Podcasts about collective trauma

BIO: Sandra Van OpstalEXECUTIVE DIRECTOR AND CO-FOUNDER OF CHASING JUSTICESandra Maria Van Opstal, a second-generation Latina, is Co-Founder and Executive Director of Chasing Justice, a movement led by people of color to mobilize a lifestyle of faith and justice . She is an international speaker, author, and activist, recognized for her courageous work in pursuing justice and disrupting oppressive systems within the church. As a global prophetic voice and an active community member on the west-side of Chicago, Sandra's initiatives in holistic justice equip communities around the world to practice biblical solidarity and mutuality within various social and cultural locations.https://chasingjustice.com/sandra-van-opstal/ Giving in Chicago: https://newlifecenters.org/ Ordg to follow in chicagohttps://www.icirr.org/ Tshirt https://secure.qgiv.com/for/peoplearenotillegalt-shirt/Danielle (00:09):good afternoon, y'all. I have a second video coming to you from my dear friend and colleague in Chicago, Humboldt Park area, a faith leader there that collaborates with the different faith communities in the area. And she's going to talk about some ways she's personally affected by what's happening by the invasion there and how you can think about things, how you might get involved. I hope you'll join me in this conversation and honor yourself. Stay curious, honor, humanity, get involved. Take collective action. Talk to your own neighbor. Let's start caring really well for one another.Oh wow. Sandra, you know me. This is Jenny McGrath. This is my colleague. She's a bible nut. She wrote out the Bible How many times?Like scripture nut and a researcher, a therapist and purity culture, kind of like Survivor, but did a lot of work with women around that. And we talk a lot about race and current events. And I restarted my podcast and I asked Jenny if she'd want to join me. She has a great love for justice and humans and making a difference. So that's kind of how Jenny joined up with me. Right. Anything else you want to say?Sandra, I saw your post on social media and I was like, I could do that. I could contribute to that. And so that's what I'm here to do. Want to hear about your experience. What does resilience look like for you all over there? What do you need from us? How can we be a part of what's happening in Chicago from wherever we are? And if there's practical needs or things you want to share here, we can also send those out.Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, where you're located in Chicago, and just a little bit even about your family, if you're willing?Sandra (01:40):Yeah, sure. So it's great to be with you guys. I'm Sandra Van Opal and I'm here on the west side of Chicago in a neighborhood called Humble Park. It's if you see in the news with all that's happening, it's the humble Hermosa, Avondale kind of zone of the ice crackdown. Well, let's not call it a crackdown. The ice invasion(02:06):Here in Chicago. I am the daughter of immigrants, so my mom is from Columbia. My father was from Argentina. They came to live in Chicago when they were in their twenties and thirties. They met in English class, so they were taking TOEFL exams, which is an exam you take in order to enter into college and schooling here in the US to show your language proficiency. And so they met learning English and the rest is history. I grew up here. I've lived here my whole life. I'm raising my family here. I'm married. I have two kids that just turned 11, so they're in fifth grade and sixth grade. And the school that they go to is a primarily immigrant school immersion, Spanish immersion. So it's a school where you take classes basically 90% in Spanish when you start and you move every year a little bit more English until you graduate when you're 50 50.(03:03):And so the school context they've been in has been receiving a lot of new neighbors, a lot of new classmates. And for that reason, actually most of their classes are still almost fully in Spanish, so they should probably be 60 40 right now. But I think a lot of their curriculum is still in Spanish, or the children have the option of having the math book in Spanish or English if they want it. If they're supposed to be English Spanish, or sorry, English math this year, then they might choose to have a Spanish book even if the instruction is in English. So that's the context I live in. I am here. I live in a home. I have chickens and a garden, and I love to be outside watching my neighbors and connecting with people. And we have a black club in our community, so a lot of our information that we're sharing with each other is through our email list and our signal group. Yeah. Oh, also what I do, I run an organization called Chasing Justice, which is focused on the intersection of faith and making the world a better place. And I am a local pastor and author on issues of worship and justice. So that's my function in this world.Danielle (04:31):I think we talk about what's happening in one sense, it seems like social media and other ways like Zoom, we're on a screen with Zoom and we're all in three different locations right now. We think of ourselves as really connected. But then when tragedy strikes or trauma or an invasion, for instance, strikes, we're connected, but it seems like we're also disconnected from one another and the practical needs and storytelling on the ground, and what does resilience look like for one person versus another? Or what does survival versus thriving look like for one person versus another? And how do we kind of join together and form a collective bond in that? I've been thinking a lot about that after I read your post Sandra on Instagram and what does that mean for me? And just as I'm talking, what does that mean for you or what are thoughts that come to mind for you?Sandra (05:27):Yeah, I am think I remember what posts you're referring to, but I think part of it is whenever something happens in our world, I believe that because of the highly digitally connected world that we're in, it feels like we are all supposed to say something. That's how we respond. Something happens and we all go, that's not right, which I think is good, we should say that, but I think the frustration, I'm sure people in LA and DC felt that, but it's like something is happening in your real life every day to your neighbors and everybody all around the country is commenting on it and commenting with such confidence and commenting with such expertise, and you're like, wait a minute. That's not how I would say that. And I think the reason that maybe that post came up for me as a kind of, it was less frustration and more sorrow, I think it felt more, more sorrow that the people that are most impacted by the issues are not the ones that are given the voice to talk about how those systems of oppression are impacting them. And I think the reason I think about things like that is I remember when I first started pastoring locally here. I mean, I had been working for a parachurch organization doing national and international work. I really felt like it was time for me to become a local pastor to understand, hey, if I'm going to be writing to pastors and speaking to pastors and challenging pastors, I should probably know what it's like to be one. And so I was supposed to be a five year stint, which ended up being 12 years pastoring locally.(07:08):And in my discussions with my staff team, I would often have one of them very respectfully, I was the executive pastors in a community with hierarchy. So they would very respectfully say, Hey, your friends that are out there blogging and writing articles and books, they're talking about stuff in ways we would never talk about it. They're talking about it in a tone that we would never use to talk about our situation and with words we would never use to describe our situation. And it's not that my friends maybe didn't have a perspective, it's that it didn't reflect their perspective. And so I think I became very sensitive to that, paying attention to, oh, how do expert justice people talk about issues of justice versus the people that are most impacted by those issues of injustice? Or how do people from within a community express their journey in ways that maybe even have a different tone than mostly anger that was coming out from the justice space?(08:10):And they're like, we wouldn't say it that way. We wouldn't talk about it that way. So I think because of that, it's really important when something happens in a local space and it is impacting us all nationally, national news, that we ask the question, how can I hear the voices of the people that this is most impacting? And so that's why I think I wrote that post. I was like, A lot of y'all have a lot to say about Chicago who don't live here and thank you, but no thank you. Invite us to talk for ourselves, invite us to speak for ourselves because there are local pastors and priests and imams and mental health providers who are experiencing this in a very real way that they probably could shed some light on what would be helpful to us. I called a bunch of friends in Los Angeles when things were happening there, and I was like, oh, how are you guys doing?(09:05):What's really happening? How can we help? If you don't have time to reply back, just know that I'm here praying for you, and I'm like with you and I'm sending money to the orgs. I see you posting and don't know what else to do. Obviously, the ice raids are impacting all of us across the country, but they're impacting each city in very different ways. Each city is a very different city with a very different ethos and a way of handling things. And as you guys know, Chicago is the best. I'm so proud of us right now. I'm so proud of us. We're like, no, you can't talk to us like that. No, you can't have our streets. But it also gets us into trouble because it's rooted in our philosophy of community organizing, though the linsky method, which is agitation, agitation, agitation. So we have stuff to learn too. But that's what you're seeing in Chicago is a lot of agitation. But yeah, that's why I wrote it. I wrote it like, I know 20 community leaders you could talk to here in Chicago that would give you a good idea of what we're experiencing and what would be best for us if you wanted to come alongside of us and help in prayer. So yeah.Jenny (10:27):Yeah, I think just a sense of wanting to hear more, whatever you feel. Well, and whatever feels safe to share in this podcast setting of just what it has been like for you to be on the ground in the community that you're in, in the roles that you're in with the family you're in. I just find myself curious about your experience.Sandra (10:52):Yeah. Okay. So I think about this in three different areas. One is, how is this impacting me as a parent, the other in my family and connected to family members. The other one is how is this impacting me as a neighbor? And then the other is, how is this impacting me as a civic leader, as a faith leader here? And so the hardest one has actually been, as a parent, if I could be honest with you, it's really been hard. Those of us that have raised kids, especially younger children or well all children, they each have their own season of development. But raising kids and being a village for children right now I think is really hard. They've gone through lockdown, George Floyd protests, watching multiple genocides, a war in Ukraine, and now this locally. And I believe in talking to your kids about what's happening and talking to them about it in ways that is appropriate for their age. So that has changed for me since my children were five when the pandemic started and now they're 11. That has changed for me what that looks like.(12:32):But there are many families, dozens of families in their school that have not returned since the ice raids have started. Their friends are missing from class. Ice has repeatedly been around their school. Ice has been on our corner where we grocery shop, get tacos, go to therapy. My son asked me the other day, will they throw me on the ground? If they see me, will they throw me on the ground? And this is one of my sons already struggles a lot with anxiety and he has anxiety, and he's also a black child. And so he's already been processing being black in the context of law enforcement in our city and what's happened. And so I think he kind of went through that season and he's like, so will they throw me on the ground if they see me? And I'm like, no, buddy. They're not going to. Hopefully there's enough cameras around that they'll throw you on the ground.(13:42):And so I think trying to figure out how to answer those kinds of questions. How can we think about our friends? How can we pray for our friends? We've done a lot more prayer in the 15 minute commutes to and from school, I think just for very specific needs that our neighbors are going through. And neighbor that I live in close proximity to the other day was running an errand and was detained by ice and was let go on the spot in the parking lot of the Home Depot, but its someone our kids know really well and helping them to process that. Their friend, a neighbor has gone through this, I think requires a different set of parenting skills and I believe are in most parenting books.(14:48):And so I find myself almost, man, I wish there was a resource for that man. I wish there was a place to talk about that. Let me talk to my neighbor about how they talk to their kids about that. And for those of us that come from Latino cultures, we don't really talk about hard things a lot. We're not really taught to talk about them. It's like we endure them and we go through them, but we don't give them space for processing. And so both of my children are in therapy. I don't know what they talk about in therapy, probably girls and love interests and bullying and all the rest of the things that kids talk about, but I think they probably unpack some of what they're going through with their friends. They are also wanting to make a difference. So we're trying to figure out what does that look for them to make things good in the community they live in.(15:42):So that's the first area is parenting. I don't know if you guys have anything to add advice to give me on that, but I think the hardest thing for me is what do we do with our children? What do we do with a generation that is growing up, watching their government step over so many boundaries, doing things that are completely illegal or unethical or dangerous for our society and feeling like, Hey, we're living in a time, I know a lot of people posted the quote from Ann Frank talking about what was happening in their streets. And I'm like, yeah, my kids are watching that. And I don't know how they're processing it or where they see their faith in the midst of that. I mean, luckily we have an amazing church. We talk about stuff like that all the time. So I mean, yeah, the mayor goes to our church and the pastor's an amazing person, and we have lots of civic leaders and law enforcement in our church. So I think they're watching, they're able to have some mentorship in that area, I think because spoken about from the pulpit, but man, being little must be really hard right now.Danielle (17:09):Maybe we don't need to press too fast, even though we're in a podcast right now. I think it bears the weight of just a little bit of space to just hang with that comment. I have older kids than you. As recently, I told my 20-year-old son who we are not suffering yet, the street raids. For some reason, Seattle hasn't been the focus point yet, but he did lose his federal aid and his Pell grants and everything for college this year. And so him and a lot of other kids had a significant do have a significant college tuition to make up. And we were talking about it and I was like, well, this will be the normal for you. This will be what's normal. This will be what's normal for our family. And my husband actually stepped in and said to me in a moment of despair and lament, because my son wants to be a music teacher.(18:21):He said to me, he's like, but you always tell me nothing's impossible. We can figure it out. And I was like, yeah, I do say that, but I don't believe it right now. He is like, well, he's like, I believe it right now. So I don't know what it looks like to come up with an extra for us. It's an extra $6,000, so we don't have the money yet, but what does it look like? But I think it goes back to that sense of finding some balance with our kids of what's real, what's not giving. What I hear for you, Sandra, and I'm kind of fumbling through my words, so maybe Jenny can step in, but offering our kids the validation of their reality that's so important in age appropriate and the different steps we're in the validation of reality. But I also find myself searching and grasping for where's the hope? Where are the strands of faith for our family? Where are the strands of hope searching for? Like you said, what are the practical actions your boys can do that also kind of I think plant seeds and generate hope in their hearts when we can step out and do actions?Sandra (19:43):Yeah. No, I think the hard part is I can't promise them things will get better. I can't promise them there's going to be an end to genocide in Palestine. I can't promise them. I keep telling everyone, when we pray at night and we talk about our days and stuff, and I just tell 'em, we, my husband and I tell 'em, and the only thing we can promise you is that God is with us. And I think the reality is when you've had proximity to our global siblings, that suffering didn't just start two Octobers ago or even for our own families. The suffering as my African brother once told me at a conference, he said, what do you mean when we suffer? Life is suffering and suffering is life. Or if we suffer, someone said, yeah, if we suffer, it's like some pretty from the west if we suffer.(20:35):It's like no, life is suffering and suffering is life. So I think part of it is we have within our story as people who follow the Jesus way, we have a story of people who have really always suffered. The story of scripture is a story of marginalized, persecuted, displaced people that are wandering in a land looking for home. And in those stories, you find God's presence with them. You find the worship of their creator. You find moments of joy, rhythms of feasting and fasting. You find all the traditions we do now that come out of the story of the people. So I can tell them, baby, I can only promise you that God is with us the same way that God was with, we go through the stories and the same way that God has always been with the black church in America, the same way that God has always been with our Latino community, the same way that God is with our siblings in Gaza, God is with us.(21:35):And so it doesn't take the pain away, but we can know that God is there. I try to teach my kids, lemme tell you, this is so bad parenting. Sorry, you can cut this out if you need to. But the other day we were praying for our country and I said, God, I just pray. Pray for Trump. I pray God, either you would change his heart or you would help him to go to sleep and just not wake up tomorrow. And then my son was like, I can't believe you prayed that prayer. Mom, I can't believe you said that. That's such a bad prayer. I was like, have you read the Psalms?(22:12):I was like, tonight, let's read a psalm. I'm going to read to you what David prayed for his enemies. And just because the Bible calls us to love our enemies and to see them as human does not mean we cannot pray that they will fall asleep. And so I said, I'm not saying I'm going to do anything bad. I know my phone's listening to me right now. I'm not saying I'm going to take matters into my own hands. I'm just saying I wouldn't be sad. That's all. And he's like, he just could not get over it because, and he just kept digging. Papa, Papa would never pray a prayer like that. He would never, I said, Papa hasn't read the Psalms. I read the Psalms. I know exactly what the Psalms say. And I was like, and the thing is because God is for good, because God is against evil and because God knows my heart, he knows God knows how much I love him, and I'm asking him to please take this evil away from our neighborhood.(23:04):Please take this evil away from our country. Please take this evil away. We're living in evil times, Terry. These are bad times. And this is not only a bad person. This is somebody that's raising up all of the badness to be allowed. And so I'm going to pray that prayer every day. And I know that you think it's not good, and I'm so sorry, but tonight we'll read the Psalms. Then that night we read some Psalms. I was like, see what David prays for his enemy. I said, and the thing is, God is there with us in our prayers. He's not like, what? I can't believe she cussed. I can't believe she said that bad. I can't believe she want to be friends with this guy that's too evil. And so I think part of it's processing faith with them. It's like, I don't know what kind of, let's just talk about Jesus and what he said. Let's talk about what the Bible models for us and prayer. Let's talk about It's okay to be mad. It's okay. It's okay to want evil to end. It doesn't mean we take things into our own hands, but it's okay to want the evil to end. And so those are the kinds of conversations where I go home, I'm like, okay, let me just look at my stuff. Is that wrong? Is that theologically correct? I called my husband. Do you think this is theologically okay? Am I mal forming our children? But I feel like it's an okay prayer, isn't it an okay prayer? Those are the kinds of things that are happening. I don't know,Jenny (24:37):I mean, I am not a theologian, but I think it's an okay prayer to pray. And I'm just thinking about, I've had two thoughts going through my mind, and one of course I couldn't and wouldn't want to put on some type of silver lining and be like, kids are going to be fine. They're resilient. And something that we say in the somatic trauma world a lot is that trauma isn't about an event. It's often about not having a safe place to go in the midst of or after an event. And what I just keep hearing is you making yourself available to be a safe place for your kids to process and reimagine what moving through this moment looks like. And also holding that in families that are being torn apart, that don't have those safe places to go in this moment. And I think part of what we're experiencing is this term, the boomerang of imperialism, as you said, these are not new things happening to families all over the world. And the ricochet of how we are now experiencing that in the heart of the empire, where I find my sense of hope is that that is the sign that the snake is eating its head and it will collapse. And I believe in rebirth and regrowth and hope that we can create a world that is different than a world that builds empires that do this to families. And as where my mind goes.Sandra (26:39):Yeah. And I think for ourselves, for our children, for in the work that I do with chasing justice with activists, it's like the only thing I can do, I'm not going to be able to change the world. The only thing I can do is change the little world that I'm in. So what can I do to make a difference and make things good in the world that I'm in? And so it boils down to very, very practical, tangible, embodied unfancy. Things like calling your neighbors and checking in on them to see if they need you to take their kids to school, finding out if everybody got home, okay. When there was a raid in a particular area, asking, or not even asking, but dropping food off for people and saying, Hey, we made a grocery room. We just thought we'd pick up some essentials for everybody.(27:27):Because part of it too is how do you do that without asking your, how do you help your neighbor without asking your neighbor their status? And that's not appropriate. And how do you help your neighbor without assuming they don't have money or making them feel like some kind of project? And so I think part of it is figuring out how to practice mutual aid in ways that are communal that just says, Hey, we picked up this. We figured this week we'd drop it off to five different families, and next week we'll do five other families. Who knows if they need it or not, but at least they know you're thinking of them. I think something you said about trauma, which I think is really important when you work in communities where you have communal, collective, complex generational trauma, which is we're just always living in this.(28:19):I have status, so I don't worry about leaving my home. I also am white. I'm a white Latina, so I'm not like, well, maybe they'll pull me over. Well, I don't know. But I know if I was browner my other family members that would definitely be like, please carry a copy of your passport and your ID at all times. But now I don't leave the house without, I used to leave the house with my keys and my phone, maybe a wallet. I don't know where a wallet is. Now I'm like, oh, I better have my ID on me(28:48):Mostly because if I intervene, I'm afraid if I get arrested, I won't have ID on me. But I think about all the ways that you have to leave the house differently now. And this is for people that they already felt vulnerable in their TPS, in their temporary protective status status or in their undocumented status or in their green card holder status or whatever status they had, that they already felt vulnerable in some way. And now if they don't go to work, their family doesn't eat, so they leave the house. But how do they leave the house? If you go to school every day and you're wondering if your parents are going to pick you up because now you're aware you have this emergency family plan, what does that feel like day in and day out, decade after decade to feel vulnerable? That kind of trauma is something I don't understand in my body, though I understand it as a concept.(29:47):It's the trauma of feeling vulnerable at all times of sending your kids out into the world. And because our US Supreme Court and because our government has decided it's okay to racially profile people, so I keep telling my mom, you better not be speaking Spanish at Target. She's bilingual. I'm like, please do not speak Spanish at Target. Do not open your mouth. And I would never have said that ever in the past, super proud of being a Latina and being bilingual, but I'm scared for my mom. And so I'm checking in on family members who have vulnerable status. I'm trying to find out if everybody's okay. So I think there are, it's like I told my husband the other day, and the car was like, can you imagine having this kind of fear day in and day out for decades at a time in a country and building a life?(30:44):And all of a sudden, many of our DACA recipients or young undocumented folks that are in college, all of a sudden they're not going to finish their degree. They're now in a country they don't even know. They didn't grow up there in a language they don't understand or their spouse is missing. And now they don't know if they're in Swatee, they don't know if they're in Mexico. They don't know where they are. And so I think that, I don't know that I fully understand what to do about that as a neighbor or as a pastor, but to say there must be something within the community like some gift or strength or accessing that helps them endure that kind of trauma when they cannot reach out for help.(31:44):My brother also told me the other day, he's an ER doctor. He's like, man, the county ER is so empty right now because people go to the county hospital for services when they don't have insurance. And many, many of them are Asian, south Asian, Latino, and African immigrants, and now they're not going or Ukrainian or Russian or whatever. So now it's emptiness and churches. Some of our churches are used to be 300 people now. There's like 40 people on a Sunday. So the reporting that I'm hearing from, whether it's the hospitals or just the stores, if you drive down our street, it's like empty nest. It is never empty. There's always people walking around on the street, whole family is going grocery shopping now. There's just nobody out. It's like a ghost town. Nobody's leaving unless they have to leave. And so it changes the feel of a community. It changes the environment. People that need access to healthcare aren't going for their follow-up appointments or their treatments because they're afraid to go to the hospital. People that would normally go to law enforcement if there's domestic violence or something happening, which already would feel very, very difficult to do, are unwilling to do it because they're afraid to leave and afraid to report to any law enforcement. Even in a sanctuary city.(33:18):I don't know what's happening to these families that aren't going to school. I'm assuming that the school has some kind of e-learning doing for them or some kind of packets they're making for the kids in the meantime while they're missing school. But there's all these things that daily rhythms of life that aren't happening. And so for many of us are like, I don't feel like going to church today. Oh, well, I feel like I'm many Sundays. I don't feel like going to church for other people, the privilege of attending worship in a congregational setting is something they'd love to have that they just can't access anymore. And so there's all these things that have changed about our daily reality that I don't know if we're going to fully understand how that's impacted us until years from now. We just don't see an end to it. We're not sure when this is going to end.Danielle (34:13):I have a flurry of thoughts going through my mind as you're speaking. One is when I did a consult with my analyst that I consult with, and we were talking about anxiety around different things with clients, and she was like, well, that's not anxiety, that's terror. And this person should feel terror because that's the reality.(34:45):That's not a pathology. So that's number one just in the therapy world, we don't want to pathologize people for feeling this terror in their bodies when that's actually the appropriate response. When immigration is sitting outside on your street, you should feel terror. Your body's giving you the appropriate warning signal. So I think about just even the shortcomings of Western psychological frameworks to address what's happening. We can't pathologize. It's not about prescribing enough medication. It's not about that. I do think you're right. I think there's some sense of, I've even felt it in my own body as you talk, a sense of, I'm going to engage what Sandra's saying and I'm also going to separate myself just enough in case that happens in Seattle so I can be just distant enough. So I got to get up, I got to eat. I got to feed my kids, I got to make sure everything's happening, got to go to work.(35:40):So I can almost feel it happening. As you describe it, we call it dissociation in psychology world, but in my analyst world, she would call it a psychic retreat, which I really like. Your psyche is kind of in a battle. You might come back from the front line to preserve yourself. And that's kind of how I think of the collective mentality a bit come back from the front lines in certain ways. So you could preserve, I need to eat, I need to sleep, I need to drink some water. I need to breathe air. So that's one thing I'm thinking about that's maybe collectively happening on multiple levels. The other thing I'm thinking about is if you're listening to this and you're in a body, even mine, a same as you, like a light-skinned Latina, white Latina, and our family has a lot of mixed identities and statuses, but if you're not in one of these situations, you can help mental health by going out and getting shit done.Sandra (36:50):Yes, absolutely. Get it done, get it done, get it done. It's like show up, put yourself. I think that's half the battle is how do we show up in spaces? I think white folks have to ask themselves. That's why all the protests, it's like, yes, it's diverse, but it's a whole lot of white people.The reason is because a lot of black folks, brown folks, vulnerable folks, we're not going to put ourselves in a position where we can have an encounter with law enforcement. So one of the things I have to say, talking about church, one of the things our pastor said the Sunday before, not the No Kings, but the immigration protest, it was like maybe a month ago, he said, listen, some of us should not be at that protest because we have a record, because we are prone to be maybe, what is it called? Oh my gosh, we're prone to be singled out by the police. We should not be there. We should pray. We should stay at home. We should host people when they come back and feed them. We should not be there. Others of us, we should be there. And you know who you are.(37:55):And so I think that's part of the discernment, which I think that's literally, it's half the conversations I'm having with people is should my children go to this protest? I fully intended to go to the No Kings protest with my full family, all of us. And I also saw these amazing alternatives like a rally for families and children. And so all these parks all over the city of Chicago, which again, were an amazing city, they had all these alternatives for if your child, someone in your family does not do crowds well, right? You're immunocompromised or you have anxiety, or I thought about, oh, maybe we shouldn't take my son to this protest. Maybe he's going to actually get an anxiety attack. Maybe we should go to this. So we had all those options till the very last minute we're decided to go to Kids Rally, but there were options for us to show up.(38:43):So when you can show up, show up if your neighborhood, there's a ton of activities in, I hope other cities are doing this too, but they're packing these little zines and these little whistles and they're telling people what to do. It's like, okay, now there's this Instagram blast about, oh, the ice is over here, and everyone shows up in their cars and they all honk their horn. You can show up in a neighborhood, honk your horn, you can blow a whistle. And we're fully intending to give away free whistles for every person that buys. The people are not a legal t-shirt for chasing justice. We're like, have a whistle. Get ready. If anything, even if you never blow that whistle, no ice in your town, you're trying to show people that I'm prepared. I'm prepared to raise my voice for you. I'm prepared to show up for you.(39:34):And so it ends up being maybe an artifact or a symbol of our willingness to ally if the time should come. But yeah, some of us, we have more privilege and showing up because I definitely have two lawyers in my speed dial right now because my husband knows that I'm prone to show up in spaces and say things that maybe will get me in trouble. So we had a meeting with a lawyer three weeks ago. He's like, please tell me what to do if my wife gets arrested or if something happens to a neighbor or he's just prepared our community block club emails and texts and signal threads. We have rapid response ready things that are rapid response. So it's like, Hey, where do you see something? I see this is the license plate. Here's a video. I saw just even informing people and praying alongside of one another.(40:29):So we have this group of pastors we gather called Pastors Rabbis and Imams called Faith Over Fear. And so in this group, someone posted like, look at Ice was heavily in our neighborhood. They said arrests that were made or the people that were detained. This is the situation, let people know. So we're just letting people know this is what's happening. Teaching people to use their phones to record everything and anything they can always being ready to show up. So I'm the type of neighbor that would anyway, if I would see law enforcement pulling over a young black or brown man, I would pull the car over and I would get out of my car and I would say, hi, I am Reverend Sandra and I'm here. I live down the street. I'm wondering if everything's okay. Here is everything. And the reason is just to show them that I'm watching. They said, no, everything's fine. I said, okay, I'm just going to sit in my car. Let me know if you need something because I'm letting them know that I'm watching.(41:37):And so I think part of it is the accountability of a community. And I love to see the walking school buses, the ride shares that parents are doing the grocery dropoffs because you can't stand in the food pantry line anymore. The GoFundMe's for particular legal fees, the trying to utilize your networks to find out if you can figure out what district or what holding location you, your loved one would be in offering mental health services. Like, Hey, here are the three organizations that do group therapy or circles or there's going to be a meditation and yoga thing offered at this center. A lot of them have a lot of embodied practices too. So I think those things are great. But yeah, we still have to, we're still living life. We're still submitting book reports for school, we're still having birthday parties and christenings, we're we still black and brown communities have been living through trauma for so long, they can't stop living.(42:53):So the question is how do we invite one another to more wholeness in our living, within our own communities, and then how do we help one another? This is affecting everybody. It's affecting not only Latino communities and not only Asian immigrant communities, but it's also affecting black communities because there's more enforcement and they're not more law enforcement and they're not necessarily targeting black communities, but where there are brown communities, sometimes there are black folks also. And so it's impacting them in just the militarization of our city. I mean, everywhere you go, there's just people marching with weapons and it could be Michigan Avenue in the shopping area downtown near the Bean, or it could be in our communities. And so I think how people are trying to, I think a city like Chicago, because it's got such a rich tradition of community organizing and community development and advocacy, I think it's very set up for what can I do in my world for my neighbors?(44:08):And then for those of you that aren't in Chicago, I think knowing which organizations are doing fantastic things, I think that's really helpful. Within the faith and justice space, I think organizations like New Life Centers that are kind of spearheading some of the new neighbors initiatives already, but they're doing this whole care system for, they're already new neighbors from Venezuela, Ecuador, and Central America who are now more vulnerable. And so they have systems in place for that. There are organizations live free Illinois who are doing more of the advocacy, raising awareness stuff. I can give you a couple, I can put in the show notes, but I think there's organizations that are doing fantastic work. Some people are just, I have a friend who's in Houston who's just like, there's a refugee family who's vulnerable right now and I need to take them groceries. Who wants to give Venmo?(45:06):Me? I think you have to trust your friends aren't going to go out for a nice rooftop beverage and 300, $400 later. Then there's groceries for this. So it's like you may not know anyone, but you may know someone who knows someone who's vulnerable. And so maybe you just are giving money to, or maybe you, I've had people send me money and be like, Hey, maybe someone who needs something. And I'm like, great. And we little, we put it cash and we put it in our car and when we need it, we help a neighbor who's in need. I think I'm calling our friends to, another one I thought of was calling our friend, inviting our friends to action. So sometimes I don't think it's that we don't want to do anything or that we're unwilling to do something. It's that we just feel so stunned. So that news that came out this week in Houston about the 15-year-old autistic boy who was taken by ICE and who has the capacity of a 4-year-old, and I was thinking about him all day long. So I just started pinging all of my friends in Houston and Austin and Dallas. I was like, anybody in Texas? I have a lot of friends in Texas. I'm like, not just, Hey Texas, do something directly. Sending it to them and saying, what have you done?(46:28):Is there a number you can call? Can you gather your small group? They're always asking, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to, I'm like, so I was like, I have something for you to do, and it's in Texas. I'm like, do you know what's happened to this kid? Is he back at home? Can you do something? Is there a GoFundMe for the parents? So I think when we're activated in small things, we develop the discipline of just being activated in general. So it's like if there's a thing that somebody invites you to give to and you give to it, then you get into the practice of giving.(47:06):If you don't start well, then where is it going to happen? So we're thinking right now, I dunno about you guys, but there's nothing in me that wants to do anything fancy right now. I rest for sure. We went to Michigan, we walked around, we took hikes. It was great. It was super free because we stayed with a friend. But there's nothing in me that's like, let me just plan a fancy vacation right now. It's not in me. And I think part of it is, it's almost like a detoxing from an American consumeristic way of seeing celebration and rests. I don't need fancy things to have rest. I don't need, doesn't have to be expensive. I don't know who came up with this. And I think it's a sensibility in us right now, and I've talked to a couple of friends about it, but it's like it's a sensibility in us that feels like it's really tone deaf to start spending a whole lot of money right now when there are so many needs in the world. And no, we can't give away our whole salaries, but we might be able to give more. For example, I don't think our friend should be saying, Hey, my son can't go to college this year. He needs $6,000. I think somebody in our friend groups could be like, actually, I am getting a bonus of $12,000. I'm going to give you three. We should be able to do that for those of us that have access.(48:27):And there are many people who have access, many other people who think they don't have money, but they do. And I think if we invite each other to say, Hey, I want to give to this person's legal fees, or I want to give to this person's college fund, or I want to give to will you give with me? And we are practicing then the kind of mutual aid that's collective that I know our grandparents did for the Latino culture, it's like the RIA system where y'all put the money in every month and every Monday the month. So it's like Koreans do it too. It's like everybody gives a hundred dollars a month and all goes into this pile and every month that pile of money moves around. So it's like our way of providing, I think there's a lot more we could be doing with our money that would give integrity to our voice. And I see a lot of talking and not a lot of sharing.Danielle (49:34):It's so true. It's a lot of talking and it's like, I think we have to get over that old white supremacy norm. If you see somebody on the street, you got to buy them food. You can't ever give them cash. That story rings through my mind as a child and just sometimes you just got to load up the cash, send someone cash for dinner and send someone cash for, I don't know, whatever they need, a bus fare or an airplane ticket or find the miles in your community if someone needs to fly somewhere. Just all these things you're talking about, we kind of have to just get over the hump and just say, Hey, people need help. Let's just go help.Sandra (50:12):And for some of us, I think it's particularly of those of us within our community that are no longer congregating at a local church. I don't know. Did you think the tithe justI think the call to generosity is still there. Whether you want to call your church a local formal traditional church or not, I would hate, I would've hated in our season that we were churchless to have stopped giving out would've been a significant amount of money that would've stopped going out. We still got salaries that year. Well, at least Carl did. Carl got a salary. So I'm like that invitation to generosity, at least at the bare minimum, at the bare minimum, 10% at the bare minimum that should be going out. And so the question is, what did all of us that left churches do with our 10% not to be legalistic because really we should be giving more. The question is, what am I allowed to keep? And for people making six figures, you need to be asking yourselves, why do you need six figures if you don't? Because most of the people, even in places like Seattle and Chicago, are living off of $50,000 a year. So I think as much as we need to ask our government to do well and be integrous in their budget, I think we need to think about that as a place of, and I say that not because I think it's going to solve the problems in Chicago, but I think that money does actually sharing does actually help some people. They haven't eaten.(52:06):They just haven't eaten. We know families whose kids don't eat.Jenny (52:19):Just thank you. It's been really important and meaningful to have your voice and your call to action and to community. I don't take lightly sharing your story and how it's specifically showing up in your community and in your own body and in your own mothering. So thank you for speaking to how you are practicing resilience and how we can think more about how to practice that collectively. It's been really, really good to be here. I am sorry I have to jump off, but thank you Danielle. I'll see you all soon.Sandra (53:23):Yeah, I mean even if you were to think about, you may not be able to provide for anyone, but is there someone in your ecosystem, in your friend group that could really use four sessions of therapy that doesn't have the finances to do so? Or that could really use sessions of acupuncture or massage therapy that doesn't have the money for it, it doesn't have insurance, and of someone who's willing to work with you on that as far as providing that for them. So I think even at that level, it's like if we had to put ourselves in someone else's shoes and say, well, what I want for someone, how would I want for someone to help me without me asking them? I think that is the biggest thing is we cannot, I don't believe we can rely on a person's ability to say what they need.(54:27):I mean, you've had stuff happen in your life. I've had health issues in my own family and problems with my family, and when people are like, oh, how can I help? I'm like, I can't think about that right now. But if a plant shows up at my house that is bringing me joy. Someone just sent me a prayer plant the other day. It's literally called a red prayer plant or something. I was like, yes, I love this. Or if someone buys dinner for my family so I don't have to cook for them, I can't stand up right now. Or if someone said, looks in on me and says, Hey, I know you guys can't be out and about much, so I just wanted to give you some funding for a streaming service. Here you go. Whatever they use it for, that's up to them. But I think to let someone know that you're thinking about them, I think is easy to do with baking something for them, sharing something with them, taking their kids for a few hours.(55:31):Because what if they just need a break from their children and maybe you could just watch their kids for a little bit, pick them up, take them to your house, watch them for a little bit. So I think there are ways that we can practically help each other that again, will make a world of difference to the person that's there next to you. And as always, calling your senators, writing letters, joining in on different campaigns that organizations are doing for around advocacy, checking in with your local city officials and your parent teacher and your schools, and figuring out what are we doing for the kids in our school even to be informed as a neighbor, what is it that our school's doing to protect our families and children? I think those are all good questions that we should always be doing and praying for people and praying specifically. We do that as a family. I think sometimes I don't know what else to do, but to say God to help.Danielle (56:35):Yeah, I mean, I have to go now, but I do think that's kind of key is not that God isn't going to intervene at some point practically, I think we are that active prayer answer for other people we're that answer. I'm not saying we're God, but we're the right. Yeah. Yeah. And just to step into that, be that answer, step into loving when it says, love your neighbor actually doing it and actually showing up and maybe loving your neighbor isn't bringing them dinner. Maybe it's just sitting down and listening to how their day went. Maybe you're not a therapist, maybe you're just a friend. Maybe you're just a community member, but you can sit in and you can hear how rough it was for that day and not take up your own space emotionally, but just be there to listen and then give them a hug and hang or leave. There's a lot of ways to show up and yeah, I'm challenged and want to do this more, so thank you. You'reSandra (57:36):Welcome. Thanks for having me.  Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Vanessa Ogaldez, LAMFTSPECIALTIES:TraumaCouples CommunicationIdentity/Self Acceptancehttps://www.dcctherapy.com/vanessa-ogaldez-lamftFrom Her website: Maybe you have said something like, “What else can I do?” and it is possible you feel stuck or heartbroken because you can't seem to connect with your partner as you want or used to. Whether or not you're in a relationship and you have experienced trauma, hurtful arguments, or life changes that have brought on disconnection in your relationships, there is a sense of loss and heartache. You may find yourself in “robot mode” just going through your daily tasks, causing you to eventually disconnect from others, only to continue the cycle of miscommunication and loneliness. Perhaps you feel misunderstood, and you compensate by being helpful to everyone else while you yearn for true intimacy and friendships. Sometimes you feel there are so many experiences that have contributed to your pain and suffering that you don't know where to start. There are Cultural norms you may feel that not everyone can understand and therapy is not one of those Cultural norms. I believe therapy can be a place of safety, healing, and self-discovery. As a therapist, my focus is to support you and your goals in life and relationships. I am committed to you building deep communications, connections and feeling secure in the ability to share your emotions.Danielle (00:06):Good morning. I just had the privilege and honor of interviewing my colleague, another therapist and mental health counselor in Chicago, Vanessa Les, and she is located right in the midst of Chicago with an eye and a view out of her office towards what's happening with ICE and immigration raids. I want to encourage you to listen into this episode of the Arise Podcast, firsthand witness accounts and what is it actually like to try to engage in a healing process when the trauma may be committed right before someone comes in the office. We know that's a possibility and right after they leave the office, not suggesting that it's right outside the door, but essentially that the world in which we are living is not as hopeful and as Mary as we would like to think, I am sad and deeply disturbed and also very hopeful that we share this power inside of ourselves.(01:10):It's based on nonviolence and care and love for neighbor, and that is why Vanessa and I connected. It's not because we're neighbors in the sense of I live next door to her in Chicago and she lives next door to me in Washington. We're neighbors because as Latinas in this world, we have a sense of great solidarity in this fight for ourselves, for our families, for our clients, to live in a world where there's freedom, expression, liberation, and a movement towards justice and away from systems and oppression that want to literally drag us into the pit of hell. We're here to say no. We're here to stand beside one another in solidarity and do that together. I hope you join us in this conversation and I hope you find your way to jump in and offer your actual physical resources, whether it's money, whether it's walking, whether it's calling a friend, whether it's paying for someone's mental health therapy, whether it's sharing a meal with someone, sharing a coffee with someone. All these things, they're just different kinds of things that we can do, and that's not an exhaustive list.(02:28):I love my neighbor. I even want to talk to the people that don't agree with me, and I believe Vanessa feels the same way. And so this episode means a lot to me. It's very important that we pay attention to what's happening and we ground ourselves in the reality and the experiences of black and brown bodies, and we don't attempt to make them prove over and over and over what we can actually see and investigate with our own eyes. Join in. Hey, welcome Vanessa. I've only met you once in person and we follow each other online, but part of the instigation for the conversation is a conversation about what is reality. So there's so many messages being thrown at us, so many things happening in the world regarding immigration, law enforcement, even mental health fields, and I've just been having conversations with different community members and activists and finding out how do you find yourself in reality what's happening. I just first would love to hear who you are, where you're at, where you're coming from, and then we can go from there.Vanessa (03:41):Okay. Well, my name is Vanessa Valez. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. Before becoming a therapist five years ago through my license, I worked in nonprofit for over 20 years, working with families and community and addressing what is the need and what is the problem and how can we all get together. Been involved with different movements and nonprofit organizations focusing on the community in Humbolt Park and Logan Square in the inner city of Chicago. My parents are longtime activists and they've been instrumental in teaching me how to work in community and be part of community and to be empathetic and thoughtful and caring and feeling like what happens to me happens to us and what happens to us happens to me. So that's kind of the values that I come from and have always felt that were true. I'm a mom of three and my husband and I have been together for 29 years, so since we were teenagers.Thank you. But yeah, so that's a lot of just in general who I am and culturally, I come from an Afro Latina culture. I am a Puerto Rican born here, well born in New York where my family was from and they migrated from Puerto Rico, my grandparents did. And in our culture, we are African, we are indigenous, and my dad is Puerto Rican and Native American. So there's a lot in here that I am a hundred percent all of it. So I think that's the view and experience that I come from is knowing who I am and my ancestors who are very important to me.Danielle (06:04):I mean, that encompasses so much of what I think the battle is over who gets to be American and who doesn't. Right? Yeah, definitely. From your position in your job and you're in Chicago right on the ground, I think a lot of people are wondering what's really happening? What are you seeing? What's true? Can you speak to that a little bit?Vanessa (06:32):Yeah. What's really happening here is, I don't know, it's like what's really happening here? People are really scared. People are really scared. Families that are black and brown, families that are in low income situations, families that have visas, families that have green cards, families that are undocumented, all of us are really scared and concerned, and the reason is because we feel that there is power being taken from us without any kind of accountability. So I see my friends and family saying ICE is in our neighborhood, and I mean a block away from where I live, ICE is in our neighborhood, in our schools. We have to watch out. ICE is in front of our church or ICE is patrolling our neighborhood, and we have to all come together and start throwing whistles and we have to know what it is that we're supposed to do if we get interact, if we interact with ice or any kind of federal agent, which is just in itself disturbing, and we're supposed to just get up in our day and send our kids to school, and we're supposed to go to work and do the things that we're supposed to do.(08:07):So it's traumatic. This is a trauma that we are going through, and I think that it only triggers the traumas that a lot of us, black and brown people and community have been trying to get the world to listen and recognize this isn't new for us. It's just now very aggressive and very violent and going backwards instead of forward.(08:39):I think that's how I would describe what is really happening in Chicago. On the other side, I think there's this other place of, I'm kind of really proud of a lot of our people where I think it is understandable to say, you know what? It's not me or mine, or I got my papers all together, so that's really unfortunate, but it's not something that's happening in front of me. I could understand that there are some of some people who feel that way because it does feel like a survival situation. I think though there are others who are saying, no, what happens to you is happening to me too, I'm going to keep accountable to my power. And there's a lot of allies out there. There are a lot of people who are moving and saying, I'm afraid, but I'm still going to act in my fear.(09:37):And I think that's really brave. So in that way, I feel like there's this movement of bravery and a movement of we've had enough and we're going to reinvent what it is that is our response. It's not this or that. It's not extreme to extreme, but I'm going to do it in the way that I feel is right and that I feel that it's good for me to do and I can be truthful in that. And so today I'm really proud because my kids are going to be protesting and walking out of their school and I'm super, super proud and I was like, send pictures because I'm so proud of them. And so someone could say, is that doing anything? I'm like, hell yeah, doing something. It's doing something. The kids are saying, what power do we have? Not much, but whatever I have, I'm going to put that out there and I'm going to be brave and do it.(10:34):And it's important for us to support them. I feel their school does a really good job of supporting them and guiding them through this and letting us parents know, Hey, talk to your kids about this shadow to Belmont Intrinsic Charter School. But they really are doing something. And I find that in a lot of the schools around Chicago, around the Hermosa, Logan Square, Humbold Park area where I live in Humboldt Park, I find that a lot of the schools are stepping up and saying, we are on the community side of taking care of our kids and what's best for our families. So there's that happening and I want to make sure to give that. We have to see that too.Danielle (11:15):One thing you really said at the beginning really struck me. You said power without accountability. And two things I think of you see a truck, you see a law enforcement person acting without accountability. Not only does that affect you in the moment and that trauma particularly maybe even chase you, but I think it activates all the other sense and remembrances of when you didn't have power and there was no accountability. So I thought of that, but I also thought of the people perpetrating these crimes and the way it's reinforcing for inside their own body that they can do whatever they want and not have to pay attention to their own soul, not have to pay attention to their own humanity. And there's something extremely dehumanizing about repeating and repeating and normalizing that for them too. So I was, those are the two things that kind of struck me at the beginning of what you said.Vanessa (12:14):Yeah, I think what you're saying right now is I think the shock factor of it all of how could you do this and do these things and say these things and not only feel that there won't be any accountability, and I think all of us are kind of going like, who's going to keep this accountable? But I think also, how can you do that and feel okay about it? And so I think about the president that just is, I think a person who I will always shock me all the things that he's doing and saying, it shocks me and I'm glad it shocks me. It should never be normal, and I think that's important. I think sometimes with a lot of supporters of his, there's this normalcy of that's just him. He's just really meaning what he's saying or he's just kind of blunt and I like that about him. That should never be normalized. So that's shocking that you can do that. He can do that and it not be held accountable to the extent that it should be. And then for there to be this huge impact on the rest of us that he's supposed to be supporting, he's supposed to be protecting and looking out for, and then it's permissible, then it's almost supported. It's okay. This is a point of view that other people are like, I'm in supportive.(13:47):I think that sounds evil. It sounds just evil and really hard to contend with,Danielle (13:58):Which actually makes what the students do to walk out of their schools so much so profoundly resistant, so profoundly different. Walking itself is not violent kids themselves against man and masks fully. I've seen the pictures and I'm assuming they're true, fully geared up weapons at their side, tear gas, all this, and you just have kids walking. Just the stark contrast in the way they're expressing their humanity,Vanessa (14:30):Right? Yes. I think, yeah, I see that too, and I think it's shocking and to not recognize that, I think that's shocking for me when people don't recognize that what is going on with I think the cognitive process, what is going on with people in society, in American society where they look at children or people walking and they demonize it, but then they see the things and hear the things that this administration is doing and that they're seeing the things that our military is being forced to do and seeing the things that are happening with ice agents and they don't feel like there's anything wrong with it. That's just something that I'm trying to grapple with. I don't. I see it and you see it. Well, it is kind of like I don't know what to do with it.Danielle (15:34):So what do you do then when you hear what happens in your own body when you hear, oh, there's ice agents at my kid's school or we're things are on lockdown. What even happens for you in your body?Vanessa (15:48):I think what happens for me is what probably a lot of people are experiencing, which is immediate fear, immediate sorrow, immediate. I think I froze a few times thinking about it when it started happening here in Chicago more so I have a 17-year-old little brown boy, and we're tall people, so he is a big guy. He might look like a man. He is six something, six three maybe, but this is my little boy, this is my baby, and I have to send him out there every day immediately after feeling the shock and the sorrow of there's so many people in our generations. I could think of my parents, I could think of my grandparents that have fought so that my son can be in a better place and I feel like we're reverting. And so now he's going to experience something that I never want him to experience. And I feel like my husband and I have done a really great job of trying to prepare him for life with the fact that people are going to, some of them are going to see him in a different way or treat him in a different way. This is so different. The risk is so much greater because it's permissible now,(17:19):And so shock a freeze, and then I feel like life and vision for the future has halted for everybody here.(17:29):We can't have the conversation of where are we going? What is the vision of the future and how can I grow as a person? We're trying to just say, how can I get from A to Z today without getting stopped, without disappearing, without the fear completely changing my brain and changing my nervous system, and how can I find joy today? That is the big thing right now. So immediately there's this negative effect of this experience, and then there is the how can we recover and how can we stay safe? That's the big next step for us is I think people mentioned the word resilience and I feel like more people are very resilient and have historically been resilient, but it's become this four letter word. I don't want to be resilient anymore. I want to thrive. And I feel like that for my people. My community is like, why do we have to feel like we, our existence has to be surviving and this what's happening now with immigration and it's more than immigration. We know that it's not about just, oh, let's get the criminals. We know that this is targeted. There's proof out there, and the fact that we have to keep on bringing the proof up, it makes no sense. It just means if you don't believe it, then you've made a decision that you're not going to believe it. So it doesn't matter if we repeat it or not. It doesn't matter if you're right there and see it. So the fact that we have to even do the put out the energy of trying to get this message out and get people to be aware of it(19:24):Is a lot of energy on top of the fact that we're trying to survive this and there's no thriving right now. And that's the truth.Danielle (19:38):And the fact that people can say, oh, well, that's Chicago, that's not here, or that's Portland, that's not here. And the truth is it's here under the surface, the same hate, the same bigotry, the same racism, the same extreme violence. You can feel it bubbling under the surface. And we've had our own experiences here in town with that. I think. I know they've shut off funding for Pell grants.And I know that's happened. It happened to my family. So you even feel the squeeze. You feel the squeeze of you may get arrest. I've had the same talk with my very brown, curly hair, dark sun. I'm like, you can't make the mistakes other kids make. You can't walk in this place. You can't show up in this way. This is not a time where you can be you everywhere you go. You have to be careful.Vanessa (20:38):I think that's the big thing about our neighborhoods is that's the one place that maybe we could do that. That's the one place I could put my loud music on. That's the one place I could put my flags up. My Puerto Rican flags up and this is the one place that we could be. So for that to now be taken from us is a violence.Danielle (21:01):Yeah, it is a violence. I think the fact, I love that you said at the very beginning you said this, I was raised to think of what happens to me is happening to you. What happens to you is happening to me. What happens to them is happening to me and this idea of collective, but we live in a society that is forced separation, that wants to think of it separate. What enables you to stay connected to the people that love you and that are in your community? What inside of you drives that connection? What keeps you moving? I know you're not thriving, but what keeps youVanessa (21:37):Surviving? That's a good question. What keeps us surviving is I think it's honestly, I'll be really honest. It's the knowledge that I feel like I'm worth it.(21:53):I'm worth it. And I've done the work to get there. I've done the work to know my healing and to know my worth and to know my value. And in that, I feel like then I can make it My, and I have made it. My duty to do that for others is to say, you are worth it. You are so valuable. I need you and I know that you need me. And so I need to be well in order to be there for you. And that's important. I think. I see my kids, and of course they're a big motivator for me of getting up every day and trying to persevere and trying to find happiness with them and monitor their wellbeing and their mental health. And so that's a motivation. But that's me being connected with others. And so then there's family and friends that I'm connected with talking to my New York family all the time, and they're talking to me about what's going on there and them asking them what's going on there. And then we're contending with it. But then, so there's a process of crying about it, process of holding each other's hands and then process of reminding each other, we're not alone(23:12):And then processing another level of, and we can't give up. There's just too much to give up here. And so if it's going to be taken, we're going to take back our power and we're going to make it the narrative of what it's going to be, of how this fight is going to be fought. And that feels motivating. Something to do. There's just so much we've done, so much we've built(23:35):These communities have, I mean, sometimes they show the videos of ice agents and I'm like, wow, behind the scenes of the violence happening, you could see these beautiful murals. And I'm like, that's why we fight. That's why every day we get up, that's why we persevere is because we have been here. It wasn't like we just got here. We've been here and we've been doing the work and we've been building our communities. They are taking what we've grown. They're taking research from these universities. They're taking research from these young students who are out here trying to get more information so that it could better this community. So we've built so much. It's worth it. It's valuable and it's not going to be easily given.Danielle (24:29):Yeah, we have built so much. I mean, whether it's actually physically building the buildings to being involved in our schools and advocating because when we advocate just not for our rights, but in the past when we advocate for rights, I love what Cesar Chavez talks about when you're advocating for yourself, you're advocating for the other person. And so much of our advocacy is so inclusive of other people. And so I do think that there's some underestimation of our power or a lot, and I think that drives the other side mad. Literally insane.Vanessa (25:14):I think so too. I think this Saturdays protest is a big indicator of that. I know. Which you'll see me right there because what are we going to do? I mean, what are the things we can do things and we can do. And I feel like even in the moments when I am in session with a family or if I'm on a conversation with a friend, sometimes I post a lot of just what I see that I think is information that needs to get out there. And I am like somebody's going to see it and go like, oh, I didn't see that on my algorithm. And I get conversations from friends and family of, I need to talk about this. What are your thoughts about it? And I feel like that's a protest of we are going to join together in this experience and remind each other who we are in this moment and in this time. And then in that power, we can then make this narrative what we want it to be. And so it's a lot of work though. It's a lot of work and it's a lot of energy. So then it's a job right now. And I think that's why the word resilience is kind of a four letter word. Can we talk about the after effect? Because the after effect is depleted. There's just, I'm hungry. My nervous system is shot. How do I sleep? How do I eat? How do I take care and sell? soThe(26:54):A lot of work and we got to do it, but it's the truth of it. So both can exist, right? It's like how great and then how hard.Danielle (27:08):I love it that you said it's a job. It is an effing job, literally. It's like take care of your family, take care of yourself, whatever else you got going on. And then also how do you fight for your community? Because that's not something we're just going to stop doing.Literally all these extra work, all this extra work, all this extra job. And it's not like you would stop doing it, but it is extra.What do you think as jumping in back into the mental health field? And I told someone recently, they're like, oh, how's business going? I'm like, what do you mean? How's your client load? And I was like, well, sadly, the government has increased my caseload and the mental distress has actually in my profession, adds work to my plate.And I'm wondering for you what that's like. And it almost feels gross to me. Like someone out there is committing traumas that we all see, I see in the news I'm experiencing with my family, and then people need to come in more to get therapy, which is great. I'm glad we can have that process. But also, it's really gross to say your business has changed because the government is making more trauma on your people,Vanessa (28:29):Right? And I don't know if you experienced this, but I'm also feeling like there's this shift in what the sessions look like and what therapy looks like. Because it's one thing to work on past traumas or one thing to say, let's work on some of the cognitive distortions that these traumas have created and then move into vision and like, okay, well then without that, who are you and what are you and how can you move? And what would be your ideal future that you can work towards that has all halted? That's not available right now. I can't say you're not at risk. What happened to you way back is not something that's happening to you right now that it's not true. I can't tell those who are scientists and going into research, you're fine. You don't have to think about the world ending or your life as you know it ending because the life as people, their livelihoods are ending, have ended abruptly without any accountability, without any protection. It has halted. And a lot of these families I'm working with is we can't go into future that would serve me as let's go into the future. Let's do a vision board that would serve my agenda. But I'm going to be very honest with you, I have to validate the fact that there is a risk. My office is not far from Michigan Avenue. I could see it from here. My window's there, it's right out the window. I have families coming in and going, I'm afraid to come to session(30:25):Because they just grabbed somebody two years ago and no one said anything that was around them. I have no one that I can say in this environment that is going to protect me, but they come anyway because they freaking need it. And so then the sessions are that the sessions are the safe place. The only semblance of safety for them. And that's a big undertaking I think emotionally for us as therapists is how do I sit and this is happening. I don't have an answer for you on how to view this differently. It is what it is. And also this is the only safe place. I need to make sure that you're safe with the awareness. You're going to leave my office and I'm going to sit with that knowledge. So it's so different. I feel it's changed what's happening.Danielle (31:27):Oh man, I just stopped my breath thinking of that. I was consulting with a supervisor. I still meet with supervision and get consult on my cases, and I was talking about quote anxiety, and my supervisor halted me and she's like, that's not anxiety. That's the body actually saying there's a real danger right now. This is not what we talk about in class, what you studied in grad school. This is like of court. That body needs to have that level of panic to actually protect themselves from a real threat right now. And my job isn't to try to take that away.Vanessa (32:04):Right? Right. Yeah. And sometimes before that was our job, right? Of how can I bring the adult online because the child when they were powerless and felt unsafe, went through this thing. Now it's like, no, this adult is very much at risk right now when they leave this room and I have to let them say that right now and let them say whatever it is that they need to say, and I have to address it and recognize what it is that they need. How can I be supportive? It is completely mind blowing how immediate this has changed. And that in itself is also a trauma. There had not been any preparing for, we were not prepared,Danielle (32:57):Vanessa. Then even what is your nervous system? I'm assuming it goes up and it comes down and it goes, what is it like for your own nervous system to have the experience of sitting in your office see shit some bad shit then with the client, that's okay. And then you don't know what's happening. What's happening even for you in your own nervous system if you're willing to share?Vanessa (33:24):Yeah, I'm willing to share. I'm going through it with everybody else. I really am. I'm having my breakdowns and I have my therapist who's amazing and I've increased my sessions with her. My husband and I are trying to figure out how do we hold space and also keep our life going in a positive way. How do we exemplify how to deal with this thing? We're literally writing the book for our kids as we go. But for me, I find it important to let my, I feel like it's my intuition and my gut and my spirit lead more so in my sessions. There have been moments where I find it completely proper to cry with my clients, to let my tears show.(34:34):I find that healing for them to see that I am moved by what they are sharing with me, that they are not wrong to cry. They're not wrong. That this is legitimate. And so for me, that is also healing for me to let my natural disposition of connection and of care below more, and then I need to sleep and then I need to eat as healthy as possible in between sessions, food in my mouth. I need to see beauty. And so sometimes I love to see art especially. So I have a membership to the art museum, a hundred bucks a month, I mean a year. And that's my birthday gift to me every year around March. I'm like, that's for me, that's my present. And I'll go there to see the historical art and go to the Mexican art museum, which is be beautiful. I mean, I love it. And that one, they don't even charge you admission. You give a donation to see the art feels like I am connecting with those who've come before me and that have in the midst of their hardships, they've created and built,(36:06):And then I feel more grounded. But it isn't every day. There are days and I am not well, and I'll be really honest with that. And then I have to tell my beautiful aunt in New York, I'm not doing good today. And then she pours into me and she does that. She'll do that with me too. Hey, I'm the little niece. I ain't doing all right. Then I pour into her. So it's a lot of back and forth. But like I said before, I've done the work. I remember someone, I think it was Sandra, in fact, I think Sandra, she said to me one time, Vanessa sleeping is holy.Like, what? Completely changed my mind. Yeah, you don't have to go into zero. You don't have to get all the way depleted. It's wholly for you to recover. So I'm trying to keep that in mind in the midst of all of this. And I feel like it's done me well. It's done me really good So far. I've been really working hard on it.Danielle (37:19):I just take a big breath because it isn't, I think what you highlight, and that's what's good for people to know is even as therapists, even as leaders in our communities, we have to still do all these little things that are necessary for our bodies to keep moving. You said sleep, eat the first one. Yeah, 1 0 1. And I just remember someone inviting me to do something recently and I was just like, no, I'm busy. But really I just needed to go to bed and that was my busy, just having to put my head down. And that feeling of when I have that feeling like I can put my head down and close my eyes and I know there's no immediate responsibility for me at my house. That's when I feel the day kind of shed a bit, the burden kind of lessens or the heightened activity lessens. Even if something comes up, it's just less in that moment.Vanessa (38:28):Yes, I agree. Yeah, I think those weekends are holy for me. And keeping boundaries around all of this has been helpful. What you're saying, and no thank you. Next, I'll get you next time. And not having to explain, but taking care of yourself. Yeah. So importantDanielle (38:51):Vanessa. So we're out here in Washington, you're over there in Chicago, and there's a lot of folks, I think in different places in this United States and maybe elsewhere that listen and they want to know what can they do to support, what can they do to jump on board? Is there practical things that we can do for folks that have been invaded? Are there ways we can help from here? I'm assuming prayers necessary, but I tell people lately, I'm like, prayer better also be an action or I don't want it. So what in your imagination are the options? And I know they might be infinity, but just from your perspective.Vanessa (39:36):Yeah, what comes to mind I think is pray before you act. Like you just said, for guidance and honestly, calling every nonprofit organization that's within the black and brown community right now and saying, what is it that you need? I think that would be a no-brainer for me. And providing that. So if they're like, we need money. Give that money. We need bodies, we need people, volunteers to do this work, then doing that. And if they need anything that you can provide, then you're doing that. But I think a lot of times we ask the question, what do you need? And that makes the other person have to do work to figure out to help you to get somewhere. And so even though it comes from a very thoughtfulI would say maybe go into your coffers and say, what can I give before you ask the question? Because maybe just offering without even there being a need might be what you just got to do. So go into your coffers and say, what do I have that I can give? What is it that I want to do? How do I want to show up? Asking that question is the first thing to then lead to connecting in action. So I think that that might be my suggestion and moving forward.Danielle (41:05):One thing I was thinking of, if people have spare money, sometimes I think you can go to someone and just pay for their therapy.Vanessa (41:23):Agree. Yeah. Offer free therapy. If you are a licensed therapist in another city, you have colleagues that are in the cities that you want to connect with and maybe saying, can I pay for people that want therapy and may not be able to afford it? Maybe people who their insurance has been cut, or maybe people who have lost income. If there's anybody, please let me know. And I want to send that money to them to pay for that, and they don't have to know who I am. I think that's a beautiful way of community stepping up for each other.Danielle (41:59):The other thing I think of never underestimate the power of cash. And I know it's kind of demonized sometimes, like, oh, you got to give resources. But I find just sending people when you can, 20, 15, 30, 40 bucks of people on the ground, those people that really love and care about their community will put that money to good use. And you don't actually need a receipt on what it went for.So Vanessa, how can people get ahold of you or find out more about you? Do you write? Do you do talks? Tell me.Vanessa (42:39):Yeah, like I said, I am busy, so I want to do all of those things where I'm not doing those things now, but people can contact me through the practice that I work in the website, and that is deeper connections counseling. And my email is vanessa@dcctherapy.com. And in any way that anybody wants to connect with me, they can do that there.  Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

BIO:The Reverend Dr. Starlette Thomas is a poet, practical theologian, and itinerant prophet for a coming undivided “kin-dom.” She is the director of The Raceless Gospel Initiative, named for her work and witness and an associate editor at Good Faith Media. Starlette regularly writes on the sociopolitical construct of race and its longstanding membership in the North American church. Her writings have been featured in Sojourners, Red Letter Christians, Free Black Thought, Word & Way, Plough, Baptist News Global and Nurturing Faith Journal among others. She is a frequent guest on podcasts and has her own. The Raceless Gospel podcast takes her listeners to a virtual church service where she and her guests tackle that taboo trinity— race, religion, and politics. Starlette is also an activist who bears witness against police brutality and most recently the cultural erasure of the Black Lives Matter Plaza in Washington, D.C. It was erected in memory of the 2020 protests that brought the world together through this shared declaration of somebodiness after the gruesome murder of George Perry Floyd, Jr. Her act of resistance caught the attention of the Associated Press. An image of her reclaiming the rubble went viral and in May, she was featured in a CNN article.Starlette has spoken before the World Council of Churches North America and the United Methodist Church's Council of Bishops on the color- coded caste system of race and its abolition. She has also authored and presented papers to the members of the Baptist World Alliance in Zurich, Switzerland and Nassau, Bahamas to this end. She has cast a vision for the future of religion at the National Museum of African American History and Culture's “Forward Conference: Religions Envisioning Change.” Her paper was titled “Press Forward: A Raceless Gospel for Ex- Colored People Who Have Lost Faith in White Supremacy.” She has lectured at The Queen's Foundation in Birmingham, U.K. on a baptismal pedagogy for antiracist theological education, leadership and ministries. Starlette's research interests have been supported by the Louisville Institute and the Lilly Foundation. Examining the work of the Reverend Dr. Clarence Jordan, whose farm turned “demonstration plot” in Americus, Georgia refused to agree to the social arrangements of segregation because of his Christian convictions, Starlette now takes this dirt to the church. Her thesis is titled, “Afraid of Koinonia: How life on this farm reveals the fear of Christian community.” A full circle moment, she was recently invited to write the introduction to Jordan's newest collection of writings, The Inconvenient Gospel: A Southern Prophet Tackles War, Wealth, Race and Religion.Starlette is a member of the Christian Community Development Association, the Peace & Justice Studies Association, and the Koinonia Advisory Council. A womanist in ministry, she has served as a pastor as well as a denominational leader. An unrepentant academician and bibliophile, Starlette holds degrees from Buffalo State College, Colgate Rochester Crozer Divinity School and Wesley Theological Seminary. Last year, she was awarded an honorary doctorate in Sacred Theology for her work and witness as a public theologian from Wayland Baptist Theological Seminary. She is the author of "Take Me to the Water": The Raceless Gospel as Baptismal Pedagogy for a Desegregated Church and a contributing author of the book Faith Forward: A Dialogue on Children, Youth & a New Kind of Christianity.  JennyI was just saying that I've been thinking a lot about the distinction between Christianity and Christian supremacy and Christian nationalism, and I have been researching Christian nationalism for probably about five or six years now. And one of my introductions to the concept of it was a book that's based on a documentary that's based on a book called Constantine Sword. And it talked about how prior to Constantine, Christians had the image of fish and life and fertility, and that is what they lived by. And then Constantine supposedly had this vision of a cross and it said, with this sign, you shall reign. And he married the church and the state. And ever since then, there's been this snowball effect of Christian empire through the Crusades, through manifest destiny, through all of these things that we're seeing play out in the United States now that aren't new. But I think there's something new about how it's playing out right now.Danielle (02:15):I was thinking about the doctrine of discovery and how that was the creation of that legal framework and ideology to justify the seizure of indigenous lands and the subjugation of indigenous peoples. And just how part of that doctrine you have to necessarily make the quote, humans that exist there, you have to make them vacant. Or even though they're a body, you have to see them as internally maybe empty or lacking or less. And that really becomes this frame. Well, a repeated frame.Jenny (03:08):Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And it feels like that's so much source to that when that dehumanization is ordained by God. If God is saying these people who we're not even going to look at as people, we're going to look at as objects, how do we get out of that?Danielle (03:39):I don't know. Well, definitely still in it. You can hear folks like Charlie Kirk talk about it and unabashedly, unashamedly turning point USA talk about doctrine of discovery brings me currently to these fishing boats that have been jetting around Venezuela. And regardless of what they're doing, the idea that you could just kill them regardless of international law, regardless of the United States law, which supposedly we have the right to a process, the right to due process, the right to show up in a court and we're presumed innocent. But this doctrine applies to people manifest destiny, this doctrine of discovery. It applies to others that we don't see as human and therefore can snuff out life. And I think now they're saying on that first boat, I think they've blown up four boats total. And on the first boat, one of the ladies is speaking out, saying they were out fishing and the size of the boat. I think that's where you get into reality. The size of the boat doesn't indicate a large drug seizure anyway. It's outside reality. And again, what do you do if they're smuggling humans? Did you just destroy all that human life? Or maybe they're just fishing. So I guess that doctrine and that destiny, it covers all of these immoral acts, it kind of washes them clean. And I guess that talking about Constantine, it feels like the empire needed a way to do that, to absolve themselves.Danielle (05:40):I know it gives me both comfort and makes me feel depressed when I think about people in 300 ad being, they're freaking throwing people into the lion's den again and people are cheering. And I have to believe that there were humans at that time that saw the barbarism for what it was. And that gives me hope that there have always been a few people in a system of tyranny and oppression that are like, what the heck is going on? And it makes me feel like, ugh. When does that get to be more than just the few people in a society kind of society? Or what does a society need to not need such violence? Because I think it's so baked in now to these white and Christian supremacy, and I don't know, in my mind, I don't think I can separate white supremacy from Christian supremacy because even before White was used as a legal term to own people and be able to vote, the legal term was Christian. And then when enslaved folks started converting to Christianity, they pivoted and said, well, no, not all Christians. It has to be white Christians. And so I think white supremacy was birthed out of a long history of Christian supremacy.Danielle (07:21):Yeah, it's weird. I remember growing up, and maybe you had this experience too, I remember when Schindler's List hit the theaters and you were probably too young, but Schindler's listed the theaters, and I remember sitting in a living room and having to convince my parents of why I wanted to see it. And I think I was 16, I don't remember. I was young and it was rated R and of course that was against our values to see rated R movies. But I really wanted to see this movie. And I talked and talked and talked and got to see this movie if anybody's watched Schindler's List, it's a story of a man who is out to make money, sees this opportunity to get free labor basically as part of the Nazi regime. And so he starts making trades to access free labor, meanwhile, still has women, enjoys a fine life, goes to church, has a pseudo faith, and as time goes along, I'm shortening the story, but he gets this accountant who he discovers he loves because his accountant makes him rich. He makes him rich off the labor. But the accountant is thinking, how do I save more lives and get them into this business with Schindler? Well, eventually they get captured, they get found out. All these things happen, right, that we know. And it becomes clear to Schindler that they're exterminating, they're wiping out an entire population.(09:01):I guess I come to that and just think about, as a young child, I remember watching that thinking, there's no way this would ever happen again because there's film, there's documentation. At the time, there were people alive from the Great war, the greatest generation like my grandfather who fought in World War ii. There were other people, we had the live stories. But now just a decade, 12, 13 years removed, it hasn't actually been that long. And the memory of watching a movie like Schindler's List, the impact of seeing what it costs a soul to take the life of other souls like that, that feels so far removed now. And that's what the malaise of the doctrine of Discovery and manifest destiny, I think have been doing since Constantine and Christianity. They've been able to wipe the memory, the historical memory of the evil done with their blessing.(10:06):And I feel like even this huge thing like the Holocaust, the memories being wiped, you can almost feel it. And in fact, people are saying, I don't know if they actually did that. I don't know if they killed all these Jewish peoples. Now you hear more denial even of the Holocaust now that those storytellers aren't passed on to the next life. So I think we are watching in real time how Christianity and Constantine were able to just wipe use empire to wipe the memory of the people so they can continue to gain riches or continue to commit atrocities without impunity just at any level. I guess that's what comes to mind.Jenny (10:55):Yeah, it makes me think of, I saw this video yesterday and I can't remember what representative it was in a hearing and she had written down a long speech or something that she was going to give, and then she heard during the trial the case what was happening was someone shared that there have been children whose parents have been abducted and disappeared because the children were asked at school, are your parents undocumented? And she said, I can't share what I had prepared because I'm caught with that because my grandfather was killed in the Holocaust because his children were asked at school, are your parents Jewish?(11:53):And my aunt took that guilt with her to her grave. And the amount of intergenerational transgenerational trauma that is happening right now, that never again is now what we are doing to families, what we are doing to people, what we are doing to children, the atrocities that are taking place in our country. Yeah, it's here. And I think it's that malaise has come over not only the past, but even current. I think people don't even know how to sit with the reality of the horror of what's happening. And so they just dissociate and they just check out and they don't engage the substance of what's happening.Danielle (13:08):Yeah. I tell a friend sometimes when I talk to her, I just say, I need you to tap in. Can you just tap in? Can you just carry the conversation or can you just understand? And I don't mean understand, believe a story. I mean feel the story. It's one thing to say the words, but it's another thing to feel them. And I think Constantine is a brilliant guy. He took a peaceful religion. He took a peaceful faith practice, people that literally the prior guy was throwing to the lions for sport. He took a people that had been mocked, a religious group that had been mocked, and he elevated them and then reunified them with that sword that you're talking about. And so what did those Christians have to give up then to marry themselves to empire? I don't know, but it seems like they kind of effed us over for eternity, right?Jenny (14:12):Yeah. Well, and I think that that's part of it. I think part of the malaise is the infatuation with eternity and with heaven. And I know for myself, when I was a missionary for many years, I didn't care about my body because this body, this light and momentary suffering paled in comparison to what was awaiting me. And so no matter what happened, it was a means to an end to spend eternity with Jesus. And so I think of empathy as us being able to feel something of ourselves in someone else. If I don't have grief and joy and sorrow and value for this body, I'm certainly not going to have it for other bodies. And I think the disembodiment of white Christian supremacy is what enables bodies to just tolerate and not consider the brutality of what we're seeing in the United States. What we're seeing in Congo, what we're seeing in Palestine, what we're seeing everywhere is still this sense of, oh, the ends are going to justify the means we're all going to, at least I'll be in heaven and everyone else can kind of figure out what they're going to do.I don't know, man. Yeah, maybe. I guess when you think about Christian nationalism versus maybe a more authentic faith, what separates them for youAbiding by the example that Jesus gave or not. I mean, Jesus was killed by the state because he had some very unpopular things to say about the state and the way in which he lived was very much like, how do I see those who are most oppressed and align myself with them? Whereas Christian nationalism is how do I see those who have the most power and align myselves with them?(16:48):And I think it is a question of alignment and orientation. And at the end of the day, who am I going to stand with even knowing and probably knowing that that may be to the detriment of my own body, but I do that not out of a sense of martyrdom, but out of a sense of integrity. I refuse. I think I really believe Jesus' words when he said, what good is it for a man to gain the world and lose his soul? And at the end of the day, what I'm fighting for is my own soul, and I don't want to give that up.Danielle (17:31):Hey, starlet, we're on to not giving up our souls to power.The Reverend Dr.Rev. Dr. Starlette (17:47):I'm sorry I'm jumping from one call to the next. I do apologize for my tardiness now, where were we?Danielle (17:53):We got on the subject of Constantine and how he married the sword with Christianity when it had been fish and fertile ground and et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, that's where we started. Yeah, that's where we started.Starlette (18:12):I'm going to get in where I fit in. Y'all keep going.Danielle (18:14):You get in. Yeah, you get in. I guess Jenny, for me and for you, starlet, the deep erasure of any sort of resemblance of I have to look back and I have to be willing to interrogate, I think, which is what a lot of people don't want to do. I grew up in a really conservative evangelical family and a household, and I have to interrogate, well, one, why did my mom get into that? Because Mexican, and number two, I watched so slowly as there was a celebration. I think it was after Bill Clinton had this Monica Lewinsky thing and all of this stuff happened. My Latino relatives were like, wait a minute, we don't like that. We don't like that. That doesn't match our values. And I remember this celebration of maybe now they're going to become Christians. I remember thinking that as a child, because for them to be a Democrat in my household and for them to hold different values around social issues meant that they weren't necessarily saved in my house and my way because they hadn't fully bought into empire in the way I know Jenny muted herself.(19:31):They hadn't fully bought into empire. And I slowly watched those family members in California kind of give way to conservatism the things that beckoned it. And honestly, a lot of it was married to religion and to what is going on today and not standing up for justice, not standing up for civil rights. I watched the movement go over, and it feels like at the expense of the memory of my grandfather and my great-grandfather who despised religion in some ways, my grandfather did not like going to church because he thought people were fake. He didn't believe them, and he didn't see what church had to do with being saved anyway. And so I think about him a lot and I think, oh, I got to hold onto that a little bit in the face of empire. But yeah, my mind just went off on that rabbit trail.Starlette (20:38):Oh, it's quite all right. My grandfather had similar convictions. My grandmother took the children to church with her and he stayed back. And after a while, the children were to decide that they didn't want to go anymore. And I remember him saying, that's enough. That's enough. You've done enough. They've heard enough. Don't make them go. But I think he drew some of the same conclusions, and I hold those as well, but I didn't grow up in a household where politics was even discussed. Folks were rapture ready, as they say, because they were kingdom minded is what they say now. And so there was no discussion of what was going on on the ground. They were really out of touch with, I'm sending right now. They were out of touch with reality. I have on pants, I have on full makeup, I have on earrings. I'm not dressed modestly in any way, shape, fashion or form.(21:23):It was a very externalized, visible, able to be observed kind of spirituality. And so I enter the spaces back at home and it's like going into a different world. I had to step back a bit and oftentimes I just don't say anything. I just let the room have it because you can't, in my experience, you can't talk 'em out of it. They have this future orientation where they live with their feet off the ground because Jesus is just around the corner. He's right in that next cloud. He's coming, and so none of this matters. And so that affected their political participation and discussion. There was certainly very minor activism, so I wasn't prepared by family members to show up in the streets like I do now. I feel sincerely called. I feel like it's a work of the spirit that I know where to put my feet at all, but I certainly resonate with what you would call a rant that led you down to a rabbit hole because it led me to a story about my grandfather, so I thank you for that. They were both right by the way,Danielle (22:23):I think so he had it right. He would sit in the very back of church sometimes to please my grandmother and to please my family, and he didn't have a cell phone, but he would sit there and go to sleep. He would take a nap. And I have to think of that now as resistance. And as a kid I was like, why does he do that? But his body didn't want to take it in.Starlette (22:47):That's rest as resistance from the Nat Bishop, Trisha Hersey, rest as act of defiance, rest as reparations and taking back my time that you're stealing from me by having me sit in the service. I see that.Danielle (23:02):I mean, Jenny, it seems like Constantine, he knew what to do. He gets Christians on his side, they knew how to gather organically. He then gets this mass megaphone for whatever he wants, right?Jenny (23:21):Yeah. I think about Adrian Marie Brown talks a lot about fractals and how what happens on a smaller scale is going to be replicated on larger scales. And so even though there's some sense of disjoint with denominations, I think generally in the United States, there is some common threads of that manifest destiny that have still found its way into these places of congregating. And so you're having these training wheels really even within to break it down into the nuclear family that James Dobson wanted everyone to focus on was a very, very narrow white, patriarchal Christian family. And so if you rehearse this on these smaller scales, then you can rehearse it in your community, then you can rehearse it, and it just bubbles and bubbles and balloons out into what we're seeing happen, I think.Yeah, the nuclear family and then the youth movements, let us, give us your youth, give us your kids. Send us your kids and your youth to our camps.Jenny (24:46):Great. I grew up in Colorado and I was probably 10 or 11 when the Columbine shooting happened, and I remember that very viscerally. And the immediate conversation was not how do we protect kids in school? It was glorifying this one girl that maybe or maybe did not say yes when the shooters asked, do you still believe in God? And within a year her mom published a book about it. And that was the thing was let's use this to glorify martyrdom. And I think it is different. These were victims in school and I think any victim of the shooting is horrifying. And I think we're seeing a similar level of that martyrdom frenzy with Charlie Kirk right now. And what we're not talking about is how do we create a safer society? What we're talking about, I'm saying, but I dunno. What I'm hearing of the white Christian communities is how are we glorifying Charlie Kirk as a martyr and what power that wields when we have someone that we can call a martyr?Starlette (26:27):No, I just got triggered as soon as you said his name.(26:31):Just now. I think grieving a white supremacist is terrifying. Normalizing racist rhetoric is horrifying. And so I look online in disbelief. I unfollowed and blocked hundreds of people on social media based on their comments about what I didn't agree with. Everything he said, got a lot of that. I'm just not interested. I think they needed a martyr for the race war that they're amping for, and I would like to be delivered from the delusion that is white body supremacy. It is all exhausting. I don't want to be a part of the racial imagination that he represents. It is not a new narrative. We are not better for it. And he's not a better person because he's died. The great Biggie Smalls has a song that says you're nobody until somebody kills you. And I think it's appropriate. Most people did not know who he was. He was a podcaster. I'm also looking kind of cross-eyed at his wife because that's not, I served as a pastor for more than a decade. This is not an expression of grief. There's nothing like anything I've seen for someone who was assassinated, which I disagree with.(28:00):I've just not seen widows take the helm of organizations and given passion speeches and make veil threats to audiences days before the, as we would say in my community, before the body has cooled before there is a funeral that you'll go down and take pictures. That could be arguably photo ops. It's all very disturbing to me. This is a different measure of grief. I wrote about it. I don't know what, I've never heard of a sixth stage of grief that includes fighting. We're not fighting over anybody's dead body. We're not even supposed to do it with Jesus. And so I just find it all strange that before the man is buried, you've already concocted a story wherein opposing forces are at each other's throats. And it's all this intergalactic battle between good and bad and wrong, up and down, white and black. It's too much.(28:51):I think white body supremacy has gotten out of hand and it's incredibly theatrical. And for persons who have pulled back from who've decent whiteness, who've de racialize themselves, it's foolishness. Just nobody wants to be involved in this. It's a waste of time. White body supremacy and racism are wastes of time. Trying to prove that I'm a human being or you're looking right at is a waste of time. And people just want to do other things, which is why African-Americans have decided to go to sleep, to take a break. We're not getting ready to spin our wheels again, to defend our humanity, to march for rights that are innate, to demand a dignity that comes with being human. It's just asinine.(29:40):I think you would be giving more credence to the statements themselves by responding. And so I'd rather save my breath and do my makeup instead because trying to defend the fact that I'm a glorious human being made in the image of God is a waste of time. Look at me. My face is beat. It testifies for me. Who are you? Just tell me that I don't look good and that God didn't touch me. I'm with the finger of love as the people say, do you see this beat? Let me fall back. So you done got me started and I blame you. It's your fault for the question. So no, that's my response to things like that. African-American people have to insulate themselves with their senses of ness because he didn't have a kind word to say about African-American people, whether a African-American pilot who is racialized as black or an African-American woman calling us ignorance saying, we're incompetence. If there's no way we could have had these positions, when African-American women are the most agreed, we're the most educated, how dare you? And you think, I'm going to prove that I'm going to point to degrees. No, I'll just keep talking. It will make itself obvious and evident.(30:45):Is there a question in that? Just let's get out of that. It triggers me so bad. Like, oh, that he gets a holiday and it took, how many years did it take for Martin Luther King Junior to get a holiday? Oh, okay. So that's what I mean. The absurdity of it all. You're naming streets after him hasn't been dead a year. You have children coloring in sheets, doing reports on him. Hasn't been a few months yet. We couldn't do that for Martin Luther King. We couldn't do that for Rosa Parks. We couldn't do that for any other leader, this one in particular, and right now, find that to beI just think it just takes a whole lot of delusion and pride to keep puffing yourself up and saying, you're better than other people. Shut up, pipe down. Or to assume that everybody wants to look like you or wants to be racialized as white. No, I'm very cool in who I'm, I don't want to change as the people say in every lifetime, and they use these racialized terms, and so I'll use them and every lifetime I want to come back as black. I don't apologize for my existence. I love it here. I don't want to be racialized as white. I'm cool. That's the delusion for me that you think everyone wants to look like. You think I would trade.(32:13):You think I would trade for that, and it looks great on you. I love what it's doing for you. But as for me in my house, we believe in melanin and we keep it real cute over here. I just don't have time. I think African-Americans minoritized and otherwise, communities should invest their time in each other and in ourselves as opposed to wasting our breath, debating people. We can't debate white supremacists. Anyway, I think I've talked about that the arguments are not rooted in reason. It's rooted in your dehumanization and equating you with three fifths of a human being who's in charge of measurements, the demonizing of whiteness. It's deeply problematic for me because it puts them in a space of creator. How can you say how much of a human being that's someone? This stuff is absurd. And so I've refuse to waste my breath, waste my life arguing with somebody who doesn't have the power, the authority.(33:05):You don't have the eyesight to tell me if I'm human or not. This is stupid. We're going to do our work and part of our work is going to sleep. We're taking naps, we're taking breaks, we're putting our feet up. I'm going to take a nap after this conversation. We're giving ourselves a break. We're hitting the snooze button while staying woke. There's a play there. But I think it's important that people who are attacked by white body supremacy, not give it their energy. Don't feed into the madness. Don't feed into the machine because it'll eat you alive. And I didn't get dressed for that. I didn't get on this call. Look at how I look for that. So that's what that brings up. Okay. It brings up the violence of white body supremacy, the absurdity of supremacy at all. The delusion of the racial imagination, reading a 17th century creation onto a 21st century. It's just all absurd to me that anyone would continue to walk around and say, I'm better than you. I'm better than you. And I'll prove it by killing you, lynching you, raping your people, stealing your people, enslaving your people. Oh, aren't you great? That's pretty great,Jenny (34:30):I think. Yeah, I think it is. I had a therapist once tell me, it's like you've had the opposite of a psychotic break because when that is your world and that's all, it's so easy to justify and it makes sense. And then as soon as you step out of it, you're like, what the what? And then it makes it that much harder to understand. And this is my own, we talked about this last week, but processing what is my own path in this of liberation and how do I engage people who are still in that world, who are still related to me, who are, and in a way that isn't exhausting for I'm okay being exhausted if it's going to actually bear something, if it's just me spinning my wheels, I don't actually see value in that. And for me, what began to put cracks in that was people challenging my sense of superiority and my sense of knowing what they should do with their bodies. Because essentially, I think a lot of how I grew up was similar maybe and different from how you were sharing Danielle, where it was like always vote Republican because they're going to be against abortion and they're going to be against gay marriage. And those were the two in my world that were the things that I was supposed to vote for no matter what. And now just seeing how far that no matter what is willing to go is really terrifying.Danielle (36:25):Yeah, I agree. Jenny. I mean, again, I keep talking about him, but he's so important to me. The idea that my great grandfather to escape religious oppression would literally walk 1,950 miles and would leave an oppressive system just in an attempt to get away. That walk has to mean something to me today. You can't forget. All of my family has to remember that he did a walk like that. How many of us have walked that far? I mean, I haven't ever walked that far in just one instance to escape something. And he was poor because he couldn't even pay for his mom's burial at the Catholic church. So he said, let me get out of this. And then of course he landed with the Methodist and he was back in the fire again. But I come back to him, and that's what people will do to get out of religious oppression. They will give it an effort and when they can. And so I think it's important to remember those stories. I'm off on my tangent again now because it feels so important. It's a good one.Starlette (37:42):I think it's important to highlight the walking away from, to putting one foot in front of the other, praying with your feet(37:51):That it's its own. You answer your own prayer by getting away from it. It is to say that he was done with it, and if no one else was going to move, he was going to move himself that he didn't wait for the change in the institution. Let's just change directions and get away from it. And I hate to even imagine what he was faced with and that he had to make that decision. And what propelled him to walk that long with that kind of energy to keep momentum and to create that amount of distance. So for me, it's very telling. I ran away at 12. I had had it, so I get it. This is the last time you're going to hit me.Not going to beat me out of my sleep. I knew that at 12. This is no place for me. So I admire people who get up in the dead of night, get up without a warning, make it up in their mind and said, that's the last time, or This is not what I'm going to do. This is not the way that I want to be, and I'm leaving. I admire him. Sounds like a hero. I think we should have a holiday.Danielle (38:44):And then imagine telling that. Then you're going to tell me that people like my grandfather are just in it. This is where it leaves reality for me and leaves Christianity that he's just in it to steal someone's job. This man worked the lemon fields and then as a side job in his retired years, moved up to Sacramento, took in people off death row at Folsom Prison, took 'em to his home and nursed them until they passed. So this is the kind a person that will walk 1,950 miles. They'll do a lot of good in the world, and we're telling people that they can't come here. That's the kind of people that are walking here. That's the kind of people that are coming here. They're coming here to do whatever they can. And then they're nurturing families. They're actually living out in their families what supposed Christians are saying they want to be. Because people in these two parent households and these white families, they're actually raising the kind of people that will shoot Charlie Kirk. It's not people like my grandfather that walked almost 2000 miles to form a better life and take care of people out of prisons. Those aren't the people forming children that are, you'reStarlette (40:02):Going to email for that. The deacons will you in the parking lot for that one. You you're going to get a nasty tweet for that one. Somebody's going to jump off in the comments and straighten you out at,Danielle (40:17):I can't help it. It's true. That's the reality. Someone that will put their feet and their faith to that kind of practice is not traveling just so they can assault someone or rob someone. I mean, yes, there are people that have done that, but there's so much intentionality about moving so far. It does not carry the weight of, can you imagine? Let me walk 2000 miles to Rob my neighbor. That doesn't make any sense.Starlette (40:46):Sounds like it's own kind of pilgrimage.Jenny (40:59):I have so many thoughts, but I think whiteness has just done such a number on people. And I'm hearing each of you and I'm thinking, I don't know that I could tell one story from any of my grandparents. I think that that is part of whiteness. And it's not that I didn't know them, but it's that the ways in which Transgenerational family lines are passed down are executed for people in considered white bodies where it's like my grandmother, I guess I can't tell some stories, but she went to Polish school and in the States and was part of a Polish community. And then very quickly on polls were grafted into whiteness so that they could partake in the GI Bill. And so that Polish heritage was then lost. And that was not that long ago, but it was a severing that happened. And some of my ancestors from England, that severing happened a long time ago where it's like, we are not going to tell the stories of our ancestors because that would actually reveal that this whole white thing is made up. And we actually have so much more to us than that. And so I feel like the social privilege that has come from that, but also the visceral grief of how I would want to know those stories of my ancestors that aren't there. Because in part of the way that whiteness operates,Starlette (42:59):I'm glad you told that story. Diane de Prima, she tells about that, about her parents giving up their Italian ness, giving up their heritage and being Italian at home and being white in public. So not changing their name, shortening their name, losing their accent, or dropping the accent. I'm glad that you said that. I think that's important. But like you said though, if you tell those stories and it shakes up the power dynamic for whiteness, it's like, oh, but there are books how the Irish became White, the Making of Whiteness working for Whiteness, read all the books by David Broer on Whiteness Studies. But I'm glad that you told us. I think it's important, and I love that you named it as a severing. Why did you choose that word in particular?Jenny (43:55):I had the privilege a few years ago of going to Poland and doing an ancestry trip. And weeks before I went, an extended cousin in the States had gotten connected with our fifth cousin in Poland. We share the fifth grandparents. And this cousin of mine took us around to the church where my fifth great grandparents got married and these just very visceral places. And I had never felt the land that my ancestors know in my body. And there was something really, really powerful of that. And so I think of severing as I have been cut off from that lineage and that heritage because of whiteness. And I feel very, very grateful for the ways in which that is beginning to heal and beginning to mend. And we can tell truer stories of our ancestry and where we come from and the practices of our people. And I think it is important to acknowledge the cost and the privilege that has come from that severing in order to get a job that was not reserved for people that weren't white. My family decided, okay, well we'll just play the part. We will take on that role of whiteness because that will then give us that class privilege and that socioeconomic privilege that reveals how much of a construct whitenessStarlette (45:50):A racial contract is what Charles W. Mills calls it, that there's a deal made in a back room somewhere that you'll trade your sense of self for another. And so that it doesn't, it just unravels all the ways in which white supremacy, white body supremacy, pos itself, oh, that we're better. I think people don't say anything because it unravels those lies, those tongue twisters that persons have spun over the centuries, that it's really just an agreement that we've decided that we'll make ourselves the majority so that we can bully everybody else. And nobody wants to be called that. Nobody wants to be labeled greedy. I'm just trying to provide for my family, but at what expense? At who else's expense. But I like to live in this neighborhood and I don't want to be stopped by police. But you're willing to sacrifice other people. And I think that's why it becomes problematic and troublesome because persons have to look at themselves.(46:41):White body supremacy doesn't offer that reflection. If it did, persons would see how monstrous it is that under the belly of the beast, seeing the underside of that would be my community. We know what it costs for other people to feel really, really important because that's what whiteness demands. In order to look down your nose on somebody, you got to stand on somebody's back. Meanwhile, our communities are teaching each other to stand. We stand on the shoulders of giants. It's very communal. It's a shared identity and way of being. Whereas whiteness demands allegiance by way of violence, violent taking and grabbing it is quite the undoing. We have a lot of work to do. But I am proud of you for telling that story.Danielle (47:30):I wanted to read this quote by Gloria, I don't know if you know her. Do you know her? She writes, the struggle is inner Chicano, Indio, American Indian, Molo, Mexicano, immigrant, Latino, Anglo and power working class Anglo black, Asian. Our psyches resemble the border towns and are populated by the same people. The struggle has always been inner and has played out in outer terrains. Awareness of our situation must come before interchanges and which in turn come before changes in society. Nothing happens in the real world unless it first happens in the images in our heads.(48:16):So Jenny, when you're talking, you had some image in your head before you went to Poland, before it became reality. You had some, it didn't start with just knowing your cousin or whatever it happened before that. Or for me being confronted and having to confront things with my husband about ways we've been complicit or engaged in almost like the word comes gerrymandering our own future. That's kind of how it felt sometimes Luis and I and how to become aware of that and take away those scales off our own eyes and then just sit in the reality, oh no, we're really here and this is where we're really at. And so where are we going to go from here? And starlet, you've talked from your own position. That's just what comes to mind. It's something that happens inside. I mean, she talks about head, I think more in feelings in my chest. That's where it happens for me. But yeah, that's what comes to mind.Starlette (49:48):With. I feel like crying because of what we've done to our bodies and the bodies of other people. And we still can't see ourselves not as fully belonging to each other, not as beloved, not as holy.It's deeply saddening that for all the time that we have here together for all the time that we'll share with each other, we'll spend much of it not seeing each other at all.Danielle (50:57):My mind's going back to, I think I might've shared this right before you joined Starla, where it was like, I really believe the words of Jesus that says, what good is it for someone to gain the world and lose their soul? And that's what I hear. And what I feel is this soul loss. And I don't know how to convince other people. And I don't know if that's the point that their soul is worth it, but I think I've, not that I do it perfectly, but I think I've gotten to the place where I'm like, I believe my interiority is worth more than what it would be traded in for.(51:45):And I think that will be a lifelong journey of trying to figure out how to wrestle with a system. I will always be implicated in because I am talking to you on a device that was made from cobalt, from Congo and wearing clothes that were made in other countries. And there's no way I can make any decision other than to just off myself immediately. And I'm not saying I'm doing that, but I'm saying the part of the wrestle is that this is, everything is unresolved. And how do I, like what you said, Danielle, what did you say? Can you tune into this conversation?Jenny (52:45):Yeah. And how do I keep tapping in even when it means engaging my own implication in this violence? It's easier to be like, oh, those people over there that are doing those things. And it's like, wait, now how do I stay situated and how I'm continually perpetuating it as well, and how do I try to figure out how to untangle myself in that? And I think that will be always I,Danielle (53:29):He says, the US Mexican border as like an open wound where the third world grates against the first and bleeds. And before a scab forms it hemorrhages again, the lifeblood of two worlds. Two worlds merging to form a third country, a border culture. Borders are set up to define the places that are safe and unsafe to distinguish us from them. A border is a dividing line, a narrow strip along a steep edge. A borderland is a vague and undetermined place created by the emotional residue of an unnatural boundary is it is in a constant state of transition. They're prohibited and forbidden arts inhabitants. And I think that as a Latina that really describes and mixed with who my father is and that side that I feel like I live like the border in me, it feels like it grates against me. So I hear you, Jenny, and I feel very like all the resonance, and I hear you star led, and I feel a lot of resonance there too. But to deny either thing would make me less human because I am human with both of those parts of me.(54:45):But also to engage them brings a lot of grief for both parts of me. And how does that mix together? It does feel like it's in a constant state of transition. And that's partly why Latinos, I think particularly Latino men bought into this lie of power and played along. And now they're getting shown that no, that part of you that's European, that part never counted at all. And so there is no way to buy into that racialized system. There's no way to put a down payment in and come out on the other side as human. As soon as we buy into it, we're less human. Yeah. Oh, Jenny has to go in a minute. Me too. But starlet, you're welcome to join us any Thursday. Okay.Speaker 1 (55:51):Afternoon. Bye. Thank you. Bye bye.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Linda Nurra, a certified classical homeopath and flower essence practitioner, joins this episode to share her insights into the world of Bach flower remedies. Growing up in Sardinia, she was mentored by a local herbalist whose influence sparked her lifelong curiosity about natural healing. Linda explains how Dr. Edward Bach developed his remedies using simple methods the sun and boiling techniques, to capture the energetic qualities of flowers in full bloom. She breaks down how these gentle, non-toxic remedies can be safely used by anyone, even alongside homeopathy, to support emotional balance and resilience. We also talk about key remedies like Rescue Remedy and Star of Bethlehem, which Linda often recommends for easing shock, stress, and trauma. Episode Highlights: 03:18 - Linda's Introduction to Homeopathy and Bach Flowers 07:42 - How Bach Flower Remedies Are Made  11:35 - Differences Between Homeopathy and Bach Flowers 14:47 - Clinical Practice and Material Medica of Bach Flowers 17:42 - The 38 Bach Flower Remedies 23:16 - Applications and Safety of Bach Flowers 27:56 - How Bach Flowers Work on Mental and Emotional Levels 34:47 - Bach Flowers for Shock and Trauma 43:58 - Bach Flowers for Collective Trauma and Grief 48:11 - Combining and Dosing Bach Flower Remedies 50:54 - Bach Flowers for Personal Growth and Spiritual Practice About my Guests: Linda Nurra is a certified classical homeopath, flower essence practitioner, and educator with a thriving virtual practice based in Santa Barbara, California. A natural teacher at heart, Linda is dedicated to sharing the wisdom of homeopathy and flower essence therapy in ways that inspire, enlighten, and empower others. Her path to healing began nearly three decades ago with an encounter with flower essences, sparking a lifelong exploration of human emotion, consciousness, and the transformative power of nature. This journey eventually led her to homeopathy, where a profound personal experience with a single remedy ignited her full commitment to holistic healing. She went on to earn an advanced practitioner diploma from the School of Homeopathy (UK) and has since trained with leading teachers around the world. With a background in education, curriculum design, and leadership, Linda has served as curriculum director and lead faculty at the Prometheus Homeopathic Institute and has taught at the Los Angeles School of Homeopathy and the Veterinary Homeopathy Institute. She has also published widely and contributed to the homeopathic community as a board member of the California Homeopathic Medical Society. Today, Linda's work focuses on flower essence therapy—a gentle yet powerful complement to homeopathy that supports resilience and self-reliance. She teaches the popular Bach Flower Therapy for Homeopaths certification course, bridging clinical homeopathy with flower essence practice. When she's not teaching or consulting, Linda can be found connecting with the natural world among the oaks, olives, and grapevines of California's Central Coast—her favorite kind of medicine. Find out more about Linda Website: https://www.insighthomeopathy.com/ If you would like to support the Homeopathy Hangout Podcast, please consider making a donation by visiting www.EugenieKruger.com and click the DONATE button at the top of the site. Every donation about $10 will receive a shout-out on a future episode. Join my Homeopathy Hangout Podcast Facebook community here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/HelloHomies Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/eugeniekrugerhomeopathy/ Here is the link to my free 30-minute Homeopathy@Home online course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqBUpxO4pZQ&t=438s Upon completion of the course - and if you live in Australia - you can join my Facebook group for free acute advice (you'll need to answer a couple of questions about the course upon request to join): www.facebook.com/groups/eughom

Are you truly existing in the world, or are you trying to escape it?This week, Thomas shares an exploration into personal and societal evolution. It all begins with creating an inner spaciousness from which we can engage with the world with embodied presence, even when it's difficult and uncomfortable.This teaching invites you to see challenges as gateways for transformation where innovation can emerge. Thomas shares how this principle applies on a small scale in our personal lives and on a larger scale as our societies undergo a detox process to digest the wounds of the past.✨ Click here to watch the video version of this episode on YouTube:

Danielle (00:20):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations about reality and talking a lot about what that means in the context of church, faith, race, justice, religion, all the things. Today, I'm so honored to have Sarah Van Gelder, a community leader, an example of working and continuing to work on building solidarity and networks and communication skills and settling into her lane. I hope you enjoy this conversation. Hey, Sarah, it's so good to be with you. And these are just casual conversations, and I do actual minimal editing, but they do get a pretty good reach, so that's exciting. I would love to hear you introduce yourself. How do you introduce yourself these days? Tell me a little bit about who you are. Okay.Sarah (01:14):My name is Sarah Van Gelder and I live in Bremer and Washington. I just retired after working for the Suquamish Tribe for six years, so I'm still in the process of figuring out what it means to be retired, doing a lot of writing, a certain amount of activism, and of course, just trying to figure out day to day, how to deal with the latest, outrageous coming from the administration. But that's the most recent thing. I think what I'm most known for is the founding yes magazine and being the editor for many years. So I still think a lot about how do we understand that we're in an era that's essentially collapsing and something new may be emerging to take its place? How do we understand what this moment is and really give energy to the emergence of something new? So those are sort of the foundational questions that I think about.Danielle (02:20):Okay. Those are big questions. I hadn't actually imagined that something new is going to emerge, but I do agree there is something that's collapsing, that's disintegrating. As you know, I reached out about how are we thinking about what is reality and what is not? And you can kind of see throughout the political spectrum or community, depending on who you're with and at what time people are viewing the world through a specific lens. And of course, we always are. We have our own lens, and some people allow other inputs into that lens. Some people are very specific, what they allow, what they don't allow. And so what do we call as reality when it comes to reality and politics or reality and faith or gender, sexuality? It's feeling more and more separate. And so that's kind of why I reached out to you. I know you're a thinker. I know you're a writer, and so I was wondering, as you think about those topics, what do you think even just about what I've said or where does your mind go?Sarah (03:32):Yeah. Well, at first when you said that was the topic, I was a little intimidated by it because it sounded a little abstract. But then I started thinking about how it is so hard right now to know what's real, partly because there's this very conscious effort to distort reality and get people to accept lies. And I think actually part of totalitarian work is to get people to just in the Orwellian book 1984, the character had to agree that two plus two equals five. And only when he had fully embraced that idea could he be considered really part of society.(04:14):So there's this effort to get us to accept things that we actually know aren't true. And there's a deep betrayal that takes place when we do that, when we essentially gaslight ourselves to say something is true when we know it's not. And I think for a lot of people who have, I think that's one of the reasons the Republican party is in such trouble right now, is because so many people who in previous years might've had some integrity with their own belief system, have had to toss that aside to adopt the lies of the Trump administration, for example, that the 2020 election was stolen. And if they don't accept those lies, they get rejected from the party. And once you accept those lies, then from then on you have betrayed yourself. And in many ways, you've betrayed the people who trust you. So it's a really tough dilemma sort of at that political level, even for people who have not bought into the MAGA mindset, or I do think of it as many people have described as a cult.(05:31):Now, even for people who have not bought into that, I think it's just really hard to be in a world where so many fundamental aspects of reality are not shared with people in your own family, in your own workplace, in your own community. I think it's incredibly challenging and we don't really know, and I certainly don't know how to have conversations. In fact, this is a question I wanted to ask you to have conversations across that line of reality because there's so much places where feelings get hurt, but there's also hard to reference back to any shared understanding in order to start with some kind of common ground. It feels like the ground is just completely unreliable. But I'd love to hear your thoughts about how you think about that.Danielle (06:33):It's interesting. I have some family members that are on the far, far, including my parent, well, not my parents exactly, but my father, and I've known this for a while. So prior to what happened in a couple weeks ago with the murder of an activist, I had spent a lot of time actually listening to that activist and trying to understand what he stood for, what he said, why my family was so interested in it. I spent time reading. And then I also was listening to, I don't know if you're familiar with the Midas Touch podcast? Yeah. So I listened to the Midas Brothers, and they're exact opposites. They're like, one is saying, you idiot, and the other one is like, oh, you're an idiot. And so when I could do it, when I had space to do it, it was actually kind of funny to me.(07:34):Sometimes I'm like, oh, that's what they think of someone that thinks like me. And that's when that guy says, calls them an idiot. I feel some resonance with that. So I did that a lot. However, practically speaking, just recently in the last couple months, someone reached out to me from across the political ideology line and said, Hey, wouldn't it be fun if we got together and talked? We think really differently. We've known each other for 20 years. Could you do that? So I said, I thought about it and I was like, yeah, I say this, I should act on it. I should follow through. So I said, okay, yeah, let's meet. We set up a time. And when you get that feeling like that person's not going to show up, but you're also feeling like, I don't know if I want them to show up.(08:24):Am I really going to show up? But it's kind of like a game of chicken. Well, I hung in there longer, maybe not because I wanted to show up, but just because I got distracted by my four kids and whatnot, and it was summer, and the other person did say, oh, I sprained my ankle. I can't have a conversation with you. I was like, oh, okay. And they were like, well, let me reschedule. So I waited. I didn't hear back from them, and then they hopped onto one of my Facebook pages and said some stuff, and I responded and I said, Hey, wait a minute. I thought we were going to have a conversation in person. And it was crickets, it was silence, it was nothing. And then I was tagged in some other comments of people that I would consider even more extreme. And just like, this is an example of intolerance.(09:13):And I was like, whoa, how did I get here? How did I get here? And like I said, I'm not innocent. I associate some of the name calling and I have those explicit feelings. And I was struck by that. And then in my own personal family, we started a group chat and it did not go well. As soon as we jumped into talking about immigration and ice enforcement and stuff after there were two sides stated, and then the side that was on the far right side said, well, there's no point in talking anymore. We're not going to convince each other. And my brother and I were like, wait a minute, can we keep talking? We're not going to convince each other, but how can we just stop talking? And it's just been crickets. It's been silence. There's been nothing. So I think as you ask me that, I just feel like deep pain, how can we not have the things I think, or my perception of what the other side believes is extremely harmful to me and my family. But what feels even more harmful is the fact that we can't even talk about it. There's no tolerance to hear how hurtful that is to us or the real impact on our day-to-day life. And I think this, it's not just the ideology, but it's the inability to even just have some empathy there. And then again, if you heard a guy like Charlie Kirk, he didn't believe in empathy. So I have to remember, okay, maybe they don't even believe in empathy. Okay, so I don't have an answer. What about you?Sarah (11:03):No, I don't either. Except to say that I think efforts that are based on trying to convince someone of a rational argument don't work because this is not about analysis or about rationality, it's about identity, and it's about deep feelings of fear and questions of worthiness. And I think part of this moment we're in with the empire collapsing, the empire that has shorn up so much of our way of life, even people who've been at the margins of it, obviously not as much, but particularly people who are middle class or aspiring to be middle class or upper, that has been where we get our sense of security, where we get our sense of meaning. For a lot of white people, it's their sense of entitlement that they get to have. They're entitled to certain kinds of privileges and ways of life. So if that's collapsing and I believe it is, then that's a very scary time and it's not well understood. So then somebody comes along who's a strong man like Trump and says, not only can I explain it to you, but I can keep you safe. I can be your vengeance against all the insults that you've had to live with. And it's hard to give that up because of somebody coming at you with a rational discussion.(12:36):I think the only way to give that up is to have something better or more secure or more true to lean into. Now that's really hard to do because part of the safety on the right is by totally rejecting the other. And so my sense is, and I don't know if this can possibly work, but my sense is that the only thing that might work is creating nonpolitical spaces where people can just get to know each other as human beings and start feeling that yes, that person is there for me when things are hard and that community is there for me, and they also see me and appreciate who I am. And based on that kind of foundation, I think there's some hope. And so when I think about the kind of organizing to be doing right now, a lot of it really is about just saying, we really all care about our kids and how do we make sure they have good schools and we all need some good healthcare, and let's make sure that that's available to everybody. And just as much as possible keeps it within that other realm. And even maybe not even about issues, maybe it's just about having a potluck and enjoying food together.Danielle (14:10):What structures or how do you know then that you're in reality? And do you have an experience of actually being in a mixed group like that with people that think wildly different than you? And how did that experience inform you? And maybe it's recently, maybe it's in the past. Yeah,Sarah (14:32):So in some respects, I feel like I've lived that way all my life,(14:44):Partly because I spent enough time outside the United States that when I came home as a child, our family lived in India for a year. And so when I came home, I just had this sense that my life, my life and my perceptions of the world were really different than almost everybody else around me, but the exception of other people who'd also spent a lot of time outside the us. And somehow we understood each other pretty well. But most of my life, I felt like I was seeing things differently. And I don't feel like I've ever really particularly gained a lot of skill in crossing that I've tended to just for a lot of what I'm thinking about. I just don't really talk about it except with a few people who are really interested. I don't actually know a lot about how to bridge that gap, except again, to tell stories, to use language that is non-academic, to use language that is part of ordinary people's lives.(16:01):So yes, magazine, that was one of the things that I focused a lot on is we might do some pretty deep analysis, and some of it might include really drawing on some of the best academic work that we could find. But when it came to what we were going to actually produce in the magazine, we really focused in on how do we make this language such that anybody who picks this up who at least feels comfortable reading? And that is a barrier for some people, but anybody who feels comfortable reading can say, yeah, this is written with me in mind. This is not for another group of people. This is written for me. And then part of that strategy was to say, okay, if you can feel that way about it, can you also then feel comfortable sharing it with other people where you feel like they're going to feel invited in and they won't feel like, okay, I'm not your audience.(16:57):I'm not somebody you're trying to speak to. So that's pretty much, I mean, just that whole notion of language and telling stories and using the age old communication as human beings, we evolved to learn by stories. And you can tell now just because you try to tell a kid some lesson and their eyes will roll, but if you tell them a story, they will listen. They won't necessarily agree, but they will listen and it will at least be something they'll think about. So stories is just so essential. And I think that authentic storytelling from our own experience that feels like, okay, I'm not just trying to tell you how you should believe, but I'm trying to say something about my own experience and what's happened to me and where my strength comes from and where my weaknesses and my challenges come from as well.Yeah, you mentioned that, and I was thinking about good stories. And so one of the stories I like to tell is that I moved to Suquamish, which is as an Indian reservation, without knowing really anything about the people I was going to be neighbors with. And there's many stories I could tell you about that. But one of them was that I heard that they were working to restore the ability to dig clams and dies inlet, which is right where silver Dial is located. And I remember thinking that place is a mess. You're never going to be able to have clean enough water because clams require really clean water. They're down filtering all the crap that comes into the water, into their bodies. And so you don't want to eat clams unless the water's very clean. But I remember just having this thought from my perspective, which is find a different place to dig clamps because that place is a mess.(19:11):And then years later, I found out it was now clean enough that they were digging clamps. And I realized that for them, spending years and years, getting the water cleaned up was the obvious thing to do because they think in terms of multiple generations, and they don't give up on parts of their water or their land. So it took years to do it, but they stayed with it. And so that was really a lesson for me in that kind of sense of reality, because my sense of reality is, no, you move on. You do what the pioneers did. One place gets the dust bowl and you move to a different place to farm. And learning to see from the perspective of not only other individuals, but other cultures that have that long millennia of experience in place and how that shifts things. It's almost like to me, it's like if you're looking at the world through one cultural lens, it's like being a one eyed person. You certainly see things, but when you open up your other eye and you can start seeing things in three dimensions, it becomes so much more alive and so much more rich with information and with possibilities.Danielle (20:35):Well, when you think about, and there's a lot probably, how do you apply that to today or even our political landscape? We're finding reality today.Sarah (20:48):Well, I think that the MAGA cult is very, very one eyed. And again, because that sense of safety and identity is so tied up in maintaining that they're not necessarily going to voluntarily open a second eye. But if they do, it would probably be because of stories. There's a story, and I think things like the Jimmy Kimmel thing is an example of that.(21:21):There's a story of someone who said what he believed and was almost completely shut down. And the reason that didn't happen is because people rose up and said, no, that's unacceptable. So I think there's a fundamental belief that's widespread enough that we don't shut down people for speech unless it's so violent that it's really dangerous. We don't shut people down for that. So I think when there's that kind of dissonance, I think there's sometimes an opening, and then it's really important to use that opening, not as a time to celebrate that other people were wrong and we were right, but to celebrate these values that free speech is really important and we're going to stand up for it, and that's who we are. So we get back to that identity. You can feel proud that you were part of this movement that helped make sure that free speech is maintained in the United States. Oh, that'sDanielle (22:26):Very powerful. Yeah, because one side of my family is German, and they're the German Mennonites. They settled around the Black Sea region, and then the other side is Mexican. But these settlers were invited by Catherine the Great, and she was like, Hey, come over here. And Mennonites had a history of non-violence pacifist movement. They didn't want to be conscripted into the German army. And so this was also attractive for them because they were skilled farmers and they had a place to go and Russia and farm. And so that's why they left Germany, to go to Russia to want to seek freedom of their religion and use their farming skills till the soil as well as not be conscripted into violent political movements. That's the ancestry of the side of my family that is now far.(23:29):And I find, and of course, they came here and when they were eventually kicked out, and part of that them being kicked out was then them moving to the Dakotas and then kicking out the native tribes men that were there on offer from the US government. So you see the perpetuation of harm, and I guess I just wonder what all of that cost my ancestors, what it cost them to enact harm that they had received themselves. And then there was a shift. Some of them went to World War II as conscientious objectors, a couple went as fighters.(24:18):So then you start seeing that shift. I'm no longer, I'm not like a pacifist. You start seeing the shift and then we're to today, I don't know if those black sea farmers that moved to Russia would be looking down and being good job. Those weren't the values it seems like they were pursuing. So I even, I've been thinking a lot about that and just what does that reality mean here? What separations, what splitting has my family had to do to, they changed from these deeply. To move an entire country means you're very committed to your values, uproot your life, even if you're farming and you're going to be good at it somewhere else, it's a big deal.Sarah (25:10):Oh, yeah. So it also could be based on fear, right? Because I think so many of the people who immigrated here were certainly my Jewish heritage. There is this long history of pilgrims and people would get killed. And so it wasn't necessarily that for a lot of people that they really had an option to live where they were. And of course, today's refugees, a lot of 'em are here for the same reason. But I think one of the things that happened in the United States is the assimilation into whiteness.(25:49):So as white people, it's obviously different for different communities, but if you came in here and you Irish people and Italians and so forth were despised at certain times and Jews and Quakers even. But over time, if you were white, you could and many did assimilate. And what did assimilate into whiteness? First of all, whiteness is not a culture, and it's kind of bereft of real meaning because the real cultures were the original Irish and Italian. But the other thing is that how you make whiteness a community, if you will, is by excluding other people, is by saying, well, we're different than these other folks. So I don't know if this applies to your ancestors or not, but it is possible that part of what their assimilation to the United States was is to say, okay, we are white people and we are entitled to this land in North Dakota because we're not native. And so now our identity is people who are secure on the land, who have title to it and can have a livelihood and can raise our children in security. That is all wrapped up in us not being native and in our government, keeping native people from reclaiming that land.(27:19):So that starts shifting over generations. Certainly, it can certainly shift the politics. And I think that plus obviously the sense of entitlement that so many people felt to and feel to their slave holding ancestors, that was a defensible thing to do. And saying it's not is a real challenge to somebody's identity.(27:51):So in that respect, that whole business that Trump is doing or trying to restore the Confederate statues, those were not from the time of slavery. Those were from after reconstruction. Those were part of the south claiming that it had the moral authority and the moral right to do these centuries long atrocities against enslaved people. And so to me, that's still part of the fundamental identity struggle we're in right now, is people saying, if I identify as white, yes, I get all this safety and all these privileges, but I also have this burden of this history and history that's continuing today, and how do I reconcile those two? And Trump says, you don't have to. You can just be proud of what you have perpetrated or what your ancestors perpetrated on other people.And I think there was some real too. I think there were people who honestly felt that they wanted to reconcile the, and people I think who are more willing to have complex thoughts about this country because there are things to be proud of, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and the long history of protecting free speech and journalism and education for everyone and so forth. So there are definitely things to be proud of. And then there are things to recognize. We're incredibly violent and have had multiple generations of trauma resulting from it. And to live in this country in authenticity is to recognize that both are true and we're stuck with the history, but we're not stuck without being able to deal with that. We can do restitution and reparations and we can heal from that.Danielle (30:15):How do you stay connected even just to your own self in that dissonance that you just described?Sarah (30:30):Well, I think part of having compassion is to recognize that we're imperfect beings as individuals, but we're also imperfect as cultures. And so for me, I can live with, I mean, this is something I've lived with ever since I was in India, really. And I looked around and noticed that there were all these kids my own age who were impoverished and I was not. And that I knew I have enough to eat at the end of the day, and I knew that many of them would not have enough to eat. So it's always been a challenge for me. And so my response to that has been when I was a kid was, well, I don't understand how that happened. It's certainly not right. I don't understand how it could be, and I'm going to do my best to understand it, and then I'll do my part to try to change it. And I basically had the same view ever since then, which is there's only so much I can do, but I'll do everything I can, including examining my own complicity and working through issues that I might be carrying as somebody who grew up in a white supremacist culture, working on that internally, and then also working in community and working as an activist in a writer in any way I can think of that I can make a contribution.(31:56):But I really do believe that healing is possible. And so when I think about the people that are causing that I feel like are not dealing with the harm that they're creating, I still feel just somebody who goes to prison for doing a crime that's not the whole of who they are. And so they're going to have to ultimately make the choice about whether they're going to heal and reconcile and repair the damage they will have to make that choice. But for my part, I always want to keep that door open in my relationship with them and in my writing and in any other way, I want to keep the door open.Danielle (32:43):And I hear that, and I'm like, that's noble. And it's so hard to do to keep that door open. So what are some of the tools you use, even just on your own that help you keep that door open to conversation, even to feeling compassion for people maybe you don't agree with? What are some of the things, maybe their internal resources, external resources could be like, I don't know, somebody you read, go back to and read. Yeah. What helps you?Sarah (33:16):Well, the most important thing for me to keep my sanity is a combination of getting exercise and getting outside(33:27):And hanging out with my granddaughter and other people I love outside of political spaces because the political spaces get back into the stress. So yeah, I mean the exercise, I just feel like being grounded in our bodies is so important. And partly that the experience of fear and anxiety show up in our bodies, and we can also process them through being really active. So I'm kind of worried that if I get to the point where I'm too old to be able to really move, whether I'll be able to process as well. So there's that in terms of the natural world, this aliveness that I feel like transcends me and certainly humanity and just an aliveness that I just kind of open my senses to. And then it's sort, they call it forest bathing or don't have to be in a forest to do it, but just sort of allowing that aliveness to wash over me and to sort of celebrate it and to remember that we're all part of that aliveness. And then spending time with a 2-year-old is like, okay, anything that I may be hung up on, it becomes completely irrelevant to her experience.Danielle (35:12):I love that. Sarah, for you, even though I know you heard, you're still asking these questions yourself, what would you tell people to do if they're listening and they're like, and they're like, man, I don't know how to even start a conversation with someone that thinks different than me. I don't know how to even be in the same room them, and I'm not saying that your answers can apply to everybody. Mine certainly don't either, like you and me are just having a conversation. We're just talking it out. But what are some of the things you go to if you know you're going to be with people Yeah. That think differently than you, and how do you think about it?Sarah (35:54):Yeah, I mean, I don't feel particularly proud of this because I don't feel very capable of having a direct conversation with somebody who's, because I don't know how to get to a foundational level that we have in common, except sometimes we do. Sometimes it's like family, and sometimes it's like, what did you do for the weekend? And so it can feel like small talk, but it can also have an element of just recognizing that we're each in a body, in perhaps in a family living our lives struggling with how to live well. And so I usually don't try to get very far beyond that, honestly. And again, I'm not proud of that because I would love to have conversations that are enlightening for me and the other person. And my go-to is really much more basic than that.Maybe it is. And maybe it creates enough sense of safety that someday that other level of conversation can happen, even if it can't happen right away.Danielle (37:14):Well, Sarah, tell me if people are looking for your writing and know you write a blog, tell me a little bit about that and where to find you. Okay.Sarah (37:26):Yeah, my blog is called How We Rise, and it's on Substack. And so I'm writing now and then, and I'm also writing somewhat for Truth Out Truth out.org has adopted the Yes Archive, which I'm very grateful to them for because they're going to keep it available so people can continue to research and find articles there that are still relevant. And they're going to be continuing to do a monthly newsletter where they're going to draw on Yes, archives to tell stories about what's going on now. Yes, archives that are specifically relevant. So I recommend that. And otherwise, I'm just right now working on a draft of an op-ed about Palestine, which I hope I can get published. So I'm sort of doing a little of this and a little of that, but I don't feel like I have a clear focus. The chaos of what's going on nationally is so overwhelming, and I keep wanting to come back to my own and my own focus of writing, but I can't say that I've gotten there yet.Danielle (38:41):I hear you. Well, I hope you'll be back, and hopefully we can have more conversations. And just thanks a lot for being willing to just talk about stuff we don't know everything about.As always, thank you for joining us, and at the end of the podcast are notes and resources, and I encourage you to stay connected to those who are loving in your path and in your community. Stay tuned.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

“Our history is not a history of divide. Our history is a history of coming together in greater and greater numbers.” - john a. powellIn this special bonus episode, Thomas sits down with john a. powell, law professor and Director of the Othering and Belonging Institute, to investigate the root causes and social function of “othering.”Humans are wired for connection, and according to john, othering is actually an unfortunate byproduct of our desire to belong and survive within a specific group.He and Thomas explore how storytelling has shaped the trajectory of human evolution, and how we can embrace our inherent interconnectedness to write more inclusive and peaceful stories for our shared future.If you'd like to hear the full conversation between john and Thomas, it's one of over 30 talks included in the upcoming Collective Trauma Summit 2025. Click on the link below to register for this free online event.✨ Click here to watch the video version of this episode on YouTube:

Bio: Jenny - Co-Host Podcast (er):I am Jenny! (She/Her) MACP, LMHCI am a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Somatic Experiencing® Practitioner, Certified Yoga Teacher, and an Approved Supervisor in the state of Washington.I have spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. I have come to see that our bodies know what they need. By approaching our body with curiosity we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens!I was raised within fundamentalist Christianity. I have been, and am still on my own journey of healing from religious trauma and religious sexual shame (as well as consistently engaging my entanglement with white saviorism). I am a white, straight, able-bodied, cis woman. I recognize the power and privilege this affords me socially, and I am committed to understanding my bias' and privilege in the work that I do. I am LGBTQIA+ affirming and actively engage critical race theory and consultation to see a better way forward that honors all bodies of various sizes, races, ability, religion, gender, and sexuality.I am immensely grateful for the teachers, healers, therapists, and friends (and of course my husband and dog!) for the healing I have been offered. I strive to pay it forward with my clients and students. Few things make me happier than seeing people live freely in their bodies from the inside out!Danielle (00:28):Welcome to the Arise Podcast, conversations based in what our reality is, faith, race, justice, gender in the church, therapy, all matter of things considered just exploring this topic of reality. Hey, I'm having this regular podcast co-host. Her name is Jenny McGrath. She's an M-A-C-P-L-M-H-C. She's dope. She's a licensed mental health counselor, a somatic experiencing practitioner, certified yoga teacher, and an approved supervisor in the state of Washington. She spent over a decade researching the ways in which the body can heal from trauma through movement and connection. And she's come to see that bodies are so important and she believes that by approaching the body with curiosity, we can begin to listen to the innate wisdom our body has to teach us. And that is where the magic happens. So I hope you're as thrilled as me to have such an amazing co-host join me. Yeah, we're going to talk about reality and therapy. We're just jumping in. Jenny and I are both writing books.Jenny, I think it's funny that we are good friends and we see each other when we're around each other, but then if not, we're always trading reels and often they're like parodies on real life. Funny things about real life that are happening, which I've been, the theme of my book is called Splitting, and I know you write about purity culture, and a part of that I think really has to do with what is our reality and how is it formed? And then that shapes what we do, how we act, how we behave in the world, how we relate to each other. So any thoughts on that? On Thursday, September 25th,Jenny (02:17):I mean, as you named that, I think 10 minutes before this started, I sent you a reel. There was a comedian singing Why She Doesn't Go to Therapy, and it says, all my friends that go to therapy are mean to me, and you don't have boundaries. You're just being an asshole. And it was good, but it was also existential. This was what seems to me a white woman. And I do think as a white woman who's a therapist, I feel existential a lot about the work I do in therapy and in healing spaces, and how we do this in a way that doesn't promote this hyper individualistic reality. And this idea that everything I see and everything I think is the way that it is, how do I stay open to more of a communal or collective way of knowing? And I think that that's a challenging thing. So that's something that comes to mind for me as you bring up Instagram reels.Danielle (03:26):Oh man, I have so many thoughts on that that I wasn't thinking before you said it, but I think they were all locked in a vault, been unleashed. No, seriously. You come from your own position in the world. Talk about your position and how did you come to that point of seeing more of a collective mindset or reality point of view?Jenny (03:47):I mean, honestly, I think a big part has been knowing you and working with you and knowing that I think we've had conversations over the years of both the privilege and the detriment that happens in a lot of white therapeutic spaces that say you just need detach from your family, from your community, from those who have harmed you. And I want to be very, very clear and very careful that obviously I do think that there are situations we need to extract ourselves from and remove ourselves from. And I think that can become disabling for bodies to, I've been having this thing play in my head lately where I'm like, are you healed? Or have you just cut off everyone that triggers you?Yeah, and I saw another, speaking of meme, it was like, I treat my trauma like Trump treats tariffs. I just implement boundaries arbitrarily, and they harm everyone.And so I think it's, there is a certain privilege that comes with being able to say, I'm just going to step away. I'm going to do my own thing. I'm going to do my healing journey. And I think there is a detriment to that and there's a loss. And I think we have co-evolved to be in community and to tell stories and to share reality and to hold reality in the tension of our space. I think about it as we each have a different lens. There's no objective reality, but if I can be open to your lens and you can be open to my lens, then we actually have two lenses, and then if we have five lenses or 10 lenses, we can have a much fuller picture of where we are rather than seeing the world through the really monochromatic white, patriarchal, Christian nationalist lens that we've been maybe conditioned, or at least I was conditioned to see the world through.Danielle (06:10):Yeah. Whoa. Yeah, I know we've talked about this so many times, and I think it just feels so present right now, especially as every moment it feels like every day. If you watch the news, if you don't take a break, I think you can be jarred at any moment or dissociated at any moment, or traumatized at any moment, or maybe feel a bit of joy too when someone says a smack down on your side of the issue. And I think that when we get in that mode of constantly being jarred and then we try to come into a healing space, it's like how do we determine then what is actually healing for us? What is actually good? What is actually wise? And I agree, I think if we're in a rhythm of being on our own, and I'm not criticizing, I mean, I get lonely and I'm part of a group, so I'm not speaking to loneliness particularly, but I'm speaking to the idea that no one else has input in your life, even the kind of input you may not agree with, but no one else is allowed to speak to you.(07:15):When I get in those spaces, it's not that I just feel lonely, I don't feel any hope. I don't feel any movement or any possibility because let's say that this ends tomorrow, that authoritarian regime magically ends. It's healed tomorrow. We're going to have to look at all of our people in our lives and face them and decide what we're going to do. I mean, that's what I think about a lot. At the end of the day, I might sit next to someone that hates me or that I perhaps might have rage and anger towards them. What are we going to do? So I don't know, when you talk about the different lenses, I'm not sure how that all mixes together. I don't have an answer, basically. Shoot.Jenny (08:05):But I also think that that's part of maybe how we hold reality is maybe it is more about presence and being with what is, rather than having an answer, I think I become more and more skeptical of anyone who says they have an answer for anything.Danielle (08:31):So I mean, there was this guy that recently passed away, and there was, on one hand I wanted to really talk about it, and on the other hand, I didn't want to talk about it because it took up so much space. And I feel that even as we start to talk about how do we form healing spaces in therapy with that, I think, what did you call it that, what kind of lens did you say? It was like a monochromatic lens. How do we talk about that without centering it?Jenny (09:08):I think one thing that comes to mind is holding it in context of all of the other deaths that have not taken up that space. And the social studies phrase, what are the conditions of possibility that have enabled this death to create church services happening that have taken over people's social media, people who have been silent about lots of different deaths in the last year or five years, all of a sudden can't help but become really vigilant about talking about this. I think for me, it helps to zoom back and go, how come? Why is this so prevalent? Why is this so loud? What is this illuminating or what is this unearthing about? What's already been here?So I grew up in very fundamentalist, white evangelical Christianity. And from the time I was eight, nine years old, I had in me messages instilled of martyrdom, whether that was a message that I should be a martyr, or whether that was a message that Christians were already being martyred, whether that was the war against Christmas with Starbucks cups or not having prayers happen at school. And these things where I grew up in this world where we were supposed to be prominent, we were supposed to be prevalent, we were supposed to be protected. And whenever there was any challenge to that from bodies that weren't white or straight or Christian or American, there became this very real frenzy around martyrdom. And I think on an interpersonal level and on a collective level, someone who plays the victim will always hold the most power in the relational dynamic. And so I think that this moment was a very useful moment to that psyche and that reality of seeing the world as a victim, as a martyr, as being persecuted, regardless of the fact that evangelical Christians are the strongest floating block in our nation. They have incredible privilege when it comes to a lot of education, marriage inequality, things like that, that are from the long lineage of Christian nationalism in our country.Danielle (12:15):So then how do you work with folks that are coming in with that lens, and what's the responsibility of our field? I know you and I can't answer that question necessarily, but we can just say from our own experience what that's like. Are you willing to share a little bit of that?What would I say? My client load is mixed and so do a lot of work, but just because it's mixed doesn't mean that I'm not currently undoing that process in myself as well. So I think just as much as therapy is about whoever comes into my office or shows up in the zoom room or even a group or a teaching we've been a part of, I think it's, well, I mean we say this co-created, but I actually mean it means I have to keep learning. I have to keep trying to be in my body. And what I mean by that is I was talking to my friend Phil yesterday, and he was like, Danielle, are you tracking your body sensations? And he's like, I just challenge you to do that today. And I was like, man, that that's a good reminder. So I think one way I try to come with clients is from the perspective of I don't know it all.(13:38):I only know what I'm feeling and sensing in this moment, and I have that to offer along with other things I've studied, of course. But just because the person sitting with me doesn't have a degree or the group and the people, doesn't mean they don't know just as much as me. It's just another form of maybe learning or knowing or presence and healing. And then we're figuring that out together. I see that as one way of undoing, undoing this. I know everything point of view, which I kind of felt like I had to have when I came out of grad school. Yeah,Jenny (14:14):Yeah, totally. Yeah, I feel similar and I think often think in quotes. And so one of my favorite quotes is by Simone Devo, and she says, without a doubt, it is always more comfortable to endure blind bondage than to work for one's liberation. And so I am consistently asking, where is my blind bondage? Who are the people in my life that will show me where my blind bondage is? Who are the people that will hold me accountable to my own liberation? And for me as a therapist, I work primarily with white folks who grew up in fundamental Christianity. And over 10 years of doing that work, I think that a primary part of my work is radical agency(15:13):Because I think that particularly white bodies maintain privilege by abdicating our agency and by being compliant with the systems that give us power and give us privilege. And so I think for me, my ethic is how do I help clients come into contact with their radical agency? And so a big part of that that I think is important is consent. And so if someone is coming to work with me, it's part of my disclosure form, it's part of my intake to say, I don't think our mental health concerns or our somatic concerns exist in a bubble. They are deeply impacted by the systems we move through. And so while we'll be engaging your individual body, we're also going to be engaging the collective structures. And I've had people say, no, I don't want to do that work. And I say, great, there are other lovely therapists that will work with you and be a better fit. That's just not the type of therapy I do. That's not within my scope of practice to only focus on the individual, because for me, that's unethical.Danielle (16:23):Oh, that's cool. I like that, Jenny. I think that a lot. I was consulting recently, and we're just talking about this current moment, and I'll just say from my point of view that even in my family, I noticed when something had gone on locally, we have some organizing that we do and we had some warnings go out. And I noticed even in my own family, the heightened anxiety, the alert, and one of the things we had to do was we took turns driving around just making sure everybody's safe and everybody was safe. And I came down and at the point where people began to lower anxiety, and we're talking about just regular business owners, regular people out there, we're not even talking about immigrants, quote migrants. We're just talking about people out there that don't want to encounter force. You could feel the anxiety just lower now that we went the parking lot's clear, no one's here, we're safe. This isn't happening, not today. I'm not saying it won't happen here in our area of the country, but it's not happening today. And I realized in consultation later about clients and stuff that things are going to, but the clinician I was consulting with just said to me, she said to me, just for your family, she's like, that anxiety is warranted. That's real. You're supposed to feel anxious. There's no way you can take that away for those people and you shouldn't.(18:02):And so just kind of learning, reminding myself, when you go to grad school, when you study therapy and psychology, there's pathological, there's diagnoses, all these things, but then there's some things like we just can't take away. They're part of the experience. They need to be there. They're part of the warning. And there's a reason why when you get out and do something practical for a community, the anxiety lowers. And I think that just gave me a lot of insight, not just for my client, but for my family and for myself. And there's some calm, not because I'm anxious, but because, oh, I'm not crazy. I'm not just making this up. And so I do think that speaks to how the system is creating trauma and it is powerless. What can we do against the big bad authorities? And we can do things, we can connect, we can be with people, but at some level, that baseline of anxiety is going to be there because it's warranted. That's how I think of it.What do we do? Well, we sat at home, we watched sports. We went to Best Buy, and this is not every, we had some privilege. We bought an extra controller to play Mario World or whatever it was. I don't remember, but I was like, I'm not playing on that little controller. They wanted me to hold. I was like, I need a real controller. I'm old. I need to be able to feel it in my hands. Just silly stuff. Just didn't put pressure on the kids to do homework. Not a pressure to clean the house, just to just exist. Just be, yeah. What about you? What do you do when you encounter either anxiety from trauma like that or the systemic pressure maybe to even conform to whiteness or privilege in that moment?Jenny (20:12):I typically need to move my body in some way, whether that's to take my dog on a very long walk or whether that's just to roll around on a dance floor or maybe do a yoga practice. I become aware of how my body is holding that, and I think about how emotions are just energy in motion. And so if we don't give them motion and expression, it becomes like a battery pack in our nervous system. And so I can feel that if I haven't been able to move and to express whatever my body needs to express, and often I don't even know cognitively what my body needs to express, but I've grown in trust that my body knows, and I say, I think the sillier we look the better it usually feels. I just saw this lovely post the other day, a movement person did where they, we talk a lot about brainwashing, but we don't talk a lot about body washing, and we are so conditioned to only move our body in certain ways. And because our body is not different than our brain, I think that the more free we feel in our actual physical body to our own ability, the more that can actually create a little bit more mobility in how we see reality and how we engage with it.Danielle (21:44):So take that back to the beginning where you started talking about how when you have clients come in, you're like, yo, we're going to address this systemically and collectively. What do you do with folks when they have that kind of energy and you guys are working through it and it's like, oh, it's like maybe that's collective energy. What do you do? Yeah,Jenny (22:02):Yeah. I ask my clients probably annoying amount of times each session, what do you notice right now? And then I follow their body. So if their body says like, oh, I feel a lot of tension in my gut instead of alleviating that, I go, okay, great. Can you actually exaggerate that tension a little bit and see what happens? See if that tension wants to come out in a snarl or a growl, or maybe you want to curl up in a ball and I just follow whatever the impulses of their body are. Or if they say like, oh, I feel a lot in my shoulders. I'm like, great. Do you want to go push against a wall or push against the floor or punch a pillow and let your body actually get some movement into those spaces that you're sensing?Well, as I said, I'm very skeptical about individual work, even though I do it, I don't think is all that. I think it is both necessary and not that helpful for the collective(23:21):Because it is individual. And so I actually do think we need collective spaces of moving and expressing and being in our bodies. I think our ancestors knew this for before Christian supremacy and then white supremacy and then capitalistic supremacy eradicated how we've evolved to move in our and collectively. That being said, I do think that the more we become aware of how our body is constrained and how we've been socialized, especially I think for anybody, but for me, I'll speak to white bodies, we aren't always conscious. We take for granted whiteness and how it affects our bodies. So the first time I'm asking a white person, especially maybe a white woman to look pissed, that's going to be probably really scary because socially we are not actually allowed to be pissed. We're allowed to be dams, souls, and we're allowed to freak out, but we're not actually allowed to be strong and be powerful and be angry. And so I do believe that in that work of individual liberation and freedom, it actually helps us resist those roles and those performances of white womanhood that then perpetuate collective harm.Danielle (24:49):I can see how that shift would really impact the way one person both connects with their neighbor or a different person, even same race or same culture, and would impact not only how they relate and connect to that person, but also just how they might love.Jenny (25:10):Yeah, because I think it is dangerous. It is disproportionately dangerous to oppressed bodies when white women aren't holding our own anger because I think that there is a deferral to the police, to governing bodies to different authorities when a white woman is actually pissed, rather than saying like, Hey, you did this and it pissed me off, let's work it out here. Oftentimes that ends up actually getting policed to authorities that then disproportionately harm oppressed bodies. And so I think it is essential for white women to grow our capacity to bear. No, I actually am pissed and I can acknowledge that and engage that and be with it in myself.I do. I do actually. So I have been working on a book for the last six years in which I'm looking at the socialization of young white women in purity culture and this political moment of Invisible children, which was this documentary style film that manipulated an entire generation of young white women to get involved in missions or development. And so as part of my research, I interviewed many white women who grew up in purity culture and became missionaries. And there were some that maybe still had good relations with organizations such as invisible children and felt threatened or maybe pissed that I was inquiring into this. And so instead of engaging and talking about the emotions that were coming up, they went straight to interrogating my IRB and then went straight to is this research ethical? Even though I could tell they were really just angry and upset about what I was interrogating, and I would've much rather we could have that conversation than this quick sense of I'm going to go to the structures while I can maintain feeling like this demure pleasantness of white womanhood, even though I could feel the energy. And that's an example for me, and I have white privilege, and so there was still threat there, but it was not probably to the same degree that it could be if I didn't hold that same power and privilege that I do.Scared. I felt really scared and I had done everything ethically. I had hired my own IRB to oversee my research. I did their protocol and still I felt the wielding of power and the sense of I can move the system to act against you if I don't like what you're doing. And so it was really, really scary. And then I had to move my anxiety and my body and I had to shake because what I do often when I get scared and I had to let my body discharge that adrenaline and that cortisol, and then I was able to back to myself and respond and say, it sounds like you have some concerns, and being interviewed is totally optional so you don't have to do it. And then I never heard back from 'em, and so it was just helpful for me to get to move that through. Even in part of that process,Danielle (29:27):Jenny, is that energy still in you now or is it gong?Jenny (29:30):Oh yeah, totally. I can feel my body vibrating and even there's that fear of like, oh shit, what's going to happen if I talk about this? I can feel the silencingThe demand to be small and not to expose it because then I'm open to fill in the blank. And so I can feel the sense of how power wants to keep us from speaking truth to power and to those that wield it.Danielle (30:02):Man, I want to swear so bad, motherfucker. I'm not surprised. But I do think I continue to allow myself to be shocked. And I think the thing is, I know this can happen. I know it will happen. I think both you and I are writing on topics that are very interrogate this moment in a very particular way that's threatening. And so although I'm not surprised, I am allowing myself to continually be shocked, not I want to re-traumatize myself, but I don't want to lose the feeling of there might be somebody good out there, this might be well received. And also I want to maintain that feeling of like, man, I really love my friend. I believe in her. And I think allowing myself to kind of hold all those things kind of just allows me to wake up for the moment versus just numbing out to it. Man,So vicious. It's so vicious because you aren't taking their money, you aren't literally hurting them physically. You're not taking their power, and yet there's this full force. You've dedicated your life to this thing and they could take you out.Jenny (31:19):Yeah, and I think it's primarily because I am questioning white women's innocence and I think based on how race and gender work, a white woman's privilege and power comes from this presumed purity and innocence. And so if we start to disrupt that and go, actually, I'm human and I've done some shit and I've, I've caused harm and I will cause harm, and that's actually a really important part of me working out my humanity. Then I'm stepping out of the bounds of being protected under white patriarchy.Danielle (32:06):I feel like I learned, I feel like so much resonance with that. I've had many similar experiences, but one stands out where right after the election I talked with a friend of mine on the phone, and I don't remember if she is a white colleague from same grad school and said something like, oh, it's just a bummer. And we didn't really talk about it. And I was like, that's all you could say. I thought about that. And later I sent a really kind text saying, Hey, that really hurt my feelings. I don't know. It doesn't make sense why we haven't talked about it more. And then I didn't hear back. It just went silent. This is someone I'd known for seven years.(32:45):Then later I called and I was like, Hey, what's up? And they're like, I can't believe you would write that to me If I ever engage you again, I want to start here. Some other random place. I was just sat back and I was like, I'm not giving this any more energy at that time. I said that to myself and it was just like the complete collapse when I said, you hurt my feelings, the complete collapse. When I said, I don't understand this, can we talk about it? And then I went through this period this summer of just having this feeling. I don't want to be at odds with people. So I left this person a voicemail saying, Hey man, can we talk? I haven't heard back from them, but I feel like I did my part. But I'm just struck it even in down from the big view, like the 30,000 foot view or how that person wants to reign the system on you to even interpersonally, if I don't like what you said, I'm just going to remove my presence,Jenny (33:51):Which I think again, is so much of the epidemic of whiteness. And I think it then produces such a fragility that's like I don't actually know how to bear open conflict and disruption because I'm not practiced at it, and I just will escape every time someone calls me to accountability or says something I don't like. And we can't stay in that place of tension.Yeah. Well, I think one is that I feel those tendencies so much in my own body, and I do think that we have capacity to metabolize them. And so I literally might say something like, great, could you let your body get up and run around the room or run in place? Or maybe you stay seated but you let your legs and your arms kick. And they think that if we even just let ourselves express I want to fight, or if I want to flee or I want to get away from this and we let our body do what we need to do, we can then come back to ourselves and have fuller access to our capacity. And again, sometimes I do think there are relationships or communities or things that we do need to step away from. And sometimes if we've only ever learned to say yes, we might go through a process where we swing to the other side and we just cut everyone out and then we get to learn how to have discernment and how to enter into relationships thoughtfully and how to know who are those people we will be investing in probably for a long time.(35:43):And so it's not denying that those impulses are there, but it's letting our bodies metabolize them and work through them. And it makes me think of res, menkin talks about dirty pain versus clean pain, and I think dirty pain is just like, this hurts. I'm going to avoid it. And just disconnect and dissociate clean pain is like this hurts and I'm going to press into it and I'm going to see what it can teach me and how I can grow into a stronger, more mature person through this process.Danielle (36:16):Man, that sounds like some good work you could do with somebody. I think the thing about therapy, coming back to what you said at the beginning is I think we want a quick answer. We want, we want to go to a retreat, we want to show up at the gym. In my case, I go to the gym often. We want to go somewhere, we want to feel like we did it, we accomplished it. And often at the gym, I can hear my coaches are saying just little steps. Every week and above doing lots of weight, it's showing up as much as you can, being consistent. And I kind of hear that in a little bit of what you're saying. It's not like getting to the end right away. It's tracking your body and the sensations and showing up for yourself even in that way.Jenny (37:08):And I think even like that, I love that analogy. I often say relationships are like muscles. They're only as strong as the ruptures that they can handle. And stronger muscles have had more and more and more and more ruptures. We build muscle through tearing and rebuilding. And I think that that's the same with relationship too. But if we've never torn, then we're so afraid of what's going to happen. If there is a rupture,Danielle:I don't know that we're going to heal that, but someone recently said the system is collapsing. It really is. It's coming down on itself. And I think really it's going to come down to the work that you talked about at the beginning, however people are choosing to see it. But one way you talked about it was that monochromatic lens and adding a lens, adding a lens. And I do think the challenge for all of us, even to form something new, whether that means new government, I don't know what it means, but just even a new way of being together set the government aside. It means really forming, adding lenses to ourselves. Jenny, I hope you're coming back to talk to me again.It's okay. Where can they find your stuff? Tell me.Jenny (38:42):Yeah, so I'm on Instagram at indwell movement, and then my website is indwell movement.com. So find me at either of those places, email me, reach out, send a message, would love to connect.Danielle (38:59):Okay, cool. Well, that's a wrap on this episode. If you can share, download, subscribe, tune into what we're talking about. But more important, have a conversation with a friend, a colleague, a neighbor, challenge your therapist, challenge your family. Don't forget to keep talking. And at the end of the show notes are resources, just some resources. They aren't the end all, be all of resources, but I'm putting 'em in there because I want you to know it's important to do resourcing for ourselves. As always, thank you for joining us, and at the end of the podcast are notes and resources, and I encourage you to stay connected to those who are loving in your path and in your community. Stay tuned.  Crisis Resources:Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResource Contact Info What They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call Line Phone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ 24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach Team Emergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/ Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS) Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/ Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now” Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx 24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the Peninsulas Phone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-Resources Local crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap County Website: https://namikitsap.org/ Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResource Contact Info What They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988) Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/ Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line 1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resources Help for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line 877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/ Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis Lifeline Dial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resources Culturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

BioPhil Allen, Jr., PhD is a theologian and ethicist whose research and writings include the intersections of social structure, race, culture, and theology and ethics of justice. He has authored two books: Open Wounds: A Story of Racial Tragedy, Trauma, and Redemption and The Prophetic Lens: The Camera and Black Moral Agency From MLK to Darnella Frazier. He is an affiliate assistant professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a poet, and documentary filmmaker. Dr. Allen is also founder of the nonprofit Racial Solidarity Project based in Pasadena, CA. As a former Division 1 college basketball player, he has enjoyed opportunities as a guest chaplain for college and professional sports teams.Phil Allen Jr., PhDAffiliate Assistant Professor | Fuller Theological SeminaryPresident: Racial Solidarity Project (RSP)Philallenjr.com | openwoundsdoc.comInstagram: @philallenjrig | @the_rspThreads: @philallenjrigFacebook: Phil Allen, Jr.Substack: @philallenjrLinkedIn: @philallenjrWelcome to the Arise podcast, conversations in Reality centered on our same themes, faith, race, justice, gender in the church. So happy to welcome my buddy and a colleague, just a phenomenal human being. Dr. Phil Allen, Jr. He has a PhD. He's a theologian and an ethicist whose research and writings include intersections of social structure, race, culture, and theology, and the ethics of justice. He has also authored two books, open Wounds, A Story of Racial Tragedy, trauma and Redemption, and the Prophetic Lens, the Camera and the Black Moral Agency from MLK to Dan Darnell Frazier. He's an affiliate assistant professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a poet and a documentary filmmaker. Dr. Allen is also founder of the nonprofit Racial Solidarity Project based in Pasadena, California as a former division one college basketball player. Yes, he has enjoyed opportunities as a guest chaplain for college and professional sports. Hey, you're not going to be disappointed. You're going to find questions, curiosity ways to interact with the material here. Please just open up your mindset and your heart to what is shared today, and I encourage you to share and spread the word. Hey, Phil. Here we find ourselves back again talking about similar subjects.Danielle (00:18):Welcome to the Arise podcast, conversations in Reality centered on our same themes, faith, race, justice, gender in the church. So happy to welcome my buddy and a colleague, just a phenomenal human being. Dr. Phil Allen, Jr. He has a PhD. He's a theologian and an ethicist whose research and writings include intersections of social structure, race, culture, and theology, and the ethics of justice. He has also authored two books, open Wounds, A Story of Racial Tragedy, trauma and Redemption, and the Prophetic Lens, the Camera and the Black Moral Agency from MLK to Dan Darnell Frazier. He's an affiliate assistant professor at Fuller Theological Seminary, a poet and a documentary filmmaker. Dr. Allen is also founder of the nonprofit Racial Solidarity Project based in Pasadena, California as a former division one college basketball player. Yes, he has enjoyed opportunities as a guest chaplain for college and professional sports. Hey, you're not going to be disappointed. You're going to find questions, curiosity ways to interact with the material here. Please just open up your mindset and your heart to what is shared today, and I encourage you to share and spread the word. Hey, Phil. Here we find ourselves back again talking about similar subjects.Unfortunately. Well, how are you coming in today? How is your body? How's your mind? How are you coming in? Just first of all,Phil Allen Jr. (01:51):I am coming in probably in one of the best places, spaces in a long time. The last two days have been very, very encouraging and uplifting, having nothing to do with what's happening in the world. I turned 52, I told you I turned 52 yesterday. So whenever I see the happy birthdays and the messages, text messages, social media messages, literally it just lifts me up. But in that, I also had two people share something that I preached. Oh, 10 years ago, what? And one other person, it was 17 years ago, something I taught that came full circle. One person used it in a message for a group of people, and the other person was just saying, 10 years ago, about 10 years ago, you preached a message that was, it impacted me seriously. He didn't know who I was, and he the dots, and he realized, oh, that's the guy that preached when we went to that. And so that, to me, it was so encouraging to hear thoseBecause you never know where your messages land, how impactful they are, and for people to bring that up. That just had me light. Then I did 20 miles, so physically 20I feel great after that. I'm not sore. I'm not tired. I could go run right now, another 10, but I'm not. Okay. Okay, good. Today is rest day good? Yes, I did a crim community resiliency model present workshop.I dunno if you're familiar with, are you familiar with crim?Crim was developed by Trauma Resource Institute here in Claremont, California by Elaine Miller Carra, and they go around the world. They have trainees and people around the world that go into places that just experienced traumatic eventsThe tsunami in Indonesia to school shootings around the country. So here, obviously we had the fires from January, and so we did a workshop to help. What it is is helping people develop the skills, practical skills. There are six skills to regulate the nervous systems, even in the moments. I was certified in 2020 to do that, and so I did a co-led presentation. It was great, very well received. I had fun doing it. So empowering to give people these skills. I use them every day, resourcing, just like when you asked me, how are you in your body? So for a moment, I have to track, I have to notice what's going on with my body. That's the firstSo we teach people those skills and it is just the last few days, Monday, Tuesday, and today already. I just feel light and it's no coincidence I didn't watch the news at all yesterday.Okay. Even on social media, there's no coincidence. I feel light not having engaged those things. So I feel good coming in this morning.Danielle (05:32):Okay, I like that. Well, I know I texted you, I texted you a couple months ago. I was like, let's record a podcast. And then as you alluded to, the world's kept moving at a rapid pace and we connected. And I've been doing a lot of thinking for a long time, and I know you and I have had conversations about what does it look like to stay in our bodies, be in our bodies in this time, and I've been thinking about it, how does that form our reality? And as you and I have talked about faith, I guess I'm coming back to that for you, for how you think about faith and how it informs your reality, how you're in reality, how you're grounding yourself, especially as you alluded to. We do know we can't be involved every second with what's happening, but we do know that things are happening. So yeah, just curious, just open up the conversation like that.Phil Allen Jr. (06:28):Yeah, I think I'm going to go back to your first question. I think your first question you asked me sets the tone for everything. And I actually answered this similarly to someone yesterday when you said, how are you in your body? And for me, that's the first I've learned, and a lot of it has to do with community resiliency model that I just talked about, to pay attention to what's going on in my body. That tells me a lot. That tells me if I'm good, I can't fake it. You can fake how you feel. You can fake and perform what you think, but you can't with the sensations and the response of your body to different circumstances, that's going to be as real, as tangible. So I pay attention first to that. That tells me how much I'm going to engage a subject matter. It tells me how much I want to stay in that space, whether it's the news, whether it's conversation with someone. My body tells me a lot now, and I don't separate that from my faith. We can go through biblical narrative and we can see where things that are going on physically with someone is addressed or is at least acknowledged. It is just not in the forefront emphasized. So we don't think that paying attention to what's going on in your body matters,When you have that dualistic approach to faith where the soul is all that matters. Your body is just this flesh thing. No, God created all of it. Therefore, all of it's valuable and we need to pay attention to all of it. So that's the first place I start. And then in terms of faith, I'm a realist. I'm a Christian realist, so I put things in perspective. The love ethic of Jesus is an ideal. Scripture is an ideal. It's telling us when you look at Christ, Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is also called the son of man. And from my understanding and my learnings, son of man refers to the human one, the ideal human one, right? He is divinity, but he's deity, but he's also a human, and he's the human that we look to for the ideal way to live. And so this perfect ideal of love, the love ethic of Jesus, I believe it's unattainable on this side of heaven. I think we should always strive to love our enemies. But how many people actually love their enemies? Bless them. I saw what Eric, I think his name, first name is Erica Kirk forgave theOkay? I'm not here to judge whether that's real or if she felt obligated because I know some Christians, they wrestle because they feel obligated to forgive almost immediately. I don't feel that obligation if my body is not in a place where I can just say, I forgive you. I need to get to a place where I can forgive. But let's just say it's very real. She is. I forgive this young man. How many people can do that? We admire it. How many Christians will just say, I forgive, genuinely say, I forgive the person who killed my children's father. So it's not that it can't be done, but sustained. There are few people who could do what in terms of relative to how many people in the world, what Mother Teresa did. There are few people who can do that. There are few people who could do what Martin Luther King did who could practice non-violence, risk, jail and life and limb for an extended period of time. So I'm not saying it can't be done, but sustained by many or the most of us. I just don't believe that's realistic. I believe it's always something we aspire to. And we're always challenged throughout life to live up to that ideal. But we're going to fall short probably more often than we want to admit.(11:12):So I don't try to put the pressure on myself to be this perfect Christian. I try to understand where I am in my maturity in this particular area. There's some things I can do better than others, and then I go from there. So I look at what's happening in the world through that lens. How would I really respond? There are people I don't want to deal with. They are toxic and harmful to me because here's the other part, there's also wisdom. That's faith too.Holy Spirit, when the Holy Spirit comes, the Holy Spirit shall come upon you, shall lead you in. I'm paraphrasing a bit, but the Holy Spirit shall lead you. No, the spirit of wisdom is what I'm trying to get to in John. This Holy Spirit is called the spirit of wisdom. Holy Spirit is going to lead you into all truth, but it's also called the spirit of wisdom.Is faith too. And it is there no one way of doing things.It's where I feel the most settled, even if I don't want to do something.I went through a divorce separated 10 years ago, divorce finalized a couple of years later. And I wanted so badly to share my story through people at my former church, family, friends. I wanted to tell, let me tell what happened. I never had peace about that in my body. My body never felt settled.Settled, okay.Because I knew I was doing it from a place of wanting to get vindication, maybe revenge. It wasn't just as innocent as, let me tell my side of the story, if I'm honest.It was, I'm going to throw you under the bus.But in that moment, I didn't because I didn't feel settled in my spirit. People say settled in my spirit. Really, it is also my body that I should do that wisdom says, let God handle it. Let God bring it to the surface. In due time, people will know who need to know. You don't have to take revenge. When they go low, you go high. In that moment, that's what I felt at peace to do. And I don't regret it to this day. I don't regret it. I'm glad I didn't because it would just been even more messy.I have conversations with my grandmother who's no longer with us, or I recall conversations we had. So when I was young, and I tell people unapologetically, I'm a mama's boy and a grandmama's boy. Women played a significant role raising me. So I'm close to mom, grandma, grandmothers, aunts, cousins, my sisters, and I'm the oldest of all my siblings, but women. So my grandmother, rather than going out to parties a lot, I would prefer to go to her house. I lived in high school with one grandmother, but sometimes I would go to my other grandmother's house and just sit and she would have a glass of wine, and we would just talk for hours. And she would tell me stories When she was young,Would ask her questions. I miss, and I loved those times. An external resource, if this can be an external no longer here, but she's a person. She was a real person. I think about what if I'm having a conversation with her, and she would never really be impulsive with me. She would just pause and just think, well, and I know she's going to drop some wisdom, right?So that's one of my sources. My grandmother, both of them to a degree, but my mom's mom for sure is I would say her feet. So I'd have these conversations. I still don't want to embarrass them. I don't want to make them look bad. I want them to be proud of me toDay. So that helps me make decisions. It helps me a lot of times on how I respond in the same way we believe that God is ever present and omniscient and knowing what we're doing and what we're thinking and feeling and watching, not watching in a surveillance type of way, but watching over us like a parent. If we believe that in those moments, I pretend because I don't know, but I pretend that my grandmother is, she's in heaven and she's watching over all right now, and I'm not offering a theological position that when they die and go to heaven, they're still present with us omnipresent. Now, I'm not saying any of that, just in my mind. I tell myself, grandma could be watching me. What will grandma do? Type of thing. So that becomes an external resource for me as well as mentors that I've had in my life. Even if I can't get in touch with them, I would recall conversations we've had, and they're still alive. I recall conversations we've had and how would they guide me in this? And so I remember their words. I remember more than I even realized.Danielle (17:59):And that feels so lovely and so profound that those roots, those, I want to say ancestors, but family, family connections, that they're resourcing us before they even know they're resourcing us.So they're not unfamiliar with suffering and pain and love and joy. So they may not know exactly what we're going through in this moment, 2025, but they do know what it is to suffer. They do know what it is to walk through life. It's heavy sometimes.Phil Allen Jr. (18:43):Yes, yes, yes. They prepared me and my siblings well, and my mom is the encourager. My mom is the person that just says it's going to be okay. It's going to work out. And sometimes I don't want to hear that, but my grandparents would say a little bit more, they were more sagacious in their words, and they would share that wisdom from their life, 80 plus years. And even with my mom, sometimes I'll look back and be like, she was right. I knew she was right. I knew she was right because she'd been through so much and it is going to be okay. It's going to be okay. It always is. And so I don't take that lightly either.Danielle (19:40):When you come to this current moment with your ancestors, your faith, those kinds of things with you, how then do you form a picture of where we are at, maybe as a faith, and I'm speaking specifically to the United States, and you might speak more specifically to your own cultural context. I know for Latino, for Latinx folks, there was some belief that was fairly strong, especially among immigrant men. I would say that to vote for particular party could mean hope and access to power. And so now there's a backtrack of grappling with this has actually meant pain and hate and dissolve of my family. And so what did that mean for my faith? So I think we're having a different experience, but I'm wondering from your experience, how then are you forming a picture of today?Phil Allen Jr. (20:47):I knew where we were headed. Nothing surprises me because my faith teaches me to look at core underlying causes, root causes in an individual. When we talk about character, what are the patterns of this person that's going to tell us a lot about who this person is, they're in leadership, where they're going to lead us, what are the patterns of a particular group, the patterns that a lot of people don't pay attention to or are unaware of? What are those patterns? And even then, you may have to take a genealogical approach, historical approach, and track those patterns going back generations and coming to the current time to tell us where we'reAnd then do the same thing broadly with the United States. And if you pay attention to patterns, I'm a patterns person. If you pay attention to patterns, it'll tell you where you're going. It'll tell you where you're headed. So my faith has taught me to pay attention to even the scripture that says from the heart, the mouth speaks. So if I want to know a person, I just pay attention to what they're saying. I'm just going to listen. And if I listen intently, carefully, what they've said over time tells me how they will lead us, tells me how they will respond. It tells me everything about their ethics, their morality. It tells me what I need to know. If I pay attention, nothing surprises me where we are, the term MAGA is not just a campaign slogan, it's a vision statement. Make America great again. Each of these words, carry weight again, tells me, and it's not even a vision statement, it's nostalgic. It's not creative. It's not taking us into a new future with a new, something new and fresh. It is looking backwards. Again, let's take what we did. It might look a little differently. Let's take what we did and we're going to bring that to 2025. Great. What is great? That's a relative statement. That's a relative word.(23:36):I always ask people, give me one decade. In the last 400 plus years since Europeans encountered, 500 years since Europeans encountered indigenous people, give me one decade of greatness, moral greatness. Not just economic or militarily, but moral greatness where the society was just equitable, fair and loving. I can't find one.Because the first 127 years with interaction with indigenous people was massacre violence, conquest of land, beginning with a narrative that said that they were savages. Then you got 246 years of slavery,Years of reconstruction. And from 1877 to 19 68, 91 years of Jim Crow. So you can't start until you get to 1970.And then you got mass incarceration, the prison industrial complex and racial profiling. So for black folks, especially seventies, and you had the crack of it, the war on drugs was really a war on the communities because it wasn't the same response of the opioid addiction just a few years ago in the suburbs, in the white suburbs, it was a war, whereas this was called a health crisis. So people were in prison, it was violence industry. So now we're in 1990s, and we still can start talking about police brutality, excessive force. And since 1989, you, it's been revealed 50 plus percent of exonerations are African-Americans. So that means throughout the seventies, eighties, and nineties, people who have been put in prison, who unjustly. And that affects an entire community that affects families. And you got school shootings starting with Columbine and mass shootings. So tell me one decade of America greatness.So if I pay attention to the patterns, I should not be surprised with where we are. Make America great. Again, that's a vision statement, but it's nostalgic. It's not innovative. It's taking us back to a time when it was great for people, certain people, and also it was telegraphed. These ice raids were telegraphed.2015, the campaign started with they're sending their rapists and their murder. So the narrative began to create a threat out of brown bodies. From the beginning, he told us,Yeah, right. So project 2025, if you actually paid attention to it, said exactly what they were wanting to do. Nothing surprises me. Go back to the response to Obama as president first, black president, white supremacist group, hate groups rose and still cause more violence than any other group in the country. But they have an ally in the office. So nothing surprises me. My faith tells me, pay attention to the underlying, pay attention to the root causes. Pay attention to the patterns of what people ignore and what they don't pay attention to. And it'll tell you where you're headed. So nothing surprises me,Danielle (27:39):Phil, you'll know this better than me, but Matthew five, that's the beatitudes, right? And I think that's where Jesus hits on this, right? He's like, you said this and I'm saying this. He's saying, pay attention to what's underneath the surface. Don't just say you love someone. What will you do for them? What will you do for your enemy? What will you do for your neighbor? And the reward is opposite. So a lot of times I've been talking with friends and I'm like, it's almost, I love Marvel movies. And you know how they time travel to try to get all the reality stones back and endgame? IA lot of movies. Okay, well, they time travel.Following you. Yeah. They time travel. And I feel like we're in an alternate time, like an alternate, alternate time zone where Jesus is back, he's facing temptations with Satan. And instead of saying no, he's like, bring it on. Give me the world. And we're living in an alternate space where faith, where we're seeing a faith played out with the name of Jesus, but the Jesus being worshiped is this person that would've said yes to the devil that would've said, yes, give me all the kingdoms of the world. Let rule everything. Yes, I'm going to jump. I know you're going to catch me. I can be reckless with my power and my resources. That's what I feel like all the bread I want. Of course I'm hungry. I'm going to take it all for myself. I feel like we're living in that era. It just feels like there's this timeline where this is the Jesus that's being worshiped. Jesus.That's how I feel. And so it's hard for me, and it's good for me to hear you talk about body. It's hard for me to then mix that reality. Because when I talk to someone, I'm like, man, I love Jesus. I love the faith you're talking about. And when I'm out there, I feel such bristle, such bristle and such angst in my body, anxiety like fear when I hear the name of Jesus, that Jesus, does that make sense?Phil Allen Jr. (30:05):Yes. Yeah. And that's so good. And I would you make me think about white Jesus?Like the aesthetics of Jesus. And that was intentional. And so my question for you real quick, how do you feel? What do you sense happening in your body when you see a brown Jesus, when you see an unattractive Palestinian, maybe even Moroccan Ethiopian looking, Jesus, brown skin, darker skin, any shade of brown to depict what Jesus, let's say, someone trying to depict what Jesus might've looked like. I've seen some images that said Jesus would've looked like this. And I don't know if that's true or not, but he was brown. Very different than the European. Jesus with blue eyes, brought blonde hair. What do you sense in, have you ever seen a picture, an image like that? And what do you remember about your response, your bodily response to that?Danielle (31:14):Well, it makes me feel like crying, just to hear you talk about it. I feel relief. I think I feel like I could settle. I would be calm. Some sort of deep resonance. It's interesting you say, I lived in Morocco for two years with my husband, and he's Mexican. Mexican, born there Mexican. And everybody thought he was Moroccan or Egyptian or they were like, who are you? And then they would find out he was Mexican. And they're like, oh man, we're brothers. That's literally an Arabic. They was like, we're brothers. We're brothers. Like, oh yeah, that's the feeling I have. We would be welcomed in.Phil Allen Jr. (32:00):Wow. I asked that question because whenever I've taught, I used teach in my discipleship group a class before they were put into small mentoring groups. I'd have a six, seven week class that I taught on just foundational doctrine and stuff like that. And when I talked about the doctrine of get into Christology, I would present a black Jesus or a brown Jesus, Palestinian Jesus. And you could feel the tension in the room. And usually somebody would push back speaking on behalf of most of the people in the room would push back. And I would just engage in conversation.(32:52):And usually after I would speak to them about and get them to understand some things, then they would start to settle. When I would get them to think about when was the white Jesus, when was Jesus presented as white and by whom and why? And why would Jesus look this way? Everybody else in that era, that time and that spade, that region would've looked very differently. Why do you think this is okay? And then someone would inevitably say, well, his race doesn't matter. And I heard a professor of mine say it mattered enough to change it. Absolutely. Why not be historically accurate? And that was when the light switch came on for many of them. But initially they were disoriented. They were not settled in their bodies. And that to me tells a lot about that's that alternative. Jesus, the one who would've jumped, the one who would've saved himself, the one who would've fallen into the temptation. I would say that that's the white Jesus, that what we call Christian, lowercase c Christian nationalism or even American conservative evangelicalism, which has also been rooted in white supremacy historically. That's the Jesus that's being worshiped. I've said all along, we worship different gods.(34:30):We perceive Jesus very differently. That's why the debates with people who are far left, right or conservative, the debates are pointless because we worship different gods. We're not talking about the same Jesus. So I think your illustration is dead on. I'm seeing a movie already in my head.Danielle (34:58):I have tried to think, how can I have a picture of our world having been raised by one part of my family that's extremely conservative. And then the other part not how do I find a picture of what's happening, maybe even inside of me, like the invitation to the alternate reality, which we're talking about to what's comfortable, to what's the common narrative and also the reality of like, oh, wait, that's not how it worked for all of my family. It was struggle. It was like, what? So I think, but I do think that our faith, like you said, invites us to wrestle with that. Jesus asks questions all the time.Phil Allen Jr. (35:46):Yes, I am learning more and more to be comfortable setting a table rather than trying to figure out whose table I go to, whether it's in the family, friends, whomever. I'm comfortable setting a table that I believe is invitational, a table of grace as well as standards. I mean, I don't believe in just anything goes either. I'm not swinging a pendulum all the way to the other side, but I do believe it's a table of grace and truly, truly, rather than trying to make people believe and live out that faith the way I think they should, inviting them to a space where hopefully they can meet with God and let God do that work, whatever it is that they need to do. But I'm comfortable creating a table and saying, Hey, I'm going to be at this table that's toxic. That table over there is toxic. That table over there is unhealthy. I'm going to be at this table.Danielle (37:05):How practically do you see that working out? What does that look like in your everyday life or maybe in the discipleship settings you're in? How does that look?Phil Allen Jr. (37:16):I'm very careful in the company I keep. I'm very careful in who I give my time to. You might get me one time, you're not going to get me twice if there's toxicity and ignorance. And so for example, I'm in the coffee shop all the time. I rotate, but I have my favorites and I meet people all the time who want to have coffee. And I'm able to just yesterday three hours with someone and I'm able to put my pastoral hat on and just sit and be present with people. That's me creating a table. Had that conversation gone differently, I would say it certainly would not have lasted three hours. And I'm not making space and giving energy to them anymore because I know what they're bringing to do is toxic for me. It's unhealthy for me. Now, if we turned around and we had some conversations and can get on the same page, again, I'm not saying you have to agree with me on everything, but I'm also talking about tone. I'm talking about the energy, the spirit that person carries. I'm talking about their end goal. That's me giving an example. That's an example of me setting a table. The sacred spaces that I create, I'm willing to invite you in. And if we can maintain that peace and that joy, and it can be life-giving, and again, we don't even have to agree and we don't have to be in the same faith.(39:03):I have conversations all the time, people of other faiths or non-faith, and it's been life-giving for me, incredibly life-giving for me, for both of us I think. But I won't do that for, I've also had a couple of times when the person was far right, or in my dms on social media, someone appears to want to have a civil conversation, but really it was a bait. It was debate me into debate. And then next thing you know, insults and I block. And so I block because I'm not giving you space my space anymore. I'm not giving you access to do that to me anymore. So for me, it's creating a table is all the spaces I occupy that are mine, social media spaces, platform, a coffee shop. Where am I attend church,Right now I don't. And my church is in that coffee shop When I have those, when Jesus says with two or more gathered, there I am in the midst. I take that very seriously.When we gather, when me and someone or three of us are sitting and talking, and I'm trusting that God is present, God is in the space between us and it is been life-giving for us. So all that to say, wherever my body is, wherever I'm present, the table is present, the metaphorical table is there, and I'm careful about who I invite into that space because it's sacred for me. My health is at stake,Time and energy is at stake. And so that's how I've been living my life in the last five years or so is again, I don't even accept every invitation to preach anymore because I have to ask myself, I have have to check in my body.Right? No, I don't think this is what I'm supposed to do. And then there's sometimes I'm like, yeah, I want to preach there. I like that space. I trust them. And so that's me sharing a table. I'm going to their location, but I also bring in my table and I'm asking them to join me at the table.Danielle (41:46):I love that you check in with your body. I was even just about to ask you that. What do you notice in your body when you're setting up that table? Phil? What would you recommend? Someone's listening, they're like, these guys are crazy. I've never checked in my body once in my life. Can you share how you started doing that or what it was just at the beginning?Phil Allen Jr. (42:13):So community resiliency model, the first thing we teach is tracking,Noticing and paying attention to the sensations that's going on in your body,They're pleasant or unpleasant or neutral. And for me, one of the things I noticed long before I ever got connected to this was when something didn't feel right for me, I could sometimes feel a knot in my stomach. My heart rate would start increasing, and that's not always bad. So I had to wait. I had to learn to wait and see what that meant. Sometimes it just means nervousness, excitement, but I know God is calling me to it. So I had to wait to make sure it was that. Or was it like, I'm not supposed to do this thing.So we use this term called body literacy, learning to read, paying attention to what's happening in the body. And that could mean sometimes palms get sweaty, your body temperature rises and muscles get tight. Maybe there's some twitching, right? All these little things that we just ignore, our bodies are telling us something. And I don't disconnect that from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit knowing how to reach us, how to speak, not just a word of revelation, but in our bodies. And once I learned that, I trusted that God was in that. So I learned years ago when I was supposed to say something publicly, if I'm in a public space, I knew when I was supposed to say something. It took me a couple of years and I figured it out. And this is before ever learning, tracking and all this stuff.My heart would start racing and it would not stop. And it'd be the sense of urgency, that thing that thought you have, you have to say it now.I'm an introvert. I speak for a living. I present, but I don't like to say anything unless I have to. And I learned I could sit through something and be calm and comfortable and not have to say a word. But then I also learned that there were times when I'm supposed to say something here and I started listening to that. So paying attention to those sensations, those things that we ignore, that's happening in our bodies because our nervous system is activated for some reason.Danielle (44:57):I love to hear you say it. And also it's one of the things I think we naturally want to turn off when we're in a high trauma environment or come from a high trauma background. Or maybe you don't know what to do with the sensations, right?Can you just say a couple things about what moved you over that hump? How did you step into that despite maybe even any kind of, I don't know, reservations or just difficultiesTracking your body?Phil Allen Jr. (45:33):Getting language for what I was already doing, because with crim, one of the things that was revelatory for me was I was like, wait a minute. I already do a lot of these things. So for instance, touch and feel can settle out. Nervous systems, surfaces, you can put your hand, I have my hand on my armrest. It's smooth. If I'm nervous about something, I can literally just rub this smooth surface. It feels really good, and it can settle my nervous system, right? A sip of water, a drink of water can settle your nervous system. These are not just imaginations. This is literally how the body responds. You know this. So when they gave me language for things I had already been doing, so for instance, resourcing. And you had asked me earlier, and I mentioned my grandmother, if you paid attention to my face, I probably had a smile on my face talking about her.Because that resource, it brings up sensations in my body that are pleasant.My heart rate slows down. I could feel the warmth in my cheeks from smiling. So that's something that I tap into. And that's one of the ways that you can understand tracking when you think about a person, place, or thing that is pleasant, and then pay attention to what's going on in your body. And it might be neutral because it takes a while to be able to learn how to identify these things. And when I started doing that and I realized, wait a minute, my body, I feel settled. I feel at peace when I do this or do that. And that's when I said, okay, there's science behind this. And so that's when five years ago is when I started really like, I'm going to continue to do this and share this and practice this. I use it in my nonprofit racial solidarity project because this is how we stay engaged in the conversation about race. We get triggered, we get activated. A nervous system says threat. This person is threat, or this idea is a threat, especially when it disorients what we've been taught all our lives. And we get defensive, we get impulsive, and we argue and then we out.(48:18):So I use this as part of mentoring people to stay engaged by giving them the skills to regulate their nervous system when they're in those conversations, or if they're watching the news and they don't like what they see, they want to turn the news or they want to just shut it off. Some people hear the word critical race theory and it's already triggering for them,Absolutely. And what do you do? You check out, you disengage. You get defensive. Well, that's not necessarily how they feel. It's what they're sensing in their body. Their nervous system is triggered. So if they had the skills to settle that regulate their nervous system, they could probably stay engaged enough to listen to what's actually being said. It might actually come to, oh, I didn't realize that.Danielle (49:18):It's so good to hear you talk about it though. It's so encouraging. It's like, oh man. Being in our bodies, I think is one way. We know our faith more, and I actually think it's one way we can start to step in and cross and understand one another. But I think if we're not in our bodies, I think if we maintain some sort of rigidity or separation that it's going to be even harder for us to come together.Phil Allen Jr. (49:51):I'm crazy a little bit, but I ran running, taught me how to breathe. No other practice in my faith taught me how to breathe. And I don't mean in a meditative kind of way, religious kind of way. I mean just literally breathing properly.That's healthy.Danielle (50:13):It is healthy. Breathing is great. Yeah.Phil Allen Jr. (50:16):I want to be actually alive. But running forces you to have to pay attention to your body breathing. What type of pain is this in my knee? Is this the type of pain that says stop running? Or is this the type of pain that says this is minor and it's probably going to go away within the next half a mile?Right. Which then teaches us lessons in life. This pain, this emotional pain that I'm feeling, does it say, stop doing the thing that I'm doing, or is this something I have to go through because God is trying to reveal something to me?Running has taught me that. That's why running is a spiritual discipline for me. The spiritual discipline I didn't know I needed.Danielle (51:07):Yep. You're going to have to, yeah, keep going. Keep going.Phil Allen Jr. (51:10):Sorry. I was going to say, it taught me how to pay attention to my body, from my feet to my breathing. It taught me to pay attention to my body. When I dealt with AFib last year is because I pay attention to my body. When my heart wasn't beating the right way, it was like something ain't right. So I didn't try to push through it like I would have 10, 15, 20 years ago, paying attention to my body, said, stop. Go to urgent care. Next thing you know, I'm in an emergency room. I didn't know that with all this stuff attached to me. Next thing you know, I got these diagnoses. Next thing you know, I'm on medication. And fortunately the medication has everything stabilized. I still have some episodes of arrhythmia. I don't know if it's ever going to go away. Hopefully I can get off of these medications. I feel great. Matter of fact, I didn't take my medication this morning. I got to take 'em when we get done, brother. So all that to say, man, paying attention to what's happening in my body has helped me to deal with this current reality. It's helped me to stay grounded, helped me to make wise decisions. I trust that God, that though what I'm reading in my body, that the spirit of God is in that,(52:46):Is knowing how to speak to me, knowing what I'm going to pay attention to, what I'm going to respond to. Oh, that's how you read that. You're going to respond to that. Okay. That I'm going to urge you and prompt you through these bodily sensations, if you will.Danielle (53:10):Yeah. I don't really have a lot to say to answer that. It's just really beautiful and gorgeous. And also, please take your medicine. How can people reach you? How can they find out more about your work? How can they read what you're writing and what you're thinking? Where can they find you?Phil Allen Jr. (53:33):So on social media, everything is Phil Allen Jr. So whether that's Instagram. Instagram is actually Phil Allen Jr. PhD.It. LinkedIn and Facebook. Phil Allen Jr. On Facebook, there's a regular page and there's an author page. I don't really use the author page. I'm trying to figure out how to delete that. But the regular page, Phil Allen, Jr. Threads, Phil Allen Jr. I don't do X, but LinkedIn, Phil Allen Jr. My book Open Wounds. You can either go to your local bookstore, I want to support local bookstores. You can ask them if they have it, open Wounds, the Story of Racial Trauma, racial Tragedy, trauma and Redemption. And my other book, the Prophetic Lens, the Camera and Black Moral Agency from MLK to Darnella Frazier. You can find those books on Amazon, or you can go to your local bookstore and ask them to order it for you because it supports your local bookstore. Or you can go directly to fortress press.com and order it. It goes directly. You're supporting the publisher that publish my books, which helps, which actually helps me most. But those are three ways you can get those books. And then hopefully in the next year or so, I have three book projects. I'm kind of in different stages of right now that I'm working on, and hopefully one comes out in the next year.Yeah. Year and a half. We'll see.Danielle (55:21):That's exciting. Well, Phil, thank you so much. I'm going to stop recording. As always, thank you for joining us and at the end of the podcast, our notes and resources, and I encourage you to stay connected to those who are loving in your path and in your community. Stay tuned.Kitsap County & Washington State Crisis and Mental Health ResourcesIf you or someone else is in immediate danger, please call 911.This resource list provides crisis and mental health contacts for Kitsap County and across Washington State.Kitsap County / Local ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They OfferSalish Regional Crisis Line / Kitsap Mental Health 24/7 Crisis Call LinePhone: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/24/7 emotional support for suicide or mental health crises; mobile crisis outreach; connection to services.KMHS Youth Mobile Crisis Outreach TeamEmergencies via Salish Crisis Line: 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://sync.salishbehavioralhealth.org/youth-mobile-crisis-outreach-team/Crisis outreach for minors and youth experiencing behavioral health emergencies.Kitsap Mental Health Services (KMHS)Main: 360‑373‑5031; Toll‑free: 888‑816‑0488; TDD: 360‑478‑2715Website: https://www.kitsapmentalhealth.org/crisis-24-7-services/Outpatient, inpatient, crisis triage, substance use treatment, stabilization, behavioral health services.Kitsap County Suicide Prevention / “Need Help Now”Call the Salish Regional Crisis Line at 1‑888‑910‑0416Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/Suicide-Prevention-Website.aspx24/7/365 emotional support; connects people to resources; suicide prevention assistance.Crisis Clinic of the PeninsulasPhone: 360‑479‑3033 or 1‑800‑843‑4793Website: https://www.bainbridgewa.gov/607/Mental-Health-ResourcesLocal crisis intervention services, referrals, and emotional support.NAMI Kitsap CountyWebsite: https://namikitsap.org/Peer support groups, education, and resources for individuals and families affected by mental illness.Statewide & National Crisis ResourcesResourceContact InfoWhat They Offer988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (WA‑988)Call or text 988; Website: https://wa988.org/Free, 24/7 support for suicidal thoughts, emotional distress, relationship problems, and substance concerns.Washington Recovery Help Line1‑866‑789‑1511Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesHelp for mental health, substance use, and problem gambling; 24/7 statewide support.WA Warm Line877‑500‑9276Website: https://www.crisisconnections.org/wa-warm-line/Peer-support line for emotional or mental health distress; support outside of crisis moments.Native & Strong Crisis LifelineDial 988 then press 4Website: https://doh.wa.gov/you-and-your-family/injury-and-violence-prevention/suicide-prevention/hotline-text-and-chat-resourcesCulturally relevant crisis counseling by Indigenous counselors.Additional Helpful Tools & Tips• Behavioral Health Services Access: Request assessments and access to outpatient, residential, or inpatient care through the Salish Behavioral Health Organization. Website: https://www.kitsap.gov/hs/Pages/SBHO-Get-Behaviroal-Health-Services.aspx• Deaf / Hard of Hearing: Use your preferred relay service (for example dial 711 then the appropriate number) to access crisis services.• Warning Signs & Risk Factors: If someone is talking about harming themselves, giving away possessions, expressing hopelessness, or showing extreme behavior changes, contact crisis resources immediately.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that. Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

In this episode of the Navigating Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion's New Reality mini-series, we're talking about something every leader needs to be aware of: the profound impact of collective trauma and grief on your workforce. Host Rhodes Perry shares how the current climate amplifies fear and anxiety, disrupting the very fabric of trust and psychological safety in the workplace. This episode provides actionable, trauma-informed strategies to support your employees. You'll learn how to: Provide psychological safety first aid. Acknowledge and validate employees' grief. Model collective care by giving support and requesting it. By implementing these best practices, you can help your team cope with the ongoing challenges and build an enduring culture of creativity, connection, and belonging. Don't ignore the hidden impacts on your workforce—listen now to learn how to lead with empathy and clarity.     Key Takeaways & Timestamps [2:00] Defining collective trauma and its impact on the workforce. [4:30] Best practices for bolstering psychological safety. [7:00] How to practice collective care and cope with trauma. [9:45] Best practices for acknowledging and validating employee grief. [12:15] Practices to avoid when addressing collective trauma.'     Grow the Belonging Movement!

This week, we're revisiting Thomas' conversation with Esther Perel, a renowned psychotherapist, NYT bestselling author, and host of the podcast “Where Should We Begin?” They're also joined by her husband, Jack Saul, an artist, author, and psychologist. It's a deep discussion on working with trauma survivors, the healing power of creativity, and addressing the impacts of intergenerational trauma in therapy.Esther defines the “erotic” as a feeling of aliveness and vibrancy that transcends the context of romance. She shares how embracing this fundamental part of our humanity helps us survive traumatic circumstances and release the constriction and expectation of harm that often accompanies trauma. This is a powerful conversation that highlights how individual healing is deeply intertwined with collective healing, moving our understanding of therapeutic experiences beyond the isolated office into a shared space of transformation. It's one of our favorite conversations that we aired in the early days of Point of Relation, and we're excited to share it with you.✨ Click here to watch the video version of this episode on YouTube:

Today, we're sharing an excerpt from Thomas' conversation with acclaimed travel writer, author, and speaker Pico Iyer at the upcoming Collective Trauma Summit. Pico's extensive travels and journeys into the realms of Buddhism and meditation have deeply inspired and informed his creative process. They also brought him into close contact with another artist and meditation practitioner, the legendary musician Leonard Cohen. In this snippet from his Summit talk, Pico shares his experience witnessing Cohen's dedicated Zen practice and how Cohen later brought this sacred, surrendered quality from his meditation practice into his concert performances, transforming them into communal, sacred experiences. Within this experience, there are profound lessons about accepting impermanence and surrendering to something beyond your individual self.If you're moved by this conversation and want to hear the full talk, sign up at the link below, and we'll notify you as soon as details are announced for the 2025 Collective Trauma Summit, taking place online this fall.https://pointofrelationpodcast.com/#email-signup ✨ Click here to watch the video version of this episode on YouTube:

We chat this week about someone standing by my trash can at night, a dead animal by the same trashcan, cows being introverts, a calf stolen, kids doing cool things and we share this article about how to clean your space in the time of when you're not sure what to do: Space Clearing in the Age of Fascism: How to Protect Your Home & Body from Collective Trauma. | elephant journal We talk about how pointing removes your power.  Acid Youth you tube: !Sex Appeal! Putting your intention into your life, food and water!

Tune in here to listen to, “Healing Collective Trauma with Resmaa Menakem.” This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit drmarielbuque.substack.com/subscribe

Bestselling author Cheryl Strayed believes that writing your truth can set you free.Today we're sharing an excerpt from her conversation with Thomas at the upcoming Collective Trauma Summit. In it, she shares about a profound healing act that helped her process deep grief and trauma…writing. More specifically, the way that writing demands raw honesty and vulnerability, revealing our deepest truths about our human experiences.It's also an incredibly effective way to combat the isolation and loneliness that often accompany grief or trauma. In Cheryl's case, sharing her truth in her book, Wild, inspired people to reach out to her with their own stories of loss and pain, creating unexpected, deeply authentic connections. And it's through these connections that we can build much-needed shared spaces for healing individual and collective trauma.If you're moved by this conversation and want to hear the full talk, sign up at the link below and we'll notify you as soon as details are announced for the 2025 Collective Trauma Summit, taking place online this fall.

In this episode, host Lindsay continues her insightful discussion with trauma therapist Kathy Kinghorn. They delve into the dynamics of Internal Family Systems, drawing parallels between individual trauma responses & societal behaviors in the USA. They explore the roles of different internal 'parts' & how these dynamics manifest in current socio-political climates. They emphasize the importance of conscious inner work, understanding personal values, and fostering self-energy to drive positive change. The conversation also touches on systemic racism, privilege, and the power of collective healing. Tune in for an episode that offers hope and actionable insights for personal & societal transformation.00:50 Understanding IFS01:57 State of the USA: A Metaphor02:31 The Role of Firefighters in Society03:22 Addressing Systemic Issues06:07 Personal Values & Beliefs08:36 Privilege & Systemic Racism17:19 Legacy & Intergenerational Trauma21:22 Hope for the Future

What if the parts of you that sabotage, overachieve, numb out, or shut down… were just trying to help?In this 2 part series, I sit down with trauma therapist and IFS expert Kathy Kinghorn to explore how Internal Family Systems (IFS) gives us a radical, compassionate map of the human psyche. You'll learn how the different “parts” of you—yes, even the ones that seem chaotic or contradictory—are showing up for a reason. ✨ Topics We Cover:What IFS actually is (& how it mirrors your external family)Why they're ALL trying to help youThe neuroscience of partsWhat happens when we speak, lead, or parent from unintegrated parts

Today, we explore the collective experience of trauma among NHS ambulance personnel during the COVID-19 pandemic, a period that tested the resilience and identity of clinicians like never before. In the episode, we'll uncover the inspirations behind this research, examining how social identity processes provide a profound lens to understand how ambulance teams navigate trauma. Our guest will walk us through their methodology, highlighting the value of a longitudinal qualitative approach and the unique hurdles of conducting research during a global crisis.Jo guides us through her methodology, highlighting the importance of longitudinal qualitative approaches and the challenges of conducting research amid a global crisis. We unpack how group membership shaped emotional and behavioural responses during the pandemic, revealing the cultural forces at play within NHS ambulance services and how these dynamics contributed to collective resilience.We also explore the long-term psychological impact of the pandemic, comparing individual and team-based coping strategies, and discuss what this tells us about building solidarity under extreme strain.Finally, Jo shares practical, evidence-based strategies for leaders in emergency services to foster resilience, mitigate trauma, and apply these learnings to other high-stakes professions.Dr. Jo Mildenhall is a paramedic with over 20 years of experience in operational and leadership roles within ambulance services. She holds a master's degree in Occupational Trauma Psychology from the University of Nottingham and earned her Doctorate from the University of York, focusing on trauma experienced by NHS ambulance staff during the pandemic. Jo is the National Paramedic Mental Health & Wellbeing Lead for the College of Paramedics and was awarded a Churchill Fellowship in 2019 to study paramedic mental health initiatives in Australasia. You can access Jo's research here: https://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/id/eprint/35774/

Beneath doctrines and dogma lie the unclean spirits of collective trauma, those soul-wounds birthed not from mythic demons but from the lived trauma from it's very beginnings onward. In this episode, we name the ancient griefs still infecting the Church's body and explore how exorcism, catharsis, and ritual healing can help us recover what denial and the corruption of mistrust and community tried to destroy: our sacred wholeness. This is a journey through theology, history, and embodiment toward a liberation that begins within.Thanks for reading! This post is public so feel free to share it.Thank you for Tips / Donations: * https://ko-fi.com/cedorsett * https://patreon.com/cedorsett * https://cash.app/$CreationsPaths* Substack: https://www.creationspaths.com/New to The Seraphic Grove learn more For Educational Resource: https://wisdomscry.com Social Connections: * BlueSky https://bsky.app/profile/creationspaths.com * Threads https://www.threads.net/@creationspaths * Instagram https://www.instagram.com/creationspaths/#Christopagan #CreationSpirituality #ChristianWitch #Paganism #Esoteric #Magic #Druidry #Mysticism #Spirituality #Occult #WitchCraft #Wicca #IrishPaganism #CelticPaganism #Magick #Polytheism #Enchantment Chapters:00:00 Introduction to Delicate Topics00:26 Understanding Unclean Spirits01:24 Collective Trauma of the Church02:16 Historical Context and Jesus' Ministry05:15 Theological Debates and Early Schisms10:14 Modern Implications and Misogyny16:37 Catharsis and Healing Practices23:21 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Get full access to Creation's Paths at www.creationspaths.com/subscribe

Sara Connell is a 5-time bestselling author and the founder of Thought Leader Academy, helping coaches, experts and entrepreneurs scale impact and create 6-7 figure income by becoming bestselling authors and in-demand/TEDx speakers. Seventeen years ago, writing a book about her recovery from sexual assault and addiction saved Sara's life, inspiring her to pay that gift forward by writing her own books and helping leaders on a mission reach the people they are here to serve. Sara has been featured on/in Oprah, The New York Times, Good Morning America, TODAY, Forbes, Entrepreneur, and TEDx. Her books have been nominated for a National Book Award and Elle Magazine Book of the Year. Sara Connell is a 5x Bestselling author and the founder of Thought Leader Academy where she helps coaches, experts and entrepreneurs scale impact + create 6-7 figures by becoming bestselling authors and in demand/TEDx speakers. She has been featured on/in Oprah, The New York Times, Good Morning America, TODAY, Forbes, Entrepreneur and TEDx. Her books have been nominated for a National Book Award and Elle Magazine book of the year.

I was so excited to have my friend Neil Gaur return to Soul Elevation. Neil is a wealth of knowledge on spirituality, ascension, hidden histories, galactic insights, and basically everything mysterious. He is so fun to engage with, and I always learn new things when I'm listening to him. Neil Gaur is the founder of Portal to Ascension. In this discussion, we focus on the importance of shadow work, discuss various star races like Lyrans and Sirians, and explore the roles of snakes and dragons in humanity's history of ascension and descension. Neil also shares insights from his many lives in Orion and explains how these experiences relate to his current work.  This episode promises to stretch your understanding with discussions on ancient civilizations, hidden truths, and the intricate balance of light and shadow within and around us. Resources: Portal to Ascension: http://portaltoascension.org Shadow Worker's Course: https://portaltoascension.org/the-shadow-workers-course/ Get my book: https://www.karagoodwin.com/book Timestamp: 00:00 Introduction and Episode Overview 00:49 Meet Neil Gaur: Founder of Portal to Ascension 01:27 Kara's Book: Your Authentic Awakening 02:27 Neil's Journey: From Hinduism to Spiritual Awakening 05:31 Discovering Ancient Texts and Hidden Histories 08:34 The Role of Love and Spiritual Connection 21:15 The Cosmic Play: Duality, Free Will, and Creation 35:26 Reptilian Influence and Collective Trauma 36:31 Orion and the Stargate Connection 39:59 The Orion Wars and Reptilian Manipulation 47:42 Dragons: The Ancestors of Reptilians 54:16 The Year of the Dragon and Shadow Work 01:01:10 Upcoming Events and Final Thoughts

IT'S GODZILLLLLAAAAA!!!! We are finally facing the notorious giant with Godzilla Minus One. This has been a highly requested movie since it came out in 2023. Join us as we break down the concept of moral injury seen in the main character, as well as the collective trauma experienced by the Japanese people after WWII. Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/popcorn-psychology--3252280/support.

Why is it so hard to feel safe even when you're no longer in danger? In this episode of Moonbeaming, Sarah Faith Gottesdiener speaks with somatic healer Ifé Mora about the Nine of Wands archetype and what it means to live in a body that's been shaped by stress, trauma, and survival. They explore:The biology of burnoutThe impact of chronic stress on the nevous systemHow to heal through presence, education, and somatic practiceAnd powerful tools for regulating the nervous system.This is an episode for anyone feeling worn out, stuck in survival mode, or ready to rebuild.More on our guest:Ifé Mora is a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, Spiritual Buddhist teacher, and trauma-informed educator, as well as the founder of One Soma LLC, a healing organization focused on trauma education and social justice. She specializes in helping individuals resolve trauma, regulate their nervous systems, and build resilience through embodied, mind-body-spirit practices. Her work draws on Somatic Experiencing and neurobiological tools to foster deep healing and holistic well-being. Rooted in spiritual traditions, Ifé integrates personal development with trauma healing to support lasting transformation. She believes that trauma-informed education can help create a more just and compassionate society. Her mission is to help people reconnect with their authentic selves and unlock the body's natural ability to heal.Connect with Ifé:WebsiteInstagram--- Moon Studio workshop reminder:June 29th: The Constellation of the 9's: The Hermit, The Moon, & the 9's---Join the Moon Studio community:Join the Moon Studio Patreon.Buy the 2025 Many Moons Lunar Planner.Subscribe to our newsletter.Find Sarah on Instagram.

How a Doctor's Long COVID Journey Exposed Systemic FailuresMillions are still living with long COVID, yet many patients are dismissed, misunderstood, or left without answers. In this episode, Dr. Zeest Khan shares her personal journey—from treating critical patients as a cardiothoracic anesthesiologist to becoming a long COVID patient herself.This conversation isn't just about COVID—it's about how we listen, how we heal, and what needs to change.Guest: Dr. Zeest Khan, physician, long COVID advocate, and host of Long COVID MD podcast.Text me your feedback and leave your contact info if you'd like a reply (this is a one-way text). Thanks, DavidSupport the showShow Notes:https://outrageoverload.net/ Follow me, David Beckemeyer, on Twitter @mrblog or email outrageoverload@gmail.com. Follow the show on Twitter @OutrageOverload or Instagram @OutrageOverload. We are also on Facebook /OutrageOverload.HOTLINE: 925-552-7885Got a Question, comment or just thoughts you'd like to share? Call the OO hotline and leave a message and you could be featured in an upcoming episodeIf you would like to help the show, you can contribute here. Tell everyone you know about the show. That's the best way to support it.Rate and Review the show on Podchaser: https://www.podchaser.com/OutrageOverload Intro music and outro music by Michael Ramir C.Many thanks to my co-editor and co-director, Austin Chen.

How does sensing into our zones of stretch, comfort, and panic help us to expand our capacities for love and nonviolence — in their more radical iterations? Where might accountability come from in a world that seems to reward behaviors that are extractive, exploitative, and narcissistic?Our latest conversation features Kazu Haga, the author of Fierce Vulnerability, who invites us to shift the ways that we understand “power” and to center relational healing when addressing injustice.What does it mean for us to step into the role of becoming healers of collective trauma?We invite you to…tune in and subscribe to Green Dreamer via any podcast app;subscribe to kaméa's newsletters here;and support our show through a one-time donation or through joining our paid subscriptions on Patreon or Substack.Disclaimer: Please note that Green Dreamer's interviews are minimally edited (both audio and non-verbatim transcript) for clarity and brevity only. All statements should be understood as commentary based on publicly available information, and the views expressed in this interview are those of the guest and host only and do not necessarily reflect the views of Green Dreamer.While we have made reasonable effort in our interview research and production process to ensure accuracy, we do not present our content as factual assertion and we are unable to guarantee the completeness or correctness of every piece of information shared. As such, we invite you to view our publications as references and starting points to dive more deeply into each topic and thread explored.

How does sensing into our zones of stretch, comfort, and panic help us to expand our capacities for love and nonviolence — in their more radical iterations? Where might accountability come from in a world that seems to reward behaviors that are extractive, exploitative, and narcissistic?Our latest conversation features Kazu Haga, the author of Fierce Vulnerability, who invites us to shift the ways that we understand “power” and to center relational healing when addressing injustice.What does it mean for us to step into the role of becoming healers of collective trauma?We invite you to…tune in and subscribe to Green Dreamer via any podcast app;subscribe to kaméa's newsletters here;and support our show through a one-time donation or through joining our paid subscriptions on Patreon or Substack.

We often think of healing as an individual journey—going inward to process unresolved trauma, grief, and pain from our past. But what about collective trauma, grief, and pain? We rarely consider the healing that must take place beyond ourselves, addressing the unprocessed wounds we carry as a community. True healing requires creating safety both within and around us, allowing us to move beyond our personal experiences and contribute to something greater than our own individual worlds. On today's episode, we're joined by embodiment facilitator, political organizer, therapist, and podcast host, Prentis Hemphill. As the founder of The Embodiment Institute and The Black Embodiment Initiative, and host of Becoming The People, Prentis brings deep wisdom and presence to the conversation. They sit down with Elisabeth and Jennifer for a powerful discussion on healing in community, the role of embodiment in collective transformation, and the challenges of accountability. Prentis also shares invaluable insights on navigating fear, processing collective grief, and staying grounded in truth—especially when sharing your gifts with the world on a larger scale. On Trauma Rewired, often discuss how embodiment and healing requires repetition, practice, and safe spaces. It also takes courage—especially when facilitating collective healing. Prentis embodies this work in a profound way, so don't miss today's episode to hear their insights and much more! Topics discussed in this episode: ● How embodiment unfolds uniquely for each individual ● The healing journey as a shared, communal experience ● Barriers to accountability and how to navigate them ● The nervous system's role in shaping our ability to relate, reflect, and grow ● How Prentis balances visibility with safety and grounding ● The many forms of fear, both individually and collectively ● The impact of being denied the space to grieve ● The dual responsibility—and gift—of inner and collective healing ● Extending grace to others on their healing journeys ● The power of presence and why it matters now more than ever To learn more about The Embodiment Institute check on their website here: https://www.theembodimentinstitute.org/ To learn more about Prentis Hemphill, head to their Instagram page here: https://www.instagram.com/prentishemphill/?hl=en   Learn more about the Neuro-Somatic Intelligence Coaching program and sign up for the fall cohort now! https://www.neurosomaticintelligence.com Get started training your nervous system with our FREE 2-week offer on the Brain Based Membership site: https://www.rewiretrial.com Find Trauma Reiwred on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/@TraumaRewired   Connect with us on social media: @trauma.rewired Join the Trauma Rewired Facebook Group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/761101225132846 FREE 1 Year Supply of Vitamin D + 5 Travel Packs from Athletic Greens when you use my exclusive offer: https://www.drinkag1.com/rewired This episode was produced by Podcast Boutique https://www.podcastboutique.com Trauma Rewired podcast is intended to educate and inform but does not constitute medical, psychological or other professional advice or services. Always consult a qualified medical professional about your specific circumstances before making any decisions based on what you hear. We share our experiences, explore trauma, physical reactions, mental health and disease. If you become distressed by our content, please stop listening and seek professional support when needed. Do not continue to listen if the conversations are having a negative impact on your health and well-being. If you or someone you know is struggling with their mental health, or in mental health crisis and you are in the United States you can 988 Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. If someone's life is in danger, immediately call 911. We do our best to stay current in research, but older episodes are always available. We don't warrant or guarantee that this podcast contains complete, accurate or up-to-date information. It's very important to talk to a medical professional about your individual needs, as we aren't responsible for any actions you take based on the information you hear in this podcast. We invite guests onto the podcast. Please note that we don't verify the accuracy of their statements. Our organization does not endorse third-party content and the views of our guests do not necessarily represent the views of our organization. We talk about general neuro-science and nervous system health, but you are unique. These are conversations for a wide audience. They are general recommendations and you are always advised to seek personal care for your unique outputs, trauma and needs. We are not doctors or licensed medical professionals. We are certified neuro-somatic practitioners and nervous system health/embodiment coaches. We are not your doctor or medical professional and do not know you and your unique nervous system. This podcast is not a replacement for working with a professional. The BrainBased.com site and Rewiretrail.com is a membership site for general nervous system health, somatic processing and stress processing. It is not a substitute for medical care or the appropriate solution for anyone in mental health crisis. Any examples mentioned in this podcast are for illustration purposes only. If they are based on real events, names have been changed to protect the identities of those involved. We've done our best to ensure our podcast respects the intellectual property rights of others, however if you have an issue with our content, please let us know by emailing us at traumarewired@gmail.com All rights in our content are reserved

Jungian Psychoanalysts Laura Tuley and John White discuss Jungian Analysis in a World on Fire: At the Nexus of Individual and Collective Trauma, a volume of essays, all authored by practicing Jungian psychoanalysts, of which they were the editors. It examines and illuminates ways of working with individual analytic and therapeutic clients in the context of powerful and current collective forces, in the United States and beyond. Our Spring Fundraising Drive is live! Support this podcast by making a donation today. The first $7,000 in donations will be matched! Laura Camille Tuley, PhD (USA) is a Jungian Psychoanalyst in private practice in Madison, Wisconsin. She is the co-editor of Jungian Analysis in a World on Fire: At the Nexus of Individual and Collective Trauma (Routledge, 2024) and has contributed to Psychological Perspectives, Exploring Depth Psychology and the Female Self: Feminist Themes from Somewhere, Mothering in the Third Wave, Art Papers, Hypatia, the New Orleans Review and the APA Newsletter on Feminism and Philosophy. Tuley is a faculty member of the New Orleans Jung Seminar of the IRSJA and the co-editor of the “Clinical Commentaries” and “Film and Culture” features of the Journal of Analytical Psychology. John R. White, PhD's training was in philosophy and he was a philosophy professor for twenty years. As he moved into midlife, he began training as a psychotherapist. He has a Masters in mental health counseling from Franciscan University of Steubenville. He is also a psychoanalyst in the tradition of Carl Jung. He is a member of the Interregional Society of Jungian Analysts (IRSJA) and an associate member of the National Association for the Advancement of Psychoanalysis (NAAP). He practices psychotherapy according to psychodynamic, classical Jungian and archetypal approaches and more broadly in all approaches associated with “depth psychology”. Learn more at johnrwhitepgh.org. Edited by Laura Camille Tuley and John R. White: Patricia Martin, MFA, is the host of Jung in the World. A noted cultural analyst, she applies Jungian theory to her work as a researcher and writer. Author of three books, her work has been featured in the New York Times, Harvard Business Review, Huffington Post, and USA Today. She holds an MFA in writing and literature from Bennington College and an MA in cultural studies at the University College, Dublin (honors). In 2018, she completed the Jungian Studies Program at the C. G. Jung Institute Chicago where she is a professional affiliate. A scholar in residence at the Chicago Public Library, for the last decade she's been studying the digital culture and its impact on the individuation process. Patricia travels the world giving talks and workshops based on her findings, and has a private consulting practice in Chicago. Be informed of new programs and content by joining our mailing list! Support this free podcast by making a donation, becoming a member of the Institute, or making a purchase in our online store! Your support enables us to provide free and low-cost educational resources to all. This podcast is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. You may share it, but please do not change it, sell it, or transcribe it.Executive Producer: Ben LawHosts: Patricia Martin, Judith Cooper, Daniel Ross, Adina Davidson, and Raisa Cabrera2024-2025 Season Intern: Kavya KrishnamurthyMusic: Peter Demuth

In this episode, Guy spoke with Jude Currivan and discussed the transformation from an old worldview of separation to a new understanding of unity and conscious evolution. She emphasized the importance of recognizing our inseparable connection with the universe, which she described as living, loving, and purposeful. The conversation delved into the implications of this paradigm shift on personal and collective consciousness, touching on subjects like quantum physics, the nature of reality, and the evolving understanding of entropy. Currivan also shared insights from her own life's journey and the profound experiences that have shaped her path. The episode invites listeners to embrace a new perspective and to join in the global awakening towards realizing our true nature and purpose. About Jude: Dr Jude Currivan is a cosmologist, futurist, planetary healer, author, member of the Evolutionary Leaders Circle and previously one of the most senior international business women in the UK. She has a Master's degree in physics from Oxford University specializing in quantum physics and cosmology and a Ph.D. from the University of Reading, UK in archaeology researching ancient cosmologies.  She has travelled to over 80 countries, worked with wisdom keepers from many traditions and is a life-long researcher into the nature of reality. She is the international author of 7 nonfiction books, latterly and both award-winning and best-selling The Cosmic Hologram (2017) and The Story of Gaia (2022). In 2017 she co-founded WholeWorld-View to serve the understanding, experiencing and embodying of unitive awareness and conscious evolution. She is also a faculty member of Ubiquity University and Humanity's Team. Key Points Discussed:  (00:00) - Physicist's Urgent Message: A Conscious Universe Is Trying to Wake You Up (00:37) - Republishing the Episode: A Message from the Host (01:20) - Welcoming Jude: A Journey of Curiosity (04:00) - Early Experiences: A Lifelong Journey Begins (09:13) - Science and Spirituality: Bridging the Gap (20:54) - The Universe's Evolutionary Purpose (23:55) - Human Experience: Remembering Who We Are (28:22) - Raising Vibrational Awareness (29:23) - The Axial Age and Evolution of Ideas (30:55) - Separation and Collective Trauma (31:51) - The Flip in Evolutionary Terms (36:22) - Understanding Entropy and Information (45:53) - Realistic Optimism for the Future (48:24) - Personal Transformation and Radical Trust (50:06) - Final Thoughts and Resources How to Contact Jude Currivan:www.judecurrivan.comwww.wholeworld-view.org About me:My Instagram: www.instagram.com/guyhlawrence/?hl=en Guy's websites:www.guylawrence.com.au www.liveinflow.co''

Join us for part two of my conversation with Jenna McCarthy, author of, Yankee Doodle Soup for the Fringy, Tin-Foil Hat Wearing, Conspiracy Theorist's Soul and The War on Ivermectin with Dr. Pierre Kory.We process our parallel journies as COVID dissidents —including the lingering trauma so many of us continue to experience (well, maybe me more than Jenna!)Full disclosure—this episode was a bit of a therapy session for me ☺️. Jenna shared her unrelenting optimism despite all she endured thanks to her COVID dissident stance. Yes, she lost Hollywood contacts and movie deals. Yes, her friendships remain strained. Yes, her family initially resisted her anti-jab position. But she persevered and now Jenna's is THANKFUL for the COVID trials. She believes her response to the pandemic allowed her to find her life's purpose and mission.Join us to be blessed by Jenna's uplifting energy and spirit!Sponsor:The Wellness CompanyWebsite: ⁠https://www.twc.health/lovelife⁠Code: LOVELIFE for 15% off your order!Jenna McCarthyWebsite: https://jennamccarthy.com/Substack: https://jennasside.rocks/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jennamccarthyisback/ X: https://x.com/jennawrites Jenna's Book - Yankee Doodle Soup: https://yankeedoodlesoup.com/Dr. Karin & Pastor Elliott AndersonWebsite: http://loveandlifemedia.com/Empowered Dating Playbook: smarturl.it/EmpoweredDatingBookInstagram: @dr.karin | @pastorelliottanderson

Elliott and I have been doing a series on trauma—which got me thinking about the thing I'm pretty much always thinking about—COVID.Talk about a traumatizing event!Since we all—as in, the entire world—endured the pandemic, it certainly qualifies as what psychologists call a “collective trauma.”Because we went through it together, right? Well no, we didn't. The “collective trauma” wasn't a unifying experience. Some complied with the proclamations from “experts” on high. Others resisted the authoritarianism.The COVID event fractured society and pitted us against each other. Friendships broke down. Family members viewed each other with suspicion and disdain. We should have rallied together, yet we remained—and remain—polarized. How do we heal from “collective trauma” that has so splintered and divided?I'm still trying to figure it all out.To this end, we're launching a series on COVID trauma.I'm thrilled to introduce our first COVID trauma guest, Jenna McCarthy. She's the author of Yankee Doodle Soup for the Fringy, Tin Foil Hat-Wearing Conspiracy Theorist's Soul and The War on Ivermectin:  The Medicine that Saved Millions and Could Have Ended the Pandemic with Dr. Pierre Kory. Jenna shares her COVID journey—and yes, her career tanked and friends turned against her. Oh, and that screenplay she wrote—the one Hollywood producers were so excited about? It got tossed once she publicly challenged “the official” COVID narrative.If, like me, you're not over COVID—or, even if you are—this episode is for you! Dissidents will feel heard and validated. Those who went along with the program will gain a greater understanding as to why some of your friends and loved ones didn't.Sponsor:The Wellness CompanyWebsite: ⁠https://www.twc.health/lovelife⁠Code: LOVELIFE for 15% off your order!Jenna McCarthyWebsite: https://jennamccarthy.com/Substack: https://jennasside.rocks/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jennamccarthyisback/ X: https://x.com/jennawrites Jenna's Book - Yankee Doodle Soup: https://yankeedoodlesoup.com/Dr. Karin & Pastor Elliott AndersonWebsite: http://loveandlifemedia.com/Substack: https://loveandlifemedia.substack.com/Empowered Dating Playbook: smarturl.it/EmpoweredDatingBookInstagram: @dr.karin | @pastorelliottanderson

From a recent SAND Community Gathering (March 2025) Join mental health clinician Linda Thai and writer Jungwon Kim for an in-depth conversation on intergenerational trauma, historical grief, and healing in community. Together, they explored psychological, spiritual, and communal reverberations of historical violence, framed within the context of U.S. wars in Korea and Vietnam, yet deeply relevant to other conflicts, past and present. They shared their experiences and observations of the complex dynamics of remembering and forgetting—and how they play out across families and communities fragmented by political and militarized violence. Further, they explore modes of restoration that are often overlooked by Western therapeutic approaches: somatic and communal transmutation, cultural ritual, and narrative justice. The pathways they shared honor the deep connections between personal, historical, and communal dimensions of trauma. A vital conversation for anyone seeking to understand how the profound wisdom held within cultural memory can contribute to intergenerational healing. Jungwon Kim is an award-winning writer and cultural worker. She is also a communications leader, organizational strategy consultant, and journalist who has dedicated her professional life to human rights and environmental advocacy. As Head of Creative & Editorial at the Rainforest Alliance, she directed a multimedia team of writers, videographers, and graphic designers. Earlier in her career, she served as the editor of Amnesty International USA's human rights quarterly that featured the work of award-winning journalists and documentary photographers (circulation 300,000). She began her storytelling career as a newspaper reporter, magazine editor, and on-air correspondent for nationally syndicated public radio programs. Linda Thai, LMSW ERYT-200 is a trauma therapist and educator who specializes in brain and body-based modalities for addressing complex developmental trauma. Linda has worked with thousands of people from all over the world to promote mindfulness, recover from trauma, and tend to grief as a means of self care. Linda's work centers on healing with a special focus on the experiences of adult children of refugees and immigrants. Her teaching is infused with empathy, storytelling, humor, research, practical tools, applied knowledge, and experiential wisdom. She has assisted internationally renowned psychiatrist and trauma expert, Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, with his private small group psychotherapy workshops aimed at healing attachment trauma. She has a Master of Social Work with an emphasis on the neurobiology of attachment and trauma. Topics 00:00 Introduction and Welcome 00:38 Setting the Context: War and Generational Trauma 01:18 Introducing the Guests: Linda Thai and Jungwon Kim 02:17 Linda Thai's Story: A Journey of Healing 06:48 Jungwon Kim's Story: Bridging Generations 11:12 The Impact of War on Generations 13:08 Collective Trauma and Healing 29:39 Ritualizing Healing: The Concept of Han 34:41 The Role of Community in Healing 49:03 Conclusion and Future Conversations Resources Minds Under Seige (A SAND talk with Dr. Gabor Maté and Naomi Klein, facilitated by Cecilie Surasky). Podcast of this conversation. “Violent experiences alter the genome in ways that persist for generations” (Yale News) Han (Korean: 한), or haan, is a concept of an emotion, variously described as some form of grief or resentment, among others, that is said to be an essential element of Korean identity by some, and a modern post-colonial identity by others. – Support the mission of SAND and the production of this podcast by becoming a SAND Member

How does unprocessed trauma shape our economy, leadership, and collective decision-making? In this episode of Next Economy Now, Thomas Hübl, PhD, explores the deep connection between trauma and our broader societal and economic systems.For full show notes, visit: https://lifteconomy.com/blog/thomas-hubl/Send us a textA new cohort of the Next Economy MBA begins March 25th – join us! This nine-month learning journey is designed to provide emerging leaders of the Next Economy with the skills they need to help their organizations thrive.Learn more and sign up for a free intro with one of our facilitators: https://www.lifteconomy.com/mba.Special Offer for NEN Listeners: Use code PODCASTMBA to save 10% on tuition.Support the show

In this conversation, Keresse and Katie Bogen delve into the complexities of collective trauma, sexual trauma, and the healing process. They explore Katie's personal journey from trauma to sexual liberation, the importance of parental support for queer youth, and the societal norms that contribute to collective trauma. The discussion emphasizes the need for empathy and understanding in parenting, the role of gender in trauma experiences, and the power of joy and pleasure as forms of resistance against societal oppression. They also address the phenomenon of disassociation in trauma survivors and the various triggers that can arise in sexual contexts. In this conversation, Katie Bogen discusses the complexities of navigating sexual experiences, particularly for those with a history of trauma. She emphasizes the importance of practicing presence during intimacy, overcoming sexual shame, and establishing healthy boundaries. The dialogue also touches on the societal pressures women face regarding their sexuality and the need for open conversations about sexual agency. Bogen encourages individuals to embrace their sexual curiosity and advocate for their pleasure, while also addressing the impact of restrictive societal norms on sexual behavior.How to contact Katie:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/k.w.bogen/?hl=enhttps://linktr.ee/KwbogenChapters00:00Introduction to Collective Trauma and Healing03:03Katie's Journey: From Trauma to Sexual Liberation06:06The Impact of Parental Support on Queer Youth08:58Navigating Queerness: A Personal Narrative11:53Empathy and Understanding in Parenting15:01Collective Trauma and Societal Norms18:12The Role of Gender in Trauma Experiences20:51Reclaiming Joy and Pleasure as Resistance24:05Disassociation and Sexual Trauma27:13Understanding Triggers and Responses to Trauma30:32Navigating Sexual Triggers and Dissociation33:09Practicing Presence in Sexual Experiences36:40Understanding and Overcoming Sexual Shame43:22Establishing Healthy Sexual Boundaries52:50Reclaiming Sexual Agency in a Restrictive Society01:00:03Empowering the Younger Self Through CuriosityAbout the Host:Keresse Thompson is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker, intuitive empath, and professional Tarot reader. Through the Diary of an Empath podcast, she explores topics like mental health, spirituality, and personal development, aiming to guide listeners on their healing and growth journeys. Stay Connected: • Website: therapeutichealingbyreese.com • Instagram: @keresse • Facebook: Therapeutic Healing by Reese • TikTok: @DiaryofanEmpathPodcastIf you like this podcast please leave me a review and rate!For more info on my services such as Tarot readings please visit my website at www.therapeutichealingbyreese.com

In the wake of the election, many of us are reckoning with our collective trauma.The United States has a brutal trauma history etched into our collective unconscious. From centuries of genocide inflicted upon indigenous peoples of this land, to the immigration and assimilation of war-ravaged refugees hoping for a better life, to importing enslaved people from Africa and beyond… And yet, we live in a culture of erasure and assimilation, where all of that collective trauma has been hidden under the veneer of manifest destiny, the “land of opportunity” and the greatness of democracy.In light of the pain, division and political upheaval in our country, the cries for collective healing are getting too loud to ignore.If we hope to heal individually and heal as a society, we must address our ancestral and lineage trauma. We must dismantle the systems of oppression built from that trauma identity. We must support the evolution of our consciousness in connection, empathy and restitution.Join Michelle and Katherine for a powerful election response episode where they discuss systems of collective trauma and global healing. They talk about activating our inner warrior consciousness, and offer a prayer to invoke spirit guides for collective healing.Election response episodeCollective traumaAncestral and lineage traumaSystems of oppressionImmigrationHow to heal societyActivating inner warriorInvoke warrior guidesHealingConsciousnessCollective healingGlobal healingEvolution

Welcome to Season 3 of the Resilient Birth podcast. In this episode, Sarah shares her personal reaction to the current political climate in which women's voices seem increasingly devalued and men who have been accused of sexual misconduct are allowed into the heart of government. This is a raw and vulnerable sharing in which a sense of loss and helplessness is held alongside the hope that listeners, who perhaps also feel that their body will not forget this, will feel less alone. Justine and Sarah reflect on the emotional weight of motherhood and trauma in the current political climate, particularly regarding women's rights, voices, and the implications for future generations. Through personal anecdotes and a discussion of a quote from an op-ed by Damielle Campoarmor, https://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/pete-hegseth-confirmed-defense-secretary-assault-allegations-rcna189168, they emphasize the importance of speaking up even when it feels scary and the ongoing importance of your voice and the story your have to tell. On the Resilient Birth podcast, Justine and Sarah explore the impact of trauma across the perinatal period, from trying-to-conceive to pregnancy, from childbirth to postpartum and parenting. Through an inspirational quote that drives our weekly conversations about trauma and healing, Justine and Sarah explore topics such as birth trauma, parenting as a survivor, and finding healing with vulnerability and compassion that support birthing people and birth professionals. Each week, listeners leave with takeaways to utilize in their lives and/or clients. Justine and Sarah hold the stories they share with honor and respect with the hope to impart knowledge, increase understanding, and bear witness to this challenging topic. Sarah is a licensed mental health counselor, educator, and mom of three. She walks with a story of trauma from before and as a result of her perinatal experience. Justine supports survivors of trauma through perinatal coaching and childbirth education. As well as being a mother of three, she holds a Ph.D. on representations of consent and sexual violence and is currently doing a Masters in Counselling. Learn more about Sarah and Justine's course called Trauma Informed Fundamentals here: https://resilient-birth.mykajabi.com/traumainformedfundamentals Keywords: politics, motherhood, trauma, women's rights, cultural backlash, future generations, collective grief, speaking up, freedom of speech, accusations of sexual misconduct, confirmation hearings. Takeaways: Cultural backlash against women's rights is palpable. The future for children feels uncertain amidst political turmoil. Speaking out is scary and important. The importance of community and shared experiences. Voices of women must be amplified in political discourse. The journey of motherhood is political. Sound Bites "My body will not forget this." "I can feel the intensity of your rawness." "Where do we go from here?" "We can only turn a blind eye for so long." "Freedom of speech feels scary to speak." "How do you rise up in the darkness?" Chapters: 00:00 Introduction to Season Three 00:24 Reflections on Political Climate and Motherhood 04:06 The Impact of Trauma on Women 10:27 Cultural Backlash and Women's Voices 12:11 Imagining the Future for Our Children 17:11 Collective Trauma and Personal Grief 24:25 Finding Hope Amidst Darkness 27:25 The Importance of Speaking Up Even When it is Scary 33:25 Concluding Thoughts on Collective Voices

I discuss the upcoming major astrological shifts for Sagittarius and Sagittarius Rising in 2025. I include a timeline of ingresses with dates and describe the related astrology and how it will generally affect Sagittarians. This episode was published on February 9, 2025 at 11:11am EDT.Please also see:Why it's been so hard for Sagittarius: 2008-2026 - Oct 15, 2024Whoa! Sagittarius... + Channel Update (Jan 6, 2025)To book an astrology reading with me please see:https://aquariandiary.com/readings/Check my "Community Tab" where I comment, and share astrological updates and links that I find interesting:Please ⁠⁠add yourself to my contact list⁠⁠.There are transcripts of some episodes at my website.Related episodes and articles:Why it's been so hard for Sagittarius: 2008-2026 - Oct 15, 2024Pluto in Aquarius - Dawn of Global Consciousness⁠ ⁠- Feb 14, 2022Pluto at 29° Capricorn - A Karmic Reckoning - Jan 26, 2023Saturn, Chiron, Collective Trauma and DarknessSaturn transit Pisces - Reality CheckOther episodes of mine featuring PlutoOther episodes of mine featuring NeptuneOther episodes of mine featuring SaturnPluto on the Cusp of Aquarius - Late 2024 - Sep 17, 2024Astrological Influences Are Becoming Stronger - Nov 4, 2022Uranus square Pluto and Far-Right Extremism: 1930's and 2010's - Jun 15, 2023The Astrology of Mass Delusion: 2011-2026 - Jun 21, 2023Pluto Transit Capricorn - Lessons for HumanityThe Narrowing Spiritual Path - August 12, 2024The Great 2020's Timeline Split - Feb 28, 2022The Stunning Transit of Neptune in Aries: 2025-2039The Dramatic Astrology of 2028North Node transit Aries / South Node transit Libra: 2023-2025Can Other People's Energies Affect Us? - Aug 12, 2024The Spiritual Seeker vs the Collective - July 4, 2024The Myth of Consensus Reality - Jul 2, 2024Don't Look Down (too much) - Jun 4, 2024Energetic Hygiene - A "How To" with Practical Suggestions - Mar 21, 2023Objectification for Fun and Profit - Aug 10, 2024We Must Resist Corporate Control of the Internet - July 31, 2024AI and the Death of the Internet - Feb 1, 2024Natural vs Transactional Reality - Being in the Flow of Authenticity - July 11, 2024Infants in Power - Nov 15, 2022An Ode to the Divine Feminine - July 5, 2024A Prayer for You - June 2, 2024Miracles, Love, Abundance - Potent Manifestation in early June 2024 - June 1, 2024Angst and Illumination - Let Go to Level Up - May 31, 2024It's Happening - The Wheel Turns - Apr 21, 2024Judgement Is Upon Us - Apr 18, 2024Hold The Line Against The Darkness - Mar 28, 2024The Die Has been Cast - June 3, 2023The Never-Ending Tragedy of Spineless Complicity - Dec 12, 2023Lightworker Activations - Pluto in Aquarius 2nd ingressPurging and Decompression—You can also support this channel with ⁠a monthly membership⁠.⁠#Astrology #Sagittarius #SagErrata

In our recent episodes, we've explored what it means to lose home—from the immediate chaos of evacuation to the grief of loss, to the challenging work of supporting a community in crisis.  Today, we're examining the deeper psychological impact of disaster on communities. Dr. David Eisenman has spent more than two decades studying how disasters affect public health and community resilience. As director of UCLA's Center for Public Health and Disasters and a practicing physician, he brings both research insight and frontline experience to our conversation about healing after loss. We discuss how communities can support one another through trauma, what the long-term effects of displacement look like, and how we can build resilience in the face of increasing natural disasters. EPISODE SHOWNOTES: Read more. BE AFFIRMED. Get the Good Words email series. JOIN THE HOPEFULS. Get inside the group. WHAT'S YOUR CAUSE? Take our quiz. BE INSPIRED. Follow us on Instagram. DO GOOD. Give to The Salvation Army.

I briefly discuss the upcoming major planetary shifts and the status of my astrology readings. This episode was published on January 26, 2025 at 10:28am EDT.To book an astrology reading with me please see:https://aquariandiary.com/readings/Check my "Community Tab" where I comment, and share astrological updates and links that I find interesting:Please ⁠⁠add yourself to my contact list⁠⁠.There are transcripts of some episodes at my website.Related episodes and articles:Why it's been so hard for Sagittarius: 2008-2026 - Oct 15, 2024Pluto in Aquarius - Dawn of Global Consciousness⁠ ⁠- Feb 14, 2022Pluto at 29° Capricorn - A Karmic Reckoning - Jan 26, 2023Saturn, Chiron, Collective Trauma and DarknessSaturn transit Pisces - Reality CheckOther episodes of mine featuring PlutoOther episodes of mine featuring NeptuneOther episodes of mine featuring SaturnPluto on the Cusp of Aquarius - Late 2024 - Sep 17, 2024Astrological Influences Are Becoming Stronger - Nov 4, 2022Uranus square Pluto and Far-Right Extremism: 1930's and 2010's - Jun 15, 2023The Astrology of Mass Delusion: 2011-2026 - Jun 21, 2023Pluto Transit Capricorn - Lessons for HumanityThe Narrowing Spiritual Path - August 12, 2024The Great 2020's Timeline Split - Feb 28, 2022The Stunning Transit of Neptune in Aries: 2025-2039The Dramatic Astrology of 2028North Node transit Aries / South Node transit Libra: 2023-2025Can Other People's Energies Affect Us? - Aug 12, 2024The Spiritual Seeker vs the Collective - July 4, 2024The Myth of Consensus Reality - Jul 2, 2024Don't Look Down (too much) - Jun 4, 2024Energetic Hygiene - A "How To" with Practical Suggestions - Mar 21, 2023Objectification for Fun and Profit - Aug 10, 2024We Must Resist Corporate Control of the Internet - July 31, 2024AI and the Death of the Internet - Feb 1, 2024Natural vs Transactional Reality - Being in the Flow of Authenticity - July 11, 2024Infants in Power - Nov 15, 2022An Ode to the Divine Feminine - July 5, 2024A Prayer for You - June 2, 2024Miracles, Love, Abundance - Potent Manifestation in early June 2024 - June 1, 2024Angst and Illumination - Let Go to Level Up - May 31, 2024It's Happening - The Wheel Turns - Apr 21, 2024Judgement Is Upon Us - Apr 18, 2024Hold The Line Against The Darkness - Mar 28, 2024The Die Has been Cast - June 3, 2023The Never-Ending Tragedy of Spineless Complicity - Dec 12, 2023Lightworker Activations - Pluto in Aquarius 2nd ingressPurging and Decompression—You can also support this channel with ⁠a monthly membership⁠.⁠#Astrology #Sagittarius #SagErrata

Life's challenges can leave deep scars, but they can also become a roadmap for profound transformation.In today's bonus episode, I join coach, therapist, and warrior-philosopher Paul Chek to share my journey of surviving child abuse, addiction, and a brush with a cult—on through to finding healing and purpose through learning and living timeless spiritual principles like honesty, loyalty, and love.We explore how chaotic childhood environments shape the nervous system, how predators recognize and target vulnerable people, and how trauma creates painful cycles that, thankfully, can be broken with intentional work.This episode is more than a personal story—it's an invitation to reflect on societal challenges like disempowered masculinity, the infectious nature of trauma, and how this makes us susceptible to manipulation by bad actors (like governments!).We also discuss how building micro-communities gives us models for relating like our healthier ancestors did, and how doing our own healing work can shift the collective trajectory.If you're seeking tools to come out of chaos and into clarity, this conversation offers inspiration and practical insights.

Friend of the podcast Zach Greer sat down to watch Joe Flacco and Drew Lock play professional football Sunday afternoon. He joined a number Indianapolis Colts fans in doing so. On this podcast, after a 45-33 loss to a bad New York Giants team, a bunch of Colts fans joined him to further describe what it is like to watch this team week after week, year after year. Soon enough, this episode turns into a therapy session that combines friends, deep analysis, choice words, emotional takes and laughter; all the things the podcast has tried to be in 2024.  Contact The Show Here!Email: 20czuver@gmail.com

*Trigger warning for this episode as we are discussing trauma. After today's episode, head on over to @therapybookspodcast to learn about the latest giveaway. If you are enjoying these episodes, please leave us a 5-star review. *Information shared on this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only. This episode is for those in the helping professions. In this episode of What Your Therapist Is Reading, Jessica Fowler is speaking with Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S, and Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S, two of the authors of the book, Trauma Impacts: Repercussions of Individual and Collective Trauma. The episode focuses on the multifaceted effects of trauma, both on individuals and communities, and how these impacts ripple through generations.   Highlights include: 10:04 Shares how the book is set up including the 3 sections which include the impacts of trauma, trauma impacts with specific populations, and future implications. 13:01 Exploring relationships within the systems and need for healing. 18:19 Generational Trauma. 20:15 When the helper is in crisis too. 21:01 Trauma and neurodiversity. 27:03 Who this book is for. About the authors: Jessica Stone, Ph.D., RPT-S, is a licensed psychologist working in a private practice setting. She has been a practitioner, professor, presenter, mentor, and author for more than 30 years. Dr. Stone's interest in therapeutic digital tools, specifically using virtual reality, tablets, and consoles and AI, has culminated in clinical mental health use and research for mental health, medical, and crisis settings. She is the co-creator of the Virtual Sandtray App for iPad (VSA) and the Virtual Sandtray for Virtual Reality (VSA-VR). Dr. Stone is the past Chief Psychology Officer for AscendantVR, is a member of various boards, and serves as an affiliate of the East Carolina University College of Education Neurocognition Science Laboratory. Clair Mellenthin, LCSW, RPT-S, is a renowned clinical supervisor, international speaker, and acclaimed play therapist. As the author of best-selling books like "Attachment Centered Play Therapy," she brings unparalleled expertise to the field. With a wealth of experience as a play therapist and professor, Clair has significantly impacted the lives of numerous children and families. Recognized for her contributions, she is a sought-after expert in media, frequently sharing insights on children and family issues at both local and national levels. Dr. Robert Jason Grant is the creator of AutPlay® Therapy. He is a therapist, supervisor, and consultant and utilizes several years of advanced training and his own lived neurodivergent experience to provide affirming services to children and their families. He is an international trainer and keynote presenter and multi-published author of several articles and books. He is currently serving on the board of directors for the Association for Play Therapy.

Send me a text message and get your questions answered on the podcast! I'd love to hear from you! The weight of the world feels heavier than ever, especially for women of color navigating consulting and entrepreneurship. But what happens when betrayal doesn't come from outside forces, but from within your own circle or professional community? In this episode, we explore the complex emotions tied to cultural betrayal and collective trauma, and how they impact your ability to thrive in business. If you've been feeling disillusioned, frustrated, or even stuck, this conversation is exactly what you need to regain clarity, build resilience, and move forward boldly. Tune in and discover how to show up for yourself, your business, and your community—no matter what.***Subscribe and share this episode to inspire others to join this supportive and transformative conversation.***For more information, visit https://excelatconsulting.com/

Send me a text message and get your questions answered on the podcast! I'd love to hear from you! What if the collective trauma we experience could be transformed into a tool for empowerment and change? This miniseries confronts the profound emotions and societal challenges that have intensified following recent U.S. election outcomes. Through heartfelt discussion and historical insights, we delve into the concept of collective trauma, emphasizing its generational impact on marginalized communities. We will walk through through the five stages of grief, illustrating how each phase manifests and the vital role they play in processing trauma. This episode is a call to action, urging brilliant, ambitious women, especially Black women, to harness their collective strength and forge the futures they deserve. ***Subscribe and share this episode to inspire others to join this supportive and transformative conversation.***For more information, visit https://excelatconsulting.com/

In this episode, Lindsay explores the concept of collective trauma, particularly in the wake of major world events like elections, natural disasters, and the pandemic. Lindsay also discusses the importance of completing stress response cycles, acknowledging and processing emotions, and shares practical tips and tools for self-care. Afterwhich, Lindsay shares her thoughts on the election, groups she cares about that informed her decision on who to vote for, and a message of hope and healing.  00:00 Introduction and Podcast Setup00:31 Understanding Collective Trauma01:30 Self-Care During Intense Times04:05 Completing the Stress Response Cycle05:13 Restoring Power and Connection08:51 Navigating Post-Event Emotions09:27 Personal Reflections and Political Views14:46 Conclusion and Message of HopeLindsay's current program offerings: Looking for a new career as a Certified Trauma-Informed Coach? It's time to Become a Trauma-Informed Coach. Learn more about Lindsay's life coach certification here. Are you already a Certified Coach looking to deepen your skillset by Becoming Trauma-Informed, with a spiritual twist? Click here to see if Lindsay's Advanced Intuitive Trauma Certification for Coaches is a fit for you. Our next round will be during 2025. Are you needing help healing from Religious Conditioning, or expanding in your Spirituality–safely? Click here. Are you Healing from Betrayal Trauma in your Marriage? Click here. Check out her website here: Website.Find me on Instagram : @lindsaypoelmancoaching---Your host, certified life coach Lindsay Poelman started her journey of intentional healing started when she learned that her husband had been lying to her about pornography use for a greater pa...

Matthias Roberts is a queer  psychotherapist (in Washington State) and the author of both "Holy Runaways:Rediscovering Faith After Being Burned by Religion" and "Beyond Shame: Creating a Healthy Sex Life on Your Own Terms". He is one of my favorite friends I met in graduate school, a human deeply committed to connection and curiosity,  and someone who I deeply admire. With Matthias, I feel a sense of belonging and openness to understanding the world and holding space for that curiosity which is so threatening elsewhere. Rebecca W. Walston is an African American lawyer, who also holds a MA Counseling, an all around boss babe. Rebecca runs a Law Practice and serves as General Legal Counsel for The Impact Movement, Inc.  She is someone who fiercely advocates for others freedom and healing. She is a dear friend and colleague, who anyone would be lucky to spend a dinner with talking about almost anything.Trigger Warning: Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics.This is not psychological advice, service, or prescriptive treatment for anxiety or depression. The content related to descriptions of depression, anxiety, or despair may be upsetting or triggering, but are clearly not exhaustive. If you should feel symptoms of depression and/or anxiety, please seek professional mental health services, or contact (in Kitsap County) Kitsap Mobile Crisis Team at  1-888-910-0416. The line is staffed by professionals who are trained to determine the level of crisis services needed. Depending on the need, this may include dispatching the KMHS Mobile Crisis Outreach Team for emergency assessment. Speaker 1 (00:18):Welcome to the Rise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. Today we're continuing our conversation on election humanity and politics. I have two guests today. I'm very excited about it. Matthias Roberts, who's a queer psychotherapist in Washington State, and the author of both Holy Runaways and Beyond Shame. Actually, he's one of my favorite friends I met in graduate school. I don't know if he knows that he's a human, deeply committed to connection and curiosity and someone I deeply admire with Matthias. I've always felt this sense of belonging and openness to understanding the world and holding space for that actual curiosity, which has seems so threatening elsewhere. So I want to thank Matthias for joining me and taking time out of his morning. And Rebecca Wheeler Walstead holds an MA in counseling an all around boss babe. Rebecca runs a law practice and serves as general legal counsel for the Impact movement, and she is someone who fiercely advocates for others freedom and healing. She's a dear friend, obviously she's a colleague and she's someone that anybody would be lucky to spend a dinner with talking about almost anything. So thank you, Rebecca, for joining me today.(01:40):I can say that for myself in my own experience, my anxiety is heightened overall and feelings that I can keep at bay with regular normal coping mechanisms such as exercise. It takes to me a little bit more and I have to offer myself a lot more grace in the process. I encourage you no matter where you are, to engage these topics with grace towards your own self, towards your neighbor, towards your family, and towards whoever's in your proximity. We won't get things done overnight no matter who we are, and we will get them done if we become more aligned and care more for those in our proximity, that means our neighbor. So if you're feeling or experiencing anxiety around the election or family or other triggers, I want you to encourage you to seek out and find someone to speak with. Maybe you need a mental health professional, maybe you need a spiritual advisor. Maybe it's your coach and it's something related to business. Maybe you need to go see your doctor for aches and pains you've been having. I don't know what it might be for you, but don't hesitate to reach out and get the help you need. We're going to jump into the conversation and voices from across the country. We are all different and we're not meant to be the same. I hope you find pieces of you in each of their stories. Hey, Rebecca. Hey, Matthias. Thanks for being with me today.Speaker 2 (03:06):Daniel, thanks for havingSpeaker 1 (03:07):Us. I just thought we would talk about this really amazing subject of politics and humanness because we're so good at it in the United States. Yeah, right. Y'all thoughts on that? Even as I say that, just politics and being human, what comes to mind?Speaker 2 (03:34):For me, there's almost a dual process happening. I think about my first thought was, well, politics are, but then I also thought about how when we separate institutions out from people, especially in the way that corporations tend to separate out how they become anti-human so quickly, and not that politics is necessarily a corporation, but I think there's a form of it. There's something corporate about it. And so I think about that juxtaposition and maybe the dichotomy there between, yeah, it's human, but I think it's also anti-human in the ways that it has to, I think almost by definition, separate from maybe these places of deep feeling or nuance in order to collapse all of that experience into something that people can rally on.Speaker 3 (04:51):I think there's something dehumanizing about our current politics, but I think that that is about power. I think when politics becomes about the consolidation of power or the perpetuation of power or the hanging on to it sort of desperately, then it no longer is about the people that the institutions and the country was built to serve and protect. And so I think there are all these ideals in our politics that on paper and in theory sound amazing, but when people in their humanness or maybe in the worst of our humanness step away from other people and not just people as sort of this collective generalized, but the actual person in front of you, the actual person in front of you and the story that they have and the life that they live, and how decisions and theories and ideals will impact the actual person in front of you. And when politics becomes about collecting power and maintaining that power at all costs, then it's no longer about people. It's no longer about lives. It's no longer about stories, and all those things become expendable in the name of the consolidation and the maintenance of power. And I think that at its heart is a human question. It's a question of selfishness and self-serving and maybe even self idolatry.Speaker 1 (06:49):I think that I agree, Matthias, I've been thinking a lot about, because in my family it's been a lot of comments like, well, we shouldn't talk about politics because we're family. I'm like, wait a minute, wait just a minute. Because the very politic that is being said from one angle is hurting the humanity of this other particular family member. How do we make sense of that? How do we say politics isn't a very human, the impact is meant to impact humans. The power is meant to impact humans, so the political sphere has become so toxic to us.Speaker 3 (07:40):Yeah, I think that sentence, we shouldn't talk about politics because we're family. It says more about maybe our fragility as a culture in this moment and our inability to have hard conversations without feeling like the difficulty of them fractures, relationships and familial bonds in ways that cannot be repaired or restored in any way. And I think it is also a statement about the toxicity of our politics that we have allowed it to get to a place where it actually threatens those kinds of familial bonds in some sense, you want go back to, you remember that book that was big in the nineties? All I ever learned about life I learned in kindergarten, right? All I ever needed to know, it reminds me of that because raising kids, I would raise my kids to say, there isn't anything on this earth that should fracture your bond as siblings. I raised them to believe that. I insisted that they engage the world from this vantage point that come hell or high water do or die is you and your sister. That's it. And it doesn't matter what happens in this world, there should never be a scenario in which that isn't true. And we have arrived at this place where people honestly believe that your political affiliation somehow threatens that.(09:19):That's sad and sad feels like a word that's not heavy enough to articulate. There's something wrong, really wrong if that's where we are,Speaker 2 (09:35):I think it speaks perhaps to our inability to do conflict well, and I'm the first, I don't do this all with my family at all. I'm terrible at conflict with my family, at least in the arena of politics. But I think about, I wonder if some of the fracturing that we say, I don't think it's all of it by any means, but is that reality of, because we can't have these conversations in our immediate family, it's getting projected into the wider, I mean, it has to play out somewhat. It is going to, that's the nature of it. So because we can't do it locally, it is having to play out on this grand scale. Rebecca, as you said, sad. I think it's horrifying too.Speaker 1 (10:44):It's what?Speaker 2 (10:45):Horrifying.Speaker 1 (10:46):Yes. It's very dangerous to be honest.Speaker 2 (10:54):It's very, yeah, those bonds, we have the familial bonds. Those are protective in some ways when we remove that, we remove those protections.Speaker 1 (11:11):I think we've been practicing at a society, and I'm talking particularly about the United States at ways of removing those bonds in multiple spheres of the way we've thought about life, the way we think about another person, the way we judge each other, the way we vote in past elections. I mean, the civil rights movement is pushing against that notion that family means dehumanizing someone else. And so even this idea of, I'm not even sure if I can say it right, but just how we've constructed the idea of family and what do our shared values mean. In some sense, it's been constructed on this false notion that someone is worth more than another person. Now, when that person shows up as fully human, then I think we don't know what to do with it.Speaker 3 (12:11):Yeah. I think something you said, Mathias about we don't do conflict well, right? I think rarely is any issue, black and white. Rarely is any issue. So clear cut and so definitive that you can boldly stand on one side or the other and stay there in perpetuity without ever having to wrestle or grapple with some complexity, some nuance. And I think maybe part of what we don't do well is that right? Somehow we've gotten to this space where we have maybe an oversimplified if that, I'm not even sure that's a good word, perspective on a number of issues as if there isn't any complexity and there isn't any nuance and there isn't any reason to pause and wonder if context or timing would change the way we think about something, right? And nor do we think that somehow changing your mind is no longer acceptable.(13:20):I think about, I saw a number of interviews with Kamala Harris. People talk to her about, well, why'd you change your mind about this or that? Why'd you change your perspective about this or that? And then part of the conversation was about when did we get to this place where growing and learning and changing your mind is bad for someone who is in the profession of holding public office since when can you not get in public office, learn some things differently, meet some new people, understand the issue better, and go, you know what? I need to change the way I think about this, but we are there. All of a sudden it means you're not fit for office, at least as it has been applied to Kamala Harris in this particular and even before her. The notion of a flip flopper is again to say you can't somehow change your mind.Speaker 2 (14:21):So that makes me start to then think about some of the myths, and I mean that deeper theological myth in the sense of not that it is untrue, but more in the sense of how it permeates culture. That's when I say myth and we have this idea or many people have this idea of a God that doesn't change, a God who doesn't change his mind as the ideal of there is right there is wrong, and the ideal is no change. And we have examples and scriptures, at least I believe, of a God who does change his mind, who sees what happens and change is what he does. And I think those can be compatible with maybe some ideas that maybe God doesn't change, but we also have examples of God changing his mind. But I think that has permeated our world of something unchanging is better than someone who or something who does change. And I wonder what that impact has beenSpeaker 3 (15:38):That made me pause. I certainly come out of a faith background of hold to God's unchanging hand. I mean, I can come up off the top of my head with a dozen different examples of the notion of he does not shift, he does not change. And the kind of comfort or solidity that can be found in this notion that we're not subject to the whim of his mood in any given time, but what you said causes me to think about it and to think about what does it mean to say that we live in a world where there is a God who can be persuaded by something in the human context that will cause him to respond or react differently than perhaps his original mindset is. I'm going to walk away from this conversation pondering that for a while. I think,Speaker 2 (16:30):Yeah, there are stories of that in scripture.Speaker 3 (16:36):The one that comes to my mind is the story of, and I'm not going to get all the names correct, so whoever's listening, forgive me for that. But the story that comes to my mind is the prophet of old who is pleaded with God for more time on earth, for more space to be alive and walk the earth as a human being. And God granted his request. And again, now there's a bit of a paradigm shift for me. What does it mean to say that I live in a world where there's a God who can be persuaded? I think the other thing when you said about a God who changes his mind, what comes up for me is also a God who holds extremely well the nuance and the complexity of our humanness and all that that means. And so often I find it's sort of the pharmaceutical attitude that we can have that things are rigid and there's only one way to see it and one way to do it. And if you ever watch Jesus's engagement with the Pharisees, it's always actually the problem is more complex than that. Actually the question you're asking is more than that. And so what matters less is the rule. What matters more is the impact of that rule. And if we need to change the rule in order for the appropriate impact, then let's do that.Speaker 1 (18:08):It's kind of gets back to something I've been learning in consultation, talking about this idea. I think we're talking about very young spaces collectively for our society. If I was to put it in that frame, the idea of as a child, a very young kid, even into your teenagers, you need to know something solid. You need to know that's not changing. That's the rule. That's what I got to do. And it's the parent's responsibility to make meaning and metabolize nuance for you and help you process through that. But one of our first developmental things is to split. This is good, this is bad, this person is safe, this person. That's a developmental process. But in somewhere we got stuck,Speaker 3 (18:54):It brings to my mind, you've heard me reference raising kids. And so I raised my kids to say this idea that you have to be respectful and thoughtful in your choices. And I always told my kid that so long as you are respectful and thoughtful in your choices, your voices will always be heard and welcomed kind of in our home. And so my daughter approached me, she's making an argument about something that I absolutely did not agree with her final conclusion. I was like, there's no version of anybody's universe where you're doing that, right? And she says to me, but you said if I was thoughtful and I was respectful that I could assert my position and I have been respectful in my tone and I've been thoughtful in my position. And she was absolutely right. Both had been true, and I found myself having to say, okay, now I sort of backed myself into a corner.(19:58):She followed me into it and the conversation ended up being about, Hey, that's true. Those are the parameters, but you're older now and the things that you're making decisions about have more impact and they're more nuanced and complex than that. So we need to add a couple more things to your rubric, and it's a hard conversation to have, but it makes me think about that developmental piece that you're saying, Danielle, that when we're younger, there's certain sort of bright line rules and the older you get and the more complex life gets, the more you need to be able to actually blur those lines a little bit and fudge them a little bit and sometimes color outside of the lines because it is the right thing to do.Speaker 2 (20:48):I think that movement from that really kind of rigid split into Rebecca what you're talking about, it requires that grappling with grief and loss, it requires that sense of even if I followed the rules, I didn't get what I wanted. And that is we have options there. We can rage against it and go back into the split, you are bad. I'm good, or actually grapple with that. I did everything I was supposed to and it still didn't work out in that words, it doesn't feel good and grieve and feel the pain of that and actually work with those parts of ourselves. And there is so much that our nation has not grieved, not repented from, and we are in the consequences of that.Speaker 1 (21:53):I was just thinking that Mathias, it's like we're asking one another to make meaning, but we're at a very base level of meaning making. We're trying to first discern, discern what is reality, and a lot of times we don't share reality, but when you're a baby, the reality is your caregiver hopefully, or even the absence of you become accustomed to that. And so I think we've become accustomed to this sense of almost this indoctrination of a certain type of religion, which I would call white evangelical Christianity, where they're telling you, I can make sense of all of this from the perspective of race. I can do that for you. Whether they talk about it explicitly or not, they're like, I can tell you what's good and bad from this perspective, but then if you add in how do you make sense of all the Christians vote for Trump and 84% of African-Americans are going to vote for Kamala Harris. I grew up thinking, are those people not Christians? I didn't know as a kid, I was raised with my father. I didn't understand, didn't make sense to me, but I thought, how could so many people as a child, I actually had this thought, how could so many people not know Jesus, but go to church and how could all these people know Jesus and say they're going to heaven? It never made sense to me.Speaker 3 (23:19):I mean, what you're saying, Danielle, is probably why there is a very clear historical and present day distinction between white evangelism and the black church. That's why those two things exist in different spaces because even from the very beginning, white evangelicalism or what became white evangelicalism advocated for slavery, and Frederick Douglass learned how to read by reading the scripture at risk to his own life and to the white slave owner who taught him how to read. And once he learned to read and absorbed the scriptures for himself, his comment is there is no greater dichotomy than the Christianity of this world and the Christianity of scripture. And so your sense that it doesn't make any sense is as old as the first enslaved African who knew how to understand the God of the Bible for him or herself and started to say out loud, we got problems, Houston.Speaker 1 (24:39):Yeah, I remember that as a young child asking that question because it just never made sense to me. And obviously I understand now, but as a kid you grow up with a certain particular family, a Mexican mom, a white father. I didn't know how to make sense of that.Speaker 3 (25:04):I mean, you say, oh, even now I understand and I want to go. You do. I don't explain that to me. I mean, there's a certain sense in which I think we're all in many ways, and I say all the country as a whole church, the American church as a whole trying to make sense of what is that, what was that and what do we do now that the modern sort of white evangelical movement is essentially the Christianity of our entire generation. And so now that that's being called into question in a way that suggests that perhaps it is white and it's religious, but it might not in fact be the Christianity of the Bible. Now what do we do? And I've spent some time in recent years with you, Danielle, in some Native American spaces in the presence of theologians who reckoned with things of God from a Native American perspective.(26:09):And if nothing else, I have learned there's a whole bunch. I don't know about what it means to walk with the God of the Bible and that my native brothers and sisters know some things I don't know, and I am kind of mad about it. I'm kind of angry actually about what it is they know that was kept from me that I was taught to dismiss because the author of those ideas didn't look like the white Jesus whose picture was in my Bible or on the vacation Bible school curriculum or whatever. I'm sort of angry at the wisdom they hold for what it means to be a follower of what I think in many native spaces they would refer to as creator, and that was withheld from me. That would've changed the way, enhanced the way I understand this place of faith. And something that white evangel and evangelicalism expressly said was heresy was of the devil was to be ignored or dismissed or dismantled or buried.Speaker 1 (27:31):I mean, you have Tucker Carlson referring to Trump as daddy in a recent speech. So you then have this figure that can say, Hey, little kids, don't worry. Your worldview is okay. It's still right and let me make sense of it. I can make sense of it for you with X, Y, Z policies with racist rhetoric and banter. I can do anything I want. I can show up in Madison Square Garden and replicate this horrific political rally and I can do it and everybody will be okay with it, even if they're not okay, they're not going to stop me. So we still have a meaning maker out there. I mean, he is not making my meaning, but he's making meaning. For a lot of folks.Speaker 3 (28:29):It is even worse than that. There's a couple of documentaries that are out now. One's called Bad Faith, the other one's called God and Country, and in one of them, I think it was Bad Faith, and they're talking about the rise of Christian nationalism. For me, as a person of faith, one of my biggest questions has always been, there's nothing about this man's rhetoric that remotely reflects anything I ever learned in every Sunday school class and every vacation Bible school, in every Bible study and every church service I've ever been to. He is boldly antithetical to all of it.(29:06):And he says that out loud, right back to his comments about, no, I've never asked God for forgiveness because I've never done anything that warranted forgiveness that is antithetical to the heart of evangelical Christianity that asserts that the only way to God and to heaven in the afterlife is through the person of Jesus Christ. And so every person has to admit their own sin and then accept Christ as the atonement for that sin. And he bluntly says, I don't do that. Right. So my question has always been, I don't get it right. Two plus two is now four in your world. So how are 80% of evangelicals or higher voting for this man? And in that movie, bad faith, they talk about, they make reference to the tradition of Old Testament scripture of a king who is not a follower of God, who God sort of uses anyway towards the bent of his own will.(30:18):And there's probably a number of references in Old Testament scripture if I was an Old Testament theologian, some of the people who have invested in me, I could give you names and places and dates. I can't do that. But there is a tradition of that sort of space being held and the notion what's being taught in some of these churches on Sundays and on Wednesday night Bible study is that's who he is. That's who Trump is in a religious framework. And so he gets a pass and permission to be as outlandish and as provocative and as mean spirited and as dare I say, evil or bad as he wants to be. And there is no accountability for him in this life, or the next one, which I don't even know what to say to that, except it's the genius move to gaslight an entire generation of Christians that will probably take hold and be with us for far longer than Trump is on the political landscape.Speaker 2 (31:29):I am not fully convinced it's gaslighting. On one hand it is. They're saying one thing, doing another. It absolutely is by definition. And I think growing up in white evangelicalism, there is, at least for the men, I think an implicit belief, I don't even think it's explicit. It's becoming explicit that they get that past too. It functions on those passes, those senses of we don't have to hold up to accountability. And I think we see that in all the sexual abuse scandals. We see that in the narcissism of so many white evangelical pastors. There is this sense of, as long as we're in this system, there isn't accountability. And so you can say one thing and do another, and it doesn't matter. You have God's authority over you and therefore it's okay. And so I think there's something, I'm right there with you, it doesn't make any sense, but I think it's also quite consistent with the way that authority has been structured within thoseSpeaker 1 (33:14):Spaces that you said that I felt like, I don't know if you ever get your heartbeat right in your neck, but I had it right there. Oh, yeah. I think that feels true. Yeah, it's gaslighting, but also it's meant to be that way.Speaker 3 (33:39):Do you think that that's new math or is that at the inception? What do you attribute the origin of that? And I don't disagree with you, I'm just sitting here like, damn, okay, so where does that come from and how long has it been there?Speaker 2 (34:04):I don't know. I have guesses. I think, how do you enslave an entire people without something like that and then found literal denominations that are structured on these power and authority? It goes back to what you were saying at the beginning, Rebecca, it's about power and accountability supports power.Speaker 3 (34:50):Yeah. Have you read The Color of Compromise?Speaker 2 (34:59):There's a documentary by that same name, right? The filmSpeaker 3 (35:02):There might beSpeaker 2 (35:05):See the film. Yeah.Speaker 3 (35:07):So he makes a comment in the book. He is writing this chapter about sort of the origins of the country and the country is as the colonies are being formed before it is a country, the colonists are in this sort of public debate about slavery and Christianity. And at least in tissie's research, there's sort of this group of colonists who come to the United States or what will become the US for the sake of proselytizing, evangelizing who they term savage, native and then enslaved Africans. And they're having this public conversation about does the conversion of a native or an African to Christianity remove them from slavery, essentially? Can you theologically own someone who's a profess child of God?(36:32):And Tse says that the origin of that debate has to do with an old English law that said that you can't enslave someone who is of the faith. And I remember reading that and thinking to myself, there's something wrong with the logic that you think you have the right to own any human being regardless of their faith belief system or not. There's something wrong with the premise in general that you believe as another human being, you have the right to own or exercise dominion over another human soul. So those are the things that go across my mind as I listen to you talk and propose the notion that this issue has been there, this flaw in the thinking has been there from the beginning.Speaker 1 (37:40):I was just thinking, I am reading this book by Paola Ramos about defectors and how Latinos in the US have moved to the far right, and she makes a case that the faith of the Spaniards told them that in order to achieve superiority, they should basically make babies with the indigenous peoples of the Americas. And they went about and did that. And then I know we always think popular literature, the United States, oh, India has this caste system. That's what people say, but really Latin America has a really complex caste system too. And to which after they brought over, and Rebecca and I know Matthias, you guys know this, but after they brought over stole African human bodies, a majority of them came Latin America, what we know as Latin America, they didn't come here to the United States to the continental us. And so then you have this alliance then between, and I'll bring it back to politics between these mixed Spaniards with indigenous folks also in enslaving Africans.(38:56):So then you get to our political commentary and you're recruiting Latinos then to join the Evangelical white church movement. And they've often been demonized and excluded in spaces because of citizenship, which adds its own complexity where African-Americans, now they have citizenship right now on the current day, but then you have these Latinos that it can be born or they're brought over on daca. So then you have this complexity where not only is there this historical century hating of African-Americans and black folks in Latino culture, but you also have this sense of that to get ahead, you have to align with white folks to come against African-Americans. You have all of that in the mix, and also then you also have to deny yourself and the fact that you have African heritage and indigenous heritage, so it's this huge mind fuck, right? How do you make sense of that colonial jargon in the political landscape? And then how does a Latino think, how do they actually encounter the nuance of their humanity and all of that, but complexly set up by the Spanish who said, we're going to enslave this X people group. In the meantime, we'll just mix our mix with this certain race, but the white people will be more dominant. And so you see that all comes into the United States politic and who gets to be human and who gets not to be human.Speaker 3 (40:44):I mean, in some ways, Daniel, you're pointing out that, and I think this goes back to math's point of several minutes ago, none of this is new under the sun. All of this is just current day manifestations or reenactments of a racialized dynamic that's been in play since forever, since even before maybe even the American colonies, right? Because what happened in terms of the transatlantic slave trade in Latin America predates some of that.Speaker 2 (41:18):Yeah. I mean, I think about England colonizing a huge portion of the world under the name of their faith that requires quite a distancing from accountability in humanity. Then you get an extreme fringe of those folks starting their own colonies.Speaker 3 (41:47):I mean, it does make me think, and my Pentecostalism is about the show, but it does make me think that there's something about this whole dynamic that's starting to feel really ancient and very old patterns that have been in place, and to me suggests from a spiritual standpoint, an enemy that is organized and intentional, and I have begun to wonder less than a week out from the election, what's the game plan if the election doesn't go the way I hope it does? What happens if America decides to give into its lesser urges as it has done in the past, and choose a path that is contrary and antithetical to its ideals what we're going to do? I ask that not even from a practical standpoint as much as spiritually speaking, how am I going to breathe and how am I going to make meaning of what you do with a world where that's the reality? We were talking before we got on air about the rally in Times Square and we can rail against it all we want, but there was hundreds of thousands of people there saying, yeah, let's do that.Speaker 4 (43:40):That scares me. AndSpeaker 2 (43:52):It doesn't go away. Even if Harris wins, I think your question of what do we do if Trump wins? It's a sobering question. It's a terrifying question, but I think it's also a very similar question of even if she wins, what do we do? What do we do? These people don't magically disappear.Speaker 1 (44:30):We're going to have to do no matter what. I just feel like there has to be some sort of, like you said, Mathias, just processing of the grief of our past because it's chasing us. You can hear it in each of our stories. It is just chasing us what we've been a part of, what we've been asked to give up. And I think America, well, the United States, not America, but the United States is terrified of what it would mean if it had to face that kind of grief.Speaker 3 (45:23):I don't know about that, Danielle, because for there to be terror would mean that you have had some conscious admission that something is gravely wrong. And I'm not even sure if we're there yet. I think America as a whole has a whole lot of defense mechanisms and coping mechanisms in place, so they never even have to get that far. And I don't know what you call that, what comes before the terror, right? Because terror would mean some part of you has admitted something, and I just don't know if we're there. And that's just me meandering through a thought process. ButSpeaker 1 (46:19):Oh, that's scary too, right? I think you're probably right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think we're going to bump up against our time. I know, Mathias, you have something coming up too, but any final thoughts? I don't expect us to solve anything or wrap it up, butSpeaker 2 (46:47):I'm just noting how I'm feeling and there's something both sobering and grounding about this conversation. I don't think we've covered really any kind of necessarily new territory, but to continue to speak these things, it's so brain, but it's also like, okay, we can ground ourselves in these things though. These things are true and it's terrible, but when we ground ourselves, we have ground just, and that feels different from some of the up in the air anxiety I was feeling before coming to this coverage, just the general anxiety of the election that is so pervasive. So that's a shift.Speaker 3 (47:53):I think I found myself looking back a lot in recent days back to the history of the story of African hyphen Americans in the United States, back to some fundamental things that I learned about my faith early on. And I have a sense of needing to return to those things as part of grounding that regardless of what happens in the next week or the next several months or even the next six months, we have been here before as a country, as a people, and we have survived it, and we will do so again. If I think about the black national anthem, God of our weary years, God of our silent tears, and I have found myself needing to return to those traditions and those truths, and I think I'll stay there for as long as my mind and my body and my emotions will allow me to as a way of breathing through the next several days. I mean, talk to me on November 6th. That might be in a very different place, or January 6th or January 20th, but for today, I find myself looking back, I have some curiosity for each of you. What are those traditions for you, in your own spaces, in your family, in your culture, in your people? What are the things that have grounded you in the past, and can they ground you again going forward?Speaker 2 (49:43):I'm sitting here finding myself wanting to come up with some beautiful answer. And the reality is I don't know that I have a beautiful answer. It's a difficult task.Speaker 1 (50:00):Yeah. I mean, no, we're wrapping up. I can't give you anything clever except I think what comes to mind is I often just tell myself just the next hour, the next day, sometimes I don't even think about tomorrow. I tell myself, don't rush too much. You don't know what's in tomorrow. Today's going to be okay. So I kind of coach myself up like stay in the moment.Speaker 3 (50:38):And in all fairness, Danielle, your people, if you will, are facing a very different kind of threat under a Trump presidency than mine are, and that is, I'm firmly of the belief if he's going to come for one of us, eventually he will come for all of us. But I'm also very aware that the most pressing existential threat is coming against people of Latinx descent people who very well may be American citizens, are facing the potential reality that won't matter. And so your sense of blackness gay through the next hour, I'm good. I have a lot of respect for what these days are requiring of you. Thank you.Speaker 1 (51:43):Thanks for hopping on here with me, guys.Speaker 2 (51:47):Thank you.   Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Trigger Warning: Proceed only if you are comfortable with potentially sensitive topics.This is not psychological advice, service, or prescriptive treatment for anxiety or depression. The content related to descriptions of depression, anxiety, or despair may be upsetting or triggering, but are clearly not exhaustive. If you should feel symptoms of depression and/or anxiety, please seek professional mental health services, or contact (in Kitsap County) Kitsap Mobile Crisis Team at  1-888-910-0416. The line is staffed by professionals who are trained to determine the level of crisis services needed. Depending on the need, this may include dispatching the KMHS Mobile Crisis Outreach Team for emergency assessment. Danielle  (00:26):Welcome to the Rise podcast, conversations on faith, race, justice, gender, and spirituality. This is a part two of our season five opener, which was review and recap of the past year, and also engaging some questions around humanity, the election, and how do we see our neighbor? We are going to be hearing from a couple of organizers who have been in my county, Kitsap County for more than a decade. You're going to hear some of their experiences, some of what they've gone through, as well as a few other folks who are giving their response to the questions we posed last week. I've been doing a lot of listening. This isn't an endorsement for any candidate. This isn't a psychological advice, and this isn't a prescription for how you should vote. Voting is a right. It's something we can participate in. It's a way to participate in our system.  A lot of folks are swinging wildly between two pendulums. There's the thought of my vote doesn't matter and I'm not going to vote, or I'm going to vote for X person as a protest vote. These are all of your rights. You have the right to do. So. I've been thinking a lot about change and what does change mean? How do we want to see change come about, and what does long-term change really look like? I can't speak from an electoral politics standpoint because I'm not an elected official and I don't plan to be anytime soon. I can speak as a person, a mother, a wife, a partner, a colleague, a friend, and a community member. And what I can say is people powered movements are what I have seen from the ground up, bring change in communities. This isn't unlike what happens in our bodies from a psychological experience in my own body. Change doesn't come from merely thinking about it. It comes from the ground up in my body. It comes from addressing the feelings, paying attention to my body, and becoming a more integrated person. I would challenge all of us to look around and what are the people powered movements for social change that we desire, and what are the ways our body is talking to us and how if we listen, will it inform us where we stand on many of these different issues?  This brings me to another sensitive topic. The topic of how we are feeling, how we are doing in the sociopolitical climate. We're living in these United States. I can say that for myself in my own experience, my anxiety is heightened overall and feelings that I can keep at bay with regular normal coping mechanisms such as exercise. It takes me a little bit more and I have to offer myself a lot more grace in the process. I encourage you no matter where you are, to engage these topics with grace towards your own self, towards your neighbor, towards your family, and towards whoever's in your proximity. We won't get things done overnight. That's not how change works. Change is a process. It is for us as individuals, and it is for us as a collective society. So hang in there. If you need help, get the help you need.  Maybe it's a mental health counselor, maybe it's a spiritual advisor. Maybe it's your pastor, maybe it's your friend. Maybe it's someone in your community that you look up to, like a mentor, or maybe you just need to sit down with your friends and have a good old fashioned dinner and drinks and put your phones away. Whatever the help you need is, it's important that you seek out that help and that support. The goal isn't to be perfect. It isn't to be fixed. The goal is to be in our process and getting what we need so each day we can show up for ourselves and those in our community. We're going to jump into the conversation and voices from across the country. We are all different and we're not meant to be the same. I hope you find pieces of you in each of their stories.  Speaker 2 (04:37):Hi, this is Raquel Jarek and I'm coming to you from Bloomington, Minnesota, which is a suburb in the Minneapolis area. I teach astronomy for work to college students in downtown Minneapolis and am an aerospace engineer and was raised in a very Christian home. And I'm still a practicing Christian in many ways, and I make space for people with different political views in all kinds of moments in my life. I do it at my work with students because I have a variety of people in my classes. I'm actually challenging them to vote and to even investigate the two major political candidates for president on what they view of science and space and how they would support NASA or space exploration. And I get to know my students pretty well in person, especially not as much with my online students, but I want to make space and have a comfortable room where people can share a little bit of how they feel, but also not be offensive to people with a variety of opinions in the room.  Speaker 2 (05:44):And then there's a variety of opinions in my family on my side of the family and my in-laws and which candidates they support and which parties they affiliate with. I want to be a person who is about supporting different opinions and being able to be loving and welcoming to anyone in any opinion. And sometimes that can be difficult when people have conflicting views in the room. I think you might need to keep the conversation more surface level and fun and in smaller conversations maybe you can dive into what they think more. But that can be really challenging to go deep with people who are very opposite opinions. At the same time, I like to have challenging conversations about politics and religion, and I think being open to those conversations whenever those topics come up is good. And then also just remember to be kind. And I think that's definitely easier to do in person than online or in a social media space, but that face-to-face contact does bring out more humanity and more kindness in people. So I hope that helps and that people can make more time and space to treat others kindly and hear opinions. Thanks.  Danielle (07:04):What were you going to say about the election?  Sarah  (07:08):Oh, I'm just feeling stressed about how close this election is. And it's just sort of extraordinary to me that given the many, many flaws in the Trump offering that people would still vote for him, that he's clearly mentally impaired and authoritarian, happy with dictators, mean-spirited and more of a mafia boss than a presidential candidate. And it's just extraordinary to me that, and I've always known people like that existed. It's just extraordinary to me that so many people would be planning to vote for him. So I am feeling a little stressed this morning,  Speaker 1 (07:55):Pam, I saw you nod your head.  Speaker 4 (07:58):Oh, I agree with everything that Sarah said. I have the same I deep, deep apprehensions and anxiety, and I think we're living in a landscape of anxiety just on the edge of a nation that at least half of it wants to go over that edge and pull the other half down with them. And it's really frightening. It's real. And I think I'm also frightened by people who are putting their heads in the sand. That's their response either out of just inconvenience or their terror response. So we're in a situation,  Speaker 1 (09:04):I agree. I feel that. I feel it come out in so many different ways. So for instance, as a licensed mental health therapist, something gets said like it was this last week where the former president is at a rally comments on anatomy. It gets blasted across the airwaves. And then what I notice that happens across my workspace is that people are triggered in their family relationships. They're triggered in with community. They're on heightened alert with a neighbor. I noticed this is last week we had two different really random requests. One was to adjust our fence because of the view. And if you know my yard, I live way out in the country, no one's looking. The second thing that happened to us was like, your car is parked at an odd angle sort of thing. So can we switch it around? I wasn't home. I got the message. And immediately when the message popped up, I felt so much anxiety and I was trying to talk myself off the ledge. I'm like, you can move this car, Danielle, when you go home, you can move this. This is fixable. You can come back from this. But the way I understand it is there's all my cup of navigating anxiety and uncertainties already up to here. So if my car's crooked somewhere, I'm freaking out.  Speaker 4 (10:44):I think that's happening all over the place. I mean, we saw an example yesterday afternoon with that involved pizza and chicken and people being much deeper issues and wounds being triggered by that, and we just have to take care of each other. I think we really, my priority is number one for the foreseeable future is public safety and how do we take care of each other when a lot of us can't call the people in the system that are supposed to give us support when they're not there, or they are part of what is creating problems and cruelty and insensitivity. So I mean, that's the only thing that's on my mind right now is public safety.  Speaker 1 (12:16):Sarah, thank you, Pam. Sarah, what comes to mind? We're kind of discussing the nature of political dialogue in our current climate. What do you see at stake if we do not vote?  Speaker 3 (12:31):Yeah, so that's what I've been thinking a lot about because I know there's a lot of people feeling that as a principled matter, they don't want to participate in voting, especially when the Biden administration has not been taking the ethical stand. We would like them to take on Gaza, for example. That's kind of a particularly heightened one, and it's really hard to feel like by voting somehow you're participating, you're condoning genocide. So I really get that and struggle with that myself. And here's where I come down is that I don't feel like any presidential candidate since I've started voting, which was a very long time ago, that any presidential candidate, except for when McGovern was voting, was running to get us out of Vietnam War, that there's been a presidential candidate that I was voting for with enthusiasm, we vote strategically. And that's one of the things the working family party is so good at.  Speaker 3 (13:35):They say we're voting strategically. We're voting to build power so that we as a movement can get things done. That doesn't mean the person who's running for president or any other office is our leader. We're not getting behind them as like, okay, all our loyalty is to this individual. We're voting strategically because this person in office is more likely to, number one, give us the space to build a social movement that can actually build power. And number two, to be swayed by the social movement to care when people show up and protest and people gone strike. And when people's movements do what they do so well, they care enough to then be willing to change policies. And so that's the way I feel about it. I don't feel like we have to believe that Kamala Harris and Tim Waltz are the people that we believe are the most, are everything we would hope for.  Speaker 3 (14:33):We just have to say, will this person allow social movements that care about poor people, that care about immigrants, they care about the environment, will they allow those social movements to progress? And we desperately need that progress. And on the other hand, if we end up with somebody like Trump, I mean, I think part of the appeal of Trump in the beginning, I mean when he ran the first time around, I think the appeal for a lot of people was they were just so angry at the system as it is that voting for Trump was throwing a bomb into the middle of government and seeing what landed because they didn't want to continue the status quo. And that felt more satisfying. Well, we kind of know what that looked like. We know who got hurt there. And we know also that this time around he has less to lose.  Speaker 3 (15:25):He doesn't have another term to run for, so he doesn't have to placate anybody. There is no group of people that he has to be concerned about except for the people who give him money and give him power. And so that's what the entire government will be oriented around is giving Donald Trump lots of flattery, lots of power and lots of money. And we know what that looks like in Russia because that's kind of what happened when the Berlin wall fell, is that they kind of sold off the whole government to a bunch of rich people, and it became just thoroughly corrupt. It's not like we don't have corruption now we do, but just wait until the whole government is privatized and Elon Musk owns this chunk and Peter tha owns this chunk, and it's like the rest of you, we don't care because we've got AI to do your job. Anyway,  Speaker 1 (16:24):Pam, thoughts or response?  Speaker 4 (16:28):Yeah, no, I think all of that is right on. We sort of can oscillate between the most local level, the national level, and global politics. So we're part of a very extraordinary zeitgeist of authoritarianism popping up in multiple countries. And I heard a podcast a week or so ago talking about authoritarianism in other countries, and they pointed out, and especially in Europe, that there very, very forceful, very strong, very loud, very visible, but they are not the majority in those countries. And I think because we see and hear more about authoritarianism on a daily basis and the ratcheting up of the horrible violent rhetoric that we can easily feel like we are the minority. And I don't know that we're a big majority. And I think that there's a lot of qualifications to what constitutes authoritarianism because it is not that it's not here already. When we talk about voting for democracy, this is about losing our democracy. Well, that's a very relative term. I mean, the country was not founded democratically, this country was taken. I think that's why we have such a hard time dealing with Palestine. If we have to acknowledge colonization and genocide and all of the injustices there, we might have to then look at our own situation and history. So I mean, again, it just travels back and forth between the different levels. And here in sbo, hobo is proud of its colonization and it's just terrified of losing a grip. So I think we are in an identity crisis. You can't imagine.  Speaker 3 (19:28):Yeah, I think that's right. And I think a lot of that identity, I think a lot of it is where racism really flowers is people are afraid that they lose their privilege and entitlement of being white, and then they're willing to listen to and be convinced by really horrible racist ideas. And I think part of that is also this crisis of a sense of belonging that people have been, the social institutions that used to keep us connected have withered away in so many different ways. And then during Covid, we were so isolated, and then people just got this, it's a psychological trauma of a kind to be that isolated. And so without a sense of belonging, instead of turning to one another and saying, let's figure out how we rebuild our community in ways that are real and authentic and empowering, people are turning against each other because that's sort of the reptilian brain taking over and saying fight or flight, and I'm going to fight these other, and that's going to give me a sense of belonging because then I'll be part of this little group that all is fighting against the other. So I do feel like it's an incredibly dangerous time. And I also feel like at a local level, there are solutions that are about building that sense of belonging that are within our reach.  Speaker 1 (21:12):Yeah, one thing I think from a psychological perspective is often we're like toddlers or babies. We do this process of, we do split a split, what's good, what's bad? And we're dependent on a caregiver to make meaning of the world for us so we can understand those splits and we can become hopefully an integrated adult that's able to manage the good and the bad feelings. And I think an more general term, which it's going to shortcut some understanding here, it's far more nuanced than what I'm saying, but we have a collective split. And in that collective split, for instance, when a toddler can't get their bad feelings out, if you've ever seen a toddler rage, they rage about a candy wrapper, they rage about, I can't get it. X. And what does that toddler need? Yes, they need the physical containment, the love and the care and support. They need boundaries.  Speaker 1 (22:20):Then they need a parent to talk to them, even if they can't understand it either through touch or interaction or play or verbally to make sense of why they had those big feelings to normalize the big feelings. So the toddler can say, oh, I'm not weird because I had these big feelings and here's where I can put them. Here's how I can process them. And in a sense, Trump I think has capitalized on the splitting of our collective conscious. And he said, you have bad feelings and let's put 'em over here. Let's find someone to blame. So this becomes, let's externalize our bad feelings about maybe what we're coming to realize. It gets centered around a critical race theory or it gets centered around Haitian immigrants. Let's put all of our bad feelings, the things we haven't been taught to metabolize as a society and let's throw 'em over here into these people.  Speaker 1 (23:19):And because there's a lot of folks that are listening to this rhetoric, it feels good not to have to deal with our own bad feelings about ourselves. I'm just going to be honest. When I feel shame about myself, I feel horrible. I do not like that. And sometimes I deal with it well, and sometimes I don't. But I depend on other figures in my life to bring that shame to them and say like, oh, what do I do about this? I feel bad. And how do I make amends? Or maybe I can't make amends. And if you can't make amends, you also have to deal with that. So I think these authoritarians capitalize on the psychological collective consciousness of a society that doesn't often know what to do with the bad feelings. Think about Germany, think about Israel, think about, I'm trying to think about what we've done in Mexico and South America with corporations, and now all of a sudden people migrating north.  Speaker 1 (24:24):Now they're bad. So what do we do with that construction of consciousness? And I agree, Sarah, really the only way to take a piece of that elephant is to start with your friend or your neighbor and to vote for people that seem to have more space for us to organize or to continue to make meaning with our neighbor that may be very aggressive and hostile to us. I mean, the mistake is on the other side, if I vote for this radical person, they're going to eliminate that bad neighbor somehow because they're not actually trying to convert the person they think is bad. They're trying to get rid of them, expel them permanently. And what I think I'm looking for is something, what SMA talks about, resum is where do we, and I think what you guys are saying is where's that space where we may know we don't like someone, but where there's actually space to figure it out. And with an authoritarian, there's never going to be that space. They're dependent on the hate.  Speaker 4 (25:32):That's right. Go ahead, Pam. And then people want to think that if Trump just doesn't get elected, we'll be okay. We will have dodged the literal bullet in many cases. But that's not true because like you're saying, Danielle, it's the divestment of our own intolerable parts. For whatever reason, they are intolerable to us onto the others, and our system is constructed such that we have to have others. Capitalism has to have others, we have to have racism. That's what makes it work so well for the people that it works well for. I think we need a national intervention, and I think that's what we're going toward in a dark sense.  Speaker 4 (26:49):But I would hope that we could start to get ourselves moving toward a national intervention and within a more positive framework. And how do we do that? How do we do that? You're talking about the hyper-local level and with neighbors and family. And at this point, I mean, some of our neighbors want to kill us, and that's not being hyperbolic. And we know that those sentiments are out there, but the sort of signs are being flashed everywhere to intimidate others rather than to put down those weapons, whatever form they take and sit down together to find some commonalities to just bring the temperature down. Right now, so many other people have been very alienated from numerous family members over these issues and can't not bring the issue of guns into this conversation because the weaponization of our society is a huge factor. I think it's a huge factor in why many politicians, political leaders don't step up more. I think it's why they don't confront the atrocities that are happening in front of us, whether it's in other countries or it's in our own backyard. I think the arming of America has really deformed our national character, and I think that's a large part of this identity crisis.  Speaker 3 (29:11):So yeah, I think what you said earlier about this being that the authoritarian, the group that really approves of that is a minority. And even when Trump won in 2016, he won by a minority of the popular vote. And we know the electoral college system is to blame there, but we are pretty clear that he doesn't have a majority and he still may win, but he doesn't have a majority. So I think it's really important to remember that there are the violent folks who are really in favor and really relish the idea of violence, but they are a relatively small minority way more than I would've hoped, but still. So then I think a lot of our challenge is how do we work with the people that are still in the middle? And I don't mean that they don't have opinions, it's that they are struggling with the nuances.  Speaker 3 (30:08):And I think there are a lot of those people, even though they're kind of hidden from the media, but they're struggling with the nuances, they're not sure who to vote for or whether to vote. And one of the things I keep seeing is Kamala Harris and other people asking for money, which I don't understand, they raise so much money already. And what I wish Kamala Harris would ask for is, I wish you would ask us for our vote, and I wish you would ask us to talk to somebody in our family or in our friendship circle who is struggling with knowing whether to vote or not or who to vote for and ask them for their vote. And I'm not talking about uncle, so-and-so who's clearly going to vote for Trump? What I'm talking about is the person who says, well, my vote doesn't matter. Or the person who says, I can't bring myself to vote for a candidate who hasn't stood up to what's going on in Gaza. And those are things that I sympathize with. I think there are people who have intelligence and real concern who are expressing those things. One of the things I just heard about is I don't, if you remember a while, a few elections back, there was a swap the vote thing going on where you could talk to somebody in a swing state  Speaker 3 (31:35):And say, Hey, I'll vote for a third party candidate, Jill Stein or Cornell West if you'll vote, given that you're in the swing state and your vote's going to really make a difference if you'll vote for Kamala Harris. So I'm getting ready to do that. I'm going to see if I can find one of my friends at Michigan who is struggling with that question around Gaza because I struggle with it too. And I think that Kamala Harris has shown she actually cares, even though we're not getting the kind of position we would like, I think she actually does care about human beings. I don't see any evidence of that from Trump. So I think we're better off if she wins in Gaza, we're better off with Gaza, and then we can continue our organizing work. So much of our work is really not about the elections.  Speaker 3 (32:27):It's about building the power of ordinary people through social movements. And that's what we need to be about. And that's also, I think the part besides the crisis of the other part of the crisis we're in is this crisis of inequality and hopelessness in a sense that no matter what I do, if I'm a young person, I may never be able to buy a house, or I may never be able to have children because I can't afford daycare. I mean, the death that people and people in the media, often the Democratic party often describe this as inflation and say, well, inflation is so much better, and therefore, why aren't you guys happy? It's like, well, I still can't afford a place to live. Why should I be happy? They're kind of not getting that. So the whole way our economy is functioning to pour huge amounts of money into the military industrial complex and into a whole new generation of nuclear weapons, and to allow the wealth to trickle up, not just trickle, but flow up to the top tiniest percentage and the rest of people to be struggling.  Speaker 3 (33:36):That whole way of organizing the economy I think is really important to remember how popular Bernie Sanders was when he was willing to call that out. And I think the Democratic Party was not having it. They kept him from actually winning the nomination, but he won enormous amounts of support. And some of those people were people that then turned around and voted for Trump. They wanted an outsider who was going to shake things up. I think we have to be ready to shake things up in terms of the economy in a way that's inclusive, that says we can have an economy that includes everyone, where everybody has an opportunity and not, we could have a better economy by deporting massive numbers of people. I think when you can have a political message, that's also an inclusive message and also a message of belonging, I think that's where we have an opportunity to actually combat this authoritarian bent.  Speaker 4 (34:36):I would add that we need more than messaging. We need action because the Democratic Party has been very good at messaging, inclusivity, the big tent, economic equity, healthcare. But then we look at what happens. And Sarah, you and I have been in this for decades, and we make just enough progress to keep the populace from exploding. I mean, one of the best educations, best parts of my political education was taking the training with cell deaf. Do you know them? Community Environmental Defense Fund? Yeah. Oh my God. So every election cycle, we hear the same songs. The Republicans say, well, we need to get the government out of our lives. We need to deregulate. We don't need these people. The government telling us what to do. We need to tell the government what to do. And then we hear the Democrats saying, yes, we need to make things equal and better for everybody, and we will be your guardians.  Speaker 4 (36:23):And over these decades, we have seen some progress, but really not enough. I mean, when you're talking about Bernie Sanders, I'm thinking about when I was a delegate in Philadelphia, a national delegate at the Democratic Convention. And the last night of the convention, which was when Hillary was being, oh, she'd already been nominated but finalized, and I was the whip for the Sanders delegates in the Washington state contingent. And they sent being the Democratic Committee, national Committee, they put a detail of seven plain clothes. I've got pictures and everything of this plain clothes, secret service, FBIA, and then the local law enforcement figures armed to encircle me. We had delegates from other Bernie delegates from other states who were also organized to express our democratic voices. But I think our faith in the system really needs a deep examination, and we need other parties. And the electoral college is its own thing, but this identity crisis has so many dimensions to it that the work that we have in front of us is very broad. And I'm not sure that the public in general understands that. I think they think it's about electing someone, putting them there, and then back to business as usual. And we can't go on like this. So in a way, even though it's so painful, it's so frightening, and it's so awful. I we're at a turning point, and that's a good thing. Unfortunately it doesn't feel very good,  Speaker 4 (39:04):But we have to do it right.  Speaker 3 (39:12):Danielle, I can jump in, but I was, I'm curious about what you think.  Speaker 1 (39:15):Well, I think it brings back to what I was asking you all about how do we see change happening in our society, both long-term and short term? And which leads me back to hearing Resum talk last year and then reading and listening to his books and some of his just Instagram reels and him talking about we got here over 400 years, and it really didn't start then either. It started with disgruntled folks over in Europe thinking the best way to do something about that was to go live in another place and then conquer that place. So it started centuries before this. And wait, how long have we been out of Jim Crow? Can anybody tell me how many years technically zero. I mean, Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated in 1950, what was it,  Speaker 3 (40:23):1967 I think, or 68. Okay.  Speaker 1 (40:28):I mean, just put that in context. You got four centuries and you got whatever drove those people to come here, grew up thinking these guys were the puritan citizens of the world that were looking for a new place. I really wasn't the case. So you got all of that, you honor, you immortalize Christopher Columbus who wrote prolifically and told stories prolifically about murder and rape and state sanctioned violence that set the tone. And this is a man we immortalized. So when I think about long-term, and I think about SMA talking about, he talks about each of us taking, when we begin to make a shift in our family, it being five generations out till that shift is maybe completed. So on some level, that makes me think we're all effed and on the other level, someone has to start it. We have to get going. And that's what I hear you all saying, like, okay, we have this huge dilemma. We are here, and I agree Sarah and Pam voting for the president. Again, you can get caught in that realm. If you vote for Trump, he's your savior. If you vote for Kamala, she's going to save us. Well, she's not going to save us.  Speaker 1 (42:05):Jill Stein can't save us, Cornell West, and I hope one of them are thinking they can, the alternatives to Trump. I fear maybe that narcissism is so deep that maybe there is some thought of that, but our people's movements, the things we do on our block and our street matter the most, and those have the potential to make long-term effects for my kids and short-term interventions, look at what happened in the school district here. I mean, they've gone back to using common threads and other things as a foundation because of what was set decades. Was that like two decades ago? Three decades? Two, yeah, two decades. But there is a sense that when you have someone severely corrupt and empowered and dictating tone, you literally can't get anywhere,  Speaker 3 (43:05):Right? Well, I think the time horizon question is really important. We do have hundreds of years of this history. We should remember that some of the people who came over came over because they were fleeing horrific conditions. I mean, you think about the Irish people who were trying to escape a famine, and you think about Jewish people trying to get away from pilgrims. I mean, it wasn't that everybody who came over to the US came over here because they thought they could kill a bunch of native people and therefore have a good life. I don't think that was the intent. What they did when they came over here varies tremendously. So I just think we want to keep the nuance in the story because part of the reason is because that's part of what we have to build on, is that today's refugees are not that different in many cases from the people who are escaping the Irish potato famine.  Speaker 3 (44:09):They're people who are suffering and looking for a way to survive and raise their families and work hard. And so we have that part of our story to build on too. So that's just one part. A second thing is that I think our social movements in the United States have gotten kind of swallowed up by the nonprofit industrial. We've thought we could get the changes we need and alleviate suffering by service providing within the current system. And part of the reason that that has been dominant within the nonprofit sector is because where the funding comes from, funding comes from very wealthy individuals and companies, not in all cases, but in a lot of cases want to or are willing to alleviate suffering, but they want to make sure the system stays intact, the system that continues to distribute wealth and power to a small sector of the population. Well, a social movement that is hobbled by having to stay within the existing mindset and the existing system can't be, can't take on the fundamental challenge of inequality and of extractive capitalism because it's too tied into it.  Speaker 3 (45:37):So social movements have got to become independent. And there are good examples out there. I've mentioned the working families party before. I'm not a member of it, but I'm a big admirer because they insist on independent power based on their membership. They will help a Democrat, for example, get elected, but then they'll hold that person accountable to their agenda and say, these are the things we will only endorse you if you do these, if you commit to these things, then they'll go out and work for 'em and help 'em get elected, and then they'll come back and say, did you do those things? And they'll check their record. So they're building a form of independent power. They're not the only one, but they're a good example of how, instead of just saying, okay, democratic Party will come out and we'll vote for your candidate. I mean voting, I think we should all vote. I think we should all vote. I think honestly, that we should vote to keep Trump out of power. And that means voting strategically, and that means voting for Harris.  Speaker 3 (46:34):But that doesn't have to be the focus of our work. The focus of our work should be on building independent power that then holds the candidates accountable to us and does a bunch more in terms of building power. But that's just one of the ways that we need to be building power, is by having the wherewithal to be able to hold candidates accountable to our agenda. I mean, one of the things I used to do when I was at Yes magazine is around election season, we would put together a people's agenda. And this was an agenda of what do ordinary people want? And we figured that out, not just by what we wanted, but what the polls were seeing. And we could find things like a majority of large majority of Americans wanted nationalized healthcare. There was a poll that actually asked them that, and it was way over 50%. Neither democratic nor Republican parties were willing to talk about that. And before Obamacare, when they were working under Clinton on healthcare reform, they excluded any of the single payer advocates from the room. They wouldn't even let them be in the conversation. So one thing after another or that people want reasonable gun control laws, they want reproductive freedoms. They want us to convert energy from fossil fuels to renewables. They wanted that for decades. I can tell you, I was doing this work 20 years ago and the polling numbers showed it. So we need to do more to say this is a people's agenda. This is a people's agenda locally who can represent us and carry this forward and statewide and nationally. This is what we, the people want,  Speaker 1 (48:23):Pam.  Speaker 4 (48:26):Yeah, and we need imagination. I think we're so conditioned to accept systems and there's structures that our default is just, oh, whatever that system says, this is how we do things. And Sarah's talking about movements that are outside largely of those systems, at least in terms of analyzing what works for us and what works against us. And of course, we can't be just isolated satellites. We exist within these systems. So it's the nuanced little travels back and forth. I think that will, well, we've seen it. I mean, take the school district. That was an enormous breakthrough. Huge. Huge. It works. Some of the tactics involved a lot of imagination.  Speaker 1 (49:56):Yeah, I was going to say that. I said, I think we have to realize and understand, I think you're naming this, that people are vastly ambivalent. And so both in the way we think, and I think the way our trauma has hit us as a society and personally, and so I think a lot of us want to engage new forms of organizing or being together as a community. And I think a lot of times at the same time, people aren't ready to do so. There's some comfort in doing it the old way. So I just think we're up against, we have to realize that we're in this complex social movement where we're both invited to understand and know where we came from. And like Sarah, you pointed out the nuance of how we got here. It's not just one story or the other story, but we're also comfortable, I think on both sides of the coin, whether you're liberal or conservative, there's a similarity and you're comfortable and holding that type binary.  Speaker 3 (51:06):You're comfortable, but you're also afraid, right? I mean, we get into the reptilian mindset because we feel so under attack, and then we go into our more simple way of thinking. And I think the other side that we need to be doing our best to work on is to soothe our own alarm and fear by supporting one another, but then by opening that up so that more and more people can have that sense of possibility and belonging and joy and celebration and all the things that can happen at a community level that start calming people's anxiety and giving them a sense of hope and giving them the sense that we as a community have possibilities and can exercise our imaginative power and can make things different because we actually can when we're together in a way that we really can't on our own.  Speaker 1 (52:07):Pam, now that we solve that problem,  Speaker 3 (52:17):Yay, let's go and vote.  Speaker 1 (52:24):I didn't. I mean, I think the temptation is to try to wrap it up, but we just can't, to be honest. This is a conversation that hopefully not just for a podcast, but hopefully it's ongoing with people in our actual proximity.  Speaker 4 (52:42):Well, for one thing, the election isn't going to be decided on November the fifth. I mean, this is probably going to be the longest election ever, at least in this country. So I think it's important to have our communities know that we are paying attention and we are present especially, I mean, did you see the day that, I think it was a couple days ago when Trump gave that rally and made all of those disgusting remarks about Arnold Palmer and so forth? The thing that I think really fueled him for that was that just before that rally, 49 of 67 county sheriffs in Pennsylvania met with him to endorse the Trump presidency. And so when we put that together with things like the pre-positioned fake electors and all of the mechanics that go into our electoral process, I think it's going to be a while. Until this is settled, the outcome is settled, and I think it's important for us to have a presence based in peace and non-violence and tolerance. And I think it's really going to test us.  Speaker 3 (54:52):I agree with you. I think it's going to be really tough in the swing states. I mean, luckily for Washington, I think we'll probably be less in the crosshairs, but I do agree it's going to be really tough. And four years ago, I was on the board of Free Speech tv. I'm still on the board, but I was doing a bunch of research for them to find local people in each of the swing states that they could interview to find out what was going on on the ground. Because I just felt like anybody who thinks that Trump is going to give way to peacefully to a victory on the other side is kidding themselves. He's made clear. He made clear then. But he really is made clear now, and I think because of January 6th, there's more awareness now that we really have to have some safeguards in place. I don't know that they're in place, but there's more awareness of that. So yeah, I think it's a really frightening prospect. And I agree with you, Pam, that being ready to hold each other up is going to be really important.  Speaker 5 (56:05):I feel like it's really hard not to villainize the people I come in contact with who vote the other way. The tension is really hard to hold. How do I take a strong stance for what I believe in without hating the people around me who disagree, especially if they hold contempt for me? And what I think a few months ago on a local neighborhood Facebook group, someone posted, she was asking a question of where she could get a yard sign for what's the non-majority party here? The post caught my eye and I debated whether I should check it out to see the 50 plus comments. But ultimately, my curiosity won and I scrolled through them to see insole after insole hurled at this woman, her gender, her intelligence, and even her spirituality all came under attack, all because she asked the question. Others told her she should have known better than to bring it up in the first place.  Speaker 5 (57:00):I have to confess, I thought the same thing. There have been moments I've considered putting a sign up in my own yard again for the party that is not the majority here, but when I consider the community challenges I've faced over the last few years, I shy away from doing it. I don't know if I could handle any more loss of community. I need people in my life. We all do. And there's not only the risk of losing potential neighborhood friends, there's also the risk of losing family. Last week as I pulled around to the back of my parents' home, the home where I grew up, I noticed a yard sign for the candidate I do not support, almost as if it was there just for me to see in a family that loves to talk about politics, as long as you agree, I am no longer invited, or do I desire to be a part of the conversations.  Speaker 5 (57:49):But the sign in the backyard, which couldn't be seen from the road was placed there only for family to see. It's a statement, a line in the sand. I tell my kids as they ask questions about the fact that me and their grandparents disagree that it's one of the greatest, most beautiful things about our country, that we get to have our own opinion on who we want to vote for, and that it's okay to disagree that we can love people who think differently than we do. I should probably also tell them at some point that sometimes that's really hard to do. It's hard for me to breathe and ground when the hair stands up on the back of my neck and I feel my fist clench when men at the kitchen and my office building laugh and told lies about the candidate I support knowing where I stand. It's hard to stay calm when my middle aged client throws out her party's buzzwords to test me, but I try to remember her humanity. I try to remember that her views are built by reporting that is insulated and circular, and that she's being told that she should be really afraid, and she is. And fear can make any of us want to fight. We're all only human.  Danielle (59:05):Thank you for listening to this episode of The Arise Podcast, conversations on Faith, race, justice, gender in the Church. I want to thank all of our contributors. They've done this as volunteers. I'm a volunteer. This has got started off all volunteer work and so appreciative of those who have joined our podcast. Please download, please subscribe, and please remember that we are part of the human race and to treat each other with kindness and respect.   Well, first I guess I would have to believe that there was or is an actual political dialogue taking place that I could potentially be a part of. And honestly, I'm not sure that I believe that.

Today's episode is an episode from almost two years ago where I talk about collective trauma and growth mindset. As I listened back to this episode recently, I was quick to realize the collective trauma we were experiencing two years ago as we clawed our way out of Covid still hasn't been healed. From where I'm sitting, people are still suffering in tremendous ways and as we approach what many consider to be the most disappointing and disheartening election season of our lives, the sense of instability and insecurity across the US cannot be overstated.   Given the state of the US and the world, I thought it would be helpful and supportive to revisit this episode so we can continue to move forward and see potential in our day-to-day lives, in spite of all the things we cannot control.   An article on collective trauma in Psychology Today states that collective trauma “can change the entire fabric of a community… In fact, collective trauma can impact relationships, alter policies and governmental processes, alter the way the society functions, and even change its social norms.”  Once we acknowledge that we are experiencing this and have been for years now, we can see how our mindsets have shifted to match this arduous cultural moment in history. In fact, it stands to reason that we have quite possibly (and very understandably) shifted our default mindset to a fixed mindset framework, instead of a growth mindset framework. Best-selling author, Carol Dweck, provides fantastic guidance around this terminology and topic. In this Greatest Hits episode, we explore why you might be defaulting to fixed mindset, how it's limiting you, and how to shift out of it to see more opportunities, potential & possibilities in your life - instead of defaulting to seeing obstacles & roadblocks. This isn't to say the obstacles aren't real. Things are hard. But let's uncover how to hold space for two truths: Things are hard.  You are resourceful and resilient and can make great things happen in your life.  Links mentioned: Attend my Influence & Ignite Retreat for Women Business Owners: shamelessmom.com/retreat Psychology Today article: What is Collective Trauma? Book: Mindset by Carol Dweck We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: https://shamelessmom.com/sponsor Interested in becoming a sponsor of the Shameless Mom Academy? Email our sales team at sales@adalystmedia.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This week, we go deep into trauma with Thomas Hübl, who developed the Collective Trauma Integration Process for working with individual, ancestral, and collective trauma. With the help of Thomas, hear our hosts unpack why, and how, we have to keep working on the solutions even as we are still experiencing the trauma of the climate crisis. Thomas Hübl, is a renowned teacher, author, and international facilitator who works within the complexity of systems and cultural change by integrating the core insights of the great wisdom traditions and mysticism with the discoveries of science.   NOTES AND RESOURCES   GUEST Thomas Hübl, Teacher, Author, and International Facilitator Website | Facebook | Instagram | LinkedIn | Twitter | YouTube | attuned   Please fill out our 2024 Listener Feedback Survey! Vote for Outrage + Optimism in the British Podcast Awards Listeners' Choice Category!   Learn more about the Paris Agreement.   It's official, we're a TED Audio Collective Podcast - Proof! Check out more podcasts from The TED Audio Collective   Please follow us on social media! Twitter | Instagram | LinkedIn

Parijat Deshpande is the founder and CEO of Ruvelle, the only trauma-informed wellness company specifically dedicated to improving high-risk pregnancy outcomes, reducing preterm birth, and supporting parents on the entire high-risk pregnancy journey. On a mission to end the high-risk pregnancy crisis, she has served and supported thousands of clients through her live events, one-on-one work, her bestselling book, Pregnancy Brain: A Mind-Body Approach to Stress Management During a High-Risk Pregnancy, and the Body Language Journal. I am thrilled to welcome Parijat back to the show as a second-time guest. I have watched her work evolve over the years since she was last on the show and I had a sense that now is just the right time to have her come back - this time to talk about traumatic stress and collective trauma.   Listen in to hear Parijat share: Her path to working in women's health and serving women who are enduring health trauma The significance of trauma-informed medical care and where we are currently going wrong without it What it's like for people with medical trauma to navigate the world without people understanding their experience How the pandemic created a situation of global collective trauma that we are still very much living in What needs to happen for us to heal from collective trauma When we don't have collective safety, how we can find support at any given moment by addressing our own physiological needs  How we have shifted from living in collective trauma to living in a collective functional freeze What trauma-sensitive medical care actually looks like Links mentioned: Connect with Parijat and Ruvelle: www.ruvelle.com Parijat and Ruvelle on IG We love the sponsors that make this show possible! You can always find all the special deals and codes for all our current sponsors on our website: https://shamelessmom.com/sponsor Interested in becoming a sponsor of the Shameless Mom Academy? Email our sales team at sales@adalystmedia.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices