Podcasts about SoundExchange

Episode 247 On this week's episode of the YMC podcast, join your hosts Jay Gilbert and Mike Etchart as they discuss these important music industry stories: "2025 Q1 Earnings: Here's What Every Music Company Made" (Billboard); "The Music Business Saturation Problem Keeps Getting Bigger" (Billboard); "Are We Reaching Peak Fandom?" (MIDiA). Plus audio drops from Portia Sabin, President of the Music Business Association, Russ Crupnick, Managing Partner of Musicwatch, and Michael Huppe, President and CEO at Sound Exchange. Subscribe to the newsletter! YourMorning.Coffee

Episode 243 On this week's edition of the YMC podcast, your humble hosts Jay Gilbert and Mike Etchart chat about these important music industry stories: "Why Songs Seem Shorter—And Why It's More Complicated Than YouThink" (Chartmetric); “Old School Vs New School” (Bob Lefsetz); "8 Things We Learned From Universal Music Group's 2024 Annual Report" (Music Business Worldwide).  Plus audio drops wth Harvey Mason Jr. from the Recording Academy, Michael Huppe from Sound Exchange, and Mark Mulligan from MIDiA!   Subscribe to the newsletter! YourMorning.Coffee

In Part 1 of this two-part series, Kent engages in a lively conversation with Rudy Gatlin, a member of the renowned country music group, the Gatlin Brothers. Kent opens with a humorous anecdote about a "seniors GPS" and shares his experience attending a cold inauguration in Washington, D.C. The discussion then shifts to Rudy's family background, the Gatlin Brothers' early days in Texas, their move to Nashville, and their first hit song, "Broken Lady." Rudy also reflects on the evolving music industry, highlighting the impact of digital platforms and streaming services on artists' royalties.

Tisha Morris welcomes Molly Newman, President of CD Baby, the leading music distribution company for independent artists, to share her extensive experience in the music industry, including her beginnings as a drummer in the punk band Bratmobile. They discuss the impact of the recent fires in L.A. on the music community, the evolving landscape of music distribution, and the importance of maintaining community connections. Molly also elaborates on the significant changes in the music industry, such as the role of AI and the challenges of music discovery. She emphasizes the importance of artists treating their careers as businesses while staying true to their creative passions.   00:14 Molly Newman's Background and Achievements 01:20 Impact of Fires on the Music Industry 03:45 The Evolution of CD Baby 08:09 Challenges and Opportunities for Independent Artists 22:03 The Role of AI in Music 28:46 Balancing Creativity and Business About Molly Neuman: Molly Neuman is President of CD Baby, owned by Downtown Music, the leading music distribution company dedicated to empowering independent and self-releasing artists. As President, Neuman is leading strategy and management of Downtown which serves millions of artists every day. Neuman was previously CMO of Downtown Music Holdings, CD Baby's parent company and prior to that, President of Downtown's Songtrust, which grew under her leadership to manage more than 3 million copyrights. With a career that has been focused on empowering musicians at all career stages, Neuman has been Head of Music at Kickstarter, and has held senior roles in licensing in digital music, as well as label and artist management. She currently serves on the Advisory Board of Women in Music and has previously served on the boards of the Music Business Association, SoundExchange and A2IM. Neuman was awarded International Woman of the Year at the 2024 Music Week Awards and has been recognized by Billboard in its 2018 Digital Power Players List, as well as its Women in Music Lists for 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2024. Her musical career began as a drummer in Bratmobile, a punk band who were in the first wave of the riot grrrl movement. https://cdbaby.com/ @cdbaby (Instagram) https://www.linkedin.com/company/cd-baby/

Tune in to this informative episode entitled, Surprising Things You Will Learn About Digital Mechanical Royalties, on the MUBUTV Music Business Insider Podcast as hosts Eric Knight and Ritch Esra sit down with Serona Elton, head of educational partnerships at the MLC and music business department head at the University of Miami. They dive deep into the significance of the Music Modernization Act and its impact on digital mechanical royalties. Discover how the MLC's tailored programs and resources, such as PowerPoints and video materials, are making complex industry concepts accessible to diverse student populations. Perfect for students, educators, and music professionals alike!

TikTok verabschiedet sich von seinem Musik-Streaming-Dienst, doch die Plattform setzt auf neue Partnerschaften. Was steckt dahinter und wie könnte es die Musikindustrie verändern? Außerdem: Ein globales KI-Register von SoundExchange soll Künstlerrechte schützen und Spotify bietet KI-generierte Playlists in neuen Märkten an.

This episode dives into the complex world of music composition, master recording ownership, royalties, and income opportunities for independent musicians.  Discover the benefits of owning your compositions and the importance of master recording ownership in protecting your creative work.  Learn essential tips for navigating the music industry, from Performing Rights Organizations (PROs) to mechanical royalties and synchronization fees. Understand how songwriters earn income from public performances, reproductions, and visual mediums.  The discussion covers the primary income sources for master recordings and emphasizes the importance of signing up with organizations like SoundExchange and a PRO to collect your well-deserved royalties. Further, I cover mechanical royalties for master recordings, components of the collection process, synchronization licensing for both composition and master recording owners, and the role of PROs in paying royalties to songwriters and publishers. Join me as I unravel the music composition and master recording ownership, and royalties, empowering independent musicians to protect their creative works and maximize their income potential.  Support the Unstarving Musician The Unstarving Musician exists solely through the generosity of its listeners, readers, and viewers. Learn how you can offer your support. This episode was powered by Music Marketing Method, a program for independent musicians looking to grow their music career. Music Marketing Method was created by my good friend Lynz Crichton. I'm in the program and I'm learning tons! I'm growing my fan base and learning about many ways that I'll be earning money in the new year. It's also helping me grow this podcast. How cool is that? To lean more and find out if Music Marketing Method can help your music career, visit UnstarvingMusician.com/MusicMarketing. This episode of the was powered by Liner Notes. Learn from the hundreds of musicians and industry pros I've spoken with for the Unstarving Musician on topics such as marketing, songwriting, touring, sync licensing and much more. Sign up for Liner Notes. Liner Notes is an email newsletter from yours truly, in which I share some of the best knowledge gems garnered from the many conversations featured on the Unstarving Musician. You'll also be privy to the latest podcast episodes and Liner Notes subscriber exclusives. Sign up at UnstarvingMusician.com. It's free and you can unsubscribe at anytime. Mentions and Related Episodes Episode 278 Kayana – Drip Release Strategy, Self Forgiveness, Dating, a Short Film Commission, and a Creative Retreat that Gave Her the Theme and Outline for Her Forthcoming Album  Unraveled by Kayana  The Rain Song - Led Zeppelin cover by Chiara Kilchling  Starry Messenger: Cosmic Perspectives on Civilization by Neil deGrasse Tyson  Unstarving Musician Mug  How to License Your Music as a DIY Musician Music Publishing 101: How To Make Money With Your Music  Owning Your Master Recording: All You Need to Know  A beginner's guide to performing rights organizations (PROs) ​ Leading by Example: How Taylor Swift Has Spotlighted Musician Rights and Ownership ​ Music Fairness Action Campaign Launches With Support Of Dionne Warwick SoundExchange  BMI  ASCAP  SESAC  Resources The Unstarving Musician's Guide to Getting Paid Gigs, by Robonzo Music Marketing Method – The program that helps musicians find fans, grow an audience and make consistent income Bandzoogle – The all-in-one platform that makes it easy to build a beautiful website for your music Dreamhost – See the latest deals from Dreamhost, save money and support the UM in the process. More Resources for musicians Pardon the Interruption (Disclosure)  Some of the links in this post are affiliate links. This means I make a small commission, at no extra charge to you, if you purchase using those links. Thanks for your support! Visit UnstarvingMusician.com to sign up for Liner Notes to learn what I'm learning from the best indie musicians and music industry professionals. Stay in touch! @RobonzoDrummer on Twitter  and  Instagram @UnstarvingMusician on Facebook  and  YouTube  

In this episode of the DIY Musician Podcast, Cristina sits down with CD Baby Artist Services Manager, Austin, to discuss CD Baby Boost. Together they dive into the various royalties collected by Boost, registration with the MLC and SoundExchange, sync licensing opportunities, and how this service differs from the now retired CD Baby PRO. Please visit our Help Center for more info: https://support.cdbaby.com/hc/en-us/articles/17723985999885-CDB-Boost

Dive into the dynamic landscape of the music industry alongside Louis King of Gala Music and Marc Rucker of Sound Exchange. Uncover the transformative influence of web3 and AI on artist rights, royalties, and the boundless opportunities within the metaverse. Stay tuned as we delve into the intersection of AI, social media, and the future of music!Support us through our Sponsors! ☕

Two entertainment lawyers (Tynia Coats & Bob Celestin) talk about publishing, producer contracts, & split sheets, covering topics like - how to get a publishing deal, producer royalties, how to do splits for a song, PRO registration, SoundExchange, the MLC & more! Subscribe on YouTube & watch the full video episode: https://www.youtube.com/@tyniacoats Follow on Instagram: @tyniacoats DistroKid Discount Code 7% OFF: https://distrokid.com/vip/seven/1417349 TuneCore Discount Code 20% OFF: https://www.tunecore.com/?ae=153&ref=tyniacoatssp&jt=ytpartner20 Symphonic Discount Code 25% OFF: Use code "TC25"

Join Elmer and host Aaron as we pick apart the 2024 RSD list and discuss our top 5 most anticipated RSD titles! Also in this episode is an interview with Sarah Arnold, owner of Clutch Collective and Jennifer Tinkler from Marietta Main Street is in the studio to discuss First Friday and what's coming up this spring in downtown Marietta Ohio.

Esther-Mireya Tejeda is the first chief marketing officer at Anywhere Real Estate Inc., home to some of the most recognized brands in the industry. Prior to Anywhere, she was a growth catalyst at organizations like SoundExchange, Entercom/CBS Radio, Univision, PepsiCo and Diageo. She chairs the Women in Tech and Product group at Anywhere and is on the board of directors for the DEI Council. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/dylanconroy/support

When Taylor Swift pulled her music from Spotify in 2014, she shone a spotlight on an issue that persists in the music industry today: artist must jump through major hoops to be compensated for their music that is played across multiple platforms. Nine years later, the economics are still challenging for artists to receive payment for their work. Artists earn some royalties from streaming services and receive no compensation when their music is played on traditional AM or FM radio due to old broadcast rules. These issues are further exacerbated by AI, which poses risks to artists licensed work and raises questions around their creativity being compensated.SoundExchange was created in 2003 to help resolve this issue by tracking listening data across platforms and facilitate payments to artists. Since its creation, the organization has adapted its payment systems for performance royalties to keep pace with the modern music ecosystem as it changes with new technology. On this episode, Michael Huppe, the President and CEO of SoundExchange, joins Shane Tews. Under his leadership, the organization has overseen billions of dollars in payments and has drastically increased royalty rates to artists.Tune in to break down the complex economics of the music industry and the impact of AI technologies on the landscape of music.

Muchas personas en la industria musical no conocen qué es SoundExchange ni cómo funcionan las regalías que esta organización recolecta. Por eso en este episodio aprenderás qué es SoundExchange y cómo funciona, qué regalías recolecta, quién tiene derecho a estas regalías, y cómo puedes recolectarlas. Si quieres aprender sobre SoundExchange, este episodio es para ti. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/seedcademy/message

Hello friends! Greg Beets and Richard Whymark, authors of A Curious Mix of People: The Underground Scene of 90's Austin, a new book on University of Texas Press. This oral history of Austin's punk and DIY scene in the 90's covers the bands, the clubs, the radios stations, the zines, the labels, the TV shows and channels, and the fans of an amazing scene that spawned some of Austin's best music of the era like, Spoon, Sixteen Deluxe, Sincola and so many more. The book is available online, in Austin record stores and bookstores. Go to acuriousmixofpeople.com for more info on how to get it, video interviews and more. We have a great talk about the origins of the book, our experiences in the 90's, Austin Music Network, the G.G. Allin show in '92 at The Cavity, some of our favorite bands, shows and clubs, the magic of Sound Exchange and much more. I had a great time getting to know Greg and Richard. I'm sure you will too. You should check out this book. It's a great read. Let's get down! Get the best, full-spectrum CBD products from True Hemp Science and enter code HDIGH for a special offer from How Did I Get Here? If you feel so inclined. Venmo: venmo.com/John-Goudie-1  Paypal: paypal.me/johnnygoudie  

Compositores preocupados, plataformas y sociedades de gestión colectiva ante los tribunales, y más. Los abogados de música, Lic. Alexiomar Rodríguez y Lic. George Arroyo, explican todo lo que está pasando en la industria de la música y cómo puede afectar tu dinero en regalías musicales.

In radio news, ESPN gets a makeover.  Sirius is sued by Sound Exchange over music royalties.  We have lots of news on the street, and we will conclude our look at the July Personal People Meter Ratings.  Next those call letter and format changes, followed by bill's feature the Greaseman from WAPE AM in Jacksonville in 1976.  This weeks aircheck is Solid Gold Saturday Night hosted by Bob Worthington.  Finally our featured station is WJBR FM from Wilmington De and their morning show hosted by Dian and Justen.

El Lic. Alexiomar habla con el equipo de Destra® Legal desde Medellín para comparar cómo opera la industria musical en Colombia vs. los Estados Unidos y Puerto Rico.

Michael Huppe, CEO of SoundExchange, discusses the challenges facing the music industry due to artificial intelligence. Cory Klippsten, CEO at Swan Bitcoin, talks crypto regulation. Ross Gerber, President and Chief Executive Officer of Gerber Kawasaki Wealth and Investment Management on the latest with Tesla's stock winning streak. And we Drive to the Close with Carol Schleif, CIO at BMO Family Office. Hosts: Carol Massar and Matt Miller. Producer: Paul Brennan See omny.fm/listener for privacy information.

In this episode, Donald is joined by Kenysha Bartee, SVP, People & Culture at SoundExchange and Jamie Adasi, Head of Inclusion, Diversity, Equity & Allyship (IDEA) at Greenhouse to unpack the leading characteristics of people-first companies. You'll also learn about the importance of matching internal values with external values and how leading with curiosity can drive business outcomes.People-first companies prioritize their people and foster a culture of hiring. They understand that people are their most valuable asset, so they treat all their people practices — especially hiring — as strategic, rather than administrative, functions. On The Greenhouse podcast: People-first, join host Donald Knight, Chief People Officer at Greenhouse, as he sits down with individuals at innovative organizations to discover how these companies prioritize their people.Love The Greenhouse podcast: People-first? Find out how Greenhouse promotes inclusivity, creates a culture of belonging and embraces diverse perspectives in our product, our culture and our community by visiting us at greenhouse.io/belonging. Special thanks to our production partner, Wonder Media Network. Our producer is Brittany Martinez, and our supporting producer is Sara Schleede, with additional production assistance from Lila Watts. Our Greenhouse producer is Marnie Williams.

People-first companies prioritize their people and foster a culture of hiring. They understand that people are their most valuable asset, so they treat all their people practices – especially hiring – as strategic, rather than administrative, functions.Join host Donald Knight, Chief People Officer at Greenhouse, as he sits down with individuals at innovative organizations such as Kickstarter, WPP, SoundExchange and more to discover how these companies prioritize their people.In each episode, you'll discover why the most successful companies recognize diversity as the key to fostering creativity and improving business performance, as well as spurring innovation and creating positive social good. You'll also get practical, sustainable strategies you can use to start making your own company more people-first.Love The Greenhouse podcast: People-first? Find out how Greenhouse promotes inclusivity, creates a culture of belonging and embraces diverse perspectives in our product, our culture and our community by visiting us at greenhouse.io/belonging. Special thanks to our production partner, Wonder Media Network. Our producer is Brittany Martinez, and our supporting producer is Sara Schleede, with additional production assistance from Lila Watts. Our Greenhouse producer is Marnie Williams.

For merch, visit:
https://leadandbelegendary.storenvy.com “You Got It” https://bfan.link/you-got-it-1 In this episode, Nametag talks about Sound Exchange, and why it's beneficial for Recording Artists to sign up, and register their music to the platform. Twitter: @nametagalxndr
Instagram: @nametagalexander Follow Nametag Alexander on music platforms such as Apple Music, Spotify, Bandcamp, Youtube, and more. --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/leadandbelegendary/message

Are you missing out on checks/money? What is SoundExchange? --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/andrea-lashea/message Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/andrea-lashea/support

Struggling indie artist and math skeptic, (protagonist) takes the challenge to turn their streams into dollars (inciting action) through savvy marketing and multiple revenue streams (goal) in a quest to make the money they deserve (central conflict).I learned about making money as an indie artist from today's episode. As an artist, we must pay for tracks, studio time, and marketing, and even invest in paid performances. However, it is best to get paid from publishing royalties. Therefore, it is important to register with Ascap, Song Trust, and Sound Exchange for digital distribution, and to have a solid promotional plan. It is also important to utilize one's network and streams to find out where one's audience is in order to perform and create awareness. Through hustle, one can make money from mechanical royalties, streaming royalties, sales, and downloads. Additionally, one can make money from paid performances, digital streaming, digital downloads, and merchandise. Lastly, utilizing one's network"Don't depend solely on the distributor. Don't depend solely on streaming. You just put everything together and get that money from multiple revenue streams. Get to the bag - the possibilities are unlimited once you have everything set in place."In this episode, you will learn the following:1. How can indie artists make money off their music?2. How can streaming clicks be turned into dollars?3. What are the X factors in generating revenue as an indie artist?Resources:Other episodes you'll enjoy:Connect with me: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/therealrodesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/rodes live podcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/rodes huntTwitter: https://www.twitter.com/huntsidemusicLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/rodes huntWebsite: www.rodesonline.net/PodcastLoved this episode? Leave us a review and rating here: Apple Podcast, Spotify, IHeart Radio, Google Podcast and Good Pods --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/rodes-hunt/support

Are you curious about how data is used in the music industry to help musicians get paid? Look no further than this episode of our podcast.Today's guest Bryan Calhoun is a veteran in the industry and has made it his mission to advocate for artists and help them receive fair compensation. As the former VP of SoundExchange, Bryan has used data to distribute digital performance royalties for sound recordings and has a long track record of success.Bryan shares his insights on how data can be used to help musicians know their worth and get paid what they deserve. He also discusses the importance of stringent record-keeping and how it can benefit both artists and the industry as a whole. 00:00 - Intro01:45 - From start to SoundExchange: Bryan's path to the music industry12:00 - Bryan's journey to empowering artists through data17:08 - Exploring the data challenges and opportunities keeping Bryan awake at night24:07 - Dan's final thoughtsLINKS:Bryan Calhoun: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryancalhoun/Yat Labs: https://yativerse.y.at/SoundExchange: https://www.soundexchange.com/Dan Klein: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/dplkleinZühlke: https://www.zuehlke.com/enWelcome to Data Today with Dan Klein, a podcast from Zühlke. We're living in a world of opportunities. But to fully realise them, we have to reshape the way we innovate. We need to stop siloing data, ring-fencing knowledge, and thinking in traditional value chains. That's what this podcast is about. Every two weeks, we take a look at data outside the box. Join us to learn how inspiring individuals from diverse fields and industries are transforming the way they work with data to realise their greatest opportunities.Zühlke is a global innovation service provider. We turn big ideas into working solutions that deliver positive and sustainable value.

Welcome to this week's Indie Artist Music Hustle with Blonde Intelligence. Today I will speak on the value of SoundExchange and the information  that the artist will need to provide. I had a consultation with an artist that never submitted a spreadsheet on the account. Remember to Like, Share, and Subscribe.Support the showhttps://www.Blonde-Intelligence.comhttps://youtube.com/c/IndieArtistMusicHustlewithBlondeIntelligencehttps://chrt.fm/track/GF3B5B/dts.podtrac.com/redirect.mp3/feeds.myhost.com/my.mp3

Live Recorded Set from VirtualDJ Radio ClubZone

In this week's episode, join Michael Huppe, president and CEO of SoundExchange, and Allie Garfinkle, Senior Tech Reporter at Yahoo! Finance, for a fireside chat titled "Music Rights in the Metaverse'', live from the 4th Annual Music Tectonics Conference. Learn more about SoundExchange, the premier music tech organization on a mission to power the future of music. Discover how SoundExchange collects and distributes digital performance royalties on behalf of 570,000 music creators and growing. Find out how SoundExchange works to champion music creators in the continually evolving music industry landscape. What's next for the music industry? Find out on this week's episode.    The Music Tectonics podcast goes beneath the surface of the music industry to explore how technology is changing the way business gets done. Visit MusicTectonics.com to learn more, and find us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Let us know what you think!  

In today's episode, Rick talks with Michael Huppe from Soundexchange. There is a really good chance if you have released music that you might be owed certain royalties. https://www.soundexchange.com --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/music-industry-blueprint/message

Michael Huppe, CEO of SoundExchange, fell in love with IP and came into music through law. He had played keyboard and trombone as a young person and ended up at the Recording Industry Association of America, which led him to SoundExchange. He shares how SoundExchange is also a tech company, needing to help and represent its members with opportunities from new technologies, as well as providing a system's backbone for a growing streaming music industry.Guest: Mike Huppe, President and CEO, SoundExchangeMichael Huppe is the President and Chief Executive Officer of SoundExchange, where he champions creators and spearheads the use of technology, data, and advocacy to power the future of music. Whether he is leading efforts to launch new lines of business or advocating on the steps of Capitol Hill for creator-first legislation, every aspect of Michael's work is undertaken on behalf of SoundExchange's larger mission: to ensure that creators are compensated fairly, efficiently, and accurately for their work. To date, SoundExchange has distributed more than $9 billion in digital performance royalties to over half a million music creators.In addition, Michael is an adjunct professor at Georgetown Law School, a frequent contributor, published author, lecturer, and active community member. His opinions have been published in Variety, Rolling Stone, The Wall Street Journal, Music Business Worldwide, Billboard, and The Hill, among other outlets.What are you most passionate about with your current work? : "Being able to champion creators and helping to create a fairer, simpler, and more efficient music industry through innovative technology and data solutions."Mentioned Links:SoundExchange website: https://soundexchange.orgMike at SoundExchange: https://www.soundexchange.com/team/michael-huppe/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhuppe/ and https://www.linkedin.com/company/soundexchange/Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_HuppeFollow Michael on Twitter at @MikeHuppeAI article in Forbes, 12-12-22, “Artificial Intelligence Has Big Implications for Ownership in the Music Industry”, https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesbusinesscouncil/people/michaelhuppe/?sh=6dd42e5140b2

Episode 129 This week on the YMC podcast, your charming hosts Jay Gilbert and Mike Etchart discuss the following important music business stories and topics: "Everyone Hates Ticketmaster; Is Everyone Wrong?" (LA Times); "Calls To End Fees That Venues Charge Artists To Sell Merch Grow Louder" (Hypebot).  We also have interview clips from Jonny Kaps on +1 Records new partnership with Exceleration, and Michael Huppe, President and CEO of Sound Exchange.   Sunscribe to the newsletter! YourMorning.Coffee

Tune into The Weekly Rundown Radio Show as we prepare to say our Farewell. Our final broadcast will be December 23, 2022. We talk about this plus much more. IMPORTANT NOTICE!!! Music License By Live 365: 102.DLG Radio FM (Orlando) Full licensing coverage in the United States & Canada for SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC.

Tune into The Weekly Rundown Radio Show as we prepare to say our Farewell. Our final broadcast will be December 23, 2022. We talk about this plus much more. IMPORTANT NOTICE!!! Music License By Live 365: 102.DLG Radio FM (Orlando) Full licensing coverage in the United States & Canada for SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC.

This week: A birds-eye view of how podcasting is doing political ads this year, Spotify stock drops after announcing price increase, podcast companies discuss diversity at Advertising Week and the IAB Upfront, and a massive new Nielsen study shows podcast ads universally boost brand metrics. How podcast networks are making their own rules for political advertising—and how they differ from one another. Manuela: Midterm elections are approaching fast in the United States and that means political ads are on the rise. This Wednesday MarketingBrew's Alyssa Meyers published an article giving an overview of how different publishers and networks are handling the sensitive issue. “Political advertisers, including candidates and advocacy groups, have expressed interest in podcasts, according to several network execs, but not all networks want to play ball. And because the FCC doesn't regulate political ads in podcasting, the rules are left entirely up to platforms and networks.” iHeart, Wondery, and Vox declined to comment on Meyer's story, but those that did gave a wide variety of responses and opinions. Cadence13 has always been open to political ads, for instance. That said, the decision on whether or not to run any particular cause or campaign is left to the individual hosts of Cadence13 original podcasts. Spotify has flipped the switch to allow political ads again, having banned them after accusations of spreading disinformation during the 2020 presidential election. Curiously, both Apple Podcasts and Google Podcasts do not directly mention political advertising in their ad policies.  Due to government regulations, NPR cannot run political ads on terrestrial radio. CEO Gina Garrubbo told MarketingBrew NPR chooses not to run political ads on other platforms. Meyers continues: “Execs from other podcast networks told us they're starting to see increasing interest from political candidates and issue-based organizations, and though they're open to these opportunities, some don't have formal policies in place yet.” Shira Atkins, co-founder and CRO of Wonder Media Network, has taken the approach of allowing political ads but only as part of sponsored content or via baked-in host-read. She says the network has gotten pitches from PACs and candidates, but some have blanched at the idea of handing over creative control to a host instead of running an ad produced by the campaign.  “While political ad dollars aren't flooding the podcast space the way they are CTV, as the industry continues to grow, its political ad policies will likely continue to evolve and solidify, even if they differ across networks.”  If there's one clear consensus in the world of political advertising on podcasts, it's that there currently is no consensus.  Spotify Shares Slip 10% After CEO Says Price Hikes Coming Next Year  Shreya: On Wednesday Denny Jacob, writing for The Wall Street Journal and reposted to MarketWatch, published coverage of the Spotify's Tuesday earnings call. The results were a mixed bag for Spotify. “For its third quarter, Spotify reported 456 million monthly active users, up 20% from a year earlier and above the company's guidance. Paying subscribers, Spotify's most lucrative type of customer, climbed 13% to 195 million, also exceeding the company's expectations, thanks to promotions and household plans.” That said, Spotify also posted a Q3 loss of 195 million dollars. Spotify Premium has cost $9.99 since the service launched in 2011, but CEO Daniel Ek says that'll change some time next year. Spotify shares fell 10% after the announcement.  Podcast companies want to increase diverse content—but say they need better ad budgets to do so Manuela: Time for another article from MarketingBrew's Alyssa Meyers, this one published on Monday. In it, she covers conversations about the podcasting industry stemming from Advertising Week New York and the IAB Podcast Upfront last week.  “Part of the push for more diversity in podcasting is about getting creators from different backgrounds behind the mic in the first place. Conal Byrne, CEO of the iHeartMedia Digital Audio Group, said that podcasting, like other mediums, has a problem with representation, but that there are efforts underway to “course-correct.” Meyers cites the Edison Research's 2022 Infinite Dial to demonstrate that the average makeup of the regular US podcast listeners - 53% men and 59% white, has declined in recent years. She also notes the diverse makeup of podcast hosts is outpacing wider US population statistics, using statistics from The Creators, a study published by Edison Research and Sounds Profitable on June 28th.  Conversations about diversification also raise questions about brand safety.  “During Acast's panel, global head of ad innovation Elli Dimitroulakos said that brand-safety tech can be imperfect as well, because it “has been built by people with preconceived notions or biases.”  Dimitrioulakos provides the example of a retailer avoiding any instance of the word ‘bomb' in an attempt to distance themselves from any content to do with war, but in the process unrelated content like discussions of bomber jackets are caught in the crossfire.  “Or “if I say ‘a bomb lipstick,' I'm not talking about a weapon,” added Brooke DeVard Ozaydinli, host of the Naked Beauty podcast.” Tenderfoot TV co-founder and president Donald Albright says advertisers should be prepared to invest in the industry and support the diversity they want to see in the industry. “Black content is what creates the culture, all culture, so invest in that,” he said. “Put the money in it, and also pay a premium on it. Don't just pay the normal rate, pay extra, because you're reaching a very targeted market that's going to set the trends. That should be more valuable.” New massive Nielsen study finds podcast ads universally boost brand metrics, long ads work. Shreya: On Wednesday Gillian Follett, writing for AdAge, covered a new Nielsen study purported to be the ‘largest ever' study of podcast ads.  “The study, titled “Podcast Ad Effectiveness: Best Practices for Key Industries,” consolidates the findings of 610 separate studies conducted by Nielsen to measure how ads inserted into podcast episodes affected several performance metrics, including brand familiarity, brand affinity and brand awareness. It also measured consumers' intent to search for more information about the brand; purchase something from the brand; or recommend the brand to others.”  The individual studies cover a period of four years and involved over 147,000 respondents, leading to the claim this is the largest ever study of podcasting advertising effectiveness. This claim was made by study commissioner Magna, an investment and intelligence unit of IPG Mediabrands. One notable bit of data is the finding that ads longer than 35 seconds drive better results than shorter creatives. Magna executive VP and managing director of audience intelligence and strategy Brian Hughes suggests this is due in part to the tendency for longer creatives to be tailor-made for podcasting. Shorter ads have a higher likelihood of being repurposed from another medium - such as radio - while longer ads likely have been built with podcasting in mind.  “Additionally, podcast ads largely had the same impact whether they were read by the podcast host or they came from the brand. In fact, custom ads—which typically involve the host sharing their personal experience with the brand, according to Hughes—were generally less effective than those that didn't feature the podcast host. The report points out that “custom content may not be worth the price of creation given it lags in performance.”” It's also worth noting with both the results we've covered and the rest in the article that Nielsen's methodology actually suppresses positive results, in a way. Respondents aren't actually listeners of the podcasts they're being tested with. It then stands to reason that if a result comes back positive in this study, the results are likely even better with an individual podcast's actual audience.  Quick Hits Manuela: Finally, it's time for our semi-regular roundup of articles we've named Quick Hits. These are articles that didn't quite make the cut for today's episode, but are still worth including in your weekend reading. This week:  Pocket Casts Mobile Apps Are Now Open Source by Yael Rubinstein for Pocket Casts. This one does what it says on the tin: podcast listening service Pocket Casts announces their decision to make both the iOS and Android versions of their mobile apps open source. SoundExchange wins $9.7 million judgment from Slacker/LiveOne for unpaid music royalties by Kurt Hanson for RainNews. A brief rundown of the background behind the case and its outcome.  The Download is a production of Sounds Profitable. Today's episode was hosted by Shreya Sharma and Manuela Bedoya, and the script was written by Gavin Gaddis. Bryan Barletta and Tom Webster are the executive producers of The Download from Sounds Profitable.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week: A birds-eye view of how podcasting is doing political ads this year, Spotify stock drops after announcing price increase, podcast companies discuss diversity at Advertising Week and the IAB Upfront, and a massive new Nielsen study shows podcast ads universally boost brand metrics. How podcast networks are making their own rules for political advertising—and how they differ from one another. Manuela: Midterm elections are approaching fast in the United States and that means political ads are on the rise. This Wednesday MarketingBrew's Alyssa Meyers published an article giving an overview of how different publishers and networks are handling the sensitive issue. “Political advertisers, including candidates and advocacy groups, have expressed interest in podcasts, according to several network execs, but not all networks want to play ball. And because the FCC doesn't regulate political ads in podcasting, the rules are left entirely up to platforms and networks.” iHeart, Wondery, and Vox declined to comment on Meyer's story, but those that did gave a wide variety of responses and opinions. Cadence13 has always been open to political ads, for instance. That said, the decision on whether or not to run any particular cause or campaign is left to the individual hosts of Cadence13 original podcasts. Spotify has flipped the switch to allow political ads again, having banned them after accusations of spreading disinformation during the 2020 presidential election. Curiously, both Apple Podcasts and Google Podcasts do not directly mention political advertising in their ad policies.  Due to government regulations, NPR cannot run political ads on terrestrial radio. CEO Gina Garrubbo told MarketingBrew NPR chooses not to run political ads on other platforms. Meyers continues: “Execs from other podcast networks told us they're starting to see increasing interest from political candidates and issue-based organizations, and though they're open to these opportunities, some don't have formal policies in place yet.” Shira Atkins, co-founder and CRO of Wonder Media Network, has taken the approach of allowing political ads but only as part of sponsored content or via baked-in host-read. She says the network has gotten pitches from PACs and candidates, but some have blanched at the idea of handing over creative control to a host instead of running an ad produced by the campaign.  “While political ad dollars aren't flooding the podcast space the way they are CTV, as the industry continues to grow, its political ad policies will likely continue to evolve and solidify, even if they differ across networks.”  If there's one clear consensus in the world of political advertising on podcasts, it's that there currently is no consensus.  Spotify Shares Slip 10% After CEO Says Price Hikes Coming Next Year  Shreya: On Wednesday Denny Jacob, writing for The Wall Street Journal and reposted to MarketWatch, published coverage of the Spotify's Tuesday earnings call. The results were a mixed bag for Spotify. “For its third quarter, Spotify reported 456 million monthly active users, up 20% from a year earlier and above the company's guidance. Paying subscribers, Spotify's most lucrative type of customer, climbed 13% to 195 million, also exceeding the company's expectations, thanks to promotions and household plans.” That said, Spotify also posted a Q3 loss of 195 million dollars. Spotify Premium has cost $9.99 since the service launched in 2011, but CEO Daniel Ek says that'll change some time next year. Spotify shares fell 10% after the announcement.  Podcast companies want to increase diverse content—but say they need better ad budgets to do so Manuela: Time for another article from MarketingBrew's Alyssa Meyers, this one published on Monday. In it, she covers conversations about the podcasting industry stemming from Advertising Week New York and the IAB Podcast Upfront last week.  “Part of the push for more diversity in podcasting is about getting creators from different backgrounds behind the mic in the first place. Conal Byrne, CEO of the iHeartMedia Digital Audio Group, said that podcasting, like other mediums, has a problem with representation, but that there are efforts underway to “course-correct.” Meyers cites the Edison Research's 2022 Infinite Dial to demonstrate that the average makeup of the regular US podcast listeners - 53% men and 59% white, has declined in recent years. She also notes the diverse makeup of podcast hosts is outpacing wider US population statistics, using statistics from The Creators, a study published by Edison Research and Sounds Profitable on June 28th.  Conversations about diversification also raise questions about brand safety.  “During Acast's panel, global head of ad innovation Elli Dimitroulakos said that brand-safety tech can be imperfect as well, because it “has been built by people with preconceived notions or biases.”  Dimitrioulakos provides the example of a retailer avoiding any instance of the word ‘bomb' in an attempt to distance themselves from any content to do with war, but in the process unrelated content like discussions of bomber jackets are caught in the crossfire.  “Or “if I say ‘a bomb lipstick,' I'm not talking about a weapon,” added Brooke DeVard Ozaydinli, host of the Naked Beauty podcast.” Tenderfoot TV co-founder and president Donald Albright says advertisers should be prepared to invest in the industry and support the diversity they want to see in the industry. “Black content is what creates the culture, all culture, so invest in that,” he said. “Put the money in it, and also pay a premium on it. Don't just pay the normal rate, pay extra, because you're reaching a very targeted market that's going to set the trends. That should be more valuable.” New massive Nielsen study finds podcast ads universally boost brand metrics, long ads work. Shreya: On Wednesday Gillian Follett, writing for AdAge, covered a new Nielsen study purported to be the ‘largest ever' study of podcast ads.  “The study, titled “Podcast Ad Effectiveness: Best Practices for Key Industries,” consolidates the findings of 610 separate studies conducted by Nielsen to measure how ads inserted into podcast episodes affected several performance metrics, including brand familiarity, brand affinity and brand awareness. It also measured consumers' intent to search for more information about the brand; purchase something from the brand; or recommend the brand to others.”  The individual studies cover a period of four years and involved over 147,000 respondents, leading to the claim this is the largest ever study of podcasting advertising effectiveness. This claim was made by study commissioner Magna, an investment and intelligence unit of IPG Mediabrands. One notable bit of data is the finding that ads longer than 35 seconds drive better results than shorter creatives. Magna executive VP and managing director of audience intelligence and strategy Brian Hughes suggests this is due in part to the tendency for longer creatives to be tailor-made for podcasting. Shorter ads have a higher likelihood of being repurposed from another medium - such as radio - while longer ads likely have been built with podcasting in mind.  “Additionally, podcast ads largely had the same impact whether they were read by the podcast host or they came from the brand. In fact, custom ads—which typically involve the host sharing their personal experience with the brand, according to Hughes—were generally less effective than those that didn't feature the podcast host. The report points out that “custom content may not be worth the price of creation given it lags in performance.”” It's also worth noting with both the results we've covered and the rest in the article that Nielsen's methodology actually suppresses positive results, in a way. Respondents aren't actually listeners of the podcasts they're being tested with. It then stands to reason that if a result comes back positive in this study, the results are likely even better with an individual podcast's actual audience.  Quick Hits Manuela: Finally, it's time for our semi-regular roundup of articles we've named Quick Hits. These are articles that didn't quite make the cut for today's episode, but are still worth including in your weekend reading. This week:  Pocket Casts Mobile Apps Are Now Open Source by Yael Rubinstein for Pocket Casts. This one does what it says on the tin: podcast listening service Pocket Casts announces their decision to make both the iOS and Android versions of their mobile apps open source. SoundExchange wins $9.7 million judgment from Slacker/LiveOne for unpaid music royalties by Kurt Hanson for RainNews. A brief rundown of the background behind the case and its outcome.  The Download is a production of Sounds Profitable. Today's episode was hosted by Shreya Sharma and Manuela Bedoya, and the script was written by Gavin Gaddis. Bryan Barletta and Tom Webster are the executive producers of The Download from Sounds Profitable.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

[Enjoy our podcast this week that we share with our sister Maremel Network podcast, Creative Innovators.] Dick Huey claims that his career jumps have been "educated luck."  "Because they they are luck. And I'm, I'm I don't ever pretend that I have more information than everybody else does. But I think I'm good at identifying opportunity. So for me, this felt like opportunity. And I jumped at it. And then of course that launched a 25-year career in digital music."  And so Dick shares with us his 25-year career, ranging from teaching software applications to getting his first music management client to building his digital music chops at Beggars Group to building Toolshed.  He works now on his three-legged stool of interests: helping big picture enhancements of the music business, working with record companies, and engaging in ed tech and new technologies. Guest: Dick Huey, Founder/President, Toolshed Dick Huey moved to New York City in 1997 to work for independent label powerhouse the Beggars Group (XL Recordings, 4AD, Matador Records, Rough Trade. He created and staffed the group's digital media department as global head of digital in the early days of digital music, determined the group's strategic direction, and licensed its groundbreaking catalog of world-class independent music from artists like the Pixies, the Prodigy, Throwing Muses, and many others.   Huey launched his NY Hudson Valley-based digital strategy company Toolshed in 2002, long before remote work was in vogue. Toolshed offered an early bespoke label and artist digital marketing, direct music service licensing, and download hosting service that created groundbreaking digital campaigns for Arcade Fire, Sufjan Stevens, Indigo Girls, Ani DiFranco, and Aimee Mann amongst hundreds of hundreds of others. Labels and distributors including Matador Records, Beggars Group, The Orchard, Touch and Go, PIAS, Righteous Babe, and Merge Records were also clients. In 2010, Toolshed expanded into music rights acquisition for consumer brands, media, tech, sports, and entertainment companies. Spotify contracted with Huey to lead its US independent label licensing efforts prior to and during Spotify's US launch in 2011. Red Bull Music Radio, SoundExchange, 8tracks, Digital Rights Agency, Red Mountain Ski Resort, Jaxsta, and Tunecore are all past clients or advisory relationships.   Huey is currently a Business Development Consultant to AIMS API, an artificial intelligence music search platform based in the Czech Republic, as well as to Entertainment Intelligence, a high end music analytics platform for direct-license content owners. He is a music license consultant to the US independent record label Merge Records and to stealth cloud radio startup HijackRadio, and an advisor to Techstars accelerator winner Paperchain and Australian personal social media monetization platform OkTY.   Outside of the music industry, Huey is a senior teaching assistant at NYU Professor Scott Galloway's two-year old educational sprint startup Section4. Huey regularly TA's online classes of up to 200 students on the topics of Subscription strategy, Brand, Platform, Product, Data Analytics, Growth Innovation (brand association with physical stores), and Storytelling. Several of the classes Huey TA's are taught by Galloway himself.   He held a 9-year board seat at SoundExchange representing Matador Records. He is a past Executive Director and board chairman of the Future of Music Coalition, based in Washington DC. He was chairman of the new media committee at the American Association of Music (A2IM) from its earliest days, as well as a consultant to independent entity the Association of Independent Music (AIM).   Huey is a USSA-certified downhill ski racing coach and committed biker and mountain biker. He moved from the New York area to the Columbia River Gorge in 2021. He began his career as a musician, then a music manager, and signed and...

Michael Huppe, President and Chief Executive Officer of SoundExchange, discusses how his nonprofit is helping shape the future of the music industry.Hosts: Carol Massar and Tim Stenovec   Producer: Sara Livezey See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

RSVP for the Live Podcast Recording on October 6th at Samsung 837 in NYC. You will not want to miss the live podcast recording of the After a great deal of success (ranking in the top 2% of podcasts globally) and much demand, we're bringing the ¿Quién Tú Eres? podcast to a live audience. This platform was created to empower Latino/a/x communities to be their most authentic selves at work by redefining what professionalism means and looks like in the workplace. This unique live podcast experience will feature three dope professionals, who will explore the conflict that they have experienced between authenticity & "professionalism". This week's guest is Esther Mireya Tejeda, who is the CMO of Anywhere Real Estate Inc. She was actually recruited to build Anywhere Real Estate Inc.'s first enterprise-wide strategic marketing practice. Before this role, she has had various executive & leadership positions at SoundExchange & Entercom. Throughout her career, she's been recognized with various awards including...but not limited to the below. Women to Watch, PRWeek, 2019 | Top Women in PR, PR News, 2019 | Maverick of the Year, Stevies – Women in Business, 2019 | Communications Executive of the Year, Stevies – American Business, 2018 | Media Relations Professional of the Year --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/quientueres/support

Recording Artists Dr. Pastor P Archie & Dr. Pastor Bonjaretha Archie is a husband-and-wife independent gospel music duo group, and they are both Pastors/Founders of “Born Twice Street Ministries” and “Another Chance to Serve Street Ministries” here in Montgomery, Alabama. The Archie's have a radio show that broadcasts on Hallelujah 104.3 every Sunday at 7Pm and on Praise 96.5 Monday thru Friday with Inspirational Quotes. God called them both and ordained their marriage to get the glory through unification. The theme scripture for Born Twice Ministries comes from John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said to him, most assuredly I say to you; unless one is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.” Our Ministry is based on giving and serving the communities by showing love, feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and Introducing Jesus Christ. The Archie's are Kingdom Minded Soul Winners, Pastors, Speakers, Soloists, Song writers, Recording Artists, Liturgical Praise Dancers, and Performers. The Archie's are multitalented Artist that sings different types of genes such as Contemporary, Traditional and Urban Gospel with an R&B Jazzy sounds. Their inspirations are expressed to diverse groups by encouraging others that they can overcome obstacles, challenges, and setbacks in life no matter what they are going through. Our Music and Video is registered with BDS and Sound Exchange and is coded with ISRC & UPC Codes. The Archie's can also be followed on all social media and their music and be purchased from www.drpastorparchie.com. Dr. Pastor P. Archie https://www.drpastorparchie.com https://www.facebook.com/DrPastorPArchie https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWiKG8DtvrjcA8UrrD2SyKw https://www.instagram.com/drpastorp https://www.tiktok.com/@drpastorparchie https://twitter.com/pastorarchie1 Dr. Bonjaretha Carter Archie http://drbonjarethacarchie.com/ www.facebook.com/DrBonjaretha https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6pUGsbFh8mA6NLccaZ9hjQ https://www.instagram.com/drbonjarethacarchie/ https://www.tiktok.com/@drbonjarethacartera https://twitter.com/bonjarethaA Our music is available on all digital platforms. Our song Titled “Always On Time” is being played on Internet Radio Stations and has charted at #11 and Terrestrial Radio Stations in different States. Listed below are some of the Digital Platforms, Titles, ISRC and UPC. https://www.iheart.com/artist/dr-pastor-p-archie https://soundcloud.com/drpastorparchie https://open.spotify.com/artist/1SQ6pYgbnh3jPdeTim3iKV?si=nDDC9HkPSNCQArSEWNQnwA https://www.amazon.com/drpastorparchie https://music.apple.com/drpastorparchie --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/keith-paul6/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/keith-paul6/support

Welcome to WJBR INTERNET RADIO BROADCASTING FOR THE INQUISITIVE MIND AND THE SOPHISTICATED EAR Warning: You may hear explicit language, gospel music, house music, jazz, pop, soul music, Motown, alongside interviews with celebrities and up and coming artists, politicians or even your next door neighbor. Grown Folks only!!!!   Note: This Broadcast is licensed via Live 365 and covers listeners in the USA (through SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC) In Canada through (SOCAN and Re-Sound) and the UK through ( PPL and PRS for Music)  

In this episode of No Nonsense Music Marketing, we dive into if you need Soundexchange if you have Distrokid, Tunecore or ASCAP.Links from this episode:Omari Music Promotion: www.omarimc.com/promotion Tunecore Discount (Receive 20% off your first upload with our link): https://www.tunecore.com/?ref=omarimcpodcast&jt=omarimcpodcast Merch: https://musiquo.com/$OMARI Coin: https://rally.io/creator/OMARI/ Learn More About Our Incubator Program: https://www.omarimc.com/incubator/Submit Your Music To Omari MC Here:https://www.omarimc.com/submit-your-music/Other links mentioned in this episode:Learn More About Soundexchangehttps://www.soundexchange.com/

On this episode we talk with Josh Williams and dive into the following topics:  Do you perform all of the following for your song before submitting? Copyright, PRO or Songtrust, and SoundExchange? What does your time management while creating look like? Do you guys usually try to knock things out in one session w/breaks? Or come back based on time/when it's due? Are there any directories specifically accessible to producers? And how can we get hip hop or Piano type music? What is the best music production software to use for PC? Is sending a link to sync companies better than sending attachments? If so, why? What kind of link should you send? Follow Josh on IG: https://www.instagram.com/xj_will Follow Clint on IG: https://www.instagram.com/clintmusic Watch Clint on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/aclintjr Link To Resources: https://www.clintproductions.com/linkinbio Urban Mixing Made Simple - https://www.clintproductions.com/courses Road To 10 Placements - https://www.roadto10placements.com

Welcome to WJBR INTERNET RADIO BROADCASTING FOR THE INQUISITIVE MIND AND THE SOPHISTICATED EAR Warning: You may hear explicit language, gospel music, house music, jazz, pop, soul music, Motown, alongside interviews with celebrities and up and coming artists, politicians or even your next door neighbor. Grown Folks only!!!!   Note: This Broadcast is licensed via Live 365 and covers listeners in the USA (through SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC) In Canada through (SOCAN and Re-Sound) and the UK through ( PPL and PRS for Music)  

Welcome to WJBR INTERNET RADIO BROADCASTING FOR THE INQUISITIVE MIND AND THE SOPHISTICATED EAR Warning: You may hear explicit language, gospel music, house music, jazz, pop, soul music, Motown, alongside interviews with celebrities and up and coming artists, politicians or even your next door neighbor. Grown Folks only!!!!   Note: This Broadcast is licensed via Live 365 and covers listeners in the USA (through SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC) In Canada through (SOCAN and Re-Sound) and the UK through ( PPL and PRS for Music)  

Welcome to WJBR INTERNET RADIO BROADCASTING FOR THE INQUISITIVE MIND AND THE SOPHISTICATED EAR Warning: You may hear explicit language, gospel music, house music, jazz, pop, soul music, Motown, alongside interviews with celebrities and up and coming artists, politicians or even your next door neighbor. Grown Folks only!!!!   Note: This Broadcast is licensed via Live 365 and covers listeners in the USA (through SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC) In Canada through (SOCAN and Re-Sound) and the UK through ( PPL and PRS for Music)  

Welcome to WJBR INTERNET RADIO BROADCASTING FOR THE INQUISITIVE MIND AND THE SOPHISTICATED EAR Warning: You may hear explicit language, gospel music, house music, jazz, pop, soul music, Motown, alongside interviews with celebrities and up and coming artists, politicians or even your next door neighbor. Grown Folks only!!!!   Note: This Broadcast is licensed via Live 365 and covers listeners in the USA (through SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC) In Canada through (SOCAN and Re-Sound) and the UK through ( PPL and PRS for Music)  

Welcome to WJBR INTERNET RADIO BROADCASTING FOR THE INQUISITIVE MIND AND THE SOPHISTICATED EAR Warning: You may hear explicit language, gospel music, house music, jazz, pop, soul music, Motown, alongside interviews with celebrities and up and coming artists, politicians or even your next door neighbor. Grown Folks only!!!!   Note: This Broadcast is licensed via Live 365 and covers listeners in the USA (through SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC) In Canada through (SOCAN and Re-Sound) and the UK through ( PPL and PRS for Music)  

Welcome to WJBR INTERNET RADIO BROADCASTING FOR THE INQUISITIVE MIND AND THE SOPHISTICATED EAR Warning: You may hear explicit language, gospel music, house music, jazz, pop, soul music, Motown, alongside interviews with celebrities and up and coming artists, politicians or even your next door neighbor. Grown Folks only!!!!   Note: This Broadcast is licensed via Live 365 and covers listeners in the USA (through SoundExchange, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC) In Canada through (SOCAN and Re-Sound) and the UK through ( PPL and PRS for Music)  

Dog Pound were early 90's punks with a van-load of attitude from Passaic County, NJ. They toured the US from dive bars to legion halls to basements to pizza joints. Real quick, the connection we had wasn't great so there are some spots where it sounds like the audio jumps around. That's because there were random delays when Jeff was talking so some stories have weird transitions mid sentence. I contacted him through his FB account, asked him to chat, he said yes, and this is what we talk about: Not starting off punk rock Getting told to grow his hair What made them start putting on legion hall shows Forgetting the words while playing live Sound Exchange in Wayne, NJ Playing with Jawbox Having an edge as a band King Dickley Kool Getting soured by the scene change The Heroine story and shit on the walls stories And a ton more You can visit their Dog Pound bandcamp page to listen to their albums. You can also check out his songs on bandcamp.  Check out my new book The Couples' Checklist for my webcomic dailyBred. It's a great gift for Valentine's Day. If you market aggressively on Instagram Stories and want custom stickers then go here to get custom stickers or just email mike@drive80.com and I can send you samples. These are great for B2C companies and Realtors.

One of the most unique insights into the state of the music business today doesn't come from a record label exec. Not from an agent. Not from an artist. No, it comes from Scottish economist Will Page, who served that role for Spotify from 2012 to 2019 — a period of explosive growth for the streaming giant. But if you ask Page about streaming's future, he's not nearly as optimistic as the rest of the industry. “The party has to come to an end,” as he told me on this episode of Trapital.Page believes the music industry is transitioning from a “herbivore market” to a “carnivore” one. In other words, future growth will not come from brand-new customers — it'll come from the streaming services eating into each other's market share. Not only has subscriber counts possibly tapped out in Page's opinion, but streaming services have also put a ceiling on revenues by charging only $9.99, a price that hasn't budged in 20 years despite giant leaps in technology and music catalog size.  That against-the-grain prediction was one of many Will shared with me during our in-depth interview. But he has plenty more research- and experience-backed thoughts on touring, vinyl records, Web 3.0, and everything in between. Believe me, this is an interview you don't want to miss. Here's everything we covered: [0:00] The 3 R's in the business of music[3:15] Will's experience being a DJ[7:10] Lopsided Growth Of Music Streaming In Global Markets[8:59] Vinyl Records $1.5 Billion Recovery [13:18] Will's Bearish View About The Future Of Streaming[15:22] Ongoing Price War Between Streaming Services[22:59] The Changing Economics Of Music Touring [26:16] Performing At Festivals Vs. Tours [30:50] The Evolution Of Music Publishing[34:32] How Music Revenue Gets Distributed To Publishers[37:35] What Does A “Post-Spotify Economy” Look Like? [40:00] Will's Biggest Issues With Web3 [47:01] The Current Business Landscape Of Hip-Hop Listen to Will's mix right here: https://www.mixcloud.com/willpagesnc/we-aint-done-with-2021/Check out Will's Podcast, Bubble Trouble, where he breaks down how financial markets really work.Read Will's book, Tarzan Economics: Eight Principles for Pivoting Through Disruption.Listen: Apple Podcasts | Spotify | SoundCloud | Stitcher | Overcast | Amazon | Google Podcasts | Pocket Casts | RSSHost: Dan Runcie, @RuncieDan, trapital.coGuests: Will Page, @willpageauthor  Trapital is home for the business of hip-hop. Gain the latest insights from hip-hop's biggest players by reading Trapital's free weekly memo. _____TRANSCRIPT Will Page  00:00The best way I could do this is, I just talk about ratios. There are three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rates pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with the three R's.I'm gonna stick to ratios that is, if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization? So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1, you're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label. On YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents, 40 cents even because there's a sink right involved in those deals.Dan Runcie  00:46Hey, welcome to the Trapital Podcast. I'm your host and the founder of Trapital, Dan Runcie. This podcast is your place to gain insights from executives in music, media, entertainment, and more, who are taking hip hop culture to the next level. Today's guest is Will Page. He is the author of a book I cannot recommend enough. It's called Tarzan Economics. It's a guide to pivoting through disruption. This is a must-read if you're working in music, media, or entertainment. He is also a Visiting Fellow at the London School of Economics. He is the former Chief Economist at Spotify. So if you are interested in where the music industry is heading, where trends are going, this is the person to talk to. I was first put onto Will's work, he had released this white paper called Rockonomics. And it was a breakdown on how artists were using Twitch. I wrote about the report in Trapital because I was fascinated by it. And then he and I started talking from there. So it was only a matter of time before he came on the podcast. Will and I covered a bunch in this episode, we talked about the growth of streaming, we also talked about the growth of vinyl, and how that impacts the economics for a lot of artists and songwriters and publishers. We also talked about the price of streaming services. Most services are still $9.99 per month in the US. So we talked about why that is for music compared to video streaming, where Netflix Hulu, and Amazon have been increasing their prices for their respective services. We also talked about music publishing and why Will thinks that that catalog will continue to grow. We talked about live music and some of the potential constraints where now the next 24 months everyone wants to go on tour. But there's only so many venues and so much money that consumers have unwillingness to see live shows. So we've talked about that we talked about trends in hip hop, we'll have a bunch of exclusive numbers to share in this. And it was great to talk to him. It's been great to also Jessica T to learn from him. I honestly do believe that he's one of the sharpest minds in the music industry. And it was a pleasure to have him on this podcast. And I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Here's my chat with Will Page. Alright, today we got the one and only Will Page with us. He is well known in the music and media space as an economist, but he also spent a lot of time as a DJ. And I feel like that could be a good place for us to start the conversation. Will, talk to me about your DJ experience and what you've been doing there recently.Will Page  03:22Well, I've been DJing since the age of puberty. And it was all inspired by one lyric by a rapper called Mike G from The Jungle Brothers from an album called done by the forces of nature, where he dropped his library. He said it's about getting the music across the message across getting it across without crossing over. And unlike a 14-year-old kid when I hear this, and I just thought about those words, getting the music across without crossing over, how do you get out to an audience without diluting its integrity. I'm only 14 at the time. But that just resonated with me so strongly, and I just kind of dedicated a huge chunk of my life to trying to get the music across to an audience that would otherwise not have heard it. And I'm not diluting how it's been presented. That's what a DJ can do. You can thread songs together in a way that gets music across without its dilution without crossing it over.Dan Runcie  04:11And I feel like, for you, you've been able to carry that through, you had we're not done we are done with 2021 I was able to do a quick drop for that as well. So I think what's likely inspiring for a lot of folks is that there's so many people that have music backgrounds and passions early on, but there's a pause if they're not able to continue that but you've been able to keep this as part of your charity, which I think makes so much of what you do with this space authentic because you yourself are someone who releases music.Will Page  04:40Yeah, I mean, the mix cloud allowed me to scale what I was doing anyway, if I go back to university in the late 90s early noughties you'd make mixtapes mix cassettes. There's a great way to date girls, but you could only do maybe like 50 100 at tops. Mix cloud allows you to take what you do and scale it scale what you love to do and the mixer UK only gave us a drop for weighing in dama 2021. That makes us no-hit 27,000 on Mixcloud meaning have overtaken Erykah Badu one of your former guests, I believe. So, you know, to get to 20,000 unique people with a mix that you care a year crafting together, that means the world to me.Dan Runcie  05:15It's a lot. And that's powerful, too. I imagined that you're always not just finding the sounds that make the most vibe for the year. But you're also thinking about, okay, what is the way that things are moving, especially at the pandemic? I feel like it's such an interesting year to have something like that. Because I think for some people, it's a year that they want to remember a year, they don't want to remember as well. But I feel like you probably already have a few things lined up for the mix you'll do at the end of 2022.Will Page  05:45Yeah, I mean, you're always looking for the bands that are not on Spotify, not an Apple Music, I think about half of my mix this year, you will not find in a streaming service. And I'm proud of that you're going to Discogs to find those rare white label bootleg vinyls, you're going to the source to the artists who are in the studio recording. And to you know, profile bands like Sault, or London-based bands, S-A-U-L-T, on that mix. That meant the world because I've been watching them rise over the past few years now. And, you know, to this day, nobody has any idea what the band look like, who the band are made up of, you know, this, like punk music, they're rejecting the system, they're doing it completely separately. And they're, you know, not hitting millions of people on Spotify with their music, they've let the music do the talking. So I often think about mixed culture as a break it down this way, the internet can scale just about anything, but it can't scale intimacy, and a playlist or as an intimate, that's just a bunch of songs straddle together and work them through the shuffle play feature, but a mix, a DJ mix of 60 minutes seamless mix, where you have vocal drops, you have beat mixing, you have layering, all those techniques that you've honed over the years, that's intimate. So what I'm able to do with mixtape culture is to scale intimacy, and that goes out for every other DJ you've had on your show. That's what we're trying to do right.Dan Runcie  07:05For sure. And I feel like that's a good segue to chat a little bit more about some of the work you've done for a company that is very heavily focused on playlists, which is Spotify. And I think more broadly, looking at the streaming ever we're in right now, this is a great time to chat because we just saw the IFP results. And streaming is continuing to grow, as we've seen, but I feel like you've probably spotted a few interesting trends about where things are heading. And I think that's a question of art for a lot of people streaming continues to grow, but how far can it grow? What are we seeing in terms of differences within genres or regions? What are some of the things that stuck out to you?Will Page  07:43I'll give you a couple. The first one is the global business. Well, last time I looked at the United Nations, I think there's 208 countries in the world, the global yearbook that we're discussing here, has I think, 58. So we have to be careful what we define as global. I think Africa's clubbed together as one continent with a need to work on that. But I think the global business is growing, but it's also becoming more American. So if you go back to when Spotify launched, Americans made up 20 to 23% of the business round, about just over a fifth today, it's 37%. So we have seen the business grow and become more American. And that raises questions, economic questions, like globalization questions, should poor countries catch up with rich ones, a theory says yes, the reality often says no, so we're seeing this kind of lopsided growth where the business is growing, but it's growing in favor of an American market, the biggest country is growing at the fastest rates. That's a positive problem, but I just want to flag it, which is that's not how it was supposed to play out. And then the second thing I'd want to point to as well as just vinyl, this vinyl recovery is just Well, I don't know how much my bank balance is responsible for this vinyl recovery. But I'm telling you, is defying the laws of gravity. Now we're now looking at Vinyl being worth one and a half-billion dollars, which is more than it's been worth in the past 30 years. It's worth more than CDs, cassettes, and downloads the three formats that were supposed to declare that vinyl is dead, but there's two things you can kind of cut out the vinyl recovery, which I think will be of real interest to your audience. Firstly, on the consumer side, I saw a survey which suggested that the majority just over half of all vinyl buyers today don't own a record player. I mean, something's cooking here. So why are we buying it for now I'll extend that as well. The cost of wall frames to frame vinyl on your wall often costs more than the record itself. So I'm willing to pay more for vinyl to be called New framed on my wall than I am for the record. And by the way, I don't have a record player that a lot of people will take those bizarre boxes, but on the creator side, something else is interesting. It'll take a little bit of working through but if we think about the streaming model is monetizing consumption, that's what it does. So there's an album A 10 songs, three killer and seven filler songs and an album Let's say Dan runs, he wrote the three killer tracks, and we'll page the seven Duff filler tracks. On streaming, Dan might walk away with all the money, and I'll walk away with none. Because we're only streaming the killer tracks and nobody's touching the filler. As the album model kicks out from vinyl, I would get 70% of the cache. That's crazy because nobody knows what's being consumed. And it's a lot of cash by just kind of do some rough math, you have a million fans streaming your hip hop record on Spotify. And let's say they're streaming it 200 times in the month when the album drops, you only need 20,000 of them of that million to make the same amount of money from vinyl than you would do from streams, which is entirely plausible. But then how do you pay the copyright owners from those songs on an album is very different from how you pay them on a stream. If you go back to the late 70s. The one most successful records of all time was Saturday Night Fever, the BGS, and a bunch of other people. It's crazy to think that Ralph McDonald's Calypso struck his record there, which nobody has listened to, but the same royalty as staying alive by the BGS. Because it was a vinyl record. So to reiterate, on the consumer side, I don't know how many of these vinyl records are being played. And on the creative side, it raises questions about how these creators are going to get paid.Dan Runcie  11:16That's a good point. But that I don't think is being talked about as much about the vinyl search, because there's so much like wow, about just how much has been purchased. I think I haven't saw the stat that Adele's 30 albums sold 8000 cassettes or there's a self-titled stat about that. And I think the similar thing that you said lines up, I think those people actually still own a Walkman or whatever type of cassette player that they have. So I do think that that is something that probably there could be a deeper analysis on. Because a lot of the people that write the filler songs, how do they feel whether you're a songwriter, whether you know what's behind it, especially when you know that there's so much clearer path to be able to determine, Okay, this is going to be the lead single that this is what we're going to push most from this album, it really shifts the exhibit more to where things are going in terms of a single market and like the way that people have talked about pop music for a while now. Right. And I guess that brings me back to the streaming trends that you mentioned, overall, we're in this area, as you mentioned, streaming itself that US penetration has grown from 22%, I believe you said is now 30 to 3537, somewhere around there. But where do we go from here because as you've written before, the price of music streaming, at least the monthly subscription hasn't necessarily been increasing. The average revenue per user overall, because of the international growth is decreased. And you have plenty of people that are still trying to get their fair share of what they can. It's streaming. So it's in like 510 years from now, if you could see into the future. Where do you think streaming distribution is I think the good thing is that people have smartphones, and there's more and more growth from that perspective. So streaming is going to grow. But on the other hand, the economics of these things do have some theoretical point where we've maximized the global penetration of this. What do you think about where that is going?Will Page  13:17Let me unpack it in two different lanes. Firstly, I'll deal with the saturation point question which is, you know, how long can this party keep going for it's three o'clock in the morning, who's going to call time on it? And then secondly, I want to deal with the pricing point on its own lien as well. But on saturation point, you're now in a situation where I'd put it as in America, we've had herbivores we've had Spotify growing Apple growing, Amazon growing, YouTube growing, everybody's reporting growth, Pandora even is growing. What we're gonna see at some point soon is carnivores, which is Apple will grow by eating into Spotify as growth or YouTube will grow by eating into Amazon's growth. So the key question we got to ask is, when do we go from the herbivore market we're in today to a carnivore market of tomorrow, and output Spotify as your subscriber number right about 45 million, Apple at 49 million, you dump on top YouTube, Amazon Pandora, you're well past 110, 120 million. Now that's important because I reckon there's around about 110 million qualifying households in America that has at least one person who could pay for a streaming service. This is crucial, because if you look at what Apple one's bundle is doing $30 a month for news, music, television, gaming, fitness, and two terabytes of storage per six accountholder is a household proposition. They're saying to the home, I got you convenience. Everyone under this roof is covered with Apple products. So when you have 110 million households, and you have more than 110 million subscribers in the United States, then we're in a race to the finishing line before herbivores turn into carnivores. In oil. We have this expression called Peak Oil, which is we know that we've extracted more oil in the world and has left to extract an oil All that's left is going to be even more costly to get out of the ground. I think we're in peak subscriber territory where at some point soon we're going to start seeing growth happen through stealing other customers as opposed to finding your own. So I just want to put that warning flag out there just now we're partying like it's 1989 Fine, but at some point, the party has to come to an end and growth is going to come at the expense of other players that then flips Neil from the east side to the B side of this record, we flip it over to price. And then pricing debate is interesting. I published this work called MelB economics, which we can cite on your wonderful website there, which was to look at the 20-year history of the 19 price point. And it's crazy story back in the third of December 2001. Over 20 years ago today, Rhapsody got its license for 999 offerings which had 15,000 songs first point, the origins of 999. Bizarrely deep back to the blockbuster rental card, some cooked-up label executive would have said that it cost 999 to rent videos from blockbuster. That's what it should cost to rent music. Secondly, there was only 15,000 songs with limited use case there was no smartphone back then no apps, no algorithms, that was all a weird world into the future. So you just had 999 for 15,000 songs we're now checking in early April 2022. And it's still 999 in dollar and euro and Sterling. But we're offering 100 million songs. That's the crazy thing. So in the article MelB economics what I do is I, strip inflation out in the case of the UK 999 has fallen down to six pounds 30 pence. Remember, you know family plan makes music cheaper to have 2.3 people are paying 4099, that's six pounds, 50. There's way too many numbers in this conversation for capital. But still, we'll stick with it. Student plan makes it cheaper to sew music in real terms has fallen to six pounds 30 which is less than a medium glass of Malbec wine. So 175 milliliters of Malbec wine costs more than 100 million songs, which is available offline on-demand without adverts that for me is certified bonkers. I don't understand what we've done. We're offering more and more, and we're charging less and less. And you only have to leave the ears to the eyes on the video streaming to see what they're doing on the other side of the fence. Netflix has got me from 799 to 899 to 1299, to now 1499 In the space of 15 months, and I haven't blinked Disney plus, the reason I'm paying for 99 and Disney plus is because I paid 1999 to get Cruella live on-demand. So they're charging more and more, but only offering part of the world's repertoire set for eyeball content. We're charging less and less and offering more and more of the wells, your whole content says like two ships passing each other in the night. It's a very interesting dilemma.Dan Runcie  17:49It's intriguing because when you look at the way that video is structured, as you mentioned, you have all these price increases. And I think Netflix for some plans is you know, at 99 It's approaching that level. But in music, it's this thing where yeah, there's some price differences where I think I saw today that Amazon music is increasing $1 But that's from 799 for Prime subscribers to that being 899. So, Ross thatWill Page  18:17I wonder if like what caused that?Dan Runcie  18:21I mean, honestly, I feel like there's something here because when I think about this, I think about a few things, right? Obviously, you do have this fight where the artists want to get more and the labels want to get more, you know, not just for the artist, but for themselves. And obviously, Spotify wants to earn more logically you would think, Okay, if you increase the price, and people just understated the economics of what's likely, if Spotify increased up to 1299 a month for the standard base rate, how many folks would blink. But to your point earlier, I have to imagine that the fear is looking at the trends and where that penetration is, if they jump up to 39 or 1299, then they're going to lose those customers to the other streaming services that have been shoved there yet, because of that thought of, you know, shifting to that carnivore mentality of competing with each other. So because for roughly 80% of the content that they do offer, it is roughly the same between each of the services, it's in when's it to be more of a price war, then in video streaming, where most of them do have some differentiated contentWill Page  19:26100% And two things to hold on to a very eloquent point there. And firstly, let's just remind ourselves that Apple launched superior sound quality, you may remember the commercial of lossless audio, you buy your air pods, which cost two years of Apple Music or Spotify to put in your years and you get superior sound quality, the subtext underneath it said at no extra cost. That was the actual marketing message. So there again, we're improving the offer. We're supplying more, but we're charging less in real terms. And that's a really interesting kind of point can occur. into it. The second thing and we should get balanced into this discussion, because it's delicate is we have to remind ourselves that, you know, there's 120 million subscribers in America, there's still another 100 and 20 million to go. But we know they're not they're interested in paying for music because they haven't paid yet, the best way to attract them is not necessarily to raise price. So we got to remember that there's still no oil to extract, it's not going to be easy oil to extract, the best way to get to it might not be to raise the price. But there's a catch to this. I can remember, in the early noughties, right up to 2010 piracy, ripping the asset out of this business. And concert promoters were saying, We love piracy because the kids are getting music for free so they can pay more on concert tickets. I wonder if now they're saying we love Spotify because they don't raise prices, which means we can raise hours, this is not a discussion of how to rip off the customer. This is a discussion about value exchange. And I just wonder whether recorded music is leaving value on the table. That's the key point to hammer home.Dan Runcie  20:57That's a good point. And I think that also made me think too, could there be some notion of maintaining the perception of Spotify as something that still has high pricing power is still as high consumer surplus because then that helps the stock price. And then seeing that the major labels are all invested in Spotify itself. It's about like having that perception of you know, the future growth and whatever it is. So what you've just said made me think about that being a factor, potentially to the 100%.Will Page  21:27And of course, you got to distinguish the Spotify, Apple Music cost structure from that of the video streaming companies, in that they have a kind of variable costs, you double your business, you double your cost base, whereas Netflix, you jump up costs, and you have you jumped up your revenue, you raised me from 799 to 1499, the cost of that content was fixed. And I'm still consuming the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air on Netflix to this day. That is a fixed-cost deal that he did to get that content. And that's margin to Netflix. So you know, the cost structure matters in this one as well.Dan Runcie  21:59Definitely. And you mentioned like music there. And I think there's a lot to think about from that perspective. I feel like we're in this post-pandemic. I mean, we're still not out of it. But we're in this post-quarantine era, art more artists than ever are trying to tour and get out there try to capture what's there. But also from an economic perspective, from that most people are only going to go to a certain number of live events per year. And we have this 18 to 24-month run coming up where everyone wants to make up for what they couldn't do in the past two years. How will that shift not just who that goes on tour together? And then how they may split those profits, what the availability looks like. And if they're not able to do what they may have done on tour in the late 2010s. How does that affect future touring? I think that's a piece of it that, you know, we still haven't necessarily seen the impact of but it just feels inevitable based on where things are heading.Will Page  22:58You did absolutely know on touring. I was lucky and I got to do some great work on the UK live industry. And I can only speak for the UK here. I know a lot of your audience knew us, but I think these points will carry across. The first one was to work out how much is spent on concert tickets in Britain during the normal year of 2019. And the answer was 1.7 billion pounds. That's more than was spent on recorded music a lot more than was spent recorded music which makes sense, you know, you pay 120 pounds on your Spotify account, you're paying 240 pounds to go to Reading Festival for two days in a muddy field and reading costs more than 365 days of all the world's music. But what I noticed there was the industry is changing in its growth. I showed that between 2012 The year of the London Olympics, and 2019 the live music industry in this country had exploded and grow but it was lopsided. All the growth came from stadiums, festivals, and to a lesser extent arenas, the theaters, the 2000 3000 capacity theaters like the Fillmore West over where you are, they were getting crushed. They were actually shrinking in size. So we have this lopsided live music industry which is going right in the direction of the head as opposed to the long tail. The stadiums or festivals The arena is as opposed to the theater as the club's the university venues. And that's interesting because that's going to change the dynamics of how you make money from live. Do you go from doing your tour of an album to doing a tour of your festivals for that record? And what does that mean for the cost structure for the insurance and all those things that bands have to consider when you're hitting the road? I mean, credit to trap tool. You've had some great podcasts recently on this topic. But as there's a big rethink coming along in this live music market is not the same as we had back in 2019. It's changed fundamentally and it is the breadwinner for most artists' income I think it makes up about 70% of what an artist has to live for comes from the road that vanished. How do we get it back?Dan Runcie  24:49I feel like Cardi B has been a good case study on this specific point here, right. It's been four years now since she released an album and she's yet to go on a true proper tour in that time, that said she's done plenty of festivals where she served more on those festival guarantees that she liked what on tour. She's also done many private events where she's likely earned that same amount, if not more. So, there's a whole economic argument to be made. And I think there's also some risk involved, too, right? I think that festivals do give you the opportunity to get that nature back, you get the high number, the revenue that comes through, but maybe your fans will be a little bit more forgiving if you're set-piece at your festival isn't the most extravagant thing, especially if you're not the headliner at it. But on a tour, I think it changes it's a little bit more pressure. Everyone wants to see that Instagrammable or tick talkable moment to then sell future tickets, and just the production costs and everything with traveling. It still is something that is very worthwhile, but I think we've just started to see some of that segmentation there, especially for someone like her I would have to go residencies to I know she's done a few different things in Vegas here and there. But yes, I still yet to do that. 30-city worldwide tour?Will Page  26:12Yeah, I think you got to think of your head and your heart. Your head says like you point out the economics fevers, festivals, your back lines are your insurances cover travels already covered. I have numerous Hip Hop bands perform at festivals in Europe. And that's one of the big advantages. The costs are all taken care of by the festival. But your heart says what does that do to intimate relationships with your fans, right? You're staring at 50,000 Strangers in the muddy field. That's different from staring at 2000 friends in the Fillmore West. So the heading the horror is going to come into play here. What I would add, though, is that there are rumors I would say here in the UK, at least that the promoters are saying I'll pay you a ton of money to film at the festival to make sure that you don't go on tour. And that's an interesting situation. If you build one too many houses, you collapse the property market. If you have one too many tours or one too many festivals, you collapse like the music industry. So there's ways in which people are trying to restrain the market to festivals at the expense of the theaters that certainly is coming through in the data. We're seeing the theater business, take a kick in well, festivals go on a roll.Dan Runcie  27:12Yeah. Because I think about you look at the artists that are touring stadiums now whether it's your Taylor Swift or Beyonce is they wouldn't be able to do that if they didn't have the individual tours, that smaller venues when they were starting out being able to build that intimate fan base, like you said, like you get to that point, right. And I do think that as good as festivals can be it is much more of a lucrative cash grab that is I don't want to say necessarily short-term thinking. But I think you ideally want to have some type of balance there, right? Get the big bag that you can get from something else. It's almost no different than I think running a business right? Okay, sure. You may be able to do a speaking fee or do some type of you know, the thing here or there. But you can't do that all the time, especially if it's not an audience are tapped into. You still need to do some of the things that could set you up for the long game.Will Page  28:05Yeah, and there's an infographic that I'll share with you to pass on to your audience here. I wrote an article in The Economist called smells like Middle East spirit, as opposed to teen spirit and ice play on words had to Dave Grohl and Kurt Cobain, but what I was looking at was the average age of festival headliners over time. This is a doer pessimistic Scottish economist, this is what you do is your spare time. Okay. So in 92, and Radiohead did Glastonbury, the average age of a festival headliner was 2526 years old. And all these hot bands were coming through the Britpop era. You know, there was so much development of new talent by 2012. I think it got up to 58. And I got a lot of criticism for that article, but then Glastonbury that year had the who and Lionel Richie headlining, which I think was 70 and 73 years old, apart, and then you can see the conveyor belt problem, which is okay, it's a quick cash grab, it makes sense. But that's not the conveyor belt of how we develop talent for tomorrow. That's just how we cash in our chips at the casino today. So it does raise questions. And I'm not saying it's like the doomsday scenario here. But we just need a healthy balance of, you know, a seedbed for future growth. And then the big stage of exploiting that moment today, which could be the permanent stage at Glastonbury, the headlights siege up on a roof and mistakes. So I just think we're getting a little bit lopsided here. We're a bit short term system, how this business needs to developDan Runcie  29:25Agreed on that. Switching gears a bit. One thing that you wrote recently that stuck out to me you did this deep dive on music publishing, and I think this is another area that kind of has some of that short term, long term perspective on it, because you look at the people who get the share of the copyright pie, at least today. And from a music streaming perspective, a lot of that has been much more in the favor of the recorded side and then the people getting compensated on the recording side. But with that the songwriters and the PA brochures. A lot of them necessarily in that timeframe didn't get a lot of that. But I think in this wave now where we're seeing more catalog deals, and we're seeing people understand the value of that things may be starting to shift and there's likely other things as well. But what do you think about the way that the publishing side has been seen and what the future opportunities are for that side of the business?Will Page  30:23Well, the way that labels and publishing were taught to me in terms of what makes them distinct from one another goes back to my Aunt Doreen Lauder, who worked in the music business from 1959 at Decca Records right the way through to 2012. She went enzyme records with Nigel Grange loosens half brother, they were responsible for Sinead O'Connor who sold 11 million albums based on the prints cover. And she once said to me, Will, this is how the music industry works, the record label piece of your drugs and the publishing pays for your pension, just kind of as a nice succinct way of summarizing how the business works. That was then this is now clearly times have changed, I think. But it reminds us about you know what makes the business different. And that piece of work that you cite is something called global value of copyright, where I'm really keen to educate this industry, regardless of whether you're coming from a label perspective, a manager or an artist or songwriter, there's a C with a circle on it called copyright. We get that and it involves record labels. It involves SoundExchange involves artists involves ASCAP, BMI, GMR says EQ involves publishers, David Israeli, and the great folks at the NMPA, and Wall Street, but the whole thing together for me all this spaghetti and straightened out. And what I was able to show was that in 2020, copyright was worth 32 and a half-billion dollars, way bigger than what you've just heard I FPI, way bigger than what CS EC would say, this is the entire thing. And the split was about 65% labels 35% to the publishers. Now if you go way back to 2001 when we used to sell CDs by way of pallet and cocaine capitalism, these have no record labels. Back then, the split was much more in favor of labels no more than three quarters labels less than a quarter to the publishers. And what we've seen happen in the years in between is quite an interesting story. Labels went from boom time with CDs to bust with piracy, and now they're booming again with streaming. And the inverse the opposite happened publishers as labels went bust, ASCAP, BMI, kept on recording record-breaking collections. So you ever hear the toys analogy here of labels going really fast and falling off a cliff publishes as trundled along with record-breaking, not massive record-breaking collections, but he kept on growing their base. So the question he threw up is, what type of industry are we moving towards? Are we going back to our business model which paid labels over three quarters of the pie and publishers less than a quarter? And is that a good or a bad thing? Or in this post-Spotify economy where we're seeing companies like peloton Twitch, TikTok comes to the business is that gonna have a completely different balance. Now, why this matters to your audiences, not just on the creator side. But also on the investment side, you pointed out catalog valuations we can dig into that if you want. But just a high-level point is let's say that in a few year's time, I go into my Batcave again, calculate the global value of copyright, and instead of 32 and a half billion is 40 billion, I'll come on traps or make an exclusive announcement cooperate today is worth 40,000,000,007 and a half billion new dollars have come into this business, I want the audience to start thinking about who gets what share of that marginal new dollar, is that going to split publishing side? Or is that going to split the label side. And if you're investing in catalogs, be the master rights be the author rights that really matters. There's a huge educational drive here to understand the balance of this business of copyright.Dan Runcie  33:45So there's a few things you said there that I wanted to dig into, of course, for streaming Spotify and its competitors around 75% is going to the recorded side a quarter to publishing but from a breakdown what does that look like for the Tiktoks? The Roblox and the peloton what is that share of revenue from those plays look like?Will Page  34:08So the best way I could do this is if I just talk about ratios, there's three R's in this business, there's share of revenue, there's ratio, and as rights pool, they mean different things. Most experts get confused with three R's. I'm gonna stick to ratios that is if I give the label $1, how much do I give the publisher, the software, there's collective management organization. So we stick to the conventional streaming model today, I would say that you get the record label $1. You're giving the publishing side of the fence 24 cents, you know, a decent chunk of change, but still the poorer cousin of the record label on YouTube, I think it could be as high as 35 cents 40 cents even because there's a sync right involved in those deals. And then when you take that observation of imposing the sink right into a deal and you expand it to peloton or tic tock potentially even more, and then you can flip it and say well what happens in the future of TiC tock Because karaoke not saying it's gonna happen, but it's not implausible if that was the case that favors publishers even more. There's all these weird ways the business could develop, which could favor one side of the fence, the labels, and the artists continue getting three-quarters of the cash. On the other side of the fence publishers and songwriters start enforcing their rights and getting a more balanced share. And that's what we need to look out for when we're investing in corporates. That's what we need to look out for. If you're a singer and a songwriter. And you're trying to understand your royalty statements.Dan Runcie  35:27Like how much higher Do you think I mean, if you had to put a percentage on it for the Tiktoks or the pelletize? And I guess as well, you made me think up sync deals, right? Like for the folks that are selling, or their saw gets placed on one of these Hulu series or one of these HBO Max series? Like what is that ratio look like, you know, from a ballpark for those?Will Page  35:50So I think a 50-50 split would be the upper end of the goal. If a song is placed in a Hulu TV show or you know, an artist I've worked with for many years Eumir Deodato, Brazilian composer, his songs now in this famous EasyJet commercial over here in Europe, the artists and the publisher would see around a 5050 split of those revenues. Now would that happen in a world of streaming? Unlikely, but I think if you can get to a stage where you're giving the record label $1 and the publisher 50 cents as a ratio, and I got to repeat the word ratio here, you know, that's potentially achievable, that listen, post-Spotify economy, I don't think it's going to happen with the business we're looking at today. But I think that's a potential scenario for the business developing tomorrow. That's the thing is, if I can quote Ralph Simon are a longtime mentor to me, he always says, this industry is always about what's happening next. And then he goes on to say, it always has been as a great reminder of just your will restless souls in this business, we've achieved this amazing thing in the past 10 years, we're streaming got that bank there. What's coming next, who would have thought peloton would have had a music licensing department 18 months ago now they're like a top 10 account for major labels.Dan Runcie  36:59It's impressive. It really is. And I think it's a good reminder. Because anytime that you get a little bit too bullish and excited about what the current thing is, we always got to be thinking about what's next. And you mentioned a few times about a post-Spotify economy. And what does that look like? From your perspective, I think there's likely a number of things that we've already talked about with more of these other b2b platforms or with these other platforms, in general, having licensing deals, but what do you say? Or what do you think about post-Spotify economy? What comes to mind for you?Will Page  37:32Let me throw my fist your words, your joy, and try and knock you out for a second. We talked about price for a minute. And we talked about streaming. We haven't talked about gaming, but you noticed that Epic Games just acquired Bandcamp, I learned a fascinating stat about Bandcamp, which relates to my book tours and economics. There's a chapter in the book called Mako by, where I sat down with the management of the band Radiohead, we went through the entire in rainbow story for the first time ever a real global exclusive to explain how that deal worked out what they were really achieving when they did their voluntary Tip Jar model. And by the way, can I just put a shout out to one of your listeners, and fly from the Ben-Zion I bet remix of Radiohead have ever heard in my life is live. We're fishies Hip Hop version of the entire album. But Radiohead tested voluntary Tip Jar pricing. Now check this out. If you put your album out on Bandcamp could be a vinyl record. Remember, it's the people who are paying to stream who are also buying vinyl. So if you put a band and album out on Bandcamp, and you say a name, your own price, no minimum, and there's a guidance of 10 bucks, the average paid is 14 People go about 40% asking, and that could be for a super-rich blockbuster artists who try something out on Bandcamp there could be for some band who's broken Brooklyn Robin and cons together trying to make them breed people go 40% above asking when you say name your own price. And that's interesting for me, and there's a great academic paper by Francesca Cornelli from Duke University, she asked how should you price a museum and intuition says top-down mindset, the museum should set the price adults 10 bucks kids, five bucks pensioners, some type of discount arrangement, but she said no, let the visitors set the price because that way rich people will give you even more and poorer people can attend. And you'll see more cash overall. And I would like to see a little bit more of that experimentation around pricing compared to the past 20 years where we've had a ceiling on price where if you really love a band, all you can give a platform is 999 and not a penny more. I think that's we're suffocating love. We're putting a ceiling on love. We need to take that ceiling smash through it and let people express love through different means. But I love that Bandcamp story whatever you suggest I'll give you 40% above because it's our we're not dealing with commodity we're dealing with culture and that's what we got to remind ourselves.Dan Runcie  39:43It's like the Met model right where at least the last time I went it was like $20 was the recommendation but to your point it at least at some variable threshold, but the people a lot of the people that go there that have a lot of money end up giving much more so I hear you on that I, I noticed though, when you're talking and thinking about the future of this, I didn't hear many of the typical buzzwords and things that you hear about the music industry. Now whether it is NFTs or Web 3.0 or Metaverse, well, maybe to some extent with the Epic Games comparison, but what is your take on that piece of the puzzle, Spotify era.Will Page  40:20I need $1 and a glass every time I hear these words. So I'm just back from Austin, Texas, South by Southwest, a vague recollection of what happened over there. But I'm telling you, those words were bouncing around more than anything else. Here's a way of capturing of your listeners. This is the first time I've been to South by Southwest where nobody asked me what band did I see last night? Everybody asked me what VR headset that, I try this morning. And that's a sign of the times there and that is a sign of the times. Hey, did you try the Amaze VR headset? You know the make the stallion booty tour? Yeah, I tried that this morning, what Band-Aid nobody wanted to know about bands with pulses. Everybody wants to know about VR headsets. So we live in interesting times. And I think we're in a bit of bubble trouble here. I really do. I don't think this whole thing has been thought out correctly. Firstly, I'll give you an example of where I think the problems gone wrong. And secondly, I want to give you an example from history to show that we've been here before. So with NF T's, it is not. It's not an example of a woman who is happy to spend 1000s 10s of 1000s of dollars on a handbag because they can walk up and down Sixth Avenue and people will see that woman carrying that handbag, the signaling value isn't there. You know, I can buy a token that says I've seen the Mona Lisa on this day and put it in my locker. And if I show you my locker, you can see that I've seen the Mona Lisa that day, and you could buy a token and put it in your locker and you could show your friends that you've seen the Mona Lisa that day, but nobody can buy the Mona Lisa, we can just buy this NFT adaption of the Mona Lisa, but we can't share it across platforms. And that's where I'm struggling. That's where I'm struggling as irrational as that might be to spend 20 $30,000 on a handbag that makes you feel good having the world see you were fine. Do what you got to do. But with NF T's is not a cross-platform token. I'm worried that that's a problem with the model with the price of NF t's just very quickly, there is a term I want to introduce to your show called wash trades, which will meet a legal of 1936 which is basically if you're selling your house, you might employ an estate agent on the buyer side as well as the sell-side to cook up the price. And you can see if you try to do this in the stock market, you spend a lot of time and the chokey six years in jail for manipulating prices. Wash trades have been illegal since 1936. I think there's a problem with wash trades, manipulating the price of NF T's because they're unregulated. So I don't want to be the doer pessimistic, Scottish economist, in the room here pour cold water on this hype machine. But I have some issues with the product. And I have some issues with the price the product is docked to your locker and your locker only the price can be manipulated by ways which be declared illegal in financial markets. Conventional financial markets by wrapping that up. Here's my lesson from history. No Dan, in your record collection. Do you remember a rock band called kiss? Oh yeah. Were you a member of Kiss Army by any chance?Dan Runcie  43:08I was on the show.Will Page  43:11Right so if we go back to before I was born 1975, Kiss one of the biggest rock bands in America had something called Kiss Army for their super fans. So you could have kiss wallpaper because models. You could even have Kiss toilet paper. That was one of their top sellers. You could wipe your butt who key with Gene Simmons. That was one of their biggest sellers. And in 1975 They ran a competition on the competition was to say Hey fans, if you want to see a picture of the band with the makeup off there does famous black and white makeup. And we're going to have this competition you pay to enter and five lucky winners will be sent a photograph of the band for the makeup off. Now you're thinking NF TS kiss 1975 Where's he going? Follow me. Hysteria breaks out all these kiss fans in the kiss army want to see Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley with a makeup off. So crazy hyperemic competition the winners are announced the envelopes are sent out. There was five lucky winners get the envelope. They need scissors to open the envelope a pill it is black and white photograph of Kiss with makeup off. And after five seconds of exposure to natural light. The picture feeds genius, genius marketing incredible. But I'm struggling to see the difference between that and 1975 Kiss. You're competing for photographs, which feed in natural light and NFTs today so something I stress my big tours and economics is when you stare into disruption. It's really important to remind yourself that you've been here before and I think Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley have been here before.Dan Runcie  44:37It's an interesting take. And I do think about the first piece of what you're saying just in terms of something that stays in your wallet. And how do you share that elsewhere? I have seen some of the social platforms making it easier to be like oh hey, you could connect your Coinbase wallet to this whether it's Instagram or I think they're working on it now or to Twitter and you could make that your profile Make sure or you know the people that of course, you know will right click copy paste and save it put that as their profile pictures in different places. So I guess in their minds that's their version of being able to walk down fit that with the duty at Birkbeck, right. Will Page  45:15That's interesting. That to your point, that takes you back into handbag territory that corrects for the problem. Let's see if it goes but equally does the NFT lose its exclusivity when we do that as well. So it might work in the short term and might lead to the demise of NF T's over the long term because they're not that special. After all, they're just an icon for your profile picture. So is great to hear that there's that type of thinking going on that justifies my,  justifies my view.Dan Runcie  45:41Who knows? I mean, we're still early right but I do think that if I see your profile on social media, you turned into a board ape, we may have to have another podcast conversation I did.Will Page  45:55But I tell you asked him was obsessed with these topics. Even Austin, Texas Music conferences, get obsessed with the next big thing but this year, it was just bizarre how many references I heard to web three NF Ts, but if they can just give a quick shout out to the company amaze VR who are doing the mega stallion tour I watched make the stallion four times in Austin, Texas, I saw more VR of Nicholas Deleon and I saw of any live bear. But you know, they had the longest queues of the entire conference. If you judge success by queues demand exceeding supply, they won South by Southwest for the longest queues.Dan Runcie  46:27That's impressive. And of course, it makes a big star she's been doing a lot. I've heard a lot of good things from base VR too. I think that though, it'd be a great point to pivot and talk a little bit more about hip hop, the as we know, hip hop has been able to see a lot of its potential even more so. In the streaming era with us, given the popularity that's there. We've seen the numbers, we've seen the growth as well. And I know that you've studied this a lot, especially on the international perspective, just seeing how hip hop is growing in other countries. But I think some of that growth is looking different than what we may be used to seeing in the US. So what is your perspective right now on the state of hip hop with regards to streaming,Will Page  47:09you speaking about something that's close to my heart, but if I can start by saying, one thing that your podcast has done for me over the years, that reminds us of that famous quote, which has been reiterated by many rappers, which is rap is something you do hip hop is something you live, and we can forget that from time to time can drink a bit too much Kool-Aid and forget those golden words. Rap is something that you do. Hip hop is something that you live, you don't have a choice with hip hop, you live it, rap, I mean, you could play a jazz track, then you could do a rap track, you have a choice there, but hip hop is an eighth. And I want to pull those words up. Because when we talk about the genre of hip hop, I wonder whether it's really a bit of a square peg in a round hole here to take words, which means describe a lifestyle and their attitude or mentality, and then say that it's now a genre. Maybe rap should be the genre and hip hop should be the culture. So I just want to throw that out there for your listeners. And I'd love future guests to come on and pose them that question. If we're discussing the genre of hip hop, are we missing a trick that aside, some stuff which has been popping with hip hop mean, firstly, just the size of the audience in America, just north of 90 million people, there's 90 million regular listeners of hip hop that is phenomenal. If you think about how far the genre has come, the culture has come in 30-plus years. And secondly, who's out there in front. I mean, I would put YouTube as the number one venue for hip hop in the United States, Spotify, Apple, Amazon, they're all doing their things. But I think it's worth just reminding ourselves how important YouTube is to our culture. As opposed to Amazon Spotify. Apple is depressing your thumb on a piece of glass during a track. Repeat. Rap is something you do hip hop is something you live and you've had to Mercer, one of my longtime mentors on your show, just we'll back to that past podcast to get to where I'm coming from on that point. I think the interesting thing for me speaking as a non-American on a podcast with a large American audience to watch how it's growing out of the countries and one of the most interesting things for me was non-English speaking hip hop. Now, my sister who's a French translator, Annie, she introduced me to a rapper called MC solo way, way back in the day, back in the 90s. Even and I don't speak French, but the rap was just incredible, like the way that the French language flowed over a beat. He certainly won't recall any tempo. That was incredible. So, you know, I've always had an appreciation for how hip hop travels beyond its borders, playlists. Without Borders. Hip hop is without borders. So I just wanted to introduce your audience to a very interesting backstory in Holland and the Netherlands, where Spotify the first country, we scaled him outside of Norway and Sweden was the Netherlands. We got big there really quickly 2011, 2012 era and because we got big we could put some local foot soldiers on the ground to help with curation. And for the first time ever in the company's history. We started taking Hip Hop curation seriously outside of our core markets and because we're supplying curation that was met with demand and all of a sudden, we started seeing these Dutch language hip hop artists explode in Holland, Ronnie flex being a great example. I think around 2018, we ran the data. And we learned that Drake was the number one artist in the world on Spotify. Yet in Holland, he was an eighth biggest hip-hop artist. And the seven above him were Dutch rapping in a local language of Dutch. And that was just jaw-dropping to think about globalization, culture, back to the Jungle Brothers the lesson they taught me in 1989, getting the message across without crossing over how you can have local language, hip hop travel, like no other genre there is across the world. And you're seeing that happen in Germany, France, you're seeing it happen in Asia. And so it's important to apply a global lens to hip hop and ask what is it about this culture, which is leading it to travel in a way that other cultures are not traveling is that the expression is that the belief is that the conviction that comes through hip hop, and that's that there's a book on that topic, and then you'd be a perfect person to try and write it, I can get you an agent. And I'd be out of my depth, but just so really important see to so which is why is this culture traveling, like no other culture, I can see on a music platform.Dan Runcie  51:12It's fascinating. It's something I've thought about a lot. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I think about a rapper, like Devine from India, or I think about some of the artists from the Middle East as well. And I think there's similar trends there where hip hop is still the most dominant thing, but they're artists that are from their regions are the ones that are the most popular. And I think it stems back to thinking about the origins of hip hop and looking at where a lot of those other countries may be. Now you look at what the public enemy had done, or even look a bit earlier, like Grandmaster Flash and have done their share of realities of the environments that they're in their storytelling in a way that isn't being done by the mass media. And we're in an era now, you know, more than ever, we see everything happening in the world where, what a lot of the heads of states, or what a lot of the governments or main distribution, communication platforms in these countries are sharing isn't necessarily reflecting what's happening in those places. So because of that, you have people wanting to speak out on that. And I think that because people realizing what the public enemy was able to do in some of those other groups here by them saying, you know, we are the black CNN, we are the voice communicating that I think you saw a lot of that in these other countries. So even if it's different artists, you're seeing them share their version of what's happening on the ground. And I think, like anything else, the evolution of that continues to grow over time. It's been, it's been really fascinating to see that. And I think that is what, at least for me always makes it feel like this is the global language that keeps everyone connected in this space. Even if people are speaking clearly different languages from artists you don't know there's that common theme that you can tell even if you're watching a music video or getting a vibe of what they're doing. There's so many through lights there.Will Page  53:02Those comments are deeper than Loch Ness, so they can quickly top it up with two thoughts, just thinking aloud here. This is why I love about your podcast is with the way you take the conversation with just firstly, just a historical point. And as I mentioned with my book tours and economics, when you're staring at the disruption to remind yourself that you've been here before, when I hear stories about suppression by governments leading to a rise of hip hop as a culture rap as an art form. You just got to go back to 1877 New Orleans and remind yourselves how jazz came into being your Creole people. You know, when Jim Crow laws were reintroduced through the backdoor before since the African American community overnight, so you took classically trained middle-class Creole people brought into a culture which had the blues and African drumming, and out of that suppression came the creation that was jazz. And it's just I love when you alluded to government suppression resulting in creativity. It's just interesting to think how we keep on you know, history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes. And it's rhyming here when you start to think about the origins of jazz to what we're seeing happen with hip hop. And then the second thing I mentioned earlier that, you know, the internet can scale just about anything you want, but it can't scale intimacy. I wonder whether that's what hip hop is doing because it's, it's a postcard its storytelling is beginning with the word imagine and asking you to imagine the picture these words are creating, you know, that's doing something which I don't think your conventional verse-chorus, verse, chorus, rock or pop song is going to deliver. So the message getting the message across without coordinate crossing over. The message that we're getting across with hip hop is different from other forms of music. And that might explain a little bit about success at home and overseas that we've seen on streaming.Dan Runcie  54:43Definitely. Well, well, this is great. Thanks again for coming on. If you're listening, definitely make sure that you check out Tarzan economics. I can't recommend this book enough. I think that will is extremely sharp. And he's a thought leader in this space and it's been great to learn from him. So well. Thanks for coming on. And before we let you go, is there anything else that you want to plug in or let the travel audience know about?Will Page  55:07I have gotten no more travel plans to the States this year. But if they can just ask the audience to check out the mix on Mixcloud we ain't done with 2021 with a shout-out from Dan Runcie, himself, and many others, Mike G is on that mix Lord is on that mix. But I just hope that your audience because the show trapped will mean so much to me. I just hope the audience sees me as a DJ first and an economist a distant second that I can just land that point at the end of this podcast, I'd be happy.Dan Runcie  55:33That's a great note to end on. Well, thanks again.Will Page  55:36Thank you