Podcast appearances and mentions of sarah penna

In this episode of The Influence Factor, Alessandro Bogliari, CEO and Co-Founder of The Influencer Marketing Factory, speaks with Sarah Penna, SVP of the Creator Team at Orca, about the dynamic world of social commerce and live stream shopping. Sarah shares her journey, from founding the first YouTube talent management company (later acquired by DreamWorks) to her mission of helping creators connect with fans and earn a living. She explains how Orca supports creators and brands through live streaming, short-form video, and affiliate marketing. Sarah also provides actionable tips for hosting successful live streams, emphasizing audience engagement, product knowledge, and creating urgency with giveaways and discounts. Additionally, she highlights the importance of trust, brand recognition, and evolving platforms to better support creators' long-term growth and success.

Social media platforms in chaos, creators dependent on algorithms for monetization — there's got to be a better way! Patreon's Head of Creator Partnerships, Sarah Penna, digs into the challenges with our current creator economy and shares her best advice for long-term creator success. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

ENTERTAINING SHORT FILMS is a new category on the RPA Network, which features indie short films for your enjoyment! We applaud these creators! A multi-era tale of immortality and time-travel! Prepare yourself for an adventure! Directed By: Joe Penna Written By: Joe Penna & Ryan Morrison Executive Producer: Joe Penna, Sarah Penna, Byron Ashley Production Manager: Michael Green Producer: Karolyn Szot 1st AD: Ryan Morrison 2nd AD: Karolyn Szot Director of Photography: Jan Michael-Losada Actors: THE IMMORTAL: Ray Trickitt WADE: Circus-Szalewski CECILIA: Jade Harlow AVA: Amanda Christensen TV HOST: Jay Jackson CARTER: Chidi Ajufo WARNER: Michael Reed BANKER: Jason Horton BENEDICT: Emilio Palame YOUNG FRENCH WOMAN: Cassidi Leigh Parker OLD FRENCH WOMAN: Rhoda Pell ADOLESCENT MONK: Jeremy Jude CHILD MONK: Brayden Ferrell STEWARDESS: Debby Gerber STEWARDESS 2: Leeron Amiel CYPRA BOSS: Shawn Boyd CUSTODIAN: Jim Donnelly HEAD RESEARCHER: Scott Speiser DOCTOR: Jason Paul Field MUGGER: Vlad Varro YOUNG WADE: Kellen Ford CYPRA EMPLOYEES: Mahedi Rakib Lan Doan Elizabeth Betta Mason Hankins Elena Choo Meredith Thomas Dennis Pastorizo K. Cameron Lau

Ambitious women - this episode is for you.Sarah Penna is a digital media pioneer, serial entrepreneur, mom of 1 (90% OK with this choice at the time of the recording), wife to the one-time-number-6-most popular YouTube talent, and this week's FIA woman. Sarah had a goal to build and sell a company before she turned 30. And, she did it with 15 days to spare, while also expecting her first (and only - more on that, too) child.She's the kind of woman you look at in awe, saying, "wow, does she have it all?"Like anything, the answer is, "it depends."  This conversation spans ambition, the pressure of "peaking early," motherhood, mental health, reinvention, and why it's so important to have compassion for yourself every single day. Hit play, and remember who TF you are because, like Sarah says, at the end of the day, "at least I was a pioneer."X,KLG

This interview features Brendan Gahan, Partner and Chief Social Officer at Mekanism. We discuss working with OG YouTubers like Smosh back in 2005, founding Epic Signal and selling it to his former employer, hanging out in El Salvador's Bitcoin Beach, why it takes him 100 drafts to publish content, the future of the creator economy, and learning how to enjoy what you create.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com---EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up. A podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Brendan Gahan:I felt like my strengths could be better utilized going off on my own. It was really as simple as, well, I want to do this work the way that I know how to do it and the way I want to do it. And if that takes me going off on my own, then that's what I'm going to do. So I did. In hindsight, it sounds much smarter than it was. It was not smart from like an on paper standpoint, but I just felt like it was the right thing for me to do because I've been doing it longer than most people, I have relationships, I have a sense of what strategically works. I want to do it the way that I want to do it. Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Brendan Gahan, partner and chief social officer at Mekanism. So Brendan was born in Ventura, California, and grew up surfing many local breaks. But although his parents were educators, he entered college without a career focus. But just a few weeks away from graduation, a last minute call from his uncle sparked his entry to media and advertising, and he never looked back. His career started at a creative agency working on some of the first YouTube campaigns with hit creators like Anthony Padilla and Ian Hecox's Smosh. With a growing reputation as a social and digital expert, Brendan eventually started his own agency, Epic Signal, which he ended up selling to Mekanism. Chris Erwin:Today, Brendan is their chief social officer. On the side he also publishes a wide array of content, making it one of the industry's most well regarded thought leaders. Some highlights of our chat include what it was like to sell his company to his former employer, why he's hanging out in El Salvador's Bitcoin Beach, how it took him 100 videos to post his first TikTok, the future of the creator economy, and learning how to enjoy what you create. All right, let's get to it. Chris Erwin:Brendan, thanks for being on The Come Up Podcast. Brendan Gahan:Thanks for having me, pumped to be here. Chris Erwin:We were just having a little chat about, you got a surf in this morning, if that's right. Brendan Gahan:I did. I'm working in El Salvador this week in a little town called Zonte, people may have heard of it referred to as Bitcoin Beach. And there's a nice little right hand point here, so made sure to get out there. Chris Erwin:Are you regular foot or goofy foot? Brendan Gahan:I'm regular, yeah. Chris Erwin:Okay, so you like the right-handers. I'm goofy, I like to go left. Brendan Gahan:Yeah, right hand point in particular, it's like my favorite kind of wave. I grew up in Ventura. So grew up surfing C Street, at the point in Ventura. And then every once in a while I would make the trek up to Rincon and stuff. Chris Erwin:I'm curious, where exactly did you grow up? Were you in the LA County or were you up north? Brendan Gahan:No, I was in Ventura. So there's Ventura County, which encompasses quite a bit of Southern California, but I grew up in the city of Ventura, maybe three quarters of a mile away from the beach, it's like a 15-minute walk or so, and yeah, it was great. Chris Erwin:Great. And do you still have family that's in Ventura? Brendan Gahan:Parents are still there. I've got some aunts, uncles, cousins in the area. And then my younger sister lives, she's still in Ventura County, but about 30 minutes away from where we grew up. Chris Erwin:I often talk about Southern California real estate. And you look at one of the few pockets in SoCal that's near the beach that has been underdeveloped is definitely Ventura. I think that's true for the last 30 years. I think that's finally starting to change, particularly during COVID and remote work. Have you seen that there? Brendan Gahan:Oh my gosh, it's crazy. I was just there this past weekend. And there's all these developments going up, like apartment complexes and condos, and yeah, it's sort of interesting. When you look at Ventura on a map, there's sort of like this no man's land between LA and Santa Barbara. And for years, Ventura was just sort of like overlooked. It was like people would pass through Ventura to go to either Santa Barbara or LA, but then more and more Ojai started to become a place, and Ventura has become a bit of a destination and there's now some startups out there. Before the biggest company there was Patagonia. Ventura, growing up was sort of like this blue collar cowboy meets surfer vibe for the most part. And yeah, that's definitely evolving. Chris Erwin:I think cowboy meets surfer vibe sounds about as good as it can get, you know? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, yeah. Chris Erwin:I forget who, but when I was at Big Frame almost 10 years ago now, I remember there were some industry friends that had set up shop in Ventura and were commuting to LA, and it was only about like an hour, hour and 15 away, not that crazy if you timed it right. So curious, looking at you being at the nexus of digital media and advertising and all the things, were there any media influences when you were there, when you were younger? Did that come from your parents or anything like that? Or was your upbringing focused on completely different things? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, definitely not. LA seemed like the furthest thing in the world to me growing up. And it seemed like a city, it may as well have been New York in my mind. Even though it was only like an hour and a half, we would go to LA on a field trip every couple years, or maybe my parents would take us there and we'd visit a museum or something like that. But it was not like a destination that was really on my radar. And from a professional standpoint where my head was at, I sort of had the cliche jobs in mind, it was like, oh, okay, maybe I'll be a teacher or a lawyer. A lot of people I knew growing up, and a number of relatives were like firemen, so my mind was sort of gravitating towards, I thought I'd either be a doctor, a lawyer or a psychologist. So I didn't have much of like a media or a tech influence until later. Chris Erwin:What did your parents do? Brendan Gahan:They were both in education. So my mom was a teacher's assistant in resource classes. And then my dad initially was like a teacher and then became a principal at a number of the special education schools in Ventura County. And then when he retired, he was the director of special education in Ventura. So education ran deep in the family, I guess. Chris Erwin:Yes. No, clearly understood. But I think you mentioned that you had an uncle that was in the media space, right? Brendan Gahan:That's right. Yeah, yeah. So I had an uncle who worked in advertising and he was at Wieden+Kennedy like in the heyday when it was like Bonos, Air Jordan, all that, when it was as big as it could get, and they lived a ways away. But whenever I saw him, I would just like pepper him with a million questions because to me, somebody working in advertising, in particular on like Nike and in that era, it wasn't just ads. It was like shifting culture, like Spike Lee and all that stuff. So I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. And I'd always ask him a million questions about it. But in my mind I never thought that I would end up working in that space. It seemed like this extra terrestrial sort of thing. Brendan Gahan:But he was always really cool. And he was like a creative director doing a lot of the Air Jordan spots and that sort of thing. So he always had funny stories he would share. And I just thought it was the coolest thing. I remember being in like elementary school, he'd visit or we'd go visit him, and I'd just pepper him with questions. So it was always sort of like seated in the back of my mind, but at the same time it felt unattainable, but I was really fortunate. Brendan Gahan:I don't know if we want to skip ahead too much, but basically he ended up offering me my first internship, totally came out of the blue. I got a phone call one day, I was like two days away from graduating from college. And I was about to go home for summer and work, and yeah, just out of the blue, he's like, "Hey, I got this guy on my team," he had started his own agency at this point, he's like, "And we need some young kid who understands digital," because this is 2005. And so I came up there and I interviewed with this guy he wanted me to intern for- Chris Erwin:But you did not go to college for this, if I understand correctly, you went to, is it UC Santa Cruz and you were psychology and history? Brendan Gahan:Yep. Yep. Chris Erwin:And again, you thought with that you were going to follow in your parents' footsteps, become an educator, or become a lawyer. Brendan Gahan:Something like that, yeah, I thought I was zeroing in on like teacher, lawyer or psychologist. I wasn't really sure what I was going to do. And psychology I always thought was fascinating. So I studied that, and then I realized two, three years in, I was like, oh, I've taken a ton of history courses and if I just take a few more, I can get a double major in apparently history, because of all the writing and stuff if I remember correctly, it was like not a bad thing to have if you were looking to get into law school. So it just kind of like was a circuitous path to get where I ended up. Chris Erwin:It didn't feel like you were overly passionate about anything at that point. I think you were open minded and you had some, call it nuclear, familial inspirations or influences. But when you got this call from your uncle, you're like, hey, this has been the cool uncle that was part of these massive sociocultural movements, Michael Jordan and Nike, I totally hear you. So when you got that call, were you really pumped up or was it, oh no, this sounds like something interesting and there's some direction and let's just go see what happens. Brendan Gahan:I was really pumped. I was also really torn because I was going to go home and work as a teacher's assistant for the summer and do summer school, which I know my parents were sort of excited about on so many different levels, because I'd be home. They would see me. They loved the idea of me getting into education, at least I'm pretty sure that's what they were excited about. And so I was like very torn, but also super excited. Brendan Gahan:And I went out and drove up to San Francisco for the interview. And I still remember walking into the ad agency office for the first time just being like, holy shit, this is so fucking cool. This is an office, people work out of here. It was like this creative space. And I remember thinking, especially as a college kid, wow, there's like a beer fridge and your pool table, and all these things. And obviously I knew work was happening, but it seemed like a great environment to get work done. I don't think I ever overdid it on any of the fun things, but it was like this relief to sort of have that there, and it felt really exciting to me. Chris Erwin:So then you get the job and you move up north. Brendan Gahan:Yep. Chris Erwin:What were you focused on in the beginning there? And then, I think from our notes that you did some early work with Smosh, is that right? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, exactly. So I did an internship and then I eventually got hired, and I was technically like a junior account executive. This was 2005, 2006, 2007, I think, and it was in the early, early days of social media and I was the youngest guy in the office. So people would ask me random questions, like, "What's the deal with MySpace, what happens on that?" Or, like Facebook, nobody else could get on Facebook because you still had to have your college email address. So I sort of found myself being this resource, and at the same time me being flabbergasted by the way advertising was being done. Brendan Gahan:I remember the first time I found out how much a billboard cost, and looking at that and being like, this is almost more than, I mean, I can't remember the number right now, but I remember thinking, this is about as much I make in a full year with my salary and being like, I don't think anyone does anything because of the billboard, or certainly not like a normal billboard ad, and seeing this huge disconnect between what drove people to do things and what people were genuinely excited about and where dollars were being allocated. Brendan Gahan:So I think I slowly started just embracing that and being like, to me, it was common sense to a certain extent, like, look, I can go on YouTube and I can see how many people watch this video. Why aren't we doing this? This shows millions of people. Once again, like walking down the street, I don't know of anybody who does anything because of a billboard. And so that sort of evolved, and I started just pitching ideas proactively. And I remember I even tried to pitch clients and stuff, and stuff I in hindsight probably didn't have- Chris Erwin:Existing clients of the agency, or were you doing some new business development? Brendan Gahan:All of the above. I remember reading about it in the ad trades, like, oh, so and so company fired their agency and I'd be like, well, why don't they work with us? And literally come up with ideas and mail them things, and like try and get a response. And I don't know, just like this sort of, we're a creative industry, let's be really creative. Chris Erwin:Was that the expectation from your role or was that you just having some gumption of being a self-starter? Brendan Gahan:Not to pat myself on the back, but I think it was definitely me sort of having a little bit of gumption. I think I also just didn't know. It was a relatively small loose agency. And so I thought, well, it wasn't like this is exactly how you're supposed to do this job, and this, this and this, I think creativity was really encouraged and so long as work was getting done, anything I wanted to do sort of beyond that was like, all right, yeah, sure, that sounds cool. Chris Erwin:So did that spirit, is that what drove you... Did you work directly with Smosh? What is that story there? Brendan Gahan:Yeah. So late 2006, this client the agency had had before I was even there, they came to the agency and they were like, "Hey, we want to do an ad campaign. We don't have a big budget." And it was a portable MP3 player. And the partners at the agency were talking about it right behind me. And they were about to turn it down. And it was one of those situations where in hindsight, yes, it was not much money, and they should have turned it down by all means. But I just butted in. I was like, "Hey, what if we pitched them this idea of getting these kids on YouTube to promote it. And we just rather than try and squeeze like a campaign into this budget, let's just do one video." Brendan Gahan:And so they were like, "Oh, that sounds kind of cool. Yeah, let's pitch it to the company, to the brand." And they bought it. I think I literally turned around after the partners said it was okay to pitch it to the client and I emailed Ian and Anthony, found their email on MySpace and they emailed me back that afternoon. And I think the next week they came by the office because they were just up in Sacramento area, so it wasn't too far. Chris Erwin:They were one of the biggest YouTube channels at the time, right? Just for context, this is 2005, 2006. Facebook had just started in '04. YouTube had just started in '04. Google bought them I think a couple years later. So Ian and Anthony were probably one of the biggest personalities on the platform at that time. Brendan Gahan:Yeah. I think they might have been number two. I know they eventually were number one for a couple of years, but I don't think they were quite number one yet. It was sort of like early days and there was a lot of jostling for position and stuff. Chris Erwin:So you got their emails from their MySpace page, you hit them up. That definitely wouldn't happen today, not as easy to go direct to the top creators. And then they came by your office, what happened? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, they came by, by that point we had gotten the thumbs up from the client to like, "Oh yeah, sure, we're down, if you can make it work." They came by the office, we literally got in a room and it was sort of funny. I remember nobody knew what you would charge for something like this, you know? So we were literally just kicking around like, what would you want to charge for this? I don't know, how much do you want to pay for this? Just going back and forth. And then finally, one of the partners was like, "Well, I don't know, would you guys do it for like 15 grand or something?" And they were like, "Probably, why don't we go back to..." I think Anthony's dad was an accountant or something like that. Brendan Gahan:And they were going to run it by him. I might have those details wrong, but they were like, it was basically like a, pretty sure that'll work. Let's go talk to our parents. And then they came back and they were like, sure, and so we did it, they made this video called Feet for Hands. I remember when it went live it crashed the client's website, which I thought was so fucking cool. I felt so validated. And then, yeah, it got like millions of views. And I just wanted to do that again and again, and again. And I saw what Mekanism was doing and my first boss at that agency, he'd left for Mekanism, Jason Harris, the president and CEO of Mekanism now. He joined Mekanism, became a partner. And we had a great working relationship. Brendan Gahan:I interned for him and stuff. And I showed in that video, I was like, look, look, look at this thing. It's got three million views. I know I can help you guys. I was so envious of the work they were doing. They were doing like early viral video stuff. And this is like 2006, 2007, when a lot of this stuff, people weren't paying attention at all. And so I was just so envious of the projects they were working on. And they brought me in for a few interviews and I literally met the whole agency, which at the time was pretty small, I think like twice. And then they hired me. Chris Erwin:Was this East Coast based? Brendan Gahan:This is all West Coast. They were in San Francisco, just a few blocks away from the office I was at, at the time, and then got hired, it was like Mekanism was doing a ton of branded content, viral video stuff but oftentimes without any paid media. The platforms, most of them didn't even have paid media as an option. I think at the time you could buy a YouTube homepage banner and that was it. Facebook didn't have it. There was no sort of formal way of promoting that stuff for the most part. So we sort of, myself and a couple other guys, younger guys, we built out a team over time that was the social media team. And we were just constantly coming up with different ways to promote content, doing everything from Reddit seeding to tons and tons of work with creators. We worked with all the big creators in those early days, which was great, because it was a small community. We got to make a lot of deeper relationships at the time. Chris Erwin:Yeah. And you were probably working with a lot of those creators direct versus now there's tons of representatives, managers and agencies, and sometimes you never even talk to the end talent, but back then probably different. Brendan Gahan:Oh, 100%, yeah. We would get pretty elaborate sometimes with these campaigns, we would do like in person summits and kickoffs. We worked with 20th Century Fox on some campaigns, and we would fly like 50 influencers in and a bunch obviously would be in LA, but host these elaborate dinners and events, and sometimes it'd be two, three days long where they're meeting with the execs, meeting with actors, kind of getting a download of the campaign, what the expectations were for them. Then we'd take them out, go partying. So it was cool. Got to spend a lot of face time with people and it was a really fascinating time. Chris Erwin:You were there for about five to six years at Mekanism, right? Brendan Gahan:Yeah. Chris Erwin:And then I think you transitioned to full screen after that for a brief stint, but then you started your own agency, Epic Signal. So what was the catalyst for you to leave this kind of the broader corporate support and other people that were helping elevate your career to say, I want to do something differently, I'm going to do it by myself. Brendan Gahan:I felt like full screen was exploding at the time. You know this, all the MCNs were blowing up, but I felt like there was a lot of distraction and stuff. And the thing that I was really passionate about at its core was the strategy in collaborating with both brands and creators to create something awesome. And I felt like full screen, it was like they were trying to grow this MCN, this network and make a scalable business. So it was a little bit different from what I was really passionate about. And so I left, I thought I was just going to take my time sort of consulting. But I mean, this was like when influencer marketing was reaching this new fevered pitch because... We talked about it yesterday. Sometime around there, Maker was acquired, all these clients that I'd worked with and people at different agencies that I'd worked with over the years came out of the woodwork and were like, we have to have an influencer strategy. Brendan Gahan:We have to have a YouTube strategy. And I'd been the, air quotes, like YouTube guy and influencer guy since 2006. So I was one of a handful of people who had sort of like this deep bench and experience in this niche. So all my old clients started hitting me up. All of a sudden I had more work than I could personally do. And slowly started hiring people just out of necessity, because I didn't want to say no to these awesome opportunities. I was like, oh crap. I get to work with Mountain Dew, hell yeah, let's do it. Chris Erwin:I do want to clarify, but when you went off on your own, I mean I'm sure look, as the industry is growing, Google original channels program happened in 2011, 2012, hundreds of millions of dollars of funding into digitally native production companies to fuel the overall video ecosystem to help you to recruit more advertisers. And so when you decided to go off on your own to start Epic Signal, why was that? Had you always wanted to be an entrepreneur? Did you think like, hey, I want to be an owner and I'm early in a very nascent industry and so this is scary, but I'm going to get an early foothold and see what happens. Brendan Gahan:It honestly wasn't as strategic as that, it was more like, I felt like my strengths could be better utilized going off on my own. And I like being really hands on and strategic. It was really as simple as, well, I want do this work the way that I know how to do it and the way I want to do it. And if that takes me going off on my own, then that's what I'm going to do. So I did. And in hindsight, it sounds much smarter than it was, it was not smart from like an on paper standpoint. I left full screen. I left my equity on the tape because I left just shy of a year, but I just felt like it was the right thing for me to do, because I knew, I'd seen this space grow so fast and I was like, I've been doing it longer than most people. I have relationships, I have a sense of what strategically works. I want to do it the way that I want to do it. And that just made me feel good, and so that's what I did. Chris Erwin:Now did you launch Epic Signal in LA or did you move to New York? Brendan Gahan:So I was in LA, but very quickly was splitting my time up between LA and New York. I was going back and forth. I'd spend two weeks in LA, two weeks in New York, back, forth, back forth constantly, and then was about to move to New York officially, I ended up having more clients there than anywhere else, more brands I was working with there than anywhere else. And then as I was sort of putting the plan together to do that, I ended up selling it. And then I had to move to New York, so it moved things along. Chris Erwin:That happened pretty quickly, right? Because I think you had Epic Signal for, was it a couple years before you sold it to Mekanism? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, I think it was just shy of two years. It was almost two full years, yeah. Chris Erwin:Okay. And when you decided to sell, how big was your team at that point? Brendan Gahan:It wasn't big. It was like a half dozen people. Chris Erwin:Okay. Why did you decide to sell? Brendan Gahan:I found myself in a situation where I was doing so much back office stuff. It was like the very thing that I left to go do was, I wanted to focus on the strategy and deal with that, do the actual work. And then what I found was, when you are an entrepreneur, it's very easy to get sucked into dealing with lawyers and accounts, and payroll, and all this stuff that is not fun, all that back office stuff. Chris Erwin:I'm feeling you right now on that. That's where I feel like I'm at with RockWater. Brendan Gahan:You try and delegate it, but it's like all these things get this overflow back to you. And so I was back in this situation where I was doing the work that wasn't making me happy. And at the same time, I sort of felt like I have this window of opportunity where it's like, this is a really small team, we're lean and mean. We've got great profit margins. We've also got dope clients. We were working with like ABI. We worked on Bud Light campaigns, Corona. We did work with several PepsiCo brands, a handful of others. So we had a dope roster of clients that we were working with, a handful of whom were on retainer. And I was like, we have this niche where we're focusing on helping brands with YouTube strategy and YouTube creators. And oftentimes, especially the bigger brands, like a Pepsi, Mountain Dew, they had multiple agencies and they would have like a social AOR even. Brendan Gahan:And they did have a social AOR, but I was like, it's only going to be a matter of time before I get squeezed out and they start offering this services that I'm sort of in this interesting niche I can offer at this time that they don't have. And so I felt like the cache of the brands that I had, the team in place, people would find it desirable because of the relationships and already booked revenue, and great team. And so I thought I'll try and capitalize on my time and see if I can make a deal happen. Brendan Gahan:And then I had a letter of intent on the table and I would call my old boss at Mekanism for advice. "Hey, I'm negotiating with these guys, and this is a deal on the table. Does this make sense? What should I push back on?" So he was aware that things were moving along. And basically I was in New York, I had signed a letter of intent, things were sort of going through due diligence and all that. And he was like, "Let's grab drinks." So I met up with him for a drink. He's like, "Just come back." I was like, "All right, well, I got a deal in hand if you can beat it, I'm down. Like let's do it." I loved working with him. Chris Erwin:Hey listeners, this is Chris Erwin. Your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work. And it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it everybody, let's get back to the interview. Chris Erwin:I have to ask, did you run a formal sales process where you decided to sell and then you're like, all right, here's the 20 best fit buyers that are out there and I'm going to go call them or I'm going to hire someone to dial for dollars on the company's behalf. And/or were you also just getting unsolicited in bounds that you were like, oh, hey, this is interesting. Maybe with the market timing, things that you were sharing, where there was a lot of brands had big agencies of record, you felt that you were going to get squeezed out. So now is the time to sell, what was that looking like? Brendan Gahan:Exactly that, but sort of like the inverse. Initially, I sort of had a hunch and so I sort of informally had some conversations and dinners with people where like, I didn't come right out and say, "Hey, I want to sell," I didn't want to come across as desperate. Because I mean, and I wasn't, I wasn't desperate, but I wanted to sell. But I would sort of just seed the idea, like, "Hey, I'm kicking around the idea of selling, I'd love to do X, Y, and Z. And like' Chris Erwin:Just like dating, the classic courting phase, you're just doing the dance. Brendan Gahan:Exactly. And then once people started expressing interests, I was like, okay, I'm definitely onto something. This is something I'm way out of my depth on. So I asked around and some buddies recommended some lawyers and I hired them and signed a deal with them. And I was like, all right, let's make this happen. And that was the best decision I could have made. They earned every dime I paid them and then some, because beyond just the relief of handing it over, they definitely got me more money and I didn't ever have to be the bad guy throughout the process, which I'm very bad at saying no to people in negotiations and stuff like that. They were just like, every step of the way they were like, "No, just pass it over to us. We'll take care of it." And then they would hit me up and they're like, "Here's what's on the table, here's what we advise. What do you want to do?" And the process was stressful enough as it is, but having them sort of take the reins just alleviated so much stress. Chris Erwin:Selling your company is a very unique work stream that requires a very unique set of skills to execute well. And it can be very emotional for a founder, operator and CEO. This is your baby. You could transform your life through a big liquidity event, but it's also going to impact, you might be selling to another company and working for someone else. So having a partner there to guide you along the way is really important. I mean, I saw this a lot because I was a banker on Wall Street back in the day and sold a variety of different companies and helped shepherd the sale with Big Frame to Awesomeness TV. I just talked about that in the last podcast with Sarah Penna, one of the co-founders of Big Frame, and it's a really big decision. Chris Erwin:So I totally get it. I'm curious, who were the buyers that you were talking to? Was it different brand agencies? Was it different brands that wanted to actually just bring you on in house? Was it some of the emerging YouTube MCNs that wanted to build out their influencer sales arm? What was that group looking like? Brendan Gahan:I think it was two MCNs and this holding company, I won't name names and stuff, but it was a fascinating process. And to your point about seeing it and it being stressful and all this stuff, if you think about it, it's like, it's an experience that, as an owner or an entrepreneur you're out of your depth, it's a very unique thing that happens. It doesn't happen that often. And so bringing in professionals is so helpful because they actually do these deals. I'm doing totally different types of deals. I have no experience selling an organization. Chris Erwin:Yeah. You need to create a very compelling story and also urgency, get people excited and the feeling that they're going to miss out. So if you kind of go after the process willy nilly, you can set up a really bad result for your company. And also for your counterparties that are saying, "Hey, we're interested here. We've been in talks for a while. Why is this dragging along? Who else are you talking to?" Chris Erwin:So you can really damage, not only all the value that you've created for your business, but it can impact your team, it can impact the ability of you to continue working in the industry thereafter. So got to do it right. But so many say, I was just talking to a banker about this yesterday. Oftentimes, transactions result from long standing relationships and trust that have been built. So the end buyer for Epic Signal was your past boss at Mekanism, that became your eventual home. So after you joined forces with them, was the mandate, "Hey Brendan, come back on board. You're now part of the senior leadership team. The market opportunity is even bigger. Let's go after it with you and your whole team in a bigger way." Brendan Gahan:Pretty much, yeah. It was a bit of a plug and play option, they had... Obviously there was a social team when I left, the feeling was like there wasn't... A number of people had left by the time I came back, so I was able to bring my team in, merge it with the existing team. And we started expanding the offerings again. When I was running Epic Signal, I deliberately tried to keep it very narrow in niche, because I couldn't compete with a big social agency, it just wouldn't happen. Brendan Gahan:But by having two very key offerings, it streamlined so much of the processes and it gave me a clear point of differentiation. And when I joined back up with Mekanism, it was like full service, social, we're doing everything, community management in the lightweight, social content creation, analytics, reporting, influencer marketing, all this stuff. And so had to scale up the team and integrate with the larger organization as a whole. And it was fun. I think I'm sort of like this entrepreneur at heart or intrapreneur, and I like the process of sort of building and evolving and exploring new opportunities. So it was a really good fit, is a good fit. Chris Erwin:Thinking back on all of the brand and influencer campaigns that you've done, there's got to be one or two that stand out in terms of just something crazy went down. I think back to at Big Frame, working with some talent, doing a six figure brand deal, talent deciding literally two hours before something's supposed to go live that they're not going to post it or having a meltdown on the floor of VidCon and sobbing and crying because they're having a personal breakdown, because look, that life is tough and burnout is real in the influencer space. I remember a bunch of stories when we were launching different content verticals and flying in different 40 creators into like a creator house. This is like back in 2013, before there was like the modern creator houses of today. So any stories from the trenches that you remember from your early days? Brendan Gahan:Oh my God. Yeah, it's like, working with creators I think is one of those things, when you're in it, you're almost like, I'm never going to do this again. Then afterwards you're like, oh, that wasn't so bad. That was really fun. I think probably one that took the cake as far as stress goes, was we were working with Brisk Iced Tea, which is a PepsiCo brand. And we're about to host a summit because Brisk was relaunching, they had Eminem in the super bowl spot, and they were reviving the Claymation look. They did one with Ozzy Osborne, they did one with Danny Trejo, and we were actually having Danny Trejo fly out to New York, and he was going to meet with all these creators and stuff. And this was during the winter before super bowl. So I don't know if it was like December or January, or maybe early February, but there was a massive snowstorm. Brendan Gahan:Flights kept getting canceled and delayed. And I remember being glued to my phone, refreshing constantly, looking at, I think there were a handful of flights that were going to make it out of LA to New York before things were going to get canceled. And I remember, we signed up all these creators, Danny Trejo was going to show and he was going to be the cool, shiny object, and his flight to New York. I remember it kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed, it got canceled. We got him on another flight, delayed, delayed, delayed. And I was just like refreshing my phone and being like, this whole thing is going to fucking fall apart if that flight doesn't take off. It sounds like not that big a deal right now but I remember it was just one of those moments where I was just like, the whole thing was going to fall apart. The world was on my shoulders and I was just freaking out. But I've had a million situations like that, I remember- Chris Erwin:Did that work out? Did he get on the flight and did the campaign come together? Brendan Gahan:Oh yeah, he ended up [crosstalk 00:34:02]. Chris Erwin:He's like, I can't leave the audience hanging. Brendan Gahan:Yeah. He made it and it was freaking amazing. We thought we had him for like an hour, he was going to do a little talk, kind of talk about... His story's amazing first off. And then his spot with Brisk was super cool. And we thought people were going to get a kick out of that. I think we had like 45 minutes for him booked. He was going to come out and hang out and talk with the creators. I think it was like 20 or so creators. And we thought that was going to be this awesome experience for everyone before we sort of called it a day and then went out. And he was so cool. He came out, told this story, which is insane. And then he was like, "All right, what are we doing next, guys?" And he hung out... We had all these YouTubers there. Brendan Gahan:We had like Nice Peter and Mike Diva, and Tim DeLaGhetto, all those guys. And he made himself available to do cameos and their vlogs or any content they were making. Chris Erwin:Wow. Brendan Gahan:People would be like, "Hey, can you pretend to choke me out and beat me up for my video?" And he'd be like, "Oh sure." He just was there hanging out all day. And then we were going to take all the creators out to a dinner, take them to [inaudible 00:35:10] or one of those, where drinking and bowling and stuff. And he's like, "Oh, could I come along?" He doesn't drink. So he didn't drink. But he was hanging with the whole crew, all of us until, I don't know, like one in the morning or something. He was the nicest guy, and so it was this amazing sort of transition from like the day before, one of the most stressful experiences of my life. I don't think I slept that night to everything went off better than I could have possibly hoped for. Chris Erwin:I just want to call that out. I think that's one of the beautiful things about working with digitally native creators and being in the advertising business, is meeting all these incredible personalities. So I think Danny Trejo, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think he's LA born, Latin, very tatted up, I think had a pretty rough upbringing, but made his way into American movies and TV series. And he often plays like the bad guy or the thug and maybe those roles have been evolving, but what you see on screen- Brendan Gahan:It's pretty spot on. Chris Erwin:Yeah, what you see on screen is clearly very different than who his actual personality is, and were it not for what you're doing, Brendan, you would never have gotten to meet him, and you probably have hundreds of stories like that, that's a pretty beautiful thing. Brendan Gahan:We did one campaign with Virgin Mobile, they were sponsoring Lady Gaga's tour at the time, we got to go hang out with Lady Gaga after one of her shows like, it was wild. I bring up celebrities, but I think honestly hanging out with the creators was my favorite thing, because especially back then, there was a lot of uncertainty in terms of like, how am I going to turn this into a job? Or this is my job, but I'm just kind of scraping by. And it was an interesting mix of sort of a lot of belief in what they were doing, which I found super admirable, and I was almost envious of the fact that they took that leap as well as this sort of insecurity and doubt that they had. Brendan Gahan:There's so much pressure to keep making content and to power through, but at the same time, not knowing exactly where it was headed. You think back then, like the daily vloggers, that was a big thing in that era, those guys, we would spend all day with them doing stuff for the brand. And then when other people would go have dinner and drinks late into the night, they would have to go edit and they'd be editing until like three in the morning, running on [crosstalk 00:37:21] of sleep. Yeah. Chris Erwin:You ask what kids want to be nowadays, they want to be a creator, but whether it's a daily vlogger, or you're creating content, you're managing a fandom that is always on, and that's a lot to take on and that's why there's burnout. And I hear you, some of those early creators, they were probably just racing because they're like, hey, I have put all my resources into this, all my focus. Maybe this goes away in a couple years because the fans' interests and the passions are going to change or the algorithms are going to change and maybe this is not going to be here. So it was like a money land grab. Chris Erwin:But Brendan, when you say that you would look at creators and say, oh, I was jealous how they took the leap, maybe I want to take the leap as well. You took that leap during COVID and you started really building out your own personal audience and thought leadership. And that speaks to that you like to do things on the side. I think you have a strong entrepreneurial or intrapreneurial spirit as you described. And I don't think it just started over the past couple years. I think when we were talking in advance of this interview, you were investing back in the day as well. And I think that you were an early investor in Big Frame, is that right? Brendan Gahan:So I did invest in Big Frame, but via Mekanism because I knew Sarah from back in the day when she was working for Phil DeFranco. And so when she was starting it, I was like, oh my gosh, can we get in? So yeah, we made this small investment and I just sort of wanted to be a part of all that. I definitely had like a serious case of FOMO. Chris Erwin:Yeah. I think that was really cool. I think Sarah and Steve, we actually had a bunch of different creators and I think peer business partners in our cap table, a way of giving them ownership as a thank you, helping us build this together. And so when we sold, all those creators that were in our cap table got some money. Was it life changing money? No, but it was something. And I think they really represented a pretty special ethos from the top. Brendan Gahan:That's awesome. That's so cool. Chris Erwin:But yeah, and you are also early on and I think you still are, you're an advisor to the VidCon board, is that right? Brendan Gahan:Yeah. So I sit on the advisory board for the industry track specifically. So I mean, I've been to all the US VidCons, a bunch of the international ones. So I was always deep in that space. And I've known Jim since the Revision3 days, he was, Jim Louderback the CEO was the CEO of Revision3, which was one of the big early MCNs. And I'm not sure exactly to be honest how that came about other than... But I think what prompted it was as part of the acquisition of Viacom for VidCon, Jim came on board and I think it was a way to make sure that, I think he put together a few advisory boards to make sure that he was getting a lot of input from multiple points, because for so long the community was relatively insular, and its expanded so much so quickly. Chris Erwin:I first met you, I think via an introduction from Chas, Chas Lacaillade who I think was an early interview on this podcast. You guys overlapped at full screen back in 2013 and then have both built your own businesses after that, pretty funny track. And first met you in New York. And I remember a conversation a year and a half ago or a couple years ago, I was asking, what are you focused on? What are you doing? You're a dabbler in so many things, you're at Mekanism, but I'm seeing that you're doing all this incredible thought leadership on LinkedIn, all these incredible posts and you're really consistent about it. Chris Erwin:They were really high quality. And you said, "Hey Chris, I'm really focused on building an audience. And I think audience in the modern creator economy is one of the most valuable currencies that you can have." And you weren't completely clear what you wanted to do with that audience, but you're like, I'm going to build and now's a great time to do it. So I am curious to hear that story of how that came to be and what you're working on today. Brendan Gahan:You probably said that so much more articulate than I did. I'm going to have to remember that, but yeah. That was definitely the insight. I think the way it came about was sort of like, I was legitimately beating myself up over the fact that I had probably hundreds of pages of writing and thoughts in Google Drive that I'd never published as a blog post. And I would just like constantly beat myself up over this. I'd have what I thought was a great idea. I'd work on a blog post and then it would just sort of get longer and longer and longer and longer. And then eventually it became this daunting task to like push it out, because I had a blog for a while and I would sort of fall into this pattern and then not publish for like a long, long time. Brendan Gahan:And the thing I sort of found was the hardest part was to press publish really. And so I was like, okay, well what's the easiest way I can get myself to kind of overcome that, because I did want an audience. I felt like I had thoughts that I wanted to get out of my own head. And so basically I was like, all right, what is sort of the easiest way to do this and inoculate myself to this idea that this fear of pressing publish. And so I started small and basically I was like, all right, well, I'm going to start posting one thing a day on LinkedIn. It doesn't matter if it's simply sharing an article, just writing cool or writing a whole blog post if I feel like it. And that made it very approachable. Brendan Gahan:In the early days, I would literally just sit there and press a timer, 20 minutes and write. When it was done, I'd give it a once over and then press publish. And that really helped me sort of start to overcome this fear, and did that for all of, what was that 2020 I believe. And then at some point towards the end of 2020, I was like... We'd already done multiple TikTok campaigns and I'd seen the power of TikTok, and like early days, you can still get in there and you can have an impact. Brendan Gahan:It's a softer landing than it will be later. So after seeing all the successful campaigns, I was encouraging my fiance to get on there and do it. And then every time she would post something, it would blow up. Because she had a decent sized YouTube channel and Instagram but it wasn't massive. And I was like, just get on TikTok, trust me. So I found myself sort of giving this advice to everyone, but not taking it myself. And I was like, all right, I should just... These opportunities they only come by every few years if you're lucky, and I was like, I need to just take my own advice. And so in the same way I had to get over writing and sharing my thoughts, I had to get over that with TikTok. Chris Erwin:Yeah, putting yourself on video, that's a big difference than writing and text base expression on LinkedIn. Brendan Gahan:It was so hard. It was so hard. She used to laugh at me because I would put the camera on me and then I would just try and say something, and I would be like, "Fuck, fuck," and then try and say a word and I'd stutter. And I would sit there for like 20 minutes trying to spit out two sentences. Chris Erwin:Brendan, I got to say, I feel you on that because Kevin Gould at Kombo Ventures, he would do these job rec videos on LinkedIn where he'd just be like, call it one or two minutes. "Hey, we're Kombo Ventures, I'm Kevin, we're looking to hire someone, this is what we're doing. And here's who we're looking for." I record these and this is like an inner tip on me. I'll record that like 15 times, it's a one minute video, but I'll say no, I skipped up, I said something I didn't want to say. I don't like how I look. I don't like the lighting, and people think like, oh yeah, you just put it up and that'll be like my one thing I need to get done in the morning, and it'll take me 15 tries to do it. Then you just go to think about, okay, if you're a professional creator doing that for a living, I really feel it then, it's a pretty good glimpse into it. Brendan Gahan:100%. And I think one thing I saw Roberto Blake, maybe, I think I saw a video or saw him tweet, you've got to make 100 bad videos to get to your first good one, or maybe it was Mr. Beast. And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very true. And that sort of made me embrace the fact that the first ones are going to be awful, and I tried to not focus on like each one, but more building the habit because that would, I don't know how else to say it, but sort of inoculate yourself to that feeling of just sheer fear and anxiety of getting in front of the camera. Chris Erwin:On the outside looking in, I look at, we're a big content marketing machine at RockWater to drive awareness and legitimacy for the services that we do as the self-described McKinsey of the creator economy, right? Market research, strategy advisory, capital raising, and all of that. We look at what you're doing, Brendan, from your LinkedIn posts to your blog, to now almost I think over 100,000 followers on TikTok. It's very, very impressive. A lot of people in the industry say the same thing, right? Like, oh, do you see Brendan's path and what he's posting? It's incredible. I look at the TikTok videos. They're very well edited. Are you doing that yourself? Do you have a team helping you? Brendan Gahan:I'm not editing them myself anymore. I was up until late last year. So I hired an editor out of the Philippines actually who works full time on my TikTok. Then he does design for my blog posts and a bunch of different things basically, he helps me out with a bunch of stuff and that's been a huge relief because now I feel like I'm trying to transition to... There's almost sort of like, as a creator and this is something I observe, but I'm having trouble implementing it, sort of like people find you because of your topic is interesting or maybe you've got a helpful bit of information, but then they stick around and embrace you because of kind of the personality piece. Brendan Gahan:And I'm really trying to sort of evolve it into creating something that provides more insight into me at the same time. And hopefully people feel like there's a connection to me rather than like, "Hey, here are just some interesting stats or an interesting strategy." So that's sort of like where my head is at in terms of where I want to take it. I haven't quite figured out how I'm going to do that. But I think similar to just the same way I got started before, I'm just trying to throw things out there and see what sticks. Chris Erwin:Loudly from the RockWater team, keep doing what you're doing. We love it. Brendan Gahan:Oh, thanks. I appreciate that. Chris Erwin:Yeah. A closing theme before we get into some rapid fire questions and close out the interview. What's next for Brendan and Mekanism? And maybe that's a theme of talking about, what do you think is most exciting in the creator economy and how do you want to support it? You've been writing about Web 3 and X to earn models. Is that something that you're thinking a lot about lately? Brendan Gahan:In terms of Mekanism, I really enjoy that. And so long as I get to work with great brands and great people and do great work I'm content. In terms of the creator economy and stuff, I love everything that's happening there. And I do a little bit of investing and advising, and I love nothing more than sort of brainstorming with people who are building, it's so exciting. And I think the aspect of the creator economy that I'm really fascinated by is sort of... Rather than, most of the VCs coming in are like, oh, we're going to build this scalable product for creators. And that's interesting, but I think the thing that's more interesting is sort of the creators building their own brands, and I think right now production and productization, that's sort of the commodity piece. The development of a brand and cultivation of an audience is becoming the differentiator and the most valuable asset. Brendan Gahan:We were talking about that at the beginning, an audience is leverage. And so as we see sort of this transition from like Web 2 to Web 3, where everybody sort of breaks it down, Web 1 was read, Web 2 is read, write, Web 3 is read, write, own. If the creators of platforms and communities within Web 3 are the users and owners, it makes sense that they would be less likely to embrace traditional methods of advertising. There are some stats out there, like 96% of people hate ads. Yeah, nobody likes most advertising. There are great ads, but by and large people don't want advertising. So those who are sort of able to understand how to embrace communities and build communities, they're going to have a leg up as we sort of transition to Web 3. And we're already seeing the ripple effects of this. Brendan Gahan:I mean like iOS 14 impacted the ability to advertise, do targeted advertising. Creators are launching big brands now faster than ever, partnering with creators is the easiest way to have an impact because they've maintained that direct line of communication to their audience. And so I think creators building and owning brands is really exciting. And also, people are like, oh, like creators think it's in this nascent state. And yes, in the grand scheme of things, it is. But there are already multi billion dollar creator brands. It's so funny, I mean, you probably know him, but Richard Ryan, he was a YouTuber back in the day. I used to do a ton of work with him. He and this other YouTuber, Matt Best, they partnered with some other guys a few years back. They were the guys that launched Black Rifle Coffee, which I didn't realize how big that brand was until they IPOed, and like- Chris Erwin:Yeah, they just went public, right? Brendan Gahan:They went public. I actually was in Austin two weeks ago, I hung out with Richard. It was so wild. It's like, that was built, the platform for that initially was YouTubers. So it's really fascinating. And we're seeing all these other great brands, Logan Paul and KSI, their Gatorade competitor, et cetera. I think that aspect of the business, it just shows how powerful these creators are, which I think is really, really exciting. Chris Erwin:The Black Rifle Coffee, we were doing some research into that company a year ago to understand how some of these creator led brands and particularly CPG brands are incubated and looking at their story, and look, I don't want to undersell what they have done, but I think the quality of their coffee is good, but that's not their specialty. It's that they have these personalities behind it. And this ethos founded by former members of the military, pride in country. And they've built an incredible business doing that. And they've gotten a lot of other ambassadors that have helped them build their business along the way. And I think, yeah, it was funny, Chas was telling me about this. I guess you guys maybe hung out with Richard together. I would love to interview Richard on the podcast. So if he's listening, I'm going to be reaching out soon. Brendan Gahan:Richard's a really, really good dude. Chris Erwin:All right. So Brendan, we're going to enter the last segment of this interview. We're going to do a rapid fire, six questions, and the rules are as follows. With these questions, looking for short answers. So one sentence, or maybe even just one to two words, do you understand the rules? Brendan Gahan:Yes. Chris Erwin:Let's get into it. Proudest life moment? Brendan Gahan:Still ahead of me. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do less of in 2022? Brendan Gahan:Emails and late night work sessions. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do more of? Brendan Gahan:IRL time with friends and family. Chris Erwin:Okay. Maybe more time in Bitcoin Beach, down in El Salvador. Brendan Gahan:Yeah. Serious. Chris Erwin:What one to two things drive your success? Brendan Gahan:I'll keep this one short, crippling insecurity. Chris Erwin:Okay. I dig it. Advice for media execs going into 2022? Brendan Gahan:Get your hands dirty. Chris Erwin:Any future startup ambitions? Brendan Gahan:TBD. Chris Erwin:To elaborate on that, that could be some intrapreneurship at Mekanism or other things you're doing on the sides. I think my prediction is, this audience that you're building particularly on TikTok, I think something's going to come out of that in a pretty unique way. Brendan Gahan:So long as I can think and strategize, I'm very content. Chris Erwin:Here's the last one, Brendan, pretty easy. How can people get in contact with you? Brendan Gahan:Just Google my name, Brendan, B-R-E-N-D-A-N, Gahan, G-A-H-A-N. I'm on all the socials. So whatever your platform of choice is, you'll be able to find me. Chris Erwin:Yeah. And his website is great, lots of content there. Brendangahan.com. All right, cool. Brendan, thanks for being on the show. This was a delight. Brendan Gahan:Thank you. This was a lot of fun. I really appreciate you having me on and I love all the content you guys put out, so I'm really stoked to have made the cut and be on this. Chris Erwin:Very welcome, an easy decision. Chris Erwin:Wow. That was a super fun interview. And I really learned a lot. I think that Brendan and I are kindred spirits in a couple ways. One, our mutual love for surfing in Southern California, and two, just the vulnerabilities of putting yourself out there as a content creator. So that was really fun. Quick note, we just hosted our first executive event of 2022 just this past Thursday in LA. We did a media and commerce executive dinner at Chilena. It was awesome. We had an incredible array of guests. I think over 50 people came out and I also hosted a panel about the future of livestream commerce. So we had the head of operations of Popshop Live there, and the founder and CEO of both Verb, which is the parent company of Market.live and also StageTEN, just an awesome chat. It was a lot of fun, really great energy, and we're pumped to do more. Chris Erwin:So I think we're planning a dinner for investors in media and commerce coming up in the fall in New York City. And then also, we want to put another one together for sports media. So if you'd like to get involved as a sponsor, as a guest, or you want to be on a panel that I will moderate, reach out, you can hit us up at hello@wearerockwater.com. And then as always for all you listeners out there of our podcasts, we love to hear from you. If you have any ideas for guests or any feedback on the show, just shoot us a note, TCUpod@wearerockwater.com. All right, that's it everybody. Thanks for listening. Chris Erwin:The Come Up is written and hosted by me, Chris Erwin, and is a production of RockWater Industries. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and remember to subscribe wherever you listen to our show. And if you really dig us, feel free to forward The Come Up to a friend. You can sign up for our company newsletter at wearerockwater.com/newsletter, and you could follow us on Twitter @TCUpod. The Come Up is engineered by Daniel Tureck, music is by Devon Bryant, logo and branding is by Kevin Zazzali, and special thanks to Alex Zirin and Eric Kenigsberg from the RockWater team. 

This interview features Sarah Penna, Senior Manager of Creator Launch at Patreon. We discuss how a trip to India inspired her media career, being one of the youngest YouTube MCN founders,  her $15 million exit to DreamWorks Animation, how she picks co-founders,  marrying a YouTuber-turned Hollywood filmmaker, founding a female-forward entertainment brand, and what's up next for Patreon. Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com---EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Sarah Penna:We had outgrown the office. We were in the National Lampoon office. It was so janky and eventually we moved the talent team to my dining room table. I would cook dinner for the talent team. We would take talent meetings in my living room, which was just so bizarre and unprofessional but worked. My house was kind of a YouTuber hotel. It was very wholesome and very duct tape and bubble gum feeling. We were just kind of figuring it out. Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Sarah Penna, senior manager of Creator Launch at Patreon. So, Sarah was born in Salt Lake City, Utah. Her father was a serial entrepreneur and her mother ran the family construction business. Sarah's first foray into media began while studying abroad in India, when she became the translator for a documentary film crew. So after college, she moved to California and immersed herself in LA's up-and-coming digital media scene, which included working with OG YouTuber Phil DeFranco. Sarah rapidly became a digital expert and started her own digital talent management company in 2010, which eventually became Big Frame and was sold to AwesomenessTV and its parent, DreamWorks Animation. Chris Erwin:Today, Sarah runs a team that helps Patreon develop and launch premium talent partnerships, and also advises Frolic Media, a female-forward entertainment brand she co-founded in 2018. Some highlights of our chat include how we first met during an awkward interview moment with a guitar, when having 10,000 subs made you a Top 100 YouTuber, how she picks co-founders, what it's like to marry a YouTuber turned Hollywood filmmaker, and what's up next for Patreon. Now, I've known Sarah for nearly 10 years. She was actually my gateway drug into all things digital entertainment and where it not for her founding Big Frame, I would not be where I am today, and I am forever grateful to her, which makes me super pumped to share her story. All right, let's get to it. Sarah, thank you for being on The Come Up podcast. Sarah Penna:Thanks for having me. Chris Erwin:We got a little bit of history here. So, we'll see how much of that we can get through in 90 minutes before your next thing. Sarah Penna:Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot to pack in. Chris Erwin:As always, let's rewind a bit and let's talk about where you grew up. So, my understanding is that you grew up in Salt Lake City, Utah. Your family had some land in Wyoming. I think your dad was a bit of an entrepreneur, but tell us about your upbringing. Sarah Penna:Yeah. I had a pretty cool childhood. I grew up in Utah. My parents were total hippies, just big personalities, did not grow up in the predominant faith of Utah. So, it was a little bit of an outlier, and my parents own a construction company together. So, a little bit of foreshadowing into how I worked with my husband at one point, but I grew up with an older sister and a younger brother. We had a menagerie of animals all the time, like goats, and my dad kept bees at one point. We always had two or three dogs and a bunch of cats and an iguana and chinchillas. We just had this kind of crazy Bohemian, bizarre, Jewish, hippie not Mormon family. Sarah Penna:So, my parents owned this construction company and became relatively successful with that but my dad has curse, as I do, which is, always coming up with new ideas and deciding to act upon them. He had a Japanese restaurant and he had a furniture company and he had an emergency preparedness kit company, and I- Chris Erwin:Would he do all of these at the same time as the construction business or would it be like stops and starts and all of that? Sarah Penna:No. My mom held it down. She really was the mastermind behind the construction company. She did all of the office work and made sure ... she really ran the company and then my dad was kind of the face of it. He was out at the job sites and in the early days, was actually doing the building. So, I got to see my mom be in this, talk about a male-dominated industry. She would come home so mad because she would get a piece of mail that ... her name's Paula and they would always address Paul, because they couldn't believe that a woman was running a construction company. So, I got to see this powerful woman running this super successful business in basically a hundred percent male-dominated industry. Chris Erwin:Sarah, I've known you for over 10 years and we worked together intimately for at least three or four of them. I had no idea about your background. I just learned more about you in two minutes. It took a podcast and a 10-year relationship to get here. Sarah Penna:That's totally my bad. Chris Erwin:All good. So, okay. As a kid, when your father dabbled in all these new business adventures, was that really exciting for you guys? Maybe frustrating for your mother, but as kids you're like, "Oh, dad's up to some cool stuff again." Sarah Penna:Yeah, it was fun. I was 15 when he did the Japanese restaurant and I got to work in the restaurant and just, it was cool, and I didn't realize the stress and the financial burden that it was putting on my mom and kind of how frustrating it was for her but I see that now, looking back, and she handled it amazingly. She's an incredible woman. But I'm a very early riser, and as a kid, I would ... my dad is, too. He would get up at four or five in the morning and I would, too. He would just load me up in his construction truck and we'd go get pancakes and go milk the goats and go check on his construction sites. So, I got to see the inner workings of that. Then, I love going to the office and rifling through my mom's office supplies. Chris Erwin:Well, I got some important Post-it notes here, got a yellow legal pad, all the things. Sarah Penna:It was so fun as a kid. You're like, pens and Post-it notes, and the office supply closet was just like this heaven. Chris Erwin:My dad, he ran a psychology business and still does for 40 years and had his own office, and then every year he hosted a conference. One of my favorite things is that he would hire his children, me and my twin brother, and we'd have to lick 500 envelopes and put stamps on them. But we got to use all of these office gear, we thought it was the coolest thing ever. Then, after a few years, we're like, "I think we're getting sick from all of this stamp-licking." Sarah Penna:Yeah, probably. Chris Erwin:But separate story. Sarah Penna:That's really funny. Chris Erwin:So, a question, watching your father's entrepreneurial endeavors and also your mother, too, running the business, did you feel like, "Hey, when I grew up, I'm going to have my own business too." Sarah Penna:Honestly, no. So, I was an incredibly shy child. I was very quiet. My family likes to joke that they thought I was just going to buy a cabin in the woods and just frolic in daisy fields and that would basically be all I could handle. So, to the shock of everybody, of what I wound up doing with my career, so no, I was very directionless. I went to a very intense high school that was a college prep school. There was a lot of pressure to kind of figure out what you wanted to do. Frankly, I just didn't have any passions. I wasn't thinking, "Oh, I want to take over the family business or I want to be an entrepreneur." I didn't even have that language. Sarah Penna:So, in a way, that was great because what I wound up doing didn't exist when I was little. If I had said, "Oh, I want to be a lawyer or an actress or what ... " something that did exist, I don't know that I would've found the path that I did find. My parents never called themselves entrepreneurs. They were just, this is what we do and this is how we do it. Chris Erwin:Very interesting, Sarah. So, I'm going to put the puzzle pieces together here. Let's talk about another formative event growing up. You had also mentioned that you studied abroad in India, where you actually learned to speak fluent Nepalese. So, tell us about this transformative moment for you. Sarah Penna:Like I said, I was a very shy child. In college, I kind of blossomed, but maybe in the wrong ways. I partied a lot and just, again, was quite directionless. I was a literature major, which is just like the lazy ... No, I love being a literature major, but it is a non-major. It doesn't really set you up for business success. Originally, actually, I was going to travel. I was going to study abroad in Italy and I had this moment where I just looked at myself and said, "You need to push yourself right now. This is a moment." My college had an incredible study abroad program in Nepal. Sarah Penna:Long story short, they couldn't do it in Nepal. There were some civil unrest, so they moved it to India. I went to India and I lived in a place that didn't have running water, and I did my laundry for six months in a river. I got perspective that I never would've had. During that time I met up with a documentary film, I will say, crew in quotes, because it was just two white dudes traveling around not knowing what they were doing. They were in this tiny little village that I was staying. I was living in a monastery and because I spoke the language I could just hang out with the locals. It was very funny to them that this tiny, little white girl spoke fluent Nepalese. Chris Erwin:Did you take Nepalese in advance of going to India at all? Sarah Penna:No. Chris Erwin:So, you just picked it up in country. Sarah Penna:Yeah. Chris Erwin:Wow. Sarah Penna:Writing is very hard, but the language itself is very intuitive once you fit the pieces together. So, I would help them. Tourists would come. I lived in this monastery for a couple of weeks. Tourists would come and I would help them translate and negotiate and all this stuff. So, these guys came, they were filming. I was like, "I'll join up with you guys and translate for you and help you get interviews and that kind of stuff." Because if you speak the language, it just opens more doors. So, I wound up traveling with them, and one of them I wound up dating, but that's for another story. He was going to UCLA. I was graduating. He was going to UCLA grad school. Sarah Penna:I was graduating college and I wound up learning about documentary film and originally thought I wanted to go into documentary filmmaking. So, 2006 is when I was in India. Chris Erwin:Got it. Did you have an interest in media and the arts before you met this documentary film crew/attractive young man that you wanted to date? Sarah Penna:No, and I didn't have any connections and I didn't have any ... but, again, I was kind of, not in a disparaging way, but I was kind of an empty vessel, right? I had no idea what I was going to do and this thing really sparked me. I loved holding the camera. I loved seeing the story come together. I moved to Venice with him, and this is way too long of a story, so I'll just make it really short through a series of very wonderful coincidences, which involved me randomly picking a documentary film at the LA Film Festival and contacting the filmmaker. I got an internship at World of Wonder and that kind of started my trajectory in media. Chris Erwin:This was the first time you dated a documentary filmmaker. I look at this as a warm up for Joe. We'll get into that later. Sarah Penna:I only dated creative people, [inaudible 00:11:39]. Chris Erwin:Another podcast for your wild party days at Pitzer College. All right, so that led to your first work experience at World of Wonder. So, tell us about what that company was doing and what your role was there. Sarah Penna:World of Wonder in 2008 was probably the most amazing place to work, I have to say. It was constantly drag queens coming in the office, and parties. It was just a wild time. They were filming the first season of Million Dollar Listing, which I was an intern on. They were filming the first season of Tori and Dean: Inn Love, the Tori Spelling Show, which I was an assistant on. They were filming Porno Valley. They were filming ... I mean, it was just like a wild, wild time, incredible company. I loved it. I also recognized that reality TV wasn't really for me. While I was working there, I also was making short films and uploading them to these two new websites. One of them was called YouTube and one of them was called Current TV. Sarah Penna:Current TV was Al Gore's network based in San Francisco, where you would upload short documentaries and then the ones that got the most votes, they would ultimately put them onto their TV network. So, I had a couple documentaries get bought and put onto the TV network and ... Chris Erwin:Were you doing this independently or as part of World of Wonder? Sarah Penna:No, no, totally separately. Chris Erwin:Got it. Again, I had no idea that you did this. Sarah Penna:Yeah. Now, we're in 2007, the first documentary that got picked up was about me getting my medical marijuana license. Chris Erwin:Okay. Sarah Penna:It was a very new thing at that time, and so I documented the whole journey of what it was like to get a medical marijuana license and I smoked a joint on-screen. When I got hired there, it would play in the rotation, and one time Al Gore came to visit the office and they had the TVs up in the office playing Current, and my documentary came on with me smoking a joint and meeting Al Gore at the same time. It was very embarrassing. Chris Erwin:I'm famous/I'm super embarrassed. What a mix of emotions. Sarah Penna:Yes. Chris Erwin:So, Sarah, I have to ask, you're working at World of Wonder, you're working on these incredible programs that are probably being sold to network TV, right? Not digital outlets and streamers. What was the catalyst that you're like, "I want to put my content on YouTube and Current TV." How'd that come to be? Sarah Penna:I just felt something more compelling about it. It felt more free. It felt like, somebody like me coming from Utah with literally zero connections could make something and have it be put on TV within a couple of weeks. Then, on YouTube, you couldn't monetize at the time. It was very rudimentary. I don't know, I just fell in love with it. Chris Erwin:YouTube was founded in 2004 and then, was it bought by Google in 2006, if I remember correctly? Sarah Penna:I think that's right. Then, 2007 Time magazine made you, the cover and the Person of the Year was you, and it was a mirror. I was like, that to me was a moment where I said, "Okay, this is really a thing and I want to be involved in it." Chris Erwin:I think you start meeting some pretty important early personalities and movers and shakers within digital video. I think you met one of the founders of what eventually became Maker Studios, I think. Was it Danny Diamond or Danny Zappin? Is that the same person? Sarah Penna:That's the same person. His YouTube name was Danny Diamond. Chris Erwin:Got it. So, how'd you meet Danny? Sarah Penna:So, I was working at this very small web series production company which, yes, that was a thing in 2008. So, I got laid off right from Current because the financial crisis hit. They laid everyone off. They sold the network to Al Jazeera. I moved back to LA. I had been up in San Francisco, moved back to LA, started working at this web series production company, got introduced to Danny through some mutual friends. He said, "Look, I just got some money from YouTube and I'm filming this thing for this new channel that we're starting called The Station. Why don't you just come up and see what it's like?" So, I go up there and unbeknownst to me, it was every big YouTuber at the time. It was ShayCarl, and KassemG, and Shane Dawson, and Danny, and Lisa Nova, and everybody- Chris Erwin:OG names. Sarah Penna:Funnily enough, my future husband was supposed to be there, but I don't remember exactly what happened, but he wasn't there. Chris Erwin:Okay. So, you're doing this. Are you thinking to yourself, "Oh my God, I'm having so much fun. This is a crazy world." You're embarking on a very exciting career adventure. You're seeing this change in the media industry. Did you feel that at the time or was it more of, "This is fun. I'm meeting some cool people. Let's see where it goes." Sarah Penna:It was more the former. I really thought to myself, I want to be involved in this in some way, shape or form. I really don't know what this is. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Sarah Penna:Not to say that I'm a genius, but I just had something in my gut that said, you've got to be involved in this somehow. You have to make this happen. Chris Erwin:That instinct proved to be pretty powerful for you in starting Big Frame, which we'll get to in a little bit. So, you meet Phil DeFranco, a prominent OG YouTuber, and I think you become a producer for him and his team, right? Sarah Penna:Yeah. So, he hires me in November of 2009 and I worked for him. We launched a new channel, which was like a gaming channel for him. I did PR for him. I handled brand deals for him. I edited because I still knew how to edit at the time. A skill I'm very sad that I lost. That was just an amazing experience. He had split from Maker TV at that time and so, we were kind of running our own thing. I think Phil, to this day, is one of the most brilliant, genius content creators that's come out of the YouTube space. He's just continually reinvented himself and not, just kept doing what he did and stayed successful. So, that was a masterclass in how to run a successful YouTube channel. Chris Erwin:Got it. Also, through Phil DeFranco, you actually end up meeting your future husband, Joe. So, he actually showed up on time for production or maybe a first day that you guys had. How'd you first connect with him? Sarah Penna:Before Phil hired me, I got invited to a Halloween party at his house and Joe was there, and I had actually very embarrassingly seen Joe's videos before meeting him. I was producing a short film with a prominent YouTuber at that time named Olga Kay and we were just doing some fun. We actually crowdfunded it. We raised a couple thousand dollars and made this thing called Olga Kay's Circus. We wanted Joe in it because he had a lot of subscribers at the time. He had 10,000 subscribers, so he was in the Top 100 YouTubers. Chris Erwin:Oh, my God. Sarah Penna:Can you believe that 10,000 subscribers would get you there at that time? So, we wanted Joe in it and we wound up meeting at this Halloween party and then Phil connected us and match made us a little bit, and we went on our first date in January of 2010. Chris Erwin:Then, how soon were you married or engaged after that? Sarah Penna:So, we went on our first date in January 2010 and then we got engaged in September of the same year, and then we were married the next year. Chris Erwin:First date with Joe, January 2010. Engaged, September 2010. Married, 2011. Interesting timing because you launched your first company, Cloud Media, I think in 2010, and you're sharing production space with Joe. So, you're tripling down on the digital media space. You're literally married to a creator. You're sharing space together and you're founding your own media company. But tell us about what was the origins of Cloud Media. Sarah Penna:Yeah, so I basically, again, I didn't say, "Oh, I'm going to be an entrepreneur. I'm going to raise money." I didn't have a blueprint for that. I didn't know what I was doing, which I think you'll hear a lot of entrepreneurs say, that's kind of a blessing in a lot of ways. So, I did a very big brand deal for Joe. I was able to negotiate a high six-figure deal for him, and using the percentage that I took as his manager from that, I started what I called the Cloud Media. I bootstrapped that company for a year and a half and just operated it based off of the percentages that I was taking from brand deals that I was doing for influencers and YouTubers, whatever we called them at the time. Sarah Penna:My difference was I would start out by not doing contracts with them. We would just have a understanding, which is very common with management companies. Most managers don't have contracts, right? That's more for agents and Maker and Fullscreen at the time were insisting on contract, and Machinima. I was like, "Hey, you don't have to sign a contract with me. Let me just show you what I can do. This is my fee, and if you like it, then you can officially sign onboard and we can go from there." So, that worked really well for me. So, I started signing. I think by the time that we re-founded the company as Big Frame, I had about 30 clients. Chris Erwin:I remember, that was one of the things that attracted me to Big Frame. This is definitely the reputation in the space, is that you had built, Sarah, one of the most premium networks of YouTube creators that existed. Really high quality YouTubers that worked together, that worked with you, and there was really good camaraderie and trust and rapport amongst everybody, and it felt very special and different. So, it's clear that was based on these initial values of, I'm going to do good work and prove myself to you, and that's how we're going to develop a business relationship. Until I came in and then I was like, "Sarah, we need contracts." Sarah Penna:A big influence on those ... those are, me as a person, my core values. But DeStorm, who was my second client outside of Joe, who I just cold called and was living in New York, he really sort of guided me in how he wanted to be treated, how he felt business should be done. He really helped collaborate with me on some of those foundational core values that we carried throughout the duration of Big Frame really. Chris Erwin:So, speaking of that, you're literally learning from one of your clients. Were there any other mentors in the space as you're figuring ... this is the early days. We still say we're in the Wild West of the creator economy, that was the real Wild West of YouTube. So, probably, very few people to learn from. Did you have anyone that you would call on a regular basis and say, "Hey, let's just share notes." Sarah Penna:No, I didn't. Unfortunately, I think the space became quickly competitive. I would say at the beginning there was a little more collaboration between, let's say, like Danny and George Strompolos and myself. We would go up to YouTube and talk to them together as a group and what our needs were and share creator feedback. I think once money started pouring into the space we got a little more siloed, which is understandable, but no, I didn't. I was really out there in the woods like, "Okay, this is what we're doing now." Not really knowing what that was. Just saying, "Okay, this is how we're doing it. This is how our contracts are going to look." Chris Erwin:How old were you at this point? Sarah Penna:I was 26. Chris Erwin:So young. So, then, I think, well, as part of that dynamic, as the space got more competitive, George is launching Fullscreen, Danny is launching Maker, more venture capitals moving to the space. The Google Original Channels program launches, $200 million dedicated fund to help creators produce higher quality content for YouTube, which will then attract more advertisers and more revenue. So, I think at this point is when you eventually connect with Steve Raymond, the co-founder of Big Frame, which got its origins from Cloud Media, right? Sarah Penna:Exactly, through a mutual friend. I was on the hunt for a CEO. I recognized my limitations. I did want to raise money. I didn't know what that entailed. Frankly, I needed more of a grownup. I think my skillsets were really great on the creator side and the brand deal side but as the industry started growing up, I very quickly recognized I need someone who has a skillset that I just don't have. So, I met Steve and we hit it off, and we had a couple meetings, and he just jumped right on in. We decided to re-found the company. None of us liked the name because people thought it was like cloud computing and, which is fair, and it just made sense to start fresh. It also gave us an opportunity to have contracts with people and just structure it in a way that would allow us to raise money. So, yeah. Chris Erwin:Hey, listeners, this is Chris Erwin, your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work and it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it, everybody. Let's get back to the interview. I have to ask, I started the advisory firm five years ago that I have now. I started that with a co-founder and then quickly realized, "Hey, I have a certain vision and I'm going to build this in my unique way." So, restarted the advisory firm with me as the solo owner. Chris Erwin:I've realized bringing someone else into the mix that really gets the vision that I feel comfortable sharing this with is difficult for me. I just know my personality, and founder issues are always like the hardest things in any startup. How did you feel in terms of bringing Steve on? Did you feel comfortable? When you met him, you're like, "Hey, this guy gets it. We have shared values and sensibility." Were you able to develop a sense of trust with him pretty quickly or did that take a decent amount of time? Sarah Penna:I trusted him very quickly. Although, I sometimes felt like that scene in The Little Mermaid where she's like, closes her eyes and signs her voice away, I was like, "Am I doing that?" I definitely had that moment where I was like, "Am I letting somebody in I don't ... ?" We had three meetings before. I was like, "Here's a third of my company." We had another co-founder, that's it. We don't need to [inaudible 00:25:56] but basically, here's half of my company. I definitely had people who were like, "Don't think you should have done that." But to me, the value of Steve and the ability ... I did trust him. The main thing for him was, he was very clear that he didn't want to disrupt what I was doing. He was very impressed with the business that I had built on my own and he didn't want me to feel like he was coming in to change that. Sarah Penna:He invested some of his own money and valued the contracts that ... I was like, I don't have that money to invest, but he was like, we should value the money that's in the bank for Cloud Media and the value of the contracts or the agreements that you have with the talent. So, I was like, "Okay, that's really fair." He made it easy. That, for me, was important. I don't like complicated things. I don't like long dragged out negotiations, and I was ready to just get to work. So, he was someone who was like, "I know how to do this. I have the connections. I don't want to disrupt your work." He's a good guy, I could just tell, and we made it work. Chris Erwin:I love that. I know Steve very well. He was my boss for three or four years and learned an incredible amount from him. But I think you're right, Sarah, the thing that stands out about Steve was just a good guy, good moral compass, and he doesn't let great get in the way of good enough. He'll just say, "This is good. This is thoughtful. We've talked this through. Let's move forward." But like you said, he's very fair in how he wanted to value the company. I didn't know that, but it's totally on brand for him. So, curious, I joined in the summer of 2012, I was ... Sarah Penna:Oh, boy, what a summer that was. Chris Erwin:So, I went to business school after being a Wall Street banker for a few years. Then, I was in school in Chicago and I worked while I was there for Pritzker Capital, which was an early investor in the YouTube MCN ecosystem. They had invested in Big Frame. They invested in Awesomeness. We eventually joined forces, and that is how I met Steve first. I was talking to Rishi, Rishi or Matt McCall and they're like, "Yeah, when you fly out to LA for these meetings, we invested in this company called Big Frame. You should check them out." I was like, "I don't even understand this company's business model, but digital video that feels like the future. I'll take a meeting." Chris Erwin:I remember meeting Steve and we had lunch on the Promenade, and then I came in for my first interview. I walked into the office, this is on Sunset Boulevard in the old National Lampoon building. I walked in and I walked into a ... it feels like we were just working out of someone's semi-living/work space. I was like, is this a company? Is this like what West Coast work is like? Because I had grown up working on the East Coast. I walked into the back room and in the back room there's this little circular table. Steve's there. Grant Gibson's there. Jason [Szymanski 00:28:39] is there. Then, you're at your back desk. Chris Erwin:So, you're supposed to be part of this interview, your head's down on your computer. They're like, "Oh, that's Sarah over there." I looked over and I'm like, "Oh, I guess this is what founders do in digital media. They're just heads down in their computers. Maybe I'll eventually talk to her over time." That was my first introduction to Big Frame. So, I just say all of this as I was like, this is like a precursor to just wildness that ensued thereafter. We had just gotten the Google Original Channels funding, raised some venture funding on top of that, and then it was like, build these five different content verticals. I'm curious to hear from you, there are so many memories from back in the day, but as you think about some of the war stories from the trenches, what are some things that stand out? Sarah Penna:Oh, my God. Well, your interview definitely. Also, you failed to mention that we had two absolutely crazy wiener dogs running around the office as well. Yeah. I think we had outgrown the office. We were in the National Lampoon office. It was so janky and we ... eventually, we're on three different floors. We moved sales to an office down Sunset. We were sandwiched between a strip club and a Trader Joe's. Then, Joe and I were renting a house off of Sunset, like walking distance, and eventually, we moved the talent team to my dining room table. Joe at that time was putting two YouTube videos a week out on his MysteryGuitarMan channel, and he would stay up all night and then he would sleep until 2:00 PM and he'd come downstairs. Sarah Penna:It was like, Lisa, Byron, Megan, Rachel were at our dining room table, and Joe was rolling out of bed as one of our talent but also my husband. I would cook dinner for the talent team at my house. We would take talent meetings in my living room, which was just so bizarre and unprofessional, but worked. We would also throw these wild game nights, board game nights, so Settlers of Catan was very popular at that time. We would have 40 YouTubers in our house playing Settlers of Catan with multiple games going on. My house was like a YouTuber hotel. We had a guest bedroom. Jenna Marbles came and stayed. Lena came and stayed with us. DeStorm. It was very wholesome and very duct tape and bubble gum feeling. We were just kind of figuring it out. Chris Erwin:I remember that. I remember Steve explaining, "Oh, we're having a reorg." The reorg was like, "Okay, we're moving the talent team to Sarah's house across the street." Then, production goes upstairs into a semi-new office that we got. For us, at that size, that was like a big deal. Sarah Penna:It was. Yeah. Oh, man, when we moved to our Lindblade offices, was that like heaven on earth to have an actual office, but that was later. Another funny memory I had was when Max first started. He had come from a place where he was doing really, really big deals. I handed him off a brand deal opportunity for $1,500 and he went in the bathroom, which by the way was right next to everybody's desk and splashed cold water on his face. We had moved him from New York to LA and he was just like, "What am I doing?" Ultimately, Max, obviously, was an absolute rockstar and built out that sales team to just be very profitable and doing really well. Sarah Penna:But that first deal was $1,500, and that was just par for the course at that time. It was shocking to people coming from the outside and then once it clicked, it really clicked and you're like, "Okay, I get what we're doing here." But there was just a lot of duct tape and bubble gum. Chris Erwin:I think Max is going to be an interview on this podcast coming up. I have interviewed Dan Levitt. When I think of Dan, we talk about when I first interviewed him and I think he showed up in some shiny suit and Jason Szymanski in the back office is pointing. He's like, "Chris, we're launching a music vertical and we have a new interview candidate coming in." I would just look out the window and I would be like, "These characters." I was like, "I've never worked with any characters like this before." I come from Wall Street, so it's was like everyone's in a suit and tie. I see people coming in shiny suits and I'm just like, "I think this is the new world I'm in. I'm just going to roll with it." Chris Erwin:So, it was such a rollercoaster of fun. So, then exciting things are happening and eventually, we move into this big new office, I think on Lindblade in Culver City. We're closer to Maker. We're closer to Fullscreen. Then, we run a process to sell the company. I'm just curious to hear from you, Sarah. Bringing Steve on was probably like, that was a big decision for you, but then hiring an investment bank that's going to run a sales process, we're going to have new ownership and potential leadership. What was it like for you to make that decision? Sarah Penna:That was really hard. I just wanted to keep the party going. Like many young entrepreneurs, I think I tied my identity completely to this company. And my husband was in the next office, he was a client. We went home, we would talk about brand deals over dinner. My entire identity was Big Frame. All of my friends were in some way, shape or form involved in this company. My family would tease me when I'd go home for Christmas. They're like, "Are all of your friends under contract?" I was like, "Yeah, kind of." Chris Erwin:Maybe a nice way to go through life. Sarah Penna:Yeah. I mean, we know where we stand with each other. No, but I just, I was so immersed that the idea of losing control was hard. I think I also felt my limitations as a founder and that's hard to come up against when you're kind of, I don't want to say that I was arrogant, but I was really confident and I felt really good about how I was running things and running the company. Then, we got to a point where my limitations and our limitations became evident and that's hard. It was hard and it was also exciting because it is, under most circumstances, it's a great thing. I also just had never been through anything like that, so I let a lot of anxiety get to me. Sarah Penna:I let it completely consume me. I'll be totally transparent. I would cry on the bathroom floor, like, what am I doing? There was a lot of doubt. I think that was probably the biggest strain on Steve and I's relationship, is how to go about this and how to present in the room. That was a big source of stress for us. Who's going to present? Is it me? I've been out there kind of the face of the company. I've been doing all the panels, and the VidCons, and the press, and the creator. Or is it Steve, who is the CEO who, frankly, should be doing it? Chris Erwin:That was unclear. We brought in an executive coach to help us figure that out. Sarah Penna:We did. Ultimately, like many of these things, it just came about through relationships and less about going and pitching, and the relationship that I had kind of built and cultivated, and changing landscape. There were a lot of factors, but that was very stressful. Then, in New Year's Eve of 2013, while we were in the middle of this process, I found out I was pregnant. Chris Erwin:Just to pile it on. Sarah Penna:Just for fun. Thought that would be a great thing to add on to the plate at the time. It's so funny because I think back a lot to the moment where I told Steve that I was pregnant, I was hysterical. I couldn't even tell him. I was crying so hard. He was like, in a very nice way, "I don't understand why you're so upset. This is a good thing." I was like, "What?" I thought he was going to be so mad and that this was going to ruin everything. I tell that story only to say, I think that our culture makes young women feel like ... and I had a lot of people tell me, then opened up to me over the years, that they felt like they can't have kids because of ... that moment of, "Oh, my gosh, I have to now disclose this thing." Sarah Penna:Even if it's illegal to not move forward with something because someone's pregnant, you can still find other ways. So, I thought I had completely ruined everything and that was ... I'm very sad about that looking back, but Steve really was like, "This is awesome. I'm so happy for you. Don't even think about it. Nobody's going to bat an eye." That was true. I wound up giving a keynote at VidCon eight months pregnant and we sold the company, but that was very stressful. Also, I couldn't drink. It was a lot. We were celebrating and I was like, "You know what? I'm having a glass of champagne because I'm ... You all have been drinking through this very stressful process and I haven't." Chris Erwin:More like being pregnant was also a launching pad for you to launch the mom's vertical at Awesomeness- Sarah Penna:Yes. Chris Erwin:... which came thereafter but, yeah, just to add some context on some of the notes here. I remember in the MCN days, there was the early Awesomeness launch in 2011 and then it was sold to DreamWorks, I think, in 2012, and everyone got really excited. But then, the YouTube MCN winter hit and there was a lack of capital flowing into the space. People were saying like, "Are these businesses real? Are they viable? Are they just going to get consolidated into traditional media?" It was harder to raise capital, and there was a lot of doubt in the ecosystem. Then, in 2013, I think in the second half of the year, Disney bought Maker for $500 million. Then, we made a decision, we're like, "There's a moment in time here, let's hire an investment banker." Shout out to Brian Stengel. Sarah Penna:Yay, Brian. Chris Erwin:We kicked off a process in the second half of 2013 and sold in April of 2014 to AwesomenessTV. Look, I was very intimately involved in that process with you and Steve. I saw how hard it was on you guys. You guys were just carrying an incredible burden. I think something, too, like a theme of your career, Sarah, where you have this passion for overlooked communities. I think you getting into the digital fears, there's a way to service these new creator voices in an exciting way with new business models and new distribution models. I bet there was some fear of ... A lot of this business was your friends and your friends actually had equity in the company. Chris Erwin:You had given equity out to a lot of creators when you launched Cloud Media and Big Frame. What if all that was going to change with this new ownership? I think that was probably a moment that you were concerned about. I don't know if we'll ever make all these details public, but the sales process, I just remember like one week it would be super exciting. We're flying to New York for this big meeting with a traditional publisher. Conversations are going really well and then they completely flat lined and go nowhere. Then, the next week, it's like really exciting, but eventually got to a great result. Sarah Penna:At three in the morning, while we were all still at the Big Frame offices collapsed on the floor. Yes. Chris Erwin:We end up selling to AwesomenessTV. I think that was a very exciting experience for all of us. I think Awesomeness was, in a way, they were the Goldman Sachs of the YouTuber economy back then. They built an incredible team and network, and I think we all really learned a lot from Brian Robbins and Joe Davola. Just amazing creative visionaries. You also launched a mom's vertical while you're there with Snooki and JWoww, you do the corporate thing for, I think, two to three years then it's okay, what are you going to do next? I think that you start seeing another underserved community, which is the romance community, and you think about launching a company there. So, what's that quick story? Sarah Penna:While I was running the mom's vertical, which as you said, I think my big passion in life is finding underserved communities and overlooked communities and creating content around them. I felt at that time that the content that was out there for moms was just not great and it was a huge market. So, Brian had brought on a woman named Lisa Berger who comes from E! and has had a very long traditional media career. He brought her on to do the Go90 programming and the YouTube programming for the Awestruck, which is the mom's vertical. We hit it off and we have a great time together running this crazy thing, and we wind up optioning a romance novel and turning it into a series for Go90. Sarah Penna:Very, very, very long story short, we crashed Go90 because of how popular it was, despite everyone telling us it wasn't going to work. I'm a huge reader and I love romance. I was looking out at the landscape and saying, "You know what? I think romance is going to have a moment, like what Marvel did for geek culture, where now it's cool to be a geek." I think we're at this point, this is 2017. Trump is in office. Women are pissed off. We're sick of all of the stuff that we're like being disparaged. We're sick of all of the female characters in popular shows being killed off or assaulted or whatever. We just want happily ever afters. Everyone's disparaging this romance community as just sad cat ladies, single cat ladies eating bonbons. Sarah Penna:I was like, "We're going to go prove them wrong. Fuck this." Similar to the early days of YouTube, where I saw these influencers have a chip on their shoulder where, "Oh, you just think I am a single dude making videos in my mom's basement." There was a similar misconception about the romance novel fandom. The romance novel fandom is actually incredibly educated, diverse, not just in who they are, but where they live and their socioeconomic status. They're incredibly feminist and they know that it's fun and cheesy. They know that there's a wink and a nod. We set out to create a space to celebrate that, not make fun of it, not disparage it. Sarah Penna:It's a fascinating culture, a fascinating community. I was not part of it in the sense of participating in the fandom, but I've been a long time romance novel reader and I was in the closet about it because I was embarrassed. So, we banished the term guilty pleasure because we don't want anyone to feel guilty about reading romance. So, we set out and we created a digital platform and a newsletter, and then started optioning novels to turn into movies and TV shows. We got a first look deal with CBS. We have a deal with Audible and we have a deal with iHeartRadio. Our daily podcast is going to launch in February. So, really set out to just create a space where people who actually know and love romance are creating the content. Chris Erwin:I love that, Sarah. It's also very interesting, when you came to me and I was like, "Sarah, what are you thinking about? What's up next?" You told me about the romance community. I did a double take and I paused because I'm like, "Wait, this is such a huge community." I think in traditional media, think of all the rom-com movies, but nothing in digital. I'm like, "Yeah, this is totally overlooked. Why is no one else talking about this? This is huge." I think it's very interesting how you characterize it as ... yeah, often when I say, even to this day, "I'm going to watch a rom-com." I'm embarrassed as just an older male saying that, but why? Why do we say it's a guilty pleasure? Chris Erwin:Why is there any guilt about a really fun love story? When love is one of the number one drivers of happiness and a common theme that all of us talk about around the dinner table and with our friends. Sarah Penna:Why is being a horror fan, seeing people get murdered, why is that not looked down upon, but seeing people be happy is? Very interesting. Chris Erwin:Very interesting points about the romance community. So, you are at Patreon now. Are you still co-running Frolic? What is happening with Frolic Media? Sarah Penna:Yeah. So, Lisa has taken over and is helming Frolic. I continue to be a strategic advisor and obviously, care very deeply about the future of where that company goes, and cheerleading and championing them from the position that I am in now. Chris Erwin:I think it's a very exciting space. We interviewed Naomi Shah, the founder of Meet Cute on this podcast as well, which does these, call it like rom-com microcast. I started listening to those over the past six months and I absolutely love them. Bite-sized nuggets of just rom-com joy in audio form. So, I believe in it. Pay attention to RockWater's 2021 predictions about underserved communities because I think this could be ... potentially, we will publish this likely in the end of January. It could be a good cover note that you're sending to any potential investors or partners for you. Sarah Penna:Absolutely. Thank you. Chris Erwin:Believe in the thesis. Okay. So, before talking about Patreon, I just want to talk about another concurrent journey within your family in the media space, which is your husband, Joe. He's been a creator for over a decade. I think in the past few years, he was digital native on YouTube doing incredible stop motion biography, but always wanted to cross over. I think he's realized some incredible success recently. Why don't you tell us about that? Sarah Penna:Joe is just, I obviously am biased, but he has an incredible creative mind. He's good at everything he does, which is so annoying, but I love him for it. He is good at languages, and art, and music, and math, and all of that really combined and you can see that reflected in the fun, playful nature of MysteryGuitarMan. But like you said, ultimately, he really wanted to direct movies. When he first started down the journey, there was a trend of these influencer-helmed, one to two million dollar movies that would be VOD and make back their money. You'd put the how many subscribers that YouTuber had and how much we were going to sell it for, and set download on iTunes, and that was where his agency and his management team was kind of pushing him to. Sarah Penna:He said, "You know what? That's not really the path that I'm going to take," and wrote a movie called Arctic, which is a mostly silent movie helmed by a 50-something-year old Danish actor named Mads Mikkelsen. So, quite the opposite of an influencer-helmed comedy. Joe willed that movie into existence. There was every hurdle against him. He had to start from the bottom. His YouTube channel didn't help him because he wasn't doing an extension of MysteryGuitarMan. He didn't want to be in front of the camera and he did it, and that movie got into Cannes. We went to Cannes, and it premiered and got a 10-minute standing ovation. Chris Erwin:Whoa, I did not know that. A 10-minute standing ovation at Cannes? Sarah Penna:Yeah. Chris Erwin:Good for you guys. Sarah Penna:So, that was just ... walking that famous red carpet, and for me, it was wonderful because I ... He had finally gotten traditional management. I was no longer managing him. So, I actually got to go to Cannes just as his wife, as his plus one. I was not worrying about logistics and getting him to his interviews on time. I still was but I wasn't [crosstalk 00:47:45]. Chris Erwin:It takes a village to get Joe to an interview on time. Sarah Penna:Truly, especially in a foreign country. That's a whole other story. So, that was just a really incredible moment to see and he, off the heels of that, they announced at Cannes his next movie, which was called Stowaway, which had Anna Kendrick and Toni Collette, and Daniel Dae Kim, and Shamier Anderson in it. It premiered on Netflix last year. Now, he is working on so many new projects and so, hopefully we'll be shooting another one this year. He's loving it. He's very good at it. He has the personality to be a director. Very in control of his set, he's very calm, creative, collaborative and it's just very, very cool to see. You know what? He went through the grieving process of letting go of that YouTube channel and he's out on the other side and making things happen. Chris Erwin:That's awesome. I remember when we heard that news, there was a lot of text threads amongst the Big Frame community. I remember texting with Byron and with Max, and with Steve about, "Look, how awesome is this about Joe? Have you heard?" We know that he'd been working so hard and he was just such an incredible creator from day one. So, we're pumped for him and it feels like this is just the beginning for what he's going to do. Right? Sarah Penna:It really feels like he's on the trajectory, for sure. Chris Erwin:Yeah. So, look, you and Joe, as this media power couple continue to evolve. Speaking of the most recent step in your evolution, as we work to the final segment of this interview, Sarah, you guys moved to Santa Barbara, I think during the COVID pandemic. Then, you recently, someone that we've known mutually for a while, Avi Gandhi, you started talking to him at Patreon and saw an opportunity to join the creator team over there, which is your latest creator adventure. So, tell us about what excited you about moving to Santa Barbara and your new role at Patreon, and what you're doing over there. Sarah Penna:Yeah. So, I wanted to move to Santa Barbara for 10 years and it never was feasible or realistic, and I, like many people during the pandemic, had a very hard year. Living in LA just became very challenging. Jonah, my son, our son is, when the pandemic started was five, and now he's seven. We just felt if we were going to do it, it was now or never because he started having his best friends and it just becomes harder as they get older. So, we just pulled the ripcord and we did it with no plan, no idea if it was going to work out and it has been just an absolute dream come true. We love it up here and was fortunate enough to be able to join this incredible company, Patreon. Sarah Penna:I joined in November and like many things in my career, it just felt so right that I couldn't pass it up. A big driving factor was, obviously, it's very hard to leave my start-up and to leave Frolic. I did it in the best way I could, but for me, going to a place that really shares my values in that creator space, I started seeing the creator economy and the interest in it heating up in a way that I haven't seen in a long time. Similar to when I met Danny all those years ago, and I was like, "I need to be a part of this." I felt that the train was leaving the station without me and I wanted to get back into the creator space. Sarah Penna:I took a lot of time looking at what is the right company for me, for my values, and for what I want to do. Patreon is kind of a unicorn, a unicorn in the sense that it's valued at a unicorn status, but also a unicorn, for me, because it hit this very narrow target of what I was looking for. Chris Erwin:Just remind me, how long has Patreon been around for? Because I remember Patreon, early days of when I started Big Frame in 2012. Is that right? Sarah Penna:Yeah, eight years. Chris Erwin:So, now at Patreon, what team are you running there and what are you focused on for 2022? Sarah Penna:I live on the creator partnerships team and I run a team called Launch. We are responsible for giving creators white glove experience for launching their Patreon pages. We have teams that are going out and sourcing those creators. Once they come to us, they are pretty excited about the platform and we help them figure out what tiers are best for them, what banner image is going to look good, and really help them drive towards their launch date. These are creators that range in all kinds of sizes and all kinds of ... I'm talking to someone who makes leather, like leather wallets and leather goods, and we're talking to big YouTube creators and celebrities, and we're talking to everybody in between. Sarah Penna:It's just a really exciting time to be at a company like Patreon that's been in the creator space for so long, is helmed by a creator, and is going to continue to be a real player in the creator economy as it goes forward. Chris Erwin:It seems that there's incredible traction for your business where I think there was a recent announcement. The team is currently 400, but you're doubling the company to 800 people this year. Is that right? Sarah Penna:Yes, that's what they say. Chris Erwin:Well, look, I think the market tailwinds are definitely behind them. I think, yeah, it's a really exciting evolution. We've written about this extensively at RockWater. YouTube created these new business models for creators, where they can publish content online and then participate in ad revenue through YouTube's AdSense program. Then, the chance to distribute content to other social platforms and participate in ad revenue there and then doing talent deals, brand integrations, and getting paid off platform. Then now, I think there's this incredible movement with all these creators, the audiences that they bring, the fandoms that they generate, the engagement that they generate on these platforms, they're the real moneymakers. Chris Erwin:So, how do you give them more tools though, to also not only build these platform businesses, but their own businesses? So, Patreon doing that, allowing them to have direct relationships with their fans, get access to contact information, monetize in different ways behind a paywall, different types of subscription content, whether it's video or audio, whatever else. I think what you guys are doing is a beautiful thing. We need more companies thinking like you. So, I think that you guys are really well set up for success, and I'm excited, Sarah, for the different communities of creators that you guys can represent, that have a need, that don't have the tools from other platforms that are overlooked right now yet, again, going back to what you do best. Sarah Penna:Thank you. I absolutely agree with all of that. I have said for years, as some people, not many, but a lot of people in the creator space, you need to own your audience. Renting your audience is not sustainable. You need to build community. You need to not just be on a conveyor belt of content, You really need, as a creator in this space, the tools are there for you to build a sustainable business and to not be tied to the whims of platforms and algorithms. There's a big conversation about creator burnout. Patreon is positioned to help creators solve some of these big issues, big and, by the way, nuanced issues. It's not just, oh, these platforms are bad and we are good at all. Sarah Penna:These platforms are great and you need to build up audiences on your podcast and on your social. If you are able to have ... I'm a really big a fan of Seth Godin's 1,000 true fans idea. If you can build out 1,000 true fans who are on your Patreon, you might be covering your rent. You might be covering your rent plus plus, and you might be making a really good living. That's what we want. We want to empower creators and we're really set up to do that. It's just an exciting time to join the company. Chris Erwin:Before we wrap this up with the closing rapid fire round, Sarah, I just got to give you some big kudos here. You legitimately changed my life. I'm trying not to become emotional here. I look back on my past career over the past 10 years and everything that I've done, being able to found RockWater is a function of you, starting Cloud Media and Big Frame, and then taking a chance on me. I had a very different background than someone that you had ever typically hired before. I'm sure that you needed some convincing from the rest of your leadership team. Chris Erwin:But what I have learned with you, the pedigree that I've gained and the experience has not only been so personally transformational, all these new relationships that I've built, women that I've dated and just incredible friendships and all of the above, it's really set up an exciting career for me. Something that I wake up to, excited to do every day. I see a lot of incredible potential going forward. It's a function of you taking a chance on me and getting early into the digital video MCN days. So, I am very, very thankful. I think there's many people that have very similar sentiments to what I just shared. Chris Erwin:So, I'm probably speaking on behalf of many. So, big kudos to you, and particularly to call out, I don't come from a creative background. When I came in and was very systematic and operational, I wanted to scale the business, it took me a while. But seeing how you ran the creative team, how you nurtured the culture, when you brought in Rachel and Megan Corbett, and Lisa Filipelli, and Byron, and people that I spent a lot of time with and really learned an incredible amount from, it really all stems from you. So, Sarah, you have been an incredible person in my life. You did incredible things for all the talent at Big Frame. Chris Erwin:You are now doing the game again, with Frolic and with Patreon, and I wish you the best. As you know, anytime that you need anything, sometimes we don't talk for six months or a year, but when we do, we pick up very, very quickly. I am a massive supporter of everything that you do. So, call me whenever you have a need. Sarah Penna:Thank you. Now I'm crying. Thank you so much, Chris. That means a lot to me. Chris Erwin:Very well-deserved. Okay. So, now, let's move into closing rapid fire. Six questions. The rules are, you can answer in one sentence or in one to two words. Do you understand the rules? Sarah Penna:Yes. Chris Erwin:Okay. Here we go. Proudest life moment? Sarah Penna:Having my son Jonah. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do less of in 2022? Sarah Penna:Less complicated. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do more of? Sarah Penna:More space in my schedule. Chris Erwin:I like that. Advice for media execs going into 2022? Sarah Penna:Don't believe all of the hype and just keep your eye on the ball. Chris Erwin:Any future start-up ambitions, Miss Entrepreneur? Sarah Penna:God, I hope not. No, not as of right now. I am very happy not running a company right now. Chris Erwin:Not necessarily off the table. That's basically what you're saying. Sarah Penna:It's never off the table with me. Chris Erwin:Last one. This is an easy one. How can people get in contact with you? Sarah Penna:Sarah@patreon.com. Chris Erwin:Very easy. All right, Sarah, this was a true delight. Thanks for being on the podcast. Sarah Penna:Thank you so much, Chris. This was so much fun for me, too. Chris Erwin:Wow. That interview with Sarah just flew by. I felt like there were so many more things that we could have discussed. We'll have to do another podcast together. Yeah, I admit I got a little teary-eyed at the end there just going down memory lane with her. She was really formative in my career and, yeah, that really hit me at the end. I was not expecting that. All right. So, a few quick things. Our Livestream Commerce executive dinner is coming up. The date is now March 10th. We are 98% close to confirming that with our sponsor. But if you're interested in attending, shoot us a note. You can reach us at hello@wearerockwater.com. Chris Erwin:Also, we are hiring. We're looking for interns, undergrad and MBA level, and also a full-time analyst. We are growing all things creator economy and we need help. If you're interested, you can apply at jobs@wearerockwater.com. Lastly, we love to hear from our listeners. If you have any feedback on the show, any ideas for guests, just reach out to us. We're at tcupod@wearerockwater.com. All right, that's it, everybody. Thanks for listening. The Come Up is written and hosted by me, Chris Erwin, and is a production of Rockwater Industries. Chris Erwin:Please rate and review this show on Apple podcast and remember to subscribe wherever you listen to our show. If you really dig us, feel free to forward The Come Up to a friend. You can sign up for our company newsletter at wearerockwater.com/newsletter and you could follow us on Twitter @TCUpod. The Come Up is engineered by Daniel Tureck. Music is by Devon Bryant. Logo and branding is by Kevin Zazzali. Special thanks to Alex Zirin and Eric Kenigsberg from the RockWater team. 

Alison Eakle is the EVP and Head of Creative Development at Shondaland. We discuss how imagining movie posters makes her a better creative exec, being a co-EP on Netflix's #1 show Bridgerton, why she's racked up so many recent promotions, and being part of new Hollywood's most groundbreaking streamer partnerships. Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com---EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Alison Eakle:I'll never forget there was... The current assistant had put out a job posting. And how this works in Hollywood is you'll see jobs on things called tracking boards or emailed chains, but they always say, "No phone calls, please. Just email your resume." Right? And I was like, "I'm going to call him." And I did. And I just called him and I was like, "Look, I did not come up through the agency feed. I don't have the required experience, but I swear to God the desk I'm on is harder than any agency desk you can imagine. And I'll tell you why if you meet me for like 15 minutes." So we did. We literally met in the middle of the lot at Paramount. He was like, "You know what? I think my boss would like you." Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Alison Eakle, the EVP and Head of Creative Development at Shondaland. Alison grew up on the Jersey shore, actually my same hometown. She loved the arts since an early age, traveling to New York City for auditions as a young teenager, but she was planning to give it all up at Georgetown for career in politics until she had a breakthrough moment in her screenwriting class. Alison went on to get her MFA at UT Austin and then had roles in some of the most exciting production houses in Hollywood, from Paramount Vantage to Columbia Pictures and working for Ellen DeGeneres. Then a serendipitous moment took her to Shondaland where her career has been on fire. Some highlights of our chat include how imagining movie posters makes her a better creative exec, being a co EP and Netflix is number one show bridging that where she's racked up so many recent promotions and being part of new Hollywood's most groundbreaking streamer partnerships. All right, let's get into it. Alison, thanks for being on the podcast. Alison Eakle:Thanks for having me, Chris Erwin Chris Erwin:Very well, Alison Eakle. We got some history between us. Alison Eakle:That's right. Chris Erwin:So let's go back a bit. Where did you grow up? What was your household like? Alison Eakle:So I grew up in Rumson, New Jersey, which is a bit of a towny suburb, as they say, in the Northern part of the Jersey shore obviously. Well, I grew up the only child of Wall Street parents. Parents who had met kind of working at Wall Street in the '70s at a time that I've heard many incredible stories about. And it's interesting because when I was eight, there was a big stock market crash. And my dad was all for Morgan Stanley and my mom inspired him to start their own company, a financial investment advisory firm called Eakle and Associates. And so it's interesting I haven't really thought about that a lot, but I did watch my dad face what is one of my worst fears, that idea of just suddenly everything kind of pulled out from underneath you and I watched them together kind of build something new. Chris Erwin:Did your parents both work for the company? Alison Eakle:Oh yeah. My mom was VP, he was president and basically it was just a three person operation. And my dad, he had clients that he would manage their portfolios, but he put out something called the Eakle Report every week and would have to find really creative ways to talk about the stock market, which Godspeed to him because I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. I have no idea how to talk about the stock market. My mom ran all the logistics, taught herself computers at that time and really brought her up to speed fast. And they had that company for a long time until their divorce, which I have no idea what role the company played in that, but they definitely had it for, it was over 10 years, really successful. So that's kind of like what I grew up in. And I was very privileged. I came from a place of a lot of privilege where I went to private school. Chris Erwin:RCDS? Alison Eakle:RCDS, Rumson Country Day School, big shout outs, still very loyal to that school, that little short brown stone church on the corner. Chris Erwin:Are you still involved with the RCDS community? Like I have the friends from school I'm still in touch with, but I'm not giving back or anything like that. Well, maybe I should rethink it. Alison Eakle:No, I am not as involved as I want to be. I did have like a strange fantasy that one summer I'd go back or one year I'd go back to my 20s and substitute teach there. I don't know where that came from but- Chris Erwin:On the theatrical program? Alison Eakle:Yeah, why not? I'll do so. I love a school play. I love that. I love something roughly adapted from children's literature into strange costumes and children sputtering around on a stage, but it was just such a surreal experience because it was so safe, so incredible. I feel like that experience really formed me even from kindergarten on. And it was across the street from Bruce Springsteen's house. So what a quintessential New Jersey experience really? Chris Erwin:Yeah. I remember walking down Bruce's driveway on Halloween. He always would give out like the supersize snicker bars. Alison Eakle:Yeah. And [inaudible 00:04:44]. Chris Erwin:It was always like, we got to go to Bruce's house then we'd go to Bon Jovi's house. That was like such a fun thing. Alison Eakle:Yeah. That's very dead on. I grew up there riding bikes to the beach, just walking around the neighborhood. They're a very arcade fire of the suburbs kind of existence, but with the modicum of real safety that I so appreciate now and also again realize how lucky I was in a lot of ways. Chris Erwin:So I have to ask, your parents are to business, it's just funny to hear that. I just recorded a podcast last week with Naomi Shah, the Founder of Meet Cute, it's a new romcom podcast network. And her parents started a technology business based out of Portland, Oregon. And so it's just funny that now like a week later I'm interviewing you and your parents started a business together as well. There is an entrepreneurship vein in your family. So was there a theme though about your interest in the arts that came from your parents or did that come separately? Alison Eakle:That was from really my aunt and uncle. And look, my mom was one of those people who did leave her job when she had me, but continued to have that kind of type A excel at anything she put her mind to it personality. She was somebody who played the organ. We had like a Hammond organ in our living room now that I think about it. She had interest in music and musicals and all of that thing and certainly was very supportive of the arts, but wasn't necessarily kind of ensconced in it. Whereas my aunt had been an actress since the day I was born, my uncle had been an agent at Theatrical Agent in New York, but also run his own company called Cornerstone up until he died. And so for me... And they were much younger than my parents. My mom is like 12 years older than my aunt. Alison Eakle:So they were this cool young aunt and uncle really ensconced in show business. They took me to my first Broadway play Les Miserables when I was 10. I felt incredibly like I had a model to look at of like what would a life in that business look like. And I definitely was born with the bug and loved trying to get the solo in school plays or whatever it was. And eventually my parents did let me act as a kid and tried to make a go of it professionally. And I was represented at a now defunct agency called J. Michael Bloom. Chris Erwin:What age is that, Alison? Alison Eakle:So this is like, by the time I'm actually wrapped I'm 13. So this is like '93, which is a very awkward age to be putting yourself out there. But for whatever reason, I was really into it and loved it and had some close calls. I got to do a callback in a room with James Ivory for Jefferson in Paris, a role that eventually went to Gwyneth Paltrow, which I think the better woman won. They aged it up and gave it to her, I remember, but it was such a cool experience too for a year. My parents were very anti stage parents. They were like, "Look, you clearly have some bit of talent in this and you really want to try it. We'll let you try it. But it's going to be for a small amount of time." It was only like maybe a year and a half, two years and then you really do have to go back and focus on like high school if it doesn't click, if there's not for me. And I only went out, I didn't go out for commercials. So it was sort of- Chris Erwin:Did you take time off from school at all for this? Alison Eakle:RCDS was really lenient in the sense that if I had to leave at three o'clock for like an audition in the city or to do a reading for an off-Broadway play or whatever it was, I could be flexible, but come close as I may have, I never got the big part that would have necessitated the on-set tutor. Chris Erwin:Did you feel at an early age, a clear interest in the arts and that, hey, this is going to be my career, this is where I'm going to be? Alison Eakle:I think if you look at my life in general too, and we'll talk about this, it's so funny because that clearly was always had such a strong pull that even when I tried to divert myself to more stable or a prestigious academically kind of bent careers, like politics and things like that, somehow it would just find me again and kind of pull me back to acting, writing, performing, creating, that side of things. Chris Erwin:So I think it's good that Gwyneth got the part because you've obviously had very special trajectory at Shondaland, you are exactly where you are meant to be. Alison Eakle:That is very reassuring to hear. And I do tell myself that sometimes. And I do get to still read parts at table reads occasionally at Shondaland, which is how I scratched that itch. Chris Erwin:So you're acting in your teams, you have some representation, you're going out on auditions, I just got to throw this out there from the RCDS memories, for some reason this is so ingrained in my brain. I remember taking the bus with you I think after school and then going down, I think if I remember correctly, it was a stone driveway, a gray stone driveway. It was a circle. The school bus would go down that and we would drop you off and your house, was it a gray house or a white house? Alison Eakle:Yeah. A gray house and white trim. It doesn't exist anymore. It was raised to the ground to build some other crazy mansion, but it was an adorable 1920s house. Four fireplaces when I think about it. Good God. Chris Erwin:Wow. One of my earliest memories that is definitely imprinted in my brain and I remember specifically from you, I think you were a year above me. Alison Eakle:That's kind. I'm three years older than you. I just loved to hang out with... Chris Erwin:Yeah. So that's what I was going to say is that you befriended myself and my twin brother, John, and you're always so kind to us on the bus. So you were very interesting. You just had interesting points of views on things and we picked that up at a pretty early age. Alison Eakle was at the light in my childhood, but it didn't stop there. So after RCDS, I left that school system I think around third grade and I went into the public school system as did some of our other friends. At RFH, I think that's where we were reunited in a Spanish class. You were a senior and I was a freshman, was that Parker's class or Von Handle? Who was that? Alison Eakle:Oh, maybe it was Von Handle actually, now that I think about it, but I couldn't remember her name. I just remember she had great hair, like a really perfect... So what did happen was I took French from third grade forward. And then in high school I had done the AP and I was like, I sort of want to start another language when I might have a chance of speaking on a daily basis. And so I started Spanish as a junior, but it was hilarious to be... It was my only experience of being the lone senior in a class full of freshmen. It was such a blast and such a different perspective on things at that point in my life. I was so happy to be in it with you. And it was Adam Sachs too. Chris Erwin:It was Adam Sachs. Maybe John Waters was in there. Alison Eakle:Yeah. Waters 100%. And we had to make a video. I'll never forget this. We had to make a video project for the class. I forget who else was on my team, but there was like a surfer kid named Ryan. And we stormed at his house and I was just like, I'm 18 years old at this point just making a weird Spanish video with a bunch of freshmen in it, but it was great. I felt like I really loved that experience. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Very on theme again, a little bit older hanging out with the younger kids, we enjoyed it. There's something in the water, I think from like the Rumson Monmouth County area for Hollywood, because it's a bunch of people from the East Coast, but then Adam Sachs is running Team Coco, Conan O'Brien, you Andy Redmond running Tornante under Michael Eisner, you're at Shondaland doing a thing, Matt Warshauer another friend is a writer and- Alison Eakle:A really talented writer. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Impressive creator. And then I'm trying to do my thing at RockWater in New Media. So there's a crew of us out here together. Alison Eakle:It was probably the biggest surprise to me when I got here is how many people from growing up in New Jersey are out here, both from that experience, the experience we shared, but also somehow or another, we convinced a lot of people to leave New York when we first came out here in the mid 2000s. And we have a really... I always thought it would be kind of my film school crew that would, and there's a lot of them, the Austin Kids out here too, Austin, Texas, but tons of Jersey people. Chris Erwin:So after high school, the arts theme continues. You go to Georgetown, did you run a TV station there? Alison Eakle:Yeah. Well, it's so funny. I went there, again, trying to do like the sensible thing. I was like, I'm going to be in politics and urban development. And I had a real tracy flick then to me of like, I'm going to be the mayor of the city. And then I got into those classes and was sort of put off by the approach that the other students had to government and the idea that everybody was obviously in this kind of self aggrandized way. And I realized, oh, that's not maybe my jam. I'm not here to prove how much I know about how many congressmen are from which districts or what have you. I really wanted to affect change on a local level. Of course, part of its insane ambition. I don't think anyone decides to go into politics without being a little amped up about that and being like, I think I'm pretty great. Alison Eakle:I absolutely had that threat, but I felt so kind of outpaced by my classmates in terms of their ambition and I started to question if it was for me. And then weirdly enough, it was a sophomore class, a screenwriting class I took with a professor named John Glavin. And at that time, he had mentored Jonah Nolan who at that point had made Memento with his brother and suddenly I had, yet again, a model to look at him like, oh, somebody in a class just like this with this man as their professor broke through. Right? Obviously he has incredible talent. And that stuff can't be taught, but it was like suddenly I could at least see a path sort of. That same year, I think my sophomore year Georgetown University Television, the finest closer television channel in the land was starting on campus, and I realized, oh, that seems like fun. Alison Eakle:And my first show that I produced and sometimes hosted with Aaron Cocce and Brian Walsh, was it called G Talk Live? And I even forget all that I did. It was sort of a running gun, all hands on deck, but it's like a live call-in show, a talk show, panel show for the campus. And I'll never forget they were like, "Alison, do you want to host a very special episode?" And I said, "Of course, I do." About one of the most pressing topics out there, Dawson's Creek. So that was my big contribution, but I loved it. And I stayed with the television station all three years. And at my senior year, we sponsored like a film festival and the films were incredible. And you think back it was... I looked at a program I'd kept from maybe six years ago when I was moving and it's like, Zal Batmangli, creator of The OA along with Brit Marling, the two of them had made one of the shorts and contention and Mike Cahill and Brit Marling had also collaborated in a way that would pre-stage their collaborations on another earth. Alison Eakle:And it was kind of incredible because I look back and I see that drive. I see all of these people who actually were trying to carve out a space at a school maybe not known for people who are going to forge a path in TV and film doing so, but also it was like Mike Birbiglia and Nick Kroll, John Mulaney were all my contemporaries as well. So also seeing a real comedy scene evolve, I feel like again, very lucky and they're at the right time in terms of it was in the zeitgeists of again, getting to look at people really trying to forge that path in a way that I had not seen before. Chris Erwin:And then you felt, I think, empowered. It's like, I can do this. Like that screen writing class was a spark for you. It's like, fine, this is what I'm going to pursue. I came here for political science and different reasons, but that's now changed. Alison Eakle:Yeah. I'm so glad I decided to try it and listen. And again, at that point I'd let go of the acting thing, even though I would still occasionally act in like one act plays that friends would write or things like that. But I do think the acting informed the love of writing, which in turn, all of that feeds the work that I do now, essentially because I think as a creative executive, I do look at everything through the lens of, okay, I know what it's like to sit and stare at a blank page now with that cursor blinking and understanding kind of how do you generate something from nothing, how do you riff on ideas to try to get through a piece of writer's block, all of that. Alison Eakle:But I also approach things in terms of like, when I read a script, I do think to myself, do I want to play that role? Because I know that if I have that instinct of like, oh my God, I wish I want to say these words, I wish I could play that part, you're onto something at that point. That is a really good sign that somebody has created something worth making. Chris Erwin:Because you have an acting background, you can empathize with the words on the page and you could have a vision for how the words will manifest. Alison Eakle:It's almost like first, it's a different way that informs decision-making, right? Because in terms of creatively, the big question is like, what do you love enough that you would actually spend years of your life working on? And I think, again, that's one thing that goes, I can really appreciate when a piece of writing is going to appeal to an actor. Like in this business too, so much of it is who's going to fill this role, especially in TV so often if you're not going with an already established huge star, you need to find a person who can really become that role. Especially when there's a breakout hit and an actor has really been a part of creating that role with the writer, that follows them for the rest of their life. People always think of them in some ways as that person. Alison Eakle:So I do try to think of like, are there iconic roles in this that somebody would really dig into that would get me excited that way? And similarly, actually the writing piece of it comes into mind too, because if I read a pilot or something, but I found something worth pursuing and talking about it, if my head's already like, oh my God, I can see episodes, I know what I'd want to watch and want to see in the show, so that's the writer part of me thinking like, oh my God, if I had to pitch ideas for it, I could, that's really promising. So it's definitely stuff that that background I think does inform the work I do. Chris Erwin:Got it. As I'm listening to you, Alison, I'm hearing the passion come out from you. So I think you said you no longer act, but you really enjoy the table reads that you do with the Shondaland team. Do you think that there might be a future where you might see a script and you're inspired to be like, "You know what? I want to go do a one woman show. I'm going to join a small private troop." Is that something that either maybe you're doing now or that's like seated in your brain? Alison Eakle:It's something that I still do for friends. Like we'll still do writer's table reads together and things like that. I don't think I would rule out the idea of doing some kind of acting with friends on a project. I don't think it's going to be generated by me. I don't think I'm going to be the one to push it forward, but I think that if an opportunity presented itself, it would be really fun. And I actually love the idea of like voiceover, that idea of doing that kind of work too, because I give real actors steeped in their craft so much credit because the way you make yourself so vulnerable reading at a table read or doing a piece of voiceover where I can kind of hide behind, not be on camera and not be seen, that's more appealing to me now than leaving it all on the stage every night or really exposing myself fully on a show or a film and just emotionally, physically all of these things. I think that stuff's incredibly scary and every time I see actors go for it, I'm just standing out. Chris Erwin:Shondaland launched an audio business and maybe scripted audio is in your future. You could do some of that. You just- Alison Eakle:I'm going to ask Sandy Bailey if I can audition for some of those pieces. That's right. Chris Erwin:All right, cool. I want to flow into your early career, but so after Georgetown, you end up getting your MFA at UT Austin. So from there I think you go to New York for around six months and then you transition to LA if that's right. Tell us quickly, what was that journey from being at UT Austin, one or two key themes from that and then the beginning of your journey in Hollywood thereafter? Alison Eakle:I just was interviewed about my time at UT Austin. And I think the thing that's so crazy about it, that was a big takeaway was do not let your program define you because when I got there, it was just an MA screenwriting program. It became an MFA screenwriting program. But I think there was this kind of a mentality sometimes like we were the weird step-kids of like the film program, but also the really prestigious writing, the James Michener program that is for like novelists, poets, playwrights. So it's like a multi-disciplinary incredibly competitive workshop. Two years, they pay you. It was easy sometimes to feel a little less than, but then as time got going and I just fell in love with a couple of professors, I started like working on short films with people. I was a TA. Speaking of hanging out with younger kids and being a TA as a grad student, I can't tell you how many of my former students are also out here killing it and just absolutely running shit. Alison Eakle:And it blows my mind that I ever thought I could teach them anything like run indie film divisions of agencies. I really did start to just make my experience what I thought it could be as opposed to just be like, well, I'm just an MFA screen writing student. It was great. It was a great experience. I lived with law students instead. So that kind of exposed me to a whole different way of experiencing UT. They worked hard in the party tag, Chris, I will say that. That was my Austin experience. And I wound up working for Burnt Orange Productions, which is this company that had like a really cool experiment at hand where they were making low budget indie features like one was Elvis and Annabelle, starring a very young Blake Lively and Max Minghella. And that's the one, when I was there, they were making. Chris Erwin:So then thereafter, did you have a more specific lane of knowing where you wanted to go and what exactly you were going to do? How does that get you to, I think, was a pretty transformational role, which was at Paramount Vantage. Alison Eakle:It's so funny, but I really thought I was going to just be a screenwriter. My best friend, Ashley, who is now a show runner in her own right with her husband, she was finishing film school at Columbia. So the only reason I did that six months stint in New York was because A, growing up in Jersey and looking at New York is like the city. It just felt like I have to live in New York at some point. And so many of my good friends are there, I just want to have that experience. So I thought I might stay, that there might be a way to make it work, but New York is hard and expensive and it's even more so now an impossible place to live. But even in 2006, it's like, I'd worked Monday through Friday as like an assistant in an advertising agency and then Saturdays and Sundays, I would like go to Bronx Science and other schools in the city to teach SAT prep. Alison Eakle:So I was truly working seven days a week and still hardly getting by and I didn't even have to pay rent because I was just crashing with my friend. Her boyfriend, now husband, had moved out to LA in kind of October of '06 and we started processing and thinking about it could we really make this trip? I'm like, could I really break my mother's heart and move across the country? And eventually realized that if this is really what we wanted to do was to be screenwriters, it really did feel like we had to be in LA. And so we did it together with her two cats and her two goldfish and a Toyota Corolla. Chris Erwin:Two women, two cats, two goldfish, two Corollas. Alison Eakle:Yeah. Two of everything. One of the cats shit himself as we were crossing Arkansas. And there was a very uncomfortable gas station interaction with some locals and that cat and trying to get that cat out of the carrier of the car, but look, all worth it. The two fish died immediately when we put them in LA water, a very foreboding omen. New York was just, I knew in some way I wanted to get a chance to have an adventure with Ashley, collaborate with her potentially and we wound up moving out to LA together. Chris Erwin:Similar to you, after graduating from school in Boston, I was like, "Yeah, I got to go to New York." That's like what... You're in the tri-state area, big exciting visions. And then the fact that I can go down to the shore and see my family on like an hour train ride or the ferry that had just started to emerge. And I got stuck there for five years in finance. So you only got stuck for six months, I probably took like 10 years off my life doing finance in New York City. But you got out and so you make the move, you get to LA and then you end up at Paramount Vantage and you do a few things before that. Alison Eakle:And one really formative job. So basically I get there, I go to a temp agency my show business actors aunt had connected me with and I'm like, "Let me do a typing test. Let me show you I can use Excel." And I got a job that was temp to perm, potentially assisting a woman named Nancy Gallagher, who was an EVP of marketing at Paramount Pictures. And this woman was like close personal friends with Steven Spielberg and Joel Schumacher and Tom Cruise. Like she had done marketing campaigns for movies that had shaped my teen years, like Clueless and Titanic. Like I lost my mind when I realized really the impact she had had. She was also incredibly old-school, did not use a computer at the time. It was a kind of a wild experience. I would be there 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM. I would never leave the desk. I would take dictation. I would read her an email she got. She would dictate an answer back to me and I would type it back to the person. Chris Erwin:This is 2007? Alison Eakle:Oh yeah, don't worry about it, Chris. But she was incredible. I mean, she was an incredible talent. She just was sort of like had not kind of embraced that part of the job and was just deep in the creative. I mean, again, I got to meet so many impactful, incredible filmmakers, like Calvin Kennedy, we had four movies that we're marketing. It was a real learning curve for the almost two years I did it. And that classic, first Hollywood job, like don't screw up that phone call from Scott Rudin or whatever it is. Like there were those moments consistently. And I was scared out of my wits until I wasn't. And eventually I was just like, I would see the kids in their suits come in from Yale to take my job since I was just a temp and interview and I was like, "No, no, no, no, fuck it. I'm going to keep this job." It almost became like a challenge to myself. Alison Eakle:And I think being able to stick it out and succeed there, even though I didn't want to do marketing, and on that desk is where I realized I never have time to write and I'm never making time. And people who really want to be writers, they make time. They get up at 6:00 AM and write for two hours before their desk job. And I was not doing that. So I just realized I think I found out there was a thing called development, which is basically what I loved about writing most was workshops like working with writers, not being the writer and started to try to think about how to make that transition. Chris Erwin:Got it. Look, I hear this from a lot of people who work at the agencies like pretty early on is that it's really exciting in the beginning, but it's also painful, the work, the stress, a lot of bad bosses, it turns people out and they leave Hollywood. But when you were there, did it feel like you're just getting more excited, but you're like, but I'm not in the role that I want. Like what you just described as like, I want to get into development. So I feel good about the industry, this is hard, but the stars in my eyes, they're still real and they're not going away. Is that right? Alison Eakle:Yes. I think I am at some level, again, like a pragmatist. There's always competing parts, right? There's the creative and the pragmatist and the pragmatists was like, you have a job that pays really well in a business that doesn't, you have overtime, you have health insurance, I was just like, keep doing this. And again, I love the challenge of a professor or a boss that's incredibly difficult to impress. So I love that challenge. And I learned a ton because honestly the biggest lesson of marketing is like, don't create something you don't know how to approach an audience with. You need to know who this movie or this show is for and obviously there's always a pleasant surprise when it kind of broadens out past that, but that was really drilled and it's like, what does the poster look like? Alison Eakle:Because we would get scripts and movies that we had to market. And we would look at each other what is this about? How did you sell this movie? And I will not name names, but it was incredible to see it from that other end. And that was the boss. She was incredible in teaching me like Alison, as an assistant in Hollywood, your job is to assume no one else is doing their job correctly, which is a terrible place to live for a long time in terms of that is so fear-based. But it is also a way to I learned how to anticipate what could go wrong or how to kind of shore up and idiot proof certain processes in a way that I do things still serves me to today. Chris Erwin:Hey listeners, this is Chris Irwin, your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work and it also really supports what we do here. All right. That's it everybody, let's get back to the interview. Two points that I think are interesting. Alison, you described as being able to anticipate what could go wrong or sit at corners, we had Chas Lacaillade interviewed on this podcast, he now runs a digital talent management company called BottleRocket, but he said the same exact thing he was at ICM. He's like, "The one takeaway I have from that is you can always anticipate what's going to go wrong in a deal, a conversation, a client meeting," and he found that very valuable. Chris Erwin:The second thing I think that you said, Alison, that I really like is how to market and how to approach an audience. So I think today where media has changed, where they used to be fixed supply, if you can get theatrical distribution, you're going to win. If you're going to get on like a TV network, you're going to win. But with the internet, there is so much content out there even if you're like putting up content on Netflix or you're putting up content on YouTube or in some like digital, native way, your content has to stand down. And the marketing campaign that wraps the actual content itself, how you speak and engage and excite your audience, that is where the winners are today. So the fact that you have that lens from your history, I think is really interesting. Alison Eakle:You put it better than I ever could, but that all tracks. Yes, that feels right. Chris Erwin:So you realize you're not having the amount of time you need for writing, so you've got to change it up. So where do you go? Alison Eakle:I saw a job opportunity to assist the director of production and development at Paramount Vantage. What I'll never forget there was the current assistant had put out a job posting and how this works in Hollywood, for anyone who's listening and doesn't know, is you'll see jobs on things called tracking boards or emailed chains basically. But they always say, "No phone calls, please. Do not call me. Just email your resume." Right? And I was like, okay, this job is on the same lot, I'm going to call him. And I did. And he was so incredibly lovely. Colin Conley, he's still in the business, an incredible manager. And I just called him. And I was like, "Look, I did not come up through the agency. I don't have the required experience, but I swear to God, the desk I'm on is harder than any agency desk you can imagine. And I'll tell you why if you meet me for like 15 minutes." Alison Eakle:So we did, we literally met in the middle of the lot at Paramount. And he was like, "You know what? I think my boss would like you." And he was leaving to go work at the Sundance Institute, fucking cool as hell. And I tried not to be too intimidated. And I met his boss and loved her. And the only weird thing about that experience was when I did get the job, three weeks into it, most of Paramount Vantage was let go. They were downsizing all indie studios at that point. And I was like, oh my God, I just took a pay cut and a huge risk to take this job and now I'm going to get fired. That was all that went through my head is like, we're all going to get laid off, but I don't know what happened, but for eight months, some of us still hung on. Alison Eakle:And I learned so much about future film development from my boss, Rachel. And then we were all let go. Then it really did. The hammer came down in July of 2009. John Lynch left as the head of the studio of Vantage was done. And another colleague of mine who used to be at Vantage got me my next job just assisting a production exec at Sony Pictures, Elizabeth Kentiling, who was incredible. And the experiences were so different because at Vantage, I learned a ton about development, but we never got to make anything because essentially it was like, you already saw the writing on the wall. You knew it was only a matter of time to some extent that you were going to be shut down, which I've never had an experience like that since. It is sort of freeing, because I was just like, well, I'm going to learn and do as much as I can while I'm here. Alison Eakle:And then at Sony, it was the opposite where it was like, there was development happening on scripts so I was there, but my boss was making movies. Like I always watched her oversee Social Network and Girl With the Dragon Tattoo and got really a firsthand view of like how that side of things works when stuff is going. So it was incredibly valuable, but the whole time I'm sitting there thinking, okay, I'm still an assistant, I'm 30... How old was I at that point? Probably 31. Again, wasn't acting, wasn't writing, wasn't really an exec. I would go to drinks with other assistants and them not knowing how old I was would be like, "Oh man, if I'm still an assistant at 30, kill me." Chris Erwin:It's interesting you're saying this because I was reading an interview that was done with you. Asked like what's the worst advice that you can receive or that you have received? And you said something along the lines like, oh, if you're like an assistant or haven't figured out your career in Hollywood by the time you're 30, it's over. And that's BS. That's not true. And so I think this is clearly where that's coming from. Alison Eakle:Oh yeah. And trust me in the moment I was like, maybe it is true. Like I'm not impervious to insecurities. 100% I was like, I've given all this up, I've left my family, I've moved to LA, did I make a terrible choice? Is this right? But there is such a thing where you just got to stick it out and you keep learning and try to keep growing and then the next opportunity will find you. I totally flunked out on my first creative executive interview in the Future World. And I just was like, oh man, this other junior exec at the movie studio got me this opportunity and I just said stupid shit and I blew it. But then a friend of mine from my Paramount Vantage days, a friend who had worked at Comedy Central while we were doing the Comedy Central branded movies and I really loved, was like, "My old boss from Comedy Central is starting a company for Ellen Degenerates, would you ever want to go be the assistant/exec?" Alison Eakle:And it was primarily television, both scripted and unscripted, not movies, not the big sexy thing at that time that I was still like, no, no, no, you got to work in movies. But I was like, I fucking love television. I raised myself on television. Let me tell you, I jumped at the chance. And again, I was still answering phones at that point technically, but I was like a coordinating manager. So I got to be in the meetings and watch how it happened and take meetings of my own. Chris Erwin:This is A Very Good Production, that's the name of the company? Alison Eakle:Yes. That's A Very Good Production. Chris Erwin:Okay. Alison Eakle:And look, I probably did that classic thing that I think a lot of women do where I didn't think I would feel ready to go from assistant to just exec. That is where I second guessed myself a bit. And so I loved that idea of like a hybrid opportunity, but I also couldn't have learned from anyone better than Lauren Carrao as we were building that company from the ground up with the deal at Warner Brothers. Chris Erwin:Got it. Wow. So Alison, I want to get into now your rise at Shondaland, a company that you joined back in 2013 and where you're still at today and interesting juxtaposition. So I interview a mix of technology and E-commerce, but also media executives on this podcast. A lot of the technology executives I interview, their career rise starts a lot earlier, right? It's like the difference. But in media, a lot of the people that I've interviewed, it takes a bit longer. You're joining Shondaland I think in your early 30s, but you've had an amazing run over the past almost a decade. So I'm curious, how did you first end up there? Alison Eakle:Truly going back to my doomed, but learned a lot moments of Paramount Vantage, it was my boss there, Rachel Eggebeen. She was the first kind of creative executive that Shonda and her longtime creative and producing partner, Betsy Beers, my other boss brought on and into the company when they'd had their deal through ABC. They'd been making Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice and a few other pilots that had knocked on to series. But I believe as Rachel came on board, they were making the Scandal pilot. They had expanded the company and around the time that I was ready to move on from a very good production in terms of trying to get kind of my first either producing credits or full exec job, whatever that next move was going to be for me, I reached out to Rachel and I said, "What do you think I should consider? You're one of my favorite bosses, favorite people, favorite friends, what do you think I should do?" Alison Eakle:And she said, "Well, interestingly, Shonda and Betsy are thinking about expanding the work they're doing and hiring another person. And your background in comedy could be incredibly useful and important part of the mix given they're starting to do more of that." When I came on board, they'd already been developing a pilot with Issa Rae, actually for ABC. Ultimately didn't move forward, but was one of my first experiences as an exc. It got to be me and Issa Rae in a room, sitting on the floor, working through a pilot and I will never forget it. And it was incredible. And I loved every second of working with her. Chris Erwin:Speaking of Issa Rae, so I joined the whole YouTube revolution in 2013. And I remember we were launching different like digitally native verticals. Issa Rae came in and pitched a show with her creative partner. Alison Eakle:Oh, no way. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Early days. And now look at her, she's a phenomenal. You shouldn't make a fuss. Alison Eakle:Talk about a rise. I feel silly calling what I've experienced duress in light of Issa. I mean, just and so earned and so deserve. Like with the pilot was called, I Hate LA Dudes. And that was very much my mindset while we were working on it. But I would meet my husband just a few months after we finished up with that and I reversed that decision. No, it was great to kind of come on board. And look, I was, again, nervous, that imposter syndrome thing is hard to shake. I'm like, it's my first executive job, I am a fan of these shows of Grey's Anatomy and Scandal. Scandal season one and like half of season two had aired when I started. And that jump is a big jump in Hollywood when you're first like really not answering the phones anymore. I didn't have an assistant, but I wasn't an assistant. Alison Eakle:And I got to develop like my first comedy from the ground up with these writers Petrossian Goldstein that came partly from like an original idea I had just by like being like, fuck, okay, what do I want to see in the world that I don't see? What do I want to watch on TV that's in my life and I don't see reflected? And we came up with this idea of what if your friend was dating someone terrible, just absolutely the worst. You wouldn't want to spend brunch with this person. And then they show up one day early in the dating and they're like, "We're having a baby." And I had pitched this idea of like, that would be the friend groups worst nightmare, but a lot of it would be not so much about that girl who kind of enters the group, but really about you and what you're going through emerging as a group of like 20 somethings into your 30s. Alison Eakle:And then when we pitched this idea to these other writers, they had had an idea of what had happened in their friend group, which is one of their really close friends had passed away. And that guy's parents had sort of become the parents of their friend group. And we wound up having this incredible meeting where we realized we could merge these ideas. And it was just one of those first experiences where Betsy and I were in the thick of it and I realized like, oh, this is it, this is what I wanted this to feel like and be like. I love the idea that I can have an idea, writers can make it better and bring their own experience to it and then I get to watch it just evolve. Alison Eakle:And it was such a well-received comedy pilot that at the very last minute we did not get to make it, but it was a great first experience in that first year at that company of like, A, I love this, B, I love why I'm working with on these projects and C, maybe I'm not terrible at it. Like that first moment you're like, oh, I should keep doing this. Which I think a lot of people don't talk about because I think you're supposed to pretend that you're just like a girl boss from day one and always had the confidence, but no, I mean, it truly took going through that first experience to be like, okay, I deserve to be in the room. Chris Erwin:Amazing. So very early on, everything felt right to you. This is the right team, this is the right role and did you get a sense that it's like, hey, this is a company I can be at for a really long time. Alison Eakle:I was like, hey, I hope they'll have me for a long time. Again, like even with the successes, I think there's always a moment where you're just like, what's the next thing I can do? Like I want to continue to earn this spot or earn their respect. And the other thing I just sort of lucked into was that at that same time that we were doing that comedy, we had six other drama projects in development, how it works as you sell ideas in pitches to the networks and then the writers write the scripts and around Christmas time, these networks were just in the network side, they would decide which ones they were actually going to shoot. And the one that they decided to shoot was How To Get Away With Murder. And so then even though my comedy pilot, that experience hadn't borne fruit in terms of being shot, I got to see that show be born and come to life. Alison Eakle:The other thing that happened in those first eight months I was there was that Rachel did leave Shondaland to go to another job at Fox 21, which is a studio. And again, I was terrified because the person who brought me in was gone and I was still getting my sea legs, but Betsy and Shonda were incredible. And I learned so much from them. And I got to all of a sudden just not limit myself to being like, hey, I'm the person who's here to do some comedy and I got to experience what it is to develop dramas and realized I loved that too. Chris Erwin:You mentioned it... Again I saw on an interview that you had like a handful of promotions within the first four to five years that you were there. Alison Eakle:Yes. Chris Erwin:So what did you feel that you were doing at the company that started to really stand out and have you get noticed? Alison Eakle:I was kind of the only one for a while. I feel like I don't know what I would necessarily pinpoint. I'd be interested to hear Betsy and Shonda say it. I think one of the things was not only did I have the things that I would get excited about and bring to the table, but I think that Shonda's excitement and Betsy's passion are really contagious. Right? I think very early on I realized, okay, they have fucking genius ideas. I can execute that. I can take that. I can run with it. I can get some progress going. I can find the writer. I can work on the vision of the writer. I also loved the fact that we had this incredible community of writers that had come up on all the Shondaland shows. So I think I really just threw myself fully into trying to make projects with them work and support them. Alison Eakle:And I think there's also a little bit of magic sometimes when taste and instincts lineup, the rest of it is sort of just to do the work, especially those early days. To this day, even after I've had a kid, which we'll talk about, I've never not worked on weekends, I've never not worked at night. Like even when I'm not working and I'm using air quotes, my brain is constantly going in terms of how to fix issues or how to approach strategically certain projects. And I think that they must have responded to it. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Because I think to you it was clear as it's not just work, this is a passion. It's like part of your essence. It's having like a creative mind wanting to support the creative community. I think like you were saying with Shonda and Betsy, you have this reputation where you could take an idea that they have and really nurture it and build it and make it even more special. So there's this trust that they're bestowing on you, but they really appreciate new ideas that you bring to the table. So then, okay, there's an exciting moment. You're there for around four years, 2017, then there's the big announcement that Shonda is leaving ABC for Netflix and what was reported to be, I think, the range is up to $150 million deal. What was that like? Was that something... Had you been working on that for a while? Was that something that you knew of? Was that something that was just dropped on you? What was that like to receive internally? Alison Eakle:I did know a little bit before the announcement came, I just was over the moon excited in terms of it being such a new learning opportunity for me, right? I know Shonda and Betsy had their excellent reasons for making that transition at that time when they did. Strictly speaking from my experience of it, I was just so interested in how different that could be, what restrictions would be lifted when you suddenly don't have to make television for network to fit that 42 minutes of a drama episode to kind of deal with broadcast standards and practices. But also just the idea that I think once we went to Netflix, it probably did also, at least in my opinion, as I spoke to people in the industry, it started to broaden their ideas of the kind of shows we made sometimes, sometimes not. Sometimes they'd still come to us and be like, "Here's Grey's Anatomy, but in a funeral home." Like they would still do that too, but there was a lot of people understanding that now we were going to do TV and movies. Alison Eakle:We could do comedies. We wanted to do genre. Like I think, especially by the time we were able to announce those first things we were working on kind of a year into the deal, it did make people understand that while they often thought of us in terms of, I will use the quote, sexy soap or serialize procedurals, the ambitions were so much bigger than that. And to get ready because we had a lot of things coming that you would not be able to do on network. And that was really liberating and exciting. Chris Erwin:Did everyone feel that same way? Was there anyone internal on the team or within your writer community that was like, "You know what? I want to work on network programming and going to a streamer is not a place I want to be." Alison Eakle:If that was happening, it was not something that I was privy to or that people were coming to talk to me about at all. Everybody was like, "I can't believe this. I'm so excited." And we're moving into new offices and all. It was just felt like a real thrum of excitement. And look, I think to this day, there are still writers who appreciate the consistency of a network job, but the whole business has changed. This is a conversation for another time in that residuals are not the same anymore. And there are so few shows like Grey's and Station 19 that can go that many episodes a season. Whereas writer you know you're booked kind of like August to April or whatever it is, I do think some writers probably miss that and will gravitate towards that kind of structure, that storytelling, all of that. But I didn't experience anyone being like, "Ooh, Netflix," at all. Chris Erwin:Okay. And maybe look, I think there was a lot of excitement at the moment. Was this announced right after Ryan Murphy's deal? I think he announced like a $300 million deal, was that- Alison Eakle:We were the first. Chris Erwin:You were the first. Alison Eakle:Shondaland was the first. Yeah. That was the first deal for Shondaland was the first of these big star producer deals. And I think Ryan Murphy, Kenya Barris, a few others came in like quick succession, but it was the first big announcement like this. Chris Erwin:Clearly it's working, right? So there's the big 2020 hit with Bridgerton. And then recent news, there's a re-up between Atlanta and Netflix are reported or confirmed or reported up to 400 million, but what was it like in that moment when Bridgerton which I think is the number one performing show on Netflix today, when that hit and your team started to get some of the success reporting, what was that feeling like? And were you involved in that show at all? Alison Eakle:Oh yeah. So I am a co-EP on the show and moving forward into seasons two, three, and four, I'll be working on it. It honestly was something where I still remember the day that Shonda was like, "There are these romance novels that are absolutely incredible. They would make a great show." I will be the first to admit I was like, "Romance novels, like grocery store paperback romance novels?" The genius that she is she's like, "Just read them. Just read one. Read The Duke and I." Which is the first book and is what season one is based on, the Simon and Daphne's story. And I read it in like one sitting, definitely started blushing about like 80 pages in for sure, but immediately I was like, oh, I get it. I get it. I understand the conceit of how this works for many seasons. I get why there's such a huge under-serviced fandom of this material. And they have not gotten to see some of their favorite stories brought to the screen and shot. Alison Eakle:It was so smart because she knew that people would clamor for that. And that audience had just not gotten to see those characters come to life, but also that there would be a broader reach. And also I think that it was such a surreal experience for me. I was incredibly pregnant. It was Christmas time. We had done post-production in COVID entirely from our homes remotely. Every music spotting session would be inimitable, Kris Bowers. Like all of it had been done remotely, all the posts. So it was like being in this kind of strange bubble and just sitting there as the holiday started just wondering how it would be received. And I don't think I could have ever anticipated what a mark on the culture it would have. Chris Erwin:I didn't even start thinking about the opportunity to romance space until Sarah Penna, who is one of the co-founders of the Big Frame where I was at right after school. And she had an idea that I think she's still working on with Lisa Berger called Frolic Media focused on, I think it's in a podcast network and digital video programming for female romcom romance enthusiast. And when she started telling me some of the numbers of how big this demo is, I was like hearing the success of Bridgerton, I am not surprised. So a new Netflix deal's announced and here's some exciting things like a focus of film, games, VR, branding, merchandising. There's a larger team from Bridgerton Ball that's coming up in November. So it's really extending your work streams and creating an audience experiences into a lot of new channels. Where is Shondaland today and where is it headed? Alison Eakle:The other side of the company that is the digital side, that is the podcast, the website, whatever shape and form this gaming and VR enterprise is going to take to it is incredibly exciting and I think a huge part of how my perspective on my job has shifted. And look, I've gotten to experience people often say like, "How have you been at a company for eight years?" And I was like, "This company is always evolving. The opportunities are always evolving. The work we're doing is always shifting and changing and growing." And it's part of why I was so excited to work with Shonda and Betsy in the beginning because I knew they had these bigger plans, right? World domination through incredible storytelling, very appealing, but I'm just really always trying to think to myself too synergy. Alison Eakle:Are there opportunities of things that we're working on that could translate to the podcast space or there could be a great story on the website about it and thinking more actively how do I talk to them about that and tell them about it before it's too far down the pike or vice versa, what are they working on that could be the next great show for Netflix or first documentary came out right before the holidays as well around Thanksgiving, Dance Dreams: Hot Chocolate Nutcracker about the life and legacy of Debbie Allen as seen through her kind of like planning and staging this incredible her version of the Nutcracker? Alison Eakle:So we have a real hunger to do unscripted, both doc series, lifestyle, reality shows, things like that, the right kind of thing for the right kind of audience, the thing that we think will appeal to our fans and the people who love our material, but also Inventing Ana is going to be out soon, which is Shonda's next show that she created based on the incredible cut article from Jessica Pressler, how Anna Delvey tricked New York's party people about the Soho grifter, who basically found a way to make all the finance bros in New York and all the art people and all the fancy pants people in New York who believed she was a German heiress. An incredible kind of fake it till you make it American dream story from a very slanted interesting perspective. Alison Eakle:So I'm really excited for that show to hit and to launch and for people to see that it's a limited. That's like the next big thing on top of the fact that we have announced through Bridgerton season four to really get to service the Bridgerton's children's love stories. We've got a lot of story to tell. And then Shonda's next project is a project based on the life of young Queen Charlotte, who obviously is someone we featured heavily in the Bridgerton series. So that's some of the scripted coming down the line. We do have feature films in development. We have a lot of different genre TV shows that I don't think people would be necessary... Again, always trying to broaden the idea of what people think of as a Shondaland show, which is just incredible unexpected storytelling that has an incredibly human lens. A lot of different things coming down. Chris Erwin:All this program is going to be exclusive to Netflix, is that right? Alison Eakle:Yes. Exclusively in Netflix. Chris Erwin:Looking at the Shondaland website yesterday, and I saw the 2017 partnership with Hearst where you've launched a lifestyle website. You have this January, 2020 audio partnership with iHeart, where I think you're creating companion content to promote some of your series, but also maybe seeding some new IP, which is definitely a theme that we talk a lot about here at RockWater. But these are divisions that are separate from your purview, but you want to collaborate and you want to work together. And I think that'd be an awesome thing to do more of in the future. I'd love to see that. Alison Eakle:Oh yeah. It's a top-down mentality the idea of like, no, no, no, you guys, you're not just making content for Netflix and you're not just making content for Hearst to iHeart, this is Shondaland. This is a united family of people figuring out how to tell stories best. Chris Erwin:Last question, Alison, before we get to the rapid fire round. So you are a mother of one who is five months old. Alison Eakle:Yes. Chris Erwin:When you say you work nights, you work weekends, how does that change with a kid at home not just in terms of like time capacity, but also just how you think about your programming and where you want content to go in the world considering that you're raising someone new in it? Alison Eakle:That's a great question. I think I'm so in it right now. It's all still so new. I don't know yet the impact it'll have on me. And look, animation both for adults and children is something we've talked about a lot and gotten excited about that kind of programming. I'll be honest, I binge-watched the Babysitters Club with that best friend, Ashley, who we moved out here from New York together. I think there's incredible content for kids. I don't think my brain has fully processed yet how having this child is going to impact my creative work, but I do think it has changed how I work and yes, I just have less time right now because every minute I'm not with him, I inevitably am wondering, am I missing it? Am I missing something? Right? But I also realize there's a lot of time that he sleeps, not in the beginning, but now there is. Alison Eakle:And it's interesting how I think I used to be a real... I do get up very early with him and I do do great work in the morning, I feel, but I've really also become that person who eight o'clock hits and I take a minute for myself, but I do think to myself, okay, I have quiet. I have a couple of hours of quiet before I hit the, hey, how am I going to use this time? So I think I've just gotten smarter about time management and realized that like I can be sitting there rocking my baby, playing out, what kind of thoughts or how we might re-break a pilot in my head. I've just gotten a little bit more nimble in terms of how I use the time I have. Chris Erwin:I like that. And kind of what you are saying, Alison, reminds me of like the classic high school Adagio. If you have a really busy schedule, like a bunch of high school sports and everything, it just forces you to be more productive to get your work done in the time that you have and you're better. And then second, I think it's this beautiful new moment in your life that's giving you incredible new fulfillment and appreciation for what matters and it's a shock of the system. And I think shocks and changes are good to see things in different ways and that's good for creativity. You've had an amazing rise, who knows where you're going to go? Alison Eakle:Who knows? Chris Erwin:I'll close this out a quick interjection for me before rapid fire. Alison, known you for a long time, but admittedly have not been in close touch in recent years. So it's been exciting that we can come together I think at a dinner that I threw a couple of years ago, but also through this podcast. And I think just hearing your story, what I love and what feels so special is I'm hearing that there was no fear of trying things, of experimenting, putting yourself out there and following your heart. There was moments where like, look, growing up in Rumson where we were, your parents from Wall Street, I ended up going to Wall Street. Like that's what I was inspired to do. And you, I think you said, "No, there's something else that I want to do and give it a go." And then you went to Georgetown, you thought you were going to go down the political science path, but then you had that amazing class and you went with that. You trusted your gut. Chris Erwin:And I think you being able to listen to yourself and set up a very exciting career for you and an ability to do programming that's really a meaningful impact on people's lives and look at the success of Bridgerton and more to come. So it's really fun to see this journey and reflect on it. And I can't wait until we do the second podcast, which is like on this next page. Alison Eakle:Well, thank you. And thank you for having me on too. And also right back at you, it's watching an evolution of a career that's not in Hollywood always fascinates me a lot more than even watching the stuff inside the industry. I love everything that you are doing and juggling right now too. Chris Erwin:Appreciate that. All right. So rapid fire. Here's the rules. Six questions, short answers. It could be maybe one sentence or maybe just one or two words. Do you understand the rules? Alison Eakle:I mean, I'm a wordy mofo, but I will try to keep it to the one sentence or the one word. Chris Erwin:Okay, here we go. Proudest life moment. Alison Eakle:Navigating the return to work after having my son and not absolutely losing my mind. Chris Erwin:Got it. What do you want to do less of in 2021. Alison Eakle:Judge people. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do more of? Alison Eakle:Acts of service. I feel like I got away from that during COVID. Yes, acts of service. Chris Erwin:I like that. One to two things drive your success. Alison Eakle:As you said, willingness to try things and to experiment. And I think also a willingness to really listen to people and figure out what they want. Chris Erwin:What is your advice for media execs going into the back half of this year and into 2022. Alison Eakle:Now that I have a kid and less time than ever, I'm all about essentialism. And I think people have to remember that sometimes less is more, less is more. That's what I'll say. See, trying to be shot. Private is the sour word. Chris Erwin:Saying less is more and trying to do it in short with fewer words. Got it. Considering your parents entreprene

Guest: B. And Her BooksTwitter: @bandherbooks https://twitter.com/bandherbooksInstagram: @b.andherbooks https://www.instagram.com/b.andherbooks/Recording engineer and occasional provider of book answers:Jess a Flerken (@ladyofcheese https://twitter.com/LadyOfCheese)Sign up for the newsletter list to get the PRINTABLE READING LIST from this episode:https://www.subscribepage.com/m4c2v7_inst_copyThe printable reading list includes every book mentioned in this episode plus books from categories that had to be cut for time, including: kick-ass heroines, most over-the-top sex scenes, no on-page sex, and more!NOTES:Jess’s Write This Book - I will be trademarking Shelf Lovelies(WTB Inspiration: https://video.bonappetit.com/series/gourmet-makes)Podcast Episodes Mentioned:Boobies & Noobies with Kelly Reynolds:Andrea on Boobies and Noobies: The 8th Day of Boobsmas: https://boobiepodcast.podbean.com/e/regifted-boobsmas-8/Stocking Stuffers episode Boobsmas Day 1: https://boobiepodcast.podbean.com/e/stocking-stuffers-boobsmas-1/WhoamanceHummingbird Episode: https://www.whoamancepodcast.com/episodes/2019/12/17/episode-70-triage-trois-hummingbird-by-lavyrle-spencerRombkpod episodes with disability recommendations:Episode 105: http://lustandfoundreads.com/rombkpod/ep-105/Episode 106: http://lustandfoundreads.com/rombkpod/ep-106/Episode 107: http://lustandfoundreads.com/rombkpod/ep-107/Episode 108: http://lustandfoundreads.com/rombkpod/ep-108/Learning the TropesEpisode with Sarah MacLean, “The Gorilla Twins”: Lorraine Heath: https://learningthetropes.podbean.com/e/the-earl-takes-all-by-lorraine-heath-w-sarah-maclean-episode-48/Wicked WallflowersMia Hopkins episode: https://wickedwallflowersclub.simplecast.com/episodes/mia-67843607Pinterest:Fainting couch romance novels: https://www.pinterest.com/eagabri/romance-novel-covers-with-fainting-couches/All B’s Pinterest boards: https://www.pinterest.com/eagabri/Miscellaneous:B’s neighbor: Liz Lincoln https://lizlincoln.com/Chuck Tingle: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27804008-oppressed-in-the-butt-by-my-inclusive-holiday-coffee-cupsContributors:@Has_bookpushers, Arnold The Scottish Hedgehog, Jess (Wander Awhile), Amanda (Spaamanda_4), Charlotte (@romansedegare), Esme Brett (Feminist_Romance), HEA or GTFO, Kelly Reynolds (@BoobiesPodcast), Bookish Kelly (bookish.com), Marisa (@marisaelainegettas), Jayswell, Lara Van Lelyveld, Kini Allen, Amanda Ball, Angeleke Kaldis, Nathan Burgoine, Angie Girl, Lust n Found reads, Leigh Kramer, Christina.us.uk, Laura Yamin, HEA Apologist, Ms. Bug Bug, Jess (JessReadinBooks), Megan Erikson, Hannah, Catherine (@CatSteinBooks), Renee, Ariana, Nancy (Love.Reading.With.Nancy), Whoamance, Lauren M. Hae, Adele Buck, Jes (YesMissJes), Sofia (SofiainBookland), Queerly Chaotic M (@Mx_m_reads), Maida Malby, Daisy Blaine, Weendizzle, Tej (@Readaholic19), Corey Alexander (TGStoneButch), Suzanne (Cerestheories), Amber (PeskyNoodles), Emma Love, RamblingoutLoud, JL Peridot, Quick N Dirty Romance, Megan Bate, Sarah Penna, Michelle Mars.---Shelf Love is part of the Frolic Podcast Network.

cARTel has done many things in the almost-decade that they've been shaping the experiential arts scene in LA. They've hosted fort parties, galaxy art shows with Bill Nye, giant sponsored activations, and been served a cease and desist by Coachella. The latter comes midway through the story of one of the largest and longest running DIY festivals in SoCal, fka Brokechella. Now called BrokeLA, it opens next month and has partnered with Spaceland Presents and the Regent for Anna's first year as the company's CEO. We dive deep into such an evolution, and also nerd tf out on some permitting stuff. This episode is a creative producer's playground.   Permitting survey: bit.ly/permitsurvey http://www.wearecartel.org/ http://brokelafest.com/   11:40 - intro ends/interview begins   12:10 - How did you find your way into permitting?   13:15 - Intro to Anna    13:24 - Did you come from the aesthetic side?   14:10 - Anna talks about cARTel, acting, staging and then combining them together.   15:05 - Visual art    15:55 - Anna buying miller highlife at 19 and dropping the glass bottles from her balcony    16:15 - Anna talks about Theater and the US Davis theater and dance program http://arts.ucdavis.edu/theatre-and-dance   17:05 - Why didn't you go to Berkeley instead of UC Davis?   17:55 - Bay to LA hate   19:11 - How was it being in a college town?   20:02 - Do they have production classes at Davis? How did you find yourself on the production side?   20:50 - http://www.deafwest.org/   22:00 - https://www.broadway.com/shows/spring-awakening-dw/ http://time.com/4062110/spring-awakening-broadway-deaf-west/   23:45 - Anna talks about her intern work at Deaf West   24:00 - Switched at Birth  http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1758772/   26:00 - Brokechella  https://www.instagram.com/brokelafest http://brokelafest.com   27:41 - Explain what Brokechella / Broke LA is   Check out what LA Weekly has to say about Brokechella:  http://www.laweekly.com/music/broke-la-announces-2017-lineup-with-james-supercave-crnkn-kyle-kinane-7956324   29:56 - Was cARTel still called cARTel at that point?   30:30 - https://www.instagram.com/neginsingh/   30:24 - In ten years what did you picture yourself to be doing?   31:14 - Was there a theater element in Broke Beast?    32:30 - Family Forest Theatrical Event  http://www.laweekly.com/arts/why-cartels-family-forest-theatrical-event-is-las-best-third-date-idea-2372736   34:56 - YOU ARE HERE ll: Shoot a Cop 2013   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0CkCcvorZ4&feature=youtu.be   36:47 - How as this presented? How many people made stuff?   37:38 - Anna talks about Brokechella becoming really successful    40:20 - Do you have specific strategies to be introspective and make sure year by year the event is being honest for the audience?   42:50 - Deviant art https://www.deviantart.com/   45:45 - Jacob talks about how he started as a YouTuber   46:29 - Listen to last seasons episode with Sarah Penna on business, and the economy of online content: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/a-r-t-artists-real-talk/id1159607075?mt=2&i=1000377753292   47:20 - How much has Brokechella grown?   47:30 - What was it at, at year three?   47:56 - When did you start implementing sponsors?    48:33 - Jacob talks about Think Tank being sponsored by Lagunitas and how much they support art events https://lagunitas.com/   49:54 - Anna talks about Lagunitas supporting Brokechella and affiliate shows 49:15 - What kind of questions do you ask vendors on your surveys?   52:28 - Anna talks about asking the musicians what it felt like on their stage and if the production team was responsive   53:40 - Break Bread recap https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CillPgnnQdk   http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/la-et-cm-break-bread-think-tank-photos-20160212-photogallery.html   http://diversionsla.com/think-tank-gallery-break-bread/   http://www.thisiscolossal.com/2016/02/break-bread-cake-room-scott-hove/   53:59 - Scott hove: http://cakefangs.com/ https://www.instagram.com/scotthove   Bakers Son: http://bakers-son.com/ https://www.instagram.com/bakersson   55:50 - Have you had big important people to the fest drop off because they expected it to go in a different direction?    58:59 - Anna talks about lighting installations    1:00:27 - When did you start to transition from purely collective to more corporate structure?    1:01:50 - Sexy Sax Man  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GaoLU6zKaws   1:02:53 - Adopting a business structure   1:05:19 - Oakland Ghost Ship Fire http://www.nydailynews.com/news/oakland-ghost-ship-warehouse-deadly-fire-gallery-1.2901036   1:06:35 - Do you have different verticals or is it all one thing now called cARTel agency?   1:07:12 - Fort exhibit by cARTel (2011)   http://www.laweekly.com/arts/fort-exhibit-by-cartel-at-angel-city-brewing-brings-childhood-fort-building-fantasies-to-life-2371983   http://angelcitybrewery.com/beer/angel-city-lager/   1:09:24 - Galaxy: Science Art Party by cARTel (2012)   https://www.facebook.com/events/289051367880577/   https://www.timeout.com/los-angeles/art/galaxy-science-art-party   1:10:40 - Do you enjoy absorbing the energy of the audience?   1:11:51 - Jacob talks about not being able to chill out at parties    1:13:43 - Oakland Warehouse safety coalition  https://www.facebook.com/OaktownWarehouseCoalition/   1:13:54 - https://vimeo.com/252652909   1:16:23 - Why do permitting at all?   1:20:45 - Los Angeles permitting being disparate    1:24:30 - Westminster** London permitting: https://www.westminster.gov.uk/events-and-filming   1:28:06 - Jacob talks about the cops coming in with squad cars and helicopters crashing an event   1:31:46 - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/48319990/the-living-room-tour-bringing-theater-into-homes   http://laist.com/2012/09/25/cartels_living_room_tour_we_are_gathered_here.php   1:34:00 - Art Walk Wrongful Death Lawsuit Settled   http://www.ladowntownnews.com/news/art-walk-wrongful-death-lawsuit-settled/article_d81bdc70-bc4a-11e3-9828-0019bb2963f4.html   1:46:05 - https://www.timeout.com/los-angeles/things-to-do/popsugar-x-freeform-mermaid-museum   1:46:09 - We couldn’t find any legit baby exorcisms :( please send them to us    1:46:53 - The Happy Place  https://www.happyplace.me/   Candytopia https://www.candytopia.com/   1:47:29 - Dino Nama: https://www.instagram.com/nunquamdormio   1:51:26 - Tommy Honton: http://tommyhonton.com/ http://themuseumofselfies.com/   Tune into A.R.T Artists Real Talk Episode 17 with Tommy Honton https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/a-r-t-artists-real-talk/id1159607075?mt=2&i=1000401724890   1:53:50 - Anna talks about an Immersive project that is in the works– challenging and inverting dreams   1:55:24 - Jacob touches on the theme park industry   1:58:51- Why haven’t you started working in the theme park industry?   2:01:16 - Meow Wolf https://meowwolf.com   Tune into A.R.T Artists Real Talk Episode 16 with Meow Wolf https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/a-r-t-artists-real-talk/id1159607075?mt=2&i=1000405182786   Afterlife with cARTel at Angel City Brewery http://photos.snapfiesta.com/Los-Angeles-Photo-Booth/AFTERLIFE-wcARTel-Angel-City/   2:03:28 - Sleep No More https://mckittrickhotel.com/sleep-no-more/   02:05:00 - Cesar Hawas: https://www.instagram.com/cesarhawas/   Mckittrickhotel:  https://mckittrickhotel.com/sleep-no-more/ https://mckittrickhotel.com/manderley-bar/ https://mckittrickhotel.com/the-heath/ https://mckittrickhotel.com/gallow-green/   Tune into A.R.T Artists Real Talk Episode 18 with Sleep No More https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/a-r-t-artists-real-talk/id1159607075?mt=2&i=1000402299664   2:07:15 - How do you make sure to stay true to learning experiences at your events while also focusing on getting the (at times) nearly impossible stuff done that it takes to throw a party? How do you make sure you have that content in there?   2:08:22 - http://www.boomtownbrew.com/   2:12:10 - Dinosaurus art event by cARTel  http://www.laweekly.com/arts/la-children-drew-imaginary-dinosaurs-then-artists-turned-them-into-awesome-installations-4388699   2:12:15 - Jacob touches on 939 Studio    2:12:55 - Ecoset: http://ecosetconsulting.com/ https://www.facebook.com/ecoset/ https://www.instagram.com/ecoset/ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYGpChIJblwmqAjMwd0yGPA   2:13:51- Burning Man https://burningman.org/   2:14:09 - Overnight festival at Joshua Tree https://www.bigfirefestival.com/ https://www.bigfirefestival.com/faq   2:16:34 - Anna talks about being involved with Burning Man and running shifts   2:16:55 - How does something like Burning Man exist?   2:17:03 - EDC https://lasvegas.electricdaisycarnival.com/ https://twitter.com/EDC_LasVegas   2:22:07 - Stash House Escape House http://www.stashhou.se/   2:24:54 - Have you seen sphere? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120184/   2:25:46 - What do you want in the future for cARTel and Broke La?   2:27:43 - Anna touches on things she wants for the permitting world   2:29:56 - What should people look out for with Broke LA? Why should they go? How can they go?   http://brokelafest.com/ https://www.instagram.com/brokelafest https://twitter.com/RegentTheaterLA   Where to by tickets: https://www.ticketfly.com/purchase/event/1651689?utm_medium=bks&q=6a6c5d00-2bdb-4ac0-a597-96db7c9990d1&p=b629ec49-919a-4622-997e-ac98b1986492&ts=1520976762&c=ticketfly&e=00827a&rt=Safetynet&h=f4bd62d6592781e38f911b53f08f7622   2:31:47 - What makes it different now that you have the Regent for a couple days?   2:33:32 - http://brokelafest.com/ https://www.instagram.com/brokelafest http://www.wearecartel.org/   PERMITTING SURVEY: bit.ly/permitsurvey  

We really want to experiment with the format of this conversational show, and this week our co-host Jacob Patterson sits down for a conversation with two team members. Art Director Dino Nama and Real Talk Research Assistant Madelyn Flores listed a bunch of questions they put together after listening to prior shows and looking over some Think Tank exhibits. Patterson does a hell of a job stumbling through them and only answers like 5% of them in an hour... we also provide a little context for who Think Tank is and where we currently stand in the scheme of things. Enjoy this "behind the scenes" episode and let us know what you think!   0:00- Intro    1:23 - Reflecting on the podcast   2:40 - Jessica Bley  http://instagram.com/Leclaircollection   3:40 - Jacob gets into detail of how he got into the art world   6:15 - Transition to podcast questions    7:27 - When the Think Tank gallery was originally created what was the initial vision for the gallery? has that vision shifted along the way?   7:50 - John kennamann   8:50 - http://breweryartwalk.com   9:20 - https://www.youtube.com/user/swoozie06   11:48 - Adam Bowden: http://instagram.com/adambodenphotography     12:10 - https://www.youtube.com/user/ThinkTankCollective   12:45 - Putting go pros on couches and throwing them off roofs   12:15 - Sarah Penna’s Instagram and Twitter @sarah_penna   15:00 - Jacob explains what the Think Tank Gallery has become   15:40 - Where do you guys see the Think Tank Gallery at in 1 or 2 years? Has the gallery had a steady growth or has there been some set backs along the way? If so, how did you guys knock out those set backs?   16:03 - Jacob under threat of being arrested and went to court for an event   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLiLOKM9IWI   18:25 - Head butting a police captain    21:48 - What is your PR strategy moving forward?   22:50 - Moving out of the current Think Tank Gallery location   23:00 - http://nightonbroadway.la   25:05 - What are you guys defined by?    26:07 - If the Think Tank Gallery has to move locations, what does that mean for you guys?   28:40 - Tune into episode 8 for more on Andrew McGregor and his inspirational missions www.mightkingdrew.com   29:28 - Looking back at episode 1 with Matt Dorado is it possible to make an event or production too simple? What critical details need to be paid attention to in every podcast?   Matt Dorado: www.thedrunkendevil.com   30:00 - What builds a Think Tank production now?   32:45 - Knowing the basics of what can shut down a production   34:00 - What are the philosophies in your life, do they relate to Andrew McGregor’s (episode 8)? www.mightkingdrew.com   36:08 - The idea of an employer vs an employee   37:42 - How does the gallery balance taking on multiple projects at the same time; do you have any tips for the listeners?   38:45 - Separating what is urgent and what is important   41:46 - “The important things can get done before everyone wakes up or after everyone leaves the office.”   44:00 - How have you seen the podcast progress in both technical and artistic terms up to this point?   46:40 - Seth Goden https://twitter.com/ThisIsSethsBlog http://sethgodin.typepad.com   The Time Ferriss Show Ep #177 with Seth Godin http://feeds.feedburner.com/thetimferrissshow   49:00 - How have you focused your energy after the presidential election? Do you mix politics with your work at Think Tank Gallery?   50:50 - The Think Tank stepping out and not being afraid to say things that need to be said   54:45 - The desert with Scott Hove and mushroom trips (hear the full story on episode    55:15 - Kiran Gandhi: http://www.madamegandhi.com/ https://kirangandhi.com https://twitter.com/madamegandhi https://www.instagram.com/madamegandhi/   55:26 - In what ways have you as directors had to exhibit improv skills similar to Jackie’s from Traphouse?   http://www.traphouse.la   57:30 - Jacobs thoughts on having content before sharing and letting it exemplify what it is you do; not gunning for that big break unless its there.   1:02:11 - Next event at Think Tank Gallery Drinkin' Smokin' & West Coastin’ 3/18-4/20 stay updated at http://www.thinktankgallery.org   Where you can find Jacob Patterson: http://www.jpattersonart.com/thinktankgallerycrap http://blog.thinktankgallery.org https://www.instagram.com/jmjpatterson/   

Sarah Penna is one of our most successful and insightful friends, and her newfound motherhood has provided even more insight. She tells us about the challenges of being acquired by Dreamworks and becoming a mother at the same damn time, and drops some priceless knowledge on the reality of online content and marketing. Sarah KILLS it. Don’t sleep on this episode.   3:25 Jacob and Sarah’s relationship       Philip DeFranco 5:13 Big Frame launched       http://www.bigfra.me/ 9:24 Pioneering a business in YouTubers      “Let me take on the nitty gritty… you focus on creative” 10:19 Partnering with Steve Raymond       Digitour - http://www.thedigitour.com/ 12:55 1st YouTuber lost to shooting       A loss of innocence      http://mashable.com/2016/06/11/christina-grimmie-shot-dead-florida/#EqfmbJquzaqG 16:30 “Hey Guys”       Supercuts      https://youtu.be/wtd5J0QPFCo 20:22 Early days of Current      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_TV  21:24 Managing Snooki and Jwoww’s YouTube accounts       Yung Mommy      https://youtu.be/zp5pW-27tJU 24:09 Big Frame/Working with Steve Rayond  33:51 The challenges of working with talent  36:54 Income and opportunities for YouTubers- then and now  38:21 What is YouTube Red?      https://www.youtube.com/red  43:34 “Ive reached the top and had to stop, and that’s what’s bothering me”  52:34 How Vine changed the world of film making  59:27 Selling a company before 30/Becoming a mom  1:09:04 Shay Carl and Tim Ferriss podcast      http://fourhourworkweek.com/2016/06/27/shay-carl/ 1:23:34 What it means to sell a company      Extreme Ownership      https://www.amazon.com/Extreme-Ownership-U-S-Navy-SEALs-ebook/dp/B00VE4Y0Z2 1:38:313 Awestruck- “We like being domestic but we’re not afraid to order takeout”      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCalcFcqOC_UdfxQAPHhwOqg 1:53:34 Why to use an influencer in brand marketing?/Evolution of brand marketing 2:00:59 Sarah’s future in new media   IG and Twitter- @sarah_penna Snapchat- mrspenna

Today, we're tackling impostor syndrome with Sarah Penna, Head of Awestruck, a new network and lifestyle brand from AwesomenessTV. Imposter syndrome may seem simple, but it's about a lot more than feeling like a fraud. Do you find yourself feeling like you know your stuff, but you're always looking over your shoulder? Do you worry others are about to catch up to you? Achieving your dreams doesn't always loosen the pressure valve or stave off FOMO. Few people know this better than Sarah, who built and sold her first business all before she turned 30.

Sarah Penna is the Head of Awestruck, a network and lifestyle brand for millennial moms. Sarah started her career at CurrentTV and then made her way into the YouTube space, working early on with Philip DeFranco. In 2011, Sarah founded talent management company Big Frame with Steve Raymond, which was acquired by AwesomenessTV in April 2014 for $15M. In this episode, Sarah talks about Al Gore’s “rockstar” moments at CurrentTV, her first encounter with popular YouTube personalities, and what motivated her to launch Big Frame, one of the first talent management firms for digital influencers. We also hear about Sarah’s journey as an entrepreneur, from picking the right co-founder to dealing with the “trough of sorrow” and ultimately going through diligence to sell the company. Hosts: Jackie Koppell and James Creech ABOUT THE SHOW All Things Video is a podcast dedicated to uncovering the past and charting the future of the online video ecosystem. Listen to interviews with founders, executives, and thought leaders from the world’s leading video networks and engage in thought-provoking debates about the key issues shaping the next generation of entertainment. From the short-form content revolution to the rise of multi-channel networks (MCNs) and the fragmentation of video viewership in an always-on world, All Things Video reveals the key trends and insights from the world of digital video. Subscribe for new episodes and updates! ABOUT THE HOSTS Jackie Koppell is a digital media consultant and the Founder of Pinnacle, a dinner and event series for leaders and visionaries in the entertainment industry. Prior to Pinnacle, Jackie served as the Head of Talent at AwesomenessTV. She is also the creator and host of the political satire show Newsy News. James Creech is an entrepreneur focused on technology, online video, and digital media. He is the Co-Founder & CEO of Paladin Software, the premier technology provider for the world's leading video networks and next-generation media companies. OUR SPONSOR This episode is brought to you by Epidemic Sound, the company reimagining music licensing for the digital age. Epidemic’s library contains tens of thousands of tracks that you can license a la carte or on a subscription basis. Unlike other music licensing companies, Epidemic Sound owns its entire catalogue and makes tracks available via one straightforward license to cover all your needs, worldwide and in perpetuity – no more headaches around usage reporting, performance royalties, or murky rights ownership. It’s better for the artists and better for you, the creator. So whatever your music needs, www.epidemicsound.com has got you covered! --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Sarah Penna is a veteran of the digital production space having held senior roles at Current TV, MWG Media, & DeFranco Inc. Drawing from her brand management and production experience, Sarah co- founded Big Frame, a media company and talent management firm in Los Angeles, and has overseen the careers of several successful online video creators. Series: "Innovator Stories: Creating Something from Nothing" [Business] [Show ID: 24430]

Sarah Penna is a veteran of the digital production space having held senior roles at Current TV, MWG Media, & DeFranco Inc. Drawing from her brand management and production experience, Sarah co- founded Big Frame, a media company and talent management firm in Los Angeles, and has overseen the careers of several successful online video creators. Series: "Innovator Stories: Creating Something from Nothing" [Business] [Show ID: 24430]