Podcasts about fias

Jim and Chris begin with three PSAs on Social Security experiences, then answer questions on fixed indexed annuities with market value adjustments, SPIA payout options for the Minimum Dignity Floor™, and the tax aggregation rule for MYGAs.(11:30) In this PSA Georgette clarifies that her husband, born February 1, received January benefits at full age 70, […] The post Social Security PSAs, FIAs, SPIAs, and MYGAs: Q&A #2525 appeared first on The Retirement and IRA Show.

In this episode, we break down why fixed indexed annuities (FIAs) are gaining renewed attention in today's volatile market. Alissa Hufford, Sales Director at the Crump Annuity Solution Center, joins the podcast to cover key selling points like principal protection amid market volatility, tax-deferred growth, and competitive income options — including lifetime income riders. With interest rates at multi-year highs and clients sitting on record levels of cash, FIAs offer a timely solution for those seeking downside protection and guaranteed income. This conversation gives financial professionals clear language, positioning tips, and insight into why FIAs can be a strong addition to the planning conversation right now.

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Relatório da ONU aponta que redes criminosas do Sudeste Asiático estão se expandindo e assumindo proporções industriais; atos criminosos envolvem fraudes cibernéticas, lavagem de dinheiro e serviços bancários clandestinos, além de mercado ilícitos com venda de dados roubados e serviços de hackeamento.

In this episode, The Annuity Man discussed:  Annuities were never meant to be a market product  The complexity of index options  Misleading sales pitches to avoid listening to  Annuities solve for your specific goals    Key Takeaways:  Fixed indexed annuities were created in 1995 to compete with CD returns, not to provide true market participation. They are fixed annuities issued by life insurance companies, regulated at the state level, and not securities. There are over 750 index option choices and 50+ indices, with complex calculation methods that can change annually. Most index options are one-year long, and the insurance company can modify terms at each anniversary. Common sales pitches like "market upside with no downside" are misleading. Upfront bonuses are essentially marketing tricks, and claims about free long-term care are inaccurate. The most legitimate use is for guaranteed Income Riders. Indexed Annuities should be bought for principal protection, CD-like returns, or future income streams - not for growth. Always solve for specific financial goals and shop for the highest contractual guarantees across carriers.   "If you buy the dream, you're going to own the contractual reality, which means that if you're going to buy them, buy the contractual guarantee." —  Stan The Annuity Man.    Connect with The Annuity Man:  Website: http://theannuityman.com/  Email: Stan@TheAnnuityMan.com  Book: Owner's Manuals: https://www.stantheannuityman.com/how-do-annuities-work YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCXKKxvVslbeGAlEc5sra2g  Get a Quote Today: https://www.stantheannuityman.com/annuity-calculator! 

In this episode of Protect Your Assets, host David Hollander discusses the role of annuities in navigating market volatility and protecting your wealth. He provides an in-depth look at fixed index annuities (FIAs) and multi-year guaranteed annuities (MYGAs), comparing them to other investment options like CDs. The episode also addresses common myths surrounding annuities, including misconceptions about death benefits and fees. Hollander explains the importance of understanding annuity fees, beneficiary designations, and how they can fit into a diversified investment strategy. Tune in for a clear breakdown of how annuities can be used to protect your retirement and help manage risk. You can send your questions to questions@pyaradio.com for a chance to be answered on air. Catch up on past episodes: http://pyaradio.com Liberty Group website: https://libertygroupllc.com/ Attend an event: www.pyaevents.com Schedule a complimentary 15-minute consultation: https://calendly.com/libertygroupllc/scheduleacall/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In this episode of Protect Your Assets, host David Hollander discusses the role of annuities in navigating market volatility and protecting your wealth. He provides an in-depth look at fixed index annuities (FIAs) and multi-year guaranteed annuities (MYGAs), comparing them to other investment options like CDs. The episode also addresses common myths surrounding annuities, including misconceptions about death benefits and fees. Hollander explains the importance of understanding annuity fees, beneficiary designations, and how they can fit into a diversified investment strategy. Tune in for a clear breakdown of how annuities can be used to protect your retirement and help manage risk. You can send your questions to questions@pyaradio.com for a chance to be answered on air. Catch up on past episodes: http://pyaradio.com Liberty Group website: https://libertygroupllc.com/ Attend an event: www.pyaevents.com Schedule a complimentary 15-minute consultation: https://calendly.com/libertygroupllc/scheduleacall/ See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

A crise política está instalada e vai levar o país a eleições. Tudo isto porque o primeiro-ministro se quis furtar a prestar esclarecimentos. Não se quis confrontar com uma comissão de inquérito e a relação com os casinos Solverde parece levantar, inclusive, outras questões: concessões com isenções fiscais, a alteração do traçado do TGV para servir interesses privados, recebimentos de fundos PRR e gasolineiras que pagam milhares de euros à empresa de Montenegro. Nas palavras da comentadora, “há um esquema de biombo parecido com Sócrates”. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Programa completo con Pepa Gea en el que te contamos las noticias del día con Óscar Plaza, la previsión del tiempo con Jorge Granullaque y FIAS 25, y la actualidad deportiva con Félix José Casillas. Reportaje de actualidad con Irene Calderón. De contrabando con Alfonso Javier Ussía. Madrileñismos con el profesor Fernando Vilches. Entrevista a Estela Martín, presidenta de la sección de Igualdad del Ilustre Colegio de la Abogacía de Madrid (ICAM).

Jaume Segalés y su equipo hablan de las viviendas que se van a construir en Cuatro Caminos y del Festival Internacional de Arte Sacro. Hoy en Km0, tras repasar la actualidad informativa y deportiva, profundizamos en los siguientes asuntos: Luz verde a las viviendas del Parque Metro Cuatro Caminos 443 cooperativistas llevan desde 2014 esperando que se construyan sus casas dentro del proyecto urbanístico de las cocheras de Cuatro Caminos. Parece que ahora ya ven la luz al final del túnel. El denominado Parque Metro Cuatro Caminos está ubicado dentro del distrito de Chamberí, junto a la avenida de Reina Victoria, en los terrenos que alojaban las cocheras de Metro, las cuales fueron demolidas en 2021. El Área de Urbanismo municipal, que dirige Borja Carabante, presentará en Comisión un convenio que finalmente parece que será aprobado en el Pleno mañana martes 25 de febrero gracias a los votos de PP y VOX. Supondrá la ratificación del texto definitivo del convenio urbanístico para la gestión y ejecución del Parque Metro Cuatro Caminos, suscrito inicialmente con la cooperativa Residencial Metropolitan y Metro de Madrid. Las obras, cuyo inicio se prevé para principios de 2026, acometerían la construcción de seis edificios, una torre de 100 metros de altura y un gran parque, además de 1.050 plazas de aparcamiento y un gran espacio bajo tierra para el suburbano. Entrevistamos a Desirée del Río, integrante de la Cooperativa Residencial Metropolitan. Festival Internacional de Arte Sacro (FIAS) Organizado por la Consejería de Cultura, Turismo y Deporte de la Comunidad de Madrid, el FIAS celebra su 35ª edición, del 6 de marzo y al 10 de abril, con una programación de 41 conciertos, con 28 estrenos y 9 encargos, repartido en distintos espacios de la ciudad de Madrid y otros municipios de la región. Una iniciativa centrada en la música clásica y antigua, pero donde también tienen cabida otros estilos como el jazz, el folk, el flamenco, el pop o la electrónica de la mano de artistas como Le Parody, Fajardo, la pianista y compositora Clara Peya o el dúo Emilia y Pablo. Entrevistamos al director artístico del festival, Pepe Mompeán.

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Join Chris Norris from Integrity Advisory Solutions and Rush Wilbanks from NLG as they dive deep into annuity products. In this episode, they discuss National Life Group's innovative offerings, highlighting the unique features of the Retire Max Secure 5, Growth Driver 10, and Income Driver 10. Discover the benefits of multi-year guaranteed annuities (MIGAs), fixed indexed annuities (FIAs), and flexible premium indexed annuities. Learn about the updated green sheet process, sales techniques, and potential market opportunities. Stay tuned for insights into customer profiles, the importance of income riders, and strategies for maximizing retirement savings. This episode is a must-watch for financial advisors looking to boost their annuity business.

Já ouviram falar do Caso Fias? Não? Então dá o play e vem conhecer! Quer ver o curta? https://youtu.be/3W0KT78uzcg?si=8QtLxhneLiE351VO Moda ufológica? https://reserva.ink/483449 Seja um apoiador! ⁠⁠⁠https://apoia.se/projetocontatopodcast⁠ ⁠⁠   Você também pode contribuir seguindo e avaliando o podcast nas redes sociais, ajuda muito a chegar em mais pessoas que curtem o conteúdo.   Relatos para: ⁠⁠⁠projetocontatopodcast@gmail.com⁠⁠ Preencha o Questionário Ufológico e o Questionário Paranormal no link abaixo!   ⁠⁠https://linktr.ee/projetocontatopodcast⁠⁠⁠   Apresentação, Edição, Produção, Pauta: Morgan Almeida    Apoiadores:   Saulo Jr Ana Célia Flávio Fernandes Gabriel Andrade Juliana Costa Leandro A. Rodrigo Fernandes Wagner Melo Joab

Learn about fixed index annuities (FIAs) and how they work. Discover the potential benefits and risks of investing in FIAs. Understand the key features to consider when evaluating FIA options.

Learn about fixed index annuities (FIAs) and how they work. Discover the potential benefits and risks of investing in FIAs. Understand the key features to consider when evaluating FIA options.

Jim and Chris sit down to discuss listener questions relating to Social Security benefits, planning with the potential for an SO, funding a 529 savings account, losses in a Roth IRA, and Fixed Indexed Annuities… (9:00) A listener hopes Chris can tell him if having a different name on his Birth Certificate and Social Security […] The post Social Security, Retirement Planning, 529 Savings Accounts, Roth Losses, and FIAs: Q&A #2440 appeared first on The Retirement and IRA Show.

A aventura europeia de Costa e o debate quinzenal onde Montenegro colocou as luvas para o "combate" com Ventura foram os temas da Vichyssoise. A convidada foi a eurodeputada Margarida Marques.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Det er race week med både F1, F2 og F3 fra Barcelona. Vi snakker om hva vi kan forvente denne helgen og ikke minst hva som skjer med FIAs endring av aldersgrense for superlisens. Vi har også med oss Dennis Olsen som var på pallen i helgens 24-timersløp på Le Mans. Med Henning Isdal, Stein Pettersen og Atle Gulbrandsen. Episoden kan inneholde målrettet reklame, basert på din IP-adresse, enhet og posisjon. Se smartpod.no/personvern for informasjon og dine valg om deling av data.

Jim and Chris sit down to discuss listener questions relating to Social Security, 529 Roth conversions, and fixed index annuities (FIAs). (4:45) A listener wonders if his children's Social Security benefits will be reduced by him working longer. (15:45) A listener looks for clarification on calculating spousal Social Security benefits and what happens when you […] The post Social Security, 529 Conversions, FIAs, and RMDs: Q&A #2424 appeared first on The Retirement and IRA Show.

Many financial professionals say annuity products can make sense as one part of a comprehensive financial plan; however, they can also be extremely complex and difficult to use effectively. We get an expert opinion in the latest episode of our Shares podcast! Our host Michael Finke PhD, CFP® welcomes Bobby Samuelson, executive editor of The Life Product Review, for an in-depth look at FIAs, RILAs, and other products that can assist in planning for a diverse client base for life insurance, retirement planning, and other concerns. Find all episodes at TheAmericanCollege.edu/Shares.

In this episode, Alex and Wade answer questions on safe withdrawal rates, annuities, and retirement planning. They discuss the considerations for investing in a Qualified Longevity Annuity Contract (QLAC) and the difference between immediate and deferred annuities. They also explore the use of Single Premium Immediate Annuities (SPIAs) in combination with Fixed Index Annuities (FIAs) and the benefits of buffer assets in reducing sequence risk. Additionally, they address the challenges of finding automatic options for equity investments and provide insights for individuals who are considering retirement but are unsure about their options. Listen now to learn more.   Takeaways Consider the insurance aspect of annuities and view them as a way to protect against longevity risk and provide guaranteed income in retirement. When deciding between investing and buying a QLAC, focus on the insurance benefits and peace of mind rather than potential investment returns. SPIAs and FIAs can be used in combination to provide both guaranteed income and growth potential in retirement. Buffer assets can help reduce sequence risk and allow for a higher withdrawal rate from an investment portfolio. Retirement decisions should not be solely based on financial considerations, but also on personal fulfillment and well-being. Chapters   00:00 Introduction and Q&A on Safe Withdrawal Rate and Annuities 02:06 Considerations for Investing in a QLAC 04:16 Viewing Annuities as Insurance Products 06:07 Choosing Between Investing and Buying a QLAC 08:45 Using SPIA and FIA in Combination 16:59 Using Safe Withdrawal Rate and RMDs 21:37 Buffer Assets and Sequence Risk 24:47 Automatic Options for Equity Investments 28:40 Considering Retirement Options   Links  Registration for the next Retirement Income Challenge is OPEN: Learn more and join us for this LIVE 4-Day event starting on March 4th-7th, 2024 from 12:00 -2:00 PM ET each day by visiting risaprofile.com/podcast  The Retirement Planning Guidebook: 2nd Edition has just been updated for 2024! Visit your preferred book retailer or simply click here to order your copy today: https://www.wadepfau.com/books/    This episode is sponsored by McLean Asset Management. Visit https://www.mcleanam.com/roth/ to download McLean's free eBook, "Is a Roth Conversion Right For You?"

Raíces sonoras brasileñas, cubanas, dominicanas y mexicanas resuenan, en combinación con otros aromas musicales, en el primer tramo del programa, para proseguir con aires italianos reprocesados, la raíz sonora del pueblo baskir, requiebros ibéricos y flamencos poniendo una pica en Nueva York. De esto último hablamos en nuestras #Mundofonews, del festival Paco de Lucía Legacy, que tiene lugar en Nueva York, así como de los conciertos de la Folk Alliance International, también en Estados Unidos, y del FIAS, el Festival Internacional de Arte Sacro de Madrid. Brazilian, Cuban, Dominican and Mexican roots resonate, in combination with other musical aromas, in the first part of the program, to continue with reprocessed Italian airs, the root sounds of the Bashkir people, Iberian experiments and flamencos planting a flag in New York. We talk about the latter in our #Mundofonews, the Paco de Lucía Legacy Festival, which takes place in New York, as well as the concerts of the Folk Alliance International, also in the US, and FIAS, the International Festival of Sacred Art in Madrid. Fred Soul & Zé Luís Nascimento – Les cendres du paradis [+ Vincent Peirani, Sylvain Barou] – Viva Naná Conjunto Guantánamo – Guitarra, tabaco y ron – Guitarra, tabaco y ron [single] Xiomara Fortuna – – Rosa y azul – Fiesta latina [V.A.] Mariachi Los Camperos – El toro antejuelo Ninfa Giannuzzi e Valerio Daniele – Rodo ce agàpi – Amartìa Justin Adams & Mauro Durante – Red earth – Still moving Jorge Pardo & Chano Domínguez [+ Javier Colina, Tino Di Geraldo] – Zyriab – 10 de Paco Shakir Zaripov – Beiyeu koithere – Әl​ş​ә​y: Bashkir music [V.A.] Anisa Vakhitova, Niyaz Gizzatullin – Shaura kilen – Әl​ş​ә​y: Bashkir music [V.A.] Cabra – En lo más alto del cielo / Mudanza del niño perdido – Vol. 1 (Jorge Pardo & Chano Domínguez [+ Javier Colina, Tino Di Geraldo] – Almoraima – 10 de Paco 📸 Shakir Zaripov

'Tengo tres estrellas y veinte cruces' es un disco que contiene los Poemas del cante jondo de Lorca. Fue una petición del FIAS que han llevado a cabo el cantante, guitarrista y compositor de Rufus T. Firefly, Víctor Cabezuelo; la cantaora Ángeles Toledano, el productor y guitarrista Javier Martín y la baterista de jazz Gloria Maurel. Juntos mezclan poesía, cante y sintetizadores para dar forma a un disco precioso y conmovedor que comentamos con ellos. Escuchar audio

Summary In this episode of That Annuity Show, Bobby Samuelson, President of Life Innovators, discusses the current state of the annuity market and the challenges and opportunities it presents. He highlights the entry of new companies into the market and the different strategies they employ. Bobby also discusses the role of proprietary indices in annuities and the need for innovation in product development. He emphasizes the importance of technology in enabling advisors to tell the annuity story more effectively. Overall, Bobby provides insights into the changing dynamics of the annuity market and the evolving expectations of customers. Takeaways New companies are entering the annuity market, with many focusing on multi-year guarantee annuities (MYGAs) as an entry point. The annuity market is highly competitive, and companies need to differentiate themselves through innovation in product development. Proprietary indices have played a significant role in the annuity market, but there is a need for more innovation and a focus on the underlying product structure. The annuity market faces challenges in attracting and retaining customers, and companies need to adapt to changing customer expectations and preferences. Technology can play a crucial role in enabling advisors to sell annuities more effectively and reach new markets. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Focus of Bobby Samuelson 03:45 New Entrants in the Annuity Market 07:43 Competition and Innovation in the Annuity Market 13:42 The Role of Proprietary Indices in Annuities 20:31 Challenges and Opportunities in the Annuity Market 27:12 Changing Customer Expectations in the Annuity Market 30:44 The Role of Technology in the Annuity Market 35:37 Conclusion and Closing Remarks Paul Tyler (00:03.644) Hi, this is Paul Tyler and welcome to another episode of That Annuity Show. Tisa, good to see you. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (00:09.89) Good to see you, Paul. Good morning, everyone. Paul Tyler (00:11.708) Yeah, we're having a lot of fun at work these days.  Paul Tyler (00:29.411) Ramsey Atlanta is like, I don't want to know. I'm not sure I want to know what Atlanta is like. Ramsey Smith (00:32.292) It's sunny. It's chilly, but it is bright sunny day. Can't complain. Paul Tyler (00:36.464) Okay. All right. Bobby, hey, listen, first of all, thanks for coming back. It's always good, you know, when guests, we have guests on once and they say yes to coming back. It's been a couple years, but we are lucky and fortunate to have Bobby Samuelson, President of Life Innovators, on our show. And Bobby, hey, just tell, it brings up the speed, you know, tell us, you know, what's your focus these days? Bobby (00:36.797) Same in Charlotte. Bobby (00:50.781) See you back. Bobby (01:02.789) Yeah, sure. So I've been doing, um, obviously worked at midlife Bright House for a few years. Less than 2017 started up a newsletter that I actually had done prior to going to Bright House. So I still do that called the life product review. That's, you know, three to 4,000 words every week on what's going on in the life insurance side of the world. Um, and then we also started up an annuity product development company. And so basically we serve as an outsourced chief product officer to small and midsize insurance companies. And so a lot of these newer entrants getting into the space. can't hire product talent, can't find product talent. And so they use us as their chief product officer effectively. And then we've also picked up, I'd say a few kind of insurance companies that are either doing other types of products and want to get into annuities or maybe are already doing annuities, but haven't done for example, an FIA or a RYLA or even a VA and they hire us to help them build those products. And then along the way with that, we kind of realized that wait a second, we're doing, you know the life product review, can we do something? on kind of what's going on in the competitive landscape on the annuity side of the world. And so we started a newsletter called the annuity edge. And that is basically a weekly digest of, you know, everything going on in the competitive side of the annuity world. And so we, we scan, we look at all the filings that come through the States and the compact, we look at all the stuff that comes through competitive scan. We look at stuff that comes through, you know, the various rate providers, plus the conversations we have with carriers. And we basically write all that up and sort of a, a narrative kind of format to try to tell the story of. What's going on every week in annuities. And, you know, look, we've had, we've had plenty to write about. Like there's tons of stuff having, it feels like every week there's something going on. New products, significant rate changes. We usually do like a market update every week because the rates have been changing so much. We also run every week a weekly index spotlight. So we go on and take, you know, there's 180, uh, engineered indexes. That's what we call them engineered indexes in the market. We take one every week and sort of dissect it. Talk about. why it worked well over a certain period of time, why it probably didn't work well in 2022, how it looks like the index is calibrated kind of going forward, and try to again, kind of tell the story. And so in our view, there's so many places in annuities where you can get rates, and there's places where you can get, you know, flyers, and there's places where you can get kind of raw materials, but our job is to craft all that into a story so that people can sort of digest it. And so we got six people on the Life Innovators team, we all kind of chip in different. Bobby (03:22.221) sections of the annuity edge. So I'd say most of what we've been working on these days, besides just product development, it's just cranking out that annuity edge, two or 3000 words every week on what's going on in the, in the, in the annuity market. And it's been, like I said, no shortage of things to write about. In fact, Nassau is going to be featured in next week's edition. The new income writer you guys released. Yes, we were just ripping it apart yesterday and we're going to write a little bit. So I'll probably, I'll send you a little draft before you, before we release that. So. Paul Tyler (03:45.44) Good. Paul Tyler (03:49.672) Oh, oh, tremendous. Well, yeah, first of all, thank you. And we, you know, we talk a little bit about the launch and kind of where this is headed. I'll lead off because wow, are there a lot of threads to pull in what you just talked about, but let's sort of talk about MyGa's new entrance. Like if I just stuck there, you know, and kind of look back at 2023. Man, do we have a lot of new entrants coming in here. I think, no, I think my guess, and it's not just about my guess, I think this was an easy entry point for new companies. You think we're going to see new names, a lot of new names this year, or will we see those new names now expanding into the FIA space? Bobby (04:15.31) Oh yeah. Bobby (04:31.973) Yeah, both. Um, you know, when we talk to companies that are not in our business, that are looking to get in our business, I'd say there's, you know, two or three different playbooks that they're all kind of executing on. Some of them are, are more asset oriented. Some are more operational oriented. They actually really want to run an insurance company. They like the insurance company economics, which, which makes sense to others are more liability oriented, they're trying to figure out, okay, if I take these assets on, for example, you know, longevity, mortality, morbidity, sort of the health. metrics side of the world, or even interest rate risk. Um, maybe they think they can do better with it. And so every, every new entrance has sort of a different angle on, on what they want to do in the insurance space. But for most of these companies, MYGAs is sort of seen as the natural entry point. And it's just such a commoditized market. If you come in with a hot rate, no one's going to, you know, people don't need to have like a 30 year relationship with an insurance company to sell a MYGAs product. You can kind of get in, sell a MYGAs, um, you know, call it a day. And so I think that's, that's. Ramsey Smith (05:26.348) Hmm. Bobby (05:30.481) the appeal of the market. I think it's also the danger of the market because it is so commoditized. So some of these companies have a hot rate and then all of a sudden it can flip to the other direction. And they end up kind of feeling the case usurped by other companies that get in the space. And so every company doesn't say most companies don't view my guy as their permanent strategy. They view it to your point as sort of like, get in, get the new business operations and tech kind of get the skids greased on that. And then once we get the get, get our Business sorted out, then we can start to pivot over to the real prize, which is, which is FIA and there's a variety of reasons why companies view that as the real prize. Uh, that pivot is really, really hard. So the joke that I make to insurance companies when they ask me about sort of how long do we need to wait until we go sell FIA, I said, well, listen, let me give you an example. So I can go out to this track in the school across the street from my house and I can, and I can run a 400. Okay. And you can run a 402. Okay. Neither of us are going to be in the Olympics. So even though we're doing the same activity as Olympians, we're not doing it to the same degree. So if you want to make the jump from my get an FAA, that's like you go into the track, my gets going to the track and running a pretty quick lab, selling up, you know, $8 billion a year of FIA is like being in the Olympics. And so every company comes in and says, Oh, well, we'll just going to do some my, and then we're going to sell a billion dollars of FAA. And it's like, yeah, that's like literally me going to the track and then trying out for the Olympics. Like that is a much harder, longer process. You know, then people think, so I think there is a little bit of realism now in the market on how hard it is to make that pivot from my God to FIA. That being said, when we get calls every week or an hour week, every month from some company that's either not in this business or it's kind of parallel ancillary to this business, looking to get into the space, buying a shell company, you know, buying one of the many companies that are on the block right now. And so I do think we will see more entrance getting in. Um, and I think that's generally a good thing. I mean, annuities are. Effectively a financial product. So more companies in more competitive rates, more competitive environments, probably pretty good for customers. Is it going to be great for all these companies and their own economics? That's to some degree a separate question. Like I think, I think the jury is still out on whether or not it's this playbook can be repeated over and over and over again, but, but there are plenty of companies out there trying to give it a shot and I think, I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. Ramsey Smith (07:43.616) So let me ask you this, and I've had the similar observation. I mean, my view is that the annuity market, MYGAs and FIAs, it's a pretty established market. It's very competitive. Leadership in the market sort of rotates as different companies decide they really wanna focus on it. So in some ways, it's a vibrant market, especially in the last couple of years, but it's, I guess, in sort of blue ocean, red ocean terms. Bobby (08:13.281) Yeah, it's red. Yeah. Ramsey Smith (08:13.32) Right? It's a place where there's already a lot of people. Yeah, it's very red. So I've been surprised as I talked to sort of aspirational players, I've been surprised at how many of them want to jump into this space. And I'm just wondering why you think that is, why they aren't looking for greener pastures. Bobby (08:33.957) think there's an established playbook, honestly set down by a theme that this can work. And by the way, I think NASAL is becoming another kind of proof point of if you stick with it long enough and you kind of are consistent enough, you can build a real franchise, you know, in this space, even though to your point, Ramsey, it's total red ocean. And so what I hear a lot of times, and this is kind of a joke, but it's not really a joke, is every time we talk to one of these guys and maybe you have the same experience. Ramsey Smith (08:44.405) Yeah. Bobby (09:00.945) They all say, well, yeah, but we do a great job managing assets. We're kind of better than everybody else and we've got some special stuff. And so there is, I think there's also a little bit of this. Maybe you call it arrogance, maybe call it optimism. Maybe you call it, you know, realist them that they've had a great track record. Some of these, especially as asset managers come in and sort of say, yeah, but we've got the secret sauce and our secret sauce works really well with, you know, annuity liability, uh, structures. And so, you know, we've got the raw materials and what we really need to do is just kind of package it up and cook the meal. And then everybody, all the diners are going to love it. And I think, and so I think everybody kind of has a view that they've got some sort of special ingredient that they're going to sprinkle into the, to the meal to make it work, but to your point, I mean, it's very much red ocean and that's why we, I try to communicate that to all of our prospective clients that this is really, really hard. And a lot of times I feel like I'm kind of the guy raining on everybody's parade in this conversation because everyone gets excited about the opportunity to be the next to theme. And my point is, yeah, but a theme was here 10 years before you were, and the world looked completely different back then replicating that playbook is going to take another 10 years. And so don't expect to show up and have success overnight. And by the way, you say you have special sauce. Everyone I talked to says they have special sauce. If they didn't think they had special sauce, they wouldn't be buying a life insurance company and trying to get into the space, because to your point, it is heavily commoditized. Ramsey Smith (10:13.862) Mm. Bobby (10:19.497) Over time, we'll find out who really has the right playbook. And by the way, I think it's a lot more than what most of these asset managers and private equity firms think they think we've got great raw materials, we're going to cook a great meal. Well, in order to do that, you've got to have a great chef. And what that means, and you know, Paul, from your vantage point is you got to have great distribution relationships. You've got to have compelling product. You've got to have a great marketing story. You've got to have great systems and processes. Your new business needs to be flawless. Your agent portal needs to be good. Your client portal needs to be good. There's branding. corporate story ratings. Like when you really think about it, yes, ingredients are a big piece of the puzzle, but the actual construction of the meal is where a lot of these firms, I think, kind of miss the importance of that. And so they come in thinking, well, I've got great raw ingredients. I'm going to be, even though it's Red Ocean, I'll make it work. Not realizing I've got to assemble a team to make this work. And that's where I think the jury's still out on some of these firms is do they have the staying power so that over the next 10 years, they'll figure out how to really come in. Kind of build that persistent business. Some will and some won't. And by the way, I mean, we've seen some fantastic examples of where this has worked recently. Like I would throw a speed out there. A speed is a great example of a company that kind of came out of nowhere and has built a brand and has fantastic processes, like they're sticking around very clearly. Um, I'd say, you know, I've Dex this is sort of showing signs of that too. Other firms are much more transactional and those are different paths, right? Those are different. They're making different choices. Paul Tyler (11:22.761) Yeah. Bobby (11:44.061) I think we're going to see that again, play out over the next few years and how that, how that stuff works out. Paul Tyler (11:49.784) Yeah, I've heard really good things about the speed of what Lew's doing there. I think it's a real interesting company. I think I saw it in some of our stats. I think they did like two billion dollars of sales or something last year. It's impressive. Yeah, Bobby, thanks for the high praise. It's hard. This business is a... It's a hard business. Now, I've had the opportunity to do this twice. Once with F&G when we rebrand, bought it from Old Mutual, took it to a certain point. team there has done a spectacular job taking it to the next level. Got the opportunity with TISA to do it a second time. And I think to your point, where are you starting from and when are you starting from it? Right? Like the starting point with F&G, you know, in 2011 was very different than, you know, Phoenix in 2016. And the market's changed, right? The distribution environment has changed. The product has changed a lot. Bobby (12:21.201) Yeah, they have. Paul Tyler (12:48.156) I do think the one thing that, you know, what remains constant, that's always a good opportunity, is to your point, it's persistence and consistency is incredibly valuable in this marketplace. Big splash, high rates, yeah. So, if we shift gears to product, maybe for a few minutes, you mentioned your focus on proprietary indices are a lot. We have a lot. We have quite a few in Bobby (13:00.217) Yep. Yeah, I completely agree. Paul Tyler (13:18.108) I would say the bloom came off the rose in the pandemic when we saw incredibly high volatility and then we started to see high rates, which allowed companies, yes, on the MYGAs side to offer high rates, but then also on the FII side, all of a sudden we could offer much higher participation rates on conventional indices like the S&P 500. Where are we headed this year? Bobby (13:42.349) Yeah, we, uh, we, as a firm draw a distinction between product development and index development. And those are two totally different things. Um, and so we, as a firm don't do much in the index space. We, we write about them. We watch them, but when our clients say, Hey, what indexes do you guys like? We go, we don't, whoa, whoa. That's not our business. You can put any index you want to into your FIA. And if you pick one that is optimized for back tests and is not going to work well in the future, that's. Kind of on you, right? We're not, we're not. So, so I think from our point of view, we're trying to be more agnostic. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people were not agnostic. I think there was a big story coming in really 2015 and kind of beyond, maybe even going back to 2012, this, this narrative that these indexes were going to completely change the economics of the product, illustrations, you know, kind of seemed to back that up when you got FIAs illustrating the top FIA right now illustrates at 33%. So when you think about a, a principal protected non-registered product, yes, that's real Ramsey. non-registered product illustrating at 33% returns. That is telling, we are very far away at that point from the traditional FIA story of downside protection, upside potential fixed income alternative. We have now stretched somewhere deep into this idea that FIA can be an equity replacement with no risk. And I think the FIA world effectively levered up on that concept. because of the illustration regulations and because of all the money to be made in those indexes and because advisors were looking for a new story to tell. There was a lot of reason. It wasn't just one cause where all these calls kind of lined up. And of course the banks and asset managers are more than happy to, to supply what is effectively an infinite number of indexes into the market. I mean, the joke I always make on stage is we've got 180 there in FIA and IUL products, what is the possible number of indexes that could be made? And the answer is what's infinite. You can create an infinite number of indexes. And so this is just a very small subset. The subset, by the way, that illustrates well and the back test well, and that, and that carriers felt like had a good enough story to put in there, put in their products. So I think, I think we as an industry levered up really hard on that. Um, and it worked great in a low rate environment because you could show the high par rates, even though people didn't realize, yeah, you get a higher par rate on an index that has very low intrinsic equity participation. And so the effective result is actually very similar to if you just got a true par rate on the S and P, but it was sort of gussied up and other, you know, the fixed income sleeve was adding some. Bobby (16:06.565) some alpha on the illustration. Like you kind of, your Sharpe ratio looks really high on these things. So anyway, we levered up on that. Yeah. 2020 was an issue for sure, but most indexes were actually positive in 2020. So at least, at least they sort of showed, okay, not compared to the West, where the S and P was, but they sort of showed, okay, 2022 to me was the year where everything sort of fell apart because all these indexes, most of them had pushed into long duration, fixed income that got crushed and then the equity component crap got crushed, you know, 21 comes around S and P has an amazing year. I'm sorry. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (16:17.422) Thank you. Bobby (16:35.729) 2023 comes around, S&P has an amazing year, but these indexes lag. Why is that? Well, because the way that it happened was you had a few stocks in the S&P that drove the return and a lot of these indexes were either multi-asset indexes or calibrated towards low volatility or maybe even equal market cap weighted exposure to equities, but that didn't work in 23. And, and at the same time we had rates going up for most of the year and most of them were allocated there and so they get crushed and so to me, 23, 23 is actually the year of like disillusionment. 2022 is everything went down and so did these indexes. Oh, well, 2023 is like. Wait a second. You know, we were supposed to have a great year this year and we didn't. Why, why did that happen? So what I've seen this year is all the, all the banks and as a managers have been coming out with kind of next generation concepts that don't use long duration fixed income and have higher volatility targets or use volatility overlays for their, I mean, sorry, use the duration overlays for the fixed income sleep. Like they're trying to sort of, or they just get out of fixed income all together and just use cash. They're trying to sort of say, it's sort of like when my kids don't apologize, even though they're effectively apologizing. Okay. So it's like an effective apology of saying, we're sorry for all this stuff we gave you in the past, we're going to fix it in the future with this new variant, solving the problem of 2023 or 2022, you know, for 2024 and beyond. Okay. Well, that just means there's gonna be new problems that these new indexes aren't contemplating that will show up in the future. And so from a product standpoint, you know, if you were to say what, you know, what was innovative over the last 10 years, so much of it revolved around those indexes. And That I think what we're seeing is that was not innovation that was reshuffling and creating new trade-offs that now are showing their teeth. And people are going to your point, Paul, like, well, why don't I just go back to the simple stuff like SMP 500 or like you guys have a NASDAQ sleeve, like why not just go back to a NASDAQ. Let's go back to the basics. And what's interesting is for a lot of the new indexes that we track, a lot of those indexes are going back to simpler structures. I was looking at one yesterday that. The old version of it used to be sort of a long duration fixed income equity allocation. Now it's just pure equities and cash. So effectively all it is just a par rate on the S and P 500 stylized as an excess return index with a decrement on it as something different. Well, all that is, it's just exposure to the S and P with potentially a slightly more stable, you know, par rates. And so anyway, that being said, like. Ramsey Smith (18:40.512) Mm-hmm. Bobby (18:53.573) I think that's not innovation. I think where we need to go as an industry is, okay, what does the chassis of the future look like? And I think that's where it's really, really hard. So one of the things we tell customers, our name is Life Innovators. Theoretically, that means we should do innovative stuff. We have built some really innovative products. They have had trouble selling in the market because at the end of the day, most people who sell annuities just want to drop a ticket and move on. They don't want to explain, they don't want to learn something new, they don't want to go figure out a new story, they just want to do what they've been doing and drop the ticket and move on. So I think... Part of the reason indexes were so attractive as an innovation substitute was it didn't require the advisors to change their story at all. But real innovation requires a little bit of work. And so I think where's the blue ocean kind of back to your comment, Ramsey, like it is an innovative products, but the challenge in our business is agents and IMOs don't want innovative products. They say they do, but they're actually don't because it messes with the system and the system works really well. And so. You know, like give me innovation on the very fine little edges. Give me innovation that makes it illustrate better. Give me innovation that pays me more comp, but don't give me innovation that actually forces me to change my story and educate advisors because that takes time, energy and effort, and I'd rather just keep dropping tickets and move on. And I think that's a little bit of the challenge here is like the blue ocean's hard to get because everybody's making so much money in the red ocean and they don't really want to go shift over to the new stuff. So that's a little bit of where I think we're at a break point is like we, the world has changed. Our products need to change too. That is not just index development, it's product development. And yet that's the hardest thing, frankly, this industry has to do. And it takes a long time for that to work. Ramsey Smith (20:31.784) Yeah, you know, I think that, sorry, Tisa, let me just, I wanna, I'll come back. But this, in my view, this ultimately mirrors some of the same things you see in the mutual fund industry, right? Like, you know, active versus passive, versus passive funds, thematic funds. At the end of the day, like, the storytelling part of it is just part of the ethos of... Tisa Rabun-Marshall (20:32.063) Yep. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (20:36.462) Sure. Ramsey Smith (20:58.844) of personal finance, I would argue even institutional at times, certainly personal finance. And so I think that, I think it's not unique to this industry. I think you see it sort of, you know, across the board. I would ask, you know, so what do some of these, what do some of these chassis of the future look like? So what is it that, what are some of the things you suggested that you think are a better solution but are a little bit early because people need to... Because the people that sell them need to better understand how they work. Bobby (21:30.277) Yeah, great question. And by the way, I completely agree. I love the active versus passive analogy for engineered indexes versus like the S and P 500. And I actually make the joke that these engineered indexes aren't even active. They're algorithmic, right? You set them up and then you're hands off. So at least with an active manager, they can change their strategy along the way, as long as they stay within the fund mandate, but these indexes, like you set it up in 2011 or 2012, you can't go in and change the index rules. You got to create a new version of it, but you can't go in and like, Ramsey Smith (21:39.132) Yeah. Bobby (22:00.005) So it's sort of, it's almost like a different category, but I totally agree. It's it's we've got ebbs and flows on that product chassis, you know, they're tricky because we have these defined categories in the industry. So let me give you one that I think is kind of interesting that we've seen more of, uh, this sort of idea that you can do is across between a my go and an FIA. And this idea of like a, we, we haven't got a good analogy on this. Everyone's calling a mafia, right? Like a multi-year FIA, multi-year guarantee FIA, make FIA. No one knows what to call it. Ramsey Smith (22:06.613) Yeah. Ramsey Smith (22:27.649) Alright. Bobby (22:28.297) But if you think about it, it's a logical concept. So for example, what is a my go? My go is a marketing term for a fixed deferred annuity with guarantee option periods. Okay, well, what do you call an FIA product that has, for example, a five year or seven year or even a 10 year guarantee on the cap level? That's a my go. It's a multi-year guarantee annuity. We're just guaranteeing the cap. We're not guaranteeing a return, we're guaranteeing the cap. So that's an interesting concept. You can't do that when interest rates are super low, the yield isn't there for it. With. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (22:28.462) Thanks for watching! Ramsey Smith (22:48.748) Hmm. Bobby (22:56.133) The current environment, you can get away with that. We see more and more companies doing things like that or combining sort of base guarantees with some sort of guaranteed index exposure on top. American Life has done this, Ibexas has done this. We feel the companies out there that have kind of done this. That's a category that sort of fits between. On the variable side, think about like a contingent deferred annuity. CDAs have been the next big thing for years. And there's all the logic in the world for why CDAs make sense, right? You can have separately managed accounts when you can layer a guarantee on top of it. Like if you describe that to an RAA, they would all say, I'd rather have a CDA than to talk about variable annuities. And yet CDAs never go anywhere because it's a change in process. There are some new rules built around it. Like, and people don't ultimately want to make the, yes, you're going to say something. Ramsey Smith (23:43.268) Oh, well, I'm going to say that that's a battle over who owns the assets. Right. So if it's a, if it's a CDA, then the RRA keeps the assets. If, if it's not a CDA, then the carrier has the assets and, you know, just. Yeah. So this chair has company does. And so, and, and my, you know, my only, I like conceptually, I like the CDA, but from a risk management perspective, I mean, you're, you're selling, you're just selling pure tail risk. Right. And, and, and so. Bobby (23:47.288) Yeah. Bobby (23:53.921) Insurance company, yeah, totally agree. Ramsey Smith (24:12.454) I like it less from a risk management perspective. Just my two cents. Bobby (24:14.777) It's, you know, it's interesting. We have a client who's done, yeah, we've done clients who've done CDA or has done a CDA and I say, if you do it right, the pricing actually looks a lot like a VA. It's not, it's not, it's not as much of a crop. There's not as much of just tail as you think, cause you can actually set up some structures on the, on the fund. Um, and, and also if he has a lot of cross-pollination between like the M&E, the fund expenses and the rider fee, whereas you have to be very explicit with that on the CDA. But to your point, it's a different structure. It's a different owner. It's kind of a different ownership mentality. Ramsey Smith (24:28.529) Yeah. Ramsey Smith (24:37.347) Yeah. Bobby (24:42.673) So I say that's one, you know, RYLA versus VA, we're seeing blurred lines there too, like equitable, huge in the RYLA space, where they are now adding RYLA funds to some of their traditional VA contracts. Like, again, why do we have a separate category for RYLA? Really all that is just a subset of variable annuities. So those are the sorts of things there. And then on the income side, you've got all these ideas of like, how do you get work-side income type products? How do you get sort of the built-in defined income features inside of group plans? Like... That whole world is trying to get traction. There's all sorts of issues there. I'll give you one that's personal for me. We built an FIA product that effectively has a lot of the characteristics of a RYLA, but it's a non-registered product. And so it's an FIA that allows you to have downside exposure without piercing principle. We call it a FYLA, right? It's kind of a joke, because it's not really a category either, but it's somewhere between an FIA and a RYLA. There's no trade-offs. Paul Tyler (25:33.088) Hmm. Bobby (25:37.893) So if you're a producer and you want to sell, you know, 0% floors, just like a normal FIA, you can do it. If you want to have negative floors, you can have access. So it's a technological advancement in that it gives you all the features and benefits of an FIA with some of the features and benefits of a RYLA with no trade-offs. And yet people are choking on the fact that it's just a little bit slightly different than a normal FIA product. And it's like, Yes, but it gives you this ability to have these annual reviews with clients where you can talk about risk appetite and you can allow, you know, clients who've had great gains can put some of that at risk, get way more upside and allows you to look more and more like equities over time. Like it opens up this incredible conversation from a planning standpoint customers and in terms of real returns, we have two academic papers showing that these outperform FIAs all day every day because of the larger risk exposure does not matter. Agents who get it love it. Most agents are like it, this, this is a little bit different. Ramsey Smith (26:11.052) Mm-hmm. Bobby (26:33.853) And I'm a busy over here selling like my normal FIA with this, you know, index that I like talking about. And so like, don't, don't bother me with any different. I'm, I'm busy. I'm happy to do what I'm doing. And that's, I think the challenge in this space is there are clear. Chassis improvements we can make. Um, and again, I even argue this NASL income writer you guys came out with. It allows us sort of higher upfront with a lesson to tail. Like that's a chassis improvement. North American control X chassis improvement allows multiple income streams all at once. Whether advisors care about it is completely a separate question. And whether they're going to take time to learn about it. Again, completely separate question. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (27:12.534) Thanks, Bobby. I want to go back. So let me just say, I like this restaurant analogy that you were playing with, special sauce and the meals and all of that. So I kind of want to go back to that a little bit where you're talking about new entrants into the market and why they were coming in and what they think they can offer. There's no special sauce. We're innovatish who are not really innovating. And talk a little bit about the customer. So I'm going to call the customer the diner, right? And can you talk a little bit about what you're seeing changing there? We've talked about what's constant and what's maybe not changing, but I'm curious what you've seen, maybe what you're advising your clients on. If it's not going to be product-based, what are their expectations? Are they looking for the line cook to become the personal chef? Where are you seeing this shift in what the diners, the customers, investors are looking for from these carriers outside of product? Bobby (28:04.205) Yeah, great, great question. Um, great question. So, so who is the customer? I think is always the operative question here. And I'd love to say that people buying the annuities of the customers, but y'all know that's not the case, right? The customers are the advisors who are selling this stuff. And then, and then in a lot of ways, kind of, and especially in our world, right? The IMO channel, it's, it's the upline on what's the IMO and, and they're the ones who are really kind of consuming, if you will, the meals we're creating. And I want to be clear too, I'm a believer in product innovation. And I do think that's a piece of the puzzle, but it's, it's the way you build long-term market share, not short-term market share. So, so I think there is always and always must be an innovative product angle to what you're doing, not because you're going to sell a lot of it out of the gate, but because over the next 10 years, Paul, to your point on persistency and consistency in the business and stickiness, that's how you build long-term stickiness, but you can't, you can't expect mass adoption, you know, on, on day one. So what do they, what do they want? What they, what I think they want. So increasingly it's changing a little bit. What I think they want is they want simple processes. Like we, as speed is just a great example of this. They have a fantastic new business process and their advisors who just love doing. Working with the speed of because of the process. And so I think, I think simplification of the process is part of it. Um, I think it's a big piece of it. I think, I think a corporate story matters too. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (29:20.203) easily. Bobby (29:26.181) You know, feeling like they're connected to the company, feeling like there are people there that they like, like this is a thing today, a relationship business that matters and that counts for a lot. Um, and then I think they are looking for stories to tell in terms of product to fill niches that they may not fill. Today are kind of around the edges. Um, but look, that's not, that leaves a lot of open turf that I think is grabbed by the incumbents. And so that's why, even though yes, the top five are always trading share, the top five are pretty stable. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (29:32.59) Thank you. Bobby (29:56.633) Right. In the FIA world, it's, it's kind of a theme, Allianz American equity. Like, you know, those companies stay up there kind of for a re Sam and like, they stay up there for a reason, which is they've already got the mind share on all the, like all the main dishes are covered. We're, we're dabbling in the appetizers, the desserts and the cocktails, but, but they're sort of cooking the main dishes. And I think that's a little bit of where, you know, for a lot of companies, they kind of realize where they are in the meal. Um, and recognizing that going in and trying to say, like, don't sell Allianz is, is very, very difficult. versus having something that tells a nice story for the customers where Allianz is not a fit. And that's where I think most of these companies were kind of trying to say, okay, how do I work kind of work around some of this stuff? Yeah, competing heads up against Allianz and Athene is just exceedingly difficult, especially Athene these days, it's almost impossible, frankly. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (30:31.523) Thank you. Yeah, around that. Paul Tyler (30:44.004) Yeah. Well, Bobby, I know we're kind of close to the top of the time. We will not do this topic justice, but technology. And first of all, thank you so much for coming out to our Retar Tech event, April 8th through 10th in Las Vegas. This will be great. Great to see you in person and have you on our panel talking more about this. So people listening want to hear more about it, come out to Las Vegas, join us in person. We'll do a couple of shows out there live as well. We'll have to get people involved. So you mentioned process with Aspida. Now, where does technology fit in this process? Now, I'm not going to go deep into our product because I also want to make it easy for our compliance department, not to have to review this stuff, but we're doing something different. You kind of said that. Now, how do you get agents to do something different, make it real easy? I would say we've got a three-prong strategy here on the tech side. So we've got an interesting partnership with Life Yield. He's been sort of managing this where You've got an advisor who's more of a financial planner. We've got a tool where our product kind of plugs right in. You know, Sheryl Moore saw it. She really liked it. The other end, we've got these retirement checks. Like I can email you a check to Bobby Samuelson, show you viscerally, here are two checks you'll get. Higher amount on this date, lower amount on this date. And we've got something in the middle, which is a generative AI platform. Ties and I are having just a fun time working it through our risk management department, but... which will help you look, you're going to do a lot of emails and content. How do you position this and super easily sell a product? Where do you see tech fitting here? You know, for again, our looking, I'm going to look at our customers as agents for this conversation. Bobby (32:25.949) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, what you just described are ways to help them tell the story more efficiently and more effectively. And I think that's a big piece of it. I think for a lot of companies though, it's just literally not screwing up the application process. Like, don't ever complicate it. It's having good EAP, it's having good reporting, it's having a way for them to go check in on a case status, it's having a way for them to see what's going on with the 1035 exchange. It's a lot of blocking and tackling, and that's where I think a lot of companies kind of. Like you got to get that stuff right first before you can do all the things you guys are talking about. Um, but that being said, yeah, I do. I am a big believer that tech is a part of the enablement process here. On the flip side of that, a lot of these agents are 55, 60 years old. Their clients are 55, 60, 65 years old. Like tech, you know, you gotta, you gotta kind of do tech on their terms. And I think that's a little bit of the dance here is like, how do you create tech that is attracted to them and that they can get their arms around without over, overburdening them to some degree. Um, With some of this stuff, what gets me excited too, is thinking about new markets for our products. And I see this on the annuity side and the life side too, like how does tech get you to new markets? And I think that's the part of the industry is just now starting to kind of figure, figure out. Um, and it is not traditional advisors. It's, it's younger advisors. And look, younger advisors do business differently than older advisors. When I talk to younger advisors, most of them have, you know, virtual practices that unimaginable to advisors that are 60 plus years old. to think about that back when they were in their thirties. And so there's just a very different feel for younger advisors. And I don't think most of those advisors are working with on the annuity side, annuity customers yet, right? Like if you're 35 years of working with people your own age, there's some exceptions to that. That's where we see, so on the life side, I see a lot more of this sort of tech sort of integration and enablement going on because it's younger customer, younger advisor that's coming for annuities. It's just going to be a few years out. And I think. The investments you guys are making and other companies are making is laying the groundwork for that going forward. I mean, if we pin our hopes on independence, insurance only agents, selling annuities forever, that is a kind of in the old school way, that is a shrinking market. It'll always be there, but it's a shrinking market. These are great products. These do fantastic things for families and for people. We need to get the story out. We can't be wedded to distribution that works a certain way. We've got to broaden that. I think. Bobby (34:45.285) You can't do that without thinking about tech enablement. Um, and so that does get me excited as a product guy. It's not really in my wheelhouse as much, but it does spur some interesting questions about, okay, if we know innovation kind of hits the wall, sometimes with traditional advisors. If you switch to more tech enabled, can you do things in product that used to be kind of unimaginable, but we'll work in these new environments. And I've got a couple of clients where that's exactly the market strategy is use tech with different products that would not fly in the normal space. Ramsey Smith (34:53.812) Hmm. Bobby (35:12.601) But will fly when you kind of go after new distribution, new customers, new advisors, new technology, and you can tell that story effectively. And we're seeing that, yeah, that works. Like they don't come in with preconceived notions. And when they come in without the preconceived notions, they're willing to hear new ideas and tell those new stories. And it's, it's very cool to see that kind of stick with some of these folks in a way that would not happen with traditional advisors. Paul Tyler (35:37.904) Bobby, this was tremendous. Hey, listen, we're at time. Thanks so much for coming. Ramsey, thank you. Tisa, Tisa. And I think we lost Bruno, unfortunately. I think the internet just did not cooperate with us. Blame it on the snow and the cold here. So we'll get him back next time. But hey, thanks so much. Hey, listen, and if you like this show, share it with your friends and be sure to tune in again next week for another... Ramsey Smith (35:46.176) Pleasure as always. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (35:49.45) Thanks, Bobby Yeah. Tisa Rabun-Marshall (35:55.71) Mm-hmm. Paul Tyler (36:04.849) episode of That Annuity Show. Thanks so much! Bobby (36:08.23) guys.  

“208 - Improving the #AnnuityUX in 2024 With David Hanzlik"   Summary   In this episode, Paul Tyler, Ramsey Smith, and Dave Hanzlik discuss the annuity industry and the changes that occurred in 2023. They talk about the rebranding of TruStage, the growth in annuity sales driven by the rate environment, and the success of fixed annuities and fixed indexed annuities. They also explore the potential for growth in niche markets, such as deferred income annuities, and the role of registered index-linked annuities (RILAs) in the industry. The conversation highlights the importance of making annuity sales easier for advisors and the potential impact of AI in the industry. The episode concludes with final thoughts and tips for annuity sales professionals.   Takeaways   The annuity industry experienced significant changes in 2023, including rebranding and growth in sales driven by the rate environment. Fixed annuities and fixed indexed annuities performed well in 2023, with advisors recognizing the value of the guarantees they provide. There is potential for growth in niche markets, such as deferred income annuities and registered index-linked annuities (RILAs). Making annuity sales easier for advisors and improving the ease of use of annuity products should be a focus for the industry. AI has the potential to play a role in improving operational processes and making the industry more efficient.   Chapters   00:00 Introduction and Welcome 00:30 Recapping the Holiday Season 01:44 Changes and Rebranding in 2023 03:24 Annuity Sales in 2023 07:27 Growth in Niche Markets 08:08 Renewed Interest in Annuities 09:37 Behavioral Finance and Market Ups and Downs 11:08 Deferred Income Annuities and Income Solutions 12:04 The Role of RILAs in the Annuity Market 13:41 White Space in the Annuity Business 16:33 Expanding the Target Audience for RILAs 20:01 Making Annuity Sales Easier for Advisors 22:29 New Year's Resolutions for the Industry 25:15 The Role of AI in the Industry 27:06 Retire Tech Innovation Event 28:29 Final Thoughts and Advice 30:32 Closing Remarks     Paul Tyler (00:01) Hi, this is Paul Tyler and welcome to another episode of That Annuity Show. Ramsey, good morning.   Ramsey Smith (00:08) Good morning to you. Great to be here as always. Good morning to you.   Paul Tyler (00:11) It is, and we've got a great guest, a returning guest, Mr. Dave Hanzlik Vice President, Annuity and Retirement Solutions at TruStage, formerly known as CUNA Mutual Group. Dave, welcome back.   Dave Hanzlik (00:25) Hey, thanks guys. It's great to be back. How was your holiday?   Paul Tyler (00:30) You know, it was too short, too short. And I'm paying for it now, paying for it now as we get ready for our upcoming sales conference here that I'm looking forward to. Ramsey, yours.   Dave Hanzlik (00:34) Yeah.   Ramsey Smith (00:44) Good holiday. We actually spent some time in New York, which is sort of our historic home, which is fantastic. During the Christmas season, it was so, so busy. Frankly, it's great to see what looks like a really great strong recovery for the city over the course of the last year or so. So it's just great to see that kind of energy in the city. So it was fantastic. And other than that, college applications. So busy.   Paul Tyler (01:09) I don't know. Judging from the sketches on your wall, I don't think you're quite there, Dave.   Dave Hanzlik (01:14) No, not yet, although these are several years old. So, yeah, yeah.   Paul Tyler (01:18) Okay. Yeah. Hey, well, listen, we actually had a chance to catch up in person at the Limerick Annual Conference, which was great. But, Liz, it's hard at the beginning of the year not to look back and then look forward. You know, looking back to 2023, it was a big year in the annuity industry and also, you know, a big year for your company. Do you want to talk about the changes and the new name, maybe?   Dave Hanzlik (01:44) Yeah, yeah. I mean, 2023, as you mentioned.   true stage. We went to market and changed our name and brand in 2023. If anyone has done this before that's listening, they know this is a lot of work and wonderful, wonderful dedication from a bunch of talented folks. But it's really about for us, you know, we had a family of brands and we recognize that we want to over time really connect.   Paul Tyler (02:05) Oh yes.   Dave Hanzlik (02:21) across all the life stages of our customers, the financial services solutions that we can bring in. A huge part of that is our annuity and retirement solutions that help people as they're getting to and living through retirement. So I'm very excited about it and happy that we're through the first phase of it. Brand changes, there's always some things that trail for some period of time, but we think it's going to be a great thing for our annuity business.   true stage business in general.   Ramsey Smith (02:56) Fantastic. So look, we're coming off to Paul's point, a great year in annuities. A lot of that's been driven by the rate profile. And so curious to hear your thoughts, you know, one on sort of what segments you saw doing well and why you think they did well in 2023. And then we can sort of shift gears 2024, what that's like, what that's probably going to look like based on what could be.   higher rates for longer or maybe things sort of pull back a little bit. So tell us a little bit about 2023 for starters.   Dave Hanzlik (03:30) Yeah. And, you know, Paul, you and I saw a lot of this when we were together at the annual meeting. First of all, as we entered into 2023, we're coming off a historic year for the annuity business in general, over 300 billion of sales in 2022. And we're probably going to end up 2023 over 350 billion of sales. So another 20 plus percent year over year growth number. You know, yeah, Ramsey.   and Paul, we heard this, the rate environment is a big, big mover of this. And I think it's, you know, a couple of things we've seen, like one is it's helped, you know, recapture the imagination of advisors recognizing, you know, where annuities can help their clients. And in particular, we've seen the fixed annuity space, the MYGA multi-year guarantee annuity space has done extremely well. And   fixed index news did really well. And those are, I think a lot of that was driven by interest rates and advisors identifying that this was the value proposition was really hard to ignore for their customers. We also see the, what I saw in 2023 was a continuation though of growth and a number of other categories as well. The registered index links annuity space and another year that is over 10% growth.   and probably going to reach 50 billion of sales in 2023. So although it was around rates, I think what we were seeing is just advisors understanding and recognizing that the value of the guarantees that annuities can provide and really bringing it more to their customer base and taking advantage of how the rates and guarantees were showing up.   vis-a-vis what we'd seen in the past decade plus of the low rate environment.   Paul Tyler (05:31) Yeah, it was hard not to have a conversation at LIMRA about rates. And, you know, it was a blessing, it was a curse. I mean, the blessing in that you could sell, you know, the products are able to, we're able to show bigger rates, bigger interest rates, higher cap rates. You know, challenges, it was the speed at which it increased. I think a lot of companies had challenges, you know, repricing those MiGAs. I mean, David, we, you know, we would...   go out thinking we were going to be number one and number two. And by the time the rates hit, we were like in fourth place. It was, it was a crazy, crazy year. And then when the business did come in, did you have enough people in place, uh, to actually process the business? And, and, uh, I think, uh, we as a collectively, as a whole in the industry, I think we did a pretty good job, but I know that, you know, there were, there were service issues along the way.   Dave Hanzlik (06:05) Right, right, right.   Yeah, I think one of the, yes, there was a blessing and curse, you know, helping a lot more people using annuities, but stressing the operational administration framework of the industry. So, but I also think that's going to be a positive as you move forward in 2024 and beyond. I think as an industry, we were recognizing that there are some ways of looking at technology, data and...   the service models that could be advanced to take on spikes in business, more business. And it's just sometimes a crisis forces involvement and advancement. So I think that's something that we're going to see as a major.   And she's continuing to get better at service and administration and processing of business.   Ramsey Smith (07:27) So one of the things you and I talked about a bit, Dave, independently was some other areas that have seen growth that have been sort of smaller markets. So we had talked about Diaz in particular. Is that, and again, it will unlikely ever to be as big a market as FIAs or RILAs, et cetera, but there is a market. Is that an area that you think will continue to see growth and attention? I can say that certainly,   I've received inbound calls on them in a way that I hadn't in the past. So I'm curious if you're seeing any of that in your business sort of profile and if you think that might be part of the future as well.   Dave Hanzlik (08:08) Yeah, I do think, you know, Ramsey, as we move into 2024, there's, you know, there's advisors and clients are going to take a renewed interest and look at annuities in general, not just my guys or fixed index annuities. They recognize like, well, there's value here and that the higher rate environment has kind of been an impetus for looking at. So for example, deferred income annuities.   I think, I think you and I talked, I think part of it was like, hey, look, because of the rate environment, there's could just, this could actually just help people identify that there's, there's a deal here. And you know, there's something that we haven't been able to tap into for a few years because how low rates have been. I think just generally though, like income has been something that in 2022 and 2023, a lot of people weren't focusing on. And, but I think as   the latter parts of 2023, we started to see more interest in it from an industry perspective. And I think you can continue to see that. And if you look at industry data, it hasn't really gone away. It's just the accumulation side has just exploded. And the need's still there. I'd also be curious, Ramsey, and it kind of was adjacent to our discussion, was part of it is...   Ramsey Smith (09:24) 100% Yeah.   Dave Hanzlik (09:37) a number of discussions, plenty of these discussions in 2023 where people are like, well, rates are so great. This is the time we should, there's a deal here. And so, you know, and part of, for me, part of it's like, well, that this is part of what annuities are supposed to help people with, which is help them like not get swayed by ups and downs in markets. So   Ramsey Smith (10:04) Mm-hmm.   Dave Hanzlik (10:05) there is a little bit of a lot watching behavioral finance play out where people like rates look so good. Now I'm going to jump into this, you know, universe. So that is something I think as we move into 2024, you know, again, looking at like, how are people looking at plans, their long-term plans, and, you know, I think a crisis can help people kind of re-examine what their long-term goals are. You know, someone feels like they could be all in equities and then, you know,   markets drop 30%. Maybe they really can't be. But I think that's something that will be a really interesting topic and item to kind of navigate in 2024 is kind of get back to – and partly I think rates are going to level out a bit here. And as they do, now are people going to kind of start looking about what is the financial plans that we're putting in place for our clients?   what are the solutions that can make sense? And income, I think, is one of them.   Ramsey Smith (11:08) Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it was an interesting discussion I had with this client, ultra high net worth individual. And so liquidity was not an issue. It was really a matter of, so the issue of a deferred income annuities, you essentially have a loss of control of the assets you allocate to it. And so liquidity wasn't an issue for this client. It was very much this idea of creating   some sort of counterpoint, some diversification into a portfolio that otherwise was risk loving, is probably not the way I'd put it, but risk comfortable. It was a very sophisticated investor. And so that's why I thought it was interesting. And to your point, like pricing levels were very attractive, both because of rates and because of appetites relative to longevity risk, you know, at that moment in time. And so I think it worked out well for all parties involved.   Dave Hanzlik (12:04) Yeah, I think, you know, when you look at income today, the industry has, you know, learned a lot of lessons during the Great Recession and, you know, now has deferred income annuity is a great tool, right, Ramsey, for those that don't need the liquidity. But I think the pricing and the creativity around solutions, whether they be in the variable annuity space, the redshift, and the annuity space.   fixed the next news was in the fixed annuity space, which are almost very close. There's fixed annuities with income options that are very close to deferred income annuity except with liquidity, right? So I think there's a lot of great options out there. And I think the industry has done a really good job of setting up the solutions that can be appealing to customers, as well as, you know, we've got...   we have the risk return, risk management piece down really well.   Paul Tyler (13:08) And Dave, I guess, where do you see the biggest white space in the business? I mean, there are ones where if you look at the reports, you say, okay, well, how do we increase penetration in the RA channel? Ramsey, your topic, how do we get more annuity sales in the workplace? The numbers are low, the opportunity is big, but it's also the barriers are really high. I mean, if you sort of think of your CEO of the industry.   Where would you say we should be putting our bets here over the next few years?   Ramsey Smith (13:39) That's a great question.   Dave Hanzlik (13:41) Yeah, I mean, I think those two topics as well as if you think about the topics of, you know, income and retirement plans and the solution that, you know, what's consistent in all of them is the complexity of trying to, you know, have a technology stack and operational stack that can fit within how those marketplaces work.   because they weren't created to accommodate the kind of guarantee solutions. And so I think that's the big challenge to, I think all three of those are really interesting opportunities. But if you're asking me like, okay, Dave, like next few years, where do you think the white space is? I mean, this is no surprise given kind of what our company focuses on. I still think registered index link annuities is a...   wonderful solution because it captures the, you know, addresses the need. Everyone, you know, people are using news because they want downside protection. And then with RILAs, they have the upside potential that they need. And now it's had a lot of discussions and there were discussions at the Limmer meeting, Paul, like, well, you know, because of where rates are, does this mean like RILAs aren't as important? And you still saw...   double-digit growth in RILAs in 2023. And when I talk to my counterparts and other companies, everyone has a RILA or is looking at it, you know, because I think it's just a really creative solution that can kind of bridge a gap of, you know, because people need to continue to grow their asset base, right, but they also, guarantees are a wonderful way of kind of helping them navigate risk and, you know.   of control their behavior risk as well as stabilize the portfolio. And even like, it goes back to Ramsey when you're talking about your higher net worth client that was like part of using like a deferred income annuity, it stabilizes part of their portfolio that allows you and them to work on taking risk in a fashion that makes more sense for their needs. And so,   Ramsey Smith (16:02) Mm-hmm.   Dave Hanzlik (16:13) A lot of, so I really think RILAs are, they'll continue to see them become a bigger and bigger slice of the NUIDI product.   Ramsey Smith (16:21) Can I just sort of extend that a little bit? Just curious, and I have a follow-up comment. So RILAs are interesting. RILAs are registered. So a different, potentially different type of advisor has to sell it, right?   And so I guess my question is like, so is there beyond just the fact that it has practical implications for the customers, does it open up a new target audience? Has it opened up a new target audience for you in terms of advisors that you are or could work with?   Dave Hanzlik (16:33) Right.   Yeah, we've seen it in two fashions, Ramsey. One is, we found that with, you know, it is registered. So, but, you know, some advisors that are registered tend to work with, you know, tend to work with fixed annuities more, fixed index. They tend to work, you know, we found that this has kind of helped them open up, you know, a better way of getting after upside potential with their customers.   Ramsey Smith (17:08) Yeah.   Dave Hanzlik (17:19) with a customer base that tends to be more conservative that they say, oh they want to manage accounts or they want to be in mutual funds, but then as soon as there's a market correction they want to run back into CDs and fixed annuities. So this has been able to help those advisors and have a more logical solution to help their customer base. The other place is, and this is I think, is folks that advisors that just really weren't using annuities, right?   Because they're very comfortable with efficient frontier optimization. And this is something we have many conversations with. We're like, how do you do this? Conversations where we had to kind of like, how does the, how do you, are you sure this makes, you know, advisors are really, maybe have your background, Ramsey, that they really understand how it   how insurance companies construct these solutions. I think it could be something that could help us with the RIA space, traditionally a space that's more focused on just not using guaranteed solutions as much. So those are the two places we've seen as our company, where we've seen some build bridge out into some new space that we weren't seeing before.   Ramsey Smith (18:29) Yeah.   So part of the reason I bring it up is I recently was asked by a family member, a friend actually, to take a look at a portfolio that somebody who was retired had and it was run by sort of a name brand advisor shop or a wirehouse type. And I looked at the asset allocation and 10% of it was allocated into what they called alternatives. But essentially they were structured notes. I looked at the structured notes and it's like...   these structured notes have the same risk profile that a RILA would have. They were really, you know, twin with what are, other than the fact they were written on a bank's paper, as opposed to written on the paper of an insurance company. So I think that sort of the aha moment for me was that, like, there's already use of very similar products already in there. Sometimes they're based on sort of central asset allocations. Some, you know, maybe they're,   made at the company level and the advisors just sort of take what the investment they're supposed to do but it's my way of saying that like there are there are places where things that are close enough to Rila's already exist and are being allocated that might be a business opportunity for you and for others in the space.   Dave Hanzlik (20:00) Right, right.   Paul Tyler (20:01) Interesting. Well, you know, we've had Joe Jordan on a couple of times. I worked with Joe back at MetLife way back when, and Ramsey, well, he always said was, how do you get somebody to do something new as you make it look like something they already do? So, and I think these products that we put out, as much as we think and talk about consumer value, it's, whoever the independent agent, the registered rep, the independent financial advisor,   kind of be, they have to, the product has to be one that they feel comfortable selling it probably as close to the process they've already done. Ramsey, I'm presuming you had probably a relatively easy discussion saying, look, you already own these bank structured notes. Look at this product over here. It's kind of similar and maybe it's a little more efficient.   Ramsey Smith (20:48) Yeah, so I was evaluating, I wasn't selling this. I was just trying to help them understand what they had. But I think it's that balance between pattern recognition, like the advisor understands it well enough, but your offering as TruStage is unique enough that they understand that it's different than the other things that they recognize enough that it's in their comfort zone. And that's the balance that you...   Paul Tyler (20:52) Yeah.   Dave Hanzlik (21:15) Yeah, I really like this question. It does remind me of one of the things that as an industry we really need to continue to focus on, whether it be in new spaces that we have under-penetrated like RIAs or just our current spaces, our current broker-dealer partnerships, how do we continue to make it as easy as possible for the advisor and client to use our solutions because it's a highly regulated...   industry. There's a lot of complexity of just trying to pull sources of funds and all that. And that continues to be, you know, and it's always a topic at our industry conference. There's multiple topics on this and it's something that we continue to focus in on in terms of our investments and the industry in general. And that's one of those things that I, you know, I continue to encourage my peers to like, where are we finding ways of   Ramsey Smith (21:46) Sure. Yeah.   Dave Hanzlik (22:10) collectively trying to make this better for those that we're working with. It's not about, we're trying to just help make this solution more widely available, more easily usable in the different fashions that clients are getting served around their financial and retirement needs.   Ramsey Smith (22:22) Yeah.   Paul Tyler (22:29) So what would you put? It's January. We're still pretty close to the first New Year's resolutions for our insurance industry to do exactly that. They make it easier for advisors to explain these things and communicate the value.   Dave Hanzlik (22:45) Can you say that again, Paul? Sorry.   Paul Tyler (22:46) Well, what would you, you know, if you had a new year's resolution list for the industry, you know, what would make the top of the list there to make it easier to sell products to clients?   Dave Hanzlik (22:59) Yeah, I think it would really be a focus in on working with the distribution partners.   you know, how the solutions are, you know, seen and evaluated. And it kind of goes back to think what you, you know, Paul, you and Ramsey were kind of talking about before, like the pattern recognition and I was really working hard on with our partners, how this is similar to where this is similar to things that they're comfortable with and how do we kind of fit them within that technology and operational and process stack and say, Hey, like it's, it's not the same as what you have. It has some.   advantages, you know, that provided, you know, allow it to be, you know, another arrow in the quiver. So I think the focus on like education of, you know, how this is similar and then how do we make it as easy as possible to kind of fit it within the process. Because I think that's oftentimes what we see in terms of what we get in some pretty specific discussions with our distribution partners. It's like...   lot of it's like they like this when they understand this solution they like it and then it's just like well there's all sorts of things that we all these roadblocks to make it harder you can make it hard for an advisor to potentially use it and it's not to say like a news or that much there's so much more hard harder to use there's always like some like mutual funds management there's always things that can kind of get in the way of using them for a variety of reasons but that's what I would focus in on   Ramsey Smith (24:25) Mm-hmm.   Agreed. Well, I think when you sort of peel back the onion on virtually any financial product, even, and I say this sometimes, that even index funds are, I think, are more complicated than people think. It really ultimately comes down to sort of comfort and familiarity. I think that ultimately is what makes the world move, make this world move. Yeah.   Paul Tyler (24:44) Okay.   All right, so I got a double click on this here, Dave. So, you know, I was there at LIMRA on this platform, this panel talked about   Ramsey Smith (25:10) Uh oh.   Paul Tyler (25:15) AI, general, genera of AI. Boy, great for pattern recognition, great for, is that, what kind of role is that gonna play in 2024 in our industry, do you think?   Dave Hanzlik (25:15) Yeah.   Well, I think every single company in the industry is looking at it and trying to figure out, because I think we've all seen the applications of it. Hey, look, it'll write a term paper in 10 seconds. It'll take a...   create a 40 slide PowerPoint for you in 10 seconds. So, us and our peers are all looking at where are some places that it can be used. But it's one of those things that there's a host of other issues that you have to navigate, because all of our companies are handling very sensitive information. And so, part of what we need to do is make sure we're...   We have it in the right spots and really understand and test through it. But I think for us again, in 2024, I think the industry, it will be more around how can we make operational processes more efficient and then, you know, and then just kind of watching like, okay, are there other places we can extend it and how can we fit that within appropriately within privacy, security, regulatory frameworks? Because again,   This is really, there's definitely sensitive stuff here that we all deal with, and rightfully so.   How about you, Paul? What do you think?   Paul Tyler (27:06) Oh, I'm bullish on it. In fact, don't get me started. No, I, listen, you know, I, everything you say I'm living, living the dream with our internal groups, but we've got some interesting sort of pilots, uh, in the works here. Ramsey knows some of them. Um, I do think we're going to have a great event Ramsey, if you want to talk about it in April, April 8th out in Las Vegas, talking about retire tech innovation in retirement, David, hope we can get you out there and your team. Um,   Ramsey Smith (27:08) You're going to get him started. Don't get him started. We won't have time.   Dave Hanzlik (27:10) Hahaha!   Paul Tyler (27:34) send you some information on it, but this would be the third event that we've held. Ramsey, I think, yeah, you've been... let's see...   Ramsey Smith (27:41) This will be two out of three. So the first one was in Hartford a couple years ago and I was traveling so unfortunately I couldn't make it. You guys sent me a nice message. You sent me a short video letting me know I was missed. So I definitely appreciated that. And then the last one was earlier, I want to say earlier this year, no it was last year. It was March of last year, sponsored by Capgemini. You guys put together a great space with them. That was fantastic. And now we're going on to the big stage. We're going to Las Vegas. So you know.   Dave Hanzlik (27:44) Mm-hmm.   Paul Tyler (27:52) Ha ha ha.   Ramsey Smith (28:10) must be doing something right. That's fantastic. Glad to be part of it.   Paul Tyler (28:12) Yeah. So it was great to have you on here. I don't know, any parting thoughts, advice for people actively selling annuities and having these conversations with clients on a daily basis?   Dave Hanzlik (28:29) Yeah, you know, maybe we kind of touched on this before, but two things. One is like, do you think, you know, we should always navigate through recency bias? Like, it's been a high-rate environment, but you know, like, I think a lot of the opportunities are around, you know, with annuities in particular, it's like, hey, like, there's some great innovation that's happened and continuing to kind of explore how it can help from an income perspective, accumulation perspective.   That's one layer. It's just continue to challenge like, you know, what solutions you're using and how that fits in with the longer term plan that you're working with your clients. And then the second one is I think this theme that we're kind of getting after like, you know, and one that we'll continue to work on and focus on is like, how are we trying to make the process of working with our industry as simple as possible and how are we like looking at tools like AI to kind of make this.   These solutions and the partners we're working with make it as efficient as possible to help serve clients. Those are the two things that we'll continue to zero in and focus on. We're coming off, again, probably it'll be a historic year. I think that lays a great foundation to continue to help people with these solutions and things we can do as an industry.   Paul Tyler (29:56) All right, this was great. Ramsey, any final thoughts, questions?   Ramsey Smith (29:59) Oh, that's, I look, I just want to, I agree with Dave, ease of use. Ease of use is a growth, is a growth area for our industry. And I say that from somebody that touches the industry in many, many ways, distribution, my risk management from my former life as a board member. I think ease of use is, uh, ease of use is, is really going to be a, uh, an important and valuable growth area for, not just for the clients, but also for. You know, the, all of us that work in the industry, I think it will be.   Paul Tyler (30:07) Hahaha!   Ramsey Smith (30:29) think it will be universally beneficial.   Paul Tyler (30:32) Annuity UX. What do you think about that, Ramsey? Is that a hashtag? Dave, you like that? 2024, hashtag Annuity UX. All right, Dave, hey, thanks so much. Look forward to having you back. And well, listen, we'd love to catch up with you later in the year. Ramsey, thanks. And thanks to all our listeners. Join us again next week for another great episode of That Annuity Show.   Ramsey Smith (30:36) Sure, yes.   Dave Hanzlik (30:39) It's great, Paul. You're the Chief Parking Officer, so...   Ramsey Smith (30:40) Yeah. Here we go. Yeah.   and   Sure.   __   Paul D. Tyler | CMO ptyler@nfg.com https://nfg.com M: 914-356-2138  

Dive into the intricacies of Fixed Index Annuities (FIAs) in a high-rate environment in our latest episode. We dissect whether FIAs retain their appeal for clients when interest rates soar, and how agents can leverage their benefits. Uncover strategies to sell FIAs effectively, ensuring your clients' goals are achieved even as the financial climate shifts.

This is day 1 of a two-day airshow whose primary mission is to offer opportunities for attendees to learn more about aviation, space, and military services. Joining me today is Tom Frick and I am sure you will enjoy the diverse interviews of exhibitors, vendors, and performers prompting aviation, space, and military service. FIAS provides […] The post SMAC309 Florida International Airshow 2023 Day 1 appeared first on Stuck Mic AvCast - An Aviation Podcast About Learning to Fly, Living to Fly, & Loving to Fly.

In this week's revisiting of one of our best episodes we will talk about the dos and don'ts of FIAs. Don't just plan for the worst-case scenario; understand when to and when NOT to.

Fia Ewald gästar Olle och Christoffer för att prata om säkerhetsskyddslagen och hur man efterlever den. Fias krönika:  https://www.altinget.se/artikel/sakerhetsskyddet-maaste-aatergaa-till-att-vara-ett-undantag https://fiaewald.se/ Vill du ställa en fråga eller föreslå ämnen som du vill att vi ska prata om i framtida avsnitt? Skriv då till @sakerhetssnack på twitter!

Why is there still such a marked gender disparity in mountain biking? That's the question that prompted Dr Fiona Spotswood, associate professor of marketing and consumption at the University of Bristol, to research gender equality within and women's perceptions of mountain biking. After numerous conversations with women across the UK, the results are fascinating - but perhaps not surprising. Women often don't feel represented or included in how MTB is portrayed, but the good news is they aren't waiting around for the bike industry to catch up. This episode touches on representation, inclusion, grass-roots communities, how events like Red Bull Formation and Rampage play a part, and what needs to change to make mountain biking a more welcoming space for women. 

MYGA rates have done nothing but climb. In this episode, we'll re-examine when to use MYGAs and when to use FIAs in today's current market.

Thomas Metzinger is Professor of Theoretical Philosophy at the Johannes Gutenberg-Universität Mainz. He is the author of The Ego Tunnel and Being No One (MIT Press), the coeditor of Open MIND, and the editor of Neural Correlates of Consciousness (both MIT Press). His research focus lies in analytical philosophy of mind and cognitive science, as well as in connections between ethics, philosophy of mind and anthropology. He is the recipient of several awards and Fellowships, including a Fellowship by the Gutenberg Research College and a Research Professorship from the German Ministry of Science, Education and Culture. He was the Director of the Neuroethics Research Unit in Mainz and Director of the MIND Group at the FIAS. He is past president of the German Cognitive Science Society and of the Association for the Scientific Study of Consciousness. He was a key member of the EU's High-level Expert Group on artificial intelligence. A life-long meditator himself, Metzinger contributes widely to the scientific and philosophical understanding of contemplative practices. He is the founder and director of the MPE-project, a network of more serious researchers investigating the experience of pure awareness in meditation. EPISODE LINKS: - Thomas' Website: https://www.grc.uni-mainz.de/prof-thomas-metzinger/ - Thomas' Books: https://www.amazon.com/Books-Thomas-Metzinger/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AThomas+Metzinger - Thomas' Publications: https://scholar.google.co.za/citations?user=x_CsYPMAAAAJ&hl=en - Thomas' Forthcoming Book "The Elephant and the Blind": https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262547109/the-elephant-and-the-blind/ CONNECT: - Website: https://tevinnaidu.com - Instagram: https://instagram.com/drtevinnaidu - Facebook: https://facebook.com/drtevinnaidu - Twitter: https://twitter.com/drtevinnaidu - LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/drtevinnaidu TIMESTAMPS: (0:00) - Introduction (0:33) - What is Consciousness? (6:30) - What is the Self? (10:12) - The Mind-Body Problem (24:56) - Christof Koch & David Chalmers - "the infamous bet" (27:34) - New Approaches to Consciousness (Karl Friston, Computational Modeling etc.) (34:11) - Philosophy of Psychiatry & Philosophy's Implications on Mental Health (44:48) - Daniel Dennett & Illusionism (49:17) - Epistemic Agent Model, Introspection & Mind Wandering (1:04:36) - More on Illusionism (1:14:13) - Panpsychism & Existence Bias (1:24:52) - Bewusstseinskultur, Negative Egalitarianism & Practical Ethics (1:41:39) - "The Elephant and the Blind" (forthcoming book) (1:50:04) - Differences & Similarities to Mark Solms' "The Hidden Spring" (1:55:58) - Thomas' Philosophers/Scientists recommendations (2:00:06) - A better Culture of Consciousness (2:05:07) - Applied Ethics (2:11:50) - Religious World-views & the Naturalist Turn (2:14:35) - Conclusion

Det är sommarfredag och återigen dags att rota i Fias soptunna och se vad man kan hitta för göttigheter där. En hel del, visar det sig! 2:10 - Väninnan 11:43 - För sent att vända om14:03 - Sällsynt vilddjurHar du ett skvaller som fler borde få höra? Maila det till kafferepetpod@gmail.comMissa inte vår månatliga systerpodd Cigarrummet. Bli prenumerant på www.underproduktion.se/cigarrummet Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

As in the previous episodes on annuities, Wade and Alex break down the components of Fixed Indexed annuities (FIAs). They detail the most salient features common across their contract structures and help you determine what features are right (or wrong) for what you are trying to accomplish within a retirement income strategy. They also break down the main differences and similarities between FIAs and income and variable annuities. Listen now to learn more! Links Join our Retirement Income Masterclass to learn about the RISA® and how to use it and market it within your practice. Sign up here: www.risaprofile.com/advisors    This episode is sponsored by Retirement Researcher https://retirementresearcher.com/. Download their free eBook, 8 Tips to Becoming A Retirement Income Investor at retirementresearcher.com/8tips

”Det som väntar mig” var en annorlunda roman än de vi brukar läsa här i podden… Inte bara då den utspelar sig i en för oss okänd kontext, Iran, utan också då det är ett annat sorts verk än de vi brukar ta oss an. Men i och med Fias efterforskningar kring författaren, Parinoush Saniee, bringades mycket klarhet i romanens syfte och struktur. Hon är/var nämligen verksam som forskare i Iran och ville förmedla den statistik hon förde på ett sätt som kunde nå ut. Med den kunskapen i bagaget gestaltas bokens huvudkaraktär Massoumehs kvinnovardag mer än vanligt i termer av att det privata är politiskt. Det som vid en första anblick framstår som en rätt alldaglig roman, är istället en genialisk form av forskningskommunikation: statistik omförpackad i ett gripande kvinnoöde. Ett grepp som fungerat då boken är översatt till fler än 20 språk.

As retirement approaches, many individuals begin to consider their income streams for the future. While traditional retirement strategies often rely on pensions, Social Security, and personal savings, there are alternative approaches to ensure a more stable income stream throughout their retirement years. In this episode, Jonathan talks with Leslie Grant, Lead RIA Consultant at DPL Financial Partners. Prior to working at DPL, Leslie spent five years working for a prominent insurance carrier and four years with a boutique investment manager. Her comprehensive understanding of product construction, the insurance industry at-large, and her belief that all clients could benefit from the opportunity to retire with security shows in her work. Committed to helping Americans navigate and manage change in retirement, Leslie talks with Jonathan about alternative retirement income strategies. They dig deep into the unique ways to fund and diversify retirement income and what advisors can do specifically around pension buyouts. Key Takeaways[01:38] - Leslie's conversation with advisors about funding retirement income.[05:39] - How retirees can maximize their retirement income.[08:31] - Other rollover opportunities and unique ways advisors manage assets.[14:26] - The impact of rising interest rates on FIAs and RILAs.[18:08] - What the rising interest rate environment means for MYGAs.

When things are down, everyone's risk profile gets much more conservative. Emotions shift as the market does, and we spend a lot of time consulting clients to help them keep balance. One of the products that we discuss more in this type of environment is the fixed index annuity, which people often love or hate. FIAs are designed as competition to banking products, and they're built to help make sure individuals are not in a position of losing value based upon market conditions. Right now, most people would love to see that hedge of protection around their principle. That's why we're focusing our attention on FIAs for this episode. Laura Stover, RFC® and Michael Wallin, CFP® will help you better understand the role these annuities play in a plan, how they help balance out a portfolio, and the impact market volatility has on this investment.   Redefining Wealth® Custom Blueprint Income Plan: https://redefiningwealth.info/schedule/ Rate, Review and Subscribe to the Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/retirement-talk-podcast-with-laura-stover/id571347188 How to Connect: redefiningwealth.info lswealthmanagement.com Schedule a Review: https://redefiningwealth.info/schedule/   Timestamps (show notes): 4:24 – Is now the time with interest rates increasing? 8:40 – How bonds and FIAs fit in the same portfolio 13:33 – How volatility factors in to the FIA   18:05 – Floating rate funds 22:25 – Is this the year to add an FIA?

Hon sätter ned foten. Hon knyter ihop säcken. Annkristin Hult, välkänd hos många i vårt avlånga land, får ta emot Gullbaggen under Fårfesten i Kil 2-5 mars 2023. Priset ges med  motiveringen "efter åratal i ullens tjänst. Hon har arbetat med ull och andra textila material i hela sitt liv men hennes stora intresse att arbeta just för ullen väcktes för 12 år sen. Sedan dess har hon sett som sin uppgift att stärka hela kedjan från fårägare, via förädling av ullen till slutkonsumenten.  Under många år har Annkristin åkt land och rike kring och predikat om ullens fantastiska egenskaper och inspirerat alla som lyssnat. Annkristin ligger också bakom flera skrifter, nätverk och föreningarna i ullbranschen bland annat skriften ”Om Ull”, Baltic Wool Conference och nu senast Arena Svensk Ull. Hennes senaste projektet är att starta ett nytt och modernt spinneri Rodens Ullbruk AB, tillsammans med några vänner. FÅRfesten vill genom att tilldela AnnKristin  årets gULLbagge lyfta fram vikten av att skapa starka nätverk och förmedla viktig kunskap om ull." (Fårfest i Kil) Månadens fårras Vi presenterar det ostfrisiska mjölkfåret, ett stort och fruktsamt får som ger mycket och fet mjölk, populärt för de som producerar mjölk, ost och faktiskt glass. Oklart exakt hur många som finns i landet men ingen direkt stor ras som har sitt ursprung från öarna utanför Nederländerna.  Nytt Ullpoddengarn Vi har låtit spinna en ny batch av garnet Hedda & Lingon, ett blandgarn mellan jämtlandsull och gotlandsull från Fias får. Vi erbjuder det rabatterat till våra Patreons för 150 kronor, och för andra 250 kronor/härva. Produktion Producent/redigering Fia Söderberg Musik Per Åberg Poddare Malin Ögland & Fia Söderberg Kontakt fia@ullformedlingen.se

In September we did a Podcast titled "Why choose FIAs when MYGAs are so high?". Since that episode MYGA rates have done nothing but climb. In this episode, we'll re-examine when to use MYGAs and when to use FIAs in today's current market.

We've experienced a lot of market volatility this year and a tremendous rise in interest rates, and people are looking for ways for their dollar to grow to combat inflation. As people explore options for diversifying their portfolio, annuities are becoming a part of that conversation more and more.  In this episode, Laura Stover, RFC® and Darlene Tucker, CFP® will discuss the pros and cons for Fixed Index Annuities (FIA) and use a recent article by David Blanchett to do that. The FIA is a means by which an individual can participate in the gains in the market when it's going up without actually taking any market risk. And when bond yields are low, the caps on FIAs are going to be relatively low as well. But now that those caps have risen to a level that can provide a nice rate of return, more people are exploring FIAs for income. If you want to know how an annuity might fit into your income plan, join us to learn more about FIAs and the reasons why they can provide downside protection, capture some upside potential, and even provide tax deferral as we approach the end of the year.  Redefining Wealth® Custom Blueprint Income Plan: https://redefiningwealth.info/schedule/ Rate, Review and Subscribe to the Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/retirement-talk-podcast-with-laura-stover/id571347188 How to Connect: redefiningwealth.info lswealthmanagement.com Schedule a Review: https://redefiningwealth.info/schedule/   Timestamps (show notes): 2:20 – Background on our discussion today 6:05 – What is a Fixed Index Annuity 9:20 – The demand for FIAs increasing 13:33 – Properly allocating funds to annuities 20:53 – How a fiduciary will help you through this decision 24:30 – Tax deferral to end the year

Hur kan vi komma åt de där platserna inom oss som påminner oss om vår KRAFT? I veckans avsnitt möter jag artisen och låtskrivaren Fia Forsström för ett samtal om musikens spirituella resa och skapandet av den inre kraftplatsen. När jag berättade för er att jag skulle träffa Fia så var ni flera som hörde av er och berättade hur Fias musik hjälp er i den inre resan - därför känns det extra vackert att få ge er det här samtalet idag. Jag tror och hoppas att avsnittet, precis som Fias musik, ska kännas som en varm och tillåtande kram fylld med självkärlek. Det är iallafall så som JAG uppfattar Fias musik. I samtalet hör du oss prata om bland annat: Hur vi kan komma åt de där platserna inom oss som påminner oss om vår kraft De rädslor som Fia har behövt möta för att leva det liv hon lever idag Hur det shamanska perspektivet har format Fias musik och kreativitet Jag får också möjlighet att dela med mig av hur hennes musik hjälpt mig på min resa mot att bli mer fri, levande och hel. Anmäl dig till kursen "Så identifierar du, uttrycker och får dina behov tillgodosedda" här: https://goingdeeper.se/behov Kontakta Fia Forsström: https://fiasmusicofficial.com/ Mer från Madeleine: https://www.mofjrd.com Madeleine på Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mofjrd Joina Facebook community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/mofjrdcommunity

My name is Jacqueline Batres Bonilla.I was born in El Salvador and moved to Minnesota at the age of 11 years old. I am a Cáncer survivor who lives with a grateful heart and with a mission to bring God's kingdom to the earth. Happily Married to Marvin Batres who are also excited to become adoptive parents. I'm a Marriage and Family Therapist working with individuals, couples and families. I am also a co- lead pastor  at Espíritu Santo church in the East Side of Minneapolis, MN. I'm a person who believes to be called to listen to others with an incarnational heart and mind to bring healing and freedom.“The Blessings comes after the step of obedience”From El Salvador to MinnesotaTranscripts:Danielle (00:05):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender and healing. And I'm so excited for you to meet my friend and colleague, recent graduate, working in the therapeutic field, also a pastor. Um, and you know, we're gonna touch on the fact that this is this stereotypical Latinx heritage month. But, you know, it is really important for us to take up some space and to give voice, uh, give opportunities to talk about what, what mental health means for our community, and really wanna be celebrating this all year round. And that's gonna be intentional as well. But, you know, here we're jumping in with this wonderful woman. So listen in and, uh, looking forward to the conversation. You know, I'm so impressed with like, your work, and I know just bits and pieces from Instagram and a lot from, like, the feeling I had when I was with you mm-hmm. . Yeah. So I'm excited for your journey and hear what you're hearing, what you're up to, and you know where you've come from. So I don't know where you wanna go or how you wanna open up talking about that, butJacqueline (01:26):Basic things. Um, Okay. Um, me number is jacking Bon. Um, and I was born in El Sal la moved to the US specifically directly to Minnesota. Um, when I was 11 years old, um, my parents, you know, my dad came to California during the Civil War, El Salvador, and, you know, he learned his English and like work in restaurants and he has shared with us that he didn't like the fast pace of the us So he went back and then got married with my mom and had my older brother and I. Um, so he has always, um, fought to be in our country. And it is interesting because he kind of lost the opportunity to become a US citizen, because after he left the amnesty in the eighties, um, so all my uncles who stayed are US citizens, and he's kind of like the only one who was not able to become an, I mean, he planned not to come back to the USHe, we, I mean, my dad always, and my mom worked hard to be business owners and just like, you know, do the best they can. Um, but I remember in the, we moved here 2000. In 2000, I just remember my dad saying like, We have too many debt. Um, we have to go to the us. And my mom was, my mom has always traveled. So, um, so my dad, when he moved, when he moved back in the eighties and he went back, he actually, uh, went to school to become a pilot. So he was a taxi, what they call, um, and when he got married with my mom, he was still like finishing his like license and all that. And, um, he's saw his plane to buy us a house. Um, so then he started like, Okay, I have to do business. And so we were, um, lucky enough to have visas since we were little because my dad, um, so we will come like for vacation and see like California and like Maryland and Washington, where we have, uh, family as well.So then my mom was a be a head, I don't know if you ever heard this term before, but my mom will travel every month to bring tamales, , you know, all the, the good stuff that you couldn't find here. And my mom will bring back things that people wanted to, you know, send their relatives, like computers, perfumes, Nikes, FIAs, and all those things that, um, anyways, so my mom was ara like every month. And my dad was at home, you know, like with the business in El Salor, but in 2000, before 2000, he's like, We have to go, we have a lot of debt. And, um, so I was 11. My brother was, he's three years older than me, so he was 14, 15. Um, and yeah, we moved to Minnesota and it's crazy because a year after, so, you know, we have to kind of learn English and all the stuff that, you know, um, a year after I was in school and learning English, I was diagnosed with cancer, um, arrived on my sarcoma.And, um, I don't know, we see, we, we see it now as there was a plan for us to come to Minnesota, You know, just having the Mayo Clinic and having like good medical assistant here. Um, and the type of cancer that I had was so rare, so rare, um, for a girl, my, for a girl my age. And, you know, it was such a blessing. Now we see like, okay, like maybe my parents never wanted to come, but I don't know if I would've been alive if I was an else because of, um, just, just the, what's the word that I'm looking for? Um, how advanced science isn't here mm-hmm. than in our country. Um, but it was, it was such a good place to be at that moment. Um, and here I am years later, um, you know, I feel like I've finished learning English at the hospital.So it's been, it's been a journey. It's been a journey because my mom, so when we moved months later, the earthquake in El Salor occur and we were granted the TPS status, so the temporary permit status. So my dad had that, my older brother and me, um, my mom kept her visa because we still had the house over there and relatives that my mom was taken care of. So while I was being treated with chemotherapy and surgeries and all that, my mom stayed a couple times and had to go back just to keep her visa. And in one of those trips, she was not able to return looking enough for me. Um, I was like finishing my treatment, um, because she was the person with me in the hospital. Like, I don't remember my dad staying with me, but my mom was there with me. Um, and then that's how kind of my family got separated. And I have two younger siblings who were born in the US so they ended up being with my mom because they were younger. And my dad, my older brother and I stayed here. Um, so,Danielle (07:33):So a forced family separation? Uh, almost like in the last, And when's the last time you saw your mom?Jacqueline (07:44):2003.It's been a long time.Danielle (07:50):Yeah. I mean, I feel the pain, even as I say, the year.Jacqueline (07:53):Yeah. It, it's been a long, long time.No, it was just, um, just cancel. And, you know, she was traveling with my younger sister. We actually had to do some like, healing stuff with her because she remembers mom crying. She was like four years old. She was born in the us Um, she's like 10 years younger than me, and she just remembered that, you know, immigration brought her to the office, interrogated her, and she's like, You're not able to return with your family, you have to go back.So my sister, yeah, just remember like crying for crying because my mom was crying but not understanding what was going on. Um, but until this day, she is one of the most, like, she feels the pain of me not being able, cuz I'm now, I'm like the only one who hasn't seen my mom mm-hmm. , because my brother got married and he was, you know, just blessed to receive his papers through the, through her, his wife. And, but like, he has, after 16 years, he was able to see my mom, but I haven't, And my sister is like the one of those that she's like, I'm broken. Every time I go, I celebrate like seeing my parents, but at the same time I'm broken because you're not able to. Um, so yeah. But it's, it's hard.Danielle (09:32):I mean, and what's hard is like, I think, and you know, you're a therapist now too. We work with people and, you know, they have traumas around family or friends or mm-hmm. loss or coworker mm-hmm. , you know, there's the list of traumas and in, in some of these traumas, like, it's like how do you address them? How do you address the injustice? But in this situation, it's systemic trauma mm-hmm. and systemic harm that separated your family and separated you from your loved ones. So in a sense, I just feel that powerlessness of like, Hey, I'm gonna shout at the wind mm-hmm. , and if I make too much noise against the system, it's the same system. I need to accept me mm-hmm. so I can have what I need to see my family. So it's, it's a bind.Jacqueline (10:22):Yeah. And now that I'm a therapist, that I see those cases and hear those stories too. Not, not that I, you know, but I can see the trauma that it causes a childYou know, and how families take, because unfortunately this is so normal in our communities that people don't see it, don't stop to hold the, the pain, the grief that comes with it. Mm-hmm.You know, people just like, you just have to keep going, like keep working and keep like living life. And I'm like, now when I see clients and I feel how this has traumatized them and increase their anxiety level depression and all those things I'm seeing, like, how have I, like not even I stopped to think about mm-hmm. all the things that I was feeling, you know, and that were caused because of thatUm, or to my siblings who were younger or to my parents who had, you know, no, say no, no power to do anything. Um, so yeah. It's, it's crazy just to think about all the things that this can cost. You know, things like this separation in the family.And it is happening as we speak.Danielle (11:53):Right. As we speak, it's still happening and it's, you know, it's ongoing for your family. It's ongoing for parts of my family. And, and like I said, there's the, uh, one of my brother-in-laws is demanded to ask forgiveness from the US government before he can return. And he didn't, he didn't do anything except for like go to work, you know? Mm-hmm. . And, uh, and I know that as people are listening, they were like, that's enough, but you don't understand. Right. The whole background to that. And so even the idea of asking forgiveness to a government mm-hmm.For feeding yourself or feeding your family mm-hmm.Jacqueline (12:35):And for my mom was for taking care of me. Cause I was, you know, Cause they give you a period of time and then she was leaving right before, right before. And even just telling the immigration officer about, I have a daughter who has been diagnosed with cancer, she's in treatment. Um, you know, what, what was she doing? You know, just working, taking care of her family mm-hmm. . Um, but yeah.Danielle (13:09):Yeah. And just the punishment for that. Mm-hmm.I, I, again, like you only share what you want too, but I just, I'm noting that part of your journey is to embark on healing.Not, not just like your body, like healed in your body, like from the cancer, whatever, but like this sense of like, there's hope for healing for this kind of trauma. And I'm just kind of curious like, what, what prompted you to get into counseling or therapy? LikeJacqueline (13:47):You know, everything started when God was bringing me the attention of listening. Well, like, he's like, you have to learn how to listen. And I even wrote my thesis about this, like listening to myself, listening to my body, listening to him, listening to what people are saying. And one of the things that I got from that was, there's like, there's healing and freedom when you're listen. Well, when somebody listens with a heart, with, you know, um, going to school. I've learned that this moment when, when we are with the clients, this is the holy place, the holy moment. Right. We kind of like the Moses on the bush on the burning bush moment of taking my shoes out because I'm taking myself out and, and kind of arriving to your where you are and listening. Right. And I just remember like, just having those moments of like, of quiet and just listening.And I don't know, I just started like listening more. I like to talk, love to talk more than listen, but God was just like giving me that desire to like, learn how to listen and listen well, don't just listen to understand, but listen to not just listen to respond, but listen to understand. And working in, in the campus ministry at Bethel, um, I started just listening to people and people were so attracted to come and me with me instead of the pastors. You know, I was not a pastor at that time, but, you know, I, I was like, okay, I feel like this is my calling to listen to people. How can I, you know, learn that and educate myself more on that. And, um, my, my dad also has been suffering from depression. So when he, he was separated with my mom for four years and a half and he decided to go back and that was like the first time that he was like, he got a, a breakdown like mental health and like, just being like moving, you know, like being here for so long and then moving back.Um, and just all the family, like he had, he knew that he, when he left, he was not able to return. Right. You know, and having a business and then starting over over there. It was just so many things. So my dad was diagnosed with depression and anxiety and went through like heart moments and just for us was just like a matter of understanding. Right. We knew, we grew up listening to his stories about how he grew up and everything that he went through, he always been open about it. Mm-hmm. , you know, the hard things, the good things. Um, but part of that was also like understanding like, I need to understand more what this means. And working with the pastors and working with college students helped me like, okay, maybe this is something that I wanna do. And that's how I like got into it.And when I'm learning about the basic skills, I'm like, the Holy Spirit already told me this stuff, you know, how to listen well, how to like in be in tune with people's emotions and like, um, so for me was just like a confirmation of, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Once I started learning and seeing the systemic, you know, as a marriage and family therapy, you see the system, you see mm-hmm. how it's not just about the client, but it's about how the parents, you know, we're parenting this child and how it has affected and it still affects us as an adult. Like mm-hmm. , everything. You know. So that's how I, and I, I feel like my husband can tell you, I felt like this program was for me first. Yeah. I always took it as I was like, in this, in therapy, like I did, took therapy cuz they told us like, go to therapy because this is going to trigger some of the things like from family of, and, and I just remember like some of the classes I was like driving home balling and crying and crying and my, my husband's like, What happened?What did they did to you? What, what? And I'm like, Just gimme a moment. Just gimme a moment. And so I feel like all those three years were just like, first for me, you know? And also receiving therapy and like, talking about my family of origin and things that have been going on. Um, it was really helpful. And then couples therapy and, you know, it's, but it's, it's been a good journey to, to do, I've done a lot of healing. Of course I'm not done because, you know, the stronger parts of me are like, okay, this part is ready, let's move to this next one. And I think, I think that's how God works. He's not, you know, the Bible says like he's gonna finish the work until he comes back. So we're this working progress. Um, it's not gonna be all at once. Um, because he's putting, he's making those parts of us stronger for those parts that are still mm-hmm. , um, bleeding that we don't know of Right. In our soul or memories or things that we don't even know that are hurting us, but they areDanielle (19:24):So I mean, that's really beautiful and I can definitely relate to going to therapy during grad school and uh, or like, and coming home and telling Louise, we're doing this all wrong. Like all of it is wrong or we're not okay. And just be like, Can you just, can you just take a deep breath because we can't, we can't accomplish all of this in one moment. Right. Yeah. But I think, I love that picture that you talked about, like, I've been doing a little research on s and like the method of healing in la Latin America, specifically in Mexico, and just this idea that there's this alignment between your heart and your mind and your soul. Mm-hmm. , like you're, and when you're in alignment, that's a place where you're listening from mm-hmm. and I You didn't say that, but that's what I heard mm-hmm. , that, that alignment is, it's already in you that desire to be aligned, that alignment and that those people when you were a campus pastor recognize that mm-hmm. and we're like gravitating towards, towards you in that space. Mm-hmm. .Jacqueline (20:35):Yeah. Yeah. It, it is just, but it, but it takes moments of listening to yourself mm-hmm. listening to it. The whole thing of listening has been an ongoing theme in the last five years for me. Like list learning how to listen to myself, my limits as a human being of resting, of why do I get mad for certain things so quickly? Why do I get irritated? Why, you know, those listening to my emotions, listening to my body, um, and then listening to God and listening to other people. Mm-hmm. , um, you know,Danielle (21:15):What, what do you tell someone that comes, and I know sometimes therapy can be stigmatized in communities of color. Like what do you say to people that come and be like, I don't need therapy, I'm gonna be fine. Or like, that's crazy. Like, you're making things worse. Like, what do you say to kind of like some of those initial defenses towards therapy?Jacqueline (21:39):I mean, I that's such a good question. I could just take it back to, I've always say it's not because people think, right? People think that you have to go to therapy because you're crazy. You're having Right. You're hearing words that are not, you're hearing people say something, you're seeing things and you know, and I I I just tell them, you know, sometimes we just need somebody who's not from our family to listen to us. And while we're talking, we're processingAnd we can hear ourselves without being judged because people are just listening carefully to us. You know, that, that's such a, everybody needs somebody to, to listen to them. Mm-hmm. , we, we desired that. We desire to be known to be understood mm-hmm. in therapy. That's kind of like the basic things right. That we learn. It's just somebody listening to, with nonjudgmentalUnderstanding your perspective. That's kind of like the goal. So I feel like this is just, if your husband's not listening to you, if your wife is not listening to you, if you don't have friends who can listen to you, if your parents aren't listening to you, like just go to therapy. You don't have to be crazy to, you know, or be diagnosed with something, butI think we all have that desire to be heard and understoodUm, that, that will be my simple thing that I'll say.Danielle (23:07):And I hear, you talked a lot about how your faith really aligns with, you know, being a therapist and how do you, how does that come into play when you're with clients?Jacqueline (23:21):It reminds me to the book of Esther, who, I don't know if you read the book of Esther, but the book of Esther doesn't mention God at all, but he's present.And as a person who believes that the Holy Spirit is in me and he works through me, sometimes even I'm not even knowing that he's working through me. Sometimes I can sense, you know, but mm-hmm. , I, I don't necessarily, like at the, at the clinic where I'm at right now, I don't necessarily work with as a Christian therapist. Mm-hmm. , um, people, some people, not my clients, but my supervisors and some coworkers know that I am a pastor too. Um, but I, I know, and one of my professors actually told me this, like, you can, you can work with God, you can work with the Holy Spirit. Nobody has to knowHe just, he will just prompt you those questions about, talk about the grandparents, and all of a sudden this big thing comes from the family origin mm-hmm. that the client's side is just click in my head and you know, that who prompt you that question or, you know mm-hmm. . So that's kind of like how I see it. Um, and always thinking about the best, the best, um, what's the word I'm looking for? Um, like the best outcome for them, right? The, the healing, the, the connecting the dots that they didn't know. Um, so just thinking about that, not necessarily like, but like, just thinking how the best outcome for the client. Does that makes sense?Danielle (25:10):Yeah. I think what I hear is you're loving people really well.Like, you're giving a piece of yourself and in a nonjudgmental way. And it's more like an invitation. What I hear in, in like, in like, kind of like my, like learning therapeutically. Like you're inviting them to their own story so they can listen to themselves and, and,Jacqueline (25:34):And they can find their own answers.Yeah. They can, They, I think that's, I think I read that. I don't even know where like, the good therapist will help you, will help you, you find your own answers. It's not that I have the answers, but you will, something will click in your mind, you will know, Oh, this is connected with how my dad raised me. You know, things like that. And find they have the answer. They just, we're just getting all the things out of them.Danielle (26:08):A lot of what I hear too, and like, you can tell me if this is true or not. Like I hear like a lot of hospitalityLot of welcome. Which feels very cultural. Right.Jacqueline (26:19):I was just gonna say that is just like the Latino way, like the Salvador way. Like it's, it's, and I remember even in one of our professors saying like, we have to be hospitable even in our, in a way of thinking and how we receive ideas and how we receive views of people.You know, but it is, it is a hospital way of like,Danielle (26:44):Again? Can you say that again? That was good. Like, we have to be, how did you say it?Jacqueline (26:48):We have to be hospitable in the way we think and the, how we receive the views of others and the perspectives, you know, because hospitable, you always think about, Oh, I'm welcoming you, um, you know, to the cafe. Like, here's this chair. Like, are you comfortable? Are you feeling good in this space? But in therapy, it's about the ideas and the views of people and what they bring, right?And receiving that as, Oh yeah, I receive that. I, I receive it as, you knowEven if it's different.Danielle (27:28):Yeah. I get that feeling even right now in this moment. Like, there's so much invitation to be curious mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm. . That's really beautiful.Jacqueline (27:38):Yeah. Just, just learning.Danielle (27:41):So if someone like, wants to get ahold of you or find you as a therapist, as a pastor, like how do they do that?Jacqueline (27:53):Well, um, they can go to a great lake Psychological services. That's where I work. Um, if they're looking for a therapist, um, and as a pastor, they can just go to our Instagram speaking to Santo Minneapolis and that's it. Or look me up, Mrs. I like, I like my two last names. That's such a Latino thing. People try to like, oh, I don't like, I like my two names and my two last names, you know? And now when I graduated, I went back to using my full name because it was a thing like, when you come to the US first, you don't know the language. And I discovered like, why did I change my name from Jacqueline to Jackie? Mm. It was because teachers will tell me, you know, when I started going to school, sixth grade, Can we call you Jackie? And I didn't know how to respond. I'm like, Okay. You know, I didn't know how, I didn't know English, so I didn't know how like no, my name is Jacqueline, not Jacqueline, not Jackie, Jacqueline. You know, So when I graduated and I started working, I'm like, I'm gonna go back to my given name, Jacqueline. You know? So now I'm trying my best to say that because a lot of people in our community already know me as Jackie, but at work is Jacqueline.Danielle (29:11):Yeah. . Yeah. I lo I love, I love that you're reclaiming your name and then so much meaning and purpose.And that's so much of what you're inviting your clients to, right? Yeah.Yeah. Thank you for being with me today.Jacqueline (29:33):Yeah, no, thank you for inviting me to your spaceDanielle (29:36):Too. Yeah. We need to do this again. Yeah. .  

Remember, we welcome comments, questions and suggested topics at thewonderpodcastQs@gmail.com   S3E34 TRANSCRIPT:----more---- Yucca: Welcome back to the Wonder Science-based Paganism. I'm one of your hosts, Yucca, Mark: And I'm the other one. Mark. Yucca: and today we are talking about Cauldrons. Mark: Yeah. Yucca: yes, and welcome to October. We're here all in. The wonderful aut month, the our kind of spooky hollows is coming and here we are. So we're gonna have some great episodes this, this month. Mark: Yeah, I'm really excited about it. We've got a lot of cool stuff to talk about for the witchy month and can't wait to get started. Yucca: Yeah. So speaking of witchy, there's probably three symbols which are most associated with witch broomstick, pointy hat and cauldron. Mark: Right. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: No one will make any mistake about what you are trying to represent. If you've got those three things with you Yucca: Yep. And oh please. Mark: Well, I was gonna say, we don't have enough to say about a pointy hat to turn it into an episode, but there's plenty to talk about with a caldron. Yucca: there is, Yes. So I think a good place to start would probably be, you know, the history. What is a coldron, what's the history and why? Why it really matters, why we're interested in this symbol. Mark: Mm-hmm. well. From my standpoint, I, I think you, you really identified the main reason why we're interested in it. I mean, for those of us that gravitate towards Paganism and it's aesthetic and it's iconography in our ritual practice, those. Those standard symbols, like the cauldron become very potent. They become very influential when, when you're, when you're brewing something over a cauldron, there is very much this sense that you're doing magic, right. Yucca: Yeah. Well, and I, and I think that the association with the witch, a witch is a powerful figure. Right. And they're, they can be represented in different ways in terms of the morality of them in stories, right? Depending on who's telling the story, whether they're, you know, the good guy or the bad guy. But they're always powerful, right? They're always, they have agency. But that agency also usually is coming from them and the home. And the cauldron has this association with the home because it's a tool of the. , whether that's an outdoor kitchen around the fire or whether that was your kitchen in the home at the Hearth. Mark: Right. Yeah. I mean, Among the very earliest implementations of of any kind of cooking equipment that we're familiar with are ceramic pots that were used for cooking. Things in hot stones would be put inside a ceramic pot. And then Cereals or meat or and water or whatever. It could be stirred in that and it would boil which would sterilize it of course, but would also break down proteins in the food to make it easier to digest. And we have evidence of that going back thousands and thousands of years. Yucca: Right. Well, because there's a lot of foods that, There's a lot of plants that you might be digging up that you can't eat. Mark: right. Yucca: Right. It's not gonna, you have to cook them. And so if we were gonna be doing that, then we needed to cook them. Mark: Right, and we've had. Thousands of generations to do the experimentation to figure those things out. I mean, people talk about, you know, indigenous knowledge and indigenous healing. Well, think about all the trial and error that went into figuring that stuff out. It's like, all right, who's gonna eat the mushroom? All right, Bob's gonna eat. Oh, Bob's gone.  Yucca: Okay. Let's remember that measure. Mark: Right, But how did they ever get to the point of feeding the mushroom to reindeer and then gathering their urine? Yucca: Yeah. Mark: I mean, it's just Yucca: Well, I, We Mark: scale of Yucca: time, Yeah. The time we've been around. On the one hand, if you compare us to, Crocodiles, we've barely been around. Right. But compared to an individual human or an individual culture's memory, the, it's so, so long. Mark: Right. Yeah. 200,000 years since we really started developing culture Yucca: Or well human, at least our gen, our genius is older and you could quite, there's a lot of argument to be made that that other humans, not just homo sapiens had. Quite a bit of culture as well, Mark: Well, sure. They had the domestication of fire, which in many cases there are a lot of strong arguments to be made that the domestication of fire was. Kind of the, the launching pad for human culture. In many ways it also coincided with a rapid evolution of our brains because we were getting a lot more food value out of our food once we started cooking it. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: This is a tangent, but Yucca: Well, but we can relate it back though, because Fire and Cauldrons is that right? So we, This was planned, This was planned tangent. We can say Mark: So, yeah, the, the hearth, the, the home fire and the cooking pot sitting over it are very, very ancient symbols of of power of transformation. You know, you put those ingredients in and they, they, they come out different. They come out edible food, they come. Tasting different Yucca: smelling good. Mark: smelling good. There's, there's just all kinds of wonderful things that happen in the, the alchemy of that, that caldron. So historically, and, you know, we know that this has been a symbol for a very long time because it was already a trope when Shakespeare was writing about it. Right. You know, with, with the three witches and the double, double toil and trouble and all that. So now we inherit it today and it's become sort of a stereotype, but at the same time, a caldron is a really useful ritual implement, and we're gonna talk about ways that it, that it is useful for us. Yucca: Right, and we should say, The image that usually comes to mind when you think of a cauldron that rounded three-legged black, you know, big Iron Pot. That's one version of a Coran, right? This is, that's, we're looking at, that's coming from recent European history, but Qurans are much older and there's, you know, they're always kind of a pot shape, but we don't always see them as that round. Belly kind of shape. Sometimes we see other shapes involved. We're talking about that because that's what we associate with the witches and a lot of the kind of witch aesthetic is coming from a European aesthetic, but remembering that cultures all over the world had versions of this. Mark: Yes. Yes. And we should talk about some some variations that exist for the kinds of formats that people might. Experience as a part of you know, selecting a cauldron for themselves. We're in no way saying you need to go out and spend a couple hundred dollars on, on, you know, a pot beed, three-legged iron cauldron. They're out there, they're really cool, but Yucca: if you're into that, we're not gonna judge you on that, but yeah, you certainly don't need to. Mark: Yeah. And if we, and if we do a ritual with you and there it is, we'll go, Hey, wow. Cool. Caldron, Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But my caldron actually is not one of those, It is a Dutch oven that probably dates from the turn of the 20th century. It's got a lot of rust on it that I've never cleaned off because it's. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And it has a wire bale that I can pick up and a lid. And I've used it in lots of caldron rituals and it's, it still, it still communicates that sense of antiquity. There's something that's lovely about having a lid for it because it's sort of mysterious. You know, you put the lid on and then some, something magical happens inside it. You take the lid off and things have changed. Yucca: I think that's really interesting because I, mine are also Dutch ovens. So mine are very used dutch ovens because I have a wood stove in the home and, and yeah, I have a little propane burner as well for cooking on, but as long as we've got, cuz we do heat with wood in the winter, as long as we've got that going. I love having things up on top of it and you can also stick it into the ashes of the fire. So we've got several different sizes and kind of different shapes there for them. And there's just something about that cast iron, right? Ours are probably are new Dutch ovens. They're probably made within the last few years, but they feel like something that could be around for a very long. Mark: Right, Yucca: They, you know, they could be passed on. My grandkids or great-grandkids could literally be using these. Yeah. Mark: that is the great thing about cast iron is that. It simply doesn't wear out. We use cast iron frying pans in my house and some of them come from thrift chops where they looked hideous. I mean, they're covered with rust and conclusions and just in the worst possible shape. But you get going on, taking all that stuff off, and then Yucca: take that top layer. Yeah. Mark: And it is a perfectly good frying pan once again, and it will be for decades, if not centuries, as long as you keep it from being eaten up by oxidation. Yucca: Yeah. That's what we use all of our, our pans in the kitchen, our, our cast iron, we've got. A couple of stainless steel for boiling, like a pot or kettle stainless steel. But that's, you know, they're just beautiful. And, and some people get very snobby about the exact correct way to treat them and wash them. And, but I think that they're just super forgiving and if you mess up, then you just it, right? You just re season it again. It's great. And enjoy the things you're eating that you're seasoning it with, you know. Mark: Right. And there are some things that you make that will take the seasoning off. Like if you cook a tomato pasta sauce, for example, the, the acids in that may very well take some of the seasoning off the pan. So you put a little oil on, stick it in the oven, heat it up for a while, and you've gotta see some pan. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So, and, and ode to to cast iron. We're big fans. Yucca: Right. Well, and so going back though to the cauldron, so we were saying that we use our, our cast iron Dutch ovens but there's a lot of Dutch ovens that are not iron. Right. And there's other things that, that would, that serve the same function that we use today. As a coulter would traditionally, So your big crock pots, right? Or your stockpot, right. We've got like this several gallon stockpot that, you know, is what I used to heat up the bath water with. And it's just, it's, it, it has that same vibe, right? And it, it's modern. It was made within the last 20 years probably, but it still does that same function and looks beautiful at the same. Mark: Mm-hmm. One of the things that is great about using a Dutch oven actually be is because they do have a lid. And what that means is that you have a little bit more control over temperature. Gradients. For example, if you've got a Dutch oven that is sitting on the fire or in the coals, the bottom of that is gonna get really hot. But the lid, you could put herbs on that to create a fragrance in your home. Or a little drop of essential oil to do the same thing. There are, if you just want to warm things, I mean, I know you can, you can warm bread and stuff like that on the, on the top of, of a dutch oven as well. So it's a very versatile tool for for a variety of uses. Yucca: and you can also put a fire right into it. Right? You could have your candle or something in that, and then. When you put your lid on afterwards, you can feel pretty secure that you're not, that you're not creating a fire hazard with that. Mark: Right, Yucca: So now it will, your lid will heat up too. So you need to be, be aware of that if you're, you are using it on the stove and, you know, not, not touch that with your bare hands, but it just, it, you could just use it in so many different ways. Mark: right. Right. And there is something about just the sight of that Dutch oven or caldron heating in a fireplace or over a stove that kind of says home and comfort and warmth and and magic, you know, the magic of the kitchen. We were talking before we were recording and I was mentioning that, you know, one of the things about about older times is that, you know, you, your, your medicines didn't come from a factory. They came from your kitchen, you know, and the caldron was a, a key. Tool for creating them. You know, you'd, you'd gather the proper herbs, you'd mash them up in a mortar and pestle, which is another classic alchemical sort of witchy, magical set of tools, and then you would brew them. Yucca: today too, Mark: Oh yeah, yeah. We, we use ours all the time. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And then, you know, brew them or toast them or, you know, whatever it is in that hot pot. So it's, It's not an accident that a, that domestic tools like the broom and the cauldron are associated with the power of the witch because that kind of ritual magic, if you will, was really the purview of the home. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: That's where it happened. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Very different than, Oh, go ahead. Yucca: I was gonna say, I still think that, I think that's still where a lot of it does, but in our very busy lives, we kind of forget about that sometimes. We're off running around, but when we come back, back home, back to center, then we go, Oh, I actually do have a lot of power from this place. Mark: Mm-hmm. . Yes. So, We've established that this is something that has been a symbol for a very long time, and it's been a, a useful tool for humans even going back into very, very ancient times. I'm sure we were heating things on hot stones long before we, you know, invented pottery or any of that kind of stuff. Yucca: Right. But as long as we've been in the neolithic. We've had something of the sort, right? Every, everybody who's doing that, who's doing the, the whole staying in one place thing, and even nomadic peoples as well could have things that they were, you know, packing up and bringing with them. Yeah. Mark: right. And we've established that cast iron is good. Yucca: yes. Yay for cast iron. Mark: Big fans of cast iron. Why don't we talk a little bit about the kinds of ritual things that you can do with a caldron Yucca: Hmm. Okay. Well I think we could start with the incorporating what you would be doing with it to begin with, just on a mundane level and adding some ritual and meaning into that. So in this case it, it might be your Dutch oven, but it also might be your stockpot on the stove. Right. What are you doing and why are you doing that? Right? So can you add something, Can you have a, a moment when you add in that salt or whatever it is that you're adding in, that you, that you take a moment and have just set an intention with that, right? Mark: Yeah, the adding of seasoning and spices I think is a great opportunity for metaphorically adding magic into whatever it is that you're cooking. Spices are. Spices are kind of magical substances when you think about it. I mean, they are the unique pesticides that various plants have evolved in order to defend themselves from insects mostly. And in some cases from fungal infections and stuff like that. Yucca: and small mammals and Mark: Sure, yeah. If they, Yucca: And us too. It's just, we're so big , right? They're, they're technically poisons, right? They're toxins that they produce because they don't wanna be eaten every, everybody wants to survive and reproduce and they can't get up and run, run away the way an animal can or bite you, but they can make themselves poisonous. Mark: Yes. And they can make themselves taste bad, but Yucca: But we ended up liking Mark: amounts, yes. In small amounts. You're, you're a regno and your terragon and your sage and your onions, and. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: All those wonderful things. Garlic, I mean, they, they give us wonderful, good feelings and very complex flavors that give us a lot of pleasure. So when casting those things into a cooking pot, we can be setting intentions, we can be stirring them in as meaning, you know,  Yucca: It would be lovely if you made your own labels and added them to the spice jars. Maybe not covering up what they are. If you need to know which is, which is your cayenne and which is your cinnamon, you wanna know the difference, right? But if you put your label on that, you know, Oh, well this one is love, right? And this one is creativity. You know, when you're putting in your love and creativity and all of those things that you see that every time. Reach for that spice jar. Mark: I love that idea. That's a great idea. And it would be a really fun project actually, to do with kids to create the labels. Yucca: Yeah. And you could do, You could put them on in ritual too. Mark: Right? Right. Yucca: And even, No even grown up kids. Right. Mark: Oh yeah. I. Yucca: kids of whatever ages. Mark: I would want to be a part of it for sure. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: So we can do caldron magic in the course of just using the caldron for the purpose, for an ordinary cooking purpose. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: We can also dispense with anything in the cauldron except fire. We can, we can burn. We can burn fire, burn wood, or you know, whatever it is that don't burn anything toxic because then you're not gonna want to use it for cooking ever again. Yucca: and you wanna be able to be around. You don't wanna breathe and smoke in general, but you wanna be really careful about what it is that you're burning. So you don't wanna be burning like synthetic fabrics or something like that, that really could be very toxic to you. If you get a little wolf of whiff of wood smoke, it's not great, but you know, it's, it's not gonna be quite as much of an issue as burning plastics. Mark: Right, right. Yeah. So, a flaming caldron is something that we, I've used many times in rituals and you can, you can feed stuff that you want to destroy or dispense with in the form of. Little pieces of wood that you've invested your intention on or written the message on what you mean. You can do that with slips of paper. You can do that with Little symbols that are flammable of, of some kind. So that's sort of the destructive approach to a flaming cauldron. But you can also do it with wishes. You can inscribe something hope hoped for, that you want to, The smoke will go up into the sky and inform whatever powers are up there and, and they'll put in an order for you. Yucca: Or thinking of it as this is fuel, right? This is, this is the fuel for the fire. That, that whatever it is burning inside of you, right? What is it that you want to feed into your fire to, for you to continue to grow and do all of these, you know, passionate, wonderful things, whatever it is that you are focused on. Mark: Right, And in the case of a ritual like that, I really encourage people to use low tech methods of actually lighting the fire. So that it, it takes a little effort, right? You know, whether that's a flint and steel or I, I don't recommend lighting a fire with a bow because it's an incredible amount of work. And it, you can have disappointing results while you're trying to light your inspiration. Fire. Yucca: Yeah. Well if, if you do, you might wanna practice that ahead of time and be, and get really good at it. Right. Just knowing that it is a skill that takes a lot of work. Mark: Yes. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: But there is, there is something to be said to something more than just flicking a lighter and . Suddenly there is flame. Yucca: Yeah. Well, and it, and you know, if you don't have access to one of those matches, right? There's something more, I, I find there's something very satisfying about striking the match as opposed to just the lighter. Although there are some really cool lighters. We were given one of those arc lighters. Mark: I have one I use it for, for my alter, my focus all the time. Yucca: Yeah, I feel so sci-fi, whenever I use Mark: Yeah. Yucca: like, yeah. It's just really nice and it's USB chargeable, so we just like plug it in and don't have to, I've got lots of lighters and matches all over the place because I don't wanna ever. Want to be lighting a fire and be shivering and being like, Where are my matches? Where are my lighters? But those are fun, but you know, there's matches. And there's also, I don't know what they're actually called, but you know, the ones we'd use in lab class for bunsen burners? The, Mark: Oh, those little pizza, electric things that, Yucca: Yeah, there's silver and you Mark: spark. Yucca: Yeah. Those are, you know, when you have a more. Just an out of the ordinary or kind of fun way of starting the fire. There's a little something extra to it. Mark: Right, right. There are these striker, they're, they're sort of like flint and steel. They're these sort of striker sticks that you scrape sparks off of onto like cotton or something, which will light on fire. And those are pretty neat for starting a fire too. I don't know what they're called exactly either, but they're you can get them in camping stores. Yucca: Okay. Mark: add to a survival Yucca: Oh, I think I've seen them and they, You can like put them on a key chain or something like that. Yeah, Yeah. Now you gotta be patient with anything like that that doesn't have a sustained flame because you're trying to catch that. Spark, Mark: Yeah. Yucca: like if you have like a little cotton swab from the bathroom, like those are really good and you maybe half of it, you dip into olive oil and the other half you leave open so that then it starts to burn the oil. And there's a lot of, that's another thing that you could do fire related is little fat lamps, little fat, an oil lamps. Those are really fun. Mark: Right. Yucca: This year the kids and I So they're, they're softa. So my stepmother lives up on our, where we do as well and is really into finding the, the clay here and fire making things and firing it. So they made little oil lamps. Yeah, so they made little oil lamps and we've been using lard in them and they worked remarkably well and doesn't smell like a fast food restaurant. I was very happy for that. Mark: That's amazing. Yeah, we've used NAEA uses Tao quite a bit in cooking and Yucca: how, Mark: Yeah, so we've, we've, I've used that sometimes as sort of an accelerant for a fire to get started, but, okay, so that's the fire inside the cauldron. That's one whole set of things you can do. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: Then there's the adding ingredients into the cauldron kind of. The, the classic example of that is stone soup, where everybody brings an ingredient and you start with water or stock. Could be vegetable stock, could be chicken, Yucca: Mm-hmm. , b flam, whatever you have Mark: Whatever you Yucca: and whatever matches your, your dietary approaches. Yeah. Mark: Right. And then people add ingredients and the whole thing becomes soup. Which. Is a lot more satisfying than it sounds. There is, there is really something wonderful about the kind of ceremonial, adding by a whole lot of different people of what they in particular have brought to add to a given dish. And then it's all put together, it's cooked, and then it's distributed out to everyone to enjoy. There's something very poetic about that, that process. Yucca: Yeah. Hmm. Mark: And then you can also do sort of magical potions, which aren't meant to be ingested, Yucca: Right. Mark: With whatever ingredients you feel are necessary. Now, bear in mind, cast iron is a little bit porous, Yucca: Yeah. So if you're gonna eat from it again, you don't wanna be putting non edible things in there, Mark: right? Right. You know, no Mercury Yucca: Yeah. Or I, I don't know why this one's coming to mind, but shampoo. Right, because shampoo, like there's really good smelling shampoos that'll bubble up really nicely. Like you could do some really kind of fun smelling and looking things with, with soap shampoos and soaps and stuff like that. But you don't want, you don't want that in your mouth. Mark: No. Yucca: And that's gonna spoil whatever you try and cook in there next. Right? If you get it out cuz you, you're not feeling well and you need that good soup, you know, And then, Oh, shampoo soup. Mark: it's, this is Lemon Sented shampoo. Oh, dear. Yucca: Yeah. But if it's one that you are using only for ritual and decorative purposes, that's very different. Mark: Right? Yucca: Right. Mark: Yeah.  Yucca: I suppose you could put line it with foil or something like that, but it's kind of taken a risk. Mark: You know, if you really want a sort of bubbly, frosty effect I would just go for the dry ice, you know, put a little little layer of water in the bottom of the cauldron set in a block of dry ice. You'll get abundant fog pouring out of it. It'll look really cool. If you want to change the color, you can break a light stick and drop it in there. So that you've got like a green fog coming out or, Yucca: but that you cannot use for food again. Mark: Oh, I. Yucca: a light stick. Mark: I didn't mean to Yucca: Oh, good. Okay. You mean snap it so it activates? Mark: it so it activates Yeah. And drop it in there. Yucca: Well, and with the dry ice, there's nothing to clean up afterwards, which is really nice. Right. If when it come, it billows out, you know, might get things, you know, little damp, but not, you know, you're not gonna have to be mopping anything or cleaning anything up. Mark: right. Be sure you've got good ventilation. Yucca: Yes. Mark: Dry ice is co2. CO2 is poisonous. That's why we breathe it out because we don't use it. Yucca: Yeah. Mark: you just wanna make sure that you've got good ventilation in the room so that you don't get overcome by CO2 and pass out. Yucca: Right, Because if we, I mean, we breathe CO2 in and breathe it back out, but the problem is it's not oxygen. It isn't the same as carbon monoxide, which is really problematic for us because our bodies confuses that with oxygen and then it basically makes us suffocate. But co2, Yeah. That sort of thing you might wanna be doing either outside or with making sure you have the windows open, but yeah. And also when you're doing, going back to the fire, one being mindful about what size is your flame going to be, Right. If you're lighting a little candle inside of your little cauldron, The kitchen, you're probably fine, but if you're pouring something in Mark, you have a, Don't you have a story about a Mark: Oh yes, Yucca: flame that came out Mark: the flame vortex. Yucca: Yeah. That you wanna be outside for, with, you know, appropriate fire or safety equipment. Yeah. Go. So what happens with your Mark: Well, what What happened was we did a ritual where we burned some intentions for the coming year, and the caldron was sitting on top of. Coals and there was still some flame there. So the bottom of the, the cauldron was very warm. And what we did was afterwards we poured in two bottles simultaneously, two bottles of cheap red wine. And it was hot enough that the wine boiled on contact with the bottom of the pan, which we assumed was going to happen for the first little bit that we poured in. And then, Yucca: you gonna make mold wine or something? Is the Okay? Mark: Yes. And, and mold wide, which included the ashes of the Yucca: beautiful. Mm-hmm. Mark: had, you know, been. Been burning there, and then we could all have a sip. Well, what ended up happening was that the entire pot boiled, it boiled off the alcohol and the alcohol lit on fire, and created this sort of fire tornado that extended up maybe three feet above the, the lid of the, or the edge of the cauldron. And it did that for about 20 seconds. So what we ended up drinking had no alcohol in it for one thing, and it wasn't particularly tasty because it had been boiled also. But it's a pretty cool effect if you, if you wanna do that again, it just don't do it indoors. Yucca: Do it outdoors to have all of your, you know, your fire extinguisher or whatever you need Yeah. To put it out. Right. And maybe not, you know. Not near a bunch of, you know, brush and all of that. Mark: Yeah. Or overhanging branches, which is the thing that people often forget because the picture in their mind is of a fire that is, you know, a nice contained fire that only leaps up about a foot above whatever the container is. But sometimes fires get a mind of their own and they, they get bigger than that and then they can start to. The, the tree branches that are over the top. So you need to be, you need to be careful with fire, Yucca: Yeah. And you know, whatever the safety is in your area, check, check with your county regulations. Is there a fire ban on at the moment and all of that because you don't wanna burn your, your neighborhood down. So yeah, Mark: Yeah. Yucca: of those, those interesting. We have this lovely, beautiful relationship with it spanning back literally millions of years, but it's also extremely destructive. Mark: It's very dangerous. The fact that we were able to domesticate this incredibly dangerous chemical process is really a testament to courage in our, in our ancestry, honestly, because when we first got it, it was probably burning trees that have been struck by lightning Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: and you know, I would think you probably wouldn't wanna go near a tree that had been struck by lightning in case it got struck again. Right. Yucca: Yeah, and it's still, you know, can still be hot. The, the kids and I are reading some Greek mythology right now and we actually just were reading about Prometheus and my oldest asked, Well, mom, why was Sue so mad about fire? What's the big deal about giving humans fire? When we had to go through all the things that fire can do, how powerful Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: it made people, they went, Oh, okay. Still doesn't seem like a fair consequence. Mark: Well, yeah, e Eternal torment never seems like a fair consequence. . So, yeah. Yucca: they were very sympathetic to poor Prometheus, so yeah. Mark: So, the last kind of ritual that I can think of is the kind of potion making where. Where you're, you're mixing something up, which you're then going to pour off into jars or into, you know, like if you're making spell jars for example, and there's particular ingredients that you want in all of them. So you mix up sort of a, a formula of what all those different elements are, and then you can pour them off into jars and maybe add material items before closing them and sealing them. Yucca: What would be an example of a type of, of ritual that you would do with one of these s. Mark: I haven't done a whole lot of spell jar rituals myself, but I know of people that have done like spell jar protection symbols for their, for their land, Yucca: So they would bury it in the four corners or. Mark: Right. Yeah. Bury those, you know, at the boundaries in order to, well, realistically speaking in order to help them feel more protected.  Yucca: Well, that's the point of the ritual, right? Mark: that's the point of the ritual. Exactly. I mean, many of the magical rituals that have been implemented over human history have been to try to get control over stuff that we don't have control. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: It just helps us feel better and that's fine. There's, there's nothing wrong with that. There's, it's absolutely a great thing to do. So, for example, if you had You know, water from a particular well and maybe some river water and some ocean water and some wine and some, I don't know. I'm trying to think of, you know, a few drops of blood. Whatever you wanted to put in there. You could stir all that up together. Add in whatever other. Miscellaneous ingredients felt like the right thing to do and then could decant out of the caldron. But you, you get to do that big stirring motion on the caldron, right? That, that wonderful double, double toil and trouble kind of thing. And so you can chant over it, you can sing over it, you can you can do that solo or you can do that with a group. Everybody can get a turn to do the stirring. I've seen that before. And then you pour off into the jars and put in items. I, I know that historically spell jars have been found that are full of nails, Yucca: Okay. Mark: that are sort of meant to protect against stuff, right? Put these sharp objects in to protect people from from what they don't want to contend with. Yucca: Well, brainstorming as, as you were talking about that everybody putting something in. Maybe one thing you could do is if you're with a group or you could do it on your own, having a, a jar that you're preparing for later when you're having a hard time, Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: the, oh, you know, here's the, all the, the friendship and joy and, and sense of connection and, you know, there's gonna be a day when I'm feeling alone and I need to, to open that up. To remember that, you know, I have this connection and this appreciation for the community or, or a day where, where you put patients into the jar. So when you're all out of patience, you can, you have a jar, patience stored on that back shelf that you can open up, right? Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Things like that. Mark: Yeah. You could pour what's in there as a libation for a, a plant or just onto the earth as a way of releasing its power. And then you have a jar that you can refill again and do another spell with, I have patients in knots. Yucca: Ah Mark: so when I really need it, I can untie one of the knots on my patient's string and let some patients out. Yucca: hm. Mark: It at least gives me something to do other than reacting angrily in the, in the immediate term, cuz the knots are pretty tight, so it takes a while to get 'em undone. Yucca: Mm-hmm. . And do you have a time when you go back through and retie everything Mark: I haven't had to do that yet. I think I've got four or five knots left on my, on my patient's string. But yeah, we did that in the, in a ritual of the Saturday morning mixer, Atheopagan mixer that we do on Zoom. So. I found it useful. I've actually used it twice but I'm sure there will come a time when it's empty and I've gotta refill it. Yucca: Yeah. Hmm. Well, these have been, these have been fun to think about different ideas to do with Colton, and of course there's, you know, there's so many more that we didn't mention.  Mark: Right. Yeah. The, the wonderful thing about having a, a ritual practice is that it's re it's everything that your imagination can come up with. Yucca: Mm-hmm. Mark: And of course, we like to swap our ideas so that we can take advantage of others imagination as well. And I hope that some of the ideas that we've talked about here today are helpful to you. But if you don't have some kind of a. Big cooking receptacle really encourage you to, to consider adding that to your magical tools. It's it, it really is a, a very useful thing both for individual work and for group rituals. Yucca: Right. And beautiful. Mark: Mm-hmm. Yucca: Right? Depending on your style, I know some people like to. Put their, their ritual tools away and wrap them in the beautiful cloths and things like that. And, and some people like to have them out on display because they like looking at them and they make them feel good when they see it. So it's both completely valid approaches. It just depends on what, what works for you. Mark: Right, Right. Yeah. So there you have. Caldron in non FIAs pagan practice. Pretty cool. Yucca: Yeah, Mark: I'm so glad it's October. Yucca: me too. Well, thank you for another great discussion and we will be back to see or talk with all of you next week Mark: Yeah, thanks everybody. Yucca: I believe. Mark: Oh yes. Talking about death. Yucca: Yes, it's October, Mark: Gotta do it. Yucca: All right. Thanks everyone. Mark: Bye bye.

We've had an increasing number of agents talking about clients wanting MYGAs right now, but why do FIAs still have a place? In this episode, we'll cover the different times when you should be selecting a MYGA vs. a FIA

Nassau Re/Imagine Retiretech Forum Session 3: Product Innovation “How Will Key Product Categories Evolve over the Next Five Years?” Product innovation has only accelerated over the last five years. FIAs and RILAs have stormed to the center of most individual carrier's product agendas. The SECURE Act has opened the doors for intense focus of companies hoping to redefine the role of annuities and 401(k). The pension risk transfer market has exploded as administrators seek efficient solutions for longstanding obligations. New software platforms open the door for synthetic solutions that don't require traditional carriers. Finally, will the government change the rules of Social Security and provision of financial advice in ways that will shake the bedrock of millions of plan assumptions? Where will this all lead us in the next five years? Connect with the Panelists: Michelle Richter, Principal, Fiduciary Insurance Services, Moderator Ewelina (Evie) Mroczek, AVP, Product & Market Research, Lincoln Financial Group Richard Fullmer, CEO, Nuovalo David Duley, Founder & CEO, PlanGap Laurence Black, Founder, The Index Standard Robin Lenna, SVP, Vitech Systems Group Bruno Caron, Associate Director, AM Best Learn more about Nassau Re/Imagine: imagine.nfg.com Connect with us: https://www.linkedin.com/showcase/nassau-reimagine Explore the Retiretech Forum Recordings: https://imagine.nfg.com/retiretech-forum-2022/ 

In this special edition of the Rainmaker Multiplier On-Demand podcast, Coffee Break with C2P, Dave Alison hosts Take Advantage of the Heat in the Market. Our panel of annuity experts discusses how to utilize FIAs in the current market and prove your value to clients.

Black Nonbelievers: https://blacknonbelievers.org/ Women of Color Beyond Belief 2022!: https://happeningnext.com/event/women-of-color-beyond-belief-2022-eid4snwbi8rcw1?fbclid=IwAR1vCa_QiR-nqp6tdsh4jVJgyaBV9MCaR-F-SaEMAMwhMJVs0RxTsyQernI https://wocbeyondbelief.com   S3E25 TRANSCRIPT:----more----   Mark: Welcome back to The Wonder: Science-Based Paganism. I am one of your hosts, Mark. And today we are really excited because we have an interview with Mandisa Thomas of the non-profit group, Black Nonbelievers, and we expect to have a really interesting, exciting conversation about the intersectionality of atheism with, black indigenous and people of color and all of the, the unique situations and challenges that go with that. So welcome Mandisa. Mandisa Thomas: Hi, thank you both for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Yucca: Thank you for coming. Mark: Yeah, we're delighted. Yucca: Do we maybe wanna just start with, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and about Black Nonbelievers and. Mandisa Thomas: Absolutely. So I am a New York city native born and raised. I have lived in the Atlanta Georgia area since I was 21, which is over half my life. And I wasn't formally raised religious. I wasn't indoctrinated into a Christian or a formally religious household. However, my upbringing consisted of many of to various religions and, and mythology and folklore. So it was early in my years that sort of had a peripheral, experience with However, it was enough for me to conclude that it just really wasn't for me. My mother made a conscious decision. Not to raise my brothers and I in the church. And my father who raised in the church really, really hated it. he just did not get anything out of it. So realized that experience is of an anomaly, especially coming from black communities. But as the years went on and my family and I relocated to Georgia where a most common question is, what church do you go to? And realizing really just coming to terms with my atheism and my humanism. I wanted to seek out community and I found that it was very lacking for people of color. In the Atlanta area in like in person community. And so while I did connect other local groups, it became very important or apparent that a group for that, that helped bring out black atheists, more black folks who were questioning and doubting their religious beliefs. It became apparent that it was necessary. So in 2011 the group called black nonbelievers was formed, but then we, it turned into an organization simply titled black nonbelievers in 2011. And later that year in November. And we have been going strong since then more sub substantive community and support for blacks and allies and other people of color. Who are living free of religion, who are questioning those beliefs if they were believing. also who need to know that there are others who can identify and as an organization, also work on diversity equity and inclusion efforts along with other organiz. And I really take from my upbringing. When I take my approach comes from upbringing growing up, seeing religion, learning about how the church in particular in Christianity was very much a catalyst for white supremacy, racism, as well as the subjugation of people of color, but understanding that the church, the black church in particular. Really played a strong role in those communities. Yucca: Mmm. Mandisa Thomas: it is very, very paradoxical in that way. And having been a student of black history in particular I know that the church and Christianity does not totally define black communities. and that it shouldn't be seen as an anomaly in any way. And also to help normalize atheism and what it means to be an atheist, that stigma also helping others who are coming to terms with that and, and letting them know that there is, there is support out there for. Mark: for you. That's such important work. We, we contend as, as atheists, we contend much with the stereotype of, the kind of snotty white guy the argumentative snotty white guy. Who's gonna tell you how it is. And that doesn't reflect well on any of us. It's so harmful and it's so uninclusive, it, it doesn't make room for, for the diversity of people that's actually out there. Are the goals of black? Non-believers sure. Mandisa Thomas: So, and, and let me just say that there will absolutely be times where. We, we can't be as tactful as we want to be when it comes to engaging religious folks, because the stigma of atheism is still so very, is still so very strong that sometimes we have to defend ourselves and sometimes we have to call out. That, that Christian nationalism, especially as we see the rise of white Christian nationalism rare is, and it is rearing its ugly head. We really do have to say those things. However, it doesn't always have to be condescending. It doesn't have to be a dismissive of what other marginalized communities go through. And that, with that being said, the mission of black non-believers and our goals. Are there, there we have multiple missions and multiple goals. So first and foremost, we provide and, and cultivate a very safe, informative, friendly community where people will feel, like, it's not just simply about many books we've read and how much we know, but how we can communicate and support each other. also we do try to encourage, open identification as a nonbeliever and openly advocating for our voice openly advocating for our rights and openly stand openly openly sharing what we stand for. And we also, and we encourage pride in those identities. There's nothing shameful about being a nonbeliever. nothing shameful about being an atheist humanist, however you choose to identify and what we also encourage people to stand on those identities on an informed basis. So, and then we also educate about the history of atheism and humanism. In black communities, which there is, is a history, even though it is, it still isn't as well known as it should be. There have always been black folks with question religion who've rejected the concepts of God on the principles of Christianity, as well as what we see in like, like in the public, in the public sphere. Mark: mm-hmm sure. Mandisa Thomas: And we also are an organization that organizes we, we organize our own events. do also, we, we also do charitable initiatives and we also partner with other organizations on, on projects that benefit all communities. So we do a lot. pretty much do a lot. We are very, very proactive and on the ground as an organization. So, and we take on many components, like education, networking, community, and support. and those are all very, very important to us. Yucca: Hmm. Mark: That sounds like a lot. And it sounds so important. I mean, especially in the deep south, it's just incredible that you're doing that work. I, I, I just wanna thank you for, for taking that on and, taking that role on that's that's. Incredible. Mandisa Thomas: Thank you. Mark: what do you see as the top priority issues facing black non-believers and, and your community? Yeah, mm-hmm Mandisa Thomas: Um, let's so of course, now we are seeing what's going on in the media. We are seeing, mass shootings, we are seeing gutting of reproductive rights here in the United States, those issues directly and disproportionately. Impact black communities, especially black women and other women of color to deny a re abortion access to deny access to birth control. But yet we are still dealing with these racist stigmas of, well, these black folks are less than or inferior too. We we also see a lot of these conservative Christians and also some conservative athe. Who, thumb their nose and who and, and, and ignorantly dismiss critical race theory. They are very uninformed about that. And they're they're, they're, they're getting up in arms in it without even really understanding what it And they falsely paint this picture that we're just teaching white people to hate themselves which isn't true. And so those are when it comes to directly issues that directly impact, black communities in particular and, and, and the black non-religious demographic, all of these things are a result of Christian, nationalism Christianity roots and racism and white supremacy. And people don't even realize it because how you perceive. lot of people of color to be, and you're going by the stereotypes. It's, can be, it can be very easy or even subconsciously play a huge impact on how you engage people of color. And also how much do you care about our, about the issues that we. and whether it is steeped in, white saviorism or this idea of elitism it also plays a huge part. So, we, we have people, we, we deal with folks who wanna get involved or they say that they care about these things, but then either still aren't ready to listen to those of us who are doing this work and who are experiencing. Or they are very reluctant to support our efforts and, and, and the work that we do, because we certainly have just never waited for these issues to resolve themselves. look back to the civil rights movement. can look back to the suffrage movement. We can even look back to the feminist movement in which there were many black women with that, even though their voices tend to be overlooked. So we can look to many of these, of these movements here and, and, and see that never just stood by and engaged in suffering, at least for the most part. However, we still do. We still do encounter a lot of Christians and others who think that God is just going to resolve this problem. And it's like, well, if God didn't resolve it during slavery. And also if you look in the Bible, says that the, which condos slavery, which was the there, there comes. There, there, there lies a very important question about what it means for liberation, which does include the elephant in the room conversation about religion and how it has impacted black communities. So there are a number of, there are a multitude. of things that we face and and, getting people to understand that church separation activism does and should also include people of color go through how it, it, how it shows us how white supremacy shows itself and an evangelicalism shows itself in the way law enforcement interacts with black communities and people of color. How, how, when we talk about the wealth gap, we talk about health disparities, all of these things intersect, it goes simply beyond people wanting to pray in schools or, these things, these things have impacted us institutionally and trying to get more people to understand how all of these things and how they also impact all of. Disproportionately. So there's a level of education and information that sometimes that many times falls on deaf ears, which can be very, very frustrating. And it's also seen as if our voices are invalid and we often sound like broken records. People ask about how we can recruit. You know how we can recruit more people of color, more young people, more women. thankfully that's changing in the community. That really is, we are seeing a lot more people of color, women of color getting involved. a lot of student activism and also there is a fundamental approach being taken what it means to be hands on and on the ground when it comes to our activism community building. Part of the, what part of the problems though, is that so many people have been indoctrinated by that That they tend to forget that community organizations still need support none of us are trying raise funds simply for our own gain or, or I wouldn't say everyone, but most of us in this because we do care about what, what is going on. We, we care about what people go through and that does warrant a a significant amount of support. I mean, this position for me is still volunteer. But we still do the things the resources that we, that we have, because they're important. So I'm sorry if that went a little too long, it's just, we know we have a lot, it's a lot to, so many things to do. Mark: I should say well, on the topic of fundraising, we will put a link to black non-believers in the podcast notes we encourage our listeners to contribute and we will also be contributing to black non-believers as well. as the society. So, definitely a very worthy cause. And as somebody who's worked in the nonprofit sector for 35 years, you, there are limits to what you can do without money. You, you need money in order to achieve your mission. So, I really encourage people to support, Mandisa Thomas: Thank you so very much.  Yucca: Well, actually we've got a lot more things to talk about, but I wanted to circle back around to something that you had mentioned at the beginning. And you said, moving to the Atlanta area, one of the first questions you get is, okay, well, what church, what church do you go to? And how. How do you answer that? And how do you encourage people who are just coming into the community who are uncomfortable with, with admitting that, that they aren't believers? Because there's a lot of shame around all of that in a. Mandisa Thomas: So that has been a challenge over the years. I remember when I was first asked it was by a my, my former hairstylist. And I was caught off guard because I was not expecting that question. And I think I might have said, well, I don't really go to church. That's not really a thing, that I do. I didn't outright say I was an atheist or nonbeliever because at that time wasn't really sure of where I stood. I do. I think I do tend to tell people about that. Yeah. I don't go to church. And, I've had like the from other folks, particularly black women who, when I say that they, they respond well, he look so familiar and church is where I spend all my time and I'm like, yikes. that may not necessarily be a good thing. I do remember one person inviting me to world changers ministries, which is which to lead evangelist there is Creflo dollar. And he's, he's very, very, I mean, he has a huge mega complex, not too far. It's right up the street from where I live and There are so many, I mean, a few years ago, he, there was a video that he made where if you don't pay your ties, you should get shot. He has recently recanted that statement saying that he was wrong for yes. Yes he has. Since recanted. This was also, if you can recall, this is also the, the, the, the one who. Needed a new private jet. And so his board, or, the, the church created a GoFundMe to try to finance that. And there was so much ridicule behind that, that I think they just ended up approving it to get him a new private jet, to, to, to travel across the world, to do his ministries. And I thought, wow, it is it is a shame these, these guys are, or these people are able to generate that much in revenue that they can actually afford to live well beyond the means of the people of their parishioners and the people who support them. it is just, it is astounding how much the prosperity gospel has taken off and actually affected. People it is just, it is, it, it, I wouldn't even say it's astounding. It's disgusting and far be it from me to denounce anyone who wants to make a better living for themselves. But how can people who are already at a disadvantage that for themselves, if they are just constantly giving to their church, or if they're giving their last penny or dollar to their churches. Which there are many of them that who, who have, who have encouraged that type of giving. And it's like, wow, how can we better? How can we help people in communities to help themselves? When there is a mentality of the more you give, the more your blessings will come. But the only one who is being blessed is the person in charge. Mark: Right, right, right. Yeah. Boy, that's just a whole huge can of worms. We could talk about the whole hour just by itself. But I, I so completely agree. I mean, Christianity, especially evangelical Christianity is so exploitative it exploits people's prejudices, it exploits people's anger and their resentment and their want. And. And their fear of those who aren't like them. It's, it's just, it's just a really sad thing to see. And especially living in a culture where you're kind of to go to a church that must be super challenging. On a, just on a day to day basis, as you meet people, Our community the non FIAs pagan community. And just to explain that in a super tiny teacup we are rationalists we're we're naturalists, meaning, we, we believe in what science tells us about the world. We don't believe in the supernatural or gods or spirits or any of that kind of stuff, but we do Revere the earth as sacred because it's what keeps us alive. And it's where we came. So we celebrate holidays in honor of the turning of the seasons and so forth, but it's a very non supernatural kind of religious  Mandisa Thomas: mm-hmm Mark: Our community contains a lot of former Christians, especially evangelicals, NX, Mormons, and also a lot of former how do you support your communities? Folks as they're going through their deconstruction. . And how would you say that their experience may be different than say white deconstructionists Mandisa Thomas: So many of we have very, a lot of members and, and a lot of our A lot of our members are former like Jehovah's witnesses. That, that cult very much has impacted a number of people, black and white. But definitely a huge of, of the black community. So we tend to be a very we, we do, we love celebrations. We love holidays. And we also try to educate. Folks on the origins of holidays, or we encourage people to educate themselves. Like for those who think Halloween is evil, it was a pagan holiday. Of course the church villainized it the, the holiday of Christmas, which was originally Saturn, Alia was not a religious holiday. And so anything that we can do to bring people together, especially around food, music, any of those things is always good. And the one thing I can say is that having been and raised explicitly specifically in the black community is good for us. To we don't have to reinvent certain wheels because a lot of things that a lot of black folks do are secular. Anyway, just don't realize it and it may be hard to separate the idea of, church or religion, but it isn't, it actually isn't as hard to do as people think it is. So I take a lot of what I learned. And, and speaking of like science and the scientific method, it is important to understand that, practitioners of the scientific method not always been genuine, there has been scientific racism at one time, Mark: Oh, you Mandisa Thomas: people use science justify or to say that blacks were inferior, that we have bigger, that we have bigger brains and therefore not smart. So there was a lot of racist. There were a lot of racist practices had nothing to do well, or which had very little to do with religion at all. With, with religion, there may have been some, a lot, some byproducts of definitely white supremacy in that, but it's important for us as a community to acknowledge and be honest about that. And also that, the scientific method is never 100%, AB it's not absolute. But what's important is the, the methodology, it it's the, the hypothesis, the testing, and then the conclusions. And if the conclusion calls for, for a different result, then what was originally intended, then you either go back to the drawing board or, and, and that, that's what I love about it. It, you can, it can show itself to be about things. Unlike religion or unlike believe in God, right? God. Yucca: self corrective. Mandisa Thomas: Right, right. God is everything, even though we can't see, even though we can't hear, even though we can't, we, we just know because we know, and it's like, that is, that is not sufficient of, of a re that is not a sufficient enough reason to, to disbelieve and believe blindly. But I, I think definitely and, and we, we have, we unpack that as an organization and as a community to just, having to unpack those, those those institutional race, institutional racism and injustice Mark: good. Mandisa Thomas: that has, that has very, very much impacted all of. So that is another layer that we find that many non people of color have never had to think about. Now. Certainly have been a lot of, there are a lot of white atheists who experience economic disparities. But I mean, it, the thing is that what's important to know is that you will never, ever simply be judged based on your skin color, at least you don't have to have societal or institutional factors impact you because of your skin color Yucca: Yeah. Mandisa Thomas: And this is important for, for, for people to understand when it comes to public perceptions, stigmas, of those things, and it also makes it much more of a challenge. because to be seen as being black and atheist is to be seen as rejecting the black how can you reject the very thing that got us through all of these evils, all of these ills in the world, which it hasn't because we're still seeing things that are taking place affect our communities. And so, really getting people to. Understand that. And also just because of the still very high numbers in black communities, the very high numbers of, of, of religious people. It does make it a challenge for folks to find each other. And when you walk into a room of atheists and humanists, Most of the times they are gonna be white. Most of the times they will be male. of the time they may be speaking on things that aren't necessarily relatable, even though the information can be good. It may not necessarily be relatable to some of the people who are looking to seek community as well as support. And so. That is that tho that is a, those are some challenges that we have to deal with as well. How do we, as a community that is on the ground and who directly relates to the black community, how do we, and also, how do we get folks to better understand that you don't necessarily have to come in and simply try to. You don't have to overcompensate for the fact that you're not black, but simply supporting and listening to, to our listening to us is gonna be extremely important. Yucca: one of the things for within our, within our community atheopagan or non Theus pagan community we really strive to welcome all comers, but. We're already coming from this predominantly white atheist communities. We often really struggle bringing or attracting and making it feel welcome to members who are from other communities than just the white atheist or the white pagan communities. I know this is something that probably is, asked over and over again. But do you have any thoughts about, how we should proceed or how to make a community more attractive in a more safe space? Mandisa Thomas: So what I find. Is happening is a number of things. So I know that there are so many people who mean well and would love to genuinely connect with other people of color. However, what, when we, when the issues that we face are directly discussed, we find that times it's not, not being discussed. and when they're brought to the table, often dismissed. Also what's happening is that the leadership in many of these organizations are so predominantly white and also their policies dictate that, certain issues may or, or, or the programming it's like, well, you may or may not be appealing to, people from diverse backgrounds and ethnic. And that's going to be important to incorporate, if you are being told or if you are, and, and also your imagery, if everything only represents a, an, it represents an overwhelmingly an overwhelmingly majority of people without any forethought as to what you are presenting, even in your, your, your marketing. That can be a challenge as well. Of course you don't want to mislead people. However, it is important to encourage and incorporate incorporate the voices. Of people of color in your leadership does that necessarily mean that and, and does that mean they should be the ones responsible for solving those diversity problems? No. And that's another problem. That's another challenge is that that is often solely on the backs of people of color to resolve an issue that has, like I said, been institutional, which means that has been taking place for a very long time. and then it's expected to be resolved in a shorter amount of time, which means that's a setup for failure. So we have to, we have to cultivate an environment yeah, an environment of change and also doing things and seeing what, what has been, what has been done before, what is, or isn't working. including people and having people in your leadership that aren't afraid to try new things that will, that that is also very important. Also how you engage the general public, Yucca: Right. Mandisa Thomas: which may not necessarily go over well with everyone at the time, but it's important to do it you never know you put yourself out there. And I know a lot of people are diverse. They are. To what they would be, what they would consider evangelizing or proselytizing, because that's what we got from religious communities. However, it is important for us to put ourselves out there, even for those, especially for those who didn't know that our organizations and groups existed, but so that they can also be a part of it. And definitely. Retaining a community that people don't just come one time and then don't come back. Those, and, and those take on a, a variety of activities. I, I think that many groups can benefit from incorporating more social events and and not just social, but also getting involved and, and know, and collaborating organizations that that uphold or that, that share our values Mark: Mm-hmm. Mandisa Thomas: many of us as atheist, humanists, pagans of us champion reproductive justice, many of us cha we, we champion racial justice, justice, even environmental justice, which is also. For many people that, you know, or that intersects with racism, that intersects that intersects with economic injustice. So, and also really caring, genuinely caring about uplifting the voices and amplifying the voices of those who have been further marginalized. And again, not just as one time efforts. It's gonna take a lot of work. It can be very, very difficult. And you also wanna make sure that you are not once again, not inundating that one loan or maybe very few people of color to, to just, to just be at the forefront of changing the community, it's gonna take everyone there. It's also, it is also going to take being mindful of how, previous members or current members. Are engaging in treating new people. Because if they say something that is off putting then the other, the other people may not come back and there's also an accountability piece there. We can't just say that it mean it, or, there's a, there's a, there's an age gap there. People need to be held responsible the things that they do. There is there's, it is good to redirect and try some correction for, not the church. We, we, we can't just try to sweep that under the rug and it's important to be honest. And, and I will just speak for myself when I say that don't like doing the guilt and shame thing, or I don't intentionally do that, I do, I, I do point out the challenges as well as solutions possible solutions, because this is something that we can all learn from because mistakes happen. When you come out of, when you come outta religious indoctrination, you realize how much you really didn't know and how much you realize that are responsible for when you say certain things and do certain things. If you can't just hide that behind religion. So, understanding that accountability is a, and, and really correcting ourselves a lifelong process. And just even admitting, okay, well, I didn't know this before. I am going to do better, listening, and also doing have been my main principles for, for this. And there are so many other groups that could benefit. Yucca: Wow. Yeah. Thank you. There there's so much in that. I'm gonna be re-listening to, to everything you just said there. One of the things that I really appreciate you pointing out is the. took a really long time for us to get to where we are here and it's not gonna be a quick, it's not a flip a switch, right. We're not gonna just fix everything just because, we have the intention to, there's so much to unpack and, and, just figure out what's going on. And that it's gonna take a long time to fix as well. And as long as we keep working at it and being consistent at working at it and not just thinking, oh, it's done. Mandisa Thomas: Right, right. Mark: I think of it kind of like way trails get built in parks or, or roads, even to cities, you just, somebody goes and then somebody else goes and then somebody else goes, and pretty soon there's a Warren trail, but we want to go somewhere else. And it's gonna take a while to wear a trail to the new place. we wanna arrive. We wanna arrive in a different location and that means we're going, and it's gonna take some Bush whacking for a while before we, it, before it becomes easier for us to be on this, on this better path. Mm-hmm Mandisa Thomas: also what's important is that, it's important to understand that these things know, just like rose, they, they need, they need repair. Do they? They need it's, they need maintenance. You don't just build it and then just let it, crumble. You have to put resources into it to keep it going. And it, it takes not just one person or one entity to do that. It takes many it takes many things to do so. And you also don't ignore the people on the ground doing it, the person who, it. And the per and everyone from the person actually doing the work to maintain it. And those are often the ones who are overlooked the workers on the ground. Mark: Right,  Mandisa Thomas: So I love that. I love that comparison, and I love that correlation because are so many things that can be taken from that. And that we can learn as a community many, many of us pride ourselves on our intelligence and our intellectual capabilities. But what about improving on our practical skills? How are we engaging? How are we, how are we directly resolving the problems and not just simply talking about them or simply reading about them. Mark: That's a great question. Yeah. Thank you. I'm, skip down to our last question, cuz I think we already covered of the stuff in the rest of the questions that I had there and that is we as a community and we, we have this enshrined in our documents and in our policy positions and all that kind of stuff. We are. deliberately antiracist anti homophobic, anti transphobic, inclusive community. And you think of ways that we can work together to advance free thought and to create a broader community? Mandisa Thomas: first it is going to take for us to, or many to realize how they have been subconsciously impacted by racism and privilege, and also white supremacy, because often it's not as overt. Well, certain cases, it is still very, very overt. We can look at the January 6th shooting in 2021 or, or the insurrection. We can look to the ma the recent mass shootings. We can look to a number of things where we blatantly see white supremacy and racism, but oftentimes it is more Mark: Mm-hmm Mandisa Thomas: Um, it, it comes, you, you see it in microaggressions and certain things that are being said people and that is where it is going to count. And that free thought and that, and that, that evidence based premise doesn't just simply stop with with religion or it doesn't, it doesn't simply stop there. There are other things that we question, but not to the point where are simply skeptical of everything but. Having an approach to, I said, anti-racism a diversity, equity and inclusion of what that looks like supporting the organizations, the grassroots organizations, doing that, doing this work directly. And how to do that without a sense of privilege or this idea that somehow you must absolutely be involved in every aspect. And just throwing your weight around learning how to take a step back and let the people support, support those who are doing this work in specific without, without centering yourself, we talk about decenting whiteness and de decolonizing, These, and, and also getting away from these Eurocentric ideals of what atheism and humanism are and learning more about perhaps more indigenous people. what practices and, and, and practices that, that are along the lines of humanism, because many of them are learning more about those. and getting out of that comfort zone, , that's what it's gonna take as well. Because there are, and, and, and when, like I said, we're a community that prides ourselves on when we leave religion behind and to build supportive communities. That's a huge part of it is, is learning more. And Perhaps sitting with some things that you weren't necessarily prepared to hear and could, can be uncomfortable, but that if you are willing to put in the work it is possible. It, it, it is possible. You can accomplish it. Mark: Mm. Great. Great. Thank you. at, at this point, do you have questions for us about our community or our approach to things or for us personally, or any of those kinds of things? Mendi? So. Mandisa Thomas: I can. I definitely wanna ask that, but, but first I would like to encourage people support and attend the women of color beyond belief. If, if they, if they can, if they can it takes place from September 30th to October 2nd in Chicago, Illinois, and online all of the speakers and producers are women of color and you hear the perspectives of women of color and how these issues us. And we can, if, if folks will love to support that, we welcome it. . And so I would like to put in a plug for that, if I could. Yucca: Oh, absolutely. We'll put the link to that in the show notes as well. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Mandisa Thomas: It's gonna be great. This is our third time doing it. A joint production of black non-believers black skeptics and the women's leadership project. other two organizations are based in Los Angeles. Mark: Oh, Mandisa Thomas: so how long has. community been around? How long have y'all been doing the podcast well? That would be I would love to know that Yucca: this is this is our third year. So we started just a couple weeks before the COVID stuff Mandisa Thomas: mm-hmm Yucca: That was one of our early podcasts looking at that and going, huh? This, we better talk about this. this is something's happening in the world, so yeah. Mandisa Thomas: Okay. Cool. Mark: The, the atheopagan community specifically has been around for about 10 years. Mandisa Thomas: Okay. Mark: We started on Facebook now we're up to about 4,000 members. And though, but that's all over the world. So still spread pretty thinly in most places. And we have a. Blog and the society has a website. I can send you some links if you're interested. Great happy to do that. So yeah, we're, we're working to build a community of people who experience their spirituality without the supernatural and who understand activism for a better world as a part of our spiritual responsibility. One of the things that I find really kind of infuriating about most flavors of Christianity is that, you go to church on Sunday and then on Monday, you're a rapacious capitalist again. Right? It's like you throw your morals out the window except on Sunday. And I really feel like, we need to, if we want a better world, we gotta work for it. We gotta. it's everybody's responsibility and we all gotta do it Yucca: And that happens a lot in, in many pagan communities where it's like, don't bring, don't bring your politics in here. It's like, well, but, but we're all saying that we, that we believe that, nature is important and that we believe in like equality and all of this, then how can we not bring. The Mandisa Thomas: Right. We wanna know that. that's a part of our civic duty is to vote and to vote for people who represent our values. That is very important. And, and, and not discussing that. Tends to breed a lot of very, very bad ideas and keeps people in certain groups who can be very, very disruptive to the community, to the community building aspect. And so what we've seen now is you, you see a faction of communities, especially in the atheist community, who's talking about the woke people or, their anti woke. now there are more, there's more dialogue and conversation and actually practices that are more inclusive of the issues that folks face people of color face that, whereas they didn't have to deal with that before. They tried to, they tried to make it seem like it was an umbrella issue and it ISN. . And so how people were being treated within our own communities when ignored for a very long time. But as there, there was, there were calls and actions for accountability, for even those who were upholding patriarchy, misogyny, and white supremacy in our communities. Now, all of a sudden, they can't say what they want anymore. And, and this idea that, oh, you are so woke now and, and we're being canceled. we can't say things that we used to say anymore. Yucca: Yeah, so we can't oppress you as easily anymore. So our, our freedom is being Mandisa Thomas: Denied, Yucca: our freedom's denied because we can't like oppress you. Yeah. Mandisa Thomas: Yeah. It's just like Christians who say, well, their rights are being trampled on because they, they they're complaining that they, they can't pray anymore. Like the, like the high school coach who prayed on the 50 yard line. It's like that, that is a gross violation. One church and state separation, but also that should be a gross, that's a gross violation of school policy and that you don't. Yucca: your students, right? You're pushing your stuff on them. How do you know that they're not uncomfortable with it? They're not gonna tell their coach that they're not uncomfortable with it. What's what's coach gonna do, right. Mandisa Thomas: right. Yucca: You still wanna play next season, right? Mandisa Thomas: Right. Yeah, it's a bully pulpit and it's, it can be a bully platform and we have to discuss these things, because now as we're seeing the erosion of reproductive justice on the national level, even though president Biden signed an executive order, which is great, but we saw the, the decision when it came down to overturn Roe V Wade and where that came from, which is absolutely horrific. And so yes, there, there is a point in time where we have to talk about where our values are in politics who our elected officials are who is representing us. That is very, very important. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. So all of those things that in spiritual circles, you get a lot of what Yucca was talking about, where it's like, oh, don't bring your politics in here. And. The truth is it's like, no, we need to be talking about voting. We need to be talking about lobbying. We need to be talking about protesting. to talk about boycots. We need to talk about supporting unions. We need to talk about all kinds of stuff here, because how does, how do our spiritual values get implemented if none of those things happen, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yucca, where are we for time? Yucca: We are coming close on about an hour now. Yeah. So we've, this has flown. Yeah, I am so inspired by all of this. Thank you for, for sharing with us and just bringing so many things to think about. And just the way that you've, you've talked about and expressed these things, are just, it encourages me to just read more and learn more and listen more. So I really value you coming on and sharing with us. Mandisa Thomas: Thank you. And if you look on our website on under we do have a recommended reading and viewing tab under and there is, there are works black atheist authors content creators to better understand. How religion impacts black communities in particular, as well as, as well as the history of, of humanism and free thought in, in black communities. not just how that benefits black communities or black history, it, it, it actually benefits American history. Yucca: that's great. Mandisa Thomas: So, that is, that is that is another important aspect. So yes, there is a, if you're, if you wanna get into some reading, we definitely have some some material for you. Mark: Great. great. Yeah. Yeah, I'm really inspired too. I'm I've, got all kinds of things spinning around in my brain now for things we need to be talking about and things we need to be doing and it's yeah, it's very exciting. Yeah. I am so glad that that your name was, was recommended to us for an interview for the podcast and that you so generously agreed to come on and give us your time. Mandisa Thomas: Problem. Mark: I will say that, one thing that I have, that's really been impressed on me by other folks has been that when dealing with marginalized communities, the people that are doing the work, you don't ask them to do it for free. So, I, so I, once again, want. Say, we're gonna make a contribution to black non-believers I really wanna encourage our our listeners to do the same. This is work that's happening in our sphere, in the sphere of, of, non-believers and it, it is so important that we be doing this work towards inclusiveness and justice. And thank you once again, for being with us Mandisa, it's been a fantastic conversation. Mandisa Thomas: Thank you very much for having me. And I'm so happy to learn of your community as well. So, if there's any way that we could work together on things, I would love to Yucca: Yeah, Mark: Great. Yeah, I will take you up on that. Mandisa Thomas: perfect. Yucca: All right. Well, thank you so much, everybody. Mark: see you next week.  

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