Podcasts about multipliers

In this episode, host Keri Smith, Global Lead for AI and Data in Banking & Capital Markets at Accenture, sits down with Adrian Crockett, General Partner and Head of EJ Labs at Edward Jones to explore what it truly means to democratize AI across a 55,000-person organization, how to empower non-engineers to safely build and deploy agents, close the AI value gap, and shift from isolated pilots to a platform-first mindset without sacrificing speed or governance.

Shawn Vanderhoven is the author of the USA Today bestseller Pause: How to Lead Brilliant Work in a Busy World and a Partner at The Wiseman Group, where he leads the executive development practice for senior leaders and rising talent. A collaborator on the New York Times bestseller Multipliers: How the Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter (Second Edition), Shawn co-designs strategies that help organizations amplify their people, advising leaders at companies like Amazon, Alphabet, Adobe, Microsoft, and Salesforce. He holds a BS in History from Brigham Young University and lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with his wife, Anne, dedicated to helping leaders create the conditions where teams can focus on what matters most. In the Church, Shawn has served as an Elders Quorum President and holds a deep passion for working with the rising generation, having served as a Young Men president four different times. Links Pause: How to Lead Brilliant Work in a Busy World LinkedIn: Shawn Vanderhoven Watch the video and share your thoughts in the Zion Lab community Transcript available with the video in the Zion Lab community Highlights Shawn Vanderhoven discusses concepts from his book Pause: How to Lead Brilliant Work in a Busy World. The conversation explores how leaders can help their teams avoid constant distractions, hyperconnectivity, and superficial busyness. Shawn highlights how shifting from an action-oriented mindset to an impact-oriented approach creates room for meaningful focus in both corporate and Church settings. 00:03:42 – The Moment of Inspiration for Writing the Book 00:04:52 – Chaos and Lack of Clarity in Leadership 00:06:46 – Research on Focus and Distraction 00:08:31 – The Impact of Hyper-Connectivity on Leadership 00:10:13 – Challenges Faced by Church Leaders 00:12:10 – The Default of Hyper-Connected Communication 00:13:07 – Advice for Leaders in the Whirlwind 00:14:26 – Assumptions About Work and Meetings 00:15:27 – Bias Towards Action vs. Bias Towards Impact 00:18:57 – Clarity in Leadership and Prioritization 00:20:30 – The Importance of Focus in Leadership 00:22:25 – Creating a Culture of Open Communication 00:23:43 – Delegation and Respecting Time 00:25:35 – Counseling Before Extending Callings 00:30:25 – Tuning In Before Jumping In 00:32:20 – The Role of Revelation in Leadership Decisions 00:37:54 – Respecting Individual Circumstances in Callings Key Insights Action vs. Impact: A bias toward action often causes frantic busyness and shifting priorities, whereas a bias toward impact prioritizes high-value outcomes and clear goals. Clarify Priorities: The primary source of distraction for most teams is a lack of clear priorities. Focusing on a few core objectives reduces burnout and improves execution. Counseling Before Calling: Extending callings or tasks effectively requires counseling with individuals beforehand to understand their current capacity and life constraints. Holding a Clearing: Creating structured systems where individuals can express emotional or interpersonal frustrations removes distractions and clears the mental runway for high-level work. Establishing “House Rules”: Leaders must set explicit expectations around communication and meetings to prevent hyperconnectivity from overwhelming team members. Put Growth on the Agenda: Dedicating regular time in one-on-one meetings to align an individual’s personal development with organizational needs builds long-term commitment. Leadership Applications Define What Not to Do: When focusing a ward or organization on specific spiritual goals, leaders should explicitly set aside lower-priority initiatives so members can direct their energy effectively. Tune In Before Jumping In: Instead of utilizing “drive-by delegation” or abrupt task handoffs, leaders should ask what someone is currently managing and discuss what can be removed from their plate to accommodate new assignments. Set Clear Communication Boundaries: Bishoprics and council leaders can establish ward “house rules” regarding text messaging, response times, and off-hours communication to protect personal lives and prevent burnout. The award-winning Leading Saints Podcast is one of the top independent Latter-day Saints podcasts as part of nonprofit Leading Saints’ mission to help Latter-day Saints be better prepared to lead. Find Leadership Tools, Courses, and Community for Latter-day Saint leaders in the Zion Lab community. Learn more and listen to any of the past episodes for free at LeadingSaints.org. Past guests include Emily Belle Freeman, David Butler, Hank Smith, John Bytheway, Reyna and Elena Aburto, Liz Wiseman, Stephen M. R. Covey, Benjamin Hardy, Elder Alvin F. Meredith III, Julie Beck, Brad Wilcox, Jody Moore, Tony Overbay, John H. Groberg, Elaine Dalton, Tad R. Callister, Lynn G. Robbins, J. Devn Cornish, Bonnie Oscarson, Dennis B. Neuenschwander, Kirby Heyborne, Taysom Hill, Coaches Jennifer Rockwood and Brandon Doman, Anthony Sweat, John Hilton III, Barbara Morgan Gardner, Blair Hodges, Whitney Johnson, Ryan Gottfredson, Greg McKeown, Ganel-Lyn Condie, Michael Goodman, Wendy Ulrich, Richard Ostler, and many more in over 800 episodes. Discover podcasts, articles, virtual conferences, and live events related to callings such as the bishopric, Relief Society, elders quorum, Primary, youth leadership, stake leadership, ward mission, ward council, young adults, ministering, and teaching.

Ross Hudgens welcomes Jason Cohen, founder of WP Engine and Smart Bear, to unpack the "multipliers" behind outsized marketing results. They get into how WP Engine grew affiliates into a channel competitors couldn't touch, why most A/B testing quietly produces nothing, and Jason's core argument that the quality of traffic at the top of your funnel matters more than everything below it combined. Along the way: exclusivity deals, multi-brand strategy, defining a truly actionable ideal customer, and why showing your product's bad reviews can actually lift sales. Show Notes 00:00 Intro 00:57 The affiliate power curve 03:00 The "magic wand" test 10:19 Affiliates, brand value & AI search 15:12 Defining your ideal customer 22:42 Why your A/B test wins disappear (false positives) 28:27 Why A/B testing fails for SEO 33:49 Traffic quality beats everything else in the funnel 39:04 How to actually get higher-quality traffic 52:22 Why showing bad reviews boosts sales Show Links Jason on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncohen/ WP Engine: https://wpengine.com/ Jason's Book "Hidden Multipliers: Jumpstart Growth With Your Existing Budget and Team"A Smart Bear: https://longform.asmartbear.com/jason-cohen/ Preorder "Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO" by Ross Hudgens: https://a.co/d/0e5jdspP Subscribe for weekly episodes: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast... Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGX... Follow Ross on X: https://x.com/rosshudgens Follow Siege Media on X: https://x.com/siegemedia Subscribe today for weekly tips: https://bit.ly/3dBM61f Listen on iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/content-and-conversation-seo-tips-from-siege-media/id1289467174 Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/1kiaFGXO5UcT2qXVRuXjsM Listen on Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9mZWVkcy5zaW1wbGVjYXN0LmNvbS9jT3NjUkdLeA Follow Siege on Twitter: http://twitter.com/siegemedia Follow Ross on Twitter: http://twitter.com/rosshudgens Directed by Cara Brown: https://twitter.com/cararbrown Email Ross: ross@siegemedia.com #seo | #contentmarketing

While agents and LLMs haven't fundamentally changed core mobile vulnerability types, they have supercharged speed, scale, and accessibility—democratizing threats like automated phishing, synthetic identity fraud, and easier identification of hard-coded secrets. Ryan Lloyd and Jason Cortlund break down how threat actors leverage LLMs as a force multiplier to accelerate mobile app attacks. Then we discuss actionable defense strategies, from viewing agents as an active adversary to leveraging server-side threat telemetry, attestation, and layered defense strategies combined with polymorphic code releases. This segment is sponsored by Guardsquare. Visit https://securityweekly.com/guardsquare to learn more about them! Visit https://www.securityweekly.com/asw for all the latest episodes! Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/asw-400

While agents and LLMs haven't fundamentally changed core mobile vulnerability types, they have supercharged speed, scale, and accessibility—democratizing threats like automated phishing, synthetic identity fraud, and easier identification of hard-coded secrets. Ryan Lloyd and Jason Cortlund break down how threat actors leverage LLMs as a force multiplier to accelerate mobile app attacks. Then we discuss actionable defense strategies, from viewing agents as an active adversary to leveraging server-side threat telemetry, attestation, and layered defense strategies combined with polymorphic code releases. This segment is sponsored by Guardsquare. Visit https://securityweekly.com/guardsquare to learn more about them! Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/asw-400

While agents and LLMs haven't fundamentally changed core mobile vulnerability types, they have supercharged speed, scale, and accessibility—democratizing threats like automated phishing, synthetic identity fraud, and easier identification of hard-coded secrets. Ryan Lloyd and Jason Cortlund break down how threat actors leverage LLMs as a force multiplier to accelerate mobile app attacks. Then we discuss actionable defense strategies, from viewing agents as an active adversary to leveraging server-side threat telemetry, attestation, and layered defense strategies combined with polymorphic code releases. This segment is sponsored by Guardsquare. Visit https://securityweekly.com/guardsquare to learn more about them! Visit https://www.securityweekly.com/asw for all the latest episodes! Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/asw-400

While agents and LLMs haven't fundamentally changed core mobile vulnerability types, they have supercharged speed, scale, and accessibility—democratizing threats like automated phishing, synthetic identity fraud, and easier identification of hard-coded secrets. Ryan Lloyd and Jason Cortlund break down how threat actors leverage LLMs as a force multiplier to accelerate mobile app attacks. Then we discuss actionable defense strategies, from viewing agents as an active adversary to leveraging server-side threat telemetry, attestation, and layered defense strategies combined with polymorphic code releases. This segment is sponsored by Guardsquare. Visit https://securityweekly.com/guardsquare to learn more about them! Show Notes: https://securityweekly.com/asw-400

Leave an Amazon Rating or Review for my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy!Check out the full episode: https://greatness.lnk.to/1403DMRory Vaden explains how top performers multiply time instead of just managing it. He details the evolution of time management from efficiency to prioritizing and now to significance. Vaden advises calculating importance not just urgency, asking how long something will matter. Multipliers break free of one-day thinking, giving themselves permission to invest time today that creates more time tomorrow.Sign up for the Greatness newsletter! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This is Us: Part 6 - MultiplierJohn 15:8, Acts 1:4-8, Matthew 28:18-20 When you hear the phrase "The Great Commission," what is your initial reaction? The tendency is to relegate the carrying out of this command to those who are "called," or perhaps to those of a certain personality type. But if we follow Christ, the command to make disciples applies to us all—to the introvert as well as to the extrovert; to the lawyer and the barista as well as to the pastor and the career missionary. Every follower of Jesus is called to live with gospel intentionality in a way that results in true multiplication.  Who is following Christ by imitating me?

Il n'a que 19 ans et certains redoutent déjà qu'il ne soit le "nouveau Rocancourt". Eddie Goujit est de retour en détention provisoire, soupçonné d'avoir à nouveau escroqué plusieurs personnes dans le sud de la France. En 2025, il avait été une première fois interpellé, suspecté de s'être fait passer, entre autres, pour un élu de la région PACA. Pour cela, il avait été mis en examen et incarcéré notamment pour "usurpation de titres", "escroqueries" et "vols".Une remise en liberté lui avait été accordée dans l'attente d'un éventuel procès. Son contrôle judiciaire a pourtant été révoqué le 20 août dernier: Eddie Goujit est désormais de retour en prison après avoir fait signer de faux contrats de travail en se faisant passer pour le futur directeur d'un camping.Comment les mensonges présumés d'Eddie Goujit ont-ils pu le conduire derrière les barreaux? Quelles sont ses motivations?Dans cet épisode d'Affaire suivante le podcast inédit, Logann, l'un des plaignants, raconte au micro de Pauline Revenaz et d'Elisa Fernandez ce qui lui est arrivé.

Quand le président chinois rencontre son homologue égyptien, de quoi parlent-ils ? La réponse peut paraître surprenante : ils parlent de pneus de voitures ! La visite de Xi Jinping début septembre au Caire a scellé la construction de deux futurs pôles industriels en Égypte. Les Chinois produiront des pneus automobiles, notamment dans la zone économique du Canal de Suez. Déjà considérée comme une porte vers l'Europe, l'Égypte, et au-delà le Moyen-Orient, vont prendre de la valeur dans le transport mondial. En bâtissant leurs futures usines et entrepôts près du Canal de Suez pour les unes ou dans la région d'Alexandrie, au nord du pays pour les autres, les Chinois s'assurent d'avoir l'accès à la mer. C'est-à-dire aux exportations vers les pays voisins de la région du Moyen-Orient, mais aussi du reste du continent africain et vers l'Europe. Le pneu d'autos, de bus et de camions    Pour Sacha Courtial, chercheur à l'Institut Jacques Delors à Paris, le choix du produit est habile. Avec les pneus, de bus, d'autos ou de camions, le succès chinois est assuré. « Le pneu est très intéressant puisqu'on en a besoin sur des véhicules thermiques, des véhicules électriques, mais aussi pour les futurs véhicules autonomes. C'est un matériau qui se remplace. Ces usines dédiées aux accessoires du transport se construisent au Moyen-Orient, en Égypte et au Maroc. Les Chinois investissent aussi ailleurs en Afrique, en Tanzanie, au Kenya ou en Zambie. Stratégie du « moindre risque » En langage d'expert économique, on appelle cela le « Dérisking » ou la stratégie de moindre risque. Car avec la guerre au Moyen-Orient, le blocage du détroit d'Ormuz et toutes les difficultés d'acheminement vers le Golfe persique, un lieu de transit entre l'Occident et l'Asie, la Chine - comme d'autres grandes puissances - a dû revoir sa stratégie de transport. Terminée la logique de routes mondiales partagées, place désormais à la logique du pays par pays, région par région. Un mot résume bien cette évolution, le corridor économique. La Chine, l'Inde, les États-Unis et l'Europe misent sur ce type de transactions, explique Alexandre Negrus, le président de l'Institut d'études géopolitique appliquée à Paris : « Pékin cherche à éviter le piège d'une route unique et la Chine entend disposer de plusieurs routes capables de se relayer en cas de blocage sur l'une d'elles, où chaque perturbation sur un point va rejaillir sur les autres. On appelle cela la redondance stratégique des flux. L'Égypte s'inscrit dans cette logique. La puissance contemporaine se mesure de moins en moins à la possession d'un territoire et de plus en plus à la capacité de contrôler ou de contourner les points de passage qui structurent le commerce mondial ». À la suite de l'annonce de ces usines chinoises de pneus en Égypte, les industriels se divisent entre les « pour » et les « contre » ! Certains y voient une concurrence, voire une prédation chinoise qui rêverait d'avaler l'entièreté du marché automobile, d'autres veulent y participer en proposant des collaborations pour des produits adaptés aux marchés régionaux.     À lire aussiEn Égypte, Xi Jinping veut renforcer l'influence chinoise face aux États-Unis

Free Copy of My Book: Building Wealth In the TSP: Your Road Map To Financial Freedom as A Federal Employee: https://app.hawsfederaladvisors.com/free-tsp-e-book Want to schedule a consultation? Click here: https://app.hawsfederaladvisors.com/whatservicemakessense I am a practicing financial planner, but I'm not your financial planner. Please consult with your own tax, legal and financial advisors for personalized advice.

Your competence got you promoted, no doubt about it. But now that you're in a leadership seat, it might be the very thing that sabotages your leadership imprint.In this episode of The Inner Edge, executive coach Janet Ioli unpacks the fourth leadership trap: an identity so fused with personal competence that it becomes almost impossible to let go of, even after the job and scope have completely changed. The habits that earned the promotion are often the exact habits sabotaging it.Success used to depend on what you could personally produce, but now it depends on the opposite skill, and nobody hands you a new operating system when they hand you the title.Janet also draws on attachment researchers John Bowlby and Dan Siegel to explain why self-reliance under pressure is a wired-in safety strategy and shares the mirror question and practice that starts to interrupt it.This is the fifth episode in an eight-part series on the seven leadership traps, based on Janet's upcoming book, Escape the Traps (releasing October 2026).Chapters:00:00:00 The Trait That Got You Promoted Now Limits You 00:00:47 Three Leaders, One Hidden Pattern 00:04:31 The Identity Fused With Personal Competence 00:05:50 The Attachment Research Behind Self-Reliance 00:10:11 The Mirror Question: From Bottleneck to Multiplier 00:12:28 Next Episode: Trap 5Read the first chapter of Escape The Traps (available October 2026): https://mailchi.mp/5d2dbf42009c/escape-the-traps-chapterWhich trap is running you? Take the quiz and find out: https://tally.so/r/lb4Z4pConnect with Janet Ioli:Website: janetioli.comLinkedIn: Janet IoliInstagram: @janetioliYouTube: @janetioliIf you want to become more grounded, confident, and aligned with your deeper values in just 21 days, check out Janet Ioli's book Less Ego, More Soul: A Modern Reinvention Guide for Women.If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts.  Select “Listen in Apple Podcasts,” then choose the “Ratings & Reviews” tab to share what you think.  Produced by Ideablossoms 

The biggest creative risk? Not being creative enough. System1's Andrew Tindall joins WARC's Ann Marie Kerwin to discuss the multiplier effect of creativity, how brands can be more creative, and why it's essential to marketing that truly moves the dial for brands. Read The Multiplier Playbook research from WARC here: https://www.warc.com/en/the-multiplier-playbook-2026 Watch WARC's podcast on The Creative Dividend, a major new effectiveness study from System1 and Effie Worldwide, based on more than 1,200 Effie cases: https://studio.youtube.com/video/wH_tJ8xBfHA/ Guests: Andrew Tindall, Chief Advertising Officer, System1 Ann Marie Kerwin, Americas Editor, WARC Chapters: [00:00] Intro: The multiplier effect of creativity [01:52] Why future demand matters in brand building [02:18] How advertising drives brand growth [03:30] Why interesting, engaging creative beats narrow targeting [06:33] Creativity's impact on short-term sales vs long-term brand effects [07:02] Emotional, distinctive, entertaining ads drive immediate response [10:46] The real 'cost of dull' in advertising [15:03] The Creativity Stack: distinctiveness, emotion, showmanship, and consistency [18:30] Why distinctiveness is table stakes for profitable brand growth [20:17] Showmanship in advertising: stopping the scroll [22:30] Consistency in creativity: how campaigns wear in, not wear out [27:01] Build, nudge, connect: a modern framework to replace the traditional funnel [29:43] Distinctive brand assets [33:46] Creative quality and media planning [42:00] Why marketers should let effective ads run much longer [45:10] Getting back to 'the big idea' [47:30] Tightening the creative brief [49:30] Why modern marketing feels overwhelming For 40 years, WARC has been providing the marketing industry with rigorous, unbiased evidence and expert effectiveness guidance. The WARC Podcast publishes a new episode every Tuesday and Thursday. Subscribe to The WARC Podcast here: https://www.warc.com/en/warc-podcasts Sign up to daily WARC News for free: https://www.warc.com/en/latest Book a demo: https://www.warc.com/en/subscribe

איך אומרים לעובד את מה שהוא חייב לשמוע - בלי שהוא ירגיש שאת.ה נגדו?זו אולי אחת הדילמות הכי קשות בניהולכי מנהל טוב צריך גם לאתגר אנשים וגם שיהיה להם ברור שאכפת לו מהם.בפרק הזה אני מדברת עם אורית סטנטון, CPO ב Justt, על Radical Candor - איך נותנים פידבק ישיר, אמיתי ומדויק ומאתגר ועושים את זה עם Caring אמיתי ובלי לברוח ל"להיות נחמדים".נדבר על למה מנהלים נמנעים משיחות קשות, למה "אני פשוט דוגרי" הוא לא סגנון ניהולי, איך נותנים פידבק חיובי שבאמת מלמד משהו, ומה AI לעולם לא יוכל להחליף בשיחת פידבק.ובעיקר - איך הופכים פידבק לכלי שמאפשר לכולנו להיות הרבה יותר טובים ולהמשיך להשתפר***חומרים מהפרק - My Radical Candor Coach מחכה לכם בעמוד הפרק באתר - >> הפודקאסט Radical Candor של קים סקוט - https://open.spotify.com/show/3qOmzC2JoWv5wX9YZIqXGx>> האתר של Radical Candor - כלים, פודקאסט ומאמרים - radicalcandor.com>> המחקר שמוזכר בפרק: Multipliers של ליז וייזמן - https://thewisemangroup.com/books/multipliers/>> ליז וייזמן מתארחת אצל קים סקוט בפודקאסט - www.radicalcandor.com/podcast/liz-wiseman-8-20***⁠⁠⁠⁠לללינדאין של אורית סטנטוןאת הכלים שאתם שומעים כאן אני מביאה ישר לתוך חדרי ההנהלה.רוצים להביא אותם למנהלים שלכם? סדנאות, הרצאות ותוכניות פיתוח מנהלים:⁠⁠https://swiy.co/fmtlleadersipdev⁠⁠האתר:⁠⁠https://tonyaradfelik.com⁠⁠להצטרפות לקבוצת הוואטסאפ של From Manager To Leader:⁠⁠https://swiy.co/fmtlwhatsappgroup⁠⁠עזרו לפרק להגיע למנהל.ת הבא.ה:Subscribe, פעמון

Money can start the engine.Purpose is what keeps it running when business gets hard.In this episode of The Level Up Podcast, Paul Alex breaks down why companies built around a meaningful mission can create stronger endurance, better teams, and deeper customer loyalty than businesses driven by profit alone.Fast money can be motivating in the beginning.But when the market shifts, competition increases, or the business enters a difficult season, shallow motivation disappears quickly.That is where purpose becomes leverage.In this episode, you'll learn:• Why greed alone is a weak long-term source of motivation• How a clear mission helps founders endure difficult seasons• Why talented people are more likely to rally behind a meaningful vision• How genuine commitment to customer success can strengthen loyalty and referralsThe truth is simple:Revenue matters.Profit matters.But they become far more powerful when they are attached to something bigger.Define the problem your company exists to solve.Give your team a reason to care.Make your customers feel that their success genuinely matters.When the mission is strong enough, it gives everyone involved a reason to keep pushing when the numbers alone are not enough.Lead with purpose.Serve the market.Let the money follow the value you create.Your Network is your NETWORTH!Make sure to add me on all SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS:Instagram: https://jo.my/paulalex2024Facebook: https://jo.my/fbpaulalex2024YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGhDAD1JyGGzSQUPD9lc9HQLinkedIn: https://jo.my/inpaulalex2024Looking for a secondary source of income or want to become an entrepreneur? Check out one of my companies below to see if we can help you:www.CashSwipe.comFREE Copy of my book “Blue to Digital Gold - The New American Dream”www.officialPaulAlex.com

Episode 316 Pool Nation Podcast - What happens when 130 women from across the swimming pool industry come together to learn, connect, and grow? In this special episode of the Pool Nation Podcast, guest host Emily Lemenzo Washkovich joins Doreen, Leanne, Sarah, and Spider to recap the unforgettable 2026 Pool Nation Women's Summit. The group explores how the summit has evolved from an inspirational event into an intentionally designed leadership-development experience. They discuss overcoming imposter syndrome, building trust, communicating with impact, becoming a “multiplier” instead of a diminisher, and creating a safe environment where women feel empowered to use their voices. Emily also shares her deeply personal journey with bipolar disorder, burnout, boundaries, and rebuilding a healthier relationship with work. The conversation continues with practical ways pool professionals can use AI as a thought partner, highlights from the summit's mentor sessions and awards, and a look at how the new Pool Nation headquarters will create year-round opportunities for training, collaboration, and industry growth. Whether you own a pool service company, lead a team, work for a manufacturer or distributor, or are building your career in the pool and spa industry, this episode is packed with leadership lessons and real-world encouragement you can put into action. TIMESTAMPS 00:00 – Welcome to the Pool Nation Women's Summit recap 03:00 – Why women need connection and community in the pool industry 05:00 – Taking the summit from inspirational to aspirational 07:00 – Communicating with impact, building trust, and creating culture 08:30 – Multipliers, diminishers, and becoming a better leader 11:00 – Creating a safe space where women can find their voices 12:00 – The Drive assessment and understanding what energizes you 15:00 – Sponsor support and the summit's surprise-and-delight boxes 25:00 – Facilitation training and developing industry educators 35:00 – Audience engagement, boundaries, and stepping away from the business 43:00 – How the Pool Nation Women's Summit began and evolved 49:00 – Mentor conversations, workplace culture, and industry relationships 55:00 – Selecting Emily as the keynote speaker 59:00 – Emily's personal journey with work, mental health, and bipolar disorder 01:05:00 – Establishing boundaries and building a healthier relationship with work 01:15:00 – Recognizing courageous women and summit award recipients 01:25:00 – Using AI and ChatGPT as practical tools for pool professionals 01:34:00 – Heritage's commitment to the Women's Summit 01:35:00 – Year-round leadership development and the Pool Nation headquarters 01:37:00 – Final takeaways from the 2026 Women's Summit 01:41:00 – What's next for Pool Nation leadership programs 01:45:00 – Closing thoughts and how to connect with Pool Nation THANK YOU TO OUR SPONSORS This episode and the Pool Nation Women's Summit would not be possible without the organizations that invest in education, leadership development, and the future of the pool and spa industry. A huge thank-you to: SPPA BlueRay XL AquaStar Pool Products Natural Chemistry Raypak Heritage Pool Supply Hayward Pool Products Encore Brands Poolside Tech Pool Brain Nidec OnCore Filtration Special thanks to the partners, mentors, facilitators, volunteers, and team members who helped create such a meaningful experience for the women of the pool industry. Learn more and connect with Pool Nation at PoolNationPodcast.com, follow Pool Nation on Facebook and Instagram at @poolnationpodcast, and explore industry training and community resources at PoolManUniversity.com.

Aujourd'hui, Emmanuel de Villiers, chef d'entreprise, Sandrine Pégand, avocate, et Bruno Poncet, cheminot, débattent de l'actualité autour d'Alain Marschall et Olivier Truchot.

SUMMARY Most of us move through our days on autopilot, heads down, running our own agenda. The struggling dad at church, the neighbor whose marriage is barely holding on, the single mom wrestling groceries into her car — we walk right past. In Part 7 of the Multipliers series, Jeff reads Chapter 29 of the DadAwesome book and shares an archive clip with Danny Silk about the isolation trap, why control is the wrong tool for fathering, and what a home that resembles heaven actually feels like. Key Takeaways God doesn't watch from the bleachers. He jumps into the mess with us, and He often chooses to answer desperate prayers through ordinary people who are willing to notice and respond. You already have what someone needs. Our Italian angel offered three things any of us can give: time, trust, and troubleshooting. Not more resources — just a willingness to make available what's already in your hands. Interruptions are often God appointments. When someone opens up about their pain, that's not small talk. It's a door opening. Isolation is the enemy's trap for men. Alone, you become master and ruler of your own reality, and that's the fast track to deception. Multiplication requires brotherhood. You cannot control your children — so learn to control yourself. When intimidation or the threat of punishment is the most-used tool in your toolbox, you've built a culture in your home that doesn't resemble heaven. A small yes can get multiplied by 100. A bold prayer for $10,000 became more than $1 million raised for the fatherless across 30 events and over 1,000 men. Quotes "God jumps into our mess with us. He's not watching from the bleachers." (05:35) "Every day we walk past people having their own version of lost in Florence." (06:15) "You don't need more to make a big difference. You've already got what someone desperately needs. You just need to be willing to share it." (11:15) "I'm learning to see struggling people as potential God appointments instead of interruptions." (11:30) "As fathers, we teach our children more through our responses to others' needs than through our lectures about compassion." (12:40) "God takes our small yes and multiplies it into something far bigger than we imagined." (16:45) "The trap of the enemy for men in particular is isolation. Because now you become master and ruler of reality, and that is the fast track to deception." (19:20) — Danny Silk "When the most used tool in my toolbox as a parent is some form of intimidation or the threat of punishment, then I have created a culture in my home that does not resemble heaven." (20:45) — Danny Silk "My Father is much more concerned about my heart connection to Him than He is controlling me." (21:40) — Danny Silk "If you don't learn to control yourself, you are out of control." (22:20) — Danny Silk Action Steps: I. Reflection Name your phase. Childish, young adult, young married, young dad, wise dad — where are you actually living right now? Who have you walked past? Think back over the last month. Who could have used a pause in your care? Take inventory. Time, trust, troubleshooting. Skills, margin, network, resources, lived experience. What do you have that someone else might be desperate for? II. Multiplication Where are you isolated? You will not see a multiplication miracle alone. Name the guys in your foxhole, or admit you need to build that crew. Serve with someone. When a dad needs help with a yard project, bring another dad along. Friendship grows shoulder to shoulder. Find the side door. Pick a date and a challenge rather than "let's just sit and talk." A race, a ride, a project — action is often the side door to a man's heart. III. Activation Pray for a God appointment this week. Stay alert for the person who needs time, generosity, care, or counsel. Let your kids watch. Go out of your way to show compassion within sight of your children. Don't hustle on to the next thing. Run the small yes. Is there something God put on your heart that you keep postponing? What if now is the time? Run it as an experiment — what could it hurt?

Most lawyers are taught how to practice law, not how to lead people. Then one day, they are handed a team and expected to figure it out. In episode 633 of the Lawyerist Podcast, Stephanie Everett talks with Debbie Foster about leading people, the second cornerstone from their book, Be a Next Level Leader.  Debbie and Stephanie break people's leadership into four essential responsibilities: building trust, developing others, communicating clearly, and holding standards. They explain why trust grows through small, human interactions, why leaders often overload their most dependable employees, and how delegation can become a tool for development instead of a way to clear your own plate.  They also explore why teams cannot meet expectations that were never clearly communicated, how positive and constructive feedback help people grow, and why “no news is good news” is not a leadership strategy.  If you want to build a team that can take greater ownership, perform at a higher level, and succeed without relying on one overburdened A player, this episode offers a practical place to start.  Listen to our previous episodes on Law Firm Leadership, Delegation, and Building Stronger Teams.  #632: Law Firm Leadership: How to Lead Yourself Before Leading Your Team, with Debbie Foster & Stephanie Everett Apple | Spotify | LTN  #631: Tune In Before You Jump In: A Better Way to Delegate, with Shawn Vanderhoven Apple | Spotify | LTN  #616: From Solo to CEO: Letting Go of Legal Work to Grow Your Firm, with Ellen Williamson Apple | Spotify | LTN  #615: How to Stop Being the Bottleneck and Build Stronger Teams, with Debbie Foster and Stephanie Everett Apple | Spotify | LTN    Have thoughts about today's episode? Join the conversation on LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, and X!   If today's podcast resonates with you and you haven't read The Small Firm Roadmap Revisited yet, get the first chapter right now for free! Looking for help beyond the book? See if our coaching community is right for you.   Access more resources from Lawyerist at lawyerist.com.   Chapters / Timestamps  00:00 – Introduction  00:21 – Track Your Firm's Progress with the Small Firm Scorecard  03:17 – Leading People: The Second Leadership Cornerstone  04:25 – Trust, Development, Communication, and Standards  05:59 – Why Law Firms Do Not Teach People Management  07:42 – Building Trust Through Real Relationships  08:58 – Small Conversations That Strengthen Trust  10:54 – Delegating to Develop, Not Just to Offload Work  11:26 – The Overburdened A Player Problem  12:48 – Becoming a Multiplier for Your Team  13:31 – Match Delegation to Skill and Readiness  14:52 – Set Clear Expectations Before Asking for More  16:38 – Why Feedback Is a Leadership Skill  18:33 – “No News Is Good News” Does Not Work  19:08 – Learn How Your People Want to Be Recognized  19:53 – A Simple Framework for Better Feedback  21:14 – Holding Standards Without Being Harsh  22:15 – Closing Thoughts and What Comes Next 

We've been talking a lot about AI on the podcast recently. So this week, we're revisting a distinctly human episode from 2024 on the value of listening. As experts, managers or leaders, we often seek to help others by talking, talking, talking. But what if we didn't talk and just listened? In this episode, Ross D and Gemma are joined by Georgie Rudd, an executive coach, to discuss the trials and delights of listening. We explore: reasons that we don't listen well the consequences of not listening (and of listening!) how we can improve listening skills. Georgie recommended Nancy Klein as an expert on listening and techniques to improve. Time to think is a good place to start. You can find out more about Liz Wiseman's concepts of multipliers and diminishers in her book Multipliers. In 'What I Learned This Week', Gemma spoke about the widest fairy ring in the world. John Wright reports that it's around 800m across in A spotter's guide to countryside mysteries, but a quick internet search revealed this to be a questionable fact.  For more from Mindtools Kineo, visit our website mindtools-kineo.com. There, you'll find out how we can help your organization build AI skills, and how our Skills Practice scenarios help build human skills. Connect with our speakers    If you'd like to share your thoughts on this episode, connect with our speakers on LinkedIn: Gemma Towersey Ross Dickie  Georgie Rudd Georgie can also be contacted via her website: https://www.ruddcoaching.co.uk/

$1,500 in lifetime giving. A million-dollar gift in the will.Tony Martignetti calls it the planned giving multiplier — the gap between what a donor gives you while they're living and what they leave you when they're gone. It's often measured in the thousands. And the donors most likely to trigger it aren't your wealthiest. They're your most loyal.

The strongest businesses do more than collect revenue.They create real value people can feel.In this episode of The Level Up Podcast, Paul Alex breaks down why mission-driven founders can build deeper trust, attract stronger talent, and create businesses that outperform competitors focused only on extracting profit.Customers recognize when a company genuinely cares about their results.Teams recognize it too.When the mission goes beyond money, people have a stronger reason to stay, perform, refer others, and believe in what the company is building.In this episode, you'll learn:• Why short-term, profit-first thinking can destroy trust and retention• How a clear mission attracts stronger employees and leaders• Why obsessing over customer results creates more referrals and loyalty• How integrity and value delivery can strengthen your pricing powerThe truth is simple:Revenue follows value.Serve the customer.Protect the mission.Build a culture that cares about the transformation you create.When your team is united around making a real impact, stronger retention, better referrals, and greater revenue become natural outcomes.Prioritize the impact.Let the income multiply.Your Network is your NETWORTH!Make sure to add me on all SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS:Instagram: https://jo.my/paulalex2024Facebook: https://jo.my/fbpaulalex2024YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGhDAD1JyGGzSQUPD9lc9HQLinkedIn: https://jo.my/inpaulalex2024Looking for a secondary source of income or want to become an entrepreneur? Check out one of my companies below to see if we can help you:www.CashSwipe.comFREE Copy of my book “Blue to Digital Gold - The New American Dream”www.officialPaulAlex.com

Double-unicorn founder (WP Engine and A Smart Bear), Jason Cohen, joined me on Ditching Hourly to talk about the ideas behind his new book, Hidden Multipliers.We talked about using AI as a facilitator rather than an answer machine, choosing ideal customers, differentiating a consulting business, how AI is changing SaaS and software work, and why writing can help you think in public.Chapters00:00 - Introduction01:56 - AI Skills as Facilitators04:16 - Choosing Your Best Customers09:42 - Building Strategy Around Yourself13:40 - Defining a Market22:29 - Problems, Alternatives, and Categories27:00 - Differentiating Consulting Services33:58 - The Fear of Closing Doors38:02 - Who Hidden Multipliers Is For41:14 - AI and the Future of SaaS49:33 - Why Expertise Still Matters53:24 - Distribution and Fast Followers59:13 - Worldview as Differentiation61:03 - Writing to Think68:28 - Where to Find JasonJason's LinksThe Book » https://shop.hiddenmultipliers.com/The Skills » https://skills.asmartbear.com/Jason's Blog » https://longform.asmartbear.com/Jason's Podcast » https://smartbearlive.transistor.fm/Jason's LinkedIn » https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasoncohen/ ----Do you know you need to niche down, but keep hesitating because you're afraid of picking the wrong niche, cutting off good opportunities, or boxing yourself in?You DON'T need more convincing that vague positioning is a problem.You DO need a way to make positioning feel less risky so you can finally choose a direction, test it in the market, and adjust without blowing up your business.On Tuesday, September 8th, 2026, at noon Eastern Time, I'm running a live workshop called Positioning For Soloists Having A Hard Time Niching Down.That's what we'll tackle in this workshop.It's the second session of my Fall 2026 Soloist Growth Workshop series for expertise-based business owners just like you.Live attendance is limited to 20, so don't wait.Learn more at: https://jonathanstark.com/sgsEnroll in Positioning For Soloists now »Hope to see you live in Zoom on Tuesday.

SUMMARY: Most of us parent from what we already know and love. We steer our kids toward the sports we played and the interests we developed, and then we wait for them to get excited about our world. In Part 6 of the Multipliers series, Jeff reads Chapter 23 of the DadAwesome book and shares an archive clip with Alex Burton about a prayer, a purple carabiner, and a campfire question that changed everything. TAKEAWAYS Delight in what they delight in. Stop waiting for your kids to get excited about your world and step into theirs instead. Our Heavenly Father does not just tolerate what we care about. He delights in it. He came down instead of making us climb up. Ask the men who know you best: what do you see in my life that I am not seeing, and what am I missing? Then do not get defensive. Write down what they say. Connection is worth the sacrifice. The cost is not always money. Sometimes it is time, and sometimes it is setting aside your preferences for theirs. Pause and pray before you show up. Alex asked God what to bring before he ever left his house, and a child he had never met walked away knowing she was known. Guest Alex Burton is an outdoors enthusiast, a climber, and a father of three. He and his wife, Mel, have been married more than 26 years. Alex serves on the staff team at Wild at Heart. His full conversation with Jeff is Episode 297. QUOTES "I experienced something I can only describe as kind fathering from a complete stranger." (04:30) "This wasn't just a piece of climbing equipment anymore. It was proof that someone saw her. Someone cared about what brought her joy. God knew her favorite color, and He used Alex to show her." (04:50) "Alex, right now, if I could choose who'd be around this campfire with, I would choose my son. Can you say the same?" (06:30) "You don't need to become an expert in what your kids love. You just need to show up and jump in. When you step into their world, you're reflecting how God treats us. He came down instead of making us climb up." (10:20) "It wasn't even so much, it could have been anything, but it was purple." (13:20) Alex Burton ACTION STEPS I. Reflection Name what each child delights in. Write down each kid's name, and next to it, what they are into right now. Legos, surfing, bike rides, theater, dance, soccer. If you are not sure, that is your invitation to get curious. Find where you are resisting. Is there a passion of theirs that annoys you, crowds your calendar, or that you secretly hope they outgrow? Name it, then go a step deeper and ask why your heart is positioned that way. Ask if your kids know they are delighted in. Do they know that your favorite role in life, outside of being married to their mom, is being their dad? Try asking them directly: do you have any idea how much I love you? Then watch their eyes. II. Multiplication Ask the campfire question. Take it to two or three friends: what do you see in my life that I am not seeing, and what am I missing? Do not defend yourself. Just write it down. Be an Alex for another dad. Alex took a half day off work for a family he had never met. Could you take time off, help with a project, or create a moment for another dad and his kids? Send a joy bomb. An unexpected gift at an unexpected time, to your wife, your kids, or a dad who is grinding. No occasion required. III. Activation Pray before you show up. Before the recital, the game, or youth group pickup, pause in the car and ask God if there is something He wants you to bring or say. The pause is huge. Jump into their world this week. Research what they love. Show up with a surprising level of joyful curiosity and joyful participation. Put something in their hand. Something small from the store or ordered online, given for no reason, with the words: I see you, I love you, I delight in you. Pray Zephaniah 3:17 over each child by name, out loud, this week. Insert their name into the verse and let it reshape how you pray for them. LINKS Spartan Team DadAwesome, Dallas, Texas, October 17 https://givebutter.com/DallasSpartan Leave a VOICEMAIL: https://www.speakpipe.com/DadAwesome Join Team Awesomeness (monthly support team) at any level from $7/month to $1000/month... We have 41 families committed to fueling the ministry DadAwesome as we head toward celebrating 9 years of AWESOMENESS this coming winter: https://www.dadawesome.org/give Join the DadAwesome Prayer Team: Text "pray" to (651) 370-8618 Apply to join the next DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text the word "Dad" to (651) 370-8618 7-Day Video Series: dadawesome.org/book Free Chapter + Intro Video Series: dadawesome.org/book Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text "Dad" to (651) 370-8618 297 | Cultivating a Prayer Life, Sharing Joy Bombs, and Delighting in What Your Kids Delight In (Alex Burton) DadAwesome LABS from Chapter 23: The Purple Carabiner Principle Zephaniah 3:17 Wild at Heart Ministry

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Todd Wilson, co-founder of Exponential and a leader at Multipliers, where he helps churches and ministry leaders pursue multiplication and greater Kingdom impact. Todd has spent decades studying church planting, disciple-making, and movements, and his latest book, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward, explores the evolution of the American church growth movement and what it may mean for the future. Are churches working harder while reaching fewer people? Have our systems become better at producing activity than disciples? Todd challenges leaders to examine the operating system beneath modern church ministry and consider what needs to change if we want to see true reproduction and multiplication. We have a disciple-making problem. // For years, Todd has championed the goal of seeing more churches reproduce. Research once showed that fewer than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing, and while that number has improved, multiplication remains rare. But Todd believes church planting is ultimately an outcome of a deeper issue: most churches do not have a functional culture of disciple-making. If disciples aren’t reproducing disciples, churches will struggle to reproduce churches. Reproduction has to become generational. // Multiplication begins when reproduction continues beyond the first generation. One disciple makes another disciple, who then makes another, and the process keeps going. The same is true with churches. A church plants a church, which plants another church, which plants another. Once reproduction moves across multiple generations, addition becomes multiplication and the potential for movement begins to emerge. The church growth system has slowly changed. // Todd’s research traces roughly 75 years of church growth history, beginning with missionary Donald McGavran. McGavran originally studied why some churches on the mission field grew while others did not and developed principles aimed at helping missionaries reach more people. Over time, those ideas moved into the American church and blended with seeker-sensitive ministry, the megachurch movement, purpose-driven strategies, multisite, church planting networks, and other innovations. Much good came from these eras, but Todd believes the system gradually shifted toward institutional and programmatic growth. Good intentions can still create the wrong outcomes. // Todd is careful not to blame previous generations of church leaders. Many of the people who shaped modern church ministry were deeply evangelistic and sincerely wanted to reach people. Yet over time, the dominant definition of success increasingly became bigger attendance, larger programs, and expanding organizations. The unintended result is a consumer-driven model that can attract people effectively but struggles to produce disciples who reproduce. The angst leaders feel is real. // Todd hears a growing frustration among pastors: churches are spending more money, employing more staff, and working harder while seeing less fruit. Even churches that appear successful can sense something isn’t right beneath the surface. Todd believes much of that angst comes from trying to produce multiplication through an operating system designed primarily for addition. Naming the problem is an important first step toward changing it. Leaders must model what they want reproduced. // Todd believes transformation has to begin with senior leaders. If disciple-making is going to become the church’s growth engine, lead pastors and elders must personally participate in a simple, reproducible disciple-making process. Rather than merely preaching about discipleship, pastors should be able to name the people they are actively discipling and allow those relationships to shape the way they lead and teach. Keep the process simple and reproducible. // Whatever model a church chooses, Todd believes it must be simple enough for anyone to reproduce. The goal isn’t another sophisticated program but a way of following Jesus that can move naturally from person to person. The same approach should work for a lead pastor, a volunteer, or even a teenager. Simplicity increases the possibility of multiplication. Give the next generation permission to experiment. // Todd isn’t calling churches to abandon everything they’ve inherited. Instead, he encourages leaders to learn from the past, retain what is fruitful, and recognize that the current operating system may be losing effectiveness. Churches should create space for younger leaders to experiment, learn, and discover more reproducible approaches to disciple-making without being forced to preserve every assumption of previous generations. To learn more about Todd Wilson, visit multipliers.org. You can also download a free PDF or audio version of How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward at church-growth.org or pick up a paper copy on Amazon.com. In addition, check out Todd Wilson’s conversation with Carey Nieuwhof, and the interview A Simple & Scalable Way to Reproduce Christians with David Putnam. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Portable Church Your church is doing really well right now, and your leadership team is looking for solutions to keep momentum going! It could be time to start a new location. Maybe you have hesitated in the past few years, but you know it's time to step out in faith again and launch that next location. Portable Church has assembled a bundle of resources to help you leverage your growing momentum into a new location by sending a part of your congregation back to their neighborhood on Mission. This bundle of resources will give you a step-by-step plan to launch that new or next location, and a 5 minute readiness tool that will help you know your church is ready to do it! Click here to watch the free webinar “Launch a New Location in 150 Days or Less” and grab the bundle of resources for your church! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have tuned in today for this reason, friends, lean in. um I want you to be a part of the conversation that we’re having today. The leader that we’ve got on the phone, on the I don’t know why say the phone because we have not been on phones for podcasts in, you know, 10 years, but on the line is really pressing on an issue that I know that a large portion, you know, almost 90 percent of the churches in the country need to be doing what we’re talking about today. And they’re not. And I really want you to lean in and learn from Todd Wilson. Rich Birch — If you do not know Todd Wilson, he has been the founding and co-founding member of a number of faith-based organizations, including Exponential and Multipliers. He has designed a number, and been a part of the launch of a multiple of national church planting networks. He’s currently a team member, or team leader at Multipliers and serves leaders and ministries who are pursuing multiplication, helping them develop vision and strategy ultimately for a 100 X impact. You know that I love that. Rich Birch — Recently, he wrote a book that caught my attention that I want to dive in on and kind of um unpack some of the core lessons for us today. It’s called, How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. And it’s really looking at the whole conversation, American church growth movement. Todd, welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.Todd Wilson — Rich, it’s great to be here with you. I’m really looking forward to this conversation.Rich Birch — Yeah, me too. So why don’t we start with kind of giving us a picture of Multipliers and the work that you’re focused on now, kind of set the context for us.Todd Wilson — Sure. It’s probably good to have the context, you know, at at my core, my own personal calling. I am an entrepreneurial engineer at my core. I love to envision, envisage opportunities, seek strategies and opportunities of the future. And so where I like to do it anywhere, there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact. And that’s what gets me in trouble often is the, wherever there’s potential for a hundred X kingdom impact.Todd Wilson — When I came out of the marketplace over 25 years ago into full-time ministry, the most natural hundred X place for me, in addition to being in the local church was, was church planting. I was just drawn to church planting. I got to spend almost 20 years, ah you know, leading Exponential and co-founding there.Todd Wilson — And in recent years, really trying to get even more focused really on the 100x impact. I want to spend my next decade as I’m getting older here, you know, what’s it look like for every hour, for every dollar, for every bit of energy, to see 100x return.Todd Wilson — And so the idea of Multipliers, and it’s a small team of us that, you know, we have a definite bias within the kingdom space to the disciple-making as the mission and engine of the church. And what’s it look like to get back to Jesus style disciple making. But then church planting and multiplication, what does it look like to be doing things that that are even capable of reproduction that can lead to multiplication and ultimately movement. So our goal is to just help champion at the personal level through personal calling, at the church level through disciple making and cultures of disciple making that can ultimately produce movements.Todd Wilson — And so we are a champion and advocate for that.Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. You and I are are similarly wired. And over the years, you know I’ve heard people talk about, you know, and they always they’ll do like a series at a church on spiritual gifts. And I’ve often wondered because of the kinds of things I’ve been involved in, if, you know, if I have some sort of apostolic gift, just because of the stuff I found myself doing and, you know, launching campuses and all that.Rich Birch — And it’s interesting that gift over the years I’ve heard, which is similar to the kind of work you’ve been doing over the years is the only gift that I’ve ever noticed that preachers, they seem to talk down about it. And they’re like, stop starting things like, you know, they’re like, they always, you know, are like on the negative side of, you know, being the guy who wants to be entrepreneurial and see new things.Rich Birch — And that’s a part of what I admire about you and the good work you’ve done. When you were at Exponential over those, you know, with you that you co-founded, you know, that almost 20 years, you know, they had this, they saw some amazing things happen there under your leadership, where this idea of moving church reproduction from under 5%, really trying to push us towards 16%.Rich Birch — So for people that are unaware of this, I think this is good context to kind of take a step back and talk about why that number, why are we actually, why are you giving decades of your life towards this idea of trying to move towards 16%? What do we mean by that when you you know talk about that? Because I think that’s a good foundational idea for today’s conversation.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think it’s important it to understand, again, context for me. I didn’t grow up a Christian. I never had a dream to be in full-time vocational ministry. I’ve never wanted to be a lead pastor of anything. You know, ministry was the farthest thing from my mind growing up. When you’re asking kids, what do you want do when you grow up? Todd Wilson — So when God brought me into full-time vocational ministry, and I’m going to say kicking and screaming, I wanted to go start a company. I wanted to go make money. I wanted to go change the world. And so coming into full-time vocational ministry, why in the world would I want to see anything except movements happening? Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — We read about movements in the New Testament. Why do I want to be personally satisfied if God’s calling me into a new life of ministry with anything less than seeing movements?Todd Wilson — And so that was my context of stepping in and and leading at Exponential and what was driving us. And your question from 5% to 16%. Well, Houston, we have a problem.Todd Wilson — If movements are multiplication, and multiplication is generational reproduction, and we, at the time we were starting Exponential, there were less than 5% of U.S. churches were reproducing. You just got to let that sink in.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — 95% of churches just 25 years ago, 95% of churches in the U.S. are not reproducing. It’s physically impossible, both mathematically and biblically, to see multiplication and ultimately movements if less than 5% of churches are reproducing.Todd Wilson — So the answer to where’s the 5 to 16, for me personally, God’s called me into a new life and a new ministry. I don’t want to be satisfied with just status quo, but the state of the U.S. church is such that we physically can’t see 100x impact in the operating system of how things are working. Todd Wilson — So the 5 to 16 was very simple. Let’s measure where we’re at. And so the 16% sociologists say that if you can get 16% of an audience acting a certain way, behaving a certain way, it will become normative for everyone else. I like to say, if you’re in a room and you start quacking like a duck to talk, if you can get 16% of the people in the audience quacking like a duck, then everybody’s going to communicate by quacking like a duck.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And so it just became a conviction. Let’s move the needle from less than 5% to 16%. And then the language we would use is, at 16%, healthy church reproduction would become such a normative thing that we would see multiplication happening.Todd Wilson — Now, the little bit of an elephant in the room before we move on, church planting is just the outcome. So that 5% number, it’s an outcome of the system and what’s happening.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The more ornery number is that the national studies that we did on what percentage of U.S. churches have a disciple-making culture. That’s also less than 5%.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So 95% of churches don’t have a functional mission of disciple-making, and that’s their normative growth engine through disciple-making. So in reality, we have a disciple-making problem, not a church-planting problem. And so those two became very tied together, as as will become evident as we have this interview.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. and And just can you define generational reproduction for folks that are listening in? When you when you when you say that, like, hey, we’re trying to move churches towards generational reproduction, kind of just unpack that a little bit more.Todd Wilson — Yeah, let’s let’s start at the personal level of disciple-making. If one person makes a disciple of another person, you’ve got one generation. If that person goes on to make another disciple two generations, that person makes a disciple three generations. We see that biblically. We see that in the leadership pipeline with Paul, that you know we need to see disciples who make disciples who make disciples.Todd Wilson — Once you get to the third or fourth generation of something reproducing itself, if you drew that on paper, one becomes two, two becomes four, four becomes eight, eight becomes 16. That is an exponential or a multiplication curve. So all you have to do to go from addition to multiplication is have healthy reproduction broad and wide multiple generations into the future.Todd Wilson — Now we just take that to the church level, a church that plants a church that plants a church that plants a church broad and wide.Todd Wilson — Now you’ve gone from one church to 16 churches. And now look at the collective attendance of those 16 churches. That’s what you call healthy growth. That’s what you call multiplication when you keep reproducing it over and over.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. And there’s actually been progress against this. This is one of the things that I’ve loved as a person just sitting on the outside looking in as you and the team, you know, Dave and the broader Exponential community have really been hammering away at this. You know, we’re not at 16% yet, but we’re seeing progress, which is which is amazing.Todd Wilson — Right. It’s in the studies that we did, and it’s been repeated a couple of times, the needle has moved to at least 7%. That may not sound like a lot, but if you go take the number of churches we’re talking about…Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — …and that needle moving from less than 5% to 7%. And we’re not taking credit for all that at Exponential. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — We’re getting to ride a wave that really started around 2000. Prior to 2000, denominations planted churches, not really churches or networks. We saw the birth of networks around 2000 in the U.S. It’s hard for people to realize, but like in the church planting world, groups like City to City and GlocalNet and Acts 29 and ARC and Church Multiplication Network and Stadia and New Thing Network, none of them existed.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — Literally in a five-year time period, we saw the birth of all these church planting networks, and that happened to coincide with that we saw that need to start Exponential to serve those networks.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So We we were a little bit the right group at the right place, advocating for the right thing.Todd Wilson — And I do think that generally the the wonderful thing is that as that needle is starting to move and the visibility is getting more and more, the next generation wants it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah, I would agree.Todd Wilson — They want the scorecard of that. So I feel very optimistic that we’re still a ways away from 16%, but the needle is moving in the right direction.Rich Birch — Yeah, I would echo that too. I think there is, um you know, one of the couple years ago, I had one of those ages in my life flip over with zero on the end that you kind of notice and you reflect back on life a little bit. And I would say one of the things I’ve noticed over, you know, almost 30 years of ministry is this issue is has become more normative. Like it’s it’s a part of the conversation. It’s not that everyone’s doing it, but it’s in the dialogue, which I think is is wonderful.Rich Birch — Well, I, so you know, there’s, you interact with a lot of church leaders across the country. You interact with a lot of people, you have a pulse on a lot of, you know, what’s going on. And there’s a growing sense, you have flagged that there’s a growing sense among leaders that there’s just something wrong. It’s like, you know, there’s like a stink in the bottom of our, our, garbage that’s like, oh it’s a little bit stinky. It’s not like overwhelming, but we can’t put our finger on exactly what that is. Rich Birch — They can’t necessarily name it, but we feel it. We kind of see that there’s maybe something in the way we’re doing what we’re doing that isn’t working. What are you hearing as you sit across the table from church leaders in across the country, you know, around all of these things that we’re talking about?Todd Wilson — Let me describe it a couple of different ways. I think the the word I would put on it is an angst. I think if you look at the definition of an angst, there’s a there’s a growing and an underlying angst. um I’m going to say, if I’m descriptive of the angst, that might not be the way people would exactly say it but it’s how I translate what I’m hearing.Todd Wilson — We are working a lot harder to reach less people and we don’t like the cultural Christian product we’re getting. We’re working a lot harder. We’re spending more money to reach fewer people. And we’re just having this angst that the product we’re producing is a little bit too much consumer cultural Christian as we’re working harder and spending more money. And that leaves somebody full time, know, if I mean, if you’re a full time vocational pastor, there’s an angst that sits in the middle of that dynamic going on. Todd Wilson — My mentor and friend, Robert Lewis, who led Fellowship Bible Church in Little Rock for years, Robert’s handed off the leadership back in 2005. Robert describes it this way. He did the foreword on my recent book, and when he read and reviewed the book, he said, Todd, oh my goodness, this is first and foremost a walk down history lane. It’s like going back and looking at history. Todd Wilson — But he said, here’s the thing. I had this angst in 2005. Everything was up and to the right. We were growing. We were doing new campuses. We had started a church planting. Like we’re doing all of the stuff. People are turning to us. They’re looking at what we’re doing. We had started a leadership conference. And I just had this angst that something wasn’t right.Todd Wilson — And he said, I couldn’t name it. He said, I needed a therapist. But where does a megachurch pastor who’s having nothing but success with up and to the right, who’s feeling angst about the system, where do you go for therapy in that? He’s like, I didn’t know whether to feel like I was being ungrateful or what.Todd Wilson — And his words were, as you’ve traced the 75 years of the church growth movement and its evolution into a consumer-driven operating system, you have named my angst. I wish I would have had this book in 2005 to name my angst because half the battle is getting our hands around understanding why we’re feeling the way we do.Rich Birch — Yeah, I was talking to denominational leader within the last year to kind of add a bit more flavor even to that angst, who was saying, and this is a fantastic denomination, you know, Jesus loving, you know, fantastic group of people um and have, you know, very similar what you’re saying, like lots of good things going on.Rich Birch — And this was one of those like, After dinner conversations, you know, long ah a long ways away from a bunch of leaders, we were just chatting on the sideline. And he said, you know, the interesting thing, when you look at our tribe, his movement, he rattled off all their stats. We have a certain number of churches. We have a certain number of pastors. We have a certain number of, you know, baptisms every year. It rattles all that off.Rich Birch — And he said, you know, if you were to look at where we were 20 years ago, the number of churches is the same, the number of, and rattled off all these stats that are the same. Like we’re baptizing the same number of people, the attendance is the same, the the like all these things. He said, the only thing that’s gone up in the last 20 years is we’ve doubled our staff head count. There’s twice as many staff today as there was. And when I read, heard about your book and you talk about this angst, I was like, ooh, that’s exactly what he was describing. He’s like, wait a second. what’s happening here. And him as a denominational leader, he had the same read, hey, there’s something wrong with the way we set this thing up. Rich Birch — So your book, let’s actually dive into a little bit. It starts really at 70 year arc from Donald McGavron from 1955, all the way to today. And so for a leader who’s never really stepped back and thought about the history of like, what, how did we get here? It’s the name of your book. Why does knowing what got us to where we are today, this kind of consumer operating system that you describe, why does, how does understanding that help us as we think about the future?Todd Wilson — It’s a really good question. And I’m not sure, honestly, that I when I, when I set out to write this book, that, that that was even driving me to begin with, but very quickly that became the, I realized that’s why I need to write this book.Todd Wilson — So let, let me explain. And I need to give you a little bit of background to explain, because it’s an important question.Rich Birch — Yep, yep, for sure.Todd Wilson — So when I think about the moment that, that I realized we had a problem. Like that that, okay, we’re on this trajectory, things are moving the right direction to the 16%, and I’m back in the leadership of Exponential now. And I’m realizing, oh my goodness, we really do have a problem. And here’s here was what that looked like. Todd Wilson — I believed we had started learning communities and we had very vibrant learning communities And our learning communities got started because we felt like we need to shift the paradigm of people’s measure of success in the scorecard of church. It was very much about we need to shift paradigm. Alan Hirsch was involved with this on how do we shift from just growing large things to growing decentralized things that saturate. And it was very much about scorecard.Todd Wilson — And if you think about it, we’re wanting to move the needle from 5% to 16%. That’s a scorecard thing. So our initiating event was scorecard. But as we got into these learning communities, which in my opinion were the best things we were doing at Exponential. I mean, they were six to eight month learning journeys and we would rock people’s paradigm.Todd Wilson — We really would. People would go through it and be like, Oh my goodness, I got to have a different view of success in the church.Rich Birch — Right. yeahTodd Wilson — And guess what? They’d go home and Sunday’s coming. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — There’s, services to run, there’s people to pastor, there’s things to do. And the aha moment for me came, Rich, when I realized the the whole definition of insanity, that if you just keep doing the same thing over and over and hope for a different outcome, but that’s insanity. And here I am trying to lead a national organization to see a change in scorecard to move the needle to 16%.Todd Wilson — And I remember the day that I realized we’re not going to get there with the operating system we have in place in church right now. This operating system is not capable of getting us to the 16% number.Todd Wilson — That was a personal crisis. I’m leading an organization that’s up and to the right that the needle is moving. But as a futurist, I’m realizing we’re not going to get where we need to be with the operating system in the church. So the the operating system part was what drove me to start writing this book. I’ll let you ask a question there, and then we’ll circle back to the how does it relate to understanding how we got here, though.Rich Birch — Yeah, so ah just to underline what you’re saying there, um you know in in other conversations, I’ve heard leaders say, you know it’s like, um you know what you know what you reach people with is what you end up keeping them with. And so if what I hear you saying, just putting, I think, other language around it, but correct me, is kind of a consumer-oriented or a consumer cultural operating system that we’ve we’ve used as a church… Todd Wilson — Right.Rich Birch — …you know, obviously by definition, if you ah use a um consumption-based model, that doesn’t, leave you it’s very difficult to turn around and say, okay, now become a multiplier. You know, we got you here as a consumer. Okay, now how do we make you a multiplier? Is that the core pain?Todd Wilson — It is. And Rich, you’re painting the picture of why looking back to understand how we got here is important. If it’s true, that are ah If it’s true, and I want to suggest people ought to go look at it for themselves, that the underlying operating system that has evolved over the last 75 years, it’s not where it started with Donald McGavern in 1955. And there was never bad intentions by any of the good people through the 70 years.Rich Birch — Yeah, right.Todd Wilson — We have evolved from what was originally one thing. into a consumer model that is way more focused on success is growing big, success is making converts, not necessarily disciples. And we we can diagnose that if there’s a problem today, and I suggest there is a problem today, then how we got here and understanding how over 70 years, what was intended to be one thing, gradually (like the frog getting boiled in cold water) turned into something else.Todd Wilson — We’ve got to go through the the, if we really want to change the operating system, and I’ve seen how hard it is, guys can have the paradigm shift. We need to change. Then they go back home into the operating system that they’re operating in. And it is really, really hard to just throw off one operating system and embrace another oneTodd Wilson — And I wouldn’t even encourage people to do that. Don’t go home and just change your operating system overnight. But if you do want to make thoughtful, progressive change, the best way to do it is to start by going back and learn the lesson of how did we get where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — How did things get off track to where to where we are?Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — And that’s what ended you know, I started out the book really to go after understanding the operating system itself. And very quickly came to the conclusion, oh, we I’m not sure how we’re going to move to a new operating system if people don’t go through the hard work of looking back and understanding how well-intentioned people over time have delivered for us what we have today in a flawed system.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. You know, I know, again, from my own personal experience, not to bring this back to me, but to my own personal experience, again, it’s been interesting to see similar patterns. You know, every couple years, there’s like some new idea that comes up in the church. And oftentimes I’m like, yeah, this is just like of rehash of a thing I saw 10 years ago or 15 years ago or 20 years ago.Rich Birch — It’s like, oh, this is is brand new. It’s like, ah, it’s echoes of things we’ve seen in the past. So why don’t we just kind of give people a flyover or a walkover of the kind of eras that you kind of define as you went through the book, just to give people a high level. Rich Birch — Ultimately friends, you know, I’m encouraging you to to do two things out of today. One is to pick up, I think this could be a great book for you and your team to go through. You and your leadership team, buy copies of this, read it. I think it could be an interesting book for you or, and go and listen to Todd’s interview with Carey as well. Carey just takes longer in his podcast and has more time. So there’s going to be, there’s lots packed into that as well. Rich Birch — But why don’t you kind of give us a flyover of the eras? And then maybe when you think about each one of those, something that was like, really positive that came from that area something like hey there’s something good there or maybe there’s something there that we’ve got to be cautious about as we think about the future.Todd Wilson — Yeah. And just to be clear, Rich, you know this, ah I’m a local church guy. My calling is a local church. I’m still on staff at a local church. I love the local church. So this part of the, difficulty for me in spending two years and over a hundred hours of interviews and putting this timeline of history together is I love the church.Todd Wilson — And I I, don’t know that I’d be sitting here talking to you if it weren’t for several of these eras I’m getting ready to name to you. So you’ve got really, I think a common thread through across these areas as we jump into them is typically apostolic, evangelistically driven leaders who really want to reach people. Hell is real. Lost people are going there. We got to reach them. And I think that’s the driving factor across all these eras is well-intentioned people…Todd Wilson — And if I can start with the end point, I think we’ve sort of co-opted the more holistic disciple-making growth engine that’s capable of generational disciple-making with strategies for institutional programmatic growth that are not capable of reproduction. They’re very good at growing large things and reaching lots of people, but not necessarily making, you know, through relational disciple making, disciples who make disciples who plant churches that plant churches.Todd Wilson — So here’s how I would do the flyover. When I got started writing this history, I thought I was doing one chapter of this history in another book. Rich Birch — I love it.Todd Wilson — And one chapter turned into two chapters and three chapters. And eventually my editor said, Todd, you just need to do a full book.Rich Birch — Well, that’s a book.Todd Wilson — And it ends up turning into the longest book I’ve written because of the 75 year history. And ah Rich, seriously, don’t, people don’t need to feel bad if they don’t know all the history. I, I’m like a where’s Waldo through a lot of this history. I’ve had a seat at the table for a lot of the stuff through these eras.Todd Wilson — Until writing this book, I did not know how all the dots connected across these eras. And then it became there were so many, oh, oh, oh. So here’s here’s the shot I’ll give to you. Ididn’t really I knew I had heard of Donald McGavern. I knew he was considered the father of the modern church growth movement. I’ve never, prior to writing this book, read about him, gone off and studied him. Gary McIntosh is his by is Donald McGavern’s biographer. So I spent a lot of time with Gary. He pointed me in the right directions.Todd Wilson — And here’s what I learned. Donald McGavern, born in the late 1800s, international missionary in India. um His father and mother were missionaries in India. He came from the mission field and his context was the international mission field. Todd Wilson — Now, get this as the starting point in 1955. He’s an international missionary. He has planted 15 churches himself in his career, none of which ever grew to more than 100 people. So you got to let that sink in. The father of the modern church growth movement planted 15 churches, none of which grew to more than 100. And yet he’s the father of what we consider now the modern church growth movement.Rich Birch — Right. Interesting.Todd Wilson — So the kind the context was, he became fascinated after reading a research report on why some churches in provinces in India were growing and others weren’t. Sometimes churches in the same village that were growing and just down the street, others weren’t.Todd Wilson — So he kind of took a scientific approach, the study of church growth. Like let’s study this like it’s a science, like what’s causing some churches to grow. And he he had very clear conclusions out of that, but you know, a handful of conclusions of what’s causing that.Todd Wilson — And so ultimately, when he came off the mission field by 1960, 61, he started the Church Growth Institute, not for U.S. pastors, but for international missionaries who were on furlough to come home and learn about church growth principles that they could take back to the international mission field. He had no interest in U.S. pastors. Todd Wilson — So for multiple years in the 60s, he was doing that. And when Fuller wanted to start their International School of World Missions, one of their best faculty member ratings was Donald McGavern. So they invited him to come become the founding dean of the the Fuller School of World Missions.Todd Wilson — But he only agreed to do it if he could bring the Church Growth Institute with him. So by 1970, you’ve got that up and running. He’s built his team. He invited a guy called C. Peter Wagner off the mission field to come be on his faculty staff. And in 1970, 71, Peter Wagner convinced Donald McGavern that they ought to run one class for U.S. pastors on church growth.Todd Wilson — And the rest is history. That one class, it just turned into, Imean, people were very interested in it. Denominations became interested. And literally within a couple of years, you’ve got this up and to the right people latching on to church growth science.Todd Wilson — And that starts the process, you know. Even from the beginning, you start to see a little bit of co-opting away from McGavern’s things. Not fast, but a little bit. Todd Wilson — So right on the heels of that, in the 70s then, you’ve got this young kid, ah Bill Hybels… Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — …who’s running you know going to go into business and he’s running a street ministry with youth. He’s being mentored by Robert Shuler.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — And Shuler’s got the possibility thinking, think outside the box, very apostolic. Turns out Shuler not only mentors Hybels, but there’s some mentoring of Rick Warren. And so you’ve got the birth of the seeker-sensitive era then.Todd Wilson — You know, if the first era was the McGavern-Roots era, now we’ve got the seeker-sensitive era. And, you know, that can be a positive or a negative stigma. For me, in 1976, I’m in middle school going into high school, not a Christian, live down the street from this movie theater called the Willow Creek Movie Theater. Rich Birch — Right. Right.Todd Wilson — And my mom drags us kicking and screaming into the Willow Creek Movie Theater. We were the avatar family for the Seeker Sensitive family movement.Rich Birch — Right. Movement.Todd Wilson — From Seeker Sensitive, you get out of that the what Peter Drucker and Bob Buford would call the large church phenomena and the birth of Leadership Network then with the large church phenomena, which became the megachurch phenomena.Todd Wilson — You’ve got Rick Warren and his masterful work with the purpose-driven church. Rick’s able to put handles on this church growth part, but Rick was a disciple of Donald McGavern, so he’s got the McGavern roots. Todd Wilson — You’ve got Hybels with the Shuler roots. And in that 80 into the 90s with the birth of the Global Leadership Summit and the other, you’ve you’ve got this very influential large church phenomena, purpose-driven, being shaped by, you know, in large part, the combination of Leadership Network, Hybels, Rick Warren… And that brings us up to you know about 2000. Todd Wilson — And just as a flyover, I would then call the era of the externally focused church. You’ve got the rapid fire birth of church planting networks. You’ve got multi-site. People don’t realize prior to 2000, there’s less than 50 multi-site churches.Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — Leadership Network engages it in 2000. And from 2000 to 2010 you see an up, I mean, radically up and to the right.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — The externally focused church, same thing. Rick Russo has book right in that time period. The missional guys, right in that time period. So the common theme between these church planning networks, the missional guys, the externally focused guys, the multi-site, is we’re now looking outside of ourselves.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — But in large part, we’re still looking outside of ourselves as growth strategies for our things. If you really go look under the hood of a lot of those.Todd Wilson — And then I would say coming out of the externally or outwardly focused era, 2015 to 2025, I just have no other name than the disruption era. As I was doing the research on this book, um I had to stop at like 12 major disruptions that happened in that time period with COVID right in the middle. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so that’s the…Rich Birch — Political upheaval. There’s a bunch in there in that same, you know, yeah, that there’s been a schism.Todd Wilson — You’ve got deconstruction of faith.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You’ve got cynicism. You’ve got platformed individualism with the birth of social media. Now anybody can be their own, you know, playlist influencer. There’s just so many disruptive factors in there.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Now you look at all those disruptive factors with the evolution of what’s happening in the church and the church operating system. And it leaves us on a very shaky foundation at that point that, you know It kind of brings us up to where we are now, and you can either be a pessimist at that or an optimist. And I choose the optimist path that we’re poised for a new day and a new operating system is my prayer.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And friends, as you can see, you just got a real thin slice of, you know, just all the various phases that you do such a great job unpacking for us to help us really understand how we we got here. It was It was wild, it’s wild thinking about a lot of that because I remember, you know, various phases of those over the last particularly 25 years, you know, seeing that up close and seeing, you know, kind of the impact that has had and then wondering about the future and where we go from here. Rich Birch — So thinking about the future and, you know, obviously you’ve, um you know, you’ve you’re making a clear clarion call around, hey, we’ve got to think differently than the consumer driven operating system. We’ve got to we’ve got to come up with something different. After all of that, um and we’ve kind of covered this already, but I’d love to make sure we kind of hone on this, have this resonate with people that are listening in. Why is it so difficult for that system, for the consumer-driven operating system to to really ultimately produce healthy reproduction and multiplication and in churches? What’s structurally ah broken about it? And what what would be some first steps we should be thinking about change to the future as we think about, okay, where we go from here? Todd Wilson — Yeah.Rich Birch — How do we, you know, build on the positive stuff, but also look for something different as we look to the future? Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think we don’t have to make it complex, Rich, if we just keep trying to come back to simplicity for a minute. Like the system that has evolved has actually become pretty complex when you think about it. I would say if we could just focus on, I’m not even going to say changing overnight, but if if I’m a lead pastor, if I’m on staff at a church, I’m really focused on disciple-making as the core mission and growth engine of the church. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — Like what is it, most churches are going to say our mission is disciple making or it’s going to be part of it. They’re going to say we have a culture of disciple making, but it is not what the data shows. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — You know, again, 95% of churches do not have a culture of disciple-making. They have a culture of program activity. Rich Birch — Right. Todd Wilson — And so I’m not an advocate of changing everything overnight, but if you want to shift from a culture of program activity to a true culture of disciple-making‚ it has to start with the lead minister having a simple, reproducible, in-practice disciple-making approach that is being modeled for the… I don’t mean discipling the staff. I mean there’s people the lead pastor are personally discipling, modeling that simple, reproducible process. Todd Wilson — Where we’re starting to see traction and where I think the breakthroughs are going to come in getting us to the new operating system of the future, it is going to start, and it’s it’s happening right now, with pastors who say, you know, if I’m really honest, I’ve been preaching the last 52 weeks. I’ve been leading meetings. I’ve been doing, I’ve been doing, I’ve done, but I’m not really personally making disciples. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And I think it’s going to start with the lead pastor, the elders, senior people saying, If we could only have one metric of success in the next 12 months, it’s not growth, it’s not the activities we do, it’s not the new building. If we only have one measure of success, it’s how many disciples have I personally, relationally been involved in? me Not how many have I preached to, not how many outreach events have we done where we’ve got, but what have I personally done on the disciple-making front?Todd Wilson — And I don’t want to make it more complicated than that. That’s what we’re missing right now.Rich Birch — That’s good. No, that’s really good. Yeah, that’s good. I love the practical takeaway of, um yeah, it’s like, who are the three people in your life that you’re actually discipling? Let’s start there. Rich Birch — So this is kind of a sidebar to it.Todd Wilson — Can I just look real quick?Rich Birch — Yes. Yep. Push back. Yep.Todd Wilson — So David Putman, who’s part of what we do at Multipliers, David’s longtime kingdom guy.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — You should have him on as an interview here. David is completely focused on what he calls the 5-3-2 right now. Five simple reproducible principles, three rhythms, and and two relationships. So it’s a triad of three people that just keeps reproducing.Todd Wilson — Anybody can do it. A ninth grader can do it. A lead pastor can do it. I’m watching this model take different groups by storm right now. And whether you embrace the 5-3-2 or some other model like it, the key is going to be having a simple, reproducible process that works for the lead pastor and anyone else in the church. Same model.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Yeah we had David on back in 2020 and I’m like we got to get him back on uh the podcast. Rich Birch — So sidebar issue, so this is not something we’d you know kicked around ahead of time but it’s kind of adjacent to this. So I am not a I'm not a teaching pastor. Similar to you. I’m not, i never saw myself as a lead pastor. I’ve always been in the like, Hey, my job’s to be in the second chair, cheering for other lead pastors. I’ve worked for um really over my career as an XP three incredible communicator lead pastors who it would appear like, and it is, they, all three of them, God gifted them with this ability to speak and gather crowds. Like that was like core. And, and I, I’ve spent a lot of time like listening to them and watching them. And part of it just appears to be like, it’s definitely a gifting that’s going on there.Rich Birch — And I, over time, ah questions like the following would come up that I would I'd struggle with, where it’s like, it would appear like this person can gather a lot of people, and we can build more chairs in front of that person and people will hear that person and they’ll they’ll take steps towards Jesus. Rich Birch — And I understand that that’s not, or that’s not a full picture of discipleship. That’s one piece of the discipleship puzzle, but it’s not… And the the kind of organizational pressure is, okay, let’s keep figuring out how to build more seats in front of this person and and their gift. How do we get them to leverage their gift well? Rich Birch — And to be honest, I’ve been in conversations where I’ve been the voice of like, I want to line 100,000 people up in front of this person to hear this person speak because I think the way they talk about Jesus is different than what I’ve heard other people say and it it’ll make a difference. Rich Birch — That is, I think, at the center of this tension that there’s some there seems to be something about the gift of teaching that it’s not, I don’t know whether it’s not evenly distributed, or there’s like a brokenness in humanity and we only want to listen to certain kinds of people. I don’t know whether it’s one of those two things. So all I’ve done is describe a problem and I’m going to say, comment on it, Todd.Todd Wilson — Yeah. I think you’re right on the mark. I think I want to affirm that, you know, I mean, everybody has their definitions. I believe the preaching role is, and and the teaching and reaching is a piece of the discipleship equation.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — I think if I’m defining the problem statement, We have made it the biggest piece… Rich Birch — Sure. Todd Wilson — …instead of a piece or a playing a role in it. So I think the issue is that how big we’ve made it. Like you, I was an executive pastor for years. And when I look back on that time, my role was not about holistic relational disciple making that could be the growth engine of the church. and it It was how do we get as many people in seats in the auditorium on Sunday? We need great marketing. We need great outreach.Todd Wilson — And again, I think all of those play a role in the disciple-making process ultimately. But let’s just be honest, that’s not disciple-making itself. It plays a role in the disciple-making process.Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — So the elephant in the room here is, how do we scale disciple-making? If I if I could be If I could be the czar of this, I’m not, but if I could be, I want the genius at the end. I want the unique gifts that are represented across the whole mosaic and the church, starting with that dynamic creature that can attract the crowd. I want it. Todd Wilson — But I also want those senior leaders of the organization I really want to be focused on what is our growth engine and what is our holistic disciple-making process. Rich Birch — Right.Todd Wilson — And the number one thing I want from those senior leaders is not their unique gift. I want their modeling, their personal modeling of the simple, reproducible, disciple-making growth engine that anybody in the church can do. Rich Birch — That’s good.Todd Wilson — I mean, that that preaching gift you’re talking about, that that one lead pastor can do, how many other people in the church can do that?Rich Birch — Right. Not many. Yep.Todd Wilson — So there’s their paradigm. So we need them doing it.Rich Birch — Yes.Todd Wilson — But I would argue what we need them doing even more than that inspiration is modeling the simple reproducible disciple making thing that people know that’s how we’re going to win here.Rich Birch — Yeah. Well, and I’ve that lines up, I’ve said it at probably, well, not a thousand times, but hundreds of times with lead pastors over the years that in the context of this conversation, I would rather them weave in the discussion about their discipleship relationships as like just a normative part of conversation rather than the, we’re doing six weeks on discipleship and how to become disciple making. I’m like, if you just pepper that stuff in week in, week out, it just is a normative part of the conversation that changes culture. Rich Birch — The kind of like, we’re going to make it a program. We’re going to brand it. We’ve got a great name on it. And my experience has been, it’s it’s a little bit like nailing jello to the wall. There’s there’s actually some of that containing of what we’re talking about actually kills the exact thing that we’re trying to do. And so, man, I think there’s a real tension there. And how do we help those people? Rich Birch — Because it’s not like we want them to do a worse job. It’s not like, hey, if you could stop talking in a way that attracts a crowd, that’s not the answer. But we’ve got to, like you say, how do we move them into those personal relationships? That’s fantastic.Rich Birch — Well, this has been a great conversation…Todd Wilson — My question would be, Rich, what what would happen…Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — …if an average lead pastor went on a one-year journey to to of disciple-making themselves? Call it a triad, call it four, five. They’re always, over the next year, going to be in a disciple-making small micro group… Rich Birch — Yep. Todd Wilson — …and all of their preaching is going to be informed.Rich Birch — Yep.Todd Wilson — That’s their laboratory of learning.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s their paradigm. Yeah, that’s good.Todd Wilson — That’s their paradigm. And now they’re bringing it to life, not just as periodic examples, but, you know, my whole frame of reference of my library is what comes out of that experience. Rich Birch — Yeah.Todd Wilson — And our problem right now is that’s just lack. It isn’t that it’s inserted a little bit. It’s just lacking.Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s good. Yeah, this has been great. what ah What a great conversation. And as you can tell, friends, there’s a lot we could talk about there. And a lot you know just there’s a rich conversation that could be had around this. Rich Birch — Let’s let’s pivot and kind of talk a little bit about the book specifically. i want to make sure people pick up copies of this. Again, the name of it is How Did We Get Here? Looking Back to Look Forward. People can get this on Amazon. Are there other places that you would send people if they want to pick up copies of this?Todd Wilson — Yeah. So if they go to church-growth.org, church-growth.org, that’s the book’s homepage. You can actually get the free PDF there. You can get the free audio version there. There’s a full wiki there that people can contribute to. What you kind of mentioned it in passing, but I’ll highlight, it is impossible to read this book and not see yourself in it. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah.Todd Wilson — Anyone who’s been a Christian for a while, they, the editor of the book said the power of this is going to be, she said, I can tell you the page in the book that I entered the story. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Todd Wilson — So you’ve got the free PDF, the free audio, the wiki, and then for people that just want the paper versions, you can get it on Amazon.Rich Birch — That’s great. And we’ll link to that friends so that you can, you know, find that quickly in the show notes and, and friends, I would encourage you again, to me, I think this could be a great resource to do with your leadership team, as I mentioned earlier. It would be a great kind of conversation starter and really context setter for us to think through these issues as we think about the future. Rich Birch — So kind of as we, as we come to close up today’s conversation, any final words as we wrap up today?Todd Wilson — Rich, I just appreciate the work you’re doing. I want to be an encouragement to pastors. Don’t let this book be, it’s not a deconstruction book. It’s not, oh my goodness, the church has fallen apart.Rich Birch — No, yeah.Todd Wilson — We need to keep plugging away doing what we’re doing, but we also have to have an eye on the future that this operating system that has evolved, everything has a beginning and an end. And this operating system, I believe, is in its final days. I think we’re we’re seeing you know less and less effectiveness with it. And I think we just need to be in a posture of giving permission to the next generations to do some trial and error and experimentation and not be locked into the paradigm of the of the past inheriting previous things.Rich Birch — No, fantastic, Todd. I appreciate you being here. And I would echo that, you know, you’re you’re the kind of leader that’s in our corner trying to help us get better. And so I appreciate the voice that you’ve had for for decades. And so I really appreciate that. Rich Birch — If people want to track with you, get connected, follow along with Multipliers where do we want to send them online?Todd Wilson — Multipliers.org can get me to all the different ways from email to phone to social media. So multipliers.org.Rich Birch — That’s great. Thanks so much, Todd. Appreciate you being here, sir.Todd Wilson — Thank you, Rich. Appreciate it.

  Dave Ferguson shares how healthy leaders can multiply their impact without sacrificing their health along the way. Drawing from his new book, Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, Dave offers a practical framework for becoming a healthy, disciple-making leader who champions reproduction. Greg Nettle and Dave discuss why multiplication begins with who you are—not simply what you accomplish. Dave explains his principle that "you reproduce who you are and what you do," challenging church planters to pay attention to both their inner health and the leadership practices they're modeling for others. Dave introduces the **four gauges of a multiplier—relational, physical, mental, and spiritual—**based on Luke 2:52. He shares a simple daily practice for evaluating those four areas, recognizing drift, and making course corrections before unhealthy patterns derail a leader's ministry or relationships. The conversation then turns to the four practices of a multiplier: making disciple-makers, establishing spiritual communities, mobilizing new leaders, and launching new church expressions. Dave and Greg explore how these practices reflect the way Jesus developed and sent leaders—and why multiplication should remain part of a leader's life regardless of the size or stage of their ministry. Dave also offers a memorable challenge for church planters: don't work more—multiply more. Sustainable Kingdom impact isn't about personally doing everything. It's about investing in people who will continue making disciples, developing leaders, and planting churches long after you've released them to lead.   Table of Contents:  00:00 – Dave Ferguson and the future of church multiplication 02:28 – Exponential's 16% Mission and multiplying churches 04:47 – Why Dave wrote Multiplier 06:19 – "You reproduce who you are and what you do" 09:03 – Leadership drift and the danger of ignoring your health 12:00 – The four gauges: relational, physical, mental & spiritual 20:58 – The four practices of a multiplier 24:51 – Don't work more—multiply more 27:27 – Why leaders must keep making disciple-makers

Robbie Seay started a band called Zion in high school near Houston Texas, went to Baylor where he met David Crowder and helped plant a church, fronted the Robbie Seay Band on Sparrow Records with a Billboard charting song, and then made a decision that a lot of people would not have made. He stepped back from the spotlight to pour into other worship leaders through his work at The Worship Initiative.In this conversation Robbie and Bryan talk about:How God pairs passion with ability and why that combination is not an accidentWhat it was like to have the thing so many worship leaders are chasing and then lay it downThe Musician Minister and Multiplier framework and why most worship leaders get stuck in just one laneWhy the local church was always the through line even during the recording artist yearsThe science of singing and why what worship leaders do matters more than they realizeHow tools like Sing for Churches and Psallo are helping worship leaders disciple their people all week long not just on SundayThis one is for every worship leader who has ever wondered which lane they are actually called to and what it looks like to walk in all three.Check out: Sing for ChurchesCheck out Psallo Join Sing Follow The Worship Initiative Join the free Called to Music Facebook Community 

Summary A $30 campsite with a canyon view felt like hitting the jackpot… until Jeff flipped on the lights and watched the floor move. In part five of the DadAwesome Multipliers series, Jeff reads Chapter 19 of the book, "Ant Attack," and unpacks what a million ants taught him about spotting threats, sealing entry points, and cleaning up what already got inside. Then Zach Neese joins with a sobering four minutes on the doorways we open without realizing it, and why nobody else in this world is going to guard your house but you. Heads up: this episode is not designed for little ears. The conversation goes into spiritual warfare, darkness, and the ways private choices affect the people we love most. Top 5 Takeaways The first few ants are scouts, not the problem. Train yourself to look past what's obvious and ask harder questions about attitudes, friend groups, and entertainment choices before they become a full scale invasion. Real freedom propels you to lead. Freedom is not permission to do whatever you want. Healing, forgiveness, and wholeness are what unlock your ability to serve and protect the people God gave you. Threats come through old bridges and new ones. The septic hose was modern convenience turned against them. The tree branches were nature's ancient highway. The tactics evolve, but the goal stays the same. Sealing the doors is not enough. You have to deal with what already got inside, and then intentionally replace it with something life giving. Removing the threat is not the same as restoration. Nobody else in this world is going to guard your house but you. Not schools, not church, not extended family. The assignment is yours, and it takes courage plus God's strength. 5 Quotes "Real freedom propels us to lead. That healing, forgiveness, and wholeness unlock our ability to serve and love the way God designed." (Jeff Zaugg) "A dad fighting his own addiction can't guard his family's doorways. A father still carrying his childhood anger can't see the real threats to his kids." (Jeff Zaugg) "Every open door is a spiritual gateway." (Zach Neese) "We give him permission all the time to rearrange the furniture, so to speak, in our hearts and our house, so that he is the only spirit that feels welcome here." (Zach Neese) "I wasn't just being entertained by a movie. I was being entertained by the spirit behind the movie. And that spirit wasn't just in my closet. That was roving through my house." (Zach Neese)   Guest Bio Zach Neese is a pastor, worship leader, and author who has spent years teaching on worship, spiritual authority, and the doorways we open in our homes. His conversation with Jeff first aired on DadAwesome episode 159, and the clip featured in this episode digs into how entertainment choices, conflict patterns, and private habits can invite influences we never intended to host. (Verify current role and book title before publishing.) Action Steps Reflection Walk your doorways. Grab paper or a note on your phone and list them out: phones, tablets, gaming systems, streaming devices, specific apps, YouTube, Instagram. Look for the white powder. What warning signs have you driven past without asking questions? Notice the small stuff. What are the few ants on the countertop right now? An attitude, a mindset, an entertainment choice that could become a full scale assault? Check your own closet. What is hidden that you have convinced yourself is not really causing harm? Multiplication Who are the men who know what is in your closet? How do you close that gap this month? Share episode 447 with a few dads who are fighting for freedom alongside you. Read Nehemiah 4:13 and 14 with your family and unpack what it means to fight as a family. Listen to the full Zach Neese conversation in episode 159. Apply for the September DadAwesome Accelerator cohort. Activation Cut down one bridge this week. Remove a subscription, remove a device, create a new boundary. Pray out loud. Use the John Eldredge Daily Prayer and the head of household prayer. Out loud matters, because the enemy cannot hear your thoughts. Replace, do not just remove. Pick a book, a rhythm, or a practice to fill the space. Go deeper with the Chapter 19 DadAwesome Lab. LINKS Spartan Team DadAwesome, Dallas, Texas, October 17 https://givebutter.com/DallasSpartan Leave a VOICEMAIL: https://www.speakpipe.com/DadAwesome Join Team Awesomeness (monthly support team) at any level from $7/month to $1000/month... We have 41 families committed to fueling the ministry DadAwesome as we head toward celebrating 9 years of AWESOMENESS this coming winter: https://www.dadawesome.org/give Join the DadAwesome Prayer Team: Text "pray" to (651) 370-8618 Apply to join the next DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text the word "Dad" to (651) 370-8618 7-Day Video Series: dadawesome.org/book Free Chapter + Intro Video Series: dadawesome.org/book Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text "Dad" to (651) 370-8618 DadAwesome Labs, Chapter 19 Episode 159 with Zach Neese https://www.dadawesome.org/blog/216 Entertaining Demons Unaware: Closing the Doors of Demonic Influence in your Life by Zach Neese John Eldredge Daily Prayer https://wildatheart.org/prayer/daily-prayer-john/ Galatians 5:13 Nehemiah 4:13 and 14

In this episode, Michael Blank explores how artificial intelligence is transforming commercial real estate investing—and why investors who learn to use AI effectively will have a significant advantage over those who resist it. Michael breaks down practical ways to use AI agents across the entire investment process, from researching markets and finding brokers to analyzing deals, underwriting opportunities, raising capital, nurturing investor relationships, and creating marketing content. He also explains why understanding the fundamentals remains critical, since AI should function as a powerful junior analyst rather than replace human judgment. With examples using Claude, Claude Code, and AI-powered workflows, Michael shows how investors can automate repetitive tasks, save significant time, and build customized systems that become increasingly useful as they learn the investor's preferences and context.Key TakeawaysAI Is a Multiplier, Not a Replacement for ExpertiseAI can dramatically accelerate your work, but you still need to understand the fundamentals well enough to identify errors and make sound investment decisions.Automate the Tasks You RepeatLook at the things you do daily, weekly, or monthly and identify opportunities to build AI agents that can handle repetitive work in the background.AI Can Streamline the Entire Deal Flow ProcessAgents can help research markets, identify brokers, draft personalized outreach, manage responses, organize deal pipelines, and process new information as it comes in.AI Can Dramatically Speed Up Deal AnalysisTools like Claude can extract information from offering memorandums and spreadsheets, reducing manual data entry and helping update underwriting as new documents arrive. Investors still need to review the output and understand the underlying analysis.Capital Raising Can Become a Repeatable SystemAI can help create investor packages, identify prospective investors, personalize outreach, coach conversations, manage investor pipelines, and consistently nurture relationships.The Future Is AI With ContextMichael explains how agents that maintain long-running context about an investor's business, goals, relationships, and preferences can move beyond simple prompts toward acting like an autonomous chief of staff.Connect with our Deal Maker PartnersCheck out all Partners hereAttorney - Swafford Law LLC Mentor - Deal Maker MentoringResourcesConnect with Michael BlankTheFreedomPodcast.com Join the Deal Maker MastermindExplore Michael's Mentoring ProgramReview the Podcast on Apple PodcastsGet the Syndicated Deal AnalyzerGet the Book, Financial Freedom with Real Estate Investing by Michael Blank For full episode show notes visit: https://themichaelblank.com/podcasts/session536/

SUMMARY When Jeff's sister lost her engagement ring in a five acre pasture hours before her wedding rehearsal, a rope, a grid, and a prayer turned an impossible search into a three minute miracle. In part four of the DadAwesome Multipliers series, that story becomes a blueprint for intentional fatherhood built on three things: a system that works, partners in the search, and faith in what you cannot yet see. Chad Johnson joins with a segment unpacking his Giant Five framework and why putting career first costs a man everything that matters. KEY TAKEAWAYS Intentional dads need a system. Without one, you chase whatever is loudest instead of the people you love most. The Giant Five framework orders your priorities: faith, marriage, children, health, and work. Most men have that list upside down. You were never meant to search alone. Partners spot what you miss and call you higher when you drift. Love sometimes looks like challenge instead of comfort, especially when your kids are settling into ease. You don't have to search the whole field today. Move the rope a few feet and walk the line again. QUOTES "I really am okay with stirring the pot." (Chad Johnson) "Live like a movie you'd want to watch with your children and grandchildren." (Chad Johnson) "I call it turning success upside down." (Chad Johnson) "Any fruit that anybody ever sees in my life is in spite of me." (Chad Johnson) "Don't get overwhelmed with the entire field. One pass at a time." (Jeff Zaugg) ABOUT CHAD JOHNSON Chad Johnson is a father of eleven, an entrepreneur, and the creator of the Giant Five framework, a simple system for keeping faith, marriage, children, health, and calling in their right order. He is known for pushing his family toward character over comfort, including relocating them to Los Angeles for five months so his kids could work in his business facility. Chad previously joined DadAwesome for episodes 216 and 217. ACTION STEPS REFLECTION Map your fields. Get a piece of paper and map your current life as a dad. Where does connection feel distant? Is there a child where things feel cold? Where could you raise your game in pursuing your wife or your time with God? Be honest about the gap. Name what you are hoping for in each area. Without naming the hope, you cannot see the distance between where you are and where you want to be. Run the Giant Five. Faith, marriage, children, health, work. Pray through which one is currently getting your leftovers. For many men it is work that needs to be turned upside down. For others it is the opposite, and career needs more drive because provision is the real need. Celebrate one win. Look back and name one victory. Do not skip this part. MULTIPLICATION Name your partners. Who are the other dads in this adventure with you? Is there a rhythm of meeting? Is there a text thread already going? The field search never would have worked alone. Get the free small group curriculum. Send a voice message with your name, where you are located, and your idea for a fall small group. You will get the three page PDF back. Send a few texts. Invite two or three dads to listen to episode 446 so you are all working from the same framework. Use the side door. Extend a tangible invitation: the Spartan race in Dallas on October 17, or the fall 100 mile running challenge. ACTIVATION Block the time. Put a block on your calendar this week for deeper work on the Giant Five. Do not just listen and move on. Open Luke 15:3 through 7 with your family. Read the parable of the shepherd who leaves the 99, then tell your kids directly: this is how I feel about you. I will always come looking for you. Pause and pray first. Before stepping into any of these areas, stop and pray, the same way Jeff and his sister did before they started the search. Move the rope. Ask God for one area where you can move the rope seven or eight feet tomorrow. One pass at a time. Keep celebrating. Look at what God has done and mark it. Go deeper. DadAwesome Labs for Chapter 11 is linked below with additional activations and discussion questions. LINKS MENTIONED Spartan Team DadAwesome, Dallas, Texas, October 17 https://givebutter.com/DallasSpartan DadAwesome 100 Mile Fall Running Challenge - https://givebutter.com/dadawesome100 Leave a VOICEMAIL: https://www.speakpipe.com/DadAwesome Join Team Awesomeness (monthly support team) at any level from $7/month to $1000/month... We have 41 families committed to fueling the ministry DadAwesome as we head toward celebrating 9 years of AWESOMENESS this coming winter: https://www.dadawesome.org/give Join the DadAwesome Prayer Team: Text "pray" to (651) 370-8618 Send a Voice Message to DadAwesome Apply to join the next DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text the word "Dad" to (651) 370-8618 7-Day Video Series: dadawesome.org/book DadAwesome Podcast: dadawesome.org/podcast Free Chapter + Intro Video Series: dadawesome.org/book Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text "Dad" to (651) 370-8618 DADAWESOME book: dadawesome.org/book DadAwesome Labs, Chapter 11:  Episode 216 with Chad Johnson: https://www.dadawesome.org/blog/216 Episode 217 with Chad Johnson: https://www.dadawesome.org/blog/217  

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Spence Shelton, Lead Pastor of Mercy Church, a rapidly growing multisite church in Charlotte, North Carolina. Since launching in 2015, Mercy has expanded to multiple campuses while maintaining a relentless focus on reaching people, developing leaders, and sending them into ministry. In this conversation, Spence shares how churches can intentionally build a culture of multiplication by developing leaders from within, creating healthy sending pathways, and stewarding opportunities for church revitalization. Stop “plucking” leaders. Start growing them. // One of Spence’s biggest challenges to church leaders is resisting the temptation to solve leadership shortages by hiring talent from elsewhere. Just as churches prioritize reaching lost people rather than simply attracting Christians from other churches, they should approach leadership development the same way. Instead of constantly recruiting experienced leaders, churches should intentionally identify, disciple, and develop people already sitting in their congregations. This approach takes longer, but it creates leaders deeply shaped by the church’s culture and mission. The power of the shoulder tap. // Many future ministry leaders never consider vocational ministry simply because no one asks them. Spence encourages pastors to intentionally “tap people on the shoulder” when they observe leadership potential. Some of Mercy’s key leaders—including executive pastors and campus pastors—came directly from marketplace careers like banking, manufacturing, and physical therapy. Rather than waiting for seminary graduates to apply, Mercy helps people connect their existing gifts and experiences to ministry opportunities. Create a clear leadership profile. // To make leadership development intentional, Mercy created a “Lead Pastor Profile” built around three categories: character, competency, and calling. While designed for future church planters, the framework serves as a roadmap for developing leaders throughout the church. By clearly defining what healthy leadership looks like, staff members know exactly what qualities to identify, cultivate, and reproduce in others. Character matters before charisma. // Within the character category, Spence believes self-awareness is one of the most overlooked leadership traits. Effective leaders understand both their strengths and limitations and are secure enough in their identity in Christ to build teams around areas where they are weaker. Without self-awareness, talented leaders can make excellent first impressions while creating long-term organizational damage. Character requires observation over time and not just impressive interviews. Multipliers build movements. // When evaluating leadership competency, the ability to multiply is critical. Can this person develop other leaders? Have they demonstrated the ability to move beyond accomplishing ministry personally and instead equip others to lead? Churches often unintentionally hire capable “doers” rather than leader-builders, limiting long-term growth. Multipliers create healthy ministries because they reproduce leadership instead of accumulating responsibility. Alignment creates unity. // Calling isn’t simply about theological agreement, but also includes ministry philosophy. Spence stresses the importance of ensuring leaders share the church’s convictions about how ministry is carried out. When someone consistently wants to reshape the church into something fundamentally different, the healthiest response may be helping them pursue the ministry God is calling them toward elsewhere. Clear alignment creates healthier teams and stronger long-term partnerships. Let people discover their gifts by leading. // Churches shouldn’t expect to know someone’s leadership potential before giving them opportunities to serve. Mercy intentionally creates pathways where people can lead community groups, coach leaders, and gradually assume greater responsibility. Some will flourish as long-term small group leaders. Others will demonstrate broader leadership gifting and eventually plant churches. The key is creating a culture where trying, learning, and growing are celebrated rather than feared. Revitalization begins with humility. // Spence also shares lessons from Mercy’s experience helping revitalize struggling churches. Successful partnerships require patient relationships, deep humility, and genuine respect for the legacy of existing congregations. Rather than viewing church buildings as opportunities to expand Mercy’s influence, the team approaches every conversation as the stewardship of Kingdom resources. By honoring the faithfulness of previous generations, Mercy has seen older congregations joyfully become part of new seasons of ministry fruitfulness. Faithfulness compounds over time. // Spence closes with an encouragement for church leaders: don’t underestimate what God can do through long-term faithfulness. Leaders often overestimate what can happen in five years while dramatically underestimating what God can accomplish over twenty. Healthy multiplication isn’t built through shortcuts. It grows steadily through consistent obedience, patient leadership development, and a commitment to stay the course. To learn more about Mercy Church, visit mercycharlotte.com or follow Spence Shelton or the church on social media for additional leadership resources and updates. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school's facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they're here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You know, this week is a great conversation and was recommended by one of my favorite church leaders in the country. And so you’re going to love this conversation. It’s going to be super helpful. And I do think it’s going to challenge you and provide you some steps forward. Rich Birch — Excited to have Spence Shelton with us. He is from Mercy Church, a multi-site church with three locations, if I’m counting correctly, in Charlotte, plus Church Online. God is leading Mercy Church into a season of a bunch of expansion and investment in ministry facilities and outreach over a two-year discipleship initiative called All to Him. They have a goal to launch the Mercy Family of Churches in in late 2025, which I think is maybe launched, or we’ll see where that goes, and is aiming to form their own collective within the next five years. Super excited to have you on the show today, Spence.Spence Shelton — Man, such an honor to be with you, Rich. Man, this is, I’m a big, going to say it, I’m a big fan of yours, man… Rich Birch — That’s kind of you to say. Spence Shelton — …because you have produced so much helpful content for me as a leader to lean into and grow little by little. And I can only hope that I can contribute a little bit more to the great work you’ve been doing, man.Rich Birch — Come on, that’s amazing. Honored to have you with us and to learn from you today, Spence. And mutual friend in Andrew Hopper…Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — …who I love, fantastic leader. And so shout out to Hopper. Thankful for what God’s doing in his church as well. So Mercy Church started in 2015. Give us a picture of kind of where things are at today. If we were to come to the church, what would we experience? Kind of talk us through the last season, kind of the last couple of years. What’s that look like?Spence Shelton — Yeah, man. So if you came to Mercy today, what you’d find is a church, you might be surprised to learn how big it actually is because the church is, you know, a couple thousand people, but it’s across seven services and three campuses. And there’s some of some of that’s intentional. Some of that is, hey, we’re just kind of following the Lord where he’s led in this. And we didn’t really plan for it, you know, so. Spence Shelton — Our average service size is not that big, but we’ve the Lord’s been really gracious. If you came what you’d find is especially at our broadcast campus you’d find an old church building that you’d be thinking: wait are all these people how are they you know filling in here, you know. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — And you’d see cars parked uh all through a neighborhood and everything else and you’d see a retrofitted old church building, and that’s just the story of God’s grace on us – a building that was given to us and a church family that decided, hey we want to join you guys and they gave us their building. Really cool moment that like a legacy moment of faith in our church. And a couple other spots where we’re seeing similar sorts of things and it’s just it’s awesome, man. Spence Shelton — So we feel blessed. We feel like we are um doing what God has called us to do because we’re seeing that kind of momentum in the ministry that we’re doing. But none of our facilities are going to wow you, I promise. I actually love training church planters because, you know, so many times they come in and they’re like, Oh, ah we can do this. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — I’m like, yeah, you can do it. You know? Rich Birch — That’s normal like us.Spence Shelton — So we are praying and asking the Lord for better wins. Yeah. But you can do it, man. If you can do it here, you can do it anywhere kind of thing. So Lord’s been really gracious to us. And it’s a, it’s been a real joy these past 10 years.Rich Birch — It’s so cool. It seems like you guys are in a bit of a pivotal season or an inflection point season where you’ve got a bunch of things on the horizon, launching Mercy Family of Churches… Spence Shelton — That’s right. Rich Birch — …the 50 Missionary Goal by 2030, a collective. Talk me through those. What is the future look like? What’s driving the urgency? Help us understand kind of what the future looks like.Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, I think this happens for any church, both leader and in just the life of a church. You come to those milestone moments. We hit it last year with 10 years, and it was not only a milestone in terms of age. There was some just real growth that had been happening to the church that was forcing some good conversations around long-term you know expansion so that we can continue to facilitate what we believe God, actually, I should say we could steward what God is doing in our church.Spence Shelton — And so we launched an initiative that we called All to Him. I was teaching through the book of Romans all year last year. And so it comes out of Romans 12:1 and 2, because Christ gave his all for us, we give our all to him. That is our living sacrifice that we do. Spence Shelton — And so we said, we got some goals as a church, man. We want to see our church, we got some reaching goals. We got some training up goals. We got some sending out goals. Because when I planted Mercy Church, one of the things that was on my heart: if we’re going to come to Charlotte, North Carolina, we were going to be a sending church. Which means we’re going to build a sending hub here where this thing’s going be like an aircraft carrier that just sends out missionaries all over the place into the battles that the Lord has for us across the world.Spence Shelton — That was just on my heart. Instead of going to, you know, a place that might be, might have a, I don’t know, like a north Pacific Northwest or Northeast, something like that. If we’re coming to the Southeast to the Bible Belt, we’re doing so intentionally. Very intentional.Spence Shelton — So that’s been on our heart um ever since day one and this All to Him initiative. You know, we were hoping that by 2030, we double the size of our church. That’s because Charlotte is growing by 150 people a day.Spence Shelton — So like, we’ve got to, you know, this isn’t like it’s just because it’s something we want to do. It’s a calling, a good stewardship of the moment that we’re in. And we want to we’re launching a seminary certificate program for our members of our church because we want to train them up. Right.Spence Shelton — And we got a goal to see 50 missionaries go on the mission field by 2030. We just planted a couple of weeks before the recording of this, we planted our next church here in Charlotte, and we’ve got plans for several more.Spence Shelton — We are a large family of churches about to become a collaborative. We’re, we’re ah you know, 2028, 2029, somewhere around there, we’ll officially form that collaborative if the Lord continues to do what he’s doing. All because, man, we are convinced that God has brought us here to reach people, train them up, send them out, which I hope does not sound novel to any church leader listening to this.Spence Shelton — I hope it just sounds like, yeah, man, that makes sense.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — It’s like, well, then what’s the the magic or what’s the the secret sauce? It’s just putting your hand to the plow. And now here we are 10, 11 years in, and we’ve been steadily doing that same work. And I think the Lord is, um you know, our buddy Andrew would use the flywheel. That’s his favorite version of that illustration. But you keep putting your hand to the same thing and eventually the Lord starts to bear fruit. And that’s what we’re seeing now.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good. And yeah, you know that and you’re a kind leader, you know that for some leaders, the reason why we’re talking to you today is unfortunately, that is more novel than it should be. And so we want to dig into that a little bit.Spence Shelton — Sure..Rich Birch — Particularly, let’s maybe start with that middle section, this training goals, you’re working on trying to train people up. When you’re thinking about the kind of leadership vision you have as a church, you’re thinking about, hey, we’re going to raise up leaders both you know here to and then also sending.Rich Birch — I think we we can fall into this dichotomy around, okay, so do we find these leaders from other places and attract them to come here? Or, do we grow them up internally?Rich Birch — Do we find a way to develop them internally? So it’s this idea of plucking talent rather than developing it. Talk to me through why is training so hard in so many churches? Why do we struggle with that? And we seem to default towards, let’s just find somebody from over there and have them come and help us here.Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, I think that mentality starts all the way down to the idea of reaching people that don’t know Christ versus just sheep swapping from one church to the other church. Right.Spence Shelton — So you can grow your church by transfer growth. Um, which I actually am one who, Hey man, if somebody on the sideline in one church and then they plug into your church, I I’m all for it And if the same thing happens with Mercy, all for it. Spence Shelton — But our aim, what we all know as pastors and ministry leaders is our aim is man, let’s reach lost people and then disciple them. Right. Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — The same thing I think should be true with leadership development. For some reason, when it comes into developing leaders, we tend to go a different direction and think, well, let’s just go find where some leaders are and get them to to plug in.Spence Shelton — It’s like, we don’t do that even with discipleship. Why are we switching our mindset? And so I want to just kind of, I have to, I was convicted and wanted to call our church and I would call others to the same mindset that you have with discipleship. Let that carry over into your leadership and your leadership development as well.Spence Shelton — And I think that’s how we’re going to grow, just as how we’re going to grow the kingdom by reaching lost people, how we’re going to grow the leaders in the kingdom, the number of leaders we have, it’s going to be developing them in our church. And I just… I don’t know that we’re even thinking that way and asking the question, is the guy who’s a 27-year-old physical therapist in my church, has anybody ever bothered to tap him on the shoulder and ask, hey, man, could God be calling you into ministry?Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — Because I watch you and no we’re not doing the shoulder tap, man. And so um right now, I just I love it. Just a little bit of the story of our church… Rich Birch — Yeah. Spence Shelton — …our executive both of our executive pastors and two of our three campus pastors were all in the marketplace. One of our executive pastors was in banking. Another was a plant manager. We have two campus pastors who were both, I use physical therapists because they’re both former physical therapists. And you know, we’re sitting there having these conversations.Spence Shelton — You know what makes a great pastor is someone who has sat with person after person told them, hey, you should do this to feel better. And then they come back to you later and say, hey, I don’t feel better. And you say, did you do the thing I told you to do? And they say, no. And you say, well, you should have done that.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — And a patient, long suffering physical therapist turns out to be a great pastor, but somebody’s got to tap him on the shoulder and say, hey, man, I think God might be calling you into this. And so my my encouragement to anybody who’s a in ministry right now, kind of in that leadership development role, and you’re like, I don’t know, we’re gonna have to go outside to find some talent.Spence Shelton — I promise it’s going to take longer the way I’m talking about. But if you will seek the Lord, ask the Lord, and then start shoulder tapping and giving some opportunities for guys to lead, for men and women to lead there in your ministry and whatever the leadership roles might be, I think there might be more people in there than you realize. Because I believe that God provides for the church that he’s growing, that he’s called you to lead. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Spence Shelton — And so I think the same thing is true with leaders as well.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. I love that. And I you know I love the even the vision for, hey, maybe there are some people within your church. We see this statistically, like even if you’re thinking about campus pastors, 9 out of 10 campus pastors are coming from within, which means we’ve got which means we’ve got to get good at this. Spence Shelton — Yeah.Rich Birch — And yeah, if your church has any kind of unique slant on the world, you’ve got to find people who have come up through that culture to ah to ultimately push that culture forward.Spence Shelton — Yes.Rich Birch — I love this this marketplace to ministry transition. How do we help people do that? That’s a real key transition. I would imagine on your end, you’ve got to help connect the dots for somebody. I love that there, how you even with the physical therapist, we’re able to connect the dots between, hey, here’s what you’re doing. Let me talk to you about the kind of role that we’re thinking about. How do you make that transition? Have you developed anything to try to help make that, you know could you know, connect those dots for people as you’re having those conversations?Spence Shelton — Yeah, I would say we don’t I don’t have a conversational map that I’m doing.Rich Birch — Sure.Spence Shelton — I don’t have that yet, though I think that’s just like many things, trial and error, and I’m still in the still cooking to formulate that map.Spence Shelton — But what I do have that we’ve worked through with our staff is something we call, it’s interesting, we actually call it the lead pastor profile.Rich Birch — Okay.Spence Shelton — The reason we call the lead pastor profile is because everything we’re doing, we’re building towards, developing towards planting more churches. And you’ve got to have a lead pastor to go and plant those churches. Rich Birch — Yeah. Spence Shelton — Now, the thing is actually when you when you look at it, it’s actually just a ministry leader profile, you know? Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — Everything on there, but there may be a couple of things that are nuanced specifically to lead pastors, but it’s kind of like when you go into Timothy and you see what are the characteristics of an elder? Well, every single one of them is just a good Christian, except then you got this thing able to teach. You know what mean? Rich Birch — Right, right.Spence Shelton — So it’s a similar thing is like most of our profile, nine points on it and divided into three buckets, it’s mostly just what makes a good ministry leader. Well, then what I’m doing is what we are doing is we’re taking that and we’re training our whole staff through it and saying, Hey, here’s what we are looking for. Here’s what we’re trying to develop. And then here’s everything. So I do a training monthly with our staff on these points. Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — And then I do it and I say, yeah, I have to verbally say it, never underestimate or never overestimate, I guess just that it’s going to happen without you saying it, always say what you want them to do, you know, just good old preaching point there. But man, Hey, I want you guys to take what I’m teaching you and go teach your volunteers. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — And go teach those that. And I want you to teach your leaders. And then I want your leaders to be able to teach them. And if it doesn’t work, I want you to come back and tell me so that we can get better at making this a multiplying thing. Right. Spence Shelton — So we just got to have a lot of checks and balances along the way. So we’re hopefully training. And it took a while to pull this together in a way that it makes sense to all of us. And now that we’re kind of running it, we can see the value in it of, hey, this is what we’re looking for. And now you can go shoulder tap and say, I know what I’m looking…So the the kids director can go, I know what I’m looking for.Spence Shelton — Now I can go and start shoulder tapping because I know what, you know what i mean? Now that know what I’m looking for, it’s…Rich Birch — Totally.Spence Shelton — Those are probably the the beginnings of a conversational map to to walk somebody through, but at least you know what you’re looking for. You can start to have those conversations. And if you have the relational equity, those conversations can really go somewhere.Rich Birch — Love it. I’d love to double click on that. I love this lead pastor profile idea. I think working to get the clarity I think is in is a great, you know, a great task for all of us to wrestle through.Rich Birch — We think, well, we want to develop our leaders, but then we don’t have any definition of what do we mean by a leader, like at its more most basic level.Spence Shelton — Yes.Rich Birch — So we don’t need to get into all nine, but are there a couple of them that are either counterintuitive or maybe we miss, or you find yourself coming back to time and again, that are like real dividing points or like ones that kind of stick out to you in the in the framework?Spence Shelton — Yeah. All right. So obviously all nine matter to me or I wouldn’t have had them all. So I’ll do my best.Rich Birch — Yes, exactly.Spence Shelton — I’ll do my best.Spence Shelton — So we divide him into three buckets, character, competency, and calling. So each one of those has three points under it. And I’ll click on one of them, maybe in each, and you can tell me if you want to go further.Rich Birch — Sure. That’s great. Yeah.Spence Shelton — But in character, the one that I find to be the most overlooked is self-awareness.Rich Birch — So true.Spence Shelton — I find that to be the most overlooked characteristic of a good leader is one who is aware of their strengths and aware of their weaknesses and is settled in their identity in Christ so that their weaknesses don’t crush them.Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — You know, they can instead build a team around them, you know. Because the classic thing with a lead pastor is to say, well, I’m good at vision and bad at details. It’s like, OK, man, maybe we need to do something a little more thoughtful than that, because that resonates with me for sure… Rich Birch — Right. Right. Spence Shelton — …that you ask the guys around me for sure. But what what? what about are you better at vision casting or vision creating? And what are the evidences of that in your ministry? You know, so for me, I’m better at vision casting than I am vision creating. That’s probably my my 9 to 10 is actually sharing it.Spence Shelton — But I got to have some help and and love having help in the other side of that. And so there are plenty of other things like that. But when we have someone who’s not aware of their strengths and weaknesses, usually that’s that’s like a stop point for us.Spence Shelton — And so if we’ve got someone we think, oh, man, they they come across because here’s the thing. Unless you have these points, somebody will can make a great first impression and a lot of long term damage in your ministry. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — Not because they have bad intent, but because they’re not aware of what they’re… And you give them a lot of responsibility and maybe they’re not actually, they don’t have the eyes of Jethro in Exodus 18 to know how to build out a ministry.Rich Birch — Right. Right. Spence Shelton — You just thought they did because they gave off a good first impression.Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — So that’s my biggest biggest one in that character, or not biggest one, but that’s a key one, I think, in the character is…Rich Birch — Right. A key one that sticks out.Spence Shelton — …man, are you self-aware? And so whatever we use, we love different, whether it’s the personality assessments, leadership assessments, but we also, and we just, we wanna develop from within because that gives us the ability to see.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — We can see what their strengths and weaknesses are. Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — Because we’ve had people eyes on them for months and years and you can’t really trade that out.Rich Birch — Yeah, and character takes a long time of up-close observation to really get a sense of where where people are at.Spence Shelton — Yes.Rich Birch — Because, and you know we know this is, this is you know we don’t have to think long. There are lots of examples of leaders who—and all look great—but there’s like a 2% you know, problem in their character that ended up showing itself in the most kind of ugly of ways.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — So I know all nine are super important. I get that. appreciate that. But we can’t be here for three hours. So competency, what was what’s one in there that that that tends to say we’re just trying to whet people’s appetite to kind of help them think through it a little bit.Spence Shelton — Yeah, man. For competency, the one that I would, the the one that, yeah, that spend a lot of time on when it comes to competency, what I would say is the multiplier. Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — I want someone who is a proven multiplier before I move them into an increased um level of leadership and responsibility. I want to see it, man. And if we, otherwise, again, what I’m trying to weed out is someone that talks a good game or someone that just has a, there may be someone I think a lot of leaders that might actually be really strong in the gift of hospitality have found themselves in the arena of administration simply because they are, like generous, kind, easy to talk to people. And they’re great. You want to be around them. They’re probably encouragers, that kind of thing. Spence Shelton — And it’s like, wait a minute, have they multiplied? Do they actually understand what it takes…Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — …to take someone from leading self, to use the old Ramsharan leadership pipeline, from leading self to leading others, have they actually, do they understand what it takes? Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Spence Shelton — And do they understand what it takes to go from leading others to leading leaders? And have they, let’s let’s just look behind them. If you wanna go the the Bible route, you just take 2 Timothy 2:2…are they able to train up faithful teachers who can then teach others also? That to me is, especially when we get into who’s going to go out and plant a church…Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — …and I’m not sending somebody out that’s not a builder. Another way to say multiplier would be builder, but I say multiplier because I’m specifically thinking around leadership and leading those who will lead others. Rich Birch — Yeah. Spence Shelton — If we want to build a movement of churches for the sake of the glory of God, and we want these churches to go and continue to build, there’s got to be multipliers leading this. Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Spence Shelton — You know, gotta be. So when it comes to competency, that’s like a a deal breaker for me for who we’re going to send out the plant. And so I want to develop it starting in our student ministry, you know, and working our way through or starting in our college ministry, working our way through.Spence Shelton — I don’t want to wait until we just try to, otherwise we’ve got to go pluck out from the, you know, ether, somebody that we hope is a multiplier. And I don’t want to do that. I’d rather raise them up.Rich Birch — Well, and we see this temptation in churches when they get to, say, 1,000, and then they’re they’re growing you know they’re they’re eyeing 2,000 beyond. There’s a there’s a dangerous temptation that can come in, particularly for our staff teams. I know we’re talking broader than just staff teams, but particularly for our staff teams, we can ah we can forget the Ephesians 4 call to equip others to to ministry.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — And we just become doers. We hire doers rather than multipliers… Spence Shelton —Yes. Rich Birch — …because they get stuff done. And we’re like, oh man, they’re solving problems for us. But that is can then erode a church long-term very quickly. I’ve seen that so many times where they end up with, you know they slow down.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — They’re like, why are we slowing down? It’s well, because you’ve stopped multiplying. You’ve stopped doing what we’re called to do. I love that. Rich Birch — So then the third category calling anything in there that would, that steps that kind of is similar. Again, I know all nine are are really important, but, but any of those that that kind of jumped to the, to the front.Spence Shelton — Maybe I’ll give you one that has we’ve learned through some some painful trial and error, Rich Birch — Okay. Sure. Spence Shelton — And that is, we call it alignment. And what we mean by that is: as you develop a leader, when it comes to their long-term place in your church and leading maybe even beyond your, so in our case, beyond our church to going in and leading ah a church that’s going be a part of the family of our churches, it’s really important that not only are they theologically aligned, but they are philosophically aligned in terms of how we do church.Spence Shelton — So no shade on any other way of doing church. What I’m saying is so that we can continue to be united in one voice internally, so at Mercy Church with how we do discipleship, and then so that we can be united in how we can help and train one another as a family of churches, we got to be aligned not just around our theological convictions, but on our ministry convictions, how we do it.Spence Shelton — I would say to those of you out there who have a promising young leader, but it seems like they just don’t want to do, they want to change your church into their, a different kind of church.Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — The best thing you can do is set them free. Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — And I don’t mean like, that’s not like code for firing, by the way, that genuinely that genuinely is like, help them find a way, an off ramp to whatever it is they sense God calling them to. If they’re not, you know, they might be just, they need more season of development. That might be all it is. But when it comes to appointing people towards and, and, setting people into key leadership. So take an elder role at Mercy Church, community group coaching, shepherding, that kind of thing where you’re in now, you are shaping, not just participating. You’re really shaping the DNA of our church. Spence Shelton — We’ve got to be aligned with what we’re doing. It also makes for a much more enjoyable experience. I’m not saying we’re not thinking. We’re always thinking over here about how to do it better and trying to be faithful and everything else.Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — Of course. But I’m saying, man, you want to feel like you’re locked arm and arm going together. And when conviction comes that goes a separate way, it’s like best to separate. So we’ve we’ve learned that the kind of the hard way. I think a lot of lessons are hard.Rich Birch — Sure.Spence Shelton — And so I offer this as our missions pastor likes to say, we have paid some dumb tax. Rich Birch — True. Spence Shelton — And so wherever we can save another person from paying it, we’d love to do that for you.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I love that. and And yeah, I think alignment’s a massive deal and and calling it out. And I would think being in a church that is um so focused on sending, you’re you’re hoping that that’s a big part of what’s kind of the outcome of the church. Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — That, you know, having an an outlet for that sending in a way that makes the most sense. Hey, here’s a leader who seems to have the skills and, you know, and and and then you can celebrate, hey, they seem to have some unique ideas that they want to go and see happen somewhere else.Spence Shelton — Yes. Yes.Rich Birch — That’s fantastic. Rather than having to like fight that. I think that’s cool. That’s really good. Rich Birch — So, you know, help me ah pick this apart a little bit. So one of the interesting things I find in this whole kind of leadership pathway, leadership pipeline conversation is there are, so I think we all can be influential. I think in one way we are all called to be leaders, but not necessarily everyone that we’re discipling is necessarily going to be a lead pastor. They’re not all necessarily going to. Rich Birch — Now I understand we’re kind of discipling towards that, but help me understand what are you doing internally with folks that you’re like, I just, they’re just not going to make that jump eventually. How do you have that conversation? I know that’s a hard conversation. What does that look like?Spence Shelton — Right.Rich Birch — Or am I just looking at this wrong? Which could be the case too. Happy to be wrong. Help help me think through that.Spence Shelton — Well, we’ve got to have some freedom that comes from distinctive categories. This will help us a great deal. Helps me in pastoring a great deal. First, we got to have the category of spiritual gift. The Lord has given everyone a spiritual gift… Rich Birch — Yep. Spence Shelton — …and we got to celebrate that. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — And we got to be careful not to turn the leadership pipeline into, or that concept of leader development, turn that into a a grading of gifts. Like you’ve got a, you know, you’re, you need to graduate from one gift. Maybe that’s a better way to say it. Graduate from one gift to the other, to the other. It’s like, no, no, no. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — What we’re not talking about is graduating out of your gift set. God has given you that. And the best thing for you and for his church is to get really good at how he’s given you or how he’s gifted you. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — And when we when we conflate those, when we only talk about just you know getting better, it’s like, man, we got to watch out. Instead, let’s say, how can we get better at the giftings God has given us so that we can steward it really well?Spence Shelton — And then we find ourselves able to say, and when it comes to leadership, and here we are as church leaders, we’re now inside of a category. We’re inside of a category of leadership. And how can we develop leaders who are gifted by God as leaders? Well, the good news is maybe take some pressure off everybody, you’re not really going to know if someone’s gifted in leadership until you let them try to lead. Rich Birch — True, yes. Spence Shelton — So you got to let them try to lead, man. And then as they lead and you give them a couple of swings, two, three, four, whatever, and you coach them along the way, hey, here’s what we’re looking for in a leader. Here’s how you can grow from leading self leading others. Take the pressure off. Spence Shelton — This might be how God has gifted you, we don’t know. But the best way to see, based on what we’ve seen so far, is to let you try. So here’s a community group, and here are the things you’re gonna need to be a good community group leader, and we’re gonna coach you and support you.Spence Shelton — Let’s go. And let’s see what the next six months brings, right? Rich Birch — Yep, that’s great.Spence Shelton — Hey, this went really well. We wanna take you out of this community group leader seat and put you in as a coach. Now there’s a different set of skills you’re gonna need to be a coach, but man, it seems like your people responded to your leadership. What do we think about you as a coach? Spence Shelton — Each set of the way, man, do I have the, the way I always say it to our staff—they’re sick of me saying this, so it’s great to talk to you because…Rich Birch — I’m not sick of it. Yeah.Spence Shelton — …[inaudible] fresh person to say this too—is that clarity in expectations creates confidence in execution. The clearer you are with what you are asking someone to do, the more confident they will be in doing it. Another way to say it.Rich Birch — That’s good.Spence Shelton — So that’s just my my big thing there on on this. Let’s get over now that we’re, and what we’re going to find is some people are going to lead a community group faithfully for 20, 30 years at our church. Rich Birch — Right, right.Spence Shelton — Praise the Lord. What we can’t see is that we can’t see that a failure. Rich Birch — No. Spence Shelton — Others are going to lead for six months to two years. And we’re going to man, this, this person’s a leader and, and we’re seeing it. They already, they’re planting. Spence Shelton — I had someone come up to me the other day at church and tell me, Hey man, I just wanted to tell you, we’re so excited. You challenged me about five years ago to lead a community group. And we just planted our fifth group. And I went, like I went, I was, my mind went so far. I didn’t even have time to be, to be celebrating. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — Cause I was like, does anybody know that there’s a guy out here… Rich Birch — Right. Yes. Who’s just cranking out groups. Spence Shelton — …with the with an apostolic gift just planting groups every year what’s going so so. Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Spence Shelton — I was like hey, but so that that was a a great moment the Lord gave me just of, hey this is this is going really well and there will be some that will lead a group and things won’t go well and they won’t go well and you’ll keep trying different efforts. So to my community group leader friends, hey once someone tries and tries and tries, would you maybe tap their shoulder and say hey can we try something else. You know. Rich Birch — Good. Spence Shelton — Like you are not a failure. We just got to find the gift that God has given you. Rich Birch — Right. Spence Shelton — And the more that’s in the conversation of your church, that’s in the atmosphere of your church—We’re just looking for the way God’s gifted you. And we’re going to try and make you the best you can be at how he’s gifted you.—The easier the conversation is going to be of, I don’t think it’s community group leadership. I don’t think it’s this. I don’t think it’s that. Because we have a culture of, Hey, trial and error, you know?Rich Birch — Right. That’s good. That’s so good. I love that. And I love this has been a great kind of look under the hood of this whole multiplication issue. I think a lot of church leaders out there have the desire. They have the like, oh, we, man, I would love to be a church that has that kind of vision. But then what are the mechanics underneath of that? How do we actually do that?Spence Shelton — Yeah. Yeah.Rich Birch — Super helpful. Pivoting in this totally, well, it’s a related but different direction. Your church has been involved in a number of revitalizations. You talked about on the you know top end, you had a you know facility given to you. And I this is like a super inappropriate, with just a few minutes left, curveball to throw in there. What’s your shorthand thing for us to learn about that? Rich Birch — You know that we’ve seen, particularly from a multisite point of view, this area has grown hugely in the last 10 years. It was 10 years ago, 5% of new campuses came about because multiple revitalization. The most recent study showed showed it was 40%. Spence Shelton — Wow.Rich Birch — I suspect Warren’s out talking right now. I suspect the number is even going to be higher. What are the few things that you’ve learned about, you know, those kinds of conversations and relationships that have allowed it to work for you? And it’s been helpful. It’s been a joy giving part of the story at Mercy. Talk us through that.Spence Shelton — I’m going to do so using another point in my lead pastor profile just to have some fun here.Rich Birch — Love it.Spence Shelton — So one of the things we look for in a leader is confident humility. Rich Birch — That’s good. Spence Shelton — Confident in terms of, man, they believe God has called them to something. You know there’s a there’s a settled confidence there. But the humility to be patient and wait on the Lord and see what he has and to consider others, Philippians, to consider others more important than yourself. Right? This matters a great deal when it comes to this area of revitalization.Spence Shelton — What a leader needs to know that there’s this temptation, and I had it, of why would you not give us your church building? Rich Birch — Right.Spence Shelton — Things are going well for us and struggling for you. Why would you not do that?Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — Well, it’s that there’s an unintentional, I’m call it a holy ambition that may be a little bit creating some blinders. Okay, let’s use the positive side of that. The the negative side would be there’s some arrogance there. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.Spence Shelton — But the positive would be holy ambition. But what you gotta know is, man, often these facilities that are housing these churches, the ones that are remaining, a lot of the times that there are people that have been there for decades and for a generation or two, and they put blood, sweat, tears and money into where they are. Spence Shelton — And we had to take the the approach of slow by my standards, still fast by theirs… Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — …slow by my standards. Conversation after conversation that began with , in both of these cases, began with the church that needed revitalizing coming to us. We didn’t go to them. Spence Shelton — They came to us and said, hey, we’re trying to figure out what’s next. We hear you might be able to help. How can you help?Spence Shelton — And we had to present them. We had to consider that a stewardship process. of a kingdom resource, not a how do we advance the name of Mercy Church.Spence Shelton — And so it’s happened two different ways for us right now. One is a campus of our church. You know, we it took months and months, but they wound up voting to hand us the keys, join our congregation, and we held their hand the whole way through. And it was a really beautiful thing. And it’s where our broadcast campus meets today. Spence Shelton — There’s another one that happened where we decided the best thing was for that to be a, because of the neighborhood it’s in in East Charlotte, to be a church planting incubator where we could plant a church every 18 months to two years. Rich Birch — Love it. Yeah.Spence Shelton — And so that’s what we’re doing right now. And there’s a church plant in there. And that was the best stewardship of that building. And after the conversation with their people, but we kind of, we basically put that with them and say, I had a lot of lunches and dinners that I just I’m going to tell you, if you want to get into this game and you want to do it in a way that’s going to honor the Lord, you got to be ready for the patient handholding that I would say is honoring a legacy of faith these folks are are taking.Spence Shelton — In many ways, the greatest step of faith taken in our church has been a couple of other churches handing us keys…Rich Birch — Yeah, 100%.Spence Shelton — …to something that the Lord was an outpost for the gospel at one point. And now in both of those cases for us and in the others that we’re starting to see that are still too soon for me to talk about, it’s just, man, now there’s an outpouring happening in both of those places. And you got like, man, there’s a couple of folks that are from the original congregation of what is now our, where our broadcast campus now is. And they, they, they’re greeters. They have tears more mornings than they don’t on Sunday mornings.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, for sure.Spence Shelton — It’s beautiful, man. Rich Birch — Yeah, it is.Spence Shelton — I mean, they’re all in. They are way bigger fans of Mercy Church than I am. And I’m the lead pastor of the church. Rich Birch — Yes, right. Spence Shelton — You know what I mean? And they just, they are like, they love, because what they actually are is they, they took a step of faith, a huge step of faith, trusting the Lord. And the Lord has blessed them and renewed a a vigor in their ministry. Spence Shelton — I saw a couple of them, mid 80s, and it was about 11 a.m. weekday and they were leaving the church building. I was pulling up. I just put windows down. Hey, what are you doing? It’s like, well, we just finished prayer walk in the neighborhood a couple of times…Rich Birch — Wow.Spence Shelton — …and it’s getting too hot now. We’re going inside. And I’m like, these are the people I want, man. Rich Birch — Yes.Spence Shelton — Like just they’re retired and they have chosen they’re going their day prayer walking. It’s like, well, you told us to pray. And I’m like, yeah. Yeah. Rich Birch — That’s amazing. Yeah, that’s incredible.Spence Shelton — Thank you for leading the way you have the time and this is what you do with it. So, man, there are if if all we see is just, Oh a facility to advance my cause. And we miss what has actually been the sweetest thing for our church has been our very young church got some grandparents.Rich Birch — Yes. Spence Shelton — It’s beautiful, man. Beautiful. Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. That’s so good. Spence Shelton — So that’s just a little bit I learned from that ah from those couple of runs we’ve had. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s amazing. And yeah, that underlines, so it’s definitely the majority—I think it’s three quarters, if I remember the most recent statistics on these sort of revitalizations—are coming about because the joining church is coming to the lead church, not the other way around.Spence Shelton — That’s right. That’s right.Rich Birch — And so you have to position yourself in a way that that confident humility is a great kind of benchmark to be thinking about, friends. How do we you know hold ourselves in a way that we’re here to serve other people, we’re here to care for them in a way. And I say to church leaders when we talk about these things, I’m like, you have to handle these relationships well enough so that then they’ll tell other people, hey, wow, we loved working with Mercy Hill.Rich Birch — Man, there we love working with Mercy Church. Well, we love working with mercy Mercy Hill too. Spence Shelton — Sure. That’s right.Rich Birch — We love working with Mercy Hill, Mercy Church, too many Mercies. Wow, what a great you know interaction that was been. And wow, that’s a life-giving thing.Spence Shelton — That’s right.Rich Birch — And I loved that. That is what ultimately we’ll see more of these happen long-term. Not because you did some, you know, so too many people have these like, You know, like they use merger and takeover and like this kind of aggressive language, which just doesn’t help in the conversation at all.Spence Shelton — No, it doesn’t help at all. Yeah, that’s exactly right. You got to have that humility. And if somebody’s sitting there wondering, okay, man, well, how do I how do I wait on that without, I want to go get it. I want to get started. I’d say two or three things to do if you’re looking and you believe your church might be a good church candidate for helping another church revitalize, whether that’s being a campus of yours or or something to that effect. Spence Shelton — I’d say first start praying and asking the Lord. And that if you’re not fasting, then you’re not praying yet. Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it.Spence Shelton — So I don’t want to hear that you’re praying if you’re not fasting on this. Secondly, man, this is why networks matter. So I would say whatever your denomination or stream is, whatever, however you’re kind of tied to other churches in your community. If you have no relationships with other churches in your community, and then you want to go and be the revitalizer, that’s going to come, that’s probably going to come across a certain way.Spence Shelton — So There are a number of—years and years and years—of meetings that I’ve gone to, conversations I’ve sat in, in order to genuinely try to say, how can we help? How can we help?Rich Birch — Yeah.Spence Shelton — Whether that’s sending a worship leader to go serve at a church one Sunday morning or helping one church with a a building fundy kind of like thing they got to upfit or something, you know.Spence Shelton — Basically, I’m trying to be a team player in the Kingdom here in our little corner of the world in Charlotte. And then that’s going to earn the respect and the trust for when those conversations can happen in the relational network, those conversations can happen. Spence Shelton — So I am one who just in my nature, I do not like meetings. I don’t like them. Rich Birch — Sure.Spence Shelton — They feel like necessary evils. Rich Birch — Love it.Spence Shelton — And I’m trying to get better about that. But they are actually what I do love and value is trust and relationships. And again, confident humility. I have to be more about the Kingdom than I do about my own church. And a rising tide lifts all boats, you know.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. Well, this been a great conversation today, Spence. I really appreciate that. And thanks for going with me there with that little you know detour at the end.Spence Shelton — Of course, the joy.Rich Birch — That was fantastic. But anything you’d love to share just as we wrap up today’s conversation?Spence Shelton — I would say too—I don’t know what’s spurring this, but something that has helped me so much in my ministry to the leader out there, especially the young leader, but maybe to all of them—you will always overestimate what you can do in five years and you will drastically underestimate what you can do in 20. Rich Birch — That’s so true.Spence Shelton — And there maybe a way to say it is you will overestimate what God will do and underestimate what God will do. So this is a little plug of me saying, stay the course, stay the course where you’re at. The Lord is going to do a work in honor of your faithfulness to the work. Stay in it, man. Stay in it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Just to add to that, I’m doing some research on working on a book on churches that break the 2000 barrier. And one of the interesting telltale signs are senior leaders and senior leadership teams that have been in the same church or the same community for 20 plus years. Spence Shelton — There you go. Rich Birch — So going into their third decade, it just takes time. Spence Shelton — There it is. Rich Birch — You know, it’s not it’s it’s not you know’s not overnight. Rich Birch — Well, I really appreciate this. This has been a great a great conversation. Spence, if people want to track with you or with the church, where do we want to send them online? Spence Shelton — Yeah, man, you can go to probably social media is the the day and age that we live in. So @SpenceShelton is my social media handle. It’s Instagram and and those kind of things. Our church is just @MercyCharlotte. And you can go on our website, mercycharlotte.com. Find everything you need there. Spence Shelton — We’re launching a podcast. Praise God, let’s go. You can find all of it, though, just through our Instagram handles, which is usually a good first landing point for folks. And however we can help, man, feel free to reach out. Nothing super shiny about what we got going on over here, but we love being in the game for the Kingdom. However we can help.Rich Birch — All the best as you serve in Charlotte. Thanks so much, man.Spence Shelton — Thank you, brother.

What's your music catalog actually worth, and where is the industry still leaving money on the table?  This week, Dmitri is joined by our chief writer Tristra Newyear Yeager for a deep dive into eight revenue multipliers that they believe can grow the total addressable market for music. Building on last month's conversation with Eleanor about the rising tide thesis, Dmitri and Tristra break down each multiplier one by one: catalog valuation, revenue recovery, artist and label services, licensing, AI licensing, fan growth, fan revenue, and new music products. Along the way, we mention a ton of companies that are actually building in this space right now, so keep an ear out if you're looking for tools to grow your own business. They talk about where catalogs are becoming an investable asset class, why the industry still has multiple black boxes leaking royalty revenue, and how distributors are evolving into full platforms for artists and labels. They also dig into the complicated economics of AI licensing, from training data to generation to the songs that come out the other end, and look at emerging companies working on attribution, revenue recovery, and fan monetization across the space. This episode is part of the Rising Tide miniseries, tied to this year's Music Tectonics Conference theme, Rising Tide: Grow the Music, Grow the Value. The conference takes place October 27 to 29, 2026, in Santa Monica.   Companies mentioned: Royaltyport, Beatlibrary, Primordial, Legitary, Luminate, Chartmetric, Viberate, Mogul, MusicInfra, Shine-X, Claimy, Curve Royalty System, AIMS, ONErpm, Orphiq, beatBread, SongStats, Sound Credit, LyricFind, Soundstripe, feed.fm, Soundtrack Your Brand, Merlin Connect, ClicknClear, Musical AI, Vocana, Laylo, Symphony OS, Audience Republic, Rap Fame, OpenStage, Fave, Even, Patreon, Vinyl Bar in Shibuya, Hook, AudioShake, Kitbetter, Tiny Vinyl.   The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Visit musictectonics.com to find show notes and a transcript for this episode, and find us on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram. Let us know what you think!    Get Dmitri's Rock Paper Scanner newsletter.

SUMMARY: One ordinary Tuesday in the summer of 2001, Jeff sold a $200 television to a couple in a minivan — and only found out afterward that they were worth $5.5 billion and ranked 57th on the Forbes list. His unawareness didn't change their wealth by a dollar. It only changed how he treated them. In this chapter from the DadAwesome book, Jeff makes the case that most dads are doing the same thing with their own identity: parenting from poverty while holding access to infinite resources, working to earn what's already been freely given. TAKEAWAYS Your unawareness doesn't change your position. Not knowing who those customers were didn't subtract a dollar from their net worth — and forgetting you're God's son doesn't change that you are one. It only changes how you show up. The clipboard teaches conditional love. When affection gets tracked point by point, kids learn love is something they earn. Most of us carry that invisible scoreboard straight into adulthood and into our relationship with God. God set the scoreboard to infinity. Not a clipboard with changing numbers — a gymnasium scoreboard with the infinity symbol permanently displayed. You can't add to it with your wins or subtract from it with your failures. (It's why the DA logo looks the way it does.) Employee mindset and son mindset produce two different fathers. One strives, fears mistakes, measures worth by performance, and competes for attention. The other rests, lives from security, measures worth by belonging, and celebrates other people's wins. Position changes the daily stuff. Instead of managing behavior, you cultivate hearts. Instead of panicking about finances, you remember your Father owns everything. Instead of shame spirals, you experience conviction that leads to growth. QUOTES "My ignorance of their position didn't change their actual wealth. It only affected how I interacted with them." "Over time, that clipboard became a symbol of conditional love. I learned that affection was something I earned — point by point, performance by performance." "My heavenly Father has set the scoreboard to infinity. It can't increase with my successes or decrease with my failures. I can't add to infinity. I can't subtract from it." "We parent from poverty when we have access to infinite resources — striving for acceptance we already possess and working for approval that's already been given." "You're not God's employee, you're His son. And sonship is where fatherhood begins." Bonus — Jamie Winship: "Parenting is very much about the identity of the dad. The greatest gift you can give to your kids is the truth of who you are." ACTION STEPS 1. Reflection Name your clipboard. Every one of us has an area — points, grades, obedience, success, output — where we experienced conditional love. Name it, and name what pushed you toward living like an employee instead of an heir. Do the two-column audit. Am I living like an employee, or like a loved son and heir? Scarcity or abundance? (Downloadable PDF in the show notes.) Ask the two questions. Borrowed from Jamie Winship: sit alone with God, settle down, and ask, "What are the things I believe about myself that hurt me?" Name the disappointments, the failures, the places you feel like you're not enough. Then ask the follow-up: "Jesus, what do you say about me?" 2. Multiplication Send a couple of texts. Invite other dads into episode 445 and grow a circle of men who are growing alongside you. Join the prayer team. Team DadAwesome — 55 men — rides this Saturday to fuel fatherhood ministry. Give 20 minutes of prayer sometime Saturday morning, August 1st. Let's multiply in prayer. 3. Activation Start tomorrow with a declaration. Before you check your phone, before your to-do list starts talking, answer whose you are — and say it out loud, don't just think it: "I am a loved son of God." Remind your kids the scoreboard is set to infinity. Tell them, "I love you because you're mine," not because of what they accomplished. Try, "I'm so glad I get to be your dad. I'm so thankful you're my son." Take the holy pause. When you feel a critique or a scorecard-based thought forming, catch it before it comes out. Notice the moments you'd communicate more love if they performed. Ask your spouse. "Are there ways or times I communicate a lack of love because of a performance or a mistake?"     

In this episode, Shawn Vanderhoven shares what he learned researching how the best leaders help their teams focus in a relentlessly distracting world. Shawn is a longtime partner at the Wiseman Group, where he leads the executive development practice, a collaborator on the New York Times bestseller Multipliers, and the author of the new book Pause: How to Lead Brilliant Work in a Busy World. After hundreds of interviews, the finding surprised him: the leaders who create the most space for deep work are the ones who tap the brakes, treating pauses like a performance pit stop that makes sustained speed possible. He and Andy unpack the Red Queen effect, why so many teams end the day full of activity and short on impact, and why productivity turns out to be a social issue rather than a personal one.Shawn walks through the practical behaviors behind the research, including how leaders help teams choose among too many competing priorities, why growth conversations belong on the monthly agenda, and how to surface the hidden workload that never makes the board. He explains the difference between giving permission to focus and sponsoring it, why inviting dissent leads to more confident trade-offs, and shares the one habit any leader can start this week: tune in before you jump in. It is a conversation about slowing down just enough to do work that actually matters.I hope you enjoy it! As always you can learn more and connect with me on my website (andystorch.com) or LinkedIn. And you can find my books - Own Your Career Own Your Life and Own Your Brand, Own Your Career - on Amazon.Connect with Shawn Vanderhoven: LinkedIn and visit his website: www.pausebook.co

"When there's a gap between our intention and our impact, we diminish others and our communication."The best leaders don't succeed because they have all the answers—they succeed because they bring out the best thinking in others. Liz Wiseman, executive advisor, CEO of the Wiseman Group, and author of the million-copy bestseller Multipliers: How the Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter, has spent years studying why some leaders amplify the intelligence around them while others unintentionally hold people back. In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Wiseman joins Matt Abrahams to explore the habits of multiplier leaders, the subtle ways well-intentioned managers accidentally diminish their teams, and how curiosity, trust, and thoughtful communication create environments where people can do their best work. Together, they share practical strategies for leading with greater impact by aligning your intentions with the experience you create for others.Key Takeaways:Great leaders multiply, not diminish. Create trust, ask more than you tell, and challenge people to do their best thinking instead of stepping in with the answers.Good intentions aren't enough. The most effective communicators pay attention to the impact of their actions, ensuring their support empowers others rather than unintentionally holding them back.Activity:Ask the multiplier question. At the end of your next one-on-one or team meeting, ask: "What do you need from me to do your best work?" Listen without jumping in to solve the problem. Focus on understanding what will help others think, contribute, and perform at their highest level.To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.Episode Reference Links:Liz WisemanLiz's Book: Multipliers147. Disrupt Yourself: How to Innovate Who You Are and Become Who You Can Be212. Break It to Make It: Disrupt Your Way to the Perfect Job FitConnect:Premium Signup >>>> Think Fast Talk Smart PremiumEmail Questions & Feedback >>> hello@fastersmarter.ioEpisode Transcripts >>> Think Fast Talk Smart WebsiteNewsletter Signup + English Language Learning >>> FasterSmarter.ioThink Fast Talk Smart >>> LinkedIn, Instagram, YouTubeMatt Abrahams >>> LinkedIn Chapters:(00:00) - Introduction (00:55) - Multipliers vs. Diminishers (02:26) - The Habits That Hold Teams Back (03:54) - Safety, Stretch, & Trust (05:12) - Curiosity Over Control (06:56) - The Most Important Leadership Question (09:14) - Becoming an Impact Player (12:20) - When Good Intentions Backfire (15:54) - Accidental Diminishing (19:47) - The Final Three Questions (25:07) - Conclusion

Authority does not happen by accident. It is methodically engineered called it Authority Engineering. In this episode of Influential Voices of Authority, Erik K. Johnson unpacks the hidden Authority Playbook embedded inside every successful podcast interview. Drawing on years of rich conversations with industry leaders, Erik distills the six actionable traits that transform a podcast from just more content into an engine that attracts premium clients and coveted opportunities.   Important Links: Interview with Paul "Waterboy" Brown: https://podcasttalentcoach.com/how-paul-brown-uses-mission-and-podcasting-to-build-global-authority-iva-573/ Interview with Dr. Keyvan Eghbali: https://podcasttalentcoach.com/the-difference-between-helping-people-and-true-impact-iva-574/ Interview with Adam Roach: https://podcasttalentcoach.com/why-information-will-never-make-you-the-authority-iva-572/ Interview with Kristen Nolan: https://podcasttalentcoach.com/turning-podcast-interviews-into-revenue-and-clients-iva559/ Interview with Dr. Paul Etchison: https://podcasttalentcoach.com/coaching-business-strategy-iva-564/   Podcast Authority Audit: https://podcasttalentcoach.com/coaching/   Subscribe to the podcast: Apple Podcasts: http://www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/apple Spotify: http://www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/spotify Website: http://www.PodcastTalentCoach.com/podcasts Click subscribe on this video!   Episode Segments: 01:36 The 6 Invisible Patterns of Podcast Authority 03:08 Authority Starts with Mission (w/ Paul "Waterboy" Brown) 05:29 Voice as a Multiplier for Expertise 07:56 Implementation Over Information 08:47 The Power of Storytelling and Context 10:22 Platforms and Accelerating Authority Through Relationships 12:41 Borrowed Trust and Guesting for Rapid Growth 13:24 Personality and Podcasting for Real Rapport 14:28 Trust and Sales: Turning Listeners Into Clients 17:56 Authority is Engineered, It's Not an Accident 18:43 Becoming a Category of One 21:49 Systematic Authority Engineering Framework 24:29 Positioning and Category Leadership 26:27 Chasing the Right Audience vs. Chasing Followers 27:24 The Podcast Authority Audit Explained 28:42 Uncovering Your Authority Gaps With Authority Engineering 30:26 Transforming Content Into Authority That Fills Your Calendar 31:14 Closing and Next Steps   Key Takeaways: - Purpose Drives Authority People follow purpose, not just expertise. A mission bigger than yourself is the foundation of lasting influence. As highlighted in Erik's interview with Paul "Waterboy" Brown, your calling shapes your authority and attracts devoted followers. - Voice Scales Impact Expertise alone changes one person at a time, but leveraging your podcasting voice multiplies your ability to impact thousands, even while you sleep.  - Implementation Leads to Transformation Information alone is everywhere, but helping your listeners implement creates true transformation. Become the guide who leads your audience beyond learning into action. - Storytelling Trumps Data Stories move people to believe change is possible. Infuse your podcast with tension, climax, and resolution. These narrative parables set you apart and build deep connections. - Relationships Compound Authority Guesting on strategic podcasts and borrowing the trust of established platforms is the shortcut to relevance. True growth comes from being in the right rooms, not having the biggest reach. - Authority Is a Choice Each expert Erik features intentionally engineered their position. It is never about luck or follower count, but about building trust, showcasing your personality, and moving into a category of one.   Episode Highlights: Why your podcast is doing the heavy lifting for 70 percent of your sales process The Authority Engineering Framework: Purpose, Persona, Parables, Platforms, Personality, and Positioning Why focusing on "viral" or "downloads" misses the point for coaches, consultants, and experts How implementing just one of these lessons will start filling your calendar with the right opportunities   Ready to strategically grow your podcast authority? Apply for your Podcast Authority Audit and let Erik reveal the exact gaps holding you back from premium influence and growth: https://podcasttalentcoach.com/coaching

Send us Fan MailAI can write your emails, summarize your meetings, and spin up a strategy deck in minutes, but it cannot do the one thing that actually determines outcomes: execute. Grant McGaugh sits down with Peter De la Torre, a longtime executive and the creator behind the Magic of 13 Weeks, to confront a brutal truth leaders need to hear. Most teams don't have a knowledge problem. They have an execution problem, and the gap between knowing and doing is where goals go to die.We dig into the hidden “blind spots” that sabotage implementation, including AI abdication, when companies invest in artificial intelligence but ignore the human habits required to make it work. We also break down the 12-month mirage that turns yearly planning into annualized lethargy, plus the convenience of busy, where meetings and inbox churn replace results. Peter shares a clear rule of thumb for productivity and business growth: protect the time that drives revenue-producing activities or results-producing activities, and automate the rest.The conversation moves from tactics to identity: red ocean competition versus blue ocean creation, personal vision that creates an emotional stake, and ruthless honesty as the foundation for real change. Peter challenges the usual language around accountability, arguing that ownership is the only lever that consistently works, then adds a practical tool to keep execution real: predictive scorekeeping built on lead indicators, like a scoreboard that tells you whether you're winning before the quarter ends.If you want a repeatable execution framework that makes strategy real, press play now. Subscribe, share this with a leader who's stuck in “busy,” and leave a review with the one execution habit you're committing to next.Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Follow The Brand! We hope you enjoyed learning about the latest trends and strategies in Personal Branding, Business and Career Development, Financial Empowerment, Technology Innovation, and Executive Presence. To keep up with the latest insights and updates, visit 5starbdm.com.And don't miss Grant McGaugh's new book, First Light — a powerful guide to igniting your purpose and building a BRAVE brand that stands out in a changing world. - https://5starbdm.com/brave-masterclass/See you next time on Follow The Brand!

SUMMARY   The current chapter of dad life is not the whole story. In part two of the DadAwesome Multipliers summer series, Jeff reads Chapter 2 of the DadAwesome book, The Tale of Two Thieves, and unpacks what a three dozen cookie dough heist taught him about choosing curiosity instead of reactivity. Then Phil Comer joins with a powerful clip on giving a blessing instead of returning evil for evil, and how one choice in a tense room trickles down for generations. This episode closes with clear reflection, multiplication, and activation steps you can take this week.   Key Takeaways You are living into a multigenerational story, and this chapter is only a tiny slice of it. Curiosity opens doors. Reactivity closes them. You cannot eliminate chaos, but you can shape how it unfolds. Stones of remembrance are about keeping the stories alive, not preserving the reminders. Giving a blessing when you have received a criticism changes the atmosphere of a room. Action Steps REFLECTION Look back at the chaos. When curveballs hit recently, were you reacting or responding? Were you making assumptions or staying curious and asking God what He wanted to teach you in that moment? Open your phone and look back at the last month. Scroll your photos, scroll your calendar. Where has God shown up that you have not paused long enough to call to mind? Ask the honest question. If your kids described the atmosphere you carry into the room right now, would tenderness make the list? Would softness? Would kindness? MULTIPLICATION Send the text. Reach out to seven or eight dads and invite them to journey with you through the end of August. If two or three say yes, you have moved from addition to multiplication. Pick your gathering. A text thread, a campfire, a boat, a camping trip with your kids. Make one specific invite this week. Carry a copy. Keep an extra DadAwesome book in your vehicle or your laptop bag and look for the moment to hand it to a dad and tell him you see him being awesome. ACTIVATION Start a family remembrance list. Sit down together, scroll photos and your calendar, and capture the answered prayers, the provision, the goodness, the moments God showed up. Let every kid contribute. Tell the stories out loud. At the dinner table or at bedtime, tell your kids one story of God's faithfulness in your family. Flip the switch this week. The next time a curveball comes, choose curiosity first. Laugh at the moment. Show your kids that dad is anchored and steady, not thrown off.   Timestamps 03:00 This week's theme is story 04:00 Chapter 2, The Tale of Two Thieves 06:24 React or respond, curiosity or reactivity 08:49 The Dad Detective's approach, five practices 11:11 Crafting your family's story 12:45 Stones of remembrance 14:30 Building your family's remembrance list 18:21 Remember this 19:20 Setting up the Phil Comer clip 20:20 Phil Comer on tenderness, blessing, and the choices we pass down 26:45 Action steps: reflection, multiplication, activation Guest Phil Comer is a husband, father, and grandfather with 40 years of pastoral and counseling experience. After planting a church in 2004, Phil and his wife, Diane, went on to launch Intentional Parents International, a ministry equipping young parents and providing focused teaching in the spiritual training of children. This clip comes from episode 317. Links Mentioned Listen to the full conversation with Phil Comer: DadAwesome Episode 317 Intentional Parents: intentionalparents.org Spartan Team DadAwesome, Dallas, Texas, October 17 https://givebutter.com/DallasSpartan DadAwesome 100 Mile Fall Running Challenge - https://givebutter.com/dadawesome100 Leave a VOICEMAIL: https://www.speakpipe.com/DadAwesome Join Team Awesomeness (monthly support team) at any level from $7/month to $1000/month... We have 41 families committed to fueling the ministry DadAwesome as we head toward celebrating 9 years of AWESOMENESS this coming winter: https://www.dadawesome.org/give Join the DadAwesome Prayer Team: Text "pray" to (651) 370-8618 Send a Voice Message to DadAwesome Apply to join the next DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text the word "Dad" to (651) 370-8618 7-Day Video Series: dadawesome.org/book DadAwesome Podcast: dadawesome.org/podcast Free Chapter + Intro Video Series: dadawesome.org/book Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text "Dad" to (651) 370-8618 DADAWESOME book: dadawesome.org/book Top Five Quotes "The current chapter of dad life is not the whole story." "You can't eliminate chaos, but you can shape how it unfolds." "Your kids are watching how you handle the unexpected. What story are you writing?" "It's not about preserving the physical reminders. It's about keeping the stories alive." Phil Comer: "If you, with God's help, can give a blessing when you've received a criticism or a curse, it brings peace and it honors God." Tags DadAwesome, Jeff Zaugg, Phil Comer, DadAwesome Multipliers, fatherhood, christian dad, dad life, parenting, dad podcast, intentional parenting, story, legacy, generational blessing, stones of remembrance, God's faithfulness, curiosity, marriage, tenderness, scripture, Intentional Parents

What if financial freedom did not require decades of sacrifice, stress, and waiting for “someday”? On this episode of I Am Refocused Radio, host Shemaiah Reed welcomes Garrett Gunderson, New York Times and Wall Street Journal bestselling author, entrepreneur, speaker, and founder of Multiplier. Garrett helps business owners strengthen cash flow, keep more of what they earn, coordinate their financial teams, and create lives they do not want to retire from. Garrett challenges traditional financial advice and reveals how outdated money myths, scarcity thinking, and emotional patterns can quietly limit prosperity. The conversation explores financial fitness, independence, legacy, value creation, and how to enjoy life today while still building wealth for tomorrow. This is more than a conversation about money. It is about healing your relationship with wealth, reclaiming control of your financial future, and giving yourself permission to prosper.https://garrettgunderson.com/Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/i-am-refocused-radio--2671113/support.Subscribe now at YouTube.com/@RefocusedNetworkThank you for your time. 

Evan Dash is the CEO of StoreBound and Author of the best-selling book, A Dash of Good: How to Turn a Business Based on Values into a Valuable Business. Evan's journey took him from firefighter to business executive before becoming a household name in the kitchenware industry. Alongside his wife Rachel, they launched DASH, their namesake kitchenware brand. Under Dash's leadership, the company skyrocketed to success, achieving sales of over $1 billion in sales and becoming the world's largest producer of waffle makers, popcorn poppers, and egg cookers, with over 100 million units sold. Before its 10th anniversary, Dash negotiated a majority sale of his company to Groupe SEB, the $8 billion global leader in the housewares industry.Highlight Bullets> Here's a glimpse of what you would learn…. Entrepreneurial journey from firefighter to CEO of a billion-dollar kitchenware brand.Transition from corporate retail experience to founding a business.Importance of a retail-first strategy versus direct-to-consumer approaches.Challenges faced in retail, including inventory management and product-market fit.The significance of a caring company culture and hiring practices.Strategies for DTC brands entering the retail space.The role of AI in enhancing business operations and creativity.Partnership dynamics in business, particularly with a spouse.Lessons learned from early failures and successes in product launches.Emphasis on building trust and relationships with customers and retailers.In this episode of the Ecomm Breakthrough Podcast, host Josh Hadley interviews Evan Dash, CEO of StoreBound and founder of Dash kitchenware. Evan shares his unconventional journey from firefighter to entrepreneur, building a brand that surpassed $1 billion in sales. He discusses leveraging brick-and-mortar retail expertise, the importance of a content-first strategy, and hiring people who genuinely care. Evan also highlights his partnership with his wife Rachel, strategies for DTC brands entering retail, and AI's growing role in business operations.Here are the 3 action items that Josh identified from this episode:Start where you have an unfair advantage Leverage your existing expertise, network, or channel (retail, DTC, etc.) instead of blindly following trends. Validate demand before scaling Use tools like crowdfunding, small test runs, or pilot launches to confirm product-market fit and reduce inventory risk. Treat retail like a different business If entering brick-and-mortar, master pricing, margins, cash flow, and logistics—don't assume your DTC playbook will work.Timestamps:00:00:00 Introduction and Setting the StageEvan discusses generational shifts in kitchenware preferences and the initial marketing approach for Dash.00:00:22 Podcast IntroductionHost introduces the E-com Breakthrough Podcast and sets up the episode's focus.00:00:35 Guest Introduction: Evan Dash's BackgroundEvan's journey from firefighter to CEO, and the founding of Dash kitchenware.00:01:51 Personal Connection and Product RecognitionHost shares personal experience with Dash products and introduces the main interview.00:02:19 Evan's Entrepreneurial JourneyEvan recounts his unconventional path from firefighting to retail and business.00:04:01 Lessons from Retail and E-commerce EvolutionEvan discusses his retail background, the fall of legacy brands, and the rise of e-commerce.00:05:57 Transition from Corporate to EntrepreneurshipEvan explains how being fired led him to start his own business with his wife.00:07:45 Working with a Spouse: Partnership InsightsEvan and the host discuss the dynamics and benefits of building a business with their wives.00:10:02 Travel and Business Partnership BenefitsEvan shares the advantages of traveling and working closely with his spouse.00:11:21 Launching Dash: Retail-First StrategyEvan explains why Dash started with a retail-first approach and the challenges faced.00:12:11 Early Product Experiments and Brand NamingEvan describes initial product ideas, licensing, and the decision to use his last name for the brand.00:14:30 Content-Driven Brand BuildingDash's early focus on content creation, social media, and appealing to younger consumers.00:16:37 Retail Placement and Cash Flow ChallengesHow Dash leveraged retail relationships for credibility and managed cash flow pressures.00:17:47 Retail Flywheel and Industry FOMOThe impact of early retail success and how it led to more opportunities.00:18:35 Product Flops and Risk MitigationEvan discusses product failures, the importance of sell-through, and strategies to minimize risk.00:22:07 Crowdfunding and Retailer RelationshipsUsing Kickstarter/Indiegogo to test products and proactively managing retailer relationships.00:24:30 Advice for DTC Brands Entering RetailEvan's recommendations for DTC brands looking to expand into retail.00:25:08 Learning New Channels and Building ExpertiseThe importance of becoming an expert in new sales channels and hiring for knowledge gaps.00:27:02 Brokers vs. Direct Outreach in RetailPros and cons of using brokers versus direct outreach for retail expansion.00:28:14 Focus, Time Management, and Agency PitfallsThe risks of losing focus, the value of time, and challenges with agencies.00:29:37 Hiring Smart People and Building TeamsHow hiring smarter people and building strong teams drives business growth.00:30:36 Culture of Caring and Core ValuesEvan's approach to company culture, hiring for care, and building a values-driven organization.00:34:15 Defining “Care” in Company CultureWhat “care” means at Dash and how it's embedded in the company's DNA.00:35:16 Empowerment, Trust, and Winning HeartsPairing care with empowerment, trust, and a focus on winning hearts internally and externally.00:38:20 Culture as a Competitive AdvantageHow culture and core values translate to consumer experience and business success.00:39:16 AI in Business: Human vs. AutomationEvan's perspective on AI, its role in efficiency, and why humans remain central.00:40:17 AI as a Multiplier, Not a ReplacementHow Dash is adopting AI to boost productivity while maintaining a human-centric approach.00:41:28 Final Thoughts and Book RecommendationEvan recommends his book and offers to connect with listeners.00:41:49 Three Actionable TakeawaysHost summarizes key lessons: domain expertise, caring culture, and hiring smart people.00:45:08 Rapid-Fire Questions: Book, AI Tool, InspirationEvan shares his favorite book, AI tools, and sources of inspiration in CPG and fashion.00:48:34 Closing and Contact InformationHow to connect with Evan and Dash; episode wrap-up.Resources mentioned in this episode:Josh Hadley on LinkedIneComm Breakthrough ConsultingeComm Breakthrough PodcastEmail Josh Hadley: Josh@eCommBreakthrough.comTools and Websites"Kickstarter": "00:23:27""Indiegogo": "00:23:27""ChatGPT": "00:46:15"Books"

Welcome to Episode 443 and the kickoff of a brand new seven part summer series: the DADAWESOME MULTIPLIERS. It's a lightweight, campfire ready series built to help you spread the mission of Dad Awesome through the end of August. Each week you'll get a slice of the forthcoming Dad Awesome audiobook, a featured guest voice from the vault, real time multiplication coaching, three practical lab activation steps, and a giveaway. https://www.dadawesome.org/blog/443 In Part 1, Jeff Zaugg sets the flyover. He reads the book's dedication and preface, tracing how one casual patio question from his cousin in Arizona, "How do you stay intentional as a dad?", exposed that he was pouring growth into every area of life except fatherhood. That single unanswered question sparked a ten week experiment with twenty friends, a first episode filmed at the base of a snowy sledding hill, a name change from DadVentures to DadAwesome, and eventually a movement built on hundreds of small yeses. The episode closes with a two minute clip from Jeff's first ever interview with Mark Batterson, who wrote the forward for the book.   KEY TAKEAWAYS Intentional fatherhood starts with a question, not a program. Staying awake to "How do you stay intentional as a dad?" changed everything. The mission runs on two turnings from Malachi 4:6, hearts toward heaven and hearts toward home. Read to lead. You don't need 250 books, but read a dozen so you can lead on the home front. Your mistakes are one of your greatest teaching tools. Kids learn to apologize by watching you do it. Prioritize your children, don't idolize them. Batterson names that as a big difference. Batterson learned more about the heart of the Heavenly Father from parenting his three kids than from all his degrees and seminary trips combined. Movements are built on small yeses, not one grand gesture. THIS WEEK'S LABS Reflection: Do an intentionality audit. Open your notes app or a journal and honestly assess how you're staying intentional, heart toward heaven and heart toward home. What are you reading and listening to? Does your calendar show fatherhood is an area of real pursuit? Multiplication: Be an inviter. Copy paste one text to ten dads inviting them into the seven week challenge through the end of August. Listen each week, then get together to talk about it over coffee, wings, a campfire, a run, a bike ride, or a boat. Get two or more to say yes and you've moved from addition to multiplication. Activation: Name your small yes. What yes have you been putting off that God is nudging you toward this week? A dad daughter date, a date with your wife, a follow through you keep intending but haven't done. Pick it and act on it. GIVEAWAY Send Jeff a voice message up to 90 seconds using the link in the show notes. Introduce yourself and share what this first episode stirred up, your action step, or a question. Each week one message gets randomly picked to win DadAwesome summer gear.

Multipliers, as Liz Wiseman identified ("Multipliers - How the Best Leaders Make Everyone Smarter") don't simply recognize talent—they help it grow and spread. Perhaps that's one of the most important roles of an instructional coach. Rather than identifying what teachers are missing, coaches are on the prowl for the capabilities that are already emerging. Noticing them, naming them and creating opportunities for those talents to become even more powerful and, ultimately, benefit colleagues and students beyond a single classroom. Watch the Positive Psychology in Coaching and Professional Practices video (from Growth Coaching International) here. Subscribe to the Steve Barkley Ponders Out Loud podcast on iTunes or visit BarkleyPD.com to find new episodes!

While the podcast team is taking a Radical Sabbatical, Kim is interviewing authors of the books that have had a big impact on her in the past two years.  Building high-performance teams, especially in dynamic industries, can be one of the biggest challenges a leader faces.  Sometimes passionate founders or senior leaders can go from passionate advocate to authoritarian autocrat.  Left unchecked, this can lead to organizations underperforming in the long term and missed opportunities.  So where is the balance?   In this episode, Kim speaks with Liz Wiseman, the author of multiple New York Times bestsellers.  Liz and Kim explore the pitfalls of authoritarian leadership, the power of multipliers, and how leaders can foster environments where everyone does the best work of their lives and builds the best relationships of their careers. Liz does point out that there are certain, limited instances where a top down, “command and control” approach is the right choice (for example, during an acute crisis), but these instances should be rare and targeted.  They also discuss practical strategies for managing diminishing leaders and creating impact regardless of leadership style. They also talk about the importance of understanding power dynamics in leadership.   Guest Background: Liz Wiseman is a researcher and executive advisor who teaches leadership to top organizations worldwide. She wrote the New York Times bestsellers Multipliers, The Multiplier Effect, and Wall Street Journal bestsellers Rookie Smarts and Impact Players. CHAPTERS (00:33) Introduction to Radical Sabbatical and Guest Liz Wiseman (02:06) The Flaws of Authoritarian Leadership (06:06) Diminishers vs. Multipliers: Leadership Styles (12:16) When Authoritarian Leadership is Necessary (20:27) The Balance of Command and Collaboration (23:36) The Impact of Leadership Styles (26:34) Navigating Innovation and Crisis (29:30) The Balance of Authority and Collaboration (32:35) Lessons from Great Leaders (36:38) Understanding Accidental Diminishers (45:03) The Impact of Perfectionism on Team Dynamics (46:09) Understanding Accidental and Intentional Diminishers (47:26) The Drive to Contribute: Empowering Impact Players (48:56) Leading Through Influence: The Role of Impact Players (51:06) Strategies for Thriving Under Diminishing Leadership (52:26) Multiplying Up: Turning Diminishment into Empowerment (55:47) The Power of Listening and Adapting (01:01:04) Leveraging Bosses' Strengths for Better Outcomes (01:03:01) Building Relationships on a Level Playing Field (01:03:55) Understanding and Sharing Power in Leadership Connect with the Radical Candor team: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we're joined by Dave Ferguson, co-founder of Exponential, co-founder of Community Christian Church, and author of Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. For decades, Dave has championed one central conviction: the Church will never fulfill its mission through addition alone. In this conversation, he challenges church leaders to rethink success, embrace multiplication, and cultivate the kind of personal health that sustains lasting kingdom impact. Are you building a church that grows, or a movement that multiplies? Wondering how your leadership today shapes generations of ministry tomorrow? Dave offers a compelling vision for creating influence that extends far beyond your own church. Multiplication changes everything. // Dave believes many church leaders are asking the wrong question. Instead of waking up each day asking, “How can I grow my church?” he challenges leaders to ask, “How can we multiply God's Kingdom?” That subtle shift transforms every leadership decision, from staffing and budgeting to leadership development and church planting. Growth focuses on adding people to one church. Multiplication focuses on reproducing disciples, leaders, churches, and networks that reach beyond one church long after the original leader steps away. The Church needs a new scorecard. // Only a small percentage of churches in the United States are actively reproducing new churches. Through Exponential’s “16% Mission,” the goal is to move enough churches toward multiplication that reproducing churches become the cultural norm rather than the exception. Reaching this tipping point would fundamentally reshape how churches think about mission and influence. Culture beats strategy every time. // Multiplication doesn’t begin with a sermon series or a strategic initiative—it begins with culture. Dave encourages leaders to model multiplication long before they publicly announce it. Whether leading a small group, mentoring an apprentice, or developing future leaders, pastors must demonstrate the behaviors they hope to reproduce. People adopt what leaders consistently practice far more readily than what they merely promote. Health fuels multiplication—not hustle. // While multiplication requires intentional effort, Dave warns against building ministry on relentless hustle. Instead, healthy multiplication grows out of healthy leaders. Churches don’t simply reproduce strategies. They reproduce the character, priorities, and habits of their leaders. If leaders neglect their own well-being, they will unintentionally reproduce that same dysfunction throughout the organization. Watch the four gauges. // At the heart of Dave’s new book, Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, is a simple daily framework for preventing leadership drift. He encourages leaders to evaluate four areas every day: relational health, physical health, mental health, and spiritual health. By honestly assessing these four “gauges,” leaders can recognize unhealthy patterns before they become major failures. Rather than waking up years later wondering how they drifted so far, leaders make small course corrections every day. Even better, Dave encourages processing these areas with trusted community, since accountability helps combat self-deception. Think beyond your lifetime. // Ultimately, Dave invites leaders to adopt a longer horizon for ministry. Buildings, attendance, and personal accomplishments eventually fade, but investing in people creates lasting kingdom influence. When leaders intentionally multiply healthy disciples and healthy leaders, their ministry continues bearing fruit long after they’re gone. That, Dave believes, is the kind of legacy worth pursuing. To learn more about Dave Ferguson, Exponential, and his new book Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, visit exponential.org/multiplier or daveferguson.org. Email Dave directly to get bulk copies of his book. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I'm grateful for that. If you enjoyed today's show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they're extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You’re in for a real treat today. Today is a leader, you know, you have those leaders in your life. You’re like, man, I wish everybody could be exposed to this person and would follow along. And you feel like you’re introducing a friend to friends. That’s what today’s conversation is. And I hope at the same time, it’ll challenge you and encourage you as we think about the future. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dave Ferguson back on the podcast from Exponential. It is a growing community of leaders committed to accelerating multiplication of healthy, reproducing faith communities. They equip multipliers through a variety of resources. You might know their big event, Exponential, but that’s not all they do. They do a lot of other stuff as well.Rich Birch — Dave also was the co-founder of Community Christian in Chicagoland and New Thing. We actually had Ted on recently for a follow-up episode, which is fantastic. So these will this will come out at a similar time. Dave also wrote a book recently that I want you to pick up. It’s called Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. Dave, welcome to the show.Dave Ferguson — Hey, thanks, Rich. Good to be with you. Rich Birch — Yeah, so glad you’re you’re here. Why don’t you fill in the story for folks that don’t know or maybe aren’t following along. Maybe give us fill out the bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background.Dave Ferguson — Long story short yeah, in my early mid-20s I planted a church in Chicago with a whole bunch of friends. God was very very kind to it; it grew had pretty large, and we had locations across the city and the suburbs. Out of that, then we started planting churches. Our first one was in Denver, then Southern California, and then Detroit, then New York, then Boston. And pretty soon we made a shift that we went from not only reproducing new churches, but helping reproduce networks of new churches. And that turned out to be a bigger deal than and we realized.Dave Ferguson — And we got opportunities then to do that in Europe and then in Africa. And next thing you know, fast forward 15, 20 years, and we were in 69 countries. And this will sound better than it is, but we got to help plant over 35,000 churches. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s incredible. Dave Ferguson — And at the same time, we also started Exponential. And so all three of those things had seemed to have God’s favor on it, grew. And in the last year, I apprenticed a new lead pastor, Ted Coniaris, that you referenced, who is, I guess, recently on the podcast… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Dave Ferguson — …and who’s doing a great job at Community.Dave Ferguson — And then then on top of that, we moved New Thing underneath Exponential. So Exponential actually acquired New Thing. And for us, that feels really good. It was pretty, pretty easy transition, but feels really good because we have something we call the 16% mission that we’re going after. And it’s starting to feel actually achievable now. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool. Dave Ferguson — So I think I think that’s all that’s all the things.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s it. Just that’s it. Yeah, that’s amazing. It’s so good. And, you know, there’s a lot I respect about you and your leadership. But one of the core things I love is you’ve really given your life to multiplication. You’re focused on this idea, helping us think about and then really in the best sort of way, poking and prodding and pushing us to come back to this idea. Rich Birch — I think for many of us, the word multiplication is the kind of thing we can hear it so many times. We can kind of tune it out or it like, what does that actually mean? Aren’t we all committed to multiplication? Isn’t it, isn’t that just what it means? So why does it still matter to the church today? Really lay it on thick here. Why is multiplication such a big deal?Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I mean, two things real quick. I mean, one for every one of your listeners, if they’re involved in ministry, I mean, they want, they they’re trading their life and they want to make the greatest impact they can. And I’m telling you, when you don’t invest in multiplication, you’re short selling yourself. You’re not going to, you’re not going to get to make the kind of impact that God intended for you to, or you possibly could.Dave Ferguson — So, I mean, Let me give you a quick example, so it becomes real tangible.Dave Ferguson — So two weeks ago, I was in Long Beach, California, and I ran into Matt Larson. Matt’s a guy who did a leadership residency with us probably, man, it’s been a long time ago now, 15 years ago. So he basically came, spent a year with us at Community, really sharp leader, but he didn’t really understand how to multiply. And we kind of helped him understand how to do that. Dave Ferguson — So he does that, goes back to Ventura, California, plants Anthem Church, and they’ve planted 15 churches. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Dave Ferguson — So think about this and this this. And I don’t know how you keep score, but this is how I keep score with my own, how am I making a difference?Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — So like even like if I’m taking a day off in Chicago… Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — …Matt’s still working in Ventura, California, and he’s planting churches. Rich Birch — Right. Amazing.Dave Ferguson — And I, you know, you’ve heard me probably say like my favorite quote from Bob Buford, my fruit grows in other people’s trees.Dave Ferguson — That’s what multiplication does. Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — Instead of just having one tree, you get a whole orchard. Dave Ferguson — Or Troy McMahon, who’s one of my best friends.Dave Ferguson — My wife’s getting ready to go to Kansas City to see his wife in just a few hours here.Dave Ferguson — And I mean, again, probably 15 years ago, they took 25 people who moved from Chicago to Kansas City. We blessed them and sent them with some money. They’ve gone to multiple locations.Dave Ferguson — They’ve started four networks there in Kansas City and have probably planted somewhere between 60 and 70 churches.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s amazing.Dave Ferguson — I mean, again, if I can say it this way, like I count that.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — I’m just telling people. So if you just want to kind of focus on just your thing, you will never, ever make the kind of impact you can if you invest in multiplication of multiplying other leaders.Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — And the other thing, so one, it’s in your best interest because you got this game not to make money. None of us are making any money, right?Rich Birch — Right. Sure. Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — You got this game because you’re like, this is the best way I can make a difference. And if you’re not doing multiplication, you’re short selling yourself.Dave Ferguson — But let me add one more thing.Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — It’s also how the mission gets accomplished. I mean, if you went into Acts 1:8, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth, and Jesus said, okay, here four more guys.Dave Ferguson — Last time, before I leave, i want to shoot here’s here’s the mission, Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends of the earth. The only way that that’s going to happen is if there’s a movement, and movement does not happen unless there’s multiplication.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. Yeah, and there’s, ah you know, one of the things I appreciate about kind of the the you and the broader exponential movement, I think you’ve helped really sharpen this conversation, tighten this up and get clarity for us, which I think is is positive.Rich Birch — And, you know, I bump into a lot of churches that are struggling, a lot of teams that are struggling with getting their their staff to be Ephesians 4 type people, people that are equipping others, that are multiplying others, that they, and there’s an interesting connection between these two, right? Somewhere we thought, oh, you could reach a bunch of people, but not actually equip anyone, which is so strange, right? It’s a strange, and actually there’s only a tiny fraction of churches that are actually multiplying today.Rich Birch — Most are only doing addition. I think this this thinking is one of the ways I think you’ve helped us sharpen this up. Why do you think that math is so stuck and kind of unpack that, help us understand, you know, the kind of the problem we’re trying to attack here.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I think one of the things you’re referencing, so I casually talked about the 16% mission. Let me back up.Dave Ferguson — We want to see 16%, and I know your audience is bigger than the United States, but in the U.S., that’s where our exponential U.S.’s focus is. We want to see 16% of all churches in the U.S. become reproducing or multiplying churches. And that means that they’ve ever planted a church in the last three years.Dave Ferguson — When we first did the homework on this, it’s only about 4%. Now we’ve moved the needle in the last 10 years to 7%. Rich Birch — Amazing.Dave Ferguson — We think in the next five years, we can get to 10%. In the next 10 years, we can get to 16%. And 16% is kind of that tipping point. Where the of that tipping point, you get the right innovators and early adopters. They will convince the whole that this should be normative.Dave Ferguson — And that’s what we’re trying to do. So with that in mind, you’re right. So we’re still only at 7%. And I think the biggest… we’re stuck we’re stuck in an existing paradigm. We’re like fish swimming in water that um we think the best that we can do is grow a church. And I And I think candidly, here’s how I’d frame it up. I think most leaders wake up every morning asking the question, how can can grow my church?Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — How can I grow my church? And that’s a good question, but it’s not a great question. It’s not an Acts 1:8 question.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Dave Ferguson — It’s not the kind of question going allow you to maximize your impact, you know, where you’re sleeping in on a Saturday you’ve got a guy in Kansas City and you’ve got a guy in Southern California who’s planting churches. Okay.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — A better question is how do we multiply God’s kingdom? Rich Birch — So good.Dave Ferguson — And if and if we could get if we could get leaders to wake up every morning asking that question. Okay, and again, I and versus we, because it’s going to take us working together, not just grow, like addition, but actually multiply, multiplication, and not just my church, but actually God’s kingdom.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s going to make a huge difference in the kingdom. And I think, so when you get stuck in that kind of addition, like how do I grow my church, it impacts decisions you make about money… Rich Birch — Yep. Dave Ferguson — …because you’re going to go, oh, I need to keep that here. So we can you know add another you know and add another wing to our building versus like, oh, guess what? Maybe if I so if i sent that money to you know this church plant, it’s going to result in 70 churches in Kansas City.Dave Ferguson — I mean, it’s highly leveraged like venture spiritual venture capital is what it is. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — It implements the decisions we make about staff. You know, we want to hold on to our best staff instead of developing them. And then some of them who actually have the capability of starting other churches and even networks, blessing them and sending them out and going like, yeah, I’m a spiritual father and these are my kids. I’m cheering them on. Dave Ferguson — So I think that’s that’s, we’re kind of stuck in this paradigm and it’s not a biblical one, but it is a paradigm that we’re stuck in.Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. And, you know, I’ve similarly been with a lot of leadership teams where we’re in the kind of growth conversation. And I’ll come at that from ah kind of the almost the opposite end, but you end in the same place, which you end up saying, like, this box is not big enough to contain the number of people that your church is hoping to reach.Rich Birch — Like we can’t build a box big enough to do that.Rich Birch — I don’t care how much money, I don’t care how good you are at fundraising, you can’t do that. So we have to multiply. If you really think that we are trying to reach and make an impact in our community, if there’s so many churches say, we’re for whatever city we’re in, we’re for Chicago, we’re for whatever.Rich Birch — If you’re really for that, then you have to be by definition for multiplication and for other churches and for seeing, you know, this thing multiplying out. We can’t, we can’t get them all to come here. That’s never going to work. That’s just, it doesn’t work at all.Dave Ferguson — And here’s thing you can, though, do. I mean, you’re right. If it’s just about their butts in your seats, whatever. But if it’s about you bringing them and equipping them and then sending them out, oh, that’s highly leveraged. And that could be a really good use of a building or facility.Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. That’s good. So, so much of this conversation, you know, I want to tap in your expertise. We’ve got a lot of lot of executive pastors listening in. You know, you have been in the one of the multiple seats you’ve sat in has been the kind of lead pastor seat. And let’s talk to some XPs from your perspective as as a you know a lead pastor around this area.Dave Ferguson — Oh, good. Those are the people actually the stuff done. They’re not just the top. These are the executors.Rich Birch — But let’s let’s think that through. So vision isn’t just about getting up on Sunday and preaching about it. You’ve actually led organizations that have done this stuff. And you know you’ve you’ve cast a compelling vision, but then have seen the organizations actually go out and make this stuff happen. So we think about it from our seat as an executive pastor. What is the executive pastor? Where do we actually come into play in this thing? What’s our piece of the puzzle? How can we help kind of move this thing forward at an operational level? You you named a couple of things, money, staffing. Help us think through that.Dave Ferguson — and And the assumption here is, okay, so the lead pastor is pro-multiplication, and now you have to execute the vision.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — I I think one of the things, grab a hold of how do we create ah a multiplication culture? Because if you can create a multiplication in culture, you will literally become, people in your church will become unconsciously competent.Dave Ferguson — I’m thinking of a real quick story. A friend of mine named Doug. Doug was a guy who was nominally involved at Community. All right. Long story short, only because his wife insisted he joined a small group that Sue and I were leading. Now I didn’t have an apprentice leader in that small group, which is which is not good, okay? That’s how you don’t create a culture.Dave Ferguson — But we went through six weeks and I went up to Doug and I said, I told him, I said, hey… And actually said in front of the whole group because he’s the kind of guy I could do this to. I said, hey, I know this group would like to continue, but we can’t continue unless we have an apprentice leader.Rich Birch — Nice.Dave Ferguson — And I said, Doug, will you be my apprentice leader?Rich Birch — That’s great. Dave Ferguson — He’s kind of like you. Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — Big guy with a bald head. Beads his sweat or popping on top of his head. He says, all right, I’ll do it, I’ll do it, I’ll do it. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — So he he agrees to be my apprentice leader. So I start meeting with him because the group was on Wednesdays. I’d meet with him on Tuesdays at Starbucks around 4 o’clock as he’d finish up work. And we’d kind of…And I remember his first question to me was like, hey, so if I’m going to be an apprentice leader, I should read the Bible, I guess, right?Dave Ferguson — I’m like, yeah, you probably should.Rich Birch — Yes, it’s a good starting point.Dave Ferguson — And so I told him how I how I do it. But over the course of the next 14 months or so, um you know, I basically apprenticed him through what we call the the five steps.Dave Ferguson — And here’s here’s the fun part of this story. OK, so Doug didn’t have much of a church background.Dave Ferguson — So he gets to the place where he thinks he’s ready to lead a group. And I think he’s ready, which people ask me a lot. how do you know when a leader is ready? I think it’s really that it’s that simple when they think they’re ready and you think they’re ready, they’re ready. And so I said, okay, why don’t you take over this group? It’ll be easy for me to go start a new group. You take… And he he said, okay. Dave Ferguson — I come back, like two or three weeks later, to Starbucks on Tuesday at 4 o’clock, sitting at the exact same table where we would always sit was Doug and his brand new apprentice, Tim.Rich Birch — Love it.Dave Ferguson — And so Doug was like unconsciously competent. He was like, oh, I thought I thought every church in America did that. I thought that’s how it works. I didn’t know I had a choice.Rich Birch — Yes, yes.Dave Ferguson — And if you create a culture of multiplication, that’s what will happen over and over and over again.Rich Birch — Yeah, I love that. Well, and and yeah, what a vivid picture. And, you know, we’ve got to move our our people and our systems towards, you know, continuing to multiply at every level. When you think about a church that’s stuck and it maybe is is just focusing on addition. They’re really in that, but they they have a desire to want to multiply.Rich Birch — Is your recommendation, or maybe what you’ve seen happen, the churches that have actually made that pivot towards multiplication, is it like a ground up thing? Like we start with, man, we’ve got to get all of our, you know, all of our team leaders get an apprentice, let’s go there. And then we’ll trickle up through the organization, which then leads to the conclusion. Oh, by the way, we’re going to have to, we’re going to multiply because we’ve kind of built this culture.Rich Birch — Or, is it better to go or or maybe there’s advantages to go one way or the other from the kind of the, hey, we’re going to declare this and that’s going to kind of pull us towards multiplication. Do you understand what I’m saying? Ground up or we cast a vision to pull towards it.Dave Ferguson — Yeah. And creating the culture.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah. In creating the culture, yeah.Dave Ferguson — If you haven’t, if you, if you don’t currently have that kind of culture, here’s what I would encourage leaders to do. I do think it does start at the top with like the lead pastor and the executive pastor.Dave Ferguson — And I encourage leaders at every level. I said, lead at the smallest level of your organization and lead at the largest level and you train and trust everybody in between.Rich Birch — Oh, that’s good. That’s good.Dave Ferguson — You want, and so for, I mean, all, whatever it was, 30 some years at Community, I always led a small group and I tried to always have an apprentice leader. So you need to do that.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get, okay. And I think there was a moment where you declare, Hey, this is who we are. And you need to decide if you want to buy in or not. You’re firm, but kind about that. Rich Birch — Yep.Dave Ferguson — And if you can get all of your staff, plus all the people that you consider as leaders and key influencers, which is probably somewhere around 16 to 20% of your total church. You get them bought into it.Dave Ferguson — Once you get them bought into it, and it’ll probably take you a year and they’re actually doing this stuff. Then you preach a sermon on it. Then you start casting vision on it. Then you declare it for the whole, because what will happen is that, again, kind of back to that innovators and early adopters. When they’re in the lobby and somebody comes them and goes like, hey, what do you think about this idea of apprenticeship? And we’re all going to have apprentices or multiply. They’ll already have been done it. They’ll have done it for a year.Dave Ferguson — And they’ll be like, oh, yeah, I think this is awesome. And that’s exactly what you want.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, it makes total sense. Yeah. And even what you’re doing.Dave Ferguson — I guess I’m questioning if you’re ready to make that shift, I wouldn’t preach a sermon on it first, because what they’re going to do is if you’re preaching a sermon on it and you’re not doing this stuff, what happens is you implicitly and almost accidentally create a culture that says, oh, I don’t actually have to do this stuff because the guy who’s casting the vision only talks about it and doesn’t actually do it. And so you create that culture, which is what we have a lot of.Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, I for sure I’ve seen a lot of that in, you know, in the churches I’ve been a part of, even with stuff like ah the fact that you, you know, were leading in a group, you know, I’ve I’ve seen a number, not necessarily the lead pastors I’ve worked for, but in churches where there’s like the lead pastor, they like elevate themselves out of that kind of thing. And they’re like Oh, I don’t need to interact with normal people. And, and that comes out, you know, I’ve, cause I’ve said it all the time to lead pastors. I’m like, even simply like, I would way rather you that just leak out of you that you’re, that you’re apprenticing a leader in a small group.Rich Birch — Then, then we have some big thing on why apprenticing is important because people will catch the the small little things, the little breadcrumbs here and there. They’ll catch that at a more powerful level than the big, let’s put a, let’s get a brand name, stick it on a wall, you know, kind of thing. That’s cool. That’s great.Dave Ferguson — It’ll but end up in your sermons, it’ll end sidebars, hallway conversations. Here’s one of my favorite examples. You know, Nicky Gumbel, right?Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — So Nicky’s the guy who previously was the vicar at Holy Trinity Brompton. He was really the guy who kind of really brought out Alpha… Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …which you might say is, I mean, right there with Billy Graham and the Apostle Paul… Rich Birch — Yeah, Oh, absolutely. 100%. Dave Ferguson — …greatest evangelistic tools that we’ve ever had.Rich Birch — Yes. 100%.Dave Ferguson — One of the things I love about Nicky is I don’t know how exactly how many years, it’s probably been 40 years. Every semester for 40 years, he always leads an Alpha course.Rich Birch — Yes. Yes.Dave Ferguson — There’s a reason they have such a strong culture and so powerful. Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — And that’s a big mistake. I mean, I think as, you know, we’ve planted church and starts to grow. And we’re trying to figure out, what can I do and what shouldn’t I do? And one of the first things that goes, oh well, I just won’t lead a small group anymore. I won’t lead a missional community anymore. Whatever is that smallest organizing principle is, you want to hold on to that. Train and trust everybody else to do everything in between. Rich Birch — That’s very good.Dave Ferguson — And as you continue to grow and scale, yeah, influence way out there. But but Ii’ll hold on to this too.Rich Birch — Yeah, continuing to shout out Nikki, I just think the world of Alpha… Dave Ferguson — I do too. Rich Birch — …and it’s been so effective for our our church. And I had an opportunity to interact with him right in the teeth of COVID. I was doing an interview with him. And he, we were talking about some stuff and i it really marked, it was one of those like you lean forward and you’re like, okay, that’s interesting.Rich Birch — He was talking about how he’s like, you know, for years, the meal is a big deal for for Alpha and like, you know, hospitality is a big deal for that. And he said, I was always critical of people that did Alpha online. He’s like, I was always critical of people doing it over Zoom and was like, I would say you can’t do it over Zoom. You can’t do it over Zoom.Rich Birch — And he said, obviously people did it over Zoom and I wasn’t stopping them, but I was, I poo-pooed it. Well, then well then COVID came. And he said exactly what you said. I’m still leading alpha courses and our Apha groups. And so I’m in an Alpha group. And what do you know? This is amazing. God works through this. Rich Birch — And so I was really struck by that, that he as a leader would have the humility to say, hey, I was wrong, but I’m enough in the weeds of this thing to understand, okay, what are the actual implications for our ministry? I think that’s a huge lesson for us to pull away.Dave Ferguson — Well, I mean, two things…Rich Birch — And yeah, I think it’s 35 million people they put through that. Yeah.Dave Ferguson — My thought is two things. One, is I remember that podcast. So thank you very much. I remember going, listening to him. And and and excuse me. And it shaped a lot of the ways I even thought about COVID from hearing from him on that.Dave Ferguson — But I think I think this the second thing is, I think what you were kind of replying to, you have to be in the weeds… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …in order to know how the next innovation is going to happen. I mean, if if he wasn’t doing that, he would have kept with his assumption, no, it’s not going to work and maybe made a lot of bad choices.Rich Birch — Right, right. And we would end up in ah yeah and a very tough spot today. In a lot of ways, that that ministry continues to accelerate… Dave Ferguson — Oh, yeah. Rich Birch — …or that movement really continues to accelerate ah you know in these years, which is amazing.Rich Birch — So one of the things let’s talk about, so one of the things I’ve heard you say is that you really build the case that multiplication has to be built on health, not on hustle. And you know there was a previous generation that was really valued like we wanted leaders. We didn’t want leaders that were burnt out, but we wanted them one step back from being burnt out. We wanted them like right there, right at the line. But what, you know, but I know that’s not what you’re advocating for. But it but I think sometimes our teams, our people, our cultures can look at this and say, this feels like one more thing to do.Rich Birch — So what why does this distinction of health, not hustle, how does that factor in when we’re thinking about actually trying to become a multiplying organization when we’re, you know, we’ve got lots of other stuff to carry as we’re thinking about it. Help us understand that.Dave Ferguson — My experience, particularly working with church planters and other leaders, is they aren’t afraid to hustle. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — And in fact, that’s our default position, that I that I will I can maybe outwork the next person. And they’re willing to do it for it for a good cause. But even though we are willing to that, it actually gives us the wrong result. Because if we only hustle more, if only work more, you’re not going to make the impact you could, like I’ve already described, if you’re multiplying more. So I am constantly encouraging leaders, don’t work more, multiply more. Don’t work more, multiply more. And that’s how you make the biggest impact. Dave Ferguson — The other part of that, which is really important, I kind of have a conviction. We knew that we need to try to do the Jesus mission the Jesus way.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — We want to do the Jesus mission, the Jesus way. And I think that has to do with, no, I’m going to try to i’m gonna try to be a great dad. I want to try to be a great husband. I want to try to be a good steward of this body that I have. I want to pay attention to what my thought life, I want to pay attention to my anxiety and and and and levels and and am I feeling depressed? I want to make sure I’m okay spiritually.Dave Ferguson — And I think if we’re doing those kinds of things, we’re checking what I call these four gauges, I think will be healthy leaders.Dave Ferguson — And here’s the axiom that I have kind of led by, especially over the last couple decades, is that you will reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yes. Right.Dave Ferguson — So if if if you want to reproduce unhealth, then be unhealthy. But like if you really want, if you want the, if you want the, the guys in your church to be really good dads. You don’t have to be a perfect dad, but just put in the effort and let them know that you’re also putting in the effort.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — If you want to be a you want people to be you know really good spouses, then try to be that yourself. Because you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. I really appreciate that you’re you know that you’re pressing on these issues. I think this is a a critical thing you know for us, and particularly as we, you know I’m in a phase of my ministry where looking on to like, okay, how am I handing this stuff off?Rich Birch — What am I doing to try to help the next generation? And man, I would love the next generation to, I think one of the things that particularly Gen Z leaders are attuned to is they seem to be naturally attuned to like, we’re not going to like drive over a cliff for this thing. We want to do this in a healthy manner. Rich Birch — And and you’re not obviously, you know, you’re highly productive. You get a lot done and Exponential is a highly productive organization. You do a lot. But we want to do it—I like that—you were saying, you know, the Jesus mission, in the Jesus way. That’s actually at the heart of your most recent book Multiplier. Rich Birch — You talk, you kind of referenced these four gauges. Can you unpack that a little bit more at a high level? Help us understand what are the four gauges? And what were you hoping with this book? Why, why another book? Why is this one? What are you hoping this accomplishes for churches?Dave Ferguson — I think there’s a lot of great content out there about personal health, emotional health, how to have a rule of life, that kind of stuff. And we and we need to avail ourselves to it. I think there’s also a lot of great stuff and some of it that I’ve helped contribute to around how do you multiply? How do you you know develop leaders? How do you hero making? All that kind of stuff.Dave Ferguson — What I tried to do in this book though is show how those are so interconnected. Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. Dave Ferguson — That if you really want to do this for a long time, and that’s how you make the biggest impact, it’s only going to come if you’re a healthy leader, because again, you reproduce who you are.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.Dave Ferguson — And so what we do is we kind of, we, we, we talk about the problem and the problem that all of us face, in the first couple of chapters, is what I call drift.Dave Ferguson — And we drift because…maybe frame it this way. I’ve never had a conversation with a young leader who tells me, hey, 15 years from now, here’s my dream: I hope I’m 50 pounds overweight and divorced and compromising my core convictions.Rich Birch — That’s so true.Dave Ferguson — I’ve never had that conversation. Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — But we read about it almost every week. And I sometimes share the story. I mean, I was in a small group with some of the most influential pastors, maybe in the world, but definitely in Chicago for about eight or nine years. If I tried to reassemble that group today, half the seats would be empty.Dave Ferguson — And I don’t think it’s, and I think it’s because they, they drifted and they unintentionally ended up someplace they never intended to be.Rich Birch — Right. Right.Rich Birch — Dave Ferguson — They didn’t intend to end up, you know, in a hotel room with a woman that wasn’t plan A, when they planted a church. Rich Birch — Right. Dave Ferguson — Or to create a toxic culture, which really benefited them more than other people i don’t think that was like the, the goal from the very beginning. Does that make sense? Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely.Dave Ferguson — And I think what happens is we incrementally, we drift a little bit of time until, you know, in a variety of ways, we end up someplace we never intended to be. So one of the things that I do, I’ll I'll just, maybe I’ll show you here too. I know, this is, this is, I’ll just show you. And I don’t, I know we’re not doing anything on video. I don’t think, but this is, this is kind of, this is my journal.Rich Birch — Yeah.Dave Ferguson — Oh, that’s one from like December. Wow. That’s old. There we go. There we go. That’s actually yesterday. And so like, I just write these four letters, RPMS in my journal almost every day.Dave Ferguson — And R stands for relational. How are things with Sue, the kids, my friends?Dave Ferguson — P stands for physical. How am I doing stewarding this body? For me, it’s a trip the fitness center or out running on the prairie path. Dave Ferguson — How am I doing mentally, which has to do with kind of stress or anxiety or thought life?Dave Ferguson — And then how am I doing spiritually? What’s going on between me and God? Dave Ferguson — And then so I just make a little gauge here and I kind of just, where am I? Where am I? And then I actually go ahead and give myself, I like to keep score. If we got executive pastors, they’ll like this. You should keep score.Rich Birch — Yeah, they like numbers. Stuff that ends up on spreadsheets. It’s good.Dave Ferguson — So you can see, like, so I gave myself a score for each of those on a scale of 1 to 10, then a composite, which was 5, which was actually down from 5.25 the day before. And I think that’s because, as you can kind of hear, I got a little bit of a cold, so I’m not feeling well.Dave Ferguson — And, but I, I try to do this every day. And I encourage leaders, those four gauges, relational, physical, mental, spiritual. If you’ll just spend four minutes every day…Rich Birch — That’s so good.Dave Ferguson — …reflecting on those four areas prayerfully, how am I doing relationally? How am I doing physically? How am I doing mentally? How doing spiritually? You’re going to drift. We all drift, but here’s the thing. You’re not going to go a whole month or a whole year or a decade and and suddenly wake up, you know, and someone’s dragging you into court and you’re going like, how in the world did I end up here?Rich Birch — Yeah, I think this is…Dave Ferguson — And so… Rich Birch — Yeah, I would just want to… Dave Ferguson — …it’s hopefully it’s a very, very practical tool for here’s how you can do this every day. And and let me throw this in Rich too, because I want to make sure I hit this. And then if you can do it in community… Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — …that’ll way mitigate how much you lie to yourself.Rich Birch — Yes.Dave Ferguson — t’s like if a small group or a missional community every week, just checking in or once a month with another group that you’re you’re working with, I think that if you do that, it’s not foolproof, but it’ll be a big, big, big help.Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah. The human, uh, human propensity for self-delusion is incredible, right? Like our ability to like become, to lie to ourselves, let alone other people is amazing. You know, I, I want to just honor you for, I think, you know, I, obviously I saw it Exponential this year where you’ve been rolling it out. I’ve, I’ve, I haven’t read the entire book yet, but I’ve read a bunch of it. And I really appreciate that at this phase in your, journey, you’re raising this flag, I think, and connecting it so, you know, integrally to the multiplier, the multiplication mission. I think that is so critically important because we, you know, we’ve seen those leaders who make a series of foolish, unwise decisions that ultimately end up in a tragic spot.Rich Birch — And oftentimes it’s like, I don’t know what to say to people. How do you avoid that? And I like that you have, you’ve put together a framework here to help us think that. Now, as you’ve rolled the book out to folks…Dave Ferguson — How old you how old are you, Rich?Rich Birch — 52.Dave Ferguson — 52. Rich Birch — Yes. Dave Ferguson — Okay. Like, I’m convinced God’s probably got at least another 20 years… Rich Birch — Sure. Dave Ferguson — …you know, and ah and in some ways it’ll probably be your highest impact years.Rich Birch — Yep. Yep.Dave Ferguson — But if one of these gauges goes way south and takes you out, like there’s 20 of the best years of difference-making that we don’t get from Rich Birch. And it’s not just Rich Birch. Every one of the people listening to the podcast. I mean, I think there’s a whole bunch of people that God goes like, no, I got 75 years or 80 years of difference making. And let’s do the whole run.Rich Birch — Yeah. No, I appreciate that. That’s why I think it’s, it’s I'm not doing a good way I’m not doing a good job articulating. I think it’s a gift that you’ve given to the church because you’re helping us actually attack this problem in a really super practical, good way that that I can see it making a huge difference.Rich Birch — And I would agree with you. I think what I realized after being however many decades in ministry, there’s like a real cumulative effect here that it’s like, you know, each decade, I thought things were great in my thirties and then I hit my forties and now I’m in my fifties.Rich Birch — I’m like, oh my goodness, there’s and and sometimes people will say, they’ll they’ll ask you know kind of questions like, you know hey, how do you basically, you know how do you do what you do or whatever? And a part of I’m like, well, you just stay in it. Like you just keep doing it, right? And stay in the game and stay plugged in and yeah.Dave Ferguson — And the and the longer your influence continues to grow, I mean, like, in the kindest, humble way, if Rich Birch emails somebody, you respond. Rich Birch — Right. Yeah, that’s kind.Dave Ferguson — Because I mean, you’ve put in so much time you mean now that you you’re able to get things done that quicker than you couldn’t before because people know who you are, they’re interested in what you’re doing, right?Rich Birch — Yeah. Yeah, it’s true.Dave Ferguson — And I think that’s true with all of us. Our influence will just continue to grow if we stay faithful to this.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s great. So I want to, I’m going to, we’re going to talk about where you can get the book in a minute, but just before we get there, of the four, this book’s been out now for a while and it’s out in the world. It’s, you know, as an author, I know that’s a very different experience. You go from writing and then it goes out there and then people react to it.Rich Birch — Are there any of those four gauges that you’ve been surprised by the reaction or you’ve noted the reaction? Like, oh, that’s interesting. I’m hearing from people or I’ve seen, you know, maybe it’s a conversation or that sort of thing that any four of those have kind of bubbled up in in discussion.Dave Ferguson — I think the one, I think that’s what surprised me so far in the conversation is how important the physical gauge, how, how underestimated it is and how important it is.Rich Birch — Oh, interesting. Tell me more.Dave Ferguson — I was just, I was just in a conversation this morning with somebody who’s telling me that he’s really been working on these four gauges and for him in the last year’s dropped 40 pounds. And he’s like, it has, it has really shifted my influence, my, my leadership.Dave Ferguson — He said, I just, I feel more confident walking into a room. And I, yeah, I think probably as Christian leaders, we probably downplay that one the most. And I'm I am surprised.Rich Birch — Right.Dave Ferguson — I’m not saying it’s the most important of the four… Rich Birch — No. Yeah. Dave Ferguson — …but I am surprised how important it is and the feedback I’m getting on it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I can see that. I can see that for sure.Dave Ferguson — Yeah, I mean we’re whole people.Rich Birch — Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, the, the days I ride that Peloton in the morning, I’m better at, I’m a better husband those days. I’m a better, you know, it’s, it just works out, which is, yeah, that’s really cool.Rich Birch — All right. So we want to, so when I, as I’ve been going through this, what I’ve been struck by is, man, I think this could be a real gift for our team’s to go through together. i think this could be a great tool for our staff teams. Maybe if I’m an executive pastor, it’s like, Hey, what if we went through this with our senior leaders first? And then maybe we roll it out to our teams or something like that. Where can people pick up copies of this book? Where do we want to send them online to get them? I’m assuming Amazon. Is there anywhere else we want to send them?Dave Ferguson — You know what? Let me give you two things that comes to mind. One is if they’re ready to make a commitment, say, hey, I want to be a multiplier. If you go exponential.org/multiplier, exponential.org/multiplier, there’s a place there where you can say, hey, I want to be a multiplier.Dave Ferguson — We’ll explain how you can be involved in meetups and cohorts and resource. We actually have a multiplier digital check-in. So you can actually do this online every day, that kind of stuff. So that’s one place that would be, I think, really fun.Dave Ferguson — But you’re right, um a lot of people are using it as a book to go over with their with their staff or with their teams or even their networks. And if they’re going to get, I think it’s like six or seven or more, maybe it’s a dozen, somewhere in that neighborhood, you’re going to get more than few, go ahead and email me and I’ll tell you you get a bulk discount. And that’s dave@exponential.orgRich Birch — Great.Dave Ferguson — dave@exponential.org – Say, hey, I’m going to do this with my team. How can I get a bulk discount? And my assistant, Sarah or me, will get back to you and let you know how you can do that.Rich Birch — Yes, that’s fantastic. Friends, I don’t say this with every author that comes on, but I really, I would highly endorse, would recommend that you do that. I think this could be the book you should pick up maybe this summer, read it by yourself, read it with a small group of people. I do think this could be, I think it’s a critical resource. I think it’s, I think this is more than just like, hey, it’s another book. You know, I think there’s a real potential here for this to shift the conversation in a really positive way in the broader church. So I would love more people to pick it up. Well, Dave, this has been incredible. I really appreciate you being here today. Any final words as we kind of land today’s episode?Dave Ferguson — I would probably come back to, if I was going leave people with one thought, is just just remember that you’re going to reproduce who you are and what you do.Rich Birch — So good. Appreciate you, Dave. Thanks so much. We want to send people to exponential.org. Is there anywhere else online we want them to go if they want to track with you or with the movement or anything like that?Dave Ferguson — I mean um I’m on most of the socials, so you can follow me there. DaveFerguson.org, DaveFerguson.org, if, you know, for some reason you want me to speak or do something or find other books that I’ve written.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s great. Thanks for being here today, sir. Appreciate that.Dave Ferguson — Hey, my pleasure.

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What if your greatest leadership achievement isn't what you accomplish yourself - but the leaders you develop who continue multiplying long after you're gone? In this episode of Leaders of Transformation, Nicole Jansen welcomes back leadership development expert and bestselling author Mac Lake to discuss his latest book, Super Multiplier. What does it take to build a leadership legacy that extends far beyond your own influence? Mac reveals how great leaders intentionally develop leaders who go on to develop other leaders – creating a multiplication effect that can impact organizations for generations. Drawing from decades of experience building leadership pipelines, Mac shares the mindset shifts and practical habits leaders need to intentionally develop others and create a culture of multiplication. Together, Nicole and Mac explore why most leadership development efforts fail, the hidden beliefs that prevent leaders from investing in others, and how to identify and unlock the potential already sitting within your organization. Whether you're leading a business, ministry, nonprofit, or team, this conversation will challenge you to think beyond leadership training and embrace leadership multiplication that lasts for generations. What We Discuss in this Episode Why leadership gaps are solved by developing people, not simply finding people The hidden mindsets that prevent leaders from developing others Why most organizations rely on the ineffective "wait and hope" leadership strategy The difference between leadership training and leadership transformation Why mindset must change before skill set can change How limiting beliefs hold emerging leaders back from reaching their potential What it means to "mine for the gold" in people How great leaders identify and cultivate strengths in others Lessons from Jesus' model of leadership development and multiplication Why leadership multiplication is more powerful than leadership addition How to develop leaders who can develop other leaders Why leadership development requires intentionality more than time Practical ways to develop leaders during everyday work activities How modeling, practice, and debriefing accelerate leadership growth Why failure is one of the greatest tools for leadership development The 4T Framework: Think, Try, Talk, and Train How leaders can continue growing by building on their strengths The importance of creating a replicable leadership development process What it means to build leadership four generations deep How to create a lasting leadership legacy within your organization Highlights  00:00 – Why Leadership Development Often Fails 02:30 – Leadership Gaps Aren't Solved by Finding People 06:00 – The Mindsets That Limit Leadership Multiplication 10:00 – Why Mindset Comes Before Skill Set 13:00 – The Problem with the "Wait and Hope" Strategy 16:00 – Leadership Training vs. Leadership Transformation 20:00 – Mining for the Gold in People 24:00 – What Jesus Teaches Us About Developing Leaders 29:00 – Why Leaders Think They Don't Have Time 33:00 – Everyday Opportunities to Develop Future Leaders 38:00 – Failure as Fertilizer for Growth 42:00 – The Power of Modeling and Debriefing 46:00 – How to Identify Your Next Growth Area 50:00 – The 4T Framework for Leadership Development 54:00 – How to Multiply Leaders Four Generations Deep 58:00 – Building a Leadership Legacy That Lasts Episode Show Notes and Links to Mac Lake's Books and Resources: https://leadersoftransformation.com/podcast/leadership/super-multipliers-how-to-multiply-great-leaders-four-generations-deep-with-mac-lake/ Check out our complete library of episodes and other leadership resources here: https://leadersoftransformation.com ________