Podcast appearances and mentions of quincy market

I have never had the pleasure of having a guest quite like Michele Blood. While still living in Australia Michele was an extremely successful rock singer. One day she was involved in a serious accident while being driven to a gig. Her body was, as she says, quite battered and damaged. What is fascinating about Michele's story is how she discovered the value of positive affirmations that she used to heal everything. As she will tell us, it is not just saying affirmations, but rather it is truly believing what you affirm. Her music became an integral of what healed her.   Since her recovery Michele has traveled the world singing and speaking on stage with many well-known motivational and thought leaders. I leave it to her to tell the story.   During our episode Michele will sing one of her affirmation songs. I hope you are as moved by the song in specific and by Michele's attitude and mindset in general. She teaches us a lot that can have nothing but positives effects on your life.   I look forward to hearing what you have to say about my time with Michele. Don't forget to get her free gifts available only to listeners of the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Is that cool or what?       About the Guest:   Michele Blood is a successful, multi-talented lady. Michele was a successful songwriter and rock singer in Australia and after a near-fatal car accident, while in the hospital with many serious injuries, she created positive Affirmation Songs which not only healed her body but also took her to worldwide success. These Affirmation songs affect the left and right hemispheres of the brain. Lyrics, the left hemisphere, and melody and music, the right hemisphere so the new, positive messages go straight to the subconscious mind. This is why millions of people worldwide have downloaded her Affirmation Power songs. These songs cover healing, success, money, joy, confidence and they uplift the person immediately.   In addition to creating Magnet To Success™ products and seminars worldwide, her public Mystical Success Events have been held in over 26 countries. Michele has co-written and created over 80 books, music CDs, audio programs, TV shows, and videos on positive thought, mind transformation, and meditation.   Michele has appeared in many hundreds of podcasts, radio/tv shows, and magazines globally. After many years of meditation, Michele's Kundalini awakened and transformed her consciousness. Michele now teaches others how to live a Successful Life and experience Divine Oneness. Her Mystical Experience webinars and live streams have assisted people globally to transform their lives to the positive. Through her Teachings and Light Transmissions, people awaken and experience what they say is the impossible. They awaken to their true purpose and begin their path to Enlightenment. She has shared the stage and worked with Bob Proctor, Dr. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Wayne Dyer, Jack Canfield, and many other transformational Authors and Teachers. Her latest book is The Magic Of Affirmation Power and her latest album is Create Miracles: Positive Affirmation Songs To Harmonize your Mind and Life. And her new Magnet To Money App will uplift millions worldwide.   Ways to connect with Michele:   https://www.MicheleBlood.com and https://www.YouTube.com/MicheleBlood   Michele would also love to gift your viewers and listeners her audiobook, "The Magic Of Affirmation Power" Your audience can download this free gift by going to: https://www.MicheleBlood.com/UnstoppableMindset   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected, which is really the most fun part, meet today. We are getting close to winter, and I was just telling our guest Michele Blood that here in Victorville, we had a temperature this morning of 28 degrees. Ah, lovely weather, and all the weather people complain about now it's getting cold in the summer, they complained it was getting hot. You know, you can't please them. I don't know what to say. But anyway, one of these days they'll, they'll decide that whatever happens is is not a bad thing, and they'll stop complaining, I guess. But any Yeah. But anyway, Michele, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Thank you.   Michele Blood ** 02:06 Michael, I've been so looking forward to this. After reading thunder dog, I'm going to be reading the second book, which is live like a guide dog. I'm going to be reading that after that, I absolutely adore this book, which I'm showing right now, Thunder dog. It's the most inspirational you can't put down. I mean, the lot not just getting down 78 floors of the Twin Towers, 78 stairs. I mean, oh my gosh. But then everything that you've done in between working with you know Ray Kurzweil, who's done a lot of things in the music industry as well. I mean, I mean, I recognized his name straight away. I'm like, all the all the things you've done. I'm just so impressed by and by your life and how inspiring you are. And I just wanted to say that to everybody, he's just, you gotta get his thunder dog book if you haven't yet, and his new book, live like a guide dog, for sure.   Michael Hingson ** 03:02 I I don't know. I haven't totally kept up, but I haven't heard that anybody has yet come out with a music synthesizer that is better than the Kurzweil synthesizer. Now, a lot has happened, and maybe technology has advanced, but I hadn't heard about anything that still beats it.   Michele Blood ** 03:20 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the fair light was pretty amazing when that first came out, but the Kurzweil, I mean, all any rock musician knows about, yeah, when, when that was first put out, we were just like, oh my gosh, that's amazing, you know, because you could sample sounds and, you know, it was just   Michael Hingson ** 03:39 incredible, and it had a choir built into it. Yeah? Daylight though   Michele Blood ** 03:43 that was, I don't know, think back back in the day, it was like 100 grand, so that's probably why it wasn't as popular. Yeah,   03:51 a little more   Michael Hingson ** 03:52 expensive than the Kurzweil one. Yeah, yeah, our organist at our church where my wife and I went in Irvine and where we got married, our organist had a Kurzweil synthesizer and used it a lot, which was, which was kind of fun, and it was, it was very and it is very impressive all the way around, yeah, but   Michele Blood ** 04:13 just the innovative things that have been done, and you're helping ray with all of the things for the blind as well. Working with Stevie Wonder. I mean, it's just, you're very impressive. You're an inspiration. You are, you are absolutely amazing.   Michael Hingson ** 04:28 Well, thank you. But now let's talk about you a little bit. And you know, you can, you can.   04:35 I didn't show them the cover yet. You can   Michael Hingson ** 04:38 spread any rusty live like a guide dog. Live   04:42 like a guide dog. Needs to cover everybody   Michael Hingson ** 04:45 well, I hope people will get it. I'm we're excited about it. It's been out now a few months. It seems to be selling. We're excited. So hopefully people will read it, and it inspires people a little bit, because it's all about. Are trying to get people to learn to control fear and not let it overwhelm or, as I put it, blind you. But anyway, tell us a little bit about you. Why don't you start with the the early Michele, growing up, and some of those kinds of things, just kind of introduce us to you a little bit.   Michele Blood ** 05:16 Well, I'm an Aussie G'day, everyone. G'day, and, in Australia, I started in the entertainment industry at the age of five, on TV. What   Michael Hingson ** 05:27 did you do? Singing? Oh, okay,   Michele Blood ** 05:31 you know. And then eventually got my, you know, had lots and lots of rock bands I sang in, until eventually I got my own rock band that became very successful. I was the lead singer, one of the main songwriters and the manager of the band. We got a great record label. We had 1000s of people coming to our gigs, and it took years to get there, but I loved it so much, even though it's very, very tough at one stage, we toured for seven years, non stop. I mean, no Christmases, no New Year's eves, because when you're in a rock band, you get paid triple on New Year's Eves and Christmases and stuff like that. Yeah, and you can't really say no until you're really huge. You can't really say no to any gig, because you need the money road crew and sound equipment trucks and all the rest of it so but I feel that my life went on a whole new trajectory after a near fatal truck accident, actually, where I was a passenger with the truck, with all the equipment, and my body was so badly broken, I was In the hospital for months and months and months and and that was the best thing that ever happened to me. I know that sounds crazy everybody, but truly, when you have something so terrible happen to you, and it gets turned around by the Divine, whatever you choose to call God, it gets your life gets turned around and it makes all the difference in the world. So that's the first quarter.   Michael Hingson ** 07:08 Well, you know, I'm really curious. You said something that just strikes a question. I know that a lot of people try to go into entertainment, and most probably aren't overly successful. But why do you think that you were so successful? What what made the rock group and and what you did so successful? Do you have a notion? Well,   Michele Blood ** 07:30 I loved what I did. I was very, very good at it. And not everyone that's good at it's probably other singers in the world that are better than me. But the reason, I think because, I mean, I had some backing vocals on some records, and these female singers were incredible. And one of them said, I know you've got a good voice, Michelle, but I don't know why it's you and not me. And I said, I think it's just that I never gave up, and I was really disciplined. And I, you know, I wasn't on the road of sex, drugs and rock and roll. I was on the road of discipline, making sure that all my band members were disciplined. We worked really, really hard. We rehearsed a lot. We never blew out a gig, not once. So you get a good reputation. And so I started as a cover band, and we would sound just like the records at the time of the 80s. You know, people said that was a band. It sounded like a record. And so then we, we eventually started putting all our originals in and, I mean, I did crazy things, Michael, I went into Time Warner to the A and R people, because I wasn't getting any feedback. It's really hard. You can't just send them a tape to get you know for them to listen to your demos. So I went in as a tap dancing singing telegram. And so the secretary let me go straight into the office, and it was a board meeting, and because she thought, you know, their family had so I was there with flowers and a cake and my ghetto blaster, and I said, Then I did a tap dance, and I made up this song about, you know, this is, this is the band called clapping hands. You're going to sign them, you're going to want them. And this is a singing telegram saying, Listen to this. And that's how I got my first record deal.   Michael Hingson ** 09:24 Creativity counts for something. It   Michele Blood ** 09:25 sure does. You've gotta have guts. And I mean, I by the time I walked out of that office, though I was sweating, I was shaking, but you have to do something to be noticed. And and I think because I love people so much, and because I'd been singing professionally since I was five, which means I was singing for family members and everyone since I was two, apparently getting being put on the kitchen table. And I loved people being happy, and I love loved entertaining. I just loved it. So I think, you know, it's in the stars as. Well, I know that, but I think discipline, hard work eventually never giving up. Yeah, what can I say? Never giving up.   Michael Hingson ** 10:08 Did you so you were a cover band for for a while, which meant you were the the opening band for other groups,   Michele Blood ** 10:17 not as a cover band, well, with the opening act for the pretenders and in excess and a few other bands, when we were an original band and when we had a record label, right, when we had videos on TV, but before that, now we do five to 645, minute sets a night, and we would stay at one big venue, because in back in the day in Australia, the venues were huge for cover bands. You know, four to 6000 people could come in, and we got, we got very, very popular as a cover band, and then we went original. But it took a few years to do that, for sure, but   Michael Hingson ** 10:55 I remember, I remember bands back in the 50s and 60s, like the platters, who actually were the opening band, or they were the band that were the background for other singers. And then somebody discovered these guys really are better than that, and then they became their own group, right?   Michele Blood ** 11:14 Yeah, yeah. It's interesting how, how it all works out. But in Australia, it's, it's a tough way to tour when you're a female singer, because the Aussies are pretty tough. If they don't like you, you can get B canes thrown at you.   Michael Hingson ** 11:32 Yeah, well, those kinds of things do happen. Yes, they did in Boston for for sports teams. I've heard of fans really being very brutal to like the the Patriots. I think when Steve Grogan was the quarterback, they actually booed him off the field once. It was pretty amazing. I don't know. You know that's people take some of these things way too seriously. They   Michele Blood ** 12:00 certainly do. I like what Oscar Wilde said, Life is too serious to be taken seriously. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 12:09 yeah, absolutely, and, but people still do it way too much. Which is, which is, which is a problem. Yes, you know, we need people to take life more like Mark Twain and Will Rogers, by all means, but I can co so you, you had a serious car accident, and as you said, It really broke your body. Tell us what you'd like to about that and and then how you dealt with it, because that, that was quite a, I won't say miraculous. That was quite a marvel. You. You certainly took a leap along the way with that.   Michele Blood ** 12:50 Yeah, it's such a unique story. Um, after you know the truck driver we've been driving for 12 hours from Brisbane to Sydney, from gig to keep and he fell asleep at the wheel just as we reached Sydney, which happened to be right across the road from the best orthopedic specialist hospital in Sydney. So thank you, God, you know. Yeah, there's no coincidences. There's no accidents. So they got me over there really fast, and they had me straight into the operating theater straight away. So, I mean, I had tons of different operations, but what happened was, when you're in physics, that much physical agony, you pass out every few minutes. Mm, hmm, and, but I had people and fans and family putting on audio programs of things I'd never heard of before, Affirmations, Visualization, positive stuff, audio books by motivational speakers, inspirational speakers who I'd never heard of, but one of them got to me, and that was a book by a man called Napoleon Hill who wrote a book called Think and Grow Rich. Grow Rich, right? And I didn't care about hearing about all the millionaires in the 1920s in America, male men. Why would a female, young Australian rock singer care about that? But one chapter in there, he talks about how his infant son was born deaf, and he would go into his infant son's room every single night and do affirmations, auto suggestion, you hear perfectly. You are so loved, and you are so loving, etc, etc. And by the time a little boy was nearly four, he had 30% of his hearing. And you know when you hear something, I've never heard of this before, Michael, but you know when you hear something for the first time and you can feel it that it's true. You've just heard something that you know in the marrow of your bones that that what you've just heard is true. So I said, Okay, I can, I can run. Relate to that, because I know that I've used my willpower and my positive thinking, My I've never said I can't do something, I can't have that drama that I want. I've never said that. I've always said it's all possible. Everything is possible. You just go for it. Michelle, and I'd always just go for it. And I was brought up a Catholic, and I wasn't brought up. I wasn't one of those people that hated the church. I loved it. So I always had a belief in God, because I used to go to mass as a little girl every morning with the nuns, because I was in love with Jesus, and I just felt so I had that spirituality in me, and I think that is what is the backbone. You know, in the Bible, it says you do not need to be strong, because Christ is my strength. Christ is your strength. And so now I know that there is so much more to spirituality than just Jesus, but it was a great start for my faith in my life, and it gave me happiness. And so I just had faith that this would work, so I started doing affirmations, but they didn't work. Michael, do you want to know why? Sure, yeah, we've got nothing else to do today, right? May as well. Hear about it well, because neuroscience has proven now that affirmations do work and they do positive thinking actually does make a difference in the brain, in the neural pathways. It does make a difference. It ignites something in different parts of the brain. But back then, in the 80s, there was no way to prove that, you know, let alone Napoleon Hill in the 1920s but the thing that he said was most important is, you have to believe it. You have to emotionalize it. But I couldn't, Michael, I couldn't emotionalize it because I would. I started an affirmation, I am healed. I know I am. I love myself. I am my friend. Now, none of those things were true, so I thought, but I did want them to be true, so I thought, great, I've got the perfect affirmation. But when you are feeling like you're feeling and the world around you is presenting the opposite of what you're saying. Your doubting mind spits it out and does not believe it. So about two, three weeks after stopping the affirmations, because I realized that didn't work, I literally had a spiritual epiphany, and it was, you know, as a songwriter, Michelle, you can't get a song out of your head, even if it's songs you don't like or jingles from advertising agencies. So sing your affirmations. Because I got my brother to look around for affirmation songs, and he said, there isn't any such thing. And so I started singing,   Speaker 1 ** 17:58 I am healed. I know I am I love myself. I am my friend. And   Michele Blood ** 18:05 I recorded it onto a cassette player, just a cappella over and over again. And that was the beginning. As I listened to that all day, every day I would I started feeling better. I started getting back to my attitude, that I can, I can heal it just I realized. And when I was working with Bob Proctor, he said, you know why that works so well? He said, It's because the left side of the brain is where the lyrics are, the affirmation, the right side the melody. And this is even before I started recording it with music, and so you have a whole brain experience. And the song, the doubting mind doesn't have a chance to reject it. It goes straight into your subconscious mind. So that's how my positive affirmation pop music began. I didn't stop doing my other music, but I did have what they said, even the doctors, even though they're not supposed to say it, they said my healing was miraculous, and I ended up on TV shows and in the press and everything about what I'd been through for inspiration. And that's how it all began.   Michael Hingson ** 19:16 It. It really is all about believing it. It's it is so easy just to say something, but without truly accepting it, without truly making it a part of your psyche. However you do that it, it doesn't mean a thing. Don't   Michele Blood ** 19:32 mean a thing if it ain't something. Yeah, you do have to laugh. Do up, do up, do   Michele Blood ** 19:43 Yeah, music makes the world go around. It does,   Michael Hingson ** 19:48 and it's so important to take it seriously enough that you truly do believe it, and that's what's so important. And clearly. What you did? So what happened you you got healed completely, I would assume from all that had happened,   Michele Blood ** 20:10 yeah, I mean, it's still it still took quite a while, but I was determined. I put my high shoes back on, even though they said, don't wear high shoes. And I never intended for the affirmation music to go out to the public. My one of the band members that I work with and wrote songs with John Beatty, Hi John. He he's in person now in Australia with millions of kids, but anyway, we won't help me. Listens, yeah, we went into the recording studio and we, we just started recording. I was writing a lot of songs, and we started recording tons of different affirmation songs in all different styles of you know, from R and B to just rock to ballads to depending on what the song was about, whether it was about, you know, divine love, more of a ballad, more of a some of them just more rock and roll about being successful. And when the press found out that I was actually doing that, then promoters that were bringing out American very, very big, best selling authors asked me to come and do my singing affirmations in between these people. And I said, No, I don't want to do that. I'm not doing it for the public. Was just for me, my band, to have these positive thoughts. And they said, No, we love it. We love it. We want you to do it. And so my very first gig, I'm in Adelaide, Australia, and there's three and a half 1000 people on a Wednesday that came to this gig that paid over $300 each for a ticket, which I thought was absolutely insane. I didn't know what was going on. And I sang, and got all the people up on stage singing the affirmation songs with me made it into like a mini rock concert. And then Deepak Chopra, this, who I'd never heard of, never met before. Wayne Dyer, who I'd never heard of, never met before. Tony Alessandra, Stuart, wild, they were the speakers, and they couldn't believe it when we went out to dinner that night that I've never heard of any of them. And I said, I'm in rock and roll. I'm not in the motivational world. You know, I've, I've never heard of you, because I've not in that world. And so they were interested in how it all began, and they all said, You've got to tour this around the world. You've got to you've got to release these that we love. What you're doing. The audience is so different. Bob Proctor, though he was the one, when I ended up working with him, the promoters said, you know, we've got this female Australian singer, and you're going to be touring with her? And he said, No, I don't want a female singer. I'm Bob Proctor. I don't need that anyway. The first gig I did with him in Sydney, he came out after, and he said, I didn't want to work with a singer. And I said, good to meet you too, mate. I Yes, how are you? And he said, but no, all kidding aside. He said, My wife and I, Linda, we loved it so much, and I want you to work with me all over the world, doing events. So eventually I end up working with Bob for seven years straight. We wrote books together. We wrote music together. We put on huge events. I took over his business, looked after it, and from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, where I lived, and then, and it was just very, very interesting. I've worked in over 26 countries, huge, huge audiences. The biggest one I had was 50,000 people. So to say it was successful is an understatement, but I didn't plan it. I didn't visualize it, but I had always planned on being very well known singer, but it but not to be a positive affirmation or singer. I'd never thought of that, but eventually I went off the grid and started really getting into deep meditation practice and getting off the that whole circuit, because I wanted to find God within me. So that was what happened. And it was fascinating, because it's like working with all these, you know, rock musicians, male rock musicians, and then working with all these male best selling authors. I'm like, I'm always surrounded by the boys.   Michael Hingson ** 24:46 Hey, whatever works, it's, it's interesting though, that that you, you did so much of this, I gather that the audience is reacted very positively, though. Um. Have you heard from anyone that it really changed their life to have encountered you and heard you when you performed? Oh,   Michele Blood ** 25:10 yeah, we've had millions. I mean, we've got a lot of our video video testimonials and testimonials from not just best selling authors that I've worked with, but also from people from all over the world. I work with people in over 32 countries now, and some of them don't even speak English, but they still feel the vibration. And a lot of different people have started singing my songs in different languages, which I allow anyone to do. They don't have to pay me a royalty. They can just do it whatever brings positivity to the world and change within someone, so that they can get out of that rabbit hole. Because you're, you know, your whole podcast about unstoppable mindset. Well, this is such a a great new beginning is to just have to listen to a song. Yeah? And, you know, there's so I've got hundreds of songs to choose from, so it's a good it's a good way to start, because music, you know, like I always say to people, if you have the blues, even though I like blues and I think it's brilliant, but if you have the blues, probably best not to listen to the blues. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 26:21 definitely, definitely true. Well, of course, one has to ask if, if you have one, not necessarily long, but that you want to sing for us all.   Michele Blood ** 26:38 Yeah, I can. I didn't have anything set up. But if you'd like to chat for a minute, I'll just get something set up for you. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 26:45 okay, we can, we can do that. I do. I do agree with you that if you've got the blues, you don't want to listen to the blues. I I personally like happy stuff. I like musicals, especially when they're they're happy musicals. I've always enjoyed that. I do listen and read science fiction and sometimes read some some pretty horrific things. But I've noticed later in my life I'm doing less of that because I, although I like mysteries, I don't like nowadays really graphical or very graphic murder mysteries and things like that, and so people call the kinds of things that I probably typically like cozy mysteries. I wouldn't say that Rex Stout books about neural wolf the private detective are necessarily cozy, but by the same token, they're not the most graphic things, and I've always enjoyed them because they're puzzles. And I love mysteries that are really puzzles that I can become engaged in and try to solve, and musicals I like just because they're fun and and they're they're very happy for the most part. And so again, they're, they're very relevant to to want to listen to. So I, I tend to do that. So it's a lot of fun to keep in the the spirit of reasonably happy and stay away from the blues. Okay,   Michele Blood ** 28:17 I've got something set up now, alright, saying low battery, but oh, sorry. What happened there? There it is. There it is. This song is called synergy. I wrote it with Bob Proctor. Can you hear the music?   Michael Hingson ** 28:35 It's a little low, but yes, go ahead. Better. Yep,   Speaker 1 ** 28:40 there's a way to get it moving, to make it happen, to get high. Can barely flooded in the clouds, join thoughts and let them fly. When your mind joins in with others and all your thoughts to one a US. Energy begins to sizzle and it's energy positive energy synergy. It's energy, hot energy, positive energy turn into synergy. Together, creative power will start to flow. Things begin to happen. You're a church with Synergy. Red Hot energy, positive energy grows into synergy. It's energy, hot energy, positive energy grows into synergy.   Michele Blood ** 29:55 You shine and become magnetic, you'll draw the good. People out the world will be a better place, and everyone will start to shout, face to face, building   Speaker 2 ** 30:12 energy. Taste. The taste is this energy, thoughts, launching into one, a new boss have become this is synergy.   Speaker 1 ** 30:23 It's synergy, red hot energy, positive energy, delta, synergy, it's synergy.   Michael Hingson ** 30:34 There you go. Now   30:36 that's Bob Proctor. Wrote the lyrics for that.   Michael Hingson ** 30:41 But, um, who was the male voice near the end? Oh, the   Michele Blood ** 30:44 male voice was a American guy in who was singing covers in Kuala Lumpur when I lived there, Ah, okay, and I just hired him to come and and do that in the studio in Kuala Lumpur, yeah. But the other affirmation songs are more simple, but they're still got, you know, like a good dance beat, some of them are ballads greeting the day with love in your heart. It just depends on where you want to take your mind that day. Do you want to open your heart? Do you want to be like listen to the persistent song. Do you want to feel more successful? You listen to the success song, which is like 50s, rock and roll. So they're all different. They're all different product, production. So it was a lot of fun changing the different styles for each song depending on the lyrics.   Michael Hingson ** 31:34 Well, if people want to get those affirmation songs and so on, are they available for people to get? Yeah,   Michele Blood ** 31:41 all my albums are sold all over the world, and iTunes, of course, Amazon. My own website is magnet to success. Com. My YouTube channel is Michelle blood.com forward slash YouTube. But I've got lovely giveaways for your for your audience, if you'd like me to share that. Well, we will   Michael Hingson ** 32:03 do that a little bit, okay, but I really appreciate you seeing synergy. I will be, I will be saying that to myself the rest of the day, which is fine, but you know, you mentioned the blues and so on. So here's a question, if somebody is really down and really frustrated, how can they change their life to the positive?   Michele Blood ** 32:31 Well, first of all, even if they are really down, you've got to know, no matter what is going on in your life, that everything is possible for you, and that you can get out of that rabbit hole, and that you are you might feel alone, but you're never alone. Whether you believe in God or you don't believe in God, there is a God and you are looked after. You can pray without begging just giving. One of the most wonderful things you can do is just to start to write down what you're thankful for immediately. If you can say thank you divine, or just thank you for my beautiful life, and if then you can begin to write down what a beautiful life would look like for you, just start writing it down, even though it's not true yet. Like, let's start thinking about what can be done. What do you what sort of friends do you want? What sort of lifestyle do you want? You know, start thinking of others as well. Whenever we can do something, if we can do something every single day that makes somebody else happy, whether it's feeding the homeless or sending funny kitten videos to your friends. You if you can do something every day that brings happiness to somebody else or takes them out of suffering, well, then it'll take you out of yourself. Because if, if it's something emotional that you're going through, that means that you're going to sometimes we do need to go through the emotion, particularly if we're mourning the loss of something or someone that's important and healthy. But it is also important to stop thinking about ourselves so much and look at what can be done for the world. I love I love Saint Vincent de Paul. I love the Salvation Army so much, so you can tithe to them anonymously. If you want to do something you don't know what to do, even if it's just a buck, five bucks, it's really good to tithe to charities that are doing good in the world. And I'm sure there's a charity that you could recommend to us, Michael, that will help with the blind. If you got one, you can recommend?   Michael Hingson ** 34:43 Well, I think there, there really are a number of of places to donate. One of my favorites is the National Federation of the Blind, nfb.org, because it's, it's a consumer organization that fights for the rights of. Of blind people around the United States and actually around the world. And it's the NFB is the largest consumer organization of blind people in this country and, in fact, in the world. But it has made such a difference in the lives of blind people. For example, through the National Federation of blind we completely changed the life insurance industry that refused to provide life insurance for any blind person up until the mid 1980s and when it was finally discovered that they were denying us, not because they had any evidence and actual mathematical models that proved that we were a risk, which is what they're supposed to do. They were doing it strictly out of prejudice. And so now every state in the union, because of the Federation, has actually passed legislation that says you can't discriminate unless you've got real evidence. Well, it's been 40 years, and nobody's come up with evidence that we're a higher risk simply because we're blind or other persons with disabilities, their disabilities directly make them a higher risk. So, you know, that's that's definitely one of my favorite organizations to support. And   Michele Blood ** 36:13 nfb.org everybody. Nfb.org I've written it down for me to start tithing there as well. And,   Michael Hingson ** 36:20 you know, and there, there are so many others. Another organization that I tend to like, it's a very small organization, is advocates for service animal partners asap.org, and and it fights for the rights of people with a variety of disabilities who use service animals, service dogs, to be able to take their dogs with them, where wherever they go, because we're denied. So awesome. So I like asap.org as well.   Michele Blood ** 36:51 I love what you did. I think it was you and Ray and his wife. You were going to a particular restaurant and a a suity maitre d snotty, snooty, wouldn't let you in with your blind dog, with your with your guide dog, right? And and she was really upset the wife. And so you end up gathering quite a few of your friends that are blind, that have guide dogs, and you went in, and he had to oblige and let you all in. And everyone was very nice to you. So that was really good, because that it, it's, it's illegal for them to say you can't come in with your guide dog. It is   Michael Hingson ** 37:28 illegal, and it has been illegal for a long time. One of my favorite stories, which really wasn't a bad story at all, there used to be a restaurant in Boston in Quincy Market called Durgan Park. And Durgan Park was was basically family style, although around the outside of the room they had tables for four but you couldn't sit at one of those tables unless you had four people. Well, we came in one night and there were only three of us and my dog, Holland, and the the host has said, You know what, I'm going to make an exception and let you sit at this table for four so Holland was under the table, and there were three of us, and the waitress came up, and the waitresses at Durgan Park are known as snots. I mean, they're, they're, they're, they're supposed to be really rough and all that. It's just part of the schtick. But she came up and she said, What are you people doing sitting here? And he said, well, the host has put us here. No, she didn't. You're just sitting here. No, she did. It's because of the dog under the table. No, there's no dog under the table. You're not going to make me fall for that. And she walks away, and then she comes back and she said, you're not supposed to be sitting here and all that. I said, Look, there's a dog under the table. Take a look. And it took a while, but I finally got her to look, and there's Holland staring at her with these big brown eyes when she lifts up the the tablecloth, and the next thing I know, she comes back with a big plate. Jurgen Park has very good sized portions of frying rib and says, Can I give this to the dog, oh, and, and normally, I would never do that, but in the for to promote goodwill, I said, Okay, which Hall of love? And, you know, I knew the food there was good, but, you know, it was, it was just one of those great stories. But, yeah, all too often that isn't the way it goes. We see so many challenges with Uber, for example, so many drivers refuse to take blind people or other people with disabilities who have service dogs. It's against the rules, and they say, but it's our car. No, you signed a contract that said that you are going to transport the public, so it is illegal for you to deny us. But they do, and that's one of the things that ASAP, for example, is really working on to address, to get Uber, to recognize that it has to enforce the law like everyone else. But it's a challenge. People come from all sorts of different points of view. You know, with   Michele Blood ** 39:59 the name like. Uber. How could they do that? They're not being very Uber.   40:04 Well, there you go.   Michele Blood ** 40:07 Wow. That's interesting in this day and age. Absolutely, it continues all too often. So many people have slipped into something more comfortable, like a coma. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 40:18 Now you and your team have created an app. I think it's called what magnet to money. Tell us about that. Yeah,   Michele Blood ** 40:24 it was interesting. Thanks, Michael. I wanted to do because sometimes people like you were talking earlier, how do they get out of their you know, their depression, or whatever they're going through that they're feeling, how do they get out of that rabbit hole? So if you're feeling that way, and your mindset is in a negative state of mind, and you're emotionally not feeling well, well, then it's very, very challenging for you to want to put on some positive, you know, affirmation music. Because I know when I was in the hospital, if people came in and they were too chirpy. I would couldn't wait for them to go because I wasn't oscillating at that frequency. Yeah, you know. So they're all Oh, hi. And so I thought, wouldn't it be great if we had an app and it would just play? As you know, they can choose the notifications how often it will play. And so Polly fella, Trevor Rogers and Johnny and Dara and myself, we worked really hard, especially Holly fella, to develop this app. And it took about two and a half years to develop it. And it's got morning meditations. It's got tons of affirmations with music underneath. It's got a sleep program to help. As they're sleeping, people are sleeping, I'm very softly saying affirmations and positive you know, feed, feed to their minds. And it's also got notifications, so the magnet to money song will play whatever they want to, so they don't have to even remember to and eventually, like someone the other day, said she was in a bank and she had the magnet to Money App, and she had it as her ringtone as well. And she's in this big bank that was hardly anybody in there, but it was quite chamber ish, Echo ish, and she said, and her phone was on pretty loud. It started, I'm a magnet to money came on really loud, and everyone started laughing. They're like, well, that's sort of, I guess, you know, a good thing to play in a bank. Yeah, works. So, yeah, the magnet to Money App is fantastic. App. It's got so much on it, and it's got an audio book you get for free from myself and Bob Proctor called magnet to money through the sea of unlimited consciousness, one one of our books that we did as an audio book, and we thought we've also got a free app, because that magnet to Money App is only about, I think it's $4 or something A month, but the affirmation power app is free, and on that tons of affirmations, plus my affirmation music videos is on there as well. So that's free, if anybody wants that.   Michael Hingson ** 43:13 So yeah, so is that available with Android and Apple and iPhone? No,   Michele Blood ** 43:17 just, just apple at the moment, because to develop for an Android is much more complicated because there are so many different companies, yeah, yes, whereas Apple, it's just the iPhone, but we do intend to, but it's, you know, we've got the manifestation video app as well, and we've got a New App coming out, which is all my audio books. And I'm doing a new audio book every month, not just my books on audio, but other people's books on audio as well. And then the next step after that, is a prayer app, talking about prayer, how to pray, and for me, teaching people the power of prayer. So it's really lovely to be able to do apps that have got positive, you know, the very, very, you know, if they were to buy all those individual products from me to cost hundreds dollars, and this way it's just a few dollars a month all free for them to get all my positive songs and books and all that sort of thing.   Michael Hingson ** 44:17 How do people search for these apps that in the in the app store. I think   Michele Blood ** 44:22 that if they just go under, look under Michelle blood, okay, under my name, yeah, okay, they'll just come up. I   Michael Hingson ** 44:29 will, I will be doing that this afternoon. I think that's that's pretty cool. You know, in in our world today, we become so materialistic in so many ways, but at the same time, a lot of people have really become students of your affirmations and so on. How did they really become students? And I think even more important, one of the questions that I would ask is. How does it really transform, or did it really transform people's consciousness and set them on a road toward a more spiritual path? Because I think in so many ways, we don't see people doing that, and at the same time, I know there are a lot of people who do, but by the same token, there's so many people who go, oh, this is just all pokem. It doesn't really mean anything, but that's just not true.   Michele Blood ** 45:24 Well, I think it's, it's an interesting question to answer, because there are so many different types of people in the world, and we can't expect to change people. They have to, you know, I don't want anyone to suffer. Michael, first of all, so I think having positive thoughts in their head is going to actually make them think less of themselves, believe it or not, these the way the lyrics are done, and more of joy and sharing and caring about other people, because it is so important to to do that, because people, if they get too much into themselves, Like I say to people, don't buy anything if you're buying it. For someone else to be to compliment you, that's a really good way of deciding what you're going to purchase in your life. If you're doing it to you know, to say, Oh, I've got this really nice car. Look how great I am. But get it if you want a good car. Get it because you want a nice, safe car that's good for the environment, but don't get it so that you will impress other people. Unless you're a real estate agent, they do need good cars, apparently, to drive people around, yeah, I guess so. Drive people around,   Michael Hingson ** 46:35 but, or drive people crazy, yeah,   Michele Blood ** 46:37 but. But I also think it's important that that if you want to, you can't tell someone to be more spiritual. They have to get into a positive frame of mindset first. Because when you're in a positive frame of mindset, you start feeling more of a heart blow, more love. And even if you don't believe in God, you believe in love everybody, I know you do, so whether it's your animal that you love, because every animal is an angel, whether it's nature, smelling the remembering to stop and smell the flowers, remembering to not let yourself complain. Complaining will take you down a rabbit hole of absolute negativity and please. People remember, the only reason you're complaining is because you're feeling fear about losing something or not getting something that you want. And so if you can stop complaining for 28 days straight, you will change your life. And I know that sounds impossible, but many people can do it, because I've seen my students do it. So if you can stop complaining and stop half if you're halfway through a complaint about something or someone or politics or Trump or whatever in the hell it is, stop yourself halfway through and just say, Why am I complaining? And people are complaining because they're in fear. If you can stop and be mindful enough to say, I'm complaining because I'm afraid of something, and I don't want to face it and find out what you're afraid of, the thing that you're afraid of will dissipate. Yeah, it really will. So I think that's a really good place to start listening to the positive songs, for sure, going to every single unstoppable mindset podcast you possibly can go to reading Michael's books, and also, just knowing that you can get out of that rabbit hole, it is totally possible, and I've seen it in people from all different cultures and religious backgrounds all over the world. I've traveled to so many different countries, and have so many different audiences, and everybody wants to be loved and be loved in return. And everybody wants to see other people happy at their core. They really do. We don't want to make people unhappy, do you? So stop complaining.   Michael Hingson ** 49:07 You know, it's, it's interesting that you, you talk about all this, one of the things that we talk a lot about, and you'll see it and live like the guide dog, is that we need to become more introspective. Because if we do and we really look at ourselves daily, and, for example, look at what worked today, what didn't work. Why didn't it work? You eventually get to what was I really afraid of? And if you really stop to think about that and go, I didn't need to be afraid of that, your life will change, which is really, as you're pointing out, what it's all about.   Michele Blood ** 49:44 Excellent, excellent. I'm looking forward to reading that as well, and then I've already told everyone to get thunder dog on all my lists. But now I'll be, after I read the next one, I'll be telling them to read that as well, because we're on the same page. Michael.   Michael Hingson ** 49:59 Tell me a little bit about something I've read in your bio, how you went from affirmations to a full kundalini awakening.   Michele Blood ** 50:09 Well, when I was working with Bob Proctor in Asia, I was saying to him one day, I feel this heart blow like I feel like my heart is out of my chest, and I feel such deep love. And it's not for any person, place or thing. It's for everything, actually, but it's beyond that. It's divine. And he said, you're looking for an enlightened teacher. That's what you need. And I said, Well, where do you find an enlightened teacher, and what exactly is that? And he got me to read Autobiography of a Yogi by Hara mahansa Yogananda. And I'd read it before, but I didn't really get it like I did this time when I read it, and I realized that enlightenment wasn't just one person. People can actually meditate and go into higher states of consciousness, but I wasn't thinking of how is an enlightened being around in this modern world? That can't be right? Because I it must be like unless it's Asia maybe. He said, I don't know. He said, I did have a Canadian man who was enlightened, who taught me for three years before he died, left the body. And he said, you just have to pray for it and know that the teacher and the student will find each other. It took me 14 years of searching all over the world, and eventually I found an enlightened teacher in all places America, and I decided to go off the grid, and I really had to to study with her as a student, because she didn't like us to be on Facebook or social media. She said, you don't want attention on yourself when you're studying with me, because you want to be able to go in deeply. Yeah. So I went off. I studied with her for 12 years, but after the first few years, I went into a full awakening myself, never expecting that. Didn't expect it to happen to me. I thought, how could a rock singer in Australia, have a kundalini awakening, but I did, and now I love to teach mysticism and spirituality and meditation practice to students from all over the world. And I love to do it. I think there's so many tools in the toolbox of life, whatever sort of personality you have, whether you're extremely religious or you just want to have more positive outcome. You want to become healthier. I think meditation practice is good for everybody. You do not have to be religious or think of spirituality to enjoy a quiet mind. It'll slow down your blood pressure. It will give you pump your blood, it'll stop your mind from going down a million rabbit holes where your senses take you. I just think meditation practice is a miraculous, privileged thing to do.   Michael Hingson ** 52:53 I agree. And you know, one of the things that it's a little bit off topic for what you just said, but we were talking earlier about people praying and looking for so many things. I'm amazed at how many people pray to God, telling God what they want and what they think they need. And I'm sitting there whenever I hear about that today, especially, I think, Wait a minute, God already knows that what you need to do is to listen to get the response, and thank God for the response, but people just don't do that. I'm just so amazed at at that. But it's it is so true that we spend too much time not doing the thing that we really need to do, which is listening and talking with God, not talking to God.   Michele Blood ** 53:46 Yeah, that's why I I'm loving recording the new prayer app, because I explain to people what prayer actually is. It's not If you do this for me, God, I'll start, stop eating pizza, yeah? Or maybe trade off. So I teach people what prayer actually is, and it's, it's really the most sacred thing and beautiful thing, and it will uplift you, even if you just, I've got a section where they I'm praying for others, so they can just listen to any different topic of what type of prayer, but the main thing for me was explaining, doing the introduction of what prayer is and how to pray, because so many people have no idea what prayer really is, that communion with your higher self, and once you get to understand what that is, then you can hear that still, small voice you can literally hear through. Ah, your intuition becomes stronger you can and intuition is you being in tune with your higher self. And your higher self is omniscient wisdom. It created everything so it knows what. To tell you to do, and it will bring into your experience everything when you accept, when you can be open and receptive to receive and to give, just sort of let yourself go, just surrender to that divine Higher Self, when you can learn how to do that. That's another thing that I do on this prayer app is teach you what surrender really means and how you can do it. It's not taking your willpower away from you, because everyone that's a gift that we've been given. So we can make good choices in life, sometimes bad choices, but we can use our willpower to get ourselves out of that rabbit hole. So thank you for asking that. Michael, it's   Michael Hingson ** 55:41 extremely important to be able to do that. Well, you mentioned earlier that you had gifts for people listening to this podcast. Love it if you tell us about that,   Michele Blood ** 55:52 yes, yummy gifts. If you go to Michelle. Blood com, it's spelled M, I, C, H, E, L, E, B, L, O, O, O, d.com, forward slash unstoppable mindset. We've called that. We've made that link especially for Michael's podcast. Just for your people, they will get the audio version of one of my favorite books I've written called the magic of affirmation power audio book. They will get that for free, but in that audio book has tons of affirmations you can repeat after me, links to some of my music for free. You'll also get a six week mysticism course, and there are other things as well. I can't remember what they are right now, but they're all on that link.   Michael Hingson ** 56:37 But Michelle blood com slash unstoppable mindset. I thank you for the otter. Appreciate that. Well now if people want to come hear you, I know you do live events and you do zoom events and so on. How can we learn about that? How can people do that?   Michele Blood ** 56:57 Well, they can go to request Divine light.com to find out what is my next event, because I have free events, a lot a lot of free zoom events people can come to, and you'll just get to meet so many happy, lovely people from so many different countries. And we just have a blast together. And you'll be very, very uplifted after everyone, because everyone that comes on are just, we seem to be attracting, over the years, just people that are really, sincerely wanting a better life and to do it, to do good in the world. And I just love them all so much. So if they go to request Divine Light com, they can see where my next free event will be. I mean, it's on Zoom, but I mean when it will be   Michael Hingson ** 57:46 right? Request, divine light. Com, cool. Well, I really appreciate you coming on. And obviously people can go to Michelle blood, com, and there's a lot there, I would assume as well. So hopefully people will go, go check out everything that's there, and we'll take this seriously, because I think there is so much that you have offered. We've had a number of people on unstoppable mindset who talk about everything from reg a to Eastern medicine, meditation and and so many things. They all can't be totally wrong. So from my perspective, they are not wrong. But by the same token, it's fun to be able to get a chance to to have you on. We'll have to do this again, and I'm going to certainly go download the apps and put them on my nice little iPhone and start taking advantage of them. But I really appreciate you coming on and and being with us for an hour today. Well,   Michele Blood ** 58:51 Michael, thank you for the books that you've written and everything that you've done in the world. I just think you're just an inspiration and just a lovely, lovely man. So thank you. It's, it's lovely getting to know you. And I'm just going to tell everyone about these books, because they're amazing, well written as well. Just really, really good.   Michael Hingson ** 59:13 Well, thank you. So, when are you going to do a podcast? I'm going   Michele Blood ** 59:17 to do a podcast with a man called just I just had a brain fart. Thomas Miller, uh, at the moment, his podcast is called subconscious mind mastery, and he's interviewed me quite a few times. We met in person, and I love his outlook on life, about really not saying no to anything that's mystical. And so we're going to start one next year together. He's already got his own, but this will be a different one where we'll go a little deeper, a deeper dive into mysticism. I think we're going to call it well,   Michael Hingson ** 59:55 if he needs a guess for his existing podcast, if he has guests or. You guys have your podcast together. If you ever want a guest, I volunteer. So I'll just, Oh,   Michele Blood ** 1:00:05 I'll tell him today. Goodness, yes,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:10 I'm, I'm always, I'm always open for that. Oh,   Michele Blood ** 1:00:13 I'll tell him today. Yeah, because you, I love you.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:18 Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope you enjoyed this at least half as much as I did, hopefully as much as I did. This has been a lot of fun and educational, I think, in so many ways, to help us deal with our outlooks on life. I'd love to hear your thoughts about it. Please feel free to email me. Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast website, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o, n. So Michael hingson.com/podcast, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We really value your reviews. But of course, love the five star ones, so if we can, we would really appreciate it if you give us a five star review and and say, say good things about us and and go off and definitely visit Michelle's pages. And, of course, being very prejudiced, go to Michelle blood com slash unstoppable mindset and get some free gifts from her. And if you know of anyone who you think would be a good guest, and Michelle you as well. I'm always looking for podcast guests, so okay, don't hesitate to to refer people to us. We appreciate that a whole lot. So once again, I want to thank you for being here. Michelle, this has been a lot of fun. Thank   Michele Blood ** 1:01:45 you. Michael, God bless you. More love everyone. More Love   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:54   You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

As our guest, Abby Havermann will tell you, not only teachers, but all of us should be life-long learners. Abby grew up in Boston and then made an attempt to leave the cold for Southern California and USC. However, after a year she decided that the USC and LA lifestyle wasn't for her and she moved back to the Boston area. She graduated college with a degree in Social Psychology. She also holds a Master's degree which she will talk about with us. Abby held jobs in the therapy and social work arena. She was married along the way, but ended up getting a divorce. She later remarried and worked for 12 years with her husband in the financial world. In 2018 she decided that talking with people about money wasn't for her. She left Finance and began her own business and now she teaches business and other leaders how to “unlearn what no longer serves them”. My conversation with Abby discusses fear, self perception and how to develop the skills to overcome fear and our own inner lack of confidence. Abby uses a variety of techniques including some “ancient methods” to work with her clients. You will hear about Abby's Ted Talk entitled “Women's Liberation is an inside job”. I will leave it to Abby to explain. I very much believe you will find this episode enthralling and relevant to our lives today. About the Guest: On the outside, Abby Havermann was leading what could easily be described as an enviable life - a respected couples therapist, adjunct faculty at the graduate level, married with an adorable child, and a white picket fence to boot. But many of her life choices had unconsciously been made through the lens of unworthiness - choices that weren't aligned for her. The Universe often does for us what we're unable to do for ourselves, and Abby's wake-up call was mortifying. She spent a long, dark night of the soul in an overcrowded jail cell when her relapsing addiction counselor husband had her bogusly arrested for domestic violence the day before she was scheduled to move out. That's when Abby identified the myriad of ways she'd betrayed herself and shifted her focus from what she was doing in the world to who she was being. Through this process, she took back her power and, through the ensuing decades, has delved deeper into the human potential movement, trained with world-renowned thought leaders, and the rest is history. A lifelong learner, Abby's singularity resides in combining her psychology, neuroscience, spiritual, and coaching experience with her ability to transform difficult life experiences into a gratitude-worthy self-evolutionary tool — awareness done right can breed transformation. Now, she teaches mission-driven, insight-oriented people to unlearn what no longer serves them through 1:1 and group coaching, speaking, training, and a soon-to-be-launched online course. Abby's direct signature style challenges clients to up-level while witnessing and holding compassion for the complexity of their multifaceted inner and outer worlds. Ways to connect with Abby: Website: https://www.abbyhavermann.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abby-havermann-93a915165 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/abby.havermann Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/abbyisworthy About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi everyone. I am your host, Mike Hingson, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we get to talk with Abby Havermann. Abby is I find a very interesting person. She teaches mission driven, purpose oriented inside executives to unlearn, and we won't go into the unlearning, because Abby's going to talk to us about that. And so I don't want to give anything away. I've read her bio, so I know, but at the same time, what I want to do is to let her do that. So Abby, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Abby Havermann ** 02:01 Thanks so much. I love your podcast, so I'm happy to be here as well. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:05 we love it too, and we appreciate the fact that you do well, why don't we start, as I love to do, by you telling us maybe something about the early Abby, growing up and all that, and I know that we were comparing notes, and you grew up in Boston. Love to hear about that, and Steve's ice cream parlor and all the other wonderful things about Boston. But anyway, and, and I guess one of my favorite places in Boston, Durkin Park, closed during the pandemic.   Abby Havermann ** 02:29 Ah, yeah, I'm not even, I know it's terrible. I'm not familiar with Durkin park   Michael Hingson ** 02:33 because I was in Quincy Market. And   Abby Havermann ** 02:35 Quincy Market, okay, yeah, for sure, the chip yard in Quincy Market is my favorite. Oh, I didn't go   Michael Hingson ** 02:43 there, but I went to Durgan Park several times, and I heard that they they closed. But, oh, sad, sad. But, well, tell us about the early Abbey.   Abby Havermann ** 02:56 Yeah. So, I mean, I grew up in, like you said, outside of Boston, and and I think just from a young age, I kind of came out pretty scrappy, and I had a big personality. I I always seemed to have something to say, and it wasn't always in favor of what people wanted to hear. I felt like I I noticed things. I kind of always wanted to talk about the elephant in the room, and that didn't really go over that well, but I had, you know, a close, you know, extended family, and spent lots of times with my grandparents and my cousins and my parents and siblings. And, you know, I mean, I don't think it was that unusual of a childhood, so to speak, but Boston is bone chilling cold. If you've lived there, you know that. And so I wanted to get out as quickly as I could. And so after high school, I hightailed it out and moved, actually, across the country to spend a year at University of Southern California. Yeah, yeah. But that was such a culture shock, you know, being on the west coast from the East Coast, that I just went right back. I went back to the East Coast. Until later, I moved to Colorado, and yeah, that's where I spent about 30 years. Well, Colorado   Michael Hingson ** 04:19 has its share of cold, I would point out, not   Abby Havermann ** 04:23 bone chilling cold, not bone chilling cold, you're right with a dry air. It's a totally different cold.   Michael Hingson ** 04:30 But the culture shock of being at fight on USC was greater of an issue than the bone chilling cold of being on the East Coast, huh? It was.   Abby Havermann ** 04:39 I mean, I just, you know, on the east coast, people like they're harder to get to know, but they say it like it is. They're very direct, you know. And when I went to California, I felt like it was so hard to get to know people, you just couldn't get very deep, you know. Or at least that's how I felt. Plus, I had been, I didn't realize how sheltered I had been. Um. Um, and it was a very big school, and in the middle of watts, and it was, it was a culture shock for for sure. And I wasn't a PAC 10 athlete, and I wasn't, you know, in sororities, and all the things that you know are, you know, very popular in that particular area. So it just it. And I, I, I, I was so insecure at that time in my life that I think I I could not have broken into either of those, even if I had wanted to. I just in my own way constantly. So I pretty much just came running back and, you know, flew out a white flag of defeat in terms of individuating. And   Michael Hingson ** 05:42 did you go back to Boston? I   Abby Havermann ** 05:44 actually went to Wheaton College, up outside of Boston. All right. Now,   Michael Hingson ** 05:48 what did you major in at USC? And did you follow through on that when you went back to Wheaton?   Abby Havermann ** 05:54 Well, back to my confidence issue when I went to USC, I actually declared a drama major. That's what I really wanted to declare. And I never took a single drama class because I did not have the confidence. And so when I went to Wheaton, I majored in social psychology, which was something that just came very easily to me, and I enjoyed and that's what I did. Ah,   Michael Hingson ** 06:15 so social psychology and you got a bachelor's. Did you go beyond that?   Abby Havermann ** 06:21 Yeah, I ended up getting a master's in social work at Smith College school for social work. And that's when I after that, I worked in several hospitals as an inpatient psychiatric social worker in Denver, and then shortly after that, I opened my own private practice, and I had that for little over a decade, and that's then I closed my practice and ended up going into business with my second husband as a financial advisor, because he had a financial firm, and I worked in his office with him for 12 years. And that's when I realized I want to talk to people, but not about money. And I had to go back to my roots, and so not as a psychotherapist, but that's when I went back to as a teacher of unlearning and coaching and having learned some about, you know, neuroscience and ancient wisdom practices and things like that that greatly informed the psychology teaching.   Michael Hingson ** 07:15 Now, when you say ancient wisdom practices, tell me a little about that, if you would. Yeah.   Abby Havermann ** 07:21 I mean, you know, there's so much out there. And you know, whether it's, you know, the thema and the teachings of Buddha, or whether it's, I do a lot of work with a guerrilla teacher, he's a mystic from the early 1900s and it weaves together. You know, the more I learn about all these different things, the more everything is seems to be coming back to the same thing. And science now is sort of uncovering things that they've known for so long, for 1000s of years, whatever the practice is, yoga, science, Buddhas, Buddhism, all of those kinds of things everywhere I turn it's, it all comes back to this. I mean, it comes back to so much. But this, this innate power that's in us to change, you know, this innate wisdom that we have. And this, the more I you know, think about it and learn about it and study with people about it. It's we have gotten so smart over time, but we've really not gotten any wiser. Yeah, and that's why I like going back and looking at some of those practices.   Michael Hingson ** 08:33 I was watching a news broadcast this morning, and one of the things that they mentioned was that there has been a study that says that at least one in four people wake up every day and have a bad day, and they know they're going to have a bad day because they wake up with a headache or whatever, and they know they can't Change having a bad day, which is bizarre to me. Yeah, I reject that concept. I think, as you are pointing out, that we do have control over that, but we have so many people, as I would put it, that don't listen to their inner voice. And you can say, listen to God or or whatever. But the bottom line is, we don't listen. And, course, we have a bad day because we don't listen to the answers that are right there in front of us.   Abby Havermann ** 09:26 Yeah. And we've been taught not to, right. We've literally been conditioned, you know, from, you know, the industrial age, you know, and all the learnings that we had, you know, with Newtonian physics and all that stuff, to just never, to always look at our outside circumstances. And it's what you're saying is so true, like the innate wisdom is in us, and it's the last place that we ever look, yeah, and, and, and, to your point, it's, it's unbelievable. We we are taught to think it's like, oh. Something happens, we have an emotional reaction to it, and it's like, oh, now I'm just stuck with these emotions. Nothing I can do now. I'm just here with this. And that's the bit, right? Like, that's the dream that people like you and I have to, like, help people understand that. No, no, no, you you have the power to change your brain and body. You don't have to live by that.   Michael Hingson ** 10:18 How do we get people to understand that. I mean, obviously that's part of what you do. So how do you, how do you get people to unlearn that kind of, I won't even say it's a concept, because it's not, it's just a bad message. But how do people unlearn that?   Abby Havermann ** 10:37 Well, yeah, I mean, first we have to understand like that. We came upon it honestly, right, like that, that we're really in fight or flight so much of the time, that the way we've evolved was for survival. And if you're going to evolve for survival, you're going to be looking into your environment to find out, you know, what you need to do to keep yourself safe. So we're our brains are wired to look outside ourselves and say, Oh, this is the problem. I need to fix that. And if I fix that, I can be safe. And so we're very rarely looking inside ourselves. And in fact, when you're under stress, you physiologically can't look inside yourself, because you're in a state of where you're like, run by your hide. Where do I need to go? You know? How do I need to keep myself safe? You're not looking in yourself and be like, Oh, let me ponder. You know how to evolve myself today, right? So part of it is teaching people, literally, how to physiologically shift, to open up the centers of the brain that are more aligned with curiosity and community and and the empathy circuitry and all of the things where that wisdom we can really plug into the wisdom, the wisdom that's in your heart, right helping people understand that we store emotions in our bodies, and those thoughts and emotions that we're firing are creating our actions unconsciously. And it's not hard to get someone to understand it. As soon as you start talking to them, right, because you can give so many examples, they're like, oh, my god, yeah, you're right. When this happened, then I automatically and unconsciously, you know, had this thought and feeling, and then I acted this way, and before I knew it, you know, the whatever, there was an argument with my co worker, or the team meeting blew up, or, you know, whatever happened. And as soon, as soon as they begin to get curious about how their own behavior, their own thoughts and emotions, can impact the people around them, that's empowering, right? That's when you realize you really do have power. It's not I'm going to empower you to be able to have a voice. No, it's, it's being empowered inside of yourself to recognize the power that's already inherently there.   Michael Hingson ** 12:50 I love something you said, though, which is that this is what we're taught, and I think that that's exactly right. I don't think we're born that way, necessarily, but that is what we're taught. Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 13:03 no, we are, and not only that, we're encouraged to, right? I mean, like, I read somewhere, I don't know if it was maybe in the book letting go. I can't remember, but how Freud's was really misunderstood when he talked about expression versus repression, that the idea was not, wasn't intended to be that if you just say your emotions out loud, you will release them. And this is what we've kind of been taught from ancient, you know, like back in the psychology, and even in psychology in school for you know, that degree, it's sort of like all we need to do is just express what's going on. So now we're complaining to each other where, you know, and everybody's going, Oh, you're right. You have a right to feel this way. Yes, this is terrible. This is terrible. And yes, we do have a right to feel this way. I mean, you know, right better than anybody. I have a one of the reasons I was so attracted to your podcast is that I have a child who has a disability. And, you know, there's lots and lots of reasons to feel bummed out or upset or limited, right? That's not the question. The question is, do you really want to   Michael Hingson ** 14:11 That's right? The reality is, you may have the right to do it, because you have the right to make choices, but on the other hand, is that really the best choice? And the answer is not really Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 14:25 and not because you're a better person if you don't, not because you get kudos, you know, but because your life is better, because you determine how you know whether you're happy or sad or resentful, you know, or holding a grudge, you know?   Michael Hingson ** 14:41 Yeah, I agree. And I see it so often. I remember so many times I'm asked what you were in the World Trade Center and you escaped. Did you go through a lot of therapy? Because you seem like you're pretty normal now, whatever that means. And I point out, no. No, I didn't go through counseling directly, but what I did, and it was a little bit unconscious, at least, I didn't think about this as a reason for doing it, but my wife and I agreed that talking about the World Trade Center attacks and allowing people to hire me to come and do speeches and talk about the lessons we should learn, made me pretty visible, and a lot of reporters wanted to do interviews. And the reality is that my therapy ended up being the media coming into our home literally hundreds of interviews, asking every question from the most inane to the most insightful you can imagine, but that made me talk about it, and that's I think the biggest key is being able to talk about it, and recognizing, as you do that you're thinking about it, and that causes your brain to help you be able to put it all in perspective, whatever that may be and whatever it is,   Abby Havermann ** 16:07 yeah, and I think you know what you're talking about is so important, because I think we get mixed up so easily between what is the difference between acknowledging what happened to you and dwelling in what happened to you. And it is so important to be able to talk about it and acknowledge like the feelings that you have, and not deny those. If we just think, well, I should be, I should, in quotes, be able to, you know, be in a great, great mood, even though I feel like crap or whatever, and you just keep trying that it's not going to work you. You have to acknowledge what is. You have to be truthful about what is but understanding that you have the power to overcome and all of that resides inside of you, and it may take, depending on whatever happened, maybe you're over it in 30 seconds. 911 going to take a lot longer, right? Like you have the patience to to to walk through that with yourself, but understanding that it's not what happens to us in our lives that's important. It's it's how we react to it, right, what we think of it. And look at what you've made of that, right? Like, what a phenomenal story, what a horrific, you know, accident and not an accident, horrific event. And look at how many people you've touched as a result, and how many people you've taught and how many lives you've changed well.   Michael Hingson ** 17:26 And one of the things I realized at the beginning of the pandemic, and we've talked about it some here on the podcast, is that while I wasn't I won't say I wasn't afraid. On September 11, I had learned to control fear because I prepared for the eventuality that there could be an emergency. And there had been a bombing in the World Trade Center in 1993 in the parking lot. It didn't do a lot of damage, but nevertheless, it caused a lot of people who bought at the World Trade Center. So I came along at a time when I was hired to open an office, and in opening the office, we got a great rent, got a great price for it, and we moved in, and I immediately started spending a good amount of time learning all I could about the complex including what all the emergency and evacuation procedures were, emergency preparedness, what to do, Where the emergency exits were, and how to get anywhere, I needed to go, not just one way, but every possible way to get around. And that was something that, as I mentioned before, about physics and paying attention to details, that's the whole point of it. But what all that did was actually, although I never thought about it for many years afterward. But what that really did was created in me a mindset that you know what to do. Well, an emergency happened, and I was able to let that mindset take over, and as I describe it to people, allowed my fear to be a guide and a device that helped me stay motivated and focused, rather than the fear overwhelming, or, as I put it, blinding me to what was going on, so I couldn't make a decision. And I believe that we do have that capability. We don't need to allow fear to overwhelm us and to make life impossible on it. Yeah, I understand there's a natural reaction, and people have physical reactions when they're afraid and so on. But the reality is, from a mind standpoint, you do have the ability to control that, and so you do have the ability to take that fear and make it a positive thing and not a negative thing that overwhelms you, because you suddenly totally just feel helpless.   Abby Havermann ** 19:46 Yeah, I mean, there's so much to unpack in what you just said. I mean, you know, I guess one of, one of the things is that, you know, when I think about it's like, obviously, that's such a feel for situation. But I often think about the degree to which people are in. Fear just on a daily basis. You know, when you talk to business owners and you know the fear that realistic or not, you know that financial ruins going to happen, the fear of, you know, what am I going to look like when I get up on stage and give this presentation, the fear that you know you're not going to be able to, you know, make the quota, the fear that your boss is going to be upset. You know, all of these things are, you know, the fear of what's going to happen with your children. You know, all of this futuristic thinking, like, literally, if you think about it, I feel like we are in fear so much of the time, and it's just an unconscious process at this point. And to your point about it's not just your mind, right? Like, because the mind can't really get us out of fear. The mind just sort of chatters to itself, and the fear is stored in your body. And so really, having an understanding of how the mind and the body work together is so important to be able to overcome those emotions, because emotions are stored in your body. We can talk to I mean, how many times have you talked to people that are talking themselves, trying to talk themselves out of feeling a certain way? You cannot talk yourself out of feeling something? It won't work, and then you'll just end up feeling, you know, deflated because you couldn't do it. It's really a combination of understanding with your mind what you what needs to happen with your body as well. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 21:32 what you have to do is to learn how to step back and say, what is that is really a problem for me right now, what do I what am I really afraid of? And should I be afraid of it? One of the things that I have talked about a fair amount regarding September 11 is that I realized that there are a lot of things over which we don't have control, and if we, as we usually tend to do, what if the world to death and worry about everything in the world that goes on, rather than focusing on the things over which we really do have control, we're going to have more and more fear. We're going to just drive ourselves crazy, and we're going to continue to do what we've always done. But the reality is, and I think a lot does have to do with the mind, but it is also communicating with the body. It's a mind body process. But the ultimate issue is that we have to decide and learn how to take that control and focus just on the things that we really have influence over and not worry about the rest of it. So one of the things that I did when the pandemic started was to begin writing a book called, as it turns out, live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the idea behind the book is to teach people how to control fear. And I use examples of lessons that I have learned from working with eight guide dogs and my wife service dog, the lessons that I learned from them that when we apply them, will help us really deal with fear in the right way. So it's all about learning to control that fear. And you know, as an example, what if, as I said, we What if everything to death, and most of the time we don't have any control over it, and it isn't going to happen anyway, but we spend so much time worrying about it that we don't focus on the what ifs or the the issues that are directly really relevant to us.   Abby Havermann ** 23:40 Yeah, yeah. And that that, what if question that analytic brain is really what separates us from from dogs and animals, right? We have the ability to get stuck in this analysis paralysis, and we've been sort of taught like hanging out in that left brain is really it's the more important place to be. And if we just keep going around and around and chewing on something, we'll get an answer to your point all the way back to the beginning of what you said without looking inside ourselves at all, which doesn't require really any thought. It's more sensory oriented. You know what needs to be done here? And it's really I find, you know what I've learned throughout the years, and what I teach is that, and practice is that it's when you settled your nervous system down, you know, when you stop, you know, feeding into a dysregulated nervous system that those options are available to you, and you're able to kind of stop the fear and just observe, rather than analyze, what's going on   Michael Hingson ** 24:46 well, and we really can do that. One of the things that I talk about live like a guide dog, which was published in August of 2024 is that if we would take time. Time at the end of every day to step back as we're falling asleep, even when it's quiet, and look at what happened today, what worked, what didn't work, and and I reject the the concept that anything is a failure. It's a learning experience. And good things that happen to us are learning experiences. How could I have done that better than I did. What else could I have done, but in the case of things that are a problem that we tend to dwell on, why is it a problem? What was I afraid of? How do I deal with that, and really taking the time to start to deal with answering those kinds of questions and doing it regularly, and practicing it is what is going to start to allow us to be able to use our minds to communicate with the rest of us and move forward a much more positive way, and maybe tomorrow, not wake up with a bad day,   Abby Havermann ** 25:54 right? And and, like you say, being able to do that from an objective standpoint, I so much of what I see is that people just beat the hell out of themselves. Yup, so that simple exercise of, you know, what do I love, about what, what I did and what, what would I do differently, becomes, you know, a session of self flagellation, of like, I'm so terrible and I did this and that that wrong, and blah, blah, blah, blah, or the opposite, where it's like, I didn't do anything wrong, and we completely, you know, dissociate from the parts of ourselves that are showing up that aren't useful in a situation. And when you can teach people to sort of have more of that objective focus, because they have, you know, they've built a part inside themselves that can be loving and empathic toward themselves and others that they can stop and say, All right, well, let's see what, what do I love about what I did, and what do I need to do differently next time to make it go differently, it's not, it's not a it's not about your horrible person or your great person. It's nothing to do with that right.   Michael Hingson ** 26:57 And the issue is, when you talk about, what did I do wrong? You didn't think it was wrong until it didn't go the way you wanted. And so it doesn't mean that that you intentionally made a mistake or anything like that. So you got to be able to step back and say, so what really happened here? What do I learn from it? I've learned that one of the most important things I can say is not that I'm my own worst critic, but rather I'm my own best teacher, which is much more positive anyway. But you know, the fact of the matter is that we worry about so many things so much, the Mark Twain and other people who have made comments about fear point out that most everything we're afraid of or fear will never come to pass, and we just spend way too much time worrying about it, and it drives us crazy. Well,   Abby Havermann ** 27:52 yeah, and you know what you were just saying? You know, I mean, one of the things that I bring to teams and organizations, one of the modalities that I use is Positive Intelligence, which was created by Sherzad, you know, he talks about the the sage perspective, which is, everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity, right? And when you're looking at it from that standpoint, if everything can be turned into a gift and opportunity, there is no failure. There is nothing to beat yourself up about. It's just a curiosity of like, okay, what's the gift here? And it's very hard, I think, when people are under intense stress in business and, you know, dysregulated and dealing with all kinds of things, to be able to stop and think there might be a gift in losing this client, or there might be a gift in having to do these layoffs, but there always is. There always is,   Michael Hingson ** 28:53 well, and the the other part about it is, when you talk about stress, how much of the stress, if you will, that we feel is induced by us, yeah, because we don't learn to step back and and look at it in a little bit more of an objective way.   Abby Havermann ** 29:12 Well, it's reinforced by us, right? Like we we are firing the same thoughts and we're firing the same emotions, and we're doing that over and over and over and over again, and we're dumping more and more cortisol in our bodies, right?   Michael Hingson ** 29:24 And we're not learning a thing, or we're not learning a thing, it's there to learn, but we're not learning it. Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 29:32 exactly, yeah. And people are becoming more and more divided, you know? But the great news is that, you know, it doesn't have to be that way, right? It doesn't have to be that way. And that's, you know, why I think you know the message that that you put out there is, is so very, very important.   Michael Hingson ** 29:54 Well, I think it is, and I think that we can learn. And that we can progress in a in a much more positive way, and we may discover along the way that we end up doing some of the same things that we did, but for different reasons, and maybe they really weren't such bad things anyway.   Abby Havermann ** 30:18 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have, you know, I have clients who have had to, you know, lay off people, you know, and when you're a business owner, you're leaning off people. It feels like the worst thing in the world. You feel like, I know I've done it, yeah, right. I mean, people go into they feel like they failed, they feel guilty, they feel worried about the rest of their employees. And when you start to really unpack it, you know the truth of the matter becomes something else. First of all, if you you know are having to go through a layoff or something, you're typically anything that you do, that you're doing right now, next year, you're going to be doing at a bigger you're going to be playing on a bigger stage. So if you're laying off in your businesses this size next year, you're going to avoid whatever the problem was that caused you to have to do that when you're playing with a bigger stage, when there's more money on the line, right? Yeah, you know that there's when you can approach the world and understanding that your failures are your lessons, and sometimes God does for us what we can't do for ourselves. You know, it makes life a lot easier to get through. You know, we don't end up holding on to the same things, and we learn, like you're saying, faster, instead of continuing to do the same thing over and over again and making the same mistakes over and over again,   Michael Hingson ** 31:39 life gives us the opportunity to really live an adventure and grow if we choose to do it. Unfortunately, all too often, people just won't do it.   Abby Havermann ** 31:51 Yeah, well, I mean, I always say, like not everybody, not every soul is here to evolve. Not every soul is here to do the same thing. And we need, we need everybody here, right? But there's a there's a collective conscious, right? And some people are here to evolve to a certain place. Some people are here to go beyond. Some people are here to just do it all over again,   Michael Hingson ** 32:15 well, but those people who do it all over again hopefully eventually get to the point where they can evolve. And that's part of the issue, of course, is, when are you going to decide to do that? Well,   Abby Havermann ** 32:26 it's never, it's never ending, right? It's like, there is no evolved. It's we're evolving, right? Like, I hope. I like to think that I'm overcoming things in this lifetime that I won't have to come back and do it another but I'm sure they're saying that I'm not, you know, like, so it's a, it's a never ending process, but I think we are. We're taught, you know, that we're not well. We're not taught that. We're not taught that, you know, life is a playground. You know,   Michael Hingson ** 32:56 no, we're not. We're constantly taught that life is hard and so many other things. Rather than Life is an adventure, we can have fun. We ought to have fun. And yeah, there are times to be serious, but still, you can do that in a positive way.   Abby Havermann ** 33:13 Yeah, exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 33:16 I don't know. Maybe Mark Twain was right. I wonder if God had read a man because he was disappointed in the monkeys, but we won't go there. Well,   Abby Havermann ** 33:22 I feel like that now, like, you know, somebody's looking down on us and going, Oh, you guys haven't learned anything yet. Let me throw, let me throw some more things for you to get really upset and divided about and see if you see if you can learn now, and keep kind of proving over and over again that we're not going to learn. We need to keep, we need to keep experiencing all of these things   Michael Hingson ** 33:44 well. But he's probably pleased when somebody does learn. And so that's good too, right? Right?   Abby Havermann ** 33:50 Because it's a collective right? So the more people that begin to start to look inward instead of outward, and begin to see that, you know, they have that power inside themselves. I always say, like, I always wonder, what would it be like, you know, if, if, instead of, you know, focusing on these external things, we were all always focused internally. So something upsets me, and instead of saying, You upset me, or this thing upset me, I immediately go inward and say, Isn't this curious that this, this upset me so much. I wonder what that's about. And if I'm taking care of all of that inside of me, and you're taking care of all of it that's going on inside of you, there's really nothing to argue about. Yeah, and you have more control over your life because you don't have control over what other people do. You can ask them to do things differently. You can say you're upset about it. You can try and manipulate your life so you don't have to deal with things. But at the end of the day, you ultimately don't have control over it. It might work 50% of the time, maybe, if you're lucky, the only thing you have complete control over is how you react to something, right? And   Michael Hingson ** 34:59 that's going to tell. Next steps, and that's what we need to learn to do, is to do a better job of truly reacting, whatever that may mean in any given situation, rather than doing knee jerk reactions to something, and not necessarily doing a very positive or helpful thing. But the reality is, we can learn to listen to that voice inside of us that is there to tell us how to react if we choose to use it and listen to it.   Abby Havermann ** 35:27 And I would say, not even react, but respond. Right? The word responsibility, it's the ability to respond. You know, reacting is what I'm doing when I'm my nervous system is already dysregulated. Right? Responding, you know, is something we can train ourselves to be able to do, to stop, and it doesn't, you know, it doesn't happen overnight. And there's different things that that happen that are going to trigger you more than other things,   Michael Hingson ** 35:55 right? So, when did you start teaching and doing what you're doing now.   Abby Havermann ** 36:03 Well, I after I left my the financial advising, and during that time, I begin to really learn a lot about neuroscience and study under some mentors. And that's when I really realized, like, Oh, this is, this was sort of the missing link for me as a psychotherapist, this is, like it reaffirmed some things that I kind of intuitively knew. And so I began to start doing it in one on one, coaching and teaching in that sense. And then eventually, you know, doing groups and working with teams and things like that since then, so and just kind of bringing all of the modalities that I use together to help people get unstuck, help teams get unstuck, so that, you know, it's possible to to work in ease and flow. And we've all had those times, I hope, where you have a day where you know, you're just running around with your hairs on fire, and you're going from one thing to the next, the next, versus also, you have a day where it's like, gosh, everything just went smoothly. And I didn't worry about time, and I got ended up getting more done than I ever thought I could. You know, like we have control over what kind of day we're going to have. And so it becomes so important, because when we can go into our work or office or our meetings with our clients, instead of being hijacked by all these thoughts of like, Oh, am I prepared? What are they going to think? Oh, my God, that all of these things, instead of going in from, you know, in a place where you're grounded, and what I call inside out instead of outside in, like, worrying about, what do they need? Instead of what am I here to be of service with? It makes everything flow. And I think we need more people in flow and less people in stress and anxiety. So that's kind of when I, when I really started, started to do it. Because I can tell you, in the financial services industry, there's a lot of people in stress   Michael Hingson ** 38:10 and anxiety. Yeah, well, having sold on Wall Street for for many years, and watching traders and, oh yeah, all the things that go on. Yeah, I hear exactly what you're saying. What did your husband think when you decided to leave the financial industry and go back into more of what you're doing now?   Abby Havermann ** 38:28 Well, I don't think he was thrilled, because it left him with, you know, a lot of extra work. But you know, we had actually transitioned at one point. I mean, we were, I was thinking, God, what do I need to do? Like, something's missing. I thought maybe I needed a hobby. So I started to, you know, I joined a choir, and I started writing, and I started doing all these things, and that's what I kind of realized. It's, it's not that I need a hobby, it's that I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. And we had, even, you know, started working with women, and I had been running women's seminars, which were really fun, and he had sort of done more of, like, more of the back end stuff, and I was able to talk to women and all of those things. But even that wasn't enough. And so on the one hand, he wasn't thrilled, and on another, he totally understood that I'm here to do something different, you know, and I you, I really believe that you have to do what makes your heart sing in this in this lifetime, you know? So it was a transition. But he, he's my husband's a rock. I'm very lucky. He's, he's, he's always right there, backing me up. So I was lucky,   Michael Hingson ** 39:37 and he's coping with it well these days, I assume   Abby Havermann ** 39:40 he is, oh yeah, now, yeah. And what we built together, you know, he's able to have the business and the life that that he loves as well. I mean, he's, he was doing it long before me, and, you know, we'll do it long after. So how   Michael Hingson ** 39:56 long ago was it that you left the financial. Environment and started what you're doing   Abby Havermann ** 40:02 now, that was in 2018 Okay, so I started in psychotherapy in 97 and then I started in the financial industry in 2007 ish, and then left in 2018   Michael Hingson ** 40:17 well, but I bet, if you really think about it. And probably you have, you could point out things that you learned during your time in the financial world that that help you today.   Abby Havermann ** 40:27 Oh, of course. I mean, yeah, I mean, right, the whole there was no mistake, right? And I that was, there was lots of gifts that came out of that for me, right? Not, you know, not to mention that I really understand the pressures, the unique pressures of that industry and what people are dealing with, and that informs the work that I do now. But also, even just the self discovery of like, wow, you know it? I didn't need a hobby. I wasn't listening to myself. I was out of alignment? Yeah, no, and that's okay too, because you know what? Doing something for the family, doing something for the people that that I worked with, and being of service in that way was also a gift, you know? So, no regrets for sure,   Michael Hingson ** 41:18 no. And I think that's really the issue you're you're comfortable with what you're doing, and so you shouldn't have to have regrets. And again, you learned a lot, and you recognize that, and that's the most important thing.   Abby Havermann ** 41:33 Yeah, I think having a perspective in life, that everything is truly happening as it should is is important, and if nothing else, really helps you get through a lot easier, right? Because lots of people find themselves in situations, you know, whether it's a divorce, you know, which I had that too, or, you know, things happen that people will beat themselves up about and just feel terrible. How can I do that? And why did this happen? And all of these things, and it's it, it you don't have to have an answer to that. It just did happen. Yeah, right, so, and, and what, what is the opportunity for you in moving through that? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:14 well, I've never experienced divorce directly. My brother went through one, and I'm not under the circumstances, we weren't too surprised. But, you know, he was where he was and all that. But my wife and I were married for 40 years, and as I mentioned, she passed away. And so now, as I tell people, I have to be a good kid, because I know that somewhere she's monitoring, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. It's as simple   Abby Havermann ** 42:42 as that. And do you? Do you? Do you hear from her? Um,   Michael Hingson ** 42:46 oh, I hear from her, but I haven't heard anything negative, so I guess I'm behaving.   42:51 Oh, that's good. That's good. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 42:54 yeah. I mean, she's she's here, she's monitoring, and, yeah, that's perfectly fine.   Abby Havermann ** 43:00 I always love to hear stories of that, you know, particularly for people who've been married a long time, like, what ways the their person shows up, you know, how you know they're here? Because so many people, you know, when I grew up, my grandmother used to say Dead is dead, and it was absolutely terrifying to believe like that was the end, you know. And so I love hearing people talk about, you know, where, where they, where they feel they, where they, where they feel their loved ones, you know, how they know that they're there? About   Michael Hingson ** 43:33 six months after she passed, I remember waking up in the middle of the night because someone or something had taken a hold of my hand as an example. And it wasn't the cat, and as soon as I woke up, then it was gone. But I know it was there, so, yeah, she's she's monitoring. It's okay. Yeah, I'm good with that. Now, along the way, you delivered a TED talk. How long ago was that?   Abby Havermann ** 43:58 Oh, that was in 2022,   Michael Hingson ** 44:01 okay, so, so the pandemic had started to lift and all that. What if you would tell me about the the TED talk, and what that was all about, and and so on.   Abby Havermann ** 44:10 Yeah, well, the TED talk really came about. It's something I think I've wanted to do for a long time, but it came about actually as a result of my divorce and what I went through during that time, and that was really when I had this kind of come to Jesus, that I realized that the things that had happened in my life that I was not in favor of were directly related to a self betrayal. In other words, it wasn't anyone else's fault that these things happened to me or that I went through them. It was that I consistently, as we said in the beginning, did not go inside, did not listen to my inner voice, betrayed myself in any number of ways by, you know, deferring to what other people thought or making. Decisions, because I didn't think I was worthy of something else, or whatever it was. And it was like, wow, it hit me in the face. It was sort of like there was nowhere else for me to go but jail. Like, literally, I was already in prison because I was not listening to myself at all. And so I had that experience, and then years later, I actually was at a an assembly for my son, who was like, 10 years later, was then in middle school, and they were doing an assembly on sexting for middle school kids, because there was this pandemic and epidemic of kids sexting. And at the time in Colorado, that was a class three felony, and there was really nothing they could do to get it off somebody's record. So they were doing an Internet safety and I was listening to the cop up there talking about what was happening, and he said something that, you know, just really shook me, which was that, you know the he would ask the boys, why do you why do you make them send Why do you pressure these girls into sending pictures? And the boys would say, well, because I wanted to see a picture of her naked. And then they would ask the girls, why? Why are you sending it? And the girls would always say, and I knew exactly what he was going to say. They they said, because I wanted him to love me. And it really brought me back to all the self betrayals I had had as a young a young woman. And, and I thought, my God, nothing has changed. I mean, that was in 2003 right? I was born in 1970 so I just thought, wow, we are still doing the same thing over and over again. And, and it really spurred me to want to tell that story and spread this word, that we have the ability to get out of our own ways, that we can. We don't need, we don't need new legislation, and not that, I'm not that it's not great, and not that we shouldn't have it, but we don't need other people to empower us. We need to empower ourselves. And so that was kind of what my what my TED talk was about.   Michael Hingson ** 47:09 Um, so the title of your talk was, women's liberation is an inside job. Interesting title,   Abby Havermann ** 47:14 yeah, well, and that's literally the truth, right? Like, let you know if you think of like, the biggest extremes of this, of course, are people like Viktor Frankl, you know, who you know talks about how he was in the concentration camps. And you know Man's Search for Meaning, you know how he was liberated, even in the most you know, horrific circumstances. And I really believe that liberation is an inside job for all of us. That is not just for women, but for everyone. It's to me doing a TED talk was great. It was a bucket list thing. I'm so happy I did it. But what makes me feel the most proud of myself is when I overcome some part of myself. That is what makes me feel liberated when something goes wrong in my inner in my external world and my inner world doesn't go crazy, I'm like, oh my god, that is freedom. When something happens in my external world and I lose it or I go into a funk, that's prison. To me. Liberation is being able to be in ease and flow, no matter what is happening in our outer world, and no matter who is irritating us, or what life circumstances plopped in my lap. Yeah, that's kind of how I mean that, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 48:36 well, and I gather that the that the talk went well and was well received, I assume,   Abby Havermann ** 48:44 yeah, I mean, I think that it, they forced some edits on it, which I understand in hindsight. I wish I had known, but I would could have told the story differently. But no, it was. It was very well received. And I often hear from people who tell me that they that they shared it widely, and it was impactful. So, but you know, if you, if you unpack just one, one other person, you know, like, it's worth it. Yeah, worth it. So it didn't go viral. You know, it didn't, it wasn't as big as, you know, many TED talks are, but that's okay, you know, people came up to me after and said, You know, I'm the person you needed to talk to. And I was like, All right, now my job's done. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 49:27 you You did. You did well, or, as I like to say, you done good. And, yeah, and that's what's important. You talk about the dark night of the soul. What is that? Well, the   Abby Havermann ** 49:39 dark night of the soul is, you know, that come to Jesus moment. And I always say, you know, when I write in my newsletters, I often write about, you know, come to Jesus moments and dark nights of soul. And I always say, you know, if you haven't had one of these, and then you're probably not for me, because, you know, or I'm probably not for you. Is really how that is, because it's the dark night of the soul. Is. Is when you really come face to face with yourself, and you can no longer, you know, blame other people. You can no longer not change. You realize that something's happening and it's requiring you to be a different person, and you see something in yourself that maybe you don't like, you know, or you see something that you realize you can't have. It's not going to work. It's not going to be the way you keep trying to make it be. And you have to come up against yourself and make some really hard decisions and some hard choices and see things in yourself that maybe you don't want to see, you don't want to know about. You'd rather think about yourself in a different way. Yeah, the dark night. Have you had one? I'm   Michael Hingson ** 50:44 not thinking of one right off, but I am sure I have,   Abby Havermann ** 50:47 yeah, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 50:51 I think that we all have, yeah. Actually, I can. Can think of some where I was behaving in particular ways. And sometimes it's I learn about it because somebody comes along and said, You're a dirt bag, or you misbehaved, or the way you're treating people, and I've had to think about that. But I think for me, although I didn't notice it until somebody mentioned it, when it occurs and somebody says something, my immediate reaction is to think about that and to internalize it, and to go back and look at, well, what, what is the issue? And sometimes I have realized that it wasn't me and somebody's being manipulative, but sometimes it is me, and it is important to be able to get introspective and think about what is occurring and and look at what's going on and what part of it is you, and what part of it is not you,   Abby Havermann ** 51:49 yeah. And I think it's, you know? I mean, it's so impossible to really, truly know ourselves and have a really accurate picture of ourselves. We all have a picture of ourselves, but it's, it's never really accurate, because of the way our brains are wired and so continuing to be open and curious like that, I think is is so important. And we, you know, you come to your own truth, right? But I think truth is so important to be truthful to yourself, whether it's whether you're throwing yourself under the bus that's not truthful. You know, whether you're saying, Oh, I suck at this, or whatever I made, you know what? That's not truthful, or whether you're tooting your own horn, and that's not entirely truthful. No, you know. It's a you know, to me, like self introspection, like that's that is where it's at. That, to me, is the most fascinating and the quickest road to success and growth you can possibly have. It's not, it's not what's happening externally. It's, it's, how are you actualizing yourself within? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 52:58 and that's why it gets back to really learning how to step back and look at situations and looking at all aspects of it to make a final decision about, what do I need to do, if anything, to address the issue, whatever it may be,   Abby Havermann ** 53:15 yeah, and I think, you know, there's value in that. Of course there is, but a lot of times that's a that's an analysis, and a lot of times we need to step away from the analysis, and we need to just with it and observe it and just be curious about it. Oh, exactly, and be okay with what is. And that's sometimes when the biggest answers come to us. I think that's why, you know they say that the right brain processes 800 times faster than the left brain, because the left brain is worried. What do I need to do differently? How do I need to analysis, analysis, analysis. Whereas when you can settle your brain and body down, whether it's through a meditation or a heart math practice or a Positive Intelligence practice or what, whatever it is, sometimes the answer is right there it like drops in, you know, just the way you had, you felt your wife hold your hand, right, you know. And it just happened so much faster than all of the thinking and the planning and the spreadsheets and the that you that we put ourselves through trying to come up with the quote right answer,   Michael Hingson ** 54:21 yeah. And I don't want to make it really clear, I'm not necessarily advocating just analysis, and I'm not analysis, though, what I think analysis can do is lead to you opening up and dealing with the rest of the issues. So analysis may be a starting point, but it's not the end all solution,   Abby Havermann ** 54:43 yeah, and it, and we need to be careful about getting stuck in it, yeah? Oh, absolutely stuck in that place of over, you know, going over and over that,   Michael Hingson ** 54:53 because that takes us right back to where we were before. Well, right? Because   Abby Havermann ** 54:56 Einstein said, you know, you can't solve a problem from the same level. Level of mind that created it, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:03 Yeah. And so you can go back and look at, well, what what happened? What is it the people are saying and all that, but you've got to go further than that. And so it, it is emotional as well as anything else, which is probably why we haven't met Vulcans like Mr. Spock yet.   Abby Havermann ** 55:23 Well, yeah, I mean, and that's the thing, right? It's like people are emotional beings, right? So we think that we need to work things out logically and everything, but emotions are not logical, and so much of life and business is about relationships, right?   Michael Hingson ** 55:38 But the but the one thing that we can do, though, is that it gets back to introspection in all forms. We do need to learn how to step back and allow ourselves to listen to that inner voice to come up with the best solution, because that's where the best solution will always be.   Abby Havermann ** 55:59 Yeah, yeah. So true. And so many people doubt it. So many people doubt that it's inside them. You know, they'll come and be like, What do you think? What do you think? And I always say it's, I could tell you what I think, but you'll end up working with me far longer than you need to, because it's not what you think. So let's, let's do some let's dive in and find out what your inner wisdom is telling you, because that's the only way you're going to rest, that's the only way you're going to know for certain, right, the right thing to do, because you feel it in your bones.   Michael Hingson ** 56:30 How do people who think less of themselves or don't have a lot of self worth? How can you help them move forward to becoming more confident, and I mean that in a positive way, as opposed to just developing an ego, and I'm great, and that's all there is to it. But how do you get people, or how do you help move people from a lack of self worth to self confidence? Yeah,   Abby Havermann ** 56:52 I mean, I think that self worth is, like one of the biggest, if not the biggest, problem that we have. And I do think there are a handful of people, I think you might be one of them that just has an inner constitution that, you know, is just a really lucky one. My son is one of them too. You know, he has this disability, and I swear to God, I've never seen a kid, you know, just kind of bounce back, you know, like he's here to be humbled. You know, it's not, it's not, you know, his constitution is just built that way. But I think for the vast majority of people, we're dealing with imposter syndrome. We're dealing with self worth issues. And oftentimes people say, Well, I don't have a worthiness issue because they're they have a great life, they have a great family, they have a great business. They and they can't they like themselves. They can't really relate to feeling a worthiness issue. But when you dial down and really talk to them about, you know, what are their fears, or what's getting in their way, or what's happening, it all comes back to this question of, you know, am I enough and trying to prove themselves and whatnot. And so one of my taglines is, I say, you know, stop, it's time to stop proving your worth and start owning your worth. Because your worth is there. It's always there. Your your validity is always there. The only thing that happened is you turned your gaze away from it. You started looking for it outside of yourself and instead of inside of yourself, and so it's, it's a harder question to answer, because it's, it's an evolution. It's not, you know, well, I just need to say, you know, 10 affirmations every day, and then I'm going to wake up more confident the next day, right? It has to do with acknowledging and being able to catch those if I was going to use Positive Intelligence language, those saboteurs that you know, for example, the hyper achiever Salvatore that wants to tell you that you're worth you're only as worthy as your last achievement. You know it's being able to catch that and being able to say, Wait a minute. Let me once again, sit you down and go back into who I am at the core of me, what is my essence and and aligning with the truth of who we are, which is we are not our body, we are not our mind, we we're much, much more than that. So there's a lot of different practices that we go, that I go through with people, but I do think that part of it is acknowledging that we're all somewhere along the same journey. And so much of the time it's just almost all the time, it's like one ego is talking to another ego. I'm I'm telling you, whatever I'm telling you. From my ego, you're telling me what you're telling me from your ego, very rarely are people actually, truly talking from their hearts. Part of developing confidence, I think, is an ability to align with your authentic self, where you're not putting yourself. Below anybody else. You're not putting yourself above anybody else. You're just aligning with what is real for you and putting yourself out there in that way and getting comfortable with that. And we can make decisions from that place. We feel more confident about our decisions. We never regret a decision that happened truly intuitively, right,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:21 right? Well, you've, you've worked with a lot of clients, and I've had some successes. I'd love to hear maybe a success story where you really made a difference, or you helped someone make their own difference.   Abby Havermann ** 1:00:39 Yeah. I mean, I think that, let's see, you know, I mean, there's, there's a lot of different ways I could, I could go with that. You know, sometimes what happens when people can have a shift is everything changes. So I had a client who was going she almost didn't come to our call because she was just covered in shame about something that was happening in her business. And we were able to work on it, not only in that introductory call, but throughout the ensuing year where everything changed for her business. So when I used to ask her, you know, listen, what, what do you what do you want? What is it? Well, I want to be the best. Well, what does that mean? I want to be the best, right? I want to be the best. You know. Again, that goes back to this dysregulated nervous system, that's right, if I'm best, then I'll feel better. Then I'll feel better, right? And after a course of working together and working with her team and really getting her to get in touch with the incredible work that her company does from a real perspective, not where she's just telling herself it or patting herself on the back, but really beginning to see what they're doing, and a close attention to her, watching her inner world. She came up with the most beautiful business statement that I think I had ever heard, and couldn't even really remember the time, where she said, Yeah, I wanted to be the best. It wasn't about that, you know? It's about, I want to make a difference. This is what our team is doing. This is what I'm about in the world. This is what's important to me. And as a result, you know, made some incredible changes, money, you know, pouring in and working a lot on that automatic fear that you know financial ruin is on the other side of the wall, which is just a completely internal fear, and being able to release that so that you release the energetic field around you that's holding those circumstances in place, and having a

Send us a textWhat if you could revisit a beloved place from your past and experience it anew through the eyes of your child? That's exactly what we did on our recent journey to Boston and Vermont, retracing the steps of a trip we took years ago. Join us as we relive the magic of Boston's culinary scene, indulging in fresh lobster rolls and clam chowder at the iconic James Hook. Our adventure brings history to life at the Boston Tea Party Museum, where we sampled the very teas tossed into the Boston Harbor in 1773, merging flavors and stories in a way only New England can offer.Our journey continues as we explore the vibrant streets of Boston's North End and the lively atmosphere of Quincy Market. We share the joy of discovering treasures at the Vermont Country Store, with its blend of nostalgia and unique finds. Vermont's breathtaking landscapes provide the perfect backdrop for a picnic of cheddar biscuits before we marvel at the artistry of hand-blown glass at Simon Pearce. A stay at the cozy Trapp Lodge treats us to venison chili and home-brewed beer, while a local coffee house offers a hearty breakfast that warms the soul.As our adventure wraps up, we savor unexpected moments like a bear encounter at a mountain resort and a celebration meal of schnitzel with lingonberry sauce for our daughter's graduation. Each day brings new tastes and tales, from hiking to a chapel with stunning views to exploring the farm-to-table movement with fresh maple syrup. Traveling through New England with family not only reignites cherished memories but also creates new ones, all flavored with the region's rich history and culinary delights. Listen in as we share the laughter, the flavors, and the unforgettable experiences that made this trip so special.---✍️ Episode ReferencesJames Hook & Co.[https://www.jameshooklobster.com/](https://www.jameshooklobster.com/)Boston Tea Party Ships & Museum[https://www.bostonteapartyship.com/](https://www.bostonteapartyship.com/)Simon Pearce[https://www.simonpearce.com/](https://www.simonpearce.com/)Trapp Family Lodge[https://www.trappfamily.com/](https://www.trappfamily.com/)Salumeria Italiana[https://www.salumeriaitaliana.com/](https://www.salumeriaitaliana.com/)Regina Pizzeria[https://www.pizzeriaregina.com/](https://www.pizzeriaregina.com/)Vermont Country Store[https://www.vermontcountrystore.com/](https://www.vermontcountrystore.com/)Modern Pastry Shop[https://modernpastry.com/](https://modernpastry.com/)Support the show

Over the lifetime of Unstoppable Mindset, I have met many of our guests on LinkedIn. My guest this time, Wallace Pond, is by far one of the most fascinating and engaging people I have had the honor to talk with. Dr. Pond was born into a military family based at the time in Alabama. I do tease him about his not having an Alabama accent and he acknowledges that living on a military base is largely why he does not naturally possess a Southern way of speech. Dr. Pond has lived, worked, and studied in North America, Latin America, the Caribbean, Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. He has served as a teacher, a professor and within the corporate world he has held a number of positions including several within the C Suite arena. We get to explore his life journey including learning of a mental health crisis that led him to a career change a few years ago. During my time with Wallace, we talk about many subjects including God and religion, Leadership and what makes a good and real leader. Wallace talks about diversity and how we are focusing so much on tribal issues within our culture that we are losing the art of conversation. Dr. Pond will tell us about his project, the Transformation Collaborative which is an effort to promote real change in how we can become better versions of ourselves. I leave it to Wallace to explain. At the end of our podcast episode Wallace and I agreed to record a second episode in the near future. I'd love your thoughts about what you hear on this episode. Any questions you want me to ask Dr. Pond next time? Please pass them on. About the Guest: Dr. Pond, founder, IdeaPathway, LLC, the Transformation Collaborative™, and Life Worth Living, LLC, has been a missiondriven educator and leader for over 30 years. For the last 20 years, Wallace has been a senior leader in higher education, holding both campus and system level positions overseeing single and large, multi-campus and online institutions of higher education in the US and internationally. He has served as chancellor, president, COO, CEO, CAO (Chief Academic Officer), and board member, bringing exceptional value as a strategic-servant leader through extensive experience and acumen in strategic planning, transformational change, change management, crisis management/turn around, organizational design and development, P&L, human capital development, innovation, new programs, and deep operational expertise among other areas of impact. He has recently added psychotherapy to his practice and provides counseling services as an LPCC under supervision. You can see his counselor profile here. His many thought leadership articles are available at www.WallacekPond.com. Wallace began his career as a high school teacher and adjunct professor and spent six years in the elementary and secondary classroom working primarily with at-risk youth. He was also a public-school administrator and spent another six years as a full-time professor and administrator in the not-for-profit higher education sector, working in both on campus and online education, bringing education to underserved students. Additionally, Wallace has over 15-years of executive, private sector experience, creating a unique and powerful combination of mission-driven and business focused leadership and insights. Ways to connect with Wallace: www.wallacekpond.com www.transformationcollaborative.net https://www.linkedin.com/in/wallace-pond-47b05512/ https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Real-World-Executive-Turbulent/dp/B08C49FQ6Q/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1UIJFVM71G3RZ&keywords=leadership+in+the+real+world&qid=1704824712&s=books&sprefix=leadership+in+the+real+worl%2Cstripbooks%2C159&sr=1-1 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi and welcome to unstoppable mindset. Welcome wherever you happen to be. I really am glad you're here with us. I'm Mike hingson, your host today. Our guest is Wallace Pond, a man of many talents. He's been very much involved in helping people and transforming he's got bachelor's, master's and PhDs all, well, I won't say all over the place, but, but he has a number of degrees. Yeah, we, we won't give them all away. I'll let you do that. And he's also now even becoming involved in more things relating to psychotherapy. So I'll have to have him talk to my cat and see if we can do something. Yeah, never, never sure that works. Is, does it? Wallace, but anyway, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here.   Wallace Pond ** 02:08 Well, thank you so much, Mike. It's just a pleasure to be to be on the show with you. I appreciate what you got to be previously, and really appreciate also kind of the work that you do and what you've accomplished, and I think you have a really healthy and helpful perspective on a number of things, in particular diversity, but I think need to be that more people need to hear so I appreciate the opportunity to be with you well. Thank   Michael Hingson ** 02:37 you. I appreciate that, and would love to work with you any way that we can. Why don't we start on your podcast episode by you telling us kind of maybe a little bit about the early Wallace growing up and all that sort of stuff.   Wallace Pond ** 02:51 Yeah. So I was born in the deep south in the early 1960s very different time. My father was in the Air Force, so even though we were in Alabama, I was born into a desegregated military environment. This the in Montgomery, Alabama, the city was not desegregated. There were still separate bathrooms and water fountains for, quote, colored people, yeah, but on the Air Force Base, it was at least as desegregated as as the military could be at that time. But my folks and my family, both from Idaho, of all places, when my son was born there, about 30 years ago. He was the fifth generation from Idaho. My folks went back to Idaho when I was about, Gosh, nine years old.   Michael Hingson ** 03:49 So was it the military, though that influenced you not to have an Alabama accent?   Wallace Pond ** 03:54 Yeah. Probably parent, parents and military both. Okay, yeah, yeah. So my little sister and I, we were in Alabama and Georgia, Maryland before we went back to Idaho. But yeah, we sort of never got that southern accent, although given an opportunity, I can slip into it, and I certainly recognize it, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 04:17 well, and I love to use the words y'all and all y'all. And I know the difference between the two, which a lot of people don't, but it's   Wallace Pond ** 04:25 a third. There's a third, which is the plural possessive, all, y'all. Oh, all, y'all, that's right, yeah, yeah, which, which, not everybody, which, you don't hear all the time. But no, you're in the South. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 04:37 I love language. Anyway, so you were saying so, yeah.   Wallace Pond ** 04:44 So moved out to Idaho, back to Idaho. That's where my folks were from. And kind of feel like I, you know, some really formative years, nine to probably 18 or so in Idaho, and just had. You know, the the great pleasure over both when I was a child, living with my parents, and then also once I was independent, out of the home. Probably lived in. I could, I could, you know, calculate it, but lived in probably a dozen states, half a dozen countries. Uh, visited 39 or 40 countries. So just one of those people, you know, some folks, one model is to kind of grow up somewhere and be from there, and that's, you know, kind of how you identify. And then there's other folks, like I who just, you know, it's a very different perspective, and it's, you know, a lot of moves, a lot of different experiences, I think my wife and I, we've been married 34 years, and we stopped moving quite so much in the last, oh, probably 15 but I think we've moved 11 times. And in fact, the last kind of big adventure was we spent a couple years over the United Arab Emirates. I was a CEO running a company over there, as well as a college president, at the same time doing both in Abu Dhabi, and that kind of a long arc where I am now. But there was through that. There was there was kind of like K 12 experience, university experience, corporate experience, so pretty kind of broad based, you know, personal and professional background. As you said, I more recently got into into the field of psychotherapy as an actual therapist. That was kind of an interesting career shift, but, but really timely and probably one of the most congruent decisions I've ever made in my life, in terms of, you know, making a life decision that turned out to align with what I wanted to be true and what was making sense for me at The time. So kind of a long arc, but here we are. Here   Michael Hingson ** 07:03 we are. Where did you? Where did you go to college? Yeah, so   Wallace Pond ** 07:07 initially, University of Utah, okay, and I, and I pursued a degree in Spanish and Hispanic literature, which also kind of was not purposeful, it wasn't part of a plan, but it really had a significant impact on some of the things I did in my life, and certainly some of the cultural experiences I had as a student, I lived in Spain and Mexico as well, and then as a professional and as an adult, I also lived in Puerto Rico for three years. So Spanish and Spanish culture kind of a big part, at least earlier in my career, up through probably, I think I was, I left Puerto Rico in 2013 after three years there. So that was, that was kind of the undergraduate. And then, as you mentioned, I have, I have multiple I have three different graduate degrees, two two masters and a PhD in the one at Boston University that was back in the 90s, and then a PhD in education. And then I went back to school for the fourth time, about, Gosh, three or four years ago, when I decided I wanted to go into the helping professions again and be a counselor, and so that was a master's in clinical mental health. And I've been practicing. I've been seeing clients for about three years. I've been I've been seeing clients post grad, in both private practice and in a community health setting. Now for geez, I graduated in July of last year, so I probably, oh, maybe little over 1200 1300 hours of counseling at this point. So that's the educational story. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 09:05 I have to ask, since we talked about language and you spend some time at Boston University, yeah, and so on, did you ever learn to talk Bostonian?   Wallace Pond ** 09:16 So kind of like my experience in the south, you can do it, yeah, I can slip into it. I actually kind of enjoy it. I yeah, I do too, you know. But no, it's not something that I that I ever, ever adopted for myself.   Michael Hingson ** 09:33 I lived in Windsor mass for three years, so I spent some time in the Boston area,   Wallace Pond ** 09:40 great town, you know, Boston. I did a lot of that work, actually overseas, in an overseas program in Germany, of all places. So it's kind of a long, winding road. I've   Michael Hingson ** 09:52 heard that one of my favorite restaurants in Boston closed around or just before the time of the pandemic, Durkin park at uh. And near Fennell Hall, yeah, Quincy Market, I heard that Durgan closed, yeah?   Wallace Pond ** 10:06 And, well, and that was not unique to them. I mean, yeah, the pandemic was pretty rough on restaurants, and a substantial number all over the country didn't, didn't make it through that? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 10:20 yeah. It's kind of sad. Long before the pandemic, the Carnegie Deli in New York closed, which was one of my favorites, and I knew the owner, but I think, yeah, and I don't even think they can, I don't even think they mail order anymore. I   Wallace Pond ** 10:36 don't know, but I do. I do remember, I do. I'm have some experience with the Carnegie Deli, because that's where I was introduced to pastrami. No better place, yes. And I didn't know I was a pastrami fan until then,   Michael Hingson ** 10:55 and the sandwiches were so small, yeah?   Wallace Pond ** 10:56 Well, right, yeah, it was a workout, like doing curls, lifting the sandwich. Yeah, I unfortunately, one of the things that happened being introduced to pastrami at the Carnegie Deli was I became kind of a pastrami snob. And so you know that my first introduction was as good as it gets. So yeah, it's hard for me to for pastrami to match up since then. Oh, gosh, that was a while ago.   Michael Hingson ** 11:23 Oh, it is. It's really hard. I'm still spoiled by the first Caesar salad I ever had. When my wife and I got married, we spent part of our time in Palm Springs, and then we went and spent the rest of our honeymoon in Phoenix and went to a hotel and stayed at a hotel called the point Tapatio, which had a restaurant up on top of the mountain. On one side, you could see Phoenix. On the other side, you could see Scottsdale. And we ordered Caesar salads that they made at tableside. And back then, in 1982 it included the rig and everything else. And it's still the best Caesar salad I ever had.   Wallace Pond ** 11:57 Yeah. Well, most people alive today are young with, oh, I would say most people born since maybe 819, 80 or so. Have you know, there used to be raw egg and a lot of stuff. Yeah, I don't know if you remember Orange Julius. Oh, yes, yeah, they used to get a raw egg. Was one of the ingredients you could get beat up in a in a smoothie. Yeah, those days are, sure. Guy, oh,   Michael Hingson ** 12:23 the days. Well, Steven, so, so what did you I was going to say, what did you do after college? But that's really kind of hard, because there's a lot of, a lot of after colleges for you. But you said Spanish wasn't really part of the plan, but yet, that's what you you did for an undergraduate degree? How come? Yeah,   Wallace Pond ** 12:43 so this is kind of a funny thing to even admit, but a lot of me back up a step. So my father, he had some kind of intuition, some kind of insight. He really believed it would be helpful for me, maybe really in terms of life experience, maybe in terms of just a skill set to be bilingual. And even back in high school, he started like, I'd come home and he put like, a pamphlet on my bed about, you know, Spanish language, or Spanish class or something like that, you know. And when I got to the University of Utah, I thought, you know, a little bit based upon his, you know, you know, suggestions and support. I i took a few Spanish I remember taking, you know, Spanish 101, then I kind of like that Spanish 102, I was a communications major at the time, and to be honest, I still don't know what that means, Mike, but I was a communications major, and at that time, it was the single largest major on campus, and you could not get courses you sent. You could not register for communications courses, and there were people who were being forced to spend an extra year or more at the U just to get the courses they needed to graduate. And in the meantime, I had said, Well, I'll get a minor. And I thought, well, if I'm gonna get a minor, I probably need to be able to speak it. So I decided to do a study abroad in Spain. Went to school at the University of Seville, four days a week, four hours a day, immersed in Spanish and subjects being taught in Spanish. And by the time I got back, I had, I had earned so many credits in Spanish that there was a pretty quick path to a degree in Spanish and and I didn't have to worry about the problem of not getting courses in in communication, communications, yeah, yeah. So when I got back to the and I also got a bunch more credit by passing some tests, some clap tests, and ended up, you know, with a degree. Did another study in Mexico, ended up with a degree in Spanish. Mentioned Hispanic literature. It just it was the path of least resistance, and something that I really enjoyed. So that's how that happened. I mean, there truly was no plan.   Michael Hingson ** 15:12 Well, things work out, though may not have been part of the plan, but it certainly sounds like it worked out well for you, and it helped integrate into everything that followed, which is always a good thing. It absolutely did. Yeah, I know when I went to UC Irvine starting in the fall of 1968 I entered the year that they had their first graduating class. So the first graduation was for seniors. Was 69 but they also had graduate school, they had medical some medical schools and so on. And very quickly, the school had become known for science, and a lot of people wanted to go off and become doctors. So the year that I entered 1600 people enrolled in organic well or enrolled in biology, and they all wanted to go off and be doctors and all that. And the biosci people said, Okay, well, before you can really be serious about a bio sci major, you're going to have to take a year of organic chemistry   Wallace Pond ** 16:24 that that that that weeded a few folks out, didn't it? From the   Michael Hingson ** 16:29 beginning of my freshman year to the end of my sophomore year, the number of students in biology dropped from 1600 freshmen to 200 sophomores.   Wallace Pond ** 16:38 Yeah, yeah. That's a, I think, a typical experience with I took organic chemistry much later in life. It's another kind of part of my minding journey. But I took an entire pre med curriculum after I finished my PhD, just for pure Self edification. And you know, I was always troubled by the fact that I got through three degrees without really having a good science Corps. And so while I was working as a professor at a college, I ended up taking, well, all but one course of a pre med curriculum. And I remember exec, I remember organic chemistry, and I remember just kind of that, that moment, that realization, where you cannot fake this, no you will put in the time, or you will not get out. Well, I did that. I   Michael Hingson ** 17:29 got my master's degree, my bachelor's and master's in physics, so I did not take organic chemistry. But I know everybody was complaining about memorizing all the reactions and all that and and, you know, I respect it, but I'm glad I didn't have to take it.   Wallace Pond ** 17:44 Yeah, I enjoyed it, but it was also something that, you know, it, like I said, it's not something you can fake, no, it's a completely different animal than than inorganic chemistry. Fascinating, really fascinating, actually, yeah, but definitely requires some mental effort.   Michael Hingson ** 18:06 I enjoyed hearing people talk about it, and enjoyed listening to all of that, but it was different than what I enjoyed doing. And I loved physics, and was especially always interested in the philosophy of physics, the history and philosophy, and of course, one of the big debates about physics is, is it really a quantum and does God throw dice, or is it, is it in reality that there is really determinism and and that's a question that physics still hasn't answered yet. Some people think it has, but it hasn't yet well,   Wallace Pond ** 18:38 and the answer to that question has huge implications for psychology and free will, sure   Michael Hingson ** 18:42 it does all of that. Sure it does, sure, and I am sure that eventually it will all get realized. And you know, my belief is that there are basic laws of the universe and that there are laws that we have to obey to to really progress, but it's our choice. And I, and I am absolutely a firm believer in the fact that there is such a thing as free will and choice.   Wallace Pond ** 19:09 Yeah, and I, I it may be, it may be that we at some point come to some kind of melding of the two, whereby there is some level of free choice or agency, but that that's highly influenced by underlying physics principles of some sort. Correct? Exactly? Yeah, yeah. Ray Kurzweil, the   Michael Hingson ** 19:35 futurist and inventor and a man I worked for for a few years when he was developing the Kurzweil Reading Machine created a doc, or there is a documentary about him. And at the end, he said, you know, everybody keeps wondering if there is a God, and he said, there isn't yet, because we haven't invented it. And I do not buy into Ray's I don't buy into Ray's argument that I don't think that works. Yeah. Yeah, but it is interesting and but you're right, it all really does come down to in psychology, a question of free will, a question of so many different things, and I and eventually will understand it   Wallace Pond ** 20:13 well. And there's an in there other related concepts, you know, for example, the notion of growth mindset, which is a really interesting concept, Carol Dweck, out of Stanford, was the one who kind of popularized this. But the idea that growth mindset, as opposed to fixed mindset, suggests that our futures are malleable, that that our ability to to learn, to grow to achieve objectives is at some significant level determined by whether or not we believe that we can grow and change and progress through new talents and perspectives, etc, versus the extent to which we believe it's more fixed, and that those limits are kind of innate, and there's a there's a potential physics element to that as well. Having said that, I do believe in mostly it's just observation that it absolutely is possible to to grow dramatically, intellectually, spiritually, academically, I'm Trying to some other examples might be things like emotionally, that we are, you know, capable. That's why we have neocortical functions, right, as human rights, right, even separate from other mammals, we have parts of our brain that do stuff, right, you know, that are that are pretty amazing, and that allow for pretty intense evolution. And I don't mean evolution in the historical sense, although that has its own place. I mean as individuals, right? You know, the ability to kind of evolve in the context of our environment. So it we probably won't have a final answer any of that before you and I are gone. But it is a, it is a topic that I find fascinating. Oh,   Michael Hingson ** 22:30 I do too, and, and, of course, the the other part of the question is, you say we may not have an answer before we're gone. Will we really be gone or whatever? So there's, there's that too, right?   Wallace Pond ** 22:45 Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, as part of my own mental health journey, you know, I'm a counselor, but I'm also, you know, in our field, we have this, this, this concept of wounded healer. And, you know, I didn't, you know, just randomly pop up one day in, you know, going from being a corporate executive or a university president to being a psychotherapist, I had my own journey as well mental health journey, and I put myself certainly in that category of of wounded healer. But when we think about, you know, the human experience, right? And as we think about the kinds of things that, just either by chance or by purpose, end up being part of that journey, for me, being exposed to Buddh principles and Buddhist thoughts, Buddhist ideas was really critical in my own healing and the whole notion of impermanence and afterlife. The Buddh take on that, I think, is really compelling. And this idea that there is an afterlife in the sense that we are all comprised of elements and molecules and atoms that will continue on in multiple forms, and that we're comprised of atoms and molecules that have been around, you know, that belonged, that were part of someone in the Roman Empire and part of someone in Greek times, and part of someone on the Savannah, or some animal on the savannah millions of years ago. And although it may not be sort of a Christian notion of an integrated afterlife as some version of yourself, right? I find that the Buddhist perspective really compelling. This idea that you know, the energy, the mass, the mole, the atoms that comprise us do continue on. And there may, in fact, be some integrated version of. That, who knows, you know, my father passed away a few years ago, and and one of the ways that I have, one of the ways that I have grieved that, and one of the ways I have dealt with that loss, is I frequently talk to him, and every you know, and every now and then I'll ask him, you know, you know, I'll tell him, gosh, I wish he could let me know what happened like. So what is it? You know, where are you? Are you know, do you have consciousness? And you know, maybe some way, sometime he'll answer. But for me, right now, a big part of of of that healing in that, in that grieving has been to maintain that relationship with Him through conversation.   Michael Hingson ** 25:45 And should I believe absolutely, I think there's a lot to be said for for the merits of what you were just describing. And the issue, I think, is that, if we also go back to what really is God, you've got the Christians who have tried to shape God in the sense in their image, more than the other way around, and others have done that too, but, but the reality is what really is God, and I think God is the underlying principle for all of us, and I think that we're all part of that God. And so when your father died, or my wife passed away in the end of 2022 there they are still there. I love to tell people that I am absolutely certain that Karen monitors me, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it. So I have to behave, otherwise, I'm going to be in serious trouble.   Wallace Pond ** 26:45 Yeah, you know, there's an interesting I just, I'm just about to finish an absolutely profound book by an author, physician, philosopher. His name is Gabor Mate. He was a survivor of the Holocaust. He was a child of an infant. Actually, the book is called The Myth of normal, absolutely seminal, fabulous, fabulous book, just in general, but also resonates with me on my own mental health journey and as a counselor. But he makes reference in the book to to the actress as Ashley Judd and and a quote of hers, a phrase of hers, which is, I want to, I don't want to mess up the the quote. It is, surrendering to a god you don't believe in the idea that you know, you don't have to believe in a deity in any sort of, you know, codified religious, you know, institutional way to still surrender to, to, to a sense of, of, of a higher power, yeah. And I just, I, you know, I just really appreciated that quote from Ashley Judd, and I think it's really applicable, this idea that we don't have to be dogmatic. We don't have to be it's, you know, an ethical, institutional approach to surrender to a god we don't believe in. You know, that that we can surrender to something bigger, something beyond our own physical existence   Michael Hingson ** 28:24 well and in the Buddha oriented world, it is also, isn't even a matter of surrendering. It's a matter of believing you're a part of and being willing to progress and grow. And oh, I can't resist telling one of my favorite jokes, and I've not done it on here before, I used to listen to Hal Holbrook doing Mark Twain tonight. Oh, okay, we did a great imitation of Mark Twain. And I don't know if it was actually Mark Twain that said it, but I attribute it to Mark Twain. But I heard Hal Holbrook say it. He said, You know, when we die, we're going to go to heaven, and when we go to heaven, assuming we go to heaven, we're going to probably be up on a cloud, and we're going to have harp music in the background, and we're going to study, and the more we study, the more we progress, and the more we progress, the more we study. And we're just going to be up there. We're going to study and study and study and progress and progress and progress. And if that isn't hell, I don't know   Wallace Pond ** 29:15 what is that that sounds like a Mark Twain. It   Michael Hingson ** 29:17 does sound like a Mark Twain, and I would suspect that it really came from him somewhere. Oh, gosh, but, but, you know, the the reality is that I think we impose way too many limitations on God and our relationship with God, and it's and it doesn't help us to do it. And I, you know, I hear what Ashley Judd is saying, but again, I think it's not so much a surrender as it is recognizing you're a part of   Wallace Pond ** 29:48 Yeah. That makes sense to me too. Michael, so what   Michael Hingson ** 29:50 did you do when you graduated from college? Initially, I will, I'll tell you the first time, what did what kind of our career path did you go on to?   Wallace Pond ** 29:58 Yeah? So in me. Immediately, I just went to work as a as a school teacher in a in a school for at risk youth in Salt Lake City. I taught Spanish, but I also taught English and introductory algebra and earth science. And, you know, a very common kind of thing in in small schools, you're a generalist, unlike, you know, in large districts, where you kind of, you just teach English all day or whatever.   Michael Hingson ** 30:33 Yeah, I grew up in my teachers were generalists,   Wallace Pond ** 30:36 yeah, yeah. And we also had an intense Outdoor Program in that school. So it was really interesting. We did, you know, we did, you know, snow camping, and we did survival, you know, hikes in southern Utah, you know, just what you could carry on your back. And, you know, through the desert for days, in addition to the, you know, the school work, or the classroom work, which itself was also not very traditional. So, you know, for example, we the classes were a mix of ages. You know, I taught classes with, you know, 1213, year olds and 17 year olds in the same class. It was just, it was dependent upon, you know, academic inclination, desire to be in a big, you know, particular course, you know, in that school was actually pre K, 12, so, you know, just some amazing, amazing experiences for me and for the and for the students, you know, 30 plus years later, whatever it was, 3435 years later, I still remember, you know, I have this, this image, and it's just such a poignant, touching image, particularly when we think about at risk youth and at Risk teenagers, I think we don't always have a very charitable view of kids that don't fit in, and adolescents and teens, you know, that that oftentimes are considered to be, you know, kind of unrefined or self centered or whatever. And I had this image. I still see it. We the this, the school had had a downstairs and an upstairs. And I remember one of my students, he was 18 years old. And, you know, this is back in, gosh, the 80s, and he, would, you know, black leather. You know studs on the leather. You know Jack boots. You know wallet on a chain. You know the kids about, you know, six two and about 190 pounds, the kind of kid that would scare the hell out a lot of people just looking at him, you know, but I had this mental image of of him walking down the stairs, and he's holding the hand of a four year old, helping the four year old down the stairs. I even get a little emotional thinking about it, 35 years later, you know the kind of kid that is so misunderstood, the kind of kid that you know has struggled so much to fit in, the kind of kid who you know is just constantly been battling between, you know, authenticity and acceptance. And here he is, you know, going down the stairs, holding the hand of a four year old preschooler to help him get down the stairs. And I just can't imagine a more poignant vision, yeah, and, and that was a, you know, those kinds of things were common experiences for me in those first couple of years teaching in that environment after my undergraduate work, I   Michael Hingson ** 34:01 spent a number of years living in and around well, I lived in New Jersey and worked in New York, but even before living there, company I worked for allowed me to travel to sell because we were being so successful, we couldn't just do it all from the phone in Southern California. So I stayed at a hotel, oftentimes in the middle of New York, near Times Square. And when I went out at night, there were people, are you? Do you remember the old the guardian angels?   Wallace Pond ** 34:34 Oh yeah. So   Michael Hingson ** 34:36 this guy would come up to me and he said, I'm with the guardian angels. He said, I just want to walk with you, just to make sure you stay safe. And safe. And I said, you know, you don't really need to. I'm really good. We said, we're going to anyway. And when what I've always realized, though, and he was good company, he was great. But what I also realized is that, in general, if you treat people well and. So if you don't act like a jerk, then they're going to, most likely treat you well as as well. And yeah, I never did have a problem with anyone in New York. I had a couple people who would come up to me and say, Does your dog bite? Because I always had my guide dog right, right? And I never knew why they asked. And so my response was, Well, you know, he's not trained to do that, but I wouldn't want to be the person to try to find out. And actually, the reason I use that answer was right. My first guide dog was a golden retriever, and one day we were at UC Irvine on campus, and some students would bring their dogs to college, and then then just let them roam. And a bunch of them organized a pack, and they actually came after me and my guy dog, Squire, who was this wonderful, loving golden retriever, right? And so we were walking, and these dogs were coming up on us from the rear, and Squire jerked away from me. I still had his leash, but he jerked away. So I lost grip on the harness. He turned around and crouched down and growled at these dogs. I've never heard him do that. Oh, wow. And they all just stopped and backed up and somebody else was watching. And he told me later, they just walked away with their tails between their legs, wow. Yeah, and you know, so, like I said, it's all about love, but I think it goes both ways. That with a dog, I wouldn't want to be the person to try to find out whether if they attacked me, my dog would bite. But I think also it's just as true with people. I'm not quite as sure today with all the drug stuff going on, but you know, the reality is, I think for the most part, people really are going to treat you well if you treat them well. Yeah,   Wallace Pond ** 36:47 I don't, I don't challenge that. Michael, I but what I would say is, I think one of the, one of the genuine sort of societal problems, manifestations, let's call it, of the kind of polarization and tribalism that's becoming more and more common. Yeah, is, you know, the deeper that people turn into their own tribe, right? You know, the the more that people insulate themselves from other people that you know don't share their views or their background or their culture. I think one of the real, potentially profound dangers of this tribalized tribalism, and whether it's, whether it's in social media or, you know, where we congregate, you know, face to face, and the deep polarization, not just you know you're wrong, but you're wrong and you're bad, is, is, I think, one of the things that we're really in danger of through that tribalism and isolation is that I think we are broadly use, losing the capacity to navigate conversations, relationships, conflict, agreed with, with people that aren't Like us, right? And I think that's potentially dangerous.   Michael Hingson ** 38:22 I think it's absolutely dangerous, because   Wallace Pond ** 38:25 that skill, that ability to survive to in the face of someone who has very different beliefs, and to get through that without unhealthy conflict, to get through that without casting, you know, aspersions, to get through that without personal attacks, I think is is critical to kind of a functioning society, because we are always going to have diverse perspectives, diverse religions, diverse cultures, diverse political perspectives. That's always going to be true. So the extent to which we are able to navigate that in a productive way is really critical, and I fear that we are because we turn towards what we know with tribalism that we're just losing the opportunity to engage other people who may be quite different than we are, and do that successfully, whereas The you know, turning inward to the tribe actually exacerbates? Well,   Michael Hingson ** 39:44 yeah, there's a lot of truth to that. I guess I'm a little bit of an oddity, even in, I think, among some blind people in that having never seen to me, somebody with a. Skin color is simply a concept, and the it doesn't matter to me about about color, and I work very hard to make sure that I continue with that kind of attitude, because it doesn't really matter to me what a person's skin color is and have never seen it. Haven't ever seen different skin colors. And frankly, I know I can say with certainty I don't care. Now, not everybody necessarily knows me well enough to believe that, but it is still true, because having never seen it. You know intellectually, I know what red is, I know what blue is. I know what Black is. I know what white is, and we can talk about it in terms of wavelength of light too. But you know it's it's still not something that becomes an issue for me. And it amazes me when I hear people talking about and demonstrating prejudice about different skin colors and so on, because it's just not something that really is an issue for me, and I'm always amazed by it. Yeah,   Wallace Pond ** 41:08 it's interesting point you make. I mean, just engaging the life, just engaging life in general, in the absence of visual stimuli, you obviously are have honed very finely other senses. But this idea, you know, and in our culture, in in Western and particularly American culture, it is profoundly visual,   Michael Hingson ** 41:36 yeah, oh, it is, Oh, absolutely, you know. And look, I know blind people who are very prejudiced, and maybe some of them never saw but they've learned it. Fortunately, I'm blessed that I refuse to learn that concept.   Wallace Pond ** 41:50 That's interesting thought, isn't it? You know, I know that we have learned to be incredibly judgmental based upon visual stimuli, right? Is someone short? Are they tall? Do they have acne? You know, are they overweight? What clothes are they wearing? You know, they have the right shoes. And you may be able to determine some of that through other senses at some point, but you would never initially engage someone based upon that perspective, because you wouldn't have it. Mm, hmm. So a very interesting thought, you know, and I,   Michael Hingson ** 42:33 I know my wife and and I also believe my wife was, although she was cited, never really had that kind of prejudice, because she grew up with around people of different skin colors and different races and so on. But we would be talking about sometimes political debates, and she would say, well, so and so knows about that, because he's black. And I would sit there and go, huh? Because I if there was, you know, I couldn't tell that they were black, you know. And it amazed me, and it didn't change my opinion at all. Now, the fact that he was a politician, that's a different prejudice, but that's another story, right? But, but, you know, they're fun to pick on, but, but, you know, the bottom line is that that we've really got to get somehow over some of these things. And I agree with you that the art of conversation, the ability to converse, the ability to really interact with other people, is being lost because of so many things, and that is so unfortunate. Yeah,   Wallace Pond ** 43:38 and I don't want to be Pollyannaish, I mean, or oversimplified a situation. I mean, like I said, I was born in Montgomery, Alabama in the 1960s and there was no need for social media, for people to make judgments, to isolate, you know, to to, I mean, it was legislated. It was it was policy. I mentioned, you know, the colored water fountains and bathrooms. So this is not new. It's, you know, that kind of thing was, has existed in many, many contexts. I think, I think what's qualitatively different today a couple things. One is the existence that the medium, you know, mass media and social media, have a kind of power that I that didn't exist before a platform and an anonymity. You know, you can, you can say things and do things today that wouldn't have been acceptable because you would have been accountable, yeah, in the past, right? It was attached to you individually. So I think that's, that's one change. I think another change is whether we call it, you know, civility, or whether we call it norms, you know, I'm. I'm, you know, I'll be 60 next year. So, you know, I've been around for a little while, but not that long, compared to some people, but in terms of norms, just in the last call it 510, years, maybe even less than 10. I've been just stunned, frankly, by the things that it's now kind of okay to say and do. Yeah, you know that that we just sort of blown through the guard rails? You know that I think, used to kind of exist. It wasn't that you couldn't think it. It wasn't that it didn't exist. It was that there were some sort of norms about what it was sort of okay or acceptable to say or do, kind of in a in a civil society. And I think we've really blown through those guardrails. Social media has helped that politics.   Michael Hingson ** 45:54 What's one example of that?   Wallace Pond ** 45:59 Yeah, so something that comes to mind is, you know, people flaming other people online and social media, right? Personal attacks, yeah, particularly when people are vulnerable. You know, if you're face to face, or if you're in a, you know, a group that's co located with other people if you are on the phone, even, right? It was much, much harder, yeah, to launch those sort of personal, corrosive attacks on people than it is now. You know, I think in politics, you know, there are politicians now who say things, oh yeah, that you couldn't say and survive as a politician,   Michael Hingson ** 46:51 and still shouldn't, but do, yeah,   Wallace Pond ** 46:55 even 10 years ago, let alone 2030 Yeah, it's not that politicians didn't think it, or weren't capable, you know, of it. It's just, you know, I think of like criticism of families, of of war heroes, yeah, you know. Or just weird stuff, like, when did that become? Okay? Yeah?   Michael Hingson ** 47:18 Oh, I hear you. And social media has certainly not helped the process. No,   Wallace Pond ** 47:24 I think what it's done is it's anonymized, least in your mind, if not literally,   Michael Hingson ** 47:30 yeah, which is so scary. I hope we grow up and learn, but you know, we'll see. So what you taught for a while, then what did you go do?   Wallace Pond ** 47:43 Yeah, so again, I never really had a plan. And I know for some people, plans are helpful, important. They provide security. I truly, Michael, never had a quote plan for anything that happened in my life. You know, I've done everything from Teach bilingual kindergarten to run large corporations domestically and internationally, and I've just never had a plan. I've taken advantage of opportunities, and I've kind of pursued things that felt exciting or right, but I I've never really had a plan. So, you know, after my initial teaching experience, I ended up marrying someone who said, Look, I'm going to go work in Germany. I have a job over there. And if you want to come, you can come. If you're not, I'm leaving. So we ended up getting married and going over there together, and we're over there for a few years working for the Department of Defense and Education roles. And then came back to the US, did some more K 12 work, then went full time into higher education, as a as a professor, teaching people to be teachers, as well as Spanish and linguistics. Then moved into the corporate world for a while, came back into higher education, did some senior roles, including President, CEO at a few different institutions of higher education, some in the US, some abroad, and been in the C suite several times in corporate settings, Chief Operating Officer, Chief Executive Officer, the last kind of formal thing I did, working for someone else and or working for a board, I guess I would say, was in the Middle East, United Arab Emirates, and fascinating, wonderful experience. Just so glad I did it. Yeah, for. A cultural perspective, from a growth perspective, the hardest job ever done as a CEO. Never experienced quite that combination of challenges as a CEO, but just a fabulous experience in my wife and younger daughter, who's now off away at college. They lived there in the winter and were able to escape in the summer. I was not, you know, 120 degrees in 85% humidity. Yeah, yeah. Winter's stunning, beautiful, but summer is really hard, yeah. And they would come back to the mountains, you know, Colorado in the summer. But, and something's really interesting to happen when I came back from that. You know, this is kind of interesting. It helps explain, sort of, how did I go from that to working as a psychotherapist, and I still do consulting work and support organizations with transformational change and leadership and things like that. But So how does one go from the CEO of a of a company in Abu Dhabi and the president of a college system to going back to school for the fourth time and becoming a mental health counselor? And the short version to that is when I got back from the UAE, I asked myself a very different question for the first time than I would have in the past. So in the past, the question would have been something to the effect of, you know, what's the next job? And I was in a position to have some time off and kind of decompress. And I didn't ask that question. I asked a very, very different question, which was, what do I want to be true in my life? And I had some support with a counselor for that question, and kind of how I kind of fleshed the answer out and and when I was when I had come up with the answer of what I want to be true in my life, it became very clear that I could not do what I'd always been doing and achieve what I wanted to be true in my life, Those didn't align anymore, and so I had to think very differently about what I was going to do going forward. And that was not so ironically, the same time, but I began to really, really experience some pretty intense mental health challenges, which I had never experienced before. I mean, I had never even really experienced anxiety before like that. I I was my experience was so different for so long, 50 plus years. But when it changed, it point. It changed pretty rapidly and pretty dramatically, and I found myself in a situation where mental health and mental health challenges were now, were kind of Central, and I really had to figure some stuff out. And so that happened at the same time I was kind of pursuing that question of what I want to be different in my life, or two in my life. And what came out of that, in addition to my own kind of healing journey, was this idea that one of the ways that I could achieve, one of the things that I wanted to be true in my life, was to be in the helping professions and to and to leverage my own mental health journey to help others, to be, as I mentioned earlier on, the call A wounded healer, which, by the way, is the case for a lot of counselors. A lot of therapists are wounded healers. And so that's how I kind of got to the place of going back to school and being a counselor, and how that decision had kind of the most congruence, the most alignment of probably any life decision I've ever made, personal or professional, in terms of a decision that supported what I wanted to be true. And that started, gosh, a little over three years ago, is when I went back to school, and now, as I mentioned, I've been seeing clients for, gosh, since December 21 still as a student. And then now I have a private practice. I also work for a community health operation and agency, and I made that choice because I want I didn't want to be in a situation where a client was that could ever I don't want to be in a situation where someone couldn't see me because they couldn't pay and so that's what community health is. It is a. Um, it is a very different environment than private practice. I do both. It is people, you know, court mandated, lot of alcohol and drug substance abuse issues, domestic violence, really, really intense challenges. And I love the work. Sometimes it's overwhelming, but it allows me to really contribute in the ways I've wanted to contribute to people who really desperately need it and may not have the means to pursue that otherwise.   Michael Hingson ** 55:37 Well, you certainly set your your mind and your goals on a on a lofty, although I don't think an impossible task, but given everything that you've done, it's probably reasonable to say you're going to, going to do a pretty good job of helping to to accomplish some of that, or at least make the world better because of it. And you know that's that's hard to argue with. I'm really impressed, and look forward to seeing how the progress goes. Tell me about the transformation collaborative you founded that you also have a couple of LLCs that you've created along the way. Yeah. So the transformation   Wallace Pond ** 56:16 collaborative that was also in that same period of time where I had asked that question, what do I want to be true in my life, versus just what's the next job? And it was a really interesting process. It was about nine months, 12 months, kind of a rotating group of people just kind of brainstorming, noodling on, you know, if we were going to build a consultancy from scratch based on what we know as professionals, based upon our experience, you know, engaging with consultants as as consumers of consultancy, what would it look like? And we came up with it was kind of two, it turned out, you know, through that process, the sort of two driving elements came out of that. One was, we probably have to reinvent the consultancy itself. Because one of the things that kept coming up in the in that brainstorming conversation stuff, was that, you know, the traditional, particularly, you know, the big consultancies, that traditional model is just woefully inadequate. Much of the time. It's overpriced, you know, it's it's superficial, it's on the outside. I won't go into details about all the things that are broken with it, but, but basically, you know what happens is an agency, you know, has a couple of meetings, you know, they put together a report, they throw it over the wall, they have a celebration dinner, they go on to the next client. You know, there's no sense of accountability. There's no role in execution. I'm not talking ever, just broadly. That's yeah, so we the first thing we decide is, you know, what, if we're going to do this, we're not going to do it that way. In fact, we refer to ourselves as embedded partners. We don't call ourselves consultants. Our goal is to, really, you know, to play a role in getting the client from A to B, you know, including actually providing labor, bandwidth, accountability, execution. So that's the first thing that was very different, and also different in terms of how we operate. I told you previously, before we were on the air, you know, we don't have non disclosure agreements with our partners. We don't have, you know, non competes. It's very different. We don't skim out the top, we don't take commissions, but none of that stuff. You know, it's a very different model. The second thing that we determined as part of that process was, you know, if we're going to bring, really bring value, and we're going to be doing what we want to do, you know, we want congruence between what we're doing what we want to do? It really can't be about incremental stuff. It can't be transactional. It can't be, you know, help with a computer program, or, you know, help with a compliance issue. There are lots of folks that do that, lots of agencies that do that. They do it really well, but if we were going to be embedded partners, and if we were going to be doing what we wanted to do, it had to be transformational. It had to be supporting organizations to reinvent themselves for the world they're in, not the one they were founded in. And so those two things came out of that process, and that's what the transformation collaborative. Transformation collaborative is. There's two main things we do. One is supporting organizations through some version of reinvention, transformation, innovation, and the other is leadership. You know, we. We take, we are pretty kind of harsh in our assessment of what we view as leadership deficiencies, even leadership crisis in many organizations today. And so we've developed a model for kind of the competencies and traits that we believe are required for leaders to be effective today, and more importantly, we've developed a program to support that, and we don't call it leadership development, because we feel like that's also not what this is. That's a buzzword. It's a buzzword, and I think it's also a little bit even tainted, because so much leadership development is about the wrong stuff. We refer to it as leadership discovery. And the way the program operates is we support leaders in discovering themselves, as people, as leaders, as identifying elements of of that skill set and traits that they can gravitate towards and really develop or not develop, but can really leverage. Let's use that word to be more effective. And you know, just give you just a really quick example. You know, where of the mind that leadership is rarely, rarely anymore about technical skills. It's rarely about, you know, a leader's own labor, all the stuff that's been traditional leadership stuff is just price of entry. Now, you know, if you aren't, you know, skilled with PNL, if you, you know, can't work well with a board, if you don't have basic management skills, then that's a very different problem. And you know, we see kind of the primary role of leaders today, in addition to facilitating change and transformation, is human capital. The idea being that everything else is a commodity financing, technology, you name it. That's all has a very short shelf life, shelf life, but as a leader, if you can develop powerful, powerful human capital in your organization, that's not a commodity, that's a deep competitive advantage, and it's about ensuring that Your organization is successful, because you make other people successful, yeah, not because you are an individual rock star with your technical skills or business savvy   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:48 interesting. One of the things that I used to do when I managed and led sales teams and people in companies is I always would say to them, you know, I hired you because I know you can do the job, but at least you sold me on the fact that you can do the job. Some people did a better job of selling and didn't necessarily be as successful as I would have liked, but that's okay, but, but my job isn't to boss you around. My job is to work with you to figure out how I can add value to make you more successful. And the people who got that and who were willing to work on that with me were successful, and we figured out what each other's skills were, and sometimes I taught them things that they didn't know. And went both ways, but we worked together and they were more successful. It's all about collaboration. Yeah,   Wallace Pond ** 1:03:41 it's collaboration. And, you know, in a big element, and the collaboration is part of that, in our view, in our view, just at the transmission collaborative, a big chunk of that human capital piece. It's not just, it's not just leveraging labor. In fact, the last thing, right, that's the last thing it is. What it's about is in you know, in fact, we, we like eschew terms like employees, labor, workforce, workers, because we feel like that commoditizes The people who can potentially bring value in the organization. Yeah, it's our belief that if leaders can engage the people in their organization as human beings, if they see the workforce as humanity, and that's and that's, you know, as simple as that is, you will not hear leadership development organizations say that. We'll say it that way, no. But if leaders can see people in their organization as humanity and can address. As such, and can see them as human beings who don't stop being human at the office door. It's not easy. It's hard to put on a spreadsheet. It's a long term proposition, but if an organization truly wants to be sustainable, if they truly want to outgrow or grow at a rate greater than the competition, it is not going to come from commodities like their next technology or even their access to capital. It's going to be do they have, do they have people in the organization that are fully engaged, that are committed to the organization because they feel valued and taken care of. That's, you know, again, it sounds very simple. That's not language you typically hear in a conversation like this, no,   Michael Hingson ** 1:05:59 and it's not necessarily easy to make happen, but if you do it and you learn how to do it, the more you do it, the easier it becomes. You know, I have heard many people say that they really love their job to the point where it's not a job anymore. It says it's a labor of love. It is what they love to do. And I think as a leader, part of my responsibility is to help people explore that opportunity with whatever they're doing, and the ones who truly discover that they love what they do will will do the very kinds of things that you're talking about.   Wallace Pond ** 1:06:41 Yeah, and you know, one of the things that kind of is frustrating to us, if not even confusing to us at the transformation collaborative, is the extent to which, I mean, again, sometimes we take kind of a harsh position, but the extent to which people should kind of know better are, are, you know, either just doing the wrong thing or clueless, yeah, you know. And one of the big organizations, one of the big consultancies that we still have a lot of faith in, is Gallup, and that's because they're, you know, they have such massive data sets, and they really get it in terms of the people piece. They really, really get it in terms of, you know, the human piece. And, you know, employee engagement detachment continues to decline, you know, from four years ago, they continue. The data is just in for 2023 you know, and they continue to feel lower levels of satisfaction and less connection to mission and purpose. And as a result, they are more and more disengaged. And that's just profoundly expensive to organizations, yeah, to have these huge payrolls of people that are disengaged and and they don't get it. And yeah, get it, yeah, and the data is there, right? And the and folks are are communicating what's not working for them. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 1:08:23 it's pretty straightforward, but people are listening Exactly,   Wallace Pond ** 1:08:26 yeah, and you know, people, they don't feel like they have authority in what's expected. Their managers are not giving them good feedback and coaching. You know, they might be managing time and resources, but they're not developing their people. No one asks anyone's opinion about contributing to goal setting or improvement or innovation. They don't feel like the organization gives a rat's ass about their well being, you know, their sense of purpose being part of a team, I said in a recent LinkedIn post just a few days ago. You know, this is not rocket science. I put it all caps, which I almost never do. This is not rocket science. And yet, there are so many leaders that just seem baffled by what's going on. And kind of, one of our goals at the at the transmission collaborative with our leadership Discovery Program, is to really, really get leaders over that hump, you know, and help them develop a completely different perspective. Now, you said it's not easy to do, and that's true, but it's not just because it's an it's a new approach, new skill set, right, new way of thinking, not just because, you know, organizational structures and compensation and culture doesn't necessarily support it, but it's also really hard because. Is, even if you're that kind of leader, that behavior is not traditionally rewarded for you as a leader, right? Like it, you know, it doesn't fit well into the you know, performance, you know, reports to the board and you know, on the fourth slide of the PowerPoint, it's, you know, it doesn't fit well into short term results. And so to do that as a leader, takes a tremendous amount of courage, and it's a really big risk, because you will be speaking a language that many people around you do not speak, that people you report to do not speak, and that has not been traditionally rewarded. So it's, it's, you're right. It is very hard to do for multiple reasons.   Michael Hingson ** 1:10:52 I hear you, you know what? We have been going almost 70 minutes, and I'm going to have to end because, because we have been going almost 70 minutes, yeah, but I think we should do another one of these.   Wallace Pond ** 1:11:06 I'd love to. In fact, I know that a whole bunch of the questions we kind of talked about before, I know we didn't even get   Michael Hingson ** 1:11:13 to, even get to so I would like to, yeah, I'm   Wallace Pond ** 1:11:16 totally fine. I love that. You know, these are the kinds of conversations I really, really enjoy Michael. I, you know, I don't think we do enough. You know, one of the things that I talked about, what I want to be true in my life, and what have I changed, and whatever, I dedicate a lot of time now to engagement, interactions, connections that I can't monetize, that, you know, that aren't about deliverables, that don't connect to some performance goal, but just are nourishing. Yeah, you know, just, and that's worth a lot, yeah? And I feel that's kind of what today's been. So I really appreciate that opportunity.   Michael Hingson ** 1:12:01 Well, if people want to reach out to you, maybe talk with you further, or consult or are use your your efforts and so on. How do they do that?   Wallace Pond ** 1:12:11 Yeah, so there's a couple ways to do that. If they want to go poke around on the transformation collaborative website, website, then they'll see a lot of stuff about, you know, research. We've done things, we've published trends, services. We provide both with transformation and leadership, discovery.

I have had the honor to talk with a number of career coaches, mindfulness advocates and experts as well as others who promote, in one way or another, introspection and self evaluation. Getting the opportunity on this episode to speak with Alicia Ramsdell who had considerable knowledge about all these subjects really puts many concepts into perspective. Alicia thought she wanted to be a veterinarian , but fairly quickly realized that, for her, animals was not a way to earn an income. She was, however, good in math and chose to begin a career in the executive recruiting industry where she worked for fifteen years. In 2019 she left that field after deciding to take the leap to start her own business helping people to better understand themselves and their career choices. Her last four years of work not only have been personally and financially rewarding, but she found that working for herself in the Covid era worked well. We talk about a number of topics including meditation, life choices, self analysis and introspection and what success really means. We discuss other things, but I will leave it to you to listen to hear everything. Near the end of our conversation we even learn why Alicia felt it was time to leave the executive career field and how difficult it was for her to really take the step to move on. I hope you enjoy our conversation. Lots of good snippets and lessons in life to hear. About the Guest: Alicia Ramsdell, a powerhouse career and mindfulness expert, TEDx speaker, and CEO of Mindful Career Path, LLC. With over 15 years of experience in Corporate America, Alicia has cultivated a life by design in Career Development roles, and is a Certified Career Services Provider, Global Career Development Facilitator, and certified in Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction and Organizational Mindfulness. Alicia provides invaluable insight into career development strategies, leveraging stress as a tool to elevate your life's work. She has three main priorities: captivating audiences as a keynote speaker, revolutionizing career development as a corporate partner for employees, and empowering individuals to achieve career fulfillment as a career coach. Her TEDx talk in York Beach, Maine, "Don't be afraid to fail in the career of your dreams. Be afraid to succeed in the career of your nightmares," is an inspiring reminder to pursue your passions fearlessly. As a Certified Career Services Provider (CCSP) and Global Career Development Facilitator (GCDF), Alicia provides a unique perspective on career development. Her focus on mindfulness, stress reduction, and career fulfillment sets her apart as an expert in the field. Join Alicia on her mission to design fulfilling and mindful careers for all. Her experience in Corporate America and as a mindfulness expert gives her a unique perspective on career development. Whether you're an individual looking to achieve career fulfillment or a corporation looking to revolutionize your approach to career development, Alicia has the expertise to help you reach your goals. Ways to connect with Jann: TEDx Talk: https://youtu.be/bWCaTE0d2ww?si=EiJ77c2jjZtvwD0Z Mindful Career Path's Website: www.mindfulcareerpath.com Alicia's LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/in/aliciaramsdell/ Mindful Career Path's LinkedIn Page: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mindful-career-path/ YouTube Link: https://www.youtube.com/@mindfulcareerpath Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/Mindful.Career.Path Twitter: https://twitter.com/Mindful_Careers Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Mindful.Career.Path/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Welcome once again to an episode of unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here with us today. Thanks for joining us, we get to talk with today a mindfulness mindfulness expert. If I could talk I'd be in good shape, a TEDx speaker, and a person who I've really come to enjoy and get to know she also has a company mindfulness career path. We're gonna get to all of that as we go forward. But I'd like you to meet Alicia Ramsdell. Alicia, how are you?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 01:51 Mike? I'm doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 01:54 thanks for being here. And Alicia lives in North of Boston. And as we were talking earlier, I lived in Winthrop, Massachusetts, and was there for three years and worked with a company in Cambridge, Massachusetts, Kurzweil Computer Products for a number of years in and around that. But I was in Boston in New York during the big blizzard of 78, which a lot of people don't remember, but it was quite the snowstorm and quite the time.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 02:24 I believe in I'm not going to tell you if I was born then or not, but that's okay. parents. My parents tell me about it.   Michael Hingson ** 02:30 Well, as I was mentioning, just before we came on, I used to frequent Durgan Park and Quincy Market, and I've heard that it closed down and Durgan Park was a restaurant that was very famous for family style, food and service. And they would not let you sit at one of the tables on the side for four people. Unless there were four of you. They made people sit in family style, and that was fine. But we went in one night there were several of us. Actually, I think there were only three of us. But I had my guide dog with me. At that time. It was Holland, my second guide, who was a wonderful, beautiful male golden retriever. And the hostess said, you know, just to make it easy. We're going to put you at one of the tables for four. And I said, Well, we're gonna get in trouble for that. And she said, No, you won't. Well, sure enough, the waitress came over and they're all trained to be real snots. And she said, You can't sit here. There are only three of you and you can't sit here and I said, well, the hostess said that we could sit here. No, she didn't. Yeah, she did. Because I have a guide dog. Oh, I'm not gonna fall for that. You don't have a dog. I don't see a dog. Well, Holland was well under the table. And the tablecloth came down, so she wouldn't have seen him. And she kept saying, No, you can't be here. And she walked away. And then she came back. She's there, you're gonna have to move. And I said, Look, there is a guide dog under the table. We were told we could sit here. She finally at least lift up the tablecloth. And there are these brown eyes looking out at her from under the table. And she goes, Oh, what a cute dog and she walks away and she comes back with a plate. Now Durgan Park was known for its prime rib and the prime rib was so large that it would hang over the sides of the plate sometimes anyway, she had this and she said a customer didn't finish it. Can I give it to the dog? For customer relations? I would normally say no. But I said Oh sure. So we made a friend for life. It was so funny because the nastiness went away.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 04:23 Nobody can be in a foul mood when they see a golden retriever. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 04:27 staring back at him. And Hollan was quite happy with prime rib. Well, that's our that's our Boston's that our busing story for the woman anyway, but I'm really glad that we have a chance to be here. So tell us a little about you. Maybe growing up in the earlier Alicia and all that stuff.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 04:45 Certainly. So as you mentioned, I grew up in and still live north of Boston, Massachusetts. And for a long time as a child I wanted to be a veterinarian, and I realized that myself actually I have a golden retriever. I've had three golden retrievers throughout my lifetime. So I've always really enjoyed having a pet. But as soon as I realized that veterinarians had to, you know, handle the surgery side of things, I knew that I couldn't stomach it. So I had to switch my thinking about where I would go, you know, Beyonds my childhood dreams of being a veterinarian. And as I moved on, I became really good at math. And my future took me to accounting and tax, and not as exciting as being a veterinarian, but there was a lot of job security around there. And the business program that I went through the school that I went to, had an excellent reputation. I made a lot of lifelong friends from there. And my career was 15 plus years in the accounting and tax industry. And although I really never loved what I was doing, I got to meet a lot of wonderful people along the way. And like I said, Before, I have the job security that comes along naturally with the tax and accounting, yes. But fast forward to the present day, I left the accounting and tax, accounting and tax industry in 2019. And I started my business mindful career path. And really what that stemmed from was, I saw a gap in the industry, or I should say, within corporate America, in general, of lacking career development conversations where people could feel that they could be vulnerable without any sort of backlash to it. A lot of people want to talk about developing in their careers, but sometimes with the internal resources, they were shy or hesitant to speak freely about where they were in their career, where they see things weren't working, or what was working. So I wanted to create a career development coaching business, where I would come in as the external consultant and have one on one confidential conversations with employees to help with their career development, allow them to be vulnerable in their conversations, and also add into that understanding their stress levels and helping them through mindfulness based stress reduction techniques. So that started in the beginning of 2020. And now towards the end of 2023. I really haven't looked   Michael Hingson ** 07:34 back since. Is your business at home?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 07:38 Yeah, remotely. Yeah. So which COVID was not a good thing? Yeah, the world. Yeah. But it worked out that the remote style of professionalism allows me now to work out of the comfort of my home. But at the same time, globally, so I have clients that are, you know, in Europe and the United States, and Asia, and sofa, and there's so much power and benefit to be able to work with people globally and understand the various cultures as well.   Michael Hingson ** 08:12 And that's why I ask the question, because you certainly were a lot more easily able to lock down then people since in the sense you are already working, where you live, so it was kind of easier probably to address that issue.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 08:28 Absolutely. And beyond COVID. If you think about it, a lot of individuals were experiencing overwhelming stress just because of the change in their regular lifestyle. So the combination of career development coaching, but with that mindfulness based stress reduction approach was extremely beneficial to any individual. And it didn't matter which industry they were in.   Michael Hingson ** 08:56 Yeah. Which, which makes a lot of sense. And you were certainly able to do that we locked down my wife had rheumatoid arthritis. So we really were very sensitive to it. But I mostly worked virtually and remotely. So I worked from home and continue to work from home. Except for when I'm traveling, obviously, but it makes a lot of sense. And the reality is, we can make working virtually or working from home as easy or as hard as we want. And it really is a choice. And the fact of the matter is it does work pretty well if we want it to to be able to work from home rather than always having to go into an office somewhere.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 09:38 Absolutely. And to add to that point, I certainly see the benefit of building relationships in person and the difference between you know, a virtual setting and an in person setting. But the flexibility like you said, that remote capability really allows us to grow leaps and bounds runs in our businesses as well as professionally when we want to connect with, you know, people halfway across the world.   Michael Hingson ** 10:08 You indicated that you're certified in mindfulness based stress reduction and organizational mindfulness. How do you get certified in that?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 10:20 Sure. So there, I don't know if you've heard of Jon Kabat Zinn, but he's kind of the godfather of mindfulness. And he started this program out of the UMass Medical School MBSR program, so Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction Program, and I started this program. And I think it was 2019. Now I'm forgetting this specific year, but through a recommendation of a friend of mine, who was going through previously, he had went through his own really overwhelming stressful moments in his world. And I was explaining to him, you know, this business, I was considering creating, and my own stressors in my life. And he recommended this program, and he said, it was life changing. So it was a pretty incredible program that I went through, it was a remote opportunity, but we learned, you know, various forms of meditation and mindfulness and so forth. So body scan meditation, we learned, you know, mindful eating, mindful walking, you know, you know, think it was chair yoga, and so forth. So there were a lot of opportunities there. And then this organizational mindfulness program really stemmed from it was sort of an extension of this MBSR program. And it had more of a focus around professionals in their, you know, corporate settings, and how you could apply these techniques within the corporate setting, or as a leader.   Michael Hingson ** 11:50 So what is mindfulness? If you were to define it,   Alicia Ramsdell ** 11:55 certainly, so not really my own definition, or something that I've learned through the teachings of Jon Kabat Zinn. But it's really being present in the current moment, non judgmentally. So you're aware of what's happening without judgment. And that's the a pretty basic definition. But it allows you to be in a moment, in a neutral state, if you can think of it that way. So whether there's highs or lows, whatever the environment calls for, you can be in that state, non judgmentally. Be in this neutral state, and be able to better reflect on it moving forward, then getting really high about it, or really low about it, and kind of making as you would call it, like a rash decision in the given moment in the heat of the moment. So that's the way that Jon Kabat Zinn explains it. And that's something that has resonated with me, thinking back to my own stressors. And I'll pause there for a moment. That's okay.   Michael Hingson ** 13:00 It, it seems to me that one of the things that is really important for people to think about is, especially in our world today, mindfulness relating to fear. How does mindfulness help one deal with fear and not as I would call it being blinded or overwhelmed by fear when something unexpected happens, or just with everything going on in the world.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 13:23 So I've, throughout my journey, if you're if you're thinking about fear, or like failures or setbacks, I developed this consistent mindfulness practice. And it's been instrumental in how I handle situations of fear, it really taught me the importance of being non judgmental, and fully present in those moments of, of setback of fear. And instead of pushing it away, or trying to avoid the emotions altogether, I've learned to sit with the emotions and allow myself to fully experience it. And what this does is it really creates a space for reflection and self awareness. And it enables you to gain some insights into what's the best way to move forward. And that's kind of a general theme. But that wasn't always the way I did things in my previous life, as I like to call it. I didn't have a meditation practice. So I used to rely on this notion that that failures or fear would eventually subside on its own. But as time went on, I realized that this approach only added more pressure to that situation. And it became so overwhelming in my life, that I started experiencing physical manifestations of this stress, you know, to the point where I felt like walls are closing in around me. So that that those points in my life is when I consciously made the decision to integrate mindfulness and meditation into my daily routine. And this shift really allows you a sense, allows you a way To cultivate a sense of calm and resilience, and when you do face these challenges when you do face these fears, and it can help you, throughout those fears, have a greater sense of clarity and not to become overwhelmed by those emotions,   Michael Hingson ** 15:18 this being mindful help you or would it help us to address the issue of, we're always trying to control everything. And the reality is we don't have control over everything in the world, and that we really need to focus on the things that we have control over as opposed to all the other stuff that we don't, that we let stress us out.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 15:41 Does that make sense? To repeat the question one more time.   Michael Hingson ** 15:45 When you talk about being mindful, and one of the things that comes to mind for me is that people are always trying are always stressed out because things are happening. And most of it is stuff they have no control over. Does mindfulness help. One focus on dealing with just the things that you do have control over and lessening the worry or eliminating the worry about all the things you can't control?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 16:11 So mindfulness from from that perspective, right, there are things you're right, that we can control. And there are things that we can control? Well, what mindfulness does is it allows you to be aware of what you can control and what you can't control. Because sometimes in life, we think we can control everything. And you exactly, we want to control everything. So it becomes overwhelming to think, why is this situation going this way? And why can't I control it. But what mindfulness lets you do is sit in that moment, and be able to reflect. And then once you get outside of being in the present moment, non judgmentally, you can say, What can I do about this is this out of my control is this in my control, if it's out of my control, then you can move on in a different direction. Or if it's in your control, you can build a strategy around, you know how to make this go differently moving forward. But it just really what it does, it's really doesn't set up for control or lack of control, right just allows you to be aware of where that control lies and where it doesn't, and be able to move forward with that realization. This,   Michael Hingson ** 17:24 the fact that you are if you practice mindful techniques regularly, does all of that become easier.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 17:32 For me, it personally has some people fear when they start their mindfulness practice or meditation practice that, oh, I can't, I can't shut off my my mind, it's always running. And that's a myth. Meditation is not for shutting your mind off or clearing your mind. Again, it's somebody once said, this example, and it really stuck with me. So I'm going to share it again, knowing that it's not my own. But it's imagine you were sitting on the side of a busy road, and cars are going in every direction, and you try to walk out onto that road. And, you know, stick your hands up and tell everybody to stop, there will be chaos and confusion there. There'll be cars crashing into each other. Why is your personnel in the middle of the road. So that's as if you were trying to control the practice, meditation is more think about yourself staying on that side of the road, having a lounge chair chair sitting down on that lounge chair, and just watching the traffic go by not trying to stop anything, but realize it's happening. Hey, this is a busy road. Yeah. And so as you have that mindset, going into starting a meditation practice, or starting a mindfulness practice, that's where you start to grow, rather than assuming you have to clear your mind, or, or anything like that.   Michael Hingson ** 18:55 Yeah, I started doing transcendental meditation in college and have appreciated not only that, but just the whole concept of meditation ever since. And I've maintained for a number of years that we don't do nearly as much introspection and looking at ourselves and what we do and why we do it, and how we can fix it as we should. I used to say all the time, when I listen to speeches I've given I'm my own worst critic, and I realized in the last couple of years, wrong thing to say, I'm not my own worst critic. I read somewhere that, in reality, the only one who can teach me anything is me. Other people can give me all the information, but I have to be the one to teach me to do it. And what I realized is I'm not my own worst critic. I'm my own best teacher, which is also a lot more positive anyway, and we, we don't say nearly enough positive things. So it seems to be that's a very powerful thought to have.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 19:52 Certainly, and you've hit on two really great points that the self talk that we give each other our brain doesn't know if it's Reality, or if it's just something we're thinking. So if it can't decipher between reality and just thoughts in your head, why not give positive self talk not to give fake self talk, but positive self talk to say, like you said, I'm my best my own best teacher, and you flipped it and gave it a different perspective. And that's what you suck to believe. And then the other thing I wanted to touch on, you talked about Transcendental Meditation. That's actually where I started as well. And I read a book called strengthen stillness by Bob Roth. And that was the start of my, you know, meditation. In my mindfulness, education really was self taught, talking about being your own best teacher.   Michael Hingson ** 20:43 Have you ever read 10%, happier by Dan Abrams, I have not Daniel's from on Good Morning America, and so on. And he wrote this book several years ago. And it's his journey in meditation. And he I don't think primarily does Transcendental Meditation, but he does meditate. And it's made a significant difference in his connection on the air, and just in him in general. And so he describes it as being 10%. Happier.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 21:18 Yeah, I love it. I put it on my, my list of books to read.   Michael Hingson ** 21:24 It's well worth reading. Well, you have you have been dealing with, obviously, like all of us different habits and so on, what's a habit that you had to change? Or that you decided to change? As you were going down your journey? And why did you change that in order to achieve your goals?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 21:44 So let's start when I was younger, I used to believe that there were specific paths that you had to follow in order to be successful in life and wherever that part of your life was, was, was was what it was. So this belief stayed with me as I grew up, and even into my adult years. So when I was younger, I thought that maintaining friendships meant always being agreeable, agreeable, like borderline submissive. However, as I got older, I realized the importance of being confident in who I was, and staying true to myself. And it was through this authenticity, that I started to form deeper friendships, deeper relationships with people who truly accepted and loved me for who I was. And similarly that I use that same mindset. When it came to careers later on in life, I believe that there were a certain set of rules, and a specific formula for achieving a successful career. And in the earlier days of my career, I play by those rules, right, Simon Sinek has the book out, I think it's called the infinite game, he talks about, you know, finite game and infinite game and finite game has, you know, a certain set of rules in the same number of players or certain players within it. But I realized that I was playing by these rules, and I didn't really advocate for myself or trust my own instincts. But as time went on, I learned that the value, I learned the value of trusting my intuition, and also standing up for myself in my career, and I discovered that success really isn't found with a predetermined path. I needed to embrace my unique strengths. And then from there, pursue the opportunities that align with those strengths, right, that made sense in the values that I held in the professional passions that I wanted to pursue. And   Michael Hingson ** 23:38 of course, it's important to keep in mind that success is different for each of us. And success. doesn't even necessarily need to be material. But we we're always talking about, we need to be successful. And we really need to define what that means for us, and not how everybody else wants it to find it for us. I   Alicia Ramsdell ** 23:59 couldn't agree more. And, like you said, not only is success different for different people, there's also different timelines. I used to think that Okay, once you graduate college, you need to have a job right away, you can't take any time off. Or same with high school. Once you graduate high school, you can take any time off before you go to college, I had these just all these predetermined paths that I had to stay on, for me to be successful. But honestly, some of the most successful people I know, that Uber uber successful, didn't graduate college, or they graduated college, and they never went to grad school, or, you know, they didn't have a family started at the age of 35. Or, you know, whatever, whatever the rules were. There are a lot of successful people and it's different timelines and different setups as well. If   Michael Hingson ** 24:53 we talk about success in a materialistic sort of way. It seems to me that If you're really going to look at why are you successful, whoever you are, it really comes down to the choices that you make, and that you made. And can you really go back and look at those choices and see what you learned along the way?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 25:15 Absolutely, I created this four quadrant strategy to career fulfillment. And it's a reflection exercise. And we can go through it later. But it's a reflection exercise that really dives into where are your successes? Where are you thriving? Where do you want to learn more? And then on the flip side, kind of where are you successful, don't care to pursue more? And where do you just have responsibilities and don't care to pursue more, but it really allows you that time to bring awareness to what's working, what's not working, again, be non judgmental about it, but then build a strategy moving forward on what to pursue? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 25:52 it still all comes back to you choosing to be self analytical, and then introspective in order to really look at what you're doing and what works and what isn't working. And I stay away from using the word failure because it has such a negative connotation. But I do believe, as some have said that failure is really just an opportunity to learn. And so I don't regard failure as a negative thing, but rather, is a way to have something that comes along and says, Okay, what are you going to learn from this? Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah. And we really need to look at a lot of things in different ways than we do. Do you think that we're changing our attitudes collectively on some of these things, and that we're learning some of the concepts that we're talking about here?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 26:52 I think there's, I think since COVID, I think people are really trying to implement the more, you know, taking more time for self reflection, taking more time for our mental health. You know, whether you use, you know, mindfulness as a whole, or specifically meditation. But I think, you know, from a career perspective, organizations are trying to implement this. Not just idea, but you know, actionable items that people can use, to really make sure that we're going in a direction, that's not just beneficial to the organization, but also to us as individuals. And I don't think we're 100% there yet. But I think there's more awareness around everything that we're talking about today. And I'm hopeful, as you know, younger generations who kind of lived through COVID, and maybe high school days, or even their college days. And this is all they've known since they came into the professional world. And as they become the leaders, right, there are future leaders within organizations and so forth. I think that we're only going to get better from here, given the perspective of pursuing professional interests, that really speak to yourself and really benefit an organization's mission, vision values, and then also being aware of our mental health and our, you know, overall well being.   Michael Hingson ** 28:37 Well, for me, I know, just in talking about what you're describing here, it seems to me that we really need to learn from history more than in the past, we have and that we need to recognize that history is is history, the end, it can be a valuable tool for us. For me. Somewhere along the line. As I was speaking, I suddenly realized as I went to schools, I'm talking to students who never had any direct personal knowledge of September 11. And that now, it's history to them. And I need to recognize that if I want to really communicate with them, and my job as someone who was there is to draw them in. And so I love to people say, are you really bothered about telling your story? Well, I love to tell the story if I can get people to be drawn in and really see what happened that day, and internalize it so that they make it part of their history as well, rather than it just being something that happened. And I think that's true for most anything that we do. So I think you're right, the more we can talk about it, the more we can make conversations about things like mindfulness, what the significance is, and really tell stories to Help people understand that, the better it will be because as we have people growing up, they're hearing more about it. And by really drawing them in, they'll internalize it more, it seems to me.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 30:13 Yeah. And you're right. It's it with the example of September 11. It's a part of the history books. And for those younger individuals who didn't live through, whether you were there or just live through watching it on TV, while it was happening, the stories that people share, really bring it to life. And you know, just a say aloud, I recently read your book, Thunder dog. And it was a side of September 11, that I had never experienced. And of course, I've seen the footage I've heard as many stories as I possibly can. But every time you hear somebody else's account of the day, it brings it all back, like it was happening all over again. So it was an incredible book that you wrote, well,   Michael Hingson ** 31:06 my wife is one of the people who said, Remember, for so many people, September 11th, was only as large as their television screen, or the pictures they saw in the newspaper inch. And she absolutely was right about that. But the other, but the other part about it is that even on that day, so after a while, on September 11, I eventually was able to get up toward Midtown Manhattan, and get on to a train to go back over to New Jersey. And people even on that train said, you're all dirty and dusty. Were you there? Well, what happened, you know, even then I Mike began to hear and start to recognize these people were only a couple of miles away. But to them, they didn't see it, it really wasn't the same as being there. And, you know, the only thing I think that I can do to help history and to help people is to, in a sense, and not in a negative way, but make September 11 alive, so that people understand the choices that got us there the choices that got me there the choices that got me out, and why remembering it is so important. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And it's, you know, it is one of those things. Well, so, you know, we we talked about you changing beliefs, and so on, if you could go back and talk to a younger Alisha, and give her one piece of advice, what would that be? And and then as she grew up, how would that have impacted her life, which means it would have impacted your life.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 32:52 So I'd love to pick just one thing, but I might I know it's hard. You can go ahead. So first of all, I would tell my younger self to start practicing meditation earlier. In my life, it's really amazing how much clarity and peace of mind can come from taking a few moments a day, to focus in on the present moment, non judgmentally, right, I go through anywhere from 20 minutes to 45 minutes a day of meditation. And, and I do it at the very beginning of my day, right after, right after I wake up. So it sets me up for obviously a positive start, but a clearer start, which is nice, too. And then second, I really encourage myself to trust my gut trust my intuition more. I won't say all the time. But most of the time, our gut feelings can really, really guide us in the right direction, even when logic and reason can suggest otherwise. But learning to listen to my inner voice and trusting it, I believe really could have led to some incredible opportunities and personal growth. Now, I don't regret things that I did you know, previously, you know, because it got me to where I am today. But if I could go back, that's when I would share with my younger self. And then one maybe silly thing, but then but I think it could really benefit myself and a lot of other people is I think I would urge myself to practice Brazilian jujitsu. It's a great physical activity, of course, but I've heard the benefits and I haven't done it yet. Right? The mental health benefits. It's consistently challenging yourself in that regard is on a map. But what it's doing, it's improving your mental focus. It's improving your problem solving abilities, right, you're on this mat, and you have this unique opportunity to test out solutions and then receive immediate impact or immediate feedback and say, do this work know, how can I get out of this situation, but you're not allowed to panic on the mat. And I think that we were talking before about fear. A lot of what comes with fear is, is panic, right? That initial moment of panic. And I think Brazilian jujitsu can really help with the problem solving could really help with critical thinking in its physical form. So it's good exercise. But I, I've heard, and I want to put it into practice. And I feel like as I get older, I've become more fearful of starting it. So that's why I would have told my younger self to start early.   Michael Hingson ** 35:43 Well, time to jump in and try it. And then you're gonna have to come back and talk with us about it so we can hear how it goes.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 35:51 i Well, I'm hoping it goes, well.   Michael Hingson ** 35:54 What are you going to start?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 35:57 I don't know. I have to set it up. But that's, that's my, that's, that's my goal. I'm not.   Michael Hingson ** 36:04 I'm not familiar with Brazilian jujitsu. And I must admit, I don't exercise probably as much as I should. One of the things that I've done, I've started doing a lot more walking. And in the winter, it gets cold here in Victorville. So I discovered that I can still walk around the house, we have a Long Island, it's probably bout a 10 foot long island. And so I've started doing laps around the island, and I'll read a book or sometimes just think while I'm doing it, but I can get well over 10,000 steps just walking around that bar. Now it's level, it's not a hill, or around that island. It's not a it's not hills. But my Apple Watch says great you got in 10,000 steps today. So I can't argue totally with that. So it's a great way to get exercise. And I can do it even in the house. And what I'm really saying is, we can always find ways to accomplish things like that, if we choose to, yeah,   Alicia Ramsdell ** 37:04 walking around an island 10,000 steps or walking 10,000 steps outside and your brain doesn't know the difference. It just knows that you're walking.   Michael Hingson ** 37:12 Yeah. And it doesn't care. And, and so I can do it. And it goes really well. So my my brain and my Apple watch, like the idea. So I get the information. And it's really kind of cool. So I basically tried to do that every day. And it's a way that I also can, while I'm doing that think and sometimes meditate, although best meditations are when you can sit and relax in it, it is enough, Faker, a hokey thing to do that. But if you're really gonna meditate, then you need to allow yourself to drift and not try to make choices or do anything while you're meditating. But you've got to let your brain relax as well. And look at the day.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 38:00 And that's the beauty of meditation, you don't have to do anything. You just sit there in that present moment with your thoughts. And you can have a focus point, right? Whether that be your breath, or anything else. But every time your mind shifts to a thought or a worry or concern, acknowledge it, and then bring it back to that focus point. So like I said, with your breath, think of like a flashlight, leaving the spot that you was originally on just bringing that flashlight back to that spot?   Michael Hingson ** 38:32 And looking at why it's there. And what what, if anything, could you really do about it anyway? Right? And it's fair to think about what can you do about it, if anything, anyway, again, it gets back to not trying to control every little thing that comes along. Exactly. So with all the things that you're doing regarding mindset, which I find fascinating and absolutely relevant, how do you handle failure? And when you're dealing with setbacks, how do you handle those? And what strategies have you adopted to deal with that?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 39:07 Yeah, so I alluded to this earlier, but really, my mindfulness practice has helped me throughout my life and failures or when I started this process. So it was, in my days of corporate America, I really started my mindfulness practice. So specifically for me, like I mentioned before, it's 20 to 45 minutes every morning when I first wake up. And what this allows me to do is that I know that failures and setbacks are going to happen throughout my days. This gives me a chance to just sit with those feelings, sit with those emotions, in a sense, peacefully. And then I feel like when I do, get out of the meditation practice, I then workout and exercise. I then focus on you know, getting my kids After school, from there, I go outside and I take my dog for a walk. So I'm getting that sunlight. I'm getting that extra exercise with walking outside with a fresh year. And by the time I come back and have a healthy breakfast, whatever failures and setbacks I was worried about from the day before, starting my day, the way I do between a meditation practice and exercise practice, you know, getting a walk in outside getting that sunlight having a healthy breakfast, I feel like almost like Superwoman, I can kind of handle anything, because I've empowered myself physically and mentally, for the day. And I almost accept the fact that I shouldn't even say almost, I do accept the fact that failures and setbacks are going to come along the way. So I think it's a part of being realistic, and not kind of putting your head in the sand like, Oh, I'm not gonna have any failures or setbacks. This is gonna go swimmingly. I prep myself to say, when something does go wrong, this is what I want you to do, Alicia, right, I want you to sit with the emotions of it not going right. Kind of journaling. What happens specifically, without emotion involved? What specifically happened, it's like, oh, I'm really upset because this person didn't call when they were supposed to, or this person didn't show up to a meeting, or I was late because of a traffic situation, or whatever it was, without emotion. It's this happened, this happened. This happened, very matter of fact, and then coming back to it and saying, Okay, moving forward, what if that didn't happen? How would that have set me up for success? And kind of going backwards, working from what did happen? Working our way backwards, and then trying to go back forward? I know that sounds a little convoluted, but I'm trying to figure out what were the specific actions that didn't allow it to happen? And then say, Okay, well, if that didn't happen, what would have been more successful? Or what would have been better about the situation? Have you ever had strategy? You ever   Michael Hingson ** 42:13 had any real major setback in your life that just completely threw you off your game? And how did you deal with that?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 42:21 Well, being in corporate America for 15 years, I faced a pivotal moment after the end of that when I had to make a decision to leave and start my own business. Now, no, I didn't have to start my own business, I could have stayed in corporate America. But it was a challenging decision for me, because I was I had to let go of job security. For me, that's a significant step, considering my backgrounds in accounting, and tax with an undergraduate degree, a graduate degree and extensive experience that I gained in the industry. But I discovered that in my days in corporate America that like I said, Before, there was a gap in career development landscape within corporate America. There were a lot of internal resources that provided employee support. But I noticed again, like I said, there was a need for confidential one on one conversations, career development conversations. And many individuals were hesitant to openly discuss their career aspirations and their challenges with internal resources. So what I do with mindful career path is I set this framework up, where we combine career development, one on one coaching in a confident confidential setting, think of like, you know, the doctor patient confidentiality, and then while also addressing individual stress levels. So for me, the difficult piece came when, at the end of corporate, my corporate America is I was going through a toxic work situation. And I was trying to handle it internally and stay there internally, because of the fear of leaving job security. I never really imagined myself as someone who would take the risk to be, you know, a business owner, but I had a lot of self dealt in leaving, right, that whole imposter syndrome, can I really do this? Can I really start my own business? But after dealing with some toxic work environment factors, I realized I only have this one life to live. Do I choose to stay in toxicity? For another 15 years, just because I felt there was job security? Or do I take those next 15 years, even five years, even one year and try to make a difference for anybody else not to experience the same thing I was experiencing in that moment. Right offer up this car You're developing conversation offer up stress, mindfulness, stress, mindfulness based stress reduction techniques to individuals. So that was a really difficult decision for me. And I think what I learned, again, I talked about this before, is trusting my intuition trusting my gut. And I'm glad I did. Because as I said, Before, I started this in 2020. And I haven't looked back   Michael Hingson ** 45:22 since. Yeah, we often just choose not to listen to that inner voice. And I'm glad that you do it is an important thing. I love to use the example of Trivial Pursuit. How many times does somebody play Trivial Pursuit? And the question comes up whatever it is, and an answer flashes in their mind. But then they go, No, that can't be it. And so that's not the answer they give it invariably was the right answer. Yeah, it's, it's so true. happens all too often. On the other hand, it's a great teaching tool to try to teach us to use our inner voice more. And I know that when I do that, and I listen. More often than not, it is the right answer. And people say, How can you know so much? And you know, how do you tell them, You got to listen to your inner voice, you can tell them that they don't listen. But nevertheless, that's what it is. Because oftentimes, it's about something I've never heard of before, or I just don't know anything about. Yeah. That inner voice picks up on so many things that we don't. Yes, yeah. And   Alicia Ramsdell ** 46:27 it's something that I think comes with time, it comes with experience that comes with age to say, remember that time they did listen to my gut, or my intuition and see how it went, why not give it a shot. So I think it's more about building up that confidence level, to trust your gut to trust your intuition. But   Michael Hingson ** 46:46 it is something that you have to practice doing and you have to make a conscious decision to do it. And sometimes when it just doesn't seem like you should do it, you still have to decide that's what I've got to do. Because it will give you the better answer whatever that is. Absolutely. Well, so what do you do so so by the way, you got two kids, how old are the children?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 47:13 11 and 10. Oh boy, boys, one boy and one girl one   Michael Hingson ** 47:19 of each. Like is future bride is there is there a mister in the in the scene and the picture here? Yes.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 47:25 Yep. My husband Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 47:27 What does he do?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 47:29 He works at in the investment management industry. Does   Michael Hingson ** 47:34 he trust his gut?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 47:38 Yes, he does. Good thing for the most part. If not If not I help them with that. But yes, for the most part, any trust is good. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 47:46 that's a good thing. Well, you've got you know, a cool family. I have a dog and a cat and I haven't mentioned stitch so this is the first time that stitch the cat has been involved in listening and watching a podcast so I've talked about stitch the kitty many times but here she is there a stitch the cat, and we welcome stitch to unstoppable mindset to she's actually she's been very quiet. She hasn't yelled or anything. So she's been very comfy up here on the chair, which is great.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 48:17 What do you do? Guest   Michael Hingson ** 48:19 Oh, she's she's a great guest. Yeah. And then Alamo. The guide dog is over here. He's here's here. Most of the time. He says I'll just lay down and listen, I don't need to do anything. What do you do when, when outside of work to relax and so on? I know we talked about medication but then since I'm not sure that's totally outside work. What else do you do for playtime?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 48:40 Yeah, so,   Michael Hingson ** 48:42 this besides thinking about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but that's,   Alicia Ramsdell ** 48:47 yeah, so one area that there's really two things that I guess kind of like light me up when I'm outside of work. So one area I'm really passionate about is living. And this might not sound fun to other people, but really living an overall healthy lifestyle. So I really like to learn more about how can I optimize my sleep? How can I engage more mindfulness activities, as we've talked about, how can I get regular exercise? How can I, you know, nourish my body with with healthy food choices, but even beyond that, it's become more of like a family affair, where my husband does a lot of research on this. And we've gotten our kids involved in in really understanding the background of this, but things like you know, grounding, right, bare feet on the ground, outside, getting that much needed sunlight, you know, be mindful of the skincare products we put on our skin. And we're as a family, we're really trying to embrace this more like a holistic approach to health and wellness. So that's something that we talk about often. And I think just the excitement of living a healthy lifestyle, the excitement of longevity moving forward, but then another area that really lights me up is working with Youth, right. And that could be in two different dimensions really. But it all relates to building youth confidence. So for me, it's coaching youth sports is getting involved in programs at the high school level, like the business, DECA chapter, which inspires high school students, you know, into their professional or business pursuits. And I teach also at the college level. And again, I do this because I really enjoy seeing the positive impact on on the lives of these of these, whether young individuals as kids or young adults in college, and it fills me with a deep sense of fulfillment, that I could have a positive influence and watch their confidence levels grow, no matter what capacity that's in, right, again, sports, you know, professional pursuits at when they're thinking about it in high school, or even in college classroom. And so those are two different things. But coincidentally, they're very much related kind of to my professional passions.   Michael Hingson ** 51:06 What do you teach in college?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 51:09 I teach that in Beverly at Endicott College. Okay. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 51:13 that's, that is pretty cool and exciting. We haven't talked about the fact that you've written a book.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 51:19 Yes, well, a children's book, I wrote a children's book, and it's called The One and Only incredible me.   Michael Hingson ** 51:24 Well, tell us about that, if you would, please.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 51:28 Sure, it stems from, again, the work that I do professionally. And then I get so excited to talk about it to really anybody. But I even talk about my work to my kids, which I never did before when I was in accounting and tax, as you can imagine, but I would talk to my kids about, hey, you can grow up to be, you know, whatever it is that you would like to be, you know, as long as you put in the effort, and you have the knowledge base, and so forth. And I said a lot of people along the way, are going to make suggestions to you, oh, you should be this. So you should do this, you should do that. And I said, and you don't have to do that, if it doesn't make sense for you. But again, it's kind of reflecting on on what do you want, rather than what does everyone else expect of you. So the book, the one and only incredible me is kind of a fun way to explore, hey, well, when I was younger, my preschool teacher said, Oh, he's going to be an architect one day. And then my high school teacher saw I was good at math. And they said, Oh, he's going to be an engineer one day, and it kind of keeps going on. And it's an interactive book to say, you know, all these wonderful people in my life suggests that I was this, this and this. But I wasn't that in the end, guess what I was, I do this, and I really love what I do. So it's not to, you know, lessen the impact of well intentioned adults in our lives, but it's just to promote our own self awareness, and, you know, excitement to engage in whatever pursuits that we want professionally moving forward.   Michael Hingson ** 53:02 Mr. Campbell was my freshman in high school geography teacher. And I don't know why I am, as I am, but I was brought up to value what my teachers tell me. And, and I remember lots of different things and lots of different kinds of concepts that my teachers brought to my attention. And a lot of times, they were not necessarily in the subjects that the teachers were teaching, for example, Mr. Campbell, once said, he did all sorts of tests, when he was younger to decide what he wanted to do. And everything pointed to the fact that he should be a plumber. But yet, he ended up being a geography teacher, and I would still to this day, say, a good one.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 53:53 Yeah. And imagine this world without him because of the impact that he had on you if he had went down, you know? Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 54:02 And, you know, I remember things about geography, although I don't remember what exactly to attribute to Him. But I remembered that lesson from him. And I've had others like that from from teachers. And when they're speaking from the heart like that, it it really does tend to stick with you. And I think it is, as you point out really important for us to really recognize that we are our own selves. And it is our choices. And the earlier we can learn about making good choices or making choices and valuing those choices. Even if they don't turn out right, using that information to grow is very important to do.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 54:43 And the impact that they have can be profound on you know, future generations. The fact that you're still talking about him today is you know, speaks volumes. And   Michael Hingson ** 54:54 the the choice can be good or bad depending on how you decide to deal with it. Whatever it is, right? Yeah. Which is, which is really so cool. Well, let me ask one last question, what's the unique challenge or unique way that you overcome challenges? What's something that you use to overcome challenges and how can others apply it.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 55:18 So when it comes to navigating this, the complexities of today's modern world, I believe, like I've mentioned a number of times that intuition, and self reflection are two of the most powerful tools that can guide us, you know, and specifically, when I when I talk about a lot is career fulfillment, but you can talk about life fulfillment in general, we're living in this world that's referred to as the VUCA world. And this is a world characterized or characterized by volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity. And because this world is rapidly changing it, it's essential to have a strategy that helps us make sense of our past, write our past experiences, and then use those to chart a course for our future. So this is why I developed and I referenced before, but a framework that I refer to as the four quadrant strategy to career fulfillment, again, you can, you know, change your career life. But what this framework combines is the wisdom of trusting your intuition, and the valuable insights that you've gained from your past experiences. So as I mentioned, the four quadrant strategy, they think of a piece of paper, drawing a line down the middle, and then a line across the center, it's now four quadrants. And in the first top left quadrant, think of things where you have been successful, and where you are thriving and write them down. And the bottom left quadrant, you want to write down areas where you're not yet successful, but you want to learn more about it. So think of those as your learning opportunities. Now switching over to the right side, in the top right corner, you want to write areas where you are successful, but don't really care to pursue more of it. And then in the bottom right quadrant, you want to write down areas where you have responsibilities, you're not necessarily you know, the go to person for them, and you don't care to pursue moving forward. So again, with this overall framework and engaging with it, you don't want to overthink your answers, right? We want to trust our gut instincts, we want to trust our intuition. And this allows our initial thoughts to be exactly as they are no judgment, just writing down our responses. And after we've completed, we take time to reflect on these answers. And then we evaluate, hey, how do these answers align with where I'm currently at, in my career in my life? And how can they be used towards my future aspirations. And then again, you embrace that intuition. You embrace the self reflection process, and you gain clarity, for what you value as well as a professional, what you value is just a human being, and you can use it for areas of growth moving forward.   Michael Hingson ** 58:23 And that is a pretty cool set of techniques that I think anyone can use. And clearly, it's a way where you can discover and learn and grow. Right? Exactly.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 58:34 And it doesn't, you know, sometimes you might hear a framework and might say, Wow, that sounds pretty simple and easy. But at the same time, sometimes it's so simple and easy things that we need to do that can really propel us and can be have a profound impact on our futures. Yeah. It   Michael Hingson ** 58:55 doesn't need to be as I would say, magical to be something that's valuable to do. Well, Alicia, I really want to thank you for being with us on unstoppable mindset. And clearly you demonstrate that kind of a mindset. If people want to reach out to you and maybe talk to you about being a coach or helping them how do they do that?   Alicia Ramsdell ** 59:15 Certainly, they can go to my full career path.com And all my social media links are there, or they can find me on LinkedIn. I think I'm the only Alicia Ramsdell on there. So it's going to be hard to find me spell   Michael Hingson ** 59:30 that for me though, if you would, Alicia.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 59:33 Sure. A l i c i a. Last name R a m s d e l l   Michael Hingson ** 59:43 So reach out to Alicia. Clearly lots of good information. And I think she's a very thoughtful individual that can add value to all of us. And one of the things that I love to do and having these conversations is I get to learn. And I figure if I'm not learning as least as much as other people that I'm not doing my job for me and for anyone else well, so I really value the time that you have taken. And I really value the lessons that you've taught me and hopefully others today. So I really appreciate that. So thank you for being here. And I want to thank you all for listening out there. We really appreciate you, commenting on Alicia's conversation with us today. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to unstoppable mindset. Please give us your comments and your thoughts. We'd love them. If you'd like to reach out to me directly. I would invite you to do that please reach out you can email me at Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i at accessibe  A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And then Michael Hinkgon is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. So I hope that you enjoyed today that you learned something from it reach out to Alicia and I have to say once again, Alicia, thank you for your review about thunder dog. Absolutely.   Alicia Ramsdell ** 1:01:11 Thank you, Michael. And while you're at it, everyone go out on Amazon and pick up the underdog.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:17 Wow. Well thank you again for being here. We really appreciate it.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:01:24 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Kelly Brakenhoff is an author of six books and an ASL interpreter from Nebraska. She has served as an interpreter for deaf and hard of hearing persons now for over 30 years. You can tell how much she likes her chosen professions by listening to her as you get to do in this episode.   Kelly is especially excited by a series of books she has started involving Duke the Deaf Dog where she introduces readers to ASL, American Sign Language. She is working to help readers, especially children, better understand the deaf and hard of hearing community. On top of everything Kelly has done, she has used the crowdfunding program, Kickstarter, to help fund her newest book. It turns out that another famous author also used this program to fund their efforts. You get to hear all about it.   I very much hope you enjoy our episode this time and that you will give us a 5 rating. Thanks for listening.   About the Guest:   Kelly Brakenhoff is an author of six books and an ASL interpreter from Nebraska, US. She divides her writing energy between two series: cozy mysteries set on a college campus, and picture books featuring Duke the Deaf Dog.  Parents, kids, and teachers love the children's books because they teach American Sign Language using fun stories. And if you like a smart female sleuth, want to learn more about Deaf culture, or have ever lived in a place where livestock outnumber people, you'll enjoy the Cassandra Sato Mystery series.   Social media links:   kellybrakenhoff.com and follow her social media or blog by using this link: https://kellybrakenhoff.com/quicklinks/   About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is an Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes* Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson  01:21 Hi, and here we are once again with unstoppable mindset, the podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected me. And the unexpected, as always, is the fun part of the podcast. We love to carry on different kinds of conversations with people learn about them. And you know what I'm going to say once again, for any of you listening out there, I'd love to have conversations with you. I'll bet you have stories that we should talk about. So definitely reach out. Michael hingson.com/podcast or Michaelhi@accessibie.com. And I'd love to chat with you. But for now, we have Kelly Brakenhoff, who is here with us. She is an author, and ASL interpreter, and a Kickstarter campaign runner par excellence. But does that elevate you are what Kelly Welcome to unstoppable mindset. How are you?   Kelly Brakenhoff  02:18 Hi, I'm great. Thank you for having me. today. I'm really excited to be talking to you.   Michael Hingson  02:24 Well, I'm really excited to have a chance to chat with you and learn all about you and and learn why you're unstoppable. When I started this podcast, because we think that everyone has a story to tell, we all have had challenges in our lives and, and we've overcome them. And it doesn't need to be a huge challenge. But still a challenge is a challenge. And when we overcome it, that's great. And when we recognize that we did something that we didn't think we can do, then I think we fall into this concept of being able to move toward a mindset of unstop ability. And so we started unstoppable mindset, and we have a lot of fun with it. Well, why don't we start with your story a little bit? Why don't you tell us about you kind of growing up or anything about that that you think we ought to know?   Kelly Brakenhoff  03:12 Well, sure. Um, yeah, I'm a fan of your, your mindset, your your podcast, I think this is just the coolest thing. So like I said, just super excited to be here today. Um, I've been an ASL interpreter for more than 30 years, and an author for just over three years. So although I'm a veteran interpreter, I'm still a baby author and publisher. I learned new things every day. So I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks. I guess. I've moved around. One thing that's interesting about me as I've moved around quite a bit. I grew up in Connecticut. I've lived in Nebraska, Boston, Hawaii, Seattle. And then now we've been in Nebraska for quite a while since Austin. Last Boston, Boston. Yes.   Michael Hingson  04:01 So can you say it pack your car and have a yard? Of course.   Kelly Brakenhoff  04:07 My uncle is from South Boston and so he married my aunt who's from upstate New York and listening to the to talk was so fun. I lived with them for a summer in college. And and I just had such is such a fun time, especially if they like had a little discussion or something you know, and they they get the voices raised and they'd start going in their accent they revert.   Michael Hingson  04:35 I lived in Winthrop, Massachusetts for three years and spent some time in the in the Boston area before then and back a little bit but I love the accent but I love Massachusetts. I love New England in general. And my wife and I have a story about Mr. Connecticut. We were going there for something and And I don't even remember what it was. And we were we were traveling the right way but we were traveling a lot further than we thought we needed to to get to Mystic So ever since I've been saying that one of the things about mystic is it moves around and doesn't stay in one place. So I'm sticking   Kelly Brakenhoff  05:17 to memory of mystic is going there on probably a sixth grade field trip. And you know afterwards, the field trip they take you through the gift shop and I bought a little pewter whale. Yeah, sure. I still have it somewhere in the bookcase somewhere in my house.   Michael Hingson  05:39 We stopped at a restaurant there. The second time we went to mystic and I'm still convinced it wasn't in the same place. It was the first time we went to a restaurant and sat right along the river and watch the drawbridge coming up, which was   Kelly Brakenhoff  05:55 that is really fun. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  05:57 definitely. Yeah. We love New England. And I hope that we get a chance to go back there. I have all sorts of stories about Boston. We went I went a lot over to Daniel hall into Quincy Market and ADA Durgan. Park. Have you ever eaten there?   Kelly Brakenhoff  06:13 I have it in there. Yes, I love Faneuil Hall.   Michael Hingson  06:16 I don't know whether Durgin Park is still open. I've heard it. I've heard that it is. But I'll have to tell you. Well, I'll tell you the story about Durgan Park. It's a Durgin Park, for those who don't know, is a restaurant that if it's still there, serves food family style, and they have tables along the side. That will seat for people. But you have to have four people, if you want to sit at one of those tables. If you have three, you sit at the long tables in the middle. If you have too long tables in the middle. They're very snotty about it. In fact, waitresses and waiters are hired to be snots. It's all an act, but they're supposed to be absolutely obnoxious. They're just what some people would say the typical clothes New England style of of being, if you will, but anyway, we go into the restaurant one night, and it was me and two other people and my guide dog Holland, who is a golden retriever with the most luscious eyes in the world. And the hostess said, you know, I'm just going to let you guys sit at one of the tables for four. So she seats us and the waitress comes over. And she says what are you people doing here? You can't sit at this table. And I said, well, the host has put it put us here. No, she didn't you just snuck in here. You can't sit at this table. And she yelled at us. And we said no. We got to sit be seated here because we have a guide dog under the table. No, you don't I don't believe that. You're not going to fool me with that. You can't sit here and she just went on. Then she goes away. And she comes back and she said you can't sit here I said, look under the table. Finally she looks. There's these eyes just staring back at her. And she just melts. And the next thing we know she goes away. One of the things about Durgin Park is that they serve a when they serve prime rib. It's a huge piece of prime rib that takes the whole plate. She comes back with this plate. She said somebody didn't eat much of their prime rib. Can I give it to the dog? And oh, it was great. But it's just fun memories of all over Boston. So I'm glad you had a chance to be there. Well, enough about me in that. So you've lived all over?   Kelly Brakenhoff  08:29 We have we've moved a lot and you haven't moved a lot recently. But when when I was younger, I moved quite a bit.   Michael Hingson  08:35 Yes. What caused you to be moving around. Um, we   Kelly Brakenhoff  08:39 grew up in Connecticut. And then in high school, my parents decided my mom's from Nebraska so and my dad's from upstate New York. So when I was in high school, we moved our family moved to Nebraska. And then when my husband and I first got married, he worked for a construction company who moved us to Hawaii for five years that works. That worked. That was a great honeymoon, We'd only been married six weeks. And so that was that was a five year honeymoon. That was awesome. Our first couple of kids were born there. And we decided that we after a year or so they really didn't get to see their grandparents very often. So he decided to move back to the mainland and we made a stop first in Seattle and then we came back to Nebraska. So we've been in here for quite a while but I really enjoyed getting to experience all the different cultures and all the different places and I also have a very soft spot in my heart for New England to   Michael Hingson  09:35 Well, it's great to live in various parts of the US shows what a wonderful and just incredible country we are with all sorts of different cultures that can really blend and meld together to form what we get to experience if we only keep the culture going as as really we are the melting pot and that just makes it so Great when we get to see that,   Kelly Brakenhoff  10:01 I totally agree i Yeah.   Michael Hingson  10:04 So how old are your kids now?   Kelly Brakenhoff  10:07 They are grown up. We have four kids, three boys and one girl. And so the oldest is 21 going to be 29. And our youngest just graduated from college last year. So he's 22 in Nebraska, and Nebraska. Huskers everybody's a Husker.   Michael Hingson  10:28 Go Huskers Go Big Red. Yep.   Kelly Brakenhoff  10:31 So um, but we have four grandkids too. So that's a lot of fun. And we're really lucky. They all live in town, so I get to see them quite a bit.   Michael Hingson  10:38 That works. So you see you fix it up. So you now have this this Braden half ghetto, if you will,   Kelly Brakenhoff  10:45 yes, my Twitter handle is actually in Brockville. Because one of my friends quite a while ago used to tease me that I was trying to create my own village. So we call it in Brock anvil.   Michael Hingson  10:59 There you go, that works. Nothing wrong with that. Well, so I know you're an author. And I know that you are an ASL interpreter, and so on, tell me how you got into being involved with ASL. And a little bit more about all that.   Kelly Brakenhoff  11:16 Sure. Um, I in high school, I volunteered at a camp for deaf kids. My parents wanted me to do something in the summer and stay out of trouble. So they kind of sent me to go volunteer. And at this camp. In the end, I didn't know any sign language. So I got a book. And I started trying to figure out a few signs before I first went to this camp. Of course, the first few weeks I was there, I had no idea what anyone was saying, because they were all using sign language. And I didn't know it. But by the end of the summer, I had learned quite a bit and I had made some really good friends. And I just kept learning during the school year, when they went when they were all gone. I kept taking classes and reading more books. And it actually turned out to be my, the language that I took when I was in college, it counted as my foreign language. And I just kept learning and hanging around with Deaf people. And eventually, my mentors in ASL, the deaf people that I was friends with, invited me to try interpreting for them. And I didn't, if I had known, I wasn't very good, but they were very kind. And they they asked me to interpret so I did and it just ended up kind of something I fell into. It wasn't something I intended to do. But it's become my whole life's work, and I really like it.   Michael Hingson  12:40 So is that kind of a full time job? Or are your vocation then?   Kelly Brakenhoff  12:43 Yeah, I would say it, it's my Well, it's hard to say what's my vocation because I also really love being an author, even though I haven't been published until recently. But I've been a writer my whole life in college, I actually majored in English. And I always wanted to be a writer, it just, I guess the interpreting thing just kind of was a very long detour. But I always wrote even when I was interpreting and so in raising my family and stuff, so once my kids started getting into high school and college, and I started looking around for something to fill some of my empty hours. That was when I really got serious about finishing my first book.   Michael Hingson  13:27 Well, from from an ASL standpoint, and interpreting it certainly is something that's, that's a little bit different. What have you learned about deafness and disabilities and so on from being involved in all of that,   Kelly Brakenhoff  13:41 oh, my goodness, we don't have enough there's not enough time in the day to talk about it's just changed my whole mindset, like, like, you've talked about that. I think it's just a way of looking at the world. Like a lot of people think that people who are deaf and hard of hearing, it's about your ears being broken, but it's really just a different way to move through life. So instead of a hearing world do like they have a visual world, so everything is visual. So it's like the opposite of what you experience now. So it's, it's just a way of moving through the world, you know that. And so instead of being like broken and something that needs to be fixed, it's just kind of a way of life. I guess. I just have a lot of respect. I've worked a lot in at the University of Nebraska. So I work with a lot of college students. And I've over the years done just Gosh, 20 Something different majors. I sit in on all the classes. I interpret what the teachers seen at the front of the class, and the discussions that the students do. And so I've gotten to learn a lot of things just by osmosis over the years and I have a really deep respect for the students because you know, their classmates sitting in the same room with them, they can listen to the lecture, write notes, you know, go online and do stuff all while this is all going on, whereas the deaf student has to sit there and watch me. If they want to take their own notes, they kind of have to look down and take their own notes, but then still keep an eye on me. And then if there's a PowerPoint, they're trying to watch that. And if there's a video, they're hoping that it has good captions, and so like, there's so many things going on, that it's amazing that they can get as much as they do out of the classes. And then of course, they have to study so much more afterwards, because a lot of times, they have to go back over the notes or back over the reading to see what they missed, because they were just, you know, a lot of their attention during the class is on me. So it's just given me a really healthy respect for how intelligent and how hard workers the students are. And I've just kind of seen that in all walks of life. I've interpreted for a lot of different situations, and different businesses and all kinds of things. And I just, I'm always in awe of how, how hard workers, the deaf students and just deaf adults in their job, or   Michael Hingson  16:13 how did the students then really get the job of notetaking done? Do they oftentimes have people who take notes for them? Or are they successful enough at taking notes themselves,   Kelly Brakenhoff  16:26 it really depends on the student and their preference. You know how some people don't mind having someone else take the notes, because then they can pay more attention to the interpreter and the PowerPoint and the teacher. But then other people maybe don't, you know, when you take notes, we could listen to the same speaker and your notes would be different than mine. And so some students don't really trust that another student is going to write down the same things that they would have written down if they were taking their own notes. So it really is a personal preference. But luckily, now, with the technology, I have a couple of students who, so they're deaf, and they use ASL and they use interpreters, but they also use cart, which is the captioning service. And so they'll have a laptop, or they also use like an otter, which is an app that the teacher wears a microphone and then it, it makes a transcript of everything that the teacher has said, and then they can save it. So I have a few students who even though they're, you know, pretty much dependent on the sign language for comprehension, they still use the transcript, because then they can go back later and like highlight the parts that they thought were important. And then it's kind of I think more in their control. Or if sometimes, like an English word has, you know, five different signs for it. And so if I do a sign, and they want to know what the exact English word was, they can look at the transcript and see oh, okay, that's the word that, you know, I need to remember or that's the word that I want to know. So I think it's great that they have all these tools. Because, gosh, back in the day, when I first started, none of that existed. And a lot of times, they would just have someone else take notes for them. And if that person wasn't a good note taker, they were kind of out of luck.   Michael Hingson  18:25 We use otter actually to do the transcribing of all of these podcasts. So that one unstoppable mindset is published. There's a written transcription as well. So we use otter to do that. And oftentimes, I will use otter to transcribe a meeting, or make it possible, make it possible for for people to come into the podcast, and listen and watch if you will in real time, which makes a lot of sense. So I found that otter works really well.   Kelly Brakenhoff  19:00 Yeah, I've tried several different apps and different services, because I have a thing to like you, I really want to make my website as accessible as possible, and my appearances as accessible as possible. So I get transcripts made of all the podcasts that I do whether the provider does or not. And so I've tried several different services, and I do agree that I think otter is a it produces a good product, and the price is good, too. So   Michael Hingson  19:33 I certainly right, you're right, the price is certainly right. But also, it does a good job and it's improving over time. Some people have said they're better systems than otter and I haven't really tried other services. And the people who help with the podcasts have looked at various things and we all end up settling on otter it really works well.   Kelly Brakenhoff  19:54 That's good to know. That's good to know, because a couple of years ago I tested several and I haven't read rechecked back into it. And the last six months, it's great. I think the one of the good benefits of the pandemic has been, how everyday people have realized that speech to text. And other, just things that we used to think of as being accessible for people with disabilities are now helpful for like everyone. And people have just come to realize that with all the Zoom meetings, and all of the the work from home solutions, so things that used to be just in the realm of special are now every day and they're all getting better, because we all demand that they get better. So the AI captions and everything are so much better than they were even just a few years ago.   Michael Hingson  20:47 Well, and then look at that you bring a very good point to light, which is that oftentimes, there are things that we use, that when other people start to use them first of all makes them much, much more affordable. But also, that will cause them to improve a lot more than otherwise they would have look at Dragon Naturally Speaking that started out as Dragon Dictate and did okay. And now Dragon is a lot better. I don't think that it transcribes as well as otter does in terms of plugging in punctuations, and so on. But I'm not surprised or wouldn't be surprised if that improves over time. But when you look at what otter does, it's pretty incredible.   Kelly Brakenhoff  21:31 It is it really is. And the What's incredible to me is the the short amount of time that it's gotten better. So I think that's great. But like you said, I think I guess it's sad to me that it takes it took a pandemic for enough people to use the tools that we've all been using for years to you know, demand a higher quality and a lower price. But I guess you know, if that's one good thing that comes out of all this, and that's great.   Michael Hingson  22:02 I think we tend to just get locked in to doing things one way and we, for whatever reason tend to be very slow at looking at other options. And you're right, the pandemic has made a significant difference and look at how many people are using zoom as opposed to pre pandemic, yet, Zoom has been there. The other thing that we've noticed along the way with Zoom is that they have deliberately and absolutely focused on accessibility and inclusion. So when a person who is blind encounters a problem with zoom in something is working right. There is a process to report that and we find that very quickly, it gets resolved, because they have a whole team working on issues to make sure that Zoom continues to be very inclusive.   Kelly Brakenhoff  22:55 Yes, I agree. Because I think when we first started with Zoom, the there was no, the only way you could have captions was hiring a person to do the captions. And then once they started making them automatic and everything that that was huge. That was that was huge. That's I'm glad to hear that they have a team doing it. And I agree, their improvements have have been amazing.   Michael Hingson  23:23 I don't want to put zoom on the spot, but have you compared otter with, if you compare it to otter with the zoom, automatic closed captioning,   Kelly Brakenhoff  23:31 um, I have, I guess if I just stop and think about it, I think they're pretty similar. What's actually kind of funny is when I will do a large meeting on Zoom, where I'm one of the interpreters. So I'm one of the little heads in the Brady Bunch group of people on Zoom. So I'll interpret for some of the deaf people in the meeting. And what I'll do sometimes is I'll turn on the captions because, you know, occasionally I might have a hard time hearing someone talking, or I might miss something or whatever. And so I can look at the captions and see if you know try to correct myself or, you know, check my accuracy. And yeah, so I have seen some pretty bad interpretations on our transcript on on Zoom and on otter, where things just don't come out. Right. It's, it's definitely for people who speak like standard slow American English once you have any kind of an accent or any kind of, if you speak too quickly, then the captions pretty much everywhere are a lot harder to understand. But they like I said, I still think they've gotten a lot better, which   Michael Hingson  24:48 I only asked that just out of curiosity because I know that the service is there to do automatic transcription or captioning. And I've never, never asked anyone exactly how well it does, except I've heard that it does a good job, but I've never compared it to like otter or something. And I bought otter for teens. And the reason I did that is so that it is now set up and integrated with Zoom. So it automatically starts when I opened a Zoom meeting. And what I do usually is unless there's a need to I will stop it. But it automatically starts when I come into a meeting that I that I initiate, and that's great, because then I don't even have to think about it. And it's a an effort of volition if I want to stop it.   Kelly Brakenhoff  25:42 Oh, yeah, that's great. I didn't realize you can set it up that way. That's awesome.   Michael Hingson  25:45 Yeah, the otter for teams. Home, I think, unless the price has changed, it was like $240 a year. And if you're a nonprofit, or whatever, it's half that. So it's not even a lot of money to do it, which is what's great.   Kelly Brakenhoff  26:00 That is That's awesome. Well, thank you. So the more users that use things, then the cheaper the price for everyone. And I think that's what we're seeing now with a lot of these tools.   Michael Hingson  26:12 It is ironic that we have to go through something like a pandemic to see things become more available, and for people to start to see that maybe some of the tools that say a person who is blind or low vision, or a person who is deaf or hard of hearing uses might very well be relevant for the rest of us. I'm still amazed that in driving with people using cell phones, we don't find more automatic use of the verbal technology voiceover for Apple and talkback on an Android, I'm surprised that we don't see more use of those verbal systems. In the driving experience, there's no reason not to do that, and do more to keep people's eyes on the road. Unfortunately, we're going the other way, we're getting more driving experiences with touchscreens, which means somebody's got to watch the screen, or look down and then quickly look back at the road. Why should that even have to happen today? Because we have such good voice technology. And we can also have good voice input technology to go along with it.   Kelly Brakenhoff  27:21 That's an excellent point. That's, that's so true. Yes, there's definitely you know, all the fancy touchscreens. But when I got my latest car, I had to sit in the driveway with the owner's manual for an hour just to figure out how to reprogram the clock. So you definitely don't want to be doing any of that while you're on the road. Well,   Michael Hingson  27:42 if you and I, I love Tesla's and I think that the technology is great, it is demonstrating the state of the art technology that's out there. But it's all controlled by a touchscreen, which means a blind passenger, I can't even do what a passenger would do to tune the radio or turn on a podcast or turn on whatever the services are available, much less anything else, because it's all touchscreen. And there's no reason for that today, we should be able to keep people's eyes more on the road. Even if you have the Tesla copilot function, which can take over a good part of the driving experience. It's not an autonomous vehicle software, but it can help with the driving experience. People should be keeping their eyes on the road not watching a touchscreen. And I'm still amazed that we're not seeing more people recognize the value of audio input and output.   Kelly Brakenhoff  28:36 I did not realize that I wrote in my first Tesla just a few months ago, and it was really neat, but I didn't I guess I just assumed that they had voice input things. I mean, wow, that's that's really shocking. as fancy as that whole system is that is very surprising. Well, let me let me rephrase that Ilan and say, hey,   Michael Hingson  28:59 well, let me rephrase it a little bit. There is availability of voice input for some things, but it's not an automatic process. So you have to invoke it, then you have to do something, I think to make it work every time you want to use it. What I'm saying is, it should be as much a part of the driving experience as anything else. And I'm saying it should be more part of the driving experience than using a touchscreen, it should be automatic. And we don't do that. We're too young to eyesight and we think that eyesight is the only game in town. Just like I'm sure that people who are deaf and hard of hearing would say that most people think that hearing is the only game in town. And in the in reality is neither is true. Exactly. I've said for years that I've said for years that people with disability, well, people who have eyesight, have their own disability and that is their light dependent. They can't do things without light Thomas Edison as the Americans with Disabilities Back would define it developed a reasonable accommodation for light dependent people when he created the light bulb. Let's get real, and I and I don't have the stitches. Lee it's true. You know, it's it's unfortunate that people are so locked into doing things one way that they're missing opportunities to make driving safer. But there you go.   Kelly Brakenhoff  30:22 I love that. I love that idea. I love that idea. I think that should be used to make that a thing as a political movement. I love that.   Michael Hingson  30:31 Yeah, well, we got to get Elon to go along with it.   Kelly Brakenhoff  30:34 Well, you know, he's kind of busy with Twitter right now. So maybe that all wrapped up, then he can he can focus his brain power on this?   Michael Hingson  30:43 Well, once he gets it set up, and if he's gonna do Twitter, then we'll start doing tweets. Oh, there you go. There you go. What a world we live in right now. So you said that you've done a lot of writing, you've been very much involved in writing, since college and so on. Why do you like writing so much?   Kelly Brakenhoff  31:07 Honestly, I don't know. I think it's just how I think how I process things. It's communication, talking to people talking to people like you. That's just kind of how I think it's just, just what I do is is who I am. That's a pretty simple answer.   Michael Hingson  31:26 We'll put Hey, it works. It works. So you said you just pretty recently got involved in starting to actually write books?   Kelly Brakenhoff  31:36 Yeah, I think it was 2014. I joined NaNoWriMo for the first time, which for people who haven't heard of that, it stands for National Novel Writing Month, and it's in November, where, gosh, by this day, by last year, I think it was around 750,000 people around the world, try to write 16 167 words a day for 30 days, and you come up with a 50,000 word manuscript by the end of the month. And that was signing up for that challenge was because I'm kind of competitive. So if I sign up for a challenge like that, I'm gonna do it. So that was like the thing that broke the barrier for me of just having ideas and just wanting to write and whatever and actually finishing a manuscript for the first time. That's what kind of gave me that push to actually do it.   Michael Hingson  32:33 So what did you publish your own books? Are they published through a publisher or what?   Kelly Brakenhoff  32:38 Yes, they are. They're self published, I tried for about a year to publish my firt, or to find an agent and all of that for my first one. And then at the same time, I was also checking into self publishing. And I don't know I think just a lot of factors kind of all converged. And I just decided at the end that self publishing was was the way to go. I'm kind of a control freak. And I like to, I like to have the my input into how to make you know, I hire my whole team. So I have an editor and a cover designer and and proofreaders and all of that stuff. And I get to decide what the finished product ends up to be. And it turns out that, yeah, I'm kind of bossy I guess.   Michael Hingson  33:23 You have a publicist who helps with the PR, and all that. I do.   Kelly Brakenhoff  33:27 I do. It's a it's called creative edge is the one that I use. And, and they've really, I've really enjoyed being part of that group.   Michael Hingson  33:37 I met Mickey a couple of months ago, actually, for the first time, he was introduced to me by someone else that we interviewed on the unstoppable mindset podcast. And she said, you know, he works with a lot of authors who might very well have interesting stories for you. And so that's how we met him. And we've actually started working with him as well. We're just getting started. But having written thunder dog, which was, and we're blessed by the fact that it was a number one New York Times bestseller, and then was published by Thomas Nelson part of HarperCollins. Now, but then we self published our second book, which was called running with Roselle, which was kind of more for youth, but more adults by it than then kids do. And it's the story of me growing up and Rozelle growing up. And then how we met after she became a guide dog in training, and she became my guide dog, and you know, kind of went from there, but I love writing, but I haven't done that much of it. We are starting to work on a third book, and that'll be a lot of fun. And we just got a book contract for that as well. So that's pretty exciting.   Kelly Brakenhoff  34:46 That's great. Congratulations. I didn't know that. That's awesome.   Michael Hingson  34:51 But But I'm curious. You've written I guess basically what two different kinds of books children's books and mysteries. How do you do mystery How do you come up with a plot? And how do you? Do you make it all come together? Because I think mystery writing has to be if you do it well, it has to be a real challenge to come up with a not only a plot, but create all of the scenes, do all the things that you need to do. And essentially, keep the solution hidden until the end of the book unless there's some value in presenting that earlier. And it's really how you get there.   Kelly Brakenhoff  35:30 Yeah, that's a funny question. Because I definitely write in extremes. I mean, I write 70,000, word mysteries, and then I write 500, word picture books for the children's books. So very different, very different approaches. But yeah, the mysteries and thrillers are kind of the things that I have always read my whole life. So I thought when I wanted to do that first NaNoWriMo challenge, I decided to kind of mash up all of my experiences. Like I said, I've lived in Hawaii and Nebraska, the East Coast, Seattle. So I kind of took all of those different elements working at a college and I put them all together into this murder mystery. And I got about two thirds of the way through and realized exactly what you said that writing a mystery is hard. It's actually one of I think, the most difficult genres to do because exactly for the reason you said, you want to make that mystery puzzle complicated enough that it can't be solved too early. Mystery readers are very smart people. And so it's very challenging coming up with enough suspects and clues to keep people guessing until the end. I guess I just love a challenge. I think it's it's fun, but it's also just what I love to read and write. So a read so it was kind of the most natural thing to write.   Michael Hingson  36:59 I think you just hit on it. Essentially. mysteries are puzzles and puzzles are as good as it gets. Who are your favorite mystery writers?   Kelly Brakenhoff  37:10 Oh, I have so many.   Michael Hingson  37:12 Yeah, me too. Yeah.   Kelly Brakenhoff  37:15 I think like my, you know, the ones I kind of grew up with was like Sue Grafton. So that letter A is for those Jana Ivanovic. There's Stephanie Plum Siri   Michael Hingson  37:27 plum. Hey, come on. We all love diesel, but that's another story.   Kelly Brakenhoff  37:30 Oh, yeah, diesel's awesome, too. Well, I'm sure being you live. You said you live in New Jersey, right? Oh, yes. Yeah. So you're very familiar with tenants. Definitely. Trenton definitely fun. And then I also just love like John Grisham and James Patterson and Michael Connelly. I mean, gosh, I just, that's all. I haven't really met very many mysteries that I didn't like.   Michael Hingson  37:54 Yeah. My my favorite still is Rex Stout with the neuro wolf series. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they I've never solved any of his books before the end. And I worked at it. I love Mary Higgins Clark. But I was able to basically figure out all of the, the mean people in that before the end of the book, still, they were fun to read   Kelly Brakenhoff  38:20 is fun, right? I mean, as long as it's a good story, even if guests are having an idea of did it by the end, as long as the character still keep you in it. And a lot of times this setting is kind of a character to then I don't mind, you know, reading to the end to confirm that I was right. I think what's funny since I became a writer, and I don't know, you can tell me if this is true for yourself. But since I became a writer, an author, I kind of ruined for reading, like I read a lot. But I read now to learn and to see what when I read a really good book, I love to pick it apart and and see why it's good. And not just the structure of it. But like if I if that paragraph was beautiful, I'll go back and read that paragraph several times and try to figure out what is so great about that paragraph, or when someone throws a twist or a turn in or I thought I knew who it was. And then at the end, I find out it was someone else. I just love that. That thrill of like, oh, you fooled me, you know, and I really like to think about all of that. But that means that a lot of times I'm not really enjoying the book. I'm like studying the book. And so I have found that if if I really get so sucked into a book that I am not doing that, that means that it's a really, really good book because if it took me out of my analysis into just enjoying it, then that's a me that's the mark of a very good book.   Michael Hingson  39:53 Sue Graf passed away from cancer did her last book ever get published? Because I don't think she finished it, did she?   Kelly Brakenhoff  39:59 It did not odds are one of those.   Michael Hingson  40:01 Zero Yeah,   Kelly Brakenhoff  40:03 yeah. The sad things. Is it never it's, it's not finished. I don't even know how far she got in it. But it wasn't finished enough to be published. Yeah,   Michael Hingson  40:12 yeah, I guess that's kind of what happened. But her mysteries were definitely some of the best. And we read them all. And some twice, which is always fun if I if I want to read a book a second time. And I don't have that many hours in the day that that's easy to do. But if I want to read a book a second time, then I know that there is something about it that I must have enjoyed. And we read here, a lot of books on audio, audible and other sources. The reason we do is that instead of watching TV, we pipe books through the house, my wife has learned to listen to audio. So we listen to books together. What I've been occasionally finding are editor mistakes where they said something and then later on referring back something, they say something different. Somebody messed up in editing it, and I don't see it often. But I do occasionally see it and I always find them. Which is a fun.   Kelly Brakenhoff  41:15 It is it's i It's funny, because, you know, even though my books are self published, I work really hard not to have those kinds of errors. Yeah, they go through an editor, at least one editor, numerous BETA readers, numerous proofreaders. And then, you know, six months after I published it all open it up, and I see a typo. And it's like, at first I used to get so frustrated at that. And then now I saw something one time on Facebook, it was like, cheers to you, you typo you made it through three rounds of editing, 10 proofreaders and you still made it you you go, you know,   Michael Hingson  41:58 I when I was in college, we used in freshman and sophomore physics, a series of books called the Berkeley physics series, because it came out of there. And I had a dorm mate, who looked in detail at every single book, looking for a mistake, because he said a lot of books, there are editing mistakes. And he said he finally found one in one of the Berkeley physics books, but he said it was so fun looking just to see any error. And he couldn't find them in the Berkeley physics series. It was just incredible that he spent that time. On the other hand, he was an excellent student. So I guess he learned from it as he was reading.   Kelly Brakenhoff  42:43 Have a niece who's a doctor and they actually some textbook company paid her. I don't know if she just got free books. Or if she actually got paid her last year of med school, they they paid her to go through the as she was going through the textbook to note down any errors that she found.   Michael Hingson  43:03 See, it's always good to to read as much as possible and proofread as much as possible. And you're right. There's nothing like a good editor to help.   Kelly Brakenhoff  43:12 Right, exactly, exactly.   Michael Hingson  43:14 So how hard was it to write your first mystery? Oh, must have a lot   Kelly Brakenhoff  43:22 of courage. And it was a lot of it was a lot of I think I must have gone through 10 or 15 jobs. It took me five years to finish it, it was ugly, there was a lot of tears. But you know, you just learned so much I kind of consider it like getting a master's degree. I just did it at home with my, my own process. But you know, I just had to learn a lot. You have to be humble, you have to be willing to accept criticism and advice from other people. But I feel like it taught me a lot. And of course, then the second book teaches you even more and the third and you know, each one you do, I think you just learn more, either about yourself or about writing. I'd love to read books about writing craft and how to do better. You know, I want every single book that I write to be better than the last. I think most authors are that way.   Michael Hingson  44:15 They get easier the more you write. That's a   Kelly Brakenhoff  44:18 funny question, because I'm right in the middle of writing my fourth mystery right now. And I've been stalled for quite a while. And what it's taught me is just about myself and my process and what I thought my process was versus what I'm finding. I thought I could speed it up, but it's actually making me slow down. So that means that I was not speeding it up correctly. If that makes sense.   Michael Hingson  44:46 Yeah. Well, and I don't know whether it becomes easier or not. I have been very blessed when we did thunder dog. I had someone to collaborate and help with it Susie Florrie And that happened because she actually found Me, because she was writing a book called Dawn tales, which was 17 stories about dogs who had stories. And she wanted to include Roselle in that. And she did. But as we discussed my story, she said, You should really write a book. And so we got started down that road. And I met her agent who became my agent, Chip McGregor on thunder dog. And we, we had a good time and collaborated well. And I think that there was a lot of value in that for me, because I know that I don't have the writing experience as such. But I know what's good when I read it. And I also know that I can add value. So we really had a very collaborative process of writing thunder dog, a lot of it is hers, and a lot of it is mine directly. And we blended the two which was great. Now with the third book that we're getting, which is getting ready to do, which is going to talk about fear and controlling fear and people learning that they can overcome fear and not let it blind them, if you will, to being able to make decisions. The working title is a guide dogs Guide to Being brave, and I'm doing that with a friend of Susie's Carrie, Carrie Wyatt can't. Because Suzy is in a Ph. D. program. Yeah, we love the title. We'll see what the publisher does. We've got a contract for it. We'll see what the publisher does with it over time. But so far everybody likes it. That was a carry creation, because I was going to call it blinded by fear, which was more accurate in some senses. But I think a guide dogs Guide to Being brave is a lot better title.   Kelly Brakenhoff  46:35 Yeah, it reminds me of that one. Is it the Art of Racing in the Rain? Yeah, yeah, it kind of reminds me of something like that, where it's it's a little off of what the theme of the book is, but it's still engaging, and it makes you want to know more about it.   Michael Hingson  46:54 It was a good book. And so   Kelly Brakenhoff  46:57 you said something that really resonated with me, you said, I know, it's good when I read it. And I think that's a big obstacle for beginning writers. And is that usually, if you're a writer, you're a reader first. And so I've read tons and tons of great books, and I know what great literature is, and I know what a great story is. And then when I write my first one, it's not very good. So you kind of have that, that huge gap between what you know is good and what you've produced. And so it's, it's, it's hard, you have to overcome that, that feeling of, of my stuff is really bad, you know, and then you have to work really hard to make it as good as, as you want it to be, you know, as good as it is to be able to actually share with the world, you know, to get up to that level of what your your bar is the bar that you've set. And so I think that's something that stands it's a barrier to a lot of people. And that's where I think a good editor comes. Yeah.   Michael Hingson  48:05 Yeah. Well look at John Grisham. You mentioned earlier the first book he wrote If I recall was a time to kill but it was the third one published the first one that he wrote, and it was published was the firm and then I'm trying to remember what the second one was. Was it the Pelican Brief the Pelican Brief right? And then A Time to Kill, which was the Jake Brigantes initiator, if you will. But if you look at all of them, you can see how the the books evolved over time in his writing style. So it's it is a natural progression. And I mentioned Rex Stout, a Nero Wolf, if you go back and read fair to Lance, which was his first book, and you compare it with especially much later writings, you can see changes, but you can see where everything is starting from and you get engaged in in fact, fair Lance was not the first mirror wolf book I read. by a longshot. It wasn't the first, but having gone back and read it. Even though everyone in the book all the characters developed a fair amount and since then, and his writing style improved. It was engaging. Mm hmm. Well, tell me about your mystery series,   Kelly Brakenhoff  49:26 sir. Um, it's about a college administrator named Cassandra Sato and she lives in Hawaii. She gives up her her life in Hawaii to move to Nebraska because she wants to accept her dream job at a tiny college called Morton college in the middle of nowhere in Nebraska. And she and her eventual goal is to become a college administrators or college president. So she thinks this is you know, the Path is gonna get her there. But of course, moving from Hawaii to Nebraska is a very, very large cultural, cultural shift. And so she encounters all kinds of problems, discrimination, barriers, everything. And a few months into her job, a student turns up dead on campus and see has to be part of the group of people who figures out what happened to the student and then find justice.   Michael Hingson  50:28 Yeah, come on. Cassandra really did. And she's been hiding a whole series. Yeah, that's   Kelly Brakenhoff  50:33 the end of the series. It was Cassandra.   Michael Hingson  50:35 That will come later on about the hundreds book, right. That's awesome. When Karen and my wife and I are talking about who did it in various books, we, we usually do things like that. We've been reading a lot of the JE NACHA as well, we read a chance to but the JD Robb books, the in depth series, have you read those. And so I read very many of those now, we we oftentimes will spin a story how Eve Dallas really did it. Or Roark did it and had just a lot of fun with it. But again, a great series of books is there's a lot of sex in those books, but they're still taking Ross. Yeah, they're great mysteries.   Kelly Brakenhoff  51:20 Yeah, a lot of times people like the ones that I write well, obviously, I have four kids and grandkids. And my kids would cringe if I if they had to read a sex scene that I wrote. So, you know, my kids were like, high school and college age when I started writing. So I decided all the sex in my books, there's gonna be behind closed doors, and yeah, nobody, nobody wants to have their mom. Yeah, no.   Michael Hingson  51:46 I've, I've talked to several authors who say that who, one who said I would never any more, I would never let my daughter or my wife, wife read the books, or I changed the sex so that they could read them. But the value of having them read them as they're great critics, and so it's worthwhile. But yeah, it is fun to to see how people react. But, you know, a mystery. Doesn't need to have all the violence thrown at you right out in the open, which is why puzzles are so great. At James Patterson tends to be a little bit more violent, but not nearly as violent as he could be. So we we've always enjoyed Of course, the Alex Cross series.   Kelly Brakenhoff  52:33 Yeah, it's there's such a huge variety in Yeah, the violence level and all that stuff. I myself, I have a pretty vivid imagination. I don't really need people to spell some of that stuff out for me. My mysteries are technically like cozy mysteries, which kind of means that there's no like blood on the page. There's no swearing, there's no sex. So like, even you know, high school kids can read them and, and that kind of thing. So I guess that's just, I just write what I like. So that's only because I like to read. So that's what I like to write.   Michael Hingson  53:12 Come on. That's only because Cassandra is trying to hide everything, but we know the truth.   Kelly Brakenhoff  53:18 That's right. She's really Voldemort.   Michael Hingson  53:21 Yeah, she's really Voldemort. Speaking of another good series of books   Kelly Brakenhoff  53:28 that's that's a whole different ballgame.   Michael Hingson  53:30 But but you know, looking at the Harry Potter books, again is another one where going from Book One through Book Seven, just how it evolved. And they're so fun.   Kelly Brakenhoff  53:42 They are they're definitely one of my I, I like all genres. So yeah, I loved Harry Potter Lord of the Rings, Narnia. I mean, you name it, it's I thought during the pandemic that I would just read all day every day but it turns out I actually have to do other stuff too.   Michael Hingson  53:59 So I hate it when that happens.   Kelly Brakenhoff  54:02 There is no laundry fairy I hate to be the person to tell you this but there is no laundry fairy,   Michael Hingson  54:07 I haven't found one either. And I get to do the clothes washing at our house which is fine. So for me, I love the brainless activities on Sunday. So there are three tasks that well for that I do on Sundays. It starts with doing the laundry or starting the laundry. Another is we I take the cat box out we use a litter called litter one it's not sand, it's all pine kernels. And you buy them and they come in a disposable box. So we just use in different new box every week. And it's about the same as using regular sand that you buy in the in the store. But at the end of the week, you just throw the whole box out and put a new one up and the cat is very demanding when it comes time to change the box. So that happens on Sunday. I take the trash out on Sunday. And then we have a little If we do get housecleaning help during the week, Karen's in wheelchairs, he has been in a chair her whole life. So it's kind of hard for us to do some of those things. So we do have a housekeeper that comes on Thursdays, in fact, and today's Thursday. So Jeanette is here, but we have a robot vacuum and I do the vacuuming again on Sunday with the robot in our bedroom, because that's also where Alamo my guide dog sleeps. So we get all those. So those are my four tasks on Sunday. And they're they're all pretty brainless in a sense. So I can read while they're going on, which is fun. And Karen is a quilter. So she's usually in sewing. And and she's reading the same thing I read. So it's a question right now, who finishes which JD Robb book first?   Kelly Brakenhoff  55:44 Yeah, that is definitely the the good thing about audiobooks is being able to multitask on some of those things that you don't have to pay so much attention to.   Michael Hingson  55:54 Tell me about your dupe the deaf dog ASL series.   Kelly Brakenhoff  55:58 Well, that is the second series that I started after I finished the mystery novels, I kind of had a moment where I realized that I, you know, I started my own publishing company. And I just had a thought, I mean, it's kind of cliche, it was actually a dream that just came to me of like, what I could do with this publishing company, if I just kind of unleashed it. And so I came up with the idea of, of this orange, English spaniel dog who is deaf and all of the people in his or all of his family can hear. And so it's just about different experiences that he has as the only person in a family of hearing people, and trying to get deaf and hard of hearing children to see themselves and their everyday life experiences on our pages of our books. But I also want kids who can hear to understand what it's like to hear differently. We just finished the third book, and I'm actually actually we just finished the fourth book, the third book just came out. But the fourth book is in production right now. And I had no idea when it started, what it was going to end up being but it's actually turned out to be more successful. And I would say even more fun than my mysteries, the mysteries are kind of like my thing that I enjoy. As far as, like you said, creating the puzzle and, and the challenge of it, but the Duke, the deaf dog ASL series, is kind of what I feel like I'm taking my 30 Whatever years of interpreting and hanging around with really cool Deaf people, and then like sharing that with the world.   Michael Hingson  57:49 So it's not a mystery series.   Kelly Brakenhoff  57:53 No, it is not. They are picture books. So they're only like less than 500 words. And each one is a different situation that do gets into so there's like a different message. And each one more than 90% of children who are born deaf or hard of hearing have parents that can hear I did a lot of research to before I started the books, and there's very few books for young children that have deaf and hard of hearing characters. Once you get into like high school age, or even beyond, there's more books that have deaf and hard of hearing characters. But at the kindergarten, first grade age, there's very few books. And you know, my kids had lots and lots of choices of books to read. So I feel like deaf kids did have lots and lots of choices, books that have characters like them in there. So each book has a different message like the first one was called nevermind. And the message is that everyone deserves to be included in conversations. I mean, how many times do we tell people nevermind when they ask us to repeat ourselves? Or maybe we have, like a older parent or spouse who doesn't hear well, or even like someone who's just a little bit slower to act, or to understand a lot of times we just get impatient and say forget it. I'll explain later. And this book like after I published that first book, I've had so many deaf people come up to me and tell me stories of times when they've been told nevermind. And they thanked me for sharing their stories because they want hearing people to understand how hurtful those words are and what it feels to be left out. So I have a pretty long list of situations I've seen throughout the years that I plan to incorporate into the books and I I'm only stopped by my amount of time and and money to hire illustrators at this point.   Michael Hingson  59:55 Back to mysteries. Of course there's the cat who series Lily and Jackson Brown and also Rita Mae Brown and sneaky pie Brown. But in thinking of the cat who books, why not have a Duke, the Duke, the deaf dog series, solving mysteries, and also deal with all the frustrations that Duke has of trying to get his humans to listen? And how he has to figure things out, not being in a hearing world himself.   Kelly Brakenhoff  1:00:27 Yeah, that's a good thought. I'm actually like I said, I have so many ideas that it's really limited by my time and money, but um, the picture books are more like so Duke's a dog. Right? It's more like he's like a pitbull, like, they stand on their hind legs. And they kind of like even his dad wears like a tie. So they kind of are like human, but they're dogs. But it's a nice way to be able to show diversity and like breeds of dogs and colors of dogs and abilities and body types and stuff without actually having like different children in there. So it's kind of like, like, I don't know, if you remember the Mercer Mayer series, little critter. That's kind of what I thought of, as I   Michael Hingson  1:01:13 was able to read them. Yeah,   Kelly Brakenhoff  1:01:15 that was like my, my model, I guess of who I thought of it's like, so Duke is more just like a character, a fictional character. But I do have a couple of other ideas for series for like middle grade age kids. And those would be mysteries, and those would use some characters. I have a couple of young characters in the Cassandra Sacco series. I did a Halloween short story last year called scavenger hunt. And that two of the main characters in there were 10 year old kids. And so I think I want to do a separate series with them and have those be mysteries because I agree, I think I can incorporate a lot of the things that I know about the Deaf community and Deaf culture and ASL into a mystery, and they get kind of fun that way. And   Michael Hingson  1:02:05 it's great that you're using this opportunity to teach people more about deaf and hard of hearing. And not only as a culture, but as just as much an included an inclusive part of society as everyone else. I am concerned when you're talking about do looking like a character and looking a little bit like people. I just don't want to see a new book coming out about do the deaf dog ASL series goes to Animal Farm just saying. But Duly noted. So So you you did one of your books. As a Kickstarter campaign?   Kelly Brakenhoff  1:02:43 We did. Um, the the most recent one that just published in January, I did my first Kickstarter campaign.   Michael Hingson  1:02:51 Now why did you do that? What brought Kickstarter into it.   Kelly Brakenhoff  1:02:54 I went to this conference last fall in Las Vegas, and I met some authors who publish their books first on Kickstarter, before they release them more widely and other stores. And listening to them made me realize that Kickstarter might be a good way for me to reach new readers. The nice thing about Kickstarter, which I think you said that you've supported a couple of campaigns, honestly, before I had gone to this conference, I did not think starter was something I needed to do, I hadn't really gone on there, I hadn't pledged sponsored anybody else's project. So I just kind of went into it blindly. But I realized that the cool thing about Kickstarter is you get to develop a direct relationship with people who want to buy your product. So in my case, it's a book, but I've gone on there. And since then, I've supported all kinds of different projects. I've done a board game, and a coloring book and a purse. And I mean, there's so many neat, creative ideas that people come up with and put them on Kickstarter, just to see. So then the the customers can come on and pledge money towards that product and say, Yes, I think that's a great idea. The world needs that. And I'm willing to plunk down my money to pre order that thing that you want to make. And so if enough of those people say that they'll pre order the product, then the project is successful, and it funds and then the person who listed the project goes ahead and makes it. So that's been really exciting. But you have this direct relationship where the creator is sending you messages and keeping you updated on the progress like, okay, you know, we're finished in publishing, you know, in the case of publishing, you say, Okay, we finished the illustration and we're waiting for them to be printed and then I actually personally boxed everything up and mailed them to the people with personal note and some extra stickers and everything. So I think I'd really enjoy that contact with people and that communication because it goes both ways, then people can actually respond to me. If I just sell stuff on Amazon or in the local bookstore, I don't really know who buys my, my books. And so the Kickstarter has been a really cool way to just kind of, I guess, learn more about what people want and what people like about them. And it's kind of a neat way to have this direct relationship. It made me I funded my first project successfully, we raised $2,500, which was enough money to buy some hardcover books. In the past, I haven't been able to afford doing those books, as a small publishers. So it's great to be able to order those books and get those into people's hands they came with, they're very well done on nice thick paper with really vivid color illustrations. And then there's photos on each page of different ASL signs. And the photos are really clear. So it was definitely worth I guess, the experience. So I'm actually going to be doing another one in July for the, for the next Duke book. But as a person, like you said, you you have a contract to do your next book. And so you get a lot of times authors will get paid in advance, this is kind of almost the same thing where I'm making this idea. And then I'm, like pre paying some of the costs that it cost to produce the book, like, you know, the illustrating, or the printing, or all the different things that are associated with making the book, it's like a way for me to almost get like an advance except this directly coming from the customers instead of from the publishing company.   Michael Hingso

The protestors wearing black shirts that read "change the name," marched from Quincy Market to Faneuil Hall with some turning their backs on it. WBZ's Karyn Regal reports.

Adam, Logan, and Jessy sit down with Politico's Lisa Kashinsky, the author of the Massachusetts Playbook. Logan talks to her about the state of local news, Jessy asks what it is like to go through the motions of writing a story, and Adam asks about the state of the upcoming elections of Massachusetts. ALSO: Adam and Lisa get into a heated conversation about MMMMmac and Cheese, the hottest spot in all of Quincy Market. All that and more on this thrilling episode of The Cod Cabin!

Welcome to the Instant Trivia podcast episode 185, where we ask the best trivia on the Internet. Round 1. Category: Union Labels 1: The DGA, this guild, gives awards for achievement in commercials as well as feature films. Directors Guild of America. 2: Arturo Rodriguez heads the UFW, this union once led by Cesar Chavez. United Farm Workers. 3: The NALC, National Association of these, says its members each deliver 41.5 tons of mail a year. Letter Carriers. 4: 1.3 million strong, the AFSCME is the American Federation of State, County and these employees. Municipal. 5: The ILA, the union of these "men", is headquartered near the Hudson on NYC's Battery Place. Longshoremen. Round 2. Category: Illegalities 1: On Jan. 12, 1998 NYC mayor Giuliani announced he'd crack down on these pedestrian miscreants. Jaywalkers. 2: Anti-gang laws target this, defined as hanging around or moving too slowly. Loitering. 3: This adjective often found before "exposure" means the exposer knows others can see. Indecent. 4: From the same root as consecration, this opposite term is sometimes done to flags. Desecration. 5: In 1931 Al Capone got 11 years not for murder or bootlegging but for this. Tax evasion. Round 3. Category: Name The Olympic Sport 1: Shorts,10 or 12-ounce gloves,protective headgear. boxing. 2: Landing area,crossbar,long flexible staff. pole vault. 3: A sled weighing no more than 50 pounds,a steep hill,nerves of steel. luge. 4: 2 teams of 6,an over 7-foot-high net. volleyball. 5: Floor area,bodysuit,a ball, a hoop or a ribbon. rhythmic gymnastics. Round 4. Category: Shopping U.s.a. 1: Elvis Presley Enterprises owns several gift shops in this city; they're all close to Graceland. Memphis. 2: Rumors on Royal Street in this city specializes in hand-crafted Mardi Gras masks. New Orleans. 3: This Las Vegas hotel-casino is known for its Appian Way plaza shops as well as its Forum shops. Caesars Palace. 4: J. Crew picked this city's South Street Seaport as the site for its first retail store, opened in 1989. New York City. 5: Now a trendy shopping area, this marketplace near Boston's Faneuil Hall dates from 1826. Quincy Market. Round 5. Category: The President Who Said... 1: "Let us never negotiate out of fear, but let us never fear to negotiate". John F. Kennedy. 2: "The ballot is stronger than the bullet". Lincoln. 3: In his first address to Congress: "All I have I would have given gladly not to be standing here today". Lyndon Johnson. 4: "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe". Gerald Ford. 5: "It must be a peace without victory... Only a peace between equals can last". Wilson. Thanks for listening! Come back tomorrow for more exciting trivia!

The coterie encounters unexpected dangers while riding the subway beneath Boston on their way to meet Arabella Rowlands in Quincy Market.Content Warning: Language, smoking, nightmares, death, the molasses flood of 1919Storyteller: Lex LopezBritta: Rebecca SteigelfestJohnny: Garrett GabbeyMiles: Tim DavisNeil: Rob MuirheadWynn: Erika WebbFacebook: Facebook.com/PathofNightPodcastTwitter: @PathofNightPodEmail: pathofnightpodcast@gmail.com

Guest Info/Bio: This week I welcome Ryan David Green & Cameron Hood of the band Ryanhood. Named 'Best Group/Duo' in 2014 International Acoustic Music Awards, acoustic duo Ryanhood began as street-performers at Boston's Quincy Market. It was there that they were spotted by a college booking agent and thrust into the college touring scene, where Campus Activities Magazine would name them "one of the most requested acts by college buyers all across the country." They've since gone on to perform more than a thousand shows in 45 U.S. states over the past decade, and have shared stages with Jason Mraz, Matt Nathanson, Train, and many more. Guest Links:www.ryanhood.com YouTube: https://youtube.com/user/RyanhoodVideosTwitter: @ryanhoodInstagram: @RyanhoodMusicFacebook: @RyanhoodMusic Enjoy the songs on this episode? Songs featured were: "Under the Leaves, Wide Awake in a Dream, and The Fight" from the album, Under the Leaves & "I Didn't Put Anything Into Your Place" from the album, After Night Came Sun. You can find Ryanhood's must on iTunes, Amazon, Spotify, YouTube, or anywhere good music is sold!This episode was mixed and produced by Nicolas Rowe and edited by John Williamson. Keep up with all the latest at www.thedeconstructionists.com Go there to read our blog, connect with us on social media, stream episodes, or join our Patreon family. Website design by Ryan BattlesAll photos by Jared HevronLogos designed by Joe Ernst & Stephen PfluigT-shirt designs by Joseph Ernst, Chad Flannigan, Colin Rigsby, and Jason Turner. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/the-deconstructionists/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Cameron Hood and Ryan David Green, better known as critically acclaimed musical duo Ryanhood join the show. Named “Best Group/Duo” in the 2014 International Acoustic Music Awards, the musical duo got their first break more than a decade ago as street performers at Boston's Quincy Market. Since then, they have performed more than a thousand shows and shared the stages with contemporaries like Jason Mraz, Matt Nathanson, Train, and many more. Join us as Cameron and Ryan walk us through the making of their outstanding new album 'Under The Leaves' OUT NOW, their high school days, touring and much more. And stay tuned for an exclusive performance that will leave you breathless. For more on Ryanhood, visit: www.ryanhood.com

We think what makes our conversations interesting is the face-to-face we always have and actually required at one point.  We used to say no to virtual conversations.  But we aren’t idiots, as far as you know, and we are still chatting with our guests virtually because of the evil COVID, and while we are not fans, we still at least get to talk with great musicians who turn out to be great people as well. Two fellas who fall into those two descriptions are Paul Wright and Tim Harrington from the band Tall Heights.Like many, Paul and Tim, or Tim and Paul, depending on who you ask, began their musical journey by busking on the streets of Boston. They soon left the harsh Quincy Market streets for the road, which they now ride in luxury on The Spirit of Beverly, which you will hear about shortly.These guys from Sturbridge – not to be confused with Stockbridge - are road warriors and luckily, they were able to almost finish a tour before COVID hit.  I talked with them about what they’ve been doing lately including their Tall Heights Backyard Tour, their fan sing-along, and a lot of other things.  We don’t want to ruin the surprise.

Preservation Planner Lynn Smiledge talks about the history of Quincy Market, and how and when it was constructed. Quincy Market has always been used as a marketplace in Boston and it remains one today, though more like a tourist mall and less like a food market. When it was originally built, it sat on the harbor's edge in Boston. As the harbor was filled in with landfill, a community grew around the marketplace.

Preservation Planner Lynn Smiledge discusses the urban renewal of Quincy Market.

Lynn Smiledge discusses the redevelopment of the Quincy Market area.

Ever wanted to try street performing? Although Kayla is clearly an expert after her one street show (sarcasm), Felice Ling and Cate Flaherty are regular performers at Boston’s Faneuil Hall. You may know Quincy Market for the shopping and food. It’s also a hot spot for the best of the best street performers; it’s no… Continue reading 069-Street Performing Experts Felice Ling and Cate Flaherty

En este episodio de elviajeroaccidental vamos a recorrer una buena parte de la costa este de EEUU. La parte más populosa y urbana. Primero reseñamos dos libros para entrar en el ambiente de la costa este, “Las aventuras de Kavalier y Clay” de Michael Chabon, una crónica fantástica del Nueva York de los años 30 y 40. Y después “Ventanas de Manhattan” de Antonio Muñoz Molina, una de sus joyas habituales. Y a partir de ahí un recorrido en coche por las grandes ciudades de la costa este: Boston, Nueva York, Filadelfia, Baltimore y Washington. Visitaremos lo conocido y lo menos conocido de estas grandes urbes. En Boston la historia de la revolución frente a los ingleses, pero también las zonas menos conocidas donde perderse y disfrutar de la cocina de las comunidades inmigrantes y locales (Little Italy, Quincy Market). En Nueva York un recorrido por una zona menos conocida, el Meat Packing District y el High Line. A Filadelfia iremos para conocer los sitios históricos de la independencia americana como el Liberty Hall, pero también su arquitectura afrancesada y edificios singulares. Baltimore nos mostrará los brutales contrastes de las ciudades norteamericanas. Y Washington DC, la capital del presente imperio, también afrancesada. Sus museos del Smithsonian en el Mall, Arlington Cemetery… Este viaje se puede encontrar en www.elviajeroaccidental.com, en concreto en el artículo https://elviajeroaccidental.com/3781/verano-2015-por-la-costa-este-de-eeuu/. Hacemos algunas recomendaciones que ayudan a hacer más agradable los recorridos a pie por las ciudades, con sitios interesantes donde comer: http://21stboston.com/ en Boston o http://www.citytaphousedc.com/ en Washington DC. Y no olvides tu seguro de viaje. Puedes viajar seguro por ejemplo, una semana en Nueva York desde 42€. Te evitarás problemas y solo disfrutarás. Busca el que mejor se adapte a ti con Seguros Mondo.  

For this week's adventure in podcasting our team sent intrepid individual, and Constantly Calibrating Creative Director, Justin Stanley to the surprisingly frigid hellscape* of Boston, Massachusetts. Why would we do such a thing, you may be asking? Well, because last weekend it was PAX East 2017! That's right, Justin went to the land of Quincy Market to explore the wonders of Penny Arcade's annual eastern-based gaming experience to acquire tales to delight and tantalize you. From games like Graveyard Keeper and Songbringer to Flipping Death and Northgard, we have many a tale. But that's not all! In addition the team explores the world of who is allowed to repair your broken consoles, while pondering what happened to Josh at the start of the show. Welcome to episode 218 of the Constantly Calibrating Podcast!   *To be abundantly clear, we have nothing against Boston. In fact, it's in Josh's top 5 favorite cities in the world, but as anyone who was there last weekend knows, it was cold as frell.

Join Scott and his special guests, Kevin and Hamish, as they breakdown and explain every little detail and reference from the Boston-themed episode of The Simpsons entitled "The Town"! Listen as Kevin and Scott give Hamish a full education in all things Massachusetts, from the founding of the Massachusetts Bay Colony all the way to Dunkin Donuts and Cumberland Farms! Hamish is still a little bitter from the treatment his native Australia received on The Simpsons years ago in the episode "Bart Vs. Australia", but he warmly embraces this hilarious take on New England life and culture! They'll talk all about the unique Jordan's Furniture stores, the New England Patriots and their various scandals, Paul Revere, traffic, Make Way For Ducklings, candlepin bowling, Quincy Market, Newbury Comics, and so much more! They'll explain every sign, every poster, every Boston joke, and every face in the crowd. So grab an iced coffee from Dunkies, turn off your old VHS recording of The Movie Loft, and get ready for one of the most detailed, comprehensive, and wicked awesome episodes of Hitting Play EVAH!  Follow Kevin on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/OneWallCinema  Check out Kevin's work: http://www.onewallcinema.com/  Check out One Wall Cinema on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/k1posterchild  Check out Kevin's riffs at https://gumroad.com/onewallcinema  Follow Hamish on Vine: http://www.vine.co/Silent-Hamish  Follow Hamish on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/SilentHamish  Follow Hamish on Tumblr: http://www.silenthamishart.tumblr.com  Please email us at hittingplayshow@gmail.com  Hitting Play on Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/HittingPlay  Scott's Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/MCandFriends  Scott's Vine: http://www.vine.co/MCandFriends 

March 2015 - Day 13 This is one of 17 recordings I made on October 5, 2013. As you have heard previously on this podcast, I started at Old North Church right after tower bell ringing practice. I then made my way down the greenway, over to Quincy Market and the old State House, back by Government Center, by this park, then over to the Chinatown gate. Quite a long tour! I liked this piano because I thought it sounded a lot like a hammer dulcimer.

En un episodio bilingüe damos una vuelta por una zona histórica de Boston, alrededor de Faneuil Hall y Quincy Market. Caminando, nos encontramos con el fundador y director de Inca Son, conjunto de música peruana muy conocido.(Corrección: Eli se equivoca cuando dice que Quincy Market tiene 300 años de edad. El mercado se construyó durante los años 1824 y 1826)Visítenos en dosamericanos.blogspot.com, o en iTunes.

This week, friends don't let friends order McDonald's breakfast, no Nigerian scammers at Longhorn, Steve's new restaurant pet peeve, Halloween goodies, Discount Candy Day!, and we take a trip to historic Quincy Market. Music: "Every Color" by Matthew Ebel, courtesy of the Podsafe Music Network Intro Music: "Pocketbook" by Derek K Miller Outro Music: "Remember Hope" by Farewell Redemption Podcasts Mentioned: Geek Acres Shelly's Podcast Barely Podcasting Love Long and Prosper Life On Tap Upon Further Review Israelisms Cheap Date DinkyCast Secaucast Redboy Podcast Technorati Tags: Podcasts Boston Massachusetts New England Feedback: Feel free to e-mail us at WickedGoodPodcast|at|gmail.com or call us at 206-600-MASS(6277)!

A CBC “Off the Beaten Track” episode in which I talk traveling to Boston for Prince Edward Islanders. Originally aired on August 18, 2000 on CBC Radio’s Mainstreet program in Prince Edward Island. As with all of these pieces, I prepared a script for host Matthew Rainnie and me; it went like this: Peter’s Boston Survival Guide Introduction: It’s easy for Islanders to get to Boston.  We should do it more often.  This is the six-minute guide to getting to Boston in one piece and having fun while there. Step One: Getting to Boston The best flight to Boston is the 6:15 a.m. Air Nova flight direct from Charlottetown, which arrives in Boston 2 hours later at 9:13 a.m. It costs a lot to stay in Boston – might as well maximize your time there by arriving early! The earlier you reserve this flight the better – it can range anywhere from $250 to $1200.  There are usually seat sales three or four times a year. As usual, it’s cheaper to fly if you stay over a Saturday night. You only need 15,000 Aeroplan or Canadian Plus points to get to Boston. The flight takes about ½ an hour to get to Halifax, then you have a ½ hour wait, and then it’s about an hour to get to Boston. Step Two: In from the Airport Boston’s Logan Airport is located just across Boston Harbor from downtown Boston. You can take a taxi, a bus, a limousine – even a water taxi – but the best way to get to downtown Boston is by subway – known in Boston as “the T.” It costs only 85 cents, and it tales about ½ an hour to get downtown. Go out of the terminal building to the ground transportation area and look for the signs to “Logan Shuttle” – this is a free bus that takes you to the Airport subway station. Make sure you get on the right bus – not all of them stop at the subway station, but they’re all clearly marked. Once you get to the “T station” you pay your 85 cents and get on the subway – make sure you’re getting on the one going downtown – just ask the person in the toll booth. About 9 minutes later, you’re downtown! Step Three: Where to Stay? Boston is a really expensive place to stay! If you’re willing to stay in the suburbs you can find a good room for less than $100/night. In general, the closer you are to the heart of Boston, the more you’re going to pay and to stay downtown means paying $150 to $300 (or more!) a night. My picks for places to stay are: Susse Chalet Boston One of a chain of New England budget hotels Basic accommodations, but clean and well-located Make sure you stay at the Boston one, not the Cambridge one (Cambridge location is right on the highway, and very noisy!) Has a pool; is next door to a bowling center; has a restaurant; Burger King is around the corner. Not right on the subway, but they have a free shuttle that will take you there. About $100/night. Newbury Guest House and the Harborside Inn Sister properties – one located on Newbury Street (the chichi shopping district of Boston) and the other located just of Quincy Market right downtown. Small and friendly. Clean rooms, a step up from the Susse Chalet. Very nice continental breakfast is included. Can’t beat the location – both are located in the heart of very interesting neighbourhoods. $110 to $160/night, depending on the time of year. The College Club My personal favourite place to stay. Located in an historic building very near Boston Common, right in the heart of the city. Started life as a private club for college women; now invites the public to stay in its guest rooms. The rooms are small; sometimes you have to share a bath down the hall. Rooms have a lot of character – books and magazines, antique furnishings, large windows. But there’s a good breakfast included, you’re in the heart of the city and a block from the subway, and the building is beautiful. And the rooms go for $55 to $85/night, which is a great deal for Boston. Step Four: What to do? It’s easy to get around on foot or on the subway – there’s very little need for a car. You can get a free subway map from toll collectors. You could spend weeks in Boston and never run out of things to do.   Here are some “must see” things: Go to the top of the John Hancock Tower.  It’s a little expensive at $6 a person, but you get a great view of the entire city, and there’s an interesting presentation about the history of the city. The Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum, right around the corner from the Museum of Fine Arts, is a fantastic building which houses the personal collection of Isabella Stewart Gardner, who was a wealthy patron of the arts.  The building is in the style of a 15th century Venetian palace, and is as interesting as the art. The Nostalgia Factory in North Boston, which is the Italian district of the city, is a cramped little second-floor store, very hard to find.  They have a collection of 30,000 historic movie posters, lobby cards, photographs, books, and magazines. While in North Boston, eat at Ida’s Restaurant.  Like the Nostalgia Factory, it’s cramped and hard to find, but they serve wonderful homemade Italian food. Kendall Square Cinema over the Charles River in Cambridge is an “art house multiplex” and always has interesting movies playing.  It’s kind of hard to get to: you go to the Kendall ‘T’ stop, and then take a free shuttle bus to the Galleria Mall. While you’re on the Cambridge side of the Charles River, you can try Fire & Ice, which is a weird sort of “make your own meal” restaurant, where you assemble a collection of meat and vegetables and spices and then have them cooked for you on a huge 8-foot diameter grill. Finally, my favourite place in Boston is Filene’s Basement, which sells a motley collection of seconds, overruns and liquidated clothing at prices that gradually go down to zero as time marches on.  If you’re wily, you can buy an entire wardrobe for under $100. When you’re at Filene’s, be sure to eat at Chacarero, a small Chilean takeout stand in the same building that sells a most amazing sandwich the core ingredient of which is steamed green beans. Step Five: Coming back to PEI. There’s a 6:00 p.m. flight from Boston to Charlottetown every day, which lets you still a full day in Boston after checking out of your hotel. Many hotels, esp. smaller ones, have a luggage room where you can leave your things after you check out. Remember that you have a $50 exemption from duty if you’re gone for 24 hours or more, a $200 exemption if you’re gone for 48 hours or more, and a $750 exemption if you’re gone for more than a week.