Podcast appearances and mentions of adam sachs

In this episode of the ATA Podcast, Adam Sachs connects with Eve Bodeux and Jamie Hartz to explore ATA's newly published Guide to Buying Translation Services and Guide to Buying Interpreting Services. Whether you are seeking professional language services or are a practicing translator, interpreter, or agency, these guides are invaluable reference tools to show you what working with a language service provider looks like and how to streamline every aspect of the process.   Tune in as Eve and Jamie walk us through what it was like to put these guides together and what information is at your disposal to optimize your endeavors. Are you new to interpreting and trying to get a sense of which official credentials will be valuable? Are you looking to hire a translator for a special project and want to know what kind of factors to consider to find the best fit? For providers and end users alike, this episode and these guides are a great way to map what your partnership should look like!     Show Notes: ATA66 Hotel Information: https://www.atanet.org/ata66/hotel/ ATA's Language Services Guides: https://www.atanet.org/client-assistance/buying-language-services/ Find a Language Professional: https://www.atanet.org/directory/ ATA Compass Blog: https://www.atanet.org/news/the-ata-compass/ Guide to ATA Certification: https://www.atanet.org/certification/guide-to-ata-certification/ Credentialed Interpreter Designation: https://www.atanet.org/member-center/credentialed-interpreter-designation/   Join ATA: https://www.atanet.org/member-center/join-ata/ The ATA Podcast Archive: https://www.atanet.org/news/the-ata-podcast/ ATA Events Calendar: https://www.atanet.org/ata-events/ ATA Socials: https://linkin.bio/americantranslatorsassn    Please send comments, questions, or requests about this podcast to podcast@atanet.org. Thank you for listening!   Audio Production: Derek Platts | Technical Support: Trenton Morgan, Teresa Kelly 

Conan is joined by Sona, head writer Mike Sweeney, and executive producer Adam Sachs to recap Conan's Mark Twain Prize for American Humor acceptance ceremony. Get access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/conan.

In this new episode of the Democracy that Delivers podcast, Adam Sachs, Program Manager for the Center for Digital Economy and Governance (CDEG), discusses the results of a recent study characterizing Colombian small- and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs) and their levels of digital adoption with Luz Stella Gómez, Manager of Financing and Technological Capabilities at iNNpulsa Colombia, and Pablo Lemoine, President of the Centro Nacional de Consultoría. This survey was conducted with input from 4,000 companies throughout Colombia, including those in regions most affected by conflict, as well as women-led and LGBTQ+-led enterprises. The study was a partnership between CIPE, iNNpulsa Colombia—the innovation and entrepreneurship agency of the Colombian government—and the Centro Nacional de Consultoría, one of Colombia's most prestigious and recognized surveying think tanks, which has worked with numerous companies and the national government. In collaboration with iNNpulsa, they also conducted the first version of the Digital Adoption Study in 2017. Click here to view the results of the survey: https://www.cipe.org/resources/characterization-of-smes-in-colombia-and-their-digital-adoption/  

Adam Sachs, director of Silversea's S.A.L.T. (Sea and Land Taste) program, talks with Alan Fine of Insider Travel Report about their experiences visiting a farm in Crete on Silver Moon and a nobleman's home in Sintra, Portugal on Silver Ray's inaugural. Sachs compares these events and the ships to illustrate the evolution of the S.A.L.T. program, which continues to focus on local culinary immersion. For more information, visit www.MySilverSea.com and www.Silversea.com. If interested, the original video of this podcast can be found on the Insider Travel Report Youtube channel or by searching for the podcast's title on Youtube.

Adam Sachs, an award-winning culinary journalist and magazine editor, is the brains behind Silversea Cruises' S.A.L.T. (Sea and Land Taste) program. But prior to joining the cruise industry, Sachs graced the masthead of several magazines, from his first gig as a fact-checker for Conde Nast Traveler to his time at GQ and as Editor-in-Chief of Saveur, a food-focused entertainment and culinary travel magazine. Through his written work, he aims to celebrate the culture of the places he's visited — and the people he's met — through the lens of what's on a plate. In this episode of Humans of Travel, the three-time James Beard award-winning writer reflects on his early career as a foodie journalist and some of the most meaningful stories he's written, from an around-the-world trip on a single airline ticket to a New Zealand escapade planned completely by the Kiwis he met along the way. Listeners will also hear Sachs' take on how the food media landscape has changed, and what he predicts for the future of travel and food journalism. And finally, Sachs dives into the ins and outs of Silversea's new S.A.L.T. program, an onboard and onshore deep dive into the culinary culture of a sailing's ports of call. RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE Silversea Cruises' S.A.L.T. Program ABOUT YOUR HOST  Emma Weissmann is the Digital Managing Editor of TravelAge West, a print and online magazine for travel advisors based in the Western U.S. She is also the co-host of Trade Secrets, a podcast created with sister publication Travel Weekly. TravelAge West also produces national trade publications Explorer and Family Getaways, as well as events including the Future Leaders in Travel Retreat, Global Travel Marketplace West, the WAVE Awards gala and the Napa Valley Leadership Forum.  ABOUT THE SHOW  TravelAge West's podcast, “Humans of Travel,” features conversations with exceptional people who have compelling stories to tell. Listeners will hear from the travel industry's notable authorities, high-profile executives, travel advisors and rising stars as they share the experiences — the highs and the lows — that make them human. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Comedian Gary Gulman feels ecstatic about being Conan O'Brien's friend.Gary sits down with Conan to discuss his latest stand-up special Born on 3rd Base, growing up broke and Jewish, attending a live taping of Johnny Carson, and his new memoir Misfit: Growing Up Awkward in the ‘80s. Plus, Adam Sachs helps the chums tone down the obscenities during a State of the Podcast address.For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com.Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: (669) 587-2847.

On this episode of the podcast, we check in with Adam Sachs, cofounder and CEO of Vicarious surgical robots. Adam comes back to the show with an update on the long journey to market for surgical robots. Adam last joined us in Episode 56, back in September 2021 when Vicarious first launched the Vicarious Surgical robot into pilot implementations. The Vicarious Surgical robot utilizes a single port requiring a 1.5 cm incision — smaller than the size of a dime — for the insertion of the camera and two robotic instruments, transporting surgeons to a new world of visibility and maneuverability. To learn more about Vicarious Surgical goto: www.vicarioussurgical.com Also on this episode, cohosts Steve Crowe and Mike Oitzman discuss the recent news from General Motors, owner of Cruise about the future of Cruise robotaxi service, and the other major news about the EU response to the Amazon iRobot proposed merger. If you like the show, please subscribe and tell a friend about it, this helps us grow our audience. Thanks.

Adam Sachs, director of Silversea's S.A.L.T. (Sea Air Land Taste) program, talks with James Shillinglaw of Insider Travel Report about how S.A.L.T. now has more space and more resources onboard the new Silver Nova, with venues designed for the program specifically. There's a dedicated S.A.L.T. kitchen with meals served reflecting the destinations visited by the ship; a S.A.L.T. Bar, with drinks reflecting those destinations; and a S.A.L.T. lab, which offers a cooking school focused on local fare, which doubles as a S.A.L.T. Chef's Table at night offering an elaborate tasting menu. Plus there are S.A.L.T. excursions to wineries, markets and restaurants at most of the destinations visited by the ship. For more information, visit www.silversea.com. If interested, the original video of this podcast can be found on the Insider Travel Report Youtube channel or by searching for the podcast's title on Youtube.

Planning for a vacation or special occasion? Want a break from making dinner? Or maybe you're trying to cook a great meal at home? Eating and drinking makes up the rhythm of our days no matter where we are, and there are plenty of written descriptions across industries to help us eat and drink better and happier. In this episode, we interview ATA member and food and wine translator Adam Sachs about the ins and outs of culinary translation. You'll hear about his lengthy career as a food and beverage professional starting from his early days working in wine country all the way to managing global supply chain integrity for some major players and how he's now applying that knowledge as a language professional. Listen to the full episode today for some chuckles about restaurant menu translation errors!   Show Notes: Society of Wine Educators: https://societyofwineeducators.org/ Wine and Spirits Educational Trust: https://www.wsetglobal.com/  Court of Master Sommeliers: https://www.mastersommeliers.org/ Cicerone Certification Program: https://www.cicerone.org/ American Cheese Society: https://www.cheesesociety.org/  Cider Association: https://ciderassociation.org/ AulaSIC: https://www.aulasic.org/ Lost in Translation? Why Conscientious Menu Language Matters: https://modernrestaurantmanagement.com/lost-in-translation-why-conscientious-menu-language-matters/   Join ATA: https://www.atanet.org/member-center/join-ata/ The ATA Podcast Archive: https://www.atanet.org/news/the-ata-podcast/ ATA Events Calendar: https://www.atanet.org/ata-events/ ATA Socials: https://linkin.bio/americantranslatorsassn  ATA's 64th Annual Conference in Miami: https://www.atanet.org/ata64/   Please send comments, questions, or requests about this podcast to podcast@atanet.org. Thank you for listening!   Audio Production: Derek Platts | Technical Support: Trenton Morgan

https://youtu.be/p6UaNCMVwn0Matt has a fun conversation with Adam Sachs, the CEO and co-founder of Vicarious Surgical, who is developing a tiny, surgical robot that could radically change how surgery is performed. YouTube version of the podcast: https://www.youtube.com/stilltbdpodcastGet in touch: https://undecidedmf.com/podcast-feedbackSupport the show: https://pod.fan/still-to-be-determinedFollow us on Twitter: @stilltbdfm @byseanferrell @mattferrell or @undecidedmfUndecided with Matt Ferrell: https://www.youtube.com/undecidedmf ★ Support this podcast ★

Vicarious Surgical aims to disrupt the surgical robotic market by streamlining its robotic system to provide the necessary tools for a range of medical procedures, all within a single incision that is less than two centimeters, Cofounder and CEO Adam Sachs explains to Bloomberg Intelligence. In this Vanguards of Health Care podcast episode, Sachs sits down with BI analyst Matt Henriksson for an in-depth interview to discuss recent developments in robotic surgery, the company's upcoming US launch and the Hollywood classic film Fantastic Voyage.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Billie Eilish and FINNEAS feel really excited and dubious, respectively, about being Conan O'Brien's friends. Billie and FINNEAS sit down with Conan to discuss skyrocketing to worldwide fame at an early age, growing up seeing themselves all over the internet, favorite instruments, and their documentary Billie Eilish: The World's a Little Blurry. Later, Adam Sachs stops by to drop some info about Gourley's new high-concept podcast.

In the third episode of the “Innovations in Surgery” series, Behind the Knife's surgery education fellow, Dan Scheese, sits down with Adam Sachs and Dr. Igor Belyansky to discuss the current state and future of surgical robotics. They discuss the start up of Vicarious Surgical and how they are working to improve the current state of surgical robotics with their innovative ideas.  Link for the Vicarious Surgical website which includes a short video demonstration of their single port design: https://www. vicarioussurgical.com/ Adam Sachs is the CEO and Co-founder of Vicarious surgical, a surgical robotics company founded in 2014. As an MIT trained roboticist, Adam has combined his passion for robots with this passion for helping patients and enhancing the work environment for surgeons through the development of proprietary surgical robotics.  Dr. Igor Belyanksy, an internationally-recognized expert in the field of abdominal wall reconstruction and complex laparoscopic and robotic hernia repair. Dr. Belyansky has earned his medical degree from Virginia Commonwealth University, completed his residency at MedStar Union Memorial Hospital, and completed a minimally invasive fellowship at Carolinas Medical Center. Dr. Belyanksy is currently the Medical Director of Anne Arundel Medical Center in Annapolis Maryland. Please visit https://behindtheknife.org to access other high-yield surgical education podcasts, videos and more.   If you liked this episode, check out other Innovations in Surgery episodes here: https://behindtheknife.org/podcast-series/innovations-in-surgery/

ADAM SACHS, Saveur Magazines Editor-In-Chief savors Summer with Blueberry Barbecued Chicken, Paella and Pie. SUSAN VOLLAND talks Dressings and Vinaigrettes from her cookbook Mastering Sauces LISA LYNN, Fitness Expert, increases our energy and cures fatigue

CHEF MARK ROSATI of Shake Shack shares their cheeseburger secrets, ADAM SACHS, Editor In Chief of Saveur Magazine, takes us on a culinary tour and will dish on GAZPACHO the beauty of cold soup.

Rainer Heufers, Executive Director of the Center for Indonesian Policy Studies (CIPS) joins Adam Sachs, Program Officer for CIPE's Global Programs team to discuss digital governance and how to inform better policies through the T20 process. Against the backdrop of Indonesia's presidency of the G20, CIPE supported CIPS as it served as a co-chair for the T20's Taskforce 4: Food Security and Sustainable Agriculture. CIPS also developed two policy papers papers - G20 Framework for Repurposing Agricultural Policy Support to meet Global Climate and Food Security Goals and Regulating Cross-Border Data Flows in the Development Context - which were included in the official G20 repository. In this episode, Heufers and Sachs discuss how CIPS provided policy analysis and fostered stakeholder engagement in the months leading up to the T20 summit and beyond.

This interview features Taehoon (TK) Kim, Co-Founder and CEO of nWay. We discuss going to arcades with his mom in South Korea, why he wasn't allowed to play console games as a kid in Canada, what he learned from Samsung's work culture, why it's hard for VCs to invest in gaming, finding passion at the intersection of technology and art, the best type of IP for game partnerships, how he ended up selling nWay to Animoca Brands, and how player ownership in games creates attachment and meaning, and prevents gamer exploitation.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow us on LinkedIn: RockWater LinkedInEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.comInterview TranscriptThe interview was lightly edited for clarity.Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders.Taehoon Kim:So I was really upset when Lightspeed thing fell through. I went out drinking with my friends and I got hammered that night. I had another VC pitch the next morning. I was so hungover that during the presentation I threw up three times. During the pitch, I would say, "Excuse me, I'd run to the bathroom." I would throw up, come back, continue the pitch. And I did that three times., And I did the presentation 9:00 AM I came home and I was, "Oh, my God, I totally screwed that up." I fell asleep. I woke up at 4:00 PM, got a call at 5:00 PM saying that he was in. Usually it doesn't happen that way, but it was a really weird period of time in my life.Chris Erwin:This week's episode features TK Kim, CEO of nWay and a serial gaming entrepreneur. So TK was born in Seoul, South Korea to a mom who was a gamer and a lover of arcades. After studying at Cornell, TK started his career at Samsung, where he helped launch their smartphone and next gen mobile gaming businesses. TK then went on to co-found three gaming companies, and raised over $90 million in venture capital. Today he's the CEO of nWay, which is a developer, publisher, and tech platform for competitive multiplayer games across mobile, PC, and consoles. nWay was sold to Animoca in 2020.Some highlights of our chat include why he wasn't allowed to play console games as a kid in Canada, why it's hard for VCs to invest in gaming, finding passion at the intersection of technology and art, why he doesn't mind getting rejected by investors, the best type of IP for game partnerships, and how player ownership in games creates attachment and meaning and prevents gamer exploitation. All right, let's get to it.TK, thanks for being on The Come Up podcast.Taehoon Kim:Hey, thanks for having me. Super excited to be here.Chris Erwin:We have a pretty amazing story to tell about your career, but as always, we're going to rewind a bit and kind of go to the origin story. So it'd be awesome to hear about where you grew up and what your parents and what your household was like.Taehoon Kim:I was born in Seoul, Korea, and then I moved to Vancouver, Canada when I was in fourth grade. I think I was 10 or 11. At the time, growing up in Seoul, a little bit more strict environment. One funny thing is that my mom was a gamer and she would take me to the arcade, I think when I was super young, five or six years old. That's when I got really into gaming and how fun could that could be. But when I moved to Canada, however, she didn't really let me have any consoles, when that switch from the arcade era to the console era happened.I think she was a little bit influenced from the Asian culture and didn't want me to be getting too loose on academics. But when I got the computer, that's when I started really getting back to gaming. She didn't know I was playing games, but I was really into that. And then when Doom came out, that's when I really also started getting into online gaming, which is a big part of the reason why I'm so into PVP and competitive gaming.Chris Erwin:So your mom was a gamer and she would take you to the arcades in Seoul. What were the types of games that you guys liked to play together? And was this just something special that you and your mom did? Or was it a whole family outing that you did with your mom and dad and your siblings?Taehoon Kim:My dad didn't really like games, so it was just me and my mom. And she was really into Galaga and getting on the top of the leaderboard there. Oftentimes, I would watch her play and I would also try, but I wasn't as good as her. So I mean, I would mostly try to beat a record, but I couldn't. That's how I got into it early on.Chris Erwin:Did you also go to the arcade with a lot of your peers growing up when you were in Korea? And did any of your peers parents play? Or was it kind of like, I have the cool mom, she's into gaming, and we'd go do that on the weekends?Taehoon Kim:Oh, later on when I got older and I got in elementary school, yes, I definitely did go to the arcade with my friends. And then later on, in Seoul, arcades turned into PC bang. I'm not sure if you heard of it, but it's like the room full of PCs and it would play PC games there. I mean, I got in earlier than my friends, because of my mom.Chris Erwin:Remind me, what was the reason that you guys came to Vancouver from Korea?Taehoon Kim:I'm not a 100% sure if this is the real reason, but my parents would always tell me it's because I wasn't really fitting well with the type of education in Korea, where it was more, much more strict and less creative. They wanted us, me and my brother, to get a Western education. I think it turned out to be good for me, I guess.Chris Erwin:Do you remember when you were kind of joined the academic and the school system in Vancouver, I know it was at a young age, you were about 10 years old, you said, did you feel that that was like, "Hey, this is immediately different and I really like it and enjoy it"? Or was it nerve-wracking for you to make such a big change in your life to be uprooted at such a young age? What were you feeling at that time?Taehoon Kim:It was immediately different, lot less grinding. Even at third or fourth grade, back in Seoul, it was pretty tough. After school was over at 5:00 PM, I still had to go to all these after school programs until 9:00 PM or something like that. And I didn't do the homework afterwards and everybody was doing it. So there was a lot of peer pressure for parents to also put their kids to the same kind of rigorous program. And when I was in Vancouver, I didn't have to do any of that. So it felt more free and math was a lot easier.Chris Erwin:Math was a lot easier in Vancouver.Taehoon Kim:You know how crazy it is for Asian countries with math early on.Chris Erwin:So you're probably the top of your class. You were such a standout, and I bet at a young age that was pretty fun because it was easy to you too.Taehoon Kim:People thought I was super smart. I wasn't, it was just that I started earlier doing more hard stuff in math. It wasn't necessarily that was smarter. But again, on the other subject, because my English was suffering, I had to get a lot of help. So I would help them in math and they would help me with the other subjects.Chris Erwin:And you mentioned that in Western education there's also probably more emphasis on using the creative part of your brain as well, and balancing that out with the math or the quantitative side. What did that look like to you as you were going through middle school and high school before you went to college? Any specific applications or stories stand out?Taehoon Kim:Yeah, one thing that stood out to me was how a lot of the homeworks and assignments were project based and group based. Where teamwork mattered, and I would have to work with two or three other students to do a project, where we had a lot of freedom to create what we wanted. And the fact that there's no right answers. And it was really weird for me at the beginning, but I got used to it later on. But I think that's kind of a key difference. And at least at that time.Chris Erwin:During your teenage years and coming of age, before you go to Cornell, what was the gaming culture in Vancouver? And what was your role in it?Taehoon Kim:Early '90s when the console wars were happening with Nintendo and Sega, and there was a lot of cool things happening there, but I didn't get to really partake in that. My parents didn't allow me to have consoles. But same things were happening in the PC gaming, especially without modems and the early stage of internet happened. Me and my friends, we got started with Wolfenstein, which was mind blowing.Chris Erwin:Oh, I remember Wolfenstein, it was one of the earliest first person shooters on a PC.Taehoon Kim:It was mind blowing. It was the first game to really utilize 3D spaces in the way it did. But then the real game changer was Doom because you can... Even with the slow modem, I think it was an amazing feat, think about it now, with limited technology and networking, I could dial into, using my modem, and then connect with my friends, and I could play PVP. And that was when the gaming was the most fun for me, actually, playing with friends live. And I would play it late until night early in the morning, over and over again, the same map.Chris Erwin:I remember playing Wolfenstein at my friend's place, shout out, Adam Sachs. And then I also remember playing Doom, and I remember having the cheat codes where I can go into God mode.Taehoon Kim:Oh, right.Chris Erwin:And I was invincible and I could play with five different types of guns, including the rocket launcher. I can specifically remember from my youth some of the different levels. And sitting at my PC station kind of right next to my family's common room. Those are very fun memories. I don't think I was ever doing... I was never live playing with friends. Were you able to do that within the Doom platform? Or were you using a third party application on top of that?Taehoon Kim:I think it was within the Doom platform. It's pretty amazing. Doom was a fast game, so the fact that it worked, it was amazing. When Quake came out, afterwards, that's when I think e-sports was really ended up becoming more serious and people were going to playing at a more higher tier. But that's when I got out of FPS and dove into fighting games.Chris Erwin:Got it. You moved to Vancouver, you're a standout in school, on the math side just because of all your training in Korea. And you're learning about work in these more kind of project based environments or team based work, where there's also a lot of freedom for collaboration. You end up going to Cornell. When you were applying to school, what was your intention? Did you have a very clear focus of, "This is what I want my career to look like, so this is what I'm going to study in undergrad"? Or was it a bit more free flowing?Taehoon Kim:I really wanted to go into a top engineering school. I knew that was what I wanted to do. I wanted to study electrical engineering or computer science, and I was looking at Cornell, MIT, Stanford, they had really good engineering programs. And I knew that the playing online games and doing a lot of mods and all that stuff in the computer, and looking at kind of the early stage of internet, I knew that was going to be a big thing later on. My goal was to kind of get into that sector by studying engineering or information technology.Chris Erwin:Was there any certain moments when you were at Cornell that to help to point you in kind of this gaming leadership, gaming entrepreneurship career path that you've now been on for the last couple decades?Taehoon Kim:Well, a couple things happened. I was good at math. I was good at engineering, and internet was happening. And then one thing I didn't talk about was that I was also really good at art. At one point, I even thought about going to art school. I think it was because of my mom's side of the family, a lot of artists. And I think it was the DNA from my mom's side. What I love about gaming was the fact that you can kind of combine technology and my love for technology and also my love for art.And when I graduated, Cornell, started work at Samsung and there was an opportunity to go into a new gaming. That's when it clicked for me. I was like, "Wow, I really want to get into this industry. It's as both of what I love." But at Cornell, because we had super fast ethernet, a lot of people were playing StarCraft at that time. And that's how I saw the world in terms of, "Wow, these type of massively play online games. I mean, RPGs or games where you can play competitively is going to be a big thing."Chris Erwin:I don't want to date you TK, if that's uncomfortable, but around what time period was this? What year was this around?Taehoon Kim:College was from 1997 to 2002.Chris Erwin:I have to ask, too, when you say that you almost went to art school, and that you had a passion for arts, since it's very early on, what type of art applications? Was it painting? Was it drawing? Was it sculpture? Was it something completely different? What did that look like?Taehoon Kim:Sculpture, I was good, but I didn't excel at it. I was mainly good at sketching, painting, and doing just a lot of creative art, concept art, which is a big part of game development, actually.Chris Erwin:Your first role, what you did for work right after Cornell was you went to Samsung, and there you were a product manager where you helped start Samsung's smartphone business, and you're also a product manager for next-gen mobile gaming. And as you said, this was exciting to you, because you saw gaming as the intersection of technology and art. Tell us how that first role came to be and kind of what you focused on there.Taehoon Kim:I was part of a team called new business development team. Group of 13 people, and our job was to create next-gen businesses. Three businesses that we isolated as something that we should work on was telematics, which is using the map data to help people and navigations and bring new technologies to the car. Second one was smartphone business, taking some of the operating systems from PDAs at the time and then moving that over to the phone. And then third one was gaming, because Nokia was going big with gaming at that time. And Samsung was second to Nokia in market share and someone wanted to do whatever Nokia was doing at that time.So those were three main things. And I got into the gaming side after one of the first business trips was to San Jose, which at that time was hosting GDC, Game Developer Conference. And it was my first time going to GDC. And, yeah, I was just fascinated with the group. It was engineers, artists, players, developers, publishers. And that community really fascinated me, and that's when I decided, "Hey, I really want to be part of this group. I want to get into gaming." So I came back and said, "Hey, I want to take on this project." And a lot of my peers were avoiding the gaming sector, because they knew that was difficult. And Samsung previously tried to do a console and it failed. So they knew it was difficult, but I wanted to get into it. I was super excited to get into it.Chris Erwin:Was it hard to convince your leadership, just based on the past challenges that Samsung had, to do it? Or did they just say, "Hey, TK, sure if you have an idea, see what you can do and then come back to us"?Taehoon Kim:Well, the leadership really wanted to do it mainly because Nokia at the time, that's when they launched their first gaming phone called N-Gage. I'm not sure if a lot of people remember, but it was a really weird device. They launched that business, and it was getting a lot of press. And our CEO was like, "We also have to a quick follow, and we have to get into gaming phones as well." So it was but different from what they did in the past, because it wasn't just a pure console, it's a smartphone plus a gaming device.So it was a completely different type of environment at that time compared to when they were doing console. But nonetheless, because gaming is a [inaudible 00:14:06] driven and also because it's a tough business, my peers were, "Hey, I want to be in another sector." So it was less competitive for me to take on that project.Chris Erwin:So that must have been pretty exciting. Your first role out of school, you work for a very large technology company that essentially gives you as a young in your career a mandate. It's like, "Hey, TK, you know what? You want to go forward and figure out a new gaming business line for Samsung? You got the green light to go and do it." That must have felt pretty good. And I think you were there for a few years. What did you accomplish? And then what was the reason for why you decided to move on from that opportunity?Taehoon Kim:It was a very unique opportunity for me. I think I got lucky being at the right place at the right time, because that's when Samsung was really taking off as a global brand name. That's when they first overtook Sony in brand value. And that's when the consumers were looking at the brand more than as a microwave company, and a major player in the IT space. And that's when they were also hiring a lot of people from overseas.And I did both undergrad and master's program at Cornell. And when I was in my masters, I got to know the founders of Palm, which was also a Cornell EE grad, through my professor. I got really stuck into Palm OS. I was semi expert with the Palm OS. I think that's why they hired me, because Samsung was the first major mobile manufacturer to adopt the Palm OS into their phone. And then the second thing is, because at that time Samsung's culture was still, it wasn't easy for Western certain people to... A lot of people from the US schools starting there, they weren't lasting that long. So it was hard for me as well, but I kind of decided, "Hey, I'm going to really make sure that I can stick around and tough it out."Chris Erwin:I think this is another important point for the listeners is that you are also building another company that you had founded while you were at Samsung called IvyConnection. Is that right?Taehoon Kim:Right.Chris Erwin:I like this because I think this is the beginning of a ongoing theme in your career that you are a builder and you're a founder. You're working at a full-time role, you're also building something on the side. And then this leads to, I think, some other big entrepreneurial ambitions kind of later on that we'll get to. But tell us quickly about IvyConnection.Taehoon Kim:IvyConnection kind of came out of the school project that was doing at Cornell, my master's program. At first, it was supposed to be a platform to connect tutors and students. And then I quickly realized, when I got to Seoul that there were a lot of parents who were looking to send their kids overseas to top schools, and they didn't know that things were different over there in terms how admissions worked. So I kind of created the category, which is a huge category is now it was the first company to do it. And so we did get a lot of demand. I started that right before I started working at Samsung, and it was just continuously growing. I recruited a whole bunch of my friends, and I had them kind of run the company. I was a co-founder, and while working at Samsung, I was advising and helping the growth.Chris Erwin:It's amazing, because you describe at Samsung it was a very brutal work culture at the headquarters. So you're probably working very long hours, very demanding, and then you're also building something on the side. It's like when did you have time to sleep?Taehoon Kim:I was young though, so I didn't need... I was happy to just work, until I was young and single. I was at my early 20s, so it was not problem for me. But, yeah, it was pretty brutal. We had to get to work right at 8:00 AM and the system kind of keeps record of exactly when you get into the company. And then you also had to come out on Saturdays for half a day.Chris Erwin:I did not realize that, that's the expectation across... Is that across all companies in Korea, as part of the work culture and the work norms? Or is that just unique to Samsung?Taehoon Kim:I think what's pretty unique to Samsung. I think at that time chairman wanted us to start early. You basically only have one day weekend.Chris Erwin:And for you, where you're also building another company on the side, it's almost like you never had time that you weren't working or very little bit, most likely. So you're at Samsung for about three years, but then you transition to Realtime Worlds. Explain why did you transition from your Samsung role? And what were you building at Realtime Worlds?Taehoon Kim:As I said, I was a project manager for a new gaming platform, and part of my job was also to source content for the device. And I remember playing Lemmings and I met the creator of Lemons, Dave Jones who just sold DMA Design and created Realtime Worlds. And I try to convince him to create games for my platform, but him and his co-founder, they ended up recruiting me. They're like, "Hey, join us. We just started Realtime Worlds, and we'd love to get your help, because we want to get into online gaming. And you have a lot more exposure to online gaming from Seoul, from Korea. So we wanted to be part of this exciting venture." So I decided to leave Samsung and joined them.Chris Erwin:How was that experience? Was it a similar work culture? Did you feel your past experience was very helpful and so you got in there and you're like you knew exactly what to do? Or was it still a very steep learning curve at that point in your career?Taehoon Kim:It was a steep learning curve for me, in terms of game development, because I have never done game development. Because Realtime Worlds is a game developer and publisher. That's right around when they just signed a contact with Microsoft for a game called Crackdown. It was like a souped up version of GTA. Dave Jones was also the creator and designer of GTA, the original GTA 1 and 2. So it was creating a similar game. And they had ambition to also create an online version of GTA, which is where I got involved.I got one of the large publishers in Korea called Webzen to do a publishing deal to fund portion of development for the GTA online project, and be a publisher for that. So they wanted me to create the Asia branch for Realtime Worlds, they called it Realtime World Korea. I started the studio here in Seoul, recruited some engineers and designers and also did biz dev work to get that publishing deal with Webzen.Chris Erwin:And I think also one of the highlights from your time there is that, did you also help to raise money from NEA, in your role at the company as you guys were growing?Taehoon Kim:Oh, yes. My professor from Cornell, he was friends with the founder of NEA, and he knew a lot of VCs. And Realtime Worlds was based in Scotland, and they knew very little about Silicon Valley. So I told him, "Hey, we're doing something amazing here and online gaming is a new sector, so I think we should be able to raise some money." So I created the deck, which I learned from school on how to do, so created a deck, created a business plan, and then flew over to Sand Hill Road in Menlo Park and pitched to a few VCs including NEA. I was surprised. I was like, it was fairly easy at that time to raise money. NEA decided to, all by themselves, bring $30 million into the company and we didn't even have product launched at that time.Chris Erwin:This is pre-product. Did you go to Sand Hill Road by yourself? Or did you have a support team? Or was the company leadership saying, "Hey, TK, you know what you're doing here, you have the connections, go make this happen by yourself"?Taehoon Kim:It was just me at the beginning. It was just me by myself, just trying it out, because the first meeting is exploratory anyways. So at the beginning it was me. They love what they saw, and then afterwards it was like everybody, all the partners from the NEA side and also everyone from our side. At the beginning, it was just me.Chris Erwin:Wow. Did you enjoy the fundraising process? I mean, it seems like you're wearing so many hats, you're doing business development, you're fundraising, you're also building out different offices as part of the core game development practice. Was there something that you felt like you were gravitating towards more specifically? Or did you like doing it all and having a broad top down view of the company?Taehoon Kim:Yeah, I think the reason I ended up taking the fundraising process is because I actually enjoyed the process. A lot of people hate it, because part of the fundraising process is just being comfortable with getting rejected. But I didn't mind that at all. I'm like, "Fine [inaudible 00:21:57]." And big part of the process is also not only selling, but knowing what they're looking for. So I got really good at researching all the VCs, and instead of having one deck and just one approach for all the VCs, I would custom create the deck for each of the VCs, and only target the top tier ones. I quickly realized that it's actually easier to raise money from the top tier VCs than the second or third tier VCs, surprisingly. And that approach really worked, and I love the process.Chris Erwin:Why is it easier to raise money from top VCs versus tier two, tier three?Taehoon Kim:It's actually simple. The top tier VCs are able to make decisions on their own, even though it seems odd or different or something that doesn't seem intuitive. They are able to say, "Hey, we're going to take a bet on this," and they can make a quick decision. The second and third tier VCs are always looking to see what others are doing. They're always looking for validation. They're always looking to see what the first tier guys are doing.So a lot more due diligence, it takes a lot more work, and they kind of beat around the bush a lot more. They take a lot longer to make their decisions. And a lot of times they bring in other VCs to co-lead or see what they think. So it's actually a lot more work to get them to lead. So if you have a great product and you have a good vision, then just go to the top tier guys. Go straight to top to your guys. They'll be able to make a much quicker and faster decision.Chris Erwin:That's a great insight. TK, though, I do have to say yet again, while you're at Realtime Worlds, I think the same year that you start working there, is 2005, you also are the co-founder of another company called Nurien Software. So yet again, you're working at a company, it's a very big role, you're working across a variety of different company functions, but you're also building something on the side. Is that right?Taehoon Kim:Right. Yeah.Chris Erwin:What was Nurien Software?Taehoon Kim:So Nurien Software was actually a spinoff off of the Realtime Worlds' Korea office. Dave Jones, he introduced me to the guys at Epic Games, and that's when they were launching on Unreal Engine 3. And he also introduced me to another studio who was doing a music game, and that kind of clicked for me. I was like, "Hey, what if we take Unreal Engine 3, which is very high graphics fidelity, which is usually used for like MMORPGs and then create a music game out of it, because the music is to be very visual." And they wanted this to be kind of separate. So I decided to be make it, instead of doing it Realtime Worlds Korea made it into a separate one.And that also started to get momentum. And it turns out music plus gaming was a huge thing, especially in Asia. Just as we were starting the development for, we call it MStar, a music based MMO, another game called Audition just took off massively in China. It was doing a billion a year. It was a tough time for me because Realtime Worlds and Nurien Software, at the same time, was kind of taking off.Chris Erwin:And again, for Nurien Software, you also led a $25 million fundraise from NEA and top VCs.Taehoon Kim:I pitched them on Friday, and they told me they were in on Monday. So it was crazy times. That's when online gaming was really taking off. So it was actually, it's not just me, but it was much easier to raise money at that time.Chris Erwin:Probably, again, working a lot, building, not a lot of sleep. You're running both these companies. And then Nurien Software sells in 2010 to Netmarble CJ E&M. And what was the end result for Realtime Worlds? What happened to that company?Taehoon Kim:I was only running both companies for a short period of time. So right after Nurien Software got funded, the board wanted me to focus on the new VCs, and Nurien Software wanted me to focus on Nurien Software. So I helped Realtime Worlds find a replacement for me, and I left Realtime Worlds, and I was full-time at Nurien.Chris Erwin:Hey, listeners, this is Chris Erwin, your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you, if you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot, if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work, and it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it everybody. Let's get back to the interview.Taking a step back, so, TK, you're part of these very exciting companies. The leadership and the founders clearly, really believe in you, and think you are someone special. So they're giving you the green light to essentially co-found spinoffs, and then go raise additional venture funding for that. Did you feel at this point in your early career that you're like, "I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. This is an exciting path, These are growing industries. I'm good at it. I have the right international connections. And now it's time where I want to double down on this, and I'm going to be an entrepreneur. I see white space in these gaming markets, and I want to build towards that. And I'm going to go raise capital to make that happen." What was going through your head? Because it feels like the story that you're telling is so exciting for someone to be at your career stage. What were you feeling?Taehoon Kim:That's when I realized that this act of dreaming something up, raising money for it, and actually launching it and seeing it become real and seeing a product go live, and enjoyed by millions of people, is just really fulfilling. And it's something that I knew that I wanted to continue doing. It's something that I really enjoy.So even to this day, that's the main reason that I'm doing this. Well, it's more than financially driven motives. I just love creating new things and bringing it out to people and surprising people and seeing them delighted. It makes all the hard work worthwhile, and it's a very kind of thrilling experience for me. And that's when I realized, "Hey, I want to do this long term. This is what I'm good at. Coming out with new ideas and getting it funded and launching it." Not all of them are successful, but that's fine. The act of doing it is a reward.Chris Erwin:Very well said. So I think, was it that mindset, I think, a company that you did found and you worked at for one to two years before nWay was Pixelberry. What was the quick take on Pixelberry? What was that?Taehoon Kim:So Pixelberry was also a spinoff from Nurien Software. Nurien Software was an MMO company, so, as I said, it was using Unreal Engine 3. It was still very heavy. You had to download a big client, and run it on pc. And back in 2009, 2010, that's when social gaming and hyper-accessible gaming was taken off. So Pixelberry, at the beginning, was an experiment to try to bring over a lot of the core technologies built at Nurien Software and make them more accessible, and make it so that people can just instantly play on a browser.And the first game that we tried to do was a fashion game, because we realized from launching MStar, which was a music MMO, the best way to monetize those games were through, we're making a lot of money by selling clothing for the avatars, selling fashion, in other words. So we wanted to create a game, a social game, focused on creating fashion and selling fashion.Chris Erwin:I didn't realize that Pixelberry was also a spinoff of Nurien Software. So it seems that you had a really good thing going with the founding team of Lemmings that created Realtime Worlds. There was a lot of market opportunity. The founders really believed in you, and you had all these different ways, as you said, to kind of create and innovate as the gaming markets were evolving, and bring these incredible gaming experiences to users. And I think you were part of that team for almost six years, from 2005 to 2011. What was the catalyst that caused you to break off from that, start the venture that you still run today, which is nWay?Taehoon Kim:I was doing Pixelberry and it wasn't doing that well, mainly because, me as a gamer, didn't really enjoy fashion games that much. Maybe that was the reason. Or maybe because the industry was kind of changing rapidly, but it wasn't doing that well. Zynga and a handful of others were kind of dominating the social gaming space. And the co-founders of Realtime Worlds, Dave Jones and Tony Harman, at that time, just sold realtime worlds to GamersFirst. And they're like, "Hey, TK, let's start a new company together." And that's when I kind of jumped at the opportunity, because I really wanted to work with those guys again. And that's when nWay was founded.Chris Erwin:Oh, got it. So Dave and Tony are part of the founding team of nWay?Taehoon Kim:Yes, the three of us that were the founders [inaudible 00:30:16].Chris Erwin:So I think what would be helpful for the listeners is to explain what was the initial vision for nWay, when you, Dave, and Tony were coming together to found the company. What was your vision for what you wanted to build?Taehoon Kim:By that time, I did a lot of different type of games, did [inaudible 00:30:31] mobile gaming at Samsung, I did MMOs, PC MMOs Unreal Engine 3, and then also browser based games at Pixelberry. And the vision at nWay was like, "Hey, a lot of people are becoming gamers now through new technologies, new devices, mobile was really taking off. People were playing games on mobile browsers, smart TVs, and there was new technologies to bring them all together." So the vision was, "Hey, let's go back to the type of games that we love. Let's go back to the days when we were playing Doom online, and playing fighting games with other live players. Let's bring competitive gaming, let's bring real time multiplier gaming to the emerging platforms." So that was the vision.Let's create new technologies to bring console quality, competitive multiplier games that could run on mobile browsers, smart TVs, where people can kind of play together regardless of what device they were on." That turned out to be a big thing, these days with Fortnite and Minecraft, everybody's playing crossplay games. Your friend is on tablet, somebody else is on a Nintendo Switch, and you can play together.Chris Erwin:Okay, so when you start out, that's the vision. So where do you start? What was the first steps? Is it pre-product, we're going to go raise money, and put together a team? Or in the beginning of it self-finance and you were working on a certain game or a certain platform? What were your first early moves?Taehoon Kim:I took a lot of the learnings from the previous products. So by then I knew how to make games that would run on multiple devices. I knew it wasn't easy, but we wanted to do a quick prototype of an action RPG game, where it can have four player co-op and two player PVP mode that would run on a mobile phone and a browser. We were able to create a quick prototype in about six weeks, and the prototype, it did all the selling for us.Because I could just show it to the investors, "Hey, look, I'm over here. There's another guy on a mobile device, there's another guy on another device." And they could see that we're all synchronized, and they could see that it was a very fast action game. A lot of them were blown away at how there was low latency and running so fast just over the internet. And so we were able to raise money from the top tier VCs. But at the same time, 2011, 2012 was a period of time when there were a lot of acquisitions happening, and we were also getting a lot of acquisition offers at the same time, that complicated the process.Chris Erwin:So six weeks into building a prototype, you're fundraising on Sand Hill Road, but you're also getting inbounds from companies that want to buy your business that early.Taehoon Kim:Yeah. They saw the prototype and immediately give us ridiculous offers to buy the company. It was basically VCs and companies trying to buy us competing, which helped the valuation to go up.Chris Erwin:All right. So a couple questions on that. It's really interesting. One, were you at a point, because you've successfully raised money from Silicon Valley investors, you've had exits for them, where you and the investment funds made money. Were you able at that point, where you felt like you could walk into a room, do a product demo, you didn't need to show up with a deck and they would say, "Yeah, this sounds great, TK, we're going to give you money"? Were you at that point or were you still running a formal process? You show up with the business plan and everything?Taehoon Kim:We didn't need the business plan anymore, but we still need a deck. By then, I just became really an expert on how to create a simple deck that walked through the business, and I knew what type of prototype need to be created to fundraise. It was a simple 15 to 20 slides deck plus a quick demo. And simpler story the better, is this basically a storytelling deck walkthrough, why you're able to do what you're doing now. Why it hasn't been done until now. And then you talk about the market and how big the market would get, show a quick prototype, and talk about the technologies involved. And that was pretty much it.Chris Erwin:You're getting these incredible inbounds from companies who want to buy you, plus, you're also raising from venture capitalists. How did you and the two other founders come together to decide, do we sell or do we not sell?Taehoon Kim:The VCs helped us with that as well, maybe because they were trying to convince us to maybe take their deal. But they would let us know what each of the companies are like, and they would connect us to founders who have sold to that company previously. And I was able to pick their brains or interview them. We decided, "Hey, we really want to try this on our own." So we decided to take the VC route. And I think at that time that was, the VC was Lightspeed Ventures, who gave us a good term sheet and we decided to sign that term sheet.And the reason in the beginning I told you why things became complicated is because after we signed the term sheet with Lightspeed, one of their portfolio companies, KIXEYE, they also decided that they wanted to buy us. And they give us an offer we rejected, and then they got really mad at Lightspeed Ventures asking them why they're funding a company that could be a competitor to them. And KIXEYE basically threatened to sue them if they invested in us. So at the last minute it kind of fell apart.Chris Erwin:Oh, so Lightspeed did not end up investing in you at that point.Taehoon Kim:So imagine this Zynga gave us an offer, a pretty good offer to buy us. We rejected Zynga's offer and signed with Lightspeed, but Lightspeed couldn't follow through because of KIXEYE. I'm thankful to them because at that time they actually gave me a check for a million dollars, it was like a loan, with no interest rate.Chris Erwin:Lightspeed gave it to you?Taehoon Kim:Yeah, I was really surprised by this. They were like, "Hey, we need to talk." I met them at a coffee shop, and they like, "Hey, here's a check for million dollars. I'm really sorry to have wasted your time, and take this money and use it to give more time to find another investor, because it's not your fault that this deal kind of fell through." So if we didn't get that, it would've been a lot harder for us. Because we did spend a lot of time, a lot of cycles with them, and that meant we had less time to finish the fundraising. That million dollar check, give us more time.Chris Erwin:Think about that million dollar Check is an incredible marketing for Lightspeed as being a go-to partner, as a tier one VC, right? Because one, for you, TK, in your career, knowing that they did that, that they had your back, they understood the challenging situation that they put you in. And they were very direct with you about how they want to do a make good. Next time you go need to go raise money for the next thing that you found, are you probably going to have a conversation with Lightspeed? I would say the answer is yes.Taehoon Kim:Yeah, became really good friends with them. But isn't that incredible? They don't know if they're going to get the million dollar back. What if we fail, and we just kind of go bankrupt or whatever, and then I have to pay them back? But they were, "Hey, here's a million dollars, there's no interest rate. You can pay us back time."Chris Erwin:I agree, it is amazing. I think what they were putting a price tag on was, we want to be in the TK business. We want to be in business with Dave and Tony. And so this is not the last time that we're going to have a chance to invest in a company that could make them millions, if not billions of dollars. And so they said, "We're going to invest in that relationship," and probably a $1 million check to them was easy money, right?Taehoon Kim:Yeah.Chris Erwin:That's amazing. I've never heard of something like that before, but I totally get why they did it. That's incredible. So I understand that Lightspeed and other venture firms were introducing you to founders who had sold their businesses to these potential acquirers of your business. What was one or two things that you learned that made you decide, "I don't want to sell right now"?Taehoon Kim:They were describing to me the culture of the company, because once you sell, you're basically getting a job at that company. And if there's a culture fit, that's great. But if it's a different type of culture, then maybe you won't enjoy it as much. Again, I was doing it because I love that process because the actual act of creating and launching is what's rewarding for us. So I think that's main reason why we decided, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't sell." But after Lightspeed thing fell through, we were like, "Oh, maybe we should have sold." Right after that million dollar check and that conversation, literally, the next day or two days from then I was able to get another term sheet from another VC. So this one is actually a funny story. So I was really upset when Lightspeed thing fell through. I went out drinking with my friends, and I got hammered that night. I had another VC pitch the next morning. I was so hungover that during the presentation I threw up three times, and I was doing a pitch.Chris Erwin:During the pitch.Taehoon Kim:Yeah, during the pitch, I would say, "Excuse me, I went to the bathroom." I would throw up, come back, continue the pitch. And I did that three times, and whenever I made that trip to the bathroom, people were kind of laughing at me, who were at the front desk. I did the presentation 9:00 AM, I came home and I was, "Oh, my God, I totally screwed that up." I fell asleep. I woke up at 4:00 PM, got a call at 5:00 PM saying that he was in. So I was like, "What the..." Because I told him the story of what happened as well, so he said, "Hey, all that stuff just added more color to your storytelling," and then he was in.But then later I realized that the reason he was able to make quick decision, this is a Baseline Ventures, by the way. Baseline Venture was, it was a very unique firm that they had one partner, so they were able to make decision very quickly. And I pitched to them, I think, two days after Instagram was acquired by Facebook. So Baseline was in a flush with cash and they were very happy about the outcome. And so I think that's one of the reasons why they were also able to make a bet, and make that decision very quickly. I literally made a pitch 9:00 AM, and then got a call 5:00 PM saying, they wanted to put in the money. Usually, it doesn't happen that way, but it was a really weird period of time in my life.Chris Erwin:No incredible in a situation in which you thought that that was probably the worst pitch that you've ever given in your life, because you're running to the bathroom to throw up. It turns out that it was, at least one of the more impressive pitches in converting a VC into someone who has interest within just a handful of hours. So it just goes to show you got to stay resilient. And you're human, you just went through this traumatic event where Lightspeed pulled out at the last minute, so you need to go blow off some steam. You go out boozing with your buddies, but you come back the next morning, you put your game face on, and you do what you got to do. That's an incredible story. Thank you for sharing that.So then you raised the money from Baseline, and a few others, and then when did you feel, "Okay, we turned down some initial inbound offers to buy the company," but when did you feel that you really started to get some real momentum that showed you and the other founders, "Hey, we have something much bigger here"? What did that look like?Taehoon Kim:That's when mobile gaming was becoming more serious and evolving from just casual Match 3 games to a device that could run any type of game. So that's when we really got a lot of momentum. So the first prototype they created, I told you it was a four player co-op plus a PVP action RPG game. So we continued to develop on that prototype. We called the game ChronoBlade, and when we had a much more alpha version of the game, that's when things were really blowing up in Asia for RPG games and mobile.And during GDC, when a lot of the publishers were in San Francisco, we had publishers after publishers lined up, literally, signing offers on a napkin table and presenting us, "Here's how much we were willing to pay for MGM and royalty fees for your game." And we were able to just pick from the top tier ones. So we had offer from Tencent, NetEase, Netmarble, the biggest and the best. That was at the point in the company when we knew that things were becoming really serious.Chris Erwin:What year was that?Taehoon Kim:I think that was like 2013, about a year after fundraising.Chris Erwin:Seven years later you do end up selling the company to Animoca. How did that come to be?Taehoon Kim:Oh, this is a complicated story. So in 2018 there was a company called Tron, it's a big blockchain company, who moved in right above our office space. And that company was just taking off like crazy and they had happy hours, they had events. As neighbors we would show up, and that's how we kind of learned about blockchain space, and merging blockchain with gaming could be a new thing. And at that time it was getting really difficult to monetize competitive games because the game has to be fair. So we can't sell things that's [inaudible 00:42:30] base, it can only sell cosmetics. And we were always trying to find new ways to innovate on how to monetize those type of games.And we quickly realized, "Hey, if we can make items in the games that players can earn into NFTs, and if the players can kind of trade NPS items among themselves, and we don't have to even sell them, they can get them in the game, and then exchange from themselves," which was already happening in the MMORPG space anyways. And if we can charge a transaction fee for each of the trades, that could be a model where we didn't have to do any of the [inaudible 00:43:01] box stuff that the players didn't like, and have a enough steady and viable business model.And that's how we got into the blockchain space. At the same time, Animoca was investing like crazy into anything related to the blockchain. It's when I met Yat Siu, the chairman of Animoca, and we kind of hit it off. But funny thing happened to my board at that time, I've never seen this happen. I had a five member board, and our lead investor, our biggest investor at the time, Bridge Ventures, which was a IDG Ventures US, who renamed themselves Bridge Ventures, and they separated from IDG. And so they had to raise their own LPs, and their LPs looked at their investment portfolio and said, "Hey, you do a lot of gaming, you do a lot of enterprise, maybe you guys should pick one instead doing both."And they decided to pick enterprise and get out of gaming. But the partner at Bridge Ventures who was on our board, basically, said, "Hey, then what am I going to do?" And he ended up leaving with Bridge Ventures to create a new VC fund called Griffin. Now it's like the biggest gaming fund by the way, but he left. And then TransLink Ventures, which was our second biggest investor, partner from TransLink Ventures for another whole separate reason, he ended up leaving TransLink. And so he was gone. And then our third board member, Peter Levin from Lionsgate, he ended up leaving Lionsgate. So he was gone from the board. So three of our biggest board members all left for different reasons around at the same time, and they were all replaced by new people and the mandate was to get out of gaming. All of a sudden, boom, my board was gone.And so they wanted to get out. They wanted to sell the company. So when I went met with Yat Siu, I hit it off with the Yat, and I thought it would be amazing to work together. And that's how the deal went through. If it was the same board and then there wasn't that kind of shake up at the board level, I'm not sure if I'd be able to sell the company, probably would've been the state of independent. But because of that and the special circumstance, the deal was able to go through. So that was a good thing for Animoca.Chris Erwin:Good thing for Animoca. But if it was up to you, you would've stayed independent for at least a few years longer, because you saw a bigger opportunity ahead, right?Taehoon Kim:Yeah. If it wasn't for that shake, I probably would've stayed independent. But looking back now, I'm thinking that it was a good thing to kind of join forces with Animoca. Right after we joined forces with Animoca, Animoca went through a growth phase. I've never seen a company grow that fast. They basically went from a $100 million valuation to the $6 billion valuation in like two years. They were doubling in valuation every three months. It was kind of nuts. It was really fun to be part of that ride. And right now it's an amazing partnership.Chris Erwin:In that sale, was it a cash and equity deal? So are you able to participate in this crazy run that Animoca's had?Taehoon Kim:It was mostly equity, so it was a huge upside for the investors.Chris Erwin:Got it. A final note before we get to the rapid fire section is now that you're partnered up with Animoca, what do you see as the future for nWay and what you're building together? What gets you excited? And what is some recent success that you want to be building upon?Taehoon Kim:I'm super excited about what we're doing. I think that we're still very early stage with about three, and this whole kind of digital ownership revolution that we're going through. I think there are opportunities for companies like us to develop and publish online games where players can truly own things. I don't want to make a game where it's like an instrument for people to just make money, but I do think that there's something special about being able to really own some of the items that you're playing with. I think it adds meaning, and when you have ownership you just get more attached to things. And so our vision right now is to create more meaningful entertainment through real games that players can play and also have ownership in. And we're going to be doing a lot of experiments and try to really bring together the Web3 community and the gamers under one community.Chris Erwin:And I know something that you've talked about is some recent wins and partnerships and games that you've done is the International Olympic Committee you published Sean White NFTs, likely a powerful marketing engine for that. And then also you have a Power Rangers game, and a game with the WWE. Do you have similar type projects that are upcoming that build on top of these?Taehoon Kim:So Power Rangers and WWE, those are just regular free to play games. They don't have any blockchain or NFT components in there. The innovation there was to have a game where people can just quickly pick up and play and immediately play with another player. Power Rangers especially was super successful. We had over 80 millions downloads, and I think it's in two year five now, and it's continuously profitable. So the game's been amazing.With the Olympic game, we were able to meet with IOC right when their decades long exclusivity with Nintendo and Sega was coming to an end. And so they wanted to explore a new type of game partnerships. One thing that they were noticing is that the younger audience, who were not watching TV anymore was caring less about Olympics and they wanted to focus on bringing the younger audience into caring more about their brand. And they also at the same time noticed that the younger audience are on Fortnite and Minecraft and they're playing games that are crossplay.So they were looking for a game developer or game development partnership where they could have their game run on multiple devices at the same time. And a real time game where people can play to have a social experience. And as you know that's like right on our sweet spot. We were able to prove that we have some of the best kind of technology to make that happen. With another Power Rangers game called Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid, I think it's still is the only fighting game in the world where it runs on everywhere, the runs on Xbox, PlayStation, and the Switch. It even ones on a browser through Stadia. And it's a really fast action game and you can play together with anybody on any device, and there's no lag and there's no [inaudible 00:48:45] issues.So they saw that and they were like, "Hey, we want to partner with you guys." I threw them curve ball and said, "We want to partner with you guys, but we also want to add this thing called NFTs. And we think that there's a 100-year-old tradition that's already there with your brand. When people go to the Olympics they still trade the Olympic pins. We want to make the pins into NFTs, also integrate them to the game, so that when people collect these NFT pins, they could use it in the game to give them a boost in the game." To my surprise, even though they are a very conservative organization, we won the RFP, and they wanted to partner with us. And we launched the project and we got a lot of press from that. And that was a really fun project to launch.Chris Erwin:And I just have to ask, this is a minor detail, but this 100-year-old tradition about trading Olympic pins, are these pins like representative? If you're from the United States and you go to the Olympics, you're wearing a US pin, and then the different athletes will trade them amongst themselves. Is that how that works?Taehoon Kim:Well, there's tons of variety of pins created from poster artworks, emblems, mascots, Coca-Cola always creates Olympic pins together. But the tradition got started, I think, in 1932 or something like that, when they had Olympics in Paris, and the officials, for the first time, had badges or pins and they started trading that. But right now there's a really high variety of pins out there.Chris Erwin:Super cool. It sounds like digitizing those pins and converting them into NFTs that can be traded on chain and in an efficient digital manner that seems it's like a perfect application. I had no idea about the underlying tradition behind that, but makes a ton of sense to me.So let's go into rapid fire. Before we do that, I just want to give you some quick kudos. Look, I think we first met two to three months ago over a Zoom call. And so this is literally our second conversation ever. I did research into years story online, but hearing it come to life, there's a few things that really stand out. I think, one, that your willingness to really work hard and also try different things and take bets very early on in your career, but align those bets with things that you are really passionate about.So even if they were risky, you are doing them down these vectors where it was strong, passionate, and meaningful areas to you. And there's almost in a way you were going to will them into existence or make them work. And clearly you took a bet at the intersection of technology and art, which manifested in gaming that has really paid off.Something also stands out is within the category that you've bet on, in contrast to others that would just say, "Hey, I found myself in this unique opportunity. I'm able to open up doors to raise capital, build businesses." And instead of having the goal just be, "I want to make a lot of money," it is. Instead, "I want to bring delight to users. I have a unique expertise of what the gaming ecosystem, where it comes from and where it's going. And I know what users want. And I want to give them delights. And I'm going to enjoy the journey along the way."And I think that's probably something that we didn't get into, but this probably speaks to a reason why you've been able to recruit teams that build alongside you consistently, and investors that want to back you is because you're going to enjoy the journey. And I think when you focus on the end user and the experience and delight, the money is then going to follow versus going about it the other way. So it's clearly worked out incredibly well for you and very excited to see what you continue building next.Taehoon Kim:Thank you.Chris Erwin:Welcome. Let's go to rapid fire. So six questions, the rules are very straightforward. I'm going to ask six questions and the answers can be either one sentence, or maybe just one to two words. Do you understand the rules?Taehoon Kim:Yes.Chris Erwin:All right, here we go. What do you want to do less of in 2022?Taehoon Kim:Less of Zoom meetings, and more of in-person interactions.Chris Erwin:Got it. What one to two things drive your success?Taehoon Kim:I think it's the ability to read the market, ability to raise money, and then having the optimism to try new things and innovate on things that could be deemed risky.Chris Erwin:Got it. What advice do you have for gaming execs going into the second half of this year?Taehoon Kim:The advice would be to focus on making a fun game. There are a lot of game companies who are getting funded going to kind of play to earn or Web3 games, where they're kind of losing that kind of focus. But I think at the end of the day, the game should be fun. And if the games are able to create a community of gamers who really care about the game and their kind of community inside the game, then you can create an economy within the game that's not a bubble, that's sustainable.Chris Erwin:Well said. Any future startup ambitions?Taehoon Kim:I think AR and VR would make a comeback. It's a really difficult business to be in now, but if I kind of look decades into the future, I think that could be something that could be a new space that could be blossoming later on.Chris Erwin:Proudest life moment?Taehoon Kim:I think that would be a tie between when I got married to my wife and also when I had my twin boys in 2011.Chris Erwin:Oh, you're a father of twins. I'm actually a twin myself.Taehoon Kim:Oh, yeah, I have twin boys.Chris Erwin:Oh, that's the best. How old are they?Taehoon Kim:They're both 11.Chris Erwin:Very cool. TK, it's been a delight chatting with you. Thank you for being on The Come Up podcast.Taehoon Kim:Thank you so much. It was definitely a pleasure.Chris Erwin:All right. Quick heads up that our company has a new service offering. We just introduced RockWater Plus, which is for companies who want an ongoing consulting partner at a low monthly retainer, yet, also need a partner who can flex up for bigger projects when they arise. So who is this for? Well, three main stakeholders, one, operators who seek growth and better run operations. Two, investors who need help with custom industry research and diligence. And, three, leadership who wants a bolt-on strategy team and thought partner.So what is included with RockWater Plus? We do weekly calls to review KPIs or any ad hoc operational needs. We create KPI dashboards to do monthly performance tracking. We do ad hoc research ranging from customer surveys to case studies to white space analysis, financial modeling where we can understand your addressable market size, do P&L forecast, ROI analyses, even cash runway projections. We also do monthly trend reports to track new co-launches, M&A activity, partnerships activity in the space. And lastly, we make strategic introductions to new hires, investors for fundraising, and then also potential commercial strategic partnerships. So if any of this sounds appealing or you want to learn more, reach out to us at hello@wearerockwater.com. We can set a call with our leadership.All right. Lastly, we love to hear from our listeners. If you have any feedback on the show or any ideas for guests, shoot us a note at tcupod@wearerockwater.com. All right, that's it everybody. Thanks for listening.The Come Up is written and hosted by me, Chris Erwin, and is a production of RockWater Industries. Please rate and review this show on Apple Podcast. And remember to subscribe wherever you listen to our show. And if you really dig us, feel free to forward The Come Up to a Friend. You can sign up for our company newsletter at wearerockwater.com/newsletter. And you could follow us on Twitter, @tcupod. The Come Up is engineered by Daniel Tureck. Music is by Devon Bryant. Logo and branding is by Kevin Zazzali. And special thanks to Alex Zirin and Eric Kenigsberg from the RockWater team. 

In this week's episode, we'll talk with leaders from Zimmer Biomet and Vicarious Surgical about the new partners they've entered into with national hospital companies in a bid to further their digital and robotics surgery offerings. Guests include Robert Kraal, Vice President and General Manager, Connected Health at Zimmer Biomet, and Adam Sachs, co-founder and CEO of Vicarious Surgical. You'll get great background on both companies. One note: Tom Salemi interviewed Sachs during a DeviceTalks Tuesday Webinar. So if you'd rather watch the interview go to DeviceTalks.com where you can find the discussion – complete with video and PowerPoint presentation – available for free. Thanks to Cirtronics for sponsoring! Chris Newmarker, executive editor of life sciences, also returns with his Newmarker's Newsmakers – Stryker, Smith + Nephew, Medtronic, Johnson & Johnson, and Philips. Thanks for listening to the DeviceTalks Weekly Podcast.

This interview features Camila Victoriano, Co-Founder and Head of Partnerships at Sonoro.  We discuss how fan fiction taught her to see nerds as heroes, being in the room when Dirty John was pitched to become a podcast, her crash course to figure out the business of podcasting, becoming a first time founder during COVID, why the Mexico audio market is like the US four years ago, Sonoro's growth to a global entertainment company, and why there are no limits to Latino stories.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow us on LinkedIn: RockWater LinkedInEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.comInterview TranscriptThe interview was lightly edited for clarity.Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders.Camila Victoriano:So in 2017, we had a meeting with the editor in chief at the time, and he was like, let me sit you guys down and read you this out loud. And it was what would become Dirty John. That's when we realized there's something here that I think could be our first big swing in audio and in podcasting. And we got to talking and at that point we were like, I think we can do something here. And I think there's a story here to be told in audio. When it launched, it took us all by surprise with how well it did. Obviously we knew it was a good story, but I think you never know when something's going to be that much of a hit. Today, it probably has over 80 million downloads.Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Camila Victoriano, co-founder and head of partnerships at Sonoro. So Camila grew up in Miami as a self-described nerd with a passion for books and fan fiction. She then went to Harvard to study English, literature and history, which led to her early career, starting at the LA Times. While there, she became a founding member of their studios division and a “audio champion”. Then in 2020, she went on to co-found Sonoro, a global entertainment company focused on creating premium, culturally relevant content that starts in audio and comes alive in TV, film and beyond.Sonoro collaborates with leading and emerging Latinx storytellers from over a dozen countries to develop original franchises in English, Spanish, and Spanglish. Some highlights of our chat include how fan fiction taught her to see nerds as heroes being in the room when Dirty John was pitched to become a podcast, her crash course to figure out the business of podcasting, becoming a first time founder during COVID, why the Mexico audio market is like the US four years ago and why there are no limits to Latino stories. All right, let's get to it. Camila, thanks for being on the podcast.Camila Victoriano:Yeah. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here.Chris Erwin:For sure. So let's rewind a bit and I think it'd be helpful to hear about where you grew up in Miami and what your household was like. Tell us about that.Camila Victoriano:Yeah. So I grew up in Miami, Florida, very proud and loud Latino community, which I was very lucky to be a part of, in the Coral Gables Pinecrest area for those that know Miami and my household was great. My dad, he worked in shipping with South America. My mom was a stay at home mom. And so really as most kids of immigrants, I had obviously parents I loved and looked up to, but it was very different than folks that maybe have parents that grew up in America and knew the ins and outs of the job market and schools and things like that. But really great household, really always pushing me to be ambitious and to reach for the stars. So I was, yeah, just lucky to have parents always that were super supportive. Questioned a little bit, the English major, that path that I chose to go on, but we're generally really happy and really supportive with everything that I pursued.Chris Erwin:Yeah. And where did your parents immigrate from?Camila Victoriano:My mom is Peruvian and my dad was Chilean.Chris Erwin:I have been to both countries to surf. I was in Lobitos in I think Northern Peru and I was also in Pichilemu in Chile and yeah, just absolutely beautiful countries. Great food, great culture. So do you visit those countries often?Camila Victoriano:I visited Chile once, much to the chagrin of my father, but Peru, I visited so many times and yeah, they both have incredible food, incredible wine. So you can't really go wrong. I did Machu Picchu and Cusco, and that sort of trip with my mom once I graduated college, which is really great just to go back and be a tourist in our country, but they're both beautiful and yeah, I love going back.Chris Erwin:Oh, that's awesome. All right. So growing up in your household, what were some of your early passions and interests? I know yesterday we talked about that you had an early interest in storytelling, but in some more traditional forms dating back to the ‘90s, but yeah. Tell us about that. What were you into?Camila Victoriano:I was always a huge reader. It's funny because my parents read, but not super frequently. My grandparents were big readers, but I always, always gravitated towards books. I remember, like many people of my generation when I was six, I read the first Harry Potter book and that was just mind blowing for me and I think...Chris Erwin:At six years old? Because I think I learned to read at like five.Camila Victoriano:Yeah. I had help with my mom a little bit but I remember we read it together and we would just mark with a crayon every time where we ended on the page. But I remember that book was like, I think when I first really understood how detailed and how enveloping worlds could be. And I think starting from that point, I just went full on into fantasy, YA, all sorts of books. I was just reading obsessively. It also helped that I was a classic nerd in middle school and high school and all throughout childhood, really. So I think for me, books, literature stories were just a way to see the world, see people like me, a lot of times in fantasy books or in sci-fi books in particular, you have the nerds as heroes.And so I think for me, that was a big part of why I gravitated to those genres in particular. But yeah, I just read all the time and then I did light gaming. So I played the Sims, again, similar idea though. You're world building. You're living vicariously through these avatars, but that was really how I spent most of my time, I obviously played outside a little bit too, but I was a big indoor reader always.Chris Erwin:Got it. This is interesting because the last interview I just did was with Adam Reimer, the CEO of Optic Gaming, and we talked a lot, he was born in the late ‘70s. So he was like a 1980s self described internet nerd as he says, before being a nerd was cool. So he was going to web meetups at bowling alleys when he was just a young teenager. Over through line with you because he was in Fort Lauderdale and you grew up in Miami. So two Florida nerds.Camila Victoriano:Yeah. Nerds unite. I love it.Chris Erwin:Nerds unite. You also mentioned that you also got into fan fiction. Were you writing fan fiction? Were you consuming it? Was it a mix of both?Camila Victoriano:A mix of both. So that's really in middle school in particular, how I really bonded with my small group of friends. I remember my best friend and I, we connected, we were on the bus reading a Harry Potter fanfiction on at that point it was fanfiction.net. And that is also again, similarly because in person with people, it was just like, we weren't really connecting that much. And so that community online was huge for me and my friend. We read all the time, people had comments, you had editors that you worked with and we wrote them ourselves too. And I think, looking back in the retrospective for me, that's where I think I first started to realize the potential of world building really in storytelling and in media and entertainment. It's like, it didn't stop with the canon text. You could really expand beyond that.We loved telling stories about Harry Potter's parents and how they would go to Hogwarts, like super in the weeds, deep fandom. I don't know. I think for me that was just a real eye opener too, of like, oh, there's a whole online community. And I don't think at that point I was really thinking business. But I think for me, that's where I started to redirect my focus much more seriously too of, oh, this isn't just like, oh, I like books for fun. There's people all around the world that are incredibly passionate and spending hours upon hours of time, oftentimes after hours of school to just write and to really immerse themselves in these universes. And I remember writing them and reading them, just realizing how badly I wanted to be a part of creating things that caused the same feeling. And so for me, that was huge in that respect too.Chris Erwin:Well, thinking about fanfiction, literally there are now companies and platforms that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars that foster fanfiction, the communities around them. I think of Wattpad where you have film studios and TV studios, and a lot of the streamers that are now optioning IP from these fanfiction communities to make into long form premium content. Pretty incredible to see. So you go to high school and then you end up going to Harvard. I think you end up becoming an English major at Harvard. Was that always the intent from when you were in high school, it's like, yes, I'm going to go and get an English degree? What were you thinking? How did you want to spend your time in college? And then how did that evolve after you went?Camila Victoriano:I was typical good student in high school, right, but I think the older I got, the more I realized, oh no, my passion really lies in my English classes, my history classes. Obviously, I think math, once I got to calculus, I was like, all right, this might not be for me. And then science never really gravitated towards, so for me, it was always very clear that even though I tended to be a generalist in many things, my passion and my heart really was in writing and reading and stories and in history too, in the real world and how they intersected and how they affected each other. And so I remember when I was applying to schools again, my parents were like, are you sure you want to do English?Because for them, it was in Latin America, many of the schools don't have that many practical degrees like that. You pick something a bit more technical. So I remember I would tell them, oh yeah, don't worry. I'm going to do English, but I'm going to minor in economics, which never happened. Once I got there, I was like, absolutely not, but that's what I would tell them because I was like, oh no, I'm going to be an English major, but I'm going to have some business acumen to go with it. And I think at that point when I was going into college and applying to schools, what I wanted to do was go into book publishing. And I really wanted to, I remember I had seen that Sandra Bullock movie, the proposal where she's an editor and I was like, that's what I want to do. And so at that point I was talking to, we have this really awesome local bookstore in Miami called Books and Books.And I went and met with the owner, Mitchell Kaplan had a conversation with him. And I remember I told him I wanted to get into books. I wanted to get into publishing. And he's like, look, you're young, you're getting into college. I run a bookstore, but I would tell you, don't worry so much about the medium, just follow the content where the content's going. And that was a huge eye opener. Even though it seems now obvious to, sitting here saying that, I think for me at that age where I was, so it's easy to get one track mind of like, this is what I want to do, and there's nothing else, to get that advice from someone who was running a place that I loved and went to so frequently growing up.And I think that for me, gave me a bit more flexibility going into college, just saying, okay, let's see where I gravitate towards. I know I want to do something creative. I know I want to still study English, but maybe he's right and I don't have to just stick to publishing. So when I got into Harvard I still, again, focused my classes, really liberal arts, right, like film classes, history classes. But I was a bit more, when I got there, unclear of what that would actually lead to in an exciting way, I think. But that was probably a really great piece of advice that affected how I thought about what would come next after Harvard.Chris Erwin:Yeah. So following that thread, I really love that advice of, don't worry about the medium, just follow the content. Clearly I think that really influenced a later decision that you made about doubling down on audio. But before we get there, in terms of following the content, at Harvard, it seems like you dabbled in a few different things where you did an internship with the LA Times, which is maybe news and journalistic reporting. You're also a staff writer for the Harvard political review. So what did following the content look like for you when you were at school?Camila Victoriano:So Harvard can be a really overwhelming place. My mom had gone to college, my dad hadn't finished. So it was a semi first gen college experience where I was like, whoa, once I got there. It was incredibly, the first semester and a half were really, really overwhelming. And I had to get my bearings a little bit, but I think once I got there I tried to dabble in a lot of things. And I think there was literary magazine, there was the Crimson, which is a classic. And then there was a few other organizations like the Harvard Political Review at the Institute of politics. And so I sat in a few things and it's crazy. For people that don't know, once you get there, you still have to apply to these things.You haven't gotten there and then you're done and you're good to go and everything's set up. There's a pretty rigorous application process for most of these clubs, which makes it overwhelming. And so for me, what I ended up finding a home in, in terms of just the community and the way they welcomed you in when you came into the club was the Harvard Political Review. And as one does in college, you get a bit more political, you get a bit more aware of what's going on around you, world politics. And so I think I was in that head space already and wanted to flex a little bit of my writing skills outside of class. And so there I was able to really pitch anything. So I would pitch, I remember like culture pieces about the politics of hipsters, of all things, and then would later do a piece on rhinos that are going extinct.So it was really varied and it allowed me to be free with the things I wanted to write about and explore outside of class and in a super non-judgmental space that was like, yeah, pursue it. And we had all these professors that we had access to, to interview and to talk about these things. So it was just a great place to flex the muscles. But I think mainly my focus in college was building relationships with my friends, if I'm totally honest. I think as someone that's super ambitious and super driven, I was very particular and followed step by step exactly what I needed to do in high school to get into the school I wanted to get to. And then once I was there, I was like, let me enjoy this for a second. Let me meet people and have fun and intermurals and just...Chris Erwin:Wander a bit.Camila Victoriano:Wander a bit, 100%. And I think especially freshman year and sophomore year was very much like let me just wander, take random classes. I took a computer science class, which was a horrible mistake, but just giving myself the opportunity to make mistakes. And I think then by junior, senior year is when I realized, okay, no, I still like this path that I'm going on. I like the storytelling. I like literature. I like writing. Maybe I'm leaning a bit more political. Again, that's why I applied junior year for the LA Times internship because was that through line of, I still want to be in storytelling. I still want to be in media, but now in this college experience and getting into young adulthood, I'm becoming much more aware of the political and socioeconomical world around me. Let me go into media, that's maybe pushing that forward a little bit and a bit more public service.Chris Erwin:Clearly it was a positive experience because I believe that after graduation, you decided to commit to the LA Times full time.Camila Victoriano:Yes.Chris Erwin:And just to go back on a couple of points you noted just about wandering. I think, when I review resumes for people that are applying to my firm, RockWater, my first internship was right before my senior year of college. The summer before senior year. I now look at resumes where people start doing internships literally in high school, and they have six years of working experience before they graduate. It's super impressive. My little brother took a gap year before Harvard and I think that wandering around and figuring out what he likes, what he doesn't like is really valuable. And I always tell people, like my own professional career, I did some things early on that I didn't love, but I learned a lot and it helped shape to where I want to point myself later on. So I think that's really good advice for the listeners here.Camila Victoriano:Absolutely.Chris Erwin:I'm curious, so was there any kind of gap period, or did you just get to work at the LA Times right after you graduated?Camila Victoriano:I went straight into it. I took the summer after college to travel a bit. That's when I went to Cusco with my mom, I went to Columbia. So I went a little bit around Latin America, but other than that, that fall went straight into it. But I think to your point, and again, taking a step back a little bit like freshman summer, I went to study abroad in Paris for the summer. So just again, I had traveled outside the country maybe once or twice, but not a lot. And so for me, that was a really, I was like, let me utilize some of these resources that I have. And so it was, again, that wandering and then the sophomore summer I worked at a literary magazine. So again, going more deep into literature. So I did dabble in a couple things here and there before fully committing, but after graduating pretty much went straight into work.Chris Erwin:And so you get there and are you, again, working in the publisher's office?Camila Victoriano:Working more broadly, for the “business side” of the company, right. So I'm working on business development really broadly. What that started as was how do you diversify revenue streams? How do you develop new projects from the journalism? Basically, what are new ways to make money in a digital space? We pursued projects at this time, and I actually got to see through to fruition because I was there full time, an event series within what was called the festival of books. We developed a new zone focused on digital storytelling. So we brought on VR companies, audio storytelling companies, just thinking about how to expand what the company was putting forward as storytelling, which was cool to me.And also an interesting dynamic for me as someone that loved books to be like, let me throw VR into the mix and into the book festival, but it was really fulfilling, and after pursuing a few different things, developing a couple of platform pitches internally, what really stuck with our team and with me was in 2017, a year into that job, audio as a real business opportunity for the newsroom and for the media company. So in 2017, we had a meeting with the editor in chief at the time and he brought us this story and he was like, let me sit you guys down and read this aloud to you. It was very cinematic, but it was what would become Dirty John.Chris Erwin:The editor in chief read this story out loud to your team?Camila Victoriano:Yes. So just literally, it was a team of me and my boss and that was it. And he was like, let me sit you guys down and read you this out loud. And it was what then Christopher Goffard had the journalist had written as what was going to just be maybe a series online for the paper. And I think that's when we realized like, oh wait, there's something here that I think could be our first big swing in audio and in podcasting. And we got to talking and at that point, Wondery had just gotten started to another podcast company that obviously now sold to Amazon music. And so we met with [Hernan 00:17:57] and the early team there and we were like, I think we can do something here. And I think there's a story here to be told in audio.And so again, a year out of college, I'm there helping put together the production team that would create this massive story or what would become a massive story, we didn't know at the time. And what I was able to do was basically help primarily the launch strategy and help the marketing teams and the sales teams put together what's this actually going to look like when we got this out, there was the first time we had done anything like that. And so it was a pretty wild experience. And then of course when it launched, it took us all by surprise with how well it did. Obviously we knew it was a good story, but I think you never know when something's going to be that much of a hit. And I think today it probably has over 80 million downloads and it's been adapted both scripted and unscripted on Bravo and oxygen and had a season two ordered on Bravo.So it was a crazy experience. And I think for me, it was just like the ding ding ding of, oh, hey, remember what Mitchell told you in high school? Which was, follow the content, not necessarily the medium. And for me I had never really explored audio at that time. My parents were not people that listened to public radio in the car. That was not something I grew up with or that environment. So that was really my first entry point into audio and into podcasting. And as I started to dig into it more, I remember I was such a late listener to Serial and to S town. And I was like, oh my God, this is unreal and something that I've never heard of. I've never heard anything like this before. I probably never read anything like this before. And so I remember I asked my boss at the time, I was like, can I do this full time? I was like, can I just work on building out this audio division and this team? And I think at that point, luckily because Dirty John had been such a huge success, everyone was like, yeah, this is worth doing in a more serious way.Chris Erwin:Before we expand on that, this is a pretty incredible story. So you are in the room as your editor in chief is reading you the Dirty John story. So just remind me, with Dirty John, it was initially just a story. It wasn't like, oh, hey, we created this because we want to make this into an audio series or anything else. It was just, hey, Camila, you're looking at different ways to diversify revenue for the company, looking at different mediums for our content. Here seems to be a pretty incredible story. And was your editor in chief recommending that you make it into a podcast or is that something that came up in the room in real time?Camila Victoriano:No, I think he had already been thinking of it and that's to his credit. Right. And he was like, I think this might be it. And how do we get this done? And then I think Chris Goffard in particular is a great journalist. And he writes these amazing, more feature length pieces. And so his style of storytelling really lended itself to that as opposed to a breaking news reporter. And so he had already thought when he got the piece, this might be a good podcast or it might be our good first podcast. And I think he brought us in because we were the R&D crew of two that existed in the organization to really help make it happen. And so again, once we connected with the Wondery team and put the LA Times team together, it was a match made in heaven, I think. And it worked really, really well.Chris Erwin:It seems like you went right to Hernan and the Wondery team, were you like, hey, we should talk to some of the other audio and radio companies that are out there, or did you just go straight to Wondery?Camila Victoriano:We just went straight to them. And to be honest, I think that was something else our editors suggested. And I think to be honest, it did end up working really well because I think, we were coming from a very journalistic perspective and that's where I started to learn a bit more of the different ways to tell stories in audio, right. Start very character driven, really narrative as if you're making a movie. And so I think that it was a great match honestly, and I don't think we may have maybe looked at other things here and there, but it felt like a good fit right off the bat.Chris Erwin:You said you were working on the marketing strategy and the launch, right, of the series. Do you think there was any special things that you guys did? Obviously it's incredible story and it really resonated with audiences at scale, but were there any initial marketing tactics or buzz that really helped tip that into the mainstream?Camila Victoriano:I think what we decided to do, which was perhaps different than how some podcasts had been marketed before, because till then it had really been public radio driven, was I forget who said this, but it was basically like let's market this as if it was a movie or what would we do if we were launching a film? And so we really went all out in splashing our newspaper with these beautiful full page spreads. We were the LA paper, and so we had all this FYC, for your consideration advertising that would, you'd see those spreads for movies all the time. And so we were like, why don't we just make one of our own? And so it was a full team effort with the designers, the marketing team, me and my boss at the time and just putting together this plan where we really went all out.And I think that definitely caught the attention of our subscribers, which obviously were the first touch point to this story. And we did similar things online where we had, what's called a homepage takeover where basically everywhere you look online, you're seeing advertisements for Dirty John for this story. And so we had newsletters and I think a lot of that 360 approach to promoting it online, in print, although that's not as common, but on social newsletters and really just hitting all the touch points is something that definitely I have taken with me in my career. And I think is also just becoming much more common across podcasting as we launch and others launch more narrative nonfiction, fiction series, that sort of thing where they're becoming really entertainment franchises beyond just a really great maybe non-fiction or reported story. But I think absolutely the way we thought about marketing it helped to change the way that our subscribers and then the listeners that came in through more word of mouth, saw the show and understood it for, oh no, this is entertainment. It's journalism driven, but it's entertainment.Chris Erwin:It's a really good note because an increasing challenge for any content creators or content market is how do you stand out through the noise? There is more content across more mediums today than ever before. And so how do you really cut through the noise, drive mass awareness, but also be focused and really go after a niche community as well? It's not an easy formula. Sorry. I wanted to go a little bit back in time, but that was really helpful context. But then to the point where you said, okay, you're talking to your boss, your leadership. And you're like, I think there's something really big here in audio. I want to focus my efforts here full time. I also think this is interesting Camila, because when we were talking yesterday, you said that you took an atypical path in some ways where you followed the content, you followed your passions.It wasn't like, I'm going to go to school. And then I'm also going to get a dual computer science degree or economics or some quantitative math. And then I'm going to go do two years at McKinsey or an investment bank. And I think you following your heart it then puts you into these serendipitous moments, like being in the room when your editor in chief comes with Dirty John, and then you're like, hey, I've been working on these passion projects. I think there's something to do here in audio, let's go forth together. And then you just happen to be in the room at these incredible moments and then you're raising your hand for where your heart is telling you to go. And it's obviously put you on an incredible path, which we're going to talk more about. That's something that I'm just taking away here from hearing your story.Camila Victoriano:Thanks. That's a great way to put it. It's following my gut a little bit, and I think it just goes back to again, how I was raised and I think my parents were always, there's this funny saying in Spanish, [foreign language 00:25:29], which is like, if you don't cry, you don't get fed, basically. And so I took that to heart and like, yeah, I have a passion. And I think that part of me, the inclination is like, oh, if I work really hard, it'll get noticed. But sometimes it is like, no, you have to really actively say it out loud. And I think sometimes for people that are younger, like I was the youngest by like 10 years in a lot of the spaces I've been in, it's hard sometimes to do that and to raise your hand and say, I want this. But I think when I really felt that I did it and I think it's something I've just been working on in general.Chris Erwin:So you raise your hand and you say that you want to focus on what you perceive as a big audio opportunity for the LA Times. What does that look like for next steps?Camila Victoriano:Really, what that meant was I was the only person working full time on the business side, on this project, which was daunting, but also great because I got to have different touchpoints with all the teams. And so for me, it really became, how do I build essentially a mini startup within this legacy organization and how do we make something that moves quickly and can be nimble and can be experimental in an organization that, as I said earlier is nearly 140 years old at this point? So it was really exciting and really daunting. And so what I did first and foremost was figure out a good cadence to meet with my colleagues in the newsroom. And what it allowed me to do was really focus on offering them insight into the content that was really working well in the space that perhaps is maybe a bit more data driven, I would say.I was really looking at what was working well and also working with our data and product teams to see what were the types of stories that listeners or in our case, readers were gravitating towards and offering that insight to the journalist and to the editors and really working hand in hand with them to figure out based on that, what were they excited about turning into audio or what were they excited about putting resources behind? And so I was focusing a lot on content strategy in the very beginning of how do we follow up this phenomenon, which was also, I think for everyone, you have this huge hit, you want the sequel to be just as good.Chris Erwin:And to be clear. So the data that you're looking at is both in terms of the content that the LA Times is putting out. Like your articles, I'm not sure if you were also doing video as well, looking at who's consuming that, how often are they consuming it, is that type of content performing well relative to other content? In addition, looking at metrics for just podcasting overall, what genres are performing well, what do the formats look like? Is it short form or long form audio? So you are taking that for your own understanding and then educating a lot of the writers and the journalists in the newsroom. Because then when you put that information together, better ideas can start to germinate within your business. Is that right?Camila Victoriano:Absolutely. Yeah. And then what they would be able to offer me was insight sometimes into maybe investigations they were conducting, or they would be able to tell me, yeah, that is a great story, but maybe the sources aren't going to speak on audio. So it was a really wonderful collaboration between the business side and the newsroom in a way that was really organic and really respected the work that they were doing, but also offered them a bit of insight into, hey, we're exploring this new thing together. Here's how we might do it in the best way. And so I was doing a lot of that in a lot of that more high level content strategy, basically to guide the editors into figuring out what might come next. And then also just doing everything else, basically that the journalists weren't doing, right, or that they couldn't do because they were busy reporting amazing stories, which was building on an actual business model for what this might look like, which was difficult, because it was very early days and our sales team had never sold a podcast before.They had sold digital, had sold print, had sold events. And also marketing is like, how do we replicate what we did with Dirty John in a way that was sustainable and in a way that, how do we replicate that by tracking what actually worked well from that experience? Right? Because we could always splash all of our pages and flash all of our online presence with images and with links to the show, but figuring out how to basically make a report of what actually worked to drive listeners. And so it was a lot of in the very beginning, trying to digest and figure out what are the things that we could replicate and what is the “formula” that worked in Dirty John and others. Some of the stuff is hard to quantify and you can't measure, but trying to measure as much as I could to be able to build out a plan for, okay, we think we can make this many more shows and they have to hit these particular metrics. And I was doing a little bit of everything. Literally, like I said, my sales team or the sales team at the LA Times, they had never sold podcasts before. So I was literally calling podcast agencies and selling ads.Chris Erwin:You were selling ads yourself?Camila Victoriano:Yeah, I was. I remember I called ad results. We were doing a show about Bill Cosby, which is not an easy subject to pitch to sales, but I was getting on the phone, calling people and selling ads into the show. So it was really scrappy.Chris Erwin:Yeah. So essentially a one person team where you're creating the vision and the business plan and then also executing against it as well. That's a lot. Did you have a mandate from your leadership, which is like, hey Camila, we believe in your vision here, but we want within one year we expect like X amount of revenue or within three months. Come with a clear business plan and how much capital you need to grow it and then we're going to green light it. What were the expectations from your boss?Camila Victoriano:Yeah. It wasn't anything that specific to be honest, I think mainly the main mandate very broadly was like, Hey, this needs to make money after a certain point. Right. And it can't go on for so long of just, because a lot of people while making podcasts is cheaper than making a pilot, it's also very resource intensive. So while maybe it's not a lot of cash out the door, it's a lot of time from a lot of people to make something that is high touch investigative, like a year of reporting sometimes. And so I was asking a lot of the newsroom and the journalists. And so I had to work with our finance team at the time to build out a model that basically showed at least break even for year one and then started to make some profit after that or some revenue.And so it wasn't as super strict thing, but I think obviously they wanted it to be revenue generating and relied on me and my counterparts on finance department to put that model together. And again, I was an English major. I had never made a spreadsheet. I had never made a model V lookup, it was very new to me. All of that was the first time I was doing any of that. So for me, those next three years or so were an incredible crash course into all of the practical skills that perhaps I hadn't learned in the English major was those were all learned in that time period of building a business model, putting together business plans, content strategy, and then executing marketing plans and sales plans at the same time.Chris Erwin:So I have to ask, clearly your love and your passion is for storytelling, right? So now you're figuring out the business plan for how can you actually create a new sustainable business that's going to tell stories in a different way on new mediums. Did you enjoy doing some of that business work or was it more of like, eh, I don't mind doing it because it allows me to execute towards this primary goal or were you starting to see like, oh, I actually like using both sides of my brain, operating on both sides of the house. What did that feel like for you?Camila Victoriano:I think it was definitely the latter. I think I never expected to “business” as I had always thought of it. Right. I think there were certain things that I could really do without, I did not love sales calling and pitching. I was like, I could do without ever doing this again. But I think for me, what I realized during that time period and working with the folks on the finance team, our COO, our sales, I was like, these guys are all really creative and actually figuring out how this is going to work and how this is going to be sustainable is actually weirdly fun and interesting and challenges my brain. And it's funny to put it that way, but again, as an English major, as someone that didn't grow up with parents or in a community where people were doing really traditional jobs or working as high powered business executives, I had never been in that space.And so I think for me, the brainstorming of what are we going to do, what types of shows are we going to make? How is it going to make money? How are we going to make stuff that's meaningful and powerful and makes a difference, but also not go broke? That was actually really fun for me and really creative in a weird way. Business can be creative. And at the same time, I got a lot of joy from just sitting in newsroom meetings and hearing their stories that they wanted to tell and working with, call them creatives, but the journalists really.And I think that's when I realized, oh, I can be in this space. I can be in this creative space as a facilitator of all these people that maybe have the boots on the ground, making the stories. And I actually really enjoy the operational part weirdly. And I think my brain does like being in both sides where I can brainstorm stories and I can be a part of green light meetings and I can have my opinion based on obviously personal taste, but also what I understand about the market and at the same time, really enjoy putting spreadsheets together, which sounds so lame, but it was fun.Chris Erwin:Hey listeners, this is Chris Erwin, your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guest, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work. And it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it, everybody. Let's get back to the interview.I think you're hitting on a couple notes, which are important. So just one, I think I can just sense from our listeners, some tears of joy, we are calling finance professionals and the FP&A teams at these media businesses that they have creative aspects to their work. I think they really appreciate that, but I think it is true. And I think, look, I've seen this because I started after my banking career, I was very early in the YouTube MCN, digital video days. And there's all these incredible visions of how to build these new modern media businesses, but the actual business fundamentals of how do we make money? How do we have sustainable profit where we can keep doing this year over year? I feel like a lot of those big questions were not addressed. Now that's fundamentally changed 10 years later, but I think people with your mindset is there's a chance to bring great content to these new audiences that want to consume content in different ways.But we got to find a way where there's business sense here, right, where there's going to be money pouring in from partnerships and from brands or from investors or from the fans themselves. And that allows you to keep building, to keep iterating, to create something beautiful and great and different. So clearly you have a really sharp mind for this. This is a good transition to talk about how you ended up going over to Sonoro and meeting Josh and being a co-founder of that business. To tie a bow in your LA Times experience, where did you essentially eventually take the business before you decided to do something else?Camila Victoriano:By 2019 or so, we had launched about eight or nine different shows. They were true crime limited series, but also what was important to us was to have some more recurring community driven projects. We did a really wonderful show called Asian Enough with two of our reporters, Jen Yamato and Frank Shyong. And it was just about what it means to be Asian enough and how that question is something that they asked themselves a lot and other people in the community asked themselves a lot. And I think that's an in general question that I, as a Latina can relate to. So there was a lot of also really, I don't want to say public service, but really community driven projects as well that I was really proud of. And then also of course, we had Chasing Cosby men in the window, Detective Trap, all these really awesome, true crime series that were our bread and butter by the end.And luckily all of them did really well. They all would hit the top of their charts. A couple of them I believe are in development for TV. And I was just really excited to see more than anything too, that the process of brainstorming those ideas and of bringing them to life was so much smoother by the end. Our sales team was total pro that's selling podcasts by the end. Now they still have a podcast salesperson. I think what I was most proud of from year one to year three basically, was that it wasn't anymore a struggle to push these things through, it was very much LA Times studios as we called it was really embedded in the organization and podcasts were a real serious part of the business of the LA Times and still are.And we got to make some amazing shows. All of them had advertisers when they launched, which was again for us a huge success metric. We were able to sell things before they even came out because advertisers trusted us to make it successful. And I think that was a huge success point for me having been on those calls in the beginning. I feel like that's a little bit why too, again, making this jump into Sonoro, why after that point I felt good about leaving because I was like, I feel really great about what I've built and what I've helped set up here. And I feel okay that I can step away now.Chris Erwin:Okay. And so were you planning on transitioning out or did this opportunity to work with Sonoro come up and you're like, hey, this is hard to turn down?Camila Victoriano:It was a little bit of both in my head. I was itching for something bigger, a bigger challenge, how I mentioned LA Times studios was really this mini mini startup within a legacy organization. I had gotten the itch of building something from the ground up and feeling really excited about that. And so I think at that point, I had been at the LA Times total, including my internship probably for close to five years. And so it had been a really solid run. And I think I was ready to look for my next challenge and as I was in that head space, just so happens, got introduced to Josh through our mutual friend, Adam Sachs. And when I met him, I think our energies, just to jump right into it, but our energies really, really matched well. We met over zoom a couple times.Chris Erwin:And when was this Camila?Camila Victoriano:This was in early, early, early 2020. So gearing up for what was to come unbeknownst to me.Chris Erwin:It was right before COVID.Camila Victoriano:Yeah. Yeah. And so we had met a couple times and I'm a real detail oriented person. And I think what was exciting to me about working with someone like Josh was he came in and had a really inspirational vision for what he wanted to achieve. And I got very excited and felt very aligned with that vision and what I had been thinking about recently over the last few years, just being in the audio space and in media.And I thought, might as well go for it. I felt like it was the right time for me to do something from scratch, to take honestly a risk. And what seemed like a risk at the time, because I had been working in a very sort of traditional company that probably wasn't going anywhere. And in general, I think in my life had been pretty risk averse. I think I had just done everything the way I was supposed to do it. Right. And so I think that for me this was, okay, I'm going to take a risk. I feel like I've gained a lot of confidence over the last five years and a lot of skill sets and I'm ready for the challenge. So, yeah, chose to jump in it with him.Chris Erwin:Camila, what's the quick elevator pitch or overview of Sonoro?Camila Victoriano:So, Sonoro is a global entertainment company that creates audio content with the goal of developing it into TV, film, books, other audio derivatives, and our community focus is 500 million global Spanish speakers and US Latinos. So our entire shows are made by Latinos and our entire team is a hundred percent bilingual and bicultural.Chris Erwin:In terms of being inspired by the vision, were there things from the outset where you're like, hey, Josh, I love this idea, but here's what I would do a bit differently? Was there any of that in the beginning?Camila Victoriano:What I was able to offer was the experience being in the industry. Right. And so I think my eagerness really came from wanting to try shows that were outside the podcast norm "a little bit". We had done a lot of true crime at the LA Times, but I was really excited to try stuff that would resonate. For Sonoro, it's really our core consumer are the 500 million global Spanish speakers and the US Latinos. Again, I came from Miami. I'm a Latina. What was exciting to me in general about creating stories that were empowering Latino creators was let's not set a boundary about what the narrative that they have to tell is. Let's let them tell sci-fi stories, fantasy stories, horror, thrillers, that maybe don't have anything to do with being Latino, but are just feature Latino characters in it like they would any other sci-fi.And so I think for me, what was really exciting was pushing those boundaries a little bit and leaving that creative flexibility to the creators and trusting them and their experiences, knowing that if we really relied on the specifics of their experience and their story, inherently, that would have a universal impact. What we Josh and I talked a lot about in the beginning was the success of shows like Money Heist, and those that hadn't come out yet reaffirmed our point later in the year, like Squid Game and Lupin, that more and more people were consuming global content.That was, if you're a French person watching Lupin, there's probably so many inside jokes that I totally missed, but I still really enjoyed it. But they're going to enjoy it even more because it's culturally specific to them. And so I think that's what a little bit what I was really trying to push forward in the early shows that we made and still today of we can be really culturally specific, so that if we're making a show set in Mexico, Mexicans, they're like, oh yeah, this is really made for me, and I get this, and this sounds like where I'm from and who I am. But someone that is listening in the Bronx can still really enjoy it and have a sense of cultural community with the story, but it's more universal in that sense.Chris Erwin:Got it. Very well said. So, you align on visions with Josh, but you also have your distinct point of view. And then is it like, hey, within one to two months of meeting, you joined the Sonoro, and you helped co-found the company and build it to what it is today, or was there a longer [courting 00:43:24] period?Camila Victoriano:I think we literally talked on Zoom twice.Chris Erwin:And then it was like, all right, Camila's on board.Camila Victoriano:Yeah. I don't know. We just, we really got along really well and we clicked really easily. And I was like, I think this can work. I think we have a good rapport. We always joke, we're both Capricorns, so I think that that helps.Chris Erwin:What are the attributes of a Capricorn?Camila Victoriano:Very driven, very type A, very low BS. So I was like, okay, I think we can understand each other. So I don't know. It just felt right. It felt like everything was aligning. I was getting that edge to go and build something and start with... In general, I was just saying, I want to start with a really young team. That's what I wanted to do. That's as far as I had gotten in my head space about it, and then to get this connection from Adam, literally as that was happening, it just felt way too serendipitous to pass up.And also then to have honestly such an immediate connection with Josh of like, oh, okay, I think we can work well together, and I think we understand each other and how we like to do things and how we like to work, that still to this day nearly three years in is true. I think it checks so many boxes that I was like, I just have to, again, it was the first big risk I've taken, honestly; career wise or school wise, if I'm looking that far back. But it felt right, and it felt like the right time to do it. So I just went for it.Chris Erwin:Well, so it's funny that you say all this. I've known Josh for a few years now. And in terms of how you describe him of like he's very ambitious, very driven, very direct, no BS. Camila Victoriano:Yeah.Chris Erwin:And as I'm getting to know you, I get that sense as well. And literally just, I think we spoke for the first time yesterday, but I'm also seeing just how complimentary the both of you are in working together. So I think that explains a lot of the recent success that we've seen with Sonoro over the past few years, not surprised. After a couple Zoom meetings, you guys partner up and then what do you first start working on?Camila Victoriano:So the first year that we really started, and we really formally kicked things off, kid you not, March 2020. So it was weird timing. But really what we were first trying to do is test out if we could actually make things that people loved. That is all we cared about. We were like, can we make shows that people love, that people binge into the deeps in the middle of the night? And can we do it well? And can we do it at a high quality? Because I think that was important to both of us is in general when you're seeing, especially in Latin America and the US, content for Latinos, like traditional telenovelas, the production value just isn't there. And so that was really important to us. And so the first year we launched a lot of traditional bread and butter podcast, chat shows that really quickly climbed up the charts.Personal interviews, comedy, wellness, your traditional categories in Mexico specifically, and started to build out our network there really quickly, because I think a lot of the creators that were more independent there saw us as a reliable resource to help them grow their shows and to really be; for us, it was like, we want to be the partner of choice for any creator podcast or media company, executive director that wants to work and make really great content that just so happens to be created by Latinos.And so that along with let's make stuff people love were our two big mandates in the beginning, and it worked really well. Our first original scripted series launch that we did was a show called Crónicas Obscuras. It was a horror franchise that we launched in October. And that came off of a similar premise, which was Latinos over index and horror. We love horror movies, horror shows, anything. But most of the horror shows or movies that do really well are either based on European legends and European horror stories or feature zero to no Latino characters that, and if they're there, do they make it towards the end? Maybe not. And so-Chris Erwin:They get killed off early.Camila Victoriano:Yeah, definitely not the final character left. So for us, it was like, this is one genre that we know already has a huge gap in terms of how Latinos consume it and how it's being made. And so we said, this is going to be our franchise where we're going to tell Latin American legends, set in Latin America with Latin American characters. And so our first season of Crónicas was about these things called Los Nahuales, which are basically werewolves, but they also turn into other characters like snakes and things like that. And the show, we did it super high production value. We recorded with this thing called binaural audio where you literally have a mic that looks like a head and people can walk around it. And so if you're wearing headphones, the show, you can feel things coming up from behind you, but it's just because of the way that we recorded it with this special mic.And we had the voice actor who's done Homer Simpson in Mexico for 20 years. That was our big celebrity for that season star in the show. And the show ricochet up to number one podcast in general in Mexico. And it did really, really well. And that was our first success of this is an original show that Sonoro produced fully in-house, wrote, direct, production, casting, marketing. And we were able to launch it and people really, really loved it. Next few months after that, we launched a few similar series. The big one, of course, is a show called Toxicomanía, which launched in April of '21, which was, again, similarly mission driven, but always entertaining. It was based on a true story. A Mexican doctor in the 1940s that convinced the president of Mexico to legalize all drugs for six months, which no one knows happened.For six months in Mexico, all drugs were legal and you could get them in government mandated dispensaries. And it was this doctor's way of saying, hey, this is how we build a progressive society. This was an obvious one. Again, it's like the combination of our mission, which is, this is a story about Latinos, in particular Mexicans and drugs that you haven't seen before because when you think Mexico or drugs in media, you think Narcos, but this was actually something very different. But then what we did is we turned it into a really entertaining dramatic thriller. We were inspired by movies like The Big Short and things like that, where it was like it was teaching you something about history, but in a way that was really, really entertaining.And then we partnered with the actor, Luis Gerardo Mendez, who's an amazing Mexican star and really starting to come into his own in the US to executive produce and star in the project. And that show did insanely well. We launched it on 4/20. So again, it was the combination of mission, entertainment, production value, the right partner, and also a really strategic marketing launch of this is obviously a story that people are going to love and it's about drugs, so we're going to launch it on 4/20. And it did really, really well. It was number one in Mexico across Latin America. Number two in the United States in fiction, even though it was only in Spanish.And now we just announced earlier this year that it's going to be developed into a film at Paramount+. And so that to me is a perfect case study of what we really tried to do that first year is let's partner with the best creators. Let's make the best content and see if people love it. And I think we proved that to ourselves that first year, year and a half.Chris Erwin:When you entered the, call, the Mexican creator and audio landscape, was it competitive? Were there a lot of other production companies that were either Latin America based, Mexico based, or from the US that were trying to operate in that market? And two, follow up question, was there a sense of with the creators that were there, did a lot of them want to create in audio and to expand their creator ambitions, or was it something like, oh, we didn't even know that we can do this, but then after talking with you Camilla and your team, they're like, oh yeah, typically, I just create a bunch of videos on YouTube or whatever else, but I'd love to do something in a more scripted or [premium 00:50:55] or narrative form in podcasting. Let's figure out what that looks like together?Camila Victoriano:Yeah. I think in terms of the landscape, there were very few to none established. There were a lot of independent creators. So we actually are head of production; Andrés Vargas. He is this great heart of the Mexican podcast creator network. He was really a first mover there for sure. And I think we worked together really to bring on a lot of these early chat show podcasts into our network to kickstart that, but there wasn't a lot of established companies there. There weren't any. And so for us really, it was a mainly an education challenge, not so much the creators. I think there were, like I said, independent comedians or wellness experts that had already started to realize, oh, this podcasting thing is makes a lot of sense for me to expand into. And we focused on working with them, but really more so for the talent.So for our scripted projects is explaining that, hey, you don't have to have hair and makeup. You can just go into the studio for literally four hours and you make a whole series. And I think for us, that was how, especially when we were early on unknown, reaching out to these huge stars like Luis, being able to pitch it as this is still a really... And this is what I love about audio, right? Is like it's still, even though it's been around for a good chunk of time and you could argue all the way back to radio dramas and radio plays, it still feels like such a creative and experimental space. And I think that's what got a lot of the talent in particular that we were speaking to for our scripted projects excited, that they could try something different. This wasn't your traditional production, where you had to go in with a 5:00 AM call time.It was very much, especially in early COVID days. It's like you could do it from your house. We'll send you a kit. No worries. We'll do it over Zoom. But it was a lot of education really for them, for their managers, but people were excited. I think they thought this is a chance for me to play and for me to have fun and for me to do something different and which made the whole experience, especially of those early recordings, just really special.Chris Erwin:So going back to a point that we talked about with your experience at the LA Times, it was follow the content, but then figure out the business model. How do we make this sustainable? So what did that look like for you working with Josh and the team of like, okay, we found this incredible creator community. We have these shows that are becoming number one in their local markets and they're crossing international borders into the US and more. But how do we actually generate sustainable revenue for this? And what are the right revenue streams beyond what everyone just talks about for podcast ad sales, et cetera? So what was some of the initial work? What did that look like for you guys? And where does that look like going forward as you think about the medium and monetization differently?Camila Victoriano:Yeah, absolutely. I think in Mexico, in particular, again, it was all about education, education, education. And I think for us, since we focused that first year really on just launching great shows and making sure that they were hits, then our counterparts in Mexico were able to go to brands and say, hey, look, we already know this works and explain a little bit the medium and how to interact with consumers and how to write an audio ad. So it's still early days in that market, but we've been able to work with really amazing brands like McDonald's, like Netflix. A lot of CPG brands in particular are really excited about this space. And so I think we're really, the more we talk to brands every month, it gets easier. And I think where the podcast market in the US was maybe four years ago is where they're at right now.And I think we're reaching those innovators in the brand space that are excited to try something new and it's working really well for them. And we're getting a lot of people that come back, come back again because the audience for podcasting is the traditional ones that you see here in the US. They are younger, they have more disposable income typically. And so I think a lot of the brands are really excited about that. And then the US, of course, it's a totally different game. You have your direct response advertisers, which are the bread and butter of podcast advertising, but what we're really excited about is bigger brand presenting sponsorships, especially in our fiction series. That is where we're really looking to double down on in this year. For example, we had a show called Princess of South Beach, which was a 36 episode telenovela in English and in Spanish, and [Lincoln 00:55:02] came on as a presenting sponsor. And we produced this really incredible integrated piece into the content itself.So it was a funny telenovela set in Miami, and we created a chat show or a TV show basically like an Enews called Tea with Tatianna, where she was talking to people around the family that the show was about while integrating Lincoln in a really seamless way. So for us, it's always about thinking a few steps ahead of what's the market going to look like in a year or two, and how can we get ahead of that? And how can we be really, really creative about the way that we integrate brands, so that it doesn't disrupt the content; number one, but also it gives them better value and it gives them much more seamless integration with the content that we already know listeners are loving. And so that's really what we're focused on in the US in particular is those bigger integrations into, in particular, our scripted content.Chris Erwin:Camila, as a young rising leader, where you raised your hand and essentially got to be at the helm of what is the new LA Times studio division, where you're helping to tell stories in different ways. And now you're a co-founder at Sonoro. Looking back on your young career, what are some of your leadership learnings to date, upon reflecting of you as a leader earlier on, maybe a few years back to the leader you are today? What have you learned and what do you want to keep working on?Camila Victoriano:The main thing I've learned has probably been more about human interaction, how you work with people and how you build a team. I think at the LA Times in particular, newsrooms are tough, because it's the business side traditionally and over the years has never... hasn't always been super friendly. And so what I learned really well there and also building a team over Zoom these last few years is communication is critical. And over communicating and making sure everyone knows what they're supposed to be doing, why, and just offering up the opportunity to answer questions and to be there as a leader that listens to people and to listens to maybe questions they have about work, about their life. I think for me, that's always really important and something that I've valued from mentors in my life of they're there to listen and they're not going to... I was a very precocious early career person.I was always like, why is this happening, or what's going on? And I wanted to know as much as possible. And so communication, I think, is something that I always valued as a younger employee or as an early career. And so that's always what I'm trying to communicate or to convey to our employees now and to back then the newsroom is like, I want to be someone that they have a lot of FaceTime with and that communicates a lot with them about strategy and about what we're doing, what we're doing and gets them really excited.Chris Erwin:I like that. I run a lean team, but I realize, I can never overcommunicate. So things that I just assume that the team knows, the reality is that they don't. These things are in my head. And so every day it's important to just remind the team, what is our mission? What are we focused on? What were wins from yesterday? What are learnings and what are we maybe changing? That is literally a daily conversation. And I would much rather over-communicate than under-communicate. So I think that's very well said. Another point here is you now have investors. Yo

This interview features Adam Rymer, CEO of OpTic Gaming. We discuss what he learned from running Harvard's campus store, adapting to Napster at Universal Music, why entertainment doesn't value innovation, being on Universal Pictures' greenlight committee, scaling Legendary Digital and working alongside Chris Hardwick and Amy Poehler, how to create communities for gamers, why he plays Fornite with his son, and how to follow your own roadmap.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow us on LinkedIn: RockWater LinkedInEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com Interview TranscriptThe interview was lightly edited for clarity.Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Adam Rymer, CEO of OpTic Gaming. So Adam was born in Fort Lauderdale and was a self-described '80s internet nerd. That meant hanging out on internet bulletin boards and attending internet meetups at bowling alleys. His online passions paid off and he ended up going to Harvard after writing an admission essay, comparing entertainment dollars versus grocery store dollars. Adam's early career included Universal Music where three months after beginning his new role Napster was launched. And Adam had to figure out questions like, "What now? And who do we sue?" After rising up to the exec ranks at Universal Adam then struck out on his own to co-founder production company that worked on projects like the Rover and sci-fi hit arrival. He then became president at nerd and legendary networks where he helped build a multi-platform media business alongside stars like Chris Hardwick and Amy Poehler today. Adam is the CEO of OpTic Gaming, where he is helping to grow and scale one of the world's most exciting companies operating at the intersection of gaming and entertainment.Chris Erwin:Adam, thanks for being on The Come Up Podcast.Adam Rymer:Great to be here, man. Good to see you.Chris Erwin:Yeah. So where are you calling in from?Adam Rymer:I am in Dallas, been here about two years now.Chris Erwin:Are you in the Envy offices right now?Adam Rymer:We are. I moved here in the middle of COVID and we've been, believe it or not, working mostly in the office since I got here.Chris Erwin:Like to hear that people getting back to the office environment. Well, we're going to talk about Envy more, but actually want to rewind a bit, Adam. So going back a few years here, I want to hear about where you grew up and a little bit of what your childhood was like to see if there's any kind of glimpses into this media and digital executive that you've become.Adam Rymer:I am a Florida man. I grew up in Fort Lauderdale. Born in Miami, grew up in Fort Lauderdale, '70s and '80s which whatever anybody thinks about Miami and south Florida now is not what it was like when I was there. It was retiree paradise. And then the occasional spring break debauchery but of course, I was too young to really understand and appreciate any of it. So I just saw all these college kids coming in and thinking that would be awesome. And then by the time I was actually old enough to enjoy spring break, that it all gotten kicked out of south Florida and moved to Daytona and Cancun and wherever else. So missed out on all the benefit of all of it. But Florida was an interesting place to grow up in the '70s and '80s. Left at 17, never really went back, but definitely helped shape my desire to stay someplace warm for the rest of my life.Chris Erwin:Okay. So I have to ask you, what was your household like growing up? Were your parents into the same things that you're into now, media entertainment, digital gaming, gaming, what that looked like back in the day was very different, but what did your parents do and what were some of your early inspirations?Adam Rymer:My dad was a physician. He was an immigrant. My mom helped run the household. I had a younger sister who was six years younger than I. And so we were not overly close partially because of the age difference. And partially because we were just into different things, I was probably what you would call a quintessential nerd back in the day when it was very, very uncool to be a nerd. I got an Apple 2e when I was, I don't know, probably like eight or 10 years old and was goofing around on that with floppy discs and playing Zork and all the text base games and whatever else I could get my hands on. I remember connecting to BBSs back in the day. That was how I spent a lot of my free time.Chris Erwin:But BBS?Adam Rymer:Yeah. BBS was a bulletin board system. It was the modern, the old precursor to, I guess what you'd call like a social media network today. It was dial-in multi-communication platform where you could type and talk to other people and play games with people online, text-based games for the most part and south Florida, believe it or not, was actually the hub of some of the biggest BBS companies in the .country every now and then we'd go to meetups with people who were on these, these services, but you'd get online and play trivia and you'd play just chat with each other. And I guess back in the day, you'd consider it pretty weird. And today you just call it WhatsApp.Chris Erwin:So question, you said we would go to meetups. How old are you and who is we? Are you going with your parents or friends?Adam Rymer:Yeah. I was like 13, 14, and I'd have friends that would drive me around. We'd meet at like bowling alleys and family entertainment centers like arcades and mini golf places. And there'd be people from 14 to 40, but everybody was just connected through these online environments of being... At the time, I guess we were outcast and ostracized. And like I said, we were big old nerds.Chris Erwin:Were your parents supportive of some of your interests here with these meetups and the BBSs?Adam Rymer:Yeah, I mean, they didn't really know what was going on. For me, it was just a way to meet people and make friends and met some really interesting folks. Met some really odd, strange folks through it. Some people went on to greatness and do some pretty cool things. Some people faded off into obscurity. I think it definitely helped define and set my career in motion from being part of something that was just on the cutting edge of interactivity and technology. And 'cause there was a lot of steps to it, right. We had to, you had to get a 300-baud modem. You had to connect a phone line to it. You had to pay for time on the service by dropping off some money at a house or sending something in somewhere else. And I mean, it was really complicated, but we made it work. It was a weird time. It was like during the days of war games, if you remember the movie War Games, it was like that sort of universe.Chris Erwin:I've known you for years now. This is the first time I've really asked about your upbringing in your childhood. And within one minute, learn something completely new, but it makes sense. Everyone nowadays talks about how do you build community? How do you build fandom amongst different media brands, participants, creators, and users, et cetera? And you have now three to four decades of experience of building fandom on the internet. It's all becoming much more clear. So as you go to high school and then you're applying for college, what did you think that you were going to do?Adam Rymer:It's funny so we used to go to Disney World a lot in Florida, right? Because it's only about two-hour drive from where I lived. And I was always, I guess, kind of a weird business-focused kid at a certain level. I remember writing my college essay about Disney, but not about the cool entertainment factor of Disney about the business of Disney and how I found it super interesting that when you would go to someplace like Disney World, that you would be totally open to spending $8 on a Mickey bar ice cream that if you were just at a grocery store, you would totally freak out about highway robbery. You would just never spend that kind of money. And, I wrote my essay about like entertainment dollars being different from regular dollars. I did, I guess-Chris Erwin:So precocious.Adam Rymer:... I was a weird kid and at the time I was like, "I want to be Michael Eisner." Michael Eisner was my idol at the time not knowing a whole lot about anything, but knowing Disney and seeing how that was working, I was like, "That's my aspiration." Right? So went off to college. And at the time I was focused on engineering because as a nerd, geeky kid, I thought I was going to be an engineer, but within a year of college, I shifted over to being an economics major and really focusing more on business and really put most of my efforts into pursuing kind of game theory and business and economics.Chris Erwin:You went to Harvard up in Cambridge, right?Adam Rymer:That's the one. Yeah.Chris Erwin:So your essay must have been something special to get into that school. Right?Adam Rymer:God. To this day, I don't know how I got in. I'll tell you, I mean, it's my 25th reunion this year. I look around and I see other people from my class and I see kids today and I mean the quality of students and applications is just phenomenal. And to this day I count my lucky stars that I went there and got in there and survived. It was the hardest experience in my life. I can't even tell you, I felt overwhelmed half the time, lucky half the time. I mean, it was something.Chris Erwin:Well, if you're going to a reunion, my dad, I think is Harvard '70. And I think he's going to his reunion this year as well. So maybe you guys can bump into one another there. So you're at Harvard, you're feeling overwhelmed, but feeling lucky and grateful. And do you think you get more clarity on what you want to do when you're graduating?Adam Rymer:Yeah. Well, look, while I was there, I had my first real work experience. So we had this thing called Harvard Student Agencies. And what that is a bunch of student-run businesses on campus that are sanctioned by the university. And they let students sort of operate businesses through a platform that the university puts together. And I started out running something called the Campus Store, which basically sold futons and refrigerators and class rings and all the stuff you need for dorm rooms. And then my second year I became vice president of the organization. And one of the things that organization also did was produce the Let's Go Travel Guides, which might be a sign of another era, but it was books that you would use to go travel abroad and low-budget travel through Europe and other places around the world.Adam Rymer:And it was a team of hundreds of students that would write these books and go out and travel and run these businesses. And I did that for two and a half years of my time at school. And I found my time working and helping to run these businesses to be maybe the best education that I got over my time there. So by the time that I was graduating, I was pretty dead set on being in the business world, operating, trying to figure out some way to be an executive in some way, shape or form. Didn't necessarily know exactly what type of business to run. So I ended up going into management consulting, coming out of school because to me that seemed like the best landing spot, where I could get a sense of a bunch of different industries, bunch of different businesses, try to solve some problems for different companies and then figure out what I wanted to do from there. Or just do that for the rest of my life. Because from what I heard, that was a pretty cool thing to do.Chris Erwin:Got it. You go to L.E.K. Consulting in the late '90s. Was the experience what you expected it to be?Adam Rymer:So, so late '90s, I got to take you back a minute. I mean, at the time computers were still relatively, they weren't new, but they were not as useful as they are today. Everything was hard. The internet was slow. The amount of data that you had access to wasn't quite there, Google wasn't quite there. So I was building a lot of financial models. It was hard to do the research. We were printing things out on overhead projector slides for client presentations. PowerPoint was not as user friendly as it is today. I think I, when I started there, we were using Lotus 1-2-3, not even Excel. I was working probably 80 to 100 hours. I found the work interesting. I found the rigor interesting. I found the type of things we were doing interesting. I did not find the clients. I was working on overly exciting, and that was a big epiphany for me.Adam Rymer:I found it really hard to stay focused working for industries that I didn't have a passion for. At one point I was no joke... People say these things as jokes, I was working for a vacuum cleaner manufacturer, literally a company that made vacuum cleaners and I was helping them reallocate their sales force across the country. It was just hard. I was on the road and I was looking through maps and I was looking at different DMAs and I was trying to help them figure this out. I also spent a lot of time working in the biotech space, trying to look at different drugs that were coming to market and how they should be priced and talking to a lot of doctors and physicians about whether they would use the product and whether they would get approved by the FDA.Adam Rymer:And look, it wasn't my background. I mean, I purposely stayed away from anything pre-med I don't think I took any biology classes past ninth grade. The work was fun. The hours were rough, but not being passionate about the day to day subject was a real challenge for me. So about a year in, I was trying to figure out what was next.Chris Erwin:I hear you. I mean, I was a banker, right when I graduated from school undergrad. I think from like 2005 to 2010. And yeah, we were able to pull down 10-Ks and SEC filings, from the internet and able to get a bunch of financial information using Excel to create models. And I just remember all my MDs being like, "We used to have to get the 10-K's physically mailed to us." They didn't have Excel and they were doing modeling by hand on paper or in these really basic computer systems. And I was like, "Either that sounds terrible or it was better because you could just focus and do less." Where when you have access to technology your bosses just expect, "Well, you can work on five assignments at the same time." Right? You're equipped. But anyway, I digress.Chris Erwin:So then, okay, you do that for a couple of years and then I think you make a decision that instead of being an advisor and consultant, you want to go work for a company. You go to the line, quote, unquote, "some people say." And you go to Universal Music. So how was that transition for you?Adam Rymer:I mean, it was a magical transition for me. I mean, it was a happenstance lucky break for me and my career and the whole rest of my career, to be honest with you. And it goes down in something I think about still on a regular basis is having been a nerd. I mean, this goes back to the BBS story is I had built a PC. I was living in Cambridge. I was downloading the first MP3 files off the internet from really obscure search engines, like web crawler and LICOs. And I bought the first MP3 player that was ever made. And I would take this MP3 player to the gym and the use case for a portable MP3 player I found fascinating. The other options available at the time were a Walkman with a tape that you had to make a mix tape for, or a CD player, which for those who don't remember them, trying to get a CD player not to skip when you're at the gym or on a treadmill is almost impossible.Adam Rymer:And so I, part of me just realized like this digital music universe is going to be the way to go. This is just going to completely take over the future as the technology gets better. And I went to the consulting company I was at, and I said, "Look, we should sell a project to the music business and help them figure out the future of digital music, because there's no doubt in my mind that this is going to change the whole face of how the music industry works." To their credit they let me help work on selling that project and they successfully did sell the project. To not their credit they didn't let me work on the project.Chris Erwin:You can be the idea, the inspiration, create the pitch. And then it's like, "And you're off the team."Adam Rymer:So I left and that was the impetus for me leaving. I applied for a job at Universal and I was very fortunate to get an interview and then ultimately get hired to go join the strategy group at Universal Music in New York in, I think it was 1999, early 1999. It was a life-changing moment because the beginning in 1999 MP3 files and digital music was starting to be a huge subject of conversation. It was on the front page of USA Today. I was quoted in a bunch of things. It was something that everybody was talking about and knew was coming. But what nobody saw coming was Napster and Napster happened about three months after I got to Universal.Chris Erwin:Oh wow.Adam Rymer:So all of a sudden I was thrown into the fire with, it wasn't just me we had a team of people. But it was the, "Okay. Piracy is real. It's not going anywhere. How do we solve this?" Do we start suing the companies? Do we start suing our customers? Do we create our own technology? Do we create a subscription service, which is no joke, an idea that we presented at the time in 1999. What do we do? How do we solve this problem? Because it's not going anywhere and technology isn't where it is today.Chris Erwin:Follow-up question on that. Adam, did you feel that the leadership, did they understand the weight of the situation? Were they really panicked, very concerned or it's like, "This is an issue we should sort this out over the next five years, but take your time and be thoughtful." What was that sense inside the building?Adam Rymer:I'm going to answer that in a couple ways. I mean, this is a problem that I have seen throughout my entire career, which is that at traditional entertainment companies, the leadership is rarely incentivized to try to really innovate solutions to the biggest challenges that are in front of them. There's a lot of reasons for that. And I don't necessarily blame the leadership that's at these companies. A lot of them are publicly traded. They need to hit their quarterly returns. They're incentivized to hit those quarterly returns. Innovation is very rarely valued at these companies the way that it needs to be. Oftentimes they can buy innovation when they need to. Right? They're big enough. They've got public stock and if there's a startup, they can often buy the company that's going to solve their innovation problem. The difficulty in these cases is when you're dealing with something that's inherently illegal or theoretically illegal, you can't just buy the illegal thing and make that part of your repertoire.Adam Rymer:So the answer that was given was essentially like, "Look, let's let the courts figure this out." It was somewhat of a, "Well, obviously this is illegal. So the government should just stop this and get in front of it and shut it down because we have the right to sell music on discs and all these other things." And I think there was an inherent unwillingness to accept the fact that the consumers get to decide these things. Consumers get to decide how they want to consume content, how they want to live their lives. And ultimately it's the entertainment companies and the media companies who have to answer to the consumers on these things. And that's where I saw the biggest disconnect. And it wasn't just at the music industry. I've seen that through most of my career.Chris Erwin:Yeah. You were at Universal Music for about one to two years. So, and clearly had some early exposure to digital, but we're seeing that this is a theme from very early on in your career and your childhood. But then shortly thereafter you go to Universal Pictures. Why'd you make that transition? Did you feel, "Hey, there's a lot of inertia here, things aren't changing and I want to go to another part of the house," or was it something else? What was that catalyst for change?Adam Rymer:Well, for anybody who remembers the advent of Napster and piracy, also the crash of 2000 from a tech standpoint, just really killed the entire music industry. I mean, the music industry was cratering at that point. People were losing their jobs. Revenue was cut more or less than half very quickly. And I had an opportunity to go to business school. So I jumped and I decided I was going to ride out the storm of 2000 and everything else while I was in business school. And if there was still a music industry to go back to, I loved the music business. I would've gone back to music after business school, but between 2000 and 2002, while I was in school, the music industry kept falling. They couldn't quite figure out the solution. And I spent my summer at Universal Pictures looking at a another side of entertainment.Adam Rymer:So after school that turned into a full-time offer. My thought on it was the biggest challenge the music industry had was technology hit them like a title wave because the technology at the time had already caught up to the feasibility for music, meaning you could download a song in a reasonable amount of time to make it useful for the end-user, right? It only took a couple minutes, 5, 10 minutes at most to download a song, if not an album based on where technology was in 1999. When I graduated from, from school and went off to film the technology, wasn't there to download a movie, right? We were still a long way off from maybe not that long, but technology hadn't quite hit the film business in terms of feasibility for the piracy and the not having enough time to get in front of.Adam Rymer:So the way I saw it was this is an opportunity to get into the film business and try to help them stave off the problems that the music industry faced. How do I take the learnings from music and apply it to the film business and try to do some things differently here that we couldn't do there?Chris Erwin:You go there and you have a seven-year run and you end up rising to become I think the SP of digital for Universal Pictures where you're managing an international staff of, I think over 20 people across the US as well as London and Tokyo, if I'm right. Did you feel that at that point that you were coming into your own as an executive where you have a vision, you know how to solve problems, you know how to build the teams? And did you feel like that was a transformational moment in your career?Adam Rymer:I thought so. I thought so. It was the, "Hey, this is great. My career's really advancing. I'm at the senior levels of a major studio. I'm getting to present to some really cool people." I'm continued to have some really lucky experiences. Got involved in some very cool projects. I was always very much on the business side of it. I was pretty far removed from I'd say the creative side. It wasn't until the very end of my stint at Universal that I got put on the green light committee at Universal, which is where you actually get to have a say over which films get made at the studio, which was a pretty cool experience. Although it didn't last very long.Chris Erwin:How big is that committee and how much weight did your particular vote from the digital strategy side count?Adam Rymer:I'm not sure how much weight anybody's individual vote has, except for a couple of people on those committees. There's about 10 people on that committee across the studio. You've got home entertainment and marketing and production and the head of the studio and those kinds of things. It's fascinating. I mean, it's very kind of closed-door sort of, sort of setting very private, almost Illuminati-ish, but it was pretty cool to be in the room for some of it. But my job was to weigh in on what the digital and alternative revenue streams could be for the titles that we were working on. So things like video games, YouTube content, ancillary products. At the time we were talking about things like ring tones. What's the other stuff that we can do out of these films to generate revenue.Adam Rymer:And then I would be on the hook for delivering those numbers against the P&L for that particular title. It was pretty neat. And I felt like things were going pretty well for my career at that point, for sure. Now the downside was during my time there, we kept getting acquired. And for most people getting acquired sounds like it's a pretty awesome thing. Usually, there's like, "Hey, you got paid out. That's a big success, big exit." Well, in the big giant corporate world, those kinds of acquisitions usually get met with, "Hey, we're just kind of sitting on our hands for a while." So Universal was a big company. And when I started working for them, it was owned by Seagram. Then it was owned by Vivendi. Then it was owned by GE. And when I left, it had been acquired by Comcast.Adam Rymer:And we were always the acquired company, which meant that the acquiring company was taking their people, having them learn about the business that they were buying, meeting with everybody trying to figure out what everybody did, which resulted in a whole lot of work for all of us to educate them. And usually, that met with a whole bunch of reorganization and strategy redesignChris Erwin:Hey listeners, this is Chris Erwin, your host of the Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work. And it also really supports what we do here. All right, that's it everybody. Let's get back to the interview.Chris Erwin:So, Adam, I totally feel you on if you're always the target and you're being acquired the reeducation of the new leadership. It's a lot. I mean, I remember when Big Frame was bought by Awesomeness TV and then Verizon, and then Hearst then invested thereafter, and then Comcast NBC U came and bought Dreamworks, which had owned Awesomeness. And there's always the strategic goal shift, the mandate shift there's reorganizations. And there's a point where you're just like, "I just want to get to work." And look, that's the nature of the beast, but was that a reason why after your seven-year run, you then started to explore entrepreneurship? You were the co-founder and COO and CFO of Lava Bear Films. And you did that for a few years. Was that the reason why you made the switch?Adam Rymer:Yeah, look, I mean, there were management changes and to be honest, I had been part of a very big company where I was an employee number. I still remember my employee number to this day, which says a lot, and it was an eight-digit number. So I was just a little tired of being in that kind of structure and part of me who likes solving problems and actually making things happen and not having a whole lot of red tape. There was an opportunity in front of me. The chairman of Universal had left and had an opportunity to start a film production company and asked me to help him put the business plan together for it and raise some capital and go after it. So I thought it would be a great chance for me to not only learn how to start a company from scratch but also learn about the other side of the business, the creative side of the business. How do you actually make content from start to finish?Chris Erwin:Well, you must have been doing something right at universal if the chairman leaves and wants to bring you on board to his next venture, right?Adam Rymer:I would hope so. I would hope so.Chris Erwin:So you're there. You learned the creative side of the business, which I think is, I've talked about this on a few podcasts, right? Usually, in entertainment, you're either on the business side of the house or on the creative side of the house. It's rare for people to speak both those languages. I think of people maybe like Bob Iger or David Zaslav at Discovery in Warner Media. Right. So it's smart to build out that muscle and I think that you are an executive producer on The Rover and you helped finance the movie Arrival?Adam Rymer:That's right.Chris Erwin:Produced by FilmNation and [inaudible 00:28:25] and Glen Basner and they're good friends of ours.Adam Rymer:Great guys.Chris Erwin:Yeah. They're the best. And so you do that for four years and did you see like, "Hey, maybe there's a world where you stay in the creative side of entertainment?" Was that interesting to you?Adam Rymer:Look, it was an amazing experience. I always wanted to see how the whole sausages gets made from start to end and really got to do that. I was going around to film festivals. I was reading scripts. I was handling some of the talent deals. I was negotiating a lot of the financing for the films. We were selling the projects internationally. We were dealing with the studios. We were looking at the marketing for the films when they came out. But for I'm sure you've talked about this on some other podcasts the filmmaking process is very long and very slow. And so for me, it was I like being on the creative side of the business or having involvement on the creative side. But I don't know that filmmaking was the place for me to explore that in the long term, because I'm so used to being in areas where things move very quickly, right?Adam Rymer:Even the music business moves relatively quickly. And on the digital world, I was watching things happen. Snapchat was starting to happen and Twitch wasn't quite there yet, but YouTube was really starting to take off and there were all these other things that were happening in the background. And I just felt like I was missing some really cool, innovative opportunities that were going on. So I had an opportunity to go join Legendary, which was at the time a pretty cool independent studio started by Thomas Tull. They had made Godzilla and Hangover and King Kong and 300. And he asked me if I would help them build their digital businesses over there.Chris Erwin:Was it an immediate yes? Like, "Oh yeah, this makes sense. This is an incredible studio with some incredible IP. There's a lot I can do here. Let's get to work." Or were you evaluating other things too?Adam Rymer:I wasn't evaluating other things. And it was pretty hard decision because you this was a company that I had helped start and I was a pretty big piece of, but the opportunity and it was a blank slate. I was kind of handed a, "We don't know what the right answer is and we need somebody who's got enough experience on both sides of the equation here that understands making some content, understands distribution, understands the business side of it to really help us figure out what we should do with this asset that we have." They had just acquired Nerdist and just didn't have a solid business plan on how to start making real revenues out of it. So for me, it was a puzzle to solve right back to the things that I love, which is trying to put pieces together.Adam Rymer:At a certain level the film business has a very defined path, right? There's not much to solve in that. There's always new innovations that are getting made. There's new ways to finance a film. But for the most part, the business model of making movies is relatively defined. You might say that Netflix has changed that in some way, shape, or form, but there wasn't a whole lot of, "How am I going to do this for the next 20 years and innovate and do some neat things?" And at Legendary, it felt like there was a real chance to try all sorts of new ideas.Chris Erwin:When you enter their first year, they've acquired Nerdist and I think that was... Was that founded by Chris Hardwick?Adam Rymer:Correct? Yep.Chris Erwin:And so what did you think of, okay, these are the wins that I want to get in year one. I think that we are capable of doing this. It also feels innovative. And then I think it's going to set you up to have an exciting career overseeing digital at Legendary going forward. What was that first mandate for you?Adam Rymer:First thing was really figuring out how are we going to generate consistent revenue? Because at the time the video part of Nerdist was founded as one of the funded YouTube channels. Some people might remember that YouTube was putting a lot of money into funding channels for the purpose of creating more premium content on YouTube and right around 2014, they stopped funding those channels. And so a lot of these channels ended up in no man's land of figuring out how they were going to keep their business running. And so for me, the first step was okay, well, now that we don't have this stipend coming from YouTube every year, how are we going to find ways to just generate consistent revenue even if we're still operating at a little bit of loss, something that we can project to keep it all moving. So at the time we had the Nerdist podcast and we had some content that was existing on YouTube, and my first step was, well, how do we start monetizing podcasts in a better way?Adam Rymer:So I was able to take Chris's podcast and structure a deal with Midroll and that helped get us really kicked off with our first seven-figure deal, which let me hire some more staff and start to figure out some new lines of business.Chris Erwin:Did you feel like, "Hey, we figured out a digital revenue model here for media brands and fandoms built around big personalities"? And so did that then inspire you to say, "Well, let's start buying some other companies to add onto this roster"? Because I think you then acquired Geek and Sundry and then Amy Poehler's Smart Girls at the Party.Adam Rymer:That's right. So the idea was, well, if we can create enough of scale around these celebrity-driven community content businesses, then we can justify having an infrastructure that can support all of them the right way. So that allowed us to have a sales team that could support all of them, and start doing branded content deals that could leverage the communities that were built across all of them simultaneously bring some staff efficiencies together, and allow content production to be more efficient. So we had our entire... We had our own content production team. We had our own studio where we produced all of the content that we're making for the YouTube channels ourselves and for our branded content features. And ultimately that led us to start a Twitch channel with Geek and Sundry, which is where I started to learn quite a lot about Livestream.Chris Erwin:So do you feel at this point it's like, "All right." You're attached to a big studio, you have a lot of resources, you have incredible IP to work with, but you also, you're running your own division, which has its own P&L. It seems like you're on both the creative and the business sides of the house, where you have a real strong point of view of what content we're creating. How do we monetize it? What's getting green-lit? What new platforms are we experimenting with? You're building out a team against your vision. Did you feel like, "Hey, I feel like I have it all right now"? This is checking all the boxes for my career.Adam Rymer:In hindsight, I guess so. I mean, at time it felt very stressful. At the time it felt like we were building the plane while we were flying it. And there weren't a whole lot of examples for us to point to say, "Hey, we're doing it like these guys," or we've got somebody else that's done it in front of us. There were the MCNs out there that were aggregating a bunch of channels together. And they had a somewhat different business model, but there was nobody who was really trying to create more premium level content on a regular basis. And I mean, I had to answer to a pretty senior studio executive. So I had a lot of pressure from that side, but I did have the luxury of a good balance sheet. So I wasn't having to deal with trying to raise capital on a regular basis to keep the thing afloat.Adam Rymer:There was a couple years there where it really felt like the coolest, most fun job that I ever could have thought I've had. We were going down to ComicCon. Chris was moderating panels for us in Hall H. Got to go backstage and hang out with the cast of all the Marvel films before they got on Hall H. we had all sorts of fun people coming by the studio to be in the content, got to watch and be part of a lot of the content that was being filmed at our location. I think most of the people that were there at the time will tell you that it was a pretty magical place to be for a couple of years.Chris Erwin:I mean, I remember going to your offices a couple times during that period and just looking around at the different sets and the studios. And I was like, "This sounds like a pretty amazing gig, Adam." I knew that you were working really hard and that it was a lot and you were kind of figuring things out on the fly as you said, but I think everything in retrospect, you get some clarity of like, "Oh, that was a pretty cool moment." You know? And I think that was a very cool moment for you. And clearly, you learned a lot, which has bolstered your career. But I'm curious to hear you so you started experimenting with Twitch. I think that's just an interesting precursor to some of the channels and the partners that you work with today, particularly in gaming, similar to when you saw the power of MP3s when you were up in Cambridge.Chris Erwin:And then you saw how that was going to disrupt the music space. When you were first exposed to Twitch, did a light bulb go off on your head and say, "Hey, there's something incredibly exciting about the power of live?" What was that moment like for you?Adam Rymer:I'll be honest. I wasn't the biggest, "Hey, we're going to figure out how to monetize this immediately live streaming." I was the suit in the room on it. I had some people from Geek and Sundry come to me and they said, "We think that we can create a channel for Geek and Sundry and stream different kinds of content, just do some stuff out of our office. And we will minimize the cost that it takes for us to do it and we'll give it a shot. And they did it and they got it up and running and they spent as little as they could to create a set and livestream and got a bunch of equipment donated. And it was okay. And Felicia came on and streamed with it and that helped build an audience for it. And it was programmed. I mean, the thing that was most interesting about it was it actually had a schedule.Adam Rymer:There were shows that were on certain times of day, certain days of the week, it was a live-streamed TV network. Maybe one of the first of its kind. It started to gain some traction, but it was when Felicia brought in her friends at Critical Role to stream their Dungeons and Dragons game that we really started to see the magic of what live-streaming could be.Chris Erwin:What was unique about bringing Critical Role in live-streaming Dungeons and Dragons? What did you feel was special for the audience or to help amplify marketing? What was that?Adam Rymer:Well, I mean, what was amazing about it was it found a community that never had a place to call home. So most of Twitch was watching people play video games. There was some what you'd call today, just chatting going on, which is mostly what Geek and Sundry was. There was some game playing, but nobody was really streaming D and D at the time or doing things that were a little more creative like that in a meaningful, well-produced way. And all of a sudden this show found a home and started to spread by word of mouth and it had some great talent attached to it, right? Everybody who's on Critical Role is professional voice actors in their own right. And so they brought a level of confidence to it that don't think many people have seen before. And Matt Mercer's just a genius as a DM at the end of the day. So giving this community, which is spread out around the world a home one day a week, where they can all get together and share an experience at the same time, really became a magical place to be.Adam Rymer:So Twitch loved us because we were bringing in a community that wasn't necessarily there naturally again, because most of Twitch was more based around video gaming and the D and D community loved it because it was giving them a place that they had never had before. It was a little bit like lightning in a bottle.Chris Erwin:It just goes back to, I think I was listening to a podcast by Ben Thompson a couple weeks ago. And I think a point that was made is never underestimate the ability of the internet to reach these incredibly niche fandoms all around the world. There is interest in anything at a minimum, at least one person will be into something if you put it out there. But I think Dungeons and Dragons has this massive community and like you said, but they didn't really have a place to call home and you guys created that for them. I think that was just like so beautifully articulated. I love that. So you're doing your thing at Nerdist and Legendary you're there for five years, but then at the end of your five-year run, you go into this exploratory phase where you're advising a few different companies.Chris Erwin:I think you're reimagining cinema with a company called WeVu. And I remember being in your living room, having some brainstorm sessions around that with a few mutual friends, shout out to Adam Sachs. And then you end up as at the CEO, as of Envy Gaming, a big bet on the gaming space. How did that run come to an end? And then it kicked off. I'm going to make a bet on the gaming space. What did that look like for you?Adam Rymer:Sure. So Legendary sold to a big Chinese company called Wanda and I'll make it a short story. It was just the fit for me at the new version of the company wasn't quite the same as it was under the previous leadership. So I left and started advising companies that I just thought were really interesting and cool out there. Did some work with [inaudible 00:40:44]. Did some work with Participant. Did some work with ranker.com, other friends of mine that I had known over the years that I just had a chance to really help out here and there. And then out of the blue, right before COVID hit, I got a call from a recruiter about this position with NB Gaming. And as I've said, I've been a gamer geek nerd most of my life. And I've been paying attention to what's been going on in the gaming and Esports space for a long time.Adam Rymer:At Universal, I was responsible for all the video game work that was done. We had produced a couple games while I was there. We looked at buying a big video game publisher while I was there. So the video game space wasn't totally new to me, but the video game lifestyle space was a little bit new. And I had been following the growth of Twitch, the growth of what you'd call the celebrity influencers and creators that were emerging on the platform. And I had seen some of these Esports organizations. I hadn't necessarily known of Envy at the time, but I did know of a couple of the other ones that were out there. And I saw the potential, right? I saw the early days of a new form of brand and community entertainment, which was emerging on Twitch and other platforms because it was interactive. And when I started meeting the people that were here at Envy, it really felt like the next phase of innovation for me.Adam Rymer:And if you think about the path of my career, which has always been trying to find where's that edge of entertainment and technology and consumer behavior music with Napster and film with digital distribution and Nerdist with community-based content. This really feels like the edge of the universe at the moment, in terms of where the community is starting to emerge, where you've got a new generation of people who are not watching traditional television. It felt to me like this is a place to plant my flag for a while and see how I can help this develop.Chris Erwin:So you end up moving. You were based out of LA. Your family was in LA but the role was in Dallas. Did you just move there full-time in the beginning or were you commuting like four days a week in Dallas? And then back to LA on the weekends?Adam Rymer:I moved here to Dallas in the summer of 2020 having never met anybody at the company in person because we were all working from home. And my family stayed back in LA because of the pandemic. And I would fly back home every two weeks to see them. And we did that for about nine months while my kid was finishing the school year. It was an interesting time to be away from home and in a new city that I knew absolutely nothing about. I had never really been to Dallas before. I knew nothing about the city.Chris Erwin:Did you take on the role without ever meeting anyone from the founding team, the leadership, or the investor group in person? It was all Zoom calls and then you signed on the dotted line?Adam Rymer:Yes.Chris Erwin:Wow. That's a big decision.Adam Rymer:Yes. That's how convinced I was about the future of this space and also the people that were involved with it. So the interesting part about that period of time is I have a son who at the time was eight years old. And the way that he and I would stay in touch and I think this is telling to the future of this space, the way he and I would stay in touch while I was living in Dallas and he was in LA is we would play Fortnite together. Several times during the week I would get home from work, we'd both load up Fortnite and we'd put on the cameras. And while we were playing Fortnite, we'd catch up on how school was going and what his friends were up to and how he's doing. And that to me was the whole reason why I'm in this space.Adam Rymer:Because yes, we were playing a game and we were shooting people and we were like having a good time, but it was really just about us spending time together and talking to each other and interacting with each other. And that's what I think we're going to remember at the end of the day and not what skin we were wearing or any of that kind of thing, which to me shows how gaming is just the natural way of interacting and communicating for people today.Chris Erwin:That is so cool. I mean, I think about from our generations like Gen X and Millennials, oh, early memories of your father, it's like going fishing together, right. Going camping. And I think that your son, right, these like Gen Alpha, their memories will be like, "I remember when we used to play that old game Fortnight and we used to talk and catch up about our what was going on in school." It's just going to be a whole transformation of memories of childhood and with their parents, you know?Adam Rymer:Absolutely.Chris Erwin:I love that. We always say for us, you need to be where your clients are at. Tell our clients to don't resist or to be forceful. And I really like you're meeting your kid where he's at. If you look at the stats, we just did a big research project for a toy retailer of where are parents and kids independently and then also as a co-viewing unit spending their time online. It's on social media and it's in these big gaming environments, like Fortnite, like Roblox, like Minecraft. So I think that's pretty smart parenting, Adam. I am not a parent, but I think that it seems like smart parenting from afar.Adam Rymer:Absolutely. It's a new world. I keep trying to explain to people who are in a, I don't even want to say older generation, right because I don't feel like I'm old these days, but I'll just say anybody who's Gen X and older, we tend to use the word gamer, right? As like, "Oh, there's gamers." People are gamers and it's a misnomer now. It made sense for our generation because gaming was such a new thing for people to do. Not everybody had an Xbox, not everybody had an Atari. Gaming wasn't a natural course of business. But for this new generation, for the younger generations, asking somebody if they're a gamer is like asking people in our generations, if they listen to music or if they go to the movies.Adam Rymer:Well, you might talk to people and say, "Hey, what TV shows are you watching?" And there might be people who say, "I don't watch TV" and you're going to say, "Okay, well, that's strange. I mean, most people watch TV." But in this generation, I think we are increasingly reaching the stage of saying, "What games do you play?" Not, "Are you a gamer?" Because to me that is the given for this generation.Chris Erwin:I love that. Such a poignant point. Couple quick questions before we go onto our closing rapid fire. But when you got in there, I remember I'm like, "Adam, so what's your initial focus there?" And I think that you had a point of view like you've done at your other companies of what is the 360 monetization model? How do you take these teams, these players... How do you build media brands around them? How do you build fandoms? What is the talent-driven model to really take this business to the next level? If you could just tell our listeners what your initial re-imagination and growth vision for the company was in year one.Adam Rymer:A lot of it is applying principles to it at a certain level. What we do, isn't very different from other forms of media and entertainment that I've been involved with. And other people have been involved with in the past, which is we have a brand that has stature and meaning and association. It has a community around it. And through that brand and through the content that we create, we reach our users, we reach their eyeballs. It helps our brands and advertisers reach their eyeballs and it helps us connect with them. And so that's no different from any other form of media, whether that was magazines back in the day or television, or filmed entertainment, it is at a certain level. It is reach and it is scale. And so when I came in here first, it was really just understanding the dynamics of the industry.Adam Rymer:Where does monetization happen? What platforms does it happen on? How do we actually get in touch with these people? What kind of data is available? But then it was what are the assets that we actually have and what levers can we pull and what is our programming? So when you start thinking of the brand and your programming, you start saying to yourself, okay, well, I've got teams and I've got content creators, and I've got original programming that we put out. And you start looking at the pieces of your organization as what reach to each of those pieces have. So I've got this team and they play a certain game. Let's call it rocket league. Well, what audience does that rocket league team bring to me? Where are those people from? What demographic is that group of people? Are they mostly in the US or are they mostly international?Adam Rymer:What age are they? What states do they come from? What do they care about? What brands and industries are they interested in? And then I've got our call of duty team. Same thing. What reach do they have? Switch over to our content creator side. Okay. Well, if I'm going to bring on a new content creator, what's the audience that I'm getting from working with that content creator? It's not overly different. I mean, it is, there are differences in nuances, but if you are Discovery Channel and you're thinking about filling the 8:00 PM slot on Thursday, well, what are you going to put on in that 8:00 PM slot? You don't want to put on something that overlaps with another show that you already get that audience from. This is the whole definition of programming. It's the same reason why Game of Thrones and Westworld aren't on at the same time for HBO. They sequence those things because they want to optimize the programming and make sure that people stay subscribed to HBO for a longer period of time.Adam Rymer:So understanding your audience, understanding who's coming in, understanding the reach that you get with the assets that you have available starts to get the company thinking about us as a media property. And once you shift your mindset to thinking about it as a media property rather than necessarily a sports team, you start to build business processes around that in a different way. And that's what we're focused on at the moment.Chris Erwin:I don't think I've heard a smarter encapsulation of a media strategy than your past couple minutes, Adam. So very well done. So I'm curious in putting that strategy in place, just over the past almost two years, what are some of your favorite moments of some wins with the team? I was reading on LinkedIn. There's the Valorant Championships and the Green Wall, the Fandom really coming alive, having over a million concurrent viewers of the competition. Is that one of them? Are there others? What has that been for you?Adam Rymer:To start with our Call of Duty team won the CDL Championship within a month of me being here at Envy, which was mind-numbing. It's like, imagine joining the Chicago bulls five days before they won the NBA Championship, right? It's that kind of thing. And all of a sudden you've got a ring and you've got a trophy and you've got all this stuff and you barely started to understand what this world is all about. It was a pretty phenomenal moment. It was an amazing way to get indoctrinated into the space and get excited about it all. So now I've got a championship ring that's sitting in my office and that was a pretty fun, pretty fun moment. But yeah, about a year later, we merged with OpTic Gaming, which some of the listeners might know is one of the biggest, most passionate fan bases in the world when it comes to gaming and Esports.Adam Rymer:And that has been like wildfire for us. Hector Hex, just an amazing individual who's knows how to work with his audience and knows how to create content, and knows how to bring the audience into the brand in a really phenomenal way. And he's been educating us on a bunch of things that we didn't quite understand, and we've been working with him on some of the monetization things and just really couldn't have put two better organizations together. So within two months of bringing those organizations together, we won the Valorant Championship in Iceland, which is, as you were mentioning, had over a million people watching it. And just again, just another one of those too picture-perfect of a moment for us. Great memories that we're going to have forever.Chris Erwin:That's awesome. A final question for you is what's next for Envy gaming? What should people be watching for in some of the upcoming announcements, some new business initiatives? I think I was looking at from your team, there's some new virtual character immersion like CodeMiko. I'm pronouncing that right? Maybe some web three activations. What are you working on right now?Adam Rymer:What I think you're going to see out of us over the next year is really continued expansion of optic from a brand perspective, in terms of the areas that we're in. Just really trying to explore new ways to reach our fan base and build communities. I think the whole world of Web3, and I think a lot of people talk about Web3 without necessarily... I'm not saying I'm an expert in it, but I don't think a lot of people quite understand some of the dynamics of what makes Web3 different from Web2. And the biggest thing to me about Web3 that makes it different is community. If you don't have a community tied to some Web3 initiative, then you're missing it. I'll give you an perfect example. Web2 is about user acquisition on a one-to-one basis.Adam Rymer:So you've got a game like Candy Crush and you spend 50 cents to bring somebody in to Candy Crush and they spend a $1.50 on the game. You've made a dollar in profit and you can just keep doing that cycle all day. And you find new ways to bring more people in and you get a huge user base. There's a community that maybe gets formed online on Reddit boards and whatever else talking about Candy Crush, but the community is not an inherent part of what makes Candy Crush successful. In Web3 it's a little bit different. Web3 is if you bring somebody in, if you spend 50 cents to bring somebody to your Web3 platform and they get there and there isn't a whole community for them to connect to, they're going to leave. There's nothing for them to do. The community actually makes your project valuable.Adam Rymer:So in game terms, it's like bringing somebody in to play Fortnite, and they're just sitting in the queue, waiting for the game to start. And because there aren't 90 other people for you to play the game with, you're just sitting there and you're just waiting and waiting and nothing happens. And so it doesn't matter how much you spend on user acquisition, you didn't get your value for it. So we're going to be spending a lot of time on how do we build our community in new ways? How do we get the information about who our community is? Where do they live? What are they looking for us to do? How do we bring value to them? And how do we find partners that want to provide value back to our community? So how do we find those really interesting partnerships where we can take the Green Wall and OpTic and Envy and work together with those platforms to create really interesting dynamic opportunities together and not try to just have everything operate through our own vertical.Chris Erwin:Well said, something that we talk about at RockWater is the sense of valuing your community and communal ownership. I think that there's been a lot of literature over the past, call it year, particularly as you look at the building of different game franchises, where these users, their engagements, all the dollars that they spend on the games, all their engagement that can drive advertising revenues, right? And in-game purchases, the value that they create for a few stakeholders or investors or game owners, and it really gets siphoned to just a few. So the question then becomes, "Well, how do you reward the community for all the value that they're creating?" And I think there's actually a much bigger win there where if there's more of that two-way street, in terms of value sharing, the overall pie gets a lot bigger and everyone can win. And so I think that's a really, really smart mentality.Chris Erwin:Adam, I'll close it out with this before we get the rapid-fire. I just want to give you some kudos here. I think we were first introduced when I was probably at Big Frame and Awesomeness. So this is probably around maybe like 2015 to 2017 timeframe.Adam Rymer:Wow.Chris Erwin:And I know dating us a bit. And I just remember when I met you, you were running Nerdist and Legendary Networks at the time. I was like, "This is a guy who's a super sharp operator." He totally gets it. He's got both sides of his brain activating. I very much thought on the business side, on the creative side, I thought you really understood talent. You knew traditional entertainment, you knew digital. And I thought you were a very, very special mind and operator. And I remember when you were in your, what I call here in my notes, the exploration phase. So like after Nerdist and before you went to Envy Gaming, I think there was a period where you are wondering what really excites you. What's really going to get you going. And I think a lot of things that come across your plate that you weren't too thrilled about. And I just knew, I mean, I don't know if I ever shared this with you the right thing's going to come across Adam's desk and he's going to crush it. And it's going to be a really exciting moment for his career. Now I look back at all the success that you've had with Envy over the past, less than a couple years, and I am not surprised whatsoever. And I can't wait to see what you do there over the next two to three years. So I wanted to just share that with you.Adam Rymer:Thank you, my friend. It was definitely an adventure after leaving Legendary. There were points where I felt like I just needed to take something for the sake of taking something. I will wholeheartedly recommend people holding out for as long as you possibly can to find the right thing that feels right. If you can. Obviously don't sacrifice your family in your future and all those kinds of things. But if you can find the right thing, it definitely pays off.Chris Erwin:Very well said. All right, Adam. So we're going to get into the rapid-fire six questions. The rules are simple. It is short answer one sentence, or maybe just a couple of words. Do you understand the rules?Adam Rymer:I think so.Chris Erwin:All right. Proudest life moment?Adam Rymer:Birth of my child.Chris Erwin:What do you want to do less of in the second half of 2022?Adam Rymer:Less stress, more outside.Chris Erwin:Less stress, more outside. What one to two things, drive your success?Adam Rymer:Paying attention to everything going on out there.Chris Erwin:Advice for media gaming and Esports execs going into the remainder of this year?Adam Rymer:That's a tough one. Bear with the downside. There's still a huge opportunity in front of all of us, but manage this downside economy at the moment. And there's a bright light, but follow the path.Chris Erwin:Got it. All right. Last couple. Any future startup ambitions? Can you see yourself starting something from scratch in the future?Adam Rymer:For sure. Never a shortage of ideas that I've got. In fact, I think it's probably maybe a problem that I have. I am hopeful that I'll be launching something again sometime soon. We'll see. We'll see. if you got any ideas, send them my way, but yeah, definitely be starting some things soon.Chris Erwin:I think you got enough on your plate. I'm going to hold back on sending you too much, but maybe in a few years time. How can people get in contact with you?Adam Rymer:I'm pretty easy. It's Adam@Envy.ggChris Erwin:Adam. This was a delight. Thanks for being on the podcast.Adam Rymer:For sure. Great to be here. Let's do it again sometime.Chris Erwin:All right. That interview was just awesome. I don't think I've interviewed anyone in the gaming space yet to date. And I stand by my point that I think Adam is one of the sharpest minds that's operating at the intersection of content community in commerce. He's been in the business for a really long time who really understands the business fundamentals. And he's got an incredible set of stories. So a real gift to have him on the show, very excited for what he continues to build with OpTic Gaming. Okay. Also, as many of you know RockWater is market research and strategy advisory for the media technology and commerce industries. We've just introduced a new offering, which allows us to work with more partners. It's called RockWater Plus. It's an offering for companies who want an ongoing consulting partner at a low monthly retainer yet who might also need a partner who can flex up for bigger projects.Chris Erwin:So we've worked with a large range of companies from big and small. Big Fortune 50 like Google and YouTube and big cable networks and studios like Viacom, CBS, and Warner Media to a variety of digital publisher, upstarts and retail brands, and more. So with Plus, we do a variety of things. We can have weekly calls to address any immediate business concerns that you have. We can set up KPI dashboards that allow you to make database decisions around how to best operate and grow your business. We can do ad hoc research, ad hoc financial modeling. If you're doing market sizing need to do P&L forecasts or valuations to assess your business before you go out to investors and so much more. So if you're interested in this and you think it could be helpful shoot us a note at hello@wearerockwater.com. And then lastly, we always love any feedback on our show. If you have ideas for guests for just feedback on the format, shoot us a note at TCUpod@wearerockwater.com. All right, that's it. Everybody. Thanks for listening.The Come Up is written and hosted by me, Chris Erwin, and is a production of RockWater Industries. Please rate and review this show on Apple podcast and remember to subscribe wherever you listen to our show. And if you really dig us, feel free to forward The Come Up to a friend. You can sign up for our company newsletter at wearerockwater.com/newsletter. And you could follow us on Twitter @TCUPod. The Come Up is engineered by Daniel Tureck. Music is by Devon Bryant. Logo and branding is by Kevin Zazzali. And special thanks to Alex Zirin and Felicity Huang from the RockWater team.—Ping us anytime at hello@wearerockwater.com. We love to hear from our readers.

Amy and Julie sit down with Adam Sachs, CEO of Vicarious Surgical to find out how the company is going against an industry behemoth to achieve improved patient outcomes. Important Links: Vicarious Surgical: https://www.vicarioussurgical.com/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamdsachs/  Twitter: https://twitter.com/adamsachsVS Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Adam Sachs, an award-winning culinary journalist and magazine editor, is the brains behind Silversea Cruises' S.A.L.T. (Sea and Land Taste) program. But prior to joining the cruise industry, Sachs graced the masthead of several magazines, from his first gig as a fact-checker for Conde Nast Traveler to his time at GQ and as Editor-in-Chief of Saveur, a food-focused entertainment and culinary travel magazine. Through his written work, he aims to celebrate the culture of the places he's visited — and the people he's met — through the lens of what's on a plate. In this episode of Humans of Travel, the three-time James Beard award-winning writer reflects on his early career as a foodie journalist and some of the most meaningful stories he's written, from an around-the-world trip on a single airline ticket to a New Zealand escapade planned completely by the Kiwis he met along the way. Listeners will also hear Sachs' take on how the food media landscape has changed, and what he predicts for the future of travel and food journalism. And finally, Sachs dives into the ins and outs of Silversea's new S.A.L.T. program, an onboard and onshore deep dive into the culinary culture of a sailing's ports of call. Note: This episode is sponsored by Windstar Cruises. INSIDE THIS EPISODE 01:00 Meet award-winning culinary journalist, Adam Sachs 04:00: Sachs details his early life in Louisville, Ky. and a childhood that didn't include food experimentation. 06:50: Two English teachers helped Sachs develop his love of writing in high school. 14:30: Sachs moves to New York, and his first magazine job was with Conde Nast Traveler as a fact-checker. 16:50: Sachs shares a behind-the-scenes look at two past stories he's written: An around-the-world trip on a single airline ticket, and a trip to New Zealand. 21:50: Sachs reflects on how the food media landscape has changed over the years, and what the future might look like for food and travel journalism.  29:55: Sachs gives listeners a deep-dive on Silversea's new S.A.L.T. project and its components: S.A.L.T. Lab, S.A.L.T. Bar and S.A.L.T. Experiences. RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE Silversea Cruises' S.A.L.T. Program ABOUT YOUR HOST  Emma Weissmann is the Digital Managing Editor of TravelAge West, a print and online magazine for travel advisors based in the Western U.S. She is also the co-host of Trade Secrets, a podcast created with sister publication Travel Weekly.  TravelAge West also produces national trade publications Explorer and Family Getaways, as well as events including the Future Leaders in Travel Retreat, Global Travel Marketplace West, the WAVE Awards gala and the Napa Valley Leadership Forum.  ABOUT THE SHOW  TravelAge West's podcast, “Humans of Travel,” features conversations with exceptional people who have compelling stories to tell. Listeners will hear from the travel industry's notable authorities, high-profile executives, travel advisors and rising stars as they share the experiences — the highs and the lows — that make them human.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Adam Sachs and Leila Zarifi from CIPE's own Global Programs department join co-hosts Autumn Moore and Zoe Watkins on Democracy that Delivers' “Emerging Leaders” mini-series featuring up-and-coming change-makers. We explore their team's unique mission to incubate solutions for universal challenges, such as digital transformation and youth engagement. As young professionals themselves, Adam and Leila also open up about their career paths, from the obstacles of cross-cultural collaboration to the motivations behind their impactful work.   Featured resources: The Informal Sector: Facing Crisis On The Outside Of The System Investigating Intersections: Spatial-Inequality, Incentives, and Informality Steps To Help the Underground Economy Survive a Pandemic Public Perception of Economic and Social Reforms in Bolivia Corporate Governance for Emerging Markets Technology for Democracy Online Course CIPE Launches Youth Leadership Program Youth Leadership Digital Economy Guide Digital Literacy Training

Host Dr. Nick van Terheyden, aka Dr. Nick, goes on a Fantastic Voyage for Surgery with Adam Sachs, CEO of Vicarious Surgical. Dr. Nick and Adam cover robotics that advance capabilities to place the surgeon in the body, think Fantastic Voyage. To stream our Station live 24/7 visit www.HealthcareNOWRadio.com or ask your Smart Device to “….Play HealthcareNOW Radio”. Find all of our network podcasts on your favorite podcast platforms and be sure to subscribe and like us. Learn more at www.healthcarenowradio.com/listen

Amazon introduced its much-anticipated home robot this week, and it's underwhelmed the robotics industry. Mike and Steve share their thoughts on why Astro's future doesn't look bright. Listeners also call in to share their thoughts on the home robot. We also sit down with Adam Sachs, CEO and founder of Vicarious Surgical. Adam discusses the company's next-gen surgical robotics system, the challenges and keys to building it, and debuting on the NYSE. https://www.vice.com/en/article/93ypp8/leaked-documents-amazon-astro-surveillance-robot-tracking

Our guest: Adam Sachs, Co-Founder & CEO at Vicarious Surgical "Vicarious Surgical is empowering surgeons with visionary robotics." In this episode, we discussed: His background Why-how-what of Vicarious Surgical What are some of the benefits of robotic surgery? How will robotic surgery play a role in the future of healthcare? Going public What's next? ...and much more! Our sponsors for this episode are BlocHealth, Curation Health, ChenMed & MediTelecare. BlocHealth is building the ecosystem of services and solutions to power the future of healthcare. For more information, please go to www.blochealth.com follow BlocHealth on social media - @blochealth "Curation Health's advanced clinical decision support platform seamlessly integrates into the electronic health record and leverages more than 750 proven clinical and quality rules. With this intelligent point-of-care platform, you can power a scalable risk adjustment process and amplify quality program performance." For more information, please go to www.curationhealthcare.com & follow Curation Health on social media - @curationhealth "ChenMed brings concierge-style medicine and better health outcomes to the neediest populations – moderate-to-low income seniors with complex chronic diseases. For more information, please go to www.chenmed.com & follow ChenMed on social media - @chenmed "MediTelecare provides behavioral telemedicine services to residents of skilled nursing and assisted living facilities, using state-of-the-art telehealth technology. For more information", please go to www.meditelecare.com & follow Meditelecare on social media – @meditelecare To learn more about Vicarious Surgical please use the links below: - Website - LinkedIn - Twitter - YouTube Also, be sure to follow Slice of Healthcare on our social channels: - Website - Facebook - LinkedIn - Twitter - YouTube - Newsletter

Alison Eakle is the EVP and Head of Creative Development at Shondaland. We discuss how imagining movie posters makes her a better creative exec, being a co-EP on Netflix's #1 show Bridgerton, why she's racked up so many recent promotions, and being part of new Hollywood's most groundbreaking streamer partnerships. Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com---EPISODE TRANSCRIPT: Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Alison Eakle:I'll never forget there was... The current assistant had put out a job posting. And how this works in Hollywood is you'll see jobs on things called tracking boards or emailed chains, but they always say, "No phone calls, please. Just email your resume." Right? And I was like, "I'm going to call him." And I did. And I just called him and I was like, "Look, I did not come up through the agency feed. I don't have the required experience, but I swear to God the desk I'm on is harder than any agency desk you can imagine. And I'll tell you why if you meet me for like 15 minutes." So we did. We literally met in the middle of the lot at Paramount. He was like, "You know what? I think my boss would like you." Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Alison Eakle, the EVP and Head of Creative Development at Shondaland. Alison grew up on the Jersey shore, actually my same hometown. She loved the arts since an early age, traveling to New York City for auditions as a young teenager, but she was planning to give it all up at Georgetown for career in politics until she had a breakthrough moment in her screenwriting class. Alison went on to get her MFA at UT Austin and then had roles in some of the most exciting production houses in Hollywood, from Paramount Vantage to Columbia Pictures and working for Ellen DeGeneres. Then a serendipitous moment took her to Shondaland where her career has been on fire. Some highlights of our chat include how imagining movie posters makes her a better creative exec, being a co EP and Netflix is number one show bridging that where she's racked up so many recent promotions and being part of new Hollywood's most groundbreaking streamer partnerships. All right, let's get into it. Alison, thanks for being on the podcast. Alison Eakle:Thanks for having me, Chris Erwin Chris Erwin:Very well, Alison Eakle. We got some history between us. Alison Eakle:That's right. Chris Erwin:So let's go back a bit. Where did you grow up? What was your household like? Alison Eakle:So I grew up in Rumson, New Jersey, which is a bit of a towny suburb, as they say, in the Northern part of the Jersey shore obviously. Well, I grew up the only child of Wall Street parents. Parents who had met kind of working at Wall Street in the '70s at a time that I've heard many incredible stories about. And it's interesting because when I was eight, there was a big stock market crash. And my dad was all for Morgan Stanley and my mom inspired him to start their own company, a financial investment advisory firm called Eakle and Associates. And so it's interesting I haven't really thought about that a lot, but I did watch my dad face what is one of my worst fears, that idea of just suddenly everything kind of pulled out from underneath you and I watched them together kind of build something new. Chris Erwin:Did your parents both work for the company? Alison Eakle:Oh yeah. My mom was VP, he was president and basically it was just a three person operation. And my dad, he had clients that he would manage their portfolios, but he put out something called the Eakle Report every week and would have to find really creative ways to talk about the stock market, which Godspeed to him because I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole. I have no idea how to talk about the stock market. My mom ran all the logistics, taught herself computers at that time and really brought her up to speed fast. And they had that company for a long time until their divorce, which I have no idea what role the company played in that, but they definitely had it for, it was over 10 years, really successful. So that's kind of like what I grew up in. And I was very privileged. I came from a place of a lot of privilege where I went to private school. Chris Erwin:RCDS? Alison Eakle:RCDS, Rumson Country Day School, big shout outs, still very loyal to that school, that little short brown stone church on the corner. Chris Erwin:Are you still involved with the RCDS community? Like I have the friends from school I'm still in touch with, but I'm not giving back or anything like that. Well, maybe I should rethink it. Alison Eakle:No, I am not as involved as I want to be. I did have like a strange fantasy that one summer I'd go back or one year I'd go back to my 20s and substitute teach there. I don't know where that came from but- Chris Erwin:On the theatrical program? Alison Eakle:Yeah, why not? I'll do so. I love a school play. I love that. I love something roughly adapted from children's literature into strange costumes and children sputtering around on a stage, but it was just such a surreal experience because it was so safe, so incredible. I feel like that experience really formed me even from kindergarten on. And it was across the street from Bruce Springsteen's house. So what a quintessential New Jersey experience really? Chris Erwin:Yeah. I remember walking down Bruce's driveway on Halloween. He always would give out like the supersize snicker bars. Alison Eakle:Yeah. And [inaudible 00:04:44]. Chris Erwin:It was always like, we got to go to Bruce's house then we'd go to Bon Jovi's house. That was like such a fun thing. Alison Eakle:Yeah. That's very dead on. I grew up there riding bikes to the beach, just walking around the neighborhood. They're a very arcade fire of the suburbs kind of existence, but with the modicum of real safety that I so appreciate now and also again realize how lucky I was in a lot of ways. Chris Erwin:So I have to ask, your parents are to business, it's just funny to hear that. I just recorded a podcast last week with Naomi Shah, the Founder of Meet Cute, it's a new romcom podcast network. And her parents started a technology business based out of Portland, Oregon. And so it's just funny that now like a week later I'm interviewing you and your parents started a business together as well. There is an entrepreneurship vein in your family. So was there a theme though about your interest in the arts that came from your parents or did that come separately? Alison Eakle:That was from really my aunt and uncle. And look, my mom was one of those people who did leave her job when she had me, but continued to have that kind of type A excel at anything she put her mind to it personality. She was somebody who played the organ. We had like a Hammond organ in our living room now that I think about it. She had interest in music and musicals and all of that thing and certainly was very supportive of the arts, but wasn't necessarily kind of ensconced in it. Whereas my aunt had been an actress since the day I was born, my uncle had been an agent at Theatrical Agent in New York, but also run his own company called Cornerstone up until he died. And so for me... And they were much younger than my parents. My mom is like 12 years older than my aunt. Alison Eakle:So they were this cool young aunt and uncle really ensconced in show business. They took me to my first Broadway play Les Miserables when I was 10. I felt incredibly like I had a model to look at of like what would a life in that business look like. And I definitely was born with the bug and loved trying to get the solo in school plays or whatever it was. And eventually my parents did let me act as a kid and tried to make a go of it professionally. And I was represented at a now defunct agency called J. Michael Bloom. Chris Erwin:What age is that, Alison? Alison Eakle:So this is like, by the time I'm actually wrapped I'm 13. So this is like '93, which is a very awkward age to be putting yourself out there. But for whatever reason, I was really into it and loved it and had some close calls. I got to do a callback in a room with James Ivory for Jefferson in Paris, a role that eventually went to Gwyneth Paltrow, which I think the better woman won. They aged it up and gave it to her, I remember, but it was such a cool experience too for a year. My parents were very anti stage parents. They were like, "Look, you clearly have some bit of talent in this and you really want to try it. We'll let you try it. But it's going to be for a small amount of time." It was only like maybe a year and a half, two years and then you really do have to go back and focus on like high school if it doesn't click, if there's not for me. And I only went out, I didn't go out for commercials. So it was sort of- Chris Erwin:Did you take time off from school at all for this? Alison Eakle:RCDS was really lenient in the sense that if I had to leave at three o'clock for like an audition in the city or to do a reading for an off-Broadway play or whatever it was, I could be flexible, but come close as I may have, I never got the big part that would have necessitated the on-set tutor. Chris Erwin:Did you feel at an early age, a clear interest in the arts and that, hey, this is going to be my career, this is where I'm going to be? Alison Eakle:I think if you look at my life in general too, and we'll talk about this, it's so funny because that clearly was always had such a strong pull that even when I tried to divert myself to more stable or a prestigious academically kind of bent careers, like politics and things like that, somehow it would just find me again and kind of pull me back to acting, writing, performing, creating, that side of things. Chris Erwin:So I think it's good that Gwyneth got the part because you've obviously had very special trajectory at Shondaland, you are exactly where you are meant to be. Alison Eakle:That is very reassuring to hear. And I do tell myself that sometimes. And I do get to still read parts at table reads occasionally at Shondaland, which is how I scratched that itch. Chris Erwin:So you're acting in your teams, you have some representation, you're going out on auditions, I just got to throw this out there from the RCDS memories, for some reason this is so ingrained in my brain. I remember taking the bus with you I think after school and then going down, I think if I remember correctly, it was a stone driveway, a gray stone driveway. It was a circle. The school bus would go down that and we would drop you off and your house, was it a gray house or a white house? Alison Eakle:Yeah. A gray house and white trim. It doesn't exist anymore. It was raised to the ground to build some other crazy mansion, but it was an adorable 1920s house. Four fireplaces when I think about it. Good God. Chris Erwin:Wow. One of my earliest memories that is definitely imprinted in my brain and I remember specifically from you, I think you were a year above me. Alison Eakle:That's kind. I'm three years older than you. I just loved to hang out with... Chris Erwin:Yeah. So that's what I was going to say is that you befriended myself and my twin brother, John, and you're always so kind to us on the bus. So you were very interesting. You just had interesting points of views on things and we picked that up at a pretty early age. Alison Eakle was at the light in my childhood, but it didn't stop there. So after RCDS, I left that school system I think around third grade and I went into the public school system as did some of our other friends. At RFH, I think that's where we were reunited in a Spanish class. You were a senior and I was a freshman, was that Parker's class or Von Handle? Who was that? Alison Eakle:Oh, maybe it was Von Handle actually, now that I think about it, but I couldn't remember her name. I just remember she had great hair, like a really perfect... So what did happen was I took French from third grade forward. And then in high school I had done the AP and I was like, I sort of want to start another language when I might have a chance of speaking on a daily basis. And so I started Spanish as a junior, but it was hilarious to be... It was my only experience of being the lone senior in a class full of freshmen. It was such a blast and such a different perspective on things at that point in my life. I was so happy to be in it with you. And it was Adam Sachs too. Chris Erwin:It was Adam Sachs. Maybe John Waters was in there. Alison Eakle:Yeah. Waters 100%. And we had to make a video. I'll never forget this. We had to make a video project for the class. I forget who else was on my team, but there was like a surfer kid named Ryan. And we stormed at his house and I was just like, I'm 18 years old at this point just making a weird Spanish video with a bunch of freshmen in it, but it was great. I felt like I really loved that experience. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Very on theme again, a little bit older hanging out with the younger kids, we enjoyed it. There's something in the water, I think from like the Rumson Monmouth County area for Hollywood, because it's a bunch of people from the East Coast, but then Adam Sachs is running Team Coco, Conan O'Brien, you Andy Redmond running Tornante under Michael Eisner, you're at Shondaland doing a thing, Matt Warshauer another friend is a writer and- Alison Eakle:A really talented writer. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Impressive creator. And then I'm trying to do my thing at RockWater in New Media. So there's a crew of us out here together. Alison Eakle:It was probably the biggest surprise to me when I got here is how many people from growing up in New Jersey are out here, both from that experience, the experience we shared, but also somehow or another, we convinced a lot of people to leave New York when we first came out here in the mid 2000s. And we have a really... I always thought it would be kind of my film school crew that would, and there's a lot of them, the Austin Kids out here too, Austin, Texas, but tons of Jersey people. Chris Erwin:So after high school, the arts theme continues. You go to Georgetown, did you run a TV station there? Alison Eakle:Yeah. Well, it's so funny. I went there, again, trying to do like the sensible thing. I was like, I'm going to be in politics and urban development. And I had a real tracy flick then to me of like, I'm going to be the mayor of the city. And then I got into those classes and was sort of put off by the approach that the other students had to government and the idea that everybody was obviously in this kind of self aggrandized way. And I realized, oh, that's not maybe my jam. I'm not here to prove how much I know about how many congressmen are from which districts or what have you. I really wanted to affect change on a local level. Of course, part of its insane ambition. I don't think anyone decides to go into politics without being a little amped up about that and being like, I think I'm pretty great. Alison Eakle:I absolutely had that threat, but I felt so kind of outpaced by my classmates in terms of their ambition and I started to question if it was for me. And then weirdly enough, it was a sophomore class, a screenwriting class I took with a professor named John Glavin. And at that time, he had mentored Jonah Nolan who at that point had made Memento with his brother and suddenly I had, yet again, a model to look at him like, oh, somebody in a class just like this with this man as their professor broke through. Right? Obviously he has incredible talent. And that stuff can't be taught, but it was like suddenly I could at least see a path sort of. That same year, I think my sophomore year Georgetown University Television, the finest closer television channel in the land was starting on campus, and I realized, oh, that seems like fun. Alison Eakle:And my first show that I produced and sometimes hosted with Aaron Cocce and Brian Walsh, was it called G Talk Live? And I even forget all that I did. It was sort of a running gun, all hands on deck, but it's like a live call-in show, a talk show, panel show for the campus. And I'll never forget they were like, "Alison, do you want to host a very special episode?" And I said, "Of course, I do." About one of the most pressing topics out there, Dawson's Creek. So that was my big contribution, but I loved it. And I stayed with the television station all three years. And at my senior year, we sponsored like a film festival and the films were incredible. And you think back it was... I looked at a program I'd kept from maybe six years ago when I was moving and it's like, Zal Batmangli, creator of The OA along with Brit Marling, the two of them had made one of the shorts and contention and Mike Cahill and Brit Marling had also collaborated in a way that would pre-stage their collaborations on another earth. Alison Eakle:And it was kind of incredible because I look back and I see that drive. I see all of these people who actually were trying to carve out a space at a school maybe not known for people who are going to forge a path in TV and film doing so, but also it was like Mike Birbiglia and Nick Kroll, John Mulaney were all my contemporaries as well. So also seeing a real comedy scene evolve, I feel like again, very lucky and they're at the right time in terms of it was in the zeitgeists of again, getting to look at people really trying to forge that path in a way that I had not seen before. Chris Erwin:And then you felt, I think, empowered. It's like, I can do this. Like that screen writing class was a spark for you. It's like, fine, this is what I'm going to pursue. I came here for political science and different reasons, but that's now changed. Alison Eakle:Yeah. I'm so glad I decided to try it and listen. And again, at that point I'd let go of the acting thing, even though I would still occasionally act in like one act plays that friends would write or things like that. But I do think the acting informed the love of writing, which in turn, all of that feeds the work that I do now, essentially because I think as a creative executive, I do look at everything through the lens of, okay, I know what it's like to sit and stare at a blank page now with that cursor blinking and understanding kind of how do you generate something from nothing, how do you riff on ideas to try to get through a piece of writer's block, all of that. Alison Eakle:But I also approach things in terms of like, when I read a script, I do think to myself, do I want to play that role? Because I know that if I have that instinct of like, oh my God, I wish I want to say these words, I wish I could play that part, you're onto something at that point. That is a really good sign that somebody has created something worth making. Chris Erwin:Because you have an acting background, you can empathize with the words on the page and you could have a vision for how the words will manifest. Alison Eakle:It's almost like first, it's a different way that informs decision-making, right? Because in terms of creatively, the big question is like, what do you love enough that you would actually spend years of your life working on? And I think, again, that's one thing that goes, I can really appreciate when a piece of writing is going to appeal to an actor. Like in this business too, so much of it is who's going to fill this role, especially in TV so often if you're not going with an already established huge star, you need to find a person who can really become that role. Especially when there's a breakout hit and an actor has really been a part of creating that role with the writer, that follows them for the rest of their life. People always think of them in some ways as that person. Alison Eakle:So I do try to think of like, are there iconic roles in this that somebody would really dig into that would get me excited that way? And similarly, actually the writing piece of it comes into mind too, because if I read a pilot or something, but I found something worth pursuing and talking about it, if my head's already like, oh my God, I can see episodes, I know what I'd want to watch and want to see in the show, so that's the writer part of me thinking like, oh my God, if I had to pitch ideas for it, I could, that's really promising. So it's definitely stuff that that background I think does inform the work I do. Chris Erwin:Got it. As I'm listening to you, Alison, I'm hearing the passion come out from you. So I think you said you no longer act, but you really enjoy the table reads that you do with the Shondaland team. Do you think that there might be a future where you might see a script and you're inspired to be like, "You know what? I want to go do a one woman show. I'm going to join a small private troop." Is that something that either maybe you're doing now or that's like seated in your brain? Alison Eakle:It's something that I still do for friends. Like we'll still do writer's table reads together and things like that. I don't think I would rule out the idea of doing some kind of acting with friends on a project. I don't think it's going to be generated by me. I don't think I'm going to be the one to push it forward, but I think that if an opportunity presented itself, it would be really fun. And I actually love the idea of like voiceover, that idea of doing that kind of work too, because I give real actors steeped in their craft so much credit because the way you make yourself so vulnerable reading at a table read or doing a piece of voiceover where I can kind of hide behind, not be on camera and not be seen, that's more appealing to me now than leaving it all on the stage every night or really exposing myself fully on a show or a film and just emotionally, physically all of these things. I think that stuff's incredibly scary and every time I see actors go for it, I'm just standing out. Chris Erwin:Shondaland launched an audio business and maybe scripted audio is in your future. You could do some of that. You just- Alison Eakle:I'm going to ask Sandy Bailey if I can audition for some of those pieces. That's right. Chris Erwin:All right, cool. I want to flow into your early career, but so after Georgetown, you end up getting your MFA at UT Austin. So from there I think you go to New York for around six months and then you transition to LA if that's right. Tell us quickly, what was that journey from being at UT Austin, one or two key themes from that and then the beginning of your journey in Hollywood thereafter? Alison Eakle:I just was interviewed about my time at UT Austin. And I think the thing that's so crazy about it, that was a big takeaway was do not let your program define you because when I got there, it was just an MA screenwriting program. It became an MFA screenwriting program. But I think there was this kind of a mentality sometimes like we were the weird step-kids of like the film program, but also the really prestigious writing, the James Michener program that is for like novelists, poets, playwrights. So it's like a multi-disciplinary incredibly competitive workshop. Two years, they pay you. It was easy sometimes to feel a little less than, but then as time got going and I just fell in love with a couple of professors, I started like working on short films with people. I was a TA. Speaking of hanging out with younger kids and being a TA as a grad student, I can't tell you how many of my former students are also out here killing it and just absolutely running shit. Alison Eakle:And it blows my mind that I ever thought I could teach them anything like run indie film divisions of agencies. I really did start to just make my experience what I thought it could be as opposed to just be like, well, I'm just an MFA screen writing student. It was great. It was a great experience. I lived with law students instead. So that kind of exposed me to a whole different way of experiencing UT. They worked hard in the party tag, Chris, I will say that. That was my Austin experience. And I wound up working for Burnt Orange Productions, which is this company that had like a really cool experiment at hand where they were making low budget indie features like one was Elvis and Annabelle, starring a very young Blake Lively and Max Minghella. And that's the one, when I was there, they were making. Chris Erwin:So then thereafter, did you have a more specific lane of knowing where you wanted to go and what exactly you were going to do? How does that get you to, I think, was a pretty transformational role, which was at Paramount Vantage. Alison Eakle:It's so funny, but I really thought I was going to just be a screenwriter. My best friend, Ashley, who is now a show runner in her own right with her husband, she was finishing film school at Columbia. So the only reason I did that six months stint in New York was because A, growing up in Jersey and looking at New York is like the city. It just felt like I have to live in New York at some point. And so many of my good friends are there, I just want to have that experience. So I thought I might stay, that there might be a way to make it work, but New York is hard and expensive and it's even more so now an impossible place to live. But even in 2006, it's like, I'd worked Monday through Friday as like an assistant in an advertising agency and then Saturdays and Sundays, I would like go to Bronx Science and other schools in the city to teach SAT prep. Alison Eakle:So I was truly working seven days a week and still hardly getting by and I didn't even have to pay rent because I was just crashing with my friend. Her boyfriend, now husband, had moved out to LA in kind of October of '06 and we started processing and thinking about it could we really make this trip? I'm like, could I really break my mother's heart and move across the country? And eventually realized that if this is really what we wanted to do was to be screenwriters, it really did feel like we had to be in LA. And so we did it together with her two cats and her two goldfish and a Toyota Corolla. Chris Erwin:Two women, two cats, two goldfish, two Corollas. Alison Eakle:Yeah. Two of everything. One of the cats shit himself as we were crossing Arkansas. And there was a very uncomfortable gas station interaction with some locals and that cat and trying to get that cat out of the carrier of the car, but look, all worth it. The two fish died immediately when we put them in LA water, a very foreboding omen. New York was just, I knew in some way I wanted to get a chance to have an adventure with Ashley, collaborate with her potentially and we wound up moving out to LA together. Chris Erwin:Similar to you, after graduating from school in Boston, I was like, "Yeah, I got to go to New York." That's like what... You're in the tri-state area, big exciting visions. And then the fact that I can go down to the shore and see my family on like an hour train ride or the ferry that had just started to emerge. And I got stuck there for five years in finance. So you only got stuck for six months, I probably took like 10 years off my life doing finance in New York City. But you got out and so you make the move, you get to LA and then you end up at Paramount Vantage and you do a few things before that. Alison Eakle:And one really formative job. So basically I get there, I go to a temp agency my show business actors aunt had connected me with and I'm like, "Let me do a typing test. Let me show you I can use Excel." And I got a job that was temp to perm, potentially assisting a woman named Nancy Gallagher, who was an EVP of marketing at Paramount Pictures. And this woman was like close personal friends with Steven Spielberg and Joel Schumacher and Tom Cruise. Like she had done marketing campaigns for movies that had shaped my teen years, like Clueless and Titanic. Like I lost my mind when I realized really the impact she had had. She was also incredibly old-school, did not use a computer at the time. It was a kind of a wild experience. I would be there 8:00 AM to 8:00 PM. I would never leave the desk. I would take dictation. I would read her an email she got. She would dictate an answer back to me and I would type it back to the person. Chris Erwin:This is 2007? Alison Eakle:Oh yeah, don't worry about it, Chris. But she was incredible. I mean, she was an incredible talent. She just was sort of like had not kind of embraced that part of the job and was just deep in the creative. I mean, again, I got to meet so many impactful, incredible filmmakers, like Calvin Kennedy, we had four movies that we're marketing. It was a real learning curve for the almost two years I did it. And that classic, first Hollywood job, like don't screw up that phone call from Scott Rudin or whatever it is. Like there were those moments consistently. And I was scared out of my wits until I wasn't. And eventually I was just like, I would see the kids in their suits come in from Yale to take my job since I was just a temp and interview and I was like, "No, no, no, no, fuck it. I'm going to keep this job." It almost became like a challenge to myself. Alison Eakle:And I think being able to stick it out and succeed there, even though I didn't want to do marketing, and on that desk is where I realized I never have time to write and I'm never making time. And people who really want to be writers, they make time. They get up at 6:00 AM and write for two hours before their desk job. And I was not doing that. So I just realized I think I found out there was a thing called development, which is basically what I loved about writing most was workshops like working with writers, not being the writer and started to try to think about how to make that transition. Chris Erwin:Got it. Look, I hear this from a lot of people who work at the agencies like pretty early on is that it's really exciting in the beginning, but it's also painful, the work, the stress, a lot of bad bosses, it turns people out and they leave Hollywood. But when you were there, did it feel like you're just getting more excited, but you're like, but I'm not in the role that I want. Like what you just described as like, I want to get into development. So I feel good about the industry, this is hard, but the stars in my eyes, they're still real and they're not going away. Is that right? Alison Eakle:Yes. I think I am at some level, again, like a pragmatist. There's always competing parts, right? There's the creative and the pragmatist and the pragmatists was like, you have a job that pays really well in a business that doesn't, you have overtime, you have health insurance, I was just like, keep doing this. And again, I love the challenge of a professor or a boss that's incredibly difficult to impress. So I love that challenge. And I learned a ton because honestly the biggest lesson of marketing is like, don't create something you don't know how to approach an audience with. You need to know who this movie or this show is for and obviously there's always a pleasant surprise when it kind of broadens out past that, but that was really drilled and it's like, what does the poster look like? Alison Eakle:Because we would get scripts and movies that we had to market. And we would look at each other what is this about? How did you sell this movie? And I will not name names, but it was incredible to see it from that other end. And that was the boss. She was incredible in teaching me like Alison, as an assistant in Hollywood, your job is to assume no one else is doing their job correctly, which is a terrible place to live for a long time in terms of that is so fear-based. But it is also a way to I learned how to anticipate what could go wrong or how to kind of shore up and idiot proof certain processes in a way that I do things still serves me to today. Chris Erwin:Hey listeners, this is Chris Irwin, your host of The Come Up. I have a quick ask for you. If you dig what we're putting down, if you like the show, if you like our guests, it would really mean a lot if you can give us a rating wherever you listen to our show. It helps other people discover our work and it also really supports what we do here. All right. That's it everybody, let's get back to the interview. Two points that I think are interesting. Alison, you described as being able to anticipate what could go wrong or sit at corners, we had Chas Lacaillade interviewed on this podcast, he now runs a digital talent management company called BottleRocket, but he said the same exact thing he was at ICM. He's like, "The one takeaway I have from that is you can always anticipate what's going to go wrong in a deal, a conversation, a client meeting," and he found that very valuable. Chris Erwin:The second thing I think that you said, Alison, that I really like is how to market and how to approach an audience. So I think today where media has changed, where they used to be fixed supply, if you can get theatrical distribution, you're going to win. If you're going to get on like a TV network, you're going to win. But with the internet, there is so much content out there even if you're like putting up content on Netflix or you're putting up content on YouTube or in some like digital, native way, your content has to stand down. And the marketing campaign that wraps the actual content itself, how you speak and engage and excite your audience, that is where the winners are today. So the fact that you have that lens from your history, I think is really interesting. Alison Eakle:You put it better than I ever could, but that all tracks. Yes, that feels right. Chris Erwin:So you realize you're not having the amount of time you need for writing, so you've got to change it up. So where do you go? Alison Eakle:I saw a job opportunity to assist the director of production and development at Paramount Vantage. What I'll never forget there was the current assistant had put out a job posting and how this works in Hollywood, for anyone who's listening and doesn't know, is you'll see jobs on things called tracking boards or emailed chains basically. But they always say, "No phone calls, please. Do not call me. Just email your resume." Right? And I was like, okay, this job is on the same lot, I'm going to call him. And I did. And he was so incredibly lovely. Colin Conley, he's still in the business, an incredible manager. And I just called him. And I was like, "Look, I did not come up through the agency. I don't have the required experience, but I swear to God, the desk I'm on is harder than any agency desk you can imagine. And I'll tell you why if you meet me for like 15 minutes." Alison Eakle:So we did, we literally met in the middle of the lot at Paramount. And he was like, "You know what? I think my boss would like you." And he was leaving to go work at the Sundance Institute, fucking cool as hell. And I tried not to be too intimidated. And I met his boss and loved her. And the only weird thing about that experience was when I did get the job, three weeks into it, most of Paramount Vantage was let go. They were downsizing all indie studios at that point. And I was like, oh my God, I just took a pay cut and a huge risk to take this job and now I'm going to get fired. That was all that went through my head is like, we're all going to get laid off, but I don't know what happened, but for eight months, some of us still hung on. Alison Eakle:And I learned so much about future film development from my boss, Rachel. And then we were all let go. Then it really did. The hammer came down in July of 2009. John Lynch left as the head of the studio of Vantage was done. And another colleague of mine who used to be at Vantage got me my next job just assisting a production exec at Sony Pictures, Elizabeth Kentiling, who was incredible. And the experiences were so different because at Vantage, I learned a ton about development, but we never got to make anything because essentially it was like, you already saw the writing on the wall. You knew it was only a matter of time to some extent that you were going to be shut down, which I've never had an experience like that since. It is sort of freeing, because I was just like, well, I'm going to learn and do as much as I can while I'm here. Alison Eakle:And then at Sony, it was the opposite where it was like, there was development happening on scripts so I was there, but my boss was making movies. Like I always watched her oversee Social Network and Girl With the Dragon Tattoo and got really a firsthand view of like how that side of things works when stuff is going. So it was incredibly valuable, but the whole time I'm sitting there thinking, okay, I'm still an assistant, I'm 30... How old was I at that point? Probably 31. Again, wasn't acting, wasn't writing, wasn't really an exec. I would go to drinks with other assistants and them not knowing how old I was would be like, "Oh man, if I'm still an assistant at 30, kill me." Chris Erwin:It's interesting you're saying this because I was reading an interview that was done with you. Asked like what's the worst advice that you can receive or that you have received? And you said something along the lines like, oh, if you're like an assistant or haven't figured out your career in Hollywood by the time you're 30, it's over. And that's BS. That's not true. And so I think this is clearly where that's coming from. Alison Eakle:Oh yeah. And trust me in the moment I was like, maybe it is true. Like I'm not impervious to insecurities. 100% I was like, I've given all this up, I've left my family, I've moved to LA, did I make a terrible choice? Is this right? But there is such a thing where you just got to stick it out and you keep learning and try to keep growing and then the next opportunity will find you. I totally flunked out on my first creative executive interview in the Future World. And I just was like, oh man, this other junior exec at the movie studio got me this opportunity and I just said stupid shit and I blew it. But then a friend of mine from my Paramount Vantage days, a friend who had worked at Comedy Central while we were doing the Comedy Central branded movies and I really loved, was like, "My old boss from Comedy Central is starting a company for Ellen Degenerates, would you ever want to go be the assistant/exec?" Alison Eakle:And it was primarily television, both scripted and unscripted, not movies, not the big sexy thing at that time that I was still like, no, no, no, you got to work in movies. But I was like, I fucking love television. I raised myself on television. Let me tell you, I jumped at the chance. And again, I was still answering phones at that point technically, but I was like a coordinating manager. So I got to be in the meetings and watch how it happened and take meetings of my own. Chris Erwin:This is A Very Good Production, that's the name of the company? Alison Eakle:Yes. That's A Very Good Production. Chris Erwin:Okay. Alison Eakle:And look, I probably did that classic thing that I think a lot of women do where I didn't think I would feel ready to go from assistant to just exec. That is where I second guessed myself a bit. And so I loved that idea of like a hybrid opportunity, but I also couldn't have learned from anyone better than Lauren Carrao as we were building that company from the ground up with the deal at Warner Brothers. Chris Erwin:Got it. Wow. So Alison, I want to get into now your rise at Shondaland, a company that you joined back in 2013 and where you're still at today and interesting juxtaposition. So I interview a mix of technology and E-commerce, but also media executives on this podcast. A lot of the technology executives I interview, their career rise starts a lot earlier, right? It's like the difference. But in media, a lot of the people that I've interviewed, it takes a bit longer. You're joining Shondaland I think in your early 30s, but you've had an amazing run over the past almost a decade. So I'm curious, how did you first end up there? Alison Eakle:Truly going back to my doomed, but learned a lot moments of Paramount Vantage, it was my boss there, Rachel Eggebeen. She was the first kind of creative executive that Shonda and her longtime creative and producing partner, Betsy Beers, my other boss brought on and into the company when they'd had their deal through ABC. They'd been making Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice and a few other pilots that had knocked on to series. But I believe as Rachel came on board, they were making the Scandal pilot. They had expanded the company and around the time that I was ready to move on from a very good production in terms of trying to get kind of my first either producing credits or full exec job, whatever that next move was going to be for me, I reached out to Rachel and I said, "What do you think I should consider? You're one of my favorite bosses, favorite people, favorite friends, what do you think I should do?" Alison Eakle:And she said, "Well, interestingly, Shonda and Betsy are thinking about expanding the work they're doing and hiring another person. And your background in comedy could be incredibly useful and important part of the mix given they're starting to do more of that." When I came on board, they'd already been developing a pilot with Issa Rae, actually for ABC. Ultimately didn't move forward, but was one of my first experiences as an exc. It got to be me and Issa Rae in a room, sitting on the floor, working through a pilot and I will never forget it. And it was incredible. And I loved every second of working with her. Chris Erwin:Speaking of Issa Rae, so I joined the whole YouTube revolution in 2013. And I remember we were launching different like digitally native verticals. Issa Rae came in and pitched a show with her creative partner. Alison Eakle:Oh, no way. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Early days. And now look at her, she's a phenomenal. You shouldn't make a fuss. Alison Eakle:Talk about a rise. I feel silly calling what I've experienced duress in light of Issa. I mean, just and so earned and so deserve. Like with the pilot was called, I Hate LA Dudes. And that was very much my mindset while we were working on it. But I would meet my husband just a few months after we finished up with that and I reversed that decision. No, it was great to kind of come on board. And look, I was, again, nervous, that imposter syndrome thing is hard to shake. I'm like, it's my first executive job, I am a fan of these shows of Grey's Anatomy and Scandal. Scandal season one and like half of season two had aired when I started. And that jump is a big jump in Hollywood when you're first like really not answering the phones anymore. I didn't have an assistant, but I wasn't an assistant. Alison Eakle:And I got to develop like my first comedy from the ground up with these writers Petrossian Goldstein that came partly from like an original idea I had just by like being like, fuck, okay, what do I want to see in the world that I don't see? What do I want to watch on TV that's in my life and I don't see reflected? And we came up with this idea of what if your friend was dating someone terrible, just absolutely the worst. You wouldn't want to spend brunch with this person. And then they show up one day early in the dating and they're like, "We're having a baby." And I had pitched this idea of like, that would be the friend groups worst nightmare, but a lot of it would be not so much about that girl who kind of enters the group, but really about you and what you're going through emerging as a group of like 20 somethings into your 30s. Alison Eakle:And then when we pitched this idea to these other writers, they had had an idea of what had happened in their friend group, which is one of their really close friends had passed away. And that guy's parents had sort of become the parents of their friend group. And we wound up having this incredible meeting where we realized we could merge these ideas. And it was just one of those first experiences where Betsy and I were in the thick of it and I realized like, oh, this is it, this is what I wanted this to feel like and be like. I love the idea that I can have an idea, writers can make it better and bring their own experience to it and then I get to watch it just evolve. Alison Eakle:And it was such a well-received comedy pilot that at the very last minute we did not get to make it, but it was a great first experience in that first year at that company of like, A, I love this, B, I love why I'm working with on these projects and C, maybe I'm not terrible at it. Like that first moment you're like, oh, I should keep doing this. Which I think a lot of people don't talk about because I think you're supposed to pretend that you're just like a girl boss from day one and always had the confidence, but no, I mean, it truly took going through that first experience to be like, okay, I deserve to be in the room. Chris Erwin:Amazing. So very early on, everything felt right to you. This is the right team, this is the right role and did you get a sense that it's like, hey, this is a company I can be at for a really long time. Alison Eakle:I was like, hey, I hope they'll have me for a long time. Again, like even with the successes, I think there's always a moment where you're just like, what's the next thing I can do? Like I want to continue to earn this spot or earn their respect. And the other thing I just sort of lucked into was that at that same time that we were doing that comedy, we had six other drama projects in development, how it works as you sell ideas in pitches to the networks and then the writers write the scripts and around Christmas time, these networks were just in the network side, they would decide which ones they were actually going to shoot. And the one that they decided to shoot was How To Get Away With Murder. And so then even though my comedy pilot, that experience hadn't borne fruit in terms of being shot, I got to see that show be born and come to life. Alison Eakle:The other thing that happened in those first eight months I was there was that Rachel did leave Shondaland to go to another job at Fox 21, which is a studio. And again, I was terrified because the person who brought me in was gone and I was still getting my sea legs, but Betsy and Shonda were incredible. And I learned so much from them. And I got to all of a sudden just not limit myself to being like, hey, I'm the person who's here to do some comedy and I got to experience what it is to develop dramas and realized I loved that too. Chris Erwin:You mentioned it... Again I saw on an interview that you had like a handful of promotions within the first four to five years that you were there. Alison Eakle:Yes. Chris Erwin:So what did you feel that you were doing at the company that started to really stand out and have you get noticed? Alison Eakle:I was kind of the only one for a while. I feel like I don't know what I would necessarily pinpoint. I'd be interested to hear Betsy and Shonda say it. I think one of the things was not only did I have the things that I would get excited about and bring to the table, but I think that Shonda's excitement and Betsy's passion are really contagious. Right? I think very early on I realized, okay, they have fucking genius ideas. I can execute that. I can take that. I can run with it. I can get some progress going. I can find the writer. I can work on the vision of the writer. I also loved the fact that we had this incredible community of writers that had come up on all the Shondaland shows. So I think I really just threw myself fully into trying to make projects with them work and support them. Alison Eakle:And I think there's also a little bit of magic sometimes when taste and instincts lineup, the rest of it is sort of just to do the work, especially those early days. To this day, even after I've had a kid, which we'll talk about, I've never not worked on weekends, I've never not worked at night. Like even when I'm not working and I'm using air quotes, my brain is constantly going in terms of how to fix issues or how to approach strategically certain projects. And I think that they must have responded to it. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Because I think to you it was clear as it's not just work, this is a passion. It's like part of your essence. It's having like a creative mind wanting to support the creative community. I think like you were saying with Shonda and Betsy, you have this reputation where you could take an idea that they have and really nurture it and build it and make it even more special. So there's this trust that they're bestowing on you, but they really appreciate new ideas that you bring to the table. So then, okay, there's an exciting moment. You're there for around four years, 2017, then there's the big announcement that Shonda is leaving ABC for Netflix and what was reported to be, I think, the range is up to $150 million deal. What was that like? Was that something... Had you been working on that for a while? Was that something that you knew of? Was that something that was just dropped on you? What was that like to receive internally? Alison Eakle:I did know a little bit before the announcement came, I just was over the moon excited in terms of it being such a new learning opportunity for me, right? I know Shonda and Betsy had their excellent reasons for making that transition at that time when they did. Strictly speaking from my experience of it, I was just so interested in how different that could be, what restrictions would be lifted when you suddenly don't have to make television for network to fit that 42 minutes of a drama episode to kind of deal with broadcast standards and practices. But also just the idea that I think once we went to Netflix, it probably did also, at least in my opinion, as I spoke to people in the industry, it started to broaden their ideas of the kind of shows we made sometimes, sometimes not. Sometimes they'd still come to us and be like, "Here's Grey's Anatomy, but in a funeral home." Like they would still do that too, but there was a lot of people understanding that now we were going to do TV and movies. Alison Eakle:We could do comedies. We wanted to do genre. Like I think, especially by the time we were able to announce those first things we were working on kind of a year into the deal, it did make people understand that while they often thought of us in terms of, I will use the quote, sexy soap or serialize procedurals, the ambitions were so much bigger than that. And to get ready because we had a lot of things coming that you would not be able to do on network. And that was really liberating and exciting. Chris Erwin:Did everyone feel that same way? Was there anyone internal on the team or within your writer community that was like, "You know what? I want to work on network programming and going to a streamer is not a place I want to be." Alison Eakle:If that was happening, it was not something that I was privy to or that people were coming to talk to me about at all. Everybody was like, "I can't believe this. I'm so excited." And we're moving into new offices and all. It was just felt like a real thrum of excitement. And look, I think to this day, there are still writers who appreciate the consistency of a network job, but the whole business has changed. This is a conversation for another time in that residuals are not the same anymore. And there are so few shows like Grey's and Station 19 that can go that many episodes a season. Whereas writer you know you're booked kind of like August to April or whatever it is, I do think some writers probably miss that and will gravitate towards that kind of structure, that storytelling, all of that. But I didn't experience anyone being like, "Ooh, Netflix," at all. Chris Erwin:Okay. And maybe look, I think there was a lot of excitement at the moment. Was this announced right after Ryan Murphy's deal? I think he announced like a $300 million deal, was that- Alison Eakle:We were the first. Chris Erwin:You were the first. Alison Eakle:Shondaland was the first. Yeah. That was the first deal for Shondaland was the first of these big star producer deals. And I think Ryan Murphy, Kenya Barris, a few others came in like quick succession, but it was the first big announcement like this. Chris Erwin:Clearly it's working, right? So there's the big 2020 hit with Bridgerton. And then recent news, there's a re-up between Atlanta and Netflix are reported or confirmed or reported up to 400 million, but what was it like in that moment when Bridgerton which I think is the number one performing show on Netflix today, when that hit and your team started to get some of the success reporting, what was that feeling like? And were you involved in that show at all? Alison Eakle:Oh yeah. So I am a co-EP on the show and moving forward into seasons two, three, and four, I'll be working on it. It honestly was something where I still remember the day that Shonda was like, "There are these romance novels that are absolutely incredible. They would make a great show." I will be the first to admit I was like, "Romance novels, like grocery store paperback romance novels?" The genius that she is she's like, "Just read them. Just read one. Read The Duke and I." Which is the first book and is what season one is based on, the Simon and Daphne's story. And I read it in like one sitting, definitely started blushing about like 80 pages in for sure, but immediately I was like, oh, I get it. I get it. I understand the conceit of how this works for many seasons. I get why there's such a huge under-serviced fandom of this material. And they have not gotten to see some of their favorite stories brought to the screen and shot. Alison Eakle:It was so smart because she knew that people would clamor for that. And that audience had just not gotten to see those characters come to life, but also that there would be a broader reach. And also I think that it was such a surreal experience for me. I was incredibly pregnant. It was Christmas time. We had done post-production in COVID entirely from our homes remotely. Every music spotting session would be inimitable, Kris Bowers. Like all of it had been done remotely, all the posts. So it was like being in this kind of strange bubble and just sitting there as the holiday started just wondering how it would be received. And I don't think I could have ever anticipated what a mark on the culture it would have. Chris Erwin:I didn't even start thinking about the opportunity to romance space until Sarah Penna, who is one of the co-founders of the Big Frame where I was at right after school. And she had an idea that I think she's still working on with Lisa Berger called Frolic Media focused on, I think it's in a podcast network and digital video programming for female romcom romance enthusiast. And when she started telling me some of the numbers of how big this demo is, I was like hearing the success of Bridgerton, I am not surprised. So a new Netflix deal's announced and here's some exciting things like a focus of film, games, VR, branding, merchandising. There's a larger team from Bridgerton Ball that's coming up in November. So it's really extending your work streams and creating an audience experiences into a lot of new channels. Where is Shondaland today and where is it headed? Alison Eakle:The other side of the company that is the digital side, that is the podcast, the website, whatever shape and form this gaming and VR enterprise is going to take to it is incredibly exciting and I think a huge part of how my perspective on my job has shifted. And look, I've gotten to experience people often say like, "How have you been at a company for eight years?" And I was like, "This company is always evolving. The opportunities are always evolving. The work we're doing is always shifting and changing and growing." And it's part of why I was so excited to work with Shonda and Betsy in the beginning because I knew they had these bigger plans, right? World domination through incredible storytelling, very appealing, but I'm just really always trying to think to myself too synergy. Alison Eakle:Are there opportunities of things that we're working on that could translate to the podcast space or there could be a great story on the website about it and thinking more actively how do I talk to them about that and tell them about it before it's too far down the pike or vice versa, what are they working on that could be the next great show for Netflix or first documentary came out right before the holidays as well around Thanksgiving, Dance Dreams: Hot Chocolate Nutcracker about the life and legacy of Debbie Allen as seen through her kind of like planning and staging this incredible her version of the Nutcracker? Alison Eakle:So we have a real hunger to do unscripted, both doc series, lifestyle, reality shows, things like that, the right kind of thing for the right kind of audience, the thing that we think will appeal to our fans and the people who love our material, but also Inventing Ana is going to be out soon, which is Shonda's next show that she created based on the incredible cut article from Jessica Pressler, how Anna Delvey tricked New York's party people about the Soho grifter, who basically found a way to make all the finance bros in New York and all the art people and all the fancy pants people in New York who believed she was a German heiress. An incredible kind of fake it till you make it American dream story from a very slanted interesting perspective. Alison Eakle:So I'm really excited for that show to hit and to launch and for people to see that it's a limited. That's like the next big thing on top of the fact that we have announced through Bridgerton season four to really get to service the Bridgerton's children's love stories. We've got a lot of story to tell. And then Shonda's next project is a project based on the life of young Queen Charlotte, who obviously is someone we featured heavily in the Bridgerton series. So that's some of the scripted coming down the line. We do have feature films in development. We have a lot of different genre TV shows that I don't think people would be necessary... Again, always trying to broaden the idea of what people think of as a Shondaland show, which is just incredible unexpected storytelling that has an incredibly human lens. A lot of different things coming down. Chris Erwin:All this program is going to be exclusive to Netflix, is that right? Alison Eakle:Yes. Exclusively in Netflix. Chris Erwin:Looking at the Shondaland website yesterday, and I saw the 2017 partnership with Hearst where you've launched a lifestyle website. You have this January, 2020 audio partnership with iHeart, where I think you're creating companion content to promote some of your series, but also maybe seeding some new IP, which is definitely a theme that we talk a lot about here at RockWater. But these are divisions that are separate from your purview, but you want to collaborate and you want to work together. And I think that'd be an awesome thing to do more of in the future. I'd love to see that. Alison Eakle:Oh yeah. It's a top-down mentality the idea of like, no, no, no, you guys, you're not just making content for Netflix and you're not just making content for Hearst to iHeart, this is Shondaland. This is a united family of people figuring out how to tell stories best. Chris Erwin:Last question, Alison, before we get to the rapid fire round. So you are a mother of one who is five months old. Alison Eakle:Yes. Chris Erwin:When you say you work nights, you work weekends, how does that change with a kid at home not just in terms of like time capacity, but also just how you think about your programming and where you want content to go in the world considering that you're raising someone new in it? Alison Eakle:That's a great question. I think I'm so in it right now. It's all still so new. I don't know yet the impact it'll have on me. And look, animation both for adults and children is something we've talked about a lot and gotten excited about that kind of programming. I'll be honest, I binge-watched the Babysitters Club with that best friend, Ashley, who we moved out here from New York together. I think there's incredible content for kids. I don't think my brain has fully processed yet how having this child is going to impact my creative work, but I do think it has changed how I work and yes, I just have less time right now because every minute I'm not with him, I inevitably am wondering, am I missing it? Am I missing something? Right? But I also realize there's a lot of time that he sleeps, not in the beginning, but now there is. Alison Eakle:And it's interesting how I think I used to be a real... I do get up very early with him and I do do great work in the morning, I feel, but I've really also become that person who eight o'clock hits and I take a minute for myself, but I do think to myself, okay, I have quiet. I have a couple of hours of quiet before I hit the, hey, how am I going to use this time? So I think I've just gotten smarter about time management and realized that like I can be sitting there rocking my baby, playing out, what kind of thoughts or how we might re-break a pilot in my head. I've just gotten a little bit more nimble in terms of how I use the time I have. Chris Erwin:I like that. And kind of what you are saying, Alison, reminds me of like the classic high school Adagio. If you have a really busy schedule, like a bunch of high school sports and everything, it just forces you to be more productive to get your work done in the time that you have and you're better. And then second, I think it's this beautiful new moment in your life that's giving you incredible new fulfillment and appreciation for what matters and it's a shock of the system. And I think shocks and changes are good to see things in different ways and that's good for creativity. You've had an amazing rise, who knows where you're going to go? Alison Eakle:Who knows? Chris Erwin:I'll close this out a quick interjection for me before rapid fire. Alison, known you for a long time, but admittedly have not been in close touch in recent years. So it's been exciting that we can come together I think at a dinner that I threw a couple of years ago, but also through this podcast. And I think just hearing your story, what I love and what feels so special is I'm hearing that there was no fear of trying things, of experimenting, putting yourself out there and following your heart. There was moments where like, look, growing up in Rumson where we were, your parents from Wall Street, I ended up going to Wall Street. Like that's what I was inspired to do. And you, I think you said, "No, there's something else that I want to do and give it a go." And then you went to Georgetown, you thought you were going to go down the political science path, but then you had that amazing class and you went with that. You trusted your gut. Chris Erwin:And I think you being able to listen to yourself and set up a very exciting career for you and an ability to do programming that's really a meaningful impact on people's lives and look at the success of Bridgerton and more to come. So it's really fun to see this journey and reflect on it. And I can't wait until we do the second podcast, which is like on this next page. Alison Eakle:Well, thank you. And thank you for having me on too. And also right back at you, it's watching an evolution of a career that's not in Hollywood always fascinates me a lot more than even watching the stuff inside the industry. I love everything that you are doing and juggling right now too. Chris Erwin:Appreciate that. All right. So rapid fire. Here's the rules. Six questions, short answers. It could be maybe one sentence or maybe just one or two words. Do you understand the rules? Alison Eakle:I mean, I'm a wordy mofo, but I will try to keep it to the one sentence or the one word. Chris Erwin:Okay, here we go. Proudest life moment. Alison Eakle:Navigating the return to work after having my son and not absolutely losing my mind. Chris Erwin:Got it. What do you want to do less of in 2021. Alison Eakle:Judge people. Chris Erwin:What do you want to do more of? Alison Eakle:Acts of service. I feel like I got away from that during COVID. Yes, acts of service. Chris Erwin:I like that. One to two things drive your success. Alison Eakle:As you said, willingness to try things and to experiment. And I think also a willingness to really listen to people and figure out what they want. Chris Erwin:What is your advice for media execs going into the back half of this year and into 2022. Alison Eakle:Now that I have a kid and less time than ever, I'm all about essentialism. And I think people have to remember that sometimes less is more, less is more. That's what I'll say. See, trying to be shot. Private is the sour word. Chris Erwin:Saying less is more and trying to do it in short with fewer words. Got it. Considering your parents entreprene

On this episode of Democracy that Delivers, our host Ken Jaques is joined by co-host Adam Sachs from CIPE's Global Team and Thomas Dewaranu, a researcher at the Center for Indonesian Policy Studies (CIPS). CIPE partnered with CIPS to engage in a digital economy advocacy pilot that examines the country's digital economy environment via interviews, public-private dialogues, and other awareness-raising activities. Thomas Dewaranu shares research recommendations that are captured in a policy paper titled, “Co-regulating the Indonesian Digital Economy”. One key takeaway from the report is to follow a co-regulation approach that relies on collaboration between government and private sector actors to foster a cooperative approach to regulatory design, implementation, and enforcement of digital laws.

On this episode of Democracy that Delivers, our host Ken Jaques is joined by co-host Adam Sachs from CIPE's Global Team and Sheilah Birgen, The Cord CEO and 2020 Open Internet for Democracy Leader. The Open Internet for Democracy Leaders Program is a non-resident leadership program that empowers emerging leaders from across the globe to build their advocacy and organizing skills to protect internet freedom. Sheilah talks to Adam and Ken about opportunities for advancing data privacy and protection in Kenya, and together they explore how the lessons Sheilah learns there could be applied to initiatives in other local contexts.

Adam Sachs, co-founder and CEO of Vicarious Surgical, a company backed by Bill Gates and Vinod Khosla, discusses the company's Fantastic Voyage inspired-surgical robot that uses immersive reality to guide today's surgeons inside the body with new, groundbreaking technology that sets it apart from competitors. The system has received FDA Breakthrough Device designation. #VicariousSurgical #SurgicalRoboticsDisrupter Adam Sachs is CEO of Vicarious Surgical, a surgical robotics company he co-founded in 2014. Sachs leads the development and commercialization of the company's surgical robots to increase the efficiency of procedures and improve patient outcomes. Prior to founding Vicarious Surgical, Sachs worked at Apple in manufacturing. He holds a Bachelor of Science in mechanical engineering from MIT and has worked for more than 11 years as a volunteer emergency medical technician for MIT EMS, an ambulance serving the MIT community.

Vicarious Surgical and CMR Surgical recently combined to raise over $1 billion from public and private investors. Big money clearly as found surgical robotics. Now what? We connect with Per Vegard Nerseth, the new CEO of CMR. Nerseth comes to CMR from the robotics industry, so he brings deep industry understanding of what it will take to get CMR to the next level. The company closed on $600 million for a Series D, which is likely the largest private medtech investment in history. Later, we reconnect with Adam Sachs, co-founder and CEO of Vicarious Surgical. Sachs walks us through the process of merging with a SPAC (not for the faint-hearted.) With over $400 million in hand, Vicarious is bringing in senior talent and moving to a legacy filled new HQ to prepare for its next stage. Chris Newmarker, executive editor of life sciences at MassDevice, brings his Newmarker's Newsmakers highlighting news from Stryker, Heartflow, Hillrom, BardyDx, TransMedics and Imperative Care. Subscribe to this podcast on every major podcast channel!

Can you achieve your moonshot goals if you play it safe and shy away from taking calculated risks? On today's show, we interview Executive Coach and Change management expert Adam Sachs who shares with us his distilled wisdom on discovering your passion, leveraging your strengths, and taking the path less trodden. Like most of us, growing up, Adam was really confused about his career path. So, after high school, he dabbled in a variety of industries like construction and internet marketing.  When Adam was in this exploratory mode, most of his friends chose to stick to the tried and tested path. As a result, when Adam was slumming it out, his friends and peers seemingly left him far behind in the proverbial rat race. In this segment of the show, you will learn why you need to find the courage and patience to sacrifice short-term gains for massive forward momentum. After much trial and error, Adam finally chanced upon coaching and consulting. And he even took on debt so that he could get could the necessary certification. Adam's conviction paid off big time when he was hired as a coach for Edward Jones. Currently, Adam works as a business and organizational leadership coach for CACI International Inc.  On today's show, you will learn why you need to be a constant learner if you hope to find yourself on the edge of excellence.  Enjoy!   What You Will Learn In This Show Why you must sacrifice short terms gains for massive forward momentum Sacrifices that I don't regret making when I was in my twenties How to discover yourself through exploration and risk-taking And so much more… Resources College Works   Edge Of Excellence Is Brought To You By College Works Painting Internship College Works Paintings provides college and university students a unique, life-transforming opportunity to build business management and leadership skills, hands-on. The internship empowers students to run their own local businesses, manage their own crew of people, and provide a much-needed service within their communities - while earning money as well as an invaluable experience. Their internship allows students to not only gain valuable work experience but to help finance their college educations as well. The company is known for having some of the highest customer satisfaction ratings in the industry. To learn more: https://www.collegeworks.com/students-home-page/

Adam Sachs is the Co-Founder and CEO of Vicarious Surgical a next generation robotics company that is developing a disruptive medical technology platform. Their goal is to increase the efficiency of legacy surgical robotics, improving patient outcomes and reducing healthcare costs.  Vicarious Surgical's novel approach to surgery uses a combination of proprietary miniaturized surgical robots and virtual reality to transport surgeons inside the patient when performing minimally invasive surgery. The first indication being targeted is ventral hernia repair for which Vicarious has been granted Breakthrough Device Special designation from the FDA. The Vicarious system, with nine-degrees of freedom for each arm of the robot, can actually operate from inside of the abdomen out. Surgeons are enthusiastic about the ability to work facing any direction from any incision site. #VicariousSurgery #VR #VirtualReality #robots #surgicalrobotics #herniarepair #ventralherniarepair #SPAC VicariousSurgery.com Listen to the podcast here

Adam Sachs is the Co-Founder and CEO of Vicarious Surgical a next generation robotics company that is developing a disruptive medical technology platform. Their goal is to increase the efficiency of legacy surgical robotics, improving patient outcomes and reducing healthcare costs.  Vicarious Surgical's novel approach to surgery uses a combination of proprietary miniaturized surgical robots and virtual reality to transport surgeons inside the patient when performing minimally invasive surgery. The first indication being targeted is ventral hernia repair for which Vicarious has been granted Breakthrough Device Special designation from the FDA. The Vicarious system, with nine-degrees of freedom for each arm of the robot, can actually operate from inside of the abdomen out. Surgeons are enthusiastic about the ability to work facing any direction from any incision site. #VicariousSurgery #VR #VirtualReality #robots #surgicalrobotics #herniarepair #ventralherniarepair #SPAC VicariousSurgery.com Download the transcript here

Adam Sachs, CEO and co-Founder of Vicarious Surgical, a robotic surgical company backed by Bill Gates, on using robotics technology and virtual reality to perform surgical procedures. Rick Palacios, Principal, Director of Research at John Burns Real Estate Consulting, on the investment outlook for real estate. Lauren Sauer, Johns Hopkins University Associate Professor of Emergency Medicine, on the latest news surrounding the coronavirus treatments, vaccines and spread. Bloomberg's Renita Young, in collaboration with Bloomberg Quicktake, explores how marketers are underpaying Black influencers while pushing Black Lives Matter. Hosted by Paul Sweeney and Matt Miller (Kailey Leinz filling in for Paul Sweeney.)

Gretta Cohn is the founder and CEO of Transmitter Media. Gretta's experience runs the gamut of all things audio, from public radio and ringtones, to producing chart-topping podcasts. We discuss her time touring with the band Bright Eyes, being hired as the first production executive at Midroll Media and Earwolf, and starting her own podcast company with only $7,000 of savings. Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com--EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:Chris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Gretta Cohn:I thought I would take the more productive path, the one where I didn't leave podcasting and I made this decision in December of 2016 to myself and then spent the next couple of months just tucking away money. And when I say I saved money before starting the business, I saved $7,000. Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Gretta Cohn, the founder and CEO of Transmitter Media. Now, Gretta's experience runs the gamut of all things audio. From being a touring cellist with the band, Cursive, to teaching radio workshops at NYU, to working in audiobooks, ringtones, and most recently podcasts. And Gretta's done some groundbreaking work along the way like turning Freakonomics Radio into an omni channel media brand, launching the number one podcast show, Beautiful Stories from Anonymous People and helping build Howl, which eventually became part of Stitcher. But Gretta's career transformed in 2017 when she decided to do podcasting on her own terms. So with only $7000 of savings, Gretta founded Transmitter Media and quickly began producing premium podcasts for clients like, TED, Spotify, and Walmart. Today, Gretta is focused on scaling her Brooklyn based team and creating more, as she describes, beautiful things. Chris Erwin:Gretta's love for her craft and team is so genuine and her story is a great example of how sheer will and passion are the ultimate enablers. All right, let's get into it. Chris Erwin:Tell me a little bit about where you grew up. I believe that you grew up in New York City. Is that right? Gretta Cohn:Well, I grew up in the suburbs, so I grew up on Long Island. My mom is from Queens and my dad is from Brooklyn and there is a sort of mythology of their meeting. My mom's dad was a butcher in Queens and my dad would always tell us that they didn't have toothpaste growing up and he'd go over to my mom's house and just eat. Yeah, they moved out to Long Island after they got married. Chris Erwin:Nice. And what part of Long Island? Gretta Cohn:Initially I grew up on the eastern end in the town called Mount Sinai and then when I was 13 in a very traumatic move at that age we moved to Huntington, which was more like smack in the middle of the island. Chris Erwin:My cousins are from Huntington. That's where they grew up, but then I think they moved to Lloyd's Neck shortly after. Why was that move so traumatic at 13? Gretta Cohn:I think it's that really formative age where you are sort of coming into yourself as a human, as a teenager and I remember writing my name on the wall in the closet because I wanted to leave my mark on that particular house that we grew up in. But then we moved and I made new friends and it was fine. Chris Erwin:Everything is scary at that age. It's like, "Oh, I have my friends and if I move to a new high school or middle school, I'll never have the same friends again." Gretta Cohn:My best friend at the time, Alessandra, never to be talked to or seen again. Chris Erwin:What was the household like growing up? Was there interesting audio from your parents? I mean, I think you mentioned, remind me, your father was a butcher and your mother was... Gretta Cohn:No, no. Those are my grandparents. Chris Erwin:Those are your grandparents. Got it. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. No. My parents were both teachers in the education system. My dad was a teacher his whole career life. He taught shop and psychology classes and computer classes. And my mom ended up being a superintendent of the school district on Long Island. She got her start as a Phys Ed teacher and then became an English teacher and worked her way up to superintendent. The sort of interest in audio they instilled in me and my two brothers extremely early. We all started learning to play string instruments at the age of three through the Suzuki method. Chris Erwin:The Suzuki method? Gretta Cohn:Yeah. Which is like an ear training style of learning music. So you essentially at three years old, you cannot possibly understand how to physically play an instrument and I remember a lot of time spent in those early group lessons just hugging the cello and singing this song, I love my cello very much, I play it every day and crawling up and down the bow with spider fingers, that's what they called it because your fingers kind of looked like spiders crawling up and down the bow and we all started playing string instruments at that age. I played cello and then the brother who came after me played violin, and the brother who came after him also played cello. Chris Erwin:Wow. And did you parents play instruments as well, string instruments? Gretta Cohn:No. My dad loves to say he can play the radio. Chris Erwin:I respect that. Gretta Cohn:I think they are educators, they are really invested in the full education of a person and so I think that they thought it was a good teaching discipline and it certainly required a kind of discipline. I can recall really fighting against practicing because I had to practice probably every day and I would rebel and not want to do it, but it was not really an option and I'm glad that ultimately I was pressed to continue to play because playing music has played such a huge part of my life. Chris Erwin:Clearly. It led you, which we'll get to, into founding a podcast production company and network and so much more. So very big impact. But, I get it. I began playing the alto saxophone in fourth grade and my twin brother was playing the clarinet and it was lessons with Mr. Slonum every week, an hour of practice every day and it was, when you're putting it on top of sports and homework and academics, it's a lot and it's intense and there's moments where you really don't want to do it and it's not fun and then there's moments where you're very thankful for it. And I think a lot of the more thankful moments came later in my life, but if you can get some of those early on, it's meaningful. When you first started playing, did you really enjoy it or was it just like, uh this is what I'm just supposed to do? Gretta Cohn:I remember enjoying it. I remember in particular being able to do little recitals every so often and I know there are photographs of myself in recital that I've seen even recently and there is such a joy in that and I think that showing off something that you've done and your family claps for you, it's a good job. Ultimately, what it feels like to play in a group, in an ensemble, it's pretty magical. I played in orchestras starting in grade school all the way up through college and there is something really amazing about the collective and your part and you can't mess up because it's glaringly obvious if you're the one out of the section of 12 cellists whose got their bow going the wrong direction or the wrong note playing. But it's also really beautiful to play in a group like that. Chris Erwin:Yeah. It's a special team sport, right? You rely on other people and people rely on you. When it comes together, it's an absolutely beautiful event, for you and the audience. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. I also played soccer growing up, speaking of team sports. Chris Erwin:Okay. What position? Gretta Cohn:I was defense. They would enlist me to run around and shadow the most powerful player on the other team. I don't know why, but I remember that. Chris Erwin:I was very similar. I started out as a recreation all-star like a forward and then got moved to right fullback, which is defense. That was my soccer career. All right. So interesting. So yeah, speaking of studying music, I think that when you went to university, you almost went to study music at a conservatory but you ended up going to Brown instead. What were you thinking, because were you going down a path where it's like, "I want to be in audio, I want to create music." What was your head space there as you started to go through advanced education, beginnings of your career? Gretta Cohn:I remember collecting fliers for conservatories. I was interested in conservatory, I think though that as I began to really think about what that would mean, I don't know that I was thinking really broadly, like oh... No one at 17 or whatever really has a full picture of what those choices ultimately mean but I'm glad that I didn't go to music school. I was always the worst player in the best section. So I remember I was in the New York Youth Symphony and I was definitely not the best player in that section, but it was really hard to get in. One summer I went and studied at the Tanglewood Institute in Boston, which is, again, extremely competitive and hard to get into but I was definitely not the best player there. Gretta Cohn:And I think that thinking about what it would mean to devote oneself entirely to that, I had other interests. I wasn't so completely focused on being a performer that it didn't ultimately feel like it would make a lot of sense because I wanted to study history, I wanted... And obviously, you go to conservatory, you have a well-rounded education ultimately, I would imagine, but it's not where I think I ultimately wanted to go. That was not the direction I ultimately wanted to go. Chris Erwin:Yeah. It's a really big commitment going from good to great, but I mean, you are great. You are getting into these elite orchestras but to be the first chair, that's a level of dedication practice that's really tough. It's funny, I actually read a David Foster Wallace article about the sport of tennis and he played and he was very good and I think he could have even gone pro, but he's like, "I'm good, I put in enough hours and I have fun with it, but for me to go to the next level..." He's like, "It's not fun to me and I don't want to do that." It's not for him. So you make a decision and you go to Brown. What's your study focus at Brown? Gretta Cohn:I ultimately was in the American Studies Department, but I had a special sort of crossover with the music department so I took a lot of music classes, I took a lot of American Studies classes which is basically like cultural history, social history, history through the lens of various social movements or pop culture, which I think is really fascinating and I wound everything together so that my senior thesis was about cover songs and the history of sort of copying and the idea of creating various versions of any original work and the sort of cultural history and critical theory lens of it, but also just I selected three songs and I traced their history over time from a performance perspective but also from like, how does this song fit into the narrative of music history? Chris Erwin:Do you remember the three songs? Gretta Cohn:I think I did Twist and Shout. Chris Erwin:Okay. Gretta Cohn:I Shall Be Released and I can't remember the third one. But I had a lot of fun writing it and I really liked the bridging between the music department and the American Studies department. And strangely, there are so many journalists who came up through American Studies. There are several producers on my staff who were American Studies students in college. I think it just gives you this permission to think about story telling in the world from just this very unique cultural vantage points. Chris Erwin:Did you have a certain expectation where you had an idea of what that story was going to be over time or were you surprised and as you saw how the narrative played out with the original song and recording and production and then the covers, anything that stands out of like, "Oh, I did not expect this, but I found this very fascinating."? Gretta Cohn:I don't really remember at this point. Chris Erwin:Sorry for putting you on the spot, it's such a long time ago. Gretta Cohn:The thing was like more than 100 pages and it's probably a door stopper now at my parents house. I remember that I put a big picture of a mushroom on the last page. John Cage wrote a lot about mushrooms and so I wove some of his work into the thesis but this idea that the mushroom takes the dirt and crap and stuff that's on the forest floor and turns it into this organic material, the mushroom. So yeah, I don't remember the specifics. Chris Erwin:Yeah, no. All good. My thesis was on the Banana Wars and that is... It's not even worthy of being a door stopper. That's just straight to the trash. But I did, for a music class, I think I did break down a song by the Sex Pistols. Gretta Cohn:Cool. Chris Erwin:I can't remember specifically which one, but I think I dove deep into the lyrics and I think I was pretty disappointed. I expected to find more meaning and have more fun with it, and I think it was maybe my young mind, I couldn't go deeper than I thought I could. Anyway... So fast forward to 2001 and as I was going through your bio, this really stood out and it hits close to home. You become a cellist for some alternative rock bands including Cursive, The Faint, and Bright Eyes. And I just remember The Faint, I think a song from 2008, The Geeks Were Right. I remember listening to that shortly after college. So tell me, what was that transition going from university to then moving, I think you moved to Omaha out of New York to play in these rock bands? Gretta Cohn:So when I was in college, I continued to play in the school orchestra, but I also met some friends who became collaborators and we would just improvise in the lounge like, bass drums, guitar and cello. And that was really freeing for me. Growing up on Long Island, I had such easy access to New York City and for whatever reason, I was really given a lot of freedom to... I would take the Long Island Railroad into Manhattan and go to concerts all through high school, like rock concerts. Chris Erwin:What was some of your earliest concert memories? Gretta Cohn:Purposely getting to an Afghan Whigs show and planting myself in the front row because I wanted to be as close as possible to the stage. So I used to go to concerts all the time and I was really, really interested in... I wasn't only a person who thought about classical music at all and so I met this group of people and formed this little group together and so I was playing music in college, eventually joining a band mostly with locals in Providence and we became the opening act for a lot of bands that were coming through. Chris Erwin:And what type of music were you playing, Gretta? Gretta Cohn:It was arty rock. Chris Erwin:Arty rock. Okay. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. Some of it was instrumental, but then some of it was like pop. I think one of the bands that I was in was called The Beauty Industry and it was probably a little bit reminiscent of Built to Spill and The Magnetic Fields and a little bit like Poppy. So in that band we would serve as the opening act for a lot of artists that were coming through and through that I was able to meet the folks from Saddle Creek from Omaha, Nebraska. And I didn't know that I made an impression on them, but I did and after I graduated I moved to New York. I didn't really know exactly where I was headed. I got a job working in the development office at Carnegie Hall and I didn't love it. We had to wear suits. And one day the folks from Omaha called my parents home phone and left a message and asked if I would come out and play on a record with them and I did. Chris Erwin:When you got that message, were you ecstatic, were you super excited or were you just confused, like, "Hey, is this real? What's going on here?" Gretta Cohn:Yeah. I think I was like, "Huh, well, that's interesting." Like, "I didn't expect this." So Cursive is the group that invited me out to record. Just sort of like come out and record on our album. And I didn't actually know Cursive. I had met Bright Eyes and Lullaby for the Working Class when I was at Brown, but I hadn't met Cursive and my best friend, who is still one of my best friends was a Cursive fan and dumped all of their CDs and seven inches in my lap and was like, "You need to listen to them, they are so good." So I did and I sort of gave myself a little Cursive education and then I started to get really excited because I felt like there was a lot of interesting potential. Yeah. Gretta Cohn:Moving out there was not an easy decision. It was very unknown for me. I love New York City and I always imagined myself here and I had never been to the Midwest so I didn't know what my expectations were and I didn't... Also at that time Cursive was a fairly well-known band but it wasn't understood that I would move out there and that would be my job, right? I was moving out there to join this community and play in Cursive and do Cursive stuff, go on tour, record records, but at that point there was no promise like, "Oh, I'm going to live off of this." And so I went to a temp agency and I did paperwork in an accountant's office and- Chris Erwin:While also performing with Cursive? Gretta Cohn:Yeah. Yeah. I will also say though, after the first year, things really took off after The Ugly Organ and I would say at that point I was no longer working in the temp office and we were going on long tours and when I came home in between stretches on tour, I was recovering from tour because it's quite exhausting and working on the next thing with the bands. Chris Erwin:Were you touring around nationally? Any international touring? Gretta Cohn:Yeah. National and international. We went all over the States, Canada and then European tour is like often... Cursive was very big in Germany so we would spend a lot of time in Germany, Scandinavia. We went to Japan once. Chris Erwin:What an incredible post university experience! Gretta Cohn:It really, really was incredible. Chris Erwin:Playing music because of a skill that you formed very early on and then working in New York at Carnegie Hall and a job that you weren't too excited about and then you just get this serendipitous phone call. And you started listening to Cursive records in seven inches and you're getting more and more excited and all of a sudden you're traveling the world. That's like a dream scenario. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. It was pretty dreamy. And I think I recognized at the time. I mean, those first tours, we were sleeping on... I had my sleeping bag and we would be sleeping on hardwood floors, end up in like a row and someone's apartment in like Arlington. And I remember some of those first tours internationally, like in Germany, you would play the show and then everyone would leave and they would shut the lights off and we would just sleep on the stage. And in the morning the promoter, like the booker would come back and they would have bread and cheese and fruit and coffee. And it was just this beautiful... But we were sleeping on the stage. Chris Erwin:I mean, you're all doing it together. So it was cool. Right. You just were a crew. Gretta Cohn:Yeah, yeah. It was great. I loved it. I really, really loved it. Chris Erwin:I look at your work timeline between 2001 to 2010, which includes, you're a touring international artist, but then you do a lot of other things in audio. Like you study with Rob Rosenthal at the Salt Institute, do some time in Studio 360, and then you go to radio and then audio books. So what are the next few years? How does this audio adventure start to transform for you? Gretta Cohn:While I was in Cursive, there were other parts of me that I felt needed feeding and so I started writing for the local alternative weekly in Omaha. And I was doing like book reviews and reviewing art shows and doing little pieces, which sort of opened up to me, this understanding that journalism was something that I was really interested in. And while I was still essentially based in Omaha and still, essentially based out of Saddle Creek, I came back to New York for a few months and did an internship at The Village Voice because I just really wanted to sort of start exploring these paths of what would potentially come next. I didn't necessarily think that I was meant to stay in Omaha like for the rest of my life. When I first moved out there, I thought, "Oh, I'll give it a few years. See how it goes and then probably come back home to New York." Gretta Cohn:And then things really took off and so I didn't want to leave. And I was really having a great time and loved it and loved everything that I was doing. And I think that at the time that chapter was coming to a close, it was sort of like naturally coming to a close and I wasn't entirely sure what I wanted to do next. I was interested in journalism, I was interested obviously in... still thinking about music and audio although I think I needed a break from music after that time. Like when you're so intensively working on something like that, you just need a minute to let everything kind of settle. Chris Erwin:Yeah. It's all encompassing. Right. You're just living, breathing, eating music and the band. It's a lot. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. So I took a couple of years and started to figure it out. Actually, something that's not on your list is I worked at a ringtone company for a bit. Chris Erwin:It is audio based. So I'm not surprised. So yeah, tell me about that. Gretta Cohn:It was just a job that I got. Actually, looking back now, I think that it was a company that was founded by two classical musicians. They mostly had contracts with major record labels and I remember turning Sean Paul's Temperature into a ringtone in particular. It was just like chopping things into little eight seconds and looping them and mastering them and- Chris Erwin:Were you doing the technical work as well? Gretta Cohn:Not really, you spend time in the studio and so you learn and you pick up things. I wasn't recording the band, but that was the first time that I got my own pro tools set up and so I had my own pro tool setup, like was using it for my own little projects at home, but I was not technically involved with the making of any of the records that was on now, except for playing on them. Chris Erwin:Yeah, you were dabbling in pro tools then pretty early on. Gretta Cohn:Yeah, yeah. I had the original Mbox, which is like this big plastic, weird alien looking object with just like a couple of little knobs on it. I finally got rid of it a couple of years ago. I held onto it for a long time and now you don't even need it. Chris Erwin:So you're dabbling and then I know that you spend time as a producer at The Story with Dick Gordon, North Carolina, and then you went to audio books. Is that when things started to take shape for you of knowing kind of what you wanted to do? Gretta Cohn:I think as soon as I went to Salt to study with Rob Rosenthal is when I knew that that's what I wanted to do. I took a few years after Cursive to kind of reset a little bit and then I started working at the ringtone company and began to have conversations with people about where all my interests collided. Like I loved working in sound, storytelling and journalism were really important to me. I don't think at that point that... There was a whole lot that I was exposed to apart from NPR, This American Life and Studio 360 were sort of the major outlets for audio storytelling that I understood and spent time with. And I just remember having a meal with someone who I don't recall his name, but he's done a lot of illustrations for This American Life and public radio outlets and he was like, "There's this place, it's called salt. You can learn how to do this there." And so I just decided that I was going to step down this path. Right. Chris Erwin:Yeah. And Salt is based in Maine, is that right? Gretta Cohn:Yeah. So I moved to Maine for six months. I was very excited. I got a merit scholarship to go there. Chris Erwin:Oh wow. Gretta Cohn:Yeah, and I basically... There's so many fundamentals that I learned there that I use every single day now still. I think Rob Rosenthal is absolutely brilliant and he has trained so many radio producers. It's insane. Chris Erwin:Of all the learnings from Rob, just like what's one that comes to mind quickly that you use everyday? Gretta Cohn:I don't know that this is one I use every day, but it's one that's really stuck with me, is he really counseled to be really mindful when thinking about adding music to a story. He used the phrase, emotional fascism. Essentially, if you need to rely on the music to tell the listener how to feel, then you haven't done your job in sort of crafting a good story. So like the bones of the story, like the structure, the content, the sort of stakes intention and the character you've chosen, like all of that have to clear a certain hurdle and then you can start thinking about adding music, but if you're relying on the music to sort of create tension or drama or emotion, then you've kind of missed something. Chris Erwin:Yeah. That's very interesting. What a great insight! I like that. Emotional fascism. Gretta Cohn:I'll never forget. Chris Erwin:So after the Salt Institute, what's next? Gretta Cohn:I got an internship at WNYC at Studio 360. At that time the internship system at New York Public Radio was like largely unpaid. I think I got $12 a day. So I interned I think three or four days a week and then I had like two other jobs. Chris Erwin:Just to make ends meet, to make it work. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. I worked at a coffee shop, like most mornings. And then I worked at a Pilates studio many afternoons and on the weekends. So it was like a lot, I was really running at full steam, but I really enjoyed the internship there. And then that was my first real glimpse into what it was like to work in a team to make impactful audio storytelling and I learned a lot there too. The team there was really amazing. Yeah. So Studio 360 was fantastic. And then a friend of mine had found out about this gig at The Story with Dick Gordon. It was a short term contract producer role, like filling in for someone who was out on leave. And I got the job and I moved down to Durham, North Carolina, and found an apartment, brought my cat and worked on that show for a few months, which I think was a pretty crucial experience to have had, which helped open the door into WNYC. Chris Erwin:Why's that? Gretta Cohn:So this was in like 2008, 9 and there weren't like a whole lot of opportunities in the audio storytelling space. Like your major opportunities were at public radio stations and public radio stations were highly competitive. It didn't have a lot of turnover. They understood that they were the only game in town if this was the career path that you were interested in going down. So having had a job at a radio station on staff on a show was such a huge opportunity. I don't know that I was like chomping at the bit to leave New York or move to Carolina, although I loved it there. And I had friends who lived there that I knew from the Saddle Creek community. So it was really great. I moved down there and I didn't have to... I can't recall ever feeling lonely. Right. Like I immediately had this community of people, which was amazing, but that gig was only three months. Gretta Cohn:And so I came back to New York and basically spent the next couple of years banging on the door to get back into WNYC, which is when I went to the audio books company where quite a few radio producers worked. Like that's how I found out about it. There were folks who had passed through Studio 360 or elsewhere. And my boss at the audio books company is David Markowitz, who is now currently working in the podcasting department at Netflix. And he previously was at Pushkin and at Headspace and he... So he and I, although our paths crossed at that moment, because our paths have continued to cross over and over again since that time working together with the audio books company. Audio books wasn't my passion, but while I was there I got the idea to pitch the podcast to the audio books company, which they agreed to let me do. And so I had this outlet to just do a little bit of experimenting and to grow some skills and also have just like an outlet to doing this kind of work that I wanted to be doing. Chris Erwin:Had you ever pitched a project or an idea before to any place that you worked at? Gretta Cohn:I pitched stories to Studio 360, but to pitch an idea for something that had not existed before, no. Chris Erwin:It becomes, I believe, The Modern Scholar podcast, is that right? Gretta Cohn:Yeah. You've done like a really deep research. Chris Erwin:Look, it helps to tell your story. Right. So you pitch, and then you get the green light, which must feel validating. It's like, okay, this is a good idea, but now it's got to be more than a pitch, you had to execute. Was that intimidating or were you like, "No, I'm ready to go I got it." Gretta Cohn:I was ready to go. They had an audio book series called The Modern Scholar. Professors would come in and record like 10 hours worth of like Italian history. And so what I did was just have a one hour interview with the professor who was the author of this series and talk about their work, go into detail on something really specific. I will say at that time that like I applied for a mentorship with AIR, the Association of Independence Radio, they gave me a mentor and I had like a few sessions with him and it was great. Like I had someone... I had an editor, right. I wasn't totally on my own kind of like muscling through. And so he really sort of helped refine the ideas for that show and that was a great help. So I'm lucky that I was able to get that. Chris Erwin:What I'm really hearing Gretta is that you moved around a lot and participated in and developed all these different music and audio communities around the US and even the world from like Omaha and international touring and Scandinavia and Europe, and then the Salt and Maine and North Carolina and New York and more, and I'm sure, as you said, with David Markowitz, that these relationships are now serving you in your current business. So it feels like that was like a really good investment of your time where the networking was great, but you also learned a lot and were exposed to a lot of different thinking and ideas. Is that right? Gretta Cohn:Absolutely. Definitely. Yeah. Chris Erwin:After dabbling around a bit for the first decade of the 2000s, you then go to WNYC and you're there for around six years, I think 2008 to 2014. And you work on some cool projects. You're the associate producer at Freakonomics and you also work on Soundcheck. So tell me about what made you commit to WNYC and what were you working on when you first got there? Gretta Cohn:At the time there weren't a lot of options for people doing this work. And WNYC obviously is an incredible place where really amazing work is done, really talented people. It basically was like the game in town, right? Like there weren't a lot of other places where you could do audio storytelling work in this way. There was a pivotal moment that I think could have gone in a different direction, but I had applied for a job at StoryCorps and I applied for the job at Soundcheck. Chris Erwin:What is StoryCorps? Gretta Cohn:They have a story every Friday on NPR that's like a little three minute edited story and it's usually like two people in conversation with each other. It's highly personal. And they're very well known for these human connection stories. It's I think influenced in part by oral history and anthropology, but it's basically this intimate storytelling. And I did not get that job, although I was a runner up and the person who did get the job is now one of my closest friends. But at the same time was an applicant for Soundcheck and I did get that job. And I think it was... That was the right path for me because I have such a passion for music. Right. My background kind of really led me to have an understanding of how to tell those stories. Chris Erwin:What is the Soundcheck format? Gretta Cohn:It changed over time. But when I joined Soundcheck, it was a live daily show about music and really open, like wide open as far as what it covered. So in any given episode, you could have like Yoko Ono there for an interview, you could have the author of a book about musicals from the 1920s, and then you could have like a live performance from Parquet Courts. So it was really wide ranging and varied and super interesting. And there's so much about working on a daily show that's I think extremely crucial to building up chops as a producer because every single day you have a brand new blank slate, you have to work extremely quickly and efficiently. Working in the live setting can create so much pressure because not only are you keeping to a clock, like the show went from like 2:01 to like 2:50 every day, and there had to be certain breaks and you have an engineer and you need the music to cue in a certain place. Gretta Cohn:And so you're like, "Cue the music." And you're whispering to the host like, "Move on to the next question." You're like this master puppeteer with all these marionettes and it's pretty wild. It's really fun, super stressful. You go off stage and it's like- Chris Erwin:It sounds stressful. Gretta Cohn:You can't fix it. You just have to move on and you learn a lot. Chris Erwin:It feels like something, you do that for maybe a couple of years or a few years and then it's like, ah you need a break from that. It's amazing that people who work in like live video or live radio for decades, like kudos to the stamina that they build up. Gretta Cohn:And that's exactly what happened is I needed a break from it. And that's when I went to Freakonomics. Chris Erwin:Got it. Before we go into Freakonomics, you also helped create Soundcheck into an omni-channel media brand where you were launching video and live events and interactive series. Was that something that had been happening in the audio industry or were you kind of setting a new precedent? Gretta Cohn:Our team was tapped to reinvent Soundcheck. So it had been this live daily show for quite some time and I think that WNYC wanted to reshape it for a variety of reasons. So we were sort of tasked, like we pulled the show off the air and kind of went through this like sprint of re-imagining, what the show could be, how it would sound, what it would do. And actually, I remember that I pitched this video series that was a lot of fun. I can't remember the name of it now, but we worked with a local elementary school and we would have three kids sitting behind desks and we would play them clips from pop songs- Chris Erwin:Whoa. Gretta Cohn:... and they would review them and- Chris Erwin:That's a really cool idea. Gretta Cohn:... it was awesome. It was so much fun. We did a lot of live performances and I started producing sort of like more highly produced segments and storytelling for Soundcheck at that time, because there was more space to try and figure that out. Ultimately, what it turned into was like a daily delivery of a show that I think ultimately resembled the old show in many ways, but it was not live anymore. And there were all these other tasks. I also created a first lesson type series for Soundcheck at that time where we would like stream a new album before it came out and I would write a little review. It was really fun. When we pulled the show off the air and we were tasked with re-imagining it was like a sandbox that you just kind of could plan, which was great. Chris Erwin:It's a wide open canvas that you can paint to how you desire. I get that why you were burnt out after that. So then you change it up and you become an associate producer at Freakonomics and you work with the fame, Stephen Dubner and Steven Levitt. How has that experience? Gretta Cohn:It was great. It was challenging. I think that show has incredibly high standards and there's a particular kind of brain that I think works extremely well at that show. At the time, there were two of us who were the producers of the show, myself, who has this background in music and in production. And then the other producer was an economist who had been freshly graduated from economics school. And so we were this pair and I think what ultimately happened was that where I shown where these like human stories and where he shown was like distilling econ papers into sort of understandable stories. And so I think the two of us together really complimented each other. One of my favorite episodes that I worked on was about the Nathan's hotdog contest and one of the sort of like champs who had come up with a particular system for how to win- Chris Erwin:Dunking them in water and all that stuff. Yeah. I remember watching some of those segments online. In a minute they put back like 47 hotdogs. It was something crazy. Gretta Cohn:Yeah, it's wild. Chris Erwin:After Freakonomics, you decided to depart for Midroll and Earwolf. What was the impetus for that? Gretta Cohn:My time at Freakonomics was sort of like naturally coming to a close. I think that while my strength was in this sort of human sort of storytelling, I think the show needed someone who had a little bit more of that like econ background. And so I started to look around the station at WNYC, of other places where I could land, right? Like I'd moved from Soundcheck to Freakonomics, like what would be the next place for me to go? And I couldn't find it. I spent a little bit of time in the newsroom helping to look for a host for a new health podcast and I had conversations with people around the station about various other shows. I think I talked to the folks on the media and this producer, Emily Botein, who ultimately founded the Alec Baldwin podcast and a host of other really great shows there, but it didn't seem like there was space or a role that really made sense for me as far as like the next step is concerned. Gretta Cohn:At that time, Erik Diehn who's now the CEO of the Stitcher empire was in the finance office, I think at WNYC and he left to go to Midroll/Earwolf. Chris Erwin:I didn't realize he was also WNYC. Bannon was also WNYC who's now the chief content officer over there? Gretta Cohn:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chris Erwin:Wow. It was a feeder to that company. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. So Erik Diehn left WNYC and I remember the note that went around, he's going to this company, Earwolf/Midroll. And I was like, kind of filed that away. And then it was probably a few months later that they put a position, they were hiring for a producer. And I sort of leapt at the opportunity. I thought that the shows on Earwolf were awesome. I had not worked really in comedy. Although I think that there's so much crossover in Soundcheck. We really had a lot of license to have basically like whoever on the show, like I booked comedians, I booked authors. Like I booked anyone who had a passion to talk about music, which is like 90% of the world. And so I think that that was really of interest to them. And I had a couple of conversations with Erik and the job was mine. I mean, I went through- Chris Erwin:You make it sound very easy. Gretta Cohn:... a proper vetting and interview process. And there were other candidates, but they gave it to me. And I was really, really excited because I think I was ready for a fresh start and I was ready for something new, something a little bit unknown. I think that I tend to find... Typically, I think if you look over the course of my life, like every few years, I'm like, "Okay, what's the next thing?" And I think that I still feel that way except now I have this entity of Transmitter in which to keep iterating and playing, but I was just ready for the next thing. And it was at that time, a really small company, I was the first New York based employee, like Eric was living in New Jersey. So it doesn't count as a New York employee. There was no office. Chris Erwin:I remember that Jeff Ullrich was the founder and it was bootstrap, didn't raise any venture capital and started I think in the early 2000s, if I remember correctly. Is that right? Gretta Cohn:I don't know the dates, but that sounds right. Chris Erwin:Okay. A little context for the listeners. And Earwolf is a comedy podcast network. So there's a slate of comedy shows and Midroll was the advertising arm of the business that would connect advertisers with the podcasters. But no, please continue. So you're the first New York hire. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. Which was really exciting to me. I was the first producer hired by the company. They had a few really amazing audio engineers out in LA who ran the recordings and they did editing, but there had never been a producer on staff. So it was really this like wide open field. And Jeff at that time, I think had taken a step back from the company, but the moment that I was brought in is when the idea for Howl came into the picture and Howl was a membership subscription-based app that has now turned into Stitcher and Stitcher Premium, it was folded in, into Stitcher and Stitcher Premium. But at the time there was like this real push to create a subscription-based app with like a ton of new material. And one of my first jobs was to work extremely closely with Jeff to figure out what was going to be on this app, who were we going to hire to make material? What producers, what comedians, what actors? There was an enormous spreadsheet, like one of the most enormous spreadsheets that I've ever spent time with. Gretta Cohn:So that was my first task and alongside, which was to sort of from a producer's perspective look at this later shows on Earwolf and start to think about what would a producer bring to the network? What would a producer bring to the hosts, to the way that things were made, to new ideas to bring to the network? And so those two things were sort of happening concurrently. Chris Erwin:The producer role was not defined. You're the first producer there. So it's you coming in saying, "Here's how I can enhance the slate. Here's how I can enhance the content strategy of where we're headed concurrently with we're launching Howl, which needs a lot of content, both from partner podcasters and probably owned and operated and then filling..." So creating a new slate, that's going to fill that. That's going to make people want to buy the membership product or subscription product, which are big questions that Spotify and Netflix and the biggest subscription platforms in the world have huge teams to figure out. And it's like you and Jeff, and maybe a couple more people? Gretta Cohn:There was one developer. Chris Erwin:Wow. Gretta Cohn:It was intense. It was a lot of work. I remember because at that time too, I was the only New York based person. Eric was in New Jersey. I think Lex Friedman came along. He was either already there or came along shortly thereafter, also based in New Jersey. Chris Erwin:And Lex was running sales? Gretta Cohn:Yes. And he's now with ART19, but there was no office. I was working from my kitchen table, much like I do now. It was great. I think what really excited me was like the open field of really sort of figuring out what everything was going to be and it was like off to the races. Chris Erwin:So I actually reached out to a few people that we mutually know to just get like, oh, what are some stories I can have Gretta talk about from the early Midroll/Earwolf days. So I reached out to Adam Sachs who was also on this podcast earlier. He's a childhood friend of mine that was also the CEO of the company when it sold the scripts, as well as Chris Bannon, who I consider one of the most like delightful humans on the planet. I think he was the chief content officer while you were there and he still is now under Eric as part of this new Stitcher Midroll combined empire. And what Chris said is that, like you mentioned Gretta, no office for the first six months and that you were taking meetings, I think in sound booths as well. And that when you finally did get an office, it was so small that you were taking turns sitting down. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. Well, we put our own furniture together. I learned so much from my years at Earwolf that have completely guided and shaped a lot of how Transmitter kind of came into being. Yeah, we put all of our furniture together ourselves in this first office. Chris Erwin:That's good training for you launching Transmitter where it's lean budgets, you're funding from your savings. You probably had to set up your own furniture yourself too. So that DIY attitude persists. Gretta Cohn:Yeah, yeah. And it was exciting. Whereas a place like WNYC is this like well oiled machine, it's also like a big ship that in order to turn 30 people have to be sort of moving things around and like, is the sky clear? There are just like so many little tiny steps that have to be taken to make a decision. Whereas what working at that early stage at Earwolf meant was like you can just make decisions, you just do it. Eric and I went around to see like five different offices. We decided together, "Oh, let's take this one on Eighth Avenue." This is the furniture. All right, let's put it together. I remember walking into the office when the furniture was first delivered and it was extremely dusty and we were wearing dust masks and trying to figure out where's the studio going to go? And it was just really exciting. It's really exciting to sort of pave your way and build something from the ground up. Chris Erwin:I like what you're saying too, is that you can just get things done very quickly. And that's actually one of the things that Bannon brought up about working with you is you guys launched good shows I think in just a matter of a few months or less, like Bitch, Sash and Beautiful Stories from Anonymous People, which was a number one hit on iTunes. And that now making shows like that, if you're at a bigger company with all the bureaucracy and the approvals can take over a year, but you guys were getting stuff done fast, there was no alternative choice. Gretta Cohn:Yeah, we were working very quickly. Chris Erwin:So I'm curious to hear like Beautiful Stories from Anonymous People. That's like an iTunes topper. Was that the first big podcast hit that you had in your career? Gretta Cohn:I would say so. Yeah. I'm trying to remember what if anything came ahead of it, but I'm fairly certain that some of my first meetings after joining the team at Earwolf were with Chris Gethard and working with him on sort of early prototypes of Beautiful Stories from Anonymous People. And he's a remarkable person. He's a brilliant comedian. He's such a good human being. He's an amazing collaborator. And yeah, it was the two of us for a while just, I think the first call that we took, which was sort of just the prototype, the pilot for the show. We're like, "We don't know what's going to happen. Is anyone going to call?" And yeah, I mean, it was really awesome working on that show. And also it was such a departure from the kinds of projects that I had worked on previously, which were extremely buttoned up like very highly produced in the sense that every single step that you took in the process was regimented, right? Like making a Freakonomics episode, making an hour of Soundcheck, thinking about that live daily experience. Gretta Cohn:Like you can't have a minute on the clock that's not accounted for in making those things. And here's a show where we just open a phone line and see what happens for an hour. And it's so freeing to be sort of separated from that regimentation and working with Chris Gethard, I think taught me that you can make something that's really compelling and that's really good. And it was highly produced. Like a lot of thought went into it. There's a lot of post-production, but it didn't need to be the kind of thing where like every single minute of that hour was a line on a spreadsheet. And I love that show. I think that we're all like voyeurs of other people's experiences. Right. And I think it's super interesting the way that people are willing to call and sort of like bare their souls to Chris and working on that show was fantastic. Gretta Cohn:And it was really gratifying and really rewarding when we realized that people were paying attention and they were going to listen. And for that to be one of the first projects of my tenure at Earwolf was great. It was great. Chris Erwin:That's awesome. What a cool story! Bannon even mentioned you work on, I think Casey Holford's Heaven's Gate, which is now an HBO Max series. I think that just came out this week or something, some big projects. All right. So look, in 2015, Midroll/Earwolf sells to Scripps, EW Scripps. Then I think in 2017 is when you start Transmitter Media. I'm curious to hear that after this fun sprint at Midroll and the sale and launching the shows and launching Howl and Wolfpop and all the things, what got you thinking about becoming a founder, which is a very different experience than what you had done for the first 10, 15 years of your career? Gretta Cohn:So after the sale, I think that Adam Sachs kind of offered me the opportunity to reshape my role a little bit. So I had been overseeing the Earwolf shows, developing and producing brand new shows and Howl was in the rear view at that point for me, I believe. I think this is like a classic situation. They're like, "We're going to split your job into two, which half do you want?" And I was like, "This is great." Because it had been a lot to be developing new shows, to have this sort of slate of shows at Earwolf requiring my attention. And I picked the path of new development and that's when they went out and found someone to executive produce the Earwolf network. And in my new role, I needed to build a team and a division. Gretta Cohn:So I had to hire really quickly about six producers to form a team. And there wasn't really a human resources and so it really fell on me to read every application that came in and kind of vet all of the candidates and begin that process of selecting who to talk to. And I probably spent about six months just interviewing. I think that I learned a lot from that process and I think it developed in me like a little bit of an eye for how to spot talent and people that I want to work with, but it also was like supremely exhausting. And at the same time, I think that the company was in a real state of renewal and flux and change following the sale to Scripps, which I think is probably common in any situation where a company is acquired by a company that has a different POV, like maybe doesn't understand podcasting, has its own goals that are separate from what the goals had been at Earwolf. Gretta Cohn:So there were just a lot of strategy shifts that I did my best to kind of keep up with, but ultimately found myself thinking like, "Well, if I were setting the strategy, what would I do? If I were re-imagining sort of the direction that this company was going in, what would I do?" And I looked around and Pineapple Street had been around for a few months, maybe six months. And I went and had some chats with them about sort of like what they were doing and what they wanted to do. And I went over and had a chat with the folks at Gimlet thinking like maybe there would be a place for me there, but ultimately out of my conversations with all of those people, was this kind of clarifying feeling that there was something that I wanted to do and that I wanted to do it differently. I would say it was definitely like burnout that kind of led me to thinking about what I wanted to do next, because it felt like where I was at was like a little bit unsustainable. It was scary. Gretta Cohn:I definitely spent a month sort of quaking with fear on the couch. Like, is this something that I'm going to do? What does it take and what do I need and are there like, long-term consequences that I can't really think of yet? Because I'd always had a job, right? Like I always worked for someone else and enjoyed the freedom, frankly, that that gives you, right? Like you show up, you do the work and then you leave and you can go and take care of whatever. So I just spent a lot of time thinking about it and talking to friends, my close friend who gave me the Cursive records back in the day has run a press, a small press for nearly as long as I've known him. And it's a small non-profit, but it requires the same levels of sort of like entrepreneurship and sort of like- Chris Erwin:Discipline in a way. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. Discipline. That's exactly the word. And so I talked to him a lot about he figured out what he was doing. My brother has had his own post-production business for film for more than five years, so I went for dinner with him and talked about... His business relies on film clients who come to him with a movie that needs mixing and sound effects and sound design. So we talked about that and my husband was acquiring a business. He purchased a retail shop in our neighborhood around the same time too. So there was like a lot of this around me where I had just a lot of conversations about this and I decided to do it. I decided that like the fear was not a good enough reason to not do it. And my alternate path to be quite frank was to leave podcasting because I just couldn't see where my next step was going to be. Gretta Cohn:And so I thought I would take the more productive path, the one where I didn't leave podcasting and I made this decision in December of 2016 to myself and then spent the next couple of months just tucking away money. When I say that I saved money before starting the business, I saved $7,000. Like this is not an enormous coffer of like startup money, but it was enough to pay for an office space and to pay for myself for a couple of months to just see what would happen. And I gave extremely early notice at Midroll and I started to look for clients before I left. So I set it up so that by the time I finally left Midroll in the end of March of 2017 and walked into my office, my new office for Transmitter Media, on the 3rd of April of 2017, I already had clients. So this also gave me that added security of like, "I'm not just walking into this empty pit of like who knows what? Like I have work to do." Chris Erwin:Look, that's just like an amazing transition story, but a couple of things stand out. One it's like double entrepreneur household. A lot of couples that I talk to will say, one will start a new venture business that's risky while other has like W2 salaried income. But your husband had just bought a local retail shop in the neighborhood. You were launching Transmitter Media. So you were smart about mitigating risk of landing of clients in advance. Yeah, it's a lot to take on. And the second thing I heard that I think is really interesting is you felt that there was no path for you to stay in podcasting unless you started your own business. So it's either get out and do- Gretta Cohn:It felt that way. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Get out and do something totally different or commit and go deeper with this incredible network and skillset that you've built up for a decade and a half and start your own thing. You committed to it. And yeah, whether it was meager savings of $7,000, it was enough. And you had the confidence. And I think in the early days, confidence is everything that you need. Tell us about what is Transmitter Media or what was it at that point? Gretta Cohn:Transmitter Media was born as a full service creative podcast company, meaning primarily working for clients who needed podcasts production. And it's really 360 ideation. There's like a paragraph that explains what they want the podcast to be and then we figure it out from there. Like it's quite rare that someone comes in the door and they have like a fully fleshed out idea for a show that has all the episodes outlined and the guests and then this and then that. So it's really starting with a kernel of an idea, figuring out how to make it, what it needs, what's the format and executing it all the way up to launch and continued production. And I think that I saw what Pineapple Street was doing. I respect Jenna and Max from Pineapple Street so much. Gretta Cohn:And it felt like the right model, essentially doing what film production companies do or in a way kind of like what advertising agencies do. You have clients, your clients have a story that they want to tell and as a production company, you figure out how to tell it and how to tell it really well. And I think that for me, having a focus on craft was really important quality over quantity and taking the time to really figure out creatively, what does something need was how I stepped into it. Chris Erwin:Clearly as the industry is growing, in terms of more audio listenership, more brands wanting to figure out the space and still early, I think in 2019, the ad market for audio was like 750 million. So you started the company is like two to three years before that, when you look at the total advertising landscape, which is like over, I think, 600 billion globally. But brands are leaning in, they want to figure it out and you have a knack for audio storytelling, and then you commit. And so who are some of the early clients you work with? I think they were Walmart and Spotify. And what did those first early projects look like and had you had experience working with brands before? Or was it like, "All right, I have a skillset, but I kind of got to figure this out on the fly too."? Gretta Cohn:So it was Walmart, Spotify and TED I think were the three sort of major clients at the very beginning. I hadn't worked directly with brands. I understood working with other media institutions. I understood working with hosts. I also understood developing new shows because that's what my team did at Midroll, Stitcher, Earwolf. Before I left, an entire year of just coming up with ideas and piloting them and throwing them at the wall and kind of running them through PNLs and doing all of that. And so I understood all of that. So we have worked directly with brands, but with Walmart, it was running through an advertising agency full of really great creative people and so we were interfacing more with them. And I think that I learned through them a little bit more about how to work with a client like Walmart. Gretta Cohn:But I think also that everyone we were working with at that time was also trying to figure it out for themselves in a brand new way. So we've now been working with TED for over three and a half years, but at the time the show that we developed with them, WorkLife with Adam Grant, I think was their first sort of step into the sort of slate of podcasts that they have now. They had TED talks daily. It was sort of concurrently like I know what the steps to take and the people that I am making these podcasts for don't, they've never done it. And so I think I learned a lot in those first few projects about how to deliver, how to communicate what we're doing clearly. But it's not like I hadn't already done that before. Like I had the skills, it's just was like refining them and putting them into this really particular box. Chris Erwin:Yeah, just a little bit of a different application. Makes sense. Gretta Cohn:Yeah, exactly. Chris Erwin:When we were talking about having to build a development team at Midroll and Earwolf that you said that you had like a unique sense of how to identify good people. So then you start building your own team at Transmitter and it seems that you've built a pretty special team there. So what was your, like when you think about, if I need great people to make Transmitter a success, what type of people were you looking for and what has like your culture become at your company? Gretta Cohn:I love my team so much. I agree. I agree I think they're really special. I think independent thinkers, people who have a really unique creative spark, people who surprise me. Right. I think that what I learned in doing all this interviews at Midroll was like, I prepare a lot for interviews, kind of much like you prepared for this. I would do deep dives. I would listen to a lot of work from the people who were coming into... had applied for the roles. I also like over the years, there are certain producers who I'll just kind of keep in touch with, or follow their work and be excited by their work and hope that one day they might like to come work at Transmitter. And so I also am really keen on people who have a collaborative spirit. So an independent thinker who's down to collaborate, who doesn't necessarily need to put their fingerprints all over everything and it's like cool if their fingerprints kind of merge with other people's fingerprints and we've got this really sort of group dynamic where we're really, everyone is contributing towards something. Gretta Cohn:And people own projects, people own stories, people own episodes, but ultimately, I think that we have a very collaborative team environment. And we're also a group of people who like to celebrate our successes, even like the teeniest tiniest ones. And so we spend a lot of time like talking about the things that go well and I think that creates a lot of pride in work. And I'm interested in working with people who have that same sense of craft as I do. It's not necessarily about perfection, but it's about doing really good work, making something sound as good as it can possibly be. We have an episode that on Monday I got an email about, saying, "This is in its final edit. I'm not looking for any big edit changes. I'm only looking for a notes on music." And I listened to it and I was like, "Ah." Chris Erwin:Is this from a client? Gretta Cohn:"How did they get editorial note?" Chris Erwin:Yeah, was this a client email or internal? Gretta Cohn:No, it's internal. I have a big editorial note and here's why, and I know that you thought you were almost done, but it's going to be so much better because of this. And typically as a group, we come to that agreement very quickly that it's going to be better and our goal is to make work that sounds very, very good. Chris Erwin:I think that's how you build a great company and also become successful and are fulfilled in that. Like yesterday's win or yesterday's excellence is today's baseline and you just keep upping the threshold. My team calls me out for doing that all the time, but I always say, "Yeah, I hired you guys because men and women, you're incredible and I'm going to hold you big." And that makes for a fun work environment. And it's all in our mutual best interests. So I like hearing you say that Gretta and you just talked about celebrating wins often. What is like a recent win that you guys celebrated, big or small? Gretta Cohn:I mean, earlier today we recorded an interview where the host was in a studio in DC, our guests was in her home under a blanket fort in New Jersey. We had a little bit of a technical mishap before it started. One of the newer producers on our team was managing that. And I know that that could have been a situation where she got so stressed out that she could have been paralyzed by the overwhelming sort of urgency of overcoming this technical mishap, but she was calm and she kept us informed of what she was doing and she figured it out and the interview started late and it went long, but that was fine. And you got to give someone a thumbs up for that. Like that was hard and you figured it out. Gretta Cohn:And another recent win is we are about to launch season two of our podcast, Rebel Eaters Club and we have a promotions team working for us this time, we're making new artwork and we've got the episodes of the season in production. It's just exciting for me when all the pieces start to come together and we're like a month away from launch and it's not done and it will get done. But right now it's just this like ball of energy and that feels very exciting. Chris Erwin:This is your first owned and operated podcast where- Gretta Cohn:Yes. Chris Erwin:... your business has helped create audio stories for a variety of different brands and marketers and publishers and now you're investing in your own IP, which is really exciting. And so what is the general concept of Rebel Eaters Club for people who want to check it out? Gretta Cohn:Rebel Eaters Club is a podcast about breaking up with diet culture. Chris Erwin:Ooh. Gretta Cohn:Yeah. Our host is, her name is Virgie Tovar, and she's sort of one of the leading voices on breaking up with diet culture because it's extremely harmful. It is a huge industry. It's a debilitating thing that is, fat discrimination is something that's like not very often discussed, but such a huge sort of point of discrimination in our culture. And I have learned so much from this podcast, it's funny, it's a weird,

Adam Sachs is the COO of Team Coco and a veteran podcast and digital media executive. Adam works with some of the biggest names in Hollywood like Conan O'Brien, and even Barack and Michelle Obama. We discuss his time as CEO of Midroll Media and its sale to E.W. Scripps, founding a group dating website that he sold to IAC, and the power of being foolishly confident. Full episode transcript is below.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com--EPISODE TRANSCRIPTChris Erwin:Hi, I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up. A podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Adam Sachs:I think we were foolishly so confident. We just thought, "Oh, we have a great idea, so it's going to be successful. Let's just quit our jobs and start this business." And didn't really understand that so much has to go right in order for it to be successful. And not only does so much have to go right, but it takes so long. Chris Erwin:This week's episode features Adam Sachs. Adam is a true digital media OG. And today he works with some of the biggest names in Hollywood, like Conan O'Brien and even the Obamas. So we got a lot to talk about. We'll get into how he started a group dating website and then moved his family to India for it and sold that to Barry Diller. Then we'll talk about how Adam joined as the CEO of Midroll Media, and then orchestrated its sale to E.W. Scripps, one of the biggest deals in podcasting at the time. Chris Erwin:There's many other stories in between. Adam's a fantastic guy. This interview is a lot of fun. Let's get into it. Quick heads up that my interview with Adam was recorded back in January and prior to COVID. Where do you think your entertainment and comedy origins really starts? Adam Sachs:I don't know. I've always been obsessed with comedy from a very young age. I was obsessed with Adam Sandler and then Jerry Seinfeld, and Seinfeld the show was a really important part of my life. At one point, I think I could recite every word of every episode of Seinfeld. I would just watch the tapes over and over and over again. And the same for Adam Sandler movies before that. Yeah. I don't know. Adam Sachs:I just always loved it. And the idea of having a career in comedy, I didn't really know what that would be, but I always wanted to have a career in comedy. And at points I thought, "Well, maybe I'll be a comedian." I never really was I think, talented enough to do that. Chris Erwin:I always remember you as being kind of like a class clown and very funny and very witty and always, like you said, sightings really funny, like Seinfeld references and jokes for everything that we did. But it seemed like you started to take it more seriously when you're like, "Okay, I'm going to join the improv jam in Red Bank." When you started doing that, did that further solidify your like, "Yeah, there's going to be a future for me here." Or you're like, "Oh actually, maybe this is not for me. This is harder than I thought." Adam Sachs:I really enjoyed it. But I was also never one of those people who was super comfortable on stage. I think what I realized after I started doing these improv classes at the local internet cafe, but I did love it. And I thought that the people around me were really talented and I really enjoyed that. And so yeah, even going into college, I thought, "Oh, maybe being on stage isn't really for me, but maybe I'll be a comedy writer. Maybe I'll write TV shows like funny TV shows." Adam Sachs:And I did pursue that. I had a regular college education, and at one point thought maybe I'll end up going to law school and even studied for the LSAT. That was sort of like a hedge, I think, because in parallel I had like a writing partner who I went to college with, Ally Hord who still a good friend of mine and we would write comedy scripts together. And she was the more talented one. She went on to be successful. Chris Erwin:I think you guys are both incredibly talented with great success. Adam Sachs:No. She is really, really funny. And now she's a writer at Seth Meyers. Chris Erwin:I remember Ally Hord. I think I was working because Adam and I both share a Northwestern Wildcat blood. And I was working on a startup idea when I was in grad school there. And I think I had asked Ally who was at Funny Or Die at the time. I was like, "Oh, can you be a beta tester of my product?" And she was always very supportive, and she was like, "Oh yeah, we're using it. We're using it on set. It's super helpful." Chris Erwin:And I don't think they actually really did anything with it, but she was a great sport. All right. So you're at Northwestern, you decide that you're not going to go to law school. And so instead of doing that, you decide to teach English abroad as your first move right out of undergrad. And what was the reason for that? Adam Sachs:I had a friend Howie who's a year above me who he is now a lawyer, but he was also like not sure if he wanted to be a lawyer or what do you want it to do. And he went to Madrid and he and I were really close. We stayed in touch and it sounded really cool. And I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had taken the LSAT. I didn't know if I wanted to go to law school. In my gut felt like I didn't really want to go to law school, but I wasn't sure. And so I was just decided I'll just take a year and like go abroad and maybe I'll figure it out. Chris Erwin:It's almost like in a way a lot of kids now are taking a gap year before they go to school. But getting some free mental space to be like, what do I really want to do to reflect, be exposed to new experiences? And I think a lot of people should do that more often in their careers and more often in their life. And don't. And I remember that you were telling our group about that. I'm like, "Well, Adam has always such an ambitious focus person. Is he already falling off the wagon?" Adam Sachs:I felt like that, to be honest. First of all, going abroad is like, it was a huge privilege. I made a little money teaching English, but not everyone can do it. I don't think, but it was like, I look back on it and yeah, halfway through it, I was like, "My friends are already ... they already have jobs. I'm really falling behind. What's happening here? My college friends are like getting jobs at like JP Morgan or they're in law school or whatever it is." Adam Sachs:And I'm like, "What am I doing? I'm going to be so far behind all of my peers when I get back after this year." And that now looking back, like in retrospect, that was dumb. I shouldn't have been worrying about that because it was an enormously formative experience in my life because it was like I was able to see a lot of the world and meet a lot of people and just gain perspective that I wouldn't have gotten otherwise. And I still have really close friends from that period that live in Madrid or live in Prague. Chris Erwin:No. And that's interesting to hear that you had doubts during that period. But at the end of your year of teaching English as a second language, were you starting to feel comfortable like, "No, this was actually the right decision. I've learned a lot." Adam Sachs:Maybe. Now I feel like it was a right decision. At the end of that year, I don't know. I still felt like I got to get back. I have to get home and like start doing something so that I'm not the bum. Chris Erwin:Yeah. And that's a theme throughout your career narrative is that you've made decisions where I've looked at them early on, was like, "Oh, Adam's going and teaching abroad. That's kind of a weird move right out of undergrad." And then, "Adams he's starting a tech company and is applying to Techstars. What is that? Startups aren't cool yet." And it was always kind of like this contrarian approach where there was probably like doubt within you, but doubt within the peer group. But it's clear that all of these buts have really paid off. Kudos to that. Adam Sachs:Maybe. You're giving me a lot of credit. We'll see where all this goes. Chris Erwin:Okay. So after abroad, you decided to go to Sony. How did that come to be? Adam Sachs:I knew people at Sony from my internship, so I reached out to them and I got a very kind of entry level job in Sony Pictures Television in New York. Chris Erwin:And did you feel that when you were doing that because your career took a big turn when you started your first company soon after, or maybe concurrently while you were at Sony. Did you look at Sony as, "Hey, this is something I want to invest material time into," or is this, "This is just a stepping stone. And I want to get maybe that traditional validation of working at a big company." Adam Sachs:To be honest, I think at first I thought I'll get my foot in the door of this like really great company. Everyone that was a radio TV, film major at Northwestern, if they didn't go into being a writer or director or pursuing that path, if they went into TV, the hot thing was like to go into development. And I was like, "I think I want to go into development." I didn't even know what it meant really. Adam Sachs:I was just like, "But it sounds cool to be a development executive." And I think I applied for those jobs and I didn't get them or whatever. So I got like a different job in the ad sales department at Sony. But I think my thinking was, I'll get in the door there and then I'll figure out how to have a development career. And hopefully along the way, I'll figure out what development means. So, that was my thinking. Chris Erwin:I think I want a development career. I don't know what it is, but it's sound has cache. Adam Sachs:But it sounds cool. And people who do it think it's cool. So I honestly think that was my thinking at the time. And there was also always a New York, LA kind of conflict in my mind. This was in New York, but I did feel like LA was an inevitability at some point if I wanted to pursue that sort of career. But at the same time, my good college friend and I, Dan Osit, we started to talk about this startup idea that we got, that we've got really obsessed with. Adam Sachs:And it was the idea of, we were in our early mid 20s living in New York City and going out with our group of friends and going out and meeting other friends. And we started to think, "Man, isn't it crazy that there's no dating site that were like, you go out with your friends and meet other people. And wouldn't it more fun and less awkward and even safer to have an experience where you went out with your friends and met another group of friends." Adam Sachs:And the more we talked about that idea, he was also in his first or second year of working in a finance job out of college. The more we talked about that idea, the more we thought like, this is a really good idea. And we talked to friends who thought it was a good idea. And I think I was planning to move to LA and move in with Matt and Rob and some of our buddies and just figure out like how to get a development job basically. Adam Sachs:But then I became obsessed with this business idea and this idea of starting a startup. And the more we talked to our friends, the more we got excited about it. And then we quit our jobs and we started pursuing it. Chris Erwin:So how'd you guys think about how to start actually building the company? Today feels like there's millions of guides for like how to build a business. But 15 years ago, there was a lot less resources out there. So what did you guys turn to? Adam Sachs:Here's how different the landscape was then. We sent an email, Dan and I sent an email to like all of our friends, like a blast email being like, "Does anyone know anyone who has ever started a company because we don't know where to start?" Chris Erwin:I may have been on that email. Adam Sachs:I'm sure you were. And we got like one response or two responses, and we ended up meeting the guys who started meetup.com, which was a really good connection for us. But today, if you ask that question, everyone knows someone who has started a startup. Chris Erwin:The Lean Startup, Four Steps to the Epiphany, like all of these books. Adam Sachs:Exactly. And that stuff didn't really exist. Or if it did, we were unaware of it. It was like, there was a less of established path at that point because we didn't know what to do. We said, "Okay, we want to start this thing." But what if we had literally just had to try to start taking people out to coffee to understand how do you do this? Chris Erwin:Yeah. So what was the point where you guys made that decision, we're leaving our jobs, we're getting off this path to become development execs, whatever that is, or financiers? That is a big decision to make at an early age. Also considering like what your peers are doing, your parents probably not understanding the opportunities within the startup space. What was that catalyst point? Adam Sachs:I think we were, and to be honest, like foolishly so confident that we had a great idea. And I think because we knew so little about starting a business, didn't realize how important execution is. And we just thought, "Oh, we have a great idea. So it's going to be successful of course, because our idea is great. And we've asked our friends and they think it's great too. So let's just quit our jobs and start this business." Adam Sachs:And didn't really understand that so much has to go right in order for it to be successful. And not only do so much have to go right, but it takes so long and it's going to take a lot of endurance. But it was not easy. Like my friends all continued on in their jobs in New York City. I had to move home. I didn't really have a paying job for a long time. So I had to move in back in with my parents in New Jersey. Chris Erwin:Yeah. I really like how you described that you had to be foolishly confident. I think when you do the math, the odds are totally stacked against you in starting a company. So you have to be delusional in a way and saying like, "I can do this." And so whether that's just like in your blood or in your nature, or at your point, you just didn't even know any better. Adam Sachs:No, I just didn't know any better. Chris Erwin:That's an asset. Adam Sachs:Exactly. I think it was truly in my ignorance helped in that way, because I just didn't know any better. Chris Erwin:I think I remember. So you used to host at your father's house in Little Silver, used to host a lot of basketball games. You play a lot of like three on three or five on five, what have you. I think we were over there one day and I think I had heard rumors that you're like, "Adam's starting this company and now he's applied to Techstars and he's getting into this program." Chris Erwin:And I was like, "Adam, I don't understand what you're doing. I'm confused. What is this?" Startups we're in cool yet. But you had a mission, you had a plan. And so then you applied to Techstars. What was that application process like? Adam Sachs:We realized that we had to raise money in order to build this thing. And so we ended up meeting through friends of friends some early stage VCs. They were rightfully for the most part, like, "You guys are not really investible at this point. You don't really know what you're doing." And we hadn't really built much at that point. But one of the VCs who really, I think believed in us was this guy, Jason Mendelson, and his partner, Seth Levine at the Foundry Group in Boulder. Adam Sachs:And we got connected with them and they were also like, "You guys are onto something here, but you're in New York, we're in Boulder." But I think they really liked us and believed in us. And so they encouraged us to apply to Techstars. And we had never heard of Techstars before, but they're intimately involved in starting Techstars and supporting Techstars. Adam Sachs:It was not an obvious thing for us to do because I had never heard of it. I didn't know what a incubator or accelerator was at that point. Again, this is a different time where now there's a million accelerators. Chris Erwin:That's great. And this was literally 12 years ago. So it's not we're talking about 35 years ago. This was like within generally past decade. Adam Sachs:Not that long ago, but it was a different world. And so yeah, we applied and I think through the help of those guys, we ended up getting in. But even then I think, again, points to our kind of foolish ignorance, we were like, maybe we're a little too far along for this Techstars thing is what we thought. We were like, we have some users on in our Facebook app. That's how we started. Chris Erwin:Okay. It's just also funny to hear, like this speaks to the delusional part of actually we're pretty advanced, like we have users, so we actually really needed to be a part of this program. Maybe we should just skip this. That's what you guys wanted. Adam Sachs:Again, pretty dumb, but it was really, really valuable experience. It's a mentorship driven experience. We needed mentorship. I studied history and film in college. Dan, I think studied communication or something. We didn't really know what we know. And also there's really not a great curriculum probably even to this day for starting a company. In my opinion, you have to talk to people who have done it. Learn from people who have done it. Adam Sachs:I think it's not something that you graduate, even if you, I know very few schools have an entrepreneurship program, but I think even if you graduated with a degree in entrepreneurship, you still don't really know what you're doing until you get in there and start doing it. Chris Erwin:Yeah. So you're at Techstars, clearly it was a positive experience. You graduate. Adam Sachs:Yes. Chris Erwin:And then did you raise money immediately upon graduation at demo day? Adam Sachs:Yeah, immediately. We had a really good presentation actually. We were working with our mentors and again, these guys, Jason and Seth at Foundry Group became our mentors. And the second half really of Techstars is like for preparing, at least at this point. It might've changed. Again, this is 2008, so this is a long time ago. But at that point, the first half is a lot of mentorship. The second half is really like preparing for demo day. Adam Sachs:And I remember we put together a presentation, a draft representation. We brought it over to Jason in his office and sat down with him and walked him through it. And he was just like, "Yeah, it's pretty good. I don't know. It's fine. But it's missing you guys," is what he said. And I think he'd gotten to know us and know our personalities or whatever. And we went back and I remember we locked ourselves in a room with our small team of four of us for like a weekend and came back to him on Monday. And it was a funny presentation. It was like a comedy driven presentation and he was just like, "This is it, this is it." Chris Erwin:Actually I never thought about that. But thinking about your roots in comedy, entertainment, improv, and then writing with Ally at Northwestern, pitching to investor is about telling an incredible story of excitement, why we are the best team to do this, really peaking their interests. And I was like, you have like the formula for that. And I guess that's what this guy wanted. And then he didn't know what you had in you. And you're like, "No, let us show you." Adam Sachs:Yeah. So the presentation went great. And I think for a lot of people, did a lot of the VC side of it. There's 300 VCs in the audience or something like that. I think for a lot of them, it was the first time they saw like an actual funny VC pitch or whatever, like startup pitch. And I don't think it was necessarily like the humor that attracted ... Any smart VC is not going to be like, "I'm going to invest in the funniest entrepreneur." Adam Sachs:On the surface, it was funny. But when you got beneath it, it was like, "These guys actually know, they have a good handle on what their vision for the business is." So yeah, we did raise money immediately. Chris Erwin:An interesting highlight from that point though, is I think when investors see for an early stage company is okay, do they have a product? Have they built something? Are they solving a real problem? But it's so early. Even if they have a little bit of users is likely pre-revenue. So there's just an incredible amount of risk. So they're really betting on the founders, on the ability of the founders to attract future capital, tell a good story, recruit a team, and build a team and motivate people. Chris Erwin:And so what they could have seen in you is like, "Okay, there's this magnetism of this team that's going to be able to attract people to their team and get them excited about this ridiculous mission that they're on." So it seems like you have this asset of your storytelling, was actually like checking a major box for these investors. If you think about it that way. Adam Sachs:Yeah. Maybe. We also rushed the fundraising because this was like August, September of 2008, and the financial world was starting to just collapse around us. And so, once we saw that happening, we were pushing our investors to like, get your checks and get your checks. Because that we knew that very shortly after that, we could feel like the economy was collapsing. Chris Erwin:Got it. So money comes in the bank. And how much did you raised initially? Adam Sachs:So funny. Again, only 12 years ago, but we raised a series A and it was like a $1.2 million, which today is like a pre seed amount of money. But at that point, that was our series A. Chris Erwin:Okay. And that was on top of a little bit of family and friends money that you raised. Adam Sachs:Yeah. Chris Erwin:Got it. So you have the money, your team is feeling excited. You move to New York City. I remember that you had offices in Union Square. I don't know if you moved immediately there. Adam Sachs:Yeah, we did. Chris Erwin:I was part of a beta test for a group date in the lower Eastside. Adam Sachs:I think like a Max Fish or something. Chris Erwin:Yeah. There's like six or seven guys. Six or seven girls. We're all competing and say who's getting them like the most amount of face time with the other side. It was a really funny experience. There was also a launch party that was associated with it. Adam Sachs:Yeah. At Barna, which no longer is on Park Avenue South. Chris Erwin:So I remember I was like, okay, I don't know what Adam's doing, but if I get invited to cool parties and get to go on like group dates and maybe meet women, I'll be supportive. All right. So tangent. You're in New York City, you have the company, and now you're there for the next six years. What do you remember as a major inflection point after raising that money and saying, "Okay, now we're scaling this company." What were some of those key milestones? Adam Sachs:One of them, the biggest one for sure is we were out there hustling having parties. We would literally like throw a party at a bar in the East Village, bring our digital cameras because that's how you took pictures then and computers and buy people drinks to like sign them up in exchange for having them have a profile on our site. So we'd be like, "Hey, do you want to try our site? We'll buy you a drink." Adam Sachs:And so, we would then take their picture at the bar and make a profile for them. Because it was a grind to get people to sign up. Chris Erwin:Were most people amenable to that? Or were some people turned off? Adam Sachs:Half and half I think. We had like maybe dozens of people signing up every day in New York, but we'd go home at night and look at our Google analytics and be like, "Hundreds of people signed up today in India." Or like thousands of people signed up today in India at one point. And so that was sort of the inflection point, which is like, we're pushing too hard for something that maybe there's not as much of a demand for here as there is for other places. Adam Sachs:And so at that point it was like, let's understand this, what is going on here? We didn't understand India or some of the other markets where we were seeing this natural, organic demand, and India was one of them, for sure. Also like Singapore and Malaysia and Indonesia and other Asian countries. And at that point, it was like, that was a huge inflection point. And it was let's understand what's going on here so that we can decide, is this worth pursuing. Chris Erwin:We're back from a quick break and maybe unbeknownst to Adam, but I just actually we have a bunch of our high school friends on group text, and I just sent a crowdsource message of any questions that we should ask Adam on the podcast. So I might check this at the end when we get to the rapid fire, that has been seated within the group. Adam Sachs:Awesome. Chris Erwin:So we'll see what happens. Adam Sachs:Our friends are deviance. I don't want to see what their questions are. Chris Erwin:So we were just talking about you're now in New York City with funding, you're scaling Ignighter. You're hustling, you're grinding, you're going out to the bars, you're signing up people like on location. So then what you're just touching on, which is interesting is this theme of the unexpected. So you're building this business, you're looking at your metrics, and all of a sudden you're seeing user growth in India and in Singapore and these Asian countries, that's not what you're necessarily intending for, but it's happening. Chris Erwin:So as you start seeing this information, there's certain types of leaders and people that would say, "That's that's interesting, but we're not going to do something about it." What was the point where you're like, "This is meaningful. And now we're actually going to pursue this. This is opportunity." What was that decision making process? Adam Sachs:At first, it was like, this is interesting, but it's not our mission. So we ignored it. For I don't know how long, for maybe a few months. And then eventually it was like the discrepancy between how hard we were hustling and grinding to sign up users one at a time in New York versus literally I think at our peak, there were like 5,000 people a day signing up in India. And it was like, "What are we doing here? Let's figure this out. What is it that's making it click there?" Adam Sachs:And that's when we started to talk to people who knew the market way better than we did, talk to people who knew the culture better than we did. Chris Erwin:How do you do that? Who do you talk to? The same thing, like figuring out who do you talk to about Techstars? Did you call up your investors, did call friends? Adam Sachs:It was a little bit of both. Yeah. And we were able I think through our investors and through the Techstars network to meet people who are either entrepreneurs who were maybe of Indian descent and had family in India or who had family that were building companies in India. We actually shared an office with a company, coincidentally enough called exclusively.in. I don't know if they exist anymore, but they were a company that was building like fashion products in India. Adam Sachs:And they were really closely connected to the market. And so they started to like help us and connect us to angel investors in India and VCs in India. And those people help. Once we started to understand this, we went out and we raised more money from investors who were interested in that path in pursuing that in India story. Chris Erwin:Growth in Indian market. Adam Sachs:Yeah. Chris Erwin:Okay. And how much money did you raise at that point? Adam Sachs:I think maybe three or three and a half million, something like that. Chris Erwin:Okay. And at this point, are you feeling excited? Adam Sachs:Excited but scared too. We'd never even been there at that point. We still hadn't even been to India. It was hard enough I think building a company like in a market that we knew inside and out. And so the idea of building a company somewhere else felt like how's that going to work? Chris Erwin:I can understand the mix of emotions because maybe there was some frustration with the challenge in getting traction in the United States where you were focused. So this is in a way maybe a bit of a lifeline. Adam Sachs:It felt like a lifeline, but it also felt like we were riding blind a little bit too. Our first move was like, now that we know we have all the traction in India, let's put up a landing page so that only people in India see that shows people that look like they're in India and not people that look like they're in New York so that and you can kind of geo target in that way. But we didn't know the market well. Adam Sachs:So I remember our first landing page in India we're like, here, these are two beautiful looking Indian people. Let's put them on the landing page. And it turned out, we put a picture of like a bride, like a woman wearing a bride's outfit. And we were trying to be like the antithesis of like one of those like serious like marriage dating sites. And it was like literally a woman in bride garb. Adam Sachs:And then one of our investors who I guess knew the market was like, "What are you doing? That's not what you guys are." Chris Erwin:Not your brand. Adam Sachs:Yeah. That's so off brand. So it took us a while to figure it out. Chris Erwin:This all leads to a point where you end up moving to India. Adam Sachs:Yeah. Chris Erwin:And you moved there with your wife, Molly. Adam Sachs:Sort of. We had an apartment in New York where we lived and then I got a place in India and mostly it was me going over there. Molly did go. But it was mostly me going by myself. Chris Erwin:Is there one memorable moment of like you're in India and you're just in shock being like, "Wow, this is just feels so different." Adam Sachs:I think just in general, just the business norms were really hard. Like when we wanted to start processing payments, for example, I remember we had to get some kind of certification from like the Royal Bank of India or something like that. And then that took forever and we had to be compliant in a certain way that I didn't really understand. And at one point I was really an expert in all this stuff. Adam Sachs:And I've fortunately since forgotten, I think most of it. But it was like very hard. And then also people didn't really have credit cards or a lot of people didn't have credit cards. And so you have to figure out other ways to pay. And there were people that were paying with their mobile phone credits and it was very, very different and in that way, challenging. Chris Erwin:Got it. So then you eventually sale to Barry Diller's IAC. How did that come to be? Adam Sachs:Well, to be honest, and this is something that they don't really tell you when you start a dating site is that there's not that many buyers out there for dating sites. There's one universal behemoth in the dating world that wants to be the globally dominant business and that's IAC. So a typical sales process would have competitive nature attached to it where there's like a bunch of different companies bidding for your business. Adam Sachs:It was hard for us to drum up a competitive process when there's like really just one buyer out there. Chris Erwin:So you sell to IAC. And then at that point, I think that was a big milestone because you started a company, you ran it, build and scale the team, transitioned to an international market, and then you exited it. And I don't believe this was like a major liquidity event for you, but it was a sale. And that is a big stamp of approval. And so now it's kind of like you have this big entrepreneur stamp on your back. Chris Erwin:And so next, I think that you ended up going to Midroll Media, and this is another major inflection point in your career where you kind of lay the foundation for becoming this early and seasoned audio executive. And this now like fast growing industry. And what sold you on going into podcasts and audio and then moving to LA? Adam Sachs:First of all, all my time spent on planes going back and forth from New York to Mumbai and then being in Mumbai by myself, I had become obsessed with podcasts. I was listening to them all the time. They were my companion in India, basically. And as we have already established, always wanted a career in media. I've joked, like I've studied radio, TV, film. I never thought I would be doing something in the radio piece of it, or the RTVS, because that wasn't even really part of the curriculum. Adam Sachs:But I became obsessed with podcasts. I met a guy named Jeff Alrich who started Earwolf. And in fact, Ally Hord introduced us. And I met him when I was still at Ignighter or step out. And we just met us to like CEOs kind of commiserating as startup CEOs often do about like the various challenges. But I really loved his business. Even though it was still small at that point, it was bootstrapped. Adam Sachs:So he didn't have investors and it was profitable and it was growing and it was in an area of media that I loved and that I felt like was just kind of getting started. So yeah, we got to know each other. And then the timing worked out that after we sold to IAC, he reached out saying like, "I'm looking for someone to help me build this business, like a COO type. Do you have anyone in mind?" Adam Sachs:And I throw my hat in the ring. And then also the other piece of it was that we, at this point, had like a baby in New York City and we were feeling kind of done with New York. It was hard to have a kid in New York. I think the suburbs didn't really appeal to us. As I mentioned, LA always had some certain draw. We didn't necessarily know that we wanted to leave New York and go to LA, but this just felt like the right opportunity to try it. Chris Erwin:It's interesting. It feels like it's checking a few boxes for you. Because I know in talking to you at that time, I think you had a really great experience at Ignighter. You learned a lot, you've built a great investor network, but it was challenging. You had with investors, a lot of different stakeholders in your business, different points of view, weren't profitable and sustainable and a lot of the stage of the company. Chris Erwin:So Adam, you have a really exciting run at Midroll before you exit a couple of years later. You joined as COO and then in just nine months, you're promoted to CEO. So tell us about that journey. And what did you first focus on when you joined the team? Adam Sachs:It was a lot, we were building this new network called Midroll. The business started as Earwolf and that was continuing to grow, but the new- Chris Erwin:Earwolf was a network of comedy podcasts. Adam Sachs:Correct. Yeah. But the new thing that we were building, which we saw as our real growth opportunity was Midroll and Midroll is what connects podcasters to advertisers. They really hadn't been professionalized at that point in the industry. But as the industry was growing, it was like more and more podcasters wanted to make money, obviously. Adam Sachs:And advertisers were starting to realize that podcast listeners are passionate and they develop this intimate relationship with the podcaster. And so podcast ads could be very powerful in that way. And so that's where we saw a really big opportunity and started to invest a lot. It grew very quickly. Chris Erwin:It's interesting to hear the timing of that because it reminds me when I was at Big Frame, which was, we were creating short form, social content online and managing digitally native creators, people that were on ... YouTubers, people that were on Facebook, on Instagram, et cetera. And a big part of our growing business was connecting marketers and advertisers with our talent. Chris Erwin:And so that's a very similar dynamic to what was happening with you. Okay. So you're leaning into that. And then did you know that within like nine months that the CEO is in my orbit or it's going to happen or it was kind of just bestored upon you? Adam Sachs:No. That wasn't the case. We were growing quickly trying to add people quickly. The business started in a very ... it's credits Jeff, but in a very scrappy way adding more people and elevating the early people who had really done a great job. And I honestly think that the business got to a point where it was ready to go to a different level. There was a scrappy level. Adam Sachs:And I think once it was ready to go to that growth level, Jeff kind of felt like it was better handled if I were in the day to day of it all, and we didn't have a board, which was great. And another thing that really appealed to me and so like Jeff and I were the board, basically. Chris Erwin:Make fast decisions. Adam Sachs:We were able to make really fast decisions. And so, he was still involved in the business, but not really in the day to day. Chris Erwin:I just want to quickly pause here. I think there's a good takeaway for our listeners that explains your rapid rise at Midroll. So I've worked with you and known you for many years, and you've also developed an industry reputation with many others that you're very clear thinker and strategist, and that you have a point of view on market opportunity. You do a quick pros cons analysis, and then you make a swift decision to move forward. Chris Erwin:And then on top of that, you also have this great magnetism that allows you to build teams and rally smart people around you. I believe that this has caused success throughout your career and is really powering your growth now at Team Coco, which we'll get into in a little bit. So I just wanted to call that out quickly. Adam Sachs:I appreciate it. Chris Erwin:So now you're CEO and as we've talked about, because I was a COO at my last company and we used to joke that COO is like, you have a lot of responsibility. You're essentially running the company, running the team, but the buck doesn't stop with you. Like if there's a really tough decision to make like, that's the CEO or that's the founder. Like that's not me, that's them. So you get to be like everyone's best friend. Adam Sachs:Yeah. COO is secretly like the best job in the world. Chris Erwin:100%. So now that changes for you, now you're the CEO, the big decisions really fall on you. How did that transition feel? Adam Sachs:A little bit scary. And honestly, one of the reasons it was scary and I had experienced being a CEO because I was CEO of Ignighter. So I knew what it entailed, but one of the things that was a little bit scary about it was actually that we had so much momentum. We didn't make this transition because things weren't working and we needed to try something new, that wasn't really the impetus at all. It was really about growth and that almost put more pressure on me. Adam Sachs:It was like, don't fuck this up because we have a good thing going and we're growing quickly. So, that part felt scary. It was also challenging to be a part of the management team. If you think there's like the CEO and then below the CEO, there's like three or four C level executives. It was a little bit challenging at first or scary at first to be one of those three or four people on the management team who then became the CEO and had to manage the people who were my peers or on that same level as me. Adam Sachs:So that part is always intimidating at first. I think it certainly didn't come without any growing pains that would never happen, but it worked, it worked. Chris Erwin:That's a very interesting call out. When you started Ignighter and essentially it's nothing, so there's like nothing to lose. It's like you're at zero and there's all this upside potential and you're like, "All right, let's see where we can take it." But now, you go to this company that was founded by someone else that has some real momentum and traction and the rains are given over to you. Chris Erwin:That's a totally different responsibility set or feeling. Clearly great experience. So now you're the CEO and it's funny at this time, this is also people were calling this is Peak Podcast. This I think is around 2014. And so I think there's a chance for a liquidity event. There's a chance to sell the company. What was the impetus for that sale? Adam Sachs:It was a couple of things. It was the first thing that you said, which is like podcasting was having a moment. Serial came out and Gimlet launched and suddenly a bunch of media companies were saying like, "We have to figure out what's our podcast strategy?" And so we started to get a lot of inbound interest from both investors and potential acquirers and having, like you said, we've been so excited about not having investors and we were profitable and growing quickly. Adam Sachs:Personally, I didn't want to bring on investors. And I think that the team agreed. We didn't need it. So why bring in other people to just start having their own kind of agendas? But we did feel like if there was the right buyer, it should be something worth pursuing, at least having the conversations. It was like, because we were bootstrapped was owned by a few of us, the business. Adam Sachs:So, we could have a meaningful outcome potentially without the number having to be astronomical. And so, we thought who knows, maybe this is just the first wave and it goes away forever. And so, we didn't want to miss out on podcastings moment if something new came along. And then the other piece of it is that there was money flowing into the space competitively. Adam Sachs:And so it was like if we were determined to stay bootstrapped and we didn't want to raise money while people around us were raising money and what does that mean from a competitive landscape? So, that was like all the things we were thinking about at that time. Chris Erwin:It was a beautiful moment to sell. And I think the timing was great. And I remember when I was at Big Frame, this is just after we had sold the Awesomeness TV and I was in the offices at our offices at Burundian Olympic. I remember you calling me like late night, like six or 6:30 PM. And we spoke for like an hour, hour and a half of like the pros and cons of a sale. And how do you manage a sale process? Chris Erwin:Because there was a lot that you were thinking through and I could tell that this was a big decision you were taking very seriously and that you are excited, but also scared at the same time. Adam Sachs:That's totally true. I guess as they're six month process of going around and pitching the company. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Which can be brutal because the moments are, this is great. We're headed in a great direction, but this could also fall apart at any moment. There's an investor that's excited, but then in the middle of doing diligence, maybe it all goes away and we miss our moments. Adam Sachs:Yeah. Exactly. Chris Erwin:[crosstalk 00:37:11] on edge the whole time. Adam Sachs:For sure. And I think we were worried that if that were to happen, we did have such great business momentum, if that were to happen, would that kill our business momentum, would that kill everything? It felt a little risky at the time. Chris Erwin:Unique moment that happened where I think as you are talking to different prospective buyers, you had a conversation with Andy Redmond who was the president of Tornante and who we also knew who went through our high school year above us. And that there was a unique moment that happened at Spargo. Tell us that quick story. Adam Sachs:So Andy Redmond is the president of Tornante. Tornante is Michael Eisner, former Disney CEO, it's Michael Eisner's vehicle for investing and acquiring companies. And when I came out to LA, I reached out to Andy and we hadn't stayed in touch really. Our families kind of know each other. We knew each other a little bit growing up, but we hadn't really stayed in touch. But I just reached out to him because I thought he had such a cool job. Adam Sachs:Tornante acquires media companies and invest in media companies. They make content. They make really great stuff. They make BoJack Horseman, for example. They do that. And then they also like just bought a English premier league soccer team. So they do all this and, it all kind of rolls up to Andy. So I thought Andy had such a cool job. And so we met or we had lunch early on when I was out here and he immediately, I think, got interested in what we were doing, and we stayed in touch. Adam Sachs:And then during the sell process, we communicated and he started to get excited and brought us in for several meetings. And then one of them was a lunch at Spargo with Michael Eisner. I told you the story because it was one of my very just surreal, most surreal, I guess- Chris Erwin:LA, Hollywood. Adam Sachs:Exactly, where I was like at a table with Michael Eisner who by the way is from Red Bank. I don't know if you know that. His whole family's from there. So we had this whole conversation with Andy about we all grew up in the same area and- Chris Erwin:Improv jam. Adam Sachs:He was one of the funniest at improv jam. His guessing was incredible. And so we had this whole conversation and he was really excited about what we were doing. And at one point during the meal, Wolfgang puck came over and sat down with us at the table and started giving Michael Eisner a hard time in a playful way about building a house too big that it was obscuring his view and- Chris Erwin:You're just like, what is happening? Adam Sachs:Yeah. And then literally Sidney Poitier's at the next table. And that was all like catalyzed by Andy. It was a very funny thing because we grew up in this very small town that seemingly very disconnected from all things Hollywood and literally geographically, like on the other side of the country. Chris Erwin:There must be something in the water in Monmouth County. That's a really funny story. So you end up selling the company to E.W. Scripps. You end up going over there and helping the company transition for a bit over a year. At that point you had, we were talking about like you had the entrepreneurial stamp on your back from Ignighter, and now you have in the sale of Midroll to E.W. Scripps. Chris Erwin:You have a stamp on your back as you are a legitimate audio executive. Podcasting an audio, digital audio is a fast growing industry. And Adam is a leader that has incredible relationships, has built an incredible portfolio of audio content. While at Earwolf, you also were able to help build out the ad sales arm and build out this scalable profitable business with a successful sale and exit. Chris Erwin:So you have this brand as you're an audio executive. And I think that's really exciting. It's really great. I'm also curious to ask, I don't know if anyone has asked you this, is that the brain that you wanted one, and then two, do you feel that that could also pigeon hole you a bit where it's like, okay, I'm on this path, but maybe my career ambitions are a bit broader in entrepreneurship or in other areas of entertainment? What do you think about that? Adam Sachs:It's a good questions. I am sure I'm pigeonholed in some ways. I'm sure people look at me for better or worse as an audio guy. I think a couple of things. One is, I do think there are a lot of things I've learned in building companies. And certainly, probably more specifically in building Midroll Stitcher that are applicable outside of just audio here at Team Coco, we're building a digital media business. Audio is a really important part of it. Adam Sachs:But there are things I learned through that process that I think are applicable. But I still believe in audio in a way that I think if I were pigeonholed into something that I thought that I wasn't super bullish on or that I thought was kind of lame, then it might be more of a bummer. But I think audio is cool. It sounds dumb. But I don't mind that that's like my brand, if it is my brand. Adam Sachs:And I think it's allowed me to meet a lot of cool entrepreneurs and work with a lot of cool companies. And I still think that the industry is in its early days. And so, I don't mind that being like part of or all of my brand. Chris Erwin:When people look at your career story, just even if just listening to this podcast, that it's very multifaceted. And then in entertainment, I agree, audio is not pigeonholing you because audio is a medium to express yourself and to create story, to share ideas, and to create IP. And that can manifest in a variety of ways, whether it's a TV, film, or a theme park, or short form social content, and you look at all the others in the same. Chris Erwin:And so I think it's actually a really fun, medium to play in right now because it allows you to experiment in a very low cost and rapid yet efficient way. And then if you want to go premium as well, like Conan Needs a Friend, one of the best performing comedy podcasts on the planet right now, there's so much that you can do, but just one aspect of a business. Adam Sachs:Yeah. I agree. I love audio. So, I don't mind it. Chris Erwin:Adam Sachs tagline, I love audio. Awesome. You sell Midroll to E.W. Scripps and I believe the price point was somewhere in the range of if there was like an earn out maybe 55 to 65 million-ish in that range. Adam is nodding. So I think I'm in the right ballpark. So after the sale, Adam has a lot of options. It's after Midroll, you then go do a stint as an entrepreneur residence at Chernin, the Chernin Group. Chris Erwin:You work with some brilliant minds like Jason Bergman and Mike Hearns and the rest of the Austin team over there. Steve [Cosnio 00:43:18] and I'm going to blank on a bunch of other names. You even start advising higher ground audio, the production arm of Barack and Michelle Obama. There's a lot of different things that you can do. And I think some of the options include, you could start your own company, start another company. Chris Erwin:Or you could go work for a team, and you actually end up working for Conan and Team Coco and overseeing his entire digital business. In that moment, how do you decide what you're going to do? Adam Sachs:The way you describe it makes it sound like I had a lot of opportunity, and I did. It's true, but it wasn't obvious to me what to do which is part of the reason I went to Chernin and I was just like, I don't have a ton of conviction around a business that I want to start. I know what it takes to build a business from the ground up. And there's nothing that I'm obsessed over right now that I just know I have to go do this. Adam Sachs:The idea of joining something that was early and interesting appealed to me. So my thinking was like, let me just go where there's really, really, really smart people. And to your point, the Chernin Group, especially as it relates to media, has some of the smartest. And so spending a year with them, first of all, learning how to be an investor, which I had zero experience doing, really appealed to me because I wanted to just understand that world a little more. Adam Sachs:Meeting really smart both investors and entrepreneurs on the media side or in the media world was really appealing because I felt like it would help me just figure out what to do next. And with the Conan thing, and maybe it goes back to this theme of not overthinking it, but it was this opportunity of you can work with arguably the funniest person on the planet who has a reputation for also being a good guy and a team that really is filled with good people and that like each other, and that have been around here for many, many, many years as he explores. Adam Sachs:And they all explore launching something new, but with the added benefit of brand and this talent and this reach that's all here, it was kind of like, let me just see what happens. And as we've already established here, comedy's very important to me. And there was talk of maybe starting a podcast network and that was appealing to me for obvious reasons. So yeah, it literally just checked a lot of boxes. Chris Erwin:How were you first introduced to Conan and Team Coco? Adam Sachs:Through Chernin. It was like, there was a connection between some of the people that turned in and some of the people at Team Coco. And that's how I got to know them. And I did a little bit of consulting work to help think through this business plan, because what it is is Team Coco has existed since 2010, Will keep me honest, 2010. Yes. But it wasn't until a year and a half ago that there was this pivot into building it into a full on media business. Adam Sachs:It existed as a really successful marketing arm that marketed digitally the TV show, the linear show. And that became its own business in a way. The marketing of that, the distribution of those digital clips from the TV show and monetizing them across YouTube and social channels became a business. And then that ultimately became the foundation for what Team Coco is today. Chris Erwin:Just to be clear for the audience, the tent pole format that Conan has is his talk show with TBS. Adam Sachs:Correct. Chris Erwin:Got it. So you're like, okay, this is an amazing marketing arm, but you also had a point of view of like there's a lot more to do with this. Adam Sachs:Yeah. And a lot of that came from my experience at Midroll center, but the year I spent at Chernin, meeting a lot of what I thought were some of the best and most forward thinking media companies. Chris Erwin:And onboarding into Team Coco, it seems that one of your first early projects was getting Conan podcast network off the ground. Is that accurate? Adam Sachs:Yeah, that's true. They had tried a couple, maybe like pilots of a podcast. There was talk of doing a podcast. Conan was half interested, but pretty skeptical. Chris Erwin:On his podcast, Conan Needs a Friend sometimes he'll make references to you as the executive producer. He's like, "Yeah. I don't know what this podcast thing is. Is this even real? Supposedly we have downloads. I still don't know if there's money coming from it. I don't see it." Adam Sachs:Yeah. I think now he finally gets it, but yeah, for a while even after it launched and was successful, he was still like, is this thing real? I don't know. Am I sitting alone in this room talking into a microphone and no one's hearing it? But what's happened is now he gets stopped everywhere he goes, and people tell him, "I love the podcast." So he knows it's real. Or it's like some massive Truman Show scam where everyone is just faking it and coming up to him. But yeah, no, he knows it's real at this point, which is good. Chris Erwin:He has one of the best performing shows. That's probably important. I want to just jump back for a quick sec. Was it hard to get the teams buying or when you were getting recruited, was it like, "Look, this is what I want to do here. I want to build out a podcast network." And so when they brought you on, it was like, "All right, we know what Adam's plan is. So if we actually bring him on a COO, we're going to get things done." Or was it like an uphill battle? Adam Sachs:We put together a business plan that included a variety of verticals, audio being one of them. It was like the digital distribution business, which is the core business. It was live events, it was podcasts. It was stand up specials. And that was part of the whole business plan that I helped put together. And there was buying on the business plan holistically for sure. Adam Sachs:I think what we've seen over the past year is that audio has become a major investment area for us. And it helps that Conan's podcast has done so well. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Maybe you can also reference this like, look, if Obama is leaning into this, there's something. Adam Sachs:Exactly. Now that Conan is one of many A-listers or a plus listers, like the Obamas who are understanding this is a huge opportunity. Chris Erwin:So now you launched Conan Needs a Friend and there's a few other formats as well that you guys have launched. Remind me. Adam Sachs:Yeah, we have several podcasts. We have Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. We have the three questions with Andy Richter, Inside Conan, and Important Hollywood Podcast are all unscripted podcasts that we've launched. We've launched two scripted series so far as well, one called Frontier Tween and one called Smarter. And those are scripted narrative, audio podcasts. Chris Erwin:And are those exclusively on the Luminary platforms? Adam Sachs:Those are exclusively on Luminary. Exactly. Chris Erwin:Got it. Thinking about 2020, how do you want to build out the audio initiative for Team Coco? Where do you guys see as more opportunity? Adam Sachs:We want to continue doing both scripted and non-scripted. So far, all of our unscripted podcasts have been hosted by people literally within this building, Conan and Andy Richter and Mike Sweeney and Jessie Gaskell who are both writers on the Conan Show. And so for us, and this is like a broader theme just for us to be successful as a business, we have to expand our talent network, both in podcasts and in the digital video that we develop and in the live shows. Adam Sachs:Everything, it can't rely as much as you have a huge competitive advantage when you have Conan being the center of a podcast. Because not only is he so famous, but he's so talented, but there's only so much scale you can get out of that. There's only so much you can squeeze out before he just like collapses or revolts. Chris Erwin:If he's listening to this, just like, "Adam's going to like squeeze more energy and time." Adam Sachs:He and I talk about it a lot. He talks about it a lot. He knows that we push him really far and it has an incredible amount of endurance more than most people. He does more than most people at that level, but there's only so far he can go. And so in order to be successful, we have to do more with other people. That's a big theme for us. Chris Erwin:Well, it's interesting to hear about the endurance. Because I think I was listening to a podcast with him and Jimmy Kimmel, where he was just talking about how hard they work. They're taping a show every day, their talk show. And then just all the other content that they're creating a short form format for socials, for marketing, for their podcast. It's just a lot of work. Chris Erwin:So it's not like nine to five, Monday through Friday. It's like they're on all weekend working and prepping and writing and all of that. Adam Sachs:Yeah. He works really hard. Chris Erwin:Along with a great team behind him that works really hard too. Okay. Last question on Team Coco before we get into the rapid fire round and then also maybe do some crowdsource questions from our high school friends, TBD. Does any other things about Team Coco that you're excited about in 2020? Adam Sachs:I think building upon the things we've already started is important for us, like doing more live events, building on our podcast network, doing specials. We're making comedy specials for HBO Max, and hopefully we'll be making more content for other platforms. All that is I think exciting. We also are doing a podcast exclusively on Stitcher premium podcast called The Best of Conan Standup. Adam Sachs:Where we're taking five standup sets from every year dating back to the first year that Conan was on TV each year and highlighting those. So you can listen to ... it's hosted by Laurie Kilmartin also here within our walls. She's a writer on Conan and a great standup herself. That show is every episode is a different season of stand ups from Conan. Think there's like opportunity for us in gaming potentially. I don't know. We're trying to expand. Chris Erwin:Awesome. I think you guys have an incredible path forward. We are massive supporters of your business as you know. Adam Sachs:You guys are really helpful. Chris Erwin:To close out the Team Coco narrative. I think one of the things that Adam brought up in the first part of the conversation was just what attracted him to Conan was his sensibility that he's some amazing talented comedy writer who's silly and funny and smart. But it also like Conan is a good person. He's got good values and he's built out a team that he really looks out for, that he really respects. Chris Erwin:And he's really set the tone at the organization. And I can say, I was fortunate enough to get invited to the Team Coco and Conan holiday party at Yamashiro in Hollywood. And it's funny as I spoke to Adam and then as I spoke to some of his peers, like Willy Nevara, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right. Steve Breslow and some of your other business affairs executives, they all said, "Conan sets us really special tone from the top." Adam Sachs:He does. Chris Erwin:I was there with a friend of mine, Maya, and we felt that in the room, it just like we've gone to a lot of Hollywood parties and I don't get excited by most of them, but this one was like, it felt different. Everyone was so open and it was a really good vibe. And I think that really leads to a really compelling and special creative environment working environment. Chris Erwin:And what I also heard from talking to one of the final executives there was that Adam is also a big part of setting that tone with the leadership. She made it very clear that that tone comes down from Conan, but it is also very much embodied in Adam and how he runs the Team Coco organization. Adam Sachs:That's nice. It's Conan and Jeff Ross, for sure. They really take care of their people. Chris Erwin:All right. Before we get into the rapid fire, I'm just going to check the text thread. Joe Venti asks, is this the rebirth of Ask Adam? Ask him to rewrite what dreams may come? Adam Sachs:The Ask Adam was my column in the Tower Tribune in the high school. Chris Erwin:Got it. Okay. I think that's the one that we'll take away from this. We need to go into the other ones. All right. So rapid fire, Adam, these are questions that you could answer very quickly in a few amount of words, one or two sentences or less. Here we go. Proudest moment slash accomplishment of your career. Adam Sachs:Conan's Podcast. I'm really proud of it's reached so many people, it's brought joy to a lot of people. It's brought a lot of joy to Conan who says that he feels really fulfilled by it and it's become, I think, an important part of his, I don't want to speak for him, but I think he said stuff like this. When he looks back on what he's accomplished in his career, I know that this will be one of the more important, special things that he's done. Adam Sachs:And I think it's really good quality. I think it's a really great show and it's because of Conan and Sona and Matt and I'm proud of it. Chris Erwin:Awesome. What do you want to do less and more of in 2020? Adam Sachs:I am always pushing myself to think bigger and to do more bigger thinking and to do less in the weeds of micromanaging. I think I just have like a tendency to do that a little bit and it's not a great quality. And so, I think getting more balanced in that sense I think is something that's important. Chris Erwin:Entrepreneurial advice. What one to two personal characteristics primarily drive your success? Adam Sachs:I think getting shit done. I think a lot of entrepreneurs sit around saying that they want to do something or that they should do something. And I think that the ones who see success are determined to just get something done and also stick around. I think it takes a long time for a company to find success. And it's not always fun, but I think hanging in there is important. Chris Erwin:And a quick side anecdote, we talked about this yesterday, but also you are not petty. You're not political. And even you were telling a story about your wife, who's like, "Adam, I hear that you're taking a meeting with this man or woman. Don't you remember a few months ago that you had like a really bad encounter?" You're like, "I don't remember that." Adam Sachs:I think I have a bad memory. I think maybe it benefits me sometimes, but I'm not good at holding grudges because I literally forget if somebody wronged me. And Molly who was my biggest defender is always does like stick up for me and look out for me. And she's like, "What are you doing? We hate that person. Remember?" And I'm like, "Oh yeah. Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot. We hate that person." Chris Erwin:Last three, advice for media professionals going into 2020. Quick words of wisdom. Adam Sachs:Follow the money is one of them. I think a lot of media companies in the digital space have come and gone because deficit financing, digital video in a way that isn't really sustainable anymore today. I think there's a lot of paywalls popping up, which I think is like in some ways a good thing, but in some ways a bad thing. Really understand what you're asking people to pay for, because I think media consumers are willing to pay, but only for certain things. If you're going to build a company in media, try to latch on to the best talent or the best content. Chris Erwin:Smart advice. All right. Last couple. Any future startup ambitions? See yourself starting another company in the near future? Adam Sachs:Probably not. I don't know. Maybe. A lot of it comes back to convicti

Nicole Staple is the co-founder and CEO of Brideside. Nicole and her team reinvented the bridal shopping experience, and have raised more venture capital than any other female-led business out of Chicago. We discuss investor bias towards women, managing through rapid growth during her husband's cancer battle, and what rap lyrics have to do with ending meetings. Full episode transcript is below.Subscribe to our newsletter. We explore the intersection of media, technology, and commerce: sign-up linkLearn more about our market research and executive advisory: RockWater websiteFollow The Come Up on Twitter: @TCUpodEmail us: tcupod@wearerockwater.com--EPISODE TRANSCRIPTChris Erwin:Hi. I'm Chris Erwin. Welcome to The Come Up, a podcast that interviews entrepreneurs and leaders. Nicole Staple:I don't think they knew Sonali was pregnant and we never mention it. She was eight months pregnant. She was big. He came, he left and they told us they were passing because we were located in Chicago. You have to ask yourself is that really why they passed on the deal? Chris Erwin:This week's episode features my dear friend, Nicole Staple, the co-founder and CEO of Brideside. Brideside reinvented the bridal shopping experience, creating what they describe as an all-channel concierge service. And they've raised more venture capital than any other female-led business out of Chicago. That's super impressive. Yet Nicole, who I've known for nearly a decade, remains humble and is still very cautiously optimistic about her business. And just like when I knew her in business school, Nicole continues to work tirelessly to build Brideside. Chris Erwin:In our interview, you'll hear how Nicole always finds a way to overcome pretty big challenges like how she had to deal with investor bias towards women when first raising funding or leading Brideside through rapid growth during her husband's cancer battle. Despite all this, Nicole also knows how to add some fun into the mix like how her and her co-founder end meetings with rap lyrics. So I'm thrilled to bring you Nicole's story. It's such a good one. You'll hear wild stories and all along the way Nichole just exhibits such incredible courage and resolve. I have learned so much from her and she's a major inspiration for me. So this interview was an absolute delight. All right let's get into it. Chris Erwin:Quick heads up that my interview with Nicole was recorded back in February and prior to COVID. Yet her points about direct-to-consumer in 2020 are quite prescient, and Nicole's come-up story definitely stands the test of time. So Nicole, why don't we start out where'd you grow up, by the way. Remind me. Nicole Staple:That's a good question. Chris Erwin:I know you've told me, but I forget. Nicole Staple:A lot of different places. I was born in London. So my dad is British. My mom had moved to London and my dad followed her to get her PhD in economics from the London School of Economics. I was born there and my parents were also married there. Then my family moved to North Carolina to a small farm town outside of Durham and I lived there for the first 12 years of my life and then we moved to Princeton, New Jersey, which you know- Chris Erwin:Garden State. Nicole Staple:... because you're also from New Jersey. Chris Erwin:Much pride. Nicole Staple:And I went to middle school and high school in New Jersey and then my parents moved back to North Carolina. So now I'm sort of from nowhere. No one really lives in North Carolina anymore. My parents split. My family lives sort of all over. So I call Jackson Hole home now where my parents have a ski house and a place that I love. Chris Erwin:You have a pretty awesome geographical footprint in my opinion between Jackson Hole and Victor, Idaho and then Palm Springs where we went hiking a couple months ago. And then you also have an HQ in Chicago, and now you're based in New York City. You're all over and then I think you also- Nicole Staple:I'm a nomad. Chris Erwin:... spend time in North Carolina as well. So that's awesome. Nicole Staple:It's always feels a little freeing to be from nowhere, but it also can feel a little detached. I seriously don't know really where I would even call home now. So it's always been interesting to me. Chris Erwin:So I'm curious. Right now you are the co-founder and CEO of Brideside and we're going to help tell your story of how you got to where you are today. I'm curious, growing up, being born in London and then growing up in jersey and then you went to Lawrenceville and then to Wellesley College. What was your focus when you were at Wellesley. Why did you choose that school and what you focused on there? Nicole Staple:Wellesley was not a popular choice. It's an all-women's college outside of Boston. And no one in my class wanted to go there because it was all women. However, I had a lot of friends and school whose mothers had gone to Wellesley because it was maybe a bit more popular for that generation and I was particularly inspired by that actually and my mom and my grandmother are like amazing women and I really looked up to them and I thought like this was an opportunity to actually do something a little bit different. I actually think wanting to be different is something that's been a theme for me. Chris Erwin:Wanting to be different? Nicole Staple:Yes. Chris Erwin:Okay. Nicole Staple:I have this like fear of just living an ordinary life and blending in with everyone else and so I felt that it would be a unique experience, but I wasn't so sure I wanted to do it. Then I played lacrosse in college and so I was looking at schools where I could play sports and I knew I wanted to play division three. I got into some better lacrosse schools and then my dad told me he wouldn't pay for anywhere else that had a lower caliber of academics in Wellesley, and so the decision was sort of made. Chris Erwin:You said you have a fear of living an ordinary life. Where does that come from? Nicole Staple:So I think it's part of my DNA. I think it's like wanting things to feel exciting is very much a part of I think things I can't control and that's something I've learned over the years. But I grew up and my mom worked in public health internationally a lot and I had the great privilege of traveling with her to a lot of really interesting places. And my dad is a total adventure junkie and took us very rugged sort of backpacking and ski experiences growing up and I just think that really stuck with me. I actually believe it builds a lot of confidence to do that sort of stuff when you're younger and I think I've always sort of wanted to hold on to that because I think it was part of what like gave me confidence that I could do some of those things that other kids my age hadn't done or couldn't do. Chris Erwin:It's definitely a unique upbringing that you had between the adventures with your father and your mother in public health. So as you probably compared and contrasted your stories relative to peers of school, by just feeling of like, "Oh, mine's a bit different. Let's go with this. We got some momentum, and this feels right." Okay. So then you go to Wellesley where I think as you describe there's a lot of powerful women who had entrepreneurial ambitions or creating unique careers for themselves that, that really excited you and felt like that was part of this path and this vision that you had for your life. So while you're there, were there any entrepreneurial itches that you were scratching or was it, "Hey, I'm focused on a life on Wall Street," which we'll get into a little bit. What were you thinking there? Nicole Staple:No. I didn't really know. I was an economics major. I think part of that was again like what my parents did, but I think part of it was that, that made the world make sense to me I felt like when I was in my Econ 101 class, there was like an aha moment like, "Oh, okay. Got it. This is how the world worked and that just became my orientation." But certainly, there were things that were entrepreneurial in ways, but mostly like social justice oriented. Nicole Staple:Even when I was younger, I was really focused on the environment and conservation. So I would start little stupid organizations like sell baked goods at the farmers market to raise money for some conservation organization. Just little things. Chris Erwin:Yeah. Do what you can. Start local. Nicole Staple:Right, exactly. I was involved in some global health stuff in college in the same vein and worked with women in developing countries who were trying to get out of poverty. So that was sort of like where I was mostly focused and then investment banking became my path because that seemed to be what most econ majors did and it felt like a way to get training out of school and to make money, stand on my own two feet which both of those things, as you know, because you had a similar path, you can do when you do investment banking. But there was a very pivotal moment for me during my investment banking interviews where I met a very prolific entrepreneur and that very much changed my perspective of what I might want to do in the future. Chris Erwin:Oh, wow. Who was this prolific entrepreneur that you met? Nicole Staple:His name is Jeff Pulver he was the founder of Vonage. So he was the original inventor of voice over IP who ultimately became Skype. Chris Erwin:It's a pretty big industry. Nicole Staple:And as you know much more than that. So my girlfriend, actually a girl I didn't even know, but ultimately became a girlfriend at Wellesley and I were sitting next to each other on the Delta shuttle flight from Boston to New York for our investment banking interviews, and this guy sat next to us and asked us literally, "If you could do anything with your life, what would you do?" And we thought he was a little bit creepy. But we decided to entertain it. Chris Erwin:A little bit creepy. Nicole Staple:Then we ended up chatting with him and it was Jeff Pulver. As a result, both me and the woman sitting next to me actually talked about wanting to start companies one day and didn't really want to do investment banking, but we felt like we had to. We had a long conversation with him on the flight and ultimately we befriended each other and he ended up being in our lives actually for a good amount of time. Her and I ended up becoming pretty good friends and started working on some ideas at Wellesley together and that seed was sort of planted and ultimately led to me exploring that path later on. Chris Erwin:That is very interesting. I did not know that story at all. What did Jeff say on the plane that was like a catalyst or got you excited about entrepreneurship? And then my second question is clearly there was something inside you already and he was this spark that seemed to make it come to life. But what did he share that kind of got you thinking differently? Nicole Staple:I think it was more the questions he asked because when you're that age... And I don't know. I think it's different now. Starting companies is more of a thing. This was 2004, 2005. So it felt like something that was very isolated to Silicon Valley and I didn't even really know what Silicon Valley was. My dad was an entrepreneur and had started a few companies, but on the East Coast and it was a very different sort of situation. Chris Erwin:Not like today where there's HBO shows like literally called Silicon Valley. Nicole Staple:Exactly. Chris Erwin:And it's part of the media zeitgeist of everything. Nicole Staple:Yeah, I was totally clueless. So I think it was more really asking young people. Most young people I don't necessarily think get asked like what would you want to do if money were of no consequence, right? Chris Erwin:Yeah. Nicole Staple:You're really just thinking about how you get on your feet when you're that age. And so it was actually interesting to explore that. H was just very encouraging. He was very encouraging and positive about anything and ultimately this became like a longer-term relationship, but things that we would tell him he was just very enthusiastic about. I think when you are trying to put yourself out there just someone being encouraging of you can go a long way. Chris Erwin:I mean, this is me asserting some ideas, but maybe in your youth, when you're 2003, 2004 haven't even graduated college yet and someone is asking you questions and essentially they're thinking big. It seems like that was the impression that you got that Jeff was asking you some big questions, which is the assumption you're capable of a lot of things. And hearing that as a youth and then also as a woman probably at that time was maybe surprising. You weren't used to being thought of like that, particularly around your biggest ideas that maybe stray off the path. Nicole Staple:I mean, absolutely. And coming from Wellesley, our motto around campus is women who will. There were literally flags all across campus with the phrase women who will, women who will achieve, women who will change the world, women who will give back all over. We were very focused there on finding a path for ourselves and I think a lot of that looked like Hillary Clinton at the time, which was wearing a power suit and being in politics or finance. Chris Erwin:That was like kind of like the one image or female power definition that you had. Nicole Staple:Yes. Chris Erwin:Now, that's clearly changing a lot of ways and I think that you are helping to define what new vision is going forward. Nicole Staple:Yes. I've told myself if I am wearing a power suit in the future as I'm sitting here in like knee-high socks and a dress that I have done something wrong. So I think it looks different now. Chris Erwin:Yeah, I agree. Okay. So you're inspired from this conversation with Jeff. You want to understand how the world works, so that's why you like economics. Economically to investment banking and you commit to that path. So I think you did an internship at Goldman Sachs over summer and then afterwards you went to UBS. Was UBS the experience that you had hoped for. Was it what you expected? Nicole Staple:It was nothing like I expected. It was a wild ride. I ended up moving from equity research at Goldman to wanting to do investment banking and healthcare. UBS was a hot healthcare group at the time run by this sort of notorious banker who led a very interesting and intense culture. Chris Erwin:A lot is caught up in that definition. Interesting. Nicole Staple:Would not have flown in the era of MeToo. But at the end of the day when you have a coach that is incredibly difficult and works you into the ground, you tend to bond with the players around you and I think my experience in banking was like that. I think I learned a lot of really important skills that have helped me start a company. I made more money those two years than I have any years since. So it's only been downhill from there on the financial front. Chris Erwin:You're building lots of equity value right now, right? Nicole Staple:And I made really, really good friends. It turns out when you're trying to balance a balance sheet at four in the morning, you and your other like 22-year-old friends have a lot to talk about. Chris Erwin:Through trauma there is incredible camaraderie and companionship. It is true on the battlefield. I know that through my twin brother in the military. Nicole Staple:And I would never compare investment banking and financial modeling, just to be clear, to a battlefield. Chris Erwin:I hear you. I mean I was a banker when my brother was in combat abroad in Afghanistan and Iraq. Surprisingly there are some very interesting studies that were done that the highest stress level that a human can have is when you feel that you don't have control over your schedule and that there's incredible uncertainty. And in banking, there's incredible uncertainty because it's 9:00 pm. You think you're done for the night and then a managing director drops like a whole pitch you have to prepare by the next day on your desk. And that that level of stress... This is crazy. It's just what the article says is that that can be higher than those that are in combat and conflict. Chris Erwin:Okay. So you're at UBS. You meet this incredible group of people, this incredible network, which you've actually brought up with me in the past. You do that for I think a year or two and then you transition to SVB. What was SVB? Nicole Staple:So I did that for two years and then I became really interested actually through working healthcare, in earlier stage healthcare technologies and biotech, and I was deciding between going to work for a biotech company or going to Palo Alto to actually think about learning more about venture capital and made a last-minute decision to do that with Silicon Valley Bank that is deeply ingrained in the startup ecosystem as many of your listeners might know. So I went to work for SVB Capital which is the direct investment fund, essentially the venture capital fund of SVB, small team and that was my first introduction to startups. Chris Erwin:So your first introduction to startups, learning about startups and working with early stage founders, what was your initial reaction to that? Nicole Staple:My first reaction was there's a lot of people asking for money. I should have known better, but a lot of companies, a lot of ideas, a lot of brilliant people, things I could not understand, I could not for the life of me figure out what the cloud meant. Chris Erwin:So there's lots of "cloud conversations". Nicole Staple:And this was again, I'm dating myself, new terminology in that day. But I mean really, really inspiring and what I think was interesting is that you were taken seriously whether you were 22 or 52. I think it was really interesting for me, and this is a little bit nuanced but to learn about the life cycle of a company and how things can rise and how things can fall. By doing a lot of cap table analysis, I could actually start to understand like what it meant to own a company, who owned that company, how it all worked and how that evolved as the company grew. Chris Erwin:Yeah, that's actually really interesting because probably growing up watching the news media then going to Wellesley and then at UBS, you saw, "Hey, a lot of the founders of companies are our banking clients. They're older, right? They've gone through their careers. Now, they're more established. All of a sudden, you're at SVB. You have people that are maybe right out of college or haven't even gone to college pitching with these really big ideas. And then being empowered to do so, sometimes the bank would write checks. Chris Erwin:That's got to feel really exciting to you where, one, you're probably rooting for some of these people that are pitching, have these ideas but also thinking about, "Well, if they can do it, then I could also do that, right?" Nicole Staple:Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I felt that for sure. Everyone was smarter than I was, so maybe a little bit more inferiority complex than anything but I think that's something we all battle. That's actually been like I think you hear this a lot, but that's certainly been a big theme as well throughout all of this. I think being in awe of the just raw brain power out in the valley was it was pretty amazing and I could also start to explore like if this world is interesting to me and I do think I want to make an impact somewhere, what's something that I might orient myself towards that I could feel passionate about and understand and be good at. Chris Erwin:Interesting. So you do SVB for a couple years and then after that, you have a transition to business school, the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern and Chicago. I think you did a couple pre-MBA internships in Chicago, but what sparked that transition? What caused you to leave SVB? Nicole Staple:I was really interested in potentially starting my own company. And again, much more socially oriented actually, I was really intrigued by social entrepreneurship again. I've had a sort of a theme around being interested in how women move up in sort of society economically. I was interested in that and I was thinking of doing a few different internships prior to business school but ultimately chose year up, which is an amazing national nonprofit that prepares really talented youth for college or really fortune 500 companies through this amazing training program. I thought that I would go to business school to start a social enterprise. Chris Erwin:So you thought you would go to business school to start a social enterprise. You'd do this pre-MBA internship at Europe and that further validated your interest in the space like yes, this is definitely what I want to do? Nicole Staple:Yes. Although, the one thing I noticed in the nonprofit world because this was a non-profit, but they have an interesting business model where Fortune 500 companies actually essentially fund the model they're not constantly fundraising for grants. But I think most non-profits, you're still particularly as the executive director or the CEO, a lot of your job is asking for money. So there was something that I was noticing there around personal wealth as well, and that was also starting to form in my mind what is the optionality I can build into myself if I think about something that could have financial upside in the near term whether it's starting my own thing or going to a startup or going to another type of job where I could continue to build maybe my own financial footholds, could that lead to more flexibility later on for the type of like social justice work I might want to do? Chris Erwin:Interesting. So it's hey, there's a chance you're looking at these early stage companies, founders with these big ideas, raise capital, work really hard, potentially have a liquidity event and exit. And then they are freed up both in time and money to give back and pursue altruistic initiatives. So that seemed like an interesting path for you to take. Nicole Staple:You're saying it probably much more eloquently than I would have thought at the time, but I think that's probably along the lines of where my head was at the time. Chris Erwin:Okay, interesting. Again, there's clearly a few different ways to do that. It's like you could go into investment banking or consulting, grind that out for 10, 20 years, and also give back. But you were leaning towards the entrepreneurial side. So you go to Kellogg. So that is your focus while you're at school? Are you on that path? Nicole Staple:Yeah. I was. I did a lot of work in social investing, social enterprise work and it was a tough industry at the time. It was hard to understand how to build either a fund or companies that were sustainable, double bottom line, sort of initiative. It was complicated. It was more complicated than I thought. Chris Erwin:I've never heard of double bottom line actually. Nicole Staple:Social return and economic and financial return. Chris Erwin:Yeah, I like that. Nicole Staple:So how do you balance the two and make them optimized for both. It can be challenging. It was around that time that I met my co-founder. She was doing something completely different, but I was ultimately intrigued by what she was working on as well. Chris Erwin:Tell us about that moment. So it seems like that you are working on a few different things at school, double bottom line companies and ideas, but as we know now, Brideside is what took off, but what were the origin days? This was not the first idea that you were working on. Nicole Staple:No. Well, this company wasn't the first idea. Well, it wasn't my idea, to put that out there. I was just along for the ride, but it was not the first. My brother and I actually pitched some ideas at Kellogg. We won a little pitch competition around our media idea, around bringing local music into... It was sort of like a pitchfork but more location based where you would merge like content and shows that were happening and content that musicians were putting out by major cities. We had some different ideas there. I had- Chris Erwin:So this is your brother, Justin. You're pitching ideas at Kellogg. How much younger is your brother? He wasn't in school with us? Nicole Staple:He was in college. Chris Erwin:He was in college. Nicole Staple:He was at University of Chicago, so just down the south side. Chris Erwin:Oh, he was nearby. Nicole Staple:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chris Erwin:I did not realize that. Nicole Staple:Yep. So you were pitching ideas together and thinking that maybe that could be the thing doubling down on family. Chris Erwin:I just try to find people who are smarter than I am and attach myself to them and then pitch their ideas. It was a very smart strategy. It's worked very well for many people. Okay. So you were doing that with your brother and then was any of those ideas seemed like they were going to have legs? Nicole Staple:Yeah. I mean, he ended up being very successful in his own right, but Sonali, my co-founder and I were in the same business school section. So we met really day one of school and were friends first. She had been planning her wedding while applying to business school and had thought that the wedding industry was really, to not sound overly trite, ripe for disruption. I knew that she was working on this, but I didn't know much about it. We were in a class together and she said, "Do you want to join my business plan writing team?" I had a few friends on the team, so I thought, "Cool, this looks fun." Chris Erwin:Little did you know in that moment when she asked that question that it would literally transform the next nine years of your life. Nicole Staple:My entire life. Chris Erwin:And potentially many more. Nicole Staple:I think there's definitely a power in saying yes to a lot of things and just trying them out. I think I was unsure about whether the wedding industry was interesting to me at all, but I think I was open-minded enough to try to understand the opportunity in a really like detached sort of more like academic way. I immediately thought that it was an awesome opportunity and I could very quickly see where the growth scenario was. And I saw this really like terrible customer experience for women, shopping for bridesmaid dresses and bridal gowns. Nicole Staple:I was like, "Oh, yeah. David's Bridal seems like super outdated. Good point." And how these large groups of women were shopping and planning together. It was a huge social thing. I hadn't really been through it much myself, but ultimately would have become a bridesmaid like several times after starting to work on this idea, and I could just see like this is something that feels given where consumer tech is going, given how we're using the internet, how we're looking for inspiration, this just feels like an industry that has not caught up yet. So as we started working on the idea together, I became more and more excited about it. Chris Erwin:Wow. Did you feel that you and Sonali really clicked from the beginning? Was there like a special vibe between you? Nicole Staple:I did and I never would have started the company if it weren't for that. While we were both MBAs and I think that can sometimes be looked down upon. I felt that we were very different in so many ways, which was a good thing. She was incredibly creative and smart. She had a really interesting orientation towards systems and science. Again, finding people smarter than you are. I was sort of like more of a strategic thinker. I liked big ideas. I could put stories together. I understood again the life cycle of a startup. Nicole Staple:I felt that I could really add some direction and structure to some of the ideas that she was talking about with our original co-founder, Emily who's no longer with the company. So I felt we worked really well together. She also was like a self-proclaimed fashion junkie, I was not. I liked more the business side of things and she had a great passion for how to build relationships with designers. She had a great eye for the product. So I just felt that we really vibed. Chris Erwin:This might have been a bit premature, but did that complementary relationship also gets you excited where it's like, "Hey, this is a really good idea. And if this were to go somewhere, just sort of become a thing, this could be someone that I could actually work with. Not only just like I like her, but no, we actually work well together. We enhance one another." Was that flashing through your mind? Nicole Staple:For sure. And those early days, it's like dating for the first time, meeting someone you really like when you're in those like early days. Chris Erwin:Nicole just did a little like shoulder shimming that was part of that. I wish you guys could see it. Nicole Staple:Yeah. It's like all romantic and fun like pillow talk until three in the morning. You just you know the ideas are flowing. You're starting to realize, "Oh my god, there is definitely some chemistry here. Some founder chemistry." And those days are really exciting because the whole world is literally at your fingertips when you feel that way. Chris Erwin:Yeah. It's a really, really exciting moment. I mean, this is like ridiculous about MBAs, when you start talking through a new idea with someone, you're like, "Could this be the rest of my life? Is this my billion dollar exit?" We probably ask ourselves that question too often while in school. But it is a really exciting moment. That's the fun of it. Nicole Staple:Yeah. Our spring break, second year, we hiked Patagonia with some friends and we spent hours on the trail like beautiful landscape. So special to be able to do that and do that together and just talked about what the rest of our lives would sort of look like. Could we do this? Could we take the leap? I often think business-minded people and ambitious people over index for risk. I think a lot of MBAs do that. They think things are more risky than they actually are and that can create a lot of fear or inhibit you from exploring new opportunities like this. Nicole Staple:I was like really glad that she had decided to do this sort of irregardless of whether I was on board or not and I think that provided a lot of inspiration for me and comfort knowing that she was in, and we could be buddies in that and I could just take the leap. At the end of the day, we'd be in it together. If it failed, I'm sure we were employable. It was not going to be that big a risk. Chris Erwin:All right. So let's fast forward a little bit. So you guys commit. You want to do Brideside. This is what you're going to do after you graduate from Kellogg. Okay. So school is over. What does the team look like and what are you working on? Do you have financing? Nicole Staple:The team was our friend, Emily, Sonali and myself. We quickly got sort of a technology UX/UI co-founder. That summer after we graduated, we started the Monday after graduation working full-time at 1871, which now is a massive incubator and co-working space in Chicago. We are one of their first tenants and we just used the Kellogg room and started working on... Chris Erwin:There's a designated Kellogg room. Nicole Staple:There is a Kellogg room and there were only like us... Basically, it was just us using it at the time. This is again, startups weren't as sexy as they are now and we did a photo shoot. We were designing a homepage. I remember that we were coming up with the name. All really important things and we were applying to incubators. That's my memory. I was sleeping on Sonali's couch, me, her husband, all in her apartment for that summer and applying to an incubator became like the primary milestone because that's how we felt we could properly organize, incorporate launch, potentially get some early stage funding. Chris Erwin:Okay. Did you eventually join an incubator? Nicole Staple:We did. It was called Dream Adventures out of Philadelphia. One of the founders of David's Bridal was involved in the incubator and that was why we chose that one and he became our mentor during those three and a half months. Chris Erwin:Interesting. Okay. So you get into Dream Adventures. Helpful experience? Nicole Staple:It was really helpful. I think we realized the value more and more once we left. It created a discipline that I think can be hard to create yourself if you're a first-time founder, which is being held accountable to KPIs every single week even when you don't really have a business. It caused us to do things very, very quickly. It removed us from our friends and family. We were in the same apartments and pens campus. And I think it allowed us to focus- Chris Erwin:So you were down in Philadelphia. Nicole Staple:We were down in Philadelphia. It allowed us to focus. Chris Erwin:Okay. Nicole Staple:And we ultimately raised some capital after it, which was obviously pivotal to being able to launch the business. Chris Erwin:So was there a demo day at the end? Nicole Staple:There was. Chris Erwin:And you raised some money from that demo day? Nicole Staple:We raised around 250,000 I think out of the gates and I believe that year, we raised another 250. So maybe 500 came out of that initial demo day. Chris Erwin:Wow. So this is exciting. You meet Sonali in your MBA program. You have the idea. You commit to it after graduation. You're working on it. You get into the incubator like check, then you raise some seed capital check. So you guys must be feeling like, "All right. Here we go. We're on this path. Things are looking up." Is that what you were feeling at the time? Nicole Staple:I feel like we felt desperate all the time. A lot of things were happening though. Sonali found out she was pregnant the day our incubator started. The day we launched our first pop-up shop which was like our coming out party of the whole thing was the day she had her baby. Chris Erwin:Wow. Okay. Nicole Staple:So April 5th, 2013 was the day we essentially early sort of beta launched Brideside the day she had the baby. So nothing in our history has ever been smooth. In fact, our first investment that was actually going to truly allow us to pay ourselves like a little bit of money which we ultimately weren't able to do for a while was through a large angel group in Philadelphia and we thought we had the investment. One of the managing partners from the group was doing a final meet and greet in Chicago, flew in to meet us. I don't think they knew Sonali was pregnant and we never mention it. She was eight months pregnant. She was big. He came, he left and they told us they were passing because we were located in Chicago. You have to ask yourself is that really why they passed on the deal? It was very tough for both of us. Chris Erwin:Yeah. You thought that you had that investment like in the bag. It was all sorted. And then that just changes. That's interesting. So I mean, one, looking from outside, people think like wow, this is a team that's really checking the boxes. They're growing. They've raised money. Through the incubator, they're learning. They have a beta test. But on the inside, you guys felt like, "Oh, we're just like every day, we're struggling through this." Just barely getting through these milestones. It's exciting but there's just so much more to do. No guarantees of success. Nicole Staple:Yeah. When you're feeling broke, you have tons of student loans. You are trying to get something off the ground and nothing feels like it's working. I think it became very obvious at that moment that we were also women in this industry. Chris Erwin:Explain that. Nicole Staple:Well, Sonali being pregnant I think was the reason that we lost that investment. I think that was very obvious to us at the time. So the reality of how we were perceived by this investment community and by the startup community actually became like very real at that point and I think you know Sonali got a lot of questions, "How can you be a mom and a startup founder?" I think there was a lot of bias at the time there and that was just becoming very clear to us that that was a factor. Chris Erwin:You're being punished for who you are and your identity which is probably an accelerant to your business because you intimately understand the bridesmaid's journey and that investors are punishing you for that. That's got to be so frustrating. Nicole Staple:Yeah. I think, look. I think there's just biases that are out there and I think you can feel sometimes like you're being held to a different standard, but ultimately that came and went and that was a reality. There was like a triple whammy as we scaled our business that year around fundraising. It was very tough for us. One was, I think being women founders but having a women focused consumer business. A lot of early stage investors are investing based on passion or just something that they personally care about, which is understandable. It's usually their personal money of their high net worth. When men generally control 90 to 95% of that capital, they just don't orient towards a woman's consumer product. They don't understand. So that was one. Chris Erwin:I can't relate to it. Nicole Staple:I think the biases of being a new mom, having a co-founder, that new mom or being young women founders, there's probably unconscious bias there being in the Midwest, less than 5% of capital at the time was going towards Midwest companies. Being in weddings and being in consumer generally less than 5% of VC goes to consumer goods businesses. So I think there was just a lot working against us that I didn't even realize at the time. So you put a lot of pressure on yourself. I spent a lot of years just thinking that everything that didn't go our way was like directly my fault and I think now I have a little bit more perspective for just how hard it is for everyone. Chris Erwin:Yeah. But as you start to reflect on that, did that make you think like, "Hey, the odds are against us. This might just not be possible." Nicole Staple:There have been many moments in the business where we were unsure whether we would be able to move forward and some of that uncertainty was... A lot of times, it was capital related. Sometimes there were moments operationally where we were like is this growing as fast as it should? Is this working? Is it not working? But there was one of those moments that I think was fundraising related where Sonali and I were at a restaurant down the street from our co-working space and we were having the conversation, "Do we keep going?" Chris Erwin:Oh, wow. Nicole Staple:I was started getting really emotional and crying at the table. Chris Erwin:What year was this? Nicole Staple:This conversation was probably 2015 at that point. And we were eating Shishito peppers as an appetizer. Chris Erwin:Okay. Good memory. Nicole Staple:And the waitress came over and said, "Is everything okay over here?" Because I was visibly upset and I told her I got one of the really spicy ones. I just remember that so well because it was really funny in the moment and I sort of pulled it together. One thing Sonali and I have always been really proud of is that in those moments, we've always stayed true to some of the key metrics in our business that allowed us to make the decision. So while it definitely is our baby and our passion project on some level, I think we've always had a very practical approach to the business. Nicole Staple:That's important because you're managing investors money and you're also managing people who are relying on you for a job. I think it's very important to be clear headed in these decisions on whether how fast you scale up or down or whether you go on or not and we always had some very key metrics around how likely a customer was to buy from us if she had heard about us and signed up for the site and how much she was spending with us. That became sort of our tried and true barometer and we ultimately were always very strong on that and also actually Net Promoter Score customer satisfaction like how much people liked our product. We were, say, very, very close to those numbers from literally day one in the business and that allowed us to navigate those decisions. And if we felt that those numbers were exceptionally good, we would keep going. Chris Erwin:When did you feel that after that conversation, there was an inflection point where like, "Okay, we really have something here and you're like the investor interest is, it's really starting to gel and manifest. Real money is flowing our way." What was that next moment? Nicole Staple:I think when we moved to a real office that became a moment for us. We moved to this really cool refurbished warehouse in the west loop where we still have our headquarters. At the time, it was 4,200 square feet. And I say at the time, because we've now taken over like the whole building. And 4,200 square feet seemed like massive to us and we decided... We had experimented in our co-working space with showrooming having women come in and try on dresses in person and it was astonishing to us that groups of women would buzz up to an office and try on dresses in a 200 square foot space literally running around in their bras and underwears in the hallway to try on dresses with us when we were literally less than 10 minutes away from some of the nicest bridal salons in the city. Chris Erwin:Wow, yeah. Nicole Staple:So we decided something there was working. So we got this new office and we decided the front part was going to be this cool lofty showroom experience and the back part was going to be our office, but it felt massive. So we said, "Okay, we'll lease it out to other companies. We'll try to recoup some of our rent expense." Within a few weeks, we felt like we were already busting out of the seams on that space." Chris Erwin:Oh, wow. Exciting. Nicole Staple:So that really felt like exciting. I was so proud to show people our real office and the showroom experience, we outfitted it for like $3,000 and within a year, it was like doing over a million bucks with people coming to try on dresses there. Chris Erwin:What year is this? Nicole Staple:This was in 2016. Chris Erwin:Okay, wow. Nicole Staple:And so we felt that we were really tapping into something with the showrooming experience. That was also giving us more insight into the customer experience more generally, which was helping inform our technology experience and our digital styling as well, which has become a huge differentiator for Brideside. We never took our eye off the prize on delivering an exceptional customer experience and we continued to invest in that, and that's very much what we're known for today. So we felt that we were really carving out something different. And then the next summer I think in 2017, we had one of our largest wholesale partners, brands, designers, went bankrupt essentially overnight. Chris Erwin:Wow. Nicole Staple:That was a huge moment for us because a lot of things happened then. We could have totally lost our shirts as a business, but we made a lot of really good decisions at that moment that ultimately led to us creating a growth strategy that would involve us becoming more direct to consumer manufacturing our own product, expanding the showroom experience while continuing to expand the technology experience. And I think that gave us a really defensible business model for mass scale. Chris Erwin:So this is an interesting moment to pause on because I know from having known Nicole now from early days of business school, in her business journey that in the beginning challenging and raising capital. And there was other companies that had actually raised... Doing something similar to what you were doing direct to consumer in the wedding industry and in retail that raising multiples of what you had raised. I know that that was really challenging and frustrating for you. But something we always talked about was like Nicole, you guys are super sharp operators. You have good KPIs in place. You have something here. Stay lean and stay resilient, and you did. Then at this point. I think around 2017, 2018, there are some of these competitors that started to fall by the wayside, were no longer around. Tell us about that moment. Nicole Staple:When the competitive landscape started to really shift both big players and smaller players and venture back players were, as you sort of put it, falling to the wayside or going out of business or the businesses were being acquired, we definitely felt that there was an opportunity opening up for us and we wanted to very much go at it full force. I mentioned I think the opportunity was really this completely integrated model where we were manufacturing our own products, so higher margin structure. We were able to deliver product faster and a more competitive price point to our customers. We had more control over product design. Nicole Staple:We now knew how to do showrooms. We had done a partnership with Hudson's bay company and some Lord and Taylor stores to experiment with that. So we were sort of ready to scale that. We were still really well known for our service experience and just this like concierge stylist experience. We had seen what we believed were cracks in other business models out there, some of our competitors and we felt that, "Hey, we're still growing." We've been really lean from a capital perspective. We were always really disciplined about customer acquisition. We've always been profitable on customer acquisition and we felt that some of our competitors for whatever reason, probably a lot of venture capital pressure had maybe been forced to grow more quickly than the business could sustain. Nicole Staple:So we felt that it was really our time. We had to wait for the dust to settle a little bit because it was a very unfriendly environment for us to raise capital at that point because there had been so much negative press around the wed tech space, the wedding technology. Chris Erwin:Wed tech? Nicole Staple:Wed tech. That's what it was called at the time. So we waited it out a little bit and when we were ready to really scale actually our private label, we had actually already started to scale our private label. That's when we went out for a larger round. Chris Erwin:And when was this? Nicole Staple:That would have been the end of 2018. Chris Erwin:End of 2018? Nicole Staple:Yeah. So we had raised 6.2 million up until that point and we wanted to raise a 7 million series A. Chris Erwin:On top of that 6 million? Nicole Staple:Mm-hmm (affirmative). Chris Erwin:And did you feel at this point when your competitors are, as I said falling by the wayside, did this feel validating to you? Did it get you excited or was there another feeling that you had? Nicole Staple:I think on some level it was validating and that it's hard for everyone. I think there's a lot of FOMO or inferiority stuff going on in your head in this world particularly if you read like TechCrunch every day. You always feel like everyone's doing better than you are. But what I realized is that we were actually doing pretty well. We had generated quite a good amount of sales volume on a relatively small amount of capital. We had proven a lot out. We were acquiring customers profitably and we felt that we had a lot ahead of us. Nicole Staple:So in that sense I think it felt validating, but for me if anything, it's a constant reminder around being prudent operators and really responsible stewards of capital. I think you are always rooting for any other founder around you. I mean, you look up to them. You want to learn from people who are starting companies and scaling companies around you and you never want to see a company fail even if it is a competitor. I guess there's some pleasure in that, but at the end of the day you have to look at yourself in the mirror and say like, "Gosh, I better make sure that that's not me tomorrow." Chris Erwin:It's really interesting how you put that. I mean, essentially you're describing how you look at the world as positive some, because if this is all hard all around and if another entrepreneur is succeeding, then there's chance for me as well versus... I know being realistic and many of us will go on LinkedIn and we scroll through like look at them, they've raised all this money or they've gotten this new job promotion and it's hard not to be jealous. Chris Erwin:Now, we're talking about broader issues with comparison culture and social media. I think it's really thoughtful Nicole how you described it. This is hard for everybody and we all want to win. There is space for all of us to rise up together. Nicole Staple:Right, right. Absolutely. Chris Erwin:Just a little anecdote from this before we get on to the next area. With my consulting firm, I was actually advising one of the wed tech companies that was in Nicole's fear. I think I remember telling Nicole that I was going to... I was giving her a preview. I was going to take on this assignment. And I just know during this moment that you're probably thinking through a lot of things through the future of your business. How did it feel when I asked you about that? This might be an interesting reflection of the head space of an entrepreneur. Nicole Staple:Well, you asked me if it was okay and I said no. Chris Erwin:There's a little bit more nuances of the conversation. But okay, you didn't want me to take on the assignment. Nicole Staple:I didn't. Chris Erwin:And why was that? Nicole Staple:Well, everything felt personal. Chris Erwin:Because I'm very smart and I was just going to... Nicole Staple:Yeah. You were too smart and you were going to give them... Well, it was a few things. One, is that I think that as an entrepreneur I've tended to probably be, as I am being in this podcast right now, overly transparent and open. I think it's important to learn about the ups and downs of a startup and I confided in a lot of my business school friends mostly around the downs because the ups, you don't need help on the ups. Those are great. They happen all the time for us. Nicole Staple:I don't want to make it seem like it's all downs, but the downs are the really tough part in your job as a CEO or a founder is to constantly deal with the down. So I felt like I had been really transparent with you about those. So you going into another business knowing all my secrets, made me uncomfortable but then also like everything with the business at the time, it felt personal. I was saying I hold a personal grudge against every single friend or family member who got married or was in a wedding and didn't buy a Brideside dress. Chris Erwin:Yes, understood. To bring up this conversation not to debate whether proceeding was right or wrong or anything like that because my belief- Nicole Staple:It was fine ultimately. Chris Erwin:Yeah. My belief was it was a company with a bit of a different business model, but I think it was more like... What's interesting is just the emotional reaction that it was just, "Hey, I look to my peers for help and guidance." And this felt like just a personal saying, "Hey, maybe this person is not going to be more focused on helping another company." And I really need all the help and all the emotional support I can get. Nicole Staple:And sure. In retrospect, was that emotional reaction the right one? Probably not. Chris Erwin:I think it worked out for us. We're having a podcast right now. Nicole agreed to be on it. So we are not mortal enemies. Nicole Staple:We're good friends. We're still good friends. Chris Erwin:We are still good friends. It worked out. So we're going to talk about a big defining moment that happened in Nicole's personal and professional career I think between 2018 and 2019. Professionally, I think you raise your largest round of financing to date, I think around, I'll call it 6 to $7 million. In addition to this, your husband was also diagnosed with a very severe form of cancer, kind of concurrently all around the same time. Tell us about this moment. Nicole Staple:In early 2018, my husband and I were coming back from a Hawaiian vacation where he hadn't been feeling well and it ultimately led to a diagnosis of cholangiocarcinoma which is very rare cancer of the bile ducts. So around that time, we were forced for his medical treatment to move to Rochester, Minnesota where he received a liver transplant summer of 2018. Chris Erwin:From his twin brother. Nicole Staple:From his twin brother, which was essentially 75 to 80% of people have essentially long-term survival. It can be curative. The cancer they remove, the cancerous organ and after that, we spent several months in Jacksonville, Wyoming for his recovery, in LA with you to be in warmer weather. And throughout that time is when a lot of this competitive shake-up was happening. We were also preparing to raise that growth equity round. It was incredibly tough, obviously. We thought though things were sort of on the up and up. Chris Erwin:For Eric. Nicole Staple:For Eric. So it more became a matter of balancing, working remotely and I was his primary caretaker. He took on an incredibly anti-vegan, anti-cancer diet. So cooking became a big part of my life and spending time together and taking care of him, and also running the business. Chris Erwin:Running the business as the CEO of this... How big was your team at this point? Nicole Staple:We were probably nearing 50 or 60 people at this point and during that time, we went through a potential M&A. We almost got acquired. We almost acquired two other companies at that time. So there was a lot going on, balancing a lot of different things. And then very unfortunately as their financing round was picking up in May 2019, Eric became ill again just under a year after his transplant and they found that there was micro metastasis in the bottom of his bile duct in this one area they didn't remove and it ultimately became terminal at that point. Nicole Staple:So he was airlifted. I'm leaving out a lot of details, but airlifted back to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota and as we were receiving that terminal diagnosis, I was literally finalizing disclosure agreements on a round. Chris Erwin:Geez. Nicole Staple:So it was taking phone calls from waiting rooms and hospital rooms sort of non-stop for several weeks. Chris Erwin:Okay. In this moment, this is like an unfathomable moment for pretty much 99.9% of the population. You have so much going on in your life. Did you feel that this was unsustainable? Did you feel that you were just going to crumble, but it was every day, just get through the next day or did you have this feeling at the moment of, "No, you got this. I'm an all-powerful CEO and wife, and I'm just going to power through"? What was going through your head? Nicole Staple:I think I felt a deep responsibility to the company. We needed the capital, we needed to close the round and it was really important for me to stay clear-headed and disciplined enough to make that happen. I also felt that a lot of the ways that we had handled my husband's illness was around really coming up with an action plan and an educated one as quickly as possible. That was sort of how we had handled the entire illness, and that became no different either. Nicole Staple:So I immediately pulled together a squad team. We came up with a plan to do as much research as possible around the new options that we had mobilized a lot of people on different parts of research and talking to new doctors because at this point the options became increasingly more limited and we had to think more out of the box more away from traditional medicine and he was also going through a lot medically at that time and he needed to be stabilized. Nicole Staple:So it was sort of just firing on all cylinders at that point to sort of get it done and obviously trying to be as optimistic about his outcomes as we could sort of like the time we could buy ourselves, whether it be options for us and clinical trials or things like that. Chris Erwin:You're taking essentially like a business approach of how you built Brideside to his cancer treatment. Nicole Staple:Yeah, absolutely. Chris Erwin:And just thinking like, "Hey, here's a problem. Let's come up with a solution. Let's do a research and figure out different ways going forward." In doing that, that it's a very smart approach, but was that also a way for you to just have comfort and how to deal with it which is we have a process, we get into it, power forward? Nicole Staple:Yeah, absolutely. And I think my husband was oriented towards that way too. I think it made having sort of hope, made a plan, made things feel better. So in that moment, that's what we were thinking, but I think the thing with cancer is you don't know where you are on the clock, ever. You don't know how far... At that point, he had no metastasis. We didn't know how long we had and we were still just adjusting to this reality. I mean, it was really unfathomable to us. We felt that he had done everything right and we had caught it early and that he was going to be fine. So we were really adjusting to this reality real time and so I think that was the reason we were just trying to get through it and he was just trying to get healthy. He was going through a lot medically. Nicole Staple:So this was May 2019. We closed around literally the exact same time he got diagnosed and then when we closed around, we had already lined up a lot of new hires. We were about to sign a bunch of leases for showrooms. So literally the day after the round closed, our head of people and culture came on, our CFO came on board. We signed several leases within that first several weeks. We started scaling up our sales team. A lot happened right then, and I think it was really over the next two or three months that it became sort of unimaginable to manage all of those things. Nicole Staple:But the one thing that I'm really proud of from that time is that I do think that I made the space to spend time with my husband. And I think overall, after his diagnosis while it sounds like I was managing a lot which I was and certainly probably worked too much, I do think that we... It was the first time I had truly prioritized something and someone else ahead of the business to be honest even though we had been married for almost five years at that point. Chris Erwin:Yeah. And I was at your beautiful wedding in Victor, Idaho. Nicole Staple:So I do think it was an important lesson around, I wasn't a mom. I think oftentimes people, or a dad, will find being a parent like forces you to do that, and we didn't have kids. So I think like this forced me to do that. Chris Erwin:Wow. So I mean, I just want to pause on this. You just have for the first time since you had graduated business school and working on Brideside, this was the first time that you would prioritized something else other than the business. Nicole Staple:Yes. Chris Erwin:That's a big statement. I mean, that's- Nicole Staple:It's really true. Chris Erwin:It's like eight years of your life. I mean, it clearly just shows your commitment to the Brideside and the team and the mission, the problem that you're solving in the industry. But I think it's also reflects on just entrepreneurs that can get lost in their business for better or for worse. So this is probably a unique moment where the business has needed you for many years and Eric, and the family also really needed you. Being as one of Eric's very close friends needed you as well. A good life lesson to think about too is balance going forward. Do you feel that that lesson is something you're applying going forward? Nicole Staple:Yeah, 100%. So your listeners know how this ended up. We were sort of like in May of that year, he passed away, August 12th of 2019. So I think now the reality is that I have a new life and that's a very important reality for me to sort of embrace and that it's never going to be like it was. Sonali, my co-founder who is also very good friends with Eric, we got together shortly after he passed away and we said Brideside has been this amazing journey that we've built. We were on our way to doubling the size of the team at this point. We're growing very fast and we said nothing that happened before is actually really relevant for what the future brings. Nothing is going to be the same in how we interacted as friends and as couple friends. Socially, the company is at an entirely new place and I think there's something incredibly liberating about that feeling. Chris Erwin:That is a powerful statement. I intimately witnessed you, Nicole during this period and you're an incredible pillar of strength for all of us around this. And just speaking to all of you investors and potential executive recruits for Nicole going forward, everything that I've seen her manage throughout every single aspect of her life is so impressive. So I would back this woman with anything, with any unlimited amounts of capital. That being said just, it's such an incredible story and appreciate you sharing that for everybody. Chris Erwin:So next up, this is the last segment before we get into our very exciting fire round, but Nicole, you're now in Brooklyn. You've moved to New York City. You're living here. You have a new flagship store on 20 East 20th. It's 2020, what's next up for Brideside? Nicole Staple:We just launched bridal gown. So as I mentioned before, we used to be just bridesmaid dresses, but now we are doing it all. So we have private label bridal gowns. We sell some top designers. We have these beautiful showrooms. We just launched a few new cities. So we launched a new big flagship in Chicago. We launched on Newbury Street in Boston. Chris Erwin:Wow. Nicole Staple:As you mentioned, we just launched bridal in New York and now we have a big store here. So we are really looking to take over the world at this point. That's pretty much what it comes down to. We have this tribe. We're now almost 130 teammates, predominantly women across all functions, all levels, operations technology. Chris Erwin:Predominantly women, is that like 60%? Nicole Staple:Like 96%. Chris Erwin:96% women. Okay, yeah. Global domination by women. Nicole Staple:Yep. We are a very diverse tribe in terms of some aspects of our makeup and others not so much, but we'll continue to build diversity into our culture. We are not only focused on the top-line growth story, but we are really focused on who we are as a company right now. I think that's something that is really, really hard to do when you're working on a lean budget and you're just trying to make it and continue to grow and prove yourself to the world, but we are super focused on who we are as a culture at how we create a company of belonging, how we're progressive and the types of policies that we're making for women and that has become a major focus for us as well. Chris Erwin:Got it. Wow. I'm just looking at Nicole's face light up during this conversation. So very exciting times ahead. What would you say is your favorite part of this job? Of all the many hats that you wear and everything that you do, what's your favorite part? Nicole Staple:It's a good question and like my co-founder said a long time ago, if it's not fun, it isn't worth it. It definitely always hasn't been fun, but I think now, I'm really working on embracing the fun and like the silly moments. In fact, Sonali and I now don't end a meeting without either singing a made-up rap lyric or recommending a song to one another. We're trying to bring in that playfulness into the day and that is really, I think what it's all about particularly around our people. So I have to say my favorite part is like getting to hang out with the amazing people that believe in us and believe in the mission and come to work every day. Chris Erwin:Wow. Can you share a recent rap lyric that you came up with Sonali? Nicole Staple:That is private founder business. Chris Erwin:There's an intimate relationship that's formed between Sonali and Nicole and I don't want to get in the way of that. Understood. Before I fully let you off on moving to some of the easier questions, let's talk about the direct-to-consumer industry as a whole, right? There's some challenges that are emerging in real time. Casper, one of the big name direct consumer brands has raised lots of capital, just went public. I think some people are looking at their IPO as... It's now trading at a discount to its IPO stock price. Chris Erwin:Recently, I think the CEO and founder of Outdoor Voices just stepped down. They're having some challenges with their user acquisition and their growth. I think a lot of people were talking about just growing saturation of user acquisition channels. It's becoming more expensive to run these businesses, and a few other factors. You hear about this in the industry in which you operate. How do you feel during all this? What's going through your mind? Nicole Staple:I mean, it's scary. I do think there's some softening. There's definitely some softening in the consumer markets across all industries for sure and we're seeing that in our industry too. For us, we are really dedicated to discipline an

Adam Sachs, a three-time James Beard Award-winning food, travel and lifestyle writer and editor, and former editor in chief of Saveur magazine, talks with Alan Fine of Insider Travel Report about Silversea Cruises, the new ship Silver Moon, the culinary adventure called S.A.L.T. for Sea and Land Taste, and the new S.A.L.T. podcast series on Spotify, Apple Music, Google Play. For more information, visit www.silversea.com. If interested, the original video of this podcast can be found on Youtube by searching for the podcast's title.  

DeviceTalks Weekly: Ep. 22 – This week’s episode of DeviceTalks Weekly is brought to you by the later V, as in Vizient and Vicarious Surgical. Bharat Sundaram, COO and president of Vizient, will share how the healthcare supplier is strengthening the supply of PPE for hospitals. He'll also reveal when the company expects to see US hospitals running at pre-Covid levels. Hint, it'll be a while. Adam Sachs, CEO of Vicarious Surgical, tells us how the company will put a new round of capital from high-powered investors to work in developing to develop a surgical system employing robotic and virtual reality technologies. How does the start-up expect to compete with the established leaders in the robotics space? Co-host Chris Newmarker, executive editor, life sciences, will walk us through the five biggest newsmakers on the MassDevice site. Number one may surprise you, but given the time, perhaps it shouldn’t.

Welcome to Servant of Pod. To kick things off, Nick tries to build a (very) brief picture of where the podcast world is right now with the help of Team Coco’s Adam Sachs and Earios co-founder Priyanka Mattoo. He also gets advice on how to be a decent podcast host from a great podcast host: Death Sex and Money’s Anna Sale.    

Comedian Tig Notaro feels glad about being Conan O’Brien’s friend. Tig and Conan sit down this week to discuss the hilarity of crashing and burning onstage, vacationing with rock stars, wearing a nightcap, playing Vegas, and drawing Civil War portraits. Later, executive producer Adam Sachs weighs in on the dos and don’ts of casual schmoozing with guests. Got a question for Conan? Call our voicemail: (323) 451-2821. For Conan videos, tour dates and more visit TeamCoco.com. This episode is sponsored by Hulu's Ramy, Mizzen+Main (www.comfortable.af code: CONAN), Hair Club (www.hairclub.com/CONAN), HelloFresh (www.hellofresh.com/conan80 code: CONAN80), Article (www.article.com/CONAN), State Farm (1-800-STATE-FARM), and MeUndies (www.meundies.com/CONAN).

The US talkshow host Conan O'Brien worked as a comedy writer for Saturday Night Live and on The Simpsons before getting his own show back in 1993. In November he started his podcast 'Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend' and we play some of his interview with the actor, jazz musician, and Renaissance Man, Jeff Goldblum. 'Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend' is produced by Sona Movsesian and Matt Gourley, and thanks to Matt and Adam Sachs for helping us to share it.

Adam Sachs, Executive Director of Biodiversity for a Livable Climate (bio4climate.org), an educational and research group dedicated to promoting land restoration using natural techniques, joins Earth911's Mitch Ratcliffe for an extended discussion. Adam shares projects that have restored land in Eastern Europe, Mexico, and elsewhere -- the transformation of previously desertified land into rich local ecosystems with plenty of water is stunning. Spend 50 minutes to learn how beavers, cattle, and human ingenuity can work together to turn drylands into productive grazing and wetlands.

Adam Sachs, Executive Director of Biodiversity for a Livable Climate (bio4climate.org), an educational and research group dedicated to promoting land restoration using natural techniques, joins Earth911's Mitch Ratcliffe for an extended discussion. Adam shares projects that have restored land in Eastern Europe, Mexico, and elsewhere -- the transformation of previously desertified land into rich local ecosystems with plenty of water is stunning. Spend 50 minutes to learn how beavers, cattle, and human ingenuity can work together to turn drylands into productive grazing and wetlands.

Adam Sachs of Travel and Leisure joins the show and Dara shares her favorite kohlrabi dishes. 

Saveur is in Charleston for their annual Blog Awards. We interview Editor-in-Chief of Saveur, Adam Sachs as well as award winners Michał Korkosz and Hellen Die. Theme song by The Bluestone Ramblers (thebluestoneramblers.com)

Adam Sachs is Editor in Chief of Saveur Magazine. We talk to Adam about what makes food and wine so meaningful to people all over the world.

Check out Sam Benrubi's fun roundtable with Saveur's Adam Sachs, Top Chef's Gail Simmons and celebrated chef Daniel Boulud. The group delves into Daniel's amazing influence on the chef world and share tales about working and cooking for him. Plus, there's dish on the Bocuse d'or, the latest season of Top Chef, and why Charleston's culinary scene deserves the magical moment it's having.

Food history explores the origins of edible items, and Saveur magazine has joined the pursuit of interesting and perhaps unusual food origins. Editor-in-chief Adam Sachs shares the topics of the magazine's latest issue, The Origins Issue, which reveals some of the mysteries of the food world.

  Welcome back to the Creative Studio where we conduct podcasting experiments. This is the fourth episode in our series on narrative podcasting. If you haven’t listened to the previous episodes, you can visit CreativeStudio.Academy or subscribe to the podcast to get those episodes. My name is Joshua Rivers and I am your host on this extraordinary journey into the world of narrative podcasting. I’ve mentioned before that I’m not an expert. I’ve been learning these things along with you. This episode is a continuation through the podcasting workflow and is kind of a part 2 to last week’s episode where we talked about planning your narrative podcast. This week we will take those plans and begin to make actual preparations. We’ll be getting things set in place so we will be ready to record. In a previous episode, we heard from Jessica Abel, the author of the book “Out on the Wire” and the host of the associated podcast. She shared some things about planning and creating the narrative arc. We won’t rehash those things now, but she helps us take the next step. 7 you have a character who's going to be at the center of the story, you want to think about what are these stages that they've gone through, and the change that you want to depict in your narrative, right? 8 you figure out when the turning points are, when do they go from one place to another place, where were their dilemmas, where were their decision-points, and then when you go to the person you want to ask them all kinds of questions about those decisions that they had to make, and about those moments of change, and how was it before, and how was it after. So your preparation is often figuring out the bare outlines of what this person's story is, and then deciding where do you want to delve in further. 4   In our case, we very specifically targeted certain individuals that we wanted for their knowledge-base and their experience in the industry. Corey Coates joins us again. He is from Podfly, helping podcasters  with their podcast production. He also works with Jessica Rhodes in creating The Podcast Producers podcast. It's tough because in a lot of cases you have folks that are the most boisterous, or the most vocal, the most prominent in some of the communities and Facebook groups, that may not necessarily be the ones who are bringing the best information, We know, because I've been in podcasting for 10 years, Jessica'd been doing this for two, three years, as well, so we kind of got a sense of those, you pass kind of the sniff test, if you will, you can kind of tell when you talk to folks that they're either really legit, they know their stuff, and they're really making a contribution, or they're kind of jokers and they're coming in and they're just sort of marketing themselves and not really the skills that they may have acquired Dave Jackson from the School of Podcasting also does a lot of experimenting and testing of different things in the podcasting world. He chimes in on this as well. 9   Well for me, I've done it where I have chosen guests who had the background I was looking for, So by doing that, I kind of knew that the information they were going to provide, I wasn't going to really have to sift through much, it should all fit the goal of the episode, you have to listen to it all again, in fact, by the time it's over, you're so sick of hearing the same thing over and over, that it can be a little crazy, but I think if you have the right guest, that I guess in a way, I asked people that I think I know the answer. I'm trying to--not get them to say what I think, but maybe reinforce what I think. And then I'm always open-minded, so if they bring in something that I'm like, ooh, I didn't know that, that's even better. Erik K. Johnson refers to the popular podcast, Serial, to help draw some conclusions here. 12 Finding people to interview really comes down to the story that you want to tell. If you're interviewing, if you're creating this serial podcast, you need to talk to the guy that did it, or didn't do it, the guy, the accused. That's the key. Then you might want to try and talk to the individual that made the arrest, or people close to the story. People that have intimate knowledge of the story that you're trying to tell. you simply have to make sure you find the people that will help contribute to the story. Rye Taylor can get excited about telling stories and brings it back to core of the matter. 18   So, you've got to stick with your theme, and you've got to play with that idea of how do other people play into the hero's story, because you've always got to keep that as the main focus, that main theme and also to focus on the hero during that event.   Whether you are doing a narrative podcast or and interview-based show, finding and securing the perfect guest can be a lot of work. If you don’t have the time or connections to do this yourself, you can get some professional help to take care of the heavy lifting for you. Jessica Rhodes, one of our featured guests this season, started Interview Connections to help podcasters connect with guests. Jessica and her team work diligently to get to know both the podcasts and the guests so they can be a matchmaker. If a guest isn’t quite right, they strive to find out more so they can present only the best matches. It’s a win-win situation for everyone. Check out InterviewConnections.com today. [short music interlude] As with coins and stories, there are two sides to this issue of who to interview. Much of what we have heard so far emphasizes the importance of starting with the hero and main theme of the story. Then you target specific people to help tell the story. Rye Taylor looks at the benefits of both of these. 16 I think that you never know where the gold is going to come from when you're interviewing people. It depends on the narrative again, what type of story you're telling and where you are. If this is a live scenario, I would definitely make sure that you talk to numerous people, even if you think that they're not going to be a good part of this story. You'd be surprised. I'll give you an example. I'm going to be releasing a show called Daring & Rye, which is my story that's talking about me as a fat, middle-aged guy with a young family, who's ready to recapture an adventurous life. That is me. Okay? That's my desire. I'm the hero of that story. Now, just because I'm the hero of that story doesn't mean that I don't need supporting characters or other people to actually play a role in that. So during a trip to Colorado, during this whole narrative, I actually went and interviewed people during a day called the Penguin Plunge. Now the Penguin Plunge is a blast of an event because what it is, is these individuals from all over this part of Colorado actually come together, in the middle of February, and jump into this frigid, freezing cold water for a specific charity, okay? Now, I interviewed several people that jumped into the water for a specific charity, and I had a blast doing it. They had some amazing stories. I learned all of these things. Now, could I add that all to my narrative? Of course not, but I learned some amazing stories, and I was able to weave the best parts of that story throughout my own narrative and how it applied to me. It's not about them, it's about me in this particular instance, because I'm the hero of the story. Does that mean that their stories aren't important? Of course not. But you've got to have a variety of interviews--a variety--and then choose the best pieces that actually are the most applicable to your story, okay? 21 Sure, well, I think a lot of it just comes down to recognizing that, in this point, you are literally documenting everything, every interaction... This is Geoff Woods. He hosts the Mentee podcast where he records and shares raw conversations with mentors. ...and so all these conversations that you have with people, I think you just let them know, hey, do you mind if I record this? Not only for my own retention, I like to listen back, but oftentimes I find little snippets of gold that could go into my podcast, and if I come across something, I would be sure to reach back out to you and ask for your permission specifically, would that be okay? And more often than not, people are going to say yes. Very rarely have I gotten a no. And the only times when I've gotten a no is when it was an incredibly personal and private conversation on their end. They just did not want that documented. Which I could respect. 22   you end up with a slew of content and recording, and at that point it was just a matter--you got to document it, you got to form some system of marking the date you sat down, what you talked about, maybe moments--you'll know when you're in that conversation, like oh my gosh, that was a golden nugget--to be able to look at your recorder and say, hey at 19 minutes and 27 seconds, I need to go back and listen to that moment. Being able to just have some type of a system for that, and as you go forward, all of a sudden you wake up one day and you're like, hey, I want to do an episode on this, and you remember, I had this one conversation with Josh, and I remember there was a gold nugget, and then you pull up your Evernote, for example, and you look at the Josh Rivers Interview note, and you see like, ooh, 19 minutes and 27 seconds, there was a golden nugget, and you fast-forward straight to there, and you go boom, there it is. 1   I work in the tape a lot, that's the biz talk for the way that I do it, which is I go through the tape and I find areas that are really strong in the tape, that I'm definitely going to use, and then I find some areas that are weak. Bryan Orr hosts the Podcast Movement Sessions podcast. In fact, he’s the one that introduced me Jessica Abel and “Out on the Wire.” I'm not too choosy. Meaning that I'm not Ira Glass, so I can't get anybody I want. So anybody who's willing to talk to me about something that's related to my topic, I turn the recorder on for them, because why not? It's not that big of a deal. The interview podcast world spends so much time focusing on prepping for interviews and making sure that you're all set up, and sitting their at your desk, but I rely a lot on having my mobile set up with me, and I can do a cellphone interview or whatever, because the point of these kind of secondary voices, is just to create some bounce. So it's okay if it's on a cellphone, it's okay if it's not perfect, or if you're using the Ringer app, or whatever, to get the content. So I just say get a lot of tape. You'll know pretty much right away whether there's some good parts in there or not, and if there's not, then you just don't use it. Part of Brian’s perspective comes from the fact that his podcast largely has been pre-recorded - it was a reflection of the sessions at Podcast Movement 2015. He would take parts of the recorded sessions, and then he would try to get a short interview with the speaker. He would also try to get some snippets from some of the attendees. 2   Yeah, because you never know what you're going to get, so sometimes you'll get really, really great stuff from really unexpected places like, a perfect example is, I interviewed Adam Sachs, he's the CEO of Midroll and Earwolf, so he's this significant player in podcasting, but he doesn't do a lot of interviews, I only used a couple small clips from him, but the clips I did use were really good clips, 3 But if you had listened to that entire 30 minutes, you would have thought it was a pretty poor interview in general. That's where using the kind of ethos of the one-take interview show doesn't translate into narrative. 10   But I think if I just picked anybody, and now I got to go through their story, and their history, to find out why they did what, that's all great, but again, the more I have to listen through and cut out the stuff that doesn't fit, the more time it takes, so I'd rather have a guest that I was pretty sure is going to hit the nail on the head. That was Dave Jackson again. This is a good point to keep in mind - if you try to go too wide and capture everything from everyone, there’s that much more stuff to go back through later on. But sometimes, it’s the best that you can do. Like Rye said - you never know where the gold is going to come from. When talking with Corey Coates, he shares his concern about some people that are careless about who they talk to. 5   I know a lot of other approaches might be how many people can we try and get to capture in a really big wide net, and bring them in, but I can tell you now--and Jessica can speak best to this as a guest booker--that the more specific you go towards somebody as a guest, having knowledge of who they are, their programming, their background, what have you, the more likely they are to agree, because they know that you're not just coming at them with a form-letter that you send to everyone. they basically build an email list, and they blast it like a newsletter that they're doing a show, who wants to get involved? every aspect of humanity you can imagine is out there in the podcasting sphere, and you get the good, the bad, and the ugly every single day, but for me a lot of those referrals, like hey, who should I talk to, really respond from having a really good conversations in interviews for the show, and then them mentioning to me, it's like, hey by the way, you might want to talk to so and so, and because they really have a lot of great information on this, and they're fun to interview. [music interlude] So far in our planning and preparation, we’ve discussed several things about creating the story arc and finding the right people to voice the story. Most of the time, you may be looking for people to add to the story directly. Daniel J. Lewis makes some interesting observations about another potential reason to connect with others. 20   So as far as getting other people into your conversations, it's having those conversations, it's recording them, of course, it's finding people who would have some kind of feedback. Now, it could be as simple as someone being a sounding board, and you're telling them, I want to tell you this idea, I want to bounce some ideas off of you, please give me your feedback, don't just sit there and go uh huh, yeah, yeah, uh huh, uh huh. But feel free to ask me any questions, challenge anything I say, add anything that you think of. It's okay if you're not an expert, I just want another voice here with me, and that can sometimes turn out pretty good, because not only does it mean it's another voice, but it's a completely different perspective that could potentially bring something to the conversation that you would have never thought of including in your narrative storytelling. One thing that we as podcasters worry about - or probably should worry about more - is using various audio clips legally. I am certainly no lawyer, so you’ll want to talk to your own about your particular situation. Music is usually one of the biggest issues when it comes to using audio legally, but using clips of people could pose a potential problem. There are a couple simple solutions that you could try. 19   it could be as simple as just starting the conversation where they see the recorder, and you say, hey, I'm recording this conversation, I might use this in a podcast, are you okay with that? Erik K. Johnson adds to this a little more. 11   When you recruit the people that you're going to interview for your podcast, I think it's important to let them know, this is going to be part of a longer story, I'm putting together a piece, a story, an expose on x-topic, where I'm interviewing various people for the project, and I'll use part of your interview within the project. If they know that it's not simply an interview podcast, and that their entire interview won't be used, that we're using bits and pieces of your interview, I think that's good to know up front, I'm not sure it's going to change any of their answers, but I think it's wise for you to tell them that, so they're not surprised when they hear the show come out. I do think it's important that you let your guests know that nothing they say will be taken out of context, which comes down to your editing, you need to make sure you edit so the pieces that you're including from your guests are actually what your guest said, you're not changing their words in any way. Another thing that you’ll likely come across is when multiple people tell you the same story or details. 13   Now, if you find multiple people who are giving you the same story, you can use bits and pieces of each one, but I think you might be spinning your wheels trying to find individuals that are giving you the same information. One of them really isn't necessary, because you've already got the information. So find the most credible one, the one that will be the most entertaining, and use that particular individual. This next tip from Erik will probably apply more to the next episode when we talk about recording, but it’s wise to keep this in mind now. 14   You will find when you go to edit down your podcast, to put it into parts, you will find it easier to edit when they've given you complete sentences. 15 this is where the art of interviewing comes in. You need to ask questions that will generate answers that are complete sentences when taken by themselves, will stand out in a narrative podcast. The answer has to stand on its own without the question setting it up, and I think it's most important that you find guests that can provide that for you, than it is finding guests of any particular genre or nature, or knowledge. A great question you can ask when you're trying to get complete sentences, is if you're interviewing somebody who's not giving you complete sentences, use the complete this sentence for me. The most important aspect of interviewing is blank. And then have them repeat that first part. They would say I think the most important piece of interviewing is, and they'd fill in their answer. So if you run into somebody who won't give you complete sentence, use that trick on them. I didn’t do this when I interviews most of the guests. Sometimes I got complete sentences - sometimes I didn’t. It could be helpful to also talk about this with the guest when you start. Maybe say, “When we record, it would be helpful if you’re able to speak in complete sentences. I may ask you to repeat something so that we can get the information in the best way.” Doc Kennedy mentions another place that would be good to find some good voices. 6 I think there's a number of podcasters out there that'd be willing to help, and one of the keys there is that we know they have the audio set up to be able to record and give you a high quality voice coming back. You don't want to have somebody on that doesn't have the right setup. They might have the right voice, but if they don't have the right setup, then it's not going to work out. So find people that you can work with all the way, and I would reach out through whatever means you have, connecting through social media, listening to other podcasts, listening to maybe even another narrative podcast. Just find people you can connect with that fit that right tone, maybe it's somebody in your family. Just have them come over and do some recording with you, make sure it's going to work, and then just compensate them fairly, at the worst, dinner or something. That's how I would go about casting. Not only may you need help with the voices, but you may need help with some other parts of the production process. You may have noticed that this series is not being released weekly. In fact, the release schedule isn’t regular at all. This is because I didn’t plan this part of the process well. I didn’t think I would need help. I felt like I could handle it. While I might be able to do everything in a technical sense, time is a definite disadvantage. I didn’t think my schedule would get as busy as it did, and I didn’t think different parts would take as long as they did either. Like many podcasters, “life” has gotten in the way of the podcast production and delayed the release. I have outsourced getting transcripts for the upcoming episodes - at least transcripts of the clips I may use. It helps to see, in writing, the different things that the guests are saying. Then I can mark which parts to cut and rearrange the clips in a logical way with greater ease. I can then script the parts to narrate, edit the clips, and mix them together. If you’d be interested in a behind the scenes look and lending a hand in this podcast, I would love to hear from you. Simply go to CreativeStudio.Academy and click “Contact” on the menu or you can email me “joshua@podcastguy.co”. If you’d like a peek behind the scenes, but you’re not sure if you can help, you can go to the website and join the mailing list. I’ll be sending some things there soon to show some of what I’ve done, including how I’m taking the transcript and working it into a final script. I also have another thing going on in the background that has been taking some of my time, and I’ll share a little of that next episode. Thanks again for listening, and I’ll catch you on the next episode of the Creative Studio. God Bless!

Comedian and Jersey boy Chris Gethard wasn't quite ready to host one of the hottest and most popular podcasts around. As he explains to Adam Sachs on this episode of The Wolf Den, he thought there would be some time in the first few months to feel it out. Instead, getting featured on This American Life attracted a massive audience to his show, Beautiful Stories from Anonymous People, who stuck around because of the singular mix of openness, honesty and empathy with which Chris treats the callers to his show. He talks about how the concept for the podcast evolved with the help of producers Gretta Cohn and John Delore, and how he was also surprised by the effusive feedback he's received from listeners and fans. Chris also reflects on how making the podcast is different from his Fusion television show, “The Chris Gethard Show,” and how Beautiful/Anonymous fits into his desire to find  happiness in making things. Finally, he doles out some tough love advice for aspiring podcasters, and anyone pursuing creative endeavors.This episode is sponsored by Podcast Movement.

Sean and Hayes take a Twitter request to discuss the teaser for Hardcore Henry and arrive at some big questions. Then they invite Earwolf/Midroll CEO ADAM SACHS to join them just to hang out as friends and not because they're worried about being cancelled.

How does Paul F. Tompkins manage his email? Will there ever be another episode of the Pod F. Tompkast? What is it like to do more than 100 episodes of Comedy Bang Bang? All these questions, and more, will be answered on this episode of The Wolf Den, when podcasting's über-guest subjects himself to the queries of host Adam Sachs. Paul explains why he still feels like he's learning to do improv, and what he's learned from working with great comedy podcasters. He also reveals the inspiration behind his seemingly-random impressions of celebrities like TV and film director Garry Marshall. Paul also gives a little behind-the-scenes peek at the Superego podcast and the Howl Original spin-off, Superego's Forgotten Classics. No self-respecting comedy podcast fan can miss it.

This episode explores Marc Maron's live interview on stage with Adam Sachs of Midroll. We not only get to laugh with Marc but there are some very teachable moments where we learn about listening, interviewing, relatability and generosity. You will come away from this episode feeling a deeper appreciation for podcasting and Marc Maron. Oh yeah... and Marc talks about The President Barack Obama coming to his GARAGE. #Podcasting #PodcastMovement #Podcaster #PM16

Saveur magazine Editor-in-Chief Adam Sachs is a multi-award winning food journalist who oversees print and digital magazines that transport readers through its inspiring culinary travel and cultural articles and recipes. The November issue puts a spicy twist on the traditional Thanksgiving meal. Wine maker Susana Balbo has been called "The Queen of Torrontes" and "Argentina's Evita of Wine." She discusses her approach to working with varietals such as Torrontes, Tannat, Bonarda and Malbec, This show is broadcast live on W4CY Radio – (www.w4cy.com) part of Talk 4 Radio (http://www.talk4radio.com/) on the Talk 4 Media Network http://www.talk4media.com/).

Spreaker Live Show #25 for Sept 16th, 2015:Host: Rob Greenlee, Head of Content, Spreaker @robgreenlee - rob at spreaker docomGuest: Adam Sachs, Former CEO of MidRoll Media at http://midroll.com and @arsachsTopics:- Host of his own MidRoll podcast called The Wolf Den?- What is it about podcasting that got you so excited about podcasting? - How did your prior company StepOut prepare you for MidRoll and taking such a leadership role in Podcasting?- Please tell us about becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary of Scripps Company? - Combining older media with new is interesting?- Let’s cover the scope of things MidRoll Media does around podcasting?- What it takes for a show to be appealing to a network or ad sales platform? - What are some of the biggest opportunities around podcasting?- Your thoughts on the IAB up fronts, metrics standardization, convergence of radio (local) and on demand? - Is podcasting as we know it today a bridge to something different in the 5-10 year future?- Does a product like Amazon Echo and in car voice controls give you pause to ponder?Spreaker Live Show Links: http://Midroll.com http://www.Earwolf.com/show/wolf-denhttp://Adore.fmhttp://blog.spreaker.comhttp://SpreakerLiveShow.comhttps://Spreaker.comSend Questions and Comments to: @Spreaker on Twitter using #SpreakerLive Tech Support: support@spreaker.comRob Greenlee: Rob at Spreaker.com

Spreaker Live Show #25 for Sept 16th, 2015:Host: Rob Greenlee, Head of Content, Spreaker @robgreenlee - rob at spreaker docomGuest: Adam Sachs, Former CEO of MidRoll Media at http://midroll.com and @arsachsTopics:- Host of his own MidRoll podcast called The Wolf Den?- What is it about podcasting that got you so excited about podcasting? - How did your prior company StepOut prepare you for MidRoll and taking such a leadership role in Podcasting?- Please tell us about becoming a wholly-owned subsidiary of Scripps Company? - Combining older media with new is interesting?- Let’s cover the scope of things MidRoll Media does around podcasting?- What it takes for a show to be appealing to a network or ad sales platform? - What are some of the biggest opportunities around podcasting?- Your thoughts on the IAB up fronts, metrics standardization, convergence of radio (local) and on demand? - Is podcasting as we know it today a bridge to something different in the 5-10 year future?- Does a product like Amazon Echo and in car voice controls give you pause to ponder?Spreaker Live Show Links: http://Midroll.com http://www.Earwolf.com/show/wolf-denhttp://Adore.fmhttp://blog.spreaker.comhttp://SpreakerLiveShow.comhttps://Spreaker.comSend Questions and Comments to: @Spreaker on Twitter using #SpreakerLive Tech Support: support@spreaker.comRob Greenlee: Rob at Spreaker.com

This week on All in the Industry, host Shari Bayer welcomes Editor-in-Chief of Saveur, Adam Sachs. Getting the scoop on his path to food writing, Adam goes on to share his favorite places visited, written about, and more importantly, eaten through! Having traveled around the world, Adam relays that Saveur seeks to bring its reader to the source of unique and delicious food. Shari gets his thoughts on the Instagram plus how magazine pieces come together before Adam answers the speed round questions. Tune in to hear what’s on the horizon for Saveur as well as industry news and the solo dining experience! This program was brought to you by EscapeMaker.com. “For me, it is a dream job because Saveur is a magazine about following food to its source.” [18:20] “I think one of the pleasures of print is to bring it with you!” [22:40] “Our reader is someone who likes to travel, cook, likes to eat and drink and know where their food comes from and likes a story.” [24:40] —Adam Sachs on All in the Industry

Hollywood meets podcasting with guest Franklin Leonard, founder and CEO of The Black List, and host of the Wolfpop show, The Black List Table Reads. Franklin tells Adam Sachs how The Black List began as an informal survey he did just looking for good scripts to read, quickly becoming an annual list of the best unproduced screenplays. In 2012 The Black List launched as a online script database letting screenwriters upload their work to be shared with and evaluated by industry professionals, and Franklin explains how the company's business is driven by a core mission of finding great stories and helping them get told. Then he tells the story of how the idea for the Table Reads podcast was born, and recalls the day he pitched it to Adam and Wolfpop network curator Paul Scheer. They discuss how the show has evolved over the course of three, four-episode “earmovies,” and Franklin details his goals for it.

Comedian, television host, author, filmmaker and podcaster Adam Carolla joins Adam Sachs on The Wolf Den to discuss the business side of his many endeavors.  Carolla recalls that the idea to podcast was born from the fact that his morning show on terrestrial radio was number two online. So, when that gig ended in 2009 he knew where there was a ready audience. He explains how that fit his overall business strategy, which is “somewhere between proactive and reactive,” seizing opportunities and then going with what makes sense along the way. Then Carolla describes the origin of his new motivational “Take a Knee” podcast as part of the subscription-based Adam Carolla Show Archive. Finally, he offers up advice for budding podcasters.

Businessman Adam Sachs (Earwolf, Wolfpop) lets Box into Earwolf studios and discusses starting his first business (a group dating app), the future of podcasting and more! http://boxangeles.com/067

This is Jeff's last episode. It's also the one where he passes the torch to Adam Sachs, The Wolf Den's new host and the new CEO of Earwolf's parent company, Midroll Media. They talk about why Jeff started the show, and Jeff offers some friendly advice for taking over the host's chair. Adam shares some of his background running a startup, and as a comedy nerd. Then he tells the story of how and why he joined Midroll Media. Finally, Jeff asks Adam what's next for Earwolf and Midroll.

Adam Sachs joins Lex for a very special episode of Your Daily Lex.

Adam Sachs joins Lex for a very special episode of Your Daily Lex.

Lex has a first world problem. And sore muscles. It's been a tough couple days, folks.