Podcasts about wamo

Tell your smart speaker to "Play One Oh Three One Austin"

Ask your smart speaker to "Play One Oh Three One Austin"

General Motors geeft de hoop op: het is in de ogen van de grootste autobouwer van de VS niet mogelijk om op grote schaal zelfrijdende taxi's te maken. Dat zou ze te veel geld kosten. Na 10 miljard dollar aan investeringen in dochterbedrijf Cruise, houdt het op met het ontwikkelen van hun robotaxi. Alle werkzaamheden van Cruise worden bij General Motors zelf aan boord gehaald, en het personeel gaat nu werken aan de rij-assistentie van de autobouwer. Je hoort in deze aflevering of de miljarden dollars aan investeringen verloren geld is. En we hebben het ook over Google. Dat claimt een nieuwe mijlpaal te hebben bereikt met hun nieuwste Quantum-chip, 'Willow'. Die chip deed er 5 minuten over om een berekening te maken, van iets waar de allerbeste computers die nu bestaan 10000000000000000000000000 jaar over zouden doen. We vertellen je ook over Zalando, dat denkt nog harder te kunnen groeien als ze concurrent About You hebben overgenomen. Daarom legt het ruim een miljard euro neer in een bod. En over de Amerikaanse inflatie, want economen en analisten hadden het eens een keer precies goed!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

General Motors geeft de hoop op: het is in de ogen van de grootste autobouwer van de VS niet mogelijk om op grote schaal zelfrijdende taxi's te maken. Dat zou ze te veel geld kosten. Na 10 miljard dollar aan investeringen in dochterbedrijf Cruise, houdt het op met het ontwikkelen van hun robotaxi. Alle werkzaamheden van Cruise worden bij General Motors zelf aan boord gehaald, en het personeel gaat nu werken aan de rij-assistentie van de autobouwer. Je hoort in deze aflevering of de miljarden dollars aan investeringen verloren geld is. En we hebben het ook over Google. Dat claimt een nieuwe mijlpaal te hebben bereikt met hun nieuwste Quantum-chip, 'Willow'. Die chip deed er 5 minuten over om een berekening te maken, van iets waar de allerbeste computers die nu bestaan 10000000000000000000000000 jaar over zouden doen. We vertellen je ook over Zalando, dat denkt nog harder te kunnen groeien als ze concurrent About You hebben overgenomen. Daarom legt het ruim een miljard euro neer in een bod. En over de Amerikaanse inflatie, want economen en analisten hadden het eens een keer precies goed!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Eric Van der Kleij, Partner, Edenbase, & Yanki Onen, CEO & Founder, wamoVenture capital firm Edenbase recently made its first FinTech investment, into digital business account provider wamo. Eric Van der Kleij of Edenbase (pictured) explains the thinking behind the fund's investment decision. We also hear from Yanki Onen, CEO and Founder of wamo, some 2 years on from our first conversation with the company. Here's the link to Onen talking about an SME ecosystem in 2022. This time Onen talks about how his company has grown over the last 2 years and about his plans for the future.

In this episode of the Pixilated Podcast we speak with Shaun Pierce, President at Pierce Events.A little more about Shaun.Shaun has produced events all over the country. He has worked in media, marketing and special events for over 30 years.Shaun planned celebrity events for The Motown Museum in Detroit, MI and went on to join Walt Disney Studios doing national field marketing & promotional events for Touchstone, Hollywood and Walt Disney Pictures.  Returning to Pittsburgh, PA Shaun joined radio station WWSW (3WS) in doing promotions, concerts and production. He has worked in marketing and promotions for Renda Broadcasting, Clear Channel, CBS Radio, Radio Disney, WAMO, WQED multimedia and Salem Communications.Throughout his career, Shaun has produced some of the largest and most successful events in Pittsburgh, PA. He developed and produced the popular Pittsburgh Pirates "Skyblast", Three Rivers Regatta, First Night, Party at the Point, Light Up Night and countless festivals,  marketing programs, concerts and events.  He was chosen by Pennsylvania Governor and former Homeland Security Director Tom Ridge to produce his inaugural festivities. He co-produced nationally televised fundraising television concerts for PBS, and produced a September 11th memorial live broadcast from the Pentagon in Washington, D.C.   Shaun is a member of Meeting Planners International and served on the formation committee of the Pittsburgh Chapter of the International Live Events Association where he served as Vice President of Communications.Pierce EventsWebsite - www.pierceevents.netLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/pierceevents/Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/pierceevents1Twitter - https://twitter.com/pierceeventsStay connected with us for more engaging content and updates by following us on social media: Instagram: @Pixilated Twitter: @Pixilated Facebook: @GetPixilated YouTube: @PixilatedPhotoBooth TikTok: @Pixilated LinkedIn: @Pixilated Looking to rent a photo booth for your next event? Head on over to www.Pixilated.com and use the Promo Code: PODCAST to save on your rental!

Dans son nouveau podcast trimestriel, l'Abcdr explore deux générations du rap français en analysant la musique de NeS et Wallace Cleaver avant de débattre du retour du groupe La Rumeur. À RETROUVER DANS CE PODCAST :00:00:00 Générique00:01:30 Partie 1 : NeS et Wallace Cleaver, la rime au service de l'émotion ?00:28:52 Le coup de coeur de Juliette : Asinine - Demi Moore / Vivement quoi00:31:05 Le coup de coeur de Raphaël : Un peu plus loin, autobiographie de Guilhem “Pone” Gallart00:35:00 Partie 2 : La Rumeur, chronique d'un retour01:09:37 Le coup de cœur de zo. : Wamo, Oddateee - Crime vs Crime01:12:54 Le coup de coeur de Inès : Elh Kmer - Vivaldi01:15:08 Le coup de coeur de Brice : Kaba, Hyas - Music 4 TeslaRÉSUMÉ :Avec leur musique exigeante sur la rime, ils ont su se faire remarquer par leur capacité à manier les mots dans leurs morceaux. Derrière leurs visières, NeS et Wallace Cleaver ont pourtant beaucoup de choses à raconter. Et ils l'ont prouvé avec un EP et une mixtape sortis respectivement en avril et juin dernier. Révélés ces derniers mois auprès d'un plus large public, les deux jeunes rappeurs semblent être - dans deux styles différents - constamment sur le fil entre techniques de rimes élaborées et désir de transmettre des émotions. Mais est-ce que ce numéro de funambule tient la route ? Cela faisait 4000 jours, soit 11 ans, que les fans de La Rumeur attendaient un nouvel album studio de la part du groupe. Et ce fut chose faite avec Comment rester propre ? nouvel album sorti en juin dernier, qui dépeint, forcément, notre époque, ses travers, et ses torts, et un peu aussi la vie d'Hamé, Ekoué et Le Bavar. Après la parenthèse cinématographique du groupe (qui se ré-ouvrira d'ailleurs en septembre avec la sortie du film Rue des dames) est-ce que cette longue attente valait le coup ? CRÉDITS : Un podcast animé par Brice Bossavie avec la participation de Raphaël, Inès, Juliette, et zo. Enregistré le 12 juillet 2023 au Studio Mélusine Moyens techniques : Abcdr du SonRéalisation : zo. Visuel : Pixels & Aromates Production : L'Abcdr du Son Hébergé par Acast. Visitez acast.com/privacy pour plus d'informations.

Jamal Woodson from WAMO joins Larry and Marty to continue the discussion on the Jason Aldean controversy. 

 Sly Jock of WAMO 107.3 joins Rick Dayton. WAMO held its Day of Peace on Sunday. How did the event go? Sly Jock said that a lot of KDKA listeners went to show support. 

Sly Jock of WAMO joins the show! WAMO is celebrating 75 years. WAMO's Day of Service is coming up THIS WEEKEND.  Sly details all you need to know for Sunday.

Yanki Onen, Chief Executive Officer, wamowamo, founded in 2021, claims to be committed to putting the human touch back into SME banking. CEO and founder Yanki Onen established the business as a reaction to his own frustration at the hurdles SMEs have to jump over to get banking services and credit. He speaks to Robin Amlôt of IBS Intelligence at Money 2020 about giving customers what they want. 

Hour 1 - WAMO's Jamal Woodson is our celebrity guest for the day! He and Larry discuss his social experiments and homelessness downtown.  

Happy first day of summer from the Big K Morning Show!

Jamal Woodson from WAMO joins the guys to discuss the shooting of a music producer/ former radio host in Wilkinsburg. He also talks about the root issues of gun violence - especially in youth. 

wamo'nun kurucusu Yankı Önen bizlerle!

Microsoft laying off 10,000 employees, Jamal Woodson from WAMO talks about a controversial billboard, and City Councilman Bruce Kraus will not seek reelection.

Mail bültenimize abone olmak için tıklayın. 5 Dakikada Teknoloji Gündemi Tarih: 4 Ocak 2023 Migros, Wamo'yu birlikte geliştirdiği Hergele Mobility'ye 2.3 milyon TL yatırım yaptı. e-Devlet'e girişte blockchain tabanlı dijital kimlik kullanımı için çalışmalar başladı. Yerli proptech girişimi Fizbot, 500 bin dolar yatırım aldı. -- Bubble Works Media orijinal içerikleri; Boş İşler 5 Dakikada Dünya Gündemi Efsane Astroloji Pandora'nın Kutusu Start Point e-mail: info@bubbleworksmedia.com https://www.bubbleworksmedia.com/

Podcast: The Lunar Society (LS 37 · TOP 2.5% )Episode: [Best] Bethany McLean - Enron, FTX, 2008, Musk, Frauds, & VisionariesRelease date: 2022-12-21This was one of my favorite episodes ever.Bethany McLean was the first reporter to question Enron's earnings, and she has written some of the best finance books out there. We discuss:* The astounding similarities between Enron & FTX,* How visionaries are just frauds who succeed (and which category describes Elon Musk),* What caused 2008, and whether we are headed for a new crisis,* Why there's too many venture capitalists and not enough short sellers,* And why history keeps repeating itself.McLean is a contributing editor at Vanity Fair (see her articles here) and the author of The Smartest Guys in the Room, All the Devils Are Here, Saudi America, and Shaky Ground.Watch on YouTube. Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform.Follow McLean on Twitter. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, please share. Helps out a ton.Timestamps(0:04:37) - Is Fraud Over? (0:11:22) - Shortage of Shortsellers(0:19:03) - Elon Musk - Fraud or Visionary?(0:23:00) - Intelligence, Fake Deals, & Culture(0:33:40) - Rewarding Leaders for Long Term Thinking(0:37:00) - FTX Mafia?(0:40:17) - Is Finance Too Big?(0:44:09) - 2008 Collapse, Fannie & Freddie(0:49:25) - The Big Picture(1:00:12) - Frackers Vindicated?(1:03:40) - Rating Agencies(1:07:05) - Lawyers Getting Rich Off Fraud(1:15:09) - Are Some People Fundamentally Deceptive?(1:19:25) - Advice for Big Picture ThinkersTranscriptThis transcript was autogenerated and thus may contain errors.Dwarkesh Patel: the rapid implosion of a company worth tens of billions of dollars. Insider dealing and romantic entanglements between sister companies, a politically generous c e o, who is well connected in Washington, the use of a company's own stock as its collateral, the attempt, the short-lived attempt to get bought out by a previous competitor, and the fraudulent abuse of mark to market account.[00:01:00] We are not talking about ftx, we are talking about Enron, which my guest today, Bethany McClean, uh, first broke the story of and has written an amazing and detailed book about, uh, called The Smartest Guys in the Room. And she has also written, uh, a book about the housing crisis. All the devils are here, a book about Fannie and Freddy Shaky Ground, and a book about fracking Saudi America, all of which we'll get into.She's, in my opinion, the best finance nonfiction writer out there, and I'm really, really excited to have this conversation now. So, Bethany, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Bethany McLean: Thank you so much for the, for the probably Undeserved Conference, for having me on the show. Dwarkesh Patel: My first question, what are the odds that Sbf read the smartest guys in the room and just followed it as a playbook, given the similarities there?Bethany McLean: You, you know, I, I love that idea. I have to, I have to admit, I guess I love that idea. I don't know. That would make me responsible for what, for what happened, . So maybe I don't love that idea. L let me take that back . [00:02:00] Anyway, but I, I, I actually think that, that, that even if he had read the book, it would never have occurred to him that, that there was a similarity because self-delusion is such a, Strong component of all of these stories of business gone wrong.It's very rare that you have one of the characters at the heart of this who actually understands what they're doing and understands that they're moving over into the dark side and thinks about the potential repercussions of this and chooses this path. Anyway, that's usually not the way these stories go.So it's entirely possible that Sbf studied Enron, knew all about it, and never envisioned that there were any similarities between that and what he was doing. Dwarkesh Patel: Oh, that's a fascinating, um, which I guess raises the question of what are we doing when we're documenting and trying to learn from books like yours?If somebody who is a, about to commit the same exact kind of thing can read that book and not realize that he's doing the same exact thing, is there something that just [00:03:00] prevents us from learning the lessons of history that we, we can never just, uh, get the analogy right, and we're just guided by our own delusions.Bethany McLean: Wasn't there a great quote that history rhymes, but it doesn't repeat. I'm Yeah. Relying on who it is who said that, but I think that's, that's absolutely true. Oh, I think it's important for all of us, those of us who are not gonna find ourselves at the center of, uh, giant fraud or, so, I hope, I think my time for that has passed.Maybe not you, but, um, I think it's important for all of us to understand what went wrong. And I, I do think these, I do think just there, there's a great value and greater understanding of the world without necessarily a practical payoff for it. So I think when something goes wrong on a massive societal level, it's really important to try to, to try to explain it.Human beings have needed narrative since the dawn of time, and we need narrative all, all, all the more now we need, we need to make sense of the world. So I like to believe. Process of making, trying to make sense of the world. , um, [00:04:00] has a value in, in and of itself. Maybe there is small, some small deterrence aspect to it in that I often think that if people understand more the process by which things go go wrong, that it isn't deliberate, that it's not bad people setting out to do bad things.It's human beings, um, at first convincing themselves even that they're doing the right thing and then ending up in a situation that they, they never meant to be in. And maybe on the margin that does, maybe on the margin that does, that does help because maybe it has deterred some people who, who would've started down that path, but for the fact that they now see that that's the, that's the usual path.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. That actually raises the next question I wanted to ask you. Bern Hobart, uh, he's a finance writer as well. He wrote a blog post, um, about, uh, I mean this was before FTX obviously, and he was talking about Enron and he said in the end, it actually looks like we fixed the precise problem. Enron represented.Nobody I know solely looks at gap [00:05:00] financials. Everybody ultimately models based on free cash flow, we're much more averse to companies that set up a deliberate conflict of interest between management and shareholders. And I guess there's a way in which you can read that and say, oh, it doesn't FTX prove I'm wrong.But, you know, there's another way you can look at it is that FTX deliberately set up outside the us. So there's a story to be told that actually we learned the lessons of Enron and, you know, uh, so remains obviously worked. Uh, that's why, you know, they were in The Bahamas and we haven't seen the scale fraud of that scale in, you know, the continental United States.Um, do, do you think that the FTX saga and I guess the absence of other frauds of that scale in America shows that. The regulations and this changed business and investment practices in the aftermath of Enron have actually. Bethany McLean: Well, I think they've probably worked in narrowly, written in, in the way in which the writer you quoted articulated, I think it would be very hard for the cfo, F O of a publicly traded company to set up other private [00:06:00] equity firms that he ran, that did all their business with his company.Because everybody would say That's Enron and it would be completely. On the nose. And so, and Sarbanes Oxley in the sense of, in the sense of helping to reign in corporate fraud of the sort that was practiced by Enron, which was this abuse of very specific accounting rules. Um, I think I, I, I think that worked.But you know, you say there hasn't been fraud on a scale like Enron up until perhaps f ftx, but you're forgetting the global financial crisis. Yeah. And then the end, the line between what happened at Enron. and, and what happened in the global financial crisis. It's not a matter of black and white. It's not a matter of, one thing was clear cut fraud and one thing great.We love these practices. Isn't this fantastic? This is the way we want business to operate. They're both somewhere in the murky middle. You know, a lot of what happened at Enron wasn't actually outright fraud. I've coined this phrase, legal fraud to describe, um, to describe what it is that, that, that, that happened at Enron.And a lot of what [00:07:00] happened in the global financial crisis was legal, hence the lack of prosecutions. But it's also not behavior that that leads to a healthy market or mm-hmm. , for that matter, a a a a healthy society. And so there's a reason that you had Sarbanes Oxley and what was it, eight short, short years later you had Dodd-Frank and so Riri broadly.I'm not sure Sarbanes actually did that much good. And what I mean by that is when President George Bush signed it into law in the Rose Garden, he gave this speech about how investors were now protected and everything was great and your, your ordinary investors could take comfort that the laws were meant to protect them from wrongdoing.And you compare that to the speech that President Barack Obama gave eight years later when he signed Don Frank into law in the Rose Garden. And it's remarkably similar that now ordinary investors can count on the rules and regulations keeping themself from people who are prey on their financial wellbeing.[00:08:00] And I don't think it was, it's, it's true in either case because our markets, particularly modern markets move and evolve so quickly that the thing that's coming out of left field to get you is never gonna be the thing you are protecting against. Mm. . Dwarkesh Patel: , but given the fact that Enron, as you say, was committing legal fraud, is it possible that the government, um, when they prosecuted skilling and Fastow and lay, they in fact, We're not, uh, they, they prosecuted them to a greater extent than the law as written at the time would have warranted.In other words, were, uh, was there something legally invalid in the, in this, in the quantity of sentence that they got? Is it possible? Bethany McLean: So that's a really, it, it's, it's a, I I get what you're asking. I think it's a really tricky question because I think in absolute terms, um, Enron needed to be prosecuted and needed to be prosecuted aggressively.And while I say it was legal fraud, that is for the most part, there was actually real fraud around, around, uh, but it's on the margin. It doesn't [00:09:00] entire, it doesn't explain the entirety of Enron's collapse. Much of what they did was using and abusing the accounting rules in order to create an appearance of economic reality.Nothing to do with actual, with actual reality. But then there was actual fraud in the sense that Andy Fasta was stealing money from these partnerships to benefit himself. And they were, if you believe, the core tenant of the prosecution, which was their, this agreement called Global Galactic that was signed by, that was between Andy fau and Jeff Skilling, where Jeff agreed that Andy's partnerships would never lose money.Then that invalidated all of the, all of the accounting, and that's the chief reason that that. That skilling was, was, was convicted, um, was that the jury believed the existence of this, of this, of this agreement that in, um, one set of insider stock sales, which, which we can talk about, which was also a really key moment relative to the, so in absolute terms, I don't know, it's, it's hard for me to, to say there was [00:10:00] such, Enron was such a, to a degree that is still surprising to me, such a, a watershed moment in our, in our country, far beyond business itself.it, it, it caused so much insecurity that about our retirements, our retirement assets safe. Can you trust the company where you work? That I think the government did, did have to prosecute aggressively, but relative to the financial crisis where a lot of people made off with a lot of money and never had to give any of it back, does it seem fair that, that, that Jeff Skilling went to jail for over a decade and no one involved in a major way in the financial crisis paid any price whatsoever?People didn't even really have to give up that much of the money they made then. Then it seems a little bit unfair. Yes, so I think it's, it's an absolute versus a relative Dwarkesh Patel: question. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, who do you think made more money? Um, the investment banks, uh, like, uh, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, um, from doing, [00:11:00] providing their services to Enron as the stock was going up, or Jim Chanos from shorting the stock?In absolute terms, who made more money? Bethany McLean: Oh, I think the investment banks for sure. I mean, they made, they made so much money in investment banking fees from, from, from Enron. But, you know, it's a good question. . , it's a good question actually, because I think Jim made a lot of money too, so, Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you've spoken about, I guess the usefulness and the shortage of short sellers des a sort of, uh, corrective on irrational exuberance.And I'm curious why you think that shortage exists in the first place. Like, if you believe in the efficient market hypothesis, you should think that, you know, if some company has terrible financials and implausible numbers, then people would be lining up to short it. And then you would never have a phenomenon like Enron.And so it's, it's, you know, it's so odd that you can. , you know, reporters who are basically ahead of the market in terms of predicting what's gonna happen. Uh, well, uh, how do you square that with like the efficient [00:12:00] market hypothesis? Well, do you Bethany McLean: believe in the efficient market hypothesis, ? Dwarkesh Patel: I, I, I'd like to, but I'm like trying to , trying to wrap my head around Enron.Bethany McLean: I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure how you. Can, unless you, unless you adopt Warren Buffett's point of view, and I'm gonna mangle the quote because, uh, but, but it's that the market in the short term is a voting machine in the long term. It's a weighing machine, right? Mm-hmm. , or is it the other way around? . Anyway, but the idea is that the market may be very efficient for a long, very inefficient, for a long period of time.But, but it does actually, rationality does actually work in, in, in the end. And I think I might believe that, but isn't it John Maynard Cas who said the market can remain irrational for a lot longer than you can remain solvent. And so I think that's true too. I think believing that the market is efficient and rational in the short term is just obviously wrongUm, but back to your question about short sellers, which is, which is interesting, you know, I think part of it is that there is still this, um, there certainly was a couple of [00:13:00] decades ago, and I think it still exists, this idea that. Owning stocks is Mom, American, and apple pie in shorting stocks somehow is bad and evil and rooting, rooting against America.And I remember going back to the Enron days, someone, people criticizing me, even other people in the press saying, but you took a tip from a short seller. They're biased. And I. , I would say. But, but, but wait, the analysts who have buy ratings on stocks and the portfolio managers who own those stocks, they're biased too.They want the stocks to go up. Everybody's biased. So the trick as a journalist is getting information from all sides and figuring out who you think is right and what makes sense. But it's not avoiding anybody with any bias. But it was really interesting that people saw the bias on the part of short sellers and did not see it on the part of, of, of Longs.And I think there is that preconception that exists broadly, that somehow you are doing something wrong and you're somehow rooting for a company's failure. And that this is, I don't know, anti-American if you, if, if you [00:14:00] short a stock. And so I think that's part of why there's, there's, there's a shortage of shortage of, of, of short sellers.Um, I think also, I mean, we've had. Incredible, unprecedented bull market for the last four decades as a result of falling interest rates, and especially in the decade before the pandemic hit, it was very, very difficult to make money shorting anything because everything went to the moon. Didn't matter if its numbers were good, if it was eventually unmasked to be somewhat fraudulent, , it stocks just went to the moon anyway.The riskier the better. And so it is only diehard short sellers that have managed to stick it out . Yeah, and I think, I think lastly, Jim Chano said this to me once, and I, I think it's true that he could find, dozens of people who were skilled enough to come, smart enough to come work for him.There's no shortage of that. People who are technically skilled and really smart, but being able to be contrarian for a long period of time, especially when the market is going against you, is a different sort [00:15:00] of person. It that it requires a completely different mindset to have everybody in the world saying, you're wrong to be losing money because the stock is continuing to go up and to be able to hold fast to your conviction.And I think that's another, uh, part of the explanation for why there are fewer short sellers. Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah, and that raised an interesting question about. Uh, venture capital, for example, where, or private markets in general? Um, at least in the public markets, there's shorting maybe in shortage, but it, it is a possible mechanism, whereas, uh, I'm a programmer.So, you know, if, if like a one guy thinks the company's worth a hundred million dollars and everybody else thinks it's not, you know, the company will still be, uh, the price will still be said by the, you know, the person who's a believer. Um, does that increase the risk of some sort of bubble in venture capital and in technology?Um, and I guess in private markets generally, if they're, they're not public, is that something you worry about that they're, they will be incredible bubbles built up if there's a lot of money that's floating around in these Bethany McLean: circles. . Well, I think we're seeing that now, [00:16:00] right? And I don't think it's a coincidence that FTX and Theranos were not publicly traded companies, right?Mm-hmm. . Um, there's a certain sort of, uh, black box quality to these companies because people aren't charting them and aren't, aren't, and aren't, you know, whispering to journalists about that. That there's something wrong here and there aren't publicly available financials for people to dig through and look, look, and look at the numbers.So now I don't think that's a coincidence. And I do think this gigantic move into private assets has been, um, probably not great for the, for the, for the, for the. for the, for the safety of the system. And you'd say, well, it's just institutional investors who can afford to lose money who are losing money.But it's really not because institutional investors are just pension fund money. Mm-hmm. and in some cases now mutual fund money. So that distinction that the people who are investing in this stuff can afford to lose it is not really true. Um, so I don't, I don't like that rationalization. I think we're gonna see how that plays out.There was [00:17:00] just a really good piece in the Economist about private equity marks on their portfolio companies and how they are still looked to be much higher than what you would think they should be given the carnage in the market. And so all of what, what actually things are really worth in private markets, both for venture capital firms and for private equity firms, Is absent another, another bubble starting, starting in the markets.I think we're gonna see how that plays out over, over the next year. And it might be a wake up call for, for a lot of people. Um, you know, all that, all that said, it's an interesting thing because investors have been very complicit in this, right? In the sense that a lot of investors are absolutely delighted to have prep, to have their, their private, um, their private investments marked at a high level.They don't have to go to the committee overseeing the investments and say, look, I lost 20% of your money the way they might, um, if, if the numbers were public. And so that the ability of these of private investors to smooth as they call it, the, the, the returns is, is it's [00:18:00] been, it's been part of the appeal.It hasn't been a negative, it's been a positive. And so I would say that investors who wanted this moving are. Art might be getting what they deserve except for the pointing made earlier that it isn't, it isn't their money. It's, it's the money of, of teachers and firefighters and individual investors a around the country, and that's, that's problematic.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Being in the world of technology and being around people in it has. made me, somewhat shocked when I read about these numbers from the past. For example, when I'm reading your books and they're detailing things that happened in the nineties or the two thousands, and then you realize that the salary that Hank Paulson made a c e o of Goldman, or that skilling made as, you know, um, c e o of Enron, you know, I, it's like I have friends who are my age, like 22 year olds who are raising seed rounds, , that are as big as like these people's salaries.And so it just feels like the, these books were, you have $50 billion frauds or, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars of collapse and the individuals there, um, it just feels like they, it's missing a few zeros, uh, [00:19:00] because of the delusion of the private markets. But, um, but speaking of short sellers and speaking of private equity, um, I think it'd be interesting to talk about sbf.So, you know, your 2018 Vanity Fair article I thought was really interesting about, you know, sbf factory in Buffalo H How, how do you think back on Tesla and sbf now, given the fact that. The stock did continue to rise afterwards, and the factory, I believe, was completed and it's, I hired the 1500 or so people that had promised New York State, uh, is sbf just a fraud?Who can pull it off? And so he's a visionary. How, how do you think about sbf in the aftermath? Bethany McLean: So I don't think that's right about Buffalo and I have to look, but I don't think they ended up, I mean, the Solar City business that Tesla has pretty much collapsed. I don't think people haven't gotten their roofs.There was just a piece about how they're canceling some of their roof installations. So sbf has repeatedly made grand visions about that business that haven't played out. And I will check this for you post the podcast, but I don't think [00:20:00] if there is employment at that factory in, in Buffalo, it's not because they're churn out solar, solar, solar products that are, that are, that are doing.What was originally promised. So I guess I, I think about that story in a, in a couple of ways. It definitely, um, it was not meant to be a piece about Tesla. It was meant to be a piece that shown a little bit of light on how sbf operates and his willingness to flout the rules and his reliance on government subsidies, despite the fact that he, um, presents himself as this libertarian free, free, free market free marketeer, and his willingness to lie to, to, to, on some level enrich himself, which also runs counter to the Elon sbf narrative that he doesn't care about making money for, for himself.Because the main reason for Teslas to by Solar City was that Solar City had the main reason, was it Tes, that was, that Solar City had, that, that sbf and his, and his and his relatives had extended the these loans to Solar City that were gonna go. [00:21:00] There were gonna be lo all the money was gonna be lost at Solar City when bankrupt.And by having Tesla buy it, sbf was able to bail himself out, um, as, as as well. And I also think a good reason for the, for the, for, and it brings us to the present time, but a reason for the acquisition was that sbf knows that this image of himself as the invincible and vulnerable who can always raise money and whose companies always work out in the end, was really important.And if Solar City had gone bankrupt, it would've cast a big question mark over over sbf, over over the sbf narrative. And so I think he literally couldn't afford to let Solar City go bankrupt. Um, all of that said, I have, I have been, and was I, I was quite skeptical of Tesla and I thought about it in, in, in, in.And I always believed that the product was great. I just, mm-hmm. wasn't sure about the company's money making potential. And I think that, that, it's something I started thinking about, um, background, the Solar City time, maybe earlier, but this line, something I've talked about [00:22:00] before. But this line between a visionary and a fraudster.You know, you think that they're on two opposite ends of the spectrum, but in reality they're where the ends of the circle meet. Characteristics of one. One has that many of the characteristics of the other. And sometimes I think the only thing that really separates the two is that the fraudster is able to keep getting mo raising money in order to get through the really difficult time where he or she isn't telling the truth.And then they, that person goes down in history as a visionary. Um, but because no one ever looks back to the moment in time when they were lying, the fraudster gets caught in the middle. Um, so Enron's Lo lost access to to the capital markets lost AC access to funding as the market collapsed after the.com boom.And people began to wonder whether skilling was telling the truth about Enron's broadband business. And then there were all the disclosures about Andy fasa partnerships if Enron had been able to continue raising money, Business of Enron's called Enron Broadband might well have been Netflix. It was Netflix ahead of its time.So Enron just got caught in the middle and all [00:23:00] the fraud, all the fraud got exposed . Um, but that's not because Jeff Skilling wasn't a visionary who had really grand plans for, for, for, for the future. So I think sbf falls somewhere in that spectrum of, of, of fraudster and visionary. And what's gonna be really interesting why I said that this, we bring it to the present time about what happens to the mu narrative.If something fails is what happens. Yeah. Is as the world watch watches Twitter implode, um, what does that mean then for the Elon sbf narrative overall? Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Um, going back to the Smartest Guys is the Room, the title obviously suggests something about. The, I guess in general, the ability and the likelihood of very smart people committing fraud or things of that sort.Um, but you know, Begar Jones has this book called Hi Mind, where he talks about how the smarter people are more likely to cooperate in prisoners dilemma type situations. They have longer time preference. And one of the things you've written about is the problem in corporate America is people having shorter, [00:24:00] um, uh, you know, doing two too big time discounting.So, uh, given that trend we see in general of greater Cooperativeness, um, and other kinds of traits of more intelligent people, do you think the reason we often find people like S B F and skilling running big frauds just by being very intelligent, is it just that on, on average smarter people, maybe less likely to commit fraud, but when they do commit fraud, they do it at such garat scales and they're able to do it at such gar scales that it just brings down entire empires?How, how, how do you think about the relationship between intelligence and fraud? . Bethany McLean: That's interesting. Um, I'm not sure I know a coherent answer to that. Um, smartest guys in the room as a title was a little bit tongue in cheek. It wasn't meant to say, these guys actually are the smartest guys in the room. It was, it, it was a little bit, it was a little bit ironic, but that doesn't take away from the really good question that you asked, which is what, what, what is that relationship?I, I mean, I think if you look at the history of corporate fraud, you are not going to find unintelligent people having [00:25:00] been the masterminds behind this. You're gonna find really, really, really smart, even brilliant people having, having, having been, been behind it, maybe some at part of that is this linkage between the visionary and the fraud star that so many of these, of these corporate frauds are people who have qualities of the visionary and to.The qualities of, of a visionary, you have to have a pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty high intelligence. Um, and I do think so many of these stories are, are about then self delusion. So I don't think smart people are any less likely to suffer from self delusion than dumb people. And they're probably more likely to, because you can rationalize, you know, the smart person's ability to rationalize just about anything they wanna rational rationalize is pretty profound.Whereas perhaps someone who doesn't have quite the same, the same brain power isn't gonna be able to create a narrative under which their actions are blameless and they're doing the right thing. So I think sometimes, so maybe there is some sort of relationship [00:26:00] there that somebody more qualified than I am would have to study between smart people's ability to, to, to rationalize just about anything as a way of, as part of the path to self delusion and part of the path by which these things happen.Yeah, that's completely, that's completely , that's Bethany theory. There's absolutely nothing to back that . I'm just Dwarkesh Patel: well clear. Let's do some more speculation. So, um, one of the things, uh, John Ray talked about in his testimony, um, was it two days ago where he said that, you know, FTX had done $5 billion of investments and deals in the last year, and most of those investments were worth a fraction of the value that FTX paid for them.And we see this also in, obviously in Enron, right? With, uh, broadband and with, um, ul, or is that how pronounce it, but basically their international department. Yeah. Um, what is this, uh, this obsession with deal making for its own sake? Is that to appease investors and make them think a lot's going on, is that because of [00:27:00] the hubris of the founder, of just wanting to set up a big empire as fast as possible, even if you're getting a bad sticker price?What, why do we see this pattern of just, you know, excessive deal making for its own sake? Bethany McLean: That's an interesting question too. I'm not sure that that's, um, limited to companies that go splat dramatically. There's a lot of, a lot of deal making in, in corporate America has that same frenzied quality. Um, I haven't seen an updated study on, on this in a, in a long time, but, you know, I began my career working as an analyst in an m and a department at at at Goldman Sachs.And. Definitely deals are done for the sake of doing deals. And I once joked that synergies are kind of like UFOs. A lot of people claim to have seen them, but there's no proof that they actually exist. , and again, I haven't seen an updated study on, on, on this, but there was one years back that showed that most m and a transactions don't result in increased value for shareholders.And most synergies, most promised synergies never materialize. [00:28:00] Just getting bigger for the sake of getting bigger and doing deals for the short term value of showing Wall Street a projection. That earnings are gonna be so much higher even after the cost of the debt that you've taken on. And that they're these great synergies that are gonna come about from, from combining businesses.So I don't know that either the frenzy deal doing or deal doing deals gone wrong is, um, solely limited to people who are committing fraud. , I think it's kinda across the spectrum. , . Dwarkesh Patel: Um, um, well one, one thing I find interesting about your books is how you detail that. And correct me if this is the wrong way to read them, but that, uh, incentives are not the only thing that matter.You know, there there's this perception that, you know, we've set up bad incentives for these actors and that's why they did bad things. But also, um, the power of one individual to shape a co co company's culture and the power of that culture to enable bad behavior, whether scaling at Enron or with Clarkson Right at Moody's.Yeah. Um, is that a good, good way of reading your books or how, how do you think [00:29:00] about the relative importance of culture and incentive? Bethany McLean: I think that's really fair. But incentives are part of culture, right? If, if you've set up a culture where, where how you're valued is what you get paid, I think it's a little, it's a little difficult to separate those two things out because, because the, the incentives do help make the culture, but for sure culture is incredibly, um, incredibly compelling.I've often thought and said that if I had, when I was leaving my short lived career in investment banking, if I had, if I had gotten in some of the head hunters I was talking to, if one of them had said, there's this great, really energetic, interesting energy company down in Houston, , why don't interview there?If I had gone there, would I have been a whistleblower or would I have been a believer? And I'd like to believe I would've been a whistleblower, but I think it's equally likely that I would've been a believer. Culture is so strong. It creates this. What's maybe a miasma that you can't see outside?I remember a guy I talked to who's a trader at Enron, really smart guy, and he [00:30:00] was like, after the, after the bankruptcy, he said, of course, if we're all getting paid based on creating reported earnings and there's all this cash going out the door in order to do these deals that are creating reported earnings, and that's the culture of the entire firm, of course it's not gonna work economically.He said, I never thought about it. . It just didn't, it didn't, it didn't occur to me. And I think the more compelling the CEO o the more likely you are to have that kind of mass delusion. I mean, there's a reason cult exist, right? . We, we are as human beings, remarkably susceptible to.Visionary leaders. It's just, it's the way the human brain is wired. We, we wanna believe, and especially if somebody has the ability to put a vision forward, like Jeff Gilling did at Enron, like Elizabeth Holmes did it Theranos like SPF F did, where you feel like you are in the service of something greater by helping this, vision, , actualize then, then you're, particularly susceptible.And I think that is the place where [00:31:00] incentives don't quite explain things. That is, there is this very human desire to matter, to do something important. Mm-hmm to be doing something that's gonna change the world. And when somebody can tap into that desire in people that feeling that what you're doing isn't just work in a paycheck and the incentives you have, but I mean, I guess it is part of the incentive, but that you're part of some greater good.That's incredibly powerful. Yeah. Dwarkesh Patel: It's what we all speaking of. We all wanna matter. . Yeah. Speaking of peoples psychology, uh, crime and punishment, underrated or overrated as a way to analyze the psychology of people like scaling and S B F or maybe SBF specifically because of the utilitarian nature of SB F'S crime?Um, Bethany McLean: I think it's, I think it's underrated, overrated. I'm not sure anybody. , I'm not sure anybody has ever proven that jail sentences for white collar criminals do anything to deter subsequent white collar crime. Mm-hmm. , and I think one part of this is the self delusion that I've, that I talked about. Nobody thinks, [00:32:00] oh, I'm doing the same thing as Jeff Skilling did at Enron, and if I, and if I do this, then I too might end up in jail.Therefore, I don't wanna do this. I just don't think that's the way the, the, the, the, the thought process works. I think Elizabeth Holmes at Theranos, probably for the most part, convinced herself that this was going to work, and that if you just push forward and push hard enough and keep telling people what they wanna hear and keep being able to raise money, it's gonna work.You know, if. . If, if you pause to think, well, what if it doesn't work and I've lied and I go to jail, then, then you'd stop right, right then and there. So I think that, I think that, that I'm, I'm not, I'm not sure it's much of a deterrent. I remember, and partly I'm, I'm biased because I remember a piece, my co-author Peter Alkin, and I wrote out right after Jess Gilling and Kenley were, were convicted and can lay, we're we're convicted.And we wrote a piece for Fortune in which we said that the entire world has changed. Now that corporate executives are, um, are, are put on high alert that behavior in the gray area will no longer be tolerated and that it will be aggressively prosecuted. And this was spring of [00:33:00] 2006 and the events that caused the global financial crisis were pretty well underway.It didn't. Do much to prevent the global financial crisis. Mm-hmm. , Enron's, Enron's jail time, didn't do anything to present, prevent, Elizabeth Holmes doesn't seem to have done anything to change what Sbf was doing. So I just, I, I just, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure, I'm sure a psychologist or somebody who specializes in studying white color crime could probably make a argument that refutes everything I said and that shows that has had a deterring effect.But I just, I just don't think that people who get themselves into this situation, con, con, consciously think, this is what I'm doing. Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Um, speaking of other incentives, stock options, uh, you've spoken about how that creates short-term incentives for the executives who are making decisions. If you wanted to set up an instrument that aligned an executive or a leader's compensation with the long-term performance of a company, what would that look like?W would you have the options of less than 10 years instead of a [00:34:00] year? H how would you design it? How do you usually design a compensation scheme to award long-term thinking? Bethany McLean: If I could do that, I should ru rule the world . I think that very sweet. I think that is one of the really tough, um, problems confronting boards or anybody who is determining anybody who's determining stock options and that almost anybody who's determining compensation and that most compensation schemes seem to have really terrible unintended consequences.They look really good on paper. And then as they're implemented, it turns out that there was a way in which they accomplished exactly the opposite of, uh, thing the people who designing them wanted, wanted them to accomplish. I mean, if you think back to the advent of stock options, what could sound better?Right. Giving management a share of the company such that if, if, if shareholders did well, that they'd do well, nobody envisioned the ways in which stock options could be repriced. The ways in which meeting earnings targets could lead to gaming the ways in which the incentive of stock-based [00:35:00] compensation could lead to people trying to get anything they could in order to get the stock price higher and cash out when they're, as soon as their stock options vested.So, and even there was, there was, the whole valiant saga was fascinating on this front because the people who designed Mike Pearson's compensation package as ceo e o Valiant, they were convinced that this was absolutely the way to do it. And he got bigger and bigger, um, stock option incentives for hitting certain, for having the stock achieve certain levels.But of course, that creates this incredible bias to just get the stock to go up no matter, no matter what else you do. Um, it does seem to me that vesting over the long term is. is, is a much better way to go about things. But then do you create incentives for people to play games in order to get the stock lower at, at various points where there's about to be a stock optional board so they have a better chance of having directions be, be worth, be worth something over the long term.And do you, particularly on Wall Street there is this, or in firms where this sort of stuff matters the most? There [00:36:00] is this, there was this clearing out of dead wood that happened where people got paid and they got outta the way and made way for younger people. And I don't know, it was a harsh culture, but maybe it made sense on some level.And now at least I've been told with much longer vesting periods, you have people who don't wanna let go. And so you have more of a problem with people who should have retired, stick sticking around instead of in, in, instead of clearing out. And then it also becomes a question, How much money is, is enough.So if somebody is getting millions of dollars in short-term compensation and then they have a whole bunch more money tied up in long-term compensation, do the long-term numbers matter? At what point do they, do they, do they really matter? I mean, if you gave me $5 million today, I'm not so sure I'd really care if I were getting another $5 million in 10 years.Right. ? Yeah. So, so I think all of that is, is it, it's, I'm not, I'm not sure there's a perfect compensation system. All things considered though, I think longer term is, is probably better, [00:37:00] but. Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah, I didn't think about that downside of the long investing period. That's so interesting there. I guess there is no free lunch.Uh, so with Enron, um, it, it was clear that there was a lot of talent at the firm and that you had these companies and these trading firms launch at the aftermath by people who left Enron, kinder Morgan and John Arnold's, um, uh, Sintas, uh, that were wildly profitable and did well. Do you think we'll see the same thing with FTX, that while Sbf himself and maybe the, his close cadre were frauds, there actually was a lot of great trading and engineering talent there that are gonna start these very successful firms in the aftermath.Bethany McLean: That's, that's interesting. And just, just for the sake of clarification, kinder Morgan was actually started years before Enron's collapsed, when Rich Kinder, who was vying with Jeffs skilling in a sense, to become Chief Operating Officer. Um, Ken Lay, picked Jeffs skilling and Kinder left. Mm-hmm. and took a few assets and went to create Kinder, kinder Morgan.But your overall point, I'm just clarifying your overall point holds, there were a lot of people who [00:38:00] left Enron and went on to do, to have pretty, pretty remarkable careers. I think the answer with ftx, I bet there will be some for sure. But whether they will be in the crypto space, I guess depends on your views on the long-term viability of, of, of the crypto space.And I have never , it's funny is crypto exploded over the last couple of years. I was, I've been working on this book about the pandemic and it's been busy and difficult enough that I have not lifted my head to, to think about much else. And I always thought, I don't get it. I don't understand , I mean, I understand the whole argument about the blockchain being valuable for lots of transactions and I, I get that, but I never understood crypto itself and I thought, well, I just need to, as soon as this book is done, I just need to put a month into understanding this because it's obviously an important, important enough part of our world that I need to figure it out.So now I think, oh, Okay, maybe I didn't understand it for a reason and maybe, um, maybe there isn't anything to understand and I've just saved myself a whole life of crime because it's all gone. And you have [00:39:00] people like Larry Fink at BlackRock saying, whole industry is gonna implode. It's done. And certainly with the news today, this morning of finances auditor basically saying We're out.Um, I, I don't, I don't know how much of it was, how much of it was, is, was a Ponzi scheme. You might know better than I do. And so I don't know what's left after this whole thing implodes. It's a little bit like, there is an analogy here that when Enron imploded, yes, a lot of people went on to start other successful businesses, but the whole energy trading business is practiced by kind of under capitalized, um, um, energy firms went away and that never came back.Yeah. And so I, I, I don't, I don't know, I'm, it'll be, I, I don't know. What do you. The Dwarkesh Patel: time to be worried will be when Bethany McLean writes an article titled Is Bitcoin Overvalued for the Audience. My Moments on That ? Yeah, for the audience that, that was, I believe the first skeptical article about Enron's, um, stock price.Yeah. Uh, and it was titled [00:40:00] Is Enron Overvalued. In aftermath understated, , title. But , Bethany McLean: , I joked that that story should have won, won, won awards for the NICU title and business journalism history. , given that the company was bankrupt six months later was overpricedDwarkesh Patel: Um, uh, well, let me ask a bigger question about finance in general. So finance is 9% of gdp, I believe. How much of that is the productive use and thinking and allocation of the, uh, the capital towards their most productive ends? And how much of that is just zero sum or negative sum games? Um, if, if you had to break that down, like, is 9% too high, do you think, or is it just.I think it's Bethany McLean: too high. I have no idea how to think about breaking it down to what the proper level should be. But I think there are other ways to think about how you can see that in past decades it hasn't been at the right level when you've had all sorts of smart kids. Um, Leaving, leaving business school and leaving college and heading into [00:41:00] finance and hedge funds and private equity is their career of choice.I think that's a sign that that finance is too big when it's sucking up too much of, of, of the talent of the country. Um, and when the rewards for doing it are so disproportionate relative to the rewards of of, of doing other things. Um, the counter to that is that there've also been a lot of rewards for starting businesses.And that's probably, I think, how you want it to be in a, in a product. In a productive economy. So I think the number is, is too high. I don't know how to think about what it should be other than what a, actually, a former Goldman Sachs partner said this to me when I was working on all the devils are here, and she said that finance is supposed to be like the, the substrata of our world.It's supposed to be the thing that enables other things to happen. It's not supposed to be the world itself. So the, the role of a financial system is to enable businesses to get started, to provide capital. That's what it's supposed to be. It's the lubricant that enables business, but it's not supposed to be the thing itself.Right. And it's become the thing itself. [00:42:00] You've, you've, you've, you've, you've got a problem. Um, um, and I think the other, Dwarkesh Patel: there's your article about crypto , that paragraph right there. . Bethany McLean: There you go. That's, that's a good, um, and I think, I think the other way, you, you, you can see, and perhaps this is way too simplistic, but the other way I've thought about it is that how can it be if you can run a hedge fund and make billions of dollars from, and have five people, 10 people, whatever it is, versus starting a company that employs people mm-hmm.and changes a neighborhood and provides jobs and, you know, provides a product that, that, that, that, that improves people's lives. It, it is a shame that too much of the talent and such a huge share of the financial rewards are going to the former rather than the latter. And that just can't mean good things for the future.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, when people criticize technology, for example, for the idea that, you know, these people who would've been, I don't know, otherwise teachers or something, they're, you know, making half a million dollars at Google. [00:43:00] Um, and I think like when I was in India, people were using Google Maps to get through the streets in Mumbai, which is, which is unimaginable to me before going there that, you know, you would be able to do that with, um, a service built out of Silicon Valley.And so, Yeah, I think that actually is a good allocation of capital and talent. I, I'm not, I'm not sure about finance. Um, yeah, Bethany McLean: I think I, I, I agree with you. I think there are other problems with Google and with the, the social media giants, but, but they are real businesses that employ people, that make products that have had, uh, huge.Um, impact on on, on people's, on people's lives. So in, in that sense, it's very different than a private equity firm, for instance, and especially private equity, even more so than hedge funds draws my ire. Mm-hmm. , because I think one of the reasons they, that it, they've been able to make part of the financialization of our economy has been due to super, super low interest rates and low interest rates that have enabled so many people to make so much money in finance are not, they're just a gift.It wasn't because these people were uniquely smart, they just [00:44:00] found themselves in a great moment in time. And the fact that they now think they're really smart because money makes me crazy. Dwarkesh Patel: Um, are Fanny and Freddy America special purpose entities? Are they our Alameda? It's just the way we hide our debt and uh, that's interesting.Yeah. Bethany McLean: Well, I guess we, you know what? I don't know anymore because, so I last wrote about them when was it in 2016 and I don't know now. No, you're right. Their, their debt is still off, off, off balance sheet. So Yeah, in a lot of ways they, they were. . I would argue though that the old Fanny and Freddy were structured more honestly than, than the new Fanny and Freddy, that it really is conservatorship that have made them, um, that have made them America's off balance sheet entities, because at least when they were their own independent entities.Yes, there was this odd thing known as the implicit guarantee, which is when you think about, back to your point about efficient markets, how can you possibly believe there's an as such a thing as an efficient market when their [00:45:00] Fanny and Freddy had an implicit guarantee, meaning it wasn't real. There was no place where it was written down that the US government would bail Fanny and Freddie out in a crisis, and everybody denied that it existed and yet it did exist.Yeah. Dwarkesh Patel: No, but we, I feel like that confirms the official market hypothesis, right? The, the market correctly, they thought that mortgages backed by Fannie and Freddy would have governments. Uh, okay, okay. You might be father Bethany McLean: and they did . You might be right. I, I, I think what I was getting at you, you might be right.I think what I was getting at is that it is such a screwed up concept. I mean, how can you possibly, when I first, when people were first explaining this to me, when I first read about Fanny and Freddie, I was like, no, no, wait. This is American capitalism . This is, no, wait. What? I don't, I don't understand . Um, um, so yeah, but I, I, I, I think that Fanny and Freddie, at least with shareholders that were forced to bear some level of, of the risks were actually a more honest way of going about this whole screwed up American way of financing mortgages than, than the current setup is.Dwarkesh Patel: What [00:46:00] is the future of these firms? Or are they just gonna say in conservatorship forever? Or is there any developments there? Well, what's gonna happen to them? Bethany McLean: The lawsuit, the latest lawsuit that could have answered that in some ways ended in a mistrial. Um, I don't think, I don't, I don't think unfortunately anybody in government sees any currency in, and I mean, currency in the broad sense, not in the literal sense of money in, in taking this on.And unfortunately, what someone once said to me about it, I think remains true and it's really depressing, but is that various lawmakers get interested in Fannie and Freddy. They engage with it only to figure out it's really, really goddamn complicated. Mm-hmm. and that, and that any kind of solution is gonna involve angering people on one side of the aisle or another and potentially angering their constituent constituents.And they slowly back away, um, from doing anything that could, that, that could affect change. So I think we have a really unhealthy situation. I don't think it's great for these two [00:47:00] entities to be in conservatorship, but at this point, I'm not sure it's gonna change. Dwarkesh Patel: Yep. Speaking of debt and mortgages, um, so total household debt in the United States has been, uh, climbing recently after it's, it's like slightly d decline after 2008, but I think in quarter three alone it increased 350 billion and now it's at 16.5 trillion.Uh, the total US household debt, should we worried about this? Are, are, are we gonna see another sort of collapse because of this? Or what, what should we think about this? Bethany McLean: I don't know. I don't know how to think about that because it's too tied up in other things that no one knows. Are we going to have a recession?How severe is the recession going to be? What is the max unemployment rate that we're gonna hit if we do, if we do have a recession? And all of those things dictate how to, how to think about that number. I. Think consumer debt is embedded in the bowels of the financial system in the same way mortgages were.And in the end, the, the, the [00:48:00] problem with the financial crisis of 2008, it wasn't the losses on the mortgages themselves. It was the way in which they were embedded in the plumbing of the financial system. Mm-hmm. and ways that nobody understood. And then the resulting loss of confidence from the fact that nobody had understood that slash lies had been told about, about that.And that's what caused, that's what caused everything to, to collapse. Consumer debt is a little more visible and seeable and I, I don't think that it has that same, um, that same opaque quality to it that, that mortgage backed securities did. I could be, I could be wrong. I haven't, I haven't, I haven't dug into it enough, enough to understand enough to understand that.But you can see the delinquencies starting to climb. Um, I mean, I guess you could on, on, on mortgages as well, but there was this, there was this profound belief with mortgages that since home prices would never decline, there would never be losses on these instruments because you could always sell the underlying property for more than you had [00:49:00] paid for it, and therefore everything would be fine.And that's what led to a lot of the bad practices in the industry is that lenders didn't think they had to care if they were screwing the home buyer because they always thought they could take the home back and, and, and, and, and make more money on it. And consumer debt is, is unsecured. And so it's, it's, it's different.I think people think about it differently, but I'd have. I'd have to, I'd have to do some more homework to understand where consumer debt sits in the overall architecture of the financial industry. Dwarkesh Patel: I, I, I'm really glad you brought up this theme about what does the overall big picture look like? I feel like this is the theme of all your books that people will be, So obsessed with their subsection of their job or, or that ar area that they won't notice that, um, broader trends like the ones you're talking about.And in Enron it's like, why, why, why do we have all these special purpose entities? What is the total debt load of Enron? Um, or with the, you know, mortgage back securities a similar kind of thing, right? What, what, uh, maybe they weren't correlated in the past, [00:50:00] but what's that? Do we really think that there's really no correlation, um, uh, between, uh, delinquencies across the country?Um, so that, that kind of big picture, think. Whose job is that today? Is it journalists? Is it short sellers? Is it people writing on ck? Who's doing that? Is it anybody's job? Is, is it just like, uh, an important role with nobody assigned to it? Bethany McLean: I think it's the latter. I think it's an important role with nobody, with nobody assigned to it, and there there is a limit.I mean, , I hate to say this, it is not, uh, um, it is not an accident that many of my books have been written. That's probably not fair. It's not true of my book un fracking, but that some of my books have been written after the calamity happened. So they weren't so much foretelling the calamity as they were unpacking the calamity after it happened, which is a different role.And as I said at the start of our conversation, I think an important one to explain to people why this big, bad thing took, took place. But it's not prediction, I don't know, as people that were very good at, at prediction, um, they tried [00:51:00] to set up, what was it called? In the wake of the global financial crisis, they established this thing called fsoc, and now I'm forgetting what the acronym stands for.Financial Security Oversight Committee. And it's supposed to be this, this body that does think about these big picture. That thinks about the ways, the ways an exam, for example, in which mortgage backed securities were, um, were, were, were, were, were, were, were repopulating through the entire financial system and ways that would be cause a loss to be much more than a loss.That it wouldn't just be the loss of money and that security, it would echo and magnify. And so that there are people who are supposed to be thinking about it. But I think, I think it's, it's, it's really hard to see that and. In increasingly complex world, it's even, it's even harder than it was before, because the reverberations from things are really hard to map out in, in, in advance, and especially when some part of those reverberations are a loss of confidence, then all bets [00:52:00] are off because when confidence cracks, lots of things fall apart.But how do you possibly analyze in any quantitative way the the risk that that confidence will collapse? Mm-hmm. . So I think it's, I think, I think, I think it's difficult. That said, and of course I am talking my own book here, I don't think that the lack of the, the increased financial problems of journalism really help matters in that respect, because in an ideal world, you want a lot of people out there writing and thinking about various pieces of this, and then maybe somebody can come along and see the.Pieces and say, oh my God, there's this big picture thing here that we all need to be thinking about. But there's, there's a kind of serendipity in the ability to do that one, that one that the chances, I guess the best way to say that is the chances of that serendipity are dramatically increased by having a lot of people out there doing homework, um, on the various pieces of the puzzle.And so I think in a world, particularly where local news has been decimated mm-hmm. , um, the [00:53:00] chances of that sort of serendipity are, are definitely lower. And people may think, oh, it doesn't matter. We still got national news. We've got the Washington Post, we've got the Wall Street Journal, we've got the New York Times.Um, I would love to have somebody do a piece of analysis and go back through the New York Times stories and see how many were sparked by lp, a piece in the local paper that maybe you wouldn't even notice from reading the New York Times piece, because it'd be in like the sixth paragraph that, oh yeah, credit should go to this person at this local paper who started writing about this.But if you no longer have the person at the local paper who started writing about this, You know, it's, it's, it's, it's less likely that the big national piece gets written. And I think that's a part of the implosion of local news, that people, a part of the cost of the implosion of local news that people don't really understand the idea that the national press functions at, at the same level, um, without local news is just not true.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. And, but even if you have the local news, and I, that's a really important point, but even if you have that local news, there still has to be somebody whose job it is to synthesize it all together. And [00:54:00] I'm curious, what is the training that requires? So you, I mean, your training is, you know, math and English major and then working at working in investment banking.Um, is that the, uh, I mean, obviously the anecdotal experience then equals one, seems that that's great training for synthesizing all these pieces together. But what is the right sort of education for somebody who is thinking about the big picture? Bethany McLean: I, I don't, I don't know.And there may be, there may be, there are probably multiple answers to that question, right? There's probably no one, one right answer for me. In, in the end. My, my math major has proven to be pivotal. Even though , my mother dug up these, um, my, my parents were moving and so my mother was going through all her stuff and she dug up these, some my math work from, from college.Literally, if it weren't for the fact that I recognized my own handwriting, I would not recognize these pages on pages of math formula and proofs. And they're like, get gibberish to me now. So , but I, but I still think that math has, so I do not wanna exaggerate my mathematical ability at this stage of [00:55:00] the game.It's basically no. But I do think that doing math proofs any kind of formal, any kind of training and logic is really, really important because the more you've been formally trained in logic, the more you realize when there are piece is missing and when something isn't quite, isn't quite adding on, it just forces you to think in, in a way that is, that in a way that connects the dots.Um, because you know, if you're moving from A to B and B doesn't follow a, you, you understand that B doesn't follow a And I think that that, that, that kind of training is, is really, really important. It's what's given. , whatever kind of backbone I have as a journalist is not because I like to create controversy and like to make people mad.I actually don't. It's just because something doesn't make sense to me. And so maybe it doesn't make sense to me because I'm not getting it, or it doesn't make sense to me because B doesn't actually follow, follow away, and you're just being told that it does. And so I think that, I think that training is, is really, really important.Um, I also have, have often thought [00:56:00] that another part of training is realizing that basic rule that you learned in kindergarten, which is, um, you know, believe your imagination or you know, your imagine follow your imagination. Because the truth is anything can happen. And I think if you look at business history over the last couple of decades, it will be the improbable becoming probable.Truth over and over and over again. I mean, the idea that Enron could implode one of the biggest, supposedly most successful companies in corporate America could be bankrupt within six months. The, from its year, from its stock price high. The idea that the biggest, most successful, um, financial institutions on wall, on Wall Street could all be crumbling into bankruptcy without the aid of the US government.The idea that a young woman with no college degree and no real experience in engineering could create, uh, uh, um, could create a machine that was going to revolutionize blood testing and land on the cover of every business magazine, and that this [00:57:00] whole thing could turn out to be pretty much a fraud. The entire idea of ftx, I mean, over and over again, these things have happened.Forget Bernie Madoff if you had told people a year ago that FTX was gonna implode six months ago, three months ago, people would've been like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And so I think just that, that, that, that knowledge that the improbable happens over and over again is also a really fundamental, fundamentally important.Dwarkesh Patel: If we're con continuing on the theme of ftx, I, I interviewed him about four or five months ago.Wow. And this is one of these interviews that I'm really, I'm, I don't know if embarrass is the right word, but I knew things then that I could have like asked, poked harder about. But it's also the kind of thing where you look back in retrospect and you're. If it had turned out well, it's, it's not obvious what the red flags are.Um, while you're in the moment, there's things you can look back at the story of Facebook and how, you know, Marcus Zuckerberg acted in the early days of Facebook and you could say, if the th

This was one of my favorite episodes ever.Bethany McLean was the first reporter to question Enron's earnings, and she has written some of the best finance books out there. We discuss:* The astounding similarities between Enron & FTX,* How visionaries are just frauds who succeed (and which category describes Elon Musk),* What caused 2008, and whether we are headed for a new crisis,* Why there's too many venture capitalists and not enough short sellers,* And why history keeps repeating itself.McLean is a contributing editor at Vanity Fair (see her articles here) and the author of The Smartest Guys in the Room, All the Devils Are Here, Saudi America, and Shaky Ground.Watch on YouTube. Listen on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcast platform.Follow McLean on Twitter. Follow me on Twitter for updates on future episodes. If you enjoyed this episode, please share. Helps out a ton.Timestamps(0:04:37) - Is Fraud Over? (0:11:22) - Shortage of Shortsellers(0:19:03) - Elon Musk - Fraud or Visionary?(0:23:00) - Intelligence, Fake Deals, & Culture(0:33:40) - Rewarding Leaders for Long Term Thinking(0:37:00) - FTX Mafia?(0:40:17) - Is Finance Too Big?(0:44:09) - 2008 Collapse, Fannie & Freddie(0:49:25) - The Big Picture(1:00:12) - Frackers Vindicated?(1:03:40) - Rating Agencies(1:07:05) - Lawyers Getting Rich Off Fraud(1:15:09) - Are Some People Fundamentally Deceptive?(1:19:25) - Advice for Big Picture ThinkersTranscriptThis transcript was autogenerated and thus may contain errors.Dwarkesh Patel: the rapid implosion of a company worth tens of billions of dollars. Insider dealing and romantic entanglements between sister companies, a politically generous c e o, who is well connected in Washington, the use of a company's own stock as its collateral, the attempt, the short-lived attempt to get bought out by a previous competitor, and the fraudulent abuse of mark to market account.[00:01:00] We are not talking about ftx, we are talking about Enron, which my guest today, Bethany McClean, uh, first broke the story of and has written an amazing and detailed book about, uh, called The Smartest Guys in the Room. And she has also written, uh, a book about the housing crisis. All the devils are here, a book about Fannie and Freddy Shaky Ground, and a book about fracking Saudi America, all of which we'll get into.She's, in my opinion, the best finance nonfiction writer out there, and I'm really, really excited to have this conversation now. So, Bethany, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Bethany McLean: Thank you so much for the, for the probably Undeserved Conference, for having me on the show. Dwarkesh Patel: My first question, what are the odds that Sbf read the smartest guys in the room and just followed it as a playbook, given the similarities there?Bethany McLean: You, you know, I, I love that idea. I have to, I have to admit, I guess I love that idea. I don't know. That would make me responsible for what, for what happened, . So maybe I don't love that idea. L let me take that back . [00:02:00] Anyway, but I, I, I actually think that, that, that even if he had read the book, it would never have occurred to him that, that there was a similarity because self-delusion is such a, Strong component of all of these stories of business gone wrong.It's very rare that you have one of the characters at the heart of this who actually understands what they're doing and understands that they're moving over into the dark side and thinks about the potential repercussions of this and chooses this path. Anyway, that's usually not the way these stories go.So it's entirely possible that Sbf studied Enron, knew all about it, and never envisioned that there were any similarities between that and what he was doing. Dwarkesh Patel: Oh, that's a fascinating, um, which I guess raises the question of what are we doing when we're documenting and trying to learn from books like yours?If somebody who is a, about to commit the same exact kind of thing can read that book and not realize that he's doing the same exact thing, is there something that just [00:03:00] prevents us from learning the lessons of history that we, we can never just, uh, get the analogy right, and we're just guided by our own delusions.Bethany McLean: Wasn't there a great quote that history rhymes, but it doesn't repeat. I'm Yeah. Relying on who it is who said that, but I think that's, that's absolutely true. Oh, I think it's important for all of us, those of us who are not gonna find ourselves at the center of, uh, giant fraud or, so, I hope, I think my time for that has passed.Maybe not you, but, um, I think it's important for all of us to understand what went wrong. And I, I do think these, I do think just there, there's a great value and greater understanding of the world without necessarily a practical payoff for it. So I think when something goes wrong on a massive societal level, it's really important to try to, to try to explain it.Human beings have needed narrative since the dawn of time, and we need narrative all, all, all the more now we need, we need to make sense of the world. So I like to believe. Process of making, trying to make sense of the world. , um, [00:04:00] has a value in, in and of itself. Maybe there is small, some small deterrence aspect to it in that I often think that if people understand more the process by which things go go wrong, that it isn't deliberate, that it's not bad people setting out to do bad things.It's human beings, um, at first convincing themselves even that they're doing the right thing and then ending up in a situation that they, they never meant to be in. And maybe on the margin that does, maybe on the margin that does, that does help because maybe it has deterred some people who, who would've started down that path, but for the fact that they now see that that's the, that's the usual path.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. That actually raises the next question I wanted to ask you. Bern Hobart, uh, he's a finance writer as well. He wrote a blog post, um, about, uh, I mean this was before FTX obviously, and he was talking about Enron and he said in the end, it actually looks like we fixed the precise problem. Enron represented.Nobody I know solely looks at gap [00:05:00] financials. Everybody ultimately models based on free cash flow, we're much more averse to companies that set up a deliberate conflict of interest between management and shareholders. And I guess there's a way in which you can read that and say, oh, it doesn't FTX prove I'm wrong.But, you know, there's another way you can look at it is that FTX deliberately set up outside the us. So there's a story to be told that actually we learned the lessons of Enron and, you know, uh, so remains obviously worked. Uh, that's why, you know, they were in The Bahamas and we haven't seen the scale fraud of that scale in, you know, the continental United States.Um, do, do you think that the FTX saga and I guess the absence of other frauds of that scale in America shows that. The regulations and this changed business and investment practices in the aftermath of Enron have actually. Bethany McLean: Well, I think they've probably worked in narrowly, written in, in the way in which the writer you quoted articulated, I think it would be very hard for the cfo, F O of a publicly traded company to set up other private [00:06:00] equity firms that he ran, that did all their business with his company.Because everybody would say That's Enron and it would be completely. On the nose. And so, and Sarbanes Oxley in the sense of, in the sense of helping to reign in corporate fraud of the sort that was practiced by Enron, which was this abuse of very specific accounting rules. Um, I think I, I, I think that worked.But you know, you say there hasn't been fraud on a scale like Enron up until perhaps f ftx, but you're forgetting the global financial crisis. Yeah. And then the end, the line between what happened at Enron. and, and what happened in the global financial crisis. It's not a matter of black and white. It's not a matter of, one thing was clear cut fraud and one thing great.We love these practices. Isn't this fantastic? This is the way we want business to operate. They're both somewhere in the murky middle. You know, a lot of what happened at Enron wasn't actually outright fraud. I've coined this phrase, legal fraud to describe, um, to describe what it is that, that, that, that happened at Enron.And a lot of what [00:07:00] happened in the global financial crisis was legal, hence the lack of prosecutions. But it's also not behavior that that leads to a healthy market or mm-hmm. , for that matter, a a a a healthy society. And so there's a reason that you had Sarbanes Oxley and what was it, eight short, short years later you had Dodd-Frank and so Riri broadly.I'm not sure Sarbanes actually did that much good. And what I mean by that is when President George Bush signed it into law in the Rose Garden, he gave this speech about how investors were now protected and everything was great and your, your ordinary investors could take comfort that the laws were meant to protect them from wrongdoing.And you compare that to the speech that President Barack Obama gave eight years later when he signed Don Frank into law in the Rose Garden. And it's remarkably similar that now ordinary investors can count on the rules and regulations keeping themself from people who are prey on their financial wellbeing.[00:08:00] And I don't think it was, it's, it's true in either case because our markets, particularly modern markets move and evolve so quickly that the thing that's coming out of left field to get you is never gonna be the thing you are protecting against. Mm. . Dwarkesh Patel: , but given the fact that Enron, as you say, was committing legal fraud, is it possible that the government, um, when they prosecuted skilling and Fastow and lay, they in fact, We're not, uh, they, they prosecuted them to a greater extent than the law as written at the time would have warranted.In other words, were, uh, was there something legally invalid in the, in this, in the quantity of sentence that they got? Is it possible? Bethany McLean: So that's a really, it, it's, it's a, I I get what you're asking. I think it's a really tricky question because I think in absolute terms, um, Enron needed to be prosecuted and needed to be prosecuted aggressively.And while I say it was legal fraud, that is for the most part, there was actually real fraud around, around, uh, but it's on the margin. It doesn't [00:09:00] entire, it doesn't explain the entirety of Enron's collapse. Much of what they did was using and abusing the accounting rules in order to create an appearance of economic reality.Nothing to do with actual, with actual reality. But then there was actual fraud in the sense that Andy Fasta was stealing money from these partnerships to benefit himself. And they were, if you believe, the core tenant of the prosecution, which was their, this agreement called Global Galactic that was signed by, that was between Andy fau and Jeff Skilling, where Jeff agreed that Andy's partnerships would never lose money.Then that invalidated all of the, all of the accounting, and that's the chief reason that that. That skilling was, was, was convicted, um, was that the jury believed the existence of this, of this, of this agreement that in, um, one set of insider stock sales, which, which we can talk about, which was also a really key moment relative to the, so in absolute terms, I don't know, it's, it's hard for me to, to say there was [00:10:00] such, Enron was such a, to a degree that is still surprising to me, such a, a watershed moment in our, in our country, far beyond business itself.it, it, it caused so much insecurity that about our retirements, our retirement assets safe. Can you trust the company where you work? That I think the government did, did have to prosecute aggressively, but relative to the financial crisis where a lot of people made off with a lot of money and never had to give any of it back, does it seem fair that, that, that Jeff Skilling went to jail for over a decade and no one involved in a major way in the financial crisis paid any price whatsoever?People didn't even really have to give up that much of the money they made then. Then it seems a little bit unfair. Yes, so I think it's, it's an absolute versus a relative Dwarkesh Patel: question. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, who do you think made more money? Um, the investment banks, uh, like, uh, Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, um, from doing, [00:11:00] providing their services to Enron as the stock was going up, or Jim Chanos from shorting the stock?In absolute terms, who made more money? Bethany McLean: Oh, I think the investment banks for sure. I mean, they made, they made so much money in investment banking fees from, from, from Enron. But, you know, it's a good question. . , it's a good question actually, because I think Jim made a lot of money too, so, Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I, you've spoken about, I guess the usefulness and the shortage of short sellers des a sort of, uh, corrective on irrational exuberance.And I'm curious why you think that shortage exists in the first place. Like, if you believe in the efficient market hypothesis, you should think that, you know, if some company has terrible financials and implausible numbers, then people would be lining up to short it. And then you would never have a phenomenon like Enron.And so it's, it's, you know, it's so odd that you can. , you know, reporters who are basically ahead of the market in terms of predicting what's gonna happen. Uh, well, uh, how do you square that with like the efficient [00:12:00] market hypothesis? Well, do you Bethany McLean: believe in the efficient market hypothesis, ? Dwarkesh Patel: I, I, I'd like to, but I'm like trying to , trying to wrap my head around Enron.Bethany McLean: I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure how you. Can, unless you, unless you adopt Warren Buffett's point of view, and I'm gonna mangle the quote because, uh, but, but it's that the market in the short term is a voting machine in the long term. It's a weighing machine, right? Mm-hmm. , or is it the other way around? . Anyway, but the idea is that the market may be very efficient for a long, very inefficient, for a long period of time.But, but it does actually, rationality does actually work in, in, in the end. And I think I might believe that, but isn't it John Maynard Cas who said the market can remain irrational for a lot longer than you can remain solvent. And so I think that's true too. I think believing that the market is efficient and rational in the short term is just obviously wrongUm, but back to your question about short sellers, which is, which is interesting, you know, I think part of it is that there is still this, um, there certainly was a couple of [00:13:00] decades ago, and I think it still exists, this idea that. Owning stocks is Mom, American, and apple pie in shorting stocks somehow is bad and evil and rooting, rooting against America.And I remember going back to the Enron days, someone, people criticizing me, even other people in the press saying, but you took a tip from a short seller. They're biased. And I. , I would say. But, but, but wait, the analysts who have buy ratings on stocks and the portfolio managers who own those stocks, they're biased too.They want the stocks to go up. Everybody's biased. So the trick as a journalist is getting information from all sides and figuring out who you think is right and what makes sense. But it's not avoiding anybody with any bias. But it was really interesting that people saw the bias on the part of short sellers and did not see it on the part of, of, of Longs.And I think there is that preconception that exists broadly, that somehow you are doing something wrong and you're somehow rooting for a company's failure. And that this is, I don't know, anti-American if you, if, if you [00:14:00] short a stock. And so I think that's part of why there's, there's, there's a shortage of shortage of, of, of short sellers.Um, I think also, I mean, we've had. Incredible, unprecedented bull market for the last four decades as a result of falling interest rates, and especially in the decade before the pandemic hit, it was very, very difficult to make money shorting anything because everything went to the moon. Didn't matter if its numbers were good, if it was eventually unmasked to be somewhat fraudulent, , it stocks just went to the moon anyway.The riskier the better. And so it is only diehard short sellers that have managed to stick it out . Yeah, and I think, I think lastly, Jim Chano said this to me once, and I, I think it's true that he could find, dozens of people who were skilled enough to come, smart enough to come work for him.There's no shortage of that. People who are technically skilled and really smart, but being able to be contrarian for a long period of time, especially when the market is going against you, is a different sort [00:15:00] of person. It that it requires a completely different mindset to have everybody in the world saying, you're wrong to be losing money because the stock is continuing to go up and to be able to hold fast to your conviction.And I think that's another, uh, part of the explanation for why there are fewer short sellers. Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah, and that raised an interesting question about. Uh, venture capital, for example, where, or private markets in general? Um, at least in the public markets, there's shorting maybe in shortage, but it, it is a possible mechanism, whereas, uh, I'm a programmer.So, you know, if, if like a one guy thinks the company's worth a hundred million dollars and everybody else thinks it's not, you know, the company will still be, uh, the price will still be said by the, you know, the person who's a believer. Um, does that increase the risk of some sort of bubble in venture capital and in technology?Um, and I guess in private markets generally, if they're, they're not public, is that something you worry about that they're, they will be incredible bubbles built up if there's a lot of money that's floating around in these Bethany McLean: circles. . Well, I think we're seeing that now, [00:16:00] right? And I don't think it's a coincidence that FTX and Theranos were not publicly traded companies, right?Mm-hmm. . Um, there's a certain sort of, uh, black box quality to these companies because people aren't charting them and aren't, aren't, and aren't, you know, whispering to journalists about that. That there's something wrong here and there aren't publicly available financials for people to dig through and look, look, and look at the numbers.So now I don't think that's a coincidence. And I do think this gigantic move into private assets has been, um, probably not great for the, for the, for the, for the. for the, for the safety of the system. And you'd say, well, it's just institutional investors who can afford to lose money who are losing money.But it's really not because institutional investors are just pension fund money. Mm-hmm. and in some cases now mutual fund money. So that distinction that the people who are investing in this stuff can afford to lose it is not really true. Um, so I don't, I don't like that rationalization. I think we're gonna see how that plays out.There was [00:17:00] just a really good piece in the Economist about private equity marks on their portfolio companies and how they are still looked to be much higher than what you would think they should be given the carnage in the market. And so all of what, what actually things are really worth in private markets, both for venture capital firms and for private equity firms, Is absent another, another bubble starting, starting in the markets.I think we're gonna see how that plays out over, over the next year. And it might be a wake up call for, for a lot of people. Um, you know, all that, all that said, it's an interesting thing because investors have been very complicit in this, right? In the sense that a lot of investors are absolutely delighted to have prep, to have their, their private, um, their private investments marked at a high level.They don't have to go to the committee overseeing the investments and say, look, I lost 20% of your money the way they might, um, if, if the numbers were public. And so that the ability of these of private investors to smooth as they call it, the, the, the returns is, is it's [00:18:00] been, it's been part of the appeal.It hasn't been a negative, it's been a positive. And so I would say that investors who wanted this moving are. Art might be getting what they deserve except for the pointing made earlier that it isn't, it isn't their money. It's, it's the money of, of teachers and firefighters and individual investors a around the country, and that's, that's problematic.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Being in the world of technology and being around people in it has. made me, somewhat shocked when I read about these numbers from the past. For example, when I'm reading your books and they're detailing things that happened in the nineties or the two thousands, and then you realize that the salary that Hank Paulson made a c e o of Goldman, or that skilling made as, you know, um, c e o of Enron, you know, I, it's like I have friends who are my age, like 22 year olds who are raising seed rounds, , that are as big as like these people's salaries.And so it just feels like the, these books were, you have $50 billion frauds or, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars of collapse and the individuals there, um, it just feels like they, it's missing a few zeros, uh, [00:19:00] because of the delusion of the private markets. But, um, but speaking of short sellers and speaking of private equity, um, I think it'd be interesting to talk about sbf.So, you know, your 2018 Vanity Fair article I thought was really interesting about, you know, sbf factory in Buffalo H How, how do you think back on Tesla and sbf now, given the fact that. The stock did continue to rise afterwards, and the factory, I believe, was completed and it's, I hired the 1500 or so people that had promised New York State, uh, is sbf just a fraud?Who can pull it off? And so he's a visionary. How, how do you think about sbf in the aftermath? Bethany McLean: So I don't think that's right about Buffalo and I have to look, but I don't think they ended up, I mean, the Solar City business that Tesla has pretty much collapsed. I don't think people haven't gotten their roofs.There was just a piece about how they're canceling some of their roof installations. So sbf has repeatedly made grand visions about that business that haven't played out. And I will check this for you post the podcast, but I don't think [00:20:00] if there is employment at that factory in, in Buffalo, it's not because they're churn out solar, solar, solar products that are, that are, that are doing.What was originally promised. So I guess I, I think about that story in a, in a couple of ways. It definitely, um, it was not meant to be a piece about Tesla. It was meant to be a piece that shown a little bit of light on how sbf operates and his willingness to flout the rules and his reliance on government subsidies, despite the fact that he, um, presents himself as this libertarian free, free, free market free marketeer, and his willingness to lie to, to, to, on some level enrich himself, which also runs counter to the Elon sbf narrative that he doesn't care about making money for, for himself.Because the main reason for Teslas to by Solar City was that Solar City had the main reason, was it Tes, that was, that Solar City had, that, that sbf and his, and his and his relatives had extended the these loans to Solar City that were gonna go. [00:21:00] There were gonna be lo all the money was gonna be lost at Solar City when bankrupt.And by having Tesla buy it, sbf was able to bail himself out, um, as, as as well. And I also think a good reason for the, for the, for, and it brings us to the present time, but a reason for the acquisition was that sbf knows that this image of himself as the invincible and vulnerable who can always raise money and whose companies always work out in the end, was really important.And if Solar City had gone bankrupt, it would've cast a big question mark over over sbf, over over the sbf narrative. And so I think he literally couldn't afford to let Solar City go bankrupt. Um, all of that said, I have, I have been, and was I, I was quite skeptical of Tesla and I thought about it in, in, in, in.And I always believed that the product was great. I just, mm-hmm. wasn't sure about the company's money making potential. And I think that, that, it's something I started thinking about, um, background, the Solar City time, maybe earlier, but this line, something I've talked about [00:22:00] before. But this line between a visionary and a fraudster.You know, you think that they're on two opposite ends of the spectrum, but in reality they're where the ends of the circle meet. Characteristics of one. One has that many of the characteristics of the other. And sometimes I think the only thing that really separates the two is that the fraudster is able to keep getting mo raising money in order to get through the really difficult time where he or she isn't telling the truth.And then they, that person goes down in history as a visionary. Um, but because no one ever looks back to the moment in time when they were lying, the fraudster gets caught in the middle. Um, so Enron's Lo lost access to to the capital markets lost AC access to funding as the market collapsed after the.com boom.And people began to wonder whether skilling was telling the truth about Enron's broadband business. And then there were all the disclosures about Andy fasa partnerships if Enron had been able to continue raising money, Business of Enron's called Enron Broadband might well have been Netflix. It was Netflix ahead of its time.So Enron just got caught in the middle and all [00:23:00] the fraud, all the fraud got exposed . Um, but that's not because Jeff Skilling wasn't a visionary who had really grand plans for, for, for, for the future. So I think sbf falls somewhere in that spectrum of, of, of fraudster and visionary. And what's gonna be really interesting why I said that this, we bring it to the present time about what happens to the mu narrative.If something fails is what happens. Yeah. Is as the world watch watches Twitter implode, um, what does that mean then for the Elon sbf narrative overall? Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Um, going back to the Smartest Guys is the Room, the title obviously suggests something about. The, I guess in general, the ability and the likelihood of very smart people committing fraud or things of that sort.Um, but you know, Begar Jones has this book called Hi Mind, where he talks about how the smarter people are more likely to cooperate in prisoners dilemma type situations. They have longer time preference. And one of the things you've written about is the problem in corporate America is people having shorter, [00:24:00] um, uh, you know, doing two too big time discounting.So, uh, given that trend we see in general of greater Cooperativeness, um, and other kinds of traits of more intelligent people, do you think the reason we often find people like S B F and skilling running big frauds just by being very intelligent, is it just that on, on average smarter people, maybe less likely to commit fraud, but when they do commit fraud, they do it at such garat scales and they're able to do it at such gar scales that it just brings down entire empires?How, how, how do you think about the relationship between intelligence and fraud? . Bethany McLean: That's interesting. Um, I'm not sure I know a coherent answer to that. Um, smartest guys in the room as a title was a little bit tongue in cheek. It wasn't meant to say, these guys actually are the smartest guys in the room. It was, it, it was a little bit, it was a little bit ironic, but that doesn't take away from the really good question that you asked, which is what, what, what is that relationship?I, I mean, I think if you look at the history of corporate fraud, you are not going to find unintelligent people having [00:25:00] been the masterminds behind this. You're gonna find really, really, really smart, even brilliant people having, having, having been, been behind it, maybe some at part of that is this linkage between the visionary and the fraud star that so many of these, of these corporate frauds are people who have qualities of the visionary and to.The qualities of, of a visionary, you have to have a pretty, pretty, pretty, pretty high intelligence. Um, and I do think so many of these stories are, are about then self delusion. So I don't think smart people are any less likely to suffer from self delusion than dumb people. And they're probably more likely to, because you can rationalize, you know, the smart person's ability to rationalize just about anything they wanna rational rationalize is pretty profound.Whereas perhaps someone who doesn't have quite the same, the same brain power isn't gonna be able to create a narrative under which their actions are blameless and they're doing the right thing. So I think sometimes, so maybe there is some sort of relationship [00:26:00] there that somebody more qualified than I am would have to study between smart people's ability to, to, to rationalize just about anything as a way of, as part of the path to self delusion and part of the path by which these things happen.Yeah, that's completely, that's completely , that's Bethany theory. There's absolutely nothing to back that . I'm just Dwarkesh Patel: well clear. Let's do some more speculation. So, um, one of the things, uh, John Ray talked about in his testimony, um, was it two days ago where he said that, you know, FTX had done $5 billion of investments and deals in the last year, and most of those investments were worth a fraction of the value that FTX paid for them.And we see this also in, obviously in Enron, right? With, uh, broadband and with, um, ul, or is that how pronounce it, but basically their international department. Yeah. Um, what is this, uh, this obsession with deal making for its own sake? Is that to appease investors and make them think a lot's going on, is that because of [00:27:00] the hubris of the founder, of just wanting to set up a big empire as fast as possible, even if you're getting a bad sticker price?What, why do we see this pattern of just, you know, excessive deal making for its own sake? Bethany McLean: That's an interesting question too. I'm not sure that that's, um, limited to companies that go splat dramatically. There's a lot of, a lot of deal making in, in corporate America has that same frenzied quality. Um, I haven't seen an updated study on, on this in a, in a long time, but, you know, I began my career working as an analyst in an m and a department at at at Goldman Sachs.And. Definitely deals are done for the sake of doing deals. And I once joked that synergies are kind of like UFOs. A lot of people claim to have seen them, but there's no proof that they actually exist. , and again, I haven't seen an updated study on, on, on this, but there was one years back that showed that most m and a transactions don't result in increased value for shareholders.And most synergies, most promised synergies never materialize. [00:28:00] Just getting bigger for the sake of getting bigger and doing deals for the short term value of showing Wall Street a projection. That earnings are gonna be so much higher even after the cost of the debt that you've taken on. And that they're these great synergies that are gonna come about from, from combining businesses.So I don't know that either the frenzy deal doing or deal doing deals gone wrong is, um, solely limited to people who are committing fraud. , I think it's kinda across the spectrum. , . Dwarkesh Patel: Um, um, well one, one thing I find interesting about your books is how you detail that. And correct me if this is the wrong way to read them, but that, uh, incentives are not the only thing that matter.You know, there there's this perception that, you know, we've set up bad incentives for these actors and that's why they did bad things. But also, um, the power of one individual to shape a co co company's culture and the power of that culture to enable bad behavior, whether scaling at Enron or with Clarkson Right at Moody's.Yeah. Um, is that a good, good way of reading your books or how, how do you think [00:29:00] about the relative importance of culture and incentive? Bethany McLean: I think that's really fair. But incentives are part of culture, right? If, if you've set up a culture where, where how you're valued is what you get paid, I think it's a little, it's a little difficult to separate those two things out because, because the, the incentives do help make the culture, but for sure culture is incredibly, um, incredibly compelling.I've often thought and said that if I had, when I was leaving my short lived career in investment banking, if I had, if I had gotten in some of the head hunters I was talking to, if one of them had said, there's this great, really energetic, interesting energy company down in Houston, , why don't interview there?If I had gone there, would I have been a whistleblower or would I have been a believer? And I'd like to believe I would've been a whistleblower, but I think it's equally likely that I would've been a believer. Culture is so strong. It creates this. What's maybe a miasma that you can't see outside?I remember a guy I talked to who's a trader at Enron, really smart guy, and he [00:30:00] was like, after the, after the bankruptcy, he said, of course, if we're all getting paid based on creating reported earnings and there's all this cash going out the door in order to do these deals that are creating reported earnings, and that's the culture of the entire firm, of course it's not gonna work economically.He said, I never thought about it. . It just didn't, it didn't, it didn't occur to me. And I think the more compelling the CEO o the more likely you are to have that kind of mass delusion. I mean, there's a reason cult exist, right? . We, we are as human beings, remarkably susceptible to.Visionary leaders. It's just, it's the way the human brain is wired. We, we wanna believe, and especially if somebody has the ability to put a vision forward, like Jeff Gilling did at Enron, like Elizabeth Holmes did it Theranos like SPF F did, where you feel like you are in the service of something greater by helping this, vision, , actualize then, then you're, particularly susceptible.And I think that is the place where [00:31:00] incentives don't quite explain things. That is, there is this very human desire to matter, to do something important. Mm-hmm to be doing something that's gonna change the world. And when somebody can tap into that desire in people that feeling that what you're doing isn't just work in a paycheck and the incentives you have, but I mean, I guess it is part of the incentive, but that you're part of some greater good.That's incredibly powerful. Yeah. Dwarkesh Patel: It's what we all speaking of. We all wanna matter. . Yeah. Speaking of peoples psychology, uh, crime and punishment, underrated or overrated as a way to analyze the psychology of people like scaling and S B F or maybe SBF specifically because of the utilitarian nature of SB F'S crime?Um, Bethany McLean: I think it's, I think it's underrated, overrated. I'm not sure anybody. , I'm not sure anybody has ever proven that jail sentences for white collar criminals do anything to deter subsequent white collar crime. Mm-hmm. , and I think one part of this is the self delusion that I've, that I talked about. Nobody thinks, [00:32:00] oh, I'm doing the same thing as Jeff Skilling did at Enron, and if I, and if I do this, then I too might end up in jail.Therefore, I don't wanna do this. I just don't think that's the way the, the, the, the, the thought process works. I think Elizabeth Holmes at Theranos, probably for the most part, convinced herself that this was going to work, and that if you just push forward and push hard enough and keep telling people what they wanna hear and keep being able to raise money, it's gonna work.You know, if. . If, if you pause to think, well, what if it doesn't work and I've lied and I go to jail, then, then you'd stop right, right then and there. So I think that, I think that, that I'm, I'm not, I'm not sure it's much of a deterrent. I remember, and partly I'm, I'm biased because I remember a piece, my co-author Peter Alkin, and I wrote out right after Jess Gilling and Kenley were, were convicted and can lay, we're we're convicted.And we wrote a piece for Fortune in which we said that the entire world has changed. Now that corporate executives are, um, are, are put on high alert that behavior in the gray area will no longer be tolerated and that it will be aggressively prosecuted. And this was spring of [00:33:00] 2006 and the events that caused the global financial crisis were pretty well underway.It didn't. Do much to prevent the global financial crisis. Mm-hmm. , Enron's, Enron's jail time, didn't do anything to present, prevent, Elizabeth Holmes doesn't seem to have done anything to change what Sbf was doing. So I just, I, I just, I'm, I'm, I'm not sure, I'm sure a psychologist or somebody who specializes in studying white color crime could probably make a argument that refutes everything I said and that shows that has had a deterring effect.But I just, I just don't think that people who get themselves into this situation, con, con, consciously think, this is what I'm doing. Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. Um, speaking of other incentives, stock options, uh, you've spoken about how that creates short-term incentives for the executives who are making decisions. If you wanted to set up an instrument that aligned an executive or a leader's compensation with the long-term performance of a company, what would that look like?W would you have the options of less than 10 years instead of a [00:34:00] year? H how would you design it? How do you usually design a compensation scheme to award long-term thinking? Bethany McLean: If I could do that, I should ru rule the world . I think that very sweet. I think that is one of the really tough, um, problems confronting boards or anybody who is determining anybody who's determining stock options and that almost anybody who's determining compensation and that most compensation schemes seem to have really terrible unintended consequences.They look really good on paper. And then as they're implemented, it turns out that there was a way in which they accomplished exactly the opposite of, uh, thing the people who designing them wanted, wanted them to accomplish. I mean, if you think back to the advent of stock options, what could sound better?Right. Giving management a share of the company such that if, if, if shareholders did well, that they'd do well, nobody envisioned the ways in which stock options could be repriced. The ways in which meeting earnings targets could lead to gaming the ways in which the incentive of stock-based [00:35:00] compensation could lead to people trying to get anything they could in order to get the stock price higher and cash out when they're, as soon as their stock options vested.So, and even there was, there was, the whole valiant saga was fascinating on this front because the people who designed Mike Pearson's compensation package as ceo e o Valiant, they were convinced that this was absolutely the way to do it. And he got bigger and bigger, um, stock option incentives for hitting certain, for having the stock achieve certain levels.But of course, that creates this incredible bias to just get the stock to go up no matter, no matter what else you do. Um, it does seem to me that vesting over the long term is. is, is a much better way to go about things. But then do you create incentives for people to play games in order to get the stock lower at, at various points where there's about to be a stock optional board so they have a better chance of having directions be, be worth, be worth something over the long term.And do you, particularly on Wall Street there is this, or in firms where this sort of stuff matters the most? There [00:36:00] is this, there was this clearing out of dead wood that happened where people got paid and they got outta the way and made way for younger people. And I don't know, it was a harsh culture, but maybe it made sense on some level.And now at least I've been told with much longer vesting periods, you have people who don't wanna let go. And so you have more of a problem with people who should have retired, stick sticking around instead of in, in, instead of clearing out. And then it also becomes a question, How much money is, is enough.So if somebody is getting millions of dollars in short-term compensation and then they have a whole bunch more money tied up in long-term compensation, do the long-term numbers matter? At what point do they, do they, do they really matter? I mean, if you gave me $5 million today, I'm not so sure I'd really care if I were getting another $5 million in 10 years.Right. ? Yeah. So, so I think all of that is, is it, it's, I'm not, I'm not sure there's a perfect compensation system. All things considered though, I think longer term is, is probably better, [00:37:00] but. Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah, I didn't think about that downside of the long investing period. That's so interesting there. I guess there is no free lunch.Uh, so with Enron, um, it, it was clear that there was a lot of talent at the firm and that you had these companies and these trading firms launch at the aftermath by people who left Enron, kinder Morgan and John Arnold's, um, uh, Sintas, uh, that were wildly profitable and did well. Do you think we'll see the same thing with FTX, that while Sbf himself and maybe the, his close cadre were frauds, there actually was a lot of great trading and engineering talent there that are gonna start these very successful firms in the aftermath.Bethany McLean: That's, that's interesting. And just, just for the sake of clarification, kinder Morgan was actually started years before Enron's collapsed, when Rich Kinder, who was vying with Jeffs skilling in a sense, to become Chief Operating Officer. Um, Ken Lay, picked Jeffs skilling and Kinder left. Mm-hmm. and took a few assets and went to create Kinder, kinder Morgan.But your overall point, I'm just clarifying your overall point holds, there were a lot of people who [00:38:00] left Enron and went on to do, to have pretty, pretty remarkable careers. I think the answer with ftx, I bet there will be some for sure. But whether they will be in the crypto space, I guess depends on your views on the long-term viability of, of, of the crypto space.And I have never , it's funny is crypto exploded over the last couple of years. I was, I've been working on this book about the pandemic and it's been busy and difficult enough that I have not lifted my head to, to think about much else. And I always thought, I don't get it. I don't understand , I mean, I understand the whole argument about the blockchain being valuable for lots of transactions and I, I get that, but I never understood crypto itself and I thought, well, I just need to, as soon as this book is done, I just need to put a month into understanding this because it's obviously an important, important enough part of our world that I need to figure it out.So now I think, oh, Okay, maybe I didn't understand it for a reason and maybe, um, maybe there isn't anything to understand and I've just saved myself a whole life of crime because it's all gone. And you have [00:39:00] people like Larry Fink at BlackRock saying, whole industry is gonna implode. It's done. And certainly with the news today, this morning of finances auditor basically saying We're out.Um, I, I don't, I don't know how much of it was, how much of it was, is, was a Ponzi scheme. You might know better than I do. And so I don't know what's left after this whole thing implodes. It's a little bit like, there is an analogy here that when Enron imploded, yes, a lot of people went on to start other successful businesses, but the whole energy trading business is practiced by kind of under capitalized, um, um, energy firms went away and that never came back.Yeah. And so I, I, I don't, I don't know, I'm, it'll be, I, I don't know. What do you. The Dwarkesh Patel: time to be worried will be when Bethany McLean writes an article titled Is Bitcoin Overvalued for the Audience. My Moments on That ? Yeah, for the audience that, that was, I believe the first skeptical article about Enron's, um, stock price.Yeah. Uh, and it was titled [00:40:00] Is Enron Overvalued. In aftermath understated, , title. But , Bethany McLean: , I joked that that story should have won, won, won awards for the NICU title and business journalism history. , given that the company was bankrupt six months later was overpricedDwarkesh Patel: Um, uh, well, let me ask a bigger question about finance in general. So finance is 9% of gdp, I believe. How much of that is the productive use and thinking and allocation of the, uh, the capital towards their most productive ends? And how much of that is just zero sum or negative sum games? Um, if, if you had to break that down, like, is 9% too high, do you think, or is it just.I think it's Bethany McLean: too high. I have no idea how to think about breaking it down to what the proper level should be. But I think there are other ways to think about how you can see that in past decades it hasn't been at the right level when you've had all sorts of smart kids. Um, Leaving, leaving business school and leaving college and heading into [00:41:00] finance and hedge funds and private equity is their career of choice.I think that's a sign that that finance is too big when it's sucking up too much of, of, of the talent of the country. Um, and when the rewards for doing it are so disproportionate relative to the rewards of of, of doing other things. Um, the counter to that is that there've also been a lot of rewards for starting businesses.And that's probably, I think, how you want it to be in a, in a product. In a productive economy. So I think the number is, is too high. I don't know how to think about what it should be other than what a, actually, a former Goldman Sachs partner said this to me when I was working on all the devils are here, and she said that finance is supposed to be like the, the substrata of our world.It's supposed to be the thing that enables other things to happen. It's not supposed to be the world itself. So the, the role of a financial system is to enable businesses to get started, to provide capital. That's what it's supposed to be. It's the lubricant that enables business, but it's not supposed to be the thing itself.Right. And it's become the thing itself. [00:42:00] You've, you've, you've, you've, you've got a problem. Um, um, and I think the other, Dwarkesh Patel: there's your article about crypto , that paragraph right there. . Bethany McLean: There you go. That's, that's a good, um, and I think, I think the other way, you, you, you can see, and perhaps this is way too simplistic, but the other way I've thought about it is that how can it be if you can run a hedge fund and make billions of dollars from, and have five people, 10 people, whatever it is, versus starting a company that employs people mm-hmm.and changes a neighborhood and provides jobs and, you know, provides a product that, that, that, that, that improves people's lives. It, it is a shame that too much of the talent and such a huge share of the financial rewards are going to the former rather than the latter. And that just can't mean good things for the future.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, when people criticize technology, for example, for the idea that, you know, these people who would've been, I don't know, otherwise teachers or something, they're, you know, making half a million dollars at Google. [00:43:00] Um, and I think like when I was in India, people were using Google Maps to get through the streets in Mumbai, which is, which is unimaginable to me before going there that, you know, you would be able to do that with, um, a service built out of Silicon Valley.And so, Yeah, I think that actually is a good allocation of capital and talent. I, I'm not, I'm not sure about finance. Um, yeah, Bethany McLean: I think I, I, I agree with you. I think there are other problems with Google and with the, the social media giants, but, but they are real businesses that employ people, that make products that have had, uh, huge.Um, impact on on, on people's, on people's lives. So in, in that sense, it's very different than a private equity firm, for instance, and especially private equity, even more so than hedge funds draws my ire. Mm-hmm. , because I think one of the reasons they, that it, they've been able to make part of the financialization of our economy has been due to super, super low interest rates and low interest rates that have enabled so many people to make so much money in finance are not, they're just a gift.It wasn't because these people were uniquely smart, they just [00:44:00] found themselves in a great moment in time. And the fact that they now think they're really smart because money makes me crazy. Dwarkesh Patel: Um, are Fanny and Freddy America special purpose entities? Are they our Alameda? It's just the way we hide our debt and uh, that's interesting.Yeah. Bethany McLean: Well, I guess we, you know what? I don't know anymore because, so I last wrote about them when was it in 2016 and I don't know now. No, you're right. Their, their debt is still off, off, off balance sheet. So Yeah, in a lot of ways they, they were. . I would argue though that the old Fanny and Freddy were structured more honestly than, than the new Fanny and Freddy, that it really is conservatorship that have made them, um, that have made them America's off balance sheet entities, because at least when they were their own independent entities.Yes, there was this odd thing known as the implicit guarantee, which is when you think about, back to your point about efficient markets, how can you possibly believe there's an as such a thing as an efficient market when their [00:45:00] Fanny and Freddy had an implicit guarantee, meaning it wasn't real. There was no place where it was written down that the US government would bail Fanny and Freddie out in a crisis, and everybody denied that it existed and yet it did exist.Yeah. Dwarkesh Patel: No, but we, I feel like that confirms the official market hypothesis, right? The, the market correctly, they thought that mortgages backed by Fannie and Freddy would have governments. Uh, okay, okay. You might be father Bethany McLean: and they did . You might be right. I, I, I think what I was getting at you, you might be right.I think what I was getting at is that it is such a screwed up concept. I mean, how can you possibly, when I first, when people were first explaining this to me, when I first read about Fanny and Freddie, I was like, no, no, wait. This is American capitalism . This is, no, wait. What? I don't, I don't understand . Um, um, so yeah, but I, I, I, I think that Fanny and Freddie, at least with shareholders that were forced to bear some level of, of the risks were actually a more honest way of going about this whole screwed up American way of financing mortgages than, than the current setup is.Dwarkesh Patel: What [00:46:00] is the future of these firms? Or are they just gonna say in conservatorship forever? Or is there any developments there? Well, what's gonna happen to them? Bethany McLean: The lawsuit, the latest lawsuit that could have answered that in some ways ended in a mistrial. Um, I don't think, I don't, I don't think unfortunately anybody in government sees any currency in, and I mean, currency in the broad sense, not in the literal sense of money in, in taking this on.And unfortunately, what someone once said to me about it, I think remains true and it's really depressing, but is that various lawmakers get interested in Fannie and Freddy. They engage with it only to figure out it's really, really goddamn complicated. Mm-hmm. and that, and that any kind of solution is gonna involve angering people on one side of the aisle or another and potentially angering their constituent constituents.And they slowly back away, um, from doing anything that could, that, that could affect change. So I think we have a really unhealthy situation. I don't think it's great for these two [00:47:00] entities to be in conservatorship, but at this point, I'm not sure it's gonna change. Dwarkesh Patel: Yep. Speaking of debt and mortgages, um, so total household debt in the United States has been, uh, climbing recently after it's, it's like slightly d decline after 2008, but I think in quarter three alone it increased 350 billion and now it's at 16.5 trillion.Uh, the total US household debt, should we worried about this? Are, are, are we gonna see another sort of collapse because of this? Or what, what should we think about this? Bethany McLean: I don't know. I don't know how to think about that because it's too tied up in other things that no one knows. Are we going to have a recession?How severe is the recession going to be? What is the max unemployment rate that we're gonna hit if we do, if we do have a recession? And all of those things dictate how to, how to think about that number. I. Think consumer debt is embedded in the bowels of the financial system in the same way mortgages were.And in the end, the, the, the [00:48:00] problem with the financial crisis of 2008, it wasn't the losses on the mortgages themselves. It was the way in which they were embedded in the plumbing of the financial system. Mm-hmm. and ways that nobody understood. And then the resulting loss of confidence from the fact that nobody had understood that slash lies had been told about, about that.And that's what caused, that's what caused everything to, to collapse. Consumer debt is a little more visible and seeable and I, I don't think that it has that same, um, that same opaque quality to it that, that mortgage backed securities did. I could be, I could be wrong. I haven't, I haven't, I haven't dug into it enough, enough to understand enough to understand that.But you can see the delinquencies starting to climb. Um, I mean, I guess you could on, on, on mortgages as well, but there was this, there was this profound belief with mortgages that since home prices would never decline, there would never be losses on these instruments because you could always sell the underlying property for more than you had [00:49:00] paid for it, and therefore everything would be fine.And that's what led to a lot of the bad practices in the industry is that lenders didn't think they had to care if they were screwing the home buyer because they always thought they could take the home back and, and, and, and, and make more money on it. And consumer debt is, is unsecured. And so it's, it's, it's different.I think people think about it differently, but I'd have. I'd have to, I'd have to do some more homework to understand where consumer debt sits in the overall architecture of the financial industry. Dwarkesh Patel: I, I, I'm really glad you brought up this theme about what does the overall big picture look like? I feel like this is the theme of all your books that people will be, So obsessed with their subsection of their job or, or that ar area that they won't notice that, um, broader trends like the ones you're talking about.And in Enron it's like, why, why, why do we have all these special purpose entities? What is the total debt load of Enron? Um, or with the, you know, mortgage back securities a similar kind of thing, right? What, what, uh, maybe they weren't correlated in the past, [00:50:00] but what's that? Do we really think that there's really no correlation, um, uh, between, uh, delinquencies across the country?Um, so that, that kind of big picture, think. Whose job is that today? Is it journalists? Is it short sellers? Is it people writing on ck? Who's doing that? Is it anybody's job? Is, is it just like, uh, an important role with nobody assigned to it? Bethany McLean: I think it's the latter. I think it's an important role with nobody, with nobody assigned to it, and there there is a limit.I mean, , I hate to say this, it is not, uh, um, it is not an accident that many of my books have been written. That's probably not fair. It's not true of my book un fracking, but that some of my books have been written after the calamity happened. So they weren't so much foretelling the calamity as they were unpacking the calamity after it happened, which is a different role.And as I said at the start of our conversation, I think an important one to explain to people why this big, bad thing took, took place. But it's not prediction, I don't know, as people that were very good at, at prediction, um, they tried [00:51:00] to set up, what was it called? In the wake of the global financial crisis, they established this thing called fsoc, and now I'm forgetting what the acronym stands for.Financial Security Oversight Committee. And it's supposed to be this, this body that does think about these big picture. That thinks about the ways, the ways an exam, for example, in which mortgage backed securities were, um, were, were, were, were, were, were, were repopulating through the entire financial system and ways that would be cause a loss to be much more than a loss.That it wouldn't just be the loss of money and that security, it would echo and magnify. And so that there are people who are supposed to be thinking about it. But I think, I think it's, it's, it's really hard to see that and. In increasingly complex world, it's even, it's even harder than it was before, because the reverberations from things are really hard to map out in, in, in advance, and especially when some part of those reverberations are a loss of confidence, then all bets [00:52:00] are off because when confidence cracks, lots of things fall apart.But how do you possibly analyze in any quantitative way the the risk that that confidence will collapse? Mm-hmm. . So I think it's, I think, I think, I think it's difficult. That said, and of course I am talking my own book here, I don't think that the lack of the, the increased financial problems of journalism really help matters in that respect, because in an ideal world, you want a lot of people out there writing and thinking about various pieces of this, and then maybe somebody can come along and see the.Pieces and say, oh my God, there's this big picture thing here that we all need to be thinking about. But there's, there's a kind of serendipity in the ability to do that one, that one that the chances, I guess the best way to say that is the chances of that serendipity are dramatically increased by having a lot of people out there doing homework, um, on the various pieces of the puzzle.And so I think in a world, particularly where local news has been decimated mm-hmm. , um, the [00:53:00] chances of that sort of serendipity are, are definitely lower. And people may think, oh, it doesn't matter. We still got national news. We've got the Washington Post, we've got the Wall Street Journal, we've got the New York Times.Um, I would love to have somebody do a piece of analysis and go back through the New York Times stories and see how many were sparked by lp, a piece in the local paper that maybe you wouldn't even notice from reading the New York Times piece, because it'd be in like the sixth paragraph that, oh yeah, credit should go to this person at this local paper who started writing about this.But if you no longer have the person at the local paper who started writing about this, You know, it's, it's, it's, it's less likely that the big national piece gets written. And I think that's a part of the implosion of local news, that people, a part of the cost of the implosion of local news that people don't really understand the idea that the national press functions at, at the same level, um, without local news is just not true.Dwarkesh Patel: Yeah. And, but even if you have the local news, and I, that's a really important point, but even if you have that local news, there still has to be somebody whose job it is to synthesize it all together. And [00:54:00] I'm curious, what is the training that requires? So you, I mean, your training is, you know, math and English major and then working at working in investment banking.Um, is that the, uh, I mean, obviously the anecdotal experience then equals one, seems that that's great training for synthesizing all these pieces together. But what is the right sort of education for somebody who is thinking about the big picture? Bethany McLean: I, I don't, I don't know.And there may be, there may be, there are probably multiple answers to that question, right? There's probably no one, one right answer for me. In, in the end. My, my math major has proven to be pivotal. Even though , my mother dug up these, um, my, my parents were moving and so my mother was going through all her stuff and she dug up these, some my math work from, from college.Literally, if it weren't for the fact that I recognized my own handwriting, I would not recognize these pages on pages of math formula and proofs. And they're like, get gibberish to me now. So , but I, but I still think that math has, so I do not wanna exaggerate my mathematical ability at this stage of [00:55:00] the game.It's basically no. But I do think that doing math proofs any kind of formal, any kind of training and logic is really, really important because the more you've been formally trained in logic, the more you realize when there are piece is missing and when something isn't quite, isn't quite adding on, it just forces you to think in, in a way that is, that in a way that connects the dots.Um, because you know, if you're moving from A to B and B doesn't follow a, you, you understand that B doesn't follow a And I think that that, that, that kind of training is, is really, really important. It's what's given. , whatever kind of backbone I have as a journalist is not because I like to create controversy and like to make people mad.I actually don't. It's just because something doesn't make sense to me. And so maybe it doesn't make sense to me because I'm not getting it, or it doesn't make sense to me because B doesn't actually follow, follow away, and you're just being told that it does. And so I think that, I think that training is, is really, really important.Um, I also have, have often thought [00:56:00] that another part of training is realizing that basic rule that you learned in kindergarten, which is, um, you know, believe your imagination or you know, your imagine follow your imagination. Because the truth is anything can happen. And I think if you look at business history over the last couple of decades, it will be the improbable becoming probable.Truth over and over and over again. I mean, the idea that Enron could implode one of the biggest, supposedly most successful companies in corporate America could be bankrupt within six months. The, from its year, from its stock price high. The idea that the biggest, most successful, um, financial institutions on wall, on Wall Street could all be crumbling into bankruptcy without the aid of the US government.The idea that a young woman with no college degree and no real experience in engineering could create, uh, uh, um, could create a machine that was going to revolutionize blood testing and land on the cover of every business magazine, and that this [00:57:00] whole thing could turn out to be pretty much a fraud. The entire idea of ftx, I mean, over and over again, these things have happened.Forget Bernie Madoff if you had told people a year ago that FTX was gonna implode six months ago, three months ago, people would've been like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And so I think just that, that, that, that knowledge that the improbable happens over and over again is also a really fundamental, fundamentally important.Dwarkesh Patel: If we're con continuing on the theme of ftx, I, I interviewed him about four or five months ago.Wow. And this is one of these interviews that I'm really, I'm, I don't know if embarrass is the right word, but I knew things then that I could have like asked, poked harder about. But it's also the kind of thing where you look back in retrospect and you're. If it had turned out well, it's, it's not obvious what the red flags are.Um, while you're in the moment, there's things you can look back at the story of Facebook and how, you know, Marcus Zuckerberg acted in the early days of Facebook and you could say, if the thing fell apart, that this is why, or, you know, this is a red flag. So [00:58:00] I have a hard time thinking about how I should have done that interview.B

31 years old Hip Hop artist and Pittsburgh, PA native RapStarr a.k.a. Hurricane Cam is blessing the world with his positive lyrics. He plans to bring back the essence of lyricism, storytelling, and knowledge of historical events within the messages in his music. Like a college professor, he opens the enlightenment and self esteem within the Black and Brown community. Having a mother who worked on the news side of Pittsburgh's radio WAMO for 10-14 years, RapStarr grew up learning the ins and outs of the music business and radio. His love for Hip Hop as an artist began when he was 9 years old. He recalls a time when he bought his first CD, the “8 Mile” Soundtrack by Eminem. (which was very instrumental to his career) RapStarr refers to several of legendary artists such as Eminem, 50 Cent/G-Unit, LL Cool J, 2pac, Lil' Kim, Nas, DMX and Krs-One as some of his influences growing up. He compares his style of lyrical content to the era of 1990's and early 2000's Hip Hop. You can find his songs on ITunes, iHeart, and YouTube ect. Follow him on Twitter @RapStarr412 or like his Facebook music page RapStarr a.k.a. Hurricane C.A.M. Follow his Instragram @ItsRap2TheStarr, his TikTok @ItsRap2TheStarr, and his YouTube channel RapStarr a.k.a. Hurricane Cam412. In the words of a fan, “RapStarr is real Hip Hop”, and once you listen to his music you will strongly agree. Click HERE to read the bio in its entirety.

I was introduced to this week's guest by a previous guest (and all-around awesome human!), Aria Leighty so I knew it was going to be amazing!

Donny and Poni played the ‘what-if' game for the Steelers from the last few years. What if they extended Javon Hargrave over Stephon Tuitt? What if they drafted Jalen Hurts instead of Chase Claypool? What if they drafted Creed Humphrey instead of Pat Freiermuth? Poni asked fans what they would rather have – a top 5 pick or a rally to win the division? Calls.  Jamal Woodson from WAMO joined the show. He talked about his journey from starting at WAMO, hitting rock bottom, and the rebirth of WAMO which led him to new heights in his career and his life. Jamal shared the importance of paying it forward and The Giveback Kid. He talked about his plans of doing things a few times a month to pay it forward.

Jamal Woodson from WAMO joined the show. He talked about his journey from starting at WAMO, hitting rock bottom, and the rebirth of WAMO which led him to new heights in his career and his life. Jamal shared the importance of paying it forward and The Giveback Kid. He talked about his plans of doing things a few times a month to pay it forward.

BET,  CNN, PBS, AURN It's 2 Weeks from Mid TermsMy Guest is the "Queen of Late Night Talk Radio". She has a lot to say about Unity, Equality, Community & Economics. Her Background in being a Foot Soldier in the Civil Rights Movement gives us a History lesson in Where we were in The March for Civil Rights Then & the Need to Be United in Wanting a More Prosperous Community & Growth Now.In 1969, Smith was appointed office manager for the National Conference of Christians and Jews, under Ralph King. In 1971, she was named Pittsburgh's first African American consumer affairs investigative reporter for NBC/ WPXI Television. She was then hired as news and public affairs director for Sheridan Broadcasting in 1975, and hosted a talk show on Sheridan's flagship station, WAMO. In 1977, Smith became the director of consumer affairs, as well as energy coordinator of her county in Pennsylvania. That same year, she moved her radio show to KDKA, where she also hosted a television show called Vibrations. Smith then became a radio host for Miami's WGBS (now WNMS) in 1979, and Orlando's WKIS in 1985. In 1988, Smith began hosting a local radio program in Washington D.C., as well as the national Black Entertainment Television talk show "Our Voices," which she hosted for over thirteen years.In 1998, Smith became the host of "The Bev Smith Show," on American Urban Radio Networks, which made her the only African American female radio talk show host with a nationally syndicated show in the country. Smith signed off the air as host of her show in 2011.Smith has received nearly 300 awards and recognitions for her contributions to radio and television, including the Spirit of Democracy Award, the Radio Air Crystal Award and the prestigious Max Robinson Award. She has also been selected by Talkers magazine as one of the most important radio talk show hosts in America.Bev Smith was interviewed by The HistoryMakers on June 9, 2014.© 2022 All Rights Reserved© 2022 Building Abundant Success!!Join Me on ~ iHeart Radio @ https://tinyurl.com/iHeartBASSpot Me on Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/yxuy23baAmazon Music ~ https://tinyurl.com/AmzBASAudacy:  https://tinyurl.com/BASAud

Jamal Woodson of WAMO 107.3 joins Rick Dayton for the first-ever edition of The City Beat. 

Actress/Dancer/Social Media Marketing Consultant Amanda Hall, A.K.A. “Tenda,” stops by the show to discuss her acting career, her creation of Point Park University's hip hop dance team, IMPULSE, and her experiences working with celebrities as an intern at the Pittsburgh radio station WAMO 107.3.

General manager of WAMO 100.1 FM Jamal Woodson joins Marty with his protégé Divine Johnson. Woodson and Johnson give their thoughts on a viral video and talk about Johnson's upbringing and his future podcast. Marty Griffin is live on Newsradio KDKA 9am-Noon on weekdays.

Migros Up grup müdürü Dr. Ayşegül Özkavukcu ve Hergele Mobility kurucu ortağı Lal Polater, Boş İşler ve Start Point podcast kanallarımızda yaptığımız çapraz yayında konuğumuz oldular. 

Migros Up grup müdürü Dr. Ayşegül Özkavukcu ve Hergele Mobility kurucu ortağı Lal Polater, Boş İşler ve Start Point podcast kanallarımızda yaptığımız çapraz yayında konuğumuz oldular. 

Last month, the communications giant Audacity — which already owned KDKA and a slew of radio and television stations across the country — purchased WAMO, an iconic and influential radio station for Pittsburgh's Black community. Today City Cast Pittsburgh host Morgan Moody talks with Brian Cook, president of the Pittsburgh Black Media Federation, about the history of WAMO, his own experiences with the station, and whether a new owner could bring WAMO back to prominence.  Read more about Audacity's purchase from Jordana Rosenfeld in Pittsburgh City Paper: https://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsburgh/wamo-1073-pittsburghs-home-for-hip-hop-purchased-by-audacy/Content?oid=21344112  And follow Brian Cook and WAMO on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/goldenskymedia — https://www.instagram.com/wamo1073pgh/ Our newsletter is fresh daily at 6 a.m. Sign up here. We're also on Twitter @citycastpgh & Instagram @CityCastPgh!

Merhaba teknoloji sever, hem seni daha iyi tanımak hem de içeriklerimizi senin daha çok işine yarayacak hale getirmek için bir anket hazırladık. Ankete buraya tıklayarak ulaşabilirsin, bizim için fikirlerin çok önemli. Mail bültenimize abone olmak için tıklayın. 5 Dakikada Teknoloji Gündemi Tarih: 31 Mart 2022 Migros UP ve Hergele Mobility Ortak İnovasyonu Wamo'nun lansmanı gerçekleşti. Twitter, Instagram benzeri Collabs özelliği üzerinde çalışıyor. İkinci el mobilya satışına odaklanan e-ticaret girişimi Kaiyo 36 milyon dolar yatırım aldı. Doğan Holding, Karel'in yüzde 40 hissesini satın alıyor. Podcast Boş İşler'de Önceki Bölümlerimiz

Ever wonder why the American capitol is chock full of columns, pediments, and triglyphs, or why the Washington Monument appears supremely suited for roasting large quantities of meat? Then this is the episode for you. The guys begin their journey way back in the 18th century when Europe was undergoing a wave of “Greek Fever” and “Egyptomania”. They had it all:  romantic poems, shady trinket collections, and enlightened revolutions which eventually spilled over into neo-classical architecture. And this still 'colors' the way we recall and interpret the ancient world. Thus the obelisk of WaMo and the Pantheon-y JeMe flexing its dome-court advantage. All very nice, but can it go too far? Did anybody really need a ripped, shirtless statue of George Washington throneing it up in the Capitol rotunda? Tune in to find out.

Crack open a six pack of WAMO brand soda and listen as we chat about DINOSAURS IN A MINING FACILITY (2018)! But does this movie have chainsaws, minor/miner jokes, and a giant floating purple head, you ask? YES! So listen to Part 2 of "ADVENTURES IN MINING!" on CULT and CLASSIC Podcast at https://cultandclassicpodcast.com/, or wherever you get your podcasts! Last week: Part 1 - “BLADE RUNNER: FINAL CUT" (1982/2007)! Host: Nate Wyckoff Panelists: Tad Mastroianni & Jeffrey Tucker Support this podcast

Willkommen zurück aus der Sommerpause! Wir starten gleich mit einem spannenden und interessanten Interview. Im Founder-Talk zu Gast: Sebastian Lemke, Gründer und CEO der e-Ray Europa GmbH aus Darmstadt. Sebastian baut mit seinem Team ein „kleines Boot“ -den WAMO 360-, das voll bepackt mit Technik und Sensoren ist. Das Boot kann in vielen Gewässern wie zum Beispiel Seen oder Flüssen eingesetzt werden und dort die Wasserqualität überwachen oder das Risiko- und Warnmanagement für Anwohner optimieren. Vor allem das schnelle Risiko- & Warnmanagement spielt durch die klimatischen Veränderungen eine immer wichtigere Rolle, um in Zukunft Flutkatastrophen wie in Bad Neuenahr-Ahrweiler zu verhindern. Mit Sebastian spreche ich über die Herausforderungen eines Energy-Tech Startups, dessen Kunden hauptsächlich im Public Sector zu finden sind und über Tipps, wie man mit Kundenfeedback umgeht. Links zur Sendung: http://eepurl.com/hrcZC9 - STARTUPS FROM SCIENCE Newsletter https://www.e-ray.eu/ http://Hochwasserwarnung.net/ https://startupsfromscience.com/ STARTUPS FROM SCIENCE auch auf LinkedIN: https://www.linkedin.com/company/startups-from-science

Today we talk to Cristina McComic our practice leader from the San Francisco area. She talks to us about WAMO, mindfulness and mamy activities happening on the West Coast and also her personal journey into mindfulness. She also leads us into a powerful energising and grounding practice. Enjoy and thank you for listening.

From CNN, BET, AURN I'm LIVE in Studio Talking w the Legendary Journalist & Talk Show Host Bev Smith This March, America marks a Historic Events It's Women's History Month, Bev's Birthday & The Anniversary of the Selma Marches for Voter's Rights. Voters Rights Now.......... He-La Cells is being Researched for a Cure for COVID, We Talk Black Inventors, Newspapers, Media, Community. Many Black & People of many cultures & races marched for civil rights . How have we fared since then? Talk Media Icon Bev Smith & I discuss History, Church, "Good Trouble" for America & Urban-American in the 21st Century. The collective efforts of many American's & cultures have helped this country grow economically, educationally & socially. Bev gives us her insight & tells us some of her experiences during her years in the industry. Bev is a History Maker, among Most Important Syndicated Talk Show Hosts in America. Smith began her television and radio career in 1971 when she was named Pittsburgh’s first African-American Consumer Affairs Investigative Reporter for WPXI Television. In 1975, she was named News and Public Affairs Director for Sheridan Broadcasting and hosted a lively talk show on Sheridan's flagship station, WAMO. Since then, Bev Smith has taken her “fire brand” style of talk shows to KDKA and WTAE Radio in Pittsburgh, WNWS in Miami, WKIS in Orlando and WRC in Washington DC. Bev also worked at Black Entertainment Television for over thirteen years, as the host of the popular national television talk show "Our Voices." In 2011, Bev signed off the air as host of "The Bev Smith Show" which was heard on the American Urban Radio Networks, where she was fondly known by many of her fans as "The Queen of Late Night Talk." She hosted the show since 1998, and was the only African American woman radio talk show host who had a nationally syndicated show in the country and was the only African American woman to host a nationally syndicated Radio show. Bev captures her audience with the latest news makers. Never afraid to tackle issues, she has lived with the homeless, walked the streets investigating prostitutes, raised money for babies with AIDS and talked with inmates on death row. She has interviewed personalities such as President Barack Obama, Bill Cosby, Cyril Wecht, MD, JD, Vice President Al Gore, Jesse Jackson, Maxine Waters, Al Sharpton and a host of guests, many of whom she now refers to as her “special 20 friends .Bev Smith Show offers a "Unique Community Connection," African-Americans know and trust her to deliver critical information and entertainment news. Bev is especially passionate and devoted to educating the public about literacy; she has worked with a number of organizations focused on improving literacy in the nation, including "Reading is Fundamental" and "Head Start." Bev is honored with the; “The Bev Smith Library Room” will open at the newly designed Garfield Commons –Community Room at the Pride Center, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The Bev Smith library room is a multi-purpose learning room that will be available for to help youth and adults grow in literacy through reading. She has received nearly 300 awards, citations and trophies for her contributions in radio and television, including the Spirit of Democracy Award, the Radio Air Crystal Award and the prestigious Max Robinson Award. She has also been selected by Talkers magazine as one of the most important radio talk show hosts in America.For the past five years. Bev is also diligently working on her life story in a biography that will tell more about her experience working in an industry that didn’t always welcome her with open arms because of her color, gender and now her age. © 2021 All Rights Reserved © 2021 BuildingAbundantSuccess!! Join Me on ~ iHeart Radio @ https://tinyurl.com/iHeartBAS Spot Me on Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/yxuy23ba

Ethiopia, kampeni ya kitaifa ya chanjo dhidi ya ugonjwa wa surua iliyoanza mwezi Juni mwaka huu, imeanza kuonesha mwitikio mkubwa hata miongoni mwa wazazi wa kiume.

From CNN, BET, AURN - a Multiple Honored Top Radio Talk Show Host in America, Bev Smith has been guest on CNN. I had a great time listening & learning from talk media icon Bev Smith. We discuss Innovation, Economics & Entrepreneurship for African-American's in the 21st Century. The collective efforts of many American's & cultures have helped this country grow economically, educationally & socially. Bev gives us her insight & tells us some of her experiences during her 43 years in the industry. Bev is Pioneer among the Most Important Talk Show Hosts in America. Smith began her television and radio career in 1971 when she was named Pittsburgh’s first African-American Consumer Affairs Investigative Reporter for WPXI Television. In 1975, she was named News and Public Affairs Director for Sheridan Broadcasting and hosted a lively talk show on Sheridan's flagship station, WAMO. Since then, Bev Smith has taken her “fire brand” style of talk shows to KDKA and WTAE Radio in Pittsburgh, WNWS in Miami, WKIS in Orlando and WRC in Washington DC. Bev also worked at Black Entertainment Television for over thirteen years, as the host of the popular national television talk show "Our Voices." In 2011, Bev signed off the air as host of "The Bev Smith Show" which was heard on the American Urban Radio Networks, where she was fondly known by many of her fans as "The Queen of Late Night Talk." She hosted the show since 1998, and was the only African American woman radio talk show host who had a nationally syndicated show in the country and was the only African American woman to host a nationally syndicated Radio show. Bev captures her audience with the latest news makers. Never afraid to tackle issues, she has lived with the homeless, walked the streets investigating prostitutes, raised money for babies with AIDS and talked with inmates on death row. She has interviewed personalities such as President Barack Obama, Bill Cosby, Cyril Wecht, MD, JD, Vice President Al Gore, Jesse Jackson, Maxine Waters, Al Sharpton and a host of guests, many of whom she now refers to as her “special 20 friends. Bev Smith Show offers a "Unique Community Connection," African-Americans know and trust her to deliver critical information and entertainment news. Bev is especially passionate and devoted to educating the public about literacy; she has worked with a number of organizations focused on improving literacy in the nation, including "Reading is Fundamental" and "Head Start." Bev is honored that in spring 2012; “The Bev Smith Library Room” will open at the newly designed Garfield Commons –Community Room at the Pride Center, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The Bev Smith library room is a multi-purpose learning room that will be available for to help youth and adults grow in literacy through reading. Over the years, Bev has received nearly 300 awards, citations and trophies for her contributions in radio and television. For the past five years, Bev Smith has been selected by Talkers Magazine as one of the one of the most important radio talk show hosts in America; she still ranks as one of the top 50 in the nation. Today, Bev is busy traveling the country doing what she does best, using her voice to share knowledge and find ways to uplift and unite the African American community with people of color globally. Bev is also diligently working on her life story in a biography that will tell more about her experience working in an industry that didn’t always welcome her with open arms because of her color, gender and now her age. © 2020 All Rights Reserved © 2020 Building Abundant Success!! Join Me on ~ iHeart Radio @ https://tinyurl.com/iHeartBAS Spot Me on Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/yxuy23ba

Nchini Jamhuri ya Kidemokrasia ya Congo, DRC shughuli za ulinzi wa amani zinazofanywa na walinda amani wa Umoja wa Mataifa kutoka Tanzania wa kikosi cha 7, TANZBATT 7 cha kikosi cha kujibu mashambulizi FIB cha ujumbe wa Umoja wa Mataifa wa kulinda amani

“Never a dull moment, which is what I’ve always loved about this industry ‘cause it changes, the opportunities change and you know it’s infectious….I think what’s fun about it now what’s exciting about it now is technology now plays such a huge role in transit that we’re getting all of these just young and smart bright people in the industry “  Dick Alexander, CEO of TransDev, the largest privately owned transportation company in the world, and Chairman of the North American Transit Alliance (NATA), joins Transit Unplugged to discuss his passion for transit scheduling, and his fascinating career (he was appointed CEO of TransDev two days before Covid-19 officially rocked the transit world). He shares his views on the evolving nature of transit, the importance of NATA, and the role that private contractors play.  This episode features an inside look at some of the innovative programs and developments spearheaded by TransDev (like the operation of TransDev Alternative Services, Google’s WAMO operation for autonomous vehicles, operated by 1,000 employees in multiple centers) and how Dick has led the company through the Covid crisis. He discusses his views on the future of public transportation, including how patterns, delivery systems, and the measurement of the value of transit will continue to change, and the role technology plays in all of it.  If you want to know more about TransDev, check out their website.   Remember to check out transitunplugged.com to learn from top transit professionals and stay updated on all the latest industry trends. 

A slain FBI agent is a tragedy all by itself. But what if that agent is the only one who was Black?  The erupting racial tensions of today mirror the volatile civil rights era in the 1960s. Edwin R. Woodriffe walked a fine line between the honor, respect, and sacrifice of his own people and the job that he loved... And both worlds came at a life-changing cost to him and to his family. Author Lee Woodriffe was five years old when her father became the only African American FBI Special Agent to be killed in the line of duty. On January 8, 1969, an escaped fugitive robbed a Maryland bank and within just one hour, two FBI agents were dead. The event, at that time, would inspire the most massive manhunt in the history of the nation's capital.  Lee Woodriffe shares how she was able to finally write this book, how it took a village to gather the details how the times then and now have many parallels and what it took to have her dad remembered. Lee Woodriffe doesn’t fit into any one kind of box. To some, the road taken to become an author makes no sense, yet makes perfect sense. Maybe that’s the classic Libra in her; always dueling sides for the most harmonious outcome. One thing is true, every road prepared her to become a novelist. Finding her love of writing as a journalism major at Point Park University, spending hours developing her broadcasting voice at WAMO, SBN, WEEP and WDSY radio stations in Pittsburgh. Or possibly the on-air television experience she gained as a travel analyst in Washington, DC, or the decades spent honing her craft as a stage, film, and television actress. It may have been through the hard knocks experience of running a business and the discipline needed to see it grow for over 10 years. It might be all, or it may be a simpler truth: She just wanted to tell her father’s story. Lee Woodriffe is a risk taker. She thrives on exploration and succeeding in tasks that others say are impossible. After all, what gives Lee the chops to write a book? Maybe the same courage that has led her to sky dive, scuba dive, white water raft, jump Herkies on the skywalk at the Grand Canyon, sand dune in open buggies in the middle east or ride on an elephant’s neck in the jungles of Thailand. She does that which she thinks she can’t and makes it reality. It all makes for a good story, and that’s how Lee wants it. She just wants to tell a story. And when it’s time to cuddle, her Chihuahua/Rat Terrier mix, Chili, is always close by.

Jeremy our insurance guru returns to give our Tesla group some education on car insurance as well as what Tesla is doing to the market with their cars as well as creating their own insurance company. We also talk about the potential autonomous ride share Tesla is creating compared to the existing companies like WAMO, Lyft and UBER.  

Jeremy our insurance guru returns to give our Tesla group some education on car insurance as well as what Tesla is doing to the market with their cars as well as creating their own insurance company. We also talk about the potential autonomous ride share Tesla is creating compared to the existing companies like WAMO, Lyft and UBER.

Ki Ki, LaShawn, and Gerri return for a special HGH Podcast w/special guests Portia Foxx (radio personality for WAMO 100) and Nadia Stanley, author of "I Know Why You're Single, Sis". COVID-19 is the subject this week: how are you coping with "social distancing", dating sites, Hood-Heroes, and Ki Ki is one on one w/ Nadia Stanley to discuss her book on why women are still single.This week, the ladies use Zoom to record.

The ladies return for a special HGH Podcast w/ special guests Portia Foxx (WAMO 100) and Nadia Stanley, author of "I Know Why You're Single, Sis". COVID-19 is the subject this week: how are you coping with "social distancing", dating sites, Hood-Heroes, and Ki Ki is one on one w/ Nadia Stanley to discuss her book on why women are still single. This week, the ladies use Zoom to record. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Summary: What do you get when the jagoffs crash a hipster party celebrating those who have passed? A lively and unique collaboration and podcast with Pittsburgh's hippest organizers including City Paper and Keep Pittsburgh Dope. We chatted with Chancelor Humphrey, Cody Baker of Creatives Drink, City Paper Organizer Bryer Blumenschein, podcaster Joey Bag of Donuts and Haunted Pittsburgh Walking Tour Guide, Hadyn Thomas. Music: Dj Mix from Dia De Los Muertos SPONSOR: Rohrich Honda knows that the giving season is upon us, so give Rohrich Honda a try with a Fit, CRV or Pilot to name a few. There are plenty of options that fit any lifestyle and budget.  Check out the Rohrich Advantage and experience more than just a one-time buy.  As always visit www.rohrich.com Question of the Day: Must have at any celebration? 0: 58   Opening Blog posts: Choc It Up Have a Huggie Halloween Trick or Treat Changes Dia De Los Muertos Coming Up: Nov. 9th Wendell August—Black and Gold Day at the Forge 5:00     Cody Baker, Creatives Drink gives us the perfect formula to creating a hip and happening shindig with any theme.  What big city gives him the most inspiration? 13:37    Haydn Thomas, Haunted Pittsburgh Tours:  Channeling his inner Monopoly guy, this GUYde could explain anywhere about anything, and has.  His passion for history and radio voice provide mucho job security. 29:27   Joey Bag of Donuts, “The Donut Bag” Podcast: A little bit of this and that creates the perfect mixed bag of topics for this must listen podcast.  But sports is his thing, and he plays a little one-word game regarding our ‘Burgh sports! 39:42     Chancellor Humphrey, WAMO 100.1, Keep Pittsburgh Dope: He's a DJ, he's a photographer, he's a brand killing it, and he helps throw a killer party at a church in Munhall! 51:01     Bryer Blumenschein,Pittsburgh City Paper, This is Red Event Space Our hostess with the mostest pointed out the elaborate costumes, amazing space ambience and reason to celebrate unique and cultural topics to keep Pittsburgh thriving! SPONSOR: Rohrich Honda is ready for November. The giving season is upon us, so give Rohrich Honda a try with a Fit, CRV or Pilot to name a few. There are plenty of options that fit any lifestyle and budget.  Check out the Rohrich Advantage and experience more than just a one-time buy.  As always visit www.rohrich.com   Find daily #Jagoffs posts at www.YaJagoff.com  * SEARCH: YaJagoff Podcast on the Radio.Com app!   How to Follow Everyone on Social Media: Rohrich Honda @RohrichHonda (Twitter) John Chamberlin @YaJagoff (Twitter) Rachael Rennebeck @RachaelRennebe3 (Twitter) Pittsburgh City Paper @PGHCityPaper Keep Pittsburgh Dope @KeepPittsburghDope (Instagram) Cody Baker @tehbakery (Instagram) Joey Bag of Donuts @JoeyBagovDonuts See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Summary: Jagoffs tipped some glasses with the Duffy Women and Chef D, and played a friendly game of wine not—jagoff style!  They also acquainted with the sounds of Walk-in Rosie and chatted wine-making with owner Lori Shumaker. Music:Walk-In Rosie SPONSOR: Rohrich Honda is ending October with a bang, so help get them ready for November. The giving season is upon us, so give Rohrich Honda a try with a Fit, CRV or Pilot to name a few. There are plenty of options that fit any lifestyle and budget.  Check out the Rohrich Advantage and experience more than just a one-time buy.  As always visit www.rohrich.com Question of the Day: What is the one thing that tempts you and gets you every time?  You basically say ‘Wine Not?' 1:12 Opening Blog posts: National “Bologna” Day? Zachary's Mission Honda Karaoke Bare-footed Airplane Jagoff Coming Up: November 1 Let's Make A Deal at 1010 Cedar November 2 Join Pittsburgh City Paper x Creatives Drink as we celebrate the festival of life and death. Dia de los Muertros with Soulection's DJ Sasha Marie x DJ Nugget -- hosted by WAMO's own Chancelor Humphrey 4:12 Lori Shumaker, Owner, Edgewood Winer and Event Center balanced a private party, multiple wine requests, plus the cheese plates didn't get mixed-up, and she still managed to tell us about her dad's vision of a winery packed with music and events. 11:44   The Duffy Women, Shelley, Sarah and Alex: We patched-in Alex from Chicago so we could get our fill of the trio's sass, candor and fun.  Which sister snuck out of the house pretending she was in the shower? Which one is most impressed with the art of motherhood? Listen as Mama Shelley keeps everything & everyone harmonious. 32:17    Chef “D,” Donato Coluccio, Certified Executive Chef: From what foods are really Italian to learning about what Pittsburgh needs to have as a food focus, Chef “D” challenges the typical food and wine pairing test....and wins! 54:00 Walk-in Rosie: Known for their classic rock sound, thanks to their dad and uncle, this crew of 12 siblings proves that a family who sings together stays together. There may have been a birth following this interview...   SPONSOR: Rohrich Honda is ending October with a bang, so help get them ready for November. The giving season is upon us, so give Rohrich Honda a try with a Fit, CRV or Pilot to name a few. There are plenty of options that fit any lifestyle and budget.  Check out the Rohrich Advantage and experience more than just a one-time buy.  As always visit www.rohrich.com   Find daily #Jagoffs posts at www.YaJagoff.com  * SEARCH: YaJagoff Podcast on the Radio Dot Com app!   How to Follow Everyone on Social Media: Rohrich Honda @RohrichHonda (Twitter) John Chamberlin @YaJagoff (Twitter) Rachael Rennebeck @RachaelRennebe3 (Twitter) Edgewood Winery and Event Center @EdgewoodWinery The Duffy Women @DuffyWomen Chef D @DiamondChefD (Instagram) Walk-in Rosie @WalkinRosie See omnystudio.com/policies/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Garrett Titlebaum: It's Nice To See He's Working RSS Not just an interview, it’s an experience!Great to get to know the journey of these two promoters, Jus Janell and TheRawRevJoy who have been able to expand to three different monthly venues in their first year booking The Giggles & Grub Club. I’ve had the good fortune to work both of the Denise & Earl’s venues along with a corporate event with the team at JanJoy and have had some very fun sets. As a Swissvale resident, it is great that they’ve been able to put up regular content at their Clubhouse for the VIP Red Carpet Event at T’s Restaurant and Lounge. Great chat. Please enjoy and check out their next experience on Saturday, August 24 at T’s Restaurant & Lounge for WAMO 100.1 Night.

This week, I sit with down Nigel McDaniel to talk about where he came up from, music, how he got into radio, his podcast @thenewwavepodcast, and so much more. I been trying to get Nigel in the chair for a minute. So dope to see other people in the city doing dope shit in their own way. You can hear Nigel on WAMO 100.1 or on The New Wave Podcast. I been listening to his podcast for a minute so I’m excited to chop it up with him and see how it came to be. Don’t sleep on this one. Follow The New Wave Podcast Check out the latest episode Follow Nigel on Instagram - Check out Payne Glasses at www.payneglasses.com MY WEBSITE IS LIVE. THERE IS BRAND NEW #ICYRB MERCH OUT NOW! CHECK IT OUT WWW.ILLCALLYOURIGHTBACK.COM - PLEASE TAKE A SECOND AND RATE AND REVIEW THIS PODCAST ON ITUNES! IT REALLY HELPS A INDEPENDENT PODCAST LIKE I'LL CALL YOU RIGHT BACK SO MUCH. THANKS IN ADVANCE - THIS PODCAST IS PROUDLY SPONSORED BY STREETS ON CARSON GO CHECK THEM OUT AND TELL THEM ICYRB SENT YOU! Follow Streets on Instagram - Intro Music created by Ryan Drish (@realdrish) Follow us on Instagram - @illcallyourightback Follow us on Twitter - @ICYRBpodcast Like us on Facebook - I'll Call You Right Back Podcast

Hey guys and gals!! Come join us for another episode of fishing the drink! Lots of fun tips and drama to talk about. Y’all rock and we enjoy sharing info with you guys. Check us out on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube! All @fishingthedrink. Stay fishing my friends!

27 year old Pittsburgh native RapStarr a.k.a. Hurricane Cam has a positive agenda to change the world when it comes to the Hip Hop culture. With his music; he plans to bring back the essence of lyricism, storytelling, and knowledge of historical events within the Hip Hop cultures. He would like to educate his fans with his songs. Having a mother who worked on the news side of Pittsburgh’s radio WAMO for 10-14 years, RapStarr grew up learning the ins and outs of the music business and radio. His love for Hip Hop as an artist began when he was 9 years old. He recalls a time when he bought his first CD, the “8 Mile” Soundtrack by Eminem (which was very instrumental to his career) as inspiration of himself getting into hip hop. RapStarr refers to several of legendary artists such as Eminem, 50 Cent/G-Unit, LL Cool J, 2pac, Lil’ Kim, Nas, and Krs-One as some of his influences growing up. He compares his style of lyrical content to the era of 1990’s and early 2000’s Hip Hop. Shows Stefon Braxton Show 2014-2017 All Talk No Filter 2017 (every Sunday 7pm est) ------- Mixtapes The Resurrection of Hip Hop -2014 No Warning Shots...Just Straight Shootin - 2015 Aint No Party Like A 90’s Party -2016 Hurricane Season ---- Magazines TruLife Magazine 2015 (front cover) 5Star Magazine 2016 Coast2Coast Mixtapes Magazine #70 July 2016 (front cover) In the words of a fan, “RapStarr is true Hip Hop”, and once you listen to his music you will strongly agree.  

The daily drive home mix 5pm @wamo100 mixed by The Mayor @mikejax

This week on "A Way with Words": Modern language with very old origins. If you're on tenterhooks, it means you're in a state of anxious anticipation or suspense. But what IS a tenterhook? The answer goes back to a 15th-century manufacturing process. Also, you probably have a term for those crumbs that collect in the corners of your eyes overnight. They go by lots of names, like "sleep" and "sand" and "eye boogers." But there's a medical term for them as well--one that goes back to ancient Greek. And where in tarnation did we get the word . . . tarnation? Plus, pie charts in other countries, a month of Sundays, euphemisms for vomiting, at the coalface, and the children's game, hull gull.FULL DETAILSPie charts were invented by the Scottish engineer William Playfair, but the name for these visual representations of data came later. In other countries, this type of graph goes by names for other round foods. In France, a pie chart is sometimes called a camembert, and in Brazil, it's a grafico de pizza.Few actions have as many slang euphemisms as vomiting. The sound itself is so distinct that it's inspired such onomatopoetic terms as ralphing, talking to Ralph on the big white phone or calling Earl.To be at the coalface means to be on the front lines--working at a practical level, rather than a theoretical one. The phrase is primarily British, and derives from the image of coal miners having direct contact with exposed ore.Young women used to be warned that a lady's name should appear in the newspaper only three times: at her birth, upon her marriage, and at her death. In much the same way, the admonition Don't get your name all up in the papers means "Don't do something brash"--an allusion to all the negative reasons one might find their name in the news. What 6-letter combination of initials would make a perfect title for a movie about elderly college athletes? NCAARP! Quiz Guy John Chaneski's puzzle this week features other portmanteau movie titles. In need of a creative insult? There's always When I'm done with you, there won't be enough left of you to snore. The idiom I haven't seen you in a coon's age, comes from an old reference to raccoons living a long time. Given the racial sensitivity involving the word, however, it's best to use an alternative.In Washington, DC, National Park Service employees refer to Ford's Theater as FOTH, Peterson House as PEHO, and the Washington Monument as WAMO.  The medical term for that grainy stuff that collects in the corner of your eyes when you sleep is rheum, but why call it that when you could call it sleepy sand or eye boogers?A 1904 dialect collection tipped us off to this variation on the idea of going to the land of milk and honey: Going to find the honey spring and the flitter tree, flitter being a variant of fritter, as in something fried and delicious. We talked about passed away versus died on a previous episode, and got a lot of responses on our Facebook page saying that phrases like "I'm sorry for your loss" don't do justice to the reality of what happened. Trace, used for locales like the Natchez Trace, refers to an informal road, like a deer trail or an Indian trail.Here's a riddle: What's green and smells like red paint? Where in tarnation did we get the phrase where in tarnation? Tarnation seems to be a variant of damnation. To be on tenterhooks, meaning to wait anxiously for something, comes from the tenterhooks on frames used for stretching out wool after it's washed.A month of Sundays, meaning "a long period," or "longer than I can actually figure out," goes at least as far back as the 1759 book The Life and Real Adventures of Hamilton Murray. --A Way with Words is funded by its listeners: http://waywordradio.org/donateGet your language question answered on the air! Call or write with your questions at any time:Email: words@waywordradio.orgPhone: United States and Canada toll-free (877) WAY-WORD/(877) 929-9673London +44 20 7193 2113Mexico City +52 55 8421 9771Donate: http://waywordradio.org/donateSite: http://waywordradio.org/Podcast: http://waywordradio.org/podcast/Forums: http://waywordradio.org/discussion/Newsletter: http://waywordradio.org/newsletter/Twitter: http://twitter.com/wayword/Skype: skype://waywordradio Copyright 2015, Wayword LLC.

This week on "A Way with Words": Modern language with very old origins. If you're on tenterhooks, it means you're in a state of anxious anticipation or suspense. But what IS a tenterhook? The answer goes back to a 15th-century manufacturing process. Also, you probably have a term for those crumbs that collect in the corners of your eyes overnight. They go by lots of names, like "sleep" and "sand" and "eye boogers." But there's a medical term for them as well--one that goes back to ancient Greek. And where in tarnation did we get the word . . . tarnation? Plus, pie charts in other countries, a month of Sundays, euphemisms for vomiting, at the coalface, and the children's game, hull gull.FULL DETAILSPie charts were invented by the Scottish engineer William Playfair, but the name for these visual representations of data came later. In other countries, this type of graph goes by names for other round foods. In France, a pie chart is sometimes called a camembert, and in Brazil, it's a grafico de pizza.Few actions have as many slang euphemisms as vomiting. The sound itself is so distinct that it's inspired such onomatopoetic terms as ralphing,  talking to Ralph on the big white phone or calling Earl.To be at the coalface means to be on the front lines--working at a practical level, rather than a theoretical one. The phrase is primarily British, and derives from the image of coal miners having direct contact with exposed ore.Young women used to be warned that a lady's name should appear in the newspaper only three times: at her birth, upon her marriage, and at her death. In much the same way, the admonition Don't get your name all up in the papers means "Don't do something brash"--an allusion to all the negative reasons one might find their name in the news. What 6-letter combination of initials would make a perfect title for a movie about elderly college athletes? NCAARP! Quiz Guy John Chaneski's puzzle this week features other portmanteau movie titles. A caller from Madison, Wisconsin, is editing a book about children's games from the 40's and 50's. One of them, hull gull, makes use of the English dialectal term hull meaning "to cover" or "hide." The game involves guessing how many beans are being covered.In need of a creative insult? There's always When I'm done with you, there won't be enough left of you to snore. The idiom I haven't seen you in a coon's age, comes from an old reference to raccoons living a long time. Given the racial sensitivity involving the word, however, it's best to use an alternative.In Washington, DC, National Park Service employees refer to Ford's Theater as FOTH, Peterson House as PEHO, and the Washington Monument as WAMO.  The medical term for that grainy stuff that collects in the corner of your eyes when you sleep is rheum, but why call it that when you could call it sleepy sand or eye boogers?A 1904 dialect collection tipped us off to this variation on the idea of going to the land of milk and honey: Going to find the honey spring and the flitter tree, flitter being a variant of fritter, as in something fried and delicious. We talked about passed away versus died on a previous episode, and got a lot of responses on our Facebook page saying that phrases like "I'm sorry for your loss" don't do justice to the reality of what happened. Trace, used for locales like the Natchez Trace, refers to an informal road, like a deer trail or an Indian trail.Here's a riddle: What's green and smells like red paint? Where in tarnation did we get the phrase where in tarnation? Tarnation seems to be a variant of damnation. To be on tenterhooks, meaning to wait anxiously for something, comes from the tenterhooks on frames used for stretching out wool after it's washed.A month of Sundays, meaning "a long period," or "longer than I can actually figure out," goes at least as far back as the 1759 book The Life and Real Adventures of Hamilton Murray. ….Support for A Way with Words comes from The Ken Blanchard Companies, celebrating 35 years of making a leadership difference with Situational Leadership II, the leadership model designed to boost effectiveness, impact, and employee engagement. More about how Blanchard can help your executives and organizational leaders at kenblanchard.com/leadership.--A Way with Words is funded by its listeners: http://waywordradio.org/donateGet your language question answered on the air! Call or write with your questions at any time:Email: words@waywordradio.orgPhone: United States and Canada toll-free (877) WAY-WORD/(877) 929-9673London +44 20 7193 2113Mexico City +52 55 8421 9771Donate: http://waywordradio.org/donateSite: http://waywordradio.org/Podcast: http://waywordradio.org/podcast/Forums: http://waywordradio.org/discussion/Newsletter: http://waywordradio.org/newsletter/Twitter: http://twitter.com/wayword/Skype: skype://waywordradio Copyright 2014, Wayword LLC.

Cathy Levy chats with dancer-choreographer Kyle Abraham who was at Canada's National Arts Centre in February 2014 to perform The Radio Show with his company Abraham.In.Motion. Kyle talks about his childhood in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and how his passion for music led him to dance. With the support and guidance of his parents and teachers he pursued dance studies and eventually joined David Dorfman Dance and Bill T. Jones/Arnie Zane Dance Company. Kyle explains how The Radio Show, originally conceived as an homage to his father, also became a tribute to the Pittsburgh radio station WAMO. He then reflects on the accolades and awards he and his work received in late 2000 in the form of a Bessie Award and an important mention in Dance Magazine, as he and his company were struggling. Kyle Abraham also talks about his collaboration with world-class ballerina Wendy Whelan as well as the significance of receiving a MacArthur Foundation Fellowship, being named the 2012-2014 New York Live Arts Resident Commissioned Artist, and being labeled the “best and brightest creative talent to emerge in New York City in the age of Obama”. Finally, he gives us a sneak peak at his works in development.

From CNN, BET, AURN - Bev Smith is a frequent guest on CNN. This week America marks a Historic Site w the U. S. Department of Interior. Many people of many cultures & races marched for civil rights for all people. How have we fared since then? Talk Media Icon Bev Smith & I discuss Innovation, Economics & Business for America & Urban-American in the 21st Century. The collective efforts of many American's & cultures have helped this country grow economically, educationally & socially. Bev gives us her insight & tells us some of her experiences during her 43 years in the industry. Bev is among Most Important Talk Show Hosts in America. Smith began her television and radio career in 1971 when she was named Pittsburgh’s first African-American Consumer Affairs Investigative Reporter for WPXI Television. In 1975, she was named News and Public Affairs Director for Sheridan Broadcasting and hosted a lively talk show on Sheridan's flagship station, WAMO. Since then, Bev Smith has taken her “fire brand” style of talk shows to KDKA and WTAE Radio in Pittsburgh, WNWS in Miami, WKIS in Orlando and WRC in Washington DC. Bev also worked at Black Entertainment Television for over thirteen years, as the host of the popular national television talk show "Our Voices." In 2011, Bev signed off the air as host of "The Bev Smith Show" which was heard on the American Urban Radio Networks, where she was fondly known by many of her fans as "The Queen of Late Night Talk." She hosted the show since 1998, and was the only African American woman radio talk show host who had a nationally syndicated show in the country and was the only African American woman to host a nationally syndicated Radio show. Bev captures her audience with the latest news makers. Never afraid to tackle issues, she has lived with the homeless, walked the streets investigating prostitutes, raised money for babies with AIDS and talked with inmates on death row. She has interviewed personalities such as President Barack Obama, Bill Cosby, Cyril Wecht, MD, JD, Vice President Al Gore, Jesse Jackson, Maxine Waters, Al Sharpton and a host of guests, many of whom she now refers to as her “special 20 friends.Bev Smith Show offers a "Unique Community Connection," African-Americans know and trust her to deliver critical information and entertainment news. Bev is especially passionate and devoted to educating the public about literacy; she has worked with a number of organizations focused on improving literacy in the nation, including "Reading is Fundamental" and "Head Start." Bev is honored that in spring 2012; “The Bev Smith Library Room” will open at the newly designed Garfield Commons –Community Room at the Pride Center, located in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The Bev Smith library room is a multi-purpose learning room that will be available for to help youth and adults grow in literacy through reading. Over the years, Bev has received nearly 300 awards, citations and trophies for her contributions in radio and television. For the past five years, Bev Smith has been selected by Talkers Magazine as one of the one of the most important radio talk show hosts in America; she still ranks as one of the top 50 in the nation. Today, Bev is busy traveling the country doing what she does best, using her voice to share knowledge and find ways to uplift and unite the African American community with people of color globally. Bev is also diligently working on her life story in a biography that will tell more about her experience working in an industry that didn’t always welcome her with open arms because of her color, gender and now her age. Her Website is:www.bevsmithtalks.com © 2014 Building Abundant Success!! 2014 All Rights Reserved Join Me on Facebook @ https://www.facebook.com/BuildingAbundantSuccess

Pat Freeman from Sports Director, WUFO 1080 AM Buffalo will give us a  live report at the Super Bowl! Kevin Corke of CBSSports.com will also give us a live report and other news and notes live at the big game! Plus breaking news, scores, updates and Tony and I will give our predictions of who will win the Superbowl! Follow us at padnation@facebook and pad4truth@twitter Interested in advertising on the show, e-mail us at labatchelor40@gmail.com AND DON'T FORGET TO CHECK OUT THE BATCHELOR PAD BLUES AND JAZZ SHOW FROM 8PM TO 11PM EST at www.bluesjazzradio.com

Guest: Vigalantee from BOSS Sports will give his thoughts on the Super Bowl matchup, the Richard Sherman contraversy and other related topics. Steve Gallo,NFL Analyst/IDP Writer,USA TODAY Sports Media Group/The Huddle will preview the Super Bowl,give his predictions and other news and notes live at the Super Bowl! Pat Freeman from WAMO in Buffalo, NY will recap media day live at the Super Bowl! Plus breaking news, scores, updates and "DIS N DAT WITH TEE-MAC" Tuesday evening rant! Follow us at padnation@facebook and pad4truth@twitter Interested in advertising on the show, e-mail us at labatchelor40@gmail.com AND DON'T FORGET TO CHECK OUT THE BATCHELOR PAD BLUES AND JAZZ SHOW FROM 8PM TO 11PM EST at www.bluesjazzradio.com

new hip hop stuff that I threw together for your listening pleasure. Nothing fancy just something to get you caught up in 2013.

Some fun jams about mom. Happy Mother's Day 2013!

A lil moomba mix for you, perfect for a zumba class or your workout.

the latest uncut new hip hop jams with words, verbs and music from @bwhite58s

1/11/13 Happy 42nd Birthday to Mary J Blige!

July 21,2012 Consol Energy Center Rick Ross, Tyga, Wale, Meek Mill, Adam D, Kardinal Offishall, Loren Knight, and more! Get your tickets at ticketmaster.com

the latest bangers and @i_whitemike with the words and verbs. Enjoy. Shouts to:hiphopvip.comwamo100.compowerinternetradio.comfirstclassblogs.blogspot.com

Featuring artists coming to The Burgh May 26th with Drake on the Club paradise Tour. Traffic Jam as it aired 5/15/12 with no talking or drops. Enjoy!

the latest hip hop joints, turn it up

Some of my favorite Heavy D jams.

The Waterbury Arts Magnet School WAMO Awards