Podcasts about sexvangelicals

Deconstruction is the process of re-evaluating the worldview and behavioral expectations of a specific community.    Talking openly about sexual experiences that exist outside of purity culture dictates is one of the fastest ways that a couple from a high control religious context may begin deconstructing.   Season 9 of Sexvangelicals explores ten of the most commonly asked questions that we receive as sex therapists. And it starts with perhaps the most stress-inducing question of all:   Can my relationship survive deconstruction?   In this episode, we talk about: A relational health assessment that explores how you and your partner talk about sexuality. Five themes that point to the health of your sexual relationship, as well as areas that might need some attention. Three strategies for finding a sex therapist.

 Letting the dust settle allows us to step out of the reactionary space and evaluate our own lives and relationships.    In our final episode of the series "How to Practice Social Justice Without Being a Jackass", Julia and Jeremiah talk about how to make decisions based on values that are important to you and your family system. A proactive process, rather than reactive process, also makes it easier to make relationships with people who align with your values. Check out our conversations about: PACT: The Psychobiological Approach to Couples Therapy Discovering your values Relationship anarchy Creating a shared purpose and vision statement Partnering with people who have a shared vision, but perhaps different lanes Check out Episode #86: Letting the Dust Settle: Finding Your Values and People on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.   Show notes and transcript are on the Sexvangelicals website.  

We are thrilled to have Julia and Jeremiah (aka the Sexvangelicals) back on the podcast today to wrap up our Religious Trauma and the Elections mini-series. Today's topic: Project 2025. If you haven't heard about it or don't know what, consider this your catch up course to all things related to Project 2025. And in our opinion, this project gets an “F”. Jeremiah and Julia explain various policies, the language used, the history behind why we got here and how it connects to Christian Nationalism. To Connect with the Sexvangelicals:www.sexvangelicals.com Substack (Relationship 101): https://sexvangelicals.substack.com/IG: @sexvangelicalsResources mentioned in the pod:Andra Watkins' article: https://project2025istheocracy.substack.com/p/why-anti-abortion-laws-christianSexvangelicals' first Project 2025 article: https://sexvangelicals.substack.com/p/what-does-the-republican-party-actuallySexvangelicals' second Project 2025 article: https://sexvangelicals.substack.com/p/what-is-a-family-according-to-theLink to Project 2025 (the entire 900-pages!)This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions.The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups. Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com Hosts: Laura Anderson and Andrew KerbsMusic by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at kevincrowe.co.

November's presidential election represents a comparison between two forms of government. One, a democracy, driven by the principle that many people have voices, and ideally a government that works for a large sum of people. Two, an autocracy, driven by the principle that few people have voices.   Autocracies, such as the 2024 Republican Party, often communicate via jackassdom, including blame, repression, and fear-mongering. In this episode, Julia and Jeremiah talk about common communication ploys from autocracy, and ways that progressives and other pro-democracy voters can avoid responding in ways that reinforce jackassdom. We talk about: Strategies of Autocracy What is populism? Political Theatre, a Distraction  Populism & Anti-Intellectualism  Moralism v. Moral Critique  How Social Media Limits Empathy Check out Episode #79: How to Do Social Justice This Election Season Without Being a Jackass: Understanding Populism on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.   Show notes and transcript are on the Sexvangelicals website.  

Brad nterviews therapists The Sexvangelicals, Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson about Project 2025. They discuss the implications of 'family values' as proposed in the project, highlighting the potential negative impact on diverse family structures, marginalized communities, and contemporary family systems research. The conversation explores the rhetorical tactics used to promote a patriarchal, heteronormative, and monogamous view of family, standing against progressive ideologies related to family dynamics, gender, and sexuality. Subscribe for $5.99 a month to get bonus content most Mondays, bonus episodes every month, ad-free listening, access to the entire 600-episode archive, Discord access, and more: https://axismundi.supercast.com/ https://www.sexvangelicals.com/about Linktree: https://linktr.ee/StraightWhiteJC Order Brad's book: https://bookshop.org/a/95982/9781506482163 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're an eight year-old girl. The purity culture of your evangelical church, ruled by men but policed by women, has you worried that the spaghetti straps on your summer top might be sinful. You learn from the women around you how to defer, serve, please, keep your voice girl-like forever, and use it to both signal obedience but also piously request relief from sexual aggression.  You're a seven year-old boy. The holy laws of gender in your church dictate that when you're the only male present at Bible study, you must lead the room full of women in reading and prayer. You must perform manliness in your boy's body, assuming an anxious leadership role you did not earn. If you don't puff yourself up, you're a sissy—one of the girls alongside you learning the tones of the Fundie Baby Voice. These are parts of the stories of Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson, the co-hosts of the podcast Sexvangelicals: The Sex Education the Church Didn't Want You to Have. They are Boston-based licensed psychotherapists and certified sex therapists. They specialize in helping couples with negative religious backgrounds discover sexuality that works for their partnership. Julian and I sat down with them to learn about how their clients recover from purity culture, and sometimes in the process run smack into its mirror world: the tantric workshop land of divine masculine and feminine stereotypes plus fascinations with semen retention. Show Notes Sexvangelicals: Podcast | Website | Instagram | Substack Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode we're joined by Jeremiah Gibson and Julia Postema, licensed psychotherapists and certified sex therapists based in Utrecht, The Netherlands, hosts a podcast called Sexvangelicals. As we talk about in our discussion with them, their specialization as therapists is helping couples coming out of negative religious backgrounds. In our conversation we talk about their perspective on topics like evangelical purity culture, sexuality and religion, etc., from their professional vantage point as people who themselves grew up in conservative Christian contexts. Team members on the episode from The Two Cities include: Dr. John Anthony Dunne, Dr. Grace Sangalang Ng, the Rev. Dr. Christopher Porter, and Dr. Logan Williams. Get bonus content on Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Our work as relationship therapists invites couples to consider the variety of ways that their relationship could look, based on the values, traits, and preferences of the people in that relationship. Plenty of couples choose monogamy because it best aligns with these characteristics. However, performative monogamy refers to cultural aspects that reinforce explicit and implicit expectations of sexual exclusivity.    On that note, we're talking this week about the performativity of weddings. Evangelical weddings take this a step further as the marriage and wedding ceremony represent the socially sanctioned way for two people to become sexual persons.   We're joined by our marketing and communications director, Maddie, for this episode. The three of us talk about: Weddings as a status symbol The quirks of Evangelical wedding KitchenAid Mixers and other ways that society rewards those who get married Giving away the bride and patriarchy The cringey practices of weddings, like morning after breakfasts and garters. Surviving weddings Check out Episode #75: Summer Series...Taking a Break from the Performativity of Weddings on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.   Show notes and transcript are on the Sexvangelicals website.  

Welcome, Ghosties! This episode, "It's Good To Feel Good," brings the amazing duo of Julia and Jeremiah from the Sexvangelicals podcast to talk with Meg & Sarai about the journey from sexual repression to liberation, shedding light on how purity culture has shaped our views on intimacy and desire. We get INTO IT today, sharing personal stories and things we've learned about reclaiming bodily autonomy, exploring pleasures beyond shame, and challenging conventional norms like monogamy.From Repression to Expression: Join us as we navigate the choppy waters of deconstructing religious beliefs around sex. Our guests share their transformative journeys from sexual repression to embracing full, joyful expression.Shedding the Shame: We'll unravel the threads of shame and outdated gender scripts that high control religions often weave around our desires and relationships.Rediscovering Pleasure: Discover how therapies like sensate focus can help us explore touch and intimacy without the pressure of performance, paving the way for a healthier connection with our bodies.Challenging Norms: Why is monogamy the default? We're discussing how expanding perspectives on relationships can lead to a more fulfilling sexual life.Embodiment and Healing: We wrap up with powerful insights on embodying pleasure, the therapeutic power of yoga, and making our bodies a safe haven for our souls.Sexual liberation and healing from trauma are not just topics; they're pathways to deeper self-discovery and healthier relationships. Whether you're navigating these waters yourself or just curious about the conversation, there's something in this episode for everyone.Find the Sexvangelicals, Julia & Jeremiah, at Sexvangelicals.comSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/holy-ghosting/exclusive-contentAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

This week, Sexvangelicals has teamed up with the I was a Teenage Fundamentalist podcast, to bring you their thought-provoking conversation with Tracey Phalen. She herself was a teenage fundamentalist, and details her experience as a member of the Last Days Ministries. The episode begs the question, was Keith Green a cult leader? 

Mother's Day was this weekend, and is a complicated holiday for many folks. On the one hand, the celebration of women's expected unpaid labor for one singular day seems trite, at best. On another hand, women navigate a myriad of challenges on the pathway to motherhood, from obnoxious questions about timing, to pregnancy loss.  Ideally, parenting is a collaborative relationship between two (or more) parents, with each parent contributing an equal amount to the development of their children. We talk with Lindsay, Meg, and Sarai from the Holy Ghosting Podcast (@holyghostingpod) about their experiences co-parenting, both while in religious communities, and during the deconstruction process. We discuss: Co-Parenting Wins  Deconstructing Human Depravity as a Parent Trusting Yourself Outside of Religion  Choice in Motherhood Abortion  Stillbirth  Lack of Structure and Support  Creating Space for Grief  The Myth of "Spiritual Warfare" Not Believing is Not an Option  Pre-Existing Conditions and Shame Mirroring Healthy Disagreements in Coparenting  Parenting Post-Deconstruction Check out Episode 70: How to Navigate Co-Parenting Post Deconstruction, with Lindsay, Meg, and Sarai from the Holy Ghosting Pod on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.   Show notes and transcript are on the Sexvangelicals website.

Pride month next month is going to be especially important.  Based on the threats from Project 2025 and the behavior of other religious nationalist groups, federal bills that prevent states from discriminating against queer folks are at risk.    Coming out, already a stress-inducing process, especially for folks in conservative areas, would have far greater anxiety connected with it under a second Trump administration.   We invite singer-songwriter Adaline, founder of the nonprofit Bad Believer, to help explore the anxieties that come with coming out. Adaline talks with us about: Her new album, Hymnal No Hate Like Christian Love Erasing Love  Rebecca St. James & Waiting Not Being a Part of Your Own Story The Mythmaking of Purity Culture Autonomy and Choosing Yourself  Love Songs Radical Acceptance, Jesus, and Unconditional Love Hymnal was released March 22. Download it today!   Also, check out this episode and all other episodes of Sexvangelicals on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.   Show notes and transcript are on the SV website.

What are the messages that we wish we learned about masculinity? What are messages that we'd like to teach younger generations about masculinity, and in conjunction, how we might do relationships more effectively, more collaboratively?   We are thrilled to have Zach Wagner (@zacharycwagner), author of Non-Toxic Masculinity, on Sexvangelicals this week. Zach talks with us about: The Books of Deconstruction The Narrative of Sex and Conquest Broadening the Script Male Sexuality Injecting Shame  Shame & Desire EMPish Communities and Being “Counter-Cultural” Internalized Narratives  Desire  Starting Sex Ed Early Check out Episode #67: Banned Books: Non-Toxic Masculinity, by Zach Wagner, part 2 of 2 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.    Show notes and transcript are on the SV website.

Joined by the hosts of Sexvangelicals podcast, Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson who are both sex and couples therapists. They both grew up in religious communities with strictly controlled sexual beliefs. Our conversation covers topics like, sexual health and relational health and how much they affect each other, forced vulnerability,  perceived injury, helpful books and so much more.  Support the showSupport The Show: https://paypal.me/bnbdonations?country.x=US&locale.x=en_USVisit our WebsiteFollow us:InstagramFacebookTwitter

Are you interested in writing a memoir? Then this episode is especially for you!   We're excited to have Tia Levings @tialevingsswriter, author of the upcoming book A Well Trained Wife, as our guest for Sexvangelicals this week.   Tia talks with us about: Hero's Journey Not Exploiting Your Own Story  Babies and Resilience The Nuance in Deconstruction  Finding Light in the Dark  Honoring Our Instincts  Slowing Down  Write the Book  The Books of Deconstruction  Check out Episode #65 Banned Books: A Well Trained Wife, with Tia Levings, part 2 of 2 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.   Show notes and transcript are on the SV website.

How does one unlearn the rigid beliefs of purity culture? This week, Dr. Kate is joined by Julia and Jeremiah of Sexvangelicals, a a podcast, educational platform, and community building project offering the sex education the church didn't want you to have. The three of them unpack: • The impact that these environments can have on one's relationship to pleasure and sex • The sense of grief and loss that can come hand in hand with the freedom of exiting high control environments • Redefining the role of importance that sex plays in your life and so much more! Be sure to check out Sexvangelicals podcast to gain insight on giving yourself permission to be a sexual person, navigating the deconstructing process, and healing from the ways that Christian communities may have gotten it wrong. RESOURCES MENTIONED: When Religion Hurts You (book) by Laura Anderson Sunday School Dropouts (podcast) by Laura Anderson and Andrew Kerbs A special thank you to this episode's sponsor, VIIA HEMP! Head to Viiahemp.com and use the code GETNAKED to receive 15% off + one free sample of their sleepy Dreams gummies. (21+). Happy Holidaze! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

We recently stumbled upon a podcast we thought you'd love. Sexvangelicals is a sexual health podcast and education platform with the mission to support relationships in reclaiming sexuality following adverse religious experiences. This is one of their episodes, The Sex Ed We Wish We Had: Consent, Part 1 of 2. We hope you enjoy it. If you want to connect with Sexvangelicals then find them here: Sexvangelicals (website) Sexvangelicals (podcast) -- Want more IWATF? Check out our exclusive Patreon episodes here.  Podcast links: https://linktr.ee/iwatf  Doubting your beliefs? Have questions about changing or leaving your faith? You are not alone and Recovering from Religion is here to help. Please visit: https://www.recoveringfromreligion.org/ 

Today we are excited to have the Sexvangelicals, that is Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson, on our podcast! Julia and Jeremiah are licensed and AASECT certified psychotherapists who use their personal and professional lives and experience to work with relationships where at least one partner has been a part of high control religion, fundamentalism or purity culture.  Resources Developmental Model - Ellen Bater AASECT.org - finding a sex therapist Six Steps for a structured question Decide on specific topic - key word SPECIFIC! (Ex: what are my favorite places to be touched, to be kissed, preferences around initiation) Agenda - (not rigid) what  is the purpose of this conversation? Eg. understanding each other better, resolving conflict Choose a time and location that will set you up for success (beginning and end) - try to make it outside the house Set a timer based on the topic, level of vulnerability and your level of experience in these conversations Stay on topic! Once you've decided what the topic is, write it on a sticky note or card what the topic is so you can refer to it later to help you stay on topic! Aftercare - sometimes these conversations can be going or vulnerable so how can you come back together with your partner *(e.g. a game, going out to eat, cuddling) This podcast is brought to you by the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery: an online trauma coaching company whose practitioners are trauma informed and trauma trained to work with individuals, couples and families who have experienced high control religion, cults, and religious trauma. For more information on the support that CTRR provides, for resources–including courses, workshops, and more–head to traumaresolutionandrecovery.com or follow us on Instagram: @traumaresolutionandrecovery  The views and opinions expressed by Sunday School Dropouts are those of the hosts and not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of the Center for Trauma Resolution and Recovery. Any of the content provided by our guests, sponsors, authors, or bloggers are their own ideas and opinions. The Sunday School Dropouts podcast is not anti-religion but it is anti -harm, -power and control, -oppression and, -abuse and will speak to the harmful practices and messaging of fundamentalist groups.  Follow Andrew on Instagram and TikTok @deconstruct_everything  Follow Laura on Instagram and TikTok @drlauraeanderson or on her website: www.drlauraeanderson.com  Hosts:  Laura Anderson and Andrew Kerbs Music by Benjamin Faye Music @heytherebenji  Editing and Production by Kevin Crowe and can be found at  www.kevincrowe.co

One of the most common relational processes that the deconstructing world talks about is boundaries. Evangelical circles encourage the elimination of boundaries. Sexuality is public, as Purity Culture invites people in leadership positions to make a variety of comments about people's bodies. Accountability groups and testimonials favor people who describe the most intimate parts of their stories.    When making sense of these harmful systems, it's easy to go the opposite direction with boundaries; in fact, quite a few people in the deconstructing community invite people to do this. But as we talk about with Laura Anderson, author of When Religion Hurts You, the construction of boundaries is a complex, nuanced process, something more complicated than just "Setting those boundaries".   Laura talks with us about:  Leaving religious spaces Trust development post-religion Boundary rigidity Differences being dangerous Pop psychology messages around boundaries Trauma in the context of relationships The practice of slowing down Healing ourselves first Accommodations and understanding Check out Episode #61: Banned Books, with Laura Anderson, part 2 of 2 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.   Show notes and transcript are on the Sexvangelicals website.   

Purity Culture is largely embedded within White social and political systems intended to dominate and control bodies through a hyper-moralistic, anti-sex landscape.   However, in this last week of Black History month, it's imperative that we talk about the ways that Purity Culture has impacted Black communities.   To help us, we are sharing our interview with Deesha Philyaw (@deeshaphilyaw), author of The Secret Lives of Church Ladies, about how the values of Purity Culture have infiltrated Black churches and informed sexual relationships and expectations within the Black community. We talk about: Purity Culture within Cultural Contexts Values  How Sexual Misinformation Informs the Writing Process The Lack of Conversation  Divorce within the Church Fiction and Sexual Health  Suffering in Silence  “Daddy Issues''  Grief  Working Through Self-Hate Through Fiction  Sexism within Black Churches  Check out Episode 59: Banned Books: The Secret Lives of Church Ladies, with Deesha Philyaw on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please give us a five star review as well!   Show notes and transcript are found on the Sexvangelicals website.

It's a bromance that eclipses the love of women. It's playful, raw, and unabashed. God has made men in his image, and that image is good, so young christian men at evangelical schools not only proudly display their dicks and balls, they create ways to interact with them. In this episode, we look at the practices and we laugh a little, but we also worry that this entitled, rather domineering display of manhood might have sadder and more insidious implications. These are christian men, after. We are joined by Tori and Justin on the Go Home Bible, You're Drunk podcast, Nate Nakao of the Full Mutuality podcast, and Jeremiah and Julia of the Sexvangelicals podcast. And go back to some old clips of this subject and even revisit some guests to talk more about dicks and balls. At the end there is a bonus segment with Hope and Nicole and BJ, reacting to the episode as only they can. Chapel Probation is part of the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Dauntless Media Collective⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Dauntless Media Discord ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠for more conversation with all the podcast communities. Scott's book, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is available now! Music by Scott Okamoto, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jenyi⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Azeem Khan⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shin Kawasaki⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Wingo Shackleford⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chapel Probation Patreon ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support Scott and for bonus content.  Join the ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chapel Probation Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ group to continue the conversations. Follow Scott on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Substack⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ You can subscribe to Scott's newsletter and learn more about the book, the blog, and performances at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠rscottokamoto.com⁠ --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/scott-okamoto/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/scott-okamoto/support

It's well documented that reporting abuse to larger systems is a daunting process. The Southern Baptist Convention is the latest organization to have been outed for the ways that it protects perpetrators of violence, especially against women and children, two categories of people whose stories are commonly dismissed in our larger society.   We're thrilled to have Sarah Stankorb on our podcast. Sarah Stankorb is the author of the national best-seller Disobedient Women. (For Libsyn only) The award-winning, Ohio-based writer talks about religion, politics, feminism, health, technology, and the public good. In Disobedient Women, she outlines how access to the internet—its networks, freedom of expression, and resources for deeply researching and reporting on powerful church figures—allowed women to begin dismantling the false authority of evangelical communities that had long demanded their submission.   In this episode, Sarah talks with us about the emotional and relational processes that empower women to share their stories and hold systems accountable for their actions. We discuss: The concept of impact vs. intent How the church enables abuse Demonizing anger The fallacies of untethered empathy The weight of speaking up Storytelling and journalism Defining bravery The trad-wife trend, and other systems that encourage women to propagate messages of inequity. Check out Episode #56: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How Anger Can Be a Vital Resource for Processing Trauma and Beginning Change, with Sarah Stankorb on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.   Show notes and transcript can be found on the Sexvangelicals website.

Julia and Jeremiah from the Sexvangelicals podcast (a podcast for providing the sex education the church didn't want you to have) join Uncertain podcast to discuss how Purity Culture can impact men.Some topics addressed in this episode: Erectile DisfunctionShame around sexSexual Agression Gender Binaries Check out two of the Sexvangelicals' episodes featuring Uncertain's host Katherine Spearing:Episode #53: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How to Leave a Controlling Family Environment, with Katherine SpearingEpisode #54: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How Romantic Comedies Can Reinforce the Worst Parts of Evangelical Culture, with Katherine Spearing Katherine: [00:00:00] Hello. How are you? Julia: Good. We're excited. Katherine: Yes. It is morning where I am, or early, early, early afternoon, and then it is evening where you all are. I know. So, thanks for giving up your Saturday night.I know you would. Probably normally be out wildly partying, Jeremiah: right? Wildly. The wildest Julia: of parties. Katherine: You in the Netherlands. Jeremiah: That's right. Hanging out with windmills and eating a bunch of cheese. Julia: Today is Sinterklaas and so I have heard that it is a chaotic time to be out. So this is a good day to be inside.We've got tea. It is raining outside. So this is actually a cozy and a Perfect way to send Saturday night. I love Katherine: it. I am so excited to be able to talk to you. I love, I love y'all's podcast episodes. I have recommended them to, I mostly recommend them to friends of mine who are recently [00:01:00] divorced and first exploring.All of the things that they were not allowed to explore pre evangelical marriage. And and so that's a, that's a recommendation y'all are a recommendation that I pass around to some folks. I love your intro. My favorite part about your, your. Podcast episode for listeners is how you, you kind of interview each other and chat like before your episodes, those, those are always really, Jeremiah: yes, absolutely.And we do talk about divorce a lot on our podcast. So, that is unfortunately a part of our story and, and, and how we've come into how we've come into recognizing the impact of purity culture on relationships, so. Is that a part Katherine: of both of your stories? Julia: It is. Yeah. We are both we are both divorced.Katherine: All right. And then, did you all get into doing what you do as sex and relationship therapy post [00:02:00] evangelicalism? Our post? These experiences or was this something that came up before, were you already working in this? Jeremiah: So I, a little bit of both for me. So, I joke with people, except it's not a joke, that I did my first couples therapy session when I was 12.And listeners, you can... Put some of the pieces together. I, so, so I've known for some time that that I wanted to be a couples therapist. Huh. And in the field of psychotherapy there's a specific license for marriage and family therapy. My license is in marriage and family therapy. And a lot of the marriage and family therapy schools are either at these big kind of research schools. So Ohio state has a big program where Julia went Michigan state has one or they're at Christian schools because the history of couples therapy and marriage family [00:03:00] of the history of couples therapy.The history of marriage therapy is pretty closely linked to the Christian community. In fact, our professional organization split in the seventies from the California organization because religious people, the, the pastors spiritual directors in the seventies said like, no, like what's happening in California is too liberal, is too progressive.Let's, let's talk about marriage and let's talk about marriage from the perspective of heteronormativity. And this is. A little bit before James Dobson starts taking over with, with focus on the family, but, but, but it's all connected to that. So. So my graduate program at Abilene Christian University is a Christian university.But interestingly, that was, I would say, probably the beginning of my deconstruction process too. Yeah. Because marriage and family therapy at its root is systems theory. So this idea that everything is interconnected you know, I can't succeed unless you [00:04:00] succeed. We, we talk about this through, through Desmond Tutu's work.And so, so I actually begin realizing, oh, like the church, a lot of the Christian stuff, like, like, isn't really making sense. It's clashing with systems theory. The system stuff makes a lot more sense to me. It connects. The problem is that in my twenties, I am employed by churches. Yeah. I'm, I'm a music my first career is through music ministry.And when I left Texas moved to Boston and very quickly get hired by a church to do music ministry. And so a lot of my thirties, then my early thirties is trying to figure out how to do a systems work. I later discovered sex therapy through, through my office. How to be a sexual health professional and to be a minister at the same time.And I thought I could pull both of them off. The church that I was in worked at claimed to be really [00:05:00] progressive. At the end of the day, I ended up getting fired. I ended up talking about sex therapy too much, made the wrong people uncomfortable, and I get the axe. Oh no! So I end up getting kicked out of Christianity, more so than leaving and choosing not to return to organized religion. Yeah, these Katherine: two things are very connected in your story, like you're very much and your vocation and your deconstruction are, are very entwined. Jeremiah: Absolutely. Julia: Yeah. Minor entwined but in a different way. Catherine when we were interviewing you, you had mentioned something that I could relate to which is the socialization for women to be some sort of caretakers within.fundamentalist, and other evangelical circles. Being a therapist is very much a nurturing type of career. The other career options I had considered were [00:06:00] teaching and nursing, also stereotypically nurturing, stereotypically associated with Christianity. So, I don't know if I would have become a therapist.Had I not grown up in the environment that I did. What a question, right? Right! Ultimately, I love it most of the time, but sex therapy was deeply connected to my deconstruction process. I got married young, at the age of 22. I am divorced and when I got married my world crumbled because I had learned that getting married, getting married young was a rite of passage into adulthood, would be the sign of my worth as a human being, and would ultimately be the way that I could access the sexuality that had been denied to me.And when I got married and I hated sex, when I got married and I didn't experience the desire from my husband that I was told would be [00:07:00] present all the time, because all men ever think about is sex, which I'm sure we'll come back to in this episode. My sense of identity shattered. My sense of identity was always in my purity as a woman, in my ability to perform my gender role, and in being a desirable person, particularly sexually.So I became very distressed and my first years married were awful for me, even though I didn't understand exactly what was happening. Yeah. I did, two years after getting married, find a phenomenal sex therapist in Boston. I will always give Nancy McGrath a huge amount of credit for my individual and relational growth.She was an amazing sex therapist, an amazing couples therapist. And my ex husband and I made a lot of progress, even though we did choose to get married. And just to get divorced. Yes. Yes. Even though my ex husband and I choose to got [00:08:00] divorced, choose to get divorced. And as I was continuing to grow, as I was continuing to heal, my therapist said, I was already a practicing therapist.She said, if you decided to become a sex therapist, you would be a great sex therapist. And that was such an affirming and healing moment for me in my sex therapy training. I admitted to myself and my therapist for the first time that I didn't want to be married. And so sex therapy training was really like the last Jenga piece that caused the tower to shatter.I wasn't an active member of a religious community when I participated in sex therapy training, but I still was. Connected to the religious world. And I was still married to my ex husband. And because I was married to a Christian man, I had status in my family system and I had status in all kinds of other systems.And then I lost my status within my family. [00:09:00] I lost my status within my community. My divorce was fodder for gossip at a funeral and becoming a sex therapist and ultimately getting divorced was what broke my connection to that world. Katherine: Woo! Goodness. Goodness. So this is somewhat of a rhetorical question that I know the answer to, but I still want to hear your answer.How interconnected is sex? To personhood and relational dynamics itself. How often do you see that connection? Jeremiah: Strongly. Strongly. Well, so, so there's two, two categories of that. In religious communities, absolutely strongly. We, we could talk maybe about the, the, the professional kind of non religious universal relationship about that later, but in the religious context very strongly, Julia: yeah.And I would say outside of religious contexts, [00:10:00] yes, but in a different way. So, when my, when I say that my sense of self crumbled after getting married, a big piece of that was sexuality. And so... I will sometimes have folks come to sex therapy in similar positions as me, and the couple might say something like, but it's just sex, and we still love each other, and I have a good life in all these kinds of ways, but it's not just sex for anyone.Sex is never just sex for anyone, but especially if you grow up in an adverse or religiously abusive context, sex is actually everything. And I'm not joking when I say everything. So if you get married and sex is painful physically or emotionally or relationally, that can have massive consequences in all areas of your life.Katherine: Right. Mm. So when you are a sex therapist and folks come to you for difficulties and [00:11:00] challenges within their sex life, very regularly, there's more happening and in their lives and in their relationships. Absolutely. Jeremiah: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so there's a couple of things that, that come up one. Sex isn't talked about in a lot of, in a lot of couples, obviously it's not talked about at all in religious couples.Sex with each other, like they don't talk about it. That's right, that's right. Yes, yes, the church talks a lot a lot about sex. But the church doesn't give partners the tools or the skills to be able to talk about sexuality with each other. And if they do it's almost exclusively from the perspective of quantity, meaning how much do you want to have it?Yes. And from the perspective of performing gender roles where men are expected to have high volumes of sexual desire, interest, and women are expected to be asexual yet to conform to the, the needs of male partners.[00:12:00] The second way that, that this shows up is around just in, in general,, if a couple doesn't have the skills and resources to talk about sexuality, what else do they not have the skills and resources to talk about?Katherine: Right. Julia: Yeah. A whole lot of other things. That's right. Money, or child rearing, or household management. How to Jeremiah: deal with families of origin. So a lot of stuff gets avoided, and there's a lot of conflict avoidance that we find. And the second thing is that for the couples who are able to talk about sex and sexuality, there's a lot of variance regarding sex.Sex can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Culturally speaking, sex is often thought of as a euphemism for intercourse. Julia: Vaginally penetrative intercourse. That is Jeremiah: correct. Yes. But what Julia, you and I talk about is that there's a lot of different ways that bodies can connect.Sometimes [00:13:00] involving a vaginal intercourse, sometimes not involving vaginal intercourse. Let's talk about all of it and let's talk about all of it from the perspective of like what kinds of touch do you want? And then also, how do you want that touch to happen? How do you, what do you need before your body gets the touch that it wants?There's a lot of different variables that Julia, you and I talk about, and that's on an individual level. And in couple therapy, of course, there's two people. So the ways that I go about sex are going to be different Julie from the ways that you go about sex. And, and then the work is, is how do we then make how do we make arrangements?How do we make agreements about? How to do sex, how to do anything, but for the sake of this conversation, how to do sex in a pleasurable, in a pleasurable way for both people. Yeah. Katherine: Yeah. So many, I'm like, as y'all are talking, I'm like, question, question, question, question, question, question. I Julia: know, that happens to me too.I was telling Jeremiah after our interview with [00:14:00] you and we took a bathroom break, I was like, I had 20 more questions to ask for Katherine: each episode. Well that just means that we have a podcasting relationship and we will do more episodes together in the future. This is the one, one, one, one interview I've already decided five minutes in.One interview is not enough. But one of the things that I wanted to focus on for this specific, this specific episode there is so much, and this is even just for me personally so much, uploaded A literature right now about how purity culture impacts women and women in relationships and what that does to marriages and dating and recovery after purity culture.I this is just, you know, a regular topic of conversation with my between myself and my peers. I was in a, I'm in a, like a [00:15:00] sort of deconstruction group. I call us the Renegades. And we met a couple Saturday nights ago and everyone's at different phases in their, their deconstruction.They're also at different phases in their sexuality and their sexuality exploration. And I just asked them just like a very, like, simple question of like, what would have been different? If you had been raised with like the full gamut of the feast in front of you and like that was the class that you got in Sunday school, as opposed to don't have sex.And then that's the end of it. And then also just for the subject of our conversation too, I asked them very specifically about what, so in evangelicalism, It's cisgender binaries of male and female, and you and there's no other category. And so I asked them very specifically, how did that impact you and this was all people who these are all [00:16:00] people who identify as, as, as female, and then how intricately connected that binary that gender binary is to this messaging.And so a question for you all when you meet with couples that come out of evangelicalism, what role does that binary play? In your conversations and, and for good or ill. Jeremiah: Sure. I'll start. And then I'm curious about how you'd answer that too. Again, a lot of folks coming out of evangelical systems don't have the relationship skills of the negotiation skills to figure out how to navigate one, how to navigate differences and to how to make decisions about a relationship based on their own preferences.So in the absence of that, they rely on gender roles. They rely on the performance of gender roles to [00:17:00] create expectations for, say, how administration gets done, how sex gets done, how parenting gets done, and there's a lot of resentment that is, that is there because Even though these things, these positions were assumed there weren't overt conversations about how to how to enact these you know, women and men both, like, they, they don't make verbal agreements to each other in the, in these contexts about Well, hey as, as a female partner, I absolutely want to do this particular thing as a male partner.I absolutely want to do these things. It's you should do these things. Yes. And any conversation that happens centers around the should. Like you Katherine: should do these things, not I would prefer that I do. That's right. Okay. Right. Absolutely. So one of the Jeremiah: things, Julia, you and I do with with regards to the binary is we do whatever we can to get rid of it.Katherine: I love that. Jeremiah: Yeah, [00:18:00] how would you answer that? I would Julia: agree with that. I'm sure that I'll have more to say as Katherine keeps asking questions, but the first part is recognizing What we learned about gender and how that has then impacted the relationship and what are the structures and systems and patterns that the couple falls back to.And if anyone has ever gone sledding in the winter, you know that once you've got a path that's slick, it's really hard to set a new path. So even if, like Jeremiah said, the gender roles are causing some resentment. I imagine that my ex husband probably developed some resentment around what gender role looked like for him.I had my own resentment around what that looked like for me. We didn't get ahead of the resentment by talking about it and negotiating it until it was too late. And even though that wasn't working for either one of us, it [00:19:00] was like a very slick... path down a sledding hill. And if you want something different, you've got to take that sled, move it to a new part of the hill, put it in snow that hasn't been down, and you've got to do a lot of hard work to create a new path that works.Katherine: Yes, absolutely. And it sounds like from both of your stories that sometimes that new path is a new relationship. Julia: Yes. Jeremiah: Sometimes. In our case, yes. Julia: Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. Sometimes it is a new relationship. Sometimes it is hard work with a current partner. And sometimes it is... Being a person who is partnered with multiple people or being a person who is dating and not partnered.Mm-Hmm. So it can look all different kinds of ways. When we talk about our podcast having a relational bent what we mean is that we live in relationships with all kinds of people. Mm-Hmm. That might mean [00:20:00] starting a new path on a new hill and your family's on another hill and they're like, you abandoned us.Katherine: What's going on? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. No, I love that. I love that. And that, that expands sexuality and relationships in general, because even, even if you have this dynamic within this couple, like our sexuality impacts how we interact with everyone. It's not just our intimate partner. And I've really enjoyed it.My. deconstruction journey, learning about that because it just expands possibilities and, and just, it makes it just beautiful and vibrant. And like, there's so much here and, and so very sad and also very angry at how narrow. The teaching that I received was and how very specific and gendered it was and, so sad.And then also just like, it's a [00:21:00] fucking lie. And yet. The we'll get in all of this, but just like the, the, the conservative agenda behind that lie and unpacking that as well. And, and having that just opportunity to grieve the opportunities that I was denied. And I know that's a part of me.So many people's journeys of just like grieve, grieving this, this loss that happened. How did that play out for both of you? Julia: The grief part or a different Katherine: part? Great. Yeah. Just the grieving. If, if that was a part of your journey. Jeremiah: Oh, I think it still is a part of our journey. Yeah. I think you and I both make reference.I'm trying to remember the last time you and I both made references to our former partners. It's been within the last week. . And, and reflecting about the sadness of, of, of painful things that, that we received. Even painful things that we said missed [00:22:00] opportunities. Mm-Hmm. To to explore and, and to have conversations that, that we didn't get the chance to have.Mm-Hmm. that the church didn't want us to have. Mm-Hmm. . So, yeah. Yeah, that comes up quite a bit. Yeah. Julia: I I haven't even mentioned this to Jeremiah yet, but. Something that I say when I talk about getting divorced is that my ex husband is a really phenomenal human being. And I am, I am sad that the education neither of us received, probably to a large, large part, impacted our decision to get divorced.I am rarely on social media because it is too overwhelming for me. However, I saw that my ex husband recently celebrated his two year anniversary to his new wife. And I imagine that he is an even better partner, probably, than he was with me. Not because he wasn't a good partner to me, [00:23:00] but because he has had life to grow and evolve and learn.And... I am very happy that he is in a partnership that seems to be really beautiful for him. And I am still, I'm still really sad. I'm sad that that relationship ended. I'm sad about the ways that I contributed to hurt. I am sad about the ways that I was hurt. And I know that I will probably think about my ex spouse to some degree.Daily or often for the rest of my life. Katherine: Yeah. Yeah. Because it, it, it doesn't just go away. Deca, deconstructing and rewiring those sled paths. It's not just a, like a one and done thing. Right. Jeremiah: Well, and it also happens while Julia, you and I are also figuring out our relationship and experiencing these really beautiful [00:24:00] moments that we have.And. Kind of hashing out how we want to do different things. Grief doesn't happen in this, like, process where you take a pause from life and you go off and, and, and you grieve for an extended amount of time. Like, grief happens in the midst of these concurrent processes that, that are happening in a person's life.And, and that, that makes it even more Julia: challenging. Yeah. And I can't grieve the end of my marriage without ultimately grieving The systems that raised me, the systems that conditioned if conditioned early marriage, the systems that taught me about what dating and marriage looked like. So whenever I consider my ex husband, whenever I consider the pain or the joy that we experienced, I, I'm unable to separate that from the lack of relational and sexual health education.From the religious systems in my life. Yes. [00:25:00] Yes. Katherine: And how just so entwined those two things are and and just the reality of like those, those indentions in the snow are going to be so much more defined when it's coming from. religious space. This is what God wants from you. This is what requires from you.And then everything in that system upholds that and supports it. And these things are very deeply embedded into us and is the soup that we swim in. And so I'm really excited to just get into some practical stuff and maybe provide a little bit of a resource for folks. I would like to concentrate our our conversation on specifically.How purity culture impacts men in, in these relationships. And I, I will, we'll, we'll just start with the, with the. Typical trajectory. How, how does does purity culture show up and impact men in dating relationships? Julia: Yeah, [00:26:00] something that I say on almost every podcast is that one of the biggest double binds or mind fucks that men experience in evangelical and other Christian cultures is that they are They're sexual aggressors, and that is the way that God made them, and they are supposed to, they should lean into that, and at the same time, that is part of their evil base nature, and they have to fight it.Mm hmm. That is. An impossible, impossible place to live to be told that you've got to lean in and embrace this, but that also this is the most debased part of who you are and that shows up in a myriad of contexts. Katherine: Do you feel like. Men tend to migrate towards one or the [00:27:00] other because of that double bind.Julia: That's a good question. Good question. I would say that I've noticed men... Jeremiah: I have a Julia: way of answering that. I've got an idea, but you go first because I'm still formulating it. Jeremiah: I would say that... Men who are interested in men who are interested in kind of reinforcing the gender hierarchies tend to lean more into kind of the Kind of the ownership of sexuality and, and then also the conflict in that, that, that can come from fromadvocating for that. I would say that men who want more egalitarian relationships. Especially in, in opposite sex context. I think that those are men who tend to struggle with that that the double bind Julia, that you're referring to a little bit [00:28:00] more and as a result 10, those relationships tend to have a little bit more avoidance to them.That's anecdotal. I don't know if that, I don't have any research to support that. I would Julia: say my anecdotal experience is mostly similar and I really appreciate the theme of this episode because I, I work with a lot of couples, but I also, for probably lots of different reasons, have many individual male clients between the ages of like 25 to 37.So we talk about this. a lot. And the really challenging part is that the gender binaries that we've described means that the misogyny reinforces the, or the, sorry, the the misandry towards men that they are sexual monsters that reinforces the misogyny and the sexism. And [00:29:00] then the misogyny continues to perpetuate this patriarchal pattern.Which is such an awful systemic issue. Yeah. Yeah. And so often the misandry and the misogyny are just like fucking having this orgasm together. Sadly. What Jeremiah: is the image of the orgasm? Like Katherine: they're feeding each other. Yeah. Satisfying Julia: each other. Right, and so I absolutely want to keep on the topic that you're describing, and I've been reflecting quite a bit on like specific impacts for men, and I think we have to still acknowledge at the beginning that all of the negative consequences towards men Still continue to hurt the entire relational structure and still continue to [00:30:00] prop up the, the sexist and misogynist norms of the patriarchy.Jeremiah: Can I give an example about that that doesn't involve sex? Sure, yeah, yeah. So, I'm seven and Enneagram? No, no, no. Age 7. Enneagram 3. Oh, Katherine: okay. Oh, oh, sorry. You're about to tell a story. Yes. Started when you were 7. Jeremiah: Yes, yes. So, I'm 7 years old. Julia: I knew where that was going, but it was confusing. Jeremiah: I'm 7 years old.And I am at a part of of a Bible study that a few of my families do on Wednesday nights, because heaven forbid, we don't have some sort of a church service two to three times a week. And at this particular group from time to time, I would be I would be the only boy that was there, only penis owner that was there.So my dad had to work or that was at least his excuse for, for not showing up. [00:31:00] I made a similar excuse. So some of the other men had to, had to work. So it was the mom's wives all the kids were little girls and me. And so at seven, I remember the women in the church and this group saying, it's a devotional time at Jeremiah because you're the boy you have to lead the songs.Okay. So little seven year old me like leads a song. Can you do an example of your accent? Oh, so I grew up in Texas. I had a. Thick southern accents, very flat vowels. My name had three syllables on it. Sometimes it had two syllables, Jerma. But, then they say, okay, well, you have to leave the scripture.You have to lead the prayer. And, you know, I know that I am not the only boy who has been in that [00:32:00] experience who learned early on that, that men and women look to boys to provide quote leadership and running shit. And that's something that is still to this day, something that. I, I make the assumption that people will look to me.Men and women will look to me to run things. I step into leadership roles and, and a lot of my healing work has been giving myself permission to, to, to step out of that. And, and, and I'm good at it. I, I think that I have I enjoy being in control more than I think sometimes I would like to admit, I've also taught you and I've both actually taught Julia with plenty of men who have had similar experiences and don't want any part of that.Yeah. Right. And, and play those roles both out of a sense of obligation to the system and also do so in a way that's antithetical to their own personality traits and to their preferences. They'd much rather play a more passive role, just kind of sit [00:33:00] back, kind of watch the world kind of do its thing.And, and, and they don't know what to do. We actually had an interview quite recently on our podcast with, with a couple of men actually for, for whom that was true. So yeah, so, so the expectation then that men are not just like sexual monsters or sexual initiators, but are initiators of any kind of process with, with the exception of domestic administrative processes, which is a whole other conversation we can get into in a bit.Except for cooking and cleaning. Yeah, right. And mending the stockings. Right, right. But yeah, that's, that's, that's a lot of pressure. That is a lot of pressure. That, that men get put on and it also, it also discourages men from moving into collaborative spaces. Hmm. This is something you and I actually Katherine: May I, may I pause here for just one [00:34:00] moment because one of the things that I have noticed in this, in the space that I work in the spiritual abuse realm.Is that same thing we were talking about a podcast earlier, talking on our interview earlier about art and being ingrained with this mistrust of art. I also believe men get ingrained with this mistrust of women and how I, my work is predominantly women coming to me one because women are. You know, it's more acceptable for women to look for help and to want to collaborate one.And then two, it's a woman run organization, like we have one male board member, but other than that, like, it is run by women, and they're not going to migrate. And I know this because I watched them migrate to the Wade Mullins and the other male leaders and and not migrate to the women, because it's still just [00:35:00] ingrained into.The physique. Yeah, Jeremiah: I actually think that Catherine that that's another double bind is that I agree with you that men that that this system that we're talking about you know, where Men are expected to be in leadership positions. Women from time to time reinforce that. And there's also plenty of women that are like, Hey, no, this doesn't work for me.And then figuring out how to navigate those differences. I think that that's right, that that there are a lot of men who mistrust women and simultaneously. I don't think that men really trust men any better either. And I think that this is actually true, Julie, with what you're talking about with your, your clients.Men are much more likely to seek an individual female sex therapist for individual therapy than they are to seek an individual male for individual therapy. Julia: Really? Absolutely. But, but I want to qualify something that you said. I think you said that [00:36:00] men are equally less likely to trust other men. I would say men.might be unwilling to trust men when it comes to kind of emotional issues because men are far more likely to trust men in more stereotypical leadership positions. But in terms of like the caretaking therapy to some degree has a caretaking element to it. And so I think that men Are uncomfortable talking about sex in general.Many people are. That's not a misandrist comment. And I think it can be easier for individual men to talk to a woman about sex than a man. I don't know if seeking a female therapist for couples or family therapy is as oriented. Not for couples and family therapy. But I think that. They're going to go Katherine: to a man.Julia: Right. Because, because, because of what you're describing, Catherine, around like trusting men in these [00:37:00] forward facing leadership positions in a family or couples therapy is more forward facing, so men are more quote unquote reliable. But if it's an individual context in which. There's the assumption that emotional nurture might be more a part of it.I think that men could be more prone to seeking a woman, just to seek a woman. But all of this goes back to Catherine, exactly what you're describing around men needing to be in over leadership positions. And Jeremiah, you use the word passive growing up in my community. Passive was used as derogatory.Yeah. And that a passive man was not a man. Right. So books like Wild at Heart and pour into my community every man Battle to fight, beauty to save. Yeah. Yeah. Every everyman's battle was popular in my community and it was all about, [00:38:00] men being assertive at best, aggressive, dominant, violent at worst, and I'm even thinking about, like, my dad, and my dad is not a particularly dominant person.If my parents were out of their religious system, I would probably ask my dad what that was like because I wonder if it was really hard to be in a system in which you were told that you had to be so overtly dominant when that wasn't part of your nature. Katherine: Yeah, I'm thinking about the women that I met with.That I referred to earlier and, and they just said how most of their relationships sort of defaulted into a functionally egalitarian relationship while they still espoused complimentary and they just [00:39:00] didn't tell anybody. I think Julia: that's, I think that's how my parents marriage operates. And I think that's how Jeremiah: my ex's parents.Julia: Many relationships operate. Yeah. Jeremiah: Oh, yeah. Hmm. That would be interesting to do research Julia: on. Just a clarifying Katherine: question about men seeking out a female sex therapist, more likely to seek out a female sex therapist. Is it possible that there's some shame? In that too of they're not going to talk to another man to admit that they struggle.Yes. Julia: I can give a great example. So I had a male client and I've had several iterations of this. And he came to therapy seeking help for quote unquote, erectile dysfunction. Diagnostic language around sexual health is so damaging to men and women. So I would never use that language of erectile dysfunction, but that was his language to me.That's why I'm using it. what I would say is that [00:40:00] sexuality had some challenges for him. And one of those challenges was having the erections that he wanted to have. So we tried to get away from diagnostic language as much as possible, but. He told me that it would be one of the most shaming things possible to have a conversation with another male about about sexual health in general, particularly because men learn in and outside of religious structures that part of sexual dominance is having a specific type of erection in a specific kind of way.And that is not how erections work for many, if not all people. We could have a whole con, a whole longer conversation about erections and what men learn about their penises and what they learn about erections. It might be even worthwhile later in our conversation, but [00:41:00] over time, I really encouraged this client to talk to some of his male friends about sexuality and what was working and not working for him.And one day he came into therapy and he was like, Julia. I had a conversation with one of my male friends about sex, and it was one of the most meaningful conversations that I've ever had. And If more men talked with each other about sexuality in non toxic, dominant ways, I believe that would be massively healing towards humanity in general, regardless of gender.If the shame was stopping him. Katherine: Yeah, and I just think about how... So much of the sexual conversations for men was accountability oriented and like, how are you guarding your eyes? And how are you guarding your heart? And, you know, you know, documenting how often you masturbate and all of these like [00:42:00] very shaming?So I can see that being so just so damaging for it Julia: is. And it's so it can I say one other thing about this. It's really interesting because in another conversation, the three of us talked about how the church is not as counter cultural as they think they are.But one of the main themes is this idea of like, You. In these cases, like, the humanity of women being fairly non existent, so in secular world, that means you just keep track of how many women you have sex with, and like, they are a number to you, and you want to get as high as possible, and then Catherine, what you're describing, when men are told to, you know, document how time, how many times they masturbate and then confess to another man and like not look at another woman.It's still like this idea of like women being objects. We had a conversation several podcasts [00:43:00] ago with our friends. Sarah and... Jake. Yeah. And, and Jake was describing about, you know, going to Six Flags as a youth group. And it's like, there's gonna be a lot of boobs out there.They wouldn't have said it that way. And it's like, just avoid the boobs. Like, and, and without any conversation that these are 13 to 16 year old girls. They are not walk Sets of boobs. Yeah. But whether they're children, right? Mm-Hmm. . And so, in and outside of these contexts, women are these vessels that you either have to conquer or avoid until you get married.And you have to document how you're either like dominating or avoiding Mm-hmm. in this really restrictive version of what it means to be a man. And in either context. You are essentially a sexual monster who is either dominating and giving in to the, like, desires of the flesh, or you're working really hard to, like, fight your sin nature, and that makes you a good Jeremiah: man.And we have language for [00:44:00] this. Sex addict. Right. So so Joshua Grubbs is a researcher at Bowling Green and he has produced several articles about this that the majority of men who identify as sex addicts also have a high degree of religiosity. Oh and so the idea connected is absolutely so well, and it's, and it's connected back even to like to seven year old Jeremiah too, that, that, that, that the problem must be me.I am a sexual monster as opposed to men coming together, talking together, Julia, like what you're saying. And talking about the fucked up positions that that, that the fucked up things that men learned about their bodies, the fucked up things that men learned about women's bodies and how we all want to, how we all want to do better in our own relationships, same sex relationships, opposite sex relationships, sexual relationships, non sexual [00:45:00] relationships.Yeah. And Katherine: maybe it's not a, and I feel like I've, I've approached it. What was brought into that in a little different perspective through the trauma lens of just like addiction itself, typically, or what we call addiction typically developed out of trauma and religiosity itself typically develops out of trauma and and having and having that you know, stuff ingrained into your mind. It's not like, and, and approaching it like a, a, where you like have all of these steps and you have all of these, you know, accountability things that you're supposed to do, but then you you're not addressing the stuff underneath it and the trauma that is, Jeremiah: well, and I think that that's right.And, and I think that. It's one thing to address that trauma in a professional context. I think it's a completely different thing to address that trauma in relationships with other people who've gone through a similar thing. [00:46:00] Yeah. And that's, from my perspective, that's why the relational perspective is so, it's so powerful.Mm hmm. As the capacity to help, for the sake of our conversations, kind of men get out of some of these double binds and the shame that accompanies that double bind. Mm hmm. In, in, in more meaningful, kind of longer lasting ways. Right. Julia: Right. And the language around. Addiction also focuses on behavior versus value.So, so I will always ask clients, what does sex mean, if a person is talking about sex, if a person comes in and says that they are a sexual addict, I will ask what that means. And typically they might say, Well, I masturbate or I watch pornography. And so, so we'll talk, we'll be like, okay, so let's, let's put porn on the side.Let's put masturbation on the side as a behavior. And let's talk about like what [00:47:00] the values are. I had a really interesting client, former client who was a seminarian. And and he Had reached out to me because he thought that I was a Christian sex therapist, and I explained, I said, I am not. I said, I actually am not a part of any religious communities, but I have an understanding of Christian culture so I work with a lot of folks in this area.And I think it spoke to volumes of this client that he said, Okay, I'll work with you. with you because typically working with a secular therapist, that's like scary. And it was so interesting because he had a lot of shame around masturbation and he had a lot of shame around pornography. And we had this conversation and I said, okay.Tell me about what your sexual values are without moralistic language and without behavior language. So he talked about sex being a form of connection, and he talked about sexuality being [00:48:00] sacred, and he talked about a few other values. And I said, that's so interesting. I said, huh, I actually think almost all of the values that you have.I hold two. And, and then it was the conversation around, okay, so if sex, whether it's with yourself or someone else, if it's a form of connection, like, What does that mean? How can you enact that? If sexuality on your own or with someone else is a sacred thing, like what does that mean? And I think a big piece of work for men in Christian communities is getting out of the behavior obsession, which isn't their fault.And thinking about the value moving away from the quality of an erection, moving away from whether or not you masturbate and or watch pornography and moving about, like, what are the values that you have around your bodies about gender, about women, about men, and then like rethinking what sexuality can look like.And Jeremiah: we talk about this, [00:49:00] Julia, in our series on Sex Evangelicals The Sex Education We Wish We Had in which we talk about the sexual health principles or values from the work of Doug Brown Harvey around consent, non exploitation, conversation about contraceptions and STIs, honesty, shared values, and mutual pleasure.I love it. Those are the values that we tend to start from. But also, Julia, your question, being able to ask, what are your values as well? Like that and Katherine: being able to have an opportunity to develop your own values outside of that religious. I want to go back. I want to get into those five things that you just mentioned, but I want to go back and talk about bodies for a minute.We mentioned that women's bodies were made objects and it's like you're walking instead of boobs like it was it was objectification. And that was how a woman's body was viewed and presented to [00:50:00] men. It was also how we we viewed our own race to kind of your own body is of just like cover up cover up cover up and that was literally cover up cover up cover up and then.Here's how you use a tampon on your period. And like, that was literally it. And so for men, what are the messages about their bodies that they receive in these communities? Jeremiah: Men are machines. And, and, and this is both within Christian context and in larger capitalist contexts that men are machines that men are, that all men think about is sex.That sex is the number one most important thing and that that's what being a good man is about. And that men are meant to compete. Yeah. Mm. And, and compete with other men and also compete with women. Yeah. I, I would argue that ultimately misogyny is a A misappropriation of competition between men [00:51:00] and women as opposed to men taking that energy around some of the injustices that they experience and taking it back to like the larger political and social systems that put them into shit situations.Yeah. Julia: It's interesting, Jeremiah, because some of, I don't, I agree with everything that you said. some of what you said isn't necessarily inherent to bodies. Sure. It's about, you know, competition, for example, you use your bodies to compete, but that's more of a concept, I guess. And so I suppose, and I'd be curious.To hear how the two of you experience this similarly or differently, there wasn't a lot said about the bodies of men in my communities. And when I work with couples, especially hetero couples, women have a lot to say about their bodies and what they learned about their bodies. Men have much less to say about their bodies, at least anecdotally.And what they do say about their bodies does tend to [00:52:00] revolve around their penises. And I would say that's more from secular culture than religious culture. Although, as we've discussed, both of those things overlap. Actually I'm going to walk that back. The church doesn't talk about erections explicitly.Implicitly, there's a lot about erections. So if you edit it, you can edit that how you will. But yes, women have a lot. About their bodies that they learn that they can communicate men don't learn as much about their bodies. I Jeremiah: agree. Katherine: Yeah, and it makes me think that like what women learn about their bodies is typically oriented around a man.Or oriented around the reproductive system and having babies, men don't, don't quote unquote need their body for those things. Like they don't, they're conditioned. I don't need my body other than to protect.[00:53:00] Yeah. Yeah. And, and I remember reading this like super toxic book and the fundamentalist world about why like women need to like submit to men because like women have more power to have Babies. And so if men don't have that power, then they're going to turn into an animal. So they need like the woman to like, keep them from turning into the monster.Because the woman has this like special power and like birthing babies, very, very toxic book yet. That's it. That's kind of like it in a nutshell Jeremiah: of and that's what that's that's also a Christian relationship literature in a nutshell. Yeah, I can think of like 13 other metaphors that describe like the very similar process that you were just describing Catherine, Julia: right?Well, in going back to the erection piece, and clearly that's on my mind a lot today. When men learn that all they want is [00:54:00] sex, they, the the When they're told that's all they want. Yes, yes, yes, yes. When they are told all they want is sex. Yes. Which, when often they don't that does have some implicit Implications for for the penis and for needing to be physiologically aroused right away.And so sometimes other men will come in and talk about erectile dysfunction and I'll say, Oh, so you didn't get an erection in 30 seconds of making out or so you had sex with a partner for a longer period of time. And at one point. You lost your erection. Like, where did you learn that that's erectile dysfunction?Mm hmm. Actually, that's like very normative. Right. Functioning as a human being. But I will say that even though men don't learn as much about their bodies inherently, the implications about their bodies to [00:55:00] sexuality are pretty strong. And revolve Jeremiah: around the mythology around the penis. Yeah, yeah, yeah.Katherine: Whoa. So, what, what does a man do when they're no longer, like, The penis is not the only thing about them, like where, where does, where does the conversation go? How did they become like a full whole integrated human being? When their penis is no longer the center of their life. Well, Jeremiah: and that gets back to what I was trying to explain a little bit earlier about.I think the answer to that question is different. If a man is interested in reproducing complementarian gender hierarchical systems. I think men in those systems with with those needs have no idea what to do and have these existential crises, either over longer periods of time or in these like short term outbursts, types of [00:56:00] control behaviors.I think men that want. And strive for a more egalitarian context and opposite sex partnerships may have a little bit of an easier time exploring different ways of you know, providing, providing touch engaging in pleasure that, that don't involve, that don't center around their penises. It can Julia: come with some relief.Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. I'm thinking about some couples that Jeremiah: I've worked with. I've experienced that personally speaking. Julia: Oh, so. Is that okay that I asked him? You're the interviewer. I'm just very curious. No, I am Katherine: too. I was coming. I was coming right behind you. Jeremiah: No, Julia. I think, I think that I think that that's one of the sources of freedom that I've experienced in our relationship too.Like, like I I've shared with you some anxieties that I have around my penis and you've, you've said, Oh, well, that's silly. I don't think that most women don't think that I'm like, Oh, you're right. Oh, the research supports what you're saying. Also, like, I want a more collaborative relationship. I want to be a more collaborative person than, than I was in, in [00:57:00] my marriage.And so, yeah, I think I've been, I think a sense of relief is, is absolutely correct. I've experienced a lot of that regarding regarding sexuality regarding a lot of elements of our relationship. Very Katherine: cool. I'm such a great partner. You guys are Jeremiah: the real MVP of this operation. Katherine: Ah, I love, I love that. Segueing into some of your, your five, your five things.And also because this was probably one of the first episodes I listened to from, From you all. And I learned a lot about it. The message of consent, which I never learned until like very, very recently within the past few years and, and have friends. Who were married very young, and are now, you know, divorced and exploring things outside of it and I am having to teach them about consent, because it [00:58:00] was never a part of their upbringing, either and like, No, actually what that man just did to you was, was not consent and like sending them the YouTube video about the tea and tea and consent, tea and consent and like, you are allowed to say, No, and they should be looking for an enthusiastic.Yes. And, and how does that, I know how that like shows up for women and what, and the impact that that has on women, what is the impact that that has on men in sexuality? Well, Jeremiah: first of all, consent is a relational process. Consent is a dialogue. And part of. The narratives of masculinity is that men by being the gender and opposite sex couples by being the gender that has a higher quote sex drive should also be the initiators and that [00:59:00] initiation is so if, if initiation is expected by men If initiation is accepted to be done by men, if there's an assumption that men have higher sex drives, that women don't have high sex drives like this is setting up a recipe for some really harmful sexual experiences both in terms of, of.emotional damage that can happen through a lack of communication, lack of overt consent, and also through significant emotional, physical, psychological damage from men who overtly exploit that to abuse women. So I would, I, I, I would start there that I talked on the podcast about what happened when I in my sex therapy training, the first class that we took was around the, the six sexual health principles that I mentioned and, and, and about consent and my response leaving that was, oh, fuck, I [01:00:00] am 33 years old.I have never had this conversation and I have been. engaged in a 14 year sexual relationship that has not been particularly dialogical. Yeah. And there's reasons for that that we can talk about maybe in another context, but, but, but part of that is rooted in these expectations that both my partner and I had that, or my ex and I had that, I am the one that has a higher sex drive that it should be initiating sex.And, and, and my partner as, as a woman should be the recipient and, and, and even be even be asexual. And so according to that, I have conversations which is super, super damaging. And so I had, I came back. From a class. I talked with my ex about this. Hey, we need to talk. I am so sorry that we have been having these experiences.I want to do this differently. I'd love to figure out a way to talk to you [01:01:00] about this and my ex, who is also like steeped up in, in much more of a similar experience religious experience to Julia growing up, growing up in the Baptist church than, than I was. Her response was, Oh, it's no big deal.Thank you. Which threw me for a loop and looking back on this now, like recognizing how entrenched she still was. Yeah. In these expectations about what men do and what women do. Katherine: And it was just normal, so normal for her. She had no concept or idea of anything else. That's right. Julia: Yeah. That's bad. Well and I'm not saying bad in a that is not bad in a blaming way towards anyone.That is a bad system for all of us to have learned from, you know, this is super sad. So I've had [01:02:00] experiences in which like men have abused me sexually in an exploitive way. And that is a really awful experience. And then I've had experiences, perhaps more similar to what you're describing, Jeremiah. In which the abuse of, or the the non consensual experience is not necessarily abusive.Non consent can absolutely be abusive and I've experienced that. Or non consent can exist when a couple doesn't have relational tools to navigate consent. So I had a diagnosis of vaginismus and vulvodynia, which means essentially painful intercourse and the constriction of the vaginal muscles. Deeply connected to...Evangelicalism so I'm hesitant to use that diagnostic language, but that was what I experienced, which means that sex was often painful. And when I got married my husband and I would sometimes have these sexual experiences that were very, very physically painful. And my ex husband, who is a good human being, saw that I [01:03:00] was in pain, and he had this terrible choice in which he could stop the sexual experience because he didn't want to see his partner in pain or be any part of inflicting that.However, if he chose to stop the sexual experience, that would also communicate to me as the woman in this. situation that I was not desirable. And so sometimes he would initiate stopping the sexual experience. And I would sometimes say, no, no, no, keep going. Because for me, that was my only way of proving my worth as a human being.And so I could also have the opportunity to say, yes, let's stop this experience and save myself from the pain. Or I could power through the pain. And so both of us were stuck in these really terrible dynamics, which the experience was not consensual, right? Right. Not consensual because I was clearly in a huge amount of physical distress and emotional distress.[01:04:00] However, From my perspective, that wasn't an abusive, non consensual experience, and I think the assumption that non consent is always abusive keeps us from having these dialogues because there is so much shame associated with it. Katherine: That's right. Right, right. And I think that was something that I learned from y'all's episode about just because it's non consensual doesn't equal marital rape.And I think that that is a new, a new a new phrase. Phrase. Simple. Right. That we're, we're more acquainted with. And, and I, and I love, thank you so much for sharing your example, Julia, because It was like you both were consenting to play roles. So there was consent. You didn't necessarily, you didn't know there was anything different, you know, like, yeah, it wasn't that he, you were saying, no, I don't want this.And then he was forcing [01:05:00] still, that's a very different dynamic. We both have these roles to play. And we're both just playing Julia: and we're performing our genders and we didn't know that we could consent out of it. And sadly, I've had the experiences that you're describing in which a sexual experience was forced due to an abuse of power.And, and that's a different, that's a different kind of experience. Both are painful, both are harmful. But I think we have to have more nuanced dialogue around consent. Katherine: Absolutely. Yeah. And then, and then just, Oof. And then like your story, Jeremiah, of like recognizing that this had never happened, like, and it wasn't in an effort to, to dominate, it was in an effort to play the role that you were told.Jeremiah: Right. Right. Yeah. Right. And, and, and just to kind of build on [01:06:00] that, that yeah, like our earliest sexual experiences with my ex, yeah. Were they almost all ended with panic attacks. With my ex wife having a panic attack, and, did you Katherine: correlate it with what had just happened? Or did you think it was completely separate?I had Jeremiah: no idea what was going on. I didn't have the language for it. I just knew that there was a sexual experience for something I wanted, something I thought she wanted. And the panic attacks, obviously like shut down the experience. It, it it heightened my own desire to move into like protective spaces.And, and so I learned that initiating conversations about sex that had the capacity to bring that that, that, that kind of pain. So, so not just on a, on a, on a physical level, Julia, what you're talking about, but on a dialogical level. Sure, sure. Both. Yeah. Yeah. So. Katherine: If this is too much information, you're, I will cut it from the episode, but were, [01:07:00] was, were your first sexual experiences in marriage?Jeremiah: Depends on what you mean by sexual experience. Let's, Katherine: let's, let's play the, the Jeremiah: marital relationship was my first experience with intercourse. Got Julia: it. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And Yeah. I think the question is relevant in the sense that that meant a following of purity culture rules because the church defines sexuality by vaginally penetrative intercourse.I think that language is so harmful because it I think that eliminates any other kinds of sexual experiences that are, that are just as, as valid and Jeremiah: just as enjoyable. Katherine: Yeah. And, and building that connection and intimacy as you were, you were talking about earlier as [01:08:00] a way of just wrapping up the episode, we've talked a little bit about this and you have shared some really great insights into the healing processes.That you have both been through and then also clients but what are some just like stepping stones and, and, and starting places for like men listening to this episode of just like how to integrate and be that whole human. And then for women who might be in that hetero cisgender relationship on on what they can like how to just kind of navigate.Potentially very brand new things that they may have learned in this episode. We can start with the men. Jeremiah: I'm also thinking about stepping stones. I think first things first, we have to start thinking about sex in ways that go beyond vaginal intercourse. That sex is the way that the ways that two bodies interact with each other in a way that creates [01:09:00] some sort of, some sort of physical pleasure.And thinking then about, well, what are the diversity of ways in, in, in, in which that happens for me what are the types of what are the types of touch that I like? Well, what are ways that I can have pleasure that, that, that don't involve touch and, and that can, that can either for myself and, and that are also relational so I think that.Thinking about stepping stones, I think that that's an important stepping stone to acknowledge that sex is not a reduction to our penises that sex involves the totality of our bodies. Yeah. Julia: I would say that learning to talk about... Sex is probably one of the stepping stones, and that's really difficult if you've never had any models for talking about sexuality. In our episode with you when we interviewed you for our podcast, you mentioned the [01:10:00] challenge of Well, how do you find a voice after leaving a religious community when you never developed one, right?And so I recognize that even, I suppose, this stepping stone is a complicated one because that would require a person or a couple or a group to step up. to create a new roadmap or to start a new pathway down this sledding hill. Maybe having some questions could be helpful. So asking a partner or a friend or someone you trust who you believe could have this dialogue with you in a meaningful way to say, you know, what did you learn about your gender growing up.What did it mean to be a man in your church? That might be a helpful first step, because it can also test out the water a little bit. Talking about what you learned is potentially vulnerable, but you're still [01:11:00] talking about something outside of yourself to a degree. And so being able to talk with someone about what that meant and what about that might've been difficult you know, to go there if, if, if the first part of that conversation goes well.Yeah. Katherine: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just getting, just getting comfortable with like just understanding the messages. Yeah. You received. Yes. It's hard though. It's hard work. Listen to sexvangelicals. Julia: That's right. You can listen to our podcast. Jeremiah: Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, Katherine: wherever you get your podcasts. Well, this has been very informative and also feels like the beginning of a conversation and there's just so much more to explore.Just, yeah, through this lens, but I really appreciate you providing that extra perspective[01:12:00] just because. In the purity culture conversation, it tends to center around the woman's experience. And, and it, and as we know, patriarchy doesn't just impact women, it impacts everyone. Julia: Right, right. And I think that one of the messages about purity culture is that women are the gatekeepers to sexuality.And that's something that's damaging to women, but it damages men because it erases their ability to describe Their experiences in, in their own ways , Katherine: And, and almost eliminates their agency Julia: within it. Absolutely. Absolutely. Of course. Katherine: Yeah. Well, this has been great. As we, as we wrap up , share where folks can interact with you.And then are you, are you all taking. Taking clients or do we have a full docket at the moment? Julia: They can reach out Jeremiah: to us and reach out to us. Yeah. So for more information about working with us, we're in, in the early stages of getting some coaching processes together.[01:13:00] Sex evangelicals at gmail.com. We're also on Instagram and threads at sex evangelicals. And then we also have a subsect that goes out two or three times a week called relationship 101, which you can find at sex evangelicals. subsect. com. That's super Katherine: easy and super simple. I love it. Appreciate y'all.

Christian colleges often tout their illustrious alumni who accomplish great things in the christian world. Jeremiah and Julia won't likely be listed in such lists for Abilene Christian or Calvin college. That's because they are licensed sex therapists who promote sexual wellbeing in all of its forms. Their podcast, the Sexvangelicals, is a great look into unpacking religious trauam when it comes to sex and sexuality, and a resource for people looking to expand their understanding of sex and sexuality. Here they talk about their religious backgrounds and how they found their way out to do the very important work they do today. In the conversation, Soulforce comes up, so here's the episode with AE Scott who went on the early bus rides and helped form the community that would become Haven at APU. Chapel Probation is part of the ⁠⁠⁠⁠Dauntless Media Collective⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the ⁠⁠⁠⁠Dauntless Media Discord ⁠⁠⁠⁠for more conversation with all the podcast communities. Scott's book, ⁠⁠⁠⁠Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University⁠⁠⁠⁠ is available now! Music by Scott Okamoto, ⁠⁠⁠⁠Jenyi⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠Azeem Khan⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠Shin Kawasaki⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠Wingo Shackleford⁠⁠⁠⁠ Join the ⁠⁠⁠⁠Chapel Probation Patreon ⁠⁠⁠⁠ to support Scott and for bonus content.  Join the ⁠⁠⁠⁠Chapel Probation Facebook⁠⁠⁠⁠ group to continue the conversations. Follow Scott on ⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠Twitter⁠⁠⁠⁠ and ⁠⁠⁠⁠Substack⁠⁠⁠⁠ You can subscribe to Scott's newsletter and learn more about the book, the blog, and performances at ⁠⁠⁠⁠rscottokamoto.com⁠ --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/scott-okamoto/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/scott-okamoto/support

“Romantic comedies and chick lit reflect messages that are prevalent in both secular culture and religious spaces. Although Christian spaces give lots of lip service to being counter cultural, they usually repackage the same message from popular culture with a different wrapping paper.” We continue our mini-series Let's Kick Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse, with Katherine Spearing, co-founder of Tears of Eden and author of Hartfords, a historical romantic comedy. Katherine talks with us about how literature can often reinforce some of the rigid, unhelpful ideas about gender and relationships, and how writing Hartfords positively impacted her own healing process. Join us as we explore:    Chiclit and Romcoms (2:00) Jane Austen and Subtle Messaging (6:00) The Fear of Art Within the Church (16:00) Art as a Means of Survival (21:00) Psychology, Art, and the Church (26:00) Rom Coms and the Church (31:00) Friendship within Hartfords (35:00) The Power of the Pen (40:00) Deconstruction and Hartfords (45:00) Healing (59:00) Check out Episode #54: Kicking Off the New Year with Spiritual Abuse: How Romantic Comedies Can Reinforce the Worst Parts of Evangelical Culture, with Katherine Spearing on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Show notes and transcript are on the Sexvangelicals website: www.sexvangelicals.com Let's heal together!

One in six people worldwide experience infertility, according to the World Health Organization.    As the holiday season focuses on the celebration of children and families, infertility creates its own holiday horror story for individuals and relationships who experience it.   We're excited to have Dr. Niko Wilson, director of the Couples and Family Therapy program at William James College, join us for a special episode of Sexvangelicals.   Dr. Wilson's research focuses on the qualitative experience of infertility; also, each of the three of us have been personally impacted by infertility in some capacity. Join us for conversations about: Being Seen During the Holidays (6:30):   Pressures of Distance and Proximity (12:00):  Gatekeeping Grief During IVF (15:00) Benefits of Relational Satisfaction (18:00 Children and the Holidays (26:00) Navigating Feeling Invisible (32:00) Wanting to be Supportive Without Knowing How (34:00) Communicating and Sitting with Grief (38:00) Societal Acknowledgement (41:00) Grieving within a Positive Moment (43:00) Endometriosis During the Holidays (46:00) Emotional Aftercare and Rest During the Holidays (53:00)    

Do you know the extent to which purity culture and abstinence-only education can infiltrate your life? We've got a promise for you: by the end of this episode, you'll have a deeper understanding of this complex and controversial topic. We're joined by special guests Jeremiah Gibson and Julia Pastema, hosts of the podcast and educational platform, Sexvangelicals. Together, we dissect and discuss the defining features of purity culture, strict gender norms, and the harmful impacts these ideologies have on relationships and sexuality.On our journey into purity culture, we also highlight its paradoxical effects. From the double bind faced by men taught to control their impulses while being encouraged to pursue sexual relationships, to the heightened risks and lack of sexual communication, we confront the harsh realities of this belief system. We reference the insightful book "Real Sex" by Lauren Winner, posing provocative questions about the so-called "slippery slope" of sexual activity.Wrapping up our discussion, we delve into the personal experiences of Jeremiah and Julia. They share their transformative journey from music ministry and therapy to becoming sex therapists, and how their beliefs in evangelical Christianity were challenged. They reveal a new understanding of consent, and we extend our support to those affected by purity culture. Join us as we emphasize the importance of comprehensive, inclusive education around relationships and sexuality. Listen in as we shed light on the broader impacts of purity culture, and how we as a society can move forward.Follow us on social @sexeddebunked or send us a message at sexeddebunked@gmail.com

Deconstruction can be an exciting time for folks. We read new books. We explore the world and build relationships with a more diverse group of people. The world gets bigger. We see numerous amounts of options for living a happy life. However, especially for folks in long-term relationships, deconstruction can result in some really challenging relationship dynamics. As we talk about in this week's episode of Sexvangelicals, individuation, the practice of self-discovery for the sake of learning about oneself, independent of the larger world, can result in quite a bit of relational harm, especially if you and your partner don't have healthy ways to navigate differences. And if you grew up in the Evangelical or Pentecostal church, you likely did not learn healthy ways to navigate differences with your partner. Julia and Jeremiah talk about how self-discovery interfered with our ability to build collaborative dialogue with former partners.  And we provide ways that you can begin to talk with your partner about the new things that you're discovering about yourself, without threatening the relationship or trying to protect the other person. Shared Meaning  (3:50): “Couples, or folks in other relational structures, create shared meaning by developing a purpose or vision for the relationship, which incorporates both individual and joint dreams and goals.” Julia then adds: “Each person in the relationship has a strong individual voice. They have their identity as I or me. The relationship has a voice too. This is the We. In healthy relationships, we can hold on to our autonomy. Without losing the strong, secure foundation of We. Of course, this is easier said than done, especially if you grew up in an Evangelical, Mormon, or Pentecostal {EMPish} community.”  How the Church Skews Rituals (8:00): “The Gottman principle of creating shared meaning through the development and use of rituals, roles, goals, and symbols might be challenging for folks from EMPish communities whose experience with these things were damaging or limiting.” Jeremiah talks about how relationship rituals and symbols may be tough for folks from EMPish communities to create due to a painful callback to the Church's rituals. Part of the deconstruction process is taking elements the Church may have created painful associations with, such as rituals, and redefining and re-contextualizing them into meaningful and helpful things.  Christian Marriage Model (19:00): “Here's the script.  A couple meets,  courts each other with the intention of marriage, gets married, and then lives in this codependent state for the rest of their lives. Leaders hold up this enmeshed relational model as the standard of excellence. Enmeshment goes by the name of, quote, unity in these cultures.” Jeremiah offers the script used for EMPish dating which creates unhealthy codependency patterns, Julia then adds: “Within EMPish communities, many folks like me meet, date, and get married within that two to three year window before the bonding ends.” Differentiation v.s. Individuation (22:00):   Jeremiah defines: “Differentiation is the active ongoing process of defining self. Revealing self, clarifying boundaries, and managing the anxiety that comes from risking either greater intimacy or potential separation. {Ellen Bader's Definition).” Julia defines: “Individuation is the process of individual growth and self-discovery that exists within isolation without any consideration of the myriad of relationships that exist in that person's life.”   Sacrifice Seesaw (28:00): “Think about this like a seesaw.  In, mutually engaged relationships, differentiated relationships can move like a seesaw in which sacrifice moves back and forth between partners, different seasons of life may require more sacrifice from one person than the other. And we think about not then as a vacuum, but in a greater context, Jeremiah, I like the language that you used around damn the consequences, because what I've heard in pop psychology and what I've heard from friends is exactly that damn the consequences. And while that might be an important step towards self-growth. Well, Damn, the consequences mean that there could be some very real consequences from those choices. And we have to walk into that with some awareness.” Julia discusses how sacrifice in a relationship functions like a seesaw.  Seeing the Light (36:00): “We see these two dynamics a lot in couples where one or both people are leaving behind religious ideas and communities or are beginning to deconstruct. One person will begin to quote, see the light, so to speak, perhaps they'll have conversations with their partners about it, but in having conversations about it, that injects anxiety and destabilization into the relationship, or perhaps they won't talk about it, as what happened with me and my ex, the decisions that get made about community, faith practices, and communication will become unilateral, will become secretive even.” Jeremiah talks about how when the deconstruction process begins, one partner may be moving more rapidly through that process, leaving their partner behind.  Ultimatums (41:00): “I started with a differentiated approach in which I wanted to really kindly and sensitively explain my experience to my ex-partner. When he understandably had some difficult emotions arise,  I very, very quickly... moved into that ultimatum space. I didn't give him much time to sit with it. The really challenging situation that we were in. Now, ultimately, we got divorced. And even if I had practiced a more differentiated approach, we still might have ended the relationship. My regret and what I failed to do was to practice this conversation  about other sexual relationships from a differentiated perspective. I said, I'm doing this and you can get on board or you cannot get on board. That is not a healthy relational process.” Julia talks about how offering an ultimatum instead of an ongoing conversation about boundaries and practicing a differentiated approach hurt her and her ex-partner.  Relationship 101 (48:00): Julia and Jeremiah go through four tips in today's Relationship 101 #1: “Talk to your partner about your new interests and self-discoveries, or ask your partner about their new interests and self-discoveries.” #2: “Assess what shared interests still remain.”  #3: “Find new ways to bond with your partner.” #4: “Stay calm and patient. Don't panic.”   

Boston-based Sexvangelicals have made it their mission to cultivate self-compassion while navigating through the complexities of sex education in a religious context. Empower yourself with knowledge about menstruation and challenge the stigma in your religious community on this month's FLOW.   FLOW is straight talk about extreme periods, with new episodes the second Thursday of each month. Tune in for tips for self study, shared discoveries and to expand menstrual awareness.    Program Notes:   Guest Info: Sexvangelicals Website https://www.sexvangelicals.com/ IG: https://www.instagram.com/sexvangelicals/ Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/sexvangelicals/   How's Your Flow? Calendly link: https://calendly.com/flowtalk/flow-talk-period-pain-stories   HOST: Jessica RIchmond Website: jrich.online IG, @jessicalaurenrichmond  Twitter @geniuspills    HOST: Sarah Watson Website: sarahwatsonlpc.com Podcast: Behind The Bedroom Door Facebook: @sarahwatsonlpcsextherapy IG @swsxtherapy Twitter @swsextherapy   FLOW is sponsored by Takeda, the manufacturer of a treatment for adults with von Willebrand disease. To see if this treatment might be right for you and your needs, visit: https://ssshare.it/2rnK    Connect with BloodStream Media: Find all of our bleeding disorders podcasts on  BloodStreamMedia.com BloodStream on Facebook  BloodStream on Twitter    Check out Believe Limited's Other Work: BloodFeed: bloodfeed.com Bombardier Blood: bombardierblood.com Hemophilia: The Musical: breakingthroughhemophilia.com My Beautiful Stutter: mybeautifulstutter.com/ Stop The Bleeding!: stbhemo.com Teen Impact Awards: teenimpactawards.com The Science Fair: thesciencefair.org  

Defining Terms (2:00): This episode explores the Gottman principle of making dreams come true, individually and within a partnership. Jeremiah gives the example: “So when we consider life dreams From the partnership perspective, we may be referring to individual or shared dreams. For example, Julia and I have individual dreams of writing two different books. And we also have a shared dream of what we want to create with Sexvangelicals. Nurturing and supporting both individual and shared dreams are vital for the health of a relationship.” In defining terms, it is important to look at examples that narrow in broad concepts such as making dreams come true.  Gender and Dreams Within the Church (7:00): “Sadly, a person's dreams must serve the greater purpose of evangelism, or the language might be saving souls or bringing the kingdom of God, depending on your community of origin. So, for example, at different points in my life, I wanted to pursue acting. Or I wanted to pursue nursing or a variety of other careers. But those dreams always existed with an emphasis on being a missionary. So for example, maybe I would be a nurse missionary or vocational missions. But if I became an actor, that would have been much more complicated because you know that the entertainment industry is seedy as fuck. […] And then when we consider gender, the complications here get worse. Breaking it down. Women support the quote-unquote dreams of their husbands. Husbands support the dreams of the larger church dictated by the pastor and the broader goals of the American Christian church, often supporting white nationalism and other conservative agendas.” Julia lays out how the Church does not allow for the principle of making dreams come true to exist because it counteracts the mission of the Church which is to serve God, and/or your husband, and dreams of being an actor do not serve that purpose.  Gearing up for Marriage (19:00): “There was kind of a lighthearted playfulness between us flirty, just fun. Because of the pressure and, you know, the whole movement bolstered by kissing dating goodbye, it becomes this serious vibe of Would I marry this person? Because if not, then we can't waste time. And I can't be emotionally cheating on my future spouse by being flirty with this person. And it's just like, you know, it's illogical, but it was the world that we were in. And so I would say that it very much. dampened our playfulness is a big way that I saw that play out for us as we started dating.” Nicki shares what the confines of dating within the Church looked like and how it rid people of their ability to engage in flirting, fun, and general playfulness. Jeremiah responds: “From a relationship therapist standpoint, it's neat to hear you link sexuality and playfulness  and grieving about the ways that you lost those more playful, spontaneous parts of yourself in the name of adhering to the standards of the church.” It is important to name the elements of a relationship lost due to the Church during the deconstruction process. Grief is natural, and sadly many young folks who grew up in EMPish communities are only focused on marriage and not the fun of dating. Motherhood and Marriage (27:00): “I want to be the definition of success in a space, right? And so when I'm told that being a wife is what I'm called to do. And then that being a mother is God's highest and holiest calling. […] Then this is what gets me like the currency in this space. This is what gets me the social capital is to be the best helper, which someone said recently, that's the like three is a thing to do, to be like, I will be the best too, you know? And so that's what I just put all my energy into that. And then just the drain it was on me at the same time to then have the conflicting message of the very same people who are telling me that God's highest and holiest calling for me is motherhood are the same people putting this immense pressure on me to not let Stephen feel neglected that he should still take precedence over our newborn baby.” Nicki describes existing as a woman within a Christian structure because it is conflicting and causes tension. All desires and dreams are stripped, and the only true callings are motherhood and marriage. She goes on to say: “Inside of me so much tension and like prior to having kids, I had been a teacher. And so I wanted to be like a teacher of the year. I wanted to pour everything into this. But then it was like, okay, well, I can't do both. I can't be the best teacher and be the best wife and mom.” The challenge that comes up is people cannot be the best at everything and need support throughout their careers, marriage, and parenthood. The Church however does not set up structures to aid people through this emotionally or physically. It is challenging to chase after dreams that are not allowed to exist within the confines of the Church walls. Lack of Sex Education (41:00): “[Nicki] was told you either can't say no to sex, you say yes or convince me, and that was by older women, right, who had taken this mindset on and were teaching the younger women. That was this model that was upheld. For me, you know, growing up in the church, it's always like no sex before marriage, that's sinful, right? And so, I didn't. And even got to the point where it's like, okay, no kissing because it's too tempting to do that and not go further.” Stephen talks about how men and women were taught about sex, and how women are taught to never deny sex and to consistently encourage it once married, while men are taught no sex before marriage and that men have naturally high libidos which will activate on the wedding night. This idea plays into the light-switch theory once again, and how the second “I Do” is said, all the knowledge and desire of sex will just flow through your veins with no education or knowledge. It is challenging to exist as a man within an environment that tells you that the only thing you want is sex, because what if it isn't? The Church offers no support for couples to discuss their differing desires. Jeremiah adds: “Thinking about the cultural messages, not just the religious messages around, you know, what happens to women who have very quick sexual accelerators. The slut shaming that happens, all the negative language, that women are given both inside and outside of marriage. And then also the same thing for men  who have a higher break system, the shaming language, often the, the homophobic language that gets directed towards men who have a stronger break and the dual response cycle that you were referring to.” The Church tends to hurl homophobic and sexist language at people who differ from their idea of the norm, harming folks who do not fit into the rigid mold the Church prescribes to people.  No Room for Dreaming (49:00): ”It can seem so weird, like how could you live like this? Looking back on it and talking about it now, like the world we were in, but when we were in it, it made so much sense to me. Yeah, of course. It just seemed like this is the way It's supposed to be and this is what the bible says and this is what it means, therefore, this is what we're supposed to pursue, and on so many levels whether that's relationships or how we live in the world how we spend our money how we spend our free time, you know and I was just thinking about how controlling it sounds and because it is, and, I'm really just starting to see that more clearly now, just like how controlling it was. And it's, it's a big, it's a big process for me to heal from.” Stephen talks about how challenging it is to realize how controlling the Church makes life. It is incredibly challenging for folks moving into and through the deconstruction process to hold space for grief after realizing how many of their dreams were not allowed to flourish.   

Purity Culture isn't just a collection of pithy quotes and misappropriation of Scripture about bodies and relationships.    It's a creation of a myriad of businesses, media, and political systems that work together to showcase and reinforce the existence of particular types of relationships.   We've learned that understanding the larger context of Purity Culture, from the intersection of theology and American history to the cultural icons and legislative processes that these create, has helped us in our own deconstruction process.    Which is also true for our guests this week, Teddi and Nick from the podcast Oh God I Forgot About That. They study cultural and literary artifacts from the 90s and 00s and talk about how each of these got used and enhanced to propagate the larger goals of Purity Culture. They talk with us this week about:   Cosmic Consequences (10:00): “I say this basically every single episode. When you attach cosmic consequences to anything you guarantee it's going to be messed up. You're creating trauma. You're creating anxieties. And that's what I did.” Nick highlights the quintessential issue within the Church, and that is attaching God-given consequences to actions. For instance, if you have sex before marriage, you are going to go to hell. This type of thinking fosters intense anxiety within folks because it gets rid of their ability to explore life without feeling like they will be punished for stepping out of line. Deconstruction Within Relationships (12:00): Julia and Jeremiah both speak on how deconstruction happens within relationships, romantic or not, and how it is not the solo experience it is so often pictured to be. Julia says: “I've also noticed that some folks in the early stages of deconstruction can sometimes understandably overcompensate because they've been in these enmeshed communities for maybe decades. And so understandably, they want to start making their own individual autonomous choices as we should. However, as Jeremiah and I are relationship therapists, the deconstruction world doesn't always give good resources for how we still live in relationships all the time, not just with partners.” She mentions that many folks may struggle with moving too far into an isolated space as a form of regaining autonomy. Jeremiah adds:  “And a good reminder that deconstruction happens in relationships. This isn't a person like sailing away on their own solitary boat out into the great blue ocean. This happens through the conversations that y'all are talking about and, sometimes with partners, sometimes not with partners and that's exciting. It's complicated.” He talks about how deconstruction is happening within the context of our relationships, and it's important to have these conversations because deconstruction looks different for everyone, however we all have people in our lives and it's important to figure out how to navigate this enormous change. Physical Contact Through a Sexual Lens (22:00): “My partner said something brilliant, we were just having this conversation about the reason men misunderstand their sexual urges and desires. Especially men in the church are two-pronged. The first is what we've already talked about, which is you're always already in sexual temptation. But the other is, that men are conditioned to not be physical with each other, except in the context of violence. Or competition, right? So you can, you can have a football huddle. You can do the bro hug where you do the weapons check and the smack on the back. You can punch fists. But, there is no physical intimacy encouraged or allowed in masculine spheres. And then when you're man to woman, boy to girl, forget it, it's off limits. You are, as a human being, boxed into this corner where no physical intimacy, except maybe your parents. So then because the only valence for physical contact that you as a man in the church are given is sexuality, right? Yeah, all of your desire for any sort of physical contact or physical intimacy that isn't necessarily sexual. Gets filtered through that sexual lens.” Nick describes how the Church creates an environment in which physical touch is only offered to men through a violent lens or sexual one. This also creates a world view where sexuality is informed by violence and feeds into the idea that men are inherently violent.  Creating the Podcast (27:00): “Eleanor Roosevelt said something along the lines of like you'd be like delighted and disturbed to know how little people are actually thinking about you. And that proved true with the podcast. Like I have heard from no one about it. I mean, they could all be listening. All the people from my youth could be listening and discussing it behind my back. Perhaps they're not. I've had a few people who are more in the deconstruction stage of their faith, say that they're listening and that it's helpful to them, they almost presented in a kind of envious way, like, I can't wait to be on the other side and be able to talk about this the way you guys are talking about it, but for those who are deep in the church, like, I haven't heard anything from them and occasionally I will wonder what they're thinking, because how can you not?” Teddi talks about the challenges that come along with creating a podcast that talks about the Church, after years of being deeply rooted within it. The Church creates a Panopticon system, where everyone has the fear of being watched and told on, but is not sure if they are being watched at that moment. It generates an environment where trust is a challenging thing.   Separating the Individual and the Institution (32:00): “That's a conversation I've had with a few people in my life about the podcast because I know a lot of folks who are still in the church are still in conservatism and they have listened or they've like known that I've done it. […] I'm in a much better place where I can let everyone have their spiritual journey, and that's a very beneficial and important place for me, but the thing that I emphasize in those conversations is, again, the difference between the institution and the individual, right? When we look at somebody like Rob Bell, or we look at something like the Eldridge, you know, John and Stacey Eldridge's books, right?  They feel fluffy, they feel vapid, anodyne, but they're put in this context where they become defining for not just the culture, but patterns of thought.” Nick talks about how it's essential to let everyone have their own spiritual journey. Many folks who deconstruct are confronted by the people in their lives who still subscribe to Church ideologies, and many of those people feel personally attacked when someone is deconstructing. What is important on both sides is allowing folks to have their own relationship with spirituality and religion. Another point Nick covers is how Christian authors define thought, despite clearly lacking deep and meaningful research. As discussed many times on Sexvangelicals, Christian authors will use small sample sizes in their research, will fall back on Biblical principles, and sometimes, just straight up lie. What is dangerous however is their impact on thought within the Church and especially on young folks to whom these books are distributed too.  Doctrine Over Relationships (46:00): “Jeremiah and I always come back to the idea of a relationship. We had a conversation with Tia Levings, who people probably recognize from Shiny Happy People, and she describes fundamentalism as anything that puts a doctrine or a dogma over a human relationship.” Julia discusses a fundamental issue within the Church, which is putting doctrine over people. A key example of this is an unmarried couple who will abstain from sex because they believe they will go to hell for engaging in sex or with their sexuality. This is putting doctrine over relationships because this can and will harm many folks and their relationships because it makes sex the enemy and then sex becomes an enemy that has to be engaged with for the rest of their married lives. 

We're back from our month off hiking the Alpe Adria in Austria, Slovenia, and Italy. And we pick up today where we left off, talking about the Sound Marital House model from couples therapy gurus John and Julie Gottman.   For a friendly reminder, the first three levels of the Sound Marital house are curiosity, appreciation, and leaning toward your partner. And this week, Julia and Jeremiah talk about the fourth value: the positive perspective, including: Defining Terms (10:00): “For the sake of today, we're going to say that being positive about sexuality in a partnership means being positive about the existence of eroticism in a relationship, which to be clear is not the same as sex. […] To simplify it for today, eroticism is ultimately about the presence of sexual desire, whether or not you consummate that sexuality. So we'll be focusing on positivity about the presence of sexual desire, and since this is a relationship podcast, We'll talk about the presence of sexual desire within a partnership or whatever other relational structure you have.” Julia defines positive perspective, eroticism, and sexuality in terms of today's episode. Defining clear terms is an important value for Sexvangelicals, and it is important to have a clear understanding of how we will be using these terms to navigate our topic. Hierarchy (17:00): “The gatekeeping around marriage creates an exclusionary social hierarchy in which you've got married Christian folks at the top, accessing all their God-given sexual rights. And unmarried Christian folks, one rung below, who are either dating or pursuing marriage in some sort of explicit way. Eventually, those folks may have full access to the post-marriage sex script. But until marriage, they are inherently limited. Unmarried folks who by choice or not by choice will not ever get married are the next level lower. They are not able to access the joy of sexuality in marriage.  […] And all of this is important in setting up the episode today because we are highlighting that dichotomy of the pre-marriage sexual script and the post-marriage sexual script. And I suppose if we have this hierarchy... The secular folks are just outside of this system because they refuse to participate because they're relishing in their heathen ways. Like us. Us unmarried folks who are still having sex.” Julia highlights the hierarchy within EMPish communities based on marriage status. EMPish Churches only have two scripts, one for those pre and post-marriage, creating a system where only those two realities exist. This is incredibly damaging as all your relationships in the “pre” sphere exist as a march to the wedding, as Julia will go on to share today. Preserving Purity (19:00): “So due to the gatekeeping around marriage, the dichotomy between the pre-marriage and post-marriage scripts inherently function to protect the system of social and sexual hierarchy that we just described […] So, if the pre-marriage script focuses on preserving the purity of your sexuality until you can access the post marriage script, folks hoping to get married face some, some unique sexual challenges.” Jeremiah talks about how the pre-marriage script is incredibly limited in fundamentalist communities and that the only information people hoping to get married receive is that they will unlock all these secrets about sex when they're already married. This causes a lot of pain and grief, because the reality is without proper sex education and knowledge around sex, most of people confronted with the post-marriage script do not know what to do. He also says: “Depending on the level of fundamentalism in a person's community, the rules limiting access to sexuality may vary in strictness while still serving to protect sexual purity.” This statement encapsulates the issue at hand because the rules around sexuality in fundamentalist communities are structured around preserving purity, however, once you are married, your “purity” goes away.  It's All About Sex (28:00): “Because I wanted to have sex. Even at the time, I had some shame around that because I knew, according to the church, that I as a woman was not supposed to have those sexual desires. Interestingly, by eradicating any meaningful sexual expression, the church's teachings actually make dating relationships all about sex.” Julia speaks about how by repressing any means of sexual expression, the church inadvertently makes dating all about sex. A lot of young couples instead of enjoying their time dating, spend time focusing on “not giving in to sin.” This puts sex on a pedestal, which in turn makes people want it more.  Shame and Grief (40:00): “The reason that this story is so essential to this episode is that you met someone that you liked, you briefly dated, you enjoyed some sexual experiences, which would be completely developmentally appropriate for a 19-year-old who's working during the summer months while in college, but instead of enjoying it, instead of learning about yourself and exploring relational and sexual values, you obsessed over your sin.” Jeremiah says in response to Julia's story. He talks about how instead of being able to relax into developmentally appropriate desires she had to spend her entire relationship worrying about sinning. Julia then adds: “Yes. I'm sad for my 19-year-old self, and I know that this story is not unique. I can't tell you how many times I've supported clients in grieving what they lost due to sexual shame. And I'm not specifically grieving the relationship itself, I'm grieving that I lost the opportunity to get to know myself and I'm grieving how much pleasure and fun not just sexual pleasure and fun that the shame stole from you.” She shares the grief of not being able to have those “normal” experiences because of the fundamentalist community she was in. EMPish communities have a focus on teaching people shame, not on teaching people about sexuality, and shame dictates the pre-marriage script.  Lack of Eroticism (49:00): “Sex was finally allowed. And that actually killed a big part of the eroticism for me and for many people. The massive barriers to sexuality created by purity culture actually make sex pretty sexy. But folks like me and like so many others didn't know how to create and build eroticism on their own without those barriers. Which often causes sex to be pretty disappointing after the barriers of purity culture are no longer present.  […] Second, sexuality was now not only allowed, it was expected. Which I know you'll discuss more in your episode, Jeremiah, and that generated a lot of sexual pressure for me. This thing, intercourse, was expected, but I didn't have relational or individual literacy about sexuality or tools to co-create a pleasurable experience.” Julia shares how after the barriers to entry were removed, there was no eroticism present nor was there a way for her to engage in sexuality due to the lack of resources and knowledge. EMPish communities foster an environment where people are forbidden to have sexual desires and thoughts up until their wedding night, and they are just expected to know right after they say “I Do.”   Beginning the Conversation Around Neutrality (1:04:00): “Neutrality means that you do not actively want sex. And you are open to go full circle to the possibility of a sexual experience. So, I learned that you don't have to wait until you really want to have sex to have a great sexual experience. So, if the responsive desire is a big part of the sexual template for many individuals, many couples, or throuples or whatever your group, then we've got to actually figure out what to do with that. Simply knowing that responsive desire is important for folks or the dominant template for folks isn't enough. And in future episodes, we're going to be talking about what does it mean to take that neutrality. Take that responsive desire and build something that hopefully is really fun and pleasurable.” Julia explains what neutrality and responsive desire are, a topic that will be explored more in the coming months. It is important to highlight in this Relationship 101 that sexual desire looks different for everyone and to not hold yourself to the same standard as everyone else, because it looks different for everyone as Jeremiah notes:  “And one of the things that we'll come across when we do this, just to skip ahead a little bit, is the idea of conflict. Yes. Because... How you access sexuality, Julia, is going to be different from how I access sexuality. And we've got to figure out how to navigate those differences and to create something that works for both of us. That both of us really enjoy. And conflict doesn't have to be scary, it doesn't have to be fighting, anything like that. Even though some emotions will probably come up for folks, even for you and I, as we navigate this.”          

Sharon asks Tracey how she's doing, and Tracey doesn't hold back.   REALITY CHECK - when she says she wants to burn down a church - this is FIGURATIVELY folks!!!!  We in NO WAY recommend or condone or support violence!!!!!Article (3 Parts)  "Ministry of Violence"https://theswordandthesandwich.substack.com/p/ministry-of-violence#:~:text=This%20is%20the%20first%20of,from%20children%2C%20and%20its%20effects.Corporal punishment in schools is currently legal in 19 states:  AL, AZ, AR, CO, FL, GA, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MS, MO, NC, OK, SC, TN, TX, WY.  As far as we know, there are no laws or limits on corporal punishment in private homes or church settings.https://njsbf.org/2023/01/04/is-corporal-punishment-making-a-comeback/#:~:text=Many%20states%20have%20banned%20corporal,still%20permitted%20in%2019%20states.Books that promote horrific child abuse, including spanking rituals, all in the name of "raising up a child in the way he should go":Dare to Discipline by Dr. James DobsonGod, the Rod and Your Child's Bod   by Larry TomczakThe Strong Willed Child   by Dr. James DobsonTo Train Up a Child  by Michael & Debi PearlPS - if you feel compelled to get copies of these books for your own research, PLEASE find a way to buy used, so that the authors receive no additional royalties!  Thank you!Become a 'No Hit Zone' advocate  --https://nohitzone.com/ What is the goal of  No Hit Zone? To create an environment of comfort and safety for parents, families, and staff present in every location and facility. A No Hit Zone sets a precedent within the community and establishes a commitment to the promotion of effective parenting techniques by instilling that: No adult shall hit a childNo child shall hit another childNo adult shall hit another adultNo child shall hit an adultTracey mentioned a verse in Psalms, but it actually is in Proverbs.  (We take it as a point of pride that we no longer remember every bible reference!)  Here are verses  in Proverbs, the "wisdom" of Solomon (suggestions?) that justify beating a child:  13:24;  19:18;  20:30;  22:15;  23:13-14;  29:15.  Interestingly, those who embrace these precepts are able to conveniently ignore the absolute COMMAND from God via Moses in Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - if your son won't obey you, you MUST stone him to death!  Just one more example of bible gymnastics. Our episodes that explore how purity culture and ritualized spanking abuse can have a major impact on future sexuality:  "SeXploration with sExvangelicals" Parts 1 and 2:https://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/13365285https://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/13345852https://www.instagram.com/feetofclay.cultsistershttps://feetofclayconfessionsofthecultsisters.buzzsprout.comWe love acronyms -- and we aren't afraid to use them! Here are some common ones that we might forget to explain:LDM - Last Days Ministries (organization) ICT - Intensive Christian Training School (at LDM)YWAM - Youth With A Mission (organization) CCM - Contemporary Christian Music

CAUTION!  Well, duh, we talk about sex in this episode (explicitly!), but we also touch on ritualized child spanking, spiritual abuse and more.  Not appropriate for kids.  Listener discretion advised - and please take care of yourselves.You are currently listening to Part 2 --- you can listen to PART 1 here:https://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/13329982How do you find healthy sexuality after the mind-fuck of purity culture?  Chad and Abigail escaped Bill Gothard's cult IBLP.  Tracey and Sharon slowly emerged from Keith Green's cult Last Days Ministries.  Together they talk about the journey to healing and healthy sexuality.Virgins & Volcanos - Purity Culture (Part 1 of 4)https://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/12790634Abigail's Story (Part 1 of 3)https://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/13030650Chad's Storyhttps://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/13233210Our general discussion of "Shiny Happy People"https://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/13032097Link to the documentary  "Shiny Happy People"https://www.amazon.com/Shiny-Happy-People-Duggar-Secrets/dp/B0B8TR2QV5Chad's TikTok, Twitter & InstaGram (not to be missed!)https://www.tiktok.com/@archradishhttps://www.twitter.com/archradishhttps://www.instagram.com/archradish85Abigail's TikTok (with lots of juicy cult stuff!)https://www.tiktok.com/@unicornhabitat?_t=8d8e9yzzuNH&_r=1Abigail's wonderful non-profit work with therapy dogs can be found here:https://www.theroverchasefoundation.org/https://www.instagram.com/feetofclay.cultsistershttps://feetofclayconfessionsofthecultsisters.buzzsprout.comWe love acronyms -- and we aren't afraid to use them! Here are some common ones that we might forget to explain:LDM - Last Days Ministries (organization) ICT - Intensive Christian Training School (at LDM)YWAM - Youth With A Mission (organization) CCM - Contemporary Christian Music

CAUTION!  Well, duh, we talk about sex in this episode (explicitly!), but we also touch on ritualized child spanking, spiritual abuse and more.  Not appropriate for kids.  Listener discretion advised - and please take care of yourselves.How do you find healthy sexuality after the mind-fuck of purity culture?  Chad and Abigail escaped Bill Gothard's cult IBLP.  Tracey and Sharon slowly emerged from Keith Green's cult Last Days Ministries.  Together they talk about the journey to healing and healthy sexuality.Virgins & Volcanos - Purity Culture (Part 1 of 4)https://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/12790634Abigail's Story (Part 1 of 3)https://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/13030650Chad's Storyhttps://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/13233210Our general discussion of "Shiny Happy People"https://www.buzzsprout.com/2078827/13032097Link to the documentary  "Shiny Happy People"https://www.amazon.com/Shiny-Happy-People-Duggar-Secrets/dp/B0B8TR2QV5Chad's TikTok, Twitter & InstaGram (not to be missed!)https://www.tiktok.com/@archradishhttps://www.twitter.com/archradishhttps://www.instagram.com/archradish85Abigail's TikTok (with lots of juicy cult stuff!)https://www.tiktok.com/@unicornhabitat?_t=8d8e9yzzuNH&_r=1Abigail's wonderful non-profit work with therapy dogs can be found here:https://www.theroverchasefoundation.org/https://www.instagram.com/feetofclay.cultsistershttps://feetofclayconfessionsofthecultsisters.buzzsprout.comWe love acronyms -- and we aren't afraid to use them! Here are some common ones that we might forget to explain:LDM - Last Days Ministries (organization) ICT - Intensive Christian Training School (at LDM)YWAM - Youth With A Mission (organization) CCM - Contemporary Christian Music

This week we highlight a few of the reasons we began Sexvangelicals and what is to come in the following weeks. We will be doing a Summer Rewatch Series highlighting three of our favorite episodes, which include new content at the beginning of each episode. It is important to reflect and realize how we have grown and evolved and we want to share that with you. In this mini-episode (or trailer) we reflect on some of the reasons we started this podcast to begin with and what episodes we will be covering in the next month! Relationships and Deconstruction (6:00):  “Our focus within the sexuality and deconstruction sphere is on the relationships that have survived a church exit or the relationships that are forming for the first time without the rigid confines of the dictates of purity culture.” Jeremiah talks about their work within the sex and deconstruction sphere is centered around what happens to relationships after you leave the Church and a big portion of this podcast is dedicated to exploring that question from multiple angles.  Julia adds: “Building flourishing partnerships and sexual relationships after leaving an Evangelical Mormon or Pentecostal community, or as Jeremiah has coined, EMPish religious structures are uniquely hard work.” These organizations make it so that it is hard to leave and just jump into fulfilling relationships, and friendships, and just have a healthy sex life in general.  Deconstructing the ‘Right Way' (6:30): “I've noticed that folks leaving EMPish communities put a lot of pressure on themselves to deconstruct the quote “right way” and transition smoothly to a whole new way of engaging themselves in the world.” Jeremiah notes this idea that there is only one way to deconstruct and that it is linear, clean, and simple. None of that is true and that is another motivation for this podcast, to highlight different deconstruction processes, to show that it is inherently messy in nature and that's not a bad thing.  Positive Sex Ed (7:30): Engaging in positive and pleasurable sexuality takes time to build and develop, especially if you received sex-negative messages for years and maybe even decades of your life. Something that we talk about in our interview with Amber Wood several months ago. What happens when you haven't received good relational and sexual health education until sometime in your adulthood? So you might be for me, 27 - 30. Operating in some ways with the sexual resources of a teenager.  So that's part of what I mean when I say, oh, I was 28, but perhaps engaging with sexuality for the first time.” Julia shares how because of the system under which she grew up she was working under the sexual resources of a teenager as an adult when she left the Church. It is essential to give ourselves space and to reflect on the resources we have been given and not shame ourselves for not being “ahead” because there is no such thing, there is only our journey, our pace, and our lives. 

This Quoircast Podcast episode it brought to you by the Deadly Faith Podcast - Exploring where Religion and Crime Collide. Deadly Faith is one of our partners in Quoircast. Please like and follow the.In this episode we talk with Jeremiah GibsonSexvangelicals is a podcast, educational platform, and community building project created by Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson. We are both sex and couples therapists in the Boston area. We both grew up in religious communities. While these contexts provided us with meaningful values of compassion and kindness, they did not prepare us for accessing sexuality and intimacy. What transpired was a beautiful process of unlearning shameful and fear-based messages about sexuality, relearning new and relational sexual patterns, and healing from the ways that our Christian communities got it wrong.You can follow Sexvangelicals on:Facebook     InstagramYou can find all things Sexvangelicals at their websiteLike and follow their podcast SexvangelicalsYou can connect with This Is Not Church on:Facebook     Instagram      Twitter     TikTok     YouTubeAlso check out our Linktree for all things This Is Not Church relatedPlease like and follow our Quoircast Partners:Heretic Happy Hour     Messy Spirituality     Apostates Anonymous    Second Cup with KeithIdeas Digest     The New Evangelicals     Snarky Faith Podcast     Wild Olive     Deadly FaithEach episode of This Is Not Church Podcast is expertly engineered by our producer The Podcast Doctor Eric Howell. If you're thinking of starting a podcast you need to connect with Eric!

In this episode, I talked with Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson, sex therapists and hosts of the Sexvangelicals podcast: "the sex education the church didn't want you to have." We discussed communication strategies for relationships post-deconstruction. Connect with The Sexvangelicals IG @sexvangelicals Website: sexvangelicals.com Resources MentionedThe Existential podcast - “Episode 51 (That's Interesting. Tell Me More) with Kelly and Dan Matlock” Come as You Are by Emily Nagoski Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch   Pure by Linda Kay Klein Shameless by Nadia Bolz-Weber ⁠⁠ If you like what you heard in this episode, share it with a friend and on social media. I really think that little by little, person by person, we can broaden the narrative. In addition, make sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. Then, rate and review to help others find the show. Connect with Nicki Pappas Website nickipappas.com IG @broadeningthenarrative Twitter @broadnarrative Facebook - facebook.com/groups/broadeningthenarrative Broadening the Narrative blog Episode Transcripts: broadeningthenarrative.blogspot.com (transcripts can be found here as they become available)

The Woman Beings are joined by special guests Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson, sex therapists and hosts of the Sexvangelicals podcast: "the sex education the church didn't want you to have." They share their experience navigating the fallout of purity culture in their individual practices and personal lives, the importance of comprehensive sex education, and the dangers of abstinence-only rhetoric. Follow the Sexvangelicals: Website: https://www.sexvangelicals.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexvangelicals/ Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/42EBbNr Resources Mentioned: Treating Out Of Control Sexual Behavior by Douglas Braun-Harvey and Michael Vigorito: https://bit.ly/46c19Lk The State Of Affairs by Esther Perel: https://bit.ly/3oZOydj Untrue by Wednesday Martin: https://bit.ly/3oZhbaC Pure by Linda Kay Klein: https://bit.ly/3fX080c Shameless by Nadia Bolz-Webber: https://bit.ly/3qz9FDz Come As You Are by Emily Nagoski: https://bit.ly/3MVKBOA If you want to help support our content, feel free to shop these affiliate links from brands we love! Girlfriend Collective: https://girlfriendcollective.pxf.io/jWdG4Z --- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/womanbeingpodcast/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@womanbeingpodcast Website: https://www.womanbeingcommunity.com/

Happy Pride Month from Sexvangelicals! We kick off June by talking with our new Marketing and Communications Director, Maddie Upson, about her experiences navigating queerness inside and outside of religious contexts. This is one of the most riveting conversations we've had about queerness on our podcast. Check out our conversations about: Jenga Pieces (14:00): Julia uses the metaphor that deconstruction is like removing pieces of a Jenga Tower; eventually, it all comes crashing down. Maddie shares, “The first time I went to a party and someone offered me alcohol, I've been prepared my entire life for that. The Church said like, they're gonna try to get you to do drugs and you just gotta stand strong. And they [the partygoers] were like, okay. And they just bopped off. And I was like, well, this wasn't the spiritual haggling that I had expected as they led me to believe. And I started realizing these, like non-believers were way more respectful of my decisions than most of the Christians I grew up with.” When Maddie saw that people weren't forcing drugs on her and her Christian values weren't being attacked, a Jenga piece was pulled out.  Capacity during Deconstruction (20:00): Julia reflects on Maddie's story and explains how during the deconstruction process it's understandable and normal that she did not have the capacity to explore her sexuality. “So it is such a good point that you just didn't have the capacity to engage bisexuality or queerness and that wasn't a cop-out or, any other negative thing that was just where you were at the time and all your other capacities were utilized in other ways. You didn't have anything else left for that.” Deconstruction takes up a lot of our mind's energy and space, and there is no shame in making realizations about ourselves later in life, there is no such thing as “being late.”  Hair Cutting and Patriarchy (25:00): Maddie shares, “I buzzed my head and I was like, I'm not pretty anymore. But not in a sad way, right? Like I am still attractive, I can be so many other adjectives now. That person in the mirror belongs to me.” The Church and mainstream culture seem to agree on a few things: the idea that women need long pretty hair and make-up seems to be one of them. Of course, the amount of make-up and clothing varies, but the expectations set on women by the patriarchy are harmful and limiting to our self-expression.  Labels (39:50): Jeremiah summarizes, “Queer is all-encompassing. Whereas bisexual, like still in some ways is a word that centers around the gender binary. You're either attracted to men, you're either attracted to women. Oh, you could be attracted to both. Maddie, what you're talking about that given all these different types of attraction that happen is like my levels of attraction are situational, are circumstantial.” Labels can be constricting, and not that they are bad, they're not, but a lot of people do not fall into the gay, straight, or bisexual labels, but find themselves identifying more with the term “queer” or just sexually fluid. It's okay to not have a label. All that matters is practicing safe and consensual sex with whomever it may be.  Coming Out (45:00): Maddie shares, “Coming out can imply that this is something really important that you need to tell people and you're gonna have some questions and you're gonna have to be ready for them, instead of just being. It also implies that the default is heterosexuality.” Coming out shouldn't be an expectation of queer people; nobody owes anyone an explanation for their sexuality. Coming out may be meaningful and important, however, it should not be the expectation of every queer person to inform everyone in their lives that they are queer. We do not need to divulge every piece of information about ourselves, especially with sexuality, because we may be sexually fluid, and there should not be the expectation that every time we date someone of a different gender an entire announcement has to be made.  We hope you have a fantastic Pride Month, however you choose to celebrate. Let's heal together!

One of the things that consistently brings women into the Desire On Fire community is shame.    Shame around sex for sure — wanting it, knowing what you want, asking out loud for what you want (often the most difficult and vulnerable part of our journey).    But it's not just about sexual shame. It's also about shame around all kinds of desire — for any kind of pleasure, fun, abundance, agency, freedom, or satisfaction.    Where does this shame come from? And how is it that even people who were raised outside of traditional religious environments and in sex-positive families (like Aimee and Ellie) still carry trauma and fear around sex and desire?    Our guests today have a unique perspective, because they grew up inside the conservative evangelical structures that gave rise to purity culture.    And through the long journey of exploration, unlearning, and finally being trained as sex therapists themselves, they've found a way forward towards healing, freedom, and wholeness — not just in their sex lives, but in the fullness of all kinds of desire.     If you grew up in purity culture (and spoiler alert: we all feel the effects of this paradigm, whether we grew up with religion or not), we think you'll find this conversation with Juila Postema and Jeremiah Gibson to be enlightening and deeply encouraging.    Julia and Jeremiah are currently the hosts of the Sexvangelicals, a sexual health podcast and education platform with the mission to support relationships in reclaiming sexuality following adverse religious experiences.   What you'll learn in this episode:  How Julia and Jeremiah found their way to freedom (and to each other) What exactly is purity culture?  How purity culture affects even non-religious people Why early + clear conversations around sex, pleasure, and desire are so important How you can begin your journey to break free from sexual shame   Explore our website: https://www.desireonfire.com/ Come and join our FB community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/DesireOnFire/ And connect with us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/desireonfire/   Connect with Aimee: Check out my instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/aimeebatuski/   Connect with Ellie: Check out my instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/elliemontgomerie   Connect with Julia and Jeremiah: Sexvangelicals website Julia and Jeremiah on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sexvangelicals/ Sexvangelicals podcast   People + resources mentioned in this episode: DOF Episode with Elena Rossi on sexual healing after trauma AASECT (American Association of Sexual Educators, Counselors, and Therapists) Multi-Orgasmic Man, by Mantak Chia Extended Massive Orgasm, by Steve Bodansky Dr. Wednesday Martin Sexvangelicals podcast episode with Kara Haug - Reframing Our Stories   Apple Podcasts summary:  If you grew up in purity culture (and spoiler alert: we all feel the effects of this paradigm, whether we grew up with religion or not), we think you'll find this conversation with Juila Postema and Jeremiah Gibson to be enlightening and deeply encouraging.    Julia and Jeremiah are currently the hosts of the Sexvangelicals, a sexual health podcast and education platform with the mission to support relationships in reclaiming sexuality following adverse religious experiences.   We're looking at the roots of purity culture, its far-reaching effects on everything we do — and how to find healing and freedom in truth, love, and community. 

Today's episode discusses one of the most challenging dynamics that we see when doing sex therapy with couples where one/both grew up in a religious context: How do you navigate value conversion, the paradigm shifting that happens during therapy, when two people convert their values at different paces? Jimmy Bridges, PhD, therapist extraordinaire at This Space Between, joins us for part two of this extremely important conversation. Jimmy, Julia, and Jeremiah talk about their process of value conversion in their former marriages—spoiler alert: it wasn't pretty for any of the three of us—as well as: Empathy (5:20): Jimmy explains, “What I'm mostly encouraging folks to do is both get to a place where they're able to really like step into the shoes of the other person. And then that works both ways because it helps with pacing. I think the biggest issue that leads to harm is we're trying to move too fast. Be cognizant of how it's impacting the people connected to you and learn how to step into the shoes.” Finding similarities (10:30): Jimmy continues, “More than not, there's probably more alignment than we think there is in this process of huge transitions, either religiously or like relationally. I think how it gets enacted—behavior versus principle—I think can sometimes confuse us into thinking, oh, my partner's really different than me because they like practice this in a different way. But the value itself might still remain the same.” Anxiety and value conversion (15:30): Jimmy describes processes that impacted his separation from his ex, “I wish I would've advocated for what I was wanting more because there was a fear of like, “Ooh, how is this gonna be perceived?” But I didn't even think at that time, about this is why it's important to me. This is what I do with like couples all the time. Connect it to why it's important to you.” Navigating gender roles and therapy (18:30): Jeremiah notes that adherence to gender roles can interfere with the process of therapy, to which Jimmy responds, “The dilemma of a therapist is how much do I put myself in a position where I'm actually not being culturally competent? Right. And instead, use my position of power to say, Ooh, okay, I can't actually go forward with respecting all of your cultural values if some of those values are going to go against the treatment goals that you came in here asking me to help you with.” The impact of enmeshment (29:20): Jimmy notes, “I think there is quite a lot of enmeshment that occurs relationally because it's being in a way socialized into you from being in an enmeshed church. I think communication skills become more important when you come out of a culture like that are like developing tolerance when you're in the space of tension, so distress tolerance. Find some internal reminders that the family isn't going to collapse. If we're hearing someone talk about something different, that harmony can still be maintained in the face of differences. And what that looks like in communication is something as simple as, “Let me see if I've got you so far, are you saying this, this and this?” At the core of our work at Sexvangelicals is the process of value conversion. If you're interested in working with us, please give this episode a listen! Let's heal together!

We're continuing our series on The Sex Ed We Wish We Had, rooted in the six sexual health principles of Doug Braun-Harvey. The second principle is non-exploitation (5:00), “when a person leverages their power and control to receive sexual gratification. The outcome is sex that is ruthless and insensitive to the feelings of a partner and family members. The outcome encompasses unwanted, harsh, or cruel nomination or taking advantage of a person who is mentally incapable to use their cognitive and emotional capacity. To give or not give consent.” We commonly talk about exploitation from the perspective of individuals leveraging their individual power and control to receive sexual gratification. On this, and in future episodes, we acknowledge that individuals who exploit are commonly enacting cultural and societal directives to exploit. As such, we are holding both systems and individuals accountable. We're excited to have our colleague and friend Amber Wood as our guest. She talks with us about the exploitation of queer people in the church, including: Your Goodness is God (13:00): “I was raised that anything good in you is God. That's not you. Your humanity essentially is bad. And so if I take away my belief in God or my belief in Jesus, if I take that away, I'm just now trying to figure out who I am because all my identity that was good. Well, that had to be God. Anything that's bad, well that's just your sinful nature, right? So what exists when you take that away?” Amber shares how the Southern Baptist Church taught that all your goodness is God and all your badness is you. Erasure in the Church (15:00): Amber reflects on how homosexuality was not even condemned, it was never mentioned. “I don't remember them ever really talking about queerness. It was so black and white in scripture to the point of just like, I wouldn't commit adultery or I wouldn't rob a bank. I'm not going to have a same-sex relationship. It wasn't something that was taught about in lessons.” Amber shares her story about not being able to identify what a crush on women even felt like because there was no vocabulary ever given for that. Erasure spurs feelings of confusion and non-belonging without ever giving a label so many people feel more lost. Jeremiah summarizes, “The assumption that if we don't talk about something, people will just like make the assumption, oh, well I don't need to explore that.” (21:00)  Guilt Around Masturbation (31:00): Amber shares her guilt around masturbation: “I was tormented by that. I felt like that was my horrible thing and I felt so much guilt and shame for it. Now I can look back and be like, no one took the time to really talk to you and educate you and, and support you in that,” This is heartbreaking because these feelings could have been non-existent if proper sex education was taught and available. The conversation about comprehensive sex education is a theme throughout Sexvangelicals because so many painful feelings stem from inaccurate or non-existent sex education. Developmental Delays (48:00): Amber explains, “With some clients that I have who come out later in life, their developmental level of building relationships is more at a junior high level now. So the immaturity part of that is trying to navigate that. Plus their entire self-worth and how they view themselves is all messed up. Yeah. That puts them at bigger risk of being in unhealthy relationships, because they don't understand who they are, what they are outside of what they were raised to believe.” Julia and Jeremiah talk about the impact of those developmental delays on the stability of relationships. Amber closes with a message of hope: “I'm seeing more acceptance and less of a stigma. The LGBTQ community is just normal. And so it gives me hope that they will then raise their children to where they're accepting and they don't have to go through this. That gives me hope that, that maybe this is changing.” Let's heal together!

We're continuing our conversation about consent on Sexvangelicals. Julia made a comment on this week's episode that consent is simultaneously easy and extremely difficult to navigate. I mean, we want consent to be an easy, straightforward thing. And when there are clear intentions to use sexuality as a way to physically and emotionally hurt and violate other people, the line between consent and non-consent becomes pretty straightforward. However, if we think about consent not as attorneys do, as a yes/no binary, consent was or wasn't given, but more as a relational process, a dialogue, a conversation, here's where things become a bit more complicated. We continue to talk about the nuances of consent in part 2 of our episode. We also provide Relationship 101 on how to use some of the principles of consent in your sexual relationships. Expressing desire (7:45): Julia says, “Because being able to express desire for sexuality is an important part of consent. Consent is the negotiation of pleasure.” Unfortunately, due to the shaming of sexuality in the church and performance of gender roles, neither she nor her ex were able to communicate their desire for sexuality, to the detriment of the relationship. The church's myths about consent (12:00): We name three myths about consent. 1) The frequency of sex and the performance of sex is an indicator of relational health (12:45). 2) Men are expected to take over, and women want men to take over (17:30). 3) Men are sexual aggressors, and women are expected to be passive recipients (24:00). Relationship 101: How to practice affirmative consent, particularly if talking about sex is new (31:30): We name five specific tips. 1) Plan a time and place (31:50). 2) Pick a specific topic and use specific resources to help out, if necessary (32:30). 3) Set a limit to the amount of time you talk about this (34:25). 4) Celebrate the ends of conversations together (35:15). 5) Use a safe word if things get too overwhelming (37:05). Julia concludes, “You might even be apprehensive about having a conversation about sex, so check in along the way.” Consent is ultimately about conversation and dialogue, not just during the actual sexual experience, but before and after genital play happens. Let's heal together!

The second part of our interview with Julia and Jeremiah, sex therapists and hosts of the podcast Sexvangelicals. If you haven't listened to part one, we encourage you to go back and listen to that before this episode. In this episode, we spoke with Julia and Jeremiah about how we got to the place where conversations around sexuality are framed around morality and behaviours and some ways of dealing with the grief of what has been lost or damaged. We also got a list of resources for those wanting to learn more or look into counselling. We are grateful to Ken Best, our occasional co-host, who joined us for this interview. It was an enjoyable, honest and open conversation. Given that the topic is sex you will likely hear things that upset or offend you, no matter where you are on the spectrum of religious/non-religious. After all, sex therapy is unafraid to delve into some topics and questions that are often left unaddressed.   Resources Books Peggy Kleinplatz – Magnificent Sex Doug Brown Harvey – Treating Out of Control Sexual Behavior Beverley Dale - Advancing Sexual Health for the Christian Client Nadia Bolz-Weber – Shameless Linda Kay Klein – Pure Dr. Wednesday Martin   Therapy Resources The Incarnation Institute for Sex and Faith - Online Resources  AASECT (American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists) - An online database for finding certified therapists in your area, both in the United States and Canada

In a previous episode of Rector's Cupboard we were pleased to interview Linda Kay Klein, author of the book Pure on purity culture within the evangelical church. Through Linda, our guests for this episode found Rector's Cupboard and connected with us. Julia and Jeremiah are sex therapists who work often with people who were raised in high control religious environments. They are also the hosts of the podcast Sexvangelicals.  We are grateful to welcome occasional co-host Ken Best for this episode and the next as the conversation went so well that we split it into two episodes.  We talk about common assumptions around sexuality in church culture. We consider what the term “value-based” means. We unpack some of the potential damage from various fundamentalist (both religious and otherwise) frameworks of sexual health.  It was an enjoyable, honest and open conversation. Given that the topic is sex you will likely hear things that upset or offend you, no matter where you are on the spectrum of religious/non-religious. After all, sex therapy is unafraid to delve into some topics and questions that are often left unaddressed. The article discussed in the banter on today's episode is "The Hounding of Kate Forbes Shows Godless Squad Have Won," February 23, 2023  

Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson each grew up in the world of fundamentalist evangelical Christianity, and they each independently became sex therapists and left the fundamentalist culture. They specialize in helping couples with negative religious backgrounds discover sexuality that works for their partnership. We talk about their work, and pose a listener question right out of Bruce's latest book: how can the listener reconcile his lifelong attraction to men with his personal, marriage, and family ties to his evangelical church? Their website is https://www.sexvangelicals.com. As we say in the episode, sign up for Dr. Chalmer's Newsletter! You can do it right from our homepage, https://ctin7.com. When you sign up, you'll get access to the first volume of our Video Vignette series, in which you'll see Bruce and Judy enacting scenes featuring one of the couples from Bruce's book Reigniting the Spark. Send us your questions and comments! Go to https://ctin7.com, and scroll down to the “Submit a Question” button. You can find out more about Dr. Chalmer's new book, It's Not About Communication! Why Everything You Know About Couples Therapy is Wrong, at https://ctin7.com/books. Like this podcast? Review us, like us, follow us, and do all those other kinds of wonderful things to us! It helps people find the show. Visit us at https://ctin7.com. Music: Besamim (Spices) by Bruce Chalmer, performed by Fyre and Lightning Consort

Happy 2023 from Sexvangelicals! We're excited to preview our January episodes, including the final three episodes of our Seven Deadly Sexual Sins (According to the Church) and a special episode about our visit to the Sigmund Freud Museum in Vienna. Thank you for being part of our journey! Let's heal together!

Sexvangelicals is a podcast about the sex education that the church didn't want you to have. What's the sex education that the church did want you to have? So glad that you asked! Julia and Jeremiah talk about the Seven Deadly Sexual Sins (according to the Church). And you'll notice that they all have one word in common. Don't. In this episode, we talk about the implications and limitations for how the word "don't" can negatively impact sex education, as well as how you can name some "do's" to more effectively communicate what you need. Welcome back to Sunday School! Get some animal crackers, a cup of apple juice, and enjoy the episode!

Sexvangelicals is a podcast about the sex education that the church didn't want you to have. What's the sex education that the church did want you to have? So glad that you asked! Julia and Jeremiah talk about seven key messages about sexuality that the church teaches. And you'll notice that they all have one word in common. Don't. In this episode, we talk about the implications and limitations for how the word "don't" can negatively impact sex education, as well as how you can name some "do's" to more effectively communicate what you need. Welcome back to Sunday School! Get some animal crackers, a cup of apple juice, and enjoy the episode!

Conservative Christianity centers its relationship education around two main themes: A mishmash of ethics from the Sermon on the Mount, the 10 Commandments, and the writings of Paul. The “shoulds” of rigid gender norms We've mentioned before that the church taught us a lot of great values: honesty, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness. However, the church does a poor job at communicating how to navigate these values in the midst of an intimate, (hopefully) egalitarian relationship between two different people. We consider Sexvangelicals to be an adult education center of sorts, providing relationship and sexuality skills to folks who did not grow up in contexts where open dialogue, conflict, and sexual health were encouraged. In this mini-episode, Relationship 101, we reflect on transitions and intentionality. (This is a big theme in Sexvangelicals Season 3.) We discuss two main topics Taking time during transitions (7:00): “We are both driven, ambitious people, and even when we thought we were creating larger buffers than we need, and even when we thought we were moving slowly, we actually needed to move a lot slower.” Julia says when discussing their move to the Netherlands. It's important to recognize when you need to slow down and give yourself permission to actually do so. Learning how to say no (10:00). “When you say no to things, there is a chance that people are going to be upset,” Jeremiah says when discussing his non-profit. Jeremiah notes how the organization does better when they focus on one or two things instead of stretching themselves thin, a lesson that applies to many aspects of life, not just running an organization. This plays into the bigger theme of this episode and season, moving intentionally, within our work, our relationships, and our lives. Julia adds, “Learning to say no has been one of the most challenging, yet rewarding, elements of my personal and professional growth. I don't have to please everyone, because sometimes something as small as saying no to going out with some friends because you're tired can make a world of difference between being exhausted and recovering the next day or being fired up and ready to do what you need to do.” We end the episode by asking a very important question: If you had to go either to the bottom of the ocean or to space for a month with someone (other than the person you're asking this question to) who and why? It's a great question to ask your friend, partner, parent etc. and personally, I (Nicole) would go to space with my best friend, because the ocean scares me. Enjoy this mini-episode! Let's heal together!

A lot has changed in the last two years since we recorded our third episode, when Julia described the intersection between purity culture, Christian school, and the relationship with her body. For instance, we're recording episodes from The Netherlands. We hired Nicole to be our podcast producer (a huge thanks to Nicole for writing these show notes). We've had a ton of hikes and trauma days and travel experiences and conversations. While the events Julia and Jeremiah are reflecting on to start season 3 are the same, we're engaging our stories with fresh perspectives, new information, and expanded contexts. We hope to reintroduce ourselves to you, our listeners, as well as to ourselves, as we reflect on our stories in new ways. In this episode, Julia talks with Jeremiah about the features of her small, insular community of origin in New England, and the ways that they impact her relationship with herself, including: Insider versus outsider (10:00): “The outside world was non-believers. The language piece of this is important,” Julia says to describe the language used to describe those outside her Christian community. She sets up the scene for her community explaining that it was a “rigid” and “literalist interpretation of the Bible.” Fear (15:00): Jeremiah brings up the rapture discussion from the previous episode and how the conversation Julia had with Natasha was probably “very healing.” Julia explains how “fear was a dominant part of my early childhood experiences within Christianity.” Christianity was (and is) a scary thing to grapple with, and this ties back into last week's discussion about how though the idea of the rapture may sound silly now when you are raised to believe it is real, it is a terrifying and real fear. Attachment injury (32:00): “The lack of security that I had growing up and the lack of security that I would not be tormented in hell for the rest of my life,” Julia says when explaining her search for stability and security throughout her life. She says this after explaining the namesake of her high school, Jonathan Edwards, a man who gave a sermon on how we are spiders hanging on by a thread, and God can cut that thread and drop us into hell. Perfectionism (38:00): When continuing the discussion about the school Julia attended, she mentions how her friends and herself would test each other before exams because there was no critical thinking, just memorization. Jeremiah brings up that it “also sets up a really unfortunate competitive relationship between you and your friends.” The perfectionism of Christianity was reflected in the ideology of the school and transmitted into young friendships because perfectionism is taught that it will get you to heaven. Female bodies belonging to the community (48:00): Julia reflects on how she used to write letters to her “future husband” at 11 years old and says, “Before I even had a menstrual cycle I was acutely aware that my body belonged to God, that my body belonged to that community, that my body belonged to men, and that my body belonged to a husband I hadn't even met.” The idea of being a “good Christian girl” is the idea that women are submissive to God and men, and that is the way they must biblically act. We are committed to telling and retelling our stories, regardless of how painful the process is. We would also love to have Sexvangelicals be a platform for sharing your story too. Please contact us for more information! Let's heal together!

Two years ago, Julia and Jeremiah started Sexvangelicals as many podcasters do: By introducing themselves and their stories. As we begin our third season of Sexvangelicals, recording in a brand new country, we want to reintroduce our stories. After all, as we explain, “The human healing process involves telling and retelling our stories. Parts of our perspective and insight change, though the facts and details may be static. The ways we create meaning and alignment with our values is the beautiful part of the story making and storytelling process.” We begin by revisiting Jeremiah's story, which intersects themes of adoption and navigating race and racism as a Brown person in White spaces, including: The evolution of the relationship with Jeremiah's birthmother (26:00): Jeremiah describes the process that his parents used to ensure that he felt as accepted as possible—the Jeremiah Story, which was commonly told before bed. In this story were two heroes: the adoption agency and his birthmother. The relationship changed though when five years ago, he discovered that his birthmother had essentially used the hospital as a safe baby haven. Jeremiah talks about the intensity of his relationship with a woman who he's never met, yet is so important to his story. Abandonment (31:00): Julia observes, “So many people who are adopted hear some version of the story that your birthparent loved you so much that they gave you up. That's an invalidating narrative because what then is the conclusion about what it is to be love? That you could be abandoned. That sets up a negative series of expectations about relationships”. Jeremiah responds, ““The fear of abandonment gets masqueraded for me as a hyper-individualism: I can take care of myself and relationships are nice but I don't need them, because I don't trust that people are going to be there for me in the first place.” The development of mythologies to define identity (33:00): Jeremiah explains, “Because of my closed adoption and classified information around my birthmother; there's a lot that I don't know about myself. So my construction of self has been taking four or five pieces of information and constructing a narrative and mythology around that.” He also describes how this process of creating a story out of minimal pieces of information has been a blessing and a curse, particularly as a communicator. Internalized racism as a child (48:00): In north Dallas, where Jeremiah grew up, Hispanic Americans were the minority group that were most discriminated against. The construction of Jeremiah's elementary school reinforced significant elements of internalized racism. In the gifted and talented classes that he participated in, he was the only Brown person. The children who looked like him were in the “regular kid” or “neighborhood kid” classes, and Jeremiah made many efforts to distance himself from other kids who looked like him. Assimilation as a survival strategy (55:00): Jeremiah defines assimilation as “these really quick mental processes where I pick up on the cues and expectations of the larger system and easily begin to mimic that.” He pleads for more nuance in conversations about antiracism, because “ when I was 7 and doing things that White kids did, I was doing it out of survival and fitting is as much as anything. Being in White spaces was the option for me, and because I as an adopted person wanted to be accepted, I wasn't going to test that.” Adoption has a significant influence on the development of sense of self, communication patterns, and relationship development, and we hope that Jeremiah's story can bring more insight, empathy, and awareness to the challenges that adopted folks confront, especially those who are adopted into families with different races and classes than their natural presentation.

Healing from the abuses of religious communities—both specific churches and the impact from the restrictive social policies that arise from intersection between Evangelical leaders and the Republican Party—can be a long-term process. One of our goals with Sexvangelicals is to introduce you to professionals who can facilitate that healing process. Our first guest of season 3, Jessie Lane, is one of those people. Jessie talks with us about a variety of ways that religion impacts emotional and relational processes, including: The distinction between guilt/accountability and shame (3:00): Julia begins the episode with these definitions: “Shame is the inherent sense that you as a human being at your core are broken, bad, or deviant. Guilt, or accountability, is the sense that I did something that didn't align with my values, which allows us to make relational and behavioral changes that align with our values and perpetuate positive cycles in our lives.” Anxiety as emotional and relational ramifications of American religious processes (9:00): Anxiety, which Jessie describes first as the physiological ways that our bodies respond to stress, such as constricted breathing, the pit in the stomach feeling, and rapid heart rate, is “secondary to something else you're experiencing, such as a lack of congruence between your behavior and lack of values, or an old injury that you're reexperiencing.” In religion, Jessie explains, “it's been one of the best tools for managing people—if I can give you anxiety about your actions, I can control the hell out of you.” The impact of silence on sexual health in religious communities (19:00): We talk a lot about the impact of “Don't”, abstinence only processes, and the scapegoating of queer folks on this podcast. However, silence can have equally damaging ramifications. Jessie explains, “In systems of silence, where sex isn't talked about, you are taught that you don't have a voice and using your voice is wrong. This sets the tone for allowing things to happen to you that you don't want to happen and accommodating to the needs of others because talking about discomfort and wants isn't allowed.” Naming inconsistencies in the dialogue and behavior of religious communities (35:00): Jeremiah describes, “One of the hard things about anger is that criticism as a communication strategy doesn't work—it leads to defensiveness. The Evangelical Church is organizing and empowering itself in response to the defensive role it finds itself in and turning itself into victimhood, that organizes itself as an ‘us against the world'”. Jessie provides an alternative strategy: ”I don't need to feed negative beliefs and can present alternative viewpoints and see how it floats without it being a correction. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just pointing out the internal inconsistencies in the view system. If I can say “You don't agree with your own perspective,” we can have a different conversation.” The dangers of linking love and conformity (45:00): Jessie says, “In the church, love is often based on if you conform to these certain things, like prescribed roles and social norms.” This commonly leads to the following interaction: “You need to be aligned with me in order for me to love you; if you aren't aligned with me, I no longer love you, and it's your fault.” Love is ultimately about being able to accept and celebrate differences. Jessie provides counseling to folks in Massachusetts; if you live in Massachusetts and would like help working through the emotional and relational ramifications of silence, anxiety, and the moral incongruities of religious communities, she's a fantastic resource, and is committed to our larger value: Let's heal together.

Today is our first full day in our new home, Utrecht, The Netherlands. We have been on break for the last few weeks while Julia and I rotate between Dutch Airbnbs, and Nicole has been in Prague filming a documentary. But to celebrate our first official day in Utrecht, we want to also begin season 3. Dobbs v. Jackson could not have been made possible without the relentless influence of the Evangelical, Pentecostal, and Catholic Churches to simplify (in the worst way possible) conversations about pre-natal and reproductive health; as a byproduct, the bodies and sexuality of women (and specifically poor women and/or women of color) will be even further scrutinized by a political party who has shown minimal interest in protecting the sanctity and success of family life outside of its “pro-life agenda”. As such, the time for a podcast such as ours could not be more fitting, and in the inaugural episode of season 3, we reclaim our purpose and mission, and reintroduce ourselves in the process: The interconnectedness of human suffering (5:00): Desmond Tutu is incredibly meaningful to our work, as Julia reminds us with his quote, “"My humanity is caught up, is inextricably bound up, in yours." We belong in a bundle of life. We say, "A person is a person through other persons." Folk libertarianism (8:30): Jeremiah describes his fear of presidential candidate Ron DeSantis, who author Bonnie Kristian (and others) define as a folk libertarian. “It's an anti-authority impulse that wants authority for itself, seeks personal license while denouncing libertinism, carries a ”thin blue line” flag while fighting the Capitol Police, and boasts of being a “live and let live” alternative to left-wing pieties while whipping up panic about how other people behave.” Jeremiah points out the connection between folk libertarian politicians and the 21st century Evangelical Church. Who is this podcast for? (13:00): Julia names “those who have grown up in religiously and politically conservative communities who didn't have good information, training, and education about relationships and sexuality” as our primary audience. “We want to support ourselves and our listeners in better engaging the information that we didn't receive,” she explains. Jeremiah adds that many folks are included in this, even those who didn't grow up in the Church: “But you are more than likely impacted by policies that were highly advocated for by evangelical movements in the 70s and 80s that created abstinence only policies. These have impacted every single state in the US. Our public school systems have done a poor job at talking about positive sex education.” A commitment to defining terminology (29:00): Jeremiah explains, “Many of us didn't grow up with the language around sexuality, a process for consent, having permission to use anatomically correct terms to refer to their genitalia. I want to do whatever we can to get back to the fundamental language and processes. It's important to develop a foundation of what sex means for each of us.” We are excited to have you be a part of our journey in season 3! Let's heal together!

Renowned family therapy Jay Haley said that communication problems commonly occur when people are unable to make transitions from one developmental stage to another. There are transitions that naturally happen, such as when a couple makes an overt decision to enter into a monogamous relationship (or for that matter, an overt decision to be consensually nonmonogamous), or a child enters puberty or leaves home following graduation. And then there are transitions that are chosen, such as our decision to move to the Netherlands, which Julia summarizes, “Being in a country that's chosen to adopt policies that promote sexual and public health reminds me that we have the resources to build a more humane society.” The fact that we've chosen to make this transition hasn't made the adjustment process any easier. In some ways, the psychological and relational challenges with this transition are more acute. Living in a foreign country requires a more vigilant state and ensuing emotional energy, as we're expecting differences in language and culture. Making adjustments to unexpected things, such as dodgy Airbnb hosts and a rapid rearrangement of lodging situations is downright exhausting. Julia and I talk about the following aspects of navigating transitions, eight days into our European adventure, including: Managing expectations (17:00): Jeremiah admits, “I think I had some unrealistic expectations about what we'd be able to do, what our bodies would be able to do, and how much information we'd need to process.” One of the many expectations we'd have to manage was around learning Dutch; we were supposed to begin a two week Dutch course, but were forced to postpone admission due to extenuating circumstances. Communicating a transition (24:00): Directness and overcoming the anxiety of how the other person may respond are two key elements of this. Julia describes, “I'm learning to be more direct. In the past, I would have set up the context for like 25 minutes and very tentatively entered the conversation. I'm proud of myself for saying ‘I'm nervous for bringing this up,' and then bringing it up.” Redefining success (26:00): Julia summarizes, “We realized that this month may be less about exploring and adventures and experiences we had wanted and may be more about sleeping, so that when we go back to work, we may be more sustainable. It may be about doing one or two things per day and doing that as a limit or a reframe of success.” Refining our relationships with control: Jeremiah (29:00): We both like to be in control of our elements. For Jeremiah, being in control of time and logistics is really important. “If I'm able to complete something, I can feel more relaxed. I have a pretty high confidence in myself that I'll be able to figure things out, so I don't typically struggle with disaster scenarios. I've been struggling with disaster scenarios in my time in Europe.” Refining our relationships with control: Julia (39:00): For Julia, being in control of space is especially important. “When I'm overwhelmed I want to know that the space around me suits me, so that the space is as decluttered as possible. I'm learning how to be more flexible when that just can't be the case.” We talk about three strategies for effectively navigating transitions, especially this transition of moving internationally that we've chosen: Respond calmly (43:00): Jeremiah explains that when one partner is able to stay calm if the other person is stressed, the relationship can usually hold itself. Expressing emotions, and looking for similar themes (47:00): Julia describes how our mutual ability to share our emotional landscape creates a story of, “We're going to be fine, and I'm not alone in feeling this.” Naming one or two goals per day (54:00): Julia encourages us (and our listeners) to, “at the end of the day, briefly discuss possibilities for the next day, which is hard for us because we have a huge desire to use our time as wisely as possible. The next few weeks may just be about sleeping and completing one or two tasks.” Thank you for being a part of our Sexvangelicals journey! We're excited to share more from Europe in the next few weeks, and continue with guests starting in July.

I grew up in clashing cultures. My mom and step-dad both being Romanian while raising me in America. When it was time for the “sex talk” at 13 I was shocked by my mom's openness, as Romanian culture is not one defined by sex positivity as it is deeply entrenched in Orthodox Christian values. Reflecting on that talk we had as an adult, I find it incredible that she was able to unpack her own cultural restrictions and have an open and honest conversation with me about contraception, consent, gynecology appointments, and STDs. This is not to say America has a sex-positive culture- it doesn't, but it is to say that being able to communicate with your child about sexuality and sexual health has its benefits. That conversation prepared me to not be riddled with shame when I went on the pill, and not to be embarrassed when buying condoms, it all seemed very normal and proactive to me. This week Jeremiah and Julia explore the intersection of religion and sexuality in different cultural contexts as well as the strength in understanding and communicating values through their conversation with Scotney Young. Scotney Young is the Prevention and Outreach Manager at Doorway, a Domestic and Sexual Violence Response Organization. Here she develops and facilitates educational programming to promote healthy relationships and prevent intimate partner and sexual violence before it ever happens. Scotney is also the Co-Creator of You + Me = We, a queer sex education program for LGBTQ+ Youth. She is also the creator of Boundaries and Doorways a college consent education program. After earning a Masters' in Social Work from Boston University, she started teaching sex education to teenagers in a rural desert town in Peru as a Peace Core volunteer. Scotney also holds a post-graduate certificate in sexual health education from the University of Michigan. She's developed comprehensive sex ed curricula for youth of all ages and service providers, she is also one of only two sex educators certified by the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Consolers, and Therapists in Virginia, and most recently she completed her Anti-Up Certification which focuses on applying various justice and anti-oppression frameworks to sexual health education. (07:35) “I just think young people are so eager to talk about these topics and learn about them, and I personally believe that sexual health and relationship education is really important because everyone should have the knowledge and tools they need to make informed decisions about their bodies, relationships, and futures” Scotney reflects on her time in Peru as a Peace Core volunteer and how she got into her field, she touches on a deeply important topic: that everyone deserves the correct knowledge to make informed decisions. Jeremiah notes how on this podcast conversations deconstructing a lot of incorrect knowledge or narrow perspectives towards sex and sex ed are usually the focus. Scotney then says “I loved being the person who could destigmatize and demystify these topics,” which is truly the goal with Sexvangelicals as well. Sex Education and Different Cultures (15:57) “You have to find ways to share information and tools that fit the context of the lives that they're living in” here Scotney talks about “adjust[ing] the content to adapt to their local cultures” when she worked in various countries. She touches on how in Peru she used biblical teachings to challenge ideas of sexual violence and street harassment and in Afghanistan she volunteered with a program that taught Afghan women how to swim and practice body autonomy through movement. (21:50) “Sexuality is a core part of the holistic being. It's a core part of being a fully actualized human that should be nurtured and tended to and isn't that the same for spirituality?” Scotney says after being asked about the relationship between the field of sexual therapy and religion. There tends to be judgment from the field towards religious groups or religious people, but in reality, it is important to value all parts of a person, including both religion and sexuality: “It would be hard to feel complete if any one of these core parts of our humanity is wrapped up and shamed” (24:08) “I like to distinguish between what is a true religious tenant versus what is a way the structure around the religion might be enforcing that might not even be a religious tenant” Julia talks about distinguishing between the religion in itself and the religious structure, because many times the ideology being pushed by the structure is not in line with the religion itself. (40:40) “When you focus on the behavior as the final outcome of what it is typically speaking when we do that in sex therapy we're inviting anxiety into the conversation” Jeremiah touches on how when we talk about behavior, for example, he mentions “pressuring ourselves to think about orgasm in this cultural norm instead of my [our] own meaning” can be damaging. It's important to find our own values and contexts for these behaviors and actions, and not try to align ourselves with the cultural idea of “orgasms,” or other behaviors, but to understand what it means to us. (41:45) “In what situation is telling someone don't do this with no extra context work? It doesn't work. It's like don't touch that red button and don't tell them why? What's gonna happen when they do it” Scotney gives this example when talking about the issue with abstinence-only education, which enforces a value without an explanation. This is a part of the larger conversation on how parents can impart values to their children in less rigid ways and offer room for conversation, not shame. It's important to have the “why,” because a “don't do this,” does not stand on its own.

Did any of our listeners go to one of the numerous protests against the feared revoking of Roe v. Wade yesterday (May 14)? What was your experience? In the NPR report on reproductive rights rallies, Illinois Lt. Governor Juliana Stratton said it most succinctly: “Here in Illinois, [or insert state here], we trust women.” Put simply, as we discussed in an earlier blog post, revoking Roe v Wade is bad policy. It doesn't actually make abortion go away, but introduces a myriad of negative implications for the physiological, psychological, and sociological health of women. In fact, as western European countries show, increasing access to abortion (and contraception) reduces the numbers of abortion altogether. Julia and Jeremiah explore how the dichotomy between “pro-life” and “pro-choice” completely misses the larger point: How do we support adult women, and the folks they choose to include in their lives, make choices to build healthy families, families that involve and don't involve children? The propaganda around dead babies (7:30): Jeremiah summarizes: “If you want to sell a good idea, put a child's voice behind it, put a picture of a child behind it, better yet, put harm to a child behind it. Because the conversation loses its perspective about policy and morphs exclusively into the emotional world.” The Republican Party has aced the marketing of anti-abortion by centralizing their campaign around “dead babies”, and Americans routinely (and understandably) fall into their traps. If we didn't have souls at Sexvangelicals, we would consider hiring their PR team to market the Sexvangelicals brand. Putting children's health before adult health (16:00): From a systemic perspective, as Jeremiah reminds us, “Children are most likely to succeed in systems with parents with strong mental health, are in strong communities. We have to put more effort into how we support families and the adults who lead them. Providing financial benefits to struggling families, demand that extended maternity and paternity leave protocols are present—those policies are much more likely to lead to life.” Ways liberals get caught in the unhealthy dialogue initiated by conservatives (21:00): Julia explains, “There are women who choose to make an abortion and don't regret choice AND that choice is still complex and holds quite a bit of pain. In combating the “dead baby dialogue”, liberals have not given women the space to explore the complexities of the abortion experience.” The perspective of grief (31:00): Julia observes, “Women who choose to have an abortion often have to hold that, and any ensuing pain they may experience, in secret, which only intensifies their own grief process.” Jeremiah muses, “If you grieve something as a right or wrong choice, we invite shame, guilt, and a warped emotional process. But if we acknowledge abortion and pregnancy loss as grief and create processes that allow for time off following a pregnancy loss, that shifts the discourse. Rage (42:00): Julia exclaims, “I'm trying to not remember how little my body and identity is valued and respected on a systemic and legal level. How on earth is this the standard for living?” We will continue to talk about the impact of potential revocation of Roe v Wade, through blog posts, our own reflections, and interviews with our guests. We hope that Sexvangelicals can be a safe space to explore, grieve, rage, and process the implications of the presumed revocation.

A few weeks ago, the BBC reported that conversion therapy, the development of formalized processes to attempt to change a person's orientation or gender identity to the dominant discourse (cisgendered heterosexuality), has been officially banned in England and Wales. Except this ruling doesn't apply for trans people. The British government continues to leave trans folks open to the dangers of conversion therapy. Let's avoid the conversation about the transitioning process for children and adolescents, which involves legal implications around age of consent and when parents have rights to make decisions for their children, even when those decisions override the desires of their children. These conversations are extremely complicated and involve legal elements that are outside of our scopes of practice as therapists. At Sexvangelicals, we align with a comprehensive community of voices and professionals that condemns conversion therapy directed at all queer communities, including trans folks, in formalized and informalizes settings, including (but not limited to) the team at the Trevor Project, Kristine Stolakis, producer of the Netflix documentary Pray Away, which interviews queer people who have been subjected to conversion therapy, and the American Psychological Association's Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Concerns Office, which published a document that discusses the negative implications of conversation therapy. Conversion therapy uses a mixture of pseudoscience and guilt-directed communication strategies to reinforce a narrative that queerness is a mental health issue (interestingly, something that the APA only moved away from 40 years ago), and we are committed to having Sexvangelicals be a space where queer folks can share their stories of the damaging, long-lasting impacts of conversion therapy. In this episode, Jordon, fellow therapist and professional co-worker of Jeremiah's, shares their experience of navigating conversion therapy connected within their Christian university. They talk with Jeremiah and Julia about: The church's outward identification as a secure attachment (10:00). Jordon describes a childhood with geographic upheaval, and the church gave Jordon “something I needed as a child—secure adult figures, direction, boundaries, the difference between right and wrong”. To communicate their investment in the church, Jordon discloses that they played Jesus in a local VBS. Jordon also learned that this safety is only given to folks who present a sexuality and gender orientation that aligns with their values. Experience of being queer at a conservative Christian university (25:00). Jordon talks about their initial identification as a queer person, stating, “My girlfriend and I realized that if we started to date, we're putting ourselves at risk.” Risks described on the episode included termination as an employee of the university, undue attention from the university administration, and subjection to a process that attempted to change the orientations of Jordon and their partner. The impact of conversion therapy (33:00): The university administration suggested that Jordon and their partner were threats to children, perpetuating an attempt by conservatives to compare queer folks to pedophiles. They mourn, “It took me a really long time to feel like it was safe for me to be around children. I didn't know that it was okay for me to be a therapist to children.” Conversion therapy also encouraged Jordon to avoid the pressure of placating voices in power. “I got smarter and more sure of myself. I became a better self-advocate,” Jordon explains. Identifying with the aggressor (51:00): Jordon uses this term to explain processes by which systems “keep people connected with the security of their attachment figures while also ignoring ways that it violates other people.” Jeremiah shares the ways that he learned to disavow his status as a Hispanic person and assimilate into White spaces as a child in order to avoid the discrimination that other Brown bodies experienced. Julia described a similar process for passing as a straight person. We identify how acknowledging the ways that we identify with the aggressor in the name of maintaining the status quo is the first step toward anti-oppressive justice. Forgiveness and reparations (1:05:00): Jordon describes the complexity of forgiveness: “The truth is that when we make mistakes, I want to caution people that the person who got hurt should “get over it”, or at any point they are entitled to forgiveness.” We explore how forgiveness is a relational process, and the ways that anger and accountability get processes are unique to each relationship. We also discuss reparations. Jordon poses the question, “What would a system of financial payments and taxing churches be, and using those funds to pay for those who have been harmed?” Jeremiah lobbies for an abolishment of the DSM and ICD-10. We're extremely thankful for the wisdom, vulnerability, and courage of Jordon, and are eager to share more stories from folks in the queer community. Let's heal together!

In therapy, we talk about Prochaska's stages of change model. Most of the folks that we work with around sexuality, particularly those who have a religious background, start in either the precontemplative or contemplative stages of change. Not because they don't want to be further down the road, but because the systems they grew up in (read: most church communities) place limitations around sexuality, such as “no sex before marriage” or “no sex with someone of the same sex/gender, keep folks in these early stages. The preparation and action stages of change are only reserved for people who are married, and even then, healthy sexuality often takes years of development, overcoming anxiety, and unlearning unhelpful messages around bodies and sex. If you're single or queer, many religious circles expect you to stay in the precontemplative/contemplative stages of change, meaning coming out as a sexual person (queer or otherwise) has to happen outside of the church walls. Sexvangelicals is a podcast that tells the stories of folks who start at a precontemplative stage about sexuality, either because of a neutral/negative view of sexuality, i.e. a lack of sex education, or a negative or restrictive view of sexuality, such as purity culture, and follows them along the stage of change journey. Some folks operate explicitly in the action/maintenance phase, while other folks have parts of them that are in the contemplative or preparation stage. Wherever you are on this journey, this podcast is for you! On this episode, we take a sneak peek into the action stage of change with our friend Rachel Maine, host of the podcast Owning Your Sexual Self. Rachel's journey started over 9 years ago after a break up that forced her to start choosing herself. This journey lead her to start a business involving sexual education which lead to going back to school for a certificate in sex therapy and sexuality education. In a nutshell, Rachel helps women and couples discover their sexual desires and create intimate, adventurous connections with their partners. She runs a business with Pure Romance and is the CEO of her online sex coaching business. Rachel talks with us about: The importance of using anatomically accurate language (6:30): “There's power behind using anatomically correct terms,” Rachel states. Describing our genitals as penis, vulva, vagina (and knowing the difference between the two), rather than dick, pussy, thingy, or any other fake names, “can help break down the taboo around sex and pleasure.” Starting with sex positivity, rather than starting with sex negativity and moving into sex positivity (20:00): The therapeutic process typically starts with a problem. In the sex therapy world, it's often around sexual desires not aligning, sexual pain, or challenges and anxieties with erections. Rachel hosts parties for women where she starts with describing how to use sex toys and other variations of sexual experimentation, then works backwards, if necessary, to explore the unhelpful narratives around sexuality that folks might have. “It's validation for women. You hear this woman tell you that you're normal, that this is common, and here's how we might be able to fix this. It's important to recognize that you're not alone,” Rachel says. Sexual confidence (27:00): How do you know that you're in a sexually confident place? Rachel describes, “Expanding my horizon when it came to sexual pleasure. I took the time to prioritize myself. When you can start with the most intimate part of your life, you're pretty much guaranteed to see that flow into other parts of your life.” Julia reflects back: “Women have a narrative that “fine” is good enough. I love that you're encouraging folks to not settle in your sexuality.” Navigating between accepting what needs to be accepted and simultaneously not settling (29:30): We talk about two competing perspectives on sexuality: the model where you strive for mind-blowing sex at the expense of settling and the “good enough” sex model, where we also acknowledge the limitations of our bodies and psyches and accept our partners where we are. Jeremiah asks about a both/and approach, to which Rachel introduces the Want/Will/Won't List. She encourages folks to highlight what they want to do and won't do, and then to name sexual activities that they will do (but may not have the highest desire to do), with a mindset that pleasure might come in surprising ways through these activities. She then encourages couples to write these items on a sheet of paper, put them in a jar, draw one of the items, and do what's on the sheet of paper. She adds, “Remember, your desires are going to be changing. So to have the same sex all the time, you're likely to get bored.” Being in control of your own choices (40:00): Rachel's ultimate goals are for people to choose themselves first. She talks about how this starts with decisions that you make in the morning, such as writing or meditating or eating breakfast. She also encourages people to set time aside for self touch, and acknowledges that creating space for masturbation sets people up to create intentional living in a wide variety of domains. Wherever you are on your sexual journey, we hope this episode is informative and inspiring! Let's heal together!

We both went to conservative Christian colleges that had a moderate/high level of commitment to Evangelical sexual values, namely in the exultation of traditional gender roles and the condemnation of sexual activity before marriage. As we've moved out of religious spaces, primarily through the vehicle of the sexual health community, we've lost a lot friendships and relationships along the way. To quote Jesus, “A prophet is not welcome in their own home.” Some have doubled down on their complementary views of gender and sexuality. Others proclaim to be human rights advocates, but resume their anxiety and judgmentality when dialogue shifts to sexual health; the pain from these experiences and losses is often much more severe. I (Jeremiah) sometimes avoid seeking relationships with folks from previous systems because I don't want to be let down. (I recognize this is a growth area.) Every now and then, you find someone who you realize is on a really similar pathway as you. In our case, someone who's committed to self-reflection, living through the grief and losses that happen when you grow up in a repressive system , and reconstructing more open, affirming systems for present and future generations. Erin Baldwin Day is one of those people. Erin is a social entrepreneur, agitator for change, and full-hearted follower in the subversive Way of Jesus who lives, works, and plays on the unceded ancestral lands of the Dena'ina Elnena people in Anchorage, Alaska. She currently serves as lead organizer with Mutual Aid Network of Anchorage (MANA) and is discerning her next steps as a Licensed Local Pastor in the United Methodist tradition. She is presently launching The Spacious Table, a faith community for spiritual refugees, radicals, and misfits of all stripes. You can find her written work at erinbaldwinday.substack.com. Erin has the unique experience of growing up both in the Church of Christ, which, as I say in the episode, “was silent about sexuality, but ran its mouth about gender roles”, and in non-denominational churches that were committed to purity culture values. She shares her experiences navigating and, eventually, extricating herself from these systems: The distinction between a sex-silent (Church of Christ) and a sex-negative religious community (5:30): Erin describes that the more damaging system was “the explicit negativity around desire and pleasure before marriage, and this notion that as a woman, your sexual purity is directly tied to your human worth.” She also regales us with horrifying stories of being compared to an already chewed piece of gum, which “internalized a great deal of shame around my sexual desire. This was layered on top of an existing shame because I was not congruent with the expectations of femininity. I was always the girl with opinions.” Navigating misogyny, reinforced by Biblical literalism, in the Church of Christ (10:00): Erin describes a spiritual gift inventory, which identified strengths in teaching, shepherding, and administration. A male elder at the church said, “This can't be right, because God doesn't give these gifts to women.” Erin explained. “Those words was the first little crack in my faith because I wondered, ‘If that's what God thinks about women, is this a being that I want to relate with?' These boiled down to, ‘Erin, you're too much.' Navigating misogyny, reinforced by Biblical literalism, the College Edition (20:00): I met Erin my freshman year of college, when Erin was running for student body president, and we've remained in contact since then. Erin describes “I got hate mail in my college mailbox when I campaigned for student body president that told me that I was usurping the role of the man, was conniving, had a Jezebel spirit. They were all anonymous notes.” There was also a class for women called “Women in Christian Service”, which Erin equates to learning “how to keep your mouth shut when you disagree with what's happening and use your femininity to manipulate the men around you to do what you wanted them to do through service.” The challenges of deconstructing sexuality as a couple (29:00): I've discussed before that my own marriage disintegrated because deconstructing sexuality happened in separate ways that the other person (sometimes appropriately, sometimes inappropriately) found threatening. Erin describes the beauty and intimacy of deconstructing messages around gender and sexuality with her husband. “We only had each other,” Erin describes. “We would have these experiences around sexism and homophobia together in church and ministry, and would come back home and say “WTF?” Because we shared this gut instinct to go back to Scripture, we could unravel and unwind how we were taught to think about God and the Bible. To do that together in a thoughtful way with my best friend, I couldn't imagine a more amazing way to deconstruct.” Exploring queerness in a Christian community (39:00): Erin went to therapy during college, where she shared her attraction to women with her therapist. The therapist took an unexpected route to get to, sadly, an unexpected outcome. The feedback, as Erin explains, was the queerness was “based on deeply dysfunctional relationship with my mother I had sexualized my need for female nurture, and that was the root of my attraction to women. If I would do the work to forgive and heal my relationship with my mother, then my sexual attraction would go away. And I believed her, because I understood her as an expert, and set about the work of repairing a relationship with my parents.” The expected and unexpected ways that you grieve sexual losses (52:00): Erin describes her experience of her daughter coming out; while there were moments of celebration, she also noticed, “I was jealous of my daughter. I was envious of her freedom to explore her sexuality. There's deep grief in that. As excited as I am that my daughter is growing up free of the restraints and damaging messaging that I grew up with, it is a source of sadness for me, because that is an experience that I can't get back. I cannot reclaim that.” This may be my favorite Sexvangelicals episode, because it speaks to the blend of immense grief, intense bravery, and overwhelming joy that folks who explore sexuality when coming out of a repressive culture (i.e. Evangelical Christianity) experience, often at the same time. If you are one of these people, I'm excited to continue healing with you!

When we've interviewed women to describe their sexual journeys in the first dozen episodes of Sexvangelicals, many of our guests have talked about how they learned to censor their bodies and navigate the double standards of female sexuality (be sexy, but not too sexy, for example), centered around the word “Don't”. The past 50 years has provided more conversation about female sexuality; however, even “progressive fields” (read: sex therapy) have couched descriptions of female sexuality around two flawed assumptions within sociological and sexological research. Dr. Wednesday Martin, author of Untrue: Why Nearly Everything We Believe About Women, Lust, and Infidelity Is Wrong and How the New Science Can Set Us Free , identifies these “sacred cows” as (15:00): Women are less sexual than men. Women are “wired” for monogamy in ways that men are not. “We built an entire civilization around the idea that women are less sexual,” Wednesday explains. Dr. Wednesday Martin is a social scientist, storyteller, and #1 NYT bestselling author. For the last 6+ years, she has studied the newest data on female sexuality, with a focus on female non-monogamy across cultures and species. Her book Untrue has been called “revolutionary” by The Atlantic and “indispensable” by Kirkus reviews. Wednesday writes, in her aptly named introduction, “Meet the Adultress”: “Untrue is a book with a point of view—namely that whatever else we might think of them, women who reject monogamy are brave, and their experiences and possible motivations are instructive. Not only because female infidelity is far from uncommon but also because the fact of it and our reactions to it are useful metrics of female autonomy, and the price women continue to pay for seizing privileges that have historically belonged to men.” Wednesday talks with Julia and Jeremiah about her interdisciplinary approach to studying female sexual desire, autonomy, and the practice of nonmonogamy across cultures and species, including: Her personal experience growing up with atheist parents in Grand Rapids, Michigan, a city that boasts the highest number of churches per square mile in the world. Wednesday states, “I grew up believing that I was going to Hell and sex had something to do with it.” (5:00) What made Wednesday the most angry while conducting her research. Wednesday describes that many doctors, even “sex-positive” ones, have little to no understanding of the female erectile network; as a result, many women have experienced significant damage both physically and emotionally, leading Wednesday to assert that this discrepancy is indicative of the ways that our society does not care about female sexual pleasure. (20:00) A word about nomenclature. Wednesday explains why phrases like “cheating”, “infidelity”, and “consensual/ethical nonmonogamy” are problematic, and her preference for using phrases like “disclosed and undisclosed nonmonogamy". Julia and Jeremiah are convinced to change their language when working with clients. (33:00) The trajectory of female sexual desire. Contrary to the cultural zeitgeist, research suggests that monogamy is more difficult on female libido than male libido. Wednesday suggests that accurate research will give women and their partners options to address this unique part of female sexuality, rather than blaming and shaming women for what is a normal part of their experience. (55:00) The bravery of women who explore their sexuality. Wednesday shares, “I wanted to cross over and better understand all the insights of who women are sexually. I wanted to understand in a non-judgmental way.” Also, in one of the funnier moments of our podcast, Wednesday reacts hilariously to the disclosure of our own affair. We are honored that Wednesday sees the telling of our story as an important and brave step for advancing sexual health for women (and all people). (1:06:00). Wednesday summarizes her position: “It is way beyond time that we stopped using loaded terms to describe a simple fact: Nonmonogamy is a normal, healthy part of the repertoire of females of many species, including female humans. It's very important that we open the door to that conversation.” Check out Wednesday's website, which includes her other books, professional articles, and two Amazon Original Stories, and her fantastic Instagram page. An enormous thanks to Wednesday for taking the time to share her story and wisdom with us. Let's heal together!

Welcome to Sexvangelicals, hosted by sex therapists Julia Postema and Jeremiah Gibson. In the last 50 years, the Christian church has informed our views and practices of sex and sexuality in a number of ways. In the pilot episode, Julia and Jeremiah explore the following: What is sex? What is the role of our bodies? What happens in sex therapy? Join us as we discuss these and other challenging questions. We promise hard, difficult conversations mixed with a lot of laughter and joy. Let's heal together!