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Rounding Up Season 2 | Episode 18 – Counting Collections Guest: Danielle Robinson and Melissa Hedges Mike Wallus: Earlier this season, we released an episode focused on the complex and interconnected set of concepts that students engage with as they learn to count. In this follow-up episode, we're going to examine a powerful routine called “counting collections.” We'll be talking with Danielle Robinson and Dr. Melissa Hedges from the Milwaukee Public Schools about counting collections and the impact that this routine can have on student thinking.  Mike: Well, welcome to the podcast, Danielle and Melissa. I can't tell you how excited I am to talk with y'all about the practice of counting collections.  Danielle Robinson and Melissa Hedges: Thanks for having us. Yes, we're so excited to be here. Mike: I want to start this conversation by acknowledging that the two of you are actually part of a larger team of educators who really took this work on counting collections. You introduced it in the Milwaukee Public Schools. And, Melissa, I think I'll start with you. Can you take a moment to recognize the collaborators who have been a part of this work? Melissa: Absolutely. In addition to Danielle and myself, we are fortunate to work with three other colleagues: Lakesha King, Krista Beal, and Claire Madden. All three are early childhood coaches that actively support this work as well. Mike: So, Danielle, I wonder for some folks if we can help them see this practice more clearly. Can you spend time unpacking, what does counting collections look like in a classroom? If I walked in, what are some of the things that I might see? Danielle: Yeah, I think what's really amazing about counting collections is there might be some different ways that you might see counting collections happening in the classroom. When you walk into a classroom, you might see some students all over. Maybe they're sitting at tables, maybe they're on the carpet. And what they're doing is they're actually counting a baggie of objects. And really their job is to answer this question, this very simple but complicated question of, “How many?” And they get to decide how they want to count. Not only do they get to pick what they want to count, but they also get to pick their strategy of how they actually want to count that collection. They can use different tools. They might be using bowls or plates. They might be using 10-frames. They might be using number paths. You might see kiddos who are counting by ones. Danielle: You might see kids who are making different groupings. At times, you might also see kiddos [who] are in stations, and you might see a small group where a teacher is doing counting collections with a few kiddos. You might see them working with partners. And I think the beautiful piece of this and the unique part of counting collections within Milwaukee Public Schools is that we've been able to actually pair the counting trajectory from Doug Clements and Julie Sarama with counting collections where teachers are able to do an interview with their students, really see where they're at in their counting so that the kids are counting a just right collection for them—something that's not too easy, something that's not too hard, but something that is available for them to really push them in their understanding of counting. So, you're going to see kids counting different sizes. And we always tell the teachers it's a really beautiful moment when you're looking across the classroom and as a teacher, you can actually step back and know that every one of your kids are getting what they need in that moment. Because I think oftentimes, we really don't ever get to feel like that, where we feel like, “Wow, all my kids are getting what they need right now, and I know that I am providing the scaffolds that they need.” Mike: So, I want to ask you a few follow-ups, if I might, Danielle. Danielle: Yeah, of course.  Mike: There's a bit of language that you used initially where I'm paraphrasing. And tell me where I get this wrong. You use the language “simple yet complicated,” I think. Am I hearing that right? Danielle: I did. I did, yeah. Mike: Tell me about that. Danielle: I think it's so interesting because a lot of times when we introduce this idea of counting collections with our teachers, they're like, “Wait a minute, so I'm supposed to give this baggie of a bunch of things to my students, and they just get to go decide how they want to count it?” And we're like, “Yeah, that is absolutely what we're asking you to do.” And they feel nervous because this idea of the kids, they're answering how many, but then there's all these beautiful pieces a part of it. Maybe kids are counting by ones, maybe they're deciding that they want to make groups, maybe they're working with a partner, maybe they're using tools. It's kind of opened up this really big, amazing idea of the simple question of how many. But there's just so many things that can happen with it. Mike: There's two words that kept just flashing in front of my eyes as I was listening to you talk. And the words were access and differentiation. And I think you didn't explicitly say those things, but they really jump out for me in the structure of the task and the way that a teacher could take it up. Can you talk about the way that you think this both creates access and also the places where you see there's possibility for differentiation? Danielle: For sure. I'm thinking about a couple classrooms that I was in this week and thinking about once we've done the counting trajectory interview with our kiddos, you might have little ones who are still really working with counting to 10. So, they have collections that they can choose that are just at that amount of about 10. We might have some kiddos who are really working kind of in that range of 20 to 40. And so, we have collections that children can choose from there. And we have collections all the way up to about 180 in some cases. So, we kind of have this really nice, natural scaffold within there where children are told, “Hey, you can go get this just right color for you.” We have red collections, blue collections, green and yellow. Within that also, the children get to decide how they want to count. Danielle: So, if they are still really working on that verbal count sequence, then we allow them to choose to count by ones. We have tools for them, like number paths to help do that. Maybe we've got our kiddos who are starting to really think about this idea of unitizing and making groups of 10s. So, then what they might do is they might take a 10-frame and they might fill their 10-frame and then actually pour that 10-frame into a bowl, so they know that that bowl now is a collection of 10. And so, it's this really nice idea of helping them really start to unitize and to make different groupings. And I think the other beautiful piece, too, is that you can also partner. Students can work together and actually talk about counting together. And we found that that really supports them, too, of just that collaboration piece, too. Mike: So, you kind of started poking around the question that I was going to ask Melissa.   Danielle and Melissa: ( laugh ) Mike: You said the word “unitizing,” which is the other thing that was really jumping out because I taught kindergarten and first grade for about eight years. And in my head, immediately all of the different trajectories that kids are on when it comes to counting, unitizing, combining … those things start to pop out. But, Melissa, I think what you would say is there is a lot of mathematics that we can build for kids beyond say K–2, and I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that. Melissa: Absolutely. So before I jump to our older kids, I'm just going to step back for a moment with our kindergarten, first- and second-graders. And even our younger ones. So, the mathematics that we know that they need to be able to count collections, that idea of cardinality, one-to-one correspondence, organization—Danielle did a beautiful job explaining how the kids are going to grab a bag, figure out how to count, it's up to them—as well as this idea of producing a set, thinking about how many, being able to name how many. The reason why I wanted to go back and touch on those is that we know that as children get older and they move into third, fourth, and fifth grade, those are understandings that they must carry with them. And sometimes those ideas aren't addressed well in our instructional materials. So, the idea of asking a first- and second-grader to learn how to construct a unit of 10 and know that 10 ones is one 10 is key, because when we look at where place value tends to fall apart in our upper grades. My experience has been it's fifth grade, where all of a sudden we're dealing with big numbers, we're moving into decimals, we're thinking about different size units, we've got fractions. There's all kinds of things happening.  Melissa: So, the idea of counting collections in the early elementary grades helps build kids' number sense, provides them with that confidence of magnitude of number. And then as they move into those either larger collections or different ways to count, we can make beautiful connections to larger place values. So, hundreds, thousands, ten thousands. Sometimes those collections will get big. All those early number relationships also build. So, those early number relationships, part-whole reasoning that numbers are composed and decomposed of parts. And then we've just seen lots really, really fun work about additive and multiplicative thinking. So, in a third-, fourth-, fifth-grade classroom, what I used to do is dump a cup full of lima beans in the middle of the table and say, “How many are there?” And there's a bunch there. So, they can count by ones. It's going to take a long time. And then once they start to figure out, “Oh wait, I can group these.” “Well, how many groups of five do you have?” And how we can extend to that from that additive thinking of five plus five plus five plus five to then thinking about and extending it to multiplicative thinking. So, I think the extensions are numerous.  Mike: There's a lot there that you said, and I think I wanted to ask a couple follow-ups. First thing that comes to mind is, we've been interviewing a guest for a different podcast … and this idea that unitizing is kind of a central theme that runs really all the way through elementary mathematics and certainly beyond that. But I really am struck by the way that this idea of unitizing and not only being able to unitize, but I think you can physically touch the units, and you can physically re-unitize when you pour those things into the cup. And it's giving kids a bit more space with the physical materials themselves before you step into something that might be more abstract. I'm wondering if that's something that you see as valuable for kids and maybe how you see that play out? Melissa: Yes, it's a great question. I will always say when we take a look at our standard base 10 blocks, “The person that really understands the construction of those base 10 blocks is likely the person [who] invented them.” They know that one little cube means one, and that all of a sudden these 10 cubes are fused together and we hold it up and we say, “Everybody, this is 10 ones. Repeat, one 10. What we find is that until kids have multiple experiences and opportunities over time to construct units beyond one, they really won't do it with deep understanding. And again, that's where we see it fall apart when they're in the fourth and fifth grade. And they're struggling just to kind of understand quantity and magnitude. So, the idea and the intentionality behind counting collections and the idea of unitizing is to give kids those opportunities that to be quite honest—and no disrespect to the hardworking curriculum writers out there—it is a tricky, tricky, tricky idea to develop in children through paper and pencil and workbook pages. Melissa: I think we have found over time that it's the importance of going, grabbing, counting, figuring it out. So, if my collection is bears, does that collection of 10 bears look the same as 10 little sharks look the same as 10 spiders? So, what is this idea of 10? And that they do it over and over and over and over again. And once they crack the code—that's the way I look at it—once our first- and second-graders crack the code of counting collections, they're like, “Oh, this is not hard at all.” And then they start to play with larger units. So, then they'll go, “Oh, wait, I can combine two groups of 10. I just found out that's 20. Can I make more 20s?” So, then we're thinking about counting not just by ones, not just by 10s, but by larger units. And I think that we've seen that pay off in so many tremendous ways. And certainly on the affective side, when kids understand what's happening, there's just this sense of joy and excitement and interest in the work that they do, and I actually think they see themselves learning. Mike: Danielle, do you want to jump in here?  Danielle: I think to echo that, I just recently was speaking with some teachers. And the principal was finally able to come and actually see counting collections happening. And what was so amazing is these were K–5 kiddos, 5-year-olds who were teaching the principal about what they were doing. This was that example where we want people to come in, and the idea is what are you learning? How do you know you've learned it, thinking about that work of Hattie? And these 5-year-olds were telling him exactly what they were learning and how they were learning it and talking about their strategies. And I just felt so proud of the K–5 teacher who shared that with me because her principal was blown away and was seeing just the beauty that comes from this routine. Mike: We did an episode earlier this year on place value, and the speaker did a really nice job of unpacking the ideas around it. I think what strikes me, and at this point I might be sounding a bit like a broken record, is the extent to which this practice makes place value feel real. These abstract ideas around unitizing. And I think, Melissa, I'm going back to something you said earlier where you're like, “The ability to do this in an abstract space where you potentially are relying on paper and pencil or even drawing, that's challenging.” Whereas this puts it in kids' hands, and you physically re-unitize something, which is such a massive deal. This idea that one 10 and 10 ones have the same value even though we're looking at them differently, simultaneously. That's such a big deal for kids, and it just really stands out for me as I hear you all talk. Melissa: I had the pleasure of working with a group of first-grade teachers the other day, and we were looking at student work for a simple task that the kids were asked to do. I think it was 24 plus seven, and so it was just a very quick PLC. Look at this work. Let's think about what they're doing. And many of the children had drawn what the teachers referred to as sticks and circles or sticks and dots. And I said, “Well, what do those sticks and dots mean?” Right? “Well, of course the stick is the 10 and the dot is the one.” And I said, “There's lots of this happening,” I said, “Let's pause for a minute and think, ‘To what degree do you think your children understand that that line means 10 and that dot means one? And that there's some kind of a connection, meaningful connection for them just in that drawing.'” It got kind of quiet, and they're like, “Well, yep, you're right. You're right. They probably don't understand what that is.” And then one of the teachers very beautifully said, “This is where I see counting collections helping.” It was fantastic. Mike: Danielle, I want to shift and ask you a little bit about representation. Just talk a bit about the role of representing the collection once the counting process and that work has happened. What do you all ask kids to do in terms of representation and can you talk a little bit about the value of that? Danielle: Right, absolutely. I think one thing that as we continue to go through in thinking about this routine and the importance of really helping our students make sense and count meaningfully, I think we will always go back to our math teaching framework that's been laid out for us through “Taking Action,” “Principles to Action,” “Catalyzing Change.” And really thinking about the power of using multiple representations. And how, just like you said, we want our students to be able to be physically unitizing, so we have that aspect of working with our actual collections. And then how do we help our students understand that “You have counted your collection. Now what I want you to do is, I want you to actually visually represent this. I want you to draw how you counted.” And so, what we talk about with the kids is, “Hey, how you have counted. If you have counted by ones, I should be able to see that on your paper. I should be able to look at your paper, not see your collection and know exactly how you counted. If you counted by tens, I should be able to see, ‘Oh my gosh, look, that's their bowl. I see their bowls, I see their plates, I see their tens inside of there.'”  Danielle: And to really help them make those connections moving back and forth between those representations. And I think that's also that piece, too, for them that then they can really hang their hat on. “This is how I counted. I can draw a picture of this. I can talk about my strategy. I can share with my friends in my classroom.” And then that's how we like to close with our counting collections routine is really going through and picking a piece of student work and really highlighting a student's particular strategy. Or even just highlighting several and being like, “Look at all this work they did today. Look at all of this mathematical thinking.” So, I think it's a really important and powerful piece, especially with our first- and second-graders, too. We really bring in this idea of equations, too. So, this idea of, “If I've counted 73, and I've got my seven groups of 10, I should have 10 plus 10 plus 10, right? All the way to 70. And then adding my three.” So, I think it's just a continuous idea of having our kids really developing that strong understanding of meaningful counting, diving into place value. Mike: I'm really struck by the way that you described the protocol where you said you're asking kids to really clearly make sure that what they're doing aligns with their drawing. The other piece about that is it feels like one, that sets kids up to be able to share their thinking in a way where they've got a scaffold that they've created for themself. The other thing that it really makes me think about is how if I'm a teacher and I'm looking at student work, I can really use that to position that student's idea as valuable. Or position that student's thinking as something that's important for other people to notice or attend to. So, you could use this to really raise a student's ideas status or raise the student status as well. Does that actually play out in a reality? Danielle: It does actually. So, a couple of times what I will do is I will go into a classroom. And oftentimes it can be kind of a parent for which students may just not have the strongest mathematical identity or may not feel that they have a lot of math agency in the space. And so, one thing that I will really intentionally do and work with the teacher to do is, “You know what? We are going to share that little one's work today. We're going to share that work because this is an opportunity to really position that child as a mathematician and to position that child as someone who has something to offer. And the fact that they were able to do this really hard work.” So, that is something that is very near and dear to us to really help our teachers think of these different ways to ensure that this is a routine that is for all of our children, for each and every child that is in that space. So, that is absolutely something that we find power in and seek to help our teachers find as well. Mike: Well, I would love for each of you to just weigh in on this next question. What has really come to mind is how different this experience of mathematics is from what a lot of adults and unfortunately what a lot of kids might experience in elementary school. I'm wondering if both of you would talk a bit about what does this look like in classrooms? How does this impact the lived experience of kids and their math identities? Can you just talk a little bit about that? Melissa: I can start. This is Melissa. So, we have four beliefs on our little math team that we anchor our work around every single day. And we believe that mathematics should be humanizing, healing, liberating and joyful. And so, we talk a lot about when you walk into a classroom, how do you know that mathematics instruction is humanizing, which means our children are placed at the center of this work? It's liberating. They see themselves in it. They're able to do it. It's healing. Healing for the teacher as well as for the student. And healing in that the student sees themselves as capable and able to do this, and then joyful that it's just fun and interesting and engaging. I think, over time, what we've seen is it helps us see those four beliefs come to life in every single classroom that's doing it. When that activity is underway and children are engaged and interested, there's a beautiful hum that settles over the room. And sometimes you have to remind the teacher step back, take a look at what is happening. Melissa: Those guys are all engaged. They're all interested. They're all doing work that matters to them because it's their work, it's their creation. It's not a workbook page, it's not a fill in the blank. It's not a do what I do. It's, you know what? “We have faith in you. We believe that you can do this,” and they show us time and time again that they can.  Danielle: I'll continue to echo that. Where for Milwaukee Public Schools and in the work that we are seeking to do is really creating these really transformative math spaces for, in particular, our Black and brown children. And really just making sure that they are seeing themselves as mathematicians, that they see themselves within this work, and that they are able to share their thinking and have their brilliance on display. And also, to work through the mathematical processes, too, right? This routine allows you to make mistakes and try a new strategy.  Danielle: I had this one little guy a couple months ago, he was working in a pretty large collection, and I walked by him and he was making groups of two, and I was like, “Oh, what are you working on?” And he's like, “I'm making groups of two.” And I thought to myself, I was like, “Oh boy, that's going to take him a long time” cause they had a really big collection. And I kind of came back around and he had changed it and was making groups of 10. So, it really creates a space where they start to calibrate and they are able to engage in that agency for themselves. I think the last piece I'd like to add is to really come to it from the teacher side as well … is that what Melissa spoke about was those four beliefs. And I think what we've also found is that county collections has been really healing for our teachers, too. We've had teachers who have actually told us that this helped me stay in teaching. I found a passion for mathematics again that I thought I'd lost. And I think that's another piece that really keeps us going is seeing not only is this transformative for our kids, cause they deserve the best, but it's also been really transformative for our teachers as well to see that they can teach math in a different way.  Mike: Absolutely, and I think you really got to this next transition point that I had in mind when I was thinking about this podcast, which is, listening to the two of you, it's clear that this is an experience that can be transformative mathematically and in terms of what a child or even a teacher's lived experience with mathematics is. Can you talk a little bit about what might be some very first steps that educators might take to get started with this? Danielle: Absolutely. I think one thing, as Melissa and I were kind of thinking about this, is someone who is like, “Oh my gosh, I really want to try this.” I think the first piece is to really take stock of your kiddos. If you're interested in diving into the research of Clements and Sarama and working with the county trajectory, we would love for you to Google that and go to learningtrajectories.org. But I think the other piece is to even just do a short little interview with your kids. Ask each of your little ones, “Count as high as you can for me and jot down what you're noticing.” Give them a collection of 10 of something. It could be counters, it could be pennies. See how they count that group of 10. Are they able to have that one-to-one? Do they have that verbal count sequence? Do they have that cardinality? Can they tell you that there is 10 if you ask them again, “How many?”? Danielle: If they can do that, then go ahead and give them 31. Give them 31 of something. Have them count and kind of just see the range of kiddos that you have and really see where is that little challenge I might want to give them. I think another really nice piece is once you dive into this work, you are never going to look at the dollar section different. You are always just start gathering things like pattern blocks. I started with noodles. That is how I started counting collections in my classroom. I used a bunch of erasers that I left over from my prize box. I use noodles, I use beads, bobby pins, rocks, twigs. I mean, start kind of just collecting. It doesn't have to be something that you spend your money on. This can be something that you already use, things that you have. I think that's one way that you can kind of get started. Then also, procedures, procedures, procedures, like go slow to go fast. Once you've got your collections, really teach your kids how to respect those collections. Anchor charts are huge. We always say, when I start this with 4-year-olds, our first lesson is, “This is how we open the bag today. This is how we take our collections out.” So, we always recommend go slow to go fast, really help the kids understand how to take care of the collections, and then they'll fly from there.  Mike: So, Melissa, I think this is part two of that question, which is, when you think about the kinds of things that helped you start this work and sustain this work in the Milwaukee Public Schools, do you have any recommendations that you think might help other folks? Melissa: Yeah. My first entry point into learning about counting collections other than through an incredibly valued colleague [who] learned about it at a conference, was to venture into the TED. I think it's TED, the teacher resource site, and that was where I found some initial resources around how do we do this? We were actually getting ready to teach a course that at the time Danielle was going to be a student in, and we knew that we wanted to do this thing called counting collection. So, it's like, “Well, let's get our act together on this.” So, we spent a lot of time looking at that. There's some lovely resources in there. And since the explosion of the importance of early mathematics has happened in American mathematical culture, which I think is fantastic, wonderful sites have come up. One of our favorites that we were talking about is Dreme. D-R-E-M-E, the Dreme website. Fantastic resources. Melissa: The other one Danielle mentioned earlier, it's just learningtrajectories.org. That's the Clements and Sarama research, which, 15 years ago, we were charged as math educators to figure out how to get that into the hands of teachers, and so that's one of the ways that they've done that. A couple of books that come to mind is the [“Young Children's Mathematics: Cognitively Guided Instruction in Early Childhood Education”]. Fantastic. If you don't have it and you're a preschool teacher and you're interested in math, get it. And then of course, the “Choral Counting & Counting Collections” book by Franke, Kazemi, Turrou. Yeah, so I think those are some of the big ones. If you want just kind of snippets of where to go, go to the Dreme, D-R-E-M-E, and you'll get some lovely, lovely hits. There's some very nice videos. Yeah, just watch a kid count ( laughs ). Mike: I think that's a great place to stop. I can't thank you two enough for joining us. It has really been a pleasure talking with both of you. Danielle: Thank you so much.  Melissa: Thanks for your interest in our work. We really appreciate it. Mike: With the close of this episode, we are at the end of season two for Rounding Up, and I want to just thank everyone who's been listening for your support, for the ways that you're taking these ideas up in your own classrooms and schools. We'll be taking the summer off to connect with new speakers, and we'll be back with season three this fall. In the meantime, if you have topics or ideas that you'd like for us to talk about, let us know. You can reach out to us at mikew@mathlearningcenter.org. What are some things you'd like us to talk about in the coming year? Have a great summer. We'll see you all in the fall.  Mike: This podcast is brought to you by The Math Learning Center and the Maier Math Foundation, dedicated to inspiring and enabling all individuals to discover and develop their mathematical confidence and ability. © 2024 The Math Learning Center | www.mathlearningcenter.org

Danielle Duboise, the co-founder of Sakara Life, has changed millions of lives through her advocacy for wellness and nourishment both of the body and the soul. Danielle is also an HBAC mama and shares with us the valuable lessons she has learned from both of her births about the mother-baby connection, surrendering, and the true meaning of an empowered birth. Danielle and Meagan have just the sweetest conversation that we know will leave you feeling inspired and uplifted. Danielle encourages birthing women especially to care for themselves on the deepest levels. Her words align so perfectly with all of the things that are important to us at The VBAC Link. Meagan had chills throughout the entire episode as Danielle spoke and we know you will too!Sakara Life WebsiteDanielle's PodcastEat Clean, Play DirtySpirit Babies BookNeeded WebsiteHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsFull Transcript under Episode Details 03:51 Sharing your birth plans with others9:13 Danielle's first pregnancy with vasa previa11:29 A humbling birth experience14:09 Going into labor17:06 Danielle's C-section23:31 Connecting with your baby32:26 Surrendering36:06 Choices in birth39:14 The ripple effect of birth42:34 Ways to release fear53:02 Which risks are you willing to take?56:07 Nutrition and nourishmentMeagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have an amazing guest for you today. Her name is Danielle and she is the co-founder of Sakara Life. It is a wellness company providing the tools to achieve optimal health and vitality. If you haven't caught on already listening to our Needed ads and other episodes, health is so important, and optimal health and getting the nutrients and the things that you need in your life is so important in how we handle life. She is a true pioneer in the health industry and launched the brand in 2012 with her best friend, Whitney. Creating their unique nutrition philosophy which merges modern science with ancient healing wisdom. Since its conception, Sakara has transformed millions of lives through its signature program, functional products, and supplements. Leading the global movement as an advocate for plants and medicine, Danielle became a nationally bestselling author with Sakara's debut cookbook which is called Eat Clean, Play Dirty, and is the co-host of the wildly popular, which I also am obsessed with, Sakara Life podcast. A certified holistic health coach, nutritionist, and expert in plant-based living and the microbiome, Danielle is currently pursuing her Master of Science in human nutrition and functional medicine. You can continue to see both personal and professional features of Danielle in things like Vogue, New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and the Couverture– I think is how I say it- and Goop. She was born and raised in Arizona and Danielle is true to her Sedona roots while living in New York City with her husband, daughter, and son. She is joining us today to share with you her journey. She had a C-section and then went on to have an HBAC as well as giving us some more of her amazing wisdom. 03:51 Sharing your birth plans with othersMeagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have an amazing guest today. Her name is Danielle. And did I say your last name? Is it Duboise? Danielle: It's Duboise. I think technically, Duboise is maybe proper, but we've always said Duboise. Meagan: Duboise. That sounds– I always sat it Duboise in my head because I think I just read it and don't– anyway. Welcome to the show. Danielle: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Meagan: Oh my gosh. I'm so excited. So so excited. Okay, we were talking a little bit before about HBAC, home birth after Cesarean, so she of course is going to share her Cesarean and her HBAC, but we were talking about how it's something that happens obviously but a lot of people don't talk about their plans to do it. They don't want to share it with people, so we will get into that but I'm curious how you felt about it when you were doing it. When I was pregnant and I had my two C-sections, I didn't want to tell anyone that I was planning on going out of the hospital because I didn't want the negative. Danielle: Yeah, I think there are layers. It's probably multi-faceted. Certainly, when you are pregnant and about to give birth, you have to be very protective of your space. I think people can't really control their fear. It incites fear in people who aren't even having children at that moment. It's crazy how much fear it brings up when you say you're going to have a home birth. When I was pregnant with my first, I was planning on a home birth and then I could get into the details of why I risked out of a home birth, etc., but before I risked out, I told a dear friend. It was a couple and they were pregnant with their second. I said, “Yeah. We are thinking about a home birth.” I don't think I said home birth. I said midwife and then later it came out it was a home birth and his response was, “You know your baby could die, right?” Meagan: Right? Danielle: I was 8 months pregnant. I was so emotional. Normally, it wouldn't have bothered me because I think he learned to put up barriers and that was the fear he was putting on me, but it was such an important reminder of how much you have to protect your space. I think every mother, mother-to-be, parent, and parent-to-be gets to define how they protect their space but I think one of the ways we do it is we don't talk about how we are going to birth. Meagan: Yeah. It sucks. We shouldn't have to hide how we want to birth especially if we are making that decision confidently. Danielle: Yeah. I think even after you give birth, it's still something that I shout from the rooftops because now, I think it has a way, same with prolonged breastfeeding, of making other mothers feel less than when it's just my story. It doesn't mean it's the best way to breastfeed. It doesn't mean it's the best way to birth. It's what worked for me. But I think inherent in the complexities of our birthing system, of our culture, the demands on women, me talking about a home birth might make another woman feel like she couldn't do it or didn't do it, so I'm careful about how I talk about it in the world too balancing both I want to empower women who want to make that choice and also empower women who don't want to choose a home birth. Meagan: Right. That's what we do here at The VBAC Link. We empower people who want to have a VBAC and women who were like, “This is what I want. I want this.” But then also, we empower those who are unsure and help them find what's right for them by also not judging anyone for just scheduling a C-section. Danielle: I think the most important thing and what I want for all birthing bodies is just an empowered birth. You get to define it, but inherent and empowered birth is you get to decide. You are in the driver's seat. You are in control. You feel supported. You feel safe. You can define what are all of the things that make you feel that way, but the point is that you get to decide. It's very easy to be a victim to the medical system and I'm careful to use that word, but I really think the way most of the medical system is set up is you can feel very bullied in it not even just in birth. If someone in a white coat comes up to you and says, “You have to do it this way, otherwise you are risking the life of your unborn child,” it's a pretend choice they are giving you. “You could do this. You don't have to, but your baby might die.” You're not giving a woman a choice. You're masquerading a choice. I think you can feel really bullied in those scenarios. That's the antithesis of an empowered birth. Meagan: I love that you pointed that out. I can connect to that just in my own birth and as a doula watching hundreds of people give birth, seeing that come in and happen. Danielle: Yeah, I bet you see that all the time. 9:13 Danielle's first pregnancy with vasa previaMeagan: Okay, so you mentioned that your first birth was a planned home birth and there were some things that happened that shifted, and obviously, it was a C-section. Tell us more about that. Danielle: Yeah, so I live in New York City where I would say home births are not maybe as popular as they are in other parts of the country. The insurance rates for midwives are pretty insane. Even just to decide I wanted a home birth in New York City was a feat and to find the right midwives. I had planned for it. I had a really great pregnancy, but then at around week 32, we went in for one of our scans and they found vasa previa. Vasa previa is kind of like placenta previa but it's where the veins, the fetal vein come out of the Wharton's jelly and is in the way of the birth canal. If I were to have gone into labor when that happened, then the fetal vein could burst and they say it's about seven seconds before the baby would bleed out. So I went from, I had this beautiful home birth planned. I had the bathtub. I had this midwife I loved to, “You have vasa previa. If it doesn't move–” it had to move a half a centimeter. “If it doesn't move in the next two weeks by the time you hit 34 weeks, you have to sit in a hospital bed until you are full-term and then we're going to induce you.” It was one of those moments where you just kind of watch reality melt in front of you. It went from my home birth to the most medicalized birth you could imagine. Meagan: Yeah. Danielle: I wouldn't say I'm a religious person, but I'm a deeply spiritual person and my husband and I were praying every single day. We were visualizing the vein moving. We were doing so many things. We had this little baby shoe that we would pray over and put all of our energy into just– it could make me cry. Just bring her here. Get her here.11:29 A humbling birth experienceDanielle: That's where you are very humbled. We can talk more about this later, but this idea that the most important thing is a healthy baby. I very much disagree with that. I think that's one of the missing pieces in this conversation of empowered births, but in that prayer was, “I want a healthy baby and I want a birth that we both need.” That became my prayer instead of the birth that I wanted. Meagan: Yes, that we both need. Danielle: That we both need. I was humbled. I was born C-section in the 80's and my mom didn't breastfeed. It was a different time then. She didn't breastfeed by choice because the doctors were kind of like, “You have a choice. You could breastfeed or you don't have to. You could just do formula,” and my mom chose formula because that was right for her. I had a lot of judgment. I had a lot of judgment that she didn't even try a natural birth. I had a lot of judgment that she didn't even try to breastfeed and I was very humbled. I was served a dose of humble pie. My daughter and I ended up with the birth that we both needed to work through that karma of this judgment I had. What ended up happening was I had to move from my home birth midwife to a hospital. I found these midwives in New Jersey about an hour away from my house in New York City. They had a birthing clinic that was in a hospital so I could go there. But you know, it's an hour's drive. It's New York City. You don't own a car so you have to rent. It was a whole thing just to get there. Just the change was so monumental to go from what really felt like this beautiful, safe place to give birth with these people I had built a relationship with and then I was thrown into this other practice. I didn't really vibe with the midwives there. It was so much more medicalized. I just started to feel really scared even before I was giving birth. I will say that my HBAC offered so much peace and forgiveness for myself because I realized in my second birth what I didn't have in my first and why I couldn't go to the places I went in my home birth in my hospital birth because I didn't feel safe there. The vein moved and so I went back to a no-risk, regular pregnancy, but I had already moved to the hospital and it was going to be too much to go back. My husband was kind of freaked out at that moment too like, “What if the baby moved a half a centimeter again? Let's just be in a hospital.” I understood that. 14:09 Going into laborDanielle: I went into labor and I think the fear hit us. We just went to the hospital too early. All of the things they tell you not to do that I think most first moms and first parents just do because it all feels so new. Meagan: Well, it does and it's like, “Well, wait. These signs mean I'm having a baby and I'm having a baby at this place so I should go there.” Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. I knew the moment I went into labor. I wasn't in active labor for a while. I could just feel waves, but they weren't painful waves. I was just a little crampy, so I stayed at home for 24 hours there. My water didn't break, but then it just started getting more and more intense. They started getting closer together, but my water still hadn't broken so we just decided to go to the hospital because it's also an hour away. You don't want to get caught in New York City traffic because it could have easily been three hours away. So we go. I also had to change doulas because the doula in New York City understandably wasn't going to travel. She had small kids. So it was just all newness. I didn't necessarily vibe with my doula. I didn't feel safe in her arms. She was kind of more like– and I always tell people that you have to find the doula that matches and is the yin to your yang. She just wasn't that for me. She was kind of small and fairy-like and very airy, but I'm very airy. I wanted a lioness that was just going to catch me and hold my hand and be really grounding for me. It just feels off the minute it started. It wasn't. It was right. It was exactly what was supposed to happen. I went and when I got to the hospital, I was only 2 centimeters. I had already been in labor for about 24 hours. It wasn't like I couldn't sleep, but I didn't sleep well. I was tired. They were like, “You can go home an hour away. You could get a hotel around here.” We decided to get a hotel and as I was leaving, my water broke and they were like, “Just stay.” Danielle: So God bless them, they let me do a natural labor for about 36 hours in a hospital setting. Meagan: That is impressive. Danielle: I'm really grateful. I chose that hospital because it was run by midwives. They definitely delivered. They let me really try. I hit this moment where I just ran out of steam and my contractions slowed. In retrospect, if that had been a home birth, I think they would have just given me some honey and helped me try and take a nap. Meagan: Got to bed. Danielle: Yeah, but that wasn't what happened. It was C-section time. I was so tired that I just said, “Okay.” 17:06 Danielle's C-sectionDanielle: We went off and it wasn't as scary as I thought it was going to be. The scariest part was how heavy the medication is and I had been laboring. I think with emergency C-sections, I had been in labor for almost 48 hours and I was so tired. The toll of a C-section is big on anyone, but then especially if you had been in labor for as long as I had been. That was the hardest part and recovery is intense. Recovery, I think, was also emotionally heavy for me too just when you had planned– and they tell you don't plan for your birth, but of course you do. And then when you have the exact opposite of what you thought, it's hard not to judge yourself. It's hard not to wonder what you could have done differently. It's hard not to be sad and upset and mad and all of those feelings. So it took me a long time to look through those feelings and kind of realize that my daughter and I had the exact birth we were supposed to have. Meagan: That you needed. What did you feel like helped you get through those and walk through them? Was it time and processing and finding that, “Hey, I made these decisions and they weren't maybe what I thought I'd make, but again, that's what I needed to have this experience in the end,”? What helped you walk through that?Danielle: One book I always recommend to people is Spirit Baby. Have you heard of it? Meagan: No, I haven't but I'm going to write it down. We're going to put it in the show notes here. Danielle: It's a really powerful book about– it's written by this medium and he talks about sometimes mediums talk to spirits in the past. Sometimes they talk to angels. He realized that the spirits he was seeing and talking to were spirits that were about to come into the world so he called them spirit babies. The book is just this beautiful story after story of how he would talk to these spirits and then he would help couples talk to those spirits that they were about to bring in and he helped so many people who were having trouble getting pregnant, etc. It just reminded me so much of we think because we are here on Earth and I thought, “I'm pregnant. This is what I want to do. This is what I'm going to do.” I really forgot that I'm bringing a spirit into the world. I'm a vessel. I'm not the driver. We are driving together. It's the same thing. Then they are born and it's the exact same thing. You are not my child. You are not mine. You are a soul that came to this Earth and you are on your own path. We're just here to guide each other and help each other. That was a big part of what helped me. I remembered that she also needed a certain type of birth. It didn't have to be a mistake that we got there together and just trusted that that was what we needed, but also that maybe it was a lesson I needed. I'm not the boss of her, you know? So that helped. There's also something called havening you can work with. I don't know if doulas do it. I worked with a midwife, but it's physical touch to help you work through birth trauma. It's a lot of just rubbing the arms up and down, having someone just help you physically release the emotions around it. Meagan: Is it similar to tapping? Danielle: Kind of. It's like this, like rubbing. It can be a lot of different things. It's havening. It's creating a safe space for birth trauma. Meagan: Okay, I'm loving this. Danielle: So talking about it was really helpful and one of the ways I found my midwife for my home birth VBAC, there was not a single midwife in New York City that would do it, but I started making this relationship with this woman upstate about two hours away. She was in her 70's, this midwife, so she did the havening with me. She just was like, “Just tell me what happened, baby. Just tell me what happened. It's all right. I hear you. Just tell me what happened.” Just that safe space to tell my story to someone who so deeply knew the birth space and could understand and knew exactly how I was feeling and the safe space I needed and that I didn't have, it was really healing to talk to those havening ears of hers. Yeah, and she was in her 70's. She was my midwife for my HBAC and I was her second to last birth. She retired shortly after. Meagan: Wow. Danielle: Yeah. You hear the stories about midwifery and women with these powers and the history of how witches have been demonized and you start to see the connections because you start to see the magic. You're a doula. You have magic. There's no way I could have done what I did with the birth of my son at home without my doula and my midwife. I really think it's the most beautiful form of sorcery and magic to create that safe space because I had to go to another world to bring my son here. You have to cross the veil. You have to go somewhere else, so in order to do that, you have to have people holding a safe space for you where your body is and making sure your body is okay, that your soul is okay. Going through that experience was also very healing from my first birth because I was like, “Oh. This is what a safe space looks and feels like.” It's not what I had in the hospital, so okay. That's okay. I didn't have that with my first birth. If I had, I think she would have been born vaginally and that's okay too. It offered a lot of forgiveness. 23:31 Connecting with your babyMeagan: I love that you said that it offered a lot of forgiveness. That is something that is very, very, very difficult to do. A lot of the time, we blame ourselves for things like we were talking about, but the forgiveness. I forgive this experience. I recognize I had this. I accept that I had this. It isn't what I'm having now. I'm recognizing that, but I'm going to forgive that and I'm going to take that step forward and find that healing step in this right direction. Danielle: Yeah, and also I will say two things. One, when my daughter was born and my daughter is the one I had the C-section with. I melted into her. We melted into each other. We were just so connected. It's inexplicable. When my son was born– and with my daughter, I had the most medicalized birth. I was traumatized after the epidural. I had the worst shakes because I hadn't eaten so it was just really traumatizing physically, but then my connection with her was immediate. I had the most beautiful home birth with my son. Truly, he was born by a fireplace and my husband and daughter caught him. It was snowing the most beautiful, fluffy snow. It was literally perfect. I did not feel connected. It took a while to build a connection to my son. Meagan: Picture perfect. Danielle: I think also, we have these expectations of, “Oh, if I have this birth, then everything will be just perfect and I'll feel so connected to my child and my child will latch right away.” None of that means that. So also, releasing those expectations of that. The birth that you want is for you and I think the more you can get clear on that the better, then when you invite the soul of your child to have the birth that they need, that's when you start to really learn from each other. I don't know if the birth I had with my son was maybe what he wanted. I don't know, because it didn't feel like when he got here that he was ready to be here. He probably could have waited around for a little while. I almost feel like he participated in the birth that I really needed and that my soul really needed. Then he kind of made me pay for it. He didn't sleep for two years. I mean, he's the best. I have such a special connection with him now, but it took a while so it doesn't mean that just because you have the birth of your dreams that that's going to mean you have the connection of your dreams. There is so much within our power, but there is just also so much outside of it. Meagan: Yeah. Whoa. I just got the chills listening to you. It's so amazing to look at it that way because I think too a lot of moms that have had C-sections that maybe didn't have the connection, they are looking for it from a different experience or the same thing where you were like, “I had that immediate connection. I didn't have the experience that I was desiring or planning on, but I had that immediate connection.” It just differs from everybody. Like you said, what we need, what our babies need, what that journey is looking like, whatever that looks like for us, is usually what is going to unfold. Sometimes it's not exactly what our minds would write down on a piece of paper or draw. Danielle: Exactly. That's part of that forgiveness too. It's just– and this is just I think getting older now is what it's allowed me to think in this way because the younger me definitely wouldn't have. It's just to let things unfold as they are meant to be and trust that they are unfolding in exactly the way they are supposed to. Thank goodness, I had that after my son was born. I think that birth offered me a lot of space for him to be the little soul he needed to be. He wasn't the kid that was going to melt into me right away. So just letting him be him was medicine for me. It really was to allow him the space instead of me saying, “Oh, I have to have this kind of connection with my son immediately when they are born.” We are taught that. We are taught that equals how good your birth is or how good of a mother you are. That's not to say– he was a great latcher, but he was energetic. I could tell my son needed some space. He was like, “Let me figure out who I am. Let me figure out who I am.” Yeah. And just offering that I think to our children and to ourselves is such a gift. Meagan: When you were talking about birth plans and planning, if we have this thing in our mind where we absolutely have this plan and we think that we absolutely have to connect with that child or that child has to connect with us, but then we start doubting, “Well, why does that child not like me?” Like you said, “Am I not a good mom? What did I do to fail? Maybe my birth didn't go as planned and that's why we are not connecting because I failed my baby.” This is literally where our minds go so often and it doesn't need to go there. I think in a lot of ways, it's because the world tells us that that's what we have to have or that's what the movies are showing us or Instagram or Facebook is showing us. Danielle: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. None of those things can show your energetic connection. Meagan: No. Danielle: I think having a mantra– and this is a life mantra, but I mean as we all know and I imagine everyone listening is either a mother or going to be soon, but the mantra of– and I say this to my kids all of the time. We are right where we are supposed to be and I'm right here. Even in the middle of a meltdown. “Baby, we are right where we are supposed to be. It's all right. I'm here. I love you.” The more we can remind ourselves that too, in a birth we weren't ready for or didn't think we would have, just remind ourselves that we are right where we need to be. We are safe. This is all part of the cosmic lesson that each of us individually needs and trusting and surrendering. I mean, that is why women and bodies with wombs give birth because we are the feminine– forget gender– the feminine are the ones who know how to surrender. The masculine are the ones that go out and achieve and make things. They use their will. The feminine is the vessel. The feminine call things to it, so the more that you can deeply surrender to that, I think the more we can really embody whatever is happening in that moment instead of feeling like it is happening to us. 32:26 SurrenderingDanielle: It's just so true in birth too. Talk about the ultimate surrender. Meagan: Oh my gosh, yes. It can be so difficult to put ourselves in that next space of surrendering and accepting. I think a lot of people will say, “No, don't surrender. You have to fight.” I don't believe that if we are surrendering, we are giving up. Danielle: No, I think it's the opposite. Meagan: Yeah. But I think sometimes that's how it's looked. Surrender is like, “Here. Do whatever,” or just, “I'll surrender and I'll give this experience,” but I don't think it's that way.Danielle: No, surrender is when you become what you are calling in. If you are calling in an empowered birth, you become that empowered being that has an empowered birth so that you can have it. You surrender to being that empowered person. You don't surrender to, “Okay, whatever you say.” That is being a victim of circumstance which, by the way, we will also all do that too. I did that many times. Meagan: Sometimes it's natural. It just happens. Danielle: That's okay too. I was really grateful in that case to have– there was a part of me when my midwife said, “Okay, it's C-section time,” I was like, “You know what? Okay.” I think I probably could have fought, but I was just like, “You know what? Okay.” So it's not to say that– I think victim can be a bad word. I don't think it's a bad word. I think sometimes, you just need to fall into someone's very capable hands and be okay with that, but that is very different to surrender. Surrender is embodying what you want, calling it to you, and surrendering to your embodiment of it. Meagan: Absolutely. I think that is such a powerful message to this community specifically especially because of what a lot of the times we as VBAC moms are going through and where we are mentally through our prep and through our past traumas and through our doubt. A lot of the time we doubt because the world is telling us to doubt. Danielle: To all of the mamas and mamas-to-be out there, just giving birth to a human is the most miraculous, greatest thing in the universe but then to also be up against what we are up against in society and the medical community– and I'm not saying anything bad. I have very dear friends who are OB/GYNs and I love them. They have the best intentions, but that doesn't mean their actions are the best. As you know, I have a podcast and I had an incredible OB/GYN come onto the podcast and talk about how we have lost reverence for the birthing body, that it's so medicalized that we are constantly– just by being in a hospital, just by being medicalized, the birthing body is treated like this weird vessel that is just kind of in the way of the baby getting here so you just have to keep the vessel alive. That's it. You just have to keep the vessel alive and then get the baby out. That's really why I hate this idea of all that matters is a healthy baby. That's absolutely not all that matters. 36:06 Choices in birthDanielle: That's one of the things that you have to confront when you choose a home birth. You have to confront that. You have to confront that perhaps your choices will lead to outcomes that you don't want, but you have to choose. I believe that how you choose to birth impacts not just you but your child and not just your child in the moment of birth, but your child for the rest of your life, their imprint. Choose is a really important word there. It's not like everyone has to choose a home birth otherwise your kid will be messed up. It's how you choose to birth, how you choose to show up to that situation, how you choose to embody, and how you choose to feel empowered. Those are the makings of magic. I think when we say, “All that matters is a healthy child,” we are treating a woman's body like it doesn't matter. We are treating a woman's experience like it doesn't matter. It is a trauma that lives through generations. Even my grandmother was born via forceps. Her mother was put out using chloroform. Meagan: Yes. Danielle: We're not that far from it even today. Especially in America, we have so lost our way on how powerful women are and how powerful birthing bodies are. There have been studies that show the more women that are in the room with a birthing woman, the more positive outcomes there are. There is a magic to women gathering and lifting each other up so that's my hope for women. It's not that we have all home births or all one way of birthing. It's that we feel empowered and we let birth feel like the magical experience it can be even if you choose an epidural. It doesn't matter. The details almost don't matter. It's how you feel throughout it. I have a dear friend who had a very empowered C-section. She was like, “I chose it. I wanted it. I felt great.” She felt in control of her birth. That is an empowered birth. Meagan: Yes. Danielle: I think we can use the best of what the medical system gives us to help you have the birth you want, but the important thing is that you get to choose what you want for your body because your experience as the birthing body really matters. Meagan: Wow. Seriously, I feel like you could be on this podcast for hours and hours and hours. I just keep getting the chills over and over again. Danielle: The world's longest podcast. Meagan: It's like my feet are on a cooler or something because I can feel chills from my feet all the way up to my head. It's such a powerful message here. Danielle: This topic is so dear to my heart because I really felt like I was healing generational trauma. I could feel it. I could feel the trauma. My mom didn't even know what an empowered birth was, God bless her. She didn't even know it was an option. I want different stories for my daughter. 39:14 The ripple effect of birthDanielle: I don't know how out there you want to go, but I believe it's connected to our sexuality. I believe it's connected to the light within each of us, how we birth, how we choose to birth, the space we hold for birth. We tend to treat birth the moment the baby comes out and it is just so much bigger and broader than that in my opinion. It has such a ripple effect. Yeah, so it's important to me that women know what their options are. A lot of women don't even know. When I got pregnant with my first, I was like, “What's the difference between a doula and a midwife?” I didn't even know the basics. Meagan: Yeah, I mean, people still. It's 2024 and people will be like, “Oh, what do you do?” I'm like, “Oh, I'm a doula.” They're like, “Wow. How long did school take for that? How is catching babies?” I'm like, “No, no, no, no. I don't catch babies.” Even still today, doulas and midwives are completely confused. We don't even know now. We do have providers saying things and it just keeps carrying. I had one provider ask me after a client of mine had an unexpected, undesired Cesarean after she was holding baby. We got baby nursing which she was so happy about. She was getting some of the things she wanted and he said, “Is she over it yet? I mean, look. Everyone's healthy right there.” So to your healthy comment, there's so much more to all of this and like you said, it's a ripple effect. Where it starts, if we go all the way back to where the baby actually starts and how amazing and beautiful it is, and then all the way up to birth, but then even further and greater. There are so many things in our outside world today that can try to stomp these down and not help us find that empowerment or belief or faith in our bodies. It's hard to sometimes find that. Danielle: Yeah. I think most women I know are also the best copers I've ever met. That's a problem because I can promise you guys one thing and that's that your emotions don't just go away when you cope. They live inside of you and until you work through them and breathe through them and put them out and get them out and move them out and cry them out and talk them out and whatever you need to do to get them out, but if you had a traumatic birth and then you had a practitioner say something like that to you and then you told yourself, “Oh, yeah. No, it was fine because my babies are fine.” It's not fine. It's not fine. It's okay to let it not be fine and there are lots of people, doulas included, who can hold that space for you and let it not be fine. You know, I had to do that before I could even think about having a second and having a home birth because we all know if you don't work through your fears, they show up in birth. 42:34 Ways to release fearMeagan: Oh, yes they do. Danielle: I had lots of fears going into my birth so it's not like they all go away, but I had at least faced them. There were no dark corners. There was no, “Okay, I'm just going to pretend like this never happened and just go into birth,” because those are the things that show up. I think for my first birth one of the things that showed up was, “Okay, anything but a C-section. Whatever it is, episiotomy fine. Just not a C-section,” and then that's exactly what happened and that's exactly what showed up. You do have to– and that's part of back to our conversation about surrender. Surrendering is so hard because it means you had to face all of your fears. You can't surrender into the places that you won't go. Surrendering means you've made all of the space. You've faced your fears. My midwife with my home birth said– because I got to 10 centimeters with my daughter. I was at 10 centimeters for a long time and then it was too painful. I just couldn't release into the surrender. So because I had worked with her on a lot of my birth trauma, she knew very well about my first birth. She was like, “We're going to get to this moment and you're going to have to choose. You're going to get to 10 centimeters with me and you're going to have to choose. I'm going to hold your hand and I'm going to need you to choose yes. We're going to bring this baby boy into this world right here. I need you to choose yes.” That space– we had been through my deepest fears and my deepest fears were that I was going to lose him or I wasn't going to be able to do it and I was going to have to go to the hospital. We had talked through my deepest fears so I could just surrender into them instead of hide from them. I think that's why birth asks us to be just so, so brave because you can't fake your way through your fears. Meagan: You can't. Danielle: And insecurities and all the things when it comes to birth. It really does strip you down. Meagan: Yes. Have you ever heard of a mother's blessing? Have you ever heard of that? Danielle: Tell me what it is. Meagan: Okay, so one of my doulas wanted to throw me this mother's blessing. It was essentially a party for me, but it was very– I don't even know how to explain it. Danielle: We call it a circle, like a mother's circle. Meagan: It was very connecting. Danielle: That's what I call it, yeah. Meagan: Yes. So they called it a mother's blessing, so a mother's circle. We did. We got in the circle and we talked about these fears. These are the women within my birth that were welcoming in my birth or women who I was welcoming into my circle of trust along the way because I didn't feel like I could tell everyone I wanted to have a vaginal birth after two C-sections out of the hospital. Danielle: Wow. Meagan: We had this moment of connection where they asked me, “What are your fears? Let these out. Let these flow through you and not get bogged up.” Then we all connected and created this crazy bracelet. It was really, really amazing. Each one gave me more power in the bracelet and we would wrap it around. We were all connected then cut it and we all wore it together. It was the weirdest thing, but every time I looked down at this bracelet– we talked about it earliest, but the connection, the power, and the magic. I felt this magic of people who weren't even with me in that very, very moment, but they were so with me. It really helped me face some of those fears and remember that I've faced those. Danielle: Yeah. Meagan: They're still coming in my mind for a minute. Danielle: And you're not alone. This is the sorcery I'm talking about. This is why most of the “witches” that were burned at the stake were actually women in the birth space because it is magic. You have to have a cauldron and spells and blessings and magic to bring souls into this world. Yeah. I had a baby blessing. It was a baby/mama blessing that was just so beautiful. I wish it were more institutionalized versus a baby shower because you don't need a baby shower. You need a mama shower. Meagan: Right? I know I felt so uplifted. Danielle: You are the one that's bringing this baby. Yeah. Yeah. We did a birthing necklace so if anyone listening is wondering, you can Google mama blessings or mama circles. There are some really beautiful things that you can do. You have someone start a string for a necklace and you ask everyone to bring a bead. Meagan: Yep, I had that too. Danielle: You around and everyone puts a blessing and why they chose that bead for you and what they are wishing for you in your birth or in your motherhood and at the end, you have this beautiful necklace. I wore both of my necklaces during both of my births. There's another thing where all of the mamas who are in your circle are given a flower and they give you one piece of wisdom and then hand you the flower. There are so many beautiful things you can do. Meagan: There's the candle. Have you heard about the candles? Danielle: No, what did you do with the candles? Meagan: So the flower was the bracelet part and then I also had the beads. I actually have a picture of me in labor holding onto that and I just felt the power within my palm. We did this candle. Everyone has a candle and everyone gives really positive, encouraging words, or a mantra or something, then when you go into labor, you let your team and you let your circle know and everyone lights this candle. Danielle: Yes, they did this too. Yeah. The labor candle. Yeah, it's just so beautiful and it matters. It really matters so when you say, “All that matters is a healthy baby,” it's like, “No. How you get to the healthy baby also really, really matters.”Meagan: Yeah, I want to say, “No, duh. Of course, a mom that is alive and a baby that is alive and healthy matters. No brainer.” But why are we saying all that matters? Why is it all that? Why that?Danielle: There is a lot inherent in birth that is death. I think that really, really scares Americans and we don't confront it. We don't talk about it. We hide it. We hide away our elderly. They are not the wise people of our society that they actually are. We hide from death. If you hide from death, you hide from birth. I don't think you get to choose, so there is a reason that birth is treated the way it is and it's because there is a lot of fear around what it means to die in this country. Meagan: Yeah. Danielle: I think the part that just makes me the most sad in that conversation is that women are not taught how powerful and capable they are and their bodies are and how much wisdom our bodies have.Danielle: I was just talking to a woman the other day and she was like, “Oh yeah.” She is pregnant and she said, “My OB is worried because I have smaller hips.” I'm like, “When you go to the studies, literally, that is just bad medicine. That is like malpractice to make a woman feel like her body made a baby it cannot birth.” So inherently, now she has this seat of fear that her body can't do it, that her body is not capable, and it's terrible. I'm so grateful for the role of conventional medicine. I'm so grateful there is a 9-1-1 number you can call if you home birth is going the wrong way. We don't have to choose. Medicalized birth can be for emergency situations and thank God. Thank God for it. Meagan: Yes. Yes. Danielle: But until you get to that emergency, your body is so capable. Your body can absolutely birth your baby and the more you surround yourself with people that believe that too, I mean, trying to do that, trying to birth a human naturally and just to keep your soul, mind, and body in the face of someone who thinks you can't do it, might be impossible. It might be impossible. Meagan: That's what I was going to say. Not only does this woman have this seed of doubt in her mind, but her provider is doubting her before she even begins. It reminds me of that OB you said you had on the podcast on Sakara Life. We are losing this. We are placing doubt before we even get there and I'm going to tell you right now. That provider is probably not going to wait, probably not going to trust the body, probably not going to trust the process, and things are going to be pushed whether she has a C-section or not. I'm not saying that, but if someone doubts someone's ability before labor even happens that they can't get the baby out of the pelvis, that is a red flag that is an issue. Think about how many patients that provider probably has that is placing doubt. Danielle: I think connected to everything we are saying, our fear of death, our fear of– we have convinced ourselves that a medicalized birth is a risk-free birth or at least a lower-risk birth. Meagan: Safer. 53:02 Which risks are you willing to take?Danielle: We just know from the literature that's not true. In fact, it's the opposite, but even if it were true, I have a firm belief that for every action, there is a reaction. For every– and what I mean by that is in order to bring a human into this world, it's going to be hard. People are like, “I'm just going to do a C-section.” There is no world where a C-section is easy. There is no risk-free easy way out. We can tell ourselves that there are, but there is not. So back to this idea of the empowered birth are which risks are you willing to take? Which risks are you comfortable with? Which risks are you okay with for your body? Those are the questions we have to be asking. Not, “Oh, I'm choosing a home birth because I'm just a little bit more risk tolerant.” That's not what it is at all. Meagan: Exactly, yeah. Danielle: Or, “I'm choosing a C-section because I just want it to be easy.” That's not what it is at all. I've had a C-section. It's not easy at all. I think we fool ourselves in the conversation by making things seem safer, seem easier, and they're not. Meagan: Well, I feel like these things we are telling us is a way to justify our actions. A provider who is going to tell someone that they have CPD and their op-reports, it may be a way to justify the action of a performed Cesarean on their part. We say these things to soften what we are doing. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know. I'm sure you've had conversations around The Business of Being Born, but that's very real. Meagan: It's very real. Danielle: That's why, in my opinion, conventional medicine is perfect for acute, emergency situations because it is a business, and thank God they are there for those emergencies, but if you are not in an emergency moment which, by the way, birth is not an emergency, then I don't think– and this is true even outside of birth. I have my Masters in functional medicine and human nutrition. It's the same with nutrition. There's no role for pharmacology and conventional medicine when it comes to everyday health and wellness. Thank God that it's there if someone has a heart attack or God forbid gets hit by a bus or something like that. Thank God for conventional medicine, but they do not have the tools to help with chronic, everyday metabolic issues. What they are trained to do is give pharmaceutical drugs that mask symptoms or change physiology to mask symptoms, but it's not this “well care” that we need both in birth and outside of birth. 56:07 Nutrition and nourishmentMeagan: And nutrition is such a passion of mine and something that I would love to also have an episode in the future because there is so much to do with exactly what you were saying. It's not just birth. There is so much more and that's a big one. That's a really, really big one. Danielle: I like to talk about it in terms of nourishment because I think that nutrition is scientific and there is nothing scientific– Meagan: Nourishment. Danielle: Yeah, and to think of it that way because I think so many times women are taught from the lens of nutrition that this is what you should eat for your pregnancy and not eat and this is what you should eat postpartum and not eat. Do you feel nourished? Do you feel good? Do you feel whole? Nourishment is inclusive of your emotional connections with your partner, your emotional connections with your community, your connection to why are you on this planet, your spirituality, and your religion. Nourishment is multifaceted where nutrition tends to just be, “Did you get enough protein?” Meagan: Proteins and carbs and fats. Did you hit your macros today? Danielle: Yeah. It's such a boring conversation that we haven't been having for most of humanity. This is our small, small, small understanding of what the body needs and it's one lens into what the body needs. A lot of my work is trying to help people understand that through the eyes of nourishment, we can actually transform our health because they are thinking about both how we feel from not just a physical standpoint, but from an emotional and spiritual one as well. Meagan: Absolutely. I love how you were like, “It's just a small lens.” There is so much. There is so much. Danielle: I will tell you the deeper I get into literature, the deeper I get into scientific studies, and the deeper we go into the mechanics of the cell, we go one step farther and we are in quantum and then we have no idea what's going on, so it's just this constant reminder of how it's so cool that we can do heart transplants. That is so awesome and the geek in me and the scientist in me is so intrigued.I so love understanding the biochemistry of nutrition, what's really going on, and what our mitochondria need to function. I love that and it's so, so cool that our kids are starting to understand that and can make real changes in people's lives by understanding that, but also, we can't— I personally can't practice there without having reverence for how much we don't know and making sure that even though I can say, “Hey, after your labs and this questionnaire, I think you might be deficient in a couple of these things, so let's put you on these things,” if I don't then also have the conversation of, “How is your relationship with your mom because you've talked about some trauma?”Those conversations are so separate from conventional medicine. I hope the new wave of medicine is the whole person and there is a whole assessment. Meagan: Well, yeah. I know time is up, but I was having a conversation about this whole thing. Okay, maybe we are deficient in these areas, but how is our life? How is our sleep? How is our connection? How is our cortisol? What are we doing in addition over here? That's just not talked about a ton. Danielle: Yeah. I will say this as the nutritionist. I think soul health is way more important than any other health. The more you take care of whatever your soul needs whether it is deep breaths or a vacation or a mantra or a really good book by a fireside or some hot chocolate or a glass of wine or a bowl of french fries after a late night of dancing, answering those questions about what your soul needs, I think, are the most important and then once we can do that, we start to uncover, “Oh, you know what? I want to eat really well because I have this connection to myself.” The way we take care of ourselves is a reflection of our connection to ourselves so I think soul health as our first priority usually ends up being the thing that has the greatest impact because of the ripple effects. Meagan: Yeah, it helps us find the connectivity again because sometimes we are slightly disconnected then we find our soul and we find what we need, and then we flourish through there. Danielle: Yeah, it's like if you don't have that, then it's just another to-do list. “Oh, I need to check off meditating. Oh, I need to check off getting my greens today.” That's exhausting. Meagan: It is exhausting. I've done it. Danielle: Yeah. Meagan: I'm guilty right here. Danielle: We all have. We all have, then you just end up chronically stressed and you have adrenal fatigue and it's beside the point so it's trying to anchor people on those soul questions first. Meagan: Absolutely. Well, I encourage everybody listening to tune into your podcast. We're going to make sure that we have– it's Sakara Life. Again, that's how I say it. Is that how you say it? Danielle: That's right, yeah. Meagan: Sakara Life. We are going to make sure we have that link in the show notes. Don't forget about us here at The VBAC Link listeners. I'm just saying, don't forget about us. Danielle: No, you're work is so important. Thank you. Meagan: You're immediately going to be hooked. There's so much amazingness. I mean, everything on there. You guys just do such an incredible job. I'm so grateful for all that you are doing and all that you are helping, your line, and everything. We are going to have everything in the show notes so definitely go click around and go explore. Danielle: Yeah, and just in case people don't know, I have a company called Sakara. It was started over 12 years ago and it really started as a food company. We delivered the food that changed our lives. We started delivering it to people and then that turned into hundreds of people then thousands of people then millions of people. Meagan: Millions and millions, yeah. Danielle: Yeah, so now we offer fresh food delivery at your door. We offer it to every zip code in the United States. It's all organic. It's all plant-rich, really tasty, beautiful food. It's what I eat every single day. Yeah. Then just on this mission to put people in the driver's seat of their health to really help you understand what is the toolkit you need to really feel good, to really nourish, so our podcast is also part of that. One of the nourishing conversations we can have is, do you feel lit up at the end? Meagan: Mhmm. Oh, I love it so much. Thank you, seriously, from the bottom of my heart for coming on. I feel like my cheeks hurt from smiling just hearing you speak, feeling you speak. Oh, everything about you is magic. I know you are not the doula, but you have magic too. You are incredible. Danielle: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you and thank you for all the work you do. I told you this at the beginning that I didn't have your podcast when I was searching for how to have a vaginal birth after my C-section and I think these stories are so important so that we can remind women how powerful they are and that we do have the option and that the best intended medical caregivers who say, “We have increased of blah, blah, blah and rupture,” it's like, “Do you really understand your risk? Do you really, really understand how much more of a risk you're taking?” I will tell you the missing part of the conversation is all you are gaining by choosing the birth that you want, so yes. Yes. It's slightly, very slightly more risky post-C-section, but no matter how you give birth, choosing and feeling empowered is going to give you so much. That's often the part of the conversation that is missing. Meagan: I agree. Again, another mic drop here. I can't even. You are just– I need you in my life every day, so that's why I'm listening to your podcast because you are just so amazing. Again, thank you so much. Danielle: You are so sweet. Thank you. Meagan: We will talk to you later. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

A few months ago we posted a video clip from Kaitlyn's birth taken by Danielle Wilstead at Wild Oak Birth Photography and it went viral! We have Kaitlyn and Danielle with us on the podcast today sharing the backstory behind her inspiring video. In the video, a nurse is asking questions incessantly and Kaitlyn is advocating for herself while literally pushing out her baby! Kaitlyn shares the power of trusting that your body will tell you what it needs and listening to it when it does so. Additional LinksKaitlyn's Photography WebsiteDanielle's Photography WebsiteEmma's Birth StoryHow to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for ParentsThe VBAC Link Facebook CommunityFull Transcript under Episode DetailsMeagan: Hello, hello everybody. Guys, this is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have such a fun episode for you today. It's actually not a VBAC mom. I'm just going to put that flag right out there right now. She is a mama. I'm sure you will recall if you are following us on social media that went viral after her birth photographer posted a very incredible little snippet of a story of her birth. We posted it back in February and we will probably post it today. If you have not seen it, definitely go today to go watch this video. Her birth photographer, Danielle at Wild Oak, posted this video and it immediately gave me chills. Immediately. I want to say that she is not a VBAC mom but the episode today is going to be sharing her story and then also sharing more about how to really truly advocate for yourself and even make decisions that might be hard or sound weird to someone else. This mama has a history where she actually birthed out of the hospital and then with this baby, she birthed in the hospital. A lot of people would be like, “What? Why would you go back?” so we are going to talk a little bit about that. I want to welcome Kaitlyn and Danielle to the episode today. Ladies, thank you. Danielle: Thank you for having us.Kaitlyn: Mhmm, thank you. Emma and I are here together. Hello. Review of the WeekMeagan: I love when babies are on the episode. I love it, love it, love it. Okay, so before we get into the story, I do want to turn the time over to Danielle because she is so gracious and going to read a Review of the Week. Danielle: Yes, okay. So this review came in from Apple Podcasts and this is from kim_md44 and they titled this, “When a Podcast Gives You a Transformative Experience.” The review says, “It's hard for me to put into words how much this podcast has meant to me the last four months. I discovered this podcast during my second pregnancy when I was prepping for a TOLAC and wanted so desperately for a VBAC. Like many other listeners, my first birth was traumatic and ended in a C-section. One of the biggest hurdles I had to overcome was the mental gymnastics of getting over that trauma and truly believing my body was capable of birthing a baby vaginally. “This podcast did wonders in that journey. Hearing so many other women sharing experiences similar to mine not only helped me feel so validated, but it gave me so much hope for the future. This podcast gave me a community, my people. It gave me resources to help me advocate for myself and well, it paid off. I got my VBAC. On October 5, 2021, I had a beautiful, healing birth experience where I was able to birth my daughter vaginally. I did it.“So to the provider who told me that my pelvis was too small to birth my baby, who told me that this baby would have to be significantly smaller than my first to even think about attempting a VBAC, my second-born was a whopping pound heavier than my first and I pushed her out of my vagina. I did it.”So powerful. Meagan: That just gave me the chills. Danielle: Yes. All of the chills. All of the chills. Meagan: Yes. Such an empowering message and review. Thank you so much for that review. Just like she did, you can too. You can too. It's hard to sometimes imagine it being possible, but it is possible. So thank you so much for that review. Kaitlyn's StoriesMeagan: Okay, beautiful ladies. I have been looking forward to this. I texted Danielle. Obviously, it was going viral within seconds but I actually saw it from someone else's page. Of course, I recognize Wild Oak Birth so I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is from Danielle,” so I went over to your page and watched it 50 other times. I was trying to reshare this because this is such an empowering video. This is so amazing and then I had to text you. I texted you and I was like, “Holy cow,” and then I was just thinking about it and I was like, “Hey, this is such a great message that we can share with our listeners,” because as TOLAC mamas, as VBAC mamas, it can be really hard to be in a situation where you have people constantly saying, “Well, you could do this but you don't want to,” or “You don't want to do this,” very similar to Kaitlyn's, “Well, you don't want to birth like this.” Well, why don't I want to birth like this? We're being told how and what to do. It's very hard, very hard in the medical system to advocate for ourselves and say, “No, actually I don't really want to do this.” Anyway, so I want to turn the time over to Kaitlyn and Danielle if you have anything to say. But really, if you want to share this story because I know that we've only seen this tiny bit of this story so can you tell us a little bit about your journey and how it came about? I know that Danielle posted that you did choose to birth in the hospital after out of the hospital so maybe talk about the decision to do that because decisions in this VBAC world and in birth in general can really be hard to make but they can truly impact the way our birth has the outcome. So I would love to turn the time over to you. Kaitlyn: Thank you. Yeah, it was wild seeing that little two-minute snippet of a very precipitous birth– I will not lie. That was precipitous. Danielle: Very fast. Kaitlyn: Very intense, but just that last little bit go everywhere around the world honestly. I've had a lot of beautiful, beautiful messages from people reaching out just sharing that they were terrified about birth and now they feel a little bit of hope and a little bit of peace. That's, I think, I hope that your listeners will be able to get out of listening and hearing this story and my experiences and my feelings because it's that hope that everybody needs. Yes. You can make good decisions. Yes, they are hard and yes, things can be beautiful regardless of what happens. So yeah. It was a very big experience. This is my third. Emma is our third and my first was a hospital induction. Like many, it was more on the traumatic side. I had an OB who was not super supportive. They were like, “Why would you not have an epidural? That's dumb.” So not a good fit. With my second, I had a birth center down the street from us in Colorado. That was a water birth and so healing. The midwives gave me over and over and over again the opportunity to decide for myself like, “Okay, here's this option. What do you want to do? Here's what we understand. What do you want to do? Do you want to do your GBS swab?” “Yes, I do. Thank you.” They were providing that kind of care which I loved and as a birth worker myself, I love. Families deserve that kind of shared decision-making all over the board. We moved again and got pregnant. This was the one that we weren't expecting. We have three December babies now, three December girls so March is very fertile apparently. That was exciting but I wasn't ready to be pregnant yet. The only person I knew I wanted to be on my birth team was Danielle. I was like, “Danielle, I'm pregnant. I'm due a few days before Christmas. Please come.” She was like, “Okay, I'll think about it.”Danielle: I remember it being so close to Christmas. It is a hard decision but I'm like, “This is Kaitlyn. It's Kaitlyn. I have to be there. I'm going to make it work.” Kaitlyn: I was so grateful for that because honestly, I don't know who else would have come flying. But then it was like, “Okay, great. I have Danielle. Who else?” So yeah. For me, again that shared decision-making is really important to me but I felt really torn between my second and my third. I think I just got a little bit clearer on, these are the exact risks in the hospital and out of the hospital. They are pretty matched. Like, oh okay. There's no set risk like, “This midwife will have this much risk.” I attended some births where some midwives out of the hospital didn't transfer fast enough. That was partly the family's preference as well, but just like, “Oh, this is what I'm comfortable with and it's not quite this.” I interviewed a bunch of midwives and actually switched care temporarily and it just didn't feel right. It didn't sit right to be out of the hospital. I was like, “Okay, we're going to have a home birth.” My oldest was stoked. It was like, “Great. We're going to have the birth tub and I'll be there for you.” It was super sweet but it didn't feel right. I remember working with my therapist and writing a pros and cons list for both in and out of the hospital then being like, “Okay, how do I feel about this? How do I feel about this?”I was able to think through and process, “Okay. This is my bucket of fears and the pros in a hospital birth with this midwife, and here's my bucket of fears and my bucket of pros in this home birth midwife group,” that I was looking at. I just felt, “Okay. Nope. I'm going to pick the hospital bucket.” That felt a little wild to me. I definitely got in my head a lot about, “Okay. I'm a birth worker and who's going to judge me for doing this? Will people think that I'm making the right decision?” Meagan: Which can I just add that it makes my heart hurt a little bit that anybody let alone a birth worker has to– not doesn't have to but it happens because I did the same thing when I was preparing for my VBAC after two Cesarean birth. It was like, “Oh, who's going to think this? What are people going to say about my decision to do this?” to the point where I didn't even feel like I could share it. I didn't feel like I could tell anybody. I had just a select few people who knew my plan but I was scared to share it. It's hard because the biggest thing that matters is that it felt right for you. That's what matters. Kaitlyn: Yeah. That was interesting and good for me. I have a fantastic therapist so we talked about this at length like, “Okay. Why do you feel that this is important?” You are right. And just trying to pull that back and pull back that power of decision-making and coming back to myself.Meagan: Yeah. Good for you. Good for you. Kaitlyn: That was big and lots of work and lots of talking with my husband as well like, “This is how I feel. This group of people says that this is the right decision and this group of people says that that's dumb and stupid and you should go with this decision. I can't please both groups so I feel so torn.” But yeah. I think that it felt good and I knew that my hospital midwife was going to support me. I had literally brought– so the next thing I did was that I went through and my therapist was like, “Okay, let's acknowledge all of the trauma points from your first birth in the hospital and why this feels so scary because we can work on this. We can make this feel less scary.” That was really helpful because I literally made a list that I sent to Danielle. I was like, “These are points that are trauma points. This is how I can address those per se.” I brought that list to my midwife and was like, “Okay, let me tell you that these were the moments from my first in-hospital birth that was traumatic for me that I don't want to happen again. These are the points that I would appreciate and why these points in my birth plan are meaningful to me.” That was an awesome realization. I felt so much better like, “Okay. I know my provider is on my side. I'm not hiding anything from her. She's not hiding anything from me. I trust her and I trust her to take care of me if whatever happens.” That was the foundation that I needed. I needed it to be there. Meagan: I'm sure it solidified, “Okay. Yep. Definitely right. This is definitely right.” Kaitlyn: Yeah. Meagan: Which is such a great feeling to have. Kaitlyn: Mhmm, it is. I remember at my 40-week appointment, me getting all nervous over here because my last 40-week appointment with an in-hospital person was like, “All right. Let's schedule your induction.” She was like, “No, we're not going to talk about it. We'll talk about it when we need to. Everything is going to be just fine, Kaitlyn. Trust.” She told me about a client of hers that had birthed beautifully next to the bed. She was like, “That was such a beautiful birth.” It restored my hope in birth. Meagan: It's like she was projecting your fate. Kaitlyn: Yeah, that was kind of funny. Yeah. I walked out of that appointment being like, “Okay. I trust. I trust. I trust. This is going to be okay. I trust myself. This is the right decision. Let's move.” So the day after my due date, we went in. I just wanted some data. I was like, “Okay. Let's check. Let's see where we are at.” I was 3 centimeters. I was like, “Okay, that's good. Whatever.” Danielle and my team were like, “Woo! 3 centimeters!” I was like, “Sure, thanks.” But then I decided to do a stretch and sweep. You just have to be where it's like, “Okay, that's right. This is mindfulness. That's how I'm paying attention to sensations. This is what pushing feels like. It's pressure on the vaginal wall.” Yeah. The rest of the day, I got some cramps and bloody show out of that. It was midnight. I think I texted everybody. I was like, “All right. These are solid contractions. They're punchy. I don't feel like I need support yet, but FYI, things are starting to move.” My husband woke up. I made myself some eggs. Great. It's my birth tradition that I have eggs in my early labor mostly because in my first birth, I was like, “I want eggs,” and they were like, “Sorry. You can't have them.” Meagan: Hey, listen. Eggs are good protein and fat. That's power food right there but I love it. Kaitlyn: That's what I was craving. Meagan: It's all in spite of you telling me that I cannot have these. I will eat these with every baby.Kaitlyn: I will eat my eggs and I will enjoy them. Yes, and I do. So yeah. I woke up and I made myself eggs. I walked around the house. My husband woke up and was like, “Oh, are we moving? Okay. Let's do this.” Then we were like, “Okay, this is early birth where you pack yourselves and finish wrapping presents.” And then all my birth team was like, “Yeah, these were consistent minute long, 3-5 minutes together contractions. We're coming.” I was like, “Okay, that sounds good but I don't feel like I need support yet so no rush.” Then Danielle started driving and then I texted her and was like, “Nope, never mind. They stopped.” So Danielle turned around and they just stopped so I went to bed at about 3:00 AM and yeah. I'm not sure why it stopped but it did so I got more sleep. I woke up the next morning and there was nothing happening. I was like, “Oh, okay. I still don't feel l like I'm going to be pregnant much longer so let's move.” I scheduled an induction massage with one of our fantastic people up here. He is awesome. I sent my girlies off to play with grandma and got some alone time with my husband, some cervix ripening. So yeah. I remember getting to my prenatal massage at 12:30 PM. I got there, walked up the stairs, and felt, “Ooh. That is a solid contraction wave. Maybe we're not going to make it to sushi,” because that was our plan. We were going to get a massage and go to sushi. We never made it to sushi. Danielle: Nope. Kaitlyn: I remember walking in and Eva asking, “Okay, are you having any contractions?” I was like, “I think a few, yeah.” By the end of that massage, 80-90 minutes later, I remember I was in full-blown active labor at that point. I remember thinking and realizing, “Oh.” Eva's a birth doula as well so she was like, “Do you want some counterpressure?” I remember her counterpressure feeling fantastic and that's when I knew, “Oh, this is active labor.” I finished my massage. It took me forever to get dressed again. I texted the birth team super trembling. That's another cue for me like, “Oh, my body is changing things kind of fast.” I was like, “Okay, it's time. Come. I want support now.” That was at 2:00 when we left the massage. I got home at about 2:30. I remember on the way home being like, “Okay. We are going to go home. I'm going to get some calories. My birth team is going to get there. We're going to stay home for a few hours and I'm going to know when I need to go. I'm going to trust myself. My body will tell me when it's time. I know where to go. It's going to take a little bit. We're going to get settled at the hospital and we're going to have a baby in a few hours. It's going to be fine.”That's not quite what happened. We got home. I gobbled a little tiny bit of food because at that point I don't feel like eating very much. Danielle got there first then my doula, Carly. I just remember everybody being there and realizing everyone was there and just being like, “Okay, whew. I'm all good.” It felt bigger than the last time. “This is already hard.” That's what I remember telling Carly. I was like, “This is already hard.” She was like, “It's supposed to be.” “Yes, you're right but it's hard.”Meagan: But it's hard. Kaitlyn: Yeah. Then I remember my oldest came in. My middle child was taking a nap. She pretty much napped throughout my whole birth but my oldest got to come in and be with us while we were home. That was so sweet and filled that bucket for me of, “I'm not having a home birth. I don't get to be with her throughout my whole labor,” but she got to be there for at least a little bit which was a little sweet. Meagan: Special, yeah. Kaitlyn: Yeah, sweet moment. She was super, super sweet. Danielle: She was. Kaitlyn: “Come in, Mom. Hold out your hand and sit here.” Then she started offering me books because that is her favorite thing. Then she told us, “Mom, that was too loud. Don't wake up Sophie.” Meagan: That's hilarious. Kaitlyn: That was so funny. Then I felt it. My body told me, “Shift. It's time to go. I don't want to be in the car for any more of this. Let's move.” It took me 10 minutes to get out the door, but I'm pretty sure Danielle followed us on our tail the whole way to the hospital. Danielle: I sure did. Kaitlyn: I put my AirPods in with my mindfulness track and I fell asleep between contractions in the car on the way to the hospital. Danielle: Yeah. Kaitlyn: I remember sitting there and waking up, “Wait a second. How in the heck did I fall asleep?”Danielle: Yeah, well behind you driving, all I could see is her head tilting back like this and I'm panicking inside. You know, that backward arch is very common when baby is coming out. You are going back. Baby starts coming. Kaitlyn: Danielle was freaking out thinking I had a baby. Danielle: Is she having a baby in that car?! Pull over! Then she stood up again. I'm like, “Okay. What was that?” Kaitlyn: It was me falling asleep. Meagan: Were you in the back seat? Danielle: No, I was in my car behind her. Meagan: No, her. Was Kaitlyn in the back seat? Danielle: Oh no, she was in the front seat. Kaitlyn: I was in the front seat. Meagan: So you could see this. Danielle: Yes. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Meagan: Oh my gosh. Kaitlyn: That was incredible. She was like, “That's a sign that you were coping excellently.” I was like, “Oh, thank you. Thank you.” Which I never imagined because that car ride was the most dreaded part of my labor. I hated being in the car for that five minutes down the road to the birth center.” So I was like, “Okay.” I remember getting in the car being like, “Nope. I'm going to make this. It's going to be totally fine. We're going to be fine.” I remember my body slowing down a little bit. Contractions were not so close together in the car. There were probably four in that 20-minute car ride instead of six or seven which was really good. People will be like, “You almost had a car baby,” but I didn't. My body knew where I was and I think that's a pretty incredible part of births for me is that my body will slow down and pick up depending on what I need. Meagan: Obviously. Yeah. Kaitlyn: They will slow down. An hour and a half before Sophie was born, I slept for a half hour. Meagan: Oh my gosh. It was starting and then it was like your body needed a break and went to sleep for the night. Kaitlyn: Yep. Take a break. Kick back up. Meagan: We've got to trust our bodies. Kaitlyn: Yeah. That was really cool. I was mind-blown that it happened. But yeah. I got to the hospital, pulled in the parking lot, stepped out of the car, and things picked right back up. I was like, “Okay, we're moving.” I booked it to the front door. Nobody was in the lobby. We sat there for a contraction and I was like, “Nope. Let's go.” We went to the elevator and went upstairs to L&D. We didn't see anybody until we busted into L&D. I let myself be loud. I was like, “All right. Things are intense. I'm going to be as loud as I want to because I do not want to go to triage right now. I want to go to a room and I want to be done.”Meagan: Yeah. I need a room!Kaitlyn: Yeah. I remember Danielle. I don't think it was you. Maybe it was Carly. Maybe it was you. Danielle: Carly was behind me. Kaitlyn: We have a mom. Here. She's in labor. They were like, “Oh yeah, come in.” I was like, “Thank you.” Danielle: Mhmm. Kaitlyn: Glide down the hallway. Glide down the hallway. They brought a wheelchair. I was like, “No. I'm not sitting down. That's not happening.” Danielle: At this point, you were probably already 10 centimeters. Kaitlyn: Um, no. I was probably in transition. I was transitioning. Danielle: You think so?Kaitlyn: Mhmm, yeah because we got to our room and they were right on top of each other. That's when I was like, “Okay. We're at transition. Let's get Heather here now, please,” but I couldn't say that because I was answering all of the questions. I was amazed at how much mental capacity I felt like I had at that point. I'm not sure if that's because things had just moved so fast or what, but I felt like I could answer all of their questions. “No, I don't want a gown. Yes, I want this. No, I don't want that. No, thank you. Yes, please.” I was like, “Nope, that's going to be hard to get on the bed. Sorry.”Meagan: I remember you saying on the video, “Yeah, I know but it's not going to happen.”Kaitlyn: Yes. I was on the other side of the bed first. I tossed off all of my clothes in those little tiny in-between moments between those on top of each other transition contractions. I tossed off my shoes. I tossed off my dress and then moved to the other side of the bed so that he could have a base reading of the heart rate. I remember my doula asking me– I remember seeing Danielle out of the corner of my eye setting up my tripod and being like, “Okay, Danielle's good. I can have a baby now. I just need to document it.” Danielle: I'm good to go now. Kaitlyn: I remember hearing my doula start to fill up the tub because she knew that I liked water and water was helpful. I listened to that and was like, “Mmm, I don't think I'm going to get there.” I remember her asking me, “Kaitlyn, do you feel pushy right now?” I was like, “No, not right now.” Then my water broke literally five seconds later all over my husband's shoes. I was like, “Ha ha, now I feel pushy. Psyche!” Yeah. So then my nurse was like, “I really want to check you. I really want to check you.” I was like, “I'll check myself.” Meagan: She was adamant. Kaitlyn: So I checked and I was like, “Yep. Her head is at a finger's width from my perineum.” She looked at me and then moved to the other side, “What did you say?” I think she was just a little bit in disbelief of, “Wait, are you having a baby? Am I going to be okay?” I could feel her anxiety mount beside me but didn't feel like there was any room for that. I was stoked. Meagan: I can't imagine how you felt because I was feeling it watching it and I'm sure many other people were how she was like, “Well, I'd hate to have you just be 4 centimeters and have your midwife come.” She was feeling anxious. Kaitlyn: I clearly say, “That's not happening too. No, I'm not 4 centimeters. That's not happening.” I'm literally complete and going to push out a baby any minute here. Meagan: Yes. We could feel the angst and I'm sure you could feel it with her next to you, touching you, saying, “Get help in here!” Having those things being said, you were able to just really stay in this space even though all of these other things were happening. Kaitlyn: Mhmm, yeah. I think that was also interesting for me as a people pleaser. Meagan: Okay, so you're a people pleaser person. How do you feel like you were able to disconnect that, “I normally would say to do whatever and follow your direction?” Kaitlyn: That's an excellent question. Meagan: Yeah. I don't want to make it sound like, “Go against your medical provider!”Kaitlyn: I mean, I didn't anticipate that from myself. I did not expect myself to be able to hold boundaries for myself because that's not something that I'm a super expert in.Meagan: Intuitively, it came out.Kaitlyn: It's something I struggle with. My therapist was like, “Don't expect too much of yourself in labor. You're literally pushing out a baby. Rely on your team.” That's why I had my team there was to back me up and talk for me when I didn't feel like talking but somehow, there was just– I don't know if it was because I had thought things through and knew, “I know where you're coming from.” These nurses are there to manage risk and they are trained. Who knows how many things they hear all day long from an OB or some provider who ranted on a nurse for not checking their client before they got there? Meagan: Right, before they arrived so they're feeling angst. Kaitlyn: How many stories have they heard? So I think I came in with that perspective. These nurses are trying to help. They're trying to do their best. They have a very risk-averse perspective. That's their job. It's to manage all of that. Great. I don't have to worry about it then. They're going to be there doing whatever. So I could hear her fear and I feel like, I don't know if it was my subconscious or what, but somehow it was like, “Okay, she's scared. I'm not. I'm going to push out a baby. She's coming. I'm stoked because I'm almost done and I know I can feel that she's here. I've done this before.” It was really helpful because I had done that before. It felt really familiar. I was back in familiar territory. I had done work to know and trust myself a little better to say, “Okay. I know how to make good decisions. I can decide things and now understand what my body is saying about myself. I'm feeling scared. I'm feeling anxious,” and at that moment, it was, “I'm going to have a baby. She is coming and I am excited because she is almost here. It doesn't matter what this person over here is feeling. That's not my job to regulate her emotions. She can do that. She's an adult. My job is to just be here and push out a baby.” That's what I did. I had that pause, that conversation happened all in that pause between, “Okay, I'm complete and pushing,” which maybe happened for a minute. Danielle: Yeah. Kaitlyn: So yeah. It was like, “No, you're not going to check me because I'm going to push out a baby right now. There's no space.” My doula was like, “Okay, where do you want to push?” I was like, “I'm not moving. Right here apparently.” Yeah. It was big. That was the beautiful, beautiful part of this birth was feeling my instincts take over. It was like, “Hey, this is intense, but my body knows exactly what to do,” and feeling her head come down and push on my perineum, and my hands were right there. Then her head was out. I don't even remember everybody being like, “Oh, there's a head.” None of that had any space in my ears. And there were all the other sensations happening. I pushed her out. I remember looking down. I felt like I didn't see anything until I looked down. I was like, “Oh, there's a cord around her neck. I'm going to pull it around her neck and I'm going to pull her up.” I had walked through that step by step with my midwife more to get a feel of, “How are you going to support me because I want to catch my baby?” So my brain knew what was happening. And she was fine. All is well. We're done. Then yeah. Then there was space for joy. I remember laughing. That was amazing. That joy and laughter and then the nurse was like, “Let's sit you down.” I'm like, “Sure. We can sit down now. Now I can do this. I can't move when I have a head at the top of my vaginal canal but I can move now.” We sat down and I just remember looking up at my team and we all just laughed at each other like, “What just happened?” I cried and I laughed and I cried and I laughed. That was amazing. Then I think as soon as all of the checks happened, I could feel my nurse beside me calm down. Her adrenaline spiked and made its course. I feel like she came back to herself and was like, “Well, that was crazy. Let me go get you checked in now.” It was so funny. So that was kind of cool too being like, “Okay, look. Everybody has big feels and if you're not used to this then that's fine.”Meagan: Yeah. You know, I love that you said that about your nurse. You could feel her anxiety. You could feel the tension but at the same time, you weren't going to allow that tension to enter your space when it was so easily able to do. It's so easy to let the tension that is happening in the room enter the body. We know how it can impact our birth and our modes of delivery. Kaitlyn: Absolutely. Meagan: I love that you said, “You're the adult. I know you're an adult. I know you're here. I know your intentions. I know you're here because you care and you want all things to be well, but I'm not letting you project that. I'm putting my wall here. You can be next to me but your space isn't coming into my space. We can be in the same space with different emotions.”Kaitlyn: Your emotions are yours. Mine are mine. Meagan: That's going to be a big takeaway, in my opinion, for this episode so listeners, it's going to be hard. That's a hard thing to do. It's really hard. Kaitlyn: It doesn't always happen and it's okay if it comes in a little bit. Meagan: Exactly. Kaitlyn: That's where your team comes in. That's why I was depending on my doula or was going to depend on my doula but somehow didn't need her to do that and build that wall for me but to be that reminder of, “Hey, where do you want to birth? Where do you feel like pushing? Are you pushing? Let's stay present with yourself. What are you feeling right now?” and letting yourself feel those emotions because it doesn't have to be joyful right away. That's not a requirement for a good birth. That's something that I also worked on. It was like, “Okay, what's a beautiful birth? It does not have to be this painless, joyful thing,” even though Emma's kind of was. It was intense but it was joyful. Meagan: It looked intense. Kaitlyn: And intense. It hurt and it was hard and felt manageable all at the same time. So yeah. Meagan: So incredible. Kaitlyn: That was amazing. And yeah. So happy. My midwife got there seven minutes after Emma was born to help with the placenta. The hospitalist walked in three minutes before that like, “Heather is right behind me on the road. I promise that she's coming.” Meagan: You're like, “It's all right. I'm holding my baby. I'm good. I'm good.” Oh, man. Kaitlyn: She delivered the placenta and laughed with us. She was like, “Oh yep, she wasn't waiting for anybody. That's totally fine.” You didn't miss out on me here. You did fine. I'm not worried. Yeah then everybody left us alone for the most part. That was amazing. Danielle: Yeah, I mean you did so many things postpartum that I don't think many people ever do. You can share more about what you did but the staff really did give you so much space and that was really awesome on my end to see. It was almost like you were at home but at a hospital sort of just hanging out. Your girlies came in and even while your girlies were there, you and Carly were looking at the placenta. There was so much that I don't typically see in a hospital setting and it was really, really cool to see. The energy was just so calm. Overall, so calm, just so happy. Everyone was elated like, “Wow.” Just kind of in complete shock but in the best way. Meagan: Yeah. I'm sure there was an overwhelming amount of joy and again, shock like, “What just happened? But whoa. Wasn't that amazing?” I'm sure. One of the questions we get often actually was kind of what Danielle talked about. They say, “I want to have a VBAC and I really want the out-of-hospital experience, but I don't feel like I can go out of the hospital. I don't feel comfortable or my insurance, or whatnot. Do I really need to?”Kaitlyn: Generally for a VBAC, yeah. Meagan: Absolutely. So what tips would you give for that postpartum and how to create that good postpartum? You intuitively just were here. You were confident in your body's ability which I think is one of the biggest things. You were confident. You're a people pleaser you say, but because you were so confident, I think it made it easier. I don't know you very well, but I think it could have made it easier to not please people because you knew. You knew things were going to be okay. You knew you were here. You were confident in your spot. Sometimes that's hard and we don't have confidence. That's okay too and that's again why we have our team. So we've got our team building confidence, education– these are my takeaways from this episode. Having those conversations with the providers before. You had some really good provider conversations that helped you know what to expect and know that she was truly on your team too. So yeah. Any other tips that you would suggest?Kaitlyn: Yeah. I mean, I went through all of those postpartum details with my midwife like, “Okay. I want to birth the placenta attached to my baby. I don't want to cut the cord for a while. I want that to be calm and unrushed. I don't want to worry about it right away. I'm in no rush for you cut that link quite yet.” Meagan: Which in the hospital doesn't happen a ton. Usually, they cut the cord as soon as they deliver the baby. Kaitlyn: My provider had never done that before. My provider had never delivered the placenta attached to baby. Meagan: Oh, see? Yeah because that's not very common. Kaitlyn: She was like, “I've never done that before. Can I clamp it first?” I was like, “No, let's just let it be.” She was like, “Oh, okay. If that's what you want then that's fine.” She knew that was important to me and was one of the things on my backup plan if a Cesarean was ever going to be in the cards that if nothing is emergent, let's keep the placenta attached. That would be really meaningful to me. She knew that and I knew that she would advocate for that for me. Meagan: And that is okay to not have it be attached.Kaitlyn: It ended up having the placenta attached for two hours. She left it in the bucket next to me. I was like, “Yeah, it can right here. It's fine.”  Then they were like, “Okay, call the nurse when you're ready to cut the cord and do the newborn exam.” I was like, “Great. We'll let you know. Thanks.” So we called them about two hours later like, “Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready for my placenta prints.” I also do a print with paper and blood and do a tree of life. It's kind of hard to describe in the audio but my doula and I nerded out over my placenta and did that while my husband was with my girly doing all of the newborn exam stuff. That was so fun. Meagan: Awesome. Kaitlyn: Yeah. I had my mom bring my older girlies in and they were so, so cute. “We are so excited to be here with you.” They wanted to hold her so we got that family time together too. I had to really convince them to leave before bedtime. That was hard. Meagan: I'm sure. Kaitlyn: And then yeah, I took a bath postpartum before we moved to the postpartum rooms and that was awesome. Danielle and my doula and I just sat there in the bathroom processing what had happened. Meagan: Yeah. Kaitlyn: Okay, what just happened? Did that happen? Did this happen? When did this happen? Did that really happen? And just being together. I loved how unrushed that felt and that nobody was in a hurry. Everybody was chill. They'd check on things and make sure all was well, but they filled that role and then I had my emotional support team to be with me. So sorry, I don't know if that was too much but that was all amazing. Yeah. It was that kind of experience that I loved from my out-of-hospital birth was the team filled up the tub for me and asked if I wanted to take a bath. I was like, “Yes. That would feel glorious.” So I stuck that in my birth plan. I would love to take a bath postpartum.Meagan: I'll never forget the first shower after I had my baby. It really was so wonderful. It just makes you feel fresh and clean and new. You know? Kaitlyn: Mhmm. Meagan: It's a lot. Your body just went through something pretty intense so I'm sure that felt lovely and probably helped the cramps. Kaitlyn: Yes. Postpartum cramps are more annoying than the labor ones in my opinion especially because they get more intense after each child. That was also my birth plan. And then postpartum, give me IBUprofen as fast as possible because those stink and I want to enjoy myself. Then it took them an hour and a half to get me admitted so that didn't happen but that's okay. Meagan: Darnit. Kaitlyn: It's fine. Meagan: Well, thank you so much. So much. There are so many nuggets within this episode and listeners, I know it's not a VBAC story but wow. Wow. How amazing can it be? It can be so amazing. We know that it isn't always like this. We know that this is not every birth story out there and it is a little bit more rare but it doesn't have to be either. It doesn't have to be. We can create those teams. We can talk with our providers and have a solid plan. We can trust our body, believe in our body, and believe in our ability. We can advocate for ourselves. We can block out the stresses of others and not let them into our space. There are so many things here that we can do. A big takeaway too is that even if it doesn't end in the actual result that you're wanting, maybe the VBAC isn't the result. But even if that isn't, if you are an active participant of your birth and you are truly going through this and it's not just letting people make you get on the bed, make you get a cervical exam when your baby's pretty much coming out and doing all of these things, you will feel more empowered about the decision and hopefully will be more included in the decision made in the end. Kaitlyn: Mhmm, yeah. And if that's something you value, being in control and in charge of your body and decision-making in your birth process, then yeah. That's possible however it goes.Meagan: It's possible. Yes. Also just remember there's no wrong way to birth, guys. You don't have to show up last minute and have a baby. You don't have to. You can go in and be induced and you can have an epidural and you can still have these beautiful experiences. Truly, you really can but yeah. I feel like there are some golden nuggets within this episode and I just want to thank you guys both again for being here, taking the time, and sharing this remarkable video. It really inspired the world obviously. Obviously, it's inspired the world and we're excited to share this episode with our followers. Kaitlyn: Thank you. Meagan: Thank you. Danielle: Yes, thank you so much for having us. This has been amazing. ClosingWould you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan's bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-vbac-link/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Never settle. The five star candidate is out there. Never settle for less than five star,” shares Danielle Mulvey, chief curator of The ALL IN Company. Danielle is a flight attendant turned entrepreneur whose 25 years of entrepreneurial experience has led her to cracking the code on hiring and retaining the best employees. She has created The 5 Star Employee Rating System which is a checklist and system that ensures employers are consistently hiring 5 star employees. Today, Danielle joins host Kiley Peters to talk about how to staff an all-star team.A five-star employee is an employee who is in the top 15% of available talent for a specific position. It is a role-specific classification, because someone may be a five-star employee in one position and a two-star employee in another. Statistically, one out of every seven candidates is a potential five-star employee, which means you need to cast a wide net and have a large candidate pool in order to catch multiple five-star candidates. The system boils down to a checklist of 5 criteria for determining a candidate's star rating. These criteria are alignment with core values, analyzing the 11 universal qualities of a five-star employee, checking aptitudes and skills, running success metrics, and return on payroll. By using this checklist, you can make sure you are hiring the right person for every position.Staffing an all-star team requires a detailed recruitment process. It is important to automate as much of this as you can, so that you are not wasting your time interviewing lower star candidates. By filtering out the employees who are not the best fit, you will have a better chance of consistently recruiting five star candidates. There are plenty of incredible candidates out there, so never settle for less than five stars. Quotes“You want to have the job boiled down to three to five key responsibilities. And then for those three to five key responsibilities, you want to have success metrics. You want to quantify what success looks like for those key responsibilities.” (13:31-13:47 | Danielle)“You want to make sure that the individual is producing a 3x minimum return on their payroll or their salary. So if you're paying someone $50,000 a year, they should be producing $150,000 In impact on the revenue sales of the company.” (15:06-15:22 | Danielle)“Despite what the media is saying, there are plenty of great candidates out there.” (23:26-23:31 | Danielle) “Never settle. The five star candidate is out there. Never settle for less than five star.” (30:20-30:28 | Danielle)LinksConnect with Welcome to Eloma Instagram: @welcometoelomaWebsite: WelcometoEloma.comWeekly Email Newsletter: bit.ly/RIXEmail Connect with Danielle MulveyLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielle-mulvey-66a315/Instagram: danielle__mulveyWebsite: Theallincompany.com Connect with KileySocial: @kileypeters + Linkedin.com/in/kileypetersWebsites: RAYNEIX.com...

Bios:Ernest Gray Jr. is the pastor of Keystone Baptist Church located in the West Garfield Park neighborhood of Chicago.  He is a graduate of the Moody Bible Institute with a degree in Pastoral Ministries, and a graduate of Wheaton College with a Master's Degree in Biblical Exegesis.  He completed his PhD coursework at McMaster Divinity College and is currently completing his thesis within the corpus of 1 Peter. Mr. Gray has taught in undergraduate school of Moody in the areas of Hermeneutics, first year Greek Grammar, General Epistles, the Gospel of John and Senior Seminar. It is Mr. Gray's hope to impact the African American church  through scholarship. Teaching has been one way that God has blessed him to live this out.  Ernest is also co-host of the newly released podcast Just Gospel with an emphasis upon reading today's social and racial injustices through a gospel lens. www.moodyradio.org    Jen Oyama Murphy  "My love of good stories led me to Yale University where I received a BA in English. Upon graduation, I felt called to bring individual stories into relationship with the Gospel Story, and I have worked in the areas of campus and church ministry, lay counseling, and pastoral care since 1989. Over the years, I sought a variety of ongoing education and training in the fields of psychology and theology, including graduate classes at The Seattle School of Theology & Psychology and Benedictine University. I also completed the Training Certificate and Externship programs at The Allender Center, and I previously held roles on their Training and Pastoral Care Team, as Manager of Leadership Development, and most recently as the Senior Director of The Allender Center. Believing that healing and growth happens in the context of relationship, I work collaboratively to create a safe coaching space of curiosity and kindness where honesty, care, desire, and imagination can grow. Using my experience and expertise in a trauma-informed, narrative-focused approach, I seek to help people live the story they were most meant for and heal from the ones they were not. I am passionate about personal support and development, particularly for leaders in nonprofit or ministry settings, including lay leaders who may not have a formal title or position. I'm especially committed to engaging the personal and collective stories of those who have felt invisible, marginalized, and oppressed. I love facilitating groups as well as working individually with people. I currently live in Chicago with my husband, and we have two adult daughters.Rebecca Wheeler Walston lives in Virginia, has completed  Law School at UCLA, holds a Master's in Marriage and Family Counseling, is also a licensed minister. Specializing in advising non-profits and small businesses. Specialties: providing the legal underpinning for start-up nonprofits and small businesses, advising nonprofit boards, 501c3 compliance, creating and reviewing business contracts.TJ Poon serves with Epic Movement, where we both serve on the People & Culture Team (HR). TJ is the Director ofPeople & Culture and and also serves on Epic's leadership team to provide her leadership, wisdom, vision and direction for the ministry.Danielle:SO on screen and feel free to add to your introductions. Uh, Ernest, um, Dr. Gray is someone I'm met Yeah. Um, on screen during one of our cohort, um, virtual weekends and just listening to him talk, I think he was in the Caribbean when he was giving us the lecture mm-hmm. and talking about theology, and I was frantically taking notes and eventually resorted to screen shooting, like snapping pictures of the screen as he was talking. Uh, and then like quickly texting some friends and my husband to say, Hey, I was learning this that. And so that was kinda my introduction to Dr. Gray. And then we of course had a chance to meet in Montgomery. Um, yes, my respect just, uh, grew for you at that point. Um, the ability for you to be honest and be in your place of location Absolutely. And show up and show up to present, it felt like a theology that had life, and that feels different to me. So, um, thank  Dr. Ernest Gray:Thank You for that.  Thank you for that. No, I'm, it's a pleasure to join you all. I, I see some familiar faces and I'm excited to be with you all, and, um, yeah, I'm, um, yeah, I'm, I'm thankful that you thought me, um, thought my voice would be, uh, would be relevant for this conversation. So I'm, I'm grateful to be here and, um, yeah, I'm, I'm here to, um, to both participate and to, um, to learn as much as I can in this moment, so thank you.  Danielle:Mm. You're welcome. Um, and then there's Rebecca Wheeler Walton who is the boss, and she's both smart and witty and funny and kind and extremely truthful in the most loving ways, and so have highest regard for her. Back when I answered the phone, Luis would be like, Is that Rebecca  Yeah. Um, yeah, and tj, uh, TJ had gotten to know TJ over the last year and, um, you know, she's kind of introduced as like an admin person, but I've quickly learned that she, her heart and her wisdom are her strongest attributes and her ability just hang in the room in a tough conversation, um, has, I've just had an immense respect and hope for, for the future by, in getting to know ut j mm-hmm. touching. Yeah. And then at the top, y'all on my screen is Jen Oyama Murphy. She was my first facilitator at The Allender Center. Um, and she showed up in her body and her culture, and I was like, Man, that is freaking awesome. Um, and I wanna, I wanna do what she's doing with other people in this world. Um, Jen loved me and has loved me, and I don't think it can be overstated how wise and patient she is. Um, and just like when I say the word intuition, I mean it in a sense of like, deep wisdom. And, and that's, that's like, I keep searching. Like I wanna have access to that me. So, so thank you, Jen. Yeah.  Jen Oyama Murphy :Hmm. Gosh. Thank you, Danielle. Thanks. Well, I'm, I feel very privileged to be a part of the conversation, so thanks for inviting me.  Danielle:Yeah. So, I mean, I, Ernest you probably didn't get a chance to watch this clip, but it's this clip we're not gonna show. We talked about it. It's about, um, it's the border and there's like a three minute time, um, like timer for people to cross the border and hug each other and interact with one, one another on the southern border. And so there's like a tiny clip of this here. And, um, it's Latinx Heritage Month, and it felt really important to me to have a diverse conversation around repair, because Latin X is, um, Asian, it's black, white, it's European, it's white, it's indigenous. And I feel like, you know, in this conversation, what does repair look like for a Latinx person? And what, what does arriving, you know, to heaven mean, you know mm-hmm.  Dr. Ernest Gray:Indeed.  Danielle:So, yeah. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. And I have the slides up, but I, you know, I wanna hear your all thoughts on, on it, you know? Do you mind hitting the next slide, Tj?  Dr. Ernest Gray:Very good.  Danielle :Do you want me to keep moving? ? Yeah. Um, this is this guy that isn't red in, uh, Western psychology, although he was European descent and lived in El Salvador. He was murdered by, um, CIA operatives in El Salvador. And, uh, he was a liberation psychologist. And partly part of the reason he wasn't as well known here is because he gave almost all his lectures in Spanish on purpose. Hmm. Because he wanted to be rooted in a Latin American tradition. Um, and so I thought it was important to just lay the foundation for what rupture and repair means. He had a real vision for psychology to be a liberating movement, not just one that maintains like, Here, let me get you healed so you can function in this oppressive system. Like, um, yeah.  Dr. Ernest Gray :You know, I think about that kind of, um, movement, which seems to me has always been very much so a part of, you know, this resilience, this resilience push amongst indigenous people, groups, communities. It, it, it is a, it is a sense to regain their, um, their humanity when they've been trampled on, when that humanity has been trampled on. And so there are different epox I think that I've seen as of recent, um, where we see that this has come to a head. You know, I'll never forget the, in the, the ministry of, um, Dr. Cera Na Padilla, um, who was, who just passed a couple of years ago. And, um, I was fortunate to have a class by him, but it was his eyeopening class, uh, a world Christian perspective that gave me the ability to, um, um, hear just how liber the gospel can be and how restorative to the humanity of people groups that have been trampled upon, uh, actually is.  So I think that repair in many ways is just the, is just the acknowledgement that, hey, something in me is not right. And, um, it's not any one person. It feels as though this is a, um, this is the water in which I'm swimming, Like the water I'm in is like rotten. Um, and, and I wanna be rejuvenated through a, a water that, that refreshes and rejuvenates my life. Um, and that, that that water that it seems to be about is my aka the systemic kind of components that have trampled upon, um, indigenous groups. But that first step is acknowledgement, saying, Hey, um, something's broken in me. And it's not any one person. It's more of a system. It's more of the water in which I'm in. Um, that needs to be, uh, ameliorated. It needs to be, um, you know, I, I need it. It, I can't live like this. I can't, I can't, I can't live like this anymore.  Um, I think as well, there's, there's a lot of things that I think are many, very much so, um, um, you know, kind of tied to this, this equilibrium. I think, um, when I, when I hear about these struggles and I hear about how people are trying to, um, go for at least make sure that they are, um, pursuing their inherent dignity and worth it, it, it shouldn't seem as though it, it's such a, um, a, um, there's so much resistance to that work. I mean, where, as human beings, we really want to be affirmed. We wanna be loved, we wanna be cherished, very, very basic things. Um, but to have, but to have resistance to that amongst systems also shows that we, we've got to pull together to be able to make a, uh, a concerted effort towards bringing back a type of, um, um, regenerative and healing kind of ethic to our communities that are shattered, that have been broken.  And I, and I, and I, and I, and I personally see this right now as it relates to, you know, my community, which is African American, and I personally feel this, especially when I think about, um, people who are in survival mode and making bad choices. I always wanna pause and, and tell people, Listen, do not, don't, don't blame the victim. I mean, you're looking at William Ryan's book here as Right in front of me blaming the victim, Right. And I, I don't wanna, I don't wanna blame the victim because they don't, people don't wake up in the morning and think, you know, I wanna go out here and commit crime. I wanna do things I don't want, I don't wanna do these things just because I'm inherently, um, you know, um, malevolent person. No, I wanna do these things cause I'm, I'm trying to survive.  And, and it, and there, that signals to me as well that there's something broken, uh, in the social order. And that these communities in particular, the most vulnerable ones, uh, shouldn't be subjected to so much, um, to, to these things, to, to where they have to resort to violence, crime, or, um, you know, pushing against laws, unjust laws, if you will, uh, that people see is, um, oppressive. Shouldn't we should demo dismantle the laws that, that create these things. So that was a very, Forgive my thought, forgive my, um, thought, thought there, but I, I just wanted to kind of think and, and draw out some, some, some broad strokes there.  Jen Oyama Murphy:Yeah. I, I resonate with that a lot, Dr. Gray. I mean it, like, we've all been trained in kind of this narrative, um, therapeutic way of working with people. And so much of my experience has been looking at that story only as that story and not being able to look at it within a culture, within a system, and even within the context in which that story is being read. So if you are a person of culture in the group, you probably are at best, one of two in a group of eight mm-hmm. . And that has a story and a system all to itself. So even the process of engaging someone's story, even if you are mindful of their culture and the systemic story that that's in, you're also then in a, in a story that's being reenacted in, in and of itself, you know, that, um, I mean, Danielle and Rebecca know cuz they were in my group.  Like, you, you have best are one of two. And even within that too, you're probably talking about two different cultures, two different systems. And so that sense of, um, having repair, healing feel really contained to not just your story, but then a dominant structure within where that healing is supposed to happen. Like, it's, it's the water. Most of us have swarm in all our life, so we don't even know right. Where the fish that's been in that water all the time. And so we don't even know that that's happening. And so when, when the healing process doesn't seem like it's actually working, at least for me, then I turn on myself, right? That there's something bad or wrong about me, that, that what seems to be working for everyone else in the room, it's not working for me. So I must be really bad or really broken.  And it doesn't even kind of pass through my being of like, Oh, no, maybe there's a system that's bigger than all of us that's bad and broken. That needs to be addressed too. So I, I love what this cohort is trying to do in terms of really honoring the particular personal story, but also then moving out to all the different stories, all the different systems that are connected to that personal story. I'm, I'm grateful for that. And it's hard work, hard, hard, complicated work that it's full of conflict, Right. And math, and it's not gonna have five steps that you can follow and everything's gonna work out well for, for everyone. I mean, it's, it's gonna be a mess. You guys are brave.  Dr. Ernest Gray:This final statement here about overthrowing the social order not to be considered as pathological. Um, you know, that, that, that last part there, uh, the conflicts generated by overthrowing the social order not to be considered pathological people. I mean, I think that there's a sense that people really don't want to have to resort to this language of overthrow if these systems were not malevolent from the very first place. Right. And, and I think about this, how, how the exchange of power has become such a, has created such a vacuum for, um, the most vulnerable groups to be, um, um, you know, maligned taken advantage of, pushed under the bus or where's eradicated, um, without, with, you know, with impunity. And I think about that, that there, there has to be, in many ways when we see the e the various, um, TIFs and the various, um, contests that arise around the, around the globe, there seems to be a common theme of oppressive oppression, power abuse, um, and then it's codified into laws that are saying, Well, you're gonna do this or else.  And I guess that's, it's, it's almost as if there's a, a type of, um, expectation that this is, this is the only means that which we have to overthrow social orders that need to be, um, uh, eradicate need to be done away with. So, so there's, there's a lot of truth to this, this, this, this last part especially as well. Um, but I, I think that's what we see, um, constantly. One of the things that's popping in my mind right now is the ACON in South Africa. Um, and they're, they're dominant, The Dutch domination of South Africa and the indigenous group there, the, the South Africans, um, of af of, of, um, of black descent and how their struggles have ha have, you know, just constantly been, um, you know, so, so, so rife with tension and there's still tension there. And so it just takes on a different form.  I, I think that there's a lot of things that we can learn from the various contests, but we might, when we strip away layers of the onion, we might find that a lot of it is the way in which this power dynamic and power exchange, or lack thereof, is actually going on. Um, and again, we can call that what we want to, we can say it's Marxist. We can say it's, um, you know, um, critical, but critical theory helps us to, helps us with some of this to see in which power way in which power is leveraged and the abuse of it. Lots of it.  Rebecca W. Walston :I mean, I think, um, Ernest, if I can call you back if I've earned right quite yet, maybe not . Oh,  You got that right . Um, I, you know, I think what, what what hits me about your statement is, is, is the sense that, um, that there's that power and a sense of overthrow inextricably tied together in ways that I, I don't think they should be, I do not think that they were meant to be. Um, and I, it, it makes me think of a conversation that I had with the Native American, uh, uh, um, friend. And we were, we were together in a group of, um, diverse people watching, um, a documentary about a group of multi-ethnic, a multi-ethnic group engaging around race and racism. And we were watching the, um, this group of people sort of engage about it. And, um, I was, by the time the thing was over, like I was full on like angry, all kinds of things activated in me a around the Black American experience.  And I turned to this Native American guy sitting next to me, and, and I said, I'd like to know from you, what is your version of 40 acres in a mule? A and, and I said, you know, in, in my community, like, we have a thing about 40 acres in a mule, that kind of encapsulates a, a, a sense of what was taken from us as, as enslaved Africans, and some sense of what it means to, to start to repair that breach, right? And, and to give some sense of restitution. And it's codified in this sense of 40 acres and mule given to freed, uh, newly freed Africans as, as a way to, to launch into a sense of free existence. And I said to him, If I were you, I'd be like, pissed. Yeah. I, as an indigenous man, like, I'd want all of my stuff back, all of it, all of the land, everything. Like all the people, everything, everything. And so, I'd like to know from you, what is your version of 40 acres in the mill? What's your measurement of what it would look like to start to, to repair and to return to indigenous people? What was taken from them?  Hmm. And this man looked me dead in my face and said, We, we have no equivalent because the land belongs to no one. It was merely ours to steward, so I would never ask for it back.  Dr. Ernest Gray:Wow. Floored. Mm-hmm.  Rebecca W. Walston:A and I'm still by that it's been maybe six, seven years. And I've never forgotten that sentiment and the sense that, um, I, I wanted to sit at his feet and learn and not ask more questions. I just, and just the sense of like, what could my people learn from the indigenous community and how might it allow us to breathe a little deeper and move a little freer it? And so I, you know, I hope you guys can hear that as not like a ding against my community and what we're asking for, but just a sense of for how another people group steps into this question of rupture and repair that is radically different from, from my experience, and causes me to pause and wonder what must they know of the kingdom of God that would allow them to hold that kind of, that kind of sacred space that feels unfamiliar to me,  Dr. Ernest Gray:That is quite revolutionary. And if are representative of this type of, and again, those are just, those are just the terms we use to, to talk about repair and, um, and re restoration. I wonder if the, if see what I, what I'm struggling with is that what we are, what we wrestled through as an African American context was, and the vestiges is of, um, ownership. It's ownership and, um, ownership of bodies and ownership of land. And the indi, the aboriginal people of America, the Native Americans, they have this really robust sense of it belong. If that's the case that belongs to no one, my next question would be then, and again, if I'm thinking about ownership, well, that it's the damning sense of what ownership did to their communities, how they were decimated, how they were ransacked, how, how, um, you know, the substance abuse has ran rampant.  So if from, if it were me, I would ask a follow up question to this individual and ask why. Well then if the land is not an issue and it's not a, it's not a monetary thing that needs to be repaired, what about the damage? How will we go about putting a value upon or putting some type of thing upon the decimation of, of communities, the, um, the homes. Let's take, you know, Canada is r in pain, especially with the Catholic church and what was done in certain orphanages. Okay. And so, um, if not a monetary thing, what would be the re another response to repair the brokenness that the people have experienced? And I, and I, I don't, I understand the land is one thing, but there's also a people that have been shattered absolutely, absolutely shattered. And, and I think that still remains a question for me.  And again, it's a perennial question that is affecting multiple communities. Um, but these are felt more acutely, especially as, um, you know, Africans, uh, in the transatlantic route. And, and, and aboriginal native Americans who were, who are, um, you know, no one discovered them here. But this ownership piece is something that I think is what is inherent to whiteness, and it has created this vacuum. And why we need to have a sense of, um, you know, how it impacts every single debate. Every single debate. I would go down a rabbit trail about, you know, gospel studies and New Testament studies, but that's just, it's all, it's there too. It's, it's right there, too.  Danielle:TJ, can you hit the next slide? I think we're into that next slide, but I think what I'm hearing, and then maybe Jen has a, a follow up to this, is, I, I think part of my response from the Latinx community is we're both perpetually hospitable and perpetually the guest. Mm. Mm-hmm. We don't own the house. Mm. And we, and yet there's a demand of our hospitality in a house that's not ours. Mm. And there's a sense of, I think that comes back to the original cultures that we come from, of this idea that you showed up here, let me give you food. Let me, let me have you in, let me invite you in. And in the meantime, you took my, you took my space and, and you put a, you put a stake in it that said, Now this is mine and you're my guest. And now there's different rules, and I may be polite to you, but that does not equal hospitality. Right. And so, and I don't know, I don't have the resolution for that, but just this feeling that, that Latinx communities are often very mi migratory. Like, and, you know, we have, then you get into the issue of the border and everything else. But this idea that we, we don't own the house, and yet there's a, there's an, there's a demand for our hospitality wherever we go.  Rebecca W. Walston:What's your sense, Danielle, cuz you said, um, both there's a demand on the hospitality and also something of that hospitality hearkening back to your indigenous culture from Right. In the place where you're not a guest, you're actually at home. So is that a both and for you  Danielle:Mm-hmm. , because I think that's the part that's, that's robbed the meaning, The meaning that's made out of it is robbed. I think sometimes the hospitality is freely given. And, and that's a space where I think particularly dominant culture recognizes that. Right. And so there's, there's the ability to take, and then, then there's the complicity of giving even when you don't want to. And also like, then how does a, and this is very broad, right? And the diaspora, right? But the sense of like, the demand, if you don't give your hospitality then at any point, because you're the perpetual guest, they can shut you out and you can never return. So I haven't quite worked that through, but those are some thoughts I was having as you all were speaking.  Dr. Ernest Gray:Mm. I think that's, I think that's very keen, uh, you know, as a keen observation, my wife is, you know, from a Caribbean context, and so there's the hospitality notion wherein it's, I mean, that's just, it's irrespective of what you feel. This is just what you do. And so I think that it's, when it's taken advantage of or hoisted upon people in a way that is saying, Oh, you must do this, that harm can enue. But, um, there's a, there's a, for me, it's, it's, it's really, really foreign to, from the outside looking in to understand how that culture, um, has, um, historically genuflected or just kind of, um, it can become a part of weakness. It can become a part, or it can be become abused. Especially when this is an expectation of the culture. Um, and I think that's where the harm lies, is that there, there has to be some measures of, of like,  When conditions are, are, you know, almost in a sense of like, this isn't automatic. And it, and then there needs to be some kind of, some kind of ways in which it can remain protected. So that's to not be abused by those who know that this is an expectation of the community. Um, but yeah, that's, that's from the outside looking in, it's hard. My only connection is through, you know, my wife and her culture and seeing how that is, you know, I don't care what's going on inside. You know, you're gonna, you're gonna be hospital, You're gonna host, you're gonna continue to be, you're gonna reach out. You're gonna continue to be that person because that's what's expected of you.  Jen Oyama Murphy:I mean, Danielle as a Japanese American. I mean, I feel that bind of, I mean, it's not even perpetual guest for, I think Asians often. It feels like perpetual alien. Um, and, and yet, you know, there are cultural expectations and norms, you know, among the Japanese, around what it looks like to welcome someone into your home, what it means to be gracious and deferential, and that, So there's a whole culture that's, um, informing of a way, a style of relating that I think to Dr. Gray's point can be taken advantage of. Um, and can, I think be in some ways, consciously or unconsciously used by, um, that culture to kind of escape wrestling with the experience of, of marginalization and abuse and trauma. Because there's a culture that can give you some sense of safety and containment and soothing. If you go back to what, you know, um, culturally, I mean, after the internment camps, the incarceration of the Japanese during World War ii, that's exactly like what happened is the, the idea of, you know, being polite, being deferential, working hard, using productivity as a way to gain status and safety, and in some ways, right, taking the bait to, to be, to like out white, white people.  We're gonna be better citizen than the white people. And like, what that cost the Japanese Americans who, if you had asked them what kind of repair did they want, they would say none. We're just so grateful to be able to be in this country. It, you know, the, the grandchildren of the people that were incarcerated that kind of ly rose up and said like, This is wrong. And so it's just, it, it feels so complicated and like such a, such a math, um, in it. And that's where I feel like, um, learning not just the, the white Asian story, right? But having exposure and experiences and relationships with, um, a variety of different ethnicities and being able to learn from their histories, their culture, their way of, um, engaging trauma, working through a healing process, and not staying in a single lane in my culture only anymore than I wanna stay in a single white Western culture only.  But being really open to learning, growing. I mean, my experience with you, Danielle, and you, Rebecca, even in my group, right, opened me up to a whole different way of engaging story and working with the, um, methodology that we had been learning. And I'm so grateful I wouldn't have had to wrestle or contend with any of that if I hadn't been in relationship with both of you who have a different culture than I do, and a different style relating and a different way of responding to things than I do. That was so informative for me in broad slu, um, opportunity to really first own that there is a rupture, and then what it looks, what it could look like to repair. And that I didn't only have two, two options like my Japanese American way or the, the White Western way that I had learned all my life.  Rebecca W. Walston:I resonate with that, Jen. I think that, um, what comes to my mind is the sense of Revelation seven, nine, um, and at the throne of grace at the end of this, that identifying monikers every tribe and every tongue mm-hmm. . And, and it causes me to wonder why that moniker, why is it that the identification that the throne of grace is tribe and come. Right? And, and I think it hints at what you just said, this sense of like, there's a way in which this kind of hospitality shows up in each culture, um, in, in a way that I think each culture holds its own way of reflecting that text, um, in a way that is unique, um, in the sense that we won't have a full and complete picture of hospitality until we have a sense of how it shows up in every tribe and every time. Um, and, and so I love that that image from you of like, what can I learn from, from you as a Japanese American, and what can I learn from Danielle? What can I learn from tj? What can I learn from Ernest and, and how they, they understand, uh, and embody that with, with the sense of like, my picture will be a little bit clearer, a little bit more complete for having, having listened and learned.  And I, I do think we're talking in terms of hospitality about sort of, to me, the connective tissue between a erector and a repair is really a sense of resiliency. And, and it feels to me a little bit like the, there's a way where we can talk about hospitality that is really about, um, something of a God given capacity to navigate a rupture, whether it's individual or collective in a, in a way that allows for hopes, for pushes, for some sense of repair. And, you know, I was listening to Ernest talking, you know, I feel like I can hear Michelle Obama saying, when they go low, we go high. Right? And that is a, that is, it's a, it's a different kind of hospitality, but it feels like, feels like hospitality than the infant, right? It, it feels like I won't give in, um, to, to this invitation to join the chaos. I, I, I will, um, be mindful and thoughtful and intentional about how I move through it so that I don't find myself, uh, joining joining in it, but actually standing against it. And that, that feels very hospitable to me. To, to stand on the side of what is true and right. And honoring and, and, and not not joining the fray.  Danielle:You can see how our collective ruptures that we've all described, and I know TJ, you haven't spoken yet, um, how our trauma rubs up against one another and likely is in a heated moment, is very triggering.  If I'm in a, if Jen and I are in a space where we feel like we have to stay, keep our heads low, because let's say I have a family member, um, who's undocumented, right? Or Jen has a memory of, I don't know, a traumatic experience dealing with dominant culture. And we're with, you know, like you say Rebecca, like our African hyphen American friends, and they're like, Come on, let's go get it. Mm-hmm. , you can feel the rub of what repair might look like, and then there's a fracture between us. Mm-hmm. . If we don't, that's, I mean, and then the hard thing that I've been challenged lately to try to do is stay really close to my experience so I have a sense of self so that I can bring that full self to you and say like, I feel this way, and then I can more, more be able to listen to you if I can express a more truer sense of what I'm feeling. Does that make sense?  Dr. Ernest Gray:Perfect.  I think, I think, um, yeah, I, I, I think about the triggering aspects of how we have been collectively kind of retraumatized. You know, when you think about, you know, this since Trayvon Martin and and beyond here in America with African American context, we've just been trying to figure out how to stay alive and t-shirts keep printing regarding, um, you know, can't go to, can't go to church, can't go to a park, can't do this, can't do that, can't breathe. And it's almost as if it's, it's exhausting. Um, but it's entering into that space with other groups, other communities that creates a sense of solidarity, which is sorely needed. Because we would assume, and we would make this as this assumption, like, Oh, well, you don't have it so bad. That's not true. It looks different. It feels different. And until we can, at the same time, um, I like what you said about own, what we are feeling while we are in that moment, it allows us to at least get it out there so that we can then be active engagers with others and not just have our own stuff, you know, uh, for stalling, any meaningful connection.  I wanna think that there's a sense that, um, because, you know, our expressions in every way, whether it's hospitality or whether it's in the way in which we deal with, um, the various cultural phenomenons that we're closely associated with, is that these create the mosaic. If we, back to Rebecca's idea of Revelation seven, nine, these re these is why I love mosaics is because the full picture of our, um, similar, similarly expressed experiences do not look the same, but when they're all put together, eventually we'll see the, the picture more fully. And I think that that's the key is that it, it's so easy for us to be myopic in a way in which we look at everyone else's, or especially our own, to where we can't see anybody else's. That that creates this isolation, insular kind of isolation idea of, Well, you don't have it as bad as I do. Or they're not as, they're not as shaken as this community or that community or this community. Um, and wherein there's some truth to that, Um, if we're going to regain a sense of human, our full humanity, we've gotta figure out ways to, to do that active listing so that our ours doesn't become the loudest in the room.    

About DanielleDanielle Baskin is a serial entrepreneur and multimedia artist whose work has been featured in The New York Times, The Guardian, NPR, The New Yorker, WSJ, and more. She's also the CEO of Dialup, a globally acclaimed voice-chat app.Links: Dialup: https://dialup.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/djbaskin Cofounder Quest: https://cofounder.quest Personal Website: https://daniellebaskin.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: It seems like there is a new security breach every day. Are you confident that an old SSH key, or a shared admin account, isn't going to come back and bite you? If not, check out Teleport. Teleport is the easiest, most secure way to access all of your infrastructure. The open source Teleport Access Plane consolidates everything you need for secure access to your Linux and Windows servers—and I assure you there is no third option there. Kubernetes clusters, databases, and internal applications like AWS Management Console, Yankins, GitLab, Grafana, Jupyter Notebooks, and more. Teleport's unique approach is not only more secure, it also improves developer productivity. To learn more visit: goteleport.com. And not, that is not me telling you to go away, it is: goteleport.com. Corey: You know how Git works right?Announcer: Sorta, kinda, not really. Please ask someone else.Corey: That's all of us. Git is how we build things, and Netlify is one of the best ways I've found to build those things quickly for the web. Netlify's Git-based workflows mean you don't have to play slap-and-tickle with integrating arcane nonsense and web hooks, which are themselves about as well understood as Git. Give them a try and see what folks ranging from my fake Twitter for Pets startup, to global Fortune 2000 companies are raving about. If you end up talking to them—because you don't have to; they get why self-service is important—but if you do, be sure to tell them that I sent you and watch all of the blood drain from their faces instantly. You can find them in the AWS marketplace or at www.netlify.com. N-E-T-L-I-F-Y dot com.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud, I'm Corey Quinn. It's always fun when I get the opportunity to talk to people whose work inspires me, and makes me reflect more deeply upon how I go about doing things in various ways. Now, for folks who have been following my journey for a while, it's pretty clear that humor plays a big part in this, but that is not something that I usually talk about with respect to whose humor inspires me.Today that's going to change a little bit. My guest is Danielle Baskin, who among so many other things is the CEO of a company called Dialup, but more notably is renowned for pulling a bunch of—I don't know if we'd call them pranks. I don't know if we would call them performance art. I don't know if we would call them shitposting in real life, but they are all amazing. Danielle, thank you so much for joining. How do you describe what it is that you do?Danielle: Thanks for having me. Yeah, I've used a few different terms. I've called it situation design. I've called it serious jokes. I have called what I do business art, but all the things you said, shitposting IRL, that's part of it too.Corey: It's been an absolute pleasure to just watch what you've done since I first became aware of you, which our mutual friend, Chloe Condon first pointed me in your general direction with, “Hey, Corey, you think you're funny? You should watch what Danielle is doing.” That's not how she framed it, but that's what I took from it because I'm incredibly egotistical, which is now basically a brand slash core personality trait. There you have it.And I encountered you for the first time in person—I believe only time to date—at I believe it was Oracle OpenWorld on the expo floor. She had been talking about you a couple of days before, and I saw someone who could only be you because you were dressed as a seer to be at Oracle OpenWorld. The joke should be clear to folks but we'll explain it later for the folks who are—might need to replay that a bit. I staggered up to you with, “Hey, are you Chloe's friend?”Let me give listeners here some advice through counterexample. Don't do that. It makes you look like a sketchy person who has no clue how social graces work. No one has any context and as soon as you said, “No,” I realized, “Oh, I came across as a loon.” I am going to say, “Never mind. My mistake,” and walk away like a sensible person will after bungling an introduction like that. I'm not usually that inartful about these things. I don't know what the hell happened, but it happens often when we meet people that we consider celebrities, and sorry, for some of us that's you.Danielle: [laugh] yeah, also in fairness to you I was probably fully immersed in character being my wizard self, and so I was not there to, you know, be pulled back to reality. For some context, I was at Oracle OpenWorld because I made a thing called same exact name, oracleopenworld.org, but it's a divination conference for oracles, for fortune-tellers, for wizards, for seers, and it happened at the exact same place in time, so there was a whole crew of people dressed up with capes, and robes, and tall pointy hats doing tarot readings and practicing our divination skills.Corey: Now, I could wind up applying about two dozen different adjectives to Oracle, but playful is absolutely not one of them. I would not ever accuse Oracle, or frankly any large company of that scale of having anything even remotely resembling a sense of humor. As someone who does have to factor in the not that remote possibility of getting kicked out of events that I attend, how do you handle that and not find yourself arrested?Danielle: Oh, we were kicked out every single time.Corey: Oh, good good good.Danielle: I've done this for four years. The first year we were kicked out just because we didn't have badges. I made up our own conference lanyard; of course, there's security issues with that. We were pushed out onto the sidewalk, but I wanted to be inside the conference and closer to the building.The next year I did a two-layer conference badge, so I put the real one underneath the fake one so that if security went up to us we had the right to be there. What sort of happened—so, like, the first year we got kicked out was because we were all distributed; maybe there was like 20 of us. Sometimes we were together. Sometimes we were having our own adventures. My friend Brian decided do a séance for the Deloitte team.Corey: Well, that's Deloitte-ful. Tell me more.Danielle: [laugh]. Brian has never done a séance before, but he is a good improv actor and also a spiritual person, so this is, like, perfect for him. As the Deloitte team if they wanted to do a séance they were, like, sure because I think they didn't have anything going—I mean, people are bored at this conference.Corey: Oh, of course, they are.Danielle: Especially if your boss flew you there to stand at your booth and you've been saying the same thing over and over again; you're looking for something interesting. So, he grabs the pillows from a lounge area and little tea light candles and makes a whole circle so that the team can sit down.He's wearing a bright rainbow cape and he stands in the middle and he could have a booming voice if he wants to. So, he just starts riffing and going—he just goes into séance mode, and this was enough to trigger security noticing that something really weird was happening. And when they went—Corey: They come over and say, “What the hell is this?” The answer was “Kubernetes.”Danielle: I had said everyone can blame—if you get in trouble just blame me just say, “I'm doing this with my friend, Danielle,” and have them talk to me. I wanted more people to come and be wizards. I don't want them to worry about it, so I will take all of the issues on me. He said that he should talk to his manager, Danielle, or I don't know.He said something that made it seem we were all part of a company. Which then makes it seem like our whole project was secret guerilla marketing for something. And we didn't pay for booth. We were not selling anything. We were just trolling. Or not troll—I mean, we were having our own divination summit. We were genuinely—Corey: You were virally marketing is the right answer and from my perspective—Danielle: Yeah, no, I wasn't doing viral marketing. They think anything that's unusual and getting people's attention has the ultimate goal of selling something, which it's not a philosophy I live by.Corey: No, it feels like the weird counter-intuitive thing here is the way to get the blessing of everyone from this would've—the only step you missed was charging Deloitte for doing it at their booth because it attracts attention.Danielle: Oh, sure. Oracle should have been paying us a lot of money for entertaining people. Actually, genuinely I had some real heart-to-heart conversations with people who wanted to have a tarot reading about how should they talk to their boss about not listening to them. This is something magical that happens when you are dressed up in costume and you are acting really weird people feel they can say anything because you're acting way more unusual than them, so it sort of takes away people's barriers. So, people are very honest with me about their situation.People had questions about their family. Anyway, I was in the middle of a heart-to-heart tarot reading, and security at Oracle was alerted to find anyone with a cape. Find the wizards and kick them out because they didn't pay to be here. There's some weird marketing thing happen.Corey: “Find and eject the wizards,” is probably the most surreal thing that they have been told that year.Danielle: Oh, yeah. And they didn't know why. The message why I did not transmit to all the security, but they were just told to find us. Two guards with their walkie-talkies in their uniforms went up to me and they had to escort me off the premises. Which means we had to walk through the conference together and I asked them, “Why?” They're like, “We don't know. We were just told to find you.”Corey: Imagine them trying to find you stopping and asking people, “Excuse me, have you seen the wizard?”Danielle: Exactly.Corey: It is hard to be taken seriously when asking questions like that.Danielle: Totally, totally. So yeah, unfortunately, we had to leave and that has consistently happened because I've done it four times. The final year I went, there was a message before the event even started that you're not allowed to wear a cape.Corey: The fact that you can have actual changes made to company policy for large-scale, incredibly expensive events like that is a sign that you've made it.Danielle: It doesn't even point to any particular incident. Yeah, it's cool to have this sort of lore. When I asked in the last year I went, “I asked why can't we wear a cape?” And one of the event organizer security, I don't know what her role was. She said, “There was an incident the previous year.” Which she was talking about me and my friends.Corey: Of course, but that is the best part of it.Danielle: It's just lore than something once happened with these, like, dark spirits that tried to mess up the Oracle conference with their magic.Corey: Times change and events evolve. Years ago I attended an AWS Summit with a large protest sign that said on it AMI has three syllables, and it got a bit of an eyebrow raise from people at the door, but okay, great. Then people started protesting those events for one of the very many reasons people have to protest Amazon, and they keep piling more on that pile all the time which is neither here nor there.I realized, okay, I can't do that anymore because regardless of what the sign says I will get tackled at the door for trying to bring something like that in, and I don't try and actively disrupt keynotes. So okay, it's time to move on and not get myself viewed through certain lenses that are unhelpful, but it's always a question of moving on and try to top what I did previous years. Weren't you also at Dreamforce wearing pajamas?Danielle: I did a few things at Dreamforce. One year I literally set up a tent. They spend millions of dollars on beautiful fake trees and rocks, and also Dreamforce gets taken over every time the event occurs. I did a few things. I thought I should make it seem like this is real nature so I brought camping gear and a tent and just brought a hiking backpack in.Set it up in the middle of the conference floor laying by the waterfall, but there were people in suits networking around me that did not ask me any questions. I just stayed in the tent, but then I decided to list it on Airbnb. So, inside my tent, I was making an Airbnb listing telling people that they could stay at Dreamforce and explore the beautiful nature there, but it took an hour-and-a-half to get kicked out.Corey: The emails that you must have back and forth with places like Airbnb's customer support line and the rest have got to be legendary at this point.Danielle: [laugh] I get interesting cease-and-desists. I wish there was more dialogue. With Airbnb I just got my listing taken down and I couldn't talk to a human, and even when I got kicked out of Dreamforce they wanted me to leave immediately. I totally snuck in; I didn't have a badge or anything. So, I guess they're in the right for that. The second year at Dreamforce I wore a ghillie suit so I hid. So, I stayed a little bit after the conference ended by hiding as a bush.Corey: That is both amazing and probably terrifying for the worker that encountered you while trying to clean up.Danielle: Oh, I mean often employees—like it depends. Some people find my pranks really delightful because it shakes up their day. Security guards also find this amusing. There's some type of organizer that absolutely hates my pranks.Corey: There's something to be said for self-selecting your own audience. One question that I—sure you get; if I get it I know you get it—where it's difficult for people to sometimes draw the line between the fun whimsical things that you do as pranks and the actual things that you do. A great example of this is something you've been doing for, I think, four years now, the decruiter.Danielle: Yeah. The decruiter a service that's the opposite of a recruiter so it is—Corey: At the first re:Invent AWS had a slide that was apparently he made the night before or something and they misspelled security as decurity. From that perspective, what's a decruiter?Danielle: Yes, I love decurity as a way to talk about infiltrating a space, like, “No I'm a decurity officer.” Yeah, decruiter is basically a service where you talk to us to find out if you should quit your job. Instead of finding out if you should work at a place or figuring out what opportunities there are, we discuss the unemployed life—or the inbet—like, being self-employed, between jobs, switching careers, it's a whole spectrum but there's a few recruiters and we're all like very experienced not having an employer or working for a company. And so, we ask people about how would you spend your free time. What's your financial situation? Are you able to afford leaving? It gets pretty personal, but it's highly specific therapy, but we also don't have a high acceptance rate. I've only decruited like 15% people that I've talked to.Corey: Most of them realize that, oh, there's a lot of things I would have to do if I didn't have a job and I'm just going to stay where I am?Danielle: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of people think that as soon as they leave their job a lot of other things in their life will magically transform, or they'll finally be able to do their creative project they've always wanted to do. This is true some percentage of the time, but I always encourage people to do things outside of work and not seek in their whole fulfillment through their job.There's plenty of time where you can explore other ideas and even overlap them to make sure that like when you quit you have things lined up. A lot of people don't know how to answer, “If you suddenly left tomorrow and could just float for three months, what would you do?” If people give me a good answer—and this is similar to an actual job interview I was like, “Why are you excited about working this company?”If people give me a good answer, that's a conversation. A lot of people have no idea, but they're just stuck in a situation where there's things they could do in their outside of work life that would make them feel happier. That's why it's sort of like therapy, but there's a lot of internal company issues that I talk about. A common reason that people want to leave is that they love their role, they love the company's mission, but they do not like their manager, but their manager is really good friends with the CEO and they absolutely can't say anything. This is so common.Corey: They always say people they'll quit jobs they quit managers and there is something to be said for that.Danielle: Yes, it's scary for people to speak up or who do you write a letter to? How do you secretly talk with your team about it? Are you the only one feeling that way? Typically the people that are the most nervous about saying anything are kind of young either in their early 20s and they feel like they can't say anything.I encourage them to come up with a strategy for making change within their corporation but sometimes it's not worth it. If there's tons of other opportunities for them it's not worth them fixing their company.Corey: It's also I think not incumbent upon people to fix their entire corporate culture unless they're at a somewhat higher executive level. That's a fun thing. The derecruiter.com we'll definitely throw a link to that in the [show notes 00:15:49] and I'll start driving people to it when they ask me for advice on these things. Then you decided, okay, that's fun.You're one of those people I feel has a bit of the same alignment that I do which is, why do one thing when I could do a bunch of things? And you decided, ah, you're going to do a startup. What is the best thing that you can do that really can capitalize on emerging cultural trends? That's right. Getting millennial to make phone calls to each other. Tell me about that story.Danielle: Yeah, and it's not just millennials, though I'm millennial. So, a lot of millennials use Dialup. I mean, Dialup started as a project where basically me and a friend set up a robocall between ourselves. So, like a bot would call our phones and if we would pick up we'd both be connected, but neither of us was actually calling each other. So, it was a way to just always be catching up with each other.So, many friends asked me if they could join the robocalls. That was sort of the seat of Dialup is getting serendipitous phone calls throughout the day that connect you to a person that you might know or might want to meet. Because there's overlap of interest or overlap of someone you know. It grew from me and 20 friends to now 31,000 people who are actively using it all over the world and these conversations can be really incredible.Sometimes people stay on the phone for four hours. People have flown out to meet each other. I get notes every day of how a call has impacted someone one. So, that's what I'm up to now, but I'm trying to do more interesting things with voice technology. I just like realized, oh, the voice as a medium it just transports you to other worlds. You have space to imagine.I mean, people listening to this podcast right now they're not seeing us, but they probably are imagining us, what our rooms look like, what we look like. They're imagining the stories that we're telling them without the distraction of video. I want to do more interesting things with intimate audio—not broadcast stuff. Not Clubhouse or Spaces or anything like that, but just more interesting ways to connect people in one-on-ones.Corey: Something I've noticed is that the voice has a power that text does not. It makes it easier to remember that there's a human on the other side of things. It is far easier for me to send off an incendiary tweet at someone than it is for me to call them up and then berate them, not really my style.The more three-dimensional someone becomes in various capacities and the higher bandwidth the communication takes on, I think the easier it is to remember that most people who don't work at Facebook wake up in the morning hoping to do a good job today. Extending empathy to the rest of the world, that's an important thing.Danielle: Yeah, for sure. It's incredible that humans can detect emotional qualities in a voice call. It's hard to describe why, but people can detect pauses and little mutters. You can sort of know when someone's laughing or when someone's listening even though you're missing all of the visual cues.Corey: This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking, databases, observability, management, and security. And—let me be clear here—it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build. With Always Free, you can do things like run small scale applications or do proof-of-concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free, no asterisk. Start now. Visit snark.cloud/oci-free that's snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: Taking a glance at dialup.com, it appears to be a completely free service. You mentioned that it has 30,000 folks involved. Are you taking the VC model of we're going to get a whole bunch of users first and then figure out how to make money later? Sometimes it works super well. Other times it basically becomes Docker retold.Danielle: I've been thinking about this a lot and I swing back and forth. Right now Dialup is its own thing, connecting strangers. It's free though I do have some paying clients because I do serendipitous one-on-ones within organizations. I've got a secret B2B page, and so that is a little bit of revenue. Right now I'm trying to sort of expand beyond Dialup and make a new thing, in which case I am leaning more towards building a sustainable and profitable company rather than do the raise-VC-money-until-you-die model.Corey: I think it's long past time to disrupt the trope of starving artist. What about well-paid artist? It seems like that would inspire and empower people to create a lot more art when they're not worrying about freezing to death. To that end or presumably to that end you are in the process of looking for a co-founder in what is arguably the most Danielle Baskin possible way. How are you doing it?Danielle: Oh, yeah. I could have done a regular LinkedIn post linking to a Google Doc, but that is not my style, and as a self-employed person I can't reach out to old coworkers and be like, “Oh, you're on my team a few years ago. What are you up to now?” So, I'm sort of under-networked and I thought I should make a game that sort of explains what I'm doing, but have people discover the game in an interesting way. So, I bought a bunch of floppy discs—I have a floppy disc dealer outside of LA.Corey: For those who are not millennials and are in fact younger than that—and of course let's not forget Gen X, the Baby Boom Generation, the Silent Generation which I can only assume is comprised entirely of people who represent big companies from a PR point of view because they never comment on anything. What is a floppy disc for someone who was born in, I don't know, 2005?Danielle: Oh, a floppy disk is how you would run software on your computer.Corey: Yeah, a USB stick with no capacity you can wreck with a magnet.Danielle: Yes, it's like a flat wide USB stick, but it only contains—Corey: 1.44 megabytes on the three-and-a-half-inch version.Danielle: I think some of them then went up to 2.88.Corey: Ohh.Danielle: You can't even fit a picture—a modern picture. You could do a super low-resolution pixel art.Corey: This picture of grandma has a whopping eight pixels in it. Oh, okay, great. I guess.Danielle: Yeah. More complex software would be eight floppy disks that you have to insert disk A, insert disk B.Corey: Anti-piracy warnings in that day of ‘don't copy that floppy.' It was a seminal thing for a long time.Danielle: I have it in my game; it says ‘don't make illegal copies of this game.' My game is not literally on the floppy disc. All floppy discs come with pretty interesting artwork on the label. There's a little space for a sticker, and because I have hundreds of floppy disks, I sort of looked at—I had a ton of design inspiration.So, I made floppy discs in the aesthetic of the other ones that say Cofounder Quest—like it's this game—and it leads you to a website. I scattered these in strategic places around the bay area, and I also mailed some to people outside of the bay area. If you stumble across this in person or on the internet, it leads you to this adventure game that's around seven minutes to play.It really explains what I want to do with Dialup, and explains me, and explains my aesthetic, and the sort of playful experiences that I'm into without telling you. So, you get to really experience it. At the end, it basically leads you to a job description and tells you to reach out to me if you're interested.Corey: I was independent for years and I finally decided to take on a business partner. As it turns out, Mike Julian, who's the CEO of The Duckbill Group and I go back ten years, he's my best friend. I kept correcting him. He introduced me as his friend. I said, “No, Mike, your best friend.” Then I got him on audio at one point saying, “Oh, Corey Quinn? He's my best friend.” I have that on my soundboard and I play it every time he gets uppity. That's the sort of nonsense it's important in a co-founder relationship. It is a marriage in some respects.Danielle: Oh, for sure.Corey: It's a business entity. Each one of you can destroy the other financially in different ways. You have to have shared values. The idea of speed-dating your way through finding some random co-founder as a job application, on some level, has always struck me as a little dissonant. I like the approach you're taking of this is who I am and how I go about things. If this aligns then we should talk, and if you don't like this you're not going to like any of the rest of this.Danielle: For sure. I'm definitely self-selecting with who would actually reach out after playing. I also understand. I'm not going to find a co-founder in a few weeks. I'm just starting conversations with people and then seeing who I should continue talking to or seeing if we could do a mini-project together.Yeah, it's weird. It's a very intense relationship. That's why people do end up becoming co-founders with someone that they already know who's a friend. It's possible I already know my co-founder and they've been in front of me this whole time. I think these sorts of moments happen, but I also think that it's cool to totally expand your network and meet someone who maybe has an overlap in spirit, but is someone that you would've never otherwise met. That there could be this great overlap or convergence there. I wanted to cast a very wide net with who this would reach, but it's still going to be a multi-month-long process or longer.Corey: It's not these one-off projects that are the most interesting part to me. It is the sheer variety and consistency of this. During the pandemic I believe you wound up having the verified checkmark badges for houses and fill out this form if you want one and for folks in San Francisco. Absolutely, of course, I filled that out. I read a fairly bad take news article on it of a bunch of people fell for this prank.No, absolutely not. If people are familiar with your work then they know exactly what they're getting into with something like this and you support the kinds of things you want to see more of in the world. I didn't fall for anything. I wanted to see where it led and that's how I feel on everything you do.Danielle: Yeah, you appreciated the joke.Corey: Yeah.Danielle: Yeah, I think people who are familiar with my work understand that I take jokes very seriously. So, it's not simply—like, usually it's not just a website that's like, huh, this was a trick. It's more of an ongoing theater piece. So, I actually did go through all of the applicants for the Blue Check Homes. Oh, for some context, I made a website where you could apply to have a blue verified badge and a plaster crest put on your house if you are a dignified authentic person that lives in the house.So, I'm interviewing—I narrowed it down to 50 people from all the applicants and I'm going through and interviewing people with a committee. I'm recording all of the interviews because I think this will make an interesting mini-documentary. I'm actually making one in installing one, but I'm documenting all of it.When I started it—for a lot of projects I don't have the ending planned yet. I like the sort of joke to unfold on the internet in real-time, and then figure out what the next thing I should do from there is and continue the project in a sort of curious exploratory mindset as opposed to just saying, “All right, the joke is done.”Corey: What is your process for coming up with this stuff? Because for me the most intimidating thing I ever see in the course of a week is not the inevitable cease and desist I get from every large cloud company for everything I do. Rather an empty page where it's all right time for me to write a humorous blog post, or start drafting the bones of a Twitter thread, or start writing my resignation and if I don't come with an idea by the end of it, I'll submit it. Where does the creative process start from with you?Danielle: Yeah. I rarely have creative brainstorming sessions. I'm a person who thinks of a million bad ideas and then there's one good one. My mind leaps to a ton of ideas. I rarely write down ideas. I don't do any sort of—you might imagine I'm in a room of whiteboards and post-it notes, workshopping things and doing creative brainstorm sessions, but I don't.I think I act upon the things that I feel just extremely excited about and feel like I must do this immediately. It's hard to explain, but with a lot of my ideas, I just feel this surge of energy. I have to do this because no one else will do it and it's funny at this moment. If I don't feel that way I kind of don't do anything and see if the idea keeps reemerging. With a lot of ideas I may be thought of it a year ago and it just kept resurfacing, but I don't really force myself to churn out creative projects if that makes sense. People have told me that my work reminds them of Mischief. It's like as a company that puts out a prank on a Tuesday every two weeks.Corey: Not familiar with them, but there have been a whole bunch of flash mob groups, and other folks who affected just wind up being professional pranksters, which I love the concept.Danielle: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I do churn out a lot of pranks and I even have my own prank calendar. I'm not strict with my own deadlines and I also think timing is important. So, you might think of a good idea, but then it's just the spirit of the zeitgeist doesn't want you to do it that week. I improvise the things that I want to launch. I mostly do things that I just feel are rich in something I could explore.Like, with Cofounder Quest I was always on the fence about it because it feels to me annoying to tell people you're trying to hire someone or to put yourself out there and be pitching your startup. So, I was kind of nervous about that, but I also thought if I leave a floppy disk in the park, and then put a picture on the internet it'll lead to something—there's something that it will lead to.It might lead to finding a co-founder. It might lead to meeting interesting people, but also I've never built an interactive game with audio and so I was interested in learning that, but yeah, I tend to land on ideas that I think are rich in terms of things I could learn. Things that I could turn into more immersive theater and things that keep resurfacing as opposed to keeping myself on a strict schedule of creative ideas if that makes sense.Corey: It makes a lot of sense. It's one of those things that it is not commonly understood for those of us who came up in the nose of the grindstone 40 hours a week, have a work ethic. Even if you're not busy look busy. Sometimes work looks a lot more like getting up and going to a coffee shop and meeting some stranger from the internet than it does sitting down churning out code.Danielle: For sure. I think that it is important to continue being in conversations with people. I think good ideas emerge while you're in the middle of talking, and you realize your own limitations and ideas when you have to explain things to other people. While something you're very clear in your head as soon as there's a person you don't know and they ask you, “What are you working on?” You realize, oh, there's so many gaps. It made perfect sense to me, but there's a lot of gaps. So yeah, I think it's important to stay in dialogue and also have to explain yourself to new people instead of just sort of making ideas in a vacuum.Corey: I want to thank you for being so generous with your time and talking to me about all the various things you have going on. If people want to follow along and learn more about what you're up to, where can they find you?Danielle: I post a lot of my projects on Twitter. So, I'm @djbaskin. If you want to play Cofounder Quest, it's cofounder.quest. That is an actual domain. I also have a website daniellebaskin.com, which has a lot of my projects, many of which we didn't discuss. I also do, similar to Oracle OpenWorld, I like to host popup events that involve lots of people trolling. So, if you want to get involved in anything you see I'm always happy to bring more wizards on board.Corey: We will, of course, put links to that in the [show notes 00:31:10]. Danielle, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today.Danielle: Oh yeah, thanks for having me. It was great talking with you.Corey: Danielle Baskin, CEO of Dialup, and oh so very much more. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a long rambling comment applying to be the co-host of this podcast, viewing it of course as a podcasting call.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Tired of constantly trying to grow your business while feeling like you need to copy the “gurus” in order to see success? Today, Danielle Cevallos joins Erin and Rachel to talk about the right way to market your business. She shares everything from why you don't need to replicate what others are doing, why going viral shouldn't be your goal and the right strategies to use to see the ultimate success! The girls talk more about: The one thing that is both a danger and a gift with an online business Two areas where Danielle sees people go wrong in the beginning of their businesses The problem with the “gurus” on social media Actionable steps to get yourself out of imposter syndrome The importance of consistency and truly knowing what your brand is Why slow and steady growth should be what you're aiming for The only way to get clarity on what you truly want long term And so much more! Resources: Website: https://uemarketingmastery.com and unstoppableentrepreneur.com/marketingclub Danielle's Instagram: @daniellemcevallos Erin's Instagram: @the.erin.klein.show Rachel's Instagram: @iamrachelbrooks The Confident Woman Podcast Instagram: @theconfidentwomanpodcast Quotes: “Don't discount the parts of your story that you think are irrelevant.” - Danielle “The cure to imposter syndrome is becoming great. You don't become great until you take action and become an expert at what you do.” - Danielle “You cannot get clarity by standing still. You cannot get clarity by thinking about stuff. You can only get clarity by taking action.” - Danielle “The online world is keeping everybody stuck with tactics without any strategy.” - Danielle “That seems odd that you think you would stand out by becoming a replica of somebody else.” - Danielle --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/theconfidentwoman/message

Budget is often cited as a top reason why families don't travel. Given how many of us are having our budgets squeezed right now, how can we start to save for a future trip? This week we talk to Danielle Desir from The Thought Card podcast and get some insights on turning your dream vacation into a reality. About Danielle Desir Danielle Desir, and she is an author, blogger, podcaster and Founder of The Thought Card, which is an award winning affordable travel and personal finance blog and podcast, empowering financially savvy travelers to make informed financial decisions, travel more, pay off debt and build wealth. She's also the co-producer of Millennial Wealth Builders, a three time grant funded audio docu series highlighting women of color building wealth. Follow Danielle on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook. You can also subscribe to her podcast, The Thought Card or purchase either of her books:  Affording Travel: Saving Strategies For Financially Savvy Travelers Planning Local Trips During A Pandemic  Tips for How to Save for Travel Start with creating a monthly household budget so you are tracking how much you spend (and how much you can spend) in different categories Sit down at least quarterly and review your budget to see where you might need to adjust Create a wants versus needs list and see what you can take off of your wants list and do without Streaming services, gym memberships, ordering in using delivery services...these are common expenses that can be reduced Create a separate bank account that will be your travel fund, so you it isn't intermingled with money that you use to pay bills or daily spending Look for a bank account that you can open with little or no money to start, that doesn't charge a lot of fees or have a lot of restrictions, such as with Charles Schwab or Ally online banking See Danielle's tips on why you need multiple bank accounts Take a look at your top three expenses. Usually you can't reduce your housing expenses but can you reduce your transportation expenses (especially now when more of us are working from home) or food expenses (avoiding expensive delivery services, cooking more, etc.) Automate as much as possible using direct deposit, including contributions to your travel fund Danielle recommends the Digit app. It will automatically take a set amount out of your account everyday and put it into different funds that you set up for different expenses (such as travel) Have your family buy into your savings plan and name your bank accounts for that specific trip you are saving for to give everyone an incentive to save for that purpose Make sure you educate your kids about how to manage a budget and talk about spending decisions Think about what you value when you travel to determine where to spend your money. For example, do you prefer to have a better hotel experience or more money to spend on activities but you don't need a luxury air experience To find affordable airfare, Danielle recommends SecretFlying.com for finding cheap deals online Signing up for airfare deals emails lets you establish a baseline of flight costs to particular destinations, so you know whether or not you are getting a deal when you are ready to book, as well as helps you find those special deals that you can jump on when available TheFlightDeal.com and The Points Guy also offer daily flight deal emails. For hotels or package combination deals with flights, hotels and activities, Danielle recommends TravelZoo. TravelZoo is especially good when looking for deals to China. They have a Wednesday top 20 list Gate 1 Travel also has a weekly deal list every Monday and they do both independent travel and packaged group trips You can often find good deals even in expensive locations if you travel off season Lisbon and Mexico are very affordable international destinations Traveling locally is also a great way to travel now and you can save money on transportation If you are using an Airbnb or vrbo now, be sure to start looking about 4-5 months earlier. Fees and rates have increased recently because of demand and cleaning costs Local hotels, especially in towns/cities that don't usually cater to leisure travelers are very affordable right now For those traveling locally, be sure to check each state's travel and quarantine restrictions Full Episode Transcript [00:00:00.120] - Kim Here's some tips for filling up your piggy bank for your next trip.   [00:00:15.730] - Announcer Welcome to Vacation Mavens, a family travel podcast with ideas for your next vacation and tips to get you out the door. Here are your hosts, Kim from Stuffed Suitcase and Tamara from We3Travel.   [00:00:30.550] - Kim Tamara, we are fast forwarding through 2021. Some of us knew it wouldn't be a big reawakening. But I can't even believe that we're in February. So have you been thinking about travel? Do you see hope on the horizon? Are you making any plans yourself?   [00:00:48.580] - Tamara Well, I'm definitely thinking about it. It's kind of all I can think about because otherwise I'm just so bored. You know, the other day was Groundhog Day and it feels like that. Like every day one of my friends had texted me and saying, like, how are you doing? And I'm like, you know, same old, same old.   [00:01:05.290] - Tamara She's like, pretty much like work, work out, cook, eat, TV, sleep, repeat. But I'm starting to think about it. I've started to look into a couple of things I think I have mentioned before that like our Greece trip, but I doubt it's going to happen.   [00:01:19.900] - Tamara So I'm trying to come up with other kind of backup plans and we're still kind of hoping that we can go look at some colleges this spring. So we're looking into that and booking things tentatively. Everything is like, if things are going well, so I guess it's written in pencil, not in pen.   [00:01:39.940] - Kim Yeah. I felt all excited. We, you know, attended a conference recently, virtually, of course. So our listeners don't get shocked. But it was just nice to talk about travel again. But it really it made me excited and I would love to plan a trip for spring break and do something. But I'm kind of torn on, you know, will California like, we've done the road trip to California, a few spring breaks and it's always such a nice trip and I'm tempted to do that again. However, California right now doesn't want people from out of state and even people in state are not supposed to go without like 100 some miles from their house.   [00:02:21.400] - Kim And so I'm kind of torn on do I make plans or because I'm kind of tired of canceling stuff, it's it's almost discouraging. So I'm almost in a holding pattern.   [00:02:31.000] - Kim I thought about booking a Lake Front Cabin or something on Airbnb, where for spring break we could just go and relax and bring Sophie and just kind of get out of our space. But we you know, we have this nice backyard now and some of our space, we live on a lake. And so, I mean, we're not on the lake, but we're, you know, very close.   [00:02:52.510] - Kim So it seems kind of stupid to spend money to go have kind of a lifestyle that we already sort of have. And yeah. So I'm just torn. I guess I don't really want to cancel anything. I don't know what to book. I don't I still don't know. I probably need to just make a tentative plan of doing something in state, even if it's a weekend getaway, just kind of having a hotel stay again. It was so nice when we did that for Christmas. We went to one of our local hotels and did a shopping trip and just kind of stayed in the hotel. And it was it was nice. It was nice just to get out of our house for a little while. But yeah, I guess the cancellation is holding me back.   [00:03:27.910] - Tamara I brought that up to Hannah recently. Like, what about doing like a staycation at a hotel? And she's like, well, it's like dumb to spend the money. And part of me feels like, yeah, you know, I would like to save it for like real travel. But on the other side of the coin, like, I do know that it's just been so long that you forget. But I do know that every time we have gotten away, you know, even for a weekend, we always look at each other and we're like, we feel like we're so far away. Like we feel like everything changed so much. Like, you know, it's just so nice to have that change of scenery. So I do think we're all craving it right now. But it is definitely a cost consideration, right.   [00:04:06.580] - Tamara Because like you said, do you want to still do those fun things when they come up? And I know the episode we're talking about today with Danielle is all about how to save for a trip. And so spending on things you don't need is probably not the advice, but sometimes mentally you do need it. But I mean, as we're looking into different things, I'm definitely seeing like a trend in terms of pricing. Like we're looking at doing this road trip to visit some colleges. And there we would be staying close to the college and, you know, more like in a city or small town kind of thing.   [00:04:41.230] - Tamara And those hotels are actually really affordable because there's just not a lot of that kind of tourism happening right now, you know?   [00:04:49.750] - Tamara So I've even been like, well, if we do this, I want to book a suite because I want to have space. Like, I don't want to feel like we're on top of each other, but I also want to have a place where we can bring food in and eat because, you know, it's still going to be cold.   [00:05:02.920] - Tamara And so we're not really doing outdoor dining, but we're not going to want to do much indoor dining unless something has a very low capacity, you know?   [00:05:10.810] - Kim And a place where the microwave is helpful because we are in a hotel that had a. And it was nice to get the food and take out and bring it back, but, you know, every once in a while you'd want to heat it up and we didn't have it.   [00:05:22.040] - Tamara So, yes, I found that actually for what I thought would be the cost of a regular room, I can get a suite, so that's good. But then when it comes to summer, I'm looking at doing something that feels more resort, like more, if we can't go to Greece, I would like something. I know it's not going to be Greece, but can it be something like nice? And I think you know me. You know that I don't really love the big high rise hotels and that type of thing because I want something a little bit more intimate, more personal, has more character or whatever.   [00:05:56.410] - Tamara and also like now in times of covid, like, I don't want to have to always be in an elevator, in a hallway or a crowded pool area or like any of that kind of stuff, like I want more like open air. So I found a couple of places that I absolutely fell in love with in the Florida Keys. But oh my God, the price like it is insane. So it was one of those moments where I've always told Glenn, don't show me things that I can't afford. I don't want to look at houses that I can't afford, and I want to look at cars that I can't afford. I don't want to look at clothes that I can't afford.   [00:06:27.220] - Tamara And there's also some things where it's like even if you could afford it, like there are times where I've gone to, like, shopping for a store and I'm like, I'm sorry, but I am not spending 100 dollars on jeans.   [00:06:37.840] - Tamara It's just not like I grew up so frugal that it's like really hard for me to, like, spend on certain things. And I am more willing to do it on like travel. And I look at it, I said, look, I want something special. Like we gave up, you know, our special trip last year. We're probably giving up this year. I still want to do it in the future.   [00:06:55.240] - Tamara But can we have something special like not just we went away for like four days, but like, can it be to a special place, you know, to try to find that in an environment that feels safe, knowing that this summer is still, you know, all the protocols are still going to be in place. Like whether or not we will be vaccinated is still a big if. And so they're still going to be a lot of travel and safety concerns. And, you know, I wanted to feel special, but I can't spend two thousand dollars a night. I mean, it's just insane.   [00:07:24.850] - Tamara Every time I look at things, I'm like, are there really that many rich people in the world like? And then I realized, there are.   [00:07:32.320] - Kim yeah, obviously. So I mean, I'll never forget the time that I spent five hundred dollars for one night at a Disneyland hotel and I thought that was just stupid. I felt like an idiot then. But it was important for me to have the extra hour and make the most of our time and stuff.   [00:07:46.960] - Tamara I feel like sometimes I'm willing to do it like it gives you enough pleasure. It it provides something that you're really looking for, you know, and I would I would even spend, you know, a good amount more than that, but not two thousand dollars a night.   [00:07:59.810] - Tamara And then have to buy food, you know, food and drink and everything else on top of that. And so all I can say is if anybody just won the lottery, look up little Palm Island in Florida and you'll be very happy. And I found another place that looked really good, too. It's called Bungalows Key Largo. They look pretty good.   [00:08:15.970] - Tamara It's like an adult, only all inclusive in Florida because we're just trying to stay where can we get that tropical feel without necessarily leaving the country and having to deal with, like, all the bubbles and testing and, you know, just all the kind of hassles for a fairly short trip.   [00:08:31.280] - Tamara So anyway, I'm still searching and maybe using some of Danielle's tips will help me, you know, continue to save, although I don't think I'm saving quite that much.   [00:08:42.160] - Kim Yeah, well, maybe she'll inspire you to realize that you don't need the 2000 night hotel that you know. I know. But now I've seen it. I definitely think that Florida is probably attracting a lot of those kind of, you know, snow escapers right now. So I'm not surprised to hear that there.   [00:09:01.240] - Tamara This is because I'm looking for July, everybody's making plans. Everybody wants to make it now. Well, and I think the other tip is like, you really do need to plan in advance. The reason I want to book something now is because for those things that if you want what you want, like, so does everyone else.   [00:09:18.670] - Kim I think that's a good tip. Well, let's talk to Danielle and hopefully she can inspire us all to put away a little bit of savings so maybe we can splurge on something that's safe and fun for this summer.   [00:09:28.780] - Tamara Sounds good.   [00:09:38.030] - Tamara So this week, we're here with Danielle Desir, and she is an author, blogger, podcaster and Founder of the Thought Card, which is an award winning affordable travel and personal finance blog and podcast, empowering financially savvy travelers to make informed financial decisions, travel more, pay off debt and build wealth. She's also the coproducer of Millennial Wealth Builders, a three time grant funded audio docu series highlighting women of color building wealth. Welcome, Danielle.   [00:10:03.950] - Danielle Thank you so much for having me.   [00:10:06.230] - Tamara We're always excited to talk to another podcaster here. And we focus so much on family travel that sometimes we forget we need to get out of our little family travel bubble and talk to some new people, too. So I know you have a very interesting, back story when it comes to paying off debt, building wealth and traveling while you're doing it.   [00:10:26.220] - Tamara And I think this is a time, especially so many families are struggling right now, given everything we've all been dealing with for the past year and trying to afford a vacation when the time is right is definitely a challenge. I think now is the time maybe to start thinking about strategies and ways for that. So that's why we want to talk to you today. But before we jump into that, can you tell us a little bit more about your own personal journey?   [00:10:51.200] - Danielle Sure. So I would say that I have a love for travel at a really young age. And I also grew up in a family where money was talked about all the time. So it wasn't a secret. My mom was very transparent about how to save, how to spend. I even remember seeing her student loan with so many zeros at the end, like a really young age, so that that love of travel and that love of, I guess, the love of money or appreciating money and understanding, using it as a tool came early on. Now, my family, every summer we would go to Haiti.   [00:11:28.010] - Danielle That's where my family's from. And that's where I would spend all summer there with my grandparents running around with the chickens and the farm and learning the culture, the food, speaking the language. So, I mean, since I was like five years old, so I was about 15 when it kind of became uncool to, like, leave your boyfriend back home for the summer. So that's really like my back story of like how travel has been a really big, integral part of my life since I was really young.   [00:11:53.990] - Danielle And money, again, was talked about all the time. Now, I would say when I got to high school, I started to see travel as being uncool. It was taking me away from my friends.And like I mentioned, my boyfriend at the time. And I was I was really hanging out with my friends and I was really friend focused. So I gave up travel. It really just the left it alone until I got to college and travel emerged again.   [00:12:21.530] - Danielle But now it was like, it's the cool thing to do. Everyone was going on spring break trips and, you know, study abroad programs. And unfortunately, at the time my study abroad, I couldn't study abroad on a financial aid package. I had a ton of scholarships that helped to put my costs down for school, but they weren't going to cover studying abroad. So I had asked my mom, I said, Mom, listen, I would love to go to spend a semester in Paris. Is that possible? And she was like, of course I would do anything that I can. And that was great. But the back stories that we were losing our home to foreclosure. So a part of me felt so guilty that my mom couldn't even keep the lights on. Right. We're about to lose our house. And here I would be gallivanting off in Paris.   [00:13:08.480] - Danielle So I made the decision that I wasn't going to study abroad, but I made also the vow to myself and a promise to myself, which ultimately has helped me become the traveler I am today, that once I graduated from college, graduate from grad school, I would work really hard to be able to save and prioritize travel in my life. So that vow now, like almost ten years later, has been something that kept me grounded. I went on my first trip in 2014. My had graduated in 2011, so it took me three years to, like, get out to save enough funds.   [00:13:46.280] - Danielle But it started off with saving twenty five dollars every two weeks when I actually did get a job so that twenty five dollars every two week transformed into a week long trip to Paris in 2014. And then every single year I just try to learn more about being a savvy traveler, saving more money, you know, going on more trips. And here we are in twenty, twenty one.   [00:14:09.470] - Tamara That's nice. It makes me think of like growing up, we really didn't do any travel and we were just visiting family and I had such a passion for travel and stuff like travel posters on my walls. And my first real trip was to Mexico with like a school class in high school. And I think my mom, like, actually cashed in an insurance policy so that I could go on that. So, yeah, I've had my own little journey to being able to travel, but it means so much and you can make it happen.   [00:14:38.240] - Kim I agree. I was kind of in the same situation. My family did not have a lot of money growing up and there was travel wasn't really anything a part of it. The most I traveled was for like a softball tournament to a nearby city. And I think I went from Kansas, Oklahoma once for a tournament. And then I remember taking one epic trip to visit family in Southern California in like fifth grade. And that was kind of a big you know, that was a big deal for me.   [00:15:02.270] - Kim But once I got married, I was like, OK, travel is going to be a part of our life. And so I kind of started planning and getting into it more. But it's interesting how it can, you know, like you have this passion even if you didn't experience it as a kid.   [00:15:15.770] - Danielle So, yes, I totally agree. One of my dreams when I was a little kid was to go to Disney World, I'm sure, as a lot of kids have that goal. And it wasn't until I was, you know, 22, 23 that I actually ended up going to Disney. And I make fun of my mom now. I was like, mom, like, you never took me to Disney. We could laugh about it now. But I'm at the point now where it means so much more to me that I can take my mom and Disney when I have the finances to do that.   [00:15:45.200] - Danielle So I think sometimes when you are growing up and you may not have the ability or maybe maybe like for me, I was going to Haiti every single summer, which was a part of travel, but I also did dance lessons. I also did like so many extracurricular activities. So I think when it comes to like family saving and prioritizing and travel, there are a lot of other things that may come before travel. So as an adult, I feel so much like more equipped to to make it work.   [00:16:15.680] - Kim Yeah, exactly. Well, I know that there's probably a lot of people right now and then in in the grand scheme of things that feel like they can't afford to travel. I know I've had people say to me, like, how do you afford to take so many trips? And of course, being a travel writer now, they don't ask that as much. But when we first started traveling all the time, they would ask that all the time.   [00:16:35.390] - Kim So what do you think are some top budgeting tips that you would give for people who, you know, want to travel but don't see how they could financially do it?   [00:16:45.650] - Danielle So I know that budgeting is a bad word for a lot of people. It's the B word that everyone tries to avoid. But I definitely see budgeting as empowering because who set your budget? You do, right? Like, of course, we all have limitations based off of our income, but we have the ability to dictate how our money is moved around and where it gets allocated to. So no one seeing your budget as a tool that's going to be that you're going to use to really determine what your future is going to look like.   [00:17:16.160] - Danielle Another thing I want to say is that when it comes to budgeting, I really like to sit down, I would say on a quarterly basis, especially after and during the pandemic, like right now, it's a good time to reassess and to do of wants versus needs list. So out of all of your expenses for the month, what are the things you absolutely need to survive versus the things that are nice to have?   [00:17:38.450] - Danielle And the easiest place, if you're looking to save more for travel is to reduce from the wants list. So things that maybe maybe nice, maybe not. Maybe you have Hulu, Netflix and HBO. Maybe you don't need all three. Right? Maybe you just need one of them. So that that needs versus wants list is really, really powerful and it can help you to remove some unnecessary expenses. Like for me, I've been doing a lot of jumping rope at home, which has significantly reduced my gym costs. But I was paying for my gym for like the last six months because I just kept it on autopilot.   [00:18:15.260] - Danielle So this is the time to go through. What are you spending your money on and what are things that, OK, I no longer need. Maybe that was my old life and now I can move on and and make sure you capture that and put it towards your travel savings.   [00:18:28.940] - Danielle So my third tip is to create a travel fund. So a travel fund is simply a separate account that's devoted solely to your travel savings.   [00:18:37.430] - Danielle There's a number of reasons why you want to do this, because no one at a glance you can see undistracted how much money you have available to go on a trip. That is very empowering. And also you're not commingling with other funds. So just being able to see it separately is really helpful.   [00:18:54.950] There are a lot of online banks right now, for example, like if you're in the U.S., Ali or Charles Schwab, actually have a blog post on my Web site that recommends about three different big accounts that where you could open up a bank account for no money, you know, little to no money compared to brick and mortars, a lot of them have like maintenance fees and minimums and and it has all these and restrictions.   [00:19:20.360] - Kim So, yeah, I was just chiming in again, one of those tips of those online, don't they? Also, a lot of times the ATM cards work well, like overseas and things. There's not fees on those as well. So that's another like travel perk. If you have your travel fund in a in one of those, then it also works for helping you get cash if you're overseas. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. I just wanted to add that is another little thing.   [00:19:46.550] - Danielle And also, realistically speaking, like you're not necessarily going to be needing to run over to your brick and mortar to take out money on a consistent basis when it comes to your travel fund. It's usually going to be maybe a couple of times a year. So an online bank is just a great way to have some buffers and a little bit of a boundary and a space from just being able to go to your brick and mortar and take money out like willy nilly whenever you need to.   [00:20:09.800] - Danielle So I definitely think a travel fund is just a just a great budgeting tip.   [00:20:14.450] - Danielle And last but not least is to really take a look at your top three expenses. So for a lot of people, that's shelter like your housing costs, which is primarily fixed, like if you can't house hack or anything like that, like your housing is fixed. Transportation is another category that I've seen that I have significantly reduced since the pandemic. I'm not commuting as much. I'm not really driving that much. So that has been a place where I can funnel money into my travel fund and other goals and food.   [00:20:45.200] - Danielle Food is a huge category, especially if you're like using insta cart, which I've become addicted to recently. So those are my my budgeting tips that's to get you started, really prioritizing, figuring out the things that you need versus the things that you want and try to funnel as much money as you can toward your travel savings.   [00:21:09.860] - Tamara I mean, I love that you have these concrete tips because just the idea of putting it in a separate fund and watching that grow, it's such an incentive. You know, like when you see something, whether it's like in your business or whatever it is, when you see it growing, it's just I don't know. It's almost right now Kim knows this. I'm like lacking for positive, like a feedback loop in my life right now.   [00:21:32.480] - Tamara And so even like a little thing like watching my bank account grow would be like, yeah, I'm doing it and feeling good. So I love that. I was also just thinking that my credit card expires or will renew, you know, next month. So I need to sit down with my bill and go through and see what's automatically billed every month, because you know how I will then stop being automatically billed, because your expiration date came up and I thought this is going to be a good time for me to look at it and figure out what things do we really not need.   [00:22:01.760] - Tamara You know, because sometimes just looking at that bill, you skim it. But, you know, if you're not looking at every line item and realizing how much that that adds up, it's a good exercise to kind of go through every now and then just to say, hey, do I really need this? Do I really need that? But, you know, those are some great budgeting tips.   [00:22:18.710] - Tamara But I'm wondering when it comes to actually saving for travel, do you have any other ideas? You know, how do you take the budget and make it a reality?   [00:22:29.030] - Danielle So once you've identified areas where you can start funnelling into your travel fund, I would highly recommend to automate as much as possible. And I think you referred to this year, like, I just want to set it, forget it and just watch it grow.   [00:22:42.470] - Danielle And that's so powerful, being able to dictate where money is going to go and not having to actually think about it. So I try to best as possible. I have a direct deposit automation since I have a 9:00 to 5:00 employer. Even if you're a freelancer, you can still do like a bank transfer every so often except the frequency. But that's been really helpful. So throughout the entire pandemic, I've been fortunate enough where I did not even touch that automation at all. So now I have a stash of cash to pull from to go on that bigger, bigger trip one day when we can travel because it's been automated. So automation really allows you to just kind of let things happen in the background.   [00:23:27.260] - Danielle Now, one of my favorite apps to help me save a little bit extra cash for travel is digit. So digit is a auto saving app. There is a small monthly fee, but for me, it's been able to pay like it's paid for itself, just one little automation it's been able to pay itself. But what it does is that every single day it takes maybe a little bit like a couple of cents out of your account to a couple of dollars out of your account every single day.   [00:23:56.720] - Danielle Or you could also say whenever you're swiping your card, you could really determine how frequent you want it. And it just stashes it for you and you could determine what type of goals you want to have. So I have a mini travel fund goal. I have a mini shopping spree goal. So all of these automation's happening in the background is actually in twenty nineteen. When I went to Disney for a week, I didn't even look at my travel fund because I just pulled from digit. I was like, oh there's just all this cash sitting there like I did even I literally did not even feel it. And if you're worried like oh my gosh, are they going to overdraft my account? They do have stops in place, which prevents that from happening. So and you could even say, listen, pause this until X, Y, Z, which is helpful.   [00:24:41.780] - Danielle So in addition to my travel fund, I also have like this digit stash I pull from, which has been been awesome. And then the last tip I have when it comes to money saving tips for travel is having family buy in. So getting your family involved in the process of planning a trip, saving for travel from start to finish, getting them involved as early as possible. One of the things that I like to do is I like to name my bank accounts with my with my husband. And that allows us to both say, OK, what is it that we're both really excited about for our next trip?   [00:25:20.870] - Danielle And we named that account and we we both collectively try to work on that goal together. And then when we're going to plan the trip, all that hard work we can celebrate. I just think it's really great to not only the practical tips, but also just getting your family involved as much as possible with the planning process.   [00:25:39.000] - Kim We've always kind of said that with family travel, especially like with getting kids involved in it and, you know, excited about the destination, giving them a little control over it. And I think when people you know, when you when you combine the enthusiasm and the focus, it can make a difference. And I think that's a good tip. And that digit sounds really cool. Like I remember in the old days I don't remember which bank account would let you round up. So every time you would swipe your card, it would round up and that money would go into a savings account for you. And so it's really it's a really clever way of just kind of I think automating it, like we've mentioned, is a huge factor so that you're not feeling like it's costing you something to put the money away.   [00:26:20.850] - Tamara It makes me feel like going and looking at how much is in there would be like when you find the 20 dollar bill in your pocket, they forgot you had there, you know.   [00:26:29.310] - Danielle Or like when you're doing laundry and then you find that money in your pocket, like, oh, my gosh.   [00:26:35.970] - Kim And I think my girls have experienced that recently, you know, that we have savings accounts for them. And I started giving them the savings account like their statements and then being able to see that, like, interest does add up, even though it's so minimal now. But that's, I think, seen how interest accruing and all that works is very motivating for a lot of people.   [00:26:56.730] - Tamara And I feel like even when you make a decision, like I know I always try to talk to Hannah about things like when I'm making a decision, I'm like, well, you know, I just feel like that's too much money to spend. And I'll explain why, you know, kind of explain the rationale behind it.   [00:27:10.260] - Tamara And you know why making the choice that I am and maybe what that then allows us to do, you know, versus if we did, you know, X, Y, Z all the time, you know. So I think having those conversations, like you said, Danielle, like your mom was very open with you, I feel like it's really important to kind of it's an education, too. And it's really important to educate our kids about how to manage their money.   [00:27:31.560] - Kim Yeah, I totally agree. So, Danielle, do you have any, you know, top you mentioned digit is one of your favorite apps, but do you have any other tips or apps for finding travel deals? So once you've saved money, maybe, how can you get a good deal on your vacation?   [00:27:47.010] - Danielle Yes, this is my favorite part about both parts of my favorite parts, because that's what I think makes up a financially savvy traveler, is not only being able to accrue enough money to go on a trip, but also to be able to spend it as wisely as possible. But value based spending.So it's really like, what are you valuing and making sure that your spending aligns with that versus just spending frivolously.   [00:28:12.960] - Danielle So just to just to really think back in terms of what is a financially savvy traveler for me, prior to the pandemic, I was I was cornering the cheap flights market like that was that was me that I was finding the cheapest deals ever.   [00:28:31.980] - Danielle And it was just so exciting. And this goes back to the Value-Based Spending Idea, because for me, I just want to arrive safely at a destination. I don't really care that much for luxurious comforts in the air, but everyone is different, right? If you prioritize your your flight experience and you may not necessarily prioritizing your hotel or accommodation. So everyone has something that they're prioritizing. For me, it was not airfare. So that's where I focus my energy on trying to maximize like just spend as little as possible.   [00:29:04.830] - Danielle So some of the sites that I I look at when I'm thinking about cheap flights and I'm going to also offer some sites as well, that's more general travel planning because a lot of people are not flying right now. One of my favorite is secret flying. So secretflying.com is a free website which offers daily flight deals every single day, which is really helpful from all over the world. So I would sign up for their free newsletter and everyday they will send you a couple each day.   [00:29:35.160] - Danielle And this is important because it's helping you to establish a baseline for your flight costs, which is important because you want to be able to know when you're maximizing and when you're finding a really good deal. Not everything that comes across your desk is a good deal. But how are you going to know that if you're not using data, making a data driven decision?   [00:29:54.120] - Danielle So I would use websites like Secret flying to just really understand, like, OK, to Europe baseline, how much do I expect to spend? And then I'm always looking for like that below average costs. So secret flying is a good one.   [00:30:07.620] - Danielle The flight deal is fantastic they are another free web site that again offers you daily deals, which is helpful. I really like to keep an eye on. The PointsGuy also has been really helpful. They have a daily deal section. Those are more for like the flights now.   [00:30:25.440] - Danielle I really love Travelzoo. So Travelzoo dot com. They have a weekly Wednesday top twenty list now prepandemic make those deals were amazing.   [00:30:36.510] - Danielle Those deals were amazing. And I'll give you like a quick example of the deal that I found there. The deal, one of the deals that I will never forget is I found a 299 dollar deal, a ten, ten day all expenses like flights, hotels, some food to China, China.   [00:30:53.980] - Kim Yes, I saw that my my husband and father in law did that deal.   [00:30:58.980] - Danielle Yes. I mean, there there are some pros and I believe that's its own episode. There's a lot of with that.   [00:31:03.600] - Danielle There you go. Yes, you're right. It is. It's own episode. It's its own episode. We'll put an asterisk on that for everyone who also wants to go book that there's an Asterix.   [00:31:12.090] - Danielle Yes, there's a lot of Asterisk on that. But it was a deal that I spotted through Travelzoo, which is incredible. So Travelzoo not only offers flights, but sometimes they offer hotels or combined packages. So that's a free newsletter that I highly recommend to.   [00:31:28.620] - Kim Some other hotel deals are amazing, unlike luxury, you know, nice four and sometimes five star resorts. They they offer some great deals.   [00:31:36.660] - Danielle Exactly. Exactly. And then the last website that I really like is gate one travel. So gate one travel. They have not only independent trips where they pretty much like book your flight and they book your hotel, but they also run tours, too. So you could have like the full fledged experience where you have a tour guide and all of that and they have a weekly deal list every Monday, which they've actually reinstated since the pandemic. And it's just good to see like they have frequently like a thousand dollar deals to Dubai or other other really cool destinations. So I'm really all about signing up for all the free newsletters and keeping an eye out to see what's happening.   [00:32:17.370] - Danielle And then, you know, being able to not only couple that with the finances and then book it and go and love that, especially it does.   [00:32:26.010] - Tamara When you see a lot of those deals, you kind of get a sense for not just like what that base price, you know, is what is a good deal, but also just. What are some of the destinations that come up a lot for deals, because there are certain places that you'll see pop up like kind of over and over and you're like, OK, so I know if I want to go there, I'm going to be able to find a deal. I just need to hold out and wait for it. You know what I mean? And I really like your point about prioritizing. It's one of the things that Kim knows that we really like to enjoy local food. We're kind of foodies. And so we will spend a lot more on food when we're in a destination than some other people.   [00:32:59.600] - Tamara So it's one of those things when I'm looking at, you know, like my overall budget, I'm like, well, we spent this, but you may not need to, you know, like, there are other options. So like you said, it all depends on what is important to you. So it sounds like you probably have found a lot of your kind of budget trips through some of these deals and such.   [00:33:21.250] - Tamara But through your travels, have you found some destinations that you feel are more, you know, kind of favorite budget destinations, like places where people kind of should keep an eye out? Because if you're looking for a budget deal, you're apt to find one?   [00:33:35.920] - Danielle Yeah, I think it depends on the time of year. So I would frequently go to Ireland. I've been to Ireland twice in January because I found years apart the same or similar price deals to go to Ireland, to go to Dublin. So I it's funny because Dublin in Ireland is not necessarily the cheapest, the cheapest places to go do. And it's interesting because I the places I love to visit are actually some of the most expensive in the world. So Iceland. I love Iceland, I love Bermuda, I love Ireland.   [00:34:08.500] - Danielle These places are not necessarily cheap, but again, it's all about like the expenses and how you spend there. But in terms of my own personal experiences, I found Lisbon, Portugal to be affordable, especially as a European destination. I found that pretty affordable. I also found Mexico to be affordable as well, which has been really helpful. And let's see if there's any other. China was also very affordable as well.   [00:34:39.690] - Kim Tamara and I were in Lisbon and, you know, so that's great. And we were actually been in Ireland together, too.   [00:34:46.060] - Kim So I can remember in Lisbon, we had that like five euro lunch. That was a lot of food.   [00:34:51.340] - Tamara Yeah, I was thinking of that. I think Tamara and I both realized that in some ways Lisbon is extremely affordable as a European destination. Like even there are tourist attractions that you go to are still like priced fairly well.   [00:35:06.550] - Danielle Yes, there's a couple, actually, a family, a family that they're on YouTube. They're called Our Rich Journey. And they recently moved to Portugal after retiring early and being financially independent. And it's just really interesting to hear why. Like, why did they pick Portugal out of all the places in the world? So, yes, definitely. I definitely agree. Lisbon has really great food beaches. So many great things to do at a at a really good price.   [00:35:35.320] - Kim So we've covered, you know, kind of some big destinations and definitely places for a lot of our listeners that they would be putting off right now. But, you know, one of the hot topics I think right now for a lot of us is kind of local travel, you know, sticking around your own backyard or maybe, you know, around your own region. Do you have any tips for families that might be thinking of exploring around them that you think could, you know, be beneficial from a savings standpoint?   [00:36:03.040] - Danielle Yeah, last summer was, for me, the Great Awakening, because I realized, like, OK, travel's changed completely for me. I'm no longer flying. So I did a lot of more road trips and I live in the Northeast. So I visited towns or cities like between four and five hours away from home. One of the things I personally think that's important is to really think about if you prefer to stay at a hotel right now or if you prefer to stay at an Airbnb, each of them have their own pros and cons.   [00:36:37.780] - Danielle If you want to be necessarily like, let's say, secluded or you prefer to be like in a more remote location, then you have a lot of more options with Airbnb. Now, the problem with Airbnb is that there's so much more expensive now. A lot of hosts actually have higher fees, the cleaning fees. That has been astronomical. So if you are thinking about going on a, you know, more local trip or road trip, definitely start looking at Airbnb early. I would say anything from like four to five months early just to start to see, OK, what are price trends? Is it even affordable to stay at an Airbnb or do I prefer to stay at hotels? Now, in the countryside, a lot of hotels are offering really deep discounts. So a lot of financially savvy travelers are telling me that staying at a luxury hotel is like the most affordable it's ever been, right, because the capacities are down. The demand is down, which means prices are down, which is really helpful. So that I think is is number one is really great.   [00:37:45.970] - Danielle I think for the majority of all the money saving tips and ideas I was sharing before are all relevant, like using digit and making priorities in your budget and and getting your family involved. These are all things that regardless of the destination or the type of travel they could, still going to be beneficial.   [00:38:05.050] - Danielle Some other tips I would just share for those who are thinking about local travel. The thing about it right now, especially what I've discovered from last summer, is that each state has its own restrictions. Each state has its own quarantine. Or I mean, there's 50 states and each state is different. So really making sure that before you set out and go looking at what the state requirements, not only the state that you want to visit, but also your state as well, because some states are actually fining folks if you're not like being compliant. So that that's really helpful. And I would also say look at the tourism board website.   [00:38:42.560] - Danielle So tourism boards are going to keep you up to date with what's going on. And that's one of the places I actually look for for the most important information.   [00:38:51.520] - Tamara And sometimes they have deals to like sometimes they might have like a pass or, you know, sometimes some of their attractions. If you book online, you get a little discount. So Kim and I always talk about like looking at the tourism board website. And it's amazing. Kind of the I don't know, it's very helpful just to figure out what's there, but it's just helpful, you know, also finding some of those little deals and things that you may not have known about, like which restaurants offer kids eat free or which, you know, might have a Monday half price wine night or something like that, you know?   [00:39:23.500] - Tamara Well, you've given us a lot to think about. And I love that a lot of your tips have given us some apps and things, too, that we haven't necessarily talked about with some of our other guests. But we do have a question that we ask all of our guests, and that is, what do you wear when you travel? Do you have a favorite brand? You know, any particular go to travel outfit?   [00:39:43.750] - Danielle I would say I'm more of obsessive over footwear, so I really, really want to make sure that I have something comfortable with my feet. So I usually go to with vans. I like that their slip on that they're super comfortable and that I can just be more relaxed in them. No high heels for me, no high heels.   [00:40:04.210] - Tamara I'm with you there.   [00:40:05.470] - Kim Yes. So Danielle, why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you online?   [00:40:11.500] - Danielle Well, thank you again so much for having me. It was really fun chatting all about traveling money. You could head over to thought car dotcom. That's my affordable travel website. I also have the thought card podcast, which is my Affordable Travel and personal finance podcast. And I actually have two books that I think would be relevant to today's conversation. So the first book I have is called Affording Travel Saving Strategies Financially Savvy Travelers. And another book I published recently is planning local trips during a pandemic. So I think those two books would be really great to take the next step.   [00:40:52.810] - Tamara So thank you again for being on and chatting with us and looking forward to following your future travels. And I need you to tell me which luxury resorts in the Northeast are offering discounts, because I'm telling you, all the ones I've been looking at are way beyond my price range.   [00:41:07.360] - Danielle You know, it's so funny. I've been sticking to Airbnb, so I've been hearing rumors that they're cheaper. But I just prefer Airbnb out. They have been out in the cabin. So the countryside   [00:41:18.280] - Tamara We've done some of that. So I'm looking at something for the summer. I'm like, oh, man, I know the hotels are hurting, but these prices are outrageous. So I'm going to keep dreaming on that one for a bit. Keep dreaming and keep saving.   [00:41:31.000] - Kim Now, if you keep saving, maybe something, then sign up for some emails. You never know what I'll fall.   [00:41:34.690] - Danielle You never know. You never know.   [00:41:37.390] - Kim Thanks so much, Danielle. It was great chatting with you.   [00:41:39.490] - Kim Thanks so much as always. Thanks for joining us. For another week of vacation mavens next time, which is two weeks away, we're going to be celebrating something big. It's our fifth year anniversary of Vacation MAVEN's. We are five years old, so we are celebrating in a manner that, you know, truly is fitting for Tamara and I, for those of you that know us, we are going to be talking all about wine tasting and wine tasting tips.   [00:42:05.410] - Kim So I hope you will join us in two weeks and we will talk to you again soon   [00:42:10.510] - Tamara Come raise a virtual glass with us to celebrate and look forward to it and send us a picture. Yeah, definitely. Say cheers to us.  

I am thrilled to welcome Danielle Paige back to the podcast! She first appeared in episode 60 and today we are going to talk all about licensing. Danielle now owns two centers, Academic Explorers, in New York and she talks us through how she expanded to her second location. She shares some of the challenges she overcame during licensing, what she might have done differently, how she chose her second location, what sets her brand apart, and more. Danielle also shares how she can help YOU with your licensing goals.   Key Takeaways: [1:31] Danielle shares about being an offsite owner to her two NY-based schools. [3:47] How the jump has been jumping from one to two centers for Danielle. [6:16] Would Danielle change anything she did when they opened if she had it to do over? [9:35] What sets Danielle’s centers apart in terms of branding? [16:15] More about what’s going on at home for Danielle. [19:22] How Danielle overcame a troubling relationship with a licensing rep. [29:09] How did Danielle choose her second location and how did she open it so quickly? [35:05] Danielle now works as a consultant to help others with their licensing goals. To find out more info you can email her directly at dani@childcaresites.com or visit the links below. [40:10] Some of the sites Danielle likes for business and market research.   Quotes: “Instead of using binder systems we put everything on the computer in a Cloud so we can all access it.” — Danielle “Making a phone call or trying to reach out to get known in the community before stepping in is something I would have done a little differently.” — Danielle “Every decision we make as owners is done with love in our hearts and that makes tough decisions really hard for us.” — Danielle “You want to pull those heartstrings into your marketing and leverage what you’re already doing.” — Kris “We’re not scared of licensing anymore.” — Danielle  “Just pointing people in the right direction is what I do because when I first started, I didn’t have anybody to do that for me.” — Danielle    Mentioned in This Episode: Kris Murray The Child Care Success Company The Child Care Success Academy The Child Care Success Summit ChildCareSites.Com Danielle’s YouTube Channel Academic Explorers Academic Explorers on Instagram Academic Explorers on Facebook BizBuySell Child Care Deserts  

Meet Danielle Benedict Moreau, the founder behind Sakura, a fresh natural juice company in Libreville Gabon. Danielle started the company after she got inspired by her little niece. She observed her little niece being independent and quite active for her young age. At that phase in her life, Danielle did not find a job, despite a university education and trying her best. Taking an example from her niece, she decided that it was time to get independent and active. Since fresh homemade juices were something that had helped her overcome an illness herself, she decided for that to be her product to go to market with. Today, she sells her drinks through gas stations, a number of restaurants and shops in Libreville, is employing staff and has been able to grow even during the Corona Virus situation. In the interview she speaks about: * How she launched her natural juice business with not much more than a cooling bag, fresh juices and determination * How she managed to reinvest the money she made to eventually open a store, finance her education in the beverage industry and come out with a professional production system * How she has set up a recycling system for the bottles she uses * And why she urges her fellow citizens in Gabon to produce and consume more local products to change the economy There is a lot of gold and inspiration in this interview and we hope you enjoy it as much as we did. And now, without further ado, enter Danielle… You can also watch the full interview with Danielle Moreau, founder of Sakura on Youtube HERE Follow Sakura on Facebook and on Instagram Link to the Sakura Homepage.

We are so excited to have Danielle Modafferi with Firefly Hill Press joining us on the podcast. Danielle is a published author who founded her own small press with the vision of creating a model that better supports writers in publishing.  We discuss what it means to work with an indie publisher and how other writers can successfully navigate the publishing space.   Have a question for Danielle? You can find her at www.fireflyhillpress.com. Don't forget to check out her book (under the name Andi Adams), and the other awesome authors at the press.   As always, if you enjoyed this episode leave a rating and review! Also, find us on our socials here:   TWITTER @geekymary @melissaannlong @writingeasypod1   INSTAGRAM @WritingEasyPodcast @writewithmelis   www.thewritingeasypodcast.com

*This is a previously aired episode from April 2018. Today’s conversation with Garrett and Danielle is about the topic of Money and the important role it plays in your relationship.  Every week married couple Danielle and Garrett J White share insights and perspectives from within their own lives regarding the following topics discussed each month: Week 1: Sex Week 2: Money Week 3: Parenting Week 4: Communication In This Week’s Podcast….MONEY Point #1: Men Must Produce When you make enough money to put your family into abundance, there’s a shift in the way that you see yourself as a man and a shift in the way you see your relationship. It also affects the way your wife sees you. Danielle: Generally, women want men to take care of them. Even if we can produce, we still want our man to ‘be the man’ and take care of us. A man is sexier to a woman when he’s the one producing. QUESTION How does this ring true for you as a couple?   Point #2: Money is a Tool Garrett: Inside of our relationships, money sits at the core. We have friends who celebrate their success and use money as a tool to inspire other people to create more, and then we have other friends who simply hide it all and pretend like they’re broke. Danielle: There was a five year period where we were experiencing rapid growth, and we disconnected ourselves from people. I had surface relationships and felt like I was kind of guarding myself. What I’ve come to realize now is that I can have relationships with everyone – it’s just a matter of me being comfortable with me. QUESTION Are you living in a scarcity or abundant mindset while being surrounded by your wealth? Point #3: You Must Leap Garrett: In 2009, after I had lost everything, I was offered a job from a friend at a very crucial time for me when I didn’t have a lot of belief in myself. I was terrified as a husband and as a producer and had lost all confidence in myself. There came a pivotal moment when I realized my life was in the balance, and something in my soul said, “You must fucking leap!” Danielle: When we were dating, I saw Garrett for who he was and who he could become. I knew there were great things in store for him. So when I saw him selling out, I was so upset because I knew that he was capable of doing and becoming so much more. QUESTION Where in your life have you settled?   Point #4: Don’t Settle Garrett: One of the greatest gifts my wife has given to me about money is that she rode my ass about it. As you get better and better at making money as a man inside of marriage, it forces you to become a new man. Danielle: I think that people play it safe in life in fear of failure. If I leap and I fall on my face, then there are consequences; but if I stay in the safe zone, then I can ride this out forever. If you’re listening to this and you’re feeling a stab in the heart to take action in your life, do it. QUESTION Where in your life are you feeling the call to take a leap of faith? Point #5: Team Work   Garrett: There are a lot of you here who need to rise. Danielle and I work as a team to push each other. There are times she wants to settle into her little comfortable cocoon, and then I kick her straight out of the cocoon, I rip it open and throw her off the cliff. And she does the same for me. Danielle: You can produce way more as a couple if you can get on the same page of experiencing more growth together. If you can take those experiences of who you are as a couple and make them work, two is better than one, at least in my experience for us. We push each other in that way. QUESTION What is your dance as a couple in the way you support each other’s growth? Communication Challenge: Have a conversation as a couple, and allow yourself to collide and dream. Sit down and set a target of a game that you could create together. Who can you become as a couple economically? Who can you become as a producer individually or collectively? What would it require for you to become to pull that off? Date Night Topic: Give yourself some credit for where you are. Challenge yourself on your Date-Night to have a conversation about possibility or collision. Either one of these paths will lead you to a new position and possibility inside of your life. Quote of the Week: “My money is a reflection of my ability to produce and create value in the marketplace. So I produce, and I create more not for the target of having money, but rather we are in this place of a desire to become more, and inside of that, we use money production as a way to accelerate that.” —Garrett J White “Be you at every level.” —Danielle K White  

For Big Money Stylist, we go over the following formula each month: Week #1: Power Week #2: Production Week #3: Profit Week #4: Protection In This Week’s Episode…..Production Point #1: Invest in Yourself Ashlee is an independent educator who has been traveling the world teaching for the past five years. She loves teaching people who invest in themselves and who are excited to learn and grow. Before that, she was an in-salon educator for ten years. “I was coming back to the salon super passionate to share these ideas, and what I had learned. I would have girls hungover or girls not wanting to be there. It was free; they felt coerced to be there and didn’t value it.” QUESTION Where in your world do you find yourself constantly giving to others who don't value you or your message? How is that working for you? Point #2: Expand Your Capacity Ashlee: I like this idea that our life is like a wheel. Sometimes you’re going to get a flat tire, but that doesn’t mean you can’t pump it back up and keep going. Ani: I see hear artists who say, “I don’t know if I can do this!” Yes, you can. You have to push past that capacity and know that you can do more. QUESTION Where in your world do you want to expand your capacity? Point #3: Day By Day null Danielle: You need to take things one day at a time. If I look at goals that I want to happen at this time next year, I immediately close down and get overwhelmed, and I feel like I’m drowning. A lot of women will worry about things six months into the future, but I tell them they don’t have to worry about them right now because they’re not facing those things right now. Just worry about the problems that are right in front of you. QUESTION What can you do to focus more on what’s in front of you?   Point #4: Don’t Stop When you give people a tool that can double their income, it changes lives, and it changes families. Years ago, when Danielle came home exhausted, juggling motherhood and work, she didn’t know if she could continue on. A voice came to her and said, “You’d be selfish to stop.” “I think we tend to come through and do things when there is more on the line. With each kid, my time got that much more valuable. As educators, we don’t realize how many people were inspiring. I can still be a mom and at the same time, teach and be passionate about hair.” QUESTION Who has inspired you to become a better artist? Point #5: Priorities Danielle: It comes down to prioritizing your time in order to create that balance. You have to learn how to prioritize your time based on what fucking ship is sinking. Ani: Nobody has any fucking free time for anything. You MAKE fucking time. You make time for business, you make time for partnerships, you make time for filming, and you make time for your actual partner. You make time based on what is a priority. QUESTION Where in your world do you know it’s time to re-visit your priorities and course-correct? Quote of the Week: “The more we share our stories, the more we can evolve and level up our capacity, and figure out how to balance life productively.” — Danielle K White “Prioritize, prioritize, prioritize! If it’s not important, if it’s not encouraging you, and if it’s not pushing you forward, fucking cut it out of your life and move on!” —Anianne Rivera

In this week’s episode, Danielle arrives in an impressive head-to-toe 80s look as she and Ani take a walk down the memory lane of fashion and style. They also explore the ever-important topic of research, how to handle your clients’ expectations, and share the steps they are taking that are radically challenging the hair industry’s wide-spread “pay-to-play” policy. *Repeat Episode From January 2019*     In Big Money Stylist, we go over the following formula each month: Week #1: Power Week #2: Production Week #3: Profit Week #4: Protection     In This Week’s Episode…..PROTECTION     Point #1: Embrace Change   Fashions and styles come and go and have a tendency to repeat every thirty years or so. Danielle remarks, “Let go of the old and accept the new. The old becomes the new new, so just let go.” “While short haircuts are trendy, extensions are always going to be classic and cool. We just need to make sure the styles stay consistent with the times.”   QUESTION     What fashions or styles have been your favorites through the years?     Point #2: Hand-Tied Hair     Extension hair comes machine-tied and hand-tied. Sixteen years ago, Danielle discovered hand-tied hair. She liked it because the weft was so much thinner and the density from top to bottom was so much fuller.  Hand-tied hair is super trendy right now. It’s important to do your research because there are so many different installation methods. Natural Beaded Rows is one of the installation methods of the hand-tied hair.     QUESTION     As an Artist, what different types of installation methods have you exerienced?     Point #3: Time, Reps & Experience     Ani: You can be doing something for ten years but are only doing it for five minutes every day, or you can be doing something for a year but are spending seven hours a day doing it. I’ll choose the seven-hour person every time. Danielle: You have to have reps in something in order to become an expert. When people say they’ve been doing hair for 20-30 years, they don’t understand that the experience you’ve had, Ani, could be equal to or more than what they’ve done.     QUESTION     Where in your world do you know you’re lacking reps?     Point #4: Managing Client Expectations     When you have a client who hasn’t experienced extensions, you need to take more time with them and describe how to take care of the extensions. You almost need to baby them at first. It’s also important to be able to have direct communication with them which you may not be accustomed to doing. Yet, as the professional, it’s vital that you have these direct conversations with them. (What is your hair policy? Do they need new hair? How long is your work guaranteed?)   QUESTION     How can your improve the direct conversations with your clients?     Point #5:  The World of Pay to Play     Ani: Inside the hair world, you pay to play. You paid your money so now you’re ‘qualified and certified.’ The changes we’ve made inside of our education now means something. It means something to do NBR, it means something to be a licensed artist, not just, “I paid money, took one class, and now I’m certified.” Danielle: We had to make some hard decisions within our education. We pumped on the brakes and put qualifications in place. We received a lot of backlash for it but that’s ok. There’s no point being in business if you’re not trying to up the game. It’s always important to take a step back and look at the reality of where you are.   QUESTION     What have you done lately to “up your game?”   Quote of the Week:  “People are giving way too much credit to popularity vs actually doing the research. Not every artist, salon, or technique is created equal.” –Danielle K White “As a consumer myself, I do crazy research and am super psycho about it. It’s that important to me.” –Anianne Rivera

*NEW EPISODE* The White’s are back in the studio with a brand new episode of the Date Your Wife podcast, fresh and on point in the style you have come to love! We learn what has been transpiring in their lives since the arrival of baby Isla, what postpartum life is like, why Danielle feels they should show themselves some grace, why Garrett referred to Danielle as Tom Brady the morning after their Anniversary, and much, much more. Every week married couple Danielle and Garrett J White share insights and perspectives from within their own lives regarding the following topics discussed each month: Week 1: Sex Week 2: Money Week 3: Parenting Week 4: Communication In This Week’s Podcast….Sex Point #1: The Miracle  Nearly all parents can agree that the first few days and weeks of having a new baby in the house is a huge adjustment for everyone. This one investment has made all the difference and is what Garrett refers to as a life preserver. What is it? It’s a Snoo. Adds Danielle, “It’s a miracle. You zip the baby in so they can’t wriggle out of their blanket, and it plays white noise while gently rocking them.” QUESTION What gadgets have helped you with your newborn? Point #2: The Meltdown Garrett created the “Don’t Be a Dick While Your Wife is Pregnant” challenge which he managed to pull off up until he fumbled on the second-yard line. “She’s two weeks postpartum and something inside of me snaps. I am obsessed with sex and I get to this angry place.” Danielle: You did the weird thing that makes a woman feel more guilty. Then I had a postpartum meltdown explosion. I was postpartum, mixed with newborn emotions, and my eyes and forehead were weeping in ways they never had. I bawled my eyes out for an hour with a lot of fuck you’s in between. QUESTION What did you experience as a couple during the early postpartum days & weeks? Point #3: The Anniversary After their huge blowout, Danielle knew it was time for them to get back on track doing the things that worked for them in their relationship: this podcast, Date Nights, and Sex. She was beginning to feel more like a woman rather than an “Umpa Loompa” as she put on her makeup, pulled up her Spanx, and went out on a date with Garrett. She also realized that they needed to give themselves some grace. Garrett: We got back on track sexually, and then we had what I’m going to call the Quantum Night, Quantum standing for four – the Cuatro night. It’s in my favorite files. I can put out imagery and live video footage – an hour of it. That was so amazing. That was the best ever! QUESTION What was it that brought you back on track sexually after the births of your babies? Point #4: The Green Light Does the woman initiate? Do they wait for the guy to initiate? What can she do to signal that the doors are open? What should he NEVER do if he wants to initiate sex? Men, if you’re trying to get your wife in the mood and immediately start rubbing or slapping her butt, or go in for the boobs, THAT IS A HUGE TURN OFF! DON’T DO THAT! Instead, come to her and say something like, “Let me rub your shoulders.” This works like a charm for most women. QUESTION What are the Red Lights and Green Lights inside of your sex life? Point #5: Sneak Preview Here’s a sneak preview into the world of the White’s and their respective businesses. Garrett: WARRIOR GREENS – Kitchen-style documentary on the history of Warrior Greens and how they support the conversation of CORE 4 for both men & women. BECOME A KING Series – The seven Pits and Power moves of married businessmen with children. Danielle: Creator of Natural Beaded Rows (NBR), Host of the Big Money Stylist Podcast, Hair Education (NBR & BMS), Hairline (ISLA), Ower of DKW Styling Salon. Go to dkwstying.com to find out more. QUESTION What are you creating in your lives either as a couple or individually? Communication Challenge: Have a conversation about what keeps you on track as a couple. Date Night Topic: Come up with some unique-to-you Green Lights. Quote of the Week: “The game was a little rough. My brake pads were completely exhausted, and I was tearing apart my rotors with no brake pads. I didn’t realize I had run out of runway. All of my will power and “white-knuckling it” was gone. Something shifted in my brain. The baby’s out, the vagina’s open for business, why am I still being rejected?” –Garrett J White “You gotta be the bigger person, ladies.” –Danielle K White betheman.com, dkwstyling.com

In this new and refreshing episode of the “Podcast by the Pool” aka the Date Your Wife podcast, today’s topic comes as a result of a recent comment posted in response to a marketing piece on Garrett’s social media and sparks an important conversation about taking ownership of where you are in life…no matter where that is. We also get a little pregnancy update as the White’s enter the final stretch. To see what Garrett and Danielle are up to professionally, be sure to check out dkwstyling.com or betheman.com. Every week married couple Danielle and Garrett J White share insights and perspectives from within their own lives regarding the following topics discussed each month: Week 1: Sex Week 2: Money Week 3: Parenting Week 4: Communication In This Week’s Podcast….Communication Point #1: Own It A recent comment on Garrett’s social media prompted today’s topic of serving and playing at your level, no matter what it is, and not be ashamed of where you’re at, regardless of where that is. You see people with money trying to hide and play humble, and then you have others who don’t have things on lockdown but pretend that they do. It’s the inability to own where you are at any given time. Garrett: Look at the crazy dynamic of this. In your relationship, you’re not where you want to be, so you lie to everyone about where you are, pretending you’re something you ‘re not. Then, you get somewhere that’s legit, and you feel weird about being there, so you lie about where you are and try to downplay it. QUESTION Where in your world do you pretend to be something or someone you’re not?   Point #2: Lambo Be Gone Garrett has had conversations with about five businessmen who have bought a Lamborghini because it’s always been something they’ve wanted. But once they had it, they felt so uncomfortable about what people were saying to them and the attention they were drawing that they ended up selling their car. Garrett: So you get to a place where you’ve created the success and produced something inside of your world, but then you start apologizing for it. You’re at the bottom and trying to up-play; you’re at the top and trying to downplay. When the fuck are you going to accept who you are? QUESTION As you look inside your world, where do you tend to make decisions based on other people’s opinions about you rather than having confidence in your own choices? Point #3: Just the Facts The White’s have experienced both ends of the spectrum, both in their finances and in their marriage. Inside of being at the bottom end of the spectrum, it’s difficult to own where you are and to be honest about it. Garrett: Your greatest access to power inside of yourself and inside of marriage is to actually be honest about where you are. But the vast majority of society right now is filled with this idea that you can’t be ok with where you are, and that you have to constantly pose yourself to be something that you’re not. QUESTION When is the last time you were truly honest about the facts of your life?   Point #4: Sexual Desert Garrett: At 43, I’m at a different level. I’m more mature and I’ve learned to deal with myself in a totally different way than the previous pregnancies. But…I’m getting a little nervous. We’ve created a new routine that is obviously warranted because of the baby, but I get nervous as a guy. What if it (our sexual life) never comes back? Danielle: Pregnancy and sex are awkward for both the guys and the girls. When you’re pregnant, you literally have another human growing inside of you and you’re kind of operating at 65% capacity. You’re trying to be sexy, but everything is more awkward. I’m not really concerned about the next chapter once I’ve recovered and healed…and I’m excited to be back to myself again! QUESTION How have you and your spouse handled the ‘sexual desert’ during pregnancies? Point #5: Taking Risks Garrett: There’s a piece inside all of us that has to make a decision, and it’s a decision that has to be made every day – several times a day. It’s a decision to rise and to build. But most individuals and couples aren’t willing to take the risks necessary. You’ve got to be willing to take a risk. And the first risk you’ve got to take is being honest with yourself. Danielle: You have to get a little uncomfortable. You have to be willing to change or do something different. And some of those things might not be for you but for your man – and he’s going to have to cross the table and do the same thing for you. It might not be something you normally would do but ultimately, it will serve you both and strengthen your relationship. QUESTION When was the last time you took a risk as both an individual and as a couple? Communication Challenge: Have a conversation about taking risks and what that looks like for you inside your marriage. Date Night Topic: How to navigate the Sexual Desert during pregnancy is this week’s Date Night topic. Bounce ideas off each other and truly get honest with how you each feel. Quote of the Week: “If a couple doesn’t get divorced legally, there’s a separation and divorce that has to happen spiritually with people as they start to shift and change. Your marriage – the way it is – has to die in order for it to become the marriage you want it to be.” —Garrett J White “Who’s the poser? Is it the person down-playing or the person up-playing? Is it the person pretending to have what they don’t have, or the person with a shit ton of money pretending that they don’t?” —Danielle K White

Today’s conversation with Garrett and Danielle is about the topic of Money and the important role it plays in your relationship. *This is a previously aired episode from April 2018. Every week married couple Danielle and Garrett J White share insights and perspectives from within their own lives regarding the following topics discussed each month: Week 1: Sex Week 2: Money Week 3: Parenting Week 4: Communication In This Week’s Podcast….MONEY Point #1: Men Must Produce When you make enough money to put your family into abundance, there’s a shift in the way that you see yourself as a man and a shift in the way you see your relationship. It also affects the way your wife sees you. Generally, women want to be taken care of. Even if we can produce, we still want our man to ‘be the man’ and take care of us. A man is sexier to a woman when he’s the one producing. QUESTION Does this ring true for you as a couple? Point #2: Money is a Tool Garrett: Inside of our relationships, money sits at the core. It allows you to do so much shit as a couple or it constrains you to do so much shit as a couple. We have friends who celebrate their success and use it as a tool to inspire other people to create more, and then we have other friends who simply hide it all and pretend like they’re broke. Danielle: There was a period of about five years where we were experiencing rapid growth and we disconnected ourselves from people. I had surface relationships and felt like I was kind of guarding myself. What I’ve come to realize now is that I can have relationships with everyone  – it’s just a matter of me being comfortable with me. QUESTION Are you living in a scarcity mindset while being surrounded by your wealth? Point #3: You Must Leap In 2009 after I had lost everything, I was offered a job from a friend at a very crucial time for me when I didn’t have a lot of belief in myself. I was terrified as a husband and as a producer and had lost all confidence in myself. There came a pivotal moment when I realized my life was in the balance and something in my soul said, “You must fucking leap!” Danielle: When we were dating, I saw Garrett for who he was and who he could become. I knew there were great things in store for him. So when I saw him selling out, I was so upset because I knew what he was capable of doing and becoming so much more. QUESTION Where in your life have you settled? Point #4: Don’t Settle Garrett: One of the greatest gifts my wife has given to me about money is that she rode my ass about it. My wife helped me see that being driven by the money is not about being driven by the money. As you get better and better at making money as a man inside of marriage, inside of that place it forces you to become a new man. Danielle: I think that people play it safe in life in fear of failure. If I leap and I fall on my face, then there are consequences; but if I just stay in the safe zone, then I can just ride this out forever. If you’re listening to this and you’re feeling a stab in the heart to take action in your life, do it. QUESTION Where in your life are you feeling the call to take a leap of faith? Point #5: Team Work Garrett: There are a lot of you here who need to rise. Danielle and I work as a team to push each other. There are times she wants to settle into her little comfortable cocoon and then I kick her straight out of the cocoon, I rip it open and throw her off the cliff. And she does the same for me. Danielle: You can produce way more as a couple if you can get on the same page of experiencing more growth together. If you can take those experiences of who you are as a couple and make them work, two is better than one, at least in my experience for us. We push each other in that way. QUESTION What is your dance as a couple in the way you support each other’s growth? Communication Challenge: Have a conversation as a couple and allow yourself to collide and dream. Sit down and set a target of a game that you could create together. Who can you become as a couple economically? Who can you become as a producer individually or collectively? What would it require for you to become to pull that off? Date Night Topic: Give yourself some credit for where you are. Challenge yourself on your Date Night to have a conversation about possibility or collision. Either one of these paths will lead you to a new position and possibility inside of your life. Quote of the Week: “My money is a reflection of my ability to produce and create value in the marketplace. So I produce and I create more not for the target of having money, but rather we are in this place of a desire to become more, and inside of that we use money production as a way to accelerate that.” —Garrett J White   “Be you at every level.” —Danielle K White  

In this episode: What could be causing acne triggers Ingredients to avoid in your skincare routine Effects of stress & hormones on skin health Understanding what to look for in products & why Danielle and Kayleigh met when Kayleigh, a successful holistic nutritionist and health & wellness blogger, was dealing with Celiac reactions resulting in severe cystic acne and inflammation. She was working to heal internally but was looking for ways to treat her skin externally as well. This led her to Danielle, the owner of the San Diego Acne Clinic. After working with Danielle and realizing that our skin absorbs 60% of what is placed on it (including harmful chemicals, cheap fillers and toxic acne triggering ingredients!), Kayleigh realized the true value of skincare and all the ingredients behind it. After Danielle mentioned that she was beginning to develop her own skincare brand, Kayleigh immediately jumped on board. With her strong nutritional background, obsession for high-quality ingredients and passion for non-toxic, natural skin treatments, it was the perfect match. I am SO excited for today’s episode because it’s a bit different of a topic, but I know it will provide such incredible value! Clearstem founders Danielle & Kayleigh join us to chat all things skin health, acne triggers, stress & hormones, and share their very unique story of how they got to where they are today as owners of an incredibly successful skincare company. They are huge advocates of helping consumers understand how the products we use & environmental issues can affect our skin and really just helping consumers feel knowledgeable to feel empowered to take action & make educated choices. I’ve gotten a ton of DMs on instagram & questions about skin, so I am pumped to bring this episode to you today & I can’t wait to hear what you think!   PUMP-UP JAMS: Go Loko by YG What’s My Age Again by Blink182   Quotes: “The more information you have, the more power you have.” Danielle “You can’t take advice from someone who has a different personality profile than you and expect it to go well for you.” Danielle “The more we can prepare for what’s gonna happen, the easier it is to control that stress anxiety.” Kayleigh “Business is the ability to solve problems while managing your stress.” Danielle “Move fast, learn fast… trust your gut, analyze things, make a decision, move forward.” Danielle “No one has it figured out going in… knowing that and being comfortable asking a million questions and not feeling inferior for asking questions.” Kayleigh   Resources: Hey girl, have you joined our email list yet? Subscribe now Connect with Danielle & Kayleigh on Instagram @clearstemskincare Get more education & take the skin quiz on the Clearstem website: www.clearstemskincare.com Use promo code EMPOWERHER for $10 off your entire order of Clearstem products! Check out ALL my favorite things on Amazon (trampolines, books, & more!) If we aren't connected yet be sure to come hang with me on Instagram @kaciafitzgerald and @empowerHERpodcast or online at www.kaciafitzgerald.com Topic or speaker suggestions? Shoot us an email: hello@kaciafitzgerald.com Follow our EMPOWERHER PUMP-UP JAMS playlist on Spotify!

Salon life sounds like it would be so mellow but…no! It’s insane! It’s the most dramatic shit show you’ve ever seen behind the chair! And the ladies have the stories to prove it! Whether you’re part of salon tribe or not, Danielle & Ani want to hear YOUR stories – your crazy, inspirational, ‘what the fuck’ moments. Send them to ani@hairextensionsecret.com. Who knows? You may be one of the lucky ones who gets pulled in as a surprise guest on a future episode! For Big Money Stylist, we go over the following formula each month: Week #1: Power Week #2: Production Week #3: Profit Week #4: Protection In This Week’s Episode…..POWER Point #1: Mindfucked & Overwhelmed! When you hear the world mindfucked, what does it mean to you? For Danielle, “It’s when your mind just shuts down and becomes paralyzed. And oftentimes, it means that you’re probably headed in the right direction.” For Ani, “It’s totally insane or out of this world. It also translates into business where you are at the point of I can’t fucking do this, it’s insane, crazy, out of my league, what the hell…” QUESTION How do you define mindfucked?   Point #2: Video Tips For Mom Danielle’s mom is in real estate and recently came to Danielle asking questions about videos & funnels. She’s been asked by her company to interview clients and feels a little weird about the logistics of setting up a tripod for the interviews. “The biggest mistake I see people make when starting to do videos and create more content is that they act too professional and stiff, which comes across as inauthentic – more like a CNN scenario than a casual conversation – which doesn’t allow your viewers to connect with you.” QUESTION What can you do to make your videos more personable and less inauthentic?   Point #3: The Funnel Game Danielle went on to explain to her mother the benefits of having a funnel where you provide “free content and value through video that helps people to get to know you and your personality… and where you ask for their email.” Danielle’s mother was intrigued – with an added dash of mindfucked, overwhelm, & lightbulb moments – as Danielle went on to describe in more detail the results of her funnels, as well as the ins and outs of creating and publishing video content – which happens to be a total game changer in the world of hair, initiated by BMS. QUESTION Have you started playing the funnel game yet? If not, what’s one thing you could begin doing today to ultimately create your funnel?   Point #4: More Than a Pretty Picture A lot of artists believe that posting a pretty picture on Instagram is all it’s going to take to attract business when it comes to their advertising. But the complete saturation in the marketplace tells a different story. Danielle: You can’t just have pretty pictures anymore…you CAN’T. People are more likely to come to you if they see a video of you and if they feel comfortable and confident with you. You don’t have to have a million fucking models on your Instagram anymore.” QUESTION What results have you noticed with the implementation of more content in addition to pretty before and after photos in your social media accounts?   Point #5: What’s Your Vibe? “I don’t care if someone is super chummy, but what I do care about is weird energy.” Danielle described an experience she had with an older artist in a different salon where “the outcome wasn’t bad, but I was so disappointed in her energy and the experience.” “On the other hand, I had someone blow out my hair that was super cute, she didn’t talk much, her energy was good, she was happy to be there…and the curls sucked ass! But I still tipped her 30%. I looked like Farah Fawcett but the girl had the best energy and I didn’t care what my curls looked like!” QUESTION What can you do to ensure that the vibe in your salon is on point? Quote of the Week: “Don’t let yourself get overwhelmed! Sometimes your content is going to be fuckin’ stellar, and other times it’s just going to be ok. But it’s better to be consistent than to not do anything at all.” — Danielle K White “You need to slow down to go faster. I swear to God, the faster you try to go some days, the slower it’s going to make you because you start jacking shit up!” —Anianne Rivera  

Welcome to the Big Money Stylist Podcast with co-hosts Danielle K White and Anianne Rivera. The conversation inside this week’s episode includes the importance of taking a stand in your life and also explores the ten top reasons why people don’t start something (business or project) even after feeling inspired to do so. In Big Money Stylist, we go over the following formula each month: Week #1: Power Week #2: Production Week #3: Profit Week #4: Protection In This Week’s Episode…..Power Point #1: SELF DOUBT Ani: When it comes to a dream or idea that you’ve always wanted to accomplish, it’s so freaking scary that instead of immediately thinking ‘I got it’ the first thought is usually ‘I can’t do that!’ When Garrett suggested to Danielle that she start a brand, what initially held her back was that the idea of a brand didn’t even live in the realm of possibility for her. “I could be inspired by others but never once considered it for myself.” QUESTION In what area of your life do you tend to experience the most self-doubt? Point #2: I DON’T HAVE TIME Danielle: The lazier I get, the less I’ll do, but if I’m super busy, the more likely I am to MAKE time. The thing is, there’s always time; it’s just a matter of prioritizing what to choose to do with that time. It’s a matter of consolidating and prioritizing and deciding what will push you forward, and what you value the most. As professional businesswomen with massive amounts of responsibility on their plates, Danielle and Ani have chosen to prioritize their life to include the things that are most important to them, including family time and time for themselves. QUESTION What can you do to prioritize your time in order to make room for what’s most important to you? Point #3: WHERE DO I START? When you’re beginning a project or wanting to start a business, it can seem so overwhelming in the beginning as you think about everything that you need to do, which stops many people from moving forward. And many women think that committing to something will take time away from their children, which is the opposite of what they want. Ani: Just because you have children, it doesn’t mean that you have to be with them – or that they even want to be with you – 24/7. Danielle: You can commit to being a mom AND doing something else; it all comes down to a choice. QUESTION What have you been considering doing as a mom with kids but have been putting it off? Point #4: TARGETS & PASSIONS Danielle: If you look at the big picture, which is a year’s worth of goals and targets, you’ve got to remember that you’re not going to accomplish these in a week. If you think that way, you’ll go nuts. The key is creating calendars and then setting realistic goals and targets each month, one week at a time. Ani: A lot of people have these big ideas and dreams of things they would love to do. But if it’s not your passion, that’s going to make it a thousand times harder. I’ve been here for eighteen months and yet it feels like I’ve been here for five years. The more moves you make – and the quicker you’re willing to make them – the faster that timeline moves. QUESTION What is one thing you can do today to begin creating realistic targets towards your dreams? Point #5:  LACK OF CONSISTENCY Throughout their careers, both Danielle and Ani have learned that staying consistent has been the key to their success. The thing to remember though is this: when you’re starting out at something, you’re going to be shitty. That’s just how it is. Danielle: It’s hard to be passionate about staying consistent when you know you suck at what you’re doing. But it’s through consistency that, over time, you realize how far you’ve come, eventually becoming an expert in your field. Don’t underestimate the small consistencies on a daily basis that ultimately can create huge wins in your life. QUESTION Where in your world do you lack consistency? Quote of the Week: “Don’t underestimate the small consistencies on a daily basis that can ultimately create huge wins in your life.” —Danielle K White “You just have to make a decision. Are you going to let these reasons hold you back? Or, are you going to acknowledge that you have no idea how you’re going to accomplish your dream… and then ask yourself, ‘What’s the first thing I need to do?’ Do that. Then take it step by step.” –Anianne Rivera  

In this week’s episode, Danielle arrives in an impressive head-to-toe 80s look as she and Ani take a walk down the memory lane of fashion and style. They also explore the ever important topic of research, how to handle your clients’ expectations, and share the steps they are taking that are radically challenging the hair industry’s wide-spread “pay-to-play” policy. In Big Money Stylist, we go over the following formula each month: Week #1: Power Week #2: Production Week #3: Profit Week #4: Protection In This Week’s Episode…..PROTECTION Point #1: Embrace Change Fashions and styles come and go and have a tendency to repeat every thirty years or so. Danielle remarks, “Let go of the old and accept the new. The old becomes the new new, so just let go.” “While short haircuts are trendy, extensions are always going to be classic and cool. We just need to make sure the styles stay consistent with the times.” QUESTION What fashions or styles have been your favorites through the years? Point #2: Hand-Tied Hair Extension hair comes machine-tied and hand-tied. Sixteen years ago, Danielle discovered hand-tied hair. She liked it because the weft was so much thinner and the density from top to bottom was so much fuller.  Hand-tied hair is super trendy right now. It’s important to do your research because there are so many different installation methods. Natural Beaded Rows is one of the installation methods of the hand-tied hair. QUESTION As an Artist, what different types of installation methods have you exerienced? Point #3: Time, Reps & Experience Ani: You can be doing something for ten years but are only doing it for five minutes every day, or you can be doing something for a year but are spending seven hours a day doing it. I’ll choose the seven-hour person every time. Danielle: You have to have reps in something in order to become an expert. When people say they’ve been doing hair for 20-30 years, they don’t understand that the experience you’ve had, Ani, could be equal to or more than what they’ve done. QUESTION Where in your world do you know you’re lacking reps? Point #4: Managing Client Expectations When you have a client who hasn’t experienced extensions, you need to take more time with them and describe how to take care of the extensions. You almost need to baby them at first. It’s also important to be able to have direct communication with them which you may not be accustomed to doing. Yet, as the professional, it’s vital that you have these direct conversations with them. (What is your hair policy? Do they need new hair? How long is your work guaranteed?) QUESTION How can your improve the direct conversations with your clients? Point #5:  The World of Pay to Play Ani: Inside the hair world, you pay to play. You paid your money so now you’re ‘qualified and certified.’ The changes we’ve made inside of our education now means something. It means something to do NBR, it means something to be a licensed artist, not just, “I paid money, took one class, and now I’m certified.” Danielle: We had to make some hard decisions within our education. We pumped on the brakes and put qualifications in place. We received a lot of backlash for it but that’s ok. There’s no point being in business if you’re not trying to up the game. It’s always important to take a step back and look at the reality of where you are. QUESTION What have you done lately to “up your game?” Quote of the Week:  “People are giving way too much credit to popularity vs actually doing the research. Not every artist, salon, or technique is created equal.” –Danielle K White “As a consumer myself, I do crazy research and am super psycho about it. It’s that important to me.” –Anianne Rivera

In this week's episode about Parenting, Garrett and Danielle engage in a lively conversation about the work that is required as a man to actually stay connected to his children, why sometimes as a man the only reason why you’re actually spending time with your children is because you think you’re getting points with your wife that will ultimately lead to sex, and how creating space and loving yourself are two of the ultimate gifts you can give to your children. Every week married couple Danielle and Garrett J White share insights and perspectives from within their own lives regarding the following topics discussed each month: Week 1: Sex Week 2: Money Week 3: Parenting Week 4: Communication   In This Week's Podcast....PARENTING Point #1: Ulterior Motives There are some twisted reasons why guys want to spend time with their children. I used to spend time with my kids because I thought I was earning points with Danielle which would ultimately end up with me getting laid. What I wanted to do was to spend time with my children but had gotten stuck in the very interesting place where I was trying to find an entry point into connection. The vast majority of my married life was in pursuit of getting laid. QUESTION: Where in your relationship do have ulterior motives for the things you do? Point #2: Creating Space Garrett: As a businessman, it's crucial to give myself permission to create space for me beyond my business, beyond my beautiful wife and beyond my amazing children. If you don’t give yourself this space, you’re going to find yourself getting exhausted and fatigued. Surfing has given me the time that I get to be with myself, and in that place I become a better father and a better husband. Danielle: You have to be careful with your hobbies and interests because when they become too much of an obsession, it can actually take away time from your kids and family. It's easy to get obsessed over something and then you have to try to figure out how to find a balance with it and not let it overly consume you. QUESTION: What do you do to create space for yourself? Point #3: Parker I have a son who is 19 years old and has been living with us for the past six weeks. It’s the first time since he was six months old that he has chosen to live with his father, and the first time since forever that he has decided to call me dad. It was ultimately Wake Up Warrior that brought my son back into my life. Danielle:What you thought was lost because you didn't raise him is coming full circle. The timing plays a big roll in how things work out and it's happening how it should. Garrett: The timing with Parker being here inside of my world at this time is perfect. There’s a lot of things that had to happen for this to play out and I’m very happy and excited about it. QUESTION: Where in your life is perfect timing showing up in a way you never expected? Point #4: Boobs and Tattoos When Danielle was 18, she had breast augmentation and always felt they were too big for her tiny frame.  After her recent miscarriage, she decided to have them replaced despite the huge mommy guilt and fear she was experiencing , and despite the fact that Garrett was a little worried about her breasts getting smaller. When it was all said and done, she felt so happy and she wondered why she had waited so long do to it. Garrett: You wanted to do the boob job and it was something that you felt like you needed to do. I wanted this tattoo on my arm but you were against it. Inside of both of these moves it has given us something as individuals and parents that we can actually give back to our children. QUESTION: What have each of you done in your relationship that the other hasn't been too thrilled about at the time, but in the end you have accepted as part of what makes the other happy? Point #5: Love Yourself What does God ultimately want? Love thy neighbor as thyself: love your wife as you love yourself, love your children as you love yourself. If you hate yourself, it is actually impossible to love your wife or to love your children. If you hate yourself, what you will offer up is a manipulative bullshit motivational game of love to your children. I have learned to appreciate the fact that I am a complete fuck up and at the same time, I’m completely fantastic. When I come to accept all the vastness of who I am, inside of that I’m given this permission slip to experience it with my children and my wife.. QUESTION: What's stopping you from fully loving and accepting yourself? Communication Challenge: Bring up the conversation with your family the importance of loving yourself in order to more fully love others. Date Night Topic: What are you going to do this week in creating space for yourself beyond your partner and your children so that you have the ability to actually be a very present parent and partner? Quote of the Week: "Most of what has changed within our relationship is a deep appreciation and understanding for who I am, and inside of understanding that truth, being willing to do things for me because I want to do them for me - not because I need Danielle’s permission, not because I want Danielle to like it, but because I know that inside of doing it, it's going to be something I feel I need to do." --Garrett J White "Respect yourself and you’ll respect others. Respect your children and they will respect you. Respect people you are around and work with, they will respect you. Just be fuckin nice. There’s a lot to be learned in being nice and liking yourself, taking time for yourself, taking time for others and creating balance in your life." --Danielle K White  

Production is the topic this week as the ladies discuss tools of strategic marketing to attract clients and team members, how being real makes us more vulnerable and trustworthy, that where we are in life is based on the choices we make, and how it's necessary to let Assertive Sally take the stage when things need to get done. For Big Money Stylist, we go over the following formula each month: Week #1: Power Week #2: Production Week #3: Profit Week #4: Protection In This Week's Episode.....PRODUCTION Point #1: Throw Yourself Under the Bus It's in our nature to want to look perfect all of the time. Yet, when you allow others to see the real you, that's what make you relatable as a human being. When you throw yourself under the bus and allow people to get to know the real you, sans the filters and editing, you become more trustworthy in people's eyes. Danielle: Back in the day when I started my brand on YouTube, people saw the real me. I'd talk about my sucky hair and show them the products that I used. I threw myself under the bus all the time. That's what people can relate to - someone who is real, someone who is like them. If you place yourself too high above others, they won't trust you or even be able to relate to you. QUESTION: In your experience, do you tend to trust and relate to people who expose their flaws or people who wear a mask of perfection? Point #2: Assertive Sally As women, we tend to play small and we don't want to be labeled as the mean woman or the crazy bitch. But you need to access that authoritative power to lay shit down and get shit done. At the end of the day, shit's going to go sideways at some point, and the nice, Passive Aggressive Polly in you is never going to get anything done. Danielle: I have this surgeon side where everything is black and white,  where I micro manage everything. And then I have the me I love - my artist hippy side. In my business, both sides of me are needed. Don't be afraid to  allow Sally Assertive to show up when things need to get done. QUESTION: Where in your life are you avoiding useful confrontation or collision because of your beliefs about how women 'should' show up? Point #3: Create Your Dream Team Marketing to attract the ideal client is essential, but have you ever thought about marketing to attract the ideal team member for your salon; someone who will be an asset to your team and help continue marketing and promoting your brand? Danielle: You create who you work with and who you work on. As stylists, we have a story about who we are and who we take on as clients - that we're just so grateful to have clients and to have help. Actually, a little more research needs to go into finding the right team member that fits the vibe and the vision of where we want to go. QUESTION: What do you think about your team? Is it your Dream Team? Point #4: Superwoman Coach Ani: What we do is not easy and is a lot of work. When people say they want to do what we're doing, what they're seeing are the highlight reels - the podcasts, the events, the results. What they're not seeing is the amount of work and hustle that's required behind the scenes to create and manage everything. Danielle: I got to a place where I had no 'me' time. I kept adding things to my checklist and found myself staying up late doing follow up emails and blogs, getting up early and then doing it all over again, day in and day out. It was a shitshow. QUESTION: Where are you spreading yourself too thin? How is that working for you? Point #5: Surrender and Choose Your Story Danielle: You choose your outcome and you choose how fast you grow. It takes consistency of choosing to create a better day, every single day. People give up too quickly and say it's too far out of their reach. Where I am today seemed impossible just a few years ago, but now that I'm here, it doesn't seem so far fetched or out of my reach anymore - something shifts. Power is all about capacity. When you're uncomfortable and you don't know what to do, and you don't know how to go forward, you're just reaching your capacity. You have two options: You can shrink back or you can push through. That version of you will die, but you grow to become something else - a better version of yourself. QUESTION: In your experience, when you have reached your capacity, what do you do to push through? Quote of the Week: "If you feel something is uncomfortable or unnatural, maybe you should visit that. I would challenge everyone who's listening to ask yourself: where am I feeing uncomfortable?  Can I challenge myself to break through that and learn things about myself?  Don't be afraid of change, you're just becoming a better version of yourself." -- Danielle White "When I sat on the beach and Garrett asked us to close our eyes and envision where we wanted to be in a year, a voice said this is where you are supposed to be. So it became an obsession for me. I kept asking myself, what do I have to do to get there? I saw that it could be done differently, so why wouldn't I do it?" Once I decide I don't want to be where I am, I realize that no one can change it and no one can save me, but that everything is up to me." --Anianne Rivera "Just put in the work. It's so crazy to see growth when it happens. It's the hustle and the grind every single day that people don't want to do that actually gets you the results you want. So stop being shy about putting in the work.  If you have goals or things in life that you're trying to achieve, do the work." --McKenzi Davis   Stay Tuned for Next Week's Topic....PROFIT  

Welcome to Date Night with the White’s here on the Date Your Wife podcast. Today's conversation with Garrett and Danielle is about the topic of Money and the important role it plays in your relationship. Every week married couple Danielle and Garrett J White share insights and perspectives from within their own lives regarding the following topics discussed each month: Week 1: Sex Week 2: Money Week 3: Parenting Week 4: Communication   In This Week's Podcast....MONEY Point #1: Men Must Produce  When you make enough money to put your family into abundance, theres a shift in the way that you see yourself as a man and a shift in the way you see your relationship. It also affects the way your wife sees you. Generally, women want to be taken care of. Even if we can produce, we still want our man to ‘be the man’ and take care of us. A man is sexier to a woman when he's the one producing. QUESTION: Does this ring true for you as a couple? Point #2: Be Comfortable Garrett: Inside of our relationships, money sits at the core. It allows you to do so much shit as a couple or it constrains you to do so much shit as a couple. We have friends who celebrate their success and use it as tool to inspire other people to create more, and then we have other friends who simply hide it all and pretend like they're broke. Danielle:There was a period of about five years where we were experiencing rapid growth and we disconnected ourselves from people. I had surface relationships and felt like I was kind of guarding myself. What I've come to realize now is that I can have relationships with everyone  - it's just a matter of me being comfortable with me. QUESTION: Are you living in a scarcity mindset while being surrounded by your wealth? Point #3: You Must Leap In 2009 after I had lost everything, I was offered a job from a friend at a very crucial time for me when I didn’t have a lot of belief in myself. I was terrified as a husband and as a producer and had lost all confidence in myself. There came a pivotal moment when I realized my life was in the balance and something in my soul said "you must fucking leap." Danielle: When we were dating, I saw Garrett  for who he was and who he could become. I knew there were great things in store for him. So when I saw him selling out, I was so upset because I knew what he was capable of doing and becoming so much more. QUES5ION: Where in your life have you settled? Point #4: Don't Settle Garrett: One of the greatest gifts my wife has given to me about money is that she rode my ass about it. My wife helped me see that being driven by the money is not about being driven by the money. As you get better and better at making money as a man inside of marriage, inside of that place it forces you to become a new man. Danielle: I think that people play it safe in life in fear of failure. If I leap and I fall on my face, then there’s consequences; but if I just stay in the safe zone then I can just ride this out forever. If you’re listening to this and you’re feeling a stab in the heart to take action in your life, do it. QUESTION: Where in your life are you feeling the call to take a leap of faith? Point #5: Team Work Garrett: There are a lot of you here who need to rise. Danielle and I work as a team to push each other. There are times she wants to settle into her little comfortable cocoon and then I kick her straight out of the cocoon, I rip it open and throw her off the cliff. And she does the same for me. Danielle: You can produce way more as a couple if you can get on the same page of experiencing more growth together. If you can take those experiences of who you are as a couple and make them work, two is better than one, at least in my experience for us. We push each other in that way. QUESTION: What is your dance as a couple in the way you support each other's growth? Communication Challenge: Have a conversation as a couple and allow yourself to collide and dream. Sit down and set a target of a game that you could create together. Who can you become as a couple economically? Who can you become as a producer individually or collectively? What would it require for you to become to pull that off? Date Night Topic: Give yourself some credit for where you are. Challenge yourself on your Date Night to have a conversation about possibility or collision. Either one of these paths will lead you to a new position and possibility inside of your life. Quote of the Week: "The reason why money matters and the reason why business matters - the reason why continuing to grow and expand matters -  is because as you get better and better at making money as a man inside of marriage, inside of that place it forces you to become a new man. I’m not the same human being I was a year ago. My money is a reflection of my ability to produce and create value in the marketplace. So I produce and I create more not for the target of having money, but rather we are in this place of a desire to become more, and inside of that we use money production as a way to accelerate that. --Garrett J White   "Be you at every level." --Danielle K White