Podcasts about pmms

Welcome Shannon Vettes, CEO and SPO at Usersnap, to unpack the real value of Product Marketing and why PMMs should be involved long before a feature is ready to ship. Shannon shares why she sees PMMs as strategic partners, not content producers.What we cover:

Product marketers aren't marketers—they're non-conformist rebels! Amanda Groves, VP of PMM at Enable, who rocketed from IC to VP in just 2 years explains why. She breaks down why PMMs need to be trolls under bridges, why slowing down actually speeds you up, and how painting and ultra marathons make her a better leader. We dive into the PMM-to-CMO pipeline, fighting AI Mad Libs, and why the best product marketers challenge everything with intention. Warning: This episode might make you quit conforming and start rebelling.What to gather in this convo: • How to go from IC to VP of PMM in just 2 years (hint: be a rebel) • Why product marketers should be "trolls under bridges" • The slow-down-to-speed-up philosophy that's breaking Silicon Valley • What ultra marathons teach you about product marketing leadership • Why painting on the side makes you a better PMM leader • The "controllables vs. uncontrollables" framework that saves careers • How to fight the AI Mad Lib epidemic in your messaging • Why more PMMs should be gunning for CMO (and how to get there) • The non-conformist hiring strategy that builds killer teams • What PMM leaders are fighting for that ICs never see • The disagree-and-commit principle that changes everythingTimestamps 00:00 Introduction & Amanda's Weird LinkedIn Journey01:00 Guest Introduction: IC to VP in 2 Years02:00 The Big Question: Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?02:30 "We Are More Than Marketers" - The Non-Conformist Theory04:00 What Makes a Non-Conformist PMM05:00 Rebels Who Pull Invisible Threads06:00 The Troll Under the Bridge Analogy07:00 Slow Down to Speed Up Philosophy09:00 Building PMM Foundations Without Crumbling11:00 Career Trajectory: The Non-Linear Path13:00 From Content to Demand Gen to PMM15:00 Why Product Marketing Was "The Most Fun"17:00 Current Role at Enable & Team Building19:00 Ultra Marathons & Mental Fitness21:00 The Painting Practice & Creative Outlets23:00 Rapid Fire Round Begins24:00 Worst Marketing Advice Ever Received26:00 Budget Allocation Debates28:00 The AI Mad Lib Problem30:00 Customer Advisory Boards Discussion32:00 PMM Career Paths & Fractional Trends34:00 The PMM to CMO Pipeline37:00 Product-Led Growth Companies as PMM Paradise39:00Disagree and Commit PrincipleHosted on Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Product marketing—marketing's favorite misunderstood stepchild or just expensive project management in disguise? Pranav Piyush (ex-Dropbox, ex-Bill, founder of Paramark) joins the crew to drop some inconvenient truths: most PMMs are stuck doing thankless work because nobody knows who actually runs the business. We're talking hypothesis-driven thinking, why talking to customers isn't optional, the statistical traps that make your research garbage, and why that rebrand probably won't save your pipeline. Also:The "HIPPO problem" destroying 90% of PMM effectivenessThe three data pitfalls that make your research worthless (cherry-picking is just the start)Why statistics courses should be mandatory for every marketerThe hypothesis-based approach that turns opinions into provable strategiesWhy measuring creative team productivity is a complete waste of timeThe incrementality blind spot: 99% of B2B orgs have no clue about their marketing ROIActivity metrics you should ignore vs. the engagement signals that actually matterIf you've ever felt like a glorified PowerPoint factory or wondered why your data never wins arguments, this episode will either validate your existence or make you question everything. Either way, you'll finally understand why the role exists in the first place.TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Introduction and Host Intros00:37 Introducing the Guest: Pranav Piyush00:46 Pranav's Background and Career Highlights01:25 Personal Anecdotes and Adventures02:40 Origins of the Podcast03:37 The Role of Product Marketers07:04 Challenges in Product Marketing17:40 The Importance of Data in Marketing24:00 Understanding Positioning and Messaging24:45 Qualitative vs Quantitative Research in Messaging25:04 The Role of Customer Research30:13 Activity Metrics: What Really Matters?34:29 Creative Work and Measurement37:31 The Importance of Incrementality43:58 Rebrands: Are They Worth It?47:11 Final Thoughts and Podcast PromotionSNOW NOTES:Pranav's LinkedIn ParamarkElena VernaStatistical significanceHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

On this episode of Embracing Erosion, Devon sits down with Jason Oakley. Jason is an experienced product marketer, coach, and entrepreneur, recently recognized as a top 100 product marketing influencer. He's the founder of Productive PMM, where he provides tools, coaching, and inspiration to help founding and solo PMMs deliver meaningful impact without burning out. He's also the cofounder of DemoDash, an interactive demo agency focused exclusively on Navattic customers, helping SaaS companies turn product demos into one of their most effective go-to-market assets.In their conversation, they discussed what Jason is hearing from PMMs navigating leaner teams and tighter budgets, how interactive demos are evolving as a GTM advantage, the systems and frameworks he's built through Productive PMM to help solo PMMs scale without burning out, and much more. Enjoy the conversation!

Season five kicks off with the announcement nobody asked for but everyone needed: We're Not Marketers is throwing an event, and it's nothing like the stale hotel ballroom marathons you're used to. Eric, Zach, and Gab break down why they're risking it all to create a three-day PMM experience that's equal parts tactical workshop, adventure vacation, and therapy session for product marketers who are tired of pretending B2B has to be boring. Get the juicy details on how they infiltrated Drive 2025, why they're limiting attendance to 150 people, and what happens when three solopreneurs decide confidence beats certainty. → Why three solopreneurs with zero event planning experience think they can beat PMA→ The real reason behind the fake mustaches at Drive (hint: it's not just for laughs)→ The "sitting makes you stupid" theory: Why ballroom marathons kill creativity→ How wearing a Halloween costume to a B2B event makes you more yourself, not less→ Most PMMs need a recharge and haven't had one in yearsIf you've ever wondered why PMM events feel like eating cardboard while someone reads you PowerPoint slides, this episode will either inspire you or make you think we've completely lost it.Timestamped00:00 - Season 5 Intro: Two Years of We're Not Marketers 02:15 - The Big Announcement: We're Throwing an Event 04:30 - Why PMM Events Are Broken (And Why We're Fixing Them) 08:45 - The Mustache Origin Story: From Highline to Drive 12:20 - Behind the Scenes: How We Decided to Commit to the Bit 15:20 - Analysis Paralysis vs. Bold Action: Our Decision-Making Process 18:50 - The 150-Person Formula: In-House, Fractional, and CMOs 22:15 - Why Events Should Feel Like Vacations, Not Work 26:40 - The Fractional PMM Problem: Gatekeeping in B2B Events 29:30 - What Makes a Great Event: Lessons from Highline and Drive 32:10 - The Ryan Holiday Moment That Validated Everything 35:45 - Our Event Philosophy: Shipping Over Theory 38:20 - Why We're Taking the Risk (Even If It Fails) 42:00 - What Attendees Are Asking For: Tactical, Fun, and RealSHOW NOTES:Courage Is Calling" by Ryan HolidayHighline ConferenceDrive ConferenceWe're Not Marketers Event WaitlistHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

No episódio desta semana, analisamos a nova edição do Panorama do Mercado de Produto 2025 da PM3.

On this episode of Embracing Erosion, Devon sits down with Ryan Walker. Ryan is a global marketing, product, and growth executive with over 15 years of experience scaling iconic B2B and B2C platforms—from Meta and TikTok to Reddit and now Boeing.In their conversation, they discussed aligning teams at scale, preparing for IPOs, navigating regulatory pressure, why alignment, velocity and transparent are key to transformation, and what PMMs need to unlearn to lead in the next decade. Enjoy the conversation!

#278 Content | In this episode, Dave brings together five B2B marketers who aren't just talking about AI, they're actually using it to change how their teams work. Each finalist from the Exit Five x Walnut AI Sessions takes the (virtual) stage to demo their workflow, share results, and answer questions from the judges.Here's what you'll hear:Jillian Hoefer's “content concierge” GPT trained on proprietary research to surface stats, quotes, and data for blogs, sales decks, and thought leadershipJake Heap's workflow using Meshy + VEO 3 to turn a simple mascot into animated 3D brand characters in minutesJessica Lytle's no-code ROI calculator built in Lovable that sales reps now run live on calls to build business casesUgi Djuric's high-volume content engine that scrapes industry news and sales call transcripts, then uses AI to summarize, generate content ideas, and even score leadsAnton Ruis' AI-powered buyer brief builder that pulls real-time economic data and tailors sales messaging to specific personasIt's part workshop, part competition, and packed with creative, tactical ways to put AI to work in B2B marketing today.Timestamps(00:00) - – Dave kicks off in a tux (02:44) - – Record-breaking registrations (03:22) - – Meet the judges: Benny & Jess (08:10) - – Jillian's “victim of repurposing” intro (08:50) - – Building a “content concierge” GPT from research data (10:14) - – Injecting stats + quotes into blogs and decks (14:10) - – How one report fueled 9+ months of content (19:10) - – Jake on bringing AI into marketing ops (20:33) - – Turning a mascot into a 3D character with Meshy (21:18) - – Animating it in VEO 3 (no designer needed) (24:33) - – Cutting animation time from weeks to minutes (30:32) - – Jessica builds a no-code ROI calculator in Lovable (33:41) - – AEs use it live on sales calls (34:25) - – Adding benchmarks + transparency to ROI math (41:43) - – Ugi's AI engine scrapes + summarizes industry news (44:00) - – Training custom GPTs on expert insights (50:40) - – Anton's real-time buyer briefs from economic data (53:15) - – Tailoring briefs for CROs, enablement, PMMs (56:59) - – Judges crown the winning use case + Dave's wrap-up Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***This episode of the Exit Five podcast is brought to you by Qualified.AI is the hottest topic in marketing right now. And one thing we hear a lot of you marketers talking about is how you can use AI Agents to help run your marketing machine.That's where Qualifed comes in with Piper, their AI SDR agent.Piper is the #1 AI SDR Agent on the market according to G2, and hundreds of companies like Box, Asana, and Brex, have hired Piper to autonomously grow inbound pipeline. How good does that sound?Qualified customers are seeing a massive business impact with Piper: a 3X increase in meetings booked and a 2X increase in pipeline.The Agentic Marketing era has arrived. And if you're a B2B marketing leader looking to scale pipeline generation, Piper the #1 AI SDR Agent is here to help.Hire Piper, the #1 AI SDR Agent, and grow your pipeline today.You can learn more at qualified.com/exit5

Episode Summary: Rebecca Shaddix joins Erin and Ken to blow up tired go-to-market tropes and rewrite what it means to lead with product marketing in an AI-native era. She shares the frameworks behind “acceptable mistakes,” why critical thinking is the superpower in a world of noisy AI outputs, and how to avoid chasing 80 experiments that go nowhere. If you're a CMO, PMM, or founder trying to separate signal from AI hype, this is your roadmap. About Our Guest: Rebecca Shaddix is the Head of Product & Lifecycle Marketing at Garner Health, Forbes contributor, and GTM strategy pioneer. She's built GTM engines for high-growth SaaS and EdTech, founded Strategica, and is known for making complex data actionable (without losing trust or speed). Her frameworks are shaping the new AI playbook for marketers who want repeatable results, not just activity. 00:59 Ken's AI Sandwich Framework 04:26 Erin's AI-Powered Book Series 07:10 Interview with Rebecca Shaddix 08:24 Rebecca on Acceptable Mistakes in AI Implementation 17:44 AI's Impact on Product Marketing 23:30 Balancing AI Training and Deep Research 28:41 AI Tools and Budget Constraints 30:32 Navigating the Rapid Evolution of AI in Business 30:59 Balancing Risk and Reward in AI Tool Selection 32:44 Effective Team Collaboration and AI Integration 37:08 Building Trust in AI Insights 45:15 The Future of Product Marketing 54:13 Lightning Round and Final Thoughts   Quote of the Episode: “Trust in AI starts with transparency and ends with collaboration. Bring your teams in early, and let them own the process.” – Rebecca Shaddix

#260 Product Marketing | Dave is joined by Matt De Vincentis, VP of Product Marketing at Atlassian. With a background that spans engineering, product marketing, and leadership at companies like VMware and Palo Alto Networks, Matt shares how Atlassian structures its product marketing team, prioritizes work, and stays tied to business outcomes, even at massive scale.Dave and Matt cover:How Atlassian connects product marketing to revenue and pipeline (and why PMMs need to “own the outcome”)How to build high-trust, high-impact marketing teams, drawing on lessons from firefighting and enterprise leadershipThe async work philosophy Atlassian uses to eliminate unnecessary meetings and increase productivity across a global teamWhether you lead a team or want a seat at the table, this episode breaks down how to structure, scale, and lead product marketing the Atlassian way.Timestamps(00:00) - – Intro (03:04) - – Matt's path from engineer to Atlassian VP (06:19) - – Why technical backgrounds can be both a strength and a curse in PMM (10:04) - – What product marketing looks like at a $5B company (11:04) - – “Own the outcome, not the task”: tying PMM to revenue (13:24) - – Why product marketers should care about pipeline (even if they don't own it) (14:49) - – How brand and creative marketers can still align to business outcomes (17:19) - – Measuring inputs vs. outcomes (and how to stay focused on the right one) (18:04) - – How Matt applies firefighting lessons to leading marketing teams (19:44) - – Triaging “fire drills” and protecting your team's focus (21:34) - – How to prioritize ruthlessly (and what real prioritization means) (24:04) - – From IC to VP: how your mindset and responsibilities shift (28:35) - – Why leaders should double down on strengths—not fix weaknesses (30:50) - – How self-assurance became Matt's superpower as a leader (33:50) - – The StrengthsFinder approach Matt uses with his team (35:50) - – The value of executive coaching for marketing leaders (37:20) - – The goal: build the best marketing team anyone's worked on (38:50) - – Why trust and 10x thinking unlock great marketing work (41:20) - – Where product marketing sits inside Atlassian's org (42:50) - – How Atlassian uses Loom and async work to eliminate unnecessary meetings (45:20) - – What qualifies as a real meeting at Atlassian (46:50) - – Why async work helps global teams move faster (49:50) - – How Atlassian balances async with intentional in-person gatherings (51:50) - – Why trust changes how Slack and email are interpreted (52:35) - – How Atlassian thinks about AI's role in marketing (54:50) - – Why it's hard to stand out in an “AI-washed” market (56:05) - – Matt's mission: help make work suck less (57:20) - – Final thoughts and wrap-up Send guest pitches and ideas to hi@exitfive.comJoin the Exit Five Newsletter here: https://www.exitfive.com/newsletterCheck out the Exit Five job board: https://jobs.exitfive.com/Become an Exit Five member: https://community.exitfive.com/checkout/exit-five-membership***Today's episode is brought to you by Zuddl.We're halfway through 2025, and one thing's clear: events continue to be one of the highest performing marketing channels. Niche meetups, conferences, curated dinners, networking - you name it. Everyone's leaning in.Events are a core part of our playbook this year at Exit Five. So far, we've hosted two virtual sessions each month, one large virtual event, one in-person meetup, and we're deep in the weeds planning our Drive conference coming back to Vermont this September.Zuddl helps us run a smarter event strategy - from driving registrations, managing invites, automating comms, reminders, analytics, tracking. Their Salesforce integration also makes it simple to report on pipeline and revenue from events without pulling in ops.On top of that, the differentiator with Zuddl is how their team is insanely good at supporting us. They always go above and beyond for us - and that's how we've been able to keep the momentum going with 12+ events already this year, with plenty more to come.If events are part of your marketing strategy, you need to look at Zuddl to see how companies like Zillow, CrowdStrike, and Iterable are using the top event platform for Business events in 2025. Head over to zuddl.com/exitfive to learn more. 

What happens when a product marketer leaves the in-house grind to start her own consultancy? According to Alex Virden, it changed how she saw product marketing entirely.In this episode, Virdical founder shares why PMMs aren't traditional marketers, how consulting rewires your thinking, and what startup leaders really need when they ask for help. From messy handoffs to misaligned messaging, Alex explains the recurring pain points that surface in the go-to-market function and how external voices can reset the entire narrative.She also share knowledge on:The power dynamics that make consultants more effective than internal PMMsWhy hourly billing models can backfire (and what to do instead)How to spot when your org needs a third-party voice to fix GTM strategyTactics for commanding a room with CEOs (even if you're the outsider)How to avoid getting pulled into the basement making decks and one-pagersPractical advice for PMMs transitioning into consulting or freelance workIf you've tried to run a strategic PMM project while dodging CEO opinions and internal politics, this episode is a must-listen. Whether you're in-house and underwater or eyeing the consultant leap, Alex Virden brings receipts, real talk, and a clear lens on what modern product marketing really looks like when done right

If you've ever felt a gap between brand and product marketing, we've had an expert who's been in both roles and is telling us that there's not that different.Brand and product marketing expert Jon Itkin joins We're Not Marketers to dismantle outdated perceptions of marketing. The traditional divide between product marketing and brand marketing is harmful — and that truly impactful PMMs must think and act like "whole hundred marketers." From mastering macro market dynamics to understanding why memorability beats micro-optimization, John shares a treasure trove of insights to help PMMs step into strategic leadership. We're covering:The 4 Cs framework: Capabilities, Credibility, Convenience, and CostThe danger of treating marketing like "arts and crafts" (and how to stop)Why being memorable is the true competitive advantage in crowded marketsHow convenience beats capabilities more often than you'd thinkHow category leaders stay leaders (hint: it's not features)Expect hard truths, practical frameworks, and some very strong opinions about why marketing fundamentals still matter more than ever.

What makes someone leave a high-paying product marketing role just before a massive acquisition?In this episode, I sit down with Jason Oakley—founder of Productive PMM and co-founder of Demo Dash—to unpack the bold career decisions that shaped his journey in tech. From leading product marketing at a hypergrowth startup to becoming a full-time creator and consultant, Jason shares the systems, mindset shifts, and lessons that helped him bet on himself.We talk about what it really takes to succeed in product marketing today—and why your biggest edge might come from making uncomfortable moves.If you're a product marketer, startup operator, or aspiring solopreneur, this one's for you.In this conversation, you'll learn:Why Jason left a senior product marketing role before a $2B exitHow he used LinkedIn to overcome imposter syndrome and grow his personal brandThe most common blind spots for PMMs moving into leadershipHow he turned his expertise into a scalable businessThings to listen for:(00:00) Intro(08:54) Jason's early life and entrepreneurial spirit(09:55) Thank you to our sponsors, Navattic & Appcues(12:40) Making hard career decisions as a product marketer(22:10) Real talk for young professionals in tech(28:24) Becoming a product marketing thought leader(30:23) Overcoming imposter syndrome on LinkedIn(32:39) Launching digital products as a PMM(38:29) Why practice beats perfection(43:39) Lessons from managing a team(55:13) Work-life balance and founder mindsetThis episode is presented by:Navattic: Interactive Product Demo Software - https://navattic.com/value Appcues: User Engagement for SaaS - https://appcues.com/value Resources:Connect with Jason:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oakleyjason/ Productive PMM official website: https://www.productivepmm.com PMM Files Newsletter: https://productivepmm.com/newsletter Connect with Andrew:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewcapland/ Substack: https://media.deliveringvalue.coHire Andrew as your coach: https://deliveringvalue.co/coaching

Juxtaposing real grass roots efforts to "Get Out the Vote" with Political Media Manipulation Strategies as the MS GOP uses unfounded claims of voter fraud as an attempt to sway the Gulfport Mayoral race and an exclusive interview with Tracee Fairley from Project 35 on efforts to motivate a younger electorate. 

Is product marketing really marketing? Or is it something more (or less)? In this deep-dive episode, Humans of MarTech co-founder Phil Gamache joins the crew to unpack what it truly means to be a marketer today—and why product marketing often feels like a misunderstood offshoot of the craft. From the forgotten “P” in the marketing mix to the role of AI in shaping how teams work together, this episode balances reflection, tactical insight, and Phil's unmistakable chill candor. Learn how product marketers can better collaborate with marketing ops, why summarizing research matters more than polishing the perfect message, and how GenAI will shift execution forever.The ultimate marketer and podcast legend educate us on:Why most customer research never gets shared—and how to fix itThe AI use case every PMM should be doing today (and probably isn't)“You can never give an LLM too much context”—unless you doPhil's rule of thumb: brief AI like you brief your analystThe PMM x Martech collab that unlocks ICP clarityThis one's a must-listen for any PMM trying to earn cross-functional credibility and not just ship decks no one reads.If you've ever felt like the ‘silent' in the marketing department, this episode will help you find your voice and your seat at the table.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Roundtable01:05 Introducing the Special Guest: Phil Gamache01:55 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?05:50 Phil's Experience with the Four P's of Marketing09:22 Challenges and Roles in Marketing Ops12:45 The Future of AI in Marketing24:30 The Current State of AI25:10 Leveraging AI for Customer Research29:06 Practical Tips for Summarizing Customer Interviews31:58 The Importance of Context in AI Prompts40:02 Collaborating with Marketing Ops for Better Data43:23 Exploring AI Tools: MidJourney vs. DALL-E45:30 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Phil's LinkedInHumans of Martech PodcastHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is working fractional that secret weapon for in-house PMMs? In this no-holds-barred episode, Eric, Zach, and Gab debate whether product marketers with fractional experience have an edge when they return in-house. We dive into the gritty reality of juggling multiple clients, the mental health rollercoaster of working solo, and why most people don't understand what it truly takes to do it. Tune in for honest insights, soul-crushing reality checks, and maybe a few Mexican oranges along the way.Here's what to expect when listening...The real reason in-house PMMs with fractional experience have better boundaries with their bossesWhy fractional PMMs develop stronger time management and communication skills than their in-house peersThe surprising statistic about entrepreneurship and mental health (entrepreneurs are 2x more likely to face depression)How building a side hustle while employed gave Zach a "running start" when he got laid offWhy hedging your bets with fractional work is smart even if you love your in-house jobThe brutal reality check: "I don't want to glorify the work...I was up at 4:30 AM doing work just to get ahead"When to know if fractional work is right for you (and who should absolutely avoid it)The truth about those LinkedIn success stories claiming "$20K/month after just 3 months"Time Stamps00:00 Introduction and Host Banter01:00 Episode Topic: Are in-house PMMs more effective with fractional experience?02:30 Defining Fractional PMM Work03:45 The Difference Between Client Relationships vs. Boss Relationships05:58 The Truth About Company "Family" Culture07:15 Advantages of Fractional Work (Scope Control, Premium Pay)08:20 Challenges of Pricing Fractional Services09:05 The Feast or Famine Reality of Fractional Work10:45 Building a Side Hustle While Working In-House12:02 Hedging Your Bets in an Uncertain Economy14:00 Exploring Why People Stay In-House vs. Going Fractional15:45 Finding Work You Actually Look Forward To18:12 Key Skills Developed Through Fractional Work21:00 The Mental Health Challenges of Solo Entrepreneurship22:15 Book Recommendation: "The Dip" by Seth Godin23:05 The Statistic on Entrepreneurship and Mental Health RisksHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Is your message testing just throwing random ingredients into a pot and hoping it tastes good? In this no-holds-barred episode, the boys tackle the chaos of message testing and why most PMMs are doing it wrong. From useless A/B tests with tiny sample sizes to executives demanding "just one more tweak," we dive into what actually works. Tune in for laughs, practical frameworks, and why your mom's cooking method isn't a valid messaging strategy. We're covering:Only 30% of product marketers have ever actually tested a message (and most of them did it wrong)Why A/B testing is the "let's not commit" cop-out of marketing teamsThe one-variable rule: why testing multiple things at once is destroying your resultsThe critical difference between message testing and A/B testing that most marketers missHow to build a message testing framework that gets leadership buy-in immediatelyIf you've ever sat through a meeting where someone suggested "Let's A/B test it" for a campaign going to 150 people, this episode will either validate your frustration or completely change how you work. Either way, your next messaging project just got a whole lot more effective.Timestamps01:39 Question: How Many PMMs Actually Test Messages?02:31 Why A/B Testing Is Often the Wrong Approach04:00 Statistical Significance and Sample Size Problems05:58 Testing Text vs. Testing Visuals06:05 Messaging as Strategy vs. Tactical Implementation  09:01 Differentiating Message Testing from A/B Testing12:15 The Commitment Problem in Marketing Decision-Making16:16 How Trade Shows Can Validate Positioning and Messaging19:45 Message Testing to Define Product Uniqueness22:00 Eric's Process Misstep: Jumping to Experimentation Too Soon27:45 The Scientific Method in Message Testing29:01 The Gumbo Analogy: Why Most Marketing Isn't Replicable34:15 Isolating Variables in Message Testing35:36 Building a Strong Hypothesis Framework38:25 Gab's Message Testing Resources (Message Market Fit)41:30 The ROI of Message Testing and Business Consequences44:35 Final Thoughts and Key TakeawaysShow notes:Victoria Rudi's Messaging FrameworksMessage Market Fit - Gab's resource for message testing frameworks and templates.Freckle.io - The Clay alternative talked in the example Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Neste episódio do Product Guru's, mergulhamos no universo do PMM (Product Marketing Manager) e sua relação com o PM (Product Manager). Afinal, PMMs estão substituindo PMs? Como essa visão voltada ao mercado influencia o roadmap dos produtos?Nossa convidada especial, Analuisa Ferreira, compartilha sua experiência com product marketing e revela como a disciplina está crescendo nas empresas. Discutimos a evolução do Product Market Fit, os desafios de PMMs no mercado e como grandes empresas, como o Vakinha, usam essa estratégia para impactar milhões./// Os melhores profissionais estão sempre um passo à frente. Seja PM3!Março é o mês de Aniversário da PM3, pensando nisso, eles prepararam várias surpresas incríveis, para comemorar no melhor estilo. Então, anota aí: quer garantir uma oferta especial para virar aluno PM3 e acelerar sua carreira? No próximo episódio do Product Guru's, nós vamos te contar como ter acesso a essa oferta! Fica ligado, hein?!https://go.pm3.com.br/Lista-Vip-PG/// Onde encontrar os convidados:Analuisa Ferreira | Senior Product Marketing Manager @ Vakinha/// Conteúdos complementares:Episódio com a April Dunford + Emma assista aqui.Site April Dunford, como posicionar de maneira prática: https://www.aprildunford.com/Livro Obviously Awesome: https://amzn.to/41Qud9FEmma stratton, referência em messaging: https://punchy.co/O livro da Emma Stratton: Make it punchy - https://amzn.to/4iQJdez/// Nesse episódio abordamos:• O PMM foca na estratégia de mercado, enquanto o PM prioriza a execução do produto.• A disciplina de marketing de produto está crescendo, mas ainda é pouco compreendida.• Empresas de alto crescimento tendem a adotar um olhar mais estratégico do PMM.• O mercado exige que PMs também saibam executar estratégias de Go-To-Market.• PMMs ajudam a garantir que produtos não fiquem obsoletos com o tempo.• A Vakinha usou estratégias de PMM para criar um sistema transparente de doações.• Pequenas mudanças, como renomear uma funcionalidade, podem impactar a adoção do usuário.• Grandes empresas podem mudar sua estrutura para adotar mais PMMs, mas de forma gradual.• O storytelling e o posicionamento são fundamentais para o sucesso de um produto.• O futuro do PMM está na capacidade de integrar dados, mercado e produto./// Capítulos:00:00 PMM vs. PM no mercado00:49 Analu e sua trajetória02:06 O papel do PMM e a visão de mercado05:28 Diferenças entre PMM e PM: Realidade ou só nomenclatura?12:32 Impacto da estrutura de produto nas empresas17:46 Como a Vakinha utiliza PMM para crescimento23:56 O impacto do PMM na tragédia do RS e doações32:00 O processo de Discovery e validação de hipóteses35:25 Como a visão de mercado influencia o roadmap39:22 Exemplo real: Transparência e segurança na Vakinha45:08 O futuro do PMM: Demanda do mercado e tendências51:06 Apple e o poder do storytelling em produto55:58 Considerações finais e encerramento

We have a rule here: Never get the same guest twice. Well, we've just broken it now because we're getting Michele Nieberding for the 2nd time!The Director of Product Marketing at Metarouter, the Martech queen and two-time Top 100 PMM, returns to challenge one of the biggest assumptions about product marketers. We dive into the blurred lines between PMM, marketing, and product teams, why some org structures set PMMs up for failure, and how AI is reshaping the role. Plus, Michele drops tactical insights on working with sales, disqualifying bad leads, and scaling impact as a solo PMM. We've talked about: ✅ The launch hamster wheel—why PMMs get stuck in product launches & how to escape it✅ The red flags: If your PMM team reports to the CRO, run!

Product marketers with a sales background often feel like they have a superpower. The opposite is even truer.Kyle Coleman, CMO at Copy.ai, says yes—and he's got the career journey to back it up. From SDR to marketing exec, Kyle breaks down why sales and marketing are inseparable, how storytelling (not the best product) wins markets, and why staying close to revenue is the key to career growth. Plus, he shares how he personally closed $350K in outbound sales while leading marketing.✅ Why storytelling—not features—wins markets (just ask Salesforce).✅ The biggest mistake most product marketers make when trying to prove their impact.✅ Sales and marketing: two sides of the same coin or completely different beasts?✅ Why the best PMMs own the revenue conversation.✅ The "ivory tower" trap that kills product marketing impact.✅ Kyle's secret to getting buy-in from execs for category creation (hint: 75+ interviews).✅ A real-life sales deck fail—and how Kyle fixed it by actually selling.✅ The #1 piece of career advice for product marketers who want to be CMOs.If you're a product marketer aiming for the CMO seat, this episode is your playbook.

We're kicking off season 4 with Chanel Chambers, VP of Marketing at Lakeside Software. As a product marketing leader and past music teacher, she's joining us to break down the role of product marketing, why it's central to a business's success, and how PMMs can increase their influence. From jazz improvisation to AI-driven business strategies, Chanel shares fresh insights on how product marketers can start treating their role with a business holistic approach and how to create credibility internally AND externally. We're talked about:

Product marketing and content marketing—are they allies, or just frenemies in disguise? In this episode, Devin Reed (ex-Gong, ex-Clari, and host of Read Between the Lines) joins the crew to dish out his hot takes on the tension between PMMs and content marketers, why most messaging decks collect dust, and the real secret to making content that resonates. If you've ever questioned whether product marketing is actually marketing (or just internal storytelling), this one's for you.What You'll Learn in This Episode:→ The biggest mistake product marketers make when handing messaging to content teams→ Why most positioning and messaging decks never make it into real-world content→ The secret to testing messaging before betting big on a full campaign→ How to bridge the gap between internal messaging and market-facing storytelling→ The power of creative freedom—why it's the ultimate flex in B2B marketing→ The “two-sentence test” for making sure your messaging actually lands→ When it's too candid—how to balance bold positioning with market perception→ How to write messaging that actually reflects what customers sayListen now to hear Devin unfiltered take on product marketing, messaging mistakes, and how to win the content game.Timestamps:00:00 Introduction and Host Welcome02:00 Introducing the Special Guest: Devin Reed04:13 Devin Reed's Insights on Product Marketing06:00 The Relationship Between Content and Product Marketing14:51 Testing and Differentiating Marketing Strategies23:57 Creative Freedom in B2B Marketing26:23 Writing for Yourself: A Sales Rep's Perspective26:57 Creating Relatable and Memorable Content28:12 The Power of Sales Team Collaboration28:55 The Heat Check: Testing Content Ideas29:35 Maniacal Focus on Quality Content29:59 The Importance of Clear and Concise Messaging31:40 Understanding Your Audience's Language34:37 Navigating Internal Approval Processes36:32 Leveraging Customer Insights for Copywriting43:14 The Creative Process: From Inspiration to Execution48:34 Final Thoughts and Upcoming ProjectsShow Notes:The Reeder WebsiteReed between the lines podcastDevin's LinkedIn Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

It's easy to get overly focused on "doing your job" as a product manager. Unfortunately, we risk taking too narrow of a view of what our job actually is. When it comes to working with PMMs (product marketing managers), it's no different. And it's about time we start treating them like partners rather than someone we throw releases over the wall to and expect them to make our products sell. If you're looking to get into product management and want the training and experience you need to get there, join us at Path2Product where we bridge the gap in product management experience for aspiring product managers.

The more knowledge you have on product marketing, the better you can be an expert and have more impact on your job. Today, we're having Peter Kortvel, a senior product marketer at Scandit and the creator of the product marketing newsletter (with 1700+ subscribers).Peter has worked as a video consultant, in startups, cofounded an IoT startup and today shows us what great product marketing should look like.He has 13+ years of experience as a marketer and believes in getting things done (we appreciate it too!). In this episode, we're covering:The importance of understanding your target audienceWhy research can help you communicate your product valueThe difference between storytelling and the formatChallenges of PMMs and if they are marketersCommon startup mistakes in messagingThe best time to drink beerSo grab a beer with us and let's chat product marketing

Product Marketing Managers, let's face it: you're juggling a million tasks, from crafting compelling narratives to deciphering market trends, all while trying to stay ahead in an ever-evolving digital landscape. It's like trying to solve a Rubik's Cube while riding a unicycle - challenging, to say the least. But what if there was a way to not just keep up, but to leap ahead? Enter the game-changing world of AI, a tool that's revolutionizing the PMM playbook faster than you can say "go-to-market strategy." From ideation to copywriting, from research to those daily tasks that seem to multiply endlessly, AI is transforming how PMMs work. But how exactly are savvy professionals leveraging this technology to supercharge their efforts? That's exactly what we're about to unpack. To guide us through this AI-powered marketing revolution, we have a true expert in the field joining us today. I'm thrilled to welcome Gabe Wahhab to our show. Gabe is a growth-minded entrepreneur turned intrapreneur, with an impressive background in product marketing. He's worked with industry giants like HubSpot, where he played a key role in developing and implementing AI-driven marketing strategies. Gabe's unique blend of technical expertise and marketing acumen makes him the perfect guide to help us navigate the AI revolution in product marketing. AI in Marketing: Unpacked host Mike Allton asked Gabe Wahhab about: ✨ AI-Powered Efficiency: Artificial Intelligence significantly boosts PMM productivity by automating routine tasks and streamlining complex processes. ✨ Enhanced Creativity: AI tools augment human creativity in ideation and content creation, leading to more innovative marketing strategies. ✨ Data-Driven Insights: AI enables PMMs to gather and analyze vast amounts of data quickly, informing more strategic decision-making. Learn more about Gabe Wahhab Connect with Gabe Wahhab on LinkedIn Resources & Brands mentioned in this episode GabeWahhab.com HubSpot Agorapulse Finding Your Voice with AI – How to Craft a Brand Voice That Resonates with Mike Allton Custom GPTs for Marketers: Work Smarter, Not Harder with Mike Allton Gong Zoom 1Up How to Create 26 Pieces Of Content From A Facebook Live Content Remix Ruheene Jaura HeyLevi Product Marketing Alliance AI as Your Co-Host: Unleashing NotebookLM's Potential in Content Marketing with Mike Allton Christopher Penn AI Use Cases for Ideal Customer Profiles AI Consulting AI Bootcamp AI Marketing Primer: A Comprehensive Guide for Marketers Explore past episodes of the AI in Marketing: Unpacked podcast SHOW TRANSCRIPT & NOTES: https://www.thesocialmediahat.com/blog/elevating-product-marketing-the-game-changing-role-of-ai/ Start your AI journey with the AI Marketing Primer. Brought to you by The Social Media Hat - When One More Hat Is One Too Many. Interesting in sponsoring an episode? Learn more here. Powered by Magai - why choose one AI tool when you can have them all? And Descript, the magic wand for podcasters. Produced and Hosted by Mike Allton, AI Consultant at The Social Media Hat, where he's tirelessly helping businesses and marketers get ahead of the AI Revolution and apply advanced technologies to their roles. He's spent over a decade in digital marketing, bringing an unparalleled level of experience and excitement to the fore, whether he's delivering a presentation or leading a workshop. If you're interested in helping marketers with AI in an upcoming episode, reach out to Mike. Powered by the Marketing Podcast Network. Music by Tokay. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ever felt like a misfit in product marketing? You're not alone.In this episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Gab, Zach, and Eric dive deep into a hot topic for PMMs: discovering and honing your unique superpower to stand out in your role. Whether you're a product marketing veteran or new to the field, this conversation is packed with timeless advice, relatable stories, and strategies to help you identify your strengths and position yourself effectively.What's Inside This Episode?Self-discovery exercises for PMMs: From creating a “win list” to identifying transferable skills.Positioning yourself for success: Why knowing your competitive strength is key for landing the right roles.Experimentation is key: How trying different PMM functions (like pricing or messaging) can reveal your passions.Practical tools: Use energy-mapping techniques to uncover the tasks that fuel your motivation and career growth.Standing out in the crowd: Why specializing in a niche or showcasing your work is a game-changer.Confidence and mindset: The power of affirmations and self-belief in defining and owning your PMM identity.Who's This Episode For?Startup PMMs and fractional product marketers in B2B SaaS who're looking to differentiate themselves and feel unignorable in their roles.Key Takeaway:Your superpower isn't just a skill—it's how you position yourself and align your passions with business needs. Stop blending in and start standing out by owning your unique value.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Welcome01:01 Casual Banter and Golf Talk01:49 Understanding Your PMM Role02:26 Personal Experiences in Product Marketing03:33 Finding Your Competitive Strength04:48 Exploring Different Aspects of PMM06:57 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome07:51 Leveraging Your Superpower09:34 Practical Advice for PMMs14:29 The Importance of Confidence23:24 Final Thoughts and ConclusionSponsorZach Messler with Clarityrules.comHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

Making big marketing investments is a huge deal. But lucky for you, we're here to help.We're bringing you five keys to deliver on a big investment.And we're taking those lessons from the Olympics with the help of our special guest, VP of Marketing at AppsFlyer, Carolyn Bao.Together, we're talking about capitalizing on a cultural moment, committing to the long haul, ensuring activation is fully prepared, and so much more.About our guest, Carolyn BaoCarolyn Bao serves as the Vice President of Marketing for AppsFlyer, for the North America region, driving multi-channel efforts for the AppsFlyer mobile attribution and marketing analytics platform. She is an accomplished marketing executive with over 20 years of leadership experience at technology companies, specializing in software and SaaS marketing go-to-market strategy, data-driven business innovation and building high-performing marketing teams. She has deep domain knowledge of marketing tech stack and advertising technologies. Beyond her commercial role, she nurtures the entrepreneurial spirit as an MBA@Rice faculty member and a founding board member of Silicon Valley Leadership Community.Recognized with accolades such as LinkedIn's “Top Voices” and Product Marketing Alliance's “Top 100 PMMs,” Carolyn is celebrated for bringing products like Facebook Attribution to global markets, building high-performing marketing teams, and thought leadership in ‘women in leadership,' ‘marketing management' and ‘mobile growth strategies' through key speaking engagements for educational and professional events. Carolyn built her career portfolio through leadership roles at technology powerhouses including Moomoo, Facebook, Visa, and Yahoo.What B2B Companies Can Learn From The Olympics:Capitalize on a cultural moment. Pick something in the cultural zeitgeist to inspire your content. If it's already resonating and getting talked about, your content will too. Carolyn says, “I think leveraging critical cultural moments is one of the key growth drivers for any marketing department.” And she adds, “Really think through for your category, what is that cultural moment that we really want to capitalize on? In B2B marketing, not everybody competes in the Olympics. But we do compete in terms of how many in-person interactions we have with other practitioners. And that's where these in-person conferences immediately became popular again after we came out of COVID. So I think that's maybe something to really think about, is what is your Olympics equivalent.”Commit to the long haul. Big investments in content mean lots of planning for the pre-, during and post periods. How can you maximize the campaign and make the most of the big investment? Carolyn says, “Not a lot of companies have the ability to plan in massive time horizons, like every four years. A lot of marketing teams are probably working one to three quarters out for most of it. But I do think it's interesting to think of like, what are the big, massive bets that you can make that you might not be able to make every year that can show who you are as a brand.”Ensure activation is fully prepared. Don't sell yourself short by creating content without planning through distribution and activation. Make sure it's fully considered and you're making the most of that investment. Carolyn says, “To activate marketing around the Olympics at this scale is massive. This is sort of our Coachella for marketers, because we don't get to have this many dollars to spend for the majority of us. And meanwhile, even if we are with a huge brand, it is not often that we have this kind of massive celebration. So the scale is super important. The second piece that's very interesting is in terms of how to ensure marketing is done right. There is a great deal of discipline in running a smooth marketing operation, which I think everyone can still also relate to because no matter big or small, for our marketing campaigns to be successful, we have to also wear that operational hat. And I think there's a lot to be unpacked from studying how the Olympics have been done.”Commit to the production cost. Big ideas come with a cost. Follow through with the full potential of the project, including the price of it. But the good news is that marketers have become a lot more efficient. Carolyn says, “Savvy marketers are not doing marketing content production the same way as old time marketers. Because they create these stories, they run it on mobile marketing channels, they run with a very small dollar amount, and they already got data to tell them what stories resonate with who. It pulls their feedback loop a lot shorter.”Know your ICP. Ensure your content will land with its intended audience by truly knowing your ICP. This means understanding their values, what motivates them, and the value you can offer them. Carolyn says, “Deeply understand whom it is you're really trying to influence. Knowing your ICP and knowing what you want your ICP to think or do differently from your storytelling is critical.”Quotes*”With constraints, creativity really differentiates a good storyteller from a mid storyteller, leveraging the Gen Alpha language. The more you understand the limitations, the better it is you stay focused and think about within all of these constraints, what else could we do?”*“If you are building a B2B brand, really make sure that there is a founder side of the humanized story. So that it's not just this brand, but it's actually the why the company was founded and how the founders have built the company.”*” Let's ground our work back to marketing fundamentals. Our marketing fundamentals is storytelling and we really need to understand whom we're talking the story to, what we want them to think or do differently. This is the first. The second piece is, please do not be afraid of developing that left brain as a marketer because the tools to help us measure our work and tell us the feedback of how well our storytelling did are becoming a lot more available. If you don't know, search it up, use chat GPT, but really, really deeply understand marketing measurement and the data that is at your disposal to make you a better marketer. The third piece that's super critical is do not forget stakeholder management because with the village that supports us is what we can work on our day to day, the blocking and tackling, but also when the time is right, advocate for big activation like the Olympics and really make history. Have fun with it.”Time Stamps[0:55] Meet Carolyn Bao, VP of Marketing at AppsFlyer[2:54] B2B Marketing Lessons from the Olympics and AppsFlyer[4:14] Olympic Marketing Campaigns and Sponsorships[36:09] Human-Centric Storytelling in Marketing[42:28] Key TakeawaysLinksConnect with Carolyn on LinkedInLearn more about AppsFlyerAbout Remarkable!Remarkable! is created by the team at Caspian Studios, the premier B2B Podcast-as-a-Service company. Caspian creates both nonfiction and fiction series for B2B companies. If you want a fiction series check out our new offering - The Business Thriller - Hollywood style storytelling for B2B. Learn more at CaspianStudios.com. In today's episode, you heard from Ian Faison (CEO of Caspian Studios) and Meredith Gooderham (Senior Producer). Remarkable was produced this week by Meredith Gooderham, mixed by Scott Goodrich, and our theme song is “Solomon” by FALAK. Create something remarkable. Rise above the noise.

In this next episode of We're Not Marketers, hosts Zach, Gab, and Eric are joined by Rahim Kaba, Director and Research Analyst at Gartner, to dive into the evolving role of PMM in B2B SaaS. With over 20 years of experience in the field, Rahim shares data with perspective on the function and challenges that come with it today. Key highlights include:- The Core Identity of Product Marketers: Rahim argues that product marketers are unequivocally marketers, backed by data showing 81% of PMMs report directly to marketing teams.- Shifting Expectations and Responsibilities: Learn about the changing scope of product marketing, from content creation roles to strategic leaders in positioning and storytelling.- Strategic Insights on Launch Cadences: Rahim discusses the importance of aligning release cycles with customer adoption capabilities and how to avoid launch fatigue.- Must-Have PMM Skills: Emphasis on the significance of data literacy, with tips on upskilling and resources like the Data Literacy Project.- Build Internal Influence: Best practices to clarify PMM roles through charters and RACI models to strengthen cross-functional alignment.The conversation also touches on the growth of fractional product marketers, the implications of market trends, and advice on how PMMs can elevate their strategic influence internally.Whether you're a seasoned product marketer or just starting out, this episode is packed with practical tips, valuable research insights (umm Gartner, bro), and a clear roadmap to reinforce PMM's impact in any company. Tune in for a ‘deep-sea of research' dive of how PMMs can thrive in today's competitive landscape.Time Stamps 02:11 Rahim's Background and Role at Gartner03:15 Are Product Marketers Really Marketers?07:06 Challenges and Misunderstandings in Product Marketing09:51 The Evolution of Product Marketing14:56 Data Literacy in Product Marketing18:12 Impact of Layoffs on Product Marketing21:04 Rise of Fractional Product Marketers23:46 Specialization in Product Marketing25:28 The Appeal of Fractional Product Marketing27:06 Challenges and Strategies for PMMs28:49 Effective Product Launch Strategies33:22 Balancing Product and Marketing Priorities34:44 The Role of PMMs in Organizations38:06 Building a Product Marketing Charter44:16 Using Gartner InsightsWhere more to follow and connect with Rahim?Rahim Kaba LinkedIn Gartner Time to Value PodcastGartner for High Tech LinkedIn PageFree Gartner Webinar Recording: How Growth Organizations Source Critical PMM SkillsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The role of the PMM is evolving and requires us to always adapt and be knowledgeable on new tech and initiatives. It can make a difference between a product marketer who is valuable and stack influence vs. someone who's on the layoff list.Someone who keeps pushing the limit of practical product marketing and leveraging projects short-cuts to ship more is Jess Petrella, Senior Product Marketing Manager (PMM) at ZayZoon, and she has an amazing take on becoming an efficient PMM.We discussed how AI can enhance the PMMs' capacity to analyze data and analyze opportunities, the importance of proximity with product teams, and the skills necessary for PMMs to co-create product roadmaps. The episode provides practical advice for aspiring PMMs and reflects on how to navigate better the challenges of the profession, from someone who just built the function from scratch. We talk about:Use AI for quicker data synthesis and opportunity analysisBuild advocacy skills to align with other teamsStrengthen connections with product teamsCollaborate on roadmaps to grow your roleGain skills to impact product decisionsSimplify tasks with AI to increase outputDiscover how you can build more influence as a PMM with the help of AI! Timespan:01:04 Discussing Product Marketing and Launches02:16 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?03:15 The Evolution of Product Marketing05:21 Building Influence as a Product Marketer17:43 Leveraging AI in Product Marketing28:53 Conclusion and FarewellShow Notes:Jess LinkedInhttps://pmmops.com/Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

The worst thing about being a PMM is not having to launch a new product within 2 weeks, or drowning in sales decks. It's all sharing the same trauma that people don't understand product marketing. We've seen a lot of movement on LinkedIn about PMMs sharing horror stories. Michele Nieberding even did a talk about it at PMA Boston.And we were lucky enough to have her sharing them on the pod, just in time for Halloween

Dealing with the chaos of being a PMM while trying to balance the rest of your life? You're not alone.In this candid episode of We're Not Marketers, Zach, Eric, and Gab dive into the realities of managing life as a Product Marketing Manager, whether you're in-house or fractional. From overwhelming work expectations to the struggle of balancing personal life, the team discusses how to protect your mental health while handling an always-on work culture. They share personal stories, tips like setting boundaries, removing work apps from phones, and practical advice on how to deal with burnout. If you're feeling the strain of managing your career, relationships, and self-care, this episode is a must-listen.Key takeaways include:Strategies to create separation between work and personal time (e.g., daily rituals, setting boundaries, Slack detox).Real-talk about burnout and why mental health shouldn't be just a “corporate benefit.”Practical tips on saying “no” to unrealistic requests and protecting your productivity.How fractional PMMs handle the pressure of multiple clients while in-house PMMs navigate endless internal demands.Tune in to hear the team's perspectives on how to reclaim balance and stay sane as a PMM.Show Notes00:00 Introduction and Sponsor Message01:02 The Challenges of Being a Product Marketer02:22 In-House vs. Fractional Product Marketing04:45 Balancing Work and Personal Life07:41 Setting Boundaries and Mental Health22:02 Productivity Tips and Techniques30:50 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this episode of We're Not Marketers, we sit down with the one and only Jeff Chase, Director of Brand and Product Marketing at Vitally.io, who drops a major hot take—product marketers aren't marketers (wait, what?!). But Jeff doesn't stop there. He believes PMMs are the future leaders of marketing, and he's got the experience and insights to back it up.Tune in as we dive into the evolving role of product marketers in B2B SaaS. From positioning and messaging to why PMMs have the potential to become CMOs, Jeff shares his journey and unique approach to blending product and brand marketing. We also tackle the age-old question: how can PMMs build better relationships with their brand teams?Whether you're a PMM ready to shake up your organization or just curious about where this role is headed, this convo is one you don't want to miss:PMMs vs. Marketers: Jeff's surprising take on why product marketers aren't really marketers.The Future CMO Pipeline: Why Jeff believes product marketers are primed to become the next generation of marketing leaders.The Art of Brand Storytelling: How product marketers can elevate their influence by mastering brand marketing collaboration.Hiring Hacks: Jeff's refreshing approach to recruitment, and why he believes hiring managers have a deeper responsibility than you think.Copycats Beware: How to stay a step ahead of competitors who love to swipe your messaging.Time Stamps 00:00 Introduction and Host Intros00:56 Special Guest Introduction: Jeff02:02 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?04:35 The Future of Product Marketing08:55 Building Cross-Functional Relationships10:48 The Role of Brand Marketing14:30 Hiring and Leadership Insights36:21 Dealing with Competitors43:46 Conclusion and Sign-OffShow NotesJeff Chase LinkedIn ProfileHosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

In this episode, Jarod Greene, CMO of Vivint, shares his journey from teaching middle school math to Gartner analyst to CMO today and offers actionable advice for PMMs struggling to gain recognition. Learn how to use research, co-create with sales, and communicate your value to drive impactful product marketing strategies in your workplace.When you let Jarod cook (#lethimcook) and you're gonna get…How teaching 7th graders prepared Jarod to lead B2B marketing strategy—and why it's still the hardest job he's ever done.The “magician” role of product marketers: Why being a chameleon is the ultimate superpower in your company (and how to harness it).Co-create with sales? Yes, please. The surprising reason your best sales reps should help write your next piece of content.Forget the committee—Jarod's trick to stop internal fights over messaging using the one thing no one can argue with: Data.“I had no idea what PMM was 10 years ago” – how Jarod went from confused to CMO and why it could be your career roadmap too.Content without context = chaos. Jarod's formula for why great content flops (and how to make it land every time).How to manage up, down, and sideways: Jarod's guide to becoming a leader before you even get the title.Time Stamps 00:00 We're Not Marketers (S3) - Jarod Greene01:00 Welcome to Season Three!01:46 Introducing Gerard Green03:01 From Teaching to Marketing05:15 The Role of Product Marketers07:15 Becoming a CMO18:03 Content with Context22:19 Co-Creating with Sales28:20 The Content Production Dilemma29:07 The Importance of Research in Marketing30:27 Primary vs. Secondary Research31:22 Leveraging Data for Decision Making39:43 Integrating AI in Marketing Strategies43:34 The Reality of Product Market Fit51:21 Upcoming Projects and EventsShow NotesJarod Greene LinkedIn ProfileUNXPCTD - Explore way AI is revolutionizing B2B Sales Hosted by Ausha. See ausha.co/privacy-policy for more information.

After 29 episodes, we're finally closing down our season 2 and we're taking this opportunity to circle back on why PMMs are misunderstood today in B2B SaaS. Being misunderstood isn't the problem, it's the apathy from colleagues and management regarding our roles and responsibilities. But we should be proud of being misfits because it's our uniqueness that can have a real impact on our jobs. All we need is more influence and less apathy. In this episode, we're going back on why we started the pod, how we're researching our market, find new episode topics, and a special way on how you can be on the pod for upcoming seasons: → The key takeaways from this season that every PMM should know → Our thoughts on the future of Product Marketing and what's on the horizon → What is the misfit madness and how can you be a special guest Tune in for the last time of season 2, and enjoy a monthly break of not hearing us talk about product marketing

Timestamps:01:36 PMM jobs and LinkedIn trends.03:00 Discussion about job application experiences and interview etiquette.05:00 Gab shares a story about a go-to-market assignment.08:00 Eric shares a story about interviewing with a competitor.12:00 Zach shares a story about a poor recruiting experience.16:00 Eric discusses a job that ended up being a bad fit.19:00 Discussion on hiring practices and candidate experiences.22:00 Importance of clear expectations and roles in hiring.24:00 The value of specific hiring criteria and trust in the hiring process.27:00 The benefits of private communities for job searching.30:00 Gab's experience with irrelevant job postings.33:00 Eric and Zach discuss the value of consulting and contracting as a career approach.36:00 Final thoughts on hiring practices and candidate experience.40:00 Additional anecdotes and reflections on job search experiences.45:00 Tips for navigating the PMM job market.50:00 Closing remarks and promotions for the newsletter and sponsors.52:00 Outro and end of episode. Show Notes: ⁠Inc Authority (LLC Formation)⁠⁠Exit Five Community⁠⁠Healthy Competition Community⁠

On this episode of Embracing Erosion, Devon chats with Amanda Groves, the VP of Product Marketing at Enable and one of Sharebird's Top 100 Product Marketing Leaders in 2022 and 2023. They break down the recent McKinsey report on product marketing and the latest data from the Product Marketing Alliance and discuss the tools the best product marketing teams need, how PMMs can and should use AI, how to become inspired and manage stress, and much more. Enjoy! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/devon-orourke/support

Meina Zhou is co-founder and CEO at Native. Native's mission is to improve the web3 user experience by solving fragmented liquidity and capital inefficiency in DeFi. They've built a unified, cross-chain liquidity layer combining on and off-chain liquidity sources using RFQ architecture. Why you should listen Native Labs is building Web3's Liquidity Layer, a protocol built to unify crypto's fragmented liquidity and radically enhance capital efficiency for PMMs. Via their RFQ System, Native's platform aggregates and connects order flow to PMMs for efficient off-chain pricing and on-chain execution. Since launching in April 2023, Native has onboarded over $100M in PMM liquidity and executed $2.2B+ in trading volume. Supporting links Native Andy on Twitter  Brave New Coin on Twitter Brave New Coin If you enjoyed the show please subscribe to the Crypto Conversation and give us a 5-star rating and a positive review in whatever podcast app you are using.  

Timestamps:02:47 Clara's Journey into Competitive Intelligence03:45 Are Product Marketers Actually Marketers?05:10 The Role of Competitive Intelligence in Revenue Generation08:01 The Importance of Being Selfless in Product Marketing10:33 Ideal Structure for Competitive Intelligence13:02 Misconceptions about Competitive Intelligence16:22 The Power of Competitive Intelligence Newsletters19:21 Building a Content Creation Team21:31 Investing in Competitive Intelligence25:23 The Evolution of Competitive Intelligence28:20 Handling Internal Requests and Prioritizing Competitors34:00 Special Projects and Where to Find Clara Show Notes:Clara LinkedIn Back Office to Boardroom SpotifyBack Office to Boardroom Apple Podcasts

Timestamps:01:02: Madison's journey to product marketing02:11: Transitioning from B2C to B2B02:58: Madison's current role and GTM strategy passion05:37: Are product marketers actually marketers?07:56: The disconnect between marketing and sales12:11: The role of product marketing in Go-to-market18:07: Building trust and influencing change in organizations22:47: The shift from B2B to PLG32:39: Where to find Madison and learn more about her workShow Notes:Madison LinkedInSaaS Secrets newsletter

Timestamps:01:17: Eric's layoff experience04:12: Zach's layoff experience10:24: The state of layoffs and product marketing in the US12:34: Taking the solopreneur road after being laid off14:00: The stress of the first 90 days as a PMM15:53: Specialist vs. generalist PMM18:27: How to position yourself as a PMM and be memorable22:31: How can you make your next job search a success Show Notes:Emma Stratton LinkedInProduct Marketing Alliance Salary ReportPersonal Positioning from Tamara GrominskyPractical Positioning Guide from Jess PetrellaTealHQ.com - CRM for job searchStillhiring.today - Job boardLavender AI - How to write great email to hiring managersAligned - Digital Salesroom to showcase your workHealthy Competition - CI CommunityPMMCamp - Product Marketing Community   

Timestamps:00:54: Are product marketers actually marketers?02:26: PMM would be terrible CMOs03:36: The ideal reporting structure for product marketers05:21: How to create good product marketing fundamentals09:00: Balancing strategy and execution15:44: How much important is copywriting for PMMs?18:53: Defining product marketing within your organization23:04: Category creation and Tamara's take24:41: Evaluating a product marketing role Show Notes:PMMCampReady for launch {March Cohort}:Tamara's LinkedIn 

Timestamps:00:55 - How PMMs should drive revenue05:46 - The focus on leads vs. the focus on revenue08:18 - How to make sure PMMs drive revenue10:45 - Why stakeholders don't understand the impact of messaging16:16 - Balancing strategic projects with tactics as a PMM22:46 - How to manage ongoing requests27:38 - How to enforce a research phase on strategic projects31:50 - How to help change priorities internally35:46 - What to do if you're doing more lead gen than revenue capture? Show notes:Olivine and Winter - B2B Messaging Course 

Jason LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oakleyjason/PMM Files Website: https://pmmfiles.com/The Productive PMM Website: https://productivepmm.com/Ready for Launch Course: https://maven.com/course-crew/readyforlaunch Timestamps:02:08 Are PMMs actually marketers?03:43 The biggest challenge of founding PMMs at early-stage startups05:38 How to prioritize to be a more productive PMM15:34 Why Jason started ProductivePMM18:56 Important skills of founding PMMs23:47 The fundamentals of product marketing and how they back up strategy and execution26:46 Most common pitfalls for product launches32:14 Where to find Jason and to get more information     

In this episode of Product Marketing Life, Mark Assini is joined by Justin Dorfman, Co-Founder & CEO of AssetMule. During their chat, Justin shares his thoughts on the difference between good and great enablement and what product marketers can do to build enablement into a function that delivers enough value to warrant its own dedicated resourcing.As a veteran in the tech and SaaS industry, Justin shares his comprehensive journey that spans from a foundational role in sales to an evolution into product marketing, culminating in his current entrepreneurial venture. Mark and Justin get to the core of effective sales enablement, emphasizing the importance of a strategic approach where ongoing dialogue between the enablement and sales teams leads to more dynamic and impactful support. By moving beyond the traditional reactive nature of enablement, organizations can develop sustainable, scalable strategies that truly support their sales teams in a rapidly evolving market.Not only that, Justin shares the inspiration and vision behind AssetMule, talking about addressing the common challenges in creating sales assets, especially for non-designers in product marketing roles.Key takeawaysWhy product marketers make strong entrepreneursThe ups and downs of self-launchingThe benefits of partnering with PMMs with diverse strengths and expertiseWhy many experienced product marketers still seek validationHow financial acuity is integral in driving impactAnd more insights throughout the episode!

Most PMMs feel sellers don't do what they tell 'em. Ears fume after listening to a random customer call recording because a sales rep decided not to stay on message. Sellers feel no different about PMMs.90% of sales and marketing professionals point to several disconnects across strategy, process, content, and culture. (LinkedIn, 2020). It's astounding! How can two professions, most focused on the customer persona, stand at odds like Will Ferrell & John C. Reilly in 2008's Stepbrothers?in this next episode, our co-hosts speak on the most common challenges between marketing and sales teams. How to navigate those dynamics to be a better friend to sellers that PMs can't get from any product roadmap. And, the co-hosts share tips you can use to foster instant karma points with your selling partners. Time Stamps:00:16 Introduction and Discussion on Marketing and Sales Silos01:11 The Challenges of Being a Solo Marketer in a Startup01:31 The Misunderstanding of Product Marketing's Role02:45 Sales Leaders' Perspective on Marketing and Sales Goals04:19 Strategies to Elevate Authority with Sales05:02 The Importance of Crafting Effective Messaging06:59 The Role of Product Marketing in Assisting Sales10:50 The Value of Repetition and Persistence in Marketing11:35 The Struggles and Solutions in Sales Enablement13:50 Conclusion: Breaking Down Silos and Building Team Comradery

This podcast episode centers around the challenges faced by product marketing managers in conducting their jobs and ensuring their roles are correctly understood in their respective organizations.Our three co-hosts share personal experiences and frustrations, highlighting issues such as being undervalued in strategic processes, difficulty in role definition, job insecurity, and the need for having a centralized decision-maker in positioning and messaging.They discuss the growing specializations in product marketing and highlight the urgency for product marketers to align their interests and job expectations with these evolving roles. Our co-hosts also highlight the upcoming ‘product marketing superstar' guests who'll be in later episodes to share their experience and expertise in being rockstar PMMs. Sections:0:00 How to fortify the value as a PMM in your org when you're at your wits end.00:28 Why prior experience matters to how you view product marketing01:33 Why we wanted to create this podcast, in the first place.03:15 Learning from PMMs, a few steps ahead of you.05:05 Future of PMM and sense of belonging in your career today

What is the role of Product Marketing Managers (PMMs) in gaming? The discussion emphasizes two key aspects that PMMs enable: Firstly, facilitating the identification of product-market fit early in the development phase, thereby preventing costly pivots after the game's launch Secondly, they allow Product Managers and Game Directors to concentrate on enhancing key performance indicators (KPIs) and team efficiency by serving as the primary liaison between the game team and internal/external marketing and user research teams. The episode delves into questions about what to expect from a PMM, how to identify a good one, the evolving nature of their role post-privacy changes, and optimal placement within a company's organizational structure. Jesse Lempiäinen, the CEO and Founder of Geeklab, a platform for efficiently testing product/market fit, provides insights and answers to these inquiries. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/deconstructoroffun/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/deconstructoroffun/support

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that productivity decreased by 2.7 percent in the first quarter of 2023, but hours worked increased by 3%. With productivity needing to be top of mind for many organizations trying to do more with less, how can sales enablement scale what good looks like to drive productivity? Shawnna Sumaoang: Hi and welcome to the Win Win Podcast. I'm your host, Shawnna Sumaoang. Join us as we dive into changing trends in the workplace and how to navigate them successfully. Here to discuss this topic is Michal Sever, the senior director of product marketing & product education at Nayax. Thanks for joining Michal! I'd love for you to tell us about yourself, your background, and your role. Michal Sever: Hi. It’s amazing to be here. Thank you for having me. I’m actually working in this amazing high-tech industry for more than 17 years, practicing innovation at amazing companies. I used to work at Amdocs, Microsoft, Gentrack, and now at Nayax. Nayax is actually a FinTech company, we are specializing in payments addressing retails from all sizes, segments, and regions. We are present in more than 80 countries. Now, post covid and with self-service on the rise, we are positioned in an amazing place to serve our customers best as we place cashless payment at the center of our gravity, enabling our customers, the merchants, the retailers, the operators to focus on their business, while without hardwired software, they can forget about the hardships of chip payments and just make sure that with our solutions they can increase the revenues and reduce their operational expenses. At Nayax, I’m leading the product marketing and education team. I have an amazing team and we are at the core of business here. We’re actually the missing link between marketing, market, sales, and product, and we are keeping everything aligned, tackling challenges as they come along, since challenges are inevitable. What drives us, Nayax and I, and my team are learning. We are learning all the time. We have a learning ecosystem and dealing with challenging situations, we find that learning is one of the easiest ways to bridge these gaps. This is what drives me, and my team, and each day it’s a new day here at Nayax we’re learning a lot. That’s me, my role, the company I work at. SS: Fantastic. Well, one of the things that I love about your background is you have a lot of experience in brand advocacy and storytelling. How does that background help influence your approach to product marketing and product education? MS: I’m very a strong believer in storytelling. I believe that behind every narrative there are a gazillion stories, but it really depends on the person that you are telling the story to. Eventually, the basis of storytelling is understanding the narrative, and behind these narratives are emotions. Our ability as product marketers and product education leaders is to tell the narrative of our customers or let’s say our prospects or everyone that we want to deliver a story to understand their pains, the challenges of each person that is standing in front of us. This is our superpower. The storytelling, understanding the narrative, understanding the pain behind each act. Once we build the story around these narratives and pains, I think it’s a great capability for each product, marketeer, and product education leader. SS: What does good product education look like to you? Maybe said another way, what are your best practices for creating effective product education programs? MS: I think this completely relates to the storytelling aspect and the emotional narrative, again, and I’ll explain. What we do at Nayaz, we are constantly trying to learn about our customer’s journey. The journey doesn’t have to be confronting only us. The journey can start anywhere and at any time. Our customers have their journey that they’re dealing with their businesses with their operations and sometimes even with us. They have a very comprehensive day in their lives each day and in order for us to create the best practices and effective product education programs, we need to really know our customers and to understand their journeys, let’s say across the board. As I said at the beginning, it’s a learning ecosystem. Each day we learn something new about our customers and about their journey. Once we realize how our customers are looking and what their journey is, only then when we know them, we can set our program into action. This is what we are constantly doing and we call this entire framework the engagement cycle. This is our best practice. We are making sure that we are engaging with our customers in every phase of this journey and in every phase, and it doesn’t matter if it is at the beginning of the cycle before he becomes our customer, and he is still in the marketing or pre-sale phase, or if he’s moving on to the order to activation process after he said, I do, and he decided, let’s say, to get married to us, or if it’s afterward when he wants to upscale or to get more knowledgeable and maybe even to upsell or, or to cross-sell. In every phase of this engagement circle, we need to understand his problem, his pains, and his emotions in order to address him with the right messaging, the right story, and the right content, which is very segmented. From pre-sale through activation to growth, we always need to make sure that our customers are happy. I think this is like the baseline or the root of best practice in our domain from the bottom up and top down. Keeping a marketing umbrella also gives us air coverage to remain top of mind of our customers and prospects, and eventually maintaining transparency and knowledge, all the time, knowledge about our customers and maintaining the knowledge within the customer’s space is about us. It’s like a road from us to them and from them to us in order to maintain transparency, knowledge, and understanding of each other. I think this is the basis of effective product education programs. SS: I love that. I think that’s fantastic. Help me tie that back to what we were talking about in the introduction around sales productivity. How can effective product marketing and education drive sales productivity? MS: The basis of sales productivity that is being affected by our activities, the PMMs activities, first, it really depends on the good relationship between the sales and the marketing teams. Sales and marketing have to go together, especially to make the PMM work. It has to go hand in hand. We need to dance well together in order to be effective and productive. One of the main focus areas for marketing and product marketing and specifically is to create successful and segmented sales enablement kits. By enabling sales in the right manner and with the right content, sales can be more productive, save time, and successfully drive closed-won opportunities. I’m going back to storytelling and emotion and connections. Product marketing managers are in charge of creating the sales kits that will be driven by emotions and driven by relevance in terms of the segment vertical and even the specific timeframe within the touching point. In order to build a productive sales kit that will affect productivity within sales, all the collaterals, the presentation, the product guides, and other materials have to equip sales in a segmented way. They need to be effectively communicated to the sales from within the PMM team. These materials eventually can empower the sales representatives to deliver constant and persuasive messages during their interactions with the prospects. I’ll give two examples. The first example in these, let’s say collaterals, that needs to be built is first is creating a relevant value proposition. One of the main focuses within the sales enablement kit is to communicate a unique value proposition and benefits of the specific product that the sales will want to take to its prospects. The sales teams need to articulate the value position to potential customers because when a customer understands how a product can solve their problem or fulfill their needs, they’re more likely to make a purchase, which means that the sales process or the cycle will be more productive. Another example is, of course, the messaging. Product marketing can ensure that the sales team has targeted and compelling messages that will resonate with specific customer segments because each message relates to another customer. There aren’t two customers or two personas within customers that will agree to the same approach or the same tone of voice. The message can be created in many ways. Tailored messages can enable the sales representative, again, to connect with the customers in a more deep emotional manner or level in order to drive more productivity to their activities. Of course, there is the outbound perspective as well, which means that effective product marketing can help build a strong product or a brand reputation, establishing the top of mind and trust and credibility within the customer’s domains and of course everything that has to do with lead generation throughout the entire customer journey. I think to sum it up eventually if product marketing and the sales community are working well together and dancing well together, as I said before, there are four main aspects that can be determined as productive and also can be measured because it’s really important to measure success all the time. First, I think by working together, we can give time back to sales that they can either use to approach more prospects or they can just sip a coffee at the beach, whatever they want to do more. No, I’m just joking. Second, everything has to do with a better customer experience. If a customer is happy and satisfied and we are approaching him with relevant messaging and the relevant tone of voice, he might purchase more. He might cross-purchase, et cetera. Third, pipeline creation. If we are delivering the right messaging and the right value proposition in the right channels, we might enlarge the pipeline. Last, we bring a higher, faster win rate, messaging, value proposition, and accurate sales kits. I think all of them, while working with sales, can definitely drive higher productivity for both departments. SS: Now, prior to implementing Highspot, what challenges were your reps facing as it relates to sales productivity, and how have you been able to solve those challenges since implementing Highspot? MS: Nayax has massively grown in the last couple of years. We also experienced a very successful IPO and our sales community grew a lot. We became bigger than we used to be, and it became a little bit hard to manage from afar. Our headquarters is in Israel, and it was really difficult to maintain a single tone of voice for everyone. That was a really huge challenge in order to maintain consistent selling. Now that we serve more than 80 countries, just think about the consequences of sales kit creation and the need to create so many different messaging for different personas in different verticals, segments, and countries and, of course, languages, but still keep one unique value proposition and similar brand reputation. It became messy and the need to bridge between what headquarters wanted to say about the brand and its product and how it was translated to the field became challenging. We had to find some kind of a solution, not only for maintaining one tone of voice but also to have like a single source of truth in which all the content resides, like a content repository that is all the time updated and true to what we are selling. What happened is we saw a lot of people from the sales community just using content from many years ago and not accurate content. We are working in a very rapid environment, everything here is microservices, the ICD and we are all the time continuing to invest and develop, and promote. We saw that people are not utilizing the most accurate and relevant and latest content, and therefore not maintaining even the transparency and the knowledge that is required for customers. It was a big problem, so we were actually searching for a platform that will solve all of these situations, a platform that will maintain a single source of truth for everybody that will communicate in one voice and eventually, most importantly, solve the content chaos that we had. I know that you guys call it content chaos at a Highspot, so we search for it, and then we find a Highspot. I think the rest is history because the problem was solved almost completely. One last thing we also wanted to search for a platform that is completely data-driven. It was really important for us now that we have such a large sales community, to make sure that all the sales are working in the right direction. It’s not a matter of trust, it’s a matter of aligning and having productive sales cycles. We search for a system that first will be completely connected to our CRM system, which is of course Salesforce, and that we’ll be able to connect between the marketing collaterals or the product marketing collaterals to the opportunities or leads themselves. We also wanted to save time for our representative. We didn’t want them to search for the right content while they’re in a sale opportunity while they’re on a call, we wanted them to save time and to find the collaterals they need swiftly and without having the headache of messing around. SS: Well, I’m glad that Highspot could help. I’d also love to understand, we’ve been on this topic of sales productivity, what is an example of an initiative or program that you’ve implemented to drive sales productivity, and how have you leveraged Highspot to support this? MS: By the way we call Highspot “Nayax Win”, we changed the name in order to fit our community because we call our sales community winners, so we called Highspot ‘Nayax Win'. Which everybody loves. If I’m confusing and saying win instead of Highspot, excuse me, but it’s burned to my head already. Relating to your question, we love the fact that Highspot is embedded into Salesforce you click on one button and then it opens up and all SDRs and the sales community can see the marketing collaterals that are relevant to a specific opportunity. The fact that it’s just in front of them with the collateral that they need to use within a specific call or within a specific opportunity is really helpful, but it’s not enough. One of the main features that we love about Highspot is the ability to pitch from within the system. We have created many pitching templates according to specific customers, specific verticals and segments, and of course, relating to specific products. The fact that you can be in Salesforce, working on a specific lead, for example, for our product, and then seeing just in front of you the relevant FAQs, frequently asked questions, or objection handling, and then the relevant one page that can close the deal. Once you finish the conversation with the lead, you tell him I will send an email with all the relevant material, and you just click the pitch button, and then it opens up a screen where you can either record yourself, or you can just send the collateral through to your customers. That’s amazing. Eventually, the customer receives a very nice landing page in which they can see the collaterals, and the summary of the conversation, and I think for both ways, for sales representatives and also the customers, it creates a feeling as if they’re all working on the same page. For us, the ability to connect the CRM to our Highspot or Nayaz win to ease the journey for our customers on one hand and the work of our SDRs was amazing. We see that it really drives sales productivity from the timesaving perspective, but it’s not enough. What we are reaching to see, and I suppose we can talk about it afterward in more detail, but we want to see the correlation between Highspot usage and the closed won. I’m sure that there is a high correlation between using the right messaging and the right collaterals and right messaging and it eventually leads to fewer touching points. For us, let’s say, a successful program or to show complete productivity will be the ability to show higher numbers in the closed wons that our collaterals that are pushed into Nayax Win, or Highspot, as opposed to those who didn’t. We can see it all because Highspot is completely data-driven, so we can see the names of the reps who used it and who didn’t. Therefore we can definitely see who is driving productivity utilizing Win, and we see the difference, which is amazing. We are only three months into the process and we already see the difference between a closed won of reps that are using Highspot and those who are not. SS: I love that. That is fantastic. Now, you also recently hosted your company sales kickoff event a few months ago. You mentioned that your team exceeded your KPIs for engagement from the sales team. I’d love to learn a little bit more about that. I know some of us are heading into kickoff season halfway through the year, what were some of your best practices for delivering an engaging event that really motivated your sellers? MS: We had an amazing SKO. Actually, at Nayax we do not call it SKO, we call it Connect because our selling model is indirect and direct. It means that we are selling a lot through distributors and partners, so we call it connect because we connect all the groups together. We had a very successful SKO in January after three years that we haven’t met each other face to face. It was really emotional and happy. It was really amazing to meet again after so many years, but when we brought everybody together, we had a lot of content to deliver. I think the two most engaging sessions, one of them, by the way, was driven by a Highspot, but one of the two most engaging sessions that we had was inspiring. The first one was an expo. We created an exposition of everything that we sell. As I said about Nayax, we are focusing on payment as our center of gravity, but the payment is actually part of a complete solution that is based on hardware and software. What we have first is our integrated point of sale with software that is embedded within the point of sale. Then we have the management suite behind it that can manage all the operations with our services, and of course, all our loyalty and engagement programs for increased revenue and recurring customers. What we’ve done at SKO, is we brought a lot of our devices that are connected to the retail devices themselves, the unattended machines, the retail machines, and we asked our sales to play with them and to see how it works as if they were consumers, the operators themselves that are having the consumers use their machines. I think they learned a lot about new features and new functions, how to use them, which problems occur, and if they occur, and we had the product managers decide on each solution and product explaining to the sales community once they’re practicing and utilizing the machines as if they are our operators or the consumers of the operators so they can touch it themselves and feel it themselves. It was a true engagement and they loved it. The second one was actually a role play in which we chose real-life examples of situations in which our sales representative needed to sell something to operators and explain the valuable position and the benefits behind our solutions. We created 10 different situations, which were very complicated, and we had a panel of judges, which was our two CEOs, and our entire c-suite. We asked the sales representative to show how they are planning to manage the sale. How many touching points, which content do they want to deliver in each touching point, and how are they planning to manage it? In the sales plays themselves, what we tested was not what they sell or how they sell the specific product, but also how they are selling in terms of sales soft skills, which was a combination of training and coaching. I think the combination of coaching on top of the training on the solutions themselves was very engaging and successful because they learned a lot with regard to not only the capabilities of the products but also their capabilities as salespeople and sales representatives on how to leverage their soft skills to better places. These two sessions were incredibly successful, but the entire SKO was amazing and it was so much fun. I can’t wait for the next one. Seriously. SS: I love that. Now you also have a 92% active learner rate in your training and coaching programs in Highspot. How have you leveraged Highspot's training and coaching capabilities to really develop engaging product education per programs, and how has this motivated productivity? MS: I must say it wasn’t easy and I feel as if we only started, but the entire team was really engaged. It’s the sales team and the product team, the product marketing team, and the marketing team. We had a hackathon to build all the materials and we really built it all in order to make sure that we are not neglecting any segment, any vertical, any line of business, any geographies. It’s still a work in progress. I mean, it’s not finalized at all, and we still have a long way to go, but there are a few things that we did that were really important in order to achieve such a high score in a lower period of time. I think the first one is to have a sales enablement champion that will drive the entire development and engagement and will be like the missing link between sales and product marketing, sales, and headquarters. I think this is definitely something that raised the bow for us. Once we had our sales enablement champ listening to sales pitches and A/B testing scripts and reviewing everything that we’ve done, it really leveraged our training and coaching capabilities. This person from my team really bridged the gap, and once she spoke with the sales teams, she came back to us, to the marketing team on what to fix and what to do better, and this is how we better ourselves. I think it was really important. In order to motivate usage and engagement, everybody used the programs and system we needed to package it alongside sales enablement sessions. We have a team that we are managing as if it was a WhatsApp team within Microsoft Teams. We are constantly sharing information with it. I think eventually, we are only at the beginning, we still have a long way to go in order for me to feel that we are completely bringing in the productivity from the system, but we are in the beginning, we are already saving time for reps. Let’s say the end game will be to show the complete correlation between closed won and the usage of the collaterals, and then we can definitely speak about complete productivity. We still have a long way to go, despite the high score that you gave us. SS: Yeah. I love to hear that though. Well, last question for you. What are some key business results that you have been able to achieve since implementing Highspot, especially as it relates to sales productivity? MS: Each month we see an increase in the usage of salespeople within the system, and we see a correlation between the usage and the revenue from closed won. The first month that we started utilizing the system, which was March, we were standing on zero engagement. Now, in the sales community, we have about 100 users. We already have 35% of engagement. From this 35% of engagement of active users that are actively using pitches and our sales plays and are visiting the various spots on a daily basis, we see an increase. I don’t want to state a number because it’s constantly changing, but we have an increase in there, let’s say closed-won capabilities. I will be happy to share the numbers, but only in a few weeks because we are still sharpening our analytics there. As I said before, it’s already beginning and we did establish a single source of truth, which is 100% success. We do not see people using any materials from their desktops anymore, which means that this KPI was 100% achieved. In terms of a single source of truth achieved in terms of one tone of voice. This was also, in my opinion, let’s say 90% or 95% achieved. We see that everybody is using the messaging that we want them to use. We see a clear path in the change and how people are speaking about Nayax in the same messaging, as I said at the beginning, the story that we wanted them to speak about and to tell, we see it and we hear it across the globe from the United States, from Europe, Australia, New Zealand, China, Japan, everybody is utilizing the same tone of voice, which is amazing. We still have a long way to go. There is a saying, by the way, which I love. I suddenly remembered from Robin Shama that he said that change is hard at first, messy in the middle, and gorgeous at the end. I think eventually the adoption of Nayax win or Highspot, it's all about behavioral change for the salespeople, and from that perspective, from that KPI of a behavioral change, I think we have at least 85% completion because we see the usage and we see people are adopting it. It’s hard to adopt a different way to utilize content and to consume content, and a different way to pitch after 15 or 17 years that you have been pitching in the same way suddenly to have somebody come in and say, no, do this, do that. It’s hard, but we are on the way and we want to influence the increase in closed won with the system. I believe we will get there. I think the end game for us will be to see a complete correlation between Highspot usage and closed won. In order to do that, we’ll keep pushing and it’s not easy, but eventually, it’ll be gorgeous, so we have patience. SS: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. I appreciate the time. MS: For sure. It was lovely being here and thank you for having me. SS: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Win Win podcast. Be sure to tune in next time for more insights on how you can maximize enablement success with Highspot.

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that productivity decreased by 2.7 percent in the first quarter of 2023, but hours worked increased by 3%. With productivity needing to be top of mind for many organizations trying to do more with less, how can sales enablement scale what good looks like to drive productivity? Shawnna Sumaoang: Hi and welcome to the Win Win Podcast. I'm your host, Shawnna Sumaoang. Join us as we dive into changing trends in the workplace and how to navigate them successfully. Here to discuss this topic is Michal Sever, the senior director of product marketing & product education at Nayax. Thanks for joining Michal! I'd love for you to tell us about yourself, your background, and your role. Michal Sever: Hi. It’s amazing to be here. Thank you for having me. I’m actually working in this amazing high-tech industry for more than 17 years, practicing innovation at amazing companies. I used to work at Amdocs, Microsoft, Gentrack, and now at Nayax. Nayax is actually a FinTech company, we are specializing in payments addressing retails from all sizes, segments, and regions. We are present in more than 80 countries. Now, post covid and with self-service on the rise, we are positioned in an amazing place to serve our customers best as we place cashless payment at the center of our gravity, enabling our customers, the merchants, the retailers, the operators to focus on their business, while without hardwired software, they can forget about the hardships of chip payments and just make sure that with our solutions they can increase the revenues and reduce their operational expenses. At Nayax, I’m leading the product marketing and education team. I have an amazing team and we are at the core of business here. We’re actually the missing link between marketing, market, sales, and product, and we are keeping everything aligned, tackling challenges as they come along, since challenges are inevitable. What drives us, Nayax and I, and my team are learning. We are learning all the time. We have a learning ecosystem and dealing with challenging situations, we find that learning is one of the easiest ways to bridge these gaps. This is what drives me, and my team, and each day it’s a new day here at Nayax we’re learning a lot. That’s me, my role, the company I work at. SS: Fantastic. Well, one of the things that I love about your background is you have a lot of experience in brand advocacy and storytelling. How does that background help influence your approach to product marketing and product education? MS: I’m very a strong believer in storytelling. I believe that behind every narrative there are a gazillion stories, but it really depends on the person that you are telling the story to. Eventually, the basis of storytelling is understanding the narrative, and behind these narratives are emotions. Our ability as product marketers and product education leaders is to tell the narrative of our customers or let’s say our prospects or everyone that we want to deliver a story to understand their pains, the challenges of each person that is standing in front of us. This is our superpower. The storytelling, understanding the narrative, understanding the pain behind each act. Once we build the story around these narratives and pains, I think it’s a great capability for each product, marketeer, and product education leader. SS: What does good product education look like to you? Maybe said another way, what are your best practices for creating effective product education programs? MS: I think this completely relates to the storytelling aspect and the emotional narrative, again, and I’ll explain. What we do at Nayaz, we are constantly trying to learn about our customer’s journey. The journey doesn’t have to be confronting only us. The journey can start anywhere and at any time. Our customers have their journey that they’re dealing with their businesses with their operations and sometimes even with us. They have a very comprehensive day in their lives each day and in order for us to create the best practices and effective product education programs, we need to really know our customers and to understand their journeys, let’s say across the board. As I said at the beginning, it’s a learning ecosystem. Each day we learn something new about our customers and about their journey. Once we realize how our customers are looking and what their journey is, only then when we know them, we can set our program into action. This is what we are constantly doing and we call this entire framework the engagement cycle. This is our best practice. We are making sure that we are engaging with our customers in every phase of this journey and in every phase, and it doesn’t matter if it is at the beginning of the cycle before he becomes our customer, and he is still in the marketing or pre-sale phase, or if he’s moving on to the order to activation process after he said, I do, and he decided, let’s say, to get married to us, or if it’s afterward when he wants to upscale or to get more knowledgeable and maybe even to upsell or, or to cross-sell. In every phase of this engagement circle, we need to understand his problem, his pains, and his emotions in order to address him with the right messaging, the right story, and the right content, which is very segmented. From pre-sale through activation to growth, we always need to make sure that our customers are happy. I think this is like the baseline or the root of best practice in our domain from the bottom up and top down. Keeping a marketing umbrella also gives us air coverage to remain top of mind of our customers and prospects, and eventually maintaining transparency and knowledge, all the time, knowledge about our customers and maintaining the knowledge within the customer’s space is about us. It’s like a road from us to them and from them to us in order to maintain transparency, knowledge, and understanding of each other. I think this is the basis of effective product education programs. SS: I love that. I think that’s fantastic. Help me tie that back to what we were talking about in the introduction around sales productivity. How can effective product marketing and education drive sales productivity? MS: The basis of sales productivity that is being affected by our activities, the PMMs activities, first, it really depends on the good relationship between the sales and the marketing teams. Sales and marketing have to go together, especially to make the PMM work. It has to go hand in hand. We need to dance well together in order to be effective and productive. One of the main focus areas for marketing and product marketing and specifically is to create successful and segmented sales enablement kits. By enabling sales in the right manner and with the right content, sales can be more productive, save time, and successfully drive closed-won opportunities. I’m going back to storytelling and emotion and connections. Product marketing managers are in charge of creating the sales kits that will be driven by emotions and driven by relevance in terms of the segment vertical and even the specific timeframe within the touching point. In order to build a productive sales kit that will affect productivity within sales, all the collaterals, the presentation, the product guides, and other materials have to equip sales in a segmented way. They need to be effectively communicated to the sales from within the PMM team. These materials eventually can empower the sales representatives to deliver constant and persuasive messages during their interactions with the prospects. I’ll give two examples. The first example in these, let’s say collaterals, that needs to be built is first is creating a relevant value proposition. One of the main focuses within the sales enablement kit is to communicate a unique value proposition and benefits of the specific product that the sales will want to take to its prospects. The sales teams need to articulate the value position to potential customers because when a customer understands how a product can solve their problem or fulfill their needs, they’re more likely to make a purchase, which means that the sales process or the cycle will be more productive. Another example is, of course, the messaging. Product marketing can ensure that the sales team has targeted and compelling messages that will resonate with specific customer segments because each message relates to another customer. There aren’t two customers or two personas within customers that will agree to the same approach or the same tone of voice. The message can be created in many ways. Tailored messages can enable the sales representative, again, to connect with the customers in a more deep emotional manner or level in order to drive more productivity to their activities. Of course, there is the outbound perspective as well, which means that effective product marketing can help build a strong product or a brand reputation, establishing the top of mind and trust and credibility within the customer’s domains and of course everything that has to do with lead generation throughout the entire customer journey. I think to sum it up eventually if product marketing and the sales community are working well together and dancing well together, as I said before, there are four main aspects that can be determined as productive and also can be measured because it’s really important to measure success all the time. First, I think by working together, we can give time back to sales that they can either use to approach more prospects or they can just sip a coffee at the beach, whatever they want to do more. No, I’m just joking. Second, everything has to do with a better customer experience. If a customer is happy and satisfied and we are approaching him with relevant messaging and the relevant tone of voice, he might purchase more. He might cross-purchase, et cetera. Third, pipeline creation. If we are delivering the right messaging and the right value proposition in the right channels, we might enlarge the pipeline. Last, we bring a higher, faster win rate, messaging, value proposition, and accurate sales kits. I think all of them, while working with sales, can definitely drive higher productivity for both departments. SS: Now, prior to implementing Highspot, what challenges were your reps facing as it relates to sales productivity, and how have you been able to solve those challenges since implementing Highspot? MS: Nayax has massively grown in the last couple of years. We also experienced a very successful IPO and our sales community grew a lot. We became bigger than we used to be, and it became a little bit hard to manage from afar. Our headquarters is in Israel, and it was really difficult to maintain a single tone of voice for everyone. That was a really huge challenge in order to maintain consistent selling. Now that we serve more than 80 countries, just think about the consequences of sales kit creation and the need to create so many different messaging for different personas in different verticals, segments, and countries and, of course, languages, but still keep one unique value proposition and similar brand reputation. It became messy and the need to bridge between what headquarters wanted to say about the brand and its product and how it was translated to the field became challenging. We had to find some kind of a solution, not only for maintaining one tone of voice but also to have like a single source of truth in which all the content resides, like a content repository that is all the time updated and true to what we are selling. What happened is we saw a lot of people from the sales community just using content from many years ago and not accurate content. We are working in a very rapid environment, everything here is microservices, the ICD and we are all the time continuing to invest and develop, and promote. We saw that people are not utilizing the most accurate and relevant and latest content, and therefore not maintaining even the transparency and the knowledge that is required for customers. It was a big problem, so we were actually searching for a platform that will solve all of these situations, a platform that will maintain a single source of truth for everybody that will communicate in one voice and eventually, most importantly, solve the content chaos that we had. I know that you guys call it content chaos at a Highspot, so we search for it, and then we find a Highspot. I think the rest is history because the problem was solved almost completely. One last thing we also wanted to search for a platform that is completely data-driven. It was really important for us now that we have such a large sales community, to make sure that all the sales are working in the right direction. It’s not a matter of trust, it’s a matter of aligning and having productive sales cycles. We search for a system that first will be completely connected to our CRM system, which is of course Salesforce, and that we’ll be able to connect between the marketing collaterals or the product marketing collaterals to the opportunities or leads themselves. We also wanted to save time for our representative. We didn’t want them to search for the right content while they’re in a sale opportunity while they’re on a call, we wanted them to save time and to find the collaterals they need swiftly and without having the headache of messing around. SS: Well, I’m glad that Highspot could help. I’d also love to understand, we’ve been on this topic of sales productivity, what is an example of an initiative or program that you’ve implemented to drive sales productivity, and how have you leveraged Highspot to support this? MS: By the way we call Highspot “Nayax Win”, we changed the name in order to fit our community because we call our sales community winners, so we called Highspot ‘Nayax Win'. Which everybody loves. If I’m confusing and saying win instead of Highspot, excuse me, but it’s burned to my head already. Relating to your question, we love the fact that Highspot is embedded into Salesforce you click on one button and then it opens up and all SDRs and the sales community can see the marketing collaterals that are relevant to a specific opportunity. The fact that it’s just in front of them with the collateral that they need to use within a specific call or within a specific opportunity is really helpful, but it’s not enough. One of the main features that we love about Highspot is the ability to pitch from within the system. We have created many pitching templates according to specific customers, specific verticals and segments, and of course, relating to specific products. The fact that you can be in Salesforce, working on a specific lead, for example, for our product, and then seeing just in front of you the relevant FAQs, frequently asked questions, or objection handling, and then the relevant one page that can close the deal. Once you finish the conversation with the lead, you tell him I will send an email with all the relevant material, and you just click the pitch button, and then it opens up a screen where you can either record yourself, or you can just send the collateral through to your customers. That’s amazing. Eventually, the customer receives a very nice landing page in which they can see the collaterals, and the summary of the conversation, and I think for both ways, for sales representatives and also the customers, it creates a feeling as if they’re all working on the same page. For us, the ability to connect the CRM to our Highspot or Nayaz win to ease the journey for our customers on one hand and the work of our SDRs was amazing. We see that it really drives sales productivity from the timesaving perspective, but it’s not enough. What we are reaching to see, and I suppose we can talk about it afterward in more detail, but we want to see the correlation between Highspot usage and the closed won. I’m sure that there is a high correlation between using the right messaging and the right collaterals and right messaging and it eventually leads to fewer touching points. For us, let’s say, a successful program or to show complete productivity will be the ability to show higher numbers in the closed wons that our collaterals that are pushed into Nayax Win, or Highspot, as opposed to those who didn’t. We can see it all because Highspot is completely data-driven, so we can see the names of the reps who used it and who didn’t. Therefore we can definitely see who is driving productivity utilizing Win, and we see the difference, which is amazing. We are only three months into the process and we already see the difference between a closed won of reps that are using Highspot and those who are not. SS: I love that. That is fantastic. Now, you also recently hosted your company sales kickoff event a few months ago. You mentioned that your team exceeded your KPIs for engagement from the sales team. I’d love to learn a little bit more about that. I know some of us are heading into kickoff season halfway through the year, what were some of your best practices for delivering an engaging event that really motivated your sellers? MS: We had an amazing SKO. Actually, at Nayax we do not call it SKO, we call it Connect because our selling model is indirect and direct. It means that we are selling a lot through distributors and partners, so we call it connect because we connect all the groups together. We had a very successful SKO in January after three years that we haven’t met each other face to face. It was really emotional and happy. It was really amazing to meet again after so many years, but when we brought everybody together, we had a lot of content to deliver. I think the two most engaging sessions, one of them, by the way, was driven by a Highspot, but one of the two most engaging sessions that we had was inspiring. The first one was an expo. We created an exposition of everything that we sell. As I said about Nayax, we are focusing on payment as our center of gravity, but the payment is actually part of a complete solution that is based on hardware and software. What we have first is our integrated point of sale with software that is embedded within the point of sale. Then we have the management suite behind it that can manage all the operations with our services, and of course, all our loyalty and engagement programs for increased revenue and recurring customers. What we’ve done at SKO, is we brought a lot of our devices that are connected to the retail devices themselves, the unattended machines, the retail machines, and we asked our sales to play with them and to see how it works as if they were consumers, the operators themselves that are having the consumers use their machines. I think they learned a lot about new features and new functions, how to use them, which problems occur, and if they occur, and we had the product managers decide on each solution and product explaining to the sales community once they’re practicing and utilizing the machines as if they are our operators or the consumers of the operators so they can touch it themselves and feel it themselves. It was a true engagement and they loved it. The second one was actually a role play in which we chose real-life examples of situations in which our sales representative needed to sell something to operators and explain the valuable position and the benefits behind our solutions. We created 10 different situations, which were very complicated, and we had a panel of judges, which was our two CEOs, and our entire c-suite. We asked the sales representative to show how they are planning to manage the sale. How many touching points, which content do they want to deliver in each touching point, and how are they planning to manage it? In the sales plays themselves, what we tested was not what they sell or how they sell the specific product, but also how they are selling in terms of sales soft skills, which was a combination of training and coaching. I think the combination of coaching on top of the training on the solutions themselves was very engaging and successful because they learned a lot with regard to not only the capabilities of the products but also their capabilities as salespeople and sales representatives on how to leverage their soft skills to better places. These two sessions were incredibly successful, but the entire SKO was amazing and it was so much fun. I can’t wait for the next one. Seriously. SS: I love that. Now you also have a 92% active learner rate in your training and coaching programs in Highspot. How have you leveraged Highspot's training and coaching capabilities to really develop engaging product education per programs, and how has this motivated productivity? MS: I must say it wasn’t easy and I feel as if we only started, but the entire team was really engaged. It’s the sales team and the product team, the product marketing team, and the marketing team. We had a hackathon to build all the materials and we really built it all in order to make sure that we are not neglecting any segment, any vertical, any line of business, any geographies. It’s still a work in progress. I mean, it’s not finalized at all, and we still have a long way to go, but there are a few things that we did that were really important in order to achieve such a high score in a lower period of time. I think the first one is to have a sales enablement champion that will drive the entire development and engagement and will be like the missing link between sales and product marketing, sales, and headquarters. I think this is definitely something that raised the bow for us. Once we had our sales enablement champ listening to sales pitches and A/B testing scripts and reviewing everything that we’ve done, it really leveraged our training and coaching capabilities. This person from my team really bridged the gap, and once she spoke with the sales teams, she came back to us, to the marketing team on what to fix and what to do better, and this is how we better ourselves. I think it was really important. In order to motivate usage and engagement, everybody used the programs and system we needed to package it alongside sales enablement sessions. We have a team that we are managing as if it was a WhatsApp team within Microsoft Teams. We are constantly sharing information with it. I think eventually, we are only at the beginning, we still have a long way to go in order for me to feel that we are completely bringing in the productivity from the system, but we are in the beginning, we are already saving time for reps. Let’s say the end game will be to show the complete correlation between closed won and the usage of the collaterals, and then we can definitely speak about complete productivity. We still have a long way to go, despite the high score that you gave us. SS: Yeah. I love to hear that though. Well, last question for you. What are some key business results that you have been able to achieve since implementing Highspot, especially as it relates to sales productivity? MS: Each month we see an increase in the usage of salespeople within the system, and we see a correlation between the usage and the revenue from closed won. The first month that we started utilizing the system, which was March, we were standing on zero engagement. Now, in the sales community, we have about 100 users. We already have 35% of engagement. From this 35% of engagement of active users that are actively using pitches and our sales plays and are visiting the various spots on a daily basis, we see an increase. I don’t want to state a number because it’s constantly changing, but we have an increase in there, let’s say closed-won capabilities. I will be happy to share the numbers, but only in a few weeks because we are still sharpening our analytics there. As I said before, it’s already beginning and we did establish a single source of truth, which is 100% success. We do not see people using any materials from their desktops anymore, which means that this KPI was 100% achieved. In terms of a single source of truth achieved in terms of one tone of voice. This was also, in my opinion, let’s say 90% or 95% achieved. We see that everybody is using the messaging that we want them to use. We see a clear path in the change and how people are speaking about Nayax in the same messaging, as I said at the beginning, the story that we wanted them to speak about and to tell, we see it and we hear it across the globe from the United States, from Europe, Australia, New Zealand, China, Japan, everybody is utilizing the same tone of voice, which is amazing. We still have a long way to go. There is a saying, by the way, which I love. I suddenly remembered from Robin Shama that he said that change is hard at first, messy in the middle, and gorgeous at the end. I think eventually the adoption of Nayax win or Highspot, it's all about behavioral change for the salespeople, and from that perspective, from that KPI of a behavioral change, I think we have at least 85% completion because we see the usage and we see people are adopting it. It’s hard to adopt a different way to utilize content and to consume content, and a different way to pitch after 15 or 17 years that you have been pitching in the same way suddenly to have somebody come in and say, no, do this, do that. It’s hard, but we are on the way and we want to influence the increase in closed won with the system. I believe we will get there. I think the end game for us will be to see a complete correlation between Highspot usage and closed won. In order to do that, we’ll keep pushing and it’s not easy, but eventually, it’ll be gorgeous, so we have patience. SS: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today. I appreciate the time. MS: For sure. It was lovely being here and thank you for having me. SS: Thank you for listening to this episode of the Win Win podcast. Be sure to tune in next time for more insights on how you can maximize enablement success with Highspot.