Podcasts about Whiteness

Michael, Ethan, and special guest Jacob discuss the short story “The Devil and Tom Walker,” by Washington Irving, while drinking Suntory Toki Japanese whisky.In this episode:Is Michael the devil?What gives Benet the right?Pedestrian deals with the devilFaust scoreboard so far: 2 damned, 2 saved, 1 (?????)Honesty and deeper honestyGod terms, devil terms, and Deadpool termsRules, rules, we want more rulesHey hey we talk about the Monkees! (Also The Devil's Advocate, The Simpsons, and, inevitably, Star Trek)“Little brothers should always let their older brothers go first.” - Book of Hezekiah 14:12The Devil and Daniel Webster — 1941 filmNext time Michael and Ethan will discuss The Memory of Whiteness, by Kim Stanley Robinson! Join the discussion! Go to the Contact page and put "Scotch Talk" in the Subject line. We'd love to hear from you! And submit your homework at the Michael & Ethan in a Room with Scotch page. Join us on GoodReads!Get on our Substack!Donate to our Patreon! MUSIC & SFX: "Kessy Swings Endless - (ID 349)" by Lobo Loco. Used by permission. "The Grim Reaper - II Presto" by Aitua. Used under an Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike License. "Thinking It Over" by Lee Rosevere. Used under an Attribution License.(Links to books & products are affiliate links.)

 Season 6 episode 18 rebecca  j...and therapy - 1_8_26, 10.27 AMThu, Jan 08, 2026 10:40AM • 57:28SUMMARY KEYWORDSemotional metabolization, existential threat, destabilizing changes, social media, information overload, Venezuela crisis, racial identity, colonization, anti-blackness, white privilege, immigration policies, historical context, white supremacy, interdependence, narrative controlSPEAKERSSpeaker 3, Speaker 1, Speaker 2 Jenny  00:30I think something I'm sitting with is the impossibility and the necessity of trying to metabolize what's going on in our bodies. Yeah, and it feels like this double bind where I feel like we need to do it. We need to feel rage and grief and fear and everything else that we feel, and I don't think our nervous systems have evolved to deal with this level of overwhelm and existential threat that we're experiencing, but I do believe our bodies, Yeah, need space to try to do that, yeah,yesterday, I was sitting at, I don't know what's gonna happen to people anyway, Rebecca  01:45Pretty good. I'm okay. It like everyone. I think there's just a lot of crazy like and a lot of shifting to like, things that we could normally depend on as consistent and constant are not constant anymore. And that is like, it's very, 02:11I don't even have a word I want to say, disconcerting, but that's too light. There's, it's very destabilizing to to watch things that were constants and norms just be ripped out from underneath. People on like, every day there's something new that used to be illegal and now it's legal, or vice versa. Every day there's like, this new thing, and then you're having to think, like, how is that going to impact me? Is it going to impact me? How is it going to impact the people that I care about and love? Yeah, Danielle  02:52Jenny and I were just saying, like, maybe we could talk about just what's going on in the world right now, in this moment. And Jenny, I forgot how you were saying it like you were saying that we need to give our bodies space, but we also need to find a way to metabolize it so we can take action. I'm paraphrasing, but yeah, Rebecca  03:30And I would agree, and something else that I was thinking about too is like, what do you metabolize? And how do you metabolize it? Right? Like, in terms of what's happening in Venezuela, I have people that I count very dear to me who feel like it was a very appropriate action, and and people who are very dear to me who feel like absolutely not. That's ridiculous, right? And so, and I'm aware on that particular conversation, I'm not Venezuelan. I'm not I'm very aware that I stand on the outside of that community and I'm looking in on it, going, what do I need to know in order to metabolize this? What do I not know or not understand about the people who are directly impacted by this. And so I, like, I have questions even you know about some of the stuff that I'm watching. Like, what do you metabolize and how do you come to understand it? And in a place where it's very difficult to trust your information sources and know if the source that you're you're have is reliable or accurate or or complete in it, in its detail, it feels those are reasons why, to me, it feels really hard to metabolize things i. Jenny  05:06There's this like rule or like theory thing. I wish I could remember the name of it, but it's essentially like this, this graph that falls off, and it's like, the less you know about something, the more you think you know about it, and the more confident you are. And the more you know, the less confident you are. And it just explains so well our social media moment, and people that read like one headline and then put all these reels together and things talking about it. And on one hand, I'm grateful that we live in an age where we can get information about what's going on. And at the other end, like, you know, I know there, there's somewhere, some professor that's spent 15 years researching this and being like it is. There's so much here that people don't know and understand. And yeah, it feels like the sense of urgency is on purpose. Like that we just have to like it feels like people almost need to stay up to date with everything. But then I also wonder how much of that is whiteness and this idea of like, saviorism and like, if I'm just informed, then I'm doing my duty and like what I need to do and and what does it look like to slow down and be with things that are right in front of US and immediate, without ignoring these larger, transnational and global issues. Yeah, it feels so complicated. Rebecca  06:55I do think the sense of urgency is on purpose. I think that the overwhelming flood of information at this time is not just a function of like social media, but I think, I think the release of things and the timing of things is intentional, I think, and so I think there's a lot of Let's throw this one thing in front of you, and while you everybody's paying attention to that, let's do 10 other things behind closed doors that are equally, if not more, dangerous and harmful than the thing that we're letting You see up front. And so I think some of that is intentional. So I think that that sense of almost flooding is both about social media, yes, but it's also about, I think some of this is intentional, on purpose, flooding Jenny  08:01I think it's wise to ask those questions and try to sort of be paying attention to both what is being said and what is not being said. Rebecca  08:16Yeah, it may makes me think, even as you named Venezuela like my understanding is that that happened either the day of or the day before Congress was supposed to explain why they had redacted the Epstein files, and it just the lengths that they will go to to distract from actually releasing the files and showing the truth about Trump and Epstein and everyone else that was involved is, Speaker 2  08:52well, yeah, yeah, yes. And there's something in me that also wants to say, like it what happened around Venezuela might be 09:32and its natural resources is not a small thing. And then I was reminded today by someone else, this is also not the first time this country has done that. It might be the first time it was televised to the world, but so I don't Yes on the distraction. And I agree with you times 1000 10:09hard about this moment, is that there's all this stuff that's happening that's like absolutely we would be looking at, how do you possibly put any of that in any sense of order that it makes any sense? Because, yes, the FC, I mean, it's horrific. What we're talking about is likely in those files, and if they are that intent on them not coming out, if it's worse than what we already know, that's actually scary. Danielle  10:44Yeah, I agree that this isn't new, because this is it feels like, you know, Ibram X kendi was like, talking about, hey, like, this is what I'm talking about. This is what I'm talking about. And it feels as though, when we talk, I'm just going to back up, there's been this fight over what history are we teaching, you know, like, this is dei history, or this is, you know, critical race history. But in the end, I think we actually agree on the history more than we think. We just don't disagree on where we should take it. Now, what I think is happening is that, and you hear Donald J Trump talk about the Monroe Doctrine, or Vance talk about Manifest Destiny, or Stephen Miller, these guys talk about these historical things. They're talking about the history of colonization, but from a lens of like, this was good, this was not a mistake. Quote, slavery was not necessarily a bad thing. You have like Doug Wilson and these other Christian nationalists like unapologetically saying there was slavery. It's been throughout all time. This was, quote, a benefit people, you know, you have Charlie Kirk saying, you know, in the 1940s like pre civil rights movement, quote, I think he said, quote, black people were happier. He has said these things. So in my, in my mind, yes, they, they're they're saying, like, we don't want X taught in schools. But at the same time, they actually, we actually kind of agree on history. What we don't agree on is what we should do with it, or or who's in com, who's in control. Now, I think what they're saying is, this was history. We liked it, and we don't like the change in it, and we're just gonna keep doing it. I mean, they literally have reinstated the Monroe Doctrine, which is so racist, it's like, and manifest destiny is like, so fucked up to, like, put that back in place, like Rebecca said, I'm not, I'm not negating the murder that just happened in Minneapolis, but this concept that you you can tell who's human and that these resources belong to us, the only person human in the room, then, is the White man. I don't know. Does that make sense? It Rebecca  13:24makes me think of you know, when you talk about sort of identity formation, or racial identity formation, when you are talking about members of the majority culture and their story is, is this manifest destiny? Is this colonization and and the havoc and the harm that that they engaged in against whole people groups in order to gain the power? Do they, sort of, on a human level, metabolize the their membership in that group, and what that group has done the heart the and that it's come by its power by harming other people, right? And so in order to sort of metabolize that you can minimize it and dismiss it as not harmful. So that's the story, that slavery is not a bad thing, and that black people are happier under slavery, right? You can deny it and say that it didn't happen, or if it did, it wasn't me. That's Holocaust deniers, right? That didn't happen. I think what we're looking at now is the choice that some of the powers that be are making in order to metabolize this is to just call what is evil good, to just rewrite. Not the facts, but the meaning that that we draw from those facts. And then to declare, I have the right to do this, and when I do this, it makes me more powerful, it makes me a better leader, and it establishes rules and norms about right versus wrong. I think they're rewriting the meaning making as a way to kind of come to terms with what what they've done. And so I think that statement by the Vice President about you no longer have to apologize for being white in this country is actually about more than an apology. That was that is now, a couple of weeks later, after watching what happened in Venezuela, watching what happened in Minneapolis, watching what they're doing about Greenland, you go like, that's just a statement that we're going to do whatever the heck we want, and you cannot stop us, and we will do it without apology, and we will make you believe. We will craft a narrative that what is wrong is actually right, Jenny  16:43it just, it's, it's wild to me that our last time, or two times ago that we were talking, I was talking about Viola liozo, who was the white woman who drove black people during the bus boycott and was murdered, and the what feels like is being exposed is the precarity of white privilege, like it is Real. It exists, and so long as white people stay within the bounds of what is expected of them, and Renee good did not and I think that that is it Rebecca  17:36exposes what's already true, that I think racism and race are constructs to protect the system, and so if, no matter what your melanin is, if you start to move against the system, you immediately are at risk in a different way, and yet still not in the same way. You know, like there are already plenty of people who have died and been disappeared at the hands of ice. What happened is not new. What is new is that it did happen to a white woman, and it reveals something about where we are in the fulcrum, tip, I think, of of power and what's happening? 18:30because I think the same, like you said, is true during the Civil Rights Movement, right that in there, they're really they're most of their stories we don't know. There's a handful of them that we know about these, these white the people who believe themselves to be white, to quote on history codes, who were allies and who acted on behalf of the Civil Rights Movement and who lost their life because of it. There's probably way more than we know, because, again, those are stories that are not allowed to be told. But it makes me wonder if, if the exposure that you're talking about Jenny is because we were at some sort of tipping point right, in a certain sense, by the time you elect Obama in oh eight, you could make the argument that something of racial equality is beginning to be institutionalized in the country, right? I'm not saying that he solved everything and he was this panacea, but I'm saying when the system, when the people in the system, find a way to bring equilibrium. That's the beginning of something being institutionalized, right? And, and, and did that set off this sort of mass panic in the majority culture to say that that cannot happen? Mm. Yeah, and and, so there is this backlash to make sure that it doesn't happen, right? And to the extent that it's beginning to be institutionalized, that means that some members of the majority culture have begun to agree with the institutionalism of some kind of equilibrium, some type of equity, otherwise you wouldn't see it start to seep into the system itself, right? And it means that there are people who open doors, there are people who left Windows cracked open there, you know, there are, right? I mean, somebody somewhere that had the key to the door, left it unlocked, so, so that, so that a marginalized community could find an entrance, right? And and so it does make me think about, are we? Are we looking at this sort of historical tipping point? And what's being exposed is all these people are the majority culture who are on the wrong side of this argument. We need you to get back in line. I mean, if you read ta nehisi Coates book, eight years in power, he makes a sort of similar argument that that's what happened around reconstruction, right? You have the Emancipation Proclamation being signed, slavery is now illegal in the United States, and there's this period during reconstruction where there's mass sort of accomplishment that happens in the newly freed slave community. And then you see the rise of the Ku Klux Klan and the very violent backlash. This is not going to happen. We're not. We're not. And when, when I say what happened during Reconstruction, is like again, the beginning of the institutionalizing of that kind of equilibrium and equity that came out of the Emancipation Proclamation. Right? My kids were part of a genealogy project a few years back, and one of the things that they uncovered is they have a ancestor who was elected to this 22:27and while he was in office, he was instrumental in some of the initial funding that went to Hampton to establish Hampton University, right? And so that's the kind of institutionalized equity that starts to happen in this moment, and then this massive violent backlash, the rise of the Ku Klux, Klan, the black codes. We this is not going to happen. We're not doing this right. And so it does make me wonder if what we're actually looking at the exposure that you're talking about, Jenny is like the beginning of the this sort of equilibrium that could happen when you when things start to get institutionalized and and the powers that be going No way, no How, no dice, not doing that. Danielle  23:21I think that's true, and especially among immigrant communities. I don't know if you know, at the beginning, they were saying, like, we're just going after the violent criminals, right? And this morning, I watched on a news source I really trust, a video of a Somali citizen, a US citizen, but as a Somali background, man pulled over by ice like he's an Uber driver in Minneapolis. And they like, surrounded him, and he's like, wait a minute, I thought you were going after the violent criminals. And they're like, Well, you know, like, Are you a US citizen? He's like, Well, where's your warrant? And they're like, we're checking your license plate. He's like, well, then you know who I am. And then they want him to answer, and they keep provoking and they're like, Oh, you have a video on us. And he's like, Oh, you have a GoPro. He's like, I thought you were just going after violent criminals, you know? And they're like, no, we want to know if you're a US citizen. So in a sense, you know, there was all this rhetoric at the beginning that said, we you have to do it the right way. And I remember at the very beginning feeling afraid for Luis like, oh, man, shit, we did this the right way. I don't know if that's really guarantee. I don't think that's a guarantee of any guarantee of anything. And it's not doing well paying all the bills like it's expensive to become a citizen. It is not easy. Paying all the bills, going to the fingerprints, get in the test, hiring a lawyer, making sure you did it. Like cross, all your T's dot, all your eyes, just to get there and do it. And then they're saying, you know, and then they're saying, Well, prove it. Well, what do you have on your record? Or people showing up after having done all that work? They're showing up to their swearing in to be US citizens. And they're saying, Sorry, nope. And they're like, taken by ice. So you can see what you're saying. Rebecca first, it says violent criminals. Yeah, and you know, you have to have like, an FBI fingerprint background check. You had to do this, like, 10 years ago. Whenever Luis became a citizen, that's like, serious shit, you get your background check. So by the time you're into that swearing in, they know who you are, like you're on record, they know who you are, so they've done all that work. So this is not about being a criminal. This is about there's somebody successful that's possibly not white, that has done all the right things, paid all the fees, has the paperwork, and you don't like them because they're not white. And I think that's directly related to anti blackness. Rebecca  25:40Yeah. Say more about the anti blackness, because we started this conversation talking about Somalis and and Somalis are only the latest target of ice, right? It started with people of Latino descent. So how does that for you come down to anti blackness? Oh, for me, Danielle  26:02I see it as a as a projection. I can't tolerate my feelings about, quote, people of color, but let's be more specific about black people, and I can't tolerate those feelings. And for a time, I think we were in this sliver of time where it was not quite it was still like gaining social momentum to target black folks, but it was still a little bit off limits, like we were still like, oh, it's the criminals. Oh, it's these bad, bad guys. I know it's just the Latinos or, Oh, it's just this, this and this and this. But then if you notice, you start watching these videos, you start noticing they're like, they're grabbing, like, Afro Latinos. They're like, they're like, pushing into that limit, right? Or Puerto Rican folks they've grabbed, who are US citizens? So now you see the hate very clearly moving towards black folks. Like, how does an untrained $50,000 bonus ice agent know if, quote, a black person, quote, you know, if we're talking in the racial construct, has a Somali background or not, right? Right? It actually feels a little bit to me like grooming, right? Rebecca  27:24I I've asked myself this question several times in the past couple of years, like, and if, and I think some of the stuff that I've read like about the Holocaust, similar question, right? Was like, is racism really the thing that is that is driving this or is it something else, like at the at the heart of it, at the end of the day, are you really driven by racialized hate of someone that is different than you? Or is that just the smoke screen that the architects of this moment are using because you'll fall for it, right? And so I do think like you start with the criminals, because that's socially acceptable, and then you move very quickly from the criminals to everybody in that ethnic group, right? And so you see the supreme court now saying that you can stop and frisk somebody on the basis of a surname 28:22or an accent, Rebecca  28:26right? And it feels very much like grooming, because what was socially acceptable was first this very small subset, and now we've expanded to a whole people group, and now we've jumped from one country to another, which is why I think you know MLK is quote about injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. If you're going to come for one subset, you will eventually come for everyone, until the only subset is those in power versus those that aren't. Danielle  29:05Or just, let me just ask you this question then, so you got he's enforcing immigration bans on certain countries. Guess who the where the majority of those countries are located, Africa. Now, why didn't he do that with Latin the Latin America? It's very interesting, Rebecca  29:29and my fear is that it's coming right again. It's socially acceptable in this country to be anti black. Everyone understands that, and then you move from anti black to anti everybody else. And what you say is this, this people group is closer to black than white, and for that reason, they're out too, which is also not a new argument in this country. Jenny  29:58It makes me think of someone you. To this illustration, then I will not get it probably exactly how it is, but it was basically like if I have a room of 10 people, and I need to control those 10 people, I don't need to control those 10 people. I need to make a scapegoat out of three of them, and then the other seven will be afraid to be that scapegoat. And I feel like that is a part of what's going on, where, viscerally, I think that, again, like white bodies know, like it is about race and it's not about race, like race is the justification of hatred and tyrannical control. And I really love the book by Walter Rodney, how Europe underdeveloped Africa. And he traces like what Europe, and I would include the US now has done to the continent of what is so called Africa, and it didn't in the end, that it was used to create race and racism in order to justify exploitation and of people and resources. And so it's like, yeah, I think at the end of the day, it's really not about race, and it is because of the way in which that's been used to marginalize and separate even from the construction of whiteness, was to try to keep lower socioeconomic whites from joining with formerly enslaved black people and indigenous people to revolt against the very few people that actually hold power, like there are way more people that lack power. But if, if those in power can keep everyone siloed and divided and afraid, then they get to stay in power. Danielle  32:01That's where I come back to history. And I feel like, I feel like these guys like JD Vance and Stephen Miller love our history and hate the parts of it that are leading towards liberation. For people, they love that they love the colonization. They talk about it. They've there's a fantasy. They're living in, this fantasy of what could be, of what was for one set of people, and that was white men. And they're enacting their fantasy on us in some ways, you know, I think the question of, you know, Jenny, you always deal with bodies, and, you know, you're kind of known for that shit, I think, I think, just like, but the question of, like, who has a body when, when? Like, when does the body count? You know, like, when does it matter? And it feels like that's where race becomes really useful, 33:09because it gets to say, like, you know, like, that white lady, that's not really, that's not really a murder, you know. Or, you know, George Floyd, like, Nah, that's not really it, you know, just com, and they knew there's so many other lynchings and murders. Like, we can't cover them all. I just think it's just speaks to, like, who, you know, another way to say it'd be like, who's human and who's not. Jenny  33:42And like I sent you. Danielle, there was a post yesterday that someone said, those white lives matter. People seem to be really silent right now. And it just exposes, like the the hypocrisy, even in that and the, I think, the end of not the end, because racial privilege is still there, but, but this moment is exposing something, I think, as you're naming Rebecca, like it feels like this really scary tipping, and maybe hopeful tipping, where it's like there's enough, maybe fear or grasping of power, that there's enough desperation to execute a white woman, which historically and now, I think it says something about where we are in this moment. And I don't know exactly what yet, but I think it's, it's very exposing. Rebecca  34:43Yeah, but my what floats across my mind when you say that is really what has been the narrative or trajectory for white women? Because I think if you start to pull on stories like Emmett Till. 35:01Soul, and you realize what has been done in the name of protecting white women that doesn't actually feel like protection, right, right? And so, so again, you almost have this sense of like white femininity being this pawn, right? And you and you can have this narrative that that sounds like it's protection, sounds like it's value, but really it's not right. I only pull that out and use it when it when it gives me permission to do what I really want to do, right? 35:43And so in this moment. Now, you know, I mean, Emmett Till died because he was accused of looking inappropriately at a white woman, right? More recently, that incident with the the bird watcher in Central Park, right? I mean, his freedom is is under threat because of a white woman and, and then how do we go from that to ice killing a white woman and, and what like you said? What does that actually say about the value of white women, Was it, was it ever really recognized by the powers that be, right? Or is that like a straw man that I put up so I can have permission to do whatever I want? Jenny  36:36Absolutely, yeah, I think the trope of protecting white womanhood. It's it's always given women privilege and power, but that is only in proximity to white men and performing white womanhood. And you know, as you were talking about, the rise of lynchings, it did begin after reconstruction, and it really coincided with the first movie ever shown in theaters, which was Birth of a Nation they showed, yeah, white men in blackface, sexually assaulting a white woman, and the absolute frenzy and justification that that evoked was, we're protecting our white women, which was really always about protecting racial and class privilege, not the sovereignty of the bodies of white women, Rebecca  37:33right, right? And so we're back to your original thought, that what now is exposed, you know, with what happened in Minnesota is it's not really about protecting her and she's expendable. She is, quote, a domestic terrorist 37:56now so that we can justify what we're doing, Jenny  38:15which I think subconsciously at least white bodies have always known like there is something of I am safe and I am protected and I am privileged, so long as I keep performing whiteness. Rebecca  38:39I mean, the thing that scares me about that moment is that now we've gone Danielle from the criminals to the brown skinned citizens to white women who can be reclassified and recast as Domestic Terrorists if you don't toe the line, right? They're coming for everybody, because, because now we have a new category of people that ice has permission to go after, right? And again, it reminds me, if you look back at the black codes, which, again, got established during that same time period as you're talking about Birth of a Nation, Jenny, it became illegal for black people to do a whole host of things, to congregate, to read all kinds of things, right to vote, and in some states, it became illegal for white people to assist them in accomplishing any of those tasks. I Yeah, Danielle  39:53I mean, it's just the obliteration of humanity like the. Literal like, let me any humanity that can you can connect with your neighbor on let me take that away. Let me make it illegal for you to have that human share point with your neighbor. I really, that really struck me. I think it was talking about the the Minnesota mayor saying they're trying to get you to see your neighbor as like, less than human. He's like, don't fall for it. Don't fall for it. And I agree, like, we can't fall for it. I'm mean, it's like that. I Jenny  40:45don't know if you know that famous quote from Nazi Germany that was, like, they came for the Jews. And I didn't say anything because I wasn't a Jew. They, you know? And we've seen this, and we've all grown up with this, and the fact that so many people collectively have been like, well, you know, I'm not a criminal, well, I'm not an immigrant, well, I'm not, and it's like it this beast is coming for everybody, Rebecca  41:13yeah, well, and I, you know, I think That as long as we have this notion of individualism that I only have to look out for me and mine, and it doesn't matter what happens to anyone else. That is allowed the dynamic that you're talking about Jenny is allowed to flourish and until we come to some sense of interdependence until we come to some sense of the value of the person sitting next to me, and until we come to some sense of, if it isn't well with them, it cannot possibly be well with me. That sort of sense of, Well, I'm not a criminal, I'm not a Jew, so I don't have to worry about it is gonna flourish. 42:09Yesterday, I jumped42:12on Facebook for a second, and somebody that I would consider a dear friend had a lengthy Facebook post about how in favor he was of the President's actions in Venezuela, and most of his rationale was how this person, this dictator, was such a horrible person and did all of these horrible things. And my first reaction was, like, very visceral. I don't, I can't even finish this post like, I just, I mean, this is very visceral, like, and, and I don't want to talk to you anymore, and I'm not sure that our 20 plus years of friendship is sufficient to overcome how, how viscerally I am against the viewpoint that you just articulated, and I find myself, you know, a day later, beginning to wonder, Where is there some value in his perspective as a Latino man, what, what is his experience like that, that he feels so strongly about the viewpoint that he feels? And I'm not saying that he's right. I'm saying that if we don't learn to pause for a second and try to sit in the shoes of the other person before dismissing their value as a human. We will forever be stuck in the loop that we're in, right? I don't you know, I don't know that I will change my opinion about how much as an American, I have problems with the US president, snatching another leader and stealing the resources of their country. But I'm trying to find the capacity to hear from a man of Latino descent the harm that has been done to the people of Venezuela under this dictator, right? And I have to make myself push past that visceral reaction and try to hear something of what he's saying. And I would hope that he would do the same. I. Danielle  45:06I don't have words for it. You know, it just feels so deep, like it feels like somewhere deep inside the dissonance and also the want to understand, I think we're all being called, you know, Rebecca, this moment is, you know, this government, this moment, the violence, it's, it's, it's extracting our ability to stay with people like and it's such a high cost to stay with people. And I get that, I'm not saying it isn't, but I think what you're talking about is really important. Rebecca  45:57like you said, Jenny earlier, when you were talking about like, the more you know about something, the less confident you are, right? It's like, I can name, I am not Venezuelan, right? I can name I don't even think I know anybody who's from Venezuela, and if I do, I haven't taken the time to learn that you're actually from Venezuela, right, right? And I don't know anything about the history or culture of that country or the dictator that that was taken out of power. But I have seen, I can see in my friend's Facebook post that that's, it's a very painful history that he feels very strongly about. I so mostly that makes me as a black American, pause on how, on how much I want To dismiss his perspective because it's different than mine. Jenny  47:22I yeah, it also makes me think of how we're so conditioned to think in binaries and like, can there be space to hold the impossible both and where it's like, who am I to say whether or not people feel and are liberated or not in another country? I guess time will tell to see what happens. But for those that are Venezuelan and that are celebrating the removal of Maduro like can that coexist with the dangerous precedent of kidnapping a leader of a foreign country and starting immediately to steal their resources and and how do we Do this impossible dance of holding how complex these these experiences are that we're trying to navigate Rebecca  48:29and to self declare on national TV that like you're the self appointed leader of the country until, until whenever right some arbitrary line that you have drawn that you will undoubtedly change six times. I mean the danger of that precedent. It is I don't have vocabulary for how problematic that is. Danielle  48:57I don't mean to laugh, but if you didn't believe in white supremacy before, I would be giving you a lesson, and this is how it works, and it's awesome. Jenny  49:10And like you're saying, Rebecca, like I love books are coming to me today. There's another one called How to hide an empire and it Chase. It tracks from western expansion in what is now known as the United States to imperialism in the Philippines, in Puerto Rico, like in all of these places where we have established Dominion as a nation, as an empire, and what feels new is how televised and public this is, that people are being forced to confront it, hopefully in a different way, and maybe there can be more of this collective like way to psych it. This isn't what I'm supporting, because. I think for so long, this two party system that we've been force fed has a lot of difference when it comes to internal politics in the United States, but when it comes to transnational and international politics, it's been pretty much very similar for Democrats and Republicans in terms of what our nation is willing to do to other nations that we are conditioned not to think about. And so I think there's a hope. There's a desire for a hope for me to be like, Okay, can we see these other nations as humans and what the US has always done since the beginning. Rebecca  50:45you know, there's what actually happened, and then there's the history book story that we tell about what happened, right? And it like, it like what Danielle said. It appears to me that white supremacy is just blatantly at play, right? Like they're not hiding it at all. They're literally telling you, I can walk I can walk into another country, kidnap its leader and steal its resources. And I will tell you, that's what I'm doing. I will show you video footage of me intercepting oil tankers. I right like, and I will televise the time, place and location of my meeting with all the oil executives to get the oil um and and I'd like to be able to say that that is a new moment in history, and that what feels different is that we've never been so blatant about it, but I'm not sure that's true, right? I would love to have a time machine and be able to go back in some other point in time in American history and find out what they printed on the front page of the newspaper while they were stealing Africans from Africa or all the other while they were committing genocide against all the Native American tribes and all the other places and countries and people groups that the United States has basically taken their people and their resources. And so I don't know if this is different. I don't because, because the history books that I read would suggest that it is that right, but I don't. You can't always trust the narrative that we've been taught. Right? When I think there's an African proverb but as long as history is told by the lion, it will always favor the lion. Jenny  52:55I love you. Really good to be with you. Love you. Bye. Bye. See You Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias' and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me…Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Rebecca A. Wheeler Walston, J.D., Master of Arts in CounselingEmail: asolidfoundationcoaching@gmail.comPhone:  +1.5104686137Website: Rebuildingmyfoundation.comI have been doing story work for nearly a decade. I earned a Master of Arts in Counseling from Reformed Theological Seminary and trained in story work at The Allender Center at The Seattle School of Theology and Psychology. I have served as a story facilitator and trainer at both The Allender Center and the Art of Living Counseling Center. I currently see clients for one-on-one story coaching and work as a speaker and facilitator with Hope & Anchor, an initiative of The Impact Movement, Inc., bringing the power of story work to college students.By all accounts, I should not be the person that I am today. I should not have survived the difficulties and the struggles that I have faced. At best, I should be beaten down by life‘s struggles, perhaps bitter. I should have given in and given up long ago. But I was invited to do the good work of (re)building a solid foundation. More than once in my life, I have witnessed God send someone my way at just the right moment to help me understand my own story, and to find the strength to step away from the seemingly inevitable ending of living life in defeat. More than once I have been invited and challenged to find the resilience that lies within me to overcome the difficult moment. To trust in the goodness and the power of a kind gesture. What follows is a snapshot of a pivotal invitation to trust the kindness of another in my own story. May it invite you to receive to the pivotal invitation of kindness in your own story. Listen with me… Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

The Context of White Supremacy welcomes Chad Montrie. A historian at the University of Massachusetts at Lowell, Montrie is classified as a White Man and his research interests include: “'Blackface' Minstrelsy, Racial Exclusion, and Labor Environmentalism.” Gus is slowly learning a great deal about the history and import of Racially Restricted Regions (so-called “sundown towns”). Locations where White people deliberately prohibit black people from residing or even visiting illustrate what it means to be racially classified as White and the intentional White labor necessary to maintain a global system of domination. We'll discuss Montrie's 2022 publication, Whiteness in Plain View: A History of Racial Exclusion in Minnesota. This text examines how generations of Whites in this region functioned to make sure very few black people made it that for north. This text contains a great deal about minstrel shows and caging black people in insane asylums. We even connect this history to the current Racist attacks against Somali immigrants and remember that a number of those White Terrorists who stormed the Capitol on January 6, 2021traveled from Minnesota. Many Welsing moments throughout this broadcast. Please, share this podcast and Dr. Montrie's book with Timberwolves' guard Anthony Edwards. #NoSomalis #TheCOWS16Years INVEST in The COWS – http://paypal.me/TheCOWS Cash App: https://cash.app/$TheCOWS CALL IN NUMBER: 720.716.7300 CODE 564943#

The president of Sacramento State University - a black dude - wants to eliminate whiteness. We discuss on today’s show.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How can we—jazz fans, musicians, writers, and historians—understand the legacy and impact of a musician like Dave Brubeck? It is undeniable that Brubeck leveraged his fame as a jazz musician and status as a composer for social justice causes, and in doing so, held to a belief system that, during the civil rights movement, modeled a progressive approach to race and race relations. It is also true that it took Brubeck, like others, some time to understand the full spectrum of racial power dynamics at play in post-WWII, early Cold War, and civil rights-era America. Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness (Oxford UP, 2023) uses Brubeck's performances of whiteness across his professional, private, and political lives as a starting point to understand the ways in which whiteness, privilege, and white supremacy more fully manifested in mid-century America. How is whiteness performed and re-performed? How do particular traits become inscribed with whiteness, and further, how do those traits, now racialized in a listener's mind, filter the sounds a listener hears? To what extent was Brubeck's whiteness made by others? How did audiences and critics use Brubeck to craft their own identities centered in whiteness? Drawing on archival records, recordings, and previously conducted interviews, Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness listens closely for the complex and shifting frames of mid-century whiteness, and how they shaped the experiences of Brubeck's critics, audiences, and Brubeck himself. Throughout, author Kelsey Klotz asks what happens when a musician tries to intervene, using his privilege as a tool with which to disrupt structures of white supremacy, even as whiteness continues to retain its hold on its beneficiaries. Nathan Smith is a PhD Student in Music Theory at Yale University (nathan.smith@yale.edu). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/american-studies

How can we—jazz fans, musicians, writers, and historians—understand the legacy and impact of a musician like Dave Brubeck? It is undeniable that Brubeck leveraged his fame as a jazz musician and status as a composer for social justice causes, and in doing so, held to a belief system that, during the civil rights movement, modeled a progressive approach to race and race relations. It is also true that it took Brubeck, like others, some time to understand the full spectrum of racial power dynamics at play in post-WWII, early Cold War, and civil rights-era America. Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness (Oxford UP, 2023) uses Brubeck's performances of whiteness across his professional, private, and political lives as a starting point to understand the ways in which whiteness, privilege, and white supremacy more fully manifested in mid-century America. How is whiteness performed and re-performed? How do particular traits become inscribed with whiteness, and further, how do those traits, now racialized in a listener's mind, filter the sounds a listener hears? To what extent was Brubeck's whiteness made by others? How did audiences and critics use Brubeck to craft their own identities centered in whiteness? Drawing on archival records, recordings, and previously conducted interviews, Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness listens closely for the complex and shifting frames of mid-century whiteness, and how they shaped the experiences of Brubeck's critics, audiences, and Brubeck himself. Throughout, author Kelsey Klotz asks what happens when a musician tries to intervene, using his privilege as a tool with which to disrupt structures of white supremacy, even as whiteness continues to retain its hold on its beneficiaries. Nathan Smith is a PhD Student in Music Theory at Yale University (nathan.smith@yale.edu). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/new-books-network

How can we—jazz fans, musicians, writers, and historians—understand the legacy and impact of a musician like Dave Brubeck? It is undeniable that Brubeck leveraged his fame as a jazz musician and status as a composer for social justice causes, and in doing so, held to a belief system that, during the civil rights movement, modeled a progressive approach to race and race relations. It is also true that it took Brubeck, like others, some time to understand the full spectrum of racial power dynamics at play in post-WWII, early Cold War, and civil rights-era America. Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness (Oxford UP, 2023) uses Brubeck's performances of whiteness across his professional, private, and political lives as a starting point to understand the ways in which whiteness, privilege, and white supremacy more fully manifested in mid-century America. How is whiteness performed and re-performed? How do particular traits become inscribed with whiteness, and further, how do those traits, now racialized in a listener's mind, filter the sounds a listener hears? To what extent was Brubeck's whiteness made by others? How did audiences and critics use Brubeck to craft their own identities centered in whiteness? Drawing on archival records, recordings, and previously conducted interviews, Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness listens closely for the complex and shifting frames of mid-century whiteness, and how they shaped the experiences of Brubeck's critics, audiences, and Brubeck himself. Throughout, author Kelsey Klotz asks what happens when a musician tries to intervene, using his privilege as a tool with which to disrupt structures of white supremacy, even as whiteness continues to retain its hold on its beneficiaries. Nathan Smith is a PhD Student in Music Theory at Yale University (nathan.smith@yale.edu). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/critical-theory

How can we—jazz fans, musicians, writers, and historians—understand the legacy and impact of a musician like Dave Brubeck? It is undeniable that Brubeck leveraged his fame as a jazz musician and status as a composer for social justice causes, and in doing so, held to a belief system that, during the civil rights movement, modeled a progressive approach to race and race relations. It is also true that it took Brubeck, like others, some time to understand the full spectrum of racial power dynamics at play in post-WWII, early Cold War, and civil rights-era America. Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness (Oxford UP, 2023) uses Brubeck's performances of whiteness across his professional, private, and political lives as a starting point to understand the ways in which whiteness, privilege, and white supremacy more fully manifested in mid-century America. How is whiteness performed and re-performed? How do particular traits become inscribed with whiteness, and further, how do those traits, now racialized in a listener's mind, filter the sounds a listener hears? To what extent was Brubeck's whiteness made by others? How did audiences and critics use Brubeck to craft their own identities centered in whiteness? Drawing on archival records, recordings, and previously conducted interviews, Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness listens closely for the complex and shifting frames of mid-century whiteness, and how they shaped the experiences of Brubeck's critics, audiences, and Brubeck himself. Throughout, author Kelsey Klotz asks what happens when a musician tries to intervene, using his privilege as a tool with which to disrupt structures of white supremacy, even as whiteness continues to retain its hold on its beneficiaries. Nathan Smith is a PhD Student in Music Theory at Yale University (nathan.smith@yale.edu). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/performing-arts

How can we—jazz fans, musicians, writers, and historians—understand the legacy and impact of a musician like Dave Brubeck? It is undeniable that Brubeck leveraged his fame as a jazz musician and status as a composer for social justice causes, and in doing so, held to a belief system that, during the civil rights movement, modeled a progressive approach to race and race relations. It is also true that it took Brubeck, like others, some time to understand the full spectrum of racial power dynamics at play in post-WWII, early Cold War, and civil rights-era America. Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness (Oxford UP, 2023) uses Brubeck's performances of whiteness across his professional, private, and political lives as a starting point to understand the ways in which whiteness, privilege, and white supremacy more fully manifested in mid-century America. How is whiteness performed and re-performed? How do particular traits become inscribed with whiteness, and further, how do those traits, now racialized in a listener's mind, filter the sounds a listener hears? To what extent was Brubeck's whiteness made by others? How did audiences and critics use Brubeck to craft their own identities centered in whiteness? Drawing on archival records, recordings, and previously conducted interviews, Dave Brubeck and the Performance of Whiteness listens closely for the complex and shifting frames of mid-century whiteness, and how they shaped the experiences of Brubeck's critics, audiences, and Brubeck himself. Throughout, author Kelsey Klotz asks what happens when a musician tries to intervene, using his privilege as a tool with which to disrupt structures of white supremacy, even as whiteness continues to retain its hold on its beneficiaries. Nathan Smith is a PhD Student in Music Theory at Yale University (nathan.smith@yale.edu). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Support our show by becoming a premium member! https://newbooksnetwork.supportingcast.fm/biography

Dan Mandis (WTN-Nashville) fills in for Gary McNamara and Eric Harley this week. In part one of today's Red Eye Radio podcast, YouTuber Nick Shirley says he receiving death threats over his video exposing Somali fraud / The Trump administration says it's withholding childcare funds from Minnesota amid fraud allegations / A deep dive into the failures of California Governor Gavin Newsom / Dem Rep Ilhan Omar's ties to a murderous dictatorship / Border czar Tom Homan on deporting those here in the country fraudulently / Now the left is talking about a "Whiteness Pandemic" . For more talk on the issues that matter to you, listen on radio stations across America Monday-Friday 12am-5am CT (1am-6am ET and 10pm-3am PT), download the RED EYE RADIO SHOW app, asking your smart speaker, or listening at RedEyeRadioShow.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So your name's been mistreated by autocorrect. What harm does that cause? And what would it take to fix it?In this episode, Northeastern University law professor Rashmi Dyal-Chand discusses her research into autocorrect's bias and shares her blueprint for change - from what consumers can do to where the law might need to step in.Plus: journalist Dhruti Shah on her viral 2018 BBC article that first brought the issue to light.This is Part 3 of "What's in a Name?", our mini-series about autocorrect and inclusive technology.--New to the series? Start with Part 1 and Part 2 Listen to the trailerEnjoying the show? Leave a rating to help others discover it, or share your autocorrect story at madeforuspod@gmail.com--About Rashmi Dyal-ChandRashmi Dyal-Chand is a law professor at Northeastern University. Her research and teaching focus on property law, poverty, economic development and consumer law. She is the author of the article, “Autocorrecting for Whiteness”, published in the Boston University Law Review in 2021.Learn more about Rashmi Dyal-Chand: https://law.northeastern.edu/faculty/dyal-chand/Read the “Autocorrecting for Whiteness” article: https://www.bu.edu/bulawreview/files/2021/03/DYAL-CHAND.pdfAbout Dhruti ShahDhruti Shah is a creative practitioner, storyteller and journalist who focuses extensively on belonging. She is a collaborator with I Am Not A Typo.Read Dhruti's article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46362259Follow Dhruti on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dhrutishahstoryteller/Follow Dhruti on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dhruti_journo/--Connect with Made for UsShow notes and transcripts: https://made-for-us.captivate.fm/Newsletter: https://madeforuspodcast.beehiiv.com/Social media: LinkedIn and Instagram

The Emotional Economy of Whiteness."  This isn't just about individual feelings; it's about how emotions—both conscious and unconscious—play a central role in constructing and maintaining whiteness and its associated privileges in radicalized societies.So, what exactly does this mean? At its core, it's about understanding the "emotionalities of whiteness" that operate beneath the surface of everyday reactions to race. Scholars like Matias suggest these run deeper, rooted in historical and often unacknowledged traumas connected to whiteness itself, manifesting as various defense mechanisms.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/racism-white-privilege-in-america--4473713/support.

These profound demographic changes are significantly influencing white identity and societal dynamics. The prospect of becoming a numerical minority challenges the long-held perception of white Americans as the "prototypical ethnic group" or what it means to be "All-American."  This shift is seen by some as eroding material advantages historically associated with being white, prompting a deep re-evaluation of white identity itself.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/racism-white-privilege-in-america--4473713/support.

In the third part of our column about the alt-right and Speculative Fiction fandom, Alan and Jordan break down a number of important concepts needed to understand the alt-right and how they view Speculative Fiction. Concepts include low time preferences, metapolitics, Archeofuturism, Faustianism, and mutant romances. we discuss the right wing and fandom and much more.

Is "Home Alone" a Christian movie? Fed Chairman Jerome Powell announces another interest rate cut. How is the economy right now? The U.S. seizes an oil tanker near Venezuela. James Carville is ranting yet again. Michigan fires its football coach after a scandal erupts at the school. Trump pays a visit to Marine One pilots. Kris has a fun experience at the airport. Tipping is out of control. Comparing the tax rates of the founding fathers' era to today. Erika Kirk addresses things being said around the murder of Charlie Kirk. Somali-connected fraud extends to numerous areas of the United States. Racism against white people continues across America. Boston raised the Somali flag. Hilary Swank airport issue. 00:00 Pat Gray UNLEASHED! 00:14 Christmas is Almost Here! 02:27 Is Home Alone a Christian Movie? 07:53 Another Rate Cut by Feds 10:21 President Trump Explains the Economy Today 14:00 President Trump's 2026 Tax Plan will Go into Effect 18:54 Trump Administration Seizes Venezuelan Tanker 21:23 FBI Serves Warrant to Venezuelan Tanker 22:25 James Carville's Weird Rant about Toast 31:45 Fat Five 48:21 Tipping in America 57:07 Taxes were NOT Supposed to be Permanent 1:07:30 Erika Kirk Responds to Haters 1:12:42 Somali Fraud in Maine 1:17:21 Weird Start to Nashville City Council Meeting 1:18:07 Whiteness in America 1:23:15 James O'Keefe Date Goes Wrong 1:28:57 Somalians in Texas? 1:32:42 Don't Photograph Celebrities Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode is sponsored by Raycon, Rugiet, Uncommon Goods and Wayfair! - Ready to level up your confidence in the bedroom? Head to Rugiet dot com and use mypromo code HARLAND for 15% off your first order. - The Essential Open Earbuds are here for the holiday season and they're selling fast. Raycon audio products are up to 20% off this holiday season. Go to buyraycon.com/HARLANDOPEN to save on Raycon audio products sitewide. -To get 15% off your next gift, go to Uncommongoods.com/harland- Get last-minute hosting essentials, gifts for all your loved ones, and decor to celebrate the holidays for WAY less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. Thanks for watching the Harland Highway. More Harland Williams: Harland Highway Podcast Video: https://www.youtube.com/c/HarlandHighwayPodcast Harland Highway Podcast Audio: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-harland-highway/id321980603 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/harlandwilliams Harbling Shirts: https://www.harbling.com Official Website: https://www.harlandwilliams.com Twitter :https://twitter.com/harlandhighway?lang=enMore Rick Glassman:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rickglassman/Website: https://www.rickglassman.com/X: https://x.com/RickGlassman #podcast #harlandwilliams Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In today's episode, Tim Whitaker engages engages in an enlightening conversation with public theologian and digital pastor, Kristian A. Smith. The discussion spans various critical themes such as the dangers of Christian nationalism, the importance of economic justice, and the moral imperative to address societal inequities. Kristian's Website | Kristianasmith.com Chapters 03:46 Discussing Christian Nationalism 09:11 The Complexity of Christianity and Social Justice 24:36 Racial Injustice and Historical Context 39:46 Power of Collective Action 40:57 Challenges of Class Solidarity 57:55 Whiteness and Identity Crisis 01:03:42 Biblical Perspectives on Wealth and Morality 01:09:26 Final Thoughts and Call to Action ____________________________________________________ TNE Podcast hosts thought-provoking conversations at the intersection of faith, politics, and justice. We're part of the New Evangelical's 501c3 nonprofit that rejects Christian Nationalism and builds a better path forward, rooted in Jesus and centered on justice.  If ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠you'd like to support our work or get involved, visit our website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.thenewevangelicals.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠  Follow Us On Instagram @thenewevangelicals  Subscribe On YouTube @thenewevangelicals This show is produced by Josh Gilbert Media | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Joshgilbertmedia.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Massive Welfare Fraud in Minnesota Funding Terrorism Allegations that Minnesota taxpayers indirectly funded the terrorist group Al-Shabab through fraudulent welfare programs. Fraud reportedly involved members of the Somali community, with billions of dollars stolen and millions sent to Somalia, some ending up with Al-Shabaab. The program cited is Minnesota’s Medicaid Housing Stabilization Services (HHS), which ballooned from an estimated $2.6 million to over $104 million annually before being scrapped. Criminal indictments have been announced, but the commentary criticizes lack of media coverage and political accountability. University of Minnesota’s “Whiteness Pandemic” Concept The university published material describing “whiteness” as a cultural pandemic driving racism. Family systems perpetuate whiteness and calls for self-reflection and re-education for white individuals. The commentary strongly condemns this as Marxist, anti-family, and anti-American ideology, framing it as indoctrination in higher education. Texas Designates Muslim Brotherhood and CARE as Terrorist Organizations Texas Governor Greg Abbott declared CARE (Council on American-Islamic Relations) and the Muslim Brotherhood as foreign terrorist and transnational criminal organizations. This move prevents these groups from acquiring land in Texas. The discussion highlights CARE’s alleged financial support for anti-Israel campus protests and the broader legislative push to federally designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terrorist organization. Mentions bipartisan efforts in Congress (Senators Ted Cruz and John Fetterman) and resistance from the State Department. Please Hit Subscribe to this podcast Right Now. Also Please Subscribe to the 47 Morning Update with Ben Ferguson and The Ben Ferguson Show Podcast Wherever You get You're Podcasts. And don't forget to follow the show on Social Media so you never miss a moment! Thanks for Listening YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VerdictwithTedCruz/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/verdictwithtedcruz X: https://x.com/tedcruz X: https://x.com/benfergusonshowYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@VerdictwithTedCruzSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This pre-Thanksgiving edition of What's on Your Mind with Scott Hennen features an annual listener survey on turkey preference, a historical segment on Thanksgiving, an update on North Dakota's higher education and farm economy, and a discussion on solving homelessness. Standout Moments   Annual Turkey Survey: White Meat vs. Dark Meat (0:01:42) The hosts kick off their annual survey asking listeners for their preference: white meat or dark meat for Thanksgiving. [cite_start]They also added a second question this year: turkey, ham, or both. Rush Limbaugh on the True Story of Thanksgiving (0:03:55) [cite_start]The show plays a segment from Rush Limbaugh arguing that the Pilgrims' initial "common store" system (a "commune" and "forerunner to the communes we saw in the 60s and 70s") failed due to a lack of incentive, leading to discontent and near starvation. [cite_start]Prosperity arrived only after they scrapped this "socialism" experiment and implemented private property and free enterprise. University of Minnesota's "Whiteness Pandemic" Curriculum (0:06:17) [cite_start]The hosts discuss a reported University of Minnesota curriculum teaching that America suffers from a "whiteness pandemic" and that white parents must "re-educate" their children because "family life are a source of the systemic racism". North Dakota's $400 Million Farm Relief Program (0:22:21) [cite_start]Governor Kelly Armstrong announces a new $400 million farm relief program from the Industrial Commission and the Bank of North Dakota. The program includes: [cite_start] $300 Million for a traditional Farm Loan Disaster Program to refinance and restructure debt at an interest rate of $3.75%$, utilizing high land values. [cite_start] $100 Million for a grain storage loan program to allow producers to hold their crop until prices improve. Critique of "Housing First" and "Harm Reduction" Policies (0:29:29) [cite_start]Author Mary Thoreau critiques the federal "Housing First" policy, noting that after 12 years, homelessness has only gone up. [cite_start]She argues the policy is based on the false premise that homelessness is only a housing issue, ignores root causes (like mental illness and addiction), and makes people wait a year to prove their homelessness, worsening their condition. Transformative Solution: Haven for Hope (0:31:05) [cite_start]As a model for a "transformative solution," Thoreau highlights Haven for Hope in San Antonio, Texas: a 22-acre campus where 100 service providers are coordinated to address every need, including mental health and recovery. [cite_start]She estimates roughly 80% of the homeless population has some sort of addiction and/or mental health issue. Financial Planning for Farmers: Tax-Advantaged Legacy (0:33:14) [cite_start]Financial…

The University of Minnesota believes that the country is afflicted by a pandemic of whiteness. John Hinderaker in person to announce the 2025 Turkey Of The Year. Emergency Ilhan Omar update. Hennepin Country Sarah West overturns fraudster verdict. We don't know why. Johnny Heidt with guitar news.Heard On The Show:Local, federal law enforcement presence in St. Paul draws crowd of protestersPEARL JAMBONIWisconsin seeks to block Morgan Geyser's conditional release after escape from group homeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

For Hour 2 of the show Jon talks about the University of Minnesota saying that there is a Whiteness Pandemic.

For Hour 2 of the show Jon talks about the University of Minnesota saying that there is a Whiteness Pandemic. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Dr Balazs Berkovits, a Hungarian-born sociologist and philosopher, and Dr. Sara Hirschhorn, an American-Israeli historian, discuss the complexity – and adverse effects – of attributing the "whiteness" category to Jews. This series is made possible by the Elizabeth and Tony Comper Center for the Study of Antisemitism and Racism at the University of Haifa.

Pluribus on Apple TV+ is a show that quickly devolves into chaos, as the world violently falls into what can be only described as a utopia. Our main character Carol is going through it, as she tries to wrap her mind around the events that are happening. The twist of this pseudo post-apocalypse is one that should be seen and not told, so if you haven't watch this yet, it's definitely worth the price of admission. Please! Subscribe where we are, especially here on YouTube

Mary Lovell is a queer grassroots organizer, visual artist, and activist who has been fighting oil and gas infrastructure and for social justice for their adult life - living up in the Kitsap Penninsula they are working on their first book  and love working with people to build power in their communitiesWelcome to the Arise podcast. This is episode 12, conversations on Reality. And today we're touching on organizing and what does it mean to organize? How do we organize? And we talk to a seasoned organizer, Mary Lavelle. And so Mary is a queer, grassroots organizer, visual artist and activist who has been fighting oil and gas infrastructure and fighting for social justice in their adult life. Living in the Kitsap Peninsula. They're working on their first book and love working with people to build power in their communities. Join us. I hope you stay curious and we continue the dialogue.Danielle (00:02):Okay, Mary, it's so great to have you today. Just want to hear a little bit about who you are, where you come from, how did you land? I know I met you in Kitsap County. Are you originally from here? Yeah. Just take itMary (00:15):Away. Yeah. So my name is Mary Lovel. I use she or they pronouns and I live in Washington State in Kitsap County. And then I have been organizing, I met Danielle through organizing, but I've spent most of my life organizing against oil and gas pipelines. I grew up in Washington state and then I moved up to Canada where there was a major oil pipeline crossing through where I was living. And so that got me engaged in social justice movements. That's the Transmountain pipeline, which it was eventually built, but we delayed it by a decade through a ton of different organizing, combination of lawsuits and direct action and all sorts of different tactics. And so I got to try and learn a lot of different things through that. And then now I'm living in Washington state and do a lot of different social justice bits and bobs of organizing, but mostly I'm focused on stopping. There's a major gas build out in Texas and Louisiana, and so I've been working with communities down there on pressuring financiers behind those oil and gas pipelines and major gas export. But all that to say, it's also like everyone is getting attacked on all sides. So I see it as a very intersectional fight of so many communities are being impacted by ice and the rise of the police state becoming even more prolific and surveillance becoming more prolific and all the things. So I see it as one little niche in a much larger fight. Yeah,Yeah, totally. I think when I moved up to Canada, I was just finished high school, was moving up for college, had been going to some of the anti-war marches that were happening at the time, but was very much along for the ride, was like, oh, I'll go to big stuff. But it was more like if there was a student walkout or someone else was organizing people. And then when I moved up to Canada, I just saw the history of the nation state there in a totally different way. I started learning about colonialism and understanding that the land that I had moved to was unseated Tu Squamish and Musqueam land, and started learning also about how resource extraction and indigenous rights went hand in hand. I think in general, in the Pacific Northwest and Coast Salish territories, the presence of indigenous communities is really a lot more visible than other parts of North America because of the timelines of colonization.(03:29):But basically when I moved and had a fresh set of eyes, I was seeing the major marginalization of indigenous communities in Canada and the way that racism was showing up against indigenous communities there and just the racial demographics are really different in Canada. And so then I was just seeing the impacts of that in just a new way, and it was just frankly really startling. It's the sheer number of people that are forced to be houseless and the disproportionate impacts on especially indigenous communities in Canada, where in the US it's just different demographics of folks that are facing houselessness. And it made me realize that the racial context is so different place to place. But anyways, so all that to say is that I started learning about the combination there was the rise of the idle, no more movement was happening. And so people were doing a lot of really large marches and public demonstrations and hunger strikes and all these different things around it, indigenous rights in Canada and in bc there was a major pipeline that people were fighting too.(04:48):And that was the first time that I understood that my general concerns about climate and air and water were one in the same with racial justice. And I think that that really motivated me, but I also think I started learning about it from an academic standpoint and then I was like, this is incredibly dumb. It's like all these people are just writing about this. Why is not anyone doing anything about it? I was going to Simon Fraser University and there was all these people writing whole entire books, and I was like, that's amazing that there's this writing and study and knowledge, but also people are prioritizing this academic lens when it's so disconnected from people's lived realities. I was just like, what the fuck is going on? So then I got involved in organizing and there was already a really robust organizing community that I plugged into there, but I just helped with a lot of different art stuff or a lot of different mass mobilizations and trainings and stuff like that. But yeah, then I just stuck with it. I kept learning so many cool things and meeting so many interesting people that, yeah, it's just inspiring.Jenny (06:14):No, that's okay. I obviously feel free to get into as much or as little of your own personal story as you want to, but I was thinking we talk a lot about reality on here, and I'm hearing that there was introduction to your reality based on your education and your experience. And for me, I grew up in a very evangelical world where the rapture was going to happen anytime and I wasn't supposed to be concerned with ecological things because this world was going to end and a new one was going to come. And I'm just curious, and you can speak again as broadly or specifically if the things you were learning were a reality shift for you or if it just felt like it was more in alignment with how you'd experienced being in a body on a planet already.Mary (07:08):Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting question. I think. So I grew up between Renton and Issaquah, which is not, it was rural when I was growing up. Now it's become suburban sprawl, but I spent almost all of my summers just playing outside and very hermit ish in a very kind of farm valley vibe. But then I would go into the city for cool punk art shows or whatever. When you're a teenager and you're like, this is the hippest thing ever. I would be like, wow, Seattle. And so when I moved up to Vancouver, it was a very big culture shock for me because of it just being an urban environment too, even though I think I was seeing a lot of the racial impacts and all of the, but also a lot of just that class division that's visible in a different way in an urban environment because you just have more folks living on the streets rather than living in precarious places, more dispersed the way that you see in rural environments.(08:21):And so I think that that was a real physical shift for me where it was walking around and seeing the realities people were living in and the environment that I was living in. It's like many, many different people were living in trailers or buses or a lot of different, it wasn't like a wealthy suburban environment, it was a more just sprawling farm environment. But I do think that that moving in my body from being so much of my time outside and so much of my time in really all of the stimulation coming from the natural world to then going to an urban environment and seeing that the crowding of people and pushing people into these weird living situations I felt like was a big wake up call for me. But yeah, I mean my parents are sort of a mixed bag. I feel like my mom is very lefty, she is very spiritual, and so I was exposed to a lot of different face growing up.(09:33):She is been deep in studying Buddhism for most of her life, but then also was raised Catholic. So it was one of those things where my parents were like, you have to go to Catholic school because that's how you get morals, even though both of them rejected Catholicism in different ways and had a lot of different forms of abuse through those systems, but then they're like, you have to do this because we had to do it anyways. So all that to say is that I feel like I got exposed to a lot of different religious forms of thought and spirituality, but I didn't really take that too far into organizing world. But I wasn't really forced into a box the same way. It wasn't like I was fighting against the idea of rapture or something like that. I was more, I think my mom especially is very open-minded about religion.(10:30):And then my dad, I had a really hard time with me getting involved in activism because he just sees it as really high risk talk to me for after I did a blockade for a couple months or different things like that. Over the course of our relationship, he's now understands why I'm doing what I'm doing. He's learned a lot about climate and I think the way that this social movements can create change, he's been able to see that because of learning through the news and being more curious about it over time. But definitely that was more of the dynamic is a lot of you shouldn't do that because you should keep yourself safe and that won't create change. It's a lot of the, anyways,I imagine too getting involved, even how Jenny named, oh, I came from this space, and Mary, you came from this space. I came from a different space as well, just thinking. So you meet all these different kinds of people with all these different kinds of ideas about how things might work. And obviously there's just three of us here, and if we were to try to organize something, we would have three distinct perspectives with three distinct family origins and three distinct ways of coming at it. But when you talk about a grander scale, can you give any examples or what you've seen works and doesn't work in your own experience, and how do you personally navigate different personalities, maybe even different motivations for getting something done? Yeah,Mary (12:30):Yeah. I think that's one of the things that's constantly intention, I feel like in all social movements is some people believe, oh, you should run for mayor in order to create the city environment that you want. Or some people are like, oh, if only we did lawsuits. Why don't we just sue the bastards? We can win that way. And then the other people are like, why spend the money and the time running for these institutions that are set up to create harm? And we should just blockade them and shift them through enough pressure, which is sort of where I fall in the political scheme I guess. But to me, it's really valuable to have a mix where I'm like, okay, when you have both inside and outside negotiation and pressure, I feel like that's what can create the most change because basically whoever your target is then understands your demands.(13:35):And so if you aren't actually clearly making your demands seen and heard and understood, then all the outside pressure in the world, they'll just dismiss you as being weird wing nuts. So I think that's where I fall is that you have to have both and that those will always be in disagreement because anyone doing inside negotiation with any kind of company or government is always going to be awkwardly in the middle between your outside pressure and what the target demand is. And so they'll always be trying to be wishy-washy and water down your demands or water down the, yeah. So anyways, all that to say is so I feel like there's a real range there, and I find myself in the most disagreements with the folks that are doing inside negotiations unless they're actually accountable to the communities. I think that my main thing that I've seen over the years as people that are doing negotiations with either corporations or with the government often wind up not including the most directly impacted voices and shooing them out of the room or not actually being willing to cede power, agreeing to terms that are just not actually what the folks on the ground want and celebrating really small victories.(15:06):So yeah, I don't know. That's where a lot of the tension is, I think. But I really just believe in the power of direct action and arts and shifting culture. I feel like the most effective things that I've seen is honestly spaghetti on the wall strategy where you just try everything. You don't actually know what's going to move these billionaires.(15:32):They have huge budgets and huge strategies, but it's also if you can create, bring enough people with enough diverse skill sets into the room and then empower them to use their skillsets and cause chaos for whoever the target is, where it's like they are stressed out by your existence, then they wind up seeding to your demands because they're just like, we need this problem to go away. So I'm like, how do we become a problem that's really hard to ignore? It's basically my main strategy, which sounds silly. A lot of people hate it when I answer this way too. So at work or in other places, people think that I should have a sharper strategy and I'm like, okay, but actually does anyone know the answer to this question? No, let's just keep rolling anyways. But I do really going after the financiers or SubT targets too.(16:34):That's one of the things that just because sometimes it's like, okay, if you're going to go after Geo Corp or Geo Group, I mean, or one of the other major freaking giant weapons manufacturers or whatever, it just fully goes against their business, and so they aren't going to blink even at a lot of the campaigns, they will get startled by it versus the people that are the next layer below them that are pillars of support in the community, they'll waffle like, oh, I don't want to actually be associated with all those war crimes or things like that. So I like sub targets, but those can also be weird distractions too, depending on what it is. So yeah, really long. IDanielle (17:24):Dunno how you felt, Jenny, but I feel all those tensions around organizing that you just said, I felt myself go like this as you went through it because you didn't. Exactly. I mean nothing. I agree it takes a broad strategy. I think I agree with you on that, but sitting in the room with people with broad perspectives and that disagree is so freaking uncomfortable. It's so much just to soothe myself in that environment and then how to know to balance that conversation when those people don't even really like each other maybe.Mary (17:57):Oh yeah. And you're just trying to avoid having people get in an actual fight. Some of the organizing against the banger base, for instance, I find really inspiring because of them having ex submarine captains and I'm like, okay, I'm afraid of talking to folks that have this intense military perspective, but then when they walk away from their jobs and actually want to help a movement, then you're like, okay, we have to organize across difference. But it's also to what end, it's like are you going to pull the folks that are coming from really diverse perspectives further left through your organizing or are you just trying to accomplish a goal with them to shift one major entity or I dunno. But yeah, it's very stressful. I feel like trying to avoid getting people in a fight is also a role myself or trying to avoid getting invites myself.Jenny (19:09):That was part of what I was wondering is if you've over time found that there are certain practices or I hate this word protocols or ways of engaging folks, that feels like intentional chaos and how do you kind of steward that chaos rather than it just erupting in a million different places or maybe that is part of the process even. But just curious how you've found that kind ofMary (19:39):Yeah, I love doing calendaring with people so that people can see one another's work and see the value of both inside and outside pressure and actually map it out together so that they aren't feeling overwhelmed by the prospect of one sort of train of thought leading. Do you know what I mean? Where it's like if people see all of this DC based blobbing happening, that's very much less so during the current administration, but for example, then they might be frustrated and feel like, where is our pressure campaign or where is our movement building work versus if you actually just map out those moments together and then see how they can be in concert. I feel like that's my real, and it's a bit harder to do with lawsuit stuff because it's just so much not up to social movements about when that happens because the courts are just long ass processes that are just five years later they announced something and you're like, what?(20:53):But for the things that you can pace internally, I feel like that is a big part of it. And I find that when people are working together in coalition, there's a lot of communities that I work with that don't get along, but they navigate even actively disliking each other in order to share space, in order to build a stronger coalition. And so that's to me is really inspiring. And sometimes that will blow up and become a frustrating source of drama where it's like you have two frontline leaders that are coming from a very different social movement analysis if one is coming from economic justice and is coming from the working class white former oil worker line of thinking. And then you have a community organizer that's been grown up in the civil rights movement and is coming from a black feminism and is a black organizer with a big family. Some of those tensions will brew up where it's like, well, I've organized 200 oil workers and then you've organized a whole big family, and at the end of the day, a lot of the former oil workers are Trumpers and then a lot of the black fam is we have generations of beef with y'all.(22:25):We have real lived history of you actually sorting our social progress. So then you wind up in this coalition dynamic where you're like, oh fuck. But it's also if they both give each other space to organize and see when you're organizing a march or something like that, even having contingent of people coming or things like that, that can be really powerful. And I feel like that's the challenge and the beauty of the moment that we're in where you're like you have extreme social chaos in so many different levels and even people on the right are feeling it.Danielle (23:12):Yeah, I agree. I kind of wonder what you would say to this current moment and the coalition, well, the people affected is broadening, and so I think the opportunity for the Coalition for Change is broadening and how do we do that? How do we work? Exactly. I think you pinned it. You have the oil person versus this other kind of family, but I feel that, and I see that especially around snap benefits or food, it's really hard when you're at the government level, it's easy to say, well, those people don't deserve that dah, dah, dah, right? But then you're in your own community and you ask anybody, Hey, let's get some food for a kid. They're like, yeah, almost no one wants to say no to that. So I don't know, what are you kind of hearing? What are you feeling as I say that?Mary (24:11):Yeah, I definitely feel like we're in a moment of great social upheaval where I feel like the class analysis that people have is really growing when have people actually outright called the government fascist and an oligarchy for years that was just a very niche group of lefties saying that. And then now we have a broad swath of people actually explicitly calling out the classism and the fascism that we're seeing rising. And you're seeing a lot of people that are really just wanting to support their communities because they're feeling the impacts of cost of living and feeling the impacts of all these social programs being cut. And also I think having a lot more visibility into the violence of the police state too. And I think, but yeah, it's hard to know exactly what to do with all that momentum. It feels like there's a huge amount of momentum that's possible right now.(25:24):And there's also not a lot of really solid places for people to pour their energy into of multiracial coalitions with a specific demand set that can shift something, whether it be at the state level or city level or federal level. It feels like there's a lot of dispersed energy and you have these mass mobilizations, but then that I feel excited about the prospect of actually bringing people together across difference. I feel like it really is. A lot of people are really demystified so many people going out to protests. My stepmom started going out to a lot of the no kings protests when she hasn't been to any protest over the whole course of her life. And so it's like people being newly activated and feeling a sense of community in the resistance to the state, and that's just really inspiring. You can't take that moment back away from people when they've actually gone out to a protest.(26:36):Then when they see protests, they know what it feels like to be there. But yeah, I feel like I'm not really sure honestly what to do with all of the energy. And I think I also have been, and I know a lot of other organizers are in this space of grieving and reflecting and trying to get by and they aren't necessarily stepping up into a, I have a strategy, please follow me role that could be really helpful for mentorship for people. And instead it feels like there's a bit of a vacuum, but that's also me calling from my living room in Kitsap County. I don't have a sense of what's going on in urban environments really or other places. There are some really cool things going on in Seattle for people that are organizing around the city's funding of Tesla or building coalitions that are both around defunding the police and also implementing climate demands or things like that. And then I also feel like I'm like, people are celebrating that Dick Cheney died. Fuck yes. I'm like, people are a lot more just out there with being honest about how they feel about war criminals and then you have that major win in New York and yeah, there's some little beacons of hope. Yeah. What do you all think?Jenny (28:16):I just find myself really appreciating the word coalition. I think a lot of times I use the word collective, and I think it was our dear friend Rebecca a couple of weeks ago was like, what do you mean by collective? What are you saying by that? And I was struggling to figure that out, and I think coalition feels a lot more honest. It feels like it has space for the diversity and the tensions and the conflicts within trying to perhaps pursue a similar goal. And so I just find myself really appreciating that language. And I was thinking about several years ago I did an embodied social justice certificate and one of the teachers was talking about white supremacy and is a professor in a university. I was like, I'm aware of representing white supremacy in a university and speaking against it, and I'm a really big believer in termites, and I just loved that idea of I myself, I think it's perhaps because I think I am neurodivergent and I don't do well in any type of system, and so I consider myself as one of those that will be on the outside doing things and I've grown my appreciation for those that have the brains or stamina or whatever is required to be one of those people that works on it from the inside.(29:53):So those are some of my thoughts. What about you, Danielle?Danielle (30:03):I think a lot about how we move where it feels like this, Mary, you're talking about people are just quiet and I know I spent weeks just basically being with my family at home and the food thing came up and I've been motivated for that again, and I also just find myself wanting to be at home like cocoon. I've been out to some of the marches and stuff, said hi to people or did different things when I have energy, but they're like short bursts and I don't feel like I have a very clear direction myself on what is the long-term action, except I was telling friends recently art and food, if I can help people make art and we can eat together, that feels good to me right now. And those are the only two things that have really resonated enough for me to have creative energy, and maybe that's something to the exhaustion you're speaking about and I don't know, I mean Mary A. Little bit, and I know Jenny knows, I spent a group of us spent years trying to advocate for English language learners here at North and in a nanosecond, Trump comes along and just Fs it all, Fs up the law, violates the law, violates funding all of this stuff in a nanosecond, and you're like, well, what do you do about that?(31:41):It doesn't mean you stop organizing at the local level, but there is something of a punch to the gut about it.Mary (31:48):Oh yeah, no, people are just getting punched in the gut all over the place and then you're expected to just keep on rolling and moving and you're like, alright, well I need time to process. But then it feels like you can just be stuck in this pattern of just processing because they just keep throwing more and more shit at you and you're like, ah, let us hide and heal for a little bit, and then you're like, wait, that's not what I'm supposed to be doing right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's intense. And yeah, I feel that the sense of need for art and food is a great call. Those things are restorative too, where you're like, okay, how can I actually create a space that feels healthy and generative when so much of that's getting taken away? I also speaking to your somatic stuff, Jenny, I recently started doing yoga and stretching stuff again after just years of not because I was like, oh, I have all this shit all locked up in my body and I'm not even able to process when I'm all locked up. Wild. Yeah.Danielle (33:04):Yeah. I fell in a hole almost two weeks ago, a literal concrete hole, and I think the hole was meant for my husband Luis. He actually has the worst luck than me. I don't usually do that shit meant I was walking beside him, I was walking beside of him. He is like, you disappeared. I was like, it's because I stepped in and I was in the moment. My body was like, oh, just roll. And then I went to roll and I was like, well, I should put my hand out. I think it's concrete. So I sprained my right ankle, I sprained my right hand, I smashed my knees on the concrete. They're finally feeling better, but that's how I feel when you talk about all of this. I felt like the literal both sides of my body and I told a friend at the gym is like, I don't think I can be mortal combat because when my knees hurt, it's really hard for me to do anything. So if I go into any, I'm conscripted or anything happens to me, I need to wear knee pads.Jenny (34:48):Yeah. I literally Googled today what does it mean if you just keep craving cinnamon? And Google was like, you probably need sweets, which means you're probably very stressed. I was like, oh, yeah. It's just interesting to me all the ways that our bodies speak to us, whether it's through that tension or our cravings, it's like how do we hold that tension of the fact that we are animal bodies that have very real needs and the needs of our communities, of our coalitions are exceeding what it feels like we have individual capacity for, which I think is part of the point. It's like let's make everything so unbelievably shitty that people have a hard time just even keeping up. And so it feels at times difficult to tend to my body, and I'm trying to remember, I have to tend to my body in order to keep the longevity that is necessary for this fight, this reconstruction that's going to take probably longer than my life will be around, and so how do I keep just playing my part in it while I'm here?Mary (36:10):Yeah. That's very wise, Jenny. I feel like the thing that I've been thinking about a lot as winter settles in is that I've been like, right, okay, trees lose their leaves and just go dormant. It's okay for me to just go dormant and that doesn't mean that I'm dead. I think that's been something that I've been thinking about too, where it's like, yeah, it's frustrating to see the urgency of this time and know that you're supposed to be rising to the occasion and then also be in your dormancy or winter, but I do feel like there is something to that, the nurturing of the roots that happens when plants aren't focused on growing upwards. I think that that's also one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about in organizing, especially for some of the folks that are wanting to organize but aren't sure a lot of the blockade tactics that they were interested in pursuing now feel just off the table for the amount of criminalization or problems that they would face for it. So then it's like, okay, but how do we go back and nurture our roots to be stronger in the long run and not just disappear into the ether too?Danielle (37:31):I do feel that, especially being in Washington, I feel like this is the hibernation zone. It's when my body feels cozy at night and I don't want to be out, and it means I want to just be with my family more for me, and I've just given myself permission for that for weeks now because it's really what I wanted to do and I could tell my kids craved it too, and my husband and I just could tell they needed it, and so I was surprised I needed it too. I like to be out and I like to be with people, but I agree, Mary, I think we get caught up in trying to grow out that we forget that we do need to really take care of our bodies. And I know you were saying that too, Jenny. I mean, Jenny Jenny's the one that got me into somatic therapy pretty much, so if I roll out of this telephone booth, you can blame Jenny. That's great.Mary (38:39):That's perfect. Yeah, somatics are real. Oh, the cinnamon thing, because cinnamon is used to regulate your blood sugar. I don't know if you realize that a lot of people that have diabetes or insulin resistant stuff, it's like cinnamon helps see your body with sugar regulation, so that's probably why Google was telling you that too.Jenny (39:04):That is really interesting. I do have to say it was one of those things, I got to Vermont and got maple syrup and I was like, I don't think I've ever actually tasted maple syrup before, so now I feel like I've just been drinking it all day. So good. Wait,Mary (39:29):That's amazing. Also, it's no coincidence that those are the fall flavors, right? Like maple and cinnamon and all the Totally, yeah. Cool.Danielle (39:42):So Mary, what wisdom would you give to folks at whatever stage they're in organizing right now? If you could say, Hey, this is something I didn't know even last week, but I know now. Is there something you'd want to impart or give away?Mary (39:59):I think the main thing is really just to use your own skills. Don't feel like you have to follow along with whatever structure someone is giving you for organizing. It's like if you're an artist, use that. If you're a writer, use that. If you make film, use that, don't pigeonhole yourself into that. You have to be a letter writer because that's the only organized thing around you. I think that's the main thing that I always feel like is really exciting to me is people, if you're a coder, there's definitely activists that need help with websites or if you're an accountant, there are so many organizations that are ready to just get audited and then get erased from this world and they desperately need you. I feel like there's a lot of the things that I feel like when you're getting involved in social movements. The other thing that I want to say right now is that people have power.(40:55):It's like, yes, we're talking about falling in holes and being fucking exhausted, but also even in the midst of this, a community down in Corpus Christi just won a major fight against a desalination plant where they were planning on taking a bunch of water out of their local bay and then removing the salt from it in order to then use the water for the oil and gas industry. And that community won a campaign through city level organizing, which is just major because basically they have been in a multi-year intense drought, and so their water supply is really, really critical for the whole community around them. And so the fact that they won against this desal plant is just going to be really important for decades to come, and that was one under the Trump administration. They were able to win it because it was a city level fight.(42:05):Also, the De Express pipeline got canceled down in Texas and Louisiana, which is a major pipeline expansion that was going to feed basically be a feeder pipeline to a whole pipeline system in Mexico and LNG export there. There's like, and that was just two weeks ago maybe, but it feels like there's hardly any news about it because people are so focused on fighting a lot of these larger fights, but I just feel like it's possible to win still, and people are very much feeling, obviously we aren't going to win a lot of major things under fascism, but it's also still possible to create change at a local level and not the state can't take everything from us. They're trying to, and also it's a fucking gigantic country, so thinking about them trying to manage all of us is just actually impossible for them to do it. They're having to offer, yes, the sheer number of people that are working for ICE is horrific, and also they're offering $50,000 signing bonuses because no one actually wants to work for ice.(43:26):They're desperately recruiting, and it's like they're causing all of this economic imbalance and uncertainty and chaos in order to create a military state. They're taking away the SNAP benefits so that people are hungry enough and desperate enough to need to steal food so that they can criminalize people, so that they can build more jails so that they can hire more police. They're doing all of these things strategically, but also they can't actually stop all of the different social movement organizers or all of the communities that are coming together because it's just too big of a region that they're trying to govern. So I feel like that's important to recognize all of the ways that we can win little bits and bobs, and it doesn't feel like, it's not like this moment feels good, but it also doesn't, people I think, are letting themselves believe what the government is telling them that they can't resist and that they can't win. And so it's just to me important to add a little bit more nuance of that. What the government's doing is strategic and also we can also still win things and that, I don't know, it's like we outnumber them, but yeah, that's my pep talk, pep Ted talk.Mary (45:18):And just the number of Canadians that texted me being like, mom, Donny, they're just like, everyone is seeing that it's, having the first Muslim be in a major political leadership role in New York is just fucking awesome, wild, and I'm also skeptical of all levels of government, but I do feel like that's just an amazing win for the people. Also, Trump trying to get in with an endorsement as if that would help. It's hilarious. Honestly,Mary (46:41):Yeah. I also feel like the snap benefits thing is really going to be, it reminds me of that quote, they tried to bury us, but we were seeds quote where I'm just like, oh, this is going to actually bite you so hard. You're now creating an entire generation of people that's discontent with the government, which I'm like, okay, maybe this is going to have a real negative impact on children that are going hungry. And also it's like to remember that they're spending billions on weapons instead of feeding people. That is so radicalizing for so many people that I just am like, man, I hope this bites them in the long term. I just am like, it's strategic for them for trying to get people into prisons and terrible things like that, but it's also just woefully unstrategic when you think about it long term where you're like, okay, have whole families just hating you.Jenny (47:57):It makes me think of James Baldwin saying not everything that's faced can be changed, but nothing can be changed until it's faced. And I feel like so many of these things are forcing folks who have had privilege to deny the class wars and the oligarchy and all of these things that have been here forever, but now that it's primarily affecting white bodies, it's actually forcing some of those white bodies to confront how we've gotten here in the first place. And that gives me a sense of hope.Mary (48:48):Oh, great. Thank you so much for having me. It was so nice to talk to y'all. I hope that you have a really good rest of your day, and yeah, really appreciate you hosting these important convos. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Today we begin with Nick Fuentes—how did he go from a guy with Jewish friends, to someone who is proudly anti-Semitic? Why does “anti-Semitic” now have so many meanings? What are the differences between preference, discrimination, and bigotry? Then: Bill Gates changes his tune on climate change—or does he? His new memo still sounds the alarm about Carbon, but also privileges his pet projects of vaccinating the world and handing agriculture to the technologists. Finally: manta rays, how smart they are, how they respond to mirrors, and how much time they spend at the spa.*****Our sponsors:Branch Basics: Get 15% off Branch Basics with the code DARKHORSE at https://branchbasics.com/darkhorse #branchbasicspodFresh Pressed Olive Oil Club: Scrumptious & freshly harvested. Go to http://www.GetFreshDarkHorse.com to get a bottle of the best olive oil you've ever had for $1 shipping.Uplift Desk: Elevate your workspace with UPLIFT Desk. Go to https://upliftdesk.com/DARKHORSE for a special offer exclusive to our audience.*****Join us on Locals! Get access to our Discord server, exclusive live streams, live chats for all streams, and early access to many podcasts: https://darkhorse.locals.comHeather's newsletter, Natural Selections (subscribe to get free weekly essays in your inbox): https://naturalselections.substack.comOur book, A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century, is available everywhere books are sold, including from Amazon: https://amzn.to/3AGANGg (commission earned)Check out our store! Epic tabby, digital book burning, saddle up the dire wolves, and more: https://darkhorsestore.org*****Mentioned in this episode:Fuentes on Tucker Carlson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efBB0D4tf1YBret on dual citizenship: https://x.com/BretWeinstein/status/1825602620192698812Speak of the Devil: How Demonizing "Whiteness" Spreads White Nationalism – Bret in 2019: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1sJgjG5AF4&t=227sBob Murphy analyzing Fuentes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSDs_2narcw&t=698sClipped by: https://www.youtube.com/@hamannatureBill Gates memo: https://www.gatesnotes.com/home/home-page-topic/reader/three-tough-truths-about-climateAri & D'Agostino 2016. Contingency checking and self-directed behaviors in giant manta rays: Do elasmobranchs have self-awareness?. Journal of Ethology 34(2): 167-174:https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10164-016-0462-zSupport the show

It's a question we ask a lot on this show: do you have a mental health problem or is the problem actually rooted in the world you live in? Psychologist Dr. Jonathan Mathias Lassiter says contemporary society lives under three different assumptions: there's not enough to go around, kill or be killed, and us versus them or divide and conquer and this results in people valuing individualism, competition, and materialism. This way of living, he says, is a result of white dominance or whiteness and it is a distortion of the way humans are meant to live and therefore leads to things like racism, sexism, homophobia, and the brutality of human beings to one another. Dr. Lassiter, author of How I Know White People Are Crazy and Other Stories says whiteness is not a mental health disorder but it is a mental health problem that we all need to face. Dr. Lassiter tells his own story, growing up with a chronic illness, gay, and Black in the South and eventually earning his PhD. in psychology. As he came to understand psychology and the way the world works, he noticed the impact of society's built-in obstacles on his own mental health journey and among the students and clients he has helped.Thank you to all our listeners who support the show as monthly members of Maximum Fun.Check out our I'm Glad You're Here and Depresh Mode merchandise at the brand new merch website MaxFunStore.com!Hey, remember, you're part of Depresh Mode and we want to hear what you want to hear about. What guests and issues would you like to have covered in a future episode? Write us at depreshmode@maximumfun.org.Depresh Mode is on BlueSky, Instagram, Substack, and you can join our Preshies Facebook group. Help is available right away.The National Suicide Prevention Lifeline: 988 or 1-800-273-8255, 1-800-273-TALKCrisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741.International suicide hotline numbers available here: https://www.opencounseling.com/suicide-hotlines

Boortz takes apart another example of academic insanity. According to a feminist scholar, Taylor Swift’s new album is a “magnum opus of white supremacy.” Why? All because of a lyric about wanting kids who look like her fiancé.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Boortz takes apart another example of academic insanity. According to a feminist scholar, Taylor Swift’s new album is a “magnum opus of white supremacy.” Why? All because of a lyric about wanting kids who look like her fiancé.Atlanta's ONLY All Conservative News & Talk Station.: https://www.xtra1063.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What do BLM, Andrew Tate's "Christ is King" and the communist fist on a cross have in common? They're all part of the Marxist hijacking of black culture—turning biblical black America (low crime, strong families) into today's chaos of fatherlessness, matriarchy, and ethnic idolatry. In this raw episode, Kevin is joined by Adam B. Coleman, Sam Sey, Lennox Kalifungwa and others to decode the word "Whiteness" and challenge black Christians with the question: Is it Christ first or black first? Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8uyMDgaoKg #BlackCulture #MarxismExposed #TrueChristianity #TearDownWhiteness #BLMTruth #ChristIsKing #OffCode #CultureWar #BiblicalUnity

In this latest edition of the recurring The Two Kens collaborative series, Fong and Kemp explain both the irony of how he died and the Right's insistence on nationwide posthumous empathy and acclaim for him. Using his own words to substantiate their opinions, they make the case that Kirk's inflammatory rhetoric should not now be santized, nor should he be lionized and honored as an American hero and icon of free speech. 

On this new episode of THE POLITICRAT daily podcast Omar Moore talks about Black people, who have been way past sick and tired of this anti-Black racism and violent, continuous attacks by white people over the last 400 years in the USA. And: When will white people get a divorce from whiteness? Plus: Janai Nelson, President of the NAACP Legal Defense Fund fights valiantly for section 2 of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 in oral arguments before the US Supreme Court.Recorded October 16, 2025.STORY:The young white Republican racists (Politico story)https://www.politico.com/news/2025/10/14/private-chat-among-young-gop-club-members-00592146Journalists at the Pentagon turn in their access badges, refusing to bow to new and dictatorial rules (AP)https://apnews.com/article/pentagon-press-access-hegseth-trump-restrictions-5d9c2a63e4e03b91fc1546bb09ffbf12RECOMMENDED BOOKS"I'm Still Here: Black Dignity In A World Made For Whiteness", by Austin Channing Brown"Before The Mayflower: A History Of Black America", by Lerone Bennett Jr"Without Precedent" (on John Roberts' mendacity), by Lisa Graves"The Counterrevolution of 1776: Slave Uprisings And The Origins Of The United States Of America", by Prof Gerald HorneVP HARRIS BOOK TOUR: https://107daysbook.comSUBSCRIBE: https://mooreo.substack.comSUBSCRIBE: https://youtube.com/@thepoliticratpodSUBSCRIBE: https://politicrat.substack.comBUY MERCH FROM THE POLITICRAT STORE: https://the-politicrat.myshopify.comPLEASE READ: "Some Ways To Improve Your Mental Health..." (Written on August 24, 2025) : https://open.substack.com/pub/mooreo/p/here-are-some-of-the-ways-you-can?r=275tyr&utm_medium=iosBUY BLACK!Patronize Lanny Smith's Actively Black apparel business: https://activelyblack.comPatronize Melanin Haircare: https://melaninhaircare.comPatronize Black-owned businesses on Roland Martin's Black Star Network: https://shopblackstarnetwork.comBLACK-OWNED MEDIA MATTERS: (Watch Roland Martin Unfiltered daily M-F 6-8pm Eastern)https://youtube.com/rolandsmartin Download the Black Star Network app

BIO:The Reverend Dr. Starlette Thomas is a poet, practical theologian, and itinerant prophet for a coming undivided “kin-dom.” She is the director of The Raceless Gospel Initiative, named for her work and witness and an associate editor at Good Faith Media. Starlette regularly writes on the sociopolitical construct of race and its longstanding membership in the North American church. Her writings have been featured in Sojourners, Red Letter Christians, Free Black Thought, Word & Way, Plough, Baptist News Global and Nurturing Faith Journal among others. She is a frequent guest on podcasts and has her own. The Raceless Gospel podcast takes her listeners to a virtual church service where she and her guests tackle that taboo trinity— race, religion, and politics. Starlette is also an activist who bears witness against police brutality and most recently the cultural erasure of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. It was erected in memory of the 2020 protests that brought the world together through this shared declaration of somebodiness after the gruesome murder of George Perry Floyd, Jr. Her act of resistance caught the attention of the Associated Press. An image of her reclaiming the rubble went viral and in May, she was featured in a CNN article.Starlette has spoken before the World Council of Churches North America and the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops on the color- coded caste system of race and its abolition. She has also authored and presented papers to the members of the Baptist World Alliance in Zurich, Switzerland and Nassau, Bahamas to this end. She has cast a vision for the future of religion at the National Museum of African American History and Culture's “Forward Conference: Religions Envisioning Change.” Her paper was titled “Press Forward: A Raceless Gospel for Ex- Colored People Who Have Lost Faith in White Supremacy.” She has lectured at The Queen's Foundation in Birmingham, U.K. on a baptismal pedagogy for antiracist theological education, leadership and ministries. Starlette's research interests have been supported by the Louisville Institute and the Lilly Foundation. Examining the work of the Reverend Dr. Clarence Jordan, whose farm turned “demonstration plot” in Americus, Georgia refused to agree to the social arrangements of segregation because of his Christian convictions, Starlette now takes this dirt to the church. Her thesis is titled, “Afraid of Koinonia: How life on this farm reveals the fear of Christian community.” A full circle moment, she was recently invited to write the introduction to Jordan's newest collection of writings, The Inconvenient Gospel: A Southern Prophet Tackles War, Wealth, Race and Religion.Starlette is a member of the Christian Community Development Association, the Peace & Justice Studies Association, and the Koinonia Advisory Council. A womanist in ministry, she has served as a pastor as well as a denominational leader. An unrepentant academician and bibliophile, Starlette holds degrees from Buffalo State College, Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School and Wesley Theological Seminary. Last year, she was awarded an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology for her work and witness as a public theologian from Wayland Baptist Theological Seminary. She is the author of "Take Me to the Water": The Raceless Gospel as Baptismal Pedagogy for a Desegregated Church and a contributing author of the book Faith Forward: A Dialogue on Children, Youth & a New Kind of Christianity.  JennyI was just saying that I've been thinking a lot about the distinction between Christianity and Christian supremacy and Christian nationalism, and I have been researching Christian nationalism for probably about five or six years now. And one of my introductions to the concept of it was a book that's based on a documentary that's based on a book called Constantine Sword. And it talked about how prior to Constantine, Christians had the image of fish and life and fertility, and that is what they lived by. And then Constantine supposedly had this vision of a cross and it said, with this sign, you shall reign. And he married the church and the state. And ever since then, there's been this snowball effect of Christian empire through the Crusades, through manifest destiny, through all of these things that we're seeing play out in the United States now that aren't new. But I think there's something new about how it's playing out right now.Danielle (02:15):I was thinking about the doctrine of discovery and how that was the creation of that legal framework and ideology to justify the seizure of indigenous lands and the subjugation of indigenous peoples. And just how part of that doctrine you have to necessarily make the quote, humans that exist there, you have to make them vacant. Or even though they're a body, you have to see them as internally maybe empty or lacking or less. And that really becomes this frame. Well, a repeated frame.Jenny (03:08):Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like that's so much source to that when that dehumanization is ordained by God. If God is saying these people who we're not even going to look at as people, we're going to look at as objects, how do we get out of that?Danielle (03:39):I don't know. Well, definitely still in it. You can hear folks like Charlie Kirk talk about it and unabashedly, unashamedly turning point USA talk about doctrine of discovery brings me currently to these fishing boats that have been jetting around Venezuela. And regardless of what they're doing, the idea that you could just kill them regardless of international law, regardless of the United States law, which supposedly we have the right to a process, the right to due process, the right to show up in a court and we're presumed innocent. But this doctrine applies to people manifest destiny, this doctrine of discovery. It applies to others that we don't see as human and therefore can snuff out life. And I think now they're saying on that first boat, I think they've blown up four boats total. And on the first boat, one of the ladies is speaking out, saying they were out fishing and the size of the boat. I think that's where you get into reality. The size of the boat doesn't indicate a large drug seizure anyway. It's outside reality. And again, what do you do if they're smuggling humans? Did you just destroy all that human life? Or maybe they're just fishing. So I guess that doctrine and that destiny, it covers all of these immoral acts, it kind of washes them clean. And I guess that talking about Constantine, it feels like the empire needed a way to do that, to absolve themselves.Danielle (05:40):I know it gives me both comfort and makes me feel depressed when I think about people in 300 ad being, they're freaking throwing people into the lion's den again and people are cheering. And I have to believe that there were humans at that time that saw the barbarism for what it was. And that gives me hope that there have always been a few people in a system of tyranny and oppression that are like, what the heck is going on? And it makes me feel like, ugh. When does that get to be more than just the few people in a society kind of society? Or what does a society need to not need such violence? Because I think it's so baked in now to these white and Christian supremacy, and I don't know, in my mind, I don't think I can separate white supremacy from Christian supremacy because even before White was used as a legal term to own people and be able to vote, the legal term was Christian. And then when enslaved folks started converting to Christianity, they pivoted and said, well, no, not all Christians. It has to be white Christians. And so I think white supremacy was birthed out of a long history of Christian supremacy.Danielle (07:21):Yeah, it's weird. I remember growing up, and maybe you had this experience too, I remember when Schindler's List hit the theaters and you were probably too young, but Schindler's listed the theaters, and I remember sitting in a living room and having to convince my parents of why I wanted to see it. And I think I was 16, I don't remember. I was young and it was rated R and of course that was against our values to see rated R movies. But I really wanted to see this movie. And I talked and talked and talked and got to see this movie if anybody's watched Schindler's List, it's a story of a man who is out to make money, sees this opportunity to get free labor basically as part of the Nazi regime. And so he starts making trades to access free labor, meanwhile, still has women, enjoys a fine life, goes to church, has a pseudo faith, and as time goes along, I'm shortening the story, but he gets this accountant who he discovers he loves because his accountant makes him rich. He makes him rich off the labor. But the accountant is thinking, how do I save more lives and get them into this business with Schindler? Well, eventually they get captured, they get found out. All these things happen, right, that we know. And it becomes clear to Schindler that they're exterminating, they're wiping out an entire population.(09:01):I guess I come to that and just think about, as a young child, I remember watching that thinking, there's no way this would ever happen again because there's film, there's documentation. At the time, there were people alive from the Great war, the greatest generation like my grandfather who fought in World War ii. There were other people, we had the live stories. But now just a decade, 12, 13 years removed, it hasn't actually been that long. And the memory of watching a movie like Schindler's List, the impact of seeing what it costs a soul to take the life of other souls like that, that feels so far removed now. And that's what the malaise of the doctrine of Discovery and manifest destiny, I think have been doing since Constantine and Christianity. They've been able to wipe the memory, the historical memory of the evil done with their blessing.(10:06):And I feel like even this huge thing like the Holocaust, the memories being wiped, you can almost feel it. And in fact, people are saying, I don't know if they actually did that. I don't know if they killed all these Jewish peoples. Now you hear more denial even of the Holocaust now that those storytellers aren't passed on to the next life. So I think we are watching in real time how Christianity and Constantine were able to just wipe use empire to wipe the memory of the people so they can continue to gain riches or continue to commit atrocities without impunity just at any level. I guess that's what comes to mind.Jenny (10:55):Yeah, it makes me think of, I saw this video yesterday and I can't remember what representative it was in a hearing and she had written down a long speech or something that she was going to give, and then she heard during the trial the case what was happening was someone shared that there have been children whose parents have been abducted and disappeared because the children were asked at school, are your parents undocumented? And she said, I can't share what I had prepared because I'm caught with that because my grandfather was killed in the Holocaust because his children were asked at school, are your parents Jewish?(11:53):And my aunt took that guilt with her to her grave. And the amount of intergenerational transgenerational trauma that is happening right now, that never again is now what we are doing to families, what we are doing to people, what we are doing to children, the atrocities that are taking place in our country. Yeah, it's here. And I think it's that malaise has come over not only the past, but even current. I think people don't even know how to sit with the reality of the horror of what's happening. And so they just dissociate and they just check out and they don't engage the substance of what's happening.Danielle (13:08):Yeah. I tell a friend sometimes when I talk to her, I just say, I need you to tap in. Can you just tap in? Can you just carry the conversation or can you just understand? And I don't mean understand, believe a story. I mean feel the story. It's one thing to say the words, but it's another thing to feel them. And I think Constantine is a brilliant guy. He took a peaceful religion. He took a peaceful faith practice, people that literally the prior guy was throwing to the lions for sport. He took a people that had been mocked, a religious group that had been mocked, and he elevated them and then reunified them with that sword that you're talking about. And so what did those Christians have to give up then to marry themselves to empire? I don't know, but it seems like they kind of effed us over for eternity, right?Jenny (14:12):Yeah. Well, and I think that that's part of it. I think part of the malaise is the infatuation with eternity and with heaven. And I know for myself, when I was a missionary for many years, I didn't care about my body because this body, this light and momentary suffering paled in comparison to what was awaiting me. And so no matter what happened, it was a means to an end to spend eternity with Jesus. And so I think of empathy as us being able to feel something of ourselves in someone else. If I don't have grief and joy and sorrow and value for this body, I'm certainly not going to have it for other bodies. And I think the disembodiment of white Christian supremacy is what enables bodies to just tolerate and not consider the brutality of what we're seeing in the United States. What we're seeing in Congo, what we're seeing in Palestine, what we're seeing everywhere is still this sense of, oh, the ends are going to justify the means we're all going to, at least I'll be in heaven and everyone else can kind of figure out what they're going to do.I don't know, man. Yeah, maybe. I guess when you think about Christian nationalism versus maybe a more authentic faith, what separates them for youAbiding by the example that Jesus gave or not. I mean, Jesus was killed by the state because he had some very unpopular things to say about the state and the way in which he lived was very much like, how do I see those who are most oppressed and align myself with them? Whereas Christian nationalism is how do I see those who have the most power and align myselves with them?(16:48):And I think it is a question of alignment and orientation. And at the end of the day, who am I going to stand with even knowing and probably knowing that that may be to the detriment of my own body, but I do that not out of a sense of martyrdom, but out of a sense of integrity. I refuse. I think I really believe Jesus' words when he said, what good is it for a man to gain the world and lose his soul? And at the end of the day, what I'm fighting for is my own soul, and I don't want to give that up.Danielle (17:31):Hey, starlet, we're on to not giving up our souls to power.The Reverend Dr.Rev. Dr. Starlette (17:47):I'm sorry I'm jumping from one call to the next. I do apologize for my tardiness now, where were we?Danielle (17:53):We got on the subject of Constantine and how he married the sword with Christianity when it had been fish and fertile ground and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, that's where we started. Yeah, that's where we started.Starlette (18:12):I'm going to get in where I fit in. Y'all keep going.Danielle (18:14):You get in. Yeah, you get in. I guess Jenny, for me and for you, starlet, the deep erasure of any sort of resemblance of I have to look back and I have to be willing to interrogate, I think, which is what a lot of people don't want to do. I grew up in a really conservative evangelical family and a household, and I have to interrogate, well, one, why did my mom get into that? Because Mexican, and number two, I watched so slowly as there was a celebration. I think it was after Bill Clinton had this Monica Lewinsky thing and all of this stuff happened. My Latino relatives were like, wait a minute, we don't like that. We don't like that. That doesn't match our values. And I remember this celebration of maybe now they're going to become Christians. I remember thinking that as a child, because for them to be a Democrat in my household and for them to hold different values around social issues meant that they weren't necessarily saved in my house and my way because they hadn't fully bought into empire in the way I know Jenny muted herself.(19:31):They hadn't fully bought into empire. And I slowly watched those family members in California kind of give way to conservatism the things that beckoned it. And honestly, a lot of it was married to religion and to what is going on today and not standing up for justice, not standing up for civil rights. I watched the movement go over, and it feels like at the expense of the memory of my grandfather and my great-grandfather who despised religion in some ways, my grandfather did not like going to church because he thought people were fake. He didn't believe them, and he didn't see what church had to do with being saved anyway. And so I think about him a lot and I think, oh, I got to hold onto that a little bit in the face of empire. But yeah, my mind just went off on that rabbit trail.Starlette (20:38):Oh, it's quite all right. My grandfather had similar convictions. My grandmother took the children to church with her and he stayed back. And after a while, the children were to decide that they didn't want to go anymore. And I remember him saying, that's enough. That's enough. You've done enough. They've heard enough. Don't make them go. But I think he drew some of the same conclusions, and I hold those as well, but I didn't grow up in a household where politics was even discussed. Folks were rapture ready, as they say, because they were kingdom minded is what they say now. And so there was no discussion of what was going on on the ground. They were really out of touch with, I'm sending right now. They were out of touch with reality. I have on pants, I have on full makeup, I have on earrings. I'm not dressed modestly in any way, shape, fashion or form.(21:23):It was a very externalized, visible, able to be observed kind of spirituality. And so I enter the spaces back at home and it's like going into a different world. I had to step back a bit and oftentimes I just don't say anything. I just let the room have it because you can't, in my experience, you can't talk 'em out of it. They have this future orientation where they live with their feet off the ground because Jesus is just around the corner. He's right in that next cloud. He's coming, and so none of this matters. And so that affected their political participation and discussion. There was certainly very minor activism, so I wasn't prepared by family members to show up in the streets like I do now. I feel sincerely called. I feel like it's a work of the spirit that I know where to put my feet at all, but I certainly resonate with what you would call a rant that led you down to a rabbit hole because it led me to a story about my grandfather, so I thank you for that. They were both right by the way,Danielle (22:23):I think so he had it right. He would sit in the very back of church sometimes to please my grandmother and to please my family, and he didn't have a cell phone, but he would sit there and go to sleep. He would take a nap. And I have to think of that now as resistance. And as a kid I was like, why does he do that? But his body didn't want to take it in.Starlette (22:47):That's rest as resistance from the Nat Bishop, Trisha Hersey, rest as act of defiance, rest as reparations and taking back my time that you're stealing from me by having me sit in the service. I see that.Danielle (23:02):I mean, Jenny, it seems like Constantine, he knew what to do. He gets Christians on his side, they knew how to gather organically. He then gets this mass megaphone for whatever he wants, right?Jenny (23:21):Yeah. I think about Adrian Marie Brown talks a lot about fractals and how what happens on a smaller scale is going to be replicated on larger scales. And so even though there's some sense of disjoint with denominations, I think generally in the United States, there is some common threads of that manifest destiny that have still found its way into these places of congregating. And so you're having these training wheels really even within to break it down into the nuclear family that James Dobson wanted everyone to focus on was a very, very narrow white, patriarchal Christian family. And so if you rehearse this on these smaller scales, then you can rehearse it in your community, then you can rehearse it, and it just bubbles and bubbles and balloons out into what we're seeing happen, I think.Yeah, the nuclear family and then the youth movements, let us, give us your youth, give us your kids. Send us your kids and your youth to our camps.Jenny (24:46):Great. I grew up in Colorado and I was probably 10 or 11 when the Columbine shooting happened, and I remember that very viscerally. And the immediate conversation was not how do we protect kids in school? It was glorifying this one girl that maybe or maybe did not say yes when the shooters asked, do you still believe in God? And within a year her mom published a book about it. And that was the thing was let's use this to glorify martyrdom. And I think it is different. These were victims in school and I think any victim of the shooting is horrifying. And I think we're seeing a similar level of that martyrdom frenzy with Charlie Kirk right now. And what we're not talking about is how do we create a safer society? What we're talking about, I'm saying, but I dunno. What I'm hearing of the white Christian communities is how are we glorifying Charlie Kirk as a martyr and what power that wields when we have someone that we can call a martyr?Starlette (26:27):No, I just got triggered as soon as you said his name.(26:31):Just now. I think grieving a white supremacist is terrifying. Normalizing racist rhetoric is horrifying. And so I look online in disbelief. I unfollowed and blocked hundreds of people on social media based on their comments about what I didn't agree with. Everything he said, got a lot of that. I'm just not interested. I think they needed a martyr for the race war that they're amping for, and I would like to be delivered from the delusion that is white body supremacy. It is all exhausting. I don't want to be a part of the racial imagination that he represents. It is not a new narrative. We are not better for it. And he's not a better person because he's died. The great Biggie Smalls has a song that says you're nobody until somebody kills you. And I think it's appropriate. Most people did not know who he was. He was a podcaster. I'm also looking kind of cross-eyed at his wife because that's not, I served as a pastor for more than a decade. This is not an expression of grief. There's nothing like anything I've seen for someone who was assassinated, which I disagree with.(28:00):I've just not seen widows take the helm of organizations and given passion speeches and make veil threats to audiences days before the, as we would say in my community, before the body has cooled before there is a funeral that you'll go down and take pictures. That could be arguably photo ops. It's all very disturbing to me. This is a different measure of grief. I wrote about it. I don't know what, I've never heard of a sixth stage of grief that includes fighting. We're not fighting over anybody's dead body. We're not even supposed to do it with Jesus. And so I just find it all strange that before the man is buried, you've already concocted a story wherein opposing forces are at each other's throats. And it's all this intergalactic battle between good and bad and wrong, up and down, white and black. It's too much.(28:51):I think white body supremacy has gotten out of hand and it's incredibly theatrical. And for persons who have pulled back from who've decent whiteness, who've de racialize themselves, it's foolishness. Just nobody wants to be involved in this. It's a waste of time. White body supremacy and racism are wastes of time. Trying to prove that I'm a human being or you're looking right at is a waste of time. And people just want to do other things, which is why African-Americans have decided to go to sleep, to take a break. We're not getting ready to spin our wheels again, to defend our humanity, to march for rights that are innate, to demand a dignity that comes with being human. It's just asinine.(29:40):I think you would be giving more credence to the statements themselves by responding. And so I'd rather save my breath and do my makeup instead because trying to defend the fact that I'm a glorious human being made in the image of God is a waste of time. Look at me. My face is beat. It testifies for me. Who are you? Just tell me that I don't look good and that God didn't touch me. I'm with the finger of love as the people say, do you see this beat? Let me fall back. So you done got me started and I blame you. It's your fault for the question. So no, that's my response to things like that. African-American people have to insulate themselves with their senses of ness because he didn't have a kind word to say about African-American people, whether a African-American pilot who is racialized as black or an African-American woman calling us ignorance saying, we're incompetence. If there's no way we could have had these positions, when African-American women are the most agreed, we're the most educated, how dare you? And you think, I'm going to prove that I'm going to point to degrees. No, I'll just keep talking. It will make itself obvious and evident.(30:45):Is there a question in that? Just let's get out of that. It triggers me so bad. Like, oh, that he gets a holiday and it took, how many years did it take for Martin Luther King Junior to get a holiday? Oh, okay. So that's what I mean. The absurdity of it all. You're naming streets after him hasn't been dead a year. You have children coloring in sheets, doing reports on him. Hasn't been a few months yet. We couldn't do that for Martin Luther King. We couldn't do that for Rosa Parks. We couldn't do that for any other leader, this one in particular, and right now, find that to beI just think it just takes a whole lot of delusion and pride to keep puffing yourself up and saying, you're better than other people. Shut up, pipe down. Or to assume that everybody wants to look like you or wants to be racialized as white. No, I'm very cool in who I'm, I don't want to change as the people say in every lifetime, and they use these racialized terms, and so I'll use them and every lifetime I want to come back as black. I don't apologize for my existence. I love it here. I don't want to be racialized as white. I'm cool. That's the delusion for me that you think everyone wants to look like. You think I would trade.(32:13):You think I would trade for that, and it looks great on you. I love what it's doing for you. But as for me in my house, we believe in melanin and we keep it real cute over here. I just don't have time. I think African-Americans minoritized and otherwise, communities should invest their time in each other and in ourselves as opposed to wasting our breath, debating people. We can't debate white supremacists. Anyway, I think I've talked about that the arguments are not rooted in reason. It's rooted in your dehumanization and equating you with three fifths of a human being who's in charge of measurements, the demonizing of whiteness. It's deeply problematic for me because it puts them in a space of creator. How can you say how much of a human being that's someone? This stuff is absurd. And so I've refuse to waste my breath, waste my life arguing with somebody who doesn't have the power, the authority.(33:05):You don't have the eyesight to tell me if I'm human or not. This is stupid. We're going to do our work and part of our work is going to sleep. We're taking naps, we're taking breaks, we're putting our feet up. I'm going to take a nap after this conversation. We're giving ourselves a break. We're hitting the snooze button while staying woke. There's a play there. But I think it's important that people who are attacked by white body supremacy, not give it their energy. Don't feed into the madness. Don't feed into the machine because it'll eat you alive. And I didn't get dressed for that. I didn't get on this call. Look at how I look for that. So that's what that brings up. Okay. It brings up the violence of white body supremacy, the absurdity of supremacy at all. The delusion of the racial imagination, reading a 17th century creation onto a 21st century. It's just all absurd to me that anyone would continue to walk around and say, I'm better than you. I'm better than you. And I'll prove it by killing you, lynching you, raping your people, stealing your people, enslaving your people. Oh, aren't you great? That's pretty great,Jenny (34:30):I think. Yeah, I think it is. I had a therapist once tell me, it's like you've had the opposite of a psychotic break because when that is your world and that's all, it's so easy to justify and it makes sense. And then as soon as you step out of it, you're like, what the what? And then it makes it that much harder to understand. And this is my own, we talked about this last week, but processing what is my own path in this of liberation and how do I engage people who are still in that world, who are still related to me, who are, and in a way that isn't exhausting for I'm okay being exhausted if it's going to actually bear something, if it's just me spinning my wheels, I don't actually see value in that. And for me, what began to put cracks in that was people challenging my sense of superiority and my sense of knowing what they should do with their bodies. Because essentially, I think a lot of how I grew up was similar maybe and different from how you were sharing Danielle, where it was like always vote Republican because they're going to be against abortion and they're going to be against gay marriage. And those were the two in my world that were the things that I was supposed to vote for no matter what. And now just seeing how far that no matter what is willing to go is really terrifying.Danielle (36:25):Yeah, I agree. Jenny. I mean, again, I keep talking about him, but he's so important to me. The idea that my great grandfather to escape religious oppression would literally walk 1,950 miles and would leave an oppressive system just in an attempt to get away. That walk has to mean something to me today. You can't forget. All of my family has to remember that he did a walk like that. How many of us have walked that far? I mean, I haven't ever walked that far in just one instance to escape something. And he was poor because he couldn't even pay for his mom's burial at the Catholic church. So he said, let me get out of this. And then of course he landed with the Methodist and he was back in the fire again. But I come back to him, and that's what people will do to get out of religious oppression. They will give it an effort and when they can. And so I think it's important to remember those stories. I'm off on my tangent again now because it feels so important. It's a good one.Starlette (37:42):I think it's important to highlight the walking away from, to putting one foot in front of the other, praying with your feet(37:51):That it's its own. You answer your own prayer by getting away from it. It is to say that he was done with it, and if no one else was going to move, he was going to move himself that he didn't wait for the change in the institution. Let's just change directions and get away from it. And I hate to even imagine what he was faced with and that he had to make that decision. And what propelled him to walk that long with that kind of energy to keep momentum and to create that amount of distance. So for me, it's very telling. I ran away at 12. I had had it, so I get it. This is the last time you're going to hit me.Not going to beat me out of my sleep. I knew that at 12. This is no place for me. So I admire people who get up in the dead of night, get up without a warning, make it up in their mind and said, that's the last time, or This is not what I'm going to do. This is not the way that I want to be, and I'm leaving. I admire him. Sounds like a hero. I think we should have a holiday.Danielle (38:44):And then imagine telling that. Then you're going to tell me that people like my grandfather are just in it. This is where it leaves reality for me and leaves Christianity that he's just in it to steal someone's job. This man worked the lemon fields and then as a side job in his retired years, moved up to Sacramento, took in people off death row at Folsom Prison, took 'em to his home and nursed them until they passed. So this is the kind a person that will walk 1,950 miles. They'll do a lot of good in the world, and we're telling people that they can't come here. That's the kind of people that are walking here. That's the kind of people that are coming here. They're coming here to do whatever they can. And then they're nurturing families. They're actually living out in their families what supposed Christians are saying they want to be. Because people in these two parent households and these white families, they're actually raising the kind of people that will shoot Charlie Kirk. It's not people like my grandfather that walked almost 2000 miles to form a better life and take care of people out of prisons. Those aren't the people forming children that are, you'reStarlette (40:02):Going to email for that. The deacons will you in the parking lot for that one. You you're going to get a nasty tweet for that one. Somebody's going to jump off in the comments and straighten you out at,Danielle (40:17):I can't help it. It's true. That's the reality. Someone that will put their feet and their faith to that kind of practice is not traveling just so they can assault someone or rob someone. I mean, yes, there are people that have done that, but there's so much intentionality about moving so far. It does not carry the weight of, can you imagine? Let me walk 2000 miles to Rob my neighbor. That doesn't make any sense.Starlette (40:46):Sounds like it's own kind of pilgrimage.Jenny (40:59):I have so many thoughts, but I think whiteness has just done such a number on people. And I'm hearing each of you and I'm thinking, I don't know that I could tell one story from any of my grandparents. I think that that is part of whiteness. And it's not that I didn't know them, but it's that the ways in which Transgenerational family lines are passed down are executed for people in considered white bodies where it's like my grandmother, I guess I can't tell some stories, but she went to Polish school and in the States and was part of a Polish community. And then very quickly on polls were grafted into whiteness so that they could partake in the GI Bill. And so that Polish heritage was then lost. And that was not that long ago, but it was a severing that happened. And some of my ancestors from England, that severing happened a long time ago where it's like, we are not going to tell the stories of our ancestors because that would actually reveal that this whole white thing is made up. And we actually have so much more to us than that. And so I feel like the social privilege that has come from that, but also the visceral grief of how I would want to know those stories of my ancestors that aren't there. Because in part of the way that whiteness operates,Starlette (42:59):I'm glad you told that story. Diane de Prima, she tells about that, about her parents giving up their Italian ness, giving up their heritage and being Italian at home and being white in public. So not changing their name, shortening their name, losing their accent, or dropping the accent. I'm glad that you said that. I think that's important. But like you said though, if you tell those stories and it shakes up the power dynamic for whiteness, it's like, oh, but there are books how the Irish became White, the Making of Whiteness working for Whiteness, read all the books by David Broer on Whiteness Studies. But I'm glad that you told us. I think it's important, and I love that you named it as a severing. Why did you choose that word in particular?Jenny (43:55):I had the privilege a few years ago of going to Poland and doing an ancestry trip. And weeks before I went, an extended cousin in the States had gotten connected with our fifth cousin in Poland. We share the fifth grandparents. And this cousin of mine took us around to the church where my fifth great grandparents got married and these just very visceral places. And I had never felt the land that my ancestors know in my body. And there was something really, really powerful of that. And so I think of severing as I have been cut off from that lineage and that heritage because of whiteness. And I feel very, very grateful for the ways in which that is beginning to heal and beginning to mend. And we can tell truer stories of our ancestry and where we come from and the practices of our people. And I think it is important to acknowledge the cost and the privilege that has come from that severing in order to get a job that was not reserved for people that weren't white. My family decided, okay, well we'll just play the part. We will take on that role of whiteness because that will then give us that class privilege and that socioeconomic privilege that reveals how much of a construct whitenessStarlette (45:50):A racial contract is what Charles W. Mills calls it, that there's a deal made in a back room somewhere that you'll trade your sense of self for another. And so that it doesn't, it just unravels all the ways in which white supremacy, white body supremacy, pos itself, oh, that we're better. I think people don't say anything because it unravels those lies, those tongue twisters that persons have spun over the centuries, that it's really just an agreement that we've decided that we'll make ourselves the majority so that we can bully everybody else. And nobody wants to be called that. Nobody wants to be labeled greedy. I'm just trying to provide for my family, but at what expense? At who else's expense. But I like to live in this neighborhood and I don't want to be stopped by police. But you're willing to sacrifice other people. And I think that's why it becomes problematic and troublesome because persons have to look at themselves.(46:41):White body supremacy doesn't offer that reflection. If it did, persons would see how monstrous it is that under the belly of the beast, seeing the underside of that would be my community. We know what it costs for other people to feel really, really important because that's what whiteness demands. In order to look down your nose on somebody, you got to stand on somebody's back. Meanwhile, our communities are teaching each other to stand. We stand on the shoulders of giants. It's very communal. It's a shared identity and way of being. Whereas whiteness demands allegiance by way of violence, violent taking and grabbing it is quite the undoing. We have a lot of work to do. But I am proud of you for telling that story.Danielle (47:30):I wanted to read this quote by Gloria, I don't know if you know her. Do you know her? She writes, the struggle is inner Chicano, Indio, American Indian, Molo, Mexicano, immigrant, Latino, Anglo and power working class Anglo black, Asian. Our psyches resemble the border towns and are populated by the same people. The struggle has always been inner and has played out in outer terrains. Awareness of our situation must come before interchanges and which in turn come before changes in society. Nothing happens in the real world unless it first happens in the images in our heads.(48:16):So Jenny, when you're talking, you had some image in your head before you went to Poland, before it became reality. You had some, it didn't start with just knowing your cousin or whatever it happened before that. Or for me being confronted and having to confront things with my husband about ways we've been complicit or engaged in almost like the word comes gerrymandering our own future. That's kind of how it felt sometimes Luis and I and how to become aware of that and take away those scales off our own eyes and then just sit in the reality, oh no, we're really here and this is where we're really at. And so where are we going to go from here? And starlet, you've talked from your own position. That's just what comes to mind. It's something that happens inside. I mean, she talks about head, I think more in feelings in my chest. That's where it happens for me. But yeah, that's what comes to mind.Starlette (49:48):With. I feel like crying because of what we've done to our bodies and the bodies of other people. And we still can't see ourselves not as fully belonging to each other, not as beloved, not as holy.It's deeply saddening that for all the time that we have here together for all the time that we'll share with each other, we'll spend much of it not seeing each other at all.Danielle (50:57):My mind's going back to, I think I might've shared this right before you joined Starla, where it was like, I really believe the words of Jesus that says, what good is it for someone to gain the world and lose their soul? And that's what I hear. And what I feel is this soul loss. And I don't know how to convince other people. And I don't know if that's the point that their soul is worth it, but I think I've, not that I do it perfectly, but I think I've gotten to the place where I'm like, I believe my interiority is worth more than what it would be traded in for.(51:45):And I think that will be a lifelong journey of trying to figure out how to wrestle with a system. I will always be implicated in because I am talking to you on a device that was made from cobalt, from Congo and wearing clothes that were made in other countries. And there's no way I can make any decision other than to just off myself immediately. And I'm not saying I'm doing that, but I'm saying the part of the wrestle is that this is, everything is unresolved. And how do I, like what you said, Danielle, what did you say? Can you tune into this conversation?Jenny (52:45):Yeah. And how do I keep tapping in even when it means engaging my own implication in this violence? It's easier to be like, oh, those people over there that are doing those things. And it's like, wait, now how do I stay situated and how I'm continually perpetuating it as well, and how do I try to figure out how to untangle myself in that? And I think that will be always I,Danielle (53:29):He says, the US Mexican border as like an open wound where the third world grates against the first and bleeds. And before a scab forms it hemorrhages again, the lifeblood of two worlds. Two worlds merging to form a third country, a border culture. Borders are set up to define the places that are safe and unsafe to distinguish us from them. A border is a dividing line, a narrow strip along a steep edge. A borderland is a vague and undetermined place created by the emotional residue of an unnatural boundary is it is in a constant state of transition. They're prohibited and forbidden arts inhabitants. And I think that as a Latina that really describes and mixed with who my father is and that side that I feel like I live like the border in me, it feels like it grates against me. So I hear you, Jenny, and I feel very like all the resonance, and I hear you star led, and I feel a lot of resonance there too. But to deny either thing would make me less human because I am human with both of those parts of me.(54:45):But also to engage them brings a lot of grief for both parts of me. And how does that mix together? It does feel like it's in a constant state of transition. And that's partly why Latinos, I think particularly Latino men bought into this lie of power and played along. And now they're getting shown that no, that part of you that's European, that part never counted at all. And so there is no way to buy into that racialized system. There's no way to put a down payment in and come out on the other side as human. As soon as we buy into it, we're less human. Yeah. Oh, Jenny has to go in a minute. Me too. But starlet, you're welcome to join us any Thursday. Okay.Speaker 1 (55:51):Afternoon. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Our guest is Jacqueline Battalora, author of, Birth of a White Nation (Her lecture can be seen here) and, Lucy, a Girls Journey From Indenture to Freedom in Colonial North America. She can be contacted here. Here is the past episode Liza references that explores how to move forward when we get things wrong in cross racial relationships. Finally, the Book Jackie was reading, Betty by Tiffany McDaniel can be found here!

Danielle (00:20):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations about reality and talking a lot about what that means in the context of church, faith, race, justice, religion, all the things. Today, I'm so honored to have Sarah Van Gelder, a community leader, an example of working and continuing to work on building solidarity and networks and communication skills and settling into her lane. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Hey, Sarah, it's so good to be with you. And these are just casual conversations, and I do actual minimal editing, but they do get a pretty good reach, so that's exciting. I would love to hear you introduce yourself. How do you introduce yourself these days? Tell me a little bit about who you are. Okay.Sarah (01:14):My name is Sarah Van Gelder and I live in Bremer and Washington. I just retired after working for the Suquamish Tribe for six years, so I'm still in the process of figuring out what it means to be retired, doing a lot of writing, a certain amount of activism, and of course, just trying to figure out day to day, how to deal with the latest, outrageous coming from the administration. But that's the most recent thing. I think what I'm most known for is the founding yes magazine and being the editor for many years. So I still think a lot about how do we understand that we're in an era that's essentially collapsing and something new may be emerging to take its place? How do we understand what this moment is and really give energy to the emergence of something new? So those are sort of the foundational questions that I think about.Danielle (02:20):Okay. Those are big questions. I hadn't actually imagined that something new is going to emerge, but I do agree there is something that's collapsing, that's disintegrating. As you know, I reached out about how are we thinking about what is reality and what is not? And you can kind of see throughout the political spectrum or community, depending on who you're with and at what time people are viewing the world through a specific lens. And of course, we always are. We have our own lens, and some people allow other inputs into that lens. Some people are very specific, what they allow, what they don't allow. And so what do we call as reality when it comes to reality and politics or reality and faith or gender, sexuality? It's feeling more and more separate. And so that's kind of why I reached out to you. I know you're a thinker. I know you're a writer, and so I was wondering, as you think about those topics, what do you think even just about what I've said or where does your mind go?Sarah (03:32):Yeah. Well, at first when you said that was the topic, I was a little intimidated by it because it sounded a little abstract. But then I started thinking about how it is so hard right now to know what's real, partly because there's this very conscious effort to distort reality and get people to accept lies. And I think actually part of totalitarian work is to get people to just in the Orwellian book 1984, the character had to agree that two plus two equals five. And only when he had fully embraced that idea could he be considered really part of society.(04:14):So there's this effort to get us to accept things that we actually know aren't true. And there's a deep betrayal that takes place when we do that, when we essentially gaslight ourselves to say something is true when we know it's not. And I think for a lot of people who have, I think that's one of the reasons the Republican party is in such trouble right now, is because so many people who in previous years might've had some integrity with their own belief system, have had to toss that aside to adopt the lies of the Trump administration, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen. And if they don't accept those lies, they get rejected from the party. And once you accept those lies, then from then on you have betrayed yourself. And in many ways, you've betrayed the people who trust you. So it's a really tough dilemma sort of at that political level, even for people who have not bought into the MAGA mindset, or I do think of it as many people have described as a cult.(05:31):Now, even for people who have not bought into that, I think it's just really hard to be in a world where so many fundamental aspects of reality are not shared with people in your own family, in your own workplace, in your own community. I think it's incredibly challenging and we don't really know, and I certainly don't know how to have conversations. In fact, this is a question I wanted to ask you to have conversations across that line of reality because there's so much places where feelings get hurt, but there's also hard to reference back to any shared understanding in order to start with some kind of common ground. It feels like the ground is just completely unreliable. But I'd love to hear your thoughts about how you think about that.Danielle (06:33):It's interesting. I have some family members that are on the far, far, including my parent, well, not my parents exactly, but my father, and I've known this for a while. So prior to what happened in a couple weeks ago with the murder of an activist, I had spent a lot of time actually listening to that activist and trying to understand what he stood for, what he said, why my family was so interested in it. I spent time reading. And then I also was listening to, I don't know if you're familiar with the Midas Touch podcast? Yeah. So I listened to the Midas Brothers, and they're exact opposites. They're like, one is saying, you idiot, and the other one is like, oh, you're an idiot. And so when I could do it, when I had space to do it, it was actually kind of funny to me.(07:34):Sometimes I'm like, oh, that's what they think of someone that thinks like me. And that's when that guy says, calls them an idiot. I feel some resonance with that. So I did that a lot. However, practically speaking, just recently in the last couple months, someone reached out to me from across the political ideology line and said, Hey, wouldn't it be fun if we got together and talked? We think really differently. We've known each other for 20 years. Could you do that? So I said, I thought about it and I was like, yeah, I say this, I should act on it. I should follow through. So I said, okay, yeah, let's meet. We set up a time. And when you get that feeling like that person's not going to show up, but you're also feeling like, I don't know if I want them to show up.(08:24):Am I really going to show up? But it's kind of like a game of chicken. Well, I hung in there longer, maybe not because I wanted to show up, but just because I got distracted by my four kids and whatnot, and it was summer, and the other person did say, oh, I sprained my ankle. I can't have a conversation with you. I was like, oh, okay. And they were like, well, let me reschedule. So I waited. I didn't hear back from them, and then they hopped onto one of my Facebook pages and said some stuff, and I responded and I said, Hey, wait a minute. I thought we were going to have a conversation in person. And it was crickets, it was silence, it was nothing. And then I was tagged in some other comments of people that I would consider even more extreme. And just like, this is an example of intolerance.(09:13):And I was like, whoa, how did I get here? How did I get here? And like I said, I'm not innocent. I associate some of the name calling and I have those explicit feelings. And I was struck by that. And then in my own personal family, we started a group chat and it did not go well. As soon as we jumped into talking about immigration and ice enforcement and stuff after there were two sides stated, and then the side that was on the far right side said, well, there's no point in talking anymore. We're not going to convince each other. And my brother and I were like, wait a minute, can we keep talking? We're not going to convince each other, but how can we just stop talking? And it's just been crickets. It's been silence. There's been nothing. So I think as you ask me that, I just feel like deep pain, how can we not have the things I think, or my perception of what the other side believes is extremely harmful to me and my family. But what feels even more harmful is the fact that we can't even talk about it. There's no tolerance to hear how hurtful that is to us or the real impact on our day-to-day life. And I think this, it's not just the ideology, but it's the inability to even just have some empathy there. And then again, if you heard a guy like Charlie Kirk, he didn't believe in empathy. So I have to remember, okay, maybe they don't even believe in empathy. Okay, so I don't have an answer. What about you?Sarah (11:03):No, I don't either. Except to say that I think efforts that are based on trying to convince someone of a rational argument don't work because this is not about analysis or about rationality, it's about identity, and it's about deep feelings of fear and questions of worthiness. And I think part of this moment we're in with the empire collapsing, the empire that has shorn up so much of our way of life, even people who've been at the margins of it, obviously not as much, but particularly people who are middle class or aspiring to be middle class or upper, that has been where we get our sense of security, where we get our sense of meaning. For a lot of white people, it's their sense of entitlement that they get to have. They're entitled to certain kinds of privileges and ways of life. So if that's collapsing and I believe it is, then that's a very scary time and it's not well understood. So then somebody comes along who's a strong man like Trump and says, not only can I explain it to you, but I can keep you safe. I can be your vengeance against all the insults that you've had to live with. And it's hard to give that up because of somebody coming at you with a rational discussion.(12:36):I think the only way to give that up is to have something better or more secure or more true to lean into. Now that's really hard to do because part of the safety on the right is by totally rejecting the other. And so my sense is, and I don't know if this can possibly work, but my sense is that the only thing that might work is creating nonpolitical spaces where people can just get to know each other as human beings and start feeling that yes, that person is there for me when things are hard and that community is there for me, and they also see me and appreciate who I am. And based on that kind of foundation, I think there's some hope. And so when I think about the kind of organizing to be doing right now, a lot of it really is about just saying, we really all care about our kids and how do we make sure they have good schools and we all need some good healthcare, and let's make sure that that's available to everybody. And just as much as possible keeps it within that other realm. And even maybe not even about issues, maybe it's just about having a potluck and enjoying food together.Danielle (14:10):What structures or how do you know then that you're in reality? And do you have an experience of actually being in a mixed group like that with people that think wildly different than you? And how did that experience inform you? And maybe it's recently, maybe it's in the past. Yeah,Sarah (14:32):So in some respects, I feel like I've lived that way all my life,(14:44):Partly because I spent enough time outside the United States that when I came home as a child, our family lived in India for a year. And so when I came home, I just had this sense that my life, my life and my perceptions of the world were really different than almost everybody else around me, but the exception of other people who'd also spent a lot of time outside the us. And somehow we understood each other pretty well. But most of my life, I felt like I was seeing things differently. And I don't feel like I've ever really particularly gained a lot of skill in crossing that I've tended to just for a lot of what I'm thinking about. I just don't really talk about it except with a few people who are really interested. I don't actually know a lot about how to bridge that gap, except again, to tell stories, to use language that is non-academic, to use language that is part of ordinary people's lives.(16:01):So yes, magazine, that was one of the things that I focused a lot on is we might do some pretty deep analysis, and some of it might include really drawing on some of the best academic work that we could find. But when it came to what we were going to actually produce in the magazine, we really focused in on how do we make this language such that anybody who picks this up who at least feels comfortable reading? And that is a barrier for some people, but anybody who feels comfortable reading can say, yeah, this is written with me in mind. This is not for another group of people. This is written for me. And then part of that strategy was to say, okay, if you can feel that way about it, can you also then feel comfortable sharing it with other people where you feel like they're going to feel invited in and they won't feel like, okay, I'm not your audience.(16:57):I'm not somebody you're trying to speak to. So that's pretty much, I mean, just that whole notion of language and telling stories and using the age old communication as human beings, we evolved to learn by stories. And you can tell now just because you try to tell a kid some lesson and their eyes will roll, but if you tell them a story, they will listen. They won't necessarily agree, but they will listen and it will at least be something they'll think about. So stories is just so essential. And I think that authentic storytelling from our own experience that feels like, okay, I'm not just trying to tell you how you should believe, but I'm trying to say something about my own experience and what's happened to me and where my strength comes from and where my weaknesses and my challenges come from as well.Yeah, you mentioned that, and I was thinking about good stories. And so one of the stories I like to tell is that I moved to Suquamish, which is as an Indian reservation, without knowing really anything about the people I was going to be neighbors with. And there's many stories I could tell you about that. But one of them was that I heard that they were working to restore the ability to dig clams and dies inlet, which is right where silver Dial is located. And I remember thinking that place is a mess. You're never going to be able to have clean enough water because clams require really clean water. They're down filtering all the crap that comes into the water, into their bodies. And so you don't want to eat clams unless the water's very clean. But I remember just having this thought from my perspective, which is find a different place to dig clamps because that place is a mess.(19:11):And then years later, I found out it was now clean enough that they were digging clamps. And I realized that for them, spending years and years, getting the water cleaned up was the obvious thing to do because they think in terms of multiple generations, and they don't give up on parts of their water or their land. So it took years to do it, but they stayed with it. And so that was really a lesson for me in that kind of sense of reality, because my sense of reality is, no, you move on. You do what the pioneers did. One place gets the dust bowl and you move to a different place to farm. And learning to see from the perspective of not only other individuals, but other cultures that have that long millennia of experience in place and how that shifts things. It's almost like to me, it's like if you're looking at the world through one cultural lens, it's like being a one eyed person. You certainly see things, but when you open up your other eye and you can start seeing things in three dimensions, it becomes so much more alive and so much more rich with information and with possibilities.Danielle (20:35):Well, when you think about, and there's a lot probably, how do you apply that to today or even our political landscape? We're finding reality today.Sarah (20:48):Well, I think that the MAGA cult is very, very one eyed. And again, because that sense of safety and identity is so tied up in maintaining that they're not necessarily going to voluntarily open a second eye. But if they do, it would probably be because of stories. There's a story, and I think things like the Jimmy Kimmel thing is an example of that.(21:21):There's a story of someone who said what he believed and was almost completely shut down. And the reason that didn't happen is because people rose up and said, no, that's unacceptable. So I think there's a fundamental belief that's widespread enough that we don't shut down people for speech unless it's so violent that it's really dangerous. We don't shut people down for that. So I think when there's that kind of dissonance, I think there's sometimes an opening, and then it's really important to use that opening, not as a time to celebrate that other people were wrong and we were right, but to celebrate these values that free speech is really important and we're going to stand up for it, and that's who we are. So we get back to that identity. You can feel proud that you were part of this movement that helped make sure that free speech is maintained in the United States. Oh, that'sDanielle (22:26):Very powerful. Yeah, because one side of my family is German, and they're the German Mennonites. They settled around the Black Sea region, and then the other side is Mexican. But these settlers were invited by Catherine the Great, and she was like, Hey, come over here. And Mennonites had a history of non-violence pacifist movement. They didn't want to be conscripted into the German army. And so this was also attractive for them because they were skilled farmers and they had a place to go and Russia and farm. And so that's why they left Germany, to go to Russia to want to seek freedom of their religion and use their farming skills till the soil as well as not be conscripted into violent political movements. That's the ancestry of the side of my family that is now far.(23:29):And I find, and of course, they came here and when they were eventually kicked out, and part of that them being kicked out was then them moving to the Dakotas and then kicking out the native tribes men that were there on offer from the US government. So you see the perpetuation of harm, and I guess I just wonder what all of that cost my ancestors, what it cost them to enact harm that they had received themselves. And then there was a shift. Some of them went to World War II as conscientious objectors, a couple went as fighters.(24:18):So then you start seeing that shift. I'm no longer, I'm not like a pacifist. You start seeing the shift and then we're to today, I don't know if those black sea farmers that moved to Russia would be looking down and being good job. Those weren't the values it seems like they were pursuing. So I even, I've been thinking a lot about that and just what does that reality mean here? What separations, what splitting has my family had to do to, they changed from these deeply. To move an entire country means you're very committed to your values, uproot your life, even if you're farming and you're going to be good at it somewhere else, it's a big deal.Sarah (25:10):Oh, yeah. So it also could be based on fear, right? Because I think so many of the people who immigrated here were certainly my Jewish heritage. There is this long history of pilgrims and people would get killed. And so it wasn't necessarily that for a lot of people that they really had an option to live where they were. And of course, today's refugees, a lot of 'em are here for the same reason. But I think one of the things that happened in the United States is the assimilation into whiteness.(25:49):So as white people, it's obviously different for different communities, but if you came in here and you Irish people and Italians and so forth were despised at certain times and Jews and Quakers even. But over time, if you were white, you could and many did assimilate. And what did assimilate into whiteness? First of all, whiteness is not a culture, and it's kind of bereft of real meaning because the real cultures were the original Irish and Italian. But the other thing is that how you make whiteness a community, if you will, is by excluding other people, is by saying, well, we're different than these other folks. So I don't know if this applies to your ancestors or not, but it is possible that part of what their assimilation to the United States was is to say, okay, we are white people and we are entitled to this land in North Dakota because we're not native. And so now our identity is people who are secure on the land, who have title to it and can have a livelihood and can raise our children in security. That is all wrapped up in us not being native and in our government, keeping native people from reclaiming that land.(27:19):So that starts shifting over generations. Certainly, it can certainly shift the politics. And I think that plus obviously the sense of entitlement that so many people felt to and feel to their slave holding ancestors, that was a defensible thing to do. And saying it's not is a real challenge to somebody's identity.(27:51):So in that respect, that whole business that Trump is doing or trying to restore the Confederate statues, those were not from the time of slavery. Those were from after reconstruction. Those were part of the south claiming that it had the moral authority and the moral right to do these centuries long atrocities against enslaved people. And so to me, that's still part of the fundamental identity struggle we're in right now, is people saying, if I identify as white, yes, I get all this safety and all these privileges, but I also have this burden of this history and history that's continuing today, and how do I reconcile those two? And Trump says, you don't have to. You can just be proud of what you have perpetrated or what your ancestors perpetrated on other people.And I think there was some real too. I think there were people who honestly felt that they wanted to reconcile the, and people I think who are more willing to have complex thoughts about this country because there are things to be proud of, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the long history of protecting free speech and journalism and education for everyone and so forth. So there are definitely things to be proud of. And then there are things to recognize. We're incredibly violent and have had multiple generations of trauma resulting from it. And to live in this country in authenticity is to recognize that both are true and we're stuck with the history, but we're not stuck without being able to deal with that. We can do restitution and reparations and we can heal from that.Danielle (30:15):How do you stay connected even just to your own self in that dissonance that you just described?Sarah (30:30):Well, I think part of having compassion is to recognize that we're imperfect beings as individuals, but we're also imperfect as cultures. And so for me, I can live with, I mean, this is something I've lived with ever since I was in India, really. And I looked around and noticed that there were all these kids my own age who were impoverished and I was not. And that I knew I have enough to eat at the end of the day, and I knew that many of them would not have enough to eat. So it's always been a challenge for me. And so my response to that has been when I was a kid was, well, I don't understand how that happened. It's certainly not right. I don't understand how it could be, and I'm going to do my best to understand it, and then I'll do my part to try to change it. And I basically had the same view ever since then, which is there's only so much I can do, but I'll do everything I can, including examining my own complicity and working through issues that I might be carrying as somebody who grew up in a white supremacist culture, working on that internally, and then also working in community and working as an activist in a writer in any way I can think of that I can make a contribution.(31:56):But I really do believe that healing is possible. And so when I think about the people that are causing that I feel like are not dealing with the harm that they're creating, I still feel just somebody who goes to prison for doing a crime that's not the whole of who they are. And so they're going to have to ultimately make the choice about whether they're going to heal and reconcile and repair the damage they will have to make that choice. But for my part, I always want to keep that door open in my relationship with them and in my writing and in any other way, I want to keep the door open.Danielle (32:43):And I hear that, and I'm like, that's noble. And it's so hard to do to keep that door open. So what are some of the tools you use, even just on your own that help you keep that door open to conversation, even to feeling compassion for people maybe you don't agree with? What are some of the things, maybe their internal resources, external resources could be like, I don't know, somebody you read, go back to and read. Yeah. What helps you?Sarah (33:16):Well, the most important thing for me to keep my sanity is a combination of getting exercise and getting outside(33:27):And hanging out with my granddaughter and other people I love outside of political spaces because the political spaces get back into the stress. So yeah, I mean the exercise, I just feel like being grounded in our bodies is so important. And partly that the experience of fear and anxiety show up in our bodies, and we can also process them through being really active. So I'm kind of worried that if I get to the point where I'm too old to be able to really move, whether I'll be able to process as well. So there's that in terms of the natural world, this aliveness that I feel like transcends me and certainly humanity and just an aliveness that I just kind of open my senses to. And then it's sort, they call it forest bathing or don't have to be in a forest to do it, but just sort of allowing that aliveness to wash over me and to sort of celebrate it and to remember that we're all part of that aliveness. And then spending time with a 2-year-old is like, okay, anything that I may be hung up on, it becomes completely irrelevant to her experience.Danielle (35:12):I love that. Sarah, for you, even though I know you heard, you're still asking these questions yourself, what would you tell people to do if they're listening and they're like, and they're like, man, I don't know how to even start a conversation with someone that thinks different than me. I don't know how to even be in the same room them, and I'm not saying that your answers can apply to everybody. Mine certainly don't either, like you and me are just having a conversation. We're just talking it out. But what are some of the things you go to if you know you're going to be with people Yeah. That think differently than you, and how do you think about it?Sarah (35:54):Yeah, I mean, I don't feel particularly proud of this because I don't feel very capable of having a direct conversation with somebody who's, because I don't know how to get to a foundational level that we have in common, except sometimes we do. Sometimes it's like family, and sometimes it's like, what did you do for the weekend? And so it can feel like small talk, but it can also have an element of just recognizing that we're each in a body, in perhaps in a family living our lives struggling with how to live well. And so I usually don't try to get very far beyond that, honestly. And again, I'm not proud of that because I would love to have conversations that are enlightening for me and the other person. And my go-to is really much more basic than that.Maybe it is. And maybe it creates enough sense of safety that someday that other level of conversation can happen, even if it can't happen right away.Danielle (37:14):Well, Sarah, tell me if people are looking for your writing and know you write a blog, tell me a little bit about that and where to find you. Okay.Sarah (37:26):Yeah, my blog is called How We Rise, and it's on Substack. And so I'm writing now and then, and I'm also writing somewhat for Truth Out Truth out.org has adopted the Yes Archive, which I'm very grateful to them for because they're going to keep it available so people can continue to research and find articles there that are still relevant. And they're going to be continuing to do a monthly newsletter where they're going to draw on Yes, archives to tell stories about what's going on now. Yes, archives that are specifically relevant. So I recommend that. And otherwise, I'm just right now working on a draft of an op-ed about Palestine, which I hope I can get published. So I'm sort of doing a little of this and a little of that, but I don't feel like I have a clear focus. The chaos of what's going on nationally is so overwhelming, and I keep wanting to come back to my own and my own focus of writing, but I can't say that I've gotten there yet.Danielle (38:41):I hear you. Well, I hope you'll be back, and hopefully we can have more conversations. And just thanks a lot for being willing to just talk about stuff we don't know everything about.As always, thank you for joining us, and at the end of the podcast are notes and resources, and I encourage you to stay connected to those who are loving in your path and in your community. Stay tuned.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

In this episode, we chat with Diana Leon-Boys— Assistant Professor of Media and Cultural Studies at the University of Wisconsin-Madison's Department of Communication Arts—about her lifelong work examining the navigation of girlhood through a Latinx lens. Her book Elena, Princesa of the Periphery: Disney's Flexible Latina Girl extends conversations about minority representation and the complex relationship it has with child development. We host a dialogue between Diana's research and Henry's observations about boyhood in his book Where the Wild Things Were: Boyhood and Permissive Parenting in Postwar America. We discuss how both scholars pull from their own personal experiences growing up in America and how they interacted with their childhood media. We explore how the proliferation and production of children's and family media shape ideas of adolescence. Diana and Henry relate this back to their roles as parents within an ever-evolving media landscape where funding for educational children's content is dwindling. They further discuss how representation within media has changed over time and minority groups' relation to it. This is where Diana brings in her newer projects about depictions of Quinceañeras and Día de los Muertos in TV and films. We are left to ask what the politics of childhood are and what reforms can be done with current children's media.Here are some of the references from this episode, for those who want to dig a little deeper:Academic TextsDiana Leon-Boys:Elena, Princesa of the Periphery: Disney's Flexible Latina GirlQuinceañeras: Latinidades and Girlhood in Popular CultureHenry Jenkins:Where the Wild Things Were: Boyhood and Permissive Parenting in Postwar AmericaThe Children's Culture Reader“Just a Spoonful of Sugar: Permissive Child-Rearing and Walt Disney's Mary Poppins”“‘You've Got to Be Carefully Taught': The Whiteness of Permissive Culture”MIT Salute to Doctor SeussInterview about the bookOthers:Centuries of Childhood: A Social History of Family LifeKids in the Middle: How Children of Immigrants Negotiate Community Interactions for Their FamiliesLatina Teenhood: Intersectionalizing subjectivities in the post-network era.Crafting Public Opinion: The Effectiveness of China's Media Control Policies under Xi JinpingMade to Play House: Dolls and the Commercialization of American Girlhood, 1830-1930 Advice Books:The Common Sense Book of Baby and Child CareDare to Discipline  People, Places, Toys, and HolidaysPhilippe ArièsDr. Vikki KatzDía de los MuertosQuinceañerasBenjamin SpockMargaret MeadDr. SeussFred RogersStephanie PérezRaquel Reyes [American Girl Doll]Samantha Parkington [Doll]Julie AndrewsWalt DisneyDisneyland and Disney WorldPaper DollsFDRSigmund Freud Shows, Films, and Other MediaPee-wee's PlayHouseDennis the Menace [59-63' show, Comics]Leave It To BeaverThe Cosby ShowOne Piece [Anime, Manga, Live Action]Disney+EncantoCocoSnow White [Animated, Live Action]Little Mermaid [Animated, Live Action]Chinese State Media sounded like Fox MediaRogue OneSesame StreetGordita ChroniclesBaker and the BeautyBlueyDescendants film franchiseOn My BlockWednesdayMary PoppinsSaludos AmigosHarry Potter film seriesDora The Explorer The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T.Mad Magazine Classic IllustratedGabby's DollhouseQuinceañeras episodesSuper Sweet 16Wizards of Waverly PlaceDora the Explorer  NewsDefunding of PBS Quinceañeras in ProtestOne Piece Flags in Indonesia ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––Share your thoughts via Twitter with Henry, Colin and the How Do You Like It So Far? account! You can also email us at howdoyoulikeitsofarpodcast@gmail.com.Music:“In Time” by Dylan Emmett and “Spaceship” by Lesion X.In Time (Instrumental) by Dylan Emmet https://soundcloud.com/dylanemmetSpaceship by Lesion X https://soundcloud.com/lesionxbeatsCreative Commons — Attribution 3.0 Unported — CC BY 3.0Free Download / Stream: https://bit.ly/in-time-instrumentalFree Download / Stream: https://bit.ly/lesion-x-spaceshipMusic promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/AzYoVrMLa1Q––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias' and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Danielle (00:28):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations based in what our reality is, faith, race, justice, gender in the church, therapy, all matter of things considered just exploring this topic of reality. Hey, I'm having this regular podcast co-host. Her name is Jenny McGrath. She's an M-A-C-P-L-M-H-C. She's dope. She's a licensed mental health counselor, a somatic experiencing practitioner, certified yoga teacher, and an approved supervisor in the state of Washington. She spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. And she's come to see that bodies are so important and she believes that by approaching the body with curiosity, we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens. So I hope you're as thrilled as me to have such an amazing co-host join me. Yeah, we're going to talk about reality and therapy. We're just jumping in. Jenny and I are both writing books.Jenny, I think it's funny that we are good friends and we see each other when we're around each other, but then if not, we're always trading reels and often they're like parodies on real life. Funny things about real life that are happening, which I've been, the theme of my book is called Splitting, and I know you write about purity culture, and a part of that I think really has to do with what is our reality and how is it formed? And then that shapes what we do, how we act, how we behave in the world, how we relate to each other. So any thoughts on that? On Thursday, September 25th,Jenny (02:17):I mean, as you named that, I think 10 minutes before this started, I sent you a reel. There was a comedian singing Why She Doesn't Go to Therapy, and it says, all my friends that go to therapy are mean to me, and you don't have boundaries. You're just being an asshole. And it was good, but it was also existential. This was what seems to me a white woman. And I do think as a white woman who's a therapist, I feel existential a lot about the work I do in therapy and in healing spaces, and how we do this in a way that doesn't promote this hyper individualistic reality. And this idea that everything I see and everything I think is the way that it is, how do I stay open to more of a communal or collective way of knowing? And I think that that's a challenging thing. So that's something that comes to mind for me as you bring up Instagram reels.Danielle (03:26):Oh man, I have so many thoughts on that that I wasn't thinking before you said it, but I think they were all locked in a vault, been unleashed. No, seriously. You come from your own position in the world. Talk about your position and how did you come to that point of seeing more of a collective mindset or reality point of view?Jenny (03:47):I mean, honestly, I think a big part has been knowing you and working with you and knowing that I think we've had conversations over the years of both the privilege and the detriment that happens in a lot of white therapeutic spaces that say you just need detach from your family, from your community, from those who have harmed you. And I want to be very, very clear and very careful that obviously I do think that there are situations we need to extract ourselves from and remove ourselves from. And I think that can become disabling for bodies to, I've been having this thing play in my head lately where I'm like, are you healed? Or have you just cut off everyone that triggers you?Yeah, and I saw another, speaking of meme, it was like, I treat my trauma like Trump treats tariffs. I just implement boundaries arbitrarily, and they harm everyone.And so I think it's, there is a certain privilege that comes with being able to say, I'm just going to step away. I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to do my healing journey. And I think there is a detriment to that and there's a loss. And I think we have co-evolved to be in community and to tell stories and to share reality and to hold reality in the tension of our space. I think about it as we each have a different lens. There's no objective reality, but if I can be open to your lens and you can be open to my lens, then we actually have two lenses, and then if we have five lenses or 10 lenses, we can have a much fuller picture of where we are rather than seeing the world through the really monochromatic white, patriarchal, Christian nationalist lens that we've been maybe conditioned, or at least I was conditioned to see the world through.Danielle (06:10):Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, I know we've talked about this so many times, and I think it just feels so present right now, especially as every moment it feels like every day. If you watch the news, if you don't take a break, I think you can be jarred at any moment or dissociated at any moment, or traumatized at any moment, or maybe feel a bit of joy too when someone says a smack down on your side of the issue. And I think that when we get in that mode of constantly being jarred and then we try to come into a healing space, it's like how do we determine then what is actually healing for us? What is actually good? What is actually wise? And I agree, I think if we're in a rhythm of being on our own, and I'm not criticizing, I mean, I get lonely and I'm part of a group, so I'm not speaking to loneliness particularly, but I'm speaking to the idea that no one else has input in your life, even the kind of input you may not agree with, but no one else is allowed to speak to you.(07:15):When I get in those spaces, it's not that I just feel lonely, I don't feel any hope. I don't feel any movement or any possibility because let's say that this ends tomorrow, that authoritarian regime magically ends. It's healed tomorrow. We're going to have to look at all of our people in our lives and face them and decide what we're going to do. I mean, that's what I think about a lot. At the end of the day, I might sit next to someone that hates me or that I perhaps might have rage and anger towards them. What are we going to do? So I don't know, when you talk about the different lenses, I'm not sure how that all mixes together. I don't have an answer, basically. Shoot.Jenny (08:05):But I also think that that's part of maybe how we hold reality is maybe it is more about presence and being with what is, rather than having an answer, I think I become more and more skeptical of anyone who says they have an answer for anything.Danielle (08:31):So I mean, there was this guy that recently passed away, and there was, on one hand I wanted to really talk about it, and on the other hand, I didn't want to talk about it because it took up so much space. And I feel that even as we start to talk about how do we form healing spaces in therapy with that, I think, what did you call it that, what kind of lens did you say? It was like a monochromatic lens. How do we talk about that without centering it?Jenny (09:08):I think one thing that comes to mind is holding it in context of all of the other deaths that have not taken up that space. And the social studies phrase, what are the conditions of possibility that have enabled this death to create church services happening that have taken over people's social media, people who have been silent about lots of different deaths in the last year or five years, all of a sudden can't help but become really vigilant about talking about this. I think for me, it helps to zoom back and go, how come? Why is this so prevalent? Why is this so loud? What is this illuminating or what is this unearthing about? What's already been here?So I grew up in very fundamentalist, white evangelical Christianity. And from the time I was eight, nine years old, I had in me messages instilled of martyrdom, whether that was a message that I should be a martyr, or whether that was a message that Christians were already being martyred, whether that was the war against Christmas with Starbucks cups or not having prayers happen at school. And these things where I grew up in this world where we were supposed to be prominent, we were supposed to be prevalent, we were supposed to be protected. And whenever there was any challenge to that from bodies that weren't white or straight or Christian or American, there became this very real frenzy around martyrdom. And I think on an interpersonal level and on a collective level, someone who plays the victim will always hold the most power in the relational dynamic. And so I think that this moment was a very useful moment to that psyche and that reality of seeing the world as a victim, as a martyr, as being persecuted, regardless of the fact that evangelical Christians are the strongest floating block in our nation. They have incredible privilege when it comes to a lot of education, marriage inequality, things like that, that are from the long lineage of Christian nationalism in our country.Danielle (12:15):So then how do you work with folks that are coming in with that lens, and what's the responsibility of our field? I know you and I can't answer that question necessarily, but we can just say from our own experience what that's like. Are you willing to share a little bit of that?What would I say? My client load is mixed and so do a lot of work, but just because it's mixed doesn't mean that I'm not currently undoing that process in myself as well. So I think just as much as therapy is about whoever comes into my office or shows up in the zoom room or even a group or a teaching we've been a part of, I think it's, well, I mean we say this co-created, but I actually mean it means I have to keep learning. I have to keep trying to be in my body. And what I mean by that is I was talking to my friend Phil yesterday, and he was like, Danielle, are you tracking your body sensations? And he's like, I just challenge you to do that today. And I was like, man, that that's a good reminder. So I think one way I try to come with clients is from the perspective of I don't know it all.(13:38):I only know what I'm feeling and sensing in this moment, and I have that to offer along with other things I've studied, of course. But just because the person sitting with me doesn't have a degree or the group and the people, doesn't mean they don't know just as much as me. It's just another form of maybe learning or knowing or presence and healing. And then we're figuring that out together. I see that as one way of undoing, undoing this. I know everything point of view, which I kind of felt like I had to have when I came out of grad school. Yeah,Jenny (14:14):Yeah, totally. Yeah, I feel similar and I think often think in quotes. And so one of my favorite quotes is by Simone Devo, and she says, without a doubt, it is always more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one's liberation. And so I am consistently asking, where is my blind bondage? Who are the people in my life that will show me where my blind bondage is? Who are the people that will hold me accountable to my own liberation? And for me as a therapist, I work primarily with white folks who grew up in fundamental Christianity. And over 10 years of doing that work, I think that a primary part of my work is radical agency(15:13):Because I think that particularly white bodies maintain privilege by abdicating our agency and by being compliant with the systems that give us power and give us privilege. And so I think for me, my ethic is how do I help clients come into contact with their radical agency? And so a big part of that that I think is important is consent. And so if someone is coming to work with me, it's part of my disclosure form, it's part of my intake to say, I don't think our mental health concerns or our somatic concerns exist in a bubble. They are deeply impacted by the systems we move through. And so while we'll be engaging your individual body, we're also going to be engaging the collective structures. And I've had people say, no, I don't want to do that work. And I say, great, there are other lovely therapists that will work with you and be a better fit. That's just not the type of therapy I do. That's not within my scope of practice to only focus on the individual, because for me, that's unethical.Danielle (16:23):Oh, that's cool. I like that, Jenny. I think that a lot. I was consulting recently, and we're just talking about this current moment, and I'll just say from my point of view that even in my family, I noticed when something had gone on locally, we have some organizing that we do and we had some warnings go out. And I noticed even in my own family, the heightened anxiety, the alert, and one of the things we had to do was we took turns driving around just making sure everybody's safe and everybody was safe. And I came down and at the point where people began to lower anxiety, and we're talking about just regular business owners, regular people out there, we're not even talking about immigrants, quote migrants. We're just talking about people out there that don't want to encounter force. You could feel the anxiety just lower now that we went the parking lot's clear, no one's here, we're safe. This isn't happening, not today. I'm not saying it won't happen here in our area of the country, but it's not happening today. And I realized in consultation later about clients and stuff that things are going to, but the clinician I was consulting with just said to me, she said to me, just for your family, she's like, that anxiety is warranted. That's real. You're supposed to feel anxious. There's no way you can take that away for those people and you shouldn't.(18:02):And so just kind of learning, reminding myself, when you go to grad school, when you study therapy and psychology, there's pathological, there's diagnoses, all these things, but then there's some things like we just can't take away. They're part of the experience. They need to be there. They're part of the warning. And there's a reason why when you get out and do something practical for a community, the anxiety lowers. And I think that just gave me a lot of insight, not just for my client, but for my family and for myself. And there's some calm, not because I'm anxious, but because, oh, I'm not crazy. I'm not just making this up. And so I do think that speaks to how the system is creating trauma and it is powerless. What can we do against the big bad authorities? And we can do things, we can connect, we can be with people, but at some level, that baseline of anxiety is going to be there because it's warranted. That's how I think of it.What do we do? Well, we sat at home, we watched sports. We went to Best Buy, and this is not every, we had some privilege. We bought an extra controller to play Mario World or whatever it was. I don't remember, but I was like, I'm not playing on that little controller. They wanted me to hold. I was like, I need a real controller. I'm old. I need to be able to feel it in my hands. Just silly stuff. Just didn't put pressure on the kids to do homework. Not a pressure to clean the house, just to just exist. Just be, yeah. What about you? What do you do when you encounter either anxiety from trauma like that or the systemic pressure maybe to even conform to whiteness or privilege in that moment?Jenny (20:12):I typically need to move my body in some way, whether that's to take my dog on a very long walk or whether that's just to roll around on a dance floor or maybe do a yoga practice. I become aware of how my body is holding that, and I think about how emotions are just energy in motion. And so if we don't give them motion and expression, it becomes like a battery pack in our nervous system. And so I can feel that if I haven't been able to move and to express whatever my body needs to express, and often I don't even know cognitively what my body needs to express, but I've grown in trust that my body knows, and I say, I think the sillier we look the better it usually feels. I just saw this lovely post the other day, a movement person did where they, we talk a lot about brainwashing, but we don't talk a lot about body washing, and we are so conditioned to only move our body in certain ways. And because our body is not different than our brain, I think that the more free we feel in our actual physical body to our own ability, the more that can actually create a little bit more mobility in how we see reality and how we engage with it.Danielle (21:44):So take that back to the beginning where you started talking about how when you have clients come in, you're like, yo, we're going to address this systemically and collectively. What do you do with folks when they have that kind of energy and you guys are working through it and it's like, oh, it's like maybe that's collective energy. What do you do? Yeah,Jenny (22:02):Yeah. I ask my clients probably annoying amount of times each session, what do you notice right now? And then I follow their body. So if their body says like, oh, I feel a lot of tension in my gut instead of alleviating that, I go, okay, great. Can you actually exaggerate that tension a little bit and see what happens? See if that tension wants to come out in a snarl or a growl, or maybe you want to curl up in a ball and I just follow whatever the impulses of their body are. Or if they say like, oh, I feel a lot in my shoulders. I'm like, great. Do you want to go push against a wall or push against the floor or punch a pillow and let your body actually get some movement into those spaces that you're sensing?Well, as I said, I'm very skeptical about individual work, even though I do it, I don't think is all that. I think it is both necessary and not that helpful for the collective(23:21):Because it is individual. And so I actually do think we need collective spaces of moving and expressing and being in our bodies. I think our ancestors knew this for before Christian supremacy and then white supremacy and then capitalistic supremacy eradicated how we've evolved to move in our and collectively. That being said, I do think that the more we become aware of how our body is constrained and how we've been socialized, especially I think for anybody, but for me, I'll speak to white bodies, we aren't always conscious. We take for granted whiteness and how it affects our bodies. So the first time I'm asking a white person, especially maybe a white woman to look pissed, that's going to be probably really scary because socially we are not actually allowed to be pissed. We're allowed to be dams, souls, and we're allowed to freak out, but we're not actually allowed to be strong and be powerful and be angry. And so I do believe that in that work of individual liberation and freedom, it actually helps us resist those roles and those performances of white womanhood that then perpetuate collective harm.Danielle (24:49):I can see how that shift would really impact the way one person both connects with their neighbor or a different person, even same race or same culture, and would impact not only how they relate and connect to that person, but also just how they might love.Jenny (25:10):Yeah, because I think it is dangerous. It is disproportionately dangerous to oppressed bodies when white women aren't holding our own anger because I think that there is a deferral to the police, to governing bodies to different authorities when a white woman is actually pissed, rather than saying like, Hey, you did this and it pissed me off, let's work it out here. Oftentimes that ends up actually getting policed to authorities that then disproportionately harm oppressed bodies. And so I think it is essential for white women to grow our capacity to bear. No, I actually am pissed and I can acknowledge that and engage that and be with it in myself.I do. I do actually. So I have been working on a book for the last six years in which I'm looking at the socialization of young white women in purity culture and this political moment of Invisible children, which was this documentary style film that manipulated an entire generation of young white women to get involved in missions or development. And so as part of my research, I interviewed many white women who grew up in purity culture and became missionaries. And there were some that maybe still had good relations with organizations such as invisible children and felt threatened or maybe pissed that I was inquiring into this. And so instead of engaging and talking about the emotions that were coming up, they went straight to interrogating my IRB and then went straight to is this research ethical? Even though I could tell they were really just angry and upset about what I was interrogating, and I would've much rather we could have that conversation than this quick sense of I'm going to go to the structures while I can maintain feeling like this demure pleasantness of white womanhood, even though I could feel the energy. And that's an example for me, and I have white privilege, and so there was still threat there, but it was not probably to the same degree that it could be if I didn't hold that same power and privilege that I do.Scared. I felt really scared and I had done everything ethically. I had hired my own IRB to oversee my research. I did their protocol and still I felt the wielding of power and the sense of I can move the system to act against you if I don't like what you're doing. And so it was really, really scary. And then I had to move my anxiety and my body and I had to shake because what I do often when I get scared and I had to let my body discharge that adrenaline and that cortisol, and then I was able to back to myself and respond and say, it sounds like you have some concerns, and being interviewed is totally optional so you don't have to do it. And then I never heard back from 'em, and so it was just helpful for me to get to move that through. Even in part of that process,Danielle (29:27):Jenny, is that energy still in you now or is it gong?Jenny (29:30):Oh yeah, totally. I can feel my body vibrating and even there's that fear of like, oh shit, what's going to happen if I talk about this? I can feel the silencingThe demand to be small and not to expose it because then I'm open to fill in the blank. And so I can feel the sense of how power wants to keep us from speaking truth to power and to those that wield it.Danielle (30:02):Man, I want to swear so bad, motherfucker. I'm not surprised. But I do think I continue to allow myself to be shocked. And I think the thing is, I know this can happen. I know it will happen. I think both you and I are writing on topics that are very interrogate this moment in a very particular way that's threatening. And so although I'm not surprised, I am allowing myself to continually be shocked, not I want to re-traumatize myself, but I don't want to lose the feeling of there might be somebody good out there, this might be well received. And also I want to maintain that feeling of like, man, I really love my friend. I believe in her. And I think allowing myself to kind of hold all those things kind of just allows me to wake up for the moment versus just numbing out to it. Man,So vicious. It's so vicious because you aren't taking their money, you aren't literally hurting them physically. You're not taking their power, and yet there's this full force. You've dedicated your life to this thing and they could take you out.Jenny (31:19):Yeah, and I think it's primarily because I am questioning white women's innocence and I think based on how race and gender work, a white woman's privilege and power comes from this presumed purity and innocence. And so if we start to disrupt that and go, actually, I'm human and I've done some shit and I've, I've caused harm and I will cause harm, and that's actually a really important part of me working out my humanity. Then I'm stepping out of the bounds of being protected under white patriarchy.Danielle (32:06):I feel like I learned, I feel like so much resonance with that. I've had many similar experiences, but one stands out where right after the election I talked with a friend of mine on the phone, and I don't remember if she is a white colleague from same grad school and said something like, oh, it's just a bummer. And we didn't really talk about it. And I was like, that's all you could say. I thought about that. And later I sent a really kind text saying, Hey, that really hurt my feelings. I don't know. It doesn't make sense why we haven't talked about it more. And then I didn't hear back. It just went silent. This is someone I'd known for seven years.(32:45):Then later I called and I was like, Hey, what's up? And they're like, I can't believe you would write that to me If I ever engage you again, I want to start here. Some other random place. I was just sat back and I was like, I'm not giving this any more energy at that time. I said that to myself and it was just like the complete collapse when I said, you hurt my feelings, the complete collapse. When I said, I don't understand this, can we talk about it? And then I went through this period this summer of just having this feeling. I don't want to be at odds with people. So I left this person a voicemail saying, Hey man, can we talk? I haven't heard back from them, but I feel like I did my part. But I'm just struck it even in down from the big view, like the 30,000 foot view or how that person wants to reign the system on you to even interpersonally, if I don't like what you said, I'm just going to remove my presence,Jenny (33:51):Which I think again, is so much of the epidemic of whiteness. And I think it then produces such a fragility that's like I don't actually know how to bear open conflict and disruption because I'm not practiced at it, and I just will escape every time someone calls me to accountability or says something I don't like. And we can't stay in that place of tension.Yeah. Well, I think one is that I feel those tendencies so much in my own body, and I do think that we have capacity to metabolize them. And so I literally might say something like, great, could you let your body get up and run around the room or run in place? Or maybe you stay seated but you let your legs and your arms kick. And they think that if we even just let ourselves express I want to fight, or if I want to flee or I want to get away from this and we let our body do what we need to do, we can then come back to ourselves and have fuller access to our capacity. And again, sometimes I do think there are relationships or communities or things that we do need to step away from. And sometimes if we've only ever learned to say yes, we might go through a process where we swing to the other side and we just cut everyone out and then we get to learn how to have discernment and how to enter into relationships thoughtfully and how to know who are those people we will be investing in probably for a long time.(35:43):And so it's not denying that those impulses are there, but it's letting our bodies metabolize them and work through them. And it makes me think of res, menkin talks about dirty pain versus clean pain, and I think dirty pain is just like, this hurts. I'm going to avoid it. And just disconnect and dissociate clean pain is like this hurts and I'm going to press into it and I'm going to see what it can teach me and how I can grow into a stronger, more mature person through this process.Danielle (36:16):Man, that sounds like some good work you could do with somebody. I think the thing about therapy, coming back to what you said at the beginning is I think we want a quick answer. We want, we want to go to a retreat, we want to show up at the gym. In my case, I go to the gym often. We want to go somewhere, we want to feel like we did it, we accomplished it. And often at the gym, I can hear my coaches are saying just little steps. Every week and above doing lots of weight, it's showing up as much as you can, being consistent. And I kind of hear that in a little bit of what you're saying. It's not like getting to the end right away. It's tracking your body and the sensations and showing up for yourself even in that way.Jenny (37:08):And I think even like that, I love that analogy. I often say relationships are like muscles. They're only as strong as the ruptures that they can handle. And stronger muscles have had more and more and more and more ruptures. We build muscle through tearing and rebuilding. And I think that that's the same with relationship too. But if we've never torn, then we're so afraid of what's going to happen. If there is a rupture,Danielle:I don't know that we're going to heal that, but someone recently said the system is collapsing. It really is. It's coming down on itself. And I think really it's going to come down to the work that you talked about at the beginning, however people are choosing to see it. But one way you talked about it was that monochromatic lens and adding a lens, adding a lens. And I do think the challenge for all of us, even to form something new, whether that means new government, I don't know what it means, but just even a new way of being together set the government aside. It means really forming, adding lenses to ourselves. Jenny, I hope you're coming back to talk to me again.It's okay. Where can they find your stuff? Tell me.Jenny (38:42):Yeah, so I'm on Instagram at indwell movement, and then my website is indwell movement.com. So find me at either of those places, email me, reach out, send a message, would love to connect.Danielle (38:59):Okay, cool. Well, that's a wrap on this episode. If you can share, download, subscribe, tune into what we're talking about. But more important, have a conversation with a friend, a colleague, a neighbor, challenge your therapist, challenge your family. Don't forget to keep talking. And at the end of the show notes are resources, just some resources. They aren't the end all, be all of resources, but I'm putting 'em in there because I want you to know it's important to do resourcing for ourselves. As always, thank you for joining us, and at the end of the podcast are notes and resources, and I encourage you to stay connected to those who are loving in your path and in your community. Stay tuned.  Crisis Resources:Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResource Contact Info What They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call Line Phone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ 24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach Team Emergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/ Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS) Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now” Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx 24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the Peninsulas Phone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-Resources Local crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap County Website: https://namikitsap.org/ Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResource Contact Info What They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988) Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/ Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line 1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resources Help for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line 877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/ Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis Lifeline Dial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resources Culturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Welcome Back Guys!!!We return to the conversation with Wolf Taylor about the effects of gentrification in Brooklyn, how we feel about Dame Dash appearance on the Breakfast Club, if ten guys were trying to fight your girl would you rather run with Charlegmagne or fight with Dame Dash, Cardi B's new album and how we feel about her pregnancy with Stephon Diggs baby, and Camron protecting black women?? Enjoy!Socials Wolf@_WolfTaylor on Instagram

We return for part 2 of our series as we delve into the common misconception that the Ku Klux Klan was primarily a movement of poor white individuals. It explores the historical context of urbanization, industrialization, and the aftermath of war in the early 1900s, examining how these factors contributed to the grievances of middle-class white Protestant men and impacted labor dynamics. The episode will also discuss the founding of the second Klan in 1915, the significant influence of D.W. Griffith's film "Birth of a Nation," and how the Klan evolved from a small organization into a national movement. Listeners will learn about the Klan's prominent areas, their political aims, and why their focus extended beyond Black people to emphasize white Protestantism. A specific segment will explore the Indiana chapter, its unique characteristics, and its unexpected popularity in cities with small numbers of its perceived enemies. Finally, the podcast will analyze the rapid decline of the second Klan by 1930 and how its successes and failures laid the groundwork for future iterations of the organization.   Some Sources The Rise of the Ku Klux Klan: Right-Wing Movements and National Politics The Ku Klux Klan in the Heartland An extended episode can be found on our Patreon    00:10:23 - Whiteness 00:17:55 - Political Economy of the Klan 00:55:28 - Birth of a Nation 01:31:35 - KKK Organizing  01:48:44 - KKK Political Aims 01:58:53 - KKK Decline 02:18:40 - Last Thoughts

Welcome Back To So Shameless!!This week we welcome content creator Wolf Taylor as we talk Traumas traveling adventures in Hong Kong, the Charlie Kirk conversation, is Drake bigger than Hip Hop, Jay Z's failed attempt to put a casino in Times Square and was the gentrification of Brooklyn really a bad thing?Stay Tuned for part two releasing this Friday or head to our patreon to listen to the full episode Ad free right now at Patreon.com/soshamelesspodcastSocialsWolf@_WolfTaylor

We share the dress rehearsal of our ISSTD Presentation about High Demand Religion.When recording this, community feedback included reference to this, as well:"Unlocking Us" podcast episode, Brené Brown had a conversation with Austin Channing Brown about her book, "I'm Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness"https://open.spotify.com/episode/5fCZPAJgoSlrCU7Gj5IFYE?si=wXQuG1P-T66PG5KZhJTQOgOur website is HERE:  System Speak Podcast.You can submit an email to the podcast HERE.You can JOIN THE COMMUNITY HERE.  Once you are in, you can use a non-Apple device or non-safari browser to join groups HERE. Once you are set up, then the website and app work on any device just fine.  We have peer support check-in groups, an art group, movie groups, social events, and classes.  Additional zoom groups are optional, but only available by joining the groups. Join us!Content Note: Content on this website and in the podcasts is assumed to be trauma and/or dissociative related due to the nature of what is being shared here in general.  Content descriptors are generally given in each episode.  Specific trigger warnings are not given due to research reporting this makes triggers worse.  Please use appropriate self-care and your own safety plan while exploring this website and during your listening experience.  Natural pauses due to dissociation have not been edited out of the podcast, and have been left for authenticity.  While some professional material may be referenced for educational purposes, Emma and her system are not your therapist nor offering professional advice.  Any informational material shared or referenced is simply part of our own learning process, and not guaranteed to be the latest research or best method for you.  Please contact your therapist or nearest emergency room in case of any emergency.  This website does not provide any medical, mental health, or social support services. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Jordan Peele's Get Out is a masterpiece both firmly planted in the rich tradition of horror and at the forefront of the growing genre of new Black horror. As auditors of the zeitgeist, we simply had to talk about the splash it made in 2017 and the conversation around its legacy since. In this episode we consider what made the narrative so impactful and we take a closer look at its reception by white audiences and critics who were particularly interested in claiming Peele's work as an example of "Black Excellence." Marcelle and Hannah parse the complexity of the term and pull on Cheryl Thompson's work to understand how "Black Excellence became the veil that shielded people from seeing how our systems and institutions are still rooted in White supremacist notions of ‘success'." To better understand the film itself, Marcelle then draws on “Horrifying Whiteness and Jordan Peele's Get Out" written by Julia Mollenthiel — an artcile that defines a theoretical lens to help us think about the growing genre of new Black horror: “horrifying whiteness.”Even if you're a weenie when it comes to horror, this is an episode you don't want to miss! We promise there are no jump scares!***To learn more about Material Girls, head to our Instagram at instagram.com/ohwitchplease! Or check out our website ohwitchplease.ca. We'll be back next week with a Material Concerns episode, but until then, go check out all the other content we have on our Patreon at Patreon.com/ohwitchplease! Patreon is how we produce the show and pay our team! Thanks again to all of you who have already made the leap to join us there!***Material Girls is a show that makes sense of the zeitgeist through materialist critique* and critical theory! Each episode looks at a unique object of study (something popular now or from back in the day) and over the course of three distinct segments, Hannah and Marcelle apply their academic expertise to the topic at hand.*Materialist Critique is, at its simplest possible level, a form of cultural critique – that is, scholarly engagement with a cultural text of some kind – that is interested in modes of production, moments of reception, and the historical and ideological contexts for both. Materialist critique is interested in the question of why a particular cultural work or practice emerged at a particular moment. Music Credits:“Shopping Mall”: by Jay Arner and Jessica Delisle ©2020Used by permission. All rights reserved. As recorded by Auto Syndicate on the album “Bongo Dance”. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Description: Today, Jen has a discussion with her longtime friend, brilliant thought-leader and activist, Austin Channing Brown. You probably know Austin from her viral first book, I'm Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness, which flew off shelves in 2020 following the murder of George Floyd, as we were witnessing worldwide protests, calls for police reform, and a radical change to our racial justice systems. Countless people trusted Austin to help them unpack and understand the racial reckoning going on in our country at that time. Now, Austin is releasing a new project that shares some of her hard-fought learnings gained since that tumultuous time. Full of Myself: Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self-Possession is a love letter to the black women, like Austin herself, who are exhausted from being everything to everyone but themselves. Across essays titled “I Love Myself When I Am Laughing,” “When I Am Awkward,” “When I Am Failing,” and more, Austin celebrates the fullness of her humanity. Each chapter becomes a mirror, asking women—especially Black women—to consider where they've given themselves away and what it would mean to live with self-possession instead. Highlights from this conversation include: What it means to Austin to be “full of herself”—a phrase she reclaimed as an act of resistance, dignity, and spiritual integrity What happens in our bodies when we operate out of alignment with ourselves What it means to be a Black woman striving to live fully in a world that often demands her silence, her labor, and her conformity And the inspirational, life-saving advice that Austin received from activist, Tarana Burke This is such a good conversation starter and one to be shared, for sure. Thought-provoking Quotes: “I'm sick of white people telling me I have to remain in unhealthy workplaces, unhealthy worship spaces, unhealthy towns in order to save them. Everywhere I go, I'm told I should sacrifice myself for the possibility of whiteness getting its shit together.” – Austin Channing Brown “I grew up in an era that we called racial reconciliation. ‘Racial justice' was too hard. It implied that there were two people who had both done wrong and needed to come together. And the way that was often phrased for people of color was that we needed to teach, we needed to offer grace, we needed to bend over backwards, we needed to touch hearts and minds, endless patience, we needed to watch our tone, we needed to be open and inviting. It was all about what we needed to do.” – Austin Channing Brown “There is an integrity, accountability, and power that comes with being full of myself. And there is a lack of needing to please anybody else. Because I'm full of me.” – Austin Channing Brown Resources Mentioned in This Episode: Full of Myself: Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self-Possession by Austin Channing Brown - https://amzn.to/4k0SQI1 I'm Still Here: Reese's Book Club: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness by Austin Channing Brown - https://amzn.to/4jElqyn Nikki Giovanni, poet - https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poets/nikki-giovanni  Zora Neale Hurston - https://www.zoranealehurston.com/ I Love Myself When I Am Laughing And Then Again When I Am Looking Mean & Impressive by Zora Neale Hurston - https://amzn.to/3FVpGvA Tarana Burke - https://www.taranaburke.com/ Guest's Links: Website - https://austinchanning.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/austinchanning/ Twitter - https://x.com/austinchanning Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/austinchanningbrown Substack - https://substack.com/@austinchanning Connect with Jen!Jen's Website - https://jenhatmaker.com/ Jen's Instagram - https://instagram.com/jenhatmakerJen's Twitter - https://twitter.com/jenHatmaker/ Jen's Facebook - https://facebook.com/jenhatmakerJen's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/user/JenHatmaker The For the Love Podcast is presented by Audacy. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

440. Becoming Full of Yourself | Austin Channing Brown  Author, speaker, and racial justice leader Austin Channing Brown joins us to share why centering the lives and voices of Black women isn't just powerful—it's transformative for everyone. In this conversation about truth-telling, liberation, and reimagining the future, we discuss: -The cost of cultural “belonging” and the radical freedom in refusing it;-Why the difference between justice and fairness matters more than we think;-How embodiment becomes a necessary act of resistance to white supremacy; and-The profound insider knowledge Black women carry that the world desperately needs. Austin Channing Brown is an author and speaker providing inspired leadership on racial justice in America. She is the New York Times bestselling author of I'm Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness, a Reese's Book Club pick. Her writing and work have been featured by outlets such as On Being, Chicago Tribune, Shondaland, and WNYC. Her latest book, Full of Myself: Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self-Possession, is available now. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Victor Davis Hanson revisits some points he made and reiterates that the real issue is the danger of racially divisive language coming from the leader of a major public university in California on today's episode of “Victor Davis Hanson: In His Own Words.” “ Dr. Luke Wood—I think his full name is Jonathan Wood. Jonathan Luke Wood is upset because he gave an interview in which—and it was not sliced and diced. There's a long segment of 30 seconds or so. And you can see it, that segment has not been edited, when he says he wants to “eliminate whiteness.” The problem is that he's on record saying it. It resurfaced. People saw it. And it spread like wildfire over the internet. Hence, my attention to it and my discourse to you about it. But I can't help it if Dr. Wood has said things in his past that seem to be racialist and divisive. …  And yet, nevertheless, he suggests that he's not responsible, I guess, for saying what he did because he said it in 2017 and it's been reappearing, most recently, in clips. ”

Victor Davis Hanson revisits some points he made and reiterates that the real issue is the danger of racially divisive language coming from the leader of a major public university in California on today's episode of “Victor Davis Hanson: In His Own Words.”   “ Dr. Luke Wood—I think his full name is Jonathan Wood. Jonathan […]

Victor Davis Hanson explains what this rhetoric really means, and why this racialized framing is not only intellectually hollow, but deeply dangerous for a pluralistic and Western democratic society on today's episode of “Victor Davis Hanson: In His Own Words.” “He believed that black students on test scores or GPA or by traditional criteria were not competitive with other groups  … and therefore, you had to have a different type of vocabulary, a different type of approach for black students, in a way you wouldn't for other students. This is not gonna work. We have tried that for 50 or 60 years. And we've seen that the Great Society specialization and fixation on race did not work. “This is in the age of post-DEI, in a very reactionary, retrograde approach, that you're going to single out particular groups and you're going to emphasize particular plans, programs based on the color of their skin at a time when we're all trying to transcend it because when we have done that, it didn't work. It created tensions rather than alleviated them. It created suspicion and distrust rather than ending such things. It's a retrograde tribal thought that goes back to pre-civilizational ideas.

Hosts Angela Rye, Andrew Gillum, and Tiffany ask: Why Do Some Black People Feel Like “White is Right”? In too many folks' eyes, a thing ain’t good until it’s been adopted by mainstream (white) culture. The same news story that makes waves on CNN falls flat on BET. The same person buying a fancy sweater from Ralph Lauren will scoff at House of Gray. Black folks are not immune to this, those who automatically trust a white doctor (or other specialist) over a Black one, for example. We have some serious deprogramming to do y’all, start here with us. If you’d like to submit a question, check out our tutorial video: www.instagram.com/reel/C5j_oBXLIg0/ Welcome home y’all! —--------- We want to hear from you! Send us a video @nativelandpod and we may feature you on the podcast. Instagram X/Twitter Facebook NativeLandPod.com Watch full episodes of Native Land Pod here on YouTube. Native Land Pod is brought to you by Reasoned Choice Media. Thank you to the Native Land Pod team: Angela Rye as host, executive producer and cofounder of Reasoned Choice Media; Tiffany Cross as host and producer, Andrew Gillum as host and producer, and Lauren Hansen as executive producer; Loren Mychael is our research producer, and Nikolas Harter is our editor and producer. Special thanks to Chris Morrow and Lenard McKelvey, co-founders of Reasoned Choice Media. Theme music created by Daniel Laurent.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.