Podcasts about tom you

BOSSes Anne Ganguza and Tom Dheere examine the state of the voiceover industry a few months into 2025. They discuss the direct impact of political and economic events on booking trends and content. The conversation explores how corporate messaging is adapting to cultural and policy changes, the ongoing role of authenticity, and the evolving, perhaps less threatening, landscape of AI. Ultimately, they offer a message of adaptation, education, and resilience for voice actors navigating the current climate.   00:03 - Anne (Host) Hey bosses, are you new to voiceover and not sure where to start? Join the VOPeeps VI Peeps membership and get access to over 350 hours of pre-recorded classes, a 15% discount on all VOPeeps, guest workshops and free monthly workouts. This membership is perfect for those wanting to get started in the industry. Find out more at vopeeps.com. Slash join dash now.  00:32 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. And successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today Rock your business like a boss a VO boss.  00:54 - Anne (Host) Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguza. Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss Podcast and the Real Boss Series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguza, and I'm here with the one and only Mr Tom Dheere. Hello, hello, hello, hi, tom. Oh goodness, tom, we're a few months into 2025, and it's been quite a year so far, wouldn't you say I would say yes, it has.  01:13 Lots of disruption going on in the world in so many ways I would say economically, socially, I mean. It's a new administration and I know that we spoke earlier about setting your goals and starting off on the right foot for 2025 and finding out who you are. Now that we're a few months in, I think we should go back and readdress what's happening. What's going on? How are you feeling about the state of things? Let's maybe open it up with the state of our industry, the voiceover industry. How are you feeling the state of voiceover is a few months into 2025?  01:49 - Tom What's interesting about it, Anne, is that your emotional state when you are watching the news or doom scrolling on social media is going to make you feel a certain way about how everything is going and, depending on your political inclination, you may think everything is going wonderfully or you may think everything is going terribly.  02:12 But then there's that pesky little thing called reality, which is the reality of how many auditions am I getting, how often am I booking, how much money am I making? Where are those voiceover bookings coming from? And, based on what's going on in the world, how much of that is directly or indirectly affecting our individual voiceover businesses?  02:39 - Anne (Host) Absolutely, and because we're service-based right. It affects us very much. Right, it affects us because companies are hiring us to, for the most part, entertain or sell. Right, and, depending on how the companies are feeling and companies are reacting to the issues that are going on in the world today, may have a direct impact on our business.  03:01 - Tom Yeah, so just as a point of reference, let's look at 2024. Our business? Yeah, so just as a point of reference, let's look at 2024. One of the major things that happened that had a huge impact on voiceover work was the presidential election, because, distressingly late in 2024, we weren't sure who was running for president on either side of the aisle, much less who their running mates were. That had a massive effect on corporations when it came to advertising budgets and what the content of the advertising would be. So last summer, 2024, july August there was a huge dip in voiceover work across the board because companies didn't know where to put their money.  03:46 - Anne (Host) Except in political maybe.  03:47 - Tom  Except in political.  03:48 And then when September, October, hit, the political campaigns all went crazy and a lot of the advertising got stopped up because so much ad space was being taken up by political advertising.  04:02 There was a noticeable drop in commercials for television and radio because all the political ad buys were taking up all the real estate. So that is one pretty clear, direct example about how what's going on in the real world affected what was going on in the voiceover industry. So let's look at spring of 2025 of what's going on right now is since there's virtually no political ads, as in campaign ads. I mean, there's a smattering of them here and there and a smattering of issue ads, but I didn't notice any more than there usually has been, which means the void that the political ads left got immediately taken up by commercials, left got immediately taken up by commercials. So there seems to be as much work as there was at any given time in recent voiceover history. I agree with you there. But the question is, what is the content and context of the ads and other voiceover genres and what are the casting demands and what are the performance demands for?  05:09 - Anne (Host)  Now also, we're thinking, I think, right now, commercial broadcast style voiceover. When we think about that, I agree with you that, yes, there's as much work, I think, as there ever has been. However, it's the content that might be changing and the context. You're absolutely right, but also there might be in terms of industrial content, like the industries that are advertising, the industries that are hiring voice talent that may or may not be broadcast. Maybe we're talking e-learning, we're talking corporate, we're talking all the different non-broadcast style voiceover. I think, in that realm where I'm seeing I'm not seeing a drop necessarily, but I'm seeing companies looking very carefully at what they're saying and what they want their brand message to be.  05:54 - Tom Yes.  05:54 - Anne (Host) And that is very key for somebody like myself if I produce demos, to make sure that the content is reflective of the culture and the society of the times.  06:06 - Tom Yes, culture definitely has an influence on advertising broadcast and it also has an influence on internal content, e-learning content, corporate industrial content. Actually, I just realized last year I had narrated an app for a large governmental organization, let's just say, and it was about harassment in the workplace and it was a big project and I did it all and the client was thrilled and I got paid and everything was great. Just a few days ago, the client wrote me and said hey, as a result of all of these executive orders that have been stripping away DEI policies and verbiage, I had to record a decent chunk of it all over again with the new policies and whatever we'll call it, awareness of it in mind.  07:01 - Anne (Host) Yeah, that's the biggest thing that I am seeing and, again, we're not here to be political. However, the two of us need to take a realistic look as to okay, so what are companies having to do to maybe adhere to policies? Because companies that maybe depended on support from the government may have to rewrite some policies. They may have to rethink how they're speaking, and that directly impacts a lot of the corporate work that I've done and also corporate training as well I do. The majority of my work in the e-learning aspect is through corporate.  07:34 I do some educational, which I think that also can be touched, but not in such a direct manner Like, let's say, dei or I'm just trying to think like, what other types of topics and support and safety and environmental. Let's think about environmental changes. Right Before, in a lot of corporate, there was a lot of talk about sustainability, talk about climate change. There was a lot of talk about sustainability, talk about climate change. Companies wanted their audiences to hear that they were supporting these things, because that's what mattered to the majority of people, that they wanted to be on board with them. Now, is that a thing when we're talking about alternative energy right, alternate energy are we going to now be talking about drilling and fracking versus, you know, solar power or those types of things.  08:18 - Tom  Yeah, absolutely, and top-down policies are going to have a trickle-down effect, but also, as in if federal laws are changing or being enacted or being repealed, that's going to have a big effect on a lot of the policies of the companies, because they have to be compliant with local, state and federal law to be able to run their business legally and effectively. So, yeah, it will definitely have a top-down effect. The other thing is economic.  08:47 - Anne (Host) Yes, we always have to look at the economics.  08:49 - Tom You always have to look at the economics of it, and we're still seeing what the full effect of all of these tariffs are going to be on multiple countries, which is going to the majority of economics say, regardless of your political bent, that this is going to create an increase in prices of many, many items. Or some items just may not be available in the United States to be imported and there's some based on reciprocal tariffs. There may be items that the United States manufacturers that cannot be exported.  09:23 - Anne (Host) Well, absolutely, and in terms of hiring, and in terms of hiring. In terms of hiring. I do know that I heard from one of my students, canadian students, that is it favorable now to be an American voicing a Canadian brand at this point?  09:38 Or vice versa, or vice versa, and so we have to think about that or any global brand. So it's interesting to really see. I think a lot of us are so in our studio bubbles that we forget how this impacts the industry, and it impacts our jobs. It can directly affect our jobs, and so it's something that we need to keep our eyes open to. And even though I know a lot of people are like I'm off social media or I you know, it's just sometimes it's difficult for people to watch the news I do think that we have to keep ourselves in touch enough to understand where the trends are going and what things are happening if we want to keep our businesses afloat. And now I guess the next question, Tom, is are we doom-scrolling our voiceover industry at this point? I mean?  10:27 - Tom How do you feel about it? There's a lot of hysteria and confusion and frustration and fear and anger on every social media platform that I have seen. Some of it is a healthy discourse, some of it is fear and hate-mongering. Some of it is a healthy discourse. Some of it is fear and hate mongering. Some of it is a cry for desperation and comfort and commiseration. It's a combination of all of those things.  10:44 So the question is do you shut off all of your social media and go take a walk? Sometimes that's a very, very good idea. But, just exactly to your point, anne, we need to keep an eye on what's going on. Also, all of the social media groups that we're on, they're national or international, so we can keep an eye on what's going on in other parts of the country and other parts of the industry and how it may or may not affect us. Like, for example, I just saw recently a social media post Somebody was talking about well, what happens if there's a recession? How is that going to affect the voiceover industry? Now, I don't know if you remember, but 2008, 2009, the great recession oh, I do. I did not remember and I went back and I looked at my numbers. I didn't notice any effect, noticeable effect, on it.  11:29 When COVID hit March of 2020, there was a noticeable dip, but then April it went right back up and 2020 was a pretty good year for me. But paying attention to things like that and you know, instead of being in your own little bubble, about being terrified about everything, but when you're actually doing your own research off of social media and looking for intelligent discourse on social media to find actual facts, and listening to people who've been around the block a few times, like you or I, who was like, yeah, no, the recession was not a big deal and oh, yeah, covid, things bounced back really quickly and, like I said, last year's, well, the strikes, the SAG-AFTRA strikes, the interactive strike, which is still ongoing, unfortunately, but hopefully they'll be able to fight for their rights and protect all of us. When it comes to AI and other bad practices, the voiceover industry seems to be relatively pliant and relatively resilient. Yes, because, no matter what, people are still trying to sell things. People are still trying to buy things.  12:28 I love that. You said that People still need to teach things. You know what I mean.  12:31 - Anne (Host) I mean, we are a company ourselves, right, we want to stay afloat.  12:34 We're right now looking at and if you aren't, you need to be right Always, you need to be looking at how are you going to stay afloat, how is your business going to continue to show progress, move forward, be successful?  12:46 And it just basically comes down to we're evolving. We're evolving with the times, right, and I think that I agree with you wholeheartedly that I don't think there's going to be any less of a demand for voiceover because, as you mentioned, companies still want to exist, they still want to sell a product, and so part of that sell is including a voice to speak the brand and to communicate that sell to others. And so I don't think it's doom scrolling, but I do believe that we need to educate ourselves on what the trends are, and not just the trends on the style of voiceover, although I think that it's good to understand, like, what's out there? How is that message being told? I always maintain that the best performance trend, the best voiceover performance trend to follow, is just be an actor, be a damn actor, right, because if you're an actor, you evolve, you can evolve and change, just like you need to do with your business.  13:44 And I think that you kind of touched on synthetic voices and AI Again, if we were to talk about how do you feel that that's affecting the industry these days? I can tell you, in my opinion, right now, I think that things are working themselves out, hopefully on a more positive note, and I don't think that the fascination is there for me. I'm not seeing the fascination there with voiceover jobs being stolen by AI. I believe that more of the focus needs to be on let's just protect our voices so that they're not being used without our permission and being developed into a synthetic voice. Or, if we have a synthetic voice, make sure that we're getting compensated for it. What are your thoughts?  14:22 - Tom  I generally agree, because everyone who decided that AI is the devil and decided not to get involved in any level of critical thinking or investigating about it, they have not changed their minds. The people that jumped in with both feet are probably still jumping in with both feet. What I think to your point you're saying is that everybody that wanted to give it a sniff, that wanted to try it out, test the water, has done it not just once, but maybe twice, because ChatGPT rolled out November 2022 and now we're in mid 2025. So I think there's been like At least from my observation, there's been like two rounds of companies giving AI a try. The first one was just to, oh, let's see what this is all about.  15:03 And then some were like, oh, this is great, this is perfect. Others are like, no, this is awful. And then there's others who, a year or so later, is like you know what? It's probably gotten two years better. Let's give it another try. And then same thing happens. Some thought, oh, okay, it's good enough now, or it's not good enough now, or making whatever decision. But yeah, the fervor from the consumer end, I think, has settled.  15:26 I think so too, and I think the terror from the voiceover end I think for the most part is settled. There's still questions about it.  15:33 - Anne (Host) Sure, and we've got great organizations fighting for us as well. Nava has been doing a phenomenal job in that regard, and if you're a business and you're not using AI in some capacity to manage your data, you're missing out. You're missing out on the boat, and we did talk about that previously in an episode, tom, you and I. It's just getting better and better at that, but it's not necessarily getting better at speaking your voice synthetically. But data management, I think, is just leaps and bounds and it's integrated in a lot of the products we're using and you may not even know it. It's kind of like.  16:07 I think I mentioned this to you before Back in the day I installed voice over IP phone systems when they first came out and people just said oh my God, they sucked, They'll never work, They'll never last, and ultimately, that's what we do today. I mean, it's all voice over IP. Everything that we're doing is we're communicating, Our phone lines are over data internet lines and it's just that's what's happening. Now. We have voice over IP and we don't even know it. It's seamless. So I believe that the AI data management is being built in seamlessly into things that we use like Google or I think you're using Google Workspace.  16:36 - Tom  I am using Google Workspace and Google Gemini is my favorite AI, google Gemini.  16:39 - Anne (Host) I have ChatGPT. I have a couple other products that do some automated things for me that are under the ChatGPT, and I continually look for tools that can help me to run my business more efficiently. So I don't think that in the voice realm of things. Oh my God. I just said a company.  16:54 - Tom  Naughty, naughty.  16:54 - Anne (Host) I didn't even know In the voiceover world. I don't know if synthetic voices are quite the terror and the scare that they were in the last couple of years.  17:03 - Tom  I still think the same thing is exactly what you and Andy said on that wonderful narratorlife interview that you did, which you said garbage in, garbage out. Good actors are going to make good AIs, bad actors are going to make bad AI are going to make bad AI. And the relevance gap I still think is growing, of people that are lacking in talent or training storytelling training, that are trying to enter the world of voiceover, are just not going to be able to get in. So I think that still stands.  17:28 - Anne (Host) And everybody I talk to we're talking about. Like anything today, if you want to capture someone's attention, right, marketing, wise, right it's all about authenticity. It's all about authenticity. It's all about give the human aspect to you. Even when I write a newsletter, it's like give somebody that vulnerable part of yourself that talks directly to them and doesn't just try to sell them or doesn't just try to, like, promote things. And give that authenticity. And I really believe that, as humans, that's who we are and that's what we have and that is just our strength. And when we are performing voiceover and we are voice actors, I think the more that we can be authentic in whatever genre we are voicing, the better off we are and the more successful we will be.  18:08 - Tom I agree. I had another thought about. Something that we were talking about a little earlier is that unemployment seems to be rising because of all of these federal layoffs.  18:19 Layoffs, yeah, and then as a result of tariffs.  18:20 if prices are going up, they have to maintain profit margins, so sometimes they need to cut labor. So what's been interesting in voiceover is that, as a result of AI, there has been less of the entry-level, lowest budget voiceover work, which means there's less opportunities for people who are entering the voiceover industry, and that may mean some people are not able to have a sustainable voiceover business model, so they're leaving the voiceover industry. However, if employment does keep going up the way that it does, does that mean more people are going to come back who want?  18:55 - Anne (Host) to give voiceover a shot. Yeah, exactly that was my experience when COVID happened.  19:01 And people, how many of my coaching business, I mean I had like tripled business with people who were using the time to learn voiceover and to get into voiceover and to utilize their voice for something good. I mean, I think that's still like. The desire of most people that get into this industry is they want to use their voice to do something good and, of course, make some money. Sure, that's always a key element to be successful in voiceover business. But what other aspects, tom, have we not covered here in this few months, now that we're in 2025? We've talked about, I mean, really, how dependent our industry is on the economy and the message that is out there, the brand that is out there.  19:50 - Tom Right. Yeah, it's dependent and it's independent at the same time, when we are getting into what seems to be a very interesting year on a sociological, social, cultural, political, economic level, what can we as voice actors do? So what should us bosses do? It's the same answer all the time, anne Right.  20:11 - Anne (Host) What do we do? Keep training, keep learning.  20:13 - Tom Keep growing, keep marketing, keep marketing. Keep following industry trends. Continue to have conversations with fellow voice actors. Continue to have conversations with your current and potential clients. Pay attention to what's going on on social media, but don't get sucked in by it. But pay attention, learn, grow, adapt, evolve and educate Educate yourself and educate each other.  20:33 - Anne (Host) Educate, adapt, evolve. I love that. Educate, adapt, evolve. I think that really should be our mantra for this year Educate, adapt, evolve and I think everything will be absolutely fine in this voiceover industry. And also just one thing that I want to make mention is that during those lean times where you may not be finding work or work slows down, it's always important to kind of go back and listen to other voiceover podcast episodes that I've had with Tom, of course, about your business and how to build your business and be successful, as well, as I've had a money series with Daniel Fambul, which talks about the fact that if times are lean for me or I'm considering investing more in my business, which would mean maybe I'm going to get coaching, maybe I'm going to get a new demo, maybe I'm going to get a new website which, by the way, I've done all those things and I've had to make a lot of investments this year, and so it's important to have the mindset right, the mindset of being willing to invest.  21:32 I think that's important being willing to invest in this career If you love this career and this is what you want to do and you want to grow, having the mindset of being willing to invest, and I, right now, in my own business, I've transitioned over to a new website, I'm doing a lot of new things that are on the scary side of things for me. I mean, I think if you're not scared every day, you're not taking a risk every day. And, by the way, this risk is not just a risk performance-wise or strategy-wise, it is a risk financially-wise, because I'm investing in a part of my business that I want to grow, and so it's not easy and it's scary, but it's something that I believe every boss needs to really take a look at and be willing to take a little bit of a risk. Take a look at and be willing to take a little bit of a risk, and I'm thankful that and, tom, we've talked about this I'm thankful that I have a little bit of a nest egg that I can make these investments yeah.  22:26 - Tom So my new mantra will now be if you're not taking risks, you're not trying, and if you're not scared you're not trying hard enough.  22:33 - Anne (Host) Oh, I like that a lot. Yeah, Tom. So I admit that I'm scared. Are you scared? Are you scared every?  22:39 - Tom  day. Am I conscious? Yes, of course I'm scared.  22:41 - Anne (Host) Yeah, what things scare you? I'm just curious what things scare you in running your business?  22:46 - Tom Well, I mean just as a basic normal, semi-normal neurotic human. I still have my imposter syndrome. I hear you I still have my FOMO.  22:55 I'm still afraid that 30 years later, that clients are just going to be like well we don't just like his face anymore and they're just not going to book me and they come back. They all come back, as in you know, most of them come back for all good reasons and other people don't come back for whatever other reason. 99% of the time has absolutely nothing to do with me. But my biggest fear is the fear of being irrelevant, and I've had a couple of times in my voiceover career where I, as a result of very poor business decision-making, I made myself less relevant.  23:28 The jumping off of Voice123 in 2013 and then being off it for seven years made me less relevant as a voice actor because I wasn't paying attention to what was going on in the industry. I was up my own you-know-what about it and making decisions based on fear, ego, insecurity and arrogance and ignorance.  23:47 - Anne (Host) Oh, my God, I just love that. You just you were so authentic with that. That's really wonderful. I mean, I love that you're sharing that with us because that's something that I think everybody can take and really learn from myself included taking these risks that have not always worked out and, yeah, a lot of it is because I was stubborn. I have a little bit of a stubborn streak. I'll admit to you that mine would be stubborn in feeling like what I was doing was the way and there was not another way to do.  24:18 It was the way and there was not another way to do it. And that stubbornness and not allowing myself to open my eyes, especially when because I hire a team of people right, and trying to do everything myself, thinking I was the only person that could do it, being that kind of a person, that control freak which I am that held me back. It was scary to me. I was scared that if I didn't control it myself, that I would lose control and that I wouldn't be able to grow the business. But quite the opposite happened. After all, that, when I allowed myself to be open to collaborating and working with others and it's one of the reasons why I love to collaborate with you, tom, because there's so much power in collaboration together and that is one of the basis is for when you want to run a strong business. I'll never forget Gary Vaynerchuk said hire people who are better than you to do those things and don't be afraid of that. Don't be scared of that and treat them right, because that's going to help you all grow and move forward.  25:07 - Tom Absolutely Surround yourself with smart people who disagree with you is another mantra that I've heard over the years, and it's really really true.  25:14 - Anne (Host) Yeah, yeah, I love it, tom. Thank you so much. I think that last nugget was the best of all out of this episode. I really love talking with you in these podcasts, so thanks again. I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You too can connect and network like real bosses. You can find out more at IPDTL.com. Bosses have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye.  25:41 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voboss.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.   

Patrick covers topics like the sacramental rules around confession and anointing during emergencies, the meaning of incorruptible saints such as Carlo Acutis, and how God's providence fits with human free will and the effects of prayer. Patrick also shares insights on Church history, explains the significance of blessed objects, and discusses how priests should present themselves in public. For anyone seeking clarity on Catholic teaching or thoughtful answers to life’s big questions, Patrick delivers practical guidance and encouragement for your faith journey. Saul (email) - In the case of an emergency, such as war where no Catholic priest is available to hear confession and give a solution to people, would an Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist or some other Christian pastor, one who believes in the Holy Trinity, be able to give the anointing of the sick, hear confession and give absolution? (00:35) Mary - Is Carlo Acutis body incorruptible? (08:04) Patrick in Mission Viejo, CA - Re: Assassination of Lincoln - Did Lincoln found and protect all of the missions from the southern border in California? (11:52) Tom - You spoke to a woman about free will. How much does God intercede in our lives at any time? (18:56) Warner - The Amish community in Central Wisconsin still store ice during the winter to stalk up for the summer (29:02) Albert - When people have yard sales, and they are giving away their belongings that are blessed, do those blessings go to whoever purchased the item or they stay with the original family? (31:41) Islamic terrorists in Kashmir attacked tourists yesterday, slaughtering 26. (37:19) Ed - Let's say I want to confess something, but I say my confession to a person so he can take it to a priest. Like using an intermediary. Is this allowed? (38:45) Will - Dispensation from a bishop may be given to a mixed couple (even if one is not Catholic). Is there like a document with the wedding certificate that gives that permission? (39:42) Henry - Just became a Catholic this past Easter vigil. I am Mexican American, and in my culture we call our sponsors Madrina/Padrino. Can I call my sponsor “godmother” here in the US? (43:15) Steve - What is the proper attire for a parish priest in general? (46:14)

On my visit to Burundi this year, I sat with Dan Brose of Migoti Coffee. Dan and his partner Poncien built this station some years ago, and it all didn't go exactly as planned. With some bumps along the way, this main station in Mutambu district is becoming a hub, with a new station starting in Kimono and another planned for next year. But what I really appreciate is Dan's deep experience in Burundi, and how his background in chemical engineering and other work informs the Migoti approach to coffee. And though I find Dan eloquent and with vast experience, the words you see him repeat over and over are teamwork, partnership and community. Taking a look at Migoti's instagram and you will scroll a long time before you find a picture of Dan. The emphasis is on the work, on the group effort, and the goal of building a sustainable business that builds up the local community. With Migoti these are not a heap of buzzwords … they are how they operate. It's a real pleasure to speak with Dan at the main station, and you will hear birds, people picking coffee in the background, and later the rush of water as they start the flow through the coffee washing channels. This is not a slick recording in any sense! In fact there are zero edits after the first minute. I encourage you to stay with this conversation because I feel the best stuff comes at the end!  -Tom You can see all our podcast episodes listed on our Coffee Library page.

In today's program, Tom welcomes author Ray Yungen to discuss the impact of the New Age movement on today's evangelical church. Now, along with his guest, here's TBC executive director, Tom McMahonTom: Thanks, Gary. My guest for today's program and, the Lord willing, next week as well is Ray Yungen. Ray is the author of - in my opinion and others' that I know - he's the author of some very valuable books regarding biblical discernment - in particular, adverse teachings and practices that have infected Christianity in our day.Ray, welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7!Ray: Thank you, Tom. I'm glad to be here.Tom: You know, two of Ray's books that I want to discuss are A Time of Departing and For Many Shall Come in My Name. Now, you also have another book out, Ray, coming out soon, and hopefully it will be available by the time this program is aired or released or whatever, whatever the cyber term - cyber space term is. Anyway, we have it in stock - hopefully we'll have it in stock when you're hearing this program. We'll talk about that book in more detail next week.Ray, let's start with how you got started writing the books that you have.

The stage is set, the mic is on, and the cue is yours. In this episode, stand-up comic and voice actor Tom Sawyer shares his golden nuggets for aspiring voice talents hoping to benefit from the power of comedy. From the importance of having fun in the booth to taking a well-deserved break, and the power of belief in oneself, Tom is a reservoir of invaluable insights. We talk about standing out in a sea of talents, catching the ears of the right casting person, and the art of continuous learning. But remember, feedback is the breakfast of champions, and as Tom says, it's all about enhancing your performance. Get ready, it's showtime! About Tom   Tom Sawyer ran lengendary San Francisco comedy club, Cobb's for over 30 years. After stepping away from the comedy business, Tom was encouraged to explore voice acting by after famed comedian and voice actor Carlos Alazraqui (Rocco's Modern World, the Taco Bell Chihuahua) who knew Tom was an excellent celebrity impersonator. Tom signed with JE Talent in San Francisco and Aperture Talent in Los Angeles in 2017, and the rest is history. https://kitcaster.com/tom-sawyer/ 0:00:01 - Announcer It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss, a V-O boss. Now let's welcome your host, Ann Gangusa.  0:00:20 - Anne Hey everyone, welcome to the V-O Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza and today I am super excited to be here with very special guest actor, comedian, entrepreneur oh my God, the list goes on Tom Sawyer. Tom ran the legendary San Francisco Comedy Club Cubs for over 30 years booking legendary greats, and this list just goes on and on, but I'll give you just a few of them Jerry Seinfeld, dana Carvey, Bob Saget, Jim Carrey, Rita Rudner, Joe Rogan, Sarah Silverman and the list just goes on. He stayed on as a booker until 2012 and then ultimately stepped away from the comedy business. After that, he was encouraged to explore voice acting by famed comedian and voice actor Carlos Ellsrocki, a good friend of his. He signed on with JE Talent in San Francisco and Aperture Talent in LA in 2017, and the rest, they say, is history.  But boy, we've got a lot of history I'd like to talk to you about, tom. Thank you so much for joining us and welcome. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. So, gosh, there's so many things I want to start with. I mean the first tell. You have such a large history of comedy, so, of course, I'm sure a very common question you get asked is were you a funny kid, or have you always loved comedy? What is it that drew you to comedy?  0:01:44 - Tom Well, yeah, I was the kid in the back of the class making all the other kids laugh, so that was where I started and I always did impressions. So when I was a kid I was doing Don Adams from Get Smart and Ed Sullivan and Richard Nixon and you know, it's probably a little weird seeing an eight-year-old doing Richard Nixon but that's what I was doing. When I was very young I realized I could do voices and never stopped and that's what kind of led me to voiceover when I got out of the comedy club business.  0:02:15 - Anne But boy, there was a long history of being in the comedy business. I label you as entrepreneur 20 times over because I think just following that passion of yours and then ultimately opening up a club that literally was just famed and just housing some of the comedy greats. Tell me a little bit about that history. I mean, that is just so, so fun and impressive.  0:02:36 - Tom Yeah, actually, I went to San Francisco to become a stand-up comic and there were all these clubs, the Punchline and the Holy City Zoo and the other cafe. They were very packed all the time and getting stage time there was next to impossible. Or you'd get on at one o'clock in the morning in front of a very tired, very small, very drunk audience. And then there was this little.  0:02:55 - Anne Sometimes that helps, I'm not sure Mostly doesn't, oh okay.  0:03:00 - Tom But there was this little club in the Marina District in San Francisco called Cobb's Pub and they were trying to do comedy there and there was no audience, but there was stage time. You could get on stage there. In fact, sometimes you couldn't get off stage because there was no one there to take over, so you had to stretch, stretch and that was terrifying sometimes. Especially if you're the third or fourth comic going, hey, where are you from? And the audience goes we all know where we're from, so stop asking.  0:03:29 - Anne That's so funny. I just wanted to say that a lot of my actor friends I feel like being on that comedy stage is like a rite of passage almost, and it's probably I would think one of the toughest things to do is to stand on stage like that and try to make people laugh. I mean, that's just to me it's comedy without a net. Yeah, exactly.  0:03:48 - Tom And the thing is it's like you're stuck there, literally. You have an allotted time that you have to perform and they give you 10 minutes. You have to do 10 minutes, doesn't matter if it's horrible right from the word jump, you're on stage for those 10 minutes. That's the time you have to do and that's one of the things you learn right away is like if you get on stage early.  you're not going to get back on stage. So you have to go through the rite of passage of bombing, and I've seen comics bomb from Paula Poundstone, kevin Meany, kevin Nealon, the list goes on and on. Every comic has bombed. But even later on you get in front of an audience that just doesn't dig you.  0:04:27 - Anne And again, nowhere to go. You can't run off the stage.  0:04:31 - Tom You're mean, I get that.  0:04:38 - Anne And it's funny because I literally I just went to a comedy club a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking about that, like what do you do? I mean, they are there until the next comedian is called on stage. And it feels interesting as being a part of the audience, because a lot of times I think, as the audience, you are part of maybe not part of the act, but it's very interactive, it's very back and forth and engaging because, of course, you're trying to make us laugh.  0:05:02 - Tom Yeah, you have to communicate to the audience without really engaging the audience, because you're the boss on stage, you're kind of like the crowd master and you're crowd control and entertainment at the same time. And because comedy, some people feel like, oh, I'm going to be as funny as the comic.  0:05:22 - Anne And that's when things get really sideways.  0:05:24 - Tom You're there to be entertained. Sit back, relax and leave the talking or the driving to the person with the microphone.  So you got some stage time on Cobbs and and then I realized that I just kept seeing these shows that weren't very good. The guy who was booking the club at the time wasn't doing a great job, and I was a big fan of stand up as well. So I started thinking about what I would do instead, and then I started telling the owner at the time first owner of Cobbs. I was telling him you know, here's what I would do differently, and then I could tell him at the beginning of the show how the show was going to fail. And then he was started realizing that everything I was saying was happening and he went what do I get to lose? We're doing horrible business. And so he gave me the job of booking and from there I started getting the people I really, really like to perform and it started going great and we went from being like about 20% capacity to 90% capacity in about a year.  0:06:23 - Anne So let me ask you a question that, to me, is very interesting how do you get, at the time, the talents that you booked? I mean, they were big names. Were they big names then? And how did you get them to book? I mean, that's a skill, right? It's something that we do in our businesses every day, right? We've got to try to get clients to like us and to work with us. So how did you do that? Did you have a secret?  0:06:42 - Tom Yeah, my secret was I paid really well.  0:06:45 - Anne Okay, okay, that's a good piece.  0:06:48 - Tom My biggest competition, which was twice the size of our club. We were out paying that Because we decided that the most important thing was getting butts in the chairs and the only way to do that was having acts that actually brought an audience. So the only way to do that was to offer these guys more of an opportunity to make more money. So we would give them a percentage of the door and say, hey, the more people come to see you, the more you're gonna make. And because of that we had people that would call up and go, hey, I'm gonna be on the Tonight Show in six weeks with Johnny Carson, do you have anything open? And I would move stuff around and get them in there and then I would get a Tonight Show plug or a Letterman plug or Arsenio Hall. At the time and that was kind of my thing was I'm gonna pay everybody. Really well, so everybody could. Percentage of the door.  In the early days before all the big agencies came in, sure, and remember this was at a time where there were just like a couple agencies doing personal appearances for comedians. Comedians were pretty much on their own. They were doing their business themselves. So if I wanted Bob Sagan, I'd call Bob Sagan, so I get his number from another comic and everybody was kind of looking for each other and I would bring one comic in. They'd go, hey, you should book these guys. And I go, okay, great, and call them up. And they'd go, right, when can you give them me a date? And I'd give them a date. Plus, we flew people up and we put them up in the hotels. So we didn't personally make a ton of money. That wasn't my thing. My thing was having the best shows I could possibly have and making a name right.  And making a name for the club?  0:08:24 - Anne Absolutely, and that's interesting because, again, I like to talk about the entrepreneurial business side of what we do as creatives and freelancers, and there's a lot of thinking outside the box and also recognizing the value of the talent, that if you wanna put out great work, then you wanna hire a talent that's amazing and great and pay them fairly and absolutely. And so talk to me a little bit about the networking aspect. I mean, the cash is a good draw, but you also had to communicate effectively, I would say, to really book these talent.  0:08:58 - Tom Well, the thing that separated me from everybody else, besides being generous with the money that was brought in, was that I knew what they were going through, no matter what it was going on on stage. If they were dealing with a heckler, I'd gone through that as a comedian. If they were bombing, I knew that pain, so I could empathize with them, I could be their counselor, I could give them advice. I looked at it like I wasn't really a good comedian, and mainly that was because I wasn't true to who I am personally. So my mantra after that was be yourself.  0:09:32 - Anne I love that.  0:09:33 - Tom Yeah, that's who I wasn't. I was trying to fit in and have everybody like me and that really affected the quality of my stand up because I wasn't being true to me. So that was my mantra to everybody be yourself. Because nobody can take that away from you.  0:09:49 - Anne That's so interesting because I never ventured into comedy myself. However, I find that people find me the most funny when I am being my dorky self and I'm making mistakes and I'm just being oops, sorry, and I think in voiceover as well. I wanna talk more about that. I think it's all about being authentic and being yourself and that's really, I think, what connects you to people and engages you to people and endears you to people.  0:10:14 - Tom Yeah, I think it's really important when you get a job, and especially if it's somebody you want to get more bookings from play around, have fun. I mean, I booked a video game and the first thing we did we went through several of the lines I had to do and then we went through all those and I just did just the lines, basically no acting or anything like that and they went. Yep, that's about it. I went great, thank you.  0:10:33 - Anne Love it, love it, bye, bye.  0:10:35 - Tom So everybody started laughing. It loosens everybody up and that's really it's just. Don't be a pain on the ass. Realize that you're always learning. They're always learning. Everybody's a professional too, and so be courteous and nice and smart and be entertaining. You are the talent, so show some talent as a professional as well.  0:10:53 - Anne Show some talent. I love that. So talk about in the transition while booking talent. So you did that for a very long time, I mean 30 years, and so, wow, I mean, was there a point? I mean, were you just so busy for 30 years Did you think about voiceover? Was that a thought in your head or something that you would do, or you just were completely. You loved running the club and booking talent.  0:11:18 - Tom Prior to moving to San Francisco, I lived in Florida, lived in Sarasota, Florida, and I did a lot of theater there.  That's why, I fell in love with theater and acting. You know, I always thought like, oh, stand up might be a good gateway to getting into acting, but then I got into the business end of it. So I didn't really think about it until I got out and I didn't know what I was gonna do. And I was talking to Carlos and he said dude, you do so many voices and stuff. You'd be great at voice acting.  Cause I've always done impressions, never stopped doing impressions. In fact I would teach other people like Kevin Pollack or something, if they had an oppression and they couldn't figure it quite out. They were doing it but they weren't quite right. We'd kind of jam and help them get there, or they would help me get there and we'd all do our really weird outside the box impersonations. You'd have to spend five minutes explaining who that guy is Right right right.  0:12:07 - Anne So you can't do that one.  0:12:09 - Tom But for comics, we love doing those, especially impersonators, impressionists, we love doing those for other impersonators. It was kind of like our jazz moment, you know, where you get to jam behind the scenes with another musician.  0:12:20 - Anne Absolutely.  0:12:21 - Tom So Frank Calliendo, I had the club, and Dana Carvey, of course, was the master of the not perfect impression, but getting the perfect funny it didn't matter, that's what his genius is. Bye, you know, is finding the perfect funny to any voice. And then Tom Kenny played. The club started at Cobbs as well Again, the guy who did so many crazy voices. It was another inspiration for me to move there, and every once in a while I talked to him, cause I'll get a audition for something that I know is directing or in, so I go heads up and he's going dude.  I have nothing to do with casting, you know sometimes they cast people and I'm scratching my head. So yeah, but I'll put in a good word for you.  0:12:58 - Anne So Well, hey again, networking totally helps. Now comedy skill. I think comedy is a skill and art form. What are your thoughts on that?  0:13:07 - Tom I mean cause, oh, absolutely.  0:13:08 - Anne Yeah, it's not something that I can go on a stage and execute.  0:13:11 - Tom Yeah, it's like anything else I personally believe.  my philosophy is we all have a gift somewhere along the line. We might not be in a position ever to know what that gift is, but we all have a gift and sometimes there are people out there have more than a couple fair, but there's also people who just don't ever find theirs. And I think that the idea is you know to try to discover who you are and your strengths, weaknesses. Stay away from those weaknesses and hurdle towards your strengths, you know, and don't get locked up into one thing to always be on the road to discovery.  0:13:42 - Anne I guess I want to ask you first of all about once you got into voice acting and then was it like you were always wanting to book a certain genre because you've had lots of characters inside of you that wanted to come out? Or did you find any of the genres outside of character Interesting, because I'm a believer that you're a character in just about everything you do, even if you're doing e-learning.  0:14:05 - Tom Yeah, I always try to find a person, even when it's just one of those hey, you're a dad, or hey, you're a regular guy. Or I just had an audition yesterday where you're just a regular father, you know it's regular. But the line said something else, you know. So I gave one as what they were saying and then one. That's what I felt the lines were doing. It was a subtle difference, but it was a difference that maybe whoever put this together wants to see. If somebody figured it out, or they didn't know that's where they were going and they don't know. Sometimes they don't even know until they hear it.  So give them what you think they want, and then give them what they say they want.  0:14:39 - Anne So interesting. I guess I would talk to you then about writing right, especially now that you've transitioned in voice acting and you're given a script right, or you're given an audition and finding the humor. Sometimes there's subtleties in that humor, sometimes it's obvious. Are there telltale signs to look out for? And then, once you do see it, is there a specific way that you feel it should be performed? Should it be performed in the obvious way? Or maybe, if you wanna capture the ear of the casting director, you do something different?  0:15:08 - Tom Well, I think you know what you do with a couple takes is you do the one that's on the page and then you do the one that where you think they go or where you can go with it to show what you can bring to the party. I always like to find the humor in something, especially if it says it's humorous, you know, and then play around with it and add a little bit, do a little improv with it, find a little spontaneity into there, or sometimes I'll even rewrite a line, cause I think it's kind of like flat, so I'll make it a little funnier. A punchier.  0:15:36 - Anne Okay, now that gives me a segue into a question In terms of with the script, in terms of improv right For an audition, are you improving in the audition and or improving the line, and at what point do you feel that people may go too far if you're completely rewriting, or do you think that's offensive maybe?  0:15:54 - Tom I think you have to be pretty subtle in rewriting. I think you do run the risk of people going why do I bother sending you a script? Cause you're adding all this stuff to it. So you pick and choose your moments. You know I've done that before, I've added jokes. But I'll listen to it again and go okay, that's a little too much. Plus, I want to have them. I don't want the person thinking after the third one, is he gonna go back to the script or what you know. So I wanna pick and choose my moments and make sure that I think of the funniest, the ones that have the most oomph. You want them to land, and so era on the side of too few than too many.  0:16:33 - Anne Let's talk about character development for you, especially because you're an impressionist. So how can you take, let's say, and you don't necessarily wanna have a character that's just after a particular person, but you wanna develop it into your own character. Is there a formula or a process for that, in terms of developing new characters?  0:16:51 - Tom Well, I have a book of all the impersonations I do, well, a book with the impersonations I do. And then I have like one that's like the ones I do pretty right on, and the ones I do that are just kind of soft. I don't really have it down, but that's great because it's a character.  0:17:07 - Anne Do you have a number for that? Somebody wants to have how many characters in their arsenal, how many to build off of.  0:17:13 - Tom Every day that I can figure out how to do a different celebrity or something like that. I write it down in the book Cause it comes to you sometimes. I mean, when I figured out how to do Robin Williams, it just was an accident. It's one of those things where you find a word and all of a sudden. Then you find a place in your throat and you're doing it and you can't stop.  0:17:32 - Anne It's crazy so it just never stops. I love it, I love it.  0:17:37 - Tom So one day I did Robin for Robin and that didn't go so well, apparently I didn't know he doesn't like his voice, apparently being impersonated. You didn't like that. No, it's really a very awkward Cause. I thought it'd be a lot of fun.  0:17:50 - Anne Yeah, and that's interesting because I'm curious about that. You know, celebrities like their voices impersonated, or now we've got a whole another, a whole another digital thing to be thinking about, when voices might be impersonated or turned into right With synthetic voices. But that might be another podcast.  0:18:10 - Tom That's a little scary.  0:18:11 - Anne That's a scary one, absolutely.  0:18:13 - Tom The thing about it is is like the flaws, like, let's say, go back to Dana Carvey, cause again there aren't many that he does right on, he'll leave me be the first to admit it. He's not like somebody like Frank Caliendo, who's just like amazing. He's verbatim, you can hear the voice. He's somebody who can do a sound alike. Dana could never do a sound alike, but he gets people's caricature down. That's the thing is it's like, and that's kind of what makes it funny is the imperfections is going up, finding those words.  I just, you know, I used to do Bruce Stern and a lot of people kind of forgot who he was, and then one day I just was doing it for somebody to just start laughing Cause they didn't even remember who that Bruce Stern was. But it's just his voice is funny, you know, cause he has a kind of voice like that and it's very inquisitive either. Everything goes up at the end Doesn't make a darn gosh darn bit of difference, and not sometimes he gets crazy. But and so you find those little imperfections actually make a character and make it really funny. That's what I like to do. You know, I did a animation pilot and it was like a hippie character and I was going through a bunch of voices with a writer cause they booked me and they didn't feel like they wanted to do something different with it. They said what can you do? And I was going through my book and I started doing Nick Nolte and they loved it and then you ended up going with that over what they originally had, with me doing it.  0:19:37 - Anne So I love how you have a book with everything written down. Now, do you also have audio files that go along with that, so that you can help yourself get into words?  0:19:45 - Tom Yeah, I have one where it's all my impressions, so that way I can go back. And how do I do that? One Cause I don't practice them all the time. Cause.  0:19:54 - Anne I have life.  0:19:55 - Tom So, and I don't want to be walking around talking to myself, of course, of course. Man, it's got so many voices.  0:20:00 - Anne So are you writing down then the name and then you write down the qualities of the characteristics or how you get into it. Is it a kick phrase? Maybe that gets you into the character.  0:20:10 - Tom Well, there's certain words, for example, you know, I came up with for Christopher Walk and I came up with the word pantaloon being the perfect Christopher Walken word. I'm thinking cowbell but that's yeah, cause. Well, that's, this is before cowbell yeah, before cowbell.  0:20:26 - Anne But pantaloon automatically gets me there. I love it. I love it Cause I say it.  0:20:33 - Tom I can't help but do more. Christopher Walken, who doesn't like a nice pair of pantaloons?  0:20:43 - Anne I love it. I love it.  0:20:44 - Tom Cause you want your calves exposed. So yeah, and then with Kurt Douglas, it was horse, oh Horse, okay, I'm going to read my horse. If I say horse, I go into Kurt Douglas Well.  0:21:01 - Anne I think there's something always so obviously so entertaining, but something that just draws people to comedy. What are your thoughts about this crazy, chaotic world that we live in today, and where does comedy sit now, I mean, in terms of how important is it?  0:21:17 - Tom I think comedy is as important as it ever was. And it's in a weird place right now, cause I think a lot of people are reacting to people saying words and there's a lot of people getting offended easily and comedy is not for those folks that have thin skin, both sides of it.  I find it funny that I think a lot of comics right now have thin skin as far as getting some criticism back, cause it's also about growth. What was funny in 1970, if you listened to comedy in 1970 or the 80s, it's not as funny now. In some of it's just not funny at all. We grow, we expand, we move on, and to me, that's what's great about comedy is it's about adapting. You're always adapting. You're always growing, as you should be as a person. So to me, if you're moving the ball forward constantly in your life, you're gonna be a better person than you were 10 years ago. So why not take that to comedy? Absolutely, the things that were funny like 15, 20 years ago are real cringy right now, and it's not because they weren't funny back then. They were. It's the same reason I get upset with people who go back like 20 years and go. I can't believe you said that back then.  0:22:28 - Anne Well, back then that wasn't offensive.  0:22:30 - Tom Exactly, we didn't find that offensive back then. Now we've all grown up and we've all moved on a bit and we understand that's not the same. But don't punish me for something that was okay Back then. Mark Twain, who wrote a famous book about a guy named Tom Sawyer, had a lot of cringy stuff in his books. There's still masterworks of literature, but those were the times. We have to accept. That's where those books came and there were a reflection of those times. Same way we would stand up. So to me it's just about. Everybody just needs to grow up. Everybody needs to understand where everybody was back then and where they are now and be better for them.  0:23:06 - Anne Yeah, yeah. Do you find that you miss owning a comedy club or booking talent or having that in your life?  0:23:12 - Tom I miss working with young comics. That's the thing I miss the most and it was actually when I started. The last version of Cubs when it exists now, because it's a 400-seat room has really amazing acts, but they're much bigger acts and they generally bring their own acts with them, and comedians who can bring their own acts generally don't bring really really great acts because they don't want to have to work as hard. I would make comics work hard because I would have really good acts going on before them.  Sure, so they have to try to continually stand tall, so they had to keep their game. My thing was like Interesting strategy. I like that yeah yeah, absolutely Nobody could coast. And then later on it was comics they would bring in.  I didn't think they were as talented as some of the people I could book with these guys, and so I wasn't really working with the comics anymore as much as I used to, and so that's one of the things about smaller room is you can get to work with younger comics and you get to tell them the dos and the don'ts and hopefully guide them to a path where they can be their best selves on stage. Sure, that part I miss.  0:24:14 - Anne And actually, speaking of that, what sort of advice would you give to voice talent out there that want to continually up their game and stay on top of the voiceover game, because, boy, it's competitive out there, super competitive.  0:24:27 - Tom It's crazy, it's crazy.  0:24:29 - Anne Like just as I'm sure it was in comedy and being in the club. It's such a mental game a lot of the times too.  0:24:34 - Tom Yeah, the nice thing about voiceover having been a stage actor very early in my life is you don't see the person who you're auditioning for, so you don't see that look, as soon as you hit the stage, that you've already lost your audition. You're not the person they're looking for, and that's so disheartening sometimes so at least you go into every audition with this could?  0:24:56 - Anne be the one.  0:24:57 - Tom And I love auditioning, so I love going into another character or finding something I haven't found before, or even sometimes there's a couple of characters I do that I think, oh man, this one is definitely gonna find a home someplace. It's just a matter of getting in front of the right casting person hearing it. So I'll bring out those guys every now and then, when it's the right opportunity for those characters, cause they're like they're my buddies. I want them to succeed. Yeah, I think just have fun in the booth is the main thing, and if you need to take a break, tell your agent I need to take a break. I mean, I talked to other voice actors and it gets a little depressing. Everybody came in this business thinking that everybody always said I should be in voice acting and everybody always said this is what I should be doing and I did it and nothing's happening.  0:25:43 - Anne Yeah, what's your advice for that? Because that becomes like a mind game. It becomes like oh my God, I've done all this work, what else can I do? I mean, what would you suggest in terms of getting work? It seems like the question I get most often as a coach is like so all right, I've got this great demo now and had this great coaching, and so now, where's the work? How do I get the work? Or how do I stand out?  0:26:04 - Tom I think the thing about it is acting as a lottery. You're buying a lottery ticket is what you're doing. I mean, carlos Alice Rocky was a comic Lucky, had a job, state entertainment state creative, but it was getting the Taco Bell, chihuahua and all those people you auditioned from and he hit it, hit the lottery, you know so, and from there he's done so many other things. But when I say who Carlos Alice Rocky is, when I bring him up, I always go the Taco Bell, chihuahua guy and they go oh, I love that. So it's the same thing where you just go, my lottery ticket is gonna come and you're gonna believe in yourself.  When you believe in your talent and talk to other people in the business too. Just do classes I think it's still a good idea to do, just as even a workout session. Plus, you get some inspiration from other people who have a different style, maybe that you see something in yourself or you bring out something in yourself you didn't know was there. So I would say, take a class every now and then network with other people who just to have support, just so, hey, I'm here for you when you're down on yourself, in the same way that if I need somebody to talk to and say, hey, I'm really kind of wondering what the hell I'm doing here.  And they can talk you down from being sad or lift your spirits up and let you know you're really a talented person. That's why you got into this whole thing in the first place.  0:27:16 - Anne Yeah, I think that self-sabotage can happen to the best of us even.  0:27:20 - Tom And then sometimes you'll hear it in the reads. I mean, again, I'll go into a class and you can tell the person who's been beat down on pretty bad by themselves, mostly Cause do you have an agent? Yeah, do you have a demo? Yeah, well, you're doing all the right things and I think it's good to have an agent or two that are giving you good feedback or giving you feedback.  0:27:40 - Anne I was with an agency that way too many people.  0:27:43 - Tom The poop sticks agency you have 400 people that they represent and you just go. That's too many. I don't feel special when you're just going okay.  You got a demo, you're in. So I think, being with a smaller agency, that's a little more hands-on. Both my agents give me feedback every time, even if it's just a nice job. Yeah, and because of that I feel like I'm better for it, because I already know if I see a script, I know exactly what kind of read in the ballpark I need to be, so that's what I'm gonna get back. I'm at the point now where I really get back oh, you need to do this, this is too much, and something like that. So it's always I recognize what I'm working with right away. I do it, get it out, get the feedback, forget about it.  0:28:26 - Anne That's what you gotta do. I think a lot of people really crave feedback in this industry because we are just in our studios, kind of just talking into our little four padded walls, and so a lot of times it's hard when you don't get feedback and it's interesting.  0:28:40 - Tom Yeah, especially if you don't have a partner in a relationship, you know where you can at least go hey, honey, what do you think of this?  0:28:47 - Anne Yeah, you can bounce it off.  0:28:48 - Tom I don't bother my wife with everything, but every once in a while, you know, I go. You know, what do you think of this? Or she'll hear me and she'll go. I need to hear the whole thing. She'll hear me in my booth screaming, you know. And then now she has to hear all the stuff I did in that character.  0:29:04 - Anne I love what you said about well, at least when you're in front of a stage, I can, you can get that reaction from the audience. You know that, if you've bombed or not already, and the fact that when you're in your studio you actually use the fact that you're not in front of an audience as a creative kind of positive outlook, that you can be creative and not have to face that which is so interesting from, let's say, somebody that doesn't necessarily or hasn't started from being on stage. They might've worked a corporate job and now all of a sudden they're getting into character acting, and so they don't have that perspective. So I really like that perspective of taking the challenge and I think the creativity has to be in your brain, your imagination. You have to imagine that character in that scene, which is so difficult for some people. Do you have any tips on how to really create a scene realistically while you're sitting here in your studio?  0:29:53 - Tom Yeah, I think the most important thing, especially when you get those video games where it's like one line, one line, one line, one line, five, one lines and they're like hey, don't touch that rock and you're going. How are these people going to book somebody based on five lines that are no more than 10 words for the longest one?  and you're going, how am I gonna stand out in front of anybody? So you gotta kind of create a scene around those and those. I generally will write a bigger scene for the line and then because I'll have the line in there and I'll make sure that it doesn't bleed into the other words that I'm saying, but that gives me a little bit more emotional pop for that line.  0:30:35 - Anne Are you developing the characters that you're interacting with as well?  0:30:38 - Tom I know who I'm talking to. Yeah, so I might not have the character fully developed, but I know who I'm talking to.  0:30:44 - Anne Right, and what's happening in that scene? And what's happening, yeah, and you actually write that down.  0:30:48 - Tom I'll go on Word, I'll cut and paste the lines and then I'll put words around the line and highlight the line that is actually in it. So I have all the other words and a highlighted line to make sure I hit that one. But I know what's going on and I try to create more around it.  0:31:05 - Anne So how long would you say do you spend, let's say, analyzing and doing all that work? How long would you say you take for an audition to kind of do that creating the scene and writing that down before you go in and record?  0:31:17 - Tom It depends on my schedule and what I have to do and also how much I think something is really in my wheelhouse. I mean there's things you get where it's like I knock it out in 10 minutes because I really have a solid idea of what I'm gonna do with it and I go and do it and I listen to. It sounds good. With characters, though, with video games and animation, I really like to do as much as I possibly can. I remember I did this video game audition where the character was cockney. I called my dialect coach and we went through the whole thing together.  It was like a class for me. I thought this was a good opportunity to have a little class on doing a cockney accent and I said can I book our session with you? And we just worked on the script I was auditioning for because I really I loved it and I really wanted to nail it and, regardless, I got a class out of it. So it did two things for me helped me learn, and I put that learning to immediate use.  0:32:11 - Anne Absolutely absolutely.  0:32:13 - Tom And again, that's a really good thing to do is have a network of people, find a good dialect coach, find people that are teachers or coaches that you can work with, that you can go to and use them when you need, when you're stuck or when you just need something. Had a Pixar audition that I did and the character was obviously somebody from Eastern Europe and I had a friend who's from Ukraine and we went through the script and she helped me with some of the pronunciations and I didn't book it but I really felt confident sending it in.  0:32:45 - Anne I really felt like I nailed it Exactly. I love that because you've gotten the worth out of it, whether you booked it or not. So that's the other thing. So when you really are excited about something and you do all that work and you feel like you nailed the audition, but then you didn't book it, thoughts on how to stop that from getting you all upset and, oh my God, that's it.  0:33:03 - Tom Well, it's sort of like you still have to go. This is out of my control. I have no idea what the other person at the other end is going through what they've got in front of them. If they end up going with somebody that they've already booked for something and they can give them another character because union rules and it's like you did a really good job, maybe even better than that person but they're already booked and they don't have to pay another person to do that voice. They can do up to three voices and not get a penny more. So they go. Let's just give them that, so you don't know all the little things that transpire for somebody to get that part over you.  0:33:35 - Anne Yeah, and I think it's important for people to understand that it doesn't necessarily reflect on a poor performance or a poor audition.  0:33:42 - Tom No, my agent is a very funny woman and my auditions who I'm getting in front of have escalated. I'm doing more Disney Pixar auditions and stuff like that and she just goes. You're feeling upwardly.  0:33:53 - Anne There you go. I love that.  0:33:56 - Tom Which I thought was hilarious, because we always think we're failing. We're not. We're all doing the best we can and we're all doing great auditions. But because I'm doing so well in my auditions, other casting people are getting interested, so I am getting in front of people that I didn't get in front of, like four or five years ago.  0:34:12 - Anne Awesome, that's awesome. So even if you don't book the job, you could be making an impression on someone that can get you maybe the next job or the job after that.  0:34:21 - Tom That's the idea. They go well.  I really like that because you don't know, when I was booking COBS I would get DVDs and before that VHSs of comedians from around the country. We were very well known so I would get them from New York, boston, other parts of the country and they'd just pile up on my desk because it was excruciating for me at some times. So then at one point, when they were ready to fall over, I would just start watching them. In the beginning I would watch two or three minutes of somebody. Then it came down to just 30 seconds to a minute, because you know right away and that's how I'm sure it is for casting people.  0:34:56 - Anne You know right away if there's talent or if they were gonna be bookable absolutely or if they're right or wrong.  0:35:01 - Tom You might like them and you might wanna listen to the whole thing and you would go ah, they're just not quite right. I need a little bit of a younger voice. This is obviously somebody who's an older voice and I think it's really. I mean, I try to do what I can and have as much fun as I can, because there's gonna be probably 10 years down the road where this voice isn't gonna sound the same and I'll be doing grandpas and wizards.  0:35:22 - Anne So yeah, our voices do change as they age. I have experienced that myself. I certainly sound a whole lot different than I did 10 years ago. Well, well, this has been an amazing discussion, Tom. I so appreciate you taking the time and just dropping all these wonderful tips and tricks and words of wisdom for the boss listeners out there.  0:35:45 - Tom Yeah, yeah, have fun kids. That's the message.  0:35:47 - Anne There you go. I love that. So, bosses, I want you to take a moment and imagine a world full of passionate and powered, diverse individuals giving collectively and intentionally to create the world that they wanna see. You can make a difference. Find out more at 100voiceshoocareorg. And a big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can network and connect with amazing people like Tom. Find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye.  0:36:18 - Outro Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Ann Gangusa, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.  Transcribed by https://podium.page  

What would it look like if you could harness the energy of a conference and convert it into effectiveness? What would it feel like to be your own boss in the voiceover industry? Our esteemed guest, Tom Dheere, joins us as we unravel the answers to these thought-provoking questions. We share valuable insights on setting the right objectives, maximizing conference experiences, and the commitment required to become a full-time voice actor. Plus, we examine the liberating perspective of entrepreneurial freedom offered by the voiceover industry. 0:00:01 - Anne Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the real boss series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza and I am so happy to bring to this series Mr Tom Dheere. Thank you so much, tom, for joining me on this.   0:00:15 - Tom Yay, thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited about this. This is going to be great.   0:00:19 - Anne Oh, tom, first of all, it was so awesome to see you at the One Voice conference.   0:00:25 - Tom Yes, likewise.   0:00:27 - Anne I know we just had. You were just a guest on my podcast and, lo and behold, like two times I see you within the span of a month or two, which is really incredible, right?   Sometimes we have to go to conferences to just meet in person so whew, I was exhausting that conference, but super motivating, and I know a lot of people who went to that conference are all revved up and ready to go, motivated, inspired. We took amazing classes and so I think it's a good time to talk about. You know, what do we do with all that amazing energy that we just absorbed in that conference? Because I'm revved up, I'm motivated, ready to go. What can we do to, I guess, keep ourselves or keep the momentum going, tom?   0:01:16 - Tom That is a fantastic question and I know you've been presented at dozens and dozens of conferences over the past 10 years, and so have I, and we go and we meet wonderful people and we present and we also attend workshops and panels and we learn a lot and we get to commiserate with our peers, voice actors and coaches and other producers and stuff like that. And then there's this glow.   0:01:42 - Anne There is a glow. It's wonderful glow. There is a glow.   0:01:46 - Tom And then you go home and then for the vast majority of people that go to these conferences, it's like whew.   0:01:53 - Anne And then life sets in right. I have laundry to do. Yeah, family, yeah, right Bills and auditions and stuff like that.   0:02:02 - Tom So it's great. Conferences are great for, obviously for education. They're great for networking, they're great for renewal of purpose, refocus, re-energizing. The trick is how to take all that positive energy and inspiration and revved up-ed-ness and coming, taking it home with you and turning it into effectiveness. Because the positive attitude, while great it can only get you so far, it's not going to get you home. You're going to run out of that momentum and now there's work to be done.   0:02:37 - Anne Interesting, tom. Before we went to the conference, I think somebody had actually created a note sheet of like here are the I guess the talks that I want to go to, here are my goals, or here's what I got out of it, and I thought it was a really great way for people who like that type of thing and they take a lot of notes to write down your objectives. What are you hoping to get from that? And then what do you hope to do once you get, maybe once you get home, to put those lessons learned in place? And so I think that maybe everything should start even before we go to the conference in terms of writing things down and what is it that you hope to get out of this conference. And I'm a big planner, so I am a big proponent of yeah, you guys should plan out what sessions you want to go to, look at the schedule multiple times and just see how you can get the most out of the money that you've spent on that ticket of yours.   0:03:33 - Tom Yeah, absolutely, and different people at different points in their voiceover journey go to different conferences for different reasons, if it's. I've never been one to been one to one before, and I just want to. I haven't even produced a demo yet. I just want to see what this universe is like.   0:03:47 - Anne Great.   0:03:48 - Tom If it's, this is my 15th conference. I've had all these demos done, I've gotten all this work. What am I going to get out of it this time? Or some people go because they specifically want to meet you, or they want to meet another coach or demo producer to see, I want to get in the same room with this person and see if we click because I may want to work with you as a coach or a demo producer. Um, you know, and some go purely as presenters and you know, and then they, you know, do their stuff and then they get out of there and yeah, which is which is which is cool too.   0:04:19 - Anne I think there's such a, there's such a momentum to be gained by just joining forces with like-minded people and, just you know, renewing um relationships, and that just keeps you going, because it's so isolating sometimes just what we do and yeah and I will tell you, though, that the other day I was I don't even know what it was that made me think of it, but I I think I was getting ready to, you know, start.   I had a full day of students, and I said, I don't know what made me think about, oh god, what if I had to go to work for somebody?   um, you know, back in my days of corporate and I'm like I I could never do that again. So boss is out there. This is just a little segue. If you, if, if you know that this is what you want to do and you end up pursuing it full time, I don't say rush into it with your, you know, with your eyes closed. But, um and Tom, we can talk lots of strategies about that, but once you make that decision to go full time, I don't do you know anybody who's actually gone back because they've been unhappy being their own boss um, I know lots of people who have gone back to a regular job because they just couldn't book enough right they needed the money.   0:05:24 - Tom Yeah, exactly, it was purely financially, like I've been trying this and I just, I just can't get enough work to sustain myself and they've come gone back. Um, I can't think of anyone specifically, but I'm sure there are people out there, because there are people who just like to be told what to do, because then they don't have to think about it and there's a level of security in that and I totally that's sympathize with that.   0:05:45 - Anne I'm not one of those people, I can't. I don't, I don't think I could, I could not go back to taking now, I think, now I can take. I can take instructions from my client. Sure, I can be directed um, and then I want to get paid and be done with it. I think that's really it's. It's an interesting. It's an interesting, it's a different dynamic, because that's a, that's a, that's a business to business thing where you and the clients are on equal footing there's no high. There's no hierarchy.   0:06:10 - Tom It's it's you and the client trying to make this finished, great finished product, which is, you know, the audio files that you're gonna send to them or their, their source connecting you through. But with what? When it's a, I am in charge of you and. I'm telling you what to do, and this is when you can go to the bathroom and stuff like that it's like ah, I don't know if I could.   0:06:29 - Anne I don't know, I don't think I could go back to that it makes me think of okay, it's similar to I know I just went off on that on that weird tangent, but that happens sometime, bosses, sorry, um, but it was just a weird like. It just came to me. I was like I could not work for somebody now, so I will do everything in my power to make my business so that I do not have to do that. I think that also was leading into that.   But I think isn't that similar to, let's say, I, I pay my money, I get my ticket, I go to a conference, I take these classes, I'm inspired for a new genre, I'm inspired to work with a new coach, and then we come back and, oops, we're by ourselves, right. So now, yeah, it's very similar to what now, you know, we're gonna be talking about is we've got to take the reins and we've got to do the work and it's, it's now up to us, and we're not necessarily having that coach or that director saying, okay, do this, do this, do this. Now we've got all of this energy and this motivation. How do we cement that and you know, and and start to just really move forward on that?   0:07:27 - Tom right. The trick is if you want to be the vo boss you need to learn how to be your own boss. Yeah, yeah, you know it's empowering to like be the boss. Yeah, I'm a tough boss. I'll tell you that my boss is a jerk my boss, I would say my boss is a bastard oh, I just said that oh. I had another word in mind, but I didn't use it.   0:07:49 - Anne I'm not sure if we'll bleep that out, but yeah woo, I'll tell you what. I've never worked for a harder boss, but isn't that true?   0:07:57 - Tom yeah, yeah, I'm hard on ourselves. I'm pretty real, I'm I'm often pretty relentless and I have to be because I have this bad habit.   0:08:05 - Anne It's called eating and and having a roof over my head, yes, and not living in a cardboard box, yes, yeah, you know.   0:08:14 - Tom So yeah, the motivation is like there's no net yeah, you know what I mean. If I don't audition for this, there's a 100 chance that I'm not gonna book it well, yeah, and I think that's what propels me for sure you know what I mean to get work done, I mean right the fact that I need right.   0:08:30 - Anne I need to be able to pay the mortgage right, and that's the, and that's a.   0:08:33 - Tom That's a great point, anne, is that different people need to find different motivations. To stay motivated when you are alone in your booth talking to yourself? You know, so that's a big part of you know I talk about effectiveness. There's a difference between talent and effectiveness. There's a lot of talented aspiring voice actors out there with interesting voices but like I have an interesting pen, it doesn't make me an author, you know.   0:09:02 - Anne I own a wrench. It doesn't make me a plumber, so having talent, voice doesn't make me effective. Yeah absolutely.   0:09:11 - Tom You know, because no one's going to get discovered, you're not going to get your big break. It doesn't really work that way.   0:09:16 - Anne It's what you do with that pen that matters. It's what you do with that voice that matters.   0:09:20 - Tom Exactly and consistently. Yes, absolutely so when you get home from that conference and you've got all that positive attitude. That's great If you can bottle it and put it on a shelf for later.   0:09:30 - Anne That's great.   0:09:31 - Tom But when you get home, it's about what can I do to be effective today, tomorrow, next week, month, quarter year, two years, five years? And I'm not necessarily talking about writing a business plan, which is something I do do as the, as the video strategist, but it's about how do I think about myself to stay motivated. How do I think about and understand the voiceover industry? So there's a reality, because that's the other thing and, as you know, people coming into the industry have no idea what the industry is. They just have this odd preconceived notion of what it is. Oh yeah, I talk interesting. I got to just get an agent and then they'll just throw Saxa cash at me.   0:10:10 - Anne Exactly and I think, yeah, you don't know what you don't know right.   0:10:13 - Tom You don't know what you don't know.   0:10:15 - Anne And especially not only that is it a new industry for a lot of people, but it's also the fact that there's a lot of people who are very unhappy in their current job situation and get out of that work for somebody else, but then working for yourself is a whole different animal and that really is, I think, where the double it's.   The double whammy comes in for those people new to the industry, because not only are they trying to acquire the skills to be a good talent, but now they also have to have good business skills as well, and they're not used to working for themselves or having to go out and market themselves and get work and all those hats that they've got to put on.   0:10:58 - Tom Yeah, I had a maybe 15 years ago here in New York City. I had a 10 minute meet up with an agent I don't remember which one but he said tell me about yourself. And I talked about all the things I do. He's like, wow, you got a lot of hats.   And I'm like, yeah he's like but you only have one head and I'm like, yeah, so you kind of to be an effective voice actor, you need to kind of be the Dr Seuss Bartholomew in 1001 hats and have all those hats stacked up on. Some of them, some of them, you can take on and put on and take off, but a bunch of them you have to have stacked on your head at the same time, because there is no job description for being a voice actor.   I mean, there is, but nobody knows what it is, until you get here and it's like unlocking these doors and you know, moving these hedges aside and going oh, I need to do, I have to do that. You know it's like. It's almost like a maze, which is the logo of the VO strategist. Now that I think about it helping you navigate the voice over the industry, absolutely. So, navigating the maze of what it means to be an effective voice actor, and staying motivated at the same time. Because, yes, invoicing.   0:12:08 - Anne Staying, staying motivated when you're doing something like accounting.   0:12:12 - Tom Like for me.   0:12:12 - Anne I mean, well, I'm not. I mean, there are some people who love accounting, right, so there's accounting for me. How do there you go See for me? I'm like, oh God, actually I will tell you, tom. So for me, staying motivated while I have an S corp, right, and an S corp is creating all of this paperwork for me and for me, I can't, god it's, and it's just like I need to, either just, you know, be educated about, you know, the entire S corp thing, or I outsource, right. So I think if I had to do all that paperwork and try to understand it all and to stay motivated, it would be very, very difficult for that to happen, and it may discourage me from wanting to have a voiceover business because of this paperwork that I continually have to supply to the government, to you know, support this business, but I, you know, for me one of my solutions is to outsource that right.   And make sure that I have somebody that I trust and can go to if I have any questions, that can handle that aspect for me. So if I'll, I know, constantly get mail, mail, snail mail saying you need to provide this information, or you owe us this amount of money, or you need to prepay this or you know whatever that is, and so I literally will just be like, oh my gosh, this is a lot of paperwork. So I will literally scan that in and send that to my accountant, which, by the way, I will say to the to to my dying day, I will say my accountant was my very best investment for this business. I just I can't. I can't do the numbers.   0:13:45 - Tom Right, well, and that's that's a very important point, and is that if you're getting into the voiceover industry, obviously you need to understand what does that entail on you know soft skills, hard skills, hardware, software, marketing, money and all that stuff, and you need to know, you need to have an understanding of what your S corp is, or what this is, where that is, and then you can decide okay, this is a skill I need to just understand, but I'll outsource it and this is a skill like, for example, using your DAW.   0:14:14 - Anne You have to know how to use your DAW.   0:14:17 - Tom You need to know how to audition and you need to know how to record and clean up and save and, you know, deliver audio file. Some stuff is non-negotiable. You know what I mean.   0:14:27 - Anne But managing your S corp, you know right, that's another thing.   0:14:31 - Tom Or if you're an audio book narrator or a long form e-learning narrator, do you want to hire an audio, an audio engineer, to clean up your clean up your audio or do you want to do that, Do it yourself? Or do you say do it yourself first to understand how it works and why it works and then outsource it? And I'm sure some of your bosses are thinking I don't have that money. To outsource yes, I don't have the money to outsource.   0:14:54 - Anne You need to invest your money to make the money. That's what I always start by saying invest the money to make the money, but and maybe not try to put yourself wholeheartedly into the business until you do have money that you can invest, because that would be, from any perspective, any business. You have to have some investment money.   0:15:15 - Tom I mean it's not just voiceover, just some.   0:15:17 - Anne for some reason it became this like oh, we just talking to a microphone, how easy is that. I don't need to have any money or be prepared, or maybe I just got to buy a mic.   And that, I think, is where, where in the problem lies, where then you start to have, you know, predators in the industry that will sell that dream and people who will get taken for that dream and without the realization that, yeah, they have to put things in place and make investments to do that. So let's, let's kind of go back to we've gone to a conference and we've gotten motivated, and even it doesn't have to be a physical conference, it could be a virtual, online, you know, workshop or whatnot. I just went to a workshop called Unstoppable you. It was a Tony Robbins thing, which was all about the motivation, all about the motivation.   But yeah, now that you've, now that you're motivated, you've got to do the work and you've got to maybe take a look at the hard like really take a look at the the hard questions and and then make concrete steps to move forward. So it's like I can ask the hard questions. I can maybe, I can maybe get through the answers and they might make me cry, some of them Right, they right and so I can do that, but now I have to actually do the hard part, which is moving forward. So what, what would be the first thing you would recommend? Let's say, somebody that comes back from a conference or, you know, a workshop or whatever, and maybe a meeting with a coach and they're they're inspired, they're motivated. What's the first thing that you would have them do?   0:16:46 - Tom The first thing that I would have them do is write down in severe detail what they're perfect.   0:16:51 - Anne Severe detail, not just detail. Severe detail, severe detail.   0:16:55 - Tom What their perfect voiceover day looks like.   0:16:58 - Anne Oh, okay, okay. Follow me with just work with me for a second.   0:17:02 - Tom What time of day are you waking up? What time zone are you in when you wake up? Are you waking up in a house, a cabin, a condo, a space station?   a bunker, a submarine Like? Where are you waking up when it's time to start doing voiceover? Does the limo pick you up? Are you walking downstairs into the basement? Are you getting on a bicycle to go downtown? Are you going into your backyard to your custom built booth? Are you going into the attic? Are you taking a bus or a train? And then, when you get there, what are? What kind of? What kind of bookings are you doing? What genres or subgenres of voiceover? One or more? How much are you getting paid? Obviously, we all want to get paid as much as possible, but what is that actual number that you need to cover all of your voiceover expenses, all of your personal expenses? Manage your debt, save for retirement, save for that college education for your kids, save for that car and have enough to have a little fun.   0:18:01 - Anne And this is before. You're a working talent, right, this is still a, really, if you're just new to the industry and you want to get into it and you're let's say, you're in the process with a coach and you're making demos.   You want to project what genres? First of all, if you're working with a coach, you should probably have a genre in mind already yes, right, and with a genre specific coach. So you kind of know where you want to go. But putting that down, right, even if you're not actually doing the work as you were mentioning okay, this is the work, I'm going to be doing these auditions, even if you don't have audition opportunities yet and you're still just working. Put down that on the list because you want to make sure that you have the space for it and the time for it. Right, right, right. And then the goal, steps, the steps.   0:18:42 - Tom Right, exactly. And once you have that perfect day realized, written down in severe detail, you walk that backwards to the day to the moment that you're writing that list. What are you missing between right now and that perfect voiceover day? What money, how much money do you need? What training do you need? What tools do you need? What marketing acumen do you need? All of the things big and small, knowledge, hardware, software, tangible, intangible mindset to get you where you are and figure out what are you missing and what you need to do to fill those gaps. So when you come home from a conference, all motivated, try to figure out what the practical application of all the wonderful information that you just collected is. We go to all these workshops and listen to all these panels and take all these notes and some of the knowledge is immediately actionable and others are, for you know, I took this genre workshop. I'm gonna keep these notes and maybe I'll be ready for it in a year or two.   And so on and so forth. Organize, organize everything, because you need to figure out how actionable and practical everything that you need is to do to get you to that perfect voiceover day and use the glow and energy and momentum of the conference that you just got home from to kind of build that foundation, build that scaffolding, create that structure. So, when you get back into the day to day grind of trying to build or develop or nurture your voiceover business, you have effective systems of thought and effective systems of execution.   0:20:23 - Anne And let me interject also what I think is important is, of course, yes, you took that workshop on animation or whatever promo, imaging, whatever it is, you know, medical narration, I say because I just did that, love it or corporate.   I think that you always have to keep your eye on the market. I gosh, I feel like sometimes we become so blinded by our own like performance because we're like, oh, I want to get really good at animation or I want to get really good at, you know, whatever commercial or corporate. But I think we always have to keep our eye on the marketplace because if there's not a demand or if the demand is not as big and I'm always telling this to my students about corporate, it's a huge market, is a huge opportunity there Versus animation. Not that there isn't a huge opportunity there, but there's less of an opportunity there than there is in corporate. There's more of an opportunity in e-learning than there is in even I would say, promo, promo, of course. Right, documentary. Everybody that comes to me for narration says I want to do documentaries and I'm like well, how many documentaries do you think there are at any given time? Do you know?   0:21:32 - Tom what I mean yeah.   0:21:33 - Anne Compared to the 30.4 million registered companies that have a product or service to sell that need a corporate narrator.   0:21:40 - Tom And need human resources videos and need orientation videos and need compliance videos Right.   0:21:45 - Anne And I think that that is something that we really need to take into consideration at all points in our business, because that will affect right when you're talking about here's where I am. Here are the here's my perfect day, here's where I want to be, I want to be animating, I want to be doing animations on television or whatever that is, or I want to have a national commercial spot. That's all well and good. However, I think that you also have to take in account what is the market for that? Is there okay? Are you going to be able? And I used to think erroneously back in the beginning, before I realized what the market was oh, I just need a commercial a day, right? Or you know, oh, wouldn't that be nice.   Oh yeah, tom, we're talking about real talk, right? Real bosses. Well, okay, I don't know anybody that gets a commercial a day, except for people who are maybe on rosters for serious exam or they're doing, and that's usually for lower pay. But if you're thinking like, oh, if I got a national spot, even one a week, right, I mean, unless you're in it, voice for a campaign. I mean, I love how you laugh, that's the perfect way.   0:22:46 - Tom Well, I laugh because I thought I had to sound like James Earl Jones.   0:22:47 - Anne Right, I mean yeah, and so like that is. You know you have to understand what's realistic for the, for the industry too, when you're jotting these down. So any education that you can get on that right. Listen to podcasts like Vio Boss. I mean, we've been doing this for six years, right, talking about markets and business. And, tom, you've been doing gosh. How many years have you been doing business consulting?   0:23:10 - Tom and strategizing Over 10 years.   0:23:12 - Anne Yeah, over 10 years and specifically in our industry, and so, like guys, I mean, look, I'm not saying of course you should come to us, but I mean we've been doing this for a long time, we've watched the market evolve and so that's why I want to point it out and say that this is so important for us to have in consideration in our, in our step by step process of here's where we are, here's where we want to be. Now, if I want to be, you know, a commercial, you know Vio artist, well, maybe I want to think about another genre as well, to add in, to supplement those days when I don't get the national campaign every day. And I'm not trying to crush your dreams, guys, that's just not, that's just not it. But you know we're. This is a dose of reality, right, tom?   This is our whole series is based on let's talk real yeah.   0:23:57 - Tom The reality is is that you may be. You may be good at something you don't like, and you may not be good at something you do like.   A lot of people are drawn to the industry because they love cartoons and video games, and a lot of them may not be good at it, but they may find out that they are good at corporate or e-learning, which is a far more to your point, stable form of voiceover income, because, when it comes to effectiveness, the bottom line of effectiveness as a voice actor is you're able to make money. You're able to develop a revenue stream.   0:24:28 - Anne Develop any revenue stream that you need to make. Yeah, develop any revenue stream.   0:24:32 - Tom you can in any genre, whether you like it or not, and I always say all genres of voiceover is storytelling. I get my storytelling jollies out of any voiceover genre.   0:24:44 - Anne I don't care Teaching statistics right or you're narrating corporate responsibility or HR policies. You are absolutely a character and you are acting, and so that is a requirement, that is, I mean, baseline requirement, especially now when we talked about this in our last podcast. It is such a requirement for us to be the actors that we are called to be, I mean, and that includes all genres. So, yes, and that's the reality, that's the real talk.   0:25:14 - Tom Yes.   0:25:15 - Anne The real talk is you've got to invest in yourself, in developing those skills and getting good coaching, and not just taking acting classes. I know everybody would say take an acting class, and I think that's wonderful too, but you've also got to take acting classes as they pertain to voiceover as well.   0:25:32 - Tom Yes, there's a crossover. I mean, I always say improv classes are extremely important because it gives you the ability to make strong decisions quickly while you're narrating your copy. But to an end, compliment stuff like that, and there's like there are people who do improv for voiceover and acting specifically for voiceover. It's a very specific skill.   0:25:54 - Anne There's very specific muscles that you need to flex, Absolutely, absolutely To be to do voiceover as opposed to on camera or as opposed to theater. I'm all about teaching the acting for narration and, by the way, tom, I miss you. I don't see you. Did you turn your camera off by any chance?   0:26:09 - Tom No, I'm still here.   0:26:11 - Anne Oh, I don't see you how interesting. That's that's. Do you see yourself?   0:26:16 - Tom I do.   0:26:17 - Anne Oh, okay. Well, I'm just going to assume.   0:26:19 - Tom Okay.   0:26:20 - Anne I'm going to assume that it just kind of blipped off. But you know, hey guys, technology Riverside, hopefully we'll have your, we'll have your video anyways.   0:26:30 - Tom Okay.   0:26:30 - Anne Absolutely, so, okay, so, so what a great conversation. So now you're back. Okay, so that's interesting. So now we've taken our, we've come back from the conference, we're motivated, we're, we've written down our, our perfect voiceover day, right and so, and then we've worked backwards to the steps. And so what would be next after that, tom, how do do we need to? We probably need to take time to evaluate whether we've accomplished those steps right, absolutely.   Once we've written them down and we've and we've developed our to-do list. Now we've got to go back, maybe in a week or so or in a you know at the end of the day and say did I accomplish my tasks?   0:27:07 - Tom Yes, self-evaluation and self-reflection is one of the most important skill sets to be an effective voice actor. Because you don't have. Unless you're part of my mentorship program or you're mentoring with Ann, you are working in a vacuum. You need to develop the ability to metacognate, which is the ability to stand outside of thank you, the ability to stand outside of yourself. Look at yourself objectively and say did I do what I assigned to my assigned for myself? Did I do it? Well, if I didn't do it, why didn't I do it? Was there a logistical problem? Was a financial problem? Was there a motivational problem? You know and find out why, why you do what you do, how you tick, and there's a time to be kind to yourself and there's a kind, there's a time to be tough on yourself. You know.   0:27:56 - Anne And so taking I think I've always tough on myself, but you're right, yeah.   0:27:59 - Tom You have to be able to. You have to be able to do both, because we're all human. We all have different energy levels and emotional states that fluctuate constantly throughout the day, week, month, year, decade, and we need to be accommodating for that. Oh, mercury's in retrograde today, so I'm not going to get my invoicing done, or what were you?   0:28:18 - Anne know oh, technology sucks, technology sucks. You know what I mean?   0:28:21 - Tom Oh, great retrograde, yeah, you know but if you find yourself making excuses for yourself about why you're not doing things, then you are not being effective.   0:28:28 - Anne Because I have an, I have an action for it. That's a whole another podcast right there.   0:28:32 - Tom Yeah, I have my action plan right here and I don't check off every single box. I get about 80% of my action plan stuff done every month, dating back to 2006. And sometimes it's-.   0:28:42 - Anne Do you have records from back then? Do you do you have a-.   0:28:45 - Tom I have a binder right here with every single one of these. So January 2006-. I love it Was my first printed one and I've done 12 a year since 2006 and it's in this binder right over here.   0:28:54 - Anne It does not surprise me that you love numbers too. I love numbers, right, yeah, see, and so that I feel goes along with.   Now I'm not so much, although I will. I will share my book is out there, but I have my to-do list that I love to cross things off on and I have my planner where I like to write my goals down. I'm not always as good as I propose to be, but, yeah, I think that's super important. But, wow, what a great conversation. I want to talk to you more, in more detail, about a lot of these steps because I think they're super important in our series. So, tom, thank you so so much for joining me for our first, our first in a series of real bosses.   0:29:35 - Tom Yeah.   0:29:36 - Anne So, guys, if you, I have a simple mission for you, but one that has big impact 100 voices, one hour, $10,000. Four times a year. Do you want to know what I'm talking about? Visit 100voiceswhocareorg to find out more and to join us. And big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. We love IPDTL. We love connecting with bosses like Tom and myself. Find out more at IPDTLcom. Bosses, have an amazing week and be real bosses. We'll see you next week. Bye, bye.   Transcribed by https://podium.page

In this episode, Anne is joined by special guest Tom Dheere, the Vo Strategist. With over 25 years of experience, Tom knows how to ride the waves of ever-changing technology and market shifts. Discover the secrets to driving traffic to your website through social media, blogging, and top-notch content to keep you ahead of the pack. They share how old-school tactics like cold calling and email marketing might not be cutting it anymore. Boost your confidence with Tom's killer advice on negotiating rates like a BOSS and flipping your approach to snag the rates you truly deserve. Plus, we unveil the controversial truth about Fiverr and how this billion-dollar beast can actually help you charge industry-standard rates… Transcript 0:00:01 - Anne Hey, hey everyone, Welcome to the VO Boss podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am excited to welcome voiceover business and marketing consultant and VO strategist, Tom Dheere, to the show. As a voice actor with over 25 years of experience, Tom brings a wealth of voiceover knowledge to the table In his one-on-one strategy sessions, diagnostic sessions those sound interesting and his mentorship program, As well as speaker appearances at industry conferences. Tom, I am so excited to have you here today. Thanks for joining me.    0:00:34 - Tom Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to chat with you, Anne.    0:00:37 - Anne Tom, you know it's chaotic out there.    I'll tell you what there's disruption, There's, I say, mass panic, and I think that today more than ever, as entrepreneurs and business owners, we need a strategy more than ever. So I am super duper glad that we are here talking to you about that. So let's get a feel for your take on the industry, because you've been in the industry for gosh over 25 years and I'm sure you've seen it evolve, kind of like myself. Talk a little bit about your experience in this industry and how it's evolved over the years.    0:01:20 - Tom Okay, well, i decided I wanted to be a voice actor in 1994, so I was a graduate school dropout, so I got my. I decided in late 94, got most of my. I got my training in my voiceover demo in 95, which is a cassette tape. I still have it here in the drawer. And then when I got that demo, my coach gave me a little certificate and gave me a stack of Xerox copies of production company listings and said you know, start your good, your cold calling good luck. Because in 1995, there was I mean there was an internet and some websites, but there was no.    0:01:57 - Anne Yeah, there was no social media.    0:01:59 - Tom There was no online casting sites, there was no home recording, there was no digital delivery of audio files, there was no phone patch, there was ISDN. But like, who had that besides? like the, the, the rate, you know the major TV networks, you know. So you had to buy cold called and I called, called for a year until I got my first gig, so until I joined voice 123 in 2006,. That was pretty much, that was pretty much the only way to do it, and also I was going into New York city once a week. Voiceover is unlimited and you'd pay whatever was $35 for a 10 minute meet.    Meet up with a casting director or an agent or a manager which is how I got my, my first manager, who I still have to this day, 17, 18 years later. So my cassette turned into a CD which I was duplicating, burning you know. Oh God, the my post office hated my guts.    0:03:04 - Anne Now mail. Yes, cause.    0:03:06 - Tom I had a long a lawn bag of padded mailers and they'd be like, oh geez, here comes Tom again and like, all right, everybody just gets to the side and just tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick you know cause?    0:03:15 - Anne I was just constantly sending it out, yeah, and then that evolved into MP threes. So let's, let's, let's start. I think that there's, there's something, there's a parallel here, a disruption right. Some disruption in the industry right. So it evolved from a tape into a CD, into today, which is all digital right.    0:03:36 - Tom Right And then and then pay a voice bank and voicescom and voice 123 disrupted the voiceover again, again and you know, and now AI is disrupting the voiceover industry. But this is what I say and all my students.    0:03:52 - Anne A pattern Tom. A pattern Tom. Yes, there is a pattern throughout the years, so I don't think that disruption is going to stop anytime soon.    0:04:00 - Tom No, it's going to keep going, and what I like to say is that when the light bulb was invented, it disrupted the candle making industry and nobody cared about the candle makers, except for the candle makers.    0:04:13 - Anne People were saying Oh good I can.    0:04:15 - Tom I can read a book at night without my house burning down. Like that's where everybody was coming from. It's like okay. So the candle makers had a choice They could go to Congress to try to get light bulbs outlawed, they could go la, la, la, la la which a lot of voice actors have been doing especially literally today, this week, on the voiceover groups. Or they could adjust to their candle making industry to accommodate certain parts of the light bulb industry, or they could convert their candle making factory into a light bulb making factory.    So, you can either fight it, ignore it, adapt to it or embrace it. And the voice actors that are going to still be standing for lack of a better term on the other side of AI and whatever the next disruption is, the ones that are adapting, evolving learning, growing, operating from a position of abundance as opposed to a position of scarcity, and not shouting at the rain. They're the ones that are still going to have a viable voiceover career. Yeah.    0:05:08 - Anne Yeah, i'll tell you, it has really it has really wreaked havoc, and I think that you know, gosh, you know, and I've been following it and following it And you know, two years ago on the VO Bus podcast, i mean, i think that you and I can both agree to do due diligence and educate yourself on, you know, evolving technologies or disruptive technologies that can affect your business, and that is so very important that we, you know, truly educate ourselves. And I had done a series of interviews, of which I'm still doing periodically, with you know, large companies, people that are working in synthetic voices, ai companies to kind of get to ask those tough questions like Hey, what's happening here? And are you, you know, is there transparency? You know, what are your ethics? You know, do you have, you know, objectives in terms of protecting?    you know, voices as you go, and I think it's been an educational journey for not just me as a business owner and a voice artist, but for the AI companies as well. I think we are all learning and evolving with technology as we go, and I've had experience doing that myself, you know, working in technology for over 20 years, and I still consider myself working in technology. So, in terms of you know your, your students and and your clients. What is your? what is your biggest tip now for, let's say, people coming into the industry, how to get a handle on this industry and be successful.    0:06:43 - Tom Do as much research as you possibly can. Work with professional coaches who are boots on the ground blue collar voice actors as well like who are actively engaged in the voiceover industry. That's not to say that there's not genre coaches out there, like Mary Lynn Wissner, for example, who is not a voice actor but is an amazing coach.    There are only a handful of people like that, as you know and but people who are actively, who have to continue to grow and evolve with the industry to maintain relevance in the industry And be better than the AIs on a storytelling level as quickly as you possibly can.    0:07:23 - Anne Yeah.    0:07:24 - Tom Because they are getting better and better almost daily. Are they going to completely take over the entire voiceover industry? No, Are they going to. you know, take away a percentage of certain jobs of certain genres, mostly for entry level voice actors Yes, yeah. The trick is how do you get good enough that, when you're starting your voiceover journey, that you're already better than the AIs, so you can kind of leap over?    that hurdle and be a human narrator as quickly as possible. That's going to be the challenge. What I think that means is the people that are more naturally talented, the people who have theater training, the people who have on-camera film and TV training, improv training, those people coming into the industry which are all parts of what defines a better actor are going to have a better chance than people just coming at it from other sectors. Frankly, i mean, a registered nurse has every right to stop being a nurse and try to do medical narration for a living, and I encourage that. I've trained people like that, you've trained people like that over the years, but it's going to get harder and harder if they don't have natural storytelling billing, natural storytelling ability, or they haven't been trained in non-voiceover storytelling. So get as many acting classes as you can under your belt. Get as many improv classes under your belt so you can learn how to make strong choices quickly, which is a key to being a good narrator. Understand the technology and maybe get your voice cloned as quickly as possible.    0:09:05 - Anne That's very interesting. I'm finding that I do have some people, because I did the series and I've been investigating and educating myself with AI companies for the past few years, i've had people ask me, and not all of them want to shout the rafters saying, oh, i'm out there trying to figure out how to get my voice cloned or how to get a synthetic voice. But what's interesting is that synthetic voice, the companies that are creating synthetic voices. They're also evolving and changing on a daily basis, and so it's really important that, as voice actors, you keep up with that, and I'm always a big proponent of if you have a business, you want to understand the market in which you're selling And so part of that market. If the market is changing. And, tom, as a business person, you're all about researching and looking at the market as it evolves over the years. And where do you see the market heading in terms of voiceover casting? Where are we going to be able to get these jobs, or where can voiceover talent find work? And I know that's the golden question, right.    People like they expect a five-minute answer from me. Where can I get voiceover work? But where do you see that evolving and heading as we move on in the future?    0:10:27 - Tom That's a great question, Anne. There will still always be a place for needing agents, managers and casting directors for high end work, class A national commercials, high end video games and cartoons, high end promo, high end in show narration. I don't think that's ever. I don't think that's ever going to change. Casting sites are going to continue to be as relevant as ever and is still the the most effective way for new voice actors to onboard into the industry. Because you can. All you need is a credit card and you could just join the casting site and start auditioning immediately.    The interesting part is going to be the direct marketing part which. I learned the hard way when all of my direct marketing strategies, which worked like gangbusters in 2013, 14, 15, 16, all of a sudden stopped working because, so many of those production companies recording studios that I had worked with through direct marketing strategies have moved to online casting sites just because it's easier for them to curate a roster, manage talent, manage projects.    So, um, ai is going to take a chunk out of online casting sites. It's going to take a chunk out of direct marketing clients the low end stuff and stuff that would never normally get like there's audio books out there that will never get produced unless it's an AI voice.    0:11:51 - Anne It's going to do it out of interest or ergonomics or just sure, whatever that sure whatever the rights holder can, um, can afford.    0:11:57 - Tom So you also new students, when it comes to this kind of strategies, need to figure out what. How does what a success look like for them, Which genres do they want to be successful in And which portals do they need to access to become successful in said genres? So if you want to be on the next Pixar film or be in the next fallout video game, you need to get a lot of training, you need to get a top notch demo, you need to get high end agents and you're going to eventually need to join SAG-AFTRA. That's not. That's not changing for everybody else. You know the pendulum is going to swing, stuff's going to move or stuff's going to move around, but you're still going to need you're still going to need the aforementioned good training, good demo good website, good home recording.    Um, and the ability to keep up with industry's trends by reading blogs, watching podcasts like this um, working with coaches like, like you and me. Um, it's going to what, what percentage of what genre is going to get lost and where you're going to need to go for each of it. I mean, who can? who can say, but if you have, if, if online casting sites stigmatize you, get over it get in there develop your skills develop your auditioning skills.    0:13:10 - Anne That was it. That was the nugget of the day. That was awesome Sound right of the day. Yeah.    0:13:14 - Tom Because online casting sites like I'm. I know because I'm on voice 123. I audition every day and I regularly see clients that are posting casting notices that I used to work with five, six, seven, eight, 10 years ago, who won't take my phone calls anymore because they're on casting sites. That's the only way they'll talk to me And I'm totally fine with that, because you said you got to go where the buyers are. you got to go where the market is going. That's where they are. That's where you need to be.    0:13:41 - Anne I think there's something to say If we just tell every boss out there, you know, first of all, um, be a boss, right And understand that you really have to stop. And I think, take a uh, uh, take a look at the bigger picture. The bigger picture is we're providing a product, uh, to a market, the market. You have to evolve with the market. It's not about you know, uh, oh, my gosh, it's, it's, it's you know your voice over business and your craft and your and your art, which I completely, yes, it is. But honestly, you know, at the end of the day, right, i want to pay my mortgage, right, and if I want to have a business, it always amazes me, tom, how you know you go to conferences and I know you know when, when, cause I used to, i used to teach business classes as well. Whenever you go to see which classes fill up first, it's always the performance classes, it's always the cartoon and video game.    Always those because, well, okay, so they're fine, they they allow the creativity. But, honestly, you know, beyond the fun and the creativity in the booth, you've got to be able to run a business that will make a profit. If you want to write, if you want to do this as a business and you want and you're serious about it I mean, if it's you know, if it's a hobby, that's a difference, that's a different podcast. Sure, you know, and I think that you know what you offer, you know, to people as a, a VO strategist or even just a business strategist, is invaluable. And I truly think, bosses out there, you've got to step back.    Um, and yes, of course you know, create the product that the market is demanding Right, and and also know how to run your business right. And so I love your story that you know the people that used to take your calls no longer will take your calls. You know your calls and now you have to work with them on the platform, and mostly because it's easy and more convenient And I will be the first person to ask any of you bosses out there if you're using any form of AI to do anything. Let's say, create a blog post or, you know, maybe play around and change your headshot And you're using the technology to make your jobs better, more efficient, then you cannot be the person that gets upset if you're not, let's say, evolving along with the synthetic voice aspect of it.    0:16:06 - Tom You know, absolutely.    0:16:08 - Anne I mean. So, as we talk to peer to peer, i think, or pay to play platforms, i think online casting is absolutely. What about Tom? let's talk about what about your website, your online platform, your online storefront? What do you think about that in terms of being able to market your business?    0:16:29 - Tom Okay, it's funny because people coming into the industry, you know most of them realize they need some kind of training and then they realize, oh, i need to record from home. You know I need a demo. And then almost all of them think, well, i need some kind of website. But they don't know why they need a website. They don't know how to build a website and they don't know what is necessary to create an effective website. What I tell my students is that no one is gonna find your website nobody.    There are literally tens of thousands of voice actor websites out there. The odds of them typing in some stuff on Google, bing, yahoo and finding you is virtually impossible. I mean, tomdeercom is over 20 years old and I've been blogging for 14 years, so I've got really good SEO and I rarely get found on it. Anyway, the point is, your job as a voice actor is to drive traffic to your website, and you do that by being on social media, blogging, creating a presence, creating conversations, creating quality content to get them to notice you. And then there's email marketing and cold calling, which I'm sure you realize that they don't work a fraction as well as they used to, because why should they answer the phone of some voice actor trying to talk about themselves, when they're just gonna go to an online casting site to cast their next project. They're already more than halfway down the sales funnel anyway on an online casting site, as opposed to trying to get them into the sales funnel through cold calling and all that.    So driving traffic to your website is extremely important, and then get them to do the most important thing, which is download your demos.    0:18:12 - Anne Everything else, is irrelevant Or click it back. I mean, everything else is secondary to downloading the demo. Right, yeah, but now downloading the demo? now we've got there's the fear. There's now there's some fear that if we allow our audio, you know, freely out there and I, you know I have podcast, you have podcast. Anybody can download this podcast I've been doing it for six years and potentially turn it into a voice.    0:18:40 - Tom Okay, Look everybody. I've been doing this for 25 years. I have done thousands and thousands of voiceover projects. I've probably done tens of thousands of auditions over the years, I guarantee my voice has been cloned without my knowledge many times over.    I guarantee that auditions that I have you, that I have done, has been used for broadcast without my consent or without compensation. Every website that exists is going to get hacked at some point. None of our data is safe, it's just not. All you can do is do the best you can to mitigate your risk. try to be secure. I can't worry about submitting my demo and worrying about it getting cloned.    I mean if I, if I was worried about that, i wouldn't have a career. I would. I'd be quadruple bolting the door and hiding in the bathtub. There's just nothing you can do about it. So don't worry about don't worry about that. Put the demo out there. I mean because the the the odds of it happening are extremely slim, but the longer you're here, the more likely it's going to happen. It's just you know well.    0:19:45 - Anne Tom, i mean, i think I think really again, we we talk about that bad actors, um, which is so interesting in our industry. Now, the term bad actor, right. Had I not really delved in deep to talking to people outside of my own industry, i would not have known what the bad actor meant. Um, outside of, like the literal meaning of it, right, but the bad actors meaning those companies, right, or those people that may take advantage, unfair advantage, um, with the in in clone voices, without permission, create deep fakes, all of those things. There's always that possibility And I had such an interesting conversation the other day with Shyamala Praga, who is very well known in the AI industry.    Um, regarding, you know, laws and regulations and and instead of being reactive which is what we typically are right, reactive, something bad happens and then a law or you know some sort of policy is is established that then, you know, takes care of it. Um, really trying to again educate all of us, not just in our industry but everywhere, that, um, these things could potentially happen and we need to protect ourselves from bad things. Um, you know, what are your thoughts about? I mean, i, like, i really love your, your, your perspective on you can't be worrying about that all the time, but are there any steps that you would recommend to to, let's say, to protect um or to be cautious about that? I mean, i certainly am not going to make my demo not downloadable because I want it to be convenient for people to listen and buy.    0:21:20 - Tom You have to have it. It has to be downloadable because, when it comes to your direct marketing strategies and driving traffic to your website, the odds of them having a voiceover project for you right now, at the time that you have marketed to them successfully and they've actually gone to your website to review your demos, the odds of them actually having a gig for you is infinitesimally small. I can count, i think, on two fingers in 25 years that that's actually happened. Representation and online casting insights are for opportunities now. Direct marketing, driving traffic to your website is for opportunities.    later They're not going to remember you once they leave that website of yours You need to have. They need to walk away with the demo, so they stick it in a folder somewhere in their cloud or on their desktop, so when an opportunity comes along that you may be right, for your demo was right there for them to review, or if again another thing that I always like- to say is that, no matter what in a marketplace and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, there are I will pay for things that make my life easier and make my life more convenient.    0:22:25 - Anne So, for example, i hate, i always use this my lipstick. So my lipstick is reliable, dependable, stays on all day, i don't have to put it on again And I you know I use that as an example product. I pay a lot of money for this lipstick. Now I certainly feel that no matter. Look AI, you know pay to play sites, you know driving down, you know rates. I no matter what. If somebody likes and gangooza right and likes her product, they're going to pay the money and they're going to remember me and they're going to buy it again and again. I'd love to hear your thoughts.    0:22:58 - Tom You go to a department store and there's five pairs of shoes on on the shelf and four of them cost, you know, $75 and one of them cost $800.    Everybody immediately goes and looks at oh, what's this? What's the value of this? Why is it worth $800? Well, if they says it's worth $800, then clearly it must be worth $800. So I will happily spend $800 on this pair of shoes. So most people coming into the voiceover industry are broke and perceive themselves as an employee or a starving artist. They are already immediately devaluing themselves and training voice seekers to devalue them.    So it's a systems of, it's a systems of thought problem. And I'm not going to sit here and blow sunshine up everybody's butt and say you're special, you're wonderful, you're, you're going to. All your dreams are going to come true, because that's not what the VOStratigist does. This VOStratigist does not sell dreams. The VOStratigist sells reality.    My job is to give you objective data so you can set, you can make informed decisions about your voiceover career. But you want to do everything you can to set yourself up for success And the first step one is mindset. Know your worth. Know your worth based on your pure talent, know your worth based on your training, know your worth based on your experience. And know your worth based on what the industry standards are.    Sag After over here GVAA over there, Know what your worth is and comport yourself And it's maybe it's a little fake it till you make it. I don't. I'm not sure you can do that. Having confidence and being confident in your training and your talent and your understanding of the rates, That should empower you to make sure that people aren't buying stuff from you that are shopping in the wrong aisle.    0:24:56 - Anne And also, i would say, as a as a talent just coming in, i don't think you can expect to get into or to become a top tier you know, professional without making an investment. I mean, that's the other thing too. I cannot tell you how many people they'll be like. You know, i really need coaching, but I just I don't have any. You know, they don't have the budget they don't have And, and so in reality, there has to be those things in place. You can't expect to go in and make a ton of money without investing in yourself and investing in that, in that coaching that's going to help you to be the most human voice actor that you can be.    0:25:37 - Tom Patience is one of the most important skills that you need to have as a new voice actor. Everyone wants to start talking for money as quickly as possible and using their funny cartoon voices that their dentist told them is hilarious And that's all. That's all great, but if you can't afford the training yet, build a budget create a savings plan.    be patient, find community theaters or summer theater programs that have free acting and improv training, and develop your foundation of storytelling skills while you're saving money to work with a professional coach like Anne, or work with a VO strategist you know a business marketing consultant like me. There's a ton of things that you can do. But if you dive in when you're not ready or you go with the first demo coach that you can afford and submit to that demo to those agents for the first time, it's not gonna go well.    It's not gonna go well. So I'll never tell anybody not to pursue their dreams, but I will tell everybody to be smart about pursuing their dreams by having. This is what I like to say no matter what you're doing in life, do it with both hands and on a flat surface. Be smart about it, i learned that when I tried to open an Amazon box with a pair of open scissors like this, which we've all done, Oh, yeah, yeah, not yeah. Both hands flat surface.    0:26:58 - Anne Very guilty of that. So then, let me talk a little. let's talk a little bit about rates, because what is your best advice for those actors who might be struggling to find work at their desired rates when you know there is this perceived? you know, race to the bottom, with technology disrupting What, how can they pivot their approach to succeed and get rates that they deserved?    0:27:21 - Tom Learn how to negotiate. And it's not like a Middle East Bazaar where you're haggling over the price of, you know, a goat or something.    It's just the better that you can understand the rate structure of voiceover on a session level and on a usage level, the better, the more empowered you are to educate your clients or potential clients, because for so many casting notices that I see, or so many emails hey, i found you on Google, whatever they've never cast a voiceover in their life.    They haven't the faintest idea what the ergonomics are, what project management is involved or what the rate structure is. Being experienced it's not necessarily a correlation between being professional and experienced. You don't have to be experienced to be professional To understand there is a rate structure. I understand what the rate structure is and I'm able to articulate it to somebody who has no idea how the voiceover industry works. The more that you can do that, the more empowered you are to get industry standard rates and the more empowered you are to educate voice seekers to value you and not let them use cheap rates. Well, i paid this guy five bucks. I'm gonna leverage it to get you to pay you five bucks where you say no, you don't do that You gotta think long term.    You have to value yourself and your fellow voice actors, because every time you accept a ratty rate, you're making it harder for everybody else. Every time you accept an industry standard rate, you're making it easier for everybody else.    0:28:51 - Anne Now, but okay. So then here's the question. Yes, i agree that there should be the thought process about the industry as a whole. However, you will always have those voice actors that it is their business, right? I'm a big proponent of saying mind your own business. That means, don't worry about how other people get their business. In that respect, though, do you know what I'm saying? I truly believe I want people to understand their worth in order to make a bold and take the challenge to actually negotiate that worth with a potential client. So, speaking of five bucks, i know that you had talked to me a little bit about an experiment that you had conducted using the online pay to play the F word, fiverr.    And I personally, i'm one of those people that thinks we need to talk about this because it is a viable marketplace in the well viable it exists in our industry. Let's put it that way you may not agree with it and you may not feel that it values your worth, but what were your findings? What do you think about Fiverr?    0:29:58 - Tom Okay, it had been coming up so much in conversations with my students, with my fellow voice actors, fellow coaches, producers, panelists at conferences And, like I said, my job as a video strategist is to collect objective data so I can help my students make thoughtful, informed decisions about how to move their voiceover business forward. Fiverr is real, it is here. It's a billion dollar company. There are thousands and thousands of voice actors on it. So I needed to understand what exactly it is, why it is and how it works. So I created an account, I followed the tutorials, i looked at YouTube videos, i built a profile and then you build what are called gigs And a gig is basically broken down by genre.    I will narrate I'm an American voice actor who will narrate your explainer video or e-learning module or whatever And then what you do is you build the rate, but you're breaking it down bit by bit. So This is what really fascinated me about it is if someone said to you and I've got an explainer video, how much do you charge? and you probably charge what? 400, 500, whatever sometime around there But if you actually broke down by dollar, how much it costs for you to record the video, how much it costs to edit the video, to clean up, process, format, save, deliver. Do retakes give you permission to use the video in a certain way on a certain platform? if you chop up that $400 into all those little individual things, that's basically what you're doing on Fiverr. So it could say base price $5, but then if you add deliver as a wave file, deliver it within 24 hours you know, we'll only get two retakes.    Mvp, I'll move you up to the front of the line, If you, then if you go da-da-da-da, then the total can be $400. It can be an industry standard rate. Fiverr saying oh, we get everything's for five bucks.    0:32:05 - Anne It's more of a marketing position than anything else. And if you think about that in reality, right, if they're going for that market for the people who don't right, who don't have a lot of money to spend and they want to go for lower priced, saying Fiverr and marketing themselves as Fiverr, get affordable, then absolutely I mean as a business they built for a market where there was a hole And yeah, and now of course, because they have so many voice artists on it right.    that increases their SEO value, which increases, you know, ease, convenience, of use, and so that's what makes them you know the force that they are in the industry.    0:32:49 - Tom Right. So there's three levels on Fiverr And if you earn a certain amount of money and a certain amount of timing, get a certain amount of ratings in a certain amount of time, then you go to the next level and then the top level and the people at the top level charge industry standard rates and they do fine. The trick is kind of punching through that membrane from the first level to the second, in the second to the third. I feel like that's where it can be challenging.    0:33:12 - Anne Yeah, and I feel like you'd have to work that, because I think you have to earn that right, you have to get so many ratings, and I feel like you'd have to actually work the platform for a bit so that you could get up the ratings, so that you could climb up the ladder, so that you could charge industry rates. But, although not impossible, it's a very interesting concept. And because we are talking about it, bosses, doesn't necessarily mean we are condoning that platform, i mean. But if you look at it from a business standpoint, it absolutely, you know it covered a hole in the market and logically I can see how that works.    I absolutely can see how that works Now, do I love that? it makes voiceover seem cheap? No, not at all. And I think to each and everyone out there, it is up to you to make that decision whether you want your brand associated with that brand, because that's a whole other way of doing business, right? So, again, you're almost working for the platform And then that platform represents your brand versus, let's say, for me, i've always been let's do it myself, and you know, seo for me.    I've been online for years and it's worked in my favor And I've built up a great clientele list And I'm very fortunate that I'm able to continue on that. And while I am a member of a lot of pay to place, i don't have time to actually audition. And you know, for me, email marketing well, it's probably not quite as effective. Well, it's hard to say. I still believe that there's effectiveness in email marketing if you've got the right message and you have the right subject line, because people have less and less of an attention span. But it's one of the reasons why I built the VO Boss Blast. It was a way to help direct market talent, so that they didn't, you know, and I basically started it for myself. Isn't that like every company.    0:35:05 - Tom Right, if you create a product you want, help You do it to serve your needs.    0:35:09 - Anne I did it because I was like I don't have time. I want to do the podcast, i want to do VOPs, i want to be you know, i'm coaching, so I don't have a ton of time, so let me just create a direct marketing product that I can use. And then, of course, i shared that.    0:35:24 - Tom I do want to say for the record I have not booked anything on Fiverr. I set up my gig, i made adjustments to my rates because you're supposed to refresh it and try to feed the algorithm. I couldn't. I also did the same exercise on Upwork and it worked similarly and I got the same results. I could not. I could not book anything. I guess that just means I'm not a particularly good voice actor.    0:35:47 - Anne No, I think it's because you didn't have 100% of your right time to really devote to it. I mean, that's what. I think That's a part of it.    0:35:55 - Tom And the other thing is understanding the economies of the voice seekers, absolutely.    0:35:59 - Anne Diversify the economies and understanding of you know, money and how it works, of the country of origin of the voice actor too, absolutely, and Tom, i'll be the first one to say I mean, we've been in this business a long time. If you were on Voice 123 in 2006, right, you remember? Freelancer.    0:36:17 - Tom Oh, i was on Freelancer. Oh good, so was I. And Elanzen and Guru, yeah, i was on all of them.    0:36:22 - Anne So all of those evolved into Fiverr.    Really, that's really it was that it was like who could bid the lowest right? And I will tell you that, as a you know, entering into the online space, i mean that's where I did get some jobs. Now, did I take jobs that were probably not what I was worth? Yeah, I did, i did, but I learned quickly, you know, and it was a tough, it was a tight, it was frustrating because it was always people under bidding And so you get that type of client, but what you do is you learn about where those clients right, those are the clients that don't value your product Not necessarily you but they don't value the product enough to pay the price right.    0:37:01 - Tom They want to pay the cheapest, the biggest of the pain they are.    0:37:04 - Anne Exactly, exactly So. Wow, what a great conversation, tom. This has been so wonderful and enlightening for the bosses out there. I'm quite sure, tom, how can people get in touch with you and work with you?    0:37:17 - Tom Oh, go to vostrategistcom. I encourage you to book a free 15 minute consult. We can talk about any part of the voiceover industry that you want. I also have a video shop where I've got closing in on 30 different videos covering everything in the voiceover industry, from time management to workflow to genre exploration to managing your finances. I also have a great mentorship program where you can do 30 minute check-ins with me once a week, once a month or twice a month. It also gives you access to some of those videos for free. But, yeah, book a session with me, free session with me at vostrategistcom, and I'd love to chat with you.    0:37:50 - Anne Good stuff, tom. Yeah, bosses, today more than ever we need a strategy for moving forward in our business. So go to it, tom. Thank you again. I would like to talk to you bosses about. As individuals, you know, it can seem difficult to make a huge impact, but as a group, we can contribute to the growth of our communities in ways that we never thought possible. Visit 100voiceswhocareorg to learn how And a big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl You too can connect in network like bosses like Tom and myself. Find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye-bye.    Transcribed by https://podium.page

In this week's episode of The Humane Marketing Show, we have the pleasure of speaking with Tom Greenwood about the concept of a Humane Web. Tom is the co-founder of Wholegrain Digital, a trailblazing digital agency that prioritizes sustainability as a Certified B Corp. Renowned for his expertise in business, design, and web technology's role in addressing environmental issues, Tom is also the author of the enlightening book, Sustainable Web Design. Throughout our thought-provoking conversation, we explore the meaning of a Humane Web, its connection to ethical design, and the crucial role website owners play in contributing to a more humane web. We delve into best practices for prioritizing user wellbeing while achieving marketing objectives, discuss the social and environmental impacts of AI, and highlight successful examples of organizations embracing the principles of the Humane Web. Tune in now to gain a fresh perspective on the future of digital marketing and web design. In this thought-provoking episode we discuss about: How Tom's newsletter readers described a humane web and what Tom's definition is What humane web has to do with ethical design Best practices for website owner to do their part to contribute to a Humane Web The winners of a humane web: humans AND the planet The social and environmental impacts of AI How Tom sees the future of humane web and much more [00:00:00] Sarah: Hello, humane marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non-pushy. [00:00:23] I'm Sarah z Croce, your hippie turn business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneer. Mama Bear of the Humane Marketing Circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you are ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like-minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what. [00:00:52] Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle. If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like-minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a Zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a. [00:01:15] Sustainable way we share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work, so that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane.marketing/circle, and if you prefer one-on-one support from me. [00:01:37] My humane business coaching could be just what you need, whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big. Idea like writing a book. I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. [00:01:58] If you love this podcast, [00:02:00] wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one-on-one client can find out more at humane.marketing/coaching. And finally, if you are a Marketing Impact pioneer and would like to bring Humane Marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website@humane.marketing. [00:02:30] Hello, friends. Welcome back to another episode on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Today's conversation fits under the P of People of the Humane Marketing Mandala. If you're a regular here, you kind of already know what I'm talking about. And these are the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. And if this is your first time here and you're curious about those seven Ps of humane marketing, you can go to humane.marketing/.[00:03:00] [00:03:00] One page, the number one and the word page, and download your one page marketing plan with the seven Ps of humane marketing. And this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different PS for your business. So today I'm speaking with Tom Greenwood about a humane Web. When I first saw him, uh, talk about this in one of his newsletters, I was like, well, I just have to talk to Tom, but before you, I tell you a bit more about Tom. [00:03:33] Allow me a moment to share that. I just. Open the doors again to my marketing like we're human, a k a, the Client Resonator program. So this is my flagship program. It's a three month program that is tightly linked actually to this podcast because it follows the same framework, the seven Ps of the Humane Marketing Mandala. [00:03:57] It's a deep dive into these seven [00:04:00] Ps to help you discover who you are. What your passion is and then bring more of you to your marketing. Market from within, so to speak. So we're really kind of flipping the script and starting with ourselves rather than the usual marketing program that immediately goes to your ideal client, the avatar, and then focuses on, uh, techniques and strategies. [00:04:26] We're starting with ourself first, so it's almost like a business. Or a personal development slash business development program. Uh, it's more than just marketing. It really is building the foundation for your life's work. And we start with passion, personal power, and then go into the outer. So we start with the inner and then go into the outer, the people, the product, the pricing, the promotion, and the partnership with others. [00:04:56] We go deep in an intimate group and. [00:05:00] Really come out transformed with a business that you are truly aligned with. It's a hybrid program with a 20 to 30 minute video to watch each week. Uh, that shares a bit of the framework, the principles. And a lot of, uh, transparent information and kind of lived experience for, from myself. [00:05:21] Uh, it comes also with a beautiful workbook, with journal prompts, and then we have a live group call on Zoom each week to go deeper. So we, I'm not teaching anything on these group calls. I we're just having the space together to go deeper, and that's why. It's such a transformational program because we really get to share and uh, and. [00:05:46] Yeah, make it unique for each person. Who is it for? Well, whether you have one year, five years, or more than 10 years business experience, it's never too late to go back to create the [00:06:00] foundation and is instead of just a business, really create your life's work so you can truly market from. Who you are because that's when things flow freely is when you market from who you are. [00:06:14] And the best is always to hear it from other participants and not just ha have it all from me. So have a look at humane.marketing/program. There are plenty of testimonials. And also a handful of in-depth case studies that really show you the transformation that people have gone through. Book a call with me now to discuss if this is the right next step for you at this point in your business. [00:06:43] Again, it's starting in August. Uh, August 24th. I'm only running this live. Twice per week. So this is the last time, uh, this year it's a three month program, and yes, I would absolutely love to talk to you and see and find out [00:07:00] whether this is a good fit for you at this time. Okay with that, back to the P of People in today's episode. [00:07:09] So Tom Greenwood is the co-founder of Whole Grain Digital, a certified B Corp and Green Trail Blazer. In the digital agency world, Tom is known for writing and speaking about how business design and web technology can be part of the solution. To end environmental issues and is the author of the book Sustainable Web Design. [00:07:34] So in this, uh, thought-provoking episode, we discussed how Tom's newsletter readers described a humane web and what Tom's definition is of a humane web. What humane web has to do with ethical design, ethical web design. Best practices for website owners to do their part, to contribute to a [00:08:00] humane web, the winners of a humane web, humans and the planet, the social en and environmental impacts of ai. [00:08:11] How Tom sees the future of Humane Web, and I guess also AI and so much more. Let's listen to Tom and this concept of a humane web, which to me just sounds delightful. Let's tune in. Hi Tom Sok. See you and hang out with you for a little while to talk all things humane, like I just said offline. Right. [00:08:38] That's basically what we're here for. I heard you talking about Humane Web and I'm like, I gotta have him on the podcast. You're [00:08:47] Tom: humane. Yeah. And I likewise. I was excited when you reached out and I was like, huh, humane Marketing, like, great. We're on the same page. Yeah, exactly. [00:08:55] Sarah: So the, the. The way. Well, I've been on your email list [00:09:00] for a while, and then obviously when I saw you talking and actually asking readers about how a humane web would look like to them, uh, that's when you got my attention and I'm like, yeah, let's talk about this. [00:09:16] So I'm curious, um, what kind of answers did you get to this question when you asked your readers? [00:09:23] Tom: Yeah, it was really interesting and it, I mean, we got a lot of enthusiastic responses and it was, it was quite mixed. It sort of ranged from people talking about how um, basically like technology should be designed to like, respect humans in terms of like their privacy and their safety and, um, to make things more accessible in a sort of tangible ways to people with kind of maybe like a more like pie in the sky vision of like, A web that is like more personalized and it's actually like, like more like fragmented and [00:10:00] decentralized rather than this sort of like homogenized big tech kind of internet that, that we've come to. [00:10:07] Um, and then other people talking about like more like the experience that we have as humans and that actually, what if it was more. You know, like a garden that you can, or a library, like a place that you can kind of step into and browse calmly, slowly, mindfully relax into like find beauty and inspiration rather than it being like this high paced kind of intense experience that much of, much of the internet's become. [00:10:39] So it was really interesting just hearing kind of like that breadth of. Perspectives on like what that might mean. [00:10:45] Sarah: Hmm. Yeah. So interesting. I, I love this image of either the library or the the garden and why not a library in a garden. Exactly. Yeah. That'd be even better. So what that means to me is, yeah, you, [00:11:00] you said it after like what we're experiencing is something so intense and probably, um, Yeah. [00:11:09] It's more like the in our face experience where if you are going to a library, you are the one in control. You are the one who's going to look for information rather than just showing up and everybody's throwing information at you. Right. Is is that also what you Yeah. Exactly. Felt [00:11:25] Tom: that's what happened? [00:11:26] Yeah. Mm-hmm. That, that you are really in control of your own journey and, and it's your experience. For you to have and for you to lead rather than mm-hmm. You're kind of entering into these worlds where you're very much kind of led down a path. I mean, at best guided down a path at worst manipulated, you know, to perform certain actions. [00:11:48] Um, Yeah. And sort of, yeah, put people back in the driving seat in control of their own experience, um, in more of a conscious way. [00:11:56] Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. That's so much aligned with humane marketing [00:12:00] because it, it, in the end, pretty much everything on the web is some type of marketing now, you know? Yeah. It's like wherever you go, You, they want you to enter into a funnel and then basically control your mind and control everything you do. [00:12:16] So it's, yeah, it's, it's very much the same in terms of humane marketing. It's like, well in, give the power back to the people. Right? Yeah. And it seems like that's the same, uh, idea here on, on Humane Web. So, so was that also your definition if you thought of it before? Or did you think of even something else, um, that you can add here? [00:12:41] Tom: Yeah, I think, I think it was a, a mixture of a mixture of things, but I think, I mean, the whole exploration and, and it's still an exploration to be honest at this stage, but the whole exploration that, that some of us at Whole Grain are doing into this concept of a humane web really came from sort of a [00:13:00] frustration that the internet kind of in the early days, Did seem like something that was gonna be very democratic and, you know, allow people to have a voice and controller and experience and share information with each other and build communities and, and it has all of that potential. [00:13:21] And yet more and more it feels like this thing where it's like it's, it's very much like a domain controlled by these big tech companies and where. You know, as you say, like we're we're manipulated into these funnels. It's like it's the web has become a web of funnels. Yeah. And, you know, and, and you enter into it kind of almost at your own risk. [00:13:41] And, and it's not an equal relationship. You're very much like you're going in on their terms. They're doing things behind the scenes to manipulate you that you don't even, you're not even aware of. There's like legal terms that you're effectively agreeing to just by. Like visiting a site or [00:14:00] using an online service. [00:14:01] Um, and then, and then, and then it's like, you know, there's the, also the fallout of like mental health and the fact that actually like, yeah, the internet should be serving us as humans, and yet you have this like, huge mental health crisis that's in par related to our relationship with digital technology and the internet. [00:14:19] And, and it's like, well, something's really wrong here that it's. There are like big corporations that are making vast profits out of the web, but at the same time that it's not that there's not any good things have come from it for, you know, most of us, like we all get some benefit from it day to day, but like on some level it feels like this is, this relationship isn't working like it's unhealthy. [00:14:42] Um, so what would it look like if we reimagine that and said, well, okay, let's kind of go back to the beginning. Take all of the. I guess take capitalism out of it for a minute and sort of say, well, like, let's just look at it as a technology. Like [00:14:58] Sarah: what? Remind me, Tom, [00:15:00] what was the name of the, it's escaping me right now. [00:15:03] Like when it first started, what did they call it? Um, Some term that I'm, I'm forgetting right now, but they actually said it, it's a conversation, you know, the web is a conversation. Um, yeah. So, so really, yeah. That's what you're saying. We need to go back to, right. To, to these early days of the [00:15:24] Tom: internet. [00:15:24] Exactly, exactly. Sort of like today's technology, but with yesterday's principles maybe. Yeah, [00:15:32] Sarah: yeah. Yeah. So much so. Yeah, so true. It's, it's, it's almost like we've. Made such a big, yeah, we lost our way. We lost our way. It's, it's kind of like kids who are given, you know, the, the, the gadget and then they just like lose their way because they're so excited about this s gadget and all, all the things you can do with it, and it ends up going the wrong way. [00:15:58] It ends up [00:16:00] going to almost like, Evil. Right? That's what we've done with this technology and, and or we, we can discuss whether it's you and I, it's definitely the, you know, the, there's always money behind it somehow now. Yeah. Where that was not the intent of, uh, the internet back in the days. [00:16:18] Tom: Yeah. I think that's the thing that it's, there's, there's so much potential to make money by manipulating people that. [00:16:27] In a way that you can't really do as easily in a physical environment. You know, like, you, like digital technology can kind of capture people for like, most of their waking hours. You know, like it's very addictive. You've got your phone with you like all the time. Um, it can ping you and like, you know, pull your attention back in when you start ignoring it in a way that like the physical world can't. [00:16:49] And yeah. And likewise, it's very easy to do like sneaky things in terms of how you. How you manipulate people to perform certain actions or to think a certain [00:17:00] way in ways that if you were in a physical environment, would be a bit more like, I, I think just a bit more tangible for people to sort of see what's going on and think, Hmm, this doesn't feel quite right. [00:17:10] I'm not sure I wanna shop here. Um, right. Um, You know, and even things like privacy terms, you know, that you kind of get sort of forced to like click a button to say like, I agree before you come in. But there's some like giant legal contract behind it that they know that nobody's gonna read. Whereas if you went into a shop, you enter the supermarket and they said, well, before you enter, like, please sign this 30 page contract. [00:17:32] Yeah. You'd probably be like, nah, I, I'm not, I'm not gonna shop there. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to the green grass. It's, you think about, it's insane. Yeah. Yeah. It is and it's very one-sided. It's sort of like, sign this or you can't come in. Um mm-hmm. So [00:17:47] Sarah: what's the solution? You're working on a solution? Um, what [00:17:53] Tom: is it? [00:17:53] Well, to say we're working on a solution might be overstating it, but we're exploring what [00:18:00] alternatives might look like and I think, I think there are. Like, none of this is like necessary, you know, like we talked about kind of the early days of the web when it wasn't like this on the web. I think the early, you know, pioneers of the web, like Tim Burners, Lee didn't envision it becoming like this. [00:18:17] No. Um, so I think inherently like the principal. Is that you could design and build digital services that don't treat people in this way. And start by actually thinking about like, how you serve their needs. What, what's really gonna be good for them as humans. And do it on the principle like you would've done like any kind of good business in the past where it's like, if we really serve people well, they'll keep coming back rather than if we, if we manipulate them and get 'em addicted. [00:18:49] Um, Then they'll keep coming back. Um, and I do think like there's some challenges in that for certain types of business models where the business models are [00:19:00] inherently based on that principle. Um, you know, some of the social media giants for example. It's like that's I. That's what they're built upon. But on the other hand, I think the vision we're trying to create is that if we actually created beautiful online spaces that treat people well and that they love being in and where they can build real, meaningful connections with other human beings or, or have space to just explore and learn things and, and enjoy things kind of on their own terms that. [00:19:30] Okay. They might not necessarily like, be able to compete head to head with, like Facebook for example. Um, on, but they're not trying to compete directly with Facebook. They're giving people an alternative. They're giving people a choice. It's like, go, you know, go and spend your time here because it respects you and it's a great place to be rather than go over there where you're being exploited. [00:19:49] Um, so yeah, it's so like we are, we are not, I don't think we're ever gonna be, be in a position where we can say, look, hey, look, we've got this solution, but I think we can let help with that [00:20:00] conversation of exploring the principles and trying to embed them into some of our own work and trying to like, You know, experiment with them and see what works and see what doesn't. [00:20:08] Sarah: And don't you think the change is gonna come from bottom up? Uh, not from the big ones. You know that they're not gonna change anything because their model works. It's exactly, it's not scarcity, uh, and addiction like you said. And so why would they change anything? Because the money keeps coming in. So they're not the ones who are going to change. [00:20:28] It's, it's the smaller ones and also, Us, the clients, the customers who are just fed up, uh, with being abused and manipulated. [00:20:38] Tom: Yeah, exactly. It's like the big tech companies have nothing. They have nothing to gain and everything to lose by, like, doing things in a more humane way, I think, which is really sad. [00:20:48] And I think it's a kind of, probably a reflection more of the broader mm-hmm. Structure of our society and economy. Um, but equally like we have a, we do have a lot of [00:21:00] personal. Like power over our own destiny. Like we're not actually like hooked into any of these things. Like we can choose to go wherever we want on the internet. [00:21:07] And um, and I think if people offer really humane alternatives, then hopefully, like a growing kind of number of people will start looking at those and thinking, yeah, okay, this feels like a better place to be. Totally. [00:21:24] Sarah: And, and I think what I've actually seen in the marketing world is that, Even small, uh, companies, one person companies, entrepreneurs, since the only models we had were the big. [00:21:39] Tech companies and the, you know, the, the ones that are basically manipulating everybody. This became the going model. Yeah. Everybody started using, even on the very small business level, using the same kind of, uh, you know, scarcity and, and manipulative approaches. Yeah. So over the last 20 years, um, [00:22:00] This just became the norm, right? [00:22:02] That, yeah, it was just a given. If you were in business, that's the way you had to market and, and, and use technology and, and, and all that and all actually all the tech that I'm using in my business, you know, where I'm trying so hard to create a humane business, the tech, uh, so I'm talking like shopping carts or, or e-learning programs. [00:22:26] It's all built on non-human, uh, principles. Yeah. It's all built on the idea. Let's get as many people in and seldom our crap. Yeah. [00:22:37] Tom: Basically. [00:22:38] Sarah: And it, and it's just really hard to actually use technology and yet doing in a, doing it in a humane way. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's really, really hard. [00:22:49] Tom: I think one of the sort of, I guess sort of classically, one of the. [00:22:54] The, the alternatives to that kind of hyper commercial model has in the, in the digital [00:23:00] space, has been the open source world, which is mm-hmm. You know, people building things with people for the people, um, and largely giving them away for free so that everybody can benefit from them. And I think that is probably where, like the solutions will come from. [00:23:15] Um, I understand. Mm-hmm. But, but as you sort of. Highlighted, like even some of those things have gone more in that kind of commercial direction just because that's the way things are done and, and some of those open source projects, as brilliant as they might be, have some sort of like commercial affiliation that sort of funds some of that community work. [00:23:36] And so the way that the projects are led has a bias towards like feeding that like kind of. Parent company or, um, whatever it might be, right? But, but I do think like that the, in pr in principle, the sort of the open source world is probably like the best, um, [00:24:00] place to, to get like a groundswell of, um, kind of bottom up change. [00:24:07] Sarah: I agree. Because it's also. You know, it's the people with the same values who come to create the solution and just give and, you know, know and trust and somewhere the money will come from. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that I have to exploit, um, uh, clients or, or potential, uh, customers. Yeah, [00:24:27] Tom: exactly. Yeah. [00:24:29] Sarah: So, so far we've talked about basically, uh, the win-win of the, the client and the seller, right? [00:24:38] Um, What I talk about and also what you were talking about is also, uh, a third win, which is the win for the planet. Yeah. Um, so talk to us how a humane web, and then maybe you can also talk a little bit about, um, web design, because that's also, uh, part of your expertise. Where is the [00:25:00] planet stand right now and how do we make it a winner as well in this [00:25:06] Tom: equation? [00:25:07] Yeah. So the, the environmental aspect is uh, something that's sort of, I think been left out of the conversation in the digital world largely until quite recently. And, and I think that's probably for a variety of reasons, partly because digital technology is relative relatively new in terms of its impact on our lives. [00:25:28] Um, but also because a lot of the environmental impact is sort of out of sight and out of mind. Um, You don't have like a chimney or an exhaust pipe on your computer and you know, it's sort of, it, it's a lot of, it's behind the scenes and we use terms like virtual, um, and the cloud as if like, the internet doesn't really exist, but it, it is a huge physical system. [00:25:52] You know, telecoms, networks that span the entire planet, um, satellites in space, like thousands of huge data [00:26:00] centers around the world. Billions of devices connected to the networks. So, If you take it as one big machine, it is the biggest machine that humans have ever created. And, and it consumes a huge amount of electricity. [00:26:13] You know, roughly the amount of electricity is the whole of the United Kingdom. Um, if you took it as one thing and the United Kingdom is like kind of one of the 10 biggest economies in the world. So that's, that's pretty crazy when you think about it. And. When you, uh, when you put that in terms of carbon emissions, which is essentially the emissions of producing all of that energy, um, it's, it's estimated generally somewhere between two and 4% of global carbon emissions, which is a lot because like aviation, which a lot of people think, you know, aviation's a serious problem, which it is. [00:26:49] Aviation is about 2% of global cognitions. Global shipping is about 2%. Um, I think steel is about, steel production is about 7%. So when you put, [00:27:00] you know, put that in context of basically the internet being somewhere in the range of two to 4%, um, and growing rapidly, especially with like the advent of, of, of AI and machine learning. [00:27:10] Um, it's, it's something that needs to be talked about. Um, and it hasn't really been talked about much until like the last two, three years really. Yeah, that's [00:27:25] Sarah: completely how I feel. I feel like this has just, yeah, probably emerged. Three years ago for me, where before I was like, well, I'm a virtual, you know, business owner, so I don't create any, any kind of problems. [00:27:40] And, and then starting to realize, okay, so, you know, there's all these different players that actually do, uh, impact how much carbon emissions I have. And, and you know, this was a, a whole. Transitions switching to, uh, a green or a greener host and, [00:28:00] and like making my website lighter and still working on that. [00:28:03] It's, it's like things that. You never think about just uploading, you know, two megabyte pictures on your website. Yeah. And then when you start to realize, wait a minute, they have to be hosted somewhere. And the, uh, and the server obviously runs on electricity, so every time you know this, this is creating carbon emissions. [00:28:24] So, so yeah. Tell us about ethical, um, you know, web design. Like what, what does that. Kind of just maybe a few really pragmatic tips that people can do right now to Yeah. Work on their website on, or at least become aware of that. Yeah. [00:28:44] Tom: You mean specifically from the environmental perspective? Yeah. Mm-hmm. [00:28:47] Yeah. So I mean, I think the, the, the way I find most helpful to think about it is that there's, there's a lot of waste on the internet. Um, And waste isn't good for [00:29:00] anybody, like any form of waste. And, but specifically in the internet, that waste generally is if you're wasting data, then you're wasting, you're wasting energy, um, which is bad for the environment, but it also has other. [00:29:14] Kind of commercial impacts and user experience impacts and so on. But that waste can come in a number of forms. Like first of all, like you just mentioned, you know, like having files that are just unnecessarily large, like image files, video files that are either like, maybe they're not required at all, but even if they are required, maybe they're, um, which is larger than they need to be, maybe they're, um, they're not optimized well, maybe they're not in like the most efficient file format. [00:29:42] Um, so. Looking at things like that. Um, things like tracking scripts. Tracking scripts can like be more, they can use up more data sometimes than like an entire, the actual webpage that you see. The stuff behind the scenes. And this comes into like the humane aspect as well. [00:30:00] The stuff behind the scenes that's like harvesting all of your data. [00:30:02] Um, they can actually be more code in there than there is in the actual, like, visible webpage that you're viewing. [00:30:09] Sarah: So you mean like Facebook pixel tracking, that kind of stuff. [00:30:13] Tom: Yeah. All that kind of stuff. All that kind of like ad personalizations, advert, you know, advertising scripts and mm-hmm. Things like that. [00:30:20] Um, wow. And the, and, and, and that's, I, I think that's kind of an interesting one to think about because it's, It's using energy in a number of places and not for your benefit. So you've got basically, like the advertising scripts have to be stored somewhere, like in a data center. Then they have to be sent over the internet, which uses energy to get to you. [00:30:43] Um, then they use energy on your device, which is your electricity that you paid for, um, to like spy on you or manipulate you by like, you know, manipulating the content. Um, and then they take the data, they. They've, they've [00:31:00] harvested about you and then use more energy to ship it back over the internet where it gets stored and analyzed in a data center. [00:31:06] Um, so, so like things like that where there's like, I mean things like that. There's a, there's a, there's a, there's a relationship between the environmental and there's like human aspect. But I think if you're designing something, actually being really mindful about tracking scripts is really important. [00:31:22] Cuz sometimes a lot of websites aren't even necessarily doing it. For good reasons. It's just like, oh, I've got a website so I'll stick Google Analytics on it. Um, and Google's really benefiting from that by getting all of that data. But you might not even, some people don't even really look at that data. [00:31:37] So I think things like that are good to think about. Also, from the environmental point of view, like where you host your website, you mentioned moving your website to a hosting provider that has a commitment to powering their data centers with renewable energy. That's kind of a. I'm not gonna say it's an easy win because depends whether like [00:32:00] how easy you find it to actually migrate your website, but um, usually they really help you with that. [00:32:04] Yeah, they normally it will help you like at do the migration. So it can be, it can be a low hanging fruit to reduce the environmental impact. Um, and I think just from a content creation point of view, just sort of being mindful about, um, like creating. Easy user journeys for people so they can find what they're looking for easily not creating unnecessary content, um, just for the sake of like search engines, for example, but actually making sure that your content is really tailored to humans and, and, and you're not doing things like putting in images of like just, um, like stock photography of people pointing at a whiteboard because you feel like you need to fill a space on the page. [00:32:47] You know, just be really mindful about. Like justifying the existence of everything. Um, if you can justify why it's there, then, you know, great. Um, but if you can't, then, um, obviously if [00:33:00] in doubt, leave it out. Um, it's sort of a simple mantra to the identifying and eliminating waste. [00:33:08] Sarah: It's so interesting because basically also here you're saying, let's go back to simplicity and, and basics and. [00:33:15] You know, simple design rather than cluttered, obnoxious, you know, too much content design. [00:33:22] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think that's e just sort of, again, going back to the human perspective, that can be much easier on the mind as well. Yeah. Um, it's [00:33:31] Sarah: relaxing. It's more relaxing, right. Than Yeah. Having much content [00:33:37] Tom: on it all the, all the time. [00:33:38] Exactly. I think, you know, there's a lot of problems with just sort of overstimulation, um, On the internet. So, so I think that there's a, again, another synergy between sort of designing for the environment and designing for humans there. [00:33:52] Sarah: Yeah. You, uh, just a minute ago, you, you kind of addressed ai, uh, [00:34:00] And, and I, um, there's another great article that you actually published with a conversation between you and chat c p t about, um, the impact of ai, uh, to the environment and, and social, uh, impact and all of that. [00:34:17] Um, yeah, tell us a little bit about that. Uh, in, in, just in general, how AI impacts all of what we just [00:34:26] Tom: discussed. Yeah, so I, it was, I thought it would be really interesting just to sort of a ask an AI about the potential risks of AI and see, to see what it came back with. Um, I thought maybe I'll learn something, maybe it would teach me something. [00:34:44] I don't know. Um, maybe it will be biased. Um, um, I was actually like sort of pleasantly surprised that its answers seemed quite thorough and quite. Quite honest, um, in identifying that there is [00:35:00] like potentially a huge energy cost to AI in terms of just how much computing, um, power it needs, um, both to train the models and run the models. [00:35:11] Um, I think it gave me a figure of to train G P D three required, I think 500. CPU years, which is effectively like running a cpu, running a, running a computer for 500 years to train one model. Um, so it was, it was quite honest in, in that it did also highlight that there's potential benefits, um, from an environmental point of view. [00:35:33] If you can use that AI then to help humanity solve. Environmental problems and make other things more efficient, which I think is absolutely true. Um, but it also highlighted that the flip side of that is that it's all about what we choose to do with it. Like you could choose to use AI to like, to, to extract more fossil fuels from, from the ground, which is what the fossil fuel companies are using it for. [00:35:57] Um, and in fact, there was a big conference, I [00:36:00] think run by Amazon. Um, Specifically about that, like inviting all the fossil fuel companies to, to see what, how they could, how they could like, fi, discover and extract more oil. Um, wow. So, so that, that's kind of interesting that it, it like chat, G B T itself highlighted that. [00:36:19] Um, but then it also, like I asked it about sort of social impacts and it did, it did sort of, Quite honestly, like, explain that like, yeah, there's potential risk to people's jobs, um, in terms of being replaced by ai. There's risks of bias. There's risks of, um, big temp big tech companies, um, having more and more power because essentially like whoever has control of the AI has more power over a society and the, and the potential to like manipulate public opinion and, and potentially even influence democracy, which is something that it did. [00:36:57] Bring up. So, um, [00:37:00] yeah, I think it was quite well rounded I felt, in terms of what it highlighted. And of course, it's not really a, it's not a person. And that's the thing that it's like really hard to like get your head around when you start doing something, like trying to have a conversation with it. It's like, well, hard to like [00:37:13] Sarah: it or dislike it, you know? [00:37:15] Yeah, [00:37:16] Tom: right. I've, I've set myself a rule that I'm like, when if I did, you know, like when I did that, To not say thank you cause it sounds really simple, but as soon as, but you ask a question and you get an answer back that sounds like a human wrote you a message back. Right. And it's really easy to slip into that thing of thinking there's a person on the other side when there's not. [00:37:37] Um, and I don't know if you've seen the film X Mcna. Um, I haven't. It, it's, it, I mean, I think it's, I only watched it earlier this year because it sort of felt like this is the time in history where, The science fiction is suddenly catching up. Yeah. Like, like real life is mirroring science fiction and [00:38:00] Yeah. [00:38:00] It's, it's a film about, and like an, an AI that's been developed and um, and humans building relationships with it and the, and the boundaries between what's human and what's not being blurred and how that. That's a slippery slope, basically. Um, I won't spoil it for you, but Okay. But I, yeah, it's a, i I, it's a, it's a fascinating and very well made film, um, on this topic. [00:38:30] Yeah, [00:38:31] Sarah: I'll look it up and I'll definitely link to, to that article, the interview with, um, chat G p t, um, as we're kind of. Coming to close here. I I'm, I'm just, I always feel like, oh, so it's such a heavy topic. Right? And, um, when we started recording, um, offline, I told you I tried just to focus on the positive things. [00:38:58] So let's, let's do that [00:39:00] here as well. How do you see the future of Humane Web and, and what can we do to, you know, kind of counter effect the big tech and. The big companies and, and even if it's just in our own little bubble, but at least we're creating that vision and who knows what will come out of it, but at least we're living in that vision already. [00:39:25] What can we do? And, and then Yeah. Uh, from there, how do you see it evolve? Yeah, [00:39:30] Tom: sure. I, I think the main thing we can do is first, first of all, like stop and think about like what we. What we need as humans and how the technology can serve us, rather than the standard model now, which is sort of like, how do, how do we serve the technology? [00:39:49] Um, and you, you know, you spoke about it earlier about how. We go down this route of like, now there's like an established model of like how the [00:40:00] internet works and how the business models on the internet work being like those big tech companies. And so there's just a natural inclination to mirror that and just copy it. [00:40:10] And I think the, the best thing we can do is actually just stop and think, look inside ourselves about like, what would it look like if it was really serving my needs and serving the needs of of others. And actually just have the confidence to try to do things differently and not just copy the, kind of the standard template of how things are done these days. [00:40:32] Um, and I think if more and more people do that and. And importantly, more and more people share that and tell the story of how they're thinking about it and why they're doing things differently. Um, I think that's really powerful cuz then it can create that sort of like ground up change. Um, both in the, the way that people are thinking about the internet as well as the way that people are interacting with it. [00:40:58] Sarah: Yeah, 100%. [00:41:00] And, and that's definitely what we're trying to do here, and I know you are as well, and, and. You might think, because what we're seeing is the big tech everywhere, right? Mm-hmm. But the more you kind of are in these circles, the more other little circles you discover and you're like, wow, there's actually people like us everywhere. [00:41:21] Yeah, exactly. So that always gives me hope. I'm like, well, two years ago I didn't know about Tom Greenwood, and now I know that you've been working on this for years and years, and so. You know, there's, there's millions of us and that, that gives me hope. So I, I, uh, I couldn't agree more with you to just kind of. [00:41:41] You said stop and, um, kind of step into the confidence of doing things differently. And I think yeah, that is key because it is scary to, you know, not do what everybody else is doing. Um, So, yeah, if, even if it's just, you know, for your website, [00:42:00] and that's where again, uh, I'm gonna go back to my website and, and check that I don't have any kind of tracking code in there because Yeah. [00:42:08] I, I don't need it. Right. So, um, definitely, uh, yeah, [00:42:13] Tom: to start exactly, start from where you are and, and, and ask yourself questions about like, what it is that you are doing. If you are creating things on the internet, um, and. And just see where it, see where it leads, see what other people are doing. Yeah. Um, I mean, even on the tracking script one, like there are alternatives. [00:42:32] Like there's one called Plausible, for example, um, which is like, it gives you some data about how, like how many people are using your website, what, like what countries they come from, what web browsers they use, what pages they visit. But it is completely anonymized. It's very, very lightweight, energy efficient. [00:42:51] Um, Script. So there are some like kind of, there are alternatives to some of these like big tech [00:43:00] solutions that are actually trying to balance the sort of the human and the environmental side as well as providing some useful functionality it for when people do need it. Um, yeah. So yeah, it's worth looking for those as well. [00:43:12] Thank [00:43:13] Sarah: you. I, I would really encourage listeners also to sign up to your newsletter, so please share with us where people can find you and your newsletter and all your other good work. [00:43:24] Tom: Yeah, sure. So the newsletter, I'm, I'm very excited. This, um, just past 6,000 subscribers yesterday. Um, it's, it's called Kii Green. [00:43:34] Um, if you Google Kii Green Newsletter, you, you should find it. Um, and, and it's basically a monthly newsletter about like, Greening the internet, um, but in a very holistic way. So, you know, we talk about things like humane web as well. Um, and we started it about three years ago thinking that nobody would be interested. [00:43:53] So to suddenly like now be like, oh wow, there's like 6,000 people subscribe to this. That for me is like a source of optimism. [00:44:00] Um, again, that that [00:44:01] Sarah: means that there's all these people everywhere, right? And saying, yeah, me too. I'm in. [00:44:06] Tom: Exactly. Mm-hmm. Exactly. The, the, like, I think sometimes we. We don't realize that there's a lot of people out there that are thinking like we are thinking, or, or maybe they're thinking differently from we're thinking, but they're like, they really care about making things better. [00:44:20] Um, and we just don't know that they're out, they're out there. Um, right. So when we have things that kind of bring these voices together, I think that's really powerful. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, so the Curiously Green Newsletter, um, I mean, you can find me on LinkedIn, that's Tom Greenwood who runs Whole Grain Digital. [00:44:36] There's lots of Tom Greenwoods, but I'm, I'm, I'm that one. Um, And I also have a, um, I also have a, a personal newsletter about sustainable business on CK called Oxymoron, um, which you can look up on ck Um, yeah, so I guess they're the. They're, they're the key places to find me. And you have a book, right? I do have a book, yeah. [00:44:59] Yeah. I always [00:45:00] forget to mention that. Yeah. There you go. So I always have a book, um, about sustainable web design called Sustainable Web Design. Um, you can, you can get it direct from publisher, uh, which is a book apart.com, or it's now available as of about two weeks ago in a lot of bookshops. Um, so you could find it on Amazon and other kind of online bookstores as well. [00:45:22] Sarah: Wonderful. Thank you so much for sharing that. I always ask one last question here to every, uh, guest, and that is, what are you grateful for today, this week, this season? [00:45:36] Tom: To be honest, I, I am grateful for the fact that like we live in a world where we can have these sorts of conversations. You know, like we have the freedom to think and, and share ideas and, you know, even if not everything is. [00:45:52] Perfect. And not everything's always trending in the direction we wanted to. Like the fact that we have the opportunity to try and like do [00:46:00] something about it and connect with, with other people. Trying to do so is, is, is a wonderful thing, um, which I'm very grateful for. [00:46:09] Sarah: Yeah. I agree and I'm grateful for the work you are doing and and your team, so [00:46:17] Tom: thank you. [00:46:17] Sarah: Let's keep it up. Yep. So much. Thanks so much for being here, Tom. I hope you feel motivated and I. Inspired to create a humane web together. I highly recommend you sign up to Tom's newsletter. You'll find that@wholegraindigital.com. You can also, as Tom suggested to connect with him on LinkedIn. You find the show notes of this episode@humane.marketing slash 1 67, and on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as my Saturday newsletter, the Humane Business Business Manifesto, [00:47:00] and the free gentle confidence mini course, as well as my two books, marketing like we're Human and Selling like we're human. [00:47:08] Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. We are change makers before we are marketers, so go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.

Tom Krazit, Editor in Chief at Runtime, joins Corey on Screaming in the Cloud to discuss what it's like being a journalist in tech. Corey and Tom discuss how important it is to find your voice as a media personality, and Tom explains why he feels one should never compromise their voice for sponsor approval. Tom reveals how he's covering tech news at his new publication, Runtime, and how he got his break in the tech journalism industry. Tom also talks about why he decided to build his own publication rather than seek out a corporate job, the value of digging deeper for stories, and why he feels it's so valuable to be able to articulate the issues engineers care about in simple terms. About TomTom Krazit has written and edited stories about the information technology industry for over 20 years. For the last ten years he has focused specifically on enterprise technology, including all three as-a-service models developed around infrastructure, platform, and enterprise software technologies, security, software development techniques and practices, as well as hardware and chips.Links Referenced: Runtime: https://www.runtime.news/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Chronosphere. When it costs more money and time to observe your environment than it does to build it, there's a problem. With Chronosphere, you can shape and transform observability data based on need, context and utility. Learn how to only store the useful data you need to see in order to reduce costs and improve performance at chronosphere.io/corey-quinn. That's chronosphere.io/corey-quinn. And my thanks to them for sponsor ing my ridiculous nonsense. Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn, and people sometimes confuse me for a journalist. I am most assuredly not one of those. I'm just loud and have opinions and every once in a while I tell people things they didn't already know. That's not journalism. My guest today, however, is a journalist, Tom Krazit, is the Editor in Chief of the just launched Runtime. Tom, thank you for joining me.Tom: Thanks, Corey. It's a long-time listener, first-time guest.Corey: We've been talking for years now and I'm sort of embarrassed I haven't had you on the show before now. But the journalists has always felt, to me at least, like they're a step apart from the typical, you know, rank and file of those of us working in industry. You folks are different from us, and inviting you all just feels like a faux pas, even though it's very clearly not. Well, how did you get here, I guess is the short version. I know that you're at Runtime, now; you were at Protocol until its demise recently. Before that, when I first started tracking you, you were over at GeekWire. Where do you come from?Tom: [laugh]. Well, I've been doing this for 20 years, which is a long, long time, and it's amazing how much has changed in that time. I started off doing consumer stuff, I was covering Apple during the launch of the iPhone, I was covering Google as they sort of turned into the Borg. And then I joined GigaOm in 2012 and I joined them as an editor. And it became pretty clear that I needed to learn this enterprise stuff real fast because that was like the largest part of GigaOm's business at the time.And so, I kind of just threw myself into it and realized that I actually liked it, you know, which I think is [laugh] hard for some people to understand. But like, I've actually always found it really interesting how these large systems work, and how people build in a variety of ways based on their needs, and, you know, just the dramatic change that we've seen in this industry over the past ten years. So, you know, I've really been doing that ever since.Corey: There's a lot to be said for journalism in the space. And I know a lot of tech companies are starting to… well, that's starting. This is, I guess, a six-year-old phenomenon, at least. But a lot of these small companies were built, and well, we're just going to not talk to the press because we've had bad experiences doing that before, so we're just going to show instead of tell. And that works to a point, but then you hit a certain point of scale where you're a multi-trillion dollar company and, “We don't talk to the press,” no longer becomes tenable. With success comes increased scrutiny, and deservedly so. I feel that there's a certain lack of awareness of that fact in the tech industry versus other large industries that have come before.Tom: I think it's always important to remember how, like, new a lot of this really still is, you know, when compared to, like, other American industries and businesses. Like, tech as a discipline, you know, it's only really in the last ten years that it's been elevated to the extent of, like, sports, or, like, a top-tier news category. And so, I think a lot of people who make those decisions, you know, grew up in a different environment where, you know, you didn't really want to talk about what you were doing because you were worried about competitive things or you were just worried—you wanted to have a ground-up story. And like, yeah, the world is very different now. And I think that, you know, a lot of companies are starting to get that and starting to change the way they think about it.I mean, I also would argue that I think a lot of enterprise tech companies see better value in running ads alongside golf tournaments than actually talking to people about what they really do because I think a lot of them don't really want people to understand [laugh] what they do. They want them to think that they're, you know, the wizard behind the curtain, solving all your digital transformation needs and not actually get into the details of that.Corey: I used to think that I was, as an engineer, much smarter than any of the marketers who were doing these things that obviously make no sense. Like, why would you have a company's logo in an airport for an enterprise software ad, but no URL or way to go buy something? Aren't those people foolish? Yeah, it turns out no. People are not just-fell-off-the-turnip-truck level of sophistication.It's a brand awareness story where you wind up going in and pitching to the board of some big company someday and they already know who you are. That's the value of brand awareness, as I've learned the fun way because I accidentally became something of a marketer. I have this platform—Tom: [crosstalk 00:04:46], Corey—Corey: In the newsletters, but—Tom: Come one. You're totally a brand. You're a brand.Corey: Oh, absolutely. And breakfast cereal.Tom: [laugh].Corey: But I was surprised to realize that people not only cared about what I had to say but would pay me cash money in order to have their product mentioned in the thing that I do. And, “Can you give me money? Of course you can give me money.” But it was purely accidental along the way. So, I have to ask, given that you seem to be a fan of, you know, not starving to death, why would you start a media company in 2023?Tom: Uh, well I needed to do something, Corey. You know, like [laugh] [crosstalk 00:05:22]—Corey: You had a bright career in corporate communications if you want to go over to the dark side. Like, “I'm tired of talking to the audience about truth, I'd rather spin things now because I know how the story gets told.”Tom: I mean, that may come down the road for me at some point, but I wasn't quite ready for that just yet. I have really felt very strongly for a long time that this particular corner of the world needs better journalism. I just, I feel like a lot of what is served up to the people who have to make decisions about this incredibly complicated part of the world, you know, it's either really, really product-oriented, like, “So-and-so introduced the new thing today. It costs this much and it does these three things that they told us under embargo,” you know, or you get, like, real surface-level coverage from, like, the big financial business publications, you know, who understand the importance of things like cloud and things like enterprise software, but haven't really invested the time to understand the technological complexities behind it and how, you know, easy narratives don't necessarily, you know, play in this world.So, there's a middle ground there that I think we at Protocol Enterprise found pretty fertile. And, you know, I think that, for this, for Runtime, you know, I'm really just continuing to carry that work forward and to give people content they need to make decisions about using technology in their businesses that business people can understand without an engineering degree, but that engineers will take a look at it and they'll go, “You know what? He did that right. He did his homework, he got the details right.” And I think that's rare, unfortunately, and then that's a gap I hope to fill.Corey: Something that really struck me as being aligned with how I tend to view things is—to be clear, our timing is a little weird because to my understanding, the inaugural issue is going out later today after we record—Tom: That's correct.Corey: But that would have already happened and have landed in the industry by the time people listen to this. So, I'm really hoping, first off, that the first issue isn't horrifying to a point where, “Oh God, distance myself from it. What have I done?” But you've been in this industry enough that I doubt that's going to be how you play it. But I am curious to know how it winds up finding its voice over the coming weeks and months. Even when you've done this before, as you have I think that every publication starts to have a different area of focus, a different audience, and focus on different aspects of this, which is great because I don't want to see the same take from fifteen different journalist publications.Tom: Totally. I mean, you know, I think a lot of what Protocol Enterprise was, was my voice and, you know, how I thought about this industry and wanted to bring it forward. And so, I think that, you know, off the bat, a lot of what Runtime is will be similar to that. But to your point, I think everything changes. The market changes, what people want changes, I mean, like, look, just the last six months, the rise of all this generative AI discussion has dramatically changed a lot of what software—you know, how it's discussed and how it's thought about, and those are things that, you know, six months ago, we were talking about, maybe, here and there, but we certainly weren't talking about them to degree than we are now.So like, those changes will happen over the coming months. And you know, you just have to sort of keep up with them and make sure—my job is to make sure I am talking to the right people who can put those things into context for the people who need to understand them in order to make their own decisions. You know, I mean, I think we talk a lot about the top-tier decision makers, you know, of companies who need information, but I think there's, like, a whole other, I don't want to call them an underclass, but like, you know, there's a lot of other people within companies who advise those people and who genuinely need help trying to understand the pace and the degree to which things have changed and whether or not it's worth it for them to invest, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars in some of these new technologies. So, you know, that's kind of the voice I want to bring forward is to represent the buyer, to represent the person who has to make sense of all this and decide whether or not, you know, the sparkly magic beans coming down from the cloud providers and others are really what it's cracked up to be.Corey: The thing that really throws me is that when I started talking to you and other journalists where you speak generally to a tech-savvy audience, but for whatever reason, that audience and you by extension are not as deeply involved in every nuance of the AWS ecosystem or the cloud computing ecosystem as I am. So, I can complain for five minutes straight to you about the Managed NAT Gateways and their pricing and then you'll finally say, “Yeah, I don't know what any of the words Managed, NAT, or Gateway mean in this context. Can you distill that down for me?” It's, “Oh, right. Talking about what I mean in a way that someone who isn't me with my experience can understand it.” I mean, that is such a foreign concept to so many engineers that speaking clearly about what they mean is now being called prompt engineering, instead of, “Describe what you want in plain English.”Tom: Yeah. I think that's a lot of what I hope to accomplish, actually, is to be able to talk to really smart engineers who are really driving this industry forward from their contributions and be able to articulate, like, what it is that they're concerned about, like, what it is that they think is exciting, and to put that into context for people who, you know, who don't know what a gateway is, let alone, like, any of [laugh] those other words you used. So, you know, like, I think there's a real opportunity to do that and that's the kind of thing I get excited about.Corey: I am curious, given that you are just launching at this point, and you have the express intention of being sponsor-supported, as opposed to a subscriber-driven model, which I've thought about a lot over the past, however many years you want to wind up describing I've been doing this. The problem that I've got here is that I have always found that whenever I'm doing something that aligns with making money and taking a sponsor message and putting it out to the world, how do I keep that from informing the coverage? And I've had to go a fair bit out of my way to avoid that. For example, this podcast is going to have ads inserted into it. I don't know what they are, I don't know who these companies are, and that only gets done after I've recorded this episode, so I'm not being restrained by, “Ohh, have to say something nice about Company X because they're sponsoring this episode.” It stays away.Conversely, if I want to criticize Company X, I don't feel that I can't do that because well, they are paying the bills around here. You're still in a very early stage where it is you, primarily. How are you avoiding that, I guess, sense of vendor capture?Tom: You have to be very intentional about it from day one. You have to make it clear when you're talking to sponsors from the business side where the lines are drawn. And you have to, I think from the editorial side, just be fearless and be willing to speak the truth. And if you get negative reaction from sponsors over something you've said, they were never going to be a good long-term partner for you anyway. And I've seen that over the years.Like, companies that get annoyed about coverage because they're sponsors are insecure companies. It's almost a tell, you know, like when you attempt to put pressure on editorial organizations because you're a sponsor and you don't like the way that they're covering something [laugh], it's a deep, deep tell about the state of your business and how you see it. So, like for me, those are almost like signals to use and then go deeper, you know? And then, you know, I do think that there are enough companies that feel strongly about wanting to support the kind of work that I do without impugning the way I think about it, or the way I write about it. Because I mean, like, there's just no other way to do what I do without pulling punches.And I think you would agree, you know, in terms of what you do, like, the voice that you have, the authenticity that you have, is your selling point. And if you compromise that, people know. It's pretty obvious when you are bending your coverage to suit your sponsors. And there's examples of it every day in enterprise tech coverage. And you know, I feel like my track record speaks for itself on that.Corey: I would agree. I don't like everything you write. That's kind of the point. I think that if you look at anyone who's been even moderately prolific and you like everything that they're writing, are they actually doing journalism or are they catering to your specific viewpoint? Now, that doesn't mean that well, I don't like this particular journalist. It's, well, “Oh, because you don't agree with what they say?” “No, because they're editorially sloppy, they take shortcuts, and they apparently peddle misinformation gleefully.”Yeah, I don't like a lot of that type of coverage. I've never seen that from you. And you've had takes I don't agree with, you've had articles that I thought were misleading at times, but I've never gotten the sense at all that they were written in bad faith. And when I run into that, it often makes me question my own biases as well, which is sort of a good thing.Tom: I mean, it's really tough because there are people out there in journalism and media who are operating in bad faith. Like, there's just no… there's no other way to dance around that. That is a fact of life in the 21st century. And I mean, all I can really do is do what I do every day and put it out there and, you know, let people judge it for what it is. And you know, like, I feel like, I have a pretty strong sense of what I will, you know, what I'll cover and how I'll cover it and where I'll go with it, and I think that that sort of governs, you know, every editorial decision that I've ever made. For me, there's just no other way to do it. And if I get to a point where I have to make those compromises in order to have a business, like, I'll just go do something else. I don't need this that much.Corey: When I was starting the Duckbill Group, one of the problems that I had was—it's hard to start a company for a variety of reasons, but one that is not particularly sympathetic is that everything is hard when you're just starting out. You don't know where any business is going to come from if it ever does. And at any point, I looked around, and I have an engineering skill set and I live in San Francisco, and I look around and say, it's Wednesday. I could have a job at a big tech company for hundreds of thousands of dollars a year by Friday if I just go out and say yes. And it's resisting that siren call while building something myself that was really hard.You have that challenge as well, I'd have to imagine because there are always people that various companies are looking to build out their PR and corporate comms groups, and people who understand the industry and know how to tell a story, which you clearly qualify, are always in demand, regardless of the macroeconomic conditions. So, at any point, you have the sort of devil on your shoulder saying, it doesn't need to be this hard. There's an easier, more lucrative path instead of struggling to get something off the ground yourself. Do you find that that becomes a tempting thing that you want to give into, or is it, “Mmm, not today, Satan?”Tom: The latter. I mean, I've had offers from companies I respect and from people I would, you know, be happy to work with under other circumstances. But I mean, I sort of feel like I'm just wired this way. And then that's, like, what I enjoy getting out of bed every day to do, is this. And, you know, like, it's not to say that I couldn't find, long-term, some kind of role inside one of those types of companies that you just mentioned, but I'm not ready for that yet.And, you know, I think I'd bring more value to the industry this way than I would jump in on some pre-IPO rocket ship kind of thing right now. I will say that, like, a lot of this business is a young person's game, so like, that equation changes as you get older. I always tell everybody that, like, journalism over the last 20 years has been, like, one of the slowest-moving games of musical chairs that you'll ever play. And, you know, I've [laugh] been pretty lucky over the past number of years to keep getting a chair, you know, in every single one of those downturns. But, you know, I'm not naive enough to think that my luck would  run out one day either. But I mean, if I build my own business, hopefully, I can control that.Corey: There are a lot of tech publications out there and I'm curious as to what direction you plan to take Runtime in, given that it is just you, and you presumably, you know, sleep sometimes, it's probably not breaking news with the first take on absolutely everything, which just, frankly, sounds exhausting. One of the internal models we have here is the best take, not the first take. So, where does your coverage intend to start? Where does it intend to stop? And how fixed is that?Tom: Well, at the moment, you know, what we really want to do is tell the stories that the herd is not telling. And you know, we're making a very deliberate decision to avoid a lot of the embargoed product training—I —I don't know how many of your listeners actually know how the sausage is made, but like, so many PR departments and marketing departments in tech really like to tell news through these embargoed product announcement things. And they'll email you a couple days ahead of time and they'll say, “Hey, Tom, we've got a new thing coming up in our, whatever, cloud storage services area. You know, are you interested in learning more under embargo?” And then a lot of people just say, “Sure,” and take a briefing and write up a story.And like, there's nothing inherently wrong with that. It is news and it is—if you think it's interesting enough to bring out to people, like, great. There's a lot of limitations to it, though, you know, in that you can't really get context around that story because you sort of by definition, if you agree to not tell anybody about this thing that the company told you, you can't go out and ask a third-party expert what they think about it. So, you know, I think that it's a way to control the narrative without really getting the proper story out there. And the hook is that you'll be first.And so, I think what we're trying to do is to step away from that and to really tell more impactful stories that take more time to put together. And I mean, I've been on all sides of the news business and when you get on the hamster wheel, you really don't have time to tell those stories because you're too busy trying to deal with the output you've already committed to. And so, like, one thing that Runtime will be doing right off the bat is taking the time to do those stories to interview the people who don't get talked to as much, who don't have twenty-five PR people on staff to blast the world about their accomplishments, you know, to really go out and find the stories that aren't being told, and to elevate the voices that aren't being heard, and to shine a light on some of the, you know, more complex technological things that others simply don't take the time to figure out.Corey: Well, do you have an intended publication schedule at this point or is it going to be when it makes sense? Because one of the things that drove me nuts that I would go back and change if I could is Last Week in AWS inherently has a timeliness to it and covers things over a certain timeframe as well. I don't get to take two weeks off and pre-write this stuff.Tom: Yeah. So the primary vehicle right now is an email newsletter for Runtime and that'll come out three times a week on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturday mornings. You know, I'll also be publishing stories alongside those newsletters. That will be a little more ad hoc. You know, I'd like to have that line up with the newsletters, but you know, sometimes that's not, you know, a schedule you can really adhere to.But the newsletter is a three times a week operation at the moment and that, you know, is just basically based on—you know, at Protocol, we did five times a week with a staff of six. And that was a big effort. So, I decided that was probably not the best thing for me to tackle right off the bat here. So, one thing I really would like to do with Runtime is to get back to that place where there's a staff, there's beat reporters, there's people who can really take the time to dig into these different areas, you know, across cloud infrastructure, AI, or security, or software development, you know, like, who can really, really plunge themselves into that, and then we can bring a broad product to the market. You know, it'll take some time to get there, but that's the goal.Corey: How do you intend to measure success? I mean, there's obviously financial ways of doing it, but it's also one of those areas of, like, one of the things that drove me nuts is that I'll do something exhaustively researched that takes me forever to get out, and no one seems to notice or care. And then I'll just slap something off eleventh hour, and it goes around the internet three times. And I always find that intensely frustrating. How do you measure whether you've succeeded or whether you failed?Tom: Well, I mean, welcome to the internet, Corey. That's just how it works. I think I will be able to measure that, you know, by how sustainable of venture this is, and like, whether or not I can get back to that point where, you know, we can support a small team to do this because I, you know, I sort of feel that that's the best—that's really what this part of the world needs is that kind of broader coverage from subject matter experts who can really dive into things. I mean, I know a lot about a lot, but I can't spend all my time talking to security people to really understand what's happening in that market, and the same for any other, you know, one of these disciplines that we talk about. So, you know, if a year from now, I come on this show for the one-year anniversary of the launch, and we've got sustainable runway, we've got, you know, a few people on board, I'll be thrilled. That'll be great, you know?And like, one thing that I think will really be helpful, for me, at least in terms of determining how successful this is, is just how things travel, and not necessarily like traffic in terms of how things travel, I think that's an easy trap to fall into, but whether or not you know, the stuff that we write about is circulating in the right places and also showing up in the coverage that some of those broader business financial publications actually wind up doing. You know, if you can show that, like, the work you've been doing is influencing the conversation of some of these topics on a broader national and global scene, then for me, that'll be a home run.Corey: Taking a step back, what advice would you give someone who's toying with the idea of entering the media space in this era, whether that be starting their own publication or becoming a journalist through more traditional means? Because as you said, you've been doing this for 20 years; you've seen a lot of change. How would you get started today?Tom: It was a lot easier. It was smaller. It was just a much smaller industry when I first started doing this, and… there wasn't social media. The big challenge, I think, for a lot of people who are just starting now and trying to break through is just how many voices there are and, like, trying to get a foothold among a much, much bigger pond. Like, it was just a much [laugh] smaller pond when I started, and so you know, it was easier to stand out, I guess.I started in the trade magazine world; I started with IDG and I started—you know, which is a real, great bedrock system of knowledge for people to really get their footing in this industry on. And you know, you can count on many, many hands the number of people who started at IDG and have gone on to, you know, a very successful tech and media careers throughout. So, you know, for me, that was a big, that was a big thing. But that was a moment in time. And like, you know, the world now is so different.The only thing that has ever worked, though, is to just write, to just start, to just get out there and do what you're doing and develop a voice and find a way to get it to the people who you want to read it. And you know, if you keep at it, you can start to break through. And, like, it's a slog, I'm not going to pretend otherwise, but yeah, if it's a career you really want to do, the best way to do it is just to start. And the nice thing about the modern era, actually is, like, there's never been easier ways to get up and running. I mean you look at like things like Substack, or I'm using Ghost, you know, like, the tools are there in a way that they weren't 20 years ago when I started.Corey: Step one: learn how to build a web server is no longer your thing. No, I think that that's valuable. One of the things that I find at least is people are so focused on the nuts and bolts, the production quality. People reach out to me all the time and say, “What microphone should I get? What my audio setup should I use? What tools should I do for the rest of this?”And it's, realize that it doesn't matter how much you invest in production quality; if the content isn't interesting and the story you have to tell doesn't grip people, it doesn't matter. No one cares. You have to get their attention first and then, then you can scale up on the production quality. I think I'm on generation six or so of my current AV setup. But that happened as a result of basically, more or less recording into a string can when I first started doing this stuff. Focus on the important part of the story, the differentiated parts.Tom: The best piece of advice, I got when starting Runtime was just to start. Like, don't worry about building a perfect website, don't worry about, you know, getting everything all dialed in exactly the way you want it. Just get out there and do the work that you're doing. And it's also a weird time right now, obviously, with the [laugh] the demise of Twitter as a vehicle for a lot of this stuff. Like, I think a lot of journalists are really having to figure out what their new social media distribution strategies are and I don't think anybody's really settled on anything definitive just yet.So, that's going to be an interesting wrinkle over this year. And then I think, you know, there's also still a lot of concern about the broader economy, you know, advertising is always one of those things that can be the first to go when businesses start to look at the bottom line a little bit more closely. But those things always come around, you know, and when the economy does start to get a little bit better, I think, you know, we've seen a little bit more, maybe [unintelligible 00:26:28] of the market over the last couple of weeks, you know, with some of the earnings results that we've seen. So, you know, like, I mean, those are famous last words, obviously, but I think that looking forward into the second half of the year, people are starting to get a little more confident.Corey: I sure hope so. I really want to thank you for being so generous with your time. If people want to learn more, and—as they should—subscribe to see how Runtime plays out, where can they find you?Tom: runtime.news.Corey: Excellent. We'll, of course, put a link to that in the [show notes 00:26:54]. I'm really looking forward to getting the first issue in a few hours myself. Thanks again for your time. I really appreciate it.Tom: Thanks, Corey.Corey: Tom Krazit, Editor in Chief at Runtime. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with an angry comment telling us that your company's product is being dramatically misunderstood and to please issue a correction.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.

This episode of Hopp on Calls with Kevin Hopp is the first part of the conversation with Tom Slocum, Founder of The SD Lab. Today, Kevin and Tom speak to prospects with various objections.Kevin teaches never to push a conversation when you have the right tools to call them again on another day. Tom also suggests working with people who want to solve their problem because, otherwise, there's no conversation to be had. QUOTESThere's no need to push conversations with structure, process, and technology - Kevin: "My philosophy is never to push a conversation. Never to push a conversation. Why? Why don't I push conversations? Because I've got process and structure and technology that's going to allow me to call Andreas back tomorrow really easily."Prioritize accounts so you call people with a problem and desire to fix it - Tom: "You want to call prospects that are actual prospects. And it's like, well, of course, Tom. But it's true. You've got to really look at who actually wants to solve the problem that you help solve. They've got to want to solve the problem." Find out more about Tom and connect with him in the links below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomslocum/ You can connect with Kevin Hopp in the link below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/khopp/ Hopp on Calls is powered by Kixie.Hone the craft of outbound sales at Cold Calling 101. 

HELP SUPPORT NEW EPISODES! Patreon:  https://www.patreon.com/19Nocturne Ko-Fi: https://ko-fi.com/a_d_infinitum   Next month (May 2022) will be one of the following (contact us through twitter or facebook or email to vote!): A.  Deadeye Kid prequel B.  Fatal Girl, season 2, episode 1 C.  Something else entirely Ko-fi votes count for every dollar donated!!!   TALK THE TALK Written by Julie Hoverson, sound mixing by Neil Gowland CAST Lydia Farnsworth - Julie Hoverson Thomas Farnsworth - JD Lauriat (Haunted House Flippers) Alice White - Shannon Perry (OZ-9) Phone - Pete Lutz (Narada Radio) Judge - Russell Gold Foreman - Jay Langejeans D.A. - Kerr Lordygan Guard - Jimmy Robbins Couch - Chris Hart Elevator - Cary Michael Ayers Lighter - Richard Hand Lamp - Boyd Barrett Sink - Blythe Renay Gun - Thomas Rippert Closet - Joe Griffin WHISPERS Erin Suminsby James C. Taylor Ruya Telhami Julie Hoverson David S. Dear Fiona Thraille   ***************************************************************     TALK THE TALK Cast: Olivia Lydia Farnsworth Thomas Farnsworth Alice White Judge Foreman D.A. Guard Phone Couch Elevator C Lighter Lamp Sink Gun Closet MUSIC OLIVIA Why, it's a courtroom, can't you tell? Where else would you find... a murderer? Scene 1. LYDIA [condescending, replying to a question] Lydia Farnsworth - Everyone here knows that. ... Yes, yes. ... I killed him. It was self-defense. He was planning to kill me. ... [hesitant, lying] An anonymous phone call. [narrating] Of course I can't say who told me - everyone would think I was utterly insane. When it started, Icouldn't even understand it, much less believe - how could I convince anyone else? MUSIC Scene 2. STING LYDIA [narrating] I know I am a joke. An older woman, rich and prominent, married to a much younger - well, a youngerman. And I'm not THAT old - 40 isn't really, and everyone says I look more like 35. But he looks 29 - which he is - so ... tongues will wag. SOUND Tom screams, long, distant and echoey. LYDIA Oh, that was later. Tom almost never screams. TOM [screams, but happily] Hey! SOUND ROULETTE WHEEL. TOM Didja see that? Boy oh boy, if I could bottle that! LYDIA [purring] You're a lucky man. TOM [interested] We-e-ell.... I guess I am. Hey Kitten, wanna help make a rich man poor again? MUSIC Scene 3. UNDER LYDIA [narrating] It was that moment that I fell for him. He didn't know who I was, but he wanted to give me a treat. I kept it up for a while, pretending to be just another secretary on vacation, not letting on. I felt so guilty, letting him pay for all those dinners, the gifts... TOM Kitten, this necklace is just aching to be around your neck. Hear it? [silly voice] Hey lady, take me home, I love you.... LYDIA [narrating, suddenly struck by something] Oh. [beat] No, no - never mind. TOM Don't you know that everything has a voice? Listen to the wind - it calls your name to me, telling me I gotta keep hold of you. Whattaya say, Kitten? Wanna make it permanent? MUSIC UNDER LYDIA [narrating, shaken] Yes, he DID say things like that - perhaps that was why... [beat] Tom worked late a lot - particularly after I told him I was - we were - wealthy. It was like he felt he had to make up for something. He never even introduced me to his family - just said he grew up dirt poor. I think he was ... ashamed. TOM [filter] Sorry, Kitten, but I gotta really burn some oil on this one. You understand, right? LYDIA Of course. [narrating] What else could I say, it was so sweet of him to worry. To want to make me proud. Scene 4. SOUND Candlestick phone hangs up. Footsteps walk away. PHONE [Male voice, filter] He's cheating on ya. LYDIA [panicked, slightly distant] What? Who? PHONE [filter] The husband. Tom. He calls HER all the time when you're out. You want her number? LYDIA Who is this? Where are you? PHONE [filter] Right over here, where I always am. LYDIA [getting more agitated] I don't see anyone! Is this some kind of game? SOUND Footsteps, hesitant, then dashing about. PHONE [filter] I wanted to show my appreciation, see, for not throwing me over when the new model came out - LYDIA What? Where are you? SOUND Door opens. LYDIA [muffled slightly] Hello? Where...? PHONE [filter] No one understands a classic any more. SOUND Door slams. LYDIA [sobbing] This is not funny! I don't know who you are, but you can just get out! PHONE [filter, very close] I'm right here. Look down. LYDIA [quavering] Wha-a-at? [relieved] Oh, the line must still be open. SOUND Candlestick phone picked up, taken off the hook, tap of cradle. LYDIA [loudly] This is not funny, whoever you are. I don't... SOUND Dial tone - continues in background until stated. LYDIA What...? PHONE [filter] I'm not ON your phone, lady. ... I AM your phone. SOUND Clatter of phone hitting floor, dial tone continues, but distant. PHONE [filter] Hey! I'm trying to help you here! LYDIA Nooo! SOUND Phone is kicked across floor. SOUND Dial tone stops. LYDIA [breathing hard] SOUND hesitant footsteps, continuing. PHONE [Unintelligible, distant whisper] LYDIA [whispered] How can you be talking? PHONE [whispered, wavering] Closer, come closer. LYDIA I'm... I'm sorry I kicked you. PHONE [moans, slightly closer] LYDIA Are you ... all right? PHONE [whispering] I gotta ... you need to hear this. SOUND Phone picked up from floor. LYDIA Yes, I'm listening. PHONE [shouting] Don't DO that! SOUND Phone hits floor again. MUSIC UNDER LYDIA [narrating, matter of fact] I felt so bad. But it wasn't hurt. They really built those old phones to last. And what it toldme...! PHONE Sunset 1-1-9-7. I don't know who she is, but what he says to her - whoo-wee. Scene 5. LYDIA [narrating] But how could I tell anyone? My PHONE spoke to me? I told THEM I got an anonymous call. And of course, the phone never used a name, so it wasn't precisely a LIE... TOM Kitten, I'm home! LYDIA Oh, yes. Tom. The phone line lothario. [calling away] Darling, was it a good meeting? TOM The best. [SOUND: KISS] Not better than coming home, though. LYDIA [neutral] Of course. TOM Oh, you're not mad, are you kitten? It's important that I do my time at the office, don't you see? Show everyone - show you - that I'm not just a... a... PHONE Gold digger. LYDIA What? TOM You know, a social climber. PHONE Gi-go-lo. LYDIA Did you hear that? TOM What? If it's the Joneses and their idiot record player again... LYDIA No. It's nothing. LYDIA [narrating] It wasn't nothing, of course. Soon, other supposedly inanimate objects began to have their little piece to say... Scene 6. SOUND water running SINK [cheery] Almost out of soap! And my drain will clog if you don't stop him from washing down his coffee grounds! LYDIA Him? SINK [significant, like a hint] Him. LYDIA [narrating] After the initial shock wore off, it was so EASY to listen. SOUND Click of light being turned on. LAMP [high squeaky voice] On! Better? LYDIA [startled] What? LAMP Are you going to read? Knit maybe? HE likes the dark. Especially when she's here. SOUND Light switched off. LAMP [voice now low] Off. Yep. Just like that. LYDIA [narrating] At first I thought I was crazy, but then I realized - if I was crazy, how could I know all the things they were telling me? SOUND plumping up pillows COUCH [seedy voice, out the corner of the mouth] I know who she is. SOUND Plumping stops, Lydiasits on couch. COUCH Hey, I didn't ask you to sit on me! LYDIA Oh! Who is she? COUCH I would recognize her from behind better, if you catch my drift... LYDIA You mean she actually sat on you - I mean on MY COUCH? COUCH You don't have to rub it in. LYDIA [narrating] I had to have it out with her. I COULDN'T just let this - this farce - go on, right under my nose and behind my back! PHONE Sunset 1-1-9-7? You got it. SOUND Phone dials. LYDIA What'll I say? PHONE I could tell you what HE says... SOUND Phone picks up. LYDIA Shut up! ALICE [filter] Well! SOUND Slams phone down. LYDIA This is hopeless. How can I find a person from her phone number? PHONE All you need is a good story. COUCH [off mike] I know a couple of good stories... PHONE & LYDIA Shut UP! LAMP [high squeaky voice] You tell 'em! Scene 7. SOUND Phone is dialed. Picked up. ALICE [filter] Hello? LYDIA [brisk, but clearly reading] Telegram for Sunset 1-1-9-7 - May I have your name please? ALICE [filter] White. Alice White. [concerned] A telegram? LYDIA Good. Miss White, can you confirm your address, in case we need to forward a copy to your home? ALICE [filter] What's the message? LYDIA I have to confirm your address, miss. The message is marked urgent. ALICE [filter, more worried] 24 Topham drive, floor 6. Now what-? SOUND phone hangs up. LYDIA & PHONE collapse into giggles. COUCH & LAMP laugh too. SINK [far off mike] What? What's so funny? MUSIC Scene 8. UNDER LYDIA [narrating] I went. I had to. I needed to see this cuckoo's egg. Alice White. What a name - plebian, that's what I call it. Strictly middle class. AND the elevator was broken in her building. SOUND Buzzer, door opens. LYDIA Alice- ALICE [friendly] -- White. And you? LYDIA [narrating] She was horrible. Horribly perfect - buttermilk complexion, flaxen hair... She should have been a dairymaid in one of those travel posters for Holland or Sweden - one of those places with dirndls and windmills and tulips. ALICE Can I help you? LYDIA [narrating] At least I had my story straight this time - my phone is VERY handy with a lie. [to Alice] I am here seeking donations to the Mid-Town Orphanage. Can you spare anything? [Narrating] From the looks of her - the threadbare, out of fashion dress, the tatty carpet in the hall, she was sure to laugh in my face- ALICE Oh, gosh... [going away] I'm sure I've got something. Hmm... here! [coming back] Can you maybe use this? LYDIA [numb] A lighter? ALICE I think it's real gold, and I don't smoke. I couldn't think what to do with it. LYDIA Won't... your husband... be annoyed? ALICE [giggles] Got none. Not yet. It was sort of a present - kind of like for emergency money, but I'd feel bad just selling it or throwing it out, but this sounds like a real good cause. LYDIA [narrating] I walked away with the gold lighter in my hand - the gold lighter I GAVE him for our honeymoon... LIGHTER [British accent] I say, don't I know you? LYDIA [narrating] I waited until we were alone. [to lighter, whispered] How did you get THERE? LIGHTER [whispering] Oh, this is jolly exciting, just like Scotland Yard... LYDIA Answer me! LIGHTER If you must take that tone! Young Thomas gifted me to her. I see almost as much of him here as I ever saw in his flat. LYDIA MY flat. LIGHTER Oh, like that is it? Well well well... MUSIC Scene 9. UNDER LYDIA [narrating] It was all true. And she was so darned NICE I couldn't even hate her. Just HIM. I felt like a character in a bad drama - the cheated wife. So alone... But I wasn't alone, you see. I had all of THEM. SOUND Door shuts, footsteps. LYDIA [off mike] Dear? Are you home? SOUND phone hanging up. TOM [on mike] You bet, Kitten! LYDIA Oh, good. I was afraid you'd forgotten-- PHONE You asked me to let you know if anything interesting happened? LYDIA ...our anniversary? PHONE He was just talking to ... HER. TOM Now what kind of a husband would that make me? PHONE A heel. [admonishing] On your anniversary. LYDIA [shaky] I need to ... to powder my... SOUND footsteps running away TOM Hunh. Women. PHONE You can say that again. SOUND door slams. NEW SCENE_9.5 LYDIA [crying] Oh, Tom! CLOSET Psst, over here. LYDIA What? Over where, Who is--? CLOSET I'm the one with the suits hanging in my rear, whaddaya think? LYDIA [sighs] Oh. [sniffs] SOUND footsteps LYDIA [weakly] Yes? CLOSET Check the top shelf. [annoyed] On his side! SOUND door opens. Boxes shift. Something metal is picked up. LYDIA A gun? When did Tom get a gun? TOM [off mike, muffled] Kitten, honey? We need to get shuffling. Are you powdered enough yet? LYDIA [calling] Almost! [whispered] When? Tell me! CLOSET What am I, a calendar? I don't know dates from donuts. LYDIA [frustrated noise] CLOSET But what I DO know is that that piece of hardware wasn't in me until... yesterday. LYDIA Yesterday? TOM [muffled, off mike] Kitten? I'm coming in! LYDIA Don't you dare! SOUND doorknob rattles, Lydia's running footsteps, door slams shut. LYDIA I'm - I'm wrapping your present, darling. You've got to give me a moment. TOM [pleased] Ohhhh. All right, I can wait. I hope it's a lighter - I've only been hinting ever since I lost that great one you gave me before. SOUND Gun cocks. LYDIA [muttered] I should give him the same one - see how he laughs at that. SOUND Footsteps back to closet. Boxes shift. LYDIA I think it was ... [grunt of effort] about there. GUN HEY!!! What are you, crazy? Never leave me lying around cocked! I could go off! MUSIC Scene 10. STING LYDIA [narrating] I thought about it for a long time. About the gun. About what it meant - being in Tom's closet and all. And I wondered if he could possibly be planning what I might think he was planning.... Even if he did intend to kill me, could I do something about it? Get him before he got me? I LOVED Tom. And he'd always been so sweet... PHONE Yeah, yeah, that's what they all say. What you need is gumption, sweetheart. LYDIA Just because he's cheating doesn't mean he's planning to ... to-- PHONE To buy a gun? Too late. What else do you think he's NOT planning to do? LYDIA He wouldn't - couldn't - hurt me. Any more than I could hurt him-- SOUND door opens TOM Oh, hi! [puzzled] Hello? Kitten, who're you talking to? LYDIA [easily] Just the phone, dear. SOUND short smooch. LYDIA [narrating] I was getting rather good at lying. Almost as good as the phone - now, THERE was a champion. I guess it came from hearing all those lies... All the time. TOM [talking on phone] Bob? Listen, it's me, Tom Farnsworth. Yes, from Farnsworth & Wilson. Now, we need to talk... PHONE [over Tom, whispered] Funny, Bob's usually a fella's name... LYDIA [reacts] PHONE He's getting worse. You need to DO something. TOM [continues under Phone] Yes, that's right - tomorrow for lunch. ... Dinner instead? I think I can... Let me just check. [to Lydia] Kitten, can you spare me for dinner tomorrow? Big client... LYDIA [long beat] Of course. Dear. I have someone I really need to talk to anyway. [narrating] The next night, I knew where to find him. Unfortunately, I couldn't take any of my ... friends ... with me - except the lighter, and that accent was getting on my nerves. LIGHTER I say! Scene 11. LYDIA [snorts] But when you're like me, there's always someone around to answer questions... ELEVATOR ...about five minutes ago? Yeah, I know the guy. He's a regular. Sometimes I even take him up. LYDIA Are you working today? ELEVATOR [huffy] Whaddaya mean? I'm always working! LYDIA But the sign... ELEVATOR The super puts the sign up to save electricity - cheapskate. Now, if youknow how to run me up... LYDIA [deflated] I'm not sure... ELEVATOR Step in, it's pretty much automatic. SOUND elevator gate slides open ELEVATOR See the button there.... MUSIC UNDER LYDIA It's funny how every THING I ever talked to wanted to be so helpful, when all the people around me weren't. The elevator even gave me a little tip... ELEVATOR That little knob right there - that's what keeps the door shut when I'm not around. The spring pushes it out - and then, when I come up, it gets pushed in, and voila...! You don't want the door comin' open up here when I'm in the basement, eh? LYDIA Oh, no. SOUND DISTANT BELL. ELEVATOR Whoops! That's me. Would ya' get the door? I gotta go, sweetheart. LYDIA Oh? Oh, certainly. SOUND ELEVATOR DOOR CLOSES. LYDIA I crept down the hall, ever so quiet. SOUND door opens TOM [off] ...right back - just need - [on mike] Oh. Lydia. LYDIA [deep breath] You needn't worry. I'm leaving. SOUND Sharp footsteps TOM Lydia. Kitten. It's not what you think! SOUND Tom's footsteps rush to catch up to her. LYDIA Stay away from me, Tom. TOM Just stop! LYDIA [reacts as Tom grabs her] Uh! Let go of me! SOUND Slight struggle. Lydia's footsteps running. LYDIA I had only one chance...I ran for the elevator. But the gate wouldn't open! I pushed and pushed-- SOUND Elevator door opens. Lydia's footsteps stop, Tom's footsteps catch up. TOM Let me-- LYDIA No! Let go! [sound of exertion, pushing him away] SOUND Tom's footsteps stagger, then... LYDIA Oh, no! It's NOT--! TOM [screams as he did at beginning] LYDIA And that was that. I tried to stop him from going over. At least I think I did, but it WAS my fault. ALICE [coming on mike, breathless] What...? Where's Tom? You're that lady-- LYDIA Tom? He's MY husband! How dare you-- ALICE [panicking] What have you done to Tom? Where's my brother? MUSIC Scene 12. UNDER LYDIA [narrating] And that's why I'm here. If he was cheating on me, I would have fought harder. Could have gotten away. But the look on that girl's face... My own sister-in-law. TOM [screams again] LYDIA Yes, and poor Tom. SOUND Gavel hits twice D.A. Your name please? LYDIA [condescending] Lydia Farnsworth - Everyone here knows that. D.A. And you are testifying in your own behalf of your own free will? LYDIA [testy] Yes, yes. D.A. You are on trial for the murder of your husband, Tom Farns- LYDIA I killed him. It was self-defense. I thought he was planning to kill me. D.A. What led you to think your husband had such designs? LYDIA [hesitant, lying] An anonymous phone call. [narrating] I suppose I could have admitted everything, made a plea for mercy on the grounds of insanity, but I-- TOM [screams again] LYDIA [narrating] I simply couldn't get Tom out of my head. I don't know how all these murderers do it, just kill people and walk away. SOUND Gavel bangs JUDGE Has the jury reached a verdict? FOREMAN We find the defendant ... guilty. LYDIA [resigned] I was relieved, actually. I believed I could face anything, since I would never really be alone. Even the judge's gavel had a kind word. ...Though not the judge. JUDGE For your heinous crimes, I hereby sentence you to death. CROWD [Reaction, gasps] MUSIC Scene 13. STING LYDIA I suppose it was only right - and I really had no reason to go on living, without [SOUND: same scream] Tom. Funny how I look back and see how badly mistaken we all were. It's far too easy to blow things right out of proportion. SOUND footsteps, cutlery set on plate. GUARD You done with that? LYDIA Yes, thank you. It was ... surprisingly tasty. GUARD It's time, then. Come on. SOUND jail door opens, footsteps slowly walk. VOICES [Whispers begin comforting at the start, build.] LYDIA [whispered] Thank you. Thank you all so much. GUARD What? LYDIA Nothing. [narrating] Everything is so encouraging, telling me how brave I am. I'm not brave, really, just ... just tired. GUARD Stop. SOUND KEYS JINGLE. LYDIA Such a relief, really. And then... I'll be with Tom. SOUND LOCK UNLOCKS. Scene 14. WHISPERS [fade out] LYDIA I didn't notice it immediately. My mind was miles away, thinking about how I would make it up to him - he'd certainly understand, about how it was really an accident and all. SOUND SQUEAKY DOORKNOB TURNS. LYDIA But the voices were gone. Even when I closed my eyes and concentrated, there was nothing. It left me feeling ... very ... alone. Oh, well, it wouldn't be for long. SOUND [DISTANT, OFF MIKE] PHONE RINGS. GUARD Stay here. LYDIA What? Of course. I've nowhere to go. SOUND FOOTSTEPS, phone picked up LYDIA Once I rejoined Tom, everything would be all right. I wouldn't NEED them - my friends - any more. Just him. GUARD [behind and under Lydia] Yeah? Who? LYDIA That's why I let it get this far. Fired my lawyer. Made no defense. Admitted everything. GUARD [behind and under] Uh-huh? Got it. LYDIA Just to bring me to this moment. And I wasn't afraid - no matter what this room, this horrible room, might have to say, I was ready. SOUND FOOTSTEPS COME BACK LYDIA And it wouldn't take long. Not long at all, they say. And then, [happy sigh] Tom. GUARD Come on. SOUND KEYS JINGLE LYDIA Well, it's about time. Isn't everyone waiting? GUARD [beat] Not any more, lady. SOUND LOCKING DOOR LYDIA You're an idiot. Open this door. GUARD I may be an idiot, but you're a loon. [beat] That was the governor. You've been commuted. Come on back... LYDIA [gasp, then sharp] Don't talk nonsense. [plaintive, ending in a wail] No! I can't be left all alone! You simply have to kill me! MUSIC  

Investing $50,000 in real estate can go a long way toward creating a diversified rental property portfolio that generates strong cash flow, provided that you do it right. Today we are asking each other the question how we would invest this amount of cash. In this episode, Tom, Emil and Michael share how they would invest $50,000 in real estate if they were just starting out, and if they know what they know now. --- Transcript Before we jump into the episode, here's a quick disclaimer about our content. The Remote Real Estate Investor podcast is for informational purposes only, and is not intended as investment advice. The views, opinions and strategies of both the hosts and the guests are their own and should not be considered as guidance from Roofstock. Make sure to always run your own numbers, make your own independent decisions and seek investment advice from licensed professionals.   Emil: Hey, everyone, welcome back for another episode of the Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Emil Shour and today I'm joined by…   Tom: Tom Schneider   Michael: and Michael Albaum.   Emil: And on today's episode, we're going to be talking about how each of us would invest $50,000 in real estate, and we're gonna frame it as what we would do with that 50k when we were first starting out, versus how we would approach it now, so let's hop into this episode.   Well, I can't ask what's on your guys's mind? Because we just went through that so, huh… Hmm. You know, I used to have this boss that every every meeting every week, he would come in and just ask some random question to avoid the like, so how's everyone doing? That was like, it's a good way to kind of start a meeting, get like really random answers from people.   Tom: You got an example of one?   Emil: He would honestly as a really weird, he's like a weird dude. But like funny, weird. Yeah, probably not suitable for this show. The ones I remember.   Michael: There was a my, my wife loves David Sedaris. And he does a masterclass and he talks about comedy. And one of the questions he loves asking people was, so when was the last time you touched a monkey? He asked him on this and they were like, oh my gosh, like, can you smell it on me, I was working with him earlier at the zoo today? And he was like, no way and it led to him like being able to go play with the monkeys at the zoo. Like and that's why you should always ask random questions.   Emil: He had asked like 400 people, and they all I never spoke to him again, but that one person…   Michael: The one was a big one.   Emil: Then he finally got to meet a monkey at the zoo.   Michael: Yeah…   Tom: Bad news man, getting a baby monkey and then growing up a lot of sad stories about …like ripping arms off. Anyways, sorry…   Michael: That's a… go hard left fast…   Tom: Yeah.   Emil: All right with that we're gonna hop in and talk about real estate. So the topic today is how do you invest 50k? I think this will be interesting. If Michael ever gets it together here.   Michael: Oh man…   Emil: How would you invest 50k If you know what you know, now, but you're just starting out. So take yourself back to you have your current mind, you're going back to when you first started. So how would you invest 50k? And then we'll talk about you're at where you're at currently, you're 50 grand, you want to invest in real estate? What do you guys? What are we all doing? So who wants to kick off? Going back to the past with 50k?   Tom: So, Tom's gonna go first. I would… So me with real estate investing, I really enjoy real estate investing, but I also really enjoy the kind of passive nature of it, more probably more than Michael and Emil, I think they're like, way more active. So I think this is going to be a good diverse range of responses to this question. So what I would probably do so I'd say there's there's two options, right For me, as I also really like single family off of multifamily, just a little bit less to do plus less turns plus XYZ. What I, I would see this as two options, I can either go to, to pick buy two properties in more kind of class C markets, not not as in like, negative, but like smaller markets, right? Talking about like, maybe Birmingham or buy or like Memphis?     Emil: We'll call it Tier 3, it's classy…   Tom: Sure, sure. Sure. Sure. So the my options would be to that or to buy one property in like a Class B area, you know, maybe a, you know, Atlanta, Raleigh, you know, Dallas, one of those guys and where I am right now, if I had 50k, I'm still trying to deploy as much capital out there. I would get debt for sure. I would, I would max out my debt on it. You know, I … we know well, being conscious of not getting over my tips, making sure that my income could support my debt coverage. But I would probably, I'd probably got two properties in one of those smaller markets. But you know, I might have a old fishing pole in the water on some of those larger markets. If something were to come up, I'd cast a wider net, you know, it's a busier acquisition time. So that's why we deployed by SFR, I would look at those smaller markets max, loan to value most of it… That is what I would do, went a little bit long didn't it… Ehmm, yeah. Done…   Michael: Love it. Would you buy… Would you buy both in the same market? Do you think it would use spread them out? Peanut butter spread, as they say…   Tom: I would probably buy them in the same market. Again, like so important to that to develop a thesis when investing in me is a little bit less overhead. So just using a single property manager, you know, doing that work and finding the right property manager, maybe having them help me out on the acquisition side, as far as evaluating neighborhoods and whatnot. So yes, it's a market. Good question, Michael.   Michael: Love it, love it, love it.   Emil: So, Michael, what would you do?   Michael: I think I'm taking that 50,000 and like Tom gonna go get some debt. But I am probably going to go buy a multifamily building, something a little bit bigger that I could, you know, really, really scale with. And it's probably going to be a little more turnkey, because having done the whole multifamily value, add thing, it can often be a lot more expensive than first anticipated. So something that's, you know, relatively easy, stable. That's why you may go to but in close second, what I'm also going to be considering is going and using a 15%, down DSCR loan and going to go purchase a short term rental, which would probably be a single family out in one of those vacation markets that are out there. But I think it can be a really, really, really great use of cash to generate quick income to then go to buy additional properties.     Emil: Michael, for anyone who doesn't know, what is a stable multifamily property, what does that look like?   Michael: Yeah, it's something that has, it's really good question. First off, it's something that has probably already been rehabbed, either extensively or lightly, doesn't have a whole lot of deferred maintenance, rent is probably going to be pretty close to at market rent. So I'm not going to feel the need to, to get new tenants in place when their leases are expiring, because they're already up at market rent. Just something that has been taken care of, or well maintained. Doesn't need a whole lot of CapEx.   Tom: Short term rentals are interesting. How do you find your overhead as an owner relative to your multifamily single family versus long term versus short term rental? Do you find it pretty similar? I would imagine that there's obviously range like there's variants with each of them, but just general ality generally speaking…   Michael: Yeah, it's a big range and it so depends on like my older vintage multifamily, it's gonna be a little bit even less than some of the expense ratio on that just because that has a lot more maintenance, regular, recurring maintenance type issues. On newer single families, comparing across the board to long term versus short term, short term is definitely more expensive from an expense ratio standpoint. But the income generated is still stronger. And so from a cash on cash return, it's it's still performing quite quite well.   Tom: I bought this as a metric, number of times you as an owner, you have to like make a decision or get involved.   Michael: Oh, see, short term versus long term?   Tom: Yeah, yeah, I would think I mean, I would assume short term rental, like there's a little bit more overhead as an owner. Is that wrong?   Michael: Yeah, I don't think that that's, I would say that there is more on the front end. So like we were involved in the decorations and decision making process around what amenities to include, but from a day to day…   Tom: … FF&E and OS&E those are some acronyms, Michael…     Michael: What's a OS&E?   Tom: Oh, OS&E is operating supplies in equipment, and FF&E is furniture, fixtures and equipment.   Michael: Ahhh!   Tom: No big deal, just drop an acronym…   Emil: A unit count into, what's going on here?   Michael: Yeh, sounds like an accounting term.   Tom: I know about luxury man.   Michael: You're just steeped in luxury. But no, I would say other than that. It's pretty much about as hands off as as long term if not more. So. I've really I've made very few decisions, I've been involved in very few of the conversations, we're looking at converting the garage into additional space so that of course, there's a lot more involvement in but that would be the same as if I was doing some kind of rehab work on a long term rental.   Tom: I heard a great story a description of short term rentals as comparing them to fire trucks and that they're constantly getting turned and washed like a fire truck has been around but oh, it gets it gets a fresh wash every time it goes out. So like while you might think it's a you know, getting beat up a lot it perhaps it is but it's it's getting a lot of Washington. It's like a fire truck. I don't know. I like that.   Michael: Yeah, I think I mean, I think so and it's getting eyes in it every turn. So the festering kind of long term deferred maintenance stuff tends to not be again, for my experience as big of an issue because there's people constantly putting eyes on stuff. And if there's an issue you'll hear about it immediately. Like these tenants are going to tell you because they're paying good money to be in these places. Hey, this is an issue you need to fix it.   Emil: Are you is your short term rental being professionally managed, do you have a property manager?   Michael: Yes, yeah, I'm a full service property manager, I definitely pay for it. But I'm not. I'm not at the point where I can set, you know, neither myself or my wife or I are at the point where we have enough time to be able to learn how to do that remotely for this particular property. And you know, if anyone listening is interested in learning more about short term rentals, we did a podcast episode with Avery Carl, which was a phenomenal episode, in my opinion, where she talks all about the short term rental market, and short term rentals in general and things you need to be aware of, if you're going to get involved in this space.   Tom: Did you pencil… Emil needs to give his answer, but just really last question I have on that… Did you pencil it as a longer term rental as well, just to like, see what…   Michael: I did. And it doesn't work. And so I had to always take in the opinion that it has to work as both because if something changes, I don't want to be stuck holding the bag. And after extra chatting with Avery about the short term rental market, this is out in the Smokies. She was like yeah, but the thing of it is, is the regulations aren't going to change out there. Like it is such a through and through short term vacation rental market, that she is not concerned with it being the next Santa Monica or Santa Monica, city regulators come in and say I can't do Airbnb, because it's always been short term rentals. So that's given me a lot more comfort to say, okay, I'm okay, kind of taking that leap of having it only makes sense as a vacation rental?   Emil: Well, I had one final question. I asked Michael about the third party property manager because I, what I really want to know is how does your time commitment with a third, like you have property management and on a long term and a short term? How does your monthly time commitment in terms of speaking with your property manager being involved? Like how, how much more time is it with the short term compared to long term, if any?   Michael: You know, I have probably spent less time with the short term manager than I have with long term management. I was so impressed by this company, they've been awesome and they're just like really good at what they do. And I think that universally speaking, that's kind of what I would expect in the long term world as well, I have my that one of the best property managers I have is up in Alaska, I hear from him, like once a quarter, unless we're just calling to check, you know, checkup and chew the fact sort of thing. So if a property manager is good at their job, you really shouldn't hear from them, in order for you to make decisions, they could update you and tell you what's going on and this and that. But from a decision making standpoint, if I have to hear from you and talk to you regularly, like it's probably not going very well. Right Emil how would you spend in those 50 G's?       Emil: For me, if I'm just starting out, and I want to invest in real estate, I'm, I like single family as a first starting point. And we can debate this later on a showdown. I think single family is a good way to get started, I think having one tenant, one unit to worry about just a lot less hectic. And so I'd start with a single family, I would want to do a tier two city, somewhere where the climate isn't so severe, right? Like I have properties in Indianapolis and every winter, I'm like, man, our pipes gonna freeze and explode. You know, you hear all those stories. Usually, if you have a tenant who's there, like they're running the water, and that doesn't happen. But you know, if you have a turn in the winner, always think that could happen. So I choose something with a little bit less harsh climate, just because it's going to keep everything solid for a little bit longer. And I'd probably just use it on one property to get something a little bit better, ewe just talked about on a different episode, six things we wouldn't do, again, six mistakes and for me it was buying a really cheap property on the… in the beginning, I get something a little bit nicer, less headache, you know, newer build, that's just going to be an easy learning process for me, because the first one isn't going to be the make or break. It's really you're just like learning how to deal with real estate how to deal with the property manager all this stuff. So having it be something that's going to be better long term is what I would prioritize.   Michael: Are you okay, accepting less cash flow?   Emil: I wasn't in the beginning and on the other end of it now, yes, you should like it's not going to be a huge difference. You think it will be and you know, excel math will tell you different but it's a different story. I think when you get into it.   Michael: How much cash flow, how small of a cash flow are you willing to accept and still consider it cashflow positive?   Emil: For me like even like if you're being conservative, right, like not going oh, best case scenario, right? You're ending up with like at least $50 of cash flow a month right? I think that's a good place to be at least obviously, I…   Tom: Got to beat inflation, got to beat inflation.   Michael: Beat it back with a stick…   Emil: We don't, you know, we're just talking about cash flow and again, these this isn't going to be a make or break for you. You're trying to learn and you're trying to grow. You also have equity building right in a better property that's going to be more dollar like appreciation. 10% appreciation on something that's $250,000 Verse $100,000, you're gonna make more than that equity anyway, right? It's appreciating, it's a higher appreciation.   Michael: So you're sticking to one, one property… One more expensive property?   Emil: Yes, yeah.   Michael: Alright.   Emil: Not even just expensive to be expensive just better quote like a turnkey, nicely done property that I'm not going to have a ton of headache right out the gate.   Michael: Well, there you have it, ladies and gentlemen.   Tom: It's been a few seconds on zero scape, just installed some fake turf on my backyard. It's killer man.   Michael: Is it good?   Tom: Yeah, yeah. And then like if leaves come on it you get the power washer. And just like my my own little zen…   Michael: What about dog puppies?   Tom: That's a thing. But you know, that's where the power washer. And also that's where gates like preventing the dog to go out there. Come in…   Emil: Anyway, anyways, you could also have a dog like mine who we have we have turf in the backyard too. It's like turf in concrete. And he is afraid of it doesn't like walking on turf. So he makes us take him out in the front yard where there's real grass to go. So that's fun.   Tom: He is natural… Michael: Some… double apply.   Emil: He's a purist. He's got a good taste.   Tom: Good for him.   Michael: So Tom, are you saving some of that 50,000, so you can install zero scaping in this investment property?   Tom: Yeah, probably. I mean, the right warranties are in place with the Zero Escape. You're like basically making money when you install it, so…   Michael: Are you, are you working on zero escape installation side hustle?   Tom: I am yeah, I got a, I got a, I got some, I got some hints.   Michael: You need a guy, I got a guy…   Emil: Probably not that awesome on a rental property. Like the ROI on that is, is not great.   Tom: Nooo, problem.   Michael: Depends on who is paying this utilities though…   Emil: Yeah…   Michael: If you include these utilities in your bill…   Emil: It's your tenant.   Tom: Oh…There could be markets Emil, before you jump the gun. There could be markets with it makes a ton of sense, Las Vegas, Arizona…   Emil: I prefer talking generalities, we're not getting into nuance on this on this podcast, sorry…   Michael: I thought you only spoken absolutes.   Emil: That's it, that's it…   Michael: Now you're speaking in generalities. Man pick one Emil.   Tom: Yeah.   Emil: Ehmm, absolute is what I met. It's not... Moving on. Alright, what do we do with $50,000 now? If $50,000 is now, in your investing career, what are you guys doing? You're not a beginner, you're at your stage now, so what's next?   Tom: I am making the transition to getting some multifamily, you know, I don't know, I don't actually know short term, Michael's got me hyped up on some learn a lot more about short term, I don't know. I'm all over the place right now. This is what I'm gonna do, this is what I am gonna do actually, I'm going to set up a coaching session with Michael and we're going to go through some options and get to the root of it. I swear to God, that's like the real answer, right.   Emil: That is actually a very solid strategy. Alright, Michael 50,000, I feel like I know where you're, where you're putting money, but if 50,000, where's it going?   Michael: Yeah. Now in today's world, I'm probably splitting that. Truth be told I'm probably do you like for sure a short term rental 50% down DSCR loan, and then I'll probably wait half or two thirds and then I'm taking the other half and I'll probably park it in a syndication to be perfectly honest and just kind of enjoy the passivity that syndications provide. It's, we've been doing a lot of podcasts recently and had a lot of passive investment experts on talking about benefits, pros cons of passive investing, and I'm like, huh at this stage of my career, it's definitely sounds interesting. My back's already, you know, a little tired from from caring so much. So I'm ready to slow down a little bit and just kind of enjoy the fruits of the labor.   Emil: Nice, yeah. I'm sagging into what I'd do, I'm right there with you. So I like that I have nowhere near the amount of units like you, right that I own directly, I have six units. I think that's perfect for me and where I'm at right now, I would put $50,000 honestly, either in a REIT or yeah, in a in a private deal or something like that. Something where I'm going to be completely passive. Just given we've got two little kids, we got the six units again, that we own directly and that takes off takes up enough time and you know, business I started a year ago that's taking up a lot of time as well and attention. So I'd be looking for something passive to pocket.   Michael: I love the fact that Emil, you mentioned that you have like little kids and so you're kind of at this stage in your life where the active hands on direct investment isn't a great fit for you. But that could easily change and so you go park your money and one of these indications. Hopefully it doubles or better in a couple years' time and then you get it back and you get to decide okay, well what I want to do next I want to continue the passive route now maybe the kids a little bit older, you have more time on your hands to do something else. So I love it. I think it's, it's such a good point that there's like seasonality to this whole investing thing.   Emil: Yeah, it's not like, I'm done direct investing. It's, I'm done direct investing right now. Like, we have what we have, we're good, we're not getting rid of those and it's time for a different strategy. But you know, life changes, maybe you have a windfall, whatever, and you're like, now I'm bored. And I want to go do something more challenging and I'm gonna go do some, some value add stuff myself, maybe even like, in a market closer to me, or what did you know there are just so many different ways you can take this and it's not like those strategies you start with is going to be the strategy you end with.   Michael: Mike drop Emil out.   Emil: Don't listen to me, I don't know what I'm talking about.   Michael: That's great, man. I love it, I love it… Should we get out of here?   Emil: Yeah, let's do it.   So thanks, everybody, appreciate you tuning in for another episode, hope you got some value out of this one. And as always, please leave us a review or subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. We love seeing that number go up, it boosts your ego and it keeps us coming back every week. So we'll catch you all in the next one. Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing.  

【句子】Hold it. Are you saying that we should put a stop to this? 【Desperate Housewives S01E22】 【发音】/həʊld/ /ɪt/ /ɑː(r)/ /juː/ /ˈseɪ.ɪŋ/ /ðæt/ /wiː/ /ʃʊd/ /pʊt/ /ə/ /stɒp/ /stɑːp/ /tʊ/ /ðɪs/【发音技巧】Hold it连读；that we不完全爆破；should put失去爆破；put a连读+闪音；stop to失去爆破；【翻译】慢着，你是说我们应该出面阻止这件事吗？【适用场合】今天这期节目中我们来学习一个非常简单的短语：Hold it，一起来看看它的意思！ It is used to ask to sb. to wait, or not to move.稍等；别动；等一下；eg: Hold it, everybody! This doesn't make sense.慢着，大家！这根本说不通啊eg: Hold it, let that woman cross the street first.别急，让那个女人先过马路。eg: Hold it right there! You're under arrest!别动，你被捕了！eg: Tom: Hold it! Mary: What's wrong? Tom: You almost stepped on my contact lens.汤姆：别动！玛丽：怎么了？汤姆：你差点踩到我的隐形眼镜。谈到表达“慢着！”“等一下！”意思的短语，我们其实在之前的节目中学过。比如：hold that thought，和hang on，忘记的朋友们可以点链接复习一下！> > 点我复习hold that thought < > 点我复习hang on

【句子】Hold it. Are you saying that we should put a stop to this? 【Desperate Housewives S01E22】 【发音】/həʊld/ /ɪt/ /ɑː(r)/ /juː/ /ˈseɪ.ɪŋ/ /ðæt/ /wiː/ /ʃʊd/ /pʊt/ /ə/ /stɒp/ /stɑːp/ /tʊ/ /ðɪs/【发音技巧】Hold it连读；that we不完全爆破；should put失去爆破；put a连读+闪音；stop to失去爆破；【翻译】慢着，你是说我们应该出面阻止这件事吗？【适用场合】今天这期节目中我们来学习一个非常简单的短语：Hold it，一起来看看它的意思！ It is used to ask to sb. to wait, or not to move.稍等；别动；等一下；eg: Hold it, everybody! This doesn't make sense.慢着，大家！这根本说不通啊eg: Hold it, let that woman cross the street first.别急，让那个女人先过马路。eg: Hold it right there! You're under arrest!别动，你被捕了！eg: Tom: Hold it! Mary: What's wrong? Tom: You almost stepped on my contact lens.汤姆：别动！玛丽：怎么了？汤姆：你差点踩到我的隐形眼镜。谈到表达“慢着！”“等一下！”意思的短语，我们其实在之前的节目中学过。比如：hold that thought，和hang on，忘记的朋友们可以点链接复习一下！> > 点我复习hold that thought < > 点我复习hang on

Oxide and Friends Twitter Space: August 16th, 2021The Showstopper ShowWe've been holding a Twitter Space weekly on Mondays at 5p for about an hour. Even though it's not (yet?) a feature of Twitter Spaces, we have been recording them all; here is the recording for our Twitter Space for August 16th, 2021.In addition to Bryan Cantrill and Adam Leventhal, speakers on August 16th included special guests G. Pascal Zachary (see gpascalzachary.com), and Jessamyn West (see jessamyn.medium.com), as well as Dan Cross, Tom Lyon, Josh Clulow, and others. (Did we miss your name and/or get it wrong? Drop a PR!)Some of the topics we hit on, in the order that we hit them: G. Pascal Zachary's “Showstopper! The Breakneck Race to Create Windows NT and the Next Generation at Microsoft” book Tracy Kidder's “The Soul of a New Machine” book [@0:46](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=46) “The endless debate of NT vs Unix.” Bryan: My whole career was kind of defined by going where Windows wasn't. I don't know what I was expecting, but what I found was a real time capsule from software development in the 90's. [@2:46](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=166) Jessamyn: There was some familial impact (from developing DG Eclipse) that wasn't mentioned in the book. “O, Engineers!” retrospective from wired [@6:30](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=390) What was Kidder's process? “He lived in my house!” [@8:32](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=512) Zachary interviewed family members extensively. > People couldn't leave, they were staying at the office all the time. [@14:23](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=863) I do feel this is a time capsule. A time before two mega-trends hit: the Internet and open source. [@17:33](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1053) Microsoft was kind of a joke software company in the early 90's. > Dave Cutler was a force of nature. [@19:59](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1199) No one understood why someone was good at coding. It was a mystery to everyone, why there was such a wide stratification of coders. > There were projects that never saw the light of day.  Ashton-Tate, dBase > There was a sense from Cutler and Perazzoli, that leadership of the team, > that these guys at Microsoft really didn't get how serious the process > of building this battleship was. I think the level of anguish did surprise me. [@23:59](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1439) In “Soul of the New Machine,” the machine was the star, and people served it. East Coast vs West Coast attitudes. > On the West Coast, the personal computer were supposed to help you > actualize your counter-cultural values.  Ken Olsen of DEC > Computing is equivalent with IBM. There was no software industry > so long as IBM gave all the software away for free. [@26:09](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1569) Crashes. > Wozniak dreamed of owning > his own PDP > computer, which cost as much as a house. So he was aware of the robustness > of the minicomputer, and by contrast, the puny power of a personal computer.  Thirtysomething > Dave Cutler was not cuddly. He was menacing, he could lose his temper. > And I tried not to get to close to him physically for that reason. > There were two looming father figures in Cutler and Gates. > And I think it created a lot of anxiety. [@29:52](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1792) The stakes for NT at Microsoft were high.  Fred Brooks' “The Mythical Man-Month” book > It was a watershed moment in the history of computing. > It was more like the last battleship, rather than the next frontier. Bryan: I didn't realize this, that Gates was arguing against memory protection with Cutler. From our perspective, shipping an operating system without memory protection, in an era when microprocessors supported it, is malpractice. [@33:14](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=1994) Cutler's vendetta against Unix. > Conflict was at the heart of innovation at Microsoft at that time.  Mitch Kapor of Lotus. > These early personal computer innovators were dismissed and sometimes > humiliated by mainstream big iron people of the 60's and 70's. Bill Gates' “The Road Ahead” book doesn't mention the internet. Zachary's “Endless Frontier: Vannevar Bush, Engineer of the American Century” book > Computers on the West Coast were seen as extensions of your creativity, > and a tool for liberation. And for a long time that dominated the horizons. In 2005 Gates and Ballmer don't want to do cloud computing. “Who's gonna want to put their stuff in the cloud?” We've found that computing is a collective experience. [@38:28](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=2308) Email and personal messaging  Sun Ray thin client computer Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson's “The UNIX time-sharing system” paper > Unix was an experiment in collaboration. RSX-11 for the PDP-11. And VMS for the VAX. > The attitude of looking down on Unix (as undesigned, academic) is > carried forward by Microsofties today. Tom: You can forgive Cutler's misgivings, because Unix pretty much stole the thunder out of VMS. [@42:24](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=2544) Interviews for the book. Family members perspective on workplace behavior.  Betty Shanahan, Society of Women Engineers. Brief Q&A EAGLE (Eclipse Appreciation and Gratitude for Lonely Evenings) award > Betty's husband got an award for having to do his own laundry… Jessamyn's “Women in Early Tech” blog entry about Shanahan [@48:10](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=2890) Where did these engineers end up? They are broadly no longer engineers. This project burned people out.  Short 1993 article by Zachary: “After two years in ship mode… a lot of people are angry, tired, and burned out.” Johanne Caron, linkedin Pascal: Kidder was like a fly on the wall. I was doing reconstruction as well as observation. I talked to family members to get the whole picture. [@53:20](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=3200) Cutler got to run his own show. > Ken Olsen was like the LBJ > of the computer industry: he's waist deep in the big money.  Corporate culture. Hotshot coders. Renegades, rebels, hero programmers. > It's the majesty and mystery of code writing, that there's such a wide > range of performance. Pascal: I wasn't invited to the 25 year anniversary of the NT team.. [@1:01:47](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=3707) Journalists and companies. > Soul of a New Machine was very flattering to the company.  Jobs backdated stock options, in violation of clear federal law. Gates repeatedly stole things. > The hobbyists were a small market, Microsoft needed to sell to corporations. Zachary's “Software, the Invisible Technology” 2016 essay > Where we used to relate to programs, we now relate to services. I think there needs to be a greater literature of software: the making of it, its purpose, its vulnerabilities, its values.Tom: It's because us practitioners are too embarrased about it all.. [@1:05:49](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=3949) Josh compares and contrasts. > Coders don't have to test their own stuff. The second stringers do that.  Pascal: I would encourage people to write more about software and how it's created. Zachary's “Code Rush” film ~56mins about Netscape. [@1:08:58](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=4138) The rise of open source. Software as immutable artifact: once it's written, it's written. > Amazon, Google, Netflix are not possible without open source. [@1:10:50](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=4250) Jessamyn on helping people use tech. Accessibility > I'm a service oriented person. I work with > people who are struggling with technology. [@1:15:24](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=4524) Agency of users. > Bryan: Without memory protection, you would lose hours of work. > One bad application could cause the computer to reboot.  Open source tools, and user accessible scripting/modding. Gary Larson's “The Far Side” comic “Blah blah blah Ginger” Tweet series about Internet Explorer's 25 year anniversary [@1:22:01](https://youtu.be/hlQuF75L4TE?t=4921) Pascal's parting thoughts. > The transformation of software from artifact into service, > is both fabulous and also scary. It changes all the time. > When NT was done, it was a fixed unchanging thing.  Bryan: The darker side to services is people need to attend to it whenever it breaks. Adam: It's the death march with no end. > Pascal: Thanks everyone, I'd love to hear from you individually. > I'm interested in why people continue to turn to Showstopper > and find some value in it. Pascal: I encourage you to think about the literary aspects of software. I think it's valuable for society and civilization, for our culture, because there really is an artistic, artisanal side to software. Thanks again for including me. If we got something wrong or missed something, please file a PR! Our next Twitter space will likely be on Monday at 5p Pacific Time; stay tuned to our Twitter feeds for details. We'd love to have you join us, as we always love to hear from new speakers!

Ep 9 - Theory Bites 2: Youth Liberation & The First PrisonWe've got another short Theory Bites! First we discuss Youth Liberation - (I)An-ok Ta Chai, 2004, and then First Prison - William Gillis, 2018 Case Closed / Detective Conan (video)Flanders' Parents (video)Dead Poets Society Dad (video - was that last episode?)Rutger Bregman Real Life Lord of the Flies (article)Angelica's Last Stand (paywalled video)When schools become The Lord of the Rings (tweet) https://www.worksintheorypodcast.com Twitter: @workstheorypodInstagram: works.in.theory Produced, edited, and transcribed by Allyson https://www.forestfreeter.comTheme song by http://woulg.com/Transcript:Works in TheoryTheory Bites: Youth Liberation and The First PrisonElysha: [00:00:00] Hello, and welcome to another Works In Theory - Theory Bites. I am Elysha here from Works In Theory Podcast, and I am here with Tom-Tom: Tom!Elysha: And Nate. Nate: I'm Nate. Elysha: Yes. I don't know why we wanted folks to say their own names, but I did. And they did it. And I love that. So thank you. Nate: Yeah.Elysha: We're going to try and smush two articles together today for this one bite. So this is big bite or two small bites. Both of these articles came from the anarchist library dot org. Which is sort of a loosely moderated library, archive of different anarchist texts. And I wanted to mention that because they're a great resource. If you're interested in browsing around for yourself,Tom: But you shouldn't have to, our podcast is all you need. So don't worry too much [00:01:00] about that.Elysha: Yeah, but just, just so that, you know, the tool is out there, you don't need it. You don't need you. Didn't, it's fine. But like it's, anarchist library dot org, and I just really wanted to mention it for these two texts because, the authors of these, you may not have heard of in the same way that you've heard of Emma Goldman.So we've got two pieces here. I'm really not sure what order we're going to do them in, but we've got one by William Gillis, which is called The First Prison and one by (I)An-ok Ta Chai, which is called Youth Liberation. Nate: So I say, let's start with the youth liberation piece. Both because it's written earlier it's from 2004 versus the other one is from 2018. And because it's a little shorter.Tom: Yeah. So the the premise of this one, the kind of question that I think I took out of it was we treat adults as infallible and self-sufficient children are incapable. But like, is that true? And are we just conditioning children for subservience to the state capitalism, other forms of control? Or [00:02:00] should we treat them with mutual respect and treat it like any other issue, any other anarchist position?And it's similar to the Goldman piece, but I think it's it's got some distinctions. For one thing, I think it's a little more extreme.Nate: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. In fact, you keep saying children, but the author actually would prefer that we say kids.Tom: Oh, you're right!Nate: Yeah, they bring up the fact that children sort of has like a connotation of like "childish", of like, "less developed" you know, just like built right into it. And even though the piece is called Youth Liberation, they said youth tends to refer to teenagers, which is, you know, generally correct.And so what they're talking about as a, gerontocracy like just an overall system of like hierarchy in which adults have domination over kids. Elysha: The piece kind of opens up, asking the question of: how are people in society treated? And you can tell a lot about society based on how they treat their children and they're elderly. And I feel like we're kind of at like, [00:03:00] an era of reckoning with that, at least around here, we had so much trouble with like care homes for elderly people through the pandemic and schools brought up their absolute array of challenges as well.And you know, not all of those are specifically rooted in like how we treat children, but kind of they are. And the idea that yeah - what we're talking about here, that kids are entirely dependent on those structures and require that control that like you have to go to school, you have to decide every aspect of their lives and it needs to be within the structure.Maybe our, all of our lives would be a lot easier if we were a little easier on like those early years. Nate: Yeah, definitely. And you know, you bring up this idea that kids according to our society, like need to be controlled need to like, not be able to make their own decisions because they're dependent, you know? The other says it's an often [00:04:00] unspoken notion that adults are omniscient or infallible or not dependent on help and support while kids are.Which of course is not true. Right? Like adults make mistakes all the time, just like kids do. But we don't base any sort of specific hierarchy over adults that way, like, I thought this was kind of interesting food for thought. The other says:"It all becomes apparent if one reflects on how it proposition to systematically dominate people who are physically ill, injured, ignorant ill-informed, or intoxicated, all of which are also temporary conditions like childhood that would be universally laughed at and dismissed."I guess the idea here is the same arguments that say kids, you need to be dominated. Could also be used to say that injured, ignorant or intoxicated people need to be dominated because, you know, they can make stupid mistakes or they are not infallible or omniscient. But of course we wouldn't say that it's right for those people to be dominated. Tom: Yeah. If we didn't let intoxicated people have free will, we wouldn't have much of a government, [00:05:00] I think. Elysha: Or a lot of art. Tom: That's true too.Nate: It's interesting you bring bec ause we talked about this a little bit offline, but when I was reading this part about the idea that we wouldn't let adults who are, you know, in some way in capable of making their own decisions, we wouldn't let them be dominated.That's actually not exactly true. You know, and I brought up the, the whole Free Britney thing with Britney Spears and her conservatorship. Like the whole idea behind that is that she is not, you know, for whatever reason able to make her own decisions. And therefore, like there are other people who are legally able to dominate her and make decisions for her. The whole Free Britney Movement is the idea that we recognize that's wrong, that she is able to make her own decisions and she should be allowed to make mistakes just like anybody else. But it's all premised on this idea that she's somehow more childlike, you know? And that brings in this idea that, that like, well, why is, why is that accepted for children? You know, I think a lot of the arguments for Free Britney would use [00:06:00] language like, "Well, she's an adult. She can make her own decisions." But like children can make their own decisions too.Tom: Yeah. And like, this comes up a lot with acting, especially where, like children are often taken advantage of by parents and by agents or whatever. They work them a lot and make a lot of money off with the kids and the kids don't see any of it. And usually end up kind of wrecking their lives because it's very traumatic to kind of like have that duality of life where you're seen as a superstar that doesn't make any money and has no will.Nate: Yeah, exactly. It's hard to imagine that these kids would be any worse off if they were allowed to make decisions themselves.Elysha: No doubt. Tom: I have a quote here:"The domination of kids breaks the wills of people and inserts authoritarian programming, so that they can later reproduce situations such as the state capitalism and gerontocracy when they get older themselves."Nate: Yeah. A hundred percent and yeah. So I don't know how you, you all feel about this. Like how much you agree with the idea of youth liberation. You [00:07:00] know, I think I do agree with it and it's broad terms. I don't think I agree with everything we were going to talk about in both of these pieces. One point that the author makes towards the end, which I think is salient and worth keeping in mind is that like these kinds of things that seem really natural, these like hierarchies that seem really natural are like exactly the type of things that as anarchists we should be questioning. Cause every hierarchy at some point was considered natural.Tom: They say:"Youth liberation is not a new idea, a lot of people have written about it and articulated it in different ways. There are already a number of people out there practicing, or at least trying to practice autonomy, respecting ways of relating with kids. With this being the case, it only makes sense for anarchists to have youth liberation fully integrated with the rest of the anarchist perspective, gerontocracy needs to be right up there with capitalism, the state patriarchy and white supremacy as institutions of social control that as anarchists, we aim to destroy."Elysha: Can we spend this into a discussion of one of those other institutions of social control - the piece by William Gillis that we're reading is [00:08:00] called The First PrisonNate: I think it's time to move on to that one.Elysha: One of the main points that we wanted to highlight is the idea that adult supremacy, gerontocracy, paints itself as a kind of meritocracy, you're only denied political agency because you don't yet have mental agency, but there is no mechanism, not a single one under adults who primacy whereby a six year old might prove qualifications to obtain their freedom and equal status.So in this world that we live in, there's nothing a kid can do to prove to you that they deserve to make whichever decision is that you're withholding from them. The only way to do that to gain that freedom is to graduate away from childhood turn 18, turn 14, turn 16, turn 21, whatever the arbitrary number is that all of a sudden means that yes, we can finally make those decisions for ourselves out of nowhere.And this is probably like tying back into some of the other conversations we've had [00:09:00] of not being given the tools of like critical thinking and like that decision making, like that first taste of freedom is like, just when your ID says that you are old enough.Nate: Yeah, or well, and Gillis says in his mind, it's actually that you, the reason the teenagers are given autonomy is simply because they're now big enough to fight back. They're big enough to beat up their parents. Elysha: They can band together for resistance and physically overwhelmed their masters. Would you say, would William Gillis say. Nate: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Which is interesting, you know, like, and this. Did give me pause. You know, when you think about it, like it is obviously, if you were to try to explain youth liberation to somebody who'd never heard about it, I think one of their first responses would be something like, "well, you know, kids just aren't smart enough or aren't mature enough to make their own decisions."And then, you know, if you come back, could a child do to prove to you, they were mature enough? Like, would you accept some proof from a six-year-old that they were mature enough to make their own decisions? And, you know, I certainly can't that go, [00:10:00] but that would be so.Tom: That's one of the, I think the major premises in this article is about, you know, if you were suddenly transformed into a child, it's a very like Detective Conan, anime sort of premise of like, if you were a kid, would you suddenly be able to convince people that you know enough to do things without them controlling your life and - probably not, but I don't know. I found it interesting that as time went on, we went from a hundred years ago to, you know, 2004 to now 2018 in this one, it has gotten more and more - I mean, like of course we have cherry picked, we just gotten three articles, but - it just got more extreme sounding. Maybe it's something to be extreme about. Like, it's been a hundred years since Goldman wrote, you know, about the child and its enemies. And we're still basically dealing with the same question: at what point do we treat children like people or sorry, kids. I keep doing that.I honestly think that (I)An-ok Ta C hai made [00:11:00] a pretty good point, that we use children as a derogatory kind of word. So I've been really trying to think about like, should I, maybe I should exercise that from my vocabulary and just say kids.Elysha: Yeah. I'm probably not gonna like fight people over it, but I think it's definitely worth considering just because of how powerful, like the words that we use and their connotations are. Right. The idea of like childish and all those negatives. But it sort of painting the idea of like lacking that autonomy, lacking the good sense to be able to make decisions. And that is "childish," like trying to separate those from the young human individuals in question. Nate: From the kids. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And actually I think Gillis even sort of expands on that a little and, and adds a little bit more weight to that argument. He points out that like all hierarchy is like, whether it be white supremacy, patriarchy, et cetera, like they're all sort of premised on this analogy of the oppressed class [00:12:00] as childish, you know, as more childlike than the oppressor class.So, it's built into the very language of all hierarchies.Elysha: We talk about, you know, what is the root of like injustice in our society. And there is not one that is how it got to be. It gets to be so pervasive. Like just all the different layers that we all get fucked around in the world. And like, yes, absolutely age is one of those.And gerontocracy is one of those right alongside, obviously with different historical weights, of you white supremacy and the other ones that you mentioned, patriarchy.Tom: Yeah, there's a quote in this piece that says:"Every hierarchy, every abuse, every act of domination that seeks to justify or excuse itself, appeals through analogy to the rule of adults over children. We're all indoctrinated from birth in ways of, "Because I said so." The flags of supposed experience, benevolence, and familial obligation are are the first of many paraded through our lives to celebrate the suppression of our agency, the dismissal of our desires, the reduction of our personhood. Our whole [00:13:00] world is caught in a cycle of abuse, largely unexamined and unnamed. And at its root lies our dehumanization of children." Nate: And I think that sort of brings it back to what I mentioned earlier about this sort of like seeming natural, this like hierarchy of adults over children seeming natural. Opponents of this idea of youth liberation might point to like non-human animals, and be like, well, look like every, every species has adults or at least mammals have adults that in birds have adults that take care of children or that are like in charge of children.And I think that, like, that kind of puts me in the mind of, of Bookchin's argument: the hierarchy is different than having different roles. So like, yes adult bird has to feed and teaches children how to fly, but in no sense, does a dominate the baby birds, does it like tell the baby birds what to do.And so I think that we can use that notion of hierarchy as being like, sort of like a systemic thing an institutionalized thing to dispense with the idea that somehow the [00:14:00] hierarchy of adults over children is natural.Tom: Yeah, but appeals to nature- they don't do it for me. So like, even, even if you're able to be like, yeah, but the mama bear, I don't know, puts their cubs to bed at 8:00 PM. I'd be like, I don't care. Like mama bear, can't speak. I need to talk to humans about human things. This also is a pretty I think contentious essay when we talked about it, we were a little, like, some of this maybe is, is advocating for a position, but not giving a lot of evidence as to why I think. And for instance, there was a point in it about the cool aunt and I think we all had kind of, some questions about that. I don't actually have anything written. Does anyone have anything written about.Nate: Well, Hey, let me let me find the quote here so we can give the listeners some context. Gillis says:" The cool aunt, the preschool teacher functioning as an aid relief worker to come briefly to take selfies with you as a prop. They're not co-conspirators, they're the incomplete flotsam, the corpses of children who tried to make it over the finish line intact. Incomplete insurgents into adulthood were worn [00:15:00] down and forgot that mission. They're not undercover children, but the warped remains. Poorly formed adults perhaps, but adults still."He's talking about, people who try to give children more agency, I guess, or try to like respect children more. Yeah. That's not cutting it for Gillis. But like you said, Tom, I'm not exactly clear on why. Elysha: Yeah. Or like what, the alternative is that Gillis wants from us. Nate: Yeah, what would be a complete insurgent or an undercover child. Elysha: Cause there is definitely a gap there that needs to be bridged. Because like we are told like we've been talking about here, like all of these experiences in childhood. Lead us to then reproduce that gerontocracy that same like hierarchy of adults over children.And, you know, the idea here that even the cool aunt, who's trying to show up for you. Like they're still not doing it. And I get like the impulse to be combative at [00:16:00] that, but it doesn't really provide any sort of like, ideas of like how we can make that better. It's just "this sucks." And like, "they're not here for you and no one's coming to free you."Tom: Is the only real solution here that this cool aunt, or this person should like take you from your parents and be like "here's a hundred dollars on a car, have fun. Your life begins now." Like, what is, what is the what is it, the inclination, what are we supposed to do with that feeling? It paints a good picture of, you know, there's the uncle that smokes weed or whatever. And they're cool. They're not real strict and they're not whatever, but at the end of the day you have to go back to your parents. And so I guess they're not liberating enough, so, but I don't know what it would be. And maybe Gillis is just pointing out that these things exist and they're not contradictory to what I'm saying.Nate: Yeah, for sure. And you know, maybe it has something to do with, like, if we're [00:17:00] taking, Gillis' worldview at its word. Because it's so systemic because like we live in a adult supremacist society, a gerontocracy like adults can never be totally complicit because they can always if push comes to shove, resort to ordering children around.But yeah, like, I don't know, that's it just seems like a bleak picture. Like can there not be a John Brown of adults for children? I don't know. So what do you all think about this idea of youth liberation and everything we've read in these two essays and the Goldman piece? Tom: I think it's really gotten me to think a lot about it. Of course I don't have children, so it's hard. I can't put anything to practice. I can only be the cool uncle or whatever which I've been trying to be. My, my partner is doing better than me, even there you know, telling their brother stop yelling at your kids.But I don't know, the main issues I see with this is that it's kind of like a chicken and the egg thing of like, well, how do we get to a point of youth liberation without fundamentally changing all of society? [00:18:00] But how do we fundamentally change all of society without changing now that you're liberating you with? Right. Nate: Yeah, definitely. You know, and I think, I, I agree with you in that, like it's given me a lot to think about. And as I mentioned, when we were talking about the first piece, I think that we should be questioning things that seem natural, hierarchies that seem natural. And I think that there's definitely an amount of adult supremacy in our society.Maybe the answer is something that we talked about in the Dewey episode. That idea that like adults have had more experience and that can guide children while still letting children make the decisions themselves. I don't think it's oppressive to stop somebody from touching a hot stove, right?Elysha: Something that I've been thinking about a little bit is so, near me, there is a Land Back camp. Some of the local indigenous folks have come together and reclaimed some land. There's just so much that they are learning and some of it they are sharing. I heard a really wonderful [00:19:00] conversation about the ways that youth leadership emerges in their land back camp and how really, it feels like it comes down to just giving everyone involved the space to be themselves and just, you know, treating everyone as humans, treating kids as humans because they are, and they have agency and they have ideas and they have passions.A lot of like beauty and like new ceremony and stuff, has come out of teenagers who have proposed ideas for action to everyone and like just the power that comes out of that. I think that Indigenous resistance movements like from what I've noticed, like they do a great job of centering youth as the future. Nate: And just like acknowledging that I good ideas can come from youth, right. You know, there may be some things we know better than kids, just because we've been around longer. But in a sense, this is like that old thing of like, deferring to the boot maker in [00:20:00] the topic of boots.Right? To tell a kid that doesn't know that a hot stove is going to burn them, not to touch a stove isn't being oppressive. Just like plumber is not oppressing me when he tells me how to do something with my plumbing. And what we just have to be careful not to. Turn that into an idea where we always know better than kids in every circumstance, but like you were saying, Elysha acknowledged that kids can teach us things too.Elysha: And there are definitely things that can come with experience. If we're specifically talking about this Land Back camp experience, there are youth there that probably don't know a lot of the traditional, like land skills, like, building shelter and like keeping fire and that kind of thing.That all needs to be taught as well. You're not oppressing people by sharing what, you know, in that way. It's kind of just how building those relationships work. Tom: You know, I was trying to think of like, when did we show respect to kids? When do we treat them as adults? And it's usually when they do something for, I'm going to say [00:21:00] capitalism? Like, you know, they invent something, they, make some progress, some invention or some science thing. I understand that science is not directly capitalistic inherently, but it's kind of like it's in service to it right now. And so, much of what we see of kids as being like, you know, good work is usually you're doing, you know, something that we expect from adults.Nate: Or like,, I don't know, on a more positive example, like Gretta Thunberg.Elysha: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Tom: Which once, once that started you know, kind of bucking against the system, she got a lot less play time. Right?Nate: Definitely. And even that though, like, and this is something that Gillis points out when he talks about "how would you be able to prove yourself?" If a kid somehow like does prove to be incredibly intelligent, skips a bunch of grades and goes to college as a kid, you know, it's like, they're just treated as like precocious, but like, it's not like they get autonomy.It's not like their parents don't get to make decisions. Tom: There's a [00:22:00] really great episode of Rugrats if you've ever seen that that show or that episode where angelica starts a lemondate stand, but like as a capitalist and then the workers basically rise up unionize, start their own stand, like make it a worker co-op. It's really incredible.Speaking of kids working, that's a very dangerous topic maybe to bring up. But I think it's, you know, it's not in any of these pieces, but it's something I think we talked a little bit about and I've been just thinking about it a bunch.When can kids work? What is child labor? We don't bat an eye at Bob's Burgers really, cause it's a family affair, and it's a cartoon. But like that's allowed, right? Like kids can work for their family. I think under the normal age of legally working.Nate: Yeah. And so it like brings up this question of like, would youth autonomy, would youth liberation mean that like kids were free to be wage slaves? But I think, you know, we talked about this a bit offline. I think that, like, what's interesting about that is it sort of like brings up the [00:23:00] libertarian argument of the, you know, the sort of lie that when you become a wage slave, like you're somehow entering into like, like you're, you're choosing to enter into a contract. That you're like, you know, like making a free choice to, to become an employee. It's sort of reinforced by the idea that we don't let kids do it. Well, kids can't become wage slaves because that's a mutually agreed upon contract. And only like adults who are able to make those sort of decisions can become wage slaves.But maybe the answer is just that all work is exploitative, whether it's with adults or with children.Elysha: There's a lot of work that we do that's not really considered work though. Like if we're talking, talking about like, what does it mean for kids to work? We were talking about this a little bit too, and I don't know if it gets too spirally, but like what qualifies as work and what work is appropriate for kids? Tom: And like, I can see if, if you take out the, the need to make money to survive, that opens up a lot more of the dialogue- how do we [00:24:00] determine what's appropriate? And it's kind of interesting because he would still end up with, you know, the parents would probably have some amount of a say over what kind of jobs or what kind of work that a kid would do.But you'd also wouldn't require it, right? It would be a lot easier to figure out, I think those kinds of thorny areas of, you know, what is appropriate, what is not, because it would just be kind of obvious. It'd be like, well, look, this is very difficult work. It's dangerous, children shouldn't be doing it. You shouldn't make your children do it. There's no reason to do it because we don't need money. You know, you're not doing it for a profit or whatever. So it just takes away a lot of those incentives to make people do stupid, bad things at an earlier age.Nate: Yeah, the idea being that is wrong to make kids work because it's wrong to exploit them, to force them to do something they don't want to do. But then like, it's okay to exploit adults. It's okay to force adults to do something they don't want to do, but maybe, we just shouldn't be forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.Tom: Thinking about, you know, the inverse of this, what happens with [00:25:00] youth liberation and the common conception I think of what that looks like is something like Flanders parentsin The Simpsons where it's just like, "we've tried nothing, we're all out of ideas."Like they don't know how to raise their child, they don't do anything. And I think that can be something that can be done, but I don't know, like where, what is the middle ground? Is it actually true? Like as someone, without kids, I don't know what it would be like to not punish children or to punish children.Right. Like, I don't know the actual material consequences of what happens when I make a decision based around my own personal belief system or whatever. Like does it play out? And that's the thing that I think is missing from these essays, maybe. And I don't have a clear understanding of what it is. And that's, I think again, like what the Dewey book was trying to get at was more structure around that.Nate: Yeah. So you're saying the popular conception would be, well, if we don't force kids to do stuff that just kinda like run wild and [00:26:00] be like terrible little brats or something.Tom: Yeah, Yeah.Nate: Again, like with us not having kids talk to say whether that's true or not, but, I think that, especially like in the Goldman piece, she talked about, well, no, like children are humans who can come to their own conclusions of what's good and bad.And, you know, I think that these authors would, would say that that's not the case that letting kids do what they want is not going to lead to total chaos. And like you said,in Dewey, he says we can guide kids and use our experience to suggest to them what might be the best experiences to have.But that doesn't necessarily have to be the same thing as forcing them to do what we want them to do.Tom: Yeah, not to answer my own question, but there was that Lord of the Flies article, which I'll link in the show notes, but where, you know, a lot of people look at Lord of the Flies as an example of what would happen if kids could do whatever they wanted. And that it would just be like just terrible tribal chaos, basically.When really it just ends up being like trying to do the right thing, do the best thing as you can. Nate: Yeah. And she was saying something like, you have to [00:27:00] basically this argument that we've been talking about, that you have to like force rules on kids or else it's going to be Lord of the Rings/Lord of the Flies.Tom: But always trying to steal your precious.Nate: Yes.Elysha: It was a bad tweet, but we could link that in the show notes too. Tom: Yeah, I'm good. Elysha: All right. Well, we did it. Thanks for making your way through another Theory Bites with Works In Theory Podcast, and we will be back when we're back! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Thank you for tuning in for another episode of Life's Best Medicine. Joining the show today is film-maker, blogger, comedian, journalist, and author Tom Naughton. He is the creator of the 2009 documentary film, Fat Head, and is the author the children's book, Fat Head Kids. In this episode, Brian and Tam discuss censorship on Twitter, the problem with taboo discussion topics in scientific fields and in society at large, the similarities between athletes and standup comedians, the dissolution of discourse in the United States, and Post-Modernist philosophy. Life's Best Medicine According to Tom: “You have to be who you are. You have to be the best you that you can be, but you have to be who you are. There are people who are going to like you— those are your people—and there are people who are not going to like you—those are not your people. Do not ever change who you really are so that the people who are not your people anyway might like you a little better” Thank you for listening. Have a blessed day and stay healthy!   Links:   Tom Naughton: Fat Head Movie Website Twitter   Dr. Brian Lenzkes:  Website Low Carb MD Podcast   Simply Snackin'

Who is Tom Robertson? (3:00) 1099 contractors vs W2. (18:00) Common employment predicaments. (29:00) Exempt vs non-exempt individuals. (34:00) Furlough vs reduction in force. (42:00) FIghting an unemployment case – y or n. (47:00) How to implement these changes. (52:00) Quotable Moments “1099 is miscellaneous non-wage income. A W2 is someone performing work for us and that is an employee.” – Tom “When you get into things with the US department of labor – you don't have to settle with them, but if you don't, you run the possibility of litigation.” – Tom “If you don't know something, go find someone that can help you like an attorney, like Tom Robertson.” – Khalil “For a salary non-exempt, you'll still pay overtime. With the salary exempt, we pay them a fixed amount every week.” – Tom “An administrative person is an office or non-manual person who does the general business of the employer, or even the employers. They have discretion and independent judgment in what they do.” – Tom “You can't just say “I'm going to pay you a salary.” There are some tests that are met with a dangerous third-party labor commission that can come in and determine who should have been paid overtime.” – Martin “Oklahoma is an at-will state. You can fire for any reason or no reason at all, as long as it's not illegal/discriminatory.” – Tom “This is a process. Employment law is complex and has a lot of details. There are a lot of things that you cover, but the complexity doesn't mean you don't address it, but you can do it one at a time.” – Tom Resources Contact Tom Robertson Check us out on Youtube Follow us on social media: LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram Subscribe to our newsletter, The Countdown Have questions? Email us! More from Martin theprofitproblem.com annealbc.com    martin@anealbc.com  LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from Khalil benali.com  khalil@benali.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram More from The Cashflow Contractor Ask Us A Question Sign Up For A Free Consultation thecashflowcontractor.com  info@thecashflowcontractor.com LinkedIn Facebook Instagram

Mindy Jensen from BiggerPockets joins us to share personal finance and self-management tips, strategy considerations, side hustle ideas, and what it is like to be a female investor in a historically male-dominated industry.    --- Transcript Michael: Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum and today I'm joined by my co host,   Tom: Tom Schneider.   Michael: Mindy Jensen from BiggerPockets is joining us today. And she's going to be talking to us today about some personal finance tips for those of us who are just getting started, as well as what is it like to be a female investor in this space, and some tips and tricks and takeaways for all of our listeners. So let's jump into it.   So Mindy Jensen, thank you so much for taking the time to hang out with us today. I was telling you before we start recording, I am a total fanboy. I'm all giggly today. So thank you, again, for hanging out with us.   Mindy: Well, thank you for having me. I love talking about real estate.   Michael: Awesome. Well, you are in the perfect place to do so. So I know all about you, because I'm a big fan of your podcast, the BiggerPockets Money Podcast that you and Scott host. But for all of our listeners that might not be familiar with you can you give us a little bit of background on kind of who you are, where you're from, and then how you got your start with real estate?   Mindy I was born in a small town in Southern Illinois. And then I moved and moved and moved and moved and moved and moved and moved and moved. And I'm in my 28th or 29th house now, which is actually really relevant to the story. It sounds like a boring, I was born in a small town. And I have never lived in a house for more than six years in my whole life. And I just sold that house that I lived in for six years in January. So it's been like, we move all the time.   And that is really key to my preferred method of investing in real estate, which is called the live & flip, you buy a very unattractive house, you move into it as your primary residence, you fix it up while you're living there. If you live there for at least two years as your primary residence, it is tax free growth, when you sell it, you pay no taxes up to $250,000. If you're single, and up to $500,000, if you're married, I now have a new goal to actually pay capital gains taxes on my flip, I want to get to the point where I have to pay because I've made so much money, which is a very real possibility given our current market, the fact that I got this for a steel and a half, and we're doing a lot of work to it.   But in general, I live in flip. I love real estate. I love talking about real estate. And yeah, I'm a mom of two girls and I live in Colorado.   Tom: Awesome. I love the live in flip strategy. I think I would like you know, with these types of strategies, you know, you have to be very much on the same page as your partner so and I don't think it would fly as much but I'm curious in you know doing this strategy like how big of a renovation Have you done with a live in flip flip Have you done like, you know, like basically camping in in in studs, the ground? Or do you like have some sort of limitation on how big of a project it is?   Mindy: I have limitations now sold this is it's actually a really, really great example of like how big you can go, I have popped the top twice on houses. That means adding a second story, I will never do that again. Because I'm too old for that garbage. It is a lot of work. And when we were popping the top on our most recent house, my youngest was three years old, my oldest was six years old. We at one point had the washer and dryer in the kitchen with holes dug into the kitchen tile floor, which was gross anyway, we're gonna change it anyway.   We we drilled holes in the floor so we could put the out pipes and the water supply pipes into the crawlspace. And the rest of the house was walled off, or it was plastic tarped off because we were building the the addition and the second story.   So in the cold of Colorado, that's really not fun. And we were sleeping in a bedroom with our two children. And my father in law was sleeping in the other bedroom because he's an electrician, and he was helping us rewire the house. We took it from 60 amp service to 200 amp service and basically just rewired the whole thing. When you take it to the studs you can do that. So it was a big undertaking. We there's not a wall in that house that we didn't touch. But why would somebody choose to do this?   Well, I bought it for $176,000 I sold it for $598,000 and I put about $100,000 into it so you do it for the money.   Michael: Wow.   Tom: That's incredible. And the two years so the the tax.   Mindy: This match tax. I guess one more? Yeah, zero. It's incredible. My other specific to the live in strategy, or do you think back on some of the houses on the ones that got away like Oh man, I wish I was still in that? Or is the upside of kind of going through the process and getting those rewards does that, you know, just kind of smooth it over. You're like okay, I'm excited to be on the next one, you know, or do you ever like kind of fall in love I guess and you know, what's the name of the show? Love it or list it you know?   Mindy: Oh Always list it, always list it. And this is actually so I am a real estate agent. And I don't understand the concept of falling in love with the house. There's what is there like 40 million houses in America or something that houses in America, there isn't just one perfect house for you.   Michael: Yeah, totally legit.   Mindy: There's not just one perfect house, there's always going to be another house, that's going to be great for you. So I have never fallen in love with a house. We did have one house that we brought our two children home from the hospital and after they were born, that's really sweet. But the taxes on that house when I sold it for $17,000 a year. Oh, Wisconsin, super high tax bracket. So that I don't miss that at all. I mean, my, my current mortgage payment was my monthly tax only payment on that house. That's ridiculous.   Michael: That's crazy. I think that the saying goes the deal of a lifetime only comes around about once a week. So there I couldn't agree with you more Mindy.   Mindy: You know what the house that I just told I pointed to where it is, it's it's on the other side of town, that house that I just sold was the deal of a lifetime, but the one I'm sitting in now is going to be even more the deal of the lifetime. So yeah, you can find a good deal anywhere.   Michael: So I really want to dig in to two specific topics with you today, because I know that you're an expert in both. One, I would love to get some personal finance tips from you, for folks that are just starting their real estate investing journey I live in flip could absolutely be one of them. And then I also want to talk to you about what it's like being a female investor in the space. And I know that you've got experience again in both those areas. So if I am just starting out, and…   Mindy: I do I have like a lifelong experience, lifelong experience as a woman. So just starting out in real estate, buy low and sell high is kind of the the Pat answer. But really, if you are looking to get started investing in real estate, you need to be educated, you need to know what it is that you're going to do with your investment.   And it seems so easy to be a landlord. But there's a lot of things that you need to know if you want to be a landlord. And if you don't know those things, you are going to mess up and you are going to lose money. And you are going to, in some cases hate your life. I know when you don't know that you should screen a tenant. And you don't know that a 400 credit score is not indicative of a person who is going to be paying you on time every month, you might rent out to somebody who has a 400 credit score, you didn't know because you didn't even run it and you let them move into your house. And they trashed it because they are bad tenants. And you didn't know that because you didn't call it their past landlords and you know, their kids wreck the house and you didn't know they had kids because you didn't screen them.   There's, there's a lot of things and not that you shouldn't rent to people who don't have kids. I'm not advocating against fair housing laws, you need to know who's living in the house. And when you rent it to Michael and Michael doesn't have doesn't say, hey, I've got 17 kids, you know, you come into occupancy, you had a bit against occupancy issues. And you know, or Michael brings his brother Tom, and Tom brings his friend Joe, and then there's 76 people living in your house and you're like, wait, why is it trashed?   I'm not surprised at all. So, if you want to invest in any type of asset class, you need to do your research and if you cannot explain how you are going to invest and and how somebody should be investing in that particular asset class, you should not be investing in that asset class. I'm not in but Bitcoin. I'm not in crypto because I don't understand it. And this is not an invitation to send me an email to explain it to me. I don't want to know.   Tom: Michael's a big, big ferret guy, I wouldn't rent to him because, like,   Michael: Tom!   Tom: It's cute, he's taught them to do these tricks that he showed us, but big…   Michael: Tom, time out. It's chinchillas.   Tom: I think we segued…  Michael, I think we're okay. Chinchillas apologies.   Mindy: I'm gonna jump in here and say, OMG , I would never read to somebody who had ferrets because ferrets stink.   Tom: Michael apparently likes it. Sorry chinchillas.   But okay, getting back on the rails. Mindy, you know what I love my like takeaway from what you're talking about is just having your eyes wide open of like going into risk. I think like with any type of investment that you're doing it be it crypto real estate. Successful investors, they are cognizant and intentional about the risks that they're taking, be it who you're renting to be it the property condition and like what your capacity is, so just love that as like a takeaway on this episode of of intention with risk and eyes wide open in education and filling that gap.   Mindy: Well, that was a better way to say it.   Michael: No I prefer the 76 circus family.   Mindy, a question for you kind of in that same vein. And so we have the education side of things at the Rootstock Academy and I love that you brought up education totally unprompted. I just want everybody to know that we didn't prompt Mindy with that. But how do you draw the line between getting educated, and knowing when enough is enough to then jump in or dip your toes because I know that's something that I struggled with, I spent about two years self educating before ever doing a real estate deal. And even I'm still learning and I was 10 years ago, I'm still learning every single day. So how do you feel like you're you have enough to be dangerous to then go do something with without getting analysis paralysis?   Mindy: Well, started young is really great. Because when you start young, you feel like you know everything, and you don't feel like you need to do all the research. And that's how I got started. I just knew everything when I was 26 years old.   I do like that you said, you know, analysis paralysis. And at one point, do you do you stop educating? You need to be able to understand what you're doing? Hey, how do you invest in real estate? How do you rent out your house? Oh, you know, you just put it on Craigslist.   That's not enough information. You need to learn how you rent out a house. How do you screen a tenant? How do you buy a house? How do you collect rent, like there's a lot of things that you need to think about? Before you just buy a house and throw some people in it. You're providing housing for somebody, you're giving somebody a place to live, you need to know that it's a safe place to live. It's a habitable place to live. And you need to know that they're going to pay you rent.   I mean, once you can start explaining it to other people, I think you've done enough research. You'll always continue to learn, you will always continue to refine and hone in Hey, it turns out I don't want to rent to Mike that has 17 chinchillas. I want to read to Tom who has four little dogs because I know that big dogs cause disasters or I'm not going to rent to Tom anymore because his cats poo. That was not a pleasant experience.   And you know, you will always,  you will always continue to learn. Yeah, that's sometimes cat spray. But being involved in a community that continues to help each other out, is really the best way to go about it. I mean, BiggerPockets is a community of real estate investors helping other real estate investors learn how to do it explaining from experience that, you know, renting out to the chinchilla farm isn't the best choice. Or, you know, renting out to 17 guys who just turned 18 years old in your four bedroom house is probably not going to have the best results.   Yeah, and you're not discriminating, you're just being smart about your your applicants. But even how you find applicants is going to be something that you learn through asking other people.   Tom: Like synthesizing along with the education piece is like community is like such a huge piece about, you know, a really important aspect and feeling comfortable to make that jump, I think and Michael was was talking about just because investing in real estate can be difficult, right? You're right, you know, pop in the top and in Colorado in the winter, you know, having that community of people to one from the education standpoint, but to just as the either, you know, feedback loop or helping, you know, continuing to move forward. Kind of the combination of the two are is really important. And yeah, love BiggerPockets. This is a fantastic spot of that community aspect.   Mindy: Yeah, it's my favorite website on the whole planet.   Michael: I love that. You mentioned the community aspect of things. Because I think so many investors, especially those who are just starting out think that going from due diligence to then you're the first acquisition is that's it, I bought the property now I'm done. It's like, Well, no, now the work actually starts now you own the property. Now you really need that support for the ongoing stuff, not just from the due diligence acquisition.   Mindy: Yes, and this support is really important because sometimes there's not really much you can do. But having somebody to commiserate with is really helpful. But as you're in there talking to other investors, you pick up little tips. One of the best tips I ever picked up for screening tenants is to after they have seen your home, you walk them to their car, you just walk them out and you know, chat, whatever. But while you're at their car, you give it a little peek. Oh, look at that. I can't even see anything in there because there's garbage and wrappers up to the tops of the windows.   You don't want to rent to that person because they how they keep your their cars, how they're going to keep your house and you don't want to go into a completely trashed house. unless that's your thing.   Michael: And teach the road, no judgment, no judgment. I've heard of another similar tip of doing a FaceTime interview with prospective tenants and having them give you a tour around their current living situation.   Mindy: That's another really great tip, because then they're not really expecting to do a tour so you can see how they truly live. And this isn't to discriminate against people who might be slightly untidy, this is to prevent people who will not treat your property with respect from moving it.   Tom: Canary in the coal mine. One thing I love about these episodes is they're there, they can be very self serving. So I have a very self serving question for you. And this is, I guess, for broader people, or as well, if let's say I'm saving up for downpayment on the next acquisition to buy an investment property. What are your thoughts around like, where to hold that money? You know, or I'm going through a cash out refi and going to have a big chunk of change coming in them and to be using for these acquisitions? What do you think about holding it in a cash cash position versus putting it into an ETF or a CD? Or I'd love to hear your your thoughts on that. I mean, a lot, a lot, a lot there.   Mindy: A lot there. But it comes down to what is your risk tolerance, if you have just happen to have a big chunk of change from a cash out refi and you're looking for a property? How comfortable are you with that dollar amount dropping in value. So if you can't, if you need the $20,000 for your down payment, and you don't have a way to replenish that $20,000 easily, I wouldn't put it into an ETF, I wouldn't put it into the stock market at all, I would put it into a high yield savings account, which is only in air quotes, because they're currently at like point 5% or something.   You could maybe put it into bonds, I wouldn't bother with that. If it was not going to be a super long term play like two or three years. If you're going to get it in like three or four months, I would just put it in the cash account, your job is not to grow that, you aren't going to grow that in any significant way. You're not going to put it I mean, you could put it in Bitcoin and watch it go up super a lot. But did you see what happened with Bitcoin? This week? Wasn't it like? Didn't it drop like $30,000? or something? I don't I don't invest in bitcoins.   Tom: Crushed. Yeah, so I just put a very little amount and I've and I've lost, I've lost half of a very little amount.   Mindy: So how would you feel about your $20,000 that you put in Bitcoin because it's a sure thing, and then all of a sudden, now it's $10,000. And you're like, Oh, my money's gone. I don't like to lose $1. So I don't like to be really in really volatile things. I'm mostly in index funds, I have a few tech stocks, and you know, real estate, but I wouldn't put it into anything that that is volatile when you're looking to use it within the next two or three years. And even then, with two or three years, I'd be in like bonds, which are fairly safe, they're not even really growing that much. Your job is to protect the money.   Michael: That makes total sense. I guess that's a really great point in talking about like, your job is to protect that money and to go make that investment in the real estate. And don't worry about everything else. That's just noise if you're trying to grow it and grow it, but focus on the task at hand Don't get distracted. So no more Dogecoin betting Tom, enough is enough.   Tom: I know. And also just a point I want to clarify. Michael is not a ferret guy. I was being silly. Yeah, yeah. The guy didn't realize he clarify.   Michael: Yeah.   So Mindy, you've got some really great insight into a lot of folks his financial purview, I'll call it and so in terms of side hustles, when people are just starting out or looking to grow some additional cash positions to invest in real estate, what have you seen be really effective in terms of side hustles?   Mindy: There is this thing called a signing agent. And it is more towards the west coast of the country than the East Coast. It's four not attorney closing states but title company closing states and notary closing states, you are essentially walking somebody through the closing process and watching them as they sign their name on all the mortgage documents and all the closing papers.   And this is an amazing side hustle because you get to if you have attention to detail, and if you don't, don't even bother, but you get to read mortgage documents over and over and over and over. Again, you're reading the contracts, you're seeing all these things, it's a great way to learn about the process in general. And you make 150 $200 a closing, a closing takes what an hour, you can do those all throughout the day, if you have time during the day, when people are working is not when they need you, it's when people are off work. So nights and weekends.   If you're willing to work nights and weekends, you could make a good chunk of change. I've seen people making, you know, $2,000 a month, just on this little side hustle, and they're not even really spending that much time on it. The cost. The barrier to entry on this is a box of black ballpoint pens, a box of blue ballpoint pens, and a really good printer. And I think it has to be a laser jet, not an inkjet.   It's like a less than $1,000. And you have to be a notary. So you have to go through your state's notary process. I'm not one. So I don't know. I don't know all the process about it. But we talked to a guy who runs a school that that teaches people how to do this and teaches them how to get the jobs to be signing agents. And if you're really good, if you don't make mistakes, people will continue to request you because you're really good.   Tom: Gosh, I love that tip. I feel like I've seen so many like clickbait articles of like passive income. And this is like the one of the best ones I've ever, I've ever heard. I looked into the notary getting that I have a competition with a friend on who can get the most certifications. And this is one and it's not that I think it's like in the state of California where I live, it's like an afternoon of work. Or it's like a certain number of hours. And there might be a test and there's like a low oil, loyalty oath or something like that. So Mindy that's fantastic example of a great side hustle.   Mindy: I got another one. Let's hear it. Yeah. Okay, another attention to detail. I am a real estate agent, I also have a full time job. So I do not have time to double check and triple check all the things in my contract. After we're, you know, I write up the contract for my clients, we get under contract. There's a lot of dates and deadlines, a lot of dates and deadlines. I would just be crushed if I ever allowed my client to miss a date or deadline. And yes, the buyer should be aware of all the dates and deadlines, they should have that upfront. So they're not missing it either.   But I pay somebody who is called a transaction coordinator, I pay her to help me. Remember all the deadlines helped me keep all the deadlines helped me. She files my paperwork with my company so that I get paid, she submits it to the title company. So I get the check at closing. It's called the transaction coordinator, I pay her $400 per transaction. I did 15 transactions last year. And I'm not a busy agent. So you get in with a busy agent who's doing 40-50 transactions a year, you can make some big money.   And it's like an hour of work. It's probably not an hour of work. Maybe she spends, I don't know, five or six hours on my entire transaction from start to finish. She's got it down. I sent her the information. I introduce her to the clients, and then she just sends us an email. Hey, just reminder. I mean, I'm helping people buy $500,000 houses. I'm not going to let you miss a deadline. I would much rather pay $400 to somebody who double checks that I'm not missing deadlines.   Michael: That's such a good tip.   Tom: How would you market yourself as a transaction coordinator in like getting that type of business? I'd love it. Yeah. Just reaching out to agents?   Mindy: Yeah, I would absolutely reach out to agents go to every agency in the city and just say, Hey, I'm an agent, or I'm a transaction coordinator. I'll do your first transaction for free. This is how much I charge. This is how great I am I you know, I set it all up. I do all these things, whatever. It's not that hard. I want somebody as a backup because I am really good. But if I missed the deadline, I would just feel terrible forever. So I want somebody to help me do all the things. Yeah, if you want to go to like literally every agent, if you have one agent client, you will get a lot more because I'm going to tell everybody that I know how great Lacey is. Lacey is great.   Tom: Shout out Lacey.   Michael: That's fantastic. I love that. I love that tip. Because again, that's one of the things that's like in the real estate ecosystem. So you're getting exposed to the to the market to the industry, and you're making money. I think that's awesome.   Mindy: You're learning contracts, you're learning lenders, you're talking to home inspectors and title companies and you're really touching every part of a transaction. She's involved in every part of the transaction, and she sees all the things. So she actually did used to be an agent and said that she prefers transaction coordination.   Michael: So in flipping the narrative a little bit, so that those are some great side hustles that folks can do to help generate some additional cash for their savings for down payments or for investing. What are some of the pitfalls or traps that you've seen new investors fall into?   Mindy: Not being well capitalized, when you buy a house, something will break, I guarantee you, there are very few guarantees in life, it is a guarantee that when you buy a house, something will break, the cost of that repair is inversely proportionate to how much money you have in your reserve fund. If you are very well funded, you get like a broken light switch cover or something. But if you don't have a lot of money, all of a sudden your AC goes out, and it's 105 degrees outside, or it's 30 Below and the furnace breaks.   Something will break. And if you don't have money to pay for it, you shouldn't be buying a house.   Tom: Do you have a rule of thumb on reserves?   Mindy: I really like $10,000, To start off with, like per property rather than?   Michael: 1 million dollars.   Mindy: 1 million dollars. Yes per property. And that is, it's you know, it's a rule of thumb where rules of thumb are like give or take, I have a good paying job, and very low expenses, so I can cash flow, anything that comes my way, I don't have any reserve fund. But I also am able, you know, I have a great line of credit, I can just, if I need a roof, and for some reason my insurance company isn't going to pay for it, I can go and find the $15,000 to put a roof on my house, if you don't have any money in your reserves, you're going to really be hurting and you have to have a roof and you can't not have a roof.   $10,000 is a good place to start. And then I would continue to add to it at a rate of approximately 1% of the purchase price of the house per year. Once you get to like $20,000 I'm trying to think what would cost more than $20,000 to repair on a house right now. And you know, prices have gone through the roof with COVID. And all of the crazy supply issues that that we're having right now. So maybe $20,000 is going to be a better bet. But you know, if you're replacing stuff, it's probably not going to all break at once. And it's probably not going to cost you more than $20,000.   And yes, that is per property until you get to a certain point, like if you have four properties that are in relatively good condition. Oh, condition is another thing. Like if you have a brand new build, you probably don't need $10,000 in your reserve fund. But if you have, you know, a 1950s build, you should probably go $20,000 in your reserve fund unless it was just all you know, remodeled and everything's brand new.   Tom: Yeah, one thing I love about that response in it as well as is there's you know, it's it's dynamic, right? If it's a newer house, or if you have a big line of credit, like it's not real estate and all this it's not one size fits all, there's, you know, strategic considerations on where you're at and, and the property, all of that good stuff.   Mindy: Yeah. And it comes down to like, what kind of financial position Are you personally in? If you're well funded personally, you'll be probably okay. But you know, with COVID when they did them, eviction moratoriums that people stop paying rent, there were owners of four plexes and eight plexes that had 90% of their tenants not paying rent, I guess that doesn't work in a four Plex that would be 75% of their tenants not paying rent, how are you going to pay the mortgage on your house if your tenants aren't paying your rent? And if you don't have six months of all the payments in an account, you need to be getting six months of all the payments? I mean, how long has the eviction moratorium been going on? Like 10 months or something? And it's supposed to schedule through like, is it September? That's the student loan one. Maybe it's the end of June or July? I don't know…   Michael: I think it is September?   Mindy: Yeah, it's fluid with all the different states. But it's, that's a significant amount of time that your tenants may not be paying rent.   Michael: Yeah, that's a great point.   Tom: You touched on an item that I think is super relevant to current conditions, talking about price of materials talking about, you know, just kind of a dynamic market. I'd love to hear has your strategy evolved at all like with the cost of materials going crazy and with like appreciation going nuts on these houses? Or you know, is it as had been pretty consistent through the different market changes that we're seeing?   Mindy: COVID changed my strategy in that we were going to turn our former primary residence into an Airbnb. And when that got shut down, we decided we would rent it out long term. And after we saw all the appreciation going on, we said you know what, I don't really have time right now to go and run an Airbnb. I'm really, really a control freak. So I'm not going to pass that off to somebody else. Let's just sell it be done with the house and move on.   We were incredibly fortunate. We bought all the supplies for many of the projects around the house right before COVID hit. So all the wooden studs for the basement we bought at 2019 prices, not 2021 prices, which is four times as expensive. We've did a whole a big deck edition. And we bought those. They arrived on March, I think March 9, all that stuff arrived. So we like right before they shut down the entire country. We bought all these all of our supplies.   We're building a shed, and my neighbor is doing a renovation, and it's throwing away studs from the 60s. Why would you do that? So I'm going through the dumpster and I'm grabbing those studs, and I'm putting them in my garage. And now I have a new goal. I'm going to scavenge all of the supplies for my shed. And my neighbor's fence got knocked over with the snowplow. So they're building him a new fence. And we're the weirdos that are always working on our house. So he asked us if we wanted his his old fencing materials and his old cedar two by fours and his old cedar four by fours like, Yeah, I do. Because even if I can't use them in the house, I can, you know, he's like, I just don't want them to get thrown away, like I can put them to use.   Tom: What a win win that's brilliant.   Mindy: But I'm not planning any more big projects right now because it's so expensive. And I mean, you can't even go into the store and find two by fours sometimes and plywood. And it's we're doing a lot of painting now, instead of building. And I'm not sure when we're going to change back to building.   Michael: Smart.   Tom: Writing the plan in pencil. That's awesome. I love that that response is cool, because there's like multiple zigs and zags just based on what's what's going on.   Mindy: But if you're not dumpster diving, you need to start it's like construction dumpster diving, don't go to the back of like Whole Foods or something but or maybe. I mean, they throw away a lot of good stuff too. But if you're walking around your neighborhood, and you notice that your neighbor is doing some work peek inside, if you can skip buying 52 by fours because your neighbor just threw a bunch away. That's just that's just smart.   Plus, they're from the 60s so they're straight. I mean, they were sitting outside on the deck and it got wet. And then they still didn't bend and now you get a two by four and it bends before you can get it home. Sorry, I digress.   Michael: You look at it wrong. And it's a warped. Yeah. I was gonna say Tom and I were chatting the other day, and I'm doing a massive redevelopment project. And that budget has just got eviscerated because of the wood prices and other materials. And it's just it sucks. Like, I'm in the middle of it. And there's no way around it.   Mindy: Yeah, I have seen new builds where the buyer put the deposit down and sign the contract. And okay, we're going to start building in March, April. And the builder comes back and says, Okay, now it's going to cost $30,000 more, because wood went up so much. And if you don't want to pay that we understand, we'll refund your money. I've got a line of people waiting to buy this house at the $30,000 additional price.   So what do you do? Do you say yes? Or do you get your money back? I mean, the next house isn't going to be any cheaper.   Tom: It's all just rising so quickly related on the materials costs. I had some read to replace a deck in my house, and we ended up using this bamboo composite and it actually turned out really great. I was a little concerned but our contractor said he had used it on a couple of projects, so shout out bamboo composite decking.   Mindy: Oh, I haven't heard of that before.   Tom: Yeah, it's I think Momo MooMoo booboo, I forgot the name of the exact the name of it. Mozu it might be. But anyways, waterproofs, warranty, all that good stuff. This episode is not brought to you by but we're going to market it anyway.   Michael: Let's shift gears here, Mindy. And I would love to chat with you and get your thoughts, insights, opinions on being a female investor. And what that's like, in what seems to be often a male co opted space.   Mindy: Yeah. So it makes it really easy to that people. It's really easy to decide who I want to work with and who I doubt and it's based on how they treat me. I am not necessarily the only woman in the room, but I'm frequently one of just a couple. And if you you know when you're dealing with contractors, if you call me honey, I'm not working with you, sweetie, baby. Tell me what you need. Tell me what color you want. I don't have a lot of self esteem issues. So if you don't want to work with me, because I'm a woman, I don't care.   I know a lot of people who will work with me because they have this is 2021 Why is that even an issue? But it can be an issue for, you know, for people who aren't as obnoxious as I am. But I want to invest in real estate. So I'm going to and if you don't, if you don't want to deal with me, that's okay, I'll find somebody else who will.   But what is it? Like? It's gotten a lot better. I think that there is a lot more understanding that women are investors. I mean, we're just investing we're not I don't have to lift up the house, I don't have to, you know, use my muscles to do things. So it's like, there shouldn't be any difference. But there are, and I got big muscles. So yeah, it used to be a lot different. But now it's changing.   Tom: I guess, one kind of follow up. Final question related to that. Do you have any advice or recommendation for female listeners who want to become active involved in their area?   Mindy: I am going to go back to the advice that I gave in the beginning and educate yourself. When you come in knowing what you're talking about. People will listen. And the you know, it's okay to ask questions, but ask them in an intelligent manner. And do research in advance to see if you can answer your own question. But there's, you know, there's a lot of nuances in real estate, you can absolutely ask questions based on the nuance.   But hey, how do I get started? Is not the best question to answer to ask, what are the benefits of this strategy versus that strategy is a better way to go? doing a little bit of research, you know, understanding that there are differences and doing a little bit of work on the front end will get you better answers and more people who are willing to talk to you.   But there's a lot of self education, you can do YouTube channels, podcasts, books, blog posts, people are talking about real estate investing right now. And it's like the cool thing to do. And if you want to be a real estate investor, why do you want to be a real estate investor? What do you hope to get out of it? You know, ask yourself all of those questions, and then just jump in.   Tom: Love it. Michael, do you have any other questions? Or is it a good time to jump into some quickfire questions that we have?   Michael: No, Let's jump right in the quickfire? That sounds great. Perfect. All right. All right, Monday, so I'm gonna ask you a series of 10 questions. These are either or questions. Just kind of like a quick, quick response. Are you ready for some quickfire questions?   Mindy: Hit me.   Tom: All right. Consolidation or diversification?   Mindy: Oh, diversification.   Tom: High property taxes, or high income taxes?   Mindy: Oh, I don't like either of those. Um, I would say high income taxes, because there are ways to shield the income taxes. And there are ways to reduce your taxable income, whereas they're your property taxes, just your property tax.   Tom: I was going to let you get away with neither are you going but your answer ended up being much more interesting. Good one. I like that. All right.   High rent growth or low vacancy.   Mindy; Ooh. Oh, right. Yeah. turnovers their profit killers. So yeah, low vacancy, I guess. No, I like these questions.   Tom: I know. That's what that's why they that's what they call it the hot seat. All right. Next one. Cash Flow or appreciation?   Mindy: Cash Flow always because you cannot predict appreciation unless it's forced appreciation. I like forced appreciation more than cash flow. But you didn't say force you just said regular.   Tom: Yeah, I think you could take any flavor of that.   Mindy: Oh, then forced appreciation.   Tom: Excellent. Debt or equity?   Mindy: Equity.  No, well, no debt or equity?.... debt right now because it's so cheap. Yeah.   Tom: Yeah. I love it. Love it. Love it. All right. Next one single family or multifamily?   Mindy: I've always done single family, but I see the appeal of multifamily.   Michael: Alright. Alright, so, right.   Tom: All right. Yeah. local or remote investing?   Mindy: Ooh, I prefer local but I've done both. I just like to be there.   Tom: I think I know the answer to this next question, turnkey or massive project?   Mindy: Massive project.   Tom: All right, final three questions we're going to these are a little bit outside of the real estate box.   The midnight oil or the early bird worm?   Mindy: Oh, early bird worm. I go to bed super early but I get up early to early bird.   Tom: Early bird worm, me too. Alright. text message or email?   Mindy: Oh, email because it's illegal method of notification and text message is not.   Tom: Good. And the final question here, all of your answers are like really thoughtful like good, really great responses we've had like, I've learned I usually it's like I'm not learning things on these hot seat but like this. Alright, mini the final one. Olive oil or butter?   Mindy: Oh, wow, it depends on if you're doing high heat cooking. Butter will burn olive oil is a high heat oil. If I'm putting it on a muffin, it's butter.   Tom: Alright, butter. Butter. It is Yeah. You not only survived the hot seat, you thrived. That was fantastic.   Michael: I'm just picturing an olive oil soaked muffin.   Tom: Dude, olive oil cake. It's a thing. It's a thing.   Mindy: Oh, really? Yeah, I made brownies. Once I made it. I didn't have any oil. So I use olive oil and it did not taste good. I mean, they were brownies. They were still okay, but you could taste the olive oil with Yeah, that's really good to know.   Tom: Thank you so much Mindy for coming on. I love these. I love these episodes, because it's kind of self serving and just learning a ton. Really appreciate your time coming on.   Mindy: Well, thank you for having me. This is super fun. I like that hot seat. Actually. I just didn't like that one question.   Tom: That was the best Hot Seat I think we've we've had like over 100 episodes and…   Mindy: Oh, I was gonna say what is this episode two?   Michael: That's great. No, that that was that was by far the best one. Really? Thank you so much for taking the time for hanging out with us and helping educate. This was great.   Alright, everybody, that was our episode a big big, big thank you to Mindy. That was a lot of fun bar none best quickfire answers we've heard on the show to date. So for all of our future guests, that's a challenge to you to top Mindy's answers.   Hope you enjoyed the episode today. If you would like please feel free to give us a rating review wherever it is. Listen your podcast. If you're checking this out on YouTube, please feel free to subscribe to the channel so you get all the most up to date episodes as they come out.   Again, thanks for listening and happy investing.   Tom; Happy investing

Joined today by Tom Sterner, founder of the Practicing Mind Institute and best-selling author of The Practicing Mind. Tom is a leading expert in Thought Awareness Training and helping people become more fully engaged in the pursuit of their goals to achieve greater joy, peace, and success. Max Out Insights: • Have a target to aim for. No matter what you call it, this target, goal or resolution expresses the place to which you want to get. It could be anything from reaching an ideal weight, a clothing size, or a particular measure of physical fitness. • Your unconscious mind influences you. In fact, it controls you. It's always listening. What you feed your mind can and will be bringing you either positive or negative thoughts, emotions and beliefs. • Don't look for the accomplishment to happen prematurely, have accurate data on what you're undertaking and understand how long it will take to master that instrument, goal, or ambition. • Mistakes are fine. Mistakes are information, not failures. Anyone who stretches their limits and takes major goals will make mistakes along the way. Look at the mistake with a cool head, open mind and sense of curiosity: “I made a mistake. What happened?” Max Out Quotes: • “Your Interpretation determines and creates your experience.” • “We are not our thoughts; we experience our thoughts.” • “If you're in your thoughts, you're not in control.” • “Repeat the behaviour you want, analyze and relax.” Connect with Tom: You can reach out to him through his Website www.tomsterner.com. You'll also find his 1-1 coaching and email information there.

In this episode Tom and Emil go head to head to debate which investing strategy is superior, local or remote investing.    --- Transcript   Michael: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of their moat real estate investor. I'm Michael album. And today I'm joined by my usual hosts,   Tom: Tom Schneider   Emil: And Emil, The Real Deal, Shour.   Michael: Ooh, I love that self-proclaimed nickname. Love it. And today we're going to be doing another show down. We've got a lot of feedback from our listeners that showed on episodes were well received. So today we are going to be debating the pros and cons of remote investing versus local investing dunked on done. Well, guys, let's jump into it.   Emil: That was actually a nickname that someone I went to college with gave me.   Michael: Okay. So it wasn't self-proclaimed.   Tom: Emil, The Real Deal.   Emil: We were in the same frat and we had like boxing night and…   Michael: that's so good.   Emil: He introduced me as Emil, The Real Deal!   Michael: I would never go on a boxing match with anybody that had that intense of a nickname.   Emil: Those people went down. Went down hard.   Michael: Okay. So for any of our new listeners out there, my name is Michael Albaum and I'm the head coach with the Roofstock Academy, Roofstock's education arm, and Emil, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and who you are?   Emil: Yes. My name is Emil Shour. I work on the marketing team here at Roofstock, which if anyone's not familiar, it's a marketplace where investors come to buy and sell single family rental homes. And so I work on the marketing team. I actually invested through Roofstock's marketplace before I was employed here. And now I have the joy of getting to spread the word.   Michael: So you're drinking the Koolaid.   Emil: That's right.   Tom: An evangelist!   Michael: That's right. And Tom, who are you my friend?   Tom: That is a deep question.   Michael: Start at birth!   Tom: Start at birth. So I am an investor. I'm a California broker. I work here at Roofstock on the investor education team. I initially worked at one of the very first publicly traded REITs, doing single family rental, kind of in the wild West of 2009. And then our CEO went and was a co founder and starting Roofstock. So I jumped over and joined him at Roofstock on the product side and the operations. And now, as I mentioned on the investor education side.   Michael: Awesome. Love it.   Tom: Before we get into the meat of the episode, a quick announcement as usual, this episode was brought to you by Roofstock Academy. Roofstock Academy is Roofstock's education program to get you to the next level. We include over $2,500 worth of marketplace credits on demand lectures, one-on-one coaching group coaching, all kinds of benefits. And we have this new benefit that we put together that Michael is leading it's our book club.   Michael: Within the Roofstock Academy, we actually do a monthly book club. We get together and read the same book over the course of the month that has some takeaway, some motif, some applicable things to real estate investing. And we get together at the end of the month and we have a chat about it. And cause now it's COVID, we're doing that all virtually, but hope to be able to do that in person at some point down the road. And this upcoming months book club book is Michael Uber's, one rental at a time. And as an added bonus for this month book club, we're actually going to have Michael Zuber on that call with us as kind of a fireside chat. And as we're going to be discussing his books, we get to hear it from the source himself about some of the reasons he wrote the book and some of the takeaways from the book as well. So now is the opportune time to join the Roofstock Academy roofstockacademy.com. So you can join us for that monthly book club and take advantage of all of the other advantages the Roofstock Academy has to offer as well.   Emil: For people who aren't familiar with Michael Zuber, he's been on the podcast twice. Good friend of the podcast episode 11 was the first one we had with him, the power of four rental properties and how it can change your life. And most recently, I think we, we dropped an episode with him this past week called how Michael Zuber Quit His Job On a Whim After Achieving Financial Independence. So if you're not familiar with who he is, go back and listen to those episodes. He's a super, super smart guy he's been investing for. I think 20 plus years. Now he knows a lot and has a really, really awesome message for other investors.   Michael: So today for our shutter and episode, we're going to be taking two sides of this argument and splitting it up a meal. Why don't we give you remote? We'll give you a remote and Tom, you're going to have to defend local investing.   Tom: Yeah. A classic episode, a classic discussion for the remote real estate. We're going to, you know, try not to be too biased…   Michael: But it is called The Remote Real Estate Investor,   Tom: But it'll be fun. It'll be fun. I don't know. Yeah. It's fun going to the other side of the table. So..   Michael: I think it's important to address and acknowledge both sides of any topic of any discussion because it's two sides to every coin and there is no one size fits all approach, even though remote real estate investing is far superior, but we're going to get to that in the episode. So a meal, would you like to go first or second   Emil: I'm game for either Michael?   Michael: Okay.   Emil: You're the moderator.   Tom: Go first Emil. That way I'm giving you a heads up. I'm handicapping you alright,   Michael: Emil, the floor is yours.   Emil: All right. So I have three points I want to hit here. That Tom is going to have a very hard time rebutting. So the first one is that with remote investing, you buy where it makes sense. So if you're a local investor, you're looking around at your local market, you're geographically constrained to just the deals around you. So if you live in Los Angeles or the Bay area, like we do, prices have gone out of control. Prices have gone up a lot and rent has not been able to keep up with that. So in certain markets, it's very hard to find cash flowing properties, unless you have a lot of money, put a lot of money down. It's very, very hard to make those work. There's still good markets. It's just harder to make the cash flow work. So when you're a remote investor, you buy where it makes sense.   You look at different markets, you look at where deals are, where the fundamentals are good and you invest there. You're not geographically constrained to only where you live. You go to where the deal is. Makes sense. The second point I want to touch on is you get to build a team instead of doing everything yourself. I know personally, if I was investing locally, I would want to do a lot of things myself, instead of relying on other people, finding the right team. And I think that's an advantage in building a team because these people are professionals. I'm not, I'm not a professional property manager or inspector any of these things, but being the person I am and liking control, I feel like I would try to get my hand into too many of those things. Whereas when you're remote again, you have to rely on the fuel.   You have to build a team. And so I think that's one of the advantages of going remote is you're required to build that team of professionals. The last one I want to touch on before I get on the floor is I think with remote investing, it's a lot less emotional and more about the numbers. I think when you go and view properties all the time in person, it's hard to ignore some of the blemishes that you bring to the property, right? You have some bias. You're like, Oh, would I live here? And with rental properties, especially for cashflow, that's not what matters. It's do the numbers make sense in a market that I like. And is this an area that I'm comfortable with? The risk it's not about is this somewhere I could see myself living. And I think if you're doing the local investing, you bring a lot of that emotion in looking at a lot of the properties you look at.   Michael: Wow. Tom, come back from those man.   Tom: I like it. I'm so confident. I'm going to slow roll a little bit. I'm actually just going to compliment a couple of your points before I stepped back and do the fade away three while kicking my leg out for you to run into it for me to get an extra free throw. So yeah.   Emil: Okay. James harden.   Tom: Okay. So to honor my comment there, I love the point about how it allows you to not kind of get in your own head and just be super data-driven about it, but okay. Onto the good stuff, I'm a good stuff. So investing local is definitely the way that you want to do it. So I think the first point that I'm going to make, which could be the most relevant is you're never going to know a market better than your own market. And me personally, I've been studying the market since I was about eight years old. I'd go to Safeway, I'd get the homes and land magazine. And I would just study comps. And I had this long trend of analysis. I know the different markets, different property types, how they're trending. Heck I even know the agents, right? The Kerses family out here, great agents. So you're going to know a market a lot better just from, you know, kind of hounding your local Zillow or Redfin or whatever. Basically the adult version of the homes and land magazine from the Safeway. All right. The next point is, man, what value is it to be able to touch and feel the house, you know, to go up to the house and touch the walls and kind of like smell it. You can't do that remotely. And one of the reasons people like investing in real estate is because it's a tangible asset. It's, it's something, you know, you're not buying some future of gasoline because the price of crude is low.   You know, it's an actual asset that some people actually use using by doing it remotely. You're kind of getting away from that. You're getting away from that touchy, feely wonderfulness of buying a house that you can actually see and walk into. And you know, you get out of the ethereal, if I steal a word from Michael here, it's a nice to the realleal, so, you know, you're being there. So that's number two is the tangibility of it, of actually being there, getting to go see it. It's pretty awesome. And lastly is you're not going to get taken advantage of, you know, doing things over the phone. You're going to have these quick talking sharks, selling you snake oil and all kinds of trouble. So I like to shake somebody's hand or I guess nowadays is you do an elbow bump of, you know, getting, if I'm going to do business with somebody, I'm going to want to get to know them.   I'm going to want to look them in the eye and touch elbows or whatever we do now with COVID and you can't do that in zoom. It's just super awkward. So there you go. That's why you want to invest locally.   Michael: So, Tom, what would you have to say to some of the meals points that he brought up?   Tom: All right. Let's do it so well, I, I quite agree with a lot of appeals points. I totally agree. I mean, I don't want to waste my, you know, momentum for when we switched sides of the argument, but there is a lot of limitations on only looking into your own area, but you know, just when we say local, that doesn't mean you have to do everything, you know, within five miles of your house, roll it out a little bit further, you know, go 30 miles go a couple hours. So we were talking before the episode where we were talking about our experience with local investing and I have done some stuff working for fun, not with my own money, doing local investing, but Michael has invested locally. I would consider, you know, within that three hour range that kind of counts as local. So to address that point about, you know, not being specific things in your area, you know, rollout the distance, the radius, spread it out a little bit further. You can still do things locally. You know, if you're uncomfortable going 2000 miles away go 200 miles away like within striking distance. So that would be my point number one.   The point number two, about being comfortable about using other folks is, you know, it's a muscle and if you're uncomfortable, you know, going a hundred percent building a team, that's okay. Just kind of pick points and spots and build that muscle of getting trust in getting good at letting go of things. And honestly, that's a big problem. I know for a lot of people, especially investors who are pretty generally pretty type a kind of go getters is to consciously make an effort of letting go of certain aspects of the business. So you can focus on where you have higher ROI.   Michael: I've got a question for you, both that you both kind of touched on Amelia, you mentioned that if you're going to invest remotely, that you can't go see the property and that that's difficult to do. And Tom, you mentioned, you know, being local, you're able to go touch and feel and see the property, but couldn't someone who's investing remotely still go touch and feel, see, and smell and taste. I think you included in there, the property,   Tom: If you're good, you will.   Emil: That's right. Always want to lick the walls before you sign those docs.   Michael: Check the lead based paint disclosure before licking the walls.   Emil: Correct. Actually, I think the right thing to do is to lick it, to make sure that there isn't lead.   Michael: That's right.   Tom: It's your tongue turns blue then…   Emil: Trust the verify.   Tom: No, you're totally right, Michael. I mean I've for some of the house that I've bought, I've seen them, but for most of them might have nod and what the ticket is, is having an inspector because honestly, if I go to the house and my ability to assess, you know, issues is not going to be better than an inspector who like does this professionally. So, you know, having the idea that, Oh, me going out there, I'm going to be able to do a better job than some inspector is a little bit of a stretch. So, you know, having confidence in the credentials and you know, where these inspectors are coming from, and then also looking at their homework. So like when an inspector goes and does an inspection on a house, they're filling out a super thorough report on what was identified. And that is including pictures and descriptions and as well as adding any followup items that are on there. So I'm not really sure where I'm arguing on this. I got, I got going, but you know, to the point, like I think it's, yo u know, going to see the property before buying it, you could totally do that. Even if it is remote, you know, there's no reason why you couldn't do it. And it makes you get comfortable to be able to get in the game. You know, that's an expense that you can use as a writeup. I'm not a tax professional, but for that in there,   Emil: Thank you, Tom, for further arguing my remote point but no, I think you're right. I think you can, like, let's say you put an offer on a property you're in escrow. You can go visit that property, put some eyes on it, make sure everything looks good. Yes. You know, I rely on pictures and video and things like that to like before the offer process. But I actually want to make that part of how I operate going forward. Obviously with COVID, it makes it a lot tougher, but the markets I invest in, I want to be visiting those more regularly. I haven't at all, but I want to be. And I think it makes a lot of sense if that makes you more comfortable go visit the property before you finish escrow.   Tom: Yeah. I think I personally kind of like Seesawed a little bit on like, you know, needing to be in the market where kind of when I was in it, I think it was really important to go and check it out, to go in the other way of seeing like, nah, you don't need to see it at all. I think it's been to find a happy balance. Like if you buy a property and it hits those check boxes that you're looking for with regards to population and schools and other kind of local dynamic economy, like great. I think it's some people need to be comfortable by taking a look at the market. Great. Go be comfortable and do that. Just know that, you know, there isn't necessarily a one size fits all answer.   Emil: Yep. And one last thing you mentioned being local, you know, your market way better than being a remote investor. I think that's true. I think that that'll always be the case you live there, you just, you know, what's happening. One thing I really trying to do though in the markets that I invest in is like get more ingrained in local news outside of just real estate. So I'll set up Google alerts and get the top things happening in that city to just like better understand what's going on. And I think this is where talking to your property manager regularly, again, visiting those markets regularly doing drive-through of different neighborhoods. It's just going to get you better and better at these different markets.   Michael: That's a really great point Emil. I'm going to piggyback off what Tom said. I always talk in the Academy with members about if going to the market is what's stopping you from investing then by all means go, but you'll have to kind of face the reality of everybody has personal biases and you're not going to be able to unsee undue, unexperienced, the things that you see and do and feel, and experience in that market for better or for worse. And so the ideal scenario is you pick a market that has good numbers, has good metrics and you go see the property and you love the property and you love the market, but that's not always the case. Just like you said Emil is that it doesn't necessarily matter how it makes you feel because you might not be living there. If the numbers make sense and the facts are there to support the market, it could still be a great investment independent of the fact of whether or not you enjoy it. And so if you go somewhere and think, wow, I would never live here. I don't want to invest here. Now we're mixing emotion into the decision making process, which can really be dangerous. And so if we can go with the guys of understanding that it doesn't really matter how I feel, if I feel great, that's kind of a cherry on top, but I should still be willing to invest. Even if it doesn't make me feel good. That's something to think about.   Tom: That's a great point. I mean, so much of this is an introspective exercise where it's like, okay, what do I need to do to know that, you know, I feel good about investing in this area. And I think it's a great point, Michael, that it comes to a point where you need to be a little bit just focused on the numbers. But if you know that you're going to need to kind of touch it and take a look just at the market in general, then there's no reason that you can't do that. And I like the happy balance of, you know, if there's a market, you know, going to take a look at the market and not necessarily, if there is a property to look at great, go look at a property, but you don't necessarily have to look at the one that you are investing in, but you have like a general kind of taste of the area. If that's something that's important to you, there's no reason why you can't do that. But to Michael's point, like at the end of the day, the numbers are really what carry the day trust in the process.   Emil: All of us kind of agree that the numbers, aren't the only thing that drive us, right? If it's like awesome cabaret cash on cash, but it's in a really rough neighborhood where we don't see that neighborhood turning around or whatever it is. I don't think any of us would invest there just because the numbers on paper look really good. There's a lot of other factors that we also take into account as well.   Michael: Yup, absolutely. Alright. This was really great. And I want you guys to flip flop, Tom, why is remote investing far superior than local investing in meal? You've got to defend because you got to go first, last time. So now Tom's on the offensive. Fight!   Tom: Emil, welcome to 2020. The world is your oyster. Get out of your little hole, get your head out of the sand, you Flamingo is that the animal does the…   Michael: Ostrich.   Tom: You're, you're being an ostrich. And you know, there's been some advents in technology that has allowed us to invest remotely. One of them is cloud computing that allows for you to have access to incredible amounts of data outside of your backyard. So cloud computing, that's one, the other is, uh, mobile phones. Uh, there's all kinds of cool technology that didn't exist before that Roofstock leverages and other, you know, potentially brokerages. Um, have you guys seen, have you heard of the 3d walkthrough? Right? So inside maps, Matterport, very cool companies that allow you to basically walk through the house as if you are there. Not only are you being more psychogenic, you're just working smarter, not harder. So you're able to check these houses out at a really in depth level without needing to go there. You're saving gas mileage. Think of, you know, you're being green, okay. Cloud computing, tons of data, cheap data on markets and evaluating other markets. Number two, mobile applications, mobile devices. And with that is the ability to have these really cool 3D walkthroughs to have a proliferation of inspections available. I know at Roofstock we use some cool mobile phones in using for our inspection capture leading to my third point, this ecosystem, right, that has developed around companies. So one such as Roofstock that basically does all the work ahead of time. All the benefits you would get from local investing in that, you know, being able to find these local partners, you can do really easily through platforms like Roofstock, which will connect you to all the partners that you need.   Be it insurance, be it in lenders. Now I'm not saying you can't use that same grit that you would be using locally, remotely. You should still apply that and apply it in a very diligent way, but all the drawbacks of doing it remotely that used to exist no longer exist, just because of the way the technology has advanced the way the cool companies like Roofstock has advanced. And the proof is in the pudding. I know just off the top of my head, I think there's been, you know, over over $10 million of transaction within the Roofstock Academy community, over $2 billion worth of transactions on the Roofstock community. So the proof is in the pudding. It's, you know, if you're not doing it right now, Emil, remotely investing you're behind. So, so get on the train.   Michael: Tom, what do you have to say about the interwebs, the online, the www online's making remote real estate investing easier?   Tom: Uh, you mean the connected tubes?   Michael: Yeah,   Tom: It honestly it shrinks the world. It's fantastic. And the big value points I think in there is just access to data. So being a data driven investor, I want to know what are some reputable sources for evaluating the local schools. I want to do a walk around on that block. Oh, wait a minute. I, can I go to Google maps and do a little walk around? That's fantastic. And honestly, again, you get a pretty good taste of, of being able to do it that way and getting the curb appeal and all of that good stuff. So the internet, I mean, it, it honestly would not be possible without it, but just as we've, since we've come so far since AOL and 56K modems or whatever, it's like, you know, on my phone, I could do a diligence on a property that honestly, the top private equity or top real estate investment companies could do it, it would cost them thousands and thousands of dollars to do on an individual property that I could do for free, just on my mobile phone while I am walking in my living room, in a local area. So the cost of doing the kind of diligence at an incredibly thorough level has gotten so cheap and so accessible. That there's just no question that remote investing is here and jump on board toot toot. Get on the train toot toot.   Michael: Alright Emil, you need some ice. Are you feeling okay? Are you ready to start swinging back?   Emil: I'm ready. You know what? I think Tom just convinced me to become a remote real estate investor. You opened my eyes. Michael: You didn't know this other world existed.   Emil: I had no idea about this, what podcast are we on?   Michael: Someone get this guy, a mobile phone.   Tom: Yeah get him a mobile device connected to the internet.   Michael: To the interwebs.   Emil: All right. I'm going to try not to rehash too much of what Tom mentioned. Hold on. Let me get my dog to shut up, one second. Zeke!!   Tom: So Mr. Michael Album, I hear you are doing some remote investing to the extreme. I've been following you on the Twitter world and yeah.   Michael: That's… No one should do that. That's a scary thing to hear.   Tom: Yeah. Doing remote in the United States is one thing, doing remote on the, across the Atlantic?   Emil: Portugal! Michael: Going very far East, stopping once I hit Europe, I'm actually currently investing in some properties in Portugal. There is something called the golden visa that I'm looking to take advantage of. And one of the ways to get a golden visa, which is basically permanent resident status, and then ultimately a passport after a five year period is by investment in the country. And so that can take the form of a few different ways. And so one of the options is investing in property. And so I'm looking to actually flip a property right now and then purchase a property for a long term buy and hold to get me access to that golden visa.   Emil: [sings] You go the golden visa, you got the golden visa. It's made up, it's fairy dust that someone sold Michael   Michael: And so you, Oh, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Speaking of buying snake oil.   Tom: Was this specifically for the golden visa.   Michael: It is, it is. So the returns are not anywhere near as attractive as what you can get in the States. And so the fact that you can buy an investment property and have it generate some kind of return is really a cherry on top. The real premise and the real Genesis is to get a golden visa and ultimately a second passport.   Tom: Wow.   Michael: So just being able to travel work, live, receive healthcare in the EU, any of the EU countries essentially for free. And so having the benefits of an, of an EU citizen and potentially be an EU citizen after five years.   Tom: Wow. So you would be a Portuguese and an American citizen. Yes. Very cool. Yup. Nobody knows any Portuguese out there that wouldn't mind tutoring me a little bit. I would love the help because I am pretty useless.   Tom: Portuguese is a difficult language. I went to Brazil for a little bit and Holy moly. I do not. Yeah. It was a…     Michael: It's so foreign and it's so fast.   Tom: Obrigado!   Michael: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. That's thank you for anybody listening. Nobody got it. Alright. Emil you're ready to punch back?   Emil: Alright. Knowing your market. I think that's a big advantage. If you're local, when things happen, you can go visit. That's another big one. The other three I wanted to mention are I think it's a lot easier to project manager rehabs. A lot of times when you're, you're doing a rehab or any type of any type of rehab from distance, you're trusting a lot of people project managing it. Isn't the easiest. Sometimes property managers will do it for you. It's a service they will provide. Sometimes they don't, but you're relying on pictures to kind of make sure each interval of the rehab process is happening. And a lot of times the little details are harder to see through pictures or anything, right. You want to make sure that it work is done right. And I think when you're local to be able to go and see the work that's being done, it's a huge advantage to make sure the little things weren't skipped or things that show up in picture that look okay, but you actually view it in person.   You know, the paint is splotchy or things like that. You can verify those things in person, much easier to do when you're local. The other one is this kind of ties into knowing your market, but where you live and where you are locally, you, you probably believe in that area. You probably believe in that economy. That's probably why you're there. You have a job, whatever it is when you're local, you probably have a sense that this area is going to do well for years to come. And you're trying to ride that wave of appreciation. Whereas when you're going remote harder to know all those things, you don't live there. You're not living and breathing and in that place and knowing what the local economy's doing. So I think when you're a local, you just have a better sense of is this place on the rise? I think most people live somewhere where you think things are going well. So that's another advantage to local, I would say. The last thing I talked about building a team, when you're remote, you have to build a team. I think when you're local, you build a team too. People will find your deals, property management, all those things. But the advantage of when you're local is you can actually go meet those people face to face, interview them a lot easier than when you're remote and you're just calling people. There's less of that personal connection. And I don't know when you meet people in person, you take them more seriously. They take you a little more seriously, not always, but I think it's actually easier to build a team when you're local. You do it for remote and local. And I think it's just easier to local. And that's it. Tom, go ahead.   Tom: Alright. Last couple of points I'll make on yours. You know, talking about investing in a market that you kind of believe in, you live in something we've learned over the last, I don't know, 30, 30, 40 years of investing is diversification is key. And a lot of people, their biggest investment that they make is going to be the house that they own and live in. And if you're making your biggest investment, obviously in an area that you live in, cause you live in it, why would you, you know, basically just double down on that same area, when you can diversify a little bit and put that money to work in an area that, you know, there might be some correlations with the economy because there generally is, but is subject to other upside and other kind of benefits. So being able to place your chips around. So instead of owning multiple houses in the same area that you live in already, where you have your biggest investment, the benefits of mixing it up and putting it into a different area, there's lots of value to diversifying that play.   Michael: Would you say Tom, that you would peanut butter spread the risk?   Tom: I love peanut butter spread. So my wife has started getting groceries from this place called Thrive Market and they have peanut butter in a spreadable packet. Pretty sweet.   Michael: Different than Justin's?   Tom: I don't know if it's Justin's I don't think it is, but anyways, it's not in a jar. It's like toothpaste packets. It's like toothpaste   Michael: Just on the go packs. Those things are great. Yeah.   Tom: I think I'm kind of violent about it. Cause I like burst a hole, like in the side. So peanut butter spread the risk, right? Just like spreadable peanut butter. You spread it apart. I guess the last kind of general point that isn't necessarily arguing to one way or the other remote or local investing is with all of this. It's not a one size fits all. I think all of us agree that, you know, while there is a little bit of unique requirements for investing remotely, ultimately the different types of returns it gives you access to and the diversification it gives you access to is it's worth that little bit of overhead. And as we mentioned before, then this episode, there's, there's different ways that people can get comfortable in different areas. For some people, they just get it right away and they can jump right in and invest.   And that's awesome. That's great. For some people they want to be a little bit more hands on and go and visit the area, perhaps even talk to property managers and that's okay too. Just kind of know where you sit and know what you need to do to get there either to move forward with an investment or to move on to some other type of investment. So I'd say as a theme in this podcast and real estate investing in general, have a bias for action of getting yourself into a position to either make the investments or to move on. Let's see the last little recurring theme that I think probably talk about every other episode is, as a remote investor, there really is no one as important as your property manager. So even if you're doing it locally too, and using professional property manager, your investment is gonna live and die by how well someone's going to be able to manage that for you and get, at least if you're not self managing and using professional property manager. So, you know, it doesn't matter if you're doing remotely or locally, but you know, especially if you're doing remotely, since you're not going to be able to visit the property that often do not sleep on the work that it takes to assess and qualify a property manager because you know, buying right can take you so far, but ultimately, you know, winning the operational metrics and keeping your overhead low is going to be on getting a good property manager. Who's going to keep that property occupied. So those are my final tidbits on it.   Emil: Well done. I know I don't get a rebuttal, but I thought those were all very strong.   Michael: I thought you both had strong points nicely done to you both. I'll share a little bit.   Tom: I'm excited for the Michael tidbits.   Michael: I was just going to share that I've done some, you alluded to it previously, Tom, but some quote unquote local investing. It was really, my first investment was down in Southern California, which we talked about on a previous episode, but I couldn't fathom investing remotely or out of state or really at much of a distance just because I was so green. So new to this space, you know, Roofstock wasn't around this whole education piece for a, Roofstock Academy wasn't around. And so that's all I knew. And so it was about three hour drive away from my grub. So it was semi local and I went and touched and toured a bunch of properties and met with my local agent who is a family friend who is also my property manager. So to Neil's point, we could touch a shake, hands, have visual rapport, physical rapport, which I'm kind of old school in that regard.   I would always prefer that. I think it's much more meaningful than the remote over zoom or over the telephone. And so I was able to be very hands on with that investment. And it's gone really well, given a long enough time horizon for anyone who listened to that first episode where it just like that property has been through several road bumps, several hiccups and speed. So the fact that it was local did not have any bearing on how difficult it was as a first property. It did not have any bearing on how bad or how sideways things could go. And that's been by far probably the worst experience I've had with any of my other investments. And so you can have good people and bad neighborhoods and bad people in good neighborhoods in local markets and at distance markets. So it's, you know, again, I think we said it before, it's not a one size fits all.   You just, every investor has to figure out what makes the most sense for them and Tom, you were just touching on it. I think if you need to baby, step your way into investing and start local or semi local, do it. If that's what it's going to take for you to start getting into the real estate investing arena, you know, start where it makes sense for you. Some people have no problem letting go of control and just doing it at a distance and setting up a team and kind of taking a back seat so to speak. But if that's not, you figure out how you operate as a person and figure out what's going to make the most sense for you. And then just go do it.   Emil: So for anyone who was curious about Michael's first deal, we covered that in episode 12, Here's What Our First Deal Looked Like and How They're Doing Today. That was the name of that episode. But I think, you know, the, the main theme, I'm glad you touched on that is there's people who are successful doing both right. There's people who are just local investors in expensive markets who are doing really well. People who just do remote investing, who are doing really, really well. And there's some people who do both, right. They do some local, some distance. And I think that's like the main thing we want to highlight. I don't think one is necessarily better than the other. It kind of just depends on your situation. And I think there's people doing well and doing both,   Michael: I think I want to just double down on that statement Emil. It is so dependent on who you are as a person and where you live. Because if someone's living in the Midwest right now, listening to this, so like I'm surrounded by deals. Why would I ever go remote when there's tons in my backyard, us being all Californians were, you know, semi-forced to go remote and you know, forced to go invest at a distance. So if that's not, you don't think that, Oh, I have to go invest remotely because of everything they talked about in the podcast, maybe, you know, our remote is your local, Oh, that's a trademark, Michael Albaum,  July 28, 2020.   Emil: Our remote is your local.   Michael: Yeah. So just go find where the deals make sense. I think is the one of the biggest takeaways because they could be read under your nose and you might not even know it because you're so focused on remote. I absolutely looked at local as a first opportunity semi found it and then how to go remote after the fact.   Michael: All right guys, I think that was a great rap battle for remote versus local investing. And before I let you guys go, I've got the question of the episode for you. Are you ready?   Tom: Let's do it.   Emil: Always. I'm rabbit, baby. I'm winning this rat battle.   Michael: What's your favorite breakfast cereal and why?   Tom: I'm ready.   Michael: Tom go. It's called Magic Spoon. It's not made with normal sugar. It's made from the sugar of raisins. So it's actually being promoted on a lot of podcasts. We're not being paid to promote magic spoon here. We have no affiliation with any royalties, but we're not opposed to it. And so magic spoon is basically children's cereal for adults. It is delicious. It doesn't have carbs. It's full of protein. What's great about not being, you know, I could just kind of say, say the good things about it and not necessarily have a check, a reference check on it, but it's, it's really good. Magic spoon, peanut butter. It's great raisin sugar.   Michael: So if it doesn't have carbs, like what is it like, what is it made of?   Emil: Fairy dust.   Tom: Magic spoon.   Emil: I've heard of that. It's expensive. It's not cheap.   Tom: I can't believe how expensive it is. Don't get me going on that.   Michael: There was this like frozen yogurt place that came out. I don't know. Maybe this is like going back 15, 20 years and kind of dating myself. But it's got like golden spoon, in Southern California, but I like the name gives you no indication of what the thing is. Like you would never think that's an ice cream place because it's called the golden spoon. Am I the only one that thinks that, sorry, golden spoon… If…   Tom: Spoons got range. Alright Emil, how about you, favorite cereal?   Emil: Does granola. It's like a granola cereal kind of thing. It's called Autumn's gold. I found it recently a Costco and it's like all nuts and cinnamon. So kind of same deal. It's paleo. No carb. I try to eat paleo during the week, at least. So that's probably like the only cereal these days I eat. But if we're, if we're aligning the clock, favorite cereal growing up, it's gotta be them Lucky charms, man.   Michael: They're always after me Lucky charms.   Tom: Are you a guy who eats non marshmallows until the very end? And then you just go all marshmallow.   Emil: Is there any other way to eat Lucky Charms?   Michael: I don't trust anybody that eats Lucky Charms any other way?   Emil: Yeah.   Tom: Yeah. And remember that like promotion. They are like, oops, we made a mistake and just marshmallows, man, that person on the factory line. What a moron!   Emil: Or a genius dude. He sold so many Lucky Charms boxes and he was promoted to like vice president.   Tom: VP of product.   Michael: That was like Playdo. Wasn't that? A mistake invented by mistake. So many of the greatest things.   Pierre: Sticky notes.   Tom: Sticky notes.   Michael: Yeah. There you go. Alright, Pierre, what's your favorite breakfast cereal? And please don't say like the last pizza episode. I don't like breakfast cereal.   Pierre: Well, okay. I don't eat breakfast cereal for breakfast. It's more of a dessert. If I'm going to eat cereal, it's going to be before bed.   Michael: I don't always eat breakfast cereal, but when I do it before bed.   Emil: I'm with Pierre man.   Tom: I like that tip. I like that take, unless it's magic spoon. Go ahead.   Pierre: Hmm. Chocolate granola, chocolate hazelnut granola.   Michael: Nice, particular brand?   Pierre: Oh man. It doesn't matter, really. I was raised on coupons, so whatever's on sale.   Tom: Michael, you got one?   Michael: You guys are all healthy. I'm like cocoa puffs fan. I like my milk, but I prefer it to be chocolate. So that's really all it is. It's just a vehicle to get more chocolate milk. I don't really care how it tastes.   Emil: That is true. Just gives you chocolate milk at the end.   Michael: That's right.   Tom: I had a roommate, shout out to Carson Mobly. His, uh, he had this quote about food is just a vehicle for sauce.   Michael: I've always felt that way about carrots and celery. It's just like, how do I get bar ranch into my mouth in a faster, more efficient way.     Tom: It's just a vehicle for sauce.   MIchael: That's great. All right, everybody. That was our episode. Thank you so much for listening. If you liked the episode, feel free to give us a rating or review wherever it is you listen to podcasts. Also feel free to subscribe so that you get the most up to date episodes automatically downloaded to your listening device. We look forward to seeing you on the next one. Happy investing!   Tom: Happy investing.   Emil: Very formal, happy investing.  

In this episode, Tom and Michael chat with Matthew Whitaker from GK Houses about what it takes to have effective property management and how investors can set themselves up for successful relationships with their PMs.   --- Transcript   Michael: Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. I'm Michael Albaum. And today I'm joined by Tom Schneider and Matthew Whitaker with GK Houses, Matt and GK Houses is one of our preferred property management partners at Roofstock. And so we're going to be talking to Matt today about what it's like to be a property manager. What are some things that we as investors can do to make their lives easier? And give us a little bit of insight into what a day in the life of a PM looks like. So let's get into it.   Theme Song   Michael: Matt Whitaker. Thank you so much for joining us today. Really, really appreciate you taking the time to be with us. How are you doing?   Matthew: Yeah, I'm doing great. I'm excited to be here and excited to do this with you.   Michael: Awesome. And you're down in the Southeast, right?   Matthew: I am. Yeah. I'm in Birmingham, Alabama. That's where our corporate office is and we're in eight different markets. So we're in three markets in Colorado and then we are also in Birmingham, Nashville, Atlanta, Chattanooga, and Little Rock.   Michael: Awesome. Awesome. And for those of our guests who might not know you, can you give us a little bit of background about yourself on GK houses, help everyone get to know you a bit?   Matthew: Yeah. I'd love to some, the CEO of GK houses. I started it about 13 years ago during the last recession. And during that kind of, 07, 08, 09 time when the market crashed, I owned about 30 rental houses at the time and had a hard time selling those once the market crashed. Most of those were in the low to moderate income world and the ability to sell that went away. And I started a property management company, converted all those 30 over into rentals and was able to get some of my investor buddies to also let me manage them. So I got up to about 70 houses pretty quickly, and that was kind of how I lasted through that recession through 08, 09, 2010 was by managing homes in about, we also were selling homes. So we were doing some turnkey stuff at the time, kind of original before it was very popular. And, but in 2013 we really started off focusing on the management business. And we decided at that point we managed about 250 homes right here in Birmingham. And at that point we decided that we wanted to get to 25,000 houses under management. And so we've been growing that ever since 2013. And today we manage somewhere around 26, 2,700 homes in those eight markets that I talked about earlier.   Michael: Great. And did you have any personal management experience in the real estate arena or did you go straight from owner to manager?   Matthew: I always swore I would never be a property manager or a real estate agent…   Michael: You're in good company.   Matthew: And a lot of companies did that same thing. Yeah. And so never, never say that to yourself, but now I'm a real estate agent and a property manager. And so I managed my own homes. So I had been doing it ever since I first got started, even my first house I ever bought, I still own, and I have rented it ever since. And that was a disaster story. So it's amazing that I'm in the property management business. So yes, I did have a little bit of management experience. I had been in the buying and selling business for about seven or eight years. So I was very familiar with what a manager did. I had some other third party managers that manage some homes for me for some time and found all the things that I didn't like about a property manager. And so I decided to just do it ourselves, with GK Houses.   Michael: That's great. I love that. You've got that personal experience that you did it for yourself and then went into business, helping other people do it because it just shows that you understand the business kind of from the ground up, which I think is so huge. And you're able to treat the rentals as if they were your own.   Matthew: Yeah. There's nothing that replaces knowing what it's like to have a $500 bill come through, or a $2,000 air conditioning, a replacement come through where you're expecting that cashflow to pay the mortgage. And now all of a sudden you've got to figure out some other way to pay that mortgage. So it definitely gives us empathy for our owners. And that's something that we've tried to communicate and teach to the team members that work for us is, you know, and I'll often say to them, what if on Friday you found out that I was going to pay you $500 less with your paycheck. And they, you know, that would be disappointing to them if it was a surprise. And that is the same surprise that we were calling up from time to time. And unfortunately having to deliver bad news to owners because inevitably things are going to break when an owner buys a rental house they're in business and you're going to have expenses for that business. And so we've learned a lot over the years about having reserves and making sure that you can afford to pay for the lumpy expenses that are in this business, but it still requires a bunch of empathy from our team members when they're communicating with owners and having deliver, you know, have tough conversations.   Michael: That's great.   Tom: You touched on reserves. I'd love your thoughts, Matt, on, you know, what do you think an appropriate like reserve level is?   Matthew: Yeah. If I was in new person getting into the business and I bought a foot, let's call it a fully renovated home. I would probably stay about. And obviously depending on the age or the vintage of the house, I would stay about $3,000 out. So I would keep at least $3,000 available at all times. And then as I got to a bigger portfolio, obviously the per house number would come down because you could dilute that across the portfolio. But getting started, I would say somewhere around two to $3,000, just available to make sure that it doesn't affect your lifestyle. And if you do have one of those expenses that comes through   Michael: And in that same vein, most lenders are going to require a cash reserve amount for PITI. Would you consider that a couple thousand dollars to be that same pool of the reserve bucket? Are you saying above and beyond this? The reserve?   Matthew: Yeah. I'm just talking about expenses and then capitalizable type items. I mean, I may even start as you started to build a portfolio and this is one of the reasons I always tell people don't buy one rental house. I mean, certainly try it on dip your toe in the water, but it's way easier to own 10 rental homes than it is to own one because you all these expenses start to get diluted amongst your cashflow of your portfolio. And then it doesn't become as big of a deal when you have a $500 bill come through. If you have a rental house, a $500 bill comes through, you're literally writing a check out of your back pocket. Sometimes if you have 10 rental houses and a $500 bill comes through, it's just another number on your statement. And you're just calculating your return based on that. So I think of that in excess of that, I'm just thinking of, in terms of repairs and maintenance,   Michael: Tom like you always say peanut butter spreading that across.   Tom: Peanut butter spread the risk. I love that quote yeah, 10 properties, a lot easier than one property.   Matthew: It is, and absolutely if you're not having to manage all of them, any, even if you are, obviously you're spreading that risk across multiple residents with different jobs and different industries. And if somebody invests through you, they can even do it across different markets. So 10 seems to be the magic number in my opinion.   Michael: Great   Tom: perfect segue talking about, you know, as long as you're not managing it, and let's talk in a little bit about the roles and responsibility of a third party property manager that you would hire, what are the different things that services that they would provide in the process?   Matthew: I really think the services of a property manager fall into two buckets. There is the accounting bucket and the communication bucket. And obviously under that communication comes execution, but let's talk about accounting first. Part of our operations is accounting for our homeowners. We want to make sure that the money comes in on time, that the resident's abiding by what the lease term says in terms of money paid. And so we're going to kind of hold the resident to making sure financially that house is getting taken care of. And then we're going to account for all the dollars that come in and of course paying any expenses that we need to pay out of that money that comes in. And then the other side is just operations and communication around those operations. We're obviously going to make sure that the house is taken care of. One of the interesting things, especially around small multifamily and single family.   There's a lot of logistics involved in that. I always say it's a communication challenge and a logistics problem. So it's about, you know, having a one house, one owner or one vendor, you're always communicating with somebody. So you need to be really good at communicating. And our property managers become more like air traffic controllers. They're making sure the vendor knows where to go. What time to be there has the resident's information. The resident knows that the vendor's coming. The owner knows that there's a problem at the house if it exceeds a certain amount of money. And so you're having to keep all of these people in the loop and make sure that the planes aren't running into each other while you're that. And so, again, it just boils really down to accounting and making sure that I's are dotted and T's are crossed and then operations and communications.   Michael: Matt, you said something that I want to circle back to that the owner knows if there's a problem, if it's above a certain dollar amount. So from folks who have never purchased a property, what do you mean by that? And why is that important to highlight?   Matthew: Yes. So you hire a private manager to basically take care of the problems and you don't want to know that something small has happened at your house. That's not really going to affect your lifestyle. It's just kind of brain damage for somebody to call you over a hundred dollar issue. So we have, what's called a $500 kind of threshold. And if one of our maintenance guys goes out there and he sees that this thing's going to exceed over $500, we're going to contact the owner before we do anything and provide them an estimate. But if it's below that $500, we're generally just going to take care of that issue. And then the owner's going to see that happen. You know, see that payment on their statement. You hire a property manager and you will be circled in on all the big issues, but we want to handle all the small issues. That's why we feel like you hire us is for a turnkey solution, not to have to sweat the small stuff.   Michael: Awesome. Thanks for clarifying and Matt, in your opinion, you know what separates the good from the great property managers?   Matthew: Yeah. We go back to accounting and communication again, getting the numbers right. Is so incredibly important and you'd be surprised at how many property managers get that wrong. The other, again, communicating, it's so hard in our business to communicate and trying to make sure as an owner. And of course I was in this position. So I know exactly how they feel. If you don't know what's going on, it's not like you expect the best is happening. And so you want to make sure that you're clearly in the loop and you have the confidence and the trust of your property manager, that if something bad is happening, that you're going to be well aware of it. And also communicated with what we call uncomfortable transparency, which means I'm not going to withhold information from you to make it easier to tell you or more palatable or, you know, easier on me really, because I don't want you to get mad at me.   So we want to make sure that we're giving our owners the truth. And we call that also entering into the danger and telling them, being willing to tell them exactly what's going on with their house so that they, if it is a big issue, they can make the best decision for themselves. And also try to remain as objective as possible when we're communicating, because money can be very emotional for people. And if we can kind of steer them towards the best solution, then we want to make sure that we're doing that based on our experience as a property manager, you know, we do have the benefit of, and especially in the South right now, it's getting really hot and air conditioners are breaking well. We have the benefit of knowing that air conditioners break and things we've done in the past and mistakes that we've made in the past. So, you know, when it becomes a, should I spend 600 or $700 to fix this air conditioner and it may last another couple of years or a $2,000 replacement or a $2,500 replacement. Well, we can give them kind of some objective advice based on what we've seen in the past. And then the owner can make their own decision based on that information.   Tom: That's a great example of being proactive in informing the most decision and using some of the information that you guys have as an investor. We want to get the top dollar. We want to manage the least amount of vacancy as possible. What were some things that you would advise that the owner, the investor can help achieve those?   Matthew: Yeah, the biggest expense and investor's going to have is turnover. You know, you can have a picky tenant that calls in a lot of maintenance work orders, or it feels like they're calling in a lot of maintenance work orders, but truly turnover in my opinion is the biggest expense you have. I think of it and you played football, Tom. It is like going in to score a touchdown. And instead of you throw an interception on as you're about to score, and then they run it back for a touchdown, it's like a 14 point swing that somebody moves out because, and the reason I say that is not only do you have loss of rent, so you're not having money come in, but you're also having to pay money out on deferred expenses when that happens. And so it's very important that you keep residents in homes and the way you do that is you do it through good communication with the residents.   You do that through handling maintenance work orders. One of the things we found was our residents started staying longer when we internalize maintenance because our maintenance team is not out there just fixing a problem. Our maintenance team is tasked with making the resident happy because they're a GK team member. And so if you think about kind of the change in that, if a maintenance team member thinks his job is to just fix something, well, that's a problem if ultimately in the owner's best interest is that resident staying alone time. But if the maintenance team member is out there with the idea, I want to make this resonant as happy as possible, then it makes the resident happy. It's in the owner's best interest because the resident stays a whole lot longer.   Michael: That's great.   Tom: Oftentimes decisions, especially those big decisions that you'll make with an investor it's the repair or replace, or do we want to focus on vacancy or rent growth? And I don't know, I guess one of you just elaborate a little bit on those two important decision points that can make or break deals.   Matthew: Let's talk a little bit about rent growth, because I think what I've always thought of it, the way I mentally look at it is staying a little bit behind the curve. Like I don't want to be on the bleeding edge and I don't think investors want to be on the bleeding edge of pushing grants. And I know there's some institutions out there that will actually do that for us, I think. And I like to stay a little bit behind the curve because I think it's so important that that a doesn't move out. I don't want that resident to feel like they can get a better deal somewhere else. And so what I like to do is stay a little bit behind, but definitely be in tune with rent growth and be focused on it. In our leases, we have some rent growth built in, but that also gives us the ability to go to the resident and say, Hey, you know, the owners being very generous, wants you to stay another year and has decided only to raise it 1% instead of the three to 5%, which may be in our lease or even better, they've decided not to raise rent. And because, you know, they think you're an awesome resident and normally they would raise it 5%, but they're not going to raise it at all. So it gives us the ability to even if you only raise it 1%, it gives us the ability to basically say, Hey, the owner's doing you a favor because you signed up for three or 5%.   Michael: That's great. I think, yeah, like you mentioned Tom investors where they want top dollar and you know, as much as we can push the envelope, we'd like to, but that's really great advice. Cause I think something that I chat a lot about with Academy members is when it comes to pushing rent is do the calculation, do the math for if this tenant leaves and you've got three weeks of vacancy, what does that cost versus what do you stand to make with the 10, 15, 20 bucks a month? You're going to increase the rent. The math kind of works itself out pretty clearly.   Matthew: Yeah. I would think if I'm an investor and I am on a number of rental homes, I think in terms of seven to 10 years, how can I maximize the most amount of money over that seven to 10 years? Not now. And this gets into having reserves too, because if an owner is making short term decisions is going to affect his or her longterm seven to 10 year plan then, and that's a problem. If you have reserves, you can make clear objective decisions based on how much, what the best longterm getting the most money in over that seven to 10 years. And so I think as your clients and investors operate, they need to be thinking longterm because this is a, this is not a get rich quick game. It is a consistently make good decisions over the long period so that they can over the course of owning that rental home, whether it's seven to 15 years, then they end up in a much better place.   Michael: Tom, Matt set you up so nicely for your T-ball swing. What do you like to say? Be what?   Tom: Oh, longterm greedy, be longterm greedu.   Matthew: Yeah, that's great.   Michael: Matt, I want to ask you a question about property management fees specifically around vacancy. And I get the question a lot in the Academy that says, Hey, you know what? It seems like property managers, aren't incentivized to actually keep tenants in place because of the new tenant placement fee being 50% or 75% or a hundred percent of one month's rent versus a lease renewal is typically less. So what would you say to someone that had that question?   Matthew: Yeah, I think it's a great question. You definitely don't want to incentivize your property manager to do something that's not in your best interest. And so when you're thinking about property management fees, what I would tell somebody is make sure that the fees are in line as well as you can with your incentives or with the incentives of the property manager, because you just don't want anybody to have to make this kind of moral decision that affects their income. And so what I would say is the way we look at it is we do need to make money when we're leasing, because we do a lot of work. The way we look at GK Houses is we want it to be an annuity business for our owners and for us. And the way to do that is to keep residents in homes. And that allows us to do certainly we're doing a lot of work while the residents in the house, but as soon as that resident moves out, I mean, it's like a full time job trying to get that home back on the market as quickly as possible. And so we often talk about, and we've structured our fees so that we don't want people moving out. We want to build this big annuity snowball. And so to me, you need to make sure that your property managers fees align with your interests and your interest of being an annuity. So I would say incentivize the manager to renew the lease over a leasing fee. Now the leasing fee may be higher, but what kind of work did they have to do to earn that? I would much rather earn a couple hundred dollars, 200 $5,300 renewal fee that is, that, you know, requires two to three hours worth of work versus the, you know, maybe 20 plus hours of work. I would pour it into a turn.   Michael: And can you give somebody who's listening a real high level overview of what work does go into a turn because I think that's such a great point is there is so much work that goes on into placing a new tenant, but that goes on behind the scenes. Most folks don't have any idea.   Tom: The Duck's legs under the water. That's another episode where we riffed on that for a minute. So, sorry. Yeah, go ahead.   Matthew: Well, we think about this about 60 to 90 days out. So we're trying to renew the resident almost, you know, six to eight months into their lease. We're trying to do it as quickly as possible. And so when they submit their notice and they start to move, you know, we start communication. So we communicate with the unit or, Hey, your resident is submitted. Notice just wants you to know. And then we give them an idea of what we're going to do when they move out. When the resident finally does turn in keys and moves out, we're going to do, depending on the market, we're in, we're going to do a walkthrough. And generally that happens not the same day, but within 24 or 48 business hours of that resident moving out. And we do a full writeup with pictures and it is amazing how many pictures we take, but we really feel like this is part of taking pictures, is communication with the owner.   They can see the pictures and kind of feel what the house looks like. And then one of the things that owners forget is we also have a requirement with the resident to account for their security deposit. So we have all these logistics going on and all this communication with the resident and communication with the owner, we send out a statement or an estimate, the owner that basically dumps all the expenses into three categories. One is these are the expenses we want to charge the resident for anything above normal wear and tear. So, you know, if the carpet has been lived on you can't really charge a resident for that because you expect the carpet to be lived on. But if there's a hole in the wall for some sort of misuse, or you can tell that the home has been misused there, we're going to charge that resonant for that.   And then there's a column that we say are required repairs. And so required repairs are, there's a hole in the wall and we need to fix this before the next resident moves in. You just can't leave a hole. Nobody's going to rent a house with a big hole in the wall, or then the next column is recommended. So maybe there's a room that is kind of in between. It's kind of in a gray area. May if you paint this room, it's going to run faster or you're going to rent it for more money. But if you don't paint it, then it's not going to keep us from renting. So we divide our estimate into those three columns and we'll send it to the homeowner and the homeowner will either approve the required or add on the recommended on top of that, and then approve whether the resident's security deposit. They're happy with how we account for that.   Then we have to basically do the accounting of the resident security deposit and then mail that to the resident. Now, oftentimes sometimes the resident disagrees with how we accounted for that. And the resident obviously did a move in when they, when they, and we did a move in before. So there's some time there's some kind of go back and forth between them and us on it. Was this a definitely misuse or was this like this when you moved in? And so sometimes when we inherit leases, we deal with some issues with that, but we do a really good job of a moving walk through. So we have pictures of the house before it moves in and we can easily compare those to the move out, walk through. Then once we we're done with the resident and everybody's happy there simultaneously, we're going back and forth with the owner on the work that needs to be done to get the house on the market.   And to me, owners love speed. And so that's one of the things we try to do is there is an anxiety that happens with an owner as soon as that resident moves out, that money stopped coming in and the expenses start, but it also makes an owner feel better if it gets done very quickly. So we're trying to renovate that house, turn that house as quickly as possible, and then put it back out on the market as fast as possible. And so, you know, depending on how long it takes to do the work, you know, our goal is to get that house back on the market, just literally as quickly as possible. And the only downtime being the time it takes to get the work done. We also start pre-marketing. So we try to start building some excitement. Some of our markets, we actually pre-market even when the residents about to move out, I just kinda made it hard recently with the pandemic, but you know, kind of a normal world will pre-market and we've been leasing a lot of homes.   We're starting to use some video tours. We're using a Matterport camera and we've been pre-leasing homes without people actually even walking through them. We've done a really good job with these Matterport cameras. And then again, getting it out on the market and getting as many people through it. One of the things that we found though, is if you take somebody through and the work's not done, sometimes there is a misunderstanding of what work needs to be done or what work is going to get done. And there's some disappointment from time to time. So we like to get the work done first, build the excitement, and then generally your first people through are your best opportunities to rent that house. Cause there's a, they feel that sense of urgency. And then we signed the lease and hopefully they move in as quickly as possible so that we get the rent coming back in and stop the expenses from flowing out.   Tom: I had like two questions I was going to, but you kept hitting him. I was, you know, I was gonna ask, Oh, you know, what changes have you guys made with the pandemic? And that's cool. So you guys are doing video tours and   Matthew: Yeah, we're using a Matterport camera now, which is basically you set it up in the middle of the room and it allows somebody to virtually walk through the house and it is really cool and it shows it's got a fish eye on it, fisheye camera on. It allows people to really see what it's like to live in that room. And the other thing is it's really a touchless and we're not using leasing agents as much as we did any more. Now, some areas are starting to let some leasing agents back. Colorado's allowing us to use leasing agents again, but it's still a opened the door. Let somebody go through and kind of obviously socially distancing the whole time. But we also use Rently a lot boxes on our homes, which allows a resident to check themselves in with a credit card and their ID. And they can go through the home by themselves without us having to be there.   There's some, obviously some accountability and the fact that we have a credit card and we have their ID and we know who they are, we have their cell phone number, but then we're proactively following up. So one of the things that we found in the past, we went a little too automated where we wanted somebody just never to talk to us to the point where they just leased our house without ever talking to us. But now we've found that proactively reaching out and talking to somebody on the phone, right after a showing, is that great way to get somebody comfortable enough to submit an app. And we're receiving right now, somewhere around three in some markets and somewhere around five times as many applications, part of that is pandemic driven. I think there's a move right now from multifamily to single family, just cause people don't want to be on top of everybody, but in part of it is the summer, but we're more occupied right now than we've ever been before.   Tom: That's really interesting.   Michael: Yeah. Very interesting. Matt a question. I get a lot in the Academy, especially of folks who are looking at Roofstock inspections is I've got all this repair work that needs to get done. Is this something that I have to do that I have to coordinate? Or is that going to fall on the shoulders of the PM? Are they able to assist in helping coordinate that work repair work to be done?   Matthew: I can't speak for all PMs, but I love it when we do the work in full transparency. So we do make money when we do the work as the general contractor of that work. But when I can control the process for the owner and I can control the communication and I can control what gets done and I have vendors that know how I work and I can get them in and get them out. I always think of it again, it says value and speed. I can get it done so quickly and there's not a lot of coordination and communication. If you're in a market, you could certainly try to do that because you may have the time, the drive over there. And it makes sure that the contractor is getting the work done. The biggest challenge we have is contractors and relationships with contractors. So for somebody to remotely hire a contractor and get the work done for not only cheaper, but on time and all their work done appropriately to me is just too big of a risk to take.   And what ends up happening is they end up putting the burden on the property manager to go make sure that we're gets done. So then it ends up costing them more because we're going to charge them for some of that oversight. So we just say, look, just let us handle it. And we're happy to give people an estimate to get that work done. And then we'll contract it out to the people that are vetted vendors that are insured. And if somebody falls off the proverbial roof, then they're not going to Sue you. And so we just think it's in the owner's best interest to let the PM handle that.   Michael: Great. And what would you say the most difficult part of being a property manager is what do you wake up everyday and go, Oh man,   Matthew: Not to use another football reference, but I am going to, there is no Superbowl in our world. There's no, we won the super bowl and now we can take two or three weeks off when the 31st hits and we collect a hundred percent of our rent. The first comes the next day and then all our rent's due again. And owners need to know this too. It is a thankless business. The whole point of the job is to deal with problems. And so when you're communicating with your property manager, you need to know that they are doing nothing but dealing with the exceptions, all the problems that have happened that day. And so I have a lot of empathy and sympathy for my team because it is hard. You have to keep them excited and it's hard not to get burned out. And so when an owner gets mad or a resident gets mad at them, obviously that takes an emotional toll.   And generally our PMs are not the ones that made the mistake or when something happens and listen, we're people, we're human. We try to execute as well as we can, but we are going to make mistakes. But when an owner kind of takes that out on a PM, because that's the person they see as kind of the face of the company, you know, that takes an emotional toll on people. So the whole, and when you're communicating with a resonant about not paying rent, you're talking to them about their home and the money, you know, money it's, everything emotionally is tied into this one thing that we're doing. So we have a lot of hard conversations. And so that's, what's so hard about being a PM. And I would say, that's, what's so hard about self managing too, you have the ability to be objective in an emotional situation?   Going back to the first rental house that I bought, I had a six month kind of agreement with an insurance company on a house that had burned down or somebody's house had burned down and they moved in for six months. The insurance company paid me additional money over above what I was asking. Well, the house person was living in the house. Couldn't afford the house normally. And when their house wasn't ready, they'd never moved out of my house. And so here I am self managing I'm 23 years old, and I need that money. I am very emotional about needing that money. And so I was probably the worst person to be dealing with that situation because I was overly emotional making bad decisions. Here I am. This is my first rental house I got paid for six months. Everything was great. I thought I was a real estate guru. And all of a sudden, now my resident's not paying, I'm paying a mortgage and it's not like I just have tons of money left over every month. And so I was just in an emotional place. And what I would say is, if you can't be objective, you can't treat that relationship like a business or even worse. Maybe you do have a lot of money or the ability to float things. And you allow things to go on too long because a resident may tell you a story. You know, it becomes very hard to be objective in those situations because either you're emotional about your own finances or you become emotional about the resident situation. And it really is like running a business. Well, listen, we do have a lot of sympathy and empathy for our tenants. We're very resident friendly, cause we know we want them to stay a long time. We want good residents to stay a long time, but you also have to be very objective when you're dealing with them. And, and so if somebody can't separate themselves from the situation, it becomes a lot of conflict. You know, personally, you're not going to do the right thing consistently to self manage.   Michael: I think that's such great insight into property manager, being a thankless business. You know, I personally am going to make this admission on the podcast. I don't think I've ever called my property manager wants to thank them for a full rent collection month, but I know I've called them and asked why the rent was late. So less than to everybody listening go, thank your property managers for the good stuff. Don't just highlight the bad stuff.   Matthew: And we do have some owners that are kind enough to thank us. And we do have some really great owners, but you're right. I mean, the expectation of the owner is full rent collection and no expenses. So as long as that happens,   Michael: Right, right.   Matthew: The bar is at a hundred percent.   Tom: Everybody's good.   Matthew: So anything below that is us not meeting expectations, even though, you know, it's not our house. If the toilet breaks, I've never used that toilet. Right. It wasn't you. Right. But I do understand too, that it's kind of funny, like an owner may move out of the house and then a new resident moves in and immediately owners because they are emotional about, especially a house that they lived in and owner will become very well that toll, it never broke when I was there. And I'm like, well, I don't know what to tell you.   Michael: I don't know what to tell you! Tom, You got any more questions?   Tom: Yeah. I guess, you know, kind of continuing on this theme of, you know, helping this thankless job, how would you say investors could help put their property manager in a better position to be successful?   Matthew: One of the things I would say is around communication is a lot of people want, expect like an email to go out and then an immediate email to come back and we do have RPMs or full time communicating. So we do have the ability to do that, but there are times when they need to be a little flexible about how fast we get back to people, because we do have other fires that are raging from time to time that a PM may be very focused on getting another owner's property fixed. So just having a, you know, not an unrealistic expectation around how fast we're able to get back with people. And look, we that's. One of the things that we measure is we do measure how fast we get back with people.   So we are getting back with people fairly quickly. The other thing is, again, having reserves really helps us out because it gets us into a situation where we're doing the right thing. We're playing the odds. We're placing good bets with these homes and allowing us to help you manage for the long term. So those are two things an owner can do. And then also when they do communicate with us, I know you're going to get frustrated when something happens bad and look, we're frustrated too, but know, it's every bit as hard to make that phone conversation and make that phone call and just know that the PM has been dreading calling you and telling you that there's this $500 expense or whatever it is. And so just having some empathy for that person that is making that phone call is helpful and being problem solvers together. Let's Hey, we're on the same team. We didn't cause this problem, but we're going to both fix it as teammates   Tom: Love it.   Michael: It's such a good point about around the communication timing. I was chatting with a student in the Academy. I won't say from where I was just say it rhymes with smooshmork. And they said, you know, I can't deal with this property manager. I said, what happened? He goes, well, I emailed them 20 minutes ago and have her back. I said, well, that, that might be how you're used to communicating, understand that it's different around the country. And so what I was recommending folks is just ask, when you're chatting with property managers, vetting property managers, ask them what their communication style is and ask them what a reasonable response time is, because the expectation should be set on the front end.   Matthew: Other thing I would add around communication. If you start to get up to, let's say five to 10 rental properties, what you need to is set up a regular monthly call with your property manager. We have found these calls to be so helpful. Again, getting back into being objective. You really solve problems together for the longterm. There's no emotion around it. There's no surprises when you have five to 10 rental properties and it's worth the manager spending an hour with you and kind of making sure that you're on the same page on a regular basis. It would be hard to have those calls for anybody below five houses let's say. But if you're starting to get up into five and continuing to grow, it makes sense for you to have a regular monthly call. And if you get to a point where you have 20 to 25 houses, it may be a weekly call that you would want to have. But I can't tell you how these regular calls have really helped us with our communication with owners, because you're not just hearing about the bad problems. You're also hearing, Hey, we collected this. We collected that. And you're starting to kind of get a better picture of what your portfolio is doing.   Michael: I've got to go set up weekly call. That's a really great idea.   Tom: I know. I love that as a takeaway from today's session... Yeah, I love that. That is a great idea. I really like that.   Michael: Tom, you got anything else?   Tom: That's good for me. Yeah. That's super insightful.   Michael: Love it. Awesome. Well, Matt, we've got some quick fire questions. We'd like to end our episodes with, if you don't mind, it's kind of a yes, no one answer to the other.   Matthew: All right, I'll do it. Alright.   Michael: So high rent growth or low vacancy?   Matthew: Low vacancy.   Michael: Angry resident or angry investor?   Matthew: Ooh, Whats C?. Yeah, definitely angry resident. Although none of those are fun.   Michael: Cashflow or appreciation?   Matthew: I am a cashflow guy.   Michael: Concentration or diversification?   Matthew: I am a concentration guy and I think this is an important thing too, is probably a good nugget for the people that are going to be listening to this, become an expert in an area. First, in my opinion, before you try to diversify too much, I have found that when you become an expert in one area like a Birmingham or even a neighborhood in Birmingham, then you are way more successful at buying than trying to diversify and not being an expert in one area. Sorry. That was more than one word, but..   Michael: No, that's super great insight. Super great insight. Local or remote investing?   Matthew: I think you can do both with technology today. I mean, I would hate to say one over the other because I think if you have access to all the technology that I have living in Birmingham, so it makes no sense for you living in California or in New York or wherever you're living, not to invest in Birmingham because I have the access to the exact same information as you do.   Michael: Great. Single family or multifamily.   Matthew: I'm a single family guy. I think, I think the best opportunities and the biggest opportunities to exploit what is still incredibly inefficient market is in the single family world. I think your points about like the pandemic people wanting a little bit more breathing room, like single family, really great way to go. I'm telling you, Tom we're at over 98% occupied. I've never been on. I've been doing this now almost 13 years. Never been that high and never gotten the amount of applications that were getting approved residents. Great residents are moving into our homes. It is really a good time to be in the single family world. Great turnkey or massive project. Definitely turnkey. Okay. Text message or email. I'm a text message guy. My emails, I forgot like 50,000 unread emails. That's a true story. I can, I can show you.   Michael: That's great. Last one. Olive oil or butter?   Matthew: I'm an olive oil guy.   Tom: Love it. Awesome.   Michael: Awesome. Well, Matt, thank you so much for taking the time to view with us today. If folks want to reach out to you at GK houses, you know, what's the best way someone can get in touch with you or someone on your staff?   Matthew: Yeah. I would say email me, but obviously…   Tom: The jig is up!   Michael: 50,001, right?   Matthew: Listen. The best email to email is support@gkhouses.com and we are monitoring that through a help desk type system. And then that'll get assigned to the right person in our office that can handle that. You can also look us up online and call any one of our offices. So we're a Roofstock preferred vendor in Atlanta and in Birmingham. And am I allowed to say the other two coming down?   Tom: Of course, growing markets all the time.   Matthew: So Little Rock, y'all are in Little Rock now and we're also a property manager there. And then we had a conversation with one of your team members this week about y'all are opening up in Denver, which is super exciting. So glad we're going to be a preferred vendor there too. So just y'all are growing and allowing us to grow right alongside of you. So we appreciate you so much.   Tom: Onward and upward.   Matthew: Yeah.   Tom: Thank you so much for coming on Matt.   Matthew: Yeah. Thank you for having me.   Michael: You got it, take care.   Michael: Okay. Everyone. That was our episode. Thank you so much to Matt Whitaker for coming on today. Really, really appreciate it. If y'all liked the episode, feel free to give us a rating or review wherever it is you listen to your podcast and we look forward to seeing you on the next one.  

Some of the highlights include:  Why Vodafone moved to a cloud native architecture. As Tom explains, the company was struggling to manage operations across more than 20 markets. They also needed to improve the customer experience, and foster customer loyalty.  Why their business and engineering teams were both in favor of cloud native. The benefits of deploying daily operational activities around a single cloud native platform.   An overview of where Vodavone currently is in their overall cloud native journey. Tom also explains how cloud native conversations have changed inside of the company throughout their journey, as various business units have caught on to the benefits of the cloud. Vodafaone's transition from outsourcing roughly 97 percent of their operations, to bringing 95 percent in house. Tom explains how this has improved efficiency and expedited time to market. The challenge that Vodafone faced in trying to apply legacy network security solutions to distributed and dynamic systems.  Tom's thoughts on why Vodafone's cloud native transition and modernization efforts have been crucial to their success over the last five years.  Links: Vodafone Group: https://www.vodafone.com/ Connect with Tom on LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/tom-kivlin-5b469321 The Business of Cloud Native: http://thebusinessofcloudnative.com  Tom's Twitter: https://twitter.com/tomkivlin CNCF GitHub: https://github.com/cncf CNCF Slack: https://slack.cncf.io/ Kubernetes Slack: http://slack.kubernetes.io/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native podcast, where we explore how end users talk and think about the transition to Kubernetes and cloud-native architectures.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and today I am chatting with Tom Kivlin. Tom, thank you so much for joining us.Tom: You're welcome. No problem.Emily: Let's just start out with having you introduce yourself. What do you do? Where do you work, and what do you actually do during your workday?Tom: Sure. So, I'm a principal cloud orchestration architect at Vodafone Group. I work in the UK. And my day job consists of providing guidance and strategy and architectural blueprints for cloud-native platforms within Vodafone. So, that's around providing guidance to the software domains that are looking to adopt cloud-native architectures and methodologies and also to the more traditional infrastructure domains to try and help them provide their services in a more cloud-native manner to those modern teams.Emily: And what does that mean when you go into the office—or your home office, go into your dining room where your laptop is, I don't know—what do you actually do? What does an average day look like?Tom: It can vary. So, depending on the activity at the time, it could be anything from preparing a global policy that needs to go through the senior technology leadership team, to preparing some extremely detailed requirements for selection process or creating some infrastructures code, or the code artifacts for the deployment of cloud-native services, whether that's in our lab, or to help our services teams within Vodafone.Emily: Tell me a little bit more about what pain made Vodafone think about moving to cloud-native and Kubernetes.Tom: Primarily, it was the challenge of having 25 different markets, or 23 now. We launched a digital strategy to—so back in 2015, we launched a five-year strategy, which we wanted to massively increase the rollout of 4G, of converged network offerings, of improved customer experience. And we found that the traditional way of managing software was not supportive enough in our ambition. And so, having to choose cloud-native technologies, things like Kubernetes, but also the modern operating models, that was the driver: it was to improve our customer experience, and our customer-affecting KPIs, really.Emily: And when you say it wasn't supportive enough, what do you mean specifically?Tom: So, things like time to market, for example. So, if we wanted to offer a new service—so one of the things that 4G started the drive towards was a more granulated service offering to consumers, and so lots of different things could be offered. And if it took you six months to think of an idea and then have to go through—or even longer than six months to get to the point where that could be offered to customers, even if it was just a very minor feature within an existing product, then that's not going to engender customer loyalty. And so, things like the cloud-native mindset, where there's a much closer link between the engineering teams and the customer, there are much shorter periods of time between ideas coming in from the customers and then being delivered back to the customers as product features, that sort of time to market was really enabled by cloud-native technologies and mindsets.Emily: And how does having two dozen, more or less, different markets, how does that play into the decision A) to move to cloud-native in general, and managing the IT infrastructure?Tom: So, one of the things that's really driven it is trying to simplify and reuse artifacts. So, if you've got 23 markets all doing a different thing, then there's obviously a lot of duplication happening across the group, whereas if everyone's using the same technology in the same platforms—take Kubernetes as the example—everyone can write their software for that platform. Everyone can write their operational ecosystem around that platform. So, the deployment artifacts, the pipelines, the day two operational activities, they can all be based around that single cloud-native platform. And so, that enables a huge amount of efficiency from the operational side. And that in turn allows those engineering teams to focus on things that are adding value to the business and the customer instead of having to focus on fairly low-level tasks that are just keeping the lights on, if you like.Emily: What's different for each one of those markets?Tom: So, it might be something like language, it might be something as simple as that. It may be that the offerings are slightly tweaked. So, rather than, I don't know, as an example, rather than Spotify being included as a kind of add on, it might be some other service that's more relevant to that market. It may be that there are particular regulatory requirements that are specific to a market that needs to be considered within the product design and the engineering of it. And so, having a cloud-native response allows sharing and reuse of artifacts where we can, but still allows for that customization where it's required.Emily: Where would you say Vodafone is in the cloud-native journey? Do you feel like you've, mission accomplished?Tom: So, mission accomplished, as in the first step, yeah. So, we set out a goal in 2015, to get a certain number of our applications to the Cloud, and that's largely been reached, I think, especially with our customer channels, so that the kind of points of interaction with the customer, the huge number of those are cloud-native today. And things like automated customer interaction with chatbots, and the like, that's all added to the cloud-nativeness of the interaction. As part of our next iteration, we'll be looking for more cloud-native software and cloud-native platforms, and that will start extending into the network systems themselves, as well as the more digital and easily modernizable layers, if you like.Emily: What sort of business value do you feel like you're looking for as you move to the next step?Tom: So, primarily, it's going to be driven by customer satisfaction and customer affecting KPIs, like I said before. That's always what's driven the business metrics anyway. So, things like being able to support the demand of the customer. So, whether that's the new 5G services, for increased bandwidth. So, obviously, if our network systems themselves are cloud-native, then taking advantage of the auto-scaling, and the auto-healing, and the autonomic nature, then the customer experience, and the customer satisfaction will increase. Improving time to market, so again, part of 5G is that the whole notion of creating more differentiating services, and so if we can do that through the cloud-native mindset with product owners being much more closely engaged with customers, then that improves our product offerings. And we can optimize our network profitability by using cloud-native features like modern big data analytics, and even AI and automation to improve the operations of the network. At the end of the day, the business value is improved customer satisfaction, which improves our financial performance, obviously.Emily: And when you started out in 2015, who was pushing for moving to cloud-native? Was this the business saying, “Hey, how do we improve customer satisfaction?” Was it engineering saying, “Hey, here's an idea for something that could help us move faster?” Who was behind that?Tom: That's a good question. I think it's probably an element of both. It was the opposite of the push me, pull you, I guess. So, there was engineering pushing on an open door, I suppose you could say. So, Cloud was a bit of a buzzword around that time anyway, but I think it's fair to say the concepts of improved time to market, improved stability, the potential for improved security, improved automation, and repeatability, they were all relatively easy sells to product teams who want to be able to sell products to customers. And once you're able to explain what problems those concepts solve, I think it became a bit of a, like I say, pushing on an open door.Emily: Can you tell me a little bit about the process of explaining what problems these things solve? Was there anything that was getting lost in translation?Tom: Yeah. I think the biggest thing that I can recall—obviously, it's a company-wide thing. I'm never going to be aware of everything that happens—certainly, it's critical to try and understand what the target operating model is before trying to say, “Here's the technology solution to it.” So, I think some of the lessons that were learnt in the early stages were, rather than trying to say, “Here's the technology answer to a modern way of working that hasn't been agreed or adopted or even understood yet,” let's do that part first, so people understand how they need to work in this modern kind of culture. And then the technology answers then make a bit more sense to people because they're able to say, “Okay, I understand the problems that's solving now because I'm now working in that way of working.” So, that's probably the biggest learning point I would take from the previous five years.Emily: Do you feel like the conversation, how did it evolve from the first conversations over the course of the past five years, and then what's it like now?Tom: It's very different now. The concept of Cloud and cloud-native has become a given and very well understood across the business, even outside of technology. So, we talked to other business units, and they're quite comfortable in understanding the benefits of Cloud. And it's now about when they mature into cloud-native, and when they mature operating models, rather than if. And it's now talking and giving guidance about how to do it, rather than trying to sell the concept itself. So, it just feels like you're at that next stage of not having to sell the idea anymore, and more into the detail of how to implement that idea.Emily: What would you say were some of the biggest surprises? And let's start with thinking about some of the biggest surprises, not necessarily technically but organizationally, in how engineering was talking with the business, how people were working together. Was there anything about this journey that was unexpected?Tom: Not particularly. I think the biggest change that happened, which was possibly unexpected when we started, was the level of insourcing that we have undertaken to support the cloud-native operating models, the time to market, and the modern engineering teams. So, we used to be around 97 percent outsourced or something like that, in terms of building software that wasn't just vendor supplied. And for all that software now, we're more like 95 percent in-house. And so, that's quite a big change, and I think that probably surprised people that A) we needed to do it, and B) that we have done it, and relatively successfully got pretty wide-scale digital engineering functions across many markets now.Emily: And why do you think that matters?Tom: Because it gives us control of the roadmap, it gives us control of that time to market cadence, and it allows us to use the data that our teams understand and know about, and to share that with other markets. So, as I say, even though an engineering team might be in the UK, they can share what they've done, they can share the artifacts, they can share the data that's driven decisions and software activity with other markets within Vodafone. And that just improves that efficiency, again.Emily: Do you think insourcing also improves customer satisfaction KPIs?Tom: Certainly we've seen that. So, whether that's a correlation or causation is kind of for someone with more access to more data than I've got. But certainly, we've seen an increase in online sales, and our digital marketing is more data-driven. And that has happened in correlation with the in-sourcing of software engineering skillset, yeah.Emily: Do you have any specific examples that come to mind in, maybe you are able to react in a way that wouldn't have been possible if you'd been using the old system?Tom: I'm not aware of any specific examples, unfortunately.Emily: Was there anything about the move to Kubernetes, to cloud-native, that you expected to be difficult, and wasn't. So, that was easier than you expected?Tom: That's a good question. I suspect the provision of multiple clusters. Kubernetes is difficult. It's a complex system, hence why there are so many cluster management vendor offerings available. And I think we chose a couple of partners early on in the journey to help us with that, and I think that really helped, and it made Kubernetes a little less scary for the software teams who were using it. So certainly, I've heard feedback—this is anecdotal, rather than anything that's evidence-driven—actually, just being able to create clusters and deploy into them was easier than people had thought when they were learning about Kubernetes through the quick start tutorials and the like.Emily: Was there anything that sticks out as being far more difficult than expected? The more unpleasant surprises?Tom: I wouldn't necessarily call them unpleasant, but obviously there's going to be a transition period—which we're in—between the traditional data-center-centric networking and network security policies and concepts, and those that work with Cloud and cloud-native platforms like Kubernetes. And there have definitely been challenges in trying to apply the legacy approach to network security with a distributed and dynamic system like Kubernetes, where you can't give everything a static IP address or even have separate subnets within a cluster for segregation, for example. It has to be done in a different way. You can still apply the same controls, they just have to be done in a different way. So, I think that's one of a few challenges that we found that we've had to work through with different vendors, with engineering teams, and with our internal teams to try and update our guidance on how to apply those controls.Emily: And to what extent have there been organizational challenges, and how have you gotten over those?Tom: That's a tricky one to answer, really. I think it all comes down to the balance between understanding and buying into a strategy, but then applying that to application lifecycle and investment lifecycles. So, I think this is probably true for any company: just because a strategy says this is the thing to do, you got a roadmap for your portfolio of applications and services that you need to balance a limited budget. And so, that's been the biggest challenge, is to try and identify how much of each budget at various levels can be spent on strategic activity, and then for which services, and trying to keep that balance, and bearing in mind that there are lots of different things pulling on that same pot of money.Emily: And what have you learned about managing that?Tom: I think primarily that there needs to be a holistic view of strategic projects. It's quite difficult to put the onus on a local budget, to spend the money to do something strategic when the benefits are probably—and the business case is probably seen more widely than the individual budget area. But I think it differs between situations, and between markets, and what's happening. I think the primary thing is to understand the costs of the strategy upfront, and try and work those costs into whatever needs doing over the period.Emily: A slightly different question, which is, is there anything you feel like in the cloud-native journey that you're still working on solving, that you haven't really figured out yet?Tom: I'm not sure whether we haven't figured this out yet, but one of the things we're putting a lot of effort in at the moment, is the use of advanced data and analytics platforms to try and drive even more network automation, and network planning efficiencies. So, I think it was last year at Google Next, we announced a partnership with Google to make use of their data services. And there's a few projects ongoing within Vodafone to try and drive the amount of knowledge and useful information we can gather from the vast quantities of data we have about our services and the customers that use them because the more we can use that data, the more we can respond to customer need in a timely manner, whether that's reactively in terms of operational response or whether that's proactively in seeing trends that we can then meet a need that may be unsaid yet.Emily: And if you were to talk to another engineering leader who was trying to push through the open door as you were saying, what advice would you give them?Tom: The biggest bit of advice is to understand the current way of working for whichever area you're—is on the other side of the door, and understand their pain points because it's not always the same answer. So, generalizing, it may be that one area is more than happy to have a centralized global platform offering, whether that's within our data centers, or public cloud, or both. Another area, just the way it's managed, may require a more distributed model, where the services are offered on a more market specific level. And so, I think that that's the main thing, is to understand the specifics of that area that you're talking to because it will affect how you want to architect and onwardly deploy and manage that technology.Emily: It would affect not just how you want to architect the technology, but also how you want to communicate what your plan is, right?Tom: Absolutely. Yeah. So, in the first of the examples I gave, where an area might be happy with a centralized service, that probably means they're already using one. The way you would communicate that would be via that existing channel, if you like. Whereas on the flip side, that kind of channel may not exist, and therefore running the project or projects and communicating with stakeholders would be much more distributed.Emily: At Vodafone was there ever any challenge selling it, not just over to the business side, but also selling internally inside engineering teams? Or was everyone pretty gung ho to do this?Tom: No, there's always challenges. I think again, it goes back to understanding the pain points of an area and understanding why things are the kind of as they are today, which I guess is general for things outside of technology and outside of Vodafone generally is. If you understand the position of the person you're debating with, then you're more likely to reach a common understanding than if you go into it with your own point of view and being unwilling to listen. So, I think that's the main thing is just being willing to listen, to understand pain points, and to be able to react to those within a strategy. You'd hope that it's flexible enough to be able to meet a wide range of needs without needing to necessarily change the overall vision.Emily: How important do you think this cloud-native transition has been for Vodafone?Tom: I think it's been crucial. I think we couldn't have done what we've done in the last five years without it. So, there's a video that our group CTO has posted on LinkedIn recently which highlighted a few things around improved mobile KPIs, we've got 4G in 21 markets, we've got the largest 5G in Europe, and all of those improvements from time to market I've already mentioned, we simply couldn't have done that without a modernization program to move to cloud-native across a number of our systems. So, yes, that's partly a technology thing, but also, it is such a cultural thing, and having that modern way of working where you have your modern engineering teams who are closer to the customer, but they're also—the different mindset of a modern engineering company where you're not afraid to try new things, and if you fail, you learn from them. And I think that's all part of what I would class as cloud-native, and that has been, like I say, it's been crucial for us to be able to get where we have been.Emily: It's interesting to think cloud-native means if you fail, you learn from it. That's a fairly basic concept, and yet true. I can see how that is, sort of, part of being cloud-native.Tom: Yeah, it's one of those things is quite a basic thing, but I think in traditional ways of working, the focus on the availability of systems and the performance of systems can blind everyone to the possibilities outside of that particular area of focus. And it puts pressure on people at all levels to try and minimize periods of downtime or periods of low performance. And over time, people become less and less willing to be able to try new things, through fear of failing because just the way people work it's difficult to learn from those failings because it affects customers. And so, what cloud-native technologies enable because of the way things are orchestrated—things are dynamic, things are repeatable—it's very easy to try new things, and not affect all customers. Now, obviously, good software engineering practices help as well. But I think the cloud-native technologies and the ways of working really do support the whole “learn by failing” premise.Emily: Do you think it would have been possible to get the customer satisfaction KPIs that you did, without moving to cloud-native, in any other way?Tom: I think the only way you could have done is by a huge investment in people and the traditional technologies. It would have been a much more expensive and slower journey, in my opinion.Emily: Anything else that you want to add about your experience moving to cloud-native?Tom: No, I don't think so. I think one of the things—like I said before, the increase in automation, the increase in the modern technologies is just really helped with those customer affecting KPIs, and that has to be the drive for why you're doing it.Emily: All right, just a couple more questions, then. What is your can't-live-without engineering tool?Tom: Oh, that's a good question. Probably Python. I think so many people use it either as a cross-platform scripting tool to be able to automate things and get on the first step towards cloud-native, or it's such a key part of many cloud-native tools like things like Ansible and other tools, and it's used hugely within our data analytics domain to try and drive the usefulness of the data. So, yeah, that's probably the one I'd choose.Emily: And then this actually is the last question which is, how can listeners follow you or connect with you?Tom: So, I'm on Twitter at @tomkivlin. I'm also on LinkedIn. So, I'm Tom Kivlin, working for Vodafone Group. I am a member of the telecom user group within the CNCF. So, you can find them on GitHub and also in the… I think it's the CNCF or the Kubernetes Slack. And yeah, happy to share experiences and keep learning.Emily: Well, thank you so much. Again, this is Tom Kivlin, and we'll go ahead and wrap it up there. Thank you so much, Tom.Announcer: Thank you for listening to The Business of Cloud Native podcast. Keep up with the latest on the podcast at thebusinessofcloudnative.com and subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or wherever fine podcasts are distributed. We'll see you next time.This has been HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Phil’s guest on this episode of the IT Career Energizer podcast is Tom Gilb, the author of ten books and hundreds of papers on requirements, design, project management and related subjects. His ideas on requirements are the acknowledged basis for CMMi Level 4, which were based upon his pioneering book, ‘Software Metrics’, where he also coined that term. Tom has lectured at universities across the globe, and has been a keynote speaker at multiple technical conferences. In 2012, he was named an Honorary Fellow of the British Computer Society. Tom joins Phil today to discuss his extensive business journey, his outlook upon the analytical approach to solving problems, and why the future of IT may lie in adopting an engineering approach.   KEY TAKEAWAYS: (4:08) TOP CAREER TIP Always try to volunteer to help people who may be facing a challenge. Gain permission to help, make friends and learn along the way. Even if you aren’t always successful, you will mark yourself out as a useful colleague.   (9:08) WORST CAREER MOMENT Tom tends not to think of his career in best or worst terms, but there have been scary moments. The most memorable involved his being asked to solve a complex problem by Israeli rocket scientists. Tom succeeded, despite his reservations, and was rewarded by having his computer confiscated!   (14:15) CAREER HIGHLIGHT Working in India, Tom was able to convince the workers there to increase the quality of their workmanship instead of selling themselves as the cheapest. Soon all the workers were accredited, and competing on a global scale, which in turn changed the face of IT services in India, which became a leading force.   (19:20) THE FUTURE OF CAREERS IN I.T We need to do better in terms of failure rates when it comes to IT projects, which often leaves our clients disappointed. By adopting engineering principles, we can increase our agility and reduce the failure rate to rubble. It’ll take time, but it is incredibly exciting.   (22:42) THE REVEAL What first attracted you to a career in I.T.? – Being a typical nerd, Tom was attracted to IT because of the technical challenges and opportunities. What’s the best career advice you received? – No matter where you are career-wise, study. Keep on educating and training yourself. What’s the worst career advice you received? – What would you do if you started your career now? – Invest in learning basic skills, hone them in practice, and be more open and alert to the prospect of radical change. What are your current career objectives? – To ensure that all the lessons learned during his long and varied career, can be taught and disseminated to the next generation. What’s your number one non-technical skill? – Quantification – the ability to quantify any critical variable, and any other value. How do you keep your own career energized? – Always make sure you’re having fun and doing the things you love. What do you do away from technology? – Tom is an avid reader on all subjects, and tries to read around 35 books per year, as well as studying and absorbing history on television.   (42:11) FINAL CAREER TIP Select the guiding books you read very carefully. There are far too many IT books out there, containing poor advice. You can filter out the not-so-helpful ones by looking for authors who use case studies and proven data that resulted in successful outcomes.   BEST MOMENTS  (4:44) – Tom- “I would use a combination of persistence and intelligence and creativity, and I would solve the problem that nobody else could solve” (7:58) – Tom - “Where others give up and say “It can’t be done”, say “Well that sounds like an interesting challenge”” (17:53) – Tom - “I was able, with simple observation, to participate in building up the whole Indian IT economy” (22:33) – Tom - “There are still this 95% of people who persist in treating a large IT system as though it’s a programming problem” (33:38) – Tom - “You need people and books to help ideas survive”   ABOUT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil Burgess is an independent IT consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping organizations to design, develop, and implement software solutions.  Phil has always had an interest in helping others to develop and advance their careers.  And in 2017 Phil started the I.T. Career Energizer podcast to try to help as many people as possible to learn from the career advice and experiences of those that have been, and still are, on that same career journey.   CONTACT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/philtechcareer LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/philburgess Facebook: https://facebook.com/philtechcareer Instagram: https://instagram.com/philtechcareer Website: https://itcareerenergizer.com/contact   Phil is also reachable by email at phil@itcareerenergizer.com and via the podcast’s website, https://itcareerenergizer.com Join the I.T. Career Energizer Community on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ITCareerEnergizer   ABOUT THE GUEST – TOM GILB Tom Gilb is the author of ten books, and a specialist in requirements, design and project management. He has acted as keynote speaker at technical conferences around the world, and in 2012, wwas named an Honorary Fellow of the British Computer Society.   CONTACT THE GUEST – TOM GILB Tom Gilb can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/imtomgilb LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tomgilb Website: https://www.gilb.com

Are you one of those people who flop at webinar marketing? You try over and over and still fail to successfully hone in on your target audience or turn over potential clients? Today’s conversation will help you with that, I talk to a man who has written many great books on marketing and is a wiz at webinars! His name is Tom Poland. Hailing all the way from Australia, his expertise is so fine-tuned that when his instructions are followed to the T, it’s fail-safe. This is the Seven-Figure Webinar Strategy, buckle up for some marketing savagery! Takeaways: How to use free consultations to lock in potential clients via undeniable webinars.Get your target audience ready to rock and roll with fail-proof funnel marketing.What you need to do to give your clients a vision that puts them in a beneficial position. Value Bombs: “The thing is if you don't get the cover, right, and you don't get the title, right, you're not going to sell anything.” Tom “You have to give clients a vision, you have to make them think and see themselves in that position that you're creating.” Jeff “If people cannot get in your shoes or if they can't visualize themselves where you're at and where you've been, then you've lost.” Jeff Subscribe  Apple | Google | Spotify | Stitcher Segment Timestamps/ Episode Highlights: [01:04] Jeff introduces Tom Poland [04:59] The biggest reason why people don't do webinars. [11:08] The eight objectives you want to achieve when people attend your webinar. [16:50] How to avoid the B.S. and give your target audience what they need to hear and see to become clients. [24:38] How to only meet with people who are well educated on your business before they become clients.  [30:13] The absolute worst thing you can do to a client!  [34:04] The incredible belief will continue to make you lose money. Savage Marketer Resources Follow our guest Tom Poland on Linkedin!Join our Community for updates. Check out more savage marketer podcasts Here!

In this episode, Micheal, Tom and Emil take on some common worries that friends and family have when you tell them that you are considering taking up remote real estate investing and provide solid arguments for reasoned responses.  --- Transcript   Michael: Hey, everyone. Welcome to another episode of their motor real estate investor. I'm Michael album, and today as usual, I'm joined by Tom Schneider and Emil Shour. In today's episode, we're going to be talking about kind of an interesting topic. Do those around you, not support your remote real estate investing dreams. We're going to be giving everyone today some tips, tricks, and fodder about how to speak intelligently about remote real estate investing. So let's jump into it.   Theme Song   Michael: Alright guys, before we get into this episode, I just wanted to check in with you all, how are you guys doing? There's some new quarantine issues that just came out from the governor and wanted to check in how you guys are doing.   Emil: Welp. Can't go surfing this weekend because LA beaches are locked down.   Michael: Oh no!   Emil: So that's unfortunate, but I got out there this morning in anticipation of not being able to,   Michael: How was it ?   Emil: It was crowded a little bit slow, but it was fun. You know? It's good. Anytime you start the day out on the water.   Michael: Yeah, absolutely.   Tom: Is a bad day on the surf. Better than a good day, not on the surf guys.   Michael: Yes!   Emil: Of course. Michael would say yes, because he's the eternal optimist, I would say. Yes. There's times. I get really frustrated. Sometimes I get out of the water and I'm like, damn it. And I'm just like huffing and puffing on my way to my car and just like, but yes, in hindsight, it's always like, at least I got out on the water and did something fun   Michael: Without being too cliche. I think every time I get into the water, I'm able to think about stuff and I go in with problems and come up with solutions. Even if it's not a great day, it's way more fun. If it is a great day, given the choice between the two, I would absolutely choose better day, but I don't think I've ever had a bad day out in the water   Emil: Hashtag no bad days.   Michael: That's right.   Tom: What I've been doing lately is our community pool… I live in this neighborhood that used to be part of an HOA and there are still some of the HOA amenities, but now it's just like people have the option to join. And I joined cause it's like a really cool feature, but they have really, they need a monitor at the pool just to make sure that people are not bringing in guests and they limit the number of people and a bunch of other County related restrictions. But anyways, so I've been doing that and I've been working from down there. There's really good wifi. I'm out in the sunshine. I've been having some of my meetings with my background, with Emil, Michael and Pierre, where there's like, you know, a pool in the background and every, you know, couple of hours instead of going on a walk, I'll do a Cannonball and a that's the latest little update. And it's been a really, I don't know, I think there's something about being outside and being creative and that feeds into that. So that's been my, my new thing work from pool.   Michael: I'm curious to know what the HOA, you know, if they just everyone mutinied like, no more HOA!   Tom: Right. I think it fell apart. I think in like the seventies or eighties, I gotta, I gotta get to the bottom of it, but uh, yeah, really just random, big pool. Um, I don't know. Yeah. It's cool.   Michael: Killer. That's awesome.   Emil: How about you, Michael? What's new in your world?   Michael: Um, not a whole lot. I've been staying up quarantining at the in-laws and just kind of hanging out in here. It's been hot as ever like the surface of the sun. They lived just outside Sacramento, so it gets really, really hot up here, but we've been playing a lot of tennis, which has been really nice, cause there's nobody on the tennis courts. Cause it's so hot. And I think people drive by and like what a bunch of schmucks, like who's playing tennis, it's a hundred degrees outside. So it's, it's been a lot of fun to just get out and sweat and be outside.   Emil: Nice man.   Tom: Pierre with so many hobbies. I'd love to hear. I think you might mentioned getting in some woodworking again.   Pierre: Yeah. Yeah. I moved into a new place in Alameda and needed some furniture to fit my record collection in this little nook that we have. So I built like a little mid century modern table with some cubbies, for my records and a rack to hang my guitars.   Tom: That's a fantastic quarantine hobby and practical!   Emil: I give up, Pierre's just the coolest out of all of us. Let's just,   Michael: Oh, it's not even, yeah, it's not even close.   Pierre: Now. I got the edge though. I want to build all my furniture. We were looking at buying some online but now it's not seeming as attractive.   Michael: You can build a better.   Tom: I love it.   Emil: Awesome. And for anyone who's new to the show, wondering who that voice was. That is our producer Pierre.     Michael: All right, guys. So I want to break down some of the very common aversions to remote real estate investing and then talk through some of the counterpoints to each of those. I think any real estate investor at some point in their investing career has likely come up against some aversion or caught some flack. So I want to talk about the first one that I think might be one of the most common ones. And that is how could I possibly ever invest in real estate remotely? I don't know anybody in inter X market here. Tom, do you want to take a shot at this one? And then, you know how you would respond to someone who's throwing this at you?   Tom: Yeah, totally. And what a relevant first topic for the remote real estate investor. So I think a common misconception about real estate investing is that it, you are a lone wolf in and out doing on your own. And that is so far from the truth, especially, uh, as a remote investor. So what I would say for this is you should invest as a lot of time in building your team just because you are not in the region, you're specifically your local property manager. That's really going to be a key key point of being able to do this remotely. So a way to, you know, go about that is have a very thorough vetting process of identifying, sourcing and vetting your local property manager. And one of the great things that Roofstock does is when we open a market, what we'll do is we'll find from word of mouth and looking it up online, the top 20 local property managers. And from there we'll do phone interviews. And from there, we'll cut more down to where we have about five of them. And then we'll go into the office and visit them, get their standard operating procedures, get their, a copy of their lease that they use, get all of these different and then say, okay, yup. These are good guys that we would recommend. Now me as an investor, if there's a company that's doing that, that's great. That gives me a head start, but I will still take the time to vet them myself. One of the aspects we have within Roofstock Academy is some pretty thorough interview templates for talking to property managers and identifying good ones. But to combat that is you have a really thorough process of building your team local there on the ground. So, you know, once you have identified that property manager that is going to be your remote eyes and ears is really not that different than doing any kind of local investing. Once you have that trusting partner   Michael: And Tom breaking down that big rock into an even smaller bite sized rock, how do you go about finding these people? If you're not investing through Roofstock and they are not doing it for you, what's the actionable step that people can go take to go meet or start talking to these folks.   Tom: I always put an extra points on referral from people that I trust and know. So I'd say if you can get referrals that way from either lenders or other investors, you know, that's a great place to start, but you should expect what you inspect. So you need to go in and expect it in, inspect it to now that is a mouthful.   Michael: That's a tough one to say.   Tom: Yeah, yeah. We use that saying a bunch of our, the last company that I worked at, but the gist is if you don't do the work to verify, you should expect that it's not going to be that awesome. So you need to put in a little bit of the work of talking to these partners. So I digress a little, I guess let's see. I'm going back to your question. What was your question?   Michael: It was how can someone go find these people?   Tom: How can they find people? So, okay. References number one, number two, don't shy away from looking on the internet of just searching the city of who are the major property managers. And you know, this, isn't making the decision on who you're picking. This is just building that initial list to widdle down with conversations on the phone and potentially in house visits to make sure that it's all buttoned up and such. But I'd say again, your greatest resource would be getting referrals. Bigger pockets, I think on their forums have some references of some potential local property managers, but I would definitely expect what you inspect. So make a point of doing that. Like work.   Emil: One of the thing, I want to point out with this one, cause I remember getting this one a lot. When I first started investing, you know, people would be like, you're going to invest where across the country, like that's insane. What if something happens to the property? What if it gets vandalized? What if this and that? And the thing is, is those things happen, whether you're local or you're investing remotely, right? It's not like if you live 15 minutes away from the property, things aren't going to happen. Things are still going to come up no matter where you invest again, it's just making sure you have a partner. And that's why we keep talking about this property manager. Who's invested, who cares and who is a good member of your team. That's one of the big things we're going to be talking about is, you know, you hear a lot of real estate investors say you have to build a team. This is a team thing, especially if you're investing remotely. So that's the big thing is things will still happen. It's just a matter of getting the right partners to help you handle all these things.   Michael: You guys nailed it. I have nothing to add. The one thing I would add is that it really forces you, which I see it as a pro. Some people might see it as a con, but it forces you to get really good at time management. Because then they'll just like you said, stuff's going to happen. Whether it's next door or whether it's across the country. So if it's across the country, you've got to rely on people to take care of that. You've got to have set the systems up and placed on, like you were saying, to be able to have that dealt with without you needing to become involved. So if it's next door, you're going to be tempted to go fix it yourself or go deal with it yourself. But if it's across country, you physically can't. So being really good at time management and task delegation is I see it as a big pro.   Tom: I guess one last thing I'll say is, you know, ideally the home that you own and you're renting out is close to you, but there are so many benefits to investing remotely. Like you have access to so many more properties, so many different types of returns, such different like economies, like that makes it a little bit of barrier to entry is doing that extra homework of finding that great partner. So for me, being able to access these cash, flowing properties all over the US that extra work of finding the good property manager and then vetting them and building that relationship is worth it.   Michael: Yeah. And to that point, I mean, what's the alternative here, not investing or not investing remotely. And if you're in a really expensive market, you might not ever be able to break through. So if it's invest remotely and learn a bunch of stuff or not, I'd say you can't afford to not learn how to do some of this stuff.   Tom: Word.   Michael: Okay. So let's move on to the next one. Uh, so many times I hear people say this, I know someone who tried to investing in real estate and they would take these midnight calls, fixed toilets. I don't want to do that. Why would you ever want to do that? Emil, you wanna run with this one?   Emil: Yes. So this is another common one, right? So people say, okay, I get why you want to invest remotely, but are you going to handle fixes? What if someone calls you? And again, this goes back to what we were just talking about. It's this is why you hire third party, property manager, again, building the team, right? I would say the property manager is one of the most important pieces of your team. And the thing here is I don't know how to fix most problems, right? I would call a handyman or whatever anyway. Right? So the property manager is just, they're just your barrier. They're taking in those calls and they're finding a local specialist. Again, you're not going to be good at everything in your business. What you want to do is hire the professionals who are in the property. Management is the best that operating your property.  I would probably do a much worse job and I'd spend way more time than a property manager who does this for a living. So the rebuttal to that question is while I'm going to hire a third party property manager, who's an expert in the area. Who's going to manage it for me. And in return, they take a certain percentage of my rent each month. The other thing is the important thing here is this frees up a lot of your time, right? If you're constantly dealing with your operational stuff, you're not going to be thinking about how can I grow this? How can I scale it? A lot of us who are doing this, we have full time jobs, right? Like instead of fixing things on the weekend, I could be thinking about how can I start a side gig, earn more money or whatever. So I can go buy more properties, which I would argue is more important than handling the day to day stuff.   Michael: It's so interesting. I think people in the day to day world in life can really wrap their head around hiring professionals to do things, right. Nobody says, I'm not going to go buy a car because I don't know how to fix it. No, we all take it to the mechanic. I think it's the same thing with real estate and with investing where people are. So whatever reason can't get their head around that you might not have to do that, that kind of stuff. There are professionals that will take care of it for you.   Tom: Right. It's such a great point. I, I love that, your, uh, isms, Michael isms. I think we'll say, I think in talking to a lot of people who are interested in investing in real estate locally, they're like, yeah, then I can go and I can run out and paint the house when, or do these things that happened. It's like, no, you don't have to do that. And you know, we were talking about these costs that you incur with either repairs or maintenance or paying your property manager, but those are good costs to pay. And also at the end of the day, it's going to help you on your tax basis. It, you know, there's just so many tailwinds in doing this.   Emil: One last thing I want to add here is you can always later down the road, maybe you're ready to retire, right? Maybe you have X amount of properties. You have enough cashflow coming in. You want to retire. Maybe at that point, you feel confident enough where you do want to self manage. If you go back to episode five that we did with Chris Bennett, he talks about how he self his properties from thousands of miles away. I personally probably won't get to that point. I'd rather let somebody else deal with it. But it's always one of those things where I think you can even just observe your property manager for years, learn how they kind of run everything. And then if you want to down the road, you can switch back or switch to self managing. If that's interesting to you.   Michael: Funny, I think the longer I invest, the less I want new self-manage. I realize how much goes into like yeah, no way.   Emil: Yeah, same. I had somebody who I was talking about. Who's looking to buy a property on Roofstock and they were asking me the same thing. It's like, should I self man? He's like, I'm actually thinking about self managing first, just to like, get an idea of how all these things work and then handing it over a property manager. And I was like, if anything, I would do the complete reverse for all the reasons I just mentioned. Like, dude, you're brand new. Don't don't do it. It's going to be a nightmare. And you're never going to want to invest in another property again. Promise   Tom: That's the Emil Shour guarantee.   Michael: Awesome. Okay. So the next one I want to touch on is something I'm sure we've all heard a lot about, and it's that real estate is such a risky investment. Look at what happened in 2008. And so I'll take this one. If you guys don't mind, you know, my response is you're spot on don't invest. No, just kidding. I would say, you know, 2008 was the direct result of poor lending practices and those have definitely since changed. And so I don't anticipate seeing a financial disaster as a direct result of poor lending practices again. Don't misinterpret that as me having a crystal ball, that's just my personal opinion and be very may well see a financial disaster from other, but the poor lending practices seems to have gotten cinched up pretty tight. So I would actually argue that real estate is often a safer investment than the stock or the bond market.  And I think so often people say, okay, real estate is risky, but these other things aren't, there is also people that say real estate is risky, put your money in the bank. And to that, there's all kinds of counter arguments and counterpoints that are all based in fact about inflation and how you actually lose money. If it's just sitting in the bank, if you're not earning at least the inflation return, but so in looking at growth, the comparison to simply stocks, bonds, and real estate. So with real estate, there's just such a higher degree of control. The tax benefits and potential returns are typically going to be better than your average year in the stock market. I think it's pretty well accepted that stock market returns average between six to 8% in any given year real estate, you can do significantly better with that from a pure cash on cash return perspective that doesn't even account for the tax benefits associated with it, as well as the appreciation and loan pay-down equity that you're essentially buying into your property. So I personally I'm drinking the Koolaid. I think there are tons and tons and tons of facts and figures that you can throw at someone that's saying, Oh, it's such a risky investment. My guess is that they probably haven't invested in real estate. And if they have, they aren't looking to do the same type of thing you're doing remote investing with a property manager. So I just want to make sure that everyone's comparing apples to apples. Whenever they're hit with something like this, you really want to understand what's being talked about.   Tom: That's great and a good overview of like all the benefits of why, at least in our opinion, like the benefits outweigh the rewards. And what I love about drinking the Koolaid is there's so many different flavors of the Koolaid. So I kind of switch off on which one I'm most excited about. So the tax advantages is great. The immediate cashflow is great. The appreciation is incredible, but the Koolaid I've been sipping a little bit more of is the loan pay-down aspect. And it's just crazy. You can borrow like a hundred thousand dollars and someone else will pay it off for you. Like, I don't know, like wording it that way is really kind of mind boggling of how incredible investing is. So even if you're not cash flowing, say your cashflow is zero, but you still have a loan on the property. And you're not paying that loan. The person who was renting the property has paint alone. It's like obscene right property after you get a free property. So anyways, just kind of in your, going through your ran, I was just thinking of what is currently spinning through my mind a little bit heavier on like, wow, it's unbelievable. How much of an opportunity is. So anyways,   Michael: I thought you were gonna say that you're really excited about sour green, Apple Kool-Aid flavor.   Tom: That might be the loan pay-down is the sour green Apple.   Emil: Oh man. Kool-Aid when you're a kid and   Michael: The best, the best. How do you guys feel about Hawaiian punch?   Tom: I think American tastes have gotten a little bit less sweeter. At least I could rant on this for a little bit, but I'll finish it. There's been a shift in American culture kind of going to more subtle. Like if you look at like Hintwater LaCroix, if you compare like the drinks that are consumed today, versus the drinks that were consumed like 10 years ago, it's like hummingbird water back then. So I think I have a feeling if you had some Hawaiian punch, like you would be like, what the heck is, this is this like, meant for like a hive of, of hummingbirds, like anyways,   Michael: And it's that bright red too!   Tom: But the great thing about Koolaid is you don't have to put all the powder in. You can make it culturally adjustable by just putting a little bit of it in and boom, welcome to 2020, just 10% of it and have it. All right, go ahead.   Emil: I don't know how I can follow that up with something serious, but just to finish this section, I remember we had this blog post on the Roofstock blog talking about how did single family rental returns compared to stocks and bonds. And the Roofstock team did a little study. It was from 1992 to 2017. So a 25 year period. And if we found that single family rental returns were nearly identical to stock returns and the outperformed bonds with far less volatility. So that was one other thing I wanted to highlight here as well. Plus all the other benefits, like we talk about like tax advantages and all that, which I don't think was factored into this study.   Tom: I'm almost sure it wasn't.   Michael: Yeah, that makes sense. Because everyone's going to have a different tax basis.   Emil: Yeah. This was just looking at returns.   Michael: Okay, cool. So one of the last ones I want to touch on which we can all kind of tag team, but I kind of want to give it to Tom to give him a runway to rant. But so many people I've heard say owning real estate makes you a greedy landlord getting rich off the backs of other people. Tom, what would you say to all those people?   Tom: I think that people need safe housing, people need housing, and this is just kind of part of the wheel of providing that. So like I think above all, and we've talked about this before an earlier episode, like at the end of the day, it's about like habitable safe places for people to live. And I think as an owner, that's like a key part of the responsibility, so sure. Their incomes earned. It's like a little business that you own with every single one of the houses. But at the end of the day, like at this, we're talking about people's where they live and being able to provide that is valuable.   Emil: I think anyone who kind of believes this, I think you should a hundred percent become an owner because then you'll have a better idea of both sides of the coin. Right. You'll have owned, you'll have rented, I've rented, I've owned. I think having been in that spot right where you're a renter and you know, you've dealt with a landlord. I think it makes you more empathetic to your tenants. Like I want to provide a safe habitable unit, like Tom mentioned for those reasons. Like, if you're, if you're a good person, you care about other people, it's not like you're going to become an owner and all of a sudden just be like terrible person not providing for them. So I actually just, if you believe that, I think you should become an owner and just have experienced on both sides personally.   Pierre: As a renter, I have to say that it's way better to have a cool landlord.   Michael: Yeah. It's way better renting experience to have a cool landlord. Someone that's a real person as opposed to just a machine.   Tom: Yeah. And I don't, it has to be so black and white at that. Like you're only trying to maximize your return at every single look. I think there's a lot of places where that makes sense, but there's this humanity aspect. So one of my tenants, you know, started just recently had some issues around payment on like an employment and stuff. And you know, I talked to the, reached out to the property manager and said, Hey, you know, is this, is this something, you know, that has to do with the virus or they cause I'm very open to helping them out. Like if we need to make some adjustments or some concessions, you know, as an owner in real estate, you don't have to put on the monopoly outfit and just, you know, drill people into the ground, like, like half a conscious, like this is a good business to build wealth, but it's multidimensional, right? Because you're owning a place where somebody's living at. I think that's a really important aspect to have some humanity as an investor. So it's not, you have to go down this one path, right. You can do business consciously.   Michael: Yeah. And to anybody out there that thinks this or anybody out there that you know, is, is catching this type of comment from other people, I'd say, look, you need to understand what actually goes into real estate investing and real estate investors pay tons of money every single year to local school districts in the form of property taxes. So I'm not sure how that makes them greedy, but I would also follow that up with asking them how much money they contribute every year to their local school districts and see what they say. So there's so much money that gets poured into the local economy via real estate investors. And that comes in the form of real estate taxes, property management fees, paying local vendors for goods and services. So, so many investors spend a ton of money on these properties and local neighborhoods that actually are making them more attractive and welcoming, which can often lead to safer communities. So it's so easy for someone to just see one side of the coin and say, Oh, you you're collecting rents. You're making money off this person. Well, yeah, but also there's the other side where I'm contributing to society, paying taxes and making the schools better. So if you want me to stop doing that, that's a different conversation, but you really have to understand both sides of that coin to have an intelligible conversation about it.   Emil: Bravo, sir, drop the mic, please.   Michael: Mic drop it and walk away from that person. And just kind of in this same vein, I would also encourage anyone who comes up against any kind of resistance to really try to have a discussion with that other person about why they feel the way that they do. And try to understand why what they're talking about may or may not be applicable to your personal situation. Because I think real estate investing is this huge, huge topic. On the podcast, we talk about the remote real estate investing, which is one kind of niche of that, but there's so many other different topics and variances on real estate investing. So a lot of people here real estate investments like, ah, they're evil, they're the worst people in the world. Well, okay. Yeah. There might be some that are evil. It might be some of the worst people in the world, but you don't know me necessarily. And so let's try to understand what you're talking about and what I'm talking about. Cause so often they're not all the same thing.   Emil: I like that well said.   Michael: So just curious. I mean, have you guys ever run into any type of these comments? Have you gotten any flack for, you know, doing something that's maybe perceived as different from what your peers or others were doing? Emil: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I've mentioned on other episodes. My dad is a real estate investor here locally in Los Angeles and he thinks, you know, I'm kind of crazy. It's still, uh, when I was first starting, especially like what you're gonna buy property, where again, and it's common for people to feel that way because traditionally, everyone felt like, you know, my dad's whole thing is like, if I can't see it, touch it, feel it, there is no way. And that's fine. I think for some people, it just doesn't work mentally as just a blocker. But like Michael said, I think it's about being open to different things. And again, if the option is, do nothing or invest somewhere else to me, I'm not going to let that stop me personally.   Tom: Yeah. I think so many people have preconceived notion of what it means to be a real estate investors. And they have this idea of them running out with a hammer and taking the call and it's like, no, it's different than that. It's way more passive. It is way more team-driven, which has kind of been a theme of this episode. So throw away or assumptions on what it looks like and, and come to Roofstock Academy. No, but throw away your assumptions on what it looks like and look at some of these different strategies that we're talking about. If you're looking to do it in a more passive way and not throwing so much of your time of trying to make it work. The other comment that I've heard from some friends is, and this goes again, I think the greedy landlord piece is, you know, someone teasing, I was talking about real estate investment, like, Oh yeah. Always money and being a slum-lord. I'm like, you know, get outta here. Like I think, as I said, like there's a wellbeing aspect and like having these safe habitable places and working with your property manager to make sure that's part of your brand at the properties that you have, you know, it's, it's not about cutting corners and like maximizing every dollar. There's so much more to that.   Michael: Yeah. I totally agree.   Tom: And several of my friends have now invested, so I, uh, won the day. So go ahead.   Emil: And that was the point I was just about to make is I think when you network with other remote real estate investors and you realize there is an ecosystem of us doing it, it makes you feel a lot more confident. So if you don't know anyone else who's doing it, I highly recommend getting in touch with somebody network with them, talk, join groups, join, whatever. Just say, like build that network. I think it's, it's invaluable to have people around you who are doing things similar to you.   Michael: Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I first started investing, like you both, I caught so much of that flak of you're going where to invest, you know, why, what, that's stupid, you're there. You're crazy. And I'm like, yeah, well it makes sense to me. So, and now most of those friends I haven't since invested to, Oh, they see what's going on here. But yeah, so much of it too was I felt like this lone wolf, I didn't know there was a community out there. I didn't know the other people doing this. I just heard, yeah. People invest in real estate, but I didn't happen to know very many of them to ask them, you know, am I crazy? Is this insane? But now I realize no I'm laughing all the way to the bank. All right guys, any final thoughts on this stuff?   Pierre: I have a question in this vein of remote versus local investing. When would it make more investment sense to invest in your local market as opposed to remotely, if you live in an expensive area?   Michael: Super good question. I'll let you guys take it first.   Tom: I'll take the first stab at it. So excellent question Pierre of, when does it make sense to invest locally versus is remote. And I think it all has to start at what is your investment thesis? Like? What is your end game map? If I live in an area where I don't necessarily need the cashflow right now, and I'm pretty bullish on appreciation, I live in Northern California where properties are a little more expensive. Maybe it does make sense to invest in a property out here locally. If I'm looking for a property where there's a little bit more of a blend of appreciation and a bit more immediate cashflow, then maybe it would make sense to invest remotely. And to kind of get us to rephrase a little bit is, you know, what kind of returns are you looking for? Like if I had to make this analogous and that's right to like the stock market, like, am I investing in a growth company or am I investing in a new startup, but am I setting a value investing? Like what kind of strategy? And I think that will answer the question on where you're doing your investing at.   Emil: The only other thing I would add there is I think comes down to your comfort level. If you just can't for whatever reason, get yourself to invest remotely. I don't think you should just not invest. I think if you can invest locally, go for it, right. If you just can't get over the remote factor and you know, like you could be making better returns elsewhere. The thing is, is there's people investing locally doing insanely well and there's people investing remotely doing insanely well, I don't think this is a, you have to go local. You have to go remote. I think it's just by your comfort level, how much money you have to invest, you know, just your strategy and that your thesis, like Tom mentioned   Tom: Price point, great point. And also the volume of homes available. I mean, you're limited just in your own backyard of how many homes are for sale. Go ahead, Michael. I see you.   Michael: Yeah. I see you too buddy.   Tom: The light in me sees the light in you!   Pierre: Namaste!   Tom: Namaste   Michael: You know, from avatar, we need to hook up our ponytails.   Tom: Yeah. I'm touching the microphone.   Michael: So the last, I think those are both really great points. The last thing I want to add too it, is what the goal is and what are you trying to accomplish? But one thing I don't think that it has mentioned is the idea of house hacking, which is kind of this concept of you buy a house bigger than you need or a place bigger than you need and you live in it and rent out the other room. So you're kind of getting the best of both worlds and a kind of hybrid approach with, I have a place to live now and I'm making some rental income alongside with that. And so if you do that well enough, you could absolutely see similar returns to a traditional investment property at distance, but get the benefit of living in a house locally. And so what I think is really important to look at as the true opportunity cost and true total cost, because if you're investing somewhere else and continuing to rent while there's a cost associated with that, versus if you buy a house hack locally and are living in it, well, there's a different cost associated with that, but you're not paying rent anymore. So look at the whole picture. And I think just like Tom mentioned, you know, look define what your goal is. So I think I ha how's hacking is a really, really great way to get started in real estate investing and kind of get two birds with one stone and then just like Emil said, what the price point is and what your, you know, you're only going to qualify for X amount of dollars in a loan if you're going that route. And so that's going to be a limiting factor as well.   Pierre: What about buying from a family member would buying from a parent, make it more interesting in the way of tax benefits or anything like that?   Tom: I mean, a huge way to get ahead in real estate is any kind of discount to valuation. So like if there's any kind of sweetheart deal with that, I mean, you don't want to take advantage of your parents, but like if they're like open to giving you a little bit of a discount, like, man, that could be an immediate, huge head start because you already have like a little bit of equity in the house where some of the tools that we talked about pulling out equity, like cash out refi or HELOCS or all of that stuff like that can give you an advantage there in just the question of like, let's say you're paying fair market value. It really depends on if that house fits your investment thesis. So looking at the type of returns that you would get, then if it fits that then great. That makes sense. I'd say just kind of like specific to your question around family members. Like if you're able to get a little bit of, maybe it's not sweat equity, it's love equity. That's a huge step up.   Michael: One other thing too, that I've seen here that works really well. Especially if the house is owned free and clear is your family can finance it for you basically be the bank and you pay them a monthly payment as opposed to getting a mortgage. You can just get, you know, you guys decide what the terms are amongst yourselves. And it's so much easier. The one thing that I definitely would encourage people to look out for and I harp on this literally every day in the Academy is property taxes and especially if it's in California, because I asked my attorney once I was like, what if I just sell this house to my wife for a dollar? Because my property tax base is X, what my property tax has dropped to a dollar. And she's like, yeah, no, that's not how it works. If it's, if it's priced way under market, they're going to assess it at the fair market value and tax you on the fair market value. So even if you're getting a discount on the purchase price, that's great. You just want to be aware of what the taxes are going to look like after the fact. And especially with a lot of these family properties, they've been in the family for so long, they were purchased at such a low tax rate. So being aware of the tax rate and what that's going to jump to is really important for sure. It's going to move in California, but you just want to be aware of it. If you're in another state doing this type of deal, just be, you know, find out what that tax rate looks like. But great questions, man.   Tom: I got one more for this. So in the theme of this episode of your friends being able to speak intelligently, when you're, when people try to talk you out of investing in real estate, why aren't you just buying somebody else's property? Isn't there like a reason they're selling it? Why, why, why, why   Michael: Is it trash?   Tom: Isn't it trash if somebody's selling it, it must be a bad deal or something wrong with it. Michael, would you like to lead this one?   Michael: Yeah, it's a super great point and a really great question. I think I hear all the time in the Academy. I mean, it's just goes back to one. Man's trash is another man's treasure, but also you're probably not buying trash. I mean, people sell for any number of reasons. So we'd never know a motivation unless we ask. And so often sellers are selling out of desperation, whether that's, you know, divorce or they need cash for something. So it could be a really great property, could be really great deal. They're just selling it because they need the cash. They could also be selling because they got a nonperforming assets to be performing. And now it's really great. And so we talk about that a lot is adding value. You buy a crummy property, you fix it up. And now it's a really nice property. I mean, that's what turnkey is. Someone is selling a perfectly functioning and performing asset. And so giving people an opportunity to buy it means that they get to make some profit in the middle. So I definitely definitely disagree with that wholeheartedly. I think that people need to understand that there are so many reasons why someone could be selling a property.   Emil: No, the only other one I would add is what we call a tired landlord. So someone who just been doing this for 30, 40 years, they're done right. They've maybe they've been managing it this whole time by themselves. And they're like, I'm just, I've made my money. My market has appreciated. I'm going to do well on the sell. I just want to get out of the business. So they're tired and they just want to move on. That's another one.   Michael: I love how you said that. They're just, they're just exhausted.   Emil: Just, just tired man. I could,   Pierre: Did you have your dad in mind when you're commenting on this?   Emil: My dad is such a, such a tired landlord. He's an exhausted landlord. He is. He is just like, pardon me. Thinks he loves complaining about being a landlord though. It's just like in him that he likes to compete. It gives him a discussion topic.   Tom: Yeah. My comments would be on this is concerns around, you know, why is the sellers have a process and the way that you evaluate the homes that is consistent. So once the property goes through the ringer where you're looking at, you know, condition value, tenant, if they're, it is occupied, all that stuff, you can really make the assessment. If it's a good or a bad deal. And don't overthink seller motivations, just like Michael said, there's going to be any number of reasons within Roofstock there's all kinds of different types of sellers. There are individuals, there are bigger institutions, there are funds and sometimes the funds just expire or sometimes they move, you know, the geographic concentration, they might move to a different market. So I wouldn't overthink it and just do your homework and follow the right steps and doing your evaluation of the property.   Michael: Okay. So now I've got a question for you guys kind of a fun one. And just so all of our listeners know, I didn't tell a meal pier and Tom, what the question was before we started recording this. So they are totally going to be blindsided by this. And it's a, it's a pretty traditional question. It's one that, you know, I think is asked pretty regularly of people, but I put a little bit of a spin kind of unique twist to it. So the question is you're stranded on a desert Island. There's the very typical question that I want to know the answer to of what two items would you sum into your location to help you escape to survive? But also I want to know where's the most ideal setting for said deserted Island,   Emil: Bali, a surf board, because the waves are going to be amazing deserted Island. I'm just, I don't even know if I'd want to leave. Honestly. I'm not trying to get out of there if I'm just stranded in Bali, no one around amazing waves.   Tom: Do you guys watch naked and afraid?   Michael: Yeah. It's so good.   Tom: What would your survivor score be?   Michael: Oh, I would start it probably a six and end at a 7/8. Oh, underdog performing. Sorry. I interrupted. Go ahead.   Emil: Alright, so I'd want to surf board item two…   Tom: Are we picking locations or picking what we're bringing with us? What's the situation?   Michael: Both! Emil: A laptop that has a never ending battery and access to internet.   Michael: No dude, we're not playing this “imagine if the best invention” game.   Emil: You did, you did not give me any rules, constraints. It's up to my imagination. Creativity.   Michael: All right. That's reasonable. And the first thing I would do is use said computer magical computer to get a ticket for my wife and daughter to come join me at the Island.   Tom: So, if you're going down, you're dragging them with you.   Emil: That's right. Tom, what would you, what would you bring and where would you be?   Tom: I think I'd be on the oldest Island of the Hawaiian islands. I'd be in Kauai just because it's, you know, lots of fish around there. I would bring some Kool-Aid from 2000 just cause I know it's diluted. I could just use a little bit. That's going to last me a very long time to match my 20, 20 taste buds. It would last a very long time and yeah, I think I would somehow finagle my wife and son to come join me too with that magic computer that I would borrow from Emil. So there we go. I got Kool-Aid and magic computer.   Michael: All right, Pierre, where are you stranded and what would you bring?   Pierre: Hmm, maybe somewhere in the Mediterranean, like Malta and I would bring a guitar and a hatchet.   Michael: Nice see. Pierre's the real survivor here.   Tom: Which guitar?   Pierre: I'd bring my acoustic. Probably my Taylor. Yeah, my guitar and a hatchet. Cause I forget what the saying is exactly, but it's with a pocket knife, you can survive, but with a hatchet you can live like a king. a nice I'd built some stuff for sure.   Michael: Nice.   Tom: You're already practicing. You're hurting right now. We go to peers does desert Maltin paradise and he's mid century. Nice couches beds built. Starts a popup shop.   Tom: You're turn Michael.   Michael: I would probably go to be in Bermuda because I hear some crazy stuff happens there. I'd be very curious to see what's going on. My two items would probably be a satellite phone so I could order all kinds of great stuff. And if I say anything other than hatchet, I'm looked like a chump. I think I should also bring a hatchet.   Tom: Your survival skill just went down. Your Pierre's survivors went down because you had advanced tools.   Michael: I could have brought a chop saw.   Tom: Yeah. You just went to a 5.5.   Michael: Oh, it's such a ridiculous show. Naked and Afraid. But it's so interesting to see what people bring I'm waiting for the day with two people bring the same thing. Like they both bring a lighter and like, Oh crap. Like we didn't talk about this beforehand.   Michael: Well, that was our show. Everybody. Thank you so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed it. Don't forget to give us a rating or review wherever it is. You listen to your podcasts, subscribe as well. And we look forward to seeing you on the next one.   Tom: Happy investing.   Emil: Happy investing.  

In this Episode Tom, Michael and Emil share their systems that take the headache out of acquisitions and ownership to effectively scale up.  --- Transcript:   Tom: Greetings and welcome to the remote real estate investor. My name is Tom Schneider, and I'm here with Emil Shour and Michael Albaum. And today we're going to be talking about something that is near and dear to my heart. We're talking about building systems. We're talking about automation. We're talking about scaling. We're going to touch on these topics and a couple of specific strategies as it relates to acquisitions and ownership. All right, let's do it.   Tom: All right. Welcome back to The Remote Real Estate Investor. Before we get going today, we're going to do a quick introduction from the host a little bit about ourselves and our experience and background and all that good stuff. So, Michael, why don't you go ahead and lead us off?   Michael: Sure. So I'm Michael Albaum. I used to work in my past life as a professional fire protection engineer in the commercial property insurance industry. So everyone has to bear with me if I speak in math terms, cause I'm a reformed engineer. I've been an investor for the better part of a decade and started very traditionally with single families. And now I've found a, found my stride and niche with multifamily value, add projects out in the Midwest. And I'm also the head coach of the Roofstock Academy program and meal. Can you introduce us to yourself and your mustache?   Emil: Hey everybody. My name is Emil Shour. I work on the marketing team here at Roofstock. My fun fact is I actually bought a couple properties through Roofstock before I was ever working here. It was a big fan of what the company was doing and now lucky enough to get to help spread the word. And I own a couple single family rentals across the Southeast and Midwest.   Tom: And my name is Tom Schneider. I am the director of investor education here at Roofstock. My career has been focusing on putting technology process to scale and build systems. So this episode is particularly exciting for me is how I do this personally, with my investing. I've been in real estate investing for over the past 10 years, and I'm also a California broker.   Michael: Nice.   Emil: The only one of us who's licensed. Where do you have your license hung somewhere as a broker?   Tom: You can just hang it right around here.   Michael: Yeah. Hang it on yourself.   Tom: Hang it on myself.   Michael: The broker test. Isn't so much more work than just the agent test, right?   Tom: It is. They've made it harder when I got my broker's license, it wasn't quite as difficult, but they made the experience requirements a lot more difficult. It was kind of funny. I initially worked in acquisitions for one of the publicly traded rates and literally the day that I passed the broker test, the person who was leading our technology says, Hey Tom, we need a can-do guy to help build out a bunch of systems. And I was like, okay, cool. Let's do it. So I got my broker's license and then proceeded to never use it until I did use it when I bought my own house. So I guess it paid for itself there.   Emil: What is the difference between an agent and a broker?   Tom: I'll tell you, I should kind of have an idea on this. So an agent needs their license to be hung underneath the broker. The idea is a broker understands the business a little more and folks who are agents can eventually become a broker. If they wish to, they basically can operate on their own. So within California, you can apply for an agent or a broker. And the broker aspect of the test is a little bit harder and the requirements to get it is a little bit more difficult.   Emil: Got it. So a broker can do everything an agent can do, but an agent can't do everything a broker can do.   Tom: Yes. Yes, that's correct. That's a good way to put it.   Michael: Getting ready for my broker tests.   Emil: Awesome. I've already learned something on this episode!   Tom: Early and often, baby early and often. All right. We'll jump into some system stuff. So we have a variety of different things and we're going to have a different one of the hosts take the lead in talking about. So we're going to start with acquisitions. And Emil, why don't you lead us off on some systems, some practical systems that folks can do on their own.   Emil: It might be a little obvious, but I still think it's worth stating. Set up automated filters and alerts on the places you look for properties. If you're on Roofstock. If you guys are familiar with stock is our marketplace where people can buy and sell single family rental properties. You can go and filter by whatever meets your criteria and save that filter. So you get notifications when new properties hit the site that meet that filter requirement, same thing on other sites like Zillow or Redfin or realtor.com, wherever you're, once you've figured out your buy box. And I'll talk about that in a second. Defining it, plugging it in as a filter so you get automatic notifications cause you want to be on top of those listings, right? When they hit the site, right? It's a lot more effective than just constantly going on them and checking your listings. Even though I do that all the time anyways,   Michael: I don't know about you guys, but I constantly get notifications from Zillow and Redfin about new properties that have hit the market, but I didn't save a filter even, you know, I searched there twice or three times and now I was like, Oh great. You're super hungry for properties in that market. So I'm just getting blasted by these emails. Yeah.   Emil: Every time I look@realtor.com, like I was curious the other day about like, what do multifamily in Bakersfield sell for? And now I've just, I've been getting Bakersfield filter notifications from realtor.com. It's like, man,   Tom: What's cool about these websites and the filters, a little pro tip is you can get really granular with your filters and set up multiple filters. So what I'll do is on my inbox that I have all set up multiple inboxes and I'll set up a filter within my I'm gonna, we're gonna do filters on filters. This is a very layered,   Michael: Filter-ception   Tom: Yeah. Very meta. So within my inbox, shout out Gmail, just kidding   Emil: @Gmail, let us know if you want to sponsor us.   Michael: Yeah. I've never heard of this Gmail, but this Tom Schneider guy talked about it.   Tom: Anywho, I set up like a master folder for like incoming property leads. Right. Then within that I'll set up additional folders for each different type of either region or property type. So as new listings that meet my criteria are hitting. I have them in a nice clean folder, so, Oh, great. A new Florida property. That's a duplex in this area and I have a special folder for that. What I'll also do is oftentimes timing can be pretty important and moving quickly, instead of setting up a filter that comes just once a week or once a month, since I have this infrastructure within my Google Gmail, shout out again, I'll have it actually doing real time. So I'm not getting pinged in my main inbox if I'm working on some other stuff, but I have a way to see immediately based on whatever that criteria it's hitting that inbox. So again, the super simple paraphrase, but this isn't that complicated. I have a bunch of different inboxes within my Gmail. And then within the, my buying platforms, I'll set up many filters and many alerts and many immediate alerts. So it'll hit right into my Gmail and I'll know at that time, all right, this one looks pretty good and I can move pretty quickly. And I don't have that issue of, Oh, Property. It's already pending. Like I'm not passively looking for it. It's proactively hitting me as soon as it hits the market and I can act and jumped on it. So that was my extra tidbit on that piece of mill,   Michael: That description Tom was amazing. It gave me such a visual of kind of how you operate. And it made me reflect about how I operate. And you, I'm picturing this nice, neat cubby with nice section organizers. And mind's like just a fricking melted pizza, but it's just crap everywhere. It's, I'm so jealous. I want to be like you and I grow up and have these systems, but in place, I love that.   Tom: That's why we make a great team, Michael. That's why we make great team   Michael: Coffee-man, and melted pizza.   Emil: Oh yeah. I'm not surprised Tom is like the most organized out of all of us internally. And I'm not surprised when it comes to acquisitions. You're equally as organized with the pick and choose you pick and choose. There's definitely lots of messages. So one thing, if you're going to one of the sites we mentioned, and you're not sure how you should set your criteria, just know that it's okay to start a little wider. And then as you've looked at more and more listings, I think you'll get better at defining your buy box. I know we talk about it a lot and we say, okay, build your buy box. And sometimes it's hard to just like, know what to choose. Right. I kind of started larger. For example, I chose a couple of different markets, couple of different properties, size, like a bigger property size.   Tom: I like it. You feel that you need to shoot with a sniper. I keep using these weapon analogies, but it's okay if you're not sure to start with like a broader spray and then work your way down as you refine what you're looking for. But I'd say it's better to keep it an open, an open range, and then, then shrink that down.   Michael: Nick it down.   Emil: Yup, exactly. And also because sometimes whoever uploaded the listing, sometimes they don't include that information. Right? So if you have like really, really specific defined criteria, you may miss something where whoever listed at the seller or the agent or whatever, just didn't submit that information. It doesn't hit the filter. I've noticed that on a couple of things.   Michael:   And just a pro tip for everybody listening to, if your budget is a hundred grand on the high end, set your filter up to one 20 to include properties that are listed above that because you might offer a 100K and get it. Versus if you set your filter criteria right at your end budget, you might never have seen those properties.   Emil: Yeah great tip, go like 10, 20% above what you are actually planning on spending.   Michael: It also gives you an idea of what the next tier of property looks like. So if you did want to ultimately spend more, no. What would that buy you?   Tom: One last piece of advice on building a bike box is to think about how many properties do you practically want to evaluate at a given time? And yeah, you can control this with your buybacks by how targeted it is. So if I have a lot of time and I want to look at a lot of product properties, I'm going to have a really wide buy box. If I don't have a lot of time right now to evaluate properties, I'm going to tighten my buybacks down a little bit. So one way to think about it is to work backwards about what your kind of capacity is for evaluating effectively.   Emil: It's also, I think when you're first starting out, I think it's okay to, again, to nail this point of going a little broader, I think with time and experience and having different property types, you'll start to get an idea of like, this is the exact property I want in this exact area.   Tom: Awesome. Michael, do you wanna jump on your next acquisition system?   Michael: Yeah, absolutely. So, so much of this, in addition to searching, can be done socially kind of quote unquote. And so just talking to everybody who's willing to listen and maybe even some of those who aren't, about what it is that you're looking for. So just in everyday conversations, talk to friends, family members, people in your network about what it is you're doing and what it is you're looking to do because so many eyes are going to be better than, than just one set. So if someone then comes across a property just in their everyday life and thinks, Oh, well, I remember Tom mentioning that he was kind of looking for something like this. That can be a great deal funnel for you as well. Property managers can also be a fantastic, fantastic source of deals for you, which is pretty automatic. You just tell them, Hey, this is what I'm looking for. You, you set your filter, so to speak with them and any property that comes across their radar. Oh, Hey. Yeah. I remember, you know, Emil, I kind of managed this property for him. And he's looking for something like this. It becomes so easy. And so automatic that it's one of those things you can just kind of say it and continue saying it and then forget it. There's not a whole lot of nurturing that has to be done with those types of things, other than some, you know, reminders. And don't be the person that, Hey, have you found any properties yet? Have you found any properties? Just put it out into the universe and just kind of let it, let it bake for a bit and see.   Tom: It's like The Secret. You guys remember that book?   Pierre: I'm still waiting for that check in the mail.   Tom: It's coming! Wasn't it The Secret and then The Answer as a followup or something.   Emil: Yeah.   Tom: Incredible. Incredible marketing.   Michael: I didn't read that one. What's The Secret about?   Pierre: It's the laws attraction.   Michael: Uh, okay. Okay.   Pierre: It's when you focus on something for long enough and eventually it comes to you, essentially.   Emil: That's right. You don't have to actually do anything. Just think about it every day. Hope for it every morning, but no action required. Just think about it.   Michael: Million dollars, Million dollars! So it's interesting. So for the Academy book club, we just did Think and Grow Rich. And I thought that, you know, that was such a great title by Napoleon Hill and we read it and I thought it was really awesome and talked about a lot of kind of high level things, mindset type stuff. And it was talked about very similar type stuff. And it was, it was interesting. They're all talking about, you know, if we stand around here and talk about blue cars, we'll probably go out and see a bunch more blue cars. And it's not so much that there are more blue cars on the road. It's just that now we're cognizant of that thing. It's kind of front of mind. So it appears more often for us.   Tom: Yeah. I love that example, Michael, cause not all systems are digital or not all systems are technology, but it's, it's leveraging the people side of your network of funneling in deals through that. So at the end of the day, like a lot of real estate is a people business and nurturing that and building a system that you want and funneling them in deals is excellent.   Michael: All the real estate meetups that I went to, um, pre COVID, they all talk about they'll usually start or end with the needs and wants section. So people talk about, okay, this is what I need or is it “have and wants”   Tom: Maybe it's a “give and a take”, I think I know what you are talking about.   Michael: Yeah. You announced to the group, what it is that you have to offer to the group and then what it is that you're looking for from the group or from in general, until people say I have money and I'm looking for a deal or whatever. And so it's that those are great opportunities as well. And so again, just kind of reiterating, put it out to the world, don't be embarrassed by it. Don't be shy about it. Just make it known what it is you're looking for. Cause it's tough to help people if they haven't told you what it is that they're looking for.   Tom: Awesome. Great example. All right. So I'll touch on the last acquisition related systems slash tip slash ways to scale. And this is a special perk that we have within Roofstock Academy is that members can actually export the listings on Roofstock into Excel. And whenever you can do things evaluating a lot of deals at once, like doing it in Excel, that's a great way to do it. So I guess that the main theme is, you know, try to batch processes together. And in this particular example of being able to download all the listings in Excel, batch that whole evaluation of the whole inventory, you know, in one run where, okay, I'm filtering down to these particular property types or, Oh, I'm filtering down for this particular return. So being able to, if you can get a spreadsheet of what you're evaluating or any kind of way, being able to batch it together, do it saves time.   Michael: And for anybody that's really intimidated by Excel because I know it can often seem very intimidating. There are some really great free courses on YouTube and there are also paid courses. If you want to get more in depth with it, about how to use Excel and maybe how to do some of that batch sorting because it's a really powerful tool. So I guess we're plugging Excel and Gmail in this episode.   Emil: Shout to Google and Microsoft!   Tom: Let's continue on. We're going to go into ownership now and Emil why don't you lead us off.   Emil: Cool. All right. So the first one we're gonna be talking about is cash flow automation. So the first thing I do and you guys let me know if you do this as well. I set up auto pay on all my mortgages. I don't want to think about, did I pay this mortgage? I have to mail a check. I auto pay everything just to make it super easy. Especially when you have multiple properties automating. It is like, step number one. You guys do that as well.   Michael: Yeah, definitely. Absolutely.   Tom: Do you also impound your insurance and property taxes when you pay your mortgage payment?   Emil: I do. I know a lot of people won't because they want that capital and would rather use it throughout the year versus giving it to your lender, to hold it to whatever you like to be able to use that capital. I just don't want to have to think about like, okay, I need to come up with X amount to pay my property tax and insurance. It's kind of like duping yourself into thinking you're richer than you are.   Michael: I don't, I don't use the impound accounts. I will, if they'll give me a better rate for the mortgage. And then as soon as the loan closes, I cancel the escrow account and just pay it myself.   Tom: Sneaky move Michael.   Michael: It's something I'm considering doing just from like a meal mentioned ease of operations. It's just one less thing to think about. So it can be great either way.   Emil: Why do you not impound it?   Michael: For the exact reason you mentioned there are significant funds that are going to be paid to property taxes and insurance on an annual basis. And so I'd rather have that kind of, well, that one time hit is kind of a bummer. I'm able to use that cash. I mean, it's a significant amount such that it's usable on a monthly basis to do other stuff with. And so I just know in the back of my mind that, okay, come this time of year, I've got this big, big property tax bill that's going to be due.   Emil: Yeah. I wonder if there is something there in terms of like at a certain scale, it's a lot more money to be working with versus like, let's say you have one to five properties just for ease and it's not that much extra capital that you'd be able to do something with.   Michael: Yeah, no, that's a good point. I mean, I think everyone should think about it for themselves because even at that five property level, one to five, your property tax bill could be, you know, $25,000 if we're talking about.   Emil: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. Good point.   Tom: Just to clarify impounding your taxes insurance is if you haven't deduced this or don't already know this, it's when you pay your mortgage payment, the mortgage company will also collect a percentage of the annual taxes.   Michael: They'll take one 12th of the annual tax bill, one 12th of the annual insurance bill with your mortgage payment on a monthly basis. So that you're paying equal payments every month. You're not getting hit with your tax bill or insurance bill just at one time.   Tom: And then the mortgage company will just pay it for you. So you don't have to think about it. So, boom, that's another system. So that's a good question about, you know, do you use that money in the meantime, if you don't have to pay it for 12 months, but that could be another potential system. Alright. Emil, I broke your flow.   Emil: Finishing up there. My favorite thing is when they audit your account and you have an excess balance and they send you like a check for a couple of hundred bucks and you're like, Ooh, it's like a Christmas bonus or something. Hanukkah bonus baby. For me,   Tom: I think I might've mentioned this on another podcast. I like it, but it pisses me off. Cause I'm like, oh geez, what check am I missing? Yeah, it makes me think like, okay, this is great having this check. But I'm like, like honestly concerned that like I may have missed something in the mail because man, there's just so much junk mail as a real estate investor. The wholesalers that email you all kinds of things and like just general, getting a lot of mail. I just get really concerned that I see a check here. That's awesome. But what checks am I not seeing? Because they're buried in between a Serina and Lilly or whatever, a  catalog, that's like five pounds and 500 pages. Anyways, go ahead, please continue your answer.   Emil: No, please continue your rant. I want to hear that.   Tom: I got to build it up a little bit. I got to build it up a little bit.   Michael: Tell us more about what other junk mail you received.   Tom: We Buy Ugly Houses Houses. So many of those. Yeah. If there's any wholesalers listening, I want off your mailing lists.   Emil: Okay. So the next one, this one's probably obvious a lot of people, setting up ACH auto payment from your property manager. So they collect your rent checks. I don't even know if any property managers do this, but like sending you a check in the mail. I imagine most people already set up you raising your hand, Michael. Cause do you do that?   Michael: I used to get paper checks because my property manager was pretty old school and I said, okay, please, please, please, please, please, please, please. Can we do this and other way? Yeah, this is just not awesome anymore.   Emil: I mean, so that should be like, even part of your PM property management vetting, right? Like, do you do, do you have an online portal where you ACH payments to me? So just make sure you set that up. If it's an option, most property managers in 2020, you will have that.   Emil: Maybe Michael went to one that was established in 1925 or something.   Michael: 1833    Tom: Is this is the one in Alaska?   Michael: No, it's actually properties that I've since sold, but out in Missouri kind, of rural Missouri. And so just to expand upon this a little bit is I think we've talked about in another episode, but my property manager, there was only willing to use a certain bank or the local bank branch wasn't anything that we had locally or that I use. So they would go to this bank deposit, the rent check and then would cut me a check to my bank. It was just a whole pain in the butt kind of thing. So what we've automated is now they'll deposit the rent check and then those rent checks we'll get bill paid from that bank to my local bank where I actually do my banking and then from there and get distributed. And so if you can automate as many of those processes as possible, it becomes much easier. So ACH transfer a potentially from multiple bank accounts to multiple bank accounts,   Tom: Are you're hiding something Michael? I'm just kidding.   Michael: I don't know. You ever been to the Cayman islands?   Tom: That's interesting that a local property manager had a preferred bank that they worked with and yeah, yeah.   Michael: They're just like no Wells Fargo or B of A or union bank out there. So they're like, this is what we use. It's like cool, pony express it over to me.   Emil: Carrier pigeon that's right. So the last one in this section, we recommend I do this. I have a separate bank account for all real estate stuff. It just makes things easier, especially come tax time. I also just like having it separate cause I try to treat real estate investing like a business to have its own checking account checking account. I use Chase, it's free to set up another checking account and it's just much easier to track things going in and out and it'll make your CPA's life easier. Do you guys do that as well?   Michael: I was going to ask if you guys have separate accounts for every property?   Tom: You know, it's funny, I just got off a Roofstock Academy coaching session before we started recording this episode and we were just jumping into it with a member exactly on this topic. I don't, I use just one account for all properties. It's just, I don't know, easier. And I don't understand necessarily see the value. Not that it's a lot of overhead to have different bank accounts because you can set them up for free on so many different banks, but I just use one for all the rental properties and yourself, Michael,   Tom: I have one account per LLC. And so I've got LLCs that own multiple properties. So all that was kind of funnel into that one. Yeah. What about you, Emil?   Emil? I'm just one checking account where everything funnels into nice. Just for ease. Makes it easy.   Pierre: What would be one of the benefits of setting up an individual bank account for each property?   Tom: The benefit of setting up, if you were to set up a different bank account for each property, you know, what I like about it at a portfolio level is I just have a really tight grip on cashflow within that portfolio. If I was to do it at an individual property, man, it would be just so clear if I'm making money or losing money. You know, we have these assumptions that we use when we are acquiring properties, but ultimately, you know, when the rubber hits the road, you hope to hit those or even exceed them. But you know, by having an individual bank account for that property, you have a really immediate, transparent view into, is this property performing to how I was projecting it with the cashflow.   Michael: I was going to say, it's a really good question Pierre. I'm glad you asked it. So because I only have the one bank account set up, I think I'm echoing Tom's viewpoints and opinions that, yeah, it's very easy to see what the actual numbers are, but I found that I just keep an Excel file, very detailed document of, Hey, anytime there's an expense on a given property, I log it the date, the expense, and then the dollar amount. And so that for me, suffices as a very similar type of scenario without the headache, I would argue of having 10 different property accounts searching through which one has what I've got it all in a file for me, that's worked really, really well over the years.   Emil: And your property manager, a lot of them you'll have a portal where you'll be able to see all your rent, all the management fees they've taken, they handle a lot of the smaller maintenance. So you'll see those expenses as well. So you also have your property manager, you can lean on, that's going to keep track off a lot of this stuff. The only other thing to track outside of that would be your payments to your lender and then property taxes and insurance.   Michael: There's all kinds of miscellaneous stuff that you'll likely have to pay outside of that. So like business licenses, if you're required in that state or LLC fees, franchise tax fees in, you know, wherever you live and wherever it's registered, just misc miscellaneous stuff. And I just attach that to each property and whatever it's paid for, you know, even might have to pay a contractor, something if they're that's outside the scope of what your property manager is doing. And so having a place to document all of that, I find it to be very, very, helpful.   Emil: Yup. I also keep a detailed Excel. I don't do it every month. I do it like bi-annually.   Michael: Do you do it when you incur the expense or you do it as a reconciliation, every, you know, twice a year,   Emil: The latter I do reconciliation. It's probably not the best, but I don't know.   Pierre: Yeah. I mean, we're talking about automation,   Emil: We're telling you what to aim for. We're not necessarily saying we all do this all the time.   Michael: Do, as I say, not as I do.   Emil: Exactly. And you know, you don't have to be perfect in all these areas. We're giving people just different ideas, you know, what makes sense to automate.   Pierre: Cool   Michael: It's one of those too like, we all have bad habits that we've fallen into over the years. And now in hindsight, we'd say, man, I wish I had formed this better habit. So here's what I would do differently. And it's so hard to break those bad habits. Like it's so hard.   Tom: Getting the grove for sure.   Michael: Yup. Very true.   Emil: One other thing, we don't have it here, but I want to talk about it as well. This kind of goes back to acquisition automation, but, it goes back to the concept of paying yourself first. So a lot of us, you know, we have a full time job or we have W2, whatever it is, make sure you set up like an automatic percentage that every paycheck coming in is going towards your investing. So right now, like my process is 20% of every paycheck automatically gets taken out of my checking, put into a separate investing account. And I highly recommend people who are listening, check out a website called I will teach you to be rich by Ramit Satie he has this awesome guide. If you look up, I will teach you to be rich, personal finance guide. It shows you how to automate all this stuff, like having separate accounts for different things you're saving up for. I found that super easy and like a really good way to separate your money and like have kind of different categories and use them for separate things. So I have a separate investing savings account that automatically, you know, income coming in goes into that. So that's another automation thing I do.   Michael: Piggybacking off that a meal I've also automated paying myself first from the rental amount every month. So when we do our analyses, we see, okay, we've got the mortgage payment, property taxes, all these other expenses that may or may not actually occur on a monthly basis, but we modeled them that way. So it makes the cash flow easier to understand. And so your property is going to collect rent. They're going to take their fee and are going to give you the rest. Well, now that's a huge chunk of change, but we've still got to pay some of these other expenses. And so we all have calculated on a monthly basis what our cash flow should be. And so I will automatically set up that deduction amount from my property bank account, going to my personal bank account, if I'm planning on using that cashflow for everyday life stuff. So if it's a hundred bucks a month, I just receive rent on the 10th or whatever of the month. And then I automatically have a hundred dollars transfer into my personal account. Everything else stays in the property account to then pay all those other expenses for. And at the end of the year, you had a good year. You might have some extra dollars left over and you can pay yourself again. Or if you had a bad year, you might need to put some additional money back into that. But it's a really easy way to just start collecting money from your properties without overdoing it.   Tom: I like it. So the next operational system I'll jump on, has to do with documentation. So if you're an active investor, you will be regularly buying new properties. You will be regularly refinancing had a good episode, I guess it would be two weeks ago. Once this episode is launched on ways to take out equity, anywho, when you are going through that exercise, you're going to need the same documents again and again and again, you're going to need a copy of the current lease. You're gonna need a certificate of insurance. You're gonna need a sample mortgage payment. And what I like to do with this is to streamline this process is set up a folder structure that is secure. There's a couple of different platforms out there, Dropbox, maybe even Google drive, but you know, in a secure folder online, I'll have my relevant documents in there.And then I can use sharing functionality to give it specifically to my lender or specifically to my CPA. That way I'm not needing to constantly track down these documents that I'm going to need again and again and again, and I can safely share it with whoever needs it. So the main takeaway for this system, I guess you can call it that is, you know, don't sleep on it, just have that document structure set up a do it once and do it right and do it early and then have that available for whenever you go through one of these maneuvers, be it refinancing or taking on a new loan or going through tax time.   Michael: It's so valuable. I know for my first property, I didn't have these systems really set up in place. I thought I did and then came tax time and I was like, Oh my God. So this is going to take so long to figure this out and go back and collect all these things. So, you know, it's one of those things. It's tough to know what you're looking for until you know what to look for. So ask somebody, ask, you know, ask your CPA, ask your tax professional. Hey, I'm investing in real estate. What things you're going to need from you at the end of the year, they're going to tell you, okay, we need your 1098. We're gonna need all your expenses, property tax, receipts, all these types of things. So that way you can start that ahead of time developing and building these good habits and systems. It makes it so much easier. Come tax time.   Emil: I don't have anything else that neither does my mustache. Good job guys. Excellent.   Tom: I actually thought of this while you were talking about it. So I love the concept of paying yourself first, right? And with paying yourself first, when you get your paycheck, it's pretty straight forward, right? You take the first 10%, 20%, whatever, and either save it or spend it. However, I like to think about this with your day. So paying yourself first, the first 10% of your day, how are you guys going to pay yourself first with the first 10% of your day? And you're not allowed to say surfing,   Emil: I'll go one level up then and just say exercising. I think exercising for me has become as equally as important for my mental wellbeing for the day as it is physical. So for me, that's how I pay myself first to start the day, right?   Tom: What are you doing for exercise?   Michael: Surfing!   Emil: I wish more surfing. Having a small child will put a dent in your surfing ability and it's summer, so the waves were a little slower. I will do. I'll either go for a run or I will do a combination of like pushups pull ups. Or I also use this thing called the seven minute workout app. It's literally a seven minute workout. I don't do long workouts. I don't like, I don't know. I used to spend more time working out, but for me, it's just a matter of like doing it almost daily to just start the day right. Whether it's seven minutes or 30 minutes.   Michael: Classic Emil fashion, he stole my answer. But that's why I went first because you're going to try to take that out. So not surfing, but I like to do kite surfing and I also work out. Do you exercise in the morning? I find that getting my blood pumping helps kind of burn off that haziness in the morning. But since the meal took that already, I really liked journaling in the morning. Just even for a few minutes, a few paragraphs, just kind of what I'm thinking about. What's going on personally in my life and what my goals are. I read that book think and grow rich. And that reaffirm that journaling is a super powerful tool. I've always known it, but again, it's one of those bad habits that it's hard to break into if you're not used to doing it. So starting slow and just trying to get my thoughts out on paper outside of myself, I find it to be helpful and worthwhile. What about you Tom?   Tom: So the first 10% of my day has gotten a lot earlier with a small child. So, you know, it's, it's now like the, you know, late five's early 6:00 AM is the first 10% of my day, but excellent partnership with my wife helping out. Well, she has the lion's share for sure, but on the extra early days, all right. I'm digressing. Okay. Going on a walk. So, I mean, I guess this is exercise. Sure. Why not? So getting the baby early morning, throwing him in a little jogger or the stroller walking around the street in the morning when like everything's still quiet and the sun's just creeping up over the Hills and the fog is kind of lifting journal in my head. I dunno. So like walking around in the early morning when nothing else is going on, I know that's a fine first 10% of the day way to pay yourself first.   Michael: As the only person without a baby, just a PSA, you know, you probably shouldn't throw babies into or at anything whether it be a jogger or cribs.   Tom: Oh, they're, they're pretty durable, but yeah, for sure,   Emil: They are very durable.   Pierre: Antifragile.   Emil: Antifragile.   Tom: Antifragile! Yes, they get stronger with it. Yeah. How about yourself Pierre? Your first 10% of the day?   Pierre: I like to save my working out for the end of the day so I can have a break between my work day and the evening. So the morning is a good time for me to read.   Emil: I used to read a lot in the morning, baby killed that.   Tom: Got anything good? Any good books going?   Pierre: I'm a little bit behind with the book club, but I'm reading the book that Michael chose for the RSA book club, Never Split the Difference.   Emil: Great book.   Pierre: And this morning I read the ebook that email sent me and the article on how to write better titles for the podcast.   Emil: Got to keep the audience clicking.   Michael: Yeah, that's great. Speaking of our audience, if anybody has any thoughts, suggestions, insights, hot topics they want to hear about. Please feel free to let us know at eshour@roofstock.com, malbaum@roofstoo.com, or tom@roofstock.com.   Emil: Or hit us up on Twitter. I'm @emilshour, Michael you're @albaummichael. and Tom you are.   Tom: I am not positive… I'm @tscnheido   Michael: Freaky deaky Tom   Tom: Yea, created like whatever, 15 years ago, something like that.   Emil: I like it.   Michael: Skater dude, 27 with an eight.   Tom: Exactly. Awesome guys. Well, thank you so much for listening today. To our episode, we hope that you got some value out of it. If you liked it, please don't be shy. Please rate us. Please subscribe as a meal set. And like Michael and Emil said, reach out to us. We love to hear your feedback on future content to do and to keep driving. So, alright, happy investing.   Emil: Happy, investing.   Michael: Happy investing.    

In this Episode Emil, Michael and Tom discuss the pros and cons of the HELOC, cash-out-refi, 1031 exchange and buy and sell strategies. --- Transcript:   Emil: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Emil Shour, and today I am joined by my lovely co-hosts Michael Albaum and Tom Schneider. And today we're going to be talking about how you can use trapped equity to actually help you scale your portfolio. So let's dive into this one.   Tom: Before we get into it, I want to give you a heads up on a promotion that we're running right now. So with Roofstock Academy, we have always benefits coaching on demand lectures, the tools, our SFR playbook, on and on, but the Roofstock marketplace credit's just got that much sweeter. So initially it was a $750 credit when you buy now it's a $2,500 credit. So you buy Roofstock Academy and for your next five transactions with no time limit, you're going to get $500 back at the close of your transaction.   Michael: That's right, Tom. Thanks so much for sharing. And for all of our listeners, we're actually giving out a hundred dollar off coupon for an enrollment into the Rootstock Academy. So go ahead and use JULY4 at checkout and that's JULY and the number 4, at check out for a hundred dollars off every sock Academy enrollment. And that coupon code is good through July 4th of 2020.   Tom: Take advantage of today. Happy investing. Awesome.   Emil: Thanks Tom. All right, guys. So we're going to be talking about how to tap into trap equity to help you scale your portfolio before we get into the different ways. Why do you guys even think this is an important topic for investors to know about?   Tom: This is gasoline to growing your portfolio? You know, buying a rental property is expensive, right? You know, it's not as expensive of buying an apartment complex, but once you start appreciating, having these properties appreciate and building equity, to being able to flip that appreciation into new rentals, honestly like that's really like a catalyst for growing your portfolio so much faster than needing to, you know, come up with all the new cash all at once.   Michael: Totally, totally agree, Tom, just to echo and piggyback off that if you're taking a hundred dollars a month cashflow, just for sake of discussion from a property that's 1200 bucks a year, that's several years of saving that cash flow before you're ready for your next down payment.So being able to tap into the appreciation side of things, which tends to grow a lot faster and appreciating markets than the cashflow does, can be a really great way to just leverage into additional rentals. Just like Tom said. So hopefully I added some value there and didn't just say the same thing in different words, but I totally agree.   Emil: It's funny because we're all I think in the same boat of we're all cashflow investors and we don't want to bank on appreciation, but when it does happen, there's all these benefits you can take advantage of to help you grow, right? Like most people probably think, Oh, I have to keep saving from my W2 or whatever you're doing to save up for properties. But there's actually a lot of different ways you can come up with the funds to keep acquiring new rental properties.   Michael: Absolutely. It can come from a number of different buckets.   Emil: Yep.   Tom: Something that's, similar to us three is where we're not necessarily need to use the returns we're making on our investment properties right now where I think we both think of it, of the cashflow reinvest that dividends into new properties, as well as the appreciation reinvest that appreciation is new properties. And today's episode is just about that ladder of return and how to actually actualize that to investing in new properties with the appreciation.   Emil: Yep. All right. So now let's get into the specifics of how you can actually tap into that trapped equity. And we're going to be highlighting four different strategies. You can use first one being HELOC or home equity line of credit. Second one is a cash out refinance. Third is a 10 31 exchange and the last one is selling a property and using those funds to buy a new property.   Michael: Yeah, absolutely Emil. So, a HELOC, like you said, as a home equity line of credit and it's something that I'm super excited about. It's something I've used a lot. It's a very, very powerful tool in the real estate arena. So basically what it is is it's a line of credit. Think of it like a credit card that gets established on the equity in your home. So if you've got a primary mortgage, call it a hundred thousand dollars and you've got a hundred thousand dollars of equity in the property, a lender might give you 80% or 70% of the equity in a line of credit, which means they might give you a 70,000 or an $80,000 line of credit. And what it is, it's basically just like I said, a credit card. And so you actually get a check book in the mail and if you need access to that $70,000, you can write yourself a check and you'll have $70,000 as soon as that check, clears your bank. So this can be really great. That can be used as a down payment that can be used to go buy a new car that can be used for home improvements. I definitely wouldn't recommend the car thing because that's a depreciating asset. It doesn't give you any kind of return on your money, but it's just a really, really, really flexible way to have access to quick cash. And then really nice thing about a HELOC is that you're only paying on the balance if it's outstanding. So let's say I set up this HELOC for $70,000 day one. I don't use any, I just have the line sitting there. There's a closing cost associated with setting that lineup, but it's usually pretty minimal, but so now I have access to that $70,000 and I can use it in any increment that I'd like. So let's say next week I want to buy a property. And $20,000 is my down payment. I'll write myself a self, a check for 20 grand close on that new property. Now I'm off to the races. And now let's say a month from now, I get a bonus for $20,000 at my job. And I decide that I want to pay back that line of credit. I can make a $20,000 payment back to the line of credit. And now my outstanding balance is zero, which means I have no monthly payments on that line of credit. The other nice thing about HELOCs is that they're typically interest only payments. So on that $20,000 example, I just gave that I had outstanding. I'd be making interest only payments, which as we all know are going to be significantly smaller than a fully amortized principle and interest payments, some important things to note about HELOCs and their interest only payments, typically they are going to be variable interest rates, which means they're going to fluctuate from month to month. So if I have a 5% interest rate this month, I might be at five and a half or six or 7% month next month. So we just need to be aware of that. But again, if we look at the math and just go back to our $20,000 example, the difference between a 5% interest rate and a 7% interest rate in terms of interest, only payments on a monthly basis is pretty negligible. So I, you know, when I first started using a HELOC and I'll get into it at the end, I thought, wow, the interest rate is 6%. That's crazy. I can go borrow money at 4%. Why would anyone use this, this HELOC thing at 6%? But again, as it comes back to the interest only payment, it's a so much, it's often a much more affordable and digestible payment amount to be allowing you to do things with that money that you might not ordinarily be able to do. So that was a super long winded answer. I know Tom thoughts, feedbacks opinion, additions?   Tom : Love a HELOC. It's like basically a bazooka in your back pocket. Like if you need to like a bunch of cash real quick, like let's say a great deal comes up and you're like cash of like actual, you know, liquid position is low. If you have an open HELOC, you can quickly tap into that and use it. Like for opportunistically, the rates that are available now are pretty incredible. I have one through right now from third federal. Yep. That's the name of it? And it is like hovering like mid two per two point somewhere in the middle. Holy smokes. I'm looking at my app right now and it's unreal and it's, you know, I jumped into it without knowing a little bit about it, but kind of just Guinea pig my way through and setting the line of credit up on my personal residence. And it's as wonderful as it sounds, but just having this huge cash, I'm using the capital right now, doing some improvements to the house that I live at, but what's, what's great is there is no HELOC police. You can use the funds to on whatever you want to use it on. You can use it for buying rental property. You can use it for buying a car. As Michael said, I think you said it was a good investment to get a car. Anyways. I don't remember.   Michael: Yeah a Lamborghini is the best.   Tom: Yeah, HELOC really powerful way to dip into your appreciation that you have. Something that I'm thinking about on the risk side is I don't, who knows what's going to happen with rates? I think into 2021, it could potentially go either way, but I don't want to leave. Myself on the hook for if there is a spike up, just because like Michael said, they are variable rates. I don't want to leave too big of a balance that I can't get out of, but it's a really great resource to have. If you're able to set one up.   Michael: Such a great point, talking about risk Tom. One thing that's really important to note is that a locked is actually a second position mortgage. And so if you've got an outstanding balance that you don't pay on your house or the property that the HELOC is established on could be foreclosed on via that he locked. Even if your primary mortgage or your first mortgage is up to date. So it's gotta be treated with respect. It's it's still a mortgage. It has all the ramifications of a mortgage. So just be aware of that, but they are such, such a flexible tool.   Emil: Nice job guys. You guys covered this one. Well, I have a couple questions for you as someone who's never done a HELOC, never used a HELOC, Michael, you mentioned there's some closing costs. How do those compare to a cash out refinance or just, you know, when you're regular, when you're getting financing, those closing costs, how do they compare to that?   Michael: Super, super minimal? I think I set up my line for like 500 bucks. It was the cost of the appraisal. And then like some miscellaneous minor fees. It was super, super cheap.   Tom: That's right. And on the appraisal, they didn't even send someone out to appraise the property.   Michael: Someone did a desktop appraisal.   Tom: I think they may have even waive that fee on that  one, the one that I did, but yeah, it's marginal costs.   Emil: Okay. I was going to ask you guys about appraisals as well. How do they do that? Do they send somebody out? Do they do desktop?   Michael: So depending on the size of the property, they might send somebody out. But yeah, for mine, it was just as on a single family home.   Emil: Got it.   Tom: Another piece about HELOCs is, as Michael said, you know, it's a delta between the value of the home and the, your first mortgage, different companies. That issue HELOCs may have a different percentage that they go up to, to the value. So the one that I'm in right now, it's the balance of my mortgage, excuse me, 80% of the value of my home that the appraiser comes up with minus the balance of my mortgage. So the point that I'm making is for this particular lender, it's 80%, but I've seen HELOC companies, I believe the San Francisco Fireman's credit union or something, they go up to 90%. Don't quote me on that. But there are some HELOCs that go up to 90% of the value of the home, which, you know, if you're trying to build a, a big arsenal of having HELOC funds, going up to 90% of the value is pretty, pretty incredible. But this was a while ago when I looked at this. So I'm not sure if it's still available, but the point is it's not a one size fits all. Just like mortgages are not one size fits all.   Emil: Nice, good job guys. Well covered. Alright. So any, anything else before we move on to cash out, refinance?   Tom: Might as well do it, go get a HELOC   Michael: Yeah, I was gonna say one last point is it's one of those things that there is very little consequence to doing it and not using it. So I would so much rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it. And so for the $500 expense, I mean, these typically have a five to 10 year drought period. So they'll reevaluate in five or 10 years. If they still want to grant you this line, if you don't use it for five years, okay. Not a big deal. It cost you 500 bucks, but if you do use it, you are going to be so, so, so thankful. I promise you that you establish your future self will thank your past self for having set this up on a property, especially when values seem to be quite high at this moment in time, kind of throughout the markets.   Tom: I'll come in with one last question. Michael, do you have. On your rental property? Cause I know a lot of lenders don't like doing HELOCs on rental properties,   Tom: Like I have it on my personal house. What I'd love to, for you to riff on that real quick.   Michael: Yeah. I've got it on a rental property that I own free and clear. So it was much easier to do because most lenders don't like to come in and a second position lien. Uh, so if you have a free and clear property, you have a primary with some equity in it. Those can both be really great candidates for, although I was talking with a student within the Academy and they were saying that they found a headlock provider that would come in and second position behind a mortgage company on an investment property. So those, you know, everything exists under the sun. So you've just got to go out and find it.   Emil: I don't know if you guys answered this or mentioned it, what's the period on a HELOC usually when is that payment due? Is it five years, 10 years down the road.   Michael: So typically it's it's between five and 10 years, depending on what the HELOC stipulates, but it's, again, it's an interest only payment. And so if you're paying it back slowly over 10 years, and then you still have a balance, usually it'll just convert to a standard mortgage at that point, whatever interest rate is, and that all be stipulated by the lender specifically.   Emil: Got it. Okay. Thanks for clarifying. All right. Let's move on to the cash out refinance now. So basically a cash out refinance replaces your current home loan with a new mortgage that's higher than your outstanding loan balance. And what you're doing is that difference. You're pulling that back out as cash. And what's awesome about this. Just like the HELOC is that this is money you're getting and it's not taxed your, your home appreciates. You're redoing the loan and taking out that difference. And it's untaxed, which is really, really nice as an investor.   Michael: Can you give us some like math, some, some number of breakdowns in meal about what that might look like for an investor?   Emil: Yeah. So let's say you let's make it simple. You purchase a property at a hundred thousand dollars and you put 20% down. So you have a outstanding loan of 80,000, your home appreciates to 150,000. So your equity has gone up 50K. So now you basically redo the loan at an 80%. Some lenders only can go up to 75% loan to value. So you're making, what is that? What does that difference? The 50 K times 75%, Michael's doing the math 112. Okay. So your original loan was 80 and now your new loan is for 112. So the difference is $32,000. So minus some closing costs, let's call it 3000 bucks. You're able to pull out around $29,000 in your cash out refinance. And now your new mortgage is for 112,000 instead of that original 80,000. So some of the things to be conscious of here, you might, let's say you, your home appreciates like the example we just gave. And before you had a cash flowing property, you may, you want to be careful to not over leverage yourself. So now you have a property that's not cash flowing. Maybe you were making a hundred, $150 of cashflow a month before with very conservative estimates. Now your new loan you're basically breaking even each month or maybe even paying into the property. So that's when I think of some of the cons with a cash out refinance, I think some people may over leverage themselves to get that extra cash, create, turn a cash flowing property into one that's negative cash flow.   Tom: An alligator   Emil: An alligator as our friend Michael Zuber a likes to call it.   Michael: So I've, I've got an opinion on this. And so I always say, especially within the Academy with a lot of people I coach consult with that, we have to look at cash out refi is as really a two step process. Step one is getting the cash. And step two is what are you doing with that cash? Because if we can go then buy a second property that will yield us $250 in cashflow a month, as opposed to are just single at one 50, as long as our cumulative sum is greater than its parts. I think that's a good move. Even if I have to have a negative cash flowing property in order to obtain a better one, I'm willing to do that. Tom, what do you think? Whose side are you on?   Tom: It really depends on what your situation is. If you are not needing the cash flow. Now, you know the scale I would advise if you build your portfolio, there's a lot of value in that. As long as you're cognizant of your LTV as a whole, cause you know, with doing a cash out refi, your loan to value is going to go up. So being conservative with that, but if you have the opportunity to scale your portfolio and you don't need the cashflow now, I think you're going to have two lines in the pond with multiple properties of doing that cash out refi and buying another unit with that would be what I would recommend. Does that answer it?   Michael: Yeah, totally. You're on team Michael. That's awesome. Team michael for the win.   Emil: You guys are being silly, don't have negative cash flow on properties. Come on, rule number 1.   Michael: But if your cumulative cashflow is now greater than your single positive cashflow, does that carry any water for you?   Emil: Okay. In our example, what do we pull out? Like 30 K you'd have to use that 30 K as a new down-payment.   Michael: Correct.   Emil: Let's say your, your old property was cashflowing a hundred bucks and now it's at zero. So your 30 K would have to go find a new property. That's going to cashflow. I mean, yeah, at least a hundred bucks, 150 to make it worth it.   Michael: I would argue that it would need, yeah, we need to need to cash flow significantly more than what you were previously making because you could have done nothing and ended up with the same cashflow. So I need, in my opinion, should cash out at least 200. Yeah.   Emil: I mean, it sounds good on paper. Is that possible? Can you take that and go steamroll into more cashflow?   Michael: Watch me, challenge accepted. No, I have, of course I think the numbers have to work and we're, we're just using examples numbers for the sake of discussion to illustrate a point. But I guess the point that that I would take is that if I'm comfortable and again, like Tom said, it's a very personal decision and you've got to evaluate everyone at their own specific point in life and what their, what their properties look like and what their business looks like. But I'm comfortable killing the cashflow on property a to have a increased cashflow on property B that is cumulatively greater than just a alone.   Emil: Yeah. You're more of a risk taker than me. I'm a little more conservative, but to each their own.   Michael: To each his own!   Emil: All right. Cool. Anything else on cash out refinance we should cover. When do you guys think the cash out refinance is better than the HELOC and vice versa?   Tom: Well, the nice thing about the cash out refinance is if rates, as they are now are at a very low number. When you do a cash out refinance, you're going to lock that rate in for 30 years or, or whatever the terms are versus the HELOC. You know, you're still on the rollercoaster on where rates are going. So for me right now, just basically cash out refi the majority of my portfolio to tap into these super low rates that we have. So thinking longterm, looking at the rate.   Michael: I totally agree. I think it all comes back down to what your plan or what the individual's plan is for that cash. If they know that they're going to be buying something in the next three to six months, you know, cash out refi could be a great way to go if they don't know what they're going to do with the cash, but they know that they want cash, HELOC can be a great way to go because you're not paying on that cash to just sit in your bank account, like you are with it with a cash out refi. So, and there's nothing to say that you can't do a hybrid approach, take a little bit of cash out and also set up a HELOC for that remaining equity balance. That can be a really, really great way to go and a really powerful tool. It's something else that just keep in mind is that your rate is going to change from your original mortgage when you do a cash out refi. So you're basically wiping that first mortgage clean and getting a brand new, totally new mortgage. So whatever the rates in terms are of that new one, that's what you've got to come to terms with. And then the last thing to think about is I've heard this said from a number of different people, is that if you're a, towards the end of your mortgage, when go do a refinance that resets the clock back to year one on a 30 year payback for a single family home conventional mortgage. So if you're at the end of your mortgage cycle, you're paying this significant balance towards the principal. You are just gobbling away at that principal balance, which is really, really nice. Versus if you resetting the clock. Now we're paying the vast majority of that payment is going to the interest. So the balance is going to be decreasing at a slower rate than if we're towards the end of our, of the life of our mortgage. So again, just something to consider, to keep in mind, to be cognizant of, as you're looking at considering doing our cash out refi,   Tom: Great point. Hybrid, and it's not a one size fits all you can, if you could use both, have both guns and missiles.But that example, I would say that the HELOC would be the gun and the cashout refi would be the missile, like the kind of a bigger, you know, locked in.   Michael: I thought that HELOC was the bazooka man. Now you're changing it up   Emil: So destructive today Tom.   Michael: Someone played command and conquer as a kid.   Tom: Too much coffee.   Emil: Man, you guys are making my job easy. Like I don't have anything to add on top of like your final notes. Cool. Let's let's move on to the next one, 1031 exchange. Tom, you want to take the lead on this one?   Tom: Yeah. So we'll hit this one pretty quickly. We had an episode earlier episode, I think four or five somewhere in there. Anyway. So at 1031 exchange is deferral. So it is selling a property, not paying any taxes on the proceeds from that sale and rolling all of those proceeds into buying a new property. So with a 1031, there are some rules that you need to adhere to. And a high level example of those rules is you need to identify properties within a specific period. There is rules around the value that you're selling to what you can buy. And we recommend talking to a 10 31 professional company to understand those rules, but the big shtick for a 10 31 exchange is you're selling your property. You're making a bunch of money and you're not paying any taxes on those. You're deferring those now eventually when you do sell and do not use the proceeds to buy another property, which we'll talk about.   Michael: The thing that you're getting at Tom, is that you can continue rolling that deferment via 1031 exchanging every property that you then buy and then subsequently sell. So if you sell property via 10 31 exchange to buy property B, when you're ready to sell property, be 10 31, exchange that into property C and so on and so forth, such that you're deferring, deferring, deferring your capital gains tax until the point at which you might not be around anymore. And then whoever you leave that building to gets a step up in basis. And that basically wipes away the capital gains tax that they would have to pay. So, yeah, echoing what you said, go talk to a 1031 professional before attempting this go to the episode that we did on 1031 exchanges, it's really, really informative, but it's a really, really great way to sell properties and not have to worry about paying the capital gains tax.   Emil: Yeah. And I looked it up. It was episode 15 was a 1031 episode.   Tom: Awesome, reasons that you would want to do a 10 31 is perhaps you're moving your portfolio, moving geographies. Perhaps you're changing to more of an appreciation asset to more of a cash flowing assets. Perhaps you want to take one property and use the proceeds to buy multiple properties or the other way around. There's so many different use cases for doing a 1031 exchange and the mechanics of it, of deferring the tax payment are available for all of them.   Emil: Yeah.   Michael: So what would be a con, why wouldn't you want to do it today?   Tom: You wouldn't want to do a 1031. I mean, you're, you're selling the property. So if it's an asset that you like, like, you know, you are changing assets, you know what other ones cons are?   Emil: Oh, the, the timeline you have, right? So sometimes I think it's like a 45 day or 60 day timeline to identify the next property that you're going to re 1031 into. And so sometimes I think you could feel like it's forcing your hand into maybe a so so deal versus something where you wait, you know, maybe you pay the capital gains on it, but you finding a better property cause you, you're not restricted to this short time window.   Michael: Mhm   Tom: Other con I would put is versus those initial two with the HELOC and the cash out refinance, you have a very good idea on how much money you're going to have available from that maneuver. But with a 1031 exchange, you're selling the property. So there are just a lot more variables on what you're going to get when you for when you sell the property versus like knowing what the, what the rates are and whatnot with a, with a HELOC and a cash out refi.   Michael: Yep. And one additional point to add on top of that time, I always seem to be picking piggybacking off you cause you've got such great points. Is your back tired yet from carrying me?   Tom: I'll call you Jansport. Go ahead   Michael: Is, you know, in the first that we talked about, we're tapping into the equity and now have a usable cash. In addition to still controlling the asset. When we go to sell as with the 10 31 and selling a property straight up as we're going to talk on in a minute, we now no longer own the asset. And in the example of a 1031, we don't have the cash because we need to use all of that cash to buy a new property. Now, of course, if we don't use all the cash, that's called boot and that can be taxed at capital gains rate, whatever. But if the idea is to pay as little capital gains possible, we want to be using all of that gain into a new property. There's going to be nothing left over for us and usable cash.   Emil: Talk about boot a little bit. You mentioned it briefly. Michael, do you know that? I think it's the boot is, let's say you sold your property at 200,000. You go and find another property for 150 K you still have $50,000 that isn't used in the 1031 exchange. And so if you don't use that within your 1031 timeline, you're still taxed on that $50,000 capital gain or whatever.   Michael: Exactly whatever that Delta is, whatever is not used up is leftover and that's called boot,   Tom: Yeah. And that's a con example, you know, you're, you're fitting a little bit more of a piece of a puzzle and you can't fit it just right. You're going to have some taxes. Sorry Emil, go ahead.   Emil: All right. Michael, do you want to close us out on selling a property straight up without a 1031 exchange?   Michael: Yeah. So last and final way to tap into the trapped equity is just sell a property straight up. So instead of doing a HELOC or a cash out refi or temporary one, just sell the property. If you bought it for a hundred, now you can sell it for 120, sell it for 120. You'll walk away with 20 K and you'll have to pay uncle Sam, the capital gains on that. And depending on what your personal financial situation looks like, that's going to dictate what that game might look like. So if we call it a cool and easy 25%, you'll walk away with 15 grand in your pocket, not a bad payday at the end of the day. So I think a lot of people get hung up in, Oh, I've got to do 10 31. So I've got to do cash. Every fire, I've got to do a HELOC. If you just need the cash quick and you just want to be done with the property, for whatever reason, you just want the cash, you don't want to have to worry about it. Just sell the property. It can be a really, really great option. And again, depending on your personal financial situation, that's going to dictate how much tax you may or may not have to pay on that gain. So Emil, do you have any pros cons to this type of thing? Okay.   Emil: Yeah. So I have a personal example of this recently. So I bought a property about two years ago and recently decided to sell it, ended up selling it for the same price I bought it for, for me. So I didn't have to worry about a 1031. I didn't have any capital gains to worry about. I basically ended up a little bit below break even. I lost $1,200 you factor in cashflow and selling and all that stuff. But for me, I wanted, I wanted this down payment back, right. I put 25% down on this property. I wanted my down payment back to be able to go use it on something better that that property was okay. Cashflow property, but I'm pursuing a little bit different of a strategy right now. And there's, again, there's all these different ways you can tap into money. This, this property hadn't appreciated. So cash out refi hayloft weren't really options for me, but I wanted to get a nice chunk of cash right now. And so I just decided to sell this property at basically no gain. So this is something I used recently.   Michael: So that's a massive pro. Okay.   Emil: Right, exactly.   Tom: I like that example because you know, you got you, you dipped your toe and you know, maybe it wasn't like the property you wanted, but I think that the takeaway that I hear from it is, you know, when you do these maneuvers and nothing is locked in stone and you know, these are all, some excellent tools that you have in your back when you are investing in real estate. And there is some appreciation, some extra equity, but ultimately, you know, doing, you have a lot more options within this type of investment and to have these options available, you got to get in, you know? Yeah,   Michael: Absolutely. And Emil is something too that I don't think we touched on yet is, is the tax advantages that you've had for the last two years as a result of owning that property. So if we looked at the total total, total return factoring in loan, pay down appreciation, tax benefits, all this kind of thing, my guess is you're, you're gonna end, you're still gonna end up in net positive. So even though you didn't see any true dollars gained in your pocket, if we turn the clock back and look, two years in reverse, you probably did better on this than you would have had otherwise.   Emil: Right. And, and to echo Tom's point, it's a learning experience. I didn't lose that much. Right? Like obviously there's an opportunity cost of that money making money over the last two years versus losing. But I think that's part of it, right? I think a lot of real estate investors only talk about the big wins and sometimes it's not always rosy, there are some things that happen that were isn't what you expected. But the important thing is you learn something from each, each maneuver each step   Michael: Nicely said, Tom, do you have any good examples of any instances where you've maybe used one or multiple of these strategies to grab some tap equity, some trapped equity?   Tom: Yep. So HELOC on my personal house, have that line of credit, uh, did a cash out refinance. It was two years ago on some properties and actually going through a couple of them right now getting a lot of dry powder available if using a lot of, yeah. Of a weapon analogies,   Michael: A lot of pirate puns today,   Tom: A lot of pirate puns, dry powder anyway, and then did a 1031, a couple of years ago, getting out of a specific geography or I guess a better way to say it is concentrating into a different market than that current, that property was in. And just like we were talking about earlier in doing these exercises, you get experience and kind of understand them that much better   Michael: Love that.   Emil: How about you, Michael? Any stories you want to call out on using these strategies?   Michael: Yeah, sure. So I bought a property, all cash awhile back and then day one cash out refi, 80% of the sale price, which the lender was gracious enough to give me and then basically took all of that cash and put it into the rehabbing of that property. And now that property is worth a whole lot more. And so I intend to go cash out refi again. Now at the higher value after the rehabs all said and done, everything's leased up. So some important things to think about are the refinance costs that I incurred now twice. Thankfully the lender that I work with, the refinance costs, it's the same lender I use for my, HELOC their refinance costs are pretty minimal. So it's not a big deal as far as the costs are concerned, but it's a really great way recycle that cash and only needing to have that initial chunk of change to buy the property, all cash. Obviously we have to make sure that the rehab costs aren't going to exceed the, the 80% refinance of the initial purchase, but that's a really, really, really great tool that I like to use a really great strategy is buying all cash, turning around, refinancing, getting that cash out and then go, go doing it again somewhere else. So then again, I've already spoken about the HELOC I've used. So using those two things in conjunction has been a really, really great way for me to be able to scale pretty rapidly and take advantage of some killer deals that have popped up on the radar over, over the last couple of years.   Tom: So one more thing I'll add real quick is knowing what your loan to value is. Um, that's just really important with any of these tools. You want to just make sure that you have an appropriate balance between the total mortgages or HELOC value or whatever out on the property versus the value of the property. And I think, you know, at a minimum, you know, 75%, 80% loan devalue, more conservatively, you can get down to 60%. Well, I'd love to hear what you guys think is an appropriate loan to value ratio.   Emil: I'm probably personally pushing it to like the 75 80% cause I'm in growth mode right now. I think later on at some point, just for peace of mind, it's going to switch to, okay, how do I increase my equity on these properties? Maybe sell properties to own certain other properties free and clear, but right now it's kind of just grow. And then I think it will be switching to how do we make this more efficient.   Michael: Yeah, anytime I get this question, I think of that song, push it to the limit, push it to them. Cause I totally echoing Emil. I levered up as much as I could when I was in growth mode. And I've talked about this in other episodes. Now I'm looking to really streamline and become super, super lean, super efficient and reduce my loan to value and just being able to do more with less. I also think that depending on the deal itself, I mean, if the, if the value isn't there, but you've got a high loan because it just, the property isn't super valuable, but it cashflows really well. So your debt service coverage ratio, the amount of income that you're bringing in compared to the debt on the property is, is really powerful. Then I'm more okay with that. You know, if I've got the cashflow to cover the debt, even though it might be a very high debt ratio, I'm, I'm comfortable with that. And so everybody's got to reconcile that for themselves and determine what their risk appetite looks like and how comfortable they are with the values that they're working with. But no, I like him he'll have, have levered up as much as I possibly can. What about you, Tom?   Tom: Yeah. Growth, growth mode. I mean, debt is cheap right now. So keeping it at, you know, 70% I think is a number that I keep in a keep in the back of my head, and not getting, getting beyond that. Cause once you start getting involved that you risk where if there is like a downturn in the, in the market, getting under water where the value of the loan is greater than the cost of the house, I think it's pretty unlikely, but that's how a lot of people got in trouble in that 2008 crisis is the value of the loans greatly exceeded the value of the houses. And that's not a position that you want to get in. So that's why you want to build that buffer. It's kind of, it's similar to the alligator expression, a property that cashflow is negative. The version of that for value is a property that's underwater. So the worst animal in the real estate investing zoo is the underwater alligator.   Emil: Yes. Don't be an underwater alligator finishing strong.   Michael: Yeah.   Emil: I have a question for you guys. Let's say you have a rental property and does go underwater, right? As long as you have a tenant, who's covering rent, your mortgage, all that stuff. Does it matter? Like as you know, real estate goes in, cycles goes up and down. Let's say you temporarily go underwater, but you're still cash flowing. You're still able to pay everything off. Do you guys think that matters?   Tom: It really depends on your situation. Like if you are an ultra growth mode and you are not at risk of not servicing your debt payments, even if you do have a vacancy or something, I think that's fine, but it's pretty situational. So if you have good other sources of income to be able to cover those shortcomings, I think that's fine, but you need to have a, an end game plan as well as some contingencies, if things go sideways, which sometimes they do.   Michael: Yeah. You know, it's a great question Emil one that comes up a lot within the Academy. And it's something that I don't pay a whole lot of attention to as far as the value, because I agree that it doesn't really matter. Nothing about that. Snapshot in time has changed. If you have a rental renter paying the rent, your income has not changed. It's totally independent of the value. So as long as you don't need to do anything with that property, either sell it or refinance it or try to get a heat lock on it. It has no impact on the financial picture. In that snapshot of time, of course it'll affect your net worth and all that kind of a thing. But again, it doesn't affect the property's performance. And it's kind of like a stock. If a stock has gone down in value, we don't automatically say, okay, we now we're going to sell it. It's an unrealized gain or loss until we do something with it. Buy, sell refinance.   Emil: Yeah. Yeah. I think the same thing I think about it a lot, I guess it's just the unknown of will you need to sell for some unknown life events, right? And then it's, you're putting yourself at risk in that way.   Michael: Exactly. Exactly. But that gets into the bigger discussion of having reserves and not, not ever being in that position because you never want to have to fire sale something.   Emil: Sure. Cool. I always think about that one. I was curious to get your guys' thoughts on it too.   Michael: What's your guys's spirit animal and the real estate investing zoo?   Tom: An Eagle. No.   Michael: Why?   Tom: Agile. Peregrine. Falcon. Fastest animal. Next question.   Michael: Yeah, but you're at the zoo. So you've got your wings clipped. Same answer?   Tom: I'd fix them. I'm like a lizard.   Michael: Grow new wigs that are better faster stronger. Emil, what's your real estate spirit animal?   Emil: Oh man. My monkey swinging from property to property. I don't know, man.   Michael: That's a good one. Eating bananas the whole time, right?   Emil: Exactly. Yourself. Michael?   Michael: I'm a duck man. I said it before. I'll say it again. I'm floating. Looking calm on the surface underwater. I'm paddling hardest.   Emil: Well, thank you as always everybody for tuning into this episode, make sure you go and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts, you get new episodes. And if you enjoy the show, please leave us a review. We want to know what you think and we'll catch you on the next episode. Happy investing.   Michael: Happy investing   Tom: Happy investing  

In this episode, Emil and Tom talk with Leandra Figueroa, the Valuations Manager at Roofstock, about what goes into our valuation reports. --- Transcript:   Emil: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of The Remote Real Estate Investor. My name is Emil Shour, and today I got my co-host Tom Schneider, and we're going to be talking to our valuations manager here at Roofstock. Her name is Leandra Figueroa. We're going to be learning all about what goes into our valuation reports, how Leandra and her team compiled those and what it means for investors. So let's hop in   Emil: Leandra. Thanks for coming on the show. We're excited to have you guided to be here. So like we do before any episode, anytime we have a guest on I go and I scour their LinkedIn, creep on their LinkedIn just to get a background on them. And I noticed that you've been appraising and running valuations for over a decade now, but can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and what you do here at Roofstock?   Leandra: So here at Roofstock, I started as a pricing analyst, basically looking at the properties that the sellers are looking to list on Roofstock and looking at the sales comps for that specific property, you know, the same size similar condition, and actually seeing what the property could sell for in our marketplace.   Emil: Nice. And how long have you been at Roofstock   Leandra: Just made three years last month. Thank you.   Tom: 21 years in dog years as a startup,   Leandra: It feels that way.   Emil: So run me through kind of just, you and your team day to day. What are you guys really focusing on?   Leandra: So we have a couple of variations of tasks that come through their valuation tasks. They could be initial pricing tasks. This is where the sellers first engaging with our account managers and kind of just feeling out to see what we feel the price range could be, what they could sell this property for. And then we have another set of tasks where right before a property gets published, you know, the inspection is completed through the certification team, and then we're actually able to give a more accurate opinion of value because we have an inspection report. So that's another step. Those are another bunch of tasks that we do prior to publishing. And then another one that we look at, I guess, similar to the initial pricing is the seller self service. This is where the seller actually requests the valuations themselves and kind of just try to flow through the roof, that process. And so that's another way that we also value the properties that come through.   Tom: That's really interesting. How you talking about this funnel? You're talking about, you know, you do this initial pricing and then you get more information with condition. How big of swings do you see? And I'd love to learn a little bit from an appraiser. Like what is the ways that an appraiser thinks about condition? Because I understand there are categories, right?   Leandra: Correct. Correct. So there's a C1 through C5 and C5 being new construction, never lived in. Though funny enough, some of our sellers, they have a 1960s home and they'll select C1 as the condition.   Tom: But it's beautiful. It's beautiful. Just kidding.   Leandra: What do you mean it's not C1?   Tom: That's literally brand new build, right?   Leandra: Yes. It's absolutely only for new builds and this is in the appraisal world and then C2, maybe more high end rehab renovation. C3 is average, maybe some updates here and there. C4 no updates like normal wear and tear. C5 and C6 is almost like uninhabitable and, and needs major repairs. So yeah,   Tom: How big of a swing do you get in valuation based on condition? You know, if you had to do it like…   Leandra: From our initial pricing?   Tom: Yeah, just kind of a curious question   Leandra: I wouldn't say there's too much of a difference. I think if anything, like I said, some sellers will say, it's the one and then the inspection report comes back and it's more like C3. So we know when sellers say C1, it's just, it's just telling us that they've done some rehab work. And so we kind of try to value it as a C3. And then if it turns out that, you know, after reviewing the inspection report that they did do these high end upgrades, then we're actually going to look for the right comparable and not just stick it at C3. We're going to look for the C2 comps. So it's rare that there's a large variance, I would say maybe five to 7% of the time. It's completely out of range from where we were initially   Tom  (04:47): Trust, but verify, trust, but verify. I got it.   Leandra: Yep.   Emil: Some people who are listening, they're not even sure where, so we publish these valuation reports with each listing that goes on our site. Can you tell the listeners where they can access that with each property?   Leandra: In the analysis tab for each listing, you'll be able to see the valuation report. Initially when you first look at the listing, you'll see the range, you'll see the value range, you'll see the rent range, but clicking on the analysis tab would actually show you the PDF of the report.   Tom: And in that PDF, it's pretty much all the homework, right? You can see the actual comps and the sale date and the square footage.   Leandra: Correct. And if you wanted to see photos of the comparable to kind of just for your own knowledge and how we're comparing it to the subject, you know, just a quick Google search on those comps would be able to show you some photos of the comps we use.   Emil: Got it. Yeah. I was going to ask what's in there besides, I mean, valuation range, obviously you guys pull comps as well. I think neighborhood score is in there. Is there anything else that we add in there?   Leandra: I believe just the subjects data, just your bill bed back, count footage, lot size neighborhood score. I believe school score that's in that as well. And sales comps are going to be in there. Perfect.   Emil: Awesome. Okay. Can you run us through someone who's never done evaluation? Just what does that even look like? Where do you start? What are the processes you go through to get all these comps and come up with the evaluation report?     Leandra: Well, at Roofstock, I mean, the first thing is like, that's verify the data. You know, the seller comes to us with a three bedroom, two bath with 700 square feet and it's like, Ooh, something seems off here. So then we want to look at County records. We want to just see what other data we can find. Funny enough, I have a situation that I ran into this morning where it's a 900 square foot triplex with four bedrooms and three bathrooms. What we found was there was a finished basement that actually has two units. And so what you want to do in those situations, so first verify the data. You want to make sure that we are going to value this properly and you wouldn't be able to use in that situation that I had this morning, priplex comps were all the square footage is above grade. You really want to find one where, you know, there's a main floor and then there's a finished basement with a unit down there. Like that's going to be your best comparable sales. So going back to just the process itself, it's verifying the data before you actually can find what you're looking for, find the right comps, because you want to make sure that you're looking at sales that are recent, especially with market changes. And you want to look at sales that are similar in size, similar in bed bath, count your build location and condition.   Emil: Where are you looking for those comps? Is it Zillow? Is it somewhere else?   Leandra: So we actually have a couple of third party vendors that we use that generate data, sales data, probably from the local MLS or just County record data for prior sales. And so we're taking all that data and actually looking at the ones closest in proximity to the subject. That's really going to define the neighborhood and what that property could sell for. Cause like we know values can differ from one block to another. You see that a lot in Chicago or neighborhoods that are vastly different from blocks of blocks. So we look at third party sources sometimes we'll look at Zillow, but for the most part to sales, we see on Zillow, we've also seen from the data that we pull.   Tom: I think there's this interesting art and science to an appraisal. And you know, you're talking about finding properties that are close in proximity and recent sale. And ideally, you know, you find something that was sold right next door, exact make model. At what point do you put, you know that, Oh, that's too old of a sale that, that shouldn't count in my analysis or, Oh, that's too much square footage. I'd be curious. It's just some general that you, as a longtime appraiser, think about as not valid in comparing.   Leandra: I mean, if the house right next door sold within 12 months, I would still use that as a comp because you have to do this side by side comparison to even see if there was an adjustment in value for that market, for that property. So you have to take more than one comp to figure out what the adjustment is for size, what the adjustment is, if any, for bed bath count and what it is for time, you know, if any, from what the value is today versus where it was last year. So you have to do that analysis with at least three properties. And that's why appraisals tend to have at least three sold comps. So you can really dial it down and figure out what the adjustments are for the different features of the subject.   Tom: Yeah. So that makes sense in that appraisal, it will be much more difficult in areas or more subjective if there isn't a lot of sales. Am I understanding that right?   Leandra: Yeah, that is correct. It's really just based on, and lenders tend to give the most weight to sales comps just because it's kind of like insurance for them. We know we can sell it for this price, should the borrower default or you know, something along those lines. So in areas where there's less sales happening within 12 months, it tends to be difficult. Sometimes we'll have to expand further, go back 18 months and actually apply a time adjustment for those comps that we're using. And even then, it's kind of still just hard to figure out we're having to expand outside the subjects, immediate neighborhood to try to find at least three solid comparables.   Emil: That makes sense. I wrote down a question, I forgot to ask you, as you were going through how we do the evaluations, you mentioned there was a finished basement in that triplex, I'm curious are finished basements included in square footage on a home, or it has to be above ground or whatever you would call it.   Leandra: Correct. On the standard appraisal form. Basements are separated from the above grade square footage. So although this property has two units that are clearly generating income for the owner, that value would be in line on the sales comp grid with the basement and not that above grade level. So it's super important that we find a comp with a similar unit in the basement, which can sometimes be a needle in a haystack, but, but we'll keep expanding and we'll keep doing those time adjustments. If we need to just to find that one, that's really going to help us figure out what this could sell for. So, yeah, you're right. It's not included in the above grade square footage   Tom: Leandra. I know a lot of investors both on the buy and the sell side. They look at Zillow, right? It's super easy. It's kind of tasty, just a single number. What would you have to say to investors who are really banking on that number either as a seller, as a buyer, as that is the truth about what the valuation is on the property?   Leandra: I would say, don't. No, I mean on the surface, it's nice to see, but I wouldn't just stick with one, right? Like look@realtor.com. Look at Redfin, look at Zillow. And more importantly, Zillow has a really nice tool where you can actually dial it down to properties that are more similar in size, kind of how we look for comparable properties when we're valuing our listings, you could do the same thing in Zillow. There's a filter section where you can filter out the small stuff, the big stuff, the stuff different in size. I mean, I'm different in age, different in size and kind of like narrow your search radius to really get a good idea of what your property could be worth. But definitely don't be fixated on that zestimate or that Redfin estimate. Do your own research and do your own comp polls super easy. Zillow has that nifty tool. And I would definitely start there.   Tom: That's great. So get into it. Look at the actual sales comps before leaning so heavily just on that one number they pull up. That's great.   Emil: I want to second that actually. So I track my Zestimate pretty regularly and the first property I bought, it's been about three years since I bought it. And it looked like on paper, according to the Zestimate that it had appreciated like $40,000. So I went to do a cash out refi and it was significantly less just because I think this is just not knowing any better. You really, really have to take into account the quality, like you mentioned, right? Like they're just probably doing it more so based off size, square footage and the surrounding area, but off all the homes in the area where they're coming up with that, or the kitchens are brand new, the bathrooms are brand new in your home. It's a little more dated. You're not going to get in that range.   Leandra: Right. You're right.   Tom: You think you're a C2 Emil, you're a C3 Emil.   Emil: I'm a total C3.   Leandra: No, you hit it right on the nose with that. I mean, Zillow takes all the sales and Zillow doesn't know what the condition is of your property or the property, the other properties that have sold. So that's where really takes that human touch to really figure out and dig deeper. Like, you know, is this actually a good comp.   Emil: Right   Tom: My other question that I have is, so you look at tons of comps all the time. I'd be interested if you've noticed any trends we're roughly, I don't know, two, three months going into a pandemic. Have you noticed any things with the sales price or do you think it's still too early to notice any adjustments and I'd love your thoughts on it?   Leandra: Yeah. I mean, still valuing properties today. Honestly, I have not seen yet any big price drops to where it's significant. What I have seen is a slowdown in actual sales. So a lot of sales data is more from like March, December, January. There's really not too many recent transactions. And then rightly so, right. People may are a little nervous, but I haven't seen a decline in crisis yet.   Tom: It's the function of doing transactions have been stalled up with shelter in place and not being able to go out and do appraisals and counties shutting down. That makes a lot of sense.   Leandra: Yeah, definitely.   Emil: One of the last things I wanted to ask you, so these valuation ranges we have on our reports, what percent of the time is the appraisal coming back in that range? How often are we basically missing? Do we have any data around that   Leandra: we do. It's a small percentage that we're missing. I would say less than 10% of the time. We might have an appraisal that comes in below our value range, but nine times out of 10, almost the appraisal or the actual sell price is within our value range.   Emil: I'm curious, have there been any scenarios where the appraisal comes in lower and someone uses our valuation report to go back to the bank or the appraiser to actually rebut it and it comes in higher?   Leandra: Yes. Whenever that happens, the transaction team reaches out to my team and we review the appraisal report. We review our report and the sales comps we use versus the comps the appraiser used and just see what type of adjustments the appraiser will used in their reports. I had one recently where the appraiser didn't even review the purchase contract. So they don't even know how much this property is being purchased for. And a lot of people just see this as a non MLS sale. So they think there's a discount applied to our properties when there's not. So in those cases, him, I will prepare a rebuttal and send it to the lender. And then the lender would send it back to the appraiser just to kind of review. We might give them additional comps to consider or comment on why it wasn't used in their report.   Emil: Nice. Okay. That's awesome. I didn't even know he provided that. That's great.   Tom: Another question into the crystal ball of appraisals and valuations. So I know right now for originating loans, right? You'd get your appraisal done. And they've always been very particular about doing the full shebang, like an appraiser going to the site. And my understanding is they're getting a little bit looser, at least on the refinance where they're allowing what's called a desktop appraisal. I'd love for you to touch on your thoughts on, you know, where this is going and maybe touch on a little bit about kind of like a desktop appraisal. Like how is that different? And then also, where do you think the, uh, the crystal ball going? I like it, how my voice gets higher as I'm at the end of my sentence. It's like aggressively like full off. Okay, go ahead.   Leandra: You know, even pre COVID Fannie Mae was already working on some sort of desktop reports to help lenders kind of speed up the appraisal process. There's markets today where it takes two weeks to get an appraisal done, maybe even longer, because there's not a lot of appraisers in that area. So in an effort to try to speed up the process, that transaction process or the processing of alone, they were already working on what the industry calls a 1004 P and it's basically a desktop report for appraisers, but an inspector goes and does the inspection. And somehow this was supposed to speed up the process because then appraisers are not having to go out and do the inspection themselves. There's someone else doing it, doing that part of the work, and then giving that information to the appraiser. And the appraiser is just sitting at home, cranking out these desktop reports.   Leandra: So now with COVID-19, I've seen a lot of lenders lean towards, and this is great for everyone's safety is using desktop reports. The only setback to a desktop report is if you had like a brand new remodel done on your house and you're refinancing the, appraiser's not going to know that, um, the appraiser's going to do just based on exterior or what I've seen. There's a company that a couple colleagues work for where they're doing this inspection report. Having the owners actually take photos of their interior and send that to the appraiser. So there's ways around it without, you know, having to expose anyone to anything, you know, for the safety of inspectors and appraisers and for the safety of the homeowners and the people that live there. I have seen more desktops being ordered right now, which is great. I think we could still do an accurate appraisal without having to go inside the property.   Tom: That's great. Yeah. I want to get credit for that C2.   Leandra: You really do. I'm seeing like a $500,000 difference. One of my colleagues did an appraisal in Montclair and it was valued at 1.2 million. And then the borrower's like, hold on. I did all this work. Like I know my house is worth more. And then my friend went back and actually was like, Oh my gosh, this is nothing like the prior MLS photos. Like I was completely wrong. And the value came back at 1.7M. So it's important to actually see if you've done any remodeling for an interior, some sort of interior inspection to be done, whether it's the borrower taking the photos or, or the appraiser just doing the inspection.   Tom: Makes sense. All right. Time for some quick fire questions. Hope you're ready. I hope you're ready. So we do this with some guests. It's a quick either or decision some real estate related some not really real estate related, but all right. So are you ready for this Leandra?   Leandra: Okay.   Tom: High rent growth or low vacancy.   Leandra: Wow. That's tough. No vacancy.   Tom: Good choice. Safe play. I liked that one too. Yeah.   Leandra: Yeah. Slow and steady wins the race. I mean, at least it's consistent.   Tom: Yeah. Flow or appreciation cash flow.   Leandra: Cash flow   Tom: Ooh. Is surprising from an appraiser. Not thinking about that appreciation, but yeah. Debt or equity?   Leandra: Equity   Tom: Equity, love it. Local or remote investing?   Leandra: Ooh. I mean, if I was local in Memphis, then I might say local, but remote. Definitely   Tom: Single family or multifamily?   Leandra: Ooh, that's a good one. I actually have a lot of people ask me about that. Multifamily.   Tom: Ooh. Do you notice a big difference in appreciation between the two, like over the last several years?   Leandra: No. No, not at all. Not really. I think why I would choose multifamily is just a higher cash flow. You know, more rents coming in and again, with the low vacancy, you know, it just sounds like a win for me.   Tom: Turnkey or massive project?   Leandra: Turn key.   Tom: All right. My last three questions, midnight oil or early bird worm?   Leandra: Early bird worm.   Tom: Love it. Text message or email?   Leandra: Text   Tom: And the last question. Olive oil or butter?   Leandra: Olive oil   Tom: Love it. All right. You did it. You made it through. Excellent.   Emil: Well done.   Leandra: Oh my God. That was so fun.   Tom: Well, thank you so much for coming on Leandra. This was enlightening. I love to talk about valuations with you and always learning a little bit. This is fantastic.   Leandra: Thanks for having me. This is great.   Emil: Thanks again to Leandra for coming on our show. This week learned a lot. I hope you did as well before you guys go, wanted to tell you about some new we have going on at Roofstock. It is our referral program. So if you invite your friends and they buy or sell a rental property on Roofstock, you get $250. And so does your friends. So just head over to [inaudible] dot com slash my dash referrals, and you'll be able to invite your friends with a simple link. And again, if they end up buying a property or selling a property through the Roofstock marketplace, they'll get $250 and you'll get $250 for every friend. You refer to check that out and we'll check you out on next week's episode. See you later. Happy investing.   Tom: Happy investing

Would you ever lie to get on reality tv? Because Tom Martin would! In this episode of Punch Out with Katie and Kerry, we talk with Tom about his ill-gotten reality TV fame, his epic dinner parties, why learning to cook is essential for dating success, and why cycling outside is superior to Peloton. We also get the scoop on his retirement plans and his ideas for offsetting the cost of raising children. Tom is the author of 'The Invisible Sale' and co-founder of Converse Digital.  In this episode we learned: The time Tom bonded with Tyler Florence over “soggy reinos” How his philanthropic-minded kids have founded multiple nonprofit organizations How to make cooking with your kids an adventure What kind of food you can expect at his dinner parties Links from this episode:  https://www.foodnetwork.com/shows/food-911/episodes/soggy-chiles-rellenos-in-metairie-la Want to know more about Tom? You can find him at: Website: https://conversedigital.com/tom-martin Twitter: @tommartin This episode is sponsored by the HELLO Conference.  What are you doing on October 22, 2020? You should be attending the HELLO Conference where marketers learn to be human at scale in the age of machine marketing. The speaker line up includes experts from SalesForce, Amazon, Trust Insights, and Firespark. Attendees have a unique opportunity to glean actionable insights on intelligent tools and the future of marketing from professionals who work with the world’s top brands. Tickets available at: https://bsquared.media/helloconference/  Punch Out with Katie and Kerry is the show that dives deeper into topics you care about. We don't ask the questions everyone else does. We get to the real insights (and the weird hobbies, the guilty pleasures, the secret side hustles...the good stuff)! We find out what really makes your favorite folks tick. Punch out with Katie and Kerry! Have a cool hobby or side interest you want to talk about on Punch Out with Katie and Kerry Let us know:  Website: www.punchoutwithus.com Email: punchoutwithus@gmail.com Hosts: Kerry O’Shea Gorgone @KerryGorgone  & Katie Robbert @katierobbert

90 DAY FIANCE ZIED AND REBECCA They’re in a hookah bar and someone starts staring at her because she took off her jacket. Rebecca is reminded of ex boyfriend because Zied got angry at strangers. So, they argue, it gets calmed down, and they all continue sitting next to each other…  Her eye make up is WILD. It’s jet black.  Interview: “I worry that the secrets I’m keeping in my past might push him over the edge.” Ugh these people and their secrets DARCEY AND TOM I am obsessssed with Darcey. I am obsessed with: her beauty products, her outfits, her brand names, her desperation, her eyelashes, her anxiety…  Darcey is reeling from Tom saying that he recently stopped ‘seeing several women’ for her. Umm Tom is a liar.  Darcey at the top of the stairs sees Tom “Oh look it’s like you’re waiting at the alter.” OMG SHE’S SO EMBARRASSINGGGG Darcey talks about her sister who is going to Albania to see HER fiance. They are sisters in stupidity. And yet, Darcey wants to change vacation plans to Albania to join her sister. She says it’s basically so Darcey can confirm that she and Tom are a good match.  Darcey suggests to tom they go to Albania. Tom does not want to change his plans. Yeah no duh!!!! Darcey says Albania is “nice and… mediterranean-ish.” Darcey just wants people’s approval, not the actual experiences and connection.  Darcey: Stacy and I want our guys to meet. I just want her to know I’m happy. OMG this is soooo toxic. Tom agrees. Darcey and Tom suit up for cricket. They walk down the pitch. Darcey: It’s like walking down the aisle. Tom: You never quit about the wedding thing, do you?  Darcey puts on the cricket pads and they play the best awkward music.  Tom hits a wicket. Darcey calls them midgets. Tom awkwardly falls over.  Tom tells her they’re called wickets. Darcey: Sounds like a sex term. Tom: You turn everything into a sex term. Darcey: Are we just going to cuddle forever? Tom chokes on his water.  Darcey has an interview look where she’s wearing a black sparkly dress. Her eyes are JET BLACK. Darcey in interview: I’m starting to feel insecure. Maybe I should pull back emotionally.  YES DARCEY IN EVERY ASPECT OF YOUR LIFE YOU NEED TO PULL BACK EMOTIONALLY.  ACT TWO AKINYI AND BENJAMIN We need to talk about this guy’s hair. It’s not like his just happens to be greasy. It looks intentionally greasy and then split down the middle. WHY?! Just WASH IT!!! It would look so much better!! It’s willfully greasy!  Ben has just landed in Nairobi, Kenya. Ben says “You’re my dark chocolate.” Fantastic.  AKINYI: “There’s something I haven’t told Benjamin yet.” UGHHHH HERE WE GO. Oh, she tells him immediately. That’s good. Oh they’re just going to his brother’s place. Big deal.  It’s so odd that she’s whisking him away to her brother’s like he’s being kidnapped. I do feel bad for him… this is a bit of an ambush.  OMAR AND AVERY I died when Avery said her fiance is from Syria but they can’t go to Aleppo because it’s basically levelled. It’s not funny but it’s such an insane sentence.  Avery tell us when she woke up she found out Omar let her down. He didn’t find them a sheikh to get them married or a venue. Omar is like…. It’s the weekend.  They have to get married so that Avery can go home and apply for Omar’s visa. She also hasn’t told her mom that she’s moving to Syria after they get married. I’m just not sure what there will be to do for Avery in Syria.  Avery is making a huuuuge mistake complaining to her mom about Omar. Now when they make up she will hold it against him even more forever.  Avery’s mom offers to help her find a venue. That’s really sweet.  ACT THREE ANGELA Look… I’m not spending a lot of time on her. Why is she back? They’re story feels so fake.  Angela shows her daughter SKYLA all of her sex toys for Michael.  Angela gets on a plane. The difference between how Angela looks on a plane vs Darcey…  TIM AND JENNIFER Tim creeps me out. His proportions are unsettling. Jennifer is a bit of a lunatic, yelling in front of her daughter.  They get to his apartment.  Tim gives Jennifer her gifts. This visual explains the essence of what Jennifer is in this for.  They go to dinner…  Jennifer likes his style. Tim asks if it’s too feminine for her? She says no.. then Jennifer tells us he’s not her type, but he’s a family man. You can’t find a family man in Colombia?!  Tim reveals his manicure. Jennifer calls him a pussy. Here’s the thing… it’s great that Tim has a manicure, do whatever you want, but that excess of gloss is a bit much, no?  CAESAR His title card is just him alone. Caesar is taking video of Cancun for Maria, who is invisible.  Caesar reminds us that he’s been catfishing her for 5 years. Caesar’s bag has arrived. His ring for Maria is supposed to be in there.  My favorite side character in Caesar’s story is his producer, whose questions all have the subtext of… sooo you really think she’s real, huh?  Caesar texts Maria and sees that she just checked her messages a minute ago. So he calls her. She doesn’t pick up… “Maybe hse’s getting on the plane.” Mannnn he has a theory for everything!!  Caesar swims up to a family and starts talking about Maria. He shows them Maria’s picture. The punk kids ask if he’s being catfished and laugh super hard.  OMAR AND AVERY Avery is literally dragging Omar up the street to find someone to marry them.  Omar approaches the sheikh who is wearing a sweatshirt that says ATHLETE on it.  Avery’s mother has to cover up, says it’s uncomfortable, and says “Avery hasn’t been muslim in the summer yet so we’ll see.”  Of all the secrets, Avery’s is the meanest. Her mom is going out of her way to help her, and she’s going to be like oh btw moving to Syria byeeee.  MICHAEL Michael tells his co workers that he quit his job because Angela wants to know where he is at all times, so he sends her money. That’s so weird…  TIMOTHY AND JENNIFER After dinner, Timothy asks Jennifer to stay.  Jennifer puts on her pajamas and comes out. Timothy says of course he wants to have sex with her but he’s scared of her. In his defense, the cameras are there… how is he supposed to put the moves on her.  Timothy wants to do eye masks. He hands her wipes to take off her makeup.  Tim: “Come on cuddle with me.” She turns over to her side.  OMAR AND AVERY Avery asks Omar if he plans on her moving to Syria. He said he hopes so. Omar explains that power and water are cut off all the time.  Avery says she can handle it if Omar can. Now they have to tell her mom.  AKINYI AND BENJAMIN They walk in to the apartment and Benjamin meets a bunch of sisters and in laws.  Akinyi puts a bracelet on Benjamin. She asks for her gift. Sooo uncomfortable. Well he bought a plane ticket and and an air b n b that presumably you would stay at tool. So, you’ll live.  DARCEY AND TOM Darcey says that Tom agreed to change the plans to go to Albania, but at the same time someting is off. THAT! THat’s what it is!  Tom has finally had it with Darcey being over the top. He says it feels false. Darcey is shocked. This is his version of flipping out and being like ENOUGH.  Also she’s crying. Tom doesn’t know why she needs to ask the question about how he feels if he’s been doing all of these nice things for her. It’s a classic case of expressing love differently. She needs words, he’s more of an action guy.  Tom makes a joke and easens the tension. Then Darcey makes a comment about how his pajamas always stay on. They start feeding each other. Tom eats cheesecake off her finger and she immediately sucks on her own finger.  ZIED AND REBECCA Zied combing his weird long hair is amazing.  They make peace over the night before. They head out to meet his parents.  Zied says Pyorple instead of people.  I LOVE that Rebecca has to drive him everywhere. He basically ordered a Lyft driver from overseas.  Zied wants her to hide her tattoos. She’s worried that his family doesn’t know anything about her.  Next week… Jennifer throws something very milky onto Tim.  ANGELA AND MICHAEL Angela lands in Nigeria, they’re excited to see each other. Next week, will caesar finally meet maria?  Darcy Tom Avery Omar Tim and Jennifer Ceasar Zied and Rebecca Akenyi and benjamin Angela and Michael

Tom Schwab is a veteran in a nuclear power plant and an inbound engineer. In this episode, he shares his unique approach to social media platforms and how to use today’s technology with marketable value to his passion and work. “He focuses on time-proven strategy, and supercharges it with today’s technology.” Tom helps advising, teaching and leading people using target podcasts. 02:42 Work is what you do and not necessarily where you go. Tom shares how his life and work starting in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Growing up in the Midwest a proud alumni of Dayville Academy, he ran a nuclear power plant where he learned discipline and where everything can be taught and systematized. He taught himself and moved from sales to marketing to finally running his own distributorship. He started a company that supplies direct to patient durable medical equipment. When he started his company in the middle of the great recession, making it difficult to establish a real salesforce, he then hired MIT graduates that created Hubspot in Boston that helped him create an inbound marketing strategy. They have used content to lure customers to their business, and in 2014, started podcast interviews as additional means for their marketing. 03:34 Inbound marketing, how you used content to attract, engage, and delight customers. Now, he has his team in the United States, serving about 90 clients, helping them promote their businesses through podcasts to tell their stories and help them reach their potential customers. With selling DME’s to direct set of clients using inbound marketing, his business was voted 2nd unsexiest products sold with inbound marketing in one conference. As their initial target market are people in crutches, or will be on crutches, and fresh from surgery or from any traumatic experiences, they have gone to analyze who their target audiences must or would be and that set the tone of their marketing. They started to think of ways to gain their potential customers trust and respect in order to be known for the field of product that they are selling. 06:08 Nobody goes online and says, hmm, what am I going to be sold on today? Everybody goes online with a problem, and to look for answers to their problems. 06:48 The best way to sell something today is not to sell anything, but earn the respect, awareness and trust of those who might buy. Tom shares with Shmuel the payment methods of the products that they are selling. Ultimately, it all depends whether they are covered by insurance, and when they have to be shouldered privately by the patients of by a healthcare professional, nursing homes, etcs… Stories are also shared to understand how podcast contents are planned. The best way to attract the focused audience for the specific health care topics, and from there, the talks will make its way into looking for tangible products to use when coping up with certain traumas or accidents. Tom’s company’s goal is to eventually have the patients or customers look for their business understands they potential limitations, knowing the product that they are selling is a means to help people recover from accidents. 10:37 Shmuel to Tom: You’re targeting people with the problems, not people who are looking for the solution. And that makes sense. One client actually commended Tom and his team, telling them they are “Preparation H”, because they are doctor-recommended, focuses on the problem, get rid of the pain. “Nobody cares about your product or your service. All they care about is their pain and their rear end.” And because the team is focused on helping the client on that, they so much better that the other suppliers. 13:03 If one person is asking the question, chances are other people are asking it too. Another good point discussed in this episode is time-frame of the consumer, from not-knowing to purchasing, as per Tom’s experience, and even though it differs on the needs of each individual, another factor that weighs in on the time scale is the binding cycle of the product. How much does it cost for this number of days or months? 15:37 Biggest problem is obscurity. There are thousands of people we could help if they only knew we existed. Shmuel interestingly discusses the businesses’ concerns as well, and their needs to tweak their products in order to cater to the needs of their industry, but ends up compromising the integrity of their products. 17:12 Scarcity mentality. I don’t see people asking for me so it must be that I’m not in demand, so let me try to adjust my product to address the needs of the people in front of me. He pointed out the importance of sticking to the business product, assuming that the product is genuinely good, and avoid obnoxiously focusing away on the unique gift and talent of the product, and that will eventually make its way to the right customers/people. 19:04 Assuming that you have a real product that solves a real problem, then all you need to do is find the people that feels that pain. Tom continues to suggest ways to maximize marketing by creating meaningful content that offers solutions to the focused customer’s problems. It also creates harmonious deals with clients being specific with the services that they offer and that if they came across someone who doesn’t appreciate their business, they can proudly let go of the sales, making them accept the ideal clients that they need for their businesses. Podcasts, for Tom, have become a serious game in the technology industry right now. As it was discussed in Harvard, and group of companies making purchases on podcasts, people seem to appreciate and realize the legit business into it. 23:10 You ask a business owner to write a blog, that’s a homework assignment. You ask them to be interviewed in a podcast, they can talk about their company and their passion all day long. So now, as podcasts becomes appreciated as a more natural approach to introduce companies and ideas, it has also become a better and more effective approach for marketing businesses. Inbound marketing, according to Tom, should be focused on understanding the business and strategize it using the current tools. For him, it isn’t solely being dependent on certain tools like podcasts, but using technology and platform and answering the why’s in using it. Tom and Shmuel also gets into discussing transactions versus relationship and which platforms are better for which purpose, blogs or podcasts. Tom enumerates the factors of this technology and the percentage possibility on which will be more successful in engaging with the audiences/customers. As the episode ends, Shmuel also questions SEO technology, asking why if someone typed in “Can I build my business through podcast marketing?” and the podcast is not the first one on the list. Tom explains Google’s new technology in planning to transcribe audios moving forward. He also understood that more than the transcription, the suggested links were also about the people wants, plusmore other factors in the search engine, meaning that the suggestions aren’t just based on the titles but also the referencing and mentions in between the sites and podcasts. Resources Follow Tom Here! http://interviewvalet.com/9to5 Book Reference They Ask; You Answer

In this episode of HR Works we discuss equal pay surrounding the Women’s U.S. soccer team—especially in the light of their recent World Cup victory with two experts Tom Cunningham and Charles Bendotti. Following is a partial transcript. For the full transcript of this episode, go here: https://hrdailyadvisor.blr.com/2019/07/24/discussing-equal-pay-and-the-u-s-womens-soccer-team/ Jim: Hello, everyone, and welcome to HR Works, the podcast for HR professionals. We really appreciate you taking the time out of your busy day to join us. I am Jim Davis, the host of HR Works and the editor of the HR Daily Advisor. Today, we’re going to talk about gender pay equality, specifically with regard to the U.S. women’s soccer team’s situation. They just won their fourth World Cup victory just about a week ago, and there is a pay equality issue in the works and some lawsuits. It’s a little bit complicated, but here to discuss pay equality in general and the situation with the U.S. women’s soccer team are two guests. I am pleased to introduce Tom Cunningham, Vice President of People at Pariveda. Am I saying that correctly? Tom: You are. That’s close enough. Jim: Excellent. It’s an organization that prides itself on its transparency. He oversees internal learning activities, recruiting HR functions, and office operations, ensuring that the company’s people are supported in their continuous development throughout their journey. Before moving into this role in 2017, Tom served as the office-managing Vice President for the New York market. He was responsible for building, growing, and managing the local market consulting practice. Tom holds a BA from Yale and an advanced degree in music performance from Westminster Choir College. We’re also pleased to introduce our second guest, Charles Bendotti, Senior Vice President of People and Culture at Philip Morris International (PMI). He was the architect behind the global equal salary certification and has been with PMI since 1999, when he started as a business analyst. He was named Vice President of Human Resources Asia in 2012 and was elevated to his current role in 2016. Charles holds a master’s degree in international relations, economy, and law from the Graduate Institute of International and Development Studies in Geneva, Switzerland, and an executive MBA from HEC Paris. Jim: Thank you both so much for joining us today. Tom: My pleasure. Charles: My pleasure, as well. Jim: So, just to introduce the situation, I’m sure most of our listeners are aware, but the U.S. women’s soccer team won its fourth World Cup victory just about 10 days ago. And leading up to that team, leading up to that victory, was a lot of discussion about pay equity. Indeed, when the team won, the whole stadium began chanting “Equal pay.” The pay situation is a bit complicated, and we don’t have to get down to the details, but the Guardian did a great job of running down what the men would have been paid if they had made it this far (which, by the way, they never have) and what the women will make. It’s a bit of an estimation, but it’s saying that each woman will have earned $260,000, and the men would have earned $1,114,000 if they had gotten as far. Clearly, those numbers are not the same. So, we’re just here to discuss what’s going on. What do you guys think about it? And what do you think about pay equity in general? So, I guess the first question is, does that sound like equal pay to you? Charles: So, Charles talking here. Let’s make a very clear statement: It’s not equal pay. I mean, if the U.S. women’s soccer team worked for PMI, they would be paid exactly the same as the men’s soccer team. So, I think there’s no question about it. There is no equality on this one. And I think we need to go straight to the point about it and be very clear about what we’re saying. If, as you say, the women’s soccer team generates more revenue than the men’s soccer team, by default, they have to be paid more.

If you're fascinated by history, the Greatest Generation, World War II, and aviation, there's a good chance you're already aware of the Lyon Air Museum - Greatest Generation Tribute.  If you don't know or haven't yet visited the Lyon Air Museum, add it to your to-do list immediately. Nestled away in a Santa Ana industrial park, directly on the tarmac of John Wayne Airport, the Lyon Air Museum features airworthy craft documenting many facets of World War II. Not only an aircraft at the museum, but Lyon also showcases various ground vehicles as well - including a parade vehicle that Adolf Hitler rode in. Perhaps the most notable aspect of the Lyon Air Museum is that members of the Greatest Generation themselves - World War II veterans - volunteer as docents, bringing this truly incredible venue to life nearly every day. Click play to listen below as Mark Foster, Lyon Air Museum CEO, shares more fascinating details in this iDSC podcast. And be sure to check out the amazing photo gallery too. ***Transcript*** Recorded July 31, 2018, in Santa Ana, CA Mark: We're the Greatest Generation in an aviation museum, so we focus primarily on World War II veterans and aviation. We've got famous airplanes, the rare flyable World War II type airplanes. We've got the military vehicles, motorcycles... we even have a very historical car that was originally owned by the evil dictator, Adolph Hitler. Introduction to the Lyon Air Museum Tom: Welcome to iDriveSoCal, the podcast all about mobility, from the automotive capital of the United States, Southern California. Tom Smith here, and I am in ... Where are we technically? Costa Mesa, right? Mark: We're Santa Ana, which is really Newport Beach, Irvine, Costa Mesa. It's all kind of around the corner, and it's at John Wayne Airport. That's the thing, we're not near John Wayne, we're at John Wayne Airport. Tom: That is Mark Foster, who is the, what's your exact title? Mark: Whatever you want to call me, but President, CEO. Tom: Okay. President, CEO of the Lyon Air Museum. Mark: Correct. Tom: Right down here, literally, I'm looking at Alaska Airlines getting ready, it's taxiing down the runway right now. Mark, thank you very much for having me and the iDriveSoCal podcast. Again, all about mobility, from the automotive capital of the United States. A big piece of mobility is air travel. The Lyon Air Museum. Tom: You have a couple of things going on in the museum currently, but I recently learned about you guys. I guess you've been around since '09, and I recently learned about you guys on KTLA. Saw a quick piece and said, "Hey, I really want to go down there and have a chat," because you guys do some really, really cool stuff down here. So, with that strange, kind of totally non-traditional introduction, Mark Foster of the Lyon's Air Museum, literally right on John Wayne Airport watching planes taxi as we do this interview. Thank you for joining me. Mark: Oh, it's great to have you. Thanks, Tom. Aviation Museum Dedicated to The Greatest Generation Tom: So, high-level. What do you guys do here? "We're the Greatest Generation in aviation museum." Mark: Well, we're an aviation museum, and we're the Greatest Generation in an aviation museum, so we focus primarily on World War II veterans and aviation. Tom: Okay. For those that don't, and I think there's a whole lot of people that aren't aware of the opportunity to come and check out what you guys have here, but your museum, again, you're right on the John Wayne Airport tarmac, you can come and see what? Lyon Air Museum shares John Wayne Airport tarmac. "The airplanes that are in the hangar here, all of them are airworthy." Mark: Yeah. Well, we've got the World War II airplanes. We really start with pre-World War II aviation history. We've got pre-World War II, like a DC-3 American Airlines type aircraft that's kind of a late '30s design, and then we go all the way up through aircraft that wou...

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号: VOA英语每日一听Joel: Hey, Tom, when you were in Thailand, did you, were you good at bargaining? You know how you have to haggle to get the price lower. Tom: Once I got started it was OK, but, oh, getting started was so difficult.Joel: What do you mean?Tom: I just knew that when I walked up to a market stall, that I'd pick up something, and if it was something that I wanted, to get it, I'd have to start fighting. I'd have to get through his argument it felt like, and I was really uncomfortable about doing that.Joel: That's the problem with me, too. I was always too nice. It's like, you know, I'd give them one price and then, they would never go for the price that I ask for so I, if the price was a 100, and I said, "OK, 50", then they would say, "Well, OK, 95", and I usually wouldn't take it much further than that.Tom: Oh, no, that's complete, I'm completely different. If I started it was because it was something that I really wanted, and I'd already had an idea of the price, so once I started that whole deal, oh it could take quite a long time. I'd, we'd chat, you know, it's a very friendly way of doing it in Thailand. We'd talk about the price. I'd do a lot of smiling. I'd pick up some other things that were similar and I'd really go for it and take a long time.Joel: I heard that the trick to it is you really need to tell them a whole story, like you can't just say, " Oh, I want the price lower", you have to say like, "Oh, well, you know, I don't have any money and I really need to get this for my family and this is the last time I'm going to be here, you know, I've run out of money, can you give me a deal on it. You can't just tell them you want a lower price. You have to give them a good reason and you have to have a dramatic story to go along with it.Tom: I've done that in the past. I've emptied out my wallet, and I've said, this is for my lunch. This is for the taxi. This is all I've got left for you. Right, and then you take a bus home. A bus is a lot cheaper than a taxi.Joel: I've also heard like you can get, usually if, as I've said before if the price is, the quoted price is 100, then you should shoot for, not a third of that but, even like, half of that. You can get it for 50, not 75.Tom: Yeah, I think the first price is always, you can always get a big reduction on that, but I remember the last time I went shopping in Thailand I was buying stuff for my mum and I'd left it really late and it was pouring down with rain and my mom wanted something, it was very specific, some silk trousers and she wanted 10 pairs to give them away to her friends, and I trolled around this big bazaar with hundreds of shops looking for this very specific product and eventually I found it and the shopkeeper only had half a dozen; I wanted more, and she said her price and I just gave her the money. I wanted to get home as quickly as possible, so I got half a dozen ties on top of the trousers because I hadn't bargained. She gave me something extra just for not trying.Joel: Are you going to Thailand over this break?Tom: I'm going at Christmas, yeah.Joel: I'm wondering if, I got really big feet, and I'm having a hard time getting shoes here. Do you know, I know you have big feet too, I'm wondering, is it possible to get big shoes?Tom: Yeah, they definitely have them. They make them there and they're all these outlets.Joel: And. they're cheap too, right?Tom: That's right.Joel: I'm wondering if you can pick me up some when you're out there, like any kind of business shoes.Tom: You want business shoes?Joel: Yeah.Tom: OK.Joel: Just black business shoes, any kind you find is fine.Tom: Lace-ups?Joel: Yeah, lace-ups are fine. And like a size 12, American.Tom: You want one pair or two pairs?Joel: Yeah, maybe two pairs, that's even better.Tom: Sure, I'll see what I can find.

Join the marriage after God movement today. https://marriageaftergod.com Quote from Marriage After God chapter 6 "Walking in autonomy is not only dangerous for your marriage, it is also rebellious. Our relationship with Christ cannot be separate from our relationship with other believers." In this chapter of marriage after God we end with this encouragement: “Don’t wait to be pursued; be the pursuers. Don’t wait to be served; be the faithful servants. Don’t wait to be loved and invited. Love and invite. Be transparent with your marriage, be honest, and love well. We are all connected. We are all one in Jesus Christ, and He is our head, leading us and guiding us to do His will in this world.” Dear Lord, Thank you for the gift of your body. Thank you for the gift of fellowship and friendship. May we be people who are motivated by love to reach out and be a friend to others. We pray we would have the courage and confidence to be people who welcome others in, who are transparent, who are there for others, who lift others up and who pray for others. Use our marriages to be an encouragement to other marriages. Use us as a team to bring you glory, Lord. Help us to never live in isolation. Help us never to be divided. We pray the enemy and we pray our own flesh wouldn’t get in the way of fellowship. May our desire to participate in your body increase even more! May the way we treat one another be a light and an example to the rest of this world. In Jesus’ name, amen! READ: [Aaron] Hey, we're Aaron and Jennifer Smith with Marriage After God. [Jennifer] Helping you cultivate an extraordinary marriage. [Aaron] And today we're on part six of the Marriage After God series and we're gonna be talking with Tom and Heidi Celaya about the importance of Christian fellowship. Welcome to the Marriage After God podcast where we believe that marriage was meant for more than just happily ever after. [Jennifer] I'm Jennifer, also known as Unveiled Wife. [Aaron] And I'm Aaron, also known as Husband Revolution. [Jennifer] We had been married for over a decade. [Aaron] And so far, we have four young children. [Jennifer] We have been doing marriage ministry online for over seven years through blogging and social media. [Aaron] With the desire to inspire couples to keep God at the center of their marriage, encouraging them to walk in faith every day. [Jennifer] We believe that Christian marriage should be an extraordinary one, full of life. [Aaron] Love. [Jennifer] And power. [Aaron] That can only be found by chasing after God. [Jennifer] Together. [Aaron] Thank you for joining us in this journey as we chase boldly after God's will for our life together. [Jennifer] This is Marriage After God. [Aaron] We just want to invite everyone that's listening to leave a review. That helps other people find the podcast. It's how iTunes works, it's how all the podcast apps work. A review helps us get reach. And also if you would like to support this podcast, we'd love to invite you to go to our store, shop.MarriageAfterGod.com, and pick up a copy of our new book, Marriage After God. It's what this whole series is about. It's our newest book and we're excited to get it into your hands. And yeah. [Jennifer] Okay. So Tom and Heidi, thank you so much for being with us today. [Heidi] Thanks for having us guys. [Jennifer] People don't know this, but we've been friends for a really long time. What is it like nine or 10 years? [Heidi] Nine years, actually this month. [Jennifer] Crazy. Okay, so why don't you just share a little bit about who you guys are, how long you've been married, and how many kids you have, what you do for work, that kind of thing. [Tom] Yeah, I guess this is my part, she said. So, we're Tom and Heidi. We've been married 11 years and three months, four months, October of '07. So we just yesterday passed our 14th dating anniversary, which she made me feel like garbage 'cause I didn't get her anything and she got me a couple things. [Heidi] I did not. [Aaron] You're like, I didn't know we were celebrating our dating anniversary-- [Heidi] I was at Sam's Club and got him a pair of shorts. [Tom] Yeah, I didn't know we were celebrating. And you got me cookies as well. But anyways, we have two kids, a nine-year-old daughter, eight-year-old son. And yeah, we've been living in our home currently for five years, and I'm in medical sales for a job and Heidi runs the house here and handles our crazy kids. So yeah, we're kind of a normal, somewhat normal family I think. [Jennifer] Awesome. Okay you guys, we're gonna go into our icebreaker question, which, Aaron, you want to ... [Aaron] Yeah. What is one of your favorite memories of us from our friendship over the years? [Heidi] Oh man. Favorite memory. [Tom] I don't know. [Jennifer] 'Cause there's so many. [Aaron] 'Cause all of your memories are your favorite of us. [Tom] Right, that's the whole-- [Woman] Yes. [Tom] I've got a few. I don't know exactly which one I would say my favorite is. Gosh. [Jennifer] I feel like when we think about this question, I was telling Aaron, all the late nights, all the late nights we spent at your guys' island eating ice cream and just chatting and laughing. [Aaron] They don't own an island. Their kitchen island. [Heidi] Yep. Thank you. I didn't understand what she was-- [Tom] I was gonna say, one of my, one of the ones I think of and laugh about, because I think it's disgusting, is the fact that we would go get ice cream and you would get a shake or a malt with half and half instead of, like, low fatter. I remember just thinking just, oh my gosh, that's disgusting, I can't believe he's drinking that. And we would probably-- [Aaron] Yeah, what was it? Circus animal ice cream? [Tom] Yes. [Heidi] Yes, with half and half. [Aaron] With half and half. Half and half cream-- [Tom] In Clairemont, yeah. And you would just, you loved it and you would feel a little sick afterwards, but it was, we were always just laughing about it for a long time. [Aaron] It was so worth it though. [Jennifer] I think that's really abnormal. I don't think a lot of people would relate to you on that, Aaron. [Tom] No. [Heidi] No. [Aaron] You're making me, I want one right now. [Heidi] I think my most-- [Aaron] That's a good memory-- [Heidi] Story of you two is how we were kind of desperate for friends, married couple friends, and when we met you at Fuse kind of offering, hey, if you guys ever want, we are about 20 minutes away, but we'd love to have you over for dinner. And you actually took us up on the offer and I think-- [Tom] A lot-- [Heidi] What was it, three to four times a week over at my house, and I loved it. I think when you throw out that, hey, we should have you guys over sometime, it never really ever happens and you kind of feel a little bit hurt that they didn't take you up on the offer, but to have you guys take us up on the offer and for us to get so close and dive so deep into both of our marriages was definitely my favorite because I mean, we both put ourselves out there and opened up so much that-- [Aaron] Yeah, we loved that-- [Heidi] It couldn't have happened otherwise. [Jennifer] And I think we were in a place in our marriage where we really needed it too. So I think that's really cool. [Aaron] We definitely were, yeah. That's what this episode's about, actually. [Jennifer] Yeah, this episode is all about friendship and fellowship and so we're gonna dive into a quote from Marriage After God from this chapter. [Aaron] And it's walking in autonomy is not only dangerous for your marriage, it is also rebellious. Our relationship with Christ cannot be separate from our relationship with other believers. [Heidi] So true. [Aaron] Yeah, so that's from chapter six of our book, Marriage After God, and the chapter title's called Walking Autonomously Doesn't Work. And when we thought about who we can interview for this episode, you guys were the first people that we thought of because in our life when we needed fellowship the most and when we were afraid of it the most, we found you guys and you found us. [Jennifer] Well, yeah, I was gonna say, it was that you guys wrapping your arms around us and inviting us to your table at that marriage bible study, which Heidi mentioned earlier, it's called Fuse. That was a turning point in our relationship and our marriage, and it just stands out to us and I think it forever will. And I'm just really excited about this because other people listening will be able to hear your guys' side of the story because if they read Unveiled Wife or if they're gonna read Marriage After God, we mention you guys and we mention your impact in our lives surrounding fellowship with other believers. And yeah-- [Aaron] Have they read what we wrote about them yet? [Jennifer] No. But now you're here and they get to hear from you guys. So I love that. [Aaron] Awesome. And you guys haven't read the chapter yet, right? [Tom] No. [Heidi] No. [Aaron] Okay, good. It's all good stuff, I promise. Yeah. [Jennifer] Okay, so speaking of that night at Fuse where we showed up, our marriage was in turmoil and we were just looking for that last ditch effort, kind of like, what are we doing? We step into this bible study, there's a lot of marriages and people there greeting one another and we're like freaking out on the inside. Kind of look at each other like, let's get out of here. [Aaron] It was terrifying. Walking into that big old, a huge open room, and how many people were there when we came? It was like probably-- [Heidi] Probably 600. [Tom] No, no. Probably about 350. [Heidi] You think so? [Tom] Yeah. [Aaron] Yeah, 350 people. It was a lot. It wasn't as full as it got, but it was pretty full when we came. [Tom] Yeah. [Jennifer] And anyways, we were trying to sneak out. We were trying to find a way to just walk back out the doors and Tom comes up and sticks his arms around Aaron and I and he's like, hey, you guys new? [Aaron] I remember getting startled by it actually. 'Cause we were walking backwards, which I know is-- [Heidi] And he's not a small guy either, so, big old mitts on your shoulders. [Jennifer] So you guys brought us to your table and that was kind of the beginning of our friendship together. So Tom, you've mentioned that Aaron's appearance at the time, he had plugs in his ears, he had a beard and-- [Aaron] Yeah, tattoos on my wrist. [Jennifer] Not the typical guy you would have been friends with back then. But can you just share, what was going through your mind at that moment? [Tom] Yeah, let's state for the record, clearly I'm not a very judgmental person. At least I don't think though, but yeah, at the time, just, here's ... I am the non-talkative one of Heidi and I's relationship. To be very clear, Heidi loves the talking and doesn't stop. So, and that's just not my style. And so God has placed us in this marriage, which is a story in and of itself or in this marriage ministry where we took over this table at this marriage group, and he just blessed it. It became a huge group of probably around 30 people, so about 15 couples, and they really, what they wanted was 10 couples or 10 people at each table, five couples. And so we were big and it was, it's something I loved. Most of those people are still friends to this day, but it was a lot for me and just how I like to operate, so yeah, I look up that night and see these two. And we are also one of the younger tables there at the time. [Aaron] Yeah, I remember that. [Tom] Seeing you guys walk in, I was like, oh gosh, they're our age group. They're probably our life experiences as of right now, whether it's young kids or no kids and some are looking over there and thinking, uh, no thanks. I don't know this girl who is an all American gal is standing next to this guy who's got plugs in his ear-- [Aaron] A little weird-- [Tom] Short hair, a beard, all these things, I'm looking. Like I am 100% as I said a minute ago, I'm not judgmental, I was 100% judging and thinking, I would never hang out with that guy. That gal looks like a great friend for my wife, but I would never hang out with that dude, we've got enough people at our table, I'm good. And there's those times that God whispers and you're not sure it's God, and there's other times where you just kind of move. You're like, what the heck is happening, because I don't really want to be doing this and perfectly honest, that's what was happening. Is I just felt the nudge and the pull, and so I got up and walked over and yeah, and you guys were ready to move out. You actually were on the way out. [Aaron] You saw it. [Tom] I remember Jen's face was one of sheer terror, of, oh God, we almost got out of here and this guy just ruined it. And Aaron's was more of a, okay, okay, good. This, okay, we'll do it. [Aaron] I needed it. I was, I needed someone to hold my hand in that moment because like, I wanted it, but I didn't know-- [Tom] Yeah, so we moved towards the table and that was literally one of those, it changed our life, changed our marriage, and it was one of those things, I'm darn glad I got out of my seat and went and did it. Because not only was that good for us, but I can also speak to others who have zero desire to include other people or you know, you hear a comment a lot like, I have enough friends or whatnot, which I think is a bad comment to make. One I've probably made my own, but it moved me out of my comfort zone and changed our lives for the better. [Jennifer] I love that you shared all of that. And so much of this book is about saying yes to God in moments like that where he nudges you or he pulls you out of your chair and you say yes to him and you do it anyways. And I'm just so you guys know, we still really appreciate that you did that for us. [Aaron] Yeah, and we not only have written about it extensively, but we share the story often and we, a part of the, what we talk about in this chapter, specifically with what you guys did in our life is when you, Tom and Heidi, said Yes to God in that one little moment, which was a series of yeses, becoming the leaders of that table and wherever God had led you before that, you wouldn't have known back then what kind of effect, lasting effect it would have in the fact that that one moment would not only turn into a lifetime friendship and relationship with us, but would also impact thousands and thousands of other marriages and people through your one act of obedience. [Tom] Yeah, there's-- [Aaron] So I, go ahead-- [Tom] We've met people, or not met, I shouldn't say that. Actually, we have. People we've met and then also people we knew that years later we talk to or run into or Heidi meets randomly in a grocery store and like I said, she talks to everybody. We're mentioned right, as you helped our marriage or you were instrumental and perfectly honest, we did nothing. We were fools, of sorts, used by God because we didn't even know we had any impact on these people, let alone strangers, but then people we knew years later say, you have no clue what you did for us. It's just, it's humbling, it's neat, and just to understand that if you allow God to use you, you have no clue what he's gonna do. And probably by the time Heidi and I are in graves, we'll have no clue what impact we had. But that's what we're supposed to do, we're supposed to be used by God for his greater good. [Aaron] Yeah, and I hope those that are listening right now, and that's exactly why I wanted to interview these people like you is because people don't know. They may think, what can I do? How can God use me? And you simply got up and said hi to us. Now, it's lots of laughter and tears after that, but still just that one act of obedience, the fruit from that is exactly what God's looking for from all of us and that's, I just love that you highlighted that. So, man, I'm loving this interview so far. Is this the one we want to go with? Okay. So what kind of barriers do you think keep believers from close fellowship with other believers? Because that's what we had. We grew in close fellowship with each other. What do you think it is that stops believers from making that deep connection and walking in obedience with fellowship with other believers? [Heidi] Oh, man. Honestly, I'd have to say pride. A lot of times, especially with social media age, you want to give your best face, you want to show pictures of your kids perfectly dressed and their hair perfectly done and you'll move things out of the background of the picture just so that way the background looks nice. But I think, unfortunately, I think people don't want to share their stink. They don't want to say, we're going through this issue or I have this deep seated issue or they just don't want their stuff out there for people to judge or question how perfect they thought their life was. And I think it's uncomfortable for people to let down that wall and share who they really are and share what their marriage is really going through. [Jennifer] Yeah, you guys have been really good at being an example of how to live transparently with other people, 'cause you guys were open with us and that opened the flood gates for us to be open with you guys because of that example. And I think it's so important for people to hear, how would you encourage someone to walk transparently with one another? How do you do that? [Tom] I think there's another aspect to it too, is from a good friend who joined the group as well that said he was tired of bible studies with people that weren't like him. And not necessarily weren't like him as in same exact life experiences, but as I kind of said with Aaron, looked at him and thought I'd never hang out with that guy. He was always turned off by, well, I tried this group, I tried that group, it didn't work. All those guys were nerds or none of those guys played sports or things of that nature. And there's a constant, I get that part, but if you're open to it, you might find that, as I tell my kids, right now in school, you may, there may be differences and clicks or different things like that, but as you get older, those things really do melt away. And especially if it's a brother or sister in Christ, you have a really deep bond that many don't understand. But there's a part to it too, when you hang out with those who aren't like you. For instance, Aaron, when you and I were in the men's fellowship group together, gosh, you were obviously younger than me, but we were both vastly younger than anyone else in that room and just-- [Aaron] Yeah, I remember that. [Tom] Stuff that we picked up from those guys who one was divorced, one was married, he was married but they were both from divorced families and kind of had a Brady Bunch type of union now. The things that I learned from that group, including on how not to talk to my wife and ended up actually causing some stress in my marriage when I told her how I shouldn't be talking to you, even though I have been, then all of a sudden she picked up on what a jerk I had been. [Aaron] She's like, yeah, you shouldn't talk to me like that. [Tom] Yeah, it was a total backfire move on my part. But it just, the things you learn from people when you continue to give it a shot and be open to it. If you go in with walls, you're gonna come out with walls. If you go in-- [Aaron] That's good-- [Tom] Being willing to hear or listen, I think everybody can find that community and like Heidi said, if you're willing to lower your walls and lower your pride, you'll find out everybody's just as jacked up as you are. It's just different levels, 'cause no marriage is perfect. [Aaron] Oh, I love that. And it's like the, it's this idea that recognizing what we do have in common, which is Christ, and being okay with that being the thing that we connect on because that's what God wants anyway and being able to throw out those preferences of like, well, I only want to spend time with this kind of person, which is hard to find the right person. It's rare that we have that kind of relationship, right. So I love that. How have you two navigated being a part of fellowship with the body of Christ? [Jennifer] And maybe how are you currently fellowshipping with other believers? [Tom] I got nudged, so this one's mine. So we no longer attend a church where it's facilitated by the church. So we met via a group that was facilitated by the church. And to be honest, thank God for them, they made it easy, right. Childcare and a building and all those things. So that doesn't exist where we live anymore, and so, and we don't attend a church that really has that. So now it's become harder work. It's no longer the ease of high school, seeing your friends every day and then you become an adult and go to different colleges or go to different jobs. It takes work for those relationships, and so that's where we are now. It's a lot of work to continue this. And so there's an aspect of that that's more rewarding. There's also an aspect that's more frustrating. So we totally get the part where continuing in this type of ministry or this type of group is not easy, but it's so important. When we take breaks from it, I don't want to call it a toll because it sounds negative or like it's destructive, but the toll it takes on our marriage is seen. It's very easily seen in that we just don't vibe as well. A marriage becomes more difficult than it has to be when we're not in fellowship with others. [Aaron] So even if it's not as easy as it was, you guys recognize that it's still a necessity and a vital part of your Christian faith is that you must be in fellowship, whatever that looks like. [Tom] Yeah, there's something to it when people ask, I work with so many people who will ask like, how often do you and Heidi fight or what do you do this, or how do you handle this? And yeah, and I explain that to them. There's a part where you share life with others and these can be people who are non Christians. Just when you share life with others and share your experiences, your victories, your struggles, that's what we were created for. And again, if I'm talking to a non Christian, I don't have, I throw God in there, but there's an aspect for them too, that even if you're not a believer in Christ, if you're not fellowshipping with people who help you get better or can take some of the load off or even just share life with, you're missing something. And so, yeah, there's a definite need for us every day, if not at least once a week, like a marriage group that we have now, we have to do it or else there's just a hole and there's a window that-- [Aaron] So you're saying is it's just a basic, it's the way God created us as humans is we need deep human connection, we need deep human relationships and that we can't just walk autonomously. And then especially for the believer, we need Christian fellowship to be around other Christians to sharpen us, to grow us. That's what I'm hearing you say. [Tom] Exactly what I'm saying-- [Aaron] Is that it's not something we can just, we can't just throw it out. Right, that's what, which is what a lot of Christians do. I use this word autonomous. A lot of believers are totally fine with autonomy because that seems easier. Like, oh, just, you can have what Heidi said. You can have this facade and long as you, let's be cordial and we'll be nice and all, we'll hug on Sundays, but then you're not allowed to know who I am, you're not allowed to see the dirt in my life, you're not allowed to call me out on anything, you're not allowed to know that the dark parts of me. [Jennifer] How do we grow and mature if we're not letting people see who we are? [Aaron] Well, we can't. [Heidi] We don't. [Aaron] That's the point is, I don't want to grow and therefore I don't tell anyone or show anyone who I am. [Jennifer] But a marriage after God wants to grow. [Aaron] Exactly. [Jennifer] So a marriage after God's going to be doing this. You touched on a point about your church not facilitating that easy fellowship time currently. And so for people who are listening right now, what would you say is an action step for them to be an initiator in this, so that they're not waiting around, waiting for an invitation or waiting for it to be easy. What can someone do today? What can a couple do today to-- [Aaron] Be the starters-- [Jennifer] To be the starters of-- [Aaron] Be the initiator. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Aaron] Do what Tom did and get up and walk over and put his arm around us. [Jennifer] Yeah. [Tom] Yeah, I think the first and easy start for me would be at a church you're at, you obviously, if you don't, if you go in and out of that building and don't connect or talk to anybody, you're doing yourself and that body a disservice. So it'd be just connecting very simply with people at the church. Again, maybe somebody that you have, when you pick up your kids from childcare, obviously there's somewhere you can connect. There's so many spots to just start there. The other might be just friends in general. And Aaron, you brought up a point, the autonomy. There's something to it, right, where there's a couple of good friends of mine who I'm not as extreme as this, but literally don't like to talk to somebody. And it's funny though when you ask the question, well, what happens when you're out in public and there's a Christian connection of sorts, like somebody mentions something or you see somebody praying and somebody mentions it to you. There's an instant spark, there's an instant connection because out in the world when you find somebody who has that fearlessness of being able to say, yeah, I'm a Christian, or lives it out in front of you, there's a spark that you automatically have a bond. And so at your church, I think it's the easiest spot to have where it's reached out, somebody needs somebody or friends that you have now that you know are believers. Talk to them about getting together in a marriage study, whether it be one of your guys' books, whether it be something on DVD where there's a series going on, just starting somewhere or getting together on a bi-weekly basis just to hang, to chat. Because from that, as you guys know we used to do, we used to have dinners at the house, from that just hanging out, will spur those conversations and start something that you can then morph into, hey, why don't we start getting together on a weekly basis or bi-weekly basis. [Aaron] So true. I'm gonna take one of your guys' strategies. You guys had an open invitation to us to come over to eat with you guys. And not everyone is gonna, like you said, not everyone takes you up, but you said, hey, come over. And we said yes. So there was times that we went over and you didn't even know we were coming over. We just, we just texted you when we were around the corner. Was like, hey, hope dinner's ready. [Tom] You guys make it sound like that's the exception. That might've been the rule, that it was, you guys popped in a lot, and again, we loved it. It was not, we do it to people now. We'll just show up at their house with ice cream or something. [Aaron] They're like, uh-- [Tom] Yeah, their faces, they're not happy to see us. And then it ends up being a half hour, hour visit and laughing and fun and then we leave, and we'll get a, hey, thanks for stopping by, even though we showed up at the door. There's been many wives who looked at me like, what are you doing here? So yeah, it's-- [Aaron] Yeah. I think it's just the, it's not common for people 'cause we think like, oh no, you don't want to bother, you don't want to invade someone's privacy. You don't want to. But I think that's what we're supposed to do as brothers and sisters. Now, we don't want to step over boundaries and be rude and be, but like actually go into, hey, I'm in the neighborhood, would you love, I'd love to bring you a coffee. Hey, I'm grabbing a doughnut, you want one? Or a breakfast sandwich or whatever it is, just to spark that. You guys were a great example of that, opening up your home to us, giving us an invitation to be over and actually following through with it and making a meal with us and making it a night. Like we would stay at your house until two o'clock in the morning sometimes. [Woman] Sometimes we-- [Aaron] This was before kids. [Woman] Yeah. [Aaron] But yeah, I think that's a great idea. Just starting where you're at, looking around at you and saying, hey, there's a bunch of believers around me. I should not be hiding. There should be no reason that I can't go spark up a conversation and say, who are you? How can we know each other more? [Jennifer] And in this chapter of the book, I share a story of when Heidi invited me over to her house for one of the first times that we would actually spend girl time together-- [Aaron] This is a good story, yeah. [Jennifer] And I don't want to give too much away because I want them to read it, but I basically said I was busy and felt the conviction of the Lord prompt my heart to call you back, Heidi, and I had to apologize for lying and I did go over there. And so I just want to share that briefly because I think so many times, we do excuse ourselves or justify why we can't hang out or maybe we're afraid or maybe it's too uncomfortable. But I just want the people listening right now to know it is so worth it. It's worth it to get out of your comfort zone and it's worth it to build these friendships and these relationships with other believers because they will impact our lives for the better. [Aaron] Yeah, just like you guys have impacted our life. And in what you're saying, Jennifer, it makes me think of this. How many times have I said, hey, why don't you call so and so and see if they want to hang out, and you say, no, they're doing this thing today or they have this-- [Jennifer] I give other people excuses. [Aaron] And I tell them, I'm like, did they say that? And she's like, well, no. And I'm like, so they didn't tell you no? So I think sometimes when we feel that nudge, that Holy Spirit draw to reach out and to call or to connect with, and we say, no, they're probably this or they're probably that, and we say no for people before they say no. And to avoid that, to let the person say no. [Tom] To this day, that's me and Heidi. I think one of the better compliments she was given, whether it was a compliment or not, was you're a spiritual nuisance, because she doesn't let, she won't let you off the hook. [Jennifer] That's true. [Tom] She'll keep coming-- [Aaron] It's true, Heidi's got a gift. [Tom] It's truly a gift of God to her. It annoys the heck out of me sometimes. But especially when we're trying to be somewhere. [Aaron] But look at the fruit in your life because of it. [Tom] Yeah, exactly. So I have to balance that when I do get annoyed and remember how it's blessed me. But yeah, I mean, she's very good at this and doesn't, kind of tracks people down. [Aaron] So cool. [Jennifer] Awesome. Okay you guys, well, as we wrap up this awesome interview, in your own words, what is a marriage after God? [Heidi] Honestly, I think a marriage after God is putting God first and not your spouse and not other people, not celebrities, not your own image, but putting God first in your marriage to bless yourself, bless your marriage, bless other people. Just really living for God and not for the world. [Tom] What does that look like? I had a conversation with our daughter two days ago. We were driving back from somewhere and she says, so you love God first and then mommy and then us. And I said, yeah, it doesn't make sense, does it. And she says, no, it doesn't. Because one time I was a stupid dad and I answered the question honestly when she said, well, who's your favorite girl? And I answered mommy immediately. To an eight year old at the time, that was a really stupid answer on my part. But I mean, it was just not smart because it broke her heart and I had to try to come back and explain that to her because she's eight, she's not supposed to completely grasp that yet-- [Aaron] I don't have faith like that yet-- [Tom] But yes, sure, and a couple of days ago in the car, I said, it doesn't make sense and here's why. It's because God wants your focus on him. But in doing that, he opens you up to everything else and gives you a greater appreciation, gives you a greater understanding and gives you a greater love for other things. And so by mommy and daddy focusing on God first, it allows us to be better husband and wife to each other and allows us to be a better mommy and daddy to you. Even though a lot of times you probably don't think we're that great, that's what it does. And I said, and it's hard for you understand, I understand that, and you won't until you are married or have kids, but in the end, people have asked, why have we had such a great marriage. And it hasn't been perfect, but it's been the best decision I ever made in my life. And for a male to say that to another male, in our day and age is, Aaron, I'm sure you see it on people's faces when you do it. They look at you like you're crazy. And yeah, it's the absolute best thing I ever did in my life, and we just, if we focus on God first, right, though Sunday mornings you don't feel like getting up and going to church and you do and you walk into a sermon that's on marriage and you get, and God just talks to you there. It's putting him first whether you want to or not on that particular day. None of us are perfect. And then it just, everything else unlocks. Churches, I know I'm rambling. Churches know this fact. If they want to grow their church, they can get the wife, that's fine, and you'll get the kids maybe. But if you get the husband, you get the entire family and that's how you grow your church number, and that's a different topic, but again, if as a husband-- [Aaron] No, what you're saying is husbands need to be leading spiritually and setting the tone in their home. That's good. [Tom] Yeah. Before you rudely cut me off, what I was saying is, if we as husbands lead, it's infectious. It doesn't always happen, but it's infectious. The wife then follows, then the kids then follow and it's a beautiful thing. And I've noticed for me, if I slip and I'm not focusing on God, my house slips. So long winded answer to your question is both of you focusing on God, it's funny how the rest just seems to, not easily sometimes, but it does, it falls into place. [Aaron] Good. Thank you, that was really good. [Jennifer] That's so good. Thank you guys so much for sharing with us today. We just want to invite everyone to take a moment to join us in prayer. Dear Lord, thank you for the gift of your body. Thank you for the gift of fellowship and friendship. May we be people who are motivated by love to reach out and be a friend to others. We pray we would have the courage and confidence to be people who welcome others in, who are transparent, who are there for others, who lift others up and who pray for others. Use our marriages to be an encouragement to other marriages. Use us as a team to bring you glory. Help us to never live in isolation. Help us to never be divided. We pray the enemy and we pray our own flesh wouldn't get it in the way of fellowship. May our desire to participate in your body increase even more. May the way we treat one another be a light and an example to the rest of the world. In Jesus' name. Amen. [Aaron] Amen. So Tom and Heidi, we love you guys. We miss you guys. [Tom] Thanks for having us. [Aaron] We need to see you soon. [Tom] Sincerely. [Woman] Miss you guys. [Aaron] And thank you so much for giving us some time today and in blessing everyone that's listening. So hey everyone that's listening, thank you so much for joining us on this sixth week of the series, and we look forward to having you next week. Did you enjoy today's show? If you did, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a review on iTunes. Also, if you're interested, you can find many more encouraging stories and resources at MarriageAfterGod.com, and let us help you cultivate an extraordinary marriage.

Tom & Kerri Podcast (Wed, Feb 27/19) - Today w/ Tom & Kerri with Vicki / The gang shares their invention ideas...some better than others / An unfortunate name for a nail salon / The drinking habits of moms / The must-haves for camping (according to Tom) / You'll never look at bees the same way again / BTBO for Bryan Adams and another URGENT call / The 'Casting Call' / And, the 'Drive 5

Download Tom Hatsis is an intellectual, occultist, psychedelic user and advocate from Portland, Oregon. In the show, Joe and Tom talk about his new book about microdosing. Joe prepares listeners about the controversial topic, magick, which is highly discussed in the show. Witch craft, western shamanism, old religion and magick are all mentioned during the conversation. Tom is a coordinator for Sanctum Psychedelica, a psychedelic club in Portland. 3 Key Points: Tom’s book Microdosing Magic is a book of templates for people to fill in the blank according to what works for them Magic isn't the ‘hocus pocus’ witchy stuff that people always assume, it's actually mind hacking, reframing and neurogenesis, that every individual is born with the ability to tap into Magic is a great way to create containers to frame our psychedelic experiences Support the show Patreon Leave us a review on iTunes Share us with your friends – favorite podcast, etc Join our Facebook group - Psychedelics Today group – Find the others and create community. Navigating Psychedelics Show Notes About Tom Tom’s Book - Microdosing Magic: A Psychedelic Spellbook Tom thinks having a childlike wonder and being curious helped him write his book He has written 4 books, 3 have been in psychedelic topics Tom’s background - a part of the Roller derby background since 2005 His first book was called The Roller Derby: A Sensation that caused a Book, the Confessions of a Roller Derby Mascot. Then he got into psychedelic history and wrote The Witch’s Ointment, Psychedelic Mystery Traditions and his newest book, Microdosing Magic. Portland is a great place for the psychedelic renaissance Microdosing Magic Tom said we should be using psychedelics in a magical way Joe agrees saying when using psychedelics we should be flexible philosophically Joe mentions the Robert Anton Wilson reality tunnels We all have a B.S. (Belief System) and then reality tunnels are the marxist sunglasses and the capitalist sunglasses and feminist sunglasses, instead of having 40 glasses to see behind bias, we all have our own pair of shades Microdosing is a tool that helps people become childlike, more genius Magic Microdosing Magic is a book of templates for people to fill in the blank to what works with them Tom never tells people what to do with psychedelics, he is offering insight and techniques Using his own techniques, him and his partner are about to win a guinness world record “If microdosing is like a healthy diet and magic is like exercise, that's great. But what happens when you put healthy diet with exercise? You have something far more powerful than those two things could have been by themselves. That's how microdosing magic works.” Magic = mind hacking, re-framing and neurogenesis The Four Gifts Tom talks about ‘The Four Gifts’ in his book They make up the beginning of his personal magical system that he has cultivated over his lifetime Carl Sagan quote, “The cosmos are within us, we are a way for the universe to know itself” Tom agrees strongly with that saying, he thinks we are microdoses of that cosmic magic and from it, we've received 3 immaterial gifts, Intellect, Emotion and Will, however, due to our evolution in physical bodies, we've inherited a fourth gift, action The magical system is about aligning your intellect, emotion and will, so that when we take action, we are acting in pure magic Magic is super powerful, not something that happens at Disney World. It's a very real thing that every individual is born with the ability to tap into Orenda - the magic that you are born with Microdosing Magic is Tom’s small contribution to bettering the world Joe says there are so many people that practice subtle magic and don't even know it; in catholic religion, in yoga practice Tom has a friend who ‘doesn't believe in magic’, who is a hardcore material reductionist, who has a ‘lucky hat’ Tom - “This isn't for people with claws and fangs, magic is for anybody who recognizes their own power and wants to harness their power to make their lives and the world around them a better place” Neurogenesis, better firing, and re-framing happens in a person’s brain after consuming Psilocybin, Lions Mane and Reishi Tom says he was addicted to coffee, and after using Microdosing Magic, he hasn't needed a cup of coffee on 8 months because of his new neural pathways Joe jokes about overdosing on coffee for a few months on his coffee addiction Tom jokes back that he’d just drink it out of the pot Creative Genius Dr. George Land study - 98% of 5 year old scored in the creative genius category in the same test that 32 year-olds only scored 2% The modern education system robs us of our creative genius that we all had when we were kids, but at no fault to the teachers. The education system, buys these education models that just don't work Tom - “You have to use the internet wisely and not foolishly, to educate yourself and not de-educate yourself” The Book Tour Joe asks about the most interesting questions Tom has received on tour Most people ask about dose sizes and safety questions Tom explains that he gets nervous about certain questions because he isn't a medical professional or a therapist Tom “If you wouldn't take a psychedelic dose, don’t start microdosing” Microdosing Tom has been microdosing on and off for over 20 years “We didn't call it microdosing, we called it being broke, we could only afford 1/8th of acid, so we split it up. We felt way more energy, I started writing way more songs, I couldn't put my guitar down. It sparks that creativity” Joe says it's never been a better time for the psychedelic and microdosing renaissance Cannabis is now legal in 13 states FDA just approved mushrooms for PTSD in Canada MDMA is in phase 3 testing Tom says people in Silicon Valley, and believes people in Congress and DC are microdosing, they just can't talk about it He mentions a talk he just did in Salem, a very conservative place, and no one had any questions. And then after the talk, everybody came up to him privately and asked him their questions Tim Leary made a joke on Liberals not wanting to ‘risk face’ Joe comments on Tom’s book saying it was playful, inspiring, and not threatening like some magic can be Tom says we don't have villages for support anymore, we have community which has replaced that Sanctum Psychedelia’s main focus is community building Tom uses an example of people going to Peru, taking ayahuasca, and because they don't have that mystical framework, they come back to their regular lives and say “now what”? That's why integration and community are so important Tom says he’d love to see ayahuasca and ibogaine clinics with all the great results people have received from their heroine or cigarette addictions Tom’s favorite presentation ever was Mark Haden’s blueprint on the future of psychedelics psychotherapy Mark Haden's Presentation on Psycehdelics Mark Haden Psychedelic Reneissance Cannabis and the War on Drugs Tom likes to buy his cannabis directly from his farmer, he prefers to not have the government interfere He says Gene Simmons from KISS has been so anti cannabis and now all of a sudden is promoting cannabis Joe brings in the drug war issue, or the issue of people being put in jail for nonviolent crimes (cannabis) Tom brings in another issue, saying that if a person is charged for drugs at one point in time that later becomes legal, they aren't allowed freedom because of the fact that they did the crime during the time where it was illegal Racism and the war on drugs really bothers Tom Amanita and the True History of Christian Psychedelic History Predominant Paradigm - the ‘Holy Mushroom’ Tom says there aren't mushrooms in Christian art after doing the historical research Source He has debunked the Amanita Muscaria Santa Claus connection Psychedelic Santa Debate with John Rush The Mushroom in Christian Art: The Identity of Jesus in the Development of Christianity People say the Amanita Muscaria and Santa Claus outfit are the same colors, but Santa’s outfit comes from the American Flag Carl Ruck Dionysus in Thrace: Ancient Entheogenic Themes in the Mythology and Archeology of Northern Greece, Bulgaria and Turkey Psychedelic Christianity - a scholarly debate a scholarly debate pt. 2 Final Thoughts Tom - “Psychedelics are an excellent way to change your mind and yourself” Magic is a great way to create containers to frame difficult psychedelic experiences. It’s about putting new frames on your reality Links Tom's website Instagram Facebook Youtube Tom's Book Check out this FREE online course, "Introduction to Psychedelics" About Tom . Thomas Hatsis is an author, lecturer, and historian of witchcraft, magic, Western religions, contemporary psychedelia, entheogens, and medieval pharmacopeia. In his spare time he visits rare archives, slings elixirs, and coaches roller derby.

Volkswagen Team Shant Bashian has been a Volkswagen guy, thru and thru, for nearly his entire adult life.  And sure he'll help you get the best deal possible on one, but perhaps more importantly, he'll detail from his own experience what makes every VW special.  He'll point out the very little things that make the biggest difference when it comes to what's referred to as the ‘fit and finish' of a vehicle. In this iDriveSoCal Podcast, we profile Ontario VW's newest team member.  Formerly of both Puente Hills and Pasadena Volkswagen; Shant shares his love or the VW brand and why he chose Ontario VW as his new home. And Shant is highly accessible – you can email him SBashian [at] OntarioVW [dot] com.  He loves meeting new customers that inevitably become his friends.  Click play below to hear the details from Shant himself! ***Transcript*** Recorded August 21, 2018  in Ontario, CA Top SoCal Volkswagen Team Adds To Its Ranks Shant: I've had three Touaregs, two Jettas, one Passat, two CCs. And, just recently in September, I surprised my wife by replacing our Touareg with a 2018 Atlas. Volkswagen has always been softer rubber materials on the dash, the doors, the buttons of the windows, the way they feel, the material. It makes all the difference.  These are the little things that VW looks at, but it brings out the quality. When you drive a Volkswagen, and you drive a different brand vehicle, you definitely immediately feel the difference. "I've had three Touaregs, two Jettas, one Passat, two CCs. And, just recently in September, I surprised my wife by replacing our Touareg with a 2018 Atlas." Tom: Welcome to iDriveSoCal the podcast, all about mobility from the automotive capital of the United States, southern California. Tom Smith here, out in the Los Angeles suburb of Ontario, California at our good friends, Ontario Volkswagen. And, joining me for this iDriveSoCal podcast is the newest team member of Ontario Volkswagen, Sales Manager Shant Bashian. Shant: Yes, sir. Tom: Welcome to Ontario Volkswagen, and thank you for joining me for the iDriveSoCal podcast. Shant: Thank you for having me, it's a pleasure. Tom: Ontario Volkswagen's a fantastic partner of iDriveSoCal, and Shant is a fantastic VW guy, has been a long time here in southern California. Previously at a couple of other Volkswagen stores, Volkswagen Pasadena, as well as Volkswagen Puente Hills. So I know the team here is very excited to have you, and again, welcome. Shant is always available!  SBashian [at] OntarioVW [dot] com Volkswagen Team: 101 Shant: Thank you. I'm excited to be here. Tom: So why don't... What we wanna do with this podcast is really let people know, this is a profile of you, right, dealer people. Car buying, quite honestly ... You've been a buyer, right? Shant: Absolutely. Tom: Before being in the business. Shant: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I've walked into dealers. Tom Smith: Yeah, and so you know having worn that hat, it can be a scary proposition, it can be anxiety-filled. Ontario Volkswagen, as well as everybody that we work with at iDriveSoCal, we're all about kind of pulling down those walls, pulling down those barriers and creating that level of comfort. Let's talk a little bit about your background in the automotive business. I know that your first entry into the automotive business was actually on the service side, which is pretty interesting. First he sold VW's then started driving them and hasn't looked back! | Shant Bashian of Ontario VW When The VW Team Grew Shant: You can say throughout the midway in my career because I went through 13 years in sales, then I tried service for several months. So I wanted to experience the service side, and I'm glad I did, I learned a lot back there. Tom: You know, I think, this is my personal perception, but also as a consumer, I buy a car... And I work with dealers, so I'm a little bit different. But, I buy a car,

Muckenthaler Motor Car Festival  The Muckenthaler Motor Car Festival is Orange County's oldest running auto show and one of iDriveSoCal's favorites. And that's because our very own Professor, Clinton Quan, has it at the top of his to-do list.  So, the two-day event happens only once a year. Upcoming Muckenthaler Motor Car Festival event details HERE. As the local, Southern California, summertime auto show season heats up we dispatched the Good Professor to the Muckenthaler Mansion.  Hear the details in this iDriveSoCal Podcast. ***Transcript*** Recorded May 21, 2018 @ Benztown Studios in Glendale, CA Orange County's Oldest Running Car Show Clinton: The Muckenthaler Motor Car Festival, they say it's the oldest running auto show in North Orange County. It's a two-day event, and that's why it's called a car festival. On Saturdays, it's hot rods and customs. I always go on Sunday, the big day, the Concours d'Elegance. These are the car shows that I really enjoy attending the most, are the ones that are once a year, because it really is something that's special. Tom: Welcome to iDriveSoCal, the podcast all about mobility from the automotive capital of the United States, Southern California. Tom Smith here, and I am joined by The Professor, Mr. Clinton Quan. Say hello Clinton. Clinton: Hi Tom. Tom: Today's topic is going to be an auto show, a very special auto show that The Professor attended, what was that, just yesterday, I guess it was this past weekend, huh? Clinton: Yes. It was just yesterday. Tom: The Muckenthaler Motor Car Festival in Fullerton, California. That was at the Muckenthaler Estate, which is now a museum. Clinton: Yes. It's a museum, cultural center art gallery. Tom: Okay, very cool. And you've been to this show before right? Clinton: I've been the show a number of years. It's one of the shows that I attend annually. Tom: Tell us all about it. Fullerton, California - Muckenthaler Motor Car Festival Clinton: Well, the Muckenthaler Motor Car Festival, they say it's the oldest running auto show in North Orange County. It's a two day event, and that's why it's called a car festival. On Saturdays it's hot rods and customs. I always go on Sunday, the big day, the Concours d'Elegance. Tom: You didn't go on Saturday this year. Have you ever been on Saturday? Clinton: I've never attended on Saturday. I always go on Sunday. Sunday is the big day with all the classic cars and sports cars. There's also a big Jaguar showing there, The Jaguar Club. That's probably one of their biggest events of the year. Tom: Yeah, and speaking of which, I was just looking at Clinton's pictures. If you've seen Clinton in some of the images on iDriveSoCal, you know that he can bust out some pretty interesting outfits. I like to call them costumes. Clinton was definitely in full regalia for yesterday's event. He was dressed as if he was just out of a James Bond movie, driving a Jaguar perhaps, something English, with the top down through the English countryside. But, another fantastic costume as always for The Professor at an automotive show. Clinton: Oh, thanks Tom. Tom: Tell us about your experience there this Sunday. And it's just once a year right? Muckenthaler Mansion Clinton: Yeah, it's once a year. These are the car shows that I really enjoy attending the most, are the ones that are once a year, because it really is something that's special. It's one day... Well, the Concours, it's a one-day event. I usually get there early, so I can take some really nice photos. There was a special appearance by the original Batmobile. I don't know if this was the actual one used in the television show, but it looked just like it, even the interior. Tom: Nice. Clinton: That was really, really cool. That definitely made my morning. Tom: We're going to try something new with this podcast. If you listen, sometimes everybody listens to podcasts a little bit diffe...

It's the inaugural episode of the podcast and we're coming out swinging! We start off by discussing the one thing that seems to pre-occupy all of our clients whenever they go into the process of buying or selling a home -- FEAR. You'll find ways to overcome being so afraid and embracing the process, the most primary of which comes from a very odd source -- the works of Plato! Tom then takes a look at how investors took advantage of everyone's fear of the market during the crash, when everyone was running the opposite way, and made a killing buying houses when no one else was even thinking about it. We then start the conversation about what types of agents you want to avoid (the Weak Agents or WA's -- and Salesman Agent SA's) and what type of value an agent should bring to your home purchase or sale. We wrap up with our 10 Commandments or promises we pledge to provide to our audience. It's a jam-packed first episode and we're incredibly excited to be bringing it to you! [spp-transcript] Announcer: Welcome to the Clarified Realty Podcast — exposing the real estate secrets your agent doesn't want you to know. Here's your host Tom Clary. Tom: Hi there and welcome to our inaugural podcast Clarified Realty episode 001. We're so happy to took the time to give us a listen. I'm hoping that we'll have some great adventures ahead of us and we'll be able to learn a lot about the great big world of real estate together. Some introductions are in order. My name's Tom Clary. I'm a licensed real estate agent here in the state of California. My practice is located specifically in the beautiful San Fernando Valley. I'm a valley boy, born and bred, and while I handle real estate transactions in pretty much all areas of Los Angeles — Downtown, Hollywood — this is really my specialty. I work with both buyers and sellers and my office is located in the tony and prestigious enclave of Calabasas, California. You might know it as the home of a Kardashian or two and it's pretty much the Beverly Hills of the Los Angeles suburbs. Joining me today and on the rest of our podcasts will be my friend, sidekick and amazing lender, Ron Bruno. Hi there, Ron. Why don't you give us a little about yourself. Ron: Tom, thank you so much. My name's Ron Bruno. I'm with the firm, Guaranteed Rate here in beautiful Pasadena. I'm a Chicago guy originally — born and bred. We moved, my family we moved. when I was seven. Grew up in Hilton Head Island, South Carolina a nice little resort town — and as my wife likes to say, I'm a cabana boy — she she married a cabana boy. It is true. Tom: It happens! The dream happens. Ron: It does happen, exactly. I went to college at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia and moved out here fourteen years ago. Tom: Wow, you've been out here a while. Ron: I've been here for a while. I moved originally for a girl and stayed for the weather. Yes. Tom: Understandable. Sometimes the girls change. The weather here in California relatively stays the same. Ron: It's true and my professional background I for the first ten years I was in various realms in sales and marketing. Wy first job actually was advertising. Tom: OK. Ron: I've been in professional, personal finance and professional services for over eight years now starting in wealth management and moved over to the wonderful world of residential lending. Tom: Awesome, awesome, Ron… And we'll be going more in depth with Ron in our upcoming podcast number 002, where we'll be taking more of a deep dive into mortgages and how they are really the first sign post on our trip up the mountain of home ownership. Yes, even before talking to a real estate agent like me. But for this episode this is really going to be the two of us giving you a preview of what we're really trying to achieve here and give you an idea of what to expect moving forward. You know, when I first spoke to Ron about starting this podcast I told him that I wanted to make sure that if we were going to do you know to get together and talk to you guys once a week to humbly request the gift of your very valuable attention, I wanted to make sure that we were saying something completely different. I wanted it to be something that had a completely different voice and point-of-view. It had to be nothing that you could hear on another real estate-centric podcast or any other real estate content. If you're going to take your very precious time to download this podcast, how can I just, you know give you information you could just hear in a hundred of other places? And Ron and I really, you know, talked about it and I started circling around different concepts and nothing we really came up was really clicking. So I thought about it and I thought about it and I started thinking about all the clients I've worked with. Was there something about them that seemed to be a common thread? Was there something on, you know, either the buy side or the sell side that seemed to keep on coming up? And then it hit me. There was something that seemed to keep on coming up, over and over, every deal for whatever reason it just for some reason couldn't escape it. Every potential buyer I talked to was preoccupied with it. There was something here and I thought, well I could do something about that — and that thing that kept on coming back and back and back — fear. It's such a simple concept but it seems to rear its ugly head constantly in real estate. I mean everywhere I looked in my business I saw it. Fear about timing. You know? “Is now the right time to buy or sell or should I wait until next year?” Fear about inspections and disclosures… “Uh, what if I buy this amazing house but then I find out there is mold in the walls?” It's the one thing that united all these deals and it was an element of fear and I could only imagine that this fear sets in even before the process gets started, before people even make the decision to buy or sell a home. It paralyzes them. They sit in their studio apartment all huddled up on the couch under a blanket, saying “Oh, I sure would like to buy a house but what's the best choice? Should I rent? Should I buy? What if I lose my shirt, you know, like all those people did when the bubble burst?” “I'd love to start looking for a house but then I'd have to talk to one of those awful real estate agents giving me a hard sales pitch and I'm sure they won't leave me alone!” Actually that one is really a scary one. Ron: That's true. Tom: But look don't get me wrong. All of these are valid concerns, but they shouldn't ever be fears. At the end of the day, buying or selling a home or condo is not rocket surgery. Trust me I've spoken or done transactions with agents that I would consider to be the absolute best and brightest agents in the business, I mean the cream of the crop. And trust me no one is mistaking them for Mensa members or Nobel laureates. If they can understand the process, so can you, right? So getting back to fear. Look… Let's take a look at really, really good example. What do you think is the number one question I get asked over and over and over again as an agent? The first question anyone asks me when I walk into a party or some sort of networking event? Ron, you've probably got the same… The same story. What's the number one question you get asked whenever someone sees you that hasn't seen you for a while? Ron: How's the market? Tom: Yep — or is now a good time to buy? Or, is now a good time to sell? I mean am I right? It mean it's sort of cliche. Ron: It is. It is. You get people asking questions about, you know, where rates are going… What's the Fed going to do? You know, is now the right time? Should we wait? Is the… You know, are we in a bubble? Tom: Right. And it's and its foundation is really coming from fear. It's coming from a place of either, “I could lose my shirt or you know am I going to make some sort of mistake?” So, if someone comes up to me and asks me this… I mean, I'm talking about a person that that actually wants to buy, right? Not, you know, somebody who's just kind of, you know, waffling or whatever. They actually do want to buy, but they — they're asking this question seriously… What they're really saying to me is, “Listen, Tom, if I buy my house now, will I lose my money?” Fear. That's what's really at the root of it — and I'm going to let you in on the secret… About seventy to eighty percent of agents are not going to be exactly forthcoming about it if the market isn't going that person's way. They're going to twist it and turn it in a way that still gets you hooked. So, I mean, seriously? What do you think they're going to say, right? You think they're going to go, “I don't know — I hope you don't like that shirt you're wearing ‘cause you're going to lose it if you buy a house right now.” I mean, no. They're going to say whatever they can to get you to sign on the dotted line. Period. And they are everything I despise about this business and I'm sure you despise it too. So that's why it's so important you can find an agent who you can trust. And we'll go into this into a more in depth in a future episode — ways to weed out the good agents from the bad — but right now we're going to stay on topic about what this whole podcast is going to be about. So which is the fear — what can you do to reduce that paralyzing fear? Well, when I was in college at U.S.C. I took what I guess could be considered a general philosophy course, where we read Socrates and all the great philosophers and I basically learned how to argue with people using the Socratic method, which pissed my parents off to no end, right? Because I'd like, I'd come home and they'd say, “Clean your room.” and I'd say, “Is there really a room?” But there's one thing that always stuck with me. In the class that we read one of these books was called the Protagoras by Plato and I can't remember what the general gist of the whole thing was but there was this one part that really stuck with me and I think it's really important to this conversation. And, in that part, Plato — he's writing as Socrates, but it's Plato — is convincing his disciples that, you know, the five important human virtues: there was courage, temperance, holiness, justice, and wisdom — are all just names for the same exact thing. And his disciples, you know, they like go crazy. They disagree with him. “Oh oh. Whoa, whoa Socrates! How could these be the same things? How on earth could courage and wisdom be the same thing? That makes absolutely no sense!” But then Socrates, or Plato, goes through and systematically proves it. If someone has knowledge of the battlefield, they in turn have courage. If they make themselves educated about successful tactics and successful strategies, they have courage. Or, should we say — a lack of fear, right? What Plato was was trying to really teach us was that cowardice is really ignorance — and more importantly even — ignorance is cowardice. Ron: That's deep. It's a little deep — but I'll tell you something, it struck me so hard, even when I was eighteen, that I still carry it around with me, every single day — that basically, the more knowledge that I have the more courageous I'm going to be. So, anyway… If we, if we look at and if we look at real estate from this perspective — who do you think are the folks out there that aren't afraid? Well, it's the guy or girl with the most knowledge about the real estate market and real estate period. They're the ones that have you know taken time to educate themselves. The person who understands the battlefield as it were. They understand that fear keeps the scaredy cats on the sidelines while they jump in and they grab all the best deals. Look, after the crash, it's understandable that people got skittish. I get it. I mean people watched as friends and family, I mean lost their homes and lives were turned upside down. It only makes sense that there be a level of fear when people thought about the possibility of re-entering the market. But here's the thing. There were a lot of people who took advantage of this. They sat back until everyone was so afraid to buy and they swept in and basically bought everything with four walls. Usually with cash. Now, what do we have? Now, there's still a lack of inventory out there. We went from months worth of shadow inventory just sitting there to basically being in the desert looking for an affordable glass of water. I mean we're dealing with a housing shortage at least at least here in Los Angeles and the San Fernando Valley that has made home prices climb and climb. I mean sure I'm starting to kind of see that stabilize a bit but when things are all scary out there there were there were very few people that came in, investors, that took advantage of that atmosphere of fear and ate our lunch. I'm going to come… I'm going to come right out here and I'm going to let you know that I'm firmly in the camp folks who believe that homeownership is a good thing. I mean, it would be sort of weird for a real estate agent to be bearish on homeownership. So, right? You buy a house you keep it for a period time and you get more money than you started with. You can make changes and additions that add value and historically, at least, historically we're talking about an asset that appreciates. It gets more valuable as time goes on. Not to mention you don't flush your money down the toilet once a month in the form of rent. When you buy a home the money effectively goes theoretically back into your pocket. Yes, you need to come up with a larger portion of money to begin with in the form of a down payment and the payment each month may be a bit more but it's really hard to argue against the benefits. Ron: You know, Tom… You bring up a really good point and back when I was in the Wealth Management days… You know I was in wealth management in two thousand and eight, if you can believe that's when I actually got my start. Tom: Geez, you're old. Ron: It's like I timed that absolutely perfectly. But what was really interesting is you saw people like Warren Buffett and they saw companies and they saw a stock where that company was on sale. So, the value of that company didn't necessarily mean that it lost half the value. Japan, when they had the tsunami the E.T.F. for the Japanese economy didn't all of a sudden go away after the tsunami and it just so happened the next day that E.T.F. was down twenty five percent. So, real investors… They're looking at value when it's on sale and they are you know it just you know your wife she goes to Bloomingdale's and sees something that's half off doesn't mean that, “Oh my gosh, you know, the value of that bracelet is now half of what it's worth.” No. She sees it on sale and that's what investors do they see things that are on sale and when it comes to real estate when it comes to stock, there are a lot of people who see it as it's all of a sudden worth half the value. Tom: Yeah. And we'll go. I'm going to go into that in depth a little bit later on and he's but he's entirely right. I mean it's it's like a let me get to that but what I'm what I'm getting at is well look I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist at all, right? I don't own a tinfoil hat to keep the aliens from talking to me and I don't think there's a one percent that is doing all they can to keep the other ninety nine percent down at least in any sort of organized way, but because of the scarcity and the scarce nature of real estate, we're fast becoming a nation of haves and have-nots. And when I say scarce I mean there's, there's only so much real estate out there, folks. Housing starts aren't what they used to be. Not a lot of new houses out there. Developers aren't building like they used to and when they're building it's predominantly rentals. Right? That's important. That means there are less and less places to buy and if you don't jump on the train that's speeding by you might not ever be able to get on. When the economy was burning down and and everyone else was grabbing their hats and heading for the door — a lot of very smart, informed people were running toward the fire and end up making a lot of money in the process. They didn't let fear overwhelm them and now they're in the catbird seat, holding properties that were worth more than they were then you know they were worth even two, three years ago. Even though… Even though you're not here when we're recording this I can already hear a lot of you and you're basically probably saying, “Hey, buddy… I'd love to buy a house… A condo… But I, but I can't afford it. I don't have the downpayment. I don't even make that kind of money to make a monthly payment in this market.” I get it. I get it. But that's — that's not what we're talking about here and we'll go into depth in later episodes about how you can go from having zero in the bank to saving enough for a down payment or or how you can use a down payment assistant plan… Assistance plan to purchase a home. Ron will definitely be talking about that later but you can make it happen if you want to but I'm not I'm not going to B.S. you — it's hard freaking work and takes a lot of sacrifice but it's totally worth it. But we'll get into that later. So I keep on talking about things we're going to go back into later, but I swear, we're going to get back to them later. So, so no… What I'm talking about now though is I'm talking to those of you that are still standing on the sidelines and you're hemming and you're hawing — and, Oooo… Is this the right time to buy? Should I wait another six weeks? And you're vacillating back and forth… I'm going to let you in on a little secret. If that's what you're doing, you probably don't really want to buy a house in the first place. Because — want to know how I know this? Because you didn't come off the bench during the last bottom of the market. You already missed the chance — this quote-unquote bottom you keep waiting for! So, don't B.S. me and tell me that you're some sort of junior economist or something. “I keep on hearing I should wait until next summer to buy.” Well, you know what? Those folks still out there buying houses know something you don't: you buy the property, not the market! Alright, and what the hell does that mean? OK. Well, let me give you an example. And this is right off of… This stands on basically what Ron was just talking about it was it was Saks Fifth Avenue and the bracelet. But, I'm going to I'm going to put in more kind of every day corner market kind of terms. Right? So, so you… You've probably been to a Whole Foods, right? Now, let's say this Whole Foods is right next door to a Ralphs or a Vons, right? Something like that. Now most of the time because I am not made of money, I'm going to head over to the place where there's lower prices — usually the Vons or the Ralphs. I'm not a moron. Am I going to spend more money for almost everything just for the honor of walking home with a snazzy green canvas Whole Foods bag on my arm? No. But let's say one day I'm walking into the Ralph's and I glance over and I see that Whole Foods is selling bags of grapes for fifty cents a pound — and that's a really good price. Do I say, “Oh, no, no, no… That market is way too expensive. I'm not going over there!” Once again, Hell no! I'm going to go to Ralphs and do the majority of my shopping over there and then I'll go right on over to “Whole Paycheck” and pay you know buy a few pounds of their very tasty fifty cents a pound grapes. The same goes for real estate. You buy the property, not the market. There are a lot of savvy buyers out there still finding homes they can afford. They're not sitting on the sidelines waiting for the sea to change. No! They're out there, educating themselves every day in a way that these opportunities reveal themselves to them — and then they strike. And by the way that reminds me of one of my really big frustrations about people that want to buy but are still sitting there doing, you know, watching the world pass them by. You tell me, “Well, I'd love to do it but there's nothing I can afford out there.” Or, “I can't qualify for a loan.” Oh, really??? And what exactly are you basing that on? Have you spoken to an agent like me? Have you even given Ron a call and talked to him? Has he told you that you can't? Then how can you have any real idea about what your situation is? Because reality might be something completely different. I'm going to let you in on another big secret — for buyers? You don't have to pay us for this information! You actually don't ever have to pay us at all. That comes from the seller after you move in. So what the hell do you have to lose to pick up the phone and have us run some numbers? Or for me to look around at things that may not be on Redfin or Zillow yet. Or maybe I know of areas you haven't even thought of yet. Areas that make you say, “Oh, I didn't know this neighborhood was here!” You know, it drives me crazy! And we love those kind of clients because they give us a call that you know to find out stuff because we're like, “Cool! This sounds like someone who's actually taking the time to understand the reality of where they are!” Don't get me wrong, sometimes Ron's going to give you bad news. Or, I'm going to tell you that maybe moving into Beverly Hills isn't in the cards for you when you can only afford five hundred grand. But isn't it better to know the actual facts? Knowledge cancels out fear! It at least cancels out ignorance. Am I right, Ron? Ron: Yeah absolutely. I mean when you look at having the information at your fingertips… You can go online and run every scenario and look at what the general consensus says about your particular situation and you could paralyze yourself in fear where you're not actually really doing anything. You're just basing your situation off of what the general populace says versus actually running the hard numbers. And when I look at a client, I look at them from the standpoint of “OK, here's what you qualify for now.” Right? And if that's not the number that they're looking for, then we start talking about a path of either changing the expectations — or this is how we're going to work to get you into that position. Tom: Yeah, it's an actual getting your butt off the chair and doing something instead of sitting there and going, “Oh, I probably can't. I can't. You know? Oh, I read this and I read that…” You know, you could literally… It's like the snake eating itself. You'll never, ever, ever be able to get enough information to get you off the couch unless you actually do it. You actually have to do it and the first really good step is actually calling us and finding out. We'll be happy to tell you one way or another whether you can do it. And, by the way, I want to make sure everyone understands this. This is not some sort of you know get rich quick infomercial B.S. This is, this is an actual strategy for you to really become self-reflective enough and get the real solid information about your financial situation. You know, to overcome your fear and become a homeowner instead of just being a perpetual spectator. So, anyway alright… So what is this podcast going to be really? Well, we're going to be looking in-depth, really drilling down into each facet of the process. Whether you're a buyer or seller, you're going to hear things that could potentially give you an advantage. In each episode, we're… We're planning to a look at whatever you know whatever the topic is, whether it's escrow, title, lending — from both sides of the fence. Sort of like, you know, how Law and Order does… They do the whole police work first and then they switch sides and they go to the you know the whole court/prosecution side — that's that's what we're going to be doing here. We'll start with the buy side, discussing how you can get the best deals, things you should look out for when looking for a house. Things to look for in inspections. You know, things like that. Then we're going to switch gears and go the other way. We'll grab our sellers hat, put it on, and talk about how you can avoid certain pitfalls like disclosures and negotiating repairs and end up getting the best net for your home. On each side we will go deep to really try and provide insight and advice that you've never heard before. The last thing I want you to be thinking as you listen is is, “Jesus I've heard all this stuff before” I will struggle… You have my promise to you I will struggle with every episode to make sure that you take away incredibly valuable information that you can't get anywhere else. Another thing that I really want to do — and don't get me wrong, I'm running into very uncomfortable territory here… I want to provide a very honest look at what the real estate business is really like. For a long time now, real estate agents, Realtors — there is a difference by the way, I will tell you about what that difference is — have earned a pretty despicable reputation. They're like a very small step above used car salesman, with like new car salesman sort of running neck and neck with us — and it's incredibly well earned. Sometimes, I hear stories stories and I go. “Yep, that's why everybody hates us.” But I've got another maybe not so big surprise… Sometimes it's even how we're trained by our brokerages to do business in the first place. It's really, I mean it embarrasses me and this whole comedy of errors has a cast of characters and we'll definitely go into this more in-depth in later podcasts — but just to give you a little bit of a taste — there's basically, there are basically three types of agents. First, there's what I call the “WA” or “Weak Agent.” Generally they're the young and inexperienced agent. They just haven't been through enough deals, or they never had a good mentor, or they haven't been in the trenches long enough to really have gotten any kind of seasoning — or even worse, they just don't care about being informed or knowing about how things work. They don't learn about their area or how to analyze comps, so they can add value to your home search or your home sale. They just — like they just passed the agent exam by the hair of their chinny chin-chin, right? These kinds of agents can be really dangerous to you and can definitely end up costing you money and a lot of hassles. They make for a very stressful transaction. Then, the second type of agent is is what I call an “SA” or a “Salesman Agent” and you probably know the type if you watch Million Dollar Listing and other T.V. shows. They wear the totally slicks suits and have perfectly shaved stubble and perfectly waxed Jaguars. And by the way, they may have lots of knowledge but it really, really becomes a question of are they really using that knowledge for your best interests or is it to get the best deal or bottom line for them? After you sign the listing agreement with them are they doing the hard work? Are they there for all the inspections? For the photo shoots, are they moving furniture around to get the best shot? Are they are they making phone calls to your lender to make sure contingencies are hit on time — or did they they just make the deal and run, right? Is there some quote-unquote team, made up of usually WA's, by the way, in the background doing the work for him or her? Well this this type of agent is slightly better than the WA, they're still dangerous to you in other ways and and we'll get into that in the future podcasts. And the last type of agent is what I call the “PA” or the “Protector Agent.” This is the type of agent you should always, always be looking for. They're the ones that not only take care of issues but they take the time to make sure you understand why there are even issues in the first place. They have a portfolio of transactions behind them and have heard about most if not all of the pitfalls that might lie upon the road ahead. Every transaction is different and has its own moving parts but generally the P.A. knows how the engine works and even when there are unique and crazy curveballs they can find the best way to solve the problem and make sure you stay protected. I know I'm a protector agent because I'm looking out for problems before they even become problems. If we're going to breeze past contingency during escrow you bet your butt, I'm going to see it coming a mile away and be trying to fix the issue before it kills the deal and makes everybody's life miserable. So, look… My ultimate goal… What I want to achieve here and I think what Ron wants to achieve here as well, is that when it comes to picking an agent or a lender, I want to give you the knowledge and ability to really see through their mindset and find an agent or loan broker that is truly looking out for your best interest. Look, I'm not going to name any names. I'm not going to call anybody out, but I do think there needs to be a real self-reflectiveness in terms of agents really coming to terms with how we are perceived by Joe Home-Buyer or Josephine Home-Seller. When I'm, when I'm with my clients, I don't consider myself a salesman — like at all. I want to be more like like a professional with them, more like a doctor or a lawyer than any kind of, “Hey kid… Hey, hey, hey… Can I help you today?“ You know, B.S. salesmen. I wear a completely different hat when I'm with my clients. And yes, if I'm selling your house, I need to market or sell your property — or if I'm trying to get you into your dream house, you know, when there are ten other offers — I'm trying to sell you and your offer, but I should never be a salesman to my client. You're the person I work for. You're my boss. I'm supposed to advise you to the best of my ability and then you tell me what to do. So, we'll discuss this a lot more along the way too. Ron: You know Tom, you bring up a good point, because there's… There's two types of professionals out there. You have professionals that are transaction oriented, which means they will do anything to close the deal, right? It's A.B.C.. Yeah right. It's Glengarry Glen Ross. Always be closing. But then you have those professionals like Tom and myself — we're relationship focused. We're looking out for your interest and we're always thinking of the long term. Because we want to help you, we want to help your family, your colleagues what have you. So if you're looking at a particular home and it's not going to be a fit and we know that, we're not going to be pushing you into anything. Tom: Right. And you know it's… I've literally had this exact same conversation with all my clients, where I basically say, “I'm not trying to sell you this house. I'm trying to sell you the house ten years, twenty years, thirty years down the line.” That's what we're talking about here. It's not in my best interest, by the way, to just sell you this — like do everything I can to hard pressure you to buy a house “I don't know if I can do it” because all you're gonna do is be thinking all the time “That Tom, he just kept, you know, kept pushing and kept pushing and I would never go back to him again. I would never recommend…” No, no, no… I want, I want you to when you walk into that house, I want you to have a feeling of, “I'm home. I'm home. This feels great. That Tom…” That's really what I'm looking for. I want to hear “Tom” associated with that amazing feeling you have about walking into that house — and I think that works the best for anybody involved in that transaction. Ron: Absolutely. Tom: And and by the way while we're talking about like the high pressure thing and everything… I was thinking about this the other day… And I'm talking to Ron, because I don't know if you have you ever heard the utter exasperation of a homeowner after their listing expires? Ron: Oh, yes. Tom: If you don't know what that means when a home is put on the market and doesn't sell in ninety… one hundred twenty days, whatever days it says in the contract between you know the agent and the seller, it's then considered to be quote end quote “Expired” and it's up for grabs. Any agent can come in and try to, you know, get the listing again. And oh, boy… oh boy do they come. Holy moly. These these poor homeowners… Look, They've already experienced the humiliation of the market rejecting their home for whatever reason, whether, you know, there wasn't enough marketing — or they just didn't want to put in, you know, the resources to change the crazy pink walls in the living room to you know some color the didn't make people throw up when they looked at it. Or, you know, more than likely you just didn't listen to the agent and priced it way too high. Right? But for whatever reason your dream of packing up and moving to Bermuda has been totally shattered — and then what happens? Ron? Ron: Yeah, so what happens is… It's in the new Realtor's handbook. You get barraged by expired listings… There is this term, “door knocking” you are essentially you assault everybody in your neighborhood. Tom: I mean they literally get inundated with a barrage of phone calls from low-life WA's and SA's and they get easily, easily fifty to sixty phone calls, all in one day. Like they come out of the woodwork — it's like a zombie movie. I've been in places, brokerages, right? Where they call the receptionist they finally call the receptionist at the front desk and they plead for the calls to stop. I mean it's disgraceful and we wonder why we have such a horrible reputation as human scum. It's ridiculous. And it's like the crowd never stops. But I mean look I take a look at that stuff. It really makes me totally understand why people want to even nix real estate agent out of the mix completely, right? “I mean I've got Zillow and Redfin — they give valuations… They tell me what's for sale. I mean, why do I need an agent anymore? How are real estate agents not just a middleman You know that does X, Y, or Z, when I can do X, Y, or Z on this here smart phone of mine? When is someone going to come along and disrupt or Uber-fy the real estate business?” Well OK. OK, right? Point taken, but listen. Two things. Two things… First, speaking for real estate agents, we really need to listen to that. That means that people either think of us as unnecessary at beset or complete a-holes at worst. We are doing such a horrible job with how we deal with our clients or potential clients that they just don't want to deal with us at all. They want to cut us out of the process completely! And the second thing really… The other side of that coin is that not only are we horrible, but we're not doing a good enough job letting them know what value we do bring to them — and by the way we do bring value, an enormous amount of value but it just may not be in the way that they necessarily expect. There was a there was an incredible article I read the other day on Inman.com. It's a… That's a… If you don't know what that is, it's a website mostly for folks in the real estate business like me and Ron — and actually this article is more like a transcript from a presentation by a guy named Jed Carlson from a company called Adworx… And he was talking about this this exact stuff and he was comparing real estate to other businesses that had, you know, gone through the quote/unquote disruption. His biggest example was the music industry where you know basically Napster came along and changed the way that we think about music. Before, when you wanted to hear your, you know, favorite song that you had, you know, you wanted — you had to go out and buy this big black disc called an album or a CD — and you couldn't just have the one song you wanted, right? You needed ten other not so great songs that came along with it. But, like, with Napster you could choose the one single you wanted and listen to it as many times as you wanted. So he started thinking if technology like this could disrupt an industry like the music business could things like Zillow or Redfin, you know, etcetera do the same with real estate? So, he was reading an article — he was reading an article. So I'm reading an article of a guy who was reading an article — from an industry expert who was asked if you could boil down what a service provider really does for the client — what would it be? And this is what he said the guy said. I'm going to read it here. “I think it's three things. The first one is they help reduce the risk. They reduce the risk of the transaction. The second one is they help carry the load, grunt work, leg work, all that stuff. And the third one is they comfort the client along the way.” Now, it sounds exactly what a real estate agent should be doing. Funny thing, he wasn't talking about real estate agents. The guy was an expert in mountain climbing and was talking about Sherpas, Sherpa mountain guides. I'm going to read from the transcript here because what he says I think is very important. So listen up. He says, “Now for those of you who don't know what a Sherpa is, what they are… They are a culture of about fifty thousand people that live in eastern Nepal and they're famous for their hard work ethic and being acclimated to high altitude and a lot of them make their living taking climbers up Mount Everest and K2, the most dangerous mountains in the world. So the Sherpa, I think, make a great analogy to the real estate agent in a lot of ways because they share an eerily similar set of core value propositions, right? Reduce risk. Carry the load. Comfort the client.” End quote. So, that's what — that's what real estate agents really sell — confidence. You're going through one of the biggest purchases or sales if you're a seller in your life — you want someone who has been up the mountain enough times so they know when there's an outcropping that is extra slippery… Or “Oh, those clouds on the horizon are looking pretty scary over there. We should probably camp out here for the night.” And then this guy Jed goes on to say — and he's talking about the role of the real estate agent here — talking to the client, quote, “I'm going to take you through the most difficult and treacherous and biggest transaction of your life. I cannot guarantee it will be painless or easy, but it is my job to protect you…” There's that word “protect” you, “…during the process and make you as comfortable as I can. My experience will prevent errors and when something unexpected comes up we're going to benefit from my experience. Listen, I've got your back all the way through the process, even beyond the close until you are satisfied. I am your Sherpa.” So when you tell us that you can find the house on Zillow? You know, awesome! You know, that means we can save time finding you a place. I mean, but if all you think a real estate agent is is a dog running around to find you a bone — you're mistaken. That's not where my value is. An agent's value is being your Sherpa, guiding you up the mountain, doing some of the grunt work — and if the weather turns bad, as it does sometimes in a real estate transaction — you want them to have enough experience and knowledge to guide you to a safe place. And that's that's also what I, what I'm hoping to do here. I want to help guide all of you up that rocky slope of buying or selling a home. Remember… It doesn't have to be scary. I mean, not if you know where the handholds are, or the footholds are, and I'm I'm going to help you find where they are… Guiding you… Being your Sherpa. And whomever you choose to be your agent will take you the rest of the way, you know… Ron: You know, Tom you bring up a really good point and I really, really like this and you know professionals like us being Sherpas. You know, I think a very important piece to that is also transparency. You know, we want our clients to share everything and what's going on. They don't have to necessarily share everything with everybody in the transaction, right? But, at least with with us… Because what it helps is— it actually helps us create a path. So when we find, you know, just like you're hiring a Sherpa to take you up a mountain… If you have a heart condition, that's probably something a Sherpa would want to know. Tom: I was literally about to say if you, like, if you have asthma or something like that… You know, you're probably going to want to tell the Sherpa that. “I don't know if I can make it up this mountain.” Ron: Exactly exactly. Tom: Or, if you're afraid of heights, right? You know, you might want to reconsider. Ron: But you know those are things that, you know, once we know this information — knowledge is power. So, being transparent. If you're going to go on vacation a week before we close escrow, well these are things we need to know because we need to make sure that we lay out the path and that just helps us navigate and help. Tom: Well and to go into really and hopefully not to belabor the whole sharper analogy. We're basically if you have these issues. Well then we have to pack differently. I mean we literally have to if you. You know have a heart condition we're going to we're going to make sure that we're going to have you know adrenaline or some sort of being a deferred later inside of our back just in case that somehow you start clutching your chest you know at eight thousand feet and it's much easier to plan for this you know we set foot on the mountain. Right exactly. So when you're in the middle of escrow OK yes it's good to know if these these things pop up but it's a lot easier to know all of this in advance before we're helping you with your offer and helping you get into escrow and everything else because it helps us plan and strategize when advance because we don't have we don't have the clock or I don't have a gun pointed at our heads right. Great so here I'm going to be closing up here and basically what I'm closing up with is and what I'm calling my ten commandments for this podcast The first one commandment number one I will tell you the truth once a week. Even if it hurts me what does that mean. Well that means total honesty if you need to know something as a buyer or seller My duty is to let you know even if it's counter to my best interest. It's the podcast version of fiduciary. Duty basically But here's the other side of that coin. I'm going to and like you know we were just talking about on I'm going to ask you to be honest about things too if you're you know going to take a bigger role in finding your home or selling your home than you need to hear when you're screwing up to I'm not going to coddle you here. This is about you learning the most you can and then turning around and taking action effectively losing your fear and taking action effectively if I hurt your feelings in any way please try not to take it personally but there's a chance. It's going to happen next. Commandment number two I'm going to throw more value at you then you could ever need in this podcast in this pocket as you will hear everything the kitchen and the sink. There are times where it will be very kind of inside pool and nerdy and maybe too technical but I think it's important for you to hear it in order to get the whole picture and in between you will find you'll find things that resonate with you and then you can use personally. Number three. Every episode will have a riginal information and perspective that you can't find anywhere else. So basically if you say I X I could've gone on the internet look that up. I and Ron have failed and I definitely want to hear about it. Number four. I'm going to answer your questions. If you have anything specific you want to hear about do not hesitate. Email me at Tom at clarified Realty dot com and I'll be happy to answer it for you but don't be surprised if you hear it on the next episode of the pod cast. If you're asking a question then somebody else is probably asking that question to command number five shenanigans. I am going to be on the lookout for all the latest shenanigans and cons that you need to be on the lookout for in the market your protector agent should be looking out for these two but I'm going to try to do all I can to let you know before you get burned. Harmed in any way commandment or six you will learn ways to hold your agent and other real estate professionals accountable. What should you expect for the commission you pay what behavior and ethics of the protector agent personify each episode will include specific things you should be looking for when you're working with that command and over seven. I will introduce you to incredible experts in the field when I have a guest they will be bedded to make sure that they truly know what they're talking about and are professionals I consider to be the best in the business and you will hear amazing advice you won't hear anywhere else. Straight from their own mouths commander number eight. And this is an important one. I'm going to be learning right along with you. And that's going to be one of my big criteria when planning these pod casts have I heard that stuff before is it new to me and you know and I've been doing this a while. There's probably a good chance you guys haven't heard it either. If I haven't heard it command number nine is that I'm always listening. If you have something to say whether it's some way this podcast can improve or become better I want to hear about it. I want to read your comments. We're going to be building this plane mid-flight and I always want to hear ways to make it better as a matter of fact that's why I'm leaving command number ten open. It's going to stay empty in the off chance that one that you know once you hear this. You know if there's some way that the listener has a way to make this show better and more useful to each other then maybe might have a commanding number ten. Because in the end it's. It's my show. But ultimately it's for all of you and I can't wait to see everyone get involved and do what you can to make it even better. So that's just a small glimpse at what I really hope to achieve with this pocket as I think that if you listen to these pop cast episodes I'm going to you know consider it a success if you go into your first home purchase or your first home sale and say hey this that wasn't so scary. I can do this. I got this so wrong. You got anything else you want to. Here I think only covered and I'm really excited to hear everyone's responses and feedback and I mean the ultimate joy is listening to someone who. They didn't qualify or thought I can't buy a home. They've been turned down in the past and then ultimately through the right resources they come out at the other end and we get to celebrate that. That's what I'm most looking forward to. It's an incredible feeling. And it's literally like I can only compare it to you know I'm not a drug addict but if I can only compare it to a drug. I mean I love the feeling of helping people to get into homes and and if I can help any of you in that way in terms of giving you information and making the process smoother. This is going to be a success. So thank you again for listening. I'm begging you to not let this be it. I appreciate that you've taken your precious time to listen to this podcast but I hope you come along for the ride. Well we'll have new episodes each week all packed to the rafters with a great information. Listen to the podcast interact with other listeners and let's make this a truly amazing and useful experience for everyone. I want to thank Ron and his company guaranteed rate for Linux record i Pod cast in the offices here in Pasadena. If you want to get more information or ask me questions please email me at Tom clarified Realty dot com for more exclusive bonus content between episodes please check out our website www dot clarified Realty dot com and I am on Snap Chat Twitter and Instagram my call. Sign is act clarified reality. And please check out our clarified realty page on Facebook. I beg of you please please please leave feedback and reviews on i Tunes or in the comments section on our page as Gary Bain or Chuck likes to say the back is my oxygen so I want to hear what you all are saying my amazing theme song Hey now is from the band Wolf. So that's what two apps and please go check them out and like them on South Sound Cloud will also leave a link to the song in the credits if we can they rock show frickin hard makes my teeth hurt. Go check them out for amazing tunes and just a little disclaimer Ron and I are licensed by the California Bureau of real estate my Emma last number a license number is zero one seven one five three five three Ron's is integrate and two six one five eight seven The advice we give is only for properties located in the state of California for all the other states. Please contact your local real estate agent or real estate professional and that's about it. Ron you good. All right thanks for coming by everybody and remember the greatest feeling is making someone feel at home. Take care and we'll see you next week. [/spp-transcript]  

Fisher opens the show following up on last week's appearance by Susan Snyder who "planted her family flag" with a personal website devoted to her family that has attracted numerous other descendants, including Fisher himself. Both Fisher and Susan were delighted to receive an email from a Cincinnati listener who ties into three ancestral couples shared by both Fisher and Susan. David Allen Lambert, Chief Genealogist for the New England Historic Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org then talks about his experience at the Federation of Genealogical Societies Conference. He also shares news of the discovery of newly developed negatives of a World War I pilot killed in action in 1918. Where did the negatives come from and what do they show? David will tell you. David then jumps to the recent recognition of another aged World War II pilot who was known for more than just his military prowess. Wait until you hear what it is! Then there's word that BBC Scotland is looking for you if you had Scottish ancestors in Nova Scotia. David has all the particulars. David's Tip this week concerns a new app that allows you to snap a pic and have it go out as an old fashioned post card! He'll also have another great free guest user database from NEHGS. Next, Fisher talks to genealogical speaker, researcher, and writer Loretta Evans about "circumstantial evidence" in genealogy. How is it defined exactly and how can it help you "nail down" the line you're researching. Loretta has some great insight and advice. Fisher then visits with Bill Habermann of Tacoma, Washington. Bill has "adopted" over 1,600 people... all dead... in an overgrown local cemetery, and he's doing all he can to let you know who they are. What got Bill started on this and what has the response been? You'll love the story. Then Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com returns to talk preservation. Tom answers a listener question from South Carolina about using a national digitizing firm because no one provides the service locally. As usual, Tom has some great thoughts on protecting your most important family history assets. That's all this week on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show!   Transcript of Episode 156 Segment 1 Episode 156 (00:30) Fisher: And welcome to Extreme Genes! This is America’s Family History Show. My name is Fisher. I am the Radio Roots Sleuth, on the program where we shake your family tree, and watch the nuts fall out. Nice to have you along today. We’ve got some great guests. First of all coming up in about eight or nine minutes we’re going to talk to Loretta Evans. And Loretta talks about the use of “circumstantial evidence” when you’re trying to put together your family tree. How do you know that it’s really good enough? What can you use it for? She’s going to have that for you coming up a little bit later on. After that, we’re going to talk to Bill Habermann he is up in the Seattle, Tacoma area, and he has adopted 1,600 people. All dead. In a cemetery! And you can do the same kind of thing. He’ll tell you what he’s doing and how he’s helping people all around the country, in fact around the world, find some of their missing relatives in the Washington State area. But right now, let me get on to Boston and my good friend David Allen Lambert. He is the Chief Genealogist for the New England Historic Genealogical Society and AmericanAncestors.org, fresh back from the Federation of Genealogical Societies conference in Springfield, Illinois. How are you David? David: I’m doing good. It’s nice to be back on the ground in Beantown. Fisher: I’ll bet. And you had a good time there? David: We had a great time. And I want to let people know who go to conferences, no matter where it is, don’t be ashamed of wearing a lot of ribbons on your badge. Fisher: Really? Yours is practically like a loin cloth when you’re out there. [Laughs] David: Well I like to say maybe a shawl. [Laughs] Fisher: [Laughs] David: I had thirty-two ribbons on it and when I went to the Federation of Genealogical Societies gala’s 40th anniversary dinner, they had trivia and they also had a scavenger hunt. Fisher: Um hmm. David: 150 points for the longest badge put us over the top! Fisher: [Laughs] David: Myself and Mary Tedesco from Genealogical Roadshow, one of our friends and guests, all won over a thousand dollars in memberships and conference registrations and meals, we’re very, very happy. Fisher: Wow! David: So, laughing my way to the bank for the longest name badge at the Federation of Genealogical Societies and I’d do it again. Fisher: [Laughs] Unbelievable. I’ve got to tell you a story. Last week we had Susan Snyder on the show and she is the lady that set up a website and we talked about it, we did the whole segment about planting your family flag basically out there for people to find you and provide you with materials, and she’s had Bible pages sent to her and things relating to her direct ancestors. Things folks sold her or gave to her. She found me because we’re related. Well we had her on the show, and then the next day she gets a nice email from a guy, a listener in Cincinnati, Ohio, who said, “Hey, we’re related to!” and so now she’s exchanging information with him and I just love the way the show brings people together. David: It’s amazing. Just last week I got a person who has an oil painting of my third great grandfather’s sister born in 1772, and he was not really sure if his family will want it. So I told him I would give her a good home. Fisher: Yeah [Laughs] great! Wow. Hopefully you get that and when you do, send us the picture. We’d all love to see it. David: Hopefully it will be in my home some day. But I don’t want to wish him to meet his maker any time soon of course. [Laughs] Fisher: Of course. Hey what do you have for us today in our Family Histoire news, David? David: Well, the exciting story that I want to start off with is actually about photographs taken a hundred years ago by Captain William Chambers of the 49th Squadron in Kent, England. He was a recognisance photographer in World War I and was shot down in 1918 at the ripe old age of twenty-one. His camera and negatives eventually were passed on to his nephew who recent had them developed. It’s amazing! There are pictures of airplanes and pilots and people that have long since passed. But it gives us another fresh view on history from World War I a century later. Fisher: That’s incredible. What a great story. David: It really is. And I want to propose a toast to the subject of this next story. Second Lieutenant Donald Stinson now aged 93, received four Bronze Stars for his service in World War II, involving bringing guns and men and flying them to the front lines in Japan during the war. But one of the things he did, which is a light hearted note, he is responsible for bringing beer. Fisher: What? [Laughs] David: Twenty thousand cases of beer to thirsty soldiers in multiple “packiruns” if you will, to Australia and New Guinea. And I think that anyone who is a veteran could probably drink to that. Fisher: Wow, that’s great! Congratulations to him. That’s like the second week in a row we’ve had a story of a World War II vet in their 90s just getting their medals now. What is going on? David: It’s about time. It really is. Well I’ll tell you, going back a little ways to the days of immigration and to the east coast, Nova Scotia, which means New Scotland was settled by many people from the Highlands. In 1773 a vessel called “The Hector” brought 189 highlanders that disembarked and were changed in Nova Scotia forever. Now, BBC in Scotland is looking for the descendants. So if your ancestor came to Nova Scotia from Scotland perhaps on the Hector in 1773, there are passenger lists that exist, contact BBC in Scotland. Just check Extreme Genes.com. Our Facebook page will have more details for you. Fisher: That’s very cool. So the people from old Scotland are looking for the descendants of the people in New Scotland, Nova Scotia, to call back home. David: To old Scotland. Fisher: Yeah. David: New Scotland, old Scotland, it gets confusing. But BBC Scotland is obviously doing a little piece on it, so put your kilt on and go and contact them. Fisher: [Laughs] David: One of the things that I really enjoy is a good tip from a listener, and one of our listeners and someone who’s been on the show is the Photo Detective Maureen Taylor. Fisher: Yes. David: While I was in Springfield, she told me about a new type of app that she uses from the app store. There’s a variety of choices to choose from but it basically allows you to send a postcard. Take a picture with your smart phone, this company, for very cheap money, will print and mail mailable postcards for you for your relatives. So the old photo postcards you might have in your family archives, you can create new ones. Fisher: How cool is that! David: It really is. So that brings me to the NEHGS guest user database of the week which harkens back to Scotland again. We now have Scotland marriages 1561 to 1910 and Scotland births and baptisms from 1564 to 1950, in conjunction with our partnership with FamilySearch.org. Well that’s all I have for this week back here in Beantown. Talk to you soon my friend! Fisher: All right, great to talk to you again as always David. We’ll talk to you again next week. This segment of our show has been brought to you from MyHeritage.com. And coming up next, we’re going to talk to a woman named Loretta Evans. And Loretta is an instructor, she’s a researcher, and she’s got some thoughts on “circumstantial evidence.” Now, we hear people talk about it in the courtroom... does circumstantial evidence really prove a case? Well, in genealogy it actually can. And she’ll give you some examples of that and give you some other thoughts coming up in three minutes on Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show. Segment 2 Episode 156 (11:10) Host: Scott Fisher with guest Loretta Evans Fisher: One of my favorite shows growing up was Perry Mason. And, Perry would get into heated battle in the courtroom with the prosecutor, Hamilton Burger. “Ham Burger” was what he was called. And they’d say, “Well, Mr Mason, that’s just circumstantial evidence!” And that’s what we’re going to talk about today. When it comes to developing your family history and your family tree, how does circumstantial evidence work in there and does it really matter? Is circumstantial evidence really evidence? It is Fisher. This is Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. And my guest today is Loretta Evans, and Loretta specializes in researching the midwestern United States, and she speaks all over the place, and she’s written articles for all the big family history magazines. And Loretta’s in Idaho Falls, Idaho. Nice to have you on the show, Loretta! Loretta: Thank you. I’m glad to be here. Fisher: You know, I’m excited about this idea of helping people understand that circumstantial evidence really is evidence, and in some cases is very, very strong evidence. So let’s just start with some simple examples of what circumstantial evidence is that we may typically use all the time, right? Loretta: Right. For example, if you have a census record, and you have someone’s age, it isn’t proof of the year they were born. It gives you an approximate year they were born. Fisher: That’s right. Loretta: But it’s sort of depends on who gave the information out. If it was the mother, and this is the child, they’re pretty sure about the age of their children. But if it was a neighbor or a grandparent, they may be a few years off. Or if somebody had a reason to lie, a lot of women lied about their age in censuses, so you can’t. Fisher: I am so glad you said that! Because it’s not something that I can easily say, Loretta! [Laughs] But it is true. For some reason, more with women than anybody else, I’m just sorry, it’s just the way it is. They get younger as they get older! Have you picked up on that? Loretta: I have. In fact, somebody told me, but it may or may not be true, that someone had done a study of British censuses and they found that the average British woman aged about seven years between the ten year census records! Fisher: [Laughs] Loretta: And you know, in a sense if you want someone’s more accurate age, find them when they’re very young or very old. Fisher: Yeah, that’s right. Loretta: And they’re more likely to be honest about it. Fisher: Yeah. [Laughs] Absolutely! Well that’s a great example of circumstantial evidence. Give us some examples though, of course, of direct evidence. Just for the sake of comparison. Loretta: Okay. For direct evidence, on a death certificate, usually the person’s name, their gender, the date they died, the place they died, those are all directly given by the doctor in charge or the person who is giving the information. You can be very comfortable about those pieces of information. Fisher: Right, as long as the people really knew what they were talking about. Loretta: Correct. But for example, the birth date on a death certificate is a little bit suspect. Fisher: Right. Loretta: If it’s a baby that dies and the mother gives the information, yeah, I’d be very comfortable with that. But I had a great grandfather who died in Cleveland, Ohio in about 1900, and I’m thinking he was living in a boarding house because they got his name wrong, they got his birth place wrong, they got his age wrong. It took us a long time to convince the city of Cleveland that he really was the same person. Fisher: [Laughs] Loretta: And that we could put a headstone on his grave. Fisher: And so what you’re saying is, for a death, a death certificate is direct evidence. But a death certificate is circumstantial as far as their birth is concerned? Loretta: That’s true. Or their parents names or their parents’ birth places, they’re wonderful clues. Fisher: Yes. Loretta: And so, if you are a researcher, you take those clues and then you try to find other documents that can prove or disprove that piece of information. And then you can be more comfortable whether it’s accurate or not. I think any evidence in genealogy is accurate until the next piece of information comes along that might prove or disprove it. Fisher: Right. Loretta: Somebody said it was like washing dishes. You’re all done, and then somebody walks in with another dirty glass. Fisher: [Laughs] Wow. That’s not very attractive at all. Loretta: [Laughs] I’m sorry. That image is, you know, you think you’re done, and then somebody gives you additional information that might even call into question what you think is accurate. Fisher: Sure. Loretta: I had two brothers. One born in 1944 and one born in 1950, and they both died at birth. And they were both born on July 12th. And in our family that was this kind of a “tender mercy.” “Oh, they had the same birth date.” And when the cemetery records came online, my older brother Ralph was listed as having been born on July 11th. Fisher: Oh boy. Loretta: And it was in the family Bible. There were no birth or death certificates because they were stillborn. They’re on the headstone. They carved it on the stone. Fisher: [Laughs] Right. Loretta: They forgot it being July 12th. And my mother didn’t really care, and my brother didn’t care, but it drove me crazy. And, I finally got my mother’s hospital records because some mortuary records didn’t exist anymore, and she was in her 90s and she just sighed and signed the permission slip. “Yes, you can release my hospital records from 1944.” Fisher: [Laughs] Loretta: Anyway, I got it from a place in California that had taken all of the records and they were sold there. Anyway, the hospital actually was in Utah. But he was born on July 11th. The headstone is wrong, our family Bible is wrong. Although they were born close to the same day it wasn’t exactly the same day. Fisher: Yeah. I’ve seen this before. We have a family Bible that gives the death date of my great, great grandfather, and even the obituary said December 26th 1875. But the death record said December 27th. And it appears that what happened was that he died at home, late in the evening on the 26th, but the doctor probably didn’t show up till after midnight, because the death time was put down as 12:30 in the morning. Or, they just didn’t recognize that it was a new day, at the point that he’d passed. Loretta: You know, that kind of thing happens. My uncle was born near midnight at home, and nobody looked at the clock until after he was born, but he could have been born before midnight. Nobody ever really knows. They chose one of the days and put it on the birth certificate. Fisher: Here’s another sample of a circumstantial situation that came up. I tracked down a third great grandmother, and I was very fortunate that somebody had actually been able to come up with a family Bible that put her in the family. And, it was from this very same area, so I was pretty confident. But still, how could I know for sure that she was the only person of that name from that area? And so, circumstantial evidence often involves eliminating other possibilities. I think you’d agree. Loretta: Oh, very definitely. You not only have to try to find evidence proving what you have, but you’ve got to look for are there any other possibilities that this could be, and can you prove or disprove those other possibilities. Fisher: And one of the things that’s really helpful now with circumstantial evidence, and when you have a case like this... DNA. And I was very fortunate that suddenly I found a person matching me in DNA who descended from the brother of the person I thought it to be, from a grandfather of the person I thought it to be, and a great grandfather of the person I thought it to be. Which I felt was very good confirming evidence of this otherwise circumstantial case. Loretta: That is excellent. Yeah. Fisher: So you put these things all together and then you get the confirmation, several times hopefully, from DNA. And then you can put together your case and you know, “Hey, wait a minute, I’ve got something here I can be confident in.” And that’s maybe at the point where you can publish it or put it online and share it with other people. I don’t know how you feel about it, Loretta. I like to put things together first of all on my own, keep it to myself, until I’m really, really confident in what I’ve got before I really share it. Because, as we know, once something goes public, if you’re wrong, it will take on a life of its own and live for years and years and years. And it’s really difficult ever to get rid of it. Loretta: Oh, that is definitely true. There are two major places where people put pedigrees. FamilySearch.org, another is Ancestry. The difference is that Ancestry keeps each person’s pedigree separate. Fisher: Yep. Loretta: Where FamilySearch combines everything. And your cousin could come along and change things in a while. So yes, you do want to be pretty comfortable with what you’re putting out there before you submit it. Because you could take two people who live in the same area, who have similar names and make them into one person, and make it very, very difficult in years to come for somebody to separate those two individuals. Fisher: Yeah, that’s the problem. So, that’s why it’s really important to work the negative side. Try to disprove that it’s the person as well as trying to prove it. And maybe get a little DNA help as well. And at the end, your circumstantial evidence can really prove your case. Loretta: One example we had about somebody walking in with another dirty glass... Fisher: [Laughs] Loretta: ...where we had a photograph that was of this woman who had died in Winter Quarters, Iowa. And, my husband and I visited a distant cousin one evening and she had another copy of the photograph. But it was a larger copy and somebody had copied the name of the photography studio as well as the image, and this picture was taken by Ottinger’s in Salt Lake City, Utah. Well, the woman couldn’t have died in Winter Quarters and had her picture taken in Ottinger’s in Salt Lake City because he wasn’t in business at that time. Fisher: Right. Loretta: And he was half a continent away. Fisher: Yeah! Loretta: And so, we concluded that it was the step grandmother rather than the grandmother that was in the picture. Fisher: Interesting. Well, there you go. Always making a few adjustments along the way, right? Loretta: Oh, absolutely. And, any genealogist who is afraid that somebody is going to disprove all the things they’ve worked so hard for isn’t really open enough to be a really good genealogist. Fisher: The experts are often wrong. And the best ones will go back and correct their own errors. Clean up their own mess and wash their own glasses, right? [Laughs] Loretta: [Laughs] There you go. Fisher: Hey, Loretta, delight to talk to you today. Loretta Evans, she’s in Idaho Falls, Idaho, talking about circumstantial evidence. Is it real? Is it good? Can you use it? The answer is yes! Thanks so much for coming on. Loretta: I’ve enjoyed it very much. Thank you. Fisher: And this segment has been brought to you by 23andMe.com DNA. And coming up next, we’ll talk to a Washington State man who has adopted 1,600 people. They’re all dead! They’re in a cemetery! He’s getting the word out about who they are, and you’re going to want to hear his story in five minutes. Segment 3 Episode 156 (24:50) Host: Scott Fisher with guest Bill Habermann Fisher: Welcome back to Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. It is Fisher here, the Radio Roots Sleuth, and part of my sleuthing has to do with tracking down people with interesting stories that I know might interest you. And this is a guy who I think is inspiring a lot of people around the country since his story broke recently in the Tacoma News Tribune. His name is Bill Habermann. And Bill, you work for a funeral company, yes? Bill: I do. Piper, Marley, Malinger and Oakwood are all tied together as one funeral home. Fisher: And yet, this all spills over into your hobby, as it turns out. You found a cemetery out in the middle of nowhere. I guess it's been grown over, and you've kind of adopted it. Tell us about this. Bill: Well, back in the 1880s when the Northern Pacific Railroad came out west and put a terminus here in Tacoma, they gave about 56 acres to the city for a cemetery. And back in those days, folks didn't want the cemeteries near the town, and so it ended up being out in the sticks, kind of. Well, then that cemetery became Old Tacoma Cemetery and was divided up into three parcels. One stayed as Old Tacoma Cemetery, or Tacoma Cemetery, somehow, and I haven't been able to find out how a portion of about eight acres became Oakwood Cemetery, and then off to the side of the two cemeteries. There are two acres that became the county's pauper cemetery. Fisher: And that kind of got overgrown and forgotten, apparently. Bill: Well, yes. And I gave tours of Oakwood several times, and people would ask me during the tour, "Well, what is that on the other side of the fence? I see a few headstones there, but it's pretty much just grass." And then I said, "Well, that's the county's cemetery which was closed in 1927, and there really aren't a lot of records around for it." Fisher: Now why is that? Bill: Well, I think back in the early days people just were not so record conscious as they are now. And either that or they wrote on a slip of paper and thought, "Well, I'll put it in the book sometime." And it didn't happen. Or the county said, "Well, it's up to the funeral homes to take care of the records because they're putting the bodies into the cemetery." They were each paid $4.50 per burial. So some of the cemetery records probably are just lost totally with the county, but I was fortunate enough to have the records for Piper Funeral Home which started here in 1908, and Malinger which started here in 1883. Fisher: They merged at one point. Bill: Well, they merged at one point, yeah. And then what I did, I just got curious and I looked up the folks who had some headstones and found some of them in our records and started putting that down. Somebody said, "Why don't you put this on FindAGrave because people might want to look up somebody." And I thought, "Oh, okay." And I started doing that and then going through all the ledgers here, I just came up with 1,600 folks that are... Fisher: Wow! 1600? Bill: Yeah. And that was at the time Karen did the article. Now I'm up to 1,626. Fisher: [Laughs] Of course. There's always progress. Now, would you find the names in the ledgers first? Or would you find the tombstones first and then try to track them down in the ledgers? Bill: Well, the initial 15 headstones or so, I looked for them in the ledgers, but then I just started with page one of the Piper book and looked through every page, a page at a time, and if I saw $4.50, that was a first give away that it was somebody that went into the pauper's cemetery. Fisher: Interesting. So it didn't mention the cemetery, it was the price that gave it away? Bill: Yeah, it's the price that always gets me to the page, right. Fisher: Oh, that's fascinating. So when did you start this project, and what has kept you going, and how often do you go there? Bill: Well, I started doing in on FindAGrave about six years ago. The people who own or are in control of the cemetery really don't want folks walking around in there, because several of the graves are sunk in pretty badly, because folks were put into wooden boxes and into concrete grave liners. So they tend to like to leave it looking a little rough, as it said in the newspaper article, so that everybody isn't cramming around in there looking for things. The headstones even are in such disarray sort of that I have not been able to figure out even the rows or the blocks or the plot numbers, like we have in our cemetery, to locate a specific person. And some of those folks might not even be anywhere near the headstone that's standing there. Fisher: Right. So the tombstone itself is the giveaway of who's in there, but you just don't know where the grave itself might be? Bill: Yes, right. Fisher: Wow. Bill: And some of them face east and west, and some of them face north and south, and some of them look like they could be in a row, but others have been marked just set kind of whacky. There are two Japanese headstones there that face no particular direction, you know, they're kind of out in the middle of nowhere. Those two fascinated me because periodically when I'd look over the fence I would see fresh flowers put on those two graves, and they're back from the early 1900s, and sometimes there would be small food offerings there also at those two graves. I haven't seen anything there for the last two years, but somebody was coming in there and still honoring their deceased family members. Fisher: That's amazing. Now, what have you learned about the people that are buried in there? Have you found some unusual or interesting stories about them? Bill: Yeah. There is one fellow that still kind of plagues me. His name is Taggart, and his story is sort of interesting in that he was a well known supposedly wealthy person here to Tacoma back in the early 1900s. And sad to say, his wife became insane and went to the hospital for the insane. While he, in the mean time, lost all his money, regained some money, lost it again, ended up living at the poor farm, and apparently he decided to try to commit suicide by cutting his throat with a straight razor. Well, the hospital saved him, but then ultimately shortly after, he died of pneumonia, which got a lot of people back in those days. Fisher: Sure. Bill: His headstone looks like a military headstone. I checked in the Civil War records and there are so many Patrick Taggards that I kind of lost track of did he really deserve a military headstone. But it's not carved in the way of any military headstones that I've ever found online. So he's kind of a curiosity for me. I really would like to get him a new headstone if he is military, but again, I almost run into a brick wall. Fisher: Sure. And that's the problem with common names, of course. So what about families? Have other families reached out to you from near and far to say, "Hey, you found my person I've been looking for!" Bill: Yes. I've gotten some thank you letters from folks, and on FindAGrave, they can correspond back and forth with me, and so they have thanked me and some folks have sent me information to add into my book. There's an infant that died I think age about three weeks, and the family didn't know whether the child was buried. They were so happy to find where the child was, and they sent me a copy of the baptism certificate for this infant. Although that's the only existing document there is, other than the fact that the child is somewhere in those two acres. Fisher: So, what about restoration of the cemetery? You're allowed in there and you're saying others are not, is there any interest in that on behalf of the owners or on the part of the owners to do this? Bill: I don't think so because it probably would be very costly, first of all, to mould the place and keep the grass looking nice, because here in summer everything turns yellow and dries up. The cemetery that they do own, Old Tacoma, is watered all the time with underground sprinklers, and they have their own wells, but I'm sure that they are not interested in spending probably thousands and thousands of dollars to make the cemetery look presentable. Fisher: You would think that people would have to adopt it, I guess, the descendants of those who are in there, if that was ever going to happen, right? Bill: Yeah. And because it's privately owned by Tacoma Cemetery, I don't think that they could even work that. It kind of would be a real conundrum. Fisher: Sure. He's Bill Habermann. He's a funeral director in Tacoma, Washington, and he has adopted his own cemetery up there and is getting the information he's finding up on FindAGrave. Bill, thank you so much for doing this! And I'm sure you're inspiring others who might want to take on the same kind of project wherever they are. Bill: I hope so. And thanks for the call! Fisher: Hey, this segment of our show has been brought to you by LegacyTree.com. And coming up next, we'll talk preservation with Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com. It's time to be getting ready for the holidays. He's got more great advice, coming up for you in three minutes on Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show. Segment 4 Episode 156 (37:10) Host: Scott Fisher with guest Tom Perry Fisher: And welcome back to Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com. It Is Fisher here, your Radio Roots Sleuth with my good friend Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com. He is our Preservation Authority. And Tom, good to have you back. Tom: Good to be here. Fisher: And we do have an email here from Richard Halter, and I believe it’s pronounced Sharon, South Carolina. And he said, “Fisher and Tom, I saw this ad on Facebook and my mind immediately jumped to all I’ve learned from your shows.” Now, he sent us a link to another digitizing firm that’s national. And he said, “My first thought was that they’re not going to do everything that Tom says to look for when getting your products digitized. And the same time though, I live in an area where there isn’t anything available other than big box stores which I don’t even like. Would you recommend something like this store as an option for someone who just wants to get the media digitized? I can do pictures and I’ve played with audio as well as slides and negatives and I’m getting better. I can also take video and convert it from DVD, CD and all this, as long as I can get it to the PC to work on. I’m not a professional to say the least, but I do the best I can and I’m getting better as I go. I’m a very big proponent of getting all of these memories digitized and I’d like to give people some options for things I cannot complete yet. Your loyal listener, Richard.” Tom: That’s a great email that you’ve sent us. You know, there’s a lot of things in here that are really great. I love how you want to get all your stuff digitized. You’re trying to do as much as you can which we really advocate, and then some of the things of course you can’t do. Now this place that you mentioned, I can’t really say whether they’re good or bad because I’ve asked listeners in the past, if you have good experiences with places whether they’re local or national let us know. If you have bad experiences locally or national, let us know also so that we can warn people or encourage people to go to these places. This is one that I’ve never received any information on. I’ve checked out the website, it seems legit and everything looks nice, beautiful website. They’re about the middle to high end which sometimes is good, sometimes it’s bad. Because most of the time when you see these real cheap things, you’re getting what you pay for, and it’s not very good. So they have a fair price, the price is a little higher than what we charge on our online store. But if it’s closer to you and you feel more comfortable doing it, what I would do is, always start with the smallest package kind of as a test drive and see if you’re happy with what they do. And then of course send in all your other stuff and if you’re happy let us know. Fisher: Sure. Right. And testing is a key thing. And I would imagine, aren’t there ratings involved with this somewhere online that he could check out? Tom: You know, there really should be, and I’ve thought about this before getting out there and doing some experiments with some of these different places and actually go in and give them multi-star ratings. So that’s something we’re looking at maybe in 2017, we might actually come out with a rating system. But we really need our listeners to let us know where they’ve had good experiences and bad experiences. And let us know places that they’ve used so that we can maybe start doing a rating system. I really encourage you use local places as much as you want. Use national places if you find out they’re good. You can go to shop.TMCPlace.com and get our prices. And usually if people are close to what our prices are they’re probably legit because they’re doing the right thing. If they’re way below, I say stay away. It’s not worth it. I’ve run into so much product places like that. Fisher: That’s the thing. This is not the kind of thing you really want to price shop on so much. I mean, if it’s too cheap to be true, it’s probably too cheap to be true, Tom. Tom: That is so true! [Laughs] Fisher: [Laughs] Tom: Yeah, you need to be careful. One thing that I really advocate that I think is really, really important which we have never gone into because I don’t like it. A lot of transfer places, they use high speed. So instead of like a VHS tape taking two hours to transfer, they can transfer it in 15 to 20 minutes because they’re doing it high speed which reduces your fidelity. Fisher: Of course. Tom: You know if it didn’t do that everybody would be doing it. We would do it. We could drop our prices way down. However, we wouldn’t be giving our clients the quality that they want. You know, if you’re in a situation where money is really, really tight and it’s that or nothing. It’s still scary, because I have people who come in to me and say, “Hey, we sent it to this place online that’s really cheap. We didn’t get our stuff back. Or it came back really bad. They told us our tape is bad.” And then we had to go and “undo” what the other people did. Fisher: All right. Well, what do we have coming up in the next segment here, Tom? Tom: We’re going to talk about some scanning parties we’re planning. Fisher: All right, we’ll get to that in about three minutes. This segment has been brought to you by Forever.com. And if you have a question for Tom Perry you can always write to him at AskTom@TMCPlace.com and you might get to hear your question answered on the air. From Extreme Genes, America’s Family History Show. Segment 5 Episode 156 (44:20) Host: Scott Fisher with guest Tom Perry Fisher: And we are back, final segment of Extreme Genes, America's Family History Show and ExtremeGenes.com, Preservation Time with Tom Perry from TMCPlace.com. Tom, you were just talking about a scanning party you've got coming up. And let's just explain to people first of all what a scanning party is. Tom: Okay. It’s a lot of fun. It’s not a MRI or CRT or anything like that. Fisher: [Laughs] Right. Tom: What we do is, we scan your photographs. So this is where anybody can bring in one of those sterilight 16 quart shoeboxes with the lid on. Fisher: Yeah. [Laughs] Tom: And you can pack it with your 3x3 up to 8x10 non-damaged, non-mounted, loose photos, and we can scan the whole box for you for twenty five bucks. Fisher: Wow! Tom: So it's an absolute killer deal. Fisher: And fast too, right? Tom: Oh yeah! Oh yeah! It's really fast! It’s amazing! But that's why they can't be mounted or anything like that. They need to be all organized. If you have multiple sizes, just organize your sizes together. And bring your own thumb drive. And there's no additional charge. If you want, we have 16GB flash drives for only ten bucks. Fisher: Now where are you going to be doing this? Tom: The first one we are doing is November 11th and 12th in Midway, Utah. That's kind of up in the mountains, a beautiful ski resort area. Fisher: Wow! That's going to be great. Okay, so you have a location there. Tom: Right. Fisher: So people who would be in the Utah area would go where in Midway? Tom: It’s going to be at the Homestead Resort. It’s all part of the FamilyHistoryExpos.com convention that they're having, those two days which we talked about, about a month ago. So if you want to sign up for the convention, you can come in and do that. You can come in for the scanning party. It’s going to be a lot of fun. Remember, it needs to be up to 8x10 and it’s got to be in sterilight box with the lid on. No great big posters. We won't be able to do anything like that at this time. Fisher: All right, but you can do stuff that's small, very small. Tom: Oh yeah! We can go all the way down to 3x3 as long as they're in good condition. And if you have some pictures that are starting to fade and things like that, don't think, "Oh, I can't do these." No, this is a good time to do your faded ones, because we're going to stop them from fading anymore. We'll give you a digitized copy of all of them. And then whether you want to do it next week or next year or ten years from now, you'll have the high definition file that you can go in and do color correction. Or if you say, "Hey, this is over my head. I don't want to be involved in it." You can email it back to us and then we can do the color correction as well. Fisher: Now what kind of dpi are we talking about? Tom: It’s usually about 1200 dpi. Fisher: Oh that's good! Tom: Oh yeah! It’s a really high dpi. Fisher: It’s solid, yeah. So I've done this recently, of course, I've gone ahead, all of my old home movies and videos digitized. So I've got like 110 of them on disk. I don't even know what's on them all, because I didn't even know what was on the videos when I gave them to you in the first place. The joy of it, though, is I can take them one at a time, maybe one a week, right, and transfer it in some way and edit it down to just each individual thing. We'll, here's a birthday on this video, that's separate from the time we got to meet Joe DiMaggio over here or something like that. I mean, you can separate them all out. And so, with photographs, it would be much the same. You can digitize them all. And then when you get around to it, you're there. And what a great opportunity this is… Midway, Utah, November 11th? Tom: 11th and 12th, correct. Just go to FamilyHistoryExpos.com and you can sign up for the convention if you want to go to that as well. And just remember, like you just mentioned, it’s good to get this stuff done. And I've even had people tell me that they're going to go on a long trip, so they get videos, photos, all these things scanned, and then they sit in the back with the kids and put the DVD in, and they're sitting there writing notes. So when they're driving down the highway they can sit there and watch the thing, instead of watching Aladdin or something with their kids. They can say, "Oh, yeah, this is grandma." and talk to their kids. And make sure you have your iPhone or a tape recorder running, so when you're explaining all this stuff to your kids, you've got it down. And then later on you can make a slideshow with your narration for your great, great grandkids who will never know you, but they'll be able to hear your voice describing who these people are in the photos, who they are in the videos. It just makes it so nice. Fisher: Boy! What a great idea! And you know, trapping the kids, I love that! [Laughs] Tom: [Laughs] It’s great! We're going to be doing a whole bunch this next year in 2017 working with our Going Postal stores. So we're going to have a lot of fun in 2017. Fisher: All right, Tom. Thanks for dropping by. See you next week. Tom: We'll be there. Fisher: And this segment of the show has been brought to you by FamilySearch.org and RootsMagic.com. Hey, thanks again to our guest, Loretta Evans, for coming on and talking about "circumstantial evidence." Does it really add up? And to Bill Habermann from Washington State, talking about the cemetery he adopted and how you might be able to do something of the same. Hey, and don't forget, if you're going to become your family's family history expert, you need to sign up for our free newsletter, The Weekly Genie. Do it at ExtremeGenes.com or our Facebook page. Talk to you next week. And remember, as far as everyone knows, we're a nice, normal family!

Welcome to the Real Fast Results podcast!  Today we have a very special treat.  Tom Corson-Knowles is an absolute expert in Amazon publishing, and he does very well when it comes to sending the books that he publishes to the top of the list on Amazon.  Welcome to the show Tom... Today's Promise I'm going to show you the five-step system to get any book to become a #1 bestseller on Amazon.  Whether it's a print book or an eBook, this will work for you. Benefits of Gaining a Bestseller Status There's a lot of benefits of gaining a bestseller status. Here are a few that come to mind: Obviously, if your book is #1 on Amazon, you'll be able to say that you're a #1 Amazon bestselling author.  So, you can add that to your bio. It can help you get more speaking gigs, if you're a speaker. It can help you to get booked for more podcast gigs like this, and on radio and TV. It can enhance your bio and the credibility you have in your field. There are many other benefits as well... Actually, just being a #1 Amazon bestseller can give you a little badge next to your book in search.  So, if someone searches for your book, or keywords related to your book, and sees your book in the Amazon search, it will actually have an Amazon bestseller tag which will say "Amazon Bestseller".  That can really, dramatically increase your conversions, and you can actually end up getting more sales just by virtue of having a book that's at #1 on Amazon. That designation only sticks while the book is #1 in any category, at least one category on Amazon. 5-Step system to Achieve an Amazon Bestseller The 5-Step system is really simple.  Number 1 is you want to find a relevant bestseller category on Amazon.  There are over 27,000 bestseller categories just in the US on any day.  That's between books and eBooks.  So, there is a ton.  There are many, many to choose from, and some of them aren't very competitive at all.  So, really what you want to do first is just find as many relevant ones as you can, to see what your options are for later. Obviously, if  you're writing a children's book or a romance novel, it's only going to fit into those categories.  You're not going to put your romance novel into a business and marketing category.  That just wouldn't make sense.  So, you're going to want to find the relevant bestseller categories first, and that just takes a bit of research. Number 2 is you have to analyze the competition.  So, once you've found the relevant categories, you just want to find out who the competition is, what they are like, and see what you can learn to make your book better, to make your cover better, and to make your book more marketable. Number 3, you'll need to calculate how many sales you need to make in order to hit #1 in each of the categories that you've researched.  That way, you're going to know, "Okay, in this category I need 100 sales in a day, and in this category I need five sales in a day."  Then you can know, based on your campaign, on your budget, and on your promotional abilities, how many copies you can sell and which categories you can reasonably expect to be #1 in.  The rest may be a little too competitive for you at this time. Then, number 4, you're going to choose two target categories because Amazon will actually allow you to choose two bestseller categories for your book. So, you're going to choose the right two categories for your book, based on that research that you've done. Number 5 is really easy.  Just get Amazon to put you into those categories.  That sounds super-easy, but it can actually be kind of difficult when all you're doing is publishing your book in your Kindle Direct Publishing account, or in CreateSpace, they don't actually give you the 27,000 categories to select from.  It's because Amazon's internal database doesn't sync with the external data that's actually used to list their books. Step 1 - Find a Relevant Bestseller Category The quickest and easiest way, for most people, is just to go to Amazon.com, and type in, or search for, some books that are bestsellers.  Actually, I'll have a link in the show notes that will take you directly to a page on Amazon that lists all of the categories of Kindle bestsellers and print book bestsellers.  If you don't have that, basically, you just need to find a book that's a bestseller on Amazon.  Then, you need to scroll down to "Product Details" on that book's page and click one of those bestseller rankings, and that will take you to that page as well. That's the first move; just finding those bestseller categories. Then you're going to browse through those lists and find the ones that are relevant to you.  If you have a business book, you're going to look into "Business & Investing" as a parent category.  Under that, there's going to be hundreds of child categories, or smaller categories that are nested underneath that one. You're going to browse through all of those different categories and see which ones are relevant for you, and just kind of write those down to keep track of them.  So, that's Step #1.  It's just researching all of the relevant bestseller categories. You can actually be listed in 20 or more categories on Amazon, but you can only select two.  The way that works is you try to select the two child categories, like the smallest, most niche categories, and them those can be listed in more parent categories.  For example, there's a "Direct Marketing" category, which is under the "Marketing" category, which is under the "Business & Investing" category.  So, that's just three categories right there, just from that one category that you've selected. Some people might be thinking, "Do you start by putting in a keyword related to your book?" No, so you actually have to go and find the either the direct category page on Amazon, which we'll share in the show notes, or find a book that's a bestseller already and then scroll down to "Product Details" and click the hyperlinks in those product details to those categories, and that will also take you to those categories.  When you just type in a keyword, those books may not be bestsellers and it might not take you to the direct list.  Just to be clear, you can use keywords, but what you're looking for are books on a bestseller list specifically related to your subject matter, and essentially, working backwards from there. Step 2 - Analyze the Competition Step #2 is to analyze the competition, and this is a step that I think a lot of authors just completely miss out on, and you can learn so much at this stage.  Really, I think this is something you should be doing constantly.  This is not just a one-time thing.  You should always be checking out the competition.  Primarily, what you want to do is, once you've found those relevant bestseller categories for your book, you want to browse those bestsellers on Amazon.  Look at the top 20 books in each of those categories. Really dive in deep.  What are their book titles?  What are their subtitles like?  What are their book covers like?  What are their book descriptions like?  What are their reviews like?  Read the positive reviews and the negative reviews, and see what customers like about those books, love about those books, and what they don't like about those books.  Just by doing this basic research... I mean, you can spend hours and hours on this and learn so much information that can help you not only to market your book better, but actually to create a better book. So, if you're researching a market on Amazon, and you see that all of the top books in this market. People really liked certain things about them, but there is one, or two, or three things that people really hate about these books. And they are leaving negative reviews about them, that really lets you know. If you really want to write a book in that market, and really want to stand out from the crowd, you'll obviously want to incorporate those things that the other books left out.  The readers or reviewers on Amazon will tell you all of that information.  It's all there and available.  The thing is that no one does this. Very few authors actually read the negative reviews of their competitor's to find out how they could actually be improved. It's sad because it leaves a ton of opportunity on the table for anyone who is willing to do that extra grunt work. It's the same thing... It's not just non-fiction.  This works incredibly well for fiction as well.  I know that some of my fiction students have used the same strategy and have just blown it out of the park with their books because they incorporated scenes or themes that the reviewers of their competitors have told them were really important to them. Step 3  - Calculate Exactly How Many Sales You Need to Hit #1 Step #3 is you need to calculate exactly how many sales you need to hit #1 in each of your categories.  The reason you want to do this is just to be very clear and have reasonable expectations.  It's unlikely that you are going to be #1 in all of the Kindle Store, right?  Because, in order to do that, you'll need tens of thousands of sales in a very short period of time. You can easily hit #1 in many different categories, but you need to know how many sales you actually need.  So, the way Amazon does this is there's actually something called the Amazon bestseller rankings, which we've talked about a little bit.  Basically, Amazon ranks every book in order of how competitive.  The #1 book is the most competitive, has the most sales, #2 the next, and so on and so forth. When you look at some of these books... Let's say the #1 book in "Direct Marketing" on Amazon, and you scroll down to the product details, you'll see the Amazon bestseller ranking in the Kindle store, or the print store for print books.  Let's say the book's ranking is 10,000, so you would need to beat that 10,000 bestseller ranking.  The problem is that you can't tell by looking at the number how many sales you need. So, what I've done with the help of this brilliant data guy is we've created this super-advanced calculator that tells you exactly how many sales you need in either a 24-hour period or over the duration of a month in order to hit any sales rank on Amazon. Check out the relevant bestseller categories in Step #1, find the bestseller ranking within the "Product Details" section of their books, and then just copy and paste those numbers into the sales calculator.  And, it's totally free, by the way, and the link will be in the show notes.  But, you can just type it into the sales calculator, and it will tell you exactly how many sales you need in one day, or in one month, to hit that bestseller ranking. The main ranking is the Amazon Bestseller Rank, and there's one for the Kindle Store, and there's one for books.  That's just the overall rank.  So, it goes from #1 to about 4.5 million because there are about 4.5 million eBooks signed up on Amazon right now.  That's the overall Amazon bestseller rank, and then there's your ranking inside of a certain category.  So, your overall rank is going to be based on the competition with every other book on Amazon, but inside of your category, you'll only be competing with the books that are listed in that category.  That's why you don't have to be #1 on Kindle; you can be #1 in some of the other 27,000 bestseller lists. Which of the Two Numbers Do I Need to Plug into the Calculator? Any of the generic, overall Amazon bestseller rankings.  It's going to be between one and 4.5 million.  You just copy and paste in that number, which is listed on the page of every single book listed on Amazon that has sold at least one copy.  Copy that number into the calculator, and it will tell you how many sales you need to hit in order to hit that ranking. Step 4 - Choose Two Target Categories Step #4 is you're going to choose two target categories.  So, you're going to actually select your categories on Amazon.  Like I said before, when you publish your book on Kindle through KDP, or a print book through CreateSpace, or any other Print-on-demand (POD) publisher, or Amazon merchant account, you're not going to be able to select all of the bestseller lists that are available for your book.  Essentially, the reason is that Amazon uses an internal database, and that's where it shows up on KDP when you publish your eBook on Amazon. But, when you actually look at the bestseller rankings on the website, the ones that your customers are finding on their computers, on their iPhone, on their iPads and their Kindle devices, those are all BISAC categories, which are essentially industry-standard categories.  This essentially gives you all of the databases for like libraries and all the various book industries use the BISAC category.  So, that's why Amazon has two different databases, and they just don't link up perfectly.  So, the simple solution is just every category you see on Amazon's website is the BISAC category; it is the correct category. Since you're doing your research on the website anyway, all you really have to do is just copy and paste those categories and just send Amazon a support email in your KDP account or your CreateSpace account saying, "Hey, can you please change my book to these categories?"  Then, you can just copy and paste them directly from the Amazon website, and they'll make that switch for you.  So, it's super-easy.  That's Step #4 and Step #5.  In Step #4, you're choosing your two target categories from Amazon's website. Step # 5  - Send an Email to Amazon Step #5 is sending an email into Amazon in order to get them to put you into those categories. How Does This Help Me to Become a Bestseller? Essentially, how this works is Amazon only lists the top 100 books in each category on their website, and on their list, when customers browse.  So, if customers are browsing the bestseller list to buy books, which they very often do, they are only going to see your book if your book is ranking in the top 100 of your given categories.  If your book is ranked #200 or even #101, it's not going to show up in those searches and you're not going to get exposure from it. Simply by changing your bestseller categories to categories that you can rank in the top 100 for, you're going to get more exposure, and you're going to get more traffic to your book, which obviously means more sales over time.  That's one of the huge benefits, but there's really a lot more.  You know, the thing with the publishing business is that it's very incremental.  Every little bit helps.  If an author is only selling 100 copies a year, it seems like it would be such a huge stretch to get to 1,000 copies a year, but really, it could be as simple as just changing the categories, or changing the book cover, or changing the subtitle, or changing a line in the book description. A simple change can make a huge difference over time, and this is one of those changes that we've noticed can make a huge difference.  We've had some of our clients' books sell hundreds and hundreds of books.  A lot of the time, we'll have clients that come from competitors, other self-publishers or publishing services, where they were self-published and they just wanted us to take it over and do their marketing, and simply by changing things like their categories, we've seen increases in sales as much as 173%.  It sounds like such a small thing like "Why do they do that?  Who really cares," but those small changes can make a huge difference over time. It's a long-term business. I think a lot of people have gotten into the Kindle publishing craze and are looking at it as a short-term opportunity to make a lot of money. But, it's the publishers that really look at the long-term that have been the most successful, by far.  We've been able to do things now, like doing book deals in different languages, and distributing books in Anacosto, and physical CD audio books, and all kinds of deals. If we had only focused on, "How can I make so much money this month," or focused on just short-term stuff, we wouldn't have been able to stick around to see these huge opportunities come around.  I think whenever you can focus on the long-term, and on quality, and on adding value to customers, that's where you're really going to get the biggest return over time. That's why I think categories are such a big deal.  It is about providing a better experience for your customers.  If you select the wrong categories, or just choose two random categories on Amazon, you might not be in the right place. You might not be where your customers are really looking for books like yours.  Since most authors haven't done this research, simply by doing it, you can always set yourself apart. Connecting with Tom You can check out my blog at TCKPublishing.com.  There's tons of great information and articles there.  That's where my book calculator is as well.  I do have a free training course for those who want to find out how to format your eBook for Kindle, how to get it published on Kindle, and how to do book launches and promotions.  It's all free at eBookPublishingSchool.com.  I also have a podcast called the Publishing Profits Podcast.  Every week we interview bestselling authors, publishing attorneys, accountants, lawyers, and agents.  Really, anyone in the industry that's doing awesome stuff and knows what's working right now for authors.  That's PublishingProfitsPodcast.com. Resources: Amazon Book Sales Calculator List of the Top 100 Most Competitive Amazon Kindle Bestseller Categories List of the Top 100 Least Competitive Amazon Kindle Bestseller Lists and Categories Kindle Direct Publishing CreateSpace How to Effectively Use a POD (Print On Demand) Publisher With Robin Cutler Real Fast Results Community If you are diggin’ on this stuff and really love what we’re doing here at Real Fast Results, would you please do me a favor? Head on over to iTunes, and make sure that you subscribe to this show, download it, and rate & review it. That would be an awesome thing. Of course, we also want to know your results. Please share those results with us at http://www.realfastresults.com/results. As always, go make results happen!

节目背景乐：Salade de Fruits--小野丽莎夏天来啦～露肉啦～～吃水果啦～～～黄瓜说：I expected him to be all nervous before his interview but he was as cool as a cucumber.我之前以为他在面试前会很紧张，但他很淡定。葡萄说：I don't think it's such a great job - and that's not just sour grapes because I didn't get it.我并不认为这份工作很好，并不是因为我得不到就吃不到葡萄说葡萄酸。香蕉说：There’s no such product than Apple that people go bananas over.没有比苹果产品更让人变得很激动了。苹果说：Tom is the apple of Mary's eye. She thinks he's the greatest.Tom是Mary的掌上明珠/心头所爱。在她看来，Tom是棒棒哒～～You can't talk about Fred and Ted at the same time! They're like apples and oranges. 你不能同时间提及Fred和Ted,他们根本就不是一个层次的。（两者风马牛不相及，没法比较）

On this episode of PIR Radio we have Big Foot Hunter Tom Biscardi on with us. Here is some info about Tom: You can [Join Tom Biscardi On Expedition To Find America's King Kong - Bigfoot]?Create. Biscardi's first company relating to Bigfoot research was "Amazing Horizons Corporation" in 1971. Tom talks about how he got into Bigfoot research: "I was watching John Carson in 1967, and I saw the first 8mm footage that Roger Patterson took of the Bluff Creek incident. I said to myself, 'How the hell can we send a man to the moon, but we can't find this creature'." "I went to the library and researched my predecessors, to see what kind of mistakes they had made, so that I could do better. I then started my own Bigfoot research company to stage expeditions to find the creature." "The recent Burney Mountain sighting of Bigfoot is the fifth time I've seen Bigfoot in 32 years. I've always had the love for the myths, the unknowns, and mysteries. When I entered into my freshman year of high school, a guidance counsellor asked me what I wanted to be. I said 'A palentologist of course, I love the study of fossils and bones.'" Tom Biscardi's favorite Biscardism is: "Positive Attitude" Must Be Followed By "Positive Action" to Achieve.... Says Bicardi, "There are two types of people, one finds a way,... one finds an excuse. I am the type of person who goes over, under, and around or through any obstacle that stands in my way!!! I can.. I will... I am going to!!! When the going gets tough, the tough get going! Every day and every way by the grace of God I am getting better and better!! I feel happy... I feel healthy... I feel terrific! After all, the mark of a person is not how far he runs from his problems, but how well he meets, faces and deals with those problems. That is truly the mark of a real human being. I can... I will... and I am going to succeed today!!!" Another great Biscardisms is: "Excuses are tools of incompetence to build monuments of nothing...." Thank you for your continued support and please visit our website at www.pirradio.com.