensing a threat because intuitive eating is becoming more mainstream, people are becoming more aware of it. So that could threaten what she does, because she makes a living forcing people to lose weight. LOUISE: So, during the 90’s and the early 2000’s, like … it was a free-for-all with bullying people with larger bodies, as we saw. World-wide, the Biggest Loser was the number one show, and everyone thought it was okay. So, she’s had this unfettered ability to be horrible about body size and really belittling of people in larger bodies. And now, I think she’s realising it’s not okay to keep on doing that. ANNA: The backlash about it. LOUISE: So, just to set the stage. What we’re seeing … because I did see the internet blow up. It was a while ago now, but let’s face it - we’ve all been in iso and unable to talk to each other. So, she has like a YouTube channel and one of her YouTube little presentations - I don’t watch what she does, just for my own mental health - but this one was Jillian Michaels talking about intuitive eating. Which, oh my god … let’s just get Donald Trump talking about sexism. ANNA: That’s a great analogy. SHREEN: She’s basically, I think she’s just gone on the website and just pulled up the principles without doing any research into it or even understanding there’s over a hundred studies done on intuitive eating and there’s a whole book as well. She just went on there, read out these principles and gave her, I guess, her opinion.  ANNA: It became really clear that she hasn’t taken the time to understand it. She hasn’t learnt about the authors; you’ll see as she comes to the end of it, she talks about assuming that it was written by somebody who had just had some bad experience with diet culture, maybe had an eating disorder LOUISE: Oh my god, that’s so disrespectful SHREEN: So disrespectful. ANNA: No understanding or bothering to explore that the authors are actually dietitians who had come up with this approach because they had done so much work with clients who had struggled a lot and this is what they’d learnt from working with them over years and years. LOUISE: These are the gurus. Like, Tribole and Resch, they wrote the initial book Intuitive Eating and it’s just been updated, which is fantastic. But even that, even their book which is written from that perspective of helping people recover from eating disorders, that book is built on another big long history of social justice and fat activism. To not recognise that intuitive eating is part of a social movement and like, the way she presented it is like, she just stumbled across a webpage and … oh my god. ANNA: Definitely, yeah. And it came across very, very condescending. I felt really bothered … SHREEN: It’s so harmful, as well. That was the thing that really bothered me the most, was how much … I mean, she causes so much harm anyway, but the message was just next level harm. And if anyone was watching that and had no idea, the things that she was saying … yeah, it’s just not on. LOUISE: Oh god, yikes. So, we thought we would unpick Jillian Michael’s feelpinion to each of the ten principles of intuitive eating. And you guys have written some awesomely detailed notes. ANNA: We had a really good chat about it. LOUISE: Fantastic. But I’m so interested, because you guys both work in this industry as HAES® positive, body inclusive, weight neutral trainers hearing from almost like the personification of diet culture woman. SHREEN: She is the reason why people have so much fitness trauma and so much negative association with fitness. She’s causing that. ANNA: She is the epitome of diet culture. SHREEN: Yeah, she is the epitome of diet culture, for sure. ANNA: And I think we chatted about this as we were hanging out one day, and we just came across this as a topic that fired both of us up. And it’s frustrating when you see … when you’re so heavily involved in this space, and the HAES® space, and the body inclusive space, it can be … and luckily for me working here at Haven, this is the space I come to work every day. So, I’m not exposed to traditional diet culture unless I stumble across it or it’s brought to my attention. So, I couldn’t help but just be really quite wild about this. LOUISE: I love it. I mean, I don’t love that you’re wild, but I kind of do. But, yeah. It’s nice to know that in this industry there are people who feel really strongly about just putting an end to this. She’s what’s wrong with the fitness industry at the moment, and you guys are the future. And I think she can smell that. So, I think, like I … I managed to watch it and still shaking with rage but thank you for this glass of champagne. ANNA: I don’t think we could do this without a little bit of champagne. SHREEN: No, we need some bubbles. LOUISE: The first thing she starts with, so she’s actually going through all the principles. SHREEN:  Correct. LOUISE: Why don’t you give me the lowdown on your reaction. ANNA: Let’s kick off. So, she does go through the points one by one, and the first principle is ‘reject the diet mentality’. And I just want to point out a few things that came up for me that were just so apparent throughout. Her fatphobia is so clear. She’s driven, everything she says, and her approach is all drive by this. And I think she’s very ignorant, like she doesn’t see that there’s an issue with this. She comes form that space where it’s very normalised to shame fat bodies, it’s not okay to be in a bigger body. And she very clearly associates weight and health, they’re so closely tied, which I think it really problematic, obviously. So, in this ‘reject diet mentality’, what came up for you, Shreen? SHREEN: Well, the first thing for me was that she couldn’t distinguish a difference between fad diets and what dieting is, and diet culture. She’s like, “oh you know, if it’s fad diets we’re talking about yeah, yeah sure”, but this is a woman who has sold supplements in the past. LOUISE: She’s sold fad diets. SHREEN: She’s sold fad diets. And she is diet culture, so I guess she can’t … she doesn’t understand what diet culture actually is and why it’s so important to reject it. I mean, diet culture in the US alone is worth 70 billion dollars. ANNA:  She profits off it. SHREEN: She profits off everyone’s insecurities. So, she was just like, “reject diet culture? What’s this, what does this mean?”. And I really did sense there that her insecurity is coming out there because that is her, that’s how she makes her money. ANNA: Well that’s it, she’s really incentivised to support diet culture.  LOUISE: But the distinction that she made between “well, if it’s fad, but if it’s proper” … it just made me laugh, because she’s had no less than four separate lawsuits … ANNA:  Jillian? SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: Launched against her by her consumers who bought her caffeine-fuelled diet pills. ANNA: Which I think she might have … there might have been something on the Biggest Loser where she gave them to contestants unfairly, apparently, as well. LOUISE: Oh my god, scandal on the Biggest Loser. Like … ANNA: Well, the other thing that came up for me there was she said, “what is this, healthy at any size?”, and that’s immediately a red flag representing that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. She hasn’t researched this because … I can understand it’s very easy to misconstrue Health At Every Size® for healthy at every size, but it’s quite a different meaning and that assumption that, you know, just assuming that we’re saying as a Health at Every Size® professional that all bodies are healthy, that’s not where we’re aiming. We’re talking about people being able to pursue health regardless of shape and size. LOUISE: Or, also, we’re talking about the choice not to pursue health and to be left the fuck alone. SHREEN: Yeah, there’s no moral obligation. If people want to do so, then it’s up to them. It shouldn’t be … they shouldn’t have to do it if they don’t want to, but that’s what diet culture is saying. ANNA: Your body, your rules. SHREEN: And this part of her rant really, really … we know that she’s incredibly fatphobic and she fat shames, but it just came out so much in that where she was again talking, talking about size 16. And she’s saying “well, you know, if you’re a size 16 of course I love you but you’re not healthy”. Which is just … LOUISE: Get fucked. SHREEN: Yeah, absolute garbage. ANNA: Yeah. And Health at Every Size® also is about respect for all bodies, and I think there is a real lack of respect in just making that assumption. You can’t tell. How does she know what someone’s health is, you know? What their metabolic functions are, their blood work, their social, mental health … you can’t tell that by someone’s size. SHREEN: Genetics, everything. There’s so much, it’s so multifaceted. LOUISE: Everything I think is just far too complicated for her. She has to actually, like … I mean, clearly, she hasn’t read anything or thought about anything. “Nope, that’s a number, that’s an assumption, and don’t challenge that”.  SHREEN: Yeah. And if someone’s watching that, I mean, how triggering. How much harm that one comment could cause somebody that could lead them down a path of dieting and to an eating disorder. ANNA: And especially if they were already vulnerable of somebody who would identify with being in a size 16, or plus. And also, size 16 is quite variable depending on which shop you shop in, you know? Where you get your clothes from. What’s a size anyway? What does it matter? SHREEN: Yeah, it doesn’t matter. LOUISE: Size is not the same as health, and she needs to pull her head in. I wonder if her YouTube videos come with a trigger warning. I don’t think they do, but they should. Because good point, you know, that she … everything she says is potentially a trigger. SHREEN: Especially the size of her audience as well, I’m worried. ANNA: She’s got a big reach still. Some of the comments though were interesting, some really great points. People were talking about intuitive eating and picking up on that she doesn’t understand it, she’s missing the point. LOUISE: That is really reassuring. ANNA: She stopped the comments, she cut them off. LOUISE: Oh no, they were too complicated. ANNA: So, the next principle is ‘honour your hunger’, and she said something pretty radical here. Well, it’s not really radical in the fitness world. These numbers get thrown around a lot. But trigger warning, there are numbers here. She says, “if you’re trying to lose weight, you can keep your body fed on as low as 1200 calories”. And that most women, especially those over, you know, relating to being a certain age, shouldn’t be eating over 1600 calories a day. SHREEN: Which is just absolutely unbelievable. She’s saying that … I mean, that’s what a toddler needs. A toddler needs 1200-1600 calories a day. LOUISE: How very dare she tell me how much I can eat, under a principle that says, ‘honour your hunger’. ANNA: She … on one hand, I’m not surprised she threw those numbers out because those numbers are thrown out all the time in the fitness world. I don’t know where … MyFitnessPal? LOUISE: Are they really? SHREEN: We were saying, MyFitnessPal may have started the whole 1200 calories thing … LOUISE: I think Michelle Bridges is guilty of that too. ANNA: Oh actually, you’re right, she had a program that was based on that. LOUISE: It’s just a nice round number, isn’t it? Let’s just pluck this out of our arse and throw that at all women. ANNA: What I find there though is that like Shreen said, it’s something that a child needs. And I just wanted to double-check that, because I’m not a nutritionist, I’m a yogi and I run a studio, but I wanted to check with somebody who does work with that. I chatted to our non-diet nutritionist Nina and she clarified that yes - this is generalisation - but that kind of number is something that would serve a child. Like, a toddler or a four, five-year-old. And then thinking about the effects of being on a low-calorie diet for a long period, things like loss of menstrual cycle, loss of bone density, fatigue, mood swings, constipation, blood sugar imbalance, stress hormones getting out of whack … SHREEN: Sex drive … ANNA: Sex drive … what did you say before? SHREEN: Dry vagina (laughs). ANNA: She didn’t mention that, did she? SHREEN: No. LOUISE: No, but that might be suffering all of them, you know? And why she’s so grouchy. ANNA: Memory fog and brain fog … memory loss and brain fog. So, these are all things that can be affected by not being adequately fed. And the better indicator of your needs are your body and your internal hunger signals. And we’re taught to … these external sources of just following this rule plan of 1200 calories a day means that if I need more than that – maybe at the time of my period especially I might need much more - and I’m just denying my natural hunger levels. LOUISE: The whole ‘per day’ thing really gives me the shits as well. SHREEN: Yeah, that’s a really good point. LOUISE: This is just a statistical method to help researchers make assumptions about nutrition. It’s not supposed to be something religiously followed. SHREEN: No, there’s no … ANNA: An individual thing, yeah. LOUISE: It’s bizarre. But, isn’t that interesting that even as she’s like, she’s trying desperately, the poor little thing to understand that this is a principle of intuitive eating but she can’t quite get there because she immediately lurches into “well, if you want to lose weight …”. I just felt like reaching through the screen and saying, “realise that intuitive eating is not a weight loss program”. ANNA: That’s half the problem, is that she clearly thinks that the only people who explore intuitive eating are going for weight loss. She says that a few times. LOUISE: Oh, she’s a scrambled egg. ANNA: Yeah. She doesn’t understand that the whole purpose of intuitive eating is more about finding a peaceful relationship with food and your body, not about trying to pursue making your body be something, a certain size. SHREEN: It’s about food freedom, it’s about having a healthy relationship with food, stopping the obsession. It’s not … it’s definitely not following these external rules. It’s about being in tune with what your body wants and needs and getting in touch with those signals. LOUISE: Different planet, I don’t think she’s visited. SHREEN: I don’t think she understands what the ‘honouring hunger’ … it’s a basic self-care need. If you’re not honouring hunger … LOUISE: Again, you’re mentioning a foreign concept here. This is someone who will happily live with a dry vagina, it doesn’t matter. SHREEN: Yep (all laugh). LOUISE: We all went there. SHREEN: She just really doesn’t understand and that is the reason why … people don’t give themselves enough food and they’re following diet plans, and they’re going to give themselves cravings leading to overeating and bingeing, and that’s perfectly normal as well. Other than ‘rejecting the diet mentality’ one of the first steps of intuitive eating is to just honour your hunger and it’s so important. It’s self-care. ANNA: It's so liberating too, if you’re been on the diet bandwagon for many, many years, to recognise that “hey, my body’s got a lot of wisdom, and it’s telling me, it’s giving me messages and I can learn how to reconnect with that”. And I think part of the common thread that comes up with what she says all the time is that … she thinks it’s all about ‘you can’t trust your body’. I think an important thing that I’ve learned is you can really learn how to trust your body. We get into this as we move into the next principle or two. It’s not about endless eating and not being able to, you know, like you’re just not going to go out of control all the time, which is what she sort of thinks. SHREEN: Point number three is that ‘unconditional permission to eat all foods’. LOUISE: She really had a problem with principle three. Like, she was visibly … SHREEN: Yeah, and she started comparing it to smoking, and credit cards, and it’s like …what are you talking about? ANNA: So yeah, this ‘make peace with food’, you’re right. And she talks about saying, talking about the ‘last supper mentality’, and she says, “I’m not religious, I don’t know what Jesus ate”. LOUISE: She really needs to read some books. ANNA: She needs to read Intuitive Eating if she’s going to talk about it. Because if she read it, she might really understand what that means. I thought it was quite clear just from the ‘last supper mentality’, don’t you think? SHREEN: You just eat everything in sight. LOUISE: I don’t even think it has religious connotations, I thought it was like a death row thing. SHREEN: Oh, that’s true … LOUISE: Like eating your last meal. ANNA: That’s right. And it makes sense, I think, if you think about that. You know you’re not going to have something again, so you want to make the most of it in that moment. And ultimately that’s what it’s about. I think that’s kind of clear. But she didn’t understand that, she was sort of like “I don’t like this intense, this hostile approach”. And I’m like, you ARE intense and hostile.  LOUISE: How is that intense and hostile? I’ve not ever read the ten principles of intuitive eating and thought “gosh, that’s angry”. I mean, gosh. Visit the internet, really (all laugh). ANNA: I think she is the, again, the epitome diet culture, and she is the hostile one. Think about the Biggest Loser, she is very aggressive and in-your-face, pushing her clients. So, here she talks about it all being about self-control and willpower, and I think that’s missing the point of intuitive eating completely as well. LOUISE: She just can’t … SHREEN: She doesn’t understand. If she’d read the book, she would understand there’s science behind it as well, if she … LOUISE: I don’t think if she read the book she would understand.  SHREEN: Yeah (laughs) ANNA: I picked up on that too, she’s [inaudible]. LOUISE: She almost yelled “You do not permission to eat”. Which was quite scary. SHREEN: Because I think that reflects her inner narrative. That’s what’s going on in her head. LOUISE: Yeah. Not … not relaxed, that’s for sure. That response to the third point was quite unhinged. ANNA: And like you said, relating the food to credit cards or smoking, that’s a completely different thing. I don’t think … you know, food is something that we rely on, like biologically … SHREEN: We need food to survive, we need food … and intuitive eating is about healing your relationship to food, it’s about having a healthy relationship to food, and you can’t have that if you’re restricting foods. That’s why it’s really important to give yourself unconditional permission to eat. And yeah, it is scary. Of course. It’s scary when you’ve come from that mentality, but it’s the only way for food to lose its power. ANNA: Yeah. And I think it may be a good point to think about how it’s helpful to be handheld through that process. It can sound really scary to somebody who’s new to it, or who hasn’t delved into intuitive eating too much, or worked with a coach or therapist or something. Maybe working with a. dietitian on this would be really helpful. I understand how it can feel like that lack of control, but I think that’s a period that sometimes is part of that healing process. When you let go of the restriction, and allow yourself full unconditional permission to eat, then you might explore some of those foods that were off-limits for a period. And it might feel like you are diving into them a lot. But … LOUISE: Which is perfectly normal. SHREEN: Yeah. LOUISE: The last supper effect … like, that actually, now I remember. The ‘last supper’ effect, it is the paper by Herman and Polivy, “Eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we diet”. That’s the ‘last supper’ effect. It’s a perfectly normal psychological response to restriction is to eat more. And the difference between that and going into massive credit card debt is if you keep giving yourself permission to eat, if you keep reminding yourself that the food’s always there, it’s perfectly safe and I’m allowed to eat it, you will naturally settle down when you get food safety. Eating is totally different to compulsive spending on credit cards. I think she’s just … a lot of people freak out when they let go of dieting and get into that all-or-nothing pattern with eating, but there’s like … a real difference between being in an all-or-nothing pattern of eating and adopting intuitive eating and going through that first phase of eating all the food. It’s just different, and its’ not pathological. It’s a normal response to restriction that obviously … she is so restricted and terrified of that. ANNA: It’s all about control, isn’t it? And I think that, you know, talking about the 1200-1600 calories, and I think she refers to that 1600 calories as something you should never, ever go over. So, as a woman, we’re meant to live our lives constantly not going above that. SHREEN: And it’s such a dangerous message. It’s just not enough food, at all. And it’s … and that’s what she’s selling to people, as well … LOUISE: She’s more like ‘honour your restriction’. SHREEN: Yeah! ANNA: We could reverse all of this and create a Jillian Michaels plan. LOUISE: The non-intuitive eating principles. Accept diet culture … what’s the second one? ANNA: Honour your hunger … don’t honour your hunger. LOUISE: Ignore your hunger. SHREEN: Ignore your hunger, yeah. LOUISE: Number three, you do not have permission to eat (all laugh). Alright, principle four? ANNA: Principle four is ‘challenge the food police’. LOUISE: Okay, so hers would be ‘obey the food police’. SHREEN: I don’t think she really understands that she is the food police. When she’s going through it? Like she is … the food police are all the things she’s already talked about. 1200 calories, 1600 calories, these are things that are the food police. ANNA: These are the rules. SHREEN: She doesn’t understand that principle at all. ANNA: The one thing that she said that I did agree with her on was “don’t beat yourself up”. I think she says it in a different way, she means it in a different way, because she kind of adds on and says, “don’t beat yourself up, but don’t fuck up”. Oh sorry. LOUISE:  Please, swear. ANNA: She says, not quite like that, but “maintain balance, it’s all about balance”. And don’t … SHREEN: And self-control. ANNA: So, “don’t beat yourself up, but just don’t do it”, sort of thing. SHREEN: Or, “you can do better”. She always says that, “you can do better”. ANNA: Yeah, so that message is like, it’s still that sort of shaming approach. SHREEN: Condescending. LOUISE: It makes no sense whatsoever. ANNA: But don’t beat yourself up, I mean, that’s important. LOUISE: You know what, ‘don’t beat yourself up’ means she knows people are not going to be able to do it.  ANNA: That’s a good point, yeah. Yeah, which she talks about the… LOUISE: … about going straight back to jail. ANNA: She talks about the stats, which is interesting. She brings up the stats. LOUISE: Oh, the stats. Yeah, that bit made me itchy. ANNA: That’s coming. It’s coming. The next one is ‘discover the satisfaction factor’, which I think she was actually in agreement with. SHREEN: Yeah, that one … she was saying, food for pleasure … I think that one was almost okay. ANNA: Like wow, okay, we agree. And then six was ‘feel your fullness’. And what came up here was again, it was just clear she hasn’t read the book because she didn’t understand that concept at all. LOUISE: She probably doesn’t know what fulness feels like. SHREEN: And then she started talking about how it’s in your head, and kind of went off … even I got a little bit lost with what she was saying. Like, “oh, we’re on fullness principle? I thought we were …” ANNA: She was kind of saying, yeah, she was kind of saying that if you’re not listening to your body, you’re not picking up your fullness levels, there’s something messed up in your head. And I was thinking, you know what? Sometimes I eat food and I’m quite satisfied physically but I’m still eating because the food’s really good, or I don’t want to … I’m eating in company and I don’t want to finish the meal and want to show that I’ve appreciated it … SHREEN: That’s the thing with intuitive eating, that it’s not the ‘hunger/fullness’ diet. And eating past fullness is normal. It’s totally okay. And it’s not just about eating, you know, getting in touch with your fullness signals. It’s about eating foods that give you pleasure and satisfaction. ANNA: Which is the ‘discover the satisfaction factor’. SHREEN: Which is the next one, but yeah. (sighs). LOUISE: God. So, if you can’t feel fullness, there’s something psychologically wrong with you.  ANNA: That’s the message that she’s giving, yeah. SHREEN: But not understanding that if you’re dieting or especially if you’re only eating those dangerous amount of calories a day, you’re going to be absolutely … LOUISE: You mean, like an adult [inaudible] SHREEN: (laughs). Absolutely starving and of course you’re not going to feel your fullness. But there’s nothing wrong with you, it’s just your body. Your body is doing exactly what it is meant to do. It needs food. ANNA: She doesn’t see that 1200-1600 calories as a restriction. She sees it as like … SHREEN: That’s her normal. ANNA: That’s food, that’s what you’re allowed during the day. LOUISE: So depressing. ANNA: Pretty sure I eat double or triple that. LOUISE: Oh, my goodness. ANNA: So, we’re at number seven. We’re still only … oh, over halfway. ‘Cope with your emotions with kindness’.  SHREEN: I think the thing is … LOUISE: That doesn’t really bring her to my mind. SHREEN: Yeah. She kind of goes “oh, yeah, I agree with this, but it shouldn’t just be one paragraph …”. And I’m like YES, there’s a BOOK. A book! There’s a whole book to go with this.  ANNA: She clearly seems to think it’s just this very basic, you know, overview … SHREEN: Guidelines. ANNA: Yeah, just these ten principles. She hasn’t read the book; she doesn’t know who wrote it. LOUISE: No, but this one really shat me to tears. Because this is where she’s saying that she’s had some childhood history with being maybe fractionally larger than someone else and has had to do, like … basically what she’s saying is that if you cannot lose weight and keep it off forever, that is your psychological fault. SHREEN: Yep. LOUISE: You haven’t done the work in therapy to fix your seemingly not thin body. Which is like, such a load of bullshit. And just unscientific and not sound whatsoever. And like you were saying before, people … she doesn’t understand that food is a relationship, and it’s a complex relationship. And the refusal to see anything other than like … she doesn’t even mention hunger as a reason to eat. Anything other than eating to a calorie control, anything else is incorrect. And we eat for an infinite amount of reasons and all of them make sense. And that’s what I love about intuitive eating, it doesn’t pathologise eating. It doesn’t pathologise hunger, it doesn’t pathologise fullness, and it doesn’t pathologise emotions as a reason to eat. And she clearly is. Seeing the function of how wonderful sometimes binge eating is as a way of protecting yourself from [inaudible] stuff. There’s no pathologizing in intuitive eating, but she’s full of pathologizing thinking that even to read statements like this, it doesn’t sink in. ANNA: She’s oversimplifying the whole thing; she doesn’t understand it at all. And this is where she moves into talking about the percentage of people that are successful versus not successful at diets. SHREEN: So, she acknowledges that 95-98% of diets fail. Is this where she starts talking about the Biggest Loser? ANNA: Yeah. SHREEN: She then starts talking about how the Biggest Loser, there’s a 30% extra success rate if you follow the Biggest Loser method. LOUISE: Really? SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: So, she basically says, she acknowledges that the studies are very clear that 95% of people are unable to sustain a diet or sustain that weight loss, not a diet. But she says that actually on the Biggest Loser it’s only 65% of people that fail. So actually … SHREEN: So, she’s basically saying “we’ve got this success rate, if you do this …” LOUISE: Which study is this published in? Because the only study I’ve read from season 1 which is the … ANNA: The six-year study? SHREEN: The six year, yeah, really interesting. LOUISE: There were 16 people, and 14 of them regained. I don’t think that equates to 65%. Am I …? ANNA: I don’t know but even so … no, she says 35. So, 30% more than … she says 30%, 35% are successful. SHREEN: But even the fact that she’s now saying that 95-98% of diets fail, and she acknowledges that, but all that she’s been talking about is dieting. Diet the whole way through. She’s just completely contradicting herself. ANNA: Not only is it that they don’t work, but she continues to spruik it, continues to say that it’s possible, and if you do it her way, the Biggest Loser way … they did 7 hours of exercise a day, with gruelling regimes and being pushed and yelled at … LOUISE: And they all put the weight back on. ANNA: They put the weight back on. SHREEN: yeah. LOUISE: And their resting metabolic rate was screwed, six years later. SHREEN: Yeah, 700 calories it decreased by. They lost lean body mass, their fasting glucose increased, their blood sugar levels, yeah. They were the main things. But the fact that their metabolic rate decreased by such a large amount … especially where we were saying, she’s telling people to only eat 1200 calories but then you’re going to follow the Biggest Loser method, your metabolic rate’s going to drop by 700 calories, then what are you going to do? LOUISE: So, she lied about the stats on the Biggest Loser, and she’s not even talking to people about the metabolic impact. Because that study was fascinating, and I talk to clients about it. Because they predicted, the researchers predicted how much their resting metabolic rate would be dropped by …  ANNA: And what did they … LOUISE: And they found out it was even lower. So, they were worse off metabolically than they had predicted six years later. No one expected it to last that long, to have such a devastating impact. ANNA: Yeah, so it’s like a continued effect. It hasn’t regained back to before, pre … LOUISE: Exactly. And when stuff like that is suppressed, we know people are going to experience intense hunger, which of course you can’t honour. SHREEN: And the thing is, again, she’s completely misquoted this study herself but if she’d done her research she would know that there’s been over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done that show you have better body image, higher esteem, improved metabolism, decreased rates of disordered and emotional eating, diminished stress levels and increased satisfaction with life. That’s over a hundred studies on intuitive eating that have been done. ANNA: And I’m pretty sure that you couldn’t say the same, with all of those positive effects, with dieting. LOUISE:  No, especially the ones that use her supplements, which show that everyone puts the weight back on. And the Biggest Loser study, everyone puts the weight back on … but let’s not focus on whether or not the weight comes back on. It’s actually the damage to the body and the metabolic systems that’s just absent from her rant. SHREEN: And not even the psychological damage, that’s not even mentioned. LOUISE: She’s evidence of the psychological damage. SHREEN: Yeah. That is true, yeah. ANNA: So, the next one is … principle eight, respect your body. LOUISE: Oh, fuck. ANNA: So, I think going back to when she spoke about size 16 always equalling healthiness, I think that shows that she doesn’t have respect for all bodies. And that kind of bothers me a bit. SHREEN. A bit. A lot. ANNA: It’s a big part of like, you know, our approach here and being a Health at Every Size® professional, you know? It’s about honouring and understanding and respecting that all bodies are different and need something different. SHREEN: And that you can’t tell somebody’s health by their body size, and that’s such … it’s a huge misconception as it is, let alone, I mean, Jillian Michaels saying this and it’s just … ANNA: Yeah, and just recognising that bodies are diverse, and they will do different things. Your health looks different at different points in your life. What you need changes day to day, and only your body really knows. You know? No external source, no trainer, no Jillian Michaels, no Dr Oz, nobody knows your body. SHREEN: And the whole principle of respecting your body is about being kind to yourself and compassionate and self-care, which is the complete opposite of Jillian Michaels. Like, she is just not kind. She’s not compassionate. She’s just shaming, judgemental, mean. Like … yeah. She’s … I just don’t think she even understands the word ‘respect’, quite frankly. LOUISE: Unless it’s like ‘respect my authority”. SHREEN: Yeah. ANNA: Something I noticed too, that came up before, was that because she’s so invested in it … have you heard of the concept of religion, like dieting? The religion of dieting? She’s so completely invested in it, she’s almost not willing to look the other way, or explore that there might be some truth in this, because she’s so invested, like financially and that’s her way of living … LOUISE: It’s her identity. ANNA: Exactly. LOUISE: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think Alan Levinovitz, ‘The Gluten Lie’ … ANNA: That’s the guy. LOUISE: He talks about this, the religion of diet mentality. She is definitely the Pope. SHREEN: Quote of the day (all laugh). ANNA: So, then we come into ‘movement, feel the difference’. Which is principle nine. SHREEN: I think this one really got us fired up, didn’t it? ANNA: Well, the first thing that she said was like, “what is this? I don’t know what this ‘militant exercise’ even means”. LOUISE: That’s so funny (all laugh). ANNA: Like, really? Are you sure? LOUISE: She’s like, world-famous on memes for [inaudible]. I think I even did a presentation once where I used her with her finger in her face at someone as a demonstration of militant exercise. ANNA: Yeah, the kind of exercise that you don’t want to do if you want to have a sustainable relationship with movement. LOUISE: Yeah, your name’s on the t-shirt, love. SHREEN: Just telling people in this thing that, you know, this myth that’s just not true – ‘no pain, no gain’, that only hard exercise counts, it’s just utter rubbish. All movement counts, it doesn’t matter what it is. From playing with your kids, to hoovering, to dancing around your living room. LOUISE: Hoovering doesn’t count, I don’t even know what hoovering is … ANNA: She’s talking about hoovering, the hoover … SHREEN: Vacuuming, is that more Aussie? LOUISE: No, I don’t understand. (all laugh). SHREEN: But like, movement can be anything and you get the exact same health benefits from any type of regular movement, doesn’t matter what it is. But what she’s just trying to … she’s just bringing movement and aesthetics, that’s what she’s talking about. She’s talking about … ANNA: That’s a really good point, because if she was really interested in somebody’s health, then any kind of movement would be accessible, you know, like … SHREEN: Beneficial. ANNA: Helpful, yeah. SHREEN: Your blood markers, and stress levels, and sleep, it doesn’t matter what it is, it has the same health benefits. But she’s not talking about health. She’s talking about the way you look. ANNA: Yeah. She’s talking about ‘results’ a lot, and “if you want to get results fast” … because you know, let’s face it, she says “if you’re coming to look at intuitive eating, you’re trying to lose weight, you’re trying to get results fast.” LOUISE: Jillian! ANNA: “You’ve got to do a certain type of exercise, and my programs do that”. So, a little bit of spruiking her own programs too. SHREEN: What she doesn’t realise that she’s doing is having that negative relationship with exercise is not going to make people want to do it.  LOUISE: She doesn’t care about that. SHREEN: She’s the reason why people don’t want to go to the gym, or they hate exercise, because of people like Jillian Michaels. ANNA: Yeah, it’s that fitness trauma that you were talking about before. And what I recognise here, at the studio at Haven, community … in my experience, community has always been really powerful in building that sustainable and healthful relationship with movement. Joy and … SHREEN: And it’s that you enjoy, you [inaudible]. ANNA: And to want to come back, too. And that militant approach might work well for someone who responds to that but maybe for a short time. And then that motivation kind of wanes. And then it’s always trying to get back the motivation, you hear that a lot in fitness culture. But if you’re not coming at it from external, an external place, for external purposes, and it’s more about the … SHREEN: The way it makes you feel, using it as a tool for self-care rather than punishment … ANNA: Your mental health, having fun with your friends, it’s a completely different experience to being yelled at by Jillian Michaels. SHREEN: Her whole thing is yelling at people, making them feel guilty, punishing them. Like, and that’s just not what people need in a fitness professional. They need someone who is kind and compassionate and she’s just … that’s just not her, unfortunately. She’s just giving … ANNA: What is she? She’s the Pope of … the religion of dieting. She’s also the epitome of diet culture. She’s all of those things. And then the last principle is gentle nutrition, principle ten. LOUISE: I think this actually blew up her brain. SHREEN: Yeah, because she couldn’t understand the whole diet … principle one, principle ten … LOUISE: She couldn’t figure out how that fits with unconditional permission to eat. Because of course, if you have unconditional permission to eat, you’re going to stick your face into a burger for the rest of your life.  ANNA: Yeah, so again she thinks it’s all just endless eating. LOUISE: She’s stuck in that ‘all or nothing’ mentality. ANNA: Exactly, yeah. SHREEN: It’s funny, because she talks about that ‘black and white, all or nothing’ mentality and not understanding that’s exactly what she’s saying. Yeah. ANNA: Yeah, and again it came up just very, very clear that she hasn’t read the book, she doesn’t really know what she’s talking about. SHREEN: Yeah, I think that’s the main … ANNA: This is when she said, you know, “it’s probably written by someone who has just really been hurt by diet culture and probably had an eating disorder, and, you know, probably just some random” and actually … LOUISE: Such a shame that she didn’t actually look at the author. SHREEN: Yeah, just even look up to who they were. Yeah. ANNA: It’s a little bit disappointing because you’d think somebody who has such a following, I think, has such a … I think there’s a moral obligation in a way to represent something that … when you have such a big following and you’re sharing something that can affect people deeply … SHREEN: It’s what we say, that she’s really coming from that dieting mentality and all that sort of shaming that she doesn’t understand that intuitive eating at its core is a self-care model. It’s very compassionate and she doesn’t understand that. Also. with intuitive eating, we’re not saying that it’s a solution for everybody. Everyone has the right to do what they want with their body. She just doesn’t understand the concept at all, what it stands for. ANNA: It’s like she’s on such a different planet, and it’s not … doesn’t come across as open to exploring that this might be something that really serves people. SHREEN: Yeah, and that it’s having such a positive impact. We talked about earlier with the … ANNA: Feeling a bit threatened by the impact on her, you know, her … LOUISE: To her bottom line. I also think that, I mean, if she really is undernourished to that point that she has restricted her entire life, one of the things that happens when you’re weight supressed is cognitive rigidity. ANNA: That’s a really good point. LOUISE: So, it’s quite hard to be flexible. We see that a lot with people who are suffering in the depths of Anorexia, that you simply cannot think. And perhaps there’s an element of that that’s happening here. ANNA: That’s really interesting. SHREEN: That’s a really good point. Because what dieting, that kind of restriction is doing to you … LOUISE: Well, it gives her massive benefits. Huge amounts of recognition, it gives her income. She can’t think out of it. So, there’s not a lot of reason for her, like … I think the reason for putting up that video wasn’t a genuine exploration of “what’s this thing called ‘intuitive eating’?”.  SHREEN: It was just to … LOUISE: It was just to kind of … ANNA: Debunk it. LOUISE: To debunk it and keep hold of her customer base. Look, let’s assume that she is interested in the book. Jillian Michael’s house is in Malibu, California. I reckon we just whack a copy in an envelope, address it to her, maybe she’ll read it. ANNA: Do you think?  LOUISE: Yeah? I don’t know. Maybe if all of our listeners whack a copy into an envelope … SHREEN: Yeah!  LOUISE: 20 copies, please read. Maybe. SHREEN: Maybe, yeah. LOUISE: But I don’t think that was anything other than a … it’s quite interesting, I’m seeing this more and more. The famous people, the people who have really invested in diet culture, even the obesity researchers and all of that. They’re all kind of getting a little bit nervous about this pushback. SHREEN: They should be. LOUISE: It makes me feel warm and fuzzy. SHREEN: It’s time. LOUISE: It’s got nothing to do with the champagne. I think the celebs are getting nervous, like “what do you mean, people in larger bodies are okay with themselves just the way they are?”. And finding non weight-loss things to look after themselves, oh my gosh. What a huge, horrible threat. So, we’re not sorry, Jillian, that we made you nervous. ANNA: Agreed. I hope it gives her a little bit of food for thought (all laugh). LOUISE: I don’t know how many calories would be attached to that thought (all laugh). ANNA: I have to say, like, the thing that I think fires me up the most is how fatphobic she is. SHREEN: And how much harm … that’s the thing that fired me up the most, how much harm she’s causing people out there. And having had an eating disorder myself, it’s just … LOUISE: Horrible. You can see how triggering it is. SHREEN: I can see what it can do, yeah. That’s what fires me up. LOUISE: and let’s not forget when we say fatphobic, we mean people who hate fat people. And that is really reflective … even though she is professing “oh, I’m going to love you … but you’re unhealthy so change”. That’s troubling. Using health as a halo, an excuse or a reason for my core treatment of you just based on your appearance. And that’s just … those days are done. You can’t do that anymore. It’s just not cool. And I do wonder if there is like a Biggest Loser university somewhere?  ANNA: Michelle Bridges went to it as well. LOUISE: Because the same kind of hatred of fat people, you know … again, like masked with a thin layer of concern trolling for your health was Michelle Bridges’ thing. Four years ago, when she was on Australian Story and she was saying “I’m yet to meet someone who is morbidly obese and happy”. So, for people who are listening from overseas, Michelle Bridges is the Australian version of Jillian Michaels. And what an awful comment. So, Jillian has been pushed back against from this video, right? Michelle was pushed back against from this video too, with really clear … I know we all live in a bubble, but with quite a lot of push back. ANNA: That’s good. Was she on … was that on like Australian primetime TV? SHREEN: She was on Australian Story. LOUISE: Yeah [inaudible] … it shows how deeply she feels [inaudible] about people she’s profiting from. Putting them through three cycles a year of 1200 calorie program and she knows it doesn’t work. But the thing is, what they do is they double down. People like this double down, when they’re called out, when there’s a pushback. Instead of kind of opening up and say, “okay, I should probably issue an apology, maybe take the video down, maybe do some work”. They’re not doing that. Jillian’s not doing that. ANNA: I think she just keeps responding. And she’s just responding with the same rhetoric, so she’s not … SHREEN: I think she kind of comments that [inaudible], to learn about it more, which is a shame. ANNA: And how did Michele Bridges respond? LOUISE: Doubled down on it. About health, “I care deeply about health”. ANNA: The whole thing with health and weight, this is what really frustrates me about it too. If she’s really interested in health, she could support all the behaviours that support someone’s health. LOUISE: Too complicated. Remember? Too complicated. Anything that actually involves having to think about something other than my own diet plan … ANNA: It makes me realise how happy I’ve become in moving away from all this, that’s why I got away from it. Because I learned about how there’s another way. Intuitive eating, Health at Every Size®, the body positivity movement … I started delving into it and it just felt so triggering being around other fitness professionals from the traditional approach. And this here, I’ve got to say, got me so fired up. I’m going to be fired up for a while from this. SHREEN: We talk about fitness trauma, and Jillian Michaels is causing that. LOUISE: May she go the way of the dinosaurs and … (all laugh). ANNA: Well, hopefully there will be less and less of her to be seen in the future and more and more of kind of this messaging coming up, challenging … LOUISE: Absolutely, I absolutely think that’s going to happen. You’ve just reminded me actually, she … because Jillian, earlier in the year before she posted the nasty intuitive eating thing, she said something nasty about Lizzo. SHREEN: Yeah, of course.  ANNA: That sounds familiar … SHREEN: Yeah. That was before …  LOUISE: A little while before, I don’t know. It’s Covid, none of us have a timeline. ANNA: She’s said some pretty horrendous things. SHREEN: Really horrendous things yeah. LOUISE: Again, like … “she’s clearly going to get diabetes” or something? ANNA: I think she said something along the lines of “there’s nothing sexy about diabetes”, or clogged arteries or something.  SHREEN: Something like that, yeah. ANNA: How can she … that’s so inappropriate. Lizzo’s bouncing away on stage. She’s got stamina, she’s got energy.  SHREEN: We don’t know anything about her or her health. ANNA: And why do we have to talk about that anyway? She’s this amazing performer and doing this really cool stuff. It’s wonderful to see some diverse bodies out there that are getting out there as much as the other, the thin ideal that you see everywhere. LOUISE: Yeah, the comments that she made were like “why are we talking about Lizzo’s body, we should be talking about her music”. ANNA: So, she said that? LOUISE: Yeah. ANNA: But then … LOUISE: And it’s really funny, because she’s saying that we shouldn’t be talking about Lizzo’s body, but her entire website is full of shots of her body. ANNA: Yeah, and that’s her thing. SHREEN: That’s her thing, yeah. ANNA: She’s always talking about people’s bodies. Size 16, yeah. SHREEN: Yeah, non-stop. LOUISE: The point I’m making is that you don’t say that about Lizzo. And the pushback she got after she made that comment? This is the future Jillian. Lizzo is setting the world on fire.  ANNA: We need more Lizzo. SHREEN: We need more Lizzo. LOUISE: and you are the biggest loser. ANNA: Well put. LOUISE: Oh my god, let’s finish on a high note. Thank you, guys, that was an elegant unpacking of Jillian Michael’s ten principles of not understanding intuitive eating (all laugh). And how firmly we can steer the ship to this new awesome way of looking after our body. ANNA: Thank you. SHREEN: Thank you.  Resources Mentioned: (Watch if you can stomach) Jillian Michaels' Igno-rant on Youtube Urbszat, Dax, C. Peter Herman, and Janet Polivy. "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we diet: Effects of anticipated deprivation on food intake in restrained and unrestrained eaters." Journal of abnormal psychology 111.2 (2002): 396. News article about 4 lawsuits against Jillian Michaels for her weight loss pills Fothergill, Erin, et al. "Persistent metabolic adaptation 6 years after “The Biggest Loser” competition." Obesity 24.8 (2016): 1612-1619. Alan Levinovitz's The Gluten Lie Find out more about Anna Hearn & Haven Find out more about Shreen El Masry and Be You Be Free  

Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Childless not by Choice Podcast, where my mission is to recognize and speak to childless not by choice women and men around the world. Civilla Morgan here. I am spreading the great news that we can live a joyful, relevant, and fulfilled life, although we did not have the children we so wanted. I also welcome you even if you do not fit the demographic. Maybe you did not want children, maybe you have children. Thanks for tuning in.  Welcome to episode 121!  Today’s show... Well, before we get into today’s show, why doesn't the church talk about childlessness? I would like to stop and recognize that this month makes five years of podcasting, speaking to, and encouraging the hearts of the childless not by choice community globally!  The platform itself is slightly older, with the podcast becoming the center of the platform. It does not make the other aspects of the platform: the blog, the community, the website, any less important, but honestly, the podcast is what really gets the word out. Once you listen to the episodes hopefully you are curious enough to come on in and explore the rest of the platform.   If I stopped podcasting today I would still see this as one of my great accomplishments. I don’t mean this in a self-congratulatory way. I believe the goal of creating a place for the childless not by choice community to come to; whether it is the Facebook groups, the newsletter, or the podcast; a place has been carved out for us, the childless not by choice demographic with this podcast, this platform.  And I am grateful God chose me to do it. I am even more grateful that you are listening because that means you are finding value, getting help, and finding commiseration. Community. And you know how I feel about Community.       Once again, thank you!  So, there is a lot more in the show notes than what I have said. Please, please visit the show notes when you listen to the episodes. Every episode is chock full of great information. When I listen to podcasts I browse the show notes while I am listening. Unless I am driving of course. Never browse show notes while driving! In fact, as a podcaster, I listen to podcasts about podcasts. Those particular podcasts I listen to while I am at home, at my desk, because I sometimes take notes and follow up on suggestions literally while listening to the podcast.  Some people have told me that they listen to this podcast without distraction. Some of my podcasts I listen to at night. Find your podcast listening groove. See what works for you.       Patreon Contributors: I would also like to thank my patrons for their monthly financial contributions to the platform. If you would like to join the Patreon family of monthly contributors, visit patreon.com/childlessnotbychoice, and set up your monthly contribution for as little as $5.00 per month! No matter your giving level, I have a gift for you!   And if you prefer to give a one time gift via PayPal, you can find me there at booksbycivillamorgan@gmail.com. Either way, your contributions to the platform are greatly appreciated! Thank you! https://www.patreon.com/Childlessnotbychoice Jordan Morgan The Knights Your Name HereQuestions or comments? Contact me at:   Email: Info@civillamorgan.com                                                  Or   Visit the website at www.childlessnotbychoice.net, look to the left on the home screen, and click on the link below the telephone to leave me an up to 90-second voicemail. Stitcher Premium info: Your Success Dashboard: https://app.periscopedata.com/shared/cab7b213-4764-4c6a-acb1-6cda055b4c4d? Your Promo Code: NOTBYCHOICE   Stitcher Premium Promo Copy: Wherever  -- or however -- you’re listening to this podcast right now, take a moment and check out Stitcher. Those of you listening on Stitcher already get why. For those who don’t know what Stitcher is, it is a FREE podcast app for iPhone and Android and home to over two hundred and sixty thousand podcasts. Stitcher also has smart recommendations, playlists, a car mode, even a sleep timer! While the Stitcher app is free to use, they also offer a Premium subscription service called Stitcher Premium that has exclusive bonus episodes from top shows, exclusive shows from top hosts, and ad-free listening all for only $4.99 per month or $34.99 per year. Check out Stitcher Premium today and remember to use Promo code NOTBYCHOICE.     As I mentioned in the last episode, on Mother’s Day, a couple of months ago at this point,  we had a nice little get together in our Childless not by Choice with Civilla Morgan Facebook group.  It was nice to get together with other women who may have varying degrees of difficulty dealing with Mother’s Day.  By the time you hear this episode, we would have had our July meeting. If you are not already a member of the Facebook group, come on over, answer the pre-entry questions, and join us in the group! If you do not fit the demographic, there is a Childless not by Choice with Civilla Morgan Supporters group as well.   So one of the ladies in our Facebook group, Childless not by Choice with Civilla Morgan, asked why doesn’t the church talk about childless women...you know, barren women as the Bible calls us. And I got to thinking that the reason is the Bible never talked about a barren woman who remained barren. All of the barren women in the Bible’s stories ended up having children.  So then church folk are left to think from a wide range of thoughts, ‘just give it time’, to ‘what did you do wrong?’ to ‘What are you doing wrong?’ I was talking to a friend about the fact that I was working on this episode recently, and she said ‘well what about Anna? So let’s talk about Anna for a minute. Anna, not to be confused with Hannah. Because Hannah begged God for a child and ended up with six including her firstborn who would eventually become one of the most known prophets in the Old Testament, Samuel.  Not only was Samuel a prophet, but he was also a counselor to kings. But Anna. Well, according to The New Testament, Luke 2:36, Anna was a prophetess who was quite elderly by the time she is mentioned. She had been married for seven years and then widowed for more than 80 years. She never remarried instead spending her time in the synagogue praying and fasting. She met Jesus when his mother brought him to the temple as a baby. As far as I have researched, she never had children.  That’s Anna. Everyone else, all of the other barren women mentioned in the Bible who were childless and cried out to God, got an answer of ‘yes’. Rachel, Hannah, Sarah. Young, old, somewhere in between; they got their child. Sarah had Jacob. Rachel had Joseph and Benjamin. Hannah had Samuel and five other children. Oh, by the way, the woman with the issue of blood, she may have had children before the issue. There is no mention of that, nothing came up in my research.  The question and the title of this episode is ‘Why doesn’t the church talk about childlessness?’ But my question is ‘Why didn’t God talk about childlessness?’ Childlessness as in the woman who never got the child? I have some ideas. Some of them may seem like cop-outs, but well, here goes:  First of all, I’m quite sure there were barren, aka childless women in that era. Childlessness is nothing new. I mean just biologically it would make sense, and remember, the women I mentioned earlier initially could not have children.      Remember, women were considered next to nothing if they were childless. OK, they were considered worthless if they had no children.  In fact, although Hannah’s husband loved her dearly, when he realized they weren’t having children he brought on a second wife. He had to have children to carry the family line. Today, in some parts of the world, women are still looked on with disdain if they cannot have children.    But listen to this: if a woman was wealthy enough, they could have a servant have a child for them. Which is what Sarah, Abraham’s wife, and Rachel--wife of Jacob, initially did. They had their maids sleep with their respective husbands and then raised the children their maids had as their own. Until in Sarah’s case, it was no longer convenient. Sarah’s maid had Ishmael, but then her maid began to forget her station in life, and Sarah wasn’t having any of that, she tried to have them--the maid and her son, her husband’s son, sent away. You can read the story. The link is in the show notes.  We now live in a society where although we run into the random person who does not understand our childlessness and the pain that can come with that childlessness, I believe the women in that time had it much harder than we do today. Yes, if we are childless and in some cases also husbandless, we have concerns about our elder years, we are the sole breadwinner for our households, people wonder what is wrong with us, really?  Back then, a woman’s son was her retirement plan. Basically, the more children she had, the better her elder years looked. But back to the question, why doesn’t the church talk about childlessness? Why wasn’t there a direct story in the Bible about a woman who never had children? Yes, there was Anna. But why wasn’t her childlessness confirmed or highlighted? Why wasn’t there a direct story about a woman like me? Like you, if you are listening as a childless not by choice woman?       Could it be that there are so many problematic layers to the human condition, and in this case the issues around childlessness, that the church, like society, just wants every aspect of our lives to fit into neat little boxes, and when an issue does not fit, well, better to look the other way, remain silent, highlight the miracle baby, and highlight the woman who has children. We all love the cute, cuddly little people right? So if you cannot have one, well…it’s not like the church does not address the other issues people come into the church with such as alcoholism, adultery, lack, even hate. But childlessness? Well, maybe you’re not praying correctly. Or back to what I said earlier, something is wrong with you, you are doing something wrong, you did something wrong.  In too few cases, the church talks about the true-life fact that God does not answer every prayer the way we want or ask. Some women will not marry? Some men will not marry. Some couples will not have children. Does that make us weird?  Does your church have a singles ministry for people to be normal in their singleness, without feeling like they are attending a meat market every time there is a singles event? Could we have a singles event where we can allow people to possibly meet their future spouse organically? Can we have conventions where we have a breakout session for childless couples, childless women, etc? Is it possible for the church to see us instead of looking the other way instead of treating us like unanswered prayers? I have hope.  We are living in a time of great change. And that great change is including the church whether the church likes it or not. I am hoping that change will allow for more inclusivity of those of us who tend to live on the fringes, in the cracks, you know, as in ‘we tend to fall into the cracks’. And then we pretend we’re OK but we know that on some level we are being judged. Judged that we did not get the spouse. Judged that we did not have the child. Judged because our family of one or if you did get the spouse, a family of two; doesn’t quite look ‘normal’.    Look, the fact is I don’t know why God didn’t mention the barren woman, but I do know that’s no excuse for the church not to mention her because there are other issues God did not go into great detail about, but the church has a definite opinion on how to deal with those issues.   I think the church may be having a tough time dealing with childlessness because there is a scripture that says ‘"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth…"--Genesis 1:28. Most theologians take that to mean go and have tons of kids.  And hey, maybe so. But so time back I had a conversation with someone who said that in the case of childlessness, it could also mean for us to be fruitful in our work. Whatever work we are given to do.  Childlessness does not mean we do not have a calling on our lives. It does not mean that we should be forgotten, blamed, or ignored. It simply means that our hopes and dreams did not work out the way we expected and that God does not say yes to every prayer.          Articles, links, and all that good stuff:    There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, 37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four.[a] She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.--Luke 2:36-37.       "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."--Genesis 1:28     https://www.army.mil/article/85225/commentary_christians_have_duty_towards_others   https://www.vanguardngr.com/2020/06/my-battles-against-childlessness-ibidun-ituah-ighodalo/   https://answersingenesis.org/contradictions-in-the-bible/did-michal-have-children-or-not/   https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/05/not-having-kids-is-nothing-new-what-centuries-history-tell-us-about-childlessness-today/ Special thank you to: To the wonderful ladies in the Facebook group. To the wonderful supporters in the Supporters group.  To the wonderful listeners all over the world. To those who have subscribed to the podcast.  To those who have subscribed to the newsletter, thank you for your patience.  To those who give financially on a monthly basis. My contact information:Website: www.childlessnotbychoice.net and www.civillamorgan.comFacebook: booksbycivillamorganTwitter: @civilla1Instagram: @joyandrelevancePinterest: Civilla M. Morgan, MSMLinkedIn: Civilla Morgan, MSMhttps://www.teepublic.com/stores/childless-not-by-choice If you would like to become a one time or ongoing sponsor, or if you would like to advertise your business or an upcoming event, contact me at info@civillamorgan.com for details.    Remember, subscription to the podcast is free. Simply go to Apple Podcast, Stitcher Radio, Spotify, Overcast, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Search for Childless not by Choice, and hit the subscribe button. It’s that easy!    Also, remember, if you would like to be a guest blogger, remember to click the link on the bottom right of the home page of the childlessnotbychoice.net website for instructions.  Well, thank you for listening to this episode of Childless not by Choice! Until next time! Bye!   ‘To recognize and speak to the broken hearts of childless not by choice women, and men, around the world.’   ‘Spreading the great news that we can live a joyful, relevant, and fulfilled life’.

In this episode I meet Rachel Elnaugh, businesswoman, author and one of the original Dragons. We talk about her time running Red Letter Days and what it means to be an evolutionary entrepreneur. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on wellbeing.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Would you prefer to read Rachel's interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Rachel Elnaugh, author, speaker, mentor, former Dragon and the creator of Red Letter Days. She launched the experience day voucher company in 1989 when she was 24 years old. And after a precarious start, a print brochure campaign launched it to success. This led to multiple awards and a place as one of the original Dragons on Dragon’s Den. The company went into administration in 2005 due to over-expansion and the remaining assets were bought by fellow Dragons, Peter Jones and Theo Paphitis. They eventually sold the firm to Buyagift and it’s now owned by French firm, The Smartbox Group.   Taking the lessons of Red Letter Days with her, Elnaugh now mentors business owners and speaks at events in the hope that fellow entrepreneurs can learn from her experiences. Anna: Hi Rachel. Rachel: Hi Anna. Thank you for that intro. Anna: Not at all. How are you doing? Rachel: Yeah good, thank you. Great. The first thing I’d like to ask you about is that you describe yourself as an ‘evolutionary entrepreneur’ – what do you mean by that, exactly? Rachel: Well, I’ve been on my own journey of transformation and particularly being a business mentor, have got really interested in what makes one person successful and one another not. That’s kind of my holy grail – to really understand what makes the difference which has kind of taken me on this journey of discovery through mindset, through energy work and metaphysics and so I do think there’s a new era of consciousness opening. I think I’m moving out of that old capitalist business paradigm into this new era, along with many other people, which is a very different way of doing business. It’s much more intuitive and much more about manifestation and effortless flow. If your focus isn’t capitalism, what is it? Rachel: Well, capitalism is fundamentally about scarcity and really about putting money ahead of all other considerations. As we move into this new era, we’re seeing that businesses that aren’t just about profit but are also very much about people and about the planet are really coming to the fore – those brands that embrace a much wider idea of success than just money. We’re seeing a massive change and we’re also starting to unravel some of the programmes of capitalism like scarcity. For example, with renewable energy, the sun never stops shining, the waves and the wind never stop. There’s so much natural resource to tap into that I think this deep programme of scarcity is being unravelled and uninstalled. Anna: Yeah, you can see in businesses now that a corporate social responsibility is non-negotiable. If the business doesn’t have an ethical basis then at least it’ll be embedded in their business plan. Rachel: Yeah, and I think it goes way beyond the veneer of corporate social responsibility of wrapping a company with that. I think the companies that are really powerfully coming through are ones that have actually got ethics at the heart of them. So, I think there’s a new breed of entrepreneur coming through which goes way beyond social enterprise, it’s people working from the heart, really passionate about their businesses and their brands. And wanting to do business but in a way that is very nourishing.                   Definitely, I agree. I’d like to talk a bit about Red Letter Days as well. You made a loss of £4.7m at the time that you realised something was amiss. According to previous reports, there were various issues: management consultants taking on too many projects, a dud CEO, suppliers going unpaid, your financial director keeping information from you. Rachel: I think that when a business goes wrong, a lot of waves hit the ship at the same time. Up until that point, we’d had a very successful company that was growing every year, that was profitable. In 2002, I started winning awards and getting on television. I think you can get the Midas touch and start to push too far and fast. Suddenly it’s driven by profit motives and ego rather than just wanting to create great products and experiences and services. We brought in some management consultants who recommended that it was time for the business to grow up and to parachute in a new chief executive to take it to the next level – we really thought we could groom the business to float it. It was really that process of over-expansion, as you said in the intro, that was our undoing. It was a very big lesson. I think if I had to share that lesson with other entrepreneurs I would say just grow organically and in a very steady way rather than trying to step change a business and leap to the next level. That was the mistake we made. Anna: So, there’s a surge in confidence – then a real dip in confidence – on your part. Rachel: Well, as I said, a lot of waves hit the ship at the same time, so we parachuted in a chief executive who was brilliant at spending money. He’d actually come in from Thomas Cook and he is the one who created the JMC brand which, literally the day before he joined, was closed down by Thomas Cook. That should have been a warning. I also didn’t have a strong enough finance director and I think that’s really crucial in a business, I realise now. To have a very trusted, rock-solid finance director is key. So we over-expanded, overspent and then crucially, our credit card takings were bonded by our bank. When we were forced into administration, we had £3.3m cash at bank. That was another big lesson in that whoever controls the money has all the power. We had a huge amount of cash at bank but we just couldn’t touch it. And the bank forced us into administration. When that bond was unbound over the next year, all of the vouchers had been redeemed, the actual cost of fulfilling them was only just over £1m. While the bond was appropriate, the level of it was way in excess of what was necessary. And it was that cash flow that strangled the business and forced us into administration. There were a lot of factors involved and it was a very very dark, difficult learning process for me. From your learnings, what kind of advice would you give entrepreneurs about finding the right bank, the right account, the right adviser for them?      Rachel: It was interesting because I remember having a discussion on the set of Dragon’s Den with Duncan Bannatyne, my fellow Dragon. I was telling him the problems at that time I was struggling with trying to get this bond lifted. And he just turned to me and said: ‘Rachel, the first rule of business: do not bank with Barclay’s’. And the thing is, you don’t really understand how much power a bank has over you until you run into problems. And I think some banks are more ruthless than others. It was a big learning curve. But I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming and in victim mode because in truth, we were undercapitalised. And it’s very difficult to re-finance yourself out of a cash flow issue like that. If I could’ve re-run the clock it would’ve been much better for us to have got some proper venture capital funding before embarking on the expansion plan rather than trying to fund it out of cash flow. Tell me about the months after the company went into administration – what was it like for you? Rachel: It was a bit of a double-edged thing because on one side of things, it was quite tragic for me because I’d spent 16 years building this company literally from nothing, it was literally like my baby. I’d poured my whole life into it. All of my passion and all of my money, I’d lost that. On the other side of things, it was so stressful towards the end that when I finally signed the papers and put it into administration – and I really had no choice – it was a massive relief and a release. I’d just had my fourth son the week before so that was a great gift from God, you know. It was August, the sun was shining, I had a newborn baby and also, I’d just been on Dragon’s Den. So, I had this new world opening up to me of being this TV celebrity entrepreneur. And even though I got annihilated by the press, I was given a book deal. I wrote a book called Business Nightmares about the fine line between success and failure. That came out in May 2008 and in September 2008, world economies crashed, and we had the banking crash. And this repositioning of myself as a business survivor was actually perfect timing because it opened up a whole new world of speaking at business events, becoming a mentor and creating lots of products and ways of helping other people on their entrepreneurial journey. It was synchronistic and beautiful even though at the time it felt like the worst possible thing that could ever happen to me. Anna: I read that you found a note that you had written some time before about what you wanted for the future. It said something along the lines of ‘I will sell off Red Letter Days’. Rachel: This was long before I understood the power of words and the law of attraction. A friend of mine was training to be a life coach and she needed guinea pig clients. I said, ‘I don’t need a life coach but I’ll be your guinea pig client’. She got me to write this life plan and I found it after the company had crashed. I had written this several years before, but I found the piece of paper. On it I’d written: ‘By 2006, get rid of Red Letter Days so I can spend more time at home with my children, be creative and write.’ And so the universe had delivered that little cosmic order exactly to plan. You notice I didn’t write on there: ‘Sell Red Letter Days for £20m, be creative and write’, it said ‘get rid of’. And ‘get rid of’ is a very angry energy and so the universe got rid of it for me. We have to be very careful about our spelling, spelling is very powerful. You have to be careful what you ask for because it’s delivered often exactly to the word. What about planning what would happen within your business, including the staff. What was the process there? Rachel: We didn’t want to go into administration and we were working on all sorts of ways to re-finance. I had a re-financing offer from HBOS and I was looking for match equity funding. What happened was one of our suppliers – and sometimes in these situations, suppliers can be their own worst enemy – took a winding up order against the company. Could you briefly describe what a winding up order is for our listeners who don’t know? Rachel: Basically, if a company owes you money and they don’t pay, you can enter into court a winding up order which is if they don’t pay, you’re going to wind up the company and get paid that way. It’s a bit like dropping a nuclear bomb on someone to get what you want. Usually, in normal circumstances, if you get a winding up order from a creditor then you just pay them. But in our situation – it was a long time ago – but there was a legal reason why we couldn’t just pay them because we couldn’t create preferential creditors. When a winding up order has been put in, it basically opens you up to every other creditor. What happened was the creditors started arriving at the company offices to try and take the assets. So the only way we could protect the staff was firstly to lock the doors. We were in London and we had staff in our head office in Muswell Hill on the phone saying, ‘There are people at the doors, what do we do?’ We had to say, ‘You just have to lock the doors.’ We were advised by the lawyers that the only way to protect the company and its assets from these creditors in their vans was to put the company into administration. Through that winding up order we were forced into administration and as a result, no one got paid because I couldn’t complete the re-financing and it was game over. It was a very fine line between success and failure. Had we not had that winding up order, I could potentially have maybe, and it’s always an if, completed on the HBOS deal, the bond would’ve been released because we would have re-financed. Then we could have traded through and floated the company which was the plan because it had growth and it had profitability and it had a great brand. But alas, alack, it was not to be. How long would the re-financing process take? Rachel: All of my time was spent in meetings with bank and financiers, so I had the deal agreed. It was just a case of finding match equity funding. I actually did go to Peter [Jones] and Theo [Paphitis] and said, ‘I’ve got this deal. Could you match-fund it?’ There was potential they could’ve done that, but they felt there was a bigger opportunity to push it through administration, although that proved not to be the case. It is a bit like going nuclear, pushing your company through administration. And certainly with that industry, they couldn’t wipe the deck by putting it through administration because no one would supply the business without getting paid. It was quite messy.                                          The experiences industry is huge now. If you could have started Red Letter Days at any time within the past 30 years, when would you have started it? Rachel: We were the pioneers of the industry. And really, the 1980s were about how much you owned and the 1990s were about what you could experience, so the timing of creating the company was perfect because it captured the zeitgeist of the era. We weren’t the first company that did experiences, but we were the first company to truly embrace the concept of experiential giving. Anna: I suppose – I’m not sure about our listeners – but for me it seems like a pretty recent shift towards less buying of stuff to more buying of experiences, but it’s interesting to find out that back then that it was emerging – it’s always great to get in on that emerging market. Rachel: Yeah, for sure – we were creating that as we went. And a lot of people picked up on it, so we had lots of copycat companies and competitors. Then Virgin Experiences came in on it followed by all the retailers. And now it’s commonplace to see experiences as your prize or gift as opposed to a TV or a tangible piece of technology or kit.           You’ve said that part of the struggle of Red Letter Days initially was getting experience providers on board with something that was novel at the time – what would you say to entrepreneurs running a business based on a fairly new concept? Rachel: In essence, Red Letter Days was a marketing portal. When we launched in 1989, everyone’s books were full, and business was booming. Then the first recession happened in the early 1990s and people’s revenues started dropping. Even though a recession was opening, that was a great opportunity for us because people could see that their sales were dropping, and they wanted more promotion – especially free promotion – which is what we were offering. So I think in every era there’s always opportunity in adversity and I think you just have to tune into the market and be resourceful and just go with the flow and find out where people’s point of pain is and provide a solution to it.      Anna: Well, that’s it from me – is there anything you would like to add? Rachel: No, that’s fine. Hopefully that’s been useful. Anna: Yeah, it has been. Thank you so much. You can find out more about Rachel at rachelelnaugh.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on mental wellbeing and expanding your company. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

In this episode I meet Deborah Meaden, businesswoman, author and Dragon. We talk about her definition of success and what makes a disastrous investment pitch. Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on pitching to investors.  Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Want to read the Deborah Meaden's podcast interview instead? Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. Today we have Deborah Meaden, investor, businesswoman, author and one of the longest-serving Dragons on Dragons’ Den, second only to Peter Jones. She launched her first company at 19 years old, importing glass and ceramics and supplying UK retailers such as Harvey Nichols. She then took on a franchise of Stefanel, an Italian clothing company and sold it two years later. Next came her family’s amusement arcade business, where she went from shop floor worker to operations director before moving to Weststar Holidays. Within two years she became managing director and did a management buyout in 1999. Then in 2005, she sold the business for £33m. After deciding that retirement wasn’t for her, Deborah joined Dragons’ Den in 2006 and has since invested £3,746,000. Anna: Hello, Deborah. Deborah: Good morning. I’m still smarting for being called second best to Peter Jones! Anna: How are you doing today? Deborah: Good! Yeah, very good day – so far. Anna: Yeah, that’s it – you want to touch wood but unfortunately there’s not much wood in here at the moment…  Right, I’ll start off with something quite general. In the past you’ve said that you like success and successful people. How do you define success? Deborah: I can tell when someone is successful because they’re comfortable with themselves. And it’s odd because often when people think of success, they think of these driven people who are constantly reaching for bigger and more and more money and more profit and whatever. But actually, I consider success someone who’s reached that stage in life where they’ve thought, ‘This is great, this is good. It might not be great forever but I’m enjoying what I’m doing now – I’m having a great impact. And the thing that I’ve set out to achieve I’m achieving and I’m achieving well.’ That is my idea of success. You can tell when you’re around successful people – they enjoy it, they’re comfortable with themselves. Anna: So, it’s not necessarily financial. Deborah: It’s easy to say it’s not financial. Of course, in the early days when I didn’t have money, it was financial. But when you reach a level you can start thinking that money isn’t the be all and end all. The thing I always say about money is that it’s kind of the measure of business, or it has been in the past. It’s, ‘If I’m good at business, I make great profits.’ I think that’s changing and that suits me better. It’s more a case of, ‘What do I want my output to be?’ Of course, I’ve got to make money, otherwise I wouldn’t have a business. But do I want to have a social impact as well? Do I want to feel good about what I do? I’m much more comfortable in that space. Anna: Yeah, we’re seeing businesses move towards having more of an ethical basis in their business models, supporting animals, doing charity contributions on the side. Deborah: Yes, and I think it doesn’t have to be through charity, just behaving well. If you believe in something, it should be reflected through your business and treating your people well, being respectful of them. Making an impact in your community. Sometimes I feel the charity side can be absolving yourself of responsibility: ‘Let’s just give them the money and they can do the work for me!’ I feel there’s a bigger responsibility – we should all behave well in our business lives.            And no matter how successful you are as an entrepreneur, everyone has their own set of strengths and weaknesses. You said that when you were at Weststar, you lost some good people because you didn’t temper your approach to nurture them. Have you adapted to different personalities in the workplace since, and if so, how did you got about it?    Deborah: That is very very true. I’m very robust. And anybody who’s watched Dragons’ Den will know that I’m very robust. But what I mean when I’m robust is that I throw things out there and I’m hoping that people are going to challenge me. I’m not just saying it because I want everyone to go, ‘Oh yes, I agree with you.’ I put things out there and I want a lively, energetic conversation around the stuff. But I did realise early on that that doesn’t suit everybody. Sometimes I’d say things and they’d think, ‘Ohhhh, alright! Okay!’ They don’t debate it, they don’t discuss it with me. I think that’s part of experience: take yourself off transmit and receive as well as transmit. Anna: How did you put that into practice? Deborah: It’s a bit odd because, of course, life is about communication. I just realised I had a great group of friends that I communicate and debate with and I listen to and I think, ‘Why am I behaving differently at work?’ People are people – just because they happen to be in the work environment. Why don’t I just the use the skills I use when I’m outside of work? When you first meet people you sense them, you feel them out. Are they shy, are they very robust, are they gregarious? What are they? And you temper yourself to them. I just remembered to do that in the workplace and of course, the response was amazing. It just meant that people with a different style could find their style with me. We found a way of working together as opposed to [them] thinking, ‘I need to just shrivel up and leave the room because she’s said something that she obviously wants to happen!’ One of your greater strengths as an entrepreneur is your frankness. And we’re surrounded by so many options these days and plagued by indecision. How do you make good decisions as a business owner? Deborah: Well, the first thing is learning to make decisions, good or bad. It’s better to make a bad decision than it is to make no decision. In making no decision, you destabilise everything and everybody gets into this awful limbo land and thinks, ‘Ohhhhh, I really don’t know what’s going on’ and they lose the ability to make decisions. So learning to consider, know what you need to know, and the moment to say: ‘Right – I’ve heard enough, now I need to make a decision.’ I have watched people get trapped in this, ‘Oh, well I’ll just ask’ and ‘Maybe if we ask this’ and sometimes we get to a stage where we’re doing research and I’ll say ‘Okay, we need to stop the research now, because I think we know enough’. Otherwise, we shouldn’t be doing our job. The researchers aren’t going to tell us what we should do. They’re going to give us the information to help us make our decisions. We need to make those decisions. And coming back to different personality types, how would somebody who is perhaps less confident, less decisive – how do they make the most of their qualities as a business leader? Deborah: It’s interesting that you say ‘business leader’ because I was reading a really interesting book on leadership. It was saying that people need different leaders in different environments and at different times. If you think about the history of the country, we needed different people at different times and businesses are the same. Leaders are given permission to lead. It’s not like, ‘I’m a fantastic leader – I can walk into any environment and anybody will follow me.’ Because actually, if you don’t do a good job, I promise you that your permission to lead will be taken away very very quickly. People will just start finding ways around you. They’ll think, ‘You know what? They don’t know what they’re doing so I’ll carry on with my thing.’ So I actually think that knowledge and experience and proving that you’re good eventually attracts people around you. [They] work out really quickly, ‘Who is it that makes my life better because I can do my job better? I know they’re going to help me do my job better.’ Be good at what you do, be really helpful to other people. Recognise that you are all in this together because the more helpful you are, the more people look to you. We all think of leaders as these big strident people who are born leaders but actually in the wrong environment – and the wrong time – people will just say, ‘Oh, shush’. Anna: But sometimes people just need to be given the chance to come out and make those decisions. Deborah: Absolutely, and to get the feedback on those decisions. A lot of it is a lack of confidence. I’ve seen so many people sit in a room – and this has happened a lot since I’ve been on Dragons’ Den – suddenly, it’s like I’m the expert on everything. I’ve been on television, so I know everything. I’ve got confident, competent people who know way more about their subject than me, who will not stick their stake in the ground because they think, ‘Deborah’s in the room – she must know more than anybody.’ I’m like, ‘Guys, if I think I know everything, what am I doing sitting in a room talking to you lot?! I’ll just carry on, thank you. You know way more than me so could you just carry on making the decisions you made before the day I was on Dragons’ Den? It’s much more difficult now to get people to challenge me – and I love challenge. What’s the point of sitting in a room with people who are just agreeing with me? Anna: I feel like I should disagree with you right now, but I actually do agree!                   One of the companies you have invested in, ran into difficulty last year [the founder is no longer part of the company]. How do you know when it’s time to walk away from a business? Deborah: In the case of Gripit, it’s what to do. It’s come through and it’s selling to the US market. It’s when to stop or it’s when to say, in the case of Gripit, actually we’ve got a fantastic product here – no one ever questioned the product. So, what we’re going to do now is present it in a different way and have a completely different structure sitting behind it. I’ve got a feeling that if I wasn’t there, it probably would’ve gone. It was definitely in a very difficult moment in time. But I was able to see through that, underpinned by a product. What I do see sometimes is a product that is clearly failing. When you’ve got to wander around, holding up the product going, ‘Buy me, please please buy me’, that worries me much much more. If you’ve got a good product but the structure in which you’re selling it isn’t quite right, that’s a problem you can get through. If you’ve got a bad product and you’re having to work too hard to get out there, that’s the time to call it a day. You’ve got to understand why you’re at that difficult moment. Every single business I’ve ever been in has had a difficult moment and if you can’t work out what’s causing it – and see a way through it – that’s the time to stop. But if you can work out what’s caused it and think, ‘Oh, I can fix that’ then clearly, you need to carry on.      Anna: Coming back to Dragons’ Den, I’ve read that when you do a day of shooting you record six pitches. Most are about an hour long, but some are as short as 15 minutes while others are two hours long. What are the common themes run among the not-so-good pitches, the ones that tend to end after 15 minutes? Deborah: I’m not sure there’s a common theme. Sometimes it’s purely and simply: ‘That isn’t going to work’. It’s just, all five of us – and we’re all very different – but you’ve got a lot of experience sitting there, in a lot of sectors. And we’re not always right. Fantastic businesses go out there and prove us wrong, that’s brilliant, that’s fine. But sometimes you just think, ‘You have not thought that out’ and you fall at the first hurdle because what’s your market? How are you going to make it? What does it cost to make?        Anna: So, people come in with no idea… Deborah: Well, they come in with an idea sometimes and that is the problem: there’s a mile of difference between an idea and a business proposition. You’ve got to have something that I’m investing in – not just a thought. That’s one of the big issues.    Anna: Although that is to say that they’re quick because they’re weaker pitches than the ones that are longer and you want to know more. Deborah: Oh, absolutely. I think the shortest pitch I’ve ever seen is 11 minutes and it was a product where everybody was clearly just wrong on all counts. It was badly thought out, it was badly presented, there was no idea what the market was going to be, didn’t know what the cost of making it was going to be, didn’t know what the cost of selling it was going to be… that’s a quick pitch! There’s nothing to invest in here. I think the longest pitch I’ve ever been on was three hours. And to be honest, by that point you’re interested. We don’t sit there for three hours and don’t invest – we’re trying to unpick a business. Anna: Wow. What do you discuss in a three-hour pitch? Deborah: We’re trying to get to the stage where an investment is going to proceed because once we get out of the Den, not all of the businesses pass due diligence. I don’t want to waste my time or their time – life’s too short to agree something and then find afterwards, ‘Damn, if I’d known that I wouldn’t’ve made an offer’. So if you’re interested, it takes longer because we’re trying to eke out all of the things so it shortens the process. In my experience, when you come out of the Den, the longer it takes for that deal to get away, the less likely the deal is going to be. And I don’t want to walk out the Den and find out that actually, they haven’t got a patent, they’ve made a patent application. Or their numbers are wrong by a factor of 100. Or – this happens a lot – they have loans that were not disclosed in the Den. And I specifically ask now – people sometimes don’t count a Director’s Loan as a loan. Well, of course it’s a loan! It’s still a loan. So often we’ll come out and then find out that something wasn’t disclosed that should’ve been disclosed. Because in good faith, we’re both trying to find out about each other. And there’s no point me agreeing a deal in the Den and then walking out and thinking, ‘Ohhh, if only I’d known that, I’d have never…’ Anna: And you’re hoping to build a long-term business relationship so keeping stuff from each other at that point is never a good sign. Deborah: Actually, the deal just won’t proceed. We are agreeing to invest but between that and the investment is normal due diligence that you would do on any business. I might as well know in the Den what’s going on and if you haven’t told me something material, the trust is gone and I need to trust people. Anna: What’s the worst pitch you’ve seen in the Den? Deborah: Oh, it’s hard to tell. False fingernails for cats was a funny one. There was a fantastic – it was a guy who came up with an invention of a fold-out sunbed in a suitcase which you can take on holiday with you and take your suitcase down to the beach and then unfold it – because obviously people use all the beach chairs. You think, ‘You don’t seriously believe I’m going to carry a huge big suitcase on holiday with me.’ Anna: People only have so much checked-in baggage, you know? Deborah: At least he was thinking! Anna: Yeah, he can make one for himself. How about pitches that you turned down at the time but turned out to be quite successful after the show. Were there any of those that you thought, ‘Oh, I wish I got involved in that’? Deborah: I’m not an ‘I wish I had’ kind of person. I put everything into achieving the thing that I’m trying to achieve and if I don’t, I don’t. There will always be other opportunities. And I’m not just saying this: that’s the best kind of mistake to make. If you don’t invest in somebody and they go on and make a huge success, it’d be a bit churlish not to think, ‘Well good on you’. Anna: That’s a very mature approach to take. Deborah: We started off by saying I like success. I get no pleasure from seeing people fail. Even if a fleeting ‘I told you so’ crosses my mind, it’s very fleeting. Anna: I know for some people it must be quite difficult. Deborah: I’m actually quite hard to interview because people ask me, ‘What are you most proud of?’ and I honestly don’t know. I don’t really look back, I don’t worry, I don’t carry stuff around with me. Bad stuff has happened and at the time it was awful and two days later it’s gone. I’ve always looked forward. I’ve always been more interested in what’s coming up than what’s going on behind.                             Anna: And in the spirit of moving forward, we have a Budget coming up. What support would you like to see to support small business owners? Deborah: I would definitely like to see the EIS and SEIS schemes maintained, just in case there’s any consideration that they go. Because if ever there was a time for people to get their investment out of the bank and working with small businesses, that’s what we should be doing. We should be supporting them. What else would I like to see for small business? I think this is a very very difficult Budget because we still don’t know about the Brexit scenario and we have no idea on the basis on which that’s going to be very difficult to say what you want for a business when you don’t know what the landscape is. You asking me this question in a normal landscape, I’d say, ‘You can do A and B and C and help’ but I have no idea what we’re aiming at anymore. So I really don’t know which levers to pull. That feels really awkward for somebody who spends their life making decisions and working out what is the best thing to do now. Anna: Yeah – business owners are planning three, five, ten years in advance. They’ve just been at a point where they can’t. Deborah: Listen, we’re in a really funny time at the moment. We don’t know the landscape and we can only control what we can control. But I really do worry that there are some businesses that are really not looking at the potential pitfalls and preparing themselves for it. I’ve spoken to a lot of businesses who at first thought, ‘Well, of course Brexit won’t affect me’. That’s because they weren’t doing business in the EU, but they’re not really looking back through their supply chains, not understanding what could happen to the data within their business. There’s no agreement on data transfer. So, I think businesses should just look into themselves for a moment and think, ‘Actually, which bits of these could be affected in terms of a future trade deal?’ There’ll be a lot of stuff that’s left undone and you need to know your risk. With a lot of my businesses I’ve had to set up offices in Ireland, almost as an insurance to say ‘just in case we can’t directly trade with the EU without pretty hefty tariffs. I need to find a way of trading’. There are things you can do to mitigate on a best guess scenario – you’ve got to understand what’s at risk in your business.   Anna: That seems like a good place to wrap up. Thank you for coming on the podcast, Deborah. Deborah: Thank you for inviting me. I enjoyed it. Anna: You can learn more about Deborah at deborahmeaden.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more insight on preparing for Brexit planning and how to pitch to investors. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.   

Big data sounds great, but how can marketers extract insights and put together reports without spending all of their time crunching numbers? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, Anna Shutko of Supermetrics talks about how marketers today are dealing with data. From juggling data from 5+ sources, to wrangling spreadsheets and figuring out how to continuously monitor your data pipeline, Anna shares how Supermetrics clients are taking on these challenges while saving themselves considerable time - and how you can, too. Highlights from my conversation with Anna include: Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool that transfers data from a variety of sources to the marketer's destination of choice. In addition, Supermetrics offers data warehousing through Supermetrics for BigQuery. Supermetrics' goal is to make marketers' lives better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters. Anna says that marketers today need to be technologists who know their business, know their platforms, know at which stage of the funnel they want to use the platforms, and know how to use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from their data. According to Anna, the best KPI for any marketer is revenue. If revenue is growing, then marketing is doing its job. One of Supermetrics' customers was able to cut the time they spend on reporting down from three to four days a week to a few hours. With a platform like Supermetrics, which allows you to continuously keep your data updated in real time, you can simply check the data once a day, knowing that its up to date, and then go about your business. You can also simply provide your stakeholders (ex. board) with a link to view your data at their convenience. Anna says that the biggest mistake marketers make is to focus on vanity metrics like impressions. Resources from this episode: Marketing Technology Landscape Supergraphic  Supermetrics Reporting Template Gallery  Supermetrics Customer Success Stories Sleeping Giant Media Success Story Supermetrics HubSpot connector Supermetrics for BigQuery  Inbound Success Podcast episode 111 with Jake Neill  This Won't Scale playbook by Drift SaaStr Podcast for all things SaaS The Growth Hub Podcast for marketing topics Julian Shapiro's guides Listen to the podcast to learn more about how marketers are cutting their time spent on reporting using Supermetrics. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth. And Today my guest is Anna Shutko, who is a product marketing manager with Supermetrics. Welcome, Anna. Anna: Hey, Kathleen, and thank you so much for having me on the show. It's such a pleasure to be here. Kathleen: Yeah. And I think you might actually qualify as my guest, one of the guests who is coming from the furthest away because you are in Finland right now. Correct? Anna: Correct. Yes, we are based in Helsinki, Finland. And yeah, so originally from Russia, and I moved to Finland and I've been living here for about seven years now. Kathleen: All right, and how -- just because the weather is changing here, so I'm currently kind of obsessed with weather -- how cold is it where you are? Anna: Basically, it's plus seven degrees Celsius. I'm sorry, I don't know what it's like in Fahrenheit. Kathleen: Cold, cold. I know that's cold. Anna: Kind of cold yeah. It usually drops to minus 20. So it's- Kathleen: Oh my gosh. I don't know how you do it, I would not survive in that climate. Well, it is getting colder here and the seasons are changing. But I'm so excited to have you on and to pick your brain because we're going to talk a little bit about analytics, which is something that's very near and dear to my heart. But it's one of those topics I think people talk a lot about, but they don't get very specific on and so I am actually really excited to get specific with you. Anna: Yes please. About Anna and Supermetrics Kathleen: So before we dive into this, though, can you just talk a little bit about, first of all, yourself and what you do and also what Supermetrics does? Anna: Yeah, sure. So I'm Anna Shutko and I've been working in Supermetrics for three years now. So I am one of the first employees of the company, I joined as employee number seven in 2016. And since then we've had a really, really rapid growth. So it's indeed an exciting journey. And I'm still continuing as you can imagine, the company is not the same as it was, not the same at all. Now we're hitting 70 like headcount. So it's been quite a wild ride. And I started as a marketing generalist, because as you can imagine, we're a team of seven, and everybody was doing everything, I was the second employee on the marketing team. And as the company grew I realized that product that's Supermetrics does is my passion and I want to devote more and more time to it. Now as we are hiring more people, I'm actually able to concentrate in product more and more as we go so I'm very excited about it. And in the future, I will be leading integrations marketing, which means, and I will explain everything how Supermetrics works and what integrations are in a minute, like integrations as their own stream as their own branch of marketing, so to say, so yeah, pretty excited about it. And like I mentioned, I fell in love with the product from day one. I remember how I was applying to Supermetrics, and I opened the website, and I saw this amazing product in the website was look really, really bad, but the idea was there. And yeah, since then, we changed the website and we added many more new and far more amazing products but I'm continuously in love with the company and products that we do so this is where my passion as a product marketing comes from. Kathleen: I have to just say, as a marketer, I have to laugh when I hear you say that you came in and you had a bad website because this -- I have experienced that in my career. And I never know whether to be excited or sad, because sad that you're coming in and the website stinks but excited that you get to come in and like change it and immediately show such big results of your marketing efforts. Like a website redesign is an awesome opportunity to just make a huge impact on a company's marketing so there's great opportunity there as a marketer, but it's also like "aargh." Anna: Yeah, I totally feel you on that we had a huge redesign project, but actually now the website really matches the company's identity of the company's products and shows how amazing they are. So I would prefer to see it as an opportunity. Kathleen: Yeah, you guys have a great website. So if you're listening and you have not checked out the Supermetrics site, definitely take a look at it. It's really well done and very cohesive from a visual branding standpoint. I've always liked your site. Anna: Thank you so much. Yeah, so a couple of words on what is Supermetrics and what do we actually do in this little red box. So, Supermetrics is a marketing automation tool and we started by developing a tool, which transfers data from different data sources, or as we call them "Integrations", those things, which transfer data from different APIs to different data destinations. So we transfer data from platforms like Google Ads, Google Analytics, Facebook ads, Twitter Ads, and now new ones for example Quora Ads, name it to spreadsheet tools and we started from transferring all this data to Excel then we move into G Suite. So next product was Supermetrics for Google Sheets aka transferring data from now it's 50 plus sources to Google Sheets. Then as Data Studio got rolled out, we partnered up with Google and we're actually the first ones to develop Connectors, which work entirely in Google Data Studios UI. So transferring all these different data to Google Data Studio. And now we enter the data warehousing space with our newest product Supermetrics for BigQuery and this is a completely new product game changer. So marketers can take advantage of BigQuery and store a lot of historical data there without necessarily learning how to code, really like hardcore, so everything is pretty intuitive. You can set transfers, and then visualize the data in big powerhouses that we're calling Tableau, Power BI for example. So that's the evolution of Supermetrics. In short, I love to describe it as a data pipeline, just easy to imagine, right, pipeline, we transfer data as if it's like water, for example, to all those different data destinations, and keep the work flowing. So previously, without Supermetrics marketers had to copy, paste, or download CSVs. So imagine, if you need a report for your client tomorrow, you have to go to every single platform like Facebook ads, Google Ads like I mentioned, ecetera, copy, paste, or then download all those different CSVs and compile them into one file. Edit every single data type and make sense out of the data and it was nightmare. I cannot even imagine how people did it without Supermetrics before. So we basically automate the whole thing so there is a really smooth sidebar or engage Google Data Studio there is this selection tool where you can very easily connect to all the sources you need. And you can select, which data do I want. For example, I want clicks from yesterday's clicked by campaigning for example, I want Facebook ads campaigns. And boom, this data just appears in your spreadsheet. It's really easy. I think it's the easiest if you watch the video, and I will add all the links to the video. So then people can pause the podcast, follow along or check our site out if they want to. So yeah, you will just really see how easy it is to create a marketing report and our motto, so our idea is to make marketers' life better and easier so they can focus on what actually matters like talking to the client, analyzing this data, spotting trends, sharing this report with their colleagues. If it's a collaborative tool, like Data Studio, it's super easy to do. And because we're a data pipeline, it gives us this flexibility. So we don't really have a fixed data destination where we transfer everything. People already know how to use Excel, so they can just transfer their data there and just go ahead and continue their work. So that's who we are. How marketers are taking on big data Kathleen: I love that. This whole topic is so interesting to me, and I was just having this conversation with somebody the other day, because my company is also in the data space, but we just happened to be in cyber security but there's a similar problem with marketing and with cyber security, namely that, there's all this sort of excitement around the availability of big data. And data is wonderful but what winds up happening I think, a lot of the time is there's a lot of noise and not a lot of signal. And meaning there's a ton of data, but you don't necessarily need to look at all data, right? You need to get to the data that matters the most. And the most important thing isn't the data itself it's the insights you source from it. And so, I would love to just kind of get your thoughts on especially for marketers. Do you see marketers successfully dealing with that challenge right now and how do they do that? It is such a big, hairy kind of area of I could be measuring all the things and tracking all the things. I guess this is like 10 questions in one I want to ask you so many things, like what are the most important metrics? How are marketers winnowing it down to what matters the most? Like, you guys work with a lot of companies, how many exactly is it? Anna: So yeah, indeed we do and I think I already previously mentioned to you, so it's 400k, 400,000 people who've tried or are using Supermetrics across all the different products, so huge numbers. Kathleen: That's interesting, it must give you some pretty fascinating insight into what information marketers are tracking and what they're looking at and what sources they're drawing data from. So let's start out actually by a lot of the people who are listening to this podcast, a lot of them tend to be practicing marketers and they're senior enough that they deal with strategy, but they're also kind of deep in the weeds with some tactical execution. And if somebody is listening and thinking I need to set up a reporting framework and I need to decide what are the most important KPIs to track? Can you share a little bit of, through what you see in the platform, like, what are those top KPIs that you tend to see marketers looking at? Anna: Yeah, so of course every single marketing reporting framework is unique and it depends on the company, there is no right or wrong, there is no one framework or one approach I could share and then everybody would apply it and then I would be in a very happy place. I wish that would be possible. But it's an art, it's science and everybody has to use their own judgment. Of course, I can pinpoint some things for example, nowadays you're completely right -- marketing is becoming more and more and more data driven. And marketing is actually becoming more and more technical. So there was this one chart I love referring to which is called the MarTech 5000. Not sure if you've heard of it. And it just shows on a larger scale, how the MarTech space has transformed over the years. So in 2011, there were something about, if I remember correctly, 150 solutions. And right now there are over 7,000 solutions. So imagine all those platforms and every single marketer is using maybe in their own platform, or some unique custom setups in the same HubSpot or Salesforce in the same platform everybody's using. So like I mentioned, is becoming more data driven, it's becoming more unique and is becoming increasingly complex. And what I see is that the profession is changing so we're not just more curious anymore, we have to be marketing technologists to successfully implement all those strategies. So knowing the platform and knowing at which stages of your funnel, you should use a particular platform, maybe it's a new platform, like Quora Ads for example. And it's an entirely new set of metrics because the nature of platform is different. You also have to take that into consideration. So basically to sum it up, knowing your business, knowing the platform, knowing at which stage of the funnel you want to use this platform, and knowing -- and this is where Supermetrics comes into play very nicely -- how we can use data from all those platforms together to create a comprehensive narrative from your data. Say you want to use, for example, Search Ads as top of the funnel, this is what we see commonly happening, people using Search Ads, maybe display ads to attract attention so they will be metrics like impressions, to impact your further questions like impressions clicks, in a way micro conversions or conversions as in their positioning to the website or going into down the funnel. Then in the bottom of the funnel, people are already more familiar with the company. So there can be many different other platforms coming into play that continue handling data so they can go on the website track. So then there is Google Analytics. They continue with another platform. Quora Ads again is a very good example because there you can have different targeting levels and you can target different questions now that people have already got their food for thought about your company. And in the end, you can, again, hammer them with more maybe brand-related content now that they're already familiar with your brand and then lead them gradually to closure. And again, this is where understanding of the product comes in handy. I will give our own Supermetrics example. So we have Supermetrics templates, basically, those are free to use files, which people can use and they work with our Connectors. So it works like this, you get this file, you click three buttons, and it all happens in Data Studio UI or, for example, Google Sheets UI and this is gets populated with your data as you use Supermetrics Connectors. But the trick is that you have to use Supermetrics Connectors to automate this dashboard. Of course, you can put your own numbers and the formulas would work, there is no problem with that you can also use it manually. But the beauty of those templates is to use them in an automated manner. So by knowing that those templates, activate trials, again, if we talking about SaaS, you know that in the bottom of your funnel, you can put this specific lead magnet, like in our case, this is the Landscape, there can be some our tool and then usually tracking through Custom Code or through Google Analytics, how those things convert and then afterwards I think that at this point, people start using more and more complicated platforms to track this post-purchase journey to accurately predict what kind of people convert? How do those people behave? And are there any like rookie purchases? So this is, again, where HubSpot comes in very handy. The platform has expanded a lot. Or Salesforce, then you can connect this data from Salesforce to top of the funnel, or middle of the funnel content data and then see how people who click on your ads and search literally through the whole journey have converted and what kind of people are there and based on that data, then you craft an improved marketing journey. Now that was a really long explanation but yeah, just hope to get the general idea out there so that you should know the business you're in. You should know the tool, you should know how to use those tools together, how to use this data together. And yeah, just focus on metrics like ROI that's my personal belief because marketing cannot function separately or completely separately from overall business, it has to bring results, it has to bring insights. So I think revenue is a very solid indicator of whether something working or not working, and in our case, this will be ROIs. Marketing tool sprawl Kathleen: Yeah, that makes sense and you touched upon something I wanted to ask further about, which is you have to know your platforms and I think you said you need to be a technologist these days, which I think is really so accurate. There are so many different platforms and you can't just be a strategist anymore you have to know how to get in and make these software tools sing for you, because that's where a lot of the value gets unlocked. Do you have a sense? Well, let me back up how many different data sources or platforms does Supermetrics integrate with right now? Anna: It depends on the data destination. So for example, for BigQuery, it's far more complex to add a data source, so we have less of them there. But I would say that more than 50 if we don't count those in detail, or like early access, fully integrated, fully developed platforms, there are around 50 and I have to say that our engineers did a great job because not only do we provide the basic of I call them the basic metrics for some platforms like HubSpot, for example, or Adobe analytics, we also provide the Custom metrics. So if people have created their own metrics, they are also able to fish them out with our tool and like visualize them. Kathleen: So there's about 50 different fully integrated platforms and plenty more kind of in development. Do you have any sense from the way that you all have seen customers using Supermetrics of, on average, how many different sources the typical marketer is pulling in? I'm just curious. Anna: Yeah, of course, I will give you a very, very rough number because there is no generalization to be made. Some people prefer to use one platform very heavily others prefer to use a bundle. But I would say that around maybe like five would be something like an accurate number. Kathleen: Yeah, it's so interesting, because just from my own experience even in small organizations, like, my company is small and in early stage, hopefully will be very big in a year. But, we still, I feel like we have a lot of different platforms. We have marketing automation, we have our website, we have Google Analytics, we have our CRM, like our video marketing platform, our SEO add-ons, there's just so much and pulling it all together is a little bit of a nightmare. And I imagine without a tool like this is super time consuming, and I think that that's probably one of the biggest pain points marketers have, is the amount of time they spend on reporting. Like you said, you work with a lot of different companies I know you and I talked and you have some examples of companies that have used the platform and some stories about how it's helped them save time. Can you maybe share some of that with us? Supermetrics customer stories Anna: Yeah, definitely, and I love sharing those stories because the clients are amazing and some of them have been with us through like absolutely everything. So they started using Grabber, which is now our legacy product so the tool pulls data into Excel. And now they want to try or are already trying Supermetrics for BigQuery you can imagine some of them have used all five of our products, so definitely an evolution there. But coming back to your question one of my favorite client success stories is Sleeping Giant Media. These guys- Kathleen: It's a great name, side note, I just like the company name. Anna: Yeah, they're great and the people they're amazing. So the team is based in Britain, and they've been using Supermetrics like I mentioned for a while. They started with Supermetrics for Google Sheets and now they're looking into Supermetrics for BigQuery. So Sam, big shout out to Sam is our one big Supermetrics fan and he even talked about us at Brighton SEO, which was just amazing we never asked him to but he just went out there and spoke about us. It was really heartwarming. So he told a story that they used to spend around three to four days just on marketing reporting, aka copy, pasting numbers, collecting- Kathleen: Three to four days a month, right? Anna: Three to four days a week. Kathleen: Ah, oh my goodness. Anna: Imagine well, I guess they were not doing it exactly like every week, but maybe like every other week let's say. They are a fully functioning marketing agency providing a wide range of services. So he would get in Monday morning and start collecting data and then they're emailing all the cc's. By Wednesday evening, he would finish all reporting for one maybe two clients, depending on the scope of the project, of course. And then he had Thursday and Friday. So Thursday the client meeting to discuss how campaigns are going, whether there is some adjustments have to be made, et cetera, et cetera. And then it would just leave basically Friday and well, if he's not doing reporting next week, then the next week to implement all the changes. Which to me sounds crazy, because this is something you should not be spending that much time on. This is not a very highly intellectual job like copy, pasting numbers feels so basic -  people doing this and he's started using Supermetrics so he's time basically time he spent on reporting cut down to something like an hour or maybe like an hour and a half and if he needed to do a reporting for absolutely all the clients in the agency that would be in one day. Kathleen: So what does he do with all his newfound free time? Anna: Great question. So he's already talking, well, obviously you started sharing those results with the clients. So he started talking to the clients more and this I think even further reinforces the idea that we help inbound marketers because then we encourage with this free time you can have more human connection. You can ask more relevant questions, you have more time to even think or like process the client's needs. And, in addition to this, he was able to make more relevant analysis now that he had more time. So he could actually process the numbers in his head and think, "Aha, what would our next steps be?" And then react accordingly? So we usually have two types of reports people are doing with Supermetrics. So one type of reporting is this for example, monthly reports where people pull together numbers from all those different sources to assess their monthly progress to see what kind of plans do they have to make for the next month, and then so on and so forth. And the second type of reporting that we commonly see is the ad hoc reporting. So say, okay, this campaign, this bid is acting wild I did not know what happened. Some numbers are going down they're not normal compared to the benchmark or this is someone unusual behavior. Let me just quickly pull out a few numbers and compare them and figure out what's the root cause? Is it something seasonal or is some competitor in the picture, like to understand what's happening. And I really loved one comment, this is from a different client the agency is also based in the UK, they said that it's much, much faster and much easier to pull those numbers with Supermetrics rather than going through the whole Facebook ads UI trying to dig into campaigns and figure out what exactly went wrong. So there you go. So you can also do this ad hoc kind of very quick analysis to see whether some immediate action has to take it and I think this makes you very, very proactive versus being a reactive reporter. You look at the numbers, it's like, "Oh, my God." The moment is gone, things have already happened. But this way, you can very quickly act upon those changes and as a result make your clients happy and avoid some potential setbacks. If you for example, have Black Friday and say something's going wrong then you don't have much time to react. You're losing money basically. So yeah, it really is- Kathleen: Do you have any sense for how often, because Supermetrics really gives a continuous flow of data, correct? Anna: Yeah. How often are marketers reviewing data? Kathleen: And so you could theoretically be checking it all the time. But do you have a sense for how often at least in best practice cases, marketers are looking at that data? Anna: Yeah, so they can set triggers that would refresh data automatically. So I would say that people do so that they set up a reporting dashboard, then they set it up to refresh, so that the data is there for the next day, usually. Of course, they can do like hourly refresh again, if it's a fast pacing, budget campaign, but usually they you do this, I come in to the office, I see fresh data in my dashboard. So every morning, we can do a quick catch up with my colleagues, look at this internal report and see how all of our different clients are doing. If it's an agency, if it's an internal team, then just see how campaigns are performing and then see what we're doing during the day. So that's the usual, I would say, very typical scenario, or according to my experience. Kathleen: And then it seems like, for reporting, like if you're somebody like me, who has to put together a report once a month for your board of directors, you could just really kind of screenshot and paste the graphs into a PowerPoint or something along those lines if you wanted to, or you could distill the data in some other way for like a monthly report. Anna: Yeah, definitely, you can do this. What I would do personally, if I was the one doing this, I would use Google Data Studio because this way you don't have to copy paste anything and you can share this file with really nice dashboards they've updated their design and they're rolling out as far as I know, more comprehensive and even better looking design soon. So you can just connect all the sources put all the numbers and like I mentioned also provide those templates so you can get some inspiration from there. Our designers also do a very nice job creating those lovely designs. For example, we have some Supermetrics for HubSpot templates there in our gallery and I will also give the link to all the materials and the gallery so people can check them out or if they listen to the episodes and try everything themselves. Check out the Supermetrics reporting template gallery But yeah, I would do something like this. And then at the same time, you would not need to refresh the data because the data will be refreshed automatically there. And the board of directors can see new numbers and in addition, you can also connect your custom data source, aka if you have revenue numbers in a database, many companies do have those. So especially if it's a board of directors, they would be very interested in the impact marketing has made on their revenue and other business metrics. So you can pull this data from the database and you can show it side by side with the marketing spend, for example, to give them an even bigger picture. The biggest mistakes marketers are making with data Kathleen: That's great. So any thoughts on, you know, what you see the marketers doing as far as the biggest mistakes they're making with tracking data reporting on it, et cetera? Anna: That's an interesting one. I actually have never thought about this. Mistakes. Well, maybe one thing that comes to my mind is maybe like focusing too much on the vanity metrics as I call them, aka like a lot of clicks or like impressions or worse like it's a impressions. Metrics that give you ... I would say these are maybe like unrelated metrics in a way that they're not very directly related to the business metrics, because for example, in some cases, sales cycle can be quite long. So you cannot accurately assess how much the campaign will generate in the future just simply because people have to go through multiple steps and multiple touch points to even get to the discussion about purchasing your product or tool or license. And so yeah, focusing too much on impressions, focusing too much on metrics then, like I said, not maybe necessarily related. This comes back to the product. You should know your sales cycle and I would suggest breaking it down into different steps and basically monitoring and benchmarking each step and see the conversion rates. I don't exactly remember, a gentleman did an episode with you and he suggested a very good framework for this. There was even Excel spreadsheet. So this is maybe something we could also pulling back to this episode in the comments. Kathleen: I'll have to figure out which one that was. Anna: Yeah, unfortunately, I don't remember. Kathleen: We'll figure it out. Anna: We'll figure it out. Check out the episode Anna references here Kathleen: I know we can do it and we'll put the link in the show notes. Yeah, I know that I've had so many great guests it's interesting who've contributed so many great ideas that oftentimes I was thinking and in fact as I listened to you talk, that I need to go back and listen to some of my earlier episodes, because now I'm on I think I just published Episode Number 117 when we're talking about this, and there's so many earlier ones that are still great in terms of the information they deliver. Who is Supermetrics right for? Kathleen: I imagine that this type of reporting isn't right for everybody because some marketers might have much simpler platforms or maybe not. Maybe it is for everyone can you talk through who do you generally see using a solution like this? Anna: So our most common user personas, so to say, are marketing agencies, so somebody who is doing marketing reporting consecutively and then they have to do it almost every day or at least monthly to put together those good looking reports for their clients. But of course, those marketing agencies can be of different size. There can be a five person as we are now seeing with required there can be a five person very tech savvy small team, which focus on marketing technology and purely some maybe hardcore analytics with the elements of normal distribution and some predictive analytics even or they can be a very big marketing agency like TBWA who want to work client success stories. So yeah, agencies are very typical for us. Then we have internal teams so basically marketing departments, which want to monitor their own campaign, how they're progressing. Then even if they don't have a client, like you just mentioned, reporting to their board of directors and showing what impact marketing has made on their sales et cetera. And also, we've added HubSpot Connector, which is not only marketing, but it's also CRM. So then they connect their marketing data together with the CRM data to give more background information and make a 360 degree analysis. So these are very, very diverse I have to say. Kathleen: Great. So really it sounds like anybody, regardless of size, who has a strong focus on data, tracking data, analyzing data and reporting on data? Anna: Yeah, I would say so. Well maybe there is some categorization, I would say that smaller teams tend to use Google Sheets and Excel aka Spreadsheet tools. If the team is very tech savvy, or they have a lot of historical data, then I would straightaway advise them to use Google BigQuery because they would immediately otherwise hit that cell limit and the reports will be bulky, the reports will be slow. This is just not the right data destination, if you want to store terabytes and even more like 2, 3, 4 years of historical data to see different trends. So to summarize, bigger marketing agencies who have many clients, many big clients like big brands want to own their data because imagine those big brands spend a lot of dollars collecting this data, cleaning this data up. And they want a place where they can successfully store the older data so they can store data in BigQuery as their database and then they can instantly connect data from their Facebook ads, et cetera, to BigQuery through Supermetrics, and then visualize it, for example, in Tableau or Power BI to get the full picture of their marketing reporting. And yeah, smaller teams tend to use Data Studio, Google Sheets, which are completely free tools, so they are not paying per usage for them. So for them that would be cheaper and therefore more suitable option. How to learn more about marketing analytics Kathleen: Okay. Now I'm going to spring a question on you that I didn't tell you I was going to ask you and you may not have the answer because this is totally off the cuff. But as you spoke about this, you talked about, like, when you start to do more, you should move over to BigQuery. And I imagine for some marketers that could seem kind of intimidating, especially if they don't come from a highly analytical background. So are there certain places that you know of, or can recommend if somebody's listening, and they're thinking, "Oh, my God, that sounds really complicated." I need to get up to speed and learn more about analytics and how to use something like BigQuery. Is there somewhere online they can go to learn and become better at analytics? Anna: Yes, and I actually do have to say that we're working on this. We're very well aware of this worry that people have that, oh, I've been using maybe more simple UIs for my whole life. And now there was this whole like jobs and transfers and the whole different environment, which is coming with this BigQuery. So first of all, I do have to say that we're working on creating a bunch of materials for BigQuery specifically that will show how can use Supermetrics products if you're a marketer like videos, where do you click? How do you create different kind of transfers? How to use different kind of joins? So this is something that we're really hoping to provide and also we do have natively build Data Studio Connectors so after a marketer has gathered all the data in BigQuery, they can use our connector to visualize their data in just a few clicks. And, again, as we publish a video you'll see it's very, very simple and what I really love about BigQuery, although it does sound intimidating, but Google does provide learning resources for that as well. And if you look at the UI, you will notice that it's very, very intuitive. So to say, well at first it's maybe a little bit challenging, but once you get a hang of it, it's actually pretty nice, it's quite clear. From our side, we also provide this monitoring suite where you can see how your transfers are performing. Is your data flowing all in nicely? Is there something to worry about or not? Usually all our transfers are fine. So people have mentioned and you can also see from the client success stories that data flowing in nicely and we haven't experienced that much challenges with Supermetrics for BigQuery. But yeah, more resources coming up. Google does provide their own resources and I think it's important for marketers to at least look into this if it's relevant for them, because this is the general trend. This is where the world is going and you want to be ahead. You definitely want to at least understand what kind of technologies are there. I really liked the quote one of our clients have mentioned. So they said, "It feels like Google BigQuery compared with other providers is built with agencies and with marketers in mind." So that sounds reassuring to me at least that people do say that it's actually feels like it's built for marketers. So I would say, yeah, wait for ours resources and then go and explore on your own and try not to be intimidated by this very techie sounding word. Kathleen's two questions Kathleen: Yeah it can be a lot to think about. But that's great that you guys are working on creating some resources. All right, we can talk about data forever but I have two questions I always ask all of my guests at the end of my interviews, and I would love to get your answers. The first one is, we talked about how the focus on this podcast is about inbound marketing. Who can you think of that whether it's a company or an individual who's just doing inbound marketing really well right now? Anna: Yeah, I will say quite a common answer and I'm pretty sure other guests have already mentioned this company. I think Drift is doing a fantastic job when it comes to inbound marketing, so they have not only created their own category, but when they interact with the people, with their clients, it feels very, very human, which I think they got this trend. This is something many of us need as marketing is becoming more and more techie. We need this kind of catalyst, we need this human connection to feel welcomed. And like I mentioned, they're doing a fantastic job there and one very good example is this one scale playbook, those 41 or 42 plays. As you read through this playbook, you can literally see that the company's trying show their best and make people feel welcomed and warm if they're using their product. Kathleen: Now, that's great. A lot of people have mentioned them, but that's because they're doing great things. Anna: Exactly. Kathleen: Second question is where do you personally go to learn and keep up so that you are able to stay abreast of the cutting edge developments in marketing? Anna: Yeah, so I prefer not to have a one stop shop. So depending on the topic I want to learn more about I go to a variety of different resources. So if I want to learn something more general about what's going on in the world of SaaS marketing, I listen to the SaaStr Podcast. Another amazing podcast I can recommend is the Growth Hub Podcast, and my colleague Edward is a proud host of this podcast. I really love his interviewing style and the guests, which have been on this podcast are simply amazing. So go check it out the Growth Hub Podcast, by Advanced B2B. A couple of other things. So of course I go to MarTech Today and SEJ if I want to learn about news and recent updates, and for us it's especially relevant, because we need to keep up what's going on with all the data source companies. Julian Shapiro, I'm not exactly sure if I'm pronouncing his name correctly, has a couple of fantastic guides on how to write a great copy, how to build a really nice landing page, how to A/B test. So one really good resource there as well and yeah. How to connect with Anna Kathleen: There's a couple new ones there that I haven't heard about. So we'll definitely check those out and put the links in the show notes. If someone wants to reach out to you, if they have a question about what you've talked about, or they want to learn more about Supermetrics, what is the best way for them to connect with you? Anna: Yeah, so definitely the best way is to reach out to me directly, maybe not through the company Twitter, but I'm @superpoweranna on Twitter. Kathleen: That's such a great handle. Anna: I love it as well. It's like Supermetrics plus me. So yeah, @superpoweranna on Twitter, and yeah, just hit me up with anything. And I also am very actively checking LinkedIn messages so Anna Shutko on LinkedIn, please don't hesitate to connect and I'm very happy to have discussions, answer the questions about anything there. So yeah, LinkedIn and Twitter, I would say, are the two go places. You know what to do next... Kathleen: Great. Well, I will put links to all of your various social accounts in the show notes so people can reach out to you and thank you so much for joining me. This was really fun just to talk about analytics and to geek out for a little bit. If you are listening and you liked what you heard or you learned something new as always, I would love it if you would leave the podcast a five star review on Apple Podcasts. That is how people find us and hear about us. And of course if you know someone else who's doing kick ass in non-marketing work, tweet me @WorkMommyWork and I would love to make them my next interview. Thanks, Anna. Anna: Thank you so much Kathleen. Kathleen: So fun.

James: Hey, audience. This is James Kandasamy. Welcome to Achieve Wealth through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, I have Anna Kelley from Central Pennsylvania, who owns around 175 units, around $16 million in worth until now. And you know, I should have invested passively in 900 units. And she's also under contract on around 200 units right now. Hey, Anna, welcome to the show. Anna: Thank you so much for having me. Good to see you, James. James: Good to see you too. And, I mean, for those who do not know, we also have a YouTube channel that shows all our interviews. And you can catch up with us on iTunes or Stitcher or YouTube or Spotify so go and do that. I'm actually in one of my property here in San Antonio so trying to do it from my office. And Anna, are you in your office or where are you right now? Anna: I'm in my home. I'm not actually in my office. James: Yes. Good. Good, we work from home, I guess, right. Anna: Yes. James: So Anna, why don't you tell our audience about yourself? Anna: Sure. So I started out in real estate about 20 years ago, just kind of dabbling in real estate. And I started out doing some property flips and some single-family rentals. And then I slowly started moving up to small multi-unit properties, like four-unit apartment buildings, 10 unit apartment buildings. And I recently last May retired from my full-time career, I worked for AIG for 20 years. And I really built my real estate portfolio up on the side, part-time for all of those years. So busy mom, have four children. And I just went full time. And now I'm focused on and have been focusing on for a while much larger apartment building assets. James: Got it. So let's go back to the beginning. I mean, you work at AIG, which is a big insurance firm. And can you just quickly tell us what was your role? Anna: Sure. So at AIG, I had various different roles. I did internal management, consulting, product development, and then I moved into a role that was very compliance heavy. We worked with private placement hedge funds wrapped in an insurance product. So we worked on SEC audits and filings, reviews of PBMs and hedge funds and things of that nature. James: Got it, so it looks like you have some PPM level syndication experience, even at your workplace, I guess, is that right? Anna: Definitely, we worked with alternative investments for about 17 of the 20 years that I worked there. James: So you work there for 20 years and when did you start to real estate venture? Anna: Why I'd say, you know, I dabbled, I bought some, you know, singles and I bought a flip. And then 12 years ago, when I moved from Texas to Central Pennsylvania to start my husband's chiropractic business, we were looking for properties to lease for his office space. And we found that it was very difficult to do that. But they had a lot of buildings that came with tenants, you know. Older buildings on Main Street that had been converted to businesses on the first floor, most of them had residential rental space on the top floors. And so we bought a building and inherited tenants. We had three tenants with his commercial space. James: Okay. Anna: And then that kind of threw me into the idea of having tenants and having a little extra cash to cover the mortgage. And then at that same time, James, we sold a house in Houston that we lived in, liquidated everything, we had to come here and start a business. And so I knew it wasn't very wise for me to buy another home right away. And AIG let me work from home on a very temporary trial basis to see how it worked out. So I bought a four-unit apartment building for us to live in. So we downsize significantly and house hacked, basically, to make sure that our business expenses, you know, for the space and our housing expenses were covered if I happen to lose my job, you know, 12 years ago when we started out. So that got me into starting to think about and invest in residential real estate. James: Got it. So you basically, you did not like had an ah-ah moment, I need to go tomorrow and buy real estate. You were actually thrown into it? Anna: Well, I'll say this before I went to work for AIG. I was in private banking, I was a Financial Relationship Manager for Bank of America. And so I handled the top 10% of the wealth in our bank, both small businesses and individuals. And what I found is that many of them owned real estate and had accumulated their wealth in real estate or were already investing in real estate. So in my young 20s, I was very interested in real estate thought that it was something lucrative that one day I'd like to own, but I really didn't start thinking too much about it until I had my first child in 2003. And all the flip houses shows, you know, we're coming on and I thought, oh, I can flip a couple of houses and be home with my child. And so I dabbled in flipping before the rental real estate. But my move here is what kind of gave me the impetus to think about rentals more quickly. James: Got it. So, I mean, I never had a woman guest until now. So you are the first one. And I'm very -- Anna: Oh, thank you. James: We have a lot of listeners that are listening everywhere and I'm sure a lot of them are women. So I'm trying to get from a woman’s perspective, on how could they start like what GF started, right? I mean, your husband is working and you are working too. Like, I would say what do you think could be the secret formula, or they're just the formula on how can any woman start while they are in your own position? Anna: Sure, you know, there are different ways to starting, a lot of it James truly does depend on the personality of the person, your family dynamic. You know, how much support you have for watching your children? What other income sources you have, you know, when you're starting out? And how much basically time and money that you have available to get started? So, you know, people that have very, very limited time might have the significant cash flow or they might, their spouse might make enough money that they could really get started more passively. And that's where maybe they want to start investing in other apartments syndications or getting invested as a passive partner maybe joint venturing with someone that has experienced you know, buying and managing either a single or a small multi or a larger and then just investing with money. And learning how to review the financials and review the operations each month and each quarter. Just to kind of get yourself familiar with what it's like to own and manage an asset might be a good way to get started. For someone like me, that doesn't have any cash and really wants to get invested by investing time, you have a lot more opportunity to really educate yourself through reading books and through podcasts. And going to meetup groups to learn what it takes to ask actively, evaluate deals, find them and hire people to update them and improve the values and put a renter in or you can start learning the skills yourself. You know, my husband and I when we started out, he did a lot of the maintenance and I painted every unit. And I called flooring contractors and you know, designed kitchens and help paint cabinets. I mean, we did everything actively because we started out, we had liquidated all of our, you know assets and started out with quite a bit of debt to start a business and we're running that. So we really didn't have a lot of money. So we invest at the time. So there are many ways to get started. But I'd say definitely align yourself with other people that already know what they're doing, attend some meetup groups, listen to podcasts. And then just decide whether you want to be active or passive for your first one or two until you kind of learn what you like, what your personality works well with and kind of what works within your family dynamic. James: Got it. So who convinced who between you and your husband? Did he convince you to, hey let's go and do, spend time and rehab this real estate or did you convince him or how did you? I'm trying to understand how did the discussion happen? Because a lot of people are struggling, I mean could be struggling, right? How do I convince my spouse especially from a woman to the husband side? Usually, the husband can convince the wife, right? But you are the one who's active right now real estate, how did that work out? Anna: Yes. So it's one of those things when we talk about the personality of the individual. When you're married, there are two people involved in your decisions. And my husband and I, from the beginning, have always looked at our finances and our lives as a partnership. But we kind of has our roles in reverse. I mean, he's a doctor, he's a chiropractor, he went to school for a long time. He's very smart. But he's very hands-on and a people person, he doesn't like the finances, he's not financially minded. He's not the kind that wants to be an entrepreneur and grow a big business, like he's content, just having a small practice, and letting me handle all of the finances. So because I had a background in finance and understanding investments, I pretty much have always handled our investments. And when we decided for him to start the business, I kind of took over the operations and learned how to, you know, run a chiropractic business and set up insurance and all that kind of stuff while he was the doctor and saw the patients. And so when it came to real estate, I said, listen, we're starting out with a lot of debt after paying off all of the school that it's just not financially wise for us to do anything other than buying something so we have tenants helping to pay the rent. So it was easy initially to get Vincent to buy his practice and our building, just to be financially wise and not going into more debt. But growing that beyond that was definitely me as the driver, he was busy with this practice. He did not like to do maintenance, but he learned to do it and liked the fact that once we did rehab units, they were worth a lot more and we had a lot more cash and could keep buying them. But I've been told multiple times, slow down, pull off the brakes, we have enough units, why do you want to keep growing? And I am like because I'm passionate about it. And I'm passionate about the wealth that it can create. So I've been kind of the driver. And he's been very supportive and very hands-on for the 70 units that we self manage in our area. But definitely likes that I'm now buying much larger assets where I'm asset managing and he's not involved day to day in the management and maintenance of the properties. James: He must be very happy now. Anna: Very happy, yes. James: Yes, we started with 45 units. And my wife used to be sitting there whenever we were missing our property manager in the beginning, I mean, she was sitting there doing things and I didn't do maintenance. But, I used to be with her and trying to buy this and buy that and make sure you know the contractors are lined up. And it's a lot of work, but it involves teamwork. And yes, we are two different people, we have to learn how to work with each other. Anna: For sure. James: That's good. And so you started with 70 units, with the chiropractic real estate, right? I mean, is it like a commercial center? Anna: It is. It's a commercial mixed-use building. So there's a commercial space that his business lease's from my business. And it had three tenants, three, you know, residential renters and four garages to that property. James: Got it. So you got some kind of tax benefit, I guess because the [inaudible11:44] is leasing from the owner itself, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. James: So get some write off there, good. And how did you, I mean, so after that and then what was the next acquisition that you did? Anna: So James, as many people were affected by the 2008-2009 economic crash. Imagine working for AIG at the time and AIG, you know, coming in and having one of the largest insurance liabilities of any other provider in the country between mortgage insurance and credit default swaps. And I worked for them. So I had already, I had been working for them for a year on a work from home basis. And we thought we were going to be laid off, my stock went from 1-o-1 a share to 43 cents a share. My retirement funds were almost just destroyed. They were destroyed. I lost about two thirds within a week. And I decided, oh man, I'm going to lose my job. My husband has a brand new business with hundreds of thousands of dollars in startup debt and I'm the sole income. So what are we going to do? And the only thing I could think to do right away was to borrow from my 401k, about $50,000 that I had left that I could borrow and buy another four-unit because I thought at least if I buy another 4 unit, I'll have another, you know, $1200 to $1500 dollars a month of cash coming in. And that's in the asset, that is solid and stable that I won't lose any more in the stock market, no matter what happens. So that was my next acquisition. Again, it wasn't really thinking about oh, this isn't a phenomenal investment. It was, what can we do to survive? And I know that cash flow is a good thing. And that residential real estate will not go down in value significantly compared to the stock market. James: Got it. So after that four-unit, what did you buy the next one? Anna: Another four units. James: Okay, and when did you start with the 70 units where you self manage? Anna: Okay, so what we did, we self-managed, again, initially just out of necessity, not having a lot of extra cash, thinking our finances were not super stable because I was the sole breadwinner at that point. My husband's income was nice, you know in six figures gross, but it was covering expenses. And so we just we're continuing to find ways that we could cash flow and make the most cash and be willing to put in the time to do it ourselves and learn at the time. And so we kept buying a couple of single-family homes that we bought as foreclosures, renovated them and instead of selling them as a flip, we did a cash-out refi, we kept them as rentals, we took the proceeds to buy another and another. And then we did the same thing with small four-unit apartment buildings. So four-unit apartment buildings were kind of my niche and the sweet spot for several years chains. Because there were in a smaller area, I'd say maybe a tertiary market right outside of Hershey. And there's not a lot of apartment complex supply, no big complexes, but there's a lot of demand for housing. And so most of the rental real estate here were four-unit apartment buildings that had been built that way or converted, you know, couple decades ago. And there weren't a lot of big buyers buying those four-unit building. So they'd sit for a while. So I kind of I saw a niche where I could buy properties without having a lot of competition. And I could basically treat them like a larger commercial asset, but on a, you know, on a four-unit scale instead of a five or six-unit scale. And so I kind of honed my skill in updating those units, managing those units, raising the values, cashing out repeating. And then decided, okay, now it's time, once I built up, you know, a strong six-figure passive, you know, net rental real estate portfolio, then I decided, now I can retire and I can scale and start going after much larger assets. And so that's what I did. James: Okay, got it. So when was the first time that you acquired a much larger than four-unit property? Which year was that? Anna: Okay, so in 2018, I had basically created a five-year plan James in 2013, that by 2018, I wanted a $5 million portfolio, you know, about $150,000, at least in passive income, and then I would retire and start going for a bigger one. So I'm my goal in four years in 2017. And then just started kind of working my way into, you know, saving six months of salary and expenses for all my buildings and starting to look for larger deals. So I found the first larger deal for me, it was a 73 unit apartment building, right outside of Hershey, Pennsylvania, that I found off the market and I [inaudible16:20] on that with two other owners. That was a six and a half million dollar purchase 73 unit. And we closed on that in 2018. James: Got it. So how did you manage your time? I mean, your husband is working, and you are doing this fourplex, fourplex, fourplex and your four kids. And you give some tips for people who are in a similar situation and how can they manage and be as successful as you are? Anna: You know, I think really the key to my success has just been resilience and grit and determination. I worked truly, most people say oh, rental real estates passive. But I like to say and I totally believe James, that passive income is built on the blood, sweat and tears of active income. And it takes years of active, sometimes to build up the financial wherewithal that you can truly become totally passive. So between my husband's business and my work, and my rental real estate, I truly worked 70 to 80 hours a week over the last 10 years, in order to be able to get to where I am. My four children are all involved in sports, pretty competitive sports. So we have sports every morning, we have sports after school every day. And most days, it's seven days a week, you know, multiple tournaments on a Saturday and on a Sunday. So every waking moment when the kids went to school before I started work, I did real estate. My lunch breaks, I did real estate. My vacation days, five out of six weeks a year, I did real estate, you know, evenings between when the kids got home and I worked, it was real estate. And after nine when the kids were in bed, I often stayed up till midnight to get things done. So it was very time-consuming. But I'm very, very grateful that I stuck with it and did it. And it was just a matter of utilizing every day, I didn't watch TV, we didn't have cable, I didn't go do a lot of recreational things, I really, you know, not nose to the grindstone just focused on building the portfolio so that I could retire and spend more time with my kids. James: Yes, it's really hard work, I can really appreciate what you've gone through. Because I was working and my wife was like running around in the beginning. I mean, I only stopped working after we had like, 340 units. Now we have like, 1300, it's a lot of work, right. So based on what you're saying, it can be done. It's just like not, please don't give excuses, right? Anna: Exactly. I'm here to tell you, you know, if I can do it, working full time, running my husband's business, four kids and doing it, you know, anybody can do it if you just have grit and determination. So you make the time for what's important to you. And I knew that it was important to me to be able to work myself out of my job. And especially with AIG, you know, a couple of years ago, they said, we really are going to sell our unit, and we need to all be prepared to figure something else out in terms of career. So that kind of drove me to have executed my plan in a certain period of time. And now you know, that I'm retired, I'm still very, very busy. But I have the freedom to control my time, you know, to do what I enjoy and go after larger deals where I'm not having to be quite so involved in the day to day. James: Yes Can you define what is grit and determination in your mind? Anna: Sure, so grit is the ability to stick with something, no matter what comes, no matter what obstacles without basically, you know, melting into a wallflower. And just keep ongoing. And, you know, there's been a lot of studies done on what makes people successful. And you know, some kids were tracked from high school, through college, through their professional lives and they were really surprised that the top students like the valedictorian, the [inaudible20:04] rarely ended up actually being the most successful people in their professional lives. It was usually the people that went through a lot of hardships, and just kept going and push through and got creative and figured a way through and around every obstacle and became stronger and more confident, and determined. And those are the people that ended up the most successful. So I just I think it's an extra drive and extra determination and a willingness to keep pushing through no matter what and to not give up on your goals. James: Yes, so look, I mean, I always tell my listeners and whoever talked to me that it's always, you know, whether you want to be successful, or whether you like to be successful, whether you required to be successful so, I mean, if you have been this successful, you must have that, I really need, I really required to be successful. I mean, is that true statement that you came to that way? Anna: I think so. I grew up with very, in very humble means. And I always knew that I wanted to create a different type of lifestyle and a different financial future for my kids and I was just determined to do it. So I've always been driven, I've always taken on challenges. You know, my first job at Bank of America, I won the number one ranked Financial Relationship Manager in Texas and Employee of the Year awards at multiple jobs, my first couple of years. Because I've always had, that I'm going to be the best, I'm going to succeed, I'm going to achieve and do whatever it takes attitude. So I think part of that was ingrained in me from a young age. James: Yes, I think it's important, I mean, just the personality itself and the drive to be successful and the requirement; I mean, because your husband and your AIG was going downhill and you must be successful otherwise, your family, it may not be in a good place, in terms of financial. So that's really good. So describe to me, what was your toughest day in a one day when you have like four kids and all going to all these classes and schools and all that? Have any time where you think that, oh, my God, this is just too much for me as a mom and as a real estate sponsor? And can you describe that feeling and experience? Anna: Yes, I just actually, you know, Facebook is kind of a mixed bag of whether you like it, or whether you don't. But I like the Facebook memories that kind of pop up and remind you of something. And I had something pop up this last week, about a three day in the life of a real estate investor that works full time and has four kids. And I looked back and thought, well, I don't know how I survived it. But back in February of 2018, I believe it was, I had a call that there was mould in the basement and that they were smelling mould. So they opened it up and there was a lot, well, you know, I'm thinking it's probably like a dripping water heater or something we walked in and there was literally like six inches of goopy mould hanging from every rafter of every space in the basement of a three-unit apartment building with the ground floor, a dirt floor. And when we opened it up, I mean, it was just really bad. And what had happened was a hot water heater, pressure relief valve had failed in the basement, nobody seemed to notice nobody called us. The person in hindsight said, you know, I thought my hot water pressure was kind of low and not as hot. And I should have called you well, within about a six week period, six to eight weeks, somewhere in there, our entire three in an apartment building was just covered in mould. And inside all the units, I had to meet the tenants, it was snowing and really bad weather. And I had to call, you know, restoration companies and re-home all my tenants and get all of this stuff out of the property. Right after that, we had another property where a roof blew off in another big storm. And we're handling the kids and multiple other small things were going wrong, we had a couple of frozen pipes because it was a winter that the ground was just frozen for so many days. So we're dealing with frozen pipes, re-homing tenants, working full time, insurance, the tenants all wanted to sue me because there was mould and their kids were sick and going to the hospital. And my kids were just young and very needy. And it was like a two or three week period where I thought I'm done, I can't do this anymore. It's not worth it. It's too hard. And I kind of had a little pity party for a few weeks and said, okay, I need to take a break. I'm not buying anything else. And I took about a three-month break where I didn't buy anything else. And I just kind of took care of those issues. And then, you know, said I need some breather time, we went to the beach. And after I got back from the beach, I'm like, okay, I'm refreshed. It's behind us now that I've handled that period can do anything and just kept going. James: It's crazy the amount of pressure and tense moment that you have during that kind of things with family and issues with the deal. So I want to ask one last question before we go into the details of some of the deals that you have done here. So why do you do what you do? I mean, you don't have to do this right now. Right? Anna: So a couple of things, James, I'm really passionate about real estate, I'm really passionate about wealth building. And there is nothing like real estate to build wealth. You know, I started out teaching clients about mutual funds and stocks and bonds and how they can make you know, eight to 10% returns on their money if you time everything right. And realize that it takes money to be invested in the stock market. It's volatile and it's risky. And really, people can go from nothing to multi-millionaire in a couple of years of investing in real estate if they do it the right way. And so I've just seen the real power in that. You know we went from literally negative $750,000 net worth when we started my husband's business to a several million dollar net worth and just a few years of really aggressively buying rental real estate. And so it changes lives. And I want people to know, especially women, that that you can change your financial family trajectory, not just for today, but for future generations. And also we're providing really good housing to people. So you know, I grew up in government housing, my mom was a single mom, she was a property manager for a government housing apartment complex. And I know what it's like to grow up in an apartment and we didn't have the best amenities. You know, all my friends were wealthy, and I lived in a little apartment complex. And I've worked with inner-city kids who live literally in shacks with dirt floors in the middle of Houston, Texas. And to be able to empower people and say, your life can be different. And I can show you the financial tools to take better steps and to know better so that you can create generational wealth for yourself. And it just empowers me, it drives me to keep doing it, not just for my own wealth accumulation, but to help other people to learn that they can do the same. James: Yes, that's very interesting. I mean, what you say this, anybody can do this, right? And I know a lot of people are listening to you, there will be some people who think, yes, I can do it too. Then there's another group of people, they're going to give reasons, oh, Anna has this, Anna has that, that's why she's successful. So if you are the one who's giving reasons, I know you want to stop that, because indefinitely, you can make money in real estate, especially millions of dollars, if you really work hard. And if you really, really want it, a lot of them just do not want to do the work. They really don't want the success, they just want to continue with their life and just go ahead and do whatever they've been doing and let the life takes wherever it takes them. Anna: Yes and I think part of that James, for so many years, you see these teams, these shows reality TV, and people convince you that it's easy money that you can do it, that you can be successful. There's coaching programs and gurus that you know, charging five, ten, twenty thousand dollars to sign up and learn how to do real estate. And they promise you that if you follow these three steps, you're going to be independently wealthy in a year or two. And I think when reality hits people, and they start investing, and they start to see how hard it actually can be on a day to day basis until you build up that experience and that wealth, they just give up and they feel like failures because they've been sold an unrealistic expectation of getting rich quick in real estate, when it's really the long game. You know, you're playing a long game, it takes sometimes longer than it should you know, some people get lucky or find the right network and connections and very quickly can build wealth. But for most people, it's slow and methodical growth. And it's just people need to realize that it's not easy, but it's not that complicated if they just stick with it. James: Yes. And they are people who did one real estate and failed badly. And they gave up on real estate. So there other people that you know, yes, one time fail doesn't mean anything we could, we would have failed many times, I guess. Right, so. Anna: Sure. I lost money on my first flip. And I was convinced I'd never do another one. And yes, I changed my mind quickly. And I've done a few but rental real estate is really where the wealth build up comes. James: Yes, yes, in my single-family days, I do like 11 rentals, but I was also doing two flips. And I regret doing flips, because I made like, 40,000 on one flip and I buy a loss and $1,000 on another flip. And that thousand dollars feel very painful. Anna: Yes James: Because you shouldn't be losing money in real estate, but it really taught me a lot of things on how I didn't do it right in terms of the flip. But just because somebody did one and they fail, doesn't mean the whole real estate is a scam. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: Definitely make millions of dollars in real estate, especially if you're living in the US. Anna: Yes, yes. James: It's a country where it allows anybody to grow, there is no limit is just you. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: So no reasons, right? So if you give reasons, that's you so that's the only thing. So let's go to some of the deals that you have been done. And you so you are buying fourplex, fourplex, fourplex. And you started [inaudible30:21] on the 70 units and you self manage and you go into the syndication, why are you going into syndication now? Anna: So, I think some of it comes back to the time and the money, that spectrum of do I have more time or do I have more money? When I got started, I didn't have money and I could have said I didn't have time, but I made time. So it was a heavy, heavy time investment. As I built wealth and as I built more cash flow, it just made more sense for me to be able to scale larger with other partners and to be able to be an asset manager, operator, rather than the property manager or the maintenance person. So I've gotten to a point in my life where even though I've retired from my job, I really want my evenings to be free with my children and just to be wife and mom in the evenings and just spend a certain number of hours a day doing real estate. And so I got to a place where I had to say, you know, how can I really scale if I'm still self-managing many, many more units, it's going to take me a lot longer of full time effort, even though I don't have a job. And I wasn't really willing to sacrifice any more years with my children working more than 40 hours a week. And so I wanted to control my time and continue to scale. So I figured I needed to start working with other people, utilizing other people's time and other people's money. And the larger multifamily allows you to do that because you can afford full-time property management, full-time maintenance staff and really become more of an asset manager and business plan executer than you are an individual who self-managing your own properties. James: Yes, business plan executer, that's the operator definition, I would say. Anna: Yes. James: How do you define operator slash active asset manager in your mind? Anna: Sure. So an operator is basically the person responsible for operating that asset soup to nuts and executing your business plan. So it's generally, you're just general partners. And there will be either all the general partners will be involved in the asset management or overseeing the business plan and making sure that your plan for that particular property is being executed the right way. So for example, if we're buying a value add property, like the 73 unit that we did and the others that I go after, it's a property that is usually poorly managed, its expenses are not being managed well, the rents are below market, and perhaps the units need to be updated in order to maximize the rents so that you can then increase the value of that property. So as an asset manager and operator, I'm working with our property management company or a property manager and with our contractors to make sure that you know, when units come available, we turn those units quickly, we update them on time and on budget, we raise the rents, we get the new tenants in there. So that we can execute our plan to raise the values before we sell or refi. And we work with the property managers to make sure that they're cutting the expenses in the way that we planned, that they're monitoring the expenses, monitoring the rents, making sure rents are being collected, and you're just basically overseeing soup to nuts, all of the things that are supposed to happen to make your asset more valuable. James: Got it, do you think there's a certain advantage of being a local asset manager? Anna: I would say yes, in that really bad, unforeseen, unexpected things happen, like mould damage, or like when blowing roofs off or a hurricane, you can be at that asset very, very quickly. And you can also stop in and visit with your property manager, your property management company on a monthly basis, bimonthly basis and just say, hey, let's walk the ground, show me what you're doing. And there's just never anything as valuable as actually being on the ground and seeing it. However, in today's world, where we have the technology, we have zoom, we have our phones, where we can take pictures, and we can walk around, it's pretty easy to do things virtually as well. So while the operator in me that's always had, you know, my boots on the ground, and always been able to see kind of likes the control of being able to be at a property within an hour. It's not necessary, if you trust your team and have a good team that's boots on the ground, and can just go to your asset maybe once or twice a year. So I haven't really done it from afar. I'm asset managing my first property that we have under contract right now, two properties in Atlanta. And so I'll be sharing asset management responsibilities there. And that'll give me a little better feel for how much easier or harder it is to do from afar. James Got it. Got it. So let's come back to value add. So all the deals that you're buying a presume are value add, right? Anna: Yes. James: I mean, you're adding some things to the operation, either the income or the expense, right? So what do you think is the most valuable value add in your mind? Anna: So I really like Class A to B areas and an older building because your area you can't change, a lot of syndicators go after class C area, workforce housing and older buildings. And so you're struggling not only to bring the asset up to today's standards but also with a tenant pool who may suffer more heavily if we head into a recession or they may be more susceptible to losing jobs and not being able to pay rent. Where when you're in a nicer area where there's really good school districts and people want to live, there's a lot of good employers and a lot of good shopping and things around, you're always going to have people that want to move into that area because it offers the best lifestyle for those people. And so if you can find an older asset, you know, you're not struggling with the area to keep your units filled. It's just a matter of now offering an asset that people want to live in while they are in that area. So I'm really a value add investor, not doing like full major repositions, taking units in a C class area, that's 40% bacon and trying to fill them up. I like stable assets in a stable area that just needs some updating and operational efficiency in order to bring them up to today's standards. James: Good, that's very interesting. I never heard that from anyone else. Because the strategy is for you to look for the good area, but look for older buildings and try to improve from those older buildings, I guess. Anna: Yes. James: Okay. Interesting. But what about the like interior rehabs and do you do any like rehabs on the inside? And do you think is there any specific rehab that you think is more valuable than others? Anna: Sure, you know, it's really market-driven James's I know that you know, but for your listeners, every market demand something different. So where some parts of the country in order to get you to $1100 a month rent might demand granite countertops, and they might want really nice luxury vinyl plank flooring, other areas like tile, and they don't like granite, they like maybe stone countertops, and other areas to get that much, you might be competing with a $3,000 a month luxury apartment that would have granite and vinyl plank and maybe 1000 would get you carpet and a nice floor-laminate. So you've really got to look at what does your particular market demand and not just assume that every rehab has to be a cookie-cutter that looks the same. So what I do is I look at what is the competing market? What is the complex is offering to get that top rent that they're getting today? And I kind of secret shop those complexes or go on their website and see what those units look like. So for the 73 unit, for example, our property was a 1985 vintage when we bought it in 2018. So it was a little bit older, had a lot of original oak cabinets, plain commercial grade carpet, old looking vinyl. And basically we went in and we just changed up the flooring to vinyl plank flooring in the main living areas with carpet in the bedrooms. And the reason we did carpet in the bedrooms is because it's really cold in the northeast. And so a lot of people don't like solid flooring in their bedrooms. So we kind of save a little bit of money on doing carpet in the bedrooms and vinyl plank elsewhere. And we replace some countertops and updated old cream-coloured appliances to stainless steel, or very nice white depending on the unit. And then we painted the apartments, a soft, grayish color kind of more on the gray side. But the flooring has kind of had some greys and browns that go well with everything. And really for just a couple thousand dollars in new flooring and paint and some countertops and appliances, we were able to raise the rents $200 a unit. So it was a significant increase in rents because when we bought the property, not only were the units kind of dated, but the owners had not raised rents on several other tenants for several years. And so the property right next door to ours was asking 175 to 225 more a unit with the exact same floor plans as we had. So it was a great property because we didn't have to do a whole lot in order to bump those rents and achieve that big increase in value. James: Got it. So I want to go a bit more detail on how did you choose your rehab plan because you said you did countertops, you did stainless steel and a few other things there. But it's for example, how did you choose? Why did you want to install stainless steel appliances? Can you give some education on how did you go to that process, say I want to do stainless than black appliances? Anna: Well, and again, this is we've kind of left appliances, we've kind of played with it a little bit because we had so much room to bump the rents. And we looked at what is next door offering? They're the biggest competitor. So next door had certain units where they offered a premium package with stainless steel appliances. But the standard package didn't, it had white appliances. So we said for the first couple that comes available, let's do the vinyl plank, let's paint them. And if there's a cream color, for example, one unit had a cream color stove and a white refrigerator and cream color, you know stove and we said let's keep the brand new white refrigerator. And let's just put in a white dishwasher, a white stove and see if we can get the rent that we want without going stainless. So we did that on a few. And we had a huge waiting list of people that wanted those apartments, they couldn't care less about the stainless steel and so we didn't do it. So you know initially we thought we were going to go all stainless but people, we've been achieving the rent bumps we want without having to do stainless. And so we haven't done it at this point. James: Got it. Yeah, that's how you and I think that's a good strategy to look at the base on where you didn't want to overspend versus how much rent bump you need, right, because -- Anna: Yes. Sorry, go ahead. James: No, I mean, somebody can use that extra money for something else. Anna: Exactly. And the other thing, you know, because I focused primarily in my general area, I know the market like the back of my hand. So the buildings that we bought the 73 unit and the subsequent 31 unit that we just brought too, they're basically my direct competition. So I know what tenants are looking for, I'm already offering it in my town. And basically within a 30-mile radius, we know this is what the market demands, this is how much room we can get for it. And so while people think, oh, I need to do all these fancy bells and whistles, you really just need to look at what your competition is doing it over, improve it to the level that you're going to get the top rent, but don't over-improve it to the point here that you're spending needless cap backs, that aren't going to get you that much of an incremental rent bump. James: Got it, sounds really awesome man. Let's go back to the slightly more personal side. Is there a proud moment in your real estate career that you are really, really proud of, one moment? Anna: One moment, I think, on my 73 unit, sitting down with my JV partner and his partner that he had partnered with stuff, and really being able to convince him that this was an amazing asset to invest in. And he agreed to fund my first large syndication deal. So I was just really proud that I was able to build up the financial knowledge and build up the confidence and the track record from what I had done on a smaller scale that investors would trust me to take their investment and really manage an asset well for them. James: That's where you broke out from the four units to more than 70 units, which is a big achievement, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. And I think that and the day that I retired, when I was able to retire from a job where I worked with accredited investors to be able to say, you know what, I'm retiring, I've replaced my income, I've more than doubled it, I'm now an accredited investor. And I don't ever have to work for someone else, again, I think is probably one of the best moments of my life. James: Yes, that's really important. Can you name like three or five advice that you want to give for newbies who want to walk along your path? Anna: Sure, I'd say educate yourself as much as you can, you know, listen to these great podcasts and just learn from people that have already done it because you learn the things not to do and you learn that the good habits to do to kind of make yourself an excellent investor. So really commit to your education, podcast, read some books and attend some local investor meetup groups so that you can align yourself with other investors. So one is education. One is networking and alignment. And you'll get some continual growth and continue education just from learning from people that are in your network that are already doing what you want to do. I would say also start really looking at yourself and what your goals really are. So like you said early in the podcast, many people think they want to be a real estate investor. But when they discover how hard it is to do so, they kind of back off and maybe flounder for a while. And all of us can do that if we really don't know why we're doing something. So look at yourself, ask yourself what you really want in life. And why do you think real estate can get you there and then back into how much time and money am I willing to commit to my real estate investing venture. And if you don't have a lot of time, you've got to commit yourself to find money or finding other people's money or working with other people. And if you have a lot of time and not money or I think vice versa, then you need to really be willing to put in that time. And so look at your why; look at your time and your money and start figuring out how best to utilize every moment of time that you have, every moment of cash you have and other people's time and money so that you can start to scale as quickly as possible. James: Awesome, awesome. So Anna, why don't you tell our listeners how to get hold of you? Anna: Sure. So I'm on Facebook as Anna ReiMom Kelley. And I have a Facebook group called Creating Real Estate Wealth that lasts with Anna ReiMom, where we talk about real estate and really creating wealth and kind of the good, bad and the ugly of all the different asset classes. And you can email me at info@reimom.com. James: Well, Anna, thanks for coming into the show and providing tons of value. Anna, you gave a lot of very good perspective from how you juggle your role between being a mom and being a wife and trying to grow the business and I think our listeners would absolutely get tons of value out of this. And as I say there's no reason not to be successful in anything that you do and real estate is just a tool. You can be successful in anything but you can be successful if you really put your heart into it. If you really, really want it you will be successful. I mean, if you give reasons, there are tons of reasons you can give not to do something. Anna: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, James. It's been my pleasure. James: Thank you, Anna, bye. Anna: Bye.

Anna Jordan talks to Jackie Fast, an entrepreneur, author, speaker and candidate on The Apprentice in 2018. We discuss how to build a business at home and how to get started with sponsorships.   Be sure to visit SmallBusiness.co.uk for more articles on bootstrapping your business and managing your cash flow. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Read the transcript for the podcast interview Hello and welcome to Small Business Snippets, the podcast from SmallBusiness.co.uk. I’m your host, Anna Jordan. In this episode we have Jackie Fast, an entrepreneur, speaker, author and former candidate on The Apprentice. She came to the UK from Canada in 2007 as a first stop on her European backpacking tour but decided to stick around and work as a sponsorship director at the Data & Marketing Association instead. In 2010, Jackie began building her business, Slingshot Sponsorship. She sold the firm in 2016 and is now running REBEL Pi, a Canadian ice wine company.  We’ll be talking about building a business from home and how to make sponsorship work for you. Anna: Hello, Jackie. Jackie: Hello, Anna. Anna: How are you doing? Jackie: I’m very good, thanks. Great. Let’s start with your arrival in the UK. What made you decide to give up your backpacking adventure to work in London and build a business here instead? Jackie: Honestly when I arrived – I’m from a small town in Canada – my experience was minimal. I’ve always been very ambitious and very determined. A lot of the people around me were not so much. So when I came to London it really was to explore Europe because obviously people talk about it and I’d never been to Paris. When I landed in London I was just overwhelmed with the energy of the city – not necessarily the energy you’d get from a city like New York but the people and the views that the people had here and the types of work that they were doing. I met a lot of people in finance and I didn’t even know that was a job that you could have and I was just blown away. It wasn’t an immediate thing. I was supposed to be here for two weeks and then travel the rest of Europe and then I was like: ‘Oh, I love London, I’ll stay a couple more weeks, that went on to a couple more months and then I was like: ‘I don’t want to leave’ and then over time I thought: ‘I just really want to stay here.’    When you launched Slingshot Sponsorship you only had a laptop and £2,000. How did you support yourself financially in the early days of the business? I’m sure a lot of our listeners will want to know. Jackie: Not well! I’m pretty frugal, actually – generally. But basically, over those initial months I just cut back hardcore. I didn’t really leave the house for weeks on end. I wasn’t eating beans on toast, but I was certainly eating a lot of ready meals and stir fries and cereal. But for the first, I’d say, year and a half, I wouldn’t even go to Starbucks. I couldn’t even afford takeout coffee, quite frankly, because every single pound I saved was going towards hiring my first employee and it was really hard. Slingshot got successful early, but I didn’t really have personal money for at least two or three years, I’d say. And you know, I only literally just bought this house when I sold the business. Up until then, all my friends owned houses and I couldn’t afford to – I was renting. But I always had it in me that I’d make that sacrifice. We’re recording in Jackie’s house, by the way, just for a bit of context. What about income? Jackie: So, £2,000 could pay the rent for four months, basically, and I took a couple of commission-only things. I had a lot of small clients. It took me nine months to secure my first client. So, I’d take small jobs that’d pay £500, £600, £1,000 and I’d just live off those kinds of things and those kinds of projects. I worked hard to try to get people to give me money, like all small businesses do, but I was really conscious about how much money I spent. And our website is a great example. When we launched Slingshot I went out to loads of agencies, everybody was quoting something like £7,000, £6,000 and I didn’t even have the money. I ended up going to a digital agency who I knew through the Data Marketing Association and asked to swap, to be kind of like a case study for them. It was kind of like a guinea pig thing and I ended up paying, like, nothing for it. I just bartered for everything. Anna: It’s interesting because they say entrepreneurs, even when they start earning a lot more money, still have the frugal mindset all those years later. Jackie: Yeah, I’ve always been like that. My husband jokes a lot because before I sold Slingshot and after I sold Slingshot – there’s no difference. We have a nice house and we’ve had some great travelling experiences for sure. But I don’t spend a lot of money – we don’t spend a lot of money. Almost all of the money I made from Slingshot has been reinvested in other businesses. I bought our house which is a huge accomplishment for me, but everything else has gone into making more money.            Anna: Usually we ask about our guest’s specialisms, which in this case is sponsorships. Jackie: It’s everything, Anna. What do you mean, just sponsorship?! For a beginner, what is sponsorship and how can a small business owner make opportunities work for them? Jackie: In a nutshell, sponsorship is a collaboration between two businesses. Most people look at sponsorship as a transaction of giving somebody logos or branding or badging in return for money, but in a lot of cases the big sponsorships are done in contra. In a way, the website agency I was just talking about – I swapped to be a case study for them and they gave me a website. In a sense that was a sponsorship and I think the future of all business is sponsorship. Most people will be familiar with stuff like FireFest and Beats by Dre. All of that is sponsorship.     Any kind of collaboration between two organisations is effectively sponsorship. How do you handle that first approach, then? I imagine that those relationships and creating those first impressions are very important. Jackie: Actually, one of the things you said was the right and the other thing you didn’t. A lot of people think it’s who you know. Everybody thinks: ‘Well, I could sell sponsorship if I just knew the head of HSBC.’ I know the head of HSBC and I’ve never ever sold him anything because I everything I ever had wasn’t a good fit for what they did. Knowing people isn’t the point but what you also said is having a first impression. Where people fall flat is they don’t really understand what they’re selling, they don’t package it very well and they don’t value it. It’d be like going into a shop without a price tag, with rubbish stuff in the window, you wouldn’t go in. Same deal with sponsorship. And I think there needs to be an increase in professionalism for making those approaches and I think that Slingshot was testament to that because effectively, that’s all we did. I didn’t create events, I didn’t make something better – I took what I had and made it valuable to brands. When a small business is starting out, what kind of information and events can they seek out to help them? Jackie: I think there are two things. If you’re a rights holder, say you are an event or an online publication or a podcast or a travel blogger or whatever, it really is about how you package your assets and then understanding which brands to approach. I’ve written a book called Pinpoint which is the only book dedicated to sponsorship sales. If you are a brand looking for a sponsorship, that in a way is easier because everybody wants money but from a brand perspective, it really is Is the event you’re interested in going to speak to your target audience? Do you have a good reason for being there? Is it authentic? Are you going to approach it in an interesting way? How can you connect with people in a genuine and authentic way? And that’s best done by market research? Jackie: I think it’s dependent on the brand but yeah, market research, I think, understanding your audience. Let’s just say you’re after mums. Let’s say you’re a new gym for mums, or… I don’t know, I’m not a mother, this is the worst thing to go! You can actually look for a platform out there to reach mums. Race for Life is a huge one and it’s in local communities. But let’s say you want mums based in Leeds. You can find forums and groups within Leeds and the events they’re approaching or the physical venue space. There might be a digital community or a forum and then say: ‘This is my product and I’m interested in working with you as a sponsorship.’ Not advertising – I’d never recommend advertising. And most people will have a sponsorship package. What kind of things should you be looking for in that package, then? Jackie: I would always look for opportunities that go beyond a logo – I don’t think badging is valuable anymore. Brand recall used to be valuable in the 80s, but we’re hit with 60,000 messages a day now. Your brain just gets tuned off. So, I’d be looking for what kind of assets engage with your audience. Speaking opportunities would be something because they give you an opportunity to talk. Guest blog spots, posts, can we run a joint promotion, a campaign? Can we distribute free product? Those are the kinds of things I think really push the needle on sponsorship.     As mentioned in the intro, these days you’re running Rebel Pi, an ice wine company, which is quite a niche. It’s also quite a risky business – you were explaining that it’s very dependent on temperature, weather conditions and people being able to pick grapes quickly in the middle of the night at short notice. How do you manage this risk, particularly in terms of cash flow? Jackie: I’d probably say that I’m not managing it well. I went from selling ideas to selling a physical product which I wanted to do to test myself. It is very hard from a production standpoint because the only way to make ice wine is picking grapes at below -8C. If it doesn’t get below -8C, you don’t have a vintage, you don’t have a product. So, you have to be patient, you have to work with really smart people in the vineyard who know how to create ice wine each year and you have to be willing to ride it out. In our first year, we’ve done really well, we’ve sold about 60pc of our bottles. It’s now listed in places like City Social, 67 Pall Mall, Pied a Terre, Dinner by Heston – all those kinds of top places. Now for me it’s asking: ‘Do we have enough production for next year?’ We’re holding back stock, so that if we didn’t get a vintage next year, we could then still distribute. I wouldn’t want you to be able to go into a restaurant, be able to order it and then next month you can’t – for 12 months. I’m managing stock but from a financial perspective, I’m taking a hit, basically. I’m not talking about being profitable on this until year three, really. It will be – if all things go to plan – it’s not winter yet – if all things go to plan, it should be fine for next year. But in the event that we’re not, I’m looking long-term at this.   I created this product because I was on TV and I didn’t want to waste my 15 minutes of fame. I wanted to have something that people could buy. That was a stupid strategy because the majority of the people who watch The Apprentice are 14-year-old girls. They can’t even legally buy my wine! I launched the business with an expectation that was incorrect and I’ve had to fix it. I’ve changed the strategy and everything’s fine. It’s great – I’m super-excited to be working with a product that you can touch, you can taste – I’m excited about it.     It does seem like you have a very clear target market, especially the premium which I think people are moving away from more disposable, fast type things to buying less but better quality. It’s a better direction to go in. Jackie: For sure – people are drinking less, people are buying less, but when they do it, they want to enjoy it. That’s certainly what I’ve found personally, and amongst my group of friends. And the greatest thing about ice wine in the UK market is that almost nobody’s had it. When do you get to give somebody a first? It’s so unheard of. I’m so excited about that.          Yeah, for sure. You mentioned The Apprentice and it giving you a kind of platform. But you were already a seasoned and successful entrepreneur when you went on The Apprentice, having sold Slingshot. Alan Sugar even fired for you for being too experienced to be the business partner that he wanted. What did you get out of the programme in the end? Jackie: I’ll go back to the first part. The only reason I did The Apprentice was because I sold my business. I don’t know if I would’ve had the courage to do so before, but I’d built enough of a name for myself so if I came across looking awful, at least I had a fallback on my previous success. Well, I mean you don’t know. You have no idea what you’re going into, so I was lucky. Anna: So much of it is in the edit as well, isn’t it? You never know what’s going to happen! Jackie: It’s unrealistic to think that – first of all, it’s an entertainment programme and I am not stupid to not be aware of that. It would also be naïve to think that you are 100pc great 100pc of the time. There are very long days, you’re working with people you don’t know, you have no idea what to expect, you can’t prep at all. All of those mistakes that I made that were absolutely hilarious, I totally made. That’s not an edit, that’s 100pc what I did because that’s what happens – that’s what happens in life. You just don’t have a camera following you around 24/7 waiting for you to mess up. But in terms of what I took away from it, so when I got asked, I was like: ‘I don’t even know if I can do this’, but then I did. My husband was very kind and said if I was awful, we would fly to India and blow off steam for a year. Fortunately, we didn’t have to move. Now, in hindsight, if you asked if I would do it again I would do it in a heartbeat. It was so different than what I expected. What I got out of it was experience doing totally different things which I love. If I could spend a year doing that every single day, I would. Anna: Oh yeah, the variety’s so much fun. Jackie: I got to make doughnuts, I sold stuff at a bodybuilding thing, I created an art gallery. You couldn’t do those things in a lifetime. I was really fortunate to do that. I still talk to Claude Littner (one of Lord Sugar’s advisors) a lot and he’s been great and met some great people on it as well. What was your favourite part of the process? Jackie: I think my favourite part – at the time it was pretty stressful – I can say that I didn’t love being in the house. I loved doing the tasks. My favourite task was possibly the art task. Wait no, actually, that’s a lie – the shoe task! I lost, but my favourite task though. What made it your favourite? Jackie: I got to design a shoe! I love shoes and I got to be the boss, which I like to be because it’s easier. It was a lot of fun. It also played to my wheelhouse like selling stuff to businesses – and B2B sales is what I do. You said you got along well with Claude. There was one contestant you didn’t have a particularly good relationship with. What advice do you have for working with a personality that clashes with your own? Jackie: I think The Apprentice isn’t a real-life situation. My recommendation to myself was having more patience which I did not have. In a real-life situation, honestly, and this is not what people would say – avoid the person, quite honestly. You won’t always get on with everybody, and people won’t always get along with you. And that’s OK, there’s nothing wrong with that. Being able to work with somebody that you don’t like is an asset. I wouldn’t try to beat a dead horse. You shouldn’t really be there to make friends with people, you’re there to do your job. You should also try not to make their job harder. My honest advice would be to have minimal interaction with the person you don’t like. Anna: Just trying to stay out of each other’s space, I guess. Jackie: Which in The Apprentice was impossible because we were living together!   Anna: Smashing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jackie. Jackie: Thanks for having me, Anna. Anna: You can find out more about Jackie at jackiefast.com. You can also visit smallbusiness.co.uk for more guidance on bootstrapping your business and managing your cash flow. Remember to like us on Facebook @SmallBusinessExperts and follow us on Twitter @smallbusinessuk, all lower case. Until next time, thank you for listening.    

If you work in the healthcare industry you have a huge responsibility when it comes to managing sensitive patient information, whether you're a big software vendor or a single physiotherapist, everyone needs to follow the same rules, and there are some pretty serious consequences for not doing it properly.  Do you know what your obligations are and if you're doing a good job? Check this episode out to find out!   Who is Anna Johnston Anna Johnston is one of Australia's most respected experts in privacy law and practice. She has qualifications in law, public policy and management, and 26 years' experience in legal, policy and research roles.  Anna has a breadth of perspectives and a wealth of experience to dealing with privacy and data governance issues. She is the former Deputy Privacy Commissioner for NSW, so she knows the regulator's perspective and since 2004 is the Director for consulting firm “Salinger Privacy”. Anna has been called upon to provide expert testimony before various Parliamentary inquiries and the Productivity Commission, spoken at numerous conferences, and is regularly asked to comment on privacy issues in the media.   Anna holds a first class honours degree in Law, a Masters of Public Policy with honours, a Graduate Certificate in Management, a Graduate Diploma of Legal Practice, and a Bachelor of Arts, plus a number of other relevant and well regarded certificates and industry associations.  In this Episode you'll learn 2:08 - About Salinger Privacy 4:55 - Privacy Concerns in Data (with a focus on health tech) 8:15 - All about, privacy reviews, data flows, data governance, and privacy design 14:28 -AI - How does it fit ethically, legally and is policy keeping up with innovation  16:40 - AI - GDPR, challenges for AI with diagnostic decisions   20:10 - AI - Transparency, Accountability and Consent 26:00 - Legal Obligations with Data Privacy Key TakeAways When it comes to privacy law in Australia, the same laws and consequences apply to everyone dealing with healthcare information - whether they are a big institution of a single doctor. While Data Privacy breaches do happen they are often the result of lack of education and or the best intentions in mind, not so much because of malicious intent Often AI is trained on data that was collected not for the intention of training the machine, so the concept of informed consent is a tricky one  The simple “tick this box to agree” actually isn't enough and more emphasis needs to be put on clearly communicating clearly with the person who's data is being collected The expectations of patients data privacy holds the health and medical industries to the highest levels of scrutiny meaning that breaches are to be reported to the Price  Commissioners office and the patients whose privacy has been breached   Links Anna Johnston Twitter - @SalingerPrivacy  Anna Johnston LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-johnston-ba188410a/ Notifiable Data Breaches Scheme - https://www.oaic.gov.au/ndb  GDPR - https://www.oaic.gov.au/privacy/guidance-and-advice/australian-entities-and-the-eu-general-data-protection-regulation/  MSIA - https://msia.com.au/  Salinger Privacy - https://www.salingerprivacy.com.au/  My Health Record (Formerly PCEHR) - https://www.myhealthrecord.gov.au/  NDIS - https://www.ndis.gov.au/  National Health and Medical Research Council - https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/    Transcript [00:00:00] Pete: With me today is Anna Johnson. Anna is one of Australia's most respected experts in Privacy Law and practice. She has qualifications in law, public policy and management and 26 years experience in legal policy and research roles. Anna has a breadth of perspectives and a wealth of experience in dealing with privacy and data governance issues. She's the former deputy privacy commissioner for New South Wales.So she really knows regulatory perspective well, and since 2004 is the director for consulting firm Salinger Privacy Anna holds a first-class honours degree in law, a masters of public policy and honors a graduate certificate in management a graduate diploma of legal practice Anna Bachelor of Arts plus a number of other relevant and well-regarded certificates and Industry associations, Anna no longer practices as a solicitor so I am allowed to tell the occasional lawyer joke apparently which is great because that's what I'll probably do Anna thanks so much for joining. [00:01:06] Anna: Thanks Peter great to be here. [00:01:07] Pete: I think we came across each other because you were doing some stuff with MSIA a before the Medical Software Industry Association. [00:01:15] Anna: Yes, I presented at their annual conference recently and then also ran a workshop about privacy by Design so for anyone in that space of Designing health-related technology how to understand the kind of the skills and strategies that will help you build privacy compliance into the design upfront rather than trying to retrofit later.  [00:01:39] Pete: Love to get into more of that detail a bit later on in the conversation too. So, you know you're well well primed for the health Tech space and it's kind of cool to have someone on the show that you know is involved in many different Industries. You're not a vendor you're another player in this kind of big space in an area that's super important these days in our area of Health Tech being data privacy and security and whatnot.So I'm super excited about this conversation. So tell me a little bit more about Salinger Privacy what you guys do and where your clients operate? [00:02:13] Anna: Sure. So well basically we do all things privacy, so we do consulting, training, and we offer resources and one of the things I love about working in the Privacy space is It's just a fascinating intersection between law ethics and Technology. There's you know, there's always something new. There's always a new technology you coming around the corner that we have to get our heads around and help our clients manage that intersection between their Legal obligations ethics customer expectations and then you know what the technology can and what the technology should be allowed to do so, we work across as I said Consulting, training, and resources and we are an Australian business, we've got clients across Australia occasionally we dip our toe into the waters of New Zealand as well. But our clients come from their quite the mix. So, quite a lot of government clients but also businesses from the big end of town, to the nonprofits and also the small and very much Tech startup space.So we have clients everywhere from the kind of you know top ASX companies down to you know, one person's got a great new tech idea with working out of their spare bedroom at the moment kind of space. [00:03:28] Pete: Nice as to how much of it do you reckon is in that Health space? [00:03:34] Anna: Yeah health is really common as probably the second biggest sector after government. Although of course, you know often government is also in the health sector. So sometimes our clients will be the health service provider. So someone directly in that Health Service provision space and they just want to make sure they're dotting their I's crossing their T's in the way that they're collecting and using their patients data, but more typically where, not so much that direct service provision, but all the organizations that use and collect and hold and store health information. So sometimes that's insurance companies for example, sometimes it's governments working in public policy organizations getting into the data analytics space so focusing particularly on you know health and disability data for example, and then there's been some really big-ticket kind of projects we've worked on. So we worked on the Privacy impact assessment on the original design for My Health Record, back when it was originally called the Personally Controlled Electronic Health Record the original setup of the National Disability Insurance Scheme. So we've been involved in privacy impact assessments very early on in those very very big-ticket government projects which touch on health and disability data in particular. [00:04:55] Pete: So in health in particular then what are some of the biggest privacy concerns you see today that the pop-up. [00:05:02] Anna: So what I think is quite interesting about the health sector and it makes it different to other sectors is the health sector is a standout but in a bad way, unfortunately, so the health sector consistently tops the list of sectors reporting notifiable data breaches in Australia.So and when we talk about a notifiable data breach we're talking about when personal information has either been lost. Subject to unauthorized access or subject to an unauthorized disclosure [00:05:33] Pete: because it was those relatively recently wasn't it that want kind of recently that was something change that meant that companies needed to be more transparent with that kind of thing. [00:05:43] Anna: Yeah absolutely so the law was changed in February 2018. To make notification of it. So if you have this kind of data breach and if it's likely to result in serious harm to one or more individuals. It's now the law in Australia that you need to notify both price commissioner's office and those affected individuals, so your patient. [00:06:03] Pete: It's not just big companies or small companies. [00:06:05] Anna: So in the health sector at covers any health service provider regardless of their size. So you might be a one-person physiotherapy business, you know or an independent Locum you uncovered by the federal privacy act. So regardless of your size all Health Service Providers are covered. Outside the health sector, there is an exemption for small businesses. But that exemption does not apply to health service providers. So the health sector is already called out for I guess expectations of a high level of privacy protection for businesses no matter their size in the health sector just because of you know, patient's expectations. And so I think one of the things that makes the health sector different is patient expectations, so it's not that the type of privacy risks or privacy issues are different for health technology, for example, technology design as for any other type of Technology design, but the difference is that patients expectations about the protection of their Health Data are much higher. There's just this sort of intuitive if it's my health information. It must be kept absolutely private, but also the consequences of privacy breaches tend to be higher when you're talking about health information compared with say, you know, The Accidental disclosure of someone's credit card details. Yeah, there are some financial risks. But those risks can be resolved, you know relatively straightforward way. I don't want to minimize those risks, but it's quite a different story in terms of the repercussions individuals can face if their health information is disclosed without Authority. So that might be it could be discrimination embarrassment implications for their employment implications for insurance and all the rest. That's what makes the challenges for people working in technology into the health sector and technology so much higher not that as I said, not that. The nature of the Privacy risks themselves are terribly different. It's just that the expectations are higher and the consequences are worse if you have a data breach. [00:08:17] Pete: So you mentioned that you guys do privacy reviews. What is a privacy review exactly? [00:08:24] Anna: So we did two different kinds so one is called a privacy impact assessment and the other is generally called a privacy audit or a privacy compliance review and the difference really is where you're at in the design process for what we're reviewing. So if you are at the design stage of a new project new technology project, for example, we get in at the design stage and do what's called a privacy impact assessment. If you want us to review something that's already up and running. So your business as usual. We basically call that a privacy audit but regardless of which one of those we doing. We ask the same kind of questions and regardless of whether its the design of the software. It might be the design of a business process. It might be the design of a paper form. It doesn't have to be, you know, a high-tech project to need this kind of review. So regardless of the nature of the project we tend to ask the same questions so you know can and should we collect this data can and should we use it for this particular purpose who can we disclose it to? How do we keep it safe? So when we look at a new project, for example, we look at two broad things one is data flows and the other is data governance. So when what I describe as data flows what we're looking at is. What personal information is being collected? How is it going to be used? Who will it be disclosed to so those three points collection use and disclosure and for each of those we then ask is this going to be appropriate meaning is it going to be lawful? So is it going to comply with the Privacy principles that govern collection use and disclosure but not just is it going to be lawful? Is it going to meet your customers? You know your patients expectations. Is it going to be proportionate to a legitimate business need and is there critically, is there a more privacy-protective way you can achieve that business objective? Yeah, so always trying to come up with you know, helping our clients come up with the most privacy-protective design of a technology of a form of whatever it is but in a way that still achieves the businesses objectives. So once we've settled those questions about authorizing the data flows and making sure that there are lawful and appropriate then we look at data governance. So we usually start with looking at transparency. So have you communicated clearly to your customers about those data flows? You know how their personal information is going to be collected used and disclosed so that they actually understand what's going to happen. You know, I talk about the no-surprises rule no one likes to be surprised what's going to happen with their data and if they have if they're going to have choices is there a really easy way for them to manage those choices? You know, is it as straightforward as a swipe left or right on the app to say yes or no to something and one thing that's really important is in terms of transparency is for organizations to separate out what we see is three different things but often bundled together. So those three things are your privacy policy a collection notice explaining. At the point of collection what it is you're doing with the person's information and a consent mechanism if you're going to rely on consent, so those three things serve three quite different purposes, but especially online. The design practices often companies will jumble the three all together into one long legalistic confusing document and then they make users just tick agree [00:11:55] Pete: Tick a box and you can and you can click the link. Click the link to go read it that you it's not down the bottom. [00:12:02] Anna: Yeah, and we know no one ever reads it, I don't even read them. So we so in terms of data governance. We look importantly transparency. And then finally we look at other data governance questions, like have your staff being trained. Do you have a clear pathway for managing any requests you get for patients to access their data or correct it do you have a clear pathway for managing privacy complaints. Do you have a data breach response plan in place to your staff know what to do in the event of a data breach, so. All of those things that of data flows and data governance form part of whether we're doing a privacy impact assessment of a new project or a privacy audit of an existing business process and again, whether its software or something else, we look at both data flows and data governance as part of our privacy review. [00:12:53] Pete: And if I think about it from my experience. Often, you know, if I'm thinking as a health Tech vendor not many of them go out with any kind of massive intention on I don't know to steal patients information or doing something cynical with the data, but I've seen in the past two, it's not about the intention of what they're going to do with it, but it's almost the perception of what's going to happen or so having that kind of review or someone outside of the business to do that sounds like a pretty sensible thing to do. [00:13:23] Anna: Yeah, absolutely and certainly my experience having worked in you know, in a regulatory role in the primes Commissioner's Office the vast majority of privacy complaints and the vast majority of privacy breaches and data breaches are not coming from a point of malicious conduct or deliberately people doing the wrong thing. It's accidents and it's oversights and its people simply not understanding what their obligations are. Understanding that there are alternative ways to design things. So absolutely. Yeah. I very very rarely see privacy breaches arising from deliberate misconduct. Yeah. It's much more coming from a place of ignorance and sometimes people trying to do the right thing, you know trying to be helpful in trying to help the clients but accidentally doing the wrong thing. [00:14:20] Pete: Yeah, that can happen in health care too. Can you just send this across to me? I really need it because of this particular situation or something. Yeah. [00:14:27] Anna: Yeah. Absolutely. [00:14:28] Pete: It seems to be the right thing to do. It's a balance. So I'm thinking about that In our world AI artificial intelligence that's a big point of discussion regarding privacy for me anyway at the moment. How well do you think policies keeping up with the rate of pace of innovation in Australia more broadly as AI is really Innovative space and there are other things going on too, how's policy keeping up. [00:14:50] Anna: I think there's a constant challenge whether it's AI or any other kind of new technology. There's always this challenge of Law and policy keeping up. The first point I'd make is that privacy laws are designed deliberately. They're drafted deliberately to be technology-neutral and format neutral. So the idea is that they shouldn't actually be always playing catch-up. We've tried to anticipate in the drafting of our privacy laws technologies that haven't even been thought of yet and our starting point with those laws is Broad framed general kind of principles and it's all about respecting humans autonomy and dignity. So sort of one answer is the law is keeping up because it's it was already anticipating new technologies and that those new technologies should be being managed Under the Umbrella of existing laws and policies. But at the same time obviously the law is constantly being challenged in terms of how workable it is in practice and certainly with artificial intelligence the ethical and legal implications are something that not just in Australia but governments around the world are grappling with right at the moment. So there are projects trying to come up with legal and ethical frameworks to cover AI here in Australia the federal department of innovation and industries been working on something there are projects in the EU there are projects in the US There's a lot of activity going on at the moment and lots of those projects around the world are focusing on things like the fairness of AI as well as transparency. So in particular in Europe some of your listeners. May have heard of the GDPR are already. So that's a privacy law in Europe that was recently reformed the general data protection regulation and one of the reforms that was introduced is what you might call a right to algorithmic transparency. So that means that's kind of the laws way of trying to ensure that algorithms developed from AI from machine learning and from AI will be fair and accountable in terms of the impact of decision making that is made or decisions made based on those algorithms. So there's kind of a right to human review of computers decisions and there are rights to ask companies to pause or stop the processing and we would call that using or disclosing someone's personal information in order to ask for an explanation of well you know, how is this algorithm? Working so why you know, why was I denied health insurance or why is it why my premiums going up and my next-door neighbors are going down for example. [00:17:49] Pete: and its even more like as we're moving to space where artificial intelligence is assisting the process of Diagnostics and looks at an image and says this patient has cancer or not. You know that having that in a black box is not you know, and then just you know, let's ask the computer and wait to see what. Is it so much ambiguity there? [00:18:12] Anna: Yeah, absolutely. And in a legal sense, I think courts will increasingly struggle with this as well. If someone is challenging a decision, so it might not be the you know, the diagnosis but maybe it's the health insurers decision based on the diagnosis. You know, we're going to pay your claim or we're not going to pay your claim or whatever it is. You know based on some kind of calculation of risk of that disease developing for example, or you know, if the algorithm can't be explained to a court if it can't be explained to a judge. How is anyone going to be able to determine whether that algorithm was working in a fair and accurate way so one of the really critical privacy principles is it's called the data quality principle or the accuracy principle and it says that each of us has the right to ensure that only accurate relevant up-to-date complete not misleading information is used in decision-making about us and that obviously. Becomes more critical, you know the rubber hits the road where the decision is going to impact us negatively. So the decision is going to be you don't get the insurance or we don't pay your claim. You don't get the job. You don't get access to housing you don't get access to credit for example, and so if you've got decisions made in a black box and no one can explain how they're made because. Yeah, there was some machine learning going on in the AI system came up with its own algorithm. How can anyone test how can a court test whether or not that decision making and the data on which it was based was, you know accurate Fair relevant up-to-date Etc. So that's certainly one big challenge for AI that the sort of the transparency and the accountability for it and I think the other Big Challenge or the other area where AI poses a challenge in terms of compliance with Privacy Law is the lawfulness of the data flows in the first place. So, you know, it's when I was talking about when we do a privacy review we're looking at the data flows meaning what personal information is collected, how it's used who it's disclosed to and in the world of AI your ability to lawfully collect use or disclose data. It's extremely hard to rely on consent as your lawful mechanism consent isn't is by no means not this by no means the only lawful mechanism. There are lots of ways under the Privacy principles that allow companies and governments to collect use and disclose personal information. But quite often consent is what organizations try to rely on but in AI it's really challenging. So if you think about do you do example AI is being used to diagnose some health conditions? Yeah, much of the data. Used in the first place to train the machine learning that will create the AI will create the algorithm that training data what we call a training data will have been collected for some other purpose. So it will have been years worth of data collecting about real hospitals being treated in real patients being treated in real hospitals. That and that becomes the training data set for the machine learning. So it's fairly likely that the patients in the past were not asked to consent but that time to sometime in the future use of their data for this quite different purpose. [00:21:56] Pete: That's something that wasn't even thought of at the time. [00:21:59] Anna: So it's not just about treating you at some point in the future a machine will use your data to train another machine to recognize patterns in data, so but even now if we started to ask patients for their consent, you know as well as us treating you in hospital today. Do you consent to your information being used for AI development in the future? How could a patient today possibly give informed consent? Because the whole point of machine learning and AI is to kind of throw all the data in the mix and just see what pops out it's not a kind of if you like old-fashioned kind of you know, he's a research by hypothesis. This is the question we're asking here's exactly how we're going to conduct the experiment. Yes. So it's not like a clinical trial whereas a patient. I know what my disease is. I'm being offered a new kind of medicine. I've been warned about the possible side effects, and I've had the chance to say yes or no AI and machine learning at based on quite different kinds of research practices, which don't usually involve. That kind of one-on-one sit-down discussion with an individual. It's based on very very large data sets to create those training data sets. It's based on historical data. And typically you don't go back and you don't have the ability to go back and ask for everyone's consent. It's very difficult to rely on patient consent as the lawful basis for health information to be collected used or disclosed for AI purposes. As I said, it's not the only possibility but quite often companies work on the assumption that consent is going to be their legal mechanism and it turns out not to be.Kind of the pragmatic solution for them, but I don't think that that's something that's particularly. Well understood yet. [00:23:52] Pete: What is the solution then like if consent isn't it? Like how does a company doing AI in health or any area I guess operate? [00:24:01] Anna: so there are other legal mechanisms and one of them is and it depends, you know, which Privacy Law you're talking about which jurisdiction you're in but there's usually some kind of research exemption and that usually, again it differs kind of from state to state and federal and Country to country but the research exemptions usually have some role for human research Ethics Committee which gets to weigh up the ethical considerations. Think about where the public interest lies and that committee usually has the power to waive the requirement for consent. There is this kind of structured way to work through thinking about those issues and the National Health and Medical Research Council has guidelines on you know how to set up a human research Ethics Committee and what a properly constituted committee looks like and all of the factors that they need to, you know, there are guidelines about how they need to reach their kind of decision making, so it's not as simple as simply you know, those the tick a box mandatory terms and conditions. That's not going to constitute a valid consent in Privacy Law. So that's just not the right legal mechanism in the most in the majority of cases for artificial intelligence kind of development.  [00:25:25] Pete: Wow so much complexity to factor in and you can going through even just the tip of the iceberg of all of that you can see a lot of work underneath it and questions and kind of vagueness that kind of speak to the reasons why the rate of innovation moves so much faster than other areas that are important like Policy. That's really interesting. Hey look so moving on what should Australian health tech software vendors be most concerned about when developing a solution today then. [00:26:01] Anna: I think first of all make sure you're thinking about both your legal obligations and your customers expectations, you know, the law is by the law. I'm talking about the Privacy principles built into Privacy Law the law tries to codify your basic ethical obligations, but it really sets the minimum kind of standard and often your customers expectations will set a higher standard than just legal compliance. So legal compliance is obviously necessary, but it really should just be considered the minimum Baseline not the entire set of things that you need to think about. I mentioned before the role of consent is in reality quite fraught so if you are relying on your patients consent to do something with their health information you absolutely need to make sure that that consent is actually going to be valid under privacy law you know, it will hold up to scrutiny. So you can't under Privacy Law. You can't say that you're relying on a patient's consent if they actually had no choice to say. No, it has to be voluntary. It has to be informed it has to be specific So it can't be included in mandatory terms and conditions, for example, an opt-out model is not consent. For example, so as I said consent is not the only legal mechanism. There are plenty of other mechanisms. But if that's the one you're relying on you need to be really careful to get that right and another thing is to make sure that your technology has been designed with privacy in mind. So we talked about this concept of privacy by design which is all about baking your privacy controls into the design of systems from. The beginning rather than trying to you know retrofit them in later and I think well what I find usually is a lot of effort goes into the cybersecurity side of things, you know, keeping out the external Bad actors and that's obviously incredibly important but our particular kind of expertise and our skill set is focused more on the internal actors so when you are whether you're designing tech your configuring it implementing it you need to think about your customers but also about your staff or your trusted users your trusted insiders. So making sure that Tech is designed so that its staff or other authorized users only see the absolute minimum amount of personal information about your customers or your patients that they really need to do their job, you know, the legislation says that you have to do this a lot of people come back and say oh, we've got a code of conduct for our employees. We make the more sign it so that's okay. The law says that that is not enough and you know case law comes basically the law that comes from Court decisions and tribunal decisions backs that up that just having you know, letting all staff see all patient records but saying oh, but they signed a code of conduct that's not going to be enough You won't be complying with your privacy legal obligations if that's all you're doing. So you need the same things like role-based access controls, but there's a whole bunch of other privacy controls that can be built into Tech design and it will depend on the kind of product you're or service that you're designing But depending on what it is you're doing, you know, if you're if you've got a data analytics project and using a data warehouse, for example, we would look at filtering out certain data fields. And then we'd look at masking other data fields from the view of particular user groups. If you think about something like an E-health record system, you would limit the search functionality to prevent misuse, you know, the kind of scenario we're usually looking at is, you know, could a staff member look up health information about their partner or their ex-partner or their next-door neighbour so you might put in a test that users need to pass before they can even access customer records. For example, rather than just enabling any user to do a global search against any customer or patient name, so there's plenty of different things you can do. So we use 8 privacy design strategies to help guide Our advice to our clients when we're reviewing technology design software design and sometimes the solution lies in the design of their technology itself, but quite often it's outside the technology so the solution might be or a mix of you know, staff training policies and procedures back to that transparency issue. So how you communicate with your customers. There are lots of different angles we can come from when we're trying to mitigate privacy risks. [00:30:50] Pete: Wow there's a lot to cover I'm sure there are many people listening and thinking this probably a few things that could be applied in their business in the healthcare space, whether it's they're providing the service or the software that sits behind it. I think it's evident that it that it's something that's important to everyone from that single physio, you mentioned right through to the big organizations have got a lot more structure and process to handle this stuff and even they get it wrong a lot too. So having a dedicated focus in that like you guys is particularly interesting so Thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights on that particular topic. [00:31:30] Anna: Great. Thanks for having me on the show.  

Heirloom KitchenBy Anna Francese Gass Intro: Welcome to the Cookery by the Book Podcast with Suzy Chase. She's just a home cook in New York city, sitting at her dining room table talking to cookbook authors.Anna: Hi, this is Anna Francese Gass and my cookbook is Heirloom Kitchen: Heritage Recipes and Family Stories from the Tables of Immigrant Women.Suzy Chase: I don't think we as Americans acknowledge enough how the cooking traditions of immigrant women have left a legacy on the American palate. Talk a bit about how you've cooked with grandmother around the country to compile this cookbook.Anna: Yeah, I mean, I think it was kind of a aha moment for me as well. I grew up in an Italian home. My mother came over from Italy. I actually was with her. I was one years old, and my mother always cooked the food of her homeland and that's what I grew up eating. I was obviously very aware of American food. I loved "American Food" but in our house it's all those staples from the Italian kitchen because that's what my mother grew up eating. That's what she knew how to cook. What happened when I did the project and when I started it, I realized, but I guess I always ... We all kind of know this unconsciously, we just don't talk or think about it, but immigrants from all over the world that come here do that exact same thing. No one is coming over from China and starting to cook meatloaf and steak. They continue to make their homeland foods, and because these women did that, starting all the way back from when immigrations really began in this country, that's how we created this amazing diverse food landscape that we call American food.Anna: I mean, if you think about meatballs, okay yes, their origin is Italian and that's where the women learned how to make them, but when you go out and you have spaghetti and meatballs, I mean you can have that at almost any restaurant. I think spaghetti and meatballs is as American as apple pie, so to speak, but the reason that is, the reason we've accepted these things into our culture is because nobody stopped making those foods the minute they came over here into the US.Suzy Chase: So let's move on to the women who immigrated to the United States that are in this cookbook. What was the process of getting introductions to these 45 women?Anna: So what happened was so nice, is that it really spread word of mouth. The way the whole project started was I just wanted to get my mom's recipes written down. I'm a recipe tester by trade. That's what I do for my living. I do it primarily out of my home and I love my job, but I realized I didn't have any of my mom's recipes written down, none of those were standardized and I really wanted to cherish and keep those recipes forever. My mom still cooks when we go over on Sunday, so there was never that need to learn, but then I realized that there's gonna be a day that my daughter wants to know how to learn ... Excuse me. Wants to know how to make those recipes, or her daughter, and you know, my mother isn't always gonna be able to cook them. So we started as a project, a family project, and I created a family cookbook, and then I had a moment that I thought, "Wow. I have all these friends from all over the world, many first generation kids. This is a service I could provide. This would be a fun blog. This is something I could do as a hobby." So this all started out with just a blog.Anna: So I sent an email to literally every friend I had with a first generation background, and the response was overwhelming. Everyone said, "Oh my goodness. I want you to cook with my mom. I want these recipes recorded." It was like a service I was providing. I was getting to learn all these authentic homeland foods, and they were getting recorded recipes. Then they were all gonna go up on the blog so I could share them. Once the project started and my blog really took off, then word of mouth created the next opportunity. So I was cooking with Iraqi woman for example, and she said to me halfway through cooking, "You really need to cook with my friend [Sheri 00:04:19]. She's Persian. She makes the most amazing Tahdig. You need to know how to make that." She made that introduction, and so on and so forth. So it started with friends and then, like the last couple of women I cooked with, I didn't even know the children. It was just that word of mouth.Suzy Chase: It's so funny, I was gonna ask you if these recipes were hard to get, but it just seems like it was just effortless and it just happened.Anna: It just happened, and you know, it's so funny because people will say, "Oh, grandma's secrets." Or, "My grandma would always tell people the wrong ingredients or the wrong measurements because she didn't want anyone to make it just like her." Or, "This was secret." I didn't encounter that once. It was, "Let me share this with you, I want you to get it perfect. We can make it again." I mean, there were times that I had to follow up, because I'm in there with a pad and paper scribbling as they're throwing things in the pot, and then when I went home and recipe tested it, it's like, "Wait a minute. Was it, did this go first? Did that go first?" So sometime I'd call and say, "I just want to make sure I'm getting this right." And everyone was more than willing to just sit on the phone with me to make sure it was absolutely perfect, and these women were with me during the cookbook process too, because then a recipe tester has a question, or a copy editor has a question, and I don't know if it was luck, but I came across the most generous women I could've ever encountered.Suzy Chase: What's one new tip that you learned from a grandma you met along the way? Maybe a life tip or a cooking tip.Anna: Wow, there's a lot. I feel like I learned so much in each kitchen. I learned first of all, I should probably take a step back. Once I went to the first home, it was a Greek woman Nelly in Long Island. We start making her pastitsio, her Greek dishes, and just by accident I said, "Hey Nelly, why did you come to the US?" And she just started telling me her immigration story, and while she was telling me this story, I'm thinking about how it's similar to my mom, or different, but the threads are the same, and I thought to myself, "This is just as important as the recipe, because why she came here and how this all came about is so important to just our historical oral knowledge of all these women." So I started writing down immigration questions before I went to the next appointment, because I wanted to know exactly why each women came here, and the stories were dynamic, and incredible, and inspiring, and that ended up going up on the blog too.Anna: Just the fact, if you think about when you go on a trip today, right? You go on trip advisor, you ask you mom friends, you do all these different things before you head out, so that when you show up at your location destination, you're an expert. These women didn't have that. There was no world wide web, there was no cellphone, pictures or whatever. They just packed their bags and went. One of the women said to me, because [inaudible 00:07:31], "What made you do it? What made you get up one day and say, 'You know what? I'm leaving everything I know. I'm leaving my family, I'm leaving my friends and I'm going to this mysterious place to start a new life.'" And she said, "You know, what people from the US don't realize is the US is so enchanting. When you're not from here and you think about The United States Of America, there's a dream there. There's a dream to be had." And I just found that so special, and I think as Americans it's something that we should embrace and understand that we're so lucky to be here, and it's why other people want to come.Anna: So just that tenacity, that courage, I just found so inspiring.Suzy Chase: So in Heirloom Kitchen, it's organized with the recipe, a story, and a lesson. Talk a little bit about that.Anna: When I went in and I was pitching cookbooks to all the different editors at all the different publishers, that was very important to me. I said, "I understand I'm sitting here. I am proposing a cookbook to you, but I think the only way that this is really gonna work and is really gonna be as special as I want it to be is if we also share the women's immigration story, because I think that's half the story." I'll tell you, when I'm making the recipes, I think about the women and I think about their story. I learned a whole bunch of different cooking techniques, for example the Palestinian women taught me how to make Maqluba, and Maqluba means, in Arabic means upside down. So it's this rice dish that you make in a pot and then at the end, when it's all done, you literally flip it upside down and you take it out of the pot and you're left with this mold, and I will tell you, I made a couple of that, did not work, but phone calls back and forth, I figured out how to do it and it's so satisfying when you turn this pot upside down and this beautiful, delicious, rice dish comes out.Anna: So I just think that the book is what it is because you are getting the lessons and the stories, and the recipe all broken down for you, and obviously categorized by continent.Suzy Chase: Your mother is in this cookbook. I found it interesting that she wanted nothing to do with pre-packaged frozen dinners that were the rage when we were growing up, and they were supposed to make our mom's lives easier.Anna: Yeah. I have the chicken pot pie story in there because I think it's quintessential immigrant mother lure. I think that it's very funny and I think that a lot of people will also really relate to it. Yes, I mean, when we were kids all I wanted was a Marie Callender's chicken pot pie. I watched the commercial, it looked so delicious, and why did I have to eat this Italian food every night when I all wanted was this chicken pot pie? So she relented and bought it, and cooked it incorrectly because she didn't read the directions. She just kinda threw it in the oven and that was the end of our chicken pot pie, but I think for my mother, and especially, it's hard to make generalization, but for at least the women that cooked with, the immigrant women that I cooked with, is they value the food that they create so much that the pre-packaged ready in five minute meals, what you were saving in time, it wasn't enough.Anna: It wasn't enough for them to say, "Okay, you know what? Forget my stuff, I'm just gonna do this." And it's funny, the women from Ghana told me that there were times her daughter would say to her, "Mom, we want to take you out to eat tonight. Let's just go out. We don't want you to cook. Let's just relax." And her mom's like, "No. I'd much rather eat my food. I don't need restaurant food." And I laughed when she told me that 'cause my mom doesn't like going out to eat either.Suzy Chase: Really?Anna: So funny. I think it's a common thread because there's so much pride in what they're creating, and it does keep them tethered to their homeland, which is still so very special to them. The cover of the book is my mom making Tagliatelle, which is a hand-cut Italian pasta, and I watched my grandmother make them, and obviously my mom grew up watching her mother make them, and when my mom makes Tagliatelle, we think about my grandmother who is obviously now past, but it's just so nice to have that memory and eat food that tastes exactly like how my grandmother used to make it.Suzy Chase: The story that you told about your mom really shows that she viewed her new American identity as an extension of her Italian identity.Anna: Yes. Absolutely. I think when they came here, these women, right? They were very brave, and they learned English, and I talk about my mom getting her citizenship and going to ESL classes to become an American. That's very important to them and they're proud to be American, but they also needed to create kind of like a safe haven. You go out in the world, you have an accent, you're an immigrant, everyone knows that, so when you come home at night, what's gonna make you feel safe? What's gonna make you feel comfortable? It's your food. The minute you start cooking and the meatballs are bubbling, or you have the rice cooking, or whatever it is that you made back in the homeland that you're now making here, food transports you. I can get transported to the past just as much as it gives you energy to catapult you into the future.Suzy Chase: I think my very favorite photo is on the inside page of the cookbook. It's the one of the hands forming either ravioli or some sort of dumpling. It's fascinating how you're drawn, how I was drawn, to this woman in the photo. Is that your mom?Anna: No. So that is Tina, and she is making traditional Chinese dumplings, and she makes everything from scratch and then she just sits there and pleats all these dumplings and they all look exactly the same and they're perfect. What I love about ... But first of all, my photographer Andrew Scrivani was just a genius. He is a genius and he does a lot of work for The Times, and it's because he's so wildly talented, but his whole thing was, "I want to see hands." This is food that you make with your hands. Nobody pulled out a food processor, nobody used their Kitchenaid. It was rolling pins, hands, mixing spoons. I had women using mixing spoons that they literally brought over from their country. They hold up a spoon and say, "This spoon is 45 years old." But that's the food of our grandmothers, right? They didn't have all these gadgets. They weren't sous vide, they weren't hot pot. So that was very important in the cookbook, to have a lot of hands, and I'm so happy that you were drawn to that photo because it is so tangible, right? Like you feel like you're standing right next to her while she's pleating these dumplings.Anna: She told me that, so they make Chinese dumplings every New Year, and what I love about this story is, she said that the women would get up, and they make the filling, and they make hundreds of them. So all the women in the neighborhood would come together and sit down and while they're pleating the dumplings, they gossip. So it'd just be a totally gossip day making [crosstalk 00:15:14] for dinner.Suzy Chase: I love it. On Saturday I made the recipe for tomato sauce with meatballs on page 25. Was this your grandmother's recipe?Anna: Yes. To be honest with you, it was probably my great-grandmother's recipe. My mother also spent a lot of time with her maternal and paternal grandmothers, and they all had the same techniques to make all these different dishes. So yes, the Brodo di Mama, which is mom's tomato sauce, and the Polpette, which is meatballs, come from a very long line of women. My grandmother did a couple things that were different. One, as you know, she uses some of the sauce in the meatball mixture, which we feel makes them very tender, and there's no pre-frying or pre-baking, which I know a lot of people do. These meatballs just get simmered right in the sauce, which not only does it eliminate a step, once again, we think it makes a very light and airy meatball.Suzy Chase: At the very beginning of this recipe you steep garlic, basil and olive oil. I feel like this is like the magical secret ingredient to this dish.Anna: Yes. By creating, and almost kind of liking it to a T, because you're infusing this olive oil at a very low temperature to kind of marry all of those delicious ingredients, so that once you ultimately strain the garlic and the basil out, you're left with a very aromatic olive oil, which is the base of the sauce. Now, my grandmother was obviously a trend setter in her day because now you can buy so many infused olive oils.Suzy Chase: What do you tell people who see a recipe, or who will see a recipe in this cookbook, and think, "That's not how my mother makes it."Anna: Oh, I'm so glad that you asked that question, and actually, if you read the very beginning of the book, I do address that because I think we play a lot nowadays with the word authentic, I know you probably hear that word all the time.Suzy Chase: All the time.Anna: And you know, what really is authentic? How could we really put our finger on that, right? So what I'm saying is these are my mom's meatballs. She's from Calabria, it's very similar to the way in her mom's village probably made them, but you know when you get in the kitchen, that's your recipe, and you might, your husband might not like garlic, or your son doesn't like the pinch of hot pepper flakes so you eliminate that. So I think, what I would love this book to do for people is kind of like the way I look at any cookbook or even food magazine, is use it as a jumping off point. Let it stimulate in you those memories of your grandmother. So let's say for example you're Greek and you buy this cookbook because you want to know how to make Spanakopita, and then when you get to it you said, "Wait a minute, my grandmother didn't use cottage cheese, she used ricotta." Or whatever it is, but it gets those creative juices flowing, it gets those memories flowing, and that's what I really want this to do.Anna: I do want you to try the recipes in the book. They are phenomenal, they are delicious, they're grandma's greatest hits, because everyone gave me theirs best dishes, but don't fret if it's not just like your grandmother, because your grandmother was special and she made things her way, just like these grandmothers made it their way and hopefully it just creates a new, that nostalgia for the homeland foods.Suzy Chase: Grandma's greatest hits. I love that. I think the main sentiment in this cookbook is maintaining the culture of our origin countries was not a statement, it simply created the comfort of home in a new place. I think we all deserve the comfort of home.Anna: Absolutely, and I think whether you're cooking a recipe from Poland, or literally you're just making your kids some brownies after school, I think that that's what food does for us. Food is the one thing that we all had in common. No matter who you are, how important, everyone has to eat, right? So it's this common thread amongst every single person on the planet, and it does provide comfort. When you're hungry, all you want to do, all you think about is what you're gonna eat. I know for my kids, the things that I make that they feel are very special, or when I'm eating something in mom's house in a Sunday that she made when I was a little kid and I can think about those days. It's why I think the term comfort food was created, right? Because food provides comfort.Suzy Chase: Now to my segment called my last meal. What would you eat for your last supper?Anna: I think going on what I just said, I think my last meal would have to be something that my mom cooks for me, because when I'm eating something that my mom made, I know that that bowl of food is not only just filled with nutrients and everything I need physically, there is so much there emotionally for me, and it's filled with her love and her care, and everything that she wants me to have. One of the women that I cooked with said, "A mother is full when the children have eaten." And I think about that every day because I think that's the most important gift our mother give us, is nourishment and the memories of our childhood through food.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?Anna: My website is annasheirloomkitchen.com and I'm very active also on Instagram, and I'm at @annafgass. So at A-N-N-A, F as in Frank, G-A, S as in Sam, S as in Sam.Suzy Chase: Heirloom Kitchens shows us that America truly is the land of opportunity. Thanks Anna for coming on Cookery by the Book Podcast.Anna: Thanks Suzy. This was great.Outro: Follow Suzy Chase on Instagram @cookerybythebook, and subscribe at cookerybythebook.com or in Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening to Cookery by the Book Podcast, the only podcast devoted to cookbooks since 2015.

Are you an HSP? An empath? Just feeling overwhelmed and like you're "doing life bad"? You're going to love this interview with Anna Holden. Anna Holden is a professional intuitive, energy healer and spiritual teacher. She mentors burgeoning psychics and healers in her professional training program, The School for Sacred Rebellion. She also runs The Refuge for Sacred Rebellion, a spiritual enlivenment platform for highly sensitive people, and she hosts The Soul of Sensitivity podcast, a show that explores the intersection of sensitivity and spirituality. WE TALK ABOUT: clairsentience and empathy highly sensitive people as an indicator species reclaiming the sacred self This is not your run of the mill conversation about being a psychic sponge and carrying the weight of the world around with you and being burdened with everyone’s ugly shit. Anna refers to herself as a "sensitive revolutionary" ... and she has a whole different empowering angle on this topic. MENTIONED ON THE SHOW Anatomy of the Spirit by Caroline Myss Heidi Frank Palmer https://subtlebodysolutions.com/ GUEST LINKS - Anna Holden sensitivityuncensored.com Soul of Sensitivity podcast Anna's Free Guide You Are a Goddamn Magical Unicorn The Refuge for Sacred Rebellion The School for Sacred Rebellion HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Anna: I'm Anna and I work with people who are highly sensitive, empathic, intuitive, and usually these people find me because they're overwhelmed. So I work specifically with people who are highly sensitive to help them develop their intuitive channels and strengthen their sense of sensitivity so it's not overwhelming them, and that they're able to work with it. I see that, I mean, I really see sensitivity and being an empath as a really huge gift that we're not given any tools around, any sort of know-how around, so I kind of create a structure and a language to be able to work with those things. And I do that one-on-one, I do that in my membership group, and I do that in different courses and an intuitive school that I'm working on. Slade: Very cool. I want to come back a little bit and talk sort of about your manifesto, and the whole thing about sensitivity in particular how you kind of relate that to everything. That's something I want to dive in a little bit deeper on. One of the things I'm interested in - I've been asking a lot of people this, so I'm going to ask you - when you meet someone for the first time in real life and they ask you what you do, what do you say? Anna: Oh Jesus. You know, it really - it's funny, because I listened to the episode that you're referencing and I'm like, 'I'm taking notes', because this is something that I still struggle with, you know? It really depends. Sometimes I tell people I'm an intuitive. If I feel pretty comfortable with people I'll tell them I'm an intuitive. If it's somebody who is just totally out of this realm, I'll call it, sometimes I'll say that I have a healing arts practice. Sometimes I will say that I work with people who are highly sensitive to help them manage overwhelm. Those are usually the three places I will go, but I find it, I really find it a struggle. And for me, it's the sense of, how much do I - or it's kind of this battle between how much can I own about what I do and how much is actually going to get in and how much is safe in this situation? Slade: Yeah, well, and you know what? Also, some people ask that question very politely with the expectation that they're probably going to get a boring answer. Anna: Mmhmm! Slade: You know, like, 'I work as a clerk in a shipping department', or whatever. And sometimes people, just to be polite, might ask a bit of follow-up questions, but most people, myself included, when I ask somebody what they do, they may tell me and I'm like, 'Oh, okay, cool!' And I just kind of gloss over it and move on with the conversation. So I think that we feel especially under-the-gun about our identity in some way that we're projecting onto the situation a little bit. But I do, you know, I live in the Bible belt, so I don't walk around calling myself a psychic to every stranger that I meet. But I will say that I have learned, over time, more and more, how many people DO get me, and DO like what I do, and sometimes I'm pre-judging them and thinking, 'Oh, they're probably super conservative and traditional, and this would wig them out.' And then I find out later that they're not at all. And then I feel like as ass for, you know... being weird about it. Anna: Oh, I so resonate with that! Because sometimes, I've said this before, particularly in the early parts of my practice, where I was like, I feel like the witch on the edge of town that everybody goes to but nobody talks about. Slade: Yes! Anna: Where it's like, sometimes yeah, I'll tell people I'm a psychic and they'll come up to me later on and be like, 'I really want to know more. I just feel really drawn to knowing more.' And it's always kind of funny when that happens, that there is an opening. Oftentimes people are really searching for this, and particularly people who are more conservative often are really, you know, looking for some of this and when - we can create an opening for curiosity, I suppose. Slade: Well and another weird full-circle thing that I've discovered is that sometimes people of religious faith, even though I think, 'Oh, they're really traditional in their faith', people of faith generally are more open to conversations about faith. They're more open to the subject matter of supernatural phenomenon. They believe in angels and guides and archetypes and deities and all this kind of stuff actually. So sometimes they're weirdly open minded about the metaphysical part of it, almost a part that the intellectual crowd would dismiss us for. Sometimes the little old ladies who go to church every day, they're the mystical one. They're totally like down-low witches, you know what I mean? Anna: Totally! Yeah, you know, the way that I relate that is, so I grew up in Utah in Mormon country and my - I was not raised Mormon, but my mom's family is very Mormon. I think she's the only of her eight other siblings that left the Mormon church. So when we go to family reunions, there's always been this like, you know, we kind of get very reserved and we stop cussing. There's just not a lot, besides traffic and weather, that we talk about. But I was really surprised in that - and I feel kind of bad that I was surprised, like not putting as much, kind of faith in these cousins, particularly a couple of women that I grew up with, where we had this fantastic conversation about sensitivity and energy and different energy tools to help her sensitive kids and she was so open to all that, and a very, very devout, religious person. And I realized, wow, that is MY prejudice. That was ME getting in the way of what turned out to be this really beautiful exchange. Slade: Yeah, that's very cool. So obviously you didn't always identify as a professional intutiive or as a psychic new age person, so how did you become one? Anna: Oh gosh, yeah. What's kind of interesting is that I was a scientist first. I have a Bachelors degree and a Masters degree, Slade, in science. In conservation science and environmental science and really, I kind of chalk that up to I'm-really-interested-in-nature. I'm really... I find so many answers in nature and I realized recently - not recently but I've realized over the years that I really have an intuitive, you know, I have intuitive telepathic conversations when I'm in nature. That was kind of the place that I lived - in this very analytical, very scientific place. But on the other side of that, I was always seeking, and, you know, growing up in Utah as a non-Mormon, where everybody (I did a whole podcast on this) everybody that I was around. The town that I was in was a huge percentage Mormon, I think, in the '80s, 80% Mormon. So pretty much all the people that I went to school with had this really strong sense of relationship with God that included a lot of rules and books and, just things I didn't have, but I was really interested in having a relationship with something higher because I saw spirits and animal spirits and all kinds of things. And so, in my early twenties, I started exploring that kind of on the side. I started - well, after I went to college, I started studying. I studied some reiki, I studied qigong, I read the Tao Te Ching, I dabbled in Buddhism, just trying to find a sense of connection and along the way, when I was Colorado (I had taken a year off of school to follow a guy, ahem) I met this great community of intuitives like, the first psychics that I've ever met, and had really ground-breaking, earth-shaking experiences of validation, of really feeling seen for the first time in my life. And it gave in me a sense of direction that I had never really had before. So, over the years, I continued dabbling in meditation and different energy healing arts and it was funny because I think at that time in my early twenties, I read my first Caroline Myss book, the Anatomy of the Spirit, and I was like, 'Ohmygosh. This is so cool. I totally want to do this.' But thinking that it was really out of reach, you know, believing that it's something you're born with or you're not and... Eventually, in my mid-twenties, I asked the main intuitive that I worked with, 'Hey, do you think I could do this?' And she just, she kind of laughed, you know? She was like, 'Ohmygosh, Anna. Of course you can do this!' And so I just started taking some basic energy management meditation classes and then eventually decided to join a full clairvoyant training program. And clairvoyant, I mean, clairvoyance, you've said this on your podcast, where it's like clairvoyance is the only thing people are teaching which I totally agree with that. And for me, it was really helpful because I am very clairsentient, in a way that's actually kind of damaging and hard on my body. So learning to be clairvoyant was really helpful, and I actually then didn't right go out into the world and get readings, or to give readings rather. I had to, I kind of was very type-A, I had to get all the certifications first and studied yoga and ayurveda and stuff. That's the general story. I then eventually, when I moved to Seattle about six years ago, I was going to set up as an ayurvedic practitioner and the laws in Washington are a lot stricter than where they were when I was living in California. I was like, Crap! I can't set up as an ayurvedic practitioner. Well, I guess i'll just give readings then. So I feel like I kind of fell into being a professional psychic but that was definitely the place where I was supposed to be. Slade: Mmm... By the way, your website is called SensitivityUncensored.com, if anybody's listening and they want to kind of look at you and check out your site while we're talking, because there's so much about the personality. The imagery on your site, the language on your site, that really drew me in. And seeing some of that, I immediately connected with you and couldn't help but feel that you must've been motivated to create something in a response to all that goody-goody that's out there that I sort of feel like I try to respond to as well. So I was wondering, what motivated, just kind of the vibe of your site and the concept? Anna: Yeah, oh that's great. That's part of the reason why I was drawn to you, Slade, it was the less hearts and flowers. So I was like, 'Oh, thank God.' Someone else, you know? Slade: Yeah! Anna: Well there's a couple things. First actually, was that I recognized that the clients, the highly sensitive clients I was attracting, one of the real challenges they had was this real sense of seriousness, that everything was so serious. And, like you know what happens when we get serious all the time. Our energy shuts off. It stops flowing, you know? So part - so they learned, working with me, that we're not going to be super serious. We're going to go through important, difficult stuff and we're not going to do that in a life or death, with a life or death energy, you know? We're going to go through a little bit more lighthearted so that we can stay just above and work with what's there. So that was the first thing. The second reason is that I had, before that, kind of pigeon-holed myself with my previous website as like, the perfect healer. I think you know what I'm talking about. It was really annoying, Slade, my website. And I think about it now, I cringe. It's like when you are in the year 2000 with a 1981 haircut. You're like, 'Oh, that should have been updated.' So I had felt like I had created this pressure for myself to show up perfectly, which is like, I'm nowhere near perfect, and it just wasn't the vibe that I actually worked from. So the website was a bit of a 'coming out' in a way for me, being like, 'Hey, yeah i'm a healer and I do things really, really differently.' And then kind of the third thing is, I have avoided for years calling myself psychic because I don't tend to like a lot a lot of the psychic community, kind of that new-age vibe because it's like the Law of Attraction and that's all that exists. Which, like, I just want to vomit a little with that, and I see a lot of clients getting really hung up on some of these new age principles that have been spun really poorly, taught really poorly, kind of from a, I like to call it, Puritanical way, where it's like, 'I did everything right. Why isn't the Universe giving me what I want?' And i'm like, okay well we just kind of - that's not how it works! Slade: There's a kind of fundamentalism that has crept in to it all. Anna: Exactly! Yeah! Slade: Yeah. I totally know - well, I have to say, in keeping with kind of lightness and the vibe of your site when people first land on it, they'll know what I'm talking about. You have to go check this out because I honestly kind of felt like, and I don't mean this to sound in any way like you're smaller than me or less mature, something like that, but I felt like you were like my little sister who I thought of as being like an elementary school kid who suddenly got really cool and turned punk rock over the summer, and I was like, 'Wait a minute!' And I looked at you and I was like, 'Oh wait, she's cooler than me!" And it felt like something I did respond to, you're right. The less hearts and flowers thing. But you had it dialed up in a way that was particularly feminine, I think, but in a badass kind of way, you know, like a babydoll punk kind of vibe. There's something kind of retro '90s grunge about it. I don't know how to put words on it but it was really refreshing and exciting to me to see that, and I do think that you're in a safe space, talking to this group of people who follow me or listen to this podcast. They will totally get you and they will appreciate it and they will laugh in all the right places and be excited. Anna: Right, right. Slade: But you have this manifesto and again, the language that you use, everything is very, kind of, cool and grounded and kind of in your face in a good way that kind of wakes you up. But it's not trying too hard. It feels very natural. It feels, like you said, you came out of some pristine kind of shell that you were trying to be in, and sort of let it all out and, you know what it is? It's like a cool, it's like a cool hair cut. You know, like when you cut all your hair off and you dye it blonde, which I know that you recently did. Anna: Yes! Hahaha... Slade: It's like your site kind of feels like the spiritual 'coming out' version of that. Like, I'm going to go into the bathroom and I'm gonna shave my head and then I'm gonna come out and be like, raccoon eyeliner watch out. Anna: Yeah. Slade: But having said all that, that definitely is like a, WHAT? You know, like it made me stop in my tracks and want to come in. But then when I started to read your actual manifesto, kind of your About page, about where you're coming from and everything, there's some real depth and philosophical originality going on here. So, I want you to kind of talk to me about this concept of Sacred Rebellion, and it's clear from your domain name, Sensitivity Uncensored, that there's this relationship between highly sensitive people and then this concept of rebellion. Explain all that to us. What is that manifesto? Anna: Yeah, absolutely. So I, you know that when I wrote the manifesto, I mean, that comes straight from inside. I feel every word of that manifesto. It wasn't something, when I created my website, that I was like, and then I will have a manifesto! It was like, one day I was like, I have a manifesto! And it must be written! And... I think this is actually where my science background comes in, because something that I observe about the people I work with, people who are sensitive, who are empathic, who are intuitive, we have so many answers for the problems that are plaguing the world. I mean, we are like, I liken this in science to the indicator species, you know? A way you could say that more commonly is, the canary in the coal mine. We can, we feel what's happening. We have a knowingness about what's happening when we're clear. Sometimes we see, we hear, and we receive tremendous amounts of guidance. I really believe that there's a critical place for sensitive, empathic, intuitive people on the planet, and that we currently have a culture that is not set up to recognize our gifts. Nobody is going to step aside for that to happen right? That has to come from us claiming our space, finding our power and our place, wherever we want that to be. I'm not saying we all need to get on the front lines and be social justice warriors or something, you know? But coming into our power and having enough personal sovereignty to do our thing in the world. No matter if that's, you know, being a professional psychic or being a really good interior designer, or an artist that just moves people. I just feel like it's so important. And so, the Sacred Rebellion is that claiming. The Sacred Rebellion has two parts. First, it's about personal practices and personal tools that help us come to a place of spiritual and personal sovereignty, where we are much more able to clearly able to discern between what is our STUFF to deal with and what is the stuff of someone else or the world. Basically being able to discern between energies, right? So that we can do US. That's the first part of Sacred Rebellion. It's a re-claiming, a claiming, remembering. The second part, and I think this is so critical, is the 'so that'. We do that work - SO THAT - we can be in this greater world, earth, doing our part, for humanity, the earth, consciousness, whatever. So, and you pointed this out, so much of my work is really grounded because I believe it has to be. If we really want to change the situation of the planet and really help, you know, human consciousness raise up or, however you want to, however you want to talk about that goal. So, again, the Sacred Rebellion is about doing those two things and doing them in community with other highly sensitive, empathic, intuitive people. I mean, I think I've heard you said, Slade, sorry, you had said, Slade, that, you know, we're spread out, as intuitives. You have that theory we're not all bunched together, and how isolating that is. Slade: Mmhmm. Anna: And I'm like, 'Okay! Let's group up!' Like, we need community, so that's where my Refuge for Sacred Rebellion is that place where we come together and do this. Slade: Yeah, talk about, a little bit about this. It's kind of a program, right? Or it's, I mean, it's a community. You explain what it is, the Refuge for Sacred Rebellion. Anna: Yeah. The Refuge for Sacred Rebellion - it's a membership group. It's a place for highly sensitive, or sensitive souls, empaths, intuitives, others, people who have felt 'othered', to come into community with other highly sensitive empathic psychic others. And I co-lead this with a woman named Heidi Frank Palmer, and she was a long-term client/student of mine who's right up with me, and we are co-leading the space. What we, our goals for this space is, are to create a real sense of community. To provide ample opportunity for us to get to know each other, to share what's happening for us daily and where we're at in our stories. We do this through a Facebook group. We also have monthly discussion calls about different subjects that are either guided by us or guided by other members. Basically the things that creative people struggle with. Like, we break it down. We have what we call 'office hours', kind of stealing something from my college professors, where we kind of hang out online, and if you want to, you can come and ask us questions and get advice as part of the group. And then, twice a year, I teach the Fundamental Tools for my School for Sacred Rebellion and intuitive development Program, and this was, these are a set of tools that I created and originally was calling, 'Sensitive Self-Defense'. It's like spiritual hygiene for sensitives. It's a bunch of meditation tools that really help us take those first steps to getting spiritually sovereign. I used to sell this course for so much money and whatever, and now it's just like, you're in the Refuge, you'll get these tools. Twice a year, we go through it together. You can join us. You can not join us. They're available within the membership area of the website so you can refresh, or work through, at your own pace. Basically we are trying to create a place where you can come, you know, come together and go through this experience of being a sensitive, creative, intuitive soul on this planet at this time. Slade: Hmm, okay. I was hoping that you would have some advice for sensitive people. You kind of touched on that idea of the first thing that you need to do, that kind of sensitive self-defense, and I encounter people who refer to themselves as HSP, Highly Sensitive People, empaths. One of the first things that I teach everyone who comes into my intuitive training is a different kind of shielding technique that's not just a, you know, wall of white light and bleach. It's like, it's too much, you know. I always tell people there's a difference between a blindfold and sunglasses. Anna: Yes, yes! Slade: So what are some tips you have for someone - because the thing about people who are empathic and highly sensitive is, they're the most likely to be shut down. They're the most likely to have walls. They're the most likely to be like, so withdrawn within themselves that they're not seeking, they're not reaching for this stuff like some of us are. So when you encounter one of those people, and you're kind of triaging that highly sensitive empath, and you need to give them a pair of sunglasses instead of a blindfold, what do you advise? What's the first thing to do? Anna: Such a great question. So, the thing that I notice about these people, I mean, this is everyone I work with, is that, I mean, rightly so, they're inside themselves, right? Because the world is fucking harsh. So I just see no judgment in that. They've been doing what they learned to do to protect themselves, you know? Good job. Now it's not working so let's do something else, right? So, what I notice is that HSP, what they do is they eject. Like, their aura usually, not always, but usually the first thing I see clairvoyantly when a HSP comes at me is, they're not in their body. Slade: Mmm... Anna: Because their body is painful. It's too painful to be in their body. It's scary. It's over-whelming. There's so much sensation, you know? So they're just like, I'm ejecting into the spiritual, the theoretical space that is so much easier for me to be in. So before I actually offer sunglasses, and I used to do this, Slade, I used to just offer protection first, and it didn't work for HSP. Slade: Okay. Anna: Because for them, what I find, is they've got to get grounded first. Slade: Okay. Anna: They HAVE to be in their body. So that stuff actually, the first thing that I give them is, I teach them how to create a really dynamically solid grounding cord I'll call it. So it's not like you're stuck to your chair, you know, but it's a way to plug in and to really fill up the space of your body. And then after that, I offer actually a little bit of like, I call it 'turning on the tap', how do you then get nourished with air and water, now that you're in your body, and then I give protection. Because I think about it like, I think about protection kind of like the alarm system of a house. Right? And say this alarm system works like, will only protect if you and all your shit is in your house. You know what I mean? If they're not in their bodies, then what's the alarm system doing, you know? Slade: Mmm... Anna: That's kind of what I, that's how I explain it at least. And this is just came from me working with THIS population for so long, that I was like, Why isn't a protection working? Oh. Because they're not there. Slade: I had an image come to me while you were speaking. I'm just going to share it, that for me, I had this kind of fitness image come in, which was the idea that without core strength, you're not really in a position to work a bunch of kung fu and martial arts, you know what I mean? Anna: Haha.. Totally! Slade: You can't throw a punch if you don't have a strong core. You can't spin around and kick someone in the face if you don't have balance, you know what I mean? You can't put all these muscles on top of something that doesn't have a centre. Which I think, in general, is a lot of what, when people call themselves spiritual seekers or they're working on all these tools and all this stuff, I often find that they're orbiting the body... Anna: Yes! Slade: ...playing with all this stuff that's kind of like in the upper chakras and you've heard me talk about this and the whole idea of re-booting, re-grounding energy and working back up again if you feel like you're frazzled or fried or whatever. But that's coming to me as a part of this picture of what you're describing, like, it doesn't make sense for you... like, you gotta be in your body first before you can manage the kind of shell of energy. Anna: Well, absolutely. I mean, for most HSP, this is our natural tendency, to take up space in the upper chakras at kind of the expense of the lower. And this, then, just generally makes us feel like we do life bad. Slade: Yes! Anna: You know? Most people who are not sensitive and empathic, you know, no judgment on that, but they naturally tend to just hang out in their lower chakras, so it's like, easy to get a job, and kind of easy to make money and they're not too worried about what their Spirit's doing, you know? It's just like, it's basic. And then, HSP we're all up in our upper chakras going like, why can't I get a job that I like? Like, why... Slade: Yes... Anna: Why is this... And it's like, Yeah! There's a gift about occupying those upper chakras. And, you do have a body. And, you don't have to occupy those lower chakras in the same way that everyone else does. So let's find a way to occupy them that, you know, really resonates and validates who you are as a Spirit. Slade: Yeah, it's like your Wifi isn't going to work if the little box isn't plugged in to the wall. Anna: Yes! I love that - that's totally it. Yes. Slade: Yeah, and the thing is, is like, when I talk about people doing that, and I do talk about it because I see it in clients and I see it in myself. There's been this ongoing theme this year where I keep returning to real basic stuff about the body and wellness, and nutrition, and simple fitness. And the thing is, is I don't think that any of that stuff has to be complicated. I think, actually, everyone's impulse is to over-complicate it by a bunch of outfits and special shoes and like, go for a marathon and, I mean it's good to have goals and stuff but I think that if you are sort of working in all those upper chakras and they're not working right for some reason, like you said, I feel like I'm doing this wrong, then look at really simple grounding. Do you walk around outside? Anna: Yes! Slade: Do you feel sunlight on your eyelids? That creates a vitamin in your body, you know? And getting back to your, sort of, I want to say it's kind of neo-pagan, in a way, like the way that you connect from your science background in conservation and ecology back to the sort of you know, earth as life force as a living entity, all that kind of stuff. So there's that connection to it as well, and that's really simple, basic, animal, like you said, lower chakra kind of stuff to work on. And we're all guilty of it. Anna: Oh, yeah. Slade: I mean, I spend most of my time trying to climb up in my third eye and balance on my divine crown all day long and, you know, all this kind of stuff and, you know, everything from the heart chakra up is like getting all this attention and it was a real life-changer for me when I was forced to rebuild my body, first with yoga, and then on some other kinds of fitness. But it came out of a really, like, ohmygod, I had surgery, and my core muscles had been cut into and I had to rebuild my basic strength and I did that after doing all the psychic stuff. So I don't want anybody to think that you can't be perfectly great psychic if you've got, you know, if you're chubby and you're working on it, it's okay. You can still do all this stuff. Anna: Oh, god, yeah! Slade: I used to do all this stuff. But do look at, if it's not working, maybe this is, what we're talking about is the reason why. Anna: Yeah, totally. I just want to add, you can be chubby and not working on it. Slade: You can. Anna: There's nothing wrong with that. Slade: Absolutely. Because, like you said, some people who are really sensitive are not spending time in the body, it's on autopilot in some way, and that could include being sedentary and sort of eating on autopilot and all kinds of things that go along with that. And you are spending all your time in your head. And years and years ago when I tried to quit smoking, I was trying to treat it as an addiction and I went to a doctor who asked me a gazillion questions about my lifestyle. It felt more like a psychiatric assessment, if you've ever been to someone, you know, to be kind of assessed for depression or something like that. There are these elaborate quizzes that you take and it was that kind of process. He told me at the end of it, he said, you're not addicted to the cigarettes, you're addicted to the endorphin that the body releases when you starve yourself and you're using caffeine to stimulate and to stay in your mind and you spend a lot of time doing activities that are super super mental. And it's like your happy place is to feel like a robot, like you're riding around inside this machine and your body is not really you. You're just your brain. And that, I don't know how that changed my perspective but that was the clue to me realizing what was really happening, and it was that I was disassociating. Anna: Totally. And, even like addiction energy is kind of an upper chakra energy anyway though, so it's probably just, you know, easier to focus on and it's funny, as you talked about that, the image I got is like, oh! That kind of helped you drop into your body and kind of let go of that concept of addiction. Slade: Yes. Anna: Super cool. Slade: Total tangent there but I feel like it's all related. It's all related. Anna: Yeah! Slade: I keep having this image, like a... There's gonna be some links that I'm gonna share but there's some images of you on your website, on your psychic school, on your intuitive school program page, that are out in nature and they're very, um, they're very much the, that kind of intersection of spirituality and nature and... That's what this has all been about for me, is kind of bridging those worlds, so to speak. I think that that's really what you're doing, from my perspective. But I'm interested in what you hope to contribute to this kind of new age world, spirituality, personal development... What do you kind of hope to offer? Anna: I think we're... Yeah, that's such a great question. I think you're the first one to really ask it to me. So, you know, I think what I'm really trying to contribute is, there's been a really large focus in this realm of the upper chakras, of transcending the human experience. And I think we've got to stop doing that. To be honest, if we want things to change on the ground, if we actually want to improve this world that we are in, in these human bodies, then I don't think that we can have spirituality divorced from the body, and divorced from what happens in the body. So what I'm hoping to leave behind is, is that. It's how to have all of this juicy, creative, inspirational, psychic stuff, you know, as an in-the-body experience. And actually have it connect us more to our humanity and to, then, how we interact with other humans in the community. I see so much spiritual bypassing these days. I see so much pain and trauma inflicted on other people, saying from some kind of spiritual elitism viewpoint that I think is so harmful, and I see it because we're using our spirituality kind of divorced from our humanity, from our soul, from those deep soulful chakras. So I think that's what I'm trying to do, and really help HSP and empaths step into their power, because there's a power and there's a place for all of us here, particularly us sensitive empaths, and it's so easy for the culture that we're in to feel like there's NOT a place and I just... There is. I think I'm going to say that until I die. There's a place for us and it's really important. Slade: Mmm... We have to talk about your, the free book that you offer on your website and I'm really excited about this. I don't think that, if I'm projecting into the future, I don't think I'd title the podcast this, but I wanted to just steal it and make it the title of the podcast. The title of your e-book is, 'You Are a Goddamn Magical Unicorn', which, I have decided, wins the award for the best title on a subscriber incentive that I have personally seen, and I've looked at a lot of them because I coach people around this, and I was like, Yes! That is awesome. So, 'You're a Goddamn Magical Unicorn'. It's free to everyone who goes to your website. What's it about? Anna: Yeah. So this is actually a guidebook for HSP. It's kind of like, oh! So you found out you're highly sensitive. Here's your instruction manual. Not instruction manual, but your guidebook. And I wrote it from that place of, we are being too goddamn serious, you know. We, there's so much tiptoeing around our sensitivity and just... I just wanted it to be out there. You are special and goddamnit we need you. So this is, I'm not gonna lie, I may have had some whisky while I wrote this, but this is a guidebook written in, take the title, it's written in that sort of tone. It also, though, offers really practical suggestions for getting in your body for grounding. It offers guided meditations. You also, if you sign up for my newsletter, you get a book and you get the guided meditation that's in the book as an audio file. So you get both. Slade: Okay, cool. Anna: Yeah. And I think I even, ohmygosh, I think I even created a unicorn mandala for you to colour in there. But basically it's like, Here's what high-sensitivity means, like, this is what it means biologically. Here's how herd animals, because all mammals have highly sensitive individuals. So here's how mammals handle high sensitivity, which I think is super cool. Like, the highly sensitive deer or like zebras of any herd are so revered, because they're the first ones to know that there's danger. Slade: Mmm! Anna: So everyone is like, What are the sensitives doing? We will follow the sensitives. And it's just in humans where we get all backwards. And so, I talk about the herd mentality in a very fun way and then I talk about, yeah, taking up space as your own highly sensitive being, and here are three ways you can get started. Slade: Okay. That's awesome. That's exactly kind of what I was kind of hoping that you would have somewhere to send someone. When someone approaches me and they say, 'Help, I'm just kind of like, curled up in a ball here.' I always want to say, 'Do this.' And you're right. I teach them how to protect themselves first, and I like what you talked about on the show about the need to be in the body first and all that. So I think that's an incredibly cool resource even if it didn't have such a kickass title, it sounds like a really awesome piece of information, so definitely we will link to that. Go to your website. It's right there on the homepage and you can't miss that cute little image. So what's next for you? Do you have any big projects on the horizon here? Anna: Yes, yes. I have been building what I'm calling the School for Sacred Rebellion for awhile now. And this is kind of the next step from the Refuge. So the Refuge for Sacred Rebellion is that place where we all get started together. Within that, you learn those sensitive self-defense tools that are kind of like Spiritual Hygiene 101. The School for Sacred Rebellion is my intuitive development program where we go through all of the clairs. We learn how to do, um, you can jump in kind of. Part One is doing basic aura healings. So actually working in, I call it 'Activating the healer' because I believe we're all healers so let's just find yours. Let's find your healer and bring them to the forefront. And you can kind of stop there, and that provides you with a tremendous amount of resources just for working with your own energy and doing healings on yourself and with others. And if you want to dive deeper into those intuitive arts, it goes into Part Two, which is developing clairvoyance, claircognizance, clairsentience, clairaudience, all of that and at the end, we finish with this really cool integration mentorship, because I don't want to create little Anna-bots, you know, like you're having to go out in the world and do what I do. The people that are, that this program is really for are, you know, people who are already doing some form of healing work. I mean, it doesn't have to be for this, but people who are like, 'Yeah, I'm a massage therapist', 'I'm a yoga teacher', 'I'm a doctor', and I would just love to have more to offer my people. So you go through this program, you learn which of the clairs are your strengths, how you want to put them together and then in the mentorship, we, you basically get a bunch of one-on-one and group support in how are you going to go do you now, in this world? Slade: One of the things that I notice about it that I thought was really appealing was the fact that it's broken up into stages, almost more like, if you go to college, and you take, like, 101, and then you come back the next semester and do 201, you know, 102, however they number it, I can't remember, it's been too long. But I like the fact that you can kind of come in and get a stage of the work and then get off and work at that level, or you could keep going, or you could come back and go continue on with the next thing. Anna: Yup. Slade: But rather than it being ONE big huge long program that you commit to from the beginning, you can kind of go through it, you can break it up a little bit more, which I think is gonna really appeal to people, both for financial reasons and also just because absorbing and processing some of this stuff, you need to sit with a tool, like what you just described, you know... Anna: Totally. Slade: ...discovering the self-healer within you, that's something you could sit in that might carry you for months, as you're processing that and integrating that into your life, before you feel like you need to come back to the next thing. Rather than kind of stuffing your face with too much stuff and then trying to figure out later, why did I buy all this, you know. Anna: Yeah. Slade: I want to mention, too, that the course is really not officially launching until the summer of 2018 but Anna has decided to share the page with us. Like I said, check it out just for the cool photography, if nothing else. There's some really great imagery there, great information, and if someone does go to that page and they're interested, they can go ahead and start working with some of these programs? Anna: They can, well, yes and no. So my - if you get to the school and you are just super stoked about it, and you really want to be in it, then get into the Refuge, because the Refuge is where you get those, kind of the starter tools... Slade: Okay. Anna: Like, the prerequisite tools that really guide everything else. The next round of teaching those tools is going to be early Fall of this year. And then there'll be another class of the School. Eventually, I hope to have enough co-teachers and enough bandwidth. I have a one year old right now so I don't have a huge amount of bandwidth, that I can have, you know, multiple sections of the courses going at once, so it is like, 'Oh yeah, that section is offered then and then.' Slade: Okay. Anna: But right now it's a little bit more linear, just because of all of that. Slade: Yeah. Okay. So we're getting a sneak peak at what's coming from you. Anna: Yeah! Slade: And that's very, very cool, and still, the entry point would be to get into the Refuge and start working with the tools and the community there, either way. But we'll link to it just so you can check it out and see what's on offer and see your cool new haircut. And um... Anna: Oh, it's funny, Slade. So I just want to share something with you, with the audience, which is that, so I cut all my hair off and dyed it platinum blonde, which I loved. And now I've been doing a bunch of mountain biking in Seattle, around Seattle, and I nailed these upgrades to my bike and my husband was kind of frowning, like, Okay, I won't bleach my hair anymore, in order to pay for the upgrades. You know, to kind of make it even. So right now, I'm kind of rocking '90s boy band colours. Slade: Okay! Anna: You know, like, it's like a little '90s boy band. I'm not that stoked on it but it's kind of funny. Slade: Hey, listen, one of my best girl friends is platinum and it's, you gotta be like, dedicated to platinum. It's a lot of upkeep and a lot of chemistry involved. Yeah. It's not just something you do once. Anna: Nope. Slade: Anna, it's been really fantastic capturing this conversation with you and hearing about your take on everything. I definitely learned a few things and I'm processing some things differently, having spoken with you about HSP and how to, how to work with that. I think I will go away and ponder and probably do some things differently. Definitely gonna be sending some people to the Goddamn Magical Unicorn book and... But just before you leave us, tell everyone where they can go to find you online. Anna: Yeah, you can find me at www.sensitivityuncensored.com. And then I'm also, I'm kind of on Facebook but really I'm more on Instagram @sensitivity_uncensored. Slade: Cool. We'll put all the links in the Show Notes to the various parts of your site that we highlighted. That was great, Anna. Thank you for coming on. Anna: Yeah, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

Anna discusses raising a son with childhood-onset schizophrenia on a Midwestern farm, the journey to the right diagnosis & medications, and what there is to celebrate.   Transcription: SPEAKER: Welcome to the ‘Just Ask Mom' podcast where mothers share their experiences of raising children with mental illness. ‘Just ask Mom' is a Mothers on the Frontline production. Today, we will speak with Anna, the mother of a son with early onset schizophrenia. Anna: My name is Anna and I'm from the Midwest and … oh, gosh. I went to college for computer information systems, got my degree, worked for the railroad for a number of years in information systems and married a farmer. So it's quite a diverse life. Tammy: Yes. Anna:  Yeah, that's a little bit about me. Tammy: Very cool. Anna: I always wanted to be a mom. Growing up, you know, I always imagined myself with five kids and when I got married to my husband, I mean, I just really imagined our life as a typical farm family, lots of kids and dogs and, you know, running around outside and life didn't happen that way. [music] So we have one son, and he was actually adopted from Russia. He was 14 months old and at the time. We always expected when you adopt a child from an orphanage situation like that that there's going be some catch up. There's going to be some things that you need to do to play catch up. Matthew always stayed behind, though. He never was able to catch up and working through that as he got older, more and more issues came out and come to find out when he was 13 he was officially diagnosed with early onset schizophrenia. [He] had symptoms starting at the age of eight and that was a very hard thing to accept as a parent, especially when it's your only-- I mean, it's always hard, but when it's your only child and you've gone through so much to get this child and um-- I went through a pretty major grieving process, you know-- Tammy: Absolutely. Anna:  So the thing that I want other parents to know: when you're dealing with a child with special needs and that has such a serious illness, -- it's okay. It's okay to grieve, it's okay to grieve for that child that you had in your heart, that you expected, that you always pictured that you would have raised. That is a loss and you shouldn't feel guilty about grieving for that child, but then you have to move past that. You have to get to a place where you accept that child for who they are. It's easy to say and hard to do but once you get to that place where you have truly accepted that child for who they are and for their abilities-- although they may be different than what you expected, you-- you'll find that things are easier. You'll find that it's not as hard to accept where they're at and enjoy them for who they are and every day becomes easier. Tammy: This is especially a lesson you have to learn in this particular situation but what you're saying is true for any parent. Anna: Sure. Absolutely. For any parent, any child. You can have a child that is neuro-typical but they don't have the same likes as you do and they don't have the same interests as you do and you guys are polar opposites and you still have to accept that child for who they are. You may butt heads but you have to realize they are their own individual. Absolutely.  I think for my husband, I'll kind of speak to that little bit-- he's a farmer. He's a typical Midwestern farmer and grew up in a very sheltered environment, you know, didn't ever really have any exposure to the big city and diversity and things like that, and it was, I mean, he had it in his mind his expectations of his child would be that they would help him farm. They would grow up learning that and doing that and that wasn't something that Matthew could do. That was really hard for him to accept and as long as he wasn't accepting that, as long as he was fighting that internally, he was miserable. Once he was able to accept that, he could move on with his life and he could be happy and...

  This story is about travelling the world, interviewing lots of men (everyone from porn stars to famous author John Grey), and going on a magical Ayahuasca journey. And at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best mushroom you can use to make your own magical brew in your home in case you don't happen to have Ayahuasca growing on your doorstep. What you will learn an easy way to start travelling the world and working from anywhere three things about men that not everyone may realize how to make a tasty brew at home that isn't Ayahuasca, but is pretty darn magical all the same At the end of this episode I'll share with you the best mushroom you can use to make your own magical brew in your home in case you don't happen to have Ayahuasca growing on your doorstep. Our guest, Anna Rova I am very excited to be joined here today by Anna Rova, who is a fellow podcaster, writer and entrepreneur. And among other cool things, Anna has some very interesting insights on relationships. She has interviewed all kinds of people about this topic, from porn stars to John Gray who is the author of the bestseller Men Are from Mars, Women Are From Venus. Anna has also done lots of other magical things, including Ayahuasca which she'll talk about a bit later. So Anna welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I'm really excited to have you here today! Anna: Thanks for having me! I'm so excited too! Beginning to travel the world with a one-way ticket Me: Now I know that you basically travel the world writing and doing other amazing things, and I would really love for us to start by having you tell everybody how you came to become a digital nomad. Anna: OK, well that's an easy subject to start with. I became a digital nomad about 2 years ago. Last year around May I started travelling full time, and I was in Malaysia working for a company called MindValley who make personal growth products. I did online marketing there and I got exposed to the digital nomads out there and one day I was like "Oh my God, I don't need to be in an office, I can be anywhere and do my work". So I was over my Malaysia chapter and I booked a one-way ticket to Bangkok. I had a friend there, I went to a wedding there. And then after a week in Bangkok I booked a ticket to an island, got an apartment, taught myself how to ride a scooter and that was it! And the rest is history! It's such a journey, I've travelled all over the world, I've lived in more than 15 countries in the last 2 years. Just ask me what you want to know more about! When in doubt, teach yourself Me: I love how you taught yourself how to ride a scooter, I mean, was that just trial and error? Did you just fall off and then get back on? Anna: I think that was the scariest shit ever in my life because overall I think I had that summer 3 accidents on the motorbike and that's unavoidable. When I was renting an apartment, I had to get around. And for anyone who's been to Thailand, besides Bangkok, the only way to get around is by motorbike. I was scared to death to ride it, I didn't have a driver's license and I thought "I suppose I'm just gonna do it!" But I learned how to balance it in the right way, and that's it. So I went on the street and in the first 3 minutes I realized I was gonna be out of gas, and I was like 'shit what am I gonna do' and you know, I just did it. In 2 months I was pretty much like a pro. I loved it, I loved the freedom of going wherever I wanted. An easy way to transition from full-time work to digital nomad Me: At that point were you writing articles? Anna: Well no, I have an interesting story because for me it wasn't like quitting everything and then doing my business. It was good because this transition from having a full-time job in an office to a digital nomad lifestyle with remote work can be a really hard one. I think a lot of people aren't prepared, they think it's easy. But I negotiated to basically start working remotely for the same company. I had a full-time job and I didn't need to be in an office, so that was for about half a year so it really helped me to have stability for the first 6 months, somebody out there waiting for me to show up and do my work. The rest was so unstable, you didn't know what's going to happen tomorrow, where you'd be, it was crazy. So that was great and I wasn't ready yet to jump into my full-on entrepreneurship journey. But I actually found another job with a company that's in the same industry and I signed a contract for another year to work full-time remotely doing online marketing which was great. I negotiated like a double salary and it was awesome! Another one-way ticket...to Colombia I booked my one-way ticket to Colombia and you know, Latin America was a continent that was always in my dreams. But after a year I came back to this feeling that I'm an entrepreneur, you know? I need to do my own thing, I have so much in me to write, to say, to discover the world, to teach. So I quit the job this January just 3 months ago and I went on this 90-day Wanderova journey and I thought I'm just gonna write about it, and it was incredible! In two months of writing on Medium I got to top writer in Travel, top writer in Relationships, I got published by a publication, I'm building my own business, I coached a couple of people. Becoming a relationship expert Me: So then that was my next question actually, because we'll link to Medium in the show notes and then people can read about the posts that you were writing when you were travelling. But I'm curious to know how you then started to write about relationships and how you got to interview porn stars and John Gray? Talk about a mixture! Anna: So actually that project, my expertise in relationships started way before I became a digital nomad. This is also a sign for me when I look back I realize that I was always entrepreneurial. I just didn't fully realize it consciously. From MindValley to John Gray While I had my full-time job in Malaysia, some of you might know that MindValley is such a creative, entrepreneurial place. And I started my podcast in 2014. At that time I had just broke up with my boyfriend. We were almost engaged and all of that but I said I don't want that. I didn't know anything about relationships but I was into podcasting and I just said "I'm going to start my own podcast where I'm going to interview men about relationships to figure it all out". And you know, it was such a journey, I did the project for two years. In these two years I got a chance to interview 43 amazing men all about women and relationships. I asked them all kinds of questions, and yes I interviewed John Gray. He wrote 17 books on relationships and you know, he's a famous writer and speaker, men go to their cave and whatever. I was shocked myself when he decided to say yes and have an interview with me. Enter the porn star I interviewed porn stars. It's actually a funny story because after my interview with a porn star, his name was I think John Logan. A couple of weeks later I was doing my self satisfaction moment in bed and then I saw the guy in a porn video in like a threesome and I was like "Oh my God I can't watch this! I interviewed him on my podcast!" But yeah, I interviewed all kinds of men from all kinds of nationalities, all kinds of walks of life. And I just asked them what do they find attractive in a woman and all of that. Me: And what kind of things came out? What are some of the common things that men seem to say about what makes women attractive? Anna: Oh this is such a huge subject! Me: Maybe two or three little things. Anna: I actually learned a lot, not only from them, but I read a lot, I researched the subject. And I became a totally different woman. It was a journey to discover men, but at the same time it was more of a journey of discovering myself and what I think about men, what I think about relationships, what I think about women. The first thing Anna learned about men A lot of shit came up that were limiting beliefs, patterns from my childhood, whatever. So one of the things that I love to tell everyone, and women especially, is that we have this notion that men are something based on what we've seen in our life. But I absolutely believe 100% in the good of men: I love men, I love their masculinity, their polarity. And I started appreciating men. I realized what they have to go through to even talk to a woman, you know? Like I never thought about it. Men go through their puberty and they just start Googling things and talking to other men about how to get women. We as women, I mean I don't want to generalize but a lot of women are so bitchy to men and so down on men and "oh they just want to get into my pants" and I just went inside and realized who they're raised by and how they're going through all of this process. First I'd say that I just got to understand and appreciate men, which was my mission. I realized that it's a journey for all of us. Anna's biggest learning The other thing that I realized is that I dug deep and this is all about patterns and limiting beliefs that come from my family and my childhood and my culture and what I've seen. And I realized that I was attracting all of these emotionally unavailable men because I myself was emotionally unavailable. So my second tip and my biggest learning is that our partners or the men that we attract as women are a direct reflection of us. If we attract someone that doesn't call us back or whatever, that means that we ourselves are unavailable. And it's really hard to realize cause you're like "But I want love! I want a relationship!" But you're just not ready. That's what I tell all of my girlfriends when they ask me. If you're attracting super needy men there's a lot of deep, deep work in there. So that's the second thing. The third thing: we're working with broken tools And the third thing I'd say is that I just realized I never saw growing up a healthy model of how relationships should be. I come from a small Eastern European country, my mother passed away when I was 8 years old, and my dad after that remarried a couple of times. Well, once he remarried, but there were many women in his life and there was a stepmother, there was an evil bitch there, I mean I have a crazy story. Basically I just didn't see healthy relationships where men loved their women, women loved their men and they had healthy relationships where they're partners. They're not like "Oh my God, you're my other half" and like "Save me" and "Heal all my wounds". I guess one of the biggest realizations was that I just realized that our modern notion of love and relationships is completely broken. We just expect the other person to come in and "Make me happy, heal my wounds". It just doesn't work. A healthy relationship today, and still travelling! Today I'm engaged to my man, but I always make sure that this is me, and my shit is like my shit and I need to work on me constantly. Even when I'm getting married. I'm like "this is his own shit, this is my shit". We're together in this, and we're choosing each other every day and you know, we're not dependent on each other emotionally. At least I hope we're not. Me: You know, I like that phrase 'choosing each other every day', that's really quite cool. Yeah. Anna: Yeah. So I believe that really helped me and you know, I just became emotionally independent and that's how I met my man currently and that's how he proposed 9 months after we met. We're having a wedding in Moldova in my country and it's so beautiful and flowery but there was a lot of work behind it. I went through a lot of stuff. So that's the story. Anna's Ayahuasca journey Me: So when I was reading your blog and the stories of your travels, I just zeroed in on your Ayahuasca story. I was like "I have got to read this!" because I've always wanted to try it and I haven't had the opportunity yet and I know that I will. But for the benefit of anyone listening that doesn't know anything about it, can you just tell us really briefly like what it is, and also how you came to be taking it and what happened? What Ayahuasca is Anna: Ayahuasca is very common among travellers because full-time travellers have a certain character, they're adventurous, so they often know about Ayahuasca. But people who don't travel that much, they're like 'what the hell is that'. So Ayahuasca is something that I heard about a couple of years ago that somebody did it, and it was such an amazing experience. Life-transformation and whatever. I thought "I've gotta do it, I've got to have it on my bucket list!" Me: Cause it's a herb, right? You take it as a tea? Anna: Yeah, so what it is...There's a lot of controversy out there. Scientists have done research and experiments on what ayahuasca does and its effects. But basically it's a herb, it's a medicinal plant that's found in the Amazon so in the Brazilian part in Peru. How you use Ayahuasca...the right way It's mostly in Peru, people go there to have this experience. Ayahuasca's a psychedelic plant. But the difference between all the psychedelic drugs out there, MDMA etc, I mean I haven't done any of that by the way. They call Ayahuasca a medicinal plant and a life transformation experience because it's a shamanic ceremony. So it's not like you go into a club and eat a plant or a mushroom. There's a ceremony, there's a shaman who guides people through. It's a very serious experience, it's an adventure. You've got to be ready to do it and there are so many positive stories around it. People are realizing their life purpose or whatever. And there are also bad stories around it, that people have horrible experiences. What they say that ayahuasca does is that if you look at the research it's actually used as a treatment for drug addicts for example, and people who are lost and want to see but they can't see. So it affects some parts of your brain that are responsible for emotional memories. What Ayahuasca can show you That's why it's healing. It's a healing experience in a way. They say that ayahuasca will show you what you need to see. So I wrote this post, there are two parts. One of them is where you count down... Me: That's the one I read. I haven't read part 2 and I was like "What happens?" Anna: Yes I describe how I felt before, and I was like pushing away the fear and then 48 hours before, an hour before...I was really scared because I didn't know what the hell was gonna happen. What Ayahuasca does So basically it's a liquid tea, they call it Ayahuasca tea. You drink it and maybe in like 20 minutes it starts coming to you. And then basically after that you fall into a state of deep dream and you start seeing psychedelic things for like 5 hours. Me: Wow! 5 hours! Anna: Yes, it's really intense. Me: But you don't see the time go by, I would imagine, right? Anna: Yes, it's totally, well not out of body, I wouldn't know how to describe it. Me: Well it's like when we dream, we're in a completely different state of consciousness, right? And so time doesn't have the same meaning. Anna: Exactly, yeah. And I was aware of what was happening but I was deeply into it. I put it all out there in part 2 for readers to read, but every experience is different. Our group had a really good experience. We did it during the day. We were in a very safe environment which is very important. But I've heard stories of not having a great experience, so it really depends where you are in life, how ready you are, and how much of a control freak you are. A lot of people who didn't have a good experience tried to control it. And you just can't do that. You've gotta work on just letting it go, letting it do its job and all that. Anna's main takeaway from her Ayahuasca journey I'm really happy I did it. It still has its effects on me up until today and I think it always will. I plan to do it again and I'm actually still processing it. I'm really glad I did it. It was powerful. Me: What was the main thing that it gave to you? I mean, if you had to pick one thing, what would that be? Anna: Well I think it's two things. First of all, there's a feeling of oneness. Oneness with the world, with nature, with people. And at the end of it you just feel bliss. Our shaman explained that when you do Ayahuasca, you're at a very high rate of vibration which is actually the human natural state of vibration. I totally believe that we are here to enjoy life. We are here to be happy and to be on that really high vibration. I just felt this feeling of oneness. I felt like whatever I have to do at home, like "Oh I have to do a podcast?" Whatever I have to do, it doesn't really matter. It's like humans we complicate it so much. I felt that before through travelling, but this was a really intense feeling. On top of that... The second thing is that I just look at life as a game. It's all a game! Me: Yes! Totally! Anna: We just complicate things so much but if you just let things flow and be in the game, nobody knows what the fuck they're doing anyway! Me: I tell myself that a lot. I do! It's a game! It was like today because you know, for me, I'm super excited because you're like my first podcast guest, right? Yay! Anna: Yay! Me: And so you know this morning, of course you get a bit nervous. Because I'm using different technology for the first time and all that, and I'm like "You know what? So what!" It's a game as you say, and we're having fun and learning and exploring. Where to find out more about Anna So you've done so many cool things and I know you have a lot to share with listeners. Where do people go if they want to find out more and read about you and read more about your journey? Anna's writings Anna: Well first of all I send everybody to Medium. So if they go to www.Medium.com/@wanderova, this is my profile and I'm writing everything there. I'd say there are three different topics I write about which are travel, relationships and life. But travel not in the sense that I'm not a travel blogger. I don't write about 'ten things to do here and here', I don't care about that. I mostly write about personal growth and self development and my thoughts. My angry thoughts...and so if they like what they're reading I also love to send people to wanderova.com. It's my website and you can sign up to get updates and whenever I create something I'll just send you an email telling you how things are and just sharing my thoughts and stuff. I'm building a business and a lot of things are coming up. But I'd say that, yeah, read my Medium stuff and if you like it then go and subscribe at wanderova.com and we'll have a conversation about life and purpose and travels, yeah. Anna's podcast Me: And your podcast as well, that can be found where? Anna: Well, as I said the podcast isn't active yet but people can listen to it. My previous website is meninsideshow.com or they can find the actual episodes on SoundCloud and type 'meninsideshow' and you can listen to all these different interviews with men. There's a lot of deep, cool stuff because men get very vulnerable. That's what I realized, they're not like robotic machines that don't have feelings. They've been taught to have this image but their world is as intense and as deep as ours. It's just a different polarity but it's powerful. Me: Super! So I'll link to all of those in the show notes for people. Anna, thank you so, so much. I really love your stories. And I for one am definitely going to listen to those podcast episodes. A super mushroom for your own magical brew Now I did mention at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you what mushroom you can use to make your own magical brew at home. Now I can't promise you it will take you on a magical journey, but it's a great coffee substitute. The mushroom is reishi. Now before you freak out and think where the hell am I gonna get reishi, you can easily get it on Amazon. Benefits of reishi mushroom Reishi mushroom not only makes a great drink, but it's an adaptogen. What that means is that it helps us deal with stress. So super important, right? Reishi also helps keep your blood sugar stable, and it's great for both your immune system and your lymph system. On top of that, reishi is said to be able to help defend against tumor growth, improve liver function, balance your hormones as well as help fight diabetes, allergies and asthma. So you really want to be getting yourself some reishi. I'll link to a very informative article in the show notes as well if you want to get more in-depth scientific knowledge about reishi. How to use reishi mushroom As to how you use it, well, if you've got pieces of reishi, you brew them. You make a tea. If you've got the powder, you just tip the powder into your blender with some warm water. Then you blend your reishi brew with cacao powder and a handful of cashews for a super delicious mocha. Or you can make my coffee substitute which I'll link to in the show notes. So I hope you've enjoyed our tales of magical journeys and brews! And if you try some reishi (or ayahuasca, for that matter), let me know in the comments! Have YOU got a story to share? If you've got a crazy, true story to share - with or without magic mushrooms! - and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day in your situation), I'd love to hear from you! Got a question, or a comment? Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes, Stitcher or Tunein. I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now! RESOURCES Anna's podcast: https://soundcloud.com/maninside-show Anna's blog: https://medium.com/@wanderova My recipe using reishi mushrooms: https://rockingrawchef.com/five-more-superfoods-and-a-coffee-substitute-you-wouldnt-believe/   Anna RovaAnna Rova is an online marketer, lover of life and a yogi who is living the dream working and traveling the world. Originally from Moldova, Anna has lived in over 15 countries including Malaysia, Columbia and Mexico. She continues to travel as a digital nomad.

I fjärde avsnittet av Föda barn berättar Anna Söderholm om sin starka rädsla inför förlossningen och hur hon fick hjälp att känna tillit både till sin egen förmåga och till vården. Med i studion finns barnmorskan Lena Hultsberg, som startade Auroramottagningen på Danderyds sjukhus för 15 år sedan och förlossningsöverläkaren Sophia Brismar som bland annat förklarar vad ett kejsarsnitt innebär. Programledare är Ingvor Farinotte.