Podcasts about tom no

Tom MacWright is a prolific contributor in the geospatial open source community. He made geojson.io, Mapbox Studio, and was the lead developer on the OpenStreetMap editor. He's currently on the team at Val Town. In 2021 he bootstrapped a solo business and created the Placemark mapping application. He acquired customers and found steady growth but after spending two years on the project he decided it was financially unsustainable. He open sourced the code and shut down the business. In this interview Tom speaks candidly about why geospatial is difficult, chasing technical rabbit holes, the mental impact of bootstrapping, and his struggles to grow a customer base. If you're interested in geospatial or the good and bad of running a solo business I think you'll enjoy this conversation with Tom. Related Links Tom's blog Placemark Play Placemark GitHub Placemark archive geojson.io Valtown Datawrapper (Visualization tool) Geospatial Companies mentioned Mapbox ArcGIS QGIS Carto -- Transcript You can help correct transcripts on GitHub. [00:00:00] Introduction Jeremy: Today I'm talking to Tom MacWright. He worked at Mapbox as a, a very early employee. He's had a lot of experience in the geospatial community, the open source community. One of his most recent projects was a mapping project called Placemark he started and ran on his own. So I wanted to talk to Tom about his experience going solo and, eventually having to, shut that down. Tom, thanks for agreeing to chat today. Tom: Yeah, thanks for having me. [00:00:32] Tools and Open Source at Mapbox Jeremy: So maybe to give everyone some context on, what your background was before you started Placemark. Um, let's talk a little bit about your experience at, at Mapbox. What did you work on there and, and what would you say are like the big things you learned from that experience? Tom: Yeah, so if you include the time that I was at Development Seed, which essentially turned into Mapbox, I kind of signed the paper to get fired from Development Seed and hired at Mapbox within the same 20 seconds. Uh, I was there for eight and a half years. so it was a lifetime in tech years. and the company really evolved from, uh, working for Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International and the World Bank and doing these small, little like micro websites to the point at which I left it. It had. Raised a lot of money, had a lot of employees. I think it was 350 or so when I left. and yeah, just expanded into a lot of different, uh, try trying to own more and more of the mapping stack. but yeah, I was kind of really focused on the creative and tooling side of it. that's kind of where I see a lot of the, the fun and programming is making these tools where, uh, they can give people the same kind of fun like interaction loop that programming has where you, you know, you do a little bit of math and you see the result and you're able to just play with, uh, what you're working on, letting people have that in other domains. so it was really cool to figure out how to get A map design tool where somebody changes the background color and it just automatically changes that in your browser. and it covered like data editing. It covered, um, map styling and we did, uh, three different versions of that tool over the years. and then Mapbox is also a company that was, it came from, kind of people who are working on the Howard Dean campaign. And so it was pretty ideological and part of the ideology was being pretty hardcore about open source. we hired a lot of people who were working on open source projects before and basically just paid them to work on the open source projects, uh, for their whole time there. And during my time there, I just tried to make as much of my work, uh, open as possible, which was, you know, at the time it was, it was pretty great. I think in the long term it's been, o open source has changed a lot. but during the time that we were there, we both kind of, helped things like leaflet and mapnik and openstreetmap, uh, but also made like some larger contributions to the open source world. yeah, that, that's kind of like the, the internal company facing side. And also like what I try to create as like a more of a, uh, enduring work. I think the open source stuff will hopefully have more of a, a long term, uh, benefit. [00:03:40] How open source has changed (value capture by large companies) Jeremy: When I was working on a project that needed offline maps, um, we couldn't use Google Maps or any of the, the other publicly available, cloud APIs. So yeah, we actually used a, a tool, called Tile Mill that I, I hadn't known that you'd worked on, but recently found out you did. So that actually let us pull in OpenStreetMap data and then use this style, uh, language called carto to, to basically let us choose what the colors would be and how the different, uh, the roads and the buildings would look. What's kind of interesting to me is that it being open source really let us, um, build something we otherwise wouldn't have been able to do. But like, at the same time, we also didn't pay Mapbox any money. (laughs) So I'm, I'm kind of curious, like, if it's changed, like what the thinking was in terms of, you know, we pay for people to build all these things. We make it open source. but then people may just not ever pay us, you know, for all these things we did. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I think that the main thing that's changed since the era of tilemill is, the dominance of cloud platforms. Like back then, I think, uh, Mapbox was still using, we were using like a little bit of AWS but people were still just on like VPSs and, uh, configuring things in cPanel and sometimes even running their own servers. And the, the danger of people using the product for free was such a small thing for us. especially when tile Mill was also funded by the Knight Foundation, so, you know, that at least paid half of my salary for, or, well, sorry, probably, yeah, maybe half of my salary for the first year that I was there and half of three other people's salaries. but that, yeah, so like when we built Tile Mill, a few companies have really like built on those same tools. Uh, there's a company called Carto coincidentally, they had the same name as Carto CSS, and they built on a lot of the same stack they built on mapnik. Um, and it was, was... I mean, I'm not gonna say that it was all like, you know, sunshine and roses, but it was never a thing that we talked about in terms of like this being a brutal competition between us and these other startups. Mapbox eventually closed source some stuff. they made it a source available license. and eventually Mapbox Studio was a closed source product. Um, and that was actually a decision that I advocated for. And that's mostly just because at one point, Esri, Microsoft, Amazon, all had whitelisted versions of Mapbox code, which, uh, hurts a little bit on a personal level and also makes it pretty hard to think about. working almost like it. You don't want to go to your scrappy open source company and do unpaid labor for Amazon. Uh, you know, Bezos can afford to pay for the labor himself. that's just kind of my personal, uh, that I'm obviously, I haven't worked there in a long time, so I'm not speaking for the company, but that's kind of how it felt like. and it yeah, kind of changed the arithmetic of open source in this way that. It made it less fun and, more risky, um, for people I think. [00:07:11] Don't worry about the small free users Jeremy: Yeah. So it sounds like the thinking was if someone on a small team or an individual, they took the open source software and they used it for their own projects, that was fine. Like you expected that and didn't worry about it. It's more that when these really large organizations like a, a Microsoft comes in and, just like you said, white labels the software, and doesn't really contribute significantly back. That's, that's when it, the, the thinking sort of shifted. Tom: Yeah, like a lot of the people who can't pay full price in USD to use your product are great users and they're doing cool stuff. Like when I was working on Placemark and when I was like selling. The theme for my blog, I would get emails from like some kid in India and it's like, you know, you're selling this for a hundred dollars, which is a ton of money. And like, you know, why, why should I care? Why shouldn't I like, just send them the zip file for free? it's like nothing to me and a lot to them. and mapping tools are really, really expensive. So the fact that Mapbox was able to create a free alternative when, you know, ArcGIS was $500 a month sometimes, um, depending on your license, obviously. That's, that's good. You're always gonna find a way for, like, your salespeople are gonna find a way to charge the big companies a lot of money. They're great at that. Um, and that's what matters really for your, for the revenue. [00:08:44] ESRI to Google Maps with little in-between Jeremy: That's a a good point too about like the, my impression of the, the mapping space, and maybe this has changed more recently, but you had the, probably the biggest player Esri, who's selling things at enterprise prices and then there were, or there are like a few open source options. but they feel like the, the barrier to entry feels a little high. And so, and then I guess you have stuff like Google Maps, right? That's, um, that's very accessible, but it's pretty limited, so. There's this big gap, it feels like right between the, the Esri and the, the Google Maps and open source. It's, it's sort of like, there's almost like there's no sweet spot. guess May, maybe it's just because people's uses are so different, but I'm, I'm not sure, um, what makes maps so unique in that way Tom: Yeah, I have come to understand what Esri and QGIS do as like an extension of what CAD is like. And if you've used CAD software recently, it's just as crazy and as expensive and as powerful. and it's really hard to capture like the people who are motivated enough to make a map but don't want to go down the whole rabbit hole. I think that was one of the hardest things about Placemark was trying to be in the middle of those things and half of the people were mystified by the complexity and half the people wanted more complexity. Uh, and I just couldn't figure out how to get it to the right in between spot. [00:10:25] Placemark and its origins in geojson.io Jeremy: Yeah. So let's, let's talk a little bit about Placemark then, in terms of from its start. What was your, your goal with Placemark and, and what was the product itself? Tom: So the seed of the idea for Placemark, uh, is this website called geojson.io, uh, which is still around. And, Chris Fong (correction -- Whong) at, at Mapbox is still, uh, developing it. And that had become pretty useful for a lot of people who I knew in the industry who were in this position of managing geospatial data but not wanting to boot up ArcGIS uh, geojson.io is based on, I just tweeted, I was like, why? Why is there not a thing where you can edit data on a map and have a GeoJSON representation and just go Back and forth between the two really easily. and it started with that, and then it kind of grew to be a little bit more powerful. And then it was just a tool that was useful for everyone. And my theory was just that I wanted that to be more useful. And I knew just like anything else that you build and you work on for a long time, you know exactly how it could be so much better. And, uh, all the things that you would do better if you did it again. And I was, uh, you know, hoping that there was something where like if you make that more powerful and you make it something that's like so essential that somebody's using every day, then maybe there's some some value in that. And so Placemark kind of started as being like, oh, this is the thing where if you're tasking a satellite and you need a bounding box on a specific city, this is the easiest way to do that. Um, and it grew a little bit into being like a tool for collaborating because people were collaborating on it. And I thought that that would be, you know, an interesting thing to support. but yeah, I think it, it like tried to be in that middle of like, not exactly Google my Maps and certainly a lot, uh, simpler than, uh, QGIS or ArcGIS Jeremy: something I noticed, so I've actually used geojson.io as well when I was first learning how to put stuff on a map and learning that GeoJSON was a format that a lot of things were using, it was actually really helpful to, to be able to draw, uh, polygons and see, okay, this is how the JSO looks and all that stuff. And it was. Like just very simple. I think there's something like very powerful about, websites or applications like that where it, it does this one thing and when you go there, you're like, oh, okay, I, I, I know what I'm doing and it's, it's, uh, you know, it's gonna help me do the, this very specific thing I'm trying to do. [00:13:16] Placemark use cases (Farming, Transportation, Interior mapping, Satellite viewsheds) Jeremy: I think with Placemark, so, one question I would have is, you gave an example of, uh, someone, I think you said for a satellite, they're, are they drawing the, the area? What, what was the area specifically for? Tom: the area of interest, the area where they want the, uh, to point the camera. Jeremy: so yeah, with, with Placemark, I mean, were there, what were some of the specific customers or use cases you had in mind? 'cause that's, that's something about. Um, placemark as a product I noticed was it's sort of like, here's this thing where you can draw polygons put markers and there's all these like things you can do, but I think unless you already have the specific use case, it's not super clear, who uses it for what. So maybe you could give some examples of what you had in mind. Tom: I didn't have much in mind, but I can tell you what people, what some people used it for. so some of the more interesting uses of it, a bunch of, uh, farming oriented use cases, uh, especially like indoor and small scale farming. Um, there were some people who, uh, essentially had a bunch of flower farms and had polygons on the map, and they wanted to, uh, mark the ones that had mites or needed to be watered, other things that could spread in a geometric way. And so it's pretty important to have that geospatial component to it. and then a few places were using it for basically transportation planning. Um, so drawing out routes of where buses would go, uh, in Luxembourg. And, then there was also a little bit of like, kind of interesting, planning of what to buy more or less. Uh, so something of like, do we want to buy this tract of land or do we wanna buy this tract of land or do we wanna buy access to this one high speed internet cable or this other high speed internet cable? and yeah, a lot of those things were kind of like emergent use cases. Um, there's a lot of people who were doing either architecture or internal or in interior mapping essentially. Jeremy: Interior, you mean, inside of a building Tom: yeah. yeah. Jeremy: Hmm. Okay. Tom: Which I don't think it was the best tool for. Uh, but you know, people used it for that. Jeremy: Interesting. Yeah. I guess, would people normally use some kind of a CAD tool for that, or Tom: Yeah. Uh, there's CAD tools and there are a few, uh, companies that do just, there's a company that just does interior maps especially of airports, and that's their whole business model. Um, but it's, it's kind of an interesting, uh, problem because most CAD architecture work is done with like a local coordinate system, and you have like very good resolution of everything, and then you eventually place it in geo geospatial space. Uh, but if you do it all in latitude and longitude, you know, you're, you're moving a door and it's moving the 10th or 12th decimal point, and eventually you have some precision problems. Jeremy: So it's almost like if you start with latitude and longitude, it's hard to go the other way. Right? you have to start more specific and then you can move it into the, the geospatial, uh, area. Tom: Yeah. Uh, that's kind of why we have local projections for towns is that you can do a lot of work just in that local projection. And the numbers are kind of small 'cause your town's small, relatively. Jeremy: yeah, those are kind of interesting. So it sounds like just anytime somebody wants to, like you gave the example of transportation planning or you want to visually see where things are, like your crops or things like that, and that, that kind of makes sense. I mean, I think if you just think about paper maps, if somebody wants to sketch something out and, and sort of track the layout of something, this could serve the same purpose but be editable. and like you said, I think it's also. Collaborative so you can have multiple people editing the same, um, map. that makes sense. I think something that I believe I saw on your website is you said though that it was, it's like an editing tool, but it's not necessarily a visualization tool. Uh, I'm kind of curious what you, what you meant by that. [00:17:39] An editing tool that allows you to export data not a visualization tool Tom: Yeah, I, when you say a map, I think there's, people can interpret that as everything from raw data to satellite imagery and raster data. and then a lot of it is like, can I use this to make a choropleth map of the voter turnout in our, in my country? and that placemark did a little bit, but I think that it was, it was never going to be the, the thing that it did super well. and so, yeah, and also like the, the two things kind of, don't mesh all that well. Like if you have a scale point map and you have that kind of visualization of it and then you're editing the points at the same time and you're dragging around these like gigantic points because this point means a lot of population, it just doesn't really make that much sense. There are probably ways to square that circle and have different views, but, uh, I felt like for visualizations, I mean partly I just think data wrapper is kind of great and uh, I had already worked for observable at that point, which is also, which I think also does like great visualization work. Jeremy: Would that be the case of somebody could make a map inside a placemark and then they would take the GeoJSON and then import that into another visualization tool? Is that what you were kind of imagining people would do? Tom: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Jeremy: And I could see from the customer's perspective, a lot of them, they may have that end, uh, visualization in mind. So they might look for a tool that kind of just does both. Right. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Certain people definitely, wanted that. And yeah, it was an interesting direction to go down. I think that market was going to be a lot different than the people who wanted to manage and edit data. And also, I, one thing that I had in mind a lot, uh, was if Placemark didn't work out, how much would people be burned? and I think if I, if I built it in a way that like everyone was heavily relying on the API and embeds, people would be suffer a lot more, if I eventually had to shut it down. every API that you release is really a, a long-term commitment. And instead for me, like guilt wise, having a product where you can easily export everything that you ever did in any format that you want was like the least lock in, kind of. Jeremy: Yeah. And I imagine the, the scope of the project too, you're making it much smaller if you, if you stick to that editing experience and not try to do everything. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I, the scope was already pretty big. as you can tell from the open source project, it's, it's bigger than I wish it was. the whole time I was really hoping that I could figure out some niche that was much more compact. there's, I forget the name, but there's somebody who has a, an application that's very similar to Placemark in. Technical terms, but is just a hundred percent focused on planning septic systems. And I'm just like, if I just did this just for septic systems, like would that be a much, would that be 10,000 lines of code instead of 40,000 lines of code? And it would be able to perfectly serve those customers. but you know, that I didn't do enough experimentation to figure that out. Um, I, that's, I think one thing that I wish I had done a lot more was, pivot and do experiments. Jeremy: that septic example, do you know if it's a, a business in and of itself where it can actually support one person or a staff of people? Or is it, is that market just too small? Tom: I think it's still a solo bootstrapped project. yeah. And it's, it's so hard to tell whether a company's doing well or not. I could ask the person over DM. [00:21:58] Built the base technology before going public Jeremy: So when you were first starting. placemark. You were, you were doing it as a solo, developer. A solo entrepreneur, reallyyou worked on it for quite a while, I think before you announced, right? Like maybe a year or so? Tom: Yeah, yeah. Almost, almost a year, I think, maybe, maybe 10 months in the dark. Jeremy: I think that there's, there was a lot of overlap between the different directions that I would eventually go in and. So just building a collaborative editor that can edit map data fairly quickly and checks all the boxes of being able to import and export things, um, that is, was a lot of work. and I mean also I, I was, uh, freelancing during part of it, so it wasn't a hundred percent of my time. Tom: But that, that core, I think even now if I were to build something similar, I would probably still use that work. because that, whether you're doing the septic planning application or you're doing a general purpose kind of map editor or some kind of social application, a lot of that stuff will be in common. Um, and so I wanted to really get, like, to figure out that problem space and get a few solutions that I could live with. Jeremy: The base. libraries or technologies you were gonna pick to get the map and have the collaborative aspect. Those are all things you wanted to get settled first. And then you figured, okay, once I have this base, then I can go find the, you know, the, the, the customers or, or find the specifics of what I'm gonna build. Tom: Yeah, exactly. Jeremy: I I think you had said that going forward when you're gonna work on another project, you would probably still start the same way. [00:23:51] Geospatial is a tough industry, no public companies Tom: if I was working on a project in the geospatial space, I would probably heavily reference the work that I already did here. but I don't know if I'll go back to, to maps again. It's a tough industry. Jeremy: Is it because of the, the customer base? Is it because like people don't really understand the market in terms of who actually needs the maps? I'm kind of curious what you feel makes it tough. Tom: I think, well there are no, there are no public mapping companies. Esri is I think one of the 10 largest private companies in the us. but it's not like any of these geospatial companies have ever been like a pure play. And I think that makes it hard. I think maps are just, they're kind of like fonts in a way in which they are this. Very deep well of complexity, which is absolutely fascinating. If you're in it, it's enough fun and engineering to spend an entire career just working on that stuff. And then once you're out of it, you talk to somebody and you're just like, oh, I work on this thing. And they're like, oh, that you Google maps. Um, or, you know, I work at a font type like a, you know, a type factory and it's like, oh, do you make, uh, you know, courier in, uh, word. It's really infrastructure, uh, that we mostly take for granted, which is, that's, that means it's good in some ways. but at the same time, I, it's hard to really find a niche in which the mapping component is that, that is that useful. A lot of the companies that are kind of mapping companies. Like, I think you could say that like Strava and Palantir are kind of geospatial companies, both of them. but Strava is a fitness company and Palantir is a military company. so if you're, uh, a mapping expert, you kind of have to figure out what, how it ties into the real world, how it ties into the business world and revenue. And then maps might be 50% of the solution or 75% of the solution, but it's probably not going to be, this is the company that makes mapping software. Jeremy: Yeah, it's more like, I have this product that I'm gonna sell and it happens to have a map as a part of it. versus I'm going to sell you, tools that, uh, you know, help you make your own map. That seems like a, a harder, harder sell. Tom: yeah. And especially pro tools like the. The idea of people being both invested in terms of paying and invested in terms of wanting to learn the tool. That's, uh, that's a lot to ask out of people. [00:26:49] Knowing the market is tough but going for it anyways Jeremy: I think the things we had just talked about, about mapping being a tough industry and about there being like the low end is taken care of by Google, the high end is taken care of by Esri with ArcGIS. Uh, I think you mentioned in a blog post that when you started Placemark you, you, you knew all this from the start. So I'm kind of curious, like, knowing that, what made you decide like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go for it and, you know, do it anyways. Tom: uh, I, well, I think that having seen, I, like I am a co-founder of val.town now, and every company that I've worked for, I've been pretty early enough to see how the sausage is made and the sausage is made with chaos. Like every company doesn't know what it's doing and is in an impossible fight against some Goliath figure. And the product that succeeds, if it ever does succeed, is something that you did not think of two or three years in advance. so I looked at this, I looked at the odds, and I was like, oh, these are the typical odds, you know, maybe someday I'll see something where it's, uh, it's an obvious open blue water market opportunity. But I think for the, for the most part, I was expecting to grind. Uh, you know, like even, even if, uh, the odds were worse, I probably would've still done it. I think I, I learned a lot. I should have done a lot more marketing and business and, but I have, I have no regrets about, you know, taking, taking a one try at solving a very hard to solve problem. Jeremy: Yeah, that's a good point in that the, the odds, like you said, are already stacked against you. but sometimes you just gotta try it and see how it goes, Tom: Yeah. And I had the, like I was at a time where I was very aware of how my life was set up. I was like, I could do a startup right now and kind of burn money for a little while and have enough time to work on it, and I would not be abandoning an infant child or, you know, like all of the things that, all the life responsibilities that I will have in the near future. Um. So, you know, uh, the, the time was then, I guess, [00:29:23] Being a solo developer Jeremy: And comparing it to your time at Mapbox and the other startups and, and I suppose now at val.town, when you were working on Placemark, you're the sole developer, you're in charge of everything. how did that feel? Did you enjoy that experience or was it more like, I, I really wish I had other people to, you know, to kind of go through this with, Tom: Uh, around the end I started to chat with people who, like might be co-founders and I even entertained some chats with, uh, venture capital people. I am fine with the, the day to day of working on stuff alone of making a lot of decisions. That's what I have done in a lot of companies anyway. when you're building the prototype or turning a prototype into something that can be in production, I think that having, uh, having other people there, It would've been better for my mentality in terms of not feeling like it was my thing. Um, you know, like feeling detached enough from the product to really see its flaws and really be open to, taking more radical shifts in approach. whereas when it's just you, you know, it's like you and the customers and your email inbox and, uh, your conscience and your existential dread. Uh, and you know, it's not like a co-founder or, uh, somebody to work with is gonna solve all of that stuff for you, but, uh, it probably would've been maybe a little bit better. I don't know. but then again, like I've also seen those kinds of relationships blow up a lot. and I wanted to kind of figure out what I was doing before, adding more people, more complexity, more money into the situation. But maybe you, maybe doing that at the beginning is kind of the same, you know, like you, other people are down for the same kind of risk that you are. Jeremy: I'm sure it's always different trade offs. I mean, I, I think there probably is a power to being able to unilaterally say like, Hey, this is, this is what I wanna do, so I'm gonna do it. Tom: Yeah. [00:31:52] Spending too much time on multiplayer without a business case Jeremy: You mentioned how there were certain flaws or things you may not have seen because you were so in it. Looking back, what, what were some of those things? Tom: I think that, uh, probably the, I I don't think that most technical decisions are all that important, um, that it never seems like the thing that means life or death for companies. And, you know, Facebook is still on PHP, they've fought, fixed, the problem with, with money. but I think I got rabbit holed into a few things where if I had like a business co-founder, then they would've grilled me about like, why are we spending? The, the main thing that comes to mind, uh, is real time multiplayer, real time. It was a fascinating problem and I was so ready to think about that all the time and try to solve it. And I think that took up a lot of my time and energy. And in the long term, most people are not editing a map. At the same time, seeing the cursors move around is a really fun party trick, and it's great for marketing, but I think that if I were to take a real look at that, that was, that was a mistake. Especially when the trade off was things that actually mattered. Like the amount of time, the amount, the amount of data that the, that could be handled at. At the same time, I could have figured out ways to upload a one gigabyte or two gigabyte or three gigabyte shape file and for it to just work in that same time, whereas real time made it harder to solve that problem, which was a lot closer to what, Paying customers cared about and where people's expectations were? Jeremy: When you were working on this realtime collaborative functionality, was this before the product was public? Was this something you, built from the start? Tom: Yeah. I built the whole thing without it and then added it in. Not as like a rewrite, but like as a, as a big change to a lot of stuff. Jeremy: Yeah, I, I could totally see how that could happen because you are trying to envision people using this product, and you think of something like Google Docs, right? It's very powerful to be typing in a document and see the other cursors and, um, see other people typing. So, I could see how you, you would make that leap and say like, oh, the map should, should do that too. Yeah. [00:34:29] Financial pressures of bootstrapping, high COL, and healthcare Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and, you know, Figma is very cool. Like the, it's, it's amazing. It's an amazing thing. But the Figma was in the dark for way longer than I was, and uh, Evan is a lot smarter than I was. Jeremy: He probably had a big bag of money too. Right. Tom: Yeah. Jeremy: I, I don't actually know the history of Figma, but I'm assuming it's, um, it's VC funded, right? Tom: Uh, yeah, they're, they're kind of famous for just having, I don't think they raised that much in the beginning, but they just didn't hire very much and it was just like the two co-founders, or two or three people and they just kept building for long time. I feel like it's like well over three years. Jeremy: Oh wow. Okay. I think like in your case, I, I saw a comment from you where you were saying, this was your sole source of income and you gotta pay for your health insurance, and so you have no outside investments. So, the pressures are, are very different I think. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And that's really something to on, to appreciate about venture capital. It gives you the. Slack in your, in your budget to make some mistakes and not freak out about it. and sadly, the rent is not going down anytime soon in, in Brooklyn, and the health insurance is not going down anytime soon. I think it's, it's kind of brutal to like leave a job and then realize that like, you know, to, to be admitted to a hospital, you have to pay $500 a month. Jeremy: I'm, I'm sure that was like, shocking, right? The first time you had to pay for it yourself. Tom: Yeah. And it's not even good. Uh, we need to fix this like that. If there's anything that we could do to fix entrepreneurship in this country, it's just like, make it possible to do this without already being wealthy. Um, it was, it was a constant stress. [00:36:29] Growth and customers Jeremy: As you worked on it, and maybe especially as you, after you had shipped, was there a period where. You know, things were going really well in terms of customers and you felt like, okay, this is really gonna work. Tom: I was, so, like, I basically started out by dropping, I think $5,000 in the business bank account. And I was like, if I break even soon, then I'll be happy. And I broke even in the first month. And that was amazing. I mean, the costs were low and everything, but I was really happy to just be at that point and that like, it never went down. I think that probably somebody with more, uh, determination would've kept going after, after I had stopped. but yeah, like, and also The people who used Placemark, who I actually chatted with, and, uh, all that stuff, they were awesome. I wish that there were more of them. but like a lot of the customers were doing cool stuff. They were supportive. They gave me really informative feedback. Um, and that felt really good. but there was never a point at which like the, uh, the growth scale looked like, oh, we're going to hit a point at which this will be a sustainable business within a year. I think it, according to the growth when I left it, it would've been like maybe three years until I would've been, able to pay my rent and health insurance and, live a comfortable life in, in New York. Jeremy: So when you mentioned you broke even that was like the expenses into the business, but not for actually like rent and health insurance and food and all that. Okay. Okay. can you say like roughly how much was coming in or how many customers you had? Tom: Uh, yeah, the revenue initially I think was, uh, 1500 MRR, and eventually it was like 4,000 or so. Jeremy: And the growth was pretty steady. [00:38:37] Bootstrapping vs fundraising Tom: Um, so yeah, I mean, the numbers where you're just like, maybe I could have kept going. but it's, the other weird thing about VCs is just that I think I have this rich understanding of like, if you're, if you're running a business that will be stressful, but be able to pay your bills and you're in control of it, versus running a startup where you might make life changing money and then not have to run a business again. It's like the latter is kind of better. Uh, if stress affects you a lot, and if you're not really wedded to being super independent. so yeah, I don't know between the two ways of like living your life, I, I have some appreciation for, for both. doing what Placemark entailed if I was living cheaply in a, in a cheap city and it didn't stress me out all the time, would've been a pretty good deal. Um, but doing it in Brooklyn with all the stress was not it, it wasn't affecting my life in positive ways and I, I wanted to, you know, go see shows at night with my friends and not worry about the servers going down. Jeremy: Even putting the money aside, I think that's being the only person responsible for the app, right? Probably feels like you can't really take a vacation. Right. Tom: Yeah, I did take a vacation during it. Like I went to visit my partner who was in, uh, Germany at the time, and we were like on a boat, uh, between Germany, across the lake to Switzerland, and like the servers went down and I opened up my laptop and fixed the servers. It's just like, that is, it's a sacrifice that people make, but it is hard. Jeremy: There's, there's on call, but usually it's not just you 24 7. Tom: Yeah. If you don't pick up somebody else [00:40:28] Financial stress and framing money spent as an investment Jeremy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess at what point, because I'm trying to think. You started in 2021 and then maybe wrapped up, was it sometime in 2024? Tom: Uh, I took a job in, uh, I, I mean I joined val.town in the early 2023 and then wrapped up in November, 2023. Jeremy: At what point did you really start feeling the, the stress? Like I, I imagine maybe when you first started out, you said you were doing consulting and stuff, so, um, probably things were okay, but once you kind of shifted away from that, is that kind of when the, the, the worries about money started coming in? Tom: Yeah. Um, I think maybe it was like six or eight months, um, in. Just that I felt like I wasn't finding, uh, like a, a way to grow the product without adding lots of complexity to it. and being a solo founder, the idea of succeeding, but having built like this hulking mess of a product felt just as bad as not succeeding. like ideally it would be something that I could really be happy maintaining for the long term. Uh, but I was just seeing like, oh, maybe I could succeed by adding every feature in QGIS and that's just not, not a, not something that I wanted to commit to. but yeah, I don't, I don't know. I've been, uh, do you know, uh, Ramit Sethie he's like a, Jeremy: I don't. Tom: an internet money guy. He's less scummy than the rest of them, but still, I. an internet money guy. Um, but he does adjust a lot of stuff about like, money psychology. And that has made me realize that a lot of what I thought at the time and even think now is kind of a rational, you know, like, I think one of the main things that I would do differently is just set a budget for Placemark. Like if I had just set away, like, you know, enough money to live on for a year and put that in, like the, this is for Placemark bucket, then it would've felt better to me then having it all be ad hoc, month to month, feeling like you're burning money instead of investing money in a thing. but yeah, nobody told me, uh, how to, how to think about it then. Uh, yeah, you only get experience by experiencing it. Jeremy: You're just seeing your, your bank account shrinking and there's this, psychological toll, right? Where you're not, you're not used to that feeling and it, it probably feels like something's wrong, Tom: Yeah, yeah. I'm, I think it, I'm really impressed by people who can say, oh, I invested, uh, you know, 50 or a hundred thousand dollars into this business and was comfortable with that risk. And like, maybe it works out, maybe it doesn't. Maybe you just like threw a lot of money down into that. and the people, I think with the healthy, productive, uh, relationship with it. Do think of it as like, oh, I, I paid for kind of a bet on a risk. and that's, that's what I was doing anyway. You know, like I was paying my rent and my health insurance and spending all my time working on the product instead of paying, uh, freelance work. but if you don't frame it that way, it doesn't feel like an investment. It feels like you're making a risky gamble. Jeremy: Yeah. And I think that makes sense to, to actually, I think, like you were saying, have a separate account or a separate thing set aside where you are like, this is, this is this money for this purpose. And like you said, look at it as an investment, which with regular investments can go down. Tom: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Jeremy: Yeah [00:44:26] In hindsight might have raised money or tried smaller bets Jeremy: Were there, there other things, whether technical or or business wise, that, that if you were to to do it again, you would do differently? Tom: I go back and forth on whether I should have raised venture capital. there are, there's kind of a, an assumption in venture capital that once you're on it, you have to go the whole way. You have to become a billion dollar company, uh, or at least really tell people that you're going to be a billion dollar company and I am not. yeah, I, I don't know. I've seen, I've seen other companies in my space, or like our friends of my current company who are not really targeting that, or ones who were, and then they had somewhere in between the billion dollar and the very small outcome. Uh, and that's a little bit of a point in the favor of accepting a big pile of money from the venture capitalists. I'm also a little bit biased right now because val.town has one investor and he's like the, the best venture capitalist that I have ever met. Big fan. don't quote me on that. If he sacks me in like a year, we'll see. Um, but uh, yeah, there, I, I think that I understand more why people take that approach. or I've understood more why people take like the venture capital but not taking $300 million from SoftBank approach. yeah, and I don't know, I think that, trying a lot of things also seems really appealing. Uh, people who do the same kind of. of Maybe 10 months, but they build four or five different products or three different products instead of just one. I think that, that feels, feels like a good idea to me. Jeremy: And in doing that, would that be more of a, like as a solo entrepreneur or you, you're thinking you would take investment and then say, I'm gonna try all these things with, with your money. Tom: Oh, I've seen both. I, that I, yeah, one friend's company has pivoted like four times between very different ideas and yeah, it, it's one way to do it, but I think in the long term, I would want to do that as a solo developer and try to figure out, you know, something. but yeah, I, I think, uh, so much of it is mindset, that even then if I was working on like three different projects, I think I. My qualifications for something being worth, really adopting and spending all my time doing, you just have to accept, uh, a lot of hits and a lot of misses and a lot of like keeping things alive and finding out how to turn them into something. I am really inspired by my friends who like started around the same time that I did and they're not that much further in terms of revenue and they're like still, still doing it because that is what they want to do in life. and if you develop the whole ecosystem and mindset around it, I think that's somewhere that people can stay and, and be happy. just trying to find, trying to find a company that they own and control and they like. Jeremy: While, while making the the expenses work. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. that's the, that's the hard part, like freelancing on the side also. I probably could have kept that up. I liked my freelance clients. I would probably still work with them as well. but I kind of just wanted the, I wanted the focus, I wanted the motivation of, of being without a net. Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, energy wise, do you think that that would've worked? I mean, I imagine that Placemark took a lot of your time when you were working full time, so you're trying to balance, you know, clients and all your customers and everything you're doing with the software. It just feels like it might be a lot. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Maybe with different freelance clients. I, I loved my freelance clients because I, after. leaving config. I, I wanted to work on climate change stuff and so I was working for climate change foundations and that is not the way to max out your paycheck. It's the way to feel good about your conscience. And so I still feel great about those projects, but in the future, yeah, I would probably just work for, uh, you know, a hedge fund or something. [00:49:02] Marketing to developers but not potential customers Jeremy: I think something you mentioned in one of your posts is that you maybe could have spent more time or had a different approach with marketing. Maybe you could kind of say what you did do and then what maybe worked and what didn't. Tom: Yeah. So I like my sweet spot is writing documentation and blog posts and technical stuff. And so I did a lot of that and a lot of that like worked in a way that didn't matter. I am at this point, weirdly good at writing stuff that gets on Hacker News. I've written a lot of stuff that's gotten to the top of Hacker News and unfortunately, writing about your technical approach and your geospatial project for handling errors, uh, in your JavaScript code is not really a way to get customers. and I think doing a lot of documentation was also great, but it was also, I think that the, the thing that was missing is the thing that I think Mapbox does fairly well now, in which the homepage really pushes you toward use cases immediately. and I should have been saying to each customer who had anything compelling as a use case, like, let's write an article about you and what you're doing, and here's how you use this in your industry. and that probably would've also been like a good, a good way to figure out which of those verticals was the one that was most worth spending all the time on. yeah. So it, it was, it was a lot of good marketing to nerds. and it could have been better in terms of marketing to actual customers and to people who are making the buying decisions. Jeremy: Yeah. Looking at the, the Placemark blog, I can definitely see how as a developer, a lot of the posts are appealing to me, right? It's about how you worked on a technical challenge or decisions you made, but maybe less so to somebody who they wanna. Draw a map to manage their crops. They're like, I don't care about any of this. Right. Tom: Yeah, like the Mapbox blog used to be, just all that stuff as well. We would write about designing protocol buffer layouts, and it was amazing for hiring and amazing for getting nerds in the door. But now it's just, Toyota is launching with, Mapbox Maps or something like that. And that's, that's what you, you should do if you're trying to sell a product. Jeremy: Yeah. And I think the, the sort of technical aspect, it makes sense too. If you're venture funded and you are looking to hire, right? You wanna build your team and you just want to increase like, the amount of stuff you're building and not worrying so much about, am I gonna have a paycheck next Tom: Yeah. Yeah. I, I just kind of do it because it's fun, which is not the right reason to do it, but, Yeah, I mean, I still write my blog mostly just because it's, it's a fun thing to do, but it's not the best way to, um, to run a business. Jeremy: Yeah. Well, the fun part is important too though. Tom: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's maybe the whole thing. May, that's maybe the most important thing, but you can't do it if you don't do the, the money part. [00:52:35] Most customers came from existing audience Jeremy: Right. So the people who did find you, was it mostly word of mouth from people who did identify with the technical posts, or were there places that surprised you, that people found you? Tom: Uh, a lot of it was people who were familiar with the Mapbox ecosystem or with, with me. and then eventually, yeah, a few of the users came in through, um, through Hacker News, but it was mostly, mostly word of mouth also. The geospatial community is like fairly tight and it's, and it's not too hard to be the person who writes the article about some geospatial challenge that everyone finds. Jeremy: Hmm. Okay. Yeah, that's a good point about like being in that community, especially since you've done so much work in geospatial and in open source that you have this little, this built-in audience, I guess. Tom: yeah. Which I appreciate. It makes me nervous, but yeah. [00:53:43] Val.town marketing to developers Jeremy: Comparing that to something like val.town, how is val.town marketing? How is it finding users? 'cause from what I can tell, it's, it's getting a lot of, uh, a lot of people coming in, right? Tom: Yeah. Uh, well, right now our, our kind of target user, or the user that we think of is a hobbyist, is somebody who's, sometimes a pro developer or somebody, sometimes just somebody who's really interested in the field. And so writing these things that are just about, you know, programming, does super well. Uh, but it, we have exactly the same problem and that that is kind of being revamped as we speak. uh, we hired somebody who actually knows marketing and has a good sense for it. And so a lot of that stuff is shifting to show you what you can do with val.town because it, it suffers from the same problem as well. It's an empty text field in which you can type, type script, code, and it runs. And knowing what you can do with that or what you should do with that is, is hard if you don't have a grasp of TypeScript and web applications. so pretty soon we'll have pages which are like, here's how to connect linear and GitHub with OW Town, or, you know, two nouns connect them, for all of those companies and to do automations and all these like concrete applications. I think that's, you have to do it. You have to figure it out. Jeremy: Just briefly for someone who hasn't heard of val.town, like what, what does it do? Tom: Uh, val.town is a social website, so it has comments and likes and all of that stuff. but it's for writing these little snippets of TypeScript and JavaScript code that run. So a lot of them are websites, some of them are automations, so they receive emails or send emails or connect one service to another. And yeah, it's, it's like combining some aspects of, GitHub or like a code platform, uh, but with the assumption that every time that you save, everything's instantly deployed. Jeremy: So it's maybe a little bit like, um, like a glitch, I guess? Tom: Uh, yeah. Yeah, it takes a lot of experience, a lot of, uh, inspiration from Glitch. Jeremy: And I, I think, like you had mentioned, you enjoy writing the, the technical blog posts and the documentation. And so at least with val.town, your audience is developers versus, the geospatial community who probably largely doesn't care about, TypeScript and the, the different technical decisions there. Tom: Yeah, it, it makes it easier, that's for sure. The customer is, is me. [00:56:30] Shifting from solo to in-person teams Jeremy: Nice. Yeah. Looking at, you know, you, you worked as a, a solo developer for Placemark, and then now you've got a team of, is it like maybe five Tom: Uh, it is seven at the moment. Jeremy: Seven people. Okay. Are you all in person or is it, remote Tom: We all sit around two tables in Brooklyn. It's very nice. Jeremy: So how did that feel? Like shifting from, I'm in, I don't know if you worked from home while you were working on Placemark or if you were in coworking spaces, but you're, you're shifting from I'm like in my own head space doing everything myself to, to, I'm in a room with all these people and we're like working on this thing together. I'm kind of curious like how that felt for you. Tom: Yeah, it's been a big difference. And I think that I was just talking with, um, one, one of our, well an engineer at, at val.town about how everyone kind of had, had been working remote for obvious pandemic world reasons. And this kind of privilege of just being around the same table, if that's what you like is, a huge difference in terms of, I just remember having to. Trick myself into going on a walk around the block because I would get into such a dark mental head space of working on the same project for eight hours straight and skipping lunch. and now there's a little bit more structure. yeah, it's, it's been, it's been a overall, an improvement. Some days I wish that I could go on a run at noon 'cause that's the warmest time of the day. but, uh, overall, like it makes things so much easier. just reading the emotions in people's faces when they're telling you stuff and being able to, uh, not get into discussions that you don't need to get into because you can talk and just like understand each other very quickly. It's, it's very nice. I don't wanna force everyone to do it, you know, but it it for the people who want it, they, they, uh, really enjoy it. Jeremy: Yeah. I think if you have the right set of people, it's definitely more enjoyable. And um, if you don't, maybe not so Tom: Yeah, we haven't hired any, like, extremely loud chewers yet or anything like that, but yeah, maybe my story will change. Jeremy: No, no one microwaving fish. Tom: No, there's, uh, yeah, thankfully the microwave is outside of the office. Jeremy: Do you live close to the office? Tom: Yeah. Yeah. Like most of the team is within a 20 or 30 minute walk of the office and it's very fortunate. I think there's been something of a mass migration to New York. A lot of us didn't live in New York before four years ago, and now all of us do. it's, it's, uh, it's very comfortable to be here. Jeremy: I think that makes, uh, such a big difference. 'cause I think the majority of people, at least within the US you know, you're, you're getting in your car, you're sitting in traffic. and I know people who, during the pandemic, they actually moved further, right? Because they went, oh, like, uh, I don't need to come into the office. but yeah, if you are close enough where you can walk, yeah, I think that makes a big difference. Tom: Oh yeah. If I had to drive to work, I think my blood pressure would be so much higher. Uh, especially in New York. Oh, I feel so bad for the people who have to drive, whereas I'm just walking with, you know, a bagel in hand, enjoying listening to the birds. Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. well now they have, what is it, the congestion pricing in Tom: Yeah. Yeah. We're all in Brooklyn, so it doesn't affect us that much, but it's supposedly, it's, it's working great. Um, yeah. I hope we can keep it. Jeremy: I've never driven in New York and I, I wouldn't want to Tom: Yeah. It's only for the brave or the crazy. [01:00:37] The value of public writing and work Jeremy: I think that's probably a good place to, to wrap up, but is there any other thoughts you had or things you wanted to mention? Tom: No, I've just, uh, thank you so much. This has been, this has been a lot of fun. You're, you're very good at this as well. I feel like it's, uh, Jeremy: Thank you Tom: It's not easy to, to steer a conversation in a way that makes awkward people sound, uh, normal. Jeremy: I wouldn't say that, but um, what's been actually pretty helpful to me is, you have such a body of work, I guess I would say, in terms of your blogging and, just the amount that you write and the long history of projects that, that there's, you know, there's a lot to talk about and I'm sure it helps, helps your thought process as well. Tom: Yeah. I, I've been lucky to have a lot of jobs where people, where companies were like, cool with publishing everything, you know? so a lot of what I've done is, uh, is public. it's, it's, uh, I'm very, very thankful for like, early on that being a big part of company culture. Jeremy: And you can definitely tell, I think for people who look at the Placemark blog posts or, or now your, your val.town blog posts, like there's, there's a clear difference when somebody like is very intentional and, um, you know, it's good at writing versus you're doing it because, um, it's your corporate responsibility or whatever, like people can tell. Yeah. Tom: Yeah. You can't fake being interested. so you gotta work on things that are interesting. Jeremy: Tom, thanks again for, for agreeing to chat. This was fun. Tom: Yeah thank you so much.

Tomáš Nožka

The stage is set, the mic is on, and the cue is yours. In this episode, stand-up comic and voice actor Tom Sawyer shares his golden nuggets for aspiring voice talents hoping to benefit from the power of comedy. From the importance of having fun in the booth to taking a well-deserved break, and the power of belief in oneself, Tom is a reservoir of invaluable insights. We talk about standing out in a sea of talents, catching the ears of the right casting person, and the art of continuous learning. But remember, feedback is the breakfast of champions, and as Tom says, it's all about enhancing your performance. Get ready, it's showtime! About Tom   Tom Sawyer ran lengendary San Francisco comedy club, Cobb's for over 30 years. After stepping away from the comedy business, Tom was encouraged to explore voice acting by after famed comedian and voice actor Carlos Alazraqui (Rocco's Modern World, the Taco Bell Chihuahua) who knew Tom was an excellent celebrity impersonator. Tom signed with JE Talent in San Francisco and Aperture Talent in Los Angeles in 2017, and the rest is history. https://kitcaster.com/tom-sawyer/ 0:00:01 - Announcer It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss, a V-O boss. Now let's welcome your host, Ann Gangusa.  0:00:20 - Anne Hey everyone, welcome to the V-O Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza and today I am super excited to be here with very special guest actor, comedian, entrepreneur oh my God, the list goes on Tom Sawyer. Tom ran the legendary San Francisco Comedy Club Cubs for over 30 years booking legendary greats, and this list just goes on and on, but I'll give you just a few of them Jerry Seinfeld, dana Carvey, Bob Saget, Jim Carrey, Rita Rudner, Joe Rogan, Sarah Silverman and the list just goes on. He stayed on as a booker until 2012 and then ultimately stepped away from the comedy business. After that, he was encouraged to explore voice acting by famed comedian and voice actor Carlos Ellsrocki, a good friend of his. He signed on with JE Talent in San Francisco and Aperture Talent in LA in 2017, and the rest, they say, is history.  But boy, we've got a lot of history I'd like to talk to you about, tom. Thank you so much for joining us and welcome. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. So, gosh, there's so many things I want to start with. I mean the first tell. You have such a large history of comedy, so, of course, I'm sure a very common question you get asked is were you a funny kid, or have you always loved comedy? What is it that drew you to comedy?  0:01:44 - Tom Well, yeah, I was the kid in the back of the class making all the other kids laugh, so that was where I started and I always did impressions. So when I was a kid I was doing Don Adams from Get Smart and Ed Sullivan and Richard Nixon and you know, it's probably a little weird seeing an eight-year-old doing Richard Nixon but that's what I was doing. When I was very young I realized I could do voices and never stopped and that's what kind of led me to voiceover when I got out of the comedy club business.  0:02:15 - Anne But boy, there was a long history of being in the comedy business. I label you as entrepreneur 20 times over because I think just following that passion of yours and then ultimately opening up a club that literally was just famed and just housing some of the comedy greats. Tell me a little bit about that history. I mean, that is just so, so fun and impressive.  0:02:36 - Tom Yeah, actually, I went to San Francisco to become a stand-up comic and there were all these clubs, the Punchline and the Holy City Zoo and the other cafe. They were very packed all the time and getting stage time there was next to impossible. Or you'd get on at one o'clock in the morning in front of a very tired, very small, very drunk audience. And then there was this little.  0:02:55 - Anne Sometimes that helps, I'm not sure Mostly doesn't, oh okay.  0:03:00 - Tom But there was this little club in the Marina District in San Francisco called Cobb's Pub and they were trying to do comedy there and there was no audience, but there was stage time. You could get on stage there. In fact, sometimes you couldn't get off stage because there was no one there to take over, so you had to stretch, stretch and that was terrifying sometimes. Especially if you're the third or fourth comic going, hey, where are you from? And the audience goes we all know where we're from, so stop asking.  0:03:29 - Anne That's so funny. I just wanted to say that a lot of my actor friends I feel like being on that comedy stage is like a rite of passage almost, and it's probably I would think one of the toughest things to do is to stand on stage like that and try to make people laugh. I mean, that's just to me it's comedy without a net. Yeah, exactly.  0:03:48 - Tom And the thing is it's like you're stuck there, literally. You have an allotted time that you have to perform and they give you 10 minutes. You have to do 10 minutes, doesn't matter if it's horrible right from the word jump, you're on stage for those 10 minutes. That's the time you have to do and that's one of the things you learn right away is like if you get on stage early.  you're not going to get back on stage. So you have to go through the rite of passage of bombing, and I've seen comics bomb from Paula Poundstone, kevin Meany, kevin Nealon, the list goes on and on. Every comic has bombed. But even later on you get in front of an audience that just doesn't dig you.  0:04:27 - Anne And again, nowhere to go. You can't run off the stage.  0:04:31 - Tom You're mean, I get that.  0:04:38 - Anne And it's funny because I literally I just went to a comedy club a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking about that, like what do you do? I mean, they are there until the next comedian is called on stage. And it feels interesting as being a part of the audience, because a lot of times I think, as the audience, you are part of maybe not part of the act, but it's very interactive, it's very back and forth and engaging because, of course, you're trying to make us laugh.  0:05:02 - Tom Yeah, you have to communicate to the audience without really engaging the audience, because you're the boss on stage, you're kind of like the crowd master and you're crowd control and entertainment at the same time. And because comedy, some people feel like, oh, I'm going to be as funny as the comic.  0:05:22 - Anne And that's when things get really sideways.  0:05:24 - Tom You're there to be entertained. Sit back, relax and leave the talking or the driving to the person with the microphone.  So you got some stage time on Cobbs and and then I realized that I just kept seeing these shows that weren't very good. The guy who was booking the club at the time wasn't doing a great job, and I was a big fan of stand up as well. So I started thinking about what I would do instead, and then I started telling the owner at the time first owner of Cobbs. I was telling him you know, here's what I would do differently, and then I could tell him at the beginning of the show how the show was going to fail. And then he was started realizing that everything I was saying was happening and he went what do I get to lose? We're doing horrible business. And so he gave me the job of booking and from there I started getting the people I really, really like to perform and it started going great and we went from being like about 20% capacity to 90% capacity in about a year.  0:06:23 - Anne So let me ask you a question that, to me, is very interesting how do you get, at the time, the talents that you booked? I mean, they were big names. Were they big names then? And how did you get them to book? I mean, that's a skill, right? It's something that we do in our businesses every day, right? We've got to try to get clients to like us and to work with us. So how did you do that? Did you have a secret?  0:06:42 - Tom Yeah, my secret was I paid really well.  0:06:45 - Anne Okay, okay, that's a good piece.  0:06:48 - Tom My biggest competition, which was twice the size of our club. We were out paying that Because we decided that the most important thing was getting butts in the chairs and the only way to do that was having acts that actually brought an audience. So the only way to do that was to offer these guys more of an opportunity to make more money. So we would give them a percentage of the door and say, hey, the more people come to see you, the more you're gonna make. And because of that we had people that would call up and go, hey, I'm gonna be on the Tonight Show in six weeks with Johnny Carson, do you have anything open? And I would move stuff around and get them in there and then I would get a Tonight Show plug or a Letterman plug or Arsenio Hall. At the time and that was kind of my thing was I'm gonna pay everybody. Really well, so everybody could. Percentage of the door.  In the early days before all the big agencies came in, sure, and remember this was at a time where there were just like a couple agencies doing personal appearances for comedians. Comedians were pretty much on their own. They were doing their business themselves. So if I wanted Bob Sagan, I'd call Bob Sagan, so I get his number from another comic and everybody was kind of looking for each other and I would bring one comic in. They'd go, hey, you should book these guys. And I go, okay, great, and call them up. And they'd go, right, when can you give them me a date? And I'd give them a date. Plus, we flew people up and we put them up in the hotels. So we didn't personally make a ton of money. That wasn't my thing. My thing was having the best shows I could possibly have and making a name right.  And making a name for the club?  0:08:24 - Anne Absolutely, and that's interesting because, again, I like to talk about the entrepreneurial business side of what we do as creatives and freelancers, and there's a lot of thinking outside the box and also recognizing the value of the talent, that if you wanna put out great work, then you wanna hire a talent that's amazing and great and pay them fairly and absolutely. And so talk to me a little bit about the networking aspect. I mean, the cash is a good draw, but you also had to communicate effectively, I would say, to really book these talent.  0:08:58 - Tom Well, the thing that separated me from everybody else, besides being generous with the money that was brought in, was that I knew what they were going through, no matter what it was going on on stage. If they were dealing with a heckler, I'd gone through that as a comedian. If they were bombing, I knew that pain, so I could empathize with them, I could be their counselor, I could give them advice. I looked at it like I wasn't really a good comedian, and mainly that was because I wasn't true to who I am personally. So my mantra after that was be yourself.  0:09:32 - Anne I love that.  0:09:33 - Tom Yeah, that's who I wasn't. I was trying to fit in and have everybody like me and that really affected the quality of my stand up because I wasn't being true to me. So that was my mantra to everybody be yourself. Because nobody can take that away from you.  0:09:49 - Anne That's so interesting because I never ventured into comedy myself. However, I find that people find me the most funny when I am being my dorky self and I'm making mistakes and I'm just being oops, sorry, and I think in voiceover as well. I wanna talk more about that. I think it's all about being authentic and being yourself and that's really, I think, what connects you to people and engages you to people and endears you to people.  0:10:14 - Tom Yeah, I think it's really important when you get a job, and especially if it's somebody you want to get more bookings from play around, have fun. I mean, I booked a video game and the first thing we did we went through several of the lines I had to do and then we went through all those and I just did just the lines, basically no acting or anything like that and they went. Yep, that's about it. I went great, thank you.  0:10:33 - Anne Love it, love it, bye, bye.  0:10:35 - Tom So everybody started laughing. It loosens everybody up and that's really it's just. Don't be a pain on the ass. Realize that you're always learning. They're always learning. Everybody's a professional too, and so be courteous and nice and smart and be entertaining. You are the talent, so show some talent as a professional as well.  0:10:53 - Anne Show some talent. I love that. So talk about in the transition while booking talent. So you did that for a very long time, I mean 30 years, and so, wow, I mean, was there a point? I mean, were you just so busy for 30 years Did you think about voiceover? Was that a thought in your head or something that you would do, or you just were completely. You loved running the club and booking talent.  0:11:18 - Tom Prior to moving to San Francisco, I lived in Florida, lived in Sarasota, Florida, and I did a lot of theater there.  That's why, I fell in love with theater and acting. You know, I always thought like, oh, stand up might be a good gateway to getting into acting, but then I got into the business end of it. So I didn't really think about it until I got out and I didn't know what I was gonna do. And I was talking to Carlos and he said dude, you do so many voices and stuff. You'd be great at voice acting.  Cause I've always done impressions, never stopped doing impressions. In fact I would teach other people like Kevin Pollack or something, if they had an oppression and they couldn't figure it quite out. They were doing it but they weren't quite right. We'd kind of jam and help them get there, or they would help me get there and we'd all do our really weird outside the box impersonations. You'd have to spend five minutes explaining who that guy is Right right right.  0:12:07 - Anne So you can't do that one.  0:12:09 - Tom But for comics, we love doing those, especially impersonators, impressionists, we love doing those for other impersonators. It was kind of like our jazz moment, you know, where you get to jam behind the scenes with another musician.  0:12:20 - Anne Absolutely.  0:12:21 - Tom So Frank Calliendo, I had the club, and Dana Carvey, of course, was the master of the not perfect impression, but getting the perfect funny it didn't matter, that's what his genius is. Bye, you know, is finding the perfect funny to any voice. And then Tom Kenny played. The club started at Cobbs as well Again, the guy who did so many crazy voices. It was another inspiration for me to move there, and every once in a while I talked to him, cause I'll get a audition for something that I know is directing or in, so I go heads up and he's going dude.  I have nothing to do with casting, you know sometimes they cast people and I'm scratching my head. So yeah, but I'll put in a good word for you.  0:12:58 - Anne So Well, hey again, networking totally helps. Now comedy skill. I think comedy is a skill and art form. What are your thoughts on that?  0:13:07 - Tom I mean cause, oh, absolutely.  0:13:08 - Anne Yeah, it's not something that I can go on a stage and execute.  0:13:11 - Tom Yeah, it's like anything else I personally believe.  my philosophy is we all have a gift somewhere along the line. We might not be in a position ever to know what that gift is, but we all have a gift and sometimes there are people out there have more than a couple fair, but there's also people who just don't ever find theirs. And I think that the idea is you know to try to discover who you are and your strengths, weaknesses. Stay away from those weaknesses and hurdle towards your strengths, you know, and don't get locked up into one thing to always be on the road to discovery.  0:13:42 - Anne I guess I want to ask you first of all about once you got into voice acting and then was it like you were always wanting to book a certain genre because you've had lots of characters inside of you that wanted to come out? Or did you find any of the genres outside of character Interesting, because I'm a believer that you're a character in just about everything you do, even if you're doing e-learning.  0:14:05 - Tom Yeah, I always try to find a person, even when it's just one of those hey, you're a dad, or hey, you're a regular guy. Or I just had an audition yesterday where you're just a regular father, you know it's regular. But the line said something else, you know. So I gave one as what they were saying and then one. That's what I felt the lines were doing. It was a subtle difference, but it was a difference that maybe whoever put this together wants to see. If somebody figured it out, or they didn't know that's where they were going and they don't know. Sometimes they don't even know until they hear it.  So give them what you think they want, and then give them what they say they want.  0:14:39 - Anne So interesting. I guess I would talk to you then about writing right, especially now that you've transitioned in voice acting and you're given a script right, or you're given an audition and finding the humor. Sometimes there's subtleties in that humor, sometimes it's obvious. Are there telltale signs to look out for? And then, once you do see it, is there a specific way that you feel it should be performed? Should it be performed in the obvious way? Or maybe, if you wanna capture the ear of the casting director, you do something different?  0:15:08 - Tom Well, I think you know what you do with a couple takes is you do the one that's on the page and then you do the one that where you think they go or where you can go with it to show what you can bring to the party. I always like to find the humor in something, especially if it says it's humorous, you know, and then play around with it and add a little bit, do a little improv with it, find a little spontaneity into there, or sometimes I'll even rewrite a line, cause I think it's kind of like flat, so I'll make it a little funnier. A punchier.  0:15:36 - Anne Okay, now that gives me a segue into a question In terms of with the script, in terms of improv right For an audition, are you improving in the audition and or improving the line, and at what point do you feel that people may go too far if you're completely rewriting, or do you think that's offensive maybe?  0:15:54 - Tom I think you have to be pretty subtle in rewriting. I think you do run the risk of people going why do I bother sending you a script? Cause you're adding all this stuff to it. So you pick and choose your moments. You know I've done that before, I've added jokes. But I'll listen to it again and go okay, that's a little too much. Plus, I want to have them. I don't want the person thinking after the third one, is he gonna go back to the script or what you know. So I wanna pick and choose my moments and make sure that I think of the funniest, the ones that have the most oomph. You want them to land, and so era on the side of too few than too many.  0:16:33 - Anne Let's talk about character development for you, especially because you're an impressionist. So how can you take, let's say, and you don't necessarily wanna have a character that's just after a particular person, but you wanna develop it into your own character. Is there a formula or a process for that, in terms of developing new characters?  0:16:51 - Tom Well, I have a book of all the impersonations I do, well, a book with the impersonations I do. And then I have like one that's like the ones I do pretty right on, and the ones I do that are just kind of soft. I don't really have it down, but that's great because it's a character.  0:17:07 - Anne Do you have a number for that? Somebody wants to have how many characters in their arsenal, how many to build off of.  0:17:13 - Tom Every day that I can figure out how to do a different celebrity or something like that. I write it down in the book Cause it comes to you sometimes. I mean, when I figured out how to do Robin Williams, it just was an accident. It's one of those things where you find a word and all of a sudden. Then you find a place in your throat and you're doing it and you can't stop.  0:17:32 - Anne It's crazy so it just never stops. I love it, I love it.  0:17:37 - Tom So one day I did Robin for Robin and that didn't go so well, apparently I didn't know he doesn't like his voice, apparently being impersonated. You didn't like that. No, it's really a very awkward Cause. I thought it'd be a lot of fun.  0:17:50 - Anne Yeah, and that's interesting because I'm curious about that. You know, celebrities like their voices impersonated, or now we've got a whole another, a whole another digital thing to be thinking about, when voices might be impersonated or turned into right With synthetic voices. But that might be another podcast.  0:18:10 - Tom That's a little scary.  0:18:11 - Anne That's a scary one, absolutely.  0:18:13 - Tom The thing about it is is like the flaws, like, let's say, go back to Dana Carvey, cause again there aren't many that he does right on, he'll leave me be the first to admit it. He's not like somebody like Frank Caliendo, who's just like amazing. He's verbatim, you can hear the voice. He's somebody who can do a sound alike. Dana could never do a sound alike, but he gets people's caricature down. That's the thing is it's like, and that's kind of what makes it funny is the imperfections is going up, finding those words.  I just, you know, I used to do Bruce Stern and a lot of people kind of forgot who he was, and then one day I just was doing it for somebody to just start laughing Cause they didn't even remember who that Bruce Stern was. But it's just his voice is funny, you know, cause he has a kind of voice like that and it's very inquisitive either. Everything goes up at the end Doesn't make a darn gosh darn bit of difference, and not sometimes he gets crazy. But and so you find those little imperfections actually make a character and make it really funny. That's what I like to do. You know, I did a animation pilot and it was like a hippie character and I was going through a bunch of voices with a writer cause they booked me and they didn't feel like they wanted to do something different with it. They said what can you do? And I was going through my book and I started doing Nick Nolte and they loved it and then you ended up going with that over what they originally had, with me doing it.  0:19:37 - Anne So I love how you have a book with everything written down. Now, do you also have audio files that go along with that, so that you can help yourself get into words?  0:19:45 - Tom Yeah, I have one where it's all my impressions, so that way I can go back. And how do I do that? One Cause I don't practice them all the time. Cause.  0:19:54 - Anne I have life.  0:19:55 - Tom So, and I don't want to be walking around talking to myself, of course, of course. Man, it's got so many voices.  0:20:00 - Anne So are you writing down then the name and then you write down the qualities of the characteristics or how you get into it. Is it a kick phrase? Maybe that gets you into the character.  0:20:10 - Tom Well, there's certain words, for example, you know, I came up with for Christopher Walk and I came up with the word pantaloon being the perfect Christopher Walken word. I'm thinking cowbell but that's yeah, cause. Well, that's, this is before cowbell yeah, before cowbell.  0:20:26 - Anne But pantaloon automatically gets me there. I love it. I love it Cause I say it.  0:20:33 - Tom I can't help but do more. Christopher Walken, who doesn't like a nice pair of pantaloons?  0:20:43 - Anne I love it. I love it.  0:20:44 - Tom Cause you want your calves exposed. So yeah, and then with Kurt Douglas, it was horse, oh Horse, okay, I'm going to read my horse. If I say horse, I go into Kurt Douglas Well.  0:21:01 - Anne I think there's something always so obviously so entertaining, but something that just draws people to comedy. What are your thoughts about this crazy, chaotic world that we live in today, and where does comedy sit now, I mean, in terms of how important is it?  0:21:17 - Tom I think comedy is as important as it ever was. And it's in a weird place right now, cause I think a lot of people are reacting to people saying words and there's a lot of people getting offended easily and comedy is not for those folks that have thin skin, both sides of it.  I find it funny that I think a lot of comics right now have thin skin as far as getting some criticism back, cause it's also about growth. What was funny in 1970, if you listened to comedy in 1970 or the 80s, it's not as funny now. In some of it's just not funny at all. We grow, we expand, we move on, and to me, that's what's great about comedy is it's about adapting. You're always adapting. You're always growing, as you should be as a person. So to me, if you're moving the ball forward constantly in your life, you're gonna be a better person than you were 10 years ago. So why not take that to comedy? Absolutely, the things that were funny like 15, 20 years ago are real cringy right now, and it's not because they weren't funny back then. They were. It's the same reason I get upset with people who go back like 20 years and go. I can't believe you said that back then.  0:22:28 - Anne Well, back then that wasn't offensive.  0:22:30 - Tom Exactly, we didn't find that offensive back then. Now we've all grown up and we've all moved on a bit and we understand that's not the same. But don't punish me for something that was okay Back then. Mark Twain, who wrote a famous book about a guy named Tom Sawyer, had a lot of cringy stuff in his books. There's still masterworks of literature, but those were the times. We have to accept. That's where those books came and there were a reflection of those times. Same way we would stand up. So to me it's just about. Everybody just needs to grow up. Everybody needs to understand where everybody was back then and where they are now and be better for them.  0:23:06 - Anne Yeah, yeah. Do you find that you miss owning a comedy club or booking talent or having that in your life?  0:23:12 - Tom I miss working with young comics. That's the thing I miss the most and it was actually when I started. The last version of Cubs when it exists now, because it's a 400-seat room has really amazing acts, but they're much bigger acts and they generally bring their own acts with them, and comedians who can bring their own acts generally don't bring really really great acts because they don't want to have to work as hard. I would make comics work hard because I would have really good acts going on before them.  Sure, so they have to try to continually stand tall, so they had to keep their game. My thing was like Interesting strategy. I like that yeah yeah, absolutely Nobody could coast. And then later on it was comics they would bring in.  I didn't think they were as talented as some of the people I could book with these guys, and so I wasn't really working with the comics anymore as much as I used to, and so that's one of the things about smaller room is you can get to work with younger comics and you get to tell them the dos and the don'ts and hopefully guide them to a path where they can be their best selves on stage. Sure, that part I miss.  0:24:14 - Anne And actually, speaking of that, what sort of advice would you give to voice talent out there that want to continually up their game and stay on top of the voiceover game, because, boy, it's competitive out there, super competitive.  0:24:27 - Tom It's crazy, it's crazy.  0:24:29 - Anne Like just as I'm sure it was in comedy and being in the club. It's such a mental game a lot of the times too.  0:24:34 - Tom Yeah, the nice thing about voiceover having been a stage actor very early in my life is you don't see the person who you're auditioning for, so you don't see that look, as soon as you hit the stage, that you've already lost your audition. You're not the person they're looking for, and that's so disheartening sometimes so at least you go into every audition with this could?  0:24:56 - Anne be the one.  0:24:57 - Tom And I love auditioning, so I love going into another character or finding something I haven't found before, or even sometimes there's a couple of characters I do that I think, oh man, this one is definitely gonna find a home someplace. It's just a matter of getting in front of the right casting person hearing it. So I'll bring out those guys every now and then, when it's the right opportunity for those characters, cause they're like they're my buddies. I want them to succeed. Yeah, I think just have fun in the booth is the main thing, and if you need to take a break, tell your agent I need to take a break. I mean, I talked to other voice actors and it gets a little depressing. Everybody came in this business thinking that everybody always said I should be in voice acting and everybody always said this is what I should be doing and I did it and nothing's happening.  0:25:43 - Anne Yeah, what's your advice for that? Because that becomes like a mind game. It becomes like oh my God, I've done all this work, what else can I do? I mean, what would you suggest in terms of getting work? It seems like the question I get most often as a coach is like so all right, I've got this great demo now and had this great coaching, and so now, where's the work? How do I get the work? Or how do I stand out?  0:26:04 - Tom I think the thing about it is acting as a lottery. You're buying a lottery ticket is what you're doing. I mean, carlos Alice Rocky was a comic Lucky, had a job, state entertainment state creative, but it was getting the Taco Bell, chihuahua and all those people you auditioned from and he hit it, hit the lottery, you know so, and from there he's done so many other things. But when I say who Carlos Alice Rocky is, when I bring him up, I always go the Taco Bell, chihuahua guy and they go oh, I love that. So it's the same thing where you just go, my lottery ticket is gonna come and you're gonna believe in yourself.  When you believe in your talent and talk to other people in the business too. Just do classes I think it's still a good idea to do, just as even a workout session. Plus, you get some inspiration from other people who have a different style, maybe that you see something in yourself or you bring out something in yourself you didn't know was there. So I would say, take a class every now and then network with other people who just to have support, just so, hey, I'm here for you when you're down on yourself, in the same way that if I need somebody to talk to and say, hey, I'm really kind of wondering what the hell I'm doing here.  And they can talk you down from being sad or lift your spirits up and let you know you're really a talented person. That's why you got into this whole thing in the first place.  0:27:16 - Anne Yeah, I think that self-sabotage can happen to the best of us even.  0:27:20 - Tom And then sometimes you'll hear it in the reads. I mean, again, I'll go into a class and you can tell the person who's been beat down on pretty bad by themselves, mostly Cause do you have an agent? Yeah, do you have a demo? Yeah, well, you're doing all the right things and I think it's good to have an agent or two that are giving you good feedback or giving you feedback.  0:27:40 - Anne I was with an agency that way too many people.  0:27:43 - Tom The poop sticks agency you have 400 people that they represent and you just go. That's too many. I don't feel special when you're just going okay.  You got a demo, you're in. So I think, being with a smaller agency, that's a little more hands-on. Both my agents give me feedback every time, even if it's just a nice job. Yeah, and because of that I feel like I'm better for it, because I already know if I see a script, I know exactly what kind of read in the ballpark I need to be, so that's what I'm gonna get back. I'm at the point now where I really get back oh, you need to do this, this is too much, and something like that. So it's always I recognize what I'm working with right away. I do it, get it out, get the feedback, forget about it.  0:28:26 - Anne That's what you gotta do. I think a lot of people really crave feedback in this industry because we are just in our studios, kind of just talking into our little four padded walls, and so a lot of times it's hard when you don't get feedback and it's interesting.  0:28:40 - Tom Yeah, especially if you don't have a partner in a relationship, you know where you can at least go hey, honey, what do you think of this?  0:28:47 - Anne Yeah, you can bounce it off.  0:28:48 - Tom I don't bother my wife with everything, but every once in a while, you know, I go. You know, what do you think of this? Or she'll hear me and she'll go. I need to hear the whole thing. She'll hear me in my booth screaming, you know. And then now she has to hear all the stuff I did in that character.  0:29:04 - Anne I love what you said about well, at least when you're in front of a stage, I can, you can get that reaction from the audience. You know that, if you've bombed or not already, and the fact that when you're in your studio you actually use the fact that you're not in front of an audience as a creative kind of positive outlook, that you can be creative and not have to face that which is so interesting from, let's say, somebody that doesn't necessarily or hasn't started from being on stage. They might've worked a corporate job and now all of a sudden they're getting into character acting, and so they don't have that perspective. So I really like that perspective of taking the challenge and I think the creativity has to be in your brain, your imagination. You have to imagine that character in that scene, which is so difficult for some people. Do you have any tips on how to really create a scene realistically while you're sitting here in your studio?  0:29:53 - Tom Yeah, I think the most important thing, especially when you get those video games where it's like one line, one line, one line, one line, five, one lines and they're like hey, don't touch that rock and you're going. How are these people going to book somebody based on five lines that are no more than 10 words for the longest one?  and you're going, how am I gonna stand out in front of anybody? So you gotta kind of create a scene around those and those. I generally will write a bigger scene for the line and then because I'll have the line in there and I'll make sure that it doesn't bleed into the other words that I'm saying, but that gives me a little bit more emotional pop for that line.  0:30:35 - Anne Are you developing the characters that you're interacting with as well?  0:30:38 - Tom I know who I'm talking to. Yeah, so I might not have the character fully developed, but I know who I'm talking to.  0:30:44 - Anne Right, and what's happening in that scene? And what's happening, yeah, and you actually write that down.  0:30:48 - Tom I'll go on Word, I'll cut and paste the lines and then I'll put words around the line and highlight the line that is actually in it. So I have all the other words and a highlighted line to make sure I hit that one. But I know what's going on and I try to create more around it.  0:31:05 - Anne So how long would you say do you spend, let's say, analyzing and doing all that work? How long would you say you take for an audition to kind of do that creating the scene and writing that down before you go in and record?  0:31:17 - Tom It depends on my schedule and what I have to do and also how much I think something is really in my wheelhouse. I mean there's things you get where it's like I knock it out in 10 minutes because I really have a solid idea of what I'm gonna do with it and I go and do it and I listen to. It sounds good. With characters, though, with video games and animation, I really like to do as much as I possibly can. I remember I did this video game audition where the character was cockney. I called my dialect coach and we went through the whole thing together.  It was like a class for me. I thought this was a good opportunity to have a little class on doing a cockney accent and I said can I book our session with you? And we just worked on the script I was auditioning for because I really I loved it and I really wanted to nail it and, regardless, I got a class out of it. So it did two things for me helped me learn, and I put that learning to immediate use.  0:32:11 - Anne Absolutely absolutely.  0:32:13 - Tom And again, that's a really good thing to do is have a network of people, find a good dialect coach, find people that are teachers or coaches that you can work with, that you can go to and use them when you need, when you're stuck or when you just need something. Had a Pixar audition that I did and the character was obviously somebody from Eastern Europe and I had a friend who's from Ukraine and we went through the script and she helped me with some of the pronunciations and I didn't book it but I really felt confident sending it in.  0:32:45 - Anne I really felt like I nailed it Exactly. I love that because you've gotten the worth out of it, whether you booked it or not. So that's the other thing. So when you really are excited about something and you do all that work and you feel like you nailed the audition, but then you didn't book it, thoughts on how to stop that from getting you all upset and, oh my God, that's it.  0:33:03 - Tom Well, it's sort of like you still have to go. This is out of my control. I have no idea what the other person at the other end is going through what they've got in front of them. If they end up going with somebody that they've already booked for something and they can give them another character because union rules and it's like you did a really good job, maybe even better than that person but they're already booked and they don't have to pay another person to do that voice. They can do up to three voices and not get a penny more. So they go. Let's just give them that, so you don't know all the little things that transpire for somebody to get that part over you.  0:33:35 - Anne Yeah, and I think it's important for people to understand that it doesn't necessarily reflect on a poor performance or a poor audition.  0:33:42 - Tom No, my agent is a very funny woman and my auditions who I'm getting in front of have escalated. I'm doing more Disney Pixar auditions and stuff like that and she just goes. You're feeling upwardly.  0:33:53 - Anne There you go. I love that.  0:33:56 - Tom Which I thought was hilarious, because we always think we're failing. We're not. We're all doing the best we can and we're all doing great auditions. But because I'm doing so well in my auditions, other casting people are getting interested, so I am getting in front of people that I didn't get in front of, like four or five years ago.  0:34:12 - Anne Awesome, that's awesome. So even if you don't book the job, you could be making an impression on someone that can get you maybe the next job or the job after that.  0:34:21 - Tom That's the idea. They go well.  I really like that because you don't know, when I was booking COBS I would get DVDs and before that VHSs of comedians from around the country. We were very well known so I would get them from New York, boston, other parts of the country and they'd just pile up on my desk because it was excruciating for me at some times. So then at one point, when they were ready to fall over, I would just start watching them. In the beginning I would watch two or three minutes of somebody. Then it came down to just 30 seconds to a minute, because you know right away and that's how I'm sure it is for casting people.  0:34:56 - Anne You know right away if there's talent or if they were gonna be bookable absolutely or if they're right or wrong.  0:35:01 - Tom You might like them and you might wanna listen to the whole thing and you would go ah, they're just not quite right. I need a little bit of a younger voice. This is obviously somebody who's an older voice and I think it's really. I mean, I try to do what I can and have as much fun as I can, because there's gonna be probably 10 years down the road where this voice isn't gonna sound the same and I'll be doing grandpas and wizards.  0:35:22 - Anne So yeah, our voices do change as they age. I have experienced that myself. I certainly sound a whole lot different than I did 10 years ago. Well, well, this has been an amazing discussion, Tom. I so appreciate you taking the time and just dropping all these wonderful tips and tricks and words of wisdom for the boss listeners out there.  0:35:45 - Tom Yeah, yeah, have fun kids. That's the message.  0:35:47 - Anne There you go. I love that. So, bosses, I want you to take a moment and imagine a world full of passionate and powered, diverse individuals giving collectively and intentionally to create the world that they wanna see. You can make a difference. Find out more at 100voiceshoocareorg. And a big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can network and connect with amazing people like Tom. Find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye.  0:36:18 - Outro Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Ann Gangusa, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.  Transcribed by https://podium.page  

Cultura em Pauta #607 27/09/2023

What would it look like if you could harness the energy of a conference and convert it into effectiveness? What would it feel like to be your own boss in the voiceover industry? Our esteemed guest, Tom Dheere, joins us as we unravel the answers to these thought-provoking questions. We share valuable insights on setting the right objectives, maximizing conference experiences, and the commitment required to become a full-time voice actor. Plus, we examine the liberating perspective of entrepreneurial freedom offered by the voiceover industry. 0:00:01 - Anne Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the real boss series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza and I am so happy to bring to this series Mr Tom Dheere. Thank you so much, tom, for joining me on this.   0:00:15 - Tom Yay, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited about this. This is going to be great.   0:00:19 - Anne Oh, tom, first of all, it was so awesome to see you at the One Voice conference.   0:00:25 - Tom Yes, likewise.   0:00:27 - Anne I know we just had. You were just a guest on my podcast and, lo and behold, like two times I see you within the span of a month or two, which is really incredible, right?   Sometimes we have to go to conferences to just meet in person so whew, I was exhausting that conference, but super motivating, and I know a lot of people who went to that conference are all revved up and ready to go, motivated, inspired. We took amazing classes and so I think it's a good time to talk about. You know, what do we do with all that amazing energy that we just absorbed in that conference? Because I'm revved up, I'm motivated, ready to go. What can we do to, I guess, keep ourselves or keep the momentum going, tom?   0:01:16 - Tom That is a fantastic question and I know you've been presented at dozens and dozens of conferences over the past 10 years, and so have I, and we go and we meet wonderful people and we present and we also attend workshops and panels and we learn a lot and we get to commiserate with our peers, voice actors and coaches and other producers and stuff like that. And then there's this glow.   0:01:42 - Anne There is a glow. It's wonderful glow. There is a glow.   0:01:46 - Tom And then you go home and then for the vast majority of people that go to these conferences, it's like whew.   0:01:53 - Anne And then life sets in right. I have laundry to do. Yeah, family, yeah, right Bills and auditions and stuff like that.   0:02:02 - Tom So it's great. Conferences are great for, obviously for education. They're great for networking, they're great for renewal of purpose, refocus, re-energizing. The trick is how to take all that positive energy and inspiration and revved up-ed-ness and coming, taking it home with you and turning it into effectiveness. Because the positive attitude, while great it can only get you so far, it's not going to get you home. You're going to run out of that momentum and now there's work to be done.   0:02:37 - Anne Interesting, tom. Before we went to the conference, I think somebody had actually created a note sheet of like here are the I guess the talks that I want to go to, here are my goals, or here's what I got out of it, and I thought it was a really great way for people who like that type of thing and they take a lot of notes to write down your objectives. What are you hoping to get from that? And then what do you hope to do once you get, maybe once you get home, to put those lessons learned in place? And so I think that maybe everything should start even before we go to the conference in terms of writing things down and what is it that you hope to get out of this conference. And I'm a big planner, so I am a big proponent of yeah, you guys should plan out what sessions you want to go to, look at the schedule multiple times and just see how you can get the most out of the money that you've spent on that ticket of yours.   0:03:33 - Tom Yeah, absolutely, and different people at different points in their voiceover journey go to different conferences for different reasons, if it's. I've never been one to been one to one before, and I just want to. I haven't even produced a demo yet. I just want to see what this universe is like.   0:03:47 - Anne Great.   0:03:48 - Tom If it's, this is my 15th conference. I've had all these demos done, I've gotten all this work. What am I going to get out of it this time? Or some people go because they specifically want to meet you, or they want to meet another coach or demo producer to see, I want to get in the same room with this person and see if we click because I may want to work with you as a coach or a demo producer. Um, you know, and some go purely as presenters and you know, and then they, you know, do their stuff and then they get out of there and yeah, which is which is which is cool too.   0:04:19 - Anne I think there's such a, there's such a momentum to be gained by just joining forces with like-minded people and, just you know, renewing um relationships, and that just keeps you going, because it's so isolating sometimes just what we do and yeah and I will tell you, though, that the other day I was I don't even know what it was that made me think of it, but I I think I was getting ready to, you know, start.   I had a full day of students, and I said, I don't know what made me think about, oh god, what if I had to go to work for somebody?   um, you know, back in my days of corporate and I'm like I I could never do that again. So boss is out there. This is just a little segue. If you, if, if you know that this is what you want to do and you end up pursuing it full time, I don't say rush into it with your, you know, with your eyes closed. But, um and Tom, we can talk lots of strategies about that, but once you make that decision to go full time, I don't do you know anybody who's actually gone back because they've been unhappy being their own boss um, I know lots of people who have gone back to a regular job because they just couldn't book enough right they needed the money.   0:05:24 - Tom Yeah, exactly, it was purely financially, like I've been trying this and I just, I just can't get enough work to sustain myself and they've come gone back. Um, I can't think of anyone specifically, but I'm sure there are people out there, because there are people who just like to be told what to do, because then they don't have to think about it and there's a level of security in that and I totally that's sympathize with that.   0:05:45 - Anne I'm not one of those people, I can't. I don't, I don't think I could, I could not go back to taking now, I think, now I can take. I can take instructions from my client. Sure, I can be directed um, and then I want to get paid and be done with it. I think that's really it's. It's an interesting. It's an interesting, it's a different dynamic, because that's a, that's a, that's a business to business thing where you and the clients are on equal footing there's no high. There's no hierarchy.   0:06:10 - Tom It's it's you and the client trying to make this finished, great finished product, which is, you know, the audio files that you're gonna send to them or their, their source connecting you through. But with what? When it's a, I am in charge of you and. I'm telling you what to do, and this is when you can go to the bathroom and stuff like that it's like ah, I don't know if I could.   0:06:29 - Anne I don't know, I don't think I could go back to that it makes me think of okay, it's similar to I know I just went off on that on that weird tangent, but that happens sometime, bosses, sorry, um, but it was just a weird like. It just came to me. I was like I could not work for somebody now, so I will do everything in my power to make my business so that I do not have to do that. I think that also was leading into that.   But I think isn't that similar to, let's say, I, I pay my money, I get my ticket, I go to a conference, I take these classes, I'm inspired for a new genre, I'm inspired to work with a new coach, and then we come back and, oops, we're by ourselves, right. So now, yeah, it's very similar to what now, you know, we're gonna be talking about is we've got to take the reins and we've got to do the work and it's, it's now up to us, and we're not necessarily having that coach or that director saying, okay, do this, do this, do this. Now we've got all of this energy and this motivation. How do we cement that and you know, and and start to just really move forward on that?   0:07:27 - Tom right. The trick is if you want to be the vo boss you need to learn how to be your own boss. Yeah, yeah, you know it's empowering to like be the boss. Yeah, I'm a tough boss. I'll tell you that my boss is a jerk my boss, I would say my boss is a bastard oh, I just said that oh. I had another word in mind, but I didn't use it.   0:07:49 - Anne I'm not sure if we'll bleep that out, but yeah woo, I'll tell you what. I've never worked for a harder boss, but isn't that true?   0:07:57 - Tom yeah, yeah, I'm hard on ourselves. I'm pretty real, I'm I'm often pretty relentless and I have to be because I have this bad habit.   0:08:05 - Anne It's called eating and and having a roof over my head, yes, and not living in a cardboard box, yes, yeah, you know.   0:08:14 - Tom So yeah, the motivation is like there's no net yeah, you know what I mean. If I don't audition for this, there's a 100 chance that I'm not gonna book it well, yeah, and I think that's what propels me for sure you know what I mean to get work done, I mean right the fact that I need right.   0:08:30 - Anne I need to be able to pay the mortgage right, and that's the, and that's a.   0:08:33 - Tom That's a great point, anne, is that different people need to find different motivations. To stay motivated when you are alone in your booth talking to yourself? You know, so that's a big part of you know I talk about effectiveness. There's a difference between talent and effectiveness. There's a lot of talented aspiring voice actors out there with interesting voices but like I have an interesting pen, it doesn't make me an author, you know.   0:09:02 - Anne I own a wrench. It doesn't make me a plumber, so having talent, voice doesn't make me effective. Yeah absolutely.   0:09:11 - Tom You know, because no one's going to get discovered, you're not going to get your big break. It doesn't really work that way.   0:09:16 - Anne It's what you do with that pen that matters. It's what you do with that voice that matters.   0:09:20 - Tom Exactly and consistently. Yes, absolutely so when you get home from that conference and you've got all that positive attitude. That's great If you can bottle it and put it on a shelf for later.   0:09:30 - Anne That's great.   0:09:31 - Tom But when you get home, it's about what can I do to be effective today, tomorrow, next week, month, quarter year, two years, five years? And I'm not necessarily talking about writing a business plan, which is something I do do as the, as the video strategist, but it's about how do I think about myself to stay motivated. How do I think about and understand the voiceover industry? So there's a reality, because that's the other thing and, as you know, people coming into the industry have no idea what the industry is. They just have this odd preconceived notion of what it is. Oh yeah, I talk interesting. I got to just get an agent and then they'll just throw Saxa cash at me.   0:10:10 - Anne Exactly and I think, yeah, you don't know what you don't know right.   0:10:13 - Tom You don't know what you don't know.   0:10:15 - Anne And especially not only that is it a new industry for a lot of people, but it's also the fact that there's a lot of people who are very unhappy in their current job situation and get out of that work for somebody else, but then working for yourself is a whole different animal and that really is, I think, where the double it's.   The double whammy comes in for those people new to the industry, because not only are they trying to acquire the skills to be a good talent, but now they also have to have good business skills as well, and they're not used to working for themselves or having to go out and market themselves and get work and all those hats that they've got to put on.   0:10:58 - Tom Yeah, I had a maybe 15 years ago here in New York City. I had a 10 minute meet up with an agent I don't remember which one but he said tell me about yourself. And I talked about all the things I do. He's like, wow, you got a lot of hats.   And I'm like, yeah he's like but you only have one head and I'm like, yeah, so you kind of to be an effective voice actor, you need to kind of be the Dr Seuss Bartholomew in 1001 hats and have all those hats stacked up on. Some of them, some of them, you can take on and put on and take off, but a bunch of them you have to have stacked on your head at the same time, because there is no job description for being a voice actor.   I mean, there is, but nobody knows what it is, until you get here and it's like unlocking these doors and you know, moving these hedges aside and going oh, I need to do, I have to do that. You know it's like. It's almost like a maze, which is the logo of the VO strategist. Now that I think about it helping you navigate the voice over the industry, absolutely. So, navigating the maze of what it means to be an effective voice actor, and staying motivated at the same time. Because, yes, invoicing.   0:12:08 - Anne Staying, staying motivated when you're doing something like accounting.   0:12:12 - Tom Like for me.   0:12:12 - Anne I mean, well, I'm not. I mean, there are some people who love accounting, right, so there's accounting for me. How do there you go See for me? I'm like, oh God, actually I will tell you, tom. So for me, staying motivated while I have an S corp, right, and an S corp is creating all of this paperwork for me and for me, I can't, god it's, and it's just like I need to, either just, you know, be educated about, you know, the entire S corp thing, or I outsource, right. So I think if I had to do all that paperwork and try to understand it all and to stay motivated, it would be very, very difficult for that to happen, and it may discourage me from wanting to have a voiceover business because of this paperwork that I continually have to supply to the government, to you know, support this business, but I, you know, for me one of my solutions is to outsource that right.   And make sure that I have somebody that I trust and can go to if I have any questions, that can handle that aspect for me. So if I'll, I know, constantly get mail, mail, snail mail saying you need to provide this information, or you owe us this amount of money, or you need to prepay this or you know whatever that is, and so I literally will just be like, oh my gosh, this is a lot of paperwork. So I will literally scan that in and send that to my accountant, which, by the way, I will say to the to to my dying day, I will say my accountant was my very best investment for this business. I just I can't. I can't do the numbers.   0:13:45 - Tom Right, well, and that's that's a very important point, and is that if you're getting into the voiceover industry, obviously you need to understand what does that entail on you know soft skills, hard skills, hardware, software, marketing, money and all that stuff, and you need to know, you need to have an understanding of what your S corp is, or what this is, where that is, and then you can decide okay, this is a skill I need to just understand, but I'll outsource it and this is a skill like, for example, using your DAW.   0:14:14 - Anne You have to know how to use your DAW.   0:14:17 - Tom You need to know how to audition and you need to know how to record and clean up and save and, you know, deliver audio file. Some stuff is non-negotiable. You know what I mean.   0:14:27 - Anne But managing your S corp, you know right, that's another thing.   0:14:31 - Tom Or if you're an audio book narrator or a long form e-learning narrator, do you want to hire an audio, an audio engineer, to clean up your clean up your audio or do you want to do that, Do it yourself? Or do you say do it yourself first to understand how it works and why it works and then outsource it? And I'm sure some of your bosses are thinking I don't have that money. To outsource yes, I don't have the money to outsource.   0:14:54 - Anne You need to invest your money to make the money. That's what I always start by saying invest the money to make the money, but and maybe not try to put yourself wholeheartedly into the business until you do have money that you can invest, because that would be, from any perspective, any business. You have to have some investment money.   0:15:15 - Tom I mean it's not just voiceover, just some.   0:15:17 - Anne for some reason it became this like oh, we just talking to a microphone, how easy is that. I don't need to have any money or be prepared, or maybe I just got to buy a mic.   And that, I think, is where, where in the problem lies, where then you start to have, you know, predators in the industry that will sell that dream and people who will get taken for that dream and without the realization that, yeah, they have to put things in place and make investments to do that. So let's, let's kind of go back to we've gone to a conference and we've gotten motivated, and even it doesn't have to be a physical conference, it could be a virtual, online, you know, workshop or whatnot. I just went to a workshop called Unstoppable you. It was a Tony Robbins thing, which was all about the motivation, all about the motivation.   But yeah, now that you've, now that you're motivated, you've got to do the work and you've got to maybe take a look at the hard like really take a look at the the hard questions and and then make concrete steps to move forward. So it's like I can ask the hard questions. I can maybe, I can maybe get through the answers and they might make me cry, some of them Right, they right and so I can do that, but now I have to actually do the hard part, which is moving forward. So what, what would be the first thing you would recommend? Let's say, somebody that comes back from a conference or, you know, a workshop or whatever, and maybe a meeting with a coach and they're they're inspired, they're motivated. What's the first thing that you would have them do?   0:16:46 - Tom The first thing that I would have them do is write down in severe detail what they're perfect.   0:16:51 - Anne Severe detail, not just detail. Severe detail, severe detail.   0:16:55 - Tom What their perfect voiceover day looks like.   0:16:58 - Anne Oh, okay, okay. Follow me with just work with me for a second.   0:17:02 - Tom What time of day are you waking up? What time zone are you in when you wake up? Are you waking up in a house, a cabin, a condo, a space station?   a bunker, a submarine Like? Where are you waking up when it's time to start doing voiceover? Does the limo pick you up? Are you walking downstairs into the basement? Are you getting on a bicycle to go downtown? Are you going into your backyard to your custom built booth? Are you going into the attic? Are you taking a bus or a train? And then, when you get there, what are? What kind of? What kind of bookings are you doing? What genres or subgenres of voiceover? One or more? How much are you getting paid? Obviously, we all want to get paid as much as possible, but what is that actual number that you need to cover all of your voiceover expenses, all of your personal expenses? Manage your debt, save for retirement, save for that college education for your kids, save for that car and have enough to have a little fun.   0:18:01 - Anne And this is before. You're a working talent, right, this is still a, really, if you're just new to the industry and you want to get into it and you're let's say, you're in the process with a coach and you're making demos.   You want to project what genres? First of all, if you're working with a coach, you should probably have a genre in mind already yes, right, and with a genre specific coach. So you kind of know where you want to go. But putting that down, right, even if you're not actually doing the work as you were mentioning okay, this is the work, I'm going to be doing these auditions, even if you don't have audition opportunities yet and you're still just working. Put down that on the list because you want to make sure that you have the space for it and the time for it. Right, right, right. And then the goal, steps, the steps.   0:18:42 - Tom Right, exactly. And once you have that perfect day realized, written down in severe detail, you walk that backwards to the day to the moment that you're writing that list. What are you missing between right now and that perfect voiceover day? What money, how much money do you need? What training do you need? What tools do you need? What marketing acumen do you need? All of the things big and small, knowledge, hardware, software, tangible, intangible mindset to get you where you are and figure out what are you missing and what you need to do to fill those gaps. So when you come home from a conference, all motivated, try to figure out what the practical application of all the wonderful information that you just collected is. We go to all these workshops and listen to all these panels and take all these notes and some of the knowledge is immediately actionable and others are, for you know, I took this genre workshop. I'm gonna keep these notes and maybe I'll be ready for it in a year or two.   And so on and so forth. Organize, organize everything, because you need to figure out how actionable and practical everything that you need is to do to get you to that perfect voiceover day and use the glow and energy and momentum of the conference that you just got home from to kind of build that foundation, build that scaffolding, create that structure. So, when you get back into the day to day grind of trying to build or develop or nurture your voiceover business, you have effective systems of thought and effective systems of execution.   0:20:23 - Anne And let me interject also what I think is important is, of course, yes, you took that workshop on animation or whatever promo, imaging, whatever it is, you know, medical narration, I say because I just did that, love it or corporate.   I think that you always have to keep your eye on the market. I gosh, I feel like sometimes we become so blinded by our own like performance because we're like, oh, I want to get really good at animation or I want to get really good at, you know, whatever commercial or corporate. But I think we always have to keep our eye on the marketplace because if there's not a demand or if the demand is not as big and I'm always telling this to my students about corporate, it's a huge market, is a huge opportunity there Versus animation. Not that there isn't a huge opportunity there, but there's less of an opportunity there than there is in corporate. There's more of an opportunity in e-learning than there is in even I would say, promo, promo, of course. Right, documentary. Everybody that comes to me for narration says I want to do documentaries and I'm like well, how many documentaries do you think there are at any given time? Do you know?   0:21:32 - Tom what I mean yeah.   0:21:33 - Anne Compared to the 30.4 million registered companies that have a product or service to sell that need a corporate narrator.   0:21:40 - Tom And need human resources videos and need orientation videos and need compliance videos Right.   0:21:45 - Anne And I think that that is something that we really need to take into consideration at all points in our business, because that will affect right when you're talking about here's where I am. Here are the here's my perfect day, here's where I want to be, I want to be animating, I want to be doing animations on television or whatever that is, or I want to have a national commercial spot. That's all well and good. However, I think that you also have to take in account what is the market for that? Is there okay? Are you going to be able? And I used to think erroneously back in the beginning, before I realized what the market was oh, I just need a commercial a day, right? Or you know, oh, wouldn't that be nice.   Oh yeah, tom, we're talking about real talk, right? Real bosses. Well, okay, I don't know anybody that gets a commercial a day, except for people who are maybe on rosters for serious exam or they're doing, and that's usually for lower pay. But if you're thinking like, oh, if I got a national spot, even one a week, right, I mean, unless you're in it, voice for a campaign. I mean, I love how you laugh, that's the perfect way.   0:22:46 - Tom Well, I laugh because I thought I had to sound like James Earl Jones.   0:22:47 - Anne Right, I mean yeah, and so like that is. You know you have to understand what's realistic for the, for the industry too, when you're jotting these down. So any education that you can get on that right. Listen to podcasts like Vio Boss. I mean, we've been doing this for six years, right, talking about markets and business. And, tom, you've been doing gosh. How many years have you been doing business consulting?   0:23:10 - Tom and strategizing Over 10 years.   0:23:12 - Anne Yeah, over 10 years and specifically in our industry, and so, like guys, I mean, look, I'm not saying of course you should come to us, but I mean we've been doing this for a long time, we've watched the market evolve and so that's why I want to point it out and say that this is so important for us to have in consideration in our, in our step by step process of here's where we are, here's where we want to be. Now, if I want to be, you know, a commercial, you know Vio artist, well, maybe I want to think about another genre as well, to add in, to supplement those days when I don't get the national campaign every day. And I'm not trying to crush your dreams, guys, that's just not, that's just not it. But you know we're. This is a dose of reality, right, tom?   This is our whole series is based on let's talk real yeah.   0:23:57 - Tom The reality is is that you may be. You may be good at something you don't like, and you may not be good at something you do like.   A lot of people are drawn to the industry because they love cartoons and video games, and a lot of them may not be good at it, but they may find out that they are good at corporate or e-learning, which is a far more to your point, stable form of voiceover income, because, when it comes to effectiveness, the bottom line of effectiveness as a voice actor is you're able to make money. You're able to develop a revenue stream.   0:24:28 - Anne Develop any revenue stream that you need to make. Yeah, develop any revenue stream.   0:24:32 - Tom you can in any genre, whether you like it or not, and I always say all genres of voiceover is storytelling. I get my storytelling jollies out of any voiceover genre.   0:24:44 - Anne I don't care Teaching statistics right or you're narrating corporate responsibility or HR policies. You are absolutely a character and you are acting, and so that is a requirement, that is, I mean, baseline requirement, especially now when we talked about this in our last podcast. It is such a requirement for us to be the actors that we are called to be, I mean, and that includes all genres. So, yes, and that's the reality, that's the real talk.   0:25:14 - Tom Yes.   0:25:15 - Anne The real talk is you've got to invest in yourself, in developing those skills and getting good coaching, and not just taking acting classes. I know everybody would say take an acting class, and I think that's wonderful too, but you've also got to take acting classes as they pertain to voiceover as well.   0:25:32 - Tom Yes, there's a crossover. I mean, I always say improv classes are extremely important because it gives you the ability to make strong decisions quickly while you're narrating your copy. But to an end, compliment stuff like that, and there's like there are people who do improv for voiceover and acting specifically for voiceover. It's a very specific skill.   0:25:54 - Anne There's very specific muscles that you need to flex, Absolutely, absolutely To be to do voiceover as opposed to on camera or as opposed to theater. I'm all about teaching the acting for narration and, by the way, tom, I miss you. I don't see you. Did you turn your camera off by any chance?   0:26:09 - Tom No, I'm still here.   0:26:11 - Anne Oh, I don't see you how interesting. That's that's. Do you see yourself?   0:26:16 - Tom I do.   0:26:17 - Anne Oh, okay. Well, I'm just going to assume.   0:26:19 - Tom Okay.   0:26:20 - Anne I'm going to assume that it just kind of blipped off. But you know, hey guys, technology Riverside, hopefully we'll have your, we'll have your video anyways.   0:26:30 - Tom Okay.   0:26:30 - Anne Absolutely, so, okay, so, so what a great conversation. So now you're back. Okay, so that's interesting. So now we've taken our, we've come back from the conference, we're motivated, we're, we've written down our, our perfect voiceover day, right and so, and then we've worked backwards to the steps. And so what would be next after that, tom, how do do we need to? We probably need to take time to evaluate whether we've accomplished those steps right, absolutely.   Once we've written them down and we've and we've developed our to-do list. Now we've got to go back, maybe in a week or so or in a you know at the end of the day and say did I accomplish my tasks?   0:27:07 - Tom Yes, self-evaluation and self-reflection is one of the most important skill sets to be an effective voice actor. Because you don't have. Unless you're part of my mentorship program or you're mentoring with Ann, you are working in a vacuum. You need to develop the ability to metacognate, which is the ability to stand outside of thank you, the ability to stand outside of yourself. Look at yourself objectively and say did I do what I assigned to my assigned for myself? Did I do it? Well, if I didn't do it, why didn't I do it? Was there a logistical problem? Was a financial problem? Was there a motivational problem? You know and find out why, why you do what you do, how you tick, and there's a time to be kind to yourself and there's a kind, there's a time to be tough on yourself. You know.   0:27:56 - Anne And so taking I think I've always tough on myself, but you're right, yeah.   0:27:59 - Tom You have to be able to. You have to be able to do both, because we're all human. We all have different energy levels and emotional states that fluctuate constantly throughout the day, week, month, year, decade, and we need to be accommodating for that. Oh, mercury's in retrograde today, so I'm not going to get my invoicing done, or what were you?   0:28:18 - Anne know oh, technology sucks, technology sucks. You know what I mean?   0:28:21 - Tom Oh, great retrograde, yeah, you know but if you find yourself making excuses for yourself about why you're not doing things, then you are not being effective.   0:28:28 - Anne Because I have an, I have an action for it. That's a whole another podcast right there.   0:28:32 - Tom Yeah, I have my action plan right here and I don't check off every single box. I get about 80% of my action plan stuff done every month, dating back to 2006. And sometimes it's-.   0:28:42 - Anne Do you have records from back then? Do you do you have a-.   0:28:45 - Tom I have a binder right here with every single one of these. So January 2006-. I love it Was my first printed one and I've done 12 a year since 2006 and it's in this binder right over here.   0:28:54 - Anne It does not surprise me that you love numbers too. I love numbers, right, yeah, see, and so that I feel goes along with.   Now I'm not so much, although I will. I will share my book is out there, but I have my to-do list that I love to cross things off on and I have my planner where I like to write my goals down. I'm not always as good as I propose to be, but, yeah, I think that's super important. But, wow, what a great conversation. I want to talk to you more, in more detail, about a lot of these steps because I think they're super important in our series. So, tom, thank you so so much for joining me for our first, our first in a series of real bosses.   0:29:35 - Tom Yeah.   0:29:36 - Anne So, guys, if you, I have a simple mission for you, but one that has big impact 100 voices, one hour, $10,000. Four times a year. Do you want to know what I'm talking about? Visit 100voiceswhocareorg to find out more and to join us. And big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. We love IPDTL. We love connecting with bosses like Tom and myself. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Bosses, have an amazing week and be real bosses. We'll see you next week. Bye, bye.   Transcribed by https://podium.page

In this episode, Anne is joined by special guest Tom Dheere, the Vo Strategist. With over 25 years of experience, Tom knows how to ride the waves of ever-changing technology and market shifts. Discover the secrets to driving traffic to your website through social media, blogging, and top-notch content to keep you ahead of the pack. They share how old-school tactics like cold calling and email marketing might not be cutting it anymore. Boost your confidence with Tom's killer advice on negotiating rates like a BOSS and flipping your approach to snag the rates you truly deserve. Plus, we unveil the controversial truth about Fiverr and how this billion-dollar beast can actually help you charge industry-standard rates… Transcript 0:00:01 - Anne Hey, hey everyone, Welcome to the VO Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am excited to welcome voiceover business and marketing consultant and VO strategist, Tom Dheere, to the show. As a voice actor with over 25 years of experience, Tom brings a wealth of voiceover knowledge to the table In his one-on-one strategy sessions, diagnostic sessions those sound interesting and his mentorship program, As well as speaker appearances at industry conferences. Tom, I am so excited to have you here today. Thanks for joining me.    0:00:34 - Tom Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to chat with you, Anne.    0:00:37 - Anne Tom, you know it's chaotic out there.    I'll tell you what there's disruption, There's, I say, mass panic, and I think that today more than ever, as entrepreneurs and business owners, we need a strategy more than ever. So I am super duper glad that we are here talking to you about that. So let's get a feel for your take on the industry, because you've been in the industry for gosh over 25 years and I'm sure you've seen it evolve, kind of like myself. Talk a little bit about your experience in this industry and how it's evolved over the years.    0:01:20 - Tom Okay, well, i decided I wanted to be a voice actor in 1994, so I was a graduate school dropout, so I got my. I decided in late 94, got most of my. I got my training in my voiceover demo in 95, which is a cassette tape. I still have it here in the drawer. And then when I got that demo, my coach gave me a little certificate and gave me a stack of Xerox copies of production company listings and said you know, start your good, your cold calling good luck. Because in 1995, there was I mean there was an internet and some websites, but there was no.    0:01:57 - Anne Yeah, there was no social media.    0:01:59 - Tom There was no online casting sites, there was no home recording, there was no digital delivery of audio files, there was no phone patch, there was ISDN. But like, who had that besides? like the, the, the rate, you know the major TV networks, you know. So you had to buy cold called and I called, called for a year until I got my first gig, so until I joined voice 123 in 2006,. That was pretty much, that was pretty much the only way to do it, and also I was going into New York city once a week. Voiceover is unlimited and you'd pay whatever was $35 for a 10 minute meet.    Meet up with a casting director or an agent or a manager which is how I got my, my first manager, who I still have to this day, 17, 18 years later. So my cassette turned into a CD which I was duplicating, burning you know. Oh God, the my post office hated my guts.    0:03:04 - Anne Now mail. Yes, cause.    0:03:06 - Tom I had a long a lawn bag of padded mailers and they'd be like, oh geez, here comes Tom again and like, all right, everybody just gets to the side and just tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick you know cause?    0:03:15 - Anne I was just constantly sending it out, yeah, and then that evolved into MP threes. So let's, let's, let's start. I think that there's, there's something, there's a parallel here, a disruption right. Some disruption in the industry right. So it evolved from a tape into a CD, into today, which is all digital right.    0:03:36 - Tom Right And then and then pay a voice bank and voicescom and voice 123 disrupted the voiceover again, again and you know, and now AI is disrupting the voiceover industry. But this is what I say and all my students.    0:03:52 - Anne A pattern Tom. A pattern Tom. Yes, there is a pattern throughout the years, so I don't think that disruption is going to stop anytime soon.    0:04:00 - Tom No, it's going to keep going, and what I like to say is that when the light bulb was invented, it disrupted the candle making industry and nobody cared about the candle makers, except for the candle makers.    0:04:13 - Anne People were saying Oh good I can.    0:04:15 - Tom I can read a book at night without my house burning down. Like that's where everybody was coming from. It's like okay. So the candle makers had a choice They could go to Congress to try to get light bulbs outlawed, they could go la, la, la, la la which a lot of voice actors have been doing especially literally today, this week, on the voiceover groups. Or they could adjust to their candle making industry to accommodate certain parts of the light bulb industry, or they could convert their candle making factory into a light bulb making factory.    So, you can either fight it, ignore it, adapt to it or embrace it. And the voice actors that are going to still be standing for lack of a better term on the other side of AI and whatever the next disruption is, the ones that are adapting, evolving learning, growing, operating from a position of abundance as opposed to a position of scarcity, and not shouting at the rain. They're the ones that are still going to have a viable voiceover career. Yeah.    0:05:08 - Anne Yeah, i'll tell you, it has really it has really wreaked havoc, and I think that you know, gosh, you know, and I've been following it and following it And you know, two years ago on the VO Bus podcast, i mean, i think that you and I can both agree to do due diligence and educate yourself on, you know, evolving technologies or disruptive technologies that can affect your business, and that is so very important that we, you know, truly educate ourselves. And I had done a series of interviews, of which I'm still doing periodically, with you know, large companies, people that are working in synthetic voices, ai companies to kind of get to ask those tough questions like Hey, what's happening here? And are you, you know, is there transparency? You know, what are your ethics? You know, do you have, you know, objectives in terms of protecting?    you know, voices as you go, and I think it's been an educational journey for not just me as a business owner and a voice artist, but for the AI companies as well. I think we are all learning and evolving with technology as we go, and I've had experience doing that myself, you know, working in technology for over 20 years, and I still consider myself working in technology. So, in terms of you know your, your students and and your clients. What is your? what is your biggest tip now for, let's say, people coming into the industry, how to get a handle on this industry and be successful.    0:06:43 - Tom Do as much research as you possibly can. Work with professional coaches who are boots on the ground blue collar voice actors as well like who are actively engaged in the voiceover industry. That's not to say that there's not genre coaches out there, like Mary Lynn Wissner, for example, who is not a voice actor but is an amazing coach.    There are only a handful of people like that, as you know and but people who are actively, who have to continue to grow and evolve with the industry to maintain relevance in the industry And be better than the AIs on a storytelling level as quickly as you possibly can.    0:07:23 - Anne Yeah.    0:07:24 - Tom Because they are getting better and better almost daily. Are they going to completely take over the entire voiceover industry? No, Are they going to. you know, take away a percentage of certain jobs of certain genres, mostly for entry level voice actors Yes, yeah. The trick is how do you get good enough that, when you're starting your voiceover journey, that you're already better than the AIs, so you can kind of leap over?    that hurdle and be a human narrator as quickly as possible. That's going to be the challenge. What I think that means is the people that are more naturally talented, the people who have theater training, the people who have on-camera film and TV training, improv training, those people coming into the industry which are all parts of what defines a better actor are going to have a better chance than people just coming at it from other sectors. Frankly, i mean, a registered nurse has every right to stop being a nurse and try to do medical narration for a living, and I encourage that. I've trained people like that, you've trained people like that over the years, but it's going to get harder and harder if they don't have natural storytelling billing, natural storytelling ability, or they haven't been trained in non-voiceover storytelling. So get as many acting classes as you can under your belt. Get as many improv classes under your belt so you can learn how to make strong choices quickly, which is a key to being a good narrator. Understand the technology and maybe get your voice cloned as quickly as possible.    0:09:05 - Anne That's very interesting. I'm finding that I do have some people, because I did the series and I've been investigating and educating myself with AI companies for the past few years, i've had people ask me, and not all of them want to shout the rafters saying, oh, i'm out there trying to figure out how to get my voice cloned or how to get a synthetic voice. But what's interesting is that synthetic voice, the companies that are creating synthetic voices. They're also evolving and changing on a daily basis, and so it's really important that, as voice actors, you keep up with that, and I'm always a big proponent of if you have a business, you want to understand the market in which you're selling And so part of that market. If the market is changing. And, tom, as a business person, you're all about researching and looking at the market as it evolves over the years. And where do you see the market heading in terms of voiceover casting? Where are we going to be able to get these jobs, or where can voiceover talent find work? And I know that's the golden question, right.    People like they expect a five-minute answer from me. Where can I get voiceover work? But where do you see that evolving and heading as we move on in the future?    0:10:27 - Tom That's a great question, Anne. There will still always be a place for needing agents, managers and casting directors for high end work, class A national commercials, high end video games and cartoons, high end promo, high end in show narration. I don't think that's ever. I don't think that's ever going to change. Casting sites are going to continue to be as relevant as ever and is still the the most effective way for new voice actors to onboard into the industry. Because you can. All you need is a credit card and you could just join the casting site and start auditioning immediately.    The interesting part is going to be the direct marketing part which. I learned the hard way when all of my direct marketing strategies, which worked like gangbusters in 2013, 14, 15, 16, all of a sudden stopped working because, so many of those production companies recording studios that I had worked with through direct marketing strategies have moved to online casting sites just because it's easier for them to curate a roster, manage talent, manage projects.    So, um, ai is going to take a chunk out of online casting sites. It's going to take a chunk out of direct marketing clients the low end stuff and stuff that would never normally get like there's audio books out there that will never get produced unless it's an AI voice.    0:11:51 - Anne It's going to do it out of interest or ergonomics or just sure, whatever that sure whatever the rights holder can, um, can afford.    0:11:57 - Tom So you also new students, when it comes to this kind of strategies, need to figure out what. How does what a success look like for them, Which genres do they want to be successful in And which portals do they need to access to become successful in said genres? So if you want to be on the next Pixar film or be in the next fallout video game, you need to get a lot of training, you need to get a top notch demo, you need to get high end agents and you're going to eventually need to join SAG-AFTRA. That's not. That's not changing for everybody else. You know the pendulum is going to swing, stuff's going to move or stuff's going to move around, but you're still going to need you're still going to need the aforementioned good training, good demo good website, good home recording.    Um, and the ability to keep up with industry's trends by reading blogs, watching podcasts like this um, working with coaches like, like you and me. Um, it's going to what, what percentage of what genre is going to get lost and where you're going to need to go for each of it. I mean, who can? who can say, but if you have, if, if online casting sites stigmatize you, get over it get in there develop your skills develop your auditioning skills.    0:13:10 - Anne That was it. That was the nugget of the day. That was awesome Sound right of the day. Yeah.    0:13:14 - Tom Because online casting sites like I'm. I know because I'm on voice 123. I audition every day and I regularly see clients that are posting casting notices that I used to work with five, six, seven, eight, 10 years ago, who won't take my phone calls anymore because they're on casting sites. That's the only way they'll talk to me And I'm totally fine with that, because you said you got to go where the buyers are. you got to go where the market is going. That's where they are. That's where you need to be.    0:13:41 - Anne I think there's something to say If we just tell every boss out there, you know, first of all, um, be a boss, right And understand that you really have to stop. And I think, take a uh, uh, take a look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is we're providing a product, uh, to a market, the market. You have to evolve with the market. It's not about you know, uh, oh, my gosh, it's, it's, it's you know your voice over business and your craft and your and your art, which I completely, yes, it is. But honestly, you know, at the end of the day, right, i want to pay my mortgage, right, and if I want to have a business, it always amazes me, tom, how you know you go to conferences and I know you know when, when, cause I used to, i used to teach business classes as well. Whenever you go to see which classes fill up first, it's always the performance classes, it's always the cartoon and video game.    Always those because, well, okay, so they're fine, they they allow the creativity. But, honestly, you know, beyond the fun and the creativity in the booth, you've got to be able to run a business that will make a profit. If you want to write, if you want to do this as a business and you want and you're serious about it I mean, if it's you know, if it's a hobby, that's a difference, that's a different podcast. Sure, you know, and I think that you know what you offer, you know, to people as a, a VO strategist or even just a business strategist, is invaluable. And I truly think, bosses out there, you've got to step back.    Um, and yes, of course you know, create the product that the market is demanding Right, and and also know how to run your business right. And so I love your story that you know the people that used to take your calls no longer will take your calls. You know your calls and now you have to work with them on the platform, and mostly because it's easy and more convenient And I will be the first person to ask any of you bosses out there if you're using any form of AI to do anything. Let's say, create a blog post or, you know, maybe play around and change your headshot And you're using the technology to make your jobs better, more efficient, then you cannot be the person that gets upset if you're not, let's say, evolving along with the synthetic voice aspect of it.    0:16:06 - Tom You know, absolutely.    0:16:08 - Anne I mean. So, as we talk to peer to peer, i think, or pay to play platforms, i think online casting is absolutely. What about Tom? let's talk about what about your website, your online platform, your online storefront? What do you think about that in terms of being able to market your business?    0:16:29 - Tom Okay, it's funny because people coming into the industry, you know most of them realize they need some kind of training and then they realize, oh, i need to record from home. You know I need a demo. And then almost all of them think, well, i need some kind of website. But they don't know why they need a website. They don't know how to build a website and they don't know what is necessary to create an effective website. What I tell my students is that no one is gonna find your website nobody.    There are literally tens of thousands of voice actor websites out there. The odds of them typing in some stuff on Google, bing, yahoo and finding you is virtually impossible. I mean, tomdeercom is over 20 years old and I've been blogging for 14 years, so I've got really good SEO and I rarely get found on it. Anyway, the point is, your job as a voice actor is to drive traffic to your website, and you do that by being on social media, blogging, creating a presence, creating conversations, creating quality content to get them to notice you. And then there's email marketing and cold calling, which I'm sure you realize that they don't work a fraction as well as they used to, because why should they answer the phone of some voice actor trying to talk about themselves, when they're just gonna go to an online casting site to cast their next project. They're already more than halfway down the sales funnel anyway on an online casting site, as opposed to trying to get them into the sales funnel through cold calling and all that.    So driving traffic to your website is extremely important, and then get them to do the most important thing, which is download your demos.    0:18:12 - Anne Everything else, is irrelevant Or click it back. I mean, everything else is secondary to downloading the demo. Right, yeah, but now downloading the demo? now we've got there's the fear. There's now there's some fear that if we allow our audio, you know, freely out there and I, you know I have podcast, you have podcast. Anybody can download this podcast I've been doing it for six years and potentially turn it into a voice.    0:18:40 - Tom Okay, Look everybody. I've been doing this for 25 years. I have done thousands and thousands of voiceover projects. I've probably done tens of thousands of auditions over the years, I guarantee my voice has been cloned without my knowledge many times over.    I guarantee that auditions that I have you, that I have done, has been used for broadcast without my consent or without compensation. Every website that exists is going to get hacked at some point. None of our data is safe, it's just not. All you can do is do the best you can to mitigate your risk. try to be secure. I can't worry about submitting my demo and worrying about it getting cloned.    I mean if I, if I was worried about that, i wouldn't have a career. I would. I'd be quadruple bolting the door and hiding in the bathtub. There's just nothing you can do about it. So don't worry about don't worry about that. Put the demo out there. I mean because the the the odds of it happening are extremely slim, but the longer you're here, the more likely it's going to happen. It's just you know well.    0:19:45 - Anne Tom, i mean, i think I think really again, we we talk about that bad actors, um, which is so interesting in our industry. Now, the term bad actor, right. Had I not really delved in deep to talking to people outside of my own industry, i would not have known what the bad actor meant. Um, outside of, like the literal meaning of it, right, but the bad actors meaning those companies, right, or those people that may take advantage, unfair advantage, um, with the in in clone voices, without permission, create deep fakes, all of those things. There's always that possibility And I had such an interesting conversation the other day with Shyamala Praga, who is very well known in the AI industry.    Um, regarding, you know, laws and regulations and and instead of being reactive which is what we typically are right, reactive, something bad happens and then a law or you know some sort of policy is is established that then, you know, takes care of it. Um, really trying to again educate all of us, not just in our industry but everywhere, that, um, these things could potentially happen and we need to protect ourselves from bad things. Um, you know, what are your thoughts about? I mean, i, like, i really love your, your, your perspective on you can't be worrying about that all the time, but are there any steps that you would recommend to to, let's say, to protect um or to be cautious about that? I mean, i certainly am not going to make my demo not downloadable because I want it to be convenient for people to listen and buy.    0:21:20 - Tom You have to have it. It has to be downloadable because, when it comes to your direct marketing strategies and driving traffic to your website, the odds of them having a voiceover project for you right now, at the time that you have marketed to them successfully and they've actually gone to your website to review your demos, the odds of them actually having a gig for you is infinitesimally small. I can count, i think, on two fingers in 25 years that that's actually happened. Representation and online casting insights are for opportunities now. Direct marketing, driving traffic to your website is for opportunities.    later They're not going to remember you once they leave that website of yours You need to have. They need to walk away with the demo, so they stick it in a folder somewhere in their cloud or on their desktop, so when an opportunity comes along that you may be right, for your demo was right there for them to review, or if again another thing that I always like- to say is that, no matter what in a marketplace and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, there are I will pay for things that make my life easier and make my life more convenient.    0:22:25 - Anne So, for example, i hate, i always use this my lipstick. So my lipstick is reliable, dependable, stays on all day, i don't have to put it on again And I you know I use that as an example product. I pay a lot of money for this lipstick. Now I certainly feel that no matter. Look AI, you know pay to play sites, you know driving down, you know rates. I no matter what. If somebody likes and gangooza right and likes her product, they're going to pay the money and they're going to remember me and they're going to buy it again and again. I'd love to hear your thoughts.    0:22:58 - Tom You go to a department store and there's five pairs of shoes on on the shelf and four of them cost, you know, $75 and one of them cost $800.    Everybody immediately goes and looks at oh, what's this? What's the value of this? Why is it worth $800? Well, if they says it's worth $800, then clearly it must be worth $800. So I will happily spend $800 on this pair of shoes. So most people coming into the voiceover industry are broke and perceive themselves as an employee or a starving artist. They are already immediately devaluing themselves and training voice seekers to devalue them.    So it's a systems of, it's a systems of thought problem. And I'm not going to sit here and blow sunshine up everybody's butt and say you're special, you're wonderful, you're, you're going to. All your dreams are going to come true, because that's not what the VOStratigist does. This VOStratigist does not sell dreams. The VOStratigist sells reality.    My job is to give you objective data so you can set, you can make informed decisions about your voiceover career. But you want to do everything you can to set yourself up for success And the first step one is mindset. Know your worth. Know your worth based on your pure talent, know your worth based on your training, know your worth based on your experience. And know your worth based on what the industry standards are.    Sag After over here GVAA over there, Know what your worth is and comport yourself And it's maybe it's a little fake it till you make it. I don't. I'm not sure you can do that. Having confidence and being confident in your training and your talent and your understanding of the rates, That should empower you to make sure that people aren't buying stuff from you that are shopping in the wrong aisle.    0:24:56 - Anne And also, i would say, as a as a talent just coming in, i don't think you can expect to get into or to become a top tier you know, professional without making an investment. I mean, that's the other thing too. I cannot tell you how many people they'll be like. You know, i really need coaching, but I just I don't have any. You know, they don't have the budget they don't have And, and so in reality, there has to be those things in place. You can't expect to go in and make a ton of money without investing in yourself and investing in that, in that coaching that's going to help you to be the most human voice actor that you can be.    0:25:37 - Tom Patience is one of the most important skills that you need to have as a new voice actor. Everyone wants to start talking for money as quickly as possible and using their funny cartoon voices that their dentist told them is hilarious And that's all. That's all great, but if you can't afford the training yet, build a budget create a savings plan.    be patient, find community theaters or summer theater programs that have free acting and improv training, and develop your foundation of storytelling skills while you're saving money to work with a professional coach like Anne, or work with a VO strategist you know a business marketing consultant like me. There's a ton of things that you can do. But if you dive in when you're not ready or you go with the first demo coach that you can afford and submit to that demo to those agents for the first time, it's not gonna go well.    It's not gonna go well. So I'll never tell anybody not to pursue their dreams, but I will tell everybody to be smart about pursuing their dreams by having. This is what I like to say no matter what you're doing in life, do it with both hands and on a flat surface. Be smart about it, i learned that when I tried to open an Amazon box with a pair of open scissors like this, which we've all done, Oh, yeah, yeah, not yeah. Both hands flat surface.    0:26:58 - Anne Very guilty of that. So then, let me talk a little. let's talk a little bit about rates, because what is your best advice for those actors who might be struggling to find work at their desired rates when you know there is this perceived? you know, race to the bottom, with technology disrupting What, how can they pivot their approach to succeed and get rates that they deserved?    0:27:21 - Tom Learn how to negotiate. And it's not like a Middle East Bazaar where you're haggling over the price of, you know, a goat or something.    It's just the better that you can understand the rate structure of voiceover on a session level and on a usage level, the better, the more empowered you are to educate your clients or potential clients, because for so many casting notices that I see, or so many emails hey, i found you on Google, whatever they've never cast a voiceover in their life.    They haven't the faintest idea what the ergonomics are, what project management is involved or what the rate structure is. Being experienced it's not necessarily a correlation between being professional and experienced. You don't have to be experienced to be professional To understand there is a rate structure. I understand what the rate structure is and I'm able to articulate it to somebody who has no idea how the voiceover industry works. The more that you can do that, the more empowered you are to get industry standard rates and the more empowered you are to educate voice seekers to value you and not let them use cheap rates. Well, i paid this guy five bucks. I'm gonna leverage it to get you to pay you five bucks where you say no, you don't do that You gotta think long term.    You have to value yourself and your fellow voice actors, because every time you accept a ratty rate, you're making it harder for everybody else. Every time you accept an industry standard rate, you're making it easier for everybody else.    0:28:51 - Anne Now, but okay. So then here's the question. Yes, i agree that there should be the thought process about the industry as a whole. However, you will always have those voice actors that it is their business, right? I'm a big proponent of saying mind your own business. That means, don't worry about how other people get their business. In that respect, though, do you know what I'm saying? I truly believe I want people to understand their worth in order to make a bold and take the challenge to actually negotiate that worth with a potential client. So, speaking of five bucks, i know that you had talked to me a little bit about an experiment that you had conducted using the online pay to play the F word, fiverr.    And I personally, i'm one of those people that thinks we need to talk about this because it is a viable marketplace in the well viable it exists in our industry. Let's put it that way you may not agree with it and you may not feel that it values your worth, but what were your findings? What do you think about Fiverr?    0:29:58 - Tom Okay, it had been coming up so much in conversations with my students, with my fellow voice actors, fellow coaches, producers, panelists at conferences And, like I said, my job as a video strategist is to collect objective data so I can help my students make thoughtful, informed decisions about how to move their voiceover business forward. Fiverr is real, it is here. It's a billion dollar company. There are thousands and thousands of voice actors on it. So I needed to understand what exactly it is, why it is and how it works. So I created an account, I followed the tutorials, i looked at YouTube videos, i built a profile and then you build what are called gigs And a gig is basically broken down by genre.    I will narrate I'm an American voice actor who will narrate your explainer video or e-learning module or whatever And then what you do is you build the rate, but you're breaking it down bit by bit. So This is what really fascinated me about it is if someone said to you and I've got an explainer video, how much do you charge? and you probably charge what? 400, 500, whatever sometime around there But if you actually broke down by dollar, how much it costs for you to record the video, how much it costs to edit the video, to clean up, process, format, save, deliver. Do retakes give you permission to use the video in a certain way on a certain platform? if you chop up that $400 into all those little individual things, that's basically what you're doing on Fiverr. So it could say base price $5, but then if you add deliver as a wave file, deliver it within 24 hours you know, we'll only get two retakes.    Mvp, I'll move you up to the front of the line, If you, then if you go da-da-da-da, then the total can be $400. It can be an industry standard rate. Fiverr saying oh, we get everything's for five bucks.    0:32:05 - Anne It's more of a marketing position than anything else. And if you think about that in reality, right, if they're going for that market for the people who don't right, who don't have a lot of money to spend and they want to go for lower priced, saying Fiverr and marketing themselves as Fiverr, get affordable, then absolutely I mean as a business they built for a market where there was a hole And yeah, and now of course, because they have so many voice artists on it right.    that increases their SEO value, which increases, you know, ease, convenience, of use, and so that's what makes them you know the force that they are in the industry.    0:32:49 - Tom Right. So there's three levels on Fiverr And if you earn a certain amount of money and a certain amount of timing, get a certain amount of ratings in a certain amount of time, then you go to the next level and then the top level and the people at the top level charge industry standard rates and they do fine. The trick is kind of punching through that membrane from the first level to the second, in the second to the third. I feel like that's where it can be challenging.    0:33:12 - Anne Yeah, and I feel like you'd have to work that, because I think you have to earn that right, you have to get so many ratings, and I feel like you'd have to actually work the platform for a bit so that you could get up the ratings, so that you could climb up the ladder, so that you could charge industry rates. But, although not impossible, it's a very interesting concept. And because we are talking about it, bosses, doesn't necessarily mean we are condoning that platform, i mean. But if you look at it from a business standpoint, it absolutely, you know it covered a hole in the market and logically I can see how that works.    I absolutely can see how that works Now, do I love that? it makes voiceover seem cheap? No, not at all. And I think to each and everyone out there, it is up to you to make that decision whether you want your brand associated with that brand, because that's a whole other way of doing business, right? So, again, you're almost working for the platform And then that platform represents your brand versus, let's say, for me, i've always been let's do it myself, and you know, seo for me.    I've been online for years and it's worked in my favor And I've built up a great clientele list And I'm very fortunate that I'm able to continue on that. And while I am a member of a lot of pay to place, i don't have time to actually audition. And you know, for me, email marketing well, it's probably not quite as effective. Well, it's hard to say. I still believe that there's effectiveness in email marketing if you've got the right message and you have the right subject line, because people have less and less of an attention span. But it's one of the reasons why I built the VO Boss Blast. It was a way to help direct market talent, so that they didn't, you know, and I basically started it for myself. Isn't that like every company.    0:35:05 - Tom Right, if you create a product you want, help You do it to serve your needs.    0:35:09 - Anne I did it because I was like I don't have time. I want to do the podcast, i want to do VOPs, i want to be you know, i'm coaching, so I don't have a ton of time, so let me just create a direct marketing product that I can use. And then, of course, i shared that.    0:35:24 - Tom I do want to say for the record I have not booked anything on Fiverr. I set up my gig, i made adjustments to my rates because you're supposed to refresh it and try to feed the algorithm. I couldn't. I also did the same exercise on Upwork and it worked similarly and I got the same results. I could not. I could not book anything. I guess that just means I'm not a particularly good voice actor.    0:35:47 - Anne No, I think it's because you didn't have 100% of your right time to really devote to it. I mean, that's what. I think That's a part of it.    0:35:55 - Tom And the other thing is understanding the economies of the voice seekers, absolutely.    0:35:59 - Anne Diversify the economies and understanding of you know, money and how it works, of the country of origin of the voice actor too, absolutely, and Tom, i'll be the first one to say I mean, we've been in this business a long time. If you were on Voice 123 in 2006, right, you remember? Freelancer.    0:36:17 - Tom Oh, i was on Freelancer. Oh good, so was I. And Elanzen and Guru, yeah, i was on all of them.    0:36:22 - Anne So all of those evolved into Fiverr.    Really, that's really it was that it was like who could bid the lowest right? And I will tell you that, as a you know, entering into the online space, i mean that's where I did get some jobs. Now, did I take jobs that were probably not what I was worth? Yeah, I did, i did, but I learned quickly, you know, and it was a tough, it was a tight, it was frustrating because it was always people under bidding And so you get that type of client, but what you do is you learn about where those clients right, those are the clients that don't value your product Not necessarily you but they don't value the product enough to pay the price right.    0:37:01 - Tom They want to pay the cheapest, the biggest of the pain they are.    0:37:04 - Anne Exactly, exactly So. Wow, what a great conversation, tom. This has been so wonderful and enlightening for the bosses out there. I'm quite sure, tom, how can people get in touch with you and work with you?    0:37:17 - Tom Oh, go to vostrategistcom. I encourage you to book a free 15 minute consult. We can talk about any part of the voiceover industry that you want. I also have a video shop where I've got closing in on 30 different videos covering everything in the voiceover industry, from time management to workflow to genre exploration to managing your finances. I also have a great mentorship program where you can do 30 minute check-ins with me once a week, once a month or twice a month. It also gives you access to some of those videos for free. But, yeah, book a session with me, free session with me at vostrategistcom, and I'd love to chat with you.    0:37:50 - Anne Good stuff, tom. Yeah, bosses, today more than ever we need a strategy for moving forward in our business. So go to it, tom. Thank you again. I would like to talk to you bosses about. As individuals, you know, it can seem difficult to make a huge impact, but as a group, we can contribute to the growth of our communities in ways that we never thought possible. Visit 100voiceswhocareorg to learn how And a big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl You too can connect in network like bosses like Tom and myself. Find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye-bye.    Transcribed by https://podium.page

Our daily check-in with Tom Leffler of Leffler Commodities

AMDG. While the universality of the Church is beautiful, its immediacy is just as profound. Today Tom and Noëlle Crowe of the American Catholic History podcast join us to share how we don't need to cross an ocean to find people who did amazing things for Christ. They describe the breadth and depth of amazing Catholic individuals in this country, highlight contributions of Catholics to American history in every aspect of society from milking cows to landing on the moon, and emphasize the importance of “getting to know your own saints” as a key part of developing a strong foundation and identity. Links to check out: Pilgrimages led by Tom & Noëlle Crowe their Conversations series The American Catholic Almanac by Brian Burch and Emily Stimpson with research assistance by Tom Crowe Kolbecast episodes mentioned and relevant 94 A Boy, A Book, and a Library Mouse about Catechesis of the Good Shepherd 36 Embrace the Fifth Day A sampling of the American Catholic History episodes and offerings referenced in this episode Ark and Dove Blandina episode 1 and 2 The Catholic Saviors of Thanksgiving Founding Fathers category of episodes Julia Greeley Margaret Haughery Gene Kranz Joyce Kilmer Ponce de Leon and the First Mass Miriam Stimson Kolbecast episodes cover a range of topics relating to school at home, the life of faith, and Catholic education. Using the new filters on our website, you can sort the episodes to find just what you're looking for. You can also find the Kolbecast in most podcast players, so subscribe in your favorite app to never miss an episode! If you have a moment, please leave a rating and review, which will help the Kolbecast reach more listeners. What questions do you have about homeschooling, the life of faith, or the intersection of the two? Send your questions to podcast@kolbe.org and stay tuned for answers. You may hear them answered in an upcoming Kolbecast episode! Interested in Kolbe Academy's offerings? Visit kolbe.org.

https://go.dok.community/slack https://dok.community/ From the DoK Day EU 2022 (https://youtu.be/Xi-h4XNd5tE) Running a database on Kubernetes with persistent storage is relatively easy but when it comes to performance it won't match local NVMes. This talk will show you how to set up the local NVMes for Kubernetes, how to handle the application and cluster lifecycle in a safe manner and share our experience with running ScyllaDB with local NVMes on different Kubernetes cloud providers. Tomas leads the development of Scylla Operator (https://github.com/scylladb/scylla-operator), a Kubernetes operator to manage ScyllaDB. Previously, he worked on a self-hosted, auto-upgrading Kubernetes control plane for RedHat OpenShift. Tomas is an Emeritus Kubernetes SIG-Apps approver. Maciej is a Go and C++ enthusiast. He is a software engineer working on ScyllaDB management tools. Previously he worked in network companies where he delivered multiple features to SDN solutions and LTE networks.

Tomáš Nožka

Investing $50,000 in real estate can go a long way toward creating a diversified rental property portfolio that generates strong cash flow, provided that you do it right. Today we are asking each other the question how we would invest this amount of cash. In this episode, Tom, Emil and Michael share how they would invest $50,000 in real estate if they were just starting out, and if they know what they know now. --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Emil: Hey, everyone, welcome back for another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Emil Shour and today I'm joined by…   Tom: Tom Schneider   Michael: and Michael Albaum.   Emil: And on today's episode, we're going to be talking about how each of us would invest $50,000 in real estate, and we're gonna frame it as what we would do with that 50k when we were first starting out, versus how we would approach it now, so let's hop into this episode.   Well, I can't ask what's on your guys's mind? Because we just went through that so, huh… Hmm. You know, I used to have this boss that every every meeting every week, he would come in and just ask some random question to avoid the like, so how's everyone doing? That was like, it's a good way to kind of start a meeting, get like really random answers from people.   Tom: You got an example of one?   Emil: He would honestly as a really weird, he's like a weird dude. But like funny, weird. Yeah, probably not suitable for this show. The ones I remember.   Michael: There was a my, my wife loves David Sedaris. And he does a masterclass and he talks about comedy. And one of the questions he loves asking people was, so when was the last time you touched a monkey? He asked him on this and they were like, oh my gosh, like, can you smell it on me, I was working with him earlier at the zoo today? And he was like, no way and it led to him like being able to go play with the monkeys at the zoo. Like and that's why you should always ask random questions.   Emil: He had asked like 400 people, and they all I never spoke to him again, but that one person…   Michael: The one was a big one.   Emil: Then he finally got to meet a monkey at the zoo.   Michael: Yeah…   Tom: Bad news man, getting a baby monkey and then growing up a lot of sad stories about …like ripping arms off. Anyways, sorry…   Michael: That's a… go hard left fast…   Tom: Yeah.   Emil: All right with that we're gonna hop in and talk about real estate. So the topic today is how do you invest 50k? I think this will be interesting. If Michael ever gets it together here.   Michael: Oh man…   Emil: How would you invest 50k If you know what you know, now, but you're just starting out. So take yourself back to you have your current mind, you're going back to when you first started. So how would you invest 50k? And then we'll talk about you're at where you're at currently, you're 50 grand, you want to invest in real estate? What do you guys? What are we all doing? So who wants to kick off? Going back to the past with 50k?   Tom: So, Tom's gonna go first. I would… So me with real estate investing, I really enjoy real estate investing, but I also really enjoy the kind of passive nature of it, more probably more than Michael and Emil, I think they're like, way more active. So I think this is going to be a good diverse range of responses to this question. So what I would probably do so I'd say there's there's two options, right For me, as I also really like single family off of multifamily, just a little bit less to do plus less turns plus XYZ. What I, I would see this as two options, I can either go to, to pick buy two properties in more kind of class C markets, not not as in like, negative, but like smaller markets, right? Talking about like, maybe Birmingham or buy or like Memphis?     Emil: We'll call it Tier 3, it's classy…   Tom: Sure, sure. Sure. Sure. So the my options would be to that or to buy one property in like a Class B area, you know, maybe a, you know, Atlanta, Raleigh, you know, Dallas, one of those guys and where I am right now, if I had 50k, I'm still trying to deploy as much capital out there. I would get debt for sure. I would, I would max out my debt on it. You know, I … we know well, being conscious of not getting over my tips, making sure that my income could support my debt coverage. But I would probably, I'd probably got two properties in one of those smaller markets. But you know, I might have a old fishing pole in the water on some of those larger markets. If something were to come up, I'd cast a wider net, you know, it's a busier acquisition time. So that's why we deployed by SFR, I would look at those smaller markets max, loan to value most of it… That is what I would do, went a little bit long didn't it… Ehmm, yeah. Done…   Michael: Love it. Would you buy… Would you buy both in the same market? Do you think it would use spread them out? Peanut butter spread, as they say…   Tom: I would probably buy them in the same market. Again, like so important to that to develop a thesis when investing in me is a little bit less overhead. So just using a single property manager, you know, doing that work and finding the right property manager, maybe having them help me out on the acquisition side, as far as evaluating neighborhoods and whatnot. So yes, it's a market. Good question, Michael.   Michael: Love it, love it, love it.   Emil: So, Michael, what would you do?   Michael: I think I'm taking that 50,000 and like Tom gonna go get some debt. But I am probably going to go buy a multifamily building, something a little bit bigger that I could, you know, really, really scale with. And it's probably going to be a little more turnkey, because having done the whole multifamily value, add thing, it can often be a lot more expensive than first anticipated. So something that's, you know, relatively easy, stable. That's why you may go to but in close second, what I'm also going to be considering is going and using a 15%, down DSCR loan and going to go purchase a short term rental, which would probably be a single family out in one of those vacation markets that are out there. But I think it can be a really, really, really great use of cash to generate quick income to then go to buy additional properties.     Emil: Michael, for anyone who doesn't know, what is a stable multifamily property, what does that look like?   Michael: Yeah, it's something that has, it's really good question. First off, it's something that has probably already been rehabbed, either extensively or lightly, doesn't have a whole lot of deferred maintenance, rent is probably going to be pretty close to at market rent. So I'm not going to feel the need to, to get new tenants in place when their leases are expiring, because they're already up at market rent. Just something that has been taken care of, or well maintained. Doesn't need a whole lot of CapEx.   Tom: Short term rentals are interesting. How do you find your overhead as an owner relative to your multifamily single family versus long term versus short term rental? Do you find it pretty similar? I would imagine that there's obviously range like there's variants with each of them, but just general ality generally speaking…   Michael: Yeah, it's a big range and it so depends on like my older vintage multifamily, it's gonna be a little bit even less than some of the expense ratio on that just because that has a lot more maintenance, regular, recurring maintenance type issues. On newer single families, comparing across the board to long term versus short term, short term is definitely more expensive from an expense ratio standpoint. But the income generated is still stronger. And so from a cash on cash return, it's it's still performing quite quite well.   Tom: I bought this as a metric, number of times you as an owner, you have to like make a decision or get involved.   Michael: Oh, see, short term versus long term?   Tom: Yeah, yeah, I would think I mean, I would assume short term rental, like there's a little bit more overhead as an owner. Is that wrong?   Michael: Yeah, I don't think that that's, I would say that there is more on the front end. So like we were involved in the decorations and decision making process around what amenities to include, but from a day to day…   Tom: … FF&E and OS&E those are some acronyms, Michael…     Michael: What's a OS&E?   Tom: Oh, OS&E is operating supplies in equipment, and FF&E is furniture, fixtures and equipment.   Michael: Ahhh!   Tom: No big deal, just drop an acronym…   Emil: A unit count into, what's going on here?   Michael: Yeh, sounds like an accounting term.   Tom: I know about luxury man.   Michael: You're just steeped in luxury. But no, I would say other than that. It's pretty much about as hands off as as long term if not more. So. I've really I've made very few decisions, I've been involved in very few of the conversations, we're looking at converting the garage into additional space so that of course, there's a lot more involvement in but that would be the same as if I was doing some kind of rehab work on a long term rental.   Tom: I heard a great story a description of short term rentals as comparing them to fire trucks and that they're constantly getting turned and washed like a fire truck has been around but oh, it gets it gets a fresh wash every time it goes out. So like while you might think it's a you know, getting beat up a lot it perhaps it is but it's it's getting a lot of Washington. It's like a fire truck. I don't know. I like that.   Michael: Yeah, I think I mean, I think so and it's getting eyes in it every turn. So the festering kind of long term deferred maintenance stuff tends to not be again, for my experience as big of an issue because there's people constantly putting eyes on stuff. And if there's an issue you'll hear about it immediately. Like these tenants are going to tell you because they're paying good money to be in these places. Hey, this is an issue you need to fix it.   Emil: Are you is your short term rental being professionally managed, do you have a property manager?   Michael: Yes, yeah, I'm a full service property manager, I definitely pay for it. But I'm not. I'm not at the point where I can set, you know, neither myself or my wife or I are at the point where we have enough time to be able to learn how to do that remotely for this particular property. And you know, if anyone listening is interested in learning more about short term rentals, we did a podcast episode with Avery Carl, which was a phenomenal episode, in my opinion, where she talks all about the short term rental market, and short term rentals in general and things you need to be aware of, if you're going to get involved in this space.   Tom: Did you pencil… Emil needs to give his answer, but just really last question I have on that… Did you pencil it as a longer term rental as well, just to like, see what…   Michael: I did. And it doesn't work. And so I had to always take in the opinion that it has to work as both because if something changes, I don't want to be stuck holding the bag. And after extra chatting with Avery about the short term rental market, this is out in the Smokies. She was like yeah, but the thing of it is, is the regulations aren't going to change out there. Like it is such a through and through short term vacation rental market, that she is not concerned with it being the next Santa Monica or Santa Monica, city regulators come in and say I can't do Airbnb, because it's always been short term rentals. So that's given me a lot more comfort to say, okay, I'm okay, kind of taking that leap of having it only makes sense as a vacation rental?   Emil: Well, I had one final question. I asked Michael about the third party property manager because I, what I really want to know is how does your time commitment with a third, like you have property management and on a long term and a short term? How does your monthly time commitment in terms of speaking with your property manager being involved? Like how, how much more time is it with the short term compared to long term, if any?   Michael: You know, I have probably spent less time with the short term manager than I have with long term management. I was so impressed by this company, they've been awesome and they're just like really good at what they do. And I think that universally speaking, that's kind of what I would expect in the long term world as well, I have my that one of the best property managers I have is up in Alaska, I hear from him, like once a quarter, unless we're just calling to check, you know, checkup and chew the fact sort of thing. So if a property manager is good at their job, you really shouldn't hear from them, in order for you to make decisions, they could update you and tell you what's going on and this and that. But from a decision making standpoint, if I have to hear from you and talk to you regularly, like it's probably not going very well. Right Emil how would you spend in those 50 G's?       Emil: For me, if I'm just starting out, and I want to invest in real estate, I'm, I like single family as a first starting point. And we can debate this later on a showdown. I think single family is a good way to get started, I think having one tenant, one unit to worry about just a lot less hectic. And so I'd start with a single family, I would want to do a tier two city, somewhere where the climate isn't so severe, right? Like I have properties in Indianapolis and every winter, I'm like, man, our pipes gonna freeze and explode. You know, you hear all those stories. Usually, if you have a tenant who's there, like they're running the water, and that doesn't happen. But you know, if you have a turn in the winner, always think that could happen. So I choose something with a little bit less harsh climate, just because it's going to keep everything solid for a little bit longer. And I'd probably just use it on one property to get something a little bit better, ewe just talked about on a different episode, six things we wouldn't do, again, six mistakes and for me it was buying a really cheap property on the… in the beginning, I get something a little bit nicer, less headache, you know, newer build, that's just going to be an easy learning process for me, because the first one isn't going to be the make or break. It's really you're just like learning how to deal with real estate how to deal with the property manager all this stuff. So having it be something that's going to be better long term is what I would prioritize.   Michael: Are you okay, accepting less cash flow?   Emil: I wasn't in the beginning and on the other end of it now, yes, you should like it's not going to be a huge difference. You think it will be and you know, excel math will tell you different but it's a different story. I think when you get into it.   Michael: How much cash flow, how small of a cash flow are you willing to accept and still consider it cashflow positive?   Emil: For me like even like if you're being conservative, right, like not going oh, best case scenario, right? You're ending up with like at least $50 of cash flow a month right? I think that's a good place to be at least obviously, I…   Tom: Got to beat inflation, got to beat inflation.   Michael: Beat it back with a stick…   Emil: We don't, you know, we're just talking about cash flow and again, these this isn't going to be a make or break for you. You're trying to learn and you're trying to grow. You also have equity building right in a better property that's going to be more dollar like appreciation. 10% appreciation on something that's $250,000 Verse $100,000, you're gonna make more than that equity anyway, right? It's appreciating, it's a higher appreciation.   Michael: So you're sticking to one, one property… One more expensive property?   Emil: Yes, yeah.   Michael: Alright.   Emil: Not even just expensive to be expensive just better quote like a turnkey, nicely done property that I'm not going to have a ton of headache right out the gate.   Michael: Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.   Tom: It's been a few seconds on zero scape, just installed some fake turf on my backyard. It's killer man.   Michael: Is it good?   Tom: Yeah, yeah. And then like if leaves come on it you get the power washer. And just like my my own little zen…   Michael: What about dog puppies?   Tom: That's a thing. But you know, that's where the power washer. And also that's where gates like preventing the dog to go out there. Come in…   Emil: Anyway, anyways, you could also have a dog like mine who we have we have turf in the backyard too. It's like turf in concrete. And he is afraid of it doesn't like walking on turf. So he makes us take him out in the front yard where there's real grass to go. So that's fun.   Tom: He is natural… Michael: Some… double apply.   Emil: He's a purist. He's got a good taste.   Tom: Good for him.   Michael: So Tom, are you saving some of that 50,000, so you can install zero scaping in this investment property?   Tom: Yeah, probably. I mean, the right warranties are in place with the Zero Escape. You're like basically making money when you install it, so…   Michael: Are you, are you working on zero escape installation side hustle?   Tom: I am yeah, I got a, I got a, I got some, I got some hints.   Michael: You need a guy, I got a guy…   Emil: Probably not that awesome on a rental property. Like the ROI on that is, is not great.   Tom: Nooo, problem.   Michael: Depends on who is paying this utilities though…   Emil: Yeah…   Michael: If you include these utilities in your bill…   Emil: It's your tenant.   Tom: Oh…There could be markets Emil, before you jump the gun. There could be markets with it makes a ton of sense, Las Vegas, Arizona…   Emil: I prefer talking generalities, we're not getting into nuance on this on this podcast, sorry…   Michael: I thought you only spoken absolutes.   Emil: That's it, that's it…   Michael: Now you're speaking in generalities. Man pick one Emil.   Tom: Yeah.   Emil: Ehmm, absolute is what I met. It's not... Moving on. Alright, what do we do with $50,000 now? If $50,000 is now, in your investing career, what are you guys doing? You're not a beginner, you're at your stage now, so what's next?   Tom: I am making the transition to getting some multifamily, you know, I don't know, I don't actually know short term, Michael's got me hyped up on some learn a lot more about short term, I don't know. I'm all over the place right now. This is what I'm gonna do, this is what I am gonna do actually, I'm going to set up a coaching session with Michael and we're going to go through some options and get to the root of it. I swear to God, that's like the real answer, right.   Emil: That is actually a very solid strategy. Alright, Michael 50,000, I feel like I know where you're, where you're putting money, but if 50,000, where's it going?   Michael: Yeah. Now in today's world, I'm probably splitting that. Truth be told I'm probably do you like for sure a short term rental 50% down DSCR loan, and then I'll probably wait half or two thirds and then I'm taking the other half and I'll probably park it in a syndication to be perfectly honest and just kind of enjoy the passivity that syndications provide. It's, we've been doing a lot of podcasts recently and had a lot of passive investment experts on talking about benefits, pros cons of passive investing, and I'm like, huh at this stage of my career, it's definitely sounds interesting. My back's already, you know, a little tired from from caring so much. So I'm ready to slow down a little bit and just kind of enjoy the fruits of the labor.   Emil: Nice, yeah. I'm sagging into what I'd do, I'm right there with you. So I like that I have nowhere near the amount of units like you, right that I own directly, I have six units. I think that's perfect for me and where I'm at right now, I would put $50,000 honestly, either in a REIT or yeah, in a in a private deal or something like that. Something where I'm going to be completely passive. Just given we've got two little kids, we got the six units again, that we own directly and that takes off takes up enough time and you know, business I started a year ago that's taking up a lot of time as well and attention. So I'd be looking for something passive to pocket.   Michael: I love the fact that Emil, you mentioned that you have like little kids and so you're kind of at this stage in your life where the active hands on direct investment isn't a great fit for you. But that could easily change and so you go park your money and one of these indications. Hopefully it doubles or better in a couple years' time and then you get it back and you get to decide okay, well what I want to do next I want to continue the passive route now maybe the kids a little bit older, you have more time on your hands to do something else. So I love it. I think it's, it's such a good point that there's like seasonality to this whole investing thing.   Emil: Yeah, it's not like, I'm done direct investing. It's, I'm done direct investing right now. Like, we have what we have, we're good, we're not getting rid of those and it's time for a different strategy. But you know, life changes, maybe you have a windfall, whatever, and you're like, now I'm bored. And I want to go do something more challenging and I'm gonna go do some, some value add stuff myself, maybe even like, in a market closer to me, or what did you know there are just so many different ways you can take this and it's not like those strategies you start with is going to be the strategy you end with.   Michael: Mike drop Emil out.   Emil: Don't listen to me, I don't know what I'm talking about.   Michael: That's great, man. I love it, I love it… Should we get out of here?   Emil: Yeah, let's do it.   So thanks, everybody, appreciate you tuning in for another episode, hope you got some value out of this one. And as always, please leave us a review or subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. We love seeing that number go up, it boosts your ego and it keeps us coming back every week. So we'll catch you all in the next one. Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.  

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Author of Happy Ever After, The 7 Dollar Millionaire, joins us again to shed light on the complex world of personal finances. He shares tips on getting started, saving money, and aligning your goals with your family to work your way to financial peace of mind one step at a time. --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The remote real estate investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Michael: Hey, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the real estate investor. I'm Michael Albaum, and today I'm joined by my co host,   Tom: Tom Schneider.   Michael: And with us we have a very special repeat guests, the 7 Dollar Millionaire, if you recall, he wrote a book that we had him on chatting about Happy Ever After. And today, he's going to be talking to us again about personal finances, some things you can do to get started, as well as how to talk to your spouse or significant other or partner about personal finance. So let's get into it.   Michael: Awesome. Mr.7 Dollar Millionaire, thank you for joining us again, we so looking forward to recording with you.   7 Dollar Millionaire: It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me back on that says, this is a first for me. No one's ever invited me.   Michael: Well, hopefully the first of many. So how have you just curious how are things out in Singapore?   7 Dollar Millionaire: Things are just improved. Yesterday, we had like a mini re lockdown. So they call it circuit breaker here for about a month. Because there was a bit of a spike in cases. But that ended yesterday. The big change is very little apart from Oh, you're now allowed to go to restaurants, their restaurants are all closed. That's pretty much it. Gyms are kind of reopening slowly, that kind of stuff. But yeah, that was that was nice. It's nice to kind of go and get a meal somewhere, you know. But otherwise, it's you know, as with a lot of Asia, they're taking that kind of minimal risk approach to it.   So I mean, even when there was a spike, it was like 100 cases a day. 5 million people, right? I mean, it's still a very low number.   Michael: Yeah. But everybody in your world is healthy and safe.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Oh, yeah. Thanks. And you guys are on good.   Michael: Yeah, we just chatted with some family friends of ours yesterday, and they are double vaccinated. But she and her daughter just got his tested positive. So she had a breakthrough case. So she's feeling pretty crummy at the moment. But I'm hoping that she's hoping she's not going to go to the hospital or anything like that. So the breakthrough cases don't seem to be as severe as the unvaccinated stuff.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Fingers crossed. Yeah, fingers crossed. touchwood. Right. That's that's the big hope. As long as it stays like that we can live with it. Right?   Tom: I have a friend who had a breakthrough case who's also vaccinated. And he's got a wife and three little kids and his wife and three little kids didn't, didn't catch it. So he's hanging by himself. And you know, I feel much more for his wife, who's managing a house full of Toddlers and Babies versus him who's just hanging out at their their lake. Well, he's men. He's on the men. He's feeling much better. But it's Yeah, really.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Did she get did she get like a second opinion on that? Right. Yeah.   Michael: Thank goodness.   Tom: Yeah. Doing recovering. Well, good, good.   Michael: Well, Tom, it's it's funny as the wrong word. But interesting. This kind of segues nicely into what we want to chat with the 7 Dollar Millionaire about today. Again, circling back and talking some more about personal finance. But a question that I have is, so often people have these target goals in mind, and whether that's net worth or cash flow monthly annual basis. But that's so often based on today's needs, for their whatever family is currently in the picture. And I've got to imagine that changes over time. And so as someone who doesn't have kids, I don't have a really good sense of what kids costs, it could be 20 bucks a day, it could be 100 bucks it you know, I don't have a good sense for that. So how do you recommend folks think about not only their cash flow needs for today, but also for their future selves, as they continue to age but also as additional family members may enter the picture?   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, I mean, it's a it's a there's no right answer, right?   Michael: I mean, I mean, oh, well, then we can we can we can cancel the show. We're done here.   7 Dollar Millionaire: There's just no single one right answer. I mean, the first step with the first answer to this is actually just taking the first step start actually doing some work, right. I think I was working recently with talking about how you make all the progress in personal finance. And a lot of people are discouraged because they think they can't come up with an answer. And it's like painting, right? The first blob of paint on the on the canvas doesn't look like the painting You can't expect it to you go put it on, put it on, put it on. Only after a long time does it actually start to get to the real picture, and it's the same, it's exactly the same with this. You just got to start doing the work. And starting doing the work is actually working out what you want your kids to be like, what kind of life you want to live with them where it's going to be, and the kinds of expenses you're going to have.   So you can roll that stuff out pretty easily. I mean, so For me, because I was an expert, I had to put my kids in international school, there's some serious education expenses. You know, it's like the, for me, when my kids went to college, they got cheaper. I mean, that doesn't happen very often, right? My kids got a lot cheaper when I was paying for them to live in a foreign country, flying them backwards and forwards and paying college fees, they were cheaper than the local education costs for me.   So that's how individually these things can be right? I mean, you just have to do that. So you have to look forward and you think, okay, and I'll give you perfect opposite example, really good friend of mine used to live like five floors below where I had seen the apartment block right here. He's got for various reasons, he ended up with like, kind of one of those joint families who so like, five kids under the age of five, you know, bizarrely, and really bonded, situated,   Tom: Yeah, Brady Bunch situation.   7 Dollar Millionaire: And he's, he's like a, he's a fund manager, based in Singapore. And he worked out that he could actually, it made sense for him to quit his job and move back to California, because paying for five kids in local education system here, when you know, that, and everything else, it's cheaper to move to a place with a good free education system and have a normal job rather than trying to have a high paid job and pay those kinds of costs.   So that's how individual all of these kinds of decisions get to be. The first thing is just to sit down and, and dream a little, right, exactly. Who do you want your kids to be? And how do you want to live with them. And because a lot of the costs, like your actual food costs, it's not a big deal, it's really not going to be an enormous deal. So the basic, you know, adding one bedroom to the house may or may not be a big deal, depending on on where you're at. And then after that is things like education and flying, holiday is right, they do cost literally an extra person on every single thing you do, when you start and that's times 20 years, right?   So there's, there's some, there's a lot of extra costs on that kind of stuff. And it's really just sitting down and working out those kinds of things, and those kinds of budgets. And then as you move closer, closer towards the end, you'll realize exactly what is going on, you'll get a much closer impression. But as always, it's just start, just sit down with a piece of paper and just go, Okay, I think it could be this, and then find out the extra information that you'd actually need. Because it can be a scary amount, or it can be really, if someone for someone like me, that was having to pay man it was 15 years of 14 years of school fees. I don't want to think what that was, you know, really, I definitely don't want to, you know, PV it, I mean, that's just insane amount of money. But you know, had to be done for In my case, if you don't have that you don't need to put it in.   Tom: I love that analogy of the paint, and it just kind of evolving a little bit over time. As far as, you know, practically getting the paint down, would you recommend a model where, say this is in Excel, and each row is like a year, and then, you know, perhaps there's some different sort of expenses within the different rows, or it's just like a really kind of basic form of that is that sort of a rough construct is, and I'm sure it's you know, could be a little unique for everyone. But that's immediately where my mind goes is seeing in that sort of a model.   7 Dollar Millionaire: That's definitely where I think you move it, I actually like to do a pen and paper to start with, I think there's a, there's kind of a free flow, when you're actually kind of sit down with pen and paper and just as scribble stuff out. I've even tried doing it on my iPad with you know, like the sketch but it doesn't work as well, there isn't that sort of connection, which sitting there with a piece of piece of paper and a pen for 10 minutes, and just sort of scribbling out the bunch of the cost because we're all prepared to be kind of messy on a piece of paper, right, and we can just draw in things and loop them around, that connects to that, scribble that out and need this.   And then once you've got probably only 10 minutes in, you can move that to a spreadsheet, seven or eight lines, seven or eight lines is going to get you most of the way to the kind of things you're thinking about.   Michael: And Tom, I'm curious not to put you on the spot here in the hot seat but having a young child is this an exercise that you went through with your wife and was this conversations that you had prior to the little one arriving?   7 Dollar Millionaire: You know, I was actually so I'm in my mid 30s now and when I was in my mid 20s and early 20s actually was way more active about kind of performing out like 20-30 years in advance so I actually had to pull back the old spreadsheets pain analogy I think it's probably time to have another round I love these interviews with you 7 Dollar Millionaire I literally after our last call that we had I went and totally redid all my you know auto deposit into my investing and I already have some immediate action items from from this one. So just to kind of go back I was I not not so much with these with with my current kid but I think it's an exercise to go revisit some work that I did in my mid 20s.   7 Dollar Millionaire: It's always good to know right? It's also good to know how good you are at modeling. Where you make mistakes and modeling, I mean, we we professionally we do that. And it's you know, you can be miles out. But if you actually, I mean, there's a company modeling, we're actually modeling like an investment will have various inputs that we can that we can change them to go back and you look and go, Oh my god, I was miles out, but then you realize that one of the inputs was x, y, zed, which turned out not to be remotely true. So you can, okay, then change that. And sometimes it kind of comes back to closer to reality. So all these things are really, really important to actually just understand how well you model because it's not like you have to stop modeling, or you never stop acts.   And modeling is like, it sounds like it's too specific to what we do. But we're all forecasting all of the time. Now, my favorite analogy for forecasting and how we're all forecasting all the time, is we all pretty much expect chairs not to break when we sit in them, right?   I mean, even some of my weight, I don't expect the chair to break when I sit in it. But I pretty certainly if you if you sat on three chair, three different chairs in a row, and they broke every time, that fourth chair, you'd be like pushing it scratching it thinking, Okay, is this thing solid, you'd have lost all your trust in chairs, that's just forecasting. It's just natural forecasting. We do it all the time. And so knowing if you're good or bad at it is a is an amazing life skill.   Tom: Do you find that most people are overly optimistic when forecasting I guess you could apply this to business or to kind of personal? I'd love to hear your kind of thoughts on, I guess human nature and in applying forecasts and ways to beat yourself and be better at it.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, I honestly, unfortunately, it really it is really bad answer. But 50% of people are better than average. And there's no other way of looking at it. I think the key is most of us aren't doing it particularly consciously most of the time. And so sense of like actual aware forecasting and awareness of how optimistic or pessimistic we tend to be. Pessimists, I mean, pessimism is one of the reasons that overcaution is what keeps a lot of people out of the markets. Right. And because they think of it as markets, right, they don't think of it as I'm working. I'm living in this economy, and not being in it with my capital is essentially an enormous risk that this economy is going to crash and burn. I'm literally taking that investment option. And not seeing it that way keeps them out because they view it as being very, very high risk and pessimistic because they don't understand it enough.   Let's throw some analogies around that's just like being in the dark, right? It's just being in the dark, you can walk out into your hallway with no light, and you can't find your way along the hallway anymore. Right? That's, it's it's still there. Everything's exactly where I was people without the education. I mean, we're moving back into financial education, right. It's what keeps people out. It's they're unsure, they're in the dark. And that's why I think creates most of the pessimism and overcaution around it.   Yeah, there's a bunch of people who, too, you know, too optimistic, too. But that's what I mean. I tend not to mind it when when investing, I don't engage over optimism. But when I'm doing things like a little bit more entrepreneurial, then yeah, I shoot for the moon. There's just no point right? or shoot for the stars even then you get the moon there's no point not being no point starting an endeavor without thinking it's going to be amazing.   Michael: Yeah, I love that analogy about being in the dark. I wonder though, your take on, when people have gotten out into the hallway realize that it's not that scary. Or maybe they've gotten a little flashlight, it a little bit of education, they understand. And now they think, Well, I know everything. And so how does that that little bit of education, a little bit of knowledge, not get overblown, and a bit turned into overconfidence, where now you are taking risks, well beyond your your light beam, so to speak.   Tom: Great point, Michael.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, it, it's it's actually why I think it's so important. This gets taught in schools. And, you know, there's, there's a bunch of different sides on this. But it's, that's why, you know, why are we confident reading? Right, we're confident reading because we've been taught it at such a young age, right? This is this is how we have that kind of confidence. Why are we not confident in a foreign language? Because we weren't taught it. We don't know any of the words, we don't know how this thing's put together. And we need that it's, it's about having that broad underpinning to what we do, and it's why it needs to be taught in schools because any other way, you're coming in at some random entry point, right?   So some friend tells you the you know, you should trade options on Robin Hood because I made x, y, zed and then you kind of get in there and you learn a little bit about it. Maybe you have like some Beginner's luck and you do quite well. That's now your little wheelhouse. It may just may be a good wheelhouse for you. It may be a terrible one. More likely the second option, right. So that becomes your think that's what you need that we need the education to make sure we get a little bit of light in all areas.   I mean, I'll give you a perfect example for this. I so the CFA exams Chartered Financial Analyst. I'm not one I did level one.I got way too busy to do levels two and three, my first daughter was born like immediately after getting level one. And level one even just shows you the entire spectrum. So you kind of you get like a beginners entry level on everything. And that's like, you kind of you know where to come back to later. Right? If I need to calculate a bond price, I can't do it off the top of my head, but I know where to read. I know where to look. And then I'd know how to do it. And that, obviously, that's a little bit specific for most people. But that kind of general entry level stuff is I think, you know, what's needed otherwise, you do end up with the flashlight, or moving from analogies. Under the under the street lamp looking for their keys, right?   You know, the stories like, you know, and the guy's looking for his keys under the street lamp and a piece of wedge, you lose them over there. So why are you looking here? Well, this is where the light is, right? That's it's so important to just have like a basic level of light.   Tom: To know what you don't know. Definitely.   Michael: Yeah, that's Yeah. I'm curious to know, in your opinion, if someone is looking to invest in the next 12 months, they're looking to get educated and wanting to get involved, whatever investment class they deem is in their wheelhouse, where should they be keeping those funds? Should that be something that they're investing the whole time labeling? And, you know, dollar cost averaging? Or should they kind of wait till they have enough funds to do something with curious to get your thoughts?   7 Dollar Millionaire: Okay, well, always dot dollar cost average, unless there's like a ticket price that, you know, makes that unavoidable that you have to go in single level, like, like some kinds of property, right, where you have to have a certain amount of downpayment, and that's the minimum you can get involved. The great thing about other asset classes is you can dollar cost average in the tiniest amounts. And you always should, I mean, cuz, you know, you can't predict the future, you don't know if it's gonna go up or down, right. So you should try and remove as much of that risk as possible. And dollar cost averaging is the is the free way of doing that.   Michael: Right.   7 Dollar Millionaire: So right, so always dollar cost averaging, I think there's a one thing that I quite like is what I think of it in my head is like a reverse ladder. So you know how you have ladders on fixed deposits, time deposits, whatever they call them. In the US, you know, where you can get kind of get like a little bit more return, if you lock the money into a deposit account for longer, let's say three months, six months, whatever it is, and you stagger it in. So you put in like a sixth this month and a six the next month, and then you do that over six months. So you got the money, you got access to six of the money every single month, you can put it put it into those and then actually dollar cost into the thing you're putting it into. So you can sort of you're still making a little bit of money doesn't have to sit as pure cash. Right.   Michael: So so go get six CDs.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, exactly.   Michael: on six month intervals. And okay, gotcha.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, exactly right. And then you can just plug it straight in. And you might only be making like an extra, like a few bucks. But this is how you make money, right is by it's like that little extra, which for no risk, right? That's always the key a little bit extra, no risk is better than a lot extra for a lot of risk. So just that just that small, those small moves are always useful.   But I think also one of the other things to do is depending on the asset class, if if what you're doing, if the cash you've got is a long way away from the asset class, then it does make sense to have some kind of hedge if it's possible. So I mean, I think one of the things often is say, like, being able to put some of the money into a REIT in advance of buying a property.   So let's say if there's like, if you're going to buy property in New York for some reason, then there's a new york rate, if you can do enough analysis around that read to understand it's like, oh, this is, this is pretty similar, this should go up when my property goes up, it should go down when my property goes down, you can at least put some of the money as you're building towards that downpayment into the REIT and then hedge out a little bit of that extra risk. Because, I mean, the risk on property is nearly always, everywhere in the world, the government prints more money, right? I mean, properties actually don't…   Micheal: Inflation.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, well, yeah, properties don't often go up in value, your money goes down in value in terms of property, right, that's what actually happens. So actually, removing that risk is is is useful. So I'd always think through these ways, rather than thinking, yeah, just chucking money in now. Just steady push it in steadily as it's just if you can, if you have the patience.   Tom: That's a that's a good discipline. I mean, it kind of related as an act of discipline I can think of like going to a, like a kiss going to Las Vegas or something and playing blackjack and it's like, oh, do I push it all in on one hand or do I slowly and you're gonna have a better time to her a little bit slower. I guess that kind of really kind of relates to having fun at the casino versus having fun at.   7 Dollar Millionaire: It is a good point because I do the exact opposite. I really don't like being in casinos and when I'm forced to go to them, I put it all in on one hand and literally   Michael: Walk away.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Just like get this over and done with either make a lot of money on one hand, or we are I'd leave and have a better time than I would do by sitting at a blackjack table, losing money steadily.   Michael: I love how you knew kind of exactly where I was going with the question with regard to property investment. Because I mean, Tom you were in a similar situation with regard to you had some cash or cash out refinance, you were looking to deploy it. And in the meantime, you were thinking about putting it in the market, and I think you ultimately did. And then there was some fluctuation in the market. And you're like, Whoa, this is not this is not feeling good. So you pull back a little bit, right?   Tom: Yeah, yeah, just, I think like within, there's more, like risky allocations, and then safer allocations. And I think, being cognizant of kind of which risk profile I was investing, versus the strategy I initially did was go running up to the blackjack table and throwing it all down. And, you know, thankfully, didn't get getting didn't get burned too bad. But, you know, stepped back away and left the casino and invested in a nice asset allocation that was comfortable for the time horizon at which I wanted to spend it. So..   7 Dollar Millionaire: That's I mean, that's, that's, that's also the other point is actually nothing wrong with taking a second most important thing of investing is actually understanding your own psychological needs, because you can't invest against them. It's really, really hard to actually invest in a way that you don't think is correct for you. So taking too much risk. And just I mean, I don't have sleepless nights with what I do for a living. Because I don't invest in a way that is wrong. For me. I actually feel like I understand what I do. Whenever I hear people like they have sleepless nights like that's because your style investing does not match what you actually believe. I mean, that just can't be. That can be the only reason I think what you did, there was smart.   So the only way I've done this in the past is that I buy I bought properties in the past in, in foreign countries I have bought in Singapore, once I buy in the UK, I bought in Japan, I bought in Australia, one of the things when I know I'm going to do that is I immediately switch the money into that currency. If I think it's cheap, I think it's expensive. I don't.   But I try and you know, work because current currency, and I do sometimes take a view on the currencies. So you know, but that's it's that kind of move. So for example, I think I kept I think I kept just cash in a deposit in Sterling for about three years before I bought a property there because I wanted to take away because it was cheap. And I wanted to remove the currency risk, that it would get more expensive at that particular time. Basically, the moment Brexit happened and the pound and the pound collapsed, I put money into Sterling, because I knew I'd be thinking about buying a house not long after,   Michael: I think I've mentioned this to you in the past, Michael, but I really took it on the nose with the currency exchange because I bought a place in Portugal. And it was right around February, January, when we were looking at doing a transaction and the dollar against the Euro was like 94 cents. And it has just continued to climb and climb and climb. And so this is going to be great. This is going to be an equal transaction, by the time I go to actually pull the trigger. And so I waited, waited, waited and then COVID hit and the dollar just tanked. And I really got taken to the carwash on that one.   So I think that makes sense is if if you if you know what it is today, that's worth something and how you feel about it, I think is also important, but also a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Well, it's it's actually a lot of these things is understanding future liabilities, and not just your existing liabilities, but your future liabilities. And that's one of the ones like with kids, right? You're going to have these are future liabilities, you've got costs down the road. And if you know that you've got, you want to have a place in Portugal, then if you think the currencies pretty decent, and you know, you don't have a view either way, you can just put that money into into euros immediately and just remove that risk, right, there's no risk now. Right?   If that money wa s just gonna sit, and you could have it in euros doing something else, I mean, you can still take another risk on top of that, but at least you've closed off that currency risk. And currencies, they move around a lot. I mean, there's, you know, within like a two or three year timeframe, they can really shift. And that's a risk that's nice not to have or even potentially gain you can make rather than, you know, taking that huge risk.   Tom: So backtracking Just a minute, a little bit ago, you were talking about if you were to evaluating buying property in New York, and you know, parking it into a REIT in that space. I never and then you know, you can research that read I never thought of that, because they're sort of there's this is, you know, primarily single family rental investors. There are single family rental REITs out there. And is the idea to maybe to to learn more about that specific REITs that you're going into that asset class like to benchmark what kind of returns you what are my totally hearing this on a different?   7 Dollar Millionaire: I think you know more about the US property market than I do. So I'm, uh, yeah, you're probably hearing things I don't know, all I mean is is as close as you can remove risk, I'm not talking about actually   Tom: Sure getting as close.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, the closer the asset thing, the asset class you're going to buy, you're removing as much risk as you possibly can. So if it's in similar geography, in a similar asset class in a similar geography, it still may not correlate, and there's nothing you can do about that there may be a problem with the REIT, and there may be a problem with a manager and maybe a problem with something else. But if you're going to buy commercial property in New York State, if you can find a commercial property right, in New York State, yeah, then maybe maybe there'll be reasonably correlated, and you're taking a risk there, that, you know, there's no reason for cash to be correlated to it, there's definitely no reason for any other asset class to be correlated to that thing. So just a little bit of work and probably find you, okay, what's the new what's the New York State REIT, which ones are similar? Bang, okay, that one might reduce my costs and reads tend to pay pretty good dividends as well. So you actually could get paid out while you're doing it. So the return could be stronger, while being more correlated. And that's kind of all you're aiming for. with that.   But I mean, I'm gonna say as well, I don't know, if I mentioned on last couple of one of my it's a small family single, you know, real estate, is actually just such one of the best asset classes to be in as an individual. Just because it's not not something that big corporations do particularly well. And that's where it's sort of maybe steer clear of big corporations tend to do big properties very well, right. It's just like one guy making a decision pushes a button, and then the whole building does x, y, zed, right? Whereas when you look at what we all live in, so small fixer uppers, those single unit setup takes an enormous amount of management to run as a business.   So that's one of the reasons I love real estate as an asset class is because the world's capital is not trying to jump into this, right, it's just individuals doing the thing they do. So we can have an advantage. But within the REIT, maybe less if you get too specific, too granular. And I just sort of aim, you know, and the other thing would be to not get into to smaller thing, right? You want it to be liquid, you want it to be well traded, you know, one reasonably well known   Tom: That makes sense definitely.   Michael: Makes a ton of sense. I'm curious, Michael, do you have generic guidelines or principles when you're teaching, you know, financial education to folks around how much of someone's paycheck or how much someone's net worth should be broken down and spent on the different typical categories? So housing, or transportation or food entertainment? Do you have a pie chart that you that you utilize?   7 Dollar Millionaire: No. I mean, there is one, right. There's the 50 30 20, that is commonly used. And it's a great starting point, I actually think the 50 30 20 is a great starting point. But I think there's just too many examples of people who do way better than that, than I do. You know, you don't want to set the goalposts too easy, right? You know, you just come across people who are saving half or even three quarters of their of their income, and you don't want to tell them, You should save 20 it's similarly right, you know, it's just like, but the only one I really use is like, never go above like a third of your income on property.   And I think if you can keep it below that number, pretty much everything else starts to slide with it. Right? You start your cut, a lot of other costs are gonna be I mean, so in the book Happy Ever After I use 50 3020 as a starting point, but then say, Well, yeah, you know, but what if you could do 30 30 10? Right, you know, 30 30 30 30 30 40, because it would be, because 30 30 10 doesn't add up great. But if you can keep those costs down, all of those extra the 1530, way below those numbers, you're adding up to a much higher number on the 20. And that's the thing, I think, to use that 50 30 20 is a great thing to say to someone who's saving zero, or 5%.   Tom: Sorry, just to clarify the 5030 is 50% is your needs housing, grocery grocery, all that 30% is the ones and 20% savings. Is that the?   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's, I mean, it's not that I didn't invent that. I think that's a standard financial personal finance tool. And, you know, as as with the glob of paint, right, it's a great job of paint, unfortunately, it's kind of it sounds to 20 20% is gonna have you if you did it from the age of 20 20% is going to have you retired somewhere in your 60s. It's not amazing, right? That it's it's, it's better than not, but it's it's not amazing, and that's where I wouldn't want to see it to see us as I try to use it just as a general this is dob of pain. 20 is great, but if you want to do better, you should aim for better.   Michael: Yeah, that makes tons of sense. And I think that's great. I love I love that dob of paint analogy. I think it makes so much sense. I'm a very visual person. So that that resonates with me.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Cool. That's good. That's really good. Because it's because I wrote it for for a new book I'm working on. So I'm glad it works. I'm trying it out with you guys.   Michael: Are you really writing a new book?   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, yeah. This is actually the first morning in about three weeks I am, I've got up to talk to you guys instead of getting up to write. But I've been writing to non stop for last three weeks.   Michael: Awesome. Can Can we get a little preview as to what it's about?   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, it's it's an attempt to combine Zen mindfulness practice and personal finance. So I'm trying to map I'm trying to get that Venn diagram. I feel at the moment, those Venn diagrams are like, here, I'm just trying to merge them. But in many ways, I feel that they merge really easily. It's like, you know, it's what is tracking what is tracking your spending, if not being mindful of what you're doing?   Right. I mean, you sit down and journal but journal your expenses, right actually know what you're doing in life, I actually think they they align quite neatly, I just haven't seen anyone do it before. And, and I, one of the things I've realized more and more about personal finance is that the SEC, the same five or six things, we all need to know how to do the basics. But we need to approach every person in a slightly different way to get those five or six things in. Once you're in, you'll learn them really fast, but you need to get in.   And that's why I sort of just occurred to me will be a fun thing to do. So yeah, I need it to be fun. As well, I need to actually want to be able to, if I have to get up at six in the morning, I have to want to   Tom: Yeah, big, big mindfulness fan, I try and do have a personal retreat every year. And man, I can just see how a lot of those concepts of just being present is so relevant. And you can basically apply it to anything and it's so natural into, you know, the currency that, that our resources that we live off of its camp can't wait for it to talk more about it and for it to come out.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Cool. Well it come at it. Well, if I finish it, it should come out next year. That's exactly what it is. I mean, it is this sense of in every place in our finances, if you're not aware, they take control of you rather than the other way around. And if you can be aware and mindful of what you're doing. So even to the standard market to you over emotional, are you under emotional, you know, how are you what's actually going on in you, that is making you do things that are not to your benefit and understanding those things are such important drivers and in the in the space. So addressing all those things. Equally, what's quite nice is I feel like I can recycle the some of the Happy Ever After book as well, because the middle of the middle bit of this book is a man being the same steps mission, money income saving, spending, investing, owning now those steps.   And so rather than to using sort of like the fairy tale, we sort of really creating a path. And as with so many things on sort of mindfulness, this is a path, you have to understand the path and now you hear whether the dob of paint was coming in, right? Don't get upset that you don't know where you're at, you're just putting a dob of paint is just the first dollar painting this will build. And that's Yeah, that's why I'm so happy like the analogy cuz it's right up the front.   Michael: Oh, this is great. I'm very excited to read the book. I want to shift gears here a little bit. And I'm curious to know if you have any tips or tricks or guidelines for folks to have these types of financial, personal financial conversations with a spouse partner significant other, because so often I hear in the Roofstock Academy is Hey, I'm all on board for real estate, but my husband isn't, or my wife isn't or my partner isn't interested? How do you bring them in in a productive way?   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, it's hard. And you know, you, it's okay, we're gonna get back to the mindfulness, but just for a second, and I'll come back to this, right, because   Tom: It's all part of everything   7 Dollar Millionaire: You have to know is that you, you can only affect yourself, you can't create change outside yourself, you can only create change inside yourself. So you, you can't force a partner to come up to your speed when you want them to. So that's the number one understanding. So you got to be ready for them to not be prepared to do this.   The second thing is, it's why I wrote the book is for the original one happy ever after it was to outsource a lot of the conversation with this time, but that time with my daughter to paper, get her to read it. So I don't have to go through an enormous amount of the background of how this works, right? It I can just imagine it. When I realized my daughter didn't know anything about money. I was like, I've got a teach her this stuff. I don't want to spend every weekend for the next year having daddy daughter money lectures, because that's just you know, it's wrong.   Right? So but if I write her book, she can read it in their own pace, and we can have those conversations and she's already up to speed. Right? So to get some level of outsourcing so to encourage, could you read this book, have a look at this, what do you think about this, and then let the person do it in their own time. So they'll come up to speak because again, we go back to that you can only change you they have to change themselves on on their timeframe.   I think the other thing is too, sometimes it's useful just to have like a group budget as a track as a family exactly where all the money goes. Because that That, to me is like, is the starting point we're spending money on on these things. And you know, if there's any dispute, it's like, let's get the, let's get the receipts out, this is actually exactly where all our money went in the in this period. Because I think that's the, I think it's very difficult to jump from an investing mindset. Jump to it, without going through saving. And you have to warn you that that requires understanding your spending.   So those two things combined to be like, okay, we understand that what we're saving and what we're spending, okay, now we can invest our asset class, we can we can move on to as you said, How do I get my spouse to think about real estate, they're probably not thinking about it, because they're not probably not thinking about the saving and spending, the moment you think about your, I'm going to give up this spending to save the money, you tend to get a lot more interested in how much money that money is going to make for you. So you tend to get a lot more interested in the asset class. So I that's why I do see these things as being a 1234. And then you can get them interested in the asset class.   Tom: Maslow's hierarchy of conversations to have with your significant other. Yeah, it's, so this is a one would be, I guess, spending, saving, and then more offensive investing that I understand this kind of triangle correctly.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Okay, I will never allow spending to go in front of saving savings by okay. It's in the dictionary in the book in life saving comes first, right? Get the saving done first. And the saving is how you top up your yield. So the safe spending is cutting down on your spending is how you top up your savings. Right? Did you put the put the savings away first.   But yeah, and then once you've got savings, you need to do something with them. And so the thing you do with them is what asset class and then you can have those conversations. But if the person isn't engaged in the saving, right, then they're probably saying I don't want to invest in real estate, because actually, I'd rather be spending the money on a car.   And you've got to move the people have got to be with you on those steps. And it's, if then if they haven't got those fundamentals like Well, yeah, we could buy the car, but these savings will double in 10 years time and quadruple in 20, et cetera, et cetera. And then we'll be setting we can have as many cars as we want, if that's your thing. But let's just actually understand our priorities today, and where we want to be with that.   But I do think it's really important not to make that a face to face conversation too often, unless you're both open to that and let that someone like me, let an author let a book, let a TV show, do the heavy lifting, right? I mean, and then then have the conversation subsequently.   Michael: So for anybody listening, needing to broach this subject with a partner, spouse, you can either go get Happy Ever After by 7 Dollar Millionaire, that's great.   7 Dollar Millionaire: I couldn't have said it better myself. Love it, love it.   Michael: I know you're not really familiar with the US system of Roth versus non Roth, but we can talk about it in a higher level discussion. And so in the US, we have Roth and non Roth retirement accounts. A Roth is simply you pay the tax on the dollars that you invest on the front end, and then you get tax free growth and distributions on the back end, versus a non Roth is you get a tax benefit of reducing your taxable income today, it grows tax deferred, and then when you go to remove those dollars, it gets taxed at that point in time. Do you have a sense for pros cons, how people might be thinking about this?   7 Dollar Millionaire: The only thing that go into there is I'm assuming there are some other sub clauses in terms of what your access to the money in the intervening periods? Right? So I'm guessing from what you've said, that the one where you get, like, you pay tax now and you'd be don't pay tax on on the eventual money. You can only take it out on a certain date. And if you take it out between those dates, I'm assuming there's some kind of penalty as the as the price of actually getting a tax tax, tax free later on, are tax exempt.   Whereas the other one sounds more like well, if you know, you're actually if you're not being taxed on the money that goes in that's probably fairly similar. But I'm guessing it's probably a little bit freer money in terms of you can probably access it at any point in time.   Tom: The big gating factor between the two is there's limitations on who has access to use a Roth, this one that's taxed up front, and that your income needs to be under a certain level.   Michael: But the access to the funds are fairly similar in that you pay a penalty on both if you remove them before your retirement age. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think if you can afford it, you probably want to put the money away that you can take it out later tax free. That to me sounds like you know, because then you, hopefully if it's a long period of time, and it compounds reasonably well, that's a bigger number than the money you're putting in. And that's how the only thing I could think of that. Honestly, these things is weighing me up. I people make tax codes way too complicated.   It's just like they make tax codes complicated. And then don't teach financial literacy in schools. The idea of this is beggars believe, right? The problem with making them complicated is very often, it tells people like, it's like, we go back to a dog with pain, right? We go back to our dob of pain, someone is telling you, I need you to paint the Mona Lisa, and you've never painted before, you're scared to put the first piece of paint on, you won't, you'll just, you know, you'll have you'll kind of you'll have like a punk rock moment, and you'll toss the canvas and break it on the wall and walk out the room.   That's what everyone does. Everyone's just like, this is too hard. I'm not doing it. And so you stop people actually getting involved. So I am going again to run again, all of these systems are way too hard. The correct answer is save them money, one of those will be doing deep, it will be better than none of them and don't over stress it.   Personally, I probably go to have the tax deferred later. Because I want the money to compound my age, that's probably wrong. Because I'm you know, I'm probably begin taking the money out in 10-15 years, so might not compound that much. And I might be better off actually having more money now. And I suspect that's where the differential is. That's probably where, you know, that's where the delta is on that. But God, I mean, that's just way too hard. Sorry, not telling you off it. But it's way too hard a question to put to someone who probably has very minimal financial literacy, I could probably work out what the right answer is with a spreadsheet. That means it's a really bad policy to be offering people. Sorry to criticize your country.   Tom: I like it.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Okay, good.   Tom: My wife's a tax attorney and keeps keeps busy. Yeah, moving tax code.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Oh man. It's actually it's actually also one of the reasons why, you know, the financial literacy thing is so important, because you can't trust governments with this stuff. In the we all think that everything we experience from childhood has been around forever. The reality is, before the Second World War, most people were dying around 65 70, they did not get a pension because they didn't need it. They were literally going to last maybe four or five years after they after they finished work, they would expect to work to death. And only after the Second World War, do we get this mass input of pension schemes? And which is why in lots of countries, they're just paid out of government revenues. And I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. But it does. What it means is it's not necessarily going to be around forever. Tax codes aren't around forever. And it's one of the things that I worry too much about putting too much time into worrying about tax codes. Because by the time you take the money out, you'll have been through five different tax codes. It will all have changed so many times that if you try to think long range about tax, you're doing the wrong thing, because the risk on that is enormous.   Michael: That's such a good point. I think so many people hear about Taxco changing scramble to do whatever they can. And then next president next administration comes around things change scramble to do what we can and then you know, over and over and over again.   7 Dollar Millionaire: The people that make the money are Tom's wife. They make all the money!   Tom: She is just there, interpretating whatever, whatever comes out. Yeah,   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, exactly.   Tom: It's good for the Schneider family. It's good for them.   Michael: That's great. Well, I think we just got to wrap this up, Tom, any other questions for the 7 Dollar Millionaire?   Tom: No, I love it. I think of all of our podcast guests. I never have more like impactful like meaningful, like things that I go off and do after the episode. So I really appreciate you coming on super excited about the book coming out.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Yeah, thanks very much for that. It's, it's, um, I'm really excited about it, too. It was the publishers Wiley to appeal to published happy ever after. And they, they asked me when I kind of that they were actually publishing happily ever after they said, do you want to do a follow up? And I was like, No, no interest. The and it because I took that to mean that did they want me to write teaching my daughter how to invest properly, and not as a cop out? That's just too complex.   You know, the reason I write what I write is I'm interested in getting people off the ground up to being able to understand other books. I'm not interested in the other books, those are all great. They've already been done, you know?     And then, you know, while he was coaxing me and saying, Well, no, we have this book series called “The Little Book of“ Series, which like the Little Book of Common Sense investing is written by John Bogle. And I'm like, kidding, right? I get to write a book in series that that goes in. And actually the bigger one for me was actually The Little Book valuation is by Aswath Damodaran. Who, I don't know if you guys know him, but in my industry, he's a god.   Aswath Damodaran book bbout this thick on on, it's just got damodaran valuation. And it's got every way of valuing everything ever. And it's the Bible for my industry. Everyone's got a copy everyone's read it cover to cover. It's literally and it I mean, it's dense. He's I think he's a, he's a professor at NYU stern. And just like, super clever guy. So he wrote the little book of value valuation. And they're asking me 7 Dollar Millionaire if I want to write one of those. So I thought I've got to think about it. So just like so thinking about it. And I was like, still didn't want to write a follow up on investing. Now, I did literally woke up one morning, I was like, the little book of Zen Money. And just that the title just runs so nice. I was like, Yeah, okay, what, what can I do with that, and I was like, then the subtitle came to my head was like, okay, a simple path to financial peace of mind.   Okay. And literally, I'm writing the thing, first word to last word and like, not how you should write, you should break it up into bits. And Right, right, like the middle first, and then the end. And then the beginning. And I'm literally going from the title. And the last word, all right, will be the kind of the end. And just going that direction, because it just makes sense to me all the way through.   Tom: Yeah, it's there already. just pulling back.   Michael: Yeah, gotta get it onto paper.   7 Dollar Millionaire: I stay away from the other analogy. But the other analogy is chipping blocks off the stone, right to make a sculpture. That's what I'm doing with this one. It's there. It's already there. I've just got to find it. enough fun. Yeah, I wake up every morning and get at it part from today, when it's fun to talk to you guys instead.   Tom: Yeah, I mean, one of the takeaways also for these conversations is like, you know, this 80-20 principle where, you know, you get 80% of your value from 20% of the work and that last 20%, like, that's where it gets, like overly complicated moving targets, you know, anxiety, all that stuff, but just getting up and getting that initial blob of paint? I mean, I feel like I'm probably repeating a lot of the conversation, but it's a really powerful one.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Exactly. I mean, you know, it's it really is that that first move separates you from everyone who's not investing, who's not saving. That's it, right that if you were the stat or last year, it was ended. 2019. Right there, 61% of Americans didn't have $1,000 in an emergency fund.   Just having $1,000, that puts you already in the top 39% of the richest country in the world. That is already that that's the 80 20 rule right there. They're taking their money and opening an investing account, bang, you're probably in the top 10%. Right. And taking those actions is what moves you along these things all the time. That's why is is so important.   Yeah. It's the problem, as you said is, someone tells you, you should invest. Oh, and you should invest in this. So what you know, that's just way too complex. It should just be you should save, you should invest, and probably, you know, VTI just go there. He can be a while before you find anything else. So you can overcomplicate it later when you're ready to overcomplicate it, but to start with just go there.   Michael: Love it.   Tom: Love it. And VTi is the vanguard index fund. That's just kind of just blankets. The economy beautiful. Yeah, big fan.   7 Dollar Millionaire: It's, it's the it's the biggest economy in the world. It's the top 500 companies in the biggest economy in the world. You know, when we if you live off grid, you're not involved in the global economy. Fine, right. But that's like naught point naught naught 1% of us that's discussing this properly off grid. The rest of us are buying stuff to live our off grid life anyway, we're in the economy. That's that the most natural hedge just by that.   Michael: And the folks that do live off grid probably aren't gonna be listening to this podcast on their iPhone, in the middle of nowhere wherever they live off grid, so I don't think we have to worry about them.   7 Dollar Millionaire: They probably are.   Michael: Living off grid with faster Wi Fi than any of us.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Exactly.   Michael: Awesome. Well, $7 millionaire Always a pleasure to have you on thank you again for hanging out with us and bestowing some wisdom. And like I mentioned, and I mentioned very much looking forward to the book when it comes out. I know I'll be getting it. We will both be getting it I'm sure.   7 Dollar Millionaire: Excellent. Well, thank you very much. It really it's always a pleasure. Really good fun. Thanks, guys.   Michael: Awesome. Take care. I'll talk to you soon.   Alright, everybody, that was our episode a big big, big thank you to 7 Dollar Millionaire always such a pleasure chatting with him. Tom, I know you and I get so much value out of our talks with him and after all of our conversations, we have going making some changes to our own personal finance realm. So very excited to do that yet again. If you'd like the episode, please feel free to leave us a rating or review wherever it is just in your podcast. If you're checking this out on YouTube feel, feel free to hit that like and subscribe button. And as always, we look forward to seeing on the next one. Happy investing.   Tom: Happy investing.

A pretensa reforma política com as regras para as eleições de 2022 tem merecido toda a atenção do Congresso Nacional, até porque o conjunto de parlamentares é o maior interessado no assunto. Todas as articulações vão no sentido de garantir a votação da matéria até outubro, de modo que alterações como a retomada das coligações em eleições proporcionais possam ser incorporadas no processo do ano que vem. Os cronistas repercutem ainda a discussão em torno das mudanças no Imposto de Renda e o contexto da retomada do Afeganistão pelo Talibã. De segunda a quinta, sempre na faixa das 21h, o #JCInforma​​ é o seu ponto de encontro com os cronistas do JC e as principais manchetes do dia. Neste espaço, os destaques dão o tom da conversa comandada pelo cronista Pedro Araujo, editor de Política no Recife, com a participação, em rodízio diário, de Claudio Porto e Adriano Garcia, ambos editores de Política em São Paulo, Arthur Luiz, editor no Rio de Janeiro, e Ulisses Santos, editor no Rio Grande do Sul.

O Ibovespa fechou em alta de 0,9% no dia de ontem, puxado pelos expressivos ganhos de Petrobras (PETR3; PETR4), que avançou 1,82% e de Vale (VALE3), que teve alta de 3,51%. Com mais um dia de euforia sobre os papéis ligados a commodities, a Bolsa por aqui acabou se descolando do ambiente de forte queda das bolsas nos Estados Unidos, e o dólar encerrou o dia em queda, a R$ 5,22.

Em um discurso de quase sete minutos na abertura da cúpula do clima, o presidente Jair Bolsonaro procurou desenhar um cenário perfeito da proteção ambiental no Brasil. Como era esperado, exaltou a posição “agroambiental” do Brasil, disse que o País é um dos que menos contribuiram para as emissões de gases de efeito estufa e pediu recursos internacionais para avançar em programas que combatam as mudanças climáticas. E ainda: as previsões de produção de vacinas contra a covid no Brasil. Ouça essas e outras notícias desta quinta-feira, 22, no “Eldorado Expresso”. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

chicken [ˈtʃɪkɪn]n. 鸡肉；小鸡短语：fried chicken 炸鸡 chicken soup 鸡汤例：The chicken was only half cooked. 鸡肉只是半熟。拓展：chickenpox n. 水痘 chick n. 小鸡 kitchen n.厨房attend [əˈtend]vt. 出席；上（学、课等）；照料，料理；陪伴短语：attend a meeting 出席会议 attend school 上学例：I have some affairs to attend to. 我有一些事情要料理。拓展：attendance n. 出席，到场 attendant adj. 伴随的，陪伴的 n. 服务员 （flight attendant 空乘） rain [reɪn]n./v. 雨；下雨例：There will be rain tomorrow. = It's going to rain tomorrow. 明天将会下雨。 It never rains but it pours. 祸不单行。拓展：raincoat 雨衣 rainbow 彩虹 rainy adj. 下雨的number [ˈnʌmbər]n./v. 数字，号码；计数短语：the number of …的数量 a number of 若干；许多例：The number of students is affected by a number of reasons. 学生的数量受很多原因的影响。拓展：number 指可数名词的数量 amount 指不可数名词的数量that [ðæt]det/pron/conj./adv. 那，那个例：I was angry at that time. 在那时我很生气。 That's all/it. 就那么多，我说完了。拓展：this [ðɪs] 这，这个例：- Hi, is that Tom speaking? （打电话）你好，你是Tom吗？ - No, this is Paul. 不，我是Paul.今日复习chicken n. 鸡肉；小鸡attend vt. 出席；上（学、课等）；照料；陪伴rain n./v. 雨；下雨number n./v. 数字，号码；计数that det/pron/conj./adv. 那，那个翻译句子很多学生没有上那节课。

In today's podcast we're going to explore the key elements of cyber security that you just can't ignore. And for that topic, we've got a guest I'm really excited about: Maribel Lopez. She is a founder and Principal Analyst at Lopez Research focused on digital transformation. In this podcast, we aim to dig into important aspects of cyber security, which can often be highly complex and intimidating and break them down to make them more understandable. We aim to avoid jargon and instead use plain language for thought provoking discussions. Every two weeks, a new podcast will air. We invite you to reach out to us with your questions and ideas for future podcast topics. I'd like to introduce my cohost, Camille Morhardt, Technical Assistant, and Chief of Staff at Intel's Product Assurance and Security Division. She's a co-director of Intel's Compute Lifecycle Assurance, an industry initiative to increase supply chain transparency. Camille's conducted hundreds of interviews with leaders in technology and engineering, including many in the C suite of the Fortune 500. Camille, welcome today.   Camille: Hello, Tom, how are you doing?   Tom: I am doing well. So for those of the audience here, our first segment in each podcast is called Security Matters, where we discuss items that have caught our eye or peaked our interest in some way. So Camille in our very first podcast, what's on your mind for today's Security Matters segment.   Camille: What I'm interested in is really what is a security mindset and is it something that can be developed? So just to explain that a little bit, I'm thinking, I hear terms like, “Hey, this company has security in the DNA of its organization.” Um, and then I hear, “and that company really treats security, like a check the box exercise.” So what I'm wondering is if a company hasn't organically developed this sense of security in the DNA, is it possible for them to get there?   Tom: Interesting. So what do you mean by “security in the DNA?” I think that seems like a, one of those buzz terms that might mean something different to whoever you talk to?   Camille: Yeah. To me “security in the DNA” means that there's no question in anybody's mind within the organization or anybody who encounters the organization that security is always at the forefront of anything anybody's doing. And it's always something that is held in high regard. So it's never something to be dismissed. So for example, like I can tell Intel, uh, to choose a slightly different topic: safety. There's never a question. Safety is always top of mind for everybody to the point where it borders on the ridiculous, right? You can walk up a stairwell at Intel and it says “Are your hands free? Be sure you can grab the railing,” you know, “get a cup holder for yourself.” Or even “it's summer time, but sure you've got sunscreen on. It overflows to beyond what's even reasonable, right? There's no question that matters.   Tom: No, I laugh. Because I've seen those signs. So it is absolutely built into the culture.   Camille: And I think beyond that, there's no question that say any executive you might happen to find in the stairwell is also following that behavior.   Tom: That’s right.   Camille: So it's not something that people preach and then it only grassroots; it's really embedded top to bottom in an organization. And anybody new who comes in, you know, quickly realizes that it's not a joke.   Tom: Right. And I think that's true on a safety sense, but we started off with security. So what would that look like? If security were to the same extent that safety was built into the way everybody thinks, what would that look like?   Camille: I'm not sure that you can guarantee security in the same way that you can guarantee safety. So in other words, you have a controlled environment in many safety situations. Let's say not probably if you're driving down the road or something, but if you're operating a manufacturing facility, you've got a pretty controlled environment. You can make sure that people are never walking where a robotic arm is swinging or something like that, right? When you talk about security, particularly in the compute space, you're by definition, you're releasing that product out into the ethers and then one step worse, you're connecting it to the internet. And if you're not doing that, you're probably not leading on the sophisticated end of things anyway, right? So if you want to be, you know, internet of things, or even just generally operational these days, you're connected to the internet to some degree. Well, how do you guarantee that? Because there's no perimeter security, right? You can't lock the door and everything's safe. You are accessing the outside world. So how did you go and do that?   Tom: It's a bit, not almost, non-deterministic like it's a never ending and journey with regards to security in that sense, like how paranoid do you need to be? What are the threats that you are concerned about? And it seems like that list would be at least always evolving, if not, never ending.   Camille: So how, how do you get your organization to put security first if it's not doing it already?   Tom: Well, I think, you know, you're raising a good question. There's no single answer for sure, but I think first and foremost, people have to realize security is everybody's business. It's not the security team's job to keep the product safe. It's everybody's job. It starts from initial product inception all the way through manufacturing and even out into the customer real world. And then the other element I think is, yeah, maybe, you know, the stick approach, you know, the keratin stick, the stick approach is just, dollarize what happens when you're not secure and what happens to your brand reputation and what happens to, you know, the costs that you incur as a company they're significant. Camille: I like it. So submit your, your budget of “I'm going to need this much money because we've had a breach.”   Tom: Yeah.   Camille: As opposed to…   Tom: Yeah, write the headline the day after the breach, and that might motivate people. This is a good topic. We should talk about security and what people should be thinking about and maybe what isn't so obvious. I think that's the podcast for today. Let's, let's go with that as a podcast.   Camille: Sounds good. Tom: In today's podcast we're going to explore the key elements of cyber security that you just can't ignore. And for that topic, we've got a guest I'm really excited about: Maribel Lopez. She is a founder and Principal Analyst at Lopez Research focused on digital transformation. Maribel Lopez founded the Emerging Technology Research Council, which is a community of business and technical leaders in Fortune 1000 companies focused on driving innovation and business value with mobile and other emerging technologies. So welcome Maribel.   Maribel: Thanks, Tom, excited to be here.   Tom: Could you tell us more about this research council?   Maribel: The research council is a group of technology leaders. They come together to talk about best practices and deploying technology. Some of it's emerging tech, but some of it's tech we've talked about a long time that just continues to change.   Tom: That's interesting. So, you know, in today's topic, I mentioned earlier, we wanted to talk about the items about security that people just can't ignore. I wonder if you could talk a bit about the overall security landscape.   Maribel: I think one of the things that's really interesting about security is that I look at it as a layer cake. There are multiple layers of security that you need in an organization. And sadly, there's no one-size-fits-all. You have to basically block and tackle every single layer of that. And we hear that from the customer base. They're continually asking us, “Hey, do I need to deploy this? Should I be looking at that? There are all these new tools. I don't know which ones I should really be diving into. What do you think.”   Tom: Can you say more about how customers view just standard security?   Maribel: I think they want what everybody wants. They want a silver bullet. They want to just throw in one tool, it'd be one and done maybe two and done. But if you look at the average corporation, there's somewhere between 40 and 80 security tools. There's definitely a sense of fatigue, particularly as we continue to get more and more new threats that seem to have an never ending set of tools. It's like how many security widgets is enough already?   Tom: Uh-huh. No, I, I definitely myself, in talking to customers, run into all the time, the, just the complexity of how one security tool impacts and influences another security tool. And just keeping that as you call it, the layer cake upright is a huge challenge.   Camille: Hey Maribel, it’s Camille here. So is it just networks that we need to be concerned about or also in points?   Maribel: Actually, that's a great point, Camille, because you know, the, one of the other real security challenges we've seen--particularly as people have gone to remote work--is this concept of aging PCs devices that don't have a trusted security stacks on them. They could be tablets, they could be PCs, it could be mobile phones. So really the end point has become very wide open and open for attack and compromise.   Camille: Do you have advice for companies now everybody's working from home, how they can boost security in those home environments?   Maribel: Yeah. So the first thing I think we have to figure out is are they using personal hardware or not? Is that hardware compromised? Because let's just say you give somebody a VPN and they're tunneling into your network, but their actual machine is compromised. You've just let somebody into the network inadvertently. So. finding ways that you can test the health of the device, finding ways to manage devices that are personally owned, but in a way that you can separate the corporate data from the personal data, I think is one of the low hanging fruits. And then hopefully getting to the point where you actually have hardware that you provided to your employees that you know, is safe and secure and that you can manage and having that ability to manage. But I think the other thing we have to think about as patching in general, Just making sure that everybody's machines are passionate up to date. And then finally, I'd say we forgot about security training. A lot of people were sent home very quickly and they just didn't have that set of best practices of knowing not to click on links or other things. Particularly a lot of people are getting caught in the early days with the concept of, you know, click on this link to hear more about COVID and what it means for you. A lot of machines were compromised that way.   Camille: So there's depth, right? And then there's also breadth, which we may not have considered so much in hardware until recently. True? I don't know, Tom, are you seeing product portfolios starting to address system health after manufacturer, after we ship?   Tom: We have. Actually, what we're seeing is a realization that a device has multiple phases over its existence. It has really the build phase, which there's a lot of focus on the build phase. And then there is a transfer phase when a device moves from its manufacturing location to ultimately to the user of the device; then there's the operate phase; and then finally the retirement phase. And security means something different in each of those phases. And so we're starting to see customers. Paying attention to what kinds of capabilities does the platform you need to be able to support in order to stay safe in these various ranges? Like for example, understanding has the device been tampered with before you provision it and put it on your network? And increasingly we're seeing companies work in this case with Intel to do that. Another area is around IOT. The devices don't have users attached to them. So they sit on a telephone pole or in a factory somewhere; they don't have a human sort of managing them and looking for anomalous behavior. And so IOT is a whole category of use cases that is very much concerned about physical security, because somebody can tamper with the device physically and just making sure that the device is operating the way we would expect it to be. So Maribel, I wonder what kinds of protections are you seeing customers implement on IOT besides the ability to update?   Maribel: Yeah, so the first thing I think we have to actually do very basic things, like change the names, change the passwords. Well, let's just assume you did that. What would you be looking for next? You'd be looking for, you'd be looking for encryption. What's the behavior of that device intrusion detection and make sure that that bias hasn't been compromised and taken over and being used to send traffic that it shouldn't be sending. So those are a few of the things that we've been talking to people about is like go the first mile, but then go the second and the third to make sure that you’re really assessing the behavior of those devices and understand what they should be doing and then understand what they are doing. And if there's a difference between those two, make sure that you're turning on the right kinds of security stacks to make sure that those devices don't get compromised or remediate them if they have.   Camille: What risks should companies be looking at in their supply chains that they might not be tuned into right now?   Maribel: Great point, Camille. I mean, the supply chain is sort of the initial thread factor before it's even at the person. So when we talk to people about the supply chain, it's important that you understand several things. First is like, what are the components within that supply chain? And can we verify that those are actually the right components--that they've been signed by those individuals saying, yes, this is the component. It's the right component. The second one that we need to think about is your suppliers themselves. They could be compromised. And if they have your data, then that compromises you. The third we should be looking at is I know, particularly now--while there might be hardware shortages or where there might be some sensitivity to budgets--we see organizations starting to buy in different channels that they might not have purchased in before. And they in fact might be getting counterfeit hardware. You know, there have been examples, many examples of, for example, networking equipment that people saw that they were buying a specific brand of networking equipment, but it turns out that they were buying a very compelling fake. And imagine that, you know, in the deep part of your network, you have hardware that is not the right product. What could that do if somebody put software that to take over your network, steal all of your data? So you really have to think on a component level. Or if you're purchasing who you're purchasing from and being able to validate that that whole system is the whole system that you bought or validating specific components of it. So there's a lot in the supply chain that I think we have to think about that we didn't necessarily consider before.   Tom: So I, I wonder if maybe we transition just a little bit here and look now into the future over the next several years. I wonder if you could talk, maybe a little bit about some of the major shifts you expect to see over the next year or two.   Maribel: Well, I think the big shift that we've been talking about for a while now, but has not really permeated into organizations is around this concept of “zero trust.” And so this is where you're doing a user behavior analytics or in the user could be a person or it could be devices, but think about creating a profile of what your known behavior is and then being able to say--using machine learning and deep learning--saying that behavior we're seeing now, it doesn't look like normal behavior for that user, for that entity. What should I do now? Well, usually you want to quarantine that person or thing, and then do some security checks to see if she'll allow them back into the network. That concept of what normal user behavior is, is a bit topsy-turvy in a world where people are working remotely or even worse they're going back and forth between work and home, some other place. So when that happens, predicting what “normal behavior” looks like can be difficult, but that zero trust concept seems to be where we're going right now.   Camille: What are some of the issues that IT departments might be facing right now, as people are struggling to figure out how to get things set up in a kind of unusual environment quickly?   Maribel: So they've had a couple of challenges. One is obviously figuring out how to support remote work, you know, how do we get devices into hands? How do we VPN clients scale? Do we want to do things like virtual desktop so that we can have better security? How do we think about that whole portfolio then? Then I think we're going into a secondary layer of when we're starting to think about zero trust or when we're starting to think about connecting more devices, how do we construct roles? How do we construct policies around those roles? What looks like normal behavior? And then I think we're also looking at, I need intelligent hardware that has intelligent software so I'm not drowning in alerts. You can see a world where people are drowning in alerts continually, particularly with more tiny devices, sending lots of information. So we're now being tasked with finding solutions that will be more predictive and prescriptive on behalf of us and say, “Hey, I think there's a problem that might be happening here. And here's what you should go look at to see if there's an actual problem.” So we talk about automation, but we're not necessarily automating the human. What we're trying to automate is getting the right information to individuals so that they can act accordingly.   Tom: Yeah, I think there's also the other element on top of that, which is the experience from the user standpoint has to still be good because if it isn't good, we've known for years and years now that employees will go around the IT solution and effectively sort of create their own platform, their own set of how they get things done maybe as like a shadow IT problem.   Maribel: Yeah, we're seeing shadow IT. Shadow IT is real. And what I think it really gets to is that user experience part that you talked about. So now I think the imperative for business leaders is to say, “Hey, we know that people are going to be using a set of their own solutions. Let's make sure we know what they're using. Let's make sure that we protect the data that shouldn't be in. Say some. Third party documents, storage that shouldn't be in some third party, email client.” Really, it's also one of the things that I think is so important about the postcode world work. We have an understanding and a need now to say, “we have to support multiple platforms. How do we do that in a secure way?” Because we also have the data imperative where we have to make sure that we've secured the data because. There are penalties around that there's regulation around that. And we have to be able to marry the user experience and the regulation and the security   Tom: To me, this seems like we're just at the beginning of a fairly significant transition when you think about security forced into it in the near term and COVID, but we'll likely in my opinion, at least continue on behind that.   Tom: Let's, let's try to have some fun now and talk a little bit about what do you think are some of the things that you just cannot wait to get away from now in this current COVID-19 scenario? And then I'm going to follow it up--I'll just tell you right now--I'm going to follow it up by what are the things that you hope to preserve that were maybe some surprises from having to work from home or all the other things that we're doing with COVID?   Maribel: I think we need to have a more balanced meeting where it's some video audio, and sometimes it just might be some messaging cause you don't need to see anybody that day (laughs). So that’s one. You know, on the security side, one of the things. I don't think we'll get away from that we're sort of forced into, but maybe it was a good force. And that's the concept of, he's got to check the settings on everything. So things like we saw in the video conferencing area, where we had, you know, video bombing, so to speak, where people were coming in and where it's supposed to be coming in. There's a lot more sensitivity now of making sure that you have your settings. Right. And then when things update, your settings are still there. So things don't turn on automatically or you've put in the right security so that people can stay out of your meetings. Things of that nature, I think are good. Tom: That's a good list. I have a couple of things, myself. One thing I can't wait to be done with at some point is the fact that every time I dial into either a video meeting or now audio meeting or whatever, my computer cannot remember what audio and video device, it thinks it's talking to, it just drives me crazy. Like, why can't we solve this problem? It seems like such a solvable problem. And then the thing that I really, really love about this time is I don't have to drive to work. I love that video for me is, yeah, it's a substitute for actual face to face contact, but I have a hellacious commute and I love the fact that I don't have to do it. So Camille, you have anything?   Camille: I think we're going to see more and more communications or interaction, style apps emerging--both for fun. Um, and also education and also work related. Everybody's got this issue with video. So what kinds of interesting things are we going to see emerge? So I'm very much looking forward to that. And I'm also concerned as Maribel said that we are able to make sure we have, we maintain privacy and appropriate security and confidentiality with those new emerging apps.   Tom: The one thing's for sure is that we won't be going back to the way it was pre. COVID-19 there's definitely going to be changes. So with that, I think we can draw this podcast to a close I'd like to thank Maribel for joining us. Your insight today was great. I think it gave us a perspective on customers and, and in particular, some of the things that people aren't necessarily thinking of when they think about security. So Maribel, thank you again for joining us. Maribel: Thank you. Tom: We invite people to please subscribe to our podcast. It is going to be published on an every two-week basis. So we'll have topics that are relevant for cyber security coming to you every two weeks, a subscribe, wherever you get your podcasts, and we will see you next time.

COVID zum sung ah ki lawh loh na ding // Health talk.Kawikawi + Khual zin mi // chin gospel songs.

O Ibovespa fechou em queda de 1,62% nesta quinta-feira (13) a 100.460 pontos pressionado principalmente por blue chips como Petrobras e Vale em dia de desvalorização das commodities no mercado internacional. O dólar comercial caiu 1,56% a R$ 5,36. As taxas de juros futuro apresentaram nova elevação no longo prazo, com o principal destaque sendo as preocupações em relação à agenda fiscal, mesmo com declaração do Presidente Jair Bolsonaro de que teria compromisso com o teto de gastos. A aversão ao risco fez com que a inclinação da curva retornasse a níveis de maio. DI jan/21 fechou em 1,89%; DI jan/23 encerrou em 3,96%; DI jan/25 subiu para 5,77%; e DI jan/27 foi para 6,79%.

In this episode Tom and Emil go head to head to debate which investing strategy is superior, local or remote investing.    --- Transcript   Michael: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of their moat real estate investor. I'm Michael album. And today I'm joined by my usual hosts,   Tom: Tom Schneider   Emil: And Emil, The Real Deal, Shour.   Michael: Ooh, I love that self-proclaimed nickname. Love it. And today we're going to be doing another show down. We've got a lot of feedback from our listeners that showed on episodes were well received. So today we are going to be debating the pros and cons of remote investing versus local investing dunked on done. Well, guys, let's jump into it.   Emil: That was actually a nickname that someone I went to college with gave me.   Michael: Okay. So it wasn't self-proclaimed.   Tom: Emil, The Real Deal.   Emil: We were in the same frat and we had like boxing night and…   Michael: that's so good.   Emil: He introduced me as Emil, The Real Deal!   Michael: I would never go on a boxing match with anybody that had that intense of a nickname.   Emil: Those people went down. Went down hard.   Michael: Okay. So for any of our new listeners out there, my name is Michael Albaum and I'm the head coach with the Roofstock Academy, Roofstock's education arm, and Emil, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and who you are?   Emil: Yes. My name is Emil Shour. I work on the marketing team here at Roofstock, which if anyone's not familiar, it's a marketplace where investors come to buy and sell single family rental homes. And so I work on the marketing team. I actually invested through Roofstock's marketplace before I was employed here. And now I have the joy of getting to spread the word.   Michael: So you're drinking the Koolaid.   Emil: That's right.   Tom: An evangelist!   Michael: That's right. And Tom, who are you my friend?   Tom: That is a deep question.   Michael: Start at birth!   Tom: Start at birth. So I am an investor. I'm a California broker. I work here at Roofstock on the investor education team. I initially worked at one of the very first publicly traded REITs, doing single family rental, kind of in the wild West of 2009. And then our CEO went and was a co founder and starting Roofstock. So I jumped over and joined him at Roofstock on the product side and the operations. And now, as I mentioned on the investor education side.   Michael: Awesome. Love it.   Tom: Before we get into the meat of the episode, a quick announcement as usual, this episode was brought to you by Roofstock Academy. Roofstock Academy is Roofstock's education program to get you to the next level. We include over $2,500 worth of marketplace credits on demand lectures, one-on-one coaching group coaching, all kinds of benefits. And we have this new benefit that we put together that Michael is leading it's our book club.   Michael: Within the Roofstock Academy, we actually do a monthly book club. We get together and read the same book over the course of the month that has some takeaway, some motif, some applicable things to real estate investing. And we get together at the end of the month and we have a chat about it. And cause now it's COVID, we're doing that all virtually, but hope to be able to do that in person at some point down the road. And this upcoming months book club book is Michael Uber's, one rental at a time. And as an added bonus for this month book club, we're actually going to have Michael Zuber on that call with us as kind of a fireside chat. And as we're going to be discussing his books, we get to hear it from the source himself about some of the reasons he wrote the book and some of the takeaways from the book as well. So now is the opportune time to join the Roofstock Academy roofstockacademy.com. So you can join us for that monthly book club and take advantage of all of the other advantages the Roofstock Academy has to offer as well.   Emil: For people who aren't familiar with Michael Zuber, he's been on the podcast twice. Good friend of the podcast episode 11 was the first one we had with him, the power of four rental properties and how it can change your life. And most recently, I think we, we dropped an episode with him this past week called how Michael Zuber Quit His Job On a Whim After Achieving Financial Independence. So if you're not familiar with who he is, go back and listen to those episodes. He's a super, super smart guy he's been investing for. I think 20 plus years. Now he knows a lot and has a really, really awesome message for other investors.   Michael: So today for our shutter and episode, we're going to be taking two sides of this argument and splitting it up a meal. Why don't we give you remote? We'll give you a remote and Tom, you're going to have to defend local investing.   Tom: Yeah. A classic episode, a classic discussion for the remote real estate. We're going to, you know, try not to be too biased…   Michael: But it is called The Remote Real Estate Investor,   Tom: But it'll be fun. It'll be fun. I don't know. Yeah. It's fun going to the other side of the table. So..   Michael: I think it's important to address and acknowledge both sides of any topic of any discussion because it's two sides to every coin and there is no one size fits all approach, even though remote real estate investing is far superior, but we're going to get to that in the episode. So a meal, would you like to go first or second   Emil: I'm game for either Michael?   Michael: Okay.   Emil: You're the moderator.   Tom: Go first Emil. That way I'm giving you a heads up. I'm handicapping you alright,   Michael: Emil, the floor is yours.   Emil: All right. So I have three points I want to hit here. That Tom is going to have a very hard time rebutting. So the first one is that with remote investing, you buy where it makes sense. So if you're a local investor, you're looking around at your local market, you're geographically constrained to just the deals around you. So if you live in Los Angeles or the Bay area, like we do, prices have gone out of control. Prices have gone up a lot and rent has not been able to keep up with that. So in certain markets, it's very hard to find cash flowing properties, unless you have a lot of money, put a lot of money down. It's very, very hard to make those work. There's still good markets. It's just harder to make the cash flow work. So when you're a remote investor, you buy where it makes sense.   You look at different markets, you look at where deals are, where the fundamentals are good and you invest there. You're not geographically constrained to only where you live. You go to where the deal is. Makes sense. The second point I want to touch on is you get to build a team instead of doing everything yourself. I know personally, if I was investing locally, I would want to do a lot of things myself, instead of relying on other people, finding the right team. And I think that's an advantage in building a team because these people are professionals. I'm not, I'm not a professional property manager or inspector any of these things, but being the person I am and liking control, I feel like I would try to get my hand into too many of those things. Whereas when you're remote again, you have to rely on the fuel.   You have to build a team. And so I think that's one of the advantages of going remote is you're required to build that team of professionals. The last one I want to touch on before I get on the floor is I think with remote investing, it's a lot less emotional and more about the numbers. I think when you go and view properties all the time in person, it's hard to ignore some of the blemishes that you bring to the property, right? You have some bias. You're like, Oh, would I live here? And with rental properties, especially for cashflow, that's not what matters. It's do the numbers make sense in a market that I like. And is this an area that I'm comfortable with? The risk it's not about is this somewhere I could see myself living. And I think if you're doing the local investing, you bring a lot of that emotion in looking at a lot of the properties you look at.   Michael: Wow. Tom, come back from those man.   Tom: I like it. I'm so confident. I'm going to slow roll a little bit. I'm actually just going to compliment a couple of your points before I stepped back and do the fade away three while kicking my leg out for you to run into it for me to get an extra free throw. So yeah.   Emil: Okay. James harden.   Tom: Okay. So to honor my comment there, I love the point about how it allows you to not kind of get in your own head and just be super data-driven about it, but okay. Onto the good stuff, I'm a good stuff. So investing local is definitely the way that you want to do it. So I think the first point that I'm going to make, which could be the most relevant is you're never going to know a market better than your own market. And me personally, I've been studying the market since I was about eight years old. I'd go to Safeway, I'd get the homes and land magazine. And I would just study comps. And I had this long trend of analysis. I know the different markets, different property types, how they're trending. Heck I even know the agents, right? The Kerses family out here, great agents. So you're going to know a market a lot better just from, you know, kind of hounding your local Zillow or Redfin or whatever. Basically the adult version of the homes and land magazine from the Safeway. All right. The next point is, man, what value is it to be able to touch and feel the house, you know, to go up to the house and touch the walls and kind of like smell it. You can't do that remotely. And one of the reasons people like investing in real estate is because it's a tangible asset. It's, it's something, you know, you're not buying some future of gasoline because the price of crude is low.   You know, it's an actual asset that some people actually use using by doing it remotely. You're kind of getting away from that. You're getting away from that touchy, feely wonderfulness of buying a house that you can actually see and walk into. And you know, you get out of the ethereal, if I steal a word from Michael here, it's a nice to the realleal, so, you know, you're being there. So that's number two is the tangibility of it, of actually being there, getting to go see it. It's pretty awesome. And lastly is you're not going to get taken advantage of, you know, doing things over the phone. You're going to have these quick talking sharks, selling you snake oil and all kinds of trouble. So I like to shake somebody's hand or I guess nowadays is you do an elbow bump of, you know, getting, if I'm going to do business with somebody, I'm going to want to get to know them.   I'm going to want to look them in the eye and touch elbows or whatever we do now with COVID and you can't do that in zoom. It's just super awkward. So there you go. That's why you want to invest locally.   Michael: So, Tom, what would you have to say to some of the meals points that he brought up?   Tom: All right. Let's do it so well, I, I quite agree with a lot of appeals points. I totally agree. I mean, I don't want to waste my, you know, momentum for when we switched sides of the argument, but there is a lot of limitations on only looking into your own area, but you know, just when we say local, that doesn't mean you have to do everything, you know, within five miles of your house, roll it out a little bit further, you know, go 30 miles go a couple hours. So we were talking before the episode where we were talking about our experience with local investing and I have done some stuff working for fun, not with my own money, doing local investing, but Michael has invested locally. I would consider, you know, within that three hour range that kind of counts as local. So to address that point about, you know, not being specific things in your area, you know, rollout the distance, the radius, spread it out a little bit further. You can still do things locally. You know, if you're uncomfortable going 2000 miles away go 200 miles away like within striking distance. So that would be my point number one.   The point number two, about being comfortable about using other folks is, you know, it's a muscle and if you're uncomfortable, you know, going a hundred percent building a team, that's okay. Just kind of pick points and spots and build that muscle of getting trust in getting good at letting go of things. And honestly, that's a big problem. I know for a lot of people, especially investors who are pretty generally pretty type a kind of go getters is to consciously make an effort of letting go of certain aspects of the business. So you can focus on where you have higher ROI.   Michael: I've got a question for you, both that you both kind of touched on Amelia, you mentioned that if you're going to invest remotely, that you can't go see the property and that that's difficult to do. And Tom, you mentioned, you know, being local, you're able to go touch and feel and see the property, but couldn't someone who's investing remotely still go touch and feel, see, and smell and taste. I think you included in there, the property,   Tom: If you're good, you will.   Emil: That's right. Always want to lick the walls before you sign those docs.   Michael: Check the lead based paint disclosure before licking the walls.   Emil: Correct. Actually, I think the right thing to do is to lick it, to make sure that there isn't lead.   Michael: That's right.   Tom: It's your tongue turns blue then…   Emil: Trust the verify.   Tom: No, you're totally right, Michael. I mean I've for some of the house that I've bought, I've seen them, but for most of them might have nod and what the ticket is, is having an inspector because honestly, if I go to the house and my ability to assess, you know, issues is not going to be better than an inspector who like does this professionally. So, you know, having the idea that, Oh, me going out there, I'm going to be able to do a better job than some inspector is a little bit of a stretch. So, you know, having confidence in the credentials and you know, where these inspectors are coming from, and then also looking at their homework. So like when an inspector goes and does an inspection on a house, they're filling out a super thorough report on what was identified. And that is including pictures and descriptions and as well as adding any followup items that are on there. So I'm not really sure where I'm arguing on this. I got, I got going, but you know, to the point, like I think it's, yo u know, going to see the property before buying it, you could totally do that. Even if it is remote, you know, there's no reason why you couldn't do it. And it makes you get comfortable to be able to get in the game. You know, that's an expense that you can use as a writeup. I'm not a tax professional, but for that in there,   Emil: Thank you, Tom, for further arguing my remote point but no, I think you're right. I think you can, like, let's say you put an offer on a property you're in escrow. You can go visit that property, put some eyes on it, make sure everything looks good. Yes. You know, I rely on pictures and video and things like that to like before the offer process. But I actually want to make that part of how I operate going forward. Obviously with COVID, it makes it a lot tougher, but the markets I invest in, I want to be visiting those more regularly. I haven't at all, but I want to be. And I think it makes a lot of sense if that makes you more comfortable go visit the property before you finish escrow.   Tom: Yeah. I think I personally kind of like Seesawed a little bit on like, you know, needing to be in the market where kind of when I was in it, I think it was really important to go and check it out, to go in the other way of seeing like, nah, you don't need to see it at all. I think it's been to find a happy balance. Like if you buy a property and it hits those check boxes that you're looking for with regards to population and schools and other kind of local dynamic economy, like great. I think it's some people need to be comfortable by taking a look at the market. Great. Go be comfortable and do that. Just know that, you know, there isn't necessarily a one size fits all answer.   Emil: Yep. And one last thing you mentioned being local, you know, your market way better than being a remote investor. I think that's true. I think that that'll always be the case you live there, you just, you know, what's happening. One thing I really trying to do though in the markets that I invest in is like get more ingrained in local news outside of just real estate. So I'll set up Google alerts and get the top things happening in that city to just like better understand what's going on. And I think this is where talking to your property manager regularly, again, visiting those markets regularly doing drive-through of different neighborhoods. It's just going to get you better and better at these different markets.   Michael: That's a really great point Emil. I'm going to piggyback off what Tom said. I always talk in the Academy with members about if going to the market is what's stopping you from investing then by all means go, but you'll have to kind of face the reality of everybody has personal biases and you're not going to be able to unsee undue, unexperienced, the things that you see and do and feel, and experience in that market for better or for worse. And so the ideal scenario is you pick a market that has good numbers, has good metrics and you go see the property and you love the property and you love the market, but that's not always the case. Just like you said Emil is that it doesn't necessarily matter how it makes you feel because you might not be living there. If the numbers make sense and the facts are there to support the market, it could still be a great investment independent of the fact of whether or not you enjoy it. And so if you go somewhere and think, wow, I would never live here. I don't want to invest here. Now we're mixing emotion into the decision making process, which can really be dangerous. And so if we can go with the guys of understanding that it doesn't really matter how I feel, if I feel great, that's kind of a cherry on top, but I should still be willing to invest. Even if it doesn't make me feel good. That's something to think about.   Tom: That's a great point. I mean, so much of this is an introspective exercise where it's like, okay, what do I need to do to know that, you know, I feel good about investing in this area. And I think it's a great point, Michael, that it comes to a point where you need to be a little bit just focused on the numbers. But if you know that you're going to need to kind of touch it and take a look just at the market in general, then there's no reason that you can't do that. And I like the happy balance of, you know, if there's a market, you know, going to take a look at the market and not necessarily, if there is a property to look at great, go look at a property, but you don't necessarily have to look at the one that you are investing in, but you have like a general kind of taste of the area. If that's something that's important to you, there's no reason why you can't do that. But to Michael's point, like at the end of the day, the numbers are really what carry the day trust in the process.   Emil: All of us kind of agree that the numbers, aren't the only thing that drive us, right? If it's like awesome cabaret cash on cash, but it's in a really rough neighborhood where we don't see that neighborhood turning around or whatever it is. I don't think any of us would invest there just because the numbers on paper look really good. There's a lot of other factors that we also take into account as well.   Michael: Yup, absolutely. Alright. This was really great. And I want you guys to flip flop, Tom, why is remote investing far superior than local investing in meal? You've got to defend because you got to go first, last time. So now Tom's on the offensive. Fight!   Tom: Emil, welcome to 2020. The world is your oyster. Get out of your little hole, get your head out of the sand, you Flamingo is that the animal does the…   Michael: Ostrich.   Tom: You're, you're being an ostrich. And you know, there's been some advents in technology that has allowed us to invest remotely. One of them is cloud computing that allows for you to have access to incredible amounts of data outside of your backyard. So cloud computing, that's one, the other is, uh, mobile phones. Uh, there's all kinds of cool technology that didn't exist before that Roofstock leverages and other, you know, potentially brokerages. Um, have you guys seen, have you heard of the 3d walkthrough? Right? So inside maps, Matterport, very cool companies that allow you to basically walk through the house as if you are there. Not only are you being more psychogenic, you're just working smarter, not harder. So you're able to check these houses out at a really in depth level without needing to go there. You're saving gas mileage. Think of, you know, you're being green, okay. Cloud computing, tons of data, cheap data on markets and evaluating other markets. Number two, mobile applications, mobile devices. And with that is the ability to have these really cool 3D walkthroughs to have a proliferation of inspections available. I know at Roofstock we use some cool mobile phones in using for our inspection capture leading to my third point, this ecosystem, right, that has developed around companies. So one such as Roofstock that basically does all the work ahead of time. All the benefits you would get from local investing in that, you know, being able to find these local partners, you can do really easily through platforms like Roofstock, which will connect you to all the partners that you need.   Be it insurance, be it in lenders. Now I'm not saying you can't use that same grit that you would be using locally, remotely. You should still apply that and apply it in a very diligent way, but all the drawbacks of doing it remotely that used to exist no longer exist, just because of the way the technology has advanced the way the cool companies like Roofstock has advanced. And the proof is in the pudding. I know just off the top of my head, I think there's been, you know, over over $10 million of transaction within the Roofstock Academy community, over $2 billion worth of transactions on the Roofstock community. So the proof is in the pudding. It's, you know, if you're not doing it right now, Emil, remotely investing you're behind. So, so get on the train.   Michael: Tom, what do you have to say about the interwebs, the online, the www online's making remote real estate investing easier?   Tom: Uh, you mean the connected tubes?   Michael: Yeah,   Tom: It honestly it shrinks the world. It's fantastic. And the big value points I think in there is just access to data. So being a data driven investor, I want to know what are some reputable sources for evaluating the local schools. I want to do a walk around on that block. Oh, wait a minute. I, can I go to Google maps and do a little walk around? That's fantastic. And honestly, again, you get a pretty good taste of, of being able to do it that way and getting the curb appeal and all of that good stuff. So the internet, I mean, it, it honestly would not be possible without it, but just as we've, since we've come so far since AOL and 56K modems or whatever, it's like, you know, on my phone, I could do a diligence on a property that honestly, the top private equity or top real estate investment companies could do it, it would cost them thousands and thousands of dollars to do on an individual property that I could do for free, just on my mobile phone while I am walking in my living room, in a local area. So the cost of doing the kind of diligence at an incredibly thorough level has gotten so cheap and so accessible. That there's just no question that remote investing is here and jump on board toot toot. Get on the train toot toot.   Michael: Alright Emil, you need some ice. Are you feeling okay? Are you ready to start swinging back?   Emil: I'm ready. You know what? I think Tom just convinced me to become a remote real estate investor. You opened my eyes. Michael: You didn't know this other world existed.   Emil: I had no idea about this, what podcast are we on?   Michael: Someone get this guy, a mobile phone.   Tom: Yeah get him a mobile device connected to the internet.   Michael: To the interwebs.   Emil: All right. I'm going to try not to rehash too much of what Tom mentioned. Hold on. Let me get my dog to shut up, one second. Zeke!!   Tom: So Mr. Michael Album, I hear you are doing some remote investing to the extreme. I've been following you on the Twitter world and yeah.   Michael: That's… No one should do that. That's a scary thing to hear.   Tom: Yeah. Doing remote in the United States is one thing, doing remote on the, across the Atlantic?   Emil: Portugal! Michael: Going very far East, stopping once I hit Europe, I'm actually currently investing in some properties in Portugal. There is something called the golden visa that I'm looking to take advantage of. And one of the ways to get a golden visa, which is basically permanent resident status, and then ultimately a passport after a five year period is by investment in the country. And so that can take the form of a few different ways. And so one of the options is investing in property. And so I'm looking to actually flip a property right now and then purchase a property for a long term buy and hold to get me access to that golden visa.   Emil: [sings] You go the golden visa, you got the golden visa. It's made up, it's fairy dust that someone sold Michael   Michael: And so you, Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Speaking of buying snake oil.   Tom: Was this specifically for the golden visa.   Michael: It is, it is. So the returns are not anywhere near as attractive as what you can get in the States. And so the fact that you can buy an investment property and have it generate some kind of return is really a cherry on top. The real premise and the real Genesis is to get a golden visa and ultimately a second passport.   Tom: Wow.   Michael: So just being able to travel work, live, receive healthcare in the EU, any of the EU countries essentially for free. And so having the benefits of an, of an EU citizen and potentially be an EU citizen after five years.   Tom: Wow. So you would be a Portuguese and an American citizen. Yes. Very cool. Yup. Nobody knows any Portuguese out there that wouldn't mind tutoring me a little bit. I would love the help because I am pretty useless.   Tom: Portuguese is a difficult language. I went to Brazil for a little bit and Holy moly. I do not. Yeah. It was a…     Michael: It's so foreign and it's so fast.   Tom: Obrigado!   Michael: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's thank you for anybody listening. Nobody got it. Alright. Emil you're ready to punch back?   Emil: Alright. Knowing your market. I think that's a big advantage. If you're local, when things happen, you can go visit. That's another big one. The other three I wanted to mention are I think it's a lot easier to project manager rehabs. A lot of times when you're, you're doing a rehab or any type of any type of rehab from distance, you're trusting a lot of people project managing it. Isn't the easiest. Sometimes property managers will do it for you. It's a service they will provide. Sometimes they don't, but you're relying on pictures to kind of make sure each interval of the rehab process is happening. And a lot of times the little details are harder to see through pictures or anything, right. You want to make sure that it work is done right. And I think when you're local to be able to go and see the work that's being done, it's a huge advantage to make sure the little things weren't skipped or things that show up in picture that look okay, but you actually view it in person.   You know, the paint is splotchy or things like that. You can verify those things in person, much easier to do when you're local. The other one is this kind of ties into knowing your market, but where you live and where you are locally, you, you probably believe in that area. You probably believe in that economy. That's probably why you're there. You have a job, whatever it is when you're local, you probably have a sense that this area is going to do well for years to come. And you're trying to ride that wave of appreciation. Whereas when you're going remote harder to know all those things, you don't live there. You're not living and breathing and in that place and knowing what the local economy's doing. So I think when you're a local, you just have a better sense of is this place on the rise? I think most people live somewhere where you think things are going well. So that's another advantage to local, I would say. The last thing I talked about building a team, when you're remote, you have to build a team. I think when you're local, you build a team too. People will find your deals, property management, all those things. But the advantage of when you're local is you can actually go meet those people face to face, interview them a lot easier than when you're remote and you're just calling people. There's less of that personal connection. And I don't know when you meet people in person, you take them more seriously. They take you a little more seriously, not always, but I think it's actually easier to build a team when you're local. You do it for remote and local. And I think it's just easier to local. And that's it. Tom, go ahead.   Tom: Alright. Last couple of points I'll make on yours. You know, talking about investing in a market that you kind of believe in, you live in something we've learned over the last, I don't know, 30, 30, 40 years of investing is diversification is key. And a lot of people, their biggest investment that they make is going to be the house that they own and live in. And if you're making your biggest investment, obviously in an area that you live in, cause you live in it, why would you, you know, basically just double down on that same area, when you can diversify a little bit and put that money to work in an area that, you know, there might be some correlations with the economy because there generally is, but is subject to other upside and other kind of benefits. So being able to place your chips around. So instead of owning multiple houses in the same area that you live in already, where you have your biggest investment, the benefits of mixing it up and putting it into a different area, there's lots of value to diversifying that play.   Michael: Would you say Tom, that you would peanut butter spread the risk?   Tom: I love peanut butter spread. So my wife has started getting groceries from this place called Thrive Market and they have peanut butter in a spreadable packet. Pretty sweet.   Michael: Different than Justin's?   Tom: I don't know if it's Justin's I don't think it is, but anyways, it's not in a jar. It's like toothpaste packets. It's like toothpaste   Michael: Just on the go packs. Those things are great. Yeah.   Tom: I think I'm kind of violent about it. Cause I like burst a hole, like in the side. So peanut butter spread the risk, right? Just like spreadable peanut butter. You spread it apart. I guess the last kind of general point that isn't necessarily arguing to one way or the other remote or local investing is with all of this. It's not a one size fits all. I think all of us agree that, you know, while there is a little bit of unique requirements for investing remotely, ultimately the different types of returns it gives you access to and the diversification it gives you access to is it's worth that little bit of overhead. And as we mentioned before, then this episode, there's, there's different ways that people can get comfortable in different areas. For some people, they just get it right away and they can jump right in and invest.   And that's awesome. That's great. For some people they want to be a little bit more hands on and go and visit the area, perhaps even talk to property managers and that's okay too. Just kind of know where you sit and know what you need to do to get there either to move forward with an investment or to move on to some other type of investment. So I'd say as a theme in this podcast and real estate investing in general, have a bias for action of getting yourself into a position to either make the investments or to move on. Let's see the last little recurring theme that I think probably talk about every other episode is, as a remote investor, there really is no one as important as your property manager. So even if you're doing it locally too, and using professional property manager, your investment is gonna live and die by how well someone's going to be able to manage that for you and get, at least if you're not self managing and using professional property manager. So, you know, it doesn't matter if you're doing remotely or locally, but you know, especially if you're doing remotely, since you're not going to be able to visit the property that often do not sleep on the work that it takes to assess and qualify a property manager because you know, buying right can take you so far, but ultimately, you know, winning the operational metrics and keeping your overhead low is going to be on getting a good property manager. Who's going to keep that property occupied. So those are my final tidbits on it.   Emil: Well done. I know I don't get a rebuttal, but I thought those were all very strong.   Michael: I thought you both had strong points nicely done to you both. I'll share a little bit.   Tom: I'm excited for the Michael tidbits.   Michael: I was just going to share that I've done some, you alluded to it previously, Tom, but some quote unquote local investing. It was really, my first investment was down in Southern California, which we talked about on a previous episode, but I couldn't fathom investing remotely or out of state or really at much of a distance just because I was so green. So new to this space, you know, Roofstock wasn't around this whole education piece for a, Roofstock Academy wasn't around. And so that's all I knew. And so it was about three hour drive away from my grub. So it was semi local and I went and touched and toured a bunch of properties and met with my local agent who is a family friend who is also my property manager. So to Neil's point, we could touch a shake, hands, have visual rapport, physical rapport, which I'm kind of old school in that regard.   I would always prefer that. I think it's much more meaningful than the remote over zoom or over the telephone. And so I was able to be very hands on with that investment. And it's gone really well, given a long enough time horizon for anyone who listened to that first episode where it just like that property has been through several road bumps, several hiccups and speed. So the fact that it was local did not have any bearing on how difficult it was as a first property. It did not have any bearing on how bad or how sideways things could go. And that's been by far probably the worst experience I've had with any of my other investments. And so you can have good people and bad neighborhoods and bad people in good neighborhoods in local markets and at distance markets. So it's, you know, again, I think we said it before, it's not a one size fits all.   You just, every investor has to figure out what makes the most sense for them and Tom, you were just touching on it. I think if you need to baby, step your way into investing and start local or semi local, do it. If that's what it's going to take for you to start getting into the real estate investing arena, you know, start where it makes sense for you. Some people have no problem letting go of control and just doing it at a distance and setting up a team and kind of taking a back seat so to speak. But if that's not, you figure out how you operate as a person and figure out what's going to make the most sense for you. And then just go do it.   Emil: So for anyone who was curious about Michael's first deal, we covered that in episode 12, Here's What Our First Deal Looked Like and How They're Doing Today. That was the name of that episode. But I think, you know, the, the main theme, I'm glad you touched on that is there's people who are successful doing both right. There's people who are just local investors in expensive markets who are doing really well. People who just do remote investing, who are doing really, really well. And there's some people who do both, right. They do some local, some distance. And I think that's like the main thing we want to highlight. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. It kind of just depends on your situation. And I think there's people doing well and doing both,   Michael: I think I want to just double down on that statement Emil. It is so dependent on who you are as a person and where you live. Because if someone's living in the Midwest right now, listening to this, so like I'm surrounded by deals. Why would I ever go remote when there's tons in my backyard, us being all Californians were, you know, semi-forced to go remote and you know, forced to go invest at a distance. So if that's not, you don't think that, Oh, I have to go invest remotely because of everything they talked about in the podcast, maybe, you know, our remote is your local, Oh, that's a trademark, Michael Albaum,  July 28, 2020.   Emil: Our remote is your local.   Michael: Yeah. So just go find where the deals make sense. I think is the one of the biggest takeaways because they could be read under your nose and you might not even know it because you're so focused on remote. I absolutely looked at local as a first opportunity semi found it and then how to go remote after the fact.   Michael: All right guys, I think that was a great rap battle for remote versus local investing. And before I let you guys go, I've got the question of the episode for you. Are you ready?   Tom: Let's do it.   Emil: Always. I'm rabbit, baby. I'm winning this rat battle.   Michael: What's your favorite breakfast cereal and why?   Tom: I'm ready.   Michael: Tom go. It's called Magic Spoon. It's not made with normal sugar. It's made from the sugar of raisins. So it's actually being promoted on a lot of podcasts. We're not being paid to promote magic spoon here. We have no affiliation with any royalties, but we're not opposed to it. And so magic spoon is basically children's cereal for adults. It is delicious. It doesn't have carbs. It's full of protein. What's great about not being, you know, I could just kind of say, say the good things about it and not necessarily have a check, a reference check on it, but it's, it's really good. Magic spoon, peanut butter. It's great raisin sugar.   Michael: So if it doesn't have carbs, like what is it like, what is it made of?   Emil: Fairy dust.   Tom: Magic spoon.   Emil: I've heard of that. It's expensive. It's not cheap.   Tom: I can't believe how expensive it is. Don't get me going on that.   Michael: There was this like frozen yogurt place that came out. I don't know. Maybe this is like going back 15, 20 years and kind of dating myself. But it's got like golden spoon, in Southern California, but I like the name gives you no indication of what the thing is. Like you would never think that's an ice cream place because it's called the golden spoon. Am I the only one that thinks that, sorry, golden spoon… If…   Tom: Spoons got range. Alright Emil, how about you, favorite cereal?   Emil: Does granola. It's like a granola cereal kind of thing. It's called Autumn's gold. I found it recently a Costco and it's like all nuts and cinnamon. So kind of same deal. It's paleo. No carb. I try to eat paleo during the week, at least. So that's probably like the only cereal these days I eat. But if we're, if we're aligning the clock, favorite cereal growing up, it's gotta be them Lucky charms, man.   Michael: They're always after me Lucky charms.   Tom: Are you a guy who eats non marshmallows until the very end? And then you just go all marshmallow.   Emil: Is there any other way to eat Lucky Charms?   Michael: I don't trust anybody that eats Lucky Charms any other way?   Emil: Yeah.   Tom: Yeah. And remember that like promotion. They are like, oops, we made a mistake and just marshmallows, man, that person on the factory line. What a moron!   Emil: Or a genius dude. He sold so many Lucky Charms boxes and he was promoted to like vice president.   Tom: VP of product.   Michael: That was like Playdo. Wasn't that? A mistake invented by mistake. So many of the greatest things.   Pierre: Sticky notes.   Tom: Sticky notes.   Michael: Yeah. There you go. Alright, Pierre, what's your favorite breakfast cereal? And please don't say like the last pizza episode. I don't like breakfast cereal.   Pierre: Well, okay. I don't eat breakfast cereal for breakfast. It's more of a dessert. If I'm going to eat cereal, it's going to be before bed.   Michael: I don't always eat breakfast cereal, but when I do it before bed.   Emil: I'm with Pierre man.   Tom: I like that tip. I like that take, unless it's magic spoon. Go ahead.   Pierre: Hmm. Chocolate granola, chocolate hazelnut granola.   Michael: Nice, particular brand?   Pierre: Oh man. It doesn't matter, really. I was raised on coupons, so whatever's on sale.   Tom: Michael, you got one?   Michael: You guys are all healthy. I'm like cocoa puffs fan. I like my milk, but I prefer it to be chocolate. So that's really all it is. It's just a vehicle to get more chocolate milk. I don't really care how it tastes.   Emil: That is true. Just gives you chocolate milk at the end.   Michael: That's right.   Tom: I had a roommate, shout out to Carson Mobly. His, uh, he had this quote about food is just a vehicle for sauce.   Michael: I've always felt that way about carrots and celery. It's just like, how do I get bar ranch into my mouth in a faster, more efficient way.     Tom: It's just a vehicle for sauce.   MIchael: That's great. All right, everybody. That was our episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you liked the episode, feel free to give us a rating or review wherever it is you listen to podcasts. Also feel free to subscribe so that you get the most up to date episodes automatically downloaded to your listening device. We look forward to seeing you on the next one. Happy investing!   Tom: Happy investing.   Emil: Very formal, happy investing.  

Some of the highlights include:  Why Vodafone moved to a cloud native architecture. As Tom explains, the company was struggling to manage operations across more than 20 markets. They also needed to improve the customer experience, and foster customer loyalty.  Why their business and engineering teams were both in favor of cloud native. The benefits of deploying daily operational activities around a single cloud native platform.   An overview of where Vodavone currently is in their overall cloud native journey. Tom also explains how cloud native conversations have changed inside of the company throughout their journey, as various business units have caught on to the benefits of the cloud. Vodafaone's transition from outsourcing roughly 97 percent of their operations, to bringing 95 percent in house. Tom explains how this has improved efficiency and expedited time to market. The challenge that Vodafone faced in trying to apply legacy network security solutions to distributed and dynamic systems.  Tom's thoughts on why Vodafone's cloud native transition and modernization efforts have been crucial to their success over the last five years.  Links: Vodafone Group: https://www.vodafone.com/ Connect with Tom on LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/tom-kivlin-5b469321 The Business of Cloud Native: http://thebusinessofcloudnative.com  Tom's Twitter: https://twitter.com/tomkivlin CNCF GitHub: https://github.com/cncf CNCF Slack: https://slack.cncf.io/ Kubernetes Slack: http://slack.kubernetes.io/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native podcast, where we explore how end users talk and think about the transition to Kubernetes and cloud-native architectures.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and today I am chatting with Tom Kivlin. Tom, thank you so much for joining us.Tom: You're welcome. No problem.Emily: Let's just start out with having you introduce yourself. What do you do? Where do you work, and what do you actually do during your workday?Tom: Sure. So, I'm a principal cloud orchestration architect at Vodafone Group. I work in the UK. And my day job consists of providing guidance and strategy and architectural blueprints for cloud-native platforms within Vodafone. So, that's around providing guidance to the software domains that are looking to adopt cloud-native architectures and methodologies and also to the more traditional infrastructure domains to try and help them provide their services in a more cloud-native manner to those modern teams.Emily: And what does that mean when you go into the office—or your home office, go into your dining room where your laptop is, I don't know—what do you actually do? What does an average day look like?Tom: It can vary. So, depending on the activity at the time, it could be anything from preparing a global policy that needs to go through the senior technology leadership team, to preparing some extremely detailed requirements for selection process or creating some infrastructures code, or the code artifacts for the deployment of cloud-native services, whether that's in our lab, or to help our services teams within Vodafone.Emily: Tell me a little bit more about what pain made Vodafone think about moving to cloud-native and Kubernetes.Tom: Primarily, it was the challenge of having 25 different markets, or 23 now. We launched a digital strategy to—so back in 2015, we launched a five-year strategy, which we wanted to massively increase the rollout of 4G, of converged network offerings, of improved customer experience. And we found that the traditional way of managing software was not supportive enough in our ambition. And so, having to choose cloud-native technologies, things like Kubernetes, but also the modern operating models, that was the driver: it was to improve our customer experience, and our customer-affecting KPIs, really.Emily: And when you say it wasn't supportive enough, what do you mean specifically?Tom: So, things like time to market, for example. So, if we wanted to offer a new service—so one of the things that 4G started the drive towards was a more granulated service offering to consumers, and so lots of different things could be offered. And if it took you six months to think of an idea and then have to go through—or even longer than six months to get to the point where that could be offered to customers, even if it was just a very minor feature within an existing product, then that's not going to engender customer loyalty. And so, things like the cloud-native mindset, where there's a much closer link between the engineering teams and the customer, there are much shorter periods of time between ideas coming in from the customers and then being delivered back to the customers as product features, that sort of time to market was really enabled by cloud-native technologies and mindsets.Emily: And how does having two dozen, more or less, different markets, how does that play into the decision A) to move to cloud-native in general, and managing the IT infrastructure?Tom: So, one of the things that's really driven it is trying to simplify and reuse artifacts. So, if you've got 23 markets all doing a different thing, then there's obviously a lot of duplication happening across the group, whereas if everyone's using the same technology in the same platforms—take Kubernetes as the example—everyone can write their software for that platform. Everyone can write their operational ecosystem around that platform. So, the deployment artifacts, the pipelines, the day two operational activities, they can all be based around that single cloud-native platform. And so, that enables a huge amount of efficiency from the operational side. And that in turn allows those engineering teams to focus on things that are adding value to the business and the customer instead of having to focus on fairly low-level tasks that are just keeping the lights on, if you like.Emily: What's different for each one of those markets?Tom: So, it might be something like language, it might be something as simple as that. It may be that the offerings are slightly tweaked. So, rather than, I don't know, as an example, rather than Spotify being included as a kind of add on, it might be some other service that's more relevant to that market. It may be that there are particular regulatory requirements that are specific to a market that needs to be considered within the product design and the engineering of it. And so, having a cloud-native response allows sharing and reuse of artifacts where we can, but still allows for that customization where it's required.Emily: Where would you say Vodafone is in the cloud-native journey? Do you feel like you've, mission accomplished?Tom: So, mission accomplished, as in the first step, yeah. So, we set out a goal in 2015, to get a certain number of our applications to the Cloud, and that's largely been reached, I think, especially with our customer channels, so that the kind of points of interaction with the customer, the huge number of those are cloud-native today. And things like automated customer interaction with chatbots, and the like, that's all added to the cloud-nativeness of the interaction. As part of our next iteration, we'll be looking for more cloud-native software and cloud-native platforms, and that will start extending into the network systems themselves, as well as the more digital and easily modernizable layers, if you like.Emily: What sort of business value do you feel like you're looking for as you move to the next step?Tom: So, primarily, it's going to be driven by customer satisfaction and customer affecting KPIs, like I said before. That's always what's driven the business metrics anyway. So, things like being able to support the demand of the customer. So, whether that's the new 5G services, for increased bandwidth. So, obviously, if our network systems themselves are cloud-native, then taking advantage of the auto-scaling, and the auto-healing, and the autonomic nature, then the customer experience, and the customer satisfaction will increase. Improving time to market, so again, part of 5G is that the whole notion of creating more differentiating services, and so if we can do that through the cloud-native mindset with product owners being much more closely engaged with customers, then that improves our product offerings. And we can optimize our network profitability by using cloud-native features like modern big data analytics, and even AI and automation to improve the operations of the network. At the end of the day, the business value is improved customer satisfaction, which improves our financial performance, obviously.Emily: And when you started out in 2015, who was pushing for moving to cloud-native? Was this the business saying, “Hey, how do we improve customer satisfaction?” Was it engineering saying, “Hey, here's an idea for something that could help us move faster?” Who was behind that?Tom: That's a good question. I think it's probably an element of both. It was the opposite of the push me, pull you, I guess. So, there was engineering pushing on an open door, I suppose you could say. So, Cloud was a bit of a buzzword around that time anyway, but I think it's fair to say the concepts of improved time to market, improved stability, the potential for improved security, improved automation, and repeatability, they were all relatively easy sells to product teams who want to be able to sell products to customers. And once you're able to explain what problems those concepts solve, I think it became a bit of a, like I say, pushing on an open door.Emily: Can you tell me a little bit about the process of explaining what problems these things solve? Was there anything that was getting lost in translation?Tom: Yeah. I think the biggest thing that I can recall—obviously, it's a company-wide thing. I'm never going to be aware of everything that happens—certainly, it's critical to try and understand what the target operating model is before trying to say, “Here's the technology solution to it.” So, I think some of the lessons that were learnt in the early stages were, rather than trying to say, “Here's the technology answer to a modern way of working that hasn't been agreed or adopted or even understood yet,” let's do that part first, so people understand how they need to work in this modern kind of culture. And then the technology answers then make a bit more sense to people because they're able to say, “Okay, I understand the problems that's solving now because I'm now working in that way of working.” So, that's probably the biggest learning point I would take from the previous five years.Emily: Do you feel like the conversation, how did it evolve from the first conversations over the course of the past five years, and then what's it like now?Tom: It's very different now. The concept of Cloud and cloud-native has become a given and very well understood across the business, even outside of technology. So, we talked to other business units, and they're quite comfortable in understanding the benefits of Cloud. And it's now about when they mature into cloud-native, and when they mature operating models, rather than if. And it's now talking and giving guidance about how to do it, rather than trying to sell the concept itself. So, it just feels like you're at that next stage of not having to sell the idea anymore, and more into the detail of how to implement that idea.Emily: What would you say were some of the biggest surprises? And let's start with thinking about some of the biggest surprises, not necessarily technically but organizationally, in how engineering was talking with the business, how people were working together. Was there anything about this journey that was unexpected?Tom: Not particularly. I think the biggest change that happened, which was possibly unexpected when we started, was the level of insourcing that we have undertaken to support the cloud-native operating models, the time to market, and the modern engineering teams. So, we used to be around 97 percent outsourced or something like that, in terms of building software that wasn't just vendor supplied. And for all that software now, we're more like 95 percent in-house. And so, that's quite a big change, and I think that probably surprised people that A) we needed to do it, and B) that we have done it, and relatively successfully got pretty wide-scale digital engineering functions across many markets now.Emily: And why do you think that matters?Tom: Because it gives us control of the roadmap, it gives us control of that time to market cadence, and it allows us to use the data that our teams understand and know about, and to share that with other markets. So, as I say, even though an engineering team might be in the UK, they can share what they've done, they can share the artifacts, they can share the data that's driven decisions and software activity with other markets within Vodafone. And that just improves that efficiency, again.Emily: Do you think insourcing also improves customer satisfaction KPIs?Tom: Certainly we've seen that. So, whether that's a correlation or causation is kind of for someone with more access to more data than I've got. But certainly, we've seen an increase in online sales, and our digital marketing is more data-driven. And that has happened in correlation with the in-sourcing of software engineering skillset, yeah.Emily: Do you have any specific examples that come to mind in, maybe you are able to react in a way that wouldn't have been possible if you'd been using the old system?Tom: I'm not aware of any specific examples, unfortunately.Emily: Was there anything about the move to Kubernetes, to cloud-native, that you expected to be difficult, and wasn't. So, that was easier than you expected?Tom: That's a good question. I suspect the provision of multiple clusters. Kubernetes is difficult. It's a complex system, hence why there are so many cluster management vendor offerings available. And I think we chose a couple of partners early on in the journey to help us with that, and I think that really helped, and it made Kubernetes a little less scary for the software teams who were using it. So certainly, I've heard feedback—this is anecdotal, rather than anything that's evidence-driven—actually, just being able to create clusters and deploy into them was easier than people had thought when they were learning about Kubernetes through the quick start tutorials and the like.Emily: Was there anything that sticks out as being far more difficult than expected? The more unpleasant surprises?Tom: I wouldn't necessarily call them unpleasant, but obviously there's going to be a transition period—which we're in—between the traditional data-center-centric networking and network security policies and concepts, and those that work with Cloud and cloud-native platforms like Kubernetes. And there have definitely been challenges in trying to apply the legacy approach to network security with a distributed and dynamic system like Kubernetes, where you can't give everything a static IP address or even have separate subnets within a cluster for segregation, for example. It has to be done in a different way. You can still apply the same controls, they just have to be done in a different way. So, I think that's one of a few challenges that we found that we've had to work through with different vendors, with engineering teams, and with our internal teams to try and update our guidance on how to apply those controls.Emily: And to what extent have there been organizational challenges, and how have you gotten over those?Tom: That's a tricky one to answer, really. I think it all comes down to the balance between understanding and buying into a strategy, but then applying that to application lifecycle and investment lifecycles. So, I think this is probably true for any company: just because a strategy says this is the thing to do, you got a roadmap for your portfolio of applications and services that you need to balance a limited budget. And so, that's been the biggest challenge, is to try and identify how much of each budget at various levels can be spent on strategic activity, and then for which services, and trying to keep that balance, and bearing in mind that there are lots of different things pulling on that same pot of money.Emily: And what have you learned about managing that?Tom: I think primarily that there needs to be a holistic view of strategic projects. It's quite difficult to put the onus on a local budget, to spend the money to do something strategic when the benefits are probably—and the business case is probably seen more widely than the individual budget area. But I think it differs between situations, and between markets, and what's happening. I think the primary thing is to understand the costs of the strategy upfront, and try and work those costs into whatever needs doing over the period.Emily: A slightly different question, which is, is there anything you feel like in the cloud-native journey that you're still working on solving, that you haven't really figured out yet?Tom: I'm not sure whether we haven't figured this out yet, but one of the things we're putting a lot of effort in at the moment, is the use of advanced data and analytics platforms to try and drive even more network automation, and network planning efficiencies. So, I think it was last year at Google Next, we announced a partnership with Google to make use of their data services. And there's a few projects ongoing within Vodafone to try and drive the amount of knowledge and useful information we can gather from the vast quantities of data we have about our services and the customers that use them because the more we can use that data, the more we can respond to customer need in a timely manner, whether that's reactively in terms of operational response or whether that's proactively in seeing trends that we can then meet a need that may be unsaid yet.Emily: And if you were to talk to another engineering leader who was trying to push through the open door as you were saying, what advice would you give them?Tom: The biggest bit of advice is to understand the current way of working for whichever area you're—is on the other side of the door, and understand their pain points because it's not always the same answer. So, generalizing, it may be that one area is more than happy to have a centralized global platform offering, whether that's within our data centers, or public cloud, or both. Another area, just the way it's managed, may require a more distributed model, where the services are offered on a more market specific level. And so, I think that that's the main thing, is to understand the specifics of that area that you're talking to because it will affect how you want to architect and onwardly deploy and manage that technology.Emily: It would affect not just how you want to architect the technology, but also how you want to communicate what your plan is, right?Tom: Absolutely. Yeah. So, in the first of the examples I gave, where an area might be happy with a centralized service, that probably means they're already using one. The way you would communicate that would be via that existing channel, if you like. Whereas on the flip side, that kind of channel may not exist, and therefore running the project or projects and communicating with stakeholders would be much more distributed.Emily: At Vodafone was there ever any challenge selling it, not just over to the business side, but also selling internally inside engineering teams? Or was everyone pretty gung ho to do this?Tom: No, there's always challenges. I think again, it goes back to understanding the pain points of an area and understanding why things are the kind of as they are today, which I guess is general for things outside of technology and outside of Vodafone generally is. If you understand the position of the person you're debating with, then you're more likely to reach a common understanding than if you go into it with your own point of view and being unwilling to listen. So, I think that's the main thing is just being willing to listen, to understand pain points, and to be able to react to those within a strategy. You'd hope that it's flexible enough to be able to meet a wide range of needs without needing to necessarily change the overall vision.Emily: How important do you think this cloud-native transition has been for Vodafone?Tom: I think it's been crucial. I think we couldn't have done what we've done in the last five years without it. So, there's a video that our group CTO has posted on LinkedIn recently which highlighted a few things around improved mobile KPIs, we've got 4G in 21 markets, we've got the largest 5G in Europe, and all of those improvements from time to market I've already mentioned, we simply couldn't have done that without a modernization program to move to cloud-native across a number of our systems. So, yes, that's partly a technology thing, but also, it is such a cultural thing, and having that modern way of working where you have your modern engineering teams who are closer to the customer, but they're also—the different mindset of a modern engineering company where you're not afraid to try new things, and if you fail, you learn from them. And I think that's all part of what I would class as cloud-native, and that has been, like I say, it's been crucial for us to be able to get where we have been.Emily: It's interesting to think cloud-native means if you fail, you learn from it. That's a fairly basic concept, and yet true. I can see how that is, sort of, part of being cloud-native.Tom: Yeah, it's one of those things is quite a basic thing, but I think in traditional ways of working, the focus on the availability of systems and the performance of systems can blind everyone to the possibilities outside of that particular area of focus. And it puts pressure on people at all levels to try and minimize periods of downtime or periods of low performance. And over time, people become less and less willing to be able to try new things, through fear of failing because just the way people work it's difficult to learn from those failings because it affects customers. And so, what cloud-native technologies enable because of the way things are orchestrated—things are dynamic, things are repeatable—it's very easy to try new things, and not affect all customers. Now, obviously, good software engineering practices help as well. But I think the cloud-native technologies and the ways of working really do support the whole “learn by failing” premise.Emily: Do you think it would have been possible to get the customer satisfaction KPIs that you did, without moving to cloud-native, in any other way?Tom: I think the only way you could have done is by a huge investment in people and the traditional technologies. It would have been a much more expensive and slower journey, in my opinion.Emily: Anything else that you want to add about your experience moving to cloud-native?Tom: No, I don't think so. I think one of the things—like I said before, the increase in automation, the increase in the modern technologies is just really helped with those customer affecting KPIs, and that has to be the drive for why you're doing it.Emily: All right, just a couple more questions, then. What is your can't-live-without engineering tool?Tom: Oh, that's a good question. Probably Python. I think so many people use it either as a cross-platform scripting tool to be able to automate things and get on the first step towards cloud-native, or it's such a key part of many cloud-native tools like things like Ansible and other tools, and it's used hugely within our data analytics domain to try and drive the usefulness of the data. So, yeah, that's probably the one I'd choose.Emily: And then this actually is the last question which is, how can listeners follow you or connect with you?Tom: So, I'm on Twitter at @tomkivlin. I'm also on LinkedIn. So, I'm Tom Kivlin, working for Vodafone Group. I am a member of the telecom user group within the CNCF. So, you can find them on GitHub and also in the… I think it's the CNCF or the Kubernetes Slack. And yeah, happy to share experiences and keep learning.Emily: Well, thank you so much. Again, this is Tom Kivlin, and we'll go ahead and wrap it up there. Thank you so much, Tom.Announcer: Thank you for listening to The Business of Cloud Native podcast. Keep up with the latest on the podcast at thebusinessofcloudnative.com and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are distributed. We'll see you next time.This has been HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Tom Kayser was the president of the Texas League for 25 years. The San Antonio Missions were members of the Texas League during that time. He has authored books on the Texas League and baseball's Texas history. He is revered for his success as the president and his love of the game. Listen to him share his stories and thoughts on the game that defined his life. Transcript: Justin Hill: Hello and Bienvenidos, San Antonio. Welcome to The Alamo Hour discussing the people, places and passion that make our city. My name is Justin Hill, a local attorney, a proud San Antonian, and keeper of chickens and bees. On The Alamo Hour, you'll get to hear from the people that make San Antonio great and unique and the best kept secret in Texas. We're glad that you're here. All right, welcome to episode 10 of The Alamo Hour. Today's guest is Tom Kayser. Tom is a baseball man. He was the president of the Texas League for 25 years. It's one of three double-A minor leagues. That's a yes, I got a head nod. Tom Kayser: Sorry. [laughter] Justin: He wrote Baseball in The Lone Star State, the Texas Leagues greatest hits. He wrote The Texas League Almanac. In 2016, he was inducted into the Texas League Hall of Fame. We've asked him on here today to talk about Texas, Texas baseball, the Missions. The Missions were part of the Texas League and I think, Tom's got a lot to add on. Anybody who's interested in baseball, anybody who's followed the city's quest to get a baseball team and sort of the considerations there. Tom, thank you for being here. Tom: I'm happy to do it. Justin: I always start these with kind of a top 10 list. Get to know a little bit more about you, get to know sort of your connection to our city. You do live in San Antonio, right? Tom: Absolutely. Justin: How long have you lived here and sort of what part of town have you lived in? Tom: Bought a house inside of 1604, in the East of 281 back in October of '93 and I still live in that house. Justin: Is that right? Tom: Yes. Justin: A lot's changed there. Tom: Yes. There wasn't anything on the other side of 1604. As a matter of fact, Gold Canyon wasn't even there back then. You could go across 281 on a bridge, on the Henderson Pass, it used to cross over there and can't do that anymore, but too many people. Justin: You've been here a long time. Tom: I have. Justin: Straight the whole time, '93 on. Tom: Absolutely. Justin: We're in COVID shutdown. This is kind of a strange question, but I think it works. Any favorite place to eat right now? We're doing a bunch of takeout. We're trying to support our old favorites, but is there any spot you're going to or are you shut down? Tom: I'm a pretty good cook, HEB basically. I buy my supplies, but we're coming out of the soup season. I'm just finishing a barley mushroom soup which is fabulous. Having had my office in my house, it's really what I tended to do is eat at home a lot. I wish I could come up with a top. Justin: I need to learn. Tom: Pericos on Saturday morning on 1604 because we've had a group, go on a breakfast on Saturday for tacos forever. Justin: That's great. Tom: It's down to a very slimmed-down group of four. Justin: Right now? Tom: No. We really miss it too, boy. Justin: We'll be there again soon. I had Commissioner [unintelligible 00:03:13] here and I said, we'll get back to normal soon and he was not very encouraging to my optimism. I'm hoping he's wrong because I think we all need to. You've lived here long enough and you have been involved in baseball on the side of town that I really haven't spent much time where the Missions play in that part of town. Are there any things in San Antonio that you think are hidden gems, is what I call them? You've got somebody coming into town and you go, ''Yes, but this isn't in the guidebook, you really need to go see this or do this thing.'' Tom: I tend to take people to the Pearl for sure, but there are so many things that are on the top 10 that it's like, if...

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"Shameless Hagan, driving the milk-van down to the park, in the dark. Why does he get up each day, do the same old shit? Nobody knows... Shameless Hagan..." Mount Pheasant returns! Oh yes! In this second offering; the unemployable Richard Pheasant is still sick. But just how sick? And how unemployable? Join us now as we descend into some 'Man Country...' Dick: Ooh, that Tuborg gives ya an awful wind. What you lookin’ at Tom? Yeah, I see you starin’. Shakin’ that shovel, shakin’ that shovel… Heard the news I suppose yeah?Tom: No, Dick, eh (cough) I’m not, I’m sorry, sorry, I don’t understand that sort of thing- Dick: Hah? You takin’ the piss? Ah of course, you’ve never been unemployed. Always cleanin’ up for the council. Well I hope you’re happy Tom Kendall, Dick Pheasant is on his knees, a doley once again! Tom: No, no, no… I- I wish you nothing but the best of luck, and I-I mean that. Dick: Ah go on with yourself. Tom: Look, the anger’ll pass… I know. I read Rock Hudson’s book, he said- Dick: G’luck Tom, don’t know what yer sayin’ as usual.(Walking) Dick: This fuckin’ place. Spiteful, secrets! Mount Eidel with its crispy, clean Chemical Factory… With their big salaries and their Hyundais. I tell ya, this town just pulls at the rage in ya. Ah, fuck it, just get some cans, head up home, have a couple of drags on me emaciated penis… Lisa: Oh! I- Dick: Ah howaya Lisa, lookin’ well! Lisa: Howaya Dick, are, are ya alright? You look fierce pale. Is, is that what happens? Dick: Nah, nah, just a little dose of the- hah? Lisa: Ah don’t say it love. Listen, if you need anyone to talk to, or if you would like someone to read your favourite book to ya, I’m here. Dick: Eh, thanks Lisa, but, what, me favourite book? Lisa: That one you showed me that time. ‘Morris’ was it? By some ‘Forster’ lad. Dick: I’ve no idea what you’re on about Lisa. Lisa: Aw no hun, it takes the memory away too does it? Dick: Hah? Lisa: Ponkin said just because it’s not the 80s... Ah stop, I wasn’t even born in the 80s, what do I know? But I do know that I’m with you every step of the way, we all are, we’re all behind you Dick Pheasant. Here, here’s a six pack of Tuborg, on the house. Dick: Bidda F- eh thanks Lisa! I never knew you liked the metal as well- Lisa: I’d flash ya a tit an’ all but I guess it wouldn’t work on you now. Dick: Ah stop it Lisa, I’m only sick. Lisa: Breaks my heart. It really does. Oh look, there’s Linda in her Pajero. Dick: Oh no. She’ll be all over m- eh, howaya Linda! How’s- (Footsteps pass quickly) Lisa: Fuck. Did you see the look she gave ya? Dick: Like I was dead! Didn’t even say- Lisa: Here, you go home with these, I’ll see to that bitch in the shop. Kiss ya hun. (Scooter zooms in) Cottle: Dick! Dick! Have ya a moment? Dick: Eh, Jaysus Cottle, thought you were Ponkin with the scooter there. Did you borrow it? Don’t let him forget it was you. Cottle: No, it’s Eidel Radio’s, so we can get the word on air even quicker. Do you have a minute? Dick: I’ve many minutes now sure. A man of long days of leisure. Cottle: Dick, I need a human interest story, somethin’ from the heart yunno, that the listeners will identify with, someone who can show the real side of things… Dick: Have ya tried Tom Kendall there? He’s a shovel up close to his heart, as he leans on the cunt half the time! Bidda lord! No, don't read this bit, keep listening! Top quality audio adventures from Amplevoicepod. Biff! Bam! Snot! Podcasting done right.

Settle in as Kali and Evan light up some Do-Si-La-Do and discuss important topics such as why anyone would ever own a printer, Billie's frustrating unwillingness to meet people where they are, and refrigerated murder trucks. We also lose our shit about Lala and Ariana and, as always, remain fervently #TEAMKATIE. Find us on Instagram or Facebook @disgustingtruck or email us at disgustingtruck@gmail.com.

Join the marriage after God movement today. https://marriageaftergod.com Quote from Marriage After God chapter 6 "Walking in autonomy is not only dangerous for your marriage, it is also rebellious. Our relationship with Christ cannot be separate from our relationship with other believers." In this chapter of marriage after God we end with this encouragement: “Don’t wait to be pursued; be the pursuers. Don’t wait to be served; be the faithful servants. Don’t wait to be loved and invited. Love and invite. Be transparent with your marriage, be honest, and love well. We are all connected. We are all one in Jesus Christ, and He is our head, leading us and guiding us to do His will in this world.” Dear Lord, Thank you for the gift of your body. Thank you for the gift of fellowship and friendship. May we be people who are motivated by love to reach out and be a friend to others. We pray we would have the courage and confidence to be people who welcome others in, who are transparent, who are there for others, who lift others up and who pray for others. Use our marriages to be an encouragement to other marriages. Use us as a team to bring you glory, Lord. Help us to never live in isolation. Help us never to be divided. We pray the enemy and we pray our own flesh wouldn’t get in the way of fellowship. May our desire to participate in your body increase even more! May the way we treat one another be a light and an example to the rest of this world. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're on part six of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Tom and Heidi Celaya about the importance of Christian fellowship. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We had been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Aaron] We just want to invite everyone that's listening to leave a review. That helps other people find the podcast. It's how iTunes works, it's how all the podcast apps work. A review helps us get reach. And also if you would like to support this podcast, we'd love to invite you to go to our store, shop.MarriageAfterGod.com, and pick up a copy of our new book, Marriage After God. It's what this whole series is about. It's our newest book and we're excited to get it into your hands. And yeah. [Jennifer] Okay. So Tom and Heidi, thank you so much for being with us today. [Heidi] Thanks for having us guys. [Jennifer] People don't know this, but we've been friends for a really long time. What is it like nine or 10 years? [Heidi] Nine years, actually this month. [Jennifer] Crazy. Okay, so why don't you just share a little bit about who you guys are, how long you've been married, and how many kids you have, what you do for work, that kind of thing. [Tom] Yeah, I guess this is my part, she said. So, we're Tom and Heidi. We've been married 11 years and three months, four months, October of '07. So we just yesterday passed our 14th dating anniversary, which she made me feel like garbage 'cause I didn't get her anything and she got me a couple things. [Heidi] I did not. [Aaron] You're like, I didn't know we were celebrating our dating anniversary-- [Heidi] I was at Sam's Club and got him a pair of shorts. [Tom] Yeah, I didn't know we were celebrating. And you got me cookies as well. But anyways, we have two kids, a nine-year-old daughter, eight-year-old son. And yeah, we've been living in our home currently for five years, and I'm in medical sales for a job and Heidi runs the house here and handles our crazy kids. So yeah, we're kind of a normal, somewhat normal family I think. [Jennifer] Awesome. Okay you guys, we're gonna go into our icebreaker question, which, Aaron, you want to ... [Aaron] Yeah. What is one of your favorite memories of us from our friendship over the years? [Heidi] Oh man. Favorite memory. [Tom] I don't know. [Jennifer] 'Cause there's so many. [Aaron] 'Cause all of your memories are your favorite of us. [Tom] Right, that's the whole-- [Woman] Yes. [Tom] I've got a few. I don't know exactly which one I would say my favorite is. Gosh. [Jennifer] I feel like when we think about this question, I was telling Aaron, all the late nights, all the late nights we spent at your guys' island eating ice cream and just chatting and laughing. [Aaron] They don't own an island. Their kitchen island. [Heidi] Yep. Thank you. I didn't understand what she was-- [Tom] I was gonna say, one of my, one of the ones I think of and laugh about, because I think it's disgusting, is the fact that we would go get ice cream and you would get a shake or a malt with half and half instead of, like, low fatter. I remember just thinking just, oh my gosh, that's disgusting, I can't believe he's drinking that. And we would probably-- [Aaron] Yeah, what was it? Circus animal ice cream? [Tom] Yes. [Heidi] Yes, with half and half. [Aaron] With half and half. Half and half cream-- [Tom] In Clairemont, yeah. And you would just, you loved it and you would feel a little sick afterwards, but it was, we were always just laughing about it for a long time. [Aaron] It was so worth it though. [Jennifer] I think that's really abnormal. I don't think a lot of people would relate to you on that, Aaron. [Tom] No. [Heidi] No. [Aaron] You're making me, I want one right now. [Heidi] I think my most-- [Aaron] That's a good memory-- [Heidi] Story of you two is how we were kind of desperate for friends, married couple friends, and when we met you at Fuse kind of offering, hey, if you guys ever want, we are about 20 minutes away, but we'd love to have you over for dinner. And you actually took us up on the offer and I think-- [Tom] A lot-- [Heidi] What was it, three to four times a week over at my house, and I loved it. I think when you throw out that, hey, we should have you guys over sometime, it never really ever happens and you kind of feel a little bit hurt that they didn't take you up on the offer, but to have you guys take us up on the offer and for us to get so close and dive so deep into both of our marriages was definitely my favorite because I mean, we both put ourselves out there and opened up so much that-- [Aaron] Yeah, we loved that-- [Heidi] It couldn't have happened otherwise. [Jennifer] And I think we were in a place in our marriage where we really needed it too. So I think that's really cool. [Aaron] We definitely were, yeah. That's what this episode's about, actually. [Jennifer] Yeah, this episode is all about friendship and fellowship and so we're gonna dive into a quote from Marriage After God from this chapter. [Aaron] And it's walking in autonomy is not only dangerous for your marriage, it is also rebellious. Our relationship with Christ cannot be separate from our relationship with other believers. [Heidi] So true. [Aaron] Yeah, so that's from chapter six of our book, Marriage After God, and the chapter title's called Walking Autonomously Doesn't Work. And when we thought about who we can interview for this episode, you guys were the first people that we thought of because in our life when we needed fellowship the most and when we were afraid of it the most, we found you guys and you found us. [Jennifer] Well, yeah, I was gonna say, it was that you guys wrapping your arms around us and inviting us to your table at that marriage bible study, which Heidi mentioned earlier, it's called Fuse. That was a turning point in our relationship and our marriage, and it just stands out to us and I think it forever will. And I'm just really excited about this because other people listening will be able to hear your guys' side of the story because if they read Unveiled Wife or if they're gonna read Marriage After God, we mention you guys and we mention your impact in our lives surrounding fellowship with other believers. And yeah-- [Aaron] Have they read what we wrote about them yet? [Jennifer] No. But now you're here and they get to hear from you guys. So I love that. [Aaron] Awesome. And you guys haven't read the chapter yet, right? [Tom] No. [Heidi] No. [Aaron] Okay, good. It's all good stuff, I promise. Yeah. [Jennifer] Okay, so speaking of that night at Fuse where we showed up, our marriage was in turmoil and we were just looking for that last ditch effort, kind of like, what are we doing? We step into this bible study, there's a lot of marriages and people there greeting one another and we're like freaking out on the inside. Kind of look at each other like, let's get out of here. [Aaron] It was terrifying. Walking into that big old, a huge open room, and how many people were there when we came? It was like probably-- [Heidi] Probably 600. [Tom] No, no. Probably about 350. [Heidi] You think so? [Tom] Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, 350 people. It was a lot. It wasn't as full as it got, but it was pretty full when we came. [Tom] Yeah. [Jennifer] And anyways, we were trying to sneak out. We were trying to find a way to just walk back out the doors and Tom comes up and sticks his arms around Aaron and I and he's like, hey, you guys new? [Aaron] I remember getting startled by it actually. 'Cause we were walking backwards, which I know is-- [Heidi] And he's not a small guy either, so, big old mitts on your shoulders. [Jennifer] So you guys brought us to your table and that was kind of the beginning of our friendship together. So Tom, you've mentioned that Aaron's appearance at the time, he had plugs in his ears, he had a beard and-- [Aaron] Yeah, tattoos on my wrist. [Jennifer] Not the typical guy you would have been friends with back then. But can you just share, what was going through your mind at that moment? [Tom] Yeah, let's state for the record, clearly I'm not a very judgmental person. At least I don't think though, but yeah, at the time, just, here's ... I am the non-talkative one of Heidi and I's relationship. To be very clear, Heidi loves the talking and doesn't stop. So, and that's just not my style. And so God has placed us in this marriage, which is a story in and of itself or in this marriage ministry where we took over this table at this marriage group, and he just blessed it. It became a huge group of probably around 30 people, so about 15 couples, and they really, what they wanted was 10 couples or 10 people at each table, five couples. And so we were big and it was, it's something I loved. Most of those people are still friends to this day, but it was a lot for me and just how I like to operate, so yeah, I look up that night and see these two. And we are also one of the younger tables there at the time. [Aaron] Yeah, I remember that. [Tom] Seeing you guys walk in, I was like, oh gosh, they're our age group. They're probably our life experiences as of right now, whether it's young kids or no kids and some are looking over there and thinking, uh, no thanks. I don't know this girl who is an all American gal is standing next to this guy who's got plugs in his ear-- [Aaron] A little weird-- [Tom] Short hair, a beard, all these things, I'm looking. Like I am 100% as I said a minute ago, I'm not judgmental, I was 100% judging and thinking, I would never hang out with that guy. That gal looks like a great friend for my wife, but I would never hang out with that dude, we've got enough people at our table, I'm good. And there's those times that God whispers and you're not sure it's God, and there's other times where you just kind of move. You're like, what the heck is happening, because I don't really want to be doing this and perfectly honest, that's what was happening. Is I just felt the nudge and the pull, and so I got up and walked over and yeah, and you guys were ready to move out. You actually were on the way out. [Aaron] You saw it. [Tom] I remember Jen's face was one of sheer terror, of, oh God, we almost got out of here and this guy just ruined it. And Aaron's was more of a, okay, okay, good. This, okay, we'll do it. [Aaron] I needed it. I was, I needed someone to hold my hand in that moment because like, I wanted it, but I didn't know-- [Tom] Yeah, so we moved towards the table and that was literally one of those, it changed our life, changed our marriage, and it was one of those things, I'm darn glad I got out of my seat and went and did it. Because not only was that good for us, but I can also speak to others who have zero desire to include other people or you know, you hear a comment a lot like, I have enough friends or whatnot, which I think is a bad comment to make. One I've probably made my own, but it moved me out of my comfort zone and changed our lives for the better. [Jennifer] I love that you shared all of that. And so much of this book is about saying yes to God in moments like that where he nudges you or he pulls you out of your chair and you say yes to him and you do it anyways. And I'm just so you guys know, we still really appreciate that you did that for us. [Aaron] Yeah, and we not only have written about it extensively, but we share the story often and we, a part of the, what we talk about in this chapter, specifically with what you guys did in our life is when you, Tom and Heidi, said Yes to God in that one little moment, which was a series of yeses, becoming the leaders of that table and wherever God had led you before that, you wouldn't have known back then what kind of effect, lasting effect it would have in the fact that that one moment would not only turn into a lifetime friendship and relationship with us, but would also impact thousands and thousands of other marriages and people through your one act of obedience. [Tom] Yeah, there's-- [Aaron] So I, go ahead-- [Tom] We've met people, or not met, I shouldn't say that. Actually, we have. People we've met and then also people we knew that years later we talk to or run into or Heidi meets randomly in a grocery store and like I said, she talks to everybody. We're mentioned right, as you helped our marriage or you were instrumental and perfectly honest, we did nothing. We were fools, of sorts, used by God because we didn't even know we had any impact on these people, let alone strangers, but then people we knew years later say, you have no clue what you did for us. It's just, it's humbling, it's neat, and just to understand that if you allow God to use you, you have no clue what he's gonna do. And probably by the time Heidi and I are in graves, we'll have no clue what impact we had. But that's what we're supposed to do, we're supposed to be used by God for his greater good. [Aaron] Yeah, and I hope those that are listening right now, and that's exactly why I wanted to interview these people like you is because people don't know. They may think, what can I do? How can God use me? And you simply got up and said hi to us. Now, it's lots of laughter and tears after that, but still just that one act of obedience, the fruit from that is exactly what God's looking for from all of us and that's, I just love that you highlighted that. So, man, I'm loving this interview so far. Is this the one we want to go with? Okay. So what kind of barriers do you think keep believers from close fellowship with other believers? Because that's what we had. We grew in close fellowship with each other. What do you think it is that stops believers from making that deep connection and walking in obedience with fellowship with other believers? [Heidi] Oh, man. Honestly, I'd have to say pride. A lot of times, especially with social media age, you want to give your best face, you want to show pictures of your kids perfectly dressed and their hair perfectly done and you'll move things out of the background of the picture just so that way the background looks nice. But I think, unfortunately, I think people don't want to share their stink. They don't want to say, we're going through this issue or I have this deep seated issue or they just don't want their stuff out there for people to judge or question how perfect they thought their life was. And I think it's uncomfortable for people to let down that wall and share who they really are and share what their marriage is really going through. [Jennifer] Yeah, you guys have been really good at being an example of how to live transparently with other people, 'cause you guys were open with us and that opened the flood gates for us to be open with you guys because of that example. And I think it's so important for people to hear, how would you encourage someone to walk transparently with one another? How do you do that? [Tom] I think there's another aspect to it too, is from a good friend who joined the group as well that said he was tired of bible studies with people that weren't like him. And not necessarily weren't like him as in same exact life experiences, but as I kind of said with Aaron, looked at him and thought I'd never hang out with that guy. He was always turned off by, well, I tried this group, I tried that group, it didn't work. All those guys were nerds or none of those guys played sports or things of that nature. And there's a constant, I get that part, but if you're open to it, you might find that, as I tell my kids, right now in school, you may, there may be differences and clicks or different things like that, but as you get older, those things really do melt away. And especially if it's a brother or sister in Christ, you have a really deep bond that many don't understand. But there's a part to it too, when you hang out with those who aren't like you. For instance, Aaron, when you and I were in the men's fellowship group together, gosh, you were obviously younger than me, but we were both vastly younger than anyone else in that room and just-- [Aaron] Yeah, I remember that. [Tom] Stuff that we picked up from those guys who one was divorced, one was married, he was married but they were both from divorced families and kind of had a Brady Bunch type of union now. The things that I learned from that group, including on how not to talk to my wife and ended up actually causing some stress in my marriage when I told her how I shouldn't be talking to you, even though I have been, then all of a sudden she picked up on what a jerk I had been. [Aaron] She's like, yeah, you shouldn't talk to me like that. [Tom] Yeah, it was a total backfire move on my part. But it just, the things you learn from people when you continue to give it a shot and be open to it. If you go in with walls, you're gonna come out with walls. If you go in-- [Aaron] That's good-- [Tom] Being willing to hear or listen, I think everybody can find that community and like Heidi said, if you're willing to lower your walls and lower your pride, you'll find out everybody's just as jacked up as you are. It's just different levels, 'cause no marriage is perfect. [Aaron] Oh, I love that. And it's like the, it's this idea that recognizing what we do have in common, which is Christ, and being okay with that being the thing that we connect on because that's what God wants anyway and being able to throw out those preferences of like, well, I only want to spend time with this kind of person, which is hard to find the right person. It's rare that we have that kind of relationship, right. So I love that. How have you two navigated being a part of fellowship with the body of Christ? [Jennifer] And maybe how are you currently fellowshipping with other believers? [Tom] I got nudged, so this one's mine. So we no longer attend a church where it's facilitated by the church. So we met via a group that was facilitated by the church. And to be honest, thank God for them, they made it easy, right. Childcare and a building and all those things. So that doesn't exist where we live anymore, and so, and we don't attend a church that really has that. So now it's become harder work. It's no longer the ease of high school, seeing your friends every day and then you become an adult and go to different colleges or go to different jobs. It takes work for those relationships, and so that's where we are now. It's a lot of work to continue this. And so there's an aspect of that that's more rewarding. There's also an aspect that's more frustrating. So we totally get the part where continuing in this type of ministry or this type of group is not easy, but it's so important. When we take breaks from it, I don't want to call it a toll because it sounds negative or like it's destructive, but the toll it takes on our marriage is seen. It's very easily seen in that we just don't vibe as well. A marriage becomes more difficult than it has to be when we're not in fellowship with others. [Aaron] So even if it's not as easy as it was, you guys recognize that it's still a necessity and a vital part of your Christian faith is that you must be in fellowship, whatever that looks like. [Tom] Yeah, there's something to it when people ask, I work with so many people who will ask like, how often do you and Heidi fight or what do you do this, or how do you handle this? And yeah, and I explain that to them. There's a part where you share life with others and these can be people who are non Christians. Just when you share life with others and share your experiences, your victories, your struggles, that's what we were created for. And again, if I'm talking to a non Christian, I don't have, I throw God in there, but there's an aspect for them too, that even if you're not a believer in Christ, if you're not fellowshipping with people who help you get better or can take some of the load off or even just share life with, you're missing something. And so, yeah, there's a definite need for us every day, if not at least once a week, like a marriage group that we have now, we have to do it or else there's just a hole and there's a window that-- [Aaron] So you're saying is it's just a basic, it's the way God created us as humans is we need deep human connection, we need deep human relationships and that we can't just walk autonomously. And then especially for the believer, we need Christian fellowship to be around other Christians to sharpen us, to grow us. That's what I'm hearing you say. [Tom] Exactly what I'm saying-- [Aaron] Is that it's not something we can just, we can't just throw it out. Right, that's what, which is what a lot of Christians do. I use this word autonomous. A lot of believers are totally fine with autonomy because that seems easier. Like, oh, just, you can have what Heidi said. You can have this facade and long as you, let's be cordial and we'll be nice and all, we'll hug on Sundays, but then you're not allowed to know who I am, you're not allowed to see the dirt in my life, you're not allowed to call me out on anything, you're not allowed to know that the dark parts of me. [Jennifer] How do we grow and mature if we're not letting people see who we are? [Aaron] Well, we can't. [Heidi] We don't. [Aaron] That's the point is, I don't want to grow and therefore I don't tell anyone or show anyone who I am. [Jennifer] But a marriage after God wants to grow. [Aaron] Exactly. [Jennifer] So a marriage after God's going to be doing this. You touched on a point about your church not facilitating that easy fellowship time currently. And so for people who are listening right now, what would you say is an action step for them to be an initiator in this, so that they're not waiting around, waiting for an invitation or waiting for it to be easy. What can someone do today? What can a couple do today to-- [Aaron] Be the starters-- [Jennifer] To be the starters of-- [Aaron] Be the initiator. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Do what Tom did and get up and walk over and put his arm around us. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Tom] Yeah, I think the first and easy start for me would be at a church you're at, you obviously, if you don't, if you go in and out of that building and don't connect or talk to anybody, you're doing yourself and that body a disservice. So it'd be just connecting very simply with people at the church. Again, maybe somebody that you have, when you pick up your kids from childcare, obviously there's somewhere you can connect. There's so many spots to just start there. The other might be just friends in general. And Aaron, you brought up a point, the autonomy. There's something to it, right, where there's a couple of good friends of mine who I'm not as extreme as this, but literally don't like to talk to somebody. And it's funny though when you ask the question, well, what happens when you're out in public and there's a Christian connection of sorts, like somebody mentions something or you see somebody praying and somebody mentions it to you. There's an instant spark, there's an instant connection because out in the world when you find somebody who has that fearlessness of being able to say, yeah, I'm a Christian, or lives it out in front of you, there's a spark that you automatically have a bond. And so at your church, I think it's the easiest spot to have where it's reached out, somebody needs somebody or friends that you have now that you know are believers. Talk to them about getting together in a marriage study, whether it be one of your guys' books, whether it be something on DVD where there's a series going on, just starting somewhere or getting together on a bi-weekly basis just to hang, to chat. Because from that, as you guys know we used to do, we used to have dinners at the house, from that just hanging out, will spur those conversations and start something that you can then morph into, hey, why don't we start getting together on a weekly basis or bi-weekly basis. [Aaron] So true. I'm gonna take one of your guys' strategies. You guys had an open invitation to us to come over to eat with you guys. And not everyone is gonna, like you said, not everyone takes you up, but you said, hey, come over. And we said yes. So there was times that we went over and you didn't even know we were coming over. We just, we just texted you when we were around the corner. Was like, hey, hope dinner's ready. [Tom] You guys make it sound like that's the exception. That might've been the rule, that it was, you guys popped in a lot, and again, we loved it. It was not, we do it to people now. We'll just show up at their house with ice cream or something. [Aaron] They're like, uh-- [Tom] Yeah, their faces, they're not happy to see us. And then it ends up being a half hour, hour visit and laughing and fun and then we leave, and we'll get a, hey, thanks for stopping by, even though we showed up at the door. There's been many wives who looked at me like, what are you doing here? So yeah, it's-- [Aaron] Yeah. I think it's just the, it's not common for people 'cause we think like, oh no, you don't want to bother, you don't want to invade someone's privacy. You don't want to. But I think that's what we're supposed to do as brothers and sisters. Now, we don't want to step over boundaries and be rude and be, but like actually go into, hey, I'm in the neighborhood, would you love, I'd love to bring you a coffee. Hey, I'm grabbing a doughnut, you want one? Or a breakfast sandwich or whatever it is, just to spark that. You guys were a great example of that, opening up your home to us, giving us an invitation to be over and actually following through with it and making a meal with us and making it a night. Like we would stay at your house until two o'clock in the morning sometimes. [Woman] Sometimes we-- [Aaron] This was before kids. [Woman] Yeah. [Aaron] But yeah, I think that's a great idea. Just starting where you're at, looking around at you and saying, hey, there's a bunch of believers around me. I should not be hiding. There should be no reason that I can't go spark up a conversation and say, who are you? How can we know each other more? [Jennifer] And in this chapter of the book, I share a story of when Heidi invited me over to her house for one of the first times that we would actually spend girl time together-- [Aaron] This is a good story, yeah. [Jennifer] And I don't want to give too much away because I want them to read it, but I basically said I was busy and felt the conviction of the Lord prompt my heart to call you back, Heidi, and I had to apologize for lying and I did go over there. And so I just want to share that briefly because I think so many times, we do excuse ourselves or justify why we can't hang out or maybe we're afraid or maybe it's too uncomfortable. But I just want the people listening right now to know it is so worth it. It's worth it to get out of your comfort zone and it's worth it to build these friendships and these relationships with other believers because they will impact our lives for the better. [Aaron] Yeah, just like you guys have impacted our life. And in what you're saying, Jennifer, it makes me think of this. How many times have I said, hey, why don't you call so and so and see if they want to hang out, and you say, no, they're doing this thing today or they have this-- [Jennifer] I give other people excuses. [Aaron] And I tell them, I'm like, did they say that? And she's like, well, no. And I'm like, so they didn't tell you no? So I think sometimes when we feel that nudge, that Holy Spirit draw to reach out and to call or to connect with, and we say, no, they're probably this or they're probably that, and we say no for people before they say no. And to avoid that, to let the person say no. [Tom] To this day, that's me and Heidi. I think one of the better compliments she was given, whether it was a compliment or not, was you're a spiritual nuisance, because she doesn't let, she won't let you off the hook. [Jennifer] That's true. [Tom] She'll keep coming-- [Aaron] It's true, Heidi's got a gift. [Tom] It's truly a gift of God to her. It annoys the heck out of me sometimes. But especially when we're trying to be somewhere. [Aaron] But look at the fruit in your life because of it. [Tom] Yeah, exactly. So I have to balance that when I do get annoyed and remember how it's blessed me. But yeah, I mean, she's very good at this and doesn't, kind of tracks people down. [Aaron] So cool. [Jennifer] Awesome. Okay you guys, well, as we wrap up this awesome interview, in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Heidi] Honestly, I think a marriage after God is putting God first and not your spouse and not other people, not celebrities, not your own image, but putting God first in your marriage to bless yourself, bless your marriage, bless other people. Just really living for God and not for the world. [Tom] What does that look like? I had a conversation with our daughter two days ago. We were driving back from somewhere and she says, so you love God first and then mommy and then us. And I said, yeah, it doesn't make sense, does it. And she says, no, it doesn't. Because one time I was a stupid dad and I answered the question honestly when she said, well, who's your favorite girl? And I answered mommy immediately. To an eight year old at the time, that was a really stupid answer on my part. But I mean, it was just not smart because it broke her heart and I had to try to come back and explain that to her because she's eight, she's not supposed to completely grasp that yet-- [Aaron] I don't have faith like that yet-- [Tom] But yes, sure, and a couple of days ago in the car, I said, it doesn't make sense and here's why. It's because God wants your focus on him. But in doing that, he opens you up to everything else and gives you a greater appreciation, gives you a greater understanding and gives you a greater love for other things. And so by mommy and daddy focusing on God first, it allows us to be better husband and wife to each other and allows us to be a better mommy and daddy to you. Even though a lot of times you probably don't think we're that great, that's what it does. And I said, and it's hard for you understand, I understand that, and you won't until you are married or have kids, but in the end, people have asked, why have we had such a great marriage. And it hasn't been perfect, but it's been the best decision I ever made in my life. And for a male to say that to another male, in our day and age is, Aaron, I'm sure you see it on people's faces when you do it. They look at you like you're crazy. And yeah, it's the absolute best thing I ever did in my life, and we just, if we focus on God first, right, though Sunday mornings you don't feel like getting up and going to church and you do and you walk into a sermon that's on marriage and you get, and God just talks to you there. It's putting him first whether you want to or not on that particular day. None of us are perfect. And then it just, everything else unlocks. Churches, I know I'm rambling. Churches know this fact. If they want to grow their church, they can get the wife, that's fine, and you'll get the kids maybe. But if you get the husband, you get the entire family and that's how you grow your church number, and that's a different topic, but again, if as a husband-- [Aaron] No, what you're saying is husbands need to be leading spiritually and setting the tone in their home. That's good. [Tom] Yeah. Before you rudely cut me off, what I was saying is, if we as husbands lead, it's infectious. It doesn't always happen, but it's infectious. The wife then follows, then the kids then follow and it's a beautiful thing. And I've noticed for me, if I slip and I'm not focusing on God, my house slips. So long winded answer to your question is both of you focusing on God, it's funny how the rest just seems to, not easily sometimes, but it does, it falls into place. [Aaron] Good. Thank you, that was really good. [Jennifer] That's so good. Thank you guys so much for sharing with us today. We just want to invite everyone to take a moment to join us in prayer. Dear Lord, thank you for the gift of your body. Thank you for the gift of fellowship and friendship. May we be people who are motivated by love to reach out and be a friend to others. We pray we would have the courage and confidence to be people who welcome others in, who are transparent, who are there for others, who lift others up and who pray for others. Use our marriages to be an encouragement to other marriages. Use us as a team to bring you glory. Help us to never live in isolation. Help us to never be divided. We pray the enemy and we pray our own flesh wouldn't get it in the way of fellowship. May our desire to participate in your body increase even more. May the way we treat one another be a light and an example to the rest of the world. In Jesus' name. Amen. [Aaron] Amen. So Tom and Heidi, we love you guys. We miss you guys. [Tom] Thanks for having us. [Aaron] We need to see you soon. [Tom] Sincerely. [Woman] Miss you guys. [Aaron] And thank you so much for giving us some time today and in blessing everyone that's listening. So hey everyone that's listening, thank you so much for joining us on this sixth week of the series, and we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Rays Talk Show Episode 296: Host Ray Collazo is joined by Executive Producer Vanessa Maria Graber and Vanguardia Arizona’s James Garcia to discuss Tom Brokaw’s comments on Latinos on Meet the Press. How does Brokaw’s non-factual opinions about Latino assimilation impact immigration debate and nation’s overall understanding of U.S. Latino history? How do Latinos raise their voice in these debates with little access to corporate media channels? Starbucks’ CEO Howard Schultz is rattling Democrats who are concerned his independent candidacy would spoil a potential Trump defeat. Is Schultz a conscious moderate or an arrogant billionaire? Collazo also provides his latest analysis on the overall Presidential race in the debut of our “Stacking 20s” segment. Collazo and Graber also share their thoughts on the provocative Fyre Festival Documentary on Netflix. This episode was dedicated to Jussie Smollett and wish him a speedy recovery from a vicious attack this past weekend. We also dedicate this week to legendary R&B Singer James Ingram and bachatero Yoshkar Sarante, who both sadly passed this week. This podcast originally aired as the “What’s Next” Radio Show on WPPM 106.FM in Philadelphia. You can listen to the What’s Next Show and all the station’s content at PhillyCAM.org/listen or the TuneInApp.

Today we talk with mega agent Tom Daves from Sacramento Califonia. Tom was previously working with Keller Williams being a top world wide agent. As a team leader he runs a large successful real estate team. Tom talks to us about his decision to move to EXP, why he did, he touches on the real estate market change, equity, growth and revenue share and explains how much of a game changer his transition has been to his life and business.  Learn More about eXp Realty - Click here to watch a quick 7 Minute Intro Video. Remember our disclaimer: The materials and content discussed within this podcast are the opinions of Kevin Cottrell and/or the guests interviewed.  This information is intended as general information only for listeners of the podcast. Listeners should conduct their own due diligence and research before making any business decisions. This podcast is produced completely independently of eXp Realty and is not endorsed, funded or otherwise supported by eXp Realty directly or indirectly.     In this episode Being Sceptical about EXP EXP in Nasdaq Market Change Why Join EXP EXP as an Exit Strategy The EXP value proposition Equity and revenue share opportunities Marketplace disruption Due Diligence  Want to Learn More about eXp Realty? If you are interested in learning more about eXp, reach out to the person who introduced you to eXp or contact Tom to inquire or ask questions. Contact Tom: Call at 855 Tom Daves. Or email at Tom@TomDavesteam.com. Links: www.EXPCloud.com Takeway The pain the other great mega agents that are coming on board and as well as the alignment with amazing team members that we have. So yeah it all came together at once. Transcription KEVIN: Welcome back to another episode of EXP explained podcast I am host Kevin Cottrell joining me today from just outside of Sacramento California is Tom Davis. He is the team lead from the Tom Dave's real estate team. If you're in that Keller Williams system you undoubtedly recognize Tom's name in his team's name. They were the number one team for several years running in the Keller Williams system nationwide and Tom runs a business on the team that does multiple hundreds of millions of dollars per year. A very very large business very successful businessman in the real estate business he's been in the business for quite some time. So when I heard that Tom had made the move from Keller Williams as a large multi hundred million dollar producing team I wanted to find out his insight on why he made the decision to join the EXP. What he shared with me, I know he's going to be insightful whether you're a team lead on a smaller team or your team lead on a large team like Tom's including expansion teams. Please stay tuned for my interview with Tom Daves. KEVIN: Welcome to the show Tom. TOM: Hey Kevin. Thank you. KEVIN: Oh I'm looking forward to our conversation. Excited to share your story and talk a little bit about the big change you made over EXP. But before we do that why don't you give us a little of your background. Obviously a lot of our listeners probably know who you are but once you get a little bit of your real estate background talk a little about your business before we dive into the big change here. TOM: No I appreciate it. Absolutely. I've actually been in the business for 40 years. Kevin I started when I was 12 at a very young age and started right away and worked with traditional real estate sales and got into management and had a couple of different Remax brokerages and also worked with Oreo's with Flip's, Blackstone private equity team so pretty much seen every single economic cycle and it's been an amazing tour so far. I'm really excited that I'm now at EXP and I always say real estate you know is very very exciting and you can go from the hype of exploitation to the depths of defeat within the same 60 seconds. So it's fun it's exciting and it's all mindset right. KEVIN: Absolutely absolutely. So I think the question and certainly for me and everyone else when you announced you were leaving Keller Williams. You were the top agent worldwide for five years so this is the question I have someone who has that big business right. It's Mission critical it's important you're the top guy at Keller Williams worldwide for five years. This is an important decision. It's a strategic decision. What led up to walk us through a little bit of the process and why EXP. TOM: Okay great. So as I briefly mentioned I think my favorite saying is Wayne Gretzky you have to skate where the puck is going to be. And I've been blessed enough to position myself in most cases ahead of the curve and I head of that economic cycle whether it was traditional Oreo Flipp's you know hooked up with Blackstone private equity sold them like 600 homes in a year and a half. And the team and don't get it wrong. You know the team was amazing and Keller Williams was amazing. I was there for 18 years. I have nothing bad to say about them. But being a top agent is not always what it's cracked up to be. Candidly the margins weren't always that good. I had some great years and I noticed over the last few years that the margins were definitely shrinking and the market is starting to crown the market is starting to change as well. And there's no doubt that the market is shifting and it's technology based cloud based you know with all of the different companies that are coming online. Zillow, Redfin, Purple bricks, Amazon and they are all engaging in real estate. There's no doubt that technology is the future of our industry. And plus the consumers that consumers want and instantaneous communication at their fingertips. So that was you know one of the main reasons was the economic model and the cloud base. I literally when I made the move and changed over to the EXP realty I cut my expenses in half which was pretty amazing. And my very first month I had a 42 percent profit margin.My first month here which was pretty awesome. Pretty excited about that. Not to mention you know the stock EXP were publicly traded company as well as the revenue share and really having an exit strategy as a leader. I always feel that we need to seek out opportunities for our talent for our organization. And one of the problems that I've always had is to keep that ceiling of opportunity far greater than what anyone could achieve if you don't you're not going to be able to keep any talent. And it was becoming a little bit of a struggle for me whereas with EXP with the three types of income the commission income the stock for building are well as well as the revenue share it really truly provides an exit strategy for myself, anyone on the team and anyone that seeks to find it with literally no capital risk which is pretty cool. And the final is to have the opportunity to partner and align myself with you know Don Yokum, Randy Bird, Brent Gove, go and Gene Frederick. I mean it's just amazing that to align yourself you are the sum total of the four or five people that you hang out with. So that's pretty cool. And there is a saying that I really like is not always the assignment it's the alignment and that's quite frankly why I made that change. It wasn't easy. It was tough. But that's why I made change and that's why some of the biggest minds in the business are going after this thing. KEVIN: The question I have for you. I'm glad you brought up the margins. And one of the things I want to talk about is and I don't know if you're involved in the early MREA early 2000s when they had everybody in Austin for those mastermind's. I used to be with Andy Allen and Aaron Lancaster and they had that one of those mammoth early teams that was doing 600 transactions a year more. And what we found was exactly what is talked about which is there's a lot of sexiness to high volume and high transaction volume but the margins can be rail thin. You're subject to market conditions changes keeping talent attracting and recruiting and all that becomes a big machine. And I found most interesting your comment about instant profitability and margin increase because really if you look at it from the standpoint of the originals called the core value proposition in the MREA book about what you should be making your numbers went from where they were which undoubtedly was a lot less to you called it 40 - 42% which is sort of the lauded number that the best of the best in that model should hope for. Now one of the realities is you know I'm from Austin you know I joined Keller Williams very you know probably pretty close to when you were involved with them as well. And you know Gene was my mentor and trained me and then I was a team leader so I was around a lot of this and that was my first observation. I'm glad you brought it up because I think the marketplace is trying to figure this out right. You know there's a couple of challenges with big teams. You touched on one which is you know like you said it's not always awesome to be the biggest guy on the block with the most volume of people and expenses because the margins can get thin. But for listeners. Here's an example of an enormous operation that suddenly had 40 percent whereas before and you don't have to tell us necessarily what it was. But I would imagine you were probably down in some pretty low numbers where you had to watch things carefully and things could go south I'm assuming. TOM: Oh absolutely. And like I mentioned the margins were definitely shrinking. Yeah I was top agent with KW And you walk across stage and get your plaque but it's all about the bottom line of the profit and it did take me a few years to learn that realized that I think the first half of my career was all about success and walking across the stage and kind of all about me. But the second half is about significance. About pouring into others adding value and the bottom line right. They get significant. KEVIN: Tom the question I have is in the traditional teams that the retention of talent sometimes is hard right. They want to go do their own thing because they can only grow to a certain capacity and income level and they don't have the buckets of revenue share. They don't have stock. And so the comments that I'm getting from guests again and again are that my environment and my team from a standpoint of wealth creation for team members is different now because I can help them and mentor them. So it's not just one bucket production in their income that comes from that they can build revenue share they can have stock. Are you looking at that in your operation as being something that you're going to basically utilize for team members as well. KEVIN: Absolutely. And I think one common mistake that real estate agents do is they don't treat their business like a business and they don't think long term. So many agents and brokers are on the real estate cycle. Good month bad month. But if we begin with the end in mind and we think long term then we'll be able to build a plan and a strategy with a vision to achieve the goals that we really want to achieve to live that big life. And that's what it's all about you know whatever that is. KEVIN: And that's true. And I've heard from guest after guest and you know Jean and I and you and and Don Yoakam and others are talking to a lot of people and the ability for people to create the different income brackets that you talked about is a game changer it just doesn't exist right there's nothing wrong with the franchise systems. They just have not created an environment where that exists in other words. I've got a key team member and they want to go off and do the next big thing, normally and quite often it is go do their own thing have their own team. Well in the EXP world what we're seeing again and again and again is they start looking at the bucket of revenue share. They start looking at let me accumulate stock the way that we can accumulate stock and so it's creating a different dynamic especially for the teams that are coming into the EXP envelope where the rainmakers and the leaders who are in these teams are saying everybody's trading everything different. They're not inclined to run off and go do their own thing or even talking about it like they were they're talking about you know hey Tom tell me how to go do this. I want your help. I want to go get revenue share and I'm assuming that was part of your equation too you know to reward talent and attract people because not only are you known throughout the system that you just came from but you're well-known enough in the industry that lots of teams are going to pay attention to what they're going to hear on this interview and what they hear from you and Don Yoakum and others which is this is a game changer isn't it. TOM: Oh it really is. And EXP just totally provides the structure and the ownership opportunity that most brokerages don't. And this structure vital to maintaining a profitable real estate business and creating additional income just being in a constant state of growth. KEVIN: Which is absolutely true. So imagine rolling back to when you were observing and you were in sort of the big franchise system and you were starting to see significant movement because it has been going on for a little over a year where we had really big movement among teams including large teams. A lot of listeners are in that same position today. And I want to kind of talk a little about due diligence and key things that if you were sitting down and having coffee with them you would want them to be thinking about in other words you were where they are before now you know what you know. And as Jay Kinder says once it's seen it can't be unseen. So let's talk about some of those things from the standpoint of putting you back in your you know "I'm the number one guy worldwide at Keller Williams. I'm seeing this happen". What are the things you know now that you'd want somebody listening to this to say if I'm a team leader for a real estate team a big production team what should they be paying attention to how should they approach this from a due diligence standpoint. TOM: That's a great question. So I would take a look at the books. Take a look at the numbers. Take a look at the economic model. Talk to others that have gone before you. And you know things that to be honest I was a little bit skeptical that I mean I just thought EXP with all of these ways of creating wealth and opportunity. It just sounded too good to be true. And I just did not believe that it was sustainable. But when the Federal Trade Commission approved EXP to go on the Nasdaq and will become publicly traded. It was a game changer for me. I'm like OK well that's it. It's a done deal. So definitely a way to go. KEVIN: The other thing that's a factor obviously the up listing on NASDAQ is huge. Right. It's a credibility thing you don't get uplifted in the Nasdaq if there are holes in your business model and things are not sustainable and you can't go essentially out in the marketplace if they look at it and go oh this is never going to work long term. Right this is not the way it works in Nasdaq. So the second thing that I think you mentioned it's important to circle back to is the fact that too many it looks too good to be true. And you know my advice always is you know there's guys like you rent go Jean-Frederic, Pat Hays Scott and Tracy Lewis, me. There's a number of people that are available to you as resources Don Yokum will be another one. And you know that's why we always before we wrap up in these interviews get the best way for contact information. Most guests will say here's how you reach me and text me and I'll be happy to talk to you because they'll be other people that are in similar situation to you regardless of how they learned about the EXP they're going to be like well "I'm skeptical too. I need to talk to somebody" and that is in my mind a key due diligence step. In other words don't sit there in an envelope either hearing the words you're in a vacuum or an envelope you don't see any outside information and looking in the envelope going this doesn't make any sense to me. It looks too good to be true and you're trying to make your decision in a vacuum. You need to talk to people that have come before you like Tom said you need to have those reference calls and that's part of the process. And so part of the reason we do the I guess interviews so you can hear in the parties like Tom's words why they did what they did. But I would imagine that in this process Tom that you didn't just do this and figured out on your own you did talk to people did you. TOM: Oh I did. Absolutely. I did a deep dive. I spoke with two different business coaches both my coaches spoke with several different people many of the agents that have already come onboard with the EXP and asked them what they would do differently. You know if there were any snags or any concerns and every single one of them told me the main mistake that they made was they should have joined sooner. KEVIN: You know I mean frankly that is the number one thing that we tell people which is even if you decide it's not for you. I mean if you're a rainmaker and a team you know whether you're similar level and scope to what Tom is or maybe you have a team that's a much smaller team. The biggest mistake you could make is being skeptical of not doing something because definitively if you waited three four or five years it's going to be a different opportunity. It's kind of like the people that were at Keller Williams When you talk to Jean-Frederic and others that got in in the early 90s and got significant profit share built up and they are at the top of the tree. It's the business opportunity with a rapidly growing business. EXP is growing faster than the franchise system ever did because of the way it structured its a cloud based brokerage. So that would be my advice too which is even if you ultimately decide to not do it take Tom's advice and dig in and talk to those people do those reference calls. Figure out if it's a good fit for you. And then dip the decision but do it sooner rather than later. Because what ends up happening is more and more of your peers and your competitors in the marketplace are going to be over and they you know look up and if you waited you know God forbid three four or five years you're going to see a lot of people coming over and I'm sure that was part of what you saw. You started see what started slowly last fall. You know and then you had like Jay Kinder or Michael Reese and some others come over and then mega team after team came over in the last 12 months. I mean it's a crazy number of teams after Jay came over in November and I'm sure it will be hard to miss that in the marketplace. TOM: Like I said many of the best minds are going to after this and also I think one of the things that was happening was my pain was increasing you know as I mentioned the margins were shrinking. Just different things were happening with the growth of the team and the numbers and you know the only way for me to keep the numbers was just to you know we closed 350 transactions last year. Okay keep these margins we need to do 450. You know let's just do more volume let's just do more deals hire more staff to crank up. And so the pain I believe was getting so great that this opportunity was a no brainer for me. You know it all kind of came to a head all at once. The pain the other great mega agents that are coming on board and as well as the alignment with amazing team members that we have. So yeah it all came together at once. KEVIN: Tom here's what I would say too is because your business is so gigantic is the top guy worldwide Keller Williams. You look and act a lot like we're also seeing. And you know this because you and Yokum are talking about it is lots and lots of independent brokers whether they're small at 30 40 50 agents 25 agents or hundreds of agents are all waking up with a similar problem what you had which is margins are thin. The industry is shifting. God forbid there is a big market shift and they're caught on the wrong side of it with EXP growing around them. And I know you're seeing it and I'm just saying this for listeners benefits what Tom saw and Tom accomplished is not unlike why the independent brokers are what Gene and I see as one of the huge trends that's going to happen in the next three years is the conversion. TOM: Oh absolutely. KEVIN: So one of the things I always like to ask is Tom before I get your contact info for listeners in case they want to reach out to you is there anything that you hoped I asked you on the podcast today that you really wanted to get out about EXP and watch what's going on over here that I didn't ask. TOM: No that's great. I think we hit the high points. KEVIN: Okay fantastic. So again I always give this preface. It doesn't matter who got you interested in the EXP Tom and Jean and I or Brent Gove or anybody you hear on these interviews is there as a reference to help you make the right decision. Tom's the same way I'm going to get his contact information as far as the best way to reach him. We're going to turn right around and send you back to whoever introduced you to the EXP that's the cultural agent's point in the same direction. So don't feel sheepish if you're a team leader on a big team and this is mission critical for you as well and you feel like Tom's e-mail shoot straight with you and he's enough of a peer that you think he's the right guy to talk to, Tom how do they reach you. TOM: Great the best way to reach me is to either call me at 855 Tom Daves. Or you can e-mail me at Tom@TomDavesteam.com. KEVIN: Okay perfect. I appreciate you coming on. And thank you so much Tom. Thanks Kevin. Have a great day.    

Oktoberfest Car Show Ontario Volkswagen's 2nd Annual Oktoberfest Auto Show was a huge success!  The 2018 event brought out V-Dubs from old to new and, of course, they were driven by the owners/lovers of them. VW is known as a quality German import vehicle with a serious cult-like following. But working with Ontario VW this past year I've developed a completely new appreciation for the vehicles and its enthusiasts. They all love Volkswagen - seriously.  But there's a fun-loving division amongst the devotees.  That main division being; are you air-cooled or water-cooled? If you missed the event we'll take you back there in this on-site podcast recorded live during the event. And be sure to make next year's event at Ontario VW - great people, great cars, great time and oh yeah - great giveaways too!   ***Transcription*** Recorded October 28, 2018, in Ontario, CA The People's Car Show Jimmy: Volkswagen was always a part of that history, you couldn't talk to anybody and not mention a Volkswagen because guaranteed somebody had one. Everybody's in love with the car. They're all there to hang out, and they're having a good time.  We wanted to express our gratitude to our folks that buy Volkswagens, service Volkswagens, in love with the Volkswagen brand. Tom: Welcome to iDriveSoCal, the podcast all about mobility from the automotive capital of the United States, Southern California. Tom Smith here. And I am. We are.  You and me and a whole bunch of other people are out at Ontario Volkswagen in the Los Angeles suburb of Ontario, California for the second annual 2018 style Ontario Volkswagen Oktoberfest. And joining me is Volkswagen guru - Volkswagen resident guru - of Ontario Volkswagen, Jimmy "VW" Willhide. Jimmy Willhide, ladies and gentlemen. Tom: Obviously as you can hear by the background noise, this is a...live podcast is a complete oxymoron, right? Jimmy: Sure. Tom: Because a podcast is never live. Jimmy: Right. Tom: Although with YouTube Live and Facebook Live we probably could do a live podcast. Maybe we'll do that one of these days. Jimmy: Yeah. Tom: In this case, we are outside. You can hear the music in the background, and we are here at the Oktoberfest auto show which Mr. Willhide is one of the key organizers of. Jimmy: Yes. Yeah, we try to set up a really nice show for everybody to come out and enjoy the day, see some really cool cars from different generations and have some food and drinks and hang out and talk to new and interesting people and their cars. Volkswagen Beetle Tom: And we've been doing quite a bit of that, and actually we've already started talking about the actual event that we're here for. So, I think we just dive into that. Jimmy: Sure. Tom: We're also going to talk about the history of the Volkswagen Beetle. Jimmy: Yes. Tom: Because really everything, it all started with the Beetle. Right? Jimmy: Yeah, it pretty much started with the Beetle for the U.S. You had a five [inaudible 00:02:05] two-door car that everybody could afford. Tom: But the Beetle started as the "people's car" in what year was it? [crosstalk 00:02:17] Jimmy: Was it 1934? That would be right after World War II? Tom: And that was the first car that Volkswagen, right? That was it. Jimmy: Yeah, that was the first car I believe introduced to the U.S. Tom: But that was the first car they made. Jimmy: Yeah. Tom: Right? Jimmy: Yeah. Tom: And then, when did it come to the U.S.? Jimmy: I believe it was 1934? Or no. Tom: No. Jimmy: It would be 1950? Tom: Okay. Jimmy: 1950. Tom: So at any right, the point is there's been a whole bunch of generations of Beetles, right? Jimmy: Yeah. Tom: The Beetles started the whole thing. Jimmy: There's so many different generations of Beetles I don't know where to start. I'm sure there's more that we don't even know about.

Reserve you spot today for the Totally Cider Tour to the UK! We will be visiting Tom Oliver an award winning cidermaker and this week's guest on Cider Chat. This cider tour begins in Bristol, UK on April 25, 2018, then after that evening's dinner at The Stable for the "Ultimate Cider" dinner we head out to tour around Somerset and then Herefordshire through May 2nd. Sign up for a trip of a lifetime and come along with Ria, the host of Cider Chat and fellow cider travels. This week's chat was recorded during Tom's presentation at CiderDays 2017. Making Perry tips from Tom No surprise that Tom says you are reliant upon the fruit Don’t work with culinary pears or apples All about minimum intervention Ferments with wild yeast - does not pitch yeast. Doesn’t use sulfite prior to fermentation No yeast nutrient Use a little bit of SO2 - about 80 ppm Tom’s favorite Pear varieties for making Perry, hopefully from old trees Moorcroft Thorn Blakeney Red Hendre Huffcap Winnal’s Longdon More pears mentions in this chat: Coppy Rock Gin Oldfield Christmas Pear Cypress Pear Ferret Custard Cows slip Dead Boy Go to this UK link to find out more about Perry Pears The Challenge of Perry Pears: They all ripen at different times They don’t come off the tree They engage in bletting If the pear is brown in side is it bad or rotten - no it is not - it is fermenting. Blet - means overripe pear...it is fermenting Rot - is decomposing. And Tom does use pears that are bletting from the inside out - "It is how far you will let it go. (blet). Tom washes the pears beforehand and referenced Mike Beck and how he uses saline solution to wash the pears in because pears sink, unlike apples that float. Maceration - leaving the pears to break down the sugars before you press them Tom does at least 24 hours to 48 hours for a pressing. Contact for Oliver's Cider and Perry Ask for the following 9 #ciderGoingUP Campaign sponsors - By supporting these cider makers, you in turn help Cider Chat Kurant Cider - Pennsylvania : listen to Joe Getz on episode 14 Big Apple Hard Cider - NYC : listen to Danielle von Scheiner on episode 35 Oliver’s Cider and Perry - Herefordshire/UK ; listen to Tom Oliver on episode 29 Santa Cruz Cider Company - California : listen to Nicole Todd on episode 60 The Cider Project aka EthicCider- California Albermale CiderWorks : listen to Chuck Shelton on episode 56 Cider Summit : listen to Alan Shapiro founder of this cider fest on episode 75. Ramborn Cider Co. Luxembourg. Big Fish Cider Co. Virginia Please Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving! Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts. Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio and where ever you love to listen to podcasts. Follow on twitter @ciderchat

Nesta edição do podcast Mais Esquerda, publicamos a intervenção de Mário Tomé no debate sobre os 100 anos da Revolução de Outubro, organizado em parceria entre a Cultra - Cooperativa Culturas do Trabalho e o Espaço Mob.

Marie: „Mám problém. Moje auto je už moc staré, občas nefunguje dobře.“ Tomáš: „No, tak si kup nové!“ M: „Jo, to bych měla. A kde?“ T: „Kde? A co v autobazaru?“...

Faaaala pautaiada! Estamos de volta, e desta vez para um dos podcasts mais esperados por nossos ouvintes (e por nós também), entrevistamos o Freakazoid, o Kronk, o Superman, o Mickey, o Buzz... [[ This is a content summary only. Visit my website for full links, other content, and more! ]]