Podcast appearances and mentions of Glen Martin

Helium-3 is an important isotope for technological and energy innovation driving the net-zero transition. It's very rare on Earth but found commonly on the Moon. In the latest episode of Sustainability Leaders, Michael Torrance, Chief Sustainability Officer at BMO, catches up with Glen Martin, Chief Executive Officer of The Extraterrestrial Mining Company (XMC), to discuss mining Helium-3 on the Moon and how space exploration will be part of the energy transition on Earth.

My guest this week is Glen Martin, Co-Founder & CEO of Extraterrestrial Mining Company (XMC), discusses his company's bold mission to mine Helium-3 on the Moon and its potential to revolutionize energy and tech on Earth.  

On November 18th, I hosted a webinar called "How Professional Screenwriters Create Great Characters", where I talked about how to come up with interesting and unique characters, as well as how tapping into your everyday life interactions with people can help with this. This episode addresses questions you asked in our Q&A session that we didn't have time to answer. There's lots of great info here, make sure you watch.Show NotesA Paper Orchestra on Website: - https://michaeljamin.com/bookA Paper Orchestra on Audible: - https://www.audible.com/ep/creator?source_code=PDTGBPD060314004R&irclickid=wsY0cWRTYxyPWQ32v63t0WpwUkHzByXJyROHz00&irgwc=1A Paper Orchestra on Amazon: - https://www.amazon.com/Audible-A-Paper-Orchestra/dp/B0CS5129X1/ref=sr_1_4?crid=19R6SSAJRS6TU&keywords=a+paper+orchestra&qid=1707342963&sprefix=a+paper+orchestra%2Caps%2C149&sr=8-4A Paper Orchestra on Goodreads: - https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/203928260-a-paper-orchestraFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Newsletter - https://michaeljamin.com/newsletterAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:And why are we rooting for him? We're rooting for this meek man who's going to die soon to make some money for his family, but also to feel like he's alive for the first time in his life because he's just lived this very meek existence. And so that's why we're rooting for him. That's why we like him. And when he makes mistakes, he may go off track, but we hope he comes back. We're still rooting for him. You are listening to What The Hell Is Michael Jamin talking about conversations in writing, art, and creativity. Today's episode is brought to you by my debut collection of True Stories, a paper orchestra available in print, ebook and audiobook to purchase and to support me on this podcast, please visit michael jamin.com/book and now on with the show. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin and you're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Well, today we're doing another q and a from II's free writing webinars, and there's a lot of questions that people had. We couldn't answer 'em all on the end. We ran out of time, and so we're going to address 'em here. But this episode, Phil, I'm here with Phil Hudson.Phil Hudson:What up, Phil?Michael Jamin:Today's episode is brought to you by a paper orchestra, which is my collection of personal essays. It's David Saris meets Neil Simon on sale on my website, michael jamin.com, or you can find it anywhere. Books are sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, apple Books, all those places. Go get it. Go check it out. It's a fun read. Yeah. Okay.Phil Hudson:Worth checking out all the versions though too. I was just listening to the audio book and we talked about this in your episode about the book itself, but the music cues and the intros, very well done. Very well produced. You're also telling me about, thank you, Phil, how hellacious of a process it was to do itMichael Jamin:ToPhil Hudson:The quality you like.Michael Jamin:Yes. Because you only get to put it out once, but yeah. But thank you. So Phil got the audio book, but it's available ebook and print as well, however you consume your written materials. Love it. Alright, Phil, we got some questions. Enough about me. Let's ask me some questions.Phil Hudson:Yeah, let's talk to you some more about you. This is from the November 18th webinar. These are like you said, q and A stuff, and the topic of this webinar was how professional screenwriters create great characters. This was, I think, a first run on this topic. You hadn't done this topic before.Michael Jamin:It could be. Yeah, this was a good one. Yeah, this turned out to be a good one I thought.Phil Hudson:I think so too. We can tell, there's some metrics we can tell in terms of how long people stay, questions that are asked, how long it goes. And I was going to say too, we didn't get to these questions because typically when we first started doing this almost a year ago, February will be a year doing these. It was like 30 minutes of lesson and then it was a bunch of q and a and that has transitioned into about 45 minutes of lesson and then a little bit of q and a where we can get it. And then we even have VIPQ and A now where you can just pay a small fee to join for an hour after and you just talk to people on Zoom and they get to go live and ask you questions and some really, really good questions being asked in that. So if you're interested in attending these webinars, go to michael jamin.com/webinar where you can sign up for that. But then you can also sign up on that page to get into the VIP. If you want to ask Michael directly a question that you have if youMichael Jamin:Can't get to it. So to be clear, the webinars are always free, and if you want to spend extra time with me, that costs you something. But I should also say right now it seems like we have four that we're going to have a rotation, but we may keep adding different topics, but right now we have four good ones, so if you missed it, just sign up and maybe we'll do it again. CorrectPhil Hudson:Me if I'm wrong, but I think some of the topics you've come up with have come from the q and a that you do on these topics. How do I overcome? Writer's block are like, I'm really struggling with a character or development. So they kind of incept the idea of like, okay, here's a topic we should go down. So lots of great value there. Alright, well again, just for housekeeping, we do split these up into topics. So we have kind of general topics. We have craft breaking in questions related to your course or the webinar topic and then miscellaneous. So we're going to start with K Craft. I think again, people want to know how to do the job, which I think is helpful.Michael Jamin:Yes.Phil Hudson:So Chad, Chad Siime or cme, I don't know how to pronounce that. Sorry, Chad,Michael Jamin:He doesn't, doesn't know either.Phil Hudson:He probably's probably making it up. Was it like Ari, one of the writers in Taco, they pronounced their name. It was changed at one point.Michael Jamin:Yeah, he says his own name wrong. Poor guy.Phil Hudson:I know someone who was a Heinrich and then when World War II happened, they changed it to Heinrich, Henrik Henrich because they didn't want to be associated.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah.Phil Hudson:There you go. Chad asked, do you have examples of writers who have successfully experimented with story structure? What principles did they stick to and where did they deviate?Michael Jamin:I don't really know. I mean, I don't really know if I have a good answer to that. Every time I watch something I go, oh, it falls into the good. I guess there's some really high level writing. Christopher Nolan. Okay. So I would say many of his movies do not fit what I would teach, like Memento, but Forget or Inception. I don't know how many times I've watched it and I still don't understand it. So it's a great movie though.Phil Hudson:Yeah. But I would say that I can see that clearly the writing structure in those.Michael Jamin:You can. Okay.Phil Hudson:Oh yeah, you're definitely an inception too. It's like how do we get on this journey and how are we making decisions and where this stakes, all that stuff. I think it's all,Michael Jamin:A lot of it playing at the timeline, memento when he's playing with it. I don't even know what year it's supposed toPhil Hudson:Be. You're right. But I wonder if that's, it's all there and it's just been split to change and mess with your head a bit, but it's all there, which is why it resonates with people.Michael Jamin:But I guess my advice is like, listen, if you want to operate at the high level, that's great, but let's just get to the professional level first before you become the masterPhil Hudson:Level. And Christopher Nolan's a great example of that because he had made a feature before he did Memento, so he had a full feature. He was making short films all the time in film school before he even started experimenting with timelines and things like that. Yeah, okay. Listen to me just arguing. Michael jamin on his own podcast.Michael Jamin:What do I know? You might bePhil Hudson:Right, maybe my head did get big. Kevin and Steve. Alright, Marianne wants to know, you have such a great understanding of human nature. Was there something you've always been good at or did you develop it as a writer?Michael Jamin:No, I didn't. I have a very low emotional iq. My parents are great people, well, great parents, but terrible, low emotional IQs themselves just because that's the household they grew up in. And so it's not a knock on them, it's just like this is the product of your parents. This is how they communicate. And so a lot of this I learned I gained from my wife just from being with her. And then the rest of it, of course, I learned as I became, I became a writer because that's your job as a writer is to really understand people and to get into their shoes. And one of the, it's so funny, I've spoken about this in the past, but my first writing teacher was a guy who really wanted everyone to be in psychoanalysis. That's what he called it because he was so old. They don't even call it like that anymore.It's psychotherapy. But he thought every writer has to be in psychoanalysis because if you don't understand yourself, how could you possibly understand someone else and you or a character? And I think he's absolutely right. I didn't want to believe he was right, but he is right. If you don't understand yourself, and most people do not, and we know this because they go through life unconscious of the people of the damage they're leaving, of the people they're hurting because they're just not even aware of it. And you see it all the time. You could see it on social media, people saying really mean things. It's like you might even be a good person, but why would you put that in print? What is wrong with you that you would say that? What part of yourself is so wounded that you think you need to say this in writing? And so I appreciate the compliment, but everyone else, I'm a work in progress and I think writing definitely has helped me.Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's great. Albert Klein wants to know, and this is again contextual here. These are people who are live chatting questions throughout this episode or this webinar. But I said relatability is key in full caps. I think where you're talking about with the characters. Do these characters need to be relatable? Do I need to understand who they'reMichael Jamin:Yeah, and it's the same thing with Tony Soprano. How do we relate to a mobster? I don't, and he's probably a sociopath as well, but what we can relate is the fact that we know what it's like to be a boss. Maybe you know what it's like to be a boss, to have people undermining you, your underlings. And he certainly had those problems. We know what it's like to be a father and to have children that are rebellious or whatever. That's the part we relate to with, so we don't relate to the part where he's going to wax somebody because he's late with the whatever. But we do relate to this other issues, which isPhil Hudson:Anxiety, the stress and family life. His psychotic mother.Michael Jamin:And that's what the show is about. It's not aboutPhil Hudson:Crazy. He deals with his in-laws too. Joey Pants, I think is his brother-in-Law or something, right?Michael Jamin:I don't remember whatPhil Hudson:He was. Yeah. Anyway, it's all relatable because it is just a heightened version of what go through. Yeah,Michael Jamin:His job is a little more interesting than our job, but it's all, that's not what it's about. It's not about the mafia, it's about the emotions that we all relate to.Phil Hudson:Great answer. Reik vid. So do you find the anti-hero more interesting than a traditional hero?Michael Jamin:Anti-hero is not even a term I use. I don't know. I think everyone, your hero has to be likable. I don't know. I can't even say I've lost interest. If your character is so unlikable, I don't really care what happens to him or her. I am out. So this notion of anti-hero, I don't even think of your writing that way. You have a hero. I think anti-heroes is one of these terms that, I dunno, expert writers will tell you it's an anti-hero. What?Phil Hudson:Yeah, people say that. People have said that the whole time since I've said I've wanted to study screenwriting or be a writer publicly said, oh, I'll describe what I like. Oh, you like an anti-hero? Batman's an anti-hero. And I was like, why? He's not goody hoo Superman. You've described him. He is a deeply wounded person who is using every resource he has, all of his willpower to stop other people from suffering.Michael Jamin:And how is he, I mean, we were on his side. He's complicated, but we're on his side. We're rooting for him. If we're not, we got a problem.Phil Hudson:Alright. What about Walter WhiteMichael Jamin:Breaking back? Yeah. What about Walter White? So that's a great, is he an anti-hero? I don't know. Who cares? To me, he's a guy who's dying in the pilot episode. He's dying, he's a teacher, so he doesn't have any money. What is he going to leave his family when he's gone? He's got to come up with money fast. And the only way he knows how to do that fast is by capitalizing on his skillset, which is he's a chemistry teacher so he can make meth in a lab. Does that make him an anti-hero? To me, he's just a hero.Phil Hudson:He's a person. And then you find out that he gave up tremendous wealth because that was like, he had that partnership at that company where he had the ability to adjust multimillions of dollars and he's a public school chemistry teacher. So it's those layers of decisions and regret. It's exploring the human condition. Definitely justMichael Jamin:And why are we rooting for him? We're rooting for this meek man who's going to die soon to make some money for his family, but also to feel like he's alive for the first time in his life because he's just this very meek existence. And so that's why we're rooting for him. That's why we like him. And when he makes mistakes, he may go off track, but we hope he comes back. We're still rooting for him.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Great. Chad, back again. Chad, how deep should someone go in developing a film or television character knowing that the director actor in the show's evolution will shape their personality?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, you should go deep enough to get their interest so that they want to buy your work or work with you. But just know that's the thing about film. The minute you sign up for a film or you sell your film, the director's in charge, they're the boss. It's their movie. They might fire you. They're going to probably hire five other writers to rewrite the hell out of you. You may not even get screen credit because that'll be arbitrated by the Writer's Guild. Which writer did the most work on it? And so you should do as much possible as work possible to entice people to get on board your project. But once they get on board, you're out. Except in tv, it's a little different tv. The writer is the boss, not the director.Phil Hudson:And the actor needs to play that role. Right? You've got to entice them with your writing. And then good for you, man, congratulations. You can cry about it and wipe your tears with a hundred dollars bills,Michael Jamin:Right? Or write something. Write a book. If you're so protective, then do it your way. Write a bookPhil Hudson:Like me.Michael Jamin:Listen, like me, a paper orchestra available @michaeljamin.com or Amazon or Barnes and Nobles or Apple Books or anywhere books are found. And now back to our show film. Excellent Commercial Break.Phil Hudson:KU Ghana. I'm so sorry. I did not get that right. How would you go about creating a character who is far removed from your life, for example, based on a myth or legend? And it seems like there's a two-parter here, so maybe addressMichael Jamin:That one. How would I go about, well, what's the second part maybe? Or is it so unrelatedPhil Hudson:And advice for generating side characters, how to get the balance right between, so,Michael Jamin:Oh, that part. I could teach in the course, the side characters, but how do I go about creating characters that are, what was the first that were mythical or something?Phil Hudson:If you have characters are so far removed from who you are, and I'm assuming this is the job or the thing they do not necessarily the difference in who they are saying myth or legendary heroes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, I would say try to do some research if you're not modeling it after someone, if a psychopath get to know them and try to figure out steal from them or a family member or someone. And if you don't, then it's on you to do a lot of research. Then you're going to have to get books on people who you want to be authentic. You don't want to, that's part of your job is the research part.Phil Hudson:Yeah,Michael Jamin:I prefer to steal, I prefer to steal from people. I know.Phil Hudson:There you go. That's why all of his crazy characters are named Phil Hudson. I couldn't figure it out. But this ties back to David s goer's comment about the Man of Steel movie that he wrote and he asked, what's the theme? He's like, it's about fathers and it's like Superman has an Earth father, but he has this other father and it's literally dealing with your father relationships. And then the second one is about mothers, and it's Batman and Superman dealing with this. Both of their mothers are Martha and they're struggling. And so there's this balance even of, we all know what it's like. You can even jump to Iron Man and Civil War when they're fighting and he's fighting. He finds out this other character killed his mom and Captain America is trying to stop him. And he goes, he killed my mom. And he's like, you can't be mad at Iron Man for wanting to fight this guy who's been his ally because he killed his mom. Even if the guy doesn't remember doing it, he kills your mom. So that's all super heightened, super superhero things. But what I'm trying to get to is there's humanity in every character and your life experience mining your life for stories like Michael teaches. That's how you do that.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Okay. Kim wants to know what about inner conflict, like being raised strictly religiously and discovering the joys of secular humanism and the transition from the medieval mindset to Renaissance?Michael Jamin:Well, you're probably a better person to answer than me.Phil Hudson:So this feels very specific to a type of story that they're writing.But when we talk about internal conflict, this is something I struggle with because as someone who's religious and been raised religious, I'm not anti-religious. I'm still very active in my faith and there are a lot of people who are very interested in what it means to be a Mormon, to be a latter day saint. I've struggled with how to approach that type of story. You've been telling me to write that for a long time, and I've struggled because I don't want to be preachy and I don't want to tear down my faith. And then I did find a balance and that balance is, let me just take a step back and look at all of the characters that I grew up with in this secular religion and what is so intriguing about the mommy blogger, the multilevel marketer, the jock has been who's now a real estate or the guy who went on to sell summer sales and has so much money but zero personality and then puts some interesting character struggling with their faith in the middle of that so you can exploreMichael Jamin:Because these are all characters that you grew up with in your faith,Phil Hudson:TheMichael Jamin:Multilevel, all of these people. Do you think Mormonism has something? Do you think there's a trait in Mormonism that applies to m multilevel marketing or something?Phil Hudson:I do, yeah. There's no better networked religion I think than the LDS faith. You, everything's divided geographically. You have 10 congregations that are geographically divided in what we call a stake. Then you have wards, which is literally a term to define a geographical area. So your neighbors all go to church with you, you do this, you know everybody, you know their name, you're encouraged to know their families and look after them and take care of them. And this is like pioneer heritage. This is a religion that was chased out of city after city, A Mormon extermination order made it legal to kill us in Missouri. And it wasn't appealed until the 1960s or seventies. They circle the wagons mentality of pilgrims or pioneers and they still treat it that way. And so present yourself nicely taken to an extreme is have perfect teeth. Go to the gym for three hours a day, wear nice clothes, live above your means, keep up with the Joneses. Really. It's like I totally see that I didn't grow up in that type of familyMichael Jamin:In that room. That's interesting to me. See, but you feel like if you were to writePhil Hudson:That you'd be caring? No, now I'm saying I know how to do that and I do know how to explore it because I'm not making fun of the religion necessarily or my theology. I am doing something that has always been interesting. It's the hypocrisy,Michael Jamin:The hypocrisy,Phil Hudson:The hypocrisy of it. And there's a lot of that. It's befriend everybody, but don't play with those kids. They don't go to church. Oh, I see. Interesting. If Jesus said we should love our neighbor as ourselves, then why are we not playing with the kid who's just moved here from South Dakota? So there's all those things. So what I would say advice is you need to look at what is interesting and what's your personal feelings about those things. And I left Utah because I didn't like necessarily the culture. It wasn't about the religion that was prominent there. It was the culture of the people, and that is something I have a lot of opinion about. So why am I not writing about that?Michael Jamin:Yeah, right. Good,Phil Hudson:Good. You'll be getting a draft within the next month or so fromMichael Jamin:Michael. Good. Send it along. You are listening to What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? Today's episode is brought to you by my new book, A paper Orchestra, A collection of True Stories. John Mayer says, it's fantastic. It's multi timal. It runs all levels of the pyramid at the same time. His knockout punches are stinging, sincerity, and Kirker view says those who appreciate the power of simple stories to tell us about human nature or who are bewitched by a storyteller who has mastered his craft will find a delightful collection of vignettes, a lovely anthology that strikes a perfect balance between humor and poignancy. So my podcast is not advertiser supported. I'm not running ads here. So if you'd like to support me or the podcast, come check out my book, go get an ebook or a paperback or if you really want to treat yourself, check out the audio book. Go to michael jamin.com/book and now back to our show.Phil Hudson:John wants to know, so if you choose the worst person to go on a journey, does that mean you came up with a scenario or premise or actual journey first? This goes back to in this episode or this webinar, you said it's not about finding the perfect character, it's finding the Yeah. And then I want to let people watch that webinar so they can get this thing here.Michael Jamin:Yeah. The question basically is which comes first character or the story? And to me it's the story. If most people say, oh, well I'm writing a movie about a guy, whatever comes back from the war with post-traumatic stress syndrome and now have to integrate into the real world, okay, that's the story. So now you have to go, who's the character? What's the best character for that story? Was he a seal, a navy seal or was he one of these accountant pencil pushers? He might've been a grill cook or something and I didn't sign up for this, and now he's coming back to the railroad with PTSD because the bomb went off or something. So that might be more interesting than a seal. I don't know. But you came up with a story first.Phil Hudson:Oh, can you imagine? You have legitimate PTSD and there's stories from even World War ii. It's like things are bad when the chef is loading their pistol. When the cook is loading it, they advance so far across the line that the cooking staff are now preparing to defend themselves. That's a problem. So you imagine that guy comes back and he's in a support group and he's like, yeah, I'm just struggling. And people are talking about, well, we dropped in, we night roped fast, roped in at night to get this guy and an IED went off and this guy is like, well, yeah, our position was overrun. I was like, and what did you do? I was like, I was a cook, and it diminishes your PTSD, but it shouldn't. But it's like That's fascinating.Michael Jamin:Yeah, you may go into the army because you want to become a dentist and the army will pay you to become, learn how to become a dentist, but you're not signing up to carry a pistol. You're signing up to drill teeth and somehow if you got PTSD, like you're saying, your base was overrun or a bomb went up or whatever, this is not what I signed up for and that might be interesting.Phil Hudson:Very interesting. I want to see that story. Yeah. Four eyes concepts. Can a non-human character be relatable?Michael Jamin:Can a non-human character be relatable? Well, they should be relatable. We watch the movie cars, it's about cars, but they're not, not cars. They're people who drawn to look like cars. I mean,Phil Hudson:We talked about data, data from Star Trek, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Everything should be, no one wants to care about a car.Phil Hudson:Wally.Michael Jamin:Wally. Exactly. All those arePhil Hudson:Short circuitMichael Jamin:Smurfs. Yeah, they're people justPhil Hudson:Drunk. Johnny five is alive, man.Michael Jamin:Yeah, so they're not cars or toys. They're people.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Awesome. So it's a craft section. Let's talk questions related to the topic and course Jim Garcia wants to know, how would you approach a true story? Someone they just got the ip, so that sounds like they've optioned it for a CIA badass who did badass things. Would you focus on areas of his life where he isn't such a badass? His complicated backstory?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah, right. To me, it's much more interesting to write about someone's weaknesses than it is to write about their strengths. And so yeah, that's exactly right. What's his problems? What are his weaknesses? That's what I would write about.Phil Hudson:Yeah. What was that movie you told me to review with Bob Odenkirk where he was like, oh,Michael Jamin:What was it called again? I likedPhil Hudson:It. I can see the poster getting punched. Yeah, it'll come to me in a second. But that was an example of someone who just seems like a normal regular paper pusher and then you find out he's got this rich backstory, but it's him struggling to get back there. He's not good at it at first. He's like getting his butt kicked.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I like that movie.Phil Hudson:Yeah. The name will come to me in a second. TJ wants to know when does a scene end or when should you end a scene is probably a better question.Michael Jamin:I teach this in a course in bit greater detail, but the scene ends when the character's attitude is no longer the same as it was at the beginning of the scene. And that's when the scene is over. When the character, so for example, well, I got to think now, I won't put it on the spot. I can't think of a, but it is basically a character will get some piece of information and they go, oh, I got to go apologize to her. Or, oh, that does it. I got to rob a bank. It's like now their attitude has shifted. It's slightly different. It was in the beginning, and this is a mistake that most new writers make, is like the scenes continues long after the character. They're continuing to write, even though the scene ended 10 minutes ago. So when the character's attitude is different, has shifted, you're seen is over.Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's great. Refi wants to know, is story structure pretty much the same worldwide with the exception of cultural differences?Michael Jamin:I believe so. What differences difference does the language make? And to be honest, I am interested in stories from other cultures because look, we all have love. Love doesn't change from culture to culture. This culture, you may have a range marriage and this culture, you don't have a range marriage and this culture, a marriage ceremony might look different than this culture's marriage ceremony, but love is love and so you're just writing about the same thing. And I appreciate the window into your world because you have a different culture, but we're all humans. We all share the same human emotions, and so that's where people get hung up. It's like, no. Yeah, it's the same. We're all the same.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I met this kid here who's from Iran here in Los Angeles, and we were chatting and I had the opportunity in film school and at Sundance to catch several Iranian films by this Iranian filmmaker and a couple of his cohorts, and he was so impressed by that because I was able to talk about the story structure of these films. And what's interesting is how they have to navigate the politics of a government that funds everything, but also censors everything and how you have to use show, don't tell, and speaking indirectly to get across your message that kind of is political and anti-government, but have the government fund it and think you're doing good work for them. The other, but it's story is what connects and carries through. And the other great film everyone should check out from 2013 is called The Lunchbox, and it's this beautiful film I saw at Sundance and it ties in culture so beautifully to how we approach story. I would absolutely check that one out. David wants to know how can you add to the skeleton of a good character if you have the basis for a compelling character story, but you feel you need to add more to make your character real?Michael Jamin:Yeah. One of the things I have in the course is a whole worksheet. It's a chart that you need to GamePhil Hudson:Changer.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It's a chart so that you have to fill out a bunch of questions that you have to ask yourself about this character and filling out this chart will really help you flesh out your character in a way you couldn't even imagine. And then there's other characters in this chart, and then you have to say, okay, how does this characteristic, Matt? How do these characters interact? That's another question. And so all of that, if you're really interested, go sign up for my course@michaeljamin.com/course.Phil Hudson:Yeah. You quickly learn that you're painting all of your characters to be mirrors of each other because you want to talk about that thing, and then it highlights how you can make all of those interactions more beautiful and more interesting, more conflict to just really improve your story. You got that from somebody. Do you want to say who you got that from?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I learned that from Steve Levitan who I worked under. Just shoot me. So much of the knowledge that I teach in this course is just from sitting at the feet of writers who are more experienced than I was.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Do you have your notebook? I don't know if you want to show to peopleMichael Jamin:Every once in a while we take this down,Phil Hudson:So this is something we bring up in the webinars, often even give away a free PDF based on this notebook called the insider's guide to terminology, but that's your notes in your career writing, just writing stuff down from conversations, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah, exactly. I would work with other writers and they'd say something smart and I jot into my notebook, and then when I made the course a couple years ago, I just referred to my notebook. I go, this is what I want to teach.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's awesome. This is Christina in our course, and this isn't really a question, but Kevin, who prepped this for me, left it in says in Michael's course, I learned how to figure out once and for all those act breaks that were a real headache for me before story structure is so well explained. It becomes much easier after. Yeah. She'sMichael Jamin:Had a good lot of success. Christina,Phil Hudson:She doing well. I was about to say she's taken her life mind for all these rich stories, and she's written, I think books and then now plays and those plays are being performed and touring. SoMichael Jamin:NotPhil Hudson:Bad. She credits you for helping her figure out how to break the story, but you didn't tell her what life to live and her experience or how to paint the story. You said this is how you tell your story, and she did that.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Good for her.Phil Hudson:Awesome. We have one question on breaking in. This is from new legend pictures. I've been wondering about writing for a foreign audience. For example, I'd like to write something in the vein of Korean dramas. I know there's probably no way to break it into the US market.Michael Jamin:Writing a Korean drama.Phil Hudson:Yeah, just writing for other things, specifically a Korean drama.Michael Jamin:Well, are they Korean or are they American? IPhil Hudson:Sounds immediate. It's because this is a foreign audience. Sounds to me like this is someone who really enjoys Korean dramas and wants to take a stab at writing one.Michael Jamin:Oh, I see. I don't know anything about KoreanPhil Hudson:Drama. I think you were just saying, is that worth doing to try to break in? Is that a good sample?Michael Jamin:I would assume if that's your culture and you can write something, like I said, you can write a story that it could be, I could have a window into your culture. That's interesting to me to see what that's about, but at the end of the day, you still experience love the way I do. It's the same. Sure. If that's your culture, right, and you understand the Korean culture better than because you're Korean. Yeah. Lean into it.Phil Hudson:Lean into it. What if you're not Korean and you just like ca dramas,Michael Jamin:Then you're in dangerous territory. Someone might say, what do you know you're talking about? Or people might have a problem with you. I don't want to debate whether it's right or wrong, but you make run into trouble with that.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I would think that if you want to just write it to get it out of your system and it helps you improve your craft, great. But be tread lightly. Right. Next. Do most shows have, this is the same person, do most shows have each episode have their own full story arc? Or is it the whole season or the series or both?Michael Jamin:Well, every episode has to have a complete story, and then you may have a longer a story arc. This character is going back to college for the first time, but that one episode has to feel fulfilling. It has to feel like, yeah. Okay. And that there has to be a story in that episode. If it's not a complete story, people are going to be bored by it. And then the next episode, you're taking that journey a little further, but this is a question whether you want to serialize or your project or not. But again, you don't need to worry about any of this. You need to write one complete compelling episode of television. You don't need to worry about seasons, episodes two through 10. Just give me one damn good episode. Give me the pilot. That's all I need.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Ruth wants to know, say your agent is into a spec script, but you want to pursue it, can you try to pitch it yourself? How bound are you to what your agent wants?Michael Jamin:I wonder if they're talking about me or themselves.Phil Hudson:I think what they're saying is like, Hey, I have an agent and I've got the spec script. It's a film and my agent says he's not into it. Can I go pitch it myself or do I have to listen to my agent?Michael Jamin:No, you can do whatever you want. I, but I don't expect your agent to help you with that. If you want to go for it, they can't stop you go for it. I mean, the agent's trying to help you, and if they feel like they're helping you, they're going to give you their best advice. But if you don't want to take it, don't take it.Phil Hudson:Yeah. I was listening to an interview with Dead Mouse, and he said that there was a track that he wasn't really into, and his tour manager was like, dude, this is great. You got to drop it. And he didn't want to do it. And for months and months he didn't. And they kept tour manager kept saying, when are you going to drop it? And he ran out of stuff. He dropped it. It's his biggest hit. Sometimes you don't even know what is good for you, but Vice First is sometimes other people don't know what's good for you, and it's all risks, risk and reward. William, go for it. David Cook is Amadeus. Amadeus is I think something that came up in the webinar.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I love that movie.Phil Hudson:Yeah. My wife's favorite film. I think I told you she wants me to name one of our kids, Wolfgang. And I was like, no. And you're like, I might be on her side.Michael Jamin:Wolfie.Phil Hudson:That's what she wants to call him. She wants to name Wolfgang to call him Wolfie, which I think just whatever is Amadeus a story about an extraordinary person in an ordinary world or about Salie, an ordinary person in the extraordinary world of Amadeus.Michael Jamin:That's so interesting. It really is a story within a story, and you keep popping back out to Salieri in present time. Why did he go mad? Because, so yeah, it's a story within a story. There's really two stories. You're watching Solis descent into Madness because he killed this beautiful creature. Why did he do it? Yeah. So who's the hero of that?Phil Hudson:Well, it's called Amadeus.Michael Jamin:It is called Amadeus. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Right. So this is like Sicario. Did you ever see Sicario?Michael Jamin:I did,Phil Hudson:Yeah. So who is it about? Is it about Emily Blunt or is it about Benicio Del Toro and I think it wasn't until I got about three quarters of the way through, I was like, oh, we started on Emily Blunt, but that is not the protagonist.Michael Jamin:It's really just a framing device. The soli part of it. Who's got 90% of the screen time? Amadeus.Phil Hudson:Yep. Alright. Marla wants to know hat on a hat. New favorite saying, do you want to tell people what that is?Michael Jamin:We often say when you refer to a joke, sometimes you put a punchline on top of the punchline. And so we say it's a hat on a hat, ifPhil Hudson:You like that come to the webinar where we can give out that book based on the free ebook based on Michael's notebook, insider Guide to Writing terminology.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There's a bunch of terms that we give away. If you want to learn what they are, come to these webinars and we give 'em away.Phil Hudson:Yeah, everybody gets that for just coming. So I had an eye hat, new favorite. If you base a character on someone in your life or someone in your life recognizes themselves in your writing, can they sue you?Michael Jamin:I don't know. I don't give legal advice, but I'll say you're protected. If you change their name, I would assume you can change their name, you could change their occupation, you could hide who they are. And if they were to come out, they're essentially calling themselves out. Why would they be dumb enough to do that? But I'm not worried about it, but I don't give legal advice. So yeah,Phil Hudson:I think that the person that will need to worry about that is the studio that buys it, and it becomes so wildly successful. That person has a financial incentive to sue you. I don't think it's necessarily something you need to worry about on a spec.Michael Jamin:I would hope not. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Ruth, w what criteria do you consider when taking a job? Early in your career, you worked for both Steve Levitan and Greg Daniels, but then you didn't work on Modern Family or The Office. WhyMichael Jamin:Fired? Oh, fired. Fired. I wasn't offered jobs on Fired. Fired, offered fired. I wasn't offered jobs on those, but I mean, I also had a job. So when Modern Family came out that season, I remember actually meeting with Steve and my partner and I already had a job on, we were running a show called Glen Martin, so it wasn't even like we were trying to get that job. I don't remember what the office was doing, but I'm sure I also had, I've worked every year, I'm sure I also had a job at the time. So a lot of times, and by the way, I've missed out on opportunities, I've missed out on shows that were really big simply because I already had a job and when the show, it's not like this show was going to be a giant hit. You don't know this. Even a great show could be a flop.Phil Hudson:And Glen Martin, that was the first time show running right for you. And C, itMichael Jamin:Was the first time show running, and I was very happy to be running a show. I was like, oh, good. I've never done it before. So it was exciting and I'm glad I did it, but I would've made a lot more money had I been on Modern Family for sure.Phil Hudson:Awesome. Follow up question. When you get to a higher level of writer, say co-producer, do you still need to submit a script to the showrunner or is hiring based on your interview and past EV work you've done?Michael Jamin:Oh no. You almost always, you have to be read. You need a writing sample, and it has to be a current writing sample, and it has to be good. You're never done writing for free in Hollywood. You're always writing.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Derek Nyberg. What if the audience can't differentiate between fiction and reality and carries those powerful story themes into the voting booth? Does this explain why the worst of all possible characters are now elected officials walking around the Capitol building in Washington? Does this explain society's addiction to conflict?Michael Jamin:I don't think the two have anything to do with each other. Just to be clear, I think you're giving us way too much credit that the characters we create somehow become political figures. IPhil Hudson:Think that's like asking, was Shakespeare's success with Caesar, with Julius Caesar or with King Richard III or any of these other things he'd done, was that successful because he wrote them as story and then that led to other people being crazy? Or is it because he was writing about the reality of these people? Life imitates art imitates life, whereas it'sMichael Jamin:Chicken cat. Yeah, it goes in both directions. But basically you take a show like the one Julie Louis Red come on talking about the political, sorry, beep Veep. Yes. Yeah, sorry. That show would not have been made if there already weren't people in politics acting like jackasses because you wouldn't believe you couldn't sell the show. You'd be like, I don't buy that. Any elected official could be that fricking stupid, but because it was already out there, you see it now, you can sell a show on it. Yeah.Phil Hudson:Yeah. That's great. Alright, and this is a comment, not a question, but I thought this was a good way to end this. Braves wants to know, I'm an aspiring screenwriter from India, and the knowledge you share on your Instagram helped me get my first internship. Always look forward to developing my skillset further. Thank you.Michael Jamin:Oh, good for you. Congratulations.Phil Hudson:And that's someone who's not only in your social media, but the webinars, and that's a reminder to everybody to come to the webinars. They're free. We do them very regularly, and there's always something to learn in those.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's it. This is a short one, but thank you everyone. Thanks for listening once again. This episode's brought to you by a paper orchestra, my debut collection of personal essays available. You can get on Amazon, you can get anywhere you want. Barnes and Nobles ApplePhil Hudson:Sign copies@michaeljamin.com.Michael Jamin:If you want, get it from me directly, I'll sign it for you. And that's it, Michael. Yeah, thank you so much everyone. Thank you. Thank you for your questions.Phil Hudson:Until next time,Michael Jamin:Keep reading,Phil Hudson:Keep reading. Keep readingMichael Jamin:My book. Read the book. Okay, everyone,Wow. I did it again. Another fantastic episode of What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? How do I do it week after week? Well, I don't do it with advertiser supported money. I tell you how I do it. I do it with my book. If you'd like to support the show, if you'd like to support me, go check out my new book, A Paper Orchestra. It asks the question, what if it's the smallest, almost forgotten moments that are the ones that shape us most? Laura Sanoma says, good storytelling also leads us to ourselves, our memories, our beliefs, personal and powerful. I love the Journey. And Max Munic, who was on my show says, as the father of daughters, I found Michael's understanding of parenting and the human condition to be spot on. This book is a fantastic read. Go check it out for yourself. Go to michael jamin.com/book. Thank you all and stay tuned. More. Great stuff coming next week.

I'll tell you I'm talking about. When I first started sharing my professional journey, I focused on people who were interested in screenwriting. But over the years, my audience has expanded to include all sorts of creative types: actors, artists, novelists, playwrights, performers, and more. With that said, I'm rebranding my podcast. I'll still talk about screenwriting, but I'll interview a wider variety of people living their own creative lives. I hope they'll inspire you to do the same.Show NotesFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMichael Jamin:But also it's like when you put energy into something legit energy, not like thinking or dreaming, but when you actually do the work, thingsPhil Hudson:Have a way ofMichael Jamin:Manifesting like, oh, there's opportunities have a way of appearing becausePhil Hudson:You've put work into it.Michael Jamin:Like these variousPhil Hudson:Press opportunitiesMichael Jamin:That I've done and other things that have sprung out because of that. That's just from doing the energyPhil Hudson:Of posting on social mediaMichael Jamin:And just sharing as much knowledge as I can.Phil Hudson:You're listening to, what the Hell is Michael Jamin talkingMichael Jamin:About?Phil Hudson:I'll tell you what I'm talkingMichael Jamin:About. I'm talking about creativity, I'm talking aboutPhil Hudson:Writing, and I'm talking about reinventing yourselfMichael Jamin:Through the arts. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin and I'm new. I'm all new right now because I've done a rebrand on the podcast. It was called, obviously Screenwriters Need to Hear this. And then Phil and I were talking and we kind of wanted to open up the conversations a little bit so it's not just about screenwriting and so it's more about, I was really getting to talking about people doing all sorts of creative things. I just think it's inspiring. We'll still talk about screenwriting of course, but I wanted to open up the conversation to more people who are doing things that hopefully inspire all of us to just live more creative lives. And Phil don't get upset. Phil is still here, still is not going away. He's very much involved in all this, but the title of course of the new show is What the Hell is Michael Jamin talking about? And will be answering that question. What the hell am I talking about? Go ahead.Phil Hudson:I think the focus in our conversations were really about creativity because you're a bit more than just a screener. When we started this, it was with a specific purpose. We should also point out this is episode 1 0 4, which is two years of doing podcast,Michael Jamin:So it wasPhil Hudson:A good time to take a step back. Reassess. Things have shifted a lot in the industry. Things have shifted a lot for you personally. What you've done over the last few years is pretty phenomenal in terms of growing a following, becoming a bit of a celebrity, becoming a bit of an expert in a lot of news, which we'll talk about. So yeah, it's just a shift to I think, speaking a little bit more to who Michael Jamin is beyond just being a writer and a showrunner, but being a true creative.Michael Jamin:And I should mention, so Phil speaks with authority because he runs a digital marketing agency called Rook, SS e o. So this is, he knows what he's talking, he knows the space Well, but without further ado, I guess this episode we were just going to talk a little bit more about how far the changes we've made, what we've seen in the past two years and hopefully maybe what we're moving towards.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I thought it would be fitting, Michael, just to kind of talk about some statistics around what the success of the podcast, the success of your work as doing your own personal marketing. And I want to remind everybody that the whole point of this was so that you could market your book. So you're taking and eating your own advice, and I think it's very important for people to know, if I think of Michael Jainism, what are some of the things, your catchphrases and the things you say? Some of those are don't wait, put it out there. Put yourself out there. Right.Michael Jamin:Stop asking for permission is what I say.Phil Hudson:Stop asking for permission.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Phil Hudson:There are a bunch of those that could be really good slogans for hats, whichMichael Jamin:YouPhil Hudson:ShouldMichael Jamin:Consider. A lot of this really, and I guess maybe it's fitting that just that I am the first interview of what the new brand is because a lot of this is about reinventing yourself. This whole journey that I've been is about reinventing myself. I was a sitcom writer. That's what I was until I started going online and making a podcast and posting every day and now I'm something else.Phil Hudson:Yeah, it's definitely morphed. So let's talk a bit about that. Right. So we're 104 episodes into the podcast. That's big. I think the statistic I saw a week ago is that the average podcast has six episodes, which meansMichael Jamin:Most people It's a lot of work. Yeah,Phil Hudson:It is. It's a lot of money too. I don't think people recognize that you're investing in editors, you'veMichael Jamin:GotPhil Hudson:People doing graphic design. There's a lot of it. There's the hosting of the site. I mean, every time you do a webinar, a site crashes and I have to freak outMichael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Run in and make sure we're back up. And yeah, it's a whole thing. So there's a lot that goes into this, but it's 104 episodes on lots of different topics, all centered around creativity, largely around Hollywood and screenwriting. But I personally, as I've gone through and produced and helped edit some of the episodes, it's very clear to me that you get a lot of joy from having these creative conversations.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's what interests me the most. Yeah, andPhil Hudson:It's not so much about like, Hey, you're a screenwriter. It's like, hey, you are a creative personMichael Jamin:Who'sPhil Hudson:Putting themselves out there and trying to make something happen,Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Your audience speaks to this as well. So in the digital marketing space, when we think about this, we think about an avatar and an avatar or a persona. It's your ideal customer. It's the person you're going after. And anytime you're doing marketing, it's a mistake. Or if it's folly, to not do that, you want to understand who you're targeting. And it was very clear two years ago, well, I'm a writer, I'm a TV writer. Let's talk about what I know, which is screenwriting to people who are screenwriters. And I pointed out you should do that because there's a lot of BSS out there.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:What is your take on that two years into this? What is your take on BSS advice and advice in general? Maybe through the lens of the questions you get asked,Michael Jamin:What is my take on it? I feel like you're prompting me to say something. What are you getting at Fell? I don'tPhil Hudson:Know. I'm not trying to lead the witness. I just want to know what is your take on the marketplace for screenwriters having been immersed on the public, but then you're getting all these questions from people. You did a bunch of live q and as for a year, just talking to people and your following, and there's a series of 10 or 15 questions everybody's asking,Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:It's all pointed towards sell your stuff. You know what those are. So I'm just wondering for you as a showrunner who kind of stepped into the world of what's being taught by the gurus andMichael Jamin:By thePhil Hudson:Experts, what are you seeing in the marketplace for screenwriters?Michael Jamin:One thing I said during the last webinar we did, we do free webinar every three weeks, and I said something that I think a lot of people were astounded by. I said, screenwriting is simple. It's not easy, but it's simple. And I think a lot of people are trying to sell you the complicated version so that you buy more from I'm the only one who can explain it to you and therefore you need me. And I don't know in the writer's room, that's just not how we approach writing simple. I also think there's a lot of bad advice out there, I think. So just be careful. Be careful who you're taking advice from. I don't know, it's a little heartbreaking. Someone posted today, actually, I did a post and someone left a comment saying, everything this guy says me is true because he did coverage in a coverage service. HePhil Hudson:Goes, yeah,Michael Jamin:People use pay me for coverage. I didn't know anything and I'm telling people what to do. This is a gig this guy picked up. It didn't seem like a lot of people I know, not a lot of people, but I've heard stories of people who've done coverage for a temp job for a month or two and then left because they left feeling a little bit gross about themselves. Why are you paying me? I don't know what I'm talking about. And so they left.Phil Hudson:Okay, so this is the world that, so I guess I might've been leading the witness a little bit because my point is, this is the world I understood because prior to meeting you and having the stars align, and we met years ago, and without me knowing who you are, and everybody knows the story by now of how we know each other and became friends, I was very much in that world and I was looking around trying to find that type of feedback and information, and you really shined the light on this for me. That man, there's a lot of people out here pretending like they know what they're talking about.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:I think you've done a valuable service in these first 100 and 304 episodes of peeling back the curtain, explaining how the process works, educating people. So I just wanted to reiterate, there's a lot of value in what you've done, and that doesn't mean that you're not going to continue to provide value to your listeners who are screenwriters. I think you're just shifting into really none of it all, which is be a creative and do creative things because there's value in the act, not because you're trying to sell a pilot.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. I said something else that people kind of resonated with. Maybe it's worth repeating, and I'll probably say again in my webinars, I say do more of them, but I interviewed, I directed Brian Cranston many years ago on a show called Glen Martin. He was a guest star. It was an animated show, and I directed, it was silly. He played a fun role and was then afterwards I thanked him. We paid him probably 800 bucks. He wasn't doing it for the money. And I thanked him that was scale. And he said, oh, no, no, thank you. And I'm like, thank me. Whatcha talking about you're Brian Cranson. At the time he was doing breaking bed, and he said, it's just nice to have a pallet cleanser. As great as Breaking Bad was in probably my favorite show of all time.It was so dark that he was living with these negative emotions, anger, fear, jealousy, rage, all that stuff to be in the character. And when you are in that, your mind doesn't know a difference When you're playing this character 12, 14 hours a day in film and you're acting angry and vengeful and all that, whatever those emotions he had to play, your brain doesn't know the difference that whole day. You've been angry and vengeful, and then when you go home, how do you get it out of you? I mean, how do you just experienced all that all day? And it just really made me think about what it's like to be an actor to actually live in that. So he was thanking me because the script that we did was so light and fun. He was like, oh, it's like a, it was fun. It was fun.Palette, cleanser, which he needed. And then it just got me thinking a lot about just creativity as a whole. And then when people write, when they write their scripts, novels, whatever it is, regardless of whether you sell it or not, you are enjoying that burst of creativity and you're playing out all the characters in your head and your mind doesn't know the difference between you pretending to jump out of a plane and you writing about jumping out of a plane. You're trying to get it all on paper. You're really trying to live it in your heart. And so that I feel Carries with you when you write, regardless of whether you sell it something is a bonus, great, you got money for it. But if you don't sell it, you still get that. You still get that rush, that bonus. And so there's no reason not to write, don't think of it as the pot of gold is in the journey. It's not at the end of the rainbow.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Let's talk about some of the statistics of the podcast, and I love that. I want to circle back on that topic of the journey, the joys in the journey, not the destination, which I'm sure I'm slaughtering that saying just some things, right? So 104 episodes of the podcast, over 200,000 downloads of the podcast, people from I don't know how many continents, but just basing it off of the last webinar we did this last Saturday. I counted probably 13 countries on about four continents, right? That's a trip. Italy, you've got Europe, you've got people in Asia, Australia, south America, you got Central America, you've got America, you'veMichael Jamin:GotPhil Hudson:Canada. I mean, you've got people, it's a global reach at this point, and you're kind of that figurehead to put that out.Michael Jamin:There's so strange.Phil Hudson:Yeah. So hundreds of thousands of downloads on the podcast, which is incredible and that may not seem like a lot, but for the industry and for your niche,Michael Jamin:ThisPhil Hudson:Is really good. These are great numbers for that. We've pulled some stats, and you might know this a little bit better. At one point you were in the top three podcasts on screenwriting, is that right?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I was bouncing around andPhil Hudson:We fluctuated between 5, 6, 7, 10. Anybody who wants to help support go leave a review, a written review on iTunes, that does help a ton. But yeah, so major reach, major opportunity. When you started this, I wanted to ask, do you remember how many Instagram followers you had when we sat down in your garage and I talked about here's what you need to do to be able to grow your following and do this. DoMichael Jamin:You remember how many? I don't remember.Phil Hudson:No, because it wasn't something you're paying attention to. I didn't know. But how many Instagram followers do you have now? It was less, would you say less than a thousand? Probably.Michael Jamin:Probably close to 160,000 now, I think. Yeah,Phil Hudson:Yeah, 160,000.Michael Jamin:HowPhil Hudson:Many days have you missed posting on socialMichael Jamin:Media? Since we started this two yearsPhil Hudson:Ago,Michael Jamin:I promised myself that I was going to post every day. So I post, I would say on average six days a week. So sometimes I take a day off.Phil Hudson:So for anybody looking to grow a following, again, Michael's telling you to do this. He's telling you to bring something to the table and you did this and it's brutal. It's not like a 32nd recording.Michael Jamin:IPhil Hudson:Mean, you communicated to me at one point you're spending 20, 30 minutes on this every single day to get one video out because you're doing multiple takesMichael Jamin:And you'rePhil Hudson:Trying to condense it. You're thinking about it outside of that 30 minutes. You're then doing the technical, and I don't post this for you, you do this, you post it, right? Because you want it to feel authentic. So there's work involved. But again, you're eating your own medicine,Michael Jamin:You'rePhil Hudson:Doing what you tell people to do. You're putting yourself out there in two years down the road, you basically nothing to 160,000 followers onMichael Jamin:Instagram. TikTok,Phil Hudson:Let's hear it.Michael Jamin:Well, TikTok is, I think it's something like 444,000. But that's the thing. It's like I made a promise for myself. It wasn't too ambitious. I didn't say I was going to post five times a day. I was like once a day,Phil Hudson:And I think I was advocating for two to four, which is what the experts would tell you to do. And you said, that's not sustainable for me.Michael Jamin:No way.Phil Hudson:Especially for someone who doesn't want to be in the limelight, which is you very much were like, I don't want to be this person. I'm happy being a writer, but you have this project you want, which is your bookMichael Jamin:You want. I also think it waters down a little bit the message if you're constantly, I'd rather do quality than quantity. But yeah, all of it. I want to say Phil, everything that I, all the advice that I give people about becoming a screenwriter or whatever, becoming whatever it is you want to be a creator is either advice that I have done or I am currently doing.Phil Hudson:So there's no hypocrisy here, which is a really key thing, really key takeaway that people can learn from you beyond the followers. Let's talk about that's led to definitely, and we saw this happening beforehand. You'd post a video about why aren't there cats and TV shows? And Yahoo would pick it up, and then all of the riders on Tacoma FD would just give you crap for it. You popped up on their Yahoo page. But beyond that, and with your status and the work you put in, all of a sudden you become a trustworthy expert in your field because you have a following and you're noticed. It's not that your knowledge are on the subject or your capacity as a writer has changed.Michael Jamin:You'rePhil Hudson:The same capable person and now all of a sudden there's a lot of interest in writing and Hollywood, and you're the guy to go to because you have a following and you're known, right? So this is this secondary effect of I want to get my work out there, so I need followers so that I can have an audience to engage with and potentially prove to people that there's a demand for what I have to put out. And that turned into being covered on Deadline. The Hollywood Reporter, the New York Times variety, and you're in deadline like 17 times, by the way.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Phil Hudson:Right.Michael Jamin:You'rePhil Hudson:In some local newspapers, Newburyport News, you were with the A R PMichael Jamin:CPhil Hudson:Tv. Yeah, the seasoned writers of the world, Portland TV had you on for three segments on one of their shows.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:I think that started a little bit before Good Day Sacramento, multiple times in Yahoo N, our c nl, which is New Zealand, is that right? Nls New Zealand, I think. Yeah. Or the Netherlands. Yeah, Scripps News, the Guardian Newsweek, the Washington Posts News Junkie, right. Newsweek a couple times. And this last weekend you were on C N N.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's nuts. They just reach out to me, I'm like, sure, I'll do it. Would not have predicted any of this was going to happen two years ago. No.Phil Hudson:So you're not doing this for the fame, you're not doing any of this because you feel like you're going to get something out of it from your writing career. You're doing it because your publisher says, Hey, we don't care how many emails you have on your wife's business list or anything like that, or how many people are interested in your writing?Michael Jamin:WhichPhil Hudson:By the way, prior to even four years ago, 10,000 emails was enough to get a book deal. And now, I mean, I've seen that number of times from people now, it's like, yeah, you need followers putting you on the spot here. So I apologize, but I recall you telling me that you had specific feedback from some of these agents, like, man, Michael Jamin can write, I want to be his friend. Do you remember some of that? Do you want to talk a little bit about what some of those rejection letters were? Oh,Michael Jamin:Yeah. I don't know if I have in front of me, but basically it was, oh, actually I do. ThisPhil Hudson:Is not planned, by the way. Michael didn't know I was going to bring any of this up. The whole premise here is I was going to interview Michael and talk about this stuff.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I got letters from when I was first putting my book out there from publishers. Oh, we love this book. The guy doesn't have a following. They wrote to my agent, do you have anybody who writes like this? Who does have a following? I mean, it was that crazy. They said, platform drives acquisition. I said, what does that mean? You need to have a following. I said, well, what about the strength of the writing? Everyone loved the writing. What about the strength of the writing? Oh, no, no, no. It's about what can we sell? I was like, damn. And that really was a stab in the heart,Phil Hudson:And I think for the average creative branching out with just writers, but the average creative one, rejection, litter, and it's like, well, I guess that's not in it. I guess mom was right. I guess dad was right. I guess Billy's dad was, right. It's hard to be a writer. I should give up. And you hear about these people who submit over and over and over again until they finally break through.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:You took that and said, I don't want to do this thing. I don't want to be a public figure, but I have this creative work that I know people need to read. And it's a personal work that you did on your own. No one paid you to do it. You wrote forMichael Jamin:Free.Phil Hudson:And then IMichael Jamin:Remember, which turn, go ahead. Go ahead.Phil Hudson:I was going to say, then I remember I get a text from you and you're like, Phil, any chance you can come over, I want to talk to you about some marketing stuff. I come over, come to your garage. I break your chair. Let's see thatMichael Jamin:It had already broken. It's already broken, but okay,Phil Hudson:Had to replace a chair. And he asked me, what do I need to do? And I just laid out everything I knew, and then we started putting the wheels into motion. That was roughly 25 months ago,Michael Jamin:CouplePhil Hudson:Months ago.Michael Jamin:And it's one of those things like, I didn't want to do it so tough. How badly do you want it? How badly do you want it? And there can be a downside to having whatever you want to call this level of fame. It's internet famous, not famous, but you are putting yourself out there for haters, for trolls, for wackos, all sorts of weirdos. I mean, you wouldn't believe how, I mean, do I have to tell you? There are people on the internet are crazy. So there was that, but I was like, well, this is what it takes now. So it actually made me matter. When the publishers told me this, I was furious. How dare you tell me what I can't do? You don't get to tell me what I can't do. Only I get to do that. And so that just lit a fire under my ass. And then when IPhil Hudson:Read this book,Michael Jamin:Oh my God, it actually changed me. It's kind of a weird,Phil Hudson:I don't really want to plug the bookMichael Jamin:Very, you can tellPhil Hudson:Me I'mMichael Jamin:InterestedPhil Hudson:In this, but you can tell me. I'llMichael Jamin:Tell you. It was a very new agey book. And so a lot of the advice was, some of the advice I thought was really good, and some of it was like, I don't know. I think you, you're going out on a limb with this one. But it was one of those things, you take what you want and you leave the rest. And what convinced me was this one passage where he said, you've already gotten what you wanted. It just hasn't happened yet. And I was like, that's it. That's it. I already have it. It just hasn't happened yet. And then I was like, alright, what do I need to do to make it happen?Phil Hudson:That's it. Yeah. You remember you reading me that exact quote several times throughout this whole process? Yeah. IMichael Jamin:Love that quote. I always tell people on my podcast, whatever here, or I say it on the webinar, I was like, this is what you need to do. If you're willing to do it, then you need a skill. We don't know your level of skill and then you need a little bit of luck, of course. But here's what you can do to increase your odds. Are you willing to do it? And most people aren't so fine.Phil Hudson:Well, that's my point about the podcast, right? The average podcast is six episodes,Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:It's because the consistency, the lack of immediate gratification, the, oh, I only got three people to listen to my sixth episode and I put a thousand dollars to get four episodesMichael Jamin:Made, orPhil Hudson:Whatever it is, that's enough to turn people off. But this is kind of your whole point is, okay, move on. And there's nothing wrong with learning that you're not fit for something. There's something wrong with, there's nothing wrong with saying, Hey, I understand that something I want to do. Maybe doing it the Hollywood way is not the right way for me.Michael Jamin:SoPhil Hudson:Instead, I'm going to go back to just doing it on my own and I'm going to make short films and I'm going to support my local film community. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with recognizing, Hey, I've got family obligations, so I'm not going to be able to move to New York and try to get my art in a gallery. So I'll just paint on the weekends and I'll just take that hour to myself every day to just put in the work on my craft. And you never know what can come from that. But the point is, it's about sticking with what it is. And that's, I think your message that I've heard. I don't know that I want to say that it's evolved. I don't know it's ever evolved. I think it's always been your message, which is if you want to make it happen, you got to make it happen. But the act of doing is enough, right?Michael Jamin:As youPhil Hudson:Said, the goal, the pot of gold, that the rainbow is not the pot of gold.Michael Jamin:It's thePhil Hudson:Experiences along the way, finding the pot of gold that are the pot of gold.Michael Jamin:But also, it's like when you put energy into something legit energy, not like thinking or dreaming, but when you actually do the work, things have a way of manifesting like, oh, this opportunities have a way of appearing because you've put work into it. Like these various press opportunities that I've done and other things that have sprung out because of that. It's like that's just from doing the energy of posting on social media and just sharing as much knowledge as I canPhil Hudson:With zero expectation of getting back. You're planting seeds that hopefully will produce fruit when your book is available and people can buy it on Audible and buy a paperback or a hardcover. And at this point too, so still, you've made the decision not to go with a traditional publisher, even though at this point you have hundreds of thousands of followers.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my content, and I know you do because you're listening to me, I will email it to you for free. Just join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos of the week. These are for writers, actors, creative types, people like you can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you, and the price is free. You got no excuse to join. Go to michaeljamin.com and now back to what the hell is Michael Jamin talking about?Phil Hudson:When you'd ask people, how many followers do I need? They couldn't tell you, tell you. They just knew you needed followers, but they didn't know what the number was.Michael Jamin:And then I got resentful, okay, now that I have these followers, why am I cutting you in? Tell me exactly why I'm cutting you in. What exactly do you do? Nothing. They get me in Barnes and Noble, that's it. But people don't buy books at Barnes and Noble. They buy it online. Why am I cutting you in? It made me mad. It made me legit in the beginning. I was like, I need you. And I was like, I don't need you. What do I need you for?Phil Hudson:How freeing is that feeling?Michael Jamin:It's wonderful. I just got my copy back from I, my copy editor, read the whole thing and whatever, looking for typos and stuff like that. And he loved it. This is a professional. He's like, how do I share? I want to give this to my friends. I was like, oh, thank you. But one of it's like, why am I cutting? It's just like this is the year, it's 2023. It's like, you don't need to ask for permission from these people. The publishing is, the side of the business is very similar to Hollywood in the sense that what do we need these people for? You don't need Hollywood if you want to do, you don't. You just don't. You can do it yourself.Phil Hudson:On that note, I went to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu today, and it was a smaller class, middle of the day. There were literally two other people besides me. They're both instructors. It was paying for a private, which was awesome. And in some downtime, I was talking to one of the guys, he's like, yeah, I quit doing Juujitsu for five years. And I was like, oh, why'd you stop? And he's like, well, a couple of years ago, I lost everything I was doing, worked in, I'm an actor and I worked in the industry. And then that started a conversation, and then he started telling me about all the stuff he's doing now. And he's like, we just decided to do it ourselves. We're making short films. We're putting it out there. We're winning tons of awards on this festival circuits. And he's been in Netflix shows, he's been in things. He has an I M D V page, so he's not just some guy. He has talent and skill, and he's even going out and put it in. And I was like, dude, good for you.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But when you look at the people who break, the people who are break in today, they're all doing what I'm doing. They're people, for the most part, they're not begging for work. They're making work for themselves, and they're making a name for themselves. And so they're building equity in their own name as opposed to knocking on doors and begging.Phil Hudson:Yeah, I, we've touched on this in a past podcast, but I've heard an agent refer to it as Plus writer plus. What is the plus you're bringing to the table? So maybe it's a following, maybe it's ip. Maybe you wrote a book that's a Amazon bestseller. Maybe it's you worked at the Onion and you're coming in with some clout because you had that experience, right? Maybe you were brought on the Harvard Lampoon, whatever it is, there's a plus and a following is a plus, but that's the value add. It's not enough. And you've told me this before, and I've quoted it often, and I think about it when I write, and this was, man, this was like 7, 6, 7 years ago.Michael Jamin:YouPhil Hudson:Read something I wrote in film school, and it was a speck of a Mr. Robot. And you said, Phil, it's obvious you're a competent writer, and this is really good. But that's the problem. It's not great. And so it's not enough to be good. You have to be great, but you also need something else. And you have to be willing to put that out there and get that work done. To me, I've been very hesitant to grow following because of the public nature of that and some of those things. And you tell me some of the things you have to deal with in your dms and people saying things, anti-Semitic things, all kinds. It's crazy, horrible things.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:You still stick it out and you do it. But yeah, the plus for me might be my skillset and technology. It might be my ability to run social media pro campaigns to the point where searchlights and this formerly Fox Searchlight, but searchlights people when they meet me are like, man, I need to fill in every project we have. And that's just the hustle and the grind. And you all have that. You listening to this have,Michael Jamin:That's exactly right. And Phil, this is what I was going to say as well, is everyone listening to this? Take inventory of what you have. For you, Phil, it's your vast knowledge of digital marketing, but for other people, they have other skills. So take advantage of what you have and then incorporate that towards building your brand or whoever youPhil Hudson:Are. Yeah, we might have talked, go ahead.Michael Jamin:Well, if you're a truck driver and you're like, what do I got? I drive a long distance truck, dude, you got a lot. Because you have, I dunno, whatever, 10 hours on the road where you're with nothing but your thoughts, turn off the radio. Not a lot of jobs like that where you can actually think and do your job at the same time. Think about something else. And so, yeah, you could write your screenplay, take notes into a recorder, and then when you stop the car later or the truck later, type it up a little bit and make notes. But that's a huge asset you have, which is you have time. You actually have time where you can think and concentrate on something while you do your job. That's a hugePhil Hudson:Asset. It's a blue sky time. Blue sky time is hard. It's the space and the stillness that is hard to generate in a chaotic life with family and obligations and work. So if you can find it, and reiterating one of the most powerful notes you've given me, which is, do you listen to audio books or podcasts in the car? And I said, yeah. And you said, don't,Michael Jamin:Don't, don't listen to me either. I turned it off your story. ThinkPhil Hudson:About your, yeah, write yourMichael Jamin:Story. WhatPhil Hudson:Is the problem? I'm trying to solve a huge breakthrough for me in my ability to spend time. I was so busy packing my day with so many obligations,Michael Jamin:But then I wasPhil Hudson:Spending hours in LA traffic doing runs for the show,Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:It's like, oh, here's the space.Michael Jamin:So it'sPhil Hudson:A great note, but everyone has that note. And going back to something you said earlier, luck is not, you talked about everyone needs a little bit of luck, but that definition, and I think I shared this in episode three, luck is where opportunity meets preparation.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah'sPhil Hudson:The preparation. It's the time spent. It's the other adage, when's the best time to grow a tree 20 years ago,Michael Jamin:When'sPhil Hudson:The second best time? Right now,Michael Jamin:YouPhil Hudson:Don't have a tree, so get out and build a tree. Grow your tree, right?Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:So yeah, man, kudos to you for putting in the work and the effort. And I'm close enough as your friend, I've been able to see this and see your growth and your push to be able to do this. And I'll also say that even as someone that I considered to be competent, functional adults who's very successful, I've noticed your resilience increased quite a bit overMichael Jamin:My resilience.Phil Hudson:And that's not saying that you were some pushover or anything. I'm not suggesting that in the slightest, but I've just noticed that your ability to just take the bumps and the bruises of all of the BSS you're dealing with, it's just made you, I think, a little more focused and clear on what you want out of it. And that's why you have this reaction, this is my interpretation to me, why you're having this reaction to the publishers now. It's like, why am I giving you any of this? You didn't fight the fight. I fought the fight. I've been here. I've been in here day in and day out, so screw you. And that's a level of resiliency and confidence. I think that I'm not saying you didn't have that, justMichael Jamin:It took a lot for me to get there. It changes things. It took a lot for me to get there, but it was like maybe on the second book, maybe I'll do with them or not, I don't know. But I also know they haven't earned my book. And I've also heard too many stories from friends of mine who have had books traditionally published where the marketing department drops the ball and they promise one thing and then they're awol, and then that's it. Because at that point, you don't have the margin to do any more marketing on your own, so it's dead. And so it was never about the money for me, but I became a little angry as I was building this up. I was like, well, why am I cutting you in? It doesn't make sense to me. What do you bring to the table? Nothing other than Barnes and Noble, which I don't really care about. It's like, okay, sure. If it was 1982, I might worry about that. Yeah.Phil Hudson:This is, I think clicking for me. You're familiar with David Goggins, the former Navy Seal?Michael Jamin:I don't think so.Phil Hudson:He wrote a book called You Can't Hurt Me.Michael Jamin:And hePhil Hudson:Talks about how he was just abused as a kid by his father.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Then what that taught him to do was to be able to just separate his pain. And it created a lot of mental toughness to the point that he was in the us. He was in the Air Force, tried out for Air Force Special Operations. He became a Navy Seal. He went through three hell weeks because he kept getting rolled back for injuries. He had a point where he had fractured legs and he would duct tape them so that they weren't hurt when he was doing runs. I mean, he ran a hundred miler in one day with no preparation to the point that his kidneys were failing. And he just does ultra marathons nonstop. He's just kind of this figure. He's become a bit of a meme with the same younger people, but I've known about him for a few years, and he talks about his book and he's like, I got offered $300,000 from a publisher from my book,Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:I just thought, you haven't been through what I've been through. It is basically what you're saying. It's like, you haven't earned this the way I have. Is my life worth $300,000? And he said, no. So he took all of his savings, which was about 300,000, and he self-published his own book, New York Times bestseller. Did the hardbacks, did the whole thing.Michael Jamin:Why didn't it take him 300,000 to make a book? It shouldn't have taken fraction of that.Phil Hudson:He did all of the publishing himself. So he didn't publish through a self-publisher like Amazon. He didn't even want to partner with Amazon, so he became his own publisher.Michael Jamin:SoPhil Hudson:He literally printed up hundreds of thousands of copies, and then he leveraged all of his relationships with the Rogans and all these people with these platforms because of the life and the experience that he had, and multiple time bestsellers, millions of copies, sold books,Michael Jamin:TwoPhil Hudson:Books, and he's a millionaire because of that effort. So it's that same resilience mindset I think that I'm hearing from you. And that's probably why I made that connectionMichael Jamin:Just like, screw people. I'll do it myself. I don't need you. That's how I feel. Whatever, I'll do it myself. Yeah.Phil Hudson:That's awesome. Before we talk about the new podcast, I just wanted to see, are there any takeaways for you over the last year? Are there anything that really stood out moments or conversations we've had with you, with other people, us on the podcast or with other students in your course?Michael Jamin:If you listen to some of those other episodes where I'm interviewing people, you'll hear various versions of the same story that I tell their own, which is kind of like, screw it. I'll just do it my own. It is just people. The reason why people are, I interview, I guess, successful people, and the reason why they're successful is because they haven't quit yet. That's it. They just didn't get around to quitting. And so I think that's what it is. Until you quit, you're just a success. That hasn't happened yet. It just hasn't happened yet,Phil Hudson:Which is why you don't quit.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil Hudson:Anything else stand out to you?Michael Jamin:I don't know. Can you think of something?Phil Hudson:The one lingering thought that I have is I think that people, you set a really good example for people on your social media about how to handle naysayersMichael Jamin:BecausePhil Hudson:You get a lot of negativity, and you talked about this, you could go after them. You're a professional comedyMichael Jamin:Writer. Yeah.Phil Hudson:They don't stand a chance. And I have witnessed just the witty quickness, the decimation of a soul in a writer's room, all in love,Michael Jamin:ButPhil Hudson:The capability of a professional comedy writer to just tear someone down. And it's almost like with great power comes great responsibility. ThatMichael Jamin:ClichePhil Hudson:From Spider-Man, it's like you opt to take the high road, which is,Michael Jamin:And I'm always torn by that. Sometimes I'm like, I can easily take you down. And sometimes I do. If it's warranted, if they come out with me a certain amount of energy, then I can match the energy. But I'm torn. I also feel like, well, it's not enough that I, on one hand, I tell people I'm a comedy writer, but unless I show it every once in a while, people are, how are they going to believe me?Phil Hudson:And soMichael Jamin:It's a line that I dance. I dance, it is like I don't want to be mean, but I also,Phil Hudson:It's not negative energy. It's not done with maliciousness. It's done playfully. But I think it just, you stand up for yourself when it's appropriate.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Again, that speaks to some of that resiliency that again, you could decimate 'em,Michael Jamin:You retrain yourself. I'm totally pulling punches, believe me when I'm pulling, because sometimes I've got a bunch of clips I haven't posted yet. I write them. I'll spend a half hour on 'em, and then I'll sit on it. I don't feel, and then I look at the next day, I go, oh, I can't put that on. It's funny, but it's just too mean. That'sPhil Hudson:The adage of when you're at work and you want to send that email, don't sendMichael Jamin:It.Phil Hudson:Write it out. Don'tMichael Jamin:Send it. GetPhil Hudson:It out of your system. Move on.Michael Jamin:Right. I took a guy apart the other day, I just haven't shared it, so screw it. That guy,Phil Hudson:You don't even share those with me.Michael Jamin:Yeah. But also I also do, and I made a post about this. It was like, how do I want to show up every day? How do I want to be seen? And I don't want be the mean guy. I don't want to be a bully. So I'm allowed to think my negative thoughts. I don't always have to share them.Phil Hudson:Yeah, yeah. No, and that's a valuable lesson for people in a world where, as I've often said, you remove the opportunity to get punched in the face for anything you say or do, and all of a sudden people start speaking up a little bit more than they probably should. And I'm not advocating for violence,Michael Jamin:ButPhil Hudson:Even a verbal punch to the face can often be enough. AndMichael Jamin:It'sPhil Hudson:Pretty easy in our society to just sit behind your keyboardMichael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Zero consequences for what you say and do. I call this out? I call this out in our webinars while you're talking, Cynthia, your wife is doing a great job of just getting questions, and I'm just kind of checking the chat to see what people are talking about. And man, there's some trolls rolling into your webinar too.Michael Jamin:Thank you. I never see them. Do you block 'em? What do you do?Phil Hudson:No, no. People take care. They take care of it. And we can talk about another experience we had where someone went after me on a podcast too, nepotism, do you remember that? Called me out for nepotismMichael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:All that.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Yeah, your listeners had my back and they went after 'em. And it is just a very stark difference between the community you've cultivated of people who are just respectful, sincere creatives looking to break in and chase their dreams and all the people who say they want to do it and are not putting in theMichael Jamin:Work and the nepotism on your part, to be clear, I suppose that was when you were in and out of foster care as a child. Is that when you experienced all the nepotism?Phil Hudson:Yeah, it might've been that. It might've been when I was in the group homes. It could have been when I lived in my aunt and uncle's house and I couldn't do sports because I had to workMichael Jamin:EffectivelyPhil Hudson:Full-time in high school. Could have been any of those times. Could have beenMichael Jamin:Of those times. Yeah.Phil Hudson:But your point to that was you knew one person tangentially through some girl when you moved here, there wasn't even an nepotism for you. And I knew you, and yeah, I've been blessed to have that opportunity, but we've seen enough people come and go, you have to earn it. Right?Michael Jamin:It's so funny when I tell that story. When I moved to Hollywood, I knew no one in Hollywood, but a girl I was friendly with in high school, she was a year younger than me. I found out that her brother was living in Hollywood and was trying to do what I did, which is bright sitcom writer. And so I called himPhil Hudson:Up, and thenMichael Jamin:We wound up becoming roommates. But then when I tell that story, people go, oh, so you did know someone. It was like, I knew some guy.Phil Hudson:He wasMichael Jamin:Just as unsuccessfulPhil Hudson:AsMichael Jamin:Me, and wePhil Hudson:BecameMichael Jamin:Roommates. He was just a couple years older than me. So I guess that's how I knew someone.Phil Hudson:But that highlights this thing. I was going to say, and it's just a quote that stuck with me for years. I think it comes from Jim Rowan, which is there's two ways to have the tallest building. One is to build the tallest building,Michael Jamin:WhichPhil Hudson:You have done the other ways to tear everyone else's building down.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:So if you're afraid to pursue your craft, sometimes tearing everyone else down is a bit easier than facing the empty page or the blank canvas. It'sMichael Jamin:A lot easier. It's a lot easier.Phil Hudson:And the high road, whichMichael Jamin:You'vePhil Hudson:Been an example forMichael Jamin:AnPhil Hudson:Exemplar, is just put your head down, do the work, provide value,Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Then the benefits will come eventually.Michael Jamin:And I really hope this episode doesn't seem like we're just patting me on the back. I hope it serves be to get you guys to do what I'm doing in your own way for whatever you want to do.Phil Hudson:And Michael saying that, because Michael didn't know what I was going to talk about or bring up here, this is me bringing this up because these are the things that I've observed as your friend, as a co-host on the podcast, but also just as someone who's just trying to do the same thing that everybody who listens to your podcast is tryingMichael Jamin:To do,Phil Hudson:Which is break in and chase their dreams.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I'm exactly like you guys. Only, I'm doing it for writing. That's all for publishing,Phil Hudson:Which speaks to the transition to the podcast, which is the title of the podcast. What the hell is Michael? WhatMichael Jamin:The hell is Michael Jamin talking about?Phil Hudson:Yeah. What the hell is Michael Jamin talking about? At this point, you can see the cover has changed, so it's going to be the same feed. You don't need to go resubscribe. None of the old episodes are rebranding. They'll still be live and available the way they were. But it's just a shift into talking about creative things. And I think you got some cool stuff to kind of display. I guess people might've already heard the intro.Michael Jamin:Oh, we could do that. WePhil Hudson:Put on this episode. But you want to talk more about that, the podcast and impetus for the change and why we were here?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well, there was that. The new music is by my friend Anthony Rizzo, who did all the music. He was the composer on Marin. It wasn't my friend. Then. I just met him on Marin. And then he also did the music for my book, a paper orchestra, which would be dropping hopefully this winter and keep pushing itPhil Hudson:Back. Yeah, we haven't talked about that. You've put in a ton of energy and effort into recording the audio book and making it your live events, which I wanted to point out part of this transition, and you've always talked about how when you're in a writer's room, you end up acting out the parts, like when you're doing Hank on King of the Hill, you do Hank's voice and you kind of mimic him. You're doing Bobby, you do it. So you've always been a performer, but I don't know if you've been a performer in the sense that you are with a paper orchestra whereMichael Jamin:It'sPhil Hudson:A stage show and you're there and you're being vulnerable and emotional, and you're making it a thing, and you're practicing and you're working with talented coaches like your wife, Cynthia, who is a very talentedMichael Jamin:Actress,Phil Hudson:And Jill Sch, who is a legendary actress, and you're investing in all this coaching to put on a presentation or performance for people. And I have not heard audio book, but what I understand is it's going to be very similar experience to come into a live show.Michael Jamin:I think so. And it'll be a little more intimate than a live show in your ear because it's an audio book. I'm much closer to your brain, and I want to talk to morePhil Hudson:CreatorsMichael Jamin:Like this. But what I'm personally inspired by right now, and that maybe it'll change in five years, but I'm inspired by people who tell and perform their own stories. To me, there's something, so you're an actor. You have to be a writer and a performer at the same time, as opposed to doing something like creating something. That's fine. But when you're telling your own story, it's like, man, you're really putting yourself out there. And I think when I see people do it, I'm like, all right, that's interesting. Maybe I'll change in five years. So I mean, standups do that, but they don't do it. They're going for the laugh usually. They're not usually going deeper than that, which is fine that when you go into a comedy club, that's what you expect. So that's kind of what I've been exploring and being motivated by.Phil Hudson:That's another Michael Jainism that stood out to me. I wrote it down when you were talking earlier, go there. You have to be willing to go there. And we talked about people who are not willing to go there. And we've heard people, other writers say, I'm not willing to go there. And you've called it out privately to me, did you hear that person? Did you hear what they said? And you have to be willing to go there. For a long time, I wasn't. And through your help, I've been able to do that. But yeah, you're talking to people who go there.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's the job. If you don't want the job, find another job. It'sPhil Hudson:Emotional vulnerabilityMichael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:Being willing to put yourself out there and not just on a social media perspective, but truly emotionally vulnerable in your stories and what you've called mining your life for stories and putting that out there.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. To me, that's the exciting stuff. And I didn't invent this, so it's just when I see others do it, I'm like, wow, why I should be doing that too.Phil Hudson:So obviously I'm not necessarily a co-host of this anymore. I'm still helping produce the thing. We're still making sure that that'sMichael Jamin:How hear a lot the technicalPhil Hudson:Side. I'll still be popping in on podcast episode.Michael Jamin:We'll still be talking about screenwriting, I'm sure.Phil Hudson:And I had this cool experience, and I don't think we've talked about this when I was on touring with the broken lizard guys doing their social media, just sitting there talking to them and seeing this rabid fan base of people who just love them from this thing that they created. When they did it, they put themselves out there.Michael Jamin:AndPhil Hudson:It really lit that our tour spirit I had back in 2000 8 0 9, when I was really dedicating myself to screenwriting. And I have actually been working on a feature that I would like to star in and direct and do that whole thing on the indie level. Just now you talking, just an exercise. What aboutMichael Jamin:As a short first, why not doing it as a shortPhil Hudson:Could definitely do that. Yeah. Why?Michael Jamin:ToPhil Hudson:Me, there's a feature in there for sure that I want to write and just get out of me, but definitely worth doing a short, yeah,Michael Jamin:Go watch as we talk about this. Go watch on Vimeo, I think Thunder Road, that scene we talk about, go watch the church, the Churching. That was a feature, but that scene stands on its own. If you just saw that scene, you would've thought, oh, it's a short, I thought it was a short, I thought it was a great short, I didn't realize it was part of a bigger, so do something like that. And then when people see that and they're blown away, you'll say, oh, well, there's more to come. Just I need you to donate $5,000. And then they pay for the rest.Phil Hudson:Yeah. Yeah. That's great advice. Great advice. So yeah. So anyway, this beautiful shift in the tide of creativity and your shift, and that rubs off. What can we expect from the podcast in terms of guests you're interviewing? What does that look like for you?Michael Jamin:I reach out, I got to continue to do more. I'm doing another one tomorrow. I'll be reaching out. These guys really inspired me. So there's a movie that I saw on Netflix many years ago, I dunno, maybe five years ago from these guys called The Minimalists. So I reached out to one of them. He's going to be on the Tomorrow, and they're fascinating. It is.Phil Hudson:Joshua Fields Millburn, andMichael Jamin:He's the one coming on, and he's gracious enough to come on, and I'm sure he's going to think we're going to talk about the message. And the message is very important. The message is how you can live, how you can have more in your life with less how you don't need to buy this, how you'll be happier if you get rid of that, and great message. But he's in for a surprise because we'll talk about that. But I really want to talk about how he created himself, how he, okay, then how did you sell a show on Netflix? Okay, now what is it like to be this person? Because he wasn't, he was just some guy who's middle management before he did this, and now he's the guy who has this message. Even though the message has already been said before by other people, he still put a different spin on it to me. And I find that inspiring, that somebody who invented himself, what does that feel like? What are the insecurities that come with that? What is this new fame ish thing that he has? How does that feel? How does he continue to push himself? I don't know. I'm looking forward to the interview. I'm curious to hear, and I bet you he hasn't spoken about that.Phil Hudson:That's awesome.Michael Jamin:I did an interview, I dunno if it, no, it hasn't aired yet. The guy I follow, a prop master that I follow on TikTok named Scott and Scott Reeder, and he's great.Phil Hudson:Great. I follow him too.Michael Jamin:He's great. He just talks about all the props and how he makes these props, and we spoke a little bit about that, but we were more talking about how he invented himself now. And halfway through the interview, he says to me, this is the best interview anyone's ever done, because I didn't really care about the boring stuff. I want to know how he invented himself. What all of us, I think are trying to do right now. That's part of Before we Die, we, that's, who else can we be before we die?Phil Hudson:Yeah, that's profound, man. I'm excited. I've loved listening to the interviews you've already done on Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm looking forward to those.Michael Jamin:It'sPhil Hudson:Good stuff, man. I'm just really pumped for this new stage. And again, I do think it just speaks a little bit more to who you've become because not that you've outgrown yourself as a writer, it's just you've evolved a bit as a person into being a bit more than that. And I hesitate to even say that too, because I know this is who you are. This is who you have been.Michael Jamin:But this is what writers too, I think it's like, all right, what else can we explore here? That's part of the fun. That's the fun part being, being a writer is that you get car, right? You get carte blanche to try new things because maybe I can write about this worst case scenario. I can make a story from it.Phil Hudson:I was about to say, that's advice you've given me multiple times, which is it's a write-off. You can go take aMichael Jamin:Basket weaving class,Phil Hudson:Right? Go take aMichael Jamin:Dance class. Why?Phil Hudson:It's an experience. Go take an acting class. And I remember you did a workshop in Acting for Life and it was a comedy workshop and you were kind enough to invite me to attend that. And I was already studying with Cynthia and Jill at the time there. And yeah, I remember you just putting out that same thing. It's great. You're studying acting, it's going to make you a better writer.Michael Jamin:And you'vePhil Hudson:Given that advice on the podcast too. So it's really fascinating to me. And I'm just kind of realizing this in this moment, man, I thought I was getting all this great free advice that was particular to Phil Hudson and now you're justMichael Jamin:Giving it toPhil Hudson:Everybody, man.Michael Jamin:Everyone. I hope so. I'd like to try to do, we'll see if I can make that happen where I go to, that's something I'm going to try to make happen where I can tour to different cities, put on a show, and then the next day maybe a writing seminar afterwards in that city so I can to help offset some of my costs. And then we could just talk about writing that day. We have a little writing workshop or something, so maybe I'll try to do that.Phil Hudson:God, that's awesome. It's the first I've heard of that. That sounds like a great,Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's just so many things that have to happen before that. I got so much on my plate right now. I can't even think about that. But we were talking about that. Wouldn't that be interesting?Phil Hudson:It's a great idea. Well, I imagine Cynthia will be with you.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah,Phil Hudson:Yeah. And that's awesome. Now you're getting someone who's been on Seinfeld and the friends and just allMichael Jamin:ThesePhil Hudson:Great, I mean very talented, very, and I will say not only talented, but very perceptive,Michael Jamin:Right? Oh yeah.Phil Hudson:And I think I've shared this on here too, but there was this moment where I just couldn't get there. I just couldn't get there. And Jill's just saying, what are you feeling? And IMichael Jamin:Was like, I don't know.Phil Hudson:And she turns to the class and she's like, what is everyone? What's he feeling? Everyone's like, he's mad. And I didn't even realize I was mad. And then the next class, I'm struggling in this scene. And then Jill's like, what are you struggling with? What's going on? I was like, I don't know. And then Cynthia's like, is it the intimacy? Is he having trouble with the intimacy of the scene? And I was like, holy shit. Yeah. I think that's what it is. I am not willing to go here. And I had to work through all that stuff. So she's just so perceptive and so kind. You can't even be not mad. She's calling you out because it's done with so much love and compassion. It's a beautiful thing.Michael Jamin:We've had these moments, by the way, when she directs me from my audio book where the outtakes are not pretty, the outtakes are me yelling.Phil Hudson:ButMichael Jamin:It's funny, one of thePhil Hudson:Stories in my bookMichael Jamin:Is called The House on Witherspoon Street where I'm a kid in college. They're all true stories. And it builds to me giving an on-air interview to this woman who's this eccentric woman who had a talk show. She was lovely, but she's larger than life and it's in the book. And then my editor said yesterday, he goes,Phil Hudson:Do youMichael Jamin:Happen to have that interview? And I was like, well, actually, I think I do. And I found the cassette from 30 years ago. And so we'll put it in the bonus section of the book where now you can hear me, you can hear me as a 19 year old or whatever it was. Has that scene unfolded? That's likePhil Hudson:Steve LE's break dancingMichael Jamin:Commercial, but it's stranger than that because you'll know now what I was thinking in my headPhil Hudson:While That's awesome.Michael Jamin:While it was going on. That's aPhil Hudson:Great point.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's a fun little thing.Phil Hudson:It's cool stuff, man. I love it. I'm pumped. It's a good shift for you. I think it's a good shift for your audience. I think it opens it up a little bit. Hope it's a little bit more accessible to your audience. Your audience is far more than just writers. It'sMichael Jamin:Great. I don't want to just, when it called screenwriters, you hear this. Well, does that mean I don't want to be a screenwriter? Well, okay, but do you want to do anything creative? Yeah, sure I do. I want to write a poem. Okay, good. Now listen, you can, thePhil Hudson:Other thing is how does this apply to novel writing? How does this apply to playwriting? And we have a testimonial video from a guy who does financial writing, and he took your course and he's like, it made my financial writing better.Michael Jamin:He'sPhil Hudson:Able to tell a better story aboutMichael Jamin:Finances in a finance journal. And stories are what gets people hooked. Whatever you want to sell, sell it with a story. People are interested in hearing a story veryPhil Hudson:Often. That's you,Michael Jamin:Right?Phil Hudson:It's you in the room, it's you idea, it's yourMichael Jamin:Acting,Phil Hudson:It's yourMichael Jamin:Art.Phil Hudson:All of that is story.Michael Jamin:By the way, I hope to do some more public speaking. So if anyone has a,Phil Hudson:It works at a corporationMichael Jamin:And you want me to do public speaking, we have a number of talks,Phil Hudson:Keynotes. We can talk about that, Michael. I do a lot of that with some clients.Michael Jamin:Oh really? Oh good. We'll talk about that. KeynotePhil Hudson:Marketing. Yeah. Well, good stuff. Anything you want to add? I mean, we had talked, I think, a little bit about potentially putting the music on. I think everybody's already heard the music on. We've heard some of it. It'sMichael Jamin:Funky. Do youPhil Hudson:Want to play it? It's aMichael Jamin:Funky, let's play some of it. Okay,Phil Hu

On this week's episode, Writer Adam Pava (Boxtrolls, Lego Movie, Glenn Martin DDS and many many more) talks about his writing career, and why sometimes when he writes features, he doesn't always get credited. Tune in for much more!Show NotesAdam Pava on Twitter: https://twitter.com/adampava?lang=enAdam Pava on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1106082/Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptAdam Pava:I think that's the main thing is have samples that show exactly what your voice is and exactly what makes you different than everybody else, and what you can bring to the table that nobody else can. I think that's the first thing, but to get those open writing assignments, I think it's just a cool errand to even try because they're just so risk averse to hire anybody that hasn't done it before. I think the better shot that you have is to make smaller things and then they'll seen you've done it. You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jenman.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back for another episode. I may be retitling the name of my podcast. So I'm, I'm going to be vague for everyone, but I'm here with my next guest, Adam Pava, who's a very talented writer I worked with many years ago on show called Glen Martin, d d s, and he works. We'll talk. I'll let you speak in a second. Pava, you just relax. I'm going to bring you on with a proper introduction because you've worked a lot, lot of features, a lot of animation. So I'm going to run through some of your many credits. Some of them are credited and some of them just are not so credited. We're going to talk about that even though you've done the work. So I think you started early on on shows like Clone High, Johnny Bravo, I'm going to skip around.You worked with us on Glen Martin d d s, but then you've also done Monsters versus Aliens Dragons. I'm going to jump around, but wait, hold on. I'm skipping a lot of your credits, Pavo, a lot of the box trolls you've done, you work a lot with Lord and Miller on all their stuff, all the Lego movies, goblins. You have something in the works with Leica, which is one of the big animation studios which you're attached to direct as well, and then also some other shows. Let's mention My Little Pony dreamland. What else should we talk about? A bunch of the label, it's hard to talk about the credits because so many of 'em are things that are either in production or development that they're not supposed to talk about yet, or they're things that I was uncredited on. And so it's a weird thing.And why are you uncredited? How does that work? It's super different from TV and movies. So back when I worked in tv, I did tv. I mean, back when we worked together it was like what, 10, 15 years ago? Something like that. But I did TV for the first decade of my career and everything you work on, you're credited, even if you're just like the staff writer in the corner who says three words and doesn't make, get a joke into the script. You're one of the credited writers. Movies are a different situation. It's like one of these dirty secrets of Hollywood where they always want to credit one writer or a team of writers. Sometimes it'll be two writers that get the credit if both of 'em did a huge chunk of the work. But the thing that usually happens these days on big studio movies anyway is they will go through three or four writers over the course of the years and years of it being in development and all those writers who worked on it before the final writer or sometimes just the first writer and the last writer will get credit and all the ones in the middle won't get credit.Or it's like the W G A has these arbitration rules where it's like, unless you did a certain percentage of the final shooting script, you're not going to get credit at all. So even though the guy who brings catering gets credit and every person on, so will you arbitrate for credit or do you go into these projects knowing that you're not going to get credit? Usually I go in knowing that I'm not going to get credit or I will. Sometimes there'll be a situation. I did about a year's worth of work on the Lego movie, the first Lego movie, and Phil and Chris, Phil Lauren and Chris Miller who directed that and wrote the first draft of the script and the final draft of the script. They're buddies of mine and so I'm not going to arbitrate against 'em and I want them to hire me in the future and I love them and they really wanted, they're written and directed by title, and so of course I'm not going to arbitrate in that sort of situation.And also to be fair, I don't think I would win that arbitration because they wrote the first draft and it was already the idea and it was brilliant and it came out of their minds and it was awesome. And then they had me do four or five drafts in the middle of there where I was just addressing all the studio notes and all the notes from the Lego Corporation and all the notes from Lucasville and all that kind of stuff while they're off shooting 21 Jump Street and then they come back. So you were just doing it to move it closer and then they knew they were, yeah, exactly. They knew they were coming back onto it and they were going to direct it and they would do another pass. They would do multiple passes once it goes into storyboarding once it's green lit. So I was just trying to get it to the green lit stage, so they had written a draft and then I did a bunch of drafts addressing all these notes and then we got a green lit off of my drafts and then they came back on and they started the storyboard process and directing process.And the story changes so dramatically during that process anyway that the final product is so far removed from the drafts I did anyway, but it was a valuable, my work was needed to get it to that point to where they can jump back onto it. But very little of that final movie is anything that I can take credit for and I wouldn't want to take credit away from them on that. So I do a lot of that kind of work. Did they have other writers that worked on Legos movie as well, or just you? On the first one, it was them and me. There was these two brothers, the Hagerman brothers who had done a very early treatment, but that had set up the original idea for the movie of Allego man sort of becoming alive. So they got a story by credit, and then they definitely always have a stable of writers that they bring in to do punch up work and to just watch the animatic and give notes and stuff like that.So there's a whole bunch of people that are contributing along the way. Funny, they come from tv, so they really run it. They run it as if they're still on TV a hundred percent. They have their writers. And so I've gotten to work on a lot of their projects as one of their staff writer type people basically is the idea. So it's all uncredited work, but it's great work. They're such great guys and you're working on really cool things every time. And so now there's a new, in the last few years, the W G A started this new thing called additional literary Material credit. And so if Lego were to have come out now, I think I would've gotten that credit on it, but at the time, that didn't exist, so I got a special thanks. And how did you, oh, really? Okay. And how did you meet these guys?They gave me my first ever job before I knew you. I mean, I had written a movie script that was an animated movie. This is like 99 or 2000. I was just out of grad. I wrote it while I was in grad school. And Wait, hold on. I didn't even know you went to grad school. Did you study screenwriting in grad school? Yeah, I went to U S C screenwriting. Oh, I did not. I hide it from you. Why do you hide it? For me? I don't know. It's a weird thing where I feel like a, it's like I was in this weird secondary program that wasn't part of the film school. It was the master's of professional writing and screenwriting. And so people would get confused and I didn't want to lead them on, but also I just feel like it got me to a place and then I was like, I didn't want be part of a good old boys club where people are just hiring U S C people or whatever.That's the whole point of going to USC for Yeah, people ask me, should I go to film school, get an M F A, and my standard answer is, no one will ever ask for your degree. No one caress about your degree. The only thing they care about is can you put the words on the page that are good a hundred? But why did you, but what it did offer me, and I'll get back to how I met Phil and Chris in a little bit, but this is a good side conversation. It gave me an opportunity to do some internships on a couple of TV shows. And that was super, super valuable. So when I was at U SS C, it was 99 and 2000, and so I interned my first year on a little show called Friends, which was still on the air. I was on the air at the time.I was just the stage intern. So I was moving the chairs around during the rehearsals and fetching coffees and getting frozen yogurt for cast members or whatever, just shitting my pants, trying to be a normal human being around all these superstars and was not, I wouldn't say it was the best experience of my life. It was definitely one of those things where I was like, everybody was super intimidating and everybody was really busy and the cast were in the middle of a renegotiation, so they're all showing up late. It just felt like everyone was angry the whole time. And I was like, dunno if I want to work in tv. But there was one writer's assistant who was just like, yeah, because on the stage you're a writer, you need to be in a writer's room, you should be an intern in a writer's room.And I was like, oh. And then so I was able to get an internship on Malcolm In the Middle, which had just sold, it was in his first year, so it was a summer show. So I jumped onto that in the summer and was able to do that. And then in that writer's room, I was like, oh, these are my people. These are actual, wait, you were an intern. They let you sit in the writer's room one. It was like for doing all, getting the lunches and making the coffee and all that stuff. Linwood was nice enough to let me just observe in the room for one day a week just to, well, if I didn't have other stuff I needed to get done. So it was super nice as long as I didn't pitch or say anything and I was just, I never would.But it was cool to, that experience showed me that show was so well written and it was so tight and those writers were all geniuses or I thought they were all geniuses. And then I'd go in the room first, I would read the scripts and I would think, oh my God, I'd never be able to do this. And then I got in the room and I'm like, oh no, they're just working really, really hard and banging their head against the wall until they come up with a perfect joke. And then by the time it's done, it seems like it's genius. But it all was just really hard work, really long hours to get to that place. So that taught me like, oh, maybe I can be one of those people. If I'm just one cog in this room, I could do that. And so that gave sort of the confidence to do that.So I had done those. Getting back, I can loop back into the Phil and Chris thing now because this actually connects really well. I had done those internships. I graduated U Ss C and I had this script that I'd written as my final project or whatever, and it was an animated movie, and I thought you could just sell an animated movie, but I didn't know, they didn't teach me this in grad school that at the time they developed 'em all. It was like only Disney and Dreamworks were doing 'em at the time. This is 2000. And they just hire directors and sort of were an artist in-house to sort of create the stories or back then that's how they would do it. And so I sent it to some agents and the response was always like, Hey, you're a really funny writer. This is really good.I can't sell this. I don't know anybody that buys animated movies, but you should write a live action movie if you can write it as good as this. And so I wrote another movie that was Live Action, but it was silly. It seemed like it might as well have been an, I go back and read it now and I'm like, it's basically an animated movie, but it didn't say it was animated, it was live action human beings. And I submitted it to a small boutique agency at the time called Broder. I don't know if you remember them, Broder Crow, we were there. Yeah. And so Matt Rice was an agent there at the time, and he had on his desk, his assistant was Bill Zody. I dunno if you know him, he's a big name agent now, but he was an assistant at the time.He read that script that I wrote and was like, oh, you know who this reminds me of these other clients that Matt has, Phil and Chris. And so he passed it on to those guys and they were looking for a writer's assistant on Clone High because they had just sold their first TV show. They were a young hotshot writers that were just deal. And so I met with Phil and Chris, and they hired me as the writer's assistant on Clone High, which was like, they were the same age as me. They were just like, we don't know what we're doing. But they're like, you've been in a writer's room, you've been knock on the middle and I friends and you, I didn't know anything. I didn't know what I was doing at all, but it said on my resume that I had had these experiences.So they thought I would be a good writer's assistant for that reason. But they were the coolest dudes from the very beginning. They were just like, you're the writer's assistant, but also you should pitch in the room. You should act like you're another writer. We have a really small staff, we have seven writers, and you're going to get episode eight. I mean, it was crazy. They were just like, they gave me a lance and that never happens anymore. How did they get an overall deal when they came? Oh, it's the craziest day. So they went to Dartmouth, they made each other at Dartmouth and then they were doing cartoons while they were there studying animation. And one of Phil's, I think it was Phil, I think it was Phil won the Student Academy Award for a student film that he did. And it was written about in the Dartmouth Alumni magazine.And there was a development exec at Disney whose son went to Dartmouth and read that article and was like, Hey, called them in their dorm room. And we're like, if you guys ever go out to la lemme know. We'll set a meeting. And they literally, the day after they graduate just drove to LA and then called 'em up and we're like, we're ready to get hired. And it worked and they got hired, it worked. They got hired just to do Saturday morning stuff, and they did that for a little bit and everything they were doing was too crazy for Saturday morning, but it was like Disney. But then Disney was like, well, you can start developing stuff for adult Disney or for primetime stuff. And so they came up with the idea for Clone High, and it originally sold to Fox as a pilot to be after the Simpsons or whatever, but then it didn't get picked up and then M T V picked it up and then they had a show.So it's crazy what a trajectory their career has. Yeah, I know. And now they're running Hollywood. Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. Yeah. They were good guys to meet right away mean honestly, it was like to become friends with them and just to ride their wake and get some of their sloppy seconds and some of the stuff that they don't want to deal with, it's honestly, it was great. Did they call you a lot with stuff like that? Hey, we don't want to do this. It's yours less now than they used to. I mean, there was a point where I was one of their stable guys that they would call. I think they have met a lot of people in the 20 years since then, but early on it was like, I mean, even their first movie was Claudio with a Chance of Meatballs, and they brought me on to help rewrite the third act at one point.And it was just from then on, they would always send me their scripts and just add jokes or to give feedback or whatever, and they've always been like that. And then I've noticed the last maybe six or seven years as they've gotten these huge deals and all their projects are now just these massive things, it's not quite the same relationship where they would just text me or email me and be like, Hey, read this. Now. It's like they have a whole team of people. They have a machine now, but we still are friends. And then things will come up where they'll hire me for things here and there. I wonder, honestly, I don't want to make this differe about them, but it's so interesting. I kind of think, I wonder what it's like to be that busy. It almost feels like, oh my God, I'm too busy.They're so busy. They're the hardest working people I know. It's like people always wonder how this stuff comes out so good. And it's not that, I mean honestly, it's just good because they stay up later than everybody. They never stop tinkering with things. They're never satisfied. They always think the next thing they do is going to ruin their career. And so they run on this fear that propels them that, I mean, they harness it. It's not like it's a secret. They know that this is what makes them great and utilizing all their friends utilizing, they're the kind of people that are the best idea in the room wins. If you could be the PA or the head of the studio and if you have a great idea, they're like, let's try it. And they also try a lot of stuff that doesn't work and they're given the leeway to go down a lot of dead ends and then realize that's not the answer, and then back up and then try it again and try it again and try it again.And that's how a lot of animated movies are done. And so it drives everybody crazy, but also creates amazing product. That's what, because I've interviewed a couple of guys who worked at dreamworks, which John Able who does a lot of the kung movies, and he describes it the same way. I was like, wow, it's so different from writing live. It's so different from writing live action. The whole experience sounds exhausting to me. Do you find it the same? Yeah, I mean when I first started in it, I was like, this is ridiculous. Why don't they just write a script and then shoot the script? And then over the years, I've learned to love the process. I mean, I was frustrated early on when I would realize how much gets thrown out and how much changes and how much. It's just, it's out of the hands of one writer.And I think a lot of it is also just ego thinking that you could do it better than everybody. And then once I embraced, oh no, you have a bunch of really brilliant storyboard artists and you have a bunch of really brilliant character designers and head of story and a director and all these different people who, and layout artists and even the animators themselves, they all add something so vital and valuable to it, and you learn stuff from each of their steps and then you're just given the leeway to be able to keep adjusting and adjusting until you get it right. And that's why animation comes out so much tighter often than live action is just because you've been able to see the movie so many times and keep tweaking and tweaking until you get it right. Now there is a point where sometimes I feel like you can take that too far and then it just becomes like, oh, we had a great version, four drafts to go and now we've lost our way, or we're just spinning our wheels or whatever.See, that's why I get lost sometimes. I've been in shows where you rewrite something to death and then someone says, we should go back to the way it was, and I'm like, what was the way it was? I don't even remember anymore a hundred percent, and I've stopped ever thinking You can do that. I used to think I would hold out hope though they'll realize that the earlier draft was better. They'd never do. It's like everybody forgets it, and then you just have to have the confidence to be like, well, we know we'll come up with something better together that it'll be from the collaborative mind of all of us. And then I think now I've seen actually the last few years, there's a little bit of a tightening of the belt budgetarily, and that leads to faster schedules. And so instead of having seven times that you can throw the story up from beginning to end on the storyboards, like the reels and watch this movie, you can only do it three times or so.That gives you a little bit more of a window of like, okay, we got to get it right in three drafts or whatever, in three storyboard drafts. And who's driving the ship then in animation? Is it not the director in this case, it's Lord Miller, but they're the writers. Well, Lord Miller are often the directors, and so when they're the directors, they're in charge when they're the producers, they're in charge When they're on the Spider Verse movies, for example, they're the writer or Phil writes them and then they hire directors. But Phil and Chris are the producers, but they're sort of like these super directors. They're very unusual. Yeah, it's not, yeah, that's an unusual situation. But other movies somebody do at dreamworks and there's somebody do at Leica Leica, it's like the director and the head of the studio, Travis Knight, who it's his sandbox and it's his money because he's a billionaire that funds the studio.He has the ultimate say, and so the directors are always working with him, but it's always collaborative. It's always like you get in a room. When I'm working at Leica, it's always like me, the director and Travis trying to figure it out, and he's trusted me to be, I feel like he doesn't trust a lot of people. He is kind of closed off in that way, but once you earn his trust, you will be in that room and you'll figure it out together or whatever. But every movie's different, and sometimes I'm on a movie just to help fix it for a little bit, and then I'm just a fix it person that comes in for a little bit. Sometimes I just add jokes. Sometimes I just, there's been movies where it was a mystery animated movie and they're like, can you just rewrite the mystery?I was like, what a weird assignment. But I had three weeks still. But in this case, they're calling you. How are you getting this work? Just reputation, they're calling you out of nowhere? Mostly now it's reputation. I mean, sometimes I'll be submitted to it. I mean, the first time it's always like you have to be submitted. And I mean, I can tell you how I got hired on box rolls. That was a big breakthrough to me. I mean, it was after I'd done, so Lego was obviously just having known and worked with Phil and Chris forever, and then they got hired on Jump Street, and they needed somebody that they trusted to dear the ship for a while while they're gone. And so I was able to do that, and that was a huge big break. It was like, you couldn't ask for that. I just, I'm the luckiest guy in the world.But after that, at Leica, they had a draft of a movie before it was called box Rolls, it was called Here Be Monsters, and it had been in development for years and years and years and gone through a bunch of writers and they hadn't quite figured it out. It was kind of a mess. It was a big sprawling story that had a lot of moving parts to it, and they had heard that on Lego, I was able to harness a lot of the crazy ideas that Phil and Chris had and put it into a structure that made sense. And so they asked me to come in and do the same thing, or before they even did that, I did a punch up. I got hired to do a punch up on that movie, and I knew that it was going to be a huge opportunity to impress them.I really, really wanted to work at Leica because at the time, they had only had Coralline come out and I loved that movie. And then I had seen maybe ParaNorman had come out or it hadn't come out yet, but it was about to, whatever it was, I knew it was a new animation studio doing really unique original stuff, and I got asked to be part of this round table, and it was all these heavy hitter Simpsons writers. It was like J Kogan and Gamo and Pross, all these people that you're like, these are all legends. They've done a million shows and they get hired to do punch up all the time. That's like their bread and butter, right? I'm not so sure anymore, but okay, no, no, but this is in 2011 or whatever.And I was like, I am going to take this script and analyze it and come up with character moments and come up with, I'm not going to be able to compete with those guys with the best joke in the room necessarily. I'll have good jokes to pitch, but I'm going to have like, oh, what if we adjust the character to be more like this? And where those guys were all, not those guys specifically, but the room in general, these were all guys who were maybe reading five pages ahead and then pitching off the top of their head. And I spent a couple of days writing jokes in the margin and ideas in the margin, and I killed in that room. I got a lot of stuff in and to the point where a few months later when they needed a big overhaul, they asked me to come in and do sort of what I had done on Lego, just take this big thing and hone it down into, so it was a rewrite job at the beginning, and then it turned into three years of working with the director in the studio to change that story.We threw everything out and started over basically a couple times over the course of those years end up, but how are you get paid? Are you getting paid on a weekly scale? Because I don't know how that would work. Do you get paid? It starts off with a draft and then it'll be a typical thing like a draft in two rewrites, but you quickly run through those and then they keep needing your work. At least they're not getting free work out of you. They're picking no, then it turns into either a day rate or a weekly rate, and that's where I bought my house.I made so much money on my day rate. They would literally just, Leica would call me and just be like, oh, we're going to record an actor in a few days. Can you just go through all their scenes and write three or four alts for every joke? Just have a bunch of stuff. And I would spend a few days doing that, and then a day rate, you get paid really, really well, that stuff adds up. Or they would be like, we just need one more pass on the third act, or we just need to go through the whole script and remove this character. And so all these little weekly assignments, and then you're just like, that was very lucrative doing it that way.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Adam Pava:You usually, because done so much animation and it sounds like you always set out to do animation, is that I did set out to do it, and then I didn't set out to only do it. I thought I could do both, but you kind of get pigeonholed a little bit. It's hard. I've gotten hired to write a few live action movies, but there were always a live action movie that had an animation element to it. It could be a hybrid movie or be a family movie that they think, oh, because you've done family work, you can do this. But nobody would ever hire me to just do a horror movie or whatever. And I don't know if I'd be the right guy for that either. I think my sensibility tends to be more animation based, but also, I think movies are such a different thing than TV where there's like, they're so expensive.If you're spending $80 million or whatever, you want to hire somebody that's done it before. So it's really, really hard for the studio bosses or even the lower level executives to fight to hire you if you've never done that kind of thing before. And so you get, it's not pigeonholed. I love doing it and I love the work, but it's also, I get why I get hired for certain things and not for other things. But also I feel super lucky because animation is one of the only parts or the only genres of film that has not shrunk over the years. Movies in general, they've stopped making live action comedies almost completely, except for stuff on streamers. They don't make rom-coms anymore. They barely make action comedies. It's like they make superhero movies and Star Wars movies, but then animation movies are evergreen. And so I feel really lucky that I sort of fell into this area that there is still work to be had.So yeah, I mean, you really have put together a really pretty impressive career. And I know not all your credits, not all your work is credited, so what I mean? Yeah, well, it's either uncredited or there's so many projects that died Vine. So it's like you read my, I said you that list of credits and it's like I'm looking at it over earlier today. Oh, it's just a list of debt projects, but that's expected. When you go into it, you go, okay, they're not all going to go. That's expected. It's all right. I was looking at my, I was organizing my, it's a strike, so I have time to do these things, organizing my folders on my computer and putting everything in, and I had over 150 folders of each. One is its own project, and not all of those are work that I've done.Some of them are like, I got sent this thing to pitch on, and then I had one meeting and it went away. And some of 'em I did a few weeks on, or some of 'em I just did day work on, but 150 projects over the years. Some of 'em I'm on for a year or two or three years. So it's insane. And so the hit ratio is super low of, I got really lucky when I transitioned out of TV and went into movies. It was like the first two things. Well, I sold a thing to Dreamworks that didn't get made, but then right after that, it was Lego and box trolls. They both came out in 2014, and I worked on both of 'em, and I was like, oh, this is going to be easy. You work on a movie and then it comes out and then it's cut to 10 years later and it's like nothing else is my name on it has come out.I've worked steadily. I've worked really well. I've been very happy. But it's definitely, it's a different thing than TV where you're just working and getting credited all the time. Well, yeah, but it also sounds like, I don't know, it sounds like to me, maybe I'm wrong. It sounds like you don't need to hustle as much doing what you do. No, I feel like it's the opposite because on TV you can get on a show and you're running for years, but on a movie you always know what's going to add, but they're coming to you. People are coming to you with offers, in other words. Oh yeah, sometimes. I mean, yes, the ones that end up happening, that's true. But there's so many that I'm just on a list at the studio, but I'm in a bake off with six other writers and I don't get it.So you put a lot of work so people don't know what to bake off is. So this is when you have to pitch to get the job and you have to put in several weeks of work. That's the worst. That's just the worst. And that's the majority of my life. Oh, is it? That's like, yeah. Yeah. So there's definitely, I mean, between Phil and Chris and Laika, I have, and a little bit of Dreamworks now. I'm doing my third movie for them right now. So that's pretty good over 10 years, three movies. But other than those places, it's always like you're getting sent stuff, but that doesn't mean they want you. It just means they want to hear a bunch of takes, and so you have to try to fight for the job if you really want it. Or I used to spend months or maybe eight months coming up with the take and having every detail worked out.And then I realized over time, they don't actually want that. They want a big idea and some themes and some ideas of what the set pieces are, and they want to know that you, I mean, honestly, it's, I don't even recommend that young writers go out for them because you're not going to get it anyway, because they're always going to go with somebody that has done it before. Especially, I mean, not always, if you might be the rare exception, but so much. Well, then what do you recommend to young writers to do? Dude, I don't know. I mean, I think you have to write great samples. I mean, I think that's the main thing is have samples that show exactly what your voice is and exactly what makes you different than everybody else, and what you can bring to the table that nobody else can.I think that's the first thing. But to get those open writing assignments, I think it's just a fool's errand to even try, because they're just so risk averse to hire anybody that hasn't done it before. I think the better shot that you have is to make smaller things, and then they'll see you've done, it's not even try to get these big studio things, get a small indie thing if you can, or make your own thing if you can, or just try to work your way up in a smaller way. I mean, all the big name directors out there all started on small indie movies. And I think that's got to be the same for writers now too. So many fewer movies. Is there anything that you're doing on the side just for the love of it that you're creating for yourself? Or is it, I haven't, in the last few years, I haven't.I've just been busy with work, but during the pandemic, I had plenty of time. Nobody was buying movies, and I am wrapped up on something and I had an idea that I thought was going to be my next big sale, and that it was an idea about a virus that went, it was a comedy thing, but it was this idea where it was sort of based on the idea that Christmas is getting longer and longer every year, where people put up their lights in decorations sooner and sooner, and you start seeing the stuff for sale in October or whatever. And so I was like, oh, it felt like Christmas was a virus that was slowly taking over the world. And I was like, what if it's a zombie movie, but Christmas is the virus? And so it was sort of a Christmas apocalypse thing where Christmas takes over the world and one family didn't get infected and had to fight back.So I was like, this is going to be a big seller. And then I was like, and then Covid hit, and it was like nobody wanted to buy a thing about a virus taking over the world, so I literally spent the pandemic. To answer your question, I wrote it as a novel. Instead, I wrote it as a middle grade novel, a y, a novel. Did you publish it? Not yet. We're trying. So we're out to publishers, and it took a while to figure out literary agents, which are very different world and everything, but the idea is to hopefully sell it as a book and then be able to adapt it as a feature. But yeah, it was so fun to write, and it was so freeing to not be stuck in 110 pages and to, I mean, I already had the whole thing outlined from the pitch when I was going to pitch it, so I knew the structure of it, so I just kept it as the structure of a movie, but I expanded on it and got more into the character's heads and that kind of stuff.But I had such a fun time writing that, and I was just like, man, someday when the work dries up, I am going to look forward to writing novels instead. And oh, yeah. The funny thing is when you describe the literary word going out to publishers, it's not that different from Hollywood. You think It is. It's not. It's the same hell. Oh, absolutely. But you and I haven't had to deal with breaking into Hollywood in a long time. And then in the literary world, they're like, oh, you've written movies. We don't care. We don't care at all. So it's starting over. And U T A tried to help a little bit, but they're like, we don't really know what to do. And then, so it's, I've been, my manager has been introducing me to editors and stuff, literary editors, and they've been really receptive, and it's been good trying to find the right one and the person I jive with. But it's very much like, oh, you're starting from scratch all over again. And for less money, no money. I mean, literally, I don't know how you would make a living off of this. I mean, I think we're spoiled a little bit, but what was the money they were telling you? Can you say, I don't want to say you don't, but it was basically about, it was less than a 10th that I would get paid on a movie.It was about my weekly rate. So I was telling you, I do weekly jobs on movies, and it's like if I do a weekly on a studio movie or I could sell a novel, or you could work five years on a novel, and I'm like, oh, this is not a way to support a family, but it was really fun. Someday when I'm just doing it for fun, I would love to do it. Wow, how interesting. Wow. So your best advice, because you're not an animator, you're not even an artist, are you? No, I don't draw or anything. I just love animation. I just always loved animation. So I don't know. I think when I was in seventh grade when the Simpsons started, and that blew my mind, and I was like, I remember telling my dad, I think I want to write on this. It was the first time I recognized, oh, people are writing these jokes. It was very, I think, more self-aware than most comedy was. And I was in junior high and I was just like, I want to be a writer on a show like this. I never was a writer on that show, but a bunch of other stuff.Now, as far as directing, because I know you're attached to possibly direct this project, where does your confidence come from that to direct? I mean, I don't know if I have confidence in it. I mean, I would want to co-direct it. In animation, you often get paired with another, if you're a writer, you'd get paired with an experienced animation director who comes from the visual side. So either an animator or a store wear artist or visual development artist. And I just feel like some of the projects I've been doing, you sort of act as more than just a writer anyway. You're sort of meeting with the creative heads all the time, making these big decisions that affect the projects. And at a certain point, I'm like, well, if I write something, that project that I, that's at life that I was attached to, it probably won't even happen at this point.It's been a few years, and it's kind of sitting there waiting for Travis to decide if he wants to make it. But it was a personal project to me, and it was like this would be the one that I was like, I would really want to see this all the way through. And I'm sure at that studio at this point, he's, Travis himself who runs the studio, is kind of directing all the latest projects anyway, so I would be co-directing with him. And so he would really be in charge, and I would just be, they're up in Seattle, right? Portland? Yeah, Portland or in Portland, yeah. So do you go up there a lot for Yeah, when I'm on a project, so usually it's like if I'm just writing it before it's green lit, which is most of the time I'll just fly up there for meetings just to get launched or whatever, and then go back up after I turn it in to get notes. But if it's in production on box trolls, and then there's another upcoming one that I did a bunch of production work on, they'll fly me up there to work with the board artists and stuff. And that's a crazy, that place is so nice.It's like a wonderland. I mean, it's like this giant warehouse downstairs that they have all the stages and they're all covered with black velvet rope, I mean black velvet curtains. So to keep all the light out and everything. And that's where they're moving all the puppets and everything, the stop motion. And then upstairs it's like the offices, and it just feels like a corporate office building with cubicles and stuff. It's very weird. But you go downstairs and it's like there's people animating, there's this huge warehouse where they're building all the props and they're like armature section where they're adding all the skeletal armature to the You never went with us to, because Kapa was like that in a cup of coffee in Toronto when we did Glen Martin. Yeah, it was amazing though. Similar. But Kapa is doing it on a budget, and these guys are spending so much money, it's not a viable way to make money to make these animated stop motion animated movies.They don't do it to make money. He does it. He loves it. Oh, really? Oh my gosh. Yeah, because Travis Knight is the son of Phil Knight who've gone to Nike, so he's got sort of a lot of money, and it's his hobby shoe money. He's got shoe money, but he is a brilliant animator. He is a super smart, interesting dude who wants to make things that are different than anybody else. And so it's an amazing place to work because nowhere else do you ever have the conversation of like, oh, we could do this if we wanted to do it, where more people would see it, or we could do it this way, which is cool and we want to do this. It's fun and weird.Not that he doesn't care about an audience, he does care about an audience, but it's not most important to him is making something that's awesome to him for the art. And so it's a very different way of looking at things. But I've been in situations there where it's like we're doing upstairs, doing a rewrite with me and the director changing the whole third act or whatever, and then I go downstairs and just tour the stages and the workshops, and I'll meet a puppeteer who's like building this giant puppet who's telling me this is the biggest puppet that's ever been created in Stop motion, and here's the 17 different places where I can articulate it. And I'm just thinking like, dude, we cut that yesterday upstairs. Oh no. And he's been working on it for a month. Oh, no. But I can't say anything. I'm just sort of like, oh, yeah, that's awesome.It's so great. You're doing great work. Anyway, I'm going to get back upstairs. That's so heartbreaking. But they burn through so much money just doing it all by hand. It's so crazy. But it's so beautiful, so I love it. And so you were literally upstairs, they gave you a small office and you just start typing? Yeah, that's literally, I mean, usually when I'm there, it's like they just put me in some random cubicle that nobody else is using or it's not a cubicle, a little office that is or whatever, somebody office. And you'll stay there for a few days or a few weeks or what? Yeah, exactly. Depending on how much they need me. So it either be a few days or a few weeks. And then on box rolls, I was up there. I would be up there for a week, relining some stuff, and then I'd come back home for two weeks and write those pages up.And I mean, I'd be writing in the evenings after the meetings and stuff too, while I was up there. But when we are rewriting, it's a train that's moving and it's like the track is you're running on a track and you got to keep pressure. What did you think of staying there in Portland? Did you like it? I did it. It's hard because my family's here and life is here, but if that movie had gone that I was attached to Coder Act, we were planning on moving there for that for three or four years. That's how it would take. Interesting. Would you have sold your house here or just rented it out? I'd have rented it out, I think. Interesting. Yeah, you, it was like we were having all these conversations, and then it's the longer it goes, we're like, that's probably not going to happen.We don't have to think about this right now. How interesting. That's so key. It really takes that long, man. Oh yeah. They're so long. And then also, it's like there is this weird thing in animation where it's not uncommon for a movie to go through two or three directors over the course of its many years in production. So it's like, why? I know. Just because they're beasts. And sometimes in the same way that you're changing the story so many times over the years, sometimes you make such a drastic change that it's no longer the vision of that director, and it's just not a right fit anymore. And I've seen that happen on a lot of movies that I've been on. I mean, Boxtrolls didn't end up with the same two directors that it started with. One of the two stayed on it, but the other one didn't.Oh, no, this sounds very frustrating to me. It sounds It does. And then other movies up there have gone through different directors, and so I was like, even if I had gotten hired as the director, I was in the back of my head. I always knew this might not last even if I'll do my best and I'll try to make it work. But you haven't even started and you're finding I'm being fired. Yeah, totally. But I mean, it's a weird thing. It's not TV where you're on a show for a year and then hopefully you get the second year if you get one. It's like in movies, they fire and hire different writers all the time, and so directors less, but writers, it really is pretty common. I've been on both sides of it where it's like, I used to take it really harder, fired off a movie.You're like, oh my God, did they not like the draft? I did. And usually it's like, no, we liked it, but now there's a director on it and they want to take a different direction. Or Oh, the director has a friend that they want to work with that they work with as a writer. Or other times I've been that guy that a director has brought on to rewrite somebody else, and I always try to be super nice about it. Now that I've seen both sides of it, I always try to reach out to the previous writer and be like, Hey, I just want you to know it's in good hands. Or sometimes if I'm the one that's fired, I reach out, be like, Hey, if you want to know where the skeletons are buried, happy to get in lunch with you. Just to be like, here's the pitfalls to look out for.This is where people don't realize that people on the outside just don't realize what it's actually like when you're the writer. You're a successful working writer. And I think they have a very different vision of the reality of a hundred percent. I didn't know the job was, I thought the job was going to be writing the whole time. Most of the job is it's playing politics with the studio and the executives and the director and Well, what do you mean politics, getting navigating the notes? What do you mean? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's like the notes, but also the personalities. It's like a lot of the job I feel like is to go in and to make everybody feel comfortable with where you're taking it. Because you walk into a room and sometimes you could feel like, oh, the director thinks they're making a very different movie than the head of development thinks.Then that's different than what the producer thinks. And that's different than what the head of the studio thinks. It's like I've been in a room where it's like Jeffrey Katzenberg is just like, guys, guys, guys, you're all thinking about this all wrong. And you just have to be like, okay, how can I find solutions that makes everybody happy, that make everybody happy? And that's a huge part of the job. I mean, honestly, when I did the Lego rewriting with Phil and Chris, that's what the whole job was, was just like, how do I make Warner Brothers who didn't know what they had? They thought it was a toy commercial. They were very skeptical of the whole thing, Phil and Chris, who wanted to make some beautiful art. And it was cool with cool ideas. And Lego Corporation who wanted to make a toy commercial and Lucasfilm who didn't want their characters to be in it, and DC who didn't know whether they should be or not.And you're just like, how do I get in a room? And and usually if you come up with a great gag or great joke that articulates the, that illuminates the tone of the thing. So they all go, oh, okay. That's the thing. So the round of notes, like you're saying, oh, it's incredible, but for everybody and everyone's got conflicting. I don't even know walking into that job, and all I care about is I don't want my friends, Phil and Chris to think I fucked up their movie because they're trusting me just so I keep it moving. But I would think even for them, it's like, how do I get this movie made when I have so many competing notes and to their credit account, great, but still that is a hundred percent to their credit, they have a genius ability to, not only are they great writers and great directors, I think more than that, they have this sense of how to make everybody in a room think that the ideas came from them.It's like, yeah, they're great at, they'll go into a room, I think sometimes having some ideas in their pocket, but it feels like the room came up with the ideas together, and then everybody's like, yes, we did it. Pat ourselves on the back. And everybody, the executives' seem happy. But sometimes it actually does come out that, I mean, those brainstorm sessions really do create a new idea, and sometimes it's them trusting the process that that's going to work out. And sometimes I think they literally are like, well, we can go this way or this way, but I know it'll be easier if they think they had the idea. So let's go this way for now. And then later they know it's going to change a thousand times anyway in the storyboards, and then they could figure it out for real later. Because all these see people like that.They're very well paid, but in my opinion, they're earning every penny of this a hundred percent. They're earning every, it's not that easy. This job, I feel like I've gotten better over the years where I've taken my ego out of it. I used to have a much bigger ego, you might remember, but I feel like I can be, now, I can just go in a room and be like, I'm just going to try to help. I'm just going to be like, how could I make everybody feel comfortable? How can I make everybody feel like we're on the right page together and create this thing? I know that it's like the process is going to take years and years, and the relationship is more important than the individual story note or whatever. It's like that's what's going to matter over the long term of this project.It's that we all trust each other and that we can make something great together. And that's more important than fighting for a joke or fighting for a story moment or a take, or even exactly, either. It's about fighting the relationship, and I've said this before, it's about the relationship is the most important thing, and sometimes you have to sacrifice what you think is the best story, the best moment for the greater good of the relationship. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Wow. I feel like this has been eyeopening even for me, and I feel like my eyes are fucking opened. You know what I'm saying?We've done some movie work, but obviously we work mostly in tv, but the movie side, the movie side was never really appealing. I remember because we shared the same agent for our futures, and I remember he gave us a conversation. I was like, I dunno if I want to work in movies again. It's weird. It sounds hard. It's different because in TV you're the boss, right? I mean, when you're the showrunner, you're the boss. Yeah. You've been there for a long time. And in movies, you're never the boss. I mean, I gave up on, I mean, before I worked with you, there was one TV show I ran and I co ran with my friend Tim, and we were the bosses, and I hated it. I did not enjoy it. It was like all the meetings and all the decisions and the budgets and the interpersonal relationships and all that stuff.I was like, I was not good at it back then, and I don't know if I'd be better now, and I just was like, you know what? I just want to be part of a team and I want to be a writer. And it's like in movies, that's what you are. You're just part of this big team in a different way. I mean, I guess when you're a staff writer or coming up through the ranks and tv, you're part of a team too, but you can be like, you're also a much more integral part of the team, the one writer on it at the time. Or in movies, you're like, when you're the writer, you're the writer and they all look to you for that one job. Or if you're on a staff when I'm on a show with you or whatever, you might look to me for one type of, it's very different. I'm a cog in this room.It's never, you never have to be a hundred percent on your A game every day for you can showing it in a little bit coast. Wow. Adam Paval, what an interesting conversation. This is enlightening for me. Very enlightening. Yeah, man. Are you having everybody on from the old days, Brian? Well, I had Alex Berger on a while ago. We talked a little bit about that script that you guys wrote together. Well, there's two things on Glen Martin. You were always pestering me to do a musical. Yeah, I think, I don't know how to write a musical. And you're like, this is why I've work in animated features. I've written three musicals since I, so lemme let you do the movie. I was like, dude, I don't know how to do so go ahead and knock yourself out. That was fun. And then you guys came back with that Christmas episode. I thought you guys both hit it out of the park. I was like, let's shoot it, let's shoot it.I think it took, because that was all second year stuff and it took a little bit of time to figure out tonally what we were doing and then just to get a little crazier. And then, I mean, those episodes were like, yeah, I could be a little bit more myself of writing the weird stuff that I wanted. I mean, the other one I remember fondly is that weird Funshine episode. Was that the musical one or was that, I don't remember. Dude, fun cine was, it was like the planned community in Florida that was basically celebration Florida and they all realized that everybody was on being drugged and were lactating out of their breast and all that. Oh, that's right. Now I remember the guy, there was a scene where there's a pregnant man or something. It was fucking nuts. And I was like, oh, now we're writing the show that I could write.The first year, I think it was a little bit more like I was a little square pa in a round hole where it was like I didn't have a family at the time and it was a family show. It was about a dad and a mom trying to navigate their crazy kids and I was like, I don't know what the fuck. Crazy in that show. It's a shame. We didn't do more seasons. We weren't nuts. It was fun. It was a fun time. For sure. I got some of the puppies right over there, so see, yeah, I got the one you gave me of me that one from the college episode. Oh right, the college episode. That's right. We put you in. You ran the gauntlet I think, didn't you? I think that, yeah, that's exactly right. Funny. Yeah, funny. Adam, Papa, where can people, is there anything want, we can plug people, find you.Are you on social media? Is there anything? I'm not super active. I'm on Twitter. You can find me on Twitter. Adam Papa or Adam or whatever it's called now. X X, I'm on X, but don't really, I'm not super active on it. I don't have anything to plug. Everything's going to come out in four years. Yeah, right. Yeah. Look for Adam Papa in four years when something drops to the movies. That's the process. Dude, thank you again so much for doing this. This was a really interesting conversation. I haven't talked yet, spoken to anybody about this kind of stuff. You are a wealth of information. Alright. Yeah, it's fine. Everyone, thank you so much. Until the next episode drops, which will be next week. Keep writing.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @MichaelJaminwriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

On this week's episode, Writer/Executive Producer Alex Berger (Blindspot, Glen Martin D.D.S, Quantum Leap, and many many more) talks about his writing career, thoughts on breaking into the industry as well as his experiences taking a "Showrunners Course" through the studios.STORY NOTESAlex Berger on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1584238/Alex Berger on Twitter: https://twitter.com/alexbergerla?lang=enFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAUTOGENERATED TRANSCRIPTAlex Berger:They said, when you're interviewing a director, ask if you're the showrunner and you're interviewing somebody who's coming in to do an episode of your show, ask the director, do you cook? And if so, are you a person who uses a recipe or do you like to improvise? And there's no right answer to that, right? But if you cook and you're the person who is going to measure out the exact number of grams of flour and the exact number of grams of sugar, that's kind of how you're going to approach directing. If you're going to come in with a shot list, you're going to be going to stay on time. You're going to make sure that you move the set along. And if you're the person who likes to kind throw a little salt to throw a little sugar, you might be a little more improvisational on say you might be a little more, more. There's little things like that that you're going to how to dig in on this with those. NowMichael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. Michael Jamin here. I have another wonderful guest today and this guest, we're going to talk about drama writing because he works primarily in drama and his story is fascinating how he broke in. And we're going to get to please welcome Mr. Alex Berger and he's worked on Alex. Let me introduce people to some of your amazing credits here and you can fill in in, I'm just going to go for some of the highlights. Well, I know you did Kil, you co-created Glen Martin d d s, which is the show. My partner ran Covert Affairs, the Assets Franklin and Bash the Mentalist Blind Spot. And currently you are a writer on Quantum Leap, so you got a lot of drama. Burger. Welcome, welcome to the podcast.Alex Berger:Thank you so much for having me. It's, it's good to be here. I've been enjoying listening to it.Michael Jamin:Oh man, I'm so happy you're doing this. Let's talk. Let's start from the beginning because I think it was so interesting about your background. So many people say, how do I get a showrunner attached to sell my show? And you kind of sold your show, your show, Glen Martin, d d s. You were pretty new to the scene and then you got a show on the air without much experience. So how did that happen?Alex Berger:Yeah, I'd been out here for probably five or six years and I'd had a couple of staff jobs. I'd had a job doing a sort of comedy variety show before that. That was a very sort of small potatoes thing. But that came about because Steve Cohen Cohen, who I know you've talked about before, was a friend of mine and had mentioned this idea that Michael Eisner had for a long time about a family who traveled the country in an rv and they had writers attached for a long time. Tim and Eric of Tim and Eric Show were attached to write the thing.Michael Jamin:I didn't know any of this.Alex Berger:They got a 60 episode order on their other show, and so they had to back out. And so Steve would come in and pitch a take. So I came in and I pitched a take, and Michael Eisner, who had just left basically running Hollywood, he was running, Disney had just started a company, and he had just had larynx surgery, so he couldn't talk. So every time I pitched something, he had to write his response on a computer, which was fun, but a little challenging.Michael Jamin:But what was the idea, how much, when you pitched your take, what did they give you?Alex Berger:He had said Family lives in an rv. Basically it travels the country and animation. And he had more than that. I mean, it is been almost 20 years, so I've forgotten. But he definitely had a real idea. He'd had this idea for 30 or 40 years that he'd wanted to do over the years at Disney and he wasn't able to do it. So he had a pretty formed idea of what he wanted the show to be. ButMichael Jamin:Was it dentist you came up with that throughAlex Berger:Development? I mean, that was sort of like Steve and I, Steve became sort of a, and it was almost like an incubator instead of a typical situation in which I would come in and pitch a show, he kind of brainstormed with me and created the ideas with me, and we kind of toyed with a couple of different versions of it and came up with the idea of him being, why is he on the road and what's he driving in? And came up with the idea of a dentist that was in his mobile dentistry unit and sort of built some of the characters around that. And it kind of kept getting added to,Michael Jamin:Because all that stuff became comedy gold throughout the seasons. We were like, what kind of idiot has a dental car? Who does he think, what kind of clients? How does that work? And it all became fodder for the show,Alex Berger:For the circus at one point. And it was doing dental work on animals, if I remember correctly. But it was definitely, I didn't think I'd seen that before. So that was kind of one of the things that was fun to explore.Michael Jamin:And so you came up with all the, well, at least the dynamics for the characters, because what I remember, we watched the, I dunno if it was a pilot or presentation that you saw, but yeah, the characters you invented were funny. You had the dumb kid, he had the daughter and she had an assistant, which we hadn't seen that before.Alex Berger:It was definitely even more than other experiences I've had in development, very much a team effort. And then we had sort of come up with a script, and then I think you had Eric Fogle on the show before, and Eric came on and was also sort of added his vision both in terms of look and feel and tone and story, and was digging in with us. And then Michael on his own, paid for an eight minute pilot presentation. So they made an eight minute stop motion, basically the first act of the show. And he took it downtown and took it everywhere. And we ended up setting it up at Nick at night with this 20 episode order. And I think that's when you guys sort of made the picture, right?Michael Jamin:So you started, I'm curious. It's funny how I never even asked you about this. So at that point you had to meet showrunners for a show you created, which we're going to talk about a second. Did you meet a lot of showrunners?Alex Berger:I met none of the showrunners. I met you guys after you'd been hired.Michael Jamin:Oh, really? I wonder how many they had. SoAlex Berger:The tote system was, they wanted to sort of make that decision. And so they met with showrunners and had decided they were very much immediately captivated by you guys and were really excited about, and I don't think it was a pretty quick decision. And then they had me come to meet you guys.Michael Jamin:Now the thing is, I imagine you were very easy to work with and to your great credit, I always felt like you just turned over the keys and it was like, okay, here you go. And it was never an ego thing if you, but was it difficult though for you?Alex Berger:I mean, I can give you the answer that I was thinking at the time, and I can give you the answer that I have in retrospect. I think at the time I felt like, I don't know. It's a good question. Let me give you the answer in retrospect first, which is in retrospect, I know that I was inexperienced to know, especially about comedy writing a lot and certainly about running a show. I think at the time I was very happy for you guys to come in and run it. And exactly as you said, take the keys. I think that I felt intimidated because it was a room full of really seasoned comedy writers. I knew I was one of the least experienced writers on the show, and yet my name was on the show. So it was a kind of a weird game. It's not like a typical situation in which a more experienced writer comes in, but they've never run a show.So they pair them with a show runner and then they're really a triumvirate or something. I definitely felt like experience wise and sort of comedy chops wise, I was with folks who'd broken 2, 3, 400 episodes of cool sitcoms that I really admired. So I felt like I wanted to contribute from a character and comedy perspective as much as I could, but I also felt like I was learning on the fly that I had my name on. So it was definitely tricky to sort of figure that out. But you guys were great about never feeling like you were stepping on toes, and you always would consult with me, especially at the beginning, but it was very clear that it was your show, but it was also that you wanted me to sort be on board with what we were doing.Michael Jamin:And I mean, it was a fun room. I mean, maybe I shouldn't speak for you. I thought it was a fun room. Yeah,Alex Berger:Yeah, it was great. I mean, it was like I'd never been in a sitcom room before. I mean, I've been in a couple of drama rooms as an assistant and a writer, and those rooms are more buttoned up and a little more like, let's come in at 10 and start talking about the story at 10 15. And there's definitely bits and sort of digressions, but a comedy room has a certain energy that you can't replicate. And it was really fun to be in that room. And I've been in rooms that are a little bit like that since, but never anything that was, I laughed quite so much, just had it.Michael Jamin:I was going to ask you about that, right? I haven't worked in any, we've done dark comedy, but never drama. And so I'm curious, you've done a lot of drama. So are the rooms, are they really what you're saying? Are they buttoned up? Are they sur because it's still a creative shop?Alex Berger:It's fun. I would say this is based on a very small sample size of my two years in Glen Martin. And then just listening to comedy writers talk, I think comedy writers find the genius through procrastination. I think that it takes the tangent sometimes to get you to the gold. And I know you guys, especially more than other comedy writers I've known, were very focused on story structure. I know from your time with Greg Daniels and Seaver had bought a book at the mall,And it was very important to you that the story felt like it had load-bearing walls, but it did feel like more free flowing and there were room bits and there was a whole sitcom inside that room of three characters, both people in the room and people we were looking out the window at. So that's definitely different than other shows I've been on, other shows I've been on, it's a little more like, all right, let's get to work. And especially these days with room hours have gotten shorter and so on less. And I've been in Zoom rooms for the last couple of years, so it's even less of a roomMichael Jamin:Basic. Oh, so gotten, haven't gotten, your last rooms haven't been in person either. YouAlex Berger:Haven't? Yeah, I've been in three Zoom rooms since the pandemic.Michael Jamin:It's funny you mentioned because comedy rooms have room bits and our offices were on Beverly Hills and Big glamorous street in Beverly Hills. We would look out the window, and you're right, we would create stories when we weren't making stories for the tv, we were making stories for the regular characters that we would see outside our windows.Alex Berger:Yeah, I mean truly. I know you had Brian and Steve and a couple of other people from the show on. I have not laughed that hard in a room.It was a blast. And I also think there's value to it creatively. It's not wasted time. I think it's just a different way of getting to the process. I remember hearing once of, I can't remember which one, it was a Simpsons writer who would be on draft. He had two weeks to write his draft, and he would past around the fox lot for 12 days and then write the draft in the last two days. And someone asked him, why don't you just write the draft for the first two days and then be done? And he said, because I need those 12 days of pacing to get me to the last two days. And I think copywriter are more prone to that kind of way of thinking. I think.Michael Jamin:See, see, I don't remember that way always. I always get nervous when that story's not broken. I always want to crack the whip seavers more. Like that's, but to me, I was always,Alex Berger:When you were in the room, it was more like, let's stay on story. And when see, it was a little more. And then when you guys were both out of the room, it was even more free flowing, which is not to say that all of the eps weren't trying to keep us on story, but its like it's was a silly show about silly characters and absurd, every premise of every episode had a massive degree of absurdity to it. And so you wouldn't be too serious in a room like that, or you wouldn't be ready to make that kind of show. I mean, at least that was my take on it.Michael Jamin:I would describe that as a writer's show. It was always about what made us laugh and not the 15 year old kids who shouldn't be watching or the 10 year old kids. I knowAlex Berger:It was either Brian or Steve who said it was a show with a demographic of nobody.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Alex Berger:The demographic of the 15 people in that room for sure. We all really enjoyed watch them. They're all really funny. They'reMichael Jamin:Funny.Alex Berger:It was on the wrong network.Michael Jamin:Oh, for sure. Steve and I were horsing around procrastinating on some work we were doing, and for some reason we stumbled on, maybe it was some guy's YouTube channel where he was talking about Glen Martin and this guy nailed it. It was like he was in the room. I don't know how he knew every, it seemed like he knew where we messed up. He knew where we got it. Right. I was justAlex Berger:Amazed. I saw that video and I was like, I can't believe somebody watched the show. I thought that literally, I could not imagine that this guy was that deep into the show.Michael Jamin:Oh no. I get a lot of comments on social media like, oh my God, you ruined my childhood. Really? Like you gave me nightmares.Alex Berger:My wife's cousin is like 25 or 26, and he's dating a girl. And on the second date, he asked her what your favorite shows are. And the second show she said was Glen Martin, d d s. And when he said, oh, my wife's cousin wrote that show, she was instantly smid with him. She gave him so much gr.Michael Jamin:Oh, that's so funny. I mean, it was a wild show, man. Too bad. That was a shame. We were going to spin it off too. We all, oh yeah,Alex Berger:Stone spin off right behind. OhMichael Jamin:Yeah, there you go.Alex Berger:The Drake Stone. Yeah,Michael Jamin:All my dolls. Yeah. As soon as they went under, they go here. Here take some. You must have some dolls, right? They give you some dolls. I haveAlex Berger:Alen Martin Puppet and an Alex Burger puppet, and my kids constantly want to play with them and I won't let them.Michael Jamin:Who were you in the show? I don't remember what kind.Alex Berger:I think I was a Greek God carrying somebody at some point in some fantasy sequence and they would reuse the puppets. That was what was so funny. So I think that was one thing, and then they reused me as another thing.Michael Jamin:And did you ever get out to Toronto to see theAlex Berger:No. Did you go upMichael Jamin:There? Oh yeah. We went once and Fogel and I had a very romantic dinner together on top of the Toronto Space Needle or whatever they call that. I sawAlex Berger:Them shooting the pilot presentation, which they shy in New York. It was incredibly cool, but just I've always found set to be tedious in general, but I can't imagine how tedious it must be to do stop motion.Michael Jamin:Do you go, oh, I think they wanted to poke their eyes out, but do you go on set a lot for dramas? Yeah. Is it just your episode or what?Alex Berger:Depends on the show. I did this show called Blind Spot for five years, and basically we would have a writer on set for every episode and we would try to make it your episode, but oftentimes it was the writer who wrote the episode had a baby and is on maternity leave or they can't go to New York at this time or if they went to New York and they wouldn't be back in LA for the breaking of their next episode. So we tried to shuffle it around a little bit and it's trickier when it's out of town. You've got to make people have life that they've got to plan around. But you're going for three and a half weeks to New York.Michael Jamin:Are most of your show shot out of town?Alex Berger:It's been mixed Quantum Leap, which is the show I'm on now is Shot Year on the Universe a lot. Blind Spot was New York Covert Affairs, which I went to a lot of episodes for, was in Toronto, which was a lot of fun. And then I've had a couple Franklin, imagine the Mentalists were LA and it's been sort of a mix.Michael Jamin:How many day shoots are most of your shows? Dramas?Alex Berger:It depends on the budget of the show. Blind Spots started as nine and then was eight and a half and some tandem days and by the end was eight. They keep pulling money budget every year. Quantum Leap I think is eight.Michael Jamin:Interesting. And then what do you, as a writer on set for comedy when on set, it's like, I want to make sure they're playing the comedy right, making jokes, but what are you looking for that the director isn't covering?Alex Berger:Well, first of all, it's a lot of times if you have a great director, it's a team effort. So the director is obviously in charge of the set, but if you have a director who's collaborative, they're asking you, do you feel like that works? Or which take do you feel like was better? It's blocking work for you and your main job is just to make sure that you're the protector of the script and a protector of the story. And it's not like, excuse me, you didn't say the word there. Although there a Sorkin set, they will keep you word perfect, but it's more like, actually, I know you want to change that line. It doesn't feel comfortable in your mouth, but it's really important that you say this. It's going to set something up that we're doing in three episodes, or Hey, just so you know, when you're saying this to this character, you're actually lying and you're going to be revealed to be.It's a lot of making sure that everybody knows the episode up to the episodes we're leading to. And then, yeah, there's still a lot of shows I've worked on have a fair amount of comedy. So you're still making sure jokes, land and actors, this doesn't feel comfortable in my mouth. Do you mind if I say it like this? Or if you work with an actor who wants to have a little bit and wants to assert a line, sometimes I need to be the one to say, okay, well then that means that this person needs to say this line after to keep a joke going.Michael Jamin:Right? Right. It's interesting, and especially when scenes are shot out of order, it is easy for actors to lose track of where they are in the story. So that is theAlex Berger:Part I really like is Prep, because I've worked on a lot of big shows, big action shows and into you fly to New York with your script in hand and you're so excited. And then the first thing that the line producer tells you every single time is, we're $400,000 over budget. Before you even say hello. The fun part to me is the puzzle of how do you protect the story with the constraints of we can't shoot this in nine days. I've walked into episodes that were supposed to be seven day shoots, and the board came out and it was 10 days. And so you've got to figure out, okay, we can move this back into the house so we can take this care, we can do this here. And actually the shootout that happens after the bank robbery, maybe that happens off screen, stuff like that.Michael Jamin:So are you doing a lot of rewriting on set then?Alex Berger:It's usually in prep.Michael Jamin:Okay. In prep,Alex Berger:By the time you're on set in a drama, you're pretty close to set to go unless something changes or an actor nowadays, if an actor gets covid, then all of a sudden you're taking that actor out of the scene and rewriting the scenes and why are they, that kind of thing.Michael Jamin:And then are your showrunners ever on any of these shows ever on set? Or are they always sending proxies? Yeah, itAlex Berger:Depends. It depends on the show. So typically on the shows that I've been on, the showrunner, the showrunner was there for the pilot. They're usually going to go for 1 0 2 just to, it's been four months and they want to reestablish a tone and kind of be a leader, and then they'll try to pop in and out a bunch during the year so that it's not like they're just coming when there's a problem. And then when the show's in la, the showrunner will usually try to pop by after set, especially if before the Zoom Room thing, the writer's room would wrap at seven, the production's still going, so they usually come for the last couple scenes, something like that.Michael Jamin:How many writers are there usually on these hour shows?Alex Berger:I mean, I'm curious to hear what your answer is for comedy too, because it's really shrinking in the beginning. I mean, Glen Martin was what, 10, 12, something like that, including if you're Partners is too, and then it's gotten down to 10 and then eight. And then I think Quantum Leap were about 10, which is a big staff, but the Netflix show I just worked on was six. The show, the Assets that I did, which was a limited series was five. And this is a lot of big issues of the strike is these rooms are getting too small. What are the root comedy rooms like now? Because I know there's been, it's like sometimes it's like 25 people in a roomMichael Jamin:Well, on animation, but I think those days are kind of overAlex Berger:Or big network sitcoms aren't there.Michael Jamin:I don't think they're that big. I don't think there aren't big network sitcoms anymore, but I don't think, I mean it was never,Alex Berger:What was the Tacoma room?Michael Jamin:Oh, it's probably eight or so. But that's a small cable show,Alex Berger:But they're all small. I think they're all like that now. Even the network comedies, unless you're Abbott, they're all 13 or eight orMichael Jamin:Yeah, I think even just shoot me back in. This was in the day, I want to say maybe 10 or 12 times. Oh really? That's it. Yeah. Yeah, Roseanne. Roseanne was famously Big. Fred had a big staff, but that was Roseanne. It was a giant show.Alex Berger:And The Simpsons, I know there's these shows that have the two, I mean the drama rooms, there's a bunch of writers who having a big staff and then they like to split the room in two and break two episodes at the same time. A lot of showrunners actually want a small staff and hate having too many voices. I like a big room. I like eight to 10 people because you're always in a drama room, especially you've always got one writer on set, two writers on draft sometimes set, so there's three or four people gone every single day. So your room thins out real fast, and I think you need at least five people to break a story.Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. Now the thing is, you're a funny guy. You have a good sense of humor. You started in comedy, but do you miss at all comedy or do you feel I'm a fish in water with drama?Alex Berger:Yeah, I was in over my head in comedy, I be the guy who can do a little bit of comedy on a drama staff than that guy in a comedy room who's mostly focused on story. I mean, I felt like, obviously I wrote Pilot and I felt like I had a voice on that show, but it was clear to me that this was not the type of show that I was going to be thriving at. I really enjoyed it, but it was like just comedy wasn't my thing. I love writing on a Funny One Hour, Franklin and Bash, which was a legal show, was essentially a comedy that had the stakes of a drama, but the tone of a comedy. And I love because I like being able to go to the serious scene to have the emotional he, to not have to have a joke at the end of every scene. And then I've written some pilots and stuff that have a fair amount of comedy, but I always want, and I've written half hour dramas. It's just I want the pressure of three jokes a page and beating a joke and beating a joke and beating a joke. It just wasn't my pace.Michael Jamin:Well, I got to say, I think it was probably the last script you wrote was you and Pava teamed up to write a Christmas episode. Oh yeah. And you guys crushed it. I remember coming back, you guys turned it in, whatever you guys did together, were like, you guys, you're going to do this together. Probably because PA wanted to write a musical. I was like, Papa, I'm not writing a musical. And he probably did, but you guys turned in a great draft. And I was like, if that show had gone, I'd be like, I remember thinking, well, these guys are going to be stuck in a room together for a long time. Because yeah,Alex Berger:That was a lot of fun. That was a lot of fun. And it's funny, I want to show my kids the show. They're really young and there's not a lot of episodes that are appropriate for little, that one's pretty tame. That one's pretty tame. We did a rom-com parody sort, the Wedding planner parody, and then we did a, what was it? I forget the other ones. It was a lot of fun.Michael Jamin:Oh yeah. What is nutty stuff? So now the dramas, I'm sorry. When you go off to write your own pilots, when you're developing your own, is there a unifying theme tone that you like to pitch? Yeah,Alex Berger:I would say two things. One is fun. I don't want to write some things super dark. I don't want to write. I like watching shows like that. I watch Last Of Us and The Leftovers and a lot of shows that are real bleak and I really enjoy them. But when I'm living in the world for 12 hours a day, for eight years, I want it to be fun. I want to have a certain amount of lightness to it and sort of levity to it, which is not to say it has to be a comedy, it can still be a drama. There just needs to be something fun about it. And even when I'm writing on a show like Quantum Leap, we've had episodes that are really serious, but the ones that I do, I try to make them, I did an airplane hijacking episode, but I tried to make it fun and sort of like an eighties action movie. And then the other thing I would say is sort of optimism. I try to write something that makes you think that the world is going to be a better place. I've written a lot of political shows and politics is pretty dark these days. One, my take is sort of, but if we do this, we can all get through it. None of those have gotten on the air. So maybe that says something about what people feel about optimism these days.Michael Jamin:Well, it's also a numbers game, but how do you feel, let's say you were given the keys to run your show, got on the air somewhere, eight episodes on the air. How do you feel? Feel about that? Yeah, let's do it. I'm ready. Or like, oh my God, what did I get?Alex Berger:Both. I mean, I did the Writer's Guild showrunner training program a couple of years ago, which is phenomenal. WhatMichael Jamin:Was that? Tell me all aboutAlex Berger:That. It was great. But so essentially it's a six week every Saturday, all day, every Saturday college course on how to run a show. And it's run by Jeff Melvoin, who's a really seasoned showrunner, and Carol Kirschner, who's been working in the business forever. And then they bring in John Wells is usually a big part of the program and they bring in really heavy hitter showrunners all the way down to people who were in the program last year and then got a show on the year. And they're like, bill and Ted when they come back at the time Machine and Bill and Ted's, and they're like, you're in for a crazy journey. And so it's really cool to hear from all of those people and they focus one day is on writing, one day is on post one day on production. And what I learned from that was having been on staffs for something like 250 episodes of tv, I've learned basically all the things you can do in terms of book learning to run a show.But the last 20%, you can't learn until you're there. Sort of like if you read a hundred books about swimming, you kind of know how to swim, but if you dropped out of a helicopter ocean, you're going to have to figure it out and you're going to be drowning while you're doing it. And literally, I don't know if this was your experience when you guys had it, but every other show I've talked to says nothing fully prepares you for it. So I have a couple shows in development right now, and if you told me that they were to go, I think the first feeling would be utter terror and like, okay, let's do it. Let's go. This is the time to do it. And I've run a lot of writers' rooms and stuff like that, but I've never actually had the keys to the castle, soMichael Jamin:Interesting. Right. Okay, so you've run the room, you've been breaking stories, you're in charge of that. Now time in terms of tell me about the short run is problem You apply, how do you get in?Alex Berger:You have to be recommended by somebody and applied and they want someone, they're trying to find people who are the next shows up. And so people in the program have a pilot that's already been shot and that's already ordered a series, but they don't know how to run a show. You people who've worked in features or worked in writing novels who are transitioning into television. So all the production stuff to them is totally new. And then you have lot of people like me who sort came up as staff writer, story editor and just worked their way up the ranks who've been around for a while, who just haven't taken that next step, who want to know more about what it's like to run a show. I loved it. First of all, it was like being in college, man, it was just absorbing material and taking notes at a frantic pace and reading that they recommended. But it was just so interesting to hear. It's like this, your podcast is so great because you could hear people speak, but these are people who are specifically targeted at the demographic of you're a co eep and you're about to run a show. Here's what you need to know.Michael Jamin:And so you don't pay for this, right? Or youAlex Berger:Do, the guild pays for it and the studios pay for it. It's a phenomenal program.Michael Jamin:And then it's so interesting. And then, alright, so then how big of a cohort, how big of a group isAlex Berger:It? 30. And it's a bummer because these days it's been on Zoom and so you don't really get to the year. I did it in 2017 or 2018. And so I got to know those folks and they were sort of, yeah, again, my cohort and three quarters of them are running shows and everybody else's EPS or eps, running rooms. It's a very fun dynamic to have a group.Michael Jamin:What are they teaching you? I'm so curious as what they teach you. I bet there's stuff I don't know. And we've done three shows. What are they teaching you about post that you were surprised?Alex Berger:The overwhelming, the first thing they tell you when you walk in the door is quality scripts on time. The bug that they gave me, the showrunner program, quality scripts on time, and that was basically the theme of it was being efficient, being and knowing when to cut your losses and say move on. And knowing when to say this isn't good enough. And so for posts, it's like, are you the type of person who wants to be in post for 10 hours a day? That's fine, but then you need to have somebody who's going to be overrunning the room, or do you want the writer who produced the episode to do the first and the second cut? And then you do the last cut and they bring in editors and they talk, editors tell you about what they want to hear. A lot of things that I'd been in post a lot before I was in that room and then editors were telling me things that I was doing that annoyed the crap out of them. And I was like, oh, little thing like what? Snapping, when you say cut there,Michael Jamin:Oh,Alex Berger:That annoys.Michael Jamin:That annoys them. It's like a dogAlex Berger:Thing. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of editors, some editors want line notes. Some editors want you to say, this scene doesn't feel funny enough, I'm not getting the comedy. And then they'll say, okay, let me take another swing at it. And you need to feel like, is this the type of editor that wants to do it on their own or that type of showrunner that wants to do that. But broadly speaking, it's essentially a leadership training program. The nuts and bolts stuff with all stuff that I had seen up close being a lieutenant on a show, there are a lot of little tips that I picked up here and there and when I get a show, I will go back to my notebook and frantically look through it, but it's mostly about how do you lead, how do you manage, how do you fire people? How do you delegate? How do you tell people that they're not doing a good enough job but give 'em a second chance? Interesting. They bring a lot of directors in, stuff like that.Michael Jamin:What was the last thing youAlex Berger:Said? How to interview a director? How to interview director. A big director came in and talked to you. Here's some questions you should ask when you're interviewing. Here's a great one that they said. They said, when you're interviewing a director, ask if you're the showrunner and you're interviewing somebody who's coming in to do an episode of your show, ask the director, do you cook? And if so, are you a person who uses a recipe or do you like to improvise? And there's no right answers to that, right? But if you cook and you're the person who is going to measure out the exact number of grams of flour and the exact number of grams of sugar, that's kind of how you're going to approach directing. You're going to come in with a shot list, you're going to be going to stay on time, you're going to make sure that you move the set along. And if you're the person who likes to kind of throw a little salt to throw a little sugar, you might be a little more improvisational. I say you might be a little more, more. There's little things like that that are like how to dig in on this with those people.Michael Jamin:Now I'm learning. What else can you share with me thatAlex Berger:Might be helpful? I can get my notebook you,Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.I remember when we're running Glen Martin, which is the first show we ran a lot of this, and you probably weren't even aware of this, A lot of it was me. If I was at the board or whatever, it was me like, okay, I want to make sure I'm not losing the room. I want to make sure everyone, no one's losing focus. And I think part of that was make a decision even if it's a bad one because you can lose the room if you can't pull the trigger. You know what I'm saying? It's so frustrating. You guysAlex Berger:Did a good job with that. And then I think that decisiveness, I think is actually one of the most important qualities in the showrunner, but also willingness to admit you were wrong if you made a decision and moved on and then a day later you realize you were wrong. You have to and say, I made the wrong decision. And one of the things I've learned running that I've really tried to do when I'm running a room is if there's an idea floating around that I hate, but it's getting energy and it's getting excitement, I try not to step on it until it either burns out on its own or it's reached a critical mass and I'm like, look, I think this is not going to work, but let's talk it out because there's nothing worse as having come up on staffs. And this is one of the most valuable things when you've been a staff writer and a story editor as opposed to getting your own show as the first thing that happens to you is you know how demoralizing it is when everybody's super excited about something now it's not going to work. It's so demoralizing. Yes, A lot of times you think it's not going to work. You just sit there back and listen for 20 minutes and you're like, oh, actually, you know what? There is a version of this that'll work if I just add this one thing. It's an organism and you're leading an organism and it's very hard. You guys did a great, and you guys are a team, which is even harder because you've got to read each other's minds aboutThis works.Michael Jamin:You bring a good point. I remember one time, so when Glen Martin, I would go, I would direct the actors on Wednesdays or whatever and see would be running the room, and I remember coming back at the end of a long day directing, come back to the room and you guys had made a lot of progress on the script and everyone's excited. Everyone's excited about this idea and you guys pitched it to me. I wasn't getting it. I didn't get it. I was like, I didn't want to shit on it because I could tell everyone was so excited about it. And so I just kept on asking questions just to explain it to me so that I would get on board.Alex Berger:That's a really hard part is and because I've never been the actual showrunner, I've never been the one, I would be like, I'm sorry we're vetoing this. A lot of times what I would do, because I was a number two, was if I hated something, if I left the room and then I came back and I hated something, I'd be like, look, I'm not totally on board with this idea, but let's give it its day in short and let's pitch it to the showrunner. And I would try, when I would pitch it to the showrunner be to not give away which side I was on or to say, look, here's one side of the argument, here's the other side of the argument. But when it's ultimately up to you, it is hard because I always analogize it to in Family Feud when the first four people give their answer and then that last person has to give the final answer and they want to go against the rest of the family. It's a hard thing to do. You're wrong.Michael Jamin:Yeah,Alex Berger:I guess, I don't know. What was that experience like for you? Did you feel like it was like you had to balance? What was your favorite idea versus losing another 10 people's morale?Michael Jamin:It wasn't even about my favorite idea. It was more like I just want to make sure if sea's on board than I trust, I trust him. But it's also like I wish I can remember what the episode was. It just didn't make anyAlex Berger:Sense to me. No, I remember that a couple times. Every show I've ever been on has had that. Every show I've ever, the showrunners left the room, the room gets excited about, something comes back in and it's not what they want, it's just part of show running. The value of having a staff that's been together for a while is the longer the staff has been together, the more you can say, oh, secret and Michael are going to hate this. We shouldn't even this path. Versus early on, you're going down a million paths you don't know. But once you get to know the showrunner, you kind of get to know what they like and what they don't like.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There was another idea that we had in that, I don't remember what we were all on board, but Seaver wasn't on board. It was something crazy.Alex Berger:Oh, I think it was the radio episode and there was something about wires or no wires, and they weren't recording the music the whole time,Michael Jamin:Who wasn't recording music.Alex Berger:Glen went to, you got to cut this out of the podcast.Michael Jamin:No one's going to care. ButAlex Berger:It was like there were a lot of room bits that I think that's the problem with room bits is they take on a life of their own and then they're an inside joke. And if the runner comes in and there's a room bit in the script, it's an inside joke. It just doesn't work. You weren't there for the beginning of it, which is a good sign that it's not a good story because the audience wasn't there for it either. But I think it was Glen becomes a radio producer named Stacey Rappaport.Michael Jamin:Yes.Alex Berger:His wife was also named Stacey Rappaport. Yes. And I know he works for Stacey Rappaport. And anyway, the whole time it was the, you guys were doing the Brady Bunch, Johnny Bravo episode basically as aMichael Jamin:Yeah,Alex Berger:Remember the debate was like, were they actually recording by the way? I will say again, you can cut this out early, but it's not relevant at all. But I grew up watching the Brady Bunch for whatever reason, even though I'm 10 years younger than you guys. And that was number one reference that you guys talked about. So I did feel like at least I got those references.Michael Jamin:Oh, it's so funny. I remember that. I remember because I think I was the one who pitched the name Stacey Rappaport.Alex Berger:I remember because I had a friend named StaceyMichael Jamin:Rappaport. Oh really? That's so funny. It was just a man's name that the joke was that Glen was going to choose a new identity for himself and he chooses a woman's name.Alex Berger:What have you gone back and just watched full episodes of the show?Michael Jamin:No. And everyone, people want to know about. People ask me that a lot. I don't touch. I should. I love that show, but I don't touch anything that I've written. I just don't. It's over and I don't know why, but you doAlex Berger:Just not even about Glen Martin. That is an interesting thing about writers is whether they want to go back. I go back and watch stuff and I hate it because I'm like, but because Glen Martin was not really mine. It was such an organism of the room. I laugh when I go back and watch it except the one I wrote, which I don't like.Michael Jamin:Oh my God. We had some fun in that show. But okay, so when you take, I have so many questions for you. When you were young, when you were a kid, did you want to be a writer? I know TimeAlex Berger:Know was a profession. I loved television. I was a youngest kid. I was raised by the Cosby Show and the Brady Bunch and G I F. And my idea of a family was basically what those families were probably to go back, rethink the Cosby one. And then even in college, I interned at Saturday Night Live and late night with Conan O'Brien back when he was on, which were fantasy camp, especially the s and l one was truly a dream come true. And it still didn't occur to me that it was a profession that I could go do. I was go to law school and then a buddy of mine, we were in Jerry's Subs and Pizza, which is an East coast person you probably remember. And we were sitting there talking about what we're going to do and he's like, like I said, I'm going to go to LA and be a writer. And I said, how do you do that? And he said, someone writes this stuff, why couldn't it be us? And it just gave me this epiphany of like, oh yeah, everybody who's out there as a writer at some point wasn't a writer and just got out there and learned how to do it. And so we all went out together and we kind of got our start.Michael Jamin:Did your friend become a writer too?Alex Berger:Yeah, we all ended up creating a show together. So the earliest thing that we did was we were on the high school debate team together and we walked into National Lampoon, which at the time was doing low budget cable programming, and the head creative guy there just made fun of my resume the entire time and made fun of debate. And then by the end of it said, there's a show here. And so we came, pitched him a show called Master Debaters that was a debating society, and we ended up getting to make, it was like our film school. I knew nothing about how to make a TV show and that one, I was throwing the keys to the castle. I was casting it, writing it, producing it. I was in it, posting it with every crisis. But it was so low stakes because the budgets were tiny and they were in syndicated cable stations and college campuses. No one would watch me. So I got to learn by doing and I loved it. It was great.Michael Jamin:Interesting. And then, all right, so then you became a writer and then you just kept on writing. I guess mean it's not an easy path, but you've made a really pretty good name for yourself over the years.Alex Berger:Yeah, I mean, thank you. It was a winding path when I came out, I thought for a minute I might want to be a development executive. I read a book by this guy, Brandon Tartikoff, who used to run N B C called The Last Great. It was like basically made it out to be, you're sitting in your room and the smartest people in the world come and tell you what TV show ideas they have, and then you pick the eight of them and pick the order in America Shears. And so I worked in development for a minute and I was not what it was like at all, and I was miserable and I was jealous of all the writers who were coming in. So I said, that's the job I want. And so I quit. WhatMichael Jamin:Was it I didn't know you worked at VO for? I wasAlex Berger:Assistant. I was an assistant in development at N B C.Michael Jamin:What was it like then?Alex Berger:It's very busy and not as creative as I wanted to be. I actually really enjoyed the conversations I had with the executives when it wasn't time to do my job and it was just time to talk about tv. But the actual job I was doing, I was terrible at, I mean, it was a lot of keeping track of who was calling, and I'm an absentminded first, butMichael Jamin:That you're an assistant. I mean, surelyAlex Berger:You, but it's a long time before your branded Tartikoff, right? Almost everybody else under branded Tartikoff has a lot of business responsibilities to do. And it wasn't, that's not how my brain works. My brain needs more free time. I think if I worked at a place that was smaller that was incubating three or four shows, I probably would've enjoyed it more. But we had 50 comedies and 50 dramas in development, and I was trying to get of all of them and who was calling and the letterhead changing and all this stuff. And it was just like I was not good at it. I mean, my boss even said to me one day, he said, you're a very smart guy. Why are you not very good at this? And we had a nice conversation about that. But the main thing was the writers that came in that I was, can I get you a coffee?Can I get you a tea? Can I get you a Coke? I was so jealous of them. Door would close to the pitch, and I just wanted to be in there listening to. And so I realized I should follow that. And so I didn't last that long. I left like eight months and I quit. I at the time had been, I think had a couple of writing jobs, like smaller writing jobs lined up that show Master Debaters had been optioned of VH one. So we were writing a pilot for VH one and a couple of their small writing jobs. So I went to go do those and then got back in the beginning of the line as an assistant, I was a writer's assistant on a show, and then I was an assistant to a showrunner and then I stop.Michael Jamin:So it's a brave move for you to leave that behind in.Alex Berger:It was definitely, I mean, I had some stuff lined up, but it was definitely a risk, but I just knew it wasn't the right, I was in the wrong place. But it's interesting, it was an incredible learning experience. I knew how development work from the inside, and I still think I know more about what's actually going on at the network than a lot of my peers because I was on the other side. And then the folks I met who are the other assistants to the other executives are now all executive vice presidents of networks or presidents of networks or I met my agent because he was an assistant to an agent that used to call, and then he signed me while he was still a coordinator. One of the people on that hall now became the president of Fox, another one who I've dealt with a lot became the president of N B C. I met a ton of great folks through that who have become friends and allies over the years, and I sold Joe to,Michael Jamin:But okay, so it's probably changed lot since you were in assistant that was probably 20 somethingAlex Berger:Years ago, 19 yearsMichael Jamin:Ago. So what is it like then that we don't understand?Alex Berger:I think the main thing that I didn't understand, and this has for sure changed and certainly in cable and streaming is just a volume. They are not spending as much time thinking about your script as you are by definition. But in development, there are literally 40 to 50 scripts at least back then on both on comedy and trauma. And so my boss, who was in charge of both has a hundred scripts to keep track of. So he was very smart and could make a judgment very quickly about a script, but he would read it once, sometimes read it again, and then he was making a judgment about whether it was a show. So as a writer now I know they're reading fast, they're reading it at three 30 in the morning, or they're reading it on the plane, I've got to grab attention fast, I've got to hook you in. I cannot lean, oh, the great twist, wait till the Great Twist. It's on page 55. And when I'm pitching, it's the same thing my boss said to me, I hear 300 pitches a year. I typically hear about five ideas I haven't heard before. The other 95 I've heard before. It's about take, it's about the writer, it's about their passion. And so when I go and pitch an idea, the substance of the idea is the second most important thing. And my connection to it and why it has to be me is the first most important.Michael Jamin:And that's the hard part. I feel that's the hard part because usually you think of an idea, you can't really, I don't know, you're a hundred percent right. They always, they want to know why are you the only one in the world who can write this idea truthfully? It's like a lot of times you're not a lot of times like, well, this is the characters we created. It's a funny situation, but there's probably a lot of people who could write this idea.Alex Berger:I think that what I have seen, and I've never done this, but I know folks who have is, I knew a writer once who his sort of why me paragraph was, I just run a show for a bunch of years. I came off of running that show and I didn't know what I wanted to do next and I had an identity crisis. And so it got to the idea of identity crises and here's a spy show, an action spy show, but at the center of it as a character going through an identity crisis. So it's notMichael Jamin:GrewAlex Berger:Up and my dad was a spy, and therefore sometimes it's emotional or sometimes I had this interaction with a guy on the subway and I couldn't stop thinking about it. And it led me to this show. And sometimes by the way, you retrofitted sometimes you already come up to the show and then you've got to come up with that first paragraph that's retrofitted and sometimes often it feels organic even though it was come up with thatMichael Jamin:Word. That's so interesting because I'm glad you said that to me. It almost sounds, it gives me some soce knowing that, because a lot of times we'll say, okay, this is why we're the only ones, and this is from seabird's idea home life or my home life, and then it doesn't sell. And you're like, well, I don't know what to do now. But you're actually broadening it out into a thematically, it's more personal to you. It's not necessarily a dynamic. It's more like,Alex Berger:Here's how I think about it. I think that, and I could be wrong, and by the way, it's different in a comedy because you've got to make 'em laugh in a comedy, and I know certain comedy executives don't laugh, but for the most, if you're funny in the room, they're thinking, okay, I want to be in business with these pets, but in drama, are there twists and turns? Am I hooked on this? Is this going to fit with something that we have on the air? Do we have something similar? But I always think what they're going to remember when they've heard six, they hear six to eight a day, and then at the end of the week they go tell their bosses about the ones that they bought. So what they're going to remember is, oh my God, you'll never believe the story this guy told about the time that he was held hostage on the subway, or you'll never believe that, or a cool twist or a cool character. They're not ever going to remember the third beat of the pilot, or when pitch episode ideas, here's soMichael Jamin:Interesting.Alex Berger:I think you need that stuff to be in there, but what they're going to remember, it's like when you walk into a house, when you're looking for a house, you remember, oh, I was dazzled by the kitchen and the master bedroom had the fullest bathroom and yeah, yeah, it had five bedrooms and five baths, which is what we need. But it felt like this when I walked in. It's like, how do they feel? That's another, I'm sorry to ramble, butMichael Jamin:No,Alex Berger:For drama. I think in a pitch, if you can make the executives feel how the show is going to make them feel, that's a successful pitch to me. Comedy's a little different, I think. ButMichael Jamin:Interesting. I feel like I'm learning a lot from you actually, because I mean, honestly, we'll sell shows and we'll not sell shows.Alex Berger:We're learning all that time from you guys for 40 episodes on the murder.Michael Jamin:But a lot of this is, like I said, we will sell a show or we won't sell a show, and I won't know why. I don't know. I'm not sure why this one sold this one, the other one didn't sell. I can, but that'sAlex Berger:Why I really don't like Zoom pitches because you can't. I love, that's actually my favorite part. I think it comes from, like I said, I was on the debate team in high school and college, and I loved trying to persuade someone who was not necessarily on my side at the beginning that I'm right. And I viewed every pitch as a miniature debate. I'm debating against the person who says, don't buy this. And I love the feeling of like, oh, I've got them hooked, and they're now, they are going to buy the show as long as it continues to go on this pace. And I hate the feeling of, I think they've checked out. And actually when I've memorized a pitch, when I think they've checked out, I'm talking, but my internal monologue is, well, I guess we didn't sell it to Fox. All right, well, if we can sell it to Fox, we can go to a B, C. Because I'm sort of like, I've moved on.Michael Jamin:How much off book are you have notes or not?Alex Berger:I've developed this method that I got from this guy, Martin Garra, who I've worked for eight or nine years for some blind spot, and now on Quantum Leap, it's different, but I love it, which is, it's different on Zoom, but when we go back to in-person pitches, what he does is he brings in his laptop and he puts it on the table in front of him and it acts as a teleprompter. And so he's looking up at you making eye contact and occasionally looking down. And then he is got a remote that flips page to page and the script is there word for word. So if you're like, oh shit, I'm about to get to the part that I always mess up, then you just look down and read for a minute and they know you've written this. It's not like no one is under the illusion that you walked in and RIFed for 20 minutes off theMichael Jamin:Topic. Does he do this in person or on Zoom?Alex Berger:Both. On Zoom, it's so easy because you can have your screen, but in person, I thought, oh, they're going to think it's offputting. But because I was practiced, I got to the point where 70% of it was eye contact and the laptop was there as the security one did.Michael Jamin:And what program is he using? That's a teleprompterAlex Berger:Work.Michael Jamin:Oh, so you're just scrolling. Oh, you're just clicking.Alex Berger:There's this Bluetooth remote that he uses that I was now in my drawer, and it's just you click and it's to the nextMichael Jamin:Page. You have a Bluetooth remote that works on your lap. I didn't even know this such a thing. I'm learning so much from you Burger.Alex Berger:Oh, you know what? I've lost it. Oh, here. Yeah, so it's like a little U S B that plugs into the back of your computer, and then you're just like, you click, click, click and it's, you look like you're giving its head talk it 5% easy. And I actually think in a comedy pitch, it might come off as too dorky, but for a drama it's like, I'm going to tell you a story. I'm going to deliver a pitch. And I wrote it. And the reason I find it useful is a lot of times when you're developing with the pod and the studio and then also the non-writing show runner, so many Sunday night, you're getting notes for a Monday morning pitch and stuff's changed. So if I get to the section that just changed, I might look down a little bit moreMichael Jamin:Interest. So I was going to say, are you going in mostly with pods these days for people who don't know that they're producers on the overall deals at studios, but is that how it works in dramas as well?Alex Berger:I don't think I'm going to show on the air anymore without an entourage. So when I was on Blind Spot, it was produced by Greg Ante and I did a couple pieces of development with him and then also with Blind Spot. I just think there's the business side of it, which is that these networks want to be in business with their 800 pound gorillas and the not. So if you walk in with one of them, even if it's my vision a hundred percent, and it's my personal story, the fact that this brand is behind it really helps. And then I also, I actually enjoy the process of crafting the idea with smart people. I don't want to work with a pod who's annoying and gives dumb notes or a studio who does that. But every pod I've ever worked with, if I'm stuck on an idea, I'll say, Hey, can we hop on the phone for half an hour and work out this story problem? You guys have each other so you can get in a room and hash out a story problem. But I need to talk. I cannot think through anyMichael Jamin:Interesting,Alex Berger:And we'll work it out. Oh,Michael Jamin:So you'll really use them as a resource. It's so interesting.Alex Berger:I mean, this guy, Martin Garrow who runs Blind Spot Quantum Leap, I've developed him a bunch of times and he's a writer.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it's differentAlex Berger:Stuff is acting as a pod. But I can call him and we have such a shorthand, we've broken 150 episodes a week, butMichael Jamin:That's different because he's a writer. He is not, I mean, he's a writer, is writer producer, but he's really aAlex Berger:Writer. So it's Greg Ante. I like working with folks who are on the creative things, and I've worked with producers who weren't writers, but could be because they're a creative, the worst part of that development is when someone gives you a note and they don't realize, oh, that's going to unravel. They think it's two lines, but it actually unravel all. Whereas when you work with people who've made a lot of tv, they're like, look, I know that this blows everything up to do this one little thing, but here's why I think it's better. Or Hey, they gave a huge note. Here's easy fix. It's only two lines.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I mean, that's so interesting. You're absolutely right. There's a huge difference between, I think between working with a producer, producer and a writer producer, because the writers, they just know what's going to unravel everything. I don't know. Yeah, that's ProducersAlex Berger:Are good for like, oh, you know what? Who'd be great for this is this actress. And they make the call and they're good.I find that you find everybody's in this business, they're good at something. Nobody who's come to this business and is just dashing a check. Well, probably not true, but the people that I try to find work with are people who are in this business smart. And even if they're not totally up on exactly what I wanted to do, fix the script, they have something that they're really good at that I want to use. So even if it's, there's one person at this company who's mostly the production person have a really good idea about like, Hey, if we shot this in Buffalo, we could do this.Michael Jamin:Right. Interesting. Wow. I think I've learned a lot from you. Before we conclude, you want to write drama withAlex Berger:Me? Let's go that. Let's talk about drama.Michael Jamin:I think I'm going to get into the drama business with you. I think you're going to be my pod. What advice do you have for young writers? You must have something to Wise to say.Alex Berger:Yeah, I mean, I probably don't have anything wise to say, but I'm happyMichael Jamin:To. Or how are they breaking in the business?Alex Berger:It's funny. The answer was so different 10 years ago to four years ago. It changed rapidly, and it's very different now because of the writer's strike. So if you're talking about what should I be doing right now, if I want to break in? I was just talking to a writer today and my advice to her was, just use this time to write. It's not a good time to try to get a producer attached or a showrunner attached or an agent. It's a good time to just be writing and really writing diligently. And then this is over. And in general, my advice is get a job in the industry, even if it's as an assistant. If you can't get a job as an assistant in a room, get a job as an assistant in post or get a job as a PA on set, just get into the room. Then just keep building a network and talking to everybody. And when your cousin comes and says, you know what? I used my college roommate, I think as a writer, I don't know what he take them up on all of those opportunities because you never know what's going to result in something. The first three jobs I got were from general meetings that I didn't want to take because actually two of them were from people. My mom had metParties in Washington dc but they were another assistant who was leaving their job and happened to open up. And then the last thing I would say is, I think the thing that people don't do as much of it that they should do is engage in the continuing education piece of this. So your listeners to your podcast are obviously trying to learn how to write, and that's important. There's a lot of other good podcasts out there. There's Deadline Hollywood, which everybody should be reading every single day. There's business podcasts like The Town and the Business and Fresh Air that people should be listening to understand the macro pieces of their business. So often you get people who come out here and they have

Dave sits down with Glen Martin, a movie writer, director, and producer.

Phil LaMarr is an actor known for being one of the original cast members of MadTV, Pulp Fiction, and his voice acting roles in Samurai Jack, Futurama, Beavis and Butthead, Family Guy, Teen Titans Go! and a host of other animated series.Show NotesPhil Lamarr on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0482851/Phil Lamarr on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/phillamarr/Phil Lamarr on TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@phillamarrFree Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TranscriptionPhil LaMarr:I was developing an animated show based on a friend of mine's web comic called Goblins. Okay. And my partner, Matt King and I, we are both performers, but we adapted the comic into a script. And I called a bunch of my voice actor friends, cuz we were, we were gonna make a trailer, you know, to bring these, you know, comic characters to life Yeah. In animation. And it was funny cuz Matt and I are actors. We had, you know, written the script and we'd acted out these scenes. And so in our heads, we, we thought we knew exactly how they'd sound. But then we brought in amazing Billy West, Maurice LaMarr. Mm-Hmm. , Jim Cummings. Mm-Hmm. Steve Bloom, Jennifer. And it was funny because when they performed the scenes we had written, they took it to a whole other level. Right. Beyond what existed in our, in our heads. Right. Like, oh my God, they made it so much better than I even imagined it could be.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I, another, another. Cool. I got another cool episode. I, I was so excited about this. I, I tri over my own words. I am here with actor writer Phil LaMarr and this guy. All right. So I'm on his IMDB page cuz he going through his credits. Phil, I'm not joking. It's taking me too long to scroll through IMD,B to get through all your credits. It's nuts how much you work. But, so I'm gonna give you real fast an introduction and then we'll talk more about, what're gonna talk about but okay. So this guy does a lot of, a ton of voiceovers. I guess I think we met on King of the Hill and I know we worked together on Glenn Glenn Martin DDS, but fu you know, him from Futurama.From Beavis and Butthead family guy the Great North. All every single adult animated show, a ton of kids shows Star Bob's Burgers. That's adult, of course. Rick and Morty Bob Burgers, Bob's Burger's movie as well. I mean, I'm going through all your stuff here. It's nuts. You were a writer performer on Mad TV for many years. Mm-Hmm. . And I think the pro, I'm sorry to say this, but the, the coolest role that everyone knows you, that you maybe you get recognized most from. Right. We, you know what it is, is you were, you were in Pulp Fiction and you had your head blown off in the back of the car. And I remember watching like, oh my God, they killed Phil Phil LaMarr:.Michael Jamin:I mean, how awesome was that role? Oh man. But so Phil, thank you for doing this. Welcome, welcome to this. I want to talk all about your amazing career. But now tell me, so how did you get into acting? When did you decide you wanted to be an actor?Phil LaMarr:Well, it's funny because there are a couple of double steps in terms of how I started being an actor. And when I decided to be an actor and when I got into voiceover, both my first time performing was in eighth grade. My school was doing a production of a book that I loved. I didn't consider myself a performer. Right. It was the phantom toll booth. Right. And there's this little character towards the end of the Phantom toll booth. The senses taker who will take your sense of purpose. Your sense of duty, but he can't take your sense of humor. Right. And I wanted that part. So that's why I went and auditioned. But I wound up getting cast as one of the leads.Michael Jamin:Wow. Okay. AndPhil LaMarr:Opened a show alone on stage under a spotlight doing a two minute monologue.Michael Jamin:Okay. AndPhil LaMarr:It flipped a switch in my head. I'm like, oh, I love this. You were, that's what, so I started, you know, being an actor because I liked to bookMichael Jamin:. Right. But then, but okay. But it's one thing to be acting in as a kid in eighth grade and then to commit your career to it. What, what, what happened next?Phil LaMarr:Well, and it's funny because I didn't consider that a career or what I was doing. It's just, it's fun. Yeah. I get to play well, and also I went to an all boys private school. Yeah. So the time you got to see girls was when you did a playMichael Jamin:. Okay. That makes, now you're, makes sense. Now we know why you're being an actor, .Phil LaMarr:And I wound up graduating and I applied to colleges that had, you know, drama programs, Northwestern nor Carnegie Mellon, Yale University. But I wound up deciding not to go to Carnegie Mellon and I went to Yale. I was like, no, no, I just want to go to college. And I did not decide to pursue acting as a career. I just majored in English. It was on the flight back home to LA I said, you know what, maybe I should pursue this acting thing. I mean, I enjoy it. And you know, some people say I'm pretty good at it. I mean, I either gotta do it now or wait till my mid forties when I have a midlife crisis. Yes.Michael Jamin:But this is Yale undergrad. Yes. Yale's really not for the grad school of the school of drama. But youPhil LaMarr:Go back to thing. Cause when you were an actor and you say you went to Yale, people assume, oh, like Moral Streep and Henry Wiggler. It's like, no, no. I didn't know thatMichael Jamin:. But so after you got outta college and you got outta, we went to Yale and there was some pressure on you to are they Princeton over there? We're gonna continue, we'll continue our, we'll set aside our differences long enough to have this conversation. But so, but after college you're like, okay, I got a big fancy Yale degree and I'm gonna become an actor.Phil LaMarr:Right. And, you know, had I decided to be a comedy writer with a Harvard degree, that would've beenMichael Jamin:Yes. That would make sense.Phil LaMarr:A career path that made sense. Right. As a Yale, there were no famous Yales as writers or producers or anything. There were a handful of, you know, drama school actors. Right. But again, I didn't go to that drama school. So I'm like, okay.Michael Jamin:Yeah. There's no connect. People talk about the connections. No, there's no connection. Just because you, there's no inroad. Just cuz you went to Yale, you know, to No,Phil LaMarr:Yeah. No. The the only famous undergraduate actors at that time in the eighties were two women who were famous before they came to Yale, Jennifer Beals and Jodi Foster.Michael Jamin:Right. Exactly. Exactly. All right. So then you made this commitment to, or this, this leap. How long your parents must have been thrilled , how long before you started getting work and how did you start getting work, getting work?Phil LaMarr:Well, and, and this is another one of the double steps, Uhhuh I, when I made this decision, I already had my SAG card.Michael Jamin:How did you get that?Phil LaMarr:Because back in high school, a friend of my mother's worked for NBC Uhhuh. And I think my mother had dragged her to see a couple of my plays. And so she said, Hey, we're doing this cartoon and we're gonna use real kids for the kids' voices. Which back in the eighties was a rare thing. Yeah. And she asked me to, to come in and audition for it. And I got a job on the Mr. T cartoon in the mid eighties.Michael Jamin:Oh, wow. AndPhil LaMarr:That got me my union card. Now I did not, again, did not consider this a career path. I it was just a cool summer job.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Now, the thing is, cause I hear this a lot. People say to me, yeah, I, I can do a million voices and you could do literally a million voices. I, how do I get into you know, voice acting? And it's like, they don't seem to put the connection that it's not enough that you do voices. You have to know how to act. You have to be a trained, you have to, you know, know, be if you're trained or even better. But you have to know how to perform and act. And so yeah.Phil LaMarr:That's, that's what I always tell people who ask me that question. I say, the first thing you need to know is voice acting the term is a misnomer because the acting comes before the voice.Michael Jamin:Yes. Yes.Phil LaMarr:You know, that's why you have amazing people like Cree Summer, who has a really distinctive speaking voice, but she has the acting ability. Right. To make every character completely different and real. It's the same thing like, you know, a a movie star, it's the same face, but it's always a different character.Michael Jamin:But there's something else that you bring, and I say this because you are a consummate pro. You are truly a pro. It's well for what you bring to that other actors, that non-voice actors, I guess, I don't know what you would call 'em, but have, but what I'm directing a voiceover actor, sometimes if they haven't done avo, a lot of voice acting, they don't realize they're using their face or their body . And, and you say, no, no, no. I, I see you're acting the part I see you're playing mad, but I have to hear it in my ear. And so I don't look at them when I'm directing. I wanna hear it. And Right. And so to talk about that a little bit.Phil LaMarr:Yes, yes. I remember, cuz I started out, you know, even though I had that job in high school, I did not consider it a voice acting career. It was just a, a goofy summer job on a cartoon that nobody I knew watched. So I came home after college and pursued on camera acting and stage mm-hmm. . And so a few years later, actually it was after a several years of Mad TV where we did Claymation pieces and it got me doing multiple characters on mic as opposed to just multiple characters on camera, which I was also doing on Mad tv. And I remember I decided to actively pursue the voice acting thing. Cuz at this point, you know, in the post, you know, early nineties era when cable blew up, voice acting became a job. Right. You know, cuz when we were kids, it was just something that six guys that Mel Blanc and five other dudes Right.Voiced every cartoon of our childhood. Right. You know, Mel Blanc, dos Butler, you know, that was it. But in the nineties, once Nickelodeon had 24 hours of children's programming, there was a lot more cartoon voices. And so like, oh, this could be a path now. And I remember one of my early sessions, I fell into my on camera acting face, face acting mm-hmm. . And they said, okay, Phil, stop. Try it again. Do that line again. Angrier, I did it again. They said, hold on, we're gonna play them both back. And they sounded exactly the same. And I realized what you just said. Right. Oh my God, I just made an angrier face.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:And that's one of the, you know, skills of voice acting the same way that you have singers, singers can, you know, put forth feeling or fun or whatever through their voice.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:You know, dancers do it through their bodies.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:You know. ButMichael Jamin:When you perform, let's say you're doing something on camera, how much thought do you give? Do you, is it, is it just second nature to go, okay, now I can use the rest of my body? Or how much thought do you have to go in between different, you know skill sets, I guess, you know?Phil LaMarr:Well, the, the good thing is, you know, you do have to, you know, get a switch in your head because when you're on stage, it's the exact same job bringing this script to life. But you have to do it with different tools. Right, right. And the same thing when you're doing it on camera. And the same thing when you're doing it on microphone. You have to, you have to gauge. Okay. Cuz you know, you read the script, you see the character, you embody it. Yeah. But then it's how do you communicate it to the audience?Michael Jamin:Right,Phil LaMarr:Right. You know, and it's funny because with voice acting, you know, we learned to run the character through our, our ears. You know, when you see in the old days, you see, you know, announcers doing this. Do you know what that is about? No.Michael Jamin:What what is that?Phil LaMarr:It's because all of us, you know, regular people hear our voices from inside our heads. Right. We're not hearing what other people hear. But when you do this, you are channeling your voice.Michael Jamin:That's whatPhil LaMarr:Mouth into your ear. So you hear what your voice sounds like outside your head.Michael Jamin:Oh, I see. I, that's so funny. I thought they were stopping their ear, but they're not. They're just re redirecting the voice Yeah. Into their ear. Yes. Oh wow. I had no idea.Phil LaMarr:So you can hear the subtlety, you know, because if, if you don't do something with your teeth, you don't hear that inside your head. Yeah. It's only what people hear. But that's something you might want with a character. Right. You know, I always, when I teach workshops, I always try to tell people, like, there are things we hear. There's, it's the same thing with your face. Mm-Hmm. when you want to, you know, express anger. You don't just do your face flat. You, you know. And it's the same thing with if, if there's something about a character, let's say I'm doing this character, but then I see the drawing and the guy's got a big beard. Oh, well let me make him sound, let me make him sound beier.Michael Jamin:Right. Right.Phil LaMarr:Which isn't necessarily true, just growing a beard doesn't change your voiceMichael Jamin:Uhhuh.Phil LaMarr:But there are things that when we hear something, we get the sense of it.Michael Jamin:Right. Do you have a preference now, Kami? Cuz do you have a preference? You work so much in voice acting, but do you have a, do you prefer that overlap? You know, like on camera?Phil LaMarr:No, it's funny cuz you know, at Comic-Con, people will ask, what's your, you walk in so many media, what's your favorite? And the truth of the matter is, and this is what I tell them, it's not about the media, it's about the quality.Michael Jamin:Quality. The writing or, or what Yes.Phil LaMarr:Uhhuh Well, the, the, the quality of the writing, the quality of the directing, the quality of the experience. Because to me, the, the cartoon Samurai Jack, which is I consider a work of art that has more in common with pulp fiction. Right. Than it does with, you know, pound puppies or some like goofy little Saturday morning cartoon that's more focused on selling toys than on actually putting out story.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right, right. But in terms of voice, a I mean, you don't have to get into hair and makeup. You don't have to memorize anything. And that's a whole nother skill as well. Memorizing the, the, the text.Phil LaMarr:Well, but that, that's actually harder because when you work on stage or on camera mm-hmm. , you get time to rehearse.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:You get to practice with a director helping guide you, your people, someone watching you, and you build the character over time. And then you don't have to make it work till the camera says, till they say action.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:But when you're doing voiceover, you're handed a sheet of paper, you're reading words off a page, and you have to bring those to life instantly.Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's exactly. Now do you, cuz when we work together on, on Glen, well we did King Hill first, but on Glen Martin, just so people know you didn't audition, we just, we call you up. Hey, we book you Theor agent, and you come in, you show up, you, you got the job, and you show up. And I remember approaching you saying, okay, Phyllis, the character, I remember the character's name was Rasmus, and the only thing you knew about him was that he had a milky eye. He was like seventies. He had a milky eye. And I go, what voices did you bring ? And you, you, you gave me like three different voices. And I think I said that one a little more gravelly and boom, that was it. You jumped right into it. Exactly. That was it. You're ready to go. . And that was the benefit of direction you got go .Phil LaMarr:Right. See, and we did that in a minute and a half.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil LaMarr:Had we been working on a movie, I would've had to go in for wardrobe, had them try on seven different outfits, had them send you the pictures, , you know, over two weeks. Right. While I was memorizing all the lines for us to come to that conclusion.Michael Jamin:But on most of the voiceover judo, is that how it is? It's just basically they book you for the day and you know, unless you're a regular, they just book you, you come on in and you spend an hour or two, and then that's it. Is that how it works for you? Mostly?Phil LaMarr:Well, ho hopefully. I mean, most of the time you get the script ahead of time, so you get to read the story, know the context. Right. But that's just one episode. You don't have the entire, you know, arc of the story. You know, don't know everything about the, you know, if you're playing the villain about the, the hero. So you learn most of it when you come into the session,Michael Jamin:But then there's another thing that you have to bring to the table, which is a whole, like, you okay, you're an excellent actor, but you also have the, the, when you do these voices, they don't sound like they're coming from you. Like, they sound like they're coming from 10 different people. And so the, how do you, like how do you approach that? How do you making voices that don't sound anything like the, any, any other voice that you do.Phil LaMarr:Well, it varies. I mean, there are, it's funny because now over the years, you know, people will bring up some old character. And I realize, okay, that sounds a little similar to that other one. But I realize it's not about, I used to think when I was younger, starting in voice acting, I used to think it was about no, no. Every voice should not sound anything like the other one. Right. You know? But I realize it's more about embodying the character. And the thing is, you know, these characters are all different. So I need them to, I want them to sound different.Michael Jamin:Right. I don't mean like, like when I first got the King of the Hill, I was shocked when you hear the voices that you've been watching the show forever, and then you see the actress playing, you go, whoa, that voice is coming from that person. That, that doesn't sound anything close to their, like, there's a transformation that you're able to do with your voice by, like, that's a different skill. I mean, forget about even, yes, I know embodying the character, but you're really playing with your vocal chords in a way that almost seems impossible to someone like me.Phil LaMarr:Oh, thank you. Well, I mean, in, it's, it's a, it's a skill set that not everybody has. Like I said, some people just like when on Samurai Jack, I worked with Mako Iwatsu Uhhuh, you know, an older Japanese actor who was an icon. He had starred in movies, starred on Broadway, you know, his name was above the title on a Stephen Sondheim musical. Right. But he had a very distinctive, you know, heavy, very textured, heavily accented voice. And I figured, okay, he's just doing his voice. And I remember there was one episode where they cast him as a secondary character mm-hmm. in the episode. And I remember thinking to myself, oh, Jesus, what are they doing? Uhhuh, his voice is so dis. I mean, that's like casting the rock in two characters in a movie. Right. You know, like, nobody's gonna get fooled. But he blew my mind and taught me a masterclass because what he did was, he did not completely transform his voice, but he acted the second character from a completely different perspective. You know, Lowe's dead, you know, complete, he performed it completely differently than he performed Aku the villain, Uhhuh . And I, and when you watch the episode, you can't tell it's him.Michael Jamin:You can Right. You can't tell.Phil LaMarr:Now, part of that has to do with the art, you know, because you're change your changing your voice, but they're also changing the drawing.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That, that's true. But I wonder how much work do you on your own at home? Like, how much do you think about other voice? Do you pra you go, do you hear a voice and you go, Hey, that's an interesting thing. Maybe I should, you know, do you practice at all? Do you, I don't know. Are you, are you constantly trying to invent new, new voices for yourself?Phil LaMarr:Well, I'm, I'm not a singer, but I've always had an ear. Right. For speech. It, I do a lot of impressions. Uhhuh, , you know, comedically and sometimes just job wise. Actually, weirdly, 10th grade, my second year of acting, I got the part in our, one of our high school plays. We did a production of Play It again, Sam.Michael Jamin:Okay.Phil LaMarr:And in 10th grade, I played Humphrey Bogart .Michael Jamin:Okay.Phil LaMarr:And I spent the entire production trying to do my best impression of Humphrey Bogart. If that plane leaves and you are not on it, you'll regret it. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon. And for the rest of your life. And so I watched a lot of, you know, videotapes of Humphrey Bogart. And I, and I also had to learn how to do that impression and projectMichael Jamin:It Right.Phil LaMarr:In a, in a theater cuz there was no microphone. But I think maybe that helped start me right on the, you know, aping People's Voices thing. Which, when I started doing sketch comedy Right. I leaned into that too. Oh, I'm gonna do a Michael Jackson sketch. You know?Michael Jamin:Right. Cause you, so how is that you're talking about, so that, that brings us to Mad tv. So there goes your, I dunno, how, how did you get that that audition? What did you bring, what did you bring to that audition, you know, for yourself?Phil LaMarr:Well, I, when I was in college I was part of a improv comedy group that started and I loved it, you know, having been taught that the, you know, the key to drama is conflict, but then being introduced in your late teens, early twenties to this concept of Yes.Michael Jamin:And, and yes. And yeah.Phil LaMarr:You know, improv is collaborative theater, make your partner look good. Right. Work together, you know, all of this very positive energy. It's like, huh, wow. This isn't just about performance. This is a great life philosophy. Yeah. So after graduation, and I came home to LA and I started taking classes at the Groundlings Theater mm-hmm. , the sketch, comedy and improv group. And, and I did that not for the career, but because I wanted improv back in my life.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:And doing improv that led me into sketch comedy and writing.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:Because that's what the ground wings do. It's like, okay, that's a great improv. Write it down.Michael Jamin:Right. .Phil LaMarr:Yeah. Now do that character again. Come up with another scene for him.Michael Jamin:And so that's what you, you brought to the audition, like what, three different characters or something?Phil LaMarr:Y well, by the time Mad TV came around, I had been doing sitcoms, you know, from the early nineties to the mid nineties. This was 95. Right. So I went to audition for mad TV and the people at Fox had seen me guest on a bunch of shows. Right. And in fact, I went to audition for Mad TV in what they call second place because I had done a pilot for Fox right before Mad. So it's funny because I went in there thinking, no, this pilot is gonna, is amazing. We're gonna be the new Barney Miller. Alright, fine agents, I'll go for this sketch thing, whatever. I've been doing Sketch for six years, but whatever. And so I went in and they said, okay, bring in some, some of your characters.Michael Jamin:What Century is calling ah, . That's your phone from 1970, right?Phil LaMarr:?Michael Jamin:Or is it an alarm clock?Phil LaMarr:Ah, no, it's, I forgot toMichael Jamin:What's your phone? It's your iPhone.Phil LaMarr:It's my agent calling. Oh, you, you don't need to talk to them.Michael Jamin:That's Hollywood.Phil LaMarr:Yes.Michael Jamin:I can't believe your agent actually calls you. Mine doesn't call .Phil LaMarr:Alright, let me, let me go back.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Michael Jamin:We're gonna put all this in. This is all funny. .Phil LaMarr:Well anyway, I went to audition for Mad TV having done several years at the Groundlings and having been voted into the main company of the Groundlings, alongside Jennifer Coolidge. So youMichael Jamin:Were perform Oh, so you were, that's great. So you were performing regularly on stage. Yeah. Okay.Phil LaMarr:So, so sketch comedy was solidly in my backMichael Jamin:Pocket. Yeah.Phil LaMarr:And, you know, I'd been, you know, I'd finally started making a living as an actor. I didn't have to do my day job, you know, just doing guest spots and whatnot. And I went in there without any sense of desperation. I don't need this.Michael Jamin:Right. I'vePhil LaMarr:Already got this pilot. And they said, okay, bring us your characters and a couple of impressions and we'll show you a couple of our sketches. You know, so there were three steps to each audition, Uhhuh. And it's funny because later after I got the job, I talked to the showrunner and he said, oh man, you were so relaxed. We loved it.Michael Jamin:Oh wow.Phil LaMarr:You know, cuz I remember when we had a, a callback and there was somebody from the studio. This woman was sitting there like this. And I said, oh, I'm sorry. Did I wake youMichael Jamin:? And then wow. I mean, good for you. And then, but what became of that pilot, it didn't go to seriesPhil LaMarr:The other. No.Michael Jamin:Boy, had you known that ? IPhil LaMarr:Know. Well, and when we, when we got the call back from Mad tv, I'm like, what the heck? And might have said, yeah. Yeah. somebody at Fox said, don't worry about the second position.Michael Jamin:Right. Oh wow. Wow. . So, right. So you did that for a number of years. And then, and what, what along the way, when did pulp Fiction occur during this?Phil LaMarr:Actually I did Pulp Fiction before Mad tv.Michael Jamin:Okay.Phil LaMarr:It's funny cuz the first episode of Mad TV had a Pulp fiction parody in it. AndMichael Jamin:Did you play yourself?Phil LaMarr:Yes. They pitched me playing myself. OhMichael Jamin:My God, it was so fun. I mean it's such a classic role. I mean, do, do you, and does, do people want to talk to you about that all the time?Phil LaMarr:Not, not really. What I, I find that people only bring up Pulp Fiction around the time when a new Tarantino movie comes out.Michael Jamin:Okay.Phil LaMarr:But I mean, there are some people who, you know, are big fans of it. But the funniest thing is there will be a friend, somebody I've known for several years, but it's the first time they've watched Pulp Fiction since we met.Michael Jamin:Right. OhPhil LaMarr:My God, Phil. I didn't realize that was you.Michael Jamin:That's so great. I mean, so Right. Just to remind people again. So that was a scene was, it was Samuel Jackson and and John Travolta. They, yes. I guess the, the pla that plot line was a bunch of like straight-laced kind of college kids, kind of up, you know, they, you know, good kids who probably made one bad decision. Right. But they weren't troublemakers. They were good kids. And then they owed money and then, and then I guess they, you know, so they shoot, I guess they come into the apartment Right. And they they wind up shooting up the place and they take you, I guess they, they're gonna take you to the big guy, you're hostage and then he, you're in the back of the car and they got a gun trained on you and it hits a bump and they accidentally blow your head off . Right.Phil LaMarr:Well, well actually, the backstory that Quent and I talked about is that cuz my character is Marvin, he's the kid who gets his brains blown out in the back of the car. Right. but we decided that the story was Jules Uhhuh knew somebody who knew Marvin and arranged for Marvin to, that's why Marvin gets up and opens the door.Michael Jamin:Okay. AndPhil LaMarr:Lets them in. He's on their side.Michael Jamin:Oh, is that right? Is that, I should watch that again. I don't, I didn't pick that up at all.Phil LaMarr:And so he's not, they're not taking him as a hostage. Cause actually, Sam's like, how many, because John asked him how many are in there? It's like, well, there's, oh,Michael Jamin:There'sPhil LaMarr:Five plus our guy.Michael Jamin:Oh, I gotta watch that again. I missed that. Okay. It's been a while. Okay. So,Phil LaMarr:So the idea is that Jules knew somebody who knew one of the kids that took Marcellus briefcase. So he made a connection and was like, okay, we figured it out. He's our man inside is gonna open the door for us at 7 45. We're gonna come in, we're gonna get the briefcase. But of course, in my head, the idea is that Marvin didn't realize they were gonna kill everybody.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. He thought theyPhil LaMarr:Were just gonna take the briefcase.Michael Jamin:Right. So he'sPhil LaMarr:Freaked out.Michael Jamin:And so how many days is, were you, how many days of a shoot is that for you? Is that a week or what?Phil LaMarr:I spent about two weeks. There was the car scene and the apartment scene. But the, the most ironic thing was I shot my scene after they had shot the Harvey Kittel cleaning up my body scene.Michael Jamin:Right. So whenPhil LaMarr:I came onto set, everybody was looking at me like they recognized me because they had been see, looking at me dead for two months.Michael Jamin:. But how? Wait, but but when you say looking at you dead was, were there photos or something or what? No, no.Phil LaMarr:They built, they built a dummy. The dummy. Oh. Because there's a se there's a sequence where the Harvey guy tell character comes to clean up Yeah. And then carry the body out of the car into the Tarantino character's apartment. YouMichael Jamin:Know, that must been freaky. SoPhil LaMarr:Everybody been looking at this body in the trunk body, you know, and then when I walked on, they were like, it's, it's the same thing of like, when you walk into a room and you forget you're wearing a name tag.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Did you know how great that movie was gonna be at the time? Yes. I mean, you, you can tell. How can you tell? IPhil LaMarr:Couldn't tell how successful it was gonna be because, you know, reservoir Dogs was really good. Right. But it wasn't, you know, it was a big indieMichael Jamin:Movie. Yes.Phil LaMarr:Right. But when you read the script for Pulp FictionMichael Jamin:Uhhuh,Phil LaMarr:It leapt off the page.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:It's funny because like, when I went to audition for it, after meeting Quentin Tarantino, we did a Groundlings improv show.Michael Jamin:Oh, is that right? BecausePhil LaMarr:He's, he was friends with Julia Sweeney, who was a Groundlings alum. Right. And she invited him to come do a show. I was in the cast. Right. And when he was casting pulp Fiction, he was thinking about Marvin. He told the casting lady, Hey, there's this black guy at the Groundling, he's go find him.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:And I remember preparing for the audition, reading through the scene three times. It jumped into my, I w I had it, I was off book by the time I memorized. Because the way it's written, even though it's not everyday life, every line follows exactly what the one before it would say. And it feels natural, even though it is such a heightened world he's created.Michael Jamin:Yeah. He really is. I mean, you know, he's a master with, with words. He doesn't, does he, he doesn't, I can't imagine allow much improv. I mean, it seems like he knows what he wants, right?Phil LaMarr:Oh, yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. The, the script is like a Rosetta Stone. It is carved, yes. Actually, the, the only two things that changed in the script were one a line of Samuel Jackson's character about porkMichael Jamin:Uhhuh ,Phil LaMarr:Because originally they're talking about a pig and he is like, oh, that's the Kerry Grant of pigs. And Sam was like, no, Manam my guy. I don't think this guy would ever think Kerry Grant was cool.Michael Jamin:Right. So theyPhil LaMarr:Changed it to the, the reference to the the at Albert showMichael Jamin:Oh, oh green Acres. Green Acres, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Right.Phil LaMarr:Yeah. It's like the pig on Green AcresMichael Jamin:. And,Phil LaMarr:And the o and the other moment that changed from the script to what, what we shot was because of what a thought that John had.Michael Jamin:Uhhuh GunPhil LaMarr:Travolta. Yeah. Oh. Because, because this was a low budget indie movie. They made this movie with all those stars for only 8 million.Michael Jamin:Are you kidding me? Really?Phil LaMarr:Yeah. And part of that saving money was we rehearsed the entire movie on stage before we started shooting. Right. And I remember going to a sound stage at, at cul in Culver City on Sony and meeting John Travolta and Samuel L. Jackson for the first time in rehearsal.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:And I remember walking in there and it's like, Quinn's like, oh, hey Phil, this John Sam, this is Phil. And John Tra goes, oh geez, this is a guy. I had to kill this guy. The eyes is gonna hate me.Michael Jamin:That's a pretty good Travolta sound just like him. . Oh, thanks.Phil LaMarr:And he just, I thought he was just joking. But eventually he talked to Quintin. Cuz originally in the back of the car, the gun is supposed to go off accidentally. Yeah. And shoot Marvin in the throat.Michael Jamin:Okay.Phil LaMarr:And then he sits there g gurgling while they go back and forth bantering, oh, dad, what are we gonna do? Right. Well, we can't take him to the hospital. Well, I don't have nobody in the valley. Well, alright. Put him out of his misery. When I, on the count of three, I'll hit the horn. And so John's character was supposed to shoot me the second time on, and John said, no, no. Quentin Quinn. Quinn. If my character kills this kid on purpose, it's gonna ha people won't, won't like him. And he was right. It would've negatively affected his sequence with Umma Thurman.Michael Jamin:That's absolutely right. But do you think he was, Travolta was interested in protecting the character or protecting himself as an actor? You know, like how people saw him? What do you think?Phil LaMarr:I think it was, he had a connection to the audience, which I guess was mostly through him, but also through the character. Because I mean, I mean, I guess, you know, Quintin's could have just said No, no, the character's just, he's a nasty, you know, junky. Yes. He does nasty stuff. But I think John was like, no, no, no. This whole sequence with the girl, he's not nasty.Michael Jamin:Right. So, right. I see. And andPhil LaMarr:Quintin agreed with John Yeah. His take on the character.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's so interesting.Phil LaMarr:Isn't thatMichael Jamin:Wild? Yeah, that is. See, it's so funny listening to you, you can so hear like how thoughtful you are about acting, how mu how much, how it's not, it's a craft, it's a, you know, you, I really hear that from you, how much you put how passionate you are about the craft of acne. Not just being on stage, not just you know, doing voices, but the craft of it. You know? Exactly. Yeah. How do, do you miss, or do you get a chance to perform on stage a lot? Because that was your original lovePhil LaMarr:Mm-Hmm. . Yes. Thankfully. I'm still holding on to my performance foundation. My friend Jordan Black, who is another Groundlings alum Uhhuh about what, 12 years ago now, created a group. And we do a show monthly live on stage, an improv show at the Groundlings Okay. Called the Black VersionMichael Jamin:Uhhuh. It's,Phil LaMarr:It's an all black cast, and we take a suggestion from the audience of a classic or iconic motion picture, and then we improv the black version of it. ButMichael Jamin:What if you're not familiar with the, the classic?Phil LaMarr:Well that's the tricky part is our director Karen Mariama mm-hmm. , who was one of my teachers at the Groundlings and is now one of my peers, has an encyclopedic knowledge mm-hmm. , she can take a movie from the black and white era and know the entire structure or something that dropped that dropped on Netflix last week. And she knows everythingMichael Jamin:But you, but if you don't know itPhil LaMarr:Well what we do, what she does is she, she, as the director, she guides the scenes Uhhuh . Okay. Alright. Phil, you are gonna play this, you know, like let's say we're doing the black version of Princess Bride. Phil, you'll, you are this you know, swordsman who is incredibly skilled audience, what do you think his name? Okay. In Negro Montoya, that's your name.Michael Jamin:That's funny. AndPhil LaMarr:Like she'll assign the characters Right. And then guide us from scene to scene. But, you know, our choices, you know like when we did the black version of Princess Bride, it was called her Mama and them, and Prince Humperdink was Prince Humpty Hump. Right. You know, and sometimes the choices will change the, the, you know line, line of the story. But she tries to keep us, you know, take us through the iconic scenes.Michael Jamin:Right. And this is once a month you do this.Phil LaMarr:Yes.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That's a big commitment.Phil LaMarr:Yeah. And for 12 years. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I mean, you must, you probably took a break during the pandemic for a little bit. Yes,Phil LaMarr:Yes, yes, we did.Michael Jamin:But Wow.Phil LaMarr:And recently we've you know, we've built an audience and a reputation and we've started booking on the road. We've we've played the Kennedy Center in Washington DC twice now.Michael Jamin:So you take it on the, and, and how were you able to sell tickets on the road? I mean, so easily.Phil LaMarr:It's, I I think it's, it's the, the venues and also you know, somewhat just the, those of us in the group. I mean, Jordan was a writer on SNL and part of the guest cast on community Cedric Yarborough from Reno 9 1 1, and tons of other shows. SoMichael Jamin:Just your name. Just your name. So it's kind of just your names people like, Hey, we want, you know, we recognize these names, we wanna go see it. If you, you know this.Phil LaMarr:Yeah. I, I mean, I'm, I'm not exactly sure how we managed to sell out, youMichael Jamin:Know? That's amazing. All overPhil LaMarr:TheMichael Jamin:Place. That sounds like a lot of fun.Phil LaMarr:It's so much fun.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Wow. I mean, is there a limit to how much you can, I mean, just organizing that to get everyone to get the time off. I mean, that's gotta be logisticallyPhil LaMarr:Gotta be hard. Yeah. The, the tours aren't that we don't do them that often because, you know, Gary Anthony Williams from, you know, Malcolm in the Middle and stuff, everybody in our cast works a lot. Yeah. So we can really only guarantee the show once a month. Right. but sometimes when we tour, not everybody goesMichael Jamin:Because Yeah, you have to, I mean, if someone books apart and you're shooting that at night, what, what are you gonna do? That's the way. Right.Phil LaMarr:Or you or you have to fly to Vancouver for six months.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Right. And that's part of, that's, I mean, that's part of the, the plus of, of the do for you for doing a lot of voice acting is that, you know, you probably get to lead a pretty sane in life if for an actor it's, it can be very hard, you know, being onPhil LaMarr:Their Well, and, and it's also one of the wonderful things about the progress that has come since we started the show, because part of the reason Jordan created the show is because those of us in the improv world, you know, who are people of color, oftentimes spent the majority of our time being the one.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil LaMarr:But over the years, the, you know, the numbers, the diversity in the improv world, you know, expanded, it used to be a very suburban art form.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Phil LaMarr:But now, you know, I I I credit this mostly to Wayne Brady doing whose lives in anyway.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Yeah. And so that really opens up more opportunities and more of what Yeah. That, that's, that's interesting that, you know, that really has changed a lot. How, how have you seen it change your opportunities in the past, I don't know, whatever, 20 years, 30 years, you know, however long?Phil LaMarr:Well, it's, it's, it's changed be in a lot of ways. One, when I got voted into the Groundlings in 1992, I was the first black person to get voted into the company in its 18 years of existence.Michael Jamin:You're kidding me. Yeah. That's crazy. That's crazy.Phil LaMarr:And now the pool of, you know black people, you know, who are Groundlings has expanded. It's not just one every 18 years.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. But, and in terms of more, you know, more opportunities for you even, you know, I mean, everything's, everything's really opened up for you. Right. I mean, I imagine Well,Phil LaMarr:Well, because we have, you know, the, those of us in entertainment have expanded. Yeah. You know, what we consider will work. You know, I was talking my son just graduated from NYU and one of his classmates is the son of the woman who directed the woman king. Okay. At Viola Davis, you know. Right. Action movie. Right. And I remember watching and thinking, oh my god, when I was 18, no studio in the world.Michael Jamin:Right. Would touch that. Right. Would'vePhil LaMarr:Would've, you know, green lit Yeah. A action movie, you know, about black women.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right.Phil LaMarr:And, and the fact that, you know, it's out there now and is just another big movie. It's, it's not considered, you know you know, a once in a lifetime thing anymore. That's the progress and the fact that we have, you know, middle-aged women mm-hmm. leads of s of TV series. Yeah. You know, back in the old days, the only lead of a TV series was one beautiful person or one famous, you know, hilarious person. Yeah. But now they've opened it up.Michael Jamin:I wonder, is your son planning to going through the arts now that he graduated from nyu?Phil LaMarr:Yes. Yes. He's, he's musician. He oh, writes and sings and dances and raps and produces, and he's part of the Clive Davis recorded music program where they teach them music and the music business.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Wow.Phil LaMarr:One of his teachers was Clive Davis's daughter. Wow. Who's a lawyer.Michael Jamin:And do, I mean, it's, but it's, the music is different from what you do. I wonder, I wonder if you're able to, does it all feel like, I don't know how to help , you know? Yeah.Phil LaMarr:Yeah. There's a lot of that uhhuhMichael Jamin:Like,Phil LaMarr:Dad dead. Because when your kid goes into, you know, show business, you think, well, I've been in show business for 40 years, like, you haven't been in the music business. I'm like, you're right.Michael Jamin:That's true. So interesting. Wow. Wow. And, and, and so what about, I guess, you know what's next for you? Is you just, is it more of the same? Is there more, well, actually I know you have a pilot that you, that you were, you're working on, you know, you're getting into the writing side of the business. Yes.Phil LaMarr:More so. Yes. And that actually over the last couple of years has been a, a slight shift you know, having been performing. Yeah. You know, for so long now, since the eighties. I've also, and I've also been writing since the nineties when I started at the Groundlings. Right. I was writing sketches and I wrote on Mad tv. But just recently, earlier in this year, I took a job as a professional writer on a television show for the first time.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:And it was pretty wild to have 30 years of sitcoms under your belt and then suddenly see it from a completely different angle.Michael Jamin:And what, and what was your impression of that?Phil LaMarr:It, it was wild to cuz like you were talking about the way I look at acting and break it down. Yeah. And, you know, look at all the subtle distinctions. I had never looked at, you know, TV writing that way. Okay. But to suddenly be in a room with people who look at who see it that way for decades, you're like, oh wow. How do I feel like a rookie at 56?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. And so there's a lot of catching, a lot of catching up little Yeah. You know, that's so, and, and are, are you enjoying it as much or as much as you thought? Or what do you think?Phil LaMarr:Well it, the challenge part was, was a little bit, you know, tough. Yeah. But it was great to be working on a really good show with great, talented people and to be learning something new. It's like, yeah. Oh, like for me, like when we would write sketches at the Groundlings Uhhuh, you didn't think about anything about like, well, beginning, middle, and end. Right. Three minutes.Michael Jamin:Right, right.Phil LaMarr:You know, but now you have to think about, you know, character arcs and the, you know, okay, well if you introduce the character's father, we have to think about their entire family. Is the mother still a alive? You're like, oh, right. When you write a sketch, you don't have to think about,Michael Jamin:You don't think about any of that. Right. And when you, and when you're acting the part you, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's, it's so interesting cause I always say like, acting and writing are really, they're two sides of the same coin. It really helps to study both whatever you want to do, study both. Exactly. it's all, and so yeah, that, that finding that emotional arc and, you know, it's all, it's all new for you, but yeah. I wonder, you know, but you're enjoying it.Phil LaMarr:Well and, and working alongside, I mean, cuz there were people who, you know, one guy at show run Will and Grace, another guy worked on Arrested Development. I mean like, you know, one guy was showrunner on five other shows to, to watch how they mm-hmm. . Cause for me, I would like, Hey, I would just pitch out a joke. I'm just gonna say something I think is funny. Right. But they had this like s you know, Superman MicroVision where they could take that joke and see Yeah. How it could affect the mm-hmm. the entire scene, the entire episode and the entire season.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. It's like, where does that, but offPhil LaMarr:The top of their head.Michael Jamin:Right. And where does it go? Where does that moment go into the script, into the, you know, is it act one or is it Act three? And so that Yes.Phil LaMarr:Yeah. That yes. I mean I'm sure you have that, that x-ray vision too. Yeah. Where you can look at a script and see the act structure Yeah. And you know, and or just even the structure of just the scene. Yeah. Like what does this character, where do they start and where do they finish?Michael Jamin:Yeah, that's right. Well we were, we ran a show for Mark Maron for four years and you know, he was one of the writers in it and he would pitch an idea, cause I wanna say this, and then we'd put up Neck one and then I remember at one point , we were talking about it and we said, mark, I don't think this can go in Act one. Is it okay if we put a neck three? And he'd say, oh, I don't care where you put it is. Right. long as in the script,Phil LaMarr:I'm just thinking about what the character would say.Michael Jamin:Yeah. That Right. I was like, was like, oh, that's a relief. I thought you were gonna get mad for, you know, you didn't care about that. So funny.Phil LaMarr:Right. Yeah. Just cuz as performers we are not looking at the app structure.Michael Jamin:Right, right. You know,Phil LaMarr:Most of us, I, I may imagine there are some people who do like, well I wanna build up from act two to act three, you know? Yeah. But most of us don't. We're just, what is the guy feeling in this scene right now?Michael Jamin:Right. And how to get to that, the truth of that, how difficult is it for you to make yourself vulnerable like that on stage to like, to go there, you know, whatever, maybe it's crying or whatever it is. How difficult it is for you just to allow yourself to go there?Phil LaMarr:Well, it's not necessarily easy. It's definitely something that I had to, you know, a skill set to build Uhhuh . You know, I was not one of those people when I started acting who could make themselves cry on cue, UhhuhMichael Jamin:,Phil LaMarr:You know. But I remember I had to do a scene on a, a Steven Boko show called Philly. And it's like, okay, well this character is really, you know, emotionally, you know, I gotta figure out how to make sure I'm putting that out there. Right. So I thought about something sad and let it, you know, something different than what the character was thinking about mm-hmm. . But it's again, like, you know, with the voice acting like what sounds bey you also have to think about your face, what looks Yeah. Sorrowful and how do you make yourself look sorrowful. Right. You know, although one of the things that helped me learn where to, to try to go was working on Pulp Fiction with Samuel L. Jackson.Michael Jamin:What he what? Go on. He gave you some great advice or what?Phil LaMarr:No, he just, what he showed because you would stand there offset talking to this cool old guy who was amazing, you know? Yeah. He's just talking about golfing or his daughter. But then when the camera started rolling Yeah. The person you were just talking to disappeared. Right on set. I looked over and I was looking into the eyes of someone completely different than Samuel L. Jackson. Right. And I remember standing there in my twenties thinking, oh my God, he transformed himself internally. And so that it shows externally. Yeah. That's like, I gotta learn how to do that.Michael Jamin:And then how did you learn how to do that?Phil LaMarr:Well, I, I'm still haven't gotten to his level , but what I learned is you have to figure out one, how you look and how you get, it's, it's like a map. Mm-Hmm. , you know you know, if you figure out how to guide your internal self to a place where your external self does what's on the page, that's what acting is. You know, otherwise you would just be reading words to be or not to be. That is the question. You know, it's not just about the words. It's how do you express the feeling? And Sam taught me there is a way where you don't have to do nine minutes of to get into character.Michael Jamin:Okay. IfPhil LaMarr:You know the root within yourself, you can do it like that. Right. So I, I realized it was about learning your internal, you know, where do, where do you put your sadness? Where do you put your anger and where's, what's the difference between your anger and this character's anger? Guide yourself there and then, you know, connect the two.Michael Jamin:And do you have moments where you feel like, I I didn't do it. I didn't get there. You know. Well,Phil LaMarr:I mean that's the, the one good thing about on camera work and what we were talking about about the rehearsal Uhhuh is you can find, take the time to find it, but yes, no, there's, there's always, you know, not every job is a home run. Mm-Hmm. , you're like, oh, I wish I had gone a little bit deeper with that. Right. You know and sometimes you feel it there. Yes. Other times you don't realize it until after you see it. And maybe it's, they picked a take that Right. You didn't No. That wasn't the best one. Why didn't they, you know, not nothing is ever perfect.Michael Jamin:Right, right. YouPhil LaMarr:Know,Michael Jamin:And, but do you, like sometimes I'll watch, I'll be on set and I'll watch an actor do something. Usually it's drama and or a dramatic moment. Right. And, and they let it all out. And after you, you'll cut. I'm always like, I wonder if they need a moment alone. You know what I'm saying? It's like Right. I mean, what are your, what's your take on that?Phil LaMarr:Well, I mean, I'm not a, a method guy. I don't put myself into, because Yeah. You, you hear a lot about that, about a guy's like, yeah man, I had to play this character and my girlfriend hated me for a month because when I went home I was still part of that dude. Yeah. You know? And I don't know if it's my improv and sketch background where I take my character off like a hat,Michael Jamin:Uhhuh . IPhil LaMarr:Don't take them home and, you know, I, I try to embody it during the performance, but I don't feel it's, you know, required to have to be the character.Michael Jamin:Right. But if you spend a whole day as a character,Phil LaMarr:It can, it can be draining.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. It can be draining. Right. You have to wash yourself up that if, if you don't like that, you know, if you don't like that person, you have to wash yourself of that. Right. And how do you do that?Phil LaMarr:Yeah. Well, I mean that's, that's about, you know, when you leave the set mm-hmm. , you leave those feelings behind, although some actors don't, but you'veMichael Jamin:Just experienced, you spent the whole day experiencing that mm-hmm. that whatever it is, and yes, I understand you left it, but you spent the whole day angry or, or mournful or bitter or whatever it is. Like how do you, you still have to wash yourself from that, don't you? Well,Phil LaMarr:But I mean, the, for me, I'm not fooling myself. I'm not trying to convince myself that the script and the character is real and me. Cuz that's the thing. Like, if you spend all day with your drunken uncle who's nasty on Thanksgiving, that's not fun.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:You know, and then when you leave, you're like, ugh. You can, you can still be right, you know, upset about it, but you're, you're con but because you're connected to that person. For me, it's about, that is fiction. Right. I only, you know, I'm connected to the fiction while performing. I don't feel like I have to be, you know, like when I play Hermes on Futurama, I don't have to speak in a Jamaican accent for the entire season.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:You know?Michael Jamin:But are there moments, and maybe this is less so for a voice acting, but when you're, when you're on, when you're on camera, are there moments when you're like, you're cognizant that, oh, I'm acting now. Mm-Hmm. , you know, and then you, and you have to, oh, I gotta get back. You know, and you're, you're delivering your lines right in the middle of the line, you realize I'm acting.Phil LaMarr:Well, it, it's interesting because I think part of this mental philosophy I have is, you know, comes from watching Sam Jackson Uhhuh because he wasn't method, he wasn't acting like Jules, you know, acting like a gangster, a man with a gun the whole time.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:And he showed me that. And it's funny because while he was doing that, Frank Whaley who had worked on the doors was telling anecdotes about how when Val Kilmer was playing Jim Morrison, he was the exact opposite. Right. He, before they started shooting, he sent out a memo. Everyone is to refer to me as Jim or Mr. Morrison.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:You know, and he had a tent set where he would, you know, work to be in character and would only come on set as Jim Morrison. Right. He was ne They never s they never spoke to Val.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:Right. So, you know, what about, yes. It's definitely difficult for some people if that's their approach. No, no. My approach is I have to live this character.Michael Jamin:Right. You know, so you're, so you, okay, so that's not your problem. You don't have to worry. That's not something you have to Yeah, no. Interesting. I, I'm so interested in the, the actor's approach to the material, you know? Yeah. Because, you know, we write it, but how do you guys do, how do you guys do it? Because there's a difference. There really is a difference. You know, we hear it one way we envision it, but we can't do it. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah. We can't get it out of our heads onto, into reality, but you can. And so I'm always like, how did you do thatPhil LaMarr:? Right. Well, it was, it was, it was interesting experience, you know, from the writing, acting, you know, crossover. Mm. I worked on a, I was developing an animated show based on a friend of mine's web comic called Goblins.Michael Jamin:Okay.Phil LaMarr:And my partner, Matt King and I, we were both performers, but we adapted the comic into a script. And I called a bunch of my voice actor friends, cuz we were, we were gonna make a trailer, you know, to bring these, you know, comic characters to life Yeah. In animation. And it was funny cuz Matt and I are actors. We had, you know, written the script and we'd acted out these scenes. And so in our heads we, we thought we knew exactly how they'd sound. But then we brought in amazing Billy West, Maurice La Marsh. Mm-Hmm. , Jim Cummings. Mm-Hmm. Steve Bloom, Jennifer. And it was funny because when they performed the scenes we had written, they took it to a whole other level. Right. Beyond what existed in our, in our heads. Right. Like, oh my God, they made it so much better than I even imagined it couldMichael Jamin:Be. Right, right.Phil LaMarr:And it was wild cuz I'd heard writers, you know, express a similar kind of thing. It's like, oh my gosh, you guys did such, such amazing with, and, but to have it, you know, as someone who'd been a performer, to have someone take your and do that miracle with it was an eye-opening experience. Like, ah, butMichael Jamin:There's something else that you do. Cause you know, there's a handful ofri actors, voice of actors, they always work. You're one of them. But pro you call 'em in and it's, it's knowing, especially in comedy, knowing where, how to hit the joke. I mean, we always say, can they hit a joke? And knowing where the laugh falls, not just somewhere, but which word makes it, makes it funny, you know? Mm-Hmm. , you know. And do you think that's your instinct? Or is that just something you've gotten better at?Phil LaMarr:Yes, I think that's something that has grown from performing, especially in the sense of, in the sense of comedy. Because I remember, you know, starting out on stage doing, you know, plays, then doing, doing improv, which is specific comedy cuz when you're doing a play mm-hmm. , the writer has decided which moments are funny, which moments are dramatic, you know. But when you're doing improv, you and the audience are deciding what's funny. Right. And, and I remember coming, you know, back to LA and pursuing acting and then starting to get work on camera and doing comedy. And I realized, huh. Oh wow. I don't have an audience.Michael Jamin:Yes. And youPhil LaMarr:Have, you have to create a gauge in your head for, is this funny? Because when you're on stage and you're doing a funny bit, you're, you know, you can feel from the audience whether, oh, I need to push that up a littleMichael Jamin:Bit. Right.Phil LaMarr:But when you're working on camera, this, the crew is not allowed to laugh outMichael Jamin:Loud. Right.Phil LaMarr:You know, so you have to create an audience inside you, an internal audience in your head to help, you know, is, is this the timing of this?Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:And, and it's funny because I've developed that and a couple of years into it, I remember I got a job working on N Y P D, blueMichael Jamin:UhhuhPhil LaMarr:Playing a guy who was being questioned, you know, interrogated in the police station and then gets roughed up by Ricky SchroederMichael Jamin:Uhhuh.Phil LaMarr:But the, the lines, because this guy's on drugs. And I remember like, oh wow, I gotta be careful. This could be funny . Cause he's like, you know, like, you know, cause Ricky Schroeder, you know, sees blood on his, on his clothes, like, take your clothes off. It's like, and the guy take my clothes. What you wanna do? What you ain't gonna put no boom on my ass. Right. And I remembered I have to gauge the funny way to do this and not doMichael Jamin:That. Yes. Right, right. Because,Phil LaMarr:You know, there was, I, and I realize no, no. Pull back the tempo and lean into the anger, not the outrage.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. So, andPhil LaMarr:Then it'll be, then it'll be dramatic, not comedy.Michael Jamin:It's, again, here you are approaching it really from the craft. It's not Yeah. I just wish it's, when I hear people, I want to be an actor. Okay. Take it serious. Are you gonna study? Are you just gonna, do you wanna be famous? Which, what is it you want? You know?Phil LaMarr:Right.Michael Jamin:And well, let's talk about that for a second. What, what's your relationship with, with fame? How do you, you know?Phil LaMarr:Well, that's a very interesting thing because I feel like that has changed mm-hmm. from the generation, like when you're our age, when we were growing up pre-internet mm-hmm.Michael Jamin:Phil LaMarr:Fame only applied to stars.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right.Phil LaMarr:Now, you know, I mean, nobody knew voice actors, only voice actor anybody knew was Mel Blank.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:You know, people to this day still don't know what Das Butler looks like. Right. But the now anybody who appears on anything, even a YouTuberMichael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:Has some level of fame. Right. You know, and, and it's wild because, because of the internet, the, you know, it now matters what you say. In the old days, if you were a television character actor, like if you were Richard MulliganMichael Jamin:Yeah.Phil LaMarr:It never, nobody was ever gonna post what you said about something.Michael Jamin:Right.Phil LaMarr:It was only if you were Joan Crawford. Right. Or

Steve Baldikoski is an Emmy nominated Showrunner known for Fuller House. He's also worked on Last Man Standing, Glenn Martin D.D.S., Wilfred, and Kristie. Join Michael Jamin and Steve Baldikoski for a conversation about how Steve broke in and what it takes to make it in HollywoodShow NotesSteve Baldikoski on IMDB - https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0049747/Steve Baldikoski on Twitter - https://twitter.com/finchbot2000Free Writing Webinar - https://michaeljamin.com/op/webinar-registration/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptSteve Baldikoski:I mean, you're, you are sort of clued in to, to what your boss likes. Mm-Hmm. , you also have your own tastes. You, you kind of know what the project is supposed to be. I, I, yeah, I don't know. There, there's no formal executive school on how to give notes. That's why it's kind, it's kind of a weird job because there's no training for it. I don't really necessarily know what makes you good or not good.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome to another episode of Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got another great guest today. This is my old buddy, Steve Bobowski. Steve has written on some of the, some of your favorite shows, as long as your show's favorite shows are ,Steve Baldikoski:As long as they're, as long as you have Terrible Taste and only watch shows that are gone after 13 episodes, andMichael Jamin:Then, then these are your favorite shows. But I'm gonna start, I'm gonna, in no particular order of, of, I think I'm going in order Teenager Working. Remember that show Dag with David Allen Greer Baby Bob. Oh, we're gonna talk about Baby Bob. Okay. Yeah. A U s A. Andy Richter controls the universe. People like that show a lot. I, I'm with her or I'm with her. I'm with her. I'm with her.Steve Baldikoski:I'm withMichael Jamin:Her. I'm with her . Eight. Eight Simple Rules. The New Adventures of Old Christine. That was a good show. The Jake Effect. Big Shots. True. Jackson, I forgot you worked that out. Wilfred. Which you could thank me for Glenn Martin d s, which you could thank me for Kirsty, which I can thank you for. Last Man Standing, whatever, .Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. They don't have anyone to thank for that.Michael Jamin:Thank for that.Steve Baldikoski:Save Me.Michael Jamin:Jennifer Falls, Ned and Stacy. And then of course, you were the executive producer and showrunner of Fuller House, the Full House remake. Steve, welcome to the big show,Steve Baldikoski:. Thank, thank you for having me. It's very exciting to be here.Michael Jamin:Wasn't it exciting, man? Oh man. Oh, and I have to say, so yeah, so we started out my partner and I hired Steve and his partner Brian, on, on Glenn Martin dds. And we were always very grateful. These guys turned in great drafts and we were always extremely grateful. Yeah, thank you. And then we would just shovel more work as, as for gratitude, we would just shovel more scripts in your face. Write this one now,Steve Baldikoski:, that was one of the highlights of my career. That was some of the best times I've ever had.Michael Jamin:We had some, you know, it's funny, I asked Andy Gordon in in a, in a previous episode, I said, and I'll ask you the same question. If you had, if you could go back in time and either remake any of the shows you did worked on, or like rebooted or just work on it again, what, what would they be? Any,Steve Baldikoski:I thought you were gonna tell me. Andy's answer . AndyMichael Jamin:Said if you want, Andy said, just shoot me. And true. JacksonSteve Baldikoski:Uhhuh . I, I, Glen Martin was a highlight, and and I think it was an underappreciated show,Michael Jamin:Certainly was. AndSteve Baldikoski:If, if it weren't in Claymation, maybe someone would've watched it.Michael Jamin:You know, we went on the internet, Seabert and I, my partner and I, we went on the internet and we found some guy talking about Glen Martin. And it was as if he was in the writer's room. It was as if he was, because he, he was right on the money . Like he knew what was good about it, what was bad about it. He had theories as to why ,Steve Baldikoski:I think you, you talking about Alex Berger, the creator,Michael Jamin:, it wasn't Alex. It was something like, it was something like Whacko on the internet, but boy, he was dead on. He was like, he knew exactly what he was talking about.Steve Baldikoski:. Well, one, one weird thing that that happened to me, this is slightly related. When, when Brian, my old writing partner and I took over for house in the last couple of seasons, it was right before the final season, and it was after Lori Locklin had her collegeIssues, legal issues with varsity Blues. On April Fool's Day, there was this article in some Likee News or something where someone did a whole, it was a fake interview with me, but it seemed like it was real. And the reasonings that they were talking about getting rid of Lori's character and what would happen after, you know, she was divorced from Uncle Jesse on Fuller House. W it was so well thought out that it, I thought it had to be written by also someone in the room, Uhhuh, because they actually knew like, specific arguments that specific writers had in getting rid of this person. And then it turns out, only if you clicked the very bottom did it say April Fools. And it was all phony interview with me,Michael Jamin:But still they got it. Right. But itSteve Baldikoski:Was, it, it was so eerie that it was, it was probably probably had better reasons to include her or not include her than we did. So there are a lot of fans out there who understand the shows just as well as the writers Do.Michael Jamin:I, I think so. I, I think even on, people talk about King of the Hill and they remember episodes. I'm like, I don't remember that one. And then they look it up and go, I, I worked on it. I don't tell me what happened. It's like, I don't remember it. You know, it's from, you know, very important to some of these people. And you know, they, they, they watch it all the time. And I haven't watched it in 20 years. ButSteve Baldikoski:But did you, there was a moment where when on Wilfrid where David Zuckerman, the creator didn't even know that he had a logic fallacy in the first episode. Do you know the story? No. I think he was at Comic-Con and he, he was, he, it it was about the pilot of Wilfred where Wilfred is trying to get through the fence and a regular dog would crawl through the fence, but instead Wilfred has an ax.Michael Jamin:Right. AndSteve Baldikoski:And then they said, well, shouldn't I take the ax from Wilf Fred because it's dangerous? And then David said, wisely said, no, you can't grab the ax cuz that means the ax is real. And the second he said that someone in the audience held their hand up and said, well, what about the Bong? Yeah,Michael Jamin:What about the Bong? Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:And David had never considered that.Michael Jamin:Well,Steve Baldikoski:But Jar, that was fascinating that, that he, they had never thought of it on set, but out there. Got him instantlyMichael Jamin:Etro gave a headache to write and remember, like, what, who, and then, and then your part of Brian's likeSteve Baldikoski:That, that anecdote gave me a headache to mention.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it was, I remember he just like, don't you think people just wanna see the dog danceSteve Baldikoski:?Michael Jamin:See the dog dance? That was his pitch. . Oh man. Oh my God, what a show. But did you ever,Steve Baldikoski:This whole section is even inside Wilf Fred.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is inside Wilfred.Steve Baldikoski:I don't think anyone would appreciate that. But did youMichael Jamin:Ever, even when you were running Fuller house, did you, did you ever turn to the, what do the fans want? Did you turn to the, because there's a lot of pressureSteve Baldikoski:On that actually, I have to say. That was a huge part of Fuller House and it was one of the things I think that the audience loved. And it was a unique situation for me because I had, still, to this day, I've seen two and a half episodes of the original full House.Michael Jamin:Uhhuh .Steve Baldikoski:So I didn't know anything about Full House, but other people did. And so if we would want to throw in, we call them Easter eggs, right? Throw in little Easter eggs and bring back, you know, some character that was in an, in a single episode 30 years ago, we would bring those actors back and the audience would go bananas. Yeah.Michael Jamin:But how, how can, you didn't watch any old episodes or, you know, there's so much,Steve Baldikoski:Why, why didn't I, orMichael Jamin:Yeah, why didn't you?Steve Baldikoski:Well part of it is I, I didn't want to actually be beholden to any of the other of the old stories.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:Because I mean, even, you know, like Fuller House is a little bit of an old fashioned show, but we didn't wanna make it just like completely stuck in the past and, and a show that is only about, that's referencing the original show. And that was more helpful to just have a perspective of like, what's it like raising, you know, three kids in, you know, modern day California.Michael Jamin:But did you feel a, a strong, I guess, obligation to make sure the fans were happy? Cuz I'm show the writers are writing for themselves.Steve Baldikoski:Oh, oh, for sure. We were doing that constantly and you know, we, we knew it. There were certain things that were like, you know, throwing red meat to the audience.Michael Jamin:Oh.Steve Baldikoski:You know, kind of like, like, like if you're doing the show Fuller House, no. You know, no matter what the story you're doing is, or whatever, if you have to, you bring in a dog wearing sunglasses and the audience goes bananas. And then how do you talk? And a, a baby runs in wearing the same sunglasses.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm.Steve Baldikoski: and then just the, the audience like tears of joy in the audienceMichael Jamin:Because that's, that, that was an old staple in the original show, stuff like that.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. I mean, that's just the kind of thing that they would stoop to, you know, . And so, no, but it was, but it was this, it was this, the Four House is a show that like, you know, it really, it really affected me as a writer cuz it was really that time when every week there were 200 fans in the audience. Super fans who knew every single episode of Full House and Fuller House. And so you would get this amazing instant recognition from the audience that you're writing for them.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:Especially when you would have those little Easter eggs and you don't get that on a lot of shows.Michael Jamin:Right. YouSteve Baldikoski:Know, like I, you know, may maybe on your Just Shoot Me you would have just shoot me fans, but every seat every week was a super fan.Michael Jamin:No. The weird thing about Just Shoot Me, you know, cause we was, we were there the first four years and the, the first season, probably the first two seasons that the audience, they weren't fans, they were hostages. There was people who came from Free Pizza, , you can tell they wouldn't wanna be there. . And they know the showSteve Baldikoski:Prisoners,Michael Jamin:Prison Prisoners,Steve Baldikoski:You're sailors in for Fleet Week.Michael Jamin:It's basically that. I mean, people listening, it's like you show up on Hollywood Boulevard and they hand out tickets, Hey, who wants to see a taping of the show? And then anyone would show up and they would stay warm, cause anybody to get outta the rain. ButSteve Baldikoski:These, no, these were people who came from not just around the country, but from literally around the world to see the show. Yeah. And they would th these people would center their vacation on coming to the show. And, and so, you know, I I mean I, it was also amazing to be able to, like, after the show, you know, if you knew who the people were you would bring them down and, and they would just get a kick out of walking around the set. Mm-Hmm. . And that was another kind of highlight every week was, you know, having these people, you know, have this awesome experience that they've grown up with these characters in this set. And then they're running around on the set, you know, now that they're grown up and they've got kids who, who like the shows.Michael Jamin:Now this set was a repeat that wasn't,Steve Baldikoski:That was kind of amazing cuz you would, it it wasn't just, it wasn't just fans, it was two generations of fans. Right. You know, it was like people who are sort of our age and then they're kids. Right. And, and so, you know, when network people talk about family co-viewing, it really was that it was, you know, parents who still love the show,Michael Jamin:But it wasn't the set was a remake. Right. It wasn't the actually,Steve Baldikoski:It, it was a remake. But I'll I'll tell you, and this is also part of the weird experience coming onto the show, cuz neither, you know, I had no appreciation really for a full house at the time. So before the first show, and this was the entire first season before it aired on Netflix there was a curtain covering the set. And before they would announce the actors, they would, they would lift the curtain like it, like it was like at the theater. Right. And the first time for the shooting the pilot, when they revealed that to the audience, people burst into tears.Michael Jamin:Wow.Steve Baldikoski:Just seeing the set and the couch looking just like it did in the eighties. And the way they really, really mimicked the original set, you know, to the Inch cuz they had the original plans. It was amazing to see people moved by a set.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I bet. ISteve Baldikoski:Bet. And yeah. And so, so that was pretty unusual. And then any line would get, even a mediocre line would get an aureus laugh from the audience cuz they were all, they've been waiting for 25 years to see this moment.Michael Jamin:Now, I imagine you had some of the writers in the show who grew up with watching the original Fall House, who knew more about the show than, than you did? Who?Steve Baldikoski:Oh, oh yeah. Yeah. For sure. And that's why also I felt I didn't need to see the show that much. I'm not recommending people shouldn't do homework .Michael Jamin:Now, one of the things that shocked me when we, when we were working with you, this is long, many years ago, and maybe it was only a season one or something. You shocked me when you said that you, at one point you were, you started as a network executive. I was like, you what? WhatSteve Baldikoski:Well, yeah, Stu, a studio, executiveMichael Jamin:Studio. SoSteve Baldikoski:Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was I was like a director of comedy development at Universal.Michael Jamin:And so tell tell us what, what that means. WhatSteve Baldikoski:Do, should I go back further? Could goMichael Jamin:Back to where you wanna startSteve Baldikoski:To that point. I mean, I never, I never set out to be a writer. I don't even know if you know any of my origin story about this stuff. Oh. I never really set out to be a writer. I always loved TV, but I also love music in, in movies. But didn't even know I was gonna get into the entertainment business until I was trying to blow a year or two before I would get a little bit of work experience and then back to go to law school. You were gonna law school get an mba and I was never gonna be a part of the entertainment industry, but I just lucked into what turned out to be a great job in the mail room at United Talent Agency, uta. And it was like this moment that U t A was on the rise and I, yeah, I was in the mail room where I'm literally working 80 hours a week delivering mail and reading scripts for free and writing coverage, doing that for five months. Then I got on a desk, I worked for Nancy Jones and Jay Surs.Michael Jamin:Oh boy.Steve Baldikoski:I was their first assistants at United Talent, I believe. And then and then I knew it wasn't for me cuz it was really cutthroat. Yes. I, I was learning what I didn't want to do. And working a traditional office that led to I got a job in development. I worked at Aaron Spelling Productions, and then that job got me wait, howMichael Jamin:Did you get a job in development? Cause it's, it is hard to make the transition from being an assistant at a desk to having a non-a job anywhere.Steve Baldikoski:Oh, oh. I, I was still an assistant for Oh, okay. Years. I was an assistant for spelling for one year. Mm-Hmm. , then I was an assistant. I worked for Jamie Tarsus at b c. Right. And that's, and that was kind of the, the, the pivotal moment in my career. Cuz kind of anyone who was Jamie Tarsus assistant moved on to become the next executive. Right. And so that kind of became my path. I was, I, I never set out to do this, but I just kept at getting a job that was just better than the last one. Mm-Hmm. . So I never had the reason to go back to law school. Right. And it was just like they kept on dragging me back in with a slightly better job. So this one year I spent as Jamie's assistant at N B C Frazier had been bought, but not shot.And then Jamie bought friends that year. I can't remember the names of the other shows, but but like, you know, being on set at the pilot of Friends was really that pivotal moment for me where I thought, oh, th this is, you know, really what I wanna do. Like, and I was on the path to be an executive, but I really would look over and the writers seemed to be having a lot more fun. And that's where I, I didn't really even know it, but that was, that was my path to be to being a writer was just kind of hanging out at N B C and, and seeing how things, you know, being a part of. But evenMichael Jamin:When you were an executive development exec, were you thinking, I want to be a writer? Or were you thinking No, no,Steve Baldikoski:Not really. I, I knew like, the executive path was like, was fine and I did that. And on the executive path, when you're no longer an assistant, you get bumped up and you get the office and it was very kind of, there were a lot of fancy trappings. I would wear a suit and I'd drive around all the networks trying to sell co half hour comedies to the networks. And it was it was a good job. But there was just something I still kept on looking at, you know, the writers who were on the floor and thought they were having more fun.Michael Jamin:But Do you, and you were giving notes to writers Yes. As executive. Do you at any point feel like, I don't really, how might, who might I be giving notes to a writer when theySteve Baldikoski:Oh, I, I, I felt that all the time. And because I felt that, cuz I kind of had so much respect for what the writers did. Yeah. That it was, it was hard for me to give as many notes. Cuz I thought the writer probably already had thought these things throughMichael Jamin:Uhhuh .Steve Baldikoski:But where were youMichael Jamin:Getting your notes from then?Steve Baldikoski:What's that?Michael Jamin:Where were you getting your notes from? Where were you getting your opinions from?Steve Baldikoski:Well, I, I have opinions just like, IMichael Jamin:Wouldn't have, I wouldn't have when I was starting it out, I go, I don't know. That's fine to me.Steve Baldikoski:I mean, you're, you're sort of clued in to, to what your boss likes. Mm-Hmm. , you also have your own tastes. You, you kind of know what the project is supposed to be. I, yeah, I don't know. There, there's no formal executive school on how to give notes. That's why it's kind, it's kind of a weird job because there's no training for it. I don't really necessarily know what makes you good or not good.Michael Jamin:And some, a lot of it is just opinion. But I I sometimes you'll get the same notes and which are fair, which is a, you know, start the story journal, whatever. That's a great note that you're always, this is totally valid note. But sometimes I, you know, I've been in meetings and you're like, you get a note, you're like, but that's just your opinion. This doesn't make it better or worse.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. And, and I mean, obviously, you know, that's something you, you will struggle with till the end of time. Yeah. But, but I also always go back to, you know, I, I think there's a, there's a cartoon about this at, at some point, but, but like, if Shakespeare handed an Hamlet, his agent would give him notes. Yeah. And he would say, Hamlet is inactive. Yeah. And then you would make him Mae swashbuckling hero.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. Yes.Steve Baldikoski:And that would ruin Hamlet. So, so like, you know, and, and the problem is that like, the, that agent's note would be a well, well-guided note.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Hamlet, that isSteve Baldikoski:A mm-hmm. is a valid thing for him to say, but it also ruins the inherent art of the piece. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You know? Yeah. Had a kick. ButSteve Baldikoski:Then not that writing Glen Martin was the equivalent of ShakespeareMichael Jamin:In many ways. But it wasSteve Baldikoski:Pretty close.Michael Jamin:It was a little higherSteve Baldikoski:. But ,Michael Jamin:We had some fun on that show. But and then when, when you wanted to make the transition, I don't know how, how, how do you do, how did you do that?Steve Baldikoski:So, so, and once, like, and this is just my case, it was shockingly not that hard. My who became my writing partner was one of my best friends in college. And Brian had always wanted to be a sitcom writer. And just kind of had, kind of flamed out a couple of times. And then he was living in San Francisco and having a really excellent career as a, as an advertising copywriter. And I called him up and I told him I wanted to write sitcom with him. And he said no. And then he say he changed his mind.Michael Jamin:Why did he say no?Steve Baldikoski:Cuz I said, fine, I'm, if you don't write it with me, I'm gonna write it with Sue Ale .Michael Jamin:Oh,Steve Baldikoski:Funny. That's a true story. She wasn't,Michael Jamin:Sue wasn't an Sue Nagle who later went on to run H B O and then and Ana and you know, she, she's big, but she, at the time she was, she was, sheSteve Baldikoski:Was not yet an agent or she was a very young one. And we, butMichael Jamin:She didn't wanna write,Steve Baldikoski:Did she? So then we got together and to go to a coffee place to brainstorm. And we got into a, we didn't even make it to the coffee place before we got into a huge argumentMichael Jamin:Over what?Steve Baldikoski:Oh, I don't, I don't rememberMichael Jamin:. This partnership's not going well,Steve Baldikoski:. No, he was, he was not. But, but if you can't make it to the place where you're supposed to think , then it's probably a doom partnership. So anyway, Brian said yes. Mm-Hmm. . And then so over the phone we wrote a spec news radio back when people still did that. Yep. And News Radio had just been on the air. So we wanted to write a show that we loved and also that there weren't a ton of samples of other specs like that. Right. So we, this news radio early on and I gave it to Sue Nagle, she liked it. She gave it to Michael Whitehorn at Ned and Stacy. And we had one meeting Brian flew in from San Francisco. I showed up in my suit from being in an executive. I had to sneak out from Universal and not tell him where I was going. DidMichael Jamin:Michael White hard know you were an executive at the time? Yes, he did. HeSteve Baldikoski:Didn't think, but, but, but that was actually kind of a good thing because Brian was an ad executive. Mm-Hmm. and Ned of Ned and Stacy Right. Was an ad executive. And then also cuz I had, you know, funny corporate stories I think Michael liked that as well. And the fact he gets two people for a staff writer's salary.Michael Jamin:Were you afraid to leave your cushy job?Steve Baldikoski:Less so than Brian. I, if, if I flamed out, I could always go back to being an executive and, you know, that would be fine. Right. And, and in hindsight, that probably would've been the best thing that happened, everyone.Michael Jamin:But Yeah. I mean, itSteve Baldikoski:Wouldn't be here talking to you. I, I, I'd be living in Bermuda by now, .Michael Jamin:Oh, well, you know, learn.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. So, but unfortunately I made it through that year and then made it through the next like 25 years. And so, so that was my, that was my path. And, and it kind of happened really fast that I, so then Michael hired us after that meeting, and then I had to go tell my boss at Universal that not only was I looking for a job, but I had one and it was as a writer.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:And then, and so their business affairs made this big stink that they owned my half of my spec script.Michael Jamin:And what, what are they planning on doing with it?Steve Baldikoski:I, well, that, well, I, I asked them that and I think they were all gonna take my spot in the writer's room.Michael Jamin:Yeah. What you're, they have they own ha you're half of a worthless SPAC script that just got you a job. I don't know,Steve Baldikoski:Value it. It was a weird thing. But they,Michael Jamin:But businessSteve Baldikoski:Affairs won't hesitate toMichael Jamin:Sink a deal whenever possible. . Yes. We remove the joy out of a writer . We have a three hour phone call toSteve Baldikoski:Figure this out. And they, yes, they effectively did steal my joy of that moment,Michael Jamin:. Oh my God. And then, yeah. Then the rest was just one show after another, basically. AndSteve Baldikoski:Then, yeah. And yeah, it started out we got in, at the time there used to be the WB in, in U p n, the Paramount Network. I think like in that, in that time period, this is like 97, 98, there was like the peak of the sitcom. I think there were over 60 half hour sitcoms on the air. And then Brian and I rode that rollercoaster.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.So tell me about developing your last project.Steve Baldikoski:Okay, so the, the last project that I just developed I sold it to a ABC with 20th. Mm-Hmm. came to me because it was so personal to what I'm going through as a dad. Mm-Hmm. , my youngest kid is non-binary.Michael Jamin:Okay.Steve Baldikoski:And she she was born a girl, Vivian. And then around time, she was about the second grade, she came to us and said that she, she felt that she was a boy. Right. And so that led us down on this journey. You know, finding out, you know, like having a trans kid and non-binary kid and never knowing anything about it. Right. and that kind of led me to want to write about it after I broke up with my writing partner right at the start of Covid. And I was gonna have to write my first thing. So I was gonna write at first I was actually gonna develop step by step BA based on the same concept. I was unable to sell that to H B O Max mm-hmm. . so instead I redeveloped the idea of me being this like hapless dad sort of middle class working class guy in rural Wisconsin, which is where my mom's family is from.And then having this tomboy kid that he just loves more than anything. Hi. Her, his Maisie all of a sudden informs him that no her name is, she's now Hunter. And you're thinking this as a single camera comedy or what? This was a single camera comedy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was structured like a multicam, but, but really that was from, anyway, that was my speck. And what that led me to, to, to, to do is it got me the attention of other people who were in the non-binary trans world. So then ultimately I partnered just through meeting lots of people this woman named Billy Lee, who some people know because Billy Lee was on early seasons of Vander Pump Rules. Okay. and so it was kind of a, like a well-known person in, in the trans community.And then, so Billy Lee and her friend Priscilla had this idea about her own life, which is kind of almost too hard to believe is true. Billy Lee grew up in rural Indiana as a boy. Left home in 18, found out that he wasn't gay, he was actually a, she Right. And went through the surgeries and then, you know, a a lot of turmoil, but then returns back home and fell in love with her best male friend from junior high. And now they're together as an on and off couple. And so it was, how, how do I take that and turn that into a half hour comedy? I know it's a long wind up, but it's a great story that is almost hard to believe. Yeah. AndMichael Jamin:Was her best friend growing up.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. And so we pitched it really as a Netflix H b o Showtime show that would, would show that magic relationship and also have sex and, you know, things that I think would be hard, you know, relatively hard for a, you know, a regular network audience.Michael Jamin:And it's sold,Steve Baldikoski:But it sold to a b ABC because they wanted, there's this great, her relationship with her father is also really what it's about. Right. And it's, it, it is a fa is also a family show about how it took a trans woman to fix this broken Midwestern family.Michael Jamin:Right. AndSteve Baldikoski:Right in ABC's wheelhouse, youMichael Jamin:Know, where where is that now? At likeSteve Baldikoski:A, like a Connor's but with a strong trans element.Michael Jamin:And where is that right now?Steve Baldikoski:It's dead. Oh,Michael Jamin:Steve Baldikoski:Michael Jamin:With every other pilot.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. yeah. I, I, you know, I can't, I I can't entirely blame them. Like, it, it would be very amazing to see a, b, c put on a show about a trans woman and not have it be one of the peripheral characters.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:I, I, I think that's just a hard sell. Maybe if I was, you know, a more powerful writer, could, could you, you know, jam that down their throat? But I, I don't think, I think the subject matter was exactly their wheelhouse, but also maybe too, too on the bleeding edge for them.Michael Jamin:It, it feels a little like, you know, some somebody somewhere at that H B O show. I love that show. No. Oh yeah. It's a little sim it's it, and there's not trans, but it's, it's similar that, I don't know, that just remind me of It's great. It's a great show. Our friend Rob Cohen directs a bunch of those. Oh yeah.Steve Baldikoski:Oh, I'll have to check that out.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Great show. But, so then, okay, so then what, what else? Like, you, I mean, it's been a while since, you know, since Fuller House, but what was that like? I always ask this, what's it like working with the cuz a lot has changed since you and I broke in. Yes. What is it working on with like the, the new generation of writers?Steve Baldikoski:Well luckily at Four House I was still the new generation of writers . What wasn't thatMichael Jamin:Mean, wasn't that long ago.Steve Baldikoski:I, I still felt young on the show Uhhuh. Cause Cause we had people No, we, we had people who were older and Oh right. And you know, were around the early, theMichael Jamin:Original show.Steve Baldikoski:And so, so it was kind of great to feel like I was on the young side for once. Yeah. but I, I understand what you're, I understand what you're, what you're getting to are like in terms of how the room has changed from started to now, evenMichael Jamin:In terms of preparation because, you know, you can answer any way you want. But it, like, basically there was more when we were coming up, you were on a show for longer. There were more senior writers and you were constantly learning and you were never, I never, you were never like thrown into the hot wa hot water yet. But now I feel like these kids come in and there's no really training ground. There's no, there's even, you know, I think there's an article a couple days ago, there's no mentorship anymore becauseSteve Baldikoski:No, no, no, no, no. There, there isn't. And you know, that's too sad. I think that, I think content in general is as good as it's ever been. Mm-Hmm. . And yet that training system doesn't seem to exist. And I wish it did. When, when we first got in around the Ned and Stacy era, like there still was that you would still feel that like a showrunner would take someone mm-hmm. Under his wing, like Michael Whitehorn did with David Lit. Yep. And Shepherd that person cuz they would have multiple years of Ned and Stacy. And then luckily that turned into King of Queens. Mm-Hmm. and, and you know, soMichael Jamin:There were schools.Steve Baldikoski:Mike were together for a long time. That's the old model. I don't see that anymore. I wish it was there. Because to to be honest with you, like when Brian and I made the jump from co-executive producers of Fuller House to executive producers, it, it was like, we are being thrown to the wolves after 25 years. Yes. Because because of jumping from show to show, to show like younger writers do now all the time. I, I didn't learn those skills mm-hmm. . And so we didn't really know that much about editing, you know, sweetening like it, how's our camera coverage. Right. you know, all all of those little things that, you know, I had to, I had to learn them very, very quickly. And so luckily I had a, a great, you know, you know, crew that all wanted to help us as, you know, learn as well. But yeah, there is no system. I wish there wasMichael Jamin:Like, I even think like multi-camera, like you, back in the day, you'd come out of a school like we basically . We, we kind of came out of the Frazier school cause Levitan came outta Frazier, which came outta the cheer school. And it was like that kind of pedigree that you had and you're just learning from all those people. And then now, like, there's so few multi cams. Like if they were to bring back multi cams, well who's gonna do it? Who knows how to do it? Because it's different than doing a single camera.Steve Baldikoski:It's funny, it's funny you say that because that's why I'm calling onto the business. Yeah. that I'm hoping, I'm hoping that that we can stick around long enough that it will come back at some point. UhhuhMichael Jamin:. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:I, I love the format. Like, I mean that's, that's one of the things that like really me about Fuller House is you know, I was able to be there for like five years mm-hmm. . and I never really had to worry about, you know, job security and it, it was this amazing place and we, and there were fans of the show and, and it was just great to write for them. And so that spoiled me, you know, now that that kind of is, you know, has gone away now that Fuller house is no longer on the air. Friday night was my drug, you know, cuz you know, Friday night I love putting on a show every week and I miss that.Michael Jamin:Here's my pitch Fullest house. Pay me. That's,Steve Baldikoski:That's, that's a great idea. That's a great, I wonder, I wonder if anyone pitched that to me, before the day I started.Michael Jamin:I wonder if anybody pitched that to me. Your shitty joke. .Steve Baldikoski:So was it one of my low IQ children?Michael Jamin:. Well then, so then what do you do? So what do you do now? I mean you're obviously you're developing and, andSteve Baldikoski:So, so now I I'm, I'm working on a, a, a new multi-camera idea. I'm very excited aboutMichael Jamin:And Gone Steve Baldikoski:Haven'tMichael Jamin:Taken it out yet.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. no, I'm just, I I I, I think I finally ha I have the pilot story. I'm just trying to populate it with all the other, all the other things.Michael Jamin:Okay. And then, and thenSteve Baldikoski:With all the other characters cuz I basically started with the central character, Uhhuh . It is kind of high concept, but I don't wanna give it away. I I'll talk to you off camera about it. Okay. with the central character and then that led to a bigger world. Then populate that world kind of how to, how I want to, how I wanna fit tonally into that world. Like it's, it's, it's an idea that would, to me, it feels a little in the vein of what we do in the shadows.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:In terms of like a high concept comedy idea. And because I never worked for him, but like, my hero as a sitcom writer is Paul Sims.Michael Jamin:Okay.Steve Baldikoski:And it, you know, my first spec was Ned and Stacy. I mean, I, I was news Radio. Radio. Yeah. And which was run by Paul Sims, created by Paul Sims. And now he runs mm-hmm. . you know, what we do in the Shadows, which I just think is a brilliant, brilliant show.Michael Jamin:So then what do you have, what advice do you have for people? Do you have any advice for people trying to get into the business now? Well,Steve Baldikoski: that's why I'm here. I thought I was seeking advice from you. Yeah.Michael Jamin:You thought you were a, a job.Steve Baldikoski:I thought people were gonna, I thought people were gonna call in and tell me what to do with my life.Michael Jamin:Yeah, exactly.Steve Baldikoski:I, I mean the, the number one thing is like, if you want to be a writer, I think you probably have to move to LA maybe New York. But if you want to be in TV comedy, I think you have to be in LA Yeah. That's the first thing you have to do is move here and then write all, you can write things that make you laugh. Right. That abuse you, because no one else will probably enjoy it. So you might as well, you might as well . And, and also, and also I think you, you, you have to get creative, you know I think social media is a great way to get noticed.Michael Jamin:Mm-Hmm. ,Steve Baldikoski:My wife happens to be an executive on the TV side, and she bought the Twitter feed shit, my dad says when she wasMichael Jamin:Wild. And that was gotta be 10 years ago now.Steve Baldikoski:And Yes. And I, and I think that was like the first thing that a network executive or that a network has like, bought something on, like no one was buying a Twitter feed at the time. Right. And, and I thought that was pretty clever that Wendy started looking at things like that. And I, I think that's a great place to get noticed. Yeah,Michael Jamin:I agree.Steve Baldikoski:Especially for young comedy writers. Does sheMichael Jamin:Still do that? Does she still actively, does she look on social media for other people like that?Steve Baldikoski:She does that. She also she flips through, they get they get proposals of books that are coming out. Not even books that have been written, but just titles of book proposals sometimes.Michael Jamin:Really. AndSteve Baldikoski:She has scanned through that and bought a series based on one of the blurbs that she read aboutMichael Jamin:That I'veSteve Baldikoski:Never heard that. That was, that that was actually the show Atory.Michael Jamin:I Okay. Cuz that's a good title. ISteve Baldikoski:Never heard thatMichael Jamin:Before. So I would, I would, I've always, cause my advice to given people is, well, it's gotta be a bestselling book, but you're sayingSteve Baldikoski:Oh, oh, oh. I'm not, oh, I'm not suggesting that's a way to get noticed,Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:To, to write a book. Although it's not a bad idea. If you have a great life story, write a book or put it on TikTok.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:I think, I think just if you have a comic voice, there are a million ways to get it out there. Yeah. and my dear friend, a guy named David Arnold was a writer on Filler House and just started showing, you know, doing TikTok videos of, of him and his wife and kids. And then he, like, I think Ellen DeGeneres was the first to share one of his videos, and then that blew up for him. And then he ended up, he was getting sponsored and he was a, he was a standup comic and it was helping out with his standup business. Yeah. And so at the age of, you know, 53, he was discovered on new media, you know, andMichael Jamin:And what would hasSteve Baldikoski:Become little tiny sketches about his family.Michael Jamin:Oh, I, let's talk about Kirsty, which was you, you were, to me, that was a lot of fun. So that was a Kirsty Alley show. Yeah. And you guys brought us in. They needed a a freelance. I don't know why they, but they wanted to have somebody freelance even though you got a, a great writing staff. Oh,Steve Baldikoski:.Michael Jamin:And I like, we're like, we'll do it. And thenSteve Baldikoski:I think, I think our, I think I think your agent said that your teeth were falling out and if you didn't write a script for the medical Oh,Michael Jamin:Not at all. Honestly,Steve Baldikoski:That show,Michael Jamin:Because that was a bunch of heavy hitters on that show. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. We were only sat, we only sat in for a couple days. We walked you guys, we walked in and then you guys said, okay, here's the story. We, we broke it, kind of go write it. We're like, okay. And but it was a, itSteve Baldikoski:Was to start Ted Damson. Sson.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And, and then, and Marco punted it for se the next season thinking it was gonna be a season two Marco, there's no season two . You don't punt that. You shoot it today before, before they pull the plug. Steve Baldikoski:The old, we will use this we'll use scripts season two. Yeah.Michael Jamin:The old season twoSteve Baldikoski:Trick. I don't know if that was him being tricked or you being tricked.Michael Jamin:Honestly, we had a great time. It wasSteve Baldikoski:A great script. It was a greatMichael Jamin:Script. It was fun. It was just fun sitting in with a bunch of people. Yeah, well, a bunch of writers that I respected. SoSteve Baldikoski:No, that was an amazing, that was an amazing experience. I, I, we like Claris Leachman did the show. Mm-Hmm. like some really, you know we, we wrote an episode for John Travolta. Yeah.Michael Jamin:And was it Michael Richards and Ria Pearlman. And it was like, these are good, these are heavy hitters, these are great actors. So, andSteve Baldikoski:The, the night that Claris Leachman did the show, we went out for drinks afterwards, Uhhuh with her. And I ended up sitting next to Kirsty Allie's assistant. And it wasn't until about 10 minutes into my conversation when she mentioned reincarnation, that I realized that I was talking to a high level Scientologist. And then I, and then I noticed she was doing all these Scientology tricks with me, like deep deeply staring into my eyes and not blinking until I blink. It was, it was, it was very bizarre.Michael Jamin:Wow. I I think we can,Steve Baldikoski:That's, that, that's, that's a good enough reason to become a sitcom writer is Yeah. To have someone do Scientology mind tricks on you. ThoseMichael Jamin:Are, that those are all these, those are always good stories when you Yeah. Can you go hang out on the past? Hang out. Yeah. And then what aboutSteve Baldikoski:When, when Clarus Leachman is far from the craziest person at the table? .Michael Jamin:She was, she was pretty wild. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:Michael Jamin:Did I ever work? I'm trying to remember if I ever worked with her on something. I think I did, but I can't remember what it was.Steve Baldikoski:Gotta be. Just, just shoot me.Michael Jamin:It might have been. I don't remember. I, I, you know, but Okay. Well let's get to baby, let's get to the, what everyone wants to talk about Baby Bob.Steve Baldikoski:Oh,Michael Jamin:, let's go. YouSteve Baldikoski:Saved the best for last.Michael Jamin:I saved the best for last. Let's talk about baby. Well,Steve Baldikoski:I, I believe that Baby Bob was the highest rated show that I've ever been on,Michael Jamin:But they canceled it so fast.Steve Baldikoski:They canceled it. Yes. I think that was a, that was a disconnect where the high, high ups meaning like Les Moon vest when he was running CBSs, I think he wanted Baby Bob to be on the air. Oh. And so that he developed it like two or three times with multiple casts.Michael Jamin:Right. We gotta have a talking baby.Steve Baldikoski:And it was, and, but the, but the Talking baby always stayed the same based on these commercials. Was it Geico? Yes. I think his Geico commercials with the baby Ba with Baby Bob interviewing Shaq Yeah. Is, it's the concept that got everyone all hot and bothered. And so, so Les Moonves bought the show. This is my version of the story, I'm sure it's only partially accurate. But he didn't really include the lower level executives who absolutely hated the show. And so, as Brian and I got hired on the show, we thought, Hey, it's a c b s show. They must like the show. But the reaction from the executives after every table read was basically, how dare you,Michael Jamin:How dare how dare you have the baby talk? How dare you. WhatSteve Baldikoski:Like, just everything about the show seemed to offend the, the c bs executives incivility who were in charge of the show.Michael Jamin:Were, were there anything advertised guys in it? Were they involved at all?Steve Baldikoski:No, not, I don't think so. Kenny Kenny Campbell is the voice and mouth of the baby. Uhhuh . And then actually I didn't know much about babies when I was on the show, but then now when I look back, I realize how creepy it is that a baby has a full set of adult teeth. Yeah. Yeah. That are prominent. If I saw a baby like that in real life, I would run.Michael Jamin:Do you think that was the problem with the show? Steve Baldikoski:, this is the baby's teeth? Well, well the Mike Saltzman, my dear friend who Yeah. Saltman created the show, described it as Frazier, and they happened to have a talking baby.Michael Jamin:The other, so the other Oh, Freeman was Frazier had, okay. Frazier. All right.Steve Baldikoski:And they just happened to have a talking baby. IMichael Jamin:SaltmanSteve Baldikoski:That was, that was Mike'sMichael Jamin:And what, what were the writers do? Did, yeah.Steve Baldikoski:I don't have a lot of memories. . Okay.Michael Jamin:SoSteve Baldikoski:There were a lot of late nights and one night, I think it was about midnight, that I got into a shouting match with one of the other writers about whether or not Baby Bob was a genius.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:And the other writer was taking the stance of he's not a genius, he's only talking at six months. Mozart was writing symphonies at, at five or seven, and I was shouting and I was yelling about the other side that Mozart was not talking at sick at six months.Michael Jamin:And was everyone looking at you both outta your mind? ?Steve Baldikoski:Yes. Like, it's midnight. Can I go home?Michael Jamin:Can I go home? How get the baby to dance? That's all.Steve Baldikoski:But, but, but, but, but I mean, part of the lesson there is even a show that you think is so, so simple or terrible that you could write it in it, in its in your sleep. Uhhuh . It's not that way. No. No. Because even a show like that is very hard to write. Yes.Michael Jamin:Yes. BecauseSteve Baldikoski:You have so many layers of people to Please,Michael Jamin:Yes. People ask me is they say is a, is a, is a great show. Hard to write than a bad show. No, they're all, they're all kind of hard to write for different reasons. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:And that, that was, I mean, definitely a lesson. And then another lesson was despite what we felt like, I like it, it is sort of embarrassing to be on a show like Baby Bob when you're on the Paramount lot and then the Frazier Golf Cart drives by and you're in the same business, but you're not in the same business. But when it came to the ratings, baby Bob did huge in the ratings. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like one of the top, I think it's one of the top new comedies that year.Michael Jamin:And that's so interesting. And, and that's, that's the thing people don't realize as well, is that you, you may be a great writer, but if you're in this lane, it's hard to get out of that lane cuz that's how people see you. Yes. And if you're in a great, even if you're even a bad writer on a great show, now you're in that lane. You're in a great ri you're, you know, you, you're inflated. So Yeah. Yeah. yeah. People don't quite realize that.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah.Michael Jamin:And you take, you gotta take the job, you gotta get you, but you take the job you get, you know, so Yeah. And,Steve Baldikoski:And, and you really, and you really don't know if it's gonna pan out.Michael Jamin:No.Steve Baldikoski:Like I remember talking to Al Jane and Mike Reese mm-hmm. when we worked with them and asking them when they got started, they started on the, started on The Simpsons I think coming off of Gary Shaline show and when they were pitched coming on to do this cartoon on Fox.Michael Jamin:Right.Steve Baldikoski:They thought, I think that they thought it was, it was not good for their career.Michael Jamin:It would kill their career. Yeah. And, and now it would make no difference, honestly. Now you what? You take a job, you know, whatever job you can get, you take a job, you know? Yeah. But back then you could make decisions. You could make choices.Steve Baldikoski:Yes. Yeah. I, yeah. And, and interestingly, like back when Brian and I were making lists of shows, we would wanna be on Uhhuh, Simpsons was like a C-level list at the time.Michael Jamin:Uhhuh Really? CauseSteve Baldikoski:We liked it, but we thought it was imminently. We, we didn't, no one still knew it was gonna be on the airMichael Jamin:40 years later.Steve Baldikoski:Yeah. And you know, cuz cuz being on The Simpsons, I think it was like uncool. Then it became cool, then it was uncool.Michael Jamin:Well, in a way it's a little bit of, it's almost golden handcuffs if you're on the Cho. That that's if you're on the Simpsons now, you you're not gonna leave. Yeah. Cause it's job security and get ready to, for writing Bart jokes for the rest of your career, you know. Yeah.Steve Baldikoski:But the crazy thing is that there are writers who are still there, who were there when I was in the mail room at United Town. Sure.Michael Jamin:Yeah. SoSteve Baldikoski:Th there are peopleMichael Jamin:Who, they've made a career at it who,Steve Baldikoski:Yes. So I was in the, I was on the business side of the business. I became an executive and then I was a writer for 25 years. Yeah. And they're still doing the job from the day I got into the business.Michael Jamin:It's so interesting. It's just so, yeah. It's, and I would think creatively it's hard, but you know, you, but the money will make, will make you feel better. You know,Steve Baldikoski:Money makes a lot of things feel better.Michael Jamin:You crying for your 50? Is there a 50 bill? . I wouldn't know what a 50 bill looks like. Fascinating. Dude, thank you so much. We have a good chat. We had a good time.Steve Baldikoski:Steve. Thanks for having me.Michael Jamin:Thank you so much. This is, I, I don't know, I'm always fascinating in, in learning people's journeys and how they got there and so thank you so much for, for being on my little show.Steve Baldikoski:Thank you. And hopefully you have stuff that you don't have to cut.Michael Jamin:Oh, , sorry folks. If you heard the version that, the edited version, we had a trash, a lot of stuff. ,Steve Baldikoski:.Michael Jamin:All right everyone, thank you so much. Remember, we offer, we got a lot of great stuff for you on my website. You can get on my newsletter, you get my free all that stuff. Go to michaeljamin.com and find out what we got there. And I got another webinar coming up. All right everyone, thanks so much. Until next, next week, keep writing.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode where screenwriters need to hear this with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Get another inside scoop of what it's like to work in Hollywood as Michael Jamin sits down and talks with Eric Fogel, a DreamWorks animator.Show NotesEric Fogel Website: https://www.eric-fogel.com/Eric Fogel Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_FogelIMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0283888/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TranscriptEric Fogel (00:00):You gotta have, you know, there's, there are a couple of key ingredients, right? You, you gotta have the passion, right. For it, for the craft. You have to have the ability mm-hmm. to have, to have the skills. Michael Jamin (00:14):But you didn't have the ability when you started. Right?Eric Fogel (00:18):I had some ability.Michael Jamin (00:19):Some ability. AndEric Fogel (00:20):I kind of, yeah. I mean, a lot of it is you, you have to immerse yourself and you have to just make things. And you have to learn as you make things. You can't, you know, you can watch YouTube videos all day long, but you gotta like, just get in it.Michael Jamin (00:35):You're listening to Screenwriters Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.Michael Jamin (00:43):Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. This is the podcast that it's not just for screenwriters. Cuz I, I have a special guest today. This is my friend and once collaborator Eric Fogel. And he, we were, we were debating like, how do I, how do I introduce him? Cuz he does so much. He's a writer, he's a director, he's an animator. He's now a dreamworks. And Eric Fogel's now gonna tell us is how, how, how all this works. He's gonna explain to me, Eric Fogel, thank you so much for being on the show. Say hi. Hello.Eric Fogel (01:13):Hello. Hello. Hello.Michael Jamin (01:15):You're not an actor though. That's the one thing you, that's the one credit you don't get.Eric Fogel (01:19):I do a little voice acting.Michael Jamin (01:20):Do you do, doEric Fogel (01:21):You know I've done, yeah, I, yeah, I I actually got my SAG card. Yeah.Michael Jamin (01:25):ReallyEric Fogel (01:27):Little, little.Michael Jamin (01:28):So, so for everyone's listening, so Eric and I worked together years ago on a show called Glen Martin dds, which he cr co-created. And on that show, he was the he was one of the, he directed with me, directed the animation. He was in charge of all the designs, all the character designs. And then he had the misfortune of having to fly back and forth from Los Angeles to Toronto, like every week to oversee the animation focal. How did that, how, how did that all come about? How did, how did you sell that show? How did it come about that show?Eric Fogel (02:01):Man so yeah, I think I was, I was in town. I was, you know, I was living in New York at the time, and so I, I was I, I did a trip out here to, to LA to do like, around the meetings. And I was, I was in my I was up in my manager's office and the, the owner of the company, Gotham sh just kind of walked by and she goes, oh, yeah, he should meet Scoop,Michael Jamin (02:31):Right?Eric Fogel (02:31):And I'm like, what the fuck is a scoop? Can I say ? Is that all right?Michael Jamin (02:37):We all, we're all thinking of it.Eric Fogel (02:38):Yeah. Yeah. What's, what's a Scoop scoop?Eric Fogel (02:43):That was my, so that was my introduction. So yeah, we, we set up a meeting, I met with Scoop in LA on that same trip, I think it was my last meeting. And they had a scriptMichael Jamin (02:55):Just a, so Scoop was a, the nickname of one of the executive producers, or Michael Eisner's company.Eric Fogel (02:59):Scoop is a human. Yeah. He was, I guess running development for Michael Eisner's company, which was Tornante. Yeah, right. And they had, they had a script. They had like a version of a pilot that was written by Alex Berger. Right, right. And you know, it was still pretty rough at that time. It needed, needed some love. And, you know, there was no, there were no designs. You know, there was nothing there. But couple weeks later I met, I g I met with Michael Eisner in New York, and we sat down, we started talking about this project, and he had seen some stuff on my reel, and he saw some, some stop motion that I did, you know, I created Celebrity Death Match. So I think he was aware of, of that. But I, I did this other show called Star Val with a studio called Cup of Coffee in Toronto.Michael Jamin (03:51):I didn't realize that was Cuppa, but Wait, hold on. Was that, was, was what Network was surveillance onEric Fogel (03:56):EMichael Jamin (03:57):E. So I wanna, I wanna slow this down. Yeah. I wanna interrupt you for a second. So celebrity Death Match was like a huge hit. I was on MTV for a couple seasons, right? Yeah. And it was a stop motion animation, and you were in charge, and you create, created that with custom and you were in charge of the a It was a big, it was like a big deal for like, I don't know, 10 minutes, but it was .Eric Fogel (04:17):Yeah, no, we, we, we, we ran for Yeah. A couple years and, you know, close to a hundred episodes a lot.Michael Jamin (04:23):So, all right. But then, okay, so back it up and how, cuz you have a very unusual career because you kind of, you've carved a career for yourself that doesn't really, it doesn't even exist really. You know, not many people who do what you've done. Like, how, how did you start when you were a kid? Did you wanna, what did you wanna be?Eric Fogel (04:41):I, I knew I wanted to be in the film business in some way. I think, you know, when I was, you know, I was always drawing like little comic books when I was a kid. And these, these comic books were basically storyboards.Michael Jamin (04:54):Right. Eric is really good, talented artist. So that, I should mention that Illustra Illustrate. I don't know what you would call yourself. You're good though. Go on. You're okay.Eric Fogel (05:03):But by the time I was like, you know, in, in high school, I, I sort of learned that there was like, you could actually go to school to learn how to make films. Yeah. You know, like, there was such a thing. And, and I became aware of, you know, Y u and that, that sort of became my, you know, the thing that was driving me. I even before that, I started taking some film while I was still in high school. I took a couple film classes at, at school of Visual Arts, just taking college level classes there while, you know, still still a kid in high school and starting to like, figure out how to make, make films and, you know, put stuff together. And then I gotMichael Jamin (05:42):Live, it wasn't stop motion, it wasn't animation, it was just film.Eric Fogel (05:45):It was live action. I was still, I was also experimenting, you know, I got, I got a super eight camera, so I was trying, I was trying some stop motion. I was doing like, hand drawn animation. I was just trying everything I want. I was just absorbing everything. Yeah. You know? And yeah. And then got accepted to NYU and inMichael Jamin (06:05):The film program.Eric Fogel (06:06):Film program. Okay. 19. Yeah. Graduated class of 91.Michael Jamin (06:13):91.Eric Fogel (06:13):And, you know, I was pretty prolific there. Like they, I think they only required you to make, to finish like one film. And I ended up making four, finishing four films. Two were live action and two were animated. Right. And one of the animated films was this really violent like a post-apocalyptic thing. It was called The Mutilated. I've heard ofMichael Jamin (06:39):It. Ok.Eric Fogel (06:40):That, yeah, there's actually a,Michael Jamin (06:42):Well, look, you gotta sell. Okay.Eric Fogel (06:44):Yeah. There's a mu later.Michael Jamin (06:46):That's from, and that was from a college?Eric Fogel (06:48):Yeah, this was my college. This was my college film. Mutilate. But the, so this film got got licensed to like a, an animated like a film festivalMichael Jamin (07:02):Called, well, you, wait, you submitted it to a film festival. What doEric Fogel (07:04):They They saw it, they saw it in the Y U Circuit. Okay. Cause premiered there. And then they reached out to me and they said, we wanna a license Mutilators to be, it was a Spike and Mike spike and Mike's Festival of Animation.Michael Jamin (07:19):Right.Eric Fogel (07:20):AndMichael Jamin (07:21):So they paid you forEric Fogel (07:22):It? They, they wrote me a check, and that was the first time, you know, someone was like, paying me to, to make a thing.Michael Jamin (07:30):And then what happened?Eric Fogel (07:31):So I said, all right, that, that worked well. I want to keep doing that. So I just kept making, making like little short films. And I, I licensed a couple more to, to those guys, to the Spike and Mike Festival. And they would do this thing where they would, they would option the film, but they would also give you like com like a little money to, to finish the film. Which was, which was pretty, you know, it's not a, not a great deal. But it was, at that timeMichael Jamin (07:59):It was, these were like shorts, right?Eric Fogel (08:01):Yeah. Yeah. Just shorts. But, you know, you would send them, like, you could send them like a pencil test, and then they, they'd say like, here's a couple grand to finish it. And then, then they would like show it in their, their circuit.Michael Jamin (08:15):So, all right. So then, but you're okay, you're selling some stuff. It's got after college, you're not making a fortune. Yeah. You're, but you also have like a day job.Eric Fogel (08:24):I was I was hired. So I started working in a, in a small animation studio in New York, Uhhuh at that time. And I was learning, you know, just learning stuff. So one of the one of the directors at that studio he, he had a little problem with substance, substance abuse problem. Interesting. I'm not gonna mention any, any names, but he would, he would spend a lot of time just sleeping, sleeping it off. Yeah. And I, and he and I would, I would be animating his shots. And that's how I learned a lot of, a lot of stop motion. It was, it was like a stop motion studio. And I learned a lot. SoMichael Jamin (09:01):You, so you're right. So this is before computer animation, really. You're just kind of you're drawing, you're basically cell by frame By frame.Eric Fogel (09:07):Yeah. Yeah. And just using like a big old Mitchell 35 millimeter camera, just frame one frame at a time.Michael Jamin (09:14):And then, okay, so you did that for a little bit, then what happened?Eric Fogel (09:17):So at, so at the same time, I'm still making these little short films eventually.Michael Jamin (09:23):What was the point of making these short films, though? They're not adding slide actionEric Fogel (09:26):To get a reel together. So, so you to have like a sample sample of your, your stuff. Right. So eventually this real end ends up on the desk at the president of MTV Animation.Michael Jamin (09:40):How, how did it wind up there?Eric Fogel (09:42):I don't know.Michael Jamin (09:44):, but this is a good point. Like, cuz you're just putting your work out there. Yeah. And it's gonna, and it's good. So it's making the rounds, right?Eric Fogel (09:51):Yeah. It's, well, it's, it's, it's making the rounds. I don't know if it's good, but PE people are, there's no, but if itMichael Jamin (09:58):Wasn't good, they wouldn't pass it along. I mean, that's the truth.Eric Fogel (10:01):Yeah. Well, it, it was something, you know, at that time, M T V was, you know, animation was brand new and they, they were looking, you know, they were just looking for weird shit. Yeah. You know, and they saw, they, you know, they probably saw this, this spike in Mike festival and, and you know, like liquid television was becoming a thing. Right, right. And so they were hungry for stuff and, you know, just weird stuff. Right. And I, you know, I had some weird stuff on my reel.Michael Jamin (10:27):Yeah, you did. Well, yeah. And so, okay, so then what happened?Eric Fogel (10:31):So they, so M T v made, made me a deal to option this mutilated.Michael Jamin (10:37):Okay. AndEric Fogel (10:37):The plan was to have the, the Mutilators character appear within the Beavis and Butthead show. Mm-Hmm. . And, and it would be like, it was gonna be like this thing that they were gonna watch on tv and it was gonna be this cool thing that they liked. Right. Kind of fit, fit with their, their thing. Yeah. And then something, something tragic happened there were, there were some kids out west somewhere who burned their family's trailer down. And they said they, they learned how to, like, about fire from Beavis and Butthead.Michael Jamin (11:15):Oh, I, I At least it wasn't mutilated.Eric Fogel (11:18):No, no. But this created this whole wave, like this backlash. And all of a sudden MTV got scared and they said, oh, you know, we got, we can't, we have to be careful. And Mutilators was like violent. Yeah. Even though it was, it was sci-fi it was fantasy violence. It wasn't real. Yeah. But they were, they were just, they got cold feet. So I went to this meeting knowing that they were gonna shit can Mutilators and, and I had already set up like a little studio in my, in my house at, on Long Island, and I was like in production on this thing. So I was, I was nervous. Yeah. So I go to this meeting and, and Mike Judge is actually there. Mike Judge, the creator of Beavis and Butthead, he's, he's in this meeting and they're like, Eric, you know, we we're not, we can't go forward with Mutilators, but we, we like you, do you have anything else?(12:08):And I, I had this storyboard. I actually brought it to that meeting. And this, it was for this other thing that I had come up with about this guy with like a giant head and, and an alien that lived inside of this head. And it was like, about the symbiotic relationship Yeah. Between a guy, a guy, and an alien. And my judge, I just, I'll never forget this. He was kind of like hanging back and he was looking at my drawings and he was just laughing. Yeah. And these other two MTV execs were like, oh, Mike, Mike likes it. We should buy this. And they did and,Michael Jamin (12:44):And Muo was that,Eric Fogel (12:45):That was called the Head. Right. And that was it was part of like, it was called MTV's Oddities.Michael Jamin (12:51):Uhhuh .Eric Fogel (12:51):And that was, I was like 24 or 25. And that was the first show that I ran as a creator.Michael Jamin (12:58):But this is the kind of, this speaks to which is so important. It's like you were making this stuff because you were making it, and you were, it wasn't like, it wasn't even like, you weren't trying to sell that you were just making, you had, you have to have stuff to have.Eric Fogel (13:09):I had an idea.Michael Jamin (13:10):Right. And you worked on it. You didn't wait to get paid on it. You worked on it.Eric Fogel (13:14):Yeah.Michael Jamin (13:15):Right. And so, and you were, you were right. Did you have a small staff on that show?Eric Fogel (13:20):Yeah, we had, you know, we had a full staffMichael Jamin (13:23):On that and now was at Outta New York.Eric Fogel (13:26):We, we did, we ran the, the show out of, yeah. Out of MTV Animation in Midtown Manhattan. Wow. You know, set up shop there. I wrote, and I wrote an and show around that show with a, I had a, a writing partner at that time. And yeah, we wrote all the episodes and it was, it was wonderful because it was like, it's not like now, like, it was like, they were hands off, like creatively. They were like, yeah, great. It's great. Just do it. Do it. Do what you want. Do what you want.Michael Jamin (13:57):Interesting. That's so interesting. Wow. And then, and then at what point was this? Is there, what point did you make a leap to LA? Or, or am I missing something in between?Eric Fogel (14:05):Yeah, so I, you know, I stuck it out. So after the head, I did Celebrity Death Match.Michael Jamin (14:10):Right. That was outta New York.Eric Fogel (14:11):And then, you know, I continued working at small studios in New York. MTV animation closed, like shortly after nine 11, they shuttered. And, you know, business in New York kind of started to dry up after nine 11.Michael Jamin (14:27):There wasn't, there was never even a lot of business in New York. But I didn't even, you know,Eric Fogel (14:30):You No, but there was, yeah, there was, you know, m there was M T V and then there was some small commercial studios there. And I continued working at some of those smaller studios. You know, and we, all our family was there, so Right. We were sort of resisting the, the, the big move to, to la And then finally in 2008 when Glen Martin happened, and we made the move.Michael Jamin (14:54):Right. With your whole family. Yes. And then you flew back to tra that was the tragic part. If you had only stayed in New York, , your flight would've been soEric Fogel (15:02):Much. Yeah. I was like, honey, here's, here's our house kids. There's, there's your rooms. I gotta go. You guys figure it out.Michael Jamin (15:11):Enjoy the sunshine.Eric Fogel (15:13):My, my wife's still, she, you know, she, she's still pissed at me. We, no, we love each other, but No, it was, it was a tough move. We didn't know anybody here in la. Right. You know, it was a big, it was a big, big adjustment. And yeah, it was bit a shock.Michael Jamin (15:29):What does she think of it now? Is she happy you're here or No,Eric Fogel (15:31):I think, yeah, we've, we've made our peace with it. You know, we still miss our family. Our families are still all back east. Yeah. but we, we feel like it was a good thing for our family, you know, for our kids.Michael Jamin (15:44):Oh, you think so? You think they're, they're probably getting ready for college now. Your kids?Eric Fogel (15:48):Oh, they're almost done.Michael Jamin (15:50):They're almost done withEric Fogel (15:50):Cops. Well, one is, yeah. One our oldest is out. He's already graduated. And our, we have twin girls and they're graduating this this year.Michael Jamin (15:57):Oh God. We'll talk about that one. I know. Wonder what that's gonna happen. What happened there? Okay, so then, and then, alright. We did Glen Martin. And the thing about that is, so my partner and I were siber, we write these episodes. We come into your office and say, this is, this is the crazy that the craziest job you ever No, probably not. Cuz we would give you an assignment, like, this is the, what does this character look like in your head? Then you'd sketch a design and then we'd maybe give you notes or not. And then you'd run off. Then you'd fly to Toronto and they started a animated this thing. And you had to oversee every time there was a problem, we'd yell at you . And, and then you'd have to fixEric Fogel (16:33):It. Then I go yell at them and you'dMichael Jamin (16:35):Yell at them. And there was, yeah. There was always problems. It's always you know, because it's a, it's such a long process to, it took, you know, nine months to animate that show.Eric Fogel (16:43):That that show. I mean, there will never be another show like that. Right.Michael Jamin (16:49):Why do you feel that way?Eric Fogel (16:50):It was, I mean, just the concept was super ambitious, right? Yeah. You got, you got a family, you know, traveling from, from town to town every episode. Yeah. So every single episode you have to build a brand new world for this family to play in. Yeah. Right. That's a huge amount to build. And you have to build it all from scratchMichael Jamin (17:16):There. And there was a lot, we also did a lot of CGI on. We, not a lot. Some, you know, not,Eric Fogel (17:21):Not a lot.Michael Jamin (17:22):The mouses, the mouses, and also sometimes the backgrounds. Right. We would doEric Fogel (17:26):We would do some green screen. We'd do green screen. But, but a lot of those, I mean, most of those sets were, were Yeah. Physical, practical, physical models.Michael Jamin (17:36):I have all, I still have my dolls, just so you know. They're all here.Eric Fogel (17:40):Oh, hey, wait, IMichael Jamin (17:41):Got one. You have more. I remember when you had, you had your dolls. I was like, how do I get a hand? How do I get my hand on someone? Focals Dolls Eric Fogel (17:48):There.Michael Jamin (17:49):How Steal your dog. Which one's that? What's, oh, wait, but is that, was that from Glen? What was he, what was that?Eric Fogel (17:54):That hok? Honk Hawks The Clown. The Killer Clown. That'sMichael Jamin (17:57):Oh, we see What episode was that?Eric Fogel (17:59):I don't know. Sunshine. Fun, fun, fun. Bill Hawks.Michael Jamin (18:02):The Killer Clown did. There's so much about that show. I don't even remember.Eric Fogel (18:04):Remember who did The Voice?Michael Jamin (18:07):Who?Eric Fogel (18:08):Ty Burrell.Michael Jamin (18:09):That was Ty. Dude. We can you imagine We directed some amazing, amazing, remember we did, we directed Brian Cranston. Yep. When he was coming off break, he was doing BreakingEric Fogel (18:19):Bad. Still doing it. Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin (18:21):And he loved it. He's like, this is great.Eric Fogel (18:24):. He was amazing. We almost, we almost had a spinoffMichael Jamin (18:28):With him. Yes. Hi. That's him over here. Yeah. That'sEric Fogel (18:32):Drake Stone.Michael Jamin (18:34):That was a bummer. That didn't happen.Eric Fogel (18:36):Yep.Michael Jamin (18:36):Yep. Oh, well,Eric Fogel (18:38):But the cat, yeah. I, I mean we should talk about some of the other day players on that show because I meanMichael Jamin (18:45):Yeah, we, I mean it was amazing. The cat, we Every,Eric Fogel (18:48):Every day. Mel Brooks.Michael Jamin (18:50):Mel Brooks. Right.Eric Fogel (18:51):Billy Idol.Michael Jamin (18:53):Billy Idol. I don't remember Billy Idol.Eric Fogel (18:55):. He did a, he did the Christmas episode and he sang a song. He sang aMichael Jamin (18:59):Oh, right. Maybe it wasn't there. That I remember we had friend Drescher. Yeah. Remember were you there thatEric Fogel (19:04):Day? Yep.Michael Jamin (19:05):And we couldn't get her Remember? So, so Erica, we direct together, we'd whispered each other and it's not quite right. How did we get her to do, you know? And then I remember we finally walked up to her cuz she wasn't, the character wasn't quite white. And I was said, listen, can you do the nanny? She's like, oh sure. And then the then she started basically doing the nanny.Eric Fogel (19:23):You want the nanny,Michael Jamin (19:25):You want the nanny. You kind of, youEric Fogel (19:26):Want it, youMichael Jamin (19:27):Don't wanna ask. You wanna, you don't really wanna ask. You wanna get them there. Yeah. You know, I don't wanna insult her, but she was like, delight French. She was so sweet.Eric Fogel (19:35):Alison Jenny, she was great. She an Alexander.Michael Jamin (19:38):Yep.Eric Fogel (19:39):George Decay.Michael Jamin (19:40):Decay.Eric Fogel (19:42):My God. Fergie.Michael Jamin (19:44):Yep. Yep.Eric Fogel (19:47):I meanMichael Jamin (19:47):So much. Mc Hammer, we remember we had Mc HammerEric Fogel (19:50):Pen. GilletteMichael Jamin (19:51):Pen Gillette. I forgot. She's the what? A Oh my God.Eric Fogel (19:54):Was Jean Simmons.Michael Jamin (19:57):. Jean Simmons. Yeah. I remember that. . That was a day. And then, okay, so then once, once Glen Martin went down. Yeah. What happened to you then?Eric Fogel (20:08):? I don't know. What happened. So, you know, it was, that was a sort of a tricky time because I, I, I had to kind of reinvent myself. Did.Michael Jamin (20:20):Right.Eric Fogel (20:20):I was here in town. We did that show. That show was ama you know, it was an amazing experience, but nobody fucking saw it.Michael Jamin (20:29):Right,Eric Fogel (20:29):Right.Michael Jamin (20:30):And no one understood what you did on it either, because you create, you, you, you kind of invented a, you were a necessary incredibly important cog. But who, how do you describe, you know, how do you describe it to people? I, cause I'm even asking you, well, you were, you were one of the executive producers, but I'm almost like, well, what was your ion job? I mean, what, that was your job title, but it'd be, it'd be hard for me to describe what you did. Cause you did so much.Eric Fogel (20:53):Yeah. I mean, I guess on that show I was, I was more of a directing showrunner.Michael Jamin (20:58):Is that what you would call it?Eric Fogel (20:59):If you Yeah. Because, you know, I feel like there are some categories, right, with show like showrunners. So there are writing showrunners, which I consider like you and cber were like the writing showrunners. And I was on that show. More of a, the directing maybeMichael Jamin (21:14):Actually May in King of the Hill. I think they would call it a supervising director. Is that what you wereEric Fogel (21:18):Maybe. I mean, I don'tMichael Jamin (21:21):Supervise all the directors,Eric Fogel (21:22):Basically. It's different. Yeah. I guess there's, they're different credits.Michael Jamin (21:26):Yeah. I re Yeah, it was hard. It was a hard, there was so much for you to oversee. It was crazy.Eric Fogel (21:34):Yeah. And it's, I mean, and, and I love that. Like, that's, for me, that's what I do. It's soup to nuts, just mm-hmm. every, every piece of the production, I just, I I like to have a hand in holiday.Michael Jamin (21:50):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.Michael Jamin (22:14):So how did you reinvent yourself? Like what does that mean really?Eric Fogel (22:17):So I was here in town and after Glenn Martin, you know, there were, we had a, there were a couple things, but a couple things fell through. We were gonna do, there was another show mm-hmm. that I, I was developing with to, and it was this was weird. But we, this we, we developed this show alongside BoJack. Right. So it was like Scoop was working on, on BoJack. And then we had this other project and we, we actually sold this other project to a network. We had like, like an a, an agree, like an accepted offer. And it looked like it was going forward until the head of the studio just decided, eh, didn't wanna do animation.Michael Jamin (23:01):Yeah.Eric Fogel (23:02):That happened. So that, that got killed. And so I had to find some, some work. I ended up directing a show at Nickelodeon and it was a CG show. Mm-Hmm. . So I wanted to, it was, it was more of a kids show. Right. And it was, you know, I wanted to have the experience of, of directing cg. Okay. So I did that for a few years and it's, you know, that, and then it, you, you sort of, there you, there's stepping stones andMichael Jamin (23:31):That's just a big learning curve though.Eric Fogel (23:34):There's, there is a learning curve for sure. And it was important to me to, to have,Michael Jamin (23:39):Because you didn't learn, you didn't study that in college. What did you know about it?Eric Fogel (23:41):They didn't have, they didn't have computer animation there. Right. So you just have to, the best way to, to learn is to just be immersed in it. Right. Just on the Jobb training. So I, I did, I got that experience and that, that experience led me to, to Dreamworks.Michael Jamin (24:00):Right. And how, and you've been at Dreamworks for six years. And what do you do, what are you doing at Dreamworks? Basically do, are you, do you have a studio deal with Dreamworks? Is that what it'sMichael Jamin (24:08):Overall deal or something?Eric Fogel (24:09):They, I'm under contract. So right now it's kind of show to show.Michael Jamin (24:15):Alright. So you have a contract and they, they put you on whatever show they have going.Eric Fogel (24:19):Yeah, but they also were nice enough to keep me around. So they sort of put me on an overall deal. Cuz there was like a gap between shows. So that, that was very nice of them. Yeah. Keep me,Michael Jamin (24:31):They don't wanna lose you.Eric Fogel (24:32):I guess. They like me enough to keep me.Michael Jamin (24:34):It's so interesting cause I just had one of my previous guys, I may, I dunno if you know 'em, you probably don't. But John Abel and Glen Glen, they do all the kung They're the writers, the kung fu pander writers. They do a lot of dreamwork stuff.Eric Fogel (24:45):Yeah. Guys.Michael Jamin (24:46):Oh, you do, do you work with them?Eric Fogel (24:48):I haven't, but I'm familiar with them.Michael Jamin (24:50):So what exactly are you doing at Dreamworks then? We, as from jumping from show to show?Eric Fogel (24:55):Yeah. So they hired me initially, this is now almost six years to the day I started doing a show called Archibald's, next Big Thing. Mm-Hmm. , which was created by Mr. Tony Hale.Michael Jamin (25:10):Oh, he created, I know he's in it. I didn't know he created it.Eric Fogel (25:12):Created and voiced and was an, was an exec producer.Michael Jamin (25:18):And, and it's What network is that? Nickelodeon.Eric Fogel (25:21):That was so we started on Netflix. Okay. So we produced here at Dreamworks, we premiered on Netflix season one. And then season two we were on PeacockMichael Jamin (25:34):And Oh, is that, is there, is there a season three in the works or what?Eric Fogel (25:37):No, no. So the thing to know about animation these days is they don't order a a lot of episodes. It's, you know, the, it's, they've, especially on these streaming platforms.Michael Jamin (25:48):Oh, well that's the way it is for a live actually. Yeah. So what are you doing, se like 13 or something?Eric Fogel (25:53):We did two. So for Archibald we did two seasons and it was it was like 50. It ended up being like 50 half hours or fif 50. It's actually a hundred, a hundred episode. There are 11 minute episodes. So we did 111 minute episodes.Michael Jamin (26:08):That's actually, and are you, what are you, are you running the show? Are you running it? AreEric Fogel (26:11):You So I so that on that show, I was, I was exec producing, I was a writer and I was, I was basically doing a little of everything. Same, same thing. Directing, writing, overseeing every aspect of it.Michael Jamin (26:25):But it's not like every writer, there's a writing staff on that show. Right.Eric Fogel (26:29):We, we had, we had a, a staff and we had a couple head writers who, and they, those guys were great. I love those guys. They had never run, run a show before.Michael Jamin (26:39):Uhhuh .Eric Fogel (26:40):So I felt like I could be helpful there, you know, just in the writer's room and, and just, it just sort of organically evolved to where, you know, I didn't expect to be so involved in, in the writing process on that show. It just, it just turned out like, it just was a natural,Michael Jamin (26:57):That's the whole thing. You have a very unusual career path in career because cuz you do so many things.Eric Fogel (27:04):Yeah. I mean, I don't, there's no rules for this. I'm just making thisMichael Jamin (27:07):Up. Yeah. There's no rule. So, I mean, it's quite impressive because like, if I, I don't know what, what would, what, how would you advise? You must have kids come into you, Hey, how do I, how do I get to do what you do? Like what do you tell them?Eric Fogel (27:23):I mean you gotta have, you know, there's, there are a couple of key ingredients, right? You, you gotta have the passion,Michael Jamin (27:31):Right.Eric Fogel (27:32):For it, for the craft. You have to have the ability mm-hmm. have to have the skills. Michael Jamin (27:39):But you didn't have the ability when you started. Right.Eric Fogel (27:42):I had some ability. SomeMichael Jamin (27:44):Ability.Eric Fogel (27:44):And I kinda, yeah. I mean a lot of it is you have to immerse yourself and you have to just make things and you have to learn as you make things. You can't, you know, you can watch YouTube videos all day long, but you gotta like just get in it. And now it's one, you know, we have, the technology has changed so much. It's made it so much easier. Mm-Hmm. to make things. NowMichael Jamin (28:08):With those like those animation program, I mean, do you do anything like that on the side for yourself? Like what? Or, or, I mean, you know, at home for anyone? IEric Fogel (28:17):Don't have time for that. No. I these days. Yeah. I mean, I, I'm, you know, this, this job keeps, keeps me. ButMichael Jamin (28:24):Let's say you had a side project that you just wanted to get off the ground. Yeah. You just pitched the idea.Eric Fogel (28:29):I could, yeah. I mean, I have put things together and I've made, yeah. I've been able to make little animations you know, for projects, original projects that I've pitched. And I'll, I'll put together a whole presentation. I'll do all the visuals. I'll edit it and, and put together Yeah. Like little proof of concepts, right? That yeah. That stuff is, yeah. I love doingMichael Jamin (28:49):That. And that's on your own, but that's on your own time.Eric Fogel (28:51):That is on my own time. YourMichael Jamin (28:53):Own with, with some program you have.Eric Fogel (28:55):Yep.Michael Jamin (28:56):What's, what kind of program is this? What, what is it?Eric Fogel (28:58):I mean, I, you can, you can animate with Photoshop now. Oh. So that's, you know, that's, that's a thing. I, I use Sony movie Maker, which is this archaic system. I, I just, I'm really comfortable with it and I, I can use that to, to build projects and I can even animate on that thing.Michael Jamin (29:16):Are you doing any stop motion anymore?Eric Fogel (29:18):I haven't done stop motion in a long time.Michael Jamin (29:20):Because why the market part?Eric Fogel (29:24):You know, it's, it's just the, the right project hasn't really surfaced. And you know, I've, I've, I've pitched Project stop motion is a hard one to sell. People are afraid of it.Michael Jamin (29:36):Is it the look that's the, that's the criticism I get. They go that, here's the thing. Every, so I've been, I post a lot on social media and people will say, oh, I used to watch Glen Martin. And the, the phrase that comes back is that show is a fever dream. I was like, what's a fever dream? But everyone describes it as a fever dream. And what thatEric Fogel (29:55):Mean? Like, creepy. IMichael Jamin (29:56):Think it means like, like you were, they were in like, it felt like they were in an opium den, den era.Eric Fogel (30:03):. What it felt like for me.Michael Jamin (30:05):What's that?Eric Fogel (30:06):It's what it felt like for me Felt likeMichael Jamin (30:07):To, I mean, but it's like I, I, I don't know. There's something about like, I always like that format. Cause I always like this old bank and resting,Eric Fogel (30:17):Right. Bank ranking and backMichael Jamin (30:18):And best. Yeah. I always thought,Eric Fogel (30:20):Yeah. I mean, some people have got, I love, I've always loved the, the look of stop motion and you know, it's, there's something super charming and not just like, endearing about the, like the handcrafted aspect aspect of it. Right. Right. It's so cool. ButMichael Jamin (30:35):Don't feel that way. I guessEric Fogel (30:36):It's al it's always been the kind of like the redheaded stepchild of animation though, you know? Yeah. Always on. Always on the, on the fringes. And now, you know, it's hard enough to sell a show, any show. Right. Uhhuh . But it's in ama in the, in the animation industry, it feels like they're, they're only looking for, for CG animation these days. And there's just,Michael Jamin (30:56):Is that right? I mean, what, explain the different types of animation, because obviously there's, there's like, yeah. CG, like Shrek or somethingEric Fogel (31:03):Mm-Hmm.Michael Jamin (31:03): and then go on there actually different levels in terms of, you know, expense. What, how does that work?Eric Fogel (31:11):I mean, there, you know, there, so there there's like traditional hand drawn animation. But even that is all done mostly in computer these days. So there, there's no more like, hand painted cells. Right. But the actual movement, a lot of that stuff can still be done, done by hand.Michael Jamin (31:29):Uhhuh,Eric Fogel (31:29):. And then, you know, you got stop motion, you got cg and there, there are worlds in between where, you know, stylistically they, they're, they're doing a lot of thing, you know, design wise, they're kind of blending the, all the techniques.Michael Jamin (31:44):But it must be in terms of like, when they tell you what the budget of the show is, that greatly determines how good it's gonna look in the, how the, you know, the animation.Eric Fogel (31:52):Right. It can, you know, so right now I'm working on Megamind, the, the sequel to the, to the 2010 film Megamind. Right. And that's gonna air later this year. And I can't say a lot about it cuz they haven't announced a lot about it. Right. But the quality the quality of the animation, the technology has improved so much. Mm-Hmm. that even, even on a, a smaller tier budget, you can still, the quality of the animations really it's really improved.Michael Jamin (32:31):Right. So, so when you sell a show or when they bring you on a show, are you asking these questions or it's like, ah, someone else, you know, in terms of like, how much money do we get to spend on?Eric Fogel (32:42):Well they, yeah. They tell me and then I have to figure out how to make the show.Michael Jamin (32:47):Right. They tell you. Right. And so where will you cut corners or something.Eric Fogel (32:52):Yeah. So, so that's where it gets challenging. And, and you have to become very, you know, creative and, and and problem solving to, to be able to deliver. Right. The show the show you want and the show that they want with within these, you know, what, what can sometimes be a very small sandbox.Michael Jamin (33:10):Yeah.Eric Fogel (33:10):You know,Michael Jamin (33:11):And then so what, so what are you, you know, what are your ambitions or future ambitions or, you know, what, what excites you coming up or whatEric Fogel (33:20):You know, I would, I'd love to expand the Sandbox and be able to make a, make a leap into directing a feature would be really exciting. Oh really? Yeah.Michael Jamin (33:31):At at Dreamworks or, or any place really.Eric Fogel (33:34):Yeah. I mean I love it here. So I I would for sure love to direct a feature here. Right. But that, that would, you know, that would be a, a dream to, to be able to do that someday and, and to be able to, you know, spend three years, you know, focusing on, on like 90 minutes of content as opposed to, you know, hundreds of minutes of, of content to be able to like microfocus on that.Michael Jamin (34:00):It's so interesting cuz for me it's kind of other way around. Like, I, I, you know, I have to, I don't know. Cuz you get to every, every week you get, all right, here's something new. I have to live with something. But you're saying you, because you really wanna make the qual, you really want to spend time to make sure every frame is right.Eric Fogel (34:17):I would love, yeah, that would be, that would be a dream. Because in TV animation, you know, it's, it's like there's always this, this schedule. You're a slave to the schedule.Michael Jamin (34:29):Right.Eric Fogel (34:29):And you, you know. And soMichael Jamin (34:31):Are you, are you in the Glendale campus of Dreamwork? Is that where you are? Yeah. Are you there right now? Yeah, this is, this is really your,Eric Fogel (34:38):This is my office.Michael Jamin (34:39):This is your real office over at Dreamworks. People fa Okay. So you're okay. I don't even know if they with Covid if you're working from home or not.Eric Fogel (34:47):I still, yeah, I'm here a couple days a week.Michael Jamin (34:50):Uhhuh Eric Fogel (34:50):These days.Michael Jamin (34:52):And, and cuz this is your show. So you, well, are you working with writers? You know, how are you, how, how involved are you right now with Theri? Is there a writer's room or whatEric Fogel (35:00):Where, so the writing is, is wrapped on this show, but we were really fortunate because we got the two guys Brent Simons and Alan Schoolcraft, who wrote the original Megamind mm-hmm. were brought, were brought in as, as eps to, to basically help Showrun and, and run the writer's room. So having those guys was, was a gift, you know, cuz they, they kind of, they invented Megamind. So,Michael Jamin (35:30):And this is all on the Dreamworks campus? The writer's?Eric Fogel (35:32):Yeah. We did the writing here. A lot of the, a lot of the, the create a lot of art on this show is done not in Toronto. It's a lot of it's done in Vancouver.Michael Jamin (35:42):Oh, are you, are you ma are you making the trip up there? DoEric Fogel (35:46):You have to? I've been up there. I've been up there a couple of times. But we are, luckily, yeah, now that we've got, you know, zoom, it's, you know, I can do a lot of this right here. A lot of the work I can do right here.Michael Jamin (35:58):See, that's so wait, so, so they are, these subcontract, subcontracting out a lot of the animation at Dreamworks. I I kind of, it was under the impression they did it all themselves.Eric Fogel (36:07):They have always had partner studios, even like on the early features they, they were partnering with, with studios. So there's always been this sort of hybrid model on this particular show. Almost all of the, the, the art, the art side of it is, is outsourced on, on this show. Michael Jamin (36:29):Interesting. And then, and so they're actually, okay, so the animation houses are there. I mean, basically if you're an, so if you're an animator, it's interesting, there's different levels of animation, animators. This is all, and I've worked, I've worked in animation for many years. I still don't understand how it works. But but like, I remember like when we worked I worked at it wasn't Bento Box, it was whoever was doing King the Hill, Fort Bento. But Oh,Eric Fogel (36:56):I know who you're talking about.Michael Jamin (36:57):Yeah. I was, I'm forgetting, I'm blanking now. But they, the animators would've to come take tests. You would apply for a job of animator. Yeah. They'd give you a test, draw this frame or whatever, you know, is that how it still works there? Maybe stickEric Fogel (37:11):Computer. Yeah, I mean there's always, you know, it's like anything else, right? You have to audition, right. Or things. And yeah, there are, there are definitely, there's a big kinda leap in terms of skill levelsMichael Jamin (37:26):OfEric Fogel (37:26):Artists. Right. Because so much of art is like subjective.Michael Jamin (37:31):Yeah. It's so, it's so interesting. That's this career. But, and what about, I don't know, live action? Any interest getting back into doing more or? No,Eric Fogel (37:40):I would love to do some, some live action at some point. I, I've got like a horror movie that I would love to try to do one day. And you know, I, I'm, I'm such a huge like, horror sci-fi nut.Michael Jamin (37:55):Right. Are you, and are you pitching other shows as well? Or, or, you know, is how does it work in Dreamworks? So like, we have an idea, we have to show you're hired Fogal. I mean, is that what it is? Basically?Eric Fogel (38:06):They have, yeah. I mean they have a, an in-house development process. And when you're, when you're here, they, you know, there's like a, you have, there's a first look deal. So you, you, if you have an idea, you're sort of obligated to first.Michael Jamin (38:21):Right.Eric Fogel (38:23):And you know, the, so the industry's a little different right now cuz there's, they're not, you know, there aren't, there aren't a lot of shows being sold or bought right now , because it'sMichael Jamin (38:35):No kidding. Is that and is that the way, I didn't know if that's the way it is for animation as well.Eric Fogel (38:40):It is. So, you know, I'm very, very happy to be working on Megamind right now. .Michael Jamin (38:46):Yeah, right.Eric Fogel (38:47):This will keep me employed, you know, for the next year or so. But it's like, you know, it's like anything else. We, we work job to job and there's never any guarantee Nope. That you're gonna get hired again. You just, you know, it's all kind of on good faith.Michael Jamin (39:02):Are you working with the actors too? Directing actors as well?Eric Fogel (39:05):I'm directing all the voice actors on this show.Michael Jamin (39:08):You're the only director. Yeah. And, and then you're also supervising the animation, the, theEric Fogel (39:14):All of it. Yeah, allMichael Jamin (39:15):Of that. Yep. Good for you, man. Carved out quite a little career for yourself.Eric Fogel (39:20):It's fun.Michael Jamin (39:21):Yeah,Eric Fogel (39:21):It's fun. Keeps me busy. But I, I do love it. I do.Michael Jamin (39:25):Do you have any other advice for anybody to, you know, what's, you know, trying to break inEric Fogel (39:31):Other, I mean,Michael Jamin (39:32):Make more,Eric Fogel (39:33):You know, it's, you have to, I, it's a long time ago someone told me like, the recipe for, for a successful whatever show movie, whatever, you know, you find that, that thing that, that you love. You put, you put your, all your heart into that thing. And then, you know, you take what everyone else loves and, and it's kind of like where these two things come together that, that's kind of like your sweet spot, right? That's, that's your hit, that's your success. And so you gotta, you know, you gotta like focus in on what that thing is and, and put everything you have into it.Michael Jamin (40:08):I'm surprised they're not talking about bringing celebrity death mat back. That's gotta be next.Eric Fogel (40:13):There have been a few conversations over the years and there, there have been a couple of attempts to bring it back and we, we did. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's not dead, but ,Michael Jamin (40:27):Do they reach out to you or are you actively trying to sell that?Eric Fogel (40:30):I have. So I guess it's Viacom or Yeah, m t v. They, they own the rights to the show, but we, we have an agreement to, you know, if, if they want to bring it back, I'm, I'm attached to it. Right. And we've had, we've had some attempts and for whatever, well we, we did, we did get close. And then yes the studio that had made an offer, they went away. Michael Jamin (41:00):They went awayEric Fogel (41:01):As, as these things do. I'll, I'll tell you offline more about it, .Michael Jamin (41:05):Alright. Like, when we put the animation, the, the ama the animation studio that made Glen Martin, we put 'em outta business .Eric Fogel (41:12):They, they didn't stay in business long after that. . And it's Yeah. Funny because they, I, I don't know if they, at the time I, I'm not sure if they realized how, what, what a unique opportunity that show was for them.Michael Jamin (41:26):What do you mean by that?Eric Fogel (41:28):The, you know, I, again, like these shows, these stop,Michael Jamin (41:32):Like they, how many stop motion series have there been? Right, right. You know, they're few and far between. Right. That was the Yeah, that's another thing. There's only, they're one of the few people that actually could do it. And I don't, I don't even know what they were doing beforehand. It's Right. So when they went out of business, like there was like, what else are you gonna do? You know, they wanted be like, people aren't lining up. Yeah. Stop for stop motion shows. Right? There's only a handful. Yeah. Yeah. That's the, yeah. Anyway. Is there any way, is there, do you wanna promote anything? Do you want people to follow you anywhere? Is there anything we can do to help you help grow your brand? Eric Fogel. Violent . You can find me. I'm on you can find me on Twitter. Death Match Guy, I think is my, my oh really?(42:19):Twitter handle. I'm verified there. What? Oh. But not on Instagram, just Twitter. I do a little Instagram. I'm not a huge social media person. Yeah. Well, we'll get you there for some weird reason. Yeah. Cause you're, cuz we're the same age. Anyway. All right, dude, I wanna thank you so much. Yeah. I, you've exposed me. I've learned something. Learned something about you and your craft. Yeah, because I, I even remember when we got hired, they said, yeah, we got this guy on, on Glen Martin. We have this guy Eric Fogel. I was like, what does he do? No one can explain it because we do everything. He's the guy. He's the glue, basically. That's what he he's the glue. Yeah. That's, that's it. Yeah. I'm the glue. Yeah. All right, man. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for, for joining me e. Excellent. that's it everyone. More good stuff next week. Go check out what Eric Fogel's up to. And he's a great guy. Thank you again so much for doing this, man. Don't go anywhere. All right, everyone, until next week.Phil Hudson (43:18):This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving a review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until max time, keep riding.

Impressionist and Comedian Frank Caliendo is this week's guest on the podcast. Join Michael and Frank as they discuss Frank's career and his advice for emerging comedians.Show NotesFrank Caliendo's Website - https://www.frankcaliendo.com/Frank Caliendo on Twitter - https://twitter.com/FrankCaliendoFrank Caliendo on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/frankcaliendo/Frank Caliendo on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/frankcaliendoMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TanscriptsFrank Caliendo (00:00:00):So I thought put Seinfeld on drugs and the d the, the bit was why do my fingers look like little people? Who are these people in the door and they're talking to each other? They're probably talking about me when I say it. Talking. I, oh, Jerry, oh, I somebody. Hey Jerry, you look like you've been seeing little people on your fingers. It's, you just let that camera and then the end, it was Newman and Newman's like, hello Jerry. And she, we've lost a sort of Jerry Garcia Grateful Dead commitment of stamps. You would see . So he'd lick the stamps. You know, that was the,Michael Jamin (00:00:33):You're listening to screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.(00:00:41):Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. And I got another great guest today. I'm really racking up the guests. Everyone. before we begin, make sure everyone to get on my my watch list is my free newsletter, by the way. Goes out every friday at michaeljamin.com/watchlist for tips for screenwriters, actors, and directors and all that. And now let's bring him on. Let's bring on my next, my next guest who I met actually many years ago when I was running a show. He's, the show was called Glen Martin. And we, we, this is how it works. And, and Frank, don't worry, I'll give you a minute to talk. I know you're talking about the bit here.Frank Caliendo (00:01:15):No,Michael Jamin (00:01:16):I love it. This is how, this is how it works in animation. It's actually a fun job for, for actors. So basically the casting director, we don't even audition. Can't we say this is what we need and the cast director just bring somebody in and, and and if they're terrible, you know, we just get somebody else to replace them. And so in this role we needed this is we needed someone who could do an impression. And I don't remember what the character was. There's probably some politician. It might have been Obama, it might have been George Bush, someone like that. And so she had our casting director was Linda Lamont, Montana. And she goes, I have just the guy. And she brings him in. And it was, it was Frank, Frank Callo, thank you so much for being on the, my podcast, Frank.Frank Caliendo (00:01:55):And now I'm back. How about that? Huh?Michael Jamin (00:01:57):Now you're back. And he killed it. Now Frank, is this your, Frank has got Frank, you know, the, and, and, and the Game of Thrones. There was like the the man of, what was it? The god of many faces. Is that what it was? You're, you're the man. You're the god of many voices.Frank Caliendo (00:02:11):I'll take it. Yeah, I'llMichael Jamin (00:02:12):Take, take it.Frank Caliendo (00:02:12):It it's like six and then I just kind of do variations on it.Michael Jamin (00:02:16):I don't think so. Dude, you are amazing. You are amazing at how you do that. I want to get into like how you actually do that.Frank Caliendo (00:02:23):Well, there, there, okay. So let's, let's get into, first of all, I didn't believe you that I did the show that you said I did, cuz I kind of remember Glen Martin. D d s I remember getting the sides for it. I remember getting an email about it, but I don't remember doing it cuz we talked at some point that you were doing a live a live stream. And you're like I think that's where it was. And I was like, you said, oh, Frank, you did a thing with me. Or maybe we just instant message back and forth. I'm like, you're crazy. I don't remember doing that. I just looked it up on I mdb and I did do it. You did do it. It was George Bush and I guess John Madden. Go figure. You probably Madden happy for Georges Bush. So you wrote in the John Madden thing, I'm guessing. Michael Jamin (00:03:09):It's so funny. It's so funny that you chose to forget that you were on Glen Martin. How, howFrank Caliendo (00:03:13):She, I don't remember a lot of stuff and I don't even do any drugs, but it's like, I don't, I don't remember. I remember it was like a declamation kind of thing, right?Michael Jamin (00:03:19):Yeah. Yes. Right. And it was, that was Kevin Neen. He, he the, he the guy. So, yeah. And you, you crushed it and you did. No, it wasn't John. John.Frank Caliendo (00:03:29):I crushed it so much. I've never worked with you again. That's butMichael Jamin (00:03:32):I haven't done not have animation since. No,Frank Caliendo (00:03:34):That's true, jerk.Michael Jamin (00:03:35):I did Barry for 10 minutes though. But youFrank Caliendo (00:03:38):Know, it's funny. Here's a funny thing though. This is a funny thing, is that I haven't done a lot of animation. So you think of me as animation because of the voices. And that's the thing that's always weird. And that's why one of the reasons I didn't do a ton of voice acting. One, I wasn't as good at it as some other people. But two, it was like, because once you do that, it's amazing how people think of you in like, I'm in a couple of different tunnels for pi. It, it's, you know, the pi, the holes of the pigeon. I am a, people think of me as a sports guy and an impressionist. So it's like, oh, we, that's all he can do. So they never, so I, it's so funny because recently people have been like, ah, you wouldn't do this little partner move.(00:04:19):I'm like, yeah, I would, I do, do I have to do an impression? No. Oh good. Are you gonna rewrite the part? So I do impressions? No. Perfect. Interesting. That's what I wanna do. Now I do this, the impression stuff to keep the lights on. I mean, that's what I do on TikTok and Instagram and stuff like that. It's, there's some fun with it too. But that's the amazing thing is people start to get, I think I saw you do something recently where you said, you know, beat the dead horse. Right? You're like, it can Oh yeah. Do the thing. Do the thing you're known for . Yes. Keep doing it. Keep doing. I did it for 20 years andMichael Jamin (00:04:52):Well, I'm telling, and I'm talking about beginning people, but Yeah. But for you I can understand.Frank Caliendo (00:04:55):Absolutely. It's, it's, it's, and then you, you then you get to that point where you're like, I gotta do some other, some other stuff. And it's so funny because then people don't want you for anything else. Right. And then you go back and do some of the stuff again. But there's like two careers. And I've heard David Spade talking to those other people. Probably talked about it too. But I used to say this until I heard David Spade say it too. And then I'm like, oh, people think I was just taking it from David Spade. But it was, you spend the first career, you have two careers, the first career pigeonholing yourself, getting known, doing something, Uhhuh . And then the second career is being able to do something else, right? Like getting outside of that. So I had the first one. So I'm fighting in that little bit of that second one.Michael Jamin (00:05:33):Well, you know, so I, I wrote for Spade twice on just Shoot Me. And then later on Rules of engagement. So I'm just curious, what does he think is, what is his second career? What was he talking about?Frank Caliendo (00:05:41):Well, I I I just saw it in a, you know, I, I worked with him recently and didn't bring it up because I was scared of him. No. Why would you be scared of David SP's scared of David? Like, I tower over David sp five, six. No I'm trying to think. It was just something I saw him talk about on a talk show. And I, you know, it was one of those things I'm like, ah man, somebody much more famous than me is talking about this. So I don't know whatMichael Jamin (00:06:07):Thing you'd like to do. Well, I mean, you're amazing at pressure. I can see why you might wanna do something up, but what is it acting? I mean, you know,Frank Caliendo (00:06:13):It's just acting in small parts, you know, just small things because one, people think you want to only do big things and carry a show. Right. I don't really even have any interest in that. I don't even, I, I don't even wanna carry a show Uhhuh. Cause that's, I I I don't feel like my acting is at that level where I, anytime I've ever wanted to do something in Hollywood, I've always wanted to surround myself with good people. And they get confused when you try to do that. Yeah. They're like, why would you want somebody else to Well, cause I want it to be as funny as possible. I grew up, I grew up playing sports. When you have a good team, you do your part on the team. When I had Frank tv it was my show that came after Mad tv. It was shortened by the writer strike and it had some struggles and stuff like that. But it was one of those things where and it wasn't that good. And when it was finally put together, I was amazed. Cuz we had great writers and they would do it. They would pieces John Bowman that were Bowman and Matt Wickline.Michael Jamin (00:07:09):Yeah.Frank Caliendo (00:07:09):Great writers. Brenda Hay king and Lance Crowder. All these guys, like people Rachel Ramas, there were really great people Yeah. Involved in the show. But then by the time it was cut and put on tv, all the air was taken out. It was boo boo, boo boo boom. And you know, when that happens, there's no setups. It's all punchlines and you look like you're trying too hard. Yeah. That's, you know, you and I just didn't have, I'm, I'm not enough of a fighter. You need somebody who's gonna fight for you and do somebody who's gonna have the vision and fight for the vision and has been in that spot before to fight. And I just, I mean, I was doing like 15, 20 pages a day cuz I was playing all the parts until I got them to get other people on the show. So it was one of those things where I was just like, I was exhausted. I didn't even get to see edits. I didn't, I didn't like watch myself. Cause I was also too fat at the time. Yeah. I was like, I'm so fat in these things. I, it looks like South Park episodes. Michael Jamin (00:08:08):But how did that come part about, did you have a development deal at a studio orFrank Caliendo (00:08:11):Something being fat?Michael Jamin (00:08:13):No. You a lotFrank Caliendo (00:08:15):Exercise. It was, I had a d I went in, I, I went in and after I was at Med TV for a while there for five years I had the Fox stuff, the n NFL on Fox things, which was actually bigger for me than anything else. Right. being on the Sunday stuff and Super Bowls. So I went inMichael Jamin (00:08:35):And that's cause you do a killer. Madden give, give us, give us the taste of the Madden so people knowFrank Caliendo (00:08:39):What you're trying. I'm mad here for the quick pop popcorn pop. And I turned him into a character too. Like, like I was ta talking. This is, I know I go off on tangents. Just stop me. Go back. But one of the things with the Madden, you know, the, the realistic John Madden voice was this kind of voice where you, you say the things and you do the things. But I found this thing in him that was the excited little kid. Right? The . Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then when he would get that, that going, it was like, I was on Letterman and he had me come on as, get me come on as John Madden didn't say it was a some, I was the lead guest over Ben Stiller, I think it was. Wow. Fake John Madden Wow. Was the lead guest. And I came in and I wasn't really the lead guest, but it was, you know, I tell people, but it was a, it was so I pulled a chicken wing out of my pocket.(00:09:29):I had them get me a chicken wig with sauce on it and everything. I gave you hungry. He was like that right now. , how funny, can you believe this? But it was one of those things where it just, stuff would happen and the, you create the character with it. And it becomes, the funny thing is to me, that that stuff doesn't work the same on social media like TikTok or Instagram, but it might work on some YouTube stuff. Cause there's more longer form. It's, it's more of a longer form, you know, the, the platform is Right. I just didn't like that I said more and longer right. Together. I'm, I'm weird with grammar. I'm very, some things I just, like, if you noticed, I texted you, I didn't like that I put different tenses tenses in my texts and you like, you just stopped talking to at that point.(00:10:14): But when you, I dunno what they really like and on TikTok and these you know, shortform ones platforms is exact replication. They want the, what I would call more of an impersonation, right? Like they want the the, they want you to sound exactly like the person. There's no element of caricature it really, or going what I would call Dana Carvey on it, cartooning it Right. And making it bigger. They're like, ah, that's not like it. Well that's the point. That's the comedic element, right? Right. That makes a good exaggeration after. Yeah, exaggeration after the initial what's the, what the word I'm looking for, the when you, when you recognition, when you get the recognition, laugh on the sound, and then you have to do something with it and make it bigger, right? You have to have more fun with it.Michael Jamin (00:11:09):But you did a post, I thought it was fascinating. I think it was on TikTok, excuse me. I think it might have been like how you do Robert Downey Jr. Or something. And you, you walk through the stages of how you approach the voice in, in pieces and then how you getFrank Caliendo (00:11:26):There. So let's, let's start with this. And this is something that you'll identify with completely as a writer and a creator. You have to find the cadence and the voice of the person not speaking in terms of tone, but the cadence, right? Yeah. How many Christopher Walkins have you heard, right? You've heard low, you've heard, hi, you've heard in the middle, in, in, in the old days, it was William. You knew who it was just by the pauses, right? So you could tell from those voices how you would write for that character. You put the point of view into those, into the song, right? What those of the, you know, into you put the lyrics into the melody. So with Robert, Danny Jr, I found that this is with other characters too. That counting can help you do it. It's better for the audience. It's not a full way to teach somebody how to do it, but it's entertaining while you do it. So Robert Downey Jr. Is after you find the pitch, or you don't even have to have the pitch first, but I'll go to the pitch cuz it's what I do. But it's one, two, pause, burp 5, 6, 7. So you find that it's 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7. And then you can just figure it out, you know? So that's, that's how you find those with Liam Neon. It's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. You know? So it's the beginning. That'sMichael Jamin (00:12:52):Interesting.Frank Caliendo (00:12:53):Yeah. You can do that with Jeff. Goldblum is one, two 1, 1 1. Juan, what comes after one? Think out loud. That's him one. What's, what's coming into my head? What do I hear? The voices coming at me. One, two. Yes. Here comes one, two, a little jazz. 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.Michael Jamin (00:13:17):But you talk about this, you're talking about how you approach it. It's not like you think anyone, you, it's not like you're trying to teach anybody. It's not like anyone, you think anyone can do this, do you? Because I don't think IFrank Caliendo (00:13:26):Do. I think people can find, people can find, I do think people can find it. I think people can find people can't get the, they might not be able to get the pitch, the, the, the note, but they can find the cadence. Everybody, people do itMichael Jamin (00:13:40):Forever. But you, you know, your, your throat, your mouth has a certain in your nose, like you talk. I think you're stuck kind of with the, like, I can't change my, you're stuck with the voice. I don't know how you were able to literally changeFrank Caliendo (00:13:51):The, well, you don't need to do all that stuff. You don't, you don't have to do all the, that. This is another part. The face is another part of an impression. That'sMichael Jamin (00:13:58):The sound of the com. The sound comes from inside your skull.Frank Caliendo (00:14:01):Ok. So yeah. So there, there, there are different pieces to this as well. You can close off your throat. You, you think of it, you know the Bobby character, the Howie Mandel, little bitMichael Jamin (00:14:12):Bobby.Frank Caliendo (00:14:14):So that's closing off your throat. And a lot of people can do that. But the difference is finding different levels of being able to work. It's just, it's a, it's like a muscle, right? Right. So I'll do, I've done this, you might have seen this before, but this is John C. Riley is in here. So John C. Riley has just a little bit of bubble in his throat. Now if you work backwards, a tiny hole, ker frog, that's a little bit more up in here, re tiny Hall Kermit, you're reporting from the planet COOs. Then bring it down a little bit, Nelson your throat a little bit more. You add some air and it becomes Mark. I, I see this as an absolute win, guys. ThisMichael Jamin (00:14:51):That's exactly it. ThisFrank Caliendo (00:14:52):Is, this is crazy. And then, so for Ruff, he is got that thing where I think he had like a, a tumor or something, some, some medical thing when he was younger. And part of his f it was the same with like Stallone, Stallone had Bell's palsy, right? So he is got that, you know, that thing that, right? So if you find, I call it the pizza slice, you've probably seen the thing I did this. It's a triangle. It's a line across the eyebrows, a.in the, in the chin. And it's the triangle that goes down. There are two things. Now, this is stuff I'm actually gonna dos and Instagram on as well, but it's I just am too lazy. And it's, the mouth tells you how the person talks.Michael Jamin (00:15:33):UhhuhFrank Caliendo (00:15:34):. So if you watch my mouth, that's why everybody does a Donald Trump, right? When they do a Donald Trump, you have to do the lips. The lips are very, very, that's very. But now this part of my face from those down is doing Donald Trump. Now when the eyes start going, it sh now that's the point of view that starts. Same with the bush. Bush is, you know, I could do this thing with this half smile. It's like somebody told me a dirty joke before I came up here, but that's just, that's from nose down. But now I get a little discombobulate and you know, I'm staring into the, the abbu, you know, that's what it was also a great movie. So it's, and then the point of view comes from the way you think. Right? But you, when you write a character, when you write a character, you become that character when you write, I don't know if I'm stirring batter or what. Yeah. But if you're doing a cooking show and you're stirring the batter, but your character, you haveMichael Jamin (00:16:32):To, yeah, we would, for example, on King Hill, we would imitate Bobby Hill or Hank or whatever. But imitating is not sounding, you know, it's not sounding like,Frank Caliendo (00:16:40):Yeah. It's just, that's just taking it another level. You, you, you just take it. You get, because you had the cadence of the character. You might not have had the note, but you had the notes written. You didn't have them on the stop, but you knew if it was an eighth note, a quarter note, whatever, a, a rest. And I only know a little bit about music and that's all of it that I just told you.Michael Jamin (00:17:00):But did you, as a kid, did you, like, did you, were you good at this as a kid? Did you wanna aspire? Did you aspire to this?Frank Caliendo (00:17:06):I think I was pretty good at it. I, I have a natural knack and my kids have the knack too. So you have to have a, a knack at the beginning to figure this stuff out from the beginning Right. To, you know, it's predator of the infrared going. I see everything. My son had Bell's Palsy when he was very little. And I, I could see that when he would smile. This is a, the blessing and a curse thing. And when he would smile, he wouldn't smile all at the same time. And then I started to look closely and part of his face moved a lot slower and didn't always move. And I said to, to my wife, I go, something happened. I don't know what it is, but I think he had Bell's Palsy. Well, we had him tested to make sure there was no brain stuff going on or whatever.(00:17:47):But the doctors, what the diagnosis eventually was Bell. He had Bell's Palsy when he was a baby. Right. And it, you know, pa what happens is Bell's Palsy is, I think the fifth I, I don't remember what it was, the fifth or seventh cranial nerve. Something gets damaged either by a virus or trauma, blood trauma. And it keeps you from everything moving at the same time. But that's, but I could see it. Most people don't see it. I could see it because that's the way my brain breaks things down. Yeah. I mean, you as a writer, as a performer, whatever, however you consider, whatever you consider yourself, you do similar things. You see the world from that point of view. And that's how you write. You go, you observe, you take in, and then you replicate or create from that. Exaggeration or finding the, I I've set off Siri like nine times on my watch during this. I've never, that's never happened before.Michael Jamin (00:18:50):I Yeah, I, I say mean things to her. I and I and my wife says it's not good because Apple's picking up on this , like I say awful things to Siri. So, you know, like, Siri, you asshole. What time is it? She don't say that.Frank Caliendo (00:19:08):I'm sure it could be much worse.Michael Jamin (00:19:10):Yeah, it is much worse. I'm cleaning it upFrank Caliendo (00:19:11):For the podcast. Yeah. You were just trying not to get canceled.Michael Jamin (00:19:14):Yeah. Yeah. .Frank Caliendo (00:19:15):Yeah. So there, so there are lots of, yeah, I, I, I see. I look at these thi these things in, in lots of different ways. For me, you know, one of the things that, one of the things when I first got on social media in the last couple years, a few years ago mm-hmm. . Cause I wasn't doing any, cuz I was on Twitter 10 years ago. AndMichael Jamin (00:19:35):Why did I started finding, started my goal on social media. Why did you start?Frank Caliendo (00:19:38):Well, you have to. I mean, if you, if you, the first time it, it was because it was new and people were telling me I didn't like it. I just, I don't like it. I, I, I, I can't, I can't adapt it because people are angry for the most part. And there's a lot ofMichael Jamin (00:19:54):Yes. Tell me about it.Frank Caliendo (00:19:56):Is it, yeah. Right, right. And there's a lot of what confirmation bias. So there's confirmation bias mm-hmm. and the exact opposite. Right? So people either wanna hear exactly what they're thinking and they don't wanna have a conversation about something different. Mm-Hmm. . Or they just wanna fight you for no reason. They wanna troll you. They just wanna, they wanna make you mad. And especially somebody like you or somebody like me that's been in the entertainment business, we targets. Because if we say something back that's mean. Oh, the guy from Glen Martin dvsMichael Jamin (00:20:27):. Well, they don't, they don't. No one's ever heard of that. I know. But, but you're right. I don't, I don't respond anymore because there's just no winning it. There'sFrank Caliendo (00:20:35):No winning. It can't win. Cause because you are, it would be like, this is an exaggeration, but it'd be like a leader being a leader of a country. And this is, but this is what Trump does or did though, right? Uhhuh, . . And you would come back at people and you'd go think, ah, you gotta stay above that. At a certain point it's fu it, it quote unquote. It could be funny in and this isn't a political rant, this is just what I see as an observation. Mm-Hmm. it can be funny in of somebody running for president, but as soon as they're president you kind of feel like you're Yeah. I think, I think it's time to be a little different. You can, that's my opinion. ButMichael Jamin (00:21:08):No, you're absolutely right. I told, but, but, and that's what's so interesting about it, is because social media, at least when I started doing it, like at first, it's a little empowering. You have an audience and you can, you have an, you have a platform. But then once you start getting trolled and, and I, as a comedy writer, I feel like I can tear you apart. I can tear you apart. Whoever's trolling, I don't, I'm better at this than you. But the minute I do it, I, I can't do it because then I'm, I'm then I'm the asshole. And then it, what was once empowering now becomes emasculating at the same time. It's very odd to be able to have a platform, but not causeFrank Caliendo (00:21:40):And and you can, and people can say things to you that you could never say back because they will say things that would get you as a business person canceled. Yep. It doesn't have to be racial. Or it just, they can say things that are just mean that if you say it and somebody pulls it up, they're like, look what Michael Jamin did. Yeah. This is unbelievable. Yeah. I We can't hire this guy. Yeah. He's, he's a terrible person. And they'll defend the person who's ripping you to shreds and saying way worse things. Yes. So you're stuck in, you're, you're stuck in a spot. So it, so I, I started, this is why I got away from social media 10 years ago, whatever. So I was on Twitter, I was building it really quickly with sports stuff. Mostly not video, just just kind of like sassy phrases and, you know, mean things. I, and I realized I was starting to be this person on Twitter in real life in real wayMichael Jamin (00:22:37):InFrank Caliendo (00:22:37):What I'd see somebody just, I'd see somebody and wanna say something terrible to them. Mm-Hmm. . And the only reason I would say that in Twitter, cuz my comedy's silly, not really mean uhhuh, , it's it more cherubic cuz of the cheeks. But , it was one of those things where you said mean things on Twitter, you got likes and retweets cuz people love Right. You know, knocking down people in power. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say something about a quarterback that just threw an interception. Something I could never do. I would never have, you know, that that's the level of skill to, to make it to their level. And I'm ripping them to shreds. I'm going, I, I, and I've changed this way too. I mean, I, I used to think, you know, I used to watch the Oscars and kind of rip the Oscars to shreds because it is so self-aggrandizing. It, so mm-hmm. , everybody's self-congratulatory and stuff. Like, and I would say things, I'm like, I shouldn't be saying this, that, not just because it's, you know, it's kind of gross. But it's, it's also just, I don't know, these people work very hard to get where they, you know, they're just going, some of 'em don't, you know, they're happy to be getting an award, but they have to be show up. It's part of the business. Right.(00:23:46):I get it. I, I what a jerk I am for. You know, that's why even people, people wanna do a podcast and like, let's do a podcast where we just rip movies. I'm like, I don't wanna, that's somebody's acting, somebody's put a lot of time, like my TV show. There were a lot of great people putting that stuff together. But by the time it all got put together, a network has to say other people standards and practices, all these different levels, it's not really what you want it to be. And it's not any one person's fault. It's just not what you want it to be. And that person is, but, you know, that's why it's so amazing when somebody does do something really great, you're going, wow, you watch a, a Tarantino film or something like that. He's a guy who just fights for all his own stuff.(00:24:32):He's gonna do it his way. Right. But you watch a, you watch a film with somebody who does Jordan Peele now right. Who actually got to work with a man TV years ago. People get to a point where they have their point of view and they can make closer to the movie that they want to make. And then you go, okay, when this turns out, this is, this is fantastic. This is how you do it. Because when you don't have that much, say you don't have that much power and you don't have that much fight in you, it's, it's really hard to get close to what you want. And there were so many things in my show mm-hmm. that were close to what I wanted. But that little bit of change just goes. And there were three little changes. You go, oh, the timing's not what I would've done there. They used a cut I never would've used. Right. And now they put it in a different part of the show. Wow. Oh man. So then I know that happens everybody,Michael Jamin (00:25:27):But I have to ask, so then why do you do, why are you on social media? Because you, you have quite a big presence on it. So what's,Frank Caliendo (00:25:33):You go in, you go into an somebody's office, an executive's office. The first thing they do is look how many this, what are you doing here? What do you do? They reallyMichael Jamin (00:25:43):Say, say that toFrank Caliendo (00:25:44):You. Oh yeah, I've had plenty. The people look at me. It'sMichael Jamin (00:25:47):Because what they don't, I feel like they don't understand is the change in the algorithm, which is maybe only a few months old, but they don't un do they understand when you talk to them that having a million followers on Instagram or TikTok, you can't reach them all on any given day. You reach maybe a 10th of them, you know.Frank Caliendo (00:26:03):Well, you don't even reach that. I mean, people don't, so again, people the way it's been explained to me is that TikTok doesn't even really go out to yourMichael Jamin (00:26:15):Followers anymore. No, it doesn't. No, it doesn't.Frank Caliendo (00:26:17):It go, it goes out to a random sample audience, which has mm-hmm. some of your followers in it. And then once it hits that first audience, if enough people watch it long enough or watch it to the end, it gets, then it goes to the next sampleMichael Jamin (00:26:30):Audience. Yes. Right.Frank Caliendo (00:26:31):So if you go to a bad, I I,Michael Jamin (00:26:34):But that's also Instagram. Now that's kind of this, they're they're taking the same model. TheFrank Caliendo (00:26:38):The real stuff. Yeah. Well, because, and the reason that works for them is because they, they can build stars faster that way they can build. So it used to be on Instagram, it would take you years if you weren't famous mm-hmm. to get to a point where you had 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 followers. Well now people can just vertically swipe through reels and all of a sudden the, those people who do that are tend to follow a lot more people. Right. So your videos can go viral with no followers. Right. And then suddenly you'll have followers. It didn't used to work like that it used to.Michael Jamin (00:27:15):Exactly. So that's why I'm asking lots of followers. Do they know, do you think the executives know that? Cause they look at your numbers and like go, oh, Frank's got a big following. But do they know that you canFrank Caliendo (00:27:23):I don't. I think they're a little, I think yes and no. But again, it works to, in their favor that if you have videos that have a lot of numbers mm-hmm. do, because then you're hitting an audience. They know you're hitting a pretty big audience that spreads it to other people. Mm-Hmm. . Now I'm 49, I'm about to be 49. Okay? Mm-hmm. , I, my age group that I played to most, or played to the most was probably 35 to 50 in there. You know, somewhere in there somewhere that I felt like I was similar age and had similar likes and life experiences.Michael Jamin (00:28:00):Right.Frank Caliendo (00:28:00):And those people, that group of people doesn't tend to hit the light button or the retweet button as much. I know I don't. Right. Right. Kids send it, they direct message stuff to their friends. They send things to their f they then they tag other people. They tag lots of people. Yeah. And that's why network executives, producers advertisers like young audiences, not just to sell the products to, but they're the ones that spread the word. Right. And they know that. They know it. It kind of works. You know, I always, I never really thought about that or I never really believed them with that. You know, I've changed brands on a lot of stuff. I've changed toothpaste, I've changed all kinds of things. Right. I don't think I'm normal. I, I, I, I guess I'm not, but young people will try different things and they will do lots of different things at a much higher rate. AndMichael Jamin (00:28:54):So interesting. Do you feel then, as a performer that, okay, so you kind of have to do this. You're a little bit, you know, could you do it what, every day? Right? How many times do you post a day?Frank Caliendo (00:29:05):I don't, I don't even post that much. I, I'll post like a, a week. Once a week or once. Oh, half the time. It's half the time. It's old stuff that I've already Interesting. Like the thing, I have something with 8 million views right now from like a couple weeks ago. Wow. That I've posted two times before. Yeah. And it's gotten a million views and 2 million views and maybe 30,000 views. Oh. Which hits exactly what you're talking about. Yeah. If it doesn't hit the, I have, I have two pieces of advice. A couple pieces of advice for your content, please. I, I would not end my pieces telling people to go see, go. Don't, I wouldn't waste the time in the, in the, in the post telling people for more, if you like stuff like this. Go see, go did Michael Jam writer what, you know, your website, stuff like that. Right. I would just put it in writing near the end. Yeah. On the screen. Because then it's there a little bit subliminally. And they don't have to wait for the, because if they've heard you, if they like your posts and they watch you all the time, they know that's the end of your post. They'll cut out early.Michael Jamin (00:30:10):Interesting. So you're saying put But if I put it up on there, cause I, I do this to get people on my newsletter Right. To, you know, cuz that you get their, but you're saying if I, if I just say it'sFrank Caliendo (00:30:20):Up to say at the end, you spend two to three seconds going. Right. If you like what I said right. Go to Michael Jamin, Robert Writer what is it? Michael jaminMichael Jamin (00:30:28):Michaeljamin.Com/Watchlist is my newsletterFrank Caliendo (00:30:30):Slash watch. Okay. So if you, if you like what you've heard, go to Michael Jamin slash wa slash slash watchlist stuff like this and other things that I gotta Now now they've got, now you've, now you've given them a little piece, which is what's everybody telling you to do? They all tell you well get the call for action. Yeah. But if they've seen your post and they like your posts, they don't need that anymore. Right.Michael Jamin (00:30:53):What if they're brand new? What if they'reFrank Caliendo (00:30:54):Brand new? If they're brand new, you put it, you just put it up on the screen. You put it up on IMichael Jamin (00:30:58):The screen. What do I put on the screen?Frank Caliendo (00:30:59):On the screen? You just write it on the screen. Yeah. Say like more stuff like this.Michael Jamin (00:31:03):Oh, okay. For the whole thing. For more. Okay.Frank Caliendo (00:31:05):Or, or in the last, the last third of what you say. Okay. Just have it up there. And in the, because you do that, you can try, you can, you can experiment and do it both. Do it, do say it sometimes put it up on the screen. Do both mm-hmm. sometimes just put, put it at the end and, and test it. Yeah. Because I could be, I can be wrong. I can be wrong here. But I'm telling you, I watched to the end of yours because I know because I want yours to do well, Uhhuh, , I'll do it, but I'm tempted as soon as you go into that mm-hmm. , I tempted to flip up andMichael Jamin (00:31:39):All right. What,Frank Caliendo (00:31:40):What I found with my stuff, if I introduce things, sometimes people don't even wanna see me introduce it. I just put the title of what I'm doing on the screen.Michael Jamin (00:31:49):Uhhuh ,Frank Caliendo (00:31:50):I don't tell you, you know, I don't tell you what I'm doing. I put the title on the screen to tell you what I'm doing and I get right into it. Right. Unless it's a reply to somebody's if somebody's, then I read their reply a little bit. Right. So they have the visual and you're reading the reply and you're saying something at the same time. So they're kind going back and forth. And then you do, you cut and do what they're saying. What is, what is your other, very quickly,Michael Jamin (00:32:16):What is your other tip for me? Is there anything else? I'll listen in. I don't know if my reader Yeah. What cutsFrank Caliendo (00:32:26):I would cut, I would cut a lot. You don't cut much. Oh, oh,Michael Jamin (00:32:30):Oh.Frank Caliendo (00:32:31):Visually you do, you do things in one.Michael Jamin (00:32:33):Yeah. No. You know why? Because I just don't wanna produce anything. I don't wanna spend time. Right.Frank Caliendo (00:32:36):I get it. I get it. I get, I get it. And, and, but like a friend, somebody I know used to work at YouTube and they're like, just cut, just cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. And you don't even have to really produce it. All you have to do is just splice, splice, splice slightly. Make things bigger and smaller. You don't even really cut any air out. But I, if, if you look at, if you look, you just put it in iMovie or they actually have it in there. Now. If you don't even, you don't evenMichael Jamin (00:33:01):Too much word.Frank Caliendo (00:33:02):I get it. If you watch most of my stuff that's new. There is no real effort into writing it. , Uhhuh. It's just saying words over and over.Michael Jamin (00:33:13):. Right. It's,Frank Caliendo (00:33:15):I won't put the time. Now what I'm starting to do is go back, like you said, let's talk about the Seinfeld thing. When I put the Seinfeld thingMichael Jamin (00:33:21):Out, and that was from Frankie. OhFrank Caliendo (00:33:23):Right. That was from, and it was critically panned. Like it's terrible. Like critics told me it was awful.Michael Jamin (00:33:28):. Ok. I liked it.Frank Caliendo (00:33:30):Yeah. And it's even cut even shorter. It's, it's even, I think the full things like pretty good. There was one of the things I was the most proud of, Uhhuh or the proudest of. And but it's one of those things where , it's so funny cuz it really does look like a South Park version cuz I'm so fat. At the time we made it that it's that, that it just looks like, I call it sign fat. Right. But it was weird cuz if I had guest stars on the show, it would, it would even make it tougher for disbelief, you know, suspending belief or di is it suspending belief or suspending disbelief.Michael Jamin (00:34:03):Suspending disbelief.Frank Caliendo (00:34:05):So, okay, so, so you,Michael Jamin (00:34:07):Yeah. So you're not disbelieving it,Frank Caliendo (00:34:09):Right? So you suspend your disbelief when you see somebody, all the characters look kind of the same. It fits, but all of a sudden you have somebody that looks more like the person because they're skinnier or something like that. A sudden it looks up like, but that Seinfeld thing, it was actually from my, my act was my, the way I did it in my act was I tried to, I always trying to think for the impressions. And so my, my thinking of the Seinfeld bit and my act was Seinfeld is about nothing. It's about reality. It's about everything that happens a reality. Well, what takes you outta reality? So it was drugs. Mm-Hmm. . So I thought put Seinfeld on drugs. And the, the, the bit was why do my fingers look like little people? Who are these people? They doing, they're talking to each other.(00:34:54):They're probably talking about me when I say Jerry, oh, somebody. Hey Jerry, you look like you've been seeing little people on your fingers. That's great. You just let that cat. And then at the end it was Newman and Newman's like, hello Jerry, hello Newman. And she would've lost a sort of Jerry Garcia grateful dead commitment of stamps. She would see them baby . So he'd licked the stamps. You know, that was the bit. So there was reality and it turned back into AED episode. But the whole bit was instead of reality, how do I get into a fantasy world? And that was the easiest way to to, to(00:35:28):Do it. Right.Michael Jamin (00:35:31):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.(00:35:54):It's fucking, your voices are amazing. I mean, that sounds amazing. But tell me, I have another question up for you. I'm just, I'm curious, I know you're, I actually wanna mention this, so I know you're, you, you got two shows coming up in, in Phoenix, right? Yeah. Where you do, where you go and it stand up, you're doing voices as well, or like, right? OrFrank Caliendo (00:36:11):Yeah. I, I just, what I do is, I'm, I, so what I, what I like to do is, I always hated the vaudevillian impressionist Uhhuh . What if,Michael Jamin (00:36:21):Oh yeah.Frank Caliendo (00:36:23):You know, what if Carrie Grant was your waiter, well, why, why would he be, first of all, that's bad writing, right? ,Michael Jamin (00:36:32):Why would he be your waiter? WhyFrank Caliendo (00:36:33):Would he be a waiter? Remember, years ago, I think it was on the white was it the white album? The that Dennis Miller did? Uhhuh . He's like . He was like and these impressionist, I think Jack Nicholson as a fry cook at McDonald's. I mean, how about you as a fry cook at McDonald's? Chachi, get some writing. You know? So it was it was, I was always like, I wanna write for these characters. So what do would I do? I would make observations. So the way, and that would give me my point of view. So Pacino, he's an actor, right? So I was like, what do act what do they teach you in acting? Be curious. Be amazed by everything. So the simplest thing, Pacino can be amazed. Like somebody's turning on a light. He's like, wait a second, you mean to tell me you flip a switch over there? A light comes on over here. Wow. . So he's amazed by everything. That's the point, right? And that's what my Pacino character always was. And he, and chewing gum. So that'sMichael Jamin (00:37:34):Dead onFrank Caliendo (00:37:34):Man. It's make those, make those observations and then apply them in situations later. So it's observational comedy, but I was just observing how people were. Robert Downey Jr. Is a human. Twitter feed, 280 characters are less and everything's about himself. So he'd give, be giving out an Academy Award, which is supposed to be about the nominees, but the, but he'd be up there like, these people deserve your applause almost as much as I do. Hashtag awesome. So it's, that's the point of view, right? Set it up. That's funny. Bring it back. So once you have that, now you can, now the audience is in on what your point of view is. Now you can put them in situations, which is really what you do with characters in writing. You know, any kind of sitcom or any kind of a, any, you know, any kind of drama, anything.(00:38:25):It just takes longer to get them to who the character is an impression most of the time, and this is why impressions are cut away from acting so much where people think there's no acting in impressions because it's just, you know, somebody, there was Robert De and they work on, are you talking to me? Well, where's the, where's the writing for that? It's the vallian part, right? Come up with something that tells you who the character is. Right. And now write for it. And now it's an interesting character. And that's what you know any type of original character, it just takes longer to get there. And that's why a pilot, right? A television pilot, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, you do this more than me. Let's see. There's a lot more exposition and telling, kind of telling people, okay, hey, I'm just your local waitress. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And they tell you a little bit because they have to do it to get it done. To get it sold. Yeah. And then once it's, once you kind of have it, now you can develop the characters and you have, you have arcs that can build the character to something longer. Yeah. And that's why a lot of pilots get rewritten and redone because the pilot's almost a presentation just to sell it. And it's almost two on the nose. It's a to be what you want.Michael Jamin (00:39:40):But tell me what it's like when you do, like, when you go do a show or two shows, like literally, what is that? Like? You get on a plane, you arrive a couple days before your show, likeFrank Caliendo (00:39:51):The day, usually a day off, the day of just get there. YouMichael Jamin (00:39:55):Do a sound check or no, you just go up on stage likeFrank Caliendo (00:39:58):A theater. I'm probably have the guy opening for me do a sound check. I don't, I don't even, I just go out there and show up and head so I have more energy. I mean, it's just, I like to get out there and just start going. I have a plan. Uhhuh, I have a lot of stuff that I've, I will do that I've done, you know, that I've worked on and done before. But now I try to, I actually like to do clubs a lot more than theaters. Why is that? Because I get to play more and I don't feel, I feel like somebody goes to the theater, you know, they, you feel like they, even though they're not, you feel like it should be a little bit more put together and professional. I feel like at a club, it can,Michael Jamin (00:40:34):A club, you can get heckled. They're not necessarily coming to see you. If you go to a theater, they're coming. They're paying seeFrank Caliendo (00:40:40):Me, 90, 99%. They come to see me at a club. Now if I'm doing a club, yeah. Cuz I'll do like off nights. I'll do like a Tuesday or a Wednesday. The, the general audience isn't going for that. And tickets will sell in advance. I mean, it, it's, that's, that's what I, that's what I likeMichael Jamin (00:40:57):To do. Is, is it theater though? More, more seats usually.Frank Caliendo (00:41:00):Yeah. It's harder to sell. 'em, You, you've gotta figure you're gonna sell. Probably you can probably, cuz people are, they're trained to go to a club and you'll get some people that fill other seats and it'll, it'll snowball. People will talk about it more. Uhhuh . And they have a built in advertising in everybody who goes to that venue. Three or four, you know, five shows a week.Michael Jamin (00:41:20):Interesting.Frank Caliendo (00:41:20):Sees that you're gonna to be there. And they're a comedy audience already. A theater doesn't necessarily have a builtin comedy audience. It might be that's 9%.Michael Jamin (00:41:31):But they're not coming in a comedy club. They might be drunk, they might be hostile, they may heckle. They're not, they're, it'sFrank Caliendo (00:41:38):Not, not, it's not as bad anymore. It's, it, yeah. Most of the clubs are that that's, that's kind of a nineties early two thousands as maybe eighties type of thing. It, that doesn't happen as much anymore because they have so much riding on everything. The clubs used to be, they would you just go there and do a nightclub set and they, they, they'd turn 'em in and out, two drinks, four drinks, and get 'em in and out. Now they're selling them dinner. Uhhuh, they, they, they realize they were given away the five, they were, they're restaurants now that have entertainment. Right. Because they would, they would bring everybody in and nobody, they would give everybody else all the food and beverage around the showtime. And they would, they were realized, well we can do this too. And some of 'em do it. Really,Michael Jamin (00:42:21):Really. But they're not eating during the show. You don't want the meeting show.Frank Caliendo (00:42:24):Yeah, they're,Michael Jamin (00:42:24):Yeah. Yeah. They're, and you're hearing like the silverware and stuff?Frank Caliendo (00:42:27):Yeah, it's, it's, it's usually more of a finger food. But they're, yeah. They're, they're so are some that have full-on, you know, but that, that a lot of that happens during the opener or mc too. By the time I'm up, they're, they're, they're a drinking and they're warmed up and they're, they've gotten their food already.Michael Jamin (00:42:45):And then do you travel with their, with your, with your opener Or is it a local guyFrank Caliendo (00:42:50):Or one? I bring people with me because I know what they're doing. , Uhhuh, . I, I, I'm, I'm a control freak in terms of what's on before me. Right. Because I'm very clean. Even when I try to be dirty, it doesn't work because people wanna see me for being clean. Right. but I've had, I, you know, an opener thinks they're clean and you, you know, I only say that word once, like, wow, that's too many times for some of my audience. Right. Or they, they, they, they, they're not expecting it. Cause they've been there to see me before and I'm the one who's gonna get the emails in the club is. And so I just bring people that I know are gonna play and then I don't have to watch the set over and over and over.Michael Jamin (00:43:31):And then you, and then after you'll you how many shows?Frank Caliendo (00:43:35):Two is the most I'll doing at night, but I'd rather just do one. Right.Michael Jamin (00:43:39):It's exhausting. It's exhausting to hold that kind of attention for pe to people.Frank Caliendo (00:43:43):Yeah, it is. And I just have the point where I, I do it and I have, when I have fun doing it mm-hmm. , that's when I go up and do it. And if I go up and I'm creating some, I'm having fun. If I'm doing an old set just for money and not creating, I'm not having fun. And that happened to me for five to 10 years where I was just doing the same thing all the time. I was making a ton of money Uhhuh. But I think some of my audience got like, well you're doing the same exact set. And it was just going, kind of going through the motions. And I, that wasn't a great time for myself for, you know, me personally. Not like I had anything wrong with family or anything. Like I just wasn't having fun doing the comedy.Michael Jamin (00:44:24):AndFrank Caliendo (00:44:24):Then weMichael Jamin (00:44:25):Will you leave the next day or what, what or I don't wanna cut off. IFrank Caliendo (00:44:28):I used to leave the next morning, first flight to try and get home. Cause I have two little kids right at the time. Two little kids now. They don't like me that much anymore, so. Right. I don't mind going away for a little Do you have kids?Michael Jamin (00:44:39):I do, but they're grown. Yeah. They'reFrank Caliendo (00:44:41):In college. Yeah. So, so you know that, I mean, when they're little, I was missing a lot cuz I was working a lot when they were little. I'd be on the road for a couple weeks at a time. I didn't see my son's first steps. I mean, I just, I didn't like that kinda stuff. SoMichael Jamin (00:44:56):But you knew going into it, when you went to comedy, you knew that that's, that's what the life is gonna be like, right? Or No? Were you surprised? Yeah.Frank Caliendo (00:45:03):But you kind of assume you're gonna go you, you know, you Yes, yes. You do know. But you're also thinking maybe I'll land a TV show, Uhhuh , maybe I'll do, you know, you, you, I don't, and I didn't plan, I didn't plan in the terms of that. But listen, I don't have to work. I honestly don't have to work anymore. I really don't. I I'm, I'm at a point where I don't, so I do things that I really want to. Right. And I, you know, the NFL on Fox stuff, because I was associated with a NFL Hall of Famers and stuff. Like, I do big corporate shows for, you know, oh, do you? For the biggest, for the biggest companies in the world, Uhhuh. And that's, that's what I do. People, you know, I, you, you see one date on the you know, on my public dates, because I live in Phoenix, I don't have to go anywhere.(00:45:52):So I'm just gonna do it. I can do, I can go do it and I can, I can be home. People are asking me to do shows all the time. I'm like and also do a run of one night at different clubs so I can, I don't like looking at the same back of the room for, you know, five or six days. You know, three, four days, five shows. I just, I don't enjoy. So I don't do it. Right. I I I try to do the things now that I like to do. Michael Jamin (00:46:19):I didn't know your feet,Frank Caliendo (00:46:20):So I've saved a lot of money.Michael Jamin (00:46:22):How are you getting acting gigs in if you're all, if you're outFrank Caliendo (00:46:24):There? Well, have you seen me in anything? I don'tMichael Jamin (00:46:27):. That's why.Frank Caliendo (00:46:29):Well, yeah. I don't, I, I don't I go, I go out to la I'll, I'll do some stuff on tape and things like that. Uhhuh , and people ask for me. But I, I, I, you know, yeah, there's, people call me now and I'll get people are like, Hey, will you do this? I'm like, yeah, if I don't have to do it, yeah. Yeah. I just go do it. And I was like, yeah. Like, I just did something recently that was a, a Zoom thing. Like it was actually Zoom in a movie, like a small, you know, like a, a Netflix kinda thing. Like, they're like, you can, you can, you don't even have to come here, you can just do a Zoom thing. And we made, it made the part became bigger. Right. Cause we, you know, I I I call it being serious to the point of being funny where you're just so serious. It's Will, will Ferrell does it really, really well. Right, right. Where you're so serious that it becomes funny. I that's what I, that's the comedy I like. I don't like hail I paid. Right, right.Michael Jamin (00:47:22):Here'sFrank Caliendo (00:47:23):My testicles. That's not the kind of comedy I really like, but it's, a lot of times it's what you have to do to get like the, the funniest thing to me. I like that really uncomfortable stuff in serious. So, better Call Saul, you, are you a fan of that show? Yeah,Michael Jamin (00:47:40):Yeah,Frank Caliendo (00:47:40):Yeah. I like that. Mike Erman Trout.Michael Jamin (00:47:42):Yeah,Frank Caliendo (00:47:43):He's great. Will just odenkirk they will crack me up because it's not, they're not doing anything big and funny per se. They're just in a really awkward situation. But it's, the stakes are so high and it's really important. La Los Salam, monka, you know, it's like, yeah.(00:48:04):All these things are so, like, and stuff Brian Cranston would do on breaking Bad. And you'd watch them and you'd go, ah, like, I'd like to go. God, you're good. I go, that's the stuff that when somebody's just the character and I go, I, I was watching billions. I watched Billions and I started watching Paul Giamati and that's why I started doing that impression, just because I'm like, he's so good. And he's so, I believe these are ways, like, he's just so, like, the intensity and you, you know, you kind of know where he is going before he does, and then he can zig or zag and that's what makes him great. Cause you think you got him pinned down and you're like, oh.Michael Jamin (00:48:51):But, so what's interesting I'm hearing is that, so you have a platform, a stage where you can write, perform pretty much whatever you want to do, but at this point you kind of want someone else just to write for you. And I, I'll, I'll be, I'll just act, you know,Frank Caliendo (00:49:04):That's more of a, and I'll add my pieces if, if that's what you want. Like, I'll add a little flair or that, that's really more what I do wanna do. Yeah. I mean it's, it's, I dunno, I don't want the, this is gonna sound terrible, but it, I, maybe it is, maybe, but after having a couple shows that I developed or, you know, development deals that just fell apart and weren't what I wanted them to be. Mm-Hmm. , I just wanna be in somebody else's who's a real good fighter and go, let's work together. I like being part of a team. Right. And I don't wanna be on a team where somebody wants to do something completely different than me. Right. I don't wanna do that. But if somebody's in the same, in the, in the same wavelength and they're going, and you, you know when that is, can you just start having fun?(00:49:52):You go, that's what I was gonna say. And then you, you do it and they're like, I, I know. Don't even say it. I'm gonna do exactly what you're about to say. Mm-Hmm. , this is it. Don't worry if I don't, we'll shoot it again, but I know what you're gonna say right here. Cuz I saw the light bulb go on with you as soon as it on with me. Here we go. Right. So, yeah. I, that's, I wanna, I wanna be a part of somebody else's thing. That's really, and, and when people think of me, they think I wanna be a one man band. I didn't even wanna be a one man band on my own show. I, I, I, I just, right. I don't know. I, I like being something, I like being part of something bigger. And it doesn't, agents don't always understand that either, because agents a lot of the time, like, you could, you should do your own thing. I'm like, but if I do my own thing, then it's just about me. I'm sick of it being about me. How about it is about,Michael Jamin (00:50:41):I'll tell you this cuz this gets back to Spade, but I'm just, shoot me. He didn't wanna be on screen. If he wasn't, he wanted to hit a home run, walk off, stay stage. I mean, that was it. He didn't need to hang around. He didn't need to count lines, he didn't need to have storylines. He's like, no, just lemme hit a couple home runs and I'll, you know, I'll do what I need to do and then leave.Frank Caliendo (00:50:59):And, you know, and, and you and you're, you're better like that. You're, you're better because you don't look like you're hanging around you. People can't wait to see you come in. Yeah. People know that your part's going to be fun. Now everybody can't be that. You have to have people that are going to drive the show. Right. Right. Arthur on king of Queens. Mm-Hmm. , you know, he is gonna come in from the base and be like, I had no idea this was gonna be this way. By the way, he had one of the greatest Jerry Stiller came up me, I did the Seinfeld bit Montreal at the Montreal Comedy Festival. Uhhuh . Jerry Stiller comes up to me afterward and it's the greatest. Like, this is awesome. He goes, you know, I really enjoyed your show, especially the portion. And I was like, oh, that is, oh, thank you Mr. Stiller. He's like, now could you tell me where the bathroom is? ?Michael Jamin (00:51:49):HeFrank Caliendo (00:51:49):Just wanted to know,Michael Jamin (00:51:50):SaidFrank Caliendo (00:51:51):You just wanted to know when the bathroom was . And that was, I told j I told Ben Stiller that I told him that at, it was, I think it was after his father pass away. I did a show called Birthday Boys. And it was actually, it was, it was really a funny thing. But it was, he was playing a Robin Williams type teacher, dead poet society kind of teacher. Ben Stiller was, who was directed by Bob. Bob. Bob Odenkirk is directing it as a guest director. But it was so awesome. Yeah. see, there's go sir. So I, I, I told, I told that Ben Stiller just the moment he heard it, he's like, , like, like he was almost embarrassed. That's my dad. Like, that's just my dad being my dad. Like, I've been there, man. But I, I remember in that, that was one of my favorite things too. Well the, the thing they wrote is why I wanna tell you this too, was the bit they wrote was he's this, like I said, this dead poet society kind of teacher. But he's going, you know, he's, he's teaching outside the box and he's supposed to be teaching the Diary of Anne Frank, but he's teaching the Diary of Frank Kelly instead .Michael Jamin (00:53:02):Right. It's funny.Frank Caliendo (00:53:03):And, and it's, you know, it's a joke of making fun of me, but I was like, God, just to be in this joke. And Bob Oden is directing and Ben still is doing it. The birthday boys wrote it. It's like, oh. And I made Stiller laugh. Cause when Odenkirk kind of went off the script, he's like, just, he's having Mr. Stiller. No, he's having Ben just tell me. He's like okay. Adam Sandler at a, at a funeral. And I was like, oh grandma, where did you have leave? Where were you? I leaving And then Ben starts cracking up. He's like, I can't go. I can't go out. He stopped. He stopped. And I go, I just, Ben laugh on the set. Oh. I go, this is the greatest day of my life. And Stiller is like, let's get going. You know? He's like, no, he was, he was great. But it was so funny too cause it was a moment for me, like, oh, this is one of the people I look up to is one of the great reactors. Yeah. Like Ben Stiller as funny as he could be presenting somethi

This week Friend's Actress Maggie Wheeler is on the podcast discussing how she broke in, her career, and advice for aspiring actors.Show NotesMaggie Wheeler on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_WheelerMaggie Wheeler on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0923909/Maggie Wheeler's Personal Website: https://maggiewheeler.net/homeMaggie Wheeler on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maggiewheeler_official/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptMaggie Wheeler (00:00):Yeah. But you know, I'm so blessed because working on friends was just the most incredible creative understanding and agreement that that existed between, you know, from all angles. Yeah. And so the actors had a lot of free reign to, to, to work things out, to suggest things, to offer things. I had come from a show before that where I used to joke that they should cl in the credits. They should call me Clay Pigeon because, you know, a clay pigeon that you throw up and shoot at. Right. Uhhuh . Because every time I would say the slightest thing, I would say, would it be okay if overhear instead of if I said and No, no.Michael Jamin (00:37):You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.(00:45):Hey everyone, this is Michael Jamin. You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I got an excellent guest today. Now hang on you. I know her as the mom from the parking lot at the school that our, both our daughters go to because that's who we, we, that's when I first met her. And we used to hang out and talk and smoke cigarettes while the kids were getting ready to come outta class. But you know her probably so many things, but probably maybe most famously as Janice from friends. We're gonna talk all about her amazing career. Maggie Wheeler. Maggie, thank you so much for doing the show. Thank you. A round of applause, Mike. We'll put that in post .Maggie Wheeler (01:24):Thank you so much for inviting me to do your show.Michael Jamin (01:27):Oh, I'm so happy because you, you, I, I wanna hear about screenwriting basically from your end, from the, cuz you're a, a very successful working actor. Let me talk about some of the things you've done. I'm gonna roll through your credits to refresh you. Okay. Because you've been doing it so long. You've forgotten all these things. Remind me, I guess, right? Remind you of Archer, the Adams family. I didn't know you did the Adams family. Shameless Marin. I remember that because we worked together on that. You were Mark's ex-wife, Kung fu Panda. I'm just skipping around. There's so much I can't mention all Hot and Cleveland. Californian. I didn't know that. We'll talk about that. Curb your enthusiasm. Glenn Martin. I remember that one. Cause we worked so much. How much fun? That was fun. Cuz you can do, you're amazing with voices. Don't I'll let you talk Mary Maggie. I'm talking now. Okay. Sorry. I'm going through your credit.Maggie Wheeler (02:14):. I'll be quiet. Forgive me. Speak for speaking. I turn Please continue discussing StopMichael Jamin (02:20):Talk. I'm done talking about your credits here. How I met your mother. What a er. Dr. Doolittle. Three. I didn't know that. And obviously friends. You did a ton of those. Fat actress. Everyone loves Raymond. Listen to this. Credits. Csi, will and Grace. This is crazy guys. The parent Trap where you were the mom on that one. You Ellen? X-Files Dookie Hauser Seinfeld. Dreman. Which I love Dream on. I didn't know you did that. I mean, you have the to Okay, now you can say something.Maggie Wheeler (02:49):. Okay. I did not play the mother in the parent trap.Michael Jamin (02:51):Who were, were you Lindsay Lohan?Maggie Wheeler (02:53):I was Lindsay Lohan. Correct. . I I'm very versatile. No, I played the camp counselor Marvin Junior. Oh. Who gets covered into chocolate and feathers. AndMichael Jamin (03:03):Tell me about what everyone wants to talk about for probably first your, like the most of the famous the Janice. Tell me like when you auditioned for that. Yeah. Did, did you know that was gonna be a recurring go recurring role?Maggie Wheeler (03:14):No, it was a one shot deal. It was one episode, single episode. And and this, yeah, it said Fast talking New Yorker and I just thought I know her. She's she's in me all the way. So I just went and I did what I thought I should do.Michael Jamin (03:28):. See, that's the, that's the thing. Cause I'm gonna tell you this from a perspective of the writer. Even though I didn't write, have friends, this is what I imagine what happened, you, the audition, if if they had known it was gonna be a recurring part, they would've gone out to a big a-list celebrity, right? Correct. And so you came in, you auditioned for it, you were at the table read, which is the first day of rehearsal. And it's not uncommon for the regular guests, for the regular stars to not phoning in, but to save it a little at the rehears at the first day of the table. Cuz they don't want to bring it. But I'm certain you brought it 110% and this is what happened. And I wasn't there, but I've worked on another show. So this is what happened. The writers after the table read, they go back to the room and they talk about the, the story, but they also talk about the guest cast because I wanna make sure the, do we need to fire this person? Do we need to replace this person? And I'm sure they came back. Oh, she killed it. She killed it. And then I'm certain after the tape, after the show night, they'd like, okay, we're bringing her back.Maggie Wheeler (04:26):Because amazing. I mean, you know, I wasn't behind the scenes, so I can't say how the magic happened, but I, I'd love to think that that's what happened.Michael Jamin (04:33):I'm certain that's how what, because, and, and this is another thing, it's very rare to find from my, from where I sit an actor who really can do comedy that well. And so, and you killed it so much that they brought you back. I'm sure, like I said, I'm sure they didn't think it was a reg a recurring. They, they wrote No, they go get her back. Let's think of how we can bring her back.Maggie Wheeler (04:55):19. No, I think I, yeah. Nine, however many times all throughout the rest of the show. But, you know, I remember one of the writers telling me somewhere along the line, maybe after the fact, he said, you know, we used to sit there on those late nights when we couldn't break a script and something just wasn't working. And by two in the morning we'd be sitting there kind of, you know, tearing our hair out. And somebody would just say, what about Jan? Bring me back Janice . And that's how I kept coming back and coming back. You know it, which was amazing.Michael Jamin (05:20):What about Janice? That's perfect. That's per, yeah. And so when you, so when you audition for it, like how do you approach a script? I guess I wanna know also from the comedy point of view, how do you, like what do you, what's the first thing you do when you read the part?Maggie Wheeler (05:33):I think I hear life in a and in through my acting work and, and in my life as well. I think I hear a little bit through a musical lens. Like the music of language, the rhythm of the character. That's what I, you know what I find? That's how I find the person that I'm playing.Michael Jamin (05:47):The musicality. Cuz you're also a sa I know you're big on music. We'llMaggie Wheeler (05:50):Talk about that. Yeah, I mean, I love music and I love, I love singing. But I, you know, but, but I just feel like also because when, in my earlier days of studying acting, I was very fortunate to work with Anna DRA Smith. And Anna works in this incredible way. If, you know, she, she's, she's a genius and she, I think she won the MacArthur Genius Grant. But she's really so extraordinary and, and her process in all of her one woman shows, which are based on real interviews she kind of gave a little bit of that to me as a student of hers in a show that we did early on before she started doing her own big pieces. And so she said, she sent a bunch of us out. She said, go, I want you to go interview somebody that you know, and then tape it.(06:35):We all had our little cassette recorders. And then she said, and listen to it. And you'll see that. You ask them to tell a story. Some something that happened to them in their life. I asked my sister at the time, and they, and she said, you'll notice that there'll be a moment in the story where the pedal hits the metal. You know, just the, the, all of a sudden the gas is on and their, their cadence will change and their rhythm will change and it will accelerate. And that's the moment I want you to pick. And that's the moment I want you to do. And then from there, we did this process of, you know, writing it down word for word, finding a way for our ourselves to notate those rhythm changes, et cetera. And then really to recreate that character's kind of awakened moment. And I feel like that affected the way that I work a little bit too.Michael Jamin (07:16):But, so you, you even did that, like when you got the sides to audition for, like, let's say Janice, you do that for every role you like? Well,Maggie Wheeler (07:23):I don't know that I do it in such a laborious way. But I just think it's an instinctive way. Like, okay, so here are the lines and here is the thing. And she's saying, you know, the audition scene was, oh, I got you these socks and I don't remember the exact lines, but I got you these socks, you know, they're Winkle socks, you know, you have them, whatever she says, you can wear them however you wanna wear them. Mix and match moose and squirrel, squirrel and moose. And that just, that is just in me that moment. And I think it was that, it was just the, the hook for her. And then the, oh my God, stuff came later and the laugh came once I was on set. That was an organic thing that just developed itMichael Jamin (07:59):. I, you know,Maggie Wheeler (08:00):This moment with Matthew,Michael Jamin (08:02):You really made her an iconic character. You really did. You really Thank you. You know, and it's so, I, you, you know, when, when an actor does that, it's such a relief. A lot of people don't realize. It's like when we're auditioning, it's different now, obviously cuz everything's on tape. But Yeah. When an actor comes into the room and you've done this plenty of times, you audition for producers and the producers are like this. Right? Yeah. . And, and it's not because we're one trying to intimidate you. It's because please save us. I know that. Please just hit it outta the park so we can stop this fucking process and go home.Maggie Wheeler (08:35):I know that. I tell that to young actors. Like when I go to talk to acting students and stuff, I tell them mm-hmm. , they just wanna know You've got it. Yeah. Yeah. Now the problem is, as an actor, it's like there are moments, there are days where you just, you wish you had it bottled and you wish you could just kind of toss it back and walk in the room and like, I've got it. But so many factors can interrupt that, that flow. You know, if you want it to badly, that can be an issue. , you know mm-hmm. , somehow you have to kind of wrangle that desire and desperation, like wrap it up and leave it outside the door because people smell that and feel that mm-hmm. and that feels, doesn't feel safe to the people on the other side of the desk. You know, there just has to be that kind of perfect alchemical embodiment of the character plus like your own ease that allows the mm-hmm. , the, the folks on the other side of the table to go to do that thing that you just illustrated. Which is like, oh, thank you.Michael Jamin (09:30):Yeah, thank you. But how did you get into, like, even before that, cuz you have a lot of ma many credits before friends. Like, how did you get into, how did you get into act? Like how did you start? You wentMaggie Wheeler (09:42):I was a teenager in New York City and I really wanted to act badly. AndMichael Jamin (09:48): and your mother couldn't talk you out of it. my mother,Maggie Wheeler (09:50):She tried , please let me go to professional children's school. No, , please let me go to an acting camp. No. so, you know, I tried everything I could. I, in, in high school, I joined an afterschool musical theater troupe called the Mary Mini Players that did musical theater for kids, original musical theater by children, four children. Oh wow. And we performed in the basement of the Broadway theater or Broadway hotel. I can't remember where the hell we were. And he was crazy. And so that was sort of my first sort of feeling like I was getting somewhere. And then I used to buy the trades Uhhuh, really. And in high school I would cut school and go stand in line behind a bunch of 20 somethings and audition for something. I had no business auditioning for a, I wouldn't have been able to do it. I mean, they were industrials and, you know, silly things like that. Dance auditions things. I was, I mean, I was, I did not belong there, but I was just trying and trying and I was brave and bold and a little stupid. So, you know, that, that was good for me. And then I found a manager when I was in high school andMichael Jamin (10:52):Really in New York?Maggie Wheeler (10:53):In New York, Muriel Carl Talent Management. And and I went in there and I had to audition. I had to read copies, sing a song, do a thing. And you know, it was like, if Chris guest made a movie about, you know, children in, in, you know, performing children, this management company would be, you know, the illustration of what he would, he would create. So anyway, Muriel Carl, I had to audition for her, but I was the only person there without a parent because my mother said, no, f and a, no, I'm not going, I'm not taking you. I don't give it shit . Whatever, whatever you, you're on your own. And so all these mothers were in there with like multiple children and matching outfits, you know, sing from your reel, read from your reel, still louder. Do it louder. So anyway, I started auditioning professionally and got rejected for every single possible thing. Yeah. And then my first professional job was in radio doing voiceover for CBS Records. And I got pulled out of a little, I got, I got booked in a crowd of kids and people just saying, Ooh, the Rubens for some musical group in the, in the seventies. Ooh, the Rubens. Ooh, the Rubens. And they said, the guy, you know, the engineer said, who's the kid with the low? With the low voice? And I was likeMichael Jamin (12:05):Oh,Maggie Wheeler (12:05):, I'm out.Michael Jamin (12:07):AndMaggie Wheeler (12:08):They gave me the spot and then they kept hiring me back. So I started in radio and doing extra jobs. You know, I was in, I was an extra in commercials and a couple of movies and justMichael Jamin (12:18):Seeing. But then how did you make the jump to come to California?Maggie Wheeler (12:21):So I I, when I was 20 something doing, you know, off, off off Broadway, whatever, everything I could do in New York, anything to be busy. Yeah. some including summer stock and a whole bunch of other things in between just to keep myself acting. My sister's ex-boyfriend's current girlfriend was working for Lauren Michaels when the year that he left SNL and decided to do a primetime sketch comedy show called The New Show. And he was auditioning for the new show and she reached out to me and asked if I wanted to audition. And I said, absolutely. The answer is yes. Yeah. And then she said, okay, you need to do six minutes of original standup. And I locked myself in my bedroom and cried because I just thought, I don't even know how to do that. I don't even know what that is.(13:08):I can't do, how do I do it? So I ended up writing six minutes of standup that had a lot of character driven stuff in it. Mm-Hmm. stories from my life, you know just characters from my life. And then I also wrote into it a sketch, a conversation between Julia Child and Jacque Gusto talking about Sea Bass and and him about, you know, the beautiful you know, undiscovered deep waters and her about cooking it. But anyway, I don't know. I did whatever the hell I did. And then I auditioned for that show and then they threw me up there to, to improv with with Brian Doyle Murray and, and Wow. And and all these people from S sctv. It was crazy. And I got the job. So that was my first real significant professional job. Right. And when it got canceled, I moved to Los Angeles because I thought, this is my moment and I have to take it.Michael Jamin (14:00):But was the shelf shot in LA or itMaggie Wheeler (14:02):Was in New York? No, New York. It was in New York. Oh, okay. And so when that was over, I got my license, my little hot license. I also didn't really know what to do with that. And I came out here and and I went to, I, you know, I went about my working life and I lived here for a year and I got one job. I worked on the paper chase.Michael Jamin (14:18):Right.Maggie Wheeler (14:19):And and then I got a call from New York from Ranken Bass, the creator of all the fabulous and a magic Christmas specials we all grew up on. And and they were casting a superhero cartoon. And they had, they found out about me from Lauren. And and I flew myself back to New York to audition for that. And I got it. So that brought me back to the city. And I did animation for several years in the city before. And in the midst of all that, I ended up making an independent film called New Year's Day. And when that was opening, I moved back here.Michael Jamin (14:50):That's another thing you're so good at, and this probably is cuz cuz you're a wonderful singer, but it, it's probably, cause I imagine the two are related cuz you can do all these voices and you, cuz you can hear them. And obviously I think it's comes right, that, that has to tie into your singing, don't you think?Maggie Wheeler (15:04):I guess it's all kind of a, of a piece. You know, I'm not like the a singer's singer. I can't, I don't have some extraordinary range or, or like golden vocal chords. I'm not a Broadway singer. I'm not a, you know, I'm, I I, there I have limitations to my singing voice mm-hmm. . but I do sing and I do direct a large choir here in Los Angeles that I've directed for 17 years called the Golden Bridge Community Choir. And I invite other people to sing. So, you know, it's, it's actually, it's like, it's like my little, my little secret plan, since I'm not a soprano, I just get a lot of other people in the room. I go, okay, you guys sing this part, you do this, you do that. But anyway, I I, I do love music, but I've also always loved mimicry from the time that I was little. And so I love voices. I love character voices. I loveMichael Jamin (15:50):Music. Do you practice that then? Like what do you do?Maggie Wheeler (15:53):I don't know. Do I practice it or do I just go on instinct? I feel like I just go,Michael Jamin (15:57):Because what I because we hired you on Glen Martin to do, I don't remember what voices, but you were like, oh, she could do all thoseMaggie Wheeler (16:03):. You hired me. You asked me, you called me and you said, can you do an Irish accent? Yeah. Because you wanted me to play flame Bang.Michael Jamin (16:10):That's what it was. It was sortMaggie Wheeler (16:11):Of, we also made O'Connor.Michael Jamin (16:12):But that's another thing when you come in for animation, and people should know this, that we, most of the time you get paid to do three voices. Yeah. Because so you have to be able to do more than one voice.Maggie Wheeler (16:22):Correct. And I did. And then when I got there, you said to me I don't remember why this happened, but you needed a song and you didn't have it. So I wrote the song for you, put that on the couch, . And I was like, you need what? You, you said, these are the lyrics, you know, you will, you write a melody. So I did that. And then eventually you hired Chrissy Hein and she came and sang it.Michael Jamin (16:45):Yeah, yeah.Maggie Wheeler (16:47):Yeah. That was veryMichael Jamin (16:48):Cool. Yeah. Was Isn't that funny? And she came to the , she came in like a rockstar. So she came in with a cigarette. And I remember my partner saying, yeah, you're not really supposed to smoke in here. And she's like, yeah, well, , it'sMaggie Wheeler (16:59):Too bad. Nice for you, .Michael Jamin (17:03):But yeah, but that's, we threw so much on your plate and you cause like, whatever, we knew you could do it. So you, you doMaggie Wheeler (17:08):It. That's the most fun. And I actually, I love that character. IMichael Jamin (17:12):Really do. Yeah.Maggie Wheeler (17:13):I, I love voice. I love voiceover work because I can do anything. I can be a baby. I can be Aron, I can be a tree, I can be an owl, I can be, you know, a bald Irish rocker.Michael Jamin (17:24):We got a couple of animated things on the burner. So maybe, hopefully if they go , we'll bring you back in for those. Yeah, I'll tell you more about those later. Okay, good. I'm so excited. You're already excited. I'm excited. Don't get your hopes up. You know how these things fall apart all the time. I do. I do. But but, but, so, but okay, so how else do you, I don't know, what is it like then to be like a working actor or someone like you because you know, people know who, who you are. What's it like on a daily basis?Maggie Wheeler (17:51):Well, I mean, look, what it looks like on paper is not the same as what it, what it is, you know? Mm-Hmm. , I mean, there's so many in, as you know, there are just these long, kind of, these valleys, there are huge valleys with no work. So if you kind of create a little map of my career and you put all the, you know, red pins on the, on the dots of my jobs, boy, I, it looks like I've worked a lot, but there have been obviously incredibly long fallow periods in between.Michael Jamin (18:16):And what do you do during those? What, like what, what's your plan? Well,Maggie Wheeler (18:19):I mean, I'm, I've done so many crazy weird things to sort of, you know, tied myself over in the, in the interim. But I have to say, you know, starting the choir and being a facilitator of, of vocal workshops, which I also do at retreat centers and different places like that has been a tremendous gift because I have this work that's like really soul driven. Yeah. And I'm in the company of other people making something happen in the moment, you know, unlike showbiz where you, you know, you're doing it and you're making it with the family, you're with, you're all in, in it together. And then it's done. And then there's, you know, and then there's this period of time before it airs. And then once it airs you, you're gonna hear about, you might hear about how it, how people respond to it, but it's not as, it's not direct.(19:02):So, so I do something where I'm creative in the moment. I'm giving people something in the moment and there, and it's, and the feedback is coming to me immediately and directly. Right. So I'm really fortunate. I have two, basically two careers. And then of course, I'm a mother. I'm a parent and I've been raising my, my family throughout all those years. I mean, my kids are older now. They're 22 and 27, so they're not home. But I will say, you know, these pandemic years have been some of my busiest years because I, I took the choir online and that mm-hmm. eventually became a more global experience because lots of people joined me from all over the world. And then I also created an event called Together in Song that I ran every Saturday for the first two years where I hired three other, so leader singer songwriter musicians to come on with me.(19:50):And we basically led the world in song every Saturday for an hour. And I had 4,000 people come over the, that period of time. Wow. So I, I think that, you know, wow. Being a creative human being, I, in a way I, you know, I know so many people suffered you know, in terms of their work lives or their feeling of purpose during this past couple of years mm-hmm. and for a lot of creative people, it was just this kind of moment to dive in more deeply and figure out how mm-hmm. , if you're a writer, how you, you know, you can write, if you're a musician, you can make music if you're, you know, what can you do online to make sure you're connecting with other people? So it, you know, necessity was the mother of invention for me, and I was very busy.Michael Jamin (20:32):Well, first of all, if people wanna learn more about that, they can definitely follow you on Instagram, golden Bridge Choir.Maggie Wheeler (20:37):That's, that's a private Instagram, but they can go to Golden bridge choir.com. Okay. and and all the information is there and they can get on my mailing list there. And then anything, any, anytime I'm doing anything that's open to the public, I will, I send out a huge mailing and people can join me online or they can join me in person, which Right. We're not doing so much of yet, but we will be.Michael Jamin (20:57):So here's, here's the thing that, here's the thing about you. You are truly an ar Like of all the people I know, you are an artist and probably your mother's, like your whole family's artists. It's like you really are, like, your husband's very, you know, he's a very successful, very talented Daniel Wheeler. Well, how, how is it installation art? How do you describe? He does a lot of stuff.Maggie Wheeler (21:18):He's a, he's a sculptor and a maker of all things from, you know, from small sculptures to installation work, to funerary objects. He does collaborative urn making for people who are either losing a loved one who are, are, are in the process of dying. Wow. He, he he does so many things. He also does kind of I forget the, I'm not, the word is is lost on me now, but, you know, like he people, people hire him to make objects and, and you know, whether it's furniture or sculpture, all kinds of things, he's very eclectic. Anyway. wheeler made.com for Daniel, if people are interested in going to check that out. ButMichael Jamin (21:56):The reason why I kind of bring it up though, is cuz so many people are intimidated, like, am I really gonna go into the arts? Like, what the hell am I thinking? But yeah, you do. Everyone in your family does. WeMaggie Wheeler (22:07):Do. I mean, it was, this is your life art. It's an Artie family. No one, I mean, you know, I have a daughter who's, who's just now starting as an actress mm-hmm. . And of course, you don't wish that kind of creative life necessarily on your offspring, just as my mother did not wish it for me, and threw herself in front of my body frequently to try to slow me down. And she often, you know, and then when I would cry and be so distraught over the, whatever, the rejections or the lack of opportunity or whatever, she would say, I never told you to do this. Nobody ever told you you had to do this. Who told you you had to do this. But if you have to do it, you do it. And if you don't have to do it, don't. Which is of course, what everyone tells you when you're young. If, if you don't have to do this, don't do it. Because basically you're living the life of a professional gambler, and you don't get to, you don't get the security. Right. But you do get this, I think, sort of incredible accelerated sort of spiritual path of trying to trying to identify what your value is and what your worth is on the planet. Because it exists only in the outside where people are gonna say yes and no to you. You're done for Right. Because there's too many nos.Michael Jamin (23:18):Right.Maggie Wheeler (23:19):I mean, my career looks like a lot of yeses, but there are, it's nothing in comparison to the nos.Michael Jamin (23:23):You're a lot of No.Maggie Wheeler (23:24):Yeah. you know, you have to, it, it just constantly brings you back to that sort of place when you get knocked down and you feel like crap. And no, no, oh, you know, I'm not good enough. They don't love me, it's never gonna happen, blah, blah. All the stuff, all the negativity. And in order to get up and survive, you have got to dig deep and figure out, you know, what your value is in a more immediate way.Michael Jamin (23:48):Does it feel like, though I don't, I think I know the answer to it, but does it feel like a competition to you? Or like what, you know, versus other actors?Maggie Wheeler (23:58):Yeah, I think I certainly felt that way for a very long time, and I still feel that way. Really. You know, it, I mean, I think so. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'd auditioned for something recently. I think, you know, my auditioned life is very, very scarce at the, at the moment. But every once in a while there's a little flurry and there, there was a flurry some months back mm-hmm. where there were like four auditions in a row, and they were all good. I was interested in all of them. They were all very different. It gave me an opportunity to stretch myself a little bit. And I was, I was inspired. And there was one audition that I did, and, and I, I knew it was good, you know? Right. I, I, I knew that I, I knocked it out of the park, but I also knew they weren't gonna give it to me because I knew that there was an alister that they, that would get the job. And I said at the time, to my loved, my loved ones, I said to Daniel, you know, I'm not gonna get this. They're gonna give it to so-and-so. And they did.Michael Jamin (24:51):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.(25:16):Yeah. And that's heartbreaking. And it's, it's outta your control. Yeah. Yeah. And it's outta your control. And that's sometimes that comes from the network or the, you know, whoever, because it's so strange. They really think they really think that having a bigger star attached, even for a guest role, they think it's gonna bring in eyeballs. It never does. I'm not sure itMaggie Wheeler (25:36):Ever does. And sometimes those, yeah. And I don't wanna say that sometimes those performances aren't as good. I, that's not fair to say, but sometimes they aren't. And also, you know, but, but I'm trying to think of, you said something before about, about how I, how Janice expanded into a, into a, a sea, you know, a a series long role. Yeah. And I, I often kind of refer to myself as a side door actress. You know, I usually get in the side door. I don't usually come through the front door. Right. I don't usually come, you know, for the, for the series lead. But frequently I have managed to slip in that side door in an interesting way. And out of it has come a really wonderful opportunity. So, for instance the parent trapMichael Jamin (26:17):Mm-Hmm.Maggie Wheeler (26:18):, when I got that script, I wanted that movie. And I thought, and here's this camp counselor. And I thought, oh no, they're never gonna give this to me. I'm in no way butch enough for this role, really. I can see the person they're gonna pick in my mind, but I thought, I've got to give them something. I just have to go. I have to go. Because I wanted it. And I thought, I'm just gonna, just gonna do something nobody else will do, because that's what I'm gonna do. So I , I put my hair in these pokey little weird braids, and I put on like, I think I had on overalls and a, and a coach whistle. Like, I dressed up like a, like a dorky sort of you know, camper. And I played, and I auditioned for this role with like a serious side sort of synt s situation where I was like a slightly odd, perhaps I never grew up. And I had this very serious speech impediment sort of thing, and it was a crazy idea. And the, the casting director looked at me, like tilted her head out from behind the camera and said, I think I need to take you to the director,Michael Jamin (27:29):. They didn't know what to do with it. And that's so funny. TheyMaggie Wheeler (27:32):Didn't know. So I came, I went in to meet Nancy Myers and Charles Shire, and I, and I, I was still in my crazy outfit. I was still ready to go. And he leaned over to his wife at the time and he said, does she really talk like that ? And she said, no, it's, she's JaniceMichael Jamin (27:49):. She she, did she talk like JaniceMaggie Wheeler (27:54):? So anyway, I got that role, but they didn't let me play her that way because Right. It was Disney and they didn't want you know, any kids who might have a sibling has to feel upset about it. So I had to lose that. Right. But that's how I got that movieMichael Jamin (28:08):By going on the limb.Maggie Wheeler (28:10):Crazy. Walked out there like a nutball.Michael Jamin (28:12):But tell me about, like, from your, from where, tell me about, from where you sound like, what's the, what's etiquette on set for an ac for an actor or even, or a guest actor? Like, what does it, what does it look like to you?Maggie Wheeler (28:24):What is etiquette on set?Michael Jamin (28:26):Like, what are you supposed to do? How are you supposed to behave?Maggie Wheeler (28:30):Well, that's interesting. I think when I immediately, like, I, I feel like I go through this rolodex of images in my mind from the sets where nobody talked to me, to the sets where I didn't have a proper dressing room to the sets where I was nervous because it was such a well-oiled machine, and I was slipping in to mm-hmm. , you know, and then I thought, and then it, it takes me right to kind of my first series job where I felt really sensitive about the guest ca at cast. And I always invited them into my dressing room and gave them a place to be. Right. so as a result of some, as a result, being so experienced along theMichael Jamin (29:06):Way, because it's hard. It is hard. You're stepping into a job that's already there and it's hard. I mean, it's like you're already insecure and now on, on top of that.Maggie Wheeler (29:16):Yeah. Some people say they really don't like that role of being a guest on a, on a series. I do really like it. I'm, I, I, I've, I don't feel, so maybe it's because I've done it so much that I don't feel so threatened by it. Uhhuh . I mean, the first time I did it was on Seinfeld and and I, and I, there was no, like, when it was lunch, they all scattered, like the lights got turned on in the kitchen and the cockroaches around, like, they were, they were all gone. It turned out they were up in the writer's room having like a catered lunch. But I, I didn't, no one told me anything. And I didn't know anything. It was my first, you know, guest role on a, on a big series like that. And I was really lost. Right. And then I had to ask somebody and they said, oh, you just go down to the commissary. Right. You know, but somebody, and I didn't have a dressing room on that show, soMichael Jamin (30:00):Well, you had, you had some kind of changing room.Maggie Wheeler (30:02):I must have, but I did. It wasn't quite, quite, you know, what I, what what I had later on. So anyway, but it was just one of those odd moments where I, like, there was no one telling me what to do and where to go. And so there's that. And then I don't really know how, what is the etiquette? Like, you just have to be ready to take care of yourself. That's it. Right. You gotta be ready to feed yourself, hydrate yourself, show up when they need you, go back to your room and pull it together in the in between and like Right. Manage your fear or your insecurities or whatever. So when you get back down. But, you know, I, I, it's funny, like, yeah, I don't know. I have found myself in all kinds of circumstances where I have feltMichael Jamin (30:41):Did you prefer more multi-camera, which is shot? People don't know. Shot, shot, live in front of a studio audience or, or single camera?Maggie Wheeler (30:48):I, I like 'em both.Michael Jamin (30:49):But it's a different way of performing, don't you think? Or No. I mean, how does it, how do you approach it, whether it's single or multi?Maggie Wheeler (30:56):Well, yeah. Single camera is something, I mean, multi, multi camera. I've done a lot more of, I would say. And, and and I've, you know, I really enjoy it because it's like live theater and you've got the response of the audience, and it's just that adrenaline rush of everything happening in the moment and changing things in the moment and fixing things in the moment. And it can be, you know, and that's really exciting. And that's how I started. I mean, you know, the new show was my first big show, and it was sketch comedy in front of a live audience. Right. And it was, it was, you know, I earned my stripes in doing that. And then, you know, but then when I did Californian Cation, I, I absolutely loved every moment. It's a lot long, you know, your schedule's a lot more unpredictable. You're there four in the morning, or you're leaving at four in the morning, or whatever it is. Yeah. And you basically have to hang your life up on a hook and say, I'll, it's hard. See you when it's done.Michael Jamin (31:44):Yeah. And how do, how, what about working with directors who are aren't, who really can't know, don't know how to talk to actors, , what's that like for you? ?Maggie Wheeler (31:53):Usually I get fired when that happens. , that has happened. I've gotten mean fired a few times. Well, I've been fired from a few jobs in my life.Michael Jamin (32:02):Because they couldn't, they didn't know how to talk to you. And what do you mean they couldn't get the performance outta you or what?Maggie Wheeler (32:07):I mean, each one, each circumstance is different. But in the, the most recent one was a situation where I was hired. I was hired without auditioning. And I was told before I was hired that they were concerned. They wanted to offer me the job, that they were concerned about hiring me. Mm-Hmm. , because they, the character was similar to Janice. Right. And I said, oh, well, I mean, you know, I can play any number of women from any number of burrows and I can give them all that flavor, but of course I'm not gonna play Janice. That's not gonna happen. I mean Right. You wouldn't want me to do that. Right, right. So I arrived, I had been on the East coast on vacation with my family, and I arrived back and it was end of August. I went straight to the job. Oh no. I got the script . And the first, the first line for my character was oh, dot, dot dot, my dot, dot.dot.Michael Jamin (32:58):That's not good.Maggie Wheeler (32:59):And I thought they do that. They can't really want that. So Yeah. I,Michael Jamin (33:03):They can't, they can'tMaggie Wheeler (33:04):Do that. I don't know if you, you had the distinct pleasure of watching the television show, mob Wives, but I was a bit of a fan of Mob Wives. Fantastic reality show. And and there's a, a woman on that show, her name is Tria Zo, and she is like, you know, mob adjacent, and I love her. So I decided I'll play Dita Zo. That's what I'll do. That's what they'll get. Mm-Hmm. . So I went in and I, we had the table read and all the people were there, and there was a strange vibe on the set. And then we went into rehearsal. Then it came to network run through day, which is Wednesday. And we did the run through. And this director who I don't wanna say too much about him, but I will say he's very, he was very tall and and yeah, he, he was a comp complicated character. And he came over and he looked down at me from his, like perch of six four. And he said, they're not happy.Michael Jamin (34:03):Right.Maggie Wheeler (34:04):And I said, what? And he goes, they're not happy. And I said, why? And he said, because, you know, you're not giving them what they want.Michael Jamin (34:12):JustMaggie Wheeler (34:12):Janice. And I said, what, what do they want? And he said, you know, and I said, I, I'm sorry, I don't. And he said, well, they want Janice.Michael Jamin (34:22):Oh God.Maggie Wheeler (34:22):And I said, well, they can't have her.Michael Jamin (34:24):Yeah.Maggie Wheeler (34:24):You know, I mean, and then I, and then I had to get, like, I had to get a little brave and like crane my neck to look up at him and say, look, I didn't just get off the bus. This character is, you know, created from another show. This is, we're on the Warner Brun lot. Go ask them. Yeah. If James Chan's character's name to Janice and pay me a little bit more. And then you can have what you want, but you canMichael Jamin (34:43):Yeah. Get the right to her.Maggie Wheeler (34:44):Play her, call her this and play me the, anyway, then I went into wardrobe and I said, listen, don't work hard.Michael Jamin (34:50): ,Maggie Wheeler (34:52):I'm gonna be fired today. And they said, no, you can't be fired. They can't do that. They can't ask you to do that. That's not possible. I'm like, can't watch you watch me. And then I, I had to go do a a, a radio, a podcast about voiceover, drove across town, went into these to see these folks to do their podcast. And I said, Hey, you know, I'm probably gonna get a call cuz I'm probably gonna get fired. And anyway, sure enough, they fired me by the end of that day because I wouldn't play that character. AndMichael Jamin (35:18):That's surprising because you're supposed to be as writers, you're not supposed to, you're supposed to know that you don't do that. Like it was, you have to have some shame. .Maggie Wheeler (35:26):It was cuckoo. So, yeah. So things have happened to me. I don't want, I don't wanna badmouth directors cuz I'm still trying to be an actor.Michael Jamin (35:33):. Well that's not that. I'm just saying not all. Like, because directors have two jobs. They have to work the cameras and they also have to get the performance out of the actors. Mm-Hmm. . And sometimes I see some, it's, it's rare to find a director who really could do both Perfect. As amazingly. Well it's hard. Yeah. Because it's two so different skills and sometimes I see a director talking to, it's like, oh no, that's not, that's not gonna work. You're not, that's not gonna get the performance outta of them.Maggie Wheeler (35:57):I think I've been lucky that I've worked on so many great sitcoms and those, most of those directors are just, you know, like they know that genre so well. Yeah. I think I, I have also worked on shows where somebody is a little bit newer and they feel like there's a lot they should be doing in the way of the, of directing. And so they're kind of going overboard, like tweaking a lot of things that might not necessarily need tweaking. And that can be a little frustrating. Yeah. But you know, I'm so blessed because working on friends was just the most incredible creative understanding and agreement that that existed between, you know, from all angles. Yeah. And so the actors had a lot of free reign to, to, to work things out, to suggest things, to offer things. I had come from a show before that where I used to joke that they should cl in the credits, they should call me Clay Pigeon because you know, a clay pigeon that you throw up and shoot at.(36:50):Right. Uhhuh. Because every time I would say the slightest thing, I would say, would it be okay if over here instead of if I said and No. No. Okay. And that's the way it was. There was just actress, shush, do your job, read every word on the page, don't change anything. Right. And sometimes it's like that. Right. But I have to say, I walked onto that friend set and I could breathe and so much great comedy came out of that Yeah. Environment. That slightly freer, more respectful kind of exchange of an environment. I mean Yeah. But I knowMichael Jamin (37:21):There's a reason why it was a great show. I mean that show, it was amazing how they kept on reinventing. I was like, you know. Yeah. It was obviously an amazing show. It's amazing. Wow. But so what, and so what advice then, I guess, I guess I have to ask you, what do you give to, you know, so you have two beauti, we talked about this yesterday. You have two beautiful daughters like I do. And this is, this is a problem because they're because you have beautiful daughters. That's a problem. And it's in and of itself . And then, but, and one is once again into acting and, and it's like, yeah, like we talked to us. You can't, you can't discourage that cuz you know what the word is cuz you got to live that life. Uhhuh . Like, how it's not, that's not fair. . So what do you, what do you tell her? What do you, you knowMaggie Wheeler (38:08):I think, you know, when, when what has saved me over so many years of staying in the business and obviously longevity is often, you know, half the BA or more than half the battle because mm-hmm. , there are these so many long stretches where nothing is happening. So yes. Staying in the game, obviously I, you know, I didn't, I didn't get friends until I, I mean, I'd already been acting for a long time Yeah. When I got that job. So you have to have staying power. And in order to have staying power, from my perspective, you have to have other things in your life that make you, that let you know that you have, you're living a life of purpose. Because if acting and performing is the only thing that defines your purpose, in my opinion, you're in trouble.Michael Jamin (38:59):Yeah.Maggie Wheeler (39:00):You have to. And whether that is this, and I used to tell, you know, again, I've spoken to actors of every sort of age from little to not so little over the years. And I used to say to the little ones, do, if you know how to sew a button on, teach someone else how a sew a button. Mm-Hmm. or if you know how to make a pie, make a pie and give it to somebody. I don't care what it is. Just whatever else you have, whatever other abilities you have in your kit bag that involve being purposeful that don't involve the mother. May I game of, can I take two steps forward? Yes. No. Yeah. You didn't raise your hand. Go back seven steps, you know,Michael Jamin (39:38):Uhuh, it's constantly asking for permission. When I was on, just shoot me, for some reason we did the, the the acting, the auditioning in the same bungalow as the writers. So I'd come to, you know, work, I'd go to my office and then there'd be a long row of actors auditioning. And it was, I, it was always heartbreaking to me. Yeah. It was like, because you'd have whatever, 10 actors for this part and probably three, three could probably do it and only one would get it and the other two would go home thinking, what did I do wrong? Or why can't I get the break? Well, because only one person can get it. That's the problem.Maggie Wheeler (40:12):Yeah. Only I, you know, I, we used to refer to it a lot of us when I, we were back like in my early twenties, and we would go all through all the processes and all the hoops and all the rings of fire. And then you get down to the network and they bring three actors to the network and you know, they've already chosen one. So basically it's just a gladiator sport because people have to die ,Michael Jamin (40:32):There hasMaggie Wheeler (40:33):To be blood on the floor. Yeah. Or, or it didn't happen. So, you know, we always knew that we were there as a human sacrifice, some of us mm-hmm.Michael Jamin (40:40):. Yeah. It's hard. So Yeah. So you had to just find ways have other worth and to feel. Yeah. Yeah. And make your own opportunities,Maggie Wheeler (40:49):I guess make your own opportunities. I mean that's the, I guess the beauty for this new young, younger generation is that there are so many ways of creating now and creating content now mm-hmm. that we didn't have, you know? Right. I mean, we had like, you know, we had, we had movie, we had like home movie cameras back when I was 19, 20, you know mm-hmm. , but that was about, we couldn't edit them. Right. so, so, you know, now there's just so much opportunity to make content or even at the very simplest level, if you're an actor, you know, to get people together and sit around and read something the way we used to do, it's like, let's read and play or, you know, like, let's just do anything so that we feel like we're making, we're making something, you know, even if it's gonna be gone by the time we were done. True. So, I don't know. It is, it is not an easy road, but it's, you know, you know it, you know it, Michael.Michael Jamin (41:37):I I I know it. I still think actors have it a little harder than writers, but, butMaggie Wheeler (41:43):Maybe it's, well we can't do it alone.Michael Jamin (41:45):Yeah. Well that's true. But I, yeah, it's, it's just, it's a hard, difficult, but I have a lot of respect and especially, oh God, , you know so I've, I've worked with actors, I've directed actors and then as you saw when I, cuz you came to my show and I was like, oh, this is so much harder than, than it looks . This is so much harder. I have such new respect after doing it myself, it's very hard.Maggie Wheeler (42:11):Yeah. I think they make, you know, like certainly in some of the directing programs now, they've make the directors take acting classes just the way they make, you know, I don't know, football players, I think you should in ballet. I don't know what it is, but, but yeah, so, so I think it's a good, it's a good move. I mean that my, my daughter Gemma, who just came out of a four year screen acting major mm-hmm. at college, had a chance to do everything from, you know, acting to writing, to directing, to editing to all of it. I, and I think that's what an incredible opportunity mm-hmm. to start out your, your career, having this kind of, you know, fully dimensional experience of what it is to make, to make something.Michael Jamin (42:50):I think, yeah, I say that I think actors need to study writing. I think writers need to study acting and I think directors have to study both, you know? Yeah. You have to know how to converse with both those people. Yeah.Maggie Wheeler (43:01):I think that that sounds like a be a better world. Let's, let's live that than that one.Michael Jamin (43:05):Yeah. . Yeah. That make believe world . Wow. It's just so interesting to hear your side. I don't know, it's just hear your side of the process of what it's like, you know, I don't know. Do, do you feel, I guess we talked about a little bit, but yeah, I mean, how much, when you're on set do, cuz you have to talk to, on, I'm, I'm babbling here, but you have to talk to, you have to please the director. Mm-Hmm. you also have to know, especially if you're guests are, you're really there to serve the main actor, the main character. Yeah. You're really there to serve them. It's their story and not make it about yourself. And and then also if there's a showrunner you, you may, you may begin conflicting notes from the director versus the showrunner and that and the show. You know, how do you, how do you navigate all that?Maggie Wheeler (43:55):I think like, it, it, you know, it's a great improvisation and part of the acting job is the material that you're given and, and the job you're given to do. And the other part of the acting job is the rest of what you just described. Mm-Hmm. . So, you know, it's just, you know you have to, you have to improvise your way through those conversations, through those moments where someone's talking to you and telling you something, you're not sure, you know, what it is that they want to mm-hmm. they're asking you to do mm-hmm. , but you don't wanna seem like somebody who doesn't know what they're asking you to do. It's all acting. I kind of think from the minute you get there till the minute you go, and obviously I, I mean I'm I'm saying that slightly sarcastically because not, it's not true in the best of circumstances.(44:37):You can relax into your sort of auth authentic self or your authentic experience. There might be somebody there who is generous or kind or, or you can laugh with or you can roll your eyes at if you're, if everything's, you know a jumble or confused because there's a director who feels like you're not getting it or anything, anything is possible. You know, I mean, I, I just saw Meryl Streep like a clip of an interview with her and she's saying, oh, well, you know, sometimes they tell me to, to where my mark is and that I should move to the left. And then inevitably I'll go. Right. And sometimes I do that three times, even after the director has told me not to go to the right because Yeah, I'm like that I forget things, you know, so she, I'm not perfect. And so she was really funny, just kind of bu busting the myth of, you know,Michael Jamin (45:33):So she wasn't being willful. She was like, I forgot.Maggie Wheeler (45:35):No, she just forgets. She just does what she, she's in the moment she's acting. She does. And I, and I can do that too. You know, I when you said you were a fan of Dream On and I was too. Of course. Yeah. And working with Brian, Ben, Ben, I mean, that guy never missed a mark. He, he knew I, we made a movie together in New York years and years ago. That's how we first met. And it was called, I, well I think it's called Divine Obsession. I think it was called God's Payroll. And maybe at the end it's called Divine Obsession. I can't remember. But anyway, I think it was, it was my first movie and and Brian was such a technician and he knew his mark and he never missed it. And he, it was incredible. I would watch him and I inevitably, I would step too far or not step far enough or lean over to the right or walk in the wrong direction or what. I mean, all kinds of things. And that guy was like a machine. He knew exactly where he needed to be and he got there every time. And and so working with him on Dream On was also wonderful because he was just, he's so, soMichael Jamin (46:34):Great at what he, it's so hard cuz you have to be in the moment, but you also have to be thinking of the note you just got. Yeah. And you're blocking. And also, but also forget all that cuz you need to be in the moment. Yeah. Oh, oh. And also, what am I supposed toMaggie Wheeler (46:46):Say? And when you're doing a, a sitcom, you know, they, you, you, you run through the thing, you run through the scene, you rehearse the scene, then they send you away, then they bring down the, the stand-ins, then they block the scene and they put all the marks down. Then you come back and the stand-in has like 27 seconds to say to you when you walk in your mark's over there. And when you step across the stage, it's over there. And when you make it to the couch, you're gonna see there's a mark that's right underneath the last, the back left leg of the couch. That's where your left foot go. It all happens so quickly. And I, yeah. When people start talking to me like that, I'm like, Uhhuh, , uhhuh, , uhhuh, . And I just think, I hope I remember what she said.Michael Jamin (47:19):Wow. And then especially on a multi-camera show, if a joke tanks, the writers will run into the set, say this in line instead. And you, but I, and just remember to just memorize. That's right.Maggie Wheeler (47:29):The other one, now there's a new one. Get ready. Go. And some people freak out. You know, I mean, you know this also in the, in the, in the land of animation because you know, we, I, I saw it happen when we were working together on one of those shows where somebody came in not really understanding what Yeah. What that world looks like and how quickly things get thrown at you and how, how fast-paced it is and like, do it again, but 10 pounds heavier, do it again. But now her hair, her face is blue, you know, whatever. She stuff happens quickly.Michael Jamin (47:57):Yeah.Maggie Wheeler (47:58):You know, and, and some people freak out and, and, and seize up.Michael Jamin (48:03):There's not a lot of time. Yeah. That's another thing. Not a lot of rehearsal, least on the shows that I do. It's not a lot of rehearsal . Do you, is it different for you? It's like you're hired Go .Maggie Wheeler (48:14):Go and go. Yeah. But it's, you know, when it's fun, it is the most fun. Absolutely the most fun.Michael Jamin (48:21):Yeah. That's the, that's the thing. When I was doing directing for the other voiceover, if I knew a actor wasn't gonna get it like the did you couldn't do it, I'd say, okay, let's do it three different ways. Three different ways. And then thank you so much. Cuz you just don you know, you don't wanna embarrass them, you don't wanna hurt them and you just know you're gonna recast it later, you know? Yeah. That's hard. That's hard. That doesn't happen a lot, but sometimes it does. Cuz you don't audition. You just bring, bring people in. You bring people,Maggie Wheeler (48:48):They come in and hopefully they can do it. And, and yeah. I don't know. I don't know that, I mean, I find that to be the most fun. I love that world Uhhuh. And when I started out in animation working for Ranken Bass, we would do these table reads because it was a fixed cast, right. There were like six of us, or five of us. I was the only woman. And and we'd have these table reads for each script and they'd give us all a chance to audition live for the new characters. So I was able to audition for male characters. Interesting. And the men were able to audition for female characters and Wow. We could all audition, audition for the cyborgs and the, and the, you know, whatever the little Martian, you know, creatures or whatever, the genderless creatures. I, I don't know. It was, it was a, it was a great opportunity and really one of those things where you're like, okay you know, just, just go. Don't be afraid. Give it a try. You're gonna get it or you're not gonna get it.Michael Jamin (49:40):Yeah. Yeah. How interesting that you're Yeah. So much fun. Yeah. Wow, Maggie, thank you. This is a lovely talk. Well, I wanna make sure, I wanna plug everything you're doing. I, we talked about it, but we can, let's remind everybody, let'sMaggie Wheeler (49:52):See. See I, what's going on? I'm heading to New York in January to do a live event for, at the friends experience at the end of January. And I'm not gonna say too much about that, but I am doing that for for a day on the, I think the 24th of January. ButMichael Jamin (50:07):How could they find excited about that? How do they find it if they want to go see it? How do they find it?Maggie Wheeler (50:10):Oh, I think it's Apri. I think it's press. Oh, I think you can, I think it's press kind of thing. Friends. Friends. But I'm excited to, it's a Friends of Friends event, right. . I, I don't know, maybe it, it, I don't, I'm not sure. I can't say much about it cause I don't know everything yet, but I'm going to do that. I have two sort of indie projects that are, that are, are in the possible works in the next year, which is nice. So if those things come, doMichael Jamin (50:32):You wanna talk about that or No,Maggie Wheeler (50:33):I don't think I can talk about them yet. If, if those, if they come true. Okay, then, then, then we'll see. One of them I will say is working with a really wonderful young director from from France. Her name is Charlotte Gabriel. And she did an incredible short, which I highly recommend friends, fans go and find. It's called the One Who Never Saw Friends. It's, oh wow. I think you can find it now online. It's in French. And it's a brilliant and hilarious short about these people on the day of their wedding when the groom discovers that the bride has never seen the show and, and, and everything falls apart in this crazy and epic way. So I, I hope to be working with her this year and great. So that those things are kind of hovering. And I'm, I have a children's book that's gonna get finished this year that I'll be self-publishing. So yeah, if you guys follow me at goldenbridgechoir.com I'll send out big mailings through my mailing list when those things happen. What else is going on? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. It's all, it's all up in the air, Michael. That's the beauty of the creative life. That's, who's the hell knows what'sMichael Jamin (51:36):Next. That's what it's like being an artist. Yeah, that's right. Thank you so much. This is this is, I dunno, this is, I I, this is an honor having you here and I thank you so much for coming.Maggie Wheeler (51:45):I am so honored to hang out with you and talk to you. You know, I love you so much and Yeah. I've, you know, I, Michael is one of the people. I mean now I'm talking to the audiences if you're not here, . So you're one of the people who has given me work more than one time in this industry. Yeah. And I am tremendously grateful for those opportunities. Both of them were so much fun and they were such great opportunities for me. And I look back at them with incredible fondness and and I absolutely love the work that you're doing now and just seeing you on stage, reading your stories is so powerful and so emotional and so funny and brave. And I've said it all to you in private, but I'm saying it publicly. Yeah. thanks for having me.Michael Jamin (52:26):Thank you so much. Don't go anywhere cuz we wanna talk to you when we're doing this. All right, everyone, thank you so much for listening. Yeah. Again, you can follow me on social media @MichaelJaminWriter and what else? Oh yeah, free. Our, my free newsletter is at michaeljamin.com/watchlist. All right, everyone till the next episode. Thank you so much. And yeah, keep writing. Okay.Phil Hudson (52:48):This has been an episode of Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who nee

Danny Zuker is a TV Writer and Producer known for Modern Family, Just Shoot Me, Off Centre, and Grace Under Fire.Show NotesDanny Zuker on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0958521/Danny Zuker on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danny_ZukerDanny Zuker on Twitter: https://mobile.twitter.com/dannyzukerDanny Zuker on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dannyzuker/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutomated TranscriptsDanny Zuker (00:00):So like, the people interested on the podcast who are aspiring and whatnot. Yeah. I mean, it is, and you can attest to this, and everybody I know can attest to it. Is he getting punched in the face contest? I mean, and there's no shame in stopping. It's just how many times he can get punched in the face. Because you will continually, I mean, I recently been punched, you know, I did a pilot and it was like all the way and boom, punched in the face and it's like, it never stops hurting. And at some point you just decide not to get up. I'm just not there yet.Michael Jamin (00:26):You're listening to Screenwriters. Need to hear this with Michael Jamin.(00:34):Hey everybody, welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin. I got a special, very special guest today, Mr. Danny Zucker. You don't know who he is. You don't know who. I barely, we worked together on many for many years on a show called Just Shoot Me. But I want to, man, I want to, this guy is, you don't understand this guy in the industry. He's known as a joke machine. He is known as the guy who comes in and hits that home run joke that makes everyone just laugh out loud in every episode. And so, let me just talk about his credits and I'm gonna bring him in. He's got a ton of credits. So I guess we'll talk about this, but we, I guess he started out on the Arsenio Hall Show as a joke writer, evening Shade, which I didn't, I forgot about that cuz I was a PA on that show. But not when he was there. Roseanne, listen to his credits. Roseanne Grace Under Fire fired up. He probably, do you want, is it okay if I mention No, I guess I shouldn't mentionDanny Zuker (01:26):That one. No, you can totally mention all the terribleMichael Jamin (01:28):Ones. jhu Me. We were, we, we worked together. Jesse Off Center, which he created Coupling the Men's Room, another show he created Surviving Suburbia, the Unusuals modern Family, which you've just got off of. So he was there for many seasons. But then also God the Devil and Bob Norm watching Ellie Oliver Bean come to Papa Stacked. I mean, dudeDanny Zuker (01:54):Act I'm glad you finished on Stacked ByMichael Jamin (01:56):Though. Yeah, that was a, yeah, . But what a man, dude, you have some, you have some you in in this podcast right now, I would say you have the second best credits.Danny Zuker (02:07):Who have you had who've hadMichael Jamin (02:09):? No, I'm talking about me. Oh, no, your, your, your credits are fantastic, dude. I mean, aDanny Zuker (02:14):Lot.Michael Jamin (02:15):Oh,Danny Zuker (02:16):But great memoir in me when I want to get out of the business.Michael Jamin (02:19):Oh, but also you do, well, you, well, you can start writing it now, I suppose. . How dare you. How dare. But also can I even talk about this? Do you have a famous book about where you, you and Trump? You got into a this is before he was president, right?Danny Zuker (02:34):Yeah, it was, it was I think 2014 back when everybody hated Trump. Not just people who could readMichael Jamin (02:41):, but, and so you just started trolling him on TwitterDanny Zuker (02:44):Just randomly and just a little, like, just a small little tweet. It was like, and then he exploded and then we went onto a month long with hundreds of tweets back and forth. And if you go back and look at it, cause it went rebal when he got the nomination. But if you look at it, he didn't like I was just a beta test. There's nothing he said about anybody else, whether it's like whoever he wants to talk about that he didn't first try out on me to no effectMichael Jamin (03:08):Really.Danny Zuker (03:09):And always bugged me when the Democrats would say like well it's so hard to fight against. It's like, no, just read what I did. It's not that hard. I feel like anybody could dunk on him.Michael Jamin (03:18):I remembered thinking though you, that he picked the wrong fight. You don't pick a, a Battle of Witch with professional comedy writer. That's not what you want to do,Danny Zuker (03:25):. It's all I do. It's, yeah, it's like, it's like me getting into a Dunking contest with LeBron. It's not gonna work out. I have one skill period. I can't do anything other than this. It's all I was trained to do.Michael Jamin (03:36):And this was at Modern Family where you were a writer, and did you, did you wanna, did you bounce off any jokes off of anybody?Danny Zuker (03:42):No, in fact, I mean, I would, he started to go after Modern Family, like when he would, you know, and that became like something he would pick out at that point that when he started doing that, I went and I talked to the cast and the other writers and the cre co-creator Steve and Chris, and I said, Hey, like, you know, my show, I would just go forward, but it's your show, right? And they were like, no, get him. It's like, fine. And it was like, I have to say, like back then, you just have to remember like, he was a, he was such a safe target. Like I would have to scroll for scroll and scroll and scroll to find one tweet that supported him. Like one reply that supported him. And I'm sure it came from somebody in his office. What was weird and why I knew like, oh, shit's different is it went viral again in like 20 16, 20 17.(04:31):At which point I got a lot of like, you are an asshole. Y O U R. I got like, it was like, there was a lot of hate. Like people were on his side all of a sudden. It was like, what? Because it was Republicans, he was a joke. Right. You know? Right. and, and so it was like, whoa. It was really weird. And it was yeah, I mean it was, you know, I, I continued, I continued to be a voice, but, you know, I I, I had threats. I was hacked. I had a lot of stuff go down that was like sort of yeah, it was like, it, you know, it, it got a little bit scary. I mean, it's scarier for women who went up againstMichael Jamin (05:05):Him. But at, at some point though, did he just block you?Danny Zuker (05:08):Oh, within the middle of that. And then by the end, after months, he blocked me and I stayed blocked all through his presidency. .Michael Jamin (05:15):And then how did that become a book?Danny Zuker (05:17):Well, I was doing it like at the 20, what was it? The the midterms, the 2018 midterms. I was part of like a democratic affiliation. Like there was some fundraiser. And they had asked me if I wanted to do like a live reading of my Twitter war. And like, you know, Tim Simons from a VE was there and he said he had an un enviable job of being Trump. And we did it. And then another friend of mine who does a lot of this stuff says we should put that out as a book. And, and then we just, I just wound up doing it.Michael Jamin (05:47):That's fantastic.Danny Zuker (05:48):Yeah. I mean, it's just a little, it's a hundred pages. It's like, it could not be sort of, and and, and I comment on the little tweets as they go along and Yeah. So . But and then I gave it to ch Yeah. And then I gave it to charities like, you know, Uhhuh legal aid for people at the border and Planned Parent, like all the things he, ohMichael Jamin (06:04):Good. Oh, now tell me. So I don't, I remember, it's so funny cause we worked together 20 something yearsDanny Zuker (06:10):Ago. I know a lot,Michael Jamin (06:12):But I, you remember, just so my audience knows, you were the guy who all of us wanted to impress in the room to make laugh. You were the guy cuz it was your approval. Yeah, it was. Because if we could make Danny laugh then Paul Yeah. Because you were the home run hitter.Danny Zuker (06:29):But that, but that room had, I felt like that room had a lot of heavy hitters. It's very flattering to know that. I mean, I always thought, you know, I thought you and your partner Siever were like, it was just, everybody was good.Michael Jamin (06:40):We were, we were all baby writers. But it, I mean there were definitely, it was a really talented, I think that might have been one of the most talented rooms I've been in, to be honest.Danny Zuker (06:47):It was certainly one of the, it was one of those rooms where like, cuz Just Shoot Me was a show that really survived on jokes. Like, it was like, the way it was built, it was like, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't about like a lot of touchy-feely moments, you know, or we'd get to them occasionally. But it, what it was most successful at was like, you know, what are the s in that world? Yeah. And, and, and so, and we had a lot, you know, it was a lot of really good people. So,Michael Jamin (07:11):Man, and then, but you started, I forgot about this as a, as a joke writer on the Arsenio Hall Show.Danny Zuker (07:17):Yeah, it was weird. I mean, I got , I mean, I was quite young. I was like, I think like 24 or 25, and I managed to get like a like a pa job on that show. Cause I'd worked on as a pa on another show with a producer there. And anyway, I got there and, you know, we're doing run through things and it, you know, writers there had 13 week contracts. And in the first 13 weeks that show became an amazing hit. Like he was on the Coming Time magazine and he wound up purging a lot of the staff on a Friday. And I just went home. This, you know, I went home that night and now long ago, and on a typewriter looking at newspapers typed up a bunch of jokes and on Monday handed up, you know, my submission to some of the other writers there to put it in with the packet.(08:03):You know, they, because I knew they were looking and they knew I wanted to write. And on Monday, like he did one of my jokes. And then like on Tuesday he did two of my jokes. And on Thursday I had a good amount of jokes in. And on that Friday, the following Friday, he hired me. Wow. So it was like, but I, you know, I'd been doing jokes, you know, I don't, I wasn't, it's funny, I was like, we were doing a move in our house, like we were remodeling, something had to move out and we get, so go through all of these boxes and in one box I found, oh, my Arsenio jokes, like a big book of my Arsenio jokes. And I thought, this is a gold mine. I can sort of recycle some of these and put them in things. And I started reading through them and they were also shit. It was like, it was nothing salvageable , but I guess it worked for there.Michael Jamin (08:43):That's so, you know, cause I was a joke writer on the mic and Maddie's show for a little bit, and I had thisDanny Zuker (08:48):That's right.Michael Jamin (08:49):But I would go through my material. I, I have the same like a binder like gold. Right. And I looked at it recently, I was, was like, there's nothing in here. It's terrible. It'sDanny Zuker (08:57):Terrible. I would never hire this fucking guy.Michael Jamin (08:59):. But, but was it your goal, like in high school to be like a on to work, like late night or what? Or scripted?Danny Zuker (09:07):Yeah, it was. I mean, I really, you know, I wanted, I, I mean I, in high school I was doing some standup poorly, you know, cause I had nothing to say and, but I really did. I wanted to be on Letterman or snl. And and, you know, I got outta college and I did, like, I put together this reel that people seemed to like, and I got into Letterman it as like, you know, I talked to like Gerard Mulligan and a couple people there, and I mission and then, and I got my first rejection letter from them and the second one from snl. And and and I still have those. And they're, they, they, they're, because, you know, you go through that. I wound up getting a job with but glad up getting a job with Howard Stern, who was doing some box pilots.(09:44):He was gonna be the show that followed Joan Rivers Show. Right. And they never went, but it was, it was a couple months producing a week of shows, you know, practice shows. And well, a couple good things came outta that one. I've been friends with him for 30 something years as a result. Bob who was in my wedding, and right. But then, but then I also met a producer on that show who liked me, and he brought me out to, you know, he brought me out. He said, I have a a pa job out here if you want it. And, you know, so it all led from that. So,Michael Jamin (10:12):But you never decided to like resubmit to SNL orDanny Zuker (10:16):Letterman? I did. I mean, I was, you know, I was absolutely planning, but then I wound up getting an opportunity to be, you know, I, I got, I, I I wanted to. And then I came out here. It's funny because before I got the Arsenio Hall ugh, this is a really dark, like, horrible story. Before I got the Arsenio Hall show , I got I was like up for like, to be a baby writer. If you remember Pat Sack had a late night talk show mm-hmm. . Yeah. That was Pat s Show. And was a lot of my friends, a lot of good people were there. Like, you know, Fred Wolf who went on to write a lot of stuff for all those movies for David Spade and Chris Farley. But like, so I was submitting packages and the head writer there, this guy Monty, I don't mind trashing him on this.(10:52):He, he he put me through the ringer. Like I kept submitting like over the course of you know, weeks of submitting to him and with notes. And I was like, fine. I was like young and prolific. Anyway, I wind up going in and I get there and there's another guy, there's writer Rob Young, who went on to write Forleo for many, many years. And he and Mon said, here's the thing, you're both baby writers, so if you don't mind, I'll make you a baby writer team. You know, you'll means splitting a salary and all that and you have to be okay with it. And we're like, I was broke and had gotten no credit card. We were like, yeah, let's do it. My family was in town, my mom and my two sisters and and my stepdad and we're like all getting ready to go out and celebrate.(11:34):And as I'm getting out the door, the phone rings and it's Monty. And he said, you know what? We've re he gave me a key to the office, by the way. We've reconsidered. We're just gonna go with Rob. Oh my God. Like, after offering me the job. And I literally like my knees buckle and it was like the darkest meal ever. So I was really depressed for exactly 12 hours. And the next day Marla, this woman who went up to Bruce, the Arsenio Hall show called me and said, I can't offer you a writing job yet, but if you want, you can come in here and be like, like a, like a segment pa. And I was like, yes. And so that's all I wanted was the opportunity. So it was like literally I had disappointment for 12 hours andMichael Jamin (12:14):But still that is crippling that disappointment.Danny Zuker (12:16):It was crippling. I've never forgottenMichael Jamin (12:18):The Yeah. I feel it just the way you saidDanny Zuker (12:21):It, it was really cruel. I mean, it was like I described, I mean, to like the people interested on the podcast who are aspiring and whatnot. I mean, it is, and you can attest to this, and everybody I know can attest to, is he getting punched in the face contest? I mean, and there's no shame in stopping. It's just how many times he can get punched in the face. Because you will continually, I mean, I've recently been punched, you know, I did a pilot and it's like all the way going and boom, punched in the face and it's like, it never stops hurting. And at some point we just decide not to get up. I'm just not there yet, but, you know. Right. But butMichael Jamin (12:53):People don't, yeah. I think that's important to know. Like even us at our level, is none of it's a cake walk. Everything's, you know, a lot of rejection.Danny Zuker (13:03):It, it's true. And I'll never forget this cuz so there's a writer under studio Hall show. He's about like eight or nine years older than I was. And, and like we would pretty young staff and, but, and we were going like, all the way to Vegas, why did you ever come to Vegas with us? And he's like, you know, and he pulled me aside, he took me for a lunch. He goes, he said, you, you're good. You don't wanna stay here in late night the whole, your whole career. You should, like, I'm taking the time. A friend of mine is doing a pilot. I'm helping him with it, and I'm pu you know, and I think you should be thinking about like starting to speck out half hour. And I thought, okay, you know, he's very avan Well, that pilot he was working on was, and his friend was Larry David, who was working on the Seinfeld pilot. He was Larry Charles. Right. and, and, and, and, you know, so he, you know, it was a real inspirational thing that moved me forward. And years later when I'm first getting like my first like, you know, I'm a story editor on like evening shade or one of those things. And I remember running, talking to him and I said, it must be nice to not worry about the next thing. And he is like, oh, I worry every single day. AndMichael Jamin (14:01):This is who, who? Larry Charles said thisDanny Zuker (14:02):Larry. Charles, yeah. Mm-Hmm. . And I thought, like, I thought, is he just saying that to make me feel good? But then, you know, as I saw it, I saw like the people from friends leaving the hottest show on friends, like not, you know, scr you, it, it doesn't carry over. It's like you, you, you get in the door more. Right. But you're still subject to the same humiliations most of the time.Michael Jamin (14:24):Why did they tell you, why did he tell you you don't want to be in late night for the rest of your career?Danny Zuker (14:29):He thought that I want, he said, if you, he, he more said it this way. He said, do you want to be in late night? Do you have aspirations to do more? Because it can be a golden, you can, it can be like a golden handcuffs because what can happen is it becomes comfortable and you won't do anything else if you wanna do something else. And he thought, and he, and he said he thought I was good enough to, he thought I had the ability to go do something else. I, and and that was all it was. It wasn't like he was belittling it mm-hmm. , he just knew I had aspirations beyond it. And he said, while you are working on something good is a great time to be working on the next thing. Right. And I, I, I, I took, I I, I took him seriously. IMichael Jamin (15:06):Mean, but you had to learn a whole different thing. You had to learn how to write stories. That's aDanny Zuker (15:09):Whole different thing. You don't, and but didn't you find this for you? So you started as a joke writer. You don't know if you can do it consistently until you do it. And then you find out, oh, I can. Right. It's the same thing with half hour. It's like, I don't know if I can do this consistently until you find out you can.Michael Jamin (15:22):But I remember the first couple specs I wrote the first were terrible. Then I wrote a couple that were decent. And then after wrote that first decent one that got me an agent. I remember the, I got soundbite agent and then I remember thinking, I, I don't know if I can do this again. I think that's it. I think I got lucky.Danny Zuker (15:37):Oh dude, I'm utter, even to this day, I have to tell you, like I've, I, I'm utterly convinced that every job I have is the last job I'll ever have for my whole career. And that this is the script where I'll be found out.Michael Jamin (15:53):. Yeah. Yeah.Danny Zuker (15:55):Where the, where the big, where the, you know, it's it's imposter syndrome I think. But it, I don't know. I, I've never met somebody who turned into script and was so freaking proud of it to me or something like that. It's like, oh, this one's gonna kill where that was any good . You know? Right. Like, that kind of confidence doesn't means you haven't like, questionedMichael Jamin (16:11):It. And what were those early days like for you on those early shows like Roseanne and like, what was that like?Danny Zuker (16:17):I loved it. I mean, cuz I, I did discover I was good at it and they were like, it was competitive, which I liked mm-hmm. . And it was like, you know, I held my own. I was like, you know, I did a really good, I felt like I did a really good job on Evening Shane. And they recommended me to Right. Roseanne. And I was a good hire there. And I'm, you know, the Roseanne was one of these situations where like 30 something writers, cuz she would hire all these people. But there was one like, main room and, and, and, or like, like two, you know, of the main writers. And it was very egalitarian, you know, it wasn't just like, okay, you're co-executive producer, you're gonna be in that main room. Or the, it was egalitarian. And, you know, I had worked, you know, as a second job. I worked myself into the main room. Now keep in mind that also meant working on weekends, but it was still,Michael Jamin (17:00):What do you mean as a second job? What do you mean?Danny Zuker (17:03):Well, no, it wasn't a second job. It was like I said that you would, I, it meant that if I got into the main room, Uhhuh , I would, you know, I would work longer for the same about someone here. Oh, oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah.Michael Jamin (17:16):Yeah. Right. And and they were, yeah. Cause the hours were really tough on Roseanne. I rememberDanny Zuker (17:20):They were hard. No.Michael Jamin (17:21):Yeah. I remember getting, it's funny, I remember getting interviewed to be in the night pa on Roseanne. I was like, the night pa Yeah. You start around midnight. I'm like, oh, start at midnight. . That doesn't sound like a good job.Danny Zuker (17:35):Yeah. I remember, I think at one 30 in the morning, Rob hen at one point saying, guys, if we just let's focus, we can get out here earlyMichael Jamin (17:42):. But he wasn't. So what time, what were your hours? Like what time did you usually work until ?Danny Zuker (17:50):It depended, but like, you know, cause she would blow up the script several times and you had to deliver it. Yeah. And you know, sometimes we'd have to start from scratch. And so, you know, we saw more than, you know, I saw several sunrises. We called it working from Howard to Howard. Like, you'd come in listening to Howard's Stern and you go home listening to Howard's.Michael Jamin (18:04):Oh my God. And that's, and that's rough. I mean, I've been at a coupleDanny Zuker (18:08):Young though. It, it helped to be young.Michael Jamin (18:10):Right. I know. Imagine doing that now. You'd be, I don't know guys, it's getting, it's, it's right five-ish. It's getting dark . I go, nowDanny Zuker (18:18):I wanna eat my dinner at four 30 now. So it's like differentMichael Jamin (18:21):. So then all your other jobs afterwards. Just interesting to follow. How were they just mostly connections or your agents submitting you? How haveDanny Zuker (18:29):Almost all were con like, so what happened was, so yeah, so Evening Shade led to a connection because Victor Fresco was friends with Rob Yuen. Mm-Hmm. and then Tim Doyle who was coming in also. And, and, and so I got there from there. When I went to Grace Under Fire, it was Kevin Abbott. It was like a, a a splinter group. Us went on to that. From there Kevin wound up getting like a brillstein deal off of that. And then they were like, he, they were asking who else is good over there? And he recommended me. So then I got a Brillstein deal and did my first pilot. And when that didn't go, I was like on, I was somewhere like on vacation, you know, my wife. And, and I got a call from my agent that about like, Hey, they're looking to bring somebody on the show, just shoot me. And you know, you know, I read the script, which I liked. I, you know, I hadn't seen the first pilot and I was wrapping up and so I, I don't how many You were there from the beginningMichael Jamin (19:23):Right? From the pilot. Yeah.Danny Zuker (19:24):Yeah. So what was how many did you do that first season? Because I came in in, in at the le Yeah. So I came in on episode six of thatMichael Jamin (19:32):First season. You were there, you were there for the first episode. Final episode of Season of Season One. I don't rememberDanny Zuker (19:37):That. Yes, I was, yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Cause we were, yeah. Cause I, yeah. And so yeah. So it was yeah. So that, and that's how that led. And then from there, you know, that led to a lot of different things. And, and you know, you know, it is, you start to develop a name, so then you at least Right, you can at least get in the door, you know, a little bit. So,Michael Jamin (19:56):And then, but even now, okay, so how does it work for you now? What is it? I mean, even like, I know you just, you just had a pilot what it felt like. What was that process like?Danny Zuker (20:05):Well, it's, it's, you know, it's, hopefully it's gonna be alive again. But we, we gotten into some, some, a little good news, but, you know, I was talking about a couple pilots, but like, I, you know, I got, I having the same manager as I'm at Brillstein again as a management company. And over Covid, they were like, Hey, you know, you wanna sit down with Kevin Neon as this idea?Michael Jamin (20:25):Oh, right.Danny Zuker (20:26):Kevin and I wound up writing something that I really love. And hereMichael Jamin (20:29):We go. Let's give him, give him a shout out.Danny Zuker (20:32):Oh, you gotMichael Jamin (20:33):It. Yeah, because Kevin was a Kevin, Kevin's so sweet. He was the voice on, he was actually the voice on this animated show. He did. He's over there andDanny Zuker (20:41):Oh really? Which one?Michael Jamin (20:43):Glen Martin dds. So I work with Kevin. Oh,Danny Zuker (20:45):That's right. IMichael Jamin (20:46):Remember that. And he's, so, he's the sweetest guy. And so he'sDanny Zuker (20:51):Been, he's been a pleasure to be in my life. Yeah. So yeah, it's, it was a real blessing.Michael Jamin (20:56):Well, I was just gonna say, so when he put his book out, I was like, yeah, I gotta give, I gotta help promote his book. Cuz he's just the sweetest guy, youDanny Zuker (21:02):Know? Yeah, he is, he's the greatest. And, but, you know, there's a perfect example. So it's Kevin Neen who has always acclaim. I don't have no acclaim. And, and like we write a pilot That's great. And we still get fucked around with, you know, it's like, sort of what I was saying, you know, it's like there's no, it never endsMichael Jamin (21:18):. Yeah, no, it doesn't end. And so, yeah. So that, so just so people understand those work, so the, you've sold it to, well, your, your studio paid, youDanny Zuker (21:27):Don't just We the studio. Yeah. And it was like, developed for tbs. Okay. And and then the whole TBS structure went out the window mm-hmm. like in, in the midst of doing it. And, and we just got screwed. Now it came back to us and knock wood, we have something. But, you know, and then, you know, I'm just developing other things right now.Michael Jamin (21:46):Yeah. So you'll try to shop that. Right. And so,Danny Zuker (21:48):Yeah. Yeah. I mean this is the, this is the first year though when I, because I've been working on this animated show, housebroken mm-hmm. , it's their second season. It's on Fox. My first animated show I've everMichael Jamin (21:57):Oh, I know that. Oh, wait, wait, I know that one.Danny Zuker (22:00):It's with, yeah, it's with Gabby Al Gabby and Jen Friton did, and Ku it's like bunch of pets and group therapy. Right. Which is really a funny idea. Right. And it was super fun to do when it ended, like, in, in, I don't know, September, I mean, we're still doing post-production, but when it ended in September, I had a couple offers to staff or thinking like this. And I just, I said I, unless it was something I really wanted to do, this was the first time I decided not to do that. Not to run really in my whole career because I, I felt like I don't want to do that right now. I'm tired of racing and I wanted to, and I got to travel and I wanted to do certain things and work on what I wanted to work on. Right. It just sort of have faith in the process. Cause cause you know how it is, you miss a lot of life if you don't do that. SoMichael Jamin (22:45):Yeah, well it's, there's that, yeah. It's like that trade off. Do you go on staff or, or try to develop on your own and you're justDanny Zuker (22:51):Yeah. And I'll go, but I also, it's just a trade off of like, if I don't go on staff now and I wanna go on staff later, I'll find something. You know, it's like, I'm not gonna just not do it in there, you know? Right. So,Michael Jamin (23:03):Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michaeljamin.com/watchlist.(23:27):Right. So now you're just coming up with ideas or teaming up with other people.Danny Zuker (23:31):Yeah, I'm, I'm actually supervising a couple pilots that I like and I'm writing one, you know, developing one on my own. And then, and, and, you know, it's been super fun and, you know, I'll start submitting again when, you know, shows get picked up. But it was fun. I got to go around the worldMichael Jamin (23:45):Interest Oh, go around the world for for what? Oh, oh, because you're on yourself. You, youDanny Zuker (23:49):Just Yeah, my, yeah, yeah, yeah.Michael Jamin (23:51):Right. Interesting. And then, and so what was go, so your last, I guess your last big credit was Modern Family. So what was that a called, what was that like?Danny Zuker (24:00):Wow, I mean, what a credit. Oh, here's the thing. So I'm 44 when that show gets, you know, picked up and, you know mm-hmm. , especially like in comedy. Right. You know, you think like, I went prior, so it's kind of funny. So prior to modern Family, you know, a year before that happened, a full year, you know, we had a writer's strike. And right before that, Steve Leviton, who we know from Just Shoot me and, and Chris Le Lloyd were doing a show with Kelsey Grammar and Patricia Heaton called back to Back to You. Back to You. Yeah. Yeah. And and, and I didn't get hired for it, and I was like, really? I've done everything for, and it would've meant like I could've logged my deal and, and then the writer strike happened. It was the first time I went a year, like basically almost a year without working on anything.(24:49):Right. And so I started to spec out a couple, I specked out a pilot that was a little bit more dramatic and wound up getting hired on a drama that Noah Hawley was doing in New York called The Unusuals. And it was like, and it was really fun to do a drama and easier by a mile. Right. And so BEC but and it was like, I was the funny guy in this, like, people, other writers would come to me if they need because it had, shouldn't have had a rye aspect to it and this cop drama. And so I could punch up and I was able to write a drama a script. And it was great. And that show didn't get picked up. But then I had a couple offers on other dramas when Steve called me and said, Hey, Chris and I have done this pilot.(25:27):I think you should come in and take a look at it. You might be interested in it. Now in my head I'm thinking, I can't wait to watch this pilot and say, no, I don't wanna do it. Right. , it's like hired other stuff. But I got five minutes into the Modern Family Pilot. And honestly, to me, it's the best comedy pilot I'd ever seen. Yeah. Like, for just like, it, it felt so fully formed already. Yeah. Like, but that cast, and it just like, everything clicked in a way that was magical. And I was like, I gotta get hired on this show. And so people asking, you know, it was gonna be a hit or did you know this? We had, there was a lot of pressure that first season to do something as good as the pilot and to be in that world. And, but we could feel it. We, you could, you know, you could feel something building like you could feel, yeah, this is something special. And and yeah, it was an amazing ride and I'm sort of glad to have that happen to me in my forties. It was particularly after a year of sort of, oh, slightly slimmer picking. So I really appreciated it and I knew it won't, I, I knew this doesn't go on forever. Like I know that that's a very unusual Yeah. And rarefied thing to happen.Michael Jamin (26:35):It's kind of like the last big, big hit, youDanny Zuker (26:38):Know? It feels like it, I mean, it, it, it's especially a broadcast hit. It's like Yeah. It just like, like it, it went from the beginnings of like, screaming is a possibility to like, no one watches network television at the time it's on anymore.Michael Jamin (26:53):Right. What's interesting about, I, I always love like writing in that show is like you've literally watched those children grow up to be adults, you know, on theDanny Zuker (27:03):Air same age. So Luke, the kid who played Luke and the kid who played Manny and Alex for that matter, Uhhuh were all the same age as my twin girls. And my son was younger. So I, I, I used to joke that I, I got to watch the kids who make me money grow up with the kids who cost my moneyMichael Jamin (27:19):, but, and how odd is it to write new stories? Like, it just seems like it's, you know, it's almost odd that because they're older now and you get, you're writing stories for them being older, you know?Danny Zuker (27:29):Yeah. But it's like you, that is actually, oh, for me, I did not mind that because I felt like in those first couple seasons it was very, you know, we in all purged our lives for like stories. Right. And so I was just waiting for my kids to grow up and do something more interesting.Michael Jamin (27:48):Right,Danny Zuker (27:48):Right. You know, you know, and I think, and, and I think a lot of us were, and so I didn't mind that you were moving into those, those stories. I mean, it gets hard though. I mean, you know, we joked like, you know, everybody's like, oh, you know, it wasn't as good in season eight or whatever. It's like, well, let me put it this way. It's like the most interesting family, you know, most like the Obama's, let's say when they're at a dinner party, they have at most 15 to 20 stories they tell me. Yeah, yeah. That's it. Tho those are their go and they're the most interesting family, you know, like, we did 250 episodes, or each family had like, it's hard, you know, you, you, it's, it's, it's different. And we're not like animated, so they have to be somewhat ground. It's all you can do like meta episodes, like you can do like on The Simpsons or things like that. Although I wish we could have , butMichael Jamin (28:34):But I, and I always, cause I always talk about like how writer's mind their own life for stories. But you have a famous, you famously took a story from your life, I think, right? And you said in one of the, at least one of the episodes was the, it was the fire. It was the fire. I'm thinking of the firemen.Danny Zuker (28:47):Yeah. I didn't write it, but I, I told it in the room. I had had a okay. So yeah, it was like the, the, I live in Manhattan Beach and the the e EMT workers there are like famously good looking dudes. Like I Right. Some, I, it makes me question where I am on the sexuality spectrum.Michael Jamin (29:06):.Danny Zuker (29:07):Anyway, I wound up having an attack, which I thought was a kidney stone. It turned out to be gallbladder. It was like, but at two in the morning and I wake up and I feel like I'm being stabbed to death. Right. And my, my wife Annette. Annette, you gotta call nine one one. You gotta call 9 1 1. It's like, she was like, okay, it's gonna be fine. She calls 9 1 1 and then I'm on the floor and I don't see her, when I hear the, the firemen like knocking on the door like, Annette, Annette, where are you? And then she comes out of her closet and she's dolled up like she, cause it was the middle of the night she put on, she's looking you up for the fire bitch. And we just did that word for there.Michael Jamin (29:40):Right. So you go in to, and you tell the story the next day in the writer's room, and then it goes right in the script.Danny Zuker (29:45):It's amazing. And it's amazing cause you start to lose any shame. So like, one of the things like I'd worked, I had known Brad Walsh who was part partnered with Corgan and Walsh. Right. I'd known him for many, many years before this. Worked on a show with him, a couple shows with him and never, and, but we get into that first season of Modern Family and we're like looking for stories. And he is like, and I see him struggling and he is like, okay, fine. My sister and I were part of an ice dancing team. . Like, it's something he wouldn't tell us ever except we needed it.Michael Jamin (30:16):He, you needed stories, right? Oh, you give, yeah.Danny Zuker (30:19):Yeah.Michael Jamin (30:19):You'll give your mother. I mean, people don't realize, like you're, it's late at night, you're trying to come up a story and like you do, you'll swab someone's arm for a story. You know, like a good story is so hard to get.Danny Zuker (30:31):Now I've only like, like there's a time on like, it was actually just shoot me, I think it was. But like, we're looking for a story on some kind. And it was the only time I'm tell it here, but it was like that my wife at the time, she, she actually said I would rather you didn't do this cuz they, they want, they'll watch her. But it was, it was, it was this very simple story. It was like, like I used to fly my in-laws out here before they moved out here to come see the grandkids. I was like, you know, of course you're gonna come over there and say I'd fly and I do this back and forth. Happy to do it. I'm a generous guy. It likes been good. But then I found out like they'd get the ticket and then at the airport would pay for the upgrade to first class . And it like, sort of like, wait a minute, . And it shouldn't have bothered me, but it didMichael Jamin (31:13):Wait. But, but they were paying it out, the upgrade outta of pocket. They were paying for the upgrade.Danny Zuker (31:18):They were paying for the upgrade. But it was like, I guess you pay for the upgrade. You like what? Like,Michael Jamin (31:23):Oh, if they can pay for that, when they could pay for the ticket, you're saying? Yes, I got,Danny Zuker (31:25):Well not even, but but of course that's me. That was not like, and even as when I was pitching the story, I said, this is gonna be my problem not thereMichael Jamin (31:33):.Danny Zuker (31:34):But I said, so I, so I, I put the ki on, I, I stopped, but that's about the only time I have I all embarrassed people in our lives, you know?Michael Jamin (31:43):And, but, and so yeah, I mean, so, but, but basically there, so there are other stories in Modern Family you took from your, from your life as well, basically?Danny Zuker (31:49):Oh, tons. All of us did. Yeah. We, we, we, we, we had one like five twin daughters and at one point, like, so we had to go to a we had to go to a parent teacher conference when they were like in, I don't know, second grade. And my daughter, it's Lily and Charlie, my daughter Charlie, I mean Charlie, my daughter Charlie, you know, we're sitting there and it's and and then I say, Hey, so your dad and I, you know, tonight your dad and I are gonna need to split up. And and it's like, so do you, is there, do you have a preference? And it's like, and she just thought about it for a second. She goes, well I love dad, but I think you'll take better care of me. And she thought like we were, and she was so calm about us splitting up. Like she just like, yeah, I get like obviously that's . So she was like, it was just such a weird, and so we had Luke basically do that with Claire and and Phil.Michael Jamin (32:47):So yeah. Wow. That's so, yeah. You just got, it's like you're just gonna be conscious for your life. But go, but go ahead. WhatDanny Zuker (32:52):You were gonna say? No, we had a lot. I mean, Steve's kids walked in on him having sex in the pilot when Luke, they do the thing, we're gonna shoot you Luke. Right. That is the deal. If you shoot your sister, he has actual footage of him doing that to his son. .Michael Jamin (33:07):Yeah. That I remember thinking that this, I remember watching the pilot thinking this had to be from his life. And it doesn't sound right. . He shouldn't have done that.Danny Zuker (33:15):Yes, exactly. Yeah.Michael Jamin (33:17):Now, when you go about creating a pilot, other than the Kevin Neon thing, which is, you know, a little different cuz he has this like how do you go about, how do you start thinking about ideas?Danny Zuker (33:26):It's, it's a variety of ways. Like there's some that are just like, oh, this is an idea that's been sort of itching that, that I've been itching to do. I mean, and in the day, you know, I would think like, you know, but there's just an idea that I'll get in your head. The other way is somebody comes to you with an idea or a piece of casting. I have one right now that was kind of a, I'm not gonna talk about it here, but it was like, right. But it's, it's cause I'm, I'm, I'm down the road. But it, it was so wild idea that came to me with like, some good casting associated, but it was just one line and it's broad and silly. And I was like, how am I gonna make that work? Right. And they actually went away and on a trip and, and somebody just clicked how I would do it. And so I'm, you know, I've written up treatment and so hopefully that thing goes, but it's, sometimes it's an actor. Sometimes you read an article.Michael Jamin (34:13):Do you, are you, do you develop sometimes with actors? Cuz we never, we develop for comedians but never actors really.Danny Zuker (34:19):It depends. I have developed for an actor why They're usually a comic actor though. Yeah. You know? But yeah, that's, that's about it. Yeah. I have, I mean, I know where do you guys get your, what do you do with your ideas? I mean, and don't they mostly come from your heads? Are you talking about it or it's such a hard target to chase?Michael Jamin (34:37):Is this a hard part of it that we struggle with? Cuz you always hear this as like, why are you the only ones who can tell this story? And you're like, well I'm, we're not. You know, I mean, and, and the other thing is like, well I'm a writer, I can kind of make up stuff. Like, so they, but they always want to hear like, why is so you have to always, it always has to be personal, which is a little hard. It's like you run out of the personal things. And so yeah.Danny Zuker (35:02):It sound like an obvious, this is gonna sound like a question, and maybe this just speaks to me not being a good guy, but I, I know this, but don't you lieMichael Jamin (35:10):. But you, you, you exaggerate, you, you basically say, you know, you try to extrapolate, well this is, I this didn't happen to you, but something similar happened to me, you know,Danny Zuker (35:20):But I'll be like, okay, so this is based on a guy I went to school with.Michael Jamin (35:23):Right. But is that good enough? Because then they'll, but then they'll say, okay, but then go get the guy who you went to school with. Hey, get him in here. It's his story.Danny Zuker (35:32):. No, no. I mean, I, I no, what I will say, this is my real, real, you know, I'll, I don't know. I can, first of all, I do think when you're writing a show, no matter what you're putting yourself right in all of those characters, I think it's a silly request. I do try, even if it was like something science fiction or it was something like broad and big, I will always try to craft an origin story that is usually mostly true. But just like, you know, I had this experience, like how do I explain like I'm doing something with somebody right now, an animated show that I'm supervising that has a lot to do with mental health stuff. Right. And this girl cracked it. And it was like, so when I'm coming in I say like, I've tried to do mental health issues for a long time. Never found the key. I think she did. This is like, and, and so that's my, that's my part of the sales pitch in this. AndMichael Jamin (36:20):It's so interesting cuz we don't even supervise. It's not, it's not that I'm opposed to it, but there's not a lot of money to supervise something. And you wind up doing a lot of the work. So,Danny Zuker (36:33):Well, I'm very careful with what I pick in the supervision. Mm-Hmm. . And I'm also very careful what my, you know, rate will be. So I, for me it was like, oh, okay. I, but, but, but it's like, no, but it's like I'll take, I, I, you know, somewhere along the way it's gonna be a gamble, but I wanna be with somebody who I know is gonna, and I'm very explicit about that. I always say like, if I'm going to wind up co-writing this, we are going to be back here to renegotiate because my deal is very specifically not for scripts. And OhMichael Jamin (37:00):Really? Okay.Danny Zuker (37:01):Yeah. And I'm, and I'm pretty clear with that, with my management and stuff like that. Because if I'm gonna do that, then I'm gonna take a piece of it. I normally, I don't, I I don't want to, I wanna help them do it and then I'll run it if it goes right. But I, but I'm just, when I was younger, I had a couple people, I had one person in in particular who's sort of supervising me, who took over something and I feel like Crash landed it before I was ready. And, and I'm so careful not to do that. I'm just there. So I, I really do wanna make it that person show.Michael Jamin (37:33):But the problem is cuz and I, I haven't, we haven't done this, I haven't experienced, but my fear is you'll turn it in the studio will not be happy with it, with their work, with their draft. And then you will have to do all that work. You will have to do all that regretting.Danny Zuker (37:51):Well, I'll have to do some work. Uhhuh . But I'm, I'm picking people I think who's have a pretty good sense of, right. I, I'm betting on certain people. I'm not betting on like somebody who is just like a comic. I'm betting on somebody who is at least writing or has some workMichael Jamin (38:09):To. And so those people, they don't come to you out of the, I should be clear, they probably don't come to you out of the, off the street. They come to you through channels, through agents, managers, stuff like that. Yeah.Danny Zuker (38:17):Or through, or through like pods. They, somebody we're developing this or we, we love this pitch. And that's sort of what happened with this, this animated oneMichael Jamin (38:24):Doing so. Right, right. Interesting. Now have you done a lot of animation? That's something I I didn't know you got the all thatDanny Zuker (38:30):Just this housebroken show. That's the first night I've ever done.Michael Jamin (38:34):It's been very all on Zoom.Danny Zuker (38:36):All on Zoom practically. Yeah. Yeah. All on Zoom. But it was a real blast. Now I kind, I didn't mind it.Michael Jamin (38:43):Right. Well you had to be in your house, get to relax too.Danny Zuker (38:46):It was kind of fu It was. Yeah. I mean, and also just having something like, you know, it was, again, we went into the pandemic, nothing was going on during that. I was just sort of sitting home riding pilots and, and doing stuff. And I was like, oh God, am I done again? Am I done? Then I got a call from mm-hmm. , you know, Gabby and Jen and that production company that if I was interested, I could come there. And it's like, I loved every, you know, I love those guys and it's all these a bunch of really great people over there. It's like basically the whole cast of Veep is isn't that thingMichael Jamin (39:14):? Oh yeah, I know. AndDanny Zuker (39:15):It's a, and and, and it was just like, it's just been a blast, so. Right.Michael Jamin (39:20):Wow. And so, and I also know, I, I noticed you've been, you've been performing a lot too.Danny Zuker (39:25):Yeah, I have. I started doing I started doing standup a little bit. I'm, I took a little break, but I've been going, yeah, I took like a 30 something years break from standup. But it's been fun. Cause like I have stuff to talk about and I don't care what happens. Cause I already have a career. Like there's no stakes in it at all.Michael Jamin (39:41):And you go, I mean, and so you go up, how often do you up?Danny Zuker (39:44):Well, when I was doing it more, I was going up a couple times a week and little clubs, little club shows. I was actually I shortly before the Pandemic was going through a divorce and but I was dating somebody who was a comic and so, and she did a lot of club shows and would put me on. And then we just recently broke up, so now I need another Ed doing club shows. What I wound going though, I wound up going to Edinburgh. A friend of mine who's a comic was doing a show at Edinburgh at French Fest. And I opened for him, like, for four shows. And it was really a blast.Michael Jamin (40:12):It's so interesting. We're talking about doing that. What, what was your experience there? I I would definitely talkDanny Zuker (40:17):About that. Loved it. Yeah. We have to talk. I'm actually thinking about putting something up there myself.Michael Jamin (40:22):Oh. And they gotta talk now. We definitelyDanny Zuker (40:23):Have to talk. Yeah. Yeah. We'll talk afterwards.Michael Jamin (40:26):Wow. Now I wanna, I wanna stop this conversation talk, but, and so, but do you wanna do more? It's so interesting. Like, do you wanna do more performing? BecauseDanny Zuker (40:36):I always like, I love to perform. I don't need to do it as a career. What I find is I just like the process of it. Right. I like the way it makes, like, I had this epiphany when I started getting up on stage, like right before the pandemic, a friend of mine was doing the DC improv and at this point I had like, and was gonna needed a, like a, a feature. And so I was like, she's like, do you have 15, 20 minutes? And at the time, I had five. And she's like, and I had a week to go. It's like, well, I'll figure it out. So I, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, you know, just on all the way over, I get it. And I got there and I'd written some stuff and like, there was a joke I had in the act that I thought was, it's gold.(41:16):Like I, I just know the stroke is gonna work as an open. Yeah. And the first night it didn't really work that well. And I, I came back, my first night was a little rocky, but my fir there were two shows a night, two, I mean, so the first show first night was a little rocky, not terrible. It was not like I bombed it, not terrible. So, and but from second show, I started to figure stuff out and it got, got good, except that joke didn't work again. And I was like, well, I don't know, keep going. It'll work tomorrow. Third try still doesn't work. And with that and so forth, Joe, I abandoned it. But what it, what was interesting about it for me was this, I'll write a joke for a script and a table read and it won't go well. And I will be convinced. I don't, I didn't go out to table read, but it's a good joke, right. And it'll work and I'll fight for it. And sometimes it'll get on. And now I'm thinking it should be a very obvious realization to anybody who's not a complete narcissist. But to me it's like maybe, I don't know,Michael Jamin (42:11):. But the thing is, Danny, if I was, if I had to, but if I had to bet, if I had to say who could, what comedy writer do I know could go and put together a standup act in an evening li or you know, in a couple of hours who could write a fricking five or 10 minutes in a couple of hours and kill it would be you. Because it's just, it's just easy. If, you know, if one thing bomb, whatever you can, you'll pitch on it. You get the one that works.Danny Zuker (42:36):I, I, I feel like that's the case for me. And I also think like, you know, you know this, there's like the two kinds of comedy writers. There's the extroverted ones, and then there's the ones who are just like quiet, but like, you know, good on the page and like, you know, really, and, and you know, will pitch. They're assassins when they pitch, but they're not, like, they don't have that perfor, they're not frustrated performers. Right. And and I just, I just really enjoy it. I mean like, and again, I enjoy it wherever it is. Like I enjoy it in a club with 10 people or in a theater with like 200. It's like, for me it's like been, it's been really kind of, it's just about the process. Like I am no goal to, like, I, I'm not looking to get a Netflix hour. Like I don't, none, none of that appeal. None of that happens. I just like doing it. I find that the process of it works a different part of my brain and like my, you know, I, you know, like I said, like in like in the course of a couple years, my marriage ended, my job of 11 years ended and then the world ended and it was like, yeah. So I was like, grasp, you know, so it was like, it was a lifeline.Michael Jamin (43:37):Were you, did that, I mean, did that panic you at all? Did all that, that's a lot to hit at one timeDanny Zuker (43:43):By the ti? Well, no, because by the time the world ended, my, my marriage like was, that was going through nine months and I'd survived the worst of it in Annette and Ireland we're super close. We're like, we're best friends. It's like the best. And then the show ended did, which was a little bit trauma, you know, traumatic and it was going on. But having survived the uncertainty of a show ending and a marriage ending, by the time, like everything shut down, I felt like, I was like, oh, I've been living in chaos for a while. Come on in, I'll show you. You know, it's like, lemme show you around,Michael Jamin (44:11):Let me show you. And that was, and that's kind of what your act is now? I mean, or no,Danny Zuker (44:15):No, no. My, my most of my act. I mean, it depends. I mean, I do a lot of my act about like oh my God, how far have I fallen? Or I talk about, I talk, I talk a lot about, like, I talk about like when a joke doesn't work or something like that. It's like, oh, they, you know, thing doesn't work. The, the Academy of Television Motion pictures and scientists really liked it though. And like, I'll talk about like my, I, I'll, I'll, I'll be falsely humble about that. Right. And also it's, it's been interesting to, to discover, you know, when I go out to a lot of these club shows, I am considerably older than a lot of the comics who are there. But like in my head, it doesn't feel that way to me. But I can tell that that's how I perceive. And that's also been interesting to talk about just being older.Michael Jamin (44:58):Do you think, cuz so many of these comments wanna get into actually sitcom writing, and do you think they look at you and like you're the guy? Oh, there's,Danny Zuker (45:06):There are some who look to me who there you can, but you know, this can't you tell when someone's talking to you and wants an opportunity? Or is just like being cool? I I, I, I can usually tell.Michael Jamin (45:18):Well, but no, but I wonder if, I wonder if, not that they're like sucking up to you, but if they're just in awe of you because of everything you've written. You know,Danny Zuker (45:25):I think they're, I think there are some people, yeah. I mean, I'm sure that they would be impressed with that aspect of it. Uhhuh . I, I, I'm pretty good at putting people at ease though. Cause that makes me uncomfortable. If people start doing that. I mean, I know it's all coming from a good place. I just, right. I, I don't, I don't like it's too much pressure to be vaunted. It's like I will like, cause all I can think of when someone's looking up to me, it's like, I'm gonna so let you down. It's like you have no idea how disappointed you be, reallyMichael Jamin (45:53):See it. It's interesting cuz that whole reinventing, okay, so even in the comedy room, even, I remember, like you were, there were times you'd be on stage in the con there were 10 of us in the writer's room and you're on stage. And so it seems like you are a perfor. You really are a performer, but this is you, this is like a big deal. Reinventing yourself, especially at this age. It's kind of, it's very intimidating, I think, or no for not for you.Danny Zuker (46:16):No, no. I love it. It's, it's, I I am so much more afraid of stagnation and things like that. Uhhuh . And it's, you know, and it, it's, it's interesting because, you know, especially as you get older and in comedy writing, you know, my full career, they were like, you hear like a certain subset of writers as they got into forties talking about ageism, which I'm not saying doesn't exist. Of course it exists. Mm-Hmm. . But what's interesting is some of the voices that were complaining and the loudest about ageism I would see on the show. And then we'd be pitching some, they'd be pitching something and then somebody like younger might say, yeah, that feels like a little famil, you know, familiar. It'd say, Hey, it worked on this, you know, and then they would disregard. It's like, this is what worked on, you know, growing pains.(46:57):It's gonna work here. Right. And I, I really clocked that. And so for me, part of doing standup and hearing, like I say very, like, I'm interested in comedy as an exploration date. And I think writers don't understand that. It's like a lot of people, comedy people don't understand it. It's like, yes, this was really funny and you could be upset that you can't say this word or this word anymore, but you rolled your eyes at the generation that came before you too. Right. Like, remember that. And you have to like, it is constantly changing. You must, the big experiences I've had is like, I can't wait to show my kids when they would get older when starting to get older. This is classic comedy. And to watch when you watch it again for the, there's certain things that hold up, but a lot of it doesn't hold up that well.Michael Jamin (47:41):Yeah. Right. If someone said like, okay, they wanna put you on tour and you tore the whatever, like a, like a, like a road comic, would you do it?Danny Zuker (47:50):I mean, if I, I might, I mean now in the, it's different. I, if you asked me this before, the age of Zoom, Uhhuh , I'd probably say no. Now if I, if I got to that point where, you know, I would wanna be good enough, like I have many opportunities to cut the line given to like, you know, my status. I know people who, like, if I wanted to, I could suck up to somebody in a much bigger club and say, Hey, gimme a couple spots here in a way that younger comics wouldn't. Right. But I, I, I desperately don't want to do that because I wanna be good enough to get that spot, you know, I'll work it out there and when I get there, you know, so, yeah. I don't know. I have a weird ethos about the whole thing. It's probably just the way of me procrastinating doing more, butMichael Jamin (48:34):, that's interest. It's so interesting. I, anyway, I I know you, we actually, you do have a, you have a little of a time limit, but I wanna, and I wanna talk more off camera, but I want to, is there, yeah. Is there, is there anything I can pro plug or send people send if they wanna know more about what you're doing?Danny Zuker (48:51):Yes. I'm on all social media @DannyZucker, Z U K E R and, and yeah. What else? I got nothing to promote right now. I, I don't know, I don't have any dates till after the new year, so I don't know what those are gonna be. We're able to performing, but but yeah, that's it.Michael Jamin (49:07):But follow there to know when your next pilot gets picked up or whatever. , when your next show. Yeah.Danny Zuker (49:12):Thank you for saying when,Michael Jamin (49:13):When, when. All right everyone, thank you so much, Danny. I can't thank you so much. I'm so happy that you did this. This is oh,Danny Zuker (49:20):I'm so fun. Respond to you, man. You've always, you've, and also you've always been one of my favorites, so dude, like I a handful full of people in there that IMichael Jamin (49:27):Dude, you're kind. So that's it everyone. Thank you so much. Yeah, continue. What am I gonna say at the end of the podcast? Well, if you wanna get on a free newsletter, go sign it for that. I send it out once a week at michaeljamin.com/watchlist. And and that's it. Continue following you know, on Instagram and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. Okay. Thank you so much, Danny. Thank you again. AllDanny Zuker (49:48):Right, you're welcome.Phil Hudson (49:51):This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep riding.

Bryan Behar is a writer/producer known for Wilfred, Glenn Martin D.D.S., and Las Man Standing. Join Michael Jamin and Bryan Behar in this deep conversation, perfect for emerging writers or aspiring TV Writers.Show NotesBryan Behar on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0066864/Bryan Behar on Twitter: https://twitter.com/bryanbeharBryan Behar on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bryan_behar/Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsMichael Jamin:Someone said, well, you know, when are they gonna, are they gonna bring back multi-camera sick? They should bring 'em back.Bryan Behar:They exist Uhhuh. But they exist either for the very old or the very young. But there's been an entire generation that has been raised without them.Michael Jamin:Right? AndBryan Behar:Which infuriates me because as a historian of the, of the genre, I look back as recently as a couple years ago, and in the previous, I think 60 years of sitcoms, the number one sitcom on the air, uh, in terms of total viewers had been a multicam in 59 of the six first 60 years.Michael Jamin:You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jam.Hey everybody, welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jam. I got a special guest today. But you know, the way, um, the Letterman show always opens with, you know, my next guest needs no introduction. Well, my next guest needs an introduction, but he's like, . But, but you know what? All writers need introductions. No one's ever heard of any of us. But I'm here with Brian Behar and he is, dude, this guy's got a, he's a sitcom writer with a list of a laundry list of shows that he's worked on. I'm Brian. I'm gonna run through those cuz I'm sure you've forgotten half the credits. That's how many credits you have. AllBryan Behar:Right. I, I could name three, so please.Michael Jamin:, we started his, his career with the illustrious teen Angel, and then we slowly move up to working. I remember that show. I'd forgotten you were on work. You had some,Bryan Behar:I started with Ned and Stacy, but that may not have appeared on the, on your laundry list.Michael Jamin:Uh, my researchers who basically just download imdb did not tell me that. But we're gonna go on the IMDB order. , okay. That's accurate. Uh, then dag, remember that show with Andy and Eileen Baby Bob, you remember that show Baby Bob?Bryan Behar:The biggest hit I've ever been on ,Michael Jamin:Then a usaBryan Behar:And I still quit because I, as I told the Showrun my self-esteem can't handle running into anyone I went to high school with telling them I'm on Baby Bob. Sorry, Saltzman.Michael Jamin:Sorry. The, then a usa and then Andy Richter controls the universe. Guys, hang on. This guy's got so many credits then I'm with her. Although we're not sure if it's I'm with her or I'm with her.Bryan Behar:Brent Must Berger said I'm with her. So it was, I'm with herMichael Jamin:, I'm with her. I'm coughing. Then eight simple rules. How many of the rules did you ever get to before they canceled the show, by the way?Bryan Behar:Uh, we were on the fourth rule.Michael Jamin:Fourth rule. I was on, by the way, rules of engagement. So, oh.Bryan Behar:And I've done three shows with the working of the titleMichael Jamin:. Then, then the New Adventures of Old Christine. The, the old conventions of new Christine would've been better, but apparently that's okay. Then The Jake Effect.Bryan Behar:Yes.Michael Jamin:Weak shots. I don't even know what that is, to be honest.Bryan Behar:Oh, that was an, that was a highly touted one hour.Michael Jamin:Oh, so you can talk about some drama experience.Bryan Behar:I can talk about anything.Michael Jamin:It doesn't mean, doesn't mean what you're talking about, but you can talk aboutBryan Behar:Any Yeah, no, you're not gonna be able to stop meMichael Jamin: then. Big. Okay. Big shots then. True. Jackson vp, which was on NickelodeonBryan Behar:One episode. I, I wrote a, I wrote a story. Let's not get carried away.Michael Jamin:All right. Let's not give you too much credit then. Wil, which we worked on together.Bryan Behar:Yes.Michael Jamin:Talking Dog Show.Bryan Behar:Oh, that's where's our other Talking dog show? That that should have been a, uh, oh,Michael Jamin:Getting there. Glen Martin dds. No one knows what that is, but that's when we first worked together.Bryan Behar:But if you love, uh, Canadian cable Claymation shows you might like GlenMichael Jamin:. You might like it. Uh, last Man StandingBryan Behar:Like animation with a laugh track that isn't jaber. You're gonna love Glen. You're,Michael Jamin:That's how they promoted it. Then, uh, last Man Standing, which you were not one of the last men standing on that show.Bryan Behar:No, I was the first to go. ButMichael Jamin:. Well, Jack, no, Jack was the first to go.Bryan Behar:That's true. GreaterMichael Jamin:Was the first to go.Bryan Behar:Then he came back and then he went again, and then he came back. So, yes,Michael Jamin:I didn't realize he came back. Sorry. Then saved me. I don't know what that is. Do you know what that is?Bryan Behar:Give me a moment.Michael Jamin:Was that just a letter that you wrote to your agentBryan Behar:? Um, I did, I did write that letter from the writer's room of Save Me . Um, that was a show about Ann Hay, uh, think she Can Speak to God. And that was the least crazy part of the show.Michael Jamin:Oh, I did not know that. We'll talk about that.Bryan Behar:Yes, please.Michael Jamin:Uh, then we'll talk about Kirsty, which we worked again on You guys brought, I mean, me and my partner in on to do a freelance of that. And I had the great Cogan on the show a couple weeks ago.Bryan Behar:Oh my goodness. Well, you, you've got to everyone before me. Oh,Michael Jamin:I I, yeah. This is the bottom of the barrel week. IBryan Behar:Know, I saw on the list. I was like,Michael Jamin:. Really?Bryan Behar:So go ahead.Michael Jamin:Uh, I also have here Jennifer FallsBryan Behar:And does not get back up. Yes. All yes, I've heard them all. Uh,Michael Jamin:Ratings falls then Ned and Stacy we have on here. I don't know why it's, it's out of order here, but yes, that was 1997 N and Stacy there. And then finally, uh, you were the, you were the showrunner of Fuller House, the, the full House Free make.Bryan Behar:That is correct. I was,Michael Jamin:Now you,Bryan Behar:Is the first time you're hearingMichael Jamin:This. I had no idea. , you've, now you're fond to say that I think you've, like, you've worked on 20, it's 26 shows. Is that what it is?Bryan Behar:21 shows in 26 seasons,Michael Jamin:21 shows. And think about, so this is a career, guys. YouBryan Behar:Are, this is a hard way to do it.Michael Jamin:It is the hard way.Bryan Behar:Apply for a new job twice a year.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And it's act I mean, to be honest, it was, um, it was more doable then than it is now. I mean, now it's really hard to do that.Bryan Behar:I have no idea what people do now. Yeah. Which is, which makes me a sort of, sort of a sham as a, a teacher of, of sitcoms as I'm trying to, um, encourage and promote people to take a, take the, the risk and, uh, and jump in. But, uh, I have no idea what a career trajectory, uh, looks like today. It was, it, it, it it was very, uh, understandable when we broke in. Yeah. Like, it, like there was a clearer path and you're like, oh, I can go from show to show and there's enough sitcoms and there's, you know, I can just, if I lose one job, I'll just walk to the next bungalow on CBS Bradford and knock on the door and hope somebody else lets us in. ButMichael Jamin:That's, that's what I say. I say maybe I wonder if you agree. I say that, um, I think it's easier to break in now, but it's harder to make a sustain a career. What do you think?Bryan Behar:Um, well, I'm, I'm certainly not gonna disagree with you on your own show. I mean, you, you ,Michael Jamin:Please, if you do, I just edit it out.Bryan Behar:You have your burgeoning media empire here and I looking to be part of it. Um, God, how many does it? Okay. Um, I think you're right. Um, and by that, i I, I don't know if it's harder to sustain a career. I see a lot more people not entirely willing to commit to putting a career together.Michael Jamin:What does thatBryan Behar:Mean? Which, I mean, there's been such, um, on social media and in the press, there's such a sort of hype surrounding the concept of like the celebrity showrun that, and, and sort of with the advent of streaming services, that there's this idea that anyone can get a show on the air at any time and immediately jump from like an unemployed, unemployable, aspiring writer to a show runner. Mm-hmm. without doing any of the work in between. Like, you know, I know I hate to sound old fashioned, but you and I, we definitely put in the time working up the rung, working up the ladder. So when we finally got that call to run a show, I, you know, we, we had the skill set presumably, you know, we had been learning, we'd been acquiring a certain set of skills. Um, and I don't know that that is really like, promoted as much,Michael Jamin:But are you seeing people with not, with not a lot of experience becoming share owners?Bryan Behar:No. Um, but I'm seeing, but I'm hearing a lot of that's the aspiration.Michael Jamin:Oh, oh, yes. That's for sure. I hear that a lot.Bryan Behar:You know, like, you know, because I know you talk to a lot of people, you know, who were, you know, aspiring TV writers. And I, you know, I was doing a lot of talks on, on Clubhouse, and a lot of ask me anything kind of talks on, on Twitter and, and the, the question always sort of circles back to how do I sell a pilot to Netflix? How do I get a show on the streamer? How do I become a show runner? And it's not like, oh, what samples do I need Yeah. To break in? What skills do I need to move up the ladder? You know, it's just a different mindset. Like, it never would've occurred to me. I didn't, I didn't even sell a pilot or even attempt a pilot until I had been on 12 networks at college.Michael Jamin:It's so fun, Brian. It's like, maybe we're just the old guys, but this is exactly what I say all the time. I mean, so I'm glad that I'm not the only one saying it, or thinking atBryan Behar:Least. No, there are, there are two old guys in the Yeah, we have become the guys from the puppets, butMichael Jamin:The cranky old guys Yeah. InBryan Behar:Waldorf and Staler.Michael Jamin:But, but you, so I wanna actually wanna mention this. I wanna jump around for a second. So yes, you are also teaching at Chapman University. You're teaching, uh, is it television writing? What are you, what's their course?Bryan Behar:Um, yeah. Um, I'm teaching, I, I just, I started last semester from, this was my first time. Um, and, and currently in this fall semester, I'm teaching two classes. One is a sitcom writing class, uh, for graduate students, uhhuh. And one is a pilot writing class for undergrads. And then I'm gonna do two, they've already asked me back, uh, for two sitcom classes, uh, in the spring semester.Michael Jamin:Wow, that'sBryan Behar:Great. Yeah. It seems to be what I do. Uh,Michael Jamin:So you're enjoying it then? I loveBryan Behar:It. I love it. And I, uh,Michael Jamin:You weren't sure if you were gonna enjoy it?Bryan Behar:No, I, it, it actually took a little bit of Mm, a little coaxing internally in the family. You know, my wife had a bit of a come to Jesus moment with me. You know how, I don't know if you've heard the old joke, but they say that in Hollywood, you're retired for seven years before you realize it. Well, I had been retired for three years, and my wife was certainly well aware, and I was, I was starting to get it. Um, and she really was, you know, she really sat me down and said, like, you know, is this what you wanna do the rest of your life? Just keep banging your head against the same wall? Or is there, is there a wall you can go around and find something that gives you joy? And this has been great. WhatMichael Jamin:Exactly do you like about it?Bryan Behar:Well, I like not being on a TV show, which apparently Hollywood, Hollywood and myself have the same, likeMichael Jamin:You do have the same goal for you.Bryan Behar:They both, my, my, uh, agent manager, Hollywood producers and teaching, I'll see it the same way. .Michael Jamin:Um,Bryan Behar:No, I, I, I love, I mean, it, it, it's something so special to be around people who just are filled with nothing but hope and nothing but confidence. And, you know, it's really, I mean, if I have to spend my days around people who are positive and, and still love, have a love for the art and a love for the craft, and would give anything to be in television or be, you know, be by myself or be around a lot of bitter people complaining about why they're not in, you know, I'll take the four hours of driving down to Orange County anytime. Uh, it, it's, it's been great. And I didn't, I had no idea if I would like it.Michael Jamin:Well, first of all, it's not really a four hour drive.Bryan Behar:It's, it's two hours each way.Michael Jamin:Right. Okay. Um,Bryan Behar:So yes, for clarity's sake. Okay. It's not a four hour drive each way, but it is.Michael Jamin:But, and I'm sure what surprises you, cause it does surprise me, is just, is how much you actually know about how to do this. Right.Bryan Behar:That's the other fun part. I mean, that's is, I mean, and I don't mean it in like a smug, self satisfactory kind of way that like, wow, I'm, I'm smart, I've learned things, but when you're, when you're actually seeing it through the perspective of, of new writers and, you know, and new students and, and you're imparting knowledge on them, and, and it's, and like you said, it's not even knowledge that you're aware you have. Right. It's, we've almost picked it up by osmosis. But I mean, you know, me and I think you're a lot, you're really kind of the same way where, you know, we were both students of, of television, students of the TV history, students of the craft, you know, more than a lot of people who we did it alongside. I mean, so I think it makes sense. The, the two of us have found virgins of, of offering guidance and coaching and Yeah. And, you know, and trying to impart expertise. But it, it is, it is really satisfying and gratifying to, to realize like, wow, I, I actually did learn something. I actually have a certain level of skill. And, you know, all those years were not for, not, yeah. I'm spelling not differently in those two cases, butMichael Jamin:K nBryan Behar:O t not for nothing. Yes. , I mean, I know you're from the tri-state area. I should, I should have said it more colloquial,Michael Jamin:But, um, and so, yeah. Good. So, and you're enjoying that and you, the class sizes are kind of small or what?Bryan Behar:Yeah, I had, uh, seven last semester. My grad student was, is nine, and then 15, uh, I got 15 in my, uh, pilot class, you know, but it's, it's way tougher than I expected. You know, like, I, like they turn in, you know, like pages of a script or an outline, uh, the day before we go into class. And I, and I'm so like, you know, of, of the neurotic sense of I need to give them their money's worth, you know, they're paying a lot for the, so I write up about three pages of notes per student, per class. Wow. So, pilot class, that's, I'm writing up 45 pages of notes between the hours of two and eight on a Thursday night just to make sure I have something to give themMichael Jamin:A lot of work, dude,Bryan Behar:You know, you know, on Friday. And it's like, wow, you know, I, I used to do half the amount of work for a lot more money, but it, you know, I don't know that I would do that again. AndMichael Jamin:Let me be clear.Bryan Behar:And that's okay. I've made, I really have made my peace, which, which is threatening to people. You know, I had, I had lunch with a writer we both know the, uh, last week. And he is like, you, you want back in? I was like, no, I really don't. He's like, you can't be at peace. I'm like, no, I'm at peace. He goes, what if I offered youMichael Jamin:Go?Bryan Behar:Yeah. And I was like, he goes, what if I offered you a job on a, on a, on a pilot? I was like, okay, well first you'd have to get it on the air and you're not going to offer it. I said, but yeah, sure. Let's say you offered me a job. I'm not gonna like turn it down out of hand. Um, but I don't think it's gonna happen. He goes, yeah, probably not. He goes, your old partner's, uh, wife works at the network. She never let me hire you anyway. I'm like, then why are we having this discussion? You, you better pay for lunch.Michael Jamin:Could you wait, can you say who it was?Bryan Behar:This was Marco from, uh,Michael Jamin:Oh, Marco, really? MarcoBryan Behar:From, uh, yeah, from our Kirsty,Michael Jamin:Yes. Marco from Hello Marco from Kirsty.Bryan Behar:Hello Marco from KirstyMichael Jamin:.Bryan Behar:One of, one of my dear friends. But, you know, but I think, you know, for a lot of people that you know this, and I'm not singling him out, you know, that being a writer on television becomes one's identity. And, and it was for me for a long, long time, you know, you know, 25, 26 years, uh, of doing it. But it, you know, at some point you just have to read the writing on the wall, if that's, if that's where your career is at. And, and that's where IMichael Jamin:Are you still doing any other writing outside? Just for your, for personal reasons?Bryan Behar:Yeah, I'm doing all kinds of writing, but none of which is with the intent ofMichael Jamin:Making aBryan Behar:TV show, selling a pilot or, or getting back in, you know, on staff. Yeah. And, and that's, you know, you know, we've talked about this off camera a lot over the last, you know, five, six years just finding our own voices and, and finding other avenues to, to write on, you know, on my own. And so I'm like, I'm still writing a, you know, you know, a lot of essays. Um, I, you know, I, I had written I think 40 essays for the Huffington Post, um, over the past five years, another 20, 25 for Medium. And, and then I've moved my stuff over, uh, to sub stack. Um, so I recently wrote a, an article about growing up in Encino that was shared 10,000 times. Um, and I performed it at a, um, wow. I performed it at a spoken word, and I,Michael Jamin:And that was all from Sub, it got shared 10,000 times.Bryan Behar:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Wait, what? We'll plug it.Bryan Behar:Apparently. I know a lot about the Valley,Michael Jamin:But, and you have a lot of thought. We'll plug it again at the end, but I wanna make sure, might as well mention it now as well. What's your sub name?Bryan Behar:Oh, find You. I assume it's, it, it has to be Brian Behar. That's with Brian with a Y. But I can, I can check. I'm sorry. This is, this is not gonna make great television watching an old Jew look, look up his SubT. But, uh, I just, um, I just got O brian behar.com, but I just got two Twitter notifications saying that even though this, uh, episode hasn't aired, it's already been referred to as two JulieMichael Jamin:, Elon Musk's ahead of time.Bryan Behar:. He's,Michael Jamin:He's, he's, he's making it better. Um,Bryan Behar:Yeah, I've lost 10,000 followers in the last week, and I don't think I've gotten that much less funny. I, but uh, I mean, there's, there's just a Twitter at Trisha. Yeah. So, as you, but in, in reference to your other question, yeah. I'm still still posting a ton on Twitter and on, on Facebook. I, I wrote a novella, um, which is just a novel that I didn't have enough words to legally call a novel. Uh, I've been writing my articles, doing spoken words, so really doing everything but the stuff that used to pay me. And, uh, but, and loving itMichael Jamin:And loving itBryan Behar:And loving it.Michael Jamin:And that's great. I wanna, so I wanna circle back to stuff that I wanna ask you, how you broke into the business. Although it's odd because I'm not sure how helpful it is for people since so much has changed, but we might as well talkBryan Behar:About it. Yeah. I mean, sitcoms used to be on Kiddo Scopes when we were breaking in , you know, was it the Dumont network that gave me myMichael Jamin:First job? , yes.Bryan Behar:I mean, my story is sort of, sort of interesting for people who like ancient history, , um, you know, cuz in many ways I was an overnight success. I wrote one spec script and was on the staff of n and Stacy two months later. Um, but this was an overnight success that, that was seven years in the making, right? Um, between the time I graduated from college, brown University. Um,Michael Jamin:Oh, for applause. Nothing.Bryan Behar:Oh, for applause. Hold for salute. Thank you. Thank you. Everyone still holding, still holding. No one seems to, no one seems to care as much as, as I do, um, between graduation and, and, and even knowing at the time of graduation that I desperately wanted to be a sitcom writer, it was seven years between then and actually getting my first job Right. Um, for the first few years. It, it just felt as though it was not like a conceivable path in my mind. It's, it felt like that was for like the funny people. That's what other people did. Um, but I knew I wanted to write mm-hmm. , and that was something I discovered at Brown. Like, I, I went to Brown thinking I was gonna be a lawyer, like all dutiful Jewish boys trying to buy their mother's affection through grades, . Um, that didn't work. So I decided I might as well do something I actually am good at and something that I like. Uh, and I started to realize that like, wow, people seem to be laughing when I'm writing stuff for the school paper. So I knew I wanted to write comedy, but, uh, a job in advertising actually felt more, uh, conceivable to me. And, and as such, I went on that path and I, and I worked as a copywriter for seven years. AndMichael Jamin:That was in New York, or out hereBryan Behar:On the west coast. Started in San Diego, then Los Angeles, and finished up in San Francisco.Michael Jamin:Okay.Bryan Behar:Um, and I was pretty good at it, and I was starting to actually get like a, a decent amount of success and traction, but all the while I could not shake the feeling that I really wanna write tv. I really wanna be a comedy writer. And if I don't try it soon, I'm gonna reach that point where I am too successful or too well paid at, at something I don't wanna do to ever take the chance. So, um, my old partner, uh, was a college friend Steve, and he said, Hey, I'm writing a specs script. And I was like, wait, you don't wanna be a TV writer? That's my dream. He's like, well, I'm doing it with another friend of ours. I said, well, tell her we're not doing it. And he and I wrote it over a facsimile machine while he was in LA and I was living in San Francisco. We were never even in the same room. Wow. AndMichael Jamin:And he was an executive at the time?Bryan Behar:He was an executive. He frequently wore suspenders by choice.Michael Jamin:I'm sorry. He was a TV executive, right? He was at, was he at a, where was he? Wonder Brother abc. WhereBryan Behar:Was he? He was at Universal. He was at Columbia. He was at spelling and he was at nbc. Yeah. So he was well into that career, but he also, he was, you know, he wa he'd been to enough tapings and be like, wow, these people aren't that smart. Like, right. Like, I can write, I can write mediocre multi-campus, it comes as well as the next guy . SoMichael Jamin:You guys teamed up, you wrote a spec and then what?Bryan Behar:And then we, we were on staff two months later. HowMichael Jamin:Did you get into, how did you get into someone's hands? What,Bryan Behar:Uh, well, he was dating the woman who became our agent. ThatMichael Jamin:Helps.Bryan Behar:And so, so there is thatMichael Jamin:,Bryan Behar:I mean, he had dated her earlier. They had met in the, uh, UTA mail room. Hi. SoMichael Jamin:That's right. She, she was my, our agent at one point too.Bryan Behar:Yeah. Um, but like I will say to our credit, like, she was like, you have to send it to me. But we were, we thought that it was almost not kosher and it sent it to some other people who were gonna sign us Uhhuh. Um, so it was a good, but here's the thing, it was a good spec. Um, and I see why we got hired, but we took a year to write it. Yeah.Because like, you know, we had unlimited time. There was no constraints of being on a show. And then we get to our first job and they say, oh, well we need our, your first script in a week. Right? Well, we had no, we had no system in place. We had never even been in the same city. Right. So we totally panicked, wrote it as quickly as possible, turned it in, and we're like, I think we did it. And we got called in by our boss, Michael Whitehorn is like, guys, you know, I have to say about this script. Like, it reads like a Marks Brothers movie. And I was like, well, thank you very much. I I appreciate. He's like, no, this is terrible. He goes, I love the March Brothers, but that's not how you write tv. He goes, there's no story, there's no setups.It's just bouncing from joke to joke. Mm-hmm. . And it literally read like it felt writing it like it was done out of panic. Yeah. And he, and he told us he was gonna have to fire us. And this was like, you know, I finally was living my dream after years and years. He did. You already. And, and within like a month it was, it was all gonna go away. And I had quit my career in San, in San Francisco in advertising. Moved down here. I had just gotten married, you know, I always like to say, other than death, divorce, and space travel, I took on all of life's great stressors in one month. But did And did you get fired from it? We did not. What happened? Here's some advice for you young folk. Yeah. Cause I know young folks like this podcast. Um, they might, they might to laugh .Um, he said, well, legally, I have to give you a second script. So you know how long ago it was when you had a two script guarantee? Yeah. He goes, so I might as well let you write it anyway cause I don't have to pay you. Right. So at that point, we, we had nothing to lose because we'd already suffered like all the indignity of being fired and everyone in the room knew it. So we kind of just slowed down and like pieced it together a lot more carefully and a lot more artfully. You know, we still, you know, we still had a ton of jokes, but it wasn't in this like, frantic style. And he, and he, to his credit, he said, this is so much better. I'm gonna, I'm taking it back. I'm gonna let you keep your job. And we ended up staying there for 24 episodes and we wrote four of them.Mm-hmm. , and we were, you know, sort of off to the races. But it, you know, so much attention is given to getting that first job. And so little attention is given to how do you keep it? Yep. How do you get the second one? How do you go from jobs two to jobs three and four? And that's like, that's the stuff that I'm trying to help people with both online and in my class, which is anyone can kind of break in with like, you know, and I've heard you talk on your, your ticks about one hit wonders. Like, that's not what people should be aspiring to. They shouldn't be aspiring to, well I, I, you know, I sold this one movie, or I sold this one pilot. But how do you get on a show? How do you, how do you keep, how do you stay in the boss's good graces mm-hmm. , how do you make friends on a staff as a staff writer, um, without being the annoying staff writer who feels compelled to fill the air with your voice mm-hmm. because you think that everyone's judging you and keeping score. And these are, you know, again, these are all super valuable, but, you know, lessons that are kind of lost arts in my mind. Um,Michael Jamin:I totally agree. It's also, you know, when I, the first script that I wrote, this is even Withouts before I met my partner, it was a good script. It got me signed by Bro Cro and Webner. But I thought I would never write. It wasn't my first script. It was the first script. I guess it was good, but I, I thought I would never do it. How could I do it again? I don't, I I got lucky. I didn't know how, I didn't know what a story was. I just got lucky, you know?Bryan Behar:Yeah. I hundred percent felt that and felt that for a long time. I mean, when I was writing like samples, and again, I, I, I sort of jumped ahead and didn't mention that I was trying to write samples for all seven of those years.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:And I tried it with three or four different partners. I tried it on my own. Interesting. Um, and my real issue was I couldn't finish. You know, like people always say like, what, you know, what's the, what's your biggest advice? I'm like, finish a script. Yeah. Because I would belly ache at coffee shop houses all over Le Brea. Like, why am I not on staff? Oh, do you have a sample? Well, I've never finished oneMichael Jamin:,Bryan Behar:You know, but like, how did people not know about me? I, I won't stop talking about it, but like, I think I, I, deep down I felt that if I were to finish a script and I don't get hired then like I no longer have a sustainable dream. Like as long as it was still out there, it was something that I could always like shoot for as a safety valve if I didn't like what I was doing in advertising or in life. But once you finish something, then it becomes tangible and people would read it. But if you don't do that, it it, there's no way for them to advance you. So, uh,Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's so interesting you say about keeping the job I did. I definitely talk about that as well. It's like, how do you keep your job? And so I've seen, I've seen so many, and you must see more than me, but young staff, writers just flame out flame. They get, it's a shame cuz you get this job, but you're not ready for it. And then you're done.Bryan Behar:You, I've seen so many people get the first job and never get the second job.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah.Bryan Behar:If you get the second job, there's a pretty good chance that you're inMichael Jamin:Uhhuh.Bryan Behar:Um, now again, that was in the mid nineties when NBC alone had 18 sitcoms on its fall schedule. Yeah. I don't mean 18 sitcoms on all the network, I mean, just on one of the networks. And it's not like the others, you know, were only doing, you know, biopics you, you know, this was an, an era where there was a clear path forward where you could, you could rise through the ranks. You could go from show to show you could take, you know, good credits and get a better job on another show. Mm-hmm. . Um, I mean we used to always, always, before we knew you guys, we used to resent the hell out of you. We're like, you know, cause we, you know, we'd been on like 10 shows while you guys were on Just Shoot Me in King of the Hill. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:And it's like, wow, that is a, that is an entirely other way of doing it. Which is we, we would look at you and like, so you're telling me you can get on a really good show, stay there, do a good job, stay there for a long time, then get on a better show. Yeah. And do that for a long time. And that was, you know, andMichael Jamin:A lot of that is luck. Like, you know, we got on a good show and it went four seasons and you got on a show that didn't get, you know, four seasons and then you have to, and so yeah. A lot of that is, you know, that's just luck really. You know,Bryan Behar:A lot of it is. Yes. I mean, and yet, you know, like now I've had some opportunities to sort of reflect back on my career and there are situations like old Christine for example, which ran for six years, but we just ran for the first 13 episodes. Right. Um, you know, if I knew better how to play the game, um, or you know, not to take defeat so much to heart. Um, you know, and a lot of that had to do with like, sort of grappling with depression and a lot of things mm-hmm. . Um, but like I, you know, if I knew now, if I knew then what I know now, I think there might have been a few opportunities along the way where I could have kept a job for longer. But, um, nothing I can do about that now.Michael Jamin:Not that it, not that really makes a difference, but Do you, do you see any change between the way young staff writers are today? Like when you were doing one of your last few shows and the work when you were first starting off, do you see a change in their attitudes or their readiness or anything?Bryan Behar:No. Um, I'm, I'm trying to think. You know, because I, I was very fortunate on Fuller House that I was able to promote a ton of younger writers from within the system, uh, and, and was able to give them their first staff writing jobs. Right. Um, and like that was a little different than how I had done it, which was, you know, in my case. And I think maybe, maybe in your case, but I, I don't wanna speak for you. Like, certainly in our case it was you write samples and you break in as a staff writer. And I see more and more that the only way in for a lot of people is to take other jobs on a show in the production working as a PA and then working up to a writing's assistant or start as a writing assistant then becoming the, you know, the, you know, the writing supervisor or, or you know, like that that sort of path, uh, of promotion from within seems to be a lot more common. I know that didn't answer your, that didn't answer your question specifically about the writers themselves. No. They, they seem just like young writers mm-hmm. who were, you know, who were appreciative of the shot. It seems like they've all been maybe out in the cold a lot longer than we were Yeah. Uh, before they get their first break. And I think there's less certainty about what comes after because there just aren't as many sitcoms in general and multi cams in specific.Michael Jamin:I did a post about this just a couple days ago about, cuz someone said, well, you know, when are they gonna, are they gonna bring back multi-camera sick? They should bring them back. And I was like, you know, at some point, maybe in 10 or 15 years, it might almost be impossible because whoBryan Behar:It might be Im now.Michael Jamin:Well, why do you thinkBryan Behar:So they, they exist Uhhuh, but they exist either for the very old or the very young mm-hmm. and there's been an entire, and I'm sorry I didn't mean to interrupt you, but there's been an entire generation that has been raised without them.Michael Jamin:Right.Bryan Behar:And which infuriates me because as a historian of the, of the genre, I look back as recently as a couple years ago, and in the previous, I think 60 years of sitcoms, the number one sitcom on the air, uh, in terms of total viewers had been a multicam in 59 of the six first 60 years.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:Um, and this even includes like, you know, what you might call like the heyday of the single camera era. And yes, there have been a few hits that have become sizable monsters like Modern Family and The Office, but the Office even more so, you know, once it became syndicated or once it went to Netflix. Um, but even during that, those shows having their heydays, the top rated sitcoms were still two and a Half Men and Big Bang Theory. You know, I mean, I am someone who strongly believes that, that the multi cam has always been more popular than the single cam. But, and maybe we've spoken about this before, but executives didn't think it was as cool to talk about it at their, you know, west side cocktail parties. And nobody wanted to be the one who developed, you know, a big embarrassing show with a laugh track. So they would just keep plowing ahead.Michael Jamin:But they always say they're looking for it because it costs less money.Bryan Behar:They always say it, but they never buy them. Yeah. And in fact, many times we would, Steve and I would sell a pilot to someone, um, as a single cam knowing that that's the only thing that those networks were putting on that year. And they say, no, no, no, we're really looking for multi cams. They would change our pilot to a Multicam and then pick it up and say, well, nobody's, there's nowhere, nowhere on the schedule where we can place us a multicam. Yeah. There's, wait a second. You made me do it. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Um, why do youBryan Behar:Think, I'm not gonna say it would've gotten on anyway, so, butMichael Jamin:Why do you think they couldn't make it today? Do you think it's just a scheduling thing? Cause I had a different feeling about it.Bryan Behar:I think it's a scheduling thing on the one hand. Um, and I've read some articles recently about the difficulty in scheduling multi cams alongside single cams. There was an article just like this week in fact. But beyond that, I think it's, it is almost just like, why isn't there rock and roll on Top 40 radio because there hasn't been in 15 years, so there's nobody alive in that age demo who would listen to it.Michael Jamin:You think so? You think it's a viewership thing? Cause I don't, that's not what I do. I think the problem is, is I think it, when we jumped on a set, you know, when we first were on sitcoms, like, especially in Multicam, there's so much to learn about how to produce a multi-camera show that we weren't, we weren't even thinking of like running one in 10 15. Like, it was like, I don't know how to do this. Even when I'm working on it, I'm like, I wouldn't be, you couldn't put me in charge of this. And then, but now, but you, but you come out of a school. So like we were on Just Shoot Me and that came out of was on Frazier. So we kind of grew outta the Frazier School, which grew outta the cheer school. So there's like this column of like writers before you that you learn from.Bryan Behar:Yeah. It's like coming out of like the Bill Belichick coaches tree. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right. VeryBryan Behar:Similar. You if you're, if you're a, you know, a co-executive producer on, on one on Levian show, then you can be the executive producer on when you get a deal on your next show. Like, very common to putThem,Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You could unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Now, like if you wanted to put a single, a multi-camera show on the air, where's the talent pool other than a bunch of old guys or people who've never done it before?Bryan Behar:Yeah. And, and, and like, you know, I sounded a little facetious earlier when I said it was the purview of the very old or the very young. But like, I mean that both in terms of the people who create it and the people who watch it, you know, it, it's either like pretty old fashioned, the last remnants of like CBS multi cams mm-hmm. or it's a Disney channel, Nickelodeon show. Right. Um, and what used to be like the mainstream of comedy doesn't exist that that really vast middle Yeah. Isn't there anymore in terms of, of multi cams, either in terms of like the space that's given on the schedule or in, in the age of the people who consume it. Yeah. Um, so I just think that people now think of it as old fashioned and kind of, there's a superficial, there's a fakeness to it.Yeah. An artificiality, not superficial, an artificiality to it. Cuz now that they've seen enough comedies that are written, you know, written and produced like little movies mm-hmm. , you know, I think it's part of this, it's part of the movie of TV that's happening in the more general sense mm-hmm. that, you know, when you look at the streaming services and, and I, and I think me teaching a class on pilot writing and like of the, of the 15 kids that are writing pilots, 14 are writing one hours mm-hmm. one is writing a single camp, but of the one hours most are done in like, in genres of, you know, it's superheroes, it's science fiction, it's it's space and it's zombies. Yeah. You know, like all of which wouldn't have been on television when we were breaking in. Yeah. It was multi cam comedies and procedural dramas and that was it. It was, and it was like you could wrap your hands around it. It doesn't mean that it was like a glorious time in terms of, you know, this great diversity of product, but like from the perspective of people trying to, you know, like rise up through the hierarchy, it was a lot more tangible and easier to comprehend. Yeah.Michael Jamin:I was even thinking of shows, like even the shows were like, gimme a break or, or small Wonder. Like, those shows were also very comfortable, you know, or Punky Brewster, like they were comfortable shows they don't exist anymore.Bryan Behar:It feels like you're setting me up. But I am, I have long been of as much as I try to write edgy stuff and like you and I were on Will, I mean, you know. Yeah. Like we both have, you know, the bonafides of, you know, to write cool single camera stuff. But I've also been of the belief that the calm and sitcom often stands just as much for comfort as it does for comedy. Yeah. And all those shows you described, um, there was a comforting, soothing value. Now some of it has to do with, we were young at the time, some of it has to do with our own nostalgia for an easier time. But I mean, that's why I got into sitcoms in the first place because, you know, my family life was pretty rough. I didn't have a ton of friends, but I loved the Brady Bunch. Yeah. Um, and I found that even like, at a very, very young age, like I found that world incredibly soothing.Michael Jamin:But that's not a good example. Cause that was a single camera show.Bryan Behar:I know. But it, it doesn't feel like a single camera show. Um, and you're right. But, uh, I mean, but whether, but it was still, it was still a family sitcom. Yeah. Um, and like for instance, like when I, like when we were first offered the chance to write on Fuller House, not to run it, but just, you know, to be a co-executive producer in the first season, I had no interest mm-hmm. and I was like, I never saw Full House. Um, but two, but two things sort of changed my mind. One was my daughter, who was like maybe like 13, 14 at the time, and she's like, you're gonna take this meeting and you're not gonna fuck it up. She's like, this is gonna be huge. Because she, you know, she knew the power of the original Full house as a kid who sort of grew up on the reruns and like whatever, she was homesick from school, we would tape her five episodes of the Brady Bunch and five episodes of, um, full House.It seemed easier than actually parenting or offering her medicine. Um, but that's neither hit nor the other. But the other thing was realizing like, okay, I don't know Full House, but I sure know the Brady Bunch. And that full house served the exact same function for kids who were 10 years younger than me as the Brady Bunch did in my life. And I'm like, oh, I know what that felt like to Yeah. I know what it felt like to be that age and, and want to be soothed by a TV show and wanna feel like you're part of a, you know, a surrogate family on the air. And, and that that really helped, helped me as a way inMichael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:So realize is that kind of showMichael Jamin:Yeah. It's an interesting, it really is an interesting time for writers. What are you, what are you, how are you advising your students to break in then? What are you telling them?Bryan Behar:Well, I try not to spend as much time on the how to break in mm-hmm. as to give them the tools that might open the door and might help them. And, and, and I, you know what, what I do, again, I'm, I'm, I'm sort of evading the question by design. Um, like for instance, I, I run my classes as if they were a writer's room. I push all the tables together. We sit around one big table with me at the front, like a big mock, just like the old days. Yeah. At one 20th. At one 20th. The salary. Right. Of, of, but like, I want them to get used to what it, you know, what it feels like to, you know, pitch amongst their peers what it feels like to, you know, offer an idea or a joke to somebody at the head of the table.So like, as far as teaching them the craft, I think I'm doing a pretty good job. I don't know that I have as much wisdom when it comes to how does one break in these days. Right. Um, I alluded to in a teeny bit earlier, which is one of the things I will say is do not turn down any job on a television show mm-hmm. , because that has become more and more the only way in is to rise through the ranks. It, it is entirely a function of who, you know, so many of the jobs come from the people doing, you know, the non-writing jobs that, you know, that lead into it.Michael Jamin:But you also have to be ready. It's not, it's not enough to know somebody. Your script has to, you have to know how to writeBryan Behar:Well. Yeah. I don't know that you're gonna get those writing assistant jobs or those pa jobs even without a script. So, I mean, you have to have a great script now just to get those jobs.Michael Jamin:Oh, okay. I wasn't aware ofBryan Behar:That. I think you do. I'veMichael Jamin:Never, I've never read any, I've never asked a pa or write assistant to read their, I'd rather not read their script.Bryan Behar:Yeah, no, I, I, I mean, I'm of the, I'm of the, I'm the same way. I just would rather assume that they, that they're funny. Right. Uh, you know, after the interview, but like you, I, again, since I wasn't running the show, um, when we started out, I don't know if they had spec scripts originally. Right. I inherited so many of them, you know, so, but you know, but what I tell them is like, you know, you're sitting there behind the keyboards. Like, nobody wants you to be the one pitching jokes all day long, but like, pick your battles. Like, you know, I've seen, I've seen writing assistants like win a job from pitching a, you know, lobbying a giant joke out of the corner of the room when no one's expecting it. Right. You know, and in some ways, like the pressure's off. No one is expecting you to save the day.Mm-hmm. . Um, and I always say like, if you really need to be funny, be funny at lunch, you know, like when you're just like, cuz then you were, if you're sitting around one table at lunch, you're all just people. There's not that same hierarchy. Right. People. And then a year from now when we say, oh, we need a staff writer, we were far more likely to say like, oh, so and so made me laugh, you know, you know, while I was eating my gato grill. Then, uh, you know, then have to read a stack of scripts. You know, you know, so like I say, like you can break it as a staff writer, the traditional way you can get hired, um, at, in another type of job. Like we've just been talking about within the production. And then there's all these writing programs that mm-hmm. Things still exist, even though Warner Brothers a few weeks ago said they were canceling the Warner program. They brought it back. They brought it back. Okay. Yeah. That's like, that is like the third way. And that, that's still a valid and beyond that, I don't really know how, I know people all wanna be discovered. Everyone, everyone wants to like write a pilot that gets bought by a streamer mm-hmm. and they wanna be a celebrity showrun. Right. And I don't know, I don't know that that exists, but it probably exists just enough that everyone thinks they can do it. Yeah. Like for instance, like I'm teaching at Chapman, which is a fabulous program. It like barely existed 20 years ago, and now it's like the fourth film school in the country according to the, you know, the most recent rankings. And like, their big claim to fame is the two brothers who created Stranger Things like in their twenties. Right. Like out of nowhere, I think they had one credit. And the next thing you know, they have a show that's the biggest show on all television in all mediums. Right. Streamer, cable pay, cable, anything. And I forgot broadcast that used to be a thing that we cared about. Um, but like, everyone's like, well, the Duffer Brothers did it. Why can't I create some, some genre of sci-fi? And it's like, you can possibly, but that's again, that's the exception. Yeah. What's gonna happen if you don't,Michael Jamin:I think that's exactly right. I think that's, that's the exception. It's, and it's such a remarkable exception that the media picks up on it and talks about it because it's what an unusual story. And then therefore people think, oh, that's how you do it. You know,Bryan Behar:And I guess that's, I mean, if we really were being fair, there's always been that media story of the V kid, you know mm-hmm. 20 years ago it was Josh Schwartz, he's, he's 11 years old and he created the oc Yeah. You know, there's always, you know, there's always someone who got, you know, I think James L. Brooks was one of them, you know? Right. Like, there's always somebody who in their twenties gets a show on the air and ruin it for everybody else. Mm-hmm. . But, but, but I mean, by ruin it by everybody else is it creates this illusion that all you need to do is sell a pilot, not learn how to write tv.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I, you know, I remember when we were first signed, or when I, yeah, I guess it was with Sheer signed and, um, our agent said, oh, oh, no, no. She said it to me before, before I was with Sheer. She said, you know, I signed one new baby writer a year. You're the baby writer. In three years you're gonna be running your own show. And, and I, and I, I, I smiled very play. Oh, that's great. And then after I hung up, I was seriously panicked. I was like, run my own show. I, I, I don't even know if I can write another script. Like that's the last thing I wanna do is run our own show.Bryan Behar:Of course. Now here's something I'm gonna admit to you that you're, you're gonna laugh at me. And, and, and That's okay. It would not be the first time. Like Steve, and, and, and I can't talk too much about it because it's part of ongoing litigation, some of the specifics of this. But Steve and I were offered the opportunity to run Fuller House, uh, beginning season four.Michael Jamin:Mm-hmm. .Bryan Behar:Um, so we had been doing this for I think 22 years. I was like 53 years old, 52 years old. And I said no, because of the thought of running a show, even with 22 years experience, even at 52 years old, seemed inconceivable to me. Yeah. Now, you know, I have a history of severe panic disorder and a lot of other things that, that contribute to that. And then they came back and offered it to us again. They're like, no, no, we, we thought about someone else, it's you. And we said no again, um, because no, now we're, we're in a kind of an extreme case, but part of it was a function of that ship had sailed in my mind mm-hmm. as far as like being a possibility. Like when you, when you're hitting your, your, you know, your your early to mid fifties and you've not run a show, I think in it's a, it's a, it is a fair assumption to say that the business doesn't see you that way.Mm-hmm. , like you're, you know, Steve and I were very competent number twos and very competent number threes mm-hmm. . Um, but the thought of actually like taking on the big chair still seemed like something that like engendered panic. Yeah. And, and then, you know what? We did it and I loved it and I, I loved doing it. I was eager to do it again. Um, you know, we did 30, 31 episodes, uh, under our helm and like started to take on responsibilities and facets that I'd never, ever even thought about. Right. It was great. So, and I, so even though I never got to do it another time or another time yet, I'm thrilled that I was able to get past that fear because it really was like the sort of the last fear that was out there for me.Michael Jamin:But the thing is, when people say that, when people say, I wanna run my own show, and I said, do you, you don't even know what a Showrun does. Like why would you, like, why, why are you signing up for a job? You don't even know what the job entails.Bryan Behar:Well, because they've seen Matt Wener give an interview at the end of Madman or Vince Gilligan, the end of Breaking Bad. And they know that like, you know, they know what their salaries are and they know their celebrities. Yeah. You know, and they get good, you know, they get good tables at Mr. Chap. I mean, I don't know, but like, I didn't know what his, there was no such thing as a celebrity Showrun when we were breaking in. Like there were, yes, there were successful people. You know, like I was very aware who created Seinfeld and friends and who created Cheers and what the back ends were. Right. But that thing where, and it really is kind of a function of premium tv, like sort of the Post Sopranos one hour world, you know, the Mad Men, Sopranos, breaking beds, the Shield, the Wire Deadwood, like those have really kind of deified the one hour show runner as like pop culture celebrities.Michael Jamin:Yeah.Bryan Behar:And they've, they've sort of become the new film directors. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Right.Bryan Behar:So everybody wants that.Michael Jamin:Right.Bryan Behar:And again, like if you see the Duffer Brothers do it, you know, at, at 28 years old or however, however young they were, um, people are, people rightly do ask Why not us? Mm-hmm. . But again, like I had been doing TV for 22 or 23 years before I took over that show and still had no conception of what running a show entailed. Yeah. In terms of just the sheer enormity of the pressure of the responsibility. And that was with two of us, and that was with two of us dividing the task. I had no idea how someone does that on their own. Yeah. Cause even with two people that felt like, like, like a, her her lay super human effort. Yep. You know, and I'm sure you found the same thing, like, um, there's so many different, you're making a decision all day long, every day at a furious pace. Yep. And yet there's nothing like it. Like it was such, it was, you know, and I don't mean like just from like a, the standpoint of like, I felt powerful, but like, there were like, having such a sense of purpose every day was fantastic. Uhhuh,You know, overcoming fears and like developing like a skill like that I didn't even know I needed to possess. Like, that was interesting. Yeah. You know, so I feel, I mean, it certainly helps me as a teacher because if I had never run a show, I'd feel like a little bit like a fraud offering notes and like fixing scripts and mm-hmm. having now having done it, like at, I'm not gonna say the highest levels, but a high level. Right. Um, you know, I feel like far more qualified to be the one teaching people. Cause I feel like I've done at least the equivalent of that in, in tv.Michael Jamin:Yeah. It, it's, it's interesting because even as I, before I started doing, like talking on social media, I was like, well, you know who, I'm not Vince Gilligan, I'm not Chuck Lori, I'm not Steve Levitan. I'm not, I'm not the highest there is, you know, um, what,Bryan Behar:Well, two things come to mind. Number one, don't sell yourself short because you're still super high within, you're still super high within the, you know, the pecking order. Like, once you take out those, those few brand names, right. You've done it. You've, you've run multiple shows. You've run multiple good shows and people liked working for you. And, uh, you know, like the, the job we did together on, on Glen Martin was a pleasure. And, uh, you know, that's probably the closest I ever felt to like really writing in my own voice Yeah. And kind of just letting go and not being self-conscious and just writing whatever felt silly or funny. Right. So that's one thing you've done. But the other thing where I think you have a leg up in fact, is what was the last time Chuck Laurie or Steve Leviton had to really think about what they were gonna do next and plot accordingly. You know, like both of them just go to CS and say, get me a get me, you know, get me a show on Hulu. And they do. Like, but that's not like how people in real, in real life behave.Michael Jamin:Yeah. I, that's one I talked about with my wife. She goes, well, yeah, but that, those are the superstars you can talk to. You can speak to what does it mean to be a working writer who's not a superstar? Who'sBryan Behar:That's, that's a hundred percent right. It's a little insulting that our wives know about people who are superstars and they, they tend to usually be taller, um, Who had a here, but like, um, I don't, I don't know that Steve Levitator or Chuck Laurie or you know, or Larry David is gonna speak as, you know, as succinctly or as I impactfully as you do about, you know, the like day to day mechanics of breaking in, building a career, keeping a job. And those are, you know, those are the things that I talk about day to day. And, and now I've moved on to the third, you know, the third thing, which is how do I build like a sort of a purposeful life outside of the writer's room, right. And, and try to use the skills that I developed or the knowledge that I accrued and either help others or, you know, game satisfaction for myself. And I'm, you know, trying really hard to still do both without, you know, the, you know, the old crutches that I used to have, which is, you know, getting laughs from a, from a gaggle of Jews,Michael Jamin:It's so,Bryan Behar:And JBMichael Jamin:N JB, we, um, you know, I, when people, they'll comment on social media, sometimes I'll, I'll make a post and then I guess people are, I dunno if they're being argumentative or just trying to impress me or whatever, but they'll say, yeah, but Quentin Tarantino says, and I'm like, Quentin Tarantino is anybody just, is anyone mistaking you for Quentin Tarantino ? Yeah. No, I mean, have his career,Bryan Behar:But I mean, but they're, they're, I mean, it's beyond annoying, but that's always been the case. I remember like my, one of my first or second jobs running into like, the wife of someone I went to college with, and she's like, why aren't you on Seinfeld or South Park? That's what we watch. Yeah. You don't watch the shows you're on. It's like, okay, first of all, like, you're a viewer. You didn't create either of those shows unless you're, unless you change your name to Matt Stone. Like you're not those people. So like, pipe down a little. I said, secondly, you have to think about this. Like, it's the nba, like, hey, like I'm coming out of college, I wanna be on the Lakers. Who gives a fuck what you want? You were drafted by the Pelicans. Like, like, we don't get to choose where we write.Yeah. Like, oh, Tarantino said like, okay, you're not Tarantino. Like, trust me, I'm doing better than you are. So like , you know, I mean, yes. But that, I mean, that's gone on forever and ever. I'll tell you a story. My grandmother re she rested me. She just, she passed away a year ago and she ended up being, she lived in 99 years and eight months and ended up dying as a very kind person for like the first 95 years. She wasn't Right. And like, she would admit that, and like, we had no relationship and like on, I, I had been on four jobs at the time. Um, and on all four she told me how much she didn't like the show. I was on . So she invited Beth and I out for dinner. I hope it wasn't Glen Martin . No, no, no, no, no. That would've been later that she didn't like, okay, what's, she's like, who watches Claymation ?Why is there a laugh track? Scooby . But she, so she invites Beth and I have to dinner with her and her, her boyfriend. Um, and she's like, oh, that show that Then Stacy, I hated that show. And I'm like, oh, well I'm on a different show now. Oh, I don't like that show either. Okay. And I literally said, grandma, like I, I'm happy to tell you that before I, right before I came to dinner today, I came, I'm coming directly from a meeting. I had just had a meeting on Frazier. Uhhuh. Now Frazier at the time had just won the me for Best comedy five years in a row. Right. Anything's gonna oppress her. And she goes, Ugh. She goes, I hate that show. That's a dumb show, . So I say to myself, okay, and I turn to Beth, like, she can see that I'm soothing, and Beth and I are Huling and I'm like, the woman doesn't know anything about television.She's an older, she's an older Jewish woman from a different era. She's not gonna like anything you do. She, she knows nothing about television. I was like, you're right. That's why would I get myself upset? She knows nothing. And then she says, why don't you write something like David Kelly mm-hmm. . And then the boyfriend says, it's David E. Kelly. And then I realized, no, she knew a tremendous amount about television shouldn't . Like she knew chapter in verse, everything that he had written from Allie McBeal to picket fences. She just didn't like what I was doing. Right. , I don't remember, I don't remember how we got to this, but Oh, annoying people telling us our credits aren't good enough. Right. It's like, yeah. Like, I remember, I remember when people were on Raymond for the, you know, all nine years, and I'd be like, these lucky SAPs, like had, they haven't had to go through anything that we've gone through.They got one job. They had a, they had to go to a few movie nights on a Sunday with Phil Rosenthal never eat dinner there. Yeah. And to get nine years of fat paychecks. And that's just not, that wasn't our experience, but our experience certainly prepared us for more kinds of experiences. And I, and it certainly behooved me, I believe when it, when it was time to run a show, you know, I definitely had far more of an awareness of what I wanted a room to feel like mm-hmm. , uh, what I wanted it not to feel like specifically. Yeah. Uh, you know, based on having had so many different kinds of experiences. And that's, that's like 0.2 that I alw

Greg Thompson is a writer-producer known for Bob's Burgers, Glenn Martin D.D.S., and King of The Hill.Greg Thompson on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0860188/Greg Thompson on Twitter: https://twitter.com/gregthompMichael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAutogenerated TranscriptionsGreg Thompson:Try to pay attention to the voices of the show. Know the show. Watch, watch every episode. Um, you know, when we were hired on King of the Hill, I, I'd watched King of the Hill, but I hadn't seen everything. But, you know, I methodically started plowing through hundreds of episodes at that point. I think maybe 200 episodes had happened by the time we, we joined it. So, and that's just kind of an education and you internalize the voices of the characters and, and it, it helps you. It helps you know what to pitch. You'reMichael Jamin:Listening to Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jen.Hey everyone. Welcome to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. I'm Michael Jamin and I got another special guest today. This is my old friend. I'm gonna, this is my friend Greg Thompson, and I'm gonna give you a proper introduction, Greg. So sit down, just relax. Let me just talk to the people for a second. Um, so Greg is a very successful TV writer and he started on bunk, a show called Bunk Bread Brothers. We're gonna run through some of, through some of the credits. I'm heard of Bunk Bread Brothers, then fired up, which was interesting. This was the heyday of nbc. This was when, uh, the character she lived instead of a clock. She was, she was a church mouse, wasn't she? GregGreg Thompson:. Yeah, she was a church MassMichael Jamin:WhoGreg Thompson:Is second, second season. She moved into a shoe, uh,Michael Jamin:.Greg Thompson:It was Sharon Lawrence with, uh, Leah Remedy.Michael Jamin:Ah, Sharon Lawrence with Leah Remedy. This was back in the heyday of NBC shows like, uh, musty tv. And then a show called, I'm gonna run through some of your credits. Maggie, big Wolf on campus, then one of your bigger credits. 30, uh, third Rock from the Sun. Great show, then Grounded for Life. Another great show. Everyone hates Chris. Everybody hates Chris. Everybody hates Chris. Another great show. I'm in Hell. We're gonna talk about that. King of the Hill. You were there for many years. Glen Martin, dds. I never heard of that one, but I was involved in it. then Now, most recently you were writer, what are you executive, co-executive producer on Bob's Bergs.Greg Thompson:So I, I'm, I'm down to consulting producer. Technically I was we'll talk, I was co exec. I was actually executive, I was actually executive producer to be, to be most technical. Well, yeah, we all got promoted up to executive producer after aMichael Jamin:Certain And what happened? Why did you get bounced down to co exec? I mean, a consulting producer.Greg Thompson:I decided to rank fewer, fewer days a week. So I, I've, I've, am I, do you still want me on the show?Michael Jamin:Yeah, I'm, now I'm jealous of you. How many days a week are you working?Greg Thompson:I only work two days.Michael Jamin:Oh. And of those two days, how many days are you really working? ?Greg Thompson:I don't know. Probably four. Cuz it filters into other days andMichael Jamin:Yeah,Greg Thompson:It does over it also. Yeah.Michael Jamin:We're gonna talk about that. But I wanna get into the beginning, Greg. Cause I, I, I, so we met in the Warner Brothers Writers Program, writers workshop, or whatever it was called. Yeah, we did. And you were, were supposed to be you and your partner. Our Abrams were supposed to be the competition that me and Seavert were facing. And, but very quickly we realized we weren't, we weren't gonna, we weren't gonna make good enemies, friends and love.But, but I gotta say, Greg, you've always been, and I know I've never, probably never said this to you personally, but you were, it may seem odd since we don't talk that often, but you were definitely one of my closer friends, closest friends in the industry, because I always feel like I, I feel like we're not in competition. I can always be, I can confide in you to tell you what's going on with my career. I never feel like I'm gonna get stabbed in the back. You always got my back. I got your back. So you, you've always been a great friend. And that's why as I thank, thank you for doing the show and helping everyone Oh, tell your story.Greg Thompson:You're, you're very welcome. You, of course, it's of course it's mutual. Um, and I'll just say at the Radcliffe or at the, uh, pardon me, the Writer's Warner Brothers Writer's Workshop, um, I was, uh, so intimidated by you and Seavert. I, uh, you like you, we were kind of sited. We were seated in kind of a big o and you were, you guys were like across the room and you already, you already had credit. You had a credit on Lois and Clark, which was like, you know, incredibly impressive. We didn't have credits.Michael Jamin:That's what you were, that's what you're, because there was no other reason to be intimidated by us. So we never said anything like, IGreg Thompson:Think, I don't know, you just, you looked, you looked the right part. Sea had this kind of scowl on his face all the time, which, which was very untrue to his personality. But he just looked, uh, super serious. Like, like heMichael Jamin:WasGreg Thompson:Interesting figuring it all out.Michael Jamin:Turns out neither of us. It was a prestigious program. And, and it didn't help either of us. It didn't help. It definitely didn't help. But it didn't help you did itGreg Thompson:Other than Well, it, it did get us, it did lead us to an agent, which then, which then led us to our first job. So it actually did help us, even though the Warner Brothers, the studio was not interested in hiring us,Michael Jamin:Right? So after,Greg Thompson:After watching us work,Michael Jamin:As I tell our audience to catch 'em up, um, so yeah, we worked together. So we never worked together. We were just, we became friends on that. And then later, then later we shared a bungalow. We both had overall deals at CBS Radford. And so we shared a bungalow. We'd have lunch together. Remember we'd hang out in your office and just talk about ideas. Bounce Yeah. Each other that think an overall deal's great. That was fun. And then later was, no, king Hill was before that.Greg Thompson:King Hill was beforeMichael Jamin:That. Right? And then later Radford, our overall deal. Then later we hired you guys on, on Glen Martin. And you guys saved our butts. You and your partner Aaron, saved our butts. And then how did I Thank you. I almost, I almost thanked you by destroying your career. . I only remember you guys, you guys came in, was it, it was season two, right? Of Glen Martin.Greg Thompson:Yeah. Season two. Yeah.Michael Jamin:We, we brought you in. We had the money. We wanted very, we wanted season writers. And you guys came in, you always delivered great drafts, which is, is, I always say, this is all you want from a writer. Can you turn in a good draft? And you guys always did. And then there was talk of spinning off Glen Martin to a spinoff. And I remember we were like, Hey, we'll do this show. And then you could run the other show or which one, one or the other you guys could run. And you're like, eh, we got this other offer to go to this cartoon called Bob's Burgers. You don't wanna go to Bob's Burgers,Greg Thompson:,Michael Jamin:You wanna stay here? . And then, and thank God you took that offer, cuz I would've felt terrible like ruining your career. Cause that they spinoff never happened. . And then Glen Martin was canceled and it jumped off just in time to go to,Greg Thompson:There was an idea that Glen Martin was gonna jump to Fox or something, andMichael Jamin:There was a lot of lies floating .Greg Thompson:Yeah. It was probably Michael Eisner was planning these thoughts.Michael Jamin:Um, right. I forgot Fox. Fox didn't, Fox had no, had no knowledge of that. They weren't on Greg Thompson:. But, uh, yeah. But yeah, I think we all thought the puppet animation genre was gonna explode. And, and I have to say, it's really funny. It's still, when I look at, I've dug up some old Glen Martin's. It is really funny. I mean, it is, it was an underrated show under watched certainly, but also underrated.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Yeah. It was, we did some good stuff. You guys wrote some great episodes. But then, so you got the offer because Bob's Burgers co-create by Jim Dore. We both work with on King of the Hill. So he reached out to you guys. How did you have this Bob about, and why didn't he reach out to us? ?Greg Thompson:I didn't probably You were working. You, you're busy. Um, weMichael Jamin:Were busyGreg Thompson:Developed by Jim DotR. I should make sure I say that properly. Created by Lauren Bouchard, developed by Jim DotR. Um, yeah, he was just staffing up. And actually he, he had hired two other guys, uh, before us. And then there, um, and gosh, I'm blanking blanket on their names. Sorry. Um, but they had a pilot going, and their pilot got picked up to production. So they had to drop out of Bob's burger's mm-hmm. . And, and then that opened up a slot and Jim, Jim called us to, to come interview for it. And we saw the That's been, and, and you guys, you guys let us out of our Glen Martin deal early by the way. You, you did us a favor that not everybody would've done.Michael Jamin:That's that is true. Now some people wouldn't. But, but I think most,Greg Thompson:I most, I think most would good, good people would,Michael Jamin:Good people let you out. Our contract. Um, and so, and how many that was 2008, you've been on that? Oh, no,Greg Thompson:That was 2000, 2010. We went over there, 10, I think we, we went over to Glen Martin. We were there for actually second half of the first season through most of the second season.Michael Jamin:Oh, that's what it wasGreg Thompson:Like Glen Martin. Yeah. So I think we wrote It'sMichael Jamin:A amazing song. You've been on Bob's Burgers. It's crazy. Like that's, that's job security.Greg Thompson:Yeah, I was thinking, yeah, it's, it's 12 over 12 years now. And I, I'm wearing, um, I'm wearing the first piece of swag we ever got on Bob's. I don't know if it's visible on camera or not. This, this, uh, old hoodie, which is now just in taters. It's 12 years old. AndMichael Jamin:Do you, is it hard coming up with stories that at the, for 12 years?Greg Thompson:Yes. Yes. Very hard. Um, also because unlike The Simpsons, which is kind of branched off into the peripheral characters, they'll do a episode about APU or whatever they used to. Anyway. Um, Bob's stays with the, the family. Right. And, and doMichael Jamin:You, how, how does the musical numbers work? How do you guys produce, you know, how do you write and produce that?Greg Thompson:Uh, well, I, Lauren is extremely musical. Lauren Bouchard very musical. So he always had, you know, a big interest in that. And he can, he can write and play. And then there are, you know, there are, uh, musical people, you know, uh, uh, on the show.Michael Jamin:Who writing the lyrics for that? Do you write some script or what?Greg Thompson:Well, we do, yeah. Yeah. Most of the writers will write some lyrics. I've written. Yeah, I've written some lyrics. And that's, you know, don't write the music occasionally. You might like take a stab at a tune for something silly, but yeah. And that's, that's like, and that's, that's like funMichael Jamin:For the music as wellGreg Thompson:Then. Yeah. Yeah. You do like the, um, yeah, we're like members of ASCAP or BMI or something. Yeah. And, um, yeah, there's actually been, um, two Bobs Burgers record albums that have come out. Didn't that sub pop?Michael Jamin:Were you with the movie as well,Greg Thompson:Though? Yeah, I mean, to a limited degree. It was, the movie was, was really written by, by Lauren and Nora Smith, who's also the, you know, his number two, she's also Show Runner. Um, and then, but all the other writers pitched in on Story and, and jokes and, you know, we looked at lots of cuts. And so we, we were, we were part of it. Uh, we're, we have credit, but, um, but they did the, uh, heavy lifting for sure.Michael Jamin:And, you know, you're kind of like the last writer, Guild of America. Cartoon , one of the last, right. I mean, you're covered by the writer Guild, right? It's not ascap. I mean, notGreg Thompson:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, it's a, yeah, it's a, it's a writer's guilded show. Yeah. And I guess, like, I don't know, not to tell Tales Outta School. I think Disney is still trying to, you know, put shows on the air on, you know, Disney now owns 20th Century Fox Television. Um, still try to get, you know, II covered shows, which that's a, a guild with fewer, bene fewer benefits for your, your viewers.Michael Jamin:It's nonstarter now. It's like, it's, I, it's, it's the animation.Greg Thompson:Oh, is it really? Yeah. Okay. Things are tough. Okay. I didn't realize that.Michael Jamin:How did you, now you didn't start you, what was your career for the, for people who are listening, what was your career before you got into writing? I'll start from theGreg Thompson:Beginning. Um,Michael Jamin:Year was 1948.Greg Thompson:. I was, I was 12. The, uh, that wasThe, I I would just say in brief that like, I always loved television growing up. I loved movies and television. Uh, and I, I became a writing major in college, uh, creative writing major, which wasn't, wasn't a good idea. Uh, but at all that time, it never occurred to me that there were people that wrote television . I never looked at the credits. And so it never occurred to me that there would be a career doing screenwriting. Um, and so after I got outta college, I went into, I moved to New York and I got into, uh, book publishing and was a, worked in marketing for a few different publishers. Uh, book and magazine publishing. And that was go, that was my career. That was what I was doing. I was gonna be kind of a business person. And, you know, in, I wore a suit, uh, took the subway.Um, and then I went to business school to get an MBA thinking, well, that's the next step of my, my, uh, tremendous business career. And that brought me out to LA afterwards to work at the LA Times. Um, and, uh, uh, Aaron Abrams. So you bet you, before my friend, uh, had split up with his wife, he'd moved out to LA to be a screenwriter, and then his marriage had blown up. Um, so he had an empty bedroom. And I moved in with him to begin my job at the LA Times. And Aaron was trying to be a screenwriter. And so for the,Michael Jamin:From college,Greg Thompson:Uh, yeah, we kind of, we did an equivalent of the, uh, we, we did a little, uh, summer school publishing bootcamp kind of thing. Um, interesting. One summer after college, like a six week program, a little like the, the sitcom writing workshop in a way, but for people interested in publishing. Um, and so just like a summer school thing. So I met him doing that. We, we hit it off. We had, you know, kind of this instant, instant rapport. Um, and, uh, I thought he was hilarious and everything. And so I wasn't surprised when he eventually decided that he was gonna try to be a screenwriter. So then I move into the, I move into his, uh, terrible, messy apartment. Um, and, and I see like he is got a bunch of scripts. I'd never seen a script before. Uh, you know, it's kind of, it was pre-internet.You couldn't like, download scripts. It's like, oh, wow, this is weird. So that led me to reading scripts, talking to Aaron about what he was doing. Uh, you know, he very generously would ask me to read things he was working on and ask if I had any ideas or thoughts. Uh, and, and then, and then, and then Aaron suggested we were, we were having some conversation about the, uh, actually the NFL player's strike, uh, of the eighties. And he said, I always thought that would be an interesting movie. Um, so, uh, then he said, do you wanna try to write a movie about that with me? So together, we basically hammered out this, um, comedy that did not become the, was it a Keanu Reeves movie, but was The Replacements. Ours was called Substitute Heroes. And it was much like The Replacements. And, and that was the first thing we wrote together. And that ended up, um, we ended up selling that for a guild minimum to some place.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you, and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.Greg Thompson:The substitution Heroes, where did you sell it? Football comedy. Yeah.Michael Jamin:AndGreg Thompson:Where did you want? And it ended up selling to like, uh, some producers for Guild minimum, um, low budget minimum, which was I think like $26,000 or something like that. Or maybe, maybe more. Uh, but that was, I, you know, obviously that would be thrilling even now to sell a movie for, you know, a little bit of money. So it was very thrilling to, to me and, um, and Aaron. And so, and then at the same time, like I'm working my LA Times job, and I wasn't enjoying that a ton. You know, I was in like this, I don't know, weird little group called Market Planning. And we'd do these like analyses of like Orange County advertising market and stuff that no one would ever look at. Um, and, uh, and the LA Times was a place, I always remember this. They would do casual Friday, one day a month.So you had to, you had to remember what Friday remember? Casual. Casual. That was before we were casual all the time. Yeah. Right. So you had to remember what Friday of the month was, casual Friday. So you could not wear your suit. Um, and then for our, uh, Christmas party, we had a, like an annual Christmas party. You'd have to come in an hour early that morning. And the, the Christmas party would be like, between the hours of 7:00 AM and 8:00 AM , or 8:00 AM and 9:00 AM I, I forget when work started , at least in my department, that's,Michael Jamin:You have to get up to your party. Some party.Greg Thompson:It wasn't . Yeah, no, it wasn't, it wasn't festiveMichael Jamin:.Greg Thompson:So it was that there was that kind of, it was that kind of play. So meanwhile, you know, then I'm like, you know, thinking, oh, well this, this screenwriting thing's working out great. I'll do that instead. Um, you know, and I think, you know, like, you know, we are getting a lot of meetings and I think, you know, in Hollywood, like a meeting sounds exciting. Yeah. It'll almost inevitably lead to nothing. But still for a moment you feel like, you know, you're driving on a lot, you have a pass, they're waiting for you, you sit down, someone brings you out water, you feel important. And, and it's, the people you're meeting with are almost always just filling their schedule to feel important. Yes. So you go in there and together, all of you feel important, and then you leave. ItMichael Jamin:Sounds like you're, you've listened to my podcast. Cause I've said these words many times.Greg Thompson:OhMichael Jamin:Yes, go important, but go on. Right. Then go. What happened?Greg Thompson:Uh, so then, um, I, I remember Aaron was like, he had this, um, he played like beach volleyball, uh, in this like league or something like that, even though he was terrible. ButMichael Jamin:I don't, I don't believe that part of his story,Greg Thompson:But, well, I'll say he was on a beach volleyball team. Whether you could describe it as playing, I don't know. But I think he was trying to beat girls. And so, but he, but there were a couple like TV writers in his, in the beach volleyball group, and he said, these guys are all doing great. They all have like, big houses. Uh, they're so successful. We should like, let's forget movies. Let's try to write television. So we started working on, uh, some spec scripts, as you know, I'm sure you've probably talked about that at different times. And, uh, you know, we wrote an Ellen, you know, and a spec is your sample to get hired onto a show. We wrote an Ellen that I thought was great, uh, that I still remember what it was about. It was about Ellen dates her assertiveness instructor and then can't break up with him because she's not assertive enough. Which,Michael Jamin:Funny.Greg Thompson:Well, well, for one thing, I, I don't know if there is such a thing as an assertive assertiveness instructor , I think it felt, it felt right to us in 1994 or so. Um, but, you know, but we thought, okay, we've nailed it. We've written one spec, now we're gonna, now our career will begin in television. And everybody hated it. And I mean, you've probably experienced this, or people experienced people who've felt this way. They fall in love with their spec. They think their spec is great. It's really the, the first spec they've written. And they become very, very attached to it. Not attached to every part of it. Every, every element. They're not receptive to notes. And I, I think I was certainly that way about this, this one, but the, uh, the feedback was so uniformly negative. It was like, okay, well let's , I think we have to write another one. So we wrote a Larry Sanders uhhuh, uh, a Larry Sanders spec, which went much better. It was just a much better show for us. It was more in our sensibility. It was. So, uh, that's the one that, uh, we ended up using to get into the, uh, Warner Brothers sitcom writing workshop.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And that, the rest, now Aaron, Aaron Abras was this, you know, we were both friends. One of the sweetest guys you ever met. And then he tragically died halfway through your career. And then I remember, I mean, it was just awful, but I remember either calling you or writing to you, and I was like, listen, cuz you had to reinvent your career at that point. You were, you had a writing partner that you relied on and you bounced things off. And then you had to become a solo writer. And I remember reaching out to you saying, listen, if, like, if you wanna, if you might need to write new samples, if you want help breaking a story or anything, like just call me receiver. Well, happy. But, but you never did. What wasGreg Thompson:That like? I re I re I I, I, I do remember that, and I still grateful for that. Uh, but you and Stever both reached out and were were terrific during that time. Um, it was, it was fortunate for me that I was on Bob's burgers. We had done, Aaron and I had done a season on Bob's, so, uh, it hadn't even aired yet. Um, but it was, I'm trying to think when it got it. Season two order, I guess it didn't get that until it had aired for a few, a few weeks. Um, once Bob's began airing and the show got picked up for another season, which was a little nip and tuck, cuz the ratings were a little, um, or touch and go rather, uh, uh, the Lauren and Jim offered me, you know, the opportunity to come back as a solo writer. Uh, so I, I did not have to produce those other specs. I did have to write a pilot that Aaron and I had been contracted to write. So I had to, I did have to finish the pilot. We'd outlined it, but we hadn't written it yet. And, um, I had to, I had to write it. But when you, that was, so that was the first thing I wrote.Michael Jamin:And was it like, even now, do you hear his voice? Like, do you think, what would Aaron do here? Or, or are you like, you know, now this is, are you, you know, areGreg Thompson:You Yeah, no, I I I, I still totally do. Uh, I mean, he was, he's such a funny guy and, you know, it was, you know, he used to say like, you know, the, unfortunately the funny person of the writing team died. So the, the, the guy who's like, does little, I don't even know what my specialty was, kind of doing things Aaron did, but a little less well founded. Uh, and, um, but yeah, no, I'll, I'll sometimes if I'm, if I'm writing and if a, a joke will occur to me, and I'll think that is an Aaron kind of joke, right. You know, that that's, that's his sensibility. So as much as I can cha uh, channel, uh, Aaron's voice, I, I I try to, um, he was, you know, just a unique voice.Michael Jamin:I imagine it would be honestly be a little paralyzing that first, at least the first couple of scripts you're like, I'm, I'm, I'm flying solo here.Greg Thompson:Yeah. Uh, and I, you know, I don't know how it is with you and Seaver, I think, you know, you, you do work separately at times. I know. Um, but, uh, every, everything Aaron and I had written, we'd written together in the same room. You know, we might go off and work on a scene by ourselves for a while and then share it, but mostly it was like kind of taking turns at a keyboard while the other guy was there in the room. Yeah. Uh, looking, you know, looking over the shoulder. So it was, uh, it was, you know, a pretty, um, uh, uh, close writing situation. So yeah, I just, um, I, I, I would do a couple tricks of, I would, I remember the, when I was writing the pilot, uh, it was like, okay, I'm gonna write the scenes that I think are easier to write first.Mm-hmm. . And so I wrote scenes out of order just to make progress. Right. Uh, and so then when you make a little progress, you begin to feel better, you begin to feel more confident. Um, right. And, and I also, and I still do this, I'll, I'll write a scene maybe with some, some of the dialogue at all caps, which is my way of saying this is not the dialogue. This is an approximation of what has to be said here in this moment. Uh, just to get through it, just to get through it so I don't get stuck. Um, yeah. Uh, because yeah, I mean, Erin and I would, we'd, we would try to do as little rewriting as possible, just maybe outta laziness. So we would kind of get a lot of consensus on everything before we wrote, uh, or as, you know, as we worked our way down the page. But as a, as a solo writer, I just couldn't do that. It was like, Nope, I'm, I'm gonna have to do more revisions, I'll have to do more passes. Um mm-hmm. . So that's what, that's what I started doing.Michael Jamin:And now does it just feel comfortable on your own or, you know, I, it's interesting,Greg Thompson:You know, I know it, it, it does and it doesn't, it always feels a little in like, you know, right now I'm, you know, trying to come up with story ideas to write one and looking at the calendar and looking at how much time I have, and I think, oh God, am I gonna have enough time to break it? And, uh, you know, holidays are coming up that's gonna cut into time. Uh, so I, I always have a little bit of panic, and I think I'm known for this on the show of being fairly neurotic about scripts, worried I won't put it together. Uh, cuz you know, there's so many, so many, Michael, you know, there's so many jokes in the script, it's like several hundred by the time you're done. And it's like, oh, how will I think of all those jokes?Michael Jamin:It's that, that's the part that's intimidating to me. It's the getting the story out. Well,Greg Thompson:Yeah, no, I mean, the story, you know, obviously the most important part. Um, but, you know, every element is hard. And so it's whatMichael Jamin:Now how mu like how is it run, how is it differently working on Bob's workers than it was either at Glen Martin or Kim King of the Hill for you? You know, the process.Greg Thompson:Uh, I'd say Bob's Berger's, it's much more, uh, you kind of become your own little executive producer of your episode all the way through production, you know, and basically, most of the times you will be coming up with the idea of your episode. You will be pitching it, you will be running the room, uh mm-hmm. as you, you know, put, uh, break the story. Uh, you know, then you're updating, you know, Lauren, the, and Laura, the showrunners. But you're, it's, it's kind of on you. It's, it's not, it's not like, and there will be people breaking stories simultaneously, which I guess was what we had at King of the Hill too. Yeah. Uh, a a few small rooms, um, but it isn't like probably most of television today still where it's everybody around a table, the whole staff breaking one story at a time. Right. With, you know, walking through the beats on a, on a board, kind of assembling it all, everybody, the staff, everybody together. It's, it's more individual. Uh, you, you, we kind of have more rope to, you know, make magic or get in trouble.Michael Jamin:And now you're doing, you're consulting, which is so interesting, just a couple days a week. Um, yeah. What, how's that for you working out? Everyone talks about what?Greg Thompson:It's,Michael Jamin:It'sGreg Thompson:Perfect. It's simultaneous with, it's simultaneous with C so it's, it's, it's hard to separate the two in a way. So it's, so far it's been people are beginning to come back to the office, but for the last two and a half years, it's been all Zoom.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Uh,Greg Thompson:And uh, I would say like, if I didn't have to like write scripts occasionally, it would be fent it would be so easy. I mean, not easy, but, but it's always like, you know, if you could sit back and give people pitches on their episode all day, and it's like, well, here's my idea. If it works, terrific. If it doesn't work, well , you know, it's not my problem. It it is. ButMichael Jamin:Do you think you'll stay there for, for a, for a while longer? What do you, what are your plans? Do you have any?Greg Thompson:I I, I, you know, I've just kind of taken it year by year. Uh, the, um, we'll see, um, I don't know. It's, it's still been a fun thing and, and most of the staff is the same staff as when we first grouped up 12 years ago.Michael Jamin:No one's, no one's leaving back, back when we started, um, uh, you know, we, you could jump shows, you might work on a show for a couple years, then jumped to another show. But now with the market, you'd be crazy to leave any show if you're on a show, you stay there and you hang on for dear life.Greg Thompson:I think so. I think so. I think that's been true of Bob's and, you know, uh, Wendy and Lizzie Molino, two of to have really, you know, very funny writers on, on Bob's. They did, they left only because they developed their own show, uh, the Great North. So, but despite that, they still have a hand in Bob's and write an episode a year. So nobody really wants to let go of Bob's.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And then, uh, yeah. Do you, are you developing at all? Have you tried to develop in recent years or,Greg Thompson:You know, I, past the first year, no, I haven't, I haven't tried to develop, and that's, you know, I have to say that's a little bit of laziness on my part. Like, you know, why do I wanna develop myself out of a job, this great job on Bob's? Uh, yeah. And, and also it was like, you know, we, Aaron and I, Aaron and I think did like eight or nine pilots, only one produced, but it was always really hard and, uh, a distressing experience. You'd, you'd, you know, we'd go in full of, full of ambition and hopes and dreams of how this next pilot was gonna be great. And then, and then you'd get so ground down by the process, we'd be miserable and hate, and hate our pilot by the end of it. Michael Jamin:People don't under no understanding, uh, of how the industry actually works. That's what I'm trying to educate them. But like we say the same things, like if we didn't have, if we were on full time staff, we, we wouldn't have to develop, we wouldn't run out to develop. It's only because staffs, the orders are so much shorter that you kind of have to, if you wanna make a living, you gotta sell what you gotta,Greg Thompson:Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, tell provision's changed, changed it that way. So so, you know, I'm a little embarrassed. I haven't, you know, tried to develop in the last decade, but I don't know, I'm just,Michael Jamin:So what, what advice do you have? Do you, I mean, are you bringing on any young writers or what advice do you have when you see a young writer join the show?Greg Thompson:Uh, well, boy, I don't know. I guess it would be the advice. Uh, I'd give any young writer, you know, just try to, try to pay attention to the voices of the show. Know the show, watch, watch every episode. You know, when we were hired on King of the Hill, I, I'd watched King of the Hill, but I hadn't seen everything. But, you know, I methodically started plowing through hundreds of episodes at that point. I think maybe 200 episodes had happened by the time we, we joined it. So, and that's just kind of an education and you internalize the voices of the characters and, and it, it helps you, it helps you know what to pitch. So, you know, we'll, we'll have, obviously, like a new writer will often like, pitch an episode idea that we've kind of already done. And, you know, it's hard to catch up with everything, but you have to try.Michael Jamin:Right.Greg Thompson:And just, I guess trust that you're, trust that you're there for a reason and that your ideas are good and, you know, do your best.Michael Jamin:Right. Right. But it's a pretty supportive environment there, it sounds like.Greg Thompson:Oh, it's great. Yeah. No, it's, it's really a nice group of people. Um, you know, you've been on many staffs and I was on many staffs, and I think my experience was almost always good. Uh, I hope yours was too. But you know, the, I think we probably all have both had the experience of being in a room where you're sitting in the same, you're around a table, same table every day. You're not only that, but you're seated in the same seat every day. Mm-hmm. , uh, same person to the left, same person to the right. And, and sometimes there will be people who will make a point of only laughing at, uh, somebody's, somebody several people's pitches, but never several other people's pitches.Interesting. Trying to, right. Yeah. I mean, uh, and, uh, it, it is a little bit of a, and this is, you know, it was rare to have this experience, but, you know, maybe did once or twice, um, pe writers are trying to get their jokes in. Uh, they would rather have their joke in than a funnier joke from somebody else. So there is that, there is that bit of competition. And I'm not saying I would have the funnier joke that no one would want in or anything like that, but, uh, uh, it's, it's this natural, um, selfishness, self-preservation, I guess. Yeah. Of like, right. I must, I must have a certain number of jokes in the, in the episode, or I'm not, I'm not earning my, my morsel of meat Yeah. Today. Yeah. So, um, so there, you know, there is a competitiveness. And I think, I think some shows, I think very could be bad miserable places. Um, Bob's was a fantastic place. Everybody was great. Right. Everybody was supportive. Uh, everybody was funny. Uh, everybody is funny. So many great writers. So it's been a, a fantastic situation.Michael Jamin:And how, and you say you were, you're involved heavily in the production. So you'll watch the animatics, you'll give notes on the air, or do you watch all the automatics or just the ones you, you produce?Greg Thompson:Uh, we watch all thematics and colors. Uh, but the animat, you know, for your own episode, you, you will be, you know, more involved in notes and revisionismMichael Jamin:Just forGreg Thompson:People. And the,Michael Jamin:The a animat are the rough, uh, before like crude sketches of the, uh, cartoon, the animation. And then you give notes on that. And then, then it's more like for blocking, which before the character should do and what kind of shot you have. And then later they color it in and, you know, that's, then you, you give notes on that as well. But you, are you also at the record? Are you, um, recording the actors?Greg Thompson:Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, we've done that a few different ways. In the beginning of the show, it was the, uh, Bob's was unique in this, in that they, you'd have multiple actors in, you know, on, on Mike, uh, at the same time. And it would be a simultaneous recording, so you'd have overlap mm-hmm. , uh, and improv. And that was kind of a hallmark of Bob's. And then in, uh, as c happened, we had to kind of break that apart and actors were recording in their homes, and so we were getting them one at a time. Right. Um, and so now it's, it's kind of a little combination of,Michael Jamin:But are you direct in a way, the actress yourselves or someone else? One of the store runners directingGreg Thompson:Lauren, Lauren was the director for like the first 10 years mm-hmm. every episode. And then during Covid we began to direct our own episodes. Right. Uh, but now we're actually in the process of having one writer direct all the episodes, uh, uh, with the, uh, a writer producer will direct all of them. And just so there's kind of a, a unified voice coming from the directing booth. Right. Um, and then Theri, the writer is also there to give notes and suggestions.Michael Jamin:Roll their eyes. You're doing it wrong.Greg Thompson:Yeah. I'd say, no, that's not, that's not, it's goes. So, yeah. And uh, I'd say Lauren is kind of constantly tinkering with the process, trying to improve it, even after like 12 years you think it would, things would be, okay, this is how we do it, this is how we'll always do it. But no, it's still being, aspects of production are being reinvented and tinkered with all the time.Michael Jamin:It's a great show. Cause it has such a sweetness to it, such an earnestness to, uh, who knew, who knew it was gonna be sort of giant.Greg Thompson:It does. It does. Uh, and I know early on, like, um, you know, Aaron and I would pitch, uh, coming from a, well, I guess working on every other show, we pitched a lot of, like, stories that involved conflict between the family, you know, uh, that was a little maybe sharper than Lauren wanted to do. Yeah. He didn't want, you know, his thing is he doesn't ever want the characters being mean to each other. Right. Anything perceived as mean. And so, like, you know, like, oh, if you're watching most sitcoms, it's like, oh, I don't know, everybody's, everybody does this all the time. You know what, so, but he wanted something sweetie.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And it's a good instinct. When we, we, when we worked for, uh, Chris Lloyd who, you know, he ran Frazier for many years, and then later we worked for Man Practice. He used to say the same things. He, he would say Velvet Gloves. So when the characters slapped each other, they had to be wearing velvet gloves. So you never wanna hit too hard. Everyone saw too hard, you know, I was like, oh, that's, that's smart. I'll start using that wordGreg Thompson:. I won't do it, but I'll use the word. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and, and certainly like, you know, one thing with the internet, now, you can see what everybody thinks of every episode and on Reddit. And do you guysMichael Jamin:Do that?Greg Thompson:Uh, Twitter? Do you go? Yeah. Yeah. DoesMichael Jamin:That change the way you write future episodes?Greg Thompson:I think a little, um, like we did an episode once where the family was on a game show, which is kind of an unusual episode for us. It was pretty early. And they end up kind of getting cheated out of their prize at the end of the game show. It's kind of a, they're kind of ripped off. Mm-hmm. and the ending, we thought, no, it's a great ending. It's, you know, it's, it's perfect. It's funny, it's, uh, it's television viewers hated the bels that that had happened to the Belchers that they'd been, it, it felt like an unsatisfying ending to many, many, many viewers. And they would keep bringing it up. In fact, they still bring it up, uh, online as, as a, an episode ending. They don't like, uh, and you know, I think maybe because it was an unearned, they hadn't really done anything wrong and they ended up being, you know, kind of robbed. So I think we, we avoid, we try to avoid lessons where they, or episodes where they just have complete egg on their face by the end. Right. There has to be some kind of little, little victory or something learned, something positive that comes outMichael Jamin:It. Yeah. That's interesting. It's interesting you take that few, cuz I never sire kind of does. I, I'm really kind, I stay away from, I don't want to hear about the reviews. I don't want to hear about what the viewers think, just wanna, you know, do my thing and cross my fingers. But it's, you know, different.Greg Thompson:I mean, that's probably healthier. But if it's an episode that I wrote that's airing, um, I just devour Twitter.Michael Jamin:Do you really?Greg Thompson:Trying to, trying to, uh, oh, yeah. No, I, I I definitely try to cherry pick , you know, any positive comments.Michael Jamin:We went on, geez, this is about a year ago, Sierra and I went on, I don't know when we went on YouTube to like, see what people were saying about Glen Martin. We hadn't watched the show in years. And, and then there's some guy from his basement, some young guy talking about the show and he nailed it. He, he was as if he was in the writer's room. Like he understood the show better, better than we did. And it was just hilarious to hear him take it apart. I was like, man, this guy,Greg Thompson:I think, did you send that around? Did you send that around to the writers? I kind of remember reading something that I thought, yeah, this guy's, this guy's good, thisMichael Jamin:Guy's, he was like a spy me. So much Funny .Greg Thompson:Yeah. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Wow.Greg Thompson:That, oh, it was a funny, it was a funny show. Does that air, I mean, does that, how does that, as a quick aside, is Glen Martin accessible on anyMichael Jamin:Platform? I think, yeah, I think it's on YouTube where you can watch it all for free. So we don't get any, I mean, we have some points and we don't get any of it. I don't think you make money by showing,Greg Thompson:But it'sMichael Jamin:For free.Greg Thompson:Did some, I mean, did some kid upload it or is it, is it like they're all this, whoever owns it, put it, putMichael Jamin:It on Michael Eisner there as a whole, like maybe we get enough used, like he can even sell it again somewhere. I'm like, you know, yeah. Sell it somewhere. Let's, let's bring it back. But I don't think we've pushed band to bring it back. I can't, we reboot Glen Martin. I don't think there's anything there. Oh, that's funny.Greg Thompson:Oh. Oh,Michael Jamin:Well,Greg Thompson:Uh,Michael Jamin:Greg, is there any place, is there anything you wanna plug? Do you wanna talk about your next season? Should people follow you anywhere? Is there anything you wanna get off your chest before eight?Greg Thompson:Oh, well, God, I'm not really on Twitter. No. I mean, I can't, it's, I'm unfollowable on social media cuz um, I don't know. Just, uh, I guess keep watching. Uh, uh, I kind of forget where we are production-wise. I never know what episodes about to air. Yeah. Cause as you know, the, the production schedule in in animation is very long. It's almost don'tMichael Jamin:Without nine months with you guys in almost a year.Greg Thompson:Well, it can be, you know, if, especially if you know, the order changes. Right. And, andMichael Jamin:How manyGreg Thompson:Episodes do you get, you know, after production. But it's a longMichael Jamin:Time. What, what is your order this year? Like 22?Greg Thompson:Uh, I think it's 22. I think it's, yeah, Bob's is one of the last, you know, shows that still gets a 22 order. Uh, and it does less so now, but it did, you know, repeat a lot too. So there was residuals involved. Um, so, but fortunateMichael Jamin:It worked out.Greg Thompson:Um,Michael Jamin:,Greg Thompson:No. Let's see what I, I, I, uh, I would merely plug, uh, your,Michael Jamin:My Plus this in my Pod . All right. Everyone that well,Greg Thompson:Are you still doing the videos as uh, what? Oh, I was just asking if you're doing the video, the video, uh, podcast things as well. Yeah.Michael Jamin:These will air, yeah, they air they'll be on YouTube as well, and we run clips across media. Okay. People can, you know, they can get it everywhere. They can. Yeah. Continue following.Greg Thompson:Okay. It'sMichael Jamin:All part of that. Yeah. It's all, but that's, yeah. I, I, I, this has been fascinating hearing your story as far as I'm concerned, but ,Greg Thompson:But Greg,Michael Jamin:Thank you forGreg Thompson:I, I, uh, well, thank you. I hopeMichael Jamin:You're a good dude.Greg Thompson:Uh, thank, thank you for having me, Michael. I, you know, I'm a, I'm a huge fan of yours, uh, and, uh, yeah, honored.Michael Jamin:Oh God, this is my honor. But alright, everybody, thank you so much to great comic comedian, writer Greg Thompson. And, uh, yeah. So what, let me tell you what else is going on over here. So keep, if you guys wanna sign up for my watch list, that's my free newsletter where I send out daily tips for screenwriters and creative types at Michael jam.com/watchlist and keep following us here. And, uh, yeah, we have different content on YouTube. Our YouTubes at Michael Jam, writer and, uh, Instagram. Keep follow My Instagram, the TikTok Act. Michael Jam writer. All right, everyone. Thank you so much, Greg. Thank you. Until next week for more people. All right. Be good.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

Jay is an Emmy-winning writer and producer known for shows like The Simpsons, Frasier, George Lopez, Malcolm In The Middle, and School of Rock.Show NotesJay Kogen's IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0463124/Jay Kogen on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jaykogenJay Kogen on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jaykogen//Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/courseFree Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/freeJoin My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlistAuto-Generated TranscriptsJay Kogen:Improv helps this to be able to risk. You don't know what's coming. You don't know what you're gonna do. And you commit to a character and you commit to an idea and you take it and see where it goes. It's no different than when you sit down to write a scene and you're about to commit to writing a scene. You might know where it's supposed to go, kind of. But this is what really, when it's time to commit to writing it,Michael Jamin:You're listening to screenwriters Need to Hear this with Michael Jam.Hey everyone, it's Michael Jam. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this today. I got a very special guest that none of you deserve to hear. You're just not good enough. But if you , But if you do wanna listen, pull over. If you're listening to your car, pull over. You gotta, because this is a big shot in the TV world. So with my guest, I have Jay Cogan and I have to, You gotta know who this guy, this guy's been around the block. Okay. He started at, I believe he started on the Tracy Allman show. He wrote on The Simpsons, the single guy, The Wrong Guy. This was back when he told his agent he would only do guy shows and everyone's like, This guy's out of his mind. But then he did Frazier. George Lopez. You did the first. I was in the other George Lopez.You're the one people think I run a Lopez. Nah, not that Lopez or Malcolm in the Middle. And I'm leaving off half your credits. I'm just skimming through this. That class Happi divorced to Troop Wendell and Vinny Kirsty, which is where we worked together for 10 minutes. Cuz I was for the freelance episode that we did. But that was only 10, honestly. That was a real fast interaction. Then Ned and Stacy School of Rock. And then now you're doing, I guess oversharing and Renaissance. I wanna talk more about that and the new Punky Brewster. I don't know how that happened, I wanna know more about that. But, okay, so my guest is Jay Hogan and I gotta say, I never told you this, Chad, but my first job was on Just Shoe Me. And so I was a young baby writer and everyone that, on that staff, it was like Laan and Andy Gordon Con and Stephen Engel and you were one of these names that always came up. It was j Hogan said the funniest thing on Frazier. J Hogan did this. He came into the room, he did that and you were on, Honestly, in my mind, you were like this mythical character. And even at the time I was like, I don't know if it's j Hogan or Jake Hogan. And I don't want to ask because I don't.Jay Kogen:No one does. No one knows. It's true. No one knows. It's tooMichael Jamin:Bad. Just ask. TrueJay Kogen:. I'm still mythical. By the way, just so you know, you're still, I may or may not be realMichael Jamin:Mythical. Right? Mythical, Okay.Jay Kogen:Yeah. Now you said I'm mythical. I don't know. So you don't know whether I'm real or not. SoMichael Jamin:I don't know. I don't wanna find out.Jay Kogen:I dunno.Michael Jamin:But we'll get to the bottom of this. PeopleJay Kogen:Who are driving, who pulled over, thank you for pulling over , I appreciate it. I hope you're safe. Put your hazards on.Michael Jamin:I So Jay, I got a million questions for you, but I guess let's start with the beginning. Everyone wants to know, how did you break in to Hollywood?Jay Kogen:Oh, it was a really rough ride, man. My dad was a writer producer, and I asked him to introduce me to some of his friends,Michael Jamin:. And let's talk about your dad. AndJay Kogen:I took it from there.Michael Jamin:But he wrote, and he wrote on a bunch of shows like Mary Tyler Moore show. What else did youJay Kogen:Write on? He did, he read, he wrote a Mary Tyler Moore, I believe. He wrote a Mash, he wrote A New Heart and The New Heart Show, Bob Newhart Show and Newhart, he wrote on The Covert Show and the Dean Martin Show and the Jim Davis show and the Donny Marie Show. And he worked on Empty Nest and he worked on a million shows and wrote one shitty movie,Michael Jamin:DidJay Kogen:Do it. It's called a soupy sales movie called Birds Do It. And my father was telling me that he can't bear to watch it . He hasn't seen it since 19 causeMichael Jamin:Rewritten. Cause Soki re rewroteJay Kogen:It. No, he wrote it completely. No, it's his fault. He's saying he's, it's horrible and it's his fault.Michael Jamin:But you grew up around it. So I thought you were from Brooklyn, but you grew,Jay Kogen:I was born in Brooklyn and my dad moved from Brooklyn. He was working on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. And he moved out from Brooklyn to come work on the Dean Martin Show in 1968. Jesus. And that was my first experience on a sound stage, was on the Dean Martin Show on a Christmas episode. And it said, Ah, this looks like a fun job. Little did I know that writing is not a fun job. Writing is a really unfun job.Michael Jamin:People don't realize that. But what was it? So what was it growing around it? Did you talk shop with you? I don't know. TalkJay Kogen:About I, my talking shop was gonna be limited . But even whenMichael Jamin:You got older, did he tell you how to write a script?Jay Kogen:No. I mean, here's the thing. You grew up in a family that I'm sure was a funny family. No question if you're funny. You grew up in a funny family. My father,Michael Jamin:My dad invented comedy , he told me he made it up.Jay Kogen:So my father and mother are funny and if I try to make a joke at the table and get them to laugh, it was a great victory. So you'd hone your skills to make people laugh at the dinner table or on the living room couch. And that's kind of your writer's room training. And that's how you sort become the jokey guy in high school or junior high and become the jokey guy. So jokes, jokes were stock and trade in my house and my way to win my father's affection. So I tried to get good at it,Michael Jamin:But you still had to learn story structure, you had to write a script.Jay Kogen:Well that sucked. It took me years to do that because I was done. I had money. Most writers, we had jokes, but we didn't really understand story structure at all. We thought we knew it was funny and we thought, oh, just put funny stuff down and that'll be enough and that is way wrong. But that's what I thought. And I wrote some spec scripts and handed them to my dad and he said, This is terrible. Become a lawyer. He would say, Do not try to become a writer. This is awful. I wrote with some successful writers today who I work with in school. The Billy Ray who was at Academy Award and nominated writer and Robbie Fox and mm-hmm , Wally Wolodarsky became my partner at The Simpsons and Tracy Ownership. And we wrote all the time. And my father would read these scripts and go, These are terrible.Do not get into the business. And so eventually I started working on PAing, on TV shows, getting people delivering scripts at three in the morning and getting people lunches, . And if I got it wrong, they'd scream at me and mm-hmm , all that kind of stuff. But I would learn, sit in the writer's room and watch them work out stories and figure out how they did stories. So that process was really enlightening. And so my partner and I, I tried to write a script and we wrote a script with a, it's for it's Gary Channeling show. Mm-hmm worked out one of their stories, which were always strange. And we did that. They kinda liked the script but they didn't buy it. And then we wrote another one and they didn't buy that. But then that became a sample that we got a job at the Tracy Allman Show from. And that's how it worked. And at the Tracy Allman show, under Heidi Pearlman and Jim Brooks and Sam Simon and Jerry Bellson, I started to learn that drama had a big part in comedy. And so there wasn't just jokes, it was jokes and story and characters that you cared about and situations that had impact and stakes and all those kind of things that you know about when you're a kid. But you ignore it and go like that. What's funny?Michael Jamin:Yeah. Right. It's so funny cuz I talk about this all the time. I wanna say you're gonna confirm, I guess hopefully. Or maybe I'm just an old blowhard and I just sound like an old frank. But I have a feeling you're gonna confirm a lot of stuff that I say. Cause I'm always like, no, the story's the most important thing. Jokes cut. You can always interchange the jokes. And people don't quite understand that whenJay Kogen:You can be a blow heart and also be right. So , those two things are not incongruous. But yes I will. When I talk to writers, I say that the story is first, character is second and jokes are third that you need the story is the hardest thing. Breaking a story is in writing is the hardest thing. Breaking a story, breaking it, making it sure that it pops, making sure that we're not going down stupid roads. That's the hardest thing. Everything else, the jokes are the easiest thing honestly. And the most replaceable thing, you don't like a joke, we'll cut it out and put a new joke in a character as they're very important. But sometimes you write something you realize, oh I have two characters that are the exact same person, and I, I'm gonna condense them into one person. Or I have characters doing the same, serving the same purpose in the story. And that's not a good idea. And so the story has to come first and that's always the most difficult thing. I always recommend to all writers, , outline your shit. Outline what you're gonna do before you're write. Show the outline to somebody, , get feedback on it before you waste your time writing a script on a story that's not gonna work.Michael Jamin:So that that's exactly right. I have to wanna bring this up cause I don't wanna forget this, but cuz my partner and I came in, we wrote, we did a freelance on the Kew Show, which we were on . And I have to say it was one of the most enjoyable experiences cuz it was like the last time, I mean I want to hear your thoughts on this. It was the last time I really was in a writer's room full of writers who had more experience than me because now it seems like I'm the old guy in the room now I'm the veteran guy and I really enjoyed working. YouJay Kogen:Made that in your brand, you were now that's your brand, you the experience guy . Yeah.Michael Jamin:But it was so much fun cuz you get to hear other people's stories, you get to hear their wisdom. There was so many heavy hitters in that room.Jay Kogen:Yeah, that was a fun room. I mean I've had a lot of fun rooms. The rooms are still fun when I go and do them. So like and am the oldest guy in the room now maybe, but I'm not sure sometimes. Depends on the show. But I've certainly been around a long, long time. So I'm going on, it'll be 40 years soon. That's a long time.Michael Jamin:Yeah, it is a long time. Yeah. So what do you accredit your longevity to? Is it you're getting your last three jobs basically?Jay Kogen:Well, the same way I got my first three jobs. It's sort of praying, meeting the right people, saying the right thing, wandering into a stupid situation that you didn't know about. And suddenly they have job so not organized. And so this, they're these jobs and you should, you're going to audition for these jobs and this is how it's a much more hazardous, haphazard. There's a show here and they may need somebody and you should be developing something here and you have a million irons in the fire and we'll see what happens.Michael Jamin:So you're constantly hustling. So it's not like your agents just setting this up, Oh hey, they wanna hire someone that you fit the bill. Right? I mean it's not as easyJay Kogen:As that. No, rarely that rarely happens. And sometimes it does. But I mean honestly demographically, I'm not the key kind of person that they're looking for right now. . And there's a million reasons for that. I mean we should talk about that. There's a need, There has been a desperate need to make the playing field equal to all people from all different backgrounds and for many, many years, sort of Jewish white guys, Had a preference. So we're now the guy like me, Brooklyn Jewish, Brooklyn Encino Jewish guy is, there's a dime a dozen, there's a lot of us . And then there's a brand new writers coming from different areas of experience and worlds and different backgrounds and more women and more people of, of uh, LGBTQ and more bipo people. And they all need a chance. They're sort starting to get a chance. And that means there's less room for people like you and me. And there's shorter pickups and there's smaller rooms. And so it, it's become a lot harder.Michael Jamin:It's a lot more hustle. And so you're also developing, how are you going about developing? Is it your own ideas or what are you doing?Jay Kogen:Some are my own ideas, some are ideas that I have with other people that I meet and I think, oh that's a good idea. Let's see if I can fix that. There's a pilot we're working on called Oversharing that's based on a play that I saw at UCB about a year and a half ago. And so we took the characters and the lifestyle of the characters in the play. The actors were also the writers. So I went, worked with these two women in their late twenties about what it means you toMichael Jamin:Be. So you approach them, you approach them, you say, Hey, I wanna develop your show.Jay Kogen:Yeah. Yes. With the help of Naomi Odenkirk, who is a manager, not my manager, but had called me in to, had seen this and I wanted to work with her and she said this is a good thing. So she matched me with these people and we've been working on this together for a while. And now we wrote a pilot and we're sort of seeing where it goes.Michael Jamin:So, Okay. That's interesting cuz sometimes people, you write the pilot first you go out with a pitch but you decided to write it first.Jay Kogen:Well here's the thing, we had a couple different things going on. The writers who were the actresses who did this didn't have writing samples, but they wanted to be part of the show. So to prove that they are able to write, they wrote, so this is their first episode and they'd like to be in it too, but maybe we'll sell it without them in it. But this is to prove proof of concept. Here's this thing, we may not use it to sell the show, we may,Michael Jamin:And you kind of just oversaw it. You didn't help with the writing, you just directed them a little bit or noJay Kogen:. Well we pitched out the story together. I taught them kind of how the story structure's gonna work and and bring their play into a series. That whole transfer from interesting series, I guess I would get it developed by credit, something like that. But I didn't write the script. I helped rewrite the script, but I was involved heavily in the creation of it. So mean, my goal in this kind of thing is not to put my stamp on it. My goal is to take their world, their idea and bring it to life. And so the second I'm of putting my 50 year old guy brand on her, their 20 something life, it's gonna get ruined. So I just have to sit back and appreciate the world they're creating and then give my input here or there about maybe steering in certain directions and maybe this is what makes it fun of your story and reminding them what their goal was and who their characters were. Sometimes you'd lose that track of that.Michael Jamin:So how do you feel young writers have changed now? How are they different now than in attitude and preparedness andJay Kogen:Everything? So much dumber.Michael Jamin:So much dumber. ,Jay Kogen:They're the same. I honestly feel like they're exactly the same. Different, The writer's rooms are different. What we're allowed to say and how we're allowed to behave is different. Yeah, I'm not going to say it's better or worse. It's just different. In the old days, we could make fun of each other. . And I was famous for doing room jokes. I did jokes, a lot of jokes in a writer's room. Sometimes people would say things and I would die. Sometimes people would say things and I would run out of the room so that you could see me in the window and just keep on running. And if my car was in the visual aspect of when I would get in my car and drive away, I would do a lot of jokes. I would get physically ill at something that if I heard two people were kissing or something, like I would do jokes, , all of which was based on the idea that they know I'm joking.So I could make a joke about somebody who knew I was joking. I could make a joke about them or what they were wearing that day and they knew that I love them and I'm joking, right? That's not okay anymore. You cannot depend on people to understand your intention or even give a shit about your intention. If there's a joke at their expense, you're in trouble. So you don't joke about stuff anymore at anyone else's expense. We don't joke about their background, we don't joke about where they're from or who they anything about their lives. We keep it nice and businesslike and then we just try to do the work. So writer's rooms have become, ultimately for me, a lot less fun and a lot more, I wanna make a joke and I'm like, I can't do it cause I don't want to offend people, but I also don't want to get in trouble.And I think younger people can be offended. I'm, I'm working with some college kids now. I was teaching a class at USC and as a college professor, you have to really be on your, you're, this is not a writer's room, this is a school. But those writing students I'm working with all seem like they're making jokes all the time about all things. So they're more like I was when I was a young person, but I'm not making those jokes because I'm a professor. So I, I'm kind stay out of the realm of anything close to offensive or dirty or strange or anything.Michael Jamin:That's interesting. I didn't, didn't know, butJay Kogen:There's insane, I just wanna make jokes.Michael Jamin:I didn't know you were teaching at usc. How long have you been doing that?Jay Kogen:Half a minute. Oh, I had John Bowman, the writer, John Bowman was a friend of mine and he was teaching a sketch writing class and he unexpectedly died, which is good cuz when you expect to die, allMichael Jamin:Doesn't worse worth.Jay Kogen:So then they asked me to step in to fill, fulfill, fill it, the class that he was teaching. So I started doing that.Michael Jamin:Right. Wow. And I also know you, I didn't, But you're also doing, you do improv.Jay Kogen:Oh yeah, no, I've been doing it for my whole life. I started at the ground when I started in show business, my goal was to not be a writer. My goal was cause writing seemed, I watched my dad writing is lonely, it's quiet, it's intensive. , it seemed hard. I like working with people, I like having jokes, having good times. So I started being an actor and a standup comedian. And then when I was 16 I was, when I was a kid, I was an actor. When I was 16, I was still trying to be an actor and doing standup. And then I transitioned over to the Groundlings, which was a much better atmosphere to be part of than the improv or the comedy store. And I sort of figured out what character and story was based on that. That helped a lot. By the way, I do recommend that if you, you're a writer to take acting courses and take improv courses because you'll learn a shit ton of what you need to know. about being a writer. The other thing you need to do is take editing courses. If you can take a course in editing movies or editing TV shows, you'll learn what's important to keep in your script and what's not important to keep in your script. I didn't know a thing until I started editing.Michael Jamin:Do you have, But anyway, is there any goal, Is there a goal for you for, Are you just getting up there and performing is,Jay Kogen:What do you mean?Michael Jamin:Is there an end to it?Jay Kogen:You want, I'm hoping people throw roses at me. That'sMichael Jamin:My goal. But I don't know. Do you want to turn it into something or do you just enjoy the process of getting up there and performing?Jay Kogen:It's improv is cult a cultish comedy religion. So you do it because you learn the skill. It's like if I was a Glassblower and suddenly I learned how to make little glass animals when I was 16 and I still know how to do it and I like it. So I'm doing improv then the goal is to stay loose, keep your mind fresh. It helps improv helps this to be able to risk. You don't know what's coming. You don't know what you're gonna do. And you commit to a character and you commit to an idea and you take it and see where it goes. It's no different than when you sit down to write a scene and you're about to commit to writing a scene. You might know where it's supposed to go, kind of. But this is what really, when it's time to commit to writing it and there's a blank piece of paper and you have to be the character who says this other thing, then turn your mind to the other character that says this thing and what are they thinking and how are they acting and how are you being, and what does the scene look like and how do you fill the space with physicality and all the things.These are the things that you learn from improv and these are the things I still love doing it because it keeps me fresh and reminds me of that. It's fun to create.Michael Jamin:And how often do you go up?Jay Kogen:The group that I'm working with now go the Transformers. We go up about once a month and then I'm also an improv whore. And I will appear with any other improv group that asks me. Usually the Groundlings has a show called Crazy Uncle Joe and I do that sometimes. Or cooking with gas or sometimes I guess with another group. So it's just fun to work with different people inMichael Jamin:When you do that though, I mean, I know it's improv, but is there any kind of rehearsal with these people? Or are you up there for the first time with these people you don't even know.Jay Kogen:Again, it's something you've learned. You started by taking courses and saying, okay, this is how you do it. You agree , You know, pretend that you're stand up there and pretend that you're a bumblebee. Right. Okay. What would a bumblebee do? Bumblebee might go from flower to flower. A bumblebee might pollinate a, you just put your mind into the thing. So you slowly work up from the beginnings of improv, which is just agreeing. Then you're in a scene with another bumblebee and now you have to figure out what does one bumblebee want and what does the other bumblebee want in the scene. And you're a skill you develop to listen to what other people are saying, agree with it, add information, have an attitude, have a goal, and don't talk over each other and be physicalize the scene. These are things that you learn how to do over time and if you get good at it, you can do it forever.Michael Jamin:Hey, it's Michael Jamin. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not gonna spam you andMichael Jamin:It's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist. All right. So yeah, you were working, you knew , Tom Maxwell, and you're gonna tell that story.Jay Kogen:All right. So yeah, Tom was the runner of director of the Groundlings when I was there, and he had a very distinctive laugh and very distinctive kind of from one of the Carolinas, I forget which one.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I think it was North. Yeah,Jay Kogen:North, I think so Carolina. And he was great audience, a great audience. He loved the laugh, was wonderful to have. And he's the guy I interviewed with to get into the Groundlings to start working at the school. And then I worked starting at 16, I started doing the school and didn't get into the Groundlings until I was 18.Michael Jamin:Oh, interesting. Wow. So you really did the whole training there and that, Wow. Yeah,Jay Kogen:And there was the training we,Michael Jamin:I'm sure it was, I actually took a, So Tom was a writer, I think season three of just shooting me. And then he went up co-running it in the later years. And I remember he came in the first day, This is how important improv is. It's like the first day we're breaking a story and I guess he was just showing off and he just starts acting out the scene and doing all the characters. And I was like, look at this guy. Go. And we were all just staring and the writers says, We're all just staring. And I shoot the writers, I was like, Dude, what are you doing? Type start typing because everything he's saying is going into the script.Jay Kogen:Well, I've seen a lot of writers do that. James Brooks, James L. Brooks is able to do that. Just pitch out a scene from top to bottom. I mean, it's amazing. It's not, it's downgrading it. It's amazing when people can do that. But yeah, when we were at The Simpsons, we would pitch in character, People would pitch as Homer, pitch as Marge. We were , we used the voice and we were that. So it trains you to sort of pitch a joke and risk having everyone hate itMichael Jamin:,Jay Kogen:And by being improv,Michael Jamin:But it's also when you pitch a joke and it bombs, at least then you improv a funny back, a backup to it.Jay Kogen:I guess you can save yourself by acknowledging the bomb or not acknowledging it. It depends on how late its sometimes. Yeah, sometimes there's just silence. . Right, Let's move on, let's go pastMichael Jamin:It. Tom used to get very cranky around 8:00 PM I think is my bed. , you gotta work till midnight or whatever.Jay Kogen:Some people can't do the late nights.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Well so how do you go about, even other than working with these other actors, how do you go about developing shows? Do you have a process? What do you think?Jay Kogen:Well, anything that inspires you, and then you check it out with your people and say, Is there a show like this already in development? Or do we think that we can attach good people to this thing? So have to figure out how to position it. You have an idea then how do you position it? Who's it for? Can you create auspices to join forces with you to make it a more powerful sale? When's the right time to sell it? All those kind of things go into the mix of that kind of stuff.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And so what do you usually try to team up with a producer? Is that what you, I mean?Jay Kogen:Right. This Oversharing project is now with Sharon Hogan's company called Merman Mer. So, so they, especially women's stories. And this is a women's story and it's like it's a good company when you're dealing with the story of women in their late twenties in the sort of dismal landscape of what life is like for them.Michael Jamin:. Right. That's so interesting. Yeah. And so, what was I gonna say about that?Jay Kogen:I have a show that I'm writing with that I'm helping some newer African American writers with, and we're trying to get Kenya Barris to sign on to be part of this thing. So he's a good auspices for that. And then I have a show about Jewish boys from Encino and Mel Brooks would No jokingMichael Jamin:About it. Nope, that'd be great. Yeah, I worked with them. I worked with them on Glen Martin. You brought 'em in. I damn, I'm directing Mel Brooks. It was very intimidating.Jay Kogen:Now Mel Mels not intimidating, he just won't shut up. But ,Michael Jamin:It was still like, I'm telling him directions. Who might be telling Mel Brooks how to play the line? Well,Jay Kogen:If he didn't like, like your directions, he'd tell youMichael Jamin:,Jay Kogen:Yeah, I don't wanna do it. I'm gonna walk over here. Gonna,Michael Jamin:Yeah, there was definitely the case. I remember I like telling him, ask him to get him again. And he goes, No, no, you got it the first time. I'm like, Sounds good to me. .Jay Kogen:We worked with him on the Tracy Oman show and he had a million ideas about what he wanted his character to do and we was just like, Okay, go for it.Michael Jamin: Mel Brooks. Wow. Well, so wait, I had a thought, butJay Kogen:To go back to your original question, how do you develop something? Call Reiner the great Carl Reiner speaking. Bob Brooks gave me advice and he said, Figure out the hill. You're standing on that only the vantage point that only you have and make a show about that. So interesting. Make it about your world or your point of view or your, something that's really on your mind that only you can see. And that was his advice. And I thought that was good advice.Michael Jamin:And we hear that a lot. It's like, why are you the only people to write this show? And then you gotta think of a reason.Jay Kogen:You have to lie and say, Well , this happened to me or this is my thing. But obviously when you're a writer, you're bringing something that's personal to you. It doesn't have to experienced the thing to have experienced the emotion that the thing is connected to. Sometimes the show is about love or sometimes the show is about abandonment or sometimes the show is about lack of credibility or the show is about ego and the specifics of the show are not necessarily the specifics of your life, but that's something that you're very aware of and something that's meaningful to you. And if it's meaningful to you, then it's gonna have a resonance that's gonna count. And that's what I try to do when I write something. It's because I relate to it and I feel it and I feel like there's a truth in it. Right.Michael Jamin:These are all good words. And how did you, let's say a show, the remake for Punky Brewster, how did you get involved in that? I'm always wondering how thatJay Kogen:Happens. My friends, Steve and Jim Armita had created it and produced it and I'd worked with them on a show called School of Rock and they hired me to help them. I mean that was it a friend a I not, I didn't know anything about punk. Brewster hadn't watched it. Oh, I didn't, no know much about it, but I got to know about it. And so then we tried to make, it had been the development for many, many years. Universal was trying to use their own properties and make something of it. And so that's what happened. It sort of came together over the course of five years.Michael Jamin:Wow. See it takes how long it takes.Jay Kogen:Yeah.Michael Jamin:And now people, I get this question a lot. I don't know if you have a good answer for it, but do you have a preference to do single camera, multi camera animation?Jay Kogen:Well, I think it's harder to sell a single camera show. Everybody wants to buy. Every network says they wanna buy a single camera show, but then they don't always buy mean, excuse me, Every network wants to buy, say they wanna buy a multi camera show because it's cheaper, but they always wind up buying single camera shows because they're cooler. And so I'd rather sell the show that gets made. And so right now I'm interested in selling single camera shows. However, I love Multicam. I do like the process, I know it. But I watch many Multicam shows going like, Oh that's great. Tv I think the single camera shows are better cuz they're more like movies. You don't have to lean on jokes quite so much. It's more about the story. If you tell the filmically there's no laugh track. So it's just funny is, and it's different experience. I don't know you when the Multicam, if it will ever pop back as a main force. But it's, seeMichael Jamin:It'd be nice. Now you, I didn't look, Have you done any direction directing?Jay Kogen:Oh yeah, I love directing.Michael Jamin:Oh you do?Jay Kogen:Okay. It, I would give it up to just directMichael Jamin:Really What You like it that much. A lot of guys, guys haven't given up to. Why do you like that more than writing?Jay Kogen:It's collaborative. I'm not alone in a room, I'm given, I have material sometimes I've written the material so I know the intention. But I like working with cameras. I like working with the actors. I'm an actor, I'm an old actor. So I like acting and I like actors and I like working with them and figuring out the big picture and figuring out, making sure that all the pieces in the editing room are there. Having edited many shows now, knowing, okay, we need this reaction and that reaction and we get, this is the joke, this joke needs to be close or this joke needs to be wide or let's have a choice. Those kind of things are great. And when I've directed film, single camera, film action things, they've been great. I love using the camera, I love using stunts, I love using and anything that I can envision. I love storyboarding stuff and making them happen.Michael Jamin:Who do you feel you've learned the most from? What directors have taught you the most?Jay Kogen:Hitchcock, I mean,Michael Jamin:. Sit. Come guys. I hate say,Jay Kogen:I mean they're all great. I've learned from every single director we've worked from, I've been lucky enough to work with Jim Burrows and I've been lucky enough to work with,I mean there's Victor Gonzalez and I've been working just all these directors who know what they're doing. A guy named Jonathan Judge who I work with , who'd really just knows what he's doing. He knows the feeling, he knows how to keep the set alive and people happy. And there's a lot to do when you're director and what and when you're TV director, you're really trying to fulfill the vision of the producers , which is great. And when I direct even on shows that I've executive producing, I'm asking my other writers, Do I have it? Are you good? Are we satisfied? I'm not just saying I got it and I want everybody's opinion. I want to change things if people don't have it. Cause we are only here on the set this moment. I wanna get everything we need to get. And I like being collaborative and I like hearing notes. Unlike when I'm a writer, when I don't want to hear notes. As a director, I love hearing notes. Interesting. I love adjusting. Can we get that? Yes, absolutely. Let's go for it.Michael Jamin:That's so funny you say that. Yeah. Writers writers don't like hearing that. Don't the same way. I don't want to hear your notes hard.Jay Kogen:I thought about it maybe the thing that I liked and now you don't know whether it's gonna work and neither do why, but let's go with my way. Yeah, that's the general feeling.Michael Jamin:And how do you mostly handle Jesus studio notes or network note. And when you turn in a draft from a pilot or whatever, what's your first instinct?Jay Kogen:My first instinct is to tell them to fuck off. I hope that instinct . And instead I say, Well that's a good note. Or I put them into three piles, Notes that are good notes and sometimes I get really good notes. Notes that are neutral notes that are just like, you want to go that way versus this way. And they're kind of the same but alright. And notes that are show ruining. So the only notes I will fight about are the show ruining notes,Michael Jamin:,Jay Kogen:Everything else. I will say thank you and what a great idea and I really appreciate it and I will, cause I wanna be collaborative and I wanna take it, if they think a green couch is better than a blue couch, then if we can get a green couch, let's get a green couch. Yeah, that's fine. WeMichael Jamin:Call those lateral notes. This note will move the script three feet to the right. It's gonna take, I'm be up all night doing it and alright, I'll do it.Jay Kogen:Just do it because they need it and they want it. And it doesn't hurt the show. The ones that hurt the show. You gotta say, now I don't tell me about that. Because I think that thread that you're pulling ruins the show. And so let's talk about the thing about it. If it's a story about somebody adopting a dog and then the dog ruins their life and they say something along the lines of, But maybe the dog is nice. And you go like, Well if the dog is nice, then there's no show because then we don't have the conflict that's at the core of this particular thing. So we're just throwing out the whole show based than that and this, Well, why do you want the dog nicer? Well it's too mean in this thing. So we can then distill moments where they think, okay, it's not having fun watching the dog X, Y, and Z. Let's change those things to be things that are more fun for the executives or other people to watch. Then we can save the show but not do the show ruining note.Michael Jamin:Right? Because often you'll get notes from people who don't have much experience in the business and they just have this job, they're giving you notes and you don't want to hurt their feelings, but they don't know how to do it yet. So it's a delicate dance.Jay Kogen:And also they're not idiots people, the network executives, every writer likes to think a network executive, they're all idiots have decided to do this other thing. But they could have been writers and they might have been writers in another life and have, the reason they went into it is because they like TV and they like stories and they have an opinion. So embrace them as your partnersMichael Jamin:That'sJay Kogen:Try to make them your partner so that you have a happier existence with everyone.Michael Jamin:We both work with Steve Bald Ows and I was surprised to learn that he was an executive for many years. I was like, What? I felt like you've been a SP these years.Jay Kogen:I didn't know that, but I'm not shocked he has. You didn't know that leader of an executive? No, didn't he? I would a hundred percent believe him in a nice sweater coming in work as an executive. Great.Michael Jamin:Yeah, I get that. I was shocked. But he told me he thought it was his opinion that all executives really just wanted to be writers.Jay Kogen:I think he's right that all they do. And when they give notes, they're saying, What if this is a great idea? They're hoping that you receive their note. It's like, oh that's what a great idea. Thank you for helping me write the show. And so I actually try to receive those notes that way as much as I can.Michael Jamin:It's kind of like you also building an ally. It's like the more people you can have think it's their show, then they're gonna help put it on the air and stuffJay Kogen:But not think it's their show. It is their show. They're the people who are shepherding it through the network. They're the people every, it is their show. It's not like it's not us and them, we are them, they're the same people. We have to be a team in order to survive how it's such a weird ass landscape of getting a show on the air and having anybody know it exists and having people see it. So you have to get them their publicity people involved and the network has to like it and put it in a good time slot and care about it. And it's so easy to get lost. You have to take care of your show. You have to really do a good job of bringing it through and get as many allies as you can.Michael Jamin:And how do you recommend young writers basically break in now? I mean, cuz the landscape is so different now. What do you tell people?Jay Kogen:It's the same. Write something great, keep writing something until it's great, then show that thing to everybody you can. It hasn't changed. Nobody wants to be a salesman when they become a writer, but unfortunately part of being a writer is being a salesman. And so you have to then suck it up and make call people and in a friendly way and get them to read your script. Obviously you call and say, I love your work and will you do me this favor of reading my script? And I would love your notes. Nobody wants your notes. They only want you to say it's the greatest thing in the world and I love you and I wanna hire you. But show your script. Sometimes you'll get notes and sometimes you'll get compliments and sometimes you'll say, this is terrible. And then start again and you know, have to really work hard to get through it. Plus meeting people and expanding your social circle is really important. So fighting a way to join groups and be part of schools or be part, not schools exactly, but be part of communities, professional groups and communities and find your way to expand that way.Michael Jamin:So you told people basically to come out to Hollywood too?Jay Kogen:Yeah, I mean I don't know how you're gonna do that from Des Moines. I meanMichael Jamin:H is not coming to you.Jay Kogen:Although if you live in Atlanta, if you live in places where they're making TV shows, it's possible.Michael Jamin:But they're still mostly doing the writing out here, aren't they? AndJay Kogen:Yeah, but there are lots of production, lots of people. And you can meet people and I don't know, it depends on where you're at. It's, there's a few places where production, you know, can live in New York City. You can live in Atlanta, you might be able to, Toronto and Vancouver. There are places where a lot of shows are being made, so maybe there, but LA is still the place to come, even though it's not, it's hard place to move to. It's expensive and weird and isolating and there's a lot of big parts about it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, so interesting. So great to get your take cuz I don't know, you're kind of saying so many things that I've said, but it's good to hear different.Jay Kogen:Isn't it great to hear somebody confirm all your ideas?Michael Jamin:I'm not crazy.Jay Kogen:Everything you've ever believed.Michael Jamin:Well, I have such strong opinions on when I talking to people and I'm like, wow, I could just be stubborn, but this is how I see it. But yeah, it's interesting to hearJay Kogen:You. But I mean it is new and you know, gotta write something new. And if you can get attention to something, if you can put up a show or make a , find a way to get attention to your project, to YouTube, short films, Make something on the TikTok and find out a way to be available and get your stuff out there, then you have a shot. But it's hard. It's hard. I mean it's hard once you have a show on the air, you're your old boss. Levitan has a show called Reboot that's on Hulu, I think. Yeah, I don't know who watches it because who knows It exists. It's probably, you have great cast and an esteemed writing team making it and it will come and it, unless people hear about it, nobody will know.Michael Jamin:Yeah. And one thing I also wanna stress for new writers is like, we're struggling too. We're hustling too. None of it's easy. None of it's guaranteed. It's working it to, I always say you gotta work to break in. Well, but it's too hard. Yeah, don't tell me it's too hard. I know I do it everything.Jay Kogen:It is a struggle. And you sort of want gigs coming, possible gigs come and then they go and then they don't happen. And it's hard to get in the rooms and it's all that kinda stuff. And when you're running a show, which I recently, I had a show that I was getting a writing staff for. I had a million phone calls from a million people saying, Hey, you got room. And I had to tell a million of them no. Right. Great people, really great people that I had to say no to because, And so when they say no to me, I understand why it's not the makeup of the room that that's going to make the studio happy. They have to make up a room that's going to make the studio happy. And there's only a limited amount of spaces for people like me. And that's a lot of us who need jobs. So it's an interesting time for that.Michael Jamin:So is there anything else? Is there, we can plug you. How can people follow you? I'm so grateful that you did this talk. I'm so interesting.Jay Kogen:My plug Jake Hogan at Twitter and Jake Hogan at Facebook and Jake Hogan at Instagram. And I have a TikTok account, but I don't post anything there.Michael Jamin:You don't know how to use it.Jay Kogen:I don't know how to use it and I'm not interested in making Little, Little,Michael Jamin:I think you should doJay Kogen:It. I did a dance.Michael Jamin:I think you should do it. Yeah. Get on a trending soundingJay Kogen:Right. But I do, every Friday we do something on my Twitter feed called Philosophy Friday. So on Fridays around four 30, I have a bunch of people we use. IMichael Jamin:Gotta follow you on that. I didn't know that. What's about,Jay Kogen:Well, we just talk about the life and love and fear and how to overcome the difficulties of the world. Usually I post a question for the week and we can talk about that, but people can also come and just talk about their problems. Now Twitter is famously the most vicious and horrible of all the social media. So my idea was why can't we have a little window of people who are actually nice to each other and care about each other and try to help each other on this platform of shit. And so that's what I've done and I've almost three years into this and know that it's been fun.Michael Jamin:Wow. Alright, so some people can get in touch with you. That's that's really cool. I got, now I'm gonna be following you on that.Jay Kogen:Interesting. And then if you follow me on my social medias, you can see my improv shows when I do them. And yep. You can also follow all your followers. Should listen to Charlie Cogan, who's my son, who's a musician and he just released a new record and I want everybody to hear it on for sure. Or Apple Music or Amazon or wherever it is. Charlie Cogan, K O G E N.Michael Jamin:Excellent.Jay Kogen:Jake, Not Jake Ogan. It's Jake Cogan and it's Charlie Cogan. SoMichael Jamin:Yeah. I'm glad you cleared that up by cause I was too embarrassed to ask. And what kind of music does he do?Jay Kogen:It's mostly Zither music. And what is that? It's just pop, Pop Zither is a terrible, strange instrument. No, it's just pop music. It's really great pop music. I don't know if you like, Do you like Ed Sherin? Interesting. Something like that, butMichael Jamin:Not, And so he doesn't wanna go into comedy Ready?Jay Kogen:He might, He's really fun. He might and worked on stuff together. But he's really talented musician and he's sort of honed his skills as a music songwriter, singer, music producer. And those are, he's ready to go on that level. He's not good for him ready to go as a comedy writer yet, but he could. Right. Wow. He's college right now. He's studying, so we don't really his sing, his singles come out intermittently, but he's while he is at college.Michael Jamin:Oh good. Well let's make him happen. Go listen to him on Spotify.Jay Kogen:Charlie Cogan. Yeah.Michael Jamin:Yeah. Jay, thank you again so much. This is good for me to hear. I dunno if anybody else heard it, butJay Kogen:It was great to hang with you. I'd heard a lot about you and I've seen your videos on the Thes and the weird Instagrams, and that's been amazing. How do you, did you decide to do that stuffMichael Jamin:After we get off the air, but basically I was telling my manager, I had a call him the other day and I was telling him what I was doing. He goes on TikTok, he goes, Oh, I know people forward me your videos, . They go, Have you heard of this guy? I was like, Yeah, my client . But yeah,Jay Kogen:It's interesting and I think it provides a valuable service, but it seems like it would be a little bit of a time suck, but also just there's value on the other side of it.Michael Jamin:Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll talk more about it. But thank you so much. Everyone. Go follow Jake Hogan and his sonJay Kogen:And ask me questions. You can reach me at any of these places and I'll answer your questions for free, just like Michael does. How do you like that? What Michael does that I'm gonna start and I'll agree with him on everything he says.Michael Jamin:, please. I need it. All right. Done Next time. Thank you so much. And oh yeah, Thank you so much.Phil Hudson:This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin. If you'd like to support this podcast, please consider subscribing, leaving your review and sharing this podcast with someone who needs to hear today's subject. For free daily screenwriting tips, follow Michael on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @PhilAHudson. This episode was produced by Phil Hudson and edited by Dallas Crane. Until next time, keep writing.

A wideranging convo with Sunil covering the future of React, the Third Age of JavaScript, and the Meta of online discourse.Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3h1WICelqsFollow Sunil: https://twitter.com/threepointoneChapters: [00:01:40] React and Temporal, Declarative vs Imperative My Temporal Explainer: https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1417165270641045505 https://www.solidjs.com/  [00:12:57] State Charts and Lucylang https://lucylang.org/ XState and Stately https://stately.ai/viz [00:17:08] The Future of React [00:25:03] React Streaming Server Rendering vs SSR/JAMstack/DSG/DPR/ISR ReactDOMServer.renderToNodeStream() Sunil's Slides: https://www.icloud.com/keynote/0MyOJkDIOVfFit76PqJFLvPVg#react-advanced https://react-lazy.coolcomputerclub.com/  [00:33:13] Next.js and the Open Source Commons [00:38:46] The Third Age of JavaScript Third Age of JS  Benedict Evans (not Sinofsky) on Word Processors: https://www.ben-evans.com/benedictevans/2020/12/21/google-bundling-and-kill-zones [00:45:16] ESbuild vs SWC vs BunBun (Jarred Sumner) https://twitter.com/jarredsumner/status/1390084458724741121  [00:50:46] Let Non-X Do X: Figma vs Canva, Webflow vs Wix/Squarespace Canva vs Figma valuations https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1438102616156917767 [00:52:42] JavaScript Twitter and Notion's 9mb Marketing Site Notion 9mb JS Site Tweet mrmrs' Components.ai [01:06:33] React Server Components and Shopify Hydrogen/Oxygen https://twitter.com/swyx/status/1410103013885108229  [01:09:18] Categorical Imperatives of Web Platforms: Cloudflare vs AWS, MongoDB vs Auth0, Gatsby vs Netlify https://auth0.com/blog/introducing-auth0-actions/  [01:18:34] Wrap-up  Transcript [00:01:40] React and Temporal, Declarative vs Imperative  [00:01:40] swyx: Okay. So the first topic we want to talk about is React and Temporal, right?  [00:01:43] Sunil Pai: I feel Temporal is introducing a shift into the workflow ecosystem, which is very similar to the one that React introduced to the JavaScript framework system.  [00:01:54] swyx: That's the hope. I don't know if like my explanation of Temporal has reached everybody or has reached you. There are three core opinions, right? The first is that whenever you cross system boundaries, when you call it external API. So when you call internal microservices, there's a chance of failure and that multiplies, the more complex the system gets. [00:02:11] So you need a central orchestrator that holds all the retry states and logic, as well as timers And it tracks all the events and is able to resume from it from failure.  [00:02:21] Second opinion that you should have is you should do event sourcing rather than try to just write your business logic and then instrument with observability logs after the fact you should have your logs as the source of truth. And if it's not in the log, it did not happen.  [00:02:34] And then the final piece is the workflows as code, which is the one that you're focusing on, which is the programming model, in the sense that like all the other competitive workflow engines, like, Amazon step functions, Apache airflow, Dagster, like there's a bunch in this category. [00:02:48] They're all sort of JSON and YML DSLs, and the bind that you find yourself in is that basically you're reinventing a general purpose programming language inside of these JSON and YML DSLs because you find a need for loops, branching, variables functions, all the basic stuff. And, people find that like at the end of the day, all this tooling is available, you just have to make it run in inside of a general purpose programming language. So that's what Temporal offers.  [00:03:12] But it's very interesting because it kind of straddles the imperative versus declarative debate, right? [00:03:17] React, people view as declarative. And I think it's mostly declarative, like there's imperative escape hatches, and because it's declarative, people can have a single sort of render model of their entire app for the entire tree. And I think it makes sense to them. [00:03:32] And you're saying that that's better, right? That's better than the imperative predecessor of like jQuery and randomly hooking up stuff and not having things tied up together. You sounded like you want it to  [00:03:42] Sunil Pai: interrupt. So it's actually two things. One is the jQuery had an imperative API, and then they went way too hard into the declarative side with templating languages and then started reinventing stuff there. [00:03:54] So really react was like, no, you need access to an imperative language to create, you need a fully featured programming language to generate description trees like Dom trees or in this case, a workflow graphs.  [00:04:10] swyx: Got it. So it's kind of like a halfway solution, maybe, maybe anyway. So the problem with us is that we're trying to say that imperative is better than declarative, for the purposes of expressing general purpose business logic, which is an interesting sell for me because in all other respects, I'm very used to arguing to declarative is better. [00:04:33] Then there's also an idea that people should build declarative layers on top of us. And I, it's just a very interesting, like back and forth between declarative and imperative that I don't know where I really stands apart from like, wherever we are is never good enough. So we need to add another layer to solve the current problems  [00:04:51] Sunil Pai: there. [00:04:51] So there's a phrase for it and I forget what it's called the mechanism. It says that, uh, the system that allows you to execute stuff should not be the same system that prevents you from doing bad things. So there's a core, which is basically a fully featured API. And then you put guard rails around like the experiences. [00:05:12] For example, as an example, this is like adding TypeScript on top of JavaScript, let's say, unlike reason ML, let's say like, OCAML or a lot of very strongly type a language where if your code doesn't compile, you can't really run the code in TypeScript. There are times when you're like, you know what? [00:05:29] I need an escape hatch to actually like, do something like really funky here, X, Y, and Z, that that's not even well expressed in either the type system or sometimes even the language itself. You need to like hack it. And like, you might even email a couple of things. Uh, and in react, this was, I think when react came. [00:05:47] It wasn't just that it was a, oh, like there's JSX. It was very much, uh, okay. Uh, I have a lot of existing code, so I can add, React to one part of it and then hook onto the DOM, it renders and then have like this whole jQuery widget that I would like render onto the thing. Uh, so it gave you this whole incremental part to adopting the system, but then like after a point, like react consumes all of it. [00:06:11] And the fuck up with react is if you go too hard into react, doing stuff like animations is like impossible, which is why like we are at least a year or two away from a good animation API in React, or while you use, Framer or whatever Framer has become right now. Like frame of  [00:06:27] swyx: motion. No. Um,  [00:06:31] Sunil Pai: Yeah, but he's working. [00:06:32] I think Matt is now working on like a new, new thing. That's got a really funky name. Like, it sounds like a robot or something. All right. But it was curious to me that React's biggest deal was that, Hey, like, They talk about it being declarative, but a whole lot of things you wrote were like in regular-ass JavaScript, you would say on click and get an event and start doing things  [00:06:53] swyx: beautiful. [00:06:54] It's a perfect blend.  [00:06:56] Sunil Pai: Right. And you would suffer with this in. So there was the jQuery prototype phase, which was like directly imperative. And then they went hard in the other direction with type templating languages, like Jade and dust. And, uh, there were a number of popular ones at the time. And that's when like even Angular 1 became super popular because they're like, here's the whole kit and caboodle full whole framework. [00:07:18] And then React came and said, oh, well just the view. But that's because they didn't want to release like really yet. And they were like, yeah, this is all you need and the whole ecosystem. But anyway, so in temporal temporal for me is particularly interesting for that because it is now clearly making that. [00:07:35] I hate the phrase, but it's a good one. The paradigm shift of like how you start thinking about these systems and you just write some fucking code and then like you start adding on bits and guardrails for the things you want to do, which is on for the few hours I spent going through the docs and failing to get it running on my laptop. [00:07:53] That's my understanding of it. Feel free to correct me.  [00:07:56] swyx: Okay. Yeah. And I think you're right, actually, I'll try this messaging on you because, it's something that we're consciously designing for. In fact, I have a, one of my API proposals was, reacts like API for tempo. And so essentially what we enable you to do is bundle up each individual service or job into a component that we happen to call workflow. [00:08:21] And my struggle here is that I currently tie component to workflow because what is the component like? It's, it's something that's self-contained that is a deterministic. Like it has a strict rule of execution from top to bottom, right. It just does the same thing every single time, uh, where we differ and why I struggle with this is because we put all the side effects into things that we call activities. [00:08:44] That's where all the non-deterministic stuff goes. And that one gets retried, basically at Temporal's will and essentially Temporal is serving as the central runtime or framework that has knowledge of all these workflows and activities. And can re-render them based on its internal rules, I retries timeouts, uh, heartbeats, all that good stuff. So I struggled with things like, which is the component and which is the hook or the effect.  [00:09:08] And then there's other concepts. So, uh, we have ways to send signals into individual workflows, right? That's a very important property of the system that you can send data in while it's running and you can get data out while it's running. I'm not sure that's reflected in React at all. So maybe I'm stretching the analogy too much,  [00:09:24] Sunil Pai: Solid, had an answer for that the word signal. So like solid JS. This is by Ryan Carniato the Marco folks, signals are a first-class concept in the framework. Again, I haven't dived into it in detail in a while, but it feels like an important thing. And I always wondered why React actually didn't have it because props are something that you just like pass. [00:09:46] Right. And it's just a value, like if you like plot it on a graph, for example, it's, let's say if you had to have like a graph of binary values, it would be either zero or like one, and that would be the shape of the graph, but signals are something that can be like something that happens and yeah, just pops up and goes down, like pressing a key on the keyboard. [00:10:06] And that's actually not so easy to define in a, in a react like system, like, uh, which is why it's kind of hard to build like audio processing graphs with like React or JSX. Um, I don't have like a good answer. I'd probably have to like hack on Temporal a little more, but the idea of like signals as a channel, through which you can like send information and having it as a first class part of the system is something that's not represented well in well, in React at least. [00:10:33] Yeah. Well,  [00:10:34] swyx: isn't that in an action? For reducers  [00:10:38] Sunil Pai: and event effectively. Yes. Like it's basically one of those actions.  [00:10:42] swyx: The problem is that everything just ties right into the component tree instead of just having the component B and sort of isolated unit that can function independently.  [00:10:50] Sunil Pai: That's the other thing, which is a workflow engine isn't a directed acyclic graph. In fact, it could have cycles, it could have cycles and it could have a number of other things, which is the  [00:11:00] swyx: beautiful thing, by the way.  [00:11:02] For us coding, a subscription platform literally is charged Stripe sleeps 30 days, charged Stripe again, and then infinite loop until you cancel and then you break out of the loop. [00:11:13] That's it.  [00:11:13] Sunil Pai: That's awesome by the way. So I was actually thinking that someone's going to implement not someone's going to implement, uh, someone's going to use Redux saga on top of Temporal, that's what I was thinking, because then you will have generators that define like long running processes that are just talking to each other. [00:11:30] I think that would be good. CloudFlare also loved Temporal, by the way, like we were talking about it, like for awhile, they're like, oh, this is like fundamentally a new thing. And as you can imagine, some engineers were like, well, why isn't this running on workers? I'm like, I don't know why isn't it running on workers? [00:11:43] Like maybe we should get it there. [00:11:45] swyx: It is fairly heavy duty right now. We're trying to reduce that to a single binary, which could maybe run a workers. I'm not sure about the memory requirements that you guys have. It could, it's just not a priority for us based on our existing users.  [00:12:00] Sunil Pai: Um, I was just, I was saying what they're saying. [00:12:04] They want everything to run on workers and I'm like, dude, it's just like one small, weird isolated like condo.  [00:12:10] swyx: Ironically we also using V8 isolates for our TypeScript runtime. And that's just to make sure that people don't do non-deterministic stuff. So we did mock out everything, which is also pretty cool because whenever you use a library with, like setTimeout inside of that library, that persists to us as well. [00:12:25] So we set the durable timer. Your system can go down and we, we bring it back up and you're using our timer, not the JavaScript runtime timer, which is like just awesome. There's a trade off to that, which is, things don't work when you import them, like you would in a normal, Node.js project. [00:12:39] So most of, because you have to inject them into the environment of the V8 Isolate, you can't just randomly import stuff that as freely as you would in a normal node environment. So dependency injection and becomes a topic for us. [00:12:57] State Charts and Lucylang  [00:12:57] swyx: Um, yeah. We actually clashed a little bit with David Khourshid because David is on this warpath of like everything in a state machine, right. Everything in the time-tested 40 year old JSON format that describes state machines. And we actually thought we were going to be competitive with him for a while because for him, the thing about writing imperative code is that it's prone to bugs, right? Like you can not really see the full, possibly the full span of like all the possible states that you're exposing, but in a state machine everything's explicit so he was butting heads with our founder for awhile. [00:13:31] But I think recently he decided that he is better at building on top of us than trying to compete with us on the reliability front. So that's, that's kind of an interesting evolution that has happened over the past year on this topic of declarative versus imperative. [00:13:44] I'm still like coming to terms with it. Like I'm not fully okay with it yet, but, it clearly is more expressive and that's something I am Very in favor of, and I have genuinely looked at like the workflow solution from Google, the workflow solution from Amazon, and they are literally have you write the abstract syntax tree by hand in JSON and that's just absolutely no way that that's going to work. So I'm pretty down with the imperative approach for now.  [00:14:09] Sunil Pai: Well, that's, I figured at some point you will run XState on it and extent should work fairly well. I think contemporary, I don't see why it would. I think that that would actually,  [00:14:19] swyx: Honestly, I'm not really sure what he's going to charge for. He's pushing the idea of state machines and making it more of a commonly accepted thing. [00:14:26] Sunil Pai: Well, his pitch isn't even state machines. It's very specifically state charts and I love state charts. I even bought the book by the way, the Ian Horrocks $700. So when I got it on Amazon, it was $180. I was like, cheap. Let's do it. I got really lucky at the time. It, it fluctuates like mad by the way that that value, well, you should expense it now is what it is. [00:14:46] Um, but, uh, what struck me about the thing? Here's what I tried. I really liked it. And I took a course, a couple of steps back and I was trying to understand, well, why isn't it like a success? Why don't people get into it? And the truth is that this falls not just into the intersection of this is the intersection of like computers and humans in the sense that sure. [00:15:07] There are things that can be correct, but there are things that can be expressible as well. Like I don't even know what code I want to write when I'm sitting down to write it. I love to like discover it while I'm writing it and really. All the syntax that we have created and abstractions, we have created around programming languages have been purely to express these things and have let's call it implicit state machines, even though that implies that it's bad. [00:15:32] Um, so for example, if you look at state charts, there's no real good way to compose two state charts together. You have to like manually start wiring them together. And like, there's, you know, like you've got in react, you say, oh, combo, if you have two components to put it together, you put like a little, uh, function around it. [00:15:49] And now it's two components in one component. So it's important not just to have a good unit of computation, but to have it like be composable with each other so that you can gather it and then make this whole nesting doll react, Dom tree of things. And I think. Until there's an actual language that supports that has state charts as a first class primitive, much like Lucy, I think that's what Matthew Phillips built. [00:16:15] He wrote a, he wrote an actual language that compares to state charts called Lucy Lang. That was very cool by the way. Like, I really like it. Uh, well, and it's fairly young, so it's too early to say whether people like love it or not. And other than, but people like you and me who look at something like, wow, this is awesome. [00:16:33] Let's all use it. No, like to take a while to grow. But I think that's the state charts has a bit of dissonance with the languages that it's written in right now, because it's not a first-class thing. I mean, it's adjacent object with keys and. Okay. Like we can do better maybe. Uh, but I would not bet against David and the people he's hiring. [00:16:53] Like he's hurting some smart people, you know, they're all like pretty intelligent. So I'm curious to see how that plays out.  [00:17:00] swyx: I'm just glad that we're not competing. Uh, so that's, that's something that, that, that resolved itself without any intervention from me, which is very good. [00:17:08] The Future of React  [00:17:08] swyx: Well, let's have this conversation since it's related, should React to be more of a DSL,  [00:17:14] you know, this conversation that happened over this week, so I'll pull it up. [00:17:20] Sunil Pai: Uh, wait, so I've, I'm seeing, is this the whole Svelte versus React thing that's been happening over the last two, three days?  [00:17:25] swyx: Yes. So basically it's saying React is already so far down almost like its own language. [00:17:30] They should just embrace it more. And instead of using linting to catch rule violations, just make a DSL, people are gonna use it. It's fine. And just like build things in so that it's impossible to make these errors that, that people commonly make.  [00:17:47] Sunil Pai: So this is Mike Sherov, uh, he was smoking about it. [00:17:51] He mentioned how it shouldn't be a lint rule. And since we already have customs, insects and GSX, he should introduce a couple of other things. So as you can imagine, the react team has thought about this a lot. So the big problem with this all boils down to that fucking dependency area on use effect, by the way, that's the one that trips, everything else is fine. [00:18:09] Like you stayed all that is like fine. You can get. This is  [00:18:13] swyx: what it was. Yeah. People want like state something memos and things like, you know, just build the reactor primitives into the language.  [00:18:22] Sunil Pai: So yeah, I think this, this actually, isn't a bad idea and I think that was the whole deal with hooks. Whereas what's the phrase that they use in the docks. [00:18:30] A sufficiently advanced compiler might comply with these things at some point, and you're like, oh wow, great job. On pushing that responsibility onto the community, React team, well done.  [00:18:41] swyx: My joke is like it's the react teams equivalent of a assume, a frictionless spherical cow from physics.  [00:18:48] Sunil Pai: Exactly. [00:18:48] That's a perfectly spherical code. [00:18:54] swyx: It will exist.  [00:18:57] Sunil Pai: And it's just the five of them or six of six of them hacking on this. And they have to make sure they don't break like facebook.com whenever they're working on these things. Imagine it's taken this long for Concurrent to show up and Concurrent is nice by the way. And we can talk about the server rendering API. [00:19:14] Okay. Uh, so react right now is, uh, yeah, that's the one like that. It shouldn't just be an intruder, but, uh, inside the inside Facebook only, well, not everybody can see it, but it's an in an internal, uh, uh, Facebook Wiki page, which is a list of potential F projects. You know, how the react team has fiber, whatever the hell. [00:19:47] Right? So there's a list of these projects that, or when we do this, uh, project F F I forget what the one for, uh, uh, animation that's called, is it called flat? Flat was the dumb one. And so there are lists of them and there are about 15, 20. I'm pretty sure my India has done. So Hey, so, uh, there's a list of them. [00:20:09] And if you look at them and you start assigning values in terms of work, oh, this is about six months of work. This is about, uh, another six months of work. It strikes you that there's a roadmap for about five to 10 years. At least if not more than that, I mean, look at how long it took to get like this. Of course this was very more foundational. [00:20:26] Those could probably happen a little quicker when it comes, which means the react team is like solely aware of what's missing in react right now. And to an extent that they can talk about it because if they do it becomes like a whole thing and like don't really engage in that conversation. They don't, I, I, and I don't blame them for it. [00:20:44] It's very hard to have this discourse without somebody coming in and saying, well, have you considered CSS transitions? I like that. Yes, we have. We have, we have considered CSS a lot. Uh, so, uh, so. There are all these projects like a sufficiently advanced compiler that compiles down to hooks. There's the animation API. [00:21:04] There's a welcome current, et cetera. This whole data fetching thing has been going on for years. And now it's finally starting to come to light, thankfully with collaboration, with the relay team and effectively all of the core when they built out facebook.com and, and that is the length that those are the time periods that Sebastian looks at and says, yeah, this is how we can execute on this because it can be prioritized. [00:21:33] It has to be prioritized by either Facebook wanting it or making Facebook wanted. So for example, the pitch was, Hey, let's rewrite facebook.com the desktop version because they haven't, it's a film mishmash of like hundreds of react routes on one page. It should be a single react route that does this thing. [00:21:52] Now that we have gotten management to agree to a rewrite, let us now attach it to the concurrent mode thing. And that was also part of it, which is in the older version, there was a lot of CPU fighting that used to happen between routes, which is why the whole work for the share dealers started and took like two years to like fix effectively. [00:22:08] They're doing cooperative, multitasking VM in JavaScript, which sure. When you're a Facebook, I guess you've got to like do these things. Uh, and how does that all,  [00:22:18] swyx: was that ever offloaded to the browsers, by the way? Like I know there was an effort to split it out of react.  [00:22:24] Sunil Pai: So I think last, I checked they were talking to Chrome literally every week. [00:22:29] Uh, but I think it's also been down to, uh, well, what Chrome wants to prioritize at the time. I think it is still going ahead again. It's the sort of work that takes years, so it's not going ahead. Nice and slowly, uh, which is why. Which is why it's architected inside react for the same reason as like it's attached to global and then read off the global. [00:22:52] I think it's also why you can't have two versions of React on the same page. There's the whole hooks thing. But also if you have two versions of React, and they'll just start fighting with each other on the scheduler, because the scheduler would yield to one than to the other than to the other one. [00:23:08] And there would be no like central thing that controls what is on the scheduling pipeline. That's from the last, again, this conversation is at least two years, or maybe they fixed that, but that's the goal of the dealer. There has to be one scheduler for the thread that everybody comes on to, and like tries to pull stuff, uh, with it. [00:23:26] I think it will become a browser API. It's just a question of like, when, like, yeah, I mean, the shared dealer in react itself has undergone so much change over the last three years. Uh, so maybe we should be glad that it isn't in the browser yet, because like, it's changed so much. It's coming there. It's I mean, the fact that they're releasing in November is a big deal. [00:23:45] swyx: You said there's so many projects that you want to ship, and the way to ship it in Facebook is to either convince them that this feature itself is worth it, or you tie it together with something else, like the Facebook, I think it's called FB5 rewrite. [00:24:00] Sunil Pai: Oh yeah. I think it's good for them. Like it worked because the Facebook, facebook.com is now more performant. Like it actually works well and they don't have CPU fighting. The fact that Facebook itself is becoming slightly irrelevant in the world is a whole other conversation.  [00:24:17] swyx: Well, you know, I still use my billions, so, uh, it's it's, it improves the experience for them. [00:24:23] Sunil Pai: I'm only being snarky.  [00:24:25] swyx: Uh, but I, you know, hopefully hopefully you're like, you know, there's other properties like Instagram and WhatsApp and what is, uh, which hopefully it will apply there. And then obviously like there there's the VR efforts as well. Absolutely. Yeah.  [00:24:39] Sunil Pai: And that is the future. In fact, uh, several components also happened because they suddenly realized what they could do for how the deal with server components and server-side streaming rendering was never about an SSR story, or even a CEO. [00:24:54] Facebook doesn't give a fuck about SEO, right. It was about finally they figured out how to use concurrent mode to have a better UX altogether.  [00:25:03] React Streaming Server Rendering vs SSR/JAMstack/DSG/DPR/ISR  [00:25:03] Sunil Pai: So, okay. I should probably just keep Server components aside for right now.  [00:25:06] And I'll just talk about the new streaming rendering API. Okay. [00:25:09] Okay. So I know there's like about three styles of rendering. [00:25:14] I say legacy, but legacy is such a dirty word. I don't mean it in the form that it's old it's in fact,  [00:25:20] swyx: traditionally, like, sorry.  [00:25:24] Sunil Pai: Uh, heritage Facebook would say heritage, it's a heritage style rendering, um, which is the, Hey, you use something like a rails or spring or some, it could be node as well. And you spit out a bunch of HTML and then you progressively enhance it with sprinkling JavaScript, pick your metaphor there like three or four metaphors that you could use. [00:25:44] Uh, uh, web components actually falls square into this, where it just comes to life only on the browser and then like make stuff interactive. Uh, then there's the whole client fully client side rendered one. So this is create react app or, well, a number of like smaller players then there's server side rendered. [00:26:04] And so as I rendered is actually like, it's not just next year. It's also your Gatsby. I feel like pretty much every, uh, react framework now has some kind of service side rendering story. Okay. So the next slide goes into what types of server-side rendering things happen. [00:26:20] swyx: there are a lot of subdivisions within here, right? [00:26:22] Like, uh, Gatsby is up here trying to reinvent like D S R D P R or something like that, which is like deferred,  [00:26:29] Sunil Pai: static,  [00:26:32] swyx: DSG, deferred static generation. That's the one. My former employer, Netlify also DPR, and is all, these is all like variations of this stuff with,  [00:26:41] Sunil Pai: like, it's a question of where you put the cache is what it is. [00:26:46] It's a TLA three letter acronym to decide where you put the caching in.  [00:26:49] Yeah, so there's the whole JAMstack and that's like the whole Netlify story, but also CloudFlare pages, or even GitHub pages. [00:26:56] There's no real runtime server rendering. You just generate a bunch of static assets and you Chuck it and it just works. Then there's fully dynamic, which would be next JS without any caching. Right? Like every request gets server-side rendered then like a bundle loads on top of it. And, um, like suddenly makes it alive, like sort of like it hydrates it. [00:27:16] And then after that it's effectively a fully clients rendered application then there's okay. So I just said ISR, but like you said, there are like three or four after this as well. There's this whole DSP. Yeah. Oh wait. So the new streaming API is actually fundamentally new because. I don't know if people even know this, but react already has a streaming rendering API. [00:27:37] It's called a render to node stream. I think that's the API for it. And the reason that that exists is so that, uh, only for a performance thing on the server where otherwise synchronous renders would block like other requests. And it would make like if for a server that was very, uh, uh, there was heavily trafficked. [00:27:57] It would become like really slow. So at least with the streaming API, yeah. That's the one learner to notice the stream, at least with this one, it wouldn't clash and you could interleave requests from there happening, but it didn't solve like anything else, like nothing, you couldn't actually do anything asynchronous on it, which is kind of that fucking sucks because like, it looks like it's an asynchronous API, but you can't do anything asynchronous through it. [00:28:18] It's the only thing that, okay, so vendor to readable stream is cool because I can, even if you go to the very last slide last bit, once. You know what this is, where the very first link open it up. Like it says react, lazy.cool computer club. So this is the demo that they have that exists with this new API. [00:28:36] This is what they link to. So if you refresh it a couple of times and I'll show you something that happens here, so you see the little spinner that shows up there and then the content loads. Yep. So, um, you know what, maybe I can share my screen because I want to show like a couple of things. Uh,  [00:28:53] swyx: yeah. I'll fill in some context, like I knew that the renderToNodeStream API was not good enough, basically because everyone who is doing SSR was doing like a double pass render just to get the data in. Um, and I noticed a very big sticking point for Airbnb so much that they were almost like forking react to something like that to,  [00:29:11] Sunil Pai: they invented a caching API. [00:29:13] They did like a whole bunch of things. Okay. So if you have a look here, you'll see that there's a little bit of spinner and then the content comes in. But now what I'm going to do is I'm going to show you the actual HTML. So let's just go to prettier and just pretty far this, for that, we can see the content and I'll show you something that's very like fundament. [00:29:32] That's the playground playground paste, big HTML. All right. So are you looking at this HTML it's rendering rendering by the way, this, these are special comments that mark suspense boundaries. It's very cool. If you come down here, you'll see a dev, which is the spinner. So this is the spinner that you see when you refresh the page. [00:29:52] So this is. And then the rest of like then, like the, like the bits that are below that close and the HTML closes, but content still start stream is streaming in at that point. So like, this is the actual, like devs that are coming in with the content. And then a script tag gets injected that says, Hey, this thing that just came in, shove it into where the spinner was. [00:30:13] This template  [00:30:14] swyx: tag is so small. I would, I would have imagined it was much bigger.  [00:30:18] Sunil Pai: It's not. So by the way, at this point, the react has not loaded. This is happening without react. This is just a little DOM, much like swelled ha uh, just a little operation that does it. So you, you, you get this content. And, uh, so, so that's the first feature which is that suspense. [00:30:35] It not only works out of the box, but fallbacks and replacing or fallbacks with actual content also happened. Um, I want to pull this outside of this main window to show you something. Um, so you can see the content load in, but keep an eye on the loading spinner. Okay. Just to prove a point. So the content loads in, oh man. [00:30:56] Oh, is it cash just that way? Uh, the content loads in, but the spinner is still going on. That's because there's an artificial delay for the react bundle to show, to show up. That's the point of this demo, which is to show that it can do async. Now you can imagine that it's not just one part of the page. [00:31:13] There could be multiple suspense boundaries here, some with something heavy, something with something asynchronous and they're potentially streaming in effectively in parallel in the, like after the HTML tag closes and they load nicely the, the other cool feature, which is a feature, every framework should steal is if you do a second refresh and here, I think if the, if you do a second refresh and at this point, the react bundle, the JavaScript bundle is cached. [00:31:42] So it loads before the react, the server. Finish the streaming. So at that point, the react says, fuck you, I don't care about the streaming bit anymore. I'm taking over, it's now a client set up like just automatically out of the box, because now that would be faster. So it basically raises the client and suicide. [00:31:58] So suspends working out of the box itself is like a big deal first. So people will start using it like with react dot lazy, but then with data fetching and a bunch of slate styling solutions, which they're also working on. Um, but this is the new server entering API. The reason I was talking about this, I keep losing context about these things. [00:32:19] I should stop sharing, I guess. Um, the absolute best feature of this of course is the reason why is something that comes out of Facebook, which is it works with existing applications and you can incrementally add it. So the first thing you will do is you'll take your render to string that one line somewhere in your code base, which says rendered to. [00:32:39] And you'll replace it with vendor to notable readable string. I mean,  [00:32:43] swyx: either way 99% of users have never used render to string. Right. That's what next year is for.  [00:32:51] Sunil Pai: Well, that's the, that's all my God. That's part of a whole other conversation, right?  [00:32:54] swyx: This is rendered a string as a service. [00:32:59] Sunil Pai: The moment you update next, year's your version of next year? So work on yes.  [00:33:04] swyx: Which is good, which is good. Right? Because, uh, people won't even know and they will just benefit, but it's, it's a little bit bad. Okay. [00:33:13] Next.js and the Open Source Commons  [00:33:13] swyx: And this is a little bit of my criticism, which is that your blessing, a meta framework, at the expense of all the others, right? Like which admittedly have not been as successful, but, uh, basically reacts Chrome, picked a winner and it was next year.  [00:33:27] Sunil Pai: I've been thinking about this so much. Oh, look, it let's get into them at our conversation now. So let's standard disclaimers. I think Guillermo is a mench. [00:33:35] I think the people who work there are incredible. There are some people I'm close to. I'm so happy for them. I know people on the Chrome team who work with these folks. I love them as well. Nicole for me is, uh, is a hero. Uh, and of course the React team at all my buddies, I love them. Okay. That being said, the React team is six people and they don't have the time to build the meta framework and Guillermo, uh the one thing he's incredible at is he's great at building relationships. [00:34:03] He's just amazing at that. Like he, uh, in a very genuine way, like this, there's nothing like ulterior about it. Next JS is open-source and runs on any node runtime and it's designed to do so. There's nothing about it. That's become special on Vercel. Because of that the React team felt, feel like, okay, fine. [00:34:20] We can have a primitive and meta frameworks will solve it. And let's just make sure it works with next two years, because so many other people who are just reach out to them and say, Hey, this new API is showing up. Uh, this is not just with next.js. It's a similar thing is with like react testing library. [00:34:34] When the new activity I showed up, right. I made the PRS to react testing library. I was like, what you should do is have every function and react testing library be wrapped in back act. So nobody really has to like use the API by hand. I just, it's now it's the D and it's a very good testing framework, the Chrome team. [00:34:53] And this is my, I'm not saying this, like, it's a bad thing. I think they did the right thing. The Chrome team realized that if they provide performance enhancements to next years directly, they can have so much impact on the internet because so much of the react tool is running on next year. So fixing how the images are loaded in next year certainly makes the internet faster. [00:35:15] Yeah. And maybe that's what we should do also like for the accessibility, just ship acts in, uh, all the acts rules in development mode, either in like react Dom directly, or at least the next years. Oh yeah. The sweatshop, the axles. Yeah.  [00:35:33] swyx: Oh, they're enabled by default. And, uh, your, your app one compile, uh, actually I think it would warn you won't fail by a worn. [00:35:40] Sunil Pai: Okay. So you should be making the swag folks should be making way more noise about that. That is such an incredible draw for accessibility.  [00:35:48] swyx: The thing is like, uh, if you encourage, if you think that your, your problems are solved by X, then you're taking a very sort of paint by numbers approach to accessibility. [00:35:57] Right. Which is actually kind of against the spirits of, of, uh, what people really want, which is, um, real audits with like tap through everything. Like the stuff that machines could catch is so little,  [00:36:08] Sunil Pai: I agree. The whole point of actual SIS to make sure that all the low hanging fruit is done by default. [00:36:15] It's like TypeScript, like I guess, which is a TypeScript. Doesn't solve all your bugs, but the stupid undefined is not a function once it does. Yeah, exactly. Make sure that your images have. Just by default, like we can have stronger conversations about tab order once you make sure all your images have all tags. [00:36:35] swyx: Uh, okay. Anyway, so, so yeah. So first of all, yeah, I agree with you on the, on this Chrome. And, uh, I think this is opensource winning, right? Like, uh, there's a, there's a commons. Vercel built the most successful react framework, Nate. They went the investor really hard at it. They had the right abstraction level, you know, not too much, not too little, just the right one. [00:36:55] Uh, and now everyone is finding them as like the Schelling point, which is a word I'm coming to use a lot, uh, because you know, that is the most impact that you reach. Uh, so no hate on any of them. It's just like it happens that a venture backed startup benefits from all of this.  [00:37:11] Sunil Pai: Can you imagine how hard it makes my job? [00:37:13] We don't run, not on CloudFlare workers, which means Next.js doesn't run on it. It's annoying.  [00:37:19] swyx: Oh, is there any attempt to make it run?  [00:37:22] Sunil Pai: There are a couple of ways where we can get it to work, but it like, it's a lot of polyfill and, uh, we'll get that. Like, I expect it to be fixed within the next three to six months, but out of the box, it doesn't run on it. [00:37:35] And for me in my head, it doesn't, it's not even about CloudFlare workers. I'm like, oh shit. That's what makes Bezos like even richer because everyone's got, has, if you want to use Nadia using AWS or Lambda. And that just means more folks are using AWS. I'm just like, okay, I guess. Sure. I know you work there as well, but it's just very annoying to me where I'm like, shit. [00:37:56] What's even more interesting is that node is now moving to implementing web standard APIs inside of it. So they already have the streams implementations. They will have fetch fetch will be a node API. Like it will be implemented based on standards, which means the request response objects. And once that happens and people, if people build frameworks on that, then you can say that it will run on CloudFlare workers because the cloud fed worker's API is also like a standards based thing. [00:38:21] So it's an interesting shift of like what's happening in the, in the runtime world. Also conveniently the person who implemented the web stream implementation at node just started at CloudFlare like last month, like James. Oh, James  [00:38:38] swyx: now. Okay. Yeah. I recognize  [00:38:39] Sunil Pai: a great guy by the way. Uh, very, I just love these people who have like clarity of thought when they talk James as well. [00:38:46] The Third Age of JavaScript  [00:38:46] swyx: We're kind of moving into the other topic of like JavaScript in 2021. Right. So first of all, I have a meta question of how do you keep informed of all this stuff? Like I ha I had no idea before you told me about this Node stuff. How do you know? [00:38:57] Sunil Pai: I have an internet information junkie problem. [00:39:00] I replaced the weed smoking habit with a Twitter habit. This is what it is.  [00:39:05] swyx: You're not unlike some magic mailing lists that like tells you all this stuff. Okay.  [00:39:09] Sunil Pai: Like reading the tea leaves is what it is. Like. I keep trying to find out what's going on. The problem  [00:39:14] swyx: is I, I, I feel like I'm ready. I'm relatively plugged in, but you're like, you're way more plugged in than me. [00:39:22] and then this development with node adopting web standard APIs, um, is this a response to Deno?  [00:39:28] Sunil Pai: I don't know if it's a response to Deno because I know Mikeal Rogers wrote about this. Like your. That we made a mistake by trying to polyfill note APS and browser code with like modules and stuff. [00:39:41] Right? Like that's what the whole browser, if I, during those days, when we started actually using the same module system and the word isomorphic came up, what ended up happening was naughty APIs were polyfill in web land, but what should have happened is we should have gone the other way. And it would have kept like bundle this bundle size problem would have been a web smaller pro problem right now, just because of that. [00:40:07] So I know that the folks at not have been thinking about it for awhile, maybe Deno finally pushed them to do it, but I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think it's like that reductive. I don't think it's just, it's just dental. It's very much a, this is the right time to do it and we actually can do it now. [00:40:22] So let's like flesh it out and do it the right way. Uh, and it's hard to do it in, in no, right. It's not just that you can just implement this thing. Like, what does making an HTTP server mean now? Because the request response objects are slightly different in shape. So you have to make sure that you don't break existing code. [00:40:39] So it's not as simple as saying, oh, we're just implementing the APS. That being said, having fetch inside node proper is going to be great. I think. Excellent.  [00:40:47] swyx: Yeah. Yeah, no more node fetch. Um, yeah. You know, my other thoughts on I've been, I've been doing this talk called the third age of JavaScript. Right. [00:40:55] Which is a blog post that I wrote last year that, um, honestly I feel quite a bit of imposter syndrome around it because all I did was name a thing and like it was already happening. It was, you already saw, like, I think basically when, when COVID hit, a lot of people were. I have a lot of time on my hands, I'm going to make new projects or something. [00:41:14] Um, uh, and then, yeah, so I just, I named it and I just called it a few trends. So the, the trends I I'm talking about are the rise of IES modules first, you know, in, in development and in production, uh, concurrently the death of 11, which I'm also tracking.  [00:41:30] Sunil Pai: Yes, those are, those are both come to fruition.  [00:41:34] swyx: Which, by the way, I think the us government will have to drop by 11, uh, sometime in the next six months or so because, uh, the, the use, the usage levels have plummeted. [00:41:43] 3.6% of all visits to the U S government website in November, 2020 was I 11 and now that has dropped to 1.6, um, all  [00:41:51] Sunil Pai: accelerating the drop is actually accelerating.  [00:41:53] swyx: Uh, I don't know if it's accelerated it's everything, but it's under the 2% mark that the us government sets for itself. [00:41:59] They have an opportunity to essentially say like once it's stable, you know, there's no chance that it'll ever go back up again. Uh, they could just deprecate 11 for all government websites and then that, that will be the signal for all enterprises. And that's it. Yeah. So, um, and then the second. [00:42:15] Oh, I was going to move on the second bit. But what was your calling?  [00:42:19] Sunil Pai: Oh, just saying that this happened, like, while I was working in JP Morgan over the last year, they did the same shift, but they're like, yeah, we are now a Chrome company. Literally none of our clients are asking for this and you know, it, it was just in rules somewhere, or we need to target, I 11, some people looked at it and said, okay, fine. [00:42:35] What happened is people are spending money on something that wasn't giving them the returns. And that's when a bank is like, yeah, we don't need  [00:42:41] swyx: to do this anymore. Like you, you can deprecate free support. Right. And, and just make, just charge for 11 support, stop spreading it out among all the other users who are bearing the cost of development and maintenance. [00:42:54] The other one was collapsing layers, which is the death of Unix philosophy. Like , we used to have one tool does one thing, but now we want to combine everything. So, uh, Deno and Rome both have ambitions of linter format or test runner, all of that into a single binary, because the idea of what we want out of a default runtime has changed, uh, from a, for a very minimalist thing. And I always made the comparison to what word processors used to be like. [00:43:18] So, are you aware of Benedict Evans? He has a blog post, which is amazing about what a job of a platform should be. And he talks about like in 1980s word processors used to only let you type words. And if you wanted a horizontal layout, if you wanted word counts, if you wanted footnotes, these are all plugins that you buy and install separately. [00:43:38] Right. Okay. So, but as we evolve, as we just use all these things, we realize that these are just like the same tool that we want out of a word processor. So then they absorb all these features instead of plugins. They're just part of the platform now. They're there now in the new table stakes. [00:43:53] So I make that analogy to the runtimes that already doing, right. Like, Node used to be this like much more minimal thing. And, uh, but now we are expecting more and more out of our default setup with all these tools . Um, it's also very wasteful because when each of these tools don't know each other, they're all parsing their own ASTs running, running their own code. And then yeah, that's the whole  [00:44:12] Sunil Pai: proposition, but yeah.  [00:44:14] swyx: Any, any tool that collapses layers will, we will meet this, like, ESBuild, um, collapsed. Like a standard web pack would do like five or six AST runs. ESBuild collapsed it to two to three. That's a source of its speed as well.  [00:44:27] Sunil Pai: One of my favorite facts about ESBuild is that it is faster to minify the code than to not modify the code when you run. Yes. And the reason for that is because when you try, when it tries to do the full AST, keep comment notes, everything else, it has to do a lot more bookkeeping, but the moment it just ditches all those things, because ESBuild doesn't do like full magnification, like something like a torso, but it does do like a smaller symbol substitution, white space, uh, uh, removes all white spaces. [00:44:59] And it does like some dead code elimination. Uh, and it's a lot more work to keep the bookkeeping for everything and all the white space notes than to not do it. So he has built is actually faster when you have a modification turned on, love it.  [00:45:14] swyx: It's amazing. It's amazing. [00:45:16]   [00:45:16] ESbuild vs SWC vs Zig  [00:45:16] swyx: Do you have opinions on ESBuild versus SWC? [00:45:18] Sunil Pai: Okay. So I like ESBuild. Uh, because I was very strongly looking for something a lot more opinionated. I've noticed that the reason that code basis Surat usually boiled down to the acute decisions that you make. Like in the very beginning of the project, you can do anything. I mean, whichever dumbass came up with the idea of baby plugin, macros has like ruined a lot of lives. [00:45:41] It was me. I came up today, but that is like, then you're like tight. So the thing that ESBuild does is very like its creator, Evan Wallace, which is that it's, it's one of a kind like, he's not really interested so much in having community, uh, uh, PRS or like having suggestions on how it should be built. He has a very strong vision of what it should be like, which is why there are no AST level plugins and all that jazz. [00:46:08] And because of that, because of, like I said, because he's collapsed the lyrics and collapse, the size of the development team to just himself, he has like such a clear vision on what it should be. So it w is good. It would be great for, I want to say 95% of projects that fall under the things he has designed at four. [00:46:28] Okay. Uh, and that's a lot of applications. That's a shit ton of applications. That's like everything, but your host, if you need anything, uh, unique, I'll give you one. That's like a very good use case that is bill will never use. Do you know what, um, uh, really has this idea of persistent queries. Okay. So like for whoever's hearing who doesn't know it, right? [00:46:52] Like you can write a query inside Java. And when it compiles it out, it takes out the query and replaces it just with an identifier, like, like a little eight character identifier. And it hosts that query instead of like on the service side. And it says, oh, that eight, eight character query, you can just hit it as a restaurant point now. [00:47:11] So you can write the code internally in JavaScript where it belongs, but it doesn't add like to your bundle or whatever it is. So ESBuild will never support this, which means if you want to do really optimizations on your react code base, you won't be able to do it all. You have to like add on to yours, which you could do. [00:47:29] I guess like you can still use Babel would, uh, SWC is meant to be a platform and which is why next years will use it because next gen is the meta framework, not just for react, but also for like some programming opinions, extracting get server props, get started, props, which one you want to be that this thing after server components comes into play, but a number of things like there will be people who always want to do. [00:47:54] The emotion macro now is like fairly, uh, popular that they will want to use it. So I assume they will implement it in, uh, interest. I know. Do you know what bun is by the way? Do you mean, do you know, how are you following Jared Sumner? Some  [00:48:10] swyx: summers, no, wait, so  [00:48:13] Sunil Pai: key is reimplementing ESB, but in a language called Zig it's another systems programming language. [00:48:20] And he's his claim is that it's about three times faster than you spell it right now, which is already some 200 times faster than Babel loader. It is just our web pack, but it's a language you said it? No. So the language is called Zig lines at AIG, but the thing he's building is called a, B U N. He hasn't shared it in public yet. [00:48:41] I think he's actually planning on sharing it like next week. Like I think it's that imminent. He's been sharing numbers right now. Yeah. That's the guy, Jared. Uh, I love, I should've followed him like a while ago, create great feed, uh, excellent content. And like, he's, he he's thinking that he's going to like implement. [00:48:57] He might actually implement an AST level, uh, uh, plugin, micro API, possibly just implement the emotion one. I think he was just, yeah. See, oh, that's like literally the tweet would write under the main one right there where he's like, Hey, what if we actually just did this in? Uh, oh,  [00:49:14] swyx: he's right. He's he's right with you. [00:49:17] Yeah. Like he's  [00:49:17] Sunil Pai: just talking about it, like right there. So, uh, so SWC versus ESBuild, I don't think is the conversation. I think ESBuild will have a rise. A bunch of people will use it. The nice thing, the best feature about ESBuild is because there are aren't any like cute decisions. You will be able to move away from it to whatever succeeds. [00:49:39] Th there's nothing customer  [00:49:40] swyx: that I believe that was Evan's original idea. That IES build was a proof of existence that day there's a better way. And that he stuck to it for way longer than I thought he would.  [00:49:51] Sunil Pai: People are using it in production and everything know everything about the designers that it's replaceable. [00:49:56] That it's just a,  [00:49:59] swyx: that's wonderful. Isn't that amazing when people design their stuff? W. You know, it  [00:50:04] Sunil Pai: isn't kind of pressure that he would have had the best. Thank goodness. It was the successful CTO of Figma with money in the bank who is implementing this and didn't have anyone to impress. You know what I mean? [00:50:16] It was like, yeah, let's put a macro API and what else do you want? Like, whatever. No, he doesn't  [00:50:21] swyx: go. Yeah. But he just needs to police himself and no one else. Right. If you don't like it,  [00:50:26] Sunil Pai: this is during his downtime from Figma that he's working on this.  [00:50:30] swyx: Um, my, my secret theory is that he's doing this as an, as a Figma ad. [00:50:33] Like, you know, if he, if the CTO of Figma does this for fun, imagine what it's like to work inside of Figma, you know, like of, I've heard it's pretty great,  [00:50:42] Sunil Pai: pretty great working inside of Figma too. Well, the code is like, it's really cool.  [00:50:46] Let Non-X Do X: Figma vs Canva, Webflow vs Wix/Squarespace  [00:50:46] Sunil Pai: Did you actually point out. Uh, Ken was like six times bigger than Figma. [00:50:51] Now   [00:50:52] swyx: you wanna talk about that?  [00:50:53] Sunil Pai: Oh God. That's. I didn't realize until you pointed it out.  [00:50:58] swyx: Incredible. Imagine all the geniuses working in Figma and go looking at Canada and like, yo, like I, I have like a thousand times your features and your six times in my size as a business.  [00:51:10] Sunil Pai: Uh, but I hope every one of those engineers understands the value of sales and like reaching out to your actual customers because  [00:51:17] swyx: I don't think it's just sales. [00:51:18] It's more like, uh, they're always going to be more non, like, this is a category of software called let Nanex do X, right? Let non-designers do design. Whereas Figma is clearly for designers doing design. Um, and there's always going to be like a tool, three orders of magnitude more non-experts uh, who just want to do basic shit. [00:51:37] Sunil Pai: Oh man. I hope that flow has a multi-billion dollar buyout and at some point,  [00:51:42] swyx: uh, I mean, I, yeah, I mean there's clearly something that w the problem with flow is that. They're too close to code. Right? You have to learn CSS the box model.  [00:51:56] Sunil Pai: Yeah. I mean, they do say there's no code, but really they're a visual,  [00:52:00] swyx: if you don't know CSS when using Webflow you're screwed. [00:52:03] Like   [00:52:04] Sunil Pai: that's right. It's uh, they have, they have the best grid editor on the market too. I have to say that. I  [00:52:10] swyx: mean, the UI is just amazing, right? It's just like, um, yeah, I mean, you know, there's a reason why like the Wix is, and the Squarespaces are actually worth more than the workflow and it's not just cause they were around earlier. [00:52:22] Like, um, they're, they're just easier to use for non-technical people.  [00:52:26] Sunil Pai: That's a good, you you're talking about why did we even start talking about this? What did you want to talk about? Uh, we were talking  [00:52:33] swyx: about like, uh, 32 JavaScript. Um, so I think we kind of like dealt with those, those, uh, those topics.  [00:52:39] Was there anything else that you want to talk about? [00:52:40] Didn't JavaScript land,  [00:52:42] JavaScript Twitter and Notion's 9mb Marketing Site  [00:52:42] Sunil Pai: I don't know if you have noticed, but I've kind of actually stopped engaging in the JavaScript discourse on Twitter specifically, which actually hurts me like a little bit, because that's where all my jobs could friends are. And that's kind of like, I've seen it all. I've seen JavaScript router now for the last 11 years, I would think 10, 11 years that I've seen it. [00:53:02] And I used to like participate very heavily. And back to the thing that you, uh, that we were just discussing about the conversations that happened too, about like SBA versus MPA and about like the whole notion blow up about how they made them thing into like 800 KB. Yep. Uh, the easiest kind of discourse to have is to have like one absolutist opinion, uh, that I saw a number of people in like those threads and the surrounding threads have, which is a, well, this is bad or this is good. [00:53:35] And, uh, that's, that's all I got to say about it. Now give me like 40 likes on this reply industry. Uh, whereas like there's real opportunity here to understand how and yeah, that's the one, that's the one with treat by the way. Clearly it got like attention. No,  [00:53:51] swyx: by the way I phrased it very neutrally. I actually was pretty careful. [00:53:54] Cause I knew that it's going to attract some buzz. I had no idea what's going to be this much, but  [00:54:00] Sunil Pai: no, no, no. But like I'm so interested in talking about, uh, so this is what I was talking to you about, which is like, it's not just about a website at one point of time. It's about the system that generates these kinds of like artifacts, uh, of, so for example, with what, what did they say? [00:54:24] They're there 8 47 KB right now. They're not 8 47 KV today. They were 8 47 KB. When you, uh, Uh, tweeted this, uh, on the 11th, they are not in 47 KB. Now they might be 852, or they might be 841. Are you about to check?  [00:54:43] swyx: No, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm not, it doesn't matter. The exact number. Doesn't matter. I'm going to give you another example, which also came up, which is Netflix. [00:54:49] Remember they ripped out react and he said they have react back  [00:54:54] Sunil Pai: on Netflix. I use, are you serious on that? Wait, did they have like both Netflix, they have both react and jQuery, jQuery and react on that page right now. It's just, but like, for me, it's interesting that, which is like, I think the most insightful tweet in this was very pointed out that nobody noticed this until they told it to us. [00:55:16] Nobody saw it. It bothered. Yeah. That's the one, like nobody bothered about it. It was still making the money. They were happy about it. And they wanted to share that. And we need more of them. We need more people to be like sharing the process because if we react very badly to these things, then fewer people will want to actually share the numbers. [00:55:34] And you won't learn from the industry, but I don't know whether it's a good thing or a bad thing. It does mean that you can make a multi-billion dollar company with a marketing site. That's nine MB of Charles' script. And I think, I think people who have very strong opinions about how much jealous should be on a page to take a step back and wonder how do you make it? [00:55:55] So like, how do you, from the very beginning of like running your company, how do you make it so that it doesn't go up beyond that? Also, what opportunities are you abandoning by focusing on making sure your marketing page, uh, has like 100 KB of JavaScript instead of like nine MB  [00:56:17] swyx: shipping velocity, right? [00:56:19] Sunil Pai: You are somewhere, you are spending effort on it somewhere. Just so we're clear because somebody will look at it and say, fuck you, are you suggesting that we all put in that's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that the resources, that word, but resources at these companies are limited and they are, they they're prioritized and sequenced and you should ask yourself in what order you want to do it and who you're trying to please, are you trying to please your customers and your users or the peanut gallery on Twitter? [00:56:48] And I think that's something that like, I, it's why I don't engage so much anymore because it's so hard to communicate in once and somebody will come in with a, well, fuck you, you work for Facebook or used to work for Facebook. What would you know? I'm like, you got me that kind of ends the conversation that, right. [00:57:04] Like I'm studying contributed to babies being burned alive or whatever it is like, this is what it is.  [00:57:12] swyx: Um, it's a nuanced debate, like, uh, because they also did some like notion clearly did some stupid stuff here. Right? Like it, it, they could have spent a day. Uh, so do you know why it was 9.9 megabytes?  [00:57:25] Sunil Pai: If I understand it was the whole notion that that was being used, the  [00:57:27] swyx: whole app. [00:57:28] Yeah. They were shipping the whole, there was actually someone from notion, uh, answering me. Uh, it's here. Yeah. This guy's, this guy works at notion before the marketing site was another route in our, at the time 9.1 NBME and app, we load the whole app just to show the sign up button. [00:57:44] So what,  [00:57:45] Sunil Pai: what it's worth Facebook sign up page does start prefetching actual Facebook code so that once you log in it loads instantaneously. So there's a reason to do it. It's just that it shouldn't be nine and B of course. That's  [00:58:00] swyx: yeah, they could have like took a day every, every six months or something like perfect day, you know, and do that. [00:58:06] So that's why I'm hesitant, uh, giving them a pass for like, okay, so what your multi-billion dollar company? This is embarrassing. This is just an unprofessional. Um, so yes,

In this first of three VoiceAmerica Specials on how our world goes global in an earth- and people-friendly way, renowned thought leaders Ken Wilber, Jean Houston, David Korten, Riane Eisler, David Sloan Wilson, Anneloes Smitsman, Paul Atkins, Glen Martin and Richard Clugston join VoiceAmerica host Kurt Johnson and GLOBAL UNITIVE HEALING author Elena Mustakova for informative and inspiring visioning and discussion. Social, cultural and environmental contexts are all considered along with the role of international organizations like the United Nations and its challenging Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). What kind of holistic and unitive consciousness shift is needed to achieve something as ambitious as global-level transformative change when we know it is imperative that we do? The subsequent two Specials include (1) several time Nobel Peace Prize nominee Ervin Laszlo, and others, discussing specific visions and (2) an examination of the SDGs with thought leaders like Gregg Braden, Jude Currivan, Richard Clugston, Richard Bowell, Ken Kitatani and others from the SDG Thought Leaders Circle of the Evolutionary Leaders Circle (https://sdgthoughtleaderscircle.org/). Guests are pictured in order of their appearance except for the Host.

January 20, 2021 Glen Martin is a leading figure in the creation of the The Constitution for the Federation of Earth! -- a document developed by successive world constituent assemblies in countries around the world -- with input from people around the world. The World Constitution and Parliament Association helps coordinate a network of tens of thousands of people from 120 countries in the movement to create non-military, democratic world government under the Earth Constitution. Glen is a Professor of Philosophy and Religious Studies at Radford University and author of 7 books including Triumph of Civilization: Democracy, Nonviolence, and the Piloting of Spaceship Earth. -- See the video at: PeoplePoweredPlanet.com -- Music by: „World Citizen“ Jahcoustix feat. Shaggy courtesy of Dominik Haas, Telefonica and EoM Also, check out the film on World Citizen #1 Garry Davis at: www.theworldismycountry.com

Glen Martin is a brand builder, leadership and sales expert specializing in helping coaches build authority in their target market for high quality leads. He also owns a leadership and asset development business that empowers men and women to pursue greatness and truly go after their dreams in life by helping them to tap into their true God-given potential. https://instagram.com/glen__martin?igshid=myck046kian6 https://linktr.ee/Daduptribe

Learn More about this episode and see Special Offers to Support Your Journey www.acoustichealth.com/quantum-conve…earth-update/

Learn More about this episode and see Special Offers to Support Your Journey https://www.acoustichealth.com/quantum-conversations/new-earth-update/

Are conserving wildlife and protecting animals the same thing? Award winning environmental reporter, Glen Martin, guides us as this question applies to Africa's mega fauna. Conservation planning of large landscapes and species survival includes the cascades of biodiversity that depend upon them. Animal rights, animal activists, and animal welfare consider each individual life as critical, and that none should die because of us. Animal rights restrictions present a challenging paradox for making long-term species survival and large landscape conservation, workable. Through one-on-one conversations with legendary figures throughout Africa's game management history in wildlife rich range states from E Africa to S.West Africa, Glen's book “Game Changer” originally aired here in 2014 vividly demonstrates, even 6 years on, how our world's last great populations of wildlife are hostages in the battle between those who love them, those who kill them and those who want to save them.

Are conserving wildlife and protecting animals the same thing? Award winning environmental reporter, Glen Martin, guides us as this question applies to Africa's mega fauna. Conservation planning of large landscapes and species survival includes the cascades of biodiversity that depend upon them. Animal rights, animal activists, and animal welfare consider each individual life as critical, and that none should die because of us. Animal rights restrictions present a challenging paradox for making long-term species survival and large landscape conservation, workable. Through one-on-one conversations with legendary figures throughout Africa’s game management history in wildlife rich range states from E Africa to S.West Africa, Glen's book “Game Changer” originally aired here in 2014 vividly demonstrates, even 6 years on, how our world's last great populations of wildlife are hostages in the battle between those who love them, those who kill them and those who want to save them.

This Thursday, at 8pm, eastern, the Just Add Bourbon Podcast Facebook Live series, "The Other Side of the Glass" continues as we welcome back Glenn Martin Hammond, Democratic candidate for the senatorial seat in Kentucky's 31st district. Hammond, an under graduate of the University of Kentucky in 1992 and the University of Northern Kentucky's Law Program in 1995, has been an attorney for 25 years. His campaign statement is simple: "I hear so often from people all across our district they feel that both state and local governments no longer work for them, but instead, for the special interests. I intend to change that and bring balance back to Frankfort. My only special interest will always be for the betterment of our people and communities in which we live". These are powerful words and ones that make us stop and think, regardless of where we live, whether in Kentucky, the United States, the world. Please join us as we welcome Mr. Hammond back to the show this Thursday as he makes his final push for the Senate seat, Tuesday November 3rd.

In 1913 a curious site was seen on the beach in Muskegon. A new invention never before seen in the area landed in the water nearby and a curious figured emerge, a bird-man. This was the first time a plane had been seen in Muskegon much less one that could land on water. Today's podcast tells the story of the race around the Great Lakes that brought both pilot and plane to Muskegon for the first time. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/patrick-horn/support

Are conserving wildlife and protecting animals the same thing? Award winning environmental reporter, Glen Martin, guides us as this question applies to Africa's mega fauna. Conservation planning of large landscapes and species survival includes the cascades of biodiversity that depend upon them. Animal rights, animal activists, and animal welfare consider each individual life as critical, and that none should die because of us. Animal rights restrictions present a challenging paradox for making long-term species survival and large landscape conservation, workable. Through one-on-one conversations with legendary figures throughout Africa's game management history in wildlife rich range states from E Africa to S.West Africa, Glen's book “Game Changer” originally aired here in 2014 vividly demonstrates even 6 years on, how our world's last great populations of wildlife are hostages in the battle between those who love them, those who kill them and those who want to save them.

Podcast: Santeria Sessions Host: @ghetto-witchez Special guest: Palo Santo & Dj Glen Martin Friday 7PM UK More info at: https://itswide.com/en/santeria-sessions-27th-march-w-palo-santo-dj-glen-martin/

Today we celebrate the Spanish botanist who tackled the area known as New Spain and the man who discovered the Schneck Oak. We'll learn about the French botanist who made many of our blooms bigger and better and the mayor who was known as the Little Flower. We'll hear some thoughts about Winter and how we can benefit from the solace. We Grow That Garden Library with a book about indoor gardening. I'll talk about a beautiful holiday gift for the gardener who likes to work on puzzles, and then we wrap things up with the 1992 discovery that rocked the botanical world. But first, let's catch up on a few recent events.   Today's Curated Articles:   Chinese Witch Hazel Plant story - Hamamelis mollis - The English Garden @theenglishgarden.co.uk  Here's the story behind the beautiful Chinese witch hazel - Hamamelis mollis. The English Plant Hunter Charlies Maries found it in China in 1878 & brought it home to London, where it sat unnoticed for 20 years. From @theenglishgarden.co.uk    In pictures: Tubers of the future | Kew @KewGardens Thanks to @KewGardens for trialing these petite high-yield alternatives to the potato: oca tubers have a lemony taste (Oxalis tuberosa) & mashua tubers are peppery (Tropaeolum tuberosum). Both are native to the Andes.     Garden Design and Landscaping “College Glen” | Decorum.London @LondonDecorum @cedstonegroup Here's a fantastic post by landscape design co @LondonDecorum Gorgeous "College Glen" w/ Sandstone Paving @cedstonegroup, timber, Siberian Larch deck, & Lavender plantings. Love it all - pics, project & plant list - so thoughtful!| Decorum.London https://buff.ly/35lR7HK     Now, if you'd like to check out these curated articles for yourself, you're in luck - because I share all of it with the Listener Community on Facebook. So, there’s no need to take notes or search for links - the next time you're on Facebook, just search for the Free Facebook Group - The Daily Gardener Community and request to join. I'd love to meet you in the group.       Brevities: #OTD Today is the birthday of the Spanish botanist Martin Sesse who was born on this day in 1751. King Carlos III charged Sesse with identifying, classifying, and illustrating all of the plant species throughout New Spain. This was a tremendous request. But Sesse was the man for the job. He was excellent at training young botanists, he was a pragmatist, and he had a strategic mind. He made plans for a major botanical expedition of new Spain, which was composed of the southwestern part of the United States, Mexico, and Central America. The expedition was an elaborate undertaking, and the botanists and the rest of the company would not return to Spain for a dozen years. Sesse put together an A-team of botanists, including José Mariano Mociño and Vicente Cervantes, as well as a cantankerous naturalist by the name of José Longino Martinez.  A surgeon and naturalist from Madrid, Martinez wasn't suited to teamwork. After one too many disagreements with Sesse and the other botanists, Martinez went his own way and went off to explore California, which is how he became known as California's first naturalist. As for Sesse and the other botanists, they conducted several plant collecting missions all over Mexico, which resulted in Sesse's most significant contribution to botany; a Flora of Mexico. Of course, Sesse didn't do any of this alone. He collaborated with his team, especially Mociño and Cervantes. Together they established the Royal Botanical Garden of Mexico City, and Cervantes ended up serving as the Prof. of botany. They also founded botanical gardens in Manila and the Canary Islands. Altogether, Sesse's team cost Spain nearly 400,000 pesos. Sesse's work could not have been done without the support of King Carlos, the Third. Luckily Sesse's significant endeavors were accomplished by the time Carlos the Fourth ascended the throne in 1788. Number Four had little interest in advancing scientific knowledge. It was clear that the time of significant Spanish scientific exploration was coming to an end. During his lifetime, Sesse made a significant number of botanical illustrations, which he brought with him when he returned back home to Spain. These pieces were never published, and they sat dormant until the botanist de Candolle saw them, and he knew right away that they were worth pursuing. He hired the artist is Jean Christophe Heyland to produce new drawings based on Sesse's work. Today Sesse is remembered most conspicuously by a dry gin that's made in Madrid. It has a beautiful blue label.       #OTD Today is the birthday of the Indiana physician, naturalist, and botanist Jacob Schneck who was born on this day in 1843. After his service in the Civil War, Jacob decided to educate himself by going to school to become a teacher. After teaching for a short period, he decided he wanted to become a doctor. His teaching jobs allowed him to put himself through medical school Jacob loved plants, and he spent as much time as he could in the field Botanizing. His quick curiosity and cleverness enabled him to observe a feature regarding some species of red Oaks. Jacob noticed that the acorn from one species of red Oak was quite distinctive. He shared his discovery with a fellow botanist named Nathaniel Lord Britton. Britton agreed with Jacob’s observation, and he named the oak in his honor, calling it the Quercus Schneckii (ii = "ee-eye"). But most people just call it the Schneck Oak. Jacob put together a collection of various types of wood for an exhibition at the Chicago World’s Fair. Jacob died at the age of 63. His funeral was reported to be the largest ever held in Mount Caramel Illinois Newspaper accounts indicated he had been battling pneumonia but still had gone out to tend to his patients. His efforts probably cost him his life. “No man in Wabash county had endeared himself to so many people as had Dr. Schneck. Year after year he had gone about in our midst, quietly doing his great work for humanity, turning away now and then to investigate some scientific question, especially in the realm of botany, his favorite study, and one in which he had acquired a national reputation.”   After Schneck died, his collection of specimens, stones, shells, and fossils was put on display at the Carnegie public library in 1934. When he was alive, Jacob spent a great deal of time fashioning cases and containers to display his collection. Each specimen was labeled in Dr. Schneck’s impeccable handwriting.       #OTD Today is the anniversary of the death of the French flower breeder Victor Lemoine ("Loom-one") who died on this day in 1911. We owe a debt of gratitude to Lemoine for enhancing the beauty of so many flowers in our gardens: Lilacs, Mock-Oranges, Phlox, Peonies, Gladiolus, Tuberous Begonias, Geraniums, and Deutzias. Around the year 1850, Lemoine borrowed money from his gardener father and began a nursery that survived three generations thanks to his son Emile and his grandson Henri. The Lemoine nursery thrived on land bought in Nancy, France (pronounced "non-cee"). A few years later, Lemoine created his first double-flower; the Portulaca grandiflora or Moss Ross. As with so many of Lemoine's creations, the double-flower created double the beauty. In 1854, Lemoine turned the original five-petaled single blossom of the geranium into a double-flowered stunner he called "Gloire de Nancy" or "Glory of Nancy." Northern gardeners owe Lemoine a debt of gratitude for his work with peonies. He crossed the Paeonia wittmanniana with the Siberian albaflora; creating a peony that could withstand a winter freeze. Lemoine created some of our most memorable heirlooms: the white Le Cygne or Swan peony, the Primevere with creamy white outer guard petals, and packed with canary yellow petals inside, the blush-colored Solange peony, the pink Sarah Bernhardt, La Fee the Fairy peony, and the creamy-white Alsace-Lorraine peony. But, it is the Lilac that will forever be associated with Lemoine. Incredibly, Lemoine didn't start working on Lilacs until he was almost fifty. That said, Lemoine's wife, Marie Louise, was his tireless assistant when his eyes and fine-motor skills were failing. She hand-pollinated the little lilac flowers and aided both her husband and her son with hybridizing. Lemoine worked magic with his Lilacs. He made them bloom earlier and later. He improved the quality of the bloom, and he expanded their color spectrum. He grew the very first double Lilac. By the time the Lemoine nursery closed its doors in 1968, the Lemoine's had bred 214 new cultivars of Lilac.       #OTD Happy birthday to the Little Flower, aka Fiorello LaGuardia, who was born on this day in 1882 on Sullivan Street in Greenwich Village. Mayor LaGuardia often referred to as the Little Flower (Fiorello means little flower in Italian). Although the reference could be construed as a slight for LaGuardia’s short stature (he was only 5’2”), it became an ironic endearment as LaGuardia had a larger than life, take-charge personality. Little Flower is remembered for his desire for justice and fairness; he was a champion of the working class and immigrants. He died at age 64.       Unearthed Words   "In the depths of winter, I finally learned that within me, there lay an invincible summer." - Albert Camus   "There is a privacy about [winter] which no other season gives you ..... In spring, summer and fall people sort of have an open season on each other; only in the winter, in the country, can you have longer, quiet stretches when you can savor belonging to yourself." - Ruth Stout       It's Time to Grow That Garden Library with Today's Book: Countertop Gardens by Shelley Levis The subtitle for this book is Easily Grow Kitchen Edibles Indoors for Year-Round Enjoyment. This is such a timely topic for those of us who I want to maintain some type of gardening activity during the winter in addition to satisfying I desire for garden-to-table produce. Self-contained growing systems are perfect for growing your own food indoors, and they're becoming evermore is sufficient and occupy such a small footprint that now you can grow your food even in the smallest spaces. Shelly walks you through the different growing systems that are available nowadays, including hydroponic, aquaponic, and vertical gardening systems. She also shows you how to make your own DIY setup. Chapters include: Countertop garden methods Best edibles for countertop gardens DIY countertop gardening Growing basics Countertop growing devices Troubleshooting Thanks to Shelley, Countertop Gardens ensures that fresh food is at your fingertips year-round. You can get a used copy of Shelley's book and support the show, using the Amazon Link in today's Show Notes for under $3.     Today's Recommended Holiday Gift for Gardeners: Galison's 1,000-piece butterfly puzzle by Wendy Gold This flawless fit 1000+ piece puzzle is a stunning collage work of art that makes for a challenging and gorgeous puzzle that you will love piecing together. The puzzle features Wendy Gold’s vintage images of butterflies collaged and clustered over a map of the world. Plus, it includes an insert with information about the artist and her fantastic image. The Galison Wendy Gold Butterfly Migration 1000-piece puzzle is the right level of challenge for older children or adults to complete over a long weekend or a few days. Pull up a chair and sit together at the kitchen table, talking and laughing as you find the proper place for each puzzle piece. The finished puzzle measures 20” x 27.” The 1054-piece colorful jigsaw puzzle is just the right level of challenge for a few days of activity. It includes an insert with information about the artist and her fantastic image. This flawless fit jigsaw puzzle features vintage images of butterflies collaged and clustered over a map of the world. Makes an ideal gift for any puzzle lover! Galison uses continuous quality control checks during production to ensure there is virtually no puzzle dust. Each piece is printed with no glare, non-toxic inks. $15.81       Something Sweet Reviving the little botanic spark in your heart On this day in 1992, California newspapers reported that botanists had discovered a new plant in California, and it was caused a big stir in the botanical world. The plant is a member of the Rose family and has a delightfully charming common name - the Shasta snow-wreath. The closest known living species to the Shasta snow-wreath is the rare Alabama snow-wreath. The Shasta snow-wreath is regarded as one of California's rarest plants. It has a beautiful blossom, which appears for just ten days in the spring. It looks like a white spikey puff ball made up of a cluster of stamens rather than petals. A native shrub to California - especially around Lake Shasta - researches studying salamanders were familiar with the plant, but they didn’t know what it was. In 1992, the two botanists - Dean Taylor and Glenn Clifton - were able to discover the plant thanks to the California drought, which caused the waters of Cedar Creek to drop far enough to enable them to access a limestone outcropping. The Shasta snow-wreath was identified after a week of review. In April of this past year, volunteers removed invasive species from the places where the Shasta snow-wreath likes to grow - like along shorelines and canyons around Lake Shasta. Today there are only around 20 populations of Shasta snow-wreath in California.       Thanks for listening to The Daily Gardener, and remember: “For a happy, healthy life, garden every day.”

Democratic Presidential Candidate Dr. JJ Walcutt speaks with Prescott TALKS host, Glen Martin on a special episode of Prescott TALKS

Most people aren't aware of an alternative that was proposed to the United Nations which was never implemented, one that did not bias power into the hands of the few (Security Council) but was actually equitable across the globe.  Mitchell's guest, Glen T. Martin, Ph.D., has been one of the major advocates of the World Constitution & Parliament Association (WCPA) which has also proposed the Constitution for the Federation of the Earth in which the Earth, as a living being, has a voice. Glen T. Martin, Ph.D., is Professor of Philosophy at Radford University in Virginia, USA. He is the founder and Chair Emeritus of the Program in Peace Studies at Radford University. He is President of International Philosophers for Peace (IPPNO) and President of the World Constitution and Parliament Association (WCPA), a worldwide organization that sponsors the Constitution for the Federation of Earth.   Mitchell Rabin is the Founder, President and CEO of A Better World Foundation & Media, with a background in psychology  stress management,  and social entrepreneurship. He is a counselor, and executive coach all as a means of educating and inspiring clients and students alike to lead others by modeling humane, eco-sensitive and integrity-based values.  www.abetterworld.tv   www.mitchellrabin.com --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/abwmitchellrabin/support

On this episode of Victory Over Sin, Mark interviews Glen Martin.Read More →

Another show from the waybackinator of the PBN Archives

One from the waybackinator! This was one of the first shows on PBN!

This is the premiere episode of The Prepper Broadcasting Network. You are going to hear Glen Martin in this first Episode and touch a time long past as the history of our great network began.

A Podcast to Encourage College Students and the World. Erwin interviews Computer Engineer, Glen Martin. Glen Martin is a computer engineer who graduated from UCF in 1993 and currently works creating medical devices. He currently works on a femto laser catarax surgery device. He is a devoted Christian and father of two. This podcast is for college students, especially engineers, who are navigating through career choices. Check out his Website!   For More Info: Vessel Worship Service Wesley at UCF 407-491-1286  Like us on Facebook and check out our live Podcast videos: https://www.facebook.com/wesleyatucf/?ref=bookmarks Follow Erwin on Social Media Facebook Twitter Snapchat: RevErwin

Since this episode originally aired a year ago, traction from animal rights and welfare movements have certainly gained ground for exotic animals in captivity. However, in terms of large landscape-species survival plans, rights and welfare acts can create direct conflict to saving species in the wild: umbrella species and critical players in conserving large landscapes, biodiversity and ecosystems that depend upon them, where extinction of an entire species in the wild V's. an individual, would have devastating consequences. In Game Changer, by award winning environmental reporter Glen Martin, we look at this question as it applies to Africa's megafauna, where the rising influence of the animal rights movement and animal welfare groups could paradoxically lead to their very elimination. Where our wild world's last great populations of wildlife may well be hostages in the battle between those who love them, and those who would save them.

In this episode, we're joined by author Glen Martin to discuss navigation skills for preppers and survivalists. Navigation skills are an often overlooked skill. Partly this is due to the perception of it being a non-sexy skill. And this may also be due to the perceived difficulting in learning and practicing the skill. But it turns out, it’s easier than you might think. And there are some fun tricks. This includes one where your dog tries to tell you which way is north in an exceptionally odd way. ~ Navigation Skills for Preppers Topics Discussed: * His backstory * Why Martin wrote Prepper's Survival Navigation * The case for learning how to navigate overland * Teaching kids about how to navigate overland * Talent vs pure skill * Simple exercises for learning and retaining the skill * Why not simply use a GPS and forget about learning the skill * Wilderness survival tips for in case you get lost ~ Become a supporting member here: http://www.itrh.net ~ Resources from this episode can be found at: http://www.intherabbithole.com/e225  

Edelman Westside Mental Health Center - Dr. Nancy Nowlin-Finch and staff live audience. Carlos discusses facing 35 to life as a 16 year old then going to state prison as a 17 year old. Shot Caller the movie and how substance abuse and mental health affect public safety when individuals are sentenced to prison terms. How restorative justice can change public safety. We discuss the value of avoiding the “jailer” mentality and the benefits of peer mentorship between individuals including mental health professionals knowing their own personal limitations and asking peers for assistance. Check the Box: How to deal with getting gainful employment with a felony record. We discuss the importance of feeling “a part of” something (society)  when released. Daniel’s aunt (Dr. Nowlin-Finch) talks about gaining an understanding of  how incarceration affects a family member. Prison reform movement: Elizabeth Calvin (Human Rights Watch), Just Leadership USA and Glen Martin, #Cut 50, Bikila Ochoa , ARC Director of Policy, Scott Budnik ARC founder and producer of The Hangover Trilogy . SB 9 and the pendulum swinging toward major reform.   www.releasedintocaptivity.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/Released2cptvty Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Releasedintocaptivity/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/releasedintocaptivity/ Email Daniel: danielh@releasedintocaptivity.com Email Carlos: carlosc@releasedintocaptivity.com PayPal: support@releasedintocaptivity.com

A voice outside the jumpsuit Part 1. Daniel interviews Carlos Monte DeLeon who is out of prison but still in CDCR custody with an ankle GPS monitor. Carlos served 17 years on a 19 year sentence he received when he was 15 years old and was released because of SB 260.  Daniel and Carlos met during a JLUSA leadership training at the USC Gould School of Law with Glen Martin and David Mensah. Carlos and Daniel discuss meeting with Human Rights Watch’s Elizabeth Calvin during a recent policy training session at ARC, acceptance, and spreading the word about available resources to the incarcerated .  Daniel briefly discusses his first trip to Sacramento to advocate for SB 394 and SB 395 and participate in the Assembly Public Safety Committee hearing where colleagues Jerome Dixon and Joel Aguilar testified. Sam Lewis, a future guest, stops in and mentions shutting down Rikers Island and turning a juvenile facility into job center. LARP (Los Angeles Re-entry Program) and Troy F. Vaughn.  Bikila Ochoa, Director of Policy at ARC, and Scott Budnick, ARC founder. www.releasedintocaptivity.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/Released2cptvty Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Releasedintocaptivity/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/releasedintocaptivity/ Email Daniel: danielh@releasedintocaptivity.com Email Carlos: carlosc@releasedintocaptivity.com

In this episode of the Survival Medicine Hour, Joe and Amy Alton, aka Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy, welcome Glen Martin, owner and founder of the 50-show strong Preppers Broadcasting Network to talk about his journey and to discuss his new book on Amazon, Prepper's Survival Navigation. One way to put your health in jeopardy is not knowing where the heck you are, so listen in as Amy finds out secrets on how to stay grounded and pointed in the right direction in the wilderness. Also, a question about thyroid problems with the Expert Council with Jack Spirko, with Joe Alton MD answering questions about what to do about thyroid issues in survival scenarios. All this and more on the Survival Medicine Hour! follow us on twitter @preppershow follow us on YouTube @drbones nurseamy

In this episode of the Survival Medicine Hour, Joe and Amy Alton, aka Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy, welcome Glen Martin, owner and founder of the 50-show strong Preppers Broadcasting Network to talk about his journey and to discuss his new book on Amazon, Prepper's Survival Navigation. One way to put your health in jeopardy is not knowing where the heck you are, so listen in as Amy finds out secrets on how to stay grounded and pointed in the right direction in the wilderness. Also, a question about thyroid problems with the Expert Council with Jack Spirko, with Joe Alton MD answering questions about what to do about thyroid issues in survival scenarios. All this and more on the Survival Medicine Hour! follow us on twitter @preppershow follow us on YouTube @drbones nurseamy

This week, we sit down with Glen Martin. Theme song by Ken Fritz and General Joystick. We've got Smooth Hound Smith on Gary's pick of the week! Produced by Jordan Johansen and Gary Branigan.

Since this episode originally aired a year ago, traction from animal rights and welfare movements have certainly gained ground for exotic animals in captivity. However, in terms of large landscape-species survival plans, rights and welfare acts can create direct conflict to saving species in the wild: umbrella species and critical players in conserving large landscapes, biodiversity and ecosystems that depend upon them, where extinction of an entire species in the wild V's. an individual, would have devastating consequences. In Game Changer, by award winning environmental reporter Glen Martin, we look at this question as it applies to Africa's megafauna, where the rising influence of the animal rights movement and animal welfare groups could paradoxically lead to their very elimination. Where our wild world's last great populations of wildlife may well be hostages in the battle between those who love them, and those who would save them.

Are conserving wildlife and protecting animals the same thing? My guest today, award winning environmental reporter, Glen Martin, guides us as this question applies to Africa's mega fauna. Conservation planning of large landscapes and species survival includes the cascades of biodiversity that depend upon them. Animal rights, animal activists, and animal welfare consider each individual life as critical, and that none should die because of us. Animal rights restrictions present a challenging paradox for making long-term species survival and large landscape conservation, workable. Glen, through one-on-one conversations with legendary figures throughout Africa's game management history in wildlife rich range states from E Africa to S.West Africa, “Game Changer” vividly demonstrates how our wild world's last great populations of wildlife may well be hostages in the battle between those who love them, and those who would save them.

The first episode of Friday Night Gaming, a brand new Internet TV Show broadcasting live from the Computer ArenA in Roswell, GA! Unfortunately, due to technical mishaps, the video archive was not saved (that'll teach us to trust third party video providers) so you won't be able to see what the live viewers saw. In this episode, Bobby Blackwolf and Glen Martin from CC Gaming commiserate over EGM's closure and the layoffs of 1up while attendees at the ArenA play Grand Theft Auto IV with our audience. Our scheduled on-site tournament for Soul Calibur IV didn't have any entrants (it's still early in the show's lifespan) so it's being postponed. In the CC Gaming Hardware Spotlight segment, we take apart an Xbox 360 that has disc tray issues. Then we take calls about hardware repair and discuss the new DLC coming to Burnout Paradise, which is our Free Play game for next week. Also, next week, a live on-air demo of Cartoon Network's MMO FusionFall!

The first episode of Friday Night Gaming, a brand new Internet TV Show broadcasting live from the Computer ArenA in Roswell, GA! Unfortunately, due to technical mishaps, the video archive was not saved (that'll teach us to trust third party video providers) so you won't be able to see what the live viewers saw. In this episode, Bobby Blackwolf and Glen Martin from CC Gaming commiserate over EGM's closure and the layoffs of 1up while attendees at the ArenA play Grand Theft Auto IV with our audience. Our scheduled on-site tournament for Soul Calibur IV didn't have any entrants (it's still early in the show's lifespan) so it's being postponed. In the CC Gaming Hardware Spotlight segment, we take apart an Xbox 360 that has disc tray issues. Then we take calls about hardware repair and discuss the new DLC coming to Burnout Paradise, which is our Free Play game for next week. Also, next week, a live on-air demo of Cartoon Network's MMO FusionFall!