Podcasts about munther

La W conversó con Munther al-Hayek, portavoz de Fatah en Gaza, el partido que lidera la Autoridad Nacional Palestina y que gobierna Cisjordania, facción rival de Hamás.

Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian pastor, theologian, author, and activist. He has an MA from Westminster Theological Seminary and a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies. He pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College and the author of several books including the recently released: Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Palestinian Christian Theologian, Director of Bethlehem Institute of Peace and Justice at Bethlehem Bible School, and author of “Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza,” Rev. Munther Isaac, shares his analysis about the latest in Gaza and why it's time for people of faith to act with courage.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/tavis-smiley--6286410/support.

This episode, we are joined by Rev. Dr. Muther Isaac, Director of the Bethlehem Institute for Peace and Justice—a project of the Bethlehem Bible College—and Pastor of the Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem. Rev. Dr. Munther is the author of The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope and his new book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza (available now). We'd love to hear your thoughts. Thread or Insta Lisa @lisasharper or to Freedom Road @freedomroad.us. We're also on Substack! So be sure to subscribe to freedomroad.substack.com. And, keep sharing the podcast with your friends and networks and letting us know what you think! www.threads.net/@lisasharper www.threads.net/@freedomroad.us freedomroad.substack.com

In this episode, Word&Way President Brian Kaylor talks with Rev. Munther Isaac, pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem, about his forthcoming book Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza. He also talks about Donald Trump's plan to "take over" Gaza, the importance of using the terms "genocide" and "apartheid," and why U.S. churches need to repent from the theology of empire. You can watch a video version of this conversation here. Note: Don't forget to subscribe to our award-winning e-newsletter A Public Witness that helps you make sense of faith, culture, and politics. And order a copy of Baptizing America: How Mainline Protestants Helped Build Christian Nationalism by Brian Kaylor and Beau Underwood. If you buy it directly from Chalice Press, they are offering 33% off the cover price when you use the promo code "BApodcast."

Welcome to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Madang Podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.⁠⁠⁠Madang is the outdoor living room of the world. Here, we invite you to sit and tune into unreserved, remarkable conversations with renown authors, leaders, public figures and scholars on religion, culture and everything in-between. This has been a dream of mine for many years and now it is a reality. Please join me at Madang Podcast hosted by the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Christian Century⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.⁠This is the 45th Episode with Dr. Munther Isaac on his book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza (Eerdmans, 2025). Dr. Isaac is a Palestinian Christiantheologian who serves as pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He served as the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College and is now the Director of the BethlehemInstitute of Peace and Justice. He is the author of several books,  From Land to Lands, from Eden to the RenewedEarth, The Other Side of the Wall and Christ in the Rubble. Today, he is with us today to share his latest book, genocide, nakba, settler colonialism, theology of empire, theology of genocide and so much more.I am grateful to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Homebrewed Christianity⁠⁠⁠⁠, Eerdmans and PANAAWTM ⁠⁠⁠for sponsoring this episode. Please join Homebrewed Christianity's online class, ⁠Rise of Bonhoeffer⁠. Please read some of the latest Eerdmans Books that are impacting the world. Please attend and support PANAAWTM.Please check out their websites for their work, and events and to donate. Please reach out to me if you would like to sponsor the next episode of Madang podcast. Or simply ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠support me on my ⁠substack.

In this episode, we speak with Munther Isaac about the history of the Israel-Palestine conflict, and what led to the current crisis in Gaza. Munther, a Palestinian pastor and theologian, reflects on the intersection of theology and politics, and what faith, hope and love might mean in the face of such terrible suffering. Following the interview Nomad hosts Joy Brooks and Tim Nash reflect on the emotional response they've felt in the face of this crisis, the role Christian Zionism played in the faith they inherited and whether the bible could still have a place in their evolving spirituality when it's been so horribly misused.    Interview starts at 17m 50s Books, quotes, links → The creation of Nomad's thoughtful, wonderfully ad-free content is entirely funded by our equally thoughtful, wonderful listeners. Supporting us gives access to Nomad's online communities through the Beloved Listener Lounge, Enneagram Lounge and Nomad Book Club - as well as bonus content like Nomad Contemplations, Therapeutic Reflections and Nomad Revisited. If you'd like to join our lovely supporters head to our Patreon Page to donate and you may even be rewarded with a pen or Beloved Listener mug! If you're hoping to connect with others who are more local, you can also take a look at our Listener Map or join our Nomad Gathering Facebook page. Additionally, we share listener's stories on our blog, all with the hope of facilitating understanding, connection and supportive relationships.

✨Special thanks to our sponsors: Palestine Drinks Shop: https://www.palestinedrinksshop.com/ | @palestinedrinks_shop on Instagram Visualizing Palestine: https://visualizingpalestine.org/ | @visualizing_palestine on Instagram In this episode, we are joined by Reverend Dr. Munther Isaac, a Palestinian Christian pastor, theologian, academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and author. Reverend Dr. Munther reflects on his personal journey growing up in Palestine during the Intifadas, the challenges of faith under occupation, and the role of the church in the Palestinian liberation struggle. He shares insights from his upcoming book, his impactful "Christ Under the Rubble" display during Christmas, his unwavering commitment to spread awareness on Gaza today, and the religious diversity in Palestine.

The Last Christmas in Bethlehem: https://movietomovement.givingfuel.com/vpp-last-christmas-in-bethlehemFather Munther Isaac- https://bethbc.edu/Faculty/munther-isaac/ Order Jason's new book, The Great Campaign Against the Great Reset on Amazon https://a.co/d/6yiOk5sFollow Jason on Locals: https://jasonjones.locals.com/and on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/osu4491Visit Movie to Movement @ www.MovieToMovement.comAnd the Vulnerable People Project: www.TheGreatCampaign.org       

As we approach 2025, Israel continues to bomb, attack, and occupy the birthplace of Christmas. This year, church officials have shared that Christmas services across Palestine will be somber and highlight the call to end Israel's genocide in Gaza.Experts are even warning that Israel's genocide against Palestinians could lead to the elimination of the Palestinian Christians in the Gaza Strip. Before the genocide, there were between 1,000 - 1,700 Palestinian Christians in Gaza. Following Israel's relentless attacks, less than 600 Palestinian Christians remain.  Over the past year, Israel has destroyed the homes of nearly every Palestinian Christian family in Gaza. The majority of the Palestinian Christians continue to take shelter in the Holy Family Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of Saint Porphyrius, both in Gaza City.  Israel has repeatedly bombed both churches.In this episode, Diana Buttu spoke with Rev. Dr. Isaac about Israel's increasing attacks on the Palestinian Christian community throughout all of Palestine, including the West Bank and Gaza. They discussed how these attacks are a part of Israel's broader genocidal campaign and objective to ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their land.In a recent interview, Rev. Isaac said Israel has created “completely unlivable” conditions for Palestinians in the West Bank. He also posted a photo of the Israeli army building an additional checkpoint cutting off the city of Bethlehem from other key Palestinian cities. He described the photo with the caption: “Another gate installed by the Israeli military at the entrance of our town (and on the way to my kids' school). Bethlehem - like the rest of the West Bank - has become a parcel of isolated fragmented areas. “Oh little town of Bethlehem” is “Oh little besieged Bethlehem.” Thank you for tuning into This is Palestine, the official podcast of The IMEU! For more stories and resources, visit us at imeu.org.Stay connected with us: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theimeu/Twitter: https://twitter.com/theIMEUFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/theIMEU/For more insights, follow our host, Diana Buttu, on: Twitter: https://twitter.com/dianabuttu

Today, our guest is Munther Isaac, Academic Dean of Bethlehem Bible College and pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. Munther's family have been shepherds in the same hills as the shepherds who heard from the angel of God that first Christmas. And although the world is fighting to dehumanize the Palestinian people and the people in Gaza, the words of the angel are still true. Jesus is good news for all people. Every human is made in the image of God and is worthy of love, dignity, and life. You know, when you are at a distance, it is easy to get caught up in the headlines and the latest violence. But we need to go deeper to see what is happening. And that's what we are doing today. Reverend Munther takes us back through the history, showing how this conflict has roots going back decades. It didn't just start with October 7th. Munther calls us to see the humanity in all the people caught up in this. He shares a haunting poem by a Palestinian professor killed in the violence - a man who wanted his death to bring hope, not vengeance. It's a powerful reminder that behind the headlines, there are real people, with dreams and fears just like our own. This is a conversation that won't let you look away. But it also opens up a new way of seeing - one rooted in the radical compassion of Jesus, who calls us to love even our enemies. This Advent, Christ is still in the rubble. He sees the children, the women, the men of Gaza and Palestine with love and compassion. Will we? Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor, theologian, and writer, known for his role as the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and as the academic dean at Bethlehem Bible College. He is also the director of the Christ at the Checkpoint conferences and has been a vocal advocate for peace and reconciliation in the region. His work often intertwines faith with the political realities of life in Palestine.Munther's Book:Christ in the RubbleJoin Our Patreon for Early Access and More: PatreonConnect with Joshua: jjohnson@allnations.usGo to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or Threads at www.facebook.com/shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.instagram.com/shiftingculturepodcast/https://twitter.com/shiftingcultur2https://www.threads.net/@shiftingculturepodcasthttps://www.youtube.com/@shiftingculturepodcastConsider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below Support the show

From December 23, 2023: "This Advent, while global Christians prepare to commemorate the arrival of the Prince of Peace, our Palestinian kin in Gaza suffer unthinkable violence. Their cries for deliverance, echoing those of two millennia ago, seem to be falling unheard in the United States. To see their pain and hear their cries, US Christians must move beyond information to transformation...from webinar to worship. Listen in on the live-streamed worship gathering guided by Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac and his team at Christmas Lutheran Church in Bethlehem on 23 December 2023. Central to this liturgy of lament is the prophetic message that if Jesus was born today, he would be born "under the rubble." [Co-organized by Global Immersion, Christ at the Checkpoint Conference, Bethlehem Bible College, Churches for Middle East Peace and Evangelicals for Justice; supported and sponsored by kindred organizations]"

“I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this. … The hope is to survive. … It's really hard to think beyond that.” “We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide.” —Rev. Dr. Munther Issac, from the episode In the long history of conflict in the Middle East, both Jews and Palestinians have felt and continue to feel the existential threat of genocide. There remains so much to be spoken and heard about the experience of each side of this conflict. Today we're exploring a Palestinian perspective. Ministering in present-day Bethlehem, pastor, theologian, author, and advocate Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac joins Mark Labberton to reflect on the state of the conflict between Israel and Palestine, now a year following Isaac's bracing and sobering Christmas sermon, which was graphically represented in a sculptural manger scene of “Christ in the Rubble”—a crèche depicting the newborn Jesus amid the debris of Palestinian concrete, wood, and rebar. Together they discuss the experience, emotions, and response of Palestinians after fourteen months of war; the Christian responsibility to speak against injustice of all kinds as an act of faith; the contours of loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies in the Sermon on the Mount; what theology can bring comfort in the midst of suffering; just war theory versus the justice of God; the hope for survival; and the Advent hope that emerges from darkness. A Message from Mark Labberton Since October 7 of 2023, the world has been gripped by the affairs that have been unfolding in the Middle East between Israel and Palestine. And the world is eager, anxious, fearful, angry, and divided over these affairs. All of this is extremely complicated. And yet, as a friend said to me once about apartheid (I'm paraphrasing): It's not just that it's complicated (which it is), it's actually also very simple: that we refuse to live as Christian people. By that, he was not trying to form any sort of reductionism. He was simply trying to say, Are we willing to live our faith? Are we willing to live out the identity of the people of God in the context of places of great division and violence and evil? The Middle East is fraught historically with these debates, and certainly since the of the nation-state of Israel in 1947, there has been this ongoing anguish and understandable existential crisis that Jews have experienced both inside Israel and around the world because of the ongoing anti-Semitic hatred that seems to exist in so many places and over such a long, long period of time. Today we have the privilege of hearing from one of the most outstanding Christian voices, a Palestinian Christian pastor, Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, who is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He is also academic dean of the Bethlehem Bible College and a director of the highly acclaimed and influential conference called Christ at the Checkpoint. Munther in this last year has been the voice of Christian pleading. Pleading for an end to the war, pleading for the end to violence, pleading for the end to all of the militarism that has decimated parts of Israel, but also, and even more profoundly, the decimation that has leveled approximately 70 percent of all Palestinian homes in Gaza. This kind of devastation, the loss of forty-five thousand lives and more in Palestine, has riveted the world's attention. And Munther has been a person who has consistently spoken out in places all around the United States and in various parts of the world, trying to call for an end to the war and for a practice of Christian identity that would seek to love our neighbours, as Jesus taught us in the Sermon on the Mount, including sometimes also loving our enemies. The reason for the interview with Munther today is because of the one-year anniversary of Something that occurred in their church in Bethlehem, a crèche with a small baby lying in the Palestinian rubble. Seeing and understanding and looking at Christmas through the lens of that great collision between the bringer of peace, Jesus Christ, and the reality of war. In the meantime, we have a great chance to welcome a brother in Christ ministering with many suffering people in the Middle East, Jew and Gentile, and certainly Palestinian Christians. About Munther Isaac Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He now pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences. Munther is passionate about issues related to Palestinian theology. He speaks locally and internationally and has published numerous articles on issues related to the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians and Palestinian theology, holistic mission, and reconciliation. His latest book, Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza (get your copy via Amazon or Eerdmans), will appear in March 2025. He is also the author of The Other Side of the Wall, From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth, An Introduction to Palestinian Theology (in Arabic), a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic), and more recently he has published a book on women's ordination in the church, also in Arabic. He is involved in many reconciliation and interfaith forums. He is also a Kairos Palestine board member. Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a master in biblical studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies. Munther is married to Rudaina, an architect, and together they have two boys: Karam and Zaid. Follow him on X @muntherisaac. Show Notes The complexity of conflict in Palestine, Israel, and the Middle East “It's very simple: We refuse to live as Christian people.” Get your copy of Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza via Amazon or Eerdmans “Christ in the Rubble”—the one-year anniversary Munther Isaac's Christmas sermon, “Christ Under the Rubble” Video A Letter from all churches in Bethlehem: “No war” “ I can't believe how used we got to the idea of children being killed.” “We need to repent from apathy. We need to fight this normalization of a genocide that's taking place in front of the whole world to see.” Fourteen months of non-stop bombing “We're still feeling the anger.” ”We're still feeling the pain. We're still feeling the anger. And in a strange way, even more fearful of what is to come, given that it seems that to the world, Palestinians are less human.” “We couldn't go to church as normal.” “ It's our calling to continue as people of faith. To call for a change, and to call for things to be different in our world, even to call for accountability. And of course, I feel that my message should be first to the church, because I'm a Christian minister.  I don't like to lecture other religions about how they should respond. And I feel that the church could have done more.” Freedom to speak out: “You can't say these things in public.” Anti-Semitism and hatred toward Jews “ This kind of hatred and prejudice toward the Jews, which led to the horrors of the Holocaust, to me, it stems from the idea of ‘we're superior, we're better, we're entitled,' and blaming someone else. It comes from a position of righteousness and lack of humility. And certainly Jews have always been the victim of such hatred and blame.” “ At the same time, we as Palestinians cannot but wonder why is it us that we're paying the price for what happened on someone else's land? We're paying the price.” Loving God, loving neighbours, and loving enemies Jesus's politically charged environment Violence, just wWar theory, and “the justice of God” Using children as human shields for militants “ We cannot again bypass what Jesus was challenging us to do, even if it's not easy at all. It was Jesus who confirmed that loving God and loving neighbour summarizes everything. It wasn't like I came up with this novel thing, but I think we somehow found other ways to define what it means to be a Christian.” “What theology would bring comfort?” Matthew 25, judgment, and ministering to Jesus through “the least of these” “ ‘Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.' So he's clearly talking about victims of unjust structures, those who are thirsty for justice, those who are hungry.” Hopes for peace “I'm going to be very real, Mark. I think my hope is that by this time next year, we would have survived this.” “They estimate that 70 percent of the homes of two million people are destroyed.” Violence and destruction connected to a biblical argument about the legitimacy of Palestinian genocide The vulnerability of Israel and the vulnerability of Palestine “ And it's important to say these things. Because if we don't say them, then we … leave the task of imagination to those who are radical—to the extremists and exclusivists.” Munther Isaac's thoughts on the Zionist movement Advent reflections on the darkness at the centre, from which hope and life might emerge Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

This episode features a conversation between Reverend Munther Isaac and his former student Anthony Khair. The two Christian Palestinian men talk about how they are navigating grief and the immense loss in Gaza, while cultivating courage and resilience. Their conversation covers challenging truths and talks about the importance of language in this moment. Full transcript and show notes available here.

Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He now pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences.  He speaks locally and internationally and has published numerous articles on issues related to the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians and Palestinian theology, holistic mission and reconciliation. He is the author of The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope and the forthcoming Christ in the Rubble: Faith, the Bible, and the Genocide in Gaza which will release in March of 2025. Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a Master in Biblical Studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies. During our conversation, we discuss his childhood and family, why he chose pastoring over engineering, how they get through each and every horrific day in Palestine, what Americans should be doing right now to continue fighting for a Free Palestine, and so much more. ✅ Follow Munther on Instagram and Twitter. ✅ Preorder his new book coming out in March. --- ✊

Outline00:00 - Intro02:14 - Early steps in control05:36 - L1 control17:09 - Relay feedback systems24:32 - Agile robotic maneuvers29:31 - Abstractions and models41:59 - Causality49:35 - Markets and power grids1:00:20 - Role of network structure1:05:03 - Data, systems, and society1:16:17 - On writing1:22:57 - Cascaded failures in networks1:30:40 - Information design1:34:29 - Data markets1:42:27 - On economics and engineering1:48:18 - Systems thinking for societal problems1:58:24 - Advice to future studentsLinksWebsite: https://dahleh.lids.mit.edu/Data Nation podcast: https://tinyurl.com/2fxwxw2dS. Bhattacharyya: https://tinyurl.com/4z93f6n7Wonham's geometric control: https://tinyurl.com/mrxxkrv9B. Pearson: https://tinyurl.com/3vaz9yc9L1-optimal control: https://t.ly/NuXp8M. Vidyasagar: https://tinyurl.com/4z3zamh6Relay feedback systems: https://tinyurl.com/47tr23a4J. Tsitsilkis: https://tinyurl.com/yc7jmzm6Maneuver-based motion planning: https://tinyurl.com/bdduu2eaNutonomy: https://tinyurl.com/426s7stvFeedback control with noisy channels: https://tinyurl.com/2yschy2sBode's integral: https://tinyurl.com/2s47rjmpFundamental limits and molecular fluctuations: https://tinyurl.com/5n8k4maaVolatility of power grids: https://tinyurl.com/2vfpjfy7Bayesian learning in social networks: https://tinyurl.com/3mk9p486D. Acemoglu: https://tinyurl.com/3nphek9hA. Ozdaglar: https://tinyurl.com/yvdnddh9Cascade failures in networks: https://tinyurl.com/u2ckx94vA marketplace for data: https://tinyurl.com/esvbtprbSupport the showPodcast infoPodcast website: https://www.incontrolpodcast.com/Apple Podcasts: https://tinyurl.com/5n84j85jSpotify: https://tinyurl.com/4rwztj3cRSS: https://tinyurl.com/yc2fcv4yYoutube: https://tinyurl.com/bdbvhsj6Facebook: https://tinyurl.com/3z24yr43Twitter: https://twitter.com/IncontrolPInstagram: https://tinyurl.com/35cu4kr4Acknowledgments and sponsorsThis episode was supported by the National Centre of Competence in Research on «Dependable, ubiquitous automation» and the IFAC Activity fund. The podcast benefits from the help of an incredibly talented and passionate team. Special thanks to L. Seward, E. Cahard, F. Banis, F. Dörfler, J. Lygeros, ETH studio and mirrorlake . Music was composed by A New Element.

Today, we're talking with veteran activist and theologian, the one and only, Lisa Sharon Harper! The conversation covers:-        Lisa's journey finding Jesus outside of Whiteness and White evangelicalism-        The centrality of advocating for political and institutional policy change to our faith in Jesus-        How respecting the image of God in all people is the starting point for following Jesus to shalom-        The unavoidable job we have to speak truth, even when it is costly-        Where Lisa finds her hope and motivation to keep going-        And after that, we reflect on the interview and then talk all things Springfield, Ohio and Haitian immigrants.Mentioned on the episode:-            Lisa's website, lisasharonharper.com/-            Lisa's Instagram and Facebook-            The Freedom Road Podcast-            Lisa's books, Fortune and The Very Good Gospel-            Make a donation to The Haitian Community Support and Help Center in Springfield, Ohio via PayPal at haitianhelpcenterspringfield@gmail.com.Credits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Lisa Sharon Harper: I would lose my integrity if I was silent in the face of the breaking of shalom, which I learned in Bosnia and Croatia and Serbia, is built on earth through structures. It doesn't just come because people know Jesus. Two thirds of the people in the Bosnian war knew Jesus. The Croats were Christian and the Serbs were Orthodox Christian, and yet they killed each other. Massacred each other. Unfortunately, knowing Jesus is not enough if you have shaped your understanding of Jesus according to the rules and norms of empire.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra. We have a great one for you today. We are talking to veteran organizer and theologian Lisa Sharon Harper, someone who a lot of you probably know and who was pretty big in both of our individual kind of stories and development as people who care about faith and justice when we were younger people, which you will hear about as we talk to her. We are going to be talking to her about the centrality of our voting and policy choices to our witness as Christians, the importance of integrity and respecting the image of God in all people when making difficult decisions about where to spend your resources as an activist, where Lisa gets her hope and motivation and a whole lot more.And then after the interview, hear our reactions to it. And we're also going to be getting into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our weekly newsletter that we send out to our subscribers. This week it will be all about Haitian immigrants to America in Springfield, Ohio. You will want to hear that conversation. But before we get started, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Please friends, remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber to support this show and get access to everything that we do. We're creating media that centers personal and informed discussions on politics, faith and culture that helps you seek Jesus and confront injustice. We are resisting the idols of the American church by centering and elevating marginalized voices and taking the entirety of Jesus' gospel more seriously than those who narrow it to sin and salvation. The two of us have a lot of experience doing this individually and in community, and we've been friends [laughs] for a good long time. So you can trust it will be honest, sincere, and have some good things to say along the way.If you become a paid subscriber, you'll get access to all of our bonus content, access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats with me and Sy, and the ability to comment on posts and chat with us. So again, please go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber today.Sy Hoekstra: Our guest today, again, Lisa Sharon Harper, the president and founder of Freedom Road, a groundbreaking consulting group that crafts experiences to bring common understanding and common commitments that lead to common action toward a more just world. Lisa is a public theologian whose writing, speaking, activism and training has sparked and fed the fires of reformation in the church from Ferguson and Charlottesville to South Africa, Brazil, Australia and Ireland. Lisa's book, Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World, and How to Repair It All was named one of the best books of 2022 and the book before that, The Very Good Gospel, was named 2016 Book of the Year by The Englewood Review of Books. Lisa is the host of the Freedom Road Podcast, and she also writes for her Substack, The Truth Is…Jonathan Walton: Alright, let's jump into the interview.[The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Lisa Sharon Harper, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yay, I'm so excited to be here, and I'm here with a little bit of a Demi Moore rasp to my voice. So I'm hoping it'll be pleasant to the ears for folks who are coming, because I got a little sick, but I'm not like really sick, because I'm on my way, I'm on the rebound.Sy Hoekstra: So you told us you got this at the DNC, is that right?Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes, I literally, literally, that's like what, almost three weeks ago now?Sy Hoekstra: Oh my gosh.Jonathan Walton: You've got a DNC infection. That's what that is.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Lisa Sharon Harper: I have a DNC cough. I have a DNC cough, that's funny.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So before we jump into our questions, I wanted to take a momentary trip down memory lane, because I have no idea if you remember this or not.Lisa Sharon Harper: Okay.Sy Hoekstra: But in January of 2008, you led a weekend retreat for a college Christian fellowship that Jonathan and I were both in.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, I do remember.Sy Hoekstra: You do remember this? Okay.Lisa Sharon Harper: Absolutely.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Lisa Sharon Harper: I remember almost every time I've ever spoken anywhere.Sy Hoekstra: Wow, okay.Lisa Sharon Harper: I really do. And I remember that one, and I do remember you guys being there. Oh my gosh, that's so cool.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Lisa Sharon Harper: Okay.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: You remember that. That's amazing.Sy Hoekstra: No, no, no.Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Hang on. Wait a minute [laughter]. We don't just remember it. Because, so you gave this series of talks that ended up being a big part of your book, The Very Good Gospel.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: And you talked specifically about the difference between genuine and pseudo-community and the need to really address each other's problems that we face, bear each other's burdens, that sort of thing. And you did a session, which I'm sure you've done with other groups, where you split us up into racial groups. So we sat there with White, Black, and Latine, and Asian, and biracial groups, and we had a real discussion about race in a way that the community had absolutely never had before [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: And it actually, it is the opening scene of Jonathan's book. I don't know if you knew that.Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God, I didn't know that.Jonathan Walton: It is.Lisa Sharon Harper: Which one?Jonathan Walton: Twelve Lies.Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow, I didn't know that. Oh my gosh, I missed that. Okay.Sy Hoekstra: So it was a… Jonathan put it before, it was a formative moment for everybody and a transformative moment for some of us [laughter] …Lisa Sharon Harper: Oooooo, Oh my goodness.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: …in that we learned a lot about ourselves and what we thought about race, what other people thought about race. I will tell you that in the five minutes after the session broke up, like ended, it was the first time that my now wife ever said to me, “Hey, you said something racist to me that I didn't like.” [laughs] And then, because of all the conversation we just had, I responded miraculously with the words, “I'm sorry.” [laughter].Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God!Sy Hoekstra: And then we went from there.Lisa Sharon Harper: Miraculously [laughs]. That's funny.Sy Hoekstra: So I have lots of friends that we can talk about this session with to this day, and they still remember it as transformative.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my Gosh. Wow.Sy Hoekstra: All of that, just to lead into my first question which is this, a lot of people in 2016 started seeing kind of the things about White evangelicalism that indicated to them that they needed to get out. They needed to escape in some way, because of the bad fruit, the bad political fruit that was manifesting. You saw that bad fruit a long time ago.Lisa Sharon Harper: A whole long time ago.Sy Hoekstra: You were deep in the Republican, pro-life political movement for a little bit, for like, a minute as a young woman.Lisa Sharon Harper: I wouldn't… here's the thing. I wouldn't say I was deep in. What I would say is I was in.Sy Hoekstra: Okay.Lisa Sharon Harper: As in I was in because I was Evangelical, and I identified with itbecause I was Evangelical and because my friends identified with it. So I kind of went along, but I always had this sense I was like standing on the margins looking at it going, “I don't know.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: You know what I mean? But I would say literally for like a minute, I was a believer. Maybe for like, a year.Sy Hoekstra: But my question then is, what were the warning signs? And then, separately from what were the warning signs that you needed to get out, who or what were the guiding lights that showed you a better way?Lisa Sharon Harper: My goodness. Wow. Well, I mean, I would say that honestly… Okay, so I had a couple of conversations, and we're talking about 2004 now. So 2004 also, this is right after 2000 where we had the hanging chads in Florida.Sy Hoekstra: Yep.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Lisa Sharon Harper: And we know how important voting is, because literally, I mean, I actually believe to this day that Gore actually won. And it's not just a belief, they actually counted after the fact, and found that he had won hundreds more ballots that were not counted in the actual election, in Florida. And so every single vote counts. Every single vote counts. So then in 2004 and by 2004, I'm the Director of Racial Reconciliation for greater LA in InterVarsity, I had done a summer mission project that wasn't really mission. It was actually more of a, it was a pilgrimage, actually. It was called the pilgrimage for reconciliation. The summer before, I had done the stateside pilgrimage. And then that summer, I led students on a pilgrimage through Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia asking the question, “How is shalom broken? And how is shalom built? How is it made?”And through both of those successive summer experiences, it became so clear to me, policy matters, and it matters with regard to Christian ethics. We can't say we are Christian and be, in other words, Christ-like if we are not concerned with how our neighbor is faring under the policies coming down from our government. We just can't. And as Christians in a democracy, specifically in America, in the US where we have a democracy, we actually have the expectation that as citizens, we will help shape the way that we live together. And our vote is what does that our vote when we vote for particular people, we're not just voting for who we like. We're voting for the policies they will pass or block. We're voting for the way we want to live together in the world.So in 2004 when I come back from Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, I'm talking with some of my fellow staff workers, and I'm saying to them, “We have to have a conversation with our folks about voting. I mean, this election really matters. It's important. ”Because we had just come through the first few years of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Like Iraq had just erupted a couple years before that, Afghanistan the year before that. And we were seeing young men coming back in body bags and this war, which had no plan to end, was sending especially young Black men to die because they were the ones…and I know, because I was in those schools when I was younger, and I alsohad been reading up on this.They're the ones who are recruited by the Marines and the Army and the Navy and the Air Force, especially the army, which is the cannon fodder. They're the ones who are on the front lines. They are recruited by them more than anybody else, at a higher degree than anybody else, a higher percentage ratio. So I was saying we have to have a conversation. And their response to me in 2004 was, “Oh, well, we can't do that, because we can't be political.” I said, “Well, wait, we are political beings. We live in a democracy.” To be a citizen is to help shape the way we live together in the world, and that's all politics is. It's the conversations we have and the decisions that we make about how we are going to live together.And so if we as Christians who have an ethic passed down by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, and we have the 10 Commandments, which is like the grand ethic of humanity, at least of the Abrahamic tradition. Then, if we don't have something to say about how we should be living together and the decisions we make about that every four years, every two years, even in off year elections, then what are we doing here?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: Who are we? Like, what is this faith? What is this Christian faith? So that was my first real rub, because I had experienced the pilgrimage to reconciliation. I had seen, I had rolled through. I had walked on the land where the decisions that the polis, the people had made, had killed people. It had led to the death of millions of people. Thousands of people in some case. Hundreds of people in other cases. But when coming back from Bosnia, it was millions. And so I was just very much aware of the reality that for Christians, politics matters because politics is simply the public exercise of our ethics, of our Christian ethic. And if we don't have one, then we're… honest, I just, I think that we are actually turning our backs on Jesus who spent his life telling us how to live.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: And so that was, for me, literally that conversation with that staff worker was kind of my first, “Aha! I'm in the wrong place.” I needed to learn more about how this public work works. How do systems and structures and policies and laws work? So that's what actually brought me, ended up bringing me a year later, to Columbia University and getting my master's in human rights. And I knew, having had the background in the two pilgrimages and the work that we did on the biblical concept of shalom at the time, which was nascent. I mean, it was for me, it was, I barely, really barely, understood it. I just knew it wasn't what I had been taught. So I started digging into shalom at that time, and then learning about international law and human rights and how that works within the international systems.I came out of that with a much clearer view, and then continued to work for the next 13 years to really get at how our Christian ethics intersect with and can help, and have helped shape public policy. And that has led me to understand very clearly that we are complicit in the evil, and we also, as Christians, other streams of our faith are responsible for the redemption, particularly in America and South Africa and other places in the world.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So I think I'm placing myself in your story. So I think we intersected in that 2005, 2008 moment. So I've traveled with you.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, we had a good time. It was so much fun.Jonathan Walton: We did. It was very good. So getting to follow, watch, learn, just for me, has been a huge blessing. First with the book, with New York Faith and Justice, reading stuff with Sojourners, grabbing your books, gleaning different wisdom things for… it's something that I've wondered as I'm a little bit younger in the journey, like as you've operated in this world, in the White Evangelical world, and then still White Evangelical adjacent, operating in these faith spaces. And now with the platform that you have, you've had to exercise a lot of wisdom, a lot of patience and deciding to manage where you show up and when, how you use your time, how you manage these relationships and keep relationships along the way. Because you didn't drop people.Lisa Sharon Harper: I have. I have dropped a few [laughter]. I want to make that really clear, there is an appropriate space to literally shake the dust.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: I think what I have not seen you do is dehumanize the people in the places that you left.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, thank you. Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And that's hard to do, because most people, particularly my generation, we see the bridge we just walked across, and we throw Molotov cocktails at that thing [laughter].Lisa Sharon Harper: Y'all do. Your generation is like, “I'm out! And you're never gonna breathe again!” Like, “You're going down!” I'm like, “Oh my God…” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It's quite strong with us [laughs]. And so could you give any pieces of wisdom or things you've learned from God about navigating in that way. Things that we can and folks that are listening can hold on to as things shift, because they will shift and are shifting.Lisa Sharon Harper: They always shift, yeah, because we are not living on a book page. We're living in a world that moves and is fluid, and people change, and all the things. So I think that the best advice that I got, I actually got from Miroslav Volf. Dr. Miroslav Volf, who is a professor at Yale University, and he wrote the book that really kind of got me into, it was my first book that I ever read that was a book of theology, Exclusion&Embrace. And when we went to Croatia, we met with him. We met with him in the city of Zadar on the beach [laughs], literally over lunch. It was just an incredible privilege to sit down with him. And I've had many opportunities to connect with him since, which has been a privilege again, and just a joy.But he said to our group, our little InterVarsity group. And that's not at all to minimize InterVarsity, but we had a real inflated sense of who we were in the world. We thought we were everything, and we thought we were right about everything. And so here we are going through Croatia, which had just experienced a decade and a little bit before, this civil war. And it wasn't really a civil war, it was actually a war of aggression from Serbia into Croatia, and it was horrible. And it turned neighbor against neighbor in the same way that our civil war turned neighbor against neighbor. So literally, these towns, you literally had neighbors killing each other, you just were not safe.So basically, think Rwanda. The same thing that happened in Rwanda, around the same time had happened in Croatia. And so Miroslav is Croatian, and the lines by which things were drawn in Croatia was not race, because everybody was White. So the lines that they drew their hierarchy on was along the lines of religion. It was the Croats, which were mostly Catholic, mostly Christian. Some not Catholic, they might have been Evangelical, but they were Christian. And then you had the Bosniaks, which were Muslim, and the Serbs, which were Orthodox. So that was the hierarchy. And when you had Milošević, who was the president of Yugoslavia, who was trying to keep that Federation together, Yugoslavia was like an amalgamation of what we now understand to be Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia.So he was trying to keep all of that together, and when he then crossed the lines, the boundary between Serbia and Croatia and invaded and just began to kill everybody, and the Serbs then went to his side, and the Croats went over here, and the Bosniaks were caught in the middle, and people just died. And they chose sides and they killed each other. And so we sat down to do lunch with Miroslav Volf, and in that context, interfaith conversation was critical. It was and is, it continues to be. One of the main markers of where you find healing, it's where you find interfaith conversation in Croatia and also Bosnia and Serbia. And so we, in our little Evangelical selves, we're not used to this interfaith thing.We think of that as compromising. We think of that as, “How can you talk to people and gain relationship with and actually sit down and…?” And he was challenging us to study this scripture with other people of other faiths, and study their scriptures. He was like, “Do that.” And so our people were like, “How can you do that and not compromise your faith?” And here's what he said. He said, “It's easy. Respect. It's respect, respecting the image of God in the other, the one who is not like me. That I, when I sit down and I read their scriptures with them, allowing them to tell me what their scriptures mean.” Not sitting in a classroom in my Evangelical church to learn what the Muslim scriptures say, but sitting down with Imams to understand what the Muslim scriptures say and how it's understood within the context of that culture.That's called respect for the image of God. And there's no way, no way for us to knit ourselves together in a society, to live together in the world without respect. That's baseline. That's baseline.Jonathan Walton: As I'm listening, I'm thinking, “Okay, Lisa made choices.” She was like, “We are gonna not just do a trip. We're gonna do a trip in Croatia.” And so as you're going on these trips, as you were having these conversations, you're making choices. There's decisions being made around you, and then you get to the decision making seat. And how that discernment around where to place your energy happens. So something that's at the top of mind for me and many people listening is Palestine.Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh, yeah.Jonathan Walton: So how did you decide at this moment that, “Hey,this is where my energy and time is coming. I'm going to Christ at the Checkpoint. I'm going to talk with Munther. I'm going to be there.”How did that rise to the surface for you?Lisa Sharon Harper: It's funny, because I have, really have been advised, and in the very first days of the conflict, I was advised by some African American leaders, “Don't touch this. Don't do it. You're going to be blacklisted.”Jonathan Walton: I heard the same thing, yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: “Don't do it. You're gonna find you're not invited to speak anywhere.” Da da da da. Sometimes these decisions are just made to say, “I am going to act in the world as if I don't know what the repercussions are, and I'm just going to do the thing, because my focus is not focused on the repercussions.” I mean, in some ways, in that way, I do think that my constitution is the constitution of a warrior. Warriors go to battle knowing that bullets are flying all around them, and they just choose to go forward anyway. Somebody who cared, and not just cared, but I think there's a moment where you begin to understand it's that moment of no turning back. It's the moment when you stand at the freshly buried graves of 5000 Muslim boys and men who were killed all in one day by bullet fire in Srebrenica.It's the moment that you drive through Bosnia and you see all of the graves everywhere. Everywhere, especially in Sarajevo, which experienced a siege, a multiyear siege by Serbia. And they turned the soccer field, which at one point was the focal point of the Sarajevo Olympic Games, they turned that into a graveyard because they ran out of space for the graves. When you roll through Georgia, and you go to Dahlonega, Georgia, and you go to the Mining Museum, which marks the very first gold rush in America, which was not in California, but was in Dahlonega, Georgia, on Cherokee land, and you hear the repercussions of people's silence and also complicity.When they came and they settled, they made a decision about how we should live together, and it did not include, it included the erasure of Cherokee people and Choctaw people and Chickasaw people, Seminole people, Creek people. And you walk that land, and the land tells you. It's so traumatic that the land still tells the story. The land itself tells the story. The land bears witness. When you stand on that land and the land tells you the story, there's a moment that just happens where there's no turning back and you have to bear witness to the truth, even with bullets flying around you. So with regard to Palestine, having done what now goodness, 20 years of research on this biblical concept called shalom, and written the book, The Very Good Gospel, which really lays it out in a systematic way.I would lose my integrity if I was silent in the face of the breaking of shalom, which I learned in Bosnia and Croatia and Serbia, is built on earth through structures. It doesn't just come because people know Jesus. Two thirds of the people in the Bosnian war knew Jesus. Two thirds. The Croats were Christian and the Serbs were Orthodox Christian, and yet they killed each other. I mean, massacred each other. Unfortunately, knowing Jesus is not enough if you have shaped your understanding of Jesus according to the rules and norms of empire. So we actually need international law. We need the instruments of international law. That's what stopped the war there. And they failed there too, but they also have been an intrinsic part of keeping the peace and also prosecuting Milošević. Solike making sure that some measure of justice on this earth happens, some shadow of it.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: And what are we told in scripture in Micah 6:8, walk humbly with God. Do justice. Embrace the truth. So I think that when I saw on October 7, the breach of the wall, the breach of the gate and then the massacre at the festival, I grieved. I really grieved. And I was scared, really scared for the nation of Israel, for the people who were there. And I began to ask questions, because I've learned the discipline of not dehumanizing. Because to dehumanize is to break shalom. It's one of the first things that happens in the breaking of shalom and the eradication of it. And so part of what I had to do if I was going to consider Palestinian people human was to ask what has happened to them that would cause them to take such violent and radical action. How did we get here? Is the question.And the narrative that I heard from Israel, from the state of Israel, from the leaders of the state of Israel, which had been marched against by their own people just the week before that, and weeks for like a month or two before that, they were trying to depose the leadership of Israel because they were trying to turn their state into a fascist state. I was watching that as well. Trying to take the power of the judiciary away so that they could increase the power of the Prime Minister. So what does it mean then? What does it mean that this happened? And I was listening to the way that the narrative that Netanyahu was giving and his generals and the narrative they were giving is, “These are monsters. They are terrorists. They are evil. They are intrinsically, they are not human.”And I knew when I saw that, when I heard that, I thought Bosnia. I thought Rwanda, where they called the other cockroaches. I thought South Africa, where they called Black people not human, monsters, who need to be controlled. I thought Native Americans, who were called savages in order to be controlled, in order to have the justification of genocide. I thought of people of African descent who were brought in death ships across the Atlantic to South America and Central America and Mexico and North America in order to be used to build European wealth and they were called non-human. And even according to our own laws, our constitution declared three fifths of a human being.So when I heard Netanyahu and his generals dehumanizing the Palestinians, I knew, that for me was like the first signal, and it happened on the first day. It was the first signal that we are about to witness a genocide. They are preparing us. They are grooming us to participate in genocide. And I, as a theologian, as an ethicist, as a Christian, would lose my credibility if I remained silent and became complicit in that genocide through my silence. Because having studied the genocides that I mentioned earlier and the oppressions that I mentioned earlier, I know that most of those spaces were Christian spaces.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: And they happened, those genocides and those oppressions were able to happen because Christians were silent.Jonathan Walton: Gathering all that up, I think… I mean, we've had Munther on this podcast, we've talked with him throughout the years. When he said, “The role of Christians is to be prophetic, to speak prophetic truth to power,” something clicked for me in that as you're talking about our witness being compromised, as you are saying, “Hey, let's ask this question, who does this benefit? What is happening?”Lisa Sharon Harper: That's right.Jonathan Walton: The reality that he said, “All of us are Nathan when it comes to empire. We are supposed to be the ones who say this is wrong.” And that resonates with what you said, like how can I have integrity and be silent? Genocide necessitates silence and complicity in that way from people.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. And here's the thing. How are you gonna go to church and sing worship songs to Jesus on Sunday and be silent Monday through Saturday witnessing the slaying of the image of God on earth. You hear what I'm saying?Sy Hoekstra: Yes.Lisa Sharon Harper: Like my understanding of shalom now is not just we do these things in order to be nice and so we live together. It is that shalom is intricately connected with the flourishing of the kingdom of God.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Lisa Sharon Harper: It is the flourishing of the kingdom of God.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Lisa Sharon Harper: And the kingdom of God flourishes wherever the image of God flourishes. And the image of God is born by every single human being. And part of what it means to be made in the image of God is that humans who are made in the image of God exercise agency, stewardship of the world. And the most drastic example or practice of warfare against the image of God is war.Jonathan Walton: Yes [laughs]. Absolutely.Lisa Sharon Harper: War annihilates the image of God on earth. It is a declaration of war, not only on Palestinians or Gazans or even Israel or the empire anywhere. It is a declaration of war against God. It is a declaration of war against God.Sy Hoekstra: A phrase that has stuck in my head about you was from one of the endorsements to your last book Fortune. Jemar Tisby described you as a long-distance runner for justice.Jonathan Walton: [laughs] That's awesome.Sy Hoekstra: That always struck me as accurate.Jonathan Walton: That is great.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Not a sprinter.Jonathan Walton: No.Sy Hoekstra: Not a sprinter.Lisa Sharon Harper: That was really pretty cool. I was like, “Oh Jemar, thank you.” [laughter]Jonathan Walton: I need that. We just in here. That's great [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: So here's the question then, where does your hope and sustenance, how do you get that? Where does it come from?Lisa Sharon Harper: Honestly, it comes from focusing on the kingdom. Focusing on Jesus. Focusing on doing the kingdom of God. And when you do it you witness it. And when you witness it, you get hope. I mean, I've learned, even in the last year, an actual life lesson for me was hope comes in the doing. Hope comes in the doing. So as we do the kingdom, we gain hope. As we show up for the protests so that we confront the powers that are slaying the image of God on earth, we gain hope. As we speak out against it and form our words in ways that do battle with the thinking that lays the groundwork for ethics of erasure, we gain hope because we're doing it. We see the power.The kingdom of God exists wherever there are people who actually bow to the ethic of God. Who do it. Who do the ethic of God. You can't say you believe in Jesus and not actually do his ethic. You don't believe in him. What do you believe? He never said, “Believe stuff about me.” He said, “Follow me.” He literally never said, “Believe stuff about me.”Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Lisa Sharon Harper: He said, “Follow me. Do what I do. ”And that's ethics. That's the question of, how do we live together in the world?? So we do and we gain hope.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: I like that. That reminds me of Romans 5: There'll be glory in our suffering. Suffering produces perseverance, character, and character hope. It's like, it's not an intuitive thing necessarily, if you haven't done it before. But that's great, and that's a really, I like that a lot as a place for us to end [laughs]. To get out there and do it, and you will find the hope as you go.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: Can you tell us where people can find you or work that you would want people to see of yours?Lisa Sharon Harper: Absolutely. Well, hey, first of all, thank you guys so much for having me on, and it's been really a joy to start my day in conversation with you. Y'all can follow what I'm up to at Lisasharonharper.com. I live on Instagram, and so you can [laughter], you can definitely follow on Instagram and Facebook. And Freedom Road Podcast is a place where a lot of people have found the conversation and are tracking with it. And I'm always trying to have guests on that are pushing me and causing me to ask deeper questions. And so I really, I welcome you to join us on Freedom Road.Sy Hoekstra: Yes. I wholeheartedly second that.Lisa Sharon Harper: And of course, the books [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And of course, the books.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Fortune, Very Good Gospel, all the rest.Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, exactly.Sy Hoekstra: Lisa Sharon Harper, thank you so much for joining us. This has been a delight.Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much.Lisa Sharon Harper: Thank you Sy. Thank you, Jonathan.[The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.]Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan, that was a fantastic discussion. Tell me what you are thinking about coming out of it?Jonathan Walton: Yeah, I think one, is just it's just really helpful to talk with someone who's been around for a while. I think most of us… I'm 38 years old, but let's just say millennials and younger, we don't consume or receive a lot of long form content.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: And we don't also engage with people who are willing and able to mentor us through difficult situations. We're getting sound bites from TikTok and Instagram and YouTube, and we don't get the whole of knowledge or experiences. So listening to Lisa talk about, “I grabbed this bit from L.A., I grabbed this bit from Palestine, I grabbed this bit from Croatia, I grabbed this bit.” We cannot microwave transformation. We cannot have instant growth. There is no, let me go through the side door of growing to maturity in my faithfulness and walk with Jesus.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: There is just doing it. And so when she said, “I find the hope in the doing,” you don't learn that unless you have done stuff. That's a big takeaway. I also appreciated just her take on the genocide in Palestine. And because she was mentored and has talked with Miroslav Volf, she knows what it smells like, because she's done the work in her own history of her own background. If you have not read Fortune, go read the book. The reason Black folks cannot find who we [laughs] come from is because they were enslaved and killed. The reason we cannot find the indigenous and native folks we were related to is because there was genocide. So there's these things.And she goes through that in her book, and to talk about how to wield our stories when we don't have one, or how to wield a story of tragedy to turn it into something transformative, is something I admire, appreciate and hope that I can embody if and when the time comes for myself, when I have collected and grown and have asked similar questions. I'm appreciative of what she had to say. And you know, I know I asked her the question about not burning things down, and so I appreciated that [laughs] answer as well. Like, there's just a lot of wisdom, and I hope that folks listening were able to glean as well.Sy Hoekstra: I totally agree with all that. I think all that was very powerful. And there isn't it… kind of reminds me of when her book we've mentioned a few times, The Very Good Gospel, came out. It came out in 2016, but like I said, when we were talking to her, the stuff that was in that book she had been thinking about for more than a decade at that point. And it was very clear. When I was reading it, I was like, “Oh, this is Lisa's bag—this is what she was talking to us about when we were in college in 2008.”Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: At that camp, but she'd been thinking about it for even longer than that. It was just like, you can tell when something isn't like, “Oh, I had to research this because I was gonna write a book about it, so I had to learn about it.” You know what I mean? You can tell when someone does that versus when someone's been soaking in a subject. It's like marinating in it for 12, 15, years, or whatever it was. She just has a lot of that stuff [laughs]. You know what? I just used the image of marinating and marinating and microwaving are very different things [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, that is true.Sy Hoekstra: One takes a lot longer.Jonathan Walton: Put a steak in a microwave, see if you enjoy it [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, so I totally agree with all that. I came out of it thinking a lot about how the things that she said thematically kind of connected to some thoughts that I've had, but also just in terms of historical events. Because I told her this after the interview, when I moved to Switzerland in 2001 I was 13, my family moved over there. It was just at the end of the Yugoslavian Civil War, which was what she was talking about Bosnia and Croatia and Serbia. And Switzerland took in a ton of refugees from that war.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So my neighborhood, there was a big apartment complex. I mean, big for Swiss standards, kind of small honestly for American standards. But there's an apartment complex around the corner from my house that they had put a bunch of Bosnian refugees in. And their school was right down the road, the public school. And so my neighborhood in high school was like the kids playing around in the streets and in the playground or whatever were Bosnian refugees. And the combination of the three countries, Serbian, Croatia and Bosnia, used to be one big thing called Yugoslavia, right.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And the first two syllables of the word Yugoslavia were in Switzerland, a slur for anyone who was from that country. And there was just a ton of bigotry toward them, basically because they displayed poverty [laughter]. Like they were one of the most visible groups of poor people in Zurich. And again, like Lisa said, this wasn't about racism. Everybody's White. But you're talking about like there were ethnic differences and there was class differences. And people dismissed them for their criminality, or for how the young men would get in fights in bars and on the streets or whatever, and all that kind of stuff. And then, you know how a lot of refugees from the Somalian war ended up in Minneapolis and St Paul, just like where a lot of them were placed in the US, and then a lot of them moved into North Dakota.It's like, a lot of… which is where my family's from. I've been there a lot. I hear a lot of people talking about the politics in that region. And you would hear similar stuff about them, except that it was about race. That it was, “Oh, we have crime now because we have Black people and we haven't before.” I mean, obviously Minneapolis, they did, but not really in the parts of North Dakota that my family's from. And so it was this lesson for me about the thing that Lisa was talking about, respect for the image of God in all people and how when you bring people who are somehow differentiable [laughter] from you, somebody who's from another grid, you can call them a different class, a different race, whatever, we will find any excuse to just say, “Oh, these are just bad people,” instead of taking responsibility for them, loving our neighbor, doing any of the stuff that we were commanded to do by Jesus, to the stranger, the foreigner, the immigrant in our midst.We will find whatever dividing lines we can to write people off. It can be race, it can be poverty, it can be, it doesn't matter. It's not what we should actually be saying about poverty or violence, or the fact that people are getting mugged or whatever. What we should be saying is we have a bunch of people who just got here from a war torn society. They were cut off from education and job skills and opportunities and all kinds of other things. And this is, when you just stick them in a society that treats them like garbage, this is what happens every single time, without fail. And so what we need to do is [laughter] be good neighbors.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Treat people well and forgive when people wrong us and that sort of thing. And we just will find any excuse in the world not to do that. And it's because we are not starting from that place that Miroslav Volf, who I love by the way, said to Lisa, is the place where you have to start everything when it comes to these kinds of conflicts, which is respect for the image of God in other people. The fact that they didn't do that in Yugoslavia led to slaughter en masse, but it still happens when you leave and you put yourself in a different context. There's still that lack of respect, and it's still harming people, even when there's quote- unquote, peace.Jonathan Walton: This opens up another can of worms. But I thought to myself…Sy Hoekstra: Go for it.Jonathan Walton: …it's much easier to say, “I just don't want to help,” than it is to say, “This person's evil,” or, “These people are bad.” Because I think at the core of it, someone says, “Is this your neighbor?” Jesus says, “Is this your neighbor?” And the Jewish leader of the day does not want to help the Samaritan, whatever the reasoning is. Right?Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jonathan Walton: We're trying to justify our innate desire to not help our neighbor. As opposed to just dealing with the reality that many of us, when we see people who are broken and messed up, quote- unquote broken, quote- unquote messed up, quote- unquote on the opposite side of whatever power dynamic or oppressive structure that is set up or has just made, quote- unquote poor choices, some of us, our gut reaction is, I don't want to help them. And if we would just, I think just stop there, be like, “My first inclination is, I'm not interested in helping them.” And paused it there and reflected on why we don't want to do that internally, as opposed to turning towards them and making them the reason. Because they were just sitting there.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: The person on the street who's experiencing homelessness was just sitting there. The one in 10 students in New York City that is homeless is just sitting there. They're just there. And so if we were able to slow down for a second and say, “Why don't I want this person to live in my neighborhood, in my own stuff? Well, I don't like change. I'm afraid of this being different. I'm uncomfortable with different foods. I'm afraid of my favorite coffee shop or restaurant being taken away. I'm uncomfortable around people of different faiths. I feel weird when I don't hear my language being spoken.” If we were able to turn those reflections inward before we had uncomfortable feelings, turned them into actions, and then justified those actions with theology that has nothing to do with the gospel of Jesus, then I wonder what would be different. But that that slowing down is really hard, because it's easier to feel the feeling, react, and then justify my reaction with a divine mandate.Sy Hoekstra: Or just plug those feelings into stereotypes and all of the existing ways of thinking about people that we provide for each other so that we can avoid doing that very reflection.Jonathan Walton: That's all that I thought about there [laughs]. I'm going to be thinking about that for a while actually. So Sy, which tab is still open for you? We're going to talk about a segment where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. And remember, you can get this newsletter for free just by signing up for our mailing list at KTFPress.com. You'll get recommendations on articles, podcasts and other media that both of us have found that will help you in your political education and discipleship. Plus you'll get reflections to keep us grounded, from me and Sy that help keep us grounded every week as we engage in just this challenging work and together in the news about what's happening and all that.You can get everything I'm just talking about at KTFPress.com and more. So go get that free subscription at KTFPress.com. So Sy, want to summarize that main story point for us?Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. I mean, this is interesting, because when I wrote about this, which is the story about Haitian immigrants in Ohio, it was two days after the debate, and the story has only exploded since then, and I think a lot of people kind of probably have the gist of it already. But some completely unfounded rumors based on fourth hand nonsense and some blurry pictures of people that have nothing whatsoever to do with Haitian immigrants started spreading online among right wing conspiracy theorists saying, for some reason, that Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio were eating pets.Jonathan Walton: [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Stealing, kidnapping and eating the resident's pets.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And the absurdity of this story was immediately apparent to me being someone who married into a Haitian immigrant family, Haitians do not eat cats and dogs [laughs]. It's a ridiculous thing to have to say, but I say it because I understand, maybe you have no, maybe you know nothing whatsoever about Haiti and you think, “Well, I don't know. There are some cultures around the world where they eat animals that we think of as pets or that we don't think of as food or whatever.” And like, okay, fine, that's true. It's not Haiti, though.Jonathan Walton: Right [laughter].Sy Hoekstra: The idea of eating a cat or a dog to a Haitian is as weird to them as it is to us. I promise you, I've had so much Haitian food [laughter]. So basically this rumor spread, Donald Trump mentions that the debates and now there are Proud Boys in Springfield, Ohio, marching around with cat posters and memes. There are people calling in bomb threats to schools and to government buildings, to all other institutions in Springfield. The Haitian population is very afraid of Donald Trump. At this point, we're recording this on Friday, September 20, he has said that he will travel to Springfield, and basically everyone there has said, “Please do not do that. You're only going to stoke more problems.”And every last piece of evidence that has been offered as evidence, which was always pretty weak in the first place, has been debunked at this point. There was one, the Vance campaign just recent, the past couple days, gave a police report to the Washington Post and said, “See, we found it. Here's a woman who actually filed a police report that says that my Haitian neighbors took my cat and ate my cat.” And the Washington Post did what, for some reason Republicans never expect journalists to do, and actually did their job and called up the woman who said, “Oh, yeah, I filed that report, and then I found my cat in my basement, and they were fine.” [laughs]Jonathan Walton: Yes. In her house.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. And so I don't know, there have been a couple of blips like that where somebody is like, “See, I found evidence,” and then someone was immediately like, “That's not actually evidence.” There have been rumors of other rallies or whatever. It's basically just becoming a focal point and a meme for all of Trump and his supporters, immigration resentment.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: There was a story today about people in Alabama being concerned about, some small town in Alabama being concerned about becoming the next Springfield because they had 60 Haitian immigrants in their town of 12,000 people [laughs]. I don't know. It's all just bizarre. The main actual point though, around the actual immigration policy stuff, Gabrielle and a few other people, my wife's name is Gabrielle, and a few other Haitians that I've seen comment on this, keep bringing up the Toni Morrison quote about how racism is a distraction from actual issues.Jonathan Walton: That is literally what I was gonna read.Sy Hoekstra: There you go. Okay [laughs]. So the actual issue here is that there's this community of about 60,000 people in Ohio that has had an influx of about 15,000 Haitian immigrants, and so it's a lot of strain on the schools and housing and stuff like that, which those are real questions. But also, the Haitian immigrants are there because the local economy revitalization efforts led to a bunch of manufacturers coming into Springfield and having more jobs than laborers, and explicitly saying, “We need you to bring in more laborers.” And so they were Haitian immigrants who are legally in the country [laughs], who have social security numbers and temporary protected status at the very least if not green cards or whatever, have been filling these jobs, and not remotely even a majority of these jobs.They're just filling in the extra 10, 15 percent or whatever the workforce that these manufacturers thought they needed. And the story has become, “Haitians are taking our jobs,” which is absolute nonsense.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So those are the main points of the story. Sorry, I talked a while. I have a lot of feelings about this one [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No, I mean…Sy Hoekstra: But Jonathan, what are your thoughts?Jonathan Walton: For a good reason. Let me just say this quote by Toni Morrison, “The function, the very serious function of racism, is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work. It keeps you explaining over and over again your reason for being. Somebody says your head isn't shaped properly, and you have scientists working on the fact that it is. Somebody says you have no art, so you dredge that up. Somebody says you have no kingdoms, so you dredge that up. None of this is necessary. There will always be one more thing.” So along with that Toni Morrison quote, I want to put that side by side with this quote from Robert Jones Jr.'s National Book of the Year, The Prophets.“To survive this place, you had to want to die. That was the way of the world as remade by the Toubab.” Toubab is a Western and Central African word for colonizer, European. “They push people into the mud and then call them filthy. They forbade people from accessing knowledge of the world, and then called them simple. They worked people until their empty hands were twisted and bleeding and can do no more, than they called them lazy. They forced people to eat innards from troughs, and then called them uncivilized. They kidnapped babies and shattered families and then called them incapable of love. They raped and lynched and cut up people into parts and called the pieces savages. They stepped on people's throats with all of their might and asked why the people couldn't breathe.”“And then when people made an attempt to break the foot or cut it off one they screamed, “Chaos,” and claimed that mass murder was the only way to restore order. They praised every daisy and then called every blackberry a stain. They bled the color from God's face, gave it a dangle between its legs, and called it holy. Then when they were done breaking things, they pointed to the sky and called the color of the universe itself a sin, [black]. And then the whole world believed them, even some of Samuel's [or Black] people. Especially some of Samuel's people. This was untoward and made it hard to open your heart to feel a sense of loyalty that wasn't a strategy. It was easier to just seal yourself up and rock yourself to sleep.”That to me, like those two quotes together. So the Son of Baldwin, Robert Jones Jr, great follow on Substack and that quote from Toni Morrison, an iconic Black female writer, wrote Beloved, The Bluest Eye, those two things together, like what racism does to a person. The giving up, the I just, “What can I do?” and the distraction for the people who do have effort, are just two roads that I wish we just didn't have to go down. But most people will spend our energy either resigned because we've spent too much or pushing against the lie as the powers that be continue to carry out genocide, continue to extract limestone from Haiti, continues to extract resources from Haiti, continue to destroy African economies through extraction in the Congo and Benin and all the places.And so my prayer and longing is that the resilience of the Haitian people and the legacy of Toussaint and all of that would be present in the people that are there and the diaspora. And I believe that is true. And I pray for safety for all of the people that still have to live in this, what is fastly becoming a sundown town.Sy Hoekstra: Right.Jonathan Walton: It's a very real thing. And I talked to someone else. Oh, actually [laughs], it was a DM on Instagram that I sent to Brandy, and she agreed that there's a lot of PTSD from when Trump was president, because things like this got said every day.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: All the time. And downstream of rhetoric are real actions, like lawyers and taxi drivers being mobilized to go to the airport to try and get the, quote- unquote, Muslim banned people now representation and get them to their destinations. You had very real terrible child separation that happened, that children are still separated from their families right now. And so downstream of all this stuff, are real, real concrete actions. And I am praying that… my daughter asked me this morning, Maya, she said, “Do I want Trump to win, or do I want Harris to win?” And I said, “Maya, I hope that Trump does not win.” She goes “Well, if Harris wins, will it be better?”I said, “It depends on who you ask, but I think there will be a better chance for us to move towards something more helpful if Trump does not win.” And then she said she knew some people who are supportive of Trump, and I told her things that her eight year old brain cannot handle.Sy Hoekstra: But wait, what does that mean? [laughs]Jonathan Walton: I just started breaking down why that is because I couldn't help myself.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, why people support him.Jonathan Walton: Why people would support him.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, okay.Jonathan Walton: And then she quickly pivoted back to Story Pirates, which is a wonderful podcast about professional improvisational actors telling kid stories like Cecily Strong and things like that. It's hilarious. But all that to say, I think this is a prime example of the type of chaos and environment that is created when someone like Trump is president and the cameras are on him at all times. And I hope that is not the reality, because he absolutely does not have any meaningful policy positions besides Project 2025. I don't know if you saw… I'm talking a lot. He was in a town hall in Michigan, and someone asked him what his child care policies were. Like what actionable policy does he have? And he said a word salad and a buffet of dictionaries that you don't know what he was talking about.Sy Hoekstra: [laughs].Jonathan Walton: It was nonsense that somehow ended up with immigration being a problem.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And so I think that the worst factions of our country will have a vehicle to live out their worst fantasies about deportations and violence and racism, White supremacy and patriarchy and all those things, if he becomes president. And that's really sad to me, and I think it's a preview of that is what's happening in Springfield right now.Sy Hoekstra: Here's another angle on this. And it fits into everything you just said, but it's just from a different angle, bringing a little bit of Haitian history here. The Haitian Revolution is probably, I can't say that I've read everything to guarantee this, is probably the greatest act of defiance against White supremacy that the world has ever seen. For those who don't know, it happened right after the American Revolution, it was just the enslaved people of the island of Saint-Domingue, which is now Haiti in the Dominican Republic, rising up and overthrowing the French and taking the island for themselves and establishing, like writing the world's second written constitution and establishing basically the world's second democracy.Really the world's first actual democracy [laughs] if you think about how American democracy was restricted to a very small group of people. If you read things that people in colonial governments or slave owners throughout the Western Hemisphere wrote and like when they spoke to each other about their fears over the next decades before slavery is abolished, Haiti is constantly on their minds.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: They never stop talking about it. It's actually mentioned in some of the declarations of secession before the Civil War. When the states wrote why they were seceding, it was like, “Because the Union wants Haiti to happen to us.” For the plantation owners to be killed. It was an obsession, and so the colonial powers in Europe, you may have read some of the work that the New York Times did in the New York Times Magazine last year, maybe it was two years ago, about this. But the amount of energy from European powers that went into making sure that Haiti as a country never had access to global markets or the global economy, that they were constantly impoverished.They were still finding ways to extract money from Haiti, even though it was an independent country. The fact that the US colonized Haiti for almost 20 years in the early 20th century, like the ways that we have controlled who is in power in their government from afar. We've propped up some of the most brutal dictators in the history of the world, honestly. We have been punishing and making sure that everybody knows that the defiance of white supremacy that Haiti showed will never be tolerated.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And so it is so easy for Haitians at every stage to become a scapegoat for whatever anxiety we have about the world becoming less White, the world becoming less of like under our control. Haitian immigrants were the reason that we started using Guantanamo Bay as a prison. They were the first people that we ever imprisoned there. We changed our policies, we like… Do you know for a long time, they wouldn't let Haitian people donate blood in America?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: Because we said they'd had HIV. They had dirty blood, is what we said about them for years. Haiti is not at the bottom because of its choice. That's what we're constantly telling ourselves. Pat Robertson went on his show after the earthquake in 2010, and said the reason that these things still happen to Haiti is because they did Voodoo before their revolution, because they're pagans or whatever. We will make up any reason to not just take responsibility. Again, like with the Bosnians, the Somalis, we make up any reason to not just take responsibility for our actions.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And this is just a continuation of that. And I don't know that I have a further point beyond that, other than to say, everything that Trump and Vance and the Proud Boys and all of them are doing in Springfield right now is just a continuation of that. “You're immigrants that we will call illegal, even though you're not right and you are Black. Your whole pride in your culture and your history is about the way that you defied White supremacy, and you're foreign to us, and you are strange. And we will say that you do things like eat cats that you don't do, and we will just believe it, because we don't actually want to know anything about you other than that you are a monster who defies the way that the world should be ordered.”Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: I'm trying to stop myself from tearing up right now, and I don't know that I have points beyond this. Do you know what I mean? I'm just angry because this is like people, this is my wife and my daughter. I'm probably just taking time now to do what I should have done earlier in this process, which is just feel all the sadness and the anger. But that is what I feel. The Trump and Vance and the people that are a part of his movement are just horrifying. The fruit of their way of seeing the world is just evil, and I think that's where I'm leaving it for now [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Our battle is not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places. And the very thing that Haitian people are called, evil, voodoo all those things, is what White supremacy is.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: That is evil, and that is wicked, and it has been at work for centuries. And in Jesus name, as Connie Anderson would pray in the work she does with White people around White supremacy and leaving that behind, and she says she just prays that it would be overthrown. That demonic power would be overthrown, and people would be disobedient to that leaning.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: And I pray the same would be true for many, many people before and after the polls close on November the 5th.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. So in the newsletter, I put an email address where you could send a PayPal donation to the local Haitian community center. We'll have a link to that in the show notes too. The Haitians on the ground, especially some of the pastors and the churches there, are doing some incredible work to try and keep the peace. I think people have been overlooking that. There was a decent Christianity Today article on kind of what's going on the ground in Ohio, but it really focused on what the local White churches are doing to help [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I really need people to focus on the Haitians, like what is actually happening there, and the fact that there are White supremacists marching around the town. And how terrifying that has to be for them, and how the people who are doing the work to keep the peace there are heroic, and they should not have to be. And they deserve all of our support and all our prayers. So I appreciate anything that you can, any intercession that you can do, any money that you can give. Any support that you can be. Any help that you can be just spreading the truth to people who may not be wanting to hear it or who might not be hearing it from their news sources right now,Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We're gonna end there, then. Thank you so much for listening. Please remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber and support everything we're doing, the media that we're making here. Get the bonus episodes to this show, come to our monthly Zoom calls to have a chat with me and Jonathan about everything that's going on in the election. Bring us your questions, get access to comments on our posts and more pl

Dr. Munther Isaac is the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem, serving a community of Christians that dates back to the time of Jesus. He joins Ash to discuss Israel's continuing annexation of the West Bank, the role of Christian Zionists, and the origins of western hypocrisy.

Today, our episode's all about discipleship around political engagement, based on a series of Bible studies Jonathan and his team at his real job recently created for this election season and beyond. Some points we hit:-        Why it is essential for our political action to understand  we were not created for this world-        Why followers of Jesus won't overemphasize the importance of political victories and losses-        The reality that we are all connected to each other and God desires everyone's political liberation-        And, after that discussion, we dive into a recommendation from one of our recent newsletters on the fallout from Israel's torture of Hamas operativesCredits-            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com.-        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads.-        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon.-        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify.-        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.-        Editing by Multitude Productions-        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra.-        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribersTranscript Introduction[An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”]Jonathan Walton: If we are clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, I would love for us to be as clear-eyed about the bigness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't think our concept of sin and our concept of redemption is actually mature enough to deal with the problems of the world.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton.Sy Hoekstra: And I'm Sy Hoekstra. I'm so excited about what we're gonna be talking about today. We have concluded our series of interviews with authors from the anthology that we published in 2020 about Christianity and politics in the era of Trump. For the next several five or six episodes until the election, you will be hearing more from the two of us. We'll probably have a couple more interviews, but it will not be from those authors. But today, we are jumping into something that I think is very core to what we do at KTF Press. We're talking about political discipleship and how the ways that some stuff that we maybe in some churches relegate to the realm of personal salvation, like the incarnation and the death and resurrection of Jesus, actually have a whole lot to say about how we engage politically. But before we get to all of that, Jonathan.Jonathan Walton: Remember, if you like what you hear and what you read from KTF Press, and would like for it to continue beyond this election season, please go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber and encourage your friends to subscribe as well. We've got a ways to go if we're gonna have enough people to sustain this work, but we believe this work is valuable for us and for you, and so we hope that you do too. Go to KTFPress.com, that'll get you the bonus episodes of this show, access to monthly Zoom chats with the two of us and more, but only if you are subscribed. So again, go to KTFPress.com, subscribe today.The Bible Studies Jonathan's Team Created about Christian Political EngagementSy Hoekstra: All right. So Jonathan, this conversation is actually coming from some work that you are doing in your regular job with InterVarsity. First of all, remind people what you do with InterVarsity [laughter], and then tell people about these resources that you've produced and kind of what the goal of them is.Jonathan Walton: So I'm a Senior Resource Specialist with InterVarsity. And what that looks like is when there are some significant problems, then those things get sent up to the discipleship and leadership team to think about, and one of the things in our sandbox is political discipleship. And so for the last six months, we've been working on a curriculum that folks will be able to use to not just see and seek Jesus during this election season, but actually be formed into people who can see Jesus on the seat in our image as a seat of a stool with three legs, and on the seat. The Lord over our feelings, over our thoughts, over our actions, is Jesus. And so this five part Bible study really leans into that and prayerfully will push people to make that decision, to say, “Oh yes, if I'm a follower of Jesus, then my orthopathy, my orthodoxy and my orthopraxy will be under the Lordship of Jesus.”Sy Hoekstra: You just said three big words. I think a lot of people know that orthodoxy kind of means right belief, and orthopraxy kind of means right practiceJonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: Orthopathy, what does that mean?Jonathan Walton: Orthopathy, which most of us function on is our feelings and passions. So what does it look like for us to actually say, “I feel uncomfortable, I feel afraid, I feel sad.” And instead of acting out of that feeling and then forming a theology that justifies our actions that were based on our feelings of fear or anxiety or discomfort or loss of control, we actually said, “Oh, I feel afraid of this,” or “I feel uncomfortable about this, but I can actually put that fear, that discomfort, that anger, under the seat of Jesus,” and be able to have our thoughts and actions be in line with the kingdom of God, and not just in line with our deepest wounds or whims.Sy Hoekstra: Okay, so that is some helpful context. You have created these Bible studies as part of your job as a resource developer, and we will have links to those Bible studies that are available for free online. So if you wanna do a five session Bible study with a small group or whatever, you can go get Jonathan's stuff and talk about politics with your small group, which I think everybody should be doing right now [laughter], at least if you live in the United States. Not everybody that listens to the show is in the United States, but for all the Americans, go do that, please. Oh, and actually, sorry you didn't write these. You were part of the team that developed these.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: The actual writing was done by other people, but you were very involved in the process.We Were Not Created for This World, and That Affects Our PoliticsSy Hoekstra: So let's get into one of the main ideas here, which I think is, let's talk about some of the implications of the idea that we were not created for the world that we live in. This is kind of a big deal I think, in your thinking, and I would like you to tell us what, first of all, what kind of world were we created for, and then what does that imply for our politics?We Were Created for a World Where Everything Existed in HarmonyJonathan Walton: One of the things that gets lost in most of our theology about the quote- unquote, fall is that we don't engage as much with what the world could have looked like if we had not, quote- unquote, fallen. And so I like to think about every possible thing in the world that is broken and not working well, what if it had been working just fine? So let's imagine for a moment that work, like Adam and Eve in the Garden doing the stuff, was good. Like work was good. Let's imagine for a moment that a man never blamed the problem on a woman, and a woman never blamed the problem on the man. Let's imagine a world free of shame, jealousy, deceit and blaming. Let's lean into that slim window in Scripture and that slim window and stories that were passed down for generations, and generations where there was no deceit.We could know one another and be known. We could forgive, because I don't imagine that no one got hurt, but I imagine though, is people were quick to forgive and quick to ask for forgiveness. To be able to live in harmony with the world, that includes that big Shalom theology, where there's peace in me, there's peace between me and others, there's peace between me and creation, there's peace between me and God. There's reconciliation, there's Shalom there. And so since we do not have that world, the world that we currently live in is one that we will have constant dissonance with.We Must Be People Who Rejoice When Empires FallJonathan Walton: So fast forward all the way to Revelation 18,19, and 20, when quote unquote, Babylon, or the Empire is destroyed.And there are people that are weeping over Babylon, and there are people that are rejoicing that Babylon has been destroyed. Followers of Jesus need to be in the camp that says we are rejoicing that Babylon is destroyed. Hallelujah, salvation and glory be unto our God. If we are those people that say, “Ah, you know what? We're so sad that all the spices and all the products and all the slaves are no longer being brought to our shores to serve us,” then you suffer under the judgment of God. The judgment of God says these systems are unjust. A lot of followers of Jesus and other folks don't like to talk about the judgment of God, but I will be honest, I am totally fine talking about the judgment of God when talking about destroying unjust systems and structures in the world [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: Like Jesus, let that come as quickly as possible. So in Amos via Martin Luther King, how most people recognize it, let justice roll down like a mighty stream. That's what we are talking about. When these systems of injustice and violence are washed away. We were not made to be exploited or to exploit other people. We were not made to dominate, destroy, rule and violate. That's not what it is. And so that's what I mean when we say we should have dissonance with this world that we are in because we were not made for this nonsense that we experience regularly.Sy Hoekstra: And then our politics should reflect that dissonance.We Should Not Be Seduced by ColonialismJonathan Walton: Yes. Our politics should reflect that dissonance, and what we should not do is be seduced by coloniality. And here's what I mean by that. Aníbal Quijano, who was a Peruvian sociologist and scholar on coloniality, talked about the seduction of European colonialism, such as that, even though you take colonialism away, we cannot imagine ourselves independent of that colonized structure being in place. And so if we look around the world, the sun never set on the British Empire in that way, there are entire people groups including Black people in the United States, who it's very difficult to imagine life outside of the stratified, segregated society that we find ourselves in.And so for me, I think when we think about our political systems, and we talked about this before on the podcast, one of the things we need a radical revolution of is imagination. Like to be able to imagine a different way of share, like mutual aid, reciprocity. Being able to say, “You know, what? What if I'm not a wage earner in a society, I am still valuable.” Sy, you've talked about this in your essays about disability. Like, what would it look like for us not to see the CEO and the kid with down syndrome as equally valuable for God, even though one of them contributes more to the GDP, like we need to lean into that. And so when we make decisions in politics, we actually need to wrestle with that dissonance as opposed to trying to impose a perfect will in an imperfect world, because it will not exist or come to pass.We Should Always Be Unsatisfied with Political Outcomes, and Be Aware We Don't Control ThemSy Hoekstra: Yeah. So I think one of the things that you and I have talked about that is basically how we will almost always be unsatisfied with the decisions and the activity that we engage in in politics.Jonathan Walton: Yes, and that is okay [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, exactly. Right. That's part of it. You should be that way, is what we're saying.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: You shouldn't be someone who votes wholeheartedly like, what I'm rejecting right now is people who are just like, “Yes, Trump is God's man. We're with him 100 percent. He's gonna do all the stuff we need him to do.” There isn't really a Christian equivalent to that on the left, or I would reject that as well, if anyone was saying that same thing with that same level of fervor about Kamala Harris [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: But well, we'll talk about how there is still some idolatry on the left, but we'll get into that nuance in a second. I just want to emphasize this point, that it's the lack of satisfaction with our votes and the lack of satisfaction with outcomes of activism isn't just what you should expect, it's reflecting a reality in a good way [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: That you are not… you know what I mean? You're always going to feel that tension because you were made to be loved and treated with justice and kindness and generosity and to do the same for others, and that is fundamentally not how our system ever works.Jonathan Walton: Exactly.Sy Hoekstra: We will know that we don't have control over the systems that we have. We should know that [laughs]. We should go into our political engagement with that in the front of our minds, that we don't control the outcomes, and we shouldn't be surprised when they don't come out exactly the way we want them to. But again, when we were talking about this, another thing you pointed out was we also don't have control over God and how God affects the outcomes that God wants to affect [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: We don't know how that's going to happen. So a political loss for us does not necessarily mean anything about God or God's plans, right?Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: So that is kind of the hopeful other side of that coin that I was just talking about. And that doesn't mean by the way, that we don't make clear decisions in certain contexts and be like, “No, this person is absolutely better than this person.” I have no problem saying that. You know what I mean? I feel like sometimes when you talk about being a citizen of the kingdom, there's a lot of like, especially White Christians, who will say that kind of means that we should never really judge anybody's choices at all [laughter], and I fully disagree with that [laughs], because in a given context, someone can be much better than somebody else. They're just not perfect.We Should Want to Make Things Better in Small Ways and Do as Little Harm as PossibleJonathan Walton: Well, the only other thing I'll say, and this actually may apply to later questions in the conversation as well. But I had a conversation, I was one of the keynote speakers for the Community Boost nonprofit leaders conference this week. And one of the speakers, she was on the panel I was moderating, her name is Jennifer Jones Austin. She's the Executive Director of the Federation of Protestant Welfare organizations in New York City.Sy Hoekstra: Gotcha.Jonathan Walton: She used to have a position in corrections in New York City as an advocate [laughs]. She said, “It is my job in this space,” holding her faith in all these things she possibly can, she said “This system is toxic, it's broken, it is terrible, and in so much as I can, I will prevent all harm that I can. And if I also could do incrementally better, then I will do that, knowing full well that this is not the kingdom of God, and I will be wholly dissatisfied with all the things, even the progress, quote- unquote, progress that I'm able to make.” And I think that is a sobering embrace of the realities of where we stand as followers of Jesus who are able to and in so far as we are willing to actually participate in the change of the systems and structures that we are in.So that's Priscilla with education. She is going to [laughs], in Jesus name, do as little harm as she possibly can and make as much progress, quote- unquote, progress as she possibly can.Sy Hoekstra: This is your wife, who's the principal of a school for people who don't know.Jonathan Walton: Yes, and I've recognized also that this is me within InterVarsity, an evangelical organization in the United States that fully participates in the system of this country. Like philanthropy is broken, giving is broken. We all know these systems will not usher in the kingdom of God. At the same time, we are called to participate and reflect the kingdom of God as best as we can. And so I think as we vote, as we enter in, as you were saying, we do not have control over the system, we do not have control over God, but we do control if we are obedient to him and faithfully wrestle with what it looks like to follow him in context. Because, as Munther Isaac, Palestinian theologian, prophet, amazing person said, a theology without context is irrelevant, and we are doing our best to live out of theology in our context.Sy Hoekstra: Both of us saw him speak last week, or I guess when you're hearing this, it'll be two weeks ago at Riverside Church, and it was incredible. And one or two of the things Jonathan has said so far, are certainly inspired by Reverend Isaac. If you look at our newsletter from the 23rd you can watch the entire talk on YouTube. It's incredible. I really suggest everyone does it. When Jonathan says he's a prophet, that's not…Jonathan Walton: Oh, I'm not joking. Yeah [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: It's not an exaggeration. It's like the word prophet is something that gets thrown around a lot, and it can be grandiose when you apply to certain people. This man fits the bill [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Why Christians Shouldn't Overemphasize Political Wins and LossesSy Hoekstra: Okay, so let's get into another point that we were talking about that I think is important when it comes to political discipleship, especially in this moment of heightened tension in the election. Which is there are so many ways that understanding yourself as a citizen of the kingdom of God makes you less likely to overemphasize political victories and losses. And you can err to one side in the way that Trump does, which is what I was talking about before, or the way that Trump supporters do, where they can say, “Trump being elected will basically be our political salvation [laughs]. We will be fine. Our power will be given back to us the way that we deserve, our enemies shall be defeated,” etcetera, etcetera.But like I also said, there are ways that the left does this and there are ways that the right does this when it's not Trump and we're not in a sort of cult of personality situation. So can you talk to us about what overemphasizing political victories and losses looks like, and why understanding the kingdom helps you avoid doing that, making that mistake?Our Hope Is Not in Political Victories or Material ProsperityJonathan Walton: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the way the right predominantly does this is using salvific language like, “We are going to save you.” And so there's this identification alliance with right wing rapture theology that says, we just need to be redeemed from the world or going back to something that is more holy, just, beautiful, righteous and good. Usually for White evangelicals, that's around 1958. 1958 was the peak of White evangelical and White American leadership and ownership of all these different things in the United States. And so that reality that many people in the current day White evangelical movement are trying to get back to. 1958 also signals what the left tries to do.1958 was the advent of the civil rights movement coming into the mainstream of the United States when Martin Luther King wrote, when White evangelicals in the United States had to contend with Martin Luther King. So Jerry Falwell writing, segregation or not, like which is it, and then doubling down on segregation. But from 1958 you can begin to see this surging of the rights of women being talked about, the rights of people of color being talked about. Then you get into quote- unquote, the sexual revolution, feminist revolution of the 70s and 80s, like music changing into a way that there's television, things to be broadcast. Folks being shocked that the people they listen to on the radio are people of color, like you start to get this change [laughs].And so what the right says is salvation, the left says is progress. And so pastors and people who push towards more progressivism and politicians who don't read in context like to pull out that piece when Martin Luther King says, the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice. We take that out, and basically what that does is a soft baptism of generational superiority. Meaning that I'm better than the last generation, and the generation after me will be better, when scripture does not say that. Ecclesiastes says there's nothing new under the sun. There have always been people fighting against slavery, oppression, abuse and violence, and there have always been people who are trying to impose those systems, whether they be the Roman government or the American government or the Spartans or the Cretans, it doesn't matter who it is.This has always been the same argument and fight. The Nazis before, the Americans today, Israelis one day, slaveholders another day, Palestinians one day, enslaved Africans another day. The reality is this has always been going back and forth. The invitation has always been the same, to follow Jesus. That's the invitation. There isn't a like, “Man, you know what? In 1950, it was really bad.” That's what progressives would say, “But we've come a long way, and we're continuing forward, onward and upward.” And then conservatives would say, “Oh, man, you know it used to be this way. Let me go back to my little town and…” but both of those are salvation narratives that actually don't leave us saved. They don't. Jesus is the only way.They don't leave us saved, because the salvation of Jesus is ultimate and all encompassing at once. The quote- unquote, safety that moral progressivism or conservatism offers us is for a few, for moments in time. The only thing in my estimation, as an individual that has read a little bit and prayed a lot is the only thing that has been as pervasive and adopted by so many people is colonialism. The idea of White supremacy, the idea that we need to exploit and violate, the idea that we need to extract as much as possible and we deserve to accumulate at an unfettered pace, that is pervasive across cultures, backgrounds and narratives. That has been carried everywhere even more so than the gospel.And so I would hope that the salvation of all things through Christ would be as comprehensive and fierce as the salvation through works. So it's life, liberty and pursuit of property slash our own comfort equals happiness, or take up your cross, deny yourself and follow me, they are fundamentally opposed to each other.Sy Hoekstra: That was good and deep, and I love it. Let me drill down for a second on the progressivism, because I think some people would hear you say, and you've explained this a little bit, but I mean, some people hear you say, things haven't gotten better, or things took off in some fundamental and helpful way in the 60s, that that's not something that we should think of as salvation. And they might kind of go, “What does he mean by that? I don't know. That's a little…” Because I know you are saying things have gotten better.Jonathan Walton: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.Sy Hoekstra: Like, obviously, there are people who materially did a whole lot better [laughs] after the Civil Rights Movement.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Absolutely. Right.Sy Hoekstra: But what you are saying is, when you are clear-eyed about the amount of harm that the hierarchies and systems of oppression do in this country globally, there are so many things to be concerned about and so many things to deeply lament that the true and good and incredible thing that Black people can vote now [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes, me and you can have this conversation [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, all those kinds of things. Those things are incredible and should be celebrated, and there are just so many other things that are so wrong and terrible.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: You're just being clear-eyed about the world as it is.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: Because you can do that, because you're not looking toward a narrative of progressivism to assure you that you are okay.Jonathan Walton: Yes. Yes. The fundamental container that you and I find ourselves in has improved. That's true.Sy Hoekstra: You and I, like meaning literally you and I.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, me and you. Literally, Sy Hoekstra and Jonathan Walton, the container that we find ourselves in has improved since the lives of our parents. My momma was not born with all of her rights, I was born with all of mine, to an extent in this country. That container has gotten better. The container is still on this side of heaven, which means it's incomplete.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: So can I celebrate, and I do celebrate, the reality that I could go to a bank and get a mortgage and it would be illegal if they discriminated against me and my wife for being people of color, that is awesome. I can celebrate the fact that my wife can get a credit card in her own name, and my daughters will be able to as well. That was something that was illegal. go look it up. I appreciate that. At the same time, let me not be seduced to think that this is the container I was made for because I wasn't. I was made for Genesis 1.Sy Hoekstra: Or seduced into a kind of softer, subtler idolatry of America.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: Or the West, or the societies that we live in, or wealth, or whatever it is that you think has made things more comfortable for you.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Good Political Fruit that Comes with Putting Hope in JesusSy Hoekstra: The reason I spent so much time on that is it's a complicated idea, but I think it's important for people to understand, because it really does free you from the problems that inevitably come when you sort of think, let's say Harris gets elected. We're just like, “Oh, good. We staved off Trump, we beat back fascism. We defeated it, hooray.” [laughs] It stops you from looking at the long history of America and saying no, fascism, authoritarianism, like real oppression of people is a normal part of the DNA of this country, and will continue to come back, and we need to continue to be ready to fight it all the time.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: It does not ever go away, and if you want to sit in comfort and say, “Good, we finally did it,” or “I can rest now,” you can't. You're being seduced into something that is not true [laughter]. And also, being clear-eyed in this way also stops you from doing something that people complain about progressives doing all the time, which is show up to your door every four years or every two years, and ask for your vote, and then not do anything to actually fight the oppression that you're under on a daily basis once they're elected [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: If you're clear-eyed in this way, you can fight for people's flourishing 365 days a year…Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: …and every year. What I'm just doing now is talking about some of the good fruit that comes from letting go of these sort of soft political idols that sometimes people have. Because, I think… And the reason I say soft political idols, they're just political idols, but I think people look at the obviousness and the brazenness of the way that people idolize Trump and Christian power in America, and they think, “I'm not doing that in any similar way,” and a lot of us actually are.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: So that's why I'm harping on this.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And two sentences that I hope will help people as well, is that the reason we're saying this too is because what will drive you is actually hope in the right stuff, as opposed to ending up with putting, literally, for me, like my hope in Obama. I remember the posters, like I was excited.Sy Hoekstra: Do you remember that music video?Jonathan Walton: Which one? There were many.Sy Hoekstra: The “Yes We Can” music video.Jonathan Walton: Oh, yes, yes, yes. I do remember that.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs]. I remember that in particular, I remember you being so excited and emotional about that video, and then later coming back to me and being like, “I should not have cared about that video that much,” [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Right. But man, it is attractive. Like Lil Jon at the DNC right now is there to seduce a certain group of people [Sy laughs]. And Kid Rock is just, let's swap out Kid Rock. Kid Rock was at the RNC. We have to engage, like you said, clear-eyed, so we know what to put our hope in. Because the gospel is a hope that does not disappoint.What Is God's Good News about Politics, and How Can We Apply It to Our Lives?Sy Hoekstra: Amen to that, Jonathan [Jonathan laughs]. But let's talk about the hope that does not disappoint, because I think the stuff that we've been talking about, if you just stopped there would be a little bit, I don't know, it can be a little bit depressing. If you don't already have this perspective [laughs] it's like, it can be hard.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.Sy Hoekstra: It can be hard to deal with being clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, it's not an easy thing to do [Jonathan laughs]. So let's talk about what actually is the good news about politics that you are trying to get people to see through, through these Bible studies and through this kind of work that you're doing.Question Your Assumptions, and Understand the Connectedness of All PeopleJonathan Walton: Yeah. I mean to what you just said, if we are clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, I would love for us to be as clear-eyed about the bigness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't think our concept of sin and our concept of redemption is actually mature enough to deal with the problems of the world. And so I think that one, the first session is just what are our starting points? Most of us have been cultured into political discipleship, we've never actually consciously thought about it. And so that's the first part, just where are our starting points? Then we get into the reality that the theology of the kingdom of God, and the theology that we are all made in God's image is a political reality.If I believe that I am made in the image of God, and every single person around me is made in the image of God, then that has political implications, because my flourishing and their suffering, or my suffering and their flourishing, they are actually intertwined. If I actually live out that theology, when they bleed, I bleed, when I bleed, they bleed. That's why the command to mourn with those who mourn is not, it shouldn't be far off, because I'm mourning my own human family, or I'm rejoicing with my own human family. And so that first study gets into that, and then we have, each study has a real-life story, and each study has a testimony about how these things have been applied or wrestled with in the current day.Making Informed Decisions about Whether We Want to Seek God's LiberationAnd so when we get into the choices that the Israelites made in Samuel, they wanted a king. Wrestling with that, oh snap, the Israelites literally said to the Prophet Samuel, we want to be like everybody else.Sy Hoekstra: And sorry, just really quickly for people who are unfamiliar, there's a moment in the book of 2 Samuel, I think, where Israel goes from saying, “We don't want to just be this people of God who kind of live in this promised land and follow these instructions that God gave us, we want to have a king,” which was not part of like God's plan for their society, “The way that all the societies around us have a king, so that we can have kind of similar power and influence the way that they do.”Jonathan Walton: Exactly. And so when Samuel responds, he says, “Your king will be exploitative. Your king will violate. Your king will take your kids. Your king will do all these things.” And they say, “Yes, sign us up.” And so we need to have conversations about what will actually happen when we say, “Yes, we do want this,” instead of what God intends. And then make concrete decisions about, do we actually want that, and what are the implications? And then if we do decide to follow Jesus, then what does he do and what is his response. When Jesus shows up and says, “I am the Messiah,” out of Isaiah, chapter 61 pulled into Luke chapter 4, the initial sermon is, “I have come to set the oppressed free, proclaim sight to the blind, proclaim freedom for the captives.”He did not say, “I have come to convert you to a certain political ideology, a certain political party or platform.” He didn't say that because he literally says, the kingdom of God is not of this world. And so how do we see that as good news as followers of Jesus? And do we see that as good news in the context we're in today? And then finally, if we do see that as good news, how do we partner with God to actually participate as followers of Jesus in seeking the shalom of all the people around us? Because we do live as followers of Jesus in exile. Now, we are different from the Israelites because, friends, we are not disempowered as Americans.Sy Hoekstra: Yeah.Jonathan Walton: I have an American passport, which puts me in a fundamentally different political bracket than my brothers and sisters who are undocumented, than my human family that suffers under drone strikes. It's different. But at the same time, I can hold fast to the reality that how can I steward my power, my influence, my resources, towards the flourishing of all people, not just myself, which is resisting the gospel of Babylon. And so we have, one of my favorite people in the world is Connie Anderson, and she talks about how she was one of those White women in a midwestern state who had no idea who she was voting for and why. But then she goes to a board meeting at the invitation of someone to really get involved in local politics, and she realized the person that she was voting for had dementia, and he was on the city council voting for things, arguing for it in one minute, and then some time would pass, arguing against it in another minute.And then when someone said, “Hey, didn't you just say the opposite?” Then shout at them, “Don't try to tell me what I think.” And she said, “The only reason I voted for this person was because I recognized their name.” And she began to get involved, and now she leads workshops on anti-racism, trying to help White people do the work of deconstruction, not deconstruction of their faith, but a deconstruction of the White supremacy in their lives and how they can partner with God towards more redemptive things. And she is doing the good hard work of politics, and not politics from a lens of this world would be better if we get the right person in power, but this world will be better and transformative when Jesus is in power.And so how do I partner with him to reflect his kingdom in the system and structures that I have influence and power over? And besides a lot of the work that we do with KTF, this is probably the thing with InterVarsity that I am most proud of. So I sincerely hope that folks will grab it.We Need to Revolutionize Our ImaginationSy Hoekstra: Absolutely. Go check it out. Thank you for sharing the wisdom from it. And I especially want to emphasize what you said about, what did you say about our imagination? You said change or, the verb I can't remember [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Oh, bring a revolution in our imagination [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, there you go. That's what you said. I knew it was good [Jonathan laughs]. That is something that I am particularly passionate about, and kind of dovetails into why I spend so much time reading speculative fiction, like sci-fi and fantasy and everything [laughs], because… and thinking about how the people who write those books affect the worlds that we imagine too. That may seem like a weird, random turn into another subject to some people, but it is the way that I exercise my imagination, and I find a lot of the way that God talks to me in that work [laughs]. Like in the ways that I think about how we can imagine really different worlds and other stories that we don't see here now.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: That to me, is extremely important, and I know that there have to be at least some of you who feel that way too.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Sy Hoekstra: So [laughs] I know there are some avid fiction readers out there. Jonathan, we have a segment to get into.Which Tab Is Still Open? Israel's Horrifying Treatment of Palestinian DetaineesJonathan Walton: Yes. Yes, we've talked a lot, and we are still talking as we're going to get into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, because this is something we're still talking about 10 months later, 76 years later, where we dive a little deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. So Sy, this one is yours, so tell us a little bit about it.Sy Hoekstra: It is mine, although I think I maybe originally got it from you. This is something that we have both been thinking and talking about a lot, so I will just summarize the story very quickly, and then we'll both talk about it for a while. So we're gonna be back on Israel and Palestine. Now, listen everything we just talked about is gonna affect this conversation that we're having now [laughs].Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: But there have been some horrible whistleblower stories, and I will not get into the details. So hopefully we're avoiding the need for a content warning here. But some horrible whistleblower stories about some things going on, I believe you pronounce it, the Sde Teiman detention center in Israel, which is where basically they're keeping a lot of known or suspected Hamas operatives who attacked on October 7. The allegations are about basically physical and sexual torture, and that's all the detail that I will get into, being regularized and just a part of the culture at this particular detention center. So recently, after a lot of these reports, there were 10 IDF soldiers who were charged by military courts, or nine soldiers and one reservist who were charged by military courts with perpetrating one of these acts of violence.And what followed is something that's a little bit unimaginable to me, until I think about January 6th, which was a series of riots at this detention center of people literally trying to just charge into the detention center and take the IDF soldiers who have been charged and put in detention themselves, and just kidnap them out of the place, just like free them. And these rioters, there were a couple hundred of them. A lot of them were just regular people living in the area. But some of them were actual government administrative workers and some of them, a couple of them were actual members of the Israeli parliament who participated in this riot, and they did not succeed. Like the soldiers are still there.Two of them were let go eventually, meaning, the charges were dropped. Eight of them, the military is actually pursuing the charges against them. There has not been any punishment for any of these rioters [laughs]. Nothing's happened to them. There's been no legal consequences. There was another riot and another base, same thing, no real consequences. I was trying to see if maybe just like the American media wasn't reporting on it, but I used multiple large language models [laughter] to look into whether there were any stories about these rioters and what consequences they face, and it's really been nothing. The members of parliament are still just sitting in parliament.Some people who are not in the government, who are in the opposition parties have called for investigations, but nothing has happened. There were many statements made by different far-right government members of parliament that were in support of the rioters. One person in Benjamin Netanyahu's party, basically stood up in Parliament and said, “I do not care what these soldiers did to Hamas operatives, because anything done to Hamas operatives is legitimate, in my view.” Like there's just no limits. When we say that there's an apartheid in Israel, this highlights kind of what we're talking about, because there is sort of within Israel proper, there is, you can still make some arguments about this, but there is a lot of democratic representation and rights for people who live there.And then in the West Bank, since 1967 there's basically been martial law where a general is in charge and makes all the decisions on behalf of people who live there, with the exception of the Jewish settlers who live there, who still have all the rights, as though they lived in Israel proper. And so there's this kind of weird thing going on where even though this base is in Israel, it is under the jurisdiction of the military. So it's this kind of martial law, I don't know, running into Israel's law in a sort of way that's highlighting some divisions in Israel. Because obviously, there are a lot of people within Israel who are very concerned that this has happened, and that people are going completely unaccountable for it.I mean, some people are literally talking about, I don't think this is a mainstream idea, but there's some people talking about, what if a civil war breaks out in Israel, because there are people who are so against what has happened, but the ruling government coalition is just so in favor of continuing the war at all costs, they're now starting to fight with Lebanon. They may start to fight with Iran. So anyways, those are the basics of the story. Jonathan, what are your thoughts [laughs]?Privilege Marginalized Voices in Your Media So You Don't End UP Believing FalsehoodsJonathan Walton: If you are listening, you've made it this far in the podcast and all those things, I hope you would privilege Palestinian voices and the voices of Jewish activists in your media diet, so that you are not persuaded towards believing what is not true. The reality is Israel, not the people, but the state, is a settler colonial project, and much of this I'm gonna repeat from Munther and other people that I have learned from because I am now trying to privilege their voices. I remember, and I've said this on podcast before, my RA when I was 18 years old, who lived in the West Bank, arguing with a Zionist Jewish young man who lives in Brooklyn and had never been to the West Bank about what it looks like.So you're watching someone from a lived reality argue with someone downstream of propaganda. And so the exact same thing could be true of someone who lives in a segregated Black neighborhood trying to explain how law enforcement works to someone who has never actually dealt with law enforcement in the United States, or a man who is having a conversation with a woman about what it's like to have her rape kit submitted and then it never be tested or run or anything. So just trying to bring things home a little bit in that we have to prioritize the voices of marginalized people in these conversations.Now, that is true all the time, particularly when there is no media or video. And in this particular case, there is video of all of this, similar to George Floyd, similar to Sonya Massey in the United States, there's video of this terrible perpetration of sexual violence, and there's video of the soldiers guarding this action so that people don't see it from the cameras and that it continues to happen, which is why these soldiers were quote unquote, arrested in the first place.What Would It Take for Americans to Wake Up to the Reality of This Suffering?Jonathan Walton: Now, my final thought around this is, which really a question, is like I wonder how desensitized we have become to the suffering of others and made it normal for these types of things to happen. And I wonder what it would take, in Jesus name I pray it is not violence.But I wonder what it would take for us to be awakened to actually do something about it as American citizens, because it is our tax dollars, our money, it's all of us that are funding that. And so those are my thoughts as I consider this, because there's a population of people that is further desensitized running into a population of people as being further radicalized because they are seeing more and more images and media come across their feeds. And my longing and hope is that there would be an awareness of the people who have been so desensitized and propagandized of the pain and suffering of the people who are experiencing deep harm, so that there can be some sort of reconciliation and just peace and a ceasefire and all those things before, not because of a war. That's my prayer.And so, yeah, as I am, [laughs] I'm gonna in Jesus name, be at Hunter College, be at Brown, be at MIT, be in Florida this fall, I'm gonna be talking about that. Having conversations, encouraging people to advocate so that there is a lesser chance of violence. Sy, that was a lot for me [laughs]. What are you thinking and feeling?Dehumanization Always Leads to Horrifying Violence, and Turns Oppressors into MonstersSy Hoekstra: That was very good. The thing that is so frustrating to me is how incredibly predictable this was.Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Right.Sy Hoekstra: From the moment October 7th happened, they said, “This is our 911” Okay, This is your Abu Ghraib. This is your Guantanamo. Like we cannot expect to react the exact same way to an attack and not have this happen again. You can't expect to have the same dehumanization and racism against Arabs and not have this happening again. I don't know. It's just so frustrating to me, having grown up with the War on Terror, and just feeling like I'm watching it all over again. And just like it was in America, there's a lot of people in Israeli society who think this is all fine and totally support it.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And we may have done it in a little bit more of a buttoned up way. We might have done it with some lawyers making questionable interpretations of international humanitarian norms or whatever. We might have put the stamp of approval on it of some more powerful forces than they have available to them in Israel, but they're doing the same thing that we were doing. The thing that we need to come away from this is knowing that your dehumanization of other people has real life consequences, and the consequences are both for the victims who experienced horrific things and for the victimizers. Because one of the whistleblowers, when they were talking to CNN, the CNN reporter who doesn't believe this himself, and he put to the soldier, “A lot of people in Israel would say, well, Hamas does way worse than this to our captives. So what's the problem?” And he said, “Hamas is not your bar.” It's like, fine, if you want to be a terrorist organization, go ahead, be a terrorist organization. But you have to recognize that that's the moral decision you're making. You are not better than them, if this is what you are willing to do to them. And your dehumanization of other people at some point will turn you into a monster, is what I'm saying.Jonathan Walton: Right.Sy Hoekstra: And I just, I don't know [laughs]. I'm mad about it because of the horrifying consequences that it has on individual people, so it's a little bit visceral for me, but it is just so frustrating to watch all these things happen all over again and with our same stamp of approval.Jonathan Walton: Yes.Sy Hoekstra: And if you want an example of why electing Kamala Harris will not be a victory for all things good and moral, it is because this sort of thing will continue.Jonathan Walton: Yeah.The Church Is Complicit in This TerrorSy Hoekstra: Another thing from Reverend Isaac last week was he really did a good job of emphasizing how complicit in all this the church is. Emphasizing points like, Christian Zionism actually predates Jewish Zionism, and there are actually way more Christian Zionists in the world than there are Jewish Zionists, just the raw numbers.Jonathan Walton: Yep.Sy Hoekstra: And our support of that theology, our creation of that theology, our failure to fight it at every turn, that is what makes us just wholly complicit in what is happening over there. And Jonathan literally, here's the last note that I wrote in our outline: “Hopefully Jonathan has something uplifting to say before we end” [laughter], because I'll be real, I'm not thinking of it right now.Followers of Jesus need to Focus on Doing Small Advocacy out of Deep Love for OthersJonathan Walton: Yeah. So God's good news about politics is what we're talking about. We are talking about the allocation, distribution of resources, and how people have decided to govern ourselves, and what has happened in the United States, if we're just gonna hang out in the container that we're in, that in the United States we have decided with billions of dollars of our tax dollars, that we are going to build, then send, then advise the genocide of another group of people. I do not want the voting and advocacy and time and work that I do to be perpetrating that or be complicit in that. I might be involved because I have no choice not being overruled, but I will not be unopposed or complacent.And so as followers of Jesus, I think we have two options, and Peter did this really, really well. Peter was suffering under the oppression of the Jewish people, just like Jesus was, and Jesus' family and Jesus' friends and all the disciples as they were being occupied by Romans. And Peter thought he was doing the absolute just right, good thing in carrying a knife all the time, so that when Jesus got arrested, he pulled out his sword and chopped off the dude's ear. And this is John 18, the scene when Jesus was arrested. Jesus then picks up dude's ear, puts it back on his head, tells Peter to fall back. And Peter had two options. Peter could have said, “You know what, this sucks. I'm just not gonna do this anymore. Jesus, you're wrong.”He could have done that. He could have said, “You're presenting me with this gospel of hope in the world that is to come, not the world that is right now.” And he could have said, “I'm just going to give up, or I'm going to… look Simon the Zealot, we listen to this dude talk. It's time to start this.” He could have done that, but instead, eventually he got to, “I'm actually going to be the rock of this Church that Jesus said I was going to be,” which is why you and me and so many people listening to this podcast, have decided to follow this man who happens to be God named Jesus, who 12 ordinary men and a bunch of women that we did not name because they too are from a patriarchal society, we know a few of them, like Mary and Mary Magdalene and Dorcas and Phoebe, who decided to say yes, and thousands of years later, we're still talking about them.And so my hope would be that we as followers of Jesus, would say, “Hey, you know what? What small group of people can we do a little bit of revolutionary actions out of a deep, deep love for so that many, many, many years from now, people are still choosing love over fear and violence.”Sy Hoekstra: There we go, Jonathan. I knew you had it. I knew you had it in you [Jonathan laughs]. But I appreciate that, because when I say uplifting, that feels like something I can resonate with even while I'm looking at the horrifying nature of what I'm looking at. That feels like something where you're not sugarcoating it.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, right.Sy Hoekstra: And that's what I appreciate, and that's what I meant by uplifting. I don't want us just to end on a happy note, because you're Christian and you have to or whatever [laughter].Jonathan Walton: Amen, amen.Sy Hoekstra: So thank you so much for all this work that you're doing trying to create those small communities where people love and do good things. We did a lot of work and tried very hard to do it when we were in college, and I appreciate that you're still trying to get people to do the same thing as they go through that time in their lives.Jonathan Walton: Amen.Prayers and Support for Protesting Students Returning to CampusSy Hoekstra: And you and I will be absolutely praying for and supporting in any way that we can the students as they come back to campus and continue to, again as Munther Isaac said, lead the way in ways that the church has been so afraid to do and so unwilling to do.Jonathan Walton: Yeah, exactly.Sy Hoekstra: If you're listening to this, and you're about to go on to a campus [laughs], or you're already on a campus, we are praying for you, and we absolutely cannot imagine, I don't know, just the uncertainty and the strangeness of what you're doing, but we so appreciate it that you are doing it. And if you're not, and you're just choosing to support people in other ways, because there are many reasons to make that decision, then more power to you as well.Outro and OuttakeSy Hoekstra: Okay. We are going to end there. Jonathan, thank you so much. This was a great conversation. I'm really glad that we got to do it. We'll have those Bible studies that Jonathan created in the show notes.Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra. Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess. Editing by multitude productions. Transcriptions by Joyce Ambale. Production of the show, by me and all of our lovely paid subscribers. Please remember, go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Get the bonus episodes of this show, as well as access to the monthly Zoom conversations. When you're listening to this we will just have had one, so be sure to sign up for the next one coming in September. Thank you all so much for listening, and we will see you all in two weeks.Jonathan Walton: Bye.[The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you're building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.]Jonathan Walton: We are close to the camera. We are ready to go.Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah. By the way my camera, I tried so many different things to make it work here in Canada, and there's just nothing to be done.Jonathan Walton: I understand.Sy Hoekstra: So highlight reels from this episode will come from Jonathan Walton [laughs].Jonathan Walton: No worries, yes.Sy Hoekstra: Just make sure everything you say, you look really cool saying it.Jonathan Walton: I do look really great [laughs].Sy Hoekstra: Hey, I'm glad you know that about yourself, Jonathan, I cannot confirm [Jonathan laughs]. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Friends of Sabeel North America (FOSNA), A Christian Voice for Palestine, presents Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac: "Empty calls for peace without a ceasefire and end to the occupation, and the shallow words of empathy without direct action, are all under the banner of complicity." Rev. Munther Isaac is on an eight-city speaking tour sponsored by FOSNA. This talk is his address at the Claremont Presbyterian Church in Claremont, CA on August 8, 2024. Rev. Munther addresses the silence of many U.S. churches in the face of genocide and Christian Zionism's support of apartheid in the West Bank and Gaza. Rev. Munther Isaac is a Palestinian pastor and theologian. He now serves the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College and director of the highly acclaimed and influential "Christ at the Checkpoint" conferences. During the genocide in Gaza, Munther gained global attention for his sermon, "Christ under the Rubble," which was heard by tens of millions of people and subsequently quoted in South Africa's case against Israel at the International Court of Justice. He has appeared on CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera, MSNBC, CBS, TRT, and Democracy Now! Munther is passionate about issues related to Palestinian theology. He speaks locally and internationally and has published numerous articles on the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians, holistic mission, and reconciliation. He is the author of "The Other Side of the Wall," "From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth," "An Introduction to Palestinian Theology" (in Arabic), a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic), and more recently a book on women's ordination, also in Arabic. He is a Kairos Palestine board member involved in many reconciliation and interfaith forums. Munther originally studied civil engineering at Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a Master in Biblical Studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies.

Host Tom Foley invites Munther Baara, Vice President, Product Strategy and Innovation of EDETEK, Inc. Hear how E-clinical technologies have changed the clinical research industry and healthcare IT landscape. Learn the key trends that are contributing to the explosive growth of clinical data management technologies. And the positive impact improved data management is having on clinical trial design, clinical trial implementation, and accelerated drug development. To stream our Station live 24/7 visit www.HealthcareNOWRadio.com or ask your Smart Device to “….Play Healthcare NOW Radio”. Find all of our network podcasts on your favorite podcast platforms and be sure to subscribe and like us. Learn more at www.healthcarenowradio.com/listen

Following the attempted assignation of Donald Trump, some are saying that God saved his life for a divine purpose. Phil, Kaitlyn, and Skye discuss the selective use of Christian rhetoric surrounding the former President. Then, multiple speakers at the Republican convention used anti-immigrant language associated with the “heritage Americans” movement. We examine the movement and its link to the isolationist and racist policies of the 1920s. And Skye welcome Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, the pastor of the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem, to talk about the Palestinian Christian community in the Holy Land and the impact of the war in Gaza on the church.   0:00 - Go to https://biologos.org/integrate and use code SUMMER50 to get 50% off your order. This code expires August 31st, so head there now!   0:36 - Intro   1:52 - Show Starts   3:14 - Theme Song   3:38 - Sponsor - Hiya Health - Go to https://www.hiyahealth.com/HOLYPOST to receive 50% off your first order   4:42 - Sponsor - The Fresh Pressed Olive Oil Club - To get a Full-Size artisanal olive oil for just $1 shipping, go to https://www.GetFreshHOLYPOST.com   5:54 - Update on Lisa Vischer   6:55 - RNC, Biden Dropout—The Apple Cart is Upset!   9:52 - Messianic Interpretations of the Trump Assassination Attempt   18:26 - What Events Do We Assume Are Divine Intervention?   25:50 - Why is Trump Still Winning?   31:45 - The Politically Unengaged, Patriotic, and Exhausted   37:00 - Heritage Americans   45:38 - Reputational Challenges Facing Harris   50:42 - Sponsor - Better Help - Get 10% off your first month at https://www.betterhelp.com/holypost   51:50 - Interview   53:16 - The Christian Palestinian Community   1:04:47 - Palestinian Christian Reactions to October 7th   1:10:20 - The American Church's Effect on the War   1:16:52 - The Positive Impact of Palestinian Christians   1:22:47 - End Credits   Links Mentioned in the News Segment:   Kaitlyn's Appearance on NPR: https://www.npr.org/2024/07/15/nx-s1-5040606/trumps-assassination-shooting-god-religion   Skye Jethani's Racism and Immigration Video: https://youtu.be/cgfp5ngxqBI   Other resources: The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope: https://a.co/d/aFLu0I9 Christ at the Checkpoint https://christatthecheckpoint.bethbc.edu/munthers-blog/   Holy Post website: https://www.holypost.com/ Holy Post Plus: www.holypost.com/plus Holy Post Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/holypost Holy Post Merch Store: https://www.holypost.com/shop   The Holy Post is supported by our listeners. We may earn affiliate commissions through links listed here. As an Amazon Associate, we earn from qualifying purchases.  

The Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac (⁠Christmas Lutheran Church⁠; ⁠Bethlehem Bible College⁠) recently stopped in Atlanta on a short speaking tour of the US. In part two, we share the Q&A portion of the event.

The Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac (Christmas Lutheran Church; Bethlehem Bible College) recently stopped in Atlanta on a short speaking tour of the US.

Israel's Benjamin Netanyahu might have expected the entire world to celebrate the news of four Israeli hostages being rescued from Gaza, and the entire world might have done - had it not been at the cost of hundreds of Palestinian lives. Saturday's bloody and brutal operation has raised new concerns among many of the Israeli hostage family members, who accuse Netanyahu and his far-right government of deprioritizing the safe return of all the hostages.Enter Zahiro…One hostage family member who believes that is Zahiro Shahar Mor, who says there is more reason to fear for the safety of his 79-year-old uncle, Avraham Munder, while he remains captive in Gaza.Avraham was taken by Hamas on October 7th, along with his wife, daughter, and grandson, all of whom were released during a hostage deal between Hamas and Israel in November - with the exception of Avraham.His nephew Zahiro tells Mehdi: “Ever since October 8th, everything they [the Israeli government] do is directed at not getting the hostages back,” and that Netanyahu's government is actively “sabotaging their own initiatives” by rejecting deals that would have secured the release of all the hostages much earlier in the war. Betrayed by his own country's officials, Zahiro says Israel's government “is being taken hostage by the diehard, right-wing, extremist fundamentalists.” Also on the show, more betrayal …Zahiro isn't the only one who felt betrayed on this week's episode of ‘Mehdi Unfiltered.' Palestinian Pastor Munther Isaac of Bethlehem's Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church accuses Christian evangelicals in the U.S. of abandoning their fellow Christians in the Occupied Territories.“They [US Christian evangelicals] have created a worldview in which support to Israel is integral to this American identity, American exceptionalism, American national Christian identity,” says Munther, a worldview that he thinks would change if they were to visit occupied Bethlehem, for Christians the birthplace of Christ, and see the situation on the ground for themselves. Munther is no stranger to the apartheid rule of Israel, where government policy and a 708-kilometer separation wall disrupt the worship of thousands of Palestinian Christians. Recalling conversations with fellow evangelicals from South Africa, Munther says they described the situation in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories as being “much worse than apartheid,” adding that “you would assume that people would respect what South African theologians, church leaders are saying.”Watch both interviews above and, for paid subscribers, be sure to let us know in the comments below what you think of the full show and who you think we should have on next.  Get full access to Zeteo at zeteo.com/subscribe

I was joined by Munther Younes, a lecturer of linguistics at Cornell University, who was born and raised in the West Bank before, during, and after the Israeli occupation.   Tickets for ICARUS FEST 2024 on sale now: https://www.icarusfest.com/   New courses at Unregistered Academy: FASCISM with Thaddeus Russell, John Foot, and David Beito https://www.unregisteredacademy.com/fascism A RENEGADE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES with Thaddeus Russell https://www.unregisteredacademy.com/renegade-history   BECOME A MEMBER OF UNREGISTERED ACADEMY at https://www.unregisteredacademy.com/ for access to the Foucault webinar and other live and video courses taught by Thaddeus Russell and invited experts: Israel and Palestine: Origins of the Gaza War Foucault Neoconservatism The Ukraine War: Russia vs. The West The New Deal American Slavery The Cold War History of NATO Malcolm X The Religious Right World War II: The Great Blowback The JFK Assassination History of the CIA Great Books: Plato's Republic Great Books: Aristotle's Politics Great Books: The Bible Book Club: Bronze Age Mindset by Bronze Age Pervert Book Club: The Permanent Revolution by James Burnham Book Club: The Unabomber Manifesto by Theodore Kaczynski Book Club: Capitalist Realism by Mark Fisher   Become a PATRON OF UNREGISTERED at https://www.patreon.com/unregistered and get: Access to Unregistered Live, the weekly live Zoom meeting with Thad and patrons of Unregistered Bonus episodes featuring interviews with Curtis Yarvin, Ben Burgis, Michael Malice, Cody Wilson, Batya Ungar-Sargon, Hotep Jesus, and Buck Johnson  

This episode comes to you in partnership with Inverse Podcast. The diverse InVerse podcast community explores how the Scriptures can turn the world upside down, or be weaponized to uphold the status quo. So, this episode we're going to talk the “T” word—theology. Theology is simply how we understand God and our relationship with God. Christian social ethics teaches that our understanding of God forms the basis for everything we do in the world. It impacts everything. This will we be a very special deep dive into the theo-ethical questions rising in the context of the genocide in Gaza. We will talk with three leading Palestinian Christian theologians as they approach Good Friday and Easter Sunday in the context of genocide. Rev. Dr Mitri Raheb is Founder and President of Dar al-Kalima University in Bethlehem. The most widely published Palestinian theologian to date, Dr. Raheb is the author and editor of 50 books including: Decolonizing Palestine: The Land, The People, The Bible; In the Eye of the Storm: Middle Eastern Christians in an Age of Empire and Faith in the Face of Empire: The Bible through Palestinian Eyes—among many, many others. Rev. Dr. Muther Isaac is Pastor of the Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem and Dean of Bethlehem Bible College. Rev. Dr. Munther is the author of The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope. Omar Haramy, is an Arab, Palestinian, Jerusalemite, Christian, and Greek Orthodox. Since 2017, Omar has served as the director of the Sabeel Ecumenical Liberation Theology Center. Sabeel is a Palestinian ecumenical grassroots liberation theology movement that deepens the faith of Palestinian Christians, promotes unity among them, and guides them to engage for justice and peace. Omar also serves on the Kairos Palestine steering committee. Our Inverse Podcast cohost today will be Jarrod McKenna, a peace award winning Australian pastor and social change educator who has been described by American Civil Rights legend Rev. Jim Lawson as “an expert in nonviolent social change”. Jarrod is the Founding Director of “Common Grace” that represents over 65,000 Christians in Australia pursuing “Jesus and justice” and serves with Lisa as one of the co-founders of the global GazaCeasefirePilgrimage.com movement that is now found on every continent, including Antarctica, in over 150 cities around the world. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Thread or Insta Lisa @lisasharper or to Freedom Road @freedomroad.us. We're also on Substack! So be sure to subscribe to freedomroad.substack.com. And, keep sharing the podcast with your friends and networks and letting us know what you think! www.threads.net/@lisasharper www.threads.net/@freedomroad.us freedomroad.substack.com www.inversebible.org/podcasts www.gazaceasefirepilgrimage.com/

This episode comes to you in partnership with The Historic African Episcopal Church of St. Thomas in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. In the spirit of the Historic Black Church, which has begun to rise up and call for a ceasefire in Gaza, St. Thomas's 17th rector, The Very Rev. Canon Martini Shaw and his team decided to focus the church's Lenten season on understanding what's going on in Gaza and why it matters for our faith. So, a portion of this episode has been listened to by the St. Thomas's Community! Last episode we spoke with historian Dr. Rashid Khalidi to help us understand “What's going on?” This episode we spoke with Lisa's friend and brother, Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, Pastor of the Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem and Dean of Bethlehem Bible College. You may have seen the video of Dr. Isaac's viral Christmas Eve sermon. If not, after listening to this conversation, the next thing you do must be to listen to that sermon. It as a theological plea to the global church to intervene in the ongoing genocide of Dr. Isaac's people—the Palestinian people. Rev. Dr. Munther is the author of The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Thread or Insta Lisa @lisasharper or to Freedom Road @freedomroad.us. We're also on Substack! So be sure to subscribe to freedomroad.substack.com. And keep sharing the podcast with your friends and networks and letting us know what you think! www.threads.net/@lisasharper www.threads.net/@freedomroad.us freedomroad.substack.com www.youtube.com/watch?v=Md_hw_A-oIs www.ivpress.com/the-other-side-of-the-wall www.aecst.org/

Bloomsbury Central Baptist Church, Sunday 18 February 2024, 2pm. A service of prayers, music, readings, poetry, silence, and a call to action; with the sermon given by The Revd Dr Munther Isaac, pastor of Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem, academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College in Palestine, and director of the Christ at the Checkpoint conference. “I am traveling to the UK to call the church to be the church, and to act in costly solidarity towards an immediate and comprehensive ceasefire. This is a moral obligation. This is not the time for neutrality or soft diplomacy." - Revd Dr Munther Isaac. The sermon starts at 10:33

In this week's episode of Frankly Speaking, we hear from Palestinian Pastor Reverend Munther Isaac, of the Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem. We ask him about the status of Palestinian Christians, the church's position on the war, and whether the West, who he has accused of failing Palestinians, has began turning on Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu.

Why would anyone want to limit themselves by turning their backs on modern technology in hunting equipment? Find out on this episode of the Arizona Wildlife Federation Podcast with traditional bowhunter and conservationist, Greg Munther.   https://azwildlife.org/

Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem and the Lutheran Church in Beit Sahour and serves as the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences. Munther is the author of “The Other Side of the Wall”, “From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth”, “An Introduction to Palestinian Theology” (in Arabic), a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic), and more recently has published a book on women ordination in the church, also in Arabic. Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a Master in Biblical Studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies.  Sign the petition to advocate for a ceasefire:  https://www.change.org/p/an-open-letter-from-palestinian-christians-to-western-church-leaders-and-theologians?recruiter=1319605589&recruited_by_id=a6f6fd10-6e69-11ee-abdf-5b152ac3937c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=share_for_starters_page&utm_medium=copylink  Contribute financially to relief for Palestinians in Gaza:  https://shepherd-society.org  For ongoing, honest, and well-researched updates on the situation in Israel-Palestine, follow the Scott Horton Show and the podcast “Antiwar News with Dave DeCamp.”   Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

Considering the dark season of pain and lament that Palestinian Christians are going through during Christmas this year, we decided to release this bonus episode that features a sermon by Palestinian pastor Munther Isaac titled "Christ in the Rubble." The sermon was delivered during a special Christmas service called "Christ in the Rubble: A liturgy of Lament" that was held on December 23rd of this year at the Christmas Lutheran Church in Bethlehem. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/acrossthedivide/message

On today's episode, we are joined by The Atlantic's Elizabeth Bruenig for an Advent reflection with Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, assistant pastor of Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem. Rev. Isaac is an evangelical pastor whose life and ministry have been rooted in Bethlehem in the West Bank, where he is a theologian, Bible college dean, a leader of the peacebuilding initiative Christ at the Checkpoint, and part of the ancient but fast-dwindling community of Christians in the Holy Land. This Christmas, as there is war in the Holy Land, this sobering conversation points to the hope of the Incarnation in the midst of suffering—offered from a unique vantage point and moment, in the place of Christ's birth.   Guests: Munther Isaac Elizabeth Bruenig   Additional Resources: The Other Side of the Wall: A Christian Palestinian Narrative of Lament and Hope, by Munther Isaac "Christmas is canceled in the land of Jesus' birth," by Queen Rania Al Abdullah in The Washington Post  "In Bethlehem, the home of Jesus' birth, a season of grieving for Palestinian Christians," by Laura King in The Los Angeles Times

Mod & TIllit präglar Bolagsverkets kulturarbete och tillsammans har de identifierat 10 beteenden som de menar bidrar till just detta. Lyssna när Lena Munther gästar mig och berättar hur dom valt att skilja på mellan hur man är och på vad man gör och hur dom använder sig av gamification som en del li deras implementering. Superspännande! // Jan Blomström - Affärspsykolog

Who is my Neighbor? This seemingly innocent question carries so many assumptions and attitudes. The way Jesus responded to this question is profoundly challenging in a world full of bigotry, racism and segregation. What does the Christian call to love our neighbor as ourselves mean in our world today? How do we, as Jesus' followers, honor this call and commitment in a world shaped by division and tribalism?

This Sarde is brought to you by our incredible patrons at www.patreon.com/sardeafterdinner. Without you guys, there is no Sarde (after dinner). Thank you.    النقاط على الحروف of the Arabic language.  Everything you always wanted to know about the Arabic language (but were afraid to ask). Linguist and Director of the Arabic Program at Cornell University Munther Younes joins us to deconstruct the myths about a language spoken by 300 million people. Who is the “linguistic religious mafia”? How did they manipulate the language to control society? In this #sardeafterdinner, we examine:    -The genesis of Arabic: a pure language or the product of many before it? -The Quran: the first book written in Arabic  -Will Arabic follow the path of Latin and other dead languages?  -Are Arabic dialects evolving into their own languages? -Why we write right-to-left, what ‘el ma7bas' has to do with prison, and what ‘tala2' has to do with ‘freedom'                          __________________ النقاط على الحروف عن اللغة العربية. كل ما لطالما أردتم معرفته عن اللغة العربية (ولكنكم كنتم تخشون السؤال).  ينضم إلينا اللغوي ومدير برنامج اللغة العربية في جامعة كورنيل منذر يونس لتفكيك أساطير اللغة التي يتكلمها أكثر من ٣٠٠ مليون شخص حول العالم. من هي المافيا الدينية اللغوية؟  وكيف غيرت اللغة لكي تتحكم في المجتمع؟ في هذه الحلقة من #سردة، ننظر في:    -جذور اللغة العربية: لغة نقية أو نتاج لغات سبقتها؟ -القرآن: أول كتاب في اللغة العربية -هل تتبع اللغة العربية مسار اللغة اللاتينية وغيرها من اللغات "الميتة"؟ -هل تتطور اللهجات العربية إلى لغاتها الخاصة؟ -لماذا نكتب من اليمين إلى اليسار، وما علاقة "المحبس" بالسجن و"الطلاق" بـ "الحرية"؟   Sarde (noun), [Sa-r-de]: A colloquial term used in the Middle East to describe the act of letting go & kicking off a stream of consciousness and a rambling narrative. The Sarde After Dinner Podcast is a free space based out of the heart of Beirut, Lebanon, where Médéa Azouri & Mouin Jaber discuss a wide range of topics (usually) held behind closed doors in an open and simple way with guests from all walks of life.   سردة (إسم) سَرْدَةْ : مصطلح بالعامية يستخدم في منطقة الشرق الأوسط للدلالة على الاسترخاء وإطلاق سردية. يشكّل بودكاست سردة بعد العشاء مساحة حرّة من قلب بيروت، لبنان، حيث تناقش ميديا عازوري ومعين جابر عدّة مواضيع (لطالما) تمّت مناقشتها خلف أبواب مغلقة وذلك بطريقة بسيطة ومباشرة مع ضيوف من شتّى المجالات.   SARDE EVERY SUNDAY with NEW EPISODES released WEEKLY! 9:00 PM

The world turns to Bethlehem during Christmas, but they have a fairytale image of the little town. However, this is a real community with real challenges. This webinar gives an insight into the reality and challenges of Palestinians and Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land. Revd Dr Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He now pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences.

We chat with Chef Munther Massarweh, about Rickey's in Novato, as well as his newer projects; the Boardroom and Speakeasy. Two new concepts where he explores the Frank Sinatra "Rat Pack" era in food and in cocktails.

TODAY'S GUEST is Munther Isaac - Palestinian theologian, Lutheran minister, author and academic. This holy week many of us will be thinking of the holy land as we journey towards Easter, and in this conversation we listen to a voice we don't often hear – the voice of a Palestinian Christian, reflecting here on the role of the Psalms in his own life and the affinity his community has for the Psalms – especially as they express complaint and lament on Good Friday, and as they point to a vision of a shared, peaceful future in his land. Born and raised in Bethlehem, Munther Isaac speaks internationally and at the local level on issues related to theology of land and reconciliation, and has written extensively on these themes in his books https://www.amazon.co.uk/Land-Lands-Eden-Renewed-Earth/dp/1783680776 (“From Land to Lands,”) and  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Other-Side-Wall-Palestinian-Christian/dp/0830831991/ref=sr_1_2?crid=11O1921SQ9MDA&keywords=the+other+side+of+the+wall&qid=1649948727&s=books&sprefix=the+other+side+of+the+awl%2Cstripbooks%2C96&sr=1-2 (“The Other Side of the Wall.”) In this conversation, we talk about the power of reciting Psalms as a community in times of trouble; about how Good Friday reminds us that even when we feel forsaken, we're not alone; about how persistence in prayers of complaint and lament is in fact a sign of deep faith; and about the vision of an ideal Jerusalem in which barriers are broken and enemies become friends. https://kiranyoungwimberly.com/2022/04/14/psalms-for-the-spirit-ep-19-persistence-as-a-sign-of-deep-faith-with-munther-isaac/ (More about this episode)

We're digging back into the archives to the very beginning to bring you this inaugural OnScript episode from 2016, which features Dr. Munther Isaac of Bethlehem Bible College in Bethlehem, Palestine. He discusses his book From Land to Lands, From Eden to the Renewed Earth: A Christ-Centered Biblical Theology of the Promised Land (Langham Monographs, 2015). I (Matt Lynch) met Munther in Bethlehem back in 2011, when we met to discuss the relationship between land in the Bible and the current strife over land in Israel/Palestine. The post Munther Isaac – A Biblical and Palestinian Theology of the Land first appeared on OnScript.

We're digging back into the archives to the very beginning to bring you this inaugural OnScript episode from 2016, which features Dr. Munther Isaac of Bethlehem Bible College in Bethlehem, Palestine. He discusses his book From Land to Lands, From Eden to the Renewed Earth: A Christ-Centered Biblical Theology of the Promised Land (Langham Monographs, 2015). I (Matt Lynch) met Munther in Bethlehem back in 2011, when we met to discuss the relationship between land in the Bible and the current strife over land in Israel/Palestine. The post Munther Isaac – A Biblical and Palestinian Theology of the Land first appeared on OnScript.

Munther Younes, a trailblazer in the field of Arabic language instruction, discusses his 31-year career at Cornell and the innovative educational materials he has in the works. #friend

Today I talk with Munther Dajani Munther Dajani is an online marketing strategy expert with his company Elumin Agency. He loves helping businesses grow by helping them create a predictable and automated online marketing strategy while looking amazing online. He lives in Portland, Oregon, loves the outdoors, and staying active.   Keep in touch with Munther: http://eluminagency.com Instagram: @moon_ther Facebook: Munther Dajani

Munther, an Iraqi wartime ally, shares his story of service and survival. He had been issued a Special Immigration Visa and was on the plane to America when Trump signed the Muslim ban, immediately causing him and his family to be deported back to Iraq. Munther's incredible journey begins with a childhood marred by war and finds him serving as an interpreter for US forces in Iraq. Most incredibly, he tells of his daring escape to safety in America (despite all the obstacles the Trump administration through at him) and offers his experiences of his first few months in America. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Renewed conflict between Israelis and Palestinians is the background for this episode. Munther Isaac is our guest, and as his book The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope describes, Christians have lived in Palestine since the earliest days of the Jesus movement. Yet, in the heated tensions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the voices of Palestinian Christians are often unheard and ignored. As a Palestinian pastor and theologian, Isaac gives the perspective of Palestinian Christians on the other side of the separation wall. He laments the injustices suffered by the Palestinian people but holds out hope for just peace and ways to befriend and love his Jewish and Muslim neighbors. Isaac has a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies, and is the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College in Palestine and director of the Christ at the Checkpoint conference. He is also pastor of Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem, and author of From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth: A Christ-Centered Biblical Theology of the Promised Land. 

Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac is on Shake the Dust today to talk about the recent violence in Palestine, the increasing attention to the voices of Palestinians, Christian Zionism, the Christ at the Checkpoint conference that he directs, and a whole lot more. Resources to learn more about Palestinian theology mentioned during the show: An Open Letter to U.S. Christians from a Palestinian Pastor by Munther Isaac The Other Side of the Wall: A Palestinian Christian Narrative of Lament and Hope by Munther Isaac From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth: A Christ-Centered Biblical Theology of the Promised Land by Munther Isaac The Land of Christ: A Palestinian Cry by Yohanna Katanacho Through My Enemy's Eyes: Envisioning Reconciliation in Israel-Palestine by Salim Munayer and Lisa Loden I am a Palestinian Christian: God and Politics in the Holy Land: A Personal Testimony by Mitri Raheb Faith in the Face of Empire: The Bible through Palestinian Eyes by Mitri Raheb Justice and Only Justice: A Palestinian Theology of Liberation by Naim Ateek Blood Brothers: The Dramatic Story of a Palestinian Christian Working for Peace in Israel by Elias Chacour and David Hazard Palestinian Memories: The Story of a Palestinian Mother and Her People by Alex Awad Shake the Dust is a podcast of KTF Press. Follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Find transcripts of this show and subscribe to our blog at KTFPress.com. Hosts: Jonathan Walton – follow him on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  Suzie Lahoud – follow her on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.  Sy Hoekstra – follow him on Twitter.  Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. Our podcast art is by Jacqueline Tam – follow her and see her other work on Instagram.  Shake the Dust is produced and edited by Sy Hoekstra, and transcribed by Suzie Lahoud with help from Descript. Questions about anything you heard on the show? Write to shakethedust@ktfpress.com and we may answer your question on a future episode. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com/subscribe

Munther Isaac is a Palestinian Christian pastor and theologian. He now pastors the Evangelical Lutheran Christmas Church in Bethlehem. He is also the academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College, and is the director of the highly acclaimed and influential Christ at the Checkpoint conferences. Munther is passionate about issues related to the Palestinian theology. He speaks locally and internationally and has published numerous articles on issues related to the theology of the land, Palestinian Christians and Palestinian theology, holistic mission and reconciliation. He is the author of “The Other Side of the Wall”, “From Land to Lands, from Eden to the Renewed Earth”, “An Introduction to Palestinian Theology” (in Arabic), and a commentary on the book of Daniel (in Arabic). He is also involved in many reconciliation and interfaith forums. He is also a Kairos Palestine board member. Munther originally studied civil engineering in Birzeit University in Palestine. He then obtained a Master in Biblical Studies from Westminster Theological Seminary and then a PhD from the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies.

Munther Baara, VP Product Strategy and Innovation at EDETEK, discusses all things clinical trials. Especially, we discuss the current gaps and the impact of COVID-19 on the way Pharma approaches clinical trials. We also dive into data lakes, digital technologies for making clinical trials more seamless, and much more!Schedule a meeting with Natalie Yeadon: https://www.meetwithnatalie.comNatalie Yeadon LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalieyeadon/Impetus Digital Website: https://www.impetusdigital.com/Impetus Digital LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/impetus-digital/Impetus Digital Twitter: https://twitter.com/ImpetusadboardsImpetus YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/ImpetushealthcareMunther Baara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mbaara/EDETEK: https://www.edetek.com/

The December podcast will be the Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, pastor of Christmas Lutheran Church in Bethlehem, our sister congregation. Pastor Isaac will share intimate details about life in Bethlehem during the pandemic, now that for the first time tourism and holiday gatherings/rituals have all been cancelled … in the town of Jesus' birth. 

”There were a golf course with 18 holes, between Talpiot, a jewish settlement and the Arab College, where I was staying. We always crossed that golf course to catch the bus from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. We saw girls and boys, women and men, in the forest at Talpiot. They were an army doing their drills. It was forboding what was going to happen. It was in the air. The animosity was already there. This is in 1941”, says Munther Al-Fahoum, born 1927 in Irbid, Jordan. Photo: Shereen Na'nish. Recorded in Amman, 2019.

How did you celebrate your last birthday? Did you try to catch an Alaskan salmon for each year that you've been on this earth? That's what Greg Munther did. If you live in the Northern Rockies and hunt and fish, you've likely heard of Munther, and we are very fortunate to have this revered traditional outdoorsman and conservationist in The February Room! --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/lauren-karnopp3/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to “In the Barracks,” a place for prior and active duty servicemembers, first responders and their friends and family to hang out and talk about life. “The Barracks” is a place to share thoughts, ideas, accomplishments, and dreams with the goal of encouraging people to stay connected to the world and do the same for others. In Episode 10, Chef Munther Massarweh, a Bay Area native, Executive Chef, Restaurateur and former San Francisco Police Officer discusses life in the food industry, navigating COVID-19, nonprofit work and finding balance in work and life. Thank you for joining us “In the Barracks.” To learn more about our hosts, guests and how to support V.E.T.S. Mobile Dental Unit, visit www.InTheBarracks.org

Welcome to “In the Barracks,” a place for prior and active duty servicemembers, first responders and their friends and family to hang out and talk about life. “The Barracks” is a place to share thoughts, ideas, accomplishments, and dreams with the goal of encouraging people to stay connected to the world and do the same for others. In Episode 10, Chef Munther Massarweh, a Bay Area native, Executive Chef, Restaurateur and former San Francisco Police Officer discusses life in the food industry, navigating COVID-19, nonprofit work and finding balance in work and life. Thank you for joining us “In the Barracks.” To learn more about our hosts, guests and how to support V.E.T.S. Mobile Dental Unit, visit www.InTheBarracks.org

Welcome to “In the Barracks,” a place for prior and active duty servicemembers, first responders and their friends and family to hang out and talk about life. “The Barracks” is a place to share thoughts, ideas, accomplishments, and dreams with the goal of encouraging people to stay connected to the world and do the same for others. In Episode 10, Chef Munther Massarweh, a Bay Area native, Executive Chef, Restaurateur and former San Francisco Police Officer discusses life in the food industry, navigating COVID-19, nonprofit work and finding balance in work and life. Thank you for joining us “In the Barracks.” To learn more about our hosts, guests and how to support V.E.T.S. Mobile Dental Unit, visit www.InTheBarracks.org

The Rev. Dr. Munther Isaac, academic dean of Bethlehem Bible College and pastor of Christmas Evangelical Lutheran Church in Bethlehem, Palestine, preached during worship in the Augustana Chapel at LSTC on Sept. 25. His text was Psalm 12.

Julia Fisher talks to Munther Isaac - Today I'm in Bethlehem at the Bethlehem Bible College talking to Munther Isaac, the Academic Dean of the college where the aim is to train leaders for ministry. Munther describes himself as a Palestinian Christian and as you listen to his story, you will hear the pain and heartache felt by so many evangelical Christians living in the West Bank where they are a tiny minority amongst the majority Muslim population. Added to that is the pain of feeling overlooked and often rejected by Christians in the West who hold a pro-Israel anti-Palestinian position. The aim of this programme is not to take sides, rather to give both peoples the opportunity to share their stories in a spirit of reconciliation in order to better understand what God is doing in the region despite the politics and on going conflict. Our aim is to build bridges... To build bridges of understanding and support, in a spirit of reconciliation, between believers (both Jewish and Arab) in the Holy Land (Israel and the Palestinian Areas) and Christians worldwide. olivetreefund.org bethbc.edu

Okay friends! On this episode of Gritty Bowmen Mark Brownlee and myself hang out with our friend Greg Munther at the annual (BHA) Backcountry Hunters and Anglers Rendezvous. Greg is from the older generation… like he’s 72 years old. But he doesn’t seem that old--he’s still getting out and killing big horn sheep, coues deer, mule deer, and elk with his stickbow, which he’s been shooting his entire life. Greg tells us how he uses Llamas to help him get things done in the backcountry. He’s an inspiring person. And his passion for the outdoors and for hunting is infectious. In his younger years, Greg Munther was a Forest Service biologist, District Ranger and natural resource consultant.  He has been roaming the hills, streams and lakes of Montana continuously since 1976, with passions split between bowhunting, bird hunting and flyfishing.  He lives in Missoula with his wife, Sherry, of 35 years and their German Shorthair Pointer Lucy, and their 3 llamas. Greg is the BHA Montana Chapter Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen, meet Greg Munther.    

SUBSCRIBE: iTunes / RSS/Stitcher/Podbean/Android Okay friends! On this episode of Gritty Bowmen Mark Brownlee and myself hang out with our friend Greg Munther at the annual (BHA) Backcountry Hunters and Anglers Rendezvous. Greg is from the older generation… like he’s 72 years old. But he doesn’t seem that old--he’s still getting out and killing big horn sheep, coues deer, mule deer, and elk with his stickbow, which he’s been shooting his entire life. Greg tells us how he uses Llamas to help him get things done in the backcountry. He’s an inspiring person. And his passion for the outdoors and for hunting is infectious. In his younger years, Greg Munther was a Forest Service biologist, District Ranger and natural resource consultant.  He has been roaming the hills, streams and lakes of Montana continuously since 1976, with passions split between bowhunting, bird hunting and flyfishing.  He lives in Missoula with his wife, Sherry, of 35 years and their German Shorthair Pointer Lucy, and their 3 llamas. Greg is the BHA Montana Chapter Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen, meet Greg Munther.      

Ulrik Munther på svenska, Fröken Elvis tolkar just Elvis Presley och Di Leva med låt skriven efter terrorattack är veckans utmanare. Ulrik Munther - Han har samarbetat med Jonas Gardell trots att de nästan aldrig ses  och bytt till att sjunga på modersmålet i ”Nån Gång”. Han spelar dessutom kallblodig mördare på film men här är det en plats på Svensktoppen som lockar. Fröken Elvis – Fem Stockholmstjejer tolkar Elvis Presley på svenska i vispopform. De framför låtarna på en teaterscen men skivan är inspelad i en kohage i Lund. Nu är det ”A little Less Conversation” som fått en svensk text och då blivit ”Leverera” Di Leva – Han är han aktuell med en låt som han skrev dagarna efter terrorattacken i Paris.  I videon till låten har han kastat kaftanen till förmån för kostym och låten heter ”Ord Och Inga Visor” och är utmanare på Svensktoppen.

Lördagens Institutet handlar om hur mindfulness kan få delar av hjärnan att växa till sig, det handlar om gigantiska stjärnor som fanns i tidiga universum (men som drevs av mörk materia istället för fusion!), dessutom koras vinnaren i vetenskapsljudtävling Sounds of science.

Our theme this evening is Israel & Palestine with worship led by Alistair Hamill

Nu har det blivit dags att börja testa låtarna som kom Topp 3 i melodifestivalen. Först ut är Ulrik Munther som för övrigt slutat på bronsplats två år i rad i festivalen. Och de övriga utmanarna den 21 april är ... Veckans utmanare Miriam Bryant – Nya stjärnskottet Miriam släppte sin första uppmärksammade singel ”Finders Keepers” för exakt ett år sen. Nu är hon aktuell med ”Push Play”. Peter Jöback – Har redan sålt guld med singeln ”En Andra Chans”. Nästa vecka är han Fantomen på Operan på Broadway – den här veckan är han utmanare i Svensktoppen. Ulrik Munther – Ulrik har kommit trea i Melodifestivalen två år i rad. Blir det en bättre placering på Svensktoppen?

TG Positively Single, Pete Munther, Matt Pamer

TA How to Relate to Authority in our lives, Dan _ Tim Munther

F Building Strong Marriages and Families, Tony and Barb Munther