Podcasts about Scandinavia

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The years following the French Revolution were plagued by seemingly endless wars. But the governments in both Copenhagen and Stockholm preferred to stay out of the fighting, instead making money trading with all sides. It worked for a while, but eventually the fires of war reached Scandinavia as well.

You're listening to Burnt Toast! I'm Virginia Sole-Smith. Today, my conversation is with Lisa Sibbett, PhD. Lisa writes The Auntie Bulletin, a weekly newsletter about kinship, chosen family and community care. As a long time Auntie herself, Lisa often focuses on the experiences of people without children who are nevertheless, in her words, "cultivating childful lives." We've been talking a whole bunch about community on Burnt Toast lately, and Lisa reached out to have a conversation about the systems that get in the way of our community building efforts—specifically our culture's systemic isolation of the nuclear family. This is one of those conversations that isn't "classic Burnt Toast." But we're here to do fat liberation work—and so how we think about community matters here, because community is fundamental to any kind of advocacy work. Plus it brings us joy! And joy matters too. I super appreciate this conversation with Lisa, and I know you will too.Join our community! Today's episode is free! But don't forget, if you were a Substack subscriber, you have until October 28 to claim your free access to our paid content. Check your email for your special gift link! Episode 216 TranscriptLisaSo my newsletter is about building kinship and community care. I live in cohousing, and I've been an auntie for many years to lots of different kids. I've always been really involved in the lives of other people's children. And people who have lives like mine, we often don't really have even language for describing what our experience is like. It's sort of illegible to other people. Like, what's your role? Why are you here?And all of this has really blossomed into work that's definitely about loving and supporting families and other people's children, but I also write about elder care and building relationships with elders and building community and cohousing. And I have a chronic illness, so I sometimes write about balancing self-care and community care. VirginiaI have been an instant convert to your work, because a lot of what you write really challenges me in really useful ways. You have really made me reckon with how much I have been siloed in the structure of my life. It's funny because I actually grew up with a kind of accidental–it wasn't quite cohousing. We had two separate houses. But I was the child of a very amicable divorce, and my four parents co-parented pretty fluidly. So I grew up with adults who were not my biological parents playing really important roles in my life. And I have gotten to the point where I'm realizing I want a version of that for my kids. And that maybe that is just a better model. So it's fascinating to consider what that can look like when not everybody has those very specific circumstances. LisaIt's a dreamy setup, actually, to have amicably divorced parents and extra parents.VirginiaI'm super proud of all of my parents for making it work. My sister —who is my half sister from my dad's second marriage—has a baby now. And my mom made the first birthday cake for them. There are a lot of beautiful things about blended families. When they work, they're really amazing. And it always felt like we were doing something kind of weird, and other people didn't quite understand our family. So I also relate to that piece of it. Because when you say "cohousing community," I think a lot of folks don't really know what that term means. What does it look like, and how does it manifest in practice? What is daily life like in a cohousing community? LisaThere are different synonyms or near neighbor terms for cohousing. Another one is "intentional community." Back in the day, we might think about it as kind of a commune, although in the commune structure, people tended to actually pool their finances. I would say that cohousing is a much more kind of hybrid model between having your own space and being up in each other's spaces and sharing all of the resources. Join the Burnt Toast community! So I really think of cohousing as coming frpm where so many dreamy social policies come from: Scandinavia. In Denmark and I think other countries in Northern Europe there is a lot of intentional urban planning around building shared, communal living spaces where there are things like community kitchens and shared outdoor space for lots of different residences. So that's kind of the model that cohousing in the US tends to come from. And sometimes it's people living together in a house. Sometimes it's houses clustered together, or a shared apartment building. It can look a lot of different ways. The shared attribute is that you're attempting to live in a more communal way and sharing a lot of your familial resources. In my cohousing community, there are just three households. It's really, really small. We really lucked into it. My partner and I were displaced due to growth in our city, and needed to find a new place to live. And we had been talking with some friends for years about hoping to move into cohousing with them. But it's very hard to actually make happen. It takes a lot of luck, especially in urban environments, but I think probably anywhere in the United States, because our policies and infrastructure are really not set up for it. So we were thinking about doing cohousing with our friends. They were going to build a backyard cottage. We were thinking about moving into the backyard cottage, but it was feeling a little bit too crowded. And then my partner was like, "Well, you know, the house next door is for sale." So it was really fortuitous, because the housing market was blowing up. Houses were being sold really, really fast, but there were some specific conditions around this particular house that made it possible for us to buy it. So we ended up buying a house next door to our friends. And then they also have a basement apartment and a backyard cottage. So there are people living in the basement apartment, and then, actually, the backyard cottage is an Airbnb right now, but it could potentially be expanded. So we have three households. One household has kids, two households don't, and our backyard is completely merged. We eat meals together four nights a week or five nights a week. Typically, we take turns cooking for each other, and have these big communal meals, and which is just such a delight. And if your car breaks down, there's always a car to borrow. We share all our garden tools, and we have sheds that we share. There are a lot of collective resources, and availability for rides to the airport ,and that kind of thing. VirginiaThere are just so many practical applications! LisaIt's really delightful. Prior to moving into cohousing, we never hosted people at all. I was very averse to the idea of living in shared space. I was really worried about that. But because we have our own spaces and we have communal spaces, it sort of works for different people's energies. And I certainly have become much more flexible and comfortable with having lots of people around. I'm no longer afraid of cooking for 12 people, you know? So it just makes it a lot easier to have a life where you can go in and out of your introversion phases and your social phases.VirginiaI'm sure because you're around each other all the time, there's not the same sense of "putting on your outgoing personality." Like for introverts, when we socialize, there's a bit of a putting on that persona.LisaTotally. It's much more like family. We're kind of hanging around in our pajamas, and nobody's cleaning their houses. VirginiaYou have that comfort level, which is hard to replicate. It's hard even for people who are good friends, but haven't sort of intentionally said, "We want this in our relationship. "There are all those pressures that kick in to have your house look a certain way. This is something I've been writing about —how the hosting perfectionism expectations are really high. Messy House Hosting! LisaAbsolutely, yeah. And it's just such an impairment for us to have to live that way.VirginiaFor me, it took getting divorced to reckon with wanting to make some changes. I mean, in a lot of ways, it was just necessary. There were no longer two adults in my household. The moving parts of my life were just more. I suddenly realized I needed support. But it was so hard to get over those initial hurdles. Almost every other friend I've had who's gotten divorced since says the same thing. Like, wait, I'm going to ask people for a ride for my child? It's this huge stumbling block when, actually, that should have been how we're all parenting and living. But it really shows how much marriage really isolates us. Or, a lot of marriages really isolate us. Our beliefs about the nuclear family really isolate us and condition us to feel like we have to handle it all by ourselves. So I would love to hear your thoughts on where does that come from? Why do we internalize that so much? LisaVirginia, you've been cultivating this wonderful metaphor about the various things that are diets. VirginiaMy life's work is to tell everybody, "everything is a diet."LisaEverything's a diet! And I feel like it's such a powerful metaphor, and I think it really, really applies here. The nuclear family is such a diet. You have done, I think, the Lord's work over the last couple of years, helping us conceptualize that metaphor around what does it mean to say something is a diet? And the way that I'm thinking of the Virginia Sole-Smith Model of Diet Culture is that there's an oppressive and compulsory ideal that we're all supposed to live up to. If we're not living up to it, then we're doing it wrong, and we need to be working harder. And there's this rewarding of restriction, which, of course, then increases demands for consumer goods and forces us to buy things. Then, of course, it also doesn't actually work, right? And all of that is coming out of a culture of capitalism and individualism that wants us to solve our problems by buying stuff. VirginiaI mean, I say all the time, Amazon Prime was my co-parent.LisaI think the nuclear family is just part of that whole system of individualism and consumerism that we're supposed to be living in. It really benefits the free market for us all to be isolated in these little nuclear families, not pulling on shared resources, so we all have to buy our own resources and not being able to rely on community care, so we have to pay for all of the care that we get in life. And that is gross. That's bad. We don't like that. And you also have written, which I really appreciate, that it's a very logical survival strategy to adhere to these ideals, especially the farther away you are from the social ideal. If you're marginalized in any way, the more trying to adhere to these ideals gives us cover.To me, that all just maps onto the nuclear family without any gaps. Going back to your specific question about why is it so hard to not feel like in an imposition when you're asking for help: We're just deeply, deeply, deeply conditioned to be self reliant within the unit of the family and not ask for help. Both you and I have interviewed the wonderful Jessica Slice in the last few months, and she has really helped me.Jessica wrote Unfit Parent. She's a disabled mom, and she has really helped me think about how interdependence and asking for help is actually really stigmatized in our culture, and the kind of logical extension of that for disabled parents is that they get labeled unfit and their kids get taken away. But there's a whole spectrum there of asking for help as a weakness, as being a loser, as being really deeply wrong, and we should never do it. And we're just, like, deeply conditioned in that way. VirginiaSpeaking of community care: My 12-year-old was supposed to babysit for my friend's daughter this afternoon, she has like a standing Tuesday gig. And my younger child was going to go along with her, to hang out, because she's friends with the younger kiddo. I was going pick them up later. But then we heard this morning that this little friend has head lice. And that did make the community care fall apart! LisaOh no. It's time to isolate!  VirginiaWhile I want us all to be together....LisaThere can be too much togetherness. You don't want to shave your head.VirginiaThat said, though: It was a great example of community care, because that mom and I are texting with our other mom friends, talking about which lice lady you want to book to come deal with that, and figuring out who needs to get their head checked. So it was still a pooling of resources and support, just not quite the way we envisioned anyway. LisaIt always unfolds in different ways than we expect.VirginiaBut what you're saying about the deeply held belief that we have to do it all, that we're inconveniencing other people by having needs: That myth completely disguises the fact that actually, when you ask for help, you build your bonds with other people, right? It actually is a way of being more connected to people. People like to be asked for help, even if they can't do it all the time. They want to feel useful and valuable and and you can offer an exchange. This sounds so silly, but in the beginning I was very aware, like, if I asked someone for a ride or a play date, like, how soon could I reciprocate to make sure that I was holding up my end of the bargain? And you do slowly start to drift away from needing that. It's like, oh no, that's the capitalism again, right? That's making it all very transactional, but it's hard to let go of that mindset. LisaYeah, and it just takes practice. I mean, I think that your example is so nice that just over time, you've kind of loosened up around it. It's almost like exposure therapy in asking for help. It doesn't have to be this transactional transaction.VirginiaAnd I think you start to realize, the ways you can offer help that will work for you, because that's another thing, right? Like, we have to manage our own bandwidth. You wrote recently that sometimes people who aren't in the habit of doing this are afraid that now I'll have to say yes to everything, or this is going to be this total overhaul of my life. And  No. You can say no, because you know you say yes often enough. So talk about that a little bit.Community building for introverts!LisaAbsolutely. I come at this from a perspective of living with chronic illness and disability where I really need to ration my energy. I've only been diagnosed in the last few years, and prior to that I just thought that I was lazy and weak, and I had a lot of really negative stories about my lack of capacity, and I'm still unlearning those. But over the past few years, I've been really experimenting with just recognizing what I am capable of giving and also recognizing that resting is a necessary part of the process of being able to give. If I don't rest, I can't give. And so actually, I'm doing something responsible and good for my community when I rest. You know, whatever that resting looks like for me or for other people, and it can look a lot of different ways. Some people rest by climbing rocks. I am certainly not one of those people, but...VirginiaThat is not my idea of relaxation. LisaBut, whatever, it takes all kinds, right? And I think that the systems of community care are so much more sustainable the more that we are showing up as our authentic selves. VirginiaYou talked about how you schedule rest for yourself. I'd love to hear more about that. LisaThat was an idea that I got from a really, really, really good therapist, by far the best therapist I've ever had, who herself lives with chronic illness and chronic pain. She initially suggested to me that whenever I travel--I have a hard time with travel--that, like, if I travel for three days, I need to book three days of rest. If I travel for two weeks, I need to book two weeks of rest. That's a radical proposition to me, and one that I still am like, yeah, I don't know if I can quite make that happen. But it did inspire me to think about what would work for me. And the reality of my life for many, many years, is that on a cycle of one to two weeks, I have at least one day where I just collapse and am incapable of doing anything. I can't get out of bed. So this conversation with my therapist inspired me to go, you know, maybe I should just calendar a day of rest every week. Instead of having an uncontrolled crash, I can have a controlled crash, and then I'm making the decision ahead of time that I'm going to rest, rather than having to emergently rest when other people are relying on me for something, right? It just actually makes me more reliable to rest on a calendar.VirginiaAnd it honors that need. You're not pretending that's not going to happen or hoping you can skip by without it. You're like, no, this is a real need. This is going to enable me to do the other things I want to do. So let's just embrace that and make sure that's planned for. It's really, really smart.LisaWell, and you know, I'll say that not having kids makes it much easier, of course. But I hope that there are ways that parents can schedule in little pieces of rest, even, of course, it's probably not like an entire Saturday. But, the more that families lean into aunties and community care, the more that that space can be carved out. VirginiaSo let's talk about the auntie piece. Is it just something, like, because these friends live next door and they had kids, you found yourself playing that role? How do you cultivate being an auntie? LisaThat's a great question. For me it was kind of both always going to happen and a conscious choice. I grew up in a big family. I'm one of six kids. I spent a lot of time babysitting as a kid for both my siblings and all the kids in my town, and some of my siblings are a lot older than me, so I became an aunt in my teens, and so I've always had kids in my life. Really, I can't think of a time when I didn't have little ones around, which I think is a real benefit, not a lot of people have that kind of life. And I was raised by early childhood educators. My mom is a teacher. My grandma was a preschool teacher. My other grandma is a teacher. There are a lot of teachers in my family, and a lot of them worked with little kids, so there are a lot of resources available to me.But then I also did have to make some conscious choices. I think that one of the early things that happened for me was one of my best friends asked me to be her child's godmother, and that kid is now 17. I know, she's a teenager, oh my god. So that relationship in my 20s started to condition me to think: How do I really show up for a family? How do I really show up for a child that's not my own child? And then when we moved into cohousing, which was in 2019 right before the pandemic started. We knew that we would be involving ourselves more in the life of a family. More on Lisa's childful lifeAt that time, my partner and I were hoping to have kids, and I ended up losing a lot of pregnancies. We decided to not become parents, but so we were initially envisioning sort of raising our kids together, right? And then when my partner and I decided not to have kids, one of the things that we sort of decided to pivot toward is like, well, we're going to really invest in these kids who live in our community, which we already were, because the pandemic hit and we were a bubble. So many people know the story. All the adults are working full time. There's no childcare. There are little kids. So it was really all hands on deck during that time, and it really pushed our community into a structure of lots and lots of interdependence around childcare and I spent a lot of time with these kids when they were really little, and that really cemented some bonds and forced us to make some very conscious decisions about how we want to be involved in each other's lives. To the point that once you get very involved in the lives of kids, you can't exit. Like, even if you wanted to. And so that changes your whole life trajectory. Moving to Mexico is off the table for me and my partner until these kids are at least out of the house, and that's many years down the road, right? It would be harmful for us to separate from these kids at this point. So, there are conscious decisions and just sort of happenstance. And I think for anybody who's interested in becoming an auntie or recruiting an auntie: Every situation is kind of different. But the piece about making conscious decisions is really important and requires sometimes scary conversations where we have to put ourselves out there and be vulnerable and take risks to let our loved ones know that we would like to form these kind of relationships. VirginiaAs someone on the side with the kids, my fear would be that I'm asking this huge favor, and like, oh my gosh, what an imposition. Because kids are chaos and these friends have a lovely, child-free life--I love my children, standard disclaimer. LisaKids are total chaos.VirginiaKids are always in whatever vortex of feelings and needs that that particular age and stage requires and asking someone to show up for that is, it's big. It's big.LisaWell, I definitely can't speak for all childless people, definitely not. But there are a lot of aunties who read The Auntie Bulletin, several thousand people who read The Auntie Bulletin, and a lot of shared values there in our community. Something that I think is a common feature among people who are aunties, or who want to be aunties, is: We really recognize how much we benefit from being in relationship with families. There are a lot of people, myself included, who were not able to have children and really want to have a child-ful life. We would feel a loss if we didn't have kids in our lives. And so this was something that I was reckoning with during the pandemic, when my partner and I were providing really a lot of childcare for another family. People would ask me: Do you feel like you're getting taken advantage of? What are you getting in return? What I realized during that time was, I'm getting paid back tenfold, because I get to have these kids in my life for the rest of my life, but I don't have to do the hard stuff. And that's really important. Parenting, I don't have to tell you, is very hard. As a person with chronic illness and disability at this point, I'm very glad that I don't have kids, because I don't think actually that I have the stamina. It's not about capacity for love, it's just about straight up physical energy. And so I'm able to have the benefits as an auntie of being parent-adjacent, without the cost. So I'm the winner in that transaction. And I think a lot of aunties think that way.VirginiaWell, that's really encouraging to hear. And I think, too, what you're talking about is just having really good communication, so people can say what they can do and also have their boundaries honored when they have to set a limit. That's key to any good relationship, so it would apply here too. Subscribe to Burnt Toast! LisaYeah, totally.VirginiaThinking about other barriers that come up. I've been reading, and I know you're a fan too, of Katherine Goldstein, and she's been writing such interesting critiques right now of how youth sports culture really derails families' abilities to participate in community. That's a whole fairly explosive topic, because people are really attached to their sports. So, I'll save the specifics of that for some time I have Katherine on to discuss this. Are youth sports a diet? Yes, absolutely. And we are not a sports family, but when she wrote about it, I immediately recognized what she meant, because every fall I noticed that my kids' friends become much less available for play dates because it's soccer season. And it's like, waiting for when soccer practice will be over, so that so-and-so might come over. Suddenly, even as a non-sports family, I feel like I'm loosely revolving around these schedules. And to bring it back to your work: That is one aspect of parenting culture that is really feeding into this isolation problem and this lack of community problem. This way that we've decided parenting has to be so intensive and performative around sports makes people actually less available to their communities. So this is a long way of asking my question: Do you think what we're really talking about here is a problem with the institution of marriage or the institution of parenting, or is it a bit of both?LisaThat's so interesting. I do think that youth sports is, like, by far, the kind of biggest engine of this. But there also are families that are, like, deep, deep, deep into youth performing arts that would have the same kind of function.Virginia Dance is another big one. Competitions taking up every weekend.LisaOr youth orchestra, sometimes those can be incredibly consuming and also incredibly expensive. So going with the grain of the parents that are really hyper investing in their kids activities: They will find community in those places often, right? It's a sort of substitute community for the length of the season, or whatever. And then my question is: What's the culture within those spaces? Is it like, hyper competitive? Is it about getting to the national championship? Is there a sense of community? Is there a sense of supporting kids around resilience when things don't go the way that they want them to? The cultures within these spaces matter. And I think it just ties back to the way that the nuclear family is a diet. Because we are so deeply incentivized to be fearful in our culture and to treat our problems with money, goods, services, activities. And the fear, I think, for a lot of parents, is that their kids are going to not have a good and happy life. So then there's what Annette Lareau, an educational researcher, calls concerted cultivation, particularly among more bourgeois middle class families of trying to schedule kids to the hilt, to make sure that they get every opportunity in life, and they can therefore succeed through every hurdle, and never have any adversity. Or that the adversity that they have is character building adversity in some way. And so I think that the hyper-involvement in kids activities does come from fear that's motivated by capitalism. And is that an issue of parenting culture or marriage culture or capitalist culture or gender culture?VirginiaAll of it. Yes. I mean, one thing I think about, too, is how these activities create their own community. But it's a very homogenous community. The child-free folks aren't there, because it's only soccer families or dance families or whatever. And you're only going to get families who can afford to do the activity. So it's a self-selecting group. This is not to say I'm doing a great job cultivating a more diverse community for my kids. I live in a white majority town. This is hard for all of us. We're not saying you all have to quit your sports! But if that's your primary community, that is going to narrow things in a in a way that's worth reflecting on. To bring this a little more fully into the Burnt Toast space, where we talk about diet as metaphor, but also diets specifically: One question I am asked a lot from the aunties in the Burnt Toast community, is, "How do I show up for the kids in my life that are not my own, I don't get to make the parenting calls, but for whom I still want to model anti-diet values?" Maybe there's stuff the parents are doing with food that's sending a weird message, or dieting in the home, that kind of thing. LisaWell, my sense is for myself—and I try to preach this gospel at The Auntie Bulletin— is that there are a lot of these moments for non-parents who are really deeply invested in the lives of kids, where it's not our call. And it's just a tricky terrain for aunties or any kind of allo-parental adults who are involved in the lives of kids who aren't their own kids. I'm really fortunate that most of my friends are pretty on board with an anti-diet philosophy. The people who are close to me, where I'm really involved in feeding kids are on the same page. But it comes up in other ways, right? Where I might have a different perspective than the parents. My sense is really that aunties do need to follow parents' lead that it's actually quite important to honor parents' decision makings for their kids. And we can be sort of stealthy ninjas around how we disrupt cultural conditioning more broadly. So I'm not super close to their parents, but we've got some kids in our neighborhood who are buddies with the kids who are a big part of my life. And those neighborhood kids get a lot of diet conditioning at home. There's this little girl, she's in fourth grade, and she's always telling me about her mom's exercise and saying that she can't get fat and she can't eat that popsicle and things like that, which is really heartbreaking to witness. And it's exactly that kind of situation where it's like, I'm invested in this as a just a member of our society, but I also care about these kids, and it's just not my call, you know? So I can just say things like, "Well, I like my body. I feel good that I have a soft body and I'm going to have another brownie. It tastes really good." And just kind of speak from my own experience, where I'm not necessarily trying to argue with their parents, or trying to convince the kid of something different. I'm just modeling something different for them. And I think it's totally fine to say, "In my house, you're allowed to have another brownie if you want one!" VirginiaThat modeling is so powerful. Having one example in their life of someone doing it differently, can plant that seed and help them reframe, like, oh, okay, that's not the only way to think about this conversation. That's really useful.LisaAnd I think affirming difference whenever we have the opportunity to do so is important. When a kid comments on somebody's body size or shape, you can just always say, "Isn't it great how people are different? It's so wonderful. There's so much variety."VirginiaRelated to modeling and fostering anti-diet values: I think there is a way that this collective approach to living and being in community with each other runs quite counter to mainstream narratives around what is good behavior, what are social expectations, and which groups do we let take up space. I'm thinking about how the group of soccer moms is allowed to be a community that everyone has paid to participate in, while the Black neighborhood having a block party might have the cops called on them. So, talk a little bit about how you see collectivism as also an act of radicalism.LisaYeah, thank you for that question. It's such a good one. A soccer community that is literally pay to play, where there are increasing tiers of elitenes—that is coded as very respectable in our society. Whereas a block party in a neighborhood of color is coded as disrespectable, unrespectable, disreputable. The music is loud and the people are being inconsiderate and their bodies are hanging out. There is all of this stigma around collectivism. I find for myself it's very insidious and subtle, the ways that collectivism is stigmatized. I have a theoretical allegiance to collectivism, but it takes having to actually ask for help to notice our friction and our resistance to that. You were talking about that earlier in the follow up to your divorce. And I've had that experience, when I've needed to ask for help around my disability and chronic illness, and there's all of a sudden this feeling of like, oh, I shouldn't ask for help. Oh, there's something wrong with that. And I think that there actually is a dotted line there between our resistance to asking for help and that feeling like we're doing something bad and anti-Blackness, anti-brownness, anti-queerness. Community is so, so essential for queer folks who have had to find their own family, choose their own community for for for generations. There's this kind of whiff of disreputability around collectivism, and these narratives around these kids are running wild and bodies are hanging out and the music's too loud, and like, what's going on there? What are they eating? VirginiaThere are so many ways we police it all.LisaIt's all really, really policed. I think that's really well put. So I think it's important to reclaim collectivism and reframe collectivism as legitimate, valuable, important, meaningful. Collectivism is something that a lot of people who live in dominant white communities have actually had taken from us through the medium of compulsory individualism. We need to reclaim it, and we need to not stigmatize it in all the communities that are around us and our neighbors.VirginiaMaybe instead, we should be looking at other communities as examples to emulate.LisaAs resources, absolutely. The disability community as well. VirginiaI think that's really helpful, and I'm sure it gives folks a lot to think about, because it just continues to show up in so many small ways. Even as you were describing that I was thinking about the stress response that kicks in for me after I host a gathering, and my house is left in whatever state it's left in. And it's like, of course, the house is messy. You just had 12 people over, and there are seltzer cans laying around and throw pillows out of place. That's because you lived in your house. You used it. But there's this other part of my brain that's so conditioned to be like, well, the house has to be tidy. And now it looks like you're out of control. But it's that kind of thing, that inner policing we do, that is very much related to this larger societal policing that we participate in.LisaAbsolutely, yeah.VirginiaAny last tips for folks who are like, okay, I want to be doing more of this. Particularly folks who want to connect with child free folks, or for child free folks who are listening, who want to connect with more families with kids. Any little nudges, baby steps people can take towards building this?LisaMy big nudge is to practice courage, because it's scary to put yourself out there. You have to be vulnerable when you ask to build a relationship that's deeper with people. And I think it actually is analogous, in some ways, to forming romantic relationships. You have to take some risks to say what you want, and that's a scary thing to do, but there are lots and lots of people out there who want to be more involved in the lives of families. And there are lots and lots of families out there who need more support.VirginiaWhen you were talking about the pandemic, I was like, I would have killed for an auntie. LisaEvery family needs an auntie. Two adults I love, Rosie Spinks and Chloe Sladden who both have wonderful newsletters, have been writing about this lately, that even having two adults is just not enough to run a household in the structure of society that we live in. I think that that's right, even if you've got a man who's pulling his weight, to crack open a whole other can of worms.Why Fair Play didn't work for ChloeVirginiaWhich, yeah.LisaThey're rare, but it does happen, and even then, it's not enough. We actually need more adults to make communities run than we get with the way nuclear families are set up. So it's a really worthy thing to seek out aunties, and for aunties to seek out families, and it's just a little bit scary. And you also have to be persistent, because when we offer, parents will usually say no. Like they don't believe us. They think their kids are too wild and whatever. So parents have to persist and and families need to persist in being welcoming. VirginiaI would also add on the parent side, as much as I appreciated what you said before about aunties have to respect parents having the final call on stuff: It's also an exercise in us having to loosen up a little. Not everything is going to go exactly the way you want it to go. The bedtime might look differently, meals might happen differently, there might be more or less screens, and we have to be less attached to those metrics of parenting and touchstones of our parenting day, and realize that the benefits of our kids getting to be with other people, way outweighs whether or not they eat three cookies or whatever it is. LisaYeah, the more that we live in community, the more we all learn to be flexible.VirginiaWhich is really the work of my life, learning to be more flexible. Work on flexibility with us!

Timmerie dives into the growing infertility crisis, exploring real solutions while confronting the challenges of IVF—from high costs and low success rates to the strain it can place on marriages. Episode Guide Why cover trending topics? (2:57) In vitro fertilization policies for the infertility crisis (14:51) For those who didn’t conceive right away — what’s your story of waiting for your little ones? (41:22) Resources mentioned: 21 children - all with surrogate mothers - taken from Arcadia couple amid investigation https://abc7.com/post/surrogacy-scandal-21-children-surrogate-mothers-taken-arcadia-couple-amid-investigation/17140359/ Scandinavia research – couples likely to divorce after failed IVF attempt https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/aogs.12317/abstract;jsessionid=15C5E2D0FEEDCE75FDF9374F26F76BD3.f03t02 Research and facts on IVF by The Heritage Foundation https://www.heritage.org/life/commentary/christians-practical-guide-reproductive-technology Past Episodes with Dr. Caldwell – infertility specialist and had IVF babies: https://relevantradio.com/?s=Susan+Caldwell Femmenessence MacaLife For all seasons fertility to Perimenopause https://symphonynaturalhealth.com/collections/femmenessence Fertility care find a NaPro doctor https://fertilitycare.org/find-a-mc NaPro Telemedicine https://naturalwomanhood.org/find-a-doctor/telehealth/ Shiloh - A Post-IVF Ministry https://www.shilohivf.com/about Emily Chapman – Healing when you can’t have children adoption? https://relevantradio.com/2023/10/healing-when-you-cant-have-children/ NaPro Fertility Surgeon on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/napro_fertility_surgeon/

If you listen to this podcast, chances are you are obsessed with purple (or blue in Scandinavia, Red in South America etc) and have an unhealthy fetish on all things Phantom. This podcast is something a little different; Jermayn Parker is joined by Sean Bassett and Nick Moles as we chat about collecting. We have interviewed and chatted with a few collectors like Pete Klaus (Episode #88), Jon Cookson (#75), Antonio DiDio (#258), Ohm Roy (#108) and Gary Horne (#64) but one thing we have not addressed much is what happens to our collections when it is time to pass the collection onto the next person?This may sound morbid, but what happens if you are not prepared & your collection is left to your loved ones to deal with? This podcast is to at least start the preparation and/or conversation so you can pass the collection onto the next generation.Some key discussion points we discuss are:The difference between an investment and a hobbyWhat items could be seen as an investmentSwedish death cleaningHow to sell your collection when that time comesWhat to do with your collection if you cannot sell itAnything else you would like to see discussed? Let us know and give us your thoughts. You can email us at chroniclechamber@gmail.com or chat with us via our social media profiles on Facebook, Twitter, and/or Instagram. We love comments and feedback from the Phantom phans from around the world. Make sure you stay with us, and do not forget to subscribe and leave a review on our podcast on our YouTube Channel. Support the show

Published in 1991, Faceless Killers was the first of Henning Mankell's crime novels featuring police inspector Kurt Wallander. The series changed the world of crime writing, introducing gritty social realism. The Wallander novels helped establish Scandinavia as the epicentre of crime fiction. Henning Mankell's former agent Anneli Høier speaks to Ben Henderson about the rise of Nordic Noir.Extracts from Faceless Killers are read by David Warner.Eye-witness accounts brought to life by archive. Witness History is for those fascinated by the past. We take you to the events that have shaped our world through the eyes of the people who were there. For nine minutes every day, we take you back in time and all over the world, to examine wars, coups, scientific discoveries, cultural moments and much more. Recent episodes explore everything from the death of Adolf Hitler, the first spacewalk and the making of the movie Jaws, to celebrity tortoise Lonesome George, the Kobe earthquake and the invention of superglue. We look at the lives of some of the most famous leaders, artists, scientists and personalities in history, including: Eva Peron – Argentina's Evita; President Ronald Reagan and his famous ‘tear down this wall' speech; Thomas Keneally on why he wrote Schindler's List; and Jacques Derrida, France's ‘rock star' philosopher. You can learn all about fascinating and surprising stories, such as the civil rights swimming protest; the disastrous D-Day rehearsal; and the death of one of the world's oldest languages.(Photo: Henning Mankell. Credit: Gideon Mendel/Corbis via Getty Images)

827 Show Notes: https://wetflyswing.com/827 Presented by:   Visit Idaho, Fish The Fly, Jackson Hole Fly Company, Patagonia Ever wonder why some anglers swear by tube flies or why that little hitch on the surface can make a salmon go wild? Today, we're hanging out with Jesper Fohrmann, the creative mind behind Fishmadman and one of the most passionate salmon anglers out there. Jesper's spent decades chasing Atlantic salmon and sea trout across Denmark, Norway, and the UK, perfecting flies and techniques that have earned a cult following from Scandinavia to Newfoundland. We dig into why tube flies can outfish hooks, what makes the riffle hitch so deadly in cold water, and how Jesper approaches leaders, rods, and presentation. Plus, we talk about his favorite patterns, the Scandinavian underhand style, and how all of it connects to steelhead fishing around the world.   Show Notes: https://wetflyswing.com/827

The French revolution was a cataclysmic event that changed the world forever, both politically and culturally. Even though it was far away, Scandinavia did not remain untouched by these continental developements. And perhaps that's only fair, since a dramatic Nordic event allegedly contributed to the revolution in the first place.

How to Build a Global Music Career: Tips From a Top Artist Manager With Christiana Sudano From Do Less Management Dive into international music management with Christiana Sudano, founder of Do Less Management, as we uncover how she bridges talent between Scandinavia and the US, creates global songwriter camps, and manages legacy artists like Donna Summer in the digital age. If you're passionate about artist management, global collaboration, or building international music careers, don't miss these unique insights! #MusicBusiness #ArtistManagement #SongwriterCamps Our mission here at MUBUTV is to help independent artists and music business professionals of the future to educate, empower and engage their music career.

On today's Top News in 10, we cover: Democrat leadership goes from dozens of media appearances a day into hiding as the left splits into dozens of takes on the shutdown. President Trump, Russ Vought, and Tom Homan move forward with federal cuts, the border wall, and the White House Ballroom. Our Senior Reporter Virginia Allen chimes in from eastern Europe & Scandinavia. Keep Up With The Daily Signal Sign up for our email newsletters:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.dailysignal.com/email⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠     Subscribe to our other shows:  The Tony Kinnett Cast: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/7AFk8xjiOOBEynVg3JiN6g⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  The Signal Sitdown: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://megaphone.link/THEDAILYSIGNAL2026390376⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Problematic Women:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://megaphone.link/THEDAILYSIGNAL7765680741⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Victor Davis Hanson: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://megaphone.link/THEDAILYSIGNAL9809784327⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠   Follow The Daily Signal:  X:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/intent/user?screen_name=DailySignal⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Instagram:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/thedailysignal/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Facebook:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.facebook.com/TheDailySignalNews/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Truth Social:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://truthsocial.com/@DailySignal⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/dailysignal?sub_confirmation=1⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠    Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and never miss an episode. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

HEADLINE: Defining Vikings and Early Expansion BOOK TITLE: American Vikings: How the Norse Sailed into the Lands and Imaginations of America AUTHOR: Martyn Whittock 100 WORD SUMMARY: The book discusses the Norse expansion ("Viking" being an activity, not a societal label) that began sweeping across Europe and the British Isles in the late 8th century. Key drivers of this extraordinary diaspora included population growth, pushback against the Christian Frankish Empire, and, most notably, the disruption of the Islamic silver trade from Baghdad, which funded Scandinavia's gift-giving economy. This silver shortage forced the Norse to raid monasteries and coastal settlements for precious metals. The westward movement extended to the British Isles, Iceland (settled 870s), and eventually Greenland (10th century) as the Norse continued their exploration.

This week we're diving into Scandinavia with returning guest Cami, who has mastered the art of using Choice Privileges Rewards to travel Norway and beyond. Cami shares how she's stretched her points further than she ever expected, what makes Choice Hotels such a hidden gem, and why the free breakfasts in Scandinavia alone make redemptions here such a win.We also chat about the variety of hotel brands within the Choice portfolio, how to find the best redemptions during peak seasons, and why planning ahead pays off big time in this part of the world. From breathtaking fjord cruises to iconic hikes, Cami paints an incredible picture of what makes Norway a dream destination—and how Choice points can make it far more affordable.You will NOT believe how many free nights she got and how many points were redeemed to make it happen!Mentioned in this Episode:Amazing HikingSample Norway ItineraryCami's Garden Island ArticleChoice Hotels Personalized Week Night BenefitOccupancy RulesI couldn't find any articles on this specifically but I ran a number of searches. Most hotel rooms in this region of Norway fit three people max (although many are only 2) but some Quality Hotel locations have a 4 person family room. Find Us On OnlineMary Ellen | JoFacebook GroupWonderland On Points BlogAffiliate Links30% off the CardPointers subscription!Chase/Capital One/Amex Card LinksFlyKitt- the BEST Jet Lag Solution!Comfrt Hoodie 15% OFF!Our Favorite Travel NecessitiesWe receive a small commission when you choose to use any of our links to purchase your products or apply for your cards! We SO appreciate when you choose to give back to the podcast in this way!

In Episode 96, the guys recap the Ballon d'Or winners of this week, talk about all the cultural significance, where voters got it wrong, as we're joined by Amir Bell who talks the Business of Football, being a delusional Arsenal fan, and much more at the timestamps below!LIKE. SHARE. COMMENT. SUBSCRIBE.Follow Us: @5asidemedia @wavyfooty on all platforms2:06 - Favorite +Least Favorite Part of Award +Growth of Women's Game9:17 - Significance of Dembele Winning17:17 - What Did Voters Get Wrong?20:46 - WAFCON Needs More Value26:00 - Journalist Voting28:00 - Significance of Black Spanish Kopa Winners30:08 - Scandinavia's untapped football potential35:30 - Future of spending in football38:26 - Prem Blackouts in England41:32 - Arsenal Fan Expectations48:47 - Bundesliga Segment52:12 - LALIGA Segment

Get an inside look at the (mostly) friendly rivalries of Scandinavia as a pair of tour guides from Sweden and Norway sit down for a chat. Then hear from a London Blue Badge guide about what to know — and love — about London's famous underground metro system. And listen in as we explore the grand castles of the Czech Republic. For more information on Travel with Rick Steves - including episode descriptions, program archives and related details - visit www.ricksteves.com.

Nick is joined by Rishi Persad for another edition of the popular racing podcast. First up today is top trainer Ed Walker, livid at the inaction of the Goodwood stewards on Wednesday, and the general level of rough riding in the UK. Also on today's show, with the continuing hullabaloo surrounding Scandinavia's non-participation in the Melbourne Cup, Nick talks to Jason Singh, owner of a three year old - Furthur - who has passed the vet checks for Australia. Plus, as the ROA board elections draw closer, Nick aims to give a platform to each of the 13 candidates, beginning today with Mouse Hamilton-Fairley. Finally, we hear the BHA's Tom Byrne in conversation with Nick Lightfoot on the authority's own podcast in response to Ruby Walsh's remarks on the NLD last Friday on the 'Poniros' rule.

Nick is joined by Jane Mangan to look at today's headlines from around the racing world. With the news that Scandinavia has likely not passed the veterinary panel for the Melbourne Cup, Nick talks to Racing.com's Michael Felgate, who broke the story before any official announcements. Also on today's show, George Boughey talks about why he believes Royal Lodge entry Bow Echo to be potentially the best he's trained. Plus, Australian based export Jack Pilkington has an interesting add to the debate surrounding raceday electrolytes, while Craig Williams shares his excitement over weekend Group One winner Sir Delius, JA McGrath survives the Typhoon in Hong Kong, and agent, consignor and breeder Luke Lillingston is this week's Weatherbys Bloodstock guest.

It's Day 3 of IAAPA Expo Europe, and this episode of Skip the Queue brings you insights from industry leaders. Hear from Andreas Andersen (Liseberg), Peter van der Schans (IAAPA EMEA), Laura Read (Marwell Zoo), Aaron Wilson (ProSlide), and Robbi Jones (Katapult) on resilience, creativity, and the future of attractions.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  https://www.liseberg.se/en/https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreas-veilstrup-andersen/Andreas Veilstrup Andersen is the CEO and President of the Liseberg Group, Sweden – operating one of Scandinavia's most visited amusement parks. Andreas has a legal and financial background and has been working in the amusement park industry since 2000.  First in several capacities at Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen, Denmark, later as Vice President of European operations at IAAPA EMEA in Brussels, Belgium. Andreas was the 2018 Chairman of IAAPA. He currently holds board positions at Farup Sommerland and Alsik Hotel in Denmark, as well as Momentum Leisure and Leo's Lekland, Europe's largest chain of FEC's. Andreas is heading up IAAPA's sustainability initiatives, and occasionally blogs on https://reflections.liseberg.se/.Plus, live from the Day 3 of the IAAPA Expo Europe show floor, we catch up with:Aaron Wilson - Vice President, Business Development Europe & Latin America, Proslide Technologyhttps://www.proslide.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaronlouiswilson/Robbie Jones - Insights Director, Katapaulthttps://www.katapult.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrrobbiejones/Peter van der Schans - Executive Director & Vice President, IAAPA EMEAhttps://iaapa.org/expos-and-events/expo-europehttps://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-van-der-schans-87715717/Laura Read - Chief Executive, Marwell Zoohttps://www.marwell.org.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-read-she-her-98110726/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best attractions and the amazing people that work in them. I'm your host, Paul Marden, and together with my co-host, Andy Povey, and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're here at day 3 of IAAPA Expo Europe. On today's show, Andy talks to Andreas Andersen, CEO and President of iseberg Group, about resilience. I meet Peter van der Schans from IAAPA EMEA, and we catch up with Laura Read from Marwell Zoo. First, let's go over to Andy.Andy Povey: So I'm joined now by Andreas Andersen, who's the chief exec of Liseberg, Scandinavia's most visited amusement park. Andreas, welcome to Barcelona. It's very good to see you here. Can you tell the listeners at home a little bit about Liseberg and what you do there?Andreas Andersen:  Sure. So I'm heading up one of the classic regional city-based parks in Northern Europe. So you have Liseberg, you have Tivoli in Copenhagen, you have Kornalund in Stockholm, and Linnanmaki in Helsinki. And we're part of this tradition of parks that have a very strong community base and a long history. Liseberg is 102 years old and three years old. And also parks that represent cultural heritage as well as reflect the cities we're located in. Lovely, lovely regional park in downtown Gothenburg. And if you haven't been, you should come visit.Andy Povey: Absolutely. I must admit, I haven't made it there myself yet. It's on the bucket list. So our theme for today's recording is about recovery and resilience. And recently, in your blog address, you wrote that you feel like for the past four years, you've been in constant crisis mode. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?Andreas Andersen: Well, I think a lot of executives or just people working in this industry can recognise that the last four or five years have been very turbulent, very, very, very volatile.Andreas Andersen: It all started with the pandemic in March 2020, we were at Lisa closed down for 17 months, so we didn't have any any business at all for for 17 months. Then we reopened in the middle of '21, very very hard— you know, with a lot of restrictions and an organisation that had not been you know operating anything for a long time and we also had to let go a lot of people. Then in '22, I think everybody experienced this giant rush, you know, that everybody wanted to get back into the park. So we couldn't really keep up with demand. And that was stressful in a different way. In '23, the market in the Nordics really suffered for some reason. It was a wit, summer and inflation, and interest rates.Andreas Andersen: And everything that went with, you could say, sort of the beginning of an economic downturn. And then, in 2024, our biggest investment, our biggest project expansion in the last 100 years, a large new indoor water park burned down. So it feels like these four or five years has really been this chain of crisis that we've had to get over and manage, basically.Andy Povey: Yeah, I mean, what we're hearing from people on the show floor is that the economic and political unrest that we have all over the Western world is creating some turbulence in the market. So talk to us a little bit more about the fire at Oceania. What happened?Andreas Andersen: We had been building the water park for almost three years, and we were six, seven weeks away from handover. It was some of the last works on the right installation that went wrong. It was a plastic welding that overheated, and these things happen, as you know.Andreas Andersen: Unfortunately, we lost a colleague in the fire and that was basically, you could say, that overshadowed, I would say, everything, especially in the first weeks. Andreas Andersen: That was devastating to all of us and obviously, especially his family. But soon after, we also had to make some decisions. You know, did we want to rebuild? How did we want to rebuild? At what pace? How would we finance? etc. etc. So you also very quickly move into the next phase of a crisis management and that is recovery. And we've been in that phase ever since. Andy Povey: Interesting. It's a devastating situation. I mean, your concern obviously has to be for the team and the people involved— not just those affected directly, but everybody on the floor who feels an emotional impact from this situation. So what tips would you give, as a leader, going through a situation like that, to anyone else listening who may be facing their own challenges?Andreas Andersen:  Well, I think I learned a lot during those weeks and months. And I think I learned that in a crisis, especially of this magnitude, everything becomes very naked. Everything becomes very raw. And you cannot really play a role as a leader. You have to be yourself. You have to be authentic. And it's okay to also show emotions and be caught up in this process of figuring out what to do with the project and the team and yourself when you meet challenges of this severity. Andreas Andersen:  So I would say be yourself, but also recognise that I always say that leadership in a crisis is a little bit like your biggest asset is the confidence that people have in you. And that confidence is something you build up over years. It's a little bit like a bank account that you can then draw on when the crisis hits. But you really have to make sure that you have something on that bank account. You can't borrow confidence. It's not up for loan. So you really, you know, crisis management, from a leadership perspective, actually starts a lot earlier than the crisis. It's about, you know, building a team that works well together, that trusts you and has confidence in you. And then, when the crisis hits, you know, you can draw on that trust, draw on that confidence. So I think that's two of the learnings that I had during this process.Andy Povey: I love the idea of the bank that you can draw on. We're making deposits in our bank every day, not just as a commercial leadership level, but a personal level as well. You need to have that resilience built in yourself. A lovely analogy. And I really love the idea of authenticity. So, if we move on now to talking a little bit more about what we do in an attraction, I think authenticity plays a really big part in that. So, how important is it for you to keep innovating at Liseberg?Andreas Andersen: It's super important because we are in a regional market. I mean, if you look at how our guests are composed, you know, we have 90% Swedish people and then 10%, maybe 12% in a good year from other, especially Nordic countries. But the majority are Swedish and about 60% of our total volume is actually from the local market. And if you want to attract the local market and you want to drive revisitation, Gothenburg is a large city, but it's not a huge city. You have to keep the product fresh. You have to reinvest, reinvent, and constantly adapt. And I think that's actually... part of the, you could say, the formula for these Nordic city-based parks that we've actually had to all reinvent, you know, throughout our history. I mean, Tivoli, that was founded in 1843, it was built by this crazy entrepreneur called Geo Carstensen.Andreas Andersen: And when Tivoli opened on the 15th of August, it was late, it was over budget, and it was not quite finished. And he got a question from a journalist, you know, asking him, you know, when will Tivoli be finished? And his response was, 'Never.' Tivoli will never be finished. And I think, you know, it's almost 200 years ago that he said this, but I think it encompasses sort of the real DNA of our industry that we have to constantly evolve with our guests and reinvent ourselves. And I think, again, that the city, the Nordic city-based parks have really been quite good at that.Andy Povey: Obviously, I mean, Liseberg with 100 years, Tivoli with almost 200 years. There's something good there. You're doing something right. So more recently, you've taken a position with, I'm going to pronounce this awfully, Leo's Lekland. Compare and contrast Liseberg to Europe's largest chain of family entertainment centres?Andreas Andersen:  I mean, there are a lot of similarities and also a lot of differences. I think what is interesting for me, you know, working with Leos is that it's, in many ways, the model is the same. I mean, you pay an entrance fee, you spend a few hours with your family, you may eat a lunch or buy an ice cream or a plush animal. So in many ways, it's the same. But I think, when we're talking about these attractions that are really designed for shorter visits, there is a convenience perspective to them that it's slightly different than, you know, visiting an amusement park or a theme park for a full day. I remember once I had a conversation with one of our competitors in this market, not FECs as such, but, you know, these shorter visits, you know, two, three-hour visit attractions, very often midway attractionsAndreas Andersen: And he said, 'What we sell is actually not.' necessarily an experience, it is two hours spent and I think that's a little bit of a different perspective on an attraction that you actually also go to, Leo's Lekland, to have your kids, you know, be really really tired when they get home, you know, in today's world, where everything is a lot of a lot of stuff is digital and and the kids sit there with their with the tablets and their phones and or their game consoles or they're online with their friends. I think play has a huge and important role to play in the development of motoric and social skills for kids. I think physical play will be something we're going to discuss a lot in the decades to come, because I think we lost a couple of generations the last 20 years. And I think that's a super dangerous thing. So getting back to your question, a lot of similarities, but there are also some differences and I've learned a lot by working with them.Andy Povey: Fantastic. The talk about play really resonates. We lost a year, maybe 18 months through COVID. I have 11-year-old twin girls. I love the idea that me taking them to our local FEC on a Saturday morning so I could recover from a hangover while they went and played was a really positive, good parent thing to do. So thank you for that. We're at the show. What are you looking forward to seeing when you get out on the show floor, when we eventually let you go out on the show floor?Andreas Andersen:  Oh! I very rarely have a plan. I like to just stroll around. Actually, I see it a little bit like visiting an amusement park. You shop for experiences and you see what happens. I think one of the great things about these expos is the fact that, and that's probably what I look most forward to, is that you meet your industry colleagues.Andreas Andersen:  A company like ours, Liseberg, we do not exist; we do not operate within a chain structure. We do not have a corporate mother that knows a lot about what we do. We do not have other parks that we can benchmark with. So these shows is also a little bit a way for us to get out of the bubble and meet other people that work with the same thing as we do. So it's actually not as much the expo floor or the events or the educational program as it is meeting the people. I enjoy.Andy Povey: Andreas, it's been great talking to you. Thank you very much for your time and have a fantastic show.Andreas Andersen:  And I wish you the very same. Thank you.Paul Marden: Now let's head over to the show floor. So we are here on the ProSlide stand, and I'm here with Aaron. Aaron, introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about ProSlide.Aaron  Wilson: Hi, nice to meet you. Thanks for coming in. I'm Aaron Wilson, Senior Vice President, Business Development, EMEA, with ProSlide. I've been with ProSlide for nine years. We're focused really on the design and innovation of rides. That's where we really form the nucleus of who ProSlide is.Paul Marden: Okay, so what are you launching here at this year's IAAPA?Aaron  Wilson:  Yeah, so let's walk over here to our model table. Where we have a large model of our newest feature, which is the Hive. We actually opened up two rides this year, one at Chimelong in China, the most attended water park in the world. Paul Marden: Wow. Aaron  Wilson:  And that's with a five-person family raft, everyone seated facing each other.Paul Marden: That's amazing. So you're going through this on a five-person ring kind of thing?Aaron  Wilson:  Exactly, a five-person tube. So it's a tight radius helix curve. So as you enter, you're entering into a completely open, basically cathedral space. But as you're dropping and turning very quickly, you're staying really stuck along the outside of the wall, feeling those centrifugal forces. And you have a 360-degree global view. So you're able to look forward, backwards, upwards, down. See everywhere where you came from and where you're headed.Paul Marden: It's amazing, isn't it? Because you've got transparent sides on it. So you can see outside as well.Aaron  Wilson:  Absolutely. And there's a ton of theming potential here. In the middle is a support structure. And so we're working on theming there in the middle, if we can. Special effects around the outside. In this case, it's transparent. Exactly.Paul Marden: You've got some amazing models on the table here. This is one of those rides that you can't really bring to IAAPA and experience in real life because we'd all have to be in our swimmers.Aaron  Wilson:  Unfortunately, yes.Paul Marden: But some amazing, amazing models. What's innovative about this? What's this bringing to the market, which is unusual?Aaron  Wilson:  So you have that 360-degree helix turn. We've completely opened it up. So normally in a turn, you can only see a few meters in front of you. In this case, it's a feature that's completely open as you're making that turn. And so you can see everywhere, right? Up and down, forwards, backwards. And that's really part of the differentiation. But obviously the biggest sensation is actually that experience you feel as you have those centrifugal forces around the outside. With a five-person boat, you're looking at about 800 pounds, and you're whipping around the outside, gaining tons of speed throughout. So it's really exciting. The additional interesting thing about this element is we're also doing a two-person tube and a small compact footprint.Aaron  Wilson:  So it's very adaptable for indoor parks or even outdoor parks that don't have a ton of space. That compact footprint gives a lot of flexibility in the design.Paul Marden: So you've got this in China at the moment, you say?Aaron  Wilson:  Yep, and one in the US. And there are a lot more to come in the next one to two years already programmed and open. So we're really excited about this for the water parks.Paul Marden: That's amazing. So we've been asking everybody to get their crystal ball out and tell us trends for 2026. Where do you think the market is going? What do you think that we can expect to see this time next year at IAAPA? Aaron  Wilson:  Water coasters. Water coasters are the big thing. Paul Marden: What on earth is a water coaster? Aaron  Wilson:  Yeah, well, let's head over here to another model table. We have a couple of examples here. So I would say, like in the last couple of years, specifically speaking about Europe, we've seen an amazing response to our water coaster technology using water propulsion. We call it the rocket blast.Paul Marden: Right.Aaron  Wilson:  And so what you have is a series of injectors placed along the uphill sections that actually push the boat uphill. That's amazing. And so with that technology, we're able to do a number of things. And this actually, this ride opened about a year and a half ago at Land of Legends in Turkey. This is, you know, one of the biggest things that will stand out to you here is, as you're looking around all the models, what's very common with a water park is you have—gravity-fed rides, meaning you climb a tower and use gravity to go down. Paul Marden:  This is very flat and long. Aaron  Wilson:  Exactly. This is built essentially on grade. There's no tower here. So, I mean, the first thing is accessibility. So now, as you know, there's no steps. You know, water parks are historically very difficult to meet accessibility. Paul Marden: Yeah. Do you know, I've never thought of that before. But of course, you need to climb the stairs to be able to get to the top of the tower.Aaron  Wilson:  So this case, this is called Turtle Coaster. And this is at Land of Legends. Our guests can walk or, you know, walk or wheel.Paul Marden: Yep.Aaron  Wilson:  As they want up this ramp. This is about four meters off grade. We have a little bit of a drop here. So this is a closed-circuit coaster, right? Meaning the guests are finishing and ending in the same location. Also something different from a water ride. Normally you're going up a tower and finishing in a pool. Here you're finishing and starting at the same location, much like a mechanical dry-growing coaster.Paul Marden: And this, just for listeners' benefit, this has got eight or nine turns in there. It's really, you know. It's going to be a normal coaster-type ride, isn't it?Aaron  Wilson:  This is a 420-meter-long coaster. You're looking at about a minute-and-a-half water ride, which is crazy. Most water rides are about 30 seconds, you know? So it's a really long experience. You have eight uphill last sections, along with what else is unique with our technology is we're able to incorporate these flat last sections. So much like a mechanical coaster has that launch element to it. We're able to do that with water propulsion. So right off the stop, you have this completely flat launch blast. Up, you're getting the elevation. You go around for 420 meters, a series of flying saucer features, uphill sections. Coming back into a water channel.Aaron  Wilson:  And landing in the landing pool, it picks you up on a moving station conveyor. So this conveyor is actually moving at a very slow pace. Guests are cutting off and getting back on.Paul Marden: This is not a lazy river, is it? That you're just sat around for a little while. This is going to hair around.Aaron  Wilson:  Absolutely not. And then here at Siam Park is another coaster here. We opened up in '23. Doolin. So you had two lanes.Paul Marden: Oh, wow.Aaron  Wilson:  And you're racing side by side throughout the experience.Paul Marden: That is amazing. Well, Aaron, look— it's been wonderful to meet you. Find out more about what you're doing here. Looks super, super exciting. I want to get my swimmers on and go and try some, but maybe not whilst we're here in Barcelona, but maybe one time soon.Andy Povey: So we're on the show floor again and I'm with Robbie Jones from Katapult. Robbie, please tell the listeners at home a little bit about Katapult, what you do with them.Robbie  Jones: So we design themed attractions, experiences and destinations. So that can be anything from theme parks all the way through to museums. And our— I guess our core competency is design stage, so pre-concept designs. We get involved quite a lot in theme parks that are very early stages. And my role in that is quite unique within the team of creatives and designers, in that I look towards the insights. So sometimes I work with feasibility partners to kind of pull together the economic requirements for a theme park or an attraction to exist. But more often than not, it's about the guest journey, the guest behaviour, how can we make the guest experience as best as possible by understanding information research that we might have already but also doing some primary research as well to make sure we're creating like that amazing moment for every person that walks through the door.Andy Povey: Fantastic. That sounds really, really impressive. Looking back over 2025, what are your key takeaways from this year so far?Robbie  Jones: Goodness, me. I think I'll speak with a lot of what the industry would say, which is it's been a little bit sticky in places in 2025. There's certainly been more maybes than yeses or nos in terms of projects. But I think we're starting to see things beginning to move. Someone's put some oil in the engine somewhere, which is great. And there's some really exciting projects coming up. Obviously, as a UK-based company, seeing the likes of Universal, Poodie Foo, setting up shop. It's going to be really interesting to see how that impacts not just the UK, but the European market as well.Andy Povey: I couldn't agree more. I really, really look forward to seeing that anticipated improvement in quality of experience that we'll get across the UK. So looking forward to '26 now, what are you anticipating as being the exciting things we're talking about in 12 months' time?Robbie  Jones: Gosh, I mean, I think there will be an element of a quiet time, I think, especially with the new build theme parks, whether that's in the UK or, of course, in the Middle East. I think there'll be an element of quiet that we need to get used to in terms of waiting to see what the next big thing is or the next IP that's going to be in those rides. But I certainly see a lot more positive vibes coming out of the industry. I think we'll see more exciting local experiences, maybe not just big global ones. And yeah, just on the horizon, maybe plenty more opportunity and positivity.Paul Marden: It has been my first IAAPA Expo, and I've had a whale of a time. And I am joined here by Peter van der Schans, the VP and Exec Director of IAAPA EMEA. Peter. Tell me a little bit about what the show has been like for you because I've had an amazing time.Peter van der Schans: Well, so did I. The funny thing is we've always worked so hard on these expos. It takes a hell of a lot of time and it all comes back in this one week. And once you exit that plane or train or however you arrive, you start in a bus and then it's over before you know it.Peter van der Schans: And the week is done and you fall in this big black hole. That's where we're going now. So it's been a wonderful week and it's great to see all our members and every industry leader that is visiting us. We're a small team at IAAPA. We're not a huge organisation, but we have our members supporting us. It's a team effort from both IAAPA and our members, basically. And it's only pride.Paul Marden: One of the most important parts of the show, I think, is the educational side of what you do. There's been a big educational program. Are there any big themes that you've spotted coming out of that education strand?Peter van der Schans: So the education program actually is built with our members and by our members. So, of course, we guide it and shape it. But it's actually done by our members. So it's our members saying, 'Hey, this is where I have issues with. This is the trends I see. This is where I think this is going, which makes it always accurate because we have that industry knowledge by our members.' So in that sense, what we saw this year, there's a lot of focus on AI, obviously, the hot topic nowadays. Paul Marden: It's not a single interview I do where somebody hasn't dropped AI into it. So it's a hot topic.Peter van der Schans: It's a hot topic. And I'm very curious also to see where it's going because right now, if you see execution, the focus is much on back office. For example, Parks Reunidos for example, shared on stage, that they can now predict their next, the next day in visitor numbers with accuracy of 93% which is perfect. Things like that. But I'm curious exactly to see how it's going to evolve in the future to the front end. So what is that visitor going to see in the future? Whenever I go to a theme park, for example, will I be recognised by my name? And if I ride a ride, will the animatronic know my name, for example? Things like that. I think there's limitless possibilities.Peter van der Schans: And we're just at the verge of the beginning. And it's also so, so, so excited about that education program that we share what we know and we work together to get to that point to make it better. Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. The collaboration in this sector is just amazing. And IAAPA is just the living proof of that. So many smiling faces. You know that there were competitors together on stands just chatting and enjoying. It's a really enriching experience seeing everybody work together.Peter van der Schans: It is, it is. And the funny thing is I've worked in this industry since I was 16. I started as a ride operator. I didn't know any better than when I had an issue when I became supervisor and manager that I could call the park at the other end of the country and ask, like, 'Hey, how are you dealing with this?' And they helped me. And then I worked at the cinema industry and suddenly I realised that that is not that common in all industries, to say it lightly. It was much more competitive and I didn't want to share anything and really opened my eyes in a way that I realised, like, 'hey, this is special'. And also made me realise that IAAPA plays a big part in that as well, as an organisation to bring all those people together, to provide that platform to work together.Paul Marden: Yes, the facilitators of the community, aren't you? I'm going to ask you a slightly controversial question here. Outside of show hours, what has been your favourite party or event? And you can name drop any one of them. It's absolutely fine. Nobody will be upset with you.Peter van der Schans: I must say the ballpark reception, obviously for the British people. Always good beers. The Tuesday events with the opening ceremony, where we really kick off the week. They made me dance again. I don't recommend watching that back, but that's always just a fun, fun morning where we really kick off the week with a big energy, with a nice connection to the host city as well. Peter van der Schans: It's always fun to work on that and to execute that, but also the evening event, the opening reception where we gather. Well, this year we had 1,400 industry professionals coming together and mixing, mingling in Tibidabo. Without rain, thankfully. Paul Marden: Well, yes, this is the thing. So I was watching the skies thinking this could go really badly wrong. The BBC weather forecasts were not looking good. Peter van der Schans: There's this tradition in Barcelona that you bring eggs to nuns and they make sure you'll have good weather. We did that. We brought three dozens.Paul Marden: Took a lot of eggs. There was a lot of eggs broken in the making of this party. But you did very well. We're at the end. And everybody gets to heave a big sigh of relief that the show's done. It's in the can. But there's also a touch of sadness and fondness looking forward to what comes next. So next year, what have you got coming up first? I understand there's something in the Middle East.Peter van der Schans: Yeah, absolutely. We actually last year at this expo in Amsterdam, we announced the launch of our newest expo, IAAPA Expo Middle East, which is actually the first time in IAAPA's history that we built a new expo from scratch.Peter van der Schans: Never done that before, our members and and people in the industry ask us year after year like, 'When is IAAPA coming to the Middle East?' Of course, there's a huge amount of investments going on in that region. It's crazy. And in that sense, we we simply listen to our members and decide that this is the time we need to go. And we're excited to get closer and closer to the actual launch of the event in March in 2026 in Abu Dhabi.Paul Marden: So March 2026, Abu Dhabi is our next event. But there is another event coming next year. IAAPA is coming to London, which I'm very pleased about. Tell me, is the planning all starting on Monday? Are you already a long way through planning? Plans you can share with me about what's coming up in London?Peter van der Schans: We will have an exciting program for sure, but we're not there yet with with the actual education programme. That takes a little bit more of time, but we do have the show Florencial already and that's looking to be another record-breaking show. What I think also remarkable is that we will have one third more education than we will have in our previous show. So we always had two conference rooms— we'll have three in London. So we'll have actually quite a big increase in our educational offerings as well.Paul Marden: That's amazing. I cannot wait. This has been my first IAAPA, but it won't be my last IAAPA. I think I can confidently say that. So grateful for you and the team inviting us along as Skip the Queue to be part of what you've been doing. We've had an amazing time and I cannot wait to see you again in London.Peter van der Schans: Thank you very much and happy to have you here.Paul Marden: We are here at the end of day three of IAAPA Expo Europe. We've had a wonderful time. Andy Povey: I'm broken. Paul Marden: Oh man, I'm going home a broken man. The voice is barely holding on. I am here with Laura Read from Marwell Zoo. Welcome to Skip the Queue, Laura.Laura Read: Hello. Thank you for having me.Paul Marden: Laura, what's it been like for you? What's the benefit of coming to IAAPA for you?Laura Read: So this is my first IAAPA. For me, this was all around looking at what's new for visitor attractions, what's innovative, what's coming up, and what could we potentially bring to the visitors of Marwell Zoo that might be exciting and might drive more visitors to come to us, really, ultimately. It's all about, for us, diversification, keeping the zoo product at the core of our offer, obviously, but seeing how we can augment that with other things.Paul Marden: So what can we expect? Is it going to be a 4D immersive ride experience? Water slides? Or are you looking for something that enriches the in-real-life experience for you? And it's a bit more low-tech.Laura Read: Oh, I'd love to put in like a water park. Do you know what? That's something like the coolest stalls. Like going around going, 'oh, I'd love to design a water park. That's so fun. No, no'. So for us, it's really about looking at sort of smaller, lower-level, new attractions that we can bring in, you know, we're primarily a family audience. So it's what do kids want to play on? You know, I've seen some really cool little ride-on Jeeps that we think would work really, really well because we also want to stay true to our ethos. You know, Marwell's built its reputation on our conservation work, our hands-on conservation work in the field, you know, reversing species decline and also around sustainability. So sustainability is really core to our offer.Laura Read: This is not about turning Marwell into a theme park or a water park or anything like that, because the animals are still very much the stars of the show, as is the conservation work. But it's about how we can best utilise our space to provide that density of guest experience. And I think seeing all the things here today. That's where the inspiration comes in.Paul Marden: I think it's really interesting, isn't it? Because when you take your kids to the zoo, you need some space. You need a palate cleanser between the animals, don't you? To give the kids time to burn off some energy, to do something a little bit different. And then they come back re-energised and you're hiding the vegetables. You're teaching them about the conservation efforts and all the really important stuff that you do, but hidden around lots of things that keep them happy and engaged in what's going on.Laura Read: Exactly. The problem with zoos is the animals— they don't care that they're the exhibits.Laura Read: And, you know, we are a primarily outdoor attraction. Extremes of heat, rainy days, animals disappear. We know that. We know that the perennial problem is: I didn't see any animals because we have really, really high animal welfare levels and standards. And if those animals want to go off show and take themselves off to bed or away from the public view, they all can and should and do. So we need something that can keep kids particularly engaged and entertained, hopefully getting across a bit of education and messaging as well at the same time. That's a massive tick in the box. But, you know, it fills in the gaps when those animals just aren't playing ball.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. Andy, what's been the highlight of day three for you, mate?Andy Povey: So I think it's actually talking to Laura.Paul Marden: Such a charmer.Andy Povey: Let me finish. Let me justify. It's really picking up the fact that this isn't just a theme park show. Yeah. There are elements for everything you could possibly do any day out any attraction, even in any shopping centre or any place you go to where there's large crowds of people— so it's all of that kind of stuff. I think is it's refreshing to see it through someone else's eyes, through our conversations.Laura Read: I was going to say, 'I have to say,'  Before I was chief exec at Marwell, I ran a really large, shopping centre like retail, leisure, events, and destination. And I'm amazed that this is not on more commercial real estate people's radar. I look to see if there's anyone from a previous company here, then there isn't on the attendees list. And I'm like, 'Wow,' this is all the stuff that we should have been thinking about five years ago, ten years ago, when we were realising that diversification from a retail point of view is so important because of online shopping. So that's really interesting what you say. It's not just the theme parks.Andy Povey: No, absolutely not. It's all about the day out. And ultimately, that's all. We're all here to do is we work in a fun industry, and fun doesn't have to just be an amusement park.Paul Marden: Yeah, I found it really interesting. Seeing the things that I've seen has stretched my definition of what a visitor attraction actually is, because it is more than just a theme park. As you wander around and you see the different exhibitors, I was expecting to see... The ride designers and some of the really cool tech that I've seen. But there was other stuff that I've seen that I just hadn't expected.Andy Povey: No, I mean, I was chatting yesterday to a guy who supplies park benches and litter bins.  You see them everywhere. Paul Marden: I say the park bench thing. I remember when I was working at the Botanic Gardens in Wales as it was being built, the importance of the park bench and sitting on them. And they were beautiful park benches, but they were also super comfy. The importance of a park bench, like a good toilet, can't be underestimated.Laura Read: You can always tell someone who works in visitor attraction operations, when they go to any other visitor attraction, they take pictures of the bins. I think that is an absolute giveaway. When I go places with my family and the kids are there, taking pictures of animals or taking pictures of each other or whatever they're doing. And I'm there. Oh, I'm just gonna take a picture of that sign. You know, like.Andy Povey: I have another confession to make. I had a conversation with my wife who took the kids to an attraction a couple of weeks ago. And I was most distressed that she hadn't taken a picture of the till for me.Paul Marden: Oh, you would know what the part number and everything about that till, wouldn't you? Such a retail geek.Paul Marden: Laura, thank you so much for joining us on Skip the Queue. It has been delightful. I feel that there might be a full episode coming on, talking about the zoo, if you'll have me.Laura Read: Yes, absolutely. Bring it on. Paul Marden: Oh, wonderful. Thank you so much.Andy Povey: Andy, take me to the airport.Paul Marden: If you enjoyed this episode, please like and comment in your podcast app. It really helps more people to find us. Show notes and links to all our guests this week are available on our website, skipthequeue.fm. It's been a massive team effort to take Skip the Queue to IAAPA. A huge thank you to Emily Burrows and Sami Entwistle, Steve Folland and Wenalyn Dionaldo, Claire Furnival and Andy Povey, as well as Erica Washington-Perry and her team at IAAPA Global Communications.Paul Marden: Next week, we're wrapping up our IAAPA theme, talking to Choni Fernandez, Chief Sustainability Officer at PortAventura Entertainment, and Jakob Wahl, President and CEO of IAAPA. See you then.  The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Nick is joined by Rishi Persad for another edition of the popular racing podcast. First up today is top trainer Ed Walker, livid at the inaction of the Goodwood stewards on Wednesday, and the general level of rough riding in the UK. Also on today's show, with the continuing hullabaloo surrounding Scandinavia's non-participation in the Melbourne Cup, Nick talks to Jason Singh, owner of a three year old - Furthur - who has passed the vet checks for Australia. Plus, as the ROA board elections draw closer, Nick aims to give a platform to each of the 13 candidates, beginning today with Mouse Hamilton-Fairley. Finally, we hear the BHA's Tom Byrne in conversation with Nick Lightfoot on the authority's own podcast in response to Ruby Walsh's remarks on the NLD last Friday on the 'Poniros' rule.

In this episode of Skip the Queue, Andy Povey sits down with Jérôme Giacomoni, co-founder and Chairman of AEROPHILE, the world leader in tethered gas balloons and immersive aerial experiences. Jérôme shares the story of how AEROPHILE began with a simple idea, to “make everybody fly” and grew into a global company operating in multiple countries, including France and the U.S.Tune in to hear about the company's signature attractions, including tethered balloon flights, the innovative Aerobar concept, and high-profile projects such as how you can experience flying the Olympic cauldron in Paris. Jérôme also shares how AEROPHILE has leveraged its unique platform to explore scientific initiatives like air-quality and climate-change monitoring and how he Integrates unique revenue streams from sponsorship and advertising.Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your host is Paul Marden, with co host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website SkiptheQueue.fm.If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review, it really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on LinkedIn. Show references:  https://www.aerophile.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/jerome-giacomoni-3074b7/Jérôme Giacomoni is co-founder of Groupe AEROPHILE and Chairman of AEROPHILE SAS. Since 1993, he has led the company to become the world leader in tethered gas balloons and balloon flights, operating iconic sites in France, the U.S., and Cambodia, and flying over 500,000 passengers annually. He also pioneered “flying food-tainment” with the Aerophare and Aerobar. Jérôme is a member of IAAPA, serves on the board of SNELAC, and is a Team France Export ambassador, earning multiple awards for entrepreneurship and innovation. Plus, live from the Day 2 of the IAAPA Expo Europe show floor, we catch up with:Rheanna Sorby –Marketing & Creative Director,  The Seasonal Grouphttps://theseasonalgroup.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/rheanna-sorby-seasonal/Sohret Pakis – Polin Waterparkshttps://www.polin.com.tr/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sohretpakis/Thomas Collin – Sales Manager, VEX Solutionshttps://www.vex-solutions.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-collin-18a476110/Peter Cliff – CEO // Founder, Conductr.https://conductr.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/peter-cliff/Laura Baxter – Founder, Your CMOhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/laura-baxter-4a756466/Josh Haywood – Resort Director, Crealy Theme Park & Resorthttps://www.crealy.co.uk/https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-haywood-68463630/ Transcriptions:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, the podcast about the world's best attractions and the people that work in them. I'm your host Paul Marden, and with my co-host Andy Povey and roving reporter Claire Furnival, we're here at IAAPA Expo Europe. In today's episode, I go on a trip on Santa's Enchanted Elevator with the Seasonal Group, and Claire meets Peter Cliff from Conductr. But before all that, let's head over to Andy.Andy Povey: Good morning, everybody. I'm joined today by Jerome Giacomoni from AEROPHILE for our French listeners. I hope I've got that right. Jerome is the chief exec of AEROPHILE and has been the co-founder and president of AEROPHILE. And AEROPHILE supply helium-based balloon observation opportunities. I probably got the marketing on that completely wrong, Jerome. So please, can you share with our listeners what AEROPHILE is all about?Jerome Giacomoni: So AEROPHILE is a company I created with Mathieu Gobbi, my partner, 32 years ago, with a very simple idea, make everybody fly, you know, and we use a balloon to fly. So we have a tethered balloon. We have a huge, big balloon inflated with helium, a gas lighter than air. And we go up to more or less 150 meters high. up to 30 passengers. So we are linked to the ground with a cable, and the cable is linked to a winch. So you have to imagine that you have a winch that— when we go up—pulls when we go down. This is the exact opposite of an elevator because the balloon wants to go higher and higher. We have a lifting force of four tons.Andy Povey:Wow.Jerome Giacomoni:Yes, it's a big one. And so we need a cable to keep it. And thanks to this lifting force, we can fight against the wind.Jerome Giacomoni: And so the balloon can swing when you have some wind because the balloon is just pulled by the cable itself.Andy Povey: And trust me, listeners, they look absolutely spectacular. Just before we started recording, I was admitting to Jerome that I'm scared of heights. So I've stood and watched. The dining balloon, Futuroscope, never managed to pluck up the courage to try it myself.Jerome Giacomoni: This is another concept, Andy. So we have built two concepts. One is a tethered balloon, a real one with helium, with a cable, with a winch, and we fly by ourselves. The balloon flies by itself, okay? We did another concept 20 years after we created our company, so 10 years before now, in 2013, which is what we call the aero bar. It's a flying bar, and you have an inflatable balloon. to cover the gondola, but it's a fake. This is a real elevator, and you have a gondola with some winches and a metallic structure, and you go up and down. So what you saw in Futuroscope is not a balloon. It's a real elevator.Jerome Giacomoni: And the one you can see in Disneyland Paris, Disney World, Orlando or San Diego Zoo are a real balloon named a tethered balloon. So I'm glad you fell down into the trick. You caught me. Yes, I'm glad about that. But we have really two different concepts.Andy Povey: But the concept, the thing that the guest is experiencing, isn't really related to whether it's a balloon or a lift.Jerome Giacomoni: No. i think it's very different okay i think the aerobar is fun and you have the feet in the sky you feel the thrill of height and everything but you stop at 35 meters it's it's quite high for a ride but it's not a real flight And I think the balloon is a real flight. We have a balloon in Paris. We have a balloon in Budapest, Berlin. And you see the city from the sky at 150 meters high, which is very high. So you really experience a flight. With the aerobar, you have a ride, okay? So both of them are related to the sky, are related to the view, but one is really a flight, the other one is really a ride.Andy Povey: That makes absolute sense.Andy Povey: It doesn't reassure me on my fear of heights anymore, that I would like to go up three times, four times taller, higher than the one I saw first. Very interesting. So, listeners, we're often talking about technology and attractions. There's a huge amount of talk about augmented reality, about AI, about motion simulators. The reason, Jerome, we asked you to come and talk to us is because you don't do any of that. No—your experience is fantastic and it's new and it's unique, but there's no technology or very little obvious technology.Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, quite little. You know, it's amazing because we do this for now 32 years, as I told you. The first balloon was inflated in 1994. We have sold 120 balloons in more than 40 countries. And each time with the balloon, you have a magical effect, you know, because the balloon itself is very nice— because the balloon itself is a show from people looking at it from the ground. And because... The flight experience is amazing because you are really in the sky. You are really looking at the ground, at the landscape. You have no noise, you know, when you take a helicopter or plane. You have a lot of noise. You are in an enclosed airplane or helicopter. Here you are outside. You are on a balcony flying at 150 meters. And wherever we are, always we have like a magical effect of the flight. And with the flying bar, we decided to do something different— where we say, 'Why drink on ground where you can drink in the sky?'Jerome Giacomoni: So we add the drink to the ride, you know. So you are on a table and you have what we say in French conviviality. So we share a drink. We go at 35 meters and you have the thrill of the view of the height and also the conviviality of drinking. So this is another concept, but both of them are universal. And wherever we do it, we have sold 20 aero bars worldwide.Jerome Giacomoni: Everybody is very happy to have this kind of ride. I would say we are on the side of the main market. You know, we have two niche products. The balloon is a niche product. And the AeroBar is a niche product where we have another experience than a normal ride, like a roller coaster or a flume or a spinning coaster.Andy Povey: You say you're a nice product, but the balloon in Paris for the Olympics, where you lifted the cauldron, had phenomenal numbers of visitors watching. That wasn't something you could go on.Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, it was an amazing opportunity. You know, sometimes life gives you some presents.Jerome Giacomoni: And imagine that we were contacted by the Olympic Organisation Committee one day, and we believed it was a joke. And they said, 'We need to talk to you.' And then we discovered that instead of flying humans, they asked us to fly a cauldron. So the Olympic cauldron. And we have like one year and a half of design and manufacturing.Jerome Giacomoni: And then, at 11 pm, 25, the balloon has to fly in front of everybody. I can tell you it was a very stressful time. But so nice and so amazing to have experiences. So, yes, the balloon suddenly was visible by everybody. And that's back now in Paris, isn't it? Yes. First of all, the balloon has to stay only twice— 15 days. You know, you have the Olympics and the Paralympics. So we were open only 30 days in total. And the success was so huge that every night, you have dozens of thousands of people coming to look at it. That's why the mayor of Paris and the French president decided to keep it.Jerome Giacomoni: And just after the deflation of the balloon, they call us back and say, 'Jerome and Mathieu, we would like to have the balloon back.' So we work again with the city of Paris and the French presidency, and we agreed to put the balloon.Jerome Giacomoni: Three times, three months. So from June 21st, in France, this is a music event, you know, the Day of Music. To September 14th, which is a day of sport. So every year until the Olympic game of LA, we will operate the balloon for three months in the summertime. Fantastic.Andy Povey: So, Jerome, you operate in lots and lots of different countries all over the world. I think it's 14 countries that you've been.Jerome Giacomoni: No, we sold, but we operate only in the US and in France.Andy Povey: Ah, okay. Interesting.Jerome Giacomoni: We own ourselves, we operate ourselves, six balloons in the 120 we have sold. So we operate three in Paris region. One, the Parc André Citroën, where we have the Generali balloon since 1999. One in Disneyland Paris since 2005. So we are in Disneyland Paris for now 20 years. Time is flying. And the last one, the Cold Run, which is a very specific event that we operate now for one year and for the next two years. And in the US, we operate Disney World Orlando in Disney Spring since 2009, and San Diego Zoo Safari Park since 2005, and Irvine. South of LA since 2007. So we operate now six balloons for a long, long time, except the cold run. And we keep selling balloons.Jerome Giacomoni: We sell more or less five to six balloons every year.Andy Povey: And how do you find the differences between the French culture and you're on either side of America, so the differences between the different coasts of America and France?Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, we... We are in the US, but we are also in Mexico, in a lot of countries in Asia. In the Middle East, we have a beautiful balloon in Dubai. We have a beautiful balloon in Seoul. So we work a lot with very different cultures. You know, it's very interesting to sell the same product to different cultures. So I would say... The main difference probably lies in the contract. It's very funny when you make the contract. I would say a 'yes' is not the same 'yes' depending on the culture. But everybody is, you know, you... You love people when you work worldwide. You learn a lot, you discover a lot. You have to learn with different cultures. And I have the chance in my professional life to experience that and to meet people from all over the world. And, you know, my job is to go on site, and discuss with someone, and see if it's possible or not to have a balloon at this place.Jerome Giacomoni: So it's always a beautiful job because I travel in a lot of countries in beautiful spots.Jerome Giacomoni: We don't succeed a lot because, if not, I would have sold thousands of balloons. We have always constraints with local authority, with food traffic, etc. But always, it's a pleasure to meet people. And once... The balloon is accepted by the local authority when the customer has a finance for it. Then start more or less a one-year work together between installation, work on site, inflation, and training of the team. And after... They fly with their own wings, even if we have no wings with our balloons.Andy Povey: Very good. And I imagine that you don't put balloons into ugly places.Jerome Giacomoni: We did, sometimes for specific contracts. Ugly, I won't use this name, but not very obvious, logical site. But it has happened. Sometimes we do for small events or for specific needs.Jerome Giacomoni: But yes, most of the time, the sites are very interesting.Andy Povey: So there are other things you're doing with the balloons. So the air quality messaging that you have above Paris. Tell us more about your opportunities to influence in other areas.Jerome Giacomoni: Yes, you know, the balloon is not only a ride, a passenger ride, but it's also an amazing opportunity for communication and for advertisement. So in the city center, like Paris, Berlin, or Seoul, the balloon is used also as a giant advertising billboard. So you have two revenues. You have the revenue of the passenger, but you have also the sponsor revenue.Jerome Giacomoni: When we started the balloon in Paris, it was extremely difficult to get the authorisation to have a balloon in Paris centre. We are two kilometres south of the Eiffel Tower. But you remember, we had the famous Millennium, the Y2K. uh and and so the mayor faris was looking for a new idea and we propose a balloon And they gave us only a one year and a half contract. And the investment was quite huge. And we told him, OK, we can do it, but we cannot do it for only one year and a half. Except if you accept that we have a name on the balloon, a naming and a sponsor on the balloon. And the mayor say yes. And we start another business where we put sponsor on the balloon. And this is a very good business because it makes a... activity immediately profitable so we did that in Paris in 1999 and in 2008 the balloon was like 10 years old because when you fly you have your the balloon is huge we talk about a 32 meters high balloon we talk about like a 12-story building.Jerome Giacomoni: So everybody knows the balloon in Paris. Everybody can see it. And so, when we fly, we have 400,000 people who immediately see us. So we decided to give citizen aspect. And we start— pour changer le couleur de la balle selon la qualité de l'air. C'était en 2008. Et parce que nous l'avons fait, nous avons des scientifiques... coming to us and say, 'Hey, this balloon is a wonderful platform to measure air quality because you make like a carrot of the air from zero to 150 meters. Jerome Giacomoni:  Can we bring some scientist instrument on the gondola? And we say yes. And then we start to make science. And then we start to make scientific publications, scientific publications. And then we start a new business where the balloon is not only a tethered gas balloon for passenger, it's only... advertising billboard and now it's only a scientific platform and so this is very interesting and the last things we have done in 2024 no this year in 2025 is to use the balloon for global climate change. As you know, we have two main gas pollutants for the climate change, CO2 and CH4. And the balloon is a perfect platform to measure evolution on CO2 and CH4. So we are working with a European group named ICOS. gathering all the best laboratories in Europe, who are making a huge study on how CO2 and CH4 how they are in each city.Jerome Giacomoni: And Paris has been chosen as a pilot city. So we are very glad to work with them. And so now the Balloon is also working on climate change. And we will have big, big, big LED screen. So we make some technology sometime, as you said, to inform people on the temperature elevation in Europe and in the world. And the news are very bad, as everybody knows.Andy Povey: But that's fascinating. I love the integration you've been able to take from this unique proposition and apply it to different markets, different problems.Jerome Giacomoni: You know, Andy, I think we have to exit from the box. My message to... all people who are listening to us.Jerome Giacomoni: Okay, passenger rides is very important. It's a key market for many of us. But sometimes we can use... another way to find new flow of revenue, like advertising, and we can be also helpful to our other citizens, like working freely for scientists to make measurements on pollutants of the air. This helps with both air quality and also climate change.Andy Povey: It's a beautiful concept, Jerome. I love it. Love it.Andy Povey: So, final question. Your experiences are obviously very unique. What advice would you have for a venue and possibly a smaller venue that doesn't have the resources to be able to build something 150 metres high or put something 150 metres into the air? What advice would you give them on how to make a compelling experience for visitors?Jerome Giacomoni: I really believe that you have to stick on your roots, okay? I mean that people want authenticity.Jerome Giacomoni: And as you know, we are very keen on balloons, as you can imagine. So we make in our, you know, Paris, it's in Paris where you have the first flight. Yeah. In 1783. Montgolfier, brothers. Yes, with the Montgolfier brothers, with Charles, the scientist. So we really stick on our roots. And I think where you are in Brittany, where you are in Japan, you have to follow your own road and your own path. By feeling what could be the good idea, but also what is your feeling inside you. You need to have something different that you feel very confident with.Andy Povey: Beautiful final thought, Jerome, I like it a lot. So listeners, stay authentic and be passionate.Jerome Giacomoni: Exactly, the right word is passionate.Paul Marden: Next up, let's get some soundbites from the show floor.Rheanna  Sorby: My name's Rheanna. I'm Marketing and Creative Director for the Seasonal Group. We are curators of Christmas magic all year round. Wow, wow.Paul Marden: So you make Christmas special?Rheanna  Sorby: We're the Christmas elves.Paul Marden: Awesome, awesome. I can see you've got such a great set of stands. What have you got here that you're exhibiting for the first time?Rheanna  Sorby: We have Santa's Enchanted Express, which is a three-minute experience that transports customers and guests from a very festive train station to the North Pole in just under three minutes. So it's quite a Christmas miracle. And it also transports on nine pallets. So it's a great return on investment for customers there if it's 24 people on. We also have our elevator experience, which went viral last year. And then we have VR, animatronics, and a lot of our famous items, like the snowman here, just dressed as a little, it's some sort of operator.Paul Marden: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we don't have a lot of luck with lifts at the moment because the team got stuck in a lift yesterday for about 45 minutes. Stop it. We got rescued by the... Well, I didn't get in the lift. I walked because there wasn't enough room. But two of them had to be rescued by the fire brigadeRheanna  Sorby: Okay, so this might be triggering. Well, you know.Paul Marden: Oh, no, I found it hilarious.Paul Marden: I was hugely supportive on the outside, yelling into them.Paul Marden: But Santa won't let me get stuck in a lift today, will he? Absolutely not.Rheanna  Sorby: No, there's an emergency exit. Excellent.Paul Marden: So what's new and innovative then about the Santa Express? What are you bringing to market?Rheanna  Sorby: So a lot of our clients, we sell business to business. They're struggling to get people into shopping centres and we're finding that we need to create retail theatre. So that is something I see as a massive trend moving forward. People want nostalgia. They want an experience, something memorable. But also our customers need a way to return investment as well. So they hopefully will spend something with us and then ticket the experience. So that's something that we're pivoting our business towards. Trying to create a brand new experience every year. A lot of people are struggling nowadays, cost of living.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.Rheanna  Sorby: It's difficult, so we're trying to find a way that brings the Christmas magic to people's doors.Paul Marden: We are, where are we at the moment? We're in September, so we've still got a couple of months left before Christmas 2025, but that must be over for you.Rheanna  Sorby: No, the quality of the street is on the shelves. It's already happening. The install season starts literally on Monday for us. Really? Yes. When we get back, we land and then we start installing.Paul Marden: And so this is the busy time. So let's talk about Christmas 2026. What are the trends that you see coming along at that point?Rheanna  Sorby: Whimsical, whimsical. So we've got Wicked number two coming out. And we've also had all like the Whoville, that sort of style, the Grinch. So imagine pastels, furry trees, things that don't quite make sense, a lot of whimsical wonderland, I would say, trend-wise. But equally immersive experiences and how we can bring magic to you.Paul Marden: Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you ever so much. Rheanna, it's been lovely to meet you. Thank you for coming on the podcast. And let's go and visit Santa in his lift, shall we? Yeah, excellent.Paul Marden: And here it is. So we are surrounded by suites in an old-fashioned lift. And there's our doors closed.Paul Marden: Oh, how amazing is this? We're going up.Paul Marden: Ice like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. The Great Glass Elevator. This is amazing. We're up over the clouds. Just stunning. There's a train there. I think we're going to follow into the tunnel after the train. Yes.Paul Marden: Got cold, now we're underground. Now we're in the tunnel.Paul Marden: And I think this might be Santa's factory.Paul Marden: Let's get ready.Paul Marden: Merry Christmas. The big man's chair as well. Can I take a seat in the big man's chair? Ho, ho, ho.Sohret Pakis: Hi, Paul. My name is Shorhet Pakis. I'm the brand ambassador for Polin Waterparks.Paul Marden: What are you launching this year at IAAPA? What's new for you?Sohret Pakis:Last year, we have won two big awards for a themed water slide, which is... Stingray it was in Nantes in France and it was something big because you know it was like Europeans best water slide number one and I have a brass ring award winner about two million number one but last night in Porta Ventura Stingray has won the second time best water slide of Europe award. But we have something new about it. Last year when I was telling about Stingray, it was an eight-person slide. This year we have something new. Now the capacity went up to 10, especially when we're talking about all these queue management issues. So that's something wonderful. And also, you ask, what is new? This year, we have something very exciting. A parrot-themed stingray. It's the same slide, but it's parrot-themed.Sohret Pakis: It's coming to Dubai by January. It's going to be open.Paul Marden: So can I ask you, what makes that innovative? What's new about that?Sohret Pakis: Actually, it's a very specifically themed waterslide. You know that POLIN has been pioneer in RTM manufacturing and U-texture. It's kind of a composite material technology which we can make waterslides look.  Look like a character, actually. We are the company who did this first because we said that storytelling is very important. Yes, but you know, slides are just slides. So we just wanted the slides look like the characters in that story. Of course, behind that, there is huge material technology, composites technology, design technologies. Actually, that's the time when we introduced King Cobra years ago. And now with Stingray, we took it much further. So actually, the team looks perfectly like a Stingray, but at the same time, it's a water slide with so many features. It has two big towers and between the towers, there's a bridge. From each tower, two slides start with a very special mist roofing and very special bridge where you can just see what's happening all over the slide.Paul Marden: So the queuing experience is enriched so it doesn't feel quite so long and boring because you can watch what everyone is doing.Sohret Pakis: It is, yes.Paul Marden: Super impressive. So we have been asking everybody to think about what are their predictions for 2026?Sohret Pakis: Everybody is talking about AI. Everybody is talking about immersive. So AI, of course, will make a huge difference in operation, especially.Paul Marden: In what way?Sohret Pakis: Actually, in guest satisfaction, because personalisation is very important in our industry. Whoever comes to the park, they are the heroes at the park. And so actually, if the park can make them feel that they are the heroes, truly— if that's their birthday, if that's their wedding anniversary, so whatever. If the park can make you feel that you're special, and thanks to technology, now it's possible.Paul Marden: Absolutely. That's so interesting. Thank you so much for your insights and for joining us on Skip the Queue. Thank you.Thomas Collin: I'm Thomas, I'm from VEX Solutions, so we are a VR company at the start, and now we're going to the arcade with mixed reality as well. Okay, so that's a nice link. What are you launching here at IAFA? So here for the first time we are introducing VEX Party Dash. The Party Dash is a mixed reality arcade machine. So automated, people can go on it, play on it. You have two huge screens that are really highly interactive. You can walk on the screen, you can touch the screen. The goal is really to make you moving. So that's what we want to do with the Dash.Paul Marden: That's amazing, isn't it? So we're watching people at the moment. You can see lights up on the floor that they're stepping on and on the wall.Thomas Collin: What is really the key aspect of this product is that it's highly attractive. People, they just go around, they stop by it, they want to try it. Actually, we can say, 'Hey, come and try it,' because we watch you, we see you. So we can say, 'Hey, come and try it.' And people stop by, they play it. It's highly immersive, but also highly active. Yes. You're just not standing on an arcade, sitting down. No, you're really moving around. So, this is really good for kids and families. Absolutely. That's what we see.Paul Marden: So, where do you see this being used? What sort of attractions will take this?Thomas Collin: Actually, with this product, it can go either in the attraction side or either at the arcade side. So, you can play it as one game, and you can play a three-minute game like an arcade, or you can actually book for 15 minutes. Since there is not a single game, but multiple games, you can play different games, you can play different levels inside the main gate. So you have a high replayability. Because we want you to come back, we want to attract the gamers, and then make them come back.Paul Marden: 15 minutes with this much activity sounds like quite a tall order. It's a workout.Thomas Collin: It's a workout. It's a workout. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Peter Cliff: Hi, my name is Pete Cliff. I'm from Conductr. We're here in Barcelona and it's so exciting to be back at IAAPA. Now, what we're super excited about this year is talking about our collaboration with Norwegian Cruise Lines on Great Stirrup Cay. It's their new water park. It's a great project. We're excited to talk to people about it. It's also lovely to be back in Barcelona. It's been, I think, about six years since we were last back here, and it's always one of my favourite European cities for IAPA. It's great to meet with people from the industry, reconnect with old colleagues and friends, and really see what's happening. There's a huge amount of innovation and special projects that are launching all over the show floor. So yeah, great to be back, and can't wait to see what the future of the themed entertainment industry has to offer.Laura Baxter: My name is Laura Baxter. You may know me as the girl with the purple jumpsuit on LinkedIn. I am the head of marketing for Black Gang Shine, but have most recently just announced that I've gone into freelancing and I've launched your CMO.Paul Marden: And I have to say, the jumpsuits work because I was about 50 metres behind you earlier on and I spotted the Your CMO logo on the back of the jumpsuit, so well done for that. We've talked to a lot of suppliers with stands that are exhibiting. From your perspective, this is your first time stepping over to the dark side and coming to an IAPA. What's the experience like for you? What are you here to get out of the show?Laura Baxter: I'd say it's twofold. Mainly it is for networking. Obviously anybody who's anyone in the industry is here. But also, it's inspiration because I want to be able to talk about new and exciting stuff with... Potential clients that I may have and ideas still for Black Gang as well. So, when you walk around show floor, which is just so vibrant and there's so much going on everywhere—you turn, you can draw inspiration from so many of the suppliers here.Paul Marden: What have you seen that's innovative?Laura Baxter: There's a huge amount of stuff being done with tech and it's very interesting because I think that's where a lot of people are going to think that they need to go, because that's the way of the world now, and the next generation don't know life off of a screen and they're expecting to have these incredible digital experiences.Laura Baxter: I'm not convinced that is the way to go. But yes, it's still impressive tech. So for me, there are things that I stand back out and look at and I'm like, 'Whoa, that's really, really cool.'Laura Baxter: I'm not so sure it's potentially what consumers want, though, controversially.Paul Marden: It's really hard, isn't it? Because as a parent of young kids, you want them off the tech as much as you possibly can. But you need a hook. To be able to attract them, don't you? So there's been some amazing stuff here that bridges that gap between the real world and the tech world. So, summer season 2025 is over. What are your predictions about summer 26 and what operators should be thinking about right now?Laura Baxter: It's a really tough market, we all know that. Budgets are tight for households, so there is an awful lot more thought going into their spending and what they're doing and where they're choosing to take that little bit of disposable money that they do have. Therefore actually I don't think next year operators should be thinking about huge innovations or new attractions. I think they need to strip back to basics and nail their customer service. I think guest expectations now are so high. because they're parting with money that is a little bit more precious to them than perhaps if they don't leave at the end of that day having had a good experience they feel ripped off they're going to go straight to review platforms they're going to let it all out and actually you need to be focusing on making sure that every single touch point with that customer is bang on and we're talking pre-visit as well from the your website journey to buying it to the follow-up emails to the pre-visit emails to that first person they meet on front of house to the ride operators to the events team if you have that kind of entertainment on park if you are not nailing your experienceLaura Baxter: You are going to lose out well.Paul Marden: I think we should end it right there. That there is a nugget of gold.Paul Marden: So I am here with co-host Andy Povey and our good friend Josh Haywood from Crealy down in Devon.Josh Haywood: Hello.Paul Marden: It's the end of day two. What have you seen, Josh? What's blown your socks off?Josh Haywood: Good couple of days so far. We're probably into 40,000 steps, which is great. I think technology is the thing that struck me this week so far. Just the small changes that some of the operators and some of the manufacturers are putting into their existing kits. So, for example, I attended a seminar this morning about bowling. and normally temping bowling is temping bowling. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But now there's augmented reality, and they've got features on the lanes, and it's not about just taking all the pins down, it's taking pin one and six out, and all those things they're trying to do to reinvent older, more traditional attractions, which I think I find really interesting. Yeah. I think some of the seasonality stuff, the Christmas and Halloween stuff has been really good. We sat on a train and went on a journey and the seats rumbled and the sound and the visual effects, they were great.Paul Marden: I saw that. There was no room for me to go and sit on that train. It was amazing.Josh Haywood: I thought that was really good. And, you know, I've been really impressed with generally the show. I think you can get around it all as well. It feels really friendly. I think the sun shining always helps as well. It's not too tough, is it?Paul Marden: I mean, the last time we were in Barcelona, we were all wearing face masks. Absolutely, yes. So it's really refreshing to be back here. And not have that.Josh Haywood: Absolutely. And not have to queue to get in as well. I think that was interesting on the first day.Paul Marden: Oh, did they see you and then just wave you through?Josh Haywood: Red carpet was up for, of course, award-winning theme park and resort. Paul Marden: Mr. Hayward. Did you say award? Winnie and obviously you're on the back of your two awards in the theme park awards last week. How was that? And then we've got some really exciting news from Creeley.Josh Haywood: I saw it at the press this morning. Yes, so a couple of things happened last week. So first of all, we had our anniversary 25 years of Maximus the Coaster. The Vekoma Coaster, 25 years. The first coaster in Devon. It was Devon's first coaster, over half a million riders later. It's done 2 million miles around the track. It's great. So we did a sort of event for that, and we used it to sort of make some announcements about future attractions, which I'll tell you about in a minute. But then we went to the Theme Park Awards last week at Wickste Park, where... We've been the recipients of a few bronze and silvers, and we go being little old us and hope for the best. And then the award I really wanted to win was one of two: the best for families and the best for value. And when the family award came up, they said, 'In bronze is such and such, in silver.' And I was like, 'Well, there you go.' That's all that's left for another year. And then when they said the win at gold was cruelly for best for families, we were delighted. I got a bit emotional about it. I think we would just work so hard over the years to be the best in the Southwest, certainly. And certainly since we put Sootyland in as well. We won the award for Toddlers.Josh Haywood: So it was a double wham. And within 10 minutes as well. It wasn't separated. Within 10 minutes, I just got my breath back from the first one. And then we were up on stage again taking that second award. Oh, it's tough, isn't it? Which was great, yeah. Multi-award winning. Multi-award winning theme parking resort. Devon's finest. Most right in Devon. We're just going to... absolutely bleep the hell out of this for the next 12 months because who knows we may not win it again so we'll just shout from the treetops about this and then we also won thanks to martin rose and rose events uh silver for best entertainment event for the city show It's still very popular, the legacy brand. People love the Sooty show. And as I said at the awards, we sell loads of those puppets. People love a Sooty and a Sweep. So it's been a really good collaboration for us.Paul Marden: We were at our first away day for our Merak team back a few months ago down at Creeley, and I found a little sooty puppet underneath the lectern. I was absolutely chuffed to bits. And there he was, just sitting at the front of the away day, watching everything going on with Sue next to him.Josh Haywood: He's still popular. We understood when we put Cityland in, it wasn't going to be Peppa Pig. world and we didn't think for a minute we'd even sort of get to those heights of Thomas Land at Drayton Manor but it certainly hit a chord with the older market certainly the nannies and the granddads who remember such from when they were kids and you know it's a legacy brand and it works but what we have done really well is sort of corner that market for younger children and toddlers and we Sort of took some comments over the last 12 to 18 months that we may be missing the mark when it comes to the 8 to 12-year-olds, which we were pretty good at five or six years ago. So we've decided this year that we're going to invest in some thrill attractions. So we've just launched news that we've got two new rides going in next year. One, I can't tell you exactly because we're still going under. Got some planning issues, but we're going to have the Southwest tallest ride and the Southwest first inverted ride. So a multi-million pound investment going in and hopefully that will give us another boost that we need to kick on again. We've still got new accommodation going in. We'll still be doing new events and shows for next year.Josh Haywood: So it's going to be a bumper year for Crealy. Absolutely.  I really look forward to that.Paul Marden: I look forward to you being on the launch ride.Paul Marden: Me down on the ground watching and videoing.Josh Haywood: What they have said, which is really interesting, we spoke to an operator, there's only one other ride like it in the UK, and that operator said, whatever you do, make sure when you put the ride in, you fit a hose pipe and a tap right in. Because you may be washing the seats down more than you would usually on your current ride. So, yeah, it certainly will add that next level of ride experience to our family market.Paul Marden: Yeah, I think that's super important, isn't it? Mr. Povey, what have you seen today that has blown your socks off?Andy Povey: I'm really looking for the place to go and get some more soft, comfortable socks. I've walked so much. I've stood around and listened to so many fantastic talks, had so many brilliant conversations. I'm done. My feet hurt. I need to sit down and have a beer.Paul Marden: Well, I hate to break it to you, but there's another day left. And there's still more interviews to do. Still more opportunities for us to get some interesting stories on Skip the Queue.Andy Povey: Look forward to that.Paul Marden: Gentlemen, I think we're about done. So thank you ever so much. It has been a joy. And Mr. Povey, see you back here tomorrow. Josh, wonderful as always.Josh Haywood: Maybe see you at OrlandoPaul Marden: Oh. Absolutely, yeah.Josh Haywood: We'll do it againPaul Marden: Thanks for listening to today's episode. If you liked it, leave a comment in Spotify or Apple Podcasts. If you didn't, let us know on hello@skipthequeue.fm. Today's episode was a team effort for Sami and Emily from Plaster, Steve from Folland Co., as well as Claire and Wenalyn from Skip the Queue HQ. We're back again tomorrow for more fun from IAAPA, including Andreas Andersen from Liseberg, one of Scandinavia's most visited parks. See you all tomorrow. The 2025 Visitor Attraction Website Survey is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsTake the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction Website Survey Report

Nick is joined by Jane Mangan to look at today's headlines from around the racing world. With the news that Scandinavia has likely not passed the veterinary panel for the Melbourne Cup, Nick talks to Racing.com's Michael Felgate, who broke the story before any official announcements. Also on today's show, George Boughey talks about why he believes Royal Lodge entry Bow Echo to be potentially the best he's trained. Plus, Australian based export Jack Pilkington has an interesting add to the debate surrounding raceday electrolytes, while Craig Williams shares his excitement over weekend Group One winner Sir Delius, JA McGrath survives the Typhoon in Hong Kong, and agent, consignor and breeder Luke Lillingston is this week's Weatherbys Bloodstock guest.

Droni in Scandinavia, Copenaghen e Oslo che non si esclude siano di provenienza russa. Ne parliamo in apertura di programma. A seguire una lunga chiacchierata con lo scrittore e architetto Francesco Carofiglio ospite in studio per parlare del suo nuovo libro. Nella seconda parte di trasmissione, invece, ampio spazio alle domande degli ascoltatori su temi di politica interna alle quali risponde l'ex parlamentare Maurizio Bianconi.

Today's show:New proposal on H-1B visas… and it's pretty similar to Jason's pitch from last month!On a new TWiST, Jason and Lon wonder if the White House is watching the pod and borrowing some of our best ideas! Specifically, the new $100K H-1B visa proposal sounds a lot like Jason's suggestion from August… with a few significant tweaks.PLUS we're looking at the latest news about the US TikTok entity, why Jason's not concerned about the new algorithm, the explosion of major data centers in Scandinavia, the European Commission's scaling back of anti-cookie regulations, AND the first big marketing push from virtual assistant startup Howie! That's a packed show!Timestamps:(0:00) Alex is out today so Jason and Lon introduce the show.(04:11) Did they borrow their new H-1B visa proposal from JCal?(10:10) Squarespace - Use offer code TWIST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain at https://www.Squarespace.com/TWIST(11:28) Show Continues…(19:21) Public - Take your investing to the next level with Public. Build a multi-asset portfolio and earn 4.1% APY on your cash—with no fees or minimums. Start now at public.com/twist(20:28) Show Continues…(26:42) Answering YOUR pressing H-1B questions.(30:13) Stripe Startups - Stripe Startups offers early-stage, venture-backed startups access to Stripe fee credits and more. Apply today on stripe.com/startups.(31:30) Show Continues…(32:51) The Murdochs are likely joining the TikTok deal…(34:38) Why Jason's not concerned about TikTok being in the hands of mostly Trump allies(39:29) A look inside the Nordic data center boom and why it's happening(01:03:32) Checking out Howie's first ad… how much did it cost to make?Subscribe to the TWiST500 newsletter: https://ticker.thisweekinstartups.comCheck out the TWIST500: https://www.twist500.comSubscribe to This Week in Startups on Apple: https://rb.gy/v19fcpFollow Lon:X: https://x.com/lonsFollow Alex:X: https://x.com/alexLinkedIn: ⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexwilhelmFollow Jason:X: https://twitter.com/JasonLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncalacanisThank you to our partners:Squarespace - Use offer code TWIST to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain at https://www.Squarespace.com/TWISTPublic - Take your investing to the next level with Public. Build a multi-asset portfolio and earn 4.1% APY on your cash—with no fees or minimums. Start now at public.com/twistStripe Startups - Stripe Startups offers early-stage, venture-backed startups access to Stripe fee credits and more. Apply today on stripe.com/startups.Great TWIST interviews: Will Guidara, Eoghan McCabe, Steve Huffman, Brian Chesky, Bob Moesta, Aaron Levie, Sophia Amoruso, Reid Hoffman, Frank Slootman, Billy McFarlandCheck out Jason's suite of newsletters: https://substack.com/@calacanisFollow TWiST:Twitter: https://twitter.com/TWiStartupsYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/thisweekinInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/thisweekinstartupsTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@thisweekinstartupsSubstack: https://twistartups.substack.comSubscribe to the Founder University Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@founderuniversity1916

On this episode, my guest is Stephen Jenkinson, culture activist and ceremonialist advocating a handmade life and eloquence. He is an author, a storyteller, a musician, sculptor and off-grid organic farmer. Stephen is the founder/ principal instructor of the Orphan Wisdom School in Canada, co-founded with his wife Nathalie Roy in 2010. Also a sought-after workshop leader, articulating matters of the heart, human suffering, confusions through ceremony.He is the author of several influential books, including Money and the Soul's Desires, Die Wise: A Manifesto for Sanity and Soul (2015), Come of Age: The Case for Elderhood in a Time of Trouble (2018), A Generation's Worth: Spirit Work While the Crisis Reigns (2021), and Reckoning (2022), co-written with Kimberly Ann Johnson. His most recent book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work, was released in August 2025. He is also involved in the musical project Nights of Grief & Mystery with singer-songwriter Gregory Hoskins, which has toured across North America, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand.Show Notes:* The Bone House of the Orphan Wisdom Enterprise* Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work* The Wedding Industry* Romantic Sameness and Psychic Withering* The Two Tribes* The Roots of Hospitality* The Pompous Ending of Hospitality* Debt, And the Estrangement of the Stranger* More Than Human Hospitality* The Alchemy of the Orphan Wisdom SchoolHomework:Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work | PurchaseOrphan WisdomThe Scriptorium: Echoes of an Orphan WisdomTranscription:Chris: This is an interview that I've been wondering about for a long time in part, because Stephen was the first person I ever interviewed for the End of Tourism Podcast. In Oaxaca, Mexico, where I live Stephen and Natalie were visiting and were incredibly, incredibly generous. Stephen, in offering his voice as a way to raise up my questions to a level that deserve to be contended with.We spoke for about two and a half hours, if I remember correctly. And there was a lot in what you spoke to towards the second half of the interview that I think we're the first kind of iterations of the Matrimony book.We spoke a little bit about the stranger and trade, and it was kind of startling as someone trying to offer their first interview and suddenly hearing something [00:01:00] that I'd never heard before from Stephen. Right. And so it was quite impressive. And I'm grateful to be here now with y'all and to get to wonder about this a little more deeply with you Stephen.Stephen: Mm-hmm. Hmm.Chris: This is also a special occasion for the fact that for the first time in the history of the podcast, we have a live audience among us today. Strange doings. Some scholars and some stewards and caretakers of the Orphan Wisdom enterprise. So, thank you all as well for coming tonight and being willing to listen and put your ears to this.And so to begin, Stephen, I'm wondering if you'd be willing to let those who will be listening to this recording later on know where we're gathered in tonight?Stephen: Well, we're in... what's the name of this township?Nathalie: North Algona.Stephen: North Algona township on the borders, an eastern gate [00:02:00] of Algonquin Park. Strangely named place, given the fact that they were the first casualties of the park being established. And we're in a place that never should have been cleared - my farm. It should never have been cleared of the talls, the white pines that were here, but the admiralty was in need back in the day. And that's what happened there. And we're in a place that the Irish immigrants who came here after the famine called "Tramore," which more or less means "good-frigging luck farming."It doesn't technically mean that, but it absolutely means that. It actually means "sandy shore," which about covers the joint, and it's the only thing that covers the joint - would be sand. You have to import clay. Now, that's a joke in many farming places in the world, but if we wanted any clay, we'd have to bring it in and pay for the privilege.And the farm has been in [00:03:00] my, my responsibility for about 25 years now, pretty close to that. And the sheep, or those of them left because the coyotes have been around for the first time in their casualty-making way... They're just out here, I'm facing the field where they're milling around.And it's the very, very beginnings of the long cooling into cold, into frigid, which is our lot in this northern part of the hemisphere, even though it's still August, but it's clear that things have changed. And then, we're on a top of a little hill, which was the first place that I think that we may have convened a School here.It was a tipi, which is really worked very well considering we didn't live here, so we could put it up and put it down in the same weekend. [00:04:00] And right on this very hill, we were, in the early days, and we've replaced that tipi with another kind of wooden structure. A lot more wood in this one.This has been known as "The Teaching Hall" or "The Great Hall," or "The Hall" or "The Money Pit, as it was known for a little while, but it actually worked out pretty well. And it was I mean, people who've come from Scandinavia are knocked out by the kind of old-style, old-world visitation that the place seems to be to them.And I'd never really been before I had the idea what this should look like, but I just went from a kind of ancestral memory that was knocking about, which is a little different than your preferences, you know. You have different kinds of preferences you pass through stylistically through your life, but the ones that lay claim to you are the ones that are not interested in your [00:05:00] preferences. They're interested in your kind of inheritance and your lineage.So I'm more or less from the northern climes of Northern Europe, and so the place looks that way and I was lucky enough to still have my carving tools from the old days. And I've carved most of the beams and most of the posts that keep the place upright with a sort of sequence of beasts and dragons and ne'er-do-wells and very, very few humans, I think two, maybe, in the whole joint. Something like that. And then, mostly what festoons a deeply running human life is depicted here. And there's all kinds of stories, which I've never really sat down and spoken to at great length with anybody, but they're here.And I do deeply favour the idea that one day [00:06:00] somebody will stumble into this field, and I suppose, upon the remains of where we sit right now, and wonder "What the hell got into somebody?" That they made this mountain of timber moldering away, and that for a while what must have been, and when they finally find the footprint of, you know, its original dimensions and sort of do the wild math and what must have been going on in this sandy field, a million miles in away from its home.And wherever I am at that time, I'll be wondering the same thing.Audience: Hmm.Stephen: "What went on there?" Even though I was here for almost all of it. So, this was the home of the Orphan Wisdom School for more than a decade and still is the home of the Orphan Wisdom School, even if it's in advance, or in retreat [00:07:00] or in its doldrums. We'll see.And many things besides, we've had weddings in here, which is wherein I discovered "old-order matrimony," as I've come to call it, was having its way with me in the same way that the design of the place did. And it's also a grainery for our storage of corn. Keep it up off the ground and out of the hands of the varmints, you know, for a while.Well that's the beginning.Chris: Hmm. Hmm. Thank you Stephen.Stephen: Mm-hmm.Chris: You were mentioning the tipi where the school began. I remember sleeping in there the first time I came here. Never would I have thought for a million years that I'd be sitting here with you.Stephen: It's wild, isn't it?Chris: 12 years later.?: Yeah.Chris: And so next, I'd like to do my best in part over the course of the next perhaps hour or two to congratulate you on the release of [00:08:00] your new book, Matrimony: Ritual, Culture, and the Heart's Work.Stephen: Thank you.Chris: Mm-hmm. I'm grateful to say like many others that I've received a copy and have lent my eyes to your good words, and what is really an incredible achievement.For those who haven't had a chance to lay their eyes on it just yet, I'm wondering if you could let us in on why you wrote a book about matrimony in our time and where it stands a week out from its publication.Stephen: Well, maybe the answer begins with the question, "why did you write a book, having done so before?" And you would imagine that the stuff that goes into writing a book, you'd think that the author has hopes for some kind of redemptive, redeeming outcome, some kind of superlative that drops out the back end of the enterprise.And you know, this is [00:09:00] the seventh I've written. And I would have to say that's not really how it goes, and you don't really know what becomes of what you've written, even with the kind people who do respond, and the odd non-monetary prize that comes your way, which Die Wise gamed that.But I suppose, I wrote, at all partly to see what was there. You know, I had done these weddings and I was a little bit loathe to let go, to let the weddings turn entirely into something historical, something that was past, even though I probably sensed pretty clearly that I was at the end of my willingness to subject myself to the slings and arrows that came along with the enterprise, but it's a sweet sorrow, or there's a [00:10:00] wonder that goes along with the tangle of it all. And so, I wrote to find out what happened, as strange as that might sound to you. You can say, "well, you were there, you kind of knew what happened." But yes, I was witness to the thing, but there's the act of writing a book gives you the opportunity to sort of wonder in three-dimensions and well, the other thing I should say is I was naive and figured that the outfit who had published the, more or less prior two books to this one, would kind of inevitably be drawn to the fact that same guy. Basically, same voice, new articulation. And I was dumbfounded to find out that they weren't. And so, it's sort of smarted, you know?And I think what I did was I just set the whole [00:11:00] enterprise aside, partly to contend with the the depths of the disappointment in that regard, and also not wanting to get into the terrible fray of having to parse or paraphrase the book in some kind of elevator pitch-style to see if anybody else wanted to look at it. You know, such as my touchy sense of nobility sometimes, you know, that I just rather not be involved in the snarl of the marketplace any longer.So, I withdrew and I just set it aside but it wasn't that content to be set, set aside. And you know, to the book's credit, it bothered me every once in a while. It wasn't a book at the point where I was actually trying to engineer it, you know, and, and give it some kind of structure. I had piles of paper on the floor representing the allegation of chapters, trying to figure out what the relationship was [00:12:00] between any of these things.What conceivably should come before what. What the names of any of these things might be. Did they have an identity? Was I just imposing it? And all of that stuff I was going through at the same time as I was contending with a kind of reversal in fortune, personally. And so in part, it was a bit of a life raft to give me something to work on that I wouldn't have to research or dig around in the backyard for it and give me some sort of self-administered occupation for a while.Finally, I think there's a parallel with the Die Wise book, in that when it came to Die Wise, I came up with what I came up with largely because, in their absolute darkest, most unpromising hours, an awful lot of dying people, all of whom are dead now, [00:13:00] let me in on some sort of breach in the, the house of their lives.And I did feel that I had some obligation to them long-term, and that part of that obligation turned into writing Die Wise and touring and talking about that stuff for years and years, and making a real fuss as if I'd met them all, as if what happened is really true. Not just factually accurate, but deeply, abidingly, mandatorily true.So, although it may be the situation doesn't sound as extreme, but the truth is, when a number of younger - than me - people came to me and asked me to do their weddings, I, over the kind of medium-term thereafter, felt a not dissimilar obligation that the events that ensued from all of that not [00:14:00] be entrusted entirely to those relatively few people who attended. You know, you can call them "an audience," although I hope I changed that. Or you could call them "witnesses," which I hope I made them that.And see to it that there could be, not the authorized or official version of what happened, but to the view from here, so to speak, which is, as I sit where I am in the hall right now, I can look at the spot where I conducted much of this when I wasn't sacheting up and down the middle aisle where the trestle tables now are.And I wanted to give a kind of concerted voice to that enterprise. And I say "concerted voice" to give you a feel for the fact that I don't think this is a really an artifact. It's not a record. It's a exhortation that employs the things that happened to suggest that even though it is the way it is [00:15:00] ritually, impoverished as it is in our time and place, it has been otherwise within recoverable time and history. It has.And if that's true, and it is, then it seems to me at least is true that it could be otherwise again. And so, I made a fuss and I made a case based on that conviction.There's probably other reasons I can't think of right now. Oh, being not 25 anymore, and not having that many more books in me, the kind of wear and tear on your psyche of imposing order on the ramble, which is your recollection, which has only so many visitations available in it. Right? You can only do that so many times, I think. And I'm not a born writing person, you know, I come to it maniacally when I [00:16:00] do, and then when it's done, I don't linger over it so much.So then, when it's time to talk about it, I actually have to have a look, because the act of writing it is not the act of reading it. The act of writing is a huge delivery and deliverance at the same time. It's a huge gestation. And you can't do that to yourself, you know, over and over again, but you can take some chances, and look the thing in the eye. So, and I think some people who are there, they're kind of well-intended amongst them, will recognize themselves in the details of the book, beyond "this is what happened and so on." You know, they'll recognize themselves in the advocacy that's there, and the exhortations that are there, and the [00:17:00] case-making that I made and, and probably the praying because there's a good degree of prayerfulness in there, too.That's why.Chris: Thank you. bless this new one in the world. And what's the sense for you?Stephen: Oh, yes.Chris: It being a one-week old newborn. How's that landing in your days?Stephen: Well, it's still damp, you know. It's still squeaky, squeaky and damp. It's walking around like a newborn primate, you know, kind of swaying in the breeze and listening to port or to starboard according to whatever's going on.I don't know that it's so very self-conscious in the best sense of that term, yet. Even though I recorded the audio version, I don't think [00:18:00] it's my voice is found every nook and cranny at this point, yet. So, it's kind of new. It's not "news," but it is new to me, you know, and it's very early in terms of anybody responding to it.I mean, nobody around me has really taken me aside and say, "look, now I want to tell you about this book you wrote." It hasn't happened, and we'll see if it does, but I've done a few events on the other side of the ocean and hear so far, very few, maybe handful of interviews. And those are wonderful opportunities to hear something of what you came up with mismanaged by others, you know, misapprehend, you could say by others.No problem. I mean, it's absolutely no problem. And if you don't want that to happen, don't talk, don't write anything down. So, I don't mind a bit, you know, and the chances are very good that it'll turn into things I didn't have in mind [00:19:00] as people take it up, and regard their own weddings and marriages and plans and schemes and fears and, you know, family mishigas and all the rest of it through this particular lens, you know. They may pick up a pen or a computer (it's an odd expression, "pick up a computer"), and be in touch with me and let me know. "Yeah, that was, we tried it" or whatever they're going to do, because, I mean, maybe Die Wise provided a bit of an inkling of how one might be able to proceed otherwise in their dying time or in their families or their loved ones dying time.This is the book that most readily lends itself to people translating into something they could actually do, without a huge kind of psychic revolution or revolt stirring in them, at least not initially. This is as close as I come, probably, to writing a sequence of things [00:20:00] that could be considered "add-ons" to what people are already thinking about, that I don't force everybody else outta the house in order to make room for the ideas that are in the book. That may happen, anyway, but it wasn't really the intent. The intent was to say, you know, we are in those days when we're insanely preoccupied with the notion of a special event. We are on the receiving end of a considerable number of shards showing up without any notion really about what these shards remember or are memories of. And that's the principle contention I think that runs down the spine of the book, is that when we undertake matrimony, however indelicately, however by rote, you know, however mindlessly we may do it, [00:21:00] inadvertently, we call upon those shards nonetheless.And they're pretty unspectacular if you don't think about them very deeply, like the rice or confetti, like the aisle, like the procession up the aisle, like the giving away of someone, like the seating arrangement, like the spectacle seating arrangement rather than the ritual seating arrangement.And I mean, there's a fistful of them. And they're around and scholars aside maybe, nobody knows why they do them. Everybody just knows, "this is what a wedding is," but nobody knows why. And because nobody knows why, nobody really seems to know what a wedding is for, although they do proceed like they would know a wedding if they saw one. So, I make this a question to be really wondered about, and the shards are a way in. They're the kind of [00:22:00] breadcrumb trail through the forest. They're the little bits of broken something, which if you begin to handle just three or four of them, and kind of fit them together, and find something of the original shape and inflection of the original vessel, kind of enunciates, begins to murmur in your hands, and from it you can begin to infer some three-dimensionality to the original shape. And from the sense of the shape, you get a set sense of contour, and from the sense of contour, you get a sense of scale or size. And from that you get a sense of purpose, or function, or design. And from that you get a sense of some kind of serious magisterial insight into some of the fundament of human being that was manifest in the "old-order matrimony," [00:23:00] as I came to call it.So, who wouldn't wanna read that book?Chris: Mm-hmm.Thank you. Mm-hmm. Thank you, Stephen. Yeah. It reminds me, just before coming up here, maybe two weeks ago, I was in attending a wedding. And there was a host or mc, and initially just given what I was hearing over the microphone, it was hard to tell if he was hired or family or friends. And it turned out he was, in fact, a friend of the groom. And throughout the night he proceeded to take up that role as a kind of comedian.Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: This was the idea, I guess. Mm-hmm. And he was buzzing and mumbling and swearing into the microphone, [00:24:00] and then finally minimizing the only remnant of traditional culture that showed up in the wedding. And his thing was, okay, so when can we get to the part where it's boom, boom, boom, right. And shot, shot, shot, whatever.Stephen: Right.Chris: There was so much that came up in my memories in part because I worked about a decade in Toronto in the wedding industry.Mm-hmm. Hospitality industry. Maybe a contradiction in terms, there. And there was one moment that really kind of summed it up. I kept coming back to this reading the book because it was everything that you wrote seemed to not only antithetical to this moment, but also an antidote.Anyways, it was in North Toronto and the [00:25:00] owner of the venue - it was a kind of movie theatre turned event venue - and there was a couple who was eventually going to get married there. They came in to do their tasting menu to see what they wanted to put on the menu for the dinner, for their wedding.And the owner was kind of this mafioso type. And he comes in and he sees them and he walks over and he says, "so, you're gonna get married at my wedding factory."Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: In all sincerity.Stephen: Mm-hmm.Chris: Right.Without skipping a beat. Could you imagine?Stephen: Yeah.I could. I sure could.Chris: Yeah. Yeah.Stephen: I mean, don't forget, if these people weren't doing what the people wanted, they'd be outta business.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: No, that's the thing. This is aiding and abetting. This is sleeping with the enemy, stylistically-speaking. [00:26:00] The fact that people "settle" (that's the term I would use for it), settle for this, the idea being that this somehow constitutes the most honest and authentic through line available to us is just jaw dropping. When you consider what allegedly this thing is supposed to be for. I mean, maybe we'll get into this, but I'll just leave this as a question for now. What is that moment allegedly doing?Not, what are the people in it allegedly doing? The moment itself, what is it? How is it different from us sitting here now talking about it? And how is it different from the gory frigging jet-fuelled aftermath of excess. And how's it different from the cursing alleged master of ceremonies? How can you [00:27:00] tell none of those things belong to this thing?And why do you have such a hard time imagining what doesAudience: Hmm mmChris: Well that leads me to my next question.Stephen: Ah, you're welcome.Chris: So, I've pulled a number of quotes from the book to read from over the course of the interview. And this one for anyone who's listening is on page 150. And you write Stephen,"Spiritually-speaking, most of the weddings in our corner of the world are endogamous affairs, inward-looking. What is, to me, most unnerving is that they can be spiritually-incestuous. The withering of psychic difference between people is the program of globalization. It is in the architecture of most things partaking of the internet, and it is in the homogeneity of our matrimony. [00:28:00] It is this very incestuous that matrimony was once crafted and entered into to avoid and subvert. Now, it grinds upon our differences until they are details.And so, this paragraph reminded me of a time in my youth when I seemed to be meeting couples who very eerily looked like each other. No blood or extended kin relation whatsoever, and yet they had very similar faces. And so as I get older, this kind of face fidelity aside, I continue to notice that people looking for companionship tend to base their search on similitude, on shared interests, customs, experiences, shared anything and everything. This, specifically, in opposition to those on the other side of the aisle or spectrum, to difference or divergence. And so, opposites don't attract anymore. I'm curious what you think this psychic [00:29:00] withering does to an achieve understanding of matrimony.Stephen: Well, I mean, let's wonder what it does to us, generally, first before we get to matrimony, let's say. It demonizes. Maybe that's too strong, but it certainly reconstitutes difference as some kind of affliction, some kind of not quite good enough, some kind of something that has to be overcome or overwhelmed on the road to, to what? On the road to sameness? So, if that's the goal, then are all of the differences between us, aberrations of some kind, if that's the goal? If that's the goal, are all the [00:30:00] differences between us, not God-given, but humanly misconstrued or worse? Humanly wrought? Do the differences between us conceivably then belong at all? Or is the principle object of the entire endeavor to marry yourself, trying to put up with the vague differences that the other person represents to you?I mean, I not very jokingly said years ago, that I coined a phrase that went something like "the compromise of infinity, which is other people." What does that mean? "The compromise of infinity, which is other people." Not to mention it's a pretty nice T-shirt. But what I meant by the [00:31:00] phrase is this: when you demonize difference in this fashion or when you go the other direction and lionize sameness, then one of the things that happens is that compromise becomes demonized, too. Compromise, by definition, is something you never should have done, right? Compromise is how much you surrender of yourself in order to get by. That's what all these things become. And before you know it, you're just beaten about the head and shoulders about "codependence" and you know, not being "true to yourself" as if being true to yourself is some kind of magic.I mean, the notion that "yourself is the best part of you" is just hilarious. I mean, when you think about it, like who's running amuck if yourself is what you're supposed to be? I ask you. Like, who's [00:32:00] doing the harm? Who's going mental if the self is such a good idea? So, of course, I'm maintaining here that I'm not persuaded that there is such a thing.I think it's a momentary lapse in judgment to have a self and to stick to it. That's the point I'm really making to kind of reify it until it turns ossified and dusty and bizarrely adamant like that estranged relative that lives in the basement of your house. Bizarrely, foreignly adamant, right? Like the house guest who just won't f**k off kind of thing.Okay, so "to thine own self be true," is it? Well, try being true to somebody else's self for ten minutes. Try that. [00:33:00] That's good at exercise for matrimony - being true to somebody else's self. You'll discover that their selves are not made in heaven, either. Either. I underscore it - either. I've completely lost track of the question you asked me.Chris: What are the consequences of the sameness on this anti-cultural sameness, and the program of it for an achieved understanding of matrimony.Stephen: Thank you. Well, I will fess up right now. I do so in the book. That's a terrible phrase. I swear I'd never say such a thing. "In my book... I say the following," but in this case, it's true. I did say this. I realized during the writing of it that I had made a tremendous tactical error in the convening of the event as I did it over the years, [00:34:00] and this is what it came to.I was very persuaded at the time of the story that appears in the chapter called "Salt and Indigo" in the book. I was very, very persuaded. I mean, listen, I made up the story (for what it's worth), okay, but I didn't make it up out of nothing. I made it up out of a kind of tribal memory that wouldn't quite let go.And in it, I was basically saying, here's these two tribes known principally for what they trade in and what they love most emphatically. They turn out to be the same thing. And I describe a circumstance in which they exchange things in a trade scenario, not a commerce scenario. And I'm using the chapter basically to make the case that matrimony's architecture derives in large measure from the sacraments of trade as manifest in that story. [00:35:00] Okay. And this is gonna sound obvious, but the fundamental requirement of the whole conceit that I came up with is that there are two tribes. Well, I thought to myself, "of course, there's always two tribes" at the time. And the two tribe-ness is reflected in when you come to the wedding site, you're typically asked (I hope you're still asked) " Are you family or friend of the groom or friend of the bride?" And you're seated "accordingly," right? That's the nominal, vestigial shard of this old tribal affiliation, that people came from over the rise, basically unknown to each other, to arrive at the kind of no man's land of matrimony, and proceeded accordingly. So, I put these things into motion in this very room and I sat people accordingly facing each other, not facing the alleged front of the room. [00:36:00] And of course, man, nobody knew where to look, because you raised your eyes and s**t. There's just humans across from you, just scads of them who you don't freaking know. And there's something about doing that to North Americas that just throws them. So, they're just looking at each other and then looking away, and looking at each other and looking away, and wondering what they're doing here and what it's for. And I'm going back and forth for three hours, orienting them as to what is is coming.Okay, so what's the miscalculation that I make? The miscalculation I made was assuming that by virtue of the seating arrangement, by virtue of me reminding them of the salt and indigo times, by virtue of the fact that they had a kind of allegiance of some sort or another to the people who are, for the moment, betrothed, that those distinctions and those affiliations together would congeal them, and constitute a [00:37:00] kind of tribal affiliation that they would intuitively be drawn towards as you would be drawn to heat on a cold winter's night.Only to discover, as I put the thing into motion that I was completely wrong about everything I just told you about. The nature of my error was this, virtually all of those people on one side of the room were fundamentally of the same tribe as the people on the other side of the room, apropos of your question, you see. They were card carrying members of the gray dominant culture of North America. Wow. The bleached, kind of amorphous, kind of rootless, ancestor-free... even regardless of whether their people came over in the last generation from the alleged old country. It doesn't really claim them.[00:38:00]There were two tribes, but I was wrong about who they were. That was one tribe. Virtually everybody sitting in the room was one tribe.So, who's the other tribe? Answer is: me and the four or five people who were in on the structural delivery of this endeavour with me. We were the other tribe.We didn't stand a chance, you see?And I didn't pick up on that, and I didn't cast it accordingly and employ that, instead. I employed the conceit that I insisted was manifest and mobilized in the thing, instead of the manifest dilemma, which is that everybody who came knew what a wedding was, and me and four or five other people were yet to know if this could be one. That was the tribal difference, if you [00:39:00] will.So, it was kind of invisible, wasn't it? Even to me at the time. Or, I say, maybe especially to me at the time. And so, things often went the way they went, which was for however much fascination and willingness to consider that there might have been in the room, there was quite a bit more either flat affect and kind of lack of real fascination, or curiosity, or sometimes downright hostility and pushback. Yeah.So, all of that comes from the fact that I didn't credit as thoroughly as I should have done, the persistence in Anglo-North America of a kind of generic sameness that turned out to be what most people came here ancestrally to become. "Starting again" is recipe for culture [00:40:00] loss of a catastrophic order. The fantasy of starting again. Right?And we've talked about that in your podcast, and you and I have talked about it privately, apropos of your own family and everybody's sitting in this room knows what I'm talking about. And when does this show up? Does it show up, oh, when you're walking down the street? Does it show up when you're on the mountaintop? Does it show up in your peak experiences? And the answer is "maybe." It probably shows up most emphatically in those times when you have a feeling that something special is supposed to be so, and all you can get from the "supposed to" is the allegation of specialness.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: And then, you look around in the context of matrimony and you see a kind of febral, kind of strained, the famous bridezilla stuff, all of that stuff. [00:41:00] You saw it in the hospitality industry, no doubt. You know, the kind of mania for perfection, as if perfection constitutes culture. Right? With every detail checked off in the checkbox, that's culture. You know, as if everything goes off without a hitch and there's no guffaws. And in fact, anybody could reasonably make the case, "Where do you think culture appears when the script finally goes f*****g sideways?" That's when. And when you find out what you're capable of, ceremonially.And generally speaking, I think most people discovered that their ceremonial illiteracy bordered on the bottomless.That's when you find out. Hmm.Chris: Wow.Stephen: Yeah. And that's why people, you know, in speech time, they reach in there and get that piece of paper, and just look at it. Mm-hmm. They don't even look up, terrified that they're gonna go off script for a minute as [00:42:00] if the Gods of Matrimony are a scripted proposition.Chris: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that with us, that degree of deep reflection and humility that I'm sure comes with it.Stephen: Mea Culpa, baby. Yeah, I was, I got that one totally wrong. Mm-hmm. And I didn't know it at the time. Meanwhile, like, how much can you transgress and have the consequences of doing so like spill out across the floor like a broken thermometer's mercury and not wise up.But of course, I was as driven as anybody. I was as driven to see if I could come through with what I promised to do the year before. And keeping your promise can make you into a maniac.Audience: Hmm hmm.Chris: But I imagine that, you [00:43:00] know, you wouldn't have been able to see that even years later if you didn't say yes in the first place.Stephen: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I wouldn't have been able to make the errors.Chris: Right.Stephen: Right. Yeah. I mean, as errors go, this is not a mortal sin. Right, right. And you could chalk it up to being a legitimate miscalculation. Well, so? All I'm saying is, it turns out I was there too, and it turns out, even though I was allegedly the circus master of the enterprise, I wasn't free and clear of the things we were all contending with, the kind of mortality and sort of cultural ricketiness that were all heirs to. That's how I translated it, as it turns out.So, PS there was a moment, [00:44:00] which I don't remember which setting it was now, but there was a moment when the "maybe we'll see if she becomes a bride" bride's mother slid up to me during the course of the proceedings, and in a kind of stage whisper more or less hissed me as follows."Is this a real wedding?"I mean, that's not a question. Not in that setting, obviously not. That is an accusation. Right. And a withering one at that. And there was a tremendous amount of throw-down involved.So, was it? I mean, what we do know is that she did not go to any of the weddings [00:45:00] that she was thinking of at the time, and go to the front of the room where the celebrant is austerely standing there with the book, or the script, or the well-intentioned, or the self-penned vows and never hissed at him or her, "is this a real wedding?"Never once did she do that. We know that.Right.And I think we know why. But she was fairly persuaded she knew what a real wedding was. And all she was really persuaded by was the poverty of the weddings that she'd attended before that one. Well, I was as informed in that respect as she was, wasn't I? I just probably hadn't gone to as many reprobate weddings as she had, so she had more to deal with than I did, even though I was in the position of the line of fire.And I didn't respond too well to the question, I have to say. At the moment, I was rather combative. But I mean, you try to do [00:46:00] what I tried to do and not have a degree of fierceness to go along with your discernment, you know, just to see if you can drag this carcass across the threshold. Anyway, that happened too.Chris: Wow. Yeah. Dominant culture of North America.Stephen: Heard of it.Chris: Yeah. Well, in Matrimony, there's quite a bit in which you write about hospitality and radical hospitality. And I wanted to move in that direction a little bit, because in terms of these kind of marketplace rituals or ceremonies that you were mentioning you know, it's something that we might wonder, I think, as you have, how did it come to be this [00:47:00] way?And so I'd like to, if I can once again, quote from matrimony in which you speak to the etymology of hospitality. And so for those interested on page 88,"the word hospitality comes from hospitaller, meaning 'one who cares for the afflicted, the infirm, the needy.' There's that thread of our misgivings about being on the receiving end of hospitality. Pull on it. For the written history of the word, at least, it has meant, 'being on the receiving end of a kind of care you'd rather not need.'"End quote.Stephen: That's so great. I mean, before you go on with the quote. It's so great to know that the word, unexamined, just kind of leaks upside, doesn't it? Hospitality, I mean, nobody goes "Hospitality, ew." [00:48:00] And then, if you just quietly do the obvious math to yourself, there's so much awkwardness around hospitality.This awkwardness must have an origin, have a home. There must be some misgiving that goes along with the giving of hospitality, mustn't there be? How else to understand where that kind of ickiness is to be found. Right? And it turns out that the etymology is giving you the beginnings of a way of figuring it out what it is that you're on the receiving end of - a kind of succor that you wish you didn't need, which is why it's the root word for "hospital."Chris: Hmm hmm. Wow.Audience: Hmm.Chris: May I repeat that sentence please? Once more."For the written history of the word, at least, it has meant, [00:49:00] 'being on the receiving end of a kind of care you'd rather not need.'"And so this last part hits home for me as I imagine it does for many.And it feels like the orthodoxy of hospitality in our time is one based not only in transaction, but in debt. And if you offer hospitality to me, then I owe you hospitality.Stephen: Right.Chris: I'm indebted to you. And we are taught, in our time, that the worst thing to be in is in debt.Stephen: Right?Chris: And so people refuse both the desire to give as well as the learning skill of receiving. And this is continuing on page 88 now."But there's mystery afoot with this word. In its old Latin form, hospice meant both 'host' and 'guest.'"Stephen: Amazing. One. Either one, This is absolutely amazing. We're fairly sure that there's a [00:50:00] acres of difference between the giver of hospitality and the receiver that the repertoire is entirely different, that the skew between them is almost insurmountable, that they're not interchangeable in any way. But the history of the word immediately says, "really?" The history of the word, without question, says that "host" and "guest" are virtually the same, sitting in different places, being different people, more or less joined at the hip. I'll say more, but you go ahead with what you were gonna do. Sure.Chris: "In it's proto Indo-European origins, hospitality and hospice is a compound word: gosh + pot. And it meant something like [00:51:00] 'stranger/guest/host + powerful Lord.'It is amazing to me that ancestrally, the old word for guest, host, and stranger were all the same word. Potent ceremonial business, this is. In those days, the server and the serve were partners in something mysterious. This could be confusing, but only if you think of guest, host, and stranger as fixed identities.If you think of them as functions, as verbs, the confusion softens and begins to clear. The word hospice in its ancient root is telling us that each of the people gathered together in hospitality is bound to the others by formal etiquette, yes, but the bond is transacted through a subtle scheme of graces.Hospitality, it tells us, is a web of longing and belonging that binds people for a time, some hithereto unknown to each other is a clutch of mutually-binding elegances, you could say. In its ancient practice, [00:52:00] hospitality was a covenant. According to that accord, however we were with each other. That was how the Gods would be with us. We learn our hospitality by being on the receiving end of Godly administration. That's what giving thanks for members. We proceed with our kin in imitation of that example and in gratitude for it."Mm-hmm.And so today, among "secular" people, with the Gods ignored, this old-time hospitality seems endangered, if not fugitive. I'm curious how you imagine that this rupture arose, the ones that separated and commercialized the radical relationships between hosts and guests, that turned them from verbs to nouns and something like strangers to marketplace functions.[00:53:00]Stephen: Well, of course this is a huge question you've asked, and I'll see if I can unhuge it a bit.Chris: Uhhuh.Stephen: Let's go right to the heart of what happened. Just no preliminaries, just right to it.So, to underscore again, the beauty of the etymology. I've told you over and over again, the words will not fail you. And this is just a shining example, isn't it? That the fraternization is a matter of ceremonial alacrity that the affiliation between host and guest, which makes them partners in something, that something is the [00:54:00] evocation of a third thing that's neither one of them. It's the thing they've lent themselves to by virtue of submitting to being either a host or a guest. One.Two. You could say that in circumstances of high culture or highly-functioning culture, one of the principle attributes of that culture is that the fundament of its understanding, is that only with the advent of the stranger in their midst that the best of them comes forward.Okay, follow that. Yeah.So, this is a little counterintuitive for those of us who don't come from such places. We imagine that the advent of strangers in the midst of the people I'm describing would be an occasion where people hide their [00:55:00] best stuff away until the stranger disappears, and upon the disappearance of the stranger, the good stuff comes out again.You know?So, I'm just remembering just now, there's a moment in the New Testament where Jesus says something about the best wine and he's coming from exactly this page that we're talking about - not the page in the book, but this understanding. He said, you know, "serve your best wine first," unlike the standard, that prevails, right?So again, what a stranger does in real culture is call upon the cultural treasure of the host's culture, and provides the opportunity for that to come forward, right? By which you can understand... Let's say for simplicity's sake, there's two kinds of hospitality. There's probably all kinds of gradations, [00:56:00] but for the purposes of responding to what you've asked, there's two.One of them is based on kinship. Okay? So, family meal. So, everybody knows whose place is whose around the table, or it doesn't matter - you sit wherever you want. Or, when we're together, we speak shorthand. That's the shorthand of familiarity and affinity, right?Everybody knows what everybody's talking about. A lot of things get half-said or less, isn't it? And there's a certain fineness, isn't it? That comes with that kind of affinity. Of course, there is, and I'm not diminishing it at all. I'm just characterizing it as being of a certain frequency or calibre or charge. And the charge is that it trades on familiarity. It requires that. There's that kind of hospitality."Oh, sit wherever you want."Remember this one?[00:57:00]"We don't stand on ceremony here.""Oh, you're one of the family now." I just got here. What, what?But, of course, you can hear in the protestations the understanding, in that circumstance, that formality is an enemy to feeling good in this moment, isn't it? It feels stiff and starched and uncalled for or worse.It feels imported from elsewhere. It doesn't feel friendly. So, I'm giving you now beginnings of a differentiation between how cultures who really function as cultures understand what it means to be hospitable and what often prevails today, trading is a kind of low-grade warfare conducted against the strangeness of the stranger.The whole purpose of treating somebody like their family is to mitigate, and finally neutralize their [00:58:00] strangeness, so that for the purposes of the few hours in front of us all, there are no strangers here. Right? Okay.Then there's another kind, and intuitively you can feel what I'm saying. You've been there, you know exactly what I mean.There's another kind of circumstance where the etiquette that prevails is almost more emphatic, more tangible to you than the familiar one. That's the one where your mother or your weird aunt or whoever she might be, brings out certain kind of stuff that doesn't come out every day. And maybe you sit in a room that you don't often sit in. And maybe what gets cooked is stuff you haven't seen in a long time. And some part of you might be thinking, "What the hell is all this about?" And the answer is: it's about that guy in the [00:59:00] corner that you don't know.And your own ancestral culture told acres of stories whose central purpose was to convey to outsiders their understanding of what hospitality was. That is fundamentally what The Iliad and The Odyssey are often returning to and returning to and returning to.They even had a word for the ending of the formal hospitality that accrued, that arose around the care and treatment of strangers. It was called pomp or pompe, from which we get the word "pompous." And you think about what the word "pompous" means today.It means "nose in the air," doesn't it? Mm-hmm. It means "thinks really highly of oneself," isn't it? And it means "useless, encumbering, kind of [01:00:00] artificial kind of going through the motions stuff with a kind of aggrandizement for fun." That's what "pompous" means. Well, the people who gave us the word didn't mean that at all. This word was the word they used to describe the particular moment of hospitality when it was time for the stranger to leave.And when it was mutually acknowledged that the time for hospitality has come to an end, and the final act of hospitality is to accompany the stranger out of the house, out of the compound, out into the street, and provision them accordingly, and wish them well, and as is oftentimes practiced around here, standing in the street and waving them long after they disappear from view.This is pompous. This is what it actually means. Pretty frigging cool when you get corrected once in a while, isn't it? [01:01:00] Yeah.So, as I said, to be simplistic about it, there's at least a couple of kinds, and one of them treasures the advent of the stranger, understanding it to be the detonation point for the most elegant part of us to come forward.Now, those of us who don't come from such a place, we're just bamboozled and Shanghai'ed by the notion of formality, which we kind of eschew. You don't like formality when it comes to celebration, as if these two things are hostile, one to the other. But I'd like you to consider the real possibility that formality is grace under pressure, and that formality is there to give you a repertoire of response that rescues you from the gross limitations of your autobiography.[01:02:00]Next question. I mean, that's the beginning.Chris: Absolutely. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Thank you once again, Stephen. So alongside the term or concept of "pompe," in which the the guest or stranger was led out of the house or to the entrance of the village, there was also the consideration around the enforcement of hospitality, which you write about in the book. And you write that"the enforcement of hospitality runs the palpable risk of violating or undoing the cultural value it is there to advocate for. Forcing people to share their good fortune with the less fortunate stretches, to the point of undoing the generosity of spirit that the culture holds dear. Enforcement of hospitality is a sign of the eclipse of hospitality, typically spawned by insecurity, contracted self-definition, and the darkening of the [01:03:00] stranger at the door.Instead, such places and times are more likely to encourage the practice of hospitality in subtle generous ways, often by generously treating the ungenerous."And so there seems to be a need for limits placed on hospitality, in terms of the "pompe," the maximum three days in which a stranger can be given hospitality, and concurrently a need to resist enforcing hospitality. This seems like a kind of high-wire act that hospitable cultures have to balance in order to recognize and realize an honorable way of being with a stranger. And so I'm wondering if you could speak to the possibility of how these limits might be practiced without being enforced. What might that look like in a culture that engages with, with such limits, but without prohibitions?Stephen: Mm-hmm. That's a very good question. [01:04:00] Well, I think your previous question was what happened? I think, in a nutshell, and I didn't really answer that, so maybe see how I can use this question to answer the one that you asked before: what happened? So, there's no doubt in my mind that something happened that it's kind of demonstrable, if only with the benefit of hindsight.Audience: Right.Stephen: Or we can feel our way around the edges of the absence of the goneness of that thing that gives us some feel for the original shape of that thing.So you could say I'm trafficking in "ideals," here, and after a fashion, maybe, yeah. But the notion of "ideals," when it's used in this slanderous way suggests that "it was never like that."Chris: Mm-hmm.Stephen: And I suggest to you it's been like that in a lot of places, and there's a lot of places where it's still like that, although globalization [01:05:00] may be the coup de grâce performed upon this capacity. Okay. But anyway.Okay. So what happened? Well, you see in the circumstance that I described, apropos of the stranger, the stranger is in on it. The stranger's principle responsibility is to be the vector for this sort of grandiose generosity coming forward, and to experience that in a burdensome and unreciprocated fashion, until you realize that their willingness to do that is their reciprocity. Everybody doesn't get to do everything at once. You can't give and receive at the same time. You know what that's called? "Secret Santa at school," isn't it?That's where nobody owes nobody nothing at the end. That's what we're all after. I mean, one of your questions, you know, pointed to that, that there's a kind of, [01:06:00] what do you call that, teeter-totter balance between what people did for each other and what they received for each other. Right. And nobody feels slighted in any way, perfect balance, et cetera.Well, the circumstance here has nothing of the kind going with it. The circumstance we're describing now is one in which the hospitality is clearly unequal in terms of who's eating whose food, for example, in terms of the absolutely frustrated notion of reciprocity, that in fact you undo your end of the hospitality by trying to pay back, or give back, or pay at all, or break even, or not feel the burden of "God, you've been on the take for fricking hours here now." And if you really look in the face of the host, I mean, they're just getting started and you can't, you can't take it anymore.[01:07:00]So, one of the ways that we contend with this is through habits of speech. So, if somebody comes around with seconds. They say, "would you like a little more?"And you say, "I'm good. I'm good. I'm good." You see, "I'm good" is code for what? "F**k off." That's what it's code for. It's a little strong. It's a little strong. What I mean is, when "I'm good" comes to town, it means I don't need you and what you have. Good God, you're not there because you need it you knucklehead. You're there because they need it, because their culture needs an opportunity to remember itself. Right?Okay. So what happened? Because you're making it sound like a pretty good thing, really. Like who would say, "I think we've had enough of this hospitality thing, don't you? Let's try, oh, [01:08:00] keeping our s**t to ourselves. That sounds like a good alternative. Let's give it a week or two, see how it rolls." Never happened. Nobody decided to do this - this change, I don't think. I think the change happened, and sometime long after people realized that the change had had taken place. And it's very simple. The change, I think, went something like this.As long as the guest is in on it, there's a shared and mutually-held understanding that doesn't make them the same. It makes them to use the quote from the book "partners," okay, with different tasks to bring this thing to light, to make it so. What does that require? A mutually-held understanding in vivo as it's happening, what it is.Okay. [01:09:00] So, that the stranger who's not part of the host culture... sorry, let me say this differently.The culture of the stranger has made the culture of the host available to the stranger no matter how personally adept he or she may be at receiving. Did you follow that?Audience: A little.Stephen: Okay. Say it again?Audience: Yes, please.Stephen: Okay. The acculturation, the cultured sophistication of the stranger is at work in his or her strangerhood. Okay. He or she's not at home, but their cultural training helps them understand what their obligations are in terms of this arrangement we've been describing here.Okay, so I think the rupture takes place [01:10:00] when the culturation of one side or the other fails to make the other discernible to the one.One more time?When something happens whereby the acculturation of one of the partners makes the identity, the presence, and the valence of the other one untranslatable. Untranslatable.I could give you an example from what I call " the etiquette of trade," or the... what was the word? Not etiquette. What's the other word?Chris: The covenant?Stephen: Okay, " covenant of trade" we'll call it. So, imagine that people are sitting across from each other, two partners in a trade. Okay? [01:11:00] Imagine that they have one thing to sell or move or exchange and somebody has something else.How does this work? Not "what are the mechanics?" That can be another discussion, but, if this works, how does it work? Not "how does it happen?" How does it actually achieve what they're after? Maybe it's something like this.I have this pottery, and even though you're not a potter, but somebody in your extended family back home was, and you watched what they went through to make a fricking pot, okay?You watched how their hands seized up, because the clay leached all the moisture out of the hands. You distinctly remember that - how the old lady's hands looked cracked and worn, and so from the work of making vessels of hospitality, okay? [01:12:00] It doesn't matter that you didn't make it yourself. The point is you recognize in the item something we could call "cultural patrimony."You recognize the deep-runningness of the culture opposite you as manifest and embodied in this item for trade. Okay? So, the person doesn't have to "sell you" because your cultural sophistication makes this pot on the other side available to you for the deeply venerable thing that it is. Follow what I'm saying?Okay. So, you know what I'm gonna say next? When something happens, the items across from you cease to speak, cease to have their stories come along with them, cease to be available. There's something about your cultural atrophy that you project onto the [01:13:00] item that you don't recognize.You don't recognize it's valence, it's proprieties, it's value, it's deep-running worth and so on. Something happened, okay? And because you're not making your own stuff back home or any part of it. And so now, when you're in a circumstance like this and you're just trying to get this pot, but you know nothing about it, then the enterprise becomes, "Okay, so what do you have to part with to obtain the pot?"And the next thing is, you pretend you're not interested in obtaining the pot to obtain the pot. That becomes part of the deal. And then, the person on the making end feels the deep running slight of your disinterest, or your vague involvement in the proceedings, or maybe the worst: when it's not things you're going back and forth with, but there's a third thing called money, which nobody makes, [01:14:00] which you're not reminded of your grandma or anyone else's with the money. And then, money becomes the ghost of the original understanding of the cultural patrimony that sat between you. That's what happened, I'm fairly sure: the advent, the estrangement that comes with the stranger, instead of the opportunity to be your cultural best when the stranger comes.And then of course, it bleeds through all kinds of transactions beyond the "obvious material ones." So, it's a rupture in translatability, isn't it?Chris: You understand this to happen or have happened historically, culturally, et cetera, with matrimony as well?Stephen: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.Yeah. This is why, for example, things like the fetishization of virginity.Audience: Mm-hmm. [01:15:00]Stephen: I think it's traceable directly to what we're talking about. How so? Oh, this is a whole other long thing, but the very short version would be this.Do you really believe that through all of human history until the recent liberation, that people have forever fetishized the virginity of a young woman and jealously defended it, the "men" in particular, and that it became a commodity to trade back and forth in, and that it had to be prodded and poked at to determine its intactness? And this was deemed to be, you know, honourable behavior?Do you really think that's the people you come from, that they would've do that to the most cherished of their [01:16:00] own, barely pubescent girls? Come on now. I'm not saying it didn't happen and doesn't still happen. I'm not saying that. I'm saying, God almighty, something happened for that to be so.And I'm trying to allude to you now what I think took place. Then all of a sudden, the hymen takes the place of the pottery, doesn't it? And it becomes universally translatable. Doesn't it? It becomes a kind of a ghosted artifact of a culturally-intact time. It's as close as you can get.Hence, this allegation of its purity, or the association with purity, and so on. [01:17:00] I mean, there's lots to say, but that gives you a feel for what might have happened there.Chris: Thank you, Stephen. Thank you for being so generous with your considerations here.Stephen: You see why I had to write a book, eh?Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: There was too much bouncing around. Like I had to just keep track of my own thoughts on the matter.But can you imagine all of this at play in the year, oh, I don't know, 2022, trying to put into motion a redemptive passion play called "matrimony," with all of this at play? Not with all of this in my mind, but with all of this actually disfiguring the anticipation of the proceedings for the people who came.Can you imagine? Can you imagine trying to pull it off, and [01:18:00] contending overtly with all these things and trying to make room for them in a moment that's supposed to be allegedly - get ready for it - happy.I should have raised my rates on the first day, trying to pull that off.But anyway.Okay, you go now,Chris: Maybe now you'll have the opportunity.Stephen: No, man. No. I'm out of the running for that. "Pompe" has come and come and gone. Mm.Chris: So, in matrimony, Stephen, you write that"the brevity, the brevity of modern ceremonies is really there to make sure that nothing happens, nothing of substance, nothing of consequence, no alchemy, no mystery, no crazy other world stuff. That overreach there in its scripted heart tells me that deep in the rayon-wrapped bosom of that special day, the modern wedding is scared [01:19:00] silly of something happening. That's because it has an ages-old abandoned memory of a time when a wedding was a place where the Gods came around, where human testing and trying and making was at hand, when the dead lingered in the wings awaiting their turn to testify and inveigh."Gorgeous. Gorgeous.Audience: Mm-hmm.Chris: And so I'm curious ifStephen: "Rayon-wrapped bosom." That's not, that's not shabby.Chris: "Rayon-wrapped bosom of that special day." Yeah.So, I'm curious do you think the more-than-human world practices matrimony, and if so, what, if anything, might you have learned about matrimony from the more-than-human world?Stephen: I would say the reverse. I would say, we practice the more-than-human world in matrimony, not that the more-than-human world practices matrimony. We practice them, [01:20:00] matrimonially.Next. Okay. Or no? I just gonna say that, that's pretty good.Well, where do we get our best stuff from? Let's just wonder that. Do we get our best stuff from being our best? Well, where does that come from? And this is a bit of a barbershop mirrors situation here, isn't it? To, to back, back, back, back.If you're thinking of time, you can kind of get lost in that generation before, or before, before, before. And it starts to sound like one of them biblical genealogies. But if you think of it as sort of the flash point of multiple presences, if you think of it that way, then you come to [01:21:00] credit the real possibility that your best stuff comes from you being remembered by those who came before you.Audience: Hmm.Stephen: Now just let that sit for a second, because what I just said is logically-incompatible.Okay? You're being remembered by people who came before you. That's not supposed to work. It doesn't work that way. Right?"Anticipated," maybe, but "remembered?" How? Well, if you credit the possibility of multiple beginnings, that's how. Okay. I'm saying that your best stuff, your best thoughts, not the most noble necessarily. I would mean the most timely, [01:22:00] the ones that seem most needed, suddenly.You could take credit and sure. Why, why not? Because ostensibly, it arrives here through you, but if you're frank with yourself, you know that you didn't do that on command, right? I mean, you could say, I just thought of it, but you know in your heart that it was thought of and came to you.I don't think there's any difference between saying that and saying you were thought of.Audience: Mm-hmm.Stephen: So, that's what I think the rudiments of old-order matrimony are. They are old people and their benefactors in the food chain and spiritually speaking. Old people and their benefactors, the best part of them [01:23:00] willed to us, entrusted and willed to us. So, when you are willing to enter into the notion that old-order matrimony is older than you, older than your feelings for the other person, older than your love, and your commitment, and your willingness to make the vows and all that stuff, then you're crediting the possibility that your love is not the beginning of anything.You see. Your love is the advent of something, and I use that word deliberately in its Christian notion, right? It's the oncomingness, the eruption into the present day of something, which turns out to be hugely needed and deeply unsuspected at the same time.I used to ask in the school, "can you [01:24:00] have a memory of something you have no lived experience of?" I think that's what the best part of you is. I'm not saying the rest of you is shite. I'm not saying that. You could say that, but I am saying that when I say "the best part of you," that needs a lot of translating, doesn't it?But the gist of it is that the best part of you is entrusted to you. It's not your creation, it's your burden, your obligation, your best chance to get it right. And that's who we are to those who came before us. We are their chance to get it right, and matrimony is one of the places where you practice the gentle art of getting it right.[01:25:00] Another decent reason to write a book.Chris: So, gorgeous. Wow. Thank you Stephen. I might have one more question.Stephen: Okay. I might have one more answer. Let's see.Chris: Alright. Would I be able to ask if dear Nathalie Roy could join us up here alongside your good man.So, returning to Matrimony: Ritual, Culture and the Heart's Work. On page 94, [01:26:00] Stephen, you write that"hospitality of the radical kind is

Once again, I THINK a TikTok deal is happening, so updates on that. Why lots of folk in the tech industry are worried about new H-1B visa rules. Might those annoying cookie consent checkboxes be going away? And why the real land grab in data center building is happening in Scandinavia. Inside Trump's deal to save TikTok (Axios) Startup leaders warn new $100K H-1B visa fee will hurt U.S. entrepreneurship and innovation (GeekWire) Big Tech companies, foreign governments scramble after Trump slaps $100,000 fee on H-1B visas (CNBC) Europe's cookie law messed up the internet. Brussels wants to fix it. (Politico) Oura Ring Maker to Become $11 Billion Company With Latest Raise (Bloomberg) Coinbase CEO: We Want To Become A Super App (CoinDesk) Nordic Data Center Boom Fueled by Low Prices, Empty Land and Cool Weather (Bloomberg) My most recent AI content experiment Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Charlotte Greenway filling in for Nick today and joined by the Racing Post's Jonathan Harding. They begin by hearing from Aidan O'Brien who looks ahead to some key Autumn targets for some of Ballydoyle's stable stars along with discussing when plans are likely to be confirmed for the weekend's big winners, Delacroix and Scandinavia. Both Cieren Fallon and Kieran Shoemark or along to look forward to their rides this weekend at Newbury & Ayr whilst Kieran Shoemark also looks forward to a trip to Sweden on Sunday. Jacob West, the US representative for GOFFS shares why the Orby Sale is so attractive to US buyers before we switch codes and hear from Paul Nicholls on an exciting new recruit from the British point to pointing scene, whilst he also shares his hopes for some of the stable's brightest stars this season. Finally, Blaithin Murphy has news of a new charity partner at Wincanton racecourse.

In this Gloucester History Festival Special Episode we speak to Elizabeth Norton about her new book: Women Who Have Ruled: 5000 Years of Female Monarchy! Elizabeth took across different female monarchs across the world, from Hawaii to the depth of Scandinavia, we detailed the the successes and obstacles that they experienced during their rule!Grab a copy of Women Who Have Ruled: 5000 Years of Female MonarchyKeep up to date with Elizabeth via her website, and her instagramTo find out more about Gloucester History Festival head to: https://www.gloucesterhistoryfestival.co.uk/Or head to @GlosHistFest on Twitter or Instagram for more detailsIf you want to get in touch with History with Jackson email: jackson@historywithjackson.co.ukTo support History with Jackson to carry on creating content subscribe to History with Jackson+ on Apple Podcasts or support us on our Patreon!To catch up on everything to do with History with Jackson head to www.HistorywithJackson.co.ukFollow us on Facebook at @HistorywithJacksonFollow us on Instagram at @HistorywithJacksonFollow us on X/Twitter at @HistorywJacksonFollow us on TikTok at @HistorywithJackson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Charlotte Greenway filling in for Nick today and joined by the Racing Post's Jonathan Harding. They begin by hearing from Aidan O'Brien who looks ahead to some key Autumn targets for some of Ballydoyle's stable stars along with discussing when plans are likely to be confirmed for the weekend's big winners, Delacroix and Scandinavia. Both Cieren Fallon and Kieran Shoemark or along to look forward to their rides this weekend at Newbury & Ayr whilst Kieran Shoemark also looks forward to a trip to Sweden on Sunday. Jacob West, the US representative for GOFFS shares why the Orby Sale is so attractive to US buyers before we switch codes and hear from Paul Nicholls on an exciting new recruit from the British point to pointing scene, whilst he also shares his hopes for some of the stable's brightest stars this season. Finally, Blaithin Murphy has news of a new charity partner at Wincanton racecourse.

In this episode of Tech Talks Daily, I'm joined by Todd Grabowski from Johnson Controls to unpack the physics, products, and design choices shaping the next generation of data center cooling. It's a practical conversation that moves from chips and compressors to water, power, and land constraints, and what it really takes to keep modern infrastructure reliable at scale. Todd brings three decades of experience to the table and a front-row view of how Johnson Controls and the York brand have kept their focus on energy efficiency, reliability, and sustainability for more than a century. That longevity matters when the market is moving fast. He explains why cooling now sits alongside power as the defining constraint for data centers, and why roughly forty percent of a facility's energy can be spent on cooling rather than computation. If you lead technology, finance, or facilities, that single number should focus the mind. Todd walks through Johnson Controls' YVAM platform and the York magnetic bearing centrifugal compressor at its core, with real numbers on what that means in practice. Consuming around forty percent less energy than typical cooling devices of the past five years and operating in ambient conditions up to fifty-five degrees Celsius, it is designed for the reality of hotter climates and denser loads. The naval pedigree of the driveline is a nice twist, since it was originally built for quiet and high-reliability conditions long before hyperscale data centers needed the same. Sustainability threads through the entire discussion. Todd lays out how the company holds itself to internal targets while engineering solutions that reduce customer resource use. We talk about closed-loop designs that do not consume water, careful refrigerant choices with ultra-low global warming potential, and product footprints that consider carbon impact from the start. It is a useful reminder that sustainability is a systems problem, not a single feature on a spec sheet. I was especially interested in the three resources Todd says every modern cooling strategy must balance. Land, because you need somewhere to reject heat. Power, because every watt pulled into cooling is a watt not used for compute. Water, because many regions are already under stress and consumption cannot be the answer. Good design weighs these factors against the climate, the workload profile, and the operational model, then standardizes wherever possible so the same unit can run efficiently in Scandinavia or Dubai without special tweaks. We also dig into what AI means internally for Johnson Controls. It is showing up in manufacturing lines, speeding up design cycles, and improving the fidelity of compressor and heat transfer models. That translates into quicker time to market and more confidence in performance envelopes. On the market side, Todd is clear that demand has not softened. If anything, efficiencies tend to unlock more use cases, and the net effect is more workloads and continued pressure on facilities to cool them well. If your team is wrestling with when to adopt liquid cooling, how to reduce PUE through smarter chiller choices, or how to plan for climate variability across a global footprint, this episode offers an honest, grounded view from someone who has shipped the hardware and lived with its trade-offs. It also doubles as a quiet celebration of engineering craft. The kind that rarely makes headlines, yet underpins everything we build in the AI age. ********* Visit the Sponsor of Tech Talks Network: Land your first job  in tech in 6 months as a Software QA Engineering Bootcamp with Careerist https://crst.co/OGCLA    

A landmark report into Islamophobia has urged the government to introduce religious freedom legislation and counter anti-Muslim activity, which – like anti-Semitism – has soared since the Hamas attacks on Israel in October 2023. The official envoy on Islamophobia, Aftab Malik, says verbal and physical attacks on Australian Muslims are up 500 percent in the past two years. But can you legislate against hatred, if it falls short of violence? Can you also regulate the way people speak about any religion? Professor LUKE MCNAMARA of the University of New South Wales School of Law studies hate speech.History was made this week in Westminster Cathedral in London. For the first time more than three centuries, a member of the British royal family had a Catholic funeral. Katharine, the Duchess of Kent, was married to Queen Elizabeth's cousin. She died last week, aged 92. In 1994 , the Queen approved her decision to convert to Catholicism, making headlines at the time. King Charles attended the funeral mass, even though he's supreme governor of the Anglican Church. What bigger story does this reveal about faith in modern Britain? Professor LINDA WOODHEAD is a sociologist at Kings' College, London.Turkey is home to 3.4 million refugees -- 3.2 million from Syria. Less well-known, are those fleeing Turkey. Since a failed coup attempt against President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in 2016, around 90,000 followers of the late Muslim cleric and philosopher Fetullah Gulen have left the country. Their first stop was neighbouring Greece. While most moved onto Germany and Scandinavia, several thousand remain, mainly in Athens. Professor SOTIRIOS LIVAS specialises in Middle East affairs at Ionian University in Corfu. He was in Australia as a guest of the Affinity Foundation, which is associated with the Gulen movement.GUESTS:Professor Luke McNamara University of NSW - on hate speech at the Sydney Writers FestivalProfessor Linda Woodhead, Kings College, LondonProfessor Sotirios Livas, Ionian University, CorfuThis program was made on the lands of the Gadigal People of the Eora Nation

Turkey is home to 3.4 million refugees -- 3.2 million from Syria. Less well-known, are those fleeing Turkey. Since a failed coup attempt against President Recep Tayyip Erdogan in 2016, around 90,000 followers of the late Muslim cleric and philosopher Fetullah Gulen have left the country. Their first stop was neighbouring Greece. While most moved onto Germany and Scandinavia, several thousand remain, mainly in Athens. We caught up with Sotirios Livas, who was in Australia as a guest of the Affinity Foundation, which is associated with the Gulen movement.GUEST:Professor SOTIRIOS LIVAS specialises in Middle East affairs at Ionian University in Corfu.

Emmet Kennedy is joined by Adam Mills (Total Performance Data), Georgia Cox, and Jamie Wrenn to break down a weekend of drama, controversy, and potential Classic stars from Doncaster, Leopardstown, and the Curragh.

Nick is joined by RTE and Racing TV broadcaster Jane Mangan for a debrief on all the weekend's events in the racing world. They lead with "What's next for Delacroix?", before picking out other highlights on Irish Champions' Weekend, including Zavateri's National Stakes win in the company of owner Mick Mariscotti and the admirable Melbourne-bound Al Riffa with Australian Bloodstock's Jamie Lovett, plus Adam Mills considers what the options should be for Scandinavia and Lambourn after Aidan O'Brien's ninth St Leger win. Also on today's show, Kia Jooabchian delights in the 1-3 for his Amo racing in the Flying Five, while he also announces Power Blue unlikely to run again this season, elaborates on yesterday's comments on Ralph Beckett and gives details of his forthcoming sales strategy. Finally, we hear from popular jumping amateur David Maxwell following his decision to retire from riding.

It was a massive week in the world of UAPs. So enormous, in fact, that the decision was made to put out a new Episode of Unidentified History to try and stay on top of everything that went down. A monumental UAP Hearing took place this past week. Five witnesses testified to incredible events they observed, tracked, discussed, or investigated. We heard amazing stories about glowing red rectangles the size of a football field, massive black triangular craft hovering overhead, a formation of tic-tacs racing away from the USS Jackson, UFO sightings in the Soviet Union, and so much more. But, more importantly, several whistleblowers testified to the retaliation and repercussions they have faced for their decision to come forward. With the theme of the hearing being to provide greater protection for national security whistleblowers, the question of whether anything can really be done has to be asked. But then, Representative Eric Burlison showed a video that has the whole world talking. Did a UFO really deflect one of our Hellfire missiles, or was this just a video of something with a much more earthly explanation? The next day, we got an update on our friend, 3i/atlas. This supposed comet continues to do things comets are not supposed to, and this time out, it has changed color and shape. Is it time to panic yet? And then, to top it all off, NASA announced that they very well might have found signs of ancient microbial life....on Mars! Yes, you heard that right. NASA has pretty much confirmed life on another planet! Dave, Tunney, and, making his Unidentified History debut, Rob break all this down for you.In the second half of the show, the guys do a deep dive into another fascinating UAP event. The 1946 Ghost Rocket sightings captivated and terrorized much of Scandinavia. Over 2,000 of these ghost rocket sightings were made during 1946. Some of them were seen crashing into lakes, with no debris ever being found. Were these all just misidentified meteors? Were they possibly the USSR testing captured Nazi weaponry in the months after WWII? Was it just mass hysteria from citizens of a continent that had already endured the horrors of the most destructive war in world history? Or was there a more unidentified and anomalous explanation for these events? Please tune in to this special episode of Unidentified History as the guys give you their thoughts on the first true mass UFO flap in Europe in the post-WWII era.Once thought to be solely the stuff of science fiction, UAPs (UFOs) are very real to thousands around the world. In 2021, the US Government confirmed that leaked UAP video was legitimate. Ever since, there has been an explosion of interest in the topic. Yet, we are no closer to understanding UAPs, where they come from, or who/what is behind the phenomenon. In this new series, we look to bridge the gap between the past and present by looking at some of the most important UAP sightings in history and determining whether the question of "are we alone in the universe?" might have already been answered.About the Chairshot Radio NetworkLaunched in 2017, the Chairshot Radio Network presents you with the best in sports, entertainment, and sports entertainment. Wrestling and wrestling crossover podcasts + the most interesting content + the most engaging hosts = the most entertaining podcasts you'll find! MONDAY - Bandwagon Nerds (entertainment & popular culture) TUESDAY - 4 Corners Podcast (sports) WEDNESDAY - The Greg DeMarco Show (wrestling) THURSDAY - POD is WAR FRIDAY - DWI Podcast (Drunk Wrestling Intellect) SATURDAY - The Mindless Wrestling Podcast SUNDAY - Keeping the news ridiculous... The Oddity / The Front and Center Sports Podcast CHAIRSHOT RADIO NETWORK PODCAST SPECIALS Attitude Of Aggression Podcast & The Big Five Project (chronologically exploring WWE's PPV/PLE history) http://TheChairshot.com PRESENTS...IMMEDIATE POST WWE PLE REACTIONS w/ DJ(Mindless), Tunney(DWI) & Friends Patrick O'Dowd's 5X5Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/chairshot-radio-network/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

In this episode, we meet the manager of watches Scandinavia store Stockholm - Joakim Amorell and talk about how the store is doing since it opened doors 1,5 years ago. We spend time shortly talking about the Stockholm Time event which is the single biggest Nordic Watch focused event in Europe and in general. To learn more about Watches Of Scandinavia and Stockholm Time event click bellow: https://watchesofscandinavia.com/https://www.stockholmtime.com/To learn more and connect with Beyond Horology Podcast click here:https://www.instagram.com/beyondhorologypod/We welcome your support and rating on Apple Podcast, as well as your feedback and questions on our Instagram! Thank you for listening

This time, Laura talks to four women, and one man inspired and backed by women, about the role of women in the world of cycling. Spanning three continents our interviewees tell us their stories. From improving adventure cycling access in Scandinavia to the need for better gender equity in the bicycle industry, via the role of women in advocacy in the USA, to women empowering women across Europe and Nepal, this is a globe-trotting pod.All of our interviewees Laura collared at the Velo-City conference in Gdansk in June. Show notes are below for each of them.Mark Ostrow from Seattle on expanding his efforts from creating one safe street to joining a citywide campaign, Seattle Neighbourhood Greenways. Mark credits advocate Cathy Tuttle, Senator Emily Alvarado, and legislator Julia Reed for backing him and his ideas. Seattle greenways aren't what you'd think they might be…www.seattlegreenways.orgHenna Palosaari - Norway, cycle tourism expert, bike adventurer and content creator focusing on sustainable tourism and adventure marketing. Henna tells her story of the journey from novice bikepacker to advocate for mapping off-road adventure routes at a national level. https://www.velo-city-conference.com/en/programme/speakers/henna-palosaari/Carolina Cominotti - Barcelona, Spain. Citizen engagement officer at the European Institute of Innovation and Technology for Urban Mobility. Her project TandEM Women in Cycling https://engage.eiturbanmobility.eu/processes/tandemwomen?locale=en. Carolina talks of her work empowering women to cycle more and breaking down barriers to cycling access for women, from community to infrastructure and the life-changing power of this work.Anke Schȁffner - Chief Policy Officer for the German cycle industry Zweirad Industrie Verband (Bicycle Industry Association) speaks about the transformation of e-bikes' reputation and popularity in Germany, why bikes serve women so poorly and the untapped, and unmeasured, power of cycle tourism for the economy. https://www.ziv-zweirad.de/Anuradha Shrestha, an educator and advocate in Nepal, working with NGO Cycle City Network Nepal (CCNN) for the past decade, which trains women to cycle and to train other women. Anuradha speaks of the culture of celebration in Nepal and the need to train the trainers to maintain sustainable cycling growth - as well as the importance of community in fostering that growth. https://cyclecity.org.np/The book, Bikes and Bloomers, uncovers the Victorian women who invented clothing to cycle https://bikesandbloomers.com/book/More about the conference, which is held in Rimini, Italy, 16-19 June 2026 https://www.velo-city-conference.com/For ad-free listening, behind-the-scenes and bonus content and to help support the podcast - head to (https://www.patreon.com/StreetsAheadPodcast). We'll even send you some stickers! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This episode is available in audio format on our Let's Talk Loyalty podcast and in video format on www.Loyalty.TV.This republished episode features the SAS Group, the Swedish airline holding company originally formed in 1946 after the merger of the three Scandinavian flag carriers serving Sweden, Denmark and Norway.It is now Scandinavia's leading airline, offering the most departures to, from and within Scandinavia.Like many airlines, the SAS Group has made significant changes to its corporate structure over the years and particularly this year to its global alliance strategy.SAS was one of the original founding members of the Star Alliance in 1997 which it left on 31 August 2024 and it then joined Skyteam the very next day on September 1st 2024! It's an incredible story.Joining us to share some insights on their loyalty program and some recent award-winning loyalty-led campaigns is Olivia Wasniewski, who is the Head of the EuroBonus Program operated by SAS.Show notes:1) Olivia Wasniewski2) SAS Group3) SAS EuroBonus4) Watch the full video interview for free

The Bandidos Motorcycle Club has left a violent mark across the globe. From Germany and Scandinavia to Mexico and Thailand, their crimes include drug trafficking, extortion, and brutal turf wars with rival gangs.Subscribe to our YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/@bangdangnetworkBecome a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/outlaws-gunslingers--4737234/support.Subscribe to our YouTube! https://www.youtube.com/@bangdangnetwork

In this episode of the Van Life Diaries: Europe 1985, we move on to Scandinavia. Starting off in Denmark, we looked for Lego, noticed the size of the Little Mermaid, and enjoyed spending time in Copenhagen. From Denmark it was a short ferry ride to Sweden, and while my Dad and I muse that we don't have many strong memories from our time there, my Mum's diary does the heavy lifting contributing details about our time in some seaside islands, followed by Stockholm, and an intriguing visit to a timber mill area. Finally, we chat about how much we loved Norway, including time in Oslo, the fjords and playing badminton in Bergen. This is the fifth part of a monthly, six-episode series celebrating the fact that exactly 40 years ago this year, my family and I spent six months in a striped motorhome travelling around Europe. I was nine years old and yes, this trip had an enormous impact on my life - I'm sure you wouldn't be listening to this podcast today if Van Life 1985 hadn't taken place! Throughout the series, I'll include chats recorded with my Dad this year, extracts from my late Mum's travel diary from 1985, and of course my own memories and thoughts. A big thanks to Context Travel for sponsoring this series, and an even bigger thanks to my Dad for agreeing to be part of it. Links: Context Travel - https://bit.ly/contexttravel - use the code THOUGHTFULTRAVEL to get 15% off any online booking. Context Travel operate walking tours in cities around the world, and have interesting and qualified subject-matter experts leading your walk Listen to Part 1 of Van Life Diaries: Episode 348 - https://notaballerina.com/348 Listen to Part 2 of Van Life Diaries: Episode 351 - https://notaballerina.com/351 Listen to Part 3 of Van Life Diaries: Episode 355 - https://notaballerina.com/355 Listen to Part 4 of Van Life Diaries: Episode 359 - https://notaballerina.com/359 Join our Facebook group for Thoughtful Travellers - https://www.facebook.com/groups/thoughtfultravellers Join our LinkedIn group for Thoughtful Travellers - https://notaballerina.com/linkedin Sign up for the Thoughtful Travellers newsletter at Substack - https://thoughtfultravel.substack.com Show notes: https://notaballerina.com/359 Support the show: https://thoughtfultravel.substack.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

China shows off new weapons at expensive military parade. Then: Britain’s new warship deal with Scandinavia. Plus: uproar as Abba is left off a Swedish cultural-heritage list.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Aftonmora Friesians in Sweden is Scandinavia's leading stud farm for Friesian horses and is home to KFPS approved stallions Tymon 456 and Mees 497. Aftonmora Friesians is dedicated to preserving the beauty, temperament, and athleticism of this remarkable breed, with a strong focus on genetics and health. Join us as we dive into their story, their vision, and what makes Friesians so truly unforgettable.

Phillip Black and Michail Katkoff break down why they left the Nordics, trading modesty-maxxing for Mediterranean chaos and a bit more sun. The two dive into the quiet conservatism baked into Scandinavian life, the erosion of hunger that comes with too much comfort, and the calculus behind moving to Cyprus and Greece. 00:00 The Conservative Psyop of Scandinavia04:31 Cultural Reflections and Personal Experiences in Sweden09:07 Transitioning to Cyprus: Opportunities and Challenges13:37 Understanding the Swedish Welfare State18:03 Career Reflections and the Consulting Path24:30 Navigating the Gaming Industry's Landscape26:54 The Challenges of Client Management29:51 Decisiveness in Consulting32:41 The Emotional Rollercoaster of Consulting34:36 Building a Sustainable Deal Flow37:26 Establishing Expertise vs. Personality41:39 Life Choices and Career Reflections42:34 Balancing Work and Personal Life46:13 Relocation and Family Decisions48:58 Cultural Differences and Education Challenges55:28 Economic Growth and Finland's Future61:04 Reflections and Future Aspirations

Back at work trying my best to stay sane. Some cool concerts in my fall calender though so that's nice. I'll even swing by Germany to see bands that chose to skip Scandinavia this time around. On the playlist you'll some punk, garage, hard rock, thrash...

Greg Jenner is joined in medieval Scandinavia by historian Dr Eleanor Barraclough and comedian Chloe Petts to learn about the fascinating women of the Viking age. The popular stereotype of the Vikings is pretty macho: bearded men on boats, heading out to raid, pillage and burn down monasteries. There are some famous images of Viking warrior women: shieldmaidens, Valkyries and various goddesses. But what about the lives led by ordinary women in medieval Scandinavia and across the Viking world? In this episode we look at the real history behind the myths and stereotypes, exploring daily life for Viking women: their roles as wives and mothers, the work they did as weavers and healers, the gods they prayed to, the archaeological traces they left behind, as well as the sad reality that many women in the Viking world were enslaved. We also look at women who lived lives out of the ordinary – as queens, sorceresses, and warriors. If you're a fan of feminist history, the intimate details of daily life in the past, and fantastical myths and legends, you'll love our episode on Viking Women. If you want to know more about the Vikings, check out our episodes on Leif Erikson and Old Norse Literature. And for more fearsome warrior women, there's our episode on Njinga of Ndongo and Matamba. You're Dead To Me is the comedy podcast that takes history seriously. Every episode, Greg Jenner brings together the best names in history and comedy to learn and laugh about the past. Hosted by: Greg Jenner Research by: Clara Chamberlain Written by: Clara Chamberlain, Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow, Emma Nagouse, and Greg Jenner Produced by: Emmie Rose Price-Goodfellow and Greg Jenner Audio Producer: Steve Hankey Production Coordinator: Gill Huggett Senior Producer: Emma Nagouse Executive Editor: Philip Sellars

In this episode, we slip into the uncanny world of changeling lore — the ancient belief that a loved one could be stolen away by the fae, replaced with an uncanny double. From the eerie ballads of Ireland to the shadowy forests of Scandinavia, we explore how different cultures have told, feared, and tried to undo the changeling exchange.We'll revisit the haunting true story of Bridget Cleary, often called “the last witch burned in Ireland” (though she was no witch at all), and uncover the protective charms, salt lines, and rituals once believed to bring the real soul home. Then, we turn our gaze to Practical Magic — where, if you know how to look, you might just find a changeling story woven into Gillian Owens' possession by Jimmy.Whether you believe in fairy abductions or see them as metaphors for loss and transformation, changeling tales remind us of one timeless truth: love knows the real you, even when you've been lost.SOCIALS:⁠Link Tree⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Patreon⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠HERO SOURCES DISCLAIMER:The Magnolia Street Podcast intends to discuss the movie, “Practical Magic” in its entirety. This will evidently result in spoilers and it is recommended that you watch and or read the following. Alice Hoffman's: Practical Magic, Rules of Magic, Magic Lessons, Book of Magic. The Magnolia Street Podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes and should not be used as a substitute for professional or medical advice. Do not attempt any of the discussed actions, solutions, or remedies without first consulting a qualified professional. It should be noted that we are not medical professionals and therefore we are not responsible or liable for any injuries or illnesses resulting from the use of any information on our website or in our media.The Magnolia Street Podcast presenters, Kristina Babich and Justina Carubia are passionate fans of Alice Hoffman's work and the Practical Magic word she has created. There is no copyright infringement intended, all characters and story lines are that of Alice Hoffman. We do not own any of that material as well as any of the move score music shared within the podcast.All intellectual property rights concerning personally written music and or shared art are vested in Magnolia Street Podcast. Copying, distributing and any other use of these materials is not permitted without the written permission from Kristina Babich and Justina Carubia.

In this episode, Conor and Bryce chat about some open source projects, podcast recommendations, our upcoming trip to Europe and much more!Link to Episode 249 on WebsiteDiscuss this episode, leave a comment, or ask a question (on GitHub)SocialsADSP: The Podcast: TwitterConor Hoekstra: Twitter | BlueSky | MastodonBryce Adelstein Lelbach: TwitterShow NotesDate Recorded: 2025-08-21Date Released: 2025-08-29Astro Bot VideoADSP Episode 176:

Lots of talk these days about ultra-processed foods (UPFs). Along with confusion about what in the heck they are or what they're not, how bad they are for us, and what ought to be done about them. A landmark in the discussion of ultra-processed foods has been the publication of a book entitled Ultra-processed People, Why We Can't Stop Eating Food That Isn't Food. The author of that book, Dr. Chris van Tulleken, joins us today. Dr. van Tulleken is a physician and is professor of Infection and Global Health at University College London. He also has a PhD in molecular virology and is an award-winning broadcaster on the BBC. His book on Ultra-processed People is a bestseller. Interview Summary Chris, sometimes somebody comes along that takes a complicated topic and makes it accessible and understandable and brings it to lots of people. You're a very fine scientist and scholar and academic, but you also have that ability to communicate effectively with lots of people, which I very much admire. So, thanks for doing that, and thank you for joining us. Oh, Kelly, it's such a pleasure. You know, I begin some of my talks now with a clipping from the New York Times. And it's a picture of you and an interview you gave in 1995. So exactly three decades ago. And in this article, you just beautifully communicate everything that 30 years later I'm still saying. So, yeah. I wonder if communication, it's necessary, but insufficient. I think we are needing to think of other means to bring about change. I totally agree. Well, thank you by the way. And I hope I've learned something over those 30 years. Tell us, please, what are ultra-processed foods? People hear the term a lot, but I don't think a lot of people know exactly what it means. The most important thing to know, I think, is that it's not a casual term. It's not like 'junk food' or 'fast food.' It is a formal scientific definition. It's been used in hundreds of research studies. The definition is very long. It's 11 paragraphs long. And I would urge anyone who's really interested in this topic, go to the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization website. You can type in NFAO Ultra and you'll get the full 11 paragraph definition. It's an incredibly sophisticated piece of science. But it boils down to if you as a consumer, someone listening to this podcast, want to know if the thing you are eating right now is ultra-processed, look at the ingredients list. If there are ingredients on that list that you do not normally find in a domestic kitchen like an emulsifier, a coloring, a flavoring, a non-nutritive sweetener, then that product will be ultra-processed. And it's a way of describing this huge range of foods that kind of has taken over the American and the British and in fact diets all over the world. How come the food companies put this stuff in the foods? And the reason I ask is in talks I give I'll show an ingredient list from a food that most people would recognize. And ask people if they can guess what the food is from the ingredient list. And almost nobody can. There are 35 things on the ingredient list. Sugar is in there, four different forms. And then there are all kinds of things that are hard to pronounce. There are lots of strange things in there. They get in there through loopholes and government regulation. Why are they there in the first place? So, when I started looking at this I also noticed this long list of fancy sounding ingredients. And even things like peanut butter will have palm oil and emulsifiers. Cream cheese will have xanthum gum and emulsifiers. And you think, well, wouldn't it just be cheaper to make your peanut butter out of peanuts. In fact, every ingredient is in there to make money in one of two ways. Either it drives down the cost of production or storage. If you imagine using a real strawberry in your strawberry ice cream. Strawberries are expensive. They're not always in season. They rot. You've got to have a whole supply chain. Why would you use a strawberry if you could use ethyl methylphenylglycidate and pink dye and it'll taste the same. It'll look great. You could then put in a little chunky bit of modified corn starch that'll be chewy if you get it in the right gel mix. And there you go. You've got strawberries and you haven't had to deal with strawberry farmers or any supply chain. It's just you just buy bags and bottles of white powder and liquids. The other way is to extend the shelf life. Strawberries as I say, or fresh food, real food - food we might call it rots on shelves. It decays very quickly. If you can store something at room temperature in a warehouse for months and months, that saves enormous amounts of money. So, one thing is production, but the other thing is the additives allow us to consume to excess or encourage us to consume ultra-processed food to excess. So, I interviewed a scientist who was a food industry development scientist. And they said, you know, most ultra-processed food would be gray if it wasn't dyed, for example. So, if you want to make cheap food using these pastes and powders, unless you dye it and you flavor it, it will be inedible. But if you dye it and flavor it and add just the right amount of salt, sugar, flavor enhancers, then you can make these very addictive products. So that's the logic of UPF. Its purpose is to make money. And that's part of the definition. Right. So, a consumer might decide that there's, you know, beneficial trade-off for them at the end of the day. That they get things that have long shelf life. The price goes down because of the companies don't have to deal with the strawberry farmers and things like that. But if there's harm coming in waves from these things, then it changes the equation. And you found out some of that on your own. So as an experiment you did with a single person - you, you ate ultra-processed foods for a month. What did you eat and how did it affect your body, your mood, your sleep? What happened when you did this? So, what's really exciting, actually Kelly, is while it was an n=1, you know, one participant experiment, I was actually the pilot participant in a much larger study that we have published in Nature Medicine. One of the most reputable and high impact scientific journals there is. So, I was the first participant in a randomized control trial. I allowed us to gather the data about what we would then measure in a much larger number. Now we'll come back and talk about that study, which I think was really important. It was great to see it published. So, I was a bit skeptical. Partly it was with my research team at UCL, but we were also filming it for a BBC documentary. And I went into this going I'm going to eat a diet of 80% of my calories will come from ultra-processed food for four weeks. And this is a normal diet. A lifelong diet for a British teenager. We know around 20% of people in the UK and the US eat this as their normal food. They get 80% of their calories from ultra-processed products. I thought, well, nothing is going to happen to me, a middle-aged man, doing this for four weeks. But anyway, we did it kind of as a bit of fun. And we thought, well, if nothing happens, we don't have to do a bigger study. We can just publish this as a case report, and we'll leave it out of the documentary. Three big things happened. I gained a massive amount of weight, so six kilos. And I wasn't force feeding myself. I was just eating when I wanted. In American terms, that's about 15 pounds in four weeks. And that's very consistent with the other published trials that have been done on ultra-processed food. There have been two other RCTs (randomized control trials); ours is the third. There is one in Japan, one done at the NIH. So, people gain a lot of weight. I ate massively more calories. So much so that if I'd continued on the diet, I would've almost doubled my body weight in a year. And that may sound absurd, but I have an identical twin brother who did this natural experiment. He went to Harvard for a year. He did his masters there. During his year at Harvard he gained, let's see, 26 kilos, so almost 60 pounds just living in Cambridge, Massachusetts. But how did you decide how much of it to eat? Did you eat until you just kind of felt naturally full? I did what most people do most of the time, which is I just ate what I wanted when I felt like it. Which actually for me as a physician, I probably took the breaks off a bit because I don't normally have cocoa pops for breakfast. But I ate cocoa pops and if I felt like two bowls, I'd have two bowls. It turned out what I felt like a lot of mornings was four bowls and that was fine. I was barely full. So, I wasn't force feeding myself. It wasn't 'supersize' me. I was eating to appetite, which is how these experiments run. And then what we've done in the trials. So, I gained weight, then we measured my hormone response to a meal. When you eat, I mean, it's absurd to explain this to YOU. But when you eat, you have fullness hormones that go up and hunger hormones that go down, so you feel full and less hungry. And we measured my response to a standard meal at the beginning and at the end of this four-week diet. What we found is that I had a normal response to eating a big meal at the beginning of the diet. At the end of eating ultra-processed foods, the same meal caused a very blunted rise in the satiety hormones. In the 'fullness' hormones. So, I didn't feel as full. And my hunger hormones remained high. And so, the food is altering our response to all meals, not merely within the meal that we're eating. Then we did some MRI scans and again, I thought this would be a huge waste of time. But we saw at four weeks, and then again eight weeks later, very robust changes in the communication between the habit-forming bits at the back of the brain. So, the automatic behavior bits, the cerebellum. Very conscious I'm talking to YOU about this, Kelly. And the kind of addiction reward bits in the middle. Now these changes were physiological, not structural. They're about the two bits of the brain talking to each other. There's not really a new wire going between them. But we think if this kind of communication is happening a lot, that maybe a new pathway would form. And I think no one, I mean we did this with very expert neuroscientists at our National Center for Neuroscience and Neurosurgery, no one really knows what it means. But the general feeling was these are the kind of changes we might expect if we'd given someone, or a person or an animal, an addictive substance for four weeks. They're consistent with, you know, habit formation and addiction. And the fact that they happened so quickly, and they were so robust - they remained the same eight weeks after I stopped the diet, I think is really worrying from a kid's perspective. So, in a period of four weeks, it re-altered the way your brain works. It affected the way your hunger and satiety were working. And then you ended up with this massive weight. And heaven knows what sort of cardiovascular effects or other things like that might have been going on or had the early signs of that over time could have been really pretty severe, I imagine. I think one of the main effects was that I became very empathetic with my patients. Because we did actually a lot of, sort of, psychological testing as well. And there's an experience where, obviously in clinic, I mainly treat patients with infections. But many of my patients are living with other, sort of, disorders of modern life. They live with excess weight and cardiovascular disease and type two diabetes and metabolic problems and so on. And I felt in four weeks like I'd gone from being in my early 30, early 40s at the time, I felt like I'd just gone to my early 50s or 60s. I ached. I felt terrible. My sleep was bad. And it was like, oh! So many of the problems of modern life: waking up to pee in the middle of the night is because you've eaten so much sodium with your dinner. You've drunk all this water, and then you're trying to get rid of it all night. Then you're constipated. It's a low fiber diet, so you develop piles. Pain in your bum. The sleep deprivation then makes you eat more. And so, you get in this vicious cycle where the problem didn't feel like the food until I stopped and I went cold turkey. I virtually have not touched it since. It cured me of wanting UPF. That was the other amazing bit of the experience that I write about in the book is it eating it and understanding it made me not want it. It was like being told to smoke. You know, you get caught smoking as a kid and your parents are like, hey, now you finish the pack. It was that. It was an aversion experience. So, it gave me a lot of empathy with my patients that many of those kinds of things we regard as being normal aging, those symptoms are often to do with the way we are living our lives. Chris, I've talked to a lot of people about ultra-processed foods. You're the first one who's mentioned pain in the bum as one of the problems, so thank you. When I first became a physician, I trained as a surgeon, and I did a year doing colorectal surgery. So, I have a wealth of experience of where a low fiber diet leaves you. And many people listening to this podcast, I mean, look, we're all going to get piles. Everyone gets these, you know, anal fishes and so on. And bum pain it's funny to talk about it. No, not the... it destroys people's lives, so, you know, anyway. Right. I didn't want to make light of it. No, no. Okay. So, your own experiment would suggest that these foods are really bad actors and having this broad range of highly negative effects. But what does research say about these things beyond your own personal experience, including your own research? So, the food industry has been very skillful at portraying this as a kind of fad issue. As ultra-processed food is this sort of niche thing. Or it's a snobby thing. It's not a real classification. I want to be absolutely clear. UPF, the definition is used by the World Health Organization and the United Nations Food and Agricultural Organization to monitor global diet quality, okay? It's a legitimate way of thinking about food. The last time I looked, there are more than 30 meta-analyses - that is reviews of big studies. And the kind of high-quality studies that we use to say cigarettes cause lung cancer. So, we've got this what we call epidemiological evidence, population data. We now have probably more than a hundred of these prospective cohort studies. And they're really powerful tools. They need to be used in conjunction with other evidence, but they now link ultra-processed food to this very wide range of what we euphemistically call negative health outcomes. You know, problems that cause human suffering, mental health problems, anxiety, depression, multiple forms of cancer, inflammatory diseases like Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis, metabolic disease, cardiovascular disease, Alzheimer's and dementia. Of course, weight gain and obesity. And all cause mortality so you die earlier of all causes. And there are others too. So, the epidemiological evidence is strong and that's very plausible. So, we take that epidemiological evidence, as you well know, and we go, well look, association and causation are different things. You know, do matches cause cancer or does cigarettes cause cancer? Because people who buy lots of matches are also getting the lung cancer. And obviously epidemiologists are very sophisticated at teasing all this out. But we look at it in the context then of other evidence. My group published the third randomized control trial where we put a group of people, in a very controlled way, on a diet of either minimally processed food or ultra-processed food and looked at health outcomes. And we found what the other two trials did. We looked at weight gain as a primary outcome. It was a short trial, eight weeks. And we saw people just eat more calories on the ultra-processed food. This is food that is engineered to be consumed to excess. That's its purpose. So maybe to really understand the effect of it, you have to imagine if you are a food development engineer working in product design at a big food company - if you develop a food that's cheap to make and people will just eat loads of it and enjoy it, and then come back for it again and again and again, and eat it every day and almost become addicted to it, you are going to get promoted. That product is going to do well on the shelves. If you invent a food that's not addictive, it's very healthy, it's very satisfying, people eat it and then they're done for the day. And they don't consume it to excess. You are not going to keep your job. So that's a really important way of understanding the development process of the foods. So let me ask a question about industry and intent. Because one could say that the industry engineers these things to have long shelf life and nice physical properties and the right colors and things like this. And these effects on metabolism and appetite and stuff are unpleasant and difficult side effects, but the foods weren't made to produce those things. They weren't made to produce over consumption and then in turn produce those negative consequences. You're saying something different. That you think that they're intentionally designed to promote over consumption. And in some ways, how could the industry do otherwise? I mean, every industry in the world wants people to over consume or consume as much of their product as they can. The food industry is no different. That is exactly right. The food industry behaves like every other corporation. In my view, they commit evil acts sometimes, but they're not institutionally evil. And I have dear friends who work in big food, who work in big pharma. I have friends who work in tobacco. These are not evil people. They're constrained by commercial incentives, right? So, when I say I think the food is engineered, I don't think it. I know it because I've gone and interviewed loads of people in product development at big food companies. I put some of these interviewees in a BBC documentary called Irresistible. So rather than me in the documentary going, oh, ultra-processed food is bad. And everyone going, well, you are, you're a public health bore. I just got industry insiders to say, yes, this is how we make the food. And going back to Howard Moskovitz, in the 1970s, I think he was working for the Campbell Soup Company. And Howard, who was a psychologist by training, outlined the development process. And what he said was then underlined by many other people I've spoken to. You develop two different products. This one's a little bit saltier than the next, and you test them on a bunch of people. People like the saltier ones. So now you keep the saltier one and you develop a third product and this one's got a bit more sugar in it. And if this one does better, well you keep this one and you keep AB testing until you get people buying and eating lots. And one of the crucial things that food companies measure in product development is how fast do people eat and how quickly do they eat. And these kind of development tools were pioneered by the tobacco industry. I mean, Laura Schmidt has done a huge amount of the work on this. She's at University of California, San Francisco (UCSF), in California. And we know the tobacco industry bought the food industry and for a while in the '80s and '90s, the biggest food companies in the world were also the biggest tobacco companies in the world. And they used their flavor molecules and their marketing techniques and their distribution systems. You know, they've got a set of convenience tools selling cigarettes all over the country. Well, why don't we sell long shelf-life food marketed in the same way? And one thing that the tobacco industry was extremely good at was figuring out how to get the most rapid delivery of the drug possible into the human body when people smoke. Do you think that some of that same thing is true for food, rapid delivery of sugar, let's say? How close does the drug parallel fit, do you think? So, that's part of the reason the speed of consumption is important. Now, I think Ashley Gearhardt has done some of the most incredible work on this. And what Ashley says is we think of addictive drugs as like it's the molecule that's addictive. It's nicotine, it's caffeine, cocaine, diamorphine, heroin, the amphetamines. What we get addicted to is the molecule. And that Ashley says no. The processing of that molecule is crucially important. If you have slow-release nicotine in a chewing gum, that can actually treat your nicotine addiction. It's not very addictive. Slow-release amphetamine we use to treat children with attention and behavioral problems. Slow-release cocaine is an anesthetic. You use it for dentistry. No one ever gets addicted to dental anesthetics. And the food is the same. The rewarding molecules in the food we think are mainly the fat and the sugar. And food that requires a lot of chewing and is slow eaten slowly, you don't deliver the reward as quickly. And it tends not to be very addictive. Very soft foods or liquid foods with particular fat sugar ratios, if you deliver the nutrients into the gut fast, that seems to be really important for driving excessive consumption. And I think the growing evidence around addiction is very persuasive. I mean, my patients report feeling addicted to the food. And I don't feel it's legitimate to question their experience. Chris, a little interesting story about that concept of food and addiction. So going back several decades I was a professor at Yale, and I was teaching a graduate course. Ashley Gerhardt was a student in that course. And, she was there to study addiction, not in the context of food, but I brought up the issue of, you know, could food be addictive? There's some interesting research on this. It's consistent with what we're hearing from people, and that seems a really interesting topic. And Ashley, I give her credit, took this on as her life's work and now she's like the leading expert in the world on this very important topic. And what's nice for me to recall that story is that how fast the science on this is developed. And now something's coming out on this almost every day. It's some new research on the neuroscience of food and addiction and how the food is hijacking in the brain. And that whole concept of addiction seems really important in this context. And I know you've talked a lot about that yourself. She has reframed, I think, this idea about the way that addictive substances and behaviors really work. I mean it turns everything on its head to go the processing is important. The thing the food companies have always been able to say is, look, you can't say food is addictive. It doesn't contain any addictive molecules. And with Ashley's work you go, no, but the thing is it contains rewarding molecules and actually the spectrum of molecules that we can find rewarding and we can deliver fast is much, much broader than the traditionally addictive substances. For policy, it's vital because part of regulating the tobacco industry was about showing they know they are making addictive products. And I think this is where Ashley's work and Laura Schmidt's work are coming together. With Laura's digging in the tobacco archive, Ashley's doing the science on addiction, and I think these two things are going to come together. And I think it's just going to be a really exciting space to watch. I completely agree. You know when most people think about the word addiction, they basically kind of default to thinking about how much you want something. How much, you know, you desire something. But there are other parts of it that are really relevant here too. I mean one is how do you feel if you don't have it and sort of classic withdrawal. And people talk about, for example, being on high sugar drinks and stopping them and having withdrawal symptoms and things like that. And the other part of it that I think is really interesting here is tolerance. You know whether you need more of the substance over time in order to get the same reward benefit. And that hasn't been studied as much as the other part of addiction. But there's a lot to the picture other than just kind of craving things. And I would say that the thing I like about this is it chimes with my. Personal experience, which is, I have tried alcohol and cigarettes and I should probably end that list there. But I've never had any real desire for more of them. They aren't the things that tickle my brain. Whereas the food is a thing that I continue to struggle with. I would say in some senses, although I no longer like ultra-processed food at some level, I still want it. And I think of myself to some degree, without trivializing anyone's experience, to some degree I think I'm in sort of recovery from it. And it remains that tussle. I mean I don't know what you think about the difference between the kind of wanting and liking of different substances. Some scientists think those two things are quite, quite different. That you can like things you don't want, and you can want things you don't like. Well, that's exactly right. In the context of food and traditional substances of abuse, for many of them, people start consuming because they produce some sort of desired effect. But that pretty quickly goes away, and people then need the substance because if they don't have it, they feel terrible. So, you know, morphine or heroin or something like that always produces positive effects. But that initial part of the equation where you just take it because you like it turns into this needing it and having to have it. And whether that same thing exists with food is an interesting topic. I think the other really important part of the addiction argument in policy terms is that one counterargument by industrial scientists and advocates is by raising awareness around ultra-processed food we are at risk of driving, eating disorders. You know? The phenomenon of orthorexia, food avoidance, anorexia. Because all food is good food. There should be no moral value attached to food and we mustn't drive any food anxiety. And I think there are some really strong voices in the United Kingdom Eating Disorder scientists. People like Agnes Ayton, who are starting to say, look, when food is engineered, using brain scanners and using scientific development techniques to be consumed to excess, is it any wonder that people develop a disordered relationship with the food? And there may be a way of thinking about the rise of eating disorders, which is parallel to the rise of our consumption of ultra-processed food, that eating disorders are a reasonable response to a disordered food environment. And I think that's where I say all that somewhat tentatively. I feel like this is a safe space where you will correct me if I go off piste. But I think it's important to at least explore that question and go, you know, this is food with which it is very hard, I would say, to have a healthy relationship. That's my experience. And I think the early research is bearing that out. Tell us how these foods affect your hunger, how full you feel, your microbiome. That whole sort of interactive set of signals that might put people in harmony with food in a normal environment but gets thrown off when the foods get processed like this. Oh, I love that question. At some level as I'm understanding that question, one way of trying to answer that question is to go, well, what is the normal physiological response to food? Or maybe how do wild animals find, consume, and then interpret metabolically the food that they eat. And it is staggering how little we know about how we learn what food is safe and what food nourishes us. What's very clear is that wild mammals, and in fact all wild animals, are able to maintain near perfect energy balance. Obesity is basically unheard of in the wild. And, perfect nutritional intake, I mean, obviously there are famines in wild animals, but broadly, animals can do this without being literate, without being given packaging, without any nutritional advice at all. So, if you imagine an ungulate, an herbivore on the plains of the Serengeti, it has a huge difficulty. The carnivore turning herbivore into carnivore is fairly easy. They're made of the same stuff. Turning plant material into mammal is really complicated. And somehow the herbivore can do this without gaining weight, whilst maintaining total precision over its selenium intake, its manganese, its cobalt, its iron, all of which are terrible if you have too little and also terrible if you have too much. We understand there's some work done in a few wild animals, goats, and rats about how this works. Clearly, we have an ability to sense the nutrition we want. What we understand much more about is the sort of quantities needed. And so, we've ended up with a system of nutritional advice that says, well, just eat these numbers. And if you can stick to the numbers, 2,500 calories a day, 2300 milligrams of sodium, no more than 5% of your calories from free sugar or 10%, whatever it is, you know, you stick to these numbers, you'll be okay. And also, these many milligrams of cobalt, manganese, selenium, iron, zinc, all the rest of it. And obviously people can't really do that even with the packaging. This is a very long-winded answer. So, there's this system that is exquisitely sensitive at regulating micronutrient and energy intake. And what we understand, what the Academy understands about how ultra-processed food subverts this is, I would say there are sort of three or four big things that ultra-processed does that real food doesn't. It's generally very soft. And it's generally very energy dense. And that is true of even the foods that we think of as being healthy. That's like your supermarket whole grain bread. It's incredibly energy dense. It's incredibly soft. You eat calories very fast, and this research was done in the '90s, you know we've known that that kind of food promotes excessive intake. I guess in simple terms, and you would finesse this, you consume calories before your body has time to go, well, you've eaten enough. You can consume an excess. Then there's the ratios of fat, salt, and sugar and the way you can balance them, and any good cook knows if you can get the acid, fat, salt, sugar ratios right, you can make incredibly delicious food. That's kind of what I would call hyper palatability. And a lot of that work's being done in the states (US) by some incredible people. Then the food may be that because it's low in fiber and low in protein, quite often it's not satiating. And there may be, because it's also low in micronutrients and general nutrition, it may be that, and this is a little bit theoretical, but there's some evidence for this. Part of what drives the excess consumption is you're kind of searching for the nutrients. The nutrients are so dilute that you have to eat loads of it in order to get enough. Do you think, does that, is that how you understand it? It does, it makes perfect sense. In fact, I'm glad you brought up one particular issue because part of the ultra-processing that makes foods difficult for the body to deal with involves what gets put in, but also what gets taken out. And there was a study that got published recently that I think you and I might have discussed earlier on American breakfast cereals. And this study looked at how the formulation of them had changed over a period of about 20 years. And what they found is that the industry had systematically removed the protein and the fiber and then put in more things like sugar. So there, there's both what goes in and what gets taken out of foods that affects the body in this way. You know, what I hear you saying, and what I, you know, believe myself from the science, is the body's pretty capable of handling the food environment if food comes from the natural environment. You know, if you sit down to a meal of baked chicken and some beans and some leafy greens and maybe a little fruit or something, you're not going to overdo it. Over time you'd end up with the right mix of nutrients and things like that and you'd be pretty healthy. But all bets are off when these foods get processed and engineered, so you over consume them. You found that out in the experiment that you did on yourself. And then that's what science shows too. So, it's not like these things are sort of benign. People overeat them and they ought to just push away from the table. There's a lot more going on here in terms of hijacking the brain chemistry. Overriding the body signals. Really thwarting normal biology. Do you think it's important to add that we think of obesity as being the kind of dominant public health problem? That's the thing we all worry about. But the obesity is going hand in hand with stunting, for example. So, height as you reach adulthood in the US, at 19 US adults are something like eight or nine centimeters shorter than their counterparts in Northern Europe, Scandinavia, where people still eat more whole food. And we should come back to that evidence around harms, because I think the really important thing to say around the evidence is it has now reached the threshold for causality. So, we can say a dietary pattern high in ultra-processed food causes all of these negative health outcomes. That doesn't mean that any one product is going to kill you. It just means if this is the way you get your food, it's going to be harmful. And if all the evidence says, I mean, we've known this for decades. If you can cook the kind of meal, you just described at home, which is more or less the way that high income people eat, you are likely to have way better health outcomes across the board. Let me ask you about the title of your book. So, the subtitle of your book is Why We Can't Stop Eating Food That Isn't Food. So, what is it? The ultra-processed definition is something I want to pay credit for. It's really important to pay a bit of credit here. Carlos Montero was the scientist in Brazil who led a team who together came up with this definition. And, I was speaking to Fernanda Rauber who was on that team, and we were trying to discuss some research we were doing. And every time I said food, she'd correct me and go, it is not, it's not food, Chris. It's an industrially produced edible substance. And that was a really helpful thing for me personally, it's something it went into my brain, and I sat down that night. I was actually on the UPF diet, and I sat down to eat some fried chicken wings from a popular chain that many people will know. And was unable to finish them. I think our shared understanding of the purpose of food is surely that its purpose is to nourish us. Whether it's, you know, sold by someone for this purpose, or whether it's made by someone at home. You know it should nourish us spiritually, socially, culturally, and of course physically and mentally. And ultra-processed food nourishes us in no dimension whatsoever. It destroys traditional knowledge, traditional land, food culture. You don't sit down with your family and break, you know, ultra-processed, you know, crisps together. You know, you break bread. To me that's a kind of very obvious distortion of what it's become. So, I don't think it is food. You know, I think it's not too hard of a stretch to see a time when people might consider these things non-food. Because if you think of food, what's edible and whether it's food or not is completely socially constructed. I mean, some parts of the world, people eat cockroaches or ants or other insects. And in other parts of the world that's considered non-food. So just because something's edible doesn't mean that it's food. And I wonder if at some point we might start to think of these things as, oh my God, these are awful. They're really bad for us. The companies are preying on us, and it's just not food. And yeah, totally your book helps push us in that direction. I love your optimism. The consumer facing marketing budget of a big food company is often in excess of $10 billion a year. And depends how you calculate it. I'll give you a quick quiz on this. So, for a while, the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation was by far the biggest funder of research in the world on childhood obesity. And they were spending $500 million a year to address this problem. Just by which day of the year the food industry has already spent $500 million just advertising just junk food just to children. Okay, so the Robert V. Wood Foundation is spending it and they were spending that annually. Annually, right. So, what's, by what day of the year is the food industry already spent that amount? Just junk food advertising just to kids. I'm going to say by somewhere in early spring. No. January 4th. I mean, it's hysterical, but it's also horrifying. So, this is the genius of ultra-processed food, of the definition and the science, is that it creates this category which is discretionary. And so at least in theory, of course, for many people in the US it's not discretionary at all. It's the only stuff they can afford. But this is why the food industry hate it so much is because it offers the possibility of going, we can redefine food. And there is all this real food over there. And there is this UPF stuff that isn't food over here. But industry's very sophisticated, you know. I mean, they push back very hard against me in many different ways and forms. And they're very good at going, well, you're a snob. How dare you say that families with low incomes, that they're not eating food. Are you calling them dupes? Are you calling them stupid? You know, they're very, very sophisticated at positioning. Isn't it nice how concerned they are about the wellbeing of people without means? I mean they have created a pricing structure and a food subsidy environment and a tax environment where essentially people with low incomes in your country, in my country, are forced to eat food that harms them. So, one of the tells I think is if you're hearing someone criticize ultra-processed food, and you'll read them in the New York Times. And often their conflicts of interest won't be reported. They may be quite hidden. The clue is, are they demanding to seriously improve the food environment in a very clear way, or are they only criticizing the evidence around ultra-processed food? And if they're only criticizing that evidence? I'll bet you a pound to a pinch of salt they'll be food-industry funded. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that a little more. So, there's a clear pattern of scientists who take money from industry finding things that favor industry. Otherwise, industry wouldn't pay that money. They're not stupid in the way they invest. And, you and I have talked about this before, but we did a study some years ago where we looked at industry and non-industry funded study on the health effects of consuming sugar sweetened beverages. And it's like the ocean parted. It's one of my favorites. And it was something like 98 or 99% of the independently funded studies found that sugar sweetened beverages do cause harm. And 98 or 99% of the industry funded studies funded by Snapple and Coke and a whole bunch of other companies found that they did not cause harm. It was that stark, was it? It was. And so you and I pay attention to the little print in these scientific studies about who's funded them and who might have conflicts of interest. And maybe you and I and other people who follow science closely might be able to dismiss those conflicted studies. But they have a big impact out there in the world, don't they? I had a meeting in London with someone recently, that they themselves were conflicted and they said, look, if a health study's funded by a big sugary drink company, if it's good science, that's fine. We should publish it and we should take it at face value. And in the discussion with them, I kind of accepted that, we were talking about other things. And afterwards I was like, no. If a study on human health is funded by a sugary drink corporation, in my opinion, we could just tear that up. None of that should be published. No journals should publish those studies and scientists should not really call themselves scientists who are doing it. It is better thought of as marketing and food industry-funded scientists who study human health, in my opinion, are better thought of as really an extension of the marketing division of the companies. You know, it's interesting when you talk to scientists, and you ask them do people who take money from industry is their work influenced by that money? They'll say yes. Yeah, but if you say, but if you take money from industry, will your work be influenced? They'll always say no. Oh yeah. There's this tremendous arrogance, blind spot, whatever it is that. I can remain untarnished. I can remain objective, and I can help change the industry from within. In the meantime, I'm having enough money to buy a house in the mountains, you know, from what they're paying me, and it's really pretty striking. Well, the money is a huge issue. You know, science, modern science it's not a very lucrative career compared to if someone like you went and worked in industry, you would add a zero to the end of your salary, possibly more. And the same is true of me. I think one of the things that adds real heft to the independent science is that the scientists are taking a pay cut to do it. So how do children figure in? Do you think children are being groomed by the industry to eat these foods? A senator, I think in Chile, got in hot water for comparing big food companies to kind of sex offenders. He made, in my view, a fairly legitimate comparison. I mean, the companies are knowingly selling harmful products that have addictive properties using the language of addiction to children who even if they could read warning labels, the warning labels aren't on the packs. So, I mean, we have breakfast cereals called Crave. We have slogans like, once you stop, once you pop, you can't stop. Bet you can't just eat one. Yeah, I think it is predatory and children are the most vulnerable group in our society. And you can't just blame the parents. Once kids get to 10, they have a little bit of money. They get their pocket money, they're walking to school, they walk past stores. You know, you have to rely on them making decisions. And at the moment, they're in a very poor environment to make good decisions. Perhaps the most important question of all what can be done. So, I'm speaking to you at a kind of funny moment because I've been feeling that a lot of my research and advocacy, broadcasting... you know, I've made documentaries, podcasts, I've written a book, I've published these papers. I've been in most of the major newspapers and during the time I've been doing this, you know, a little under 10 years I've been really focused on food. Much less time than you. Everything has got worse. Everything I've done has really failed totally. And I think this is a discussion about power, about unregulated corporate power. And the one glimmer of hope is this complaint that's been filed in Pennsylvania by a big US law firm. It's a very detailed complaint and some lawyers on behalf of a young person called Bryce Martinez are suing the food industry for causing kidney problems and type two diabetes. And I think that in the end is what's going to be needed. Strategic litigation. That's the only thing that worked with tobacco. All of the science, it eventually was useful, but the science on its own and the advocacy and the campaigning and all of it did no good until the lawyers said we would like billions and billions of dollars in compensation please. You know, this is an exciting moment, but there were a great many failed lawsuits for tobacco before the master settlement agreement in the '90s really sort of changed the game. You know, I agree with you. Are you, are you optimistic? I mean, what do you think? I am, and for exactly the same reason you are. You know, the poor people that worked on public health and tobacco labored for decades without anything happening long, long after the health consequences of cigarette smoking were well known. And we've done the same thing. I mean, those us who have been working in the field for all these years have seen precious little in the ways of policy advances. Now tobacco has undergone a complete transformation with high taxes on cigarettes, and marketing restrictions, and non-smoking in public places, laws, and things like that, that really have completely driven down the consumption of cigarettes, which has been a great public health victory. But what made those policies possible was the litigation that occurred by the state attorneys general, less so the private litigating attorneys. But the state attorneys general in the US that had discovery documents released. People began to understand more fully the duplicity of the tobacco companies. That gave cover for the politicians to start passing the policies that ultimately made the big difference. I think that same history is playing out here. The state attorneys general, as we both know, are starting to get interested in this. I say hurray to that. There is the private lawsuit that you mentioned, and there's some others in the mix as well. I think those things will bring a lot of propel the release of internal documents that will show people what the industry has been doing and how much of this they've known all along. And then all of a sudden some of these policy things like taxes, for example, on sugared beverages, might come in and really make a difference. That's my hope. But it makes me optimistic. Well, I'm really pleased to hear that because I think in your position it would be possible. You know, I'm still, two decades behind where I might be in my pessimism. One of the kind of engines of this problem to me is these conflicts of interest where people who say, I'm a physician, I'm a scientist, I believe all this. And they're quietly paid by the food industry. This was the major way the tobacco industry had a kind of social license. They were respectable. And I do hope the lawsuits, one of their functions is it becomes a little bit embarrassing to say my research institute is funded [by a company that keeps making headlines every day because more documents are coming out in court, and they're being sued by more and more people. So, I hope that this will diminish the conflict, particularly between scientists and physicians in the food industry. Because that to me, those are my biggest opponents. The food industry is really nice. They throw money at me. But it's the conflicted scientists that are really hard to argue with because they appear so respectable. Bio Dr. Chris van Tulleken is a physician and a professor of Infection and Global Health at University College London. He trained at Oxford and earned his PhD in molecular virology from University College London. His research focuses on how corporations affect human health especially in the context of child nutrition and he works with UNICEF and The World Health Organization on this area. He is the author of a book entitled Ultraprocessed People: Why We Can't Stop Eating Food That Isn't Food. As one of the BBC's leading broadcasters for children and adults his work has won two BAFTAs. He lives in London with his wife and two children.

Singer, Songwriter, and fellow Jonas Brothers fan Robert Cole Jr. stops by the podcast to chat all things Jonas Brothers with B.B., and the current campaign to sing Kevin Jonas's solo song "Scandinavia" at the upcoming Phoenix date of their current 'Greetings From Your Hometown' tour celebrating 20 years of the band. Learn More and Support Robert: IG/Tiktok: @Robertcolejr__4 (There are two underscores)Linktree: https://linktr.ee/Robertcolejr__4Shoutout Arizona Article: https://shoutoutarizona.com/meet-robert-cole-jr-singer-songwriter-musician/Voyage Phoenix Article: https://voyagephoenix.com/interview/rising-stars-meet-robert-cole-jr-of-scottsdaleStream Robert's debut single "Home" available on ALL platforms: https://artists.landr.com/990591113466Audio and Video provided by our friends at Riverside.FM!Learn More about Trending Topics with BB Podcast: https://linktr.ee/ttwithbbLearn More about BB Media Industries, LLC: https://linktr.ee/bbmediaindustries

With a large domestic market for wine, US producers often don't focus a lot on exports. Honore Comfort, VP of International Marketing for Wine Institute, lays out the benefits and challenges of exporting wines globally. She covers the top markets for US wine globally, the role Wine Institute plays in helping US exports, and the potential impacts of the current trade war. Detailed Show Notes: Wine Institute overviewMembers are CA wineries (>1,000)Public policy organization focused on legislation (e.g., DTC shipping)Member dues are a sliding scale (based on prior year revenue & volume), baseline is a few hundred dollarsCA is the 4th largest wine region in the world after France, Italy, and SpainLargest market in the USThe US market is 75% domestic (80% from CA), 25% importsExport is 4% (by value), 95% is CATraditionally lower-priced wines, now a barbell (both low and high, but not mid-priced wines)Other countries have high taxes, duties, and tariffs on imported wines (int'l pricing often 2-3x US retail, 10x for India)Cost to produce is high in CA (heavily regulated - environmental & labor force protections; land costs high)Goal to showcase the diversity of CA wine globally, but only a sliver is available Key int'l markets - Canada (#1 until Feb 2025; ~30% of US exports - premiers took all wine off shelves as part of trade war); Europe #2 (Germany is hard w/ strong domestic, low priced market; Scandinavia big); UK #3 (punches above its weight as oldest wine market, lots of wine writers, critics, traders; one of the broadest selections of CA wine); China, Japan, Korea, MexicoWine Institute has active programs in >30 countries for CA winesBenefits of exporting wine: importers sell wine for you (no 3-tier system like the US), build brand visibility, position wines next to other great wines of the worldChallenges of exporting wine - takes investment, needs face-to-face storytellingSmall Napa producer (

Pro wrestling championships often have some sort of regional designation in their name to distinguish them, à la the United States Championship or the Intercontinental Championship. The WWE European Championship was one such title (though its list of champions wasn't exactly a map of the EU). On this episode, Andrew is joined by returning guest Paul Völsch (Emerald FlowShow) to play artists who are from Continental Europe. To clarify, there will be no UK or Ireland representation, but Scandinavia and Iceland are included. Artists featured include Röyksopp (Norway), Peter Fox (Germany), Air (France), Måneskin (Italy), Björk (Iceland), Sabaton (Sweden), DJ Sammy (Spain), and many more. Grab a Eurail Pass and pack a bag, we're heading on a European tour!Theme song: "Hemispheres" by Silent PartnerBluesky: @MusicoftheMat / @justandrewAll VOW podcasts, articles, previews, and reviews: VoicesofWrestling.comJoin the VOW Discord to discuss Music of the Mat and other shows/topics: VoicesofWrestling.com/DiscordDonate to Music of the Mat and other VOW podcasts: VoicesofWrestling.com/DonateAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Most people mess up not on what they observe… but on the conclusions they draw. In this episode, I break down how to train your brain for deeper thinking, challenge your “ipso facto” logic, and avoid the unknown unknowns that sabotage your success. I cover everything from using AI (ChatGPT) in the shower to rewire your beliefs, to why Scandinavia and the Amish have cracked the code on happiness, love, and health. Whether you're chasing wealth, better relationships, or purpose — this episode will give you a new lens to see the world through.Want me and my team to build your personal brand or marketing systems?Book a call at: