Podcasts about mcns

Noah sits down with longtime collaborator, Matt from FTI Studios, to talk about our respective relaunches, MCNs, LARPing as content creators, working with other creators, and more. Check out FTI here: https://www.instagram.com/fromtheinsidestudios?igsh=cGo1NDRxeWJsb3di

What makes a top live commerce host or KOL (Key Opinion Leader)? Is it their appearance, emotional intelligence, talent, or training? Or are these just the bare minimum requirements? Our team visited the top three Multi-Channel Networks (MCNs) in China last week (as part of our MW Immersion: Live Commerce), uncovering the secrets behind their success in such a competitive landscape. With millions of aspiring KOLs, how does one truly stand out and become the best of the best? Tune in as we dive into what MCNs are doing to nurture talent, as well as the innovative business strategies they are exploring to grow without over-relying on KOLs.  This episode also distills eight key learnings from our immersion, touching on diverse topics from the rise of AI hosts and sustained platform investments to leveraging China's robust supply chain for live commerce.  Featured materials:  MW Immersions: Live Commerce [Hangzhou, May 2024], Momentum Works  Who is Temu?, Momentum Works  Is MCN a good business model?, The Impulso Podcast Our learnings from visiting top MCNs in China, The Impulso Podcast

From leveraging top Key Opinion Leaders (KOLs) like Luo Yonghao at BeFriends, to signing up celebrities at YoWant, MCNs are employing various strategies to stand out. But it's not just about the hosts; MCNs are also exploring other diverse approaches, from studios to real-store experiences, to differentiate themselves and stay competitive.   And in this dynamic industry, every detail matters, from the critical role of hosts in driving sales to the meticulous operational details to the real-time decision-making during live streams.    Join us as we explore the MCN landscape, from business strategies to operational intricacies, including:  Is MCN a good business model? What are the different business models of MCNs? How is it like to actually run a MCN?   Featured materials:  Most unfortunate entrepreneur's first live streaming experience, on TikTok, TheLowDown How did KFC sell 190m cups of coffee in China?, TheLowDown How did this company reach $280m sales in Live commerce?, TheLowDown Why you should join MW Live Commerce immersion to Hangzhou, TheLowDown Momentum Works Immersion: Live Commerce [Hangzhou edition]

Dear listeners, get ready for an encore as we revisit some of our favorite episodes from the year! The digital economy has created many jobs previously unheard of. In fact, many of us outsiders to the industry still don't know the ins and outs of these new professions in streaming, ecommerce and Multi-Channel Networks, or MCNs. / Static can be a clingy nuisance in our lives, especially in the dry winter season. Should we bother to do something about it (20:37)? On the show: Laiming, Niu Honglin & Brandon Yates

In this latest episode, Jianggan takes over as the host, and interviews the team, Sabrina, Yorlin and Liz, about Momentum Works recent Live Commerce immersion, where we brought 20+ delegates from Southeast Asia to Shenzhen.    During the 3 day immersion, participants engaged in over 10 visits, including exclusive tours of leading MCNs. Tune in as we reflect on the trip, sharing memorable experiences -  going behind-the-scenes at MCN studios, interactions with AI virtual hosts, and gaining insights into China's live commerce ecosystem from our panel of expert speakers.   Interested in going behind-the-scenes at MCN studios? Or want to delve deeper into China's live commerce landscape?   Join the Momentum Work Live Commerce Immersion taking place from 28 to 30 May in Hangzhou, China. Register here! You'll have the opportunity to engage in equally impactful visits, discussions, and networking sessions with expert practitioners and potential partners.    Featured materials:  Live Commerce Immersion [May], Momentum Works Live Commerce Immersion [March - completed], Momentum Works  Five top learnings from MW Live Commerce Immersion to China, TheLowDown

The Gamer from Mars joins the podcast again to talk about his recent experience interviewing Chris Chan, the predatory nature of MCNs, and more.

China's live commerce industry is not just big—it's a trillion-dollar powerhouse with a vast ecosystem, encompassing MCNs, enablers, logistics, and more.    With only a month away from Momentum Works upcoming live commerce immersion in Shenzhen, China (where participants will have will visit/meet key players in this ecosystem), we wanted to address some common questions we've received from interested participants, as well as share insights into the ecosystem and trends of live commerce in China.    Tune into this latest episode where we uncover the driving forces behind China's live commerce boom, explore its potential in the US and Southeast Asia, and contemplate the future and influence of AI in this space.    Featured materials: Live Commerce Immersion, Momentum Academy Live commerce in Southeast Asia report, Momentum Works How did this company reach $280m sales in Live commerce?, The Low Down  Why are AI virtual hosts not yet dominant in live commerce?, The Low Down

     Slam the Gavel welcomes Stephen Boyd to the podcast. Stephen is the Founder of The Gabriella Boyd Memorial Foundation that was created on April 28, 2018, after the tragic and devastating loss of  two and a half year old, Gabriella. Shortly after, her father, Stephen Boyd, began this Non-Profit organization in order to not only honor his little girl but also to help those who are struggling through Family Court to have a voice and be heard.     After reluctantly entering into his first “Parenting Agreement” in 2016, that was ordered by a judge in Westchester County, Stephen had been fighting for physical custody of his daughter. Like many of us, he was no familiar with the details and aspects of Family Court Law, Child Support, and Parental Rights pertaining to his situation and the situation of so many others. This process had been very difficult, time consuming, and costly for Stephen. However, the love that he has for his little girl was far greater, and he took all the necessary steps to educate himself and properly build a case. For two and a half years, he had built a case against the mother of his daughter with evidence, which he hoped to show that he ultimately deserved custody of Gabriella.      On Friday April 27, 2018, Stephen Boyd went to Village of Mamaroneck Police Department with the court order he had been fighting so long for. Although Judge Hal B. Greenwald had signed off on Stephen Boyd getting physical custody of his daughter that day, after a series of events that are still currently under investigation, unfortunately that court order was never executed. This case now sits in the Court of Appeals, 2nd Department, Appellate Division.     On Saturday, April 28, 2018, around 1:30 PM, The Village of Mamaroneck Police Department received a call that resulted in police finding Gabriella D.O.A while in the care of her mother. Despite the efforts of the first responders to try to revive and resuscitate her, it was too late. Gabriella Boyd was pronounced dead.     The Gabriella Boyd Memorial Foundation has a mission to help educate and assist those who have struggled to have a voice in custody situations. We want to be able to help those who are struggling, just like Stephen did, to have a chance to better understand their rights and the family court system. This foundation has the help of local law enforcement, social workers, family lawyers, and community activists for parents who want to be present in their children's lives, but are struggling to find the necessary steps and their voice in the process. There will be Informational seminars held quarterly to provide help to those who would like to join us. We are also involved with other foundations who also have the same goal of promoting equality in family law in order to focus on the well-being of our children.       In addition, this foundation will not only donate but focus on assisting causes near and dear to Gabriella; including but not limited to her daycare MCNS, Speech Pathology, Humane Society of Westchester, and more. Gabriella's memory will live on through our efforts and your support.To Reach Stephen Boyd:  gbmf26@gmail.com, 914-813-8387   Could you please sign and share the petition:  https://www.change.org/p/remove-judge-elizabeth-kelly-from-the-bench-permanentlyThis episode of Slam the Gavel is sponsored by CPSprotect Consulting Services. Child Protective Services cases are among the most frightening experiences any parent can endure- don't face them alone! With UrgentAssist by CPSprotect, you get the peaSupport the showSupportshow(https://www.buymeacoffee.com/maryannpetri)http://www.dismantlingfamilycourtcorruption.com/

  Slam the Gavel welcomes Stephen Boyd to the podcast. Stephen is the Founder of The Gabriella Boyd Memorial Foundation that was created on April 28, 2018, after the tragic and devastating loss of  two and a half year old, Gabriella. Shortly after, her father, Stephen Boyd, began this Non-Profit organization in order to not only honor his little girl but also to help those who are struggling through Family Court to have a voice and be heard.     After reluctantly entering into his first “Parenting Agreement” in 2016, that was ordered by a judge in Westchester County, Stephen had been fighting for physical custody of his daughter. Like many of us, he was no familiar with the details and aspects of Family Court Law, Child Support, and Parental Rights pertaining to his situation and the situation of so many others. This process had been very difficult, time consuming, and costly for Stephen. However, the love that he has for his little girl was far greater, and he took all the necessary steps to educate himself and properly build a case. For two and a half years, he had built a case against the mother of his daughter with evidence, which he hoped to show that he ultimately deserved custody of Gabriella.      On Friday April 27, 2018, Stephen Boyd went to Village of Mamaroneck Police Department with the court order he had been fighting so long for. Although Judge Hal B. Greenwald had signed off on Stephen Boyd getting physical custody of his daughter that day, after a series of events that are still currently under investigation, unfortunately that court order was never executed. This case now sits in the Court of Appeals, 2nd Department, Appellate Division.     On Saturday, April 28, 2018, around 1:30 PM, The Village of Mamaroneck Police Department received a call that resulted in police finding Gabriella D.O.A while in the care of her mother. Despite the efforts of the first responders to try to revive and resuscitate her, it was too late. Gabriella Boyd was pronounced dead.     The Gabriella Boyd Memorial Foundation has a mission to help educate and assist those who have struggled to have a voice in custody situations. We want to be able to help those who are struggling, just like Stephen did, to have a chance to better understand their rights and the family court system. This foundation has the help of local law enforcement, social workers, family lawyers, and community activists for parents who want to be present in their children's lives, but are struggling to find the necessary steps and their voice in the process. There will be Informational seminars held quarterly to provide help to those who would like to join us. We are also involved with other foundations who also have the same goal of promoting equality in family law in order to focus on the well-being of our children.       In addition, this foundation will not only donate but focus on assisting causes near and dear to Gabriella; including but not limited to her daycare MCNS, Speech Pathology, Humane Society of Westchester, and more. Gabriella's memory will live on through our efforts and your support.To Reach Stephen Boyd:  gbmf26@gmail.com, 914-813-8387    Could you please sign and share the petition:  https://www.change.org/p/remove-judge-elizabeth-kelly-from-the-bench-permanentlyThis episode of Slam the Gavel is sponsored by CPSprotect Consulting Services. Child Protective Services cases are among the most frightening experiences any parent can endure- don't face them alone! With UrgentAssist by CPSprotect, you get the pea Supportshow(https://www.buymeacoffee.com/maryannpetri)http://www.dismantlingfamilycourtcorruption.com/ Support the show --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/maryann-petri/support

Summary Roberto Blake shares his journey as a full-time YouTuber and the various income streams he has developed. He discusses his early experiences with the Amazon affiliate program and the pitfalls of joining multi-channel networks. Roberto emphasizes the importance of protecting oneself financially as a YouTuber and provides tips on insurance, legal templates, and financial planning. He also shares his most successful money situations, including brand sponsorships and affiliate partnerships. Roberto reveals his next financial move, which involves launching courses. Overall, his story highlights the potential for financial freedom and success as a content creator on YouTube. Takeaways Building a personal brand and showcasing skills can lead to opportunities for income as a content creator. Multi-channel networks (MCNs) may not be beneficial for all creators, and it is important to research and understand the terms and conditions before joining. Protecting oneself financially as a YouTuber involves having insurance, legal templates, and a trusted CPA or accountant who understands the business. Successful brand sponsorships require alignment between the creator, the brand, and the audience, as well as creator autonomy. Diversifying income streams, such as through affiliates, memberships, merch, services, and courses, can provide stability and long-term financial growth. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Background 03:06 First Taste of Income as a YouTuber 05:24 MCNs and Their Appeal 08:09 MCNs in the YouTube Creator World 10:22 Becoming a Full-Time YouTuber 12:20 Offloading Tasks and Hiring Family 15:11 Emotional Journey of Financial Freedom 17:28 Horrible Money Experience 19:20 Protecting Yourself as a YouTuber 28:38 Successful Money Situations 35:03 Income Streams: AdSense, Sponsorships, Affiliates, Memberships, Merch, Services, Courses, Syndication 40:59 Next Financial Move: Courses 41:28 Conclusion

The digital economy has created many jobs previously unheard of. In fact, many of us outsiders to the industry still don't know the ins and outs of these new professions in streaming, ecommerce and Multi-Channel Networks, or MCNs. / Static can be a clingy nuisance in our lives, especially in the dry winter season. Should we bother to do something about it (20:37)? On the show: Laiming, Niu Honglin & Brandon Yates

Prediction: Creator COO will be the hot new job category for MBAs over the next decade. Before the boom of the creator economy the title “creator operator” didn't exist. And as creator-led businesses grow, more and more will need operators to get to the next level.  In this episode, Jim Louderback, Editor and Publisher of Inside the Creator Economy, joins host Matt Estes to discuss the evolution of the Creator COO role. Jim has built and sold numerous creator economy startups to giants like Discovery and Paramount – and his industry insights are unmatched.  He's the former editor-in-chief of PC Magazine and a recognized Top Voice on LinkedIn with over 30k followers. Jim's weekly newsletter "Inside the Creator Economy," reaches over 22 thousand readers and he's truly at the center of the creator conversation. Listen as we discuss how the video industry has evolved, becoming more complex but with a much higher ROI, how a creator operator needs to function depending on what stage the creator is at, and how to build successful partnerships between creators and creator COOs Show Notes: Here are the key takeaways from our conversation with Jim: The Shift to DTC Puts Power in Creators' Hands: Gatekeepers are no more. Early in Jim's career, you would only reach audiences through organizations like magazines, newspapers, or television companies. Now, they can go directly to their audience. Creators today have more leverage than ever, unlocking new growth potential and a whole new world of operations to manage. Creator COOs Enable Scalability and Durability:Dedicating a part- or full-time team member to operations certainly improves a creator's short-term outcomes, but Jim explains the importance of a Creator COO in building a business that lasts. A business operator can step in to think long-term, develop strategies that will outlive fleeting trends, and implement structure that grows with the business. How to Decide Whether You Need a Creator COO:Jim shares how to determine whether to hire an operations expert and, if so, what tasks to offload. He recommends considering what a creator could do with additional capacity, what the creator's long-term vision is, and what structure needs to be in place for growth. He also notes that the COO role can evolve with the business, growing from a fractional role to a full-time position or even multi-person team. Jump into the Conversation: [02:00] The rise and fall of multi-channel networks (MCNs) [08:30] The shift toward a direct-to-consumer (DTC) approach [12:00] How Creator COOs enable scalable and durable businesses [18:00] How to find and delegate work to a Creator COO [29:00] How to compensate a Creator COO [34:00] The potential for VC backing in the creator world [42:30] The spectrum of creator business models and life cycles [48:00] The rise of the in-house creator role [51:00] Jim's advice for aspiring Creator COOs Continue the conversation with these resources: Follow Jim Louderback on LinkedIn and X

In this episode, we're joined by Creator Economy OG Jim Louderback – a pioneer in the world of online video today and former CEO of Vidcon.  We dive into Jim's background and career to date, the rise and fall of MCNs, the evolution of creator business structures, the proliferation of creator tools and how the industry is maturing. Oh and ICYMI Jim writes the popular weekly newsletter "Inside the Creator Economy" on LinkedIn – a highly recommended follow! 

About Phil Ranta from his bio:Phil is a pioneer of the digital media revolution, working as a pre-YouTube professional web video producer in 2005, video content app creator before the smartphone revolution in 2007, an early exec in the MCN boom with two successful exits, and as the Head Gaming Creators at Facebook and Mobcrush, driving the live streaming and the creator-driven media paradigm shift. Currently, as COO of We Are Verified, Phil is helping to build scalable businesses around top content creators.Previously, Phil was the Head of Gaming Creators, North America at Facebook and the Head of Creators at Mobcrush. In both roles, the departments saw significant growth working with top game streaming talent including Ronda Rousey, Disguised Toast, Corinna Kopf, Shroud, and Nate Hill, to name a few.Phil was the COO of Studio71, one of the world's largest MCNs, growing the network from 1 billion to over 8 billion monthly views in 3 years with over 1,000 creators.Before S71, Phil joined Fullscreen as the Head of Channel Partnerships as the 9th employee, completing his tenure as the VP of Networks. He grew the network to the largest MCN in the world (on comScore) in less than 1 year. He was the recipient of Fullscreen's first "Founders Award" for his role in building the industry-leading company.Phil was also a popular comedian, performing at such prestigious LA venues as the Second City Los Angeles (and acting in their touring company aboard Norwegian Cruise Lines), the Upright Citizen's Brigade Theater (improv program graduate), and comedy festivals across America. As a content creator, his videos have received over 100 million views on digital platforms bolstered by his work as a talent/producer on the YouTube channel "PronunciationManual" and co-hosts the "Two and a Half Sportsmen" podcast.

We left some eggs inside your brain and we're just coming to pick them up, sorry. While you've got bug-brain listen to us buzz about remembering dead comedians, TikTok WiFi, free spy market, The Great Wall lie, Lord of the Rings LiveLeak, pitbull reputation, deep frying your dog's balls, Church's Chicken slogan, Chris Chan prison release, Noah Needs Moms, Kanye West Superbad, pawg and muscle mommy erasure, bug protein propaganda, standard issue pedophiles, really small cows, McWasp burger, calamari shrimp, Osmos rat meat, fake pollution studies, make me a purple stew, Will It Toes?, the death of MCNs, Judge Judy vore, giving public schools a god, and a teaser at our next project! Gotta buzz! Check out our monkey merch!: https://my-store-c638a6.creator-spring.com

This interview features Adam Rymer, CEO of OpTic Gaming. We discuss what he learned from running Harvard's campus store, adapting to Napster at Universal Music, why entertainment doesn't value innovation, being on Universal Pictures' greenlight committee, scaling Legendary Digital and working alongside Chris Hardwick and Amy Poehler, how to create communities for gamers, why he plays Fornite with his son, and how to follow your own roadmap.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow us on LinkedIn: RockWater LinkedInEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com Interview TranscriptThe interview was lightly edited for clarity.Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Adam Rymer, CEO of OpTic Gaming. So Adam was born in Fort Lauderdale and was a self-described '80s internet nerd. That meant hanging out on internet bulletin boards and attending internet meetups at bowling alleys. His online passions paid off and he ended up going to Harvard after writing an admission essay, comparing entertainment dollars versus grocery store dollars. Adam's early career included Universal Music where three months after beginning his new role Napster was launched. And Adam had to figure out questions like, "What now? And who do we sue?" After rising up to the exec ranks at Universal Adam then struck out on his own to co-founder production company that worked on projects like the Rover and sci-fi hit arrival. He then became president at nerd and legendary networks where he helped build a multi-platform media business alongside stars like Chris Hardwick and Amy Poehler today. Adam is the CEO of OpTic Gaming, where he is helping to grow and scale one of the world's most exciting companies operating at the intersection of gaming and entertainment.Chris Erwin:Adam, thanks for being on The Come Up Podcast.Adam Rymer:Great to be here, man. Good to see you.Chris Erwin:Yeah. So where are you calling in from?Adam Rymer:I am in Dallas, been here about two years now.Chris Erwin:Are you in the Envy offices right now?Adam Rymer:We are. I moved here in the middle of COVID and we've been, believe it or not, working mostly in the office since I got here.Chris Erwin:Like to hear that people getting back to the office environment. Well, we're going to talk about Envy more, but actually want to rewind a bit, Adam. So going back a few years here, I want to hear about where you grew up and a little bit of what your childhood was like to see if there's any kind of glimpses into this media and digital executive that you've become.Adam Rymer:I am a Florida man. I grew up in Fort Lauderdale. Born in Miami, grew up in Fort Lauderdale, '70s and '80s which whatever anybody thinks about Miami and south Florida now is not what it was like when I was there. It was retiree paradise. And then the occasional spring break debauchery but of course, I was too young to really understand and appreciate any of it. So I just saw all these college kids coming in and thinking that would be awesome. And then by the time I was actually old enough to enjoy spring break, that it all gotten kicked out of south Florida and moved to Daytona and Cancun and wherever else. So missed out on all the benefit of all of it. But Florida was an interesting place to grow up in the '70s and '80s. Left at 17, never really went back, but definitely helped shape my desire to stay someplace warm for the rest of my life.Chris Erwin:Okay. So I have to ask you, what was your household like growing up? Were your parents into the same things that you're into now, media entertainment, digital gaming, gaming, what that looked like back in the day was very different, but what did your parents do and what were some of your early inspirations?Adam Rymer:My dad was a physician. He was an immigrant. My mom helped run the household. I had a younger sister who was six years younger than I. And so we were not overly close partially because of the age difference. And partially because we were just into different things, I was probably what you would call a quintessential nerd back in the day when it was very, very uncool to be a nerd. I got an Apple 2e when I was, I don't know, probably like eight or 10 years old and was goofing around on that with floppy discs and playing Zork and all the text base games and whatever else I could get my hands on. I remember connecting to BBSs back in the day. That was how I spent a lot of my free time.Chris Erwin:But BBS?Adam Rymer:Yeah. BBS was a bulletin board system. It was the modern, the old precursor to, I guess what you'd call like a social media network today. It was dial-in multi-communication platform where you could type and talk to other people and play games with people online, text-based games for the most part and south Florida, believe it or not, was actually the hub of some of the biggest BBS companies in the .country every now and then we'd go to meetups with people who were on these, these services, but you'd get online and play trivia and you'd play just chat with each other. And I guess back in the day, you'd consider it pretty weird. And today you just call it WhatsApp.Chris Erwin:So question, you said we would go to meetups. How old are you and who is we? Are you going with your parents or friends?Adam Rymer:Yeah. I was like 13, 14, and I'd have friends that would drive me around. We'd meet at like bowling alleys and family entertainment centers like arcades and mini golf places. And there'd be people from 14 to 40, but everybody was just connected through these online environments of being... At the time, I guess we were outcast and ostracized. And like I said, we were big old nerds.Chris Erwin:Were your parents supportive of some of your interests here with these meetups and the BBSs?Adam Rymer:Yeah, I mean, they didn't really know what was going on. For me, it was just a way to meet people and make friends and met some really interesting folks. Met some really odd, strange folks through it. Some people went on to greatness and do some pretty cool things. Some people faded off into obscurity. I think it definitely helped define and set my career in motion from being part of something that was just on the cutting edge of interactivity and technology. And 'cause there was a lot of steps to it, right. We had to, you had to get a 300-baud modem. You had to connect a phone line to it. You had to pay for time on the service by dropping off some money at a house or sending something in somewhere else. And I mean, it was really complicated, but we made it work. It was a weird time. It was like during the days of war games, if you remember the movie War Games, it was like that sort of universe.Chris Erwin:I've known you for years now. This is the first time I've really asked about your upbringing in your childhood. And within one minute, learn something completely new, but it makes sense. Everyone nowadays talks about how do you build community? How do you build fandom amongst different media brands, participants, creators, and users, et cetera? And you have now three to four decades of experience of building fandom on the internet. It's all becoming much more clear. So as you go to high school and then you're applying for college, what did you think that you were going to do?Adam Rymer:It's funny so we used to go to Disney World a lot in Florida, right? Because it's only about two-hour drive from where I lived. And I was always, I guess, kind of a weird business-focused kid at a certain level. I remember writing my college essay about Disney, but not about the cool entertainment factor of Disney about the business of Disney and how I found it super interesting that when you would go to someplace like Disney World, that you would be totally open to spending $8 on a Mickey bar ice cream that if you were just at a grocery store, you would totally freak out about highway robbery. You would just never spend that kind of money. And, I wrote my essay about like entertainment dollars being different from regular dollars. I did, I guess-Chris Erwin:So precocious.Adam Rymer:... I was a weird kid and at the time I was like, "I want to be Michael Eisner." Michael Eisner was my idol at the time not knowing a whole lot about anything, but knowing Disney and seeing how that was working, I was like, "That's my aspiration." Right? So went off to college. And at the time I was focused on engineering because as a nerd, geeky kid, I thought I was going to be an engineer, but within a year of college, I shifted over to being an economics major and really focusing more on business and really put most of my efforts into pursuing kind of game theory and business and economics.Chris Erwin:You went to Harvard up in Cambridge, right?Adam Rymer:That's the one. Yeah.Chris Erwin:So your essay must have been something special to get into that school. Right?Adam Rymer:God. To this day, I don't know how I got in. I'll tell you, I mean, it's my 25th reunion this year. I look around and I see other people from my class and I see kids today and I mean the quality of students and applications is just phenomenal. And to this day I count my lucky stars that I went there and got in there and survived. It was the hardest experience in my life. I can't even tell you, I felt overwhelmed half the time, lucky half the time. I mean, it was something.Chris Erwin:Well, if you're going to a reunion, my dad, I think is Harvard '70. And I think he's going to his reunion this year as well. So maybe you guys can bump into one another there. So you're at Harvard, you're feeling overwhelmed, but feeling lucky and grateful. And do you think you get more clarity on what you want to do when you're graduating?Adam Rymer:Yeah. Well, look, while I was there, I had my first real work experience. So we had this thing called Harvard Student Agencies. And what that is a bunch of student-run businesses on campus that are sanctioned by the university. And they let students sort of operate businesses through a platform that the university puts together. And I started out running something called the Campus Store, which basically sold futons and refrigerators and class rings and all the stuff you need for dorm rooms. And then my second year I became vice president of the organization. And one of the things that organization also did was produce the Let's Go Travel Guides, which might be a sign of another era, but it was books that you would use to go travel abroad and low-budget travel through Europe and other places around the world.Adam Rymer:And it was a team of hundreds of students that would write these books and go out and travel and run these businesses. And I did that for two and a half years of my time at school. And I found my time working and helping to run these businesses to be maybe the best education that I got over my time there. So by the time that I was graduating, I was pretty dead set on being in the business world, operating, trying to figure out some way to be an executive in some way, shape or form. Didn't necessarily know exactly what type of business to run. So I ended up going into management consulting, coming out of school because to me that seemed like the best landing spot, where I could get a sense of a bunch of different industries, bunch of different businesses, try to solve some problems for different companies and then figure out what I wanted to do from there. Or just do that for the rest of my life. Because from what I heard, that was a pretty cool thing to do.Chris Erwin:Got it. You go to L.E.K. Consulting in the late '90s. Was the experience what you expected it to be?Adam Rymer:So, so late '90s, I got to take you back a minute. I mean, at the time computers were still relatively, they weren't new, but they were not as useful as they are today. Everything was hard. The internet was slow. The amount of data that you had access to wasn't quite there, Google wasn't quite there. So I was building a lot of financial models. It was hard to do the research. We were printing things out on overhead projector slides for client presentations. PowerPoint was not as user friendly as it is today. I think I, when I started there, we were using Lotus 1-2-3, not even Excel. I was working probably 80 to 100 hours. I found the work interesting. I found the rigor interesting. I found the type of things we were doing interesting. I did not find the clients. I was working on overly exciting, and that was a big epiphany for me.Adam Rymer:I found it really hard to stay focused working for industries that I didn't have a passion for. At one point I was no joke... People say these things as jokes, I was working for a vacuum cleaner manufacturer, literally a company that made vacuum cleaners and I was helping them reallocate their sales force across the country. It was just hard. I was on the road and I was looking through maps and I was looking at different DMAs and I was trying to help them figure this out. I also spent a lot of time working in the biotech space, trying to look at different drugs that were coming to market and how they should be priced and talking to a lot of doctors and physicians about whether they would use the product and whether they would get approved by the FDA.Adam Rymer:And look, it wasn't my background. I mean, I purposely stayed away from anything pre-med I don't think I took any biology classes past ninth grade. The work was fun. The hours were rough, but not being passionate about the day to day subject was a real challenge for me. So about a year in, I was trying to figure out what was next.Chris Erwin:I hear you. I mean, I was a banker, right when I graduated from school undergrad. I think from like 2005 to 2010. And yeah, we were able to pull down 10-Ks and SEC filings, from the internet and able to get a bunch of financial information using Excel to create models. And I just remember all my MDs being like, "We used to have to get the 10-K's physically mailed to us." They didn't have Excel and they were doing modeling by hand on paper or in these really basic computer systems. And I was like, "Either that sounds terrible or it was better because you could just focus and do less." Where when you have access to technology your bosses just expect, "Well, you can work on five assignments at the same time." Right? You're equipped. But anyway, I digress.Chris Erwin:So then, okay, you do that for a couple of years and then I think you make a decision that instead of being an advisor and consultant, you want to go work for a company. You go to the line, quote, unquote, "some people say." And you go to Universal Music. So how was that transition for you?Adam Rymer:I mean, it was a magical transition for me. I mean, it was a happenstance lucky break for me and my career and the whole rest of my career, to be honest with you. And it goes down in something I think about still on a regular basis is having been a nerd. I mean, this goes back to the BBS story is I had built a PC. I was living in Cambridge. I was downloading the first MP3 files off the internet from really obscure search engines, like web crawler and LICOs. And I bought the first MP3 player that was ever made. And I would take this MP3 player to the gym and the use case for a portable MP3 player I found fascinating. The other options available at the time were a Walkman with a tape that you had to make a mix tape for, or a CD player, which for those who don't remember them, trying to get a CD player not to skip when you're at the gym or on a treadmill is almost impossible.Adam Rymer:And so I, part of me just realized like this digital music universe is going to be the way to go. This is just going to completely take over the future as the technology gets better. And I went to the consulting company I was at, and I said, "Look, we should sell a project to the music business and help them figure out the future of digital music, because there's no doubt in my mind that this is going to change the whole face of how the music industry works." To their credit they let me help work on selling that project and they successfully did sell the project. To not their credit they didn't let me work on the project.Chris Erwin:You can be the idea, the inspiration, create the pitch. And then it's like, "And you're off the team."Adam Rymer:So I left and that was the impetus for me leaving. I applied for a job at Universal and I was very fortunate to get an interview and then ultimately get hired to go join the strategy group at Universal Music in New York in, I think it was 1999, early 1999. It was a life-changing moment because the beginning in 1999 MP3 files and digital music was starting to be a huge subject of conversation. It was on the front page of USA Today. I was quoted in a bunch of things. It was something that everybody was talking about and knew was coming. But what nobody saw coming was Napster and Napster happened about three months after I got to Universal.Chris Erwin:Oh wow.Adam Rymer:So all of a sudden I was thrown into the fire with, it wasn't just me we had a team of people. But it was the, "Okay. Piracy is real. It's not going anywhere. How do we solve this?" Do we start suing the companies? Do we start suing our customers? Do we create our own technology? Do we create a subscription service, which is no joke, an idea that we presented at the time in 1999. What do we do? How do we solve this problem? Because it's not going anywhere and technology isn't where it is today.Chris Erwin:Follow-up question on that. Adam, did you feel that the leadership, did they understand the weight of the situation? Were they really panicked, very concerned or it's like, "This is an issue we should sort this out over the next five years, but take your time and be thoughtful." What was that sense inside the building?Adam Rymer:I'm going to answer that in a couple ways. I mean, this is a problem that I have seen throughout my entire career, which is that at traditional entertainment companies, the leadership is rarely incentivized to try to really innovate solutions to the biggest challenges that are in front of them. There's a lot of reasons for that. And I don't necessarily blame the leadership that's at these companies. A lot of them are publicly traded. They need to hit their quarterly returns. They're incentivized to hit those quarterly returns. Innovation is very rarely valued at these companies the way that it needs to be. Oftentimes they can buy innovation when they need to. Right? They're big enough. They've got public stock and if there's a startup, they can often buy the company that's going to solve their innovation problem. The difficulty in these cases is when you're dealing with something that's inherently illegal or theoretically illegal, you can't just buy the illegal thing and make that part of your repertoire.Adam Rymer:So the answer that was given was essentially like, "Look, let's let the courts figure this out." It was somewhat of a, "Well, obviously this is illegal. So the government should just stop this and get in front of it and shut it down because we have the right to sell music on discs and all these other things." And I think there was an inherent unwillingness to accept the fact that the consumers get to decide these things. Consumers get to decide how they want to consume content, how they want to live their lives. And ultimately it's the entertainment companies and the media companies who have to answer to the consumers on these things. And that's where I saw the biggest disconnect. And it wasn't just at the music industry. I've seen that through most of my career.Chris Erwin:Yeah. You were at Universal Music for about one to two years. So, and clearly had some early exposure to digital, but we're seeing that this is a theme from very early on in your career and your childhood. But then shortly thereafter you go to Universal Pictures. Why'd you make that transition? Did you feel, "Hey, there's a lot of inertia here, things aren't changing and I want to go to another part of the house," or was it something else? What was that catalyst for change?Adam Rymer:Well, for anybody who remembers the advent of Napster and piracy, also the crash of 2000 from a tech standpoint, just really killed the entire music industry. I mean, the music industry was cratering at that point. People were losing their jobs. Revenue was cut more or less than half very quickly. And I had an opportunity to go to business school. So I jumped and I decided I was going to ride out the storm of 2000 and everything else while I was in business school. And if there was still a music industry to go back to, I loved the music business. I would've gone back to music after business school, but between 2000 and 2002, while I was in school, the music industry kept falling. They couldn't quite figure out the solution. And I spent my summer at Universal Pictures looking at a another side of entertainment.Adam Rymer:So after school that turned into a full-time offer. My thought on it was the biggest challenge the music industry had was technology hit them like a title wave because the technology at the time had already caught up to the feasibility for music, meaning you could download a song in a reasonable amount of time to make it useful for the end-user, right? It only took a couple minutes, 5, 10 minutes at most to download a song, if not an album based on where technology was in 1999. When I graduated from, from school and went off to film the technology, wasn't there to download a movie, right? We were still a long way off from maybe not that long, but technology hadn't quite hit the film business in terms of feasibility for the piracy and the not having enough time to get in front of.Adam Rymer:So the way I saw it was this is an opportunity to get into the film business and try to help them stave off the problems that the music industry faced. How do I take the learnings from music and apply it to the film business and try to do some things differently here that we couldn't do there?Chris Erwin:You go there and you have a seven-year run and you end up rising to become I think the SP of digital for Universal Pictures where you're managing an international staff of, I think over 20 people across the US as well as London and Tokyo, if I'm right. Did you feel that at that point that you were coming into your own as an executive where you have a vision, you know how to solve problems, you know how to build the teams? And did you feel like that was a transformational moment in your career?Adam Rymer:I thought so. I thought so. It was the, "Hey, this is great. My career's really advancing. I'm at the senior levels of a major studio. I'm getting to present to some really cool people." I'm continued to have some really lucky experiences. Got involved in some very cool projects. I was always very much on the business side of it. I was pretty far removed from I'd say the creative side. It wasn't until the very end of my stint at Universal that I got put on the green light committee at Universal, which is where you actually get to have a say over which films get made at the studio, which was a pretty cool experience. Although it didn't last very long.Chris Erwin:How big is that committee and how much weight did your particular vote from the digital strategy side count?Adam Rymer:I'm not sure how much weight anybody's individual vote has, except for a couple of people on those committees. There's about 10 people on that committee across the studio. You've got home entertainment and marketing and production and the head of the studio and those kinds of things. It's fascinating. I mean, it's very kind of closed-door sort of, sort of setting very private, almost Illuminati-ish, but it was pretty cool to be in the room for some of it. But my job was to weigh in on what the digital and alternative revenue streams could be for the titles that we were working on. So things like video games, YouTube content, ancillary products. At the time we were talking about things like ring tones. What's the other stuff that we can do out of these films to generate revenue.Adam Rymer:And then I would be on the hook for delivering those numbers against the P&L for that particular title. It was pretty neat. And I felt like things were going pretty well for my career at that point, for sure. Now the downside was during my time there, we kept getting acquired. And for most people getting acquired sounds like it's a pretty awesome thing. Usually, there's like, "Hey, you got paid out. That's a big success, big exit." Well, in the big giant corporate world, those kinds of acquisitions usually get met with, "Hey, we're just kind of sitting on our hands for a while." So Universal was a big company. And when I started working for them, it was owned by Seagram. Then it was owned by Vivendi. Then it was owned by GE. And when I left, it had been acquired by Comcast.Adam Rymer:And we were always the acquired company, which meant that the acquiring company was taking their people, having them learn about the business that they were buying, meeting with everybody trying to figure out what everybody did, which resulted in a whole lot of work for all of us to educate them. And usually, that met with a whole bunch of reorganization and strategy redesignChris Erwin:Hey listeners, this is Chris Erwin, your host of the Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work. And it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it everybody. Let's get back to the interview.Chris Erwin:So, Adam, I totally feel you on if you're always the target and you're being acquired the reeducation of the new leadership. It's a lot. I mean, I remember when Big Frame was bought by Awesomeness TV and then Verizon, and then Hearst then invested thereafter, and then Comcast NBC U came and bought Dreamworks, which had owned Awesomeness. And there's always the strategic goal shift, the mandate shift there's reorganizations. And there's a point where you're just like, "I just want to get to work." And look, that's the nature of the beast, but was that a reason why after your seven-year run, you then started to explore entrepreneurship? You were the co-founder and COO and CFO of Lava Bear Films. And you did that for a few years. Was that the reason why you made the switch?Adam Rymer:Yeah, look, I mean, there were management changes and to be honest, I had been part of a very big company where I was an employee number. I still remember my employee number to this day, which says a lot, and it was an eight-digit number. So I was just a little tired of being in that kind of structure and part of me who likes solving problems and actually making things happen and not having a whole lot of red tape. There was an opportunity in front of me. The chairman of Universal had left and had an opportunity to start a film production company and asked me to help him put the business plan together for it and raise some capital and go after it. So I thought it would be a great chance for me to not only learn how to start a company from scratch but also learn about the other side of the business, the creative side of the business. How do you actually make content from start to finish?Chris Erwin:Well, you must have been doing something right at universal if the chairman leaves and wants to bring you on board to his next venture, right?Adam Rymer:I would hope so. I would hope so.Chris Erwin:So you're there. You learned the creative side of the business, which I think is, I've talked about this on a few podcasts, right? Usually, in entertainment, you're either on the business side of the house or on the creative side of the house. It's rare for people to speak both those languages. I think of people maybe like Bob Iger or David Zaslav at Discovery in Warner Media. Right. So it's smart to build out that muscle and I think that you are an executive producer on The Rover and you helped finance the movie Arrival?Adam Rymer:That's right.Chris Erwin:Produced by FilmNation and [inaudible 00:28:25] and Glen Basner and they're good friends of ours.Adam Rymer:Great guys.Chris Erwin:Yeah. They're the best. And so you do that for four years and did you see like, "Hey, maybe there's a world where you stay in the creative side of entertainment?" Was that interesting to you?Adam Rymer:Look, it was an amazing experience. I always wanted to see how the whole sausages gets made from start to end and really got to do that. I was going around to film festivals. I was reading scripts. I was handling some of the talent deals. I was negotiating a lot of the financing for the films. We were selling the projects internationally. We were dealing with the studios. We were looking at the marketing for the films when they came out. But for I'm sure you've talked about this on some other podcasts the filmmaking process is very long and very slow. And so for me, it was I like being on the creative side of the business or having involvement on the creative side. But I don't know that filmmaking was the place for me to explore that in the long term, because I'm so used to being in areas where things move very quickly, right?Adam Rymer:Even the music business moves relatively quickly. And on the digital world, I was watching things happen. Snapchat was starting to happen and Twitch wasn't quite there yet, but YouTube was really starting to take off and there were all these other things that were happening in the background. And I just felt like I was missing some really cool, innovative opportunities that were going on. So I had an opportunity to go join Legendary, which was at the time a pretty cool independent studio started by Thomas Tull. They had made Godzilla and Hangover and King Kong and 300. And he asked me if I would help them build their digital businesses over there.Chris Erwin:Was it an immediate yes? Like, "Oh yeah, this makes sense. This is an incredible studio with some incredible IP. There's a lot I can do here. Let's get to work." Or were you evaluating other things too?Adam Rymer:I wasn't evaluating other things. And it was pretty hard decision because you this was a company that I had helped start and I was a pretty big piece of, but the opportunity and it was a blank slate. I was kind of handed a, "We don't know what the right answer is and we need somebody who's got enough experience on both sides of the equation here that understands making some content, understands distribution, understands the business side of it to really help us figure out what we should do with this asset that we have." They had just acquired Nerdist and just didn't have a solid business plan on how to start making real revenues out of it. So for me, it was a puzzle to solve right back to the things that I love, which is trying to put pieces together.Adam Rymer:At a certain level the film business has a very defined path, right? There's not much to solve in that. There's always new innovations that are getting made. There's new ways to finance a film. But for the most part, the business model of making movies is relatively defined. You might say that Netflix has changed that in some way, shape, or form, but there wasn't a whole lot of, "How am I going to do this for the next 20 years and innovate and do some neat things?" And at Legendary, it felt like there was a real chance to try all sorts of new ideas.Chris Erwin:When you enter their first year, they've acquired Nerdist and I think that was... Was that founded by Chris Hardwick?Adam Rymer:Correct? Yep.Chris Erwin:And so what did you think of, okay, these are the wins that I want to get in year one. I think that we are capable of doing this. It also feels innovative. And then I think it's going to set you up to have an exciting career overseeing digital at Legendary going forward. What was that first mandate for you?Adam Rymer:First thing was really figuring out how are we going to generate consistent revenue? Because at the time the video part of Nerdist was founded as one of the funded YouTube channels. Some people might remember that YouTube was putting a lot of money into funding channels for the purpose of creating more premium content on YouTube and right around 2014, they stopped funding those channels. And so a lot of these channels ended up in no man's land of figuring out how they were going to keep their business running. And so for me, the first step was okay, well, now that we don't have this stipend coming from YouTube every year, how are we going to find ways to just generate consistent revenue even if we're still operating at a little bit of loss, something that we can project to keep it all moving. So at the time we had the Nerdist podcast and we had some content that was existing on YouTube, and my first step was, well, how do we start monetizing podcasts in a better way?Adam Rymer:So I was able to take Chris's podcast and structure a deal with Midroll and that helped get us really kicked off with our first seven-figure deal, which let me hire some more staff and start to figure out some new lines of business.Chris Erwin:Did you feel like, "Hey, we figured out a digital revenue model here for media brands and fandoms built around big personalities"? And so did that then inspire you to say, "Well, let's start buying some other companies to add onto this roster"? Because I think you then acquired Geek and Sundry and then Amy Poehler's Smart Girls at the Party.Adam Rymer:That's right. So the idea was, well, if we can create enough of scale around these celebrity-driven community content businesses, then we can justify having an infrastructure that can support all of them the right way. So that allowed us to have a sales team that could support all of them, and start doing branded content deals that could leverage the communities that were built across all of them simultaneously bring some staff efficiencies together, and allow content production to be more efficient. So we had our entire... We had our own content production team. We had our own studio where we produced all of the content that we're making for the YouTube channels ourselves and for our branded content features. And ultimately that led us to start a Twitch channel with Geek and Sundry, which is where I started to learn quite a lot about Livestream.Chris Erwin:So do you feel at this point it's like, "All right." You're attached to a big studio, you have a lot of resources, you have incredible IP to work with, but you also, you're running your own division, which has its own P&L. It seems like you're on both the creative and the business sides of the house, where you have a real strong point of view of what content we're creating. How do we monetize it? What's getting green-lit? What new platforms are we experimenting with? You're building out a team against your vision. Did you feel like, "Hey, I feel like I have it all right now"? This is checking all the boxes for my career.Adam Rymer:In hindsight, I guess so. I mean, at time it felt very stressful. At the time it felt like we were building the plane while we were flying it. And there weren't a whole lot of examples for us to point to say, "Hey, we're doing it like these guys," or we've got somebody else that's done it in front of us. There were the MCNs out there that were aggregating a bunch of channels together. And they had a somewhat different business model, but there was nobody who was really trying to create more premium level content on a regular basis. And I mean, I had to answer to a pretty senior studio executive. So I had a lot of pressure from that side, but I did have the luxury of a good balance sheet. So I wasn't having to deal with trying to raise capital on a regular basis to keep the thing afloat.Adam Rymer:There was a couple years there where it really felt like the coolest, most fun job that I ever could have thought I've had. We were going down to ComicCon. Chris was moderating panels for us in Hall H. Got to go backstage and hang out with the cast of all the Marvel films before they got on Hall H. we had all sorts of fun people coming by the studio to be in the content, got to watch and be part of a lot of the content that was being filmed at our location. I think most of the people that were there at the time will tell you that it was a pretty magical place to be for a couple of years.Chris Erwin:I mean, I remember going to your offices a couple times during that period and just looking around at the different sets and the studios. And I was like, "This sounds like a pretty amazing gig, Adam." I knew that you were working really hard and that it was a lot and you were kind of figuring things out on the fly as you said, but I think everything in retrospect, you get some clarity of like, "Oh, that was a pretty cool moment." You know? And I think that was a very cool moment for you. And clearly, you learned a lot, which has bolstered your career. But I'm curious to hear you so you started experimenting with Twitch. I think that's just an interesting precursor to some of the channels and the partners that you work with today, particularly in gaming, similar to when you saw the power of MP3s when you were up in Cambridge.Chris Erwin:And then you saw how that was going to disrupt the music space. When you were first exposed to Twitch, did a light bulb go off on your head and say, "Hey, there's something incredibly exciting about the power of live?" What was that moment like for you?Adam Rymer:I'll be honest. I wasn't the biggest, "Hey, we're going to figure out how to monetize this immediately live streaming." I was the suit in the room on it. I had some people from Geek and Sundry come to me and they said, "We think that we can create a channel for Geek and Sundry and stream different kinds of content, just do some stuff out of our office. And we will minimize the cost that it takes for us to do it and we'll give it a shot. And they did it and they got it up and running and they spent as little as they could to create a set and livestream and got a bunch of equipment donated. And it was okay. And Felicia came on and streamed with it and that helped build an audience for it. And it was programmed. I mean, the thing that was most interesting about it was it actually had a schedule.Adam Rymer:There were shows that were on certain times of day, certain days of the week, it was a live-streamed TV network. Maybe one of the first of its kind. It started to gain some traction, but it was when Felicia brought in her friends at Critical Role to stream their Dungeons and Dragons game that we really started to see the magic of what live-streaming could be.Chris Erwin:What was unique about bringing Critical Role in live-streaming Dungeons and Dragons? What did you feel was special for the audience or to help amplify marketing? What was that?Adam Rymer:Well, I mean, what was amazing about it was it found a community that never had a place to call home. So most of Twitch was watching people play video games. There was some what you'd call today, just chatting going on, which is mostly what Geek and Sundry was. There was some game playing, but nobody was really streaming D and D at the time or doing things that were a little more creative like that in a meaningful, well-produced way. And all of a sudden this show found a home and started to spread by word of mouth and it had some great talent attached to it, right? Everybody who's on Critical Role is professional voice actors in their own right. And so they brought a level of confidence to it that don't think many people have seen before. And Matt Mercer's just a genius as a DM at the end of the day. So giving this community, which is spread out around the world a home one day a week, where they can all get together and share an experience at the same time, really became a magical place to be.Adam Rymer:So Twitch loved us because we were bringing in a community that wasn't necessarily there naturally again, because most of Twitch was more based around video gaming and the D and D community loved it because it was giving them a place that they had never had before. It was a little bit like lightning in a bottle.Chris Erwin:It just goes back to, I think I was listening to a podcast by Ben Thompson a couple weeks ago. And I think a point that was made is never underestimate the ability of the internet to reach these incredibly niche fandoms all around the world. There is interest in anything at a minimum, at least one person will be into something if you put it out there. But I think Dungeons and Dragons has this massive community and like you said, but they didn't really have a place to call home and you guys created that for them. I think that was just like so beautifully articulated. I love that. So you're doing your thing at Nerdist and Legendary you're there for five years, but then at the end of your five-year run, you go into this exploratory phase where you're advising a few different companies.Chris Erwin:I think you're reimagining cinema with a company called WeVu. And I remember being in your living room, having some brainstorm sessions around that with a few mutual friends, shout out to Adam Sachs. And then you end up as at the CEO, as of Envy Gaming, a big bet on the gaming space. How did that run come to an end? And then it kicked off. I'm going to make a bet on the gaming space. What did that look like for you?Adam Rymer:Sure. So Legendary sold to a big Chinese company called Wanda and I'll make it a short story. It was just the fit for me at the new version of the company wasn't quite the same as it was under the previous leadership. So I left and started advising companies that I just thought were really interesting and cool out there. Did some work with [inaudible 00:40:44]. Did some work with Participant. Did some work with ranker.com, other friends of mine that I had known over the years that I just had a chance to really help out here and there. And then out of the blue, right before COVID hit, I got a call from a recruiter about this position with NB Gaming. And as I've said, I've been a gamer geek nerd most of my life. And I've been paying attention to what's been going on in the gaming and Esports space for a long time.Adam Rymer:At Universal, I was responsible for all the video game work that was done. We had produced a couple games while I was there. We looked at buying a big video game publisher while I was there. So the video game space wasn't totally new to me, but the video game lifestyle space was a little bit new. And I had been following the growth of Twitch, the growth of what you'd call the celebrity influencers and creators that were emerging on the platform. And I had seen some of these Esports organizations. I hadn't necessarily known of Envy at the time, but I did know of a couple of the other ones that were out there. And I saw the potential, right? I saw the early days of a new form of brand and community entertainment, which was emerging on Twitch and other platforms because it was interactive. And when I started meeting the people that were here at Envy, it really felt like the next phase of innovation for me.Adam Rymer:And if you think about the path of my career, which has always been trying to find where's that edge of entertainment and technology and consumer behavior music with Napster and film with digital distribution and Nerdist with community-based content. This really feels like the edge of the universe at the moment, in terms of where the community is starting to emerge, where you've got a new generation of people who are not watching traditional television. It felt to me like this is a place to plant my flag for a while and see how I can help this develop.Chris Erwin:So you end up moving. You were based out of LA. Your family was in LA but the role was in Dallas. Did you just move there full-time in the beginning or were you commuting like four days a week in Dallas? And then back to LA on the weekends?Adam Rymer:I moved here to Dallas in the summer of 2020 having never met anybody at the company in person because we were all working from home. And my family stayed back in LA because of the pandemic. And I would fly back home every two weeks to see them. And we did that for about nine months while my kid was finishing the school year. It was an interesting time to be away from home and in a new city that I knew absolutely nothing about. I had never really been to Dallas before. I knew nothing about the city.Chris Erwin:Did you take on the role without ever meeting anyone from the founding team, the leadership, or the investor group in person? It was all Zoom calls and then you signed on the dotted line?Adam Rymer:Yes.Chris Erwin:Wow. That's a big decision.Adam Rymer:Yes. That's how convinced I was about the future of this space and also the people that were involved with it. So the interesting part about that period of time is I have a son who at the time was eight years old. And the way that he and I would stay in touch and I think this is telling to the future of this space, the way he and I would stay in touch while I was living in Dallas and he was in LA is we would play Fortnite together. Several times during the week I would get home from work, we'd both load up Fortnite and we'd put on the cameras. And while we were playing Fortnite, we'd catch up on how school was going and what his friends were up to and how he's doing. And that to me was the whole reason why I'm in this space.Adam Rymer:Because yes, we were playing a game and we were shooting people and we were like having a good time, but it was really just about us spending time together and talking to each other and interacting with each other. And that's what I think we're going to remember at the end of the day and not what skin we were wearing or any of that kind of thing, which to me shows how gaming is just the natural way of interacting and communicating for people today.Chris Erwin:That is so cool. I mean, I think about from our generations like Gen X and Millennials, oh, early memories of your father, it's like going fishing together, right. Going camping. And I think that your son, right, these like Gen Alpha, their memories will be like, "I remember when we used to play that old game Fortnight and we used to talk and catch up about our what was going on in school." It's just going to be a whole transformation of memories of childhood and with their parents, you know?Adam Rymer:Absolutely.Chris Erwin:I love that. We always say for us, you need to be where your clients are at. Tell our clients to don't resist or to be forceful. And I really like you're meeting your kid where he's at. If you look at the stats, we just did a big research project for a toy retailer of where are parents and kids independently and then also as a co-viewing unit spending their time online. It's on social media and it's in these big gaming environments, like Fortnite, like Roblox, like Minecraft. So I think that's pretty smart parenting, Adam. I am not a parent, but I think that it seems like smart parenting from afar.Adam Rymer:Absolutely. It's a new world. I keep trying to explain to people who are in a, I don't even want to say older generation, right because I don't feel like I'm old these days, but I'll just say anybody who's Gen X and older, we tend to use the word gamer, right? As like, "Oh, there's gamers." People are gamers and it's a misnomer now. It made sense for our generation because gaming was such a new thing for people to do. Not everybody had an Xbox, not everybody had an Atari. Gaming wasn't a natural course of business. But for this new generation, for the younger generations, asking somebody if they're a gamer is like asking people in our generations, if they listen to music or if they go to the movies.Adam Rymer:Well, you might talk to people and say, "Hey, what TV shows are you watching?" And there might be people who say, "I don't watch TV" and you're going to say, "Okay, well, that's strange. I mean, most people watch TV." But in this generation, I think we are increasingly reaching the stage of saying, "What games do you play?" Not, "Are you a gamer?" Because to me that is the given for this generation.Chris Erwin:I love that. Such a poignant point. Couple quick questions before we go onto our closing rapid fire. But when you got in there, I remember I'm like, "Adam, so what's your initial focus there?" And I think that you had a point of view like you've done at your other companies of what is the 360 monetization model? How do you take these teams, these players... How do you build media brands around them? How do you build fandoms? What is the talent-driven model to really take this business to the next level? If you could just tell our listeners what your initial re-imagination and growth vision for the company was in year one.Adam Rymer:A lot of it is applying principles to it at a certain level. What we do, isn't very different from other forms of media and entertainment that I've been involved with. And other people have been involved with in the past, which is we have a brand that has stature and meaning and association. It has a community around it. And through that brand and through the content that we create, we reach our users, we reach their eyeballs. It helps our brands and advertisers reach their eyeballs and it helps us connect with them. And so that's no different from any other form of media, whether that was magazines back in the day or television, or filmed entertainment, it is at a certain level. It is reach and it is scale. And so when I came in here first, it was really just understanding the dynamics of the industry.Adam Rymer:Where does monetization happen? What platforms does it happen on? How do we actually get in touch with these people? What kind of data is available? But then it was what are the assets that we actually have and what levers can we pull and what is our programming? So when you start thinking of the brand and your programming, you start saying to yourself, okay, well, I've got teams and I've got content creators, and I've got original programming that we put out. And you start looking at the pieces of your organization as what reach to each of those pieces have. So I've got this team and they play a certain game. Let's call it rocket league. Well, what audience does that rocket league team bring to me? Where are those people from? What demographic is that group of people? Are they mostly in the US or are they mostly international?Adam Rymer:What age are they? What states do they come from? What do they care about? What brands and industries are they interested in? And then I've got our call of duty team. Same thing. What reach do they have? Switch over to our content creator side. Okay. Well, if I'm going to bring on a new content creator, what's the audience that I'm getting from working with that content creator? It's not overly different. I mean, it is, there are differences in nuances, but if you are Discovery Channel and you're thinking about filling the 8:00 PM slot on Thursday, well, what are you going to put on in that 8:00 PM slot? You don't want to put on something that overlaps with another show that you already get that audience from. This is the whole definition of programming. It's the same reason why Game of Thrones and Westworld aren't on at the same time for HBO. They sequence those things because they want to optimize the programming and make sure that people stay subscribed to HBO for a longer period of time.Adam Rymer:So understanding your audience, understanding who's coming in, understanding the reach that you get with the assets that you have available starts to get the company thinking about us as a media property. And once you shift your mindset to thinking about it as a media property rather than necessarily a sports team, you start to build business processes around that in a different way. And that's what we're focused on at the moment.Chris Erwin:I don't think I've heard a smarter encapsulation of a media strategy than your past couple minutes, Adam. So very well done. So I'm curious in putting that strategy in place, just over the past almost two years, what are some of your favorite moments of some wins with the team? I was reading on LinkedIn. There's the Valorant Championships and the Green Wall, the Fandom really coming alive, having over a million concurrent viewers of the competition. Is that one of them? Are there others? What has that been for you?Adam Rymer:To start with our Call of Duty team won the CDL Championship within a month of me being here at Envy, which was mind-numbing. It's like, imagine joining the Chicago bulls five days before they won the NBA Championship, right? It's that kind of thing. And all of a sudden you've got a ring and you've got a trophy and you've got all this stuff and you barely started to understand what this world is all about. It was a pretty phenomenal moment. It was an amazing way to get indoctrinated into the space and get excited about it all. So now I've got a championship ring that's sitting in my office and that was a pretty fun, pretty fun moment. But yeah, about a year later, we merged with OpTic Gaming, which some of the listeners might know is one of the biggest, most passionate fan bases in the world when it comes to gaming and Esports.Adam Rymer:And that has been like wildfire for us. Hector Hex, just an amazing individual who's knows how to work with his audience and knows how to create content, and knows how to bring the audience into the brand in a really phenomenal way. And he's been educating us on a bunch of things that we didn't quite understand, and we've been working with him on some of the monetization things and just really couldn't have put two better organizations together. So within two months of bringing those organizations together, we won the Valorant Championship in Iceland, which is, as you were mentioning, had over a million people watching it. And just again, just another one of those too picture-perfect of a moment for us. Great memories that we're going to have forever.Chris Erwin:That's awesome. A final question for you is what's next for Envy gaming? What should people be watching for in some of the upcoming announcements, some new business initiatives? I think I was looking at from your team, there's some new virtual character immersion like CodeMiko. I'm pronouncing that right? Maybe some web three activations. What are you working on right now?Adam Rymer:What I think you're going to see out of us over the next year is really continued expansion of optic from a brand perspective, in terms of the areas that we're in. Just really trying to explore new ways to reach our fan base and build communities. I think the whole world of Web3, and I think a lot of people talk about Web3 without necessarily... I'm not saying I'm an expert in it, but I don't think a lot of people quite understand some of the dynamics of what makes Web3 different from Web2. And the biggest thing to me about Web3 that makes it different is community. If you don't have a community tied to some Web3 initiative, then you're missing it. I'll give you an perfect example. Web2 is about user acquisition on a one-to-one basis.Adam Rymer:So you've got a game like Candy Crush and you spend 50 cents to bring somebody in to Candy Crush and they spend a $1.50 on the game. You've made a dollar in profit and you can just keep doing that cycle all day. And you find new ways to bring more people in and you get a huge user base. There's a community that maybe gets formed online on Reddit boards and whatever else talking about Candy Crush, but the community is not an inherent part of what makes Candy Crush successful. In Web3 it's a little bit different. Web3 is if you bring somebody in, if you spend 50 cents to bring somebody to your Web3 platform and they get there and there isn't a whole community for them to connect to, they're going to leave. There's nothing for them to do. The community actually makes your project valuable.Adam Rymer:So in game terms, it's like bringing somebody in to play Fortnite, and they're just sitting in the queue, waiting for the game to start. And because there aren't 90 other people for you to play the game with, you're just sitting there and you're just waiting and waiting and nothing happens. And so it doesn't matter how much you spend on user acquisition, you didn't get your value for it. So we're going to be spending a lot of time on how do we build our community in new ways? How do we get the information about who our community is? Where do they live? What are they looking for us to do? How do we bring value to them? And how do we find partners that want to provide value back to our community? So how do we find those really interesting partnerships where we can take the Green Wall and OpTic and Envy and work together with those platforms to create really interesting dynamic opportunities together and not try to just have everything operate through our own vertical.Chris Erwin:Well said, something that we talk about at RockWater is the sense of valuing your community and communal ownership. I think that there's been a lot of literature over the past, call it year, particularly as you look at the building of different game franchises, where these users, their engagements, all the dollars that they spend on the games, all their engagement that can drive advertising revenues, right? And in-game purchases, the value that they create for a few stakeholders or investors or game owners, and it really gets siphoned to just a few. So the question then becomes, "Well, how do you reward the community for all the value that they're creating?" And I think there's actually a much bigger win there where if there's more of that two-way street, in terms of value sharing, the overall pie gets a lot bigger and everyone can win. And so I think that's a really, really smart mentality.Chris Erwin:Adam, I'll close it out with this before we get the rapid-fire. I just want to give you some kudos here. I think we were first introduced when I was probably at Big Frame and Awesomeness. So this is probably around maybe like 2015 to 2017 timeframe.Adam Rymer:Wow.Chris Erwin:And I know dating us a bit. And I just remember when I met you, you were running Nerdist and Legendary Networks at the time. I was like, "This is a guy who's a super sharp operator." He totally gets it. He's got both sides of his brain activating. I very much thought on the business side, on the creative side, I thought you really understood talent. You knew traditional entertainment, you knew digital. And I thought you were a very, very special mind and operator. And I remember when you were in your, what I call here in my notes, the exploration phase. So like after Nerdist and before you went to Envy Gaming, I think there was a period where you are wondering what really excites you. What's really going to get you going. And I think a lot of things that come across your plate that you weren't too thrilled about. And I just knew, I mean, I don't know if I ever shared this with you the right thing's going to come across Adam's desk and he's going to crush it. And it's going to be a really exciting moment for his career. Now I look back at all the success that you've had with Envy over the past, less than a couple years, and I am not surprised whatsoever. And I can't wait to see what you do there over the next two to three years. So I wanted to just share that with you.Adam Rymer:Thank you, my friend. It was definitely an adventure after leaving Legendary. There were points where I felt like I just needed to take something for the sake of taking something. I will wholeheartedly recommend people holding out for as long as you possibly can to find the right thing that feels right. If you can. Obviously don't sacrifice your family in your future and all those kinds of things. But if you can find the right thing, it definitely pays off.Chris Erwin:Very well said. All right, Adam. So we're going to get into the rapid-fire six questions. The rules are simple. It is short answer one sentence, or maybe just a couple of words. Do you understand the rules?Adam Rymer:I think so.Chris Erwin:All right. Proudest life moment?Adam Rymer:Birth of my child.Chris Erwin:What do you want to do less of in the second half of 2022?Adam Rymer:Less stress, more outside.Chris Erwin:Less stress, more outside. What one to two things, drive your success?Adam Rymer:Paying attention to everything going on out there.Chris Erwin:Advice for media gaming and Esports execs going into the remainder of this year?Adam Rymer:That's a tough one. Bear with the downside. There's still a huge opportunity in front of all of us, but manage this downside economy at the moment. And there's a bright light, but follow the path.Chris Erwin:Got it. All right. Last couple. Any future startup ambitions? Can you see yourself starting something from scratch in the future?Adam Rymer:For sure. Never a shortage of ideas that I've got. In fact, I think it's probably maybe a problem that I have. I am hopeful that I'll be launching something again sometime soon. We'll see. We'll see. if you got any ideas, send them my way, but yeah, definitely be starting some things soon.Chris Erwin:I think you got enough on your plate. I'm going to hold back on sending you too much, but maybe in a few years time. How can people get in contact with you?Adam Rymer:I'm pretty easy. It's Adam@Envy.ggChris Erwin:Adam. This was a delight. Thanks for being on the podcast.Adam Rymer:For sure. Great to be here. Let's do it again sometime.Chris Erwin:All right. That interview was just awesome. I don't think I've interviewed anyone in the gaming space yet to date. And I stand by my point that I think Adam is one of the sharpest minds that's operating at the intersection of content community in commerce. He's been in the business for a really long time who really understands the business fundamentals. And he's got an incredible set of stories. So a real gift to have him on the show, very excited for what he continues to build with OpTic Gaming. Okay. Also, as many of you know RockWater is market research and strategy advisory for the media technology and commerce industries. We've just introduced a new offering, which allows us to work with more partners. It's called RockWater Plus. It's an offering for companies who want an ongoing consulting partner at a low monthly retainer yet who might also need a partner who can flex up for bigger projects.Chris Erwin:So we've worked with a large range of companies from big and small. Big Fortune 50 like Google and YouTube and big cable networks and studios like Viacom, CBS, and Warner Media to a variety of digital publisher, upstarts and retail brands, and more. So with Plus, we do a variety of things. We can have weekly calls to address any immediate business concerns that you have. We can set up KPI dashboards that allow you to make database decisions around how to best operate and grow your business. We can do ad hoc research, ad hoc financial modeling. If you're doing market sizing need to do P&L forecasts or valuations to assess your business before you go out to investors and so much more. So if you're interested in this and you think it could be helpful shoot us a note at hello@wearerockwater.com. And then lastly, we always love any feedback on our show. If you have ideas for guests for just feedback on the format, shoot us a note at TCUpod@wearerockwater.com. All right, that's it. Everybody. Thanks for listening.The Come Up is written and hosted by me, Chris Erwin, and is a production of RockWater Industries. Please rate and review this show on Apple podcast and remember to subscribe wherever you listen to our show. And if you really dig us, feel free to forward The Come Up to a friend. You can sign up for our company newsletter at wearerockwater.com/newsletter. And you could follow us on Twitter @TCUPod. The Come Up is engineered by Daniel Tureck. Music is by Devon Bryant. Logo and branding is by Kevin Zazzali. And special thanks to Alex Zirin and Felicity Huang from the RockWater team.—Ping us anytime at hello@wearerockwater.com. We love to hear from our readers.

This interview features James Creech, SVP Influencer Strategy at Brandwatch and founder of Paladin. We discuss how former GE CEO Jack Welch inspired James to be a number one category leader, using his down payment on a house to start Paladin, his make or break pivot when the creator economy evolved in 2018, working till 3AM over Christmas to sell his company, why James and I are kindred spirits, and the power of recasting your success.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com---EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders.James Creech:Thomas and Ole and I all put considerable capital into the project. To put that in perspective, at the time, Thomas was getting married. His fiancé, she was amazing to say, "We believe in this dream, and we want to put that money that we would have saved for a big, nice wedding with our family and friends towards investing in this startup." I had been saving to buy a house, so I took essentially a down payment on what I would do to buy a house and said, "I'm all in on the business." Every penny to my name and probably even some I didn't have like went into Paladin. Then, Ole had recently gone out and bought a Tesla. He ended up driving back to the dealership and returning the Tesla, so he could take all of that money and put it into Paladin. So, every single one of us was all in from day one.Chris Erwin:This week's episode features James Creech, SVP influencer strategy at Brandwatch and founder of Paladin. So, James was born in Houston, Texas and grew up in Bakersfield, California with parents who worked in oil and gas. Early on, James was a creative. In high school, he made sketch comedy videos with his friends and thought film and TV was his future. So, he went to USC Film School and ended up running the college TV station, but soon realized that he really enjoyed and was good at the business side of entertainment. His career started at a video advertising startup, where he helped scale the team to over 40 employees, but then moved on to Bent Pixels, which started as an early YouTube MCN.Chris Erwin:While there, James took a big bet on launching a technology SaaS product for the early creator economy, which he ended up spinning out and leading as CEO, until its recent sale to Brandwatch just a few months ago. Today, James leads influencer strategy at Brandwatch and stays busy on the side, advising over 10 different companies and publishing content on his podcast and blog. Some highlights of our chat include how former GE CEO Jack Welch inspired James to be a number one category leader, when he used his down payment on a house to start Paladin, his make or break pivot when the creator economy evolved in 2018, working till 3:00 AM over Christmas to sell his company, why James and I are kindred spirits, and the power of recasting your success. All right, let's get to it. James, thanks for being on The Come Up podcast.James Creech:Hey, Chris. Thank you, excited to be here.Chris Erwin:This has been a bit of a long time coming. I think I was on your podcast a year or two ago, and I said, "James, I'm going to have to get you on mine someday." And, we're finally making it happen. When we were doing the prep, I just got even more excited, because I realized just how cool and exciting your story is. So, excited to share that with the listeners, and as always, let's rewind a bit. So, we're going to go back. Tell us about where you grew up, what your household and what your parents were like.James Creech:So, I was born in Houston, Texas, but grew up mostly in Bakersfield, California. So, I always tell people, "You could probably guess what my parents did for a living, right?" We worked in oil and gas. So, I spent most of my life, yeah, in Bakersfield, from ages four to 18, essentially. My childhood was great. I have a younger brother and sister. We're a close family. We had the chance to do a lot of traveling when we were younger, which was fun. I remember soccer practice and tennis and Cub Scouts, mock trial. We were involved in a lot of activities, and our parents were very much a part of those activities and the stuff that we enjoyed as kids.Chris Erwin:Quick interjection, how far did you get in Cub Scouts?James Creech:To the end of Cub Scouts. Never made it to boy Scouts.Chris Erwin:Did you achieve the Webelos badge?James Creech:Yeah, I was a Webelos. I think that's about as far as I made it.Chris Erwin:Nice. I did one up you a bit. I got to Eagle Scout with my twin brother.James Creech:Congrats. Wow, that's a huge achievement.Chris Erwin:It's a lot of work. Back to you, so grew up in Bakersfield, had some younger siblings. Early on, what were your passions? What were you into? Was there any glimpse into the career that you have today?James Creech:I think when I was a kid, I used to tell people what I wanted to be when I grew up, I said I wanted to be the governor of California. I don't know where that came from. I don't know that I have any sort of interest or passion in politics. I think as I got older, I would say I lacked the moral flexibility to pursue a career in that field, but was interested in politics and government early on. Somehow, that morphed into maybe being interested in law and going to law school at a certain point. I was pre-law at USC, so that was certainly a passion. I ended up doing the mock trial, as I mentioned, and then interned at a law firm and realized, hey, a lot of love for the legal profession, a lot of great friends who are lawyers, et cetera, but that probably wasn't the path for me.James Creech:In high school, the thing that really captured my intention was making videos with my friends, essentially comedy shorts. It's interesting, the timing, right? I was inspired by SNL and all these other amazing sketch comedy programs. Had I been a generation later, let alone maybe even five years later, the videos I made probably would've ended up on YouTube and now TikTok. But, because of the timing, I just made videos with my friends, and we made DVDs and shared them with our friends and family. But, it wasn't any sort of big distribution.Chris Erwin:It's never too late, James. It's never too late.James Creech:Yeah. There's an archive of a lot of old, embarrassing footage somewhere.Chris Erwin:Yeah, IP libraries are in high demand, high valuation. So, there could be something there.James Creech:So, that's what I was doing and figured, okay, well, I'm interested in media and entertainment. I applied and was accepted into the USC Film School and thought, okay, I'm going to go into film production, right? Fast forward a little bit, and I realized in college, well, I'm way more interested in the business side than I am in say the creative or the technical side. The stuff I liked doing in high school with my friends was making videos, which was really more about the experience of being together, less about the filmmaking process. But, yeah, that was kind of the early days.Chris Erwin:Yeah. So, I have to ask, what was your role in doing these sketch comedy or sketch segments? Were you a director? Were you a writer? Were you an actor? Was it all the above? And, I also want to hear, if you just have an example of one of the things that you guys did, I'd love to hear about it.James Creech:Oh, boy. So, I was an instigator. A ringleader is maybe the right word. We did all sorts of stuff. We were filming on these really small handheld cameras. I would certainly come up with sketch ideas and get my friends involved. We would shoot them. I would edit them. We would share them. There's plenty of stories that I can tell you, many of which are maybe too embarrassing for the podcast. So, we'll save that for a beer sometime, but one that definitely stands out is we kind of faked this kidnapping of our friend. He had a new girlfriend. He was really invested in that relationship, not spending as much time with our buddies. So, I said, "Okay, let's go to his house one afternoon, dressed all in black like ninjas," and his parents knew. We gave everyone a heads up, but we went in and kidnapped him for the day, which was a lot of fun. So, that's probably one that stands out.Chris Erwin:It's funny, hearing you tell these stories. So, I just started listening to This Is Important Podcast from the crew of Workaholics. They started just by making different sketch videos. They were filming wrestling matches in their backyard. Just hearing about some of their stories and how they started, and then they talk about, yeah, and then we sold the show to Viacom. How did this happen in Comedy Central?James Creech:Yeah, I wish that was the journey, was certainly inspired by Derrick Comedy and some of the other early, early YouTube sketch groups. We didn't get that far, right? It was fun to run around in our backyard and make videos, and that's where it ended for us.Chris Erwin:Yeah, cool. All right, so you get into USC Film School in 2012. I believe that you end up with a marketing and poli sci focus. But, tell us about you showed up at school. What was your initial focus? And, then it seems like it pivoted as you started to understand that you realized the appeal of the business side of entertainment, versus the creative side.James Creech:Yeah, so I went to USC, 2008. So, it was right around the housing crisis, financial crisis, which I don't know, as an 18 year old, you're fairly oblivious to. But, I was passionate about filmmaking. I was excited to be in the film program, also in the poli sci school. So, I was kind of running this dual track of, okay, well, I'm earning my political science degree, but I'm also taking these film courses and think that's what I want to do after I graduate. I got involved at the college TV station, called Trojan Vision, which is the largest TV station in the country. We broadcast to over a million homes, and I just kind of fell into it and fell in love with it. So, I was a producer on a show my freshman year, worked hard, got promoted to senior producer, second semester.James Creech:I was like, "Hey, I really like this TV thing. I like being involved at the station, meeting other students," applied for a staff position the next year and became an executive producer of a show. Okay, my first experience running a show, working in live television, it's exciting. It's the adrenaline rush of making something go on the air Monday through Friday. Through that experience, said, "Okay, I like the organization of the show, coming up with new ideas." We were experimenting with new technologies like HD broadcasts and live remotes and stuff at the time. So, I was like, "Okay, I'm excited about this," and people kept saying, "Maybe you should take some business classes." And, I thought to myself as a sophomore, well, hey, no. I'm doing the film path. I've got political science. I don't know what the business thing's about.James Creech:But, luckily USC has a very flexible structure and approach to curriculum. So, you could kind of dabble and take a couple classes. So, I said, "What's the worst that could happen? I'll take a business class or two," found out right away, hey, this is where I should be, and ended up transferring into the business school as a junior. So, I'm taking these intro 101 classes surrounded by freshmen. So, I had a very different mindset, let's say, going to the business school. I'm really excited to be here. There are certain things I want to learn. I'm finding ways to apply this over at the television station. I had been promoted to the general manager, so I was running the whole station at this point, which is a real budget.Chris Erwin:That's a lot of responsibility at a young age. What you said, it's one of the largest college broadcast stations in the US, and you're going ... Is there live programming Monday to Friday? That's a big deal.James Creech:Money through Friday, yeah, hours and hours of content. I was working essentially a full time load, basically 40 hours a week while going to school. But, I loved it. I loved every minute of it, creating television, working with students, and making something out of nothing, and putting it on the air every night, sometimes better, sometimes worse. But, I loved it.Chris Erwin:Okay, so you start taking these business classes, and right away, you're like, "This is a good fit." Then, what are you starting to think about what you want to do when you graduate?James Creech:Between my junior and senior year of college, I got an internship at Blizzard Entertainment. I grew up as a gamer. I wasn't necessarily a desktop gamer. I was more of a console gamer, but loved the opportunity to get exposure to another form of entertainment and work in a bigger company and try to decide what was right for me. So, as I was going through that process, had a great summer internship experience, came back, and had the opportunity to say, "Do I continue as the general manager of the TV station one more year as a senior?" But, kind of realized, maybe it was time to pass on the baton. So, it was hard to say goodbye, but I ended up getting another internship opportunity at this ad tech startup, this company in LA that was helping brands and media agencies promote video content on YouTube.James Creech:This was pre TruView, very early days, helping to make videos go viral. I was just, I guess, really interested in social media, but also, a USC alum was the COO. She was hiring. It was close to campus. It paid. I'm interested in this career path, but also it checks a lot of the boxes as a student that I want to make sure it's a good fit. So, I fell into that internship opportunity and just got hooked right away on the adrenaline rush of working in early stage companies. So, meanwhile, I had been recruiting, trying to figure out what do I want to do after I graduate. I had out law school or becoming a lawyer from my internship opportunity. I realized, okay, I'm more interested in the business side, so I'm gravitating towards that.James Creech:I like this startup company I'm working at, but I had always thought of myself as going into corporate America. So, I did recruitment on campus. I was offered a job to do business consulting and move to New York, which was kind of my dream. I was very excited as an almost 22 year old getting ready to graduate, moved to the Big Apple, and have this, what seemed like a really exciting, glamorous job at the time with travel and everything else. But, long story short, fell into working at Channel Factory, this ad tech startup, loved the team and the mission and the opportunity. They convinced me to stick around, so ended up declining the offer to do consulting and stay on the startup trajectory.Chris Erwin:I think what I'm starting to see here is you're on a unique path where you have both the creative know how and understanding, as well as the business savvy. That's very rare in Hollywood, right? I think of people like Bob Iger at Disney that has both of those sides of the brains, but it's a pretty rare profile, which probably explains a lot of the success that you've had in a very young career to date. Okay, so you go to Channel Factory, and what do you focus on there? Because, it seems like you start at the company when it's pretty early on, and they're on a really high growth trajectory. And, you facilitated some incredible wins there. Tell us about that.James Creech:Yeah, it was ground floor, right? It was in the founder's living room, essentially. We were building a business out of thin air, which was enticing to me and kind of felt similar to live TV production. Okay, there's this excitement. There's this adrenaline rush. You can have a big impact. So, I was basically the fifth employee, came in as an operator, doing a little bit of everything, strategic projects, built out ad operations group, hiring, training, commercial ops. I ended up working quite a bit coaching and supporting and at some points managing some of the sales team.Chris Erwin:This is all in like your young mid-20s, right? Because, you just listed off a lot of different things.James Creech:Yeah. We were all young, for the most part at that time. We were early 20s. It was a young company. It was an exciting opportunity in an early stage of the business. We ended up, of course, bringing in some more senior experienced folks, but there was this meritocracy to an extent, this excitement for youth and passion. So, we were all kind of figuring it out as we went along, and I was this person who didn't know anything going into it, but was just excited about where the company was going and the type of impact that I could have. So, we grew that business to whatever, 40 plus people, and close to or exceeding eight figure revenues. We opened offices in New York and Chicago. It was this wild ride for two and a half years, so learned a lot of lessons, both good and bad.Chris Erwin:Can you elaborate on some of those lessons?James Creech:I learned a lot about how to treat people, right? I didn't always agree with the founder and the leadership at Channel Factory. I had some great people that I learned from and supported me. Then, there were certainly some differences of opinion at times. I would say the other thing is it taught me a lot about the type of leader that I wanted to be and the type of business that I wanted to build one day. It's instructive to learn what not to do sometimes, as it is to learn what to do. But, I got great contacts and relationships. A lot of the people at Channel Factory have also gone on to do some amazing things, many of whom have become very talented entrepreneurs. So, it was this kind of amazing talent pool and this breeding ground for incredible individuals who were passionate about digital video and making an impact on the space, and that's been exciting to be a part of. There were certainly some things that we did really well, and being a young company, made a lot of mistakes, myself included. And, you learn from that and keep going.Chris Erwin:I love what you said. I always repeat this in interviews. It's very important to learn what not to do or what you don't like. In the beginning of my career where I was an investment banker, I worked with some incredible people and developed some incredible skills. But, there was also a lot of experiences and things that I was exposed to that I really did not enjoy, I thought were not good influences to the rest of my career. I consider that very valuable. When I talk to young people that are emerging from the undergrad and entering the workforce, it's this thought of, I have to nail my first few jobs, and that sets up everything for me. The answer, no, I don't recommend that.Chris Erwin:Try new things and experiment, and if it doesn't go well, that's totally okay. And, you're going to learn from that. That was some of the most valuable experiences for me. So, I like what you just said there, James. I think that's spot on. So, after a few years there, you then end up at Bent Pixels, where you also realized some great wins for the company. So, tell us about some of the work that you were doing there and how this set you up for your first big entrepreneurial venture, which is Paladin.James Creech:So, I entered Bent Pixels as an operator. That's what I had done at Channel Factory. The company at the time was a multichannel network in the heyday of MCNs, right? So, there was this time of excitement around Maker Studios and Fullscreen and Awesomeness TV, and Machinima, this early wave of digital disruptors helping YouTube talent grow their audience, monetize their content, figure out the early stages of influencer marketing, and what now we've grown to know as the creator economy. But, this was ground zero, right? You remember. You were there, too. So, this was the very, very early stages of what these future digital businesses were going to look like.Chris Erwin:And, tell us exactly, what did Bent Pixels do specifically? Were they a software platform for the early creator economy?James Creech:They did three things, right? They were a traditional YouTube multichannel network, so they provided services to YouTube channel owners and creators to help them monetize their content. They offered digital rights management services, so they would help IP rights holders monetize and enforce anti-piracy against their content on YouTube. So, they were using the content ID tools and additional manual services to help manage those content libraries. Then, they did audience development, so they were doing channel management and audience growth for brands that wanted help with their YouTube presence, so not unlike Fullscreen, Maker, many others at the time, right? So, when we came in, Bent Pixels was probably a top 30 global MCN. It was probably in the top five for rights management. I don't know, hard to say where it fell in the audience development or channel management services business, just because so many people were trying to get into that space.James Creech:We were doing all of this and facilitating it through technology, right? So, when I came into the business, I mentioned I started as an operator. And, I looked around, and I said, "This business doesn't need operators, right? We have a very capable COO, a general manager." I was looking for ways to do process improvement, cut costs, or optimize systems. There just wasn't much of that to do. The company was profitable and growing, and it had been fairly well managed, right? Well, what the business needs is growth. That's completely new to me.James Creech:I don't really know the space I was coming from, I say is the demand side. I was working with brands and media agencies, and all of a sudden, I kind of end up on the supply side, right? Now, I'm working with talent and content creators. This business doesn't really need all of the skills that I necessarily have historically had. So, we've got to figure this out, right? So, I just reached out to as many people as I could in my network and then through LinkedIn and said, "Hey, I'm curious to learn more about this space. Are you up for getting together for coffee or having a conversation?"Chris Erwin:This is very interesting. What was your primary networking tool? Were you using LinkedIn back in the day for this?James Creech:I was super early to LinkedIn, and I would just reach out to people. I would say, "Hey, I think what you're doing is really interesting. I think this space is early on. There's probably a lot we could learn from each other. Are you open to meeting for coffee or jumping on a call?" And, you'd be surprised, so many people said yes, especially all over the world, right? I was meeting people in Europe, Latin America, Asia-Pacific. It was this amazing opportunity to meet these other entrepreneurs who were like, "Yeah, everyone's early. We're all trying to figure this out. What are the things that are working for you? What are the challenges?" So, it was a lot of just connecting and sharing and learning from one another. But, obviously LinkedIn has changed a lot, A, over the years, B, post-Microsoft acquisition. But, in those early days, I was a young, snotty nosed kid, very earnestly trying to meet people and be helpful to the extent that I could. And, people were very kind to share their time and experience with me.Chris Erwin:I love that. You and I were actually just talking about this, I think, on LinkedIn. I just started a 30 day LinkedIn challenge. I think LinkedIn is one of the most powerful social networking platforms for professionals, hands down. I've been pretty active on it for the past few years, but our team is definitely ramping up our investment in it in terms of the type of content that we're creating. We've been doing a lot of experimenting, as well as the cadence of content as well.James Creech:Which is amazing. I can't wait to follow your content journey. I did something very similar in 2021, where I wrote every weekday, and it was such a stretch goal. I learned a ton from it, which we can talk about at some point, but I love LinkedIn, very supportive of the platform's evolution into becoming more of a content destination, and like you said, showcasing professional stories and helping people connect. It's getting back to some of those early roots of what it helped me pursue in my career.Chris Erwin:I love that. Well, maybe we'll have to do a mini series of a podcast about LinkedIn best practices. So, you start reaching out to all these different contacts across the world, focused on how do we share mutual learnings, and how do we grow? So, what did you learn? Then, what did you take from your learnings and apply to Bent Pixels?James Creech:So, what I kept hearing was everyone was facing similar challenges, especially as we tried to figure out how to scale. You have to remember at the time, people were focused on initially hundreds of creators. Then, it became thousands of creators. At the highest levels of Maker, Awesomeness, we were managing tens of thousands of creators. Bent Pixels had tens of thousands of YouTube channel partners that they were supporting. This was before YouTube had the infrastructure tools, resources, support to help those creators themselves. So, MCNs were the first line of defense. The demand, the excitement for the space was so dynamic that it was this gold rush mentality, this exciting time of help and enable as many channel creators as possible.James Creech:So, we had been building some software internally at Bent Pixels at the time out of necessity to figure out, okay, how do we find the right creators? How do we manage those relationships, pay them accurately and on time? Eventually, that would become, how do we manage branded content projects with them? Everyone else was doing the same thing. They were trying to build tools in house. They were trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. How do we take Salesforce and DocuSign and all these other tools off the shelf, stitch them together into this Franken-suite, and hope for the best? And, it was expensive, and it wasn't working. So, I kept hearing this, and I thought to myself, well, hey, if everyone's facing the same problems, and we're building what to me feels like a pretty good software solution for this, that should be the business, right? I was a big acolyte of Jack Welch back in the days. I would read a lot of his books, this legendary CEO and leader of GE.James Creech:One of the things that stuck out to me is, if you're not one or two in a category, you should cut it, right? So, it just occurred to me at every leadership meeting, I was like, "We have an opportunity. There's this untapped market potential to build software for this new breed of creative companies, and no one's doing it right. So, we should be first to market. We could be a leader there. It's great that we have this profitable growing business, but we're never going to win, right? We're not going to be one or two in the category. We're going to be ... Maybe we move from 30 to 20 or five to three, right?" So, I was advocating for that. Now, the way it was perceived on the other side is, well, wait a minute. We've built this business, at that point I think over five or six years. It is growing. It is profitable.James Creech:All these other companies have raised massive VC investment. They have a lot more resources. We're happy with our business, and we want to keep developing it, but we're not going to bet the house on James's crazy idea, right? They were advocating, hey, let's get into paid media. It's what a lot of other people are doing at the time. There's a big opportunity. I had that background from Channel Factory. So, they kept saying, "No, forget about that. Focus on paid media." I don't know. I was persistent, probably very annoying, young naivete, saying, "I really believe in this idea. Just give me a shot." They shut me down a few times and just said, "No, let's focus on the paid media thing."James Creech:Until, finally one day in some leadership meeting, with the support of our CTO Ole at the time, they said, "You know what?" I think maybe just to shut me up, "Okay, fine, right? You can have two months, 60 days. Give it a shot. Let's see what happens, right? And, if it doesn't work," which they fully expected it wouldn't, "After the field experiment, we'll go back to focusing on paid media." And, I said, "Sounds like a fair deal to me, right? I'll take that bet." So, in those next two months, I signed Maker Studios, Defy Media, Me Too, Networks, and 2btube, which would later go on to become the largest Spanish language creator community in the world. So, all of a sudden, they said, "Wait a minute. This is really interesting. We didn't think you would sign a customer, let alone four of the top players in the space. This is absolutely what we're focusing on, and you should do this full time."Chris Erwin:Did you have to evolve the technology product to service these clients as well as reposition your services to actually close these prospects? So, you had to do both, because you didn't have a technology background before this. You hadn't built tech products. You weren't a project manager, but you had to become this for this new role, correct?James Creech:Yeah. I am passionate about technology, had never been in product, had been adjacent to it, but said, "Yeah, we've got to figure this out." We built a software application that's meant for internal use. We have to figure out access rights, provisioning, white labeling, to make this an externally consumable tool. We need to figure out how to price it. We have to figure out how to sell this to our essentially competitors, right? We were working with these companies that were also in many respects offering the same services or going after the same talent. So, in some conversations, that was a bit awkward, right?James Creech:It said, "Well, how do we know that you're not going to take this data or use this technology to better your business and not ours, right?" So, that was a tricky thing to dance around and navigate. Huge props due to our technical team, Ole our CTO, [inaudible 00:25:56], a lot of our early engineering design product resources who were making this thing happen behind the scenes. I was out there kind of selling the dream, but they were the ones executing on this. A lot of it was just need finding, listening to the market. What do you need? Does the current tool in some form serve that? How do we adapt it to fit what you need? And, what else should we be building in the future so that we can help you get there?Chris Erwin:Hey, listeners, this is Chris Erwin, your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work, and it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it, everybody. Let's get back to the interview. It's interesting, because just listening to this story, one version would be ... And, James builds this incredible business at Bent Pixels, and he does that for the next 10 years of his career. But, the reality is that actually, you're there for a couple years, and then you found Paladin. So, after this initial two months of success, what actually caused you to say, "Hey, I want to break out and create a different suite of technology tools for the creator economy?"James Creech:So, I think in success, we got even more excited and probably a bit persistent on my idea that, okay, this is really working. We're now signing more and more customers. We're going to put more resources into this. Now, we are the market leader. We're first to market. We're building a name for ourselves in this category. People are rethinking the perception of Bent Pixels as a software company, as a technology vendor, whereas to creators, there's still this brand identity around being an MCN, being a services business, being a media company. But, I'm kind of casting Bent Pixels in this new light and trying to position or change the branding to be this enterprise software tool. Meanwhile, that business segment is growing. Engineers are expensive, so we're adding a lot of headcount to service the need and the customers.James Creech:It got to a certain point where I'm still advocating, hey, let's sell off or shut down the other business units, because look around. A number of other acquisitions had happened. Awesomeness was acquired by Dreamworks. Maker Studios sold to Disney. There was all this M&A activity happening. So, I'm like, "Okay, it's probably a good time to think about what does an exit look like for the media business?" Then, we can focus. We can really double down on this technology play. So, I was advocating for that. The rest of the leadership team said, "It's very clear that you're passionate about this. We don't necessarily all share the same vision or belief in that strategy, but obviously, the way you run a media company and a tech startup, a high growth tech company, require different fundamentals, principles, capital. So, maybe these businesses should live on their own, right?"James Creech:So, that's when the idea was floated that we should spin it out, right? So, it was at the time myself, Ole, our CTO, and I had convinced my good friend and partner in crime, Thomas Kramer, who worked with me back in the Channel Factory days. So, he and I kept in touch. We would catch up and talk about a lot of these challenges. I said, "Would you come over here and lead product for us?" He got excited about that vision and that opportunity, so it was really the three of us advocating for this opportunity. Initially, I was kind of resistant, to be honest. I said, "No, like, I think this is where the business is going. We should focus on this." Ultimately, saw the light that, yes, okay, we should separate these companies.James Creech:For a long time, I wanted the software business to continue to be called Bent Pixels, and that maybe the media company should rebrand as something, Millennial Studios. There were some other ideas that were floated, but after whatever, six months of back and forth and working it out cooperatively as a team, we decided, okay, Thomas and Ole and James will basically buy the software IP and spin out and form a new company, and then will rebrand it, come up with a new name. Bent Pixels will continue as a customer of Paladin, but there will not be any formal relationship between the two businesses. I wanted to be very clear that Paladin is its own company and eliminate that conflict of interest idea. I think Bent Pixels was very happy to say, "Okay, we can offload these expenses from developers and sales people and everything else off our books, focus on our knitting, and get back to the growth of the media business." We worked that all out to happen April of 2016. So, that was when we took the leap and said, "Okay, we're going to set out on our own."Chris Erwin:Did you raise outside capital to give you and your two other founders the ability to purchase the software, purchase the IP, and kickstart what you called Paladin in April, 2016?James Creech:We didn't. We thought about it, but the way we originally structured the deal was Thomas and Ole and I all put considerable capital into the project. Then, some of our partners from Bent Pixels also came in as angel investors. They said, "We like you guys. We believe in what you are doing. We want to support you." So, they were kind enough to give us a little bit of seed capital to help us get through the early days of burn and very kindly help us figure out how to set up our books and transfer the employee leases and all these things that as first time entrepreneurs, you have to figure out. So, they were very helpful and kind and patient with us. But, Thomas and Ole and I were pretty much all in.James Creech:So, to put that in perspective, at the time Thomas was getting married, and he had promised his fiance this amazing wedding. She was amazing to say, "We believe in this dream, and as part of starting our life together, we want to put that money that we would have saved for a big nice wedding with our family and friends towards investing in this startup, right?" So, that was Thomas's contribution. I had been saving to buy a house, so I took essentially a down payment on what I would do to buy a house and said, "I'm all in on the business."James Creech:Every penny to my name and probably even some I didn't have like went into Paladin. Then, Ole has the best story of all, was living in Norway. He's Norwegian and had recently gone out and bought a Tesla, right? Because, he loved the sustainability mission. He loved electric cars, this beautiful new vehicle, right when they had first come out, 2016. He ended up driving back to the dealership and returning the Tesla, so he could take all of that money and put it into Paladin. So, every single one of us was all in from day one.Chris Erwin:Dude, this is wild, because typically, VC backed founders, if the founders have a new business idea, they will mitigate the risk by saying, "Okay, I'm going to contribute a significant amount of my time, right?" It could be a few years in building out this venture, but they're not putting in their own capital. They're going to get capital from third parties, venture funds. Then, that capital is going to be at risk. You are essentially doubly invested with your time and your own savings. But, I think what that means is that you probably had so much belief in what you are building that you wouldn't have done it otherwise.Chris Erwin:I think that belief is clearly very powerful, and for all of you guys to have had that, where you have Thomas contributing his wedding funds, and you have Ole contributing his Tesla funds, and you're even getting from former Bent Pixel employees, angel investment. I think that shows there's really something there. It's almost like with those dynamics, it would've been easy to raise venture capital, because they would've looked at the founders and said, "Oh, my God, their gumption that this is going to happen is so powerful, we want to be in." But, probably better for you guys, because I know you will tell the story of how you sold the company. You guys owned the majority of the equity. I had never knew that story, James. I never knew those dynamics around your business. That's incredible.James Creech:Thinking back to the time, imagining how I felt, I remember being 25. Your goals and your priorities at 25 and whatever, early 30s, are very different. But, something inside me just said, "We have to do this, right? We have the right team. It's the right time. It's the right opportunity." You look at the data. Most successful entrepreneurs are in their 30s, 40s, 50s, right? They've had-Chris Erwin:The average entrepreneur is older than 40.James Creech:Right, and they've had time to build a network. They've had experiences, failures along the way. I had not thought of myself as an entrepreneur up until this point, but something just tugged at me where I was like, "I can't imagine doing anything else." Although I had historically been very risk averse, I was just like, "We can't miss this, right? We have to do it, and we have to do it now. And, if it means going all in, if that's what it takes, then yeah, let's do it. There's no better time to do it than when we're young." So, having that conviction, which I think again is a lot of ... We didn't know any better, right? We were just hoping for the best.Chris Erwin:Which, actually I think is a good thing, to be delusional. You have to be delusional as an entrepreneur. The odds are stacked against you.James Creech:Big time.Chris Erwin:And, you are delusional, but it worked in your favor.James Creech:Yeah, exactly.Chris Erwin:So, you start the company. All right, you all contribute your capital. Paladin is now a thing. So, what are the first steps? Do you rent an office together? Is it, okay, we've got five new hires that we've got to make? What did that first year look like for you?James Creech:Yeah, terrifying, right? You've just jumped off the cliff, and you have to figure out how to build the airplane. Everyone was excited. I don't know if other people were nervous, but we had engineers. We had sales people. We had product folks who were working with us.Chris Erwin:What was the total team size from the beginning?James Creech:It was small. I want to say it was eight to 10, right? We had three founders and then the engineering team and then some of the business folks in LA. We had an office. So, we continued to rent the office. Basically, everything that was in Los Angeles became Paladin, and Bent Pixels had historically been based out of Las Vegas, so they just kept their operations. But, yeah, we had the office lease. We had all these salaries and payroll we had to be responsible for. So, all of a sudden, it's a lot of responsibility overnight to take eight plus people's livelihoods into account. We were losing money every month, right? We're looking at the burn. We knew we had to sell like crazy to just get out of the hole. Our reserves were not very high. We're talking about, we started this business with a few hundred thousand dollars, not any sort of big investment and no VC capital. So, it was all our money and very quickly needed to figure out, okay, how do we make this thing work?Chris Erwin:What were some of the early proof points where it was, okay, this thing is going to exist for more than just six months? What were some of those early wins? And, did you ever think about raising venture capital?James Creech:So, we sold like crazy in order to get to the break even point, and that was 100% of my time and energy in those early days. I think one of the biggest turning points was closing Awesomeness TV. So, I was working with a lot of your former friends and colleagues, Matt Levin, Parker Jones, Kelly Day, also worked a lot with Jen Robinson, the CTO. This was the first six figure deal that we closed as Paladin. I'm trying to remember if that's true. Maker Studios, I think also ended up being a six figure deal, but I think the original commitment was smaller. So, when I closed the Awesomeness deal, it was the biggest customer we'd ever signed. It was like, wow, we're a real business all of a sudden, that this huge venture backed company is going to make a bet on this small startup and offload a lot of its cost. Awesomeness was spending significant sums of money and engineering headcount on these processes at the time.Chris Erwin:Awesomeness spent a lot of money back in the day.James Creech:And, look, they were managing probably the largest network in the world at a certain point, 90,000 creators. We said, "We want to come in and make that easier for you." I think in many respects, we could. Jen Robinson and others saw the opportunity and believed in us and worked really closely with us to make that happen. But, that was absolutely a turning point of, okay, we're signing, as customers, some of the biggest players in the world. They're making this bet on us, and these are real contracts with real budget behind them. That was certainly a turning point.Chris Erwin:This is great to hear, considering the current macro-economy that we're going into, right? So, we are recording this podcast in the middle of May. We have faced, over the last quarter, the 1.4% decline in GDP in the US. I think there's a lot of signals of the global macro-economy slowing. Out of China, there's supply chain issues, rising interest rates, inflation. You name it. I say all of this, because companies are going to need to start thinking about ... I think access to venture capital is going to become a lot more challenging.Chris Erwin:So, what's the best form of capital? It's revenue, and it's having a business that works. So, you guys, that was your approach in 2016, which is, if we're going to finance this business, we're going to create a product that meets the market need, and we're going to sell it successfully. Then, so you closed some big deals like Awesomeness. So, that early validation must have been very rallying the team, and we got something here, right? So, it seems like that success continues for a bit. But, then there's a point in your business where you were telling me a pivot had to happen, right? So, kind of tell that journey from that founding. You have some initial success like the deal you just mentioned, and then what is happening until you realize something's got to change here?James Creech:So, first of all, I love putting it in context, because at the time, people would ask us, "Oh, are you venture backed, right?" As if that were a sign of stability, right? We would do info-sec evaluations through Disney, through Viacom for Awesomeness. People wanted to make sure we weren't going to go out of business tomorrow. I remember thinking to myself, yeah, I would tell people kind of jokingly, "Yeah, we raise money from our customers, and we call it revenue. We have this different model. We're bootstrapped. It's very unusual," and people got a kick out of that. But, to me, it was, okay, we got over the hump. Now, we're break even, profitable. We're reinvesting everything back into the business. So, we closed the deal. We hire another engineer. We hire a new salesperson. But, you had asked, did you ever entertain the idea of raising capital?James Creech:We did. Probably the most serious thought we had around it was we looked at potentially acquiring Epoxy. I don't know if you remember those guys back in the day. They had raised a significant sum. They were great entrepreneurs with a good idea that was probably just a few years ahead of their time, backed by some of the biggest VCs here in LA. I think they raised something like $8 million and just were having a tough time figuring out the business model. This was before people thought, well, can we get creators to pay for anything? And, I really liked Juan and Jason, and they introduced us to Mark Suster at Upfront. We spent a lot of time together, saying, "Does it make sense for Paladin to get an additional capital infusion and then acquire the Epoxy asset and turn it into an enterprise product?"James Creech:We figured we have relationships. We know how to sell this. For a variety of reasons, we decided not to proceed, and it's a shame. They ended up selling the business to someone else, but that was the most serious discussion we had around it. The business certainly changed significantly over the years, right? So, in those early days, we were primarily focused on helping multichannel networks and other digital businesses, so talent management companies and agencies, figure out how to manage digital talent. First, it was YouTube. Very quickly, it became a multi-platform world. So, it was Vine for a little bit, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, et cetera. Then, you have things like Twitch come on the scene, and obviously later in our history, TikTok. So, the business was becoming much more multi-platform. The YouTube MCN business evolved significantly, right?James Creech:There were phases or stages to that business, but it became very clear that the 1.0 model of mass aggregation and monetizing off of the passive AdSense revenue was a bit of a dinosaur, and the new business model was focused on branded content and paid media and other incremental ways to build a business around the creative portfolios that these talent were were producing. So, we knew our business needed to change to keep up. The biggest signal was influencer marketing, right? If you looked at, well, how are creators making money, sure, they make millions of dollars a year in YouTube AdSense revenue, but there's this enormous opportunity from brands in branded content.James Creech:Then, of course later on, we'd see e-commerce, but at the time, we said, "Okay, we need to build tools to help our customers and ideal future customers support this activity. So, let's build better influencer identification and discovery tools. Let's build a much more robust CRM for not just agencies, but for brands. Let's think about creating sales materials, because people are spending so much time generating pitch decks, right?" I remember running influencer campaigns, and it was, okay, go ask the influencer for screenshots and put that into a PowerPoint presentation. Email it over to the client, and then they're going to ask for revisions.James Creech:You go back and forth, right? Why don't we just tap into the social APIs, pull all that data on demand, and create this robust real time reporting around the campaign, so that, A, you deliver better results, and B, you can actually monitor and optimize campaign performance in real time. So, that was really the direction that we started to go, was saying, "Okay, as much as we still want to support these customers and this opportunity, we're slightly modifying our strategy, and we're adjusting course to go pursue this influencer marketing opportunity, because it's brands and agencies figuring out how to work with creative talent in the digital economy."Chris Erwin:Got it. That was a big pivot that happened around what time, James?James Creech:Around 2018, 2019.Chris Erwin:And, so did that cause some real friction at your company? Did you have to rethink, hey, do we have the right team? Do we have the right sales strategy? Do we have the right relationships? Do we have to rethink how we're doing coverage? Do we need to build new products and services? And, do we have the right director of engineering to do that? So, what were some of those big key decisions that you had to work through as you pivoted the business?James Creech:Well, certainly, changing the identity and the branding of the business a bit, also the product offering, right? So, again, going back to need finding, what do the customers want? How do we build that out? It's easy to build something for one customer, but how do we build something for hundreds or thousands of customers? And, what is the right team composition that will help us to get there, right? It's classic innovator's dilemma of, well, we're still very dependent on these existing customers and their business needs. And, we want to continue to support that. But, at the same time, we need to be investing in this new direction. And, there were some hard conversations and hard decisions that came about from that, right? Some people on the team were very excited, made the transition easily. Other people said, "Maybe this is my stop on the train, and I'm going to get off and pursue other opportunities."James Creech:Other people were excited about the direction and couldn't make it work, or performance started to slip as we shifted strategy. So, you have to make some tough calls, but the team worked really hard through that time period to help us change course. It's not the most dramatic pivot in the world, but it certainly felt like a big shift at the time. It didn't happen overnight. We've got this North Star. We're going to move towards it over the course of 12, 24 months. And, I remember we got our entire team together in Poland. We've historically had a big operations center for engineering in Kraków. We brought the whole team in to Poland and said, "This is our vision. This is what we're going to build together." I think that was really energizing, to harness the energy of everyone and say, "We have this shared mission and objective. Here's why we believe it's going to drive business value, better opportunity." And, it wasn't easy, but certainly was the right choice to start to move in that direction.Chris Erwin:I like that a lot. We had a team reflection last week, and we're realizing that just having run an advisory business for five years that has gone through a rebranding and a transformation in the last couple years, as we're entering this new macro-economy and just also thinking about who are the clients we work with when we provide certain services? What feels great and is right in our wheelhouse, versus what feels like we're stretched or doing something different? And, there was a big kumbaya moment where we came together. To better service our clients in the industry, we need to really rethink things. It was some tough conversations, but when you just face it head on, and then you empower your team and be like, "You guys are all here for a reason. What are your ideas for how to fix this? And, how do we all rally behind that?"Chris Erwin:And, it was a very powerful moment. I'm saying that, because it feels like when you had this conversation with your engineering team in Poland, you have to face this stuff head on. There's certain people, like you said, this is their stop on the train, and they're going to get off. But, for those that it's the right fit, keep going forward. That's best for everybody. I particularly feel very reinvigorated after this conversation, and I see this incredible potential for success going forward. I have a much smaller business than what you have. Did you feel coming out of that, you're invigorated, you're excited? And, did you have that same feeling when you first founded Paladin of, we got this, we're going to crush this? There's no doubt in the world. Were you feeling that?James Creech:I wish I could say yes, but I don't think so. Founding a business and running a business is an emotional journey. I'm so privileged to have two amazing co-founders, because sometimes you have a bad day, or you lose sight of what you're building towards. They can help lift you up, and vice versa. But, there were some tough times around 2018, 2019, where we were making this change, because the environment, the business conditions around us had changed. We realized we needed to do something to continue to grow and to survive. Again, I started the business with youthful idealism and ambition. Sometimes, we set really high goals for ourselves, and we don't always live up to them. I'm still very proud of what we built and how we had done it, but it's easy to move the goal post on yourself.James Creech:So, looking at that time in our journey, I remember we were committed to figuring it out and moving forward. But, I have to tell you honestly, there were some very tough times in those years of ... Are we doing the right thing? Are we making the right choice? And, are we going to get through it? Because, it was really challenging. Once it started to work, absolutely, it felt amazing, right? Things really started to click in 2020, and I had more passion and enthusiasm for the business than I had back in 2016. It re-lit this fire in us of, okay, we got through the hard work, the two years of making this change. We see where it's going. We're rebuilding in this new direction, and it's fun. We're hitting our stride. Everything's growing really quickly. We're bringing on new customers, new team members. We're winning, and that's the exciting part. But, in the slog of making that transition, it wasn't always fun. That's for sure.Chris Erwin:I hear that, but I think you're right. There's just something as an entrepreneur and a founder and a CEO. You have to trust your gut. Are we having fun? Does this feel right? You can have all the KPI dashboards in the world and follow all the numbers, but there's just some intuition that's really important. As I reflect in my career, there's moments where I can specifically say I felt differently about a business decision, and I didn't listen to my gut, and it was a major miss. So, as a business owner, now I'm listening to my gut more. I want to be a database decision maker, but I think instincts are very, very valuable when you have to pivot and move quickly and also really energize your team. I hear that.James Creech:You need both.Chris Erwin:You end up selling the company to Brandwatch, which I think was just announced over the past month. So, I'm curious to hear the story to exit right after this success, the 2019 pivot to now. How did you end up selling to Brandwatch?James Creech:We were evaluating, what is the next step for us in 2021? As I mentioned, the business started to really hit its stride in 2020. We were looking around at the overall market landscape, and look, influencer marketing is a crowded, competitive space. It's great. It keeps us sharp, but we realized if we want to continue to grow and compete in this space, then we need to either raise money and start to double down on sales and marketing or execute on a broader roll up strategy. Or, we can find someone who shares our vision and our passion for this category, but has more resources and can help accelerate our growth, right? So, the calculus for us at the time was ... You look at our well known, well funded competitors. Do we go out and raise money? It's certainly a path. That's an option.James Creech:Paladin had customers in over 35 countries, across five or six continents. So, we were competing against different people in Germany, than we were in Singapore, than we were in Dubai. So, it was different by market, but we recognized that, okay, we need to raise capital to help accelerate, or we need to find an exit. So, thinking about the fundraising process, as I mentioned, we're bootstrapped. A lot of us had good, favorable positions on the cap table. If we raise money, you dilute the ownership, and you kick out the goal post, I don't know, two plus years, let's say. And, the other thing I was cognizant of is, well, it seems to be this interesting moment in time where things are happening at such a rate, people want to get into this space. It's probably the right time for us to find a partner. We had had a lot of inbound interest, so we said, "Let's test the waters and see what the reception is. If we don't find anyone we like, we can always fall back on our current plan of just keep growing, or we can look at the fundraising alternative."Chris Erwin:So, you were getting inbounds from companies that were interested in kicking the tires around you potentially in an acquisition?James Creech:Yeah. We have throughout the history of the business, but it became especially acute interest in, let's say Q1, Q2 of 2021. So, I reached out to my banker friend, Jason Rapp at Whisper and said, "It seems like there's some interest here. We should probably run a process. How should we handle these conversations?" So, he came on to help us with that, very quickly had some phenomenal conversations with great people that I think saw what we were building and wanted to help add fuel to the fire. But, I was fortunate to meet Giles Palmer, the original founder of Brandwatch, who now works at Cision, the parent company. We just hit it off. He said, "Can you spend some time with our product team?" We met the product and engineering team. It was like magic from the first call.James Creech:They loved the product. They saw what we were doing. It fit very neatly into their thesis and what Brandwatch has been building in and around consumer intelligence and being a leader in social listening. They have been merging with Falcon.io, which is an amazing social media management tool. Influencer marketing was very clearly just the third leg of the stool. So, we got excited about that. They said, "Hey, can we talk tomorrow? Can we talk Monday after that?" And, very quickly, it escalated where they made an offer, and it was the right offer and the right time. We said, "Yeah, let's go into diligence." So, we ran diligence over the holidays. So, I was at Christmas with my family, Christmas 2021, hanging out with family during the day, and then working until about 3:00 AM every night, because A, I had a lot of work to do.James Creech:And, B, I had these colleagues in Europe who were also burning the midnight oil on their holidays. So, going through all of DD, and then we kind of finished that in early to mid-February. At the same time, we were running a parallel path on the purchase agreement documents with legal, reached an agreement on that in end of February. Then, we had to do a 30 day hold for DOJ approvals, announced in March, and then finally closed the acquisition at end of March. So, long process, but a lot of learnings and an exhilarating outcome. So, it's been amazing to see it all the way through.Chris Erwin:Wow.James Creech:It is such a process, right? It's probably the hardest thing I've ever done. People tell at the end, "Oh, congratulations. We're so excited for you." And, that's amazing, right? You experience all the emotions of joy, excitement, elation, but at the same time, strangely, at least I also experienced this feeling of loss, which I think is natural. It's kind of closing of one chapter and beginning of another, where you're saying goodbye to this thing that you've built and you've poured so much of your energy and time and money and everything else into. It's like a kid maybe growing up and going to college.James Creech:It's exciting. It's the next evolution, but it's also saying goodbye to the thing that I knew in its past form. Then, honestly, there's this just overwhelming sense of relief, because a lot of it feels like deliverables and juggling so many plates and keeping everyone happy. Every different constituency has something else they want from this outcome. So, if you're able to get to a point where everyone's satisfied, or as much as you can, you just get it done. It's this amazing feeling of, whew, right? We did it, and that relief is also very comforting and satisfying, I suppose.Chris Erwin:One last quick question before we get into rapid fire is, what's next for James? You're going to stay on at Brandwatch for a while. Are you going to go start your next company? What are you thinking?James Creech:So, I have come on to Brandwatch as the SVP of influencer strategy. So, I get to work with the global leadership team to help think through how do we inject influencer and creator economy strategy into the entire business, which is so exciting, right? I've spent too much time and energy on this to walk away for now, so I'm very excited to be in this new phase of the business, doubling down on what we've built, adding more resources, combining that with the amazing product suite that Brandwatch has. So, I'm still all in, excited about what we're doing. As you mentioned earlier, I'm still involved in a lot of advisory engagements, and it's fun for me to get to give back and support other early stage entrepreneurs. So, still a big passion for me and something I make time for, but in terms of my day to day focus, yeah, it's 100% all in on Brandwatch.Chris Erwin:Before rapid fire, James, I just want to give you some kudos. I have known you for a while in the industry. I think our LinkedIn posts have crossed paths for at least over five to seven years. I think our relationship, we've gotten to know one another better, I think over the past couple. I was on your podcast. Now, you're on mine. I think there could be a fun future ahead where we collaborate on different things. That's a separate convo, but I just want to say, as I've gotten to know you, learning about just how thoughtful that you've been in building your business, how thoughtful, how you are in building for the creator economy, I think one of the things that got me excited when I entered the whole YouTube MCN space back in 2012 was this positive sum mindset.Chris Erwin:We can all grow together. There's incredible opportunity. I think that you embody that feeling incredibly well. You just put out a lot of positive, good juju into the world. You're very supportive of so many people. I think it has a really big impact, and I think it's a great inspiration for so many others. So, massive kudos, and I hear you on this notion of loss, loss and relief. You had this baby. You took a huge bet on it. It's worked out incredibly well for you and your team and your co-founders, but James, you're a young guy with a very bright future ahead. You have many, many more exciting wins that lie ahead in your future. Just have faith and the trust that we are lucky that you have the time to go and do that work.James Creech:Well, thank you. Thank you for all of that. It's very kind. I'm flattered, and I've felt for a long time that you and I are maybe kindred spirits in a sense, right? Oh, I've got to spend more time with this Chris guy, because you're very obviously very intelligent, well connected, thoughtful in the content that you share, the communities that you curate through your events and dinner series, and things like that. Also, I just think we have a lot of personal interests, like your real estate investing and everything else. So, any chance, any excuse I have to get more Chris Erwin in my life, I will take it. So, just putting that out there, because very much excited about that. And, one other note, maybe just to kind of close things out is, as I mentioned, started the business in my mid-20s. I'm now in my early 30s.James Creech:As you go through this process, I think the most impactful thing that I've learned is recasting what defines success. For a lot of peop

This interview features Brendan Gahan, Partner and Chief Social Officer at Mekanism. We discuss working with OG YouTubers like Smosh back in 2005, founding Epic Signal and selling it to his former employer, hanging out in El Salvador's Bitcoin Beach, why it takes him 100 drafts to publish content, the future of the creator economy, and learning how to enjoy what you create.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com---EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up. A podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Brendan Gahan:I felt like my strengths could be better utilized going off on my own. It was really as simple as, well, I want to do this work the way that I know how to do it and the way I want to do it. And if that takes me going off on my own, then that's what I'm going to do. So I did. In hindsight, it sounds much smarter than it was. It was not smart from like an on paper standpoint, but I just felt like it was the right thing for me to do because I've been doing it longer than most people, I have relationships, I have a sense of what strategically works. I want to do it the way that I want to do it. Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Brendan Gahan, partner and chief social officer at Mekanism. So Brendan was born in Ventura, California, and grew up surfing many local breaks. But although his parents were educators, he entered college without a career focus. But just a few weeks away from graduation, a last minute call from his uncle sparked his entry to media and advertising, and he never looked back. His career started at a creative agency working on some of the first YouTube campaigns with hit creators like Anthony Padilla and Ian Hecox's Smosh. With a growing reputation as a social and digital expert, Brendan eventually started his own agency, Epic Signal, which he ended up selling to Mekanism. Chris Erwin:Today, Brendan is their chief social officer. On the side he also publishes a wide array of content, making it one of the industry's most well regarded thought leaders. Some highlights of our chat include what it was like to sell his company to his former employer, why he's hanging out in El Salvador's Bitcoin Beach, how it took him 100 videos to post his first TikTok, the future of the creator economy, and learning how to enjoy what you create. All right, let's get to it. Chris Erwin:Brendan, thanks for being on The Come Up Podcast. Brendan Gahan:Thanks for having me, pumped to be here. Chris Erwin:We were just having a little chat about, you got a surf in this morning, if that's right. Brendan Gahan:I did. I'm working in El Salvador this week in a little town called Zonte, people may have heard of it referred to as Bitcoin Beach. And there's a nice little right hand point here, so made sure to get out there. Chris Erwin:Are you regular foot or goofy foot? Brendan Gahan:I'm regular, yeah. Chris Erwin:Okay, so you like the right-handers. I'm goofy, I like to go left. Brendan Gahan:Yeah, right hand point in particular, it's like my favorite kind of wave. I grew up in Ventura. So grew up surfing C Street, at the point in Ventura. And then every once in a while I would make the trek up to Rincon and stuff. Chris Erwin:I'm curious, where exactly did you grow up? Were you in the LA County or were you up north? Brendan Gahan:No, I was in Ventura. So there's Ventura County, which encompasses quite a bit of Southern California, but I grew up in the city of Ventura, maybe three quarters of a mile away from the beach, it's like a 15-minute walk or so, and yeah, it was great. Chris Erwin:Great. And do you still have family that's in Ventura? Brendan Gahan:Parents are still there. I've got some aunts, uncles, cousins in the area. And then my younger sister lives, she's still in Ventura County, but about 30 minutes away from where we grew up. Chris Erwin:I often talk about Southern California real estate. And you look at one of the few pockets in SoCal that's near the beach that has been underdeveloped is definitely Ventura. I think that's true for the last 30 years. I think that's finally starting to change, particularly during COVID and remote work. Have you seen that there? Brendan Gahan:Oh my gosh, it's crazy. I was just there this past weekend. And there's all these developments going up, like apartment complexes and condos, and yeah, it's sort of interesting. When you look at Ventura on a map, there's sort of like this no man's land between LA and Santa Barbara. And for years, Ventura was just sort of like overlooked. It was like people would pass through Ventura to go to either Santa Barbara or LA, but then more and more Ojai started to become a place, and Ventura has become a bit of a destination and there's now some startups out there. Before the biggest company there was Patagonia. Ventura, growing up was sort of like this blue collar cowboy meets surfer vibe for the most part. And yeah, that's definitely evolving. Chris Erwin:I think cowboy meets surfer vibe sounds about as good as it can get, you know? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, yeah. Chris Erwin:I forget who, but when I was at Big Frame almost 10 years ago now, I remember there were some industry friends that had set up shop in Ventura and were commuting to LA, and it was only about like an hour, hour and 15 away, not that crazy if you timed it right. So curious, looking at you being at the nexus of digital media and advertising and all the things, were there any media influences when you were there, when you were younger? Did that come from your parents or anything like that? Or was your upbringing focused on completely different things? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, definitely not. LA seemed like the furthest thing in the world to me growing up. And it seemed like a city, it may as well have been New York in my mind. Even though it was only like an hour and a half, we would go to LA on a field trip every couple years, or maybe my parents would take us there and we'd visit a museum or something like that. But it was not like a destination that was really on my radar. And from a professional standpoint where my head was at, I sort of had the cliche jobs in mind, it was like, oh, okay, maybe I'll be a teacher or a lawyer. A lot of people I knew growing up, and a number of relatives were like firemen, so my mind was sort of gravitating towards, I thought I'd either be a doctor, a lawyer or a psychologist. So I didn't have much of like a media or a tech influence until later. Chris Erwin:What did your parents do? Brendan Gahan:They were both in education. So my mom was a teacher's assistant in resource classes. And then my dad initially was like a teacher and then became a principal at a number of the special education schools in Ventura County. And then when he retired, he was the director of special education in Ventura. So education ran deep in the family, I guess. Chris Erwin:Yes. No, clearly understood. But I think you mentioned that you had an uncle that was in the media space, right? Brendan Gahan:That's right. Yeah, yeah. So I had an uncle who worked in advertising and he was at Wieden+Kennedy like in the heyday when it was like Bonos, Air Jordan, all that, when it was as big as it could get, and they lived a ways away. But whenever I saw him, I would just like pepper him with a million questions because to me, somebody working in advertising, in particular on like Nike and in that era, it wasn't just ads. It was like shifting culture, like Spike Lee and all that stuff. So I thought it was the coolest thing in the world. And I'd always ask him a million questions about it. But in my mind I never thought that I would end up working in that space. It seemed like this extra terrestrial sort of thing. Brendan Gahan:But he was always really cool. And he was like a creative director doing a lot of the Air Jordan spots and that sort of thing. So he always had funny stories he would share. And I just thought it was the coolest thing. I remember being in like elementary school, he'd visit or we'd go visit him, and I'd just pepper him with questions. So it was always sort of like seated in the back of my mind, but at the same time it felt unattainable, but I was really fortunate. Brendan Gahan:I don't know if we want to skip ahead too much, but basically he ended up offering me my first internship, totally came out of the blue. I got a phone call one day, I was like two days away from graduating from college. And I was about to go home for summer and work, and yeah, just out of the blue, he's like, "Hey, I got this guy on my team," he had started his own agency at this point, he's like, "And we need some young kid who understands digital," because this is 2005. And so I came up there and I interviewed with this guy he wanted me to intern for- Chris Erwin:But you did not go to college for this, if I understand correctly, you went to, is it UC Santa Cruz and you were psychology and history? Brendan Gahan:Yep. Yep. Chris Erwin:And again, you thought with that you were going to follow in your parents' footsteps, become an educator, or become a lawyer. Brendan Gahan:Something like that, yeah, I thought I was zeroing in on like teacher, lawyer or psychologist. I wasn't really sure what I was going to do. And psychology I always thought was fascinating. So I studied that, and then I realized two, three years in, I was like, oh, I've taken a ton of history courses and if I just take a few more, I can get a double major in apparently history, because of all the writing and stuff if I remember correctly, it was like not a bad thing to have if you were looking to get into law school. So it just kind of like was a circuitous path to get where I ended up. Chris Erwin:It didn't feel like you were overly passionate about anything at that point. I think you were open minded and you had some, call it nuclear, familial inspirations or influences. But when you got this call from your uncle, you're like, hey, this has been the cool uncle that was part of these massive sociocultural movements, Michael Jordan and Nike, I totally hear you. So when you got that call, were you really pumped up or was it, oh no, this sounds like something interesting and there's some direction and let's just go see what happens. Brendan Gahan:I was really pumped. I was also really torn because I was going to go home and work as a teacher's assistant for the summer and do summer school, which I know my parents were sort of excited about on so many different levels, because I'd be home. They would see me. They loved the idea of me getting into education, at least I'm pretty sure that's what they were excited about. And so I was like very torn, but also super excited. Brendan Gahan:And I went out and drove up to San Francisco for the interview. And I still remember walking into the ad agency office for the first time just being like, holy shit, this is so fucking cool. This is an office, people work out of here. It was like this creative space. And I remember thinking, especially as a college kid, wow, there's like a beer fridge and your pool table, and all these things. And obviously I knew work was happening, but it seemed like a great environment to get work done. I don't think I ever overdid it on any of the fun things, but it was like this relief to sort of have that there, and it felt really exciting to me. Chris Erwin:So then you get the job and you move up north. Brendan Gahan:Yep. Chris Erwin:What were you focused on in the beginning there? And then, I think from our notes that you did some early work with Smosh, is that right? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, exactly. So I did an internship and then I eventually got hired, and I was technically like a junior account executive. This was 2005, 2006, 2007, I think, and it was in the early, early days of social media and I was the youngest guy in the office. So people would ask me random questions, like, "What's the deal with MySpace, what happens on that?" Or, like Facebook, nobody else could get on Facebook because you still had to have your college email address. So I sort of found myself being this resource, and at the same time me being flabbergasted by the way advertising was being done. Brendan Gahan:I remember the first time I found out how much a billboard cost, and looking at that and being like, this is almost more than, I mean, I can't remember the number right now, but I remember thinking, this is about as much I make in a full year with my salary and being like, I don't think anyone does anything because of the billboard, or certainly not like a normal billboard ad, and seeing this huge disconnect between what drove people to do things and what people were genuinely excited about and where dollars were being allocated. Brendan Gahan:So I think I slowly started just embracing that and being like, to me, it was common sense to a certain extent, like, look, I can go on YouTube and I can see how many people watch this video. Why aren't we doing this? This shows millions of people. Once again, like walking down the street, I don't know of anybody who does anything because of a billboard. And so that sort of evolved, and I started just pitching ideas proactively. And I remember I even tried to pitch clients and stuff, and stuff I in hindsight probably didn't have- Chris Erwin:Existing clients of the agency, or were you doing some new business development? Brendan Gahan:All of the above. I remember reading about it in the ad trades, like, oh, so and so company fired their agency and I'd be like, well, why don't they work with us? And literally come up with ideas and mail them things, and like try and get a response. And I don't know, just like this sort of, we're a creative industry, let's be really creative. Chris Erwin:Was that the expectation from your role or was that you just having some gumption of being a self-starter? Brendan Gahan:Not to pat myself on the back, but I think it was definitely me sort of having a little bit of gumption. I think I also just didn't know. It was a relatively small loose agency. And so I thought, well, it wasn't like this is exactly how you're supposed to do this job, and this, this and this, I think creativity was really encouraged and so long as work was getting done, anything I wanted to do sort of beyond that was like, all right, yeah, sure, that sounds cool. Chris Erwin:So did that spirit, is that what drove you... Did you work directly with Smosh? What is that story there? Brendan Gahan:Yeah. So late 2006, this client the agency had had before I was even there, they came to the agency and they were like, "Hey, we want to do an ad campaign. We don't have a big budget." And it was a portable MP3 player. And the partners at the agency were talking about it right behind me. And they were about to turn it down. And it was one of those situations where in hindsight, yes, it was not much money, and they should have turned it down by all means. But I just butted in. I was like, "Hey, what if we pitched them this idea of getting these kids on YouTube to promote it. And we just rather than try and squeeze like a campaign into this budget, let's just do one video." Brendan Gahan:And so they were like, "Oh, that sounds kind of cool. Yeah, let's pitch it to the company, to the brand." And they bought it. I think I literally turned around after the partners said it was okay to pitch it to the client and I emailed Ian and Anthony, found their email on MySpace and they emailed me back that afternoon. And I think the next week they came by the office because they were just up in Sacramento area, so it wasn't too far. Chris Erwin:They were one of the biggest YouTube channels at the time, right? Just for context, this is 2005, 2006. Facebook had just started in '04. YouTube had just started in '04. Google bought them I think a couple years later. So Ian and Anthony were probably one of the biggest personalities on the platform at that time. Brendan Gahan:Yeah. I think they might have been number two. I know they eventually were number one for a couple of years, but I don't think they were quite number one yet. It was sort of like early days and there was a lot of jostling for position and stuff. Chris Erwin:So you got their emails from their MySpace page, you hit them up. That definitely wouldn't happen today, not as easy to go direct to the top creators. And then they came by your office, what happened? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, they came by, by that point we had gotten the thumbs up from the client to like, "Oh yeah, sure, we're down, if you can make it work." They came by the office, we literally got in a room and it was sort of funny. I remember nobody knew what you would charge for something like this, you know? So we were literally just kicking around like, what would you want to charge for this? I don't know, how much do you want to pay for this? Just going back and forth. And then finally, one of the partners was like, "Well, I don't know, would you guys do it for like 15 grand or something?" And they were like, "Probably, why don't we go back to..." I think Anthony's dad was an accountant or something like that. Brendan Gahan:And they were going to run it by him. I might have those details wrong, but they were like, it was basically like a, pretty sure that'll work. Let's go talk to our parents. And then they came back and they were like, sure, and so we did it, they made this video called Feet for Hands. I remember when it went live it crashed the client's website, which I thought was so fucking cool. I felt so validated. And then, yeah, it got like millions of views. And I just wanted to do that again and again, and again. And I saw what Mekanism was doing and my first boss at that agency, he'd left for Mekanism, Jason Harris, the president and CEO of Mekanism now. He joined Mekanism, became a partner. And we had a great working relationship. Brendan Gahan:I interned for him and stuff. And I showed in that video, I was like, look, look, look at this thing. It's got three million views. I know I can help you guys. I was so envious of the work they were doing. They were doing like early viral video stuff. And this is like 2006, 2007, when a lot of this stuff, people weren't paying attention at all. And so I was just so envious of the projects they were working on. And they brought me in for a few interviews and I literally met the whole agency, which at the time was pretty small, I think like twice. And then they hired me. Chris Erwin:Was this East Coast based? Brendan Gahan:This is all West Coast. They were in San Francisco, just a few blocks away from the office I was at, at the time, and then got hired, it was like Mekanism was doing a ton of branded content, viral video stuff but oftentimes without any paid media. The platforms, most of them didn't even have paid media as an option. I think at the time you could buy a YouTube homepage banner and that was it. Facebook didn't have it. There was no sort of formal way of promoting that stuff for the most part. So we sort of, myself and a couple other guys, younger guys, we built out a team over time that was the social media team. And we were just constantly coming up with different ways to promote content, doing everything from Reddit seeding to tons and tons of work with creators. We worked with all the big creators in those early days, which was great, because it was a small community. We got to make a lot of deeper relationships at the time. Chris Erwin:Yeah. And you were probably working with a lot of those creators direct versus now there's tons of representatives, managers and agencies, and sometimes you never even talk to the end talent, but back then probably different. Brendan Gahan:Oh, 100%, yeah. We would get pretty elaborate sometimes with these campaigns, we would do like in person summits and kickoffs. We worked with 20th Century Fox on some campaigns, and we would fly like 50 influencers in and a bunch obviously would be in LA, but host these elaborate dinners and events, and sometimes it'd be two, three days long where they're meeting with the execs, meeting with actors, kind of getting a download of the campaign, what the expectations were for them. Then we'd take them out, go partying. So it was cool. Got to spend a lot of face time with people and it was a really fascinating time. Chris Erwin:You were there for about five to six years at Mekanism, right? Brendan Gahan:Yeah. Chris Erwin:And then I think you transitioned to full screen after that for a brief stint, but then you started your own agency, Epic Signal. So what was the catalyst for you to leave this kind of the broader corporate support and other people that were helping elevate your career to say, I want to do something differently, I'm going to do it by myself. Brendan Gahan:I felt like full screen was exploding at the time. You know this, all the MCNs were blowing up, but I felt like there was a lot of distraction and stuff. And the thing that I was really passionate about at its core was the strategy in collaborating with both brands and creators to create something awesome. And I felt like full screen, it was like they were trying to grow this MCN, this network and make a scalable business. So it was a little bit different from what I was really passionate about. And so I left, I thought I was just going to take my time sort of consulting. But I mean, this was like when influencer marketing was reaching this new fevered pitch because... We talked about it yesterday. Sometime around there, Maker was acquired, all these clients that I'd worked with and people at different agencies that I'd worked with over the years came out of the woodwork and were like, we have to have an influencer strategy. Brendan Gahan:We have to have a YouTube strategy. And I'd been the, air quotes, like YouTube guy and influencer guy since 2006. So I was one of a handful of people who had sort of like this deep bench and experience in this niche. So all my old clients started hitting me up. All of a sudden I had more work than I could personally do. And slowly started hiring people just out of necessity, because I didn't want to say no to these awesome opportunities. I was like, oh crap. I get to work with Mountain Dew, hell yeah, let's do it. Chris Erwin:I do want to clarify, but when you went off on your own, I mean I'm sure look, as the industry is growing, Google original channels program happened in 2011, 2012, hundreds of millions of dollars of funding into digitally native production companies to fuel the overall video ecosystem to help you to recruit more advertisers. And so when you decided to go off on your own to start Epic Signal, why was that? Had you always wanted to be an entrepreneur? Did you think like, hey, I want to be an owner and I'm early in a very nascent industry and so this is scary, but I'm going to get an early foothold and see what happens. Brendan Gahan:It honestly wasn't as strategic as that, it was more like, I felt like my strengths could be better utilized going off on my own. And I like being really hands on and strategic. It was really as simple as, well, I want do this work the way that I know how to do it and the way I want to do it. And if that takes me going off on my own, then that's what I'm going to do. So I did. And in hindsight, it sounds much smarter than it was, it was not smart from like an on paper standpoint. I left full screen. I left my equity on the tape because I left just shy of a year, but I just felt like it was the right thing for me to do, because I knew, I'd seen this space grow so fast and I was like, I've been doing it longer than most people. I have relationships, I have a sense of what strategically works. I want to do it the way that I want to do it. And that just made me feel good, and so that's what I did. Chris Erwin:Now did you launch Epic Signal in LA or did you move to New York? Brendan Gahan:So I was in LA, but very quickly was splitting my time up between LA and New York. I was going back and forth. I'd spend two weeks in LA, two weeks in New York, back, forth, back forth constantly, and then was about to move to New York officially, I ended up having more clients there than anywhere else, more brands I was working with there than anywhere else. And then as I was sort of putting the plan together to do that, I ended up selling it. And then I had to move to New York, so it moved things along. Chris Erwin:That happened pretty quickly, right? Because I think you had Epic Signal for, was it a couple years before you sold it to Mekanism? Brendan Gahan:Yeah, I think it was just shy of two years. It was almost two full years, yeah. Chris Erwin:Okay. And when you decided to sell, how big was your team at that point? Brendan Gahan:It wasn't big. It was like a half dozen people. Chris Erwin:Okay. Why did you decide to sell? Brendan Gahan:I found myself in a situation where I was doing so much back office stuff. It was like the very thing that I left to go do was, I wanted to focus on the strategy and deal with that, do the actual work. And then what I found was, when you are an entrepreneur, it's very easy to get sucked into dealing with lawyers and accounts, and payroll, and all this stuff that is not fun, all that back office stuff. Chris Erwin:I'm feeling you right now on that. That's where I feel like I'm at with RockWater. Brendan Gahan:You try and delegate it, but it's like all these things get this overflow back to you. And so I was back in this situation where I was doing the work that wasn't making me happy. And at the same time, I sort of felt like I have this window of opportunity where it's like, this is a really small team, we're lean and mean. We've got great profit margins. We've also got dope clients. We were working with like ABI. We worked on Bud Light campaigns, Corona. We did work with several PepsiCo brands, a handful of others. So we had a dope roster of clients that we were working with, a handful of whom were on retainer. And I was like, we have this niche where we're focusing on helping brands with YouTube strategy and YouTube creators. And oftentimes, especially the bigger brands, like a Pepsi, Mountain Dew, they had multiple agencies and they would have like a social AOR even. Brendan Gahan:And they did have a social AOR, but I was like, it's only going to be a matter of time before I get squeezed out and they start offering this services that I'm sort of in this interesting niche I can offer at this time that they don't have. And so I felt like the cache of the brands that I had, the team in place, people would find it desirable because of the relationships and already booked revenue, and great team. And so I thought I'll try and capitalize on my time and see if I can make a deal happen. Brendan Gahan:And then I had a letter of intent on the table and I would call my old boss at Mekanism for advice. "Hey, I'm negotiating with these guys, and this is a deal on the table. Does this make sense? What should I push back on?" So he was aware that things were moving along. And basically I was in New York, I had signed a letter of intent, things were sort of going through due diligence and all that. And he was like, "Let's grab drinks." So I met up with him for a drink. He's like, "Just come back." I was like, "All right, well, I got a deal in hand if you can beat it, I'm down. Like let's do it." I loved working with him. Chris Erwin:Hey listeners, this is Chris Erwin. Your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work. And it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it everybody, let's get back to the interview. Chris Erwin:I have to ask, did you run a formal sales process where you decided to sell and then you're like, all right, here's the 20 best fit buyers that are out there and I'm going to go call them or I'm going to hire someone to dial for dollars on the company's behalf. And/or were you also just getting unsolicited in bounds that you were like, oh, hey, this is interesting. Maybe with the market timing, things that you were sharing, where there was a lot of brands had big agencies of record, you felt that you were going to get squeezed out. So now is the time to sell, what was that looking like? Brendan Gahan:Exactly that, but sort of like the inverse. Initially, I sort of had a hunch and so I sort of informally had some conversations and dinners with people where like, I didn't come right out and say, "Hey, I want to sell," I didn't want to come across as desperate. Because I mean, and I wasn't, I wasn't desperate, but I wanted to sell. But I would sort of just seed the idea, like, "Hey, I'm kicking around the idea of selling, I'd love to do X, Y, and Z. And like' Chris Erwin:Just like dating, the classic courting phase, you're just doing the dance. Brendan Gahan:Exactly. And then once people started expressing interests, I was like, okay, I'm definitely onto something. This is something I'm way out of my depth on. So I asked around and some buddies recommended some lawyers and I hired them and signed a deal with them. And I was like, all right, let's make this happen. And that was the best decision I could have made. They earned every dime I paid them and then some, because beyond just the relief of handing it over, they definitely got me more money and I didn't ever have to be the bad guy throughout the process, which I'm very bad at saying no to people in negotiations and stuff like that. They were just like, every step of the way they were like, "No, just pass it over to us. We'll take care of it." And then they would hit me up and they're like, "Here's what's on the table, here's what we advise. What do you want to do?" And the process was stressful enough as it is, but having them sort of take the reins just alleviated so much stress. Chris Erwin:Selling your company is a very unique work stream that requires a very unique set of skills to execute well. And it can be very emotional for a founder, operator and CEO. This is your baby. You could transform your life through a big liquidity event, but it's also going to impact, you might be selling to another company and working for someone else. So having a partner there to guide you along the way is really important. I mean, I saw this a lot because I was a banker on Wall Street back in the day and sold a variety of different companies and helped shepherd the sale with Big Frame to Awesomeness TV. I just talked about that in the last podcast with Sarah Penna, one of the co-founders of Big Frame, and it's a really big decision. Chris Erwin:So I totally get it. I'm curious, who were the buyers that you were talking to? Was it different brand agencies? Was it different brands that wanted to actually just bring you on in house? Was it some of the emerging YouTube MCNs that wanted to build out their influencer sales arm? What was that group looking like? Brendan Gahan:I think it was two MCNs and this holding company, I won't name names and stuff, but it was a fascinating process. And to your point about seeing it and it being stressful and all this stuff, if you think about it, it's like, it's an experience that, as an owner or an entrepreneur you're out of your depth, it's a very unique thing that happens. It doesn't happen that often. And so bringing in professionals is so helpful because they actually do these deals. I'm doing totally different types of deals. I have no experience selling an organization. Chris Erwin:Yeah. You need to create a very compelling story and also urgency, get people excited and the feeling that they're going to miss out. So if you kind of go after the process willy nilly, you can set up a really bad result for your company. And also for your counterparties that are saying, "Hey, we're interested here. We've been in talks for a while. Why is this dragging along? Who else are you talking to?" Chris Erwin:So you can really damage, not only all the value that you've created for your business, but it can impact your team, it can impact the ability of you to continue working in the industry thereafter. So got to do it right. But so many say, I was just talking to a banker about this yesterday. Oftentimes, transactions result from long standing relationships and trust that have been built. So the end buyer for Epic Signal was your past boss at Mekanism, that became your eventual home. So after you joined forces with them, was the mandate, "Hey Brendan, come back on board. You're now part of the senior leadership team. The market opportunity is even bigger. Let's go after it with you and your whole team in a bigger way." Brendan Gahan:Pretty much, yeah. It was a bit of a plug and play option, they had... Obviously there was a social team when I left, the feeling was like there wasn't... A number of people had left by the time I came back, so I was able to bring my team in, merge it with the existing team. And we started expanding the offerings again. When I was running Epic Signal, I deliberately tried to keep it very narrow in niche, because I couldn't compete with a big social agency, it just wouldn't happen. Brendan Gahan:But by having two very key offerings, it streamlined so much of the processes and it gave me a clear point of differentiation. And when I joined back up with Mekanism, it was like full service, social, we're doing everything, community management in the lightweight, social content creation, analytics, reporting, influencer marketing, all this stuff. And so had to scale up the team and integrate with the larger organization as a whole. And it was fun. I think I'm sort of like this entrepreneur at heart or intrapreneur, and I like the process of sort of building and evolving and exploring new opportunities. So it was a really good fit, is a good fit. Chris Erwin:Thinking back on all of the brand and influencer campaigns that you've done, there's got to be one or two that stand out in terms of just something crazy went down. I think back to at Big Frame, working with some talent, doing a six figure brand deal, talent deciding literally two hours before something's supposed to go live that they're not going to post it or having a meltdown on the floor of VidCon and sobbing and crying because they're having a personal breakdown, because look, that life is tough and burnout is real in the influencer space. I remember a bunch of stories when we were launching different content verticals and flying in different 40 creators into like a creator house. This is like back in 2013, before there was like the modern creator houses of today. So any stories from the trenches that you remember from your early days? Brendan Gahan:Oh my God. Yeah, it's like, working with creators I think is one of those things, when you're in it, you're almost like, I'm never going to do this again. Then afterwards you're like, oh, that wasn't so bad. That was really fun. I think probably one that took the cake as far as stress goes, was we were working with Brisk Iced Tea, which is a PepsiCo brand. And we're about to host a summit because Brisk was relaunching, they had Eminem in the super bowl spot, and they were reviving the Claymation look. They did one with Ozzy Osborne, they did one with Danny Trejo, and we were actually having Danny Trejo fly out to New York, and he was going to meet with all these creators and stuff. And this was during the winter before super bowl. So I don't know if it was like December or January, or maybe early February, but there was a massive snowstorm. Brendan Gahan:Flights kept getting canceled and delayed. And I remember being glued to my phone, refreshing constantly, looking at, I think there were a handful of flights that were going to make it out of LA to New York before things were going to get canceled. And I remember, we signed up all these creators, Danny Trejo was going to show and he was going to be the cool, shiny object, and his flight to New York. I remember it kept getting delayed, delayed, delayed, it got canceled. We got him on another flight, delayed, delayed, delayed. And I was just like refreshing my phone and being like, this whole thing is going to fucking fall apart if that flight doesn't take off. It sounds like not that big a deal right now but I remember it was just one of those moments where I was just like, the whole thing was going to fall apart. The world was on my shoulders and I was just freaking out. But I've had a million situations like that, I remember- Chris Erwin:Did that work out? Did he get on the flight and did the campaign come together? Brendan Gahan:Oh yeah, he ended up [crosstalk 00:34:02]. Chris Erwin:He's like, I can't leave the audience hanging. Brendan Gahan:Yeah. He made it and it was freaking amazing. We thought we had him for like an hour, he was going to do a little talk, kind of talk about... His story's amazing first off. And then his spot with Brisk was super cool. And we thought people were going to get a kick out of that. I think we had like 45 minutes for him booked. He was going to come out and hang out and talk with the creators. I think it was like 20 or so creators. And we thought that was going to be this awesome experience for everyone before we sort of called it a day and then went out. And he was so cool. He came out, told this story, which is insane. And then he was like, "All right, what are we doing next, guys?" And he hung out... We had all these YouTubers there. Brendan Gahan:We had like Nice Peter and Mike Diva, and Tim DeLaGhetto, all those guys. And he made himself available to do cameos and their vlogs or any content they were making. Chris Erwin:Wow. Brendan Gahan:People would be like, "Hey, can you pretend to choke me out and beat me up for my video?" And he'd be like, "Oh sure." He just was there hanging out all day. And then we were going to take all the creators out to a dinner, take them to [inaudible 00:35:10] or one of those, where drinking and bowling and stuff. And he's like, "Oh, could I come along?" He doesn't drink. So he didn't drink. But he was hanging with the whole crew, all of us until, I don't know, like one in the morning or something. He was the nicest guy, and so it was this amazing sort of transition from like the day before, one of the most stressful experiences of my life. I don't think I slept that night to everything went off better than I could have possibly hoped for. Chris Erwin:I just want to call that out. I think that's one of the beautiful things about working with digitally native creators and being in the advertising business, is meeting all these incredible personalities. So I think Danny Trejo, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think he's LA born, Latin, very tatted up, I think had a pretty rough upbringing, but made his way into American movies and TV series. And he often plays like the bad guy or the thug and maybe those roles have been evolving, but what you see on screen- Brendan Gahan:It's pretty spot on. Chris Erwin:Yeah, what you see on screen is clearly very different than who his actual personality is, and were it not for what you're doing, Brendan, you would never have gotten to meet him, and you probably have hundreds of stories like that, that's a pretty beautiful thing. Brendan Gahan:We did one campaign with Virgin Mobile, they were sponsoring Lady Gaga's tour at the time, we got to go hang out with Lady Gaga after one of her shows like, it was wild. I bring up celebrities, but I think honestly hanging out with the creators was my favorite thing, because especially back then, there was a lot of uncertainty in terms of like, how am I going to turn this into a job? Or this is my job, but I'm just kind of scraping by. And it was an interesting mix of sort of a lot of belief in what they were doing, which I found super admirable, and I was almost envious of the fact that they took that leap as well as this sort of insecurity and doubt that they had. Brendan Gahan:There's so much pressure to keep making content and to power through, but at the same time, not knowing exactly where it was headed. You think back then, like the daily vloggers, that was a big thing in that era, those guys, we would spend all day with them doing stuff for the brand. And then when other people would go have dinner and drinks late into the night, they would have to go edit and they'd be editing until like three in the morning, running on [crosstalk 00:37:21] of sleep. Yeah. Chris Erwin:You ask what kids want to be nowadays, they want to be a creator, but whether it's a daily vlogger, or you're creating content, you're managing a fandom that is always on, and that's a lot to take on and that's why there's burnout. And I hear you, some of those early creators, they were probably just racing because they're like, hey, I have put all my resources into this, all my focus. Maybe this goes away in a couple years because the fans' interests and the passions are going to change or the algorithms are going to change and maybe this is not going to be here. So it was like a money land grab. Chris Erwin:But Brendan, when you say that you would look at creators and say, oh, I was jealous how they took the leap, maybe I want to take the leap as well. You took that leap during COVID and you started really building out your own personal audience and thought leadership. And that speaks to that you like to do things on the side. I think you have a strong entrepreneurial or intrapreneurial spirit as you described. And I don't think it just started over the past couple years. I think when we were talking in advance of this interview, you were investing back in the day as well. And I think that you were an early investor in Big Frame, is that right? Brendan Gahan:So I did invest in Big Frame, but via Mekanism because I knew Sarah from back in the day when she was working for Phil DeFranco. And so when she was starting it, I was like, oh my gosh, can we get in? So yeah, we made this small investment and I just sort of wanted to be a part of all that. I definitely had like a serious case of FOMO. Chris Erwin:Yeah. I think that was really cool. I think Sarah and Steve, we actually had a bunch of different creators and I think peer business partners in our cap table, a way of giving them ownership as a thank you, helping us build this together. And so when we sold, all those creators that were in our cap table got some money. Was it life changing money? No, but it was something. And I think they really represented a pretty special ethos from the top. Brendan Gahan:That's awesome. That's so cool. Chris Erwin:But yeah, and you are also early on and I think you still are, you're an advisor to the VidCon board, is that right? Brendan Gahan:Yeah. So I sit on the advisory board for the industry track specifically. So I mean, I've been to all the US VidCons, a bunch of the international ones. So I was always deep in that space. And I've known Jim since the Revision3 days, he was, Jim Louderback the CEO was the CEO of Revision3, which was one of the big early MCNs. And I'm not sure exactly to be honest how that came about other than... But I think what prompted it was as part of the acquisition of Viacom for VidCon, Jim came on board and I think it was a way to make sure that, I think he put together a few advisory boards to make sure that he was getting a lot of input from multiple points, because for so long the community was relatively insular, and its expanded so much so quickly. Chris Erwin:I first met you, I think via an introduction from Chas, Chas Lacaillade who I think was an early interview on this podcast. You guys overlapped at full screen back in 2013 and then have both built your own businesses after that, pretty funny track. And first met you in New York. And I remember a conversation a year and a half ago or a couple years ago, I was asking, what are you focused on? What are you doing? You're a dabbler in so many things, you're at Mekanism, but I'm seeing that you're doing all this incredible thought leadership on LinkedIn, all these incredible posts and you're really consistent about it. Chris Erwin:They were really high quality. And you said, "Hey Chris, I'm really focused on building an audience. And I think audience in the modern creator economy is one of the most valuable currencies that you can have." And you weren't completely clear what you wanted to do with that audience, but you're like, I'm going to build and now's a great time to do it. So I am curious to hear that story of how that came to be and what you're working on today. Brendan Gahan:You probably said that so much more articulate than I did. I'm going to have to remember that, but yeah. That was definitely the insight. I think the way it came about was sort of like, I was legitimately beating myself up over the fact that I had probably hundreds of pages of writing and thoughts in Google Drive that I'd never published as a blog post. And I would just like constantly beat myself up over this. I'd have what I thought was a great idea. I'd work on a blog post and then it would just sort of get longer and longer and longer and longer. And then eventually it became this daunting task to like push it out, because I had a blog for a while and I would sort of fall into this pattern and then not publish for like a long, long time. Brendan Gahan:And the thing I sort of found was the hardest part was to press publish really. And so I was like, okay, well what's the easiest way I can get myself to kind of overcome that, because I did want an audience. I felt like I had thoughts that I wanted to get out of my own head. And so basically I was like, all right, what is sort of the easiest way to do this and inoculate myself to this idea that this fear of pressing publish. And so I started small and basically I was like, all right, well, I'm going to start posting one thing a day on LinkedIn. It doesn't matter if it's simply sharing an article, just writing cool or writing a whole blog post if I feel like it. And that made it very approachable. Brendan Gahan:In the early days, I would literally just sit there and press a timer, 20 minutes and write. When it was done, I'd give it a once over and then press publish. And that really helped me sort of start to overcome this fear, and did that for all of, what was that 2020 I believe. And then at some point towards the end of 2020, I was like... We'd already done multiple TikTok campaigns and I'd seen the power of TikTok, and like early days, you can still get in there and you can have an impact. Brendan Gahan:It's a softer landing than it will be later. So after seeing all the successful campaigns, I was encouraging my fiance to get on there and do it. And then every time she would post something, it would blow up. Because she had a decent sized YouTube channel and Instagram but it wasn't massive. And I was like, just get on TikTok, trust me. So I found myself sort of giving this advice to everyone, but not taking it myself. And I was like, all right, I should just... These opportunities they only come by every few years if you're lucky, and I was like, I need to just take my own advice. And so in the same way I had to get over writing and sharing my thoughts, I had to get over that with TikTok. Chris Erwin:Yeah, putting yourself on video, that's a big difference than writing and text base expression on LinkedIn. Brendan Gahan:It was so hard. It was so hard. She used to laugh at me because I would put the camera on me and then I would just try and say something, and I would be like, "Fuck, fuck," and then try and say a word and I'd stutter. And I would sit there for like 20 minutes trying to spit out two sentences. Chris Erwin:Brendan, I got to say, I feel you on that because Kevin Gould at Kombo Ventures, he would do these job rec videos on LinkedIn where he'd just be like, call it one or two minutes. "Hey, we're Kombo Ventures, I'm Kevin, we're looking to hire someone, this is what we're doing. And here's who we're looking for." I record these and this is like an inner tip on me. I'll record that like 15 times, it's a one minute video, but I'll say no, I skipped up, I said something I didn't want to say. I don't like how I look. I don't like the lighting, and people think like, oh yeah, you just put it up and that'll be like my one thing I need to get done in the morning, and it'll take me 15 tries to do it. Then you just go to think about, okay, if you're a professional creator doing that for a living, I really feel it then, it's a pretty good glimpse into it. Brendan Gahan:100%. And I think one thing I saw Roberto Blake, maybe, I think I saw a video or saw him tweet, you've got to make 100 bad videos to get to your first good one, or maybe it was Mr. Beast. And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very true. And that sort of made me embrace the fact that the first ones are going to be awful, and I tried to not focus on like each one, but more building the habit because that would, I don't know how else to say it, but sort of inoculate yourself to that feeling of just sheer fear and anxiety of getting in front of the camera. Chris Erwin:On the outside looking in, I look at, we're a big content marketing machine at RockWater to drive awareness and legitimacy for the services that we do as the self-described McKinsey of the creator economy, right? Market research, strategy advisory, capital raising, and all of that. We look at what you're doing, Brendan, from your LinkedIn posts to your blog, to now almost I think over 100,000 followers on TikTok. It's very, very impressive. A lot of people in the industry say the same thing, right? Like, oh, do you see Brendan's path and what he's posting? It's incredible. I look at the TikTok videos. They're very well edited. Are you doing that yourself? Do you have a team helping you? Brendan Gahan:I'm not editing them myself anymore. I was up until late last year. So I hired an editor out of the Philippines actually who works full time on my TikTok. Then he does design for my blog posts and a bunch of different things basically, he helps me out with a bunch of stuff and that's been a huge relief because now I feel like I'm trying to transition to... There's almost sort of like, as a creator and this is something I observe, but I'm having trouble implementing it, sort of like people find you because of your topic is interesting or maybe you've got a helpful bit of information, but then they stick around and embrace you because of kind of the personality piece. Brendan Gahan:And I'm really trying to sort of evolve it into creating something that provides more insight into me at the same time. And hopefully people feel like there's a connection to me rather than like, "Hey, here are just some interesting stats or an interesting strategy." So that's sort of like where my head is at in terms of where I want to take it. I haven't quite figured out how I'm going to do that. But I think similar to just the same way I got started before, I'm just trying to throw things out there and see what sticks. Chris Erwin:Loudly from the RockWater team, keep doing what you're doing. We love it. Brendan Gahan:Oh, thanks. I appreciate that. Chris Erwin:Yeah. A closing theme before we get into some rapid fire questions and close out the interview. What's next for Brendan and Mekanism? And maybe that's a theme of talking about, what do you think is most exciting in the creator economy and how do you want to support it? You've been writing about Web 3 and X to earn models. Is that something that you're thinking a lot about lately? Brendan Gahan:In terms of Mekanism, I really enjoy that. And so long as I get to work with great brands and great people and do great work I'm content. In terms of the creator economy and stuff, I love everything that's happening there. And I do a little bit of investing and advising, and I love nothing more than sort of brainstorming with people who are building, it's so exciting. And I think the aspect of the creator economy that I'm really fascinated by is sort of... Rather than, most of the VCs coming in are like, oh, we're going to build this scalable product for creators. And that's interesting, but I think the thing that's more interesting is sort of the creators building their own brands, and I think right now production and productization, that's sort of the commodity piece. The development of a brand and cultivation of an audience is becoming the differentiator and the most valuable asset. Brendan Gahan:We were talking about that at the beginning, an audience is leverage. And so as we see sort of this transition from like Web 2 to Web 3, where everybody sort of breaks it down, Web 1 was read, Web 2 is read, write, Web 3 is read, write, own. If the creators of platforms and communities within Web 3 are the users and owners, it makes sense that they would be less likely to embrace traditional methods of advertising. There are some stats out there, like 96% of people hate ads. Yeah, nobody likes most advertising. There are great ads, but by and large people don't want advertising. So those who are sort of able to understand how to embrace communities and build communities, they're going to have a leg up as we sort of transition to Web 3. And we're already seeing the ripple effects of this. Brendan Gahan:I mean like iOS 14 impacted the ability to advertise, do targeted advertising. Creators are launching big brands now faster than ever, partnering with creators is the easiest way to have an impact because they've maintained that direct line of communication to their audience. And so I think creators building and owning brands is really exciting. And also, people are like, oh, like creators think it's in this nascent state. And yes, in the grand scheme of things, it is. But there are already multi billion dollar creator brands. It's so funny, I mean, you probably know him, but Richard Ryan, he was a YouTuber back in the day. I used to do a ton of work with him. He and this other YouTuber, Matt Best, they partnered with some other guys a few years back. They were the guys that launched Black Rifle Coffee, which I didn't realize how big that brand was until they IPOed, and like- Chris Erwin:Yeah, they just went public, right? Brendan Gahan:They went public. I actually was in Austin two weeks ago, I hung out with Richard. It was so wild. It's like, that was built, the platform for that initially was YouTubers. So it's really fascinating. And we're seeing all these other great brands, Logan Paul and KSI, their Gatorade competitor, et cetera. I think that aspect of the business, it just shows how powerful these creators are, which I think is really, really exciting. Chris Erwin:The Black Rifle Coffee, we were doing some research into that company a year ago to understand how some of these creator led brands and particularly CPG brands are incubated and looking at their story, and look, I don't want to undersell what they have done, but I think the quality of their coffee is good, but that's not their specialty. It's that they have these personalities behind it. And this ethos founded by former members of the military, pride in country. And they've built an incredible business doing that. And they've gotten a lot of other ambassadors that have helped them build their business along the way. And I think, yeah, it was funny, Chas was telling me about this. I guess you guys maybe hung out with Richard together. I would love to interview Richard on the podcast. So if he's listening, I'm going to be reaching out soon. Brendan Gahan:Richard's a really, really good dude. Chris Erwin:All right. So Brendan, we're going to enter the last segment of this interview. We're going to do a rapid fire, six questions, and the rules are as follows. With these questions, looking for short answers. So one sentence, or maybe even just one to two words, do you understand the rules? Brendan Gahan:Yes. Chris Erwin:Let's get into it. Proudest life moment? Brendan Gahan:Still ahead of me. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do less of in 2022? Brendan Gahan:Emails and late night work sessions. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do more of? Brendan Gahan:IRL time with friends and family. Chris Erwin:Okay. Maybe more time in Bitcoin Beach, down in El Salvador. Brendan Gahan:Yeah. Serious. Chris Erwin:What one to two things drive your success? Brendan Gahan:I'll keep this one short, crippling insecurity. Chris Erwin:Okay. I dig it. Advice for media execs going into 2022? Brendan Gahan:Get your hands dirty. Chris Erwin:Any future startup ambitions? Brendan Gahan:TBD. Chris Erwin:To elaborate on that, that could be some intrapreneurship at Mekanism or other things you're doing on the sides. I think my prediction is, this audience that you're building particularly on TikTok, I think something's going to come out of that in a pretty unique way. Brendan Gahan:So long as I can think and strategize, I'm very content. Chris Erwin:Here's the last one, Brendan, pretty easy. How can people get in contact with you? Brendan Gahan:Just Google my name, Brendan, B-R-E-N-D-A-N, Gahan, G-A-H-A-N. I'm on all the socials. So whatever your platform of choice is, you'll be able to find me. Chris Erwin:Yeah. And his website is great, lots of content there. Brendangahan.com. All right, cool. Brendan, thanks for being on the show. This was a delight. Brendan Gahan:Thank you. This was a lot of fun. I really appreciate you having me on and I love all the content you guys put out, so I'm really stoked to have made the cut and be on this. Chris Erwin:Very welcome, an easy decision. Chris Erwin:Wow. That was a super fun interview. And I really learned a lot. I think that Brendan and I are kindred spirits in a couple ways. One, our mutual love for surfing in Southern California, and two, just the vulnerabilities of putting yourself out there as a content creator. So that was really fun. Quick note, we just hosted our first executive event of 2022 just this past Thursday in LA. We did a media and commerce executive dinner at Chilena. It was awesome. We had an incredible array of guests. I think over 50 people came out and I also hosted a panel about the future of livestream commerce. So we had the head of operations of Popshop Live there, and the founder and CEO of both Verb, which is the parent company of Market.live and also StageTEN, just an awesome chat. It was a lot of fun, really great energy, and we're pumped to do more. Chris Erwin:So I think we're planning a dinner for investors in media and commerce coming up in the fall in New York City. And then also, we want to put another one together for sports media. So if you'd like to get involved as a sponsor, as a guest, or you want to be on a panel that I will moderate, reach out, you can hit us up at hello@wearerockwater.com. And then as always for all you listeners out there of our podcasts, we love to hear from you. If you have any ideas for guests or any feedback on the show, just shoot us a note, TCUpod@wearerockwater.com. All right, that's it everybody. Thanks for listening. Chris Erwin:The Come Up is written and hosted by me, Chris Erwin, and is a production of RockWater Industries. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts and remember to subscribe wherever you listen to our show. And if you really dig us, feel free to forward The Come Up to a friend. You can sign up for our company newsletter at wearerockwater.com/newsletter, and you could follow us on Twitter @TCUpod. The Come Up is engineered by Daniel Tureck, music is by Devon Bryant, logo and branding is by Kevin Zazzali, and special thanks to Alex Zirin and Eric Kenigsberg from the RockWater team. 

Just a few weeks ago, a Blackstone-backed media vehicle acquired Reese Witherspoon's Hello Sunshine for $900 million. Before that, Amazon acquired MGM for $8.5 billion. The list of studio M&A deals and rumors is a long one, with buyers ranging from streaming platforms and traditional media to CPG and blue chip private equity firms. In this episode, Chris and Andrew discuss the recent high-priced M&A, media valuations on a standalone VS streamer-integrated basis, private equity's perceived market timing, where the next big talent deals may happen, and new content buyers like FAST platforms, Apple, and Nike. (and apologies, we had a technical snafu so the recording quality is a bit subpar) Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteEmail us: rounduppod@wearerockwater.com--EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:Chris Erwin:So Andrew, I've been reading a lot of headlines lately about all of the capital investment and M&A of different production and media companies. It actually reminds me of when I first got into the digital space back in 2012, 2013. But we'll talk about that parallel a little bit later on. There's a few deals, I think, worth highlighting, but are you reading the same headlines that I am? Andrew Cohen:Yeah, it's crazy. We've seen a bunch of acquisitions, investments, and then even a lot of rumored ones and the numbers are eye-popping. So it's... Chris Erwin:Let's go through a few of these deals. As always, there's a laundry list. But most recently, Hello Sunshine was acquired for $900 million by a Blackstone-backed media venture. And of note, that venture, I think, has Kevin Mayer and Tom Staggs, they're helping to spearhead it. We saw Amazon acquire MGM for around $8.5 billion, and it's actually, I think 28 times EBITDA, wild. A24, supposedly rumored to be exploring a sale for around $3 billion. Also SpringHill, spearheaded by famed athlete LeBron James, seeking a sale for around three-quarters of a million. And the list goes on. You got Imagine with Ron Howard and Brian Grazer, Legendary Entertainment, Lionsgate Spyglass, et cetera. Any other big deals I'm missing? Andrew Cohen:I'm sure there are. Especially if you span back over the past year or two, seeing things like Crunchyroll being acquired by Sony for almost $2 billion. STX sold for almost $1 billion last year, and there's a lot more. We're seeing these every week and it's definitely made me sit back and wonder why. Chris Erwin:Quick clarification. Was STX sold or they've just raised seven hundred million? Andrew Cohen:So it raised and then it merged. Chris Erwin:So then it begs the question, Andrew, why is there all this market activity? And particularly, I think just over the past two to three months, it feels like there's been a major uptick. And I think with all the rumors that we just walked through and more, that we can come back after the August vacation and Q3, Q4 is just a wild M&A sprint. So why is this happening? Andrew Cohen:Like a lot of other pods we've done, all roads lead back to the streaming wars. So content and IP, what we're seeing, is more valuable than ever before because of the exorbitant spends that we're seeing in the streaming wars as consumption is shifting from traditional TV and film onto the streaming platforms. And so the major players: Netflix, Disney+, HBO Max, and now Discovery, all of them are spending more and more in the billions every year on content and marketing to increase customer acquisition, to reduce churn, and to maximize lifetime value, and to ultimately win the future of entertainment when it's a streaming-first world. And in this world, content is more valuable than ever before. It's content-exclusive IP. It drives user acquisition. It minimizes churn. And what we've seen is it's new tentpole originals of things like Stranger Things that really boosts user acquisitions. Andrew Cohen:People come on to be part of the zeitgeist, watch these new shows. And then library content, so things like The Office, boost user retention. People stay there to watch these comfort food shows. And I think that that explains a lot of the acquisition and investment activity that we're seeing. So things like Hello Sunshine and A24, I see as more of a bet on future output of new tentpole originals for user acquisition. Both of those studios do have a great library of content, but I think it's more about taking a bet on best-in-class creators to continue to churn out the type of best-in-class content that's going to bring people to the platform. Andrew Cohen:Then things like the MGM acquisition by Amazon, I think that that was really a big bet on library. They have classic IP like James Bond. Chris Erwin:Don't forget Pink Panther. Andrew Cohen:Of course. The list goes on, I'm sure. Rocky. Roku, who recently did the same acquiring the Quibi library. So that's going to be the type of stuff that keeps people on the platform, reduces churn, and maximizes user retention. So really, a catchphrase I hear a lot from people in that world is that as the streaming wars are going on, it's these production companies that are the bullet makers, and that makes them more valuable than ever before in today's [inaudible 00:04:18] . Chris Erwin:So a few things to break down there. I think a point about investing in production companies/studios, where you're going to get a team that you believe is going to make a lot of high quality and differentiated content in the future that is going to help drive user acquisition through temporal content. And just even having a really great library, which drives retention, which is increasingly important as there's more and more competition, right? Someone churns off, the ability to get them back becomes even more expensive, as now there's HBO Max and there's Peacock and all the niche streamers, et cetera. And I think that is something that is reflected in Netflix's recent re-upping of their deal with Shondaland, right? So that was the first big talent landmark deal with the streamer. I think dating back to around 2016, 2017, that set off a big talent buying spree of Ryan Murphy with Netflix and a handful of others. But clearly it worked out for Netflix, right? The number one performing Netflix show is Bridgerton, which was done through the Shondaland partnership. And I think they're betting that that's going to happen again. Andrew Cohen:On a similar point, even the second-tier streamers like Paramount Plus. You just saw Viacom CBS just spent $900 million on a deal with the creators of South Park to turn out new seasons of the show and even new movies. So again, taking this bet on fresh content, beloved IP to drive acquisition and retention. Chris Erwin:The dynamics that we are talking about now is where we're seeing that there is a very viable business model for this content. I think it's worth noting that you look at a price tag that we're seeing for what's rumored for Spring Hill or 900 million for Hello Sunshine. And you're like, how does this make any sense? On a standalone basis, do these companies make enough revenue and EBITDA that drives that independent valuation. Chris Erwin:But the point is the independent valuation is not what matters. It's about the integrated value that is going to be created in the business model of a streamer. And I think back to my early days in the digital world where I started out in digital YouTube and MCN, so I was part of Big Frame, which is then sold to Awesomeness. But in that vintage of 2012, 2013, you saw incredible investment where I think it was Comcast and Time Warner Cable were investing in Maker Studios and Full Screen and Dreamworks Animation, but Awesomeness pretty early on in 2012, if I remember, 2013. And there was all this hope, which is like, okay, when you looked at the Comscore data of these MCNs, just the amount of digital traffic to them was incredible. Chris Erwin:And so the bet from these traditional cable or media businesses, is like, we don't have the business model now to extract revenues, but we're sure we'll figure it out. With traffic and audience, revenue will come. But the reality is, that never actually really happened, and there was also massive changes in the platform algorithms in YouTube or in Facebook, which caused viewership to just tank overnight. A lot of things that were outside of the control. But today these dynamics, the business model is much more solid and the environment is much more stable, because these companies are going, like a Netflix or a Peacock's, going direct to consumer. They're not relying on a third party platform. So it actually makes sense. So I just thought that's an interesting parallel, comparing my weirdo digital history. Andrew Cohen:Absolutely. I think the fact that you refer to 2013 as vintage, I think shows how fast this space is moving. And I think what you just said about the stable operating environment on the buy side for the platforms, I think is just as true on the sell side as well, comparing this premium OTT landscape to the wild wild west of early stage digital video. Because I think a lot of these bets on early stage YouTube traders, MCNs, where you catch lightning in a bottle, but then the algorithm shifts, trends shifts. I think right now, when you look at companies like an A24 or a Hello Sunshine ,who have been able to consistently produce the [inaudible 00:08:11] best-in-class movies, TV that people connect with. I think that that is a safer bet that someone like a Netflix or an Apple can bring them onto their platform and say, "Keep making that, but make it for us." And that there's consistency and reliability there that they're going to continue to turn out the type of premium fair that brings people onto the platform. Chris Erwin:There's also another trend that's happening here in the buyer-verse that's worth calling out. And that is the fact that really large private equity, blue-chip companies are getting involved in the content bidding wars. So specifically, right, we saw Apollo over the past few months, acquire Yahoo and AOL from Verizon for a few billion. And then Hello Sunshine, again, was acquired by a Blackstone-backed private equity vehicle. From my history in digital and entertainment, particularly over the past five to seven years, you wouldn't see these big PE firms making these size bets in media, typically. But I think the tides have turned. And the reason is, I think these are going to be, short-term holds. The private equity owners are sophisticated. They don't want a standalone basis that these companies are not going to drive meaningful revenue and cashflow. Chris Erwin:But like you said, the streamer war dynamics means that there's going to be an aggressive buying race over the next two to three years. It's not going away over the next six months. It's going to increase. And if these firms can buy up a bunch of media assets, consolidate them, get them to a certain scale, and even potentially, who knows? Is the next Shondaland deal with Netflix? Will we start seeing equivalents of that with Apollo and Blackstone packaged into their new media portfolios? Potentially. And then they're going to flip them for a good profit, I think, in the next 36 months. So I wasn't seeing this coming, but it seems to make sense. Andrew Cohen:How do you think that the increasing stack presence plays into all this? Chris Erwin:Obviously Buzzfeed is going public in a spec and is using spec proceeds and other investment to roll up complex, as well. As these digitally native companies, again, are realizing increased scale through consolidation, then getting more investment through spec, maybe they're upping their quality of programming. And they're looking at really premium franchises, like say Hot Ones under Complex or Buzzfeed Tasty, and say, "How can we go even bigger and make this attractive to a Netflix or a Peacock or a Discovery and align with their Food Network programming?" Yeah. Maybe that also feeds the wars in the future. I don't know. That's my two cents. Andrew Cohen:Totally makes sense. So as we look at what you just said, that PE, they're holding for this big buying spree to come as values are inflating for content and IP, I think makes you think of who these buyers are going to be. One thing that comes to mind is just the OTT platforms themselves. So, and we're already seeing platforms spending tons of money on output deals. You mentioned Shondaland, Viacom, CBS. Would it make sense for them to follow the Disney model? Like what Disney did acquiring Pixar or Marvel, and acquiring studios outright to own the process from end to end, from development to distribution. And then I think beyond that, there's a few other potential buyers in the market. Like consumer product brands. We saw Apple is one of the companies that are better being rumored to buy A24. Nike is one of the companies being rumored to buy SpringHill. So I think as we're seeing media and commerce merge and content become this universal truth, I could definitely see a world where these studios serve real value to companies even outside of the streaming wars, as we know it. Chris Erwin:Well, I think of note, Andrew, that there's just also not a lot of premium studio assets left, right? MGM was taken off the table, Legendary was taken off the table. I think Lionsgate is rumored. I think a question that I'm left with is like, what are these other assets that could be exciting for, say, new buyers for these CPG companies. Like a Nike, for example. So here's a crazy thought. Thinking about the next big source of digitally-native IP that caters to these new, young fandoms that are going to become older and want to have loyalty with platforms over the years, might some of these streamers start dipping their toes in acquiring large metaverse creators or worlds? Is that something we might see? I think that's top of mind because we're doing some work that's relevant in that space, but just a random thought that came to me. Andrew Cohen:Absolutely. I think eyeballs follow content and IP that they connect with. And right now, especially for younger audiences, a lot of that is being originated in the metaverse. So definitely wouldn't be surprised to see that adapted by the main streaming platforms, I think even just, again, expanding the [inaudible 00:12:50] power defining the streaming wars, there's also what we call the AVOD wars or the fast wars outside of subscription platforms like Netflix and HBO. You have the Roku's, the Tubi's of the world that amassing huge audiences at a really big footprint. But right now it's still a really commodified space. And we've been seeing some moves into original content programming by them to differentiate them and their offerings in the marketplace, like the Quibi library acquisition that we mentioned earlier. But I could definitely see them moving more and more upstream to more premium tentpole originals. And to do that, I think acquiring a studio or production company would make a lot of sense. Chris Erwin:Yeah. I think the core business model for those AVOD and fast platforms is selling ad inventory across their third party content. But we know that the negotiation rights for selling that inventory, that is a constant battle with their partners, and who knows how the terms are going to change. And so where they have more control, is there more owned content hubs that they're creating, which gives them not only more ad inventory, but also a differentiated user experience relative to their other fast peers, right? Andrew Cohen:With a bigger user base, bigger control of the market and audience size, you have more leverage with those ad partners. I think the most viable way to gain market share, and like I said, it's kind of a commodified space, is by having differentiated premium content offering that can make Roku the go-to AVOD platform. And then once you own that audience, you could now have a lot more leverage in the ad market. Chris Erwin:We all know a lot of marketers are really frustrated by the fact that they are not able to participate in the SVOD environment. So we know marketers have been clamoring, Netflix say, like, "Let us in." Also create an ad based model. Now we're seeing that HBO max and peacock have ad-based support. But I think a lot of these marketers still want more premium content environments to advertise to consumers in. And I think the fast platforms are going to offer that for them as that demand goes up. I think that's yet another reason why they're going to start investing in more premium content, to get those ad dollars. But Andrew, I think that we are backing up against our time limit here. So unless there's any final points, I think we've got to say, "Till next time." Andrew Cohen:Next time. See you then.

Dan Levitt is the founder and CEO of Long Haul Management. We discuss how Dan paid rent while making only $6,000 a year out of college (many side hustles), beating me in an office rap battle, Disney's big miss in digital music, executive producing one of YouTube's premium original series, and what it's like to represent some of the biggest sports and gamer personalities on the Internet.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com---Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Dan Levitt:I chose the safer Disney route. Again, I needed to pay the bills. But I made a promise to myself. Every day, I saw someone else doing what I wanted to do. They were the AbsolutePunks of the world. Or there were other people who turned the music blog into an A&R career, or leveraged it in other ways.I'm good at seeing gaps in the marketplace and where could you go in it. I made a promise. The next time I see it, I'm fucking going for it. Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Dan Levitt, the founder and CEO of Long Haul Management. Dan grew up in Boston with an early love for music and yet-to-be-discovered bands. So, after wrapping a few acts in high school and interning at Philly radio stations during college, he kicked off his career by moving to LA with absolutely no job prospects.But after a few A&R gigs at Columbia Records and Disney, Dan was early to see how digital and YouTube were going to transform the music industry. So, he left traditional media and kicked off his digital career, joining one of the early YouTube multichannel networks, company called Big Frame.We actually worked together there. And in less than nine months, I actually had to lay him off. Dan struck out on his own, positioned himself as the YouTube guy for the music industry and started his own talent shop, Long Haul Management.Some highlights of our chat include how Dan paid rent while making only $6,000 a year when he first moved to LA ... You'll crack up at some of his many side hustles ... when he beat me in an office rap battle, executive producing one of YouTube's premium original series, and what it's like to represent some of the biggest sports and gamer personalities on the internet. All right, let's get to it. Dan, thanks for being and the podcast. Dan Levitt:Thanks for having me. Chris Erwin:Awesome. I believe that you're a fellow East Coaster like myself. So tell me, where did you grow up? Dan Levitt:Sure, I'm from a nice suburb of Boston, Newton, Massachusetts. Literally voted safest city in America back when I was younger. So, nice Jewish suburb of Boston. Chris Erwin:Got it. It's funny. I went to underground at Tufts in Medford/Somerville. I think, while I was there, it was rated one of the most dangerous mafia-driven neighborhoods in the Northeast, or all of the US. So, quite the opposite of you. What was your household like? What were your family and parents doing? Dan Levitt:So, one, my parents are both from South Africa. They moved to the US in, I think, '77. My dad went to school for engineering, and then got a job in Boston, and then eventually started his own software business that really had a bunch of ups and downs. Mostly ups, and then fortunately sold to IBM right before the big bubble burst there. So, the timing was fortunate. Dan Levitt:And then my mom was artist. So, had all kinds of different things she would do in the art space, be it theater, be it actual prints and displays and stuff. Chris Erwin:Okay, very cool. It's funny. I've known you for about a decade and I had no idea your parents were from South Africa. Look, you're an entrepreneur. You've built out an incredible talent management firm. We're going to get to that in a bit. But you have entrepreneurial roots in your family. Dan Levitt:It's interesting now. I remember my dad would come back ... I think maybe at the height, he had 50, 60 people. Maybe more. I remember growing up, he'd come back from work and we'd be watching a Celtics game. It was the most exciting game ever, especially, they were really good back then. Dan Levitt:And he would fall asleep, and I'd be like, "How in the world can you possibly fall asleep during this game?" And now, I'm like, "Yep, I get it." Yeah, I could totally get how you could be so wiped out the day that, no matter what is on TV, you're just out. Dan Levitt:I mean, what was really interesting is, my parents went through a kind of messy divorce. We don't need to get into that but that's a whole fun story. But what's interesting is, when they separated, he stayed with a friend for a bit. And he went from sleeping in the basement of a friend's house to selling his business to IBM in a year. Dan Levitt:There were a lot of times that people told him, because the business had some challenges over the years, there were a lot of people that told him that he should declare bankruptcy with the business. But he stayed with it. And eventually, it worked out for him. I'm sure, hopefully, some of the resiliency I have, learned from him. Chris Erwin:Wow. Awesome. I have to ask. Being from Boston, a lot of media professionals from Boston have a pretty strong Boston identity. I think of Dave Portnoy in Barstool Sports, and Bill Simmons from The Ringer. Do you think of yourself like that, or your total West Coast transplant now? Dan Levitt:It's not just specific to Boston, but especially in the Northeast, there's a certain intensity and, I think, an edge that you can have, where in Boston, in traffic, if someone cuts you off, you scream at each other. And that's just acceptable and that's how you vent, right? Dan Levitt:In LA, it's much different than that. I'm in LA now. On the West Coast, people are more scared of confrontation. If you scream at someone, that's a really big deal. I think there's just a certain firm mentality that you have where it's pretty hard to bother me or get under my skin. Dan Levitt:I have thick skin. I do think part of that is just growing up in a culture where people are so up front with that. I also think, to a certain extent, growing up in cold climate where the weather is pretty brutal, and you just have to plow through it, does give some sort of mental toughness. Chris Erwin:I think that's totally right. I think there's this saying. I hope I'm not butchering it. But it's, "In New York, when people are saying, 'Fuck you,' they're saying, 'Good morning.' In the West Coast, when they say, 'Good morning,' they're saying, 'Fuck you.'" Dan Levitt:Yeah. I mean, but it's more so ... I remember in one of my first PA jobs in LA, I had a disagreement with another PA about the way things should be done. And then later on, I was brought into the office by my supervisor and they're like, "Dan, you were screaming at them. Why?" Dan Levitt:And I was like, "I wasn't screaming at them. I was telling them something they didn't want to hear in a certain tone. If I was screaming at them, they would know. Everybody would know." So, that was really the first ... I just moved to LA and I was like, "Shit, I got to really be cognizant of how I talk to people out here. They're going to think I'm a fucking lunatic," which, to a certain extent, is true. But maybe I need to slow play that a bit. Keep my response- Chris Erwin:It's part of your je ne sais quoi, as they say. Nothing- Dan Levitt:Yeah. I mean, you know me really well. But for people who just meet me, I can be a lot. Chris Erwin:Yeah, so let's actually talk about how you got to where you are today. I think, trying to get a sense of, was there a glimpse in your early days of you entering entertainment, becoming a talent manager? I think about things that you had mentioned that you were looking at unsigned bands in high school in the '90s. Tell me about that. Dan Levitt:My skillset is, I'm really good at seeing patterns and seeing where things are going, right? Before they get there. So, I think that's what I'm best at, be it entertainment or trends. I've done okay in the stock market, investing and stuff. So, specific to your question, yeah. Dan Levitt:My first real strong passion was music. I heard Green Day and it changed my life. And I was like, "This is it." And then I definitely have the personality type where if I'm into something, I'm all the way fucking in. So, if I like Green Day, okay, I need ever record they've ever had. Dan Levitt:So, I started, the mid '90s or so, music was starting to shift to digital, right? So, you used to discover bands on the radio, and then around that time, there started to be primitive websites. Around when Napster first came out, there started to be people who would put MP3s online, right? Dan Levitt:So, now here are these blogs that are hosting MP3s. So, they would be posting bands that would be signed to record labels. And I would like these bands. I'd find then, I'd like them, and then they'd get big a year later. It was like, "Oh, I'm pretty good at knowing which bands are going to be big later." Dan Levitt:And then, one site in particular started focusing on unsigned bands, and I said, "Oh, these unsigned bands are pretty good. I think they're going to make it." And then they would get signed and they would make it. So, I saw, "Hey, I'm pretty good at ... " Dan Levitt:And I started learning more about the industry. And at that point, originally, my job was to, "Hey, I wanted to work as a music direct on the radio helping find the songs." And then I realized, "Hey, actually the best way I can help musicians is to work at a record label." So then, it was my dream to be an A&R guy to sign a band and help them break. Chris Erwin:And any genre focus? What types of music were you listening to? Was it Green Day punk? Stuff like that? Dan Levitt:More like the new metal, like the Korn. I know you're obviously a huge Limp Bizkit fan. That kind of stuff. Chris Erwin:Three Dollar Bill, Y'all Dan Levitt:Sure, exactly, right? Around that time was the Linkin Parks of the world and that kind of stuff. That was really the scene that I was into. I still had an appreciation for more pop music and stuff like that. But really, the rock, I would say, is the genre that I was into and certainly having a great moment then. Dan Levitt:Yeah, so then there were a few sites. And I remember trying to email people, and bands, and managers, and see what I could do. But I was just a kid in high school. Again, this is, I'm downloading songs over a dial-up modem. Chris Erwin:DSL. Dan Levitt:Yeah, exactly. This was not how easy it was today. That was the dream. But I didn't know anyone at entertainment. There was no path to it. I was like, "Could I start my own record label and fund it?" But that seemed so far from being feasible. Chris Erwin:Yeah, were you reaching out to any of these bands direct, or was it, you're just thinking about what you want to do after college? Dan Levitt:Yeah, I had a buddy from summer camp who was, at the same time ... This is the late '90s. He started interning at record labels in New York and started getting a bit of traction. So, we were talking about, "Hey, maybe we should start our own label." And there were one or two bands that we approached. They didn't really respond. It didn't go anywhere. Chris Erwin:Oh, I would've loved to have been a fly on the wall to hear the pitch of you pitching a band in high school to sign with you. Dan Levitt:I forget what the value proposition was, but that band didn't really go anywhere. They probably should've given us a shot. Chris Erwin:You're doing this in high school, and then you end up going to Temple University in Philly. Does the dream start to take form there? What happens? Dan Levitt:No. I wanted to be a bit more conservative. And I was like, "Hey, I know I want to get into entertainment. I know I want to be on the business side. What's interesting to me is the intersection of art and commerce. But these jobs are going to be really hard to get. So, as a background, why don't I get a business degree, just to give me some kind of stability and baseline of knowledge?" Dan Levitt:So, I went to school at Temple. There's all kinds of story. My dorm room burnt down freshman year. Just the craziest shit happened. Chris Erwin:Wait, did you cause that or was it somebody else? Dan Levitt:No, no. Well, it's a point of contention. My roommate was lighting candles for some reason at 10:00 in the morning. But the fire marshal said it was electrical outlet. It's a whole thing. But anyways, went to Temple. Actually, before I left, I interned at a radio station in Boston. Then I interned at radio stations in Philly because that was really the only ... Dan Levitt:There weren't record labels in Boston, at least that I was aware of, in Philly. So, I just interned at radio in hope that I could make my way up there. But then I saw, man, the radio jobs ... I mean, and this was back then. I could only imagine now. Radio's not glamorous at all. It's really bare bones. The budgets are next to nothing. No one leaves these jobs. The jobs didn't pay great. Dan Levitt:So, I realized, "Hey, I thought I wanted to do radio, but this is not for me." And then that was more like, "Okay, I want to work for a record label." That was the dream. Be an A&R guy. Chris Erwin:In graduating Temple, which I think is around 2004, do you go immediately ... Do you have a job lined up? Like you're going to a record label. You're pumped going to the big city? Dan Levitt:I don't know why. I wasn't really actively hustling for a gig. I guess I assumed, "Oh, the college sets up some interviews and stuff." Nothing. So, a couple of my buddies went there. Temple has a really good film program, so most of my friends actually weren't on the business program. They were more on the film side. Dan Levitt:So, a couple of my buddies were moving out to LA to get started in their careers. So, I knew the music industry at that time was really New York or LA. And the last winter in Boston, the high was like eight degrees. I'm not one to complain about the cold, but I was too fucking cold. Dan Levitt:So, I was like, "Do I move to New York with no gig where it's crazy expensive and the weather's brutal, or maybe I should I try LA and see what it's like over there." So, I moved here without any job, and hoping that I'd figure it out. Chris Erwin:So, you're showing up without a lot of savings. No clear job prospects. Moving with a couple friends but don't really know anyone on the West Coast. So, there's a timeline here where it's like, "Hey, I got to figure something out probably in the next couple months," right? Dan Levitt:Totally. Maybe a couple grand. Thankfully, at least rent back then was a lot less than it is now. I think me and my buddies got a house in Glendale ... well, maybe Eagle Rock area or Glassell Park for maybe $1,000 between us three. It was pretty inexpensive. I had some cost but I had a little bit of room to work with there. Chris Erwin:Yeah, so you show up with maybe a couple suitcases. You're in LA. What's your mentality? Are you pumped? Are you excited? Are you also scared? And then what do you start doing to sow your roots? Dan Levitt:Really, it was just like, "Okay, I have a business degree. Surely, I can get an entry-level job somewhere doing marketing." And just nothing. Barely interviews. Fucking nothing. So, I was just like, "All right, let me just ... " Couple of my buddies started PAing, so I did some PA gigs. Dan Levitt:But even in those gigs, you really have to hustle. You have to networks. And the gig ends and then you've got to get another job. And then that one ends. You got to get another job. I didn't really want to jump from job to job. There's late-night shoots. It would mess up my sleep schedule. Dan Levitt:I was a much different person. I was a lot lazier. I didn't think things would come to me. I just thought it would be easier. Chris Erwin:It's funny to hear you say that, because who you are now, who I have seen you evolve from since the Big Frame days in 2013, right? When you left. You are such a go-getter. Eye on the ball. Laser focus. Massive hustler. So, I guess this was an important experience for you to train that muscle and change your mentality. Dan Levitt:For some background, I am not a type ... Now, I'm probably type A, but I promise you, I was not type A. For context, I don't know what my GPA was in high school. Maybe a 2.3. It was not good at all. At all. I was a bad student. For context, in second grade, I already wasn't doing homework just I couldn't be bothered to do it. I could do it. Dan Levitt:I could pass everything and do it well. For some reason, it wasn't interesting to me. Probably wasn't until after I left Big Frame when I really had to figure stuff out for my own. But I had to really flip that switch and become that person. There's some people who just born type A. That's been a constant evolution for me. Chris Erwin:But your first job, you do get an A&R job at Columbia Records, which is part of Sony Music, I think in March 2005. How did that come to be and what was that experience like? Dan Levitt:Oh, this is a great story about how this ends. The buddy I mentioned earlier who was interning at record labels, he was able to move up. I think he was actually probably the youngest A&R guy in Sony history, at least at the time. He helped get John Legend signed and Coheed and Cambria. So, after John- Chris Erwin:Favorite band, Coheed and Cambria. Jersey band in the metalcore punk-ish type scene. Love them. Dan Levitt:Yeah, I think that was one of the first things he got signed. And then after he helped get John Legend signed, who they had passed on maybe five or six times, then they started, "Oh, maybe we should listen to him." He got promoted. At the time, the music industry was really going through an interesting transition. This is 2005. Dan Levitt:So, this is after the height of the boy band and rock. CD sales are declining now, relative to all-time highs. What was happening was, you were seeing a lot of executive turnover. So, a lot of execs who got these amazing lucrative deals in the good old days were getting or not renewed. So, there was a lot of turnover. Dan Levitt:So, what happened was, at that time, most of the A&R people for Columbia Records were in New York. But they needed someone lower level in LA to go see shows for them, especially at that point, the live shows. Especially in rock and other genres is a big part of a band's success. Dan Levitt:They didn't really have anyone lower and my buddy knew that I was still hustling. I'm working retail at that point. I'm working at The Vitamin Shoppe just to pay the bills, right? Because I didn't want the hustle of the random PA gigs. Keep in mind, I'm still applying for marketing jobs at a Nestle's and other more consumer products. Dan Levitt:I'm applying at entertainment too, but everyone is entry ... And this is even worse now. An entry-level job, they want you to have experience. I didn't have any work experience. I had a couple internships. So, I'm just working retail. My buddy is basically able to get me a job working for Columbia Records, but part-time, right? Dan Levitt:So, I'm basically working at The Vitamin Shoppe during the day, and then at night, going out and doing A&R for Columbia Records, albeit, in a part-time capacity. And I'm just fucking praying that no one I know from the music world comes into the store. Dan Levitt:So, it's really a one foot in, one foot out. And I'm basically just trying to do what I can to find the next great act for them to sign. So, that I can get recognized, and that I can do this full-time, and quit the soul-sucking day job. Chris Erwin:How much were you making as an A&R exec at this point? Dan Levitt:I might have been making maybe $125 a week. I think it was definitely between six and seven grand a year. So, not by any means enough to pay the bills, but not terrible, especially back then as a side. Keep in mind, if you look at it from an hourly perspective, I'm not really doing much. Maybe I go to one or two shows a night. Dan Levitt:By the way, I'm on the guest list for shows. I can walk into The Viper Room and the people there know me. I can just go in. So, I'm seeing amazing shows. I'm meeting people in the industry. I'm meeting managers. Meanwhile, anyone I meet, I'm trying to see if I can work with them. Dan Levitt:I'm applying for job after job. Entry-level manager assistant, $24,000. I'm applying. At that point, I have Columbia Records on my resume, and still barely getting bites. Even then, for whatever reason, I wasn't getting the gigs. It was a really, really tough time. Dan Levitt:It's worth noting, this was before the tech started. This was before SoundCloud. This is before some of the first music startups. So, there really wasn't much opportunity to get a gig somewhere. I interviewed at some of the music marketing companies like Streetwise. Dan Levitt:And this is building street teams and digital street teams. I wanted to do all that shit. I had some experience and still couldn't get in. Columbia Records. So one, it's kind of laughable now, but I discovered Arctic Monkeys extremely early. They only had three songs online. No one had heard of them in the US. No sales. Nothing. Dan Levitt:So, I have a bunch of buddies that I would send songs to. This is when The Strokes are first hitting, right? I find them on one of the music blogs that I like. These songs are ... I'm into them but I don't love it. I send it to a bunch of buddies and universally, everyone of them were like, "This is the best thing you've ever sent." Dan Levitt:And I was like, "Really? Wow." So then, I pitched them to Columbia Records and they're, "Oh, this is cool. It's this cool indie rock thing. But it's three guys in the UK. There's no sales. There's no history. It'd be really hard for us to fly them back and forth. But thanks for bringing it up." Dan Levitt:I didn't really know that I had to keep following up. "Hey, there's starting to be some noise." I didn't know. No one taught me how to do A&R or how to pitch, had to follow up. Again, it's not like I'm going into an office. I'm just remote because I still had the day gig. Dan Levitt:So, anyways, eventually there were Arctic Monkeys and Lily Allen, a few things that I pitched that ended up hitting eventually. And then it got to the point where Sony Music was having a weekend where they were bringing in ever Sony Music employee to New York to do this whole song and dance about their roster. Dan Levitt:So, I basically request vacation time from my dad gig to go to New York. Again, Columbia Records is paying me $125 a week, but they're flying me to New York and put me up in a fancy hotel. Chris Erwin:It's like half your salary. Dan Levitt:Oh, no, by far, they spent way more on this. I mean, anyways, it was a weekend in Greenwich, Connecticut with the A&R team. So, I get called into the head A&R's office on the Friday. He's like, "Hey, Dan, I have some great news for you. Thanks for everything you've done. We're going to make you full-time. We're just waiting to hear from accounting on how much that's going to be. We'll get back to you." Dan Levitt:And I'm like, "This is what I've been fucking working my whole life for." And then right afterwards, we get on the bus to go to Greenwich, Connecticut. And Columbia had just brought on Steve Lillywhite, the producer who produced all the big U2 records, Dave Matthews. Albums I fucking grew up on. I'm shooting the shit with him now. Dan Levitt:We go to the head of the label's house, and there's all these Korn, and Rage Against the Machine, and all these albums that were so meaningful to me. All the plaques. It was a weekend where I felt like I was one of them now. My whole life, I've been trying to get in, and now I'm finally in. Still today one of the best weekends of my life. Dan Levitt:And then I fly back and it's Monday. And I'm back in the day job. And I'm just waiting for the phone call. I'm just waiting for the phone call about how much more money it's going to be. I'm so fucking ready. I get the call. "Hey, Dan, we have some bad news. We're not going to have room for you anymore. Sorry, but thanks for everything you've done." Chris Erwin:Wow. Just fast like that? Almost no emotion? Just, boom. Dan Levitt:No, no, to his credit, he was really apologetic. But I was fucking shellshocked because the call I got where I thought, "Okay, this is the phone call. I'm about to quit. I'm about to quit day job," was just the carpet ripped out from under me. Dan Levitt:I had the day job but at least I was grinding at night, hoping to get somewhere. Now, that was taken from me. And now I'm like, "Fuck, I'm about to be 25 with a business degree, working retail. This is not how I thought shit was going to go." Dan Levitt:So, it ends up being revealed later on, it wasn't clear at that time, but basically, Columbia Records was bringing on Rick Rubin and he wanted his own people. But it was just a gut shot at the time. Chris Erwin:So, Dan, you get into a few side hustle. And I think one of them culminates in you doing chat room marketing for cream cheese. But tell us a couple highlights here because I think some of these side hustles, like swap meets, is still involved in your life today. Dan Levitt:It's always fun for me, trying to figure out new ways to make money. It's a lot easier now with the internet and stuff. It wasn't back then. I was a big focus group slut. I would do anything. Promote anything. So, I would get really good at filling out focus group surveys. Dan Levitt:I knew how they wanted you to answer, and so I would do ... For example, I've been paid to eat tofu. I've been paid to eat gum. I've been paid to eat McDonald's breakfast sandwiches. I got paid to play a Xbox Kinect before it came out. I've been paid to look at marketing materials. Dan Levitt:I've been paid to play with phones, and gadgets, and look at Cirque du Soleil. All kinds of stuff. Especially in LA, I'm sure this is the case in maybe a lot of big cities, but there's a lot of companies that do focus groups both in person. And I was just a maniac. Dan Levitt:There were a few Twitter accounts that popped up from those. It's like, "Hey, if you're this and you're this, fill it out." So, I would just ... whatever I could to try to get in. Chris Erwin:And this was paying the bills for you, so this was important. Dan Levitt:I think one year, I made maybe eight grand doing it. My first couple years in LA, I might have made only $20, $30 grand, so it was pretty significant. There was a store in LA that, on Sundays, would sell clothes, some vintage, some new, for a dollar. Dan Levitt:I would go and I'd buy most of the men's stuff. I'd list it on eBay. Basically, anything I sold it for was profit. I ended up getting fired from The Vitamin Shoppe. That's not really an interesting story. There was a company doing ... This would be summer 2008. They were doing experimental digital marketing. Dan Levitt:So, they were basically going into chat rooms essentially spamming message points. But then also, you had to have one-on-one conversations with people where you'd have to work in talking points, which was really fucking hard. Especially, how do you work cream cheese into a conversation organically? But I got fucking really good at it. Dan Levitt:So, within two days, I got so good at it that, by the end of the first week, I was promoted to the night shift manager. So, you would drop the campaign talking points into the chat. But really, it was all about these one-on-one conversations because basically, this agency would take those conversations, chop them up, make them clean, and then share it with the brand, and, "Hey, look, we're doing this subtle marketing for you." Chris Erwin:What was one of the lines that was something that you custom crafted that you were known for? Dan Levitt:This is really interesting psychology. What everyone else would do was, they would try to hit up a million people to try to find one, and try to work it in. They would brute force it. I took the opposite approach. I was like, "I'm going to ask other people online about themselves, and then just as conversations go, they'll flip it. And they'll ask me about myself." Dan Levitt:And then I'm like, "Oh, yeah." Put one of the common ... "Oh, what do you do for work?" I'm not going to say the brand's name but it's a city where I went to school. But it's like, "Hey," we couldn't say, "I work at." We had to say, "I work with X cream cheese company." "Oh, really? I love cream cheese. Cool." Dan Levitt:And then it's like, "Oh, what do you use it on?" "Oh, I can use it for cheesecakes or stuff like that." Or there's another site that's harder to use but you could actually see people's images. Think Myspace era. It wasn't Myspace but similar. Dan Levitt:So, I would identify people that I thought, based on physical attributes, might be interested in cream cheese. And I'd just message them and chat with them. But man, that was one of the funnest jobs I ever had, more so because, as a guy, it's not so bad. You're mostly talking to girls. As a girl on the internet trying to talk to guys about cream cheese, the kind of shit that they would hear was just- Chris Erwin:Probably a dark rabbit that we will not go down. So, Dan, then you head to A&R at Disney around September 2008. How did that come to be? Dan Levitt:My roommate used to do HR for Disney, right? So, keep in mind, at that point actually, I'd left the cream cheese job. And I'm working in a movie theater. I'm making $8.50 an hour. I got my side hustles. So, I see a job posting for A&R coordinator. Dan Levitt:I ping my roommate and I'm like, "Hey, do you know the recruiter for this gig?" And he did. It was someone he used to work closely with. So, I was able to customize my resume and it went directly to the recruiter from a friendly ... I remember the weekend I saw the job, I was in Chicago for a wedding. Dan Levitt:And I remember holding back my friend for an hour, so I could tweak it before we went and got pizza. I applied on a Friday. And then I got back and basically, I think that day, the recruiter called. I had a phone interview. And basically, the next Friday, I had a gig. Chris Erwin:Wow. That moved very fast in contrast to your other stuff. Dan Levitt:Unheard of for Disney. And the salary was in the mid-40s. Again, I had a Columbia Records gig, but it paid next to nothing. And now, I have an A&R job at Disney with a real fucking salary and amazing benefits, and it happened so quick. And I had been out here for five years grinding. Just grinding. Chris Erwin:Did you feel you had made it at that point, like, "I've made it. I'm here"? Dan Levitt:It wasn't that I made it. It was that I made it out of retail because to this day, I ... There's absolutely nothing wrong with working retail, I did it forever, but I don't want to do it again. I don't want to interact with the public. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe how fast it happened. And just like that, my whole world changed. Dan Levitt:I was so appreciative and so thankful to have a gig that provided some stability that was in a industry that I wanted. You meet someone, you tell them you work for Disney, it changes the perception of you, right? And certainly for me, who'd been trying to get a real industry gig, it was fun to ... I knew that I had the chops, and it was finally someone recognizing it. Chris Erwin:Hey, listeners, this is Chris Erwin, your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you could give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work and it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it, everybody. Let's get back to the interview. Chris Erwin:After this, you end up going to, call it, the YouTube revolution of Big Frame. So, I'm just curious, while you're at Disney, was there anything about emerging media, digitally native artists that you were focused on during those four years? Trying to sense a through line here. Dan Levitt:After I left the Columbia Records gig or got let go, I saw these people who had these music blogs that were starting to go with their own reputations as tastemakers. So, I thought, "Oh, maybe I should do that for myself. Maybe instead of working for a record label and being a tastemaker, maybe I should do that on my own, with my blog or something." Dan Levitt:But I didn't really have the technical prowess to do the blog stuff. It seems like, "Oh, it should've been easy." Blogs and stuff were not easy back then. So actually, I started doing online video. I bought an HD camera. This must've been very early YouTube days. Dan Levitt:But I actually, with a buddy, recorded some HD music industry podcasts where we talked about music industry news and stuff. But I think I would post it on YouTube, but sadly and stupidly, because YouTube didn't monetize then, I put it on Revver where they did monetize. R-E-V-V-E-R was sort of a YouTube competitor at the time that did monetize. Dan Levitt:And I was like, "Oh, I want to make money doing this," so even though there's more audience on YouTube, I put it there. And nothing happened that I didn't ... It was hard relying on my buddy, who was great to schedule this. I didn't stick with it. So, I didn't stick with it. But I was doing it semi-consistently. Dan Levitt:But then when I got the Disney job, I asked if I could continue doing it, and they were like, "No, you're doing A&R for us. You obviously can't be talking about acts that aren't signed to Disney." So, I put that on the side and then I saw the early podcast boom. Dan Levitt:Again, I'm listening to Bill Simmons. I'm listening to Carolla. Saw the podcast thing happening. So, while I'm at Disney, especially I'm a couple year in, it was a decent job but my department is pretty strict. I wasn't given the freedom that you would think an A&R guy would have. It was a lot more administrative. Dan Levitt:It was a glorified assistant, right? It wasn't an A&R role. They truly did not care about my opinion for acts in my estimation, especially the label side. I worked for the publishing side. I tried to get in with the label guys and it didn't really work. Dan Levitt:A couple years in, I'm starting to think, "Okay, I got to get out of here." This was great, but I'm like, "I'm going to be a 30-year-old A&R guy who's never got anything signed. And if lose this gig ... " And again, this is the industry especially 2008, 2009, 2010, sales are going way down. Dan Levitt:This is when streaming is just starting. So, I'm trying to meet whoever I can, right? So actually, this is when SoundCloud first starts. I was up for a gig there. I had some friends record some messages recommending me. I had a great relationship of amazing songwriters and artists that I was an advocate for, that hadn't really made it or were just starting to. Dan Levitt:I tried to get at SongKit and all these things that were starting. I actually tried to get a job at Spotify. I'm actually one of the first 500 people in the US to have a Spotify account. I had an account for two years before it launched. Chris Erwin:I think what I'm hearing is that you've also applied to every single music company, I think, in the world by this point. Dan Levitt:Yeah, but especially the good ones, right? I loved what SoundCloud was doing. Really at the time, they were so innovative. And they were solving their big problem, which was hosting audio. The role that I wanted was helping artists get on the platform and figure stuff out. Dan Levitt:So, around that time, again, I always believed in YouTube. I was doing it for myself. And then obviously Justin Bieber broke. And I'm looking on YouTube and I'm seeing these kids who are doing mid-tempo acoustic ballads, because that's all they can do, because that's what you do when you start. Dan Levitt:But they were doing covers and building an audience. And I was like, "The originals aren't that good. And I know all these amazing songwriters and producers that right now getting cuts in a major label system, because it's a fixed game, because the heads of the A&R start separate publishing divisions. And those people get the singles." Dan Levitt:So, I was like, "What if I actually brought some artist development into this YouTuber space where these people have done the hardest part. They've built an audience," right? There was one day on Twitter, the YouTube Creators account on Twitter posted that they were having an event at ... This is before the YouTube Space ... at YouTube's offices where they were talking about what makes a video successful on YouTube. I said, "That'll probably be good for me to know." Dan Levitt:I went and Sarah from Big Frame, who we both know well, was on the panel. She was talking about how she started a business and she was managing YouTubers. I was surprised that this was a thing, that there was enough of a business for there to be managers. Dan Levitt:Not only that, really smart ... Sarah is really impressive. I was like, "Wow, this is wild. I had no idea this kind of scene was happening." And then someone else actually asked about music. "What should the labels do?" And she was like, "Oh, the labels have no idea what they're doing at all." Dan Levitt:And then I went up to Sarah afterwards. I was, "Oh, I work for Disney Music." She's like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." I was like, "Oh, no, you have no idea how right you are." Actually, for an anecdote about how truly out of touch, in my experience, they were ... Dan Levitt:So again, through my relationships, I was one of the first 500 in the US to have Spotify. The Spotify had their agreement. They had a few test accounts for people in the industry to get to try it. I had one. I went to the head ... maybe the number two at Disney Music. Dan Levitt:And I was like, "Hey, I got this cool thing, Spotify. Have you seen it? Have you tried it? Do you want an account?" He was like, "Oh yeah, I'm not worried about that. I don't need one." It was so clear to me this was the future and they couldn't be bothered. Dan Levitt:Even, again, I'm still kind of green, right? But I saw that, hey, by the way, when they did the Spotify deal, Universal was distributing Disney, right? Universal got equity. Warner got Equity. Sony got equity. Disney didn't get equity but Universal leveraged the market share for distributing Disney for equity in Spotify. And I asked them, "Why did you do that?" I'm a fucking coordinator and you don't have- Chris Erwin:You're seeing where the industry is headed. And the vision at the top of Disney, or particularly for the Disney Music division, they just don't get it. So, you're like, "They're not going to get it." At your level, you're not going to be able to influence them. Chris Erwin:So, you're saying, again, "I got to make a move. I got to get out of here. The future is changing and I want to be a part of it." Dan Levitt:I think the big thing was, I saw what happened in podcasts. I didn't have to but I chose the safer Disney route, right? Because I needed a gig. I needed to pay the bills. But I made a promise to myself. Every day, I saw someone else doing what I wanted to do. They were the AbsolutePunks of the world, or there were other people who turned the music blog into an A&R career, or leveraged it in other ways with all these podcasts blowing up. ** Dan Levitt:And I promised myself, I was like, "I'm good at seeing gaps in the marketplace and where could you go in it. I made a promise. The next time I see it, I'm fucking going for it." Chris Erwin:I love that. Dan Levitt:That's why, when I met Sarah and I saw ... I was like, "This YouTube thing is fucking next. No one in the music industry realizes it. Let me get in. At worst ... " After that conversation with Sarah ... The follow-up week, we had lunch somewhere. Dan Levitt:And after that conversation, I was like, "Sarah, hire me." She was like, "I can't now but we're doing raise soon. Let's stay in touch." Then afterwards, I was like, "This is fucking it. I fucking know it. I need to get in here no matter what." So, I started being very aggressive. Chris Erwin:This is probably, thinking in a Big Frame timeline, the company was founded in, I think, the second half of 2011. And they officially raised funding from the Google Original Channels program and a seed round, I think, in early 2012. And you come in the second half of 2012. But yeah, Sarah's talking about they had to get funding lined up. I jointed Big Frame, I think, in July of 2012. Dan Levitt:But at this point, after I had lunch with Sarah, I'm like, "Okay, this is it. I need to get into this space," right? So, at the time, there were three companies, right? There was Maker, there was Big Frame, and Full Swing. Those were the three big ones, right? Dan Levitt:When I stepped back, I looked. At the time, Maker was far bigger and the hot company at that point, right? The one that had the most buzz. The one that had the most resources and stuff. So, I decide that I want to ... Sarah's great but let me see if I could get a job at Maker. Dan Levitt:I have a meeting with whoever's running their music dept. And this guy, he was cool. He was okay but did not have the level of sophistication or music knowledge that I had, right? And I think, especially, it's worth considering, at this point, the space is so new, there's no one with Sony and Disney A&R. The level of traditional level of music in the space at all. But I decide I'm going to go for it. Dan Levitt:I meet with him. It's a decent interview. And then I decide I really want to go out of my way to show them that I want this, right? So, at the time, Maker had 100 employees. So, the next day, I send over 100 Krispy Kreme doughnuts to the Maker office with a note, "Let's make sweet music together." Chris Erwin:How did that touch work out for you? Dan Levitt:I got a second interview. Literally, people in Maker are Tweeting about it, right? And I thought, "Look, at worst, it'll be memorable and maybe they'll think about me in the future. And at best, if I get the gig, everyone's going to like me from day one, because I'm the doughnut guy." Dan Levitt:Again, I'm real fucking desperate to get out of Disney at this point. I see the writing on the way, especially, one thing to mention is that at this time, we're talking 2012, the publishing division had merged with the record labels. And essentially, the head of one of the record labels was now the new music group boss. Dan Levitt:I was at Sony after the Sony BMG merger and I saw people getting picked off one by one. And I saw the same thing happening at publishing. I said, "This was a merger, the record side won, and the publishing people are going to go one by one." As soon as I saw the first domino fall, I was fucking on it. So, I definitely feel like there's an ax going over my head slowly descending. Chris Erwin:Yeah, so the timeline is compressing. You got to make moves. Okay, so after Disney, do you then apply to Big Frame? What happens next? Dan Levitt:Yeah, eventually, I end up ... I apply to Big Frame. I meet you. Chris Erwin:You said that you sent a video as part of your application, right? Dan Levitt:Right. Right. There was a job. I think, after Google acquired Next New NOW, they had a strategist role that I applied for that I didn't get. But I knew that, if you looked at my resume, you would see traditional media. I really wanted them to understand that I got digital culture. Dan Levitt:So, I made a video in addition to my resume, a fun video that played on the memes or the trends on YouTube at the time. The video was like, "Hey, I'm a big fan of YouTube. It's not just people doing the cinnamon challenge," and then it cut to me doing that, "or getting hurt," Then to me getting hit by 20 dodge balls from different angles. Chris Erwin:I actually think I vaguely start to remember this now. Dan Levitt:Yeah. Chris Erwin:Oh my God. Dan Levitt:I just knew that, especially having applied for so many gigs at traditional companies and not getting my resume seen, I wanted to make sure that in the future when I applied for a job, I was being extra. I was really going out of my way to show that I was serious about it. And also, especially with digital, that I got it the culture. That I got the space. Dan Levitt:That I'm not some stuffy guy. I really wanted to show that I was a believer in the space and to differentiate myself. Sarah actually told me after I was hired that the video did ease some of her concerns that it was going to be a more stealthy music guy, because especially at that time, the music industry and the MCNs, it was really contentious, right? Dan Levitt:It was Sony and some of the publishers having seen Myspace grow, and build, and get a huge valuation. It was very much a new emerging trend the music industry sees as a threat. And that dates back to sheet music but that's a separate tangent. Chris Erwin:Well, and to be clear, at least from my vantage point, I don't think there was any worry that you were going to be a traditional stuffy music guy, because I remember, I think, this is me and Jason Ziemianski were working on building out the different content verticals for Big Frame. Dan Levitt:Which was so smart to do. Chris Erwin:Yeah, so smart. So, we had Wonderly. We had Forefront. We also had a music vertical. We had an LGBTQ vertical and maybe one or two more. So yeah, we're thinking about music. I remember I'm in the back room. This is when we were on the Sunset Boulevard office, the old National Lampoon building. Chris Erwin:I mean, you come in for an interview and there was a window between the back room and the front. Jason pointing at you and he's like, "That's who you're going to interview. That's Dan." I remember looking at you and I had never seen anyone that looked like you. You were in a shiny silver suit. So, one thing that I thought- Dan Levitt:Yeah, the shiny suits. The famous shiny suit. Chris Erwin:Yeah. One, I thought it was weird because I was like, "Okay, this is digital video. People were a bit more casual. Jeans and T-shirts. He's in a suit. That's kind of weird. But then second, it wasn't just a normal suit. It was just something I'd never seen before." Chris Erwin:And I was like, "All right, this guy's a character." And from where I came from, I was just like ... I'm from traditional East Coast finance. So, I was started to discount you in my head, but also realizing I'm biased. I'm like, "Maybe this is the people that we want. I've never encountered someone like this but maybe this is the thinking and the pedigree that we want." Chris Erwin:So, then I remember sitting with you on the couches in the front. And you're mile-a-minute telling me your story and I'm drinking from a fire hose. I remember peppering you with questions. I don't even know what they were. But fast forward, we end up liking you and we hire you. Chris Erwin:All right, we hire you at Big Frame and this is in October 2012. What do you remember from those early days? What are you working on? Dan Levitt:I just remember being so excited, man. Sarah and you guys believing in me especially. Again, I'm pretty good at knowing where things were going. And just you guys just, "Hey, great. Music is the big thing on YouTube. Dan, figure it out. Figure out the opportunity." Dan Levitt:The belief in me was so amazing. Also, I'm coming from working at four years at Disney where, at least with my direct supervisors, I didn't feel like I was being treated as an adult. Everything was micromanaged. I was essentially chained to my desk. Dan Levitt:And moving into a role where it just felt like anything was possible. I remember getting there and there was really next to no musicians signed at all, right? I think you guys hadn't signed them because you didn't know what to do with them. There were a handful. Dan Levitt:And then I was like, "Hey, I have this idea for a music show." I knew that I would need to get a good song out of each of the talent that we'd had. So, I was like, "Hey, I know all these amazing songwriters and producers who know YouTube is next or I'm telling them. They're excited that I'm making this leap." Dan Levitt:And they're like, "Hey, YouTube's a thing. What should we do?" So, I just remember Sarah and I and you talking about this show idea. And then a week later, we had money from YouTube to do it. So, it was the biggest mind fuck because my entire career, I heard, "No." Literally, my 20s was hearing the word no. Dan Levitt:And literally, I can honestly say in the first month at Big Frame, I did more than in my 10 years at traditional. It was that quick. And I've really only heard, for the most part, heard, "Yes," ever since. But you can do so much more in the space. There aren't the same gatekeepers at Disney. If you try something new and it doesn't work, you lose your job. Chris Erwin:This flip a switch where you're like, "Okay, within the first month at Big Frame, I'm hearing, 'Yes,' and money is behind it"? So, do you start thinking, "Oh, if I'm a go-getter, there's a lot more I can do here"? Dan Levitt:I don't know that it was even that cognizant. It was more that I didn't really know which direction to go in. So, I was like, "Okay, there's a lack of artist development." One, that show ended up taking a lot more time. Chris Erwin:And you did that with Dave Days, right? Dan Levitt:Yeah. Chris Erwin:Called, the Writing Room. Dan Levitt:It's still up on YouTube, I think. It was great and we were all really happy with the songs and the shows, and got into artist development. And then while I was there, I realized, "Hey, before I go out and start signing people, I need to understand how YouTube works, especially in music where SEO is so important," because at the time, it was very much cover songs. Dan Levitt:And some of the biggest creators on the platform were doing cover songs, right? So, I needed to know how SEO worked. There was someone who was working at YouTube who reverse engineered the algorithm, and had done all this A/B testing to figure out how to grow channels. Dan Levitt:It was on the audience-development side, and that was MatPat. He had his channel, which maybe, I think, was a couple hundred thousand subscribers. But I didn't care. No one really cared much or paid much mind about his own channel. Dan Levitt:But he and I very quickly hit it off, because at that time, a lot of the managers, more so than other MCNs ... And the reason why I went with Big Frame, because I did get offers from all three, was, you guys wanted to be more high touch with a smaller roster, right? Dan Levitt:So, at that time, you guys actually were having some of the top talent on the platform sit down with MatPat, or just Mat at that time, who would basically tell them, "Hey, here's what you should be doing," and they wouldn't listen to him. But he was doing those one by one. Chris Erwin:And just to be clear, Matthew Patrick, who's now a huge YouTuber that Dan manages, he was an employee at Big Frame early days. Dan Levitt:He was a co-worker. Now he has maybe just under or close to 30 million across 4 channels, and is just one of the top channels on the platform, especially who's been able to do it for a decade. And has, probably, one of the most challenging formats where every video takes at least 100 or 200 hours in terms of scripting and post. Dan Levitt:It shouldn't work, but through pure determination and really thoughtful approach, it has worked. Anyways, he's working there. And quickly, we hit it off because, instead of just dropping the talent and him saying the same things over to talent that don't listen, I was like, "Hey, tell me. Do a knowledge transfer to me. I want to know this stuff, so that I can tell all my clients and be respectful of his time, and also learn. Dan Levitt:"I'm curious for myself. I want to know, how does SEO work and what are things I can do to grow my clients, so that we're providing value. And then once I know that, cool, let me go out and let me try sign some of the best and brightest." Dan Levitt:I thought that it would take me a while before I permeated, at least the music scene, on YouTube. By two or three months, based off of the work I was doing with one or two artists, I guess I should've went, "They all know each other. They would all collab. They all talk to each other." Dan Levitt:So, in a very short amount of time, I created a great name for myself as someone who's ... especially at that time, with the exception of Big Frame, it was scale, scale, scale. Just sign channels, get them into CMS, Comscore, Comscore. That was not Big Frame's approach. Dan Levitt:So, Big Frame really had a great reputation and I wanted to help further perpetuate that. So, not only was I helping people grow their channels, but I was setting them up with songwriters and producers, helping them figure out the different revenue streams. Dan Levitt:One of the challenges at that time was, the contracts that we had were more, at that time, standard MCN deals that only participated in ad revenue. And for most creators, that's fine, right? Because the ancillary revenues, the merch touring, and brand deals, and stuff were't there, or they were just starting. Dan Levitt:On the music side, especially then when it was confrontational with the publishers, the ad revenue is shared. So, the CPMs and the ad revenue was a lot lower take-home for the artist, and in turn, Big Frame. However, they were making significantly more and a lot more on downloads and streaming. Dan Levitt:So, I noticed, "Hey, I'm giving you advice and I'm helping you grow your channel. But we're only participating in, essentially, the least profitable revenue stream." So, I recognized, "Hey, at least in music, if we're going to be ... " And probably more broadly because we saw at time peak, and some other platforms come up that weren't YouTube. Dan Levitt:Some of the talent was trying to do stuff on their own and sort of getting exploited. And I realized, and I went to Sarah and you and said, "Hey, we might want to think about having our contracts be more robust and 360 if we're going to have this more boutique roster." Chris Erwin:Oh, I remember those conversations where we had, I think, a very short, minimal contract. Only participated in AdSense off of YouTube. Then a lot of push from the team saying, "Hey, we're doing all this work. We're impacting the 360 business of this talent. One, the company needs to get paid for it." Chris Erwin:And also, because you guys were thinking about, as talent managers, "How do you participate? What's your incentive?" Look, contracts is a whole separate thing, because I remember then the contract became like 12 pages. And then people were saying, "This is crazy. You got to make it simpler. No one's going to sign." But that's another tangent. Chris Erwin:Anyway, okay, you identify this. We start to rejigger the business. And yeah, you start building out our music vertical. Dan Levitt:It was going really well. I mean, we were getting the best talent. We just weren't monetizing the way that we wanted yet. And I was waiting on these management contracts to come in, so that we could get that ... Again, that process took longer. We were basically building ... Dan Levitt:We would've had all the best ones, right? Some of them had deals that they signed before that were, "Hey, as soon as this term ends, I'm going to join." Chris Erwin:So, I think this speaks to some mutual challenges, right? And frustration where we're trying to sort out the contracts. We're trying to sort out the business model. We're realizing at Big Frame, the music vertical is not directly making a lot of money relative to the cost that we're putting into it. Chris Erwin:Also, this is a point where I think there is some headwinds facing the MCN industry. We were having some challenges raising the needed capital and floating working capital. So, we had to make some changes. There was a discussion around, "Okay, probably going to have to shut down the music vertical, and we're going to have to let Dan go." Chris Erwin:This is something you and I talk about for the past 10 years. I remember being in the room when that conversation happens, because it was between me, and you, and Jason, I believe. Dan Levitt:I was really the first person let go. It was a growth stage. And then I was probably the first casualty, right? And to your credit, I was not surprised, because maybe a month or so before, you were like, "Hey, Dan, have you actually looked at some of the numbers in terms of what we're paying you and what you're bringing in?" Dan Levitt:Again, that seems blatantly obvious that I should've been but I wasn't. I came from a role that was very administrative and I kept doing what I knew. It wasn't clear to me that, "Oh, I'm actually responsible for ... I should be ... for my own P&L within this larger entity." Chris Erwin:In reflecting on that moment, and I don't actually think I've ever shared this before, but I think there's some realizations where, one, I think I was learning a lot about the digital entertainment industry, right? I had a very traditional background MBA. And there was a lot that I ... Chris Erwin:I knew about business and I knew that revenue had to be more than cost to get the profit. But I think I didn't understand the nuances of how this industry worked, of how you recruit talent, how you invest in a team, and figuring out the right business model. And I think listening to our talent managers, like yourself, could've been something I did with more focus and intent. Chris Erwin:But I think it was a mutual value exchange. We're all learning and I think this helped set up a lot of talent managers for success of thinking about running a sustainable business. Thinking about top line versus bottom line. And I know that there was some conversations where, yeah, I was giving clinics to you and some of the other members of the team like, "Let's sketch out some numbers and see what works here. Chris Erwin:"And it's not working. How do we get there?" And I feel that you've taken that to your new business, which has obviously been paid off in spades for you. Dan Levitt:I think me and the other talent managers there, we kind of went in wide-eyed where we knew the opportunity, and we knew where we saw things were going. But I don't think any of us had run this kind of a business like that or thought through that kind of stuff. Dan Levitt:It's just like you're trying to build the plane while you fly it. The other thing is, you obviously know this and you hear some of the stories from me and other, it's really hard dealing with talent. It's really hard dealing with talent. Especially then, one thing that I don't hear discussed as much, and I think for someone like me, who worked with traditional talent for a while, the digital talent's different, right? Dan Levitt:So, for me, working in music as an A&R guy, if I meet an artist or a musician, at least back then, they've heard, "No," a million times, right? And they understand the value of a team. On the YouTuber side, especially back then, especially early on, but it's still the same now, especially with the new breed of creators who are really fucking savvy, a lot of them don't understand the value of a team. Dan Levitt:They've hit a time when everyone's catering to them, especially the OG YouTubers who got in when you could just have deceptive thumbnails and stuff. They were not as receptive to advice that, potentially, they should've been. So, in addition to figure out how to make a business model of this thing as it's emerging, and especially, music is a lot harder in brand deals than beauty and other verticals, it was challenging. Dan Levitt:And it's compounded by, the job in working with talent is essentially to keep the unaccountable accountable. Chris Erwin:Look, I feel for you guys because I think you're working really hard dating over the past decade to figure out the business models that work for this new talent. And I think that's still happening together. And different from traditional managers, this feeling of you're always on. Chris Erwin:So, the internet doesn't shut off. It's 24/7. And you could be dealing with a brand deal that goes awry on a different timezone. And you're getting up at 4:00 AM. Or there's a YouTube channel take down that's impacting a brand deal, or a video that's meaningful to talent. And that happens at midnight, you got to be on it with a plan, a solution, and a call into the platform. That's unique. Chris Erwin:And look, that's a separate podcast to talk about all those stories. I think the collective Big Frame managers will write a book. But I will the challenge that you guys face in managing digital talent. For me, having run the talent organization and overseeing the talent managers, that's also hard because at the top, we tried to bear the burden of that stress, and give you guys the tools, and empower you. Chris Erwin:You guys demanded a lot because your talent demanded a lot. And it was admittedly hard. But I think it was a beautiful journey to go through together and we learned a lot. Dan Levitt:Yeah, I can't believe it was only eight months. I was only there eight months, which is surprising. But man, in that eight months, the professional development that I had was so far beyond. I remember saying to Steve Raymond, who was the CEO of Big Frame at the time, I remember telling him, "I'll never work for a big company again if I can avoid it." Dan Levitt:I like the startup culture. I like the fact that we're making it up, and we get to try new things, and make mistakes and do stuff. So far, I haven't had to. Chris Erwin:Before we go on and we talk about your transition to Long Haul, I think we'd be remiss if we just didn't tell one story about the upstairs rap battle. This still gets me to this day because you ended up as the winner. It pains me to this day. So, tell the listeners a quick context for our rap battle. Dan Levitt:Yeah, I don't know the origin of it. I think there might have been two. I don't know. I don't remember how it started but I think we were just ... We throw friendly jabs back and forth. And somehow, it cultivated in, "Hey, we're going to do a rap battle." Dan Levitt:I remember spending half the day writing out my stuff. I just remember the whole team was there and they were filming it. We got to find a video of it somewhere. But yeah, there was a rap battle and I was victorious. I know I went at you for ... Dan Levitt:I remember one line. You had a Ford that was giving you a bunch of challenges because all you could afford is a piece-of-shit Ford. That line really, while not being the most creative, really hit with the audience. Chris Erwin:Yeah. I think, in rap battles, you just get a sense, because like you said, everyone was watching. They were filming. Crowd's reacting. And if you track the energy, you just know who's winning. And I remember at the end with that line, the crowd just was like ... Chris Erwin:It just felt like, "All right, Dan has one this." I think we were kind of even throughout throwing these different jabs. I remember working on my script for a couple weeks. I was frustrated because I was like, "That line is ... That's not a special one. He just said Ford and afford in the same sentence." But it didn't matter. It was over. So, look, massive credit for you. Dan Levitt:You're going against a music industry professional. There were no ghostwriters but it's to be expected. So, if Chaz or anybody else wants to come for the throne, they know where I'm at. Chris Erwin:So, Dan, okay, after this let-go moment, what are you thinking about? What's next for you? Dan Levitt:When I took the gig, I knew it was going to be a roller coaster. I knew it was riskier, right? But again, I felt, "At worse, if it doesn't work out, at least I will presumably have positioned myself in the music industry as the YouTube guy. And because I know YouTube is going to be a big thing, I should be okay. I'll figure something out." Dan Levitt:And that's exactly what happened where, as soon as I let go, I hit up all my people. In that eight months, people did start to notice. Some people. I was very fortunate that, within the first month, I got two gigs doing consulting for two different startups that wanted to work with digital creators, particularly musicians, that actually paid more for a lot less work. So, I sailed up for the first time. Dan Levitt:Now, it's like, "Okay. Now, I'm actually making more money than I was at Big Frame and I have way more free time. So, what could I be doing?" And then around that time is when MatPat crossed a million subscribers. We hadn't talked in a while but there was that mutual respect, right? He's noticed that I was doing more for talent and being thoughtful. Chris

Episode Chapters:0:00 How to make money on YouTube5:00 How to get more confidence7:20 Do poor performing videos affect a channel?10:20 What is a good average view duration?12:05 Is there a turning point where subs explode?13:40 What is an MCN?17:40 Is an Instagram or YouTube audience better?Creator Generation features top YouTube creators and video experts sharing their tips, insights and stories for working on the world's biggest video platform.Join the Creator Generation community: https://community.creatorgeneration.com---- Connect Via ----Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thecreatorgeneration/Twitter: https://twitter.com/creator_genWebsite: : https://www.creatorgeneration.comiTunes Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/creator-generation/id1467880508IPhone App: https://apps.apple.com/au/app/creator-generation/id1454614578Android App: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ourkin.ytcreators#youtubechannel #growyourchannel #youtubeQandA #QandAroulette #makegreatcontent #youtuber #creatorgeneration #podcast

Anthony Pompliano, an investor and podcaster, launched Bitcoin Pizza, a new "decentralized" pizza brand. It's yet another example of a creator or media brand launching a direct-to-consumer food & beverage brand. In this episode we explain why food media overindexes on commerce success, how these capital-lite business initiatives are being powered by ghost kitchens and delivery apps, and what we've learned talking about food initiatives with traditional and digital publishers.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteEmail us: rounduppod@wearerockwater.com---EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:Chris Erwin:So Andrew, one of the things that we have not yet covered on this microcast, but that we do a lot of writing and work on at RockWater, is the explosion of the food, media and commerce space.Andrew Cohen:Yes. Very excited to dive into this one.Chris Erwin:And there was a recent deal that was announced that I think is a great jumping off point. So over the past couple of weeks, Anthony Pompliano, an investor and podcaster, and who has a large online following, he launched Bitcoin Pizza, which has been described as a new decentralized direct to consumer pizza brand. So he launched it in 10 cities and the launch was enabled by Popchew, which is a company that helps launch food brands for different partners. And of note, we know the Popchew team, we think very highly of them. And we think this is a really cool market data point for some of their upcoming growth. But I think Andrew, what this sparks, is that this is one of many similar food meeting commerce deals that we've seen over the past, call it year and a half, right?Andrew Cohen:Yeah. We are always advocating for our media clients that they diversify revenues by expanding into D2C commerce. And as we're tracking the market, we kept noticing that some of the biggest commerce successes we were seeing were happening in the F&B space when it came to media brand launches. And if you just look this week, the TikTok influencers of the Sway House just launched their own limited edition cereal with Magic Spoon. Dwayne, The Rock Johnson's personal tequila brand is on track to sell 300,000 cases in its first year. MeatEater launched a branded whiskey that sold out in its first week. And we're also seeing this, not just with CPG products, but also with what we're calling F&B branded experiences. So everyone knows about the MrBeast ghost kitchen activation, which launched 300 locations across the country and had a projected revenue potential of 300 million.Chris Erwin:Hold on, wait, did you say 300 million?Andrew Cohen:I said 300 million. Yeah, it's crazy.Chris Erwin:Okay. Wow.Andrew Cohen:Also, other virtual restaurant chain activations food, Barstool Sports, launching a one bite pizza delivery app, which processed over a hundred thousand transactions in its first month, the LA Dodgers partnered with Postmates and a specialized ghost kitchen startup called the Home Team kitchen to deliver their stadium food to fans across LA during their games and demand for this service doubled their initial projections. And even in brick and mortar, we've seen the success of branded F&B experiences, albeit pre-COVID, but Time Out was incredibly successful with Time Out Food Markets, which in 2019 generated 17 million in net revenue and processed a total transaction volume of 56 million. So Bitcoin Pizza comes as no surprise on the tail of all these other success stories that we've seen. We've been tracking a part of them, definitely plan on putting together a more robust watch list. So, stay tuned for that in the coming weeks.Chris Erwin:All right, Andrew. So that's a lot to bite off there and I know there's a lot more on the list, but yeah, let's talk about like why food and beverage over index's on commerce for these digital media brands and creators? So look, I think back to when I first joined the digital video revolution and I was early at some of these YouTube, MCNs like Big Frame and Awesomeness, we were all aligning around different verticals, whether it was creating content around beauty or teens or gaming. And then we saw companies like Tastemade, which had built content verticals around food and just seeing how quickly that they grew their audience and viewership was incredible. And then noticing that a lot of the different verticalized content brands that started creating lifestyle and food and beverage adjacent content, that the viewership around those sub-brands was growing like crazy.Chris Erwin:And so I think we've seen the same, if you look at new platforms like Instagram and TikTok and others, content around food and beverage, just increasingly dominates the charts. And so some of the driving factors that I think that we've observed is that, one, food is universal. Everyone eats, it's a cultural unifier. It brings people together. And there's much that happens around the food and beverage experience, right? Brings people together. There's lots of different products. There's the cookware, there's the eating ware, there's different ingredients. There's the preparation, there's the going out to restaurants, there's the experience at home. So, there's a lot. We started seeing this and then I think there was a couple of questions that we started raising both to ourselves and that we were bringing to clients. And I know you have a point of view here Andrew?Andrew Cohen:It's definitely become more of a lifestyle accessory. It used to be the only people with Food and Bev commerce empires were professional chefs like Emeril Lagasse. Now you have someone like Dave Portnoy can be the biggest influencer in the pizza space, even though I doubt he's ever cooked a pizza before, but it's really more about influence now. But what we're seeing is, a lot of the media companies and creators who are holding this influence and who are driving discovery and sales of these products are leaving a ton of money on the table. All of these activations that we're seeing for the most part are licensing deals where the IP owner, the brand owner, the creative talent themselves are getting only about 3 to 7% of the total revenues from these products that are so successful, because of their promotion, their likeness, their personality.Andrew Cohen:And so we started wondering why? We started to think licensing and partnerships is a great way to kind of dip your toe in the water before diving in head first, just to kind of test the potency of your brand and move product at a specific space. But once we've seen success stories, we were expecting to see a lot more O&O owned and operated launches in this space, where the brands and creators will be able to retain a lot more of that upside, but we just weren't seeing it.Chris Erwin:I think that's right Andrew, the two things that we saw just to properly recap is, we were asking ourselves, why are not more media brands, our clients, and other prospects out there, why are they not launching more food and beverage businesses? And then two, like you said, why are they not going from the licensing model, taking a minority share of revenues to thinking about doing JVs with operating partners, or going owned and operated, right? More capital up front for more higher upside. So we had a partner that we started working with, which is one of the world's foremost food and beverage innovators and formulators.Chris Erwin:And so we started going out to our media clients and saying, "Okay, like, Hey, we have a partner, let's bring some ideas to market. This is what we're thinking." But we started hearing some really serious hesitations. They're like, "Okay, Chris and team, we're excited about this idea. We want to diversify revenues. We see where the market's headed, but here's the challenge. It's like, we're not in the manufacturing business. We don't know how to create a different formula and then how to find an operating partner at scale. But then we're concerned about inventory management. We're concerned about scale distribution. We also believe that to really drive the proper brand awareness for this launch and to make it work that we need brick and mortar placement, we need shelf placement. And we need to think about how do you do in-store marketing?"Chris Erwin:And so, as we started to hear these concerns and increasingly that, this is a very different muscle that their team would have to flex versus what they've typically done, which is create content and then build audiences around that content. So there was concern about how much capital that have to be put up front and then how to hire and scale an organization, recruit the right executives, right? A lot of new learnings to beat that were here.Chris Erwin:This was very good feedback. And as we started thinking about solutions, we then started reading about the emergence of ghost kitchens in the market, which felt almost like the perfect hybrid, where you have ghost kitchens and delivery, where you're piggybacking off the delivery apps, where it's like, "Okay, you're starting to solve all these problems. They're capital light and efficient, but you still have more upside from a revenue and profit point of view. It's like, all right, it's just like the perfect middle porridge."Chris Erwin:To break that down with ghost kitchens, you already have remnant kitchen inventory, or these kitchens that can do all of the food manufacturing. If you're starting with a small alpha launch, maybe you're using only five locations. And then as you go to nationwide or international, you're working with hundreds or thousands of different partners, right? So easy to scale, low capital. You're not on the hook for managing inventory. And then for the distribution point, you're piggybacking off of Uber Eats, DoorDash, Grubhub, or Postmates, that's already doing the last mile delivery. You don't have to figure that out yourself or build out that infrastructure, which is really expensive. This got us excited, right?Andrew Cohen:Oh, for sure. I mean, it makes perfect sense. And there's so many ways you can do it. You can look at it as a revenue play. I mean, just look at Mr Beast, $300 million revenue potential. I would certainly say that's a revenue play, you could also look at it as marketing, I'm sure for the Dodgers example, that it's not exactly moving the bottom line for the Dodger's organization, but it's a great way to kind of eventize the at-home experience during the broadcast to get people get around the couch, order a Dodger dog, lean in to that broadcast experience. So it can really function as marketing as well. I'm excited to see how other brands and creators can activate ghost kitchens, kind of both ways.Chris Erwin:I really like the point about you can eventize around the experience and you can thoughtfully extend your brand, all the different places where your consumers or your fans are. Right, that's really key. So look, we think that there's a duality approach here where you can drive meaningful top line revenue and bottom line profit, but just the improved marketing, which then bolsters your overall media business is really powerful. Now, look, there are challenges. This is not perfect. And a lot of people have to figure out things like, how do you kind of grow your menu over time? How do you maintain quality control? Where if you have a lot of different ghost kitchens and different partners that are creating the same product, how can you have product consistency throughout? But in terms of just getting something off the ground launch and running and learning from it, great way to go.Chris Erwin:A big question that we think about, and we'll close this out. We've seen the emergence of companies like Teespring and others, where if you want to launch a T-shirt line or a mug or any different types of branded product, where you can take your brand logo and likeness and slap it onto a physical, tangible good, there's a lot of solutions that are out there. But who's going to launch the new turnkey solution to do this for food. It seems that Popchew who we talked about enabling the Pompliano business is definitely one of them. And I think that we're going to see more going forward. We see it as a huge opportunity, but any other big questions that you think of Andrew?Andrew Cohen:No, I think that's a good one. I'm going to respect the 30 minutes or less promise and say until next time.Chris Erwin:All right. Later Andrew.Andrew Cohen:Later.

In this episode we welcome Phil Ranta! He is a pioneer of the digital media revolution, working as a pre-YouTube professional web video producer in 2005, video content app creator before the smartphone revolution in 2007, an early exec in the MCN boom with two successful exits, and as the Head Gaming Creators at Facebook and Mobcrush, driving the live streaming and the creator-driven media paradigm shift. Previously, Phil was the Head of Gaming Creators, North America at Facebook, and the Head of Creators at Mobcrush. In both roles, the departments saw significant growth working with top game streaming talent including Ronda Rousey, Disguised Toast, Corinna Kopf, Shroud, and Nate Hill, to name a few.He was the COO of Studio71, one of the world's largest MCNs, growing the network from 1 billion to over 8 billion monthly views in 3 years, with over 1,000 creators.Before S71, Phil joined Fullscreen as the Head of Channel Partnerships, completing his tenure as the VP of Networks. He grew the network to the largest MCN in the world (on comScore) in less than 1 year. He was the recipient of Fullscreen's first "Founders Award" for his role in building the industry-leading company.Currently, as COO of Wormhole Labs, he is helping to build a live simulation of the real world, generated by the power of the crowd, where users navigate the world as avatars to 'Wormhole', or teleport, to locations around the world to meet, chat, shop, and play.Together we cover: - The future post-feed social environments and how Wormhole is building a thriving social community in the metaverse.- Finding the right niche for top streamers, esports, and lifestyle influencers that enables them to develop hyper-premium experiences and transition from creator to business.- What it takes to unlock serious growth, build trust, and the importance of always keeping a personal touch.- Actionable advice for creators on developing their own brand and growing scalable Youtube communities.- Phil's take on finding the right community-oriented streamers that want to take it to the next level.- Deep dive into how they managed to bring together and grow Randa Rowsie's very diverse communities while staying true to her personality.- Core elements of community growth.- The importance of knowing your brand and understanding it's not what your brand wants to be, but what your brand is.- Common pitfalls in building brands.- Growth hacking vs fandom growth.- Why producing valuable content can galvanize communities at scale, while only obsessing about the metrics is not really sustainable.- Phil's choice of brands that are doing a great job at digital strategies. Our GDPR privacy policy was updated on August 8, 2022. Visit acast.com/privacy for more information.

They are a bit of a dying breed nowadays, but there are still some MCNs or "Multi-Channel Networks" out there looking for YouTubers to bring into their ranks. What are MCNs and why is it important to be talking about them now? As former members and employees of an MCN, we discuss the details that every creator should know.

Christian Baesler is the President of Complex Networks. Christian is a young media savant, who in his 20's had more media experience than most executives have in a lifetime. We discuss his humble German childhood, how he launched Bauer Media's digital business at just 21 years old, being a touring DJ, and Complex's international growth plans for 2021.  Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com--EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews, entrepreneurs and leaders. Christian Baesler:I was there first as the student, still at my program. And I basically took the initiative to say, "Well, you say there is no opportunity here, why don't I just build a case study for you?" And so I programmed a website, plugged in the programmatic ads. And at first, I was also creating some of the content myself. There was, like, celebrity news on In Touch's websites. Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Christian Baesler, the president of Complex Networks. Christian is a young media savant who in his 20s had more media experience than most executives have in a lifetime. And he's a “get your hands dirty”-type builder. Like when he was tapped to be the head of digital at Bauer Media, right out of college and programmed the company's first website himself. And today Christian runs day to day operations of one of the world's largest digital companies, which includes hot sauces, a sneaker marketplace, live and virtual events, and so much more. And oh yeah, he even finds time to be a performing DJ throughout Europe. So yes, Christian is a rockstar, but as you'll quickly learn is also extremely humble. I'm pumped to tell you his story. All right, let's get into it. So Christian, let's jump back a few years. Let's start with where you grew up in Germany. Christian Baesler:Yeah. Where I grew up in Germany is, even for Germany I would say, not as popular place or as well regarded place, at least back then when I grew up there, it was heart of the GDR, the German democratic Republic or Eastern Germany, that only merged with Western Germany in 1990. And fun fact, I was actually born on the day that the German Wall fell. So November 9, '89. So my mother's always joking that's that one might have caused the other, I don't know which one caused what, but. Chris Erwin:Yeah, the whole like causality correlation thing. Christian Baesler:Probably the Wall falling was the cause for her giving birth that day. But I grew up in that area, that in terms of the economic environment had been very depressed. And for the next 10, 20 years after was integrating into Western Germany, but still there weren't that many of the same opportunities like there was in Western Germany. And in addition to that, I grew up most of the time of my childhood in small villages of like a few 100 people. I think the biggest place I lived in was like 1,000 people and everything was very rural. You had a lot of agriculture around and you would have to go 15, 20 minutes to the next nearest town at least, or to see other friends living out of town. So it felt very small and it wasn't the most progressive place, especially with the businesses that were there. Chris Erwin:And growing up, what was your household like? What did your parents do? Were they in a similar field that you are in now or totally different? Christian Baesler:Again, they grew up both in the GDR where it was mostly working class in general, in the GDR with the kind of jobs that people had especially living in villages. After the GDR became one Germany, my father, who was a plumber, started his own company doing plumbing. And so he was entrepreneurial, which previously in the GDR, you couldn't have your own business. There was no concept of privatizing where post he started his own local company. And so my mother was for the most part, a secretary in his company. Before that's in the GDR times, she was a waitress in restaurants. And I don't think I've said that in other podcasts or interviews before, my father passed away when I was 12 of cancer and so that was definitely a big moments of just unexpected big change and also something that was definitely a very difficult, but also important experience for me looking like now? Chris Erwin:Your memories of your father, is it that he was an entrepreneur and he ran his own plumbing business from what you recollect? Christian Baesler:Yes. Chris Erwin:Interesting. A lot of people think about entrepreneurship in the US or in the modern economy as go raise a bunch of money from Silicon Valley and have a big technology startup, but entrepreneurship takes many different forms; small businesses, blue collar businesses. Growing up in small communities of like a few 100 people, did that make you very curious of, "Hey, what else is out there? What else could I get into?" Or was there a level of comfort, which is, "This feels right. I could live like this with these type of people for the rest of my life." What was an early feeling, or if there's tension in your life? Christian Baesler:It was definitely, there must be more than this village life, which was comfortable and people knew each other around the village. So that was nice that sense of community, which I think is somewhat missing today in life in general, that it was more of a feeling of togetherness rather than everyone for themselves. So that was a plus, but I somewhat got lucky in terms of the time I was born on the exposure had early on in my childhood, because that was all pretty much at the development of the internet was just growing and computers were just growing, the personal computers were growing. Christian Baesler:That plus just overall TV getting bigger really gave me a window into what's out there in the world, which if you just live on the village and you read the local newspapers or some magazines, you have no idea what other lifestyles or what other cultures are outside of that bubble. And so I was quite early fascinated with computers in general, but then more importantly the internet, which was just a huge opportunity to learn about different things that otherwise I wouldn't have any exposure to. And that really showed me that there's more outside of this world I live in that I'd like to learn or immerse myself in. Chris Erwin:I understand that you began programming at a pretty early age, I think in your teens, early teens around 13. But your first exposure to the internet and computers, was it at home where your family purchased a computer for you or there was a shared computer or was it through local library or school? Because what I'm hearing from you is there were simple means growing up, like working class people in the community. So what was that first exposure to internet and technology? Christian Baesler:Yeah. My family as you mentioned, just in general by the nature of the environment and the jobs they had, they weren't wealthy by any means. So it was definitely not something that was readily available. We didn't have any computers at home, so that was not like an environment that I could benefit from, but I did have an uncle in my family that was very much into computers at the time. He assembled his own computers; buying all the parts and assembling all of them themselves. And so that was the first time I truly had an exposure to computers. Christian Baesler:And I was very fascinated by this concept of combining different things that if you plug them in, in the right way, it turns out to be this interactive device that then you can manipulate something on a screen with. That was very fascinating. And I would say the curiosity that I developed in this to begin with was probably within computer games. Just the idea that you can play on a device and again, influence what's happening on the screen was what sparked the initial interest and curiosity and computers then allowed me to create something myself that I can interact with manipulate like the games were previously. Chris Erwin:With the internet, what were you consuming? So games was a big part of that. And then did you start developing your own games as well? Christian Baesler:I started building games at the time, but what I was more fascinated with was programming languages around the internet itself. Early on, I think the first thing I started playing with, there was no big systems like Squarespace, back then you have to do a lot of the things manual yourself. And so early on, I remember being very interested in message boards, which was like this exchange platform for a lot of the communities and subcultures that might be on Reddit or other places today. But back then message boards were huge. And oftentimes message boards also got recorded by us for how to program. Like if you were stuck figuring out how to solve a specific programming problem, you could ask someone in the message board and this kind community would just take the time and help you. Christian Baesler:And so early on, for example, I discovered phpBB, I think it was called. It was like one of those WordPress like message board platforms that someone already built and you can create your own message board. But back then you had to host, you have to have your own hosting space and server and then you could style it. And so I took something that was existing like that and figure out how to do the hosting part and then started to manipulate it. Christian Baesler:And then over time it made me more and more curious to create websites on my own, which ultimately when I was probably 13, I started doing it. I made available as a service for companies and organizations in the local village at first, but then in the area. And so I developed websites for a fee for the local companies as probably the first big income source early on. Chris Erwin:When people think about the success formula, it's the power of curiosity and wonder coupled with serendipity and the right connections, and that you had this curiosity about you and then with your uncle who also had curiosity and access to the hardware and the software and interesting computers and intention to share that, what a powerful combination that puts you on a unique path. Christian Baesler:Absolutely. Chris Erwin:So then what is that transition where, okay, you're in high school, you're working these jobs and then I think there's a transition into interest in journalism before you go to university, tell me about like right before university some of the work that you were doing. Christian Baesler:Yeah. Some of the other work I did outside of the developing the website was I developed an interest in photography as well. And I bought myself, at least for that time, quite a good, I think it was called DLSR camera, which at the time was taking the best photos you could take. Maybe these days, all you need is an iPhone but back then, that's what you needed. So I was really interested in the idea of creating something in general, either websites or things for people to consume, which also could be images like photography and text. And so after playing around with the camera, I ended up also working for companies and for weddings as a photographer at first. And so some people trust- Chris Erwin:How old were you when you're doing wedding photography? Christian Baesler:Probably 15, 16, I would say. And so that made me interested in media, which is basically also creating something that people consume around photos and texts. And there was this local newspaper, which is basically one of those weekly things that you get delivered to your house often times for free and covered by ads, so they can monetize through advertising, but it was like the local newspaper and they had a freelance position at first to basically be a local reporter. I applied for it. And for whatever reason, I don't know why now looking back, my boss there eventually gave me a shot and trusted me to be this local reporter even though I was only 16 at the time. Chris Erwin:So the youngest reporter of the paper, probably? Christian Baesler:Probably, Yeah. I mean, I didn't see anyone else there in my age at the time and I wasn't paying too much attention to who the reporters are previous to me, but I would assume so. And basically with that job, I had to go around to different events and two different things happening in the region and interview people undocumented, both with texts, like articles that I wrote, but also with the photos because the budgets were so small, you basically had to do everything yourself as a local reporter. Christian Baesler:That was a hugely transformative experience for me because outside of just exposing them more to medium previously in my childhood and early teens, I was a very shy person. I wouldn't want to talk to people that I don't know. And it was very difficult for me to make conversations and this job required me. It was part of the job description to get information out of people. And ultimately this further, the desire to find out information with people. Chris Erwin:A theme that we'll get into later is this notion of subtle or soft power, which I believe that you embody. And so I was curious to where those roots are and hearing about your early age shyness, but clearly you wanted to express yourself, but maybe just differently relative to social norms. So that was the internet expressing yourself in gaming, and programming and building websites. And then as you said this desire to create and you're creating these stories and photography at the paper, a very interesting theme that takes you to where you are today, that we'll touch on a bit more. So you're creating and expressing in unique ways and then it's time to apply to college or university. And I believe that you ended up going to Nordakademie in Hamburg. When you went to university, what did you want to get out of it? Christian Baesler:Again, coming from a difficult economic environment where my family didn't have a lot of money even going to the government university wasn't as good of an option because they couldn't support me financially to like pay rent and to have the basic income to go through that school. And so there's one other interesting concepts which might be somewhat unique to Germany and it's called an integrated study where after high school, you apply at a company that is partnering with specific private universities and private for the reason that they basically create specific programs with these companies to give you a bachelor degree, you get a salary and you work half the time at the company. So it's a 10 weeks at the partner school, which in my case was Nordakademie. And then you had two to three months at the company where you're basically a trainee rotating them through different parts of the organization from marketing, to sales, to finance, they pay your tuition and pay your salary. Christian Baesler:And so that to me, as a concept integrated study in general was something that seemed like a solution. Like I could basically get an income and study at the same time. And so I was very focused on finding a place to get an integrated study. And originally I wasn't as singularly focused on media. I applied at Diamler, the car company. I applied at Lufthansa, actually the airline to become a pilot, which was something I was fascinated by early on. So it was different paths that could be going down. Chris Erwin:Wait, let me pause you right there. You said interest in being a pilot, had you flown, where did that interest come from? Christian Baesler:It was maybe another symbol of just going places and the freedom that had represented. And so I was always fascinated just by flying and pilots and airplanes in general. And again, growing up I played quite a lot of, I think it was Microsoft Flight Simulator, which I saw they just brought back as a new version the last month, but that was like one of my favorite games. And so I was fascinated by just the art of flying. And so I was seriously considering becoming an airline pilots at the time, applying at Lufthansa. Chris Erwin:It's Lufthansa and Daimler and you end up at Bauer in their integrated study program. And so how did it feel when you got Bauer? Were you excited? Christian Baesler:The Bauer one was one of the first that I got confirmation from. So the other ones weren't as quick in the process. And so it was the first option that was available, but then also in the moment thinking through what would it mean to go to the different companies that also felt like the most exciting, because it would allow me to do more of the things that I was already doing, meaning it was in the media industry, which again, as a local reporter had already worked in as a photographer and digital media was still nascent, but the concepts to build websites to then express the content on was something that they were very focused on at the time. Christian Baesler:So it felt like the best option based on my passion so far, but also they have like 100 magazines or so in Germany and some of them were my favorite from my childhood time. So I also had this excitement about now being at the company that makes the things that I consumed when I grew up. Chris Erwin:Got it. You were busy during your university years, you were at school and you were working a part-time job, but on a pretty serious rotation program. What else did you do in between then? We're going to get into your career trajectory very soon, which clearly you started early. What were other things that you were into? Christian Baesler:During that time, as you mentioned, it wasn't like a normal study where you have a three months summer break or few courses during the day and otherwise not much to do. So the three and a half years then was probably among the most intense time of my life. Maybe for the last few years career wise were more intense, but just up until then, it was the most intense time because it was classes from 9:00 until 6:00 and it was only a 10 week semester, which we had six big exams and there was no break, you had to then go to the company and work for three more months, different departments. And so there wasn't really that normal student life where you just travel the world or you just have this time to pursue other passion projects. Christian Baesler:But the one other passion project I developed quite early as well, going back to the idea of creating something is music, where I was really fascinated by how music is created and how if arrange sounds in a certain way, it could make people feel something just by nature of how it's arranged. And so pretty early on, I, again, thanks to the internet, found out what the tools are, which at the time already were software based. It wasn't that you had to have this big physical hardware environments. So I was quite early on playing around with different softwares for music creation and went deeper and deeper into that. Chris Erwin:And did you also perform as a DJ as well? Christian Baesler:Not in that time during my studies, but afterwards where I did both on the music production side, teach myself how to create my own music, but then I also learned how to be a DJ, which has different meanings. There's like the DJ that's basically just has a playlist of prearranged things like at weddings or other things. They have their purpose and that's definitely one component, but for me it was more the how do I create this experience that shows people music that they've never heard before and it sounds like a two hour long song or track rather than a clear difference actually three to five minutes? And so then I ended up performing multiple times in Germany, which I still did pre-COVID. So I'm still doing it now, if we wouldn't be in the current situation. Chris Erwin:Another unique form of expression. And I've never seen you perform and I know that your SoundCloud handle maybe as a current mystery, I wonder onstage when you perform, is it a more subdued presence and you let the music speak for itself or do you look at that? Is there a unique release there or maybe you enter a form that's unique to your professional leadership or character? Christian Baesler:It's definitely highly therapeutic I would say, because it's a different way of expression and also communication with the audience. And again, that the music I play is not like what you would hear in charts. It's for the most part electronic music, mostly techno music which for people that aren't familiar with, it might sound like jazz sounds. For people that don't understand or don't like jazz, it's just like this random sounds that are just being played. But for the audience that does appreciate it and know it, it's this very reflective experience. Christian Baesler:And for me, I get more instant gratification and joy out of doing this for 90 minutes and seeing the audience react to the music I'm making than doubling revenues or having some other usual measurement of success that feels more indirect. Like you see numbers in spreadsheets, but you don't really know what it means what's happening on the other side. And this is a much more direct feedback loop that is much more rewarding. Chris Erwin:And to be specific, your identity, your behavior on stage, would you say it's very different from your day-to-day life or is it similar? Christian Baesler:I would say it's similar. It's very reserved. With the techno music as a category, the DJ is in the backgrounds like the audience is not even meant to realize that there is a person there doing things, which is very different to when you go to festivals and they're all on big stages and have all these big lights. So that's kind of the opposite of what the electronic music culture or the underground electronic music culture would be about. So I'm basically the shaman in the background playing music for people to be in trance. That's kind of the goal of that experience. Chris Erwin:You're like that master of ceremonies pulling the puppet strings, little do they know that Christian or your DJ name is making that all happen? That's a cool thing. Christian Baesler:The best example would be just like it's a form of meditation where you can influence the behaviors of a big group of people just by playing certain sounds and everything happens in a synchronized way, which is incredibly fascinating that's possible with music as a human species, you can just align everyone through these quite simple ways. Chris Erwin:A unique form of leadership in a way. So let's transition now as you go from university and integrated study into full-time at Bauer. So I think this happens around 2008, there's some like various roles in the company. What's your transition into full-time? What does that look like? Christian Baesler:It was actually 2012 into full-time. So 2008, I started integrated study that went until 2012. And so that study started 2008. I was 18 turning 19. So right after high school, straight into this college integrated study program. And so when I finished in 2012, I was 22 turning 23. Normally you stay within that company for two years after. That's kind of part of the deal, which is great for the student because you have a guaranteed job. And it's great for the company because they get someone at an entry level rate, relatively speaking, that already knows the company for the last three years of having worked there. So it's a great mutual partnership. But usually you're supposed to stay in that location, which for me, was in Germany. I was in Hamburg, which is where the company is headquartered. And so there was kind of a role carved out for me in a certain team or division and everything is kind of pre-planned. Christian Baesler:As part of the integrated study, so during those first three, four years, there were two opportunities to go abroad. One was to study a semester abroad, which I ended up doing at Boston University. And then there was the opportunity to work abroad for one of those practical semesters. And I ended up going to the US office of Bauer Media, the company I was working with. And when I got there during the study part of the three, four years. First of all, I was very fascinated by the US studying at BU and the overall energy and culture and approach here seemed very different to everything I grew up. Christian Baesler:And so it felt very different in a positive way. And then working at the office in New York for Bauer right after, the energy in the office was also totally different. Everyone was much more focused, much more passionate to just do the best work. And more importantly, for my role there specifically, and again, I was still like a 20, 21 year old student at the time, the big opportunity I saw coming here was that there wasn't really a digital business yet that was already built out. There were print magazines and actually at the time, Bauer was the biggest magazine publisher selling at newsstands in the US. So like supermarket checkouts, at airports, all the usual places where you would buy a physical magazine. And so they were the biggest magazine publisher at the time with multiple magazines. The most well-known ones are probably In Touch Weekly, Life & Style Weekly, Woman's World and First for Women. Christian Baesler:And it wasn't like an oversight that they didn't have a digital strategy or the digital business yet, it was by the nature of their print business model. Traditionally, all the media companies in the US, the magazine media companies in the US are build on discounting subscriptions to lock you in for a period of time as an audience and then they monetize it through advertising. So it's basically getting scale in subscriptions, which often a loss leader to then make money through ads. So when all these other companies expanded to digital in the early 2000s, they followed the same model for the online business which is giving away content for free, which is basically giving away subscriptions or discounting subscriptions and then monetizing the reach through ads. Christian Baesler:And so Bauer made the majority of its revenues through actually selling a single magazine to the reader. They didn't discount any subscriptions. The ads was a small part of the business. And so that made them very profitable and very successful, but it didn't really lend itself to just be scaled online because people just weren't used to paying for that kind of content online. Chris Erwin:And a totally new muscle to flex in terms of trying to try a new business model, hire the right team against that new mandate, manage it. So enter Christian, right? Christian Baesler:Yeah. I got there, again, as a student at first in 2011, it was. And so again, that was kind of the context that were the successful print magazines that make most of their revenue through consumers. And there was no way to make revenue through consumers as easily online. And the usual business model is to get most audience possible and directly to a sales team, sell ads into it, which the company wasn't set up for to do both in terms of the people and the kind of focus that was there, but also it might've disrupted the print business more rapidly if we would have pursued a different approach online. And so the timing there, again, was very unique and very much in my favor, which are really like two things. Christian Baesler:One, there was not the emergence of more standardized technologies like WordPress for example, and other systems that were already pre-built were more readily available. You didn't have to completely invent everything from scratch. And the other big opportunity at the time that was developing was programmatic advertising, which means you don't need an expensive sales team to have human conversations with potential clients and convinced him that they should not spend this money with you which in our position at the time, we were one of the smallest in terms of online reach and probably not as differentiated to some of our competitors. Christian Baesler:So it was a lot of upfront risk to spend all this money on the team that might then sell something where with programmatic advertising, every page impression that we generates has a certain amount of ads on them. And they automatically monetize through Google or other partners without question. And so it became very predictable. If we have more traffic, we can make more money without having an upfront risk of hiring a team to sell that space. Chris Erwin:What I want to understand is when you come in, you rise to transform this company into digital and to lead an innovation of their business model. And you are tapped to do this at a pretty young age. So when you are tapped to lead this initiative, some interesting things happen. One, I believe that you probably to really diverged from your peers in a meaningful way that are the same age and two, you get your hands dirty and in the weeds more than I think, I've heard about a lot of other executives, you're building their digital websites and their tech stack yourself, not hiring another team yourself. So first talk about when you were tapped to lead this, what did that feel like? Were you excited? Were you scared? Was it like, "No, of course I'm going to do this." What was in your head? Christian Baesler:It sounded surreal at first. And just again, the context at the US company was what I described and so I was there first as a student still on my program and I basically took the initiative to say, "Well, you say there is no opportunity here, why don't I just build a case study for you?" And so I programmed a website, plugged in the programmatic ads. And at first, I was also creating some of the contents myself for the website to be published there. Chris Erwin:You were writing what type of content? Christian Baesler:There was celebrity news on In Touch's websites. After the first few ones, we ended up hiring some freelancers and relied on some additional support. But yes, in the beginning it was basically, let me show you that there's potential opportunity here while I was still a student there. And I was there for three months, and in that three months I could showcase that there's a probable business. We basically build the website and monetize it, and it was profitable just within that trial period of the time I was there as an assignment. Christian Baesler:At the end of that assignment, when I received the job offer to go back full-time to the US business and join at the time director of new media. And I was still like 21, 22-year-old student in university and I still had one more year to go, I still had to finish my school. And so that was hugely flattering and surprising to be getting that level of trust and also that kind of offer even before I graduated and it was actually frustrating and I still had to basically finish my school for another year before I could take that opportunity. Christian Baesler:So I did go back to Germany and finish the degree and ended up moving to the US in 2012 for this job. And at first I was very scared and concerned I would say, because there were two differences I would say that I was facing to anyone else coming into this role. One was just, I was highly inexperienced in a traditional sense because I never managed people before and I never had one singular boss before I rotated through the whole company but I wasn't part of a traditional team. So now, having to lead a department or in this case it was just me in the beginning but the agreement or the goal was to build it up. It felt very scary because I hadn't done it before and I didn't see it before. Chris Erwin:That's a lot of responsibility at a young age. You're already going through a lot of change when you graduate university, and now this is adding in... It's a lot of change that happens in your career in your 20s is now happening to you all at 21. Christian Baesler:Totally. And also in a different country. While I just had spent six months in the US to study semester here and to work for the company here, it was still now being in a different country with a different culture in a leadership position at relatively young age. And so that was definitely a period of me not feeling sure or confident if I'm ready for this, if I can accomplish the goals that are set or if I'm able to meet the expectations. But in terms of how I felt just about being given the opportunity, it was very, again, flattering. Christian Baesler:But also, just I was very positively surprised to receive that level of trust that someone took a chance on me so early on in my career, which I would say is a constant theme that goes back to people back then trusting me to build their websites, later to work for the local newspaper at a relatively early age. And so having people that trusted me, was probably the single most important way for me to progress with these opportunities. Chris Erwin:Well, and putting in the work to be rewarded with that trust. But also just again the serendipity, Bauer a traditional media business that could really be empowered by transforming to digital and with your background and skills it was like right place, right time. Christian Baesler:Also, it's right place, right time but also I think in general when I talk to other friends about it, it's making sure that you are available for opportunities. You put yourself out there and you put in the hard work, but then when they arise that you go for them. It was definitely a difficult decision for me to say, "Okay. I'm not going to move by myself to the US and take this role and go into this uncertainty." And actually at the time, Bauer in Germany was against me going to the US even though the US part of the company wanted to hire me because they said, "We're educating for the German market and we have this path set out for you here," which was a more traditional progression. Christian Baesler:It was like, "You're going to be this junior project manager on this thing over here." And so that was ultimately decided against, as in they didn't want me to go to the US. And so I basically advocated and lobbied and showed what the potential benefit is or the risks of me not going for a few months to ultimately convince them otherwise. If I would've given up at the time, I would probably not be here where I am today. Chris Erwin:As we like to say, you stood in your power. You had a point of view and you put your foot down and said, "There's a major opportunity in the US, it's where I want to be and I'm going to make this a mutual win." And I like how you said, availability for opportunities. When people talk about success, there's luck that comes into it but it's increasing the likelihood of luck. I'm reading a book called, The Psychology of Money by Morgan Housel. And he talks about setting up your life, your finances, your health, so that when that opportunity comes along you can pounce and you are in a situation where you very much could and could very much make the case. Look, there is a lot more that we could talk about with Bauer. I know we're probably going to rush through the next five to six years there but I want to make sure we have time to talk about Complex, because there's a lot there too. Christian Baesler:Of course. Chris Erwin:A big question that I have is, I look at your next years at Bauer; you're navigating profitability in unprofitable times and you look a lot of digital peers in the US. And I was part of this world, the MCNs and all the digital studios that emerge out of Google original channels program, a lot of companies that did not succeed. And then you end up running two businesses at once, a UK media business and a digital business. I'm curious, high level, how did your leadership evolve during that period of coming in as a newbie leader at 21, 22, to the type of leader you were at the end of this incredible experience? And we'll save another podcast again, to the details there. Christian Baesler:I would say it evolved from not being sure what it means to be a manager and how to lead people, let alone different culture. When I first started to having to figure out how to do a lot in the weeds with other people in the US part, to then hiring a more senior team that then I was working with on a much higher level being less in the weeds. So in the end of my US time, we actually separated out the digital business into its own company called Bauer Xcel Media with standalone content creation technology, everything you can imagine having in a traditional visual media company. And so we had C-level executives, we had vice presidents, senior presidents for different functions. Christian Baesler:And so I transitioned from being the person that creates the content or writes the website to managing senior people at all times really, were older than I was. And so figuring out how to motivate and mentor people in their day-to-day work with me having had less work experience, was definitely one challenge. And it was the startup nature I would say in the US, when I ended up going to the UK as well. Where Bauer is the largest magazine company and Europe's largest radio company, it was kind of the opposite situation. There were already hundreds of brands and hundreds of people across all those brands that worked on digital, and I joined to oversee the digital business. And so I inherited an existing business with existing practices and that was mostly I would say big learning on change management, how do I build partnerships throughout the organization of other functions that don't report into me? How do I get alignments as I think about restructuring and making large scale changes of how we work and who was in certain roles? Chris Erwin:This is interesting. So let me ask you specifically, mentoring people and hiring people that are older than you in senior roles that you're the ultimate leader, what worked well for you to be able to do that? Christian Baesler:There were two parts, there's making sure I convinced people to join the company I was with from other jobs that were companies maybe they were more established to what we're trying to build. And so at that part, I was worried about what was the vision and can I show enough confidence and enough support to make them feel like they can truly build something here. So that was really the big opportunity to co-create or co-build something, but then in turns out actually working with them is finding the right people and then letting them do their work without interfere. So I was seeing myself more as a mediator or almost like the role of a therapist, of making sure they have the tools to work towards achieving their goals without me necessarily telling them what to do in there functions. Chris Erwin:I like that a lot. One of the greatest lessons that I learned was from the old founder and CEO of Big Frame, Steve Raymond, who said, "Hire great people and get out of the way and empower them." Beautiful, simple words and it works. Christian Baesler:Absolutely. And I think that's also what makes people feel like they're trusted and they have the freedom to truly make an impact. Chris Erwin:So Christian, we just took a break. We were talking about change management at Bauer and one of your proudest moments, why don't you tell us about that moment there? Christian Baesler:So looking back throughout my career the proudest moment I had is, at first in the US we were able to separate the digital business that I was tasked with creating into its own division, into its own company. The overall company is called Bauer Media Group, it's one of the largest media companies in the world, a couple of billion in revenue and more than 10,000 staff and one in a thousand radio, TV and magazine brands. It actually might be the biggest magazine company globally in terms of circulation. And so it's a huge organization. Christian Baesler:And so in the US when I was busy, at first the only person doing a digital business in the end we were roughly 50 to 60 people just for the US digital business and spun it off into its own company. The inspiration for me for that was the innovator's dilemma book which is basically, why do big companies that are successful in one industry fail when they're not seeing kind of the innovations around the corner and where things are going? And I thought that in general with print media and specifically at Bauer that was on the horizon and really the only way to solve for it is to create a separate company that in the context of the new market is big relatively speaking, because at Bauer the problem was always printed, so profitable and it's so big, why do we care so much about the small digital dollars? We don't want to cannibalize ourselves. Christian Baesler:And realizing that it's inevitable that digital would be bigger than prints and if we don't cannibalize ourselves our competitors will cannibalize us. And so ultimately, I got them to spin off in a separate company in the US at first called Bauer Xcel Media, which I then became the president of. And because we have been profitable every year since the beginning and scaled other 50 people and we're still highly profitable, which as you mentioned at this time was unusual with a lot of venture-backed companies raising hundreds of millions. I ultimately convinced the ownership, it's a family owned company in the fourth generation, to roll out that model globally. Chris Erwin:How did you convince them? Was it you just call up the family owner, the patriarch, and say, "I want to do some change?" Was it scheduled big board meeting? What was that process? Christian Baesler:I only really learned about what board meetings are after joining Complex now, because back then in a family owned business the board is the owner and so in this case is one person that owns more than 90% of the company. And so we would have monthly or quarterly check-ins with her and some of the other management team she has, just talking about business progress. And at the time they were super fascinated that we were able to build such a profitable business with no investment upfront and relatively little resources. And so they were really curious how we did it and why we were succeeding. And the business grew even more and was even more profitable after we spun off to be a separate business. Ultimately, it led to a conversation of, why are we not doing this in every country? Chris Erwin:When you have management saying, "Why are we not doing more of this?" That's a great place for you to be. Christian Baesler:Exactly. And ultimately, they rolled out Bauer Xcel Media as a concept of separating the digital business from the traditional magazine or radio business in every other major markets. And ultimately, the goal was to have one global platform. So one content management system, one ad tech stack, all the things you would imagine having locally and that's what enabled me then to also take on the UK business operationally to basically do the same business expansion there. Chris Erwin:Last question on Bauer, Christian, did you say that you came up with the name Xcel Media, the digital unit? Christian Baesler:Yes. Chris Erwin:What was the inspiration for that? And was that a proud moment to say, "This is my name, my stamp on the company." Christian Baesler:It was definitely the proudest moment and I think they still even use it now, every company and every country now that does digital is still called Bauer Xcel Media. So it's kind of my legacy now within the company that they're still adopting my name and the logo we created and everything. The name, it's difficult to find a good name in general and it doesn't always have to be super prescriptive of what it is that you're making, best example the Apple that sells computers. The name I think is completely arbitrary just to make sure it's not something negative. Christian Baesler:Traditionally, any kind of digital team within the company was called 'New Media,' which was my title actually. Director of New Media, which what does that mean in the context of everything or 'Digital Media,' which eventually everything will be digital at some point. And so we wanted to find something that wasn't so limiting in what it could mean or it would be out of date a few years later. And Excel just as a name, like the spreadsheet software, just thinking of doing something better and that's more progressive than what we've done so far was the inspiration. I think we just decided to leave out the E like the software, it's spelled X-C-E-L just to make it sound a bit more fancy. But that was the goal to find something lasting that sounds more inspiring. Chris Erwin:Yet another creative fingerprint from Christian that touches audiences, people in society in a unique way. All right. So speaking of interesting names, we now transition to the Complex part of the story. So you're at Bauer for about 10 years, a decade, maybe you're on the path to be the CEO, but something causes you to rethink where you want to be. And I'm curious, were you seeking out change or did change come to you or a mix of both? Christian Baesler:Actually, the change I was seeking at the time after 10 years at Bauer was a break and time to reflect. My plan was to take at least a year off and do a world trip in a way that I think was only possible at that time and maybe still now, meaning I didn't want to plan anything upfront. If I wanted to stay a certain place I like it, I might stay longer or not. Where I feel like you can take a vacation or even a sabbatical you're still at work, you're still thinking about work, you're still checking emails. Christian Baesler:And so I truly wanted to be completely disconnected from everything and if I hate it, then I can stop after two months and if not I would go longer and so that was my goal. And after 10 years in Bauer and the end of it living between London and New York, which was fun but also very tiring as we would fly every week or every two weeks between the two cities; I slept like four hours a night, I felt like I needed a break. So I resigned actually my roles at Bauer for that reason. So I wasn't actually planning to work again right after this. Chris Erwin:How much time was there? Did you get a reprieve? Did you get a vacation? What was the gap before you went to Complex? Christian Baesler:Probably a month I would say. Chris Erwin:A month, okay. Christian Baesler:Not what I had hoped for. Chris Erwin:I was thinking about this notion of sabbatical or time off recently. And I think it is one of the healthiest things that you can do, but I also feel that young up and comers feel well, "I'm going to get out of my groove. I got relationships, people like my work," and they don't want to change that. But I actually think spaces' transformative. So what was the special moment? Was it a conversation with Rich that made you change this whole big plan that you had been formulating for a while? Christian Baesler:Exactly. So Rich and I reached the founder and CEO of Complex, we've known each other since I think 2014. We met at a Digiday conference that we were both speaking at and we stayed in touch, maybe every three months or so we would have breakfast or lunch just to talk about what's happening in industry and what we're seeing in our businesses. I've always enjoyed my conversations with Rich. I was always very impressed by what Complex was doing and how fast it was growing. Christian Baesler:And so I would just meet him on ongoing basis, including when I just had resigned my role at Bauer and basically mentioned to him that I left or I'm actually leaving. After a six months' notice, I had to serve out which is a very European thing that even after you give notice you still have to work for at least three if not six more months, but I already had resigned but I was still there for six months. And I told him I planned to do a world trip and from that moment on he basically pitched me into join Complex instead. And so the one month was basically the compromise to still have some time off in between. Chris Erwin:So it's Rich's fault, he blew up this once in a lifetime chance for an amazing vacay. What did he tell you or show you that caused you to just totally change your thinking and come on board? Christian Baesler:Two things, the ability to focus on fewer brands and go deeper. At Bauer in the US we had 15 brands, in the UK when I was still in UK business it was more than 100 brands. So you never really focused on a brand in the role that I had there, it was always systems and processes and people and so it was very abstract, where this was truly a brand business. Christian Baesler:And then the second part which was the most exciting for me as well, it's just the diversity of the business in terms of the business models. Everything I had done previously was traditional digital media of building websites and optimizing the monetization of those websites for the most part, where at Complex it was also a huge TV, video business, a huge events business, a huge actual commerce business not just affiliate. So I also felt like I would learn a lot and get a lot of experience in areas of media and entertainment that I hadn't had exposure to previously. Chris Erwin:So Rich recruits you, what is your mandate on day one? "All right Christian, you like our vision, here's what we need you to do." What was that? Christian Baesler:I would say my main mandate was to optimize the operations of the company, that the company had been through a lot of growth previously and was acquired in 2016 by Verizon and by Hearst. And so I joined two years later. And so now it reached this point of maturity as an organization in terms of much bigger staff now and many more goals and so my role was created to help create focus and reorganize what we do and how we do it, but also to continue to scale it to the next stage of growth. Chris Erwin:I'm thinking back to your 21-year-old moment being tapped as the director of a department at Bauer. You were scared then. You were excited about the responsibility but natural anxiety. Now you're entering an exciting, well-lauded company in digital media and entertainment at a very senior level. What were your feelings at that point? Christian Baesler:I think at the beginning it was also a question of to some degree anxiety, because there were two unknowns or two uncertainties. One, at Bauer I was there for 10 years and even if I switched between countries or switched between roles I already had established myself, people internally knew me and I already had trust of the people around me. When I went to the UK, people already knew I did something successful in the US office so there was an established relationship or awareness, where here I felt like I was the new person coming in and I had to prove myself all over again. Christian Baesler:So that was definitely a big unknown or a big source of anxiety in the beginning of, can I do it again? Can I prove myself again? And then the second part was just around as I mentioned it, I was very excited about the opportunity because of the expansion to other areas of media entertainment that I hadn't done previously but now it was also my job to work in those areas not having had done them previously in such a way. And so there was also the question of, how quickly can I get up to speed to make sure we're doing better as a business as a whole, including those areas. Chris Erwin:How did you prove yourself? How did you gain trust with this new team right off the bat? What was your immediate approach? Christian Baesler:And with that it was very helpful to just have been at the UK part of Bauer which was established team, established company, everything was already there and I was brought on to optimize it in the UK. It was an incredible learning experience in my most recent role prior to apply here. And so the big learning was, to build trust first and to truly understand what's working and not working is to take the time. Christian Baesler:So the first three months of joining, I would not make any changes. I would not introduce anything new unless it was obvious or easy just so there's time to build relationships and to basically go on the listening tour and hear from everyone throughout the company what's working, what's not working and through basically creating a list of opportunities and issues I would get buy-in from each of the established people throughout the company to then collaborate on solving all the various issues or optimizing all the various opportunities. Chris Erwin:I love that. You're a big new executive, people might expect you're going to come in and mandate all this big change, new culture, the best leaders don't do that. There's an existing culture. There's a lot of smart, great people, listen to them, process that and then you start to add your flair to the business over time. So you joined Complex, this is back in 2018, this is two to three years ago? Christian Baesler:Right. Chris Erwin:Now, you know our team and I write about and I tweet about, why I think Complex is so special, that you guys have built this very impressive, diverse business across media, ads sales, commerce, E-learning events, virtual events, the gamut and which I'll let you talk about. I want to hear, why do you think Complex is so special? Talk about the business of what it is and why it is so unique to its peers and just in the overall media market place. Christian Baesler:I think the three reasons or answers why we are so successful or why we are different to some of our peers, the first one is just; which is the biggest one is, passion for the things that we're covering and creating. We don't cover certain contents or create certain content because it's popular in Google or Facebook right now and we think there's a revenue opportunity, if we were to cover it. All the things that we're creating which historically was mostly in the hip hop and sneakers and streetwear space, we've been pants off from the beginning when they were all still niches and subcultures early in 2001, 2002 when the company was started. And so it's that deep passion that leads to authenticity, like are people actually care about what we're creating which then resonates differently with the audience. Christian Baesler:And so we have benefited as a company from those content categories now being as big as they are with hip hop being the biggest music category and sneakers and streetwear is the biggest in fashion. And we expanded to other verticals since then, but it's really finding people that are truly passionate about the content that you're creating. From a business model perspective, I would say the second big difference is that we think about everything in a 360 connected way. We don't create a product that's a website and then separately we think, "There might be some revenue in events, let's create a completely different event just so we have an event." Everything is connected. Christian Baesler:And so one good comparison I could give is Marc Ecko, who's the co-founder of Complex together with Rich who was also a fashion designer, he compared it to us not trying to be like another print magazine at the time like The Source or XXL [inaudible 00:50:27] or from a TV perspective not like MTV but a youth cultured Disney. Disney, meaning like they think about each of their shows and movies as IP that then translates to all these different revenue streams across events and commerce rather than afterthought and that's really how we're approaching a lot of our businesses. Christian Baesler:And then the third one which I would say is helping us especially in these times today and I was very impressed by as well when I was talking to Rich before joining, it's just the responsibility from a financial perspective that the business has had and has been taken for for years now. We, as the company now, didn't raise a crazy amount of money like some of our peers did, which made us much more focused on running a sustainable business from the beginning. And so with that, we've been running a business that's been profitable for years now which allowed us to be much more dynamic and much more flexible in how we make decisions. Chris Erwin:I think to that last point because you probably won't say it yourself Christian due to your humility, but from personal experience in digital media and modern media there is a lot of founders that are great visionaries, have an idea of where they want to build to but don't know how to build sustainably towards that end. And you exhibited in your career from early days of wanting to build and create, having the lean resources that you had access to, it's like you had your uncle's computer hardware do what you can with that. Then going into Bauer and learning how to do that at a company, I feel like this was ingrained to you not only very early on in your childhood but also in your early career. Chris Erwin:And I think that you are a special leader that a lot of other companies lack that don't bring this discipline nor this focus. And it speaks to another sentiment which is at a lot of media companies studios, is usually a complimentary leadership, like a great business mind and a great visionary. And I think that you and Rich can serve as both, but you're optimizing the day-to-day being in the weeds with the team and also having incredible passion yourself for these brands and where you want this business to go. It feels like a very exciting setup for where Complex can go next. But I don't like to overly editorialize in these interviews, but I do want to call that out for the listeners because I think it's special and worth hearing. Christian Baesler:Totally. Thank you so much. I very much appreciate the kind words. Chris Erwin:Of course. Christian Baesler:I think the overall theme is definitely resourcefulness of just trying to figure out how to make things from very little, where in my case growing up that was just the environment I came from as I mentioned. But also as a company, I think if you have too much funding available it leads you down wrong decisions more easily and you don't realize that you made wrong decisions until you run out of money, so that's a very dangerous path. I do think there is still value in raising money if you have highly scalable business models, let's say if you have subscriptions with a proven cost per acquisition and other things. But for where media is today, it's not as beneficial as people thought it would be five or 10 years ago. Chris Erwin:So with all of those nice things being said, let's talk about something that you and I have chatted in coffee shops before and with Rich, that you feel a lack of industry recognition by your peers, by the press, Complex doesn't get the attention or the notoriety that it deserves. Why don't you expand on that a little bit. Christian Baesler:In general, there's still I would say in the traditional B2B world but also just in a general consumer perspective of people that might not be of our audience and non awareness of either who we are in general or how big we are and how diversified we are, all the things we're doing as a business. But just I think the most simple fact would just be that we, based on Comscore which is the standard measurement for digital media in the US, reached to most 18 to 34 year old males in the US more than any other media company and more than double to Vice and still most people know Vice or think of Vice as the biggest youth culture brand. Christian Baesler:And I give them a lot of credit for having done great marketing and they raised a lot of money for being able to do so over the years. But there's also another prejudice which is, the things that we do and the things that we cover like sneakers or hip hop both as a music as well as culture are niche. Meaning there are small, passion groups of small audiences. But actually, hip hop by far now is the biggest music category in the US and sneakers are a huge growing business, that's the fastest and biggest in fashion now. Christian Baesler:And so those industries are now mass and today's youth, meaning 13 to 40 probably, are incredibly passionate about them. So we're dealing with kind of a prejudice or to some degree ignorance about the markets with those things being perceived as niche, as well as our role in that overall market that we've been working through for the last few years of changing that awareness holistically. Chris Erwin:That sense about the prejudice of being niche focused and I think you've also talked about even the stigma around streetwear culture and hip hop can impact you. I never thought about that before, but it's interesting to think about. All right. So at Complex, you guys have a lot of different brands, a lot of different businesses. Let's talk about some of your favorite children, which I don't know if you often do but we've learned your passions in this interview. What do you kind of love the most working on there, some of the content that you have? Christian Baesler:I think the most obvious one to mention now that maybe most of the listeners know as well is Hot Ones; our interview show where celebrities eat chicken wings while they get interviewed and those chicken wings gets spicier and spicier. And so it's highly entertaining to watch but also to work with the team on and it's been an amazing experience to help them diversify their business beyond advertising into hot sauce, into a game show, into a board game. So that has been an incredible experience. Christian Baesler:But then we also have shows like sneaker shopping, where we have a host go into sneaker stores, interview celebrities in context of sneakers that we diversified into education programs, basically learning how to get into the sneaker industry as a student. But also, up and coming shows like Full Size Run which is a weekly show where we interview celebrities, talk to celebrities as a talk show talking about the sneakers of the week that were released. That's kind of the show that's on the next level coming up. Chris Erwin:And what's the name of that again, Christian? Christian Baesler:Full Size Run. Chris Erwin:Full Size Run. Got it. Christian Baesler:And so that's on the more entertainment side, we also have programming that's more investigative, more serious news journalism with our biggest show there called Complex World which looks at different issues throughout the country, especially in the upcoming election cycle. So it's a balance between the entertainment part of it that's more fun and more casual, to the more serious journalism as well. Chris Erwin:And what you talked about, which I want to make clear for the listeners is you talked about E-learning classes for how to launch streetwear products and businesses. And I think a very cool new theme that Complex has spearheaded in our industry is, we're not just hip hop, streetwear culture and news and reporting, we are expertise in understanding of this space. And that allows you to expand your business in many different ways and to sell that expertise to other businesses, advertiser clients or even youth who are in undergrad programs at Parsons or FIT for example, and to make them better entrepreneurs in your verticals, that is just an awesome thing. Christian Baesler:Absolutely. Chris Erwin:All that being said Christian, you love DJing music. So is it Pigeons and Planes? What's one of the brands that you do a lot but what for you that really resonates with your heart? Christian Baesler:I think Pigeons and Planes resonates because of my passion with music because the focus of Pigeons and Planes is to give emerging artists a platform before they are big enough to be covered by the more traditional music publications or even by Complex and that to me is the most important part of the ecosystem. Everyone that has great talent has the same struggle in the beginning which is, how do I get awareness for what I'm doing? And having a brand within our portfolio does just that, not just through social media and articles, but we do events where we bring emerging artists onto the stage in different cities, has been a big passion of mine for sure to work with. Chris Erwin:All right. So a couple more questions on Complex and then we're going to get into the rapid fire and we'll close this out, how's that sound good? Christian Baesler:It sounds good. Chris Erwin:I don't think I've fully exhausted Christian yet, but maybe getting close in this marathon. Where do you want complex to be in 2021 that you're not right now? Christian Baesler:The main goal that we still have ahead of us that got somehow paused this year is internationalization or globalization. Right now, we are the biggest youth culture company or collection of brands in the US. And what's quite unique right now is that the passion points and the topics that we are the experts on here, are also the biggest in many other markets internationally. So again, hip hop music as a culture and sneakers and streetwear, but there isn't a b

Chas Lacaillade is the founder and CEO of Bottle Rocket Management. Chas took a big bet on the digital video revolution, and now builds businesses for some of the most exciting creative talent from New Hollywood. We discuss why he left a prestigious talent agency to sell water pumps, Louisiana roadtrips, and how he converted a $5,000 bank loan into a multi-million dollar business. Full episode transcript is below.  Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com--EPISODE TRANSCRIPTChris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Chas Lacaillade:I had my Jerry Maguire moment where I called all my clients and said, "Am I your manager? Am I your manager? And if so, this is my new endeavor, I'm going out on my own." It was terrifying. I took out a $5,000 loan from Chase Bank to live, and there was no interest for the first 18 months. Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Chas Lacaillade. Chas took a big bet on the digital video revolution, and now he builds businesses for some of the most exciting creative talent from New Hollywood. Yet Chas's career has a lot of twists and turns, and includes a lot of early disillusionment to be honest, like when he left a prestigious Hollywood talent agency to sell water pumps. But Chas's ambition eventually pays off. A Louisiana road-trip inspires a new career and soon after he turns a $5,000 bank loan into a multi-million dollar business. So Chas is a close friend of mine, and he's known for telling you like it is. It makes for fun listening. All right, let's get into it. Chris Erwin:Quick heads up, that my interview with Chas was recorded back in December and prior to COVID. Chas, welcome to the podcast. Chas Lacaillade:Great being here. Chris Erwin:Before we go through your entire entertainment story which is an impressive one, let's talk about some of your early days. Where did you grow up? Chas Lacaillade:I grew up in Lincoln Park, a neighborhood in Chicago which is very picturesque, very walkable. I attended schools in the neighborhood. All my friends lived in the neighborhood and it was great. I just had a really magical childhood, to be honest. I walked through Lincoln Park to my school, on winter days I'd walk through this enchanting, snow-covered park back home from school, and I'd have lots of time to review what I'd experienced that day, and what was going on in my life, and what I wanted to do. And I think that meditative time was really helpful for me in getting in tune with my thoughts because your teenage years are so frantic, and there's so much insecurity. You know, it took me about 40 minutes to get home probably, or between 30 and 40 minutes to walk home from school, and so- Chris Erwin:"Up hill both ways-" Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Chris Erwin:... as my father used to say. He was also from Chicago- Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Chris Erwin:... which was considered a pretty flat neighborhood overall. Chas Lacaillade:Yeah, and dodging crossfire from enemy combatants. And so, just walking home gave me some contemplative time, it was very therapeutic, that probably a lot of kids don't get. Chris Erwin:So in these meditative moments, were you thinking about your future career and that you were planning to start something, or was it more of like the whimsical child fantasies and fun back in the day? Chas Lacaillade:Well, I was a big reader as a child, so I read a lot of fiction and nonfiction, and I consumed a lot of biographies from basically, the age I could start reading. And biographies on a really wide range of people. So I remember when I was 12, reading Muhammad Ali's biography, and then Ayatollah Khomeini's biography. Chris Erwin:Wow. Chas Lacaillade:Just a real span of people because I was interested in a lot of different points of view, and the more I became exposed to what was out there and the different ways to obtain leadership, and fame, and infamy, and repute, and accomplishment, the more I became fascinated with what was possible if you just created a path for yourself. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Chas Lacaillade:And so, a lot of my thoughts were dedicated just to reviewing what these people who really impressed me, how they got to where they did. And how I could chart a path for myself that would employ my personal interests, that could hopefully some day lead to me being successful and known. Chris Erwin:Through many of our conversations over the years, there's a strong sense that you are highly ambitious, and that you really strive to overcome challenge. And I know that you often share with me, different biographical stories from magazines, something that you're reading in Esquire or GQ, or we will compare notes about Shackleton's journey to the Arctic. Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Yeah. Chris Erwin:And I think these stories really resonate with you. I see this as a precursor to starting Bottle Rocket dating back 15, 20 years. Was there entrepreneurs in your family, your mother and father, siblings? Chas Lacaillade:Touching on what you were saying about these people that I've always been very impressed by, fortunately my parents exposed me to a lot of different ways of life. And I remember visiting William Randolph Hearst's mansion and just being so blown away by the scope of what this guy built, and how he lived, and his lifestyle, and the indoor pool and the outdoor pool. And all the art and architecture that he had imported from around the world, and how he'd customized this lifestyle. And so, I was so thrilled by that ambiance and the glamor of it. You know, how could I not be curious about how he provided this, and how he made this possible for himself? And so that lead me to familiarize myself with his accomplishments. And so once you know who somebody is and how they did it, and in this case he was very entrepreneurial, right? He created a newspaper empire and there's little he wouldn't do in order to achieve success. Chas Lacaillade:And so exposure to things like his mansion, or The Breakers in Rhode Island, and Providence, Rhode Island. I would go tour the Vanderbilt's mansions with my family in Rhode Island too. So just, I got exposure to these really impressive families. And my parents, my mother and father, would tell me how Cornelius Vanderbilt made his fortune, how he created a shipping empire. Or how Randolph Hearst created a newspaper empire. Chris Erwin:It's essentially made these stories accessible to you. Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Chris Erwin:They grounded them in saying, "These are normal people-" Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:... "just like you and I, and so this is attainable if you have the spirit, and the intent, and drive to make it happen." Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:Is that like what you're processing of these stories and exposure? Chas Lacaillade:That's how I internalized it. It was also just like, "This is a pretty fascinating place. It's basically a museum, it's also a house. And it's indicative of a lifestyle that is pretty much bygone." And different people are going to take that in differently, but the way I interpreted the whole experience on all those occasions was like, "This is what's out there. If they did it, you can do it." Chris Erwin:I like that. Instead of looking at it and saying, "Oh, I can never achieve that," and then there's pangs of jealousy and frustration, it's, "Wow, if I hold myself big, there's incredible opportunity in front of me." Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Chris Erwin:So let's fast forward. You find yourself in LA in 2006, and you're starting as an agent trainee at ICM Partners. So, what lead to the decision to join entertainment, overseeing and representing talent? Did you perceive it as, "This is the way to pursue your big ambitions"? Or, "Hey, this is just a key building block in learning, and I have a structured trajectory that I'm planning"? What was that thought process? Chas Lacaillade:Well, I'd always been really enamored with the world of entertainment, and Hollywood, music, they are areas that have fascinated me from a very young age. Consumed movies, and television, and music at a very high volume ever since I could remember, because I had an older brother and sister who could turn me on to different artists, and actors, and directors, and writers. So I felt like that was the path for me, and so basically I started my career out in an advertising agency in New York. Basically, I felt like I was spending a lot of time and effort at making a distraction and an impediment to what people really wanted, which was the TV show or the movie. I didn't want to make the advertisement before the movie, or the advertisement between blocks in the television show, I wanted to make the show or the movie. Chris Erwin:And just clarify for the listener, did you say that you worked in an ad agency in New York prior to ICM in LA? Chas Lacaillade:Yes. So my first job was at an ad agency that was called Euro Rscg, it's now known as Havas. It's like a worldwide advertising conglomerate. Then I worked on the Volvo and Charles Schwab accounts. I produced Volvo's first Super Bowl commercial, featuring Richard Branson. And I took a DVD of that and I sent it to the mail room basically, at ICM, and I got an interview and it worked out. Chris Erwin:And so you were at this precursor to Havas, for under a year? Chas Lacaillade:I was there for two years. Chris Erwin:So then you go to ICM- Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:... likely stars in your eyes, saying, "I don't want to just be the advertisement or the media spot, I want to help actually create the content." Chas Lacaillade:Oh yeah. You know, at ICM they wrapped Woody Allen, and Dr. Seuss estate, all these really luminaries like Halle Berry, Samuel L. Jackson, Guillermo del Toro, really famous directors and screenwriters. And was I so impressed by the luminaries that were represented at ICM, and I thought, "This would be a great place for me to gain experience and learn the ropes of the entertainment business." And it was. Chris Erwin:So the experience was what you expected? Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. You know, obviously you get a dose of reality. When you're young you don't know how hard it's going to be, and all the humbling moments that lie in store for you, and you want success much more quickly than it's likely to happen. And impatience can sometimes just frustrate how you're enjoying and processing things because you want more money, or you want more respect, or you want to be acknowledged, and truthfully, you're just another assistant, or you're just another guy fetching coffee. And you want to be seen as more than that, but until you prove yourself, you're not more than that. You are a means to an end. Chris Erwin:Something that is interesting about the agencies is that they attract ego, and I think it's something that they want. They want people coming in with confidence, with great ambition, yet at the same time there's a clear culture of, when you're there, you're in training mode, you have an incredible amount to learn. So you have to put that ego aside and say, "It's time to be a sponge." It's time to absorb from all these people that have been working for a lot longer than you have, so that you can then learn to be like, start to paint your own way. It seems like there's a unique duality there. Chas Lacaillade:I had a lot of ego and a lot of ambition, and I was humbled very quickly and- Chris Erwin:What was one of those humbling moments that you remember? Chas Lacaillade:I remember I had this really tyrannical boss, and there's no way I would've been able to accomplish what I did, subsequent to working at ICM, without his mentorship, but he used to tell me, "I'm your mentor and I'm your tormentor." Chris Erwin:That's funny. Chas Lacaillade:And he definitely did not go easy on the tormenting part. He'd tell me to do many things simultaneously, to the point where it was untenable. Like, he'd tell me to call a list of people, while composing letters to different clients, while scheduling his next lunch or his next dinner, and all of this stuff he would command me to do at that moment. At that moment. Which is physically impossible, but he didn't have any patience for any other alternative. And he also expected me to "be his brain." So he would be in the middle of conversations, he'd often have lapses of memory and he would snap his finger right before he began a sentence, which he was unsure if he could finish because he didn't know if he could remember the information. Chris Erwin:So, snapping his fingers is like an audio cue [crosstalk 00:11:12]? Chas Lacaillade:He'd snap at me hundreds of times throughout the day. Chris Erwin:No. Chas Lacaillade:So there's your first example of being humbled. He'd be on the phone with a client or a buyer at some studio and he would be embarking on this story, and he would snap at me and I would have to know what the next word in the sentence would be. Chris Erwin:You're expected to anticipate? Chas Lacaillade:Yes. And so he taught me anticipation. He made it crystal clear that if I couldn't anticipate his needs, then there's really no place for me working for him or at the company. You know, really top-tier client services anticipating what the talent is going to need, how the situation's going to present itself, how to navigate really difficult landscapes. And so, yes, it was self-serving for him because I was basically there to make him look good, but at the end of the day if you're a talent representative, you are there to make your talent look good. And so it was great training for that. Chris Erwin:I've heard a lot of the trainees and agents, sometimes they come from a place of fear about assuming the worst, so you always have to prevent or be in defensive mode. Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:But I think the best agents, and this is also good business practice for anyone is, you can also assume the best, and be opportunistic and say, "What's around the corner? What are people not thinking about? What are people not wary of that can be incredibly exciting for my talent? Can be incredibly exciting for my business?" As well as, "What is a major threat? What is a risk?" And I think, again, having that duality's important versus those that just solely come at it from a place of fear. Chas Lacaillade:Right. Exactly. And those are the people that succeed and rise most quickly, are the people who don't adhere to just status quo, and there's very few of those people in any industry. I remember being at a meeting and somebody saying, "You know which client at William Morris generates the most revenue?" And everybody thought it was Quentin Tarantino or Bruce Willis, and the person who posed the question said, "Emeril Lagasse." And he said, "This chef was unknown to most of the world five years ago, become a complete juggernaut, and has got all these lines of revenue. And the person who discovered him from William Morris and who's been helping forge opportunities for him, they're booking more revenue for him than anybody else." Chris Erwin:Wow. Chas Lacaillade:And that was an eye-opening moment for me, and that's something I really took close note of. And I thought to myself, "How can I go outside the confines of what everybody else is doing, and forge a path that will allow me to ascend higher?" I only had scant knowledge of him until that moment, and then of course first thing I did after that meeting was look him up. And then, "Who is my Emeril Lagasse? What is the avenue that's being unexplored right now?" And of course you're in a peer group that's incredibly ambitious, and incredibly intent on being successful, and oftentimes not generous with their expertise of information because any information that you get that is valuable, that diminishes their position and their value. And you're as valuable as what you know in that business. Chris Erwin:When you are entering markets where there is massive awareness about the opportunity, or where everyone is talking about it, there is less head room to grow into. Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:I think there's less profit and revenue to be created. And so it's time to be contrarian. It's also time to say, "You know, what is maybe not popular?" Or, "What is a risky bet, but that I'm going to take with the right amount of risk profile and I'm going to go forth?" And I think it's people and leaders that have that mindset, they usually have the biggest winnings. Chas Lacaillade:Right. But then, a lot of Hollywood's very traditional. The irony is that it's where all this cutting-edge entertainment and expression is generated, but at the same time the leadership and the hierarchy doesn't always encourage asymmetric thinking. And so, in fact, most people are incredibly defensive and incredibly insecure, and are adverse to taking risks. So, the only way you're going to be successful is by taking risk, and the least likely way to be acknowledged is by being different, so it's a struggle. Chris Erwin:You were at ICM Partners for a few years and then you left, what was the reason for leaving ICM? Chas Lacaillade:You know, I basically got a point there where, the WGA strike of 2008 was really tough, and that stagnated wages and it slowed everything down in the entertainment industry, in terms of opportunity and promotions. And you get to a certain point where you're like, "What am I doing to do with my life? I don't want to be just another person walking the halls here, slowly inching my way forward." And the culture at that time, it was just like, "Everybody, do what they're told." You know, that's pervasive culture, regardless of where you are. After four years of grinding and playing by the rules that had been laid out, it felt like it was time to just explore a different way of life. Chris Erwin:So, explore a different way of life? Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Chris Erwin:So that seems to capture maybe a lot of things that happened over the next few years? Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Yeah. So I'd always been very environmentally conscious, and really interested in sustainability and renewable energy, and I thought, "Maybe I'm not attaining the success I had always envisioned for myself at this stage in my life." Chris Erwin:Going back to the earlier part of our conversations where you're visiting the Hearst Castle- Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:... and learning about the Vanderbilts, and saying, "Wow, there's all this potential." Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:So you take a moment after a few years into our career, and you realize, "I don't have the success that I want." How did that feel? Chas Lacaillade:At that time I was 30 years old and I feel like if you're sane, you start to question yourself. I'm still a confident person, I'm still a very driven person, but I was beginning to wonder if my confidence and my drive were going to necessarily yield an impressive outcome, or any sort of meaningful outcome. Like, maybe I was just going to be just another guy locked into a 9:00 to 5:00 subsistence life? And maybe I wasn't as impressive and driven as I thought I was? Chris Erwin:Did that scare you? Chas Lacaillade:Oh, yeah. Definitely. That's a very unique kind of terror because it's not fleeting. It's not momentary. It's ongoing, doesn't leave you even when you sleep. It's with you when you're awake. It's with you when you're asleep. It changes your demeanor. It changes your outlook. It changes how people see you because you're questioning your very essence. You don't know if you're capable or, at that point, I didn't know if I was capable of doing what I always thought I was capable of. And so basically, at the same time I wasn't going to stop. You know, the only way forward was to push on. Chris Erwin:I think what you're getting on that's interesting is that, your planned trajectory and your fast rise had become part of your identity, that's how you knew yourself. And all of a sudden you're saying, "There could almost be a paradigm shift in my life. And if this is not my identity, then who am I-" Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:... "what's my purpose?" Chas Lacaillade:You know, I was used to being identified as keen, and hardworking, and talented, and then I had to look at myself in the mirror and say, "Well, if I'm those things, then why am I 30 years old and have a few hundred bucks in the bank?" Because people with those characteristic generally have a little bit more to show for them. And so I figured, okay, I'm running into a bit of a wall here, in my life and in my career, I need to do something where I can hopefully apply my drive and get something more out of it. And so, basically I got a job at a renewable energy company- Chris Erwin:Change industry's entirely. Chas Lacaillade:Change industry's entirely. And all these friends and family who'd seen you really work hard at something, in my case was in Hollywood, they say, "Good. Great." You know, "Happy for you," but you detect a little bit of doubt in their voice and you can't help but be unsettled by that. And you're 30 years old, I was 30 and I was like, "Oh my god. I'm basically starting from the bottom." Chris Erwin:Yeah. And I think that could also be a downward spiral where you think that there's doubt in your peer's voice about you, or their thoughts about you, but is that reality or is that just your perception and you're whipping yourself? Chas Lacaillade:I think it was reality, I think people were skeptical. But I would also say that, as you get older you realize that everybody's insecure about themselves, and so that could also be their lack of belief that they could do it. And so when they hear that you're going to switch fields, and you're going to do something completely different, in some cases what they're thinking is, "Well, I can never do that, so how's he going to do it?" Or, "I don't know anybody who's done that, how's he going to do it?" And what you need to take faith in is that, look, if you're determined and you have a game plan, it doesn't matter if they don't know anybody who's done it or if they can't do it, you can do it. Everything is doable. If there's a problem, there's a solution, so that's the way I approach things. Chas Lacaillade:And I got a job at a renewable energy company based out of Orange County, it was in Costa Mesa, and I had to commute from West LA to Costa Mesa five days a week. Chris Erwin:Wow. Chas Lacaillade:I mean, my office was essentially a garage in Costa Mesa, I mean, it was dark. Chris Erwin:So you show up- Chas Lacaillade:Literally and figuratively. And my peers were nothing like ... I wasn't interacting with these entertainment luminaries who are ... Tom Cruise wasn't on the phone. It was just basically old guys who were selling water pumps to plumbing warehouses, so talk about a total shift in gears. And my job was head of national sales, so when I wasn't in the office I was meeting with different plumbing supply warehouses and distributors throughout the nation, and getting them to carry our product, which I did very well. I increased the distribution and footprint of the product dramatically, like over 10 times. And I drove sales for this company, and I established a reputation with a group of people that I never thought I would know. Chas Lacaillade:And I say that I could not of started Bottle Rocket without my time working at ICM for that really hard boss, and I also couldn't have started Bottle Rocket had I not been head of sales for this company selling a product. It's a lot easier to sell a glamorous movie star to a studio that already wants to work with her, than it is to sell another water pump to a plumbing warehouse that has to carry it on the shelf. Chris Erwin:Did you believe that you learned these sales skills from any of your peers or the leadership at this company, or did you just have to figure it out on the go? Chas Lacaillade:You have to be open to your environment. You have to pick up cues. You have to see what people respond to. You have to read and listen to people who are experts in the field. So, there's a lot of sales manuals I read, and techniques I tried to pick and employ. Chris Erwin:Any sales seminars, weekend seminars, courses? Chas Lacaillade:No, I didn't do those so much, but obviously YouTube videos. And sales is so much about people and your relationship to people, and luckily I had developed an ability to really relate to a broad array of people, and broad range of people. And if you lead with sincerity and humor, generally, then at least you can open up somebody's receptivity to whatever message you want to convey. Chris Erwin:And the fact that you were looking at YouTube videos back then, it's just interesting to think about where you then went next. Chas Lacaillade:Right, isn't that funny. Yeah. Chris Erwin:Because you ended up at Fullscreen, but did you go right to Fullscreen, a multi-channel network, after selling water pumps, or was there another stop in between? Chas Lacaillade:Basically, I'd been working at this restaurant in West Hollywood all the while, just to pick up extra revenue. So I was definitely hustling, hustling hard to made ends meet. Chris Erwin:So you're full-time and part-time work in this period? Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. I had an epiphany when I was on a sales trip to Louisiana, and I was driving around the Bayou of Louisiana with this manufacturer's rep who was my conduit in Louisiana, distributing the pumps, and he said, "What did you used to do before you were selling pumps?" And I told him about my career at ICM. And he said, "Hold on. You and I are driving around Louisiana in 95 degree heat, trying to sell friggen water pumps, and you used to talk to movie stars and screen writers? What the hell is your problem?" He's like, "I would give up everything to start at the company that you left." He's like, "If you can leave this and go back to that ... And if you don't love this, which nobody does ..." Chas Lacaillade:He's like, "This is a means to the end. I put food on the table for my family, myself. I've got a daughter and this is how I pay for my life. You don't have any of those commitments. You're not married. You're single. You're young enough to go back to it." He's like, "If you love it like it sounds like you do, go back." This guy's name was Dustin [Ubray 00:23:08], shout out to Dustin Ubray. Chris Erwin:Thanks, Dustin Ubray, for pointing Chas on his new path. Chas Lacaillade:Yeah, and- Chris Erwin:So you hear this- Chas Lacaillade:And I'm like- Chris Erwin:... and what goes through your head? Chas Lacaillade:And I'm realizing like, you know what? I'm always going to care a lot about the environment and sustainability, but the real truth is, this is not the life I envisioned or that I want. And I was open to it and I gave it a go, but I don't see this unfolding in a way that's going to make me happy. And it's always important to explore things and really give them a sincere look, but if it doesn't feel right, you cannot be reluctant to pull the ripcord. And a lot of people are scared of starting over, and so much of success boils down to your ability to start from scratch and just persist. Chris Erwin:So in that moment, did you feel any regret where you were like, "Oh my god, I made this big change in my career and it seems that it was off to the wayside, and now I've got to get back on track"? Or did you interpret it as, "Wow, this was a really special moment, I learned a lot, and now I'm going to go back into entertainment, find a new opportunity space, but I'm further energized to do it"? Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Chris Erwin:What were you feeling? Chas Lacaillade:Well at that point, so now I'm 32, and I'm like, "Okay, the sand's going through the hourglass on me, and I'm going to do another pivot to I don't know where. I don't know who's going to hire me." And I've got some explaining to do next time I sit down at an interview because I've got some accomplishments under my belt, but they're two wildly different and divergent fields. So people are going to be curious, some people are going to be skeptical, and I'm going to have to prove myself in the room and I'm going to really have to prove myself ... if somebody gives me a chance, I'm going to really have to bust my arse for them to have faith that they made the right decision. Chris Erwin:But you had confidence that you were going to be able to do that? Chas Lacaillade:I had confidence I was going to be able to do it, but back to what we were discussing with people not wanting to take risks, HR departments are not known for being open-minded. They want to look at that resume and they want to see identifiable qualities that will give them insurance if they make a hire that doesn't work out. And so, I didn't have this, and so what I depended on was getting in the room. It was like, if I get in the room, I've got a strong chance at getting the job, but just getting in the room is tough. Chris Erwin:How did you get in the room for Fullscreen? Chas Lacaillade:I had a- Chris Erwin:Did you pick them or did they pick you? Chas Lacaillade:I had a really close friend from ICM who was best friends with the head of production at Fullscreen, and Fullscreen was a startup, and they had- Chris Erwin:Yeah, what was Fullscreen, for our audience? Chas Lacaillade:Fullscreen was a multi-channel network known as an MCN, which is basically, Fullscreen's raison d'etre was "we are going to collect a broad range of YouTube channels, and sell advertising against those YouTube channels." That's a really broad overview of what they did. And so the money that Fullscreen made was, the revenue source, was advertising on YouTube. Chris Erwin:Got it. Chas Lacaillade:That's how they made money. They had a few dozen employees. They had some venture capital investment from Peter [inaudible 00:25:59]. So yeah, a good friend of mine knew they had production there, had a production. Put my resume in the mix for a role, I went in to interview, they needed somebody just to work with these YouTuber's. I had a background in entertainment and I really, really emphasized that. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Chas Lacaillade:And my background was legitimate, and it was quality, and I had worked with a lot of people, and I had good references. Chris Erwin:So you had ICM on your resume- Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Chris Erwin:... that's instant pedigree in entertainment. Chas Lacaillade:I had references, and if they wanted to call anybody, that a lot of people liked me or were fond of me, and my work ethic was there. So at that point, a lot of people from the traditional entertainment world didn't respect YouTube, and didn't see it as a viable commercial avenue. Chris Erwin:And why do you think that was? Chas Lacaillade:They basically regarded it as a distraction, as not a competitor to TV, and radio, and film. And just for very low cost entertainment that people didn't pay for. Chris Erwin:Yeah. One of the things that I heard myself, because I was also part of the multi-channel network eco system where I first started, big frame, a wish like Fullscreen had, venture capital backing, and then also had funding from a Google originals channel program, from Google itself, and then on to AwesomenessTV. And from a lot of traditional Hollywood they would say, "These digitally native creators, they're not used to hearing the word, no. They just had this unique moment in time where they started publishing videos on YouTube or a social channel, and then they got famous." And it felt very strongly that unless you were in the annals of these MCNs, or working with these next-gen talent, you don't understand the amount of hard work, the amount of time and the commitment to the audiences that they created for themself, and the brands that they created for themself. So, I hear you on that. Chris Erwin:Chas, you're at Fullscreen and this is the job that you had right before founding Bottle Rocket, and remind me what was your role while you were at Fullscreen? Chas Lacaillade:I was the head of talent sales. Chris Erwin:Was this a division that you actually founded at the company? Chas Lacaillade:Yes. So basically what happened at Fullscreen was, I was hired to be a "talent manager," and we had a sales department and division at Fullscreen. You know, I was talking to the talent, I was working with these YouTubers. This is early, this is 2013. They would get offers to promote products for 5,000 or 2,500 bucks, and the big YouTuber's case like $10,000, and I said, "You know, I've got experience in talent representation, let me secure and negotiate these opportunities for you." So I close a deal for a talent to promote a product, and sales caught wind of what I was doing, the sales department, and they said, "Listen, it's not your role to do any sort of sales activity here at Fullscreen. We are the division and the department that's dedicated to that. And the threshold for any deals that our talent participates in is $50,000. If it's not $50,000 or above, it's not worth Fullscreen's time. You know, if it's less than 50K, we pass on it." Chris Erwin:So, they're telling you to stay in your lane- Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:... and here's your lane by the way, what this looks like, and let us do our thing? Chas Lacaillade:And if it's less than 50K, decline. And I said, "Well, there's a lot of money between $1 and $50,000, we're leaving a lot of money on the table, and that's really important for our clients, that's how they pay their bills." And they said, "Listen, if it gets to 50K, hand it over to us and we'll take care of it." Kind of a pat on the head. And I found that incredibly shortsighted, and I was not deterred for a nanosecond. And I- Chris Erwin:Yeah, let's focus on that for a second. So, not deterred. So, other people might hear that feedback, get really frustrated, but then just say, "Okay, I've been told to stay in my lane, this is what I'm going to do." But you did not react like that. Was it potentially a catalyst for you? Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. No, it absolutely was. So I'm like, "I know how to do this. I see the opportunity here. These people are really creative, they have really large audiences. They've got a really special unique relationship with that audience, and this is something that nobody's doing, so I'm going to do it." And I went up to the business affairs office. I was on the second floor and I said, "Please make me a two-page template that I can repeat and just swap out names, and print out information." They made a two-page deal template for me, and I proceeded to create my own world basically, and owned a division, an army of one, where I would source a deal, secure and negotiate the deal, and close it, and invoice for it, and Fullscreen's 10% would just go to Fullscreen's accounting department. And the sale division didn't like that, but I was providing a service to all the talent that was in the network, that became undeniable. Chris Erwin:Now you're running around as a team of one- Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:... was this exciting for you, while also- Chas Lacaillade:Yeah, absolutely. Chris Erwin:I mean, it must have been awkward at the same time because then within the same walls of the building, there's people frustrated with your behavior, yet you're like, "Wow, I just found this goldmine and I'm going after them." Chas Lacaillade:Yeah, I didn't care about them. You know, they weren't my friends and I wasn't impressed by them professionally. I didn't think that they were good at their jobs. I didn't think they knew their product. To be an effective salesperson you have to know our product, and none of these people watched YouTube, none of them had relationships with the YouTubers that they were tasked with selling. Chris Erwin:Got it. Chas Lacaillade:To work in this space, you have to be able to pick up the phone and call the talent and say, "I've got this opportunity for you, is this exciting to you? How would you integrate this product into your content?" And you have to have a conversation with them. And if you don't any sort of rapport with that talent, then good luck. And so, I had developed a rapport with this talent. I knew how advertising worked. I could speak that language very fluidly, given my experience at the ad agency in Manhattan. I also knew how to deal with talent via my experience at ICM. I knew sales, via my experience at the renewable energy company. Chris Erwin:It's like all this is coming together. Chas Lacaillade:So all these three really separate experiences unified in this really elegant tapestry, that set me apart, made me unique from my peers at Fullscreen, and allowed me to really confidently stake out my claim, and so that's what I did. At this point I'm 32 years old. Had I been 25, I might've been a little bit more intimidated. But because I knew what I was doing, I had a very clear vision for the future and how I was going to use my skillset to drive value and create value for the company, I was able to rebuff all the feeble pleas and objections that were being posed by my peers who were threatened. Chris Erwin:Did this moment feel like a very unique inflection point where all my past career experience, my capabilities, my learnings, my mindset, it's like, "This is happening now in my early 30s." Going back to that identity of "the world is my oyster." Right? Chas Lacaillade:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chris Erwin:It's like what you were thinking when you were in high school in your early days. Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:And did you feel like in this moment it's like, "This is it"? Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. So it did feel like that, and I felt like, "Look, the money's not big now, but everything has to start from somewhere." And also, I was synthesizing all of those biographies I'd read of Sam Walton starting out Walmart with just a Five and Dime store here, or then he built to three "Five and Dime stores in Arkansas and Memphis, and these outposts that were in these rinky-dink towns, but no one else was building there. And what I felt was, I'm building stores where no one else is, and I'm going to get customers that no one else is going to get. And by the time that everybody wakes up, I'm going to have more stores than anyone else. And so I moved very quickly and I thought, "Look, I don't know where this is going to go, but this is something that's valuable, and interesting, and engaging, and I'm developing a reputation internally as somebody who's got a clear point of view." And people are attracted to and drawn to someone with a point of view and an idea on how to create value. Chris Erwin:It's clear that you are no longer at Fullscreen. Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:You now are at a company that you founded, Bottle Rocket Management. Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:When did you found Bottle Rocket? Chas Lacaillade:So AT&T bought Fullscreen in 2015, and at that point Fullscreen was not intent on being in the talent representation business and I was. And I had my Jerry Maguire moment where I called all my clients and said, "Am I your manager? Am I your manager? And if so, this is my new endeavor, I'm going out on my own." Chris Erwin:Was that scary to do that? Chas Lacaillade:It was terrifying. I took out a $5,000 loan from Chase Bank, and there was no interest for the first 18 months. Chris Erwin:And what was that loan for? Chas Lacaillade:To live. So- Chris Erwin:Pay rent, food- Chas Lacaillade:Pay rent, my rent was $1,200 a month, so I figured I could get by for a quarter, three months- Chris Erwin:Wow. Chas Lacaillade:... if I just had one meal a day, didn't do anything on the weekend, no bars or entertainment, or movies. Basically, ate one meal a day, and paid my internet bill, and paid my rent, I could get by for three months. Chris Erwin:So this is extreme focus. Chas Lacaillade:Yep. Chris Erwin:Your job during these three months is, I got basic financing in place and now I'm going to build a company, and it's going to win. And you have your horse blinders on? Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Chris Erwin:What happens over those three months? Chas Lacaillade:And so, I was able to pay the $5,000 back within 45 days- Chris Erwin:Wow. Chas Lacaillade:... and had no debt, and I'd closed enough deals that I knew I was going to make enough money to live in that year, in 2015. So, Bottle Rocket started March 1st, 2015 and all the clients I represented at Fullscreen formally, decided that they wanted to line up with me and I built a business. So from a one-bedroom apartment in Venice, I just sat there and called people all day. Chris Erwin:You knew 45 days in, you had something? Chas Lacaillade:Yes. Chris Erwin:You look at your business now, the business that you have from a revenue point of view, and volume point of view, is a lot larger than a lot of other next-gen management companies. What was that next inflection point where you're like, "Okay, I don't just have something here, I have something really special"? Chas Lacaillade:I think it's when I started needing to bring on staff. You know, I'd been doing everything by myself. Chris Erwin:And when was that? Chas Lacaillade:It was 2017, and now we've got a staff of five, including myself. You know, what I'm really thrilled about it how busy everybody is, and how the environment feels really entrepreneurial, really light. I feel like if you have a sense of lightness within the company, and joy, that people are going to put forth discretionary effort, they're going to give you that extra ... whether it's talent, or whether it's the buyer, or whether it's your own colleague, if they know that you're coming from a place of reason and you're a good person, you're just going to get more out of everything and everybody. Now, there's a lot of challenging encounters, there's times when points of view collide and you still have to be firm, and you have to have faith that your position is legitimate. And perhaps somebody wants something from you or from your client that is unreasonable, that's where the challenge is. How do I create customer delight and value for this person, whilst still maintaining my position? Chris Erwin:As you think about how you energize in your business, and you continually refine your leadership and your management philosophy, how do you do that? Is it through reading? Do you have like a mastermind's group? How do you come into your business every day and push yourself to be better for your clients? Chas Lacaillade:Personally for myself, you've got to nurse your mind with new points of view, and you've got to read, and you've got to stay current. Personally, I read the Wall Street Journal, which is not exactly cutting-edge technique. Chris Erwin:While on the bike at the Bay Club? Chas Lacaillade:Yep. Yep, I read the Wall Street Journal every day. One of my professors at USC Business School said, "If you want to be smarter, read The Wall Street Journal every day." Very simple piece of advice and I took it to heart, and I feel like it's very helpful. You know, basically I want to get information from places that aren't the internet. You're definitely a more well-rounded individual if you're not just sighting whatever was on Apple News that day. So I read the newspaper every day. I read fiction and nonfiction. You've got to keep your vocabulary relevant and sharp, and your mind dynamic, and reading different pieces of information and literature, it helps you do that. Because so much of being interesting to others, is being interested in what other people are doing and how the world's working. And so, if I'm interesting to my peers and people that I want to do business with, then that's already a head start in the right direction. And so, that's how I keep it fresh. Chris Erwin:You raise a good point because if you're just reading the same industry pubs that everyone's reading, which it's good to be current, but if you're just in Variety, and Hollywood Reporter, and Tubefilter all day, you're not giving your mind space to breathe. And so when you say, "Mind, body, spirits," so it's out of being an avid reader, how do you also energize your body and your spirit? Chas Lacaillade:You know, sometimes I surf, as you know. I play soccer at a rec sports league. I play basketball with some friends occasionally. I'm very active, it's just important to me to be out there moving. And the spirit and the body are very closely linked, so I feel like if I'm running or playing a sport, then my spirit is being nourished. Chris Erwin:I'm not sure if you're going to enjoy me sharing this story, but yes, Chas and I, we have skied together many times at Sundance and Park City. We've also surfed many times here in LA. And I will say, I think the last time that we went and surfed at Malibu at Second Point, Chas was really excited to get in the water, he hadn't been in in a bit. As we're walking to the beach, I just look at his surfboard and I'm like, "Okay, there's normally three fins on a surfboard, but I only see two on yours, Chas. What's going on?" You're like, "Yeah, it's immaterial, don't worry about it." I'm like, "Okay," thinking you need three fins, but all good. Then we get to the beach and Chas says, he's like, "This wetsuit is so uncomfortable, it's so tight in all these weird places. What's going on here?" I'm like, "Is this a new wetsuit? You've had it before, right?" He's like, "Yeah. No, it's the same one, but this is just weird." Chris Erwin:I thought to myself and I was like, "All right, I remember a similar conversation the last time we surfed." And then I look over at Chas, right before I say it, Chas says it, he goes, "I think this wetsuit's on backwards." And so the suit was on backwards, but what I loved was that instead of Chas being like, "Oh, I'm going to go walk back to the car and change it," or, "I have to go get another fin," you were just like, "I'm getting in the water. I'm fine. You know, I don't care what people think, let's go," and we went right into it. And I think that was a great reflection of how you approach life- Chas Lacaillade:Yeah. Chris Erwin:... and business, and friendships. You're just like, "I'm doing what I'm doing, and I'm happy with it-" Chas Lacaillade:The wetsuit- Chris Erwin:... "and I don't care what anyone else thinks." Chas Lacaillade:The wetsuit being on backwards is not going to change the waves. Chris Erwin:Yeah, exactly. Chas Lacaillade:The board's there, the wave's there, I'm here. All the necessary elements for me surfing are present, so ... I was in the water and some dude's like, "Your wetsuit's on backwards." I was like, "I'm clear on that. I know that." I think I spaced out in the moment, I think I was caught up in conversation. Hadn't had my caffeine dose and idiotically put my wetsuit on backwards, but then I was just like, "Ah, you know what?-" Chris Erwin:Maybe it's a reflection- Chas Lacaillade:... "It's not going to slow me down." Chris Erwin:You're so in the moment and you're so present, you didn't even know your wetsuit was on backwards. You know, so maybe that's a good thing, maybe more people need to have that happen to them. All right, so before we get into our rapid fire round, last question on Bottle Rocket. What are some of your 2020 goals for Bottle Rocket and the team? What do you look forward to? Chas Lacaillade:I want to develop relationships with new buyers that we haven't worked with previously, that's really important to me. You've got to keep exploring opportunity with the marketplace and developing new relationships. And then, definitely signing new talent that's exciting and dynamic, and that's going to raise and elevate the perception of Bottle Rocket. And hopefully growing the Bottle Rocket team, so that I continue to have peers that inspire me and feel energized to come to work. Chris Erwin:When we talk about new talent, because we were talking a bit before this, you're not just a digital talent management company, you're next-gen. To prove that point out, you've signed traditional talent, you've signed also writers, you've diversified across your entertainment roster. Which I think is great and it's interesting to see how when you have that diversity of talent, they can work and collaborate with one another- Chas Lacaillade:Right. Chris Erwin:... which really fuels your own internal business. But are there any certain types of talent that you are specifically seeking out in the new year? Chas Lacaillade:What I want to identify and what I'd love to represent, are people with really unique points of view and unique skillsets. YouTube, there's a lot of derivative content on YouTube, and herd mentality is pervasive in all forms and genres of entertainment and media. But when you really strike gold is when you've got that person who galvanizes an audience because of who they are and how they see the world, and how they interact with the world. The Will Smith's of the world, ELiza Koshy, Ellen DeGeneres, Oprah. And so you want to find that person or people who have a magnetism about them that's undeniable. Chris Erwin:Well, we wish you a very prosperous 2020. Chas Lacaillade:Thank you. Thank you. Chris Erwin:So, we'll go into the closing rapid fire questions, how's that sound? Chas Lacaillade:Great. Chris Erwin:All right. So these can be just quick, two to three sentence answers. If you want to be even more brief, we're open to that. Looking back on your career, what would you say your single proudest moment and accomplishment is to date? Chas Lacaillade:The day I started Bottle Rocket Management, March 1st, 2015. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do less and more of in 2020? Let's start with less. Chas Lacaillade:Worry. Worry, there's no form of progress when you're contemplating what's going to go wrong, or whatever may happen will adversely affect you. You've just got to believe. Chris Erwin:Rapid fire follow-up to that, what do you worry about the most? Chas Lacaillade:Delivering for my clients and my team. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do more of in 2020? Chas Lacaillade:Well, I definitely want my team to feel inspired and really excited to be at Bottle Rocket. And I want them to have personal wins, so that they feel like it's not just a company where they work for me, it's where they work for themselves and they're developing their own reputations. Chris Erwin:Entrepreneurial advice. What one to two personal characteristics do you think have primarily driven your success? Chas Lacaillade:Say, persistence. Persistence is definitely the main identifiable characteristic that's helped me. And humility, just accepting that you're going to have to prove yourself and people aren't going to hand you the biggest, juiciest opportunities off the bat. And so, you have to be humble and prove yourself. Chris Erwin:We talk about persistence a lot, where there's ebbs and flows in the business cycles and your own individual business, and with your team, but if you just are always showing up everyday, there are going to be these incredible moments for you to take advantage of. But if you're not showing up, it's not going to happen. Last few questions here. How do you best take advantage of things you can't control? Chas Lacaillade:I think you've just got to be clear. You've just got to figure out what your position is and how you see things. Articulate that to whomever is necessary, and be open-minded. Chris Erwin:Okay, last two. Quick shot advice for media professionals going into 2020? Chas Lacaillade:Try to schedule as many meetings with people that you're curious about, and want to meet and want to know, and sit down with them wherever they are, and make yourself available. Chris Erwin:Last question. How can people get in contact with you, Chas, the CEO and founder of Bottle Rocket Management? Chas Lacaillade:My email address is chas@bottlerocketmanagement.com, spelled out. Chris Erwin:We'll also include that in the show notes. Chas Lacaillade:Excellent. Chris Erwin:Well, this has been a delight, Chas. Great to have you in today. Chas Lacaillade:Thank you. Chris Erwin:See you around at the next surf sess. Chas Lacaillade:Right on. Chris Erwin:Wow, I really enjoyed that conversation with Chas. Like I said in the beginning, he is a total straight shooter and tells you like it is, and that really came across. I don't know if you guys felt this, but when he started talking about founding Bottle Rocket and leaving Fullscreen, in the room you could see and you could feel his energy just ramping. It was exciting. I thought that was a pretty special moment in our conversation. The excitement of an entrepreneur. So a few quick things on your radar, our next podcast will feature Christian Baesler, the President of Complex Media. He is a young media savant, with a very impressive career track record. Fun facts about Christian, he was born east of the Berlin Wall, and in the same week that the week came down. Pretty incredible. And when he was right out of college at a big international media company, he was tasked with overseeing a digital division, and they needed a digital website network to be built, Christian just built it himself. Impressive stuff. Chris Erwin:Second thing on your radar, listeners, is that our company RockWater, will be hosting a live stream media and selling conference in 2021. Likely in the first quarter in March, we don't know exactly what it's going to look like yet, but we will bring together great speakers, good programming, and we're looking for people who want to get involved. So if you're interested, you can email us at TCUpod@wearerockwater.com. Stay tuned for that. All right, that's it. Thanks all for listening. Chris Erwin:The Come Up is written and hosted by me, Chris Erwin, and is a production of RockWater Industries. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcast. And remember to subscribe, wherever you listen to our show. And if you really dig us, feel free to forward The Come Up to a friend. You can sign up for our company newsletter at wearerockwater.com/newsletter. And you can follow us on Twitter @TCUpod. The Come Up is engineered by Daniel Tureck. Music is by Devon Bryant. Logo and branding is by Kevin Zazzali. And special thanks to Andrew Cohen and Sean Diep from the RockWater team.

Joy Carrera is the founder of Carreradigital.io and the host of Basic Brown Nerds.  She is a  Digital Operations & Business Intelligence Strategist specializing in SaaS, MCNs, and Impact Driven Initiatives.  Learn about how she decided to launch her business and what led her to use tech to empower others. https://buildwithjoy.co/ https://www.basicbrownnerds.com/

Phil Ranta is the COO at cloud based global-scale Social & Commerce platform Wormhole Labs. Phil is a pioneer of the digital media revolution, working as a pre-YouTube professional web video producer in 2005, video content app creator before the smartphone revolution in 2007, an early exec in the MCN (Multi-Channel Network) boom with two successful exits, and as the Head of Creators at Mobcrush, a technology and entertainment company at the epicenter of mobile gaming, live streaming and the creator-driven media revolution. Previously, Phil was the Head of Gaming Creators at Facebook and the COO of Studio71, one of the world's largest MCNs, growing the network from 1 billion to over 8 billion monthly views in 3 years with over 1,000 creators. Before Studio71, Phil joined Fullscreen as the Head of Channel Partnerships as the 9th employee, completing his tenure as the VP of Networks. He grew the network to the largest MCN in the world (on comScore) in less than 1 year. He was the recipient of Fullscreen's first "Founders Award" for his role in building the industry-leading company. As the 9th employee, he's also our 9th guest on the podcast. Instagram: @BattleApproved and @PhilRanta Linkedin: @BattleApproved, @CJamesMedia and @PhilRanta Twitter: @BattleApproved and @PhilRanta This episode of the podcast is brought to you by GrizzlyCoolers.com Get 25% Off almost everything Grizzly by using the coupon code: battle25 --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/battleapproved/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/battleapproved/support

In this week’s episode of Blogosphere: Serious Influence, Alice Audley (Blogosphere’s founder) speaks to influencer Hannah Witton, who is a YouTuber, Podcaster and Author. Hannah joined YouTube in 2009 and has first-hand experience of working with MCNs, management and brands. She recently launched an event called Creator Table Talks, where influencers can meet and candidly discuss the business side of the industry.

What is an MCN, or ‘Multi-Channel Network’? Should a small creator work with one to establish a presence? Should larger YouTube channels stay tied to them as they pick up more sponsorship and brand deals?When we get to learn from other people's experiences, their mistakes, and the winning strategies they have implemented in the past that just helps us grow and hopefully, avoid the same pitfalls. In this week’s episode, we talk to Shannon Morse, an awesome creator who has worked with MCNs. In this week’s Tubetalk you will learn:- The pros and cons of working with an MCN - How to understand the different contracts involved in signing up with one- The vital importance of negotiation- How to understand your YouTube channel’s worth- How to confirm the validity and credibility of an MCNFor the full show notes, head over to https://vidiq.com/blog/post/working-with-mcn-tubetalk-198/ Don't forget to leave a review and subscribe in your favorite podcast app!Any questions or comments? feel free to email me Liron@vidIQ.com

Today we’re talking all about KOCs or key opinion consumers with my guest, Ray Veras, co-founder of the KOC marketing platform Pingjia Daren (评价达人). This episode will give you an overview of the topic: who are KOCs, how are they different than KOLs, why has KOC marketing become so popular, and what kind of goals and ROI expectations brands should have when running KOC campaigns. At the end we also chat a bit about a great report that Pingjia Daren put out ahead of 11.11 where they surveyed over 6,700 KOCs and Ray shared some of the key findings from the report. Read the report: 11.11 China female consumers’ shopping plan survey 2019 To learn more about influencer marketing in China, sign up for our newsletter: The China Influencer Update!   Notes: Ray’s background: Ray has been involved in KOC marketing for 5 years, before the term existed. His professional background was in consumer research and back in 2014 was surprised by how few brands were using word of mouth (WOM) marketing in China What are KOCs? KOCs are ordinary everyday consumers who enjoy sharing their experiences on social media. Generally, they are knowledgeable on certain topics. May only have an audience of several hundred to a few thousand followers therefore have a much closer relationship with them. He feels one of the biggest differences between KOLs and KOCs is that KOC content is generally not financially motivated. Most of the time, at least with their collaborations, KOCs are just being gifted product and product samples. Very important when gifting KOCs that the product fits the KOC’s lifestyle and is relevant, not just randomly gifted I asked “Is there a lot of churn? Do a lot of KOCs become KOLs?” Yes, this year especially. Now that KOC marketing has become popular brands have started paying them and MCNs have been scooping them up to see if they can train them to become larger KOLs What is Pingjia Daren? It is a product recommendation community (somewhat similar to Xiaohongshu). Users answer a questionnaire when then sign up to share their interests and product preferences, then when there is a campaign, PJ Daren will invite a select group of users to receive free product. They are then encouraged to review the products on their social accounts, brands will indicate preferred platforms. Difficult for brands to do KOC marketing without the help of a platform. To engage with thousands of consumers at one requires a system, you need tech to track performance. Why has KOC marketing taken off this year? Several factors: Chinese consumers are becoming more sophisticated, they have a lot of options to avoid traditional advertising. Consumer are now very aware that KOLs are promoting products because they are being paid to. He feels they are craving more content that is not commercially influenced. Social media landscape is becoming more fragmented. Consumers have more options. Adds complexity for brand side to determine which platforms to leverage. Harder for them to keep messages consistent, also platforms each have their own rules and best practices. Consumers’ attention span decreasing therefore less attention on marketing campaigns. Last few years seen a decrease in performance of KOLs in China yet costs have increased and become unbearable for many brands. Also cases of KOLs inflating performance, fraud. What goals should brands have when running a KOC campaign? driving advocacy amplifying other campaigns the brand may be running at the time lifting incremental sales. Need to think about mid-term results, not short term. KOC marketing is about building brand equity. ROI - $1-4 per dollar invested in a campaign Think mid to long term – short terms successes aren’t what they seem With e-commerce live streaming most cases where you hear crazy sales results, the brand is paying for the hype, they aren’t making a profit, the products are heavily discounted, tied to aggressive commissions, short term burst of exposure, not a long lasting effect which is what KOCs produce Great case study of building brand equity through KOCs is Perfect Diary. They have been using KOCs, building communities, using private traffic for several years and that’s paying off now Pingjia Daren reports: One that came out ahead of 11.11, was a survey of over 6,700 Chinese female KOCs, evaluated their purchase intent, Key insight - consumers in 3rd tier cities and below are taking the lead with consumption growth in China. Willing to spend more than consumers in 1st and 2nd tier cities Did follow up research – found out they have a lower cost of living, which means they have greater disposable income. Cost of housing really affecting 1st and 2nd tier city consumers. Key drivers of product choice – in 1st and 2nd tier cities discounts are a big driver, but for 3rd tier cities and below, the impact was much lower, they are more focused on value and quality, not paying as much attention as we think on cheap products   Guest: Ray Veras Website: https://pjdaren.com/ PJ Daren LinkedIn Ray’s Linkedin Host: Lauren Hallanan Website: www.chinainfluencermarketing.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauren-hallanan/ WeChat: H1212118514 Check out my book: Digital China: Working with Bloggers, Influencers and KOLs ------- Thanks to our sponsors PARKLU: www.parklu.com and Chatly: www.chatly.com For additional information and show notes head over to www.chinainfluencermarketing.com If you like this podcast and know someone who might find it interesting, please share! 

TechBuzz China is back from China! We are happy to say that the week of back-to-back meetings we had in our first-ever Investor Trip was a great success. We were able to visit a host of companies we've previously covered on the podcast, like Ximalaya, Xiaohongshu, Ruhan, Xiaomi, China Renaissance, Tiger Brokers, and more, as well as new ones such as Ctrip, Mogujie, Qutoutiao, and Bilibili, which we hope to talk about in more detail soon. Thank you to everyone who hosted us, and a special thanks to all of our listeners who came out for our happy hours!Episode 54 of TechBuzz China is about the rise of the influencer and idol economies in China, which is a major trend that has created an entirely new ecosystem online. Indeed, one-third of China's total retail sales are taking place online, and its ecommerce platforms are some of the most innovative and advanced in the world. Listen to learn about phenomena such as live-streaming ecommerce (直播电商), multi-channel networks (MCNs), the role of celebrities, and the lengths to which fans in China will go to in order to keep their idols on top. How are these factors influencing the way large Chinese internet companies operate? You can find these stories and more at pandaily.com. If you enjoy our content, please do let us know by leaving us an iTunes review, liking our Facebook page, and tweeting at us! We do truly appreciate your feedback and support. Thank you also to our listeners over at our partner, dealstreetasia.com.We are grateful for our ever-talented producers, Shaw Wan and Kaiser Kuo, and for our intern, Wang Menglu.

TechBuzz China is back from China! We are happy to say that the week of back-to-back meetings we had in our first-ever Investor Trip was a great success. We were able to visit a host of companies we’ve previously covered on the podcast, like Ximalaya, Xiaohongshu, Ruhan, Xiaomi, China Renaissance, Tiger Brokers, and more, as well as new ones such as Ctrip, Mogujie, Qutoutiao, and Bilibili, which we hope to talk about in more detail soon. Thank you to everyone who hosted us, and a special thanks to all of our listeners who came out for our happy hours! Episode 54 of TechBuzz China is about the rise of the influencer and idol economies in China, which is a major trend that has created an entirely new ecosystem online. Indeed, one-third of China’s total retail sales are taking place online, and its ecommerce platforms are some of the most innovative and advanced in the world. Listen to learn about phenomena such as live-streaming ecommerce (直播电商), multi-channel networks (MCNs), the role of celebrities, and the lengths to which fans in China will go to in order to keep their idols on top. How are these factors influencing the way large Chinese internet companies operate?You can find these stories and more at pandaily.com. If you enjoy our content, please do let us know by leaving us an iTunes review, liking our Facebook page, and tweeting at us! We do truly appreciate your feedback and support. Thank you also to our listeners over at our partner, dealstreetasia.com. We are grateful for our ever-talented producers, Shaw Wan and Kaiser Kuo, and for our intern, Wang Menglu.

An open dialogue panel between esports performance sponsorship platform FanAI and executives who will delve into the different aspects of the much-discussed “esports bubble” touching on what business models are working, where there is room for improvement, and how and when to make smart investments in the esports space. FanAI will show how its data can be leveraged as actionable points of conversation around organizations, influencers, MCNs, and sponsorship technology. Speakers: Johannes Waldstein, Founder & CEO, FanAI Travis Mynard, Esports Agent, United Talent Agency --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/officialesportsshow/support

Understanding Influencer Marketing in China with Hillary Han, Director of iResearch Training AcademyKey Opinion Leaders (KOLs)—or "influencers" as they are often called—are a vital part of online marketing today. And their reach is only getting bigger: According to an iResearch report, last year the number of KOLs in China with a fanbase of over 100k was increased by 51%, of which 23% have over 1 million fans. According to Weibo big data, the KOL market is valued at over 100 billion RMB. The KOL industry in China is more advanced than anywhere else in the world, according to today's guest Hillary Han. Hillary runs a KOL training program at iResearch, one of the country's leading market research firms. In today's episode, we're doing a deep dive into the industry, from the basic concepts, like how brands utilize KOL resources, to practical suggestions about KOL marketing on different platforms. Hillary not only has experience working with many KOLs, but also she is KOL herself, so we're thrilled to have her as our guide to this fascinating topic.Timestamps:[01:30] Introducing Hillary Han[02:30] What is iResearch[03:19] What is KOL[04:18] The importance of KOL marketing[05:48] The differences between Chinese KOLs and Western influencers[07:30] Monetizing your presence on social platforms in China[08:58] KOLs signed with MCNs[10:30] China's advantage of understanding the KOL industry and the variety of platforms[14:00] The powerful KOLs in China and how much money they make[16:15] When to use a KOL for your own brand[22:35] How to choose the right KOLMany thanks to our host Ryan Shuken, guest Hillary Han, editors David and Geep, producer Eva Shi, organizer Chinaccelerator, and sponsor People Squared. Make sure to check out our website www.chinaccelerator.comIf you like us, please give us a 5-star review and share with your friends!Follow us on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/the-china-startup-pulse/Email us: team@chinastartuppulse.comMusic Credits: Adam Place founder of NUSIC

Key Opinion Leaders (KOLs)—or "influencers" as they are often called—are a vital part of online marketing today. And their reach is only getting bigger: According to an iResearch report, last year the number of KOLs in China with a fanbase of over 100k was increased by 51%, of which 23% have over 1 million fans. According to Weibo big data, the KOL market is valued at over 100 billion RMB. The KOL industry in China is more advanced than anywhere else in the world, according to today's guest Hillary Han. Hillary runs a KOL training program at iResearch, one of the country's leading market research firms. In today's episode, we're doing a deep dive into the industry, from the basic concepts, like how brands utilize KOL resources, to practical suggestions about KOL marketing on different platforms. Hillary not only has experience working with many KOLs, but also she is KOL herself, so we're thrilled to have her as our guide to this fascinating topic. Timestamps: [01:30] Introducing Hillary Han [02:30] What is iResearch [03:19] What is KOL [04:18] The importance of KOL marketing [05:48] The differences between Chinese KOLs and Western influencers [07:30] Monetizing your presence on social platforms in China [08:58] KOLs signed with MCNs [10:30] China's advantage of understanding the KOL industry and the variety of platforms [13:00] Why there is no Youtube in China [14:00] The powerful KOLs in China and how much money they make [16:15] When to use a KOL for your own brand [22:35] How to choose the right KOL Many thanks to our host Ryan Shuken, guest Hillary Han, editors David and Geep, producer Eva Shi, organizer Chinaccelerator, and sponsor People Squared. Make sure to check out our website www.chinaccelerator.com If you like us, please give us a 5-star review and share with your friends! Follow us on LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/the-china-startup-pulse/ Email us: team@chinastartuppulse.com Music Credits: Adam Place founder of NUSIC (https://nusic.fm/)

Eugene Choi and Allen Lee are the Co-Founders of Collab Asia. Eugene started his career in advertising, later worked at Korean media giant CJ E&M, and then worked on a number of independent projects in the digital media space. Allen, on the other hand, started out in finance and corporate development within the entertainment industry, initially working with more traditional studios before transitioning to digital. In this episode, we examine digital media’s explosive growth in Asia, from emerging markets like China and Indonesia to more established territories like Korea and Japan. We discuss the competitive landscape in APAC after several recent acquisitions, assess the performance of MCNs that have gone public (Brave Bison, UUUM, and Yeah1), and highlight examples of innovation throughout Asia. Finally, Eugene and Allen explain what most Americans misunderstand about Asia and share their takeaways from VidCon 2019. Host: James Creech ABOUT THE SHOW All Things Video is a podcast dedicated to uncovering the past and charting the future of the online video ecosystem. Listen to interviews with founders, executives, and thought leaders from the world’s leading media companies and engage in thought-provoking debates about the issues shaping the next generation of entertainment. From the short-form content revolution to the fragmentation of video viewership in an always-on world, All Things Video reveals the key trends and insights from the world of digital media. Follow All Things Video on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn for new episodes and updates! ABOUT THE HOST James Creech is an entrepreneur focused on technology, online video, and digital media. He is the Co-Founder & CEO of Paladin, the essential influencer marketing platform for media companies, agencies, and brands. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Today we are talking with Jim Louderback, the GM of VidCon. Over the last 5 years Jim has worked with Hank and John Green to build VidCon in to what it is today. Jim has been in online video since the beginning, yet he is still one of the most enthusiastic people in the space. He was previously the CEO of Revision3 and was also with TechTV and editor-in-chief of PC Magazine. In this interview we chat about a number of aspects such as the common traits amongst great Youtube creators and the issues with YouTube and multi channel networks (MCNs)

Last spring, I had Fabian Bern on the podcast to give an overview of Douyin, which, at the time, was still an emerging social media platform in China. A lot has changed since then and I wanted to bring Fabian back on the podcast to bring us up to speed on Douyin, share what has changed over the past year and where does he see the platform going in the future.   We discuss user demographics, new features on the platform, and how content is evolving, specifically the increase in mini-series and vlogs. I also ask him what industries he thinks can benefit the most from Douyin, and whether they should be focusing on using Douyin to raise brand awareness or drive sales.   Over the past year, Douyin has introduced the Starmap KOL marketing platform and encouraged many of its content creators to sign with MCNs, and we talk about how that works and the pros and cons of that system.   ***Upcoming Event **** I will be speaking at the upcoming Marketing 2 China London event in June 5th and 6th. Website: https://marketingtochinaconference.com/ . Hope to see you there! To learn more about influencer marketing in China, sign up for our new newsletter: The China Influencer Update!   Additional Notes: How Douyin has evolved: Userbase – now more than 500 million users 1st tier & 3rd tier cities are two main user groups 1st tier users interested in brands and celebrities 3rd tier city users: Social commerce on Douyin big in those cities Live streams popular among 3rd tier cities Strategic partnerships – CNY gala   New features since last Spring: Users can post photos too (as opposed to just video) Tmall & JD testing native stores Wallets, red packets Improved AR filters Duoshan messaging app integrated with Douyin In-video shopping Mini-programs, most popular so far are mini- games Stories feature (seems to still be in Beta)    Shift in Content: Short web series Micro vlogging popular, real and relatable Douyin seems to be shifting to promote more series-type content, which keeps users coming back, and is more sustainable. People get bored of little skit videos after a while.   Brands on Douyin: 150k official brand accounts China government does a great job Local companies generally do much better than foreign ones Foreign companies often use existing content and cut a piece out and put it on Douyin, which really does not work While there are a lot of brands on the platform, most of them aren’t making good enough content for it to organically spread on the platform   Industries most suitable for Douyin: Auto industry has done very well Electronics Web series use Douyin to spread awareness Cosmetics & fashion easiest to drive sales Gaming, F&B growing Education – Douyin now has “child accounts” where parents can filter out content   Thoughts on TikTok: Douyin one year ahead of TikTok Can guess what features will come soon to TikTok Content is a bit different with localization, create virality in country itself; Indonesia good example Thinks TikTok will generally follow Douyin’s path Young audience and people struggle to learn how to use it   KOL marketing on Douyin: MCNs and the Starmap platform Douyin KOLs getting more mature Many KOLs started their own MCNs and they are doing well because they understand the platform Platform pays more attention to users with 500K+ fans; smaller accounts less regulated Still a couple independent KOLs but don’t get much support from the platform A cut of the KOL fee will go to the MCN and Douyin price = 20-30 RMB/1000 fans   Vlogging: Videos can now be up to 60 seconds for all users Recent campaigns to promote vlogging; Fabian believes that since they specifically used the word vlog means they are putting resources behind it   Opportunity for music industry: More opportunities for music labels, need new songs, especially music + vlogs, movie soundtracks Releasing new music through Douyin   Douyin Vloggers he Recommends: Tuoluoyi – pilot who documents his trips Itsrae – travel vlogs   Guest: Fabian Bern Website: https://uplab.asia/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fabianbern/   Host: Lauren Hallanan Website: www.chinainfluencermarketing.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lauren-hallanan/ WeChat: H1212118514   Check out my book: Digital China: Working with Bloggers, Influencers and KOLs   ------- Thanks to our sponsors PARKLU: www.parklu.com and The Meet Group www.themeetgroup.com/blog    For additional information and show notes head over to www.chinainfluencermarketing.com   If you like this podcast and know someone who might find it interesting, please share! 

Today we do a deep-dive into the world of YouTube Multi-Channel-Networks (MCNs), with the creators and stars of the popular channel, "The Warp Zone". From the early YouTube days at Maker Studios to the fall of Defy Media, our guests had a front-row seat to the rise and fall and rise, again, of MCNs. A big thanks to Michael Schroeder, Brian Fisher, and Ryan Tellez of The Warp Zone for joining us in the studio. Make sure you check out their YouTube channel at: www.youtube.com/TheWarpZone To submit your questions/feedback, email us at: podcast@nikki.limo To call in with questions/feedback, leave us a voicemail at: (765) 734-0840 Nikki's Jewelry Line: http://ok1984.com/collections/nikki-limo To watch more Nikki on YouTube:  http://www.youtube.com/nikkilimo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Josh Swartz is the COO of Popdog, an esports technology and services company. Josh started his career as General Counsel of iFilm and later served as COO of Wasserman, President of Relativity Sports, and Managing Partner of Diamond Ridge Ventures. Most recently, Josh co-founded Catalyst Sports & Media, which joined the Popdog family in December 2018. In this episode, Josh and I discuss the increasing competition for esports player representation from both established talent management firms and new entrants. We also examine the differences between traditional sports and professional gaming, and Josh argues that esports teams are not analogous to pro sports franchises but rather more like talent agencies and multi-channel networks (MCNs). Finally, Josh expresses skepticism about venture capital investments in esports teams and predicts a market correction as a result of inflated valuations. Host: James Creech ABOUT THE SHOW All Things Video is a podcast dedicated to uncovering the past and charting the future of the online video ecosystem. Listen to interviews with founders, executives, and thought leaders from the world’s leading media companies and engage in thought-provoking debates about the issues shaping the next generation of entertainment. From the short-form content revolution to the fragmentation of video viewership in an always-on world, All Things Video reveals the key trends and insights from the world of digital media. Follow All Things Video on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn for new episodes and updates! ABOUT THE HOST James Creech is an entrepreneur focused on technology, online video, and digital media. He is the Co-Founder & CEO of Paladin, the essential influencer marketing platform for media companies, agencies, and brands. OUR SPONSOR This episode is brought to you by TubeBuddy, the complete toolkit for YouTube channel management. This power-packed browser extension helps with everything from bulk metadata edits and trending keyword suggestions to thumbnail optimization, fan engagement tools, and so much more. Visit TubeBuddy.com to meet your new best friend on YouTube. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Respawn’s Apex Legends, Kingdom Hearts III final takes, Shane's impressions of Anthem, a trio of Nintendo topics, Quantic Dream’s defection, PA’s “sin tax,” the danger of MCNs, and more!

Drake Rehfeld is the CEO of Demeanor, a platform that helps social influencers create and sell products to their fans. Prior to Demeanor, Drake worked in research engineering at Snapchat and then served as Head of Engineering at Team 10. In this episode, we discuss alternative monetization opportunities for influencers. Drake encourages creators to move beyond advertising and merchandise sales to build lasting businesses that align with their personal brands. He shares his experience building products for influencers that launch with built-in audience and distribution, so the primary challenge becomes user retention and monetization. We also touch on the YouTube Rewind 2018 controversy, CGI influencers, and Quibi’s prospects for success. Host: James Creech ABOUT THE SHOW All Things Video is a podcast dedicated to uncovering the past and charting the future of the online video ecosystem. Listen to interviews with founders, executives, and thought leaders from the world’s leading video networks and engage in thought-provoking debates about the key issues shaping the next generation of entertainment. From the short-form content revolution to the rise of multi-channel networks (MCNs) and the fragmentation of video viewership in an always-on world, All Things Video reveals the key trends and insights from the world of digital video. Follow All Things Video on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn for new episodes and updates! ABOUT THE HOST James Creech is an entrepreneur focused on technology, online video, and digital media. He is the Co-Founder & CEO of Paladin, the essential influencer marketing platform for media companies, agencies, and brands. OUR SPONSOR This episode is brought to you by TubeBuddy, the complete toolkit for YouTube channel management. This power-packed browser extension helps with everything from bulk metadata edits and trending keyword suggestions to thumbnail optimization, fan engagement tools, and so much more. Visit TubeBuddy.com to meet your new best friend on YouTube. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Ed Laczynski is the CEO of Zype, a B2B technology company that enables OTT video distribution for media companies. Prior to Zype, Ed served as SVP Cloud Services at Datapipe and then CEO of Clearlogin. Earlier in his career, he worked as a software engineer in the finance and advertising industries before launching his first startup, a tech consulting firm called Ltech. In this episode, we explore everything related to Over The Top (OTT) video distribution. This technological shift is fundamentally changing the way consumers watch video from traditional broadcast and cable to Internet-delivered content. Ed explains the different business models for OTT video, from SVOD for serialized content with loyal audiences to TVOD for niche content and AVOD for mass-market audiences. We also consider the economic and strategic imperatives for entertainment brands to build their own service versus licensing content to a distributor like Netflix, Hulu, or Amazon. And finally, we debate OTT video’s greatest challenges: content discovery, fierce competition for audience, and monetization. Host: James Creech ABOUT THE SHOW All Things Video is a podcast dedicated to uncovering the past and charting the future of the online video ecosystem. Listen to interviews with founders, executives, and thought leaders from the world’s leading video networks and engage in thought-provoking debates about the key issues shaping the next generation of entertainment. From the short-form content revolution to the rise of multi-channel networks (MCNs) and the fragmentation of video viewership in an always-on world, All Things Video reveals the key trends and insights from the world of digital video. Follow All Things Video on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn for new episodes and updates! ABOUT THE HOST James Creech is an entrepreneur focused on technology, online video, and digital media. He is the Co-Founder & CEO of Paladin, the essential influencer marketing platform for media companies, agencies, and brands. OUR SPONSOR This episode is brought to you by Shareability, a social content company that makes videos people actually want to watch. They work with brands and influencers to create content that explodes across the web through social sharing and organic discovery. For years, Shareability has been topping the charts with crowd captivating videos for brands like Pepsi, Pizza Hut, Sony Entertainment, and Cristiano Ronaldo’s ROC, delivering over 1B views, 5M shares, and 50,000 press mentions. Check out some examples of their work on shareability.com. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Bill Carmody is the CEO of Trepoint, a marketing agency that provides performance-focused services to challenger brands. Bill has spent his entire career in the agency world, from early positions at Modem Media, Ogilvy & Mather, and Marden-Kane to his first entrepreneurial endeavor as Co-Founder & CMO of the Seismicom agency. Bill is also an accomplished author, public speaker, and leadership coach. He’s generously offered to provide All Things Video listeners with a free one-hour coaching session, available on his website: http://billcarmody.com/atv In this episode, we discuss how to measure the ROI of social media, and Bill shares some useful benchmarks for social influencers’ audience and engagement rates. We also consider the longtail value of influencer marketing campaigns based on the value of permanent media placements. Finally, Bill offers his advice on how to differentiate as a services business and encourages entrepreneurs to consider their “minimum viable audience” in addition to developing a minimum viable product. Host: James Creech ABOUT THE SHOW All Things Video is a podcast dedicated to uncovering the past and charting the future of the online video ecosystem. Listen to interviews with founders, executives, and thought leaders from the world’s leading video networks and engage in thought-provoking debates about the key issues shaping the next generation of entertainment. From the short-form content revolution to the rise of multi-channel networks (MCNs) and the fragmentation of video viewership in an always-on world, All Things Video reveals the key trends and insights from the world of digital video. Follow All Things Video on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn for new episodes and updates! ABOUT THE HOST James Creech is an entrepreneur focused on technology, online video, and digital media. He is the Co-Founder & CEO of Paladin, the essential influencer marketing platform for media companies, agencies, and brands. OUR SPONSOR This episode is brought to you by Toonstar, an animation tech startup that produces snackable, interactive content experiences for mobile audiences. To learn more, visit toonstar.com or download the app. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

Bob Moczydlowsky is the Managing Director of Techstars Music, a startup accelerator that invests in early stage music companies. Prior to Techstars, Bob oversaw music information at Yahoo!, then joined Topspin for 5+ years until its acquisition by Beats by Dre, and most recently led U.S. music partnerships at Twitter. In this episode, we discuss Myspace’s impact on the importance of social media for musicians, the voice technology revolution, and the future evolution of music streaming services. We also consider how social media platforms can offer deeper engagement opportunities for superfans without disrupting the user experience. And finally, Bob shares his passion for basketball culture, obscure taste in music, and excitement for content experiences to become more personalized and interactive in the future. Host: James Creech ABOUT THE SHOW All Things Video is a podcast dedicated to uncovering the past and charting the future of the online video ecosystem. Listen to interviews with founders, executives, and thought leaders from the world’s leading video networks and engage in thought-provoking debates about the key issues shaping the next generation of entertainment. From the short-form content revolution to the rise of multi-channel networks (MCNs) and the fragmentation of video viewership in an always-on world, All Things Video reveals the key trends and insights from the world of digital video. Follow All Things Video on Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn for new episodes and updates! ABOUT THE HOST James Creech is an entrepreneur focused on technology, online video, and digital media. He is the Co-Founder & CEO of Paladin, the essential influencer marketing platform for media companies, agencies, and brands. OUR SPONSOR This episode is brought to you by Toonstar, an animation tech startup that produces snackable, interactive content experiences for mobile audiences. To learn more, visit toonstar.com or download the app. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app

In this episode we talk about how MCNs are all rip offs and everyone's favorite anime is probably shit

This week Jimmy Diresta, Bob Clagett and David Picciuto talk about MCNs, channel growth and planking.

Anthony speaks with Ethan and Hila of H3h3productions and FrankJavCee about YouTube's strike system, copyright in the Internet age, and predatory MCNs signing unaware content creators.

Adam's guest is Chris Erwin, Head of Operations for Big Frame. The company, which was acquired this year by DreamWorks, is often called a multichannel network, or MCN, while Chris describes Big Frame as, "a new-era entertainment company for teens and millennials.” Adam asks Chris to explain more about what MCNs and Big Frame do, especially with regard to developing and managing the careers of digital-first creators, like YouTube stars Ingrid Nilsen, Tyler Oakley and Amanda Steele. Since Earwolf and Midroll Media are digital-first media companies, as well, Adam and Chris talk about the similarities between their businesses, and how they make money for talent. Finally, they discuss what it's like to work in entertainment tech and in the Silicon Beach of Los Angeles.