We're Not Marketers

Is product marketing really marketing? Or is it something more (or less)? In this deep-dive episode, Humans of MarTech co-founder Phil Gamache joins the crew to unpack what it truly means to be a marketer today—and why product marketing often feels like a misunderstood offshoot of the craft. From the forgotten “P” in the marketing mix to the role of AI in shaping how teams work together, this episode balances reflection, tactical insight, and Phil's unmistakable chill candor. Learn how product marketers can better collaborate with marketing ops, why summarizing research matters more than polishing the perfect message, and how GenAI will shift execution forever.The ultimate marketer and podcast legend educate us on:Why most customer research never gets shared—and how to fix itThe AI use case every PMM should be doing today (and probably isn't)“You can never give an LLM too much context”—unless you doPhil's rule of thumb: brief AI like you brief your analystThe PMM x Martech collab that unlocks ICP clarityThis one's a must-listen for any PMM trying to earn cross-functional credibility and not just ship decks no one reads.If you've ever felt like the ‘silent' in the marketing department, this episode will help you find your voice and your seat at the table.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Roundtable01:05 Introducing the Special Guest: Phil Gamache01:55 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?05:50 Phil's Experience with the Four P's of Marketing09:22 Challenges and Roles in Marketing Ops12:45 The Future of AI in Marketing24:30 The Current State of AI25:10 Leveraging AI for Customer Research29:06 Practical Tips for Summarizing Customer Interviews31:58 The Importance of Context in AI Prompts40:02 Collaborating with Marketing Ops for Better Data43:23 Exploring AI Tools: MidJourney vs. DALL-E45:30 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Phil's LinkedInHumans of Martech PodcastHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is working fractional that secret weapon for in-house PMMs? In this no-holds-barred episode, Eric, Zach, and Gab debate whether product marketers with fractional experience have an edge when they return in-house. We dive into the gritty reality of juggling multiple clients, the mental health rollercoaster of working solo, and why most people don't understand what it truly takes to do it. Tune in for honest insights, soul-crushing reality checks, and maybe a few Mexican oranges along the way.Here's what to expect when listening...The real reason in-house PMMs with fractional experience have better boundaries with their bossesWhy fractional PMMs develop stronger time management and communication skills than their in-house peersThe surprising statistic about entrepreneurship and mental health (entrepreneurs are 2x more likely to face depression)How building a side hustle while employed gave Zach a "running start" when he got laid offWhy hedging your bets with fractional work is smart even if you love your in-house jobThe brutal reality check: "I don't want to glorify the work...I was up at 4:30 AM doing work just to get ahead"When to know if fractional work is right for you (and who should absolutely avoid it)The truth about those LinkedIn success stories claiming "$20K/month after just 3 months"Time Stamps00:00 Introduction and Host Banter01:00 Episode Topic: Are in-house PMMs more effective with fractional experience?02:30 Defining Fractional PMM Work03:45 The Difference Between Client Relationships vs. Boss Relationships05:58 The Truth About Company "Family" Culture07:15 Advantages of Fractional Work (Scope Control, Premium Pay)08:20 Challenges of Pricing Fractional Services09:05 The Feast or Famine Reality of Fractional Work10:45 Building a Side Hustle While Working In-House12:02 Hedging Your Bets in an Uncertain Economy14:00 Exploring Why People Stay In-House vs. Going Fractional15:45 Finding Work You Actually Look Forward To18:12 Key Skills Developed Through Fractional Work21:00 The Mental Health Challenges of Solo Entrepreneurship22:15 Book Recommendation: "The Dip" by Seth Godin23:05 The Statistic on Entrepreneurship and Mental Health RisksHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this spicy episode, CEO & Founder of Foundation Marketing, Ross Simmonds reveals why content without distribution is just expensive digital paperwork. We dive into why product marketers ARE marketers (yes, even SEOs), how to build "content moats" that will still be paying dividends in 2030, and why LLMs will actually make SEO more valuable, not less. Ross drops some truth bombs about AI scraping the internet that might make you reconsider where you're spending your marketing budget.Why product marketing is just one layer of the "marketing onion" (and why that matters)The skills every marketer needs to develop if they want that sweet promotion (and bigger paycheck)Why your marketing strategy shouldn't mindlessly copy Canva's TikTok—even if it's working for themHow SEO experts accidentally taught ChatGPT everything it knows (and why Google still matters)The "content moat" strategy that will determine which companies dominate in 2030Why your CMO should be investing in content and SEO right now (before it's too late)How the rise of AI makes SEO MORE important, not less (despite what LinkedIn gurus say)The uncomfortable truth: if you can't sell your ideas internally, you're in the wrong jobHow to build "T-shaped" marketing skills (and why you need a capital "I" instead)If you want your content to actually drive results five years from now instead of disappearing into the digital void tomorrow, hit play. Ross reveals the distribution-first mindset that separates marketing that works from marketing that wastes.Show Notes00:41 Meet Our Guest: Ross Simmonds03:09 The Evolution of Marketing05:37 The T-Shaped Marketer10:03 Distribution First Mindset14:09 SEO and Product Marketing18:21 Investing in Content and SEO24:11 Effective Content Distribution31:18 Reflecting on Early Challenges31:58 Embracing AI for Content Distribution32:39 The Importance of Obsession and Continuous Learning34:20 Practical Steps to Stay Ahead in AI36:36 Building and Experimenting with AI Projects45:55 Sharing Ideas and Overcoming Self-Doubt49:10 The Power of Experimentation and Content Creation52:14 Final Thoughts and Future PlansHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are most B2B marketers actually doing customer research wrong? In this episode, Content Lift founder Ryan Paul Gibson reveals why "just talking to customers" isn't enough and why one-third of marketers can't even get access to customers at all. From his days timing how long people take to put cream in coffee to calling customers without permission, Ryan shares guerrilla tactics for getting real insights when your company stands in the way. Tune in for a masterclass in effective customer investigation that goes beyond the junk food advice most marketers are fed:Why most customer interviews produce useless insights that can't guide marketing decisionsThe 95-5 rule: Why 95% of your market isn't ready to buy (and why that's what marketers should focus on)How one simple purchase decision took Ryan three years to make (and why that destroys most marketing dashboards)Why B2B marketers who can't explain unit economics will always lose budget battlesThe fundamental difference between B2C and B2B that most founders don't understandHow Reddit changed B2B buying decisions forever (and why sales teams haven't caught up)If you've ever tried to make data-driven marketing decisions but got stuck with anecdotes instead of insights, this episode is your lifeline. Ryan shows you how to conduct customer research that actually informs strategy instead of just confirming what you already believe. Hit play to learn investigation techniques that will make your marketing budget work twice as hard.Timestamps:00:54 Meet Our Guest: Ryan Paul Gibson 01:50 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers? 02:49 The History and Evolution of Marketing 04:56 Ryan's Journey into B2B Marketing 10:00 Challenges in Product Marketing 14:54 The Importance of Customer Interviews 23:05 Understanding B2B Marketing Dynamics 30:24 Understanding Research Design 30:59 Challenges in Client Engagement 36:09 The Role of AI in Market Research 36:50 Qualitative Research and Thematic Analysis 38:47 Leveraging AI for Faster Insights 41:21 Contextualizing Data with AI 49:51 Effective Customer Conversations 57:02 Final Thoughts and Contact InformationShow Notes:"Crossing the Chasm" by Geoffrey Moore Ryan Paul Gibson's "DIY Customer Investigation Guide" Eisenberg 95-5 Rule Research Ryan's LinkedInHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is sounding "enterprise" killing your marketing message? In this episode, conversion copywriter Jessica Malnik joins the crew to expose why the most effective copy isn't about being clever—it's about stealing your customers' exact words. We dive into customer research plays you can use now, why corporate speak is a conversion killer, and how LinkedIn "lunatics" sacrifice credibility for clicks. Tune in for practical tips on creating content that actually converts instead of just sounding smart.What you get when you listenWhy product marketers are the "Swiss army knife" of marketing (and why that's a good thing)The surprisingly simple research hack top copywriters use to write enterprise copy that doesn't sound roboticThe hidden Reddit goldmine most marketers completely overlookHow AI can help you analyze 1,000+ customer comments in minutes (including the exact prompts to use)Why Jessica refuses to work with pre-revenue startups (and what this means for your messaging)The embarrassing LinkedIn trend that's landing marketers on the "LinkedIn Lunatic" subredditWhy "What's in it for them?" trumps creativity every single timeThe counterintuitive reason why Jessica actually prefers clients with no messaging briefThe three types of LinkedIn posts that drive real business (not just vanity metrics)Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction01:47 Jessica Malnick on Product Marketing03:36 Navigating Copywriting Challenges08:34 Human Touch in Copywriting10:08 Using Reddit for Audience Research11:27 Tools and Techniques for Copywriting18:34 LinkedIn Strategies for PMMs23:05 Final Thoughts and Resources26:16 Conclusion and Sign-OffWhy being human in your copy matters more in the age of AI than ever beforeHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

If you're tired of building landing pages that follow "best practices" but still fail to convert qualified leads, this episode will change everything. Whether you're a product marketer afraid of paid ads or a demand gen specialist struggling to get PMM buy-in, this episode will help you create pages that actually respect your buyers' intelligence while driving real business results.  This week, we've joined by Tas Bober, growth marketing advisor and Scroll Lab founder. She reveals why the traditional approach to landing pages and sales collateral is fundamentally broken.We're covering:Why most B2B landing pages look identical (and why everyone hates them)How hiding pricing backfires when buyers find wildly different answers on RedditThe simple reason most CTAs fail (and it has nothing to do with the button text)How B2B companies waste countless hours debating stock photos instead of fixing real problemsThe contrarian approach: Why a good landing page should DECREASE your conversion rate"No one buys pants on the first visit" - Why optimizing for direct conversions is misguidedHow to build a freelance business: "Back up your backup" and why your career hinges on your networkIn this episode, Tas explains to the misfits her "champion's business case" framework that replaces manipulative marketing tactics with transparent, value-focused content. She delivers practical wisdom for creating landing pages that treat buyers like adults. Listen for actionable insights on disqualifying bad-fit leads, writing effective CTAs, and building a foundation for freelance success beyond the corporate grind.Timestamps:02:43 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:38 "Product Marketers Are CEOs, Baby" - Why PMMs Run the Show07:00 The Biggest Red Flags on Landing Pages09:00 The Champion's Business Case Framework for Landing Pages12:25 What a Complete Business Case Contains14:25 Why PMMs Don't Like Paid Ads (But Should)17:00 Why PMMs Should Be Involved in Campaign Landing Pages22:00 How to Create Effective CTAs That Actually Convert27:00 Why Hiding Pricing Information Backfires31:12 The Truth About B2B Buying Behavior (It's Not What You Think)37:15 Why Good Landing Pages Decrease Conversion Rates45:00 How B2B Sales Collateral Overwhelms Buyers48:03 The MVP Approach to Landing Pages for Resource-Strapped PMMs54:15 The Problem with Obsessing Over Stock Photography57:22 How to Build a Successful Solo Consulting Business01:01:12 Building Your Network as Your Net WorthShow Notes:Tas LinkedInHer B2B website and landing page resource hub Tas Website Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever wonder why most bottom-of-funnel content feels generic and fails to convert? In this episode, content strategy advisor Lashay Lewis drops knowledge bombs on the critical gap between product marketing and content marketing. She breaks down why teams are working in silos, how bottom-funnel content fails when the reader knows more than the writer, and why product marketers are the unsung heroes of effective marketing. Why the knowledge level of the reader being higher than the writer kills bottom-funnel content conversionsThe reason most marketing teams fail to create effective bottom-funnel content "Micro action, macro patience": The mindset shift that can transform your career in 6 monthsWhy most companies operate like high school cliques, and how to break those silosThe uncomfortable truth: freelance writers can't create effective technical bottom-funnel contentListen for practical frameworks on cross-team collaboration and real talk on making the scary leap from full-time to fractional success.Timespan:02:12 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Product Marketers as Underutilized Marketing MVPs06:41 The Problem with Siloed Communication in Marketing Teams09:12 What is the Bottom of Funnel Gap?12:03 Why Bottom Funnel Content Fails to Convert14:53 Questions to Ask Different Teams for Effective Bottom Funnel Content19:12 Lashay's Journey to Building Bottom Funnel Expertise24:34 Transitioning from In-House to Consulting28:06 The Benefits of Leaving In-House for Consulting31:57 "The Pain of Staying the Same" Mindset36:41 Building Momentum with "Micro Action, Macro Patience"40:32 What's Next for Lashay and Where to Find HerShow Notes: Lashay on LinkedInRob Kaminsky and Anthony Pieri's Product Marketing ContentExit 5 Podcast Episode featuring Lashay LewisHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your win-loss data just expensive fiction written by your sales team? In this episode, Ryan Sorley (ex-Forrester, ex-Gartner) joins the crew to expose the hard truth about buyer research. From ripped jeans costing deals to bootstrapping a business while juggling kids and payroll, Ryan doesn't hold back on his journey from corporate misery to specialized success. Oh, and we uncovered the stupidly simple reason most product marketers fail at research. Tune in for honest laughs, real insights, and maybe a wake-up call about your "data."In this episode, we're covering:How to run a solo business when you have kids and bills to payThe "Taylor Swift Squad" theory of business growthWhy most buyer research is just wishful thinking with fancy graphsThe Powder Blue Taurus Moment: when Ryan knew corporate life was BSWhy writing a business plan is a complete waste of time for solopreneursHow Ryan went from 0 to 100 clients with ZERO salespeopleCheck out his new book Blindspots on Amazon too! Timestamps:01:00 Introducing Ryan Sorley, Win-Loss Research Expert02:36 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:15 Ryan's Take on Product Marketing as Research06:45 The Importance of Intentional Research10:00 The "Superpower" of Win-Loss Analysis12:34 The HubSpot Ripped Jeans Story17:15 Ryan's Entrepreneurial Journey19:00 The NJ Turnpike Moment: When Ryan Knew Corporate Life Wasn't for Him21:00 How Ryan Discovered the Win-Loss Opportunity23:45 Ryan's Transition from Gartner to Entrepreneurship27:00 What's the Minimum Viable Plan for Going Solo?30:00 The "Squad Life" Approach to Client Relationships34:00 The Dark Times: Managing Cash Flow and Contractors39:00 Specialization vs. Generalization in Consulting42:45 Ryan's New Book: "Blind Spots" (Launch April 1st)44:30 Closing Remarks and FarewellShow Notes:Ryan's LinkedInBlindspots on AmazonHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering:Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong)Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teamsThe one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your resultsThe critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers missHow to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediatelyIf you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective.Timestamps01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages?02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation  09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit)41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences44:35 Final Thoughts and Key TakeawaysShow notes:Victoria Rudi's Messaging FrameworksMessage Market Fit - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates.Freckle.io - The Clay alternative talked in the example Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we've just broken it now because we're getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time!The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We've talked about: ✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run!

Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer.Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai, says yes—and he's got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing.✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce).✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact.✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts?✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation.✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact.✅ Kyle's secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews).✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling.✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs.If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook.

We're kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she's joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business's success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We're talked about:

In this special recap, we dive into what it really means to be a product marketer in the ever-evolving B2B SaaS space—from defining the role to gaining the trust of executives and product teams. Hear first-hand advice on establishing boundaries, shaping product roadmaps, and showcasing your unique value. Tune in to discover how you can go from feeling misunderstood to being the unignorable voice in your organization.Why product marketing often feels misunderstood—and how to change that.The “secret sauce” to defining your role so everyone, from sales to CEOs, sees your impact.Strategies for sitting in a “neutral” spot on the org chart (and why it's a dream setup).Insider tips for positioning your product before it's built—so buyers are ready to say “yes.”How to set healthy boundaries with tasks that aren't in your zone of genius.This episode is featuring episodes clips from Tamara Grominsky, Dave Gerhardt, and April Dunford.Give it a listen prior to season 4 launching in 2 weeks! Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise? In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates. If you've ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one's for you.What You'll Learn in This Episode:→ The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams→ Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content→ The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign→ How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling→ The power of creative freedom—why it's the ultimate flex in B2B marketing→ The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands→ When it's too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception→ How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers sayListen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming ProjectsShow Notes:The Reeder WebsiteReed between the lines podcastDevin's LinkedIn Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever wondered how a band of misfits turned shared frustrations into a thriving podcast? In this episode, we're sharing our origin story, revealing how they met, bonded over common pain points in the product marketing world, and turned candid conversations into a platform that challenges industry norms. Packed with spicy takes, behind-the-scenes laughs, and actionable advice, this episode is a testament to the power of finding your people and staying true to your vision. How PMM frustrations sparked the idea for the We're Not Marketers podcast.How we've turned banter and venting sessions into a thriving community.The secret to developing a contrarian yet authentic point of view.Why we stand out in a crowded product marketing landscape.Message testing and building a relatable brand voice.Tune in to discover why authenticity, fun, and a unique point of view are the ultimate game-changers.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Episode Context01:32 Meet the Hosts01:59 How We Met and Formed the Podcast02:34 The Organic Evolution of the Show04:13 Challenges and Dynamics of Product Marketing06:52 Developing a Unique Point of View09:46 Contrarian Perspectives and Testing Ideas12:57 The Role and Identity of Product Marketers21:11 Positioning and Future of Product Marketing24:23 Tattoos in the Workplace: A Changing Perspective25:09 Belief in Our Mission: Every Day Commitment26:08 Navigating Skepticism and Valuing Disagreement26:51 Embracing Learning and Marketing Communities30:04 The Freedom of Creative Expression35:03 The Importance of Fun in Work40:40 Stoic Wisdom and Final ThoughtsShow Notes:Navattic - State of the Interactive Demo 2025Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Are you ready to take the leap into fractional work?In this episode of We're Not Marketers, Gab, Zach, and Eric dive into the realities, challenges, and triumphs of betting on yourself as a fractional Product Marketing Manager (PMM). They explore:The mindset shifts required to succeed in a fractional career.Lessons learned from building your niche and refining your offer.How confidence, community, and obsession fuel success.Why intentional trade-offs and clear goals are the foundation for thriving as a solopreneur.From navigating imposter syndrome to celebrating small wins, this conversation is packed with practical tips and inspiring insights to help you find your footing and take control of your career.Whether you're a PMM considering the fractional path or a solopreneur looking to sharpen your approach, this episode offers the advice and encouragement you need to bet on yourself and thrive.

The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job. Today, we're having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers).Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should look like.He has 13+ years of experience as a marketer and believes in getting things done (we appreciate it too!). In this episode, we're covering:The importance of understanding your target audienceWhy research can help you communicate your product valueThe difference between storytelling and the formatChallenges of PMMs and if they are marketersCommon startup mistakes in messagingThe best time to drink beerSo grab a beer with us and let's chat product marketing

Making your mark as a founding PMM is very difficult, especially when the role itself has an identity crisis.That's why we've asked three product marketers from our audience to join us to talk about their experience, and how to prove themselves valuable (especially when everything wants you to fail)This week, we're inviting Shoshana Kordova, Aphrodite Brinsmead, and Elliott Rayner to discuss the multifaceted role of product marketingIn this special episode, we're covering:The significance of clear messagingAI's potential for PMMsThe inherent identity crisis within our fieldStrategies for establishing effective product marketingThe necessity of a 30-60-90 day plan. This episode was made special because we've asked our listeners to join us and they accepted, so please, give us feedback and send us messages! We read everything

Episode Description:In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we're diving deep with Rob Kaminski, one-half of the dynamic duo behind Fletch PMM. Rob's journey is a masterclass in transitioning from a generalist's toolkit to a hyper-focused niche, unlocking unparalleled expertise along the way.Together, we explore the unconventional path that led Rob and his co-founder Anthony Pierri to redefine positioning and messaging for early-stage SaaS companies, focusing on the all-important homepage.What you'll learn:How to start building a market map and niche down effectively.Why being “too broad” can sabotage your positioning (and how to avoid it).The surprising power of debating with a partner to spark innovation.Why specificity is the ultimate superpower in product marketing.A behind-the-scenes look at Fletch's process of refining their service and attracting their first 25 clients.And, hear Rob's take on ‘how to position a platform', specifically the same Q we asked April Dunford last month. Who's answer will you like more: Rob's or April's? Whether you're a product marketer looking to sharpen your craft, an aspiring fractional PMM, or just curious about what it takes to truly differentiate yourself in a crowded market, this episode is packed with insights, inspiration, and actionable advice.Tune in to hear Rob's honest, no-holds-barred take on finding your focus and making it count.Show Notes 01:34 Introducing the Special Guest: Rob Kaminski02:32 Rob Kaminski's Career Journey04:36 The Role of Product Marketers06:25 Challenges in Product Marketing07:50 Importance of Execution in Strategy10:41 Navigating Internal Influence13:46 The Value of External Perspectives17:58 Building a Fractional Service19:57 Experimentation and Iteration24:14 Starting and Scaling a Fractional Business34:49 Cold Outreach and Building Expertise35:47 The Power of Niching Down37:51 Partnership Dynamics and Decision Making41:57 Creating Forcing Functions and Urgency43:51 The Importance of Specialization50:56 Positioning and Messaging Strategies59:42 Closing Thoughts and FarewellsHow to connect with RobRob Kaminski LinkedIn Profile FletchPMM websiteHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? You're not alone.In this episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the field, this conversation is packed with timeless advice, relatable stories, and strategies to help you identify your strengths and position yourself effectively.What's Inside This Episode?Self-discovery exercises for PMMs: From creating a “win list” to identifying transferable skills.Positioning yourself for success: Why knowing your competitive strength is key for landing the right roles.Experimentation is key: How trying different PMM functions (like pricing or messaging) can reveal your passions.Practical tools: Use energy-mapping techniques to uncover the tasks that fuel your motivation and career growth.Standing out in the crowd: Why specializing in a niche or showcasing your work is a game-changer.Confidence and mindset: The power of affirmations and self-belief in defining and owning your PMM identity.Who's This Episode For?Startup PMMs and fractional product marketers in B2B SaaS who're looking to differentiate themselves and feel unignorable in their roles.Key Takeaway:Your superpower isn't just a skill—it's how you position yourself and align your passions with business needs. Stop blending in and start standing out by owning your unique value.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Welcome01:01 Casual Banter and Golf Talk01:49 Understanding Your PMM Role02:26 Personal Experiences in Product Marketing03:33 Finding Your Competitive Strength04:48 Exploring Different Aspects of PMM06:57 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome07:51 Leveraging Your Superpower09:34 Practical Advice for PMMs14:29 The Importance of Confidence23:24 Final Thoughts and ConclusionSponsorZach Messler with Clarityrules.comHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this next episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and challenges that come with it today. Key highlights include:- The Core Identity of Product Marketers: Rahim argues that product marketers are unequivocally marketers, backed by data showing 81% of PMMs report directly to marketing teams.- Shifting Expectations and Responsibilities: Learn about the changing scope of product marketing, from content creation roles to strategic leaders in positioning and storytelling.- Strategic Insights on Launch Cadences: Rahim discusses the importance of aligning release cycles with customer adoption capabilities and how to avoid launch fatigue.- Must-Have PMM Skills: Emphasis on the significance of data literacy, with tips on upskilling and resources like the Data Literacy Project.- Build Internal Influence: Best practices to clarify PMM roles through charters and RACI models to strengthen cross-functional alignment.The conversation also touches on the growth of fractional product marketers, the implications of market trends, and advice on how PMMs can elevate their strategic influence internally.Whether you're a seasoned product marketer or just starting out, this episode is packed with practical tips, valuable research insights (umm Gartner, bro), and a clear roadmap to reinforce PMM's impact in any company. Tune in for a ‘deep-sea of research' dive of how PMMs can thrive in today's competitive landscape.Time Stamps 02:11 Rahim's Background and Role at Gartner03:15 Are Product Marketers Really Marketers?07:06 Challenges and Misunderstandings in Product Marketing09:51 The Evolution of Product Marketing14:56 Data Literacy in Product Marketing18:12 Impact of Layoffs on Product Marketing21:04 Rise of Fractional Product Marketers23:46 Specialization in Product Marketing25:28 The Appeal of Fractional Product Marketing27:06 Challenges and Strategies for PMMs28:49 Effective Product Launch Strategies33:22 Balancing Product and Marketing Priorities34:44 The Role of PMMs in Organizations38:06 Building a Product Marketing Charter44:16 Using Gartner InsightsWhere more to follow and connect with Rahim?Rahim Kaba LinkedIn Gartner Time to Value PodcastGartner for High Tech LinkedIn PageFree Gartner Webinar Recording: How Growth Organizations Source Critical PMM SkillsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone who's on the layoff list.Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product marketing and leveraging projects short-cuts to ship more is Jess Petrella, Senior Product Marketing Manager (PMM) at ZayZoon, and she has an amazing take on becoming an efficient PMM.We discussed how AI can enhance the PMMs' capacity to analyze data and analyze opportunities, the importance of proximity with product teams, and the skills necessary for PMMs to co-create product roadmaps. The episode provides practical advice for aspiring PMMs and reflects on how to navigate better the challenges of the profession, from someone who just built the function from scratch. We talk about:Use AI for quicker data synthesis and opportunity analysisBuild advocacy skills to align with other teamsStrengthen connections with product teamsCollaborate on roadmaps to grow your roleGain skills to impact product decisionsSimplify tasks with AI to increase outputDiscover how you can build more influence as a PMM with the help of AI! Timespan:01:04 Discussing Product Marketing and Launches02:16 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:15 The Evolution of Product Marketing05:21 Building Influence as a Product Marketer17:43 Leveraging AI in Product Marketing28:53 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Jess LinkedInhttps://pmmops.com/Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. It's all sharing the same trauma that people don't understand product marketing. We've seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even did a talk about it at PMA Boston.And we were lucky enough to have her sharing them on the pod, just in time for Halloween

For PMMs, it can be difficult to have a good relationship with sales, especially in new roles. Win-loss analysis and interviews can be a good win when you see that close-lost column piling up on the CRM pipeline.But how can you take another responsibility on your to-do when you're already swamped?Matthew Reeves, CEO and co-founder of GoldPan, runs a win-loss analysis agency. In this episode, he's showing us:How to build rapport with sales teamsThe complexities of positioning and messagingWhy you need both wins and losses for good research. Why information overload kill sales. The nuanced value of churn analysis. Hear also the very unique take of Matthew on if product marketers are marketers, we can't say we heard this one yet!Timespan:00:00 Welcome to We're Not Marketers00:19 Introducing Matthew Reeves, CEO of GoldPan01:37 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:49 The Evolution and Challenges of Marketing12:21 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis21:31 Building Rapport Between Product Marketers and Sales34:25 Sales Missteps and Buyer Uncertainty34:59 Understanding Product Assessment35:34 The Role of Risk and Values in Buying Decisions37:01 Challenges in Product Marketing37:48 The Importance of Win-Loss Analysis38:39 Switching Costs and Product Marketing40:34 Effective Sales Messaging43:14 The Buyer-Seller Dynamic50:06 The Value of Churn Analysis54:29 Bad Sales Experiences01:01:33 Closing Thoughts and Future PlansShow Notes:Matthew's LinkedInGoldpan websiteHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Get ready for some real talk about positioning! In this episode, we sit down with the queen of positioning herself, April Dunford. If your startup's positioning feels a little “mushy” or your product is getting compared to everyone under the sun, this episode is for you. April shares her no-nonsense approach to tightening up your message and teaching your CEO why positioning isn't just some abstract marketing concept—it's the foundation of your success. Whether you're battling internal buy-in or figuring out how to stand out in a crowded market, April's got the answers (plus a few hilarious takes on toilets and camping). Here's what you're missing, by not listening:Is your product positioning “mushy”? Learn why vague messaging is killing your pitch—and how to fix it.The secret weapon for startups: April's advice on involving sales and product teams in positioning.Why “actionable insights” aren't really actionable: How to cut the jargon and speak your customer's language.CEO thinks their product positioning is fine? April's roadmap to making them see the problem—without calling their baby ugly.Positioning vs. features: Why selling value over features is your ultimate key to success.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message01:05 Meet the Hosts and Guest Introduction01:39 April Dunford on Product Marketing03:25 The Role of Positioning in Startups09:17 Building Influence as a Product Marketer23:27 Fun and Games with April Dunford34:26 Discovering Catan: A Board Game Revelation35:00 Building Dreams: Choosing the Perfect Cottage Location36:10 Torture Chamber Round: Birds or Stars?38:42 The Cardinal Sins of Product Positioning43:33 Selling Platforms: Value Over Features01:00:17 The Art of Persuasive Writing in Marketing01:04:52 Career Advice for Product Marketers01:11:01 Engage with April Dunford: Books, Podcasts, and MoreResourcesApril Dunford LinkedInApril Dunford websiteApril Dunford's Positioning Podcast Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Dealing with the chaos of being a PMM while trying to balance the rest of your life? You're not alone.In this candid episode of We're Not Marketers, Zach, Eric, and Gab dive into the realities of managing life as a Product Marketing Manager, whether you're in-house or fractional. From overwhelming work expectations to the struggle of balancing personal life, the team discusses how to protect your mental health while handling an always-on work culture. They share personal stories, tips like setting boundaries, removing work apps from phones, and practical advice on how to deal with burnout. If you're feeling the strain of managing your career, relationships, and self-care, this episode is a must-listen.Key takeaways include:Strategies to create separation between work and personal time (e.g., daily rituals, setting boundaries, Slack detox).Real-talk about burnout and why mental health shouldn't be just a “corporate benefit.”Practical tips on saying “no” to unrealistic requests and protecting your productivity.How fractional PMMs handle the pressure of multiple clients while in-house PMMs navigate endless internal demands.Tune in to hear the team's perspectives on how to reclaim balance and stay sane as a PMM.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message01:02 The Challenges of Being a Product Marketer02:22 In-House vs. Fractional Product Marketing04:45 Balancing Work and Personal Life07:41 Setting Boundaries and Mental Health22:02 Productivity Tips and Techniques30:50 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we sit down with the one and only Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io, who drops a major hot take—product marketers aren't marketers (wait, what?!). But Jeff doesn't stop there. He believes PMMs are the future leaders of marketing, and he's got the experience and insights to back it up.Tune in as we dive into the evolving role of product marketers in B2B SaaS. From positioning and messaging to why PMMs have the potential to become CMOs, Jeff shares his journey and unique approach to blending product and brand marketing. We also tackle the age-old question: how can PMMs build better relationships with their brand teams?Whether you're a PMM ready to shake up your organization or just curious about where this role is headed, this convo is one you don't want to miss:PMMs vs. Marketers: Jeff's surprising take on why product marketers aren't really marketers.The Future CMO Pipeline: Why Jeff believes product marketers are primed to become the next generation of marketing leaders.The Art of Brand Storytelling: How product marketers can elevate their influence by mastering brand marketing collaboration.Hiring Hacks: Jeff's refreshing approach to recruitment, and why he believes hiring managers have a deeper responsibility than you think.Copycats Beware: How to stay a step ahead of competitors who love to swipe your messaging.Time Stamps 00:00 Introduction and Host Intros00:56 Special Guest Introduction: Jeff02:02 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:35 The Future of Product Marketing08:55 Building Cross-Functional Relationships10:48 The Role of Brand Marketing14:30 Hiring and Leadership Insights36:21 Dealing with Competitors43:46 Conclusion and Sign-OffShow NotesJeff Chase LinkedIn ProfileHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this episode, Jarod Greene, CMO of Vivint, shares his journey from teaching middle school math to Gartner analyst to CMO today and offers actionable advice for PMMs struggling to gain recognition. Learn how to use research, co-create with sales, and communicate your value to drive impactful product marketing strategies in your workplace.When you let Jarod cook (#lethimcook) and you're gonna get…How teaching 7th graders prepared Jarod to lead B2B marketing strategy—and why it's still the hardest job he's ever done.The “magician” role of product marketers: Why being a chameleon is the ultimate superpower in your company (and how to harness it).Co-create with sales? Yes, please. The surprising reason your best sales reps should help write your next piece of content.Forget the committee—Jarod's trick to stop internal fights over messaging using the one thing no one can argue with: Data.“I had no idea what PMM was 10 years ago” – how Jarod went from confused to CMO and why it could be your career roadmap too.Content without context = chaos. Jarod's formula for why great content flops (and how to make it land every time).How to manage up, down, and sideways: Jarod's guide to becoming a leader before you even get the title.Time Stamps 00:00 We're Not Marketers (S3) - Jarod Greene01:00 Welcome to Season Three!01:46 Introducing Gerard Green03:01 From Teaching to Marketing05:15 The Role of Product Marketers07:15 Becoming a CMO18:03 Content with Context22:19 Co-Creating with Sales28:20 The Content Production Dilemma29:07 The Importance of Research in Marketing30:27 Primary vs. Secondary Research31:22 Leveraging Data for Decision Making39:43 Integrating AI in Marketing Strategies43:34 The Reality of Product Market Fit51:21 Upcoming Projects and EventsShow NotesJarod Greene LinkedIn ProfileUNXPCTD - Explore way AI is revolutionizing B2B Sales Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

There are many different flavors of product marketers, whether you're in-house or fractional like our host, you need to be aware of your special sauce

After 29 episodes, we're finally closing down our season 2 and we're taking this opportunity to circle back on why PMMs are misunderstood today in B2B SaaS. Being misunderstood isn't the problem, it's the apathy from colleagues and management regarding our roles and responsibilities. But we should be proud of being misfits because it's our uniqueness that can have a real impact on our jobs. All we need is more influence and less apathy. In this episode, we're going back on why we started the pod, how we're researching our market, find new episode topics, and a special way on how you can be on the pod for upcoming seasons: → The key takeaways from this season that every PMM should know → Our thoughts on the future of Product Marketing and what's on the horizon → What is the misfit madness and how can you be a special guest Tune in for the last time of season 2, and enjoy a monthly break of not hearing us talk about product marketing

Timeline:00:17 - Meet Emma Stratton: Life Coach and Messaging Expert03:03 - Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?06:45 - Embracing the Misfit Identity in Product Marketing12:15 - Handling Messaging Challenges and CEO Fears21:05 - Transitioning to Entrepreneurship: When is the Right Time?26:50 - Work-Life Harmony: Balancing Energy Drainers and Energizers32:35 - Avoiding Company Politics and Aligning Teams38:15 - Real-life Example: Messaging for an Australian Data Company45:07 - Emma's Upcoming Book: Make It Punchy47:10 - Torture Chamber Game: Cringey Marketing Terms55:00 - Final Thoughts and Staying Connected with Emma Show Notes:Emma's book: Make It Punchy: How to Write Simple Tech Messaging That Wins Hearts, Minds, and Markets (Pre-order now)Punchy messaging newsletterFollow Emma Stratton on LinkedIn

Timestamps:01:36 PMM jobs and LinkedIn trends.03:00 Discussion about job application experiences and interview etiquette.05:00 Gab shares a story about a go-to-market assignment.08:00 Eric shares a story about interviewing with a competitor.12:00 Zach shares a story about a poor recruiting experience.16:00 Eric discusses a job that ended up being a bad fit.19:00 Discussion on hiring practices and candidate experiences.22:00 Importance of clear expectations and roles in hiring.24:00 The value of specific hiring criteria and trust in the hiring process.27:00 The benefits of private communities for job searching.30:00 Gab's experience with irrelevant job postings.33:00 Eric and Zach discuss the value of consulting and contracting as a career approach.36:00 Final thoughts on hiring practices and candidate experience.40:00 Additional anecdotes and reflections on job search experiences.45:00 Tips for navigating the PMM job market.50:00 Closing remarks and promotions for the newsletter and sponsors.52:00 Outro and end of episode. Show Notes: ⁠Inc Authority (LLC Formation)⁠⁠Exit Five Community⁠⁠Healthy Competition Community⁠

Timestamps00:43 Introducing of Julien Sauvage01:57 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?06:41 The Role of Boldness in Marketing14:06 Event Branding Success at Clari17:17 The Einstein Smart Speaker Flop20:24 Reflecting on Dreamforce's Gimmicks22:38 The Importance of Data in Product Marketing24:43 Challenges and Realities of PMM30:31 The Role of Copywriting in PMM38:59 Final Thoughts and Farewell Show Notes :Julien's LinkedInContent That Converts guide (by Devin Reed)

Timestamps1:00: Introduction of Pat Wall5:00: Role of product marketers7:00: CI and product marketing8:30: Evolution of CI in Pat's career10:00: Building a CI program13:00: Effective sales enablement15:00: Internal branding17:00: "Torture Chamber" game20:00: Engaging sales teams24:00: Impactful enablement sessions26:00: Leveraging top performers28:00: Integrating CI and product marketing30:00: Tips for building a CI program32:00: Pat's future projects34:00: Thank you and closing remarks Show NotesPat's LinkedIn

Timestamps:00:52 Discussing Target Audience01:40 Horror Stories of Target Audience05:14 Challenges in Messaging and Segmentation14:23 Examples of Poor Market Segmentation21:49 Effective Segmentation Strategies32:15 The Power of Storytelling34:35 Understanding Your Audience38:19 Innovative Research Techniques Show Notes:Mercury EqualsArc BrowserFigmaDevin ReedClayton ChristensenOur website

Timestamps:0:00 The one word most miss in "product marketing" with Becky Trevino00:16 Introduction and Hosts Banter01:08 Introducing Special Guest Becky Trevino01:55 Becky's Career Journey and Unique Perspective02:49 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?05:05 Defining Product Market Fit07:44 Product Marketing Superpowers10:12 The Art of Storytelling in Product Marketing15:31 Torture Chamber: Tough Choices in Product Strategy19:08 Should Product Marketing Live Within Product?22:38 Building Strong Relationships with Product Managers23:09 Navigating New Challenges in a New Role24:50 Leading Commercial Reviews and Gaining Respect26:03 Balancing Technical and Marketing Perspectives27:55 The Role of AI in Product Marketing33:33 Balancing Present Offerings with Future Roadmaps Show Notes:Becky Trevino LinkedIn 

Timestamps:01:05 Dave's Journey and Podcasting Tips04:18 The Importance of Product Marketing06:16 Early Stage Marketing Strategies13:29 Building Trust and Influence in Startups20:24 Positioning and Messaging Challenges24:42 Addressing the Decline in Win Rate25:24 Importance of Executing Positioning25:57 Casual Conversation and Personal Interests26:58 Messaging Torture Chamber27:31 Marketing Strategies: Brand vs. Content29:14 Event Marketing Insights30:59 Simplifying B2B Marketing34:38 The Role of Podcasts in B2B Marketing41:23 Conclusion and Upcoming Events Show Notes:Founder BrandDave LinkedInDave Kellog BlogExit Five CommunityThe Exit Five Podcast

Timestamps00:20 Guest Introduction: Anna Borbotko06:17 TomTom's Evolution and Market Strategy10:25 Challenges and Strategies in Enterprise Product Marketing12:48 Cold Outreach Pilot Program16:27 Enterprise vs. Startup Dynamics18:30 The Evolution of Software Buying19:13 Challenges in the Automotive Industry19:32 Simplifying the Buying Process20:47 Sales and Buyer Enablement23:25 Marketing's Role in Buyer Enablement26:15 The Importance of Effective Collateral29:44 The Torture Chamber33:17 Anna's Initiatives and Final Thoughts Show Notes:Anna's LinkedIn    

Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Introductions01:18 The Importance of Training in Product Marketing01:54 Identifying Unique Superpowers07:18 The Value of Formal Education and Certifications16:42 Applying Knowledge in Real-World Scenarios19:41 Leveraging Data Analytics in Product Marketing26:13 Continuous Learning and Networking33:01 Conclusion and Newsletter Promotion Show Notes:Million Dollar ConsultingYi Lin Pei's The PMM Dream Job Blueprint Ready for LaunchB2B Messaging CourseYerba MATTTEEEEEE

Timestamps00:00 Introduction and Host Intros01:07 Meet Our Guest: Carlota Guell03:28 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?08:18 B2B vs B2C Marketing Insights20:36 The Emotional Buying Pyramid24:22 Fun Lightning Round with Carlota26:43 Closing Remarks and Where to Find Carlota Show NotesProduct Marketing Stories podcastCarlota Guell's LinkedIn profile 

Timestamps:00:00 Welcome to the Misfit Podcast: Unveiling the World of Product Marketing00:16 Special Guest Harvey Lee: From Business to Rockstar01:45 The Great Debate: Are Marketers Really Marketers?05:14 A Dive into Marketing History with the McElroy Memo12:01 The Evolution of Product Marketing in the Digital Age18:43 Navigating the Pathways to Becoming a Full Stack Marketer21:45 The Journey from Sales, CS, to Product Marketing: A Comparative Analysis26:42 Debunking Marketing Myths: Beyond 'Build It and They Will Come'27:58 The Importance of Marketing Training and Accessibility28:51 Harvey's Journey: Leaving PMA and Embracing Advisory Roles34:16 The Power of Fit in Hiring and Career Growth38:29 Mastering Product Marketing: Skills, Training, and Community41:13 Harvey Lee's Insights: Full Stack Marketing and Beyond44:16 Connecting with Harvey Lee: Books, Awards, and More Show Notes:⁠ Below the Waterline Newsletter⁠⁠Get his book Backstage Pass⁠⁠Harvey's Website⁠⁠Harvey's LinkedIn ⁠

Show Notes0:00 Standing tall in a "layoff-heavy" PMM job market w/ Yi Lin Pei00:00 Welcome to the Misfit Podcast: Unveiling Product Marketing Mysteries00:17 Introducing Yi Lin Pei: From Visual Artist to Product Marketing Pro03:03 The Unique Role of Product Marketers: Strategists, Not Just Marketers06:07 Mastering Product Marketing: Strategies for Success and Growth10:15 The Torture Chamber Game: Tough Choices for a Product Marketer21:05 Navigating Layoffs: Yi Lin's Perspective and Support for PMMs21:39 Navigating the Challenging Job Market: Strategies and Insights22:51 Differentiation in Job Applications: Standing Out in a Competitive Market23:37 Career Switching Advice: Embracing Stepping Stone Roles24:45 Personal Success Stories: Leveraging Unique Backgrounds for Career Advancement27:15 The Importance of Differentiation Throughout the Hiring Process32:03 Advocacy and Representation: Addressing Underrepresentation in Tech38:35 Leadership and Advocacy: Supporting Underrepresented Groups in the Workplace44:07 Yi Lin's PMM Superpower and Final Thoughts Resources:Courageous Careers Newsletter⁠⁠Positioning for Growth podcast⁠⁠Yi Lin Pei LinkedIn

Timestamps:00:00 Welcome to Season 2: The Unforgettable Comeback00:55 The Big Reveal: Why We Faked Our Podcast's Death02:59 Emotional Engagement and Its Impact05:22 The Aftermath: Listener Reactions and Personal Reflections12:53 Introducing the Newsletter: A New Way to Engage15:52 The Misfit Community: Engaging with Our Audience17:17 Kicking Off with Casual Banter17:48 Deep Dive into Emotional Engagement20:02 Exploring Product Marketing Challenges24:58 Personal Growth and Professional Evolution27:05 Embracing the Consulting Journey33:06 Wrapping Up and Looking Forward Show notes:⁠We're Not Marketers Website⁠⁠Dying 4 Influence Newsletter⁠⁠Ruben Studdard's Sorry 2004⁠

Timestamps:01:45 WNM origin story05:40 How we came up with the name14:00 The skeleton branding26:09 Consistency and humor in our marketing31:28 Consistency in podcasting34:43 Our differentiation and favorite guests48:10 Survey results with Adam McQueen from Klue01:03:14 Final verdict and end of the podcast? Show Notes:The original We're Not Marketers postAdam McQueen LinkedIn 

 Timestamps:01:39 The role of product marketing in the B2B landscape03:14 Why website ownership and conversion rates matter for PMMs04:42 Challenges and strategies to be aware when managing website messaging06:52 The evolution and future of message testing07:22 CEO's Role as a product Marketer in Startups09:53 Why messaging is underestimated in B2B13:05 Message testing and market trends16:24 Advices for solo PMM on messaging19:38 How to improve your message clarity and relevance20:56 How to leverage customer feedback with your messaging24:29 How Peep is building influence and engaging on LinkedIn26:43 What makes Spryng different from other B2B events29:42 The Messaging Torture Chamber34:19 Where to find Peep and learn more from him Show Notes:WynterHemingway AppSales Pitch by April DunfordB2B Messaging courseSpryng event Peep LinkedIn 

Timestamps:02:47 Clara's Journey into Competitive Intelligence03:45 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?05:10 The Role of Competitive Intelligence in Revenue Generation08:01 The Importance of Being Selfless in Product Marketing10:33 Ideal Structure for Competitive Intelligence13:02 Misconceptions about Competitive Intelligence16:22 The Power of Competitive Intelligence Newsletters19:21 Building a Content Creation Team21:31 Investing in Competitive Intelligence25:23 The Evolution of Competitive Intelligence28:20 Handling Internal Requests and Prioritizing Competitors34:00 Special Projects and Where to Find Clara Show Notes:Clara LinkedIn Back Office to Boardroom SpotifyBack Office to Boardroom Apple Podcasts

Timestamps:  01:30 Zach Messler's Background and Journey03:20 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?09:26 Zach's Philosophy and Approach to Marketing18:27 The Importance of Clarity in Messaging20:11 The Hierarchy of Clarity24:56 The Power of Context in Messaging30:31 The Importance of Context in Problem-Solution Approach31:44 The Role of Product Marketers and Its Challenges32:28 Strategies to Enhance Product Marketing Role33:12 The Power of Negotiation in Product Marketing37:31 The Impact of Trade Shows in Product Marketing39:52 The Art of Messaging in Product Marketing48:23 The Essence of Product Messaging Show notes:Zach LinkedIn Never split the difference by Christopher VossClarity Rules

Timestamps:00:24 The Importance of Data in Marketing05:12 Effective Storytelling with Data07:20 The Power of Positioning and Market Insight11:57 The Balance Between Creativity and Metrics16:42 The Challenges of Data Analytics in Product Marketing21:17 Measuring Podcasts for Thought Leadership24:00 The Problem of Instant Gratification28:20 The Importance of Balance in Growth31:26 The Role of Data in Guiding Initiatives33:21 The Power of Gut Feeling and Hard Work Show Notes:April Dunford Positioning PodcastFletchPMM Notion CheatsheetDevin Reed LinkedInProductivePMM Notion Hub

Timestamps:01:37: Transitioning from non-profit to tech2:02: Collin's background as a preacher up to product marketing4:47: Are product marketers actually marketers?7:32: Collin's approach as a founding PMM09:32: Defining product marketing in a new role11:16: The importance of building relationships12:29: Balancing short-term and long-term goals14:30: Leadership in product marketing16:25: The importance of building credibility18:12: Setting boundaries and building respect21:11: The rule of reciprocity in product marketing23:51: Sharing and building credibility  27:38: Lightning round  Show Notes:Collin LinkedIn

Timestamps:01:02: Madison's journey to product marketing02:11: Transitioning from B2C to B2B02:58: Madison's current role and GTM strategy passion05:37: Are product marketers actually marketers?07:56: The disconnect between marketing and sales12:11: The role of product marketing in Go-to-market18:07: Building trust and influencing change in organizations22:47: The shift from B2B to PLG32:39: Where to find Madison and learn more about her workShow Notes:Madison LinkedInSaaS Secrets newsletter

Timestamps:01:17: Eric's layoff experience04:12: Zach's layoff experience10:24: The state of layoffs and product marketing in the US12:34: Taking the solopreneur road after being laid off14:00: The stress of the first 90 days as a PMM15:53: Specialist vs. generalist PMM18:27: How to position yourself as a PMM and be memorable22:31: How can you make your next job search a success Show Notes:Emma Stratton LinkedInProduct Marketing Alliance Salary ReportPersonal Positioning from Tamara GrominskyPractical Positioning Guide from Jess PetrellaTealHQ.com - CRM for job searchStillhiring.today - Job boardLavender AI - How to write great email to hiring managersAligned - Digital Salesroom to showcase your workHealthy Competition - CI CommunityPMMCamp - Product Marketing Community