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Fred & Rose West still haunt my nightmares to this day! Now if you don't know who they are then let me explain... they where the typical "couple next door". They were married, lived in a little house in England. Nothing out of the ordinary... until the day the news broke that ACTUALLY they lured, tortured, and killed 10+ young women and girls and had gotten away with it for yeeeeears!!! They had the the most powerful secret weapon.... Rose! Her super "sweet" female appearance utterly tricked victims into trusting her and her husband. And they got away with it for DECADES because of how damn sneaky their manipulation tactics where! And so as a young girl growing up in England, this always haunted me. I mean I DEFINITELY would have trusted her. At 13 years old, I was taught to be careful of the creepy man who is drooling in the corner of a room. I was NOT even remotely skeptical or suspicious of a sweet looking old lady! So that started my curiosity and absolute FASCINATION with psychopaths, sociopaths, narcissists and con-men! And so for yeeeeeears I read every book I could get my hands on! Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, John Wayne Gacy, Green river killer, Elaine Wuornos and Golden State Killer JUST to name a few! Why the HELL did they do it in the first place? How did they get away with it? What tactics did they use that TOTALLY fooled people? How did they get caught? And finally, what can little Lisa learn so that she would NEVER find herself in that nightmare? Because the truth is..... I DEFINITELY would have fell for it! And its still frikin happening today! I mean just take a look at the P.Diddy's or Jeffrey Epstein's of the world! Different method, same sad outcomes for many! And THAT ladies is why I am have invited on the EPIC #1 detective Paul Holes! You may know him from catching the Golden state killer (#HotforHoles even became a popular hashtag lol) but he is truly the expert to help tell us the sneaky tactics psychopaths, sociopaths and con-men use on their next victim. In this episode, you're gonna learn: - The chilling tactics predators use to isolate and lure their victims - How to heighten your situational awareness so you're never caught off-guard - The TRUTH about what makes someone a target and how you can avoid becoming one - And the psychology behind the predators that will blow your mind! If you've ever doubted your intuition or felt like you were being overly cautious, Paul is here to tell you, NOPE, you're not crazy. You have evolved abilities that can save your life, and it's time to trust that gut feeling! So grab a notepad because this episode is LOADED with life-saving insights that will empower you to live your life with confidence and security. Let's dive in, homie! I'm Lisa Bilyeu and welcome to Women of Impact. SHOWNOTES [00:00] Targeting Victims: Killer Strategies [11:17] Sneaky Offender Moves [18:08] How Predators Exploit Vulnerability [27:15] Self-Defense Tips in Dangerous Encounters: Fight or Play Dead! [48:39] MO and Signature in Criminal Behavior [55:26] Murder: Was It Planned or Not? [01:04:19] Avoiding Victimhood Mindset CHECK OUT OUR SPONSORS Audible: Sign up for a free 30-day trial at https://audible.com/WOI  Vital Proteins: Get 20% off by going to https://www.vitalproteins.com and entering promo code WOI at check out.  Quince: Check out Quince: https://quince.com/woi  Shopify: Sign up for your one-dollar-per-month trial period at https://shopify.com/lisa  Follow Paul Holes: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/paul.holes Podcasts: https://www.smalltowndicks.com/ & https://open.spotify.com/show/4k4K2WpZFxlTGoCzY40hJb Get your copy of “Unmasked”: https://a.co/d/4e2uQNx LISTEN TO WOMEN OF IMPACT AD FREE + BONUS EPISODES on APPLE PODCASTS:  apple.co/womenofimpact FOLLOW LISA: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lisabilyeu/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/lisabilyeu YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/womenofimpact Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lisa_bilyeu?lang=en Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode, we dig into the end of World War II to discuss Operation Paperclip, what began by the German government as an attempt to overturn their fortunes as they were losing the war, eventually became a brain drain as America (among others) tried to hire brilliant scientific minds like Wernher Von Braun away form the Nazi regime.  We also discuss Bob Berdella, pangolins, Bob Newhart and why Operation Paperclip was so very controversial in this man, we did WHAT? episode of the Family Plot Podcast!Note from Dean:  At some point, during the episode, I say something about Hitler not playing Risk when he was a kid.  It was a phrase from a MUCH longer bit by British comedian Suzy Izzard and I do not believe I properly credited him within the show itself, so I DEFINITELY want to credit him here.  Credit where credit is due and all that.Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/family-plot--4670465/support.

I'm not sure if Disney and Lucasfilm expected Skeleton Crew to be a hit or not. I don't really concern myself with numbers and percentages. I'm only concerned with the reception inside my own home.This might have brought my oldest daughter from "I don't care about Star Wars" to "Hey, this isn't that bad. When is the next episode?" I DEFINITELY didn't expect that, but I'm here for it! "This Could Be A Real Adventure" has the elements of a good story. I have to temper my expectations, because Lucasfilm can still screw things up with their awful politics (and I'm not talking about the taxation of trade routes in outlying star systems). The previous This is the Way Podcast episode released on our channel was a review. THIS is the recap and discussion episode where the host does a deep dive into the cast and crew, talks "actual" runtime and then scours each scene. It may end up being one of the longest ones, not just because we're introducing the entire cast and crew, but the episode was a long one, too. You still have time to join the next podcast with your input. If it's in response to the first episode, it will come BEFORE we talk episode two now that we've got the review and the discussion podcasts out of the way. If it's about the already released episode two, it will come AFTER we have our recap and discussion podcast for that episode, and I have the feeling that might actually come after episode three is available. Send email to ⁠⁠⁠thisisthewaypodcast@gmail.com⁠⁠⁠ and if you just want to send us a nice note, you can certainly do that via ⁠⁠⁠'X'⁠⁠⁠ (you know, Twitter) or ⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠ @ThisistheWayPod and there is even a version on ⁠⁠⁠YouTube you can share and leave your comments and like and subscribe⁠⁠⁠! May the Force be with us! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/thisistheway/support

Evelyn's Stage Performance Continues it be a big hit. By BradentonLarry - Listen to the ► Podcast at Steamy Stories. Evelyn directed the couple into another position. Now the man was lying on his back while his ‘wife' rode his cock, rather enthusiastically, while Evelyn sat on the man's face, grinding her pussy and clit on his mouth and watching the woman enjoy that fat cock. Don watched as Evelyn squeezed her own breasts, twisting her nipples, and then reached out to do the same to the woman across from her. Evelyn leaned forward and managed to get her mouth on one of the woman's nipples, which seemed to send the woman into another orgasm. Then, Evelyn was sitting back on the man's face, head thrown back and her hands squeezing her own tits tightly as her body rocked with her own first orgasm of the session.Don's cock throbbed and twitched, as if in sympathy with Evelyn's body. When the trio changed positions again, it was Evelyn's turn to lie on her back, her butt at the edge of the bed, as the man held her legs up and shoved his thick cock back into her pussy. At first the woman knelt on the bed next to Evelyn, making out with her and sucking on her tits, but then she moved up to kneel over Evelyn's face. Don watched as Evelyn grasped the woman's ass and held her in place so she could lick and suck at her clit and pussy, while the man fucked Don's lover hard and deep. Soon the woman was climaxing again, crying out loudly so everyone in the club noticed, and the man was shoving up into Evelyn with short violent strokes until he too was clearly coming. As he eventually drew out of Evelyn, a long, thick strand of cum hung between her pussy and the head of his cock. Evelyn said something to the woman who then quickly got down on her hands and knees at the end of the bed, first to suck the man's cock clean and then to bury her face in Evelyn's messy snatch, licking and sucking up all the cum he'd left there. Soon, Evelyn was sitting half up on the bed, her muscles clenching tight, as she held the woman's head in place while Evelyn's orgasm tore through her. For a long moment, Evelyn just lay back on the bed with a happy smile on her face, and then she sat up and looked out at the audience with a grin. Don grinned back at her, though he was pretty sure she couldn't see him. Still, when she mouthed, “One more?” he gave her an enthusiastic thumbs up. In any case, they had agreed she would give him a sign to let him know she was ready to leave, and she certainly hadn't given it. After Evelyn and her two playmates cleared that set, a couple of servitors came and straightened things up quickly, but without bothering to change the bed or anything. By the time Evelyn reappeared, only the big orgy on the circular bed and the couples in the dungeon set were still going at it. Don was downstairs, idly watching the orgy, when Evelyn came back on stage, this time entering the bus stop set. She had her hair in a couple of pigtails and was wearing a light sundress. She took a seat on the plastic bench against the wall, and waited, for a bus, supposedly, but really for her next set of playmates to join her. Soon two men joined her. There was quite a bit of pantomimed flirting and exaggerated come-hither looks before the men were standing in front of Evelyn having their cocks sucked. They had apparently left the door light set to yellow, because by the time Evelyn was on her hands and knees, though still in her sundress, getting spit-roasted, another guy poked his head in and decided to join in. By the time the scene had run its course, Evelyn had serviced six guys altogether, and a beautiful brown-skinned young woman with long, thick, black hair had come in to take over on the mattress. Don was happy to watch this woman enjoy herself while Evelyn got cleaned up and ready for round three. When Evelyn came back on stage, she was again wearing high heels, but this time they came with black boots that went almost all the way up her thighs. Her torso was wrapped in a shiny black bodice that left her crotch and tits exposed, and she was wearing black gloves that went up to the middle of her biceps. Her hair was now pulled back tightly into a ponytail, and she led a beautiful naked Asian woman with black hair hanging down to the middle of her back out and promptly began tying her to a frame that left her spread-eagled and vulnerable to anything Evelyn might inflict upon her. Evelyn spent the next hour teasing and tormenting this poor woman, who seemed to love every minute of it, even when she was begging Evelyn for release. Evelyn finally let the woman come, but only after she had stuffed a rather large butt plug and a big, shiny black dildo into their respective places, and fastened heavy nipple clamps to her nipples. Then, with only the command, “Come,” Evelyn reduced the woman to a shuddering, quivering display of ecstasy that went on for what seemed like several long minutes. Then Evelyn sat on a bench so the grateful woman could crawl across the floor on her hands and knees to lick and suck at Evelyn until she made her temporary mistress come. Finally, Evelyn came onto stage with the next bunch of five people to make use of the big circular bed. Two lucky men were accompanied by Evelyn and three women, who all came in naked and wasted no time in climbing onto the bed and getting acquainted. Soon it became rather hard for Don to keep track of Evelyn amid the confusion of heaving bodies. At one point, she was near the center of the bed, slowly turning with it, as she rode slowly up and down on a cock as several hands reached up to caress her body. At another, she was on her hands and knees near the edge, gliding past the front of the stage, making out with a girl lying on her back at right angles to Evelyn, while one of the men slowly, but intently fucked Evelyn from behind. They must have left the light on yellow, because while they played another five people came to join the party - three men and two women, this time. Don found a chair to get comfortable, but continued to resist touching his straining cock. He was a bit amused by all the men in the audience who were, and had been all night, watching Evelyn and bringing themselves to intense, squirting orgasms. He was, however, much more distracted by the women around him, moaning in orgasmic pleasure as they watched the shows before them. Eventually, with her hair a wild mess around her head, Evelyn broke free from the orgy on the bed and staggered to the front of the stage to give the agreed upon sign that she was ready to leave. Don went straight to the exit, expecting to have to wait for Evelyn to get cleaned up, but she met him right away, naked and carrying her clothes with her in a bundle. She had cum all over her and smelled deliciously of the sex she'd been having. “Hi there!” she grinned. Don caught her face in his hands and kissed her deeply and passionately. When he released her, she asked, “Did you enjoy the show?” “Fuck yes!” he laughed. “Let's go over by the pool and find someplace for the night.” “Good idea! I need to get cleaned up.” “Not quite yet,” Don smiled. “I'm going to add to your … makeup, first.” “Oh! Excellent!” she beamed. “You really had a good time?” “I did!” he laughed again. “Sorry I took so long. If we can't have sex, I want to make sure I'm ready to actually sleep.” “Good thinking,” Don grinned. “What was your favorite part?” she asked. “It was all very hot, but I have to admit the first one was probably my favorite,” Don said. “I liked the story you were telling.” “I knew you'd get it!” “What was your favorite part?” he asked. “Oh, that's easy,” she said, “this next bit!” Laughing, he said, “That doesn't count.” “Hum, well, that's really hard to say. There were high points in each scene. In the first one, for instance, I really liked having that guy, Dave, fucking me from behind while I went down on Julie. In the second, well, there was that first time I had three cocks in me at once. Then, when I let Tamiko come … that was hot! I came so many times during the last scene I couldn't say, really. Damn, I really have become a wild woman here, haven't I?” “Yeah, and I love it!” Don grinned. They had reached the poolside and quickly found a double-sized lounger. Evelyn dropped her clothes on the ground and sat down on the edge of the lounger, leaning back and spreading her legs in front of Don. “Damn! That's so tempting,” he breathed. “No touching!” she smiled up at him. “Just watch me as I touch myself. You liked watching those men fucking me, didn't you? It felt so good to have them in my pussy and ass, and to suck them, and to lick those sexy pussies and clits,” Evelyn said as her hands moved slowly over her body, cupping her breasts and then sliding over her taut belly down between her legs. “I kept thinking about how hard your cock must be as you were watching me up on that stage, fucking and getting fucked, sucking and licking, coming over and over.” She was simultaneously strumming her clit and fucking herself with several fingers. “I kept thinking how hot it was to have you watching me, watching me suck… and fuck… and all that cum on my face and tits… and… and… up inside me… God, Don, I'm going to come again. Give me your cum, Don!” Don couldn't restrain himself any longer. His iron-hard cock swelled in his hands and then erupted, spraying a geyser of hot cum all over Evelyn's naked body. It splattered all over her belly, across her tits and neck, and hit her chin. The second gout splashed over her lower belly and covered her fingers, getting pushed up into her pussy as she clenched upon herself on the lounger, her face scrunched up tightly as she came with him. Don staggered backward a bit and Evelyn fell back on the lounger with a heavy sigh. “Ugh,” she moaned. “I need to clean up, but I don't think I can move.” “Fuck it,” Don chuckled. “Let's just do it when we wake up.” “Seriously?” she laughed. “Okay.” “But you do have to move. We can't sleep like that.” “I'm not moving. You get your own,” she waved her hand in the air. When Don actually started to sit down on the next lounger over, though, she said, “Fine, fine, I'm moving!” They managed to spend the night spooned together, in a rather sticky mess, without violating the terms of Don's mission to not have physical-contact sex, and then enjoyed a leisurely bath in the pool in the morning. At the resort's wardrobery, they managed to find Evelyn a nice backpack for her pilgrimage, and then, with a long hug and a deep, loving kiss, she set off in quest of the Grove of Rati. “So, you were left alone again, in the sex resort where you couldn't actually have sex, for a year,” Toshia summed up. “Yeah, that's about the size of it.” “How did it go?” “Well, at the time it seemed very slow, but when it was over it didn't seem bad at all,” Don shrugged. “I did have a couple of visitors along the way. Both Nicole and Stephanie passed through the Resort before I was done.” “How were they doing?” “Okay. I found out that the watcher's council seemed to have something of a pattern in their assignments. A few personalized quests to start with and then a long-term test, like my sheriff's job or Evelyn's pilgrimage. Nicole had to find the Trans-Erosian Railway and ride it from end to end. She came through the Resort heading in the opposite direction from Evelyn, hoping to connect with that train. Stephanie came through very near the end of my year after spending a year in Rendezvous without having sex with any men.” “That sounds a lot easier than your task,” Toshia frowned. “That's what I said!” Don laughed. “She admitted it wasn't that difficult, but she was glad to get back to ‘proper fucking' as she called it. Oh, and I got to talk to India a few times, too. But mostly, I just kept myself busy watching other people and getting to know the ins and outs of the Resort. I fell into a pretty stable, comfortable routine. I was actually kind of surprised when I came back into my office after a 'patrol,' and suddenly found myself in that big courtyard at the Hall of the Crimson Mountain King. At that moment, I was mostly just happy that my staff, which I had left in the office, appeared a second later on the ground at my feet. Then I remembered that this meant I could have sex again!” Toshia chuckled, “Uh oh!” “Yeah,” Don laughed. “I got into and out of those showers in record time. Then I dove into that super orgy for a solid hour. The first girl I hooked up with was a thin young woman, probably about nineteen. I've never had such an intense passionate session of anonymous sex in my life. I was nice about it, of course, but I fucked the hell out of that girl.” “I'll bet!” Toshia laughed. “Did she object?” Don shook his head, “Not at all. But after I'd had my fun, I cleaned up and headed upstairs for my next mission.” Task Five: “Congratulations, Don, you're now more than halfway finished with your tasks,” Pamela almost smiled. “For your next assignment, we want you to find a familiar face. To be clear, we mean you must find someone you clearly recognize, and can put a name to, but whom you haven't seen previously in Eros.” “So, if I recognize my second-grade teacher but can't remember her name, that doesn't count?” “Exactly,” she nodded. “Do they have to remember who they are?” Don asked, thinking of all the people who seemed to have little or no memory of their non-Erosian existence. In particular, he recalled the stunning Price is Right model he had been so happy to meet on the beach outside Rendezvous. “No,” Pamela said. “We will be able to verify their identities to corroborate you.” “That's handy.” “We are aware that this particular task is largely out of your control and could take a very long time to complete. We are also, frankly, impressed with your efforts so far. So, we have decided to grant you some of the power you are seeking a bit early.” She gestured to a ring that was now on the table in front of Don. Picking it up, he thought it had the weight and look of white gold. He slipped it onto his left middle finger. Nothing happened. “You have to press it twice in quick succession to call up the menu.” Don pressed the ring twice with his thumb as if he were double-clicking the ring. Suddenly, floating a bit above the midrange of his visual field was a horizontal blue bar. There was one item, in white letters, on that bar: “Travel.” “Concentrate on the desired menu item to activate it,” Pamela went on. Don wasn't sure what he was supposed to be doing, but he focused intently on “Travel,” until a drop-down menu opened with the following list: Abbey of Records; Crimson Mountain - Porch; Elven Court; Gladys's Office; Grotto of Ishtar; Heolfor House; India's Home; Manor; Rendezvous - Beach; Rendezvous - Riverboat Dock; Resort; Shagbottom; Sisterhood Castle; Untamed Village; Witches' Glen; and, Wizard's Home. “Nice!” Don breathed. “When you visit a new location for which there is an established landmark it will automatically be added to your list,” Pamela continued to explain. “Before you select anything, I should add that you can dismiss the display at any time.” Don tried willing the menu and bar away and they promptly vanished. He called it up again and dismissed it, just for practice. “When you select a travel destination, the menu will automatically close when you arrive. With the exception of these offices, you will not be able to use the ring to travel when anyone else can see you. Well, anyone who doesn't have a similar ring or one that is higher in rank, that is. Also, when traveling to a location, you will arrive at the closest safe position to the landmark where no one can see your arrival.” “This is incredibly useful!” Don grinned. “It is,” Pamela nodded. “Do you have any questions about your task?” “Find someone I can name from outside Eros,” Don smiled. “Then report back here.” “Exactly,” Pamela said. “You should be able to manage all your own travel from now on.” “So, I just call up the menu, focus on “Travel,” then focus on a destination…“ Then suddenly Don found himself standing outside the Abbey of Records. "Whoa! Seriously?” Toshia gaped. “Yeah,” Don chuckled. “It's pretty cool. When I'm in Eros I can bop around like crazy. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a lot of fun.” “Damn!” “Well, I am restricted to the places I've already found, like in a video game with unlockable fast-travel points, but it's still massively useful. I'm thinking about setting off on a general exploration trip when I go back, to collect as many landmarks as I can. Stephanie probably has a lot more than I do. I know Evelyn's list is different from mine. She's got the Dark Labyrinth and a bunch of places she found on her pilgrimage, but not the Wizard's Home or Shagbottom, for instance.” “That must have made your task much easier.” “Well,” Don paused. “I'm sure it cut out a lot of time going from one place to another, but it still took a lot of time to find someone I recognized. I started out just working down the list of places, skipping Gladys's office, the Grotto of Ishtar, and India's home. I was at the Abbey of Records anyway, so I went in and asked Charlotte if she could help me out at all. Naturally, I had to go through the whole routine, which took quite a while, and, in the end, she got a lot more out of me than I did from her. She wasn't aware of anyone that I might recognize, but then I had known it was going to be a long shot anyway. I crossed that off my list of places to try. "I skipped the Crimson Mountain, figuring it would just take too damn long to try to comb through that orgy, or go looking for other rooms in that place, and went right to the elven court, Heolfor House, et cetera. It was kind of fun revisiting places and talking to people again. The Wizard and Madeleine, the Player, the Lady and Robert all say 'hi,' by the way. And Daphne says I'm to bend you over and fuck you hard in the ass.” “Oh my!” Toshia laughed, actually feeling her cheeks reddening a bit. “After working all the way down the list, with no luck, I went back to the Crimson Mountain. I walked around the big orgy for a while, then started exploring some of the other areas in the King's Hall. There are a lot of rooms in that sucker, but most of them were empty. When I didn't find any familiar faces, I started all over again, but I focused on just what I thought were the more likely prospects: the Manor, Rendezvous, the Resort, Shagbottom, and Crimson Mountain. Each visit to each one of them took quite a bit of time, plus, every time I got to the Resort or the Manor, I followed the protocols Evelyn and I had agreed on, so that took time. Anyway, it was only after I'd visited each of them for the third time that I found someone I recognized.” Don had found Rendezvous the most frustrating place to search. The strange, non-Euclidean geography of the relatively crowded city made it difficult to have any kind of established search pattern, and the size of the place served to impress upon him how difficult and potentially open-ended his current task actually was. In principle, he could wander Eros for years without being lucky enough to come across someone he recognized from the 'real' world. Wandering the winding, confusing streets of Rendezvous and prowling through its many, many buildings made his task more than a little depressing. On the other hand, there was no shortage of playful diversions to be had in that odd city, and Don was always finding something new to explore. So it was that on his fourth attempt to find someone, anyone, he recognized in Rendezvous that he came upon a lovely park set among the buildings but with a nice view over the lower city to the beach and the sea beyond. Don thought that whoever had designed, or set up, Rendezvous had done a particularly good job of including this park and putting it here. It was a pleasant early afternoon, with the usual blue sky adorned with a few fluffy white clouds. Here and there were couples and small groups playing on the grass, on benches, or, in at least one case, in a hammock. There were even a few people, like Don, just enjoying a walk through the park. Off to the left, on a low hill, was a gazebo where there seemed to be a nice little orgy going on. Don thought it would be a good idea to go have a look at the participants. It was one of his rules to whenever possible check out any group of more than three. But then a leggy brunette stood up and came down the gazebo's steps and began walking across the grass toward a small fountain. Her body was simply gorgeous, with firm muscles in her limbs and belly, full breasts, and, as Don saw as she got closer to the fountain, a stunning ass. She had long dark hair with hints of lighter, sun-bleached strands. Her shoulders were broad and there was something exquisitely confident in the way she sauntered over the lawn. Don decided the orgy could wait and proceeded to the fountain. He watched the beauty bathing with her back to him, enjoying the way the water ran over her body. He got to the fountain and splashed some water on his face and proceeded to give his own body a good rinsing off. All the while his eyes kept returning to the woman. Then she tossed her hair to the side, and Don caught a glimpse of her lovely, long neck. There was something about the combination of her exquisitely sculpted shoulder, the line of the side of her neck, and her jawline, which Don could only barely discern, that struck a deep chord in Don's memory. This woman had the body of a sex symbol, and Don suddenly felt like he had seen this sex symbol before. Then she happened to turn in the water, and Don saw her face. Her eyes were closed, and she was smiling slightly, happily. It was her cheekbones that did it. Don was sure he knew who she was. When she opened her vaguely Asian eyes and smiled at him, Don's heart leapt in his chest and he was certain. Don swallowed, for the first time in a long time in Eros flustered. He finally managed to say, “Pardon me for staring, but you're so very beautiful.” She laughed, “That's alright. I was checking you out, too.” Don was suddenly conscious of the fact that he was buck naked standing there talking to a gloriously naked Jessica Biel while sporting a serious erection. It took a second before it penetrated his brain that she was perfectly fine with it and was moving closer to him. “No fucking way!” Toshia almost yelled. “I swear,” Don replied. “The actress?!” “The one and only, in the flesh,” he nodded. Toshia studied Don's face, looking for the slightest indication that he was putting her on. “I am not kidding,” Don assured her. “Well, goddamn, now I really am jealous. She's one of the reasons I knew I liked women!” Don laughed, “I can say she's definitely one of the reasons I like women, too.” “Come here often?” she smiled at him with that beautiful toothsome smile and those laughing eyes of hers. Don realized she was just a little shorter than him. “Well, this is my first time to this fountain,” Don smiled, slowly feeling like he was regaining control of himself. Then she reached out to wrap her hand around his cock and Don knew he had very little control of anything at that moment. She chuckled a little and said, “What do you think of it so far?” “Well, it's definitely my favorite fountain at the moment,” Don said as he reached out to run his hands over her hips. His brain was screaming, Jessica Biel's hips! Jessica Biel's naked hips! Don did his best to power through, and asked, “How about you? Is this a favorite of yours?” She was now standing up against him, her perfect breasts brushing against his chest, her hand slowly stroking his cock, while Don's hands had slipped around to squeeze and caress her ass. She said, “Oh, no, I just woke up here. What a wonderful place!” “I DEFINITELY agree,” Don grinned. “Did you enjoy the gazebo?” Her eyes widened as she grinned back at him, “Oh my god, I did!” Don tried to think of another question, but then she was kissing him, and all coherent thought flew away. His hands were squeezing her tight ass as her tongue pushed eagerly into his mouth and her grip tightened on his very hard prick, but all Don could do was focus on kissing the gorgeous woman in front of him. Somehow, they made their way over to the edge of the fountain basin, and then Don urged her down until she was sitting on the stonework and he was kneeling in the grass. Her hands held his face, making sure he didn't stop kissing her until he pulled away with a smile, and said, “I'm not going anywhere.” Then Don leaned in and kissed the side of her long neck, finally setting aside her celebrity status and simply making love to her as the gorgeous, talented, warm, and very sensual woman she was. After lingering all too briefly over her perfect breasts, Don was soon on his hands and knees kissing his way slowly along the insides of her firm thighs. As his tongue ran over her moist lips and teased the sensitive tip of her clit, she sighed and leaned back a bit, pushing herself forward for him. Soon she was groaning and trembling with her orgasm as Don licked and sucked at her clit and fucked three fingers slowly in and out of her pussy. Don smiled up at her as she caught her breath, but then, with a playful laugh, she lunged forward and pushed him backward, sending him sprawling on his back in the grass as she quickly straddled him. She grinned down at him as she held him down with her left hand on his chest and used the other to get hold of his cock. Don just lay back and enjoyed the view as she rubbed the fat head of his organ between her lips and then pushed it up inside her. “Uh, that's better,” she purred as she sank down on Don, who groaned a little as he felt her warm pussy enveloping him in its tight, wet embrace. She proceeded to grind against him, rubbing her clit against his body while working his cock in and out of herself. Don reached up to cup her tits in his hands, gently squeezing them and brushing his thumbs over her erect nipples. “Tighter,” she murmured, as she worked her pelvis down against him. Don squeezed her breasts harder and pinched her nipples between his thumbs and forefingers. “Yes,” she nodded with closed eyes. She was rocking herself on Don intently, leaning back so that she was fully upright on top of him. The fingers of her right hand were now stroking her clit as she rode Don's cock. “Harder!” Don twisted her nipples and arched his back a bit, pushing up into her grasping pussy. “Fuck yes!” she said loudly, apparently oblivious to the fact that they were fucking there open in the middle of the park. Then she was coming again, shuddering and calling out, “Goddamn! Yes! Fuck! Fuck! Fuck!” Don just lay there, loving the way her pussy was squeezing and pulling at him, and lost in the spectacle of Jessica Biel climaxing on top of him. Then she was collapsing forward on him, kissing him passionately and deeply, while still rocking her pelvis against him. Don had automatically released her tits and was now squeezing her ass as she writhed against his body, fucking him enthusiastically. Don did his best to flex up into her in time with her motions, but she was definitely setting the pace, and soon she was coming yet again, biting down on his shoulder as her body clenched and spasmed on top of him. Don held onto her, caressing her back, as she slowly came down. She was kissing the side of his neck, and there was no way he was going to do anything to interrupt this moment. Then, abruptly, she pushed up and looked at him seriously, “You haven't come yet, have you?” “Uh, no, but…” She didn't give Don a chance to complete that thought, but quickly scrambled around until she was lying perpendicular to him so she could lean over him and suck his cock. With her hand wrapped tightly around the base, she moved her mouth up and down on his sex. Don felt her lips moving on him and her tongue massaging the length of his cock. He felt his sensitive head hitting the back of her throat. It was some of the most aggressive head he'd ever received, which, coupled with the circumstances of the entire situation, brought him to the brink in no time. He groaned loudly and shoved up into her mouth as his cock swelled in her fist and mouth and then erupted with a hot, jetting fountain of cum. Don lay there shuddering as his orgasm had its way with him and then as his new lover intently sucked the any remaining cum from him and swallowed it down. Don was grinning up at the sky, then there was a beautiful woman smiling down at him as she slipped her leg over his and caressed his chest. She said, “Damn, that was hot! By the way, my name is…” “Jessica, yes, I know,” Don smiled. Her eyes widened in alarm, “You recognize me?” “Yes, of course,” he nodded. “I'm Don, and I'm very happy to meet you!” “But… what the hell?” she looked at him intently with an expression of near panic. “This is real?” “Well, yes, I suppose so.” “What the hell?!” she repeated. “I thought this was all some crazy dream or something.” So, Don began explaining Eros to her as best he could. “My god,” she interrupted after a bit. “What have I done? I need to get back! My son…” “You have a son?” “Yes, of course, and a husband!” “Ah, I didn't know that,” Don frowned. He didn't bother to point out that she had still done nothing to move away from him. “I really thought you were single.” She rolled her eyes at him, “You must really be out of touch with the celebrity gossip.” “Well, yeah, that's probably true, but…” “I thought everyone knew I was married to Justin Timberlake.”A Task Leads to a weekend romp with Jessica Biel. “What the fuck?!” Toshia interrupted. “I would have heard about that!” “Yeah, I had pretty much the same reaction,” Don laughed. “But then I had a thought…” “Ah, Jessica, what year is it for you?” “What do you mean ‘for me'? It's 2019.” “Ah,” Don smiled. “It's just 2011 for me.” “What?!” she gaped at him. “That's crazy!” So, Don explained what he knew of time in Eros, ending with “It's crazy, I know, and I still have questions, but the good news is that while we're here time is moving very slowly in the ‘real' world. You can spend weeks here and then go back and no one will even notice that you've been gone.” “Seriously?” “It definitely seems to be the case,” Don nodded. “Does that help?” “I guess,” she admitted. “If I can get back and my son won't miss me, well, yeah, that helps.” “You'll go back automatically when you're satisfied, or bored,” Don smiled. “There's also a shortcut I can help you with, if you decide you're in a hurry.” “Hum,” she frowned thoughtfully. Don considered keeping his mouth shut, but couldn't help but ask, “And what about Justin?” “Oh, fuck him! I'm mad at him anyway,” she scowled. She explained that he had gotten too friendly with a pretty co-star, and apparently got caught by the paparazzi. “I know I'll forgive him. I love him, really, but it's just so goddamn frustrating… not to mention embarrassing. You probably think I'm crazy, but, honestly, that's the thing that's most annoying. We've both spent so much time in the spotlight, you'd think he'd know better. Asshole!” Don frowned in what he hoped was a sympathetic way. He was having a hard time imagining anyone out there in the ‘real' world stepping out, even a little, on Jessica Biel, but he was also painfully conscious of the fact that that very woman was now lying there naked in the grass with him after some truly intense sex. He didn't want to do or say anything to screw this up, including prompting her to defend her husband's honor, even a little. So, he kept his mouth shut. Ultimately, after a few long quiet moments, she seemed to reach a conclusion. Looking down at Don, she smiled and said, “I can go back whenever I want, you said, and no one will miss me if I stay a while?” “That's what I understand, and I can help you with getting back,” Don nodded. “And, what happens in Eros stays in Eros?” she grinned. Don noticed that her hand had found his reawakened cock again. “Certainly,” he grinned back. “In fact, there's no such thing as STDs or pregnancy here.” “That's good. Holy…! I completely forgot about those things!” “Yeah, apparently that's a side effect.” “Damn,” she laughed. “Well, then, Don, want to show a girl around some?” “And that's how I got to spend three days in Eros with Jessica Biel,” Don concluded, rather smugly, Toshia thought. “That's crazy!” Toshia laughed. “You lucky, lucky bastard! You're going to have to give me all the details next time we talk!” “Okay,” he smiled. “Oh, and apparently we need to keep an eye out for a series called The Sinner. Jess is particularly proud of that one.” “Oh, it's 'Jess' now, is it?” she grinned. “Okay, go on with your story. You've got two tasks left and it's almost time to meet Sarah.” “Okay, this won't take too long to finish up,” Don smiled. Chapter 11. Lords of Eros “You've reached the final stages of your trials, Don, and it's time we gave you some additional information,” Pamela said seriously. “You have not simply been being evaluated on whether or not you accomplished your tasks, but also on how you have accomplished them, how you have conducted yourself. The rings grant substantial power in Eros. Those who have them exercise quite a bit of authority in making this world into what they desire, and thereby shape the experience of everyone else in Eros. We watchers, as you call us, try as much as possible to refrain from interfering directly, and have followed this policy for some time. However, we do not want Eros to become a static environment. “It should instead be something that grows and changes with the interests and decisions of those to whom it matters most. That is, you and the others who have gone to such lengths to gain these rings. We concluded that we should bequeath dominion of this world to you and the others. We have, in effect, made the owners of the rings lords of Eros. This is a grave responsibility, and we cannot give such power to anyone who will not take it seriously.” Don frowned thoughtfully and said, “That makes sense.” “Throughout your time in Eros, with the possible exception of the unpleasantness with those ruffians by the river, you have exhibited patience and kindness in your dealings with others. When the Wizard asked you for help, you responded creatively and cheerfully.” “Well, he didn't really give us much choice,” Don smiled. “That's not true,” Pamela shook her head. “You could have resisted, or at the very least helped him grudgingly. Even when you fought your way through the Sisterhood to rescue Toshia, you went out of your way to disrupt their little culture as little as possible. You and Toshia consistently treated the people you met with respect. Your care and concern for your travelling companions was evident throughout your time in Eros. “When you were in Shagbottom, rather than simply ask for where to find Lady Primrose and then leave, you made friends. When you were sent into the untamed lands, you spent the time to learn about the tribes' ways and customs, and then adapted your approach accordingly. Over the course of a year in the Resort, when you were prevented from interacting with the guests in a directly sexual way, you consistently helped people find ways to enjoy themselves. For instance, there was this…” Suddenly there was, hovering over the table between them an extremely well-rendered holographic display of a scene at the Resort. Don and a young woman were sitting on a bench outside the Temple of Venus and Aphrodite. The woman was in her early twenties at the most and Don had found her outside the temple crying. She had just spent several hours in the orgy room, and then suddenly felt that she was doing something very wrong. This was the first time Don had encountered anything like this in Eros. He had only talked to her and then sat with her until she felt better. “She felt guilty about enjoying so much sex; so much,” Don explained. “She couldn't remember it, but I'm sure she was raised in a very repressive family, probably a religious fundamentalist one. I guess most of those folks who end up here just roll with it, but she had internalized the whole insane set of rules and thought of her healthy sexuality as depravity. She was too honest, too good a person, to just dive in and live with the hypocrisy.” “Did you say any of that to her?” Pamela asked. “No, that wouldn't have been helpful,” Don shook his head. “She just needed someone to listen and not tell her what to do for five minutes.” “You spent more than an hour and a half with her.” Don shrugged. “Then there was Ms. Biel,” Pamela smiled. “When she realized Eros wasn't just a dream and that she had been cheating on her husband, you talked her through it, helping her come to a happy understanding of her situation.” “Oh, yeah, Saint Don,” he laughed. “I was hoping to have a lot more sex with her.” “Of course, but there are many ways of going about meeting that end, and you chose a thoughtful and caring approach,” Pamela said. “I'm going over all of this to emphasize the kind of character we see in you Don and to stress that it is because of that character, more than the fact that you want the ring or have accomplished these tasks, that we are allowing you to continue onto the final two steps. You are worthy of the responsibility.” Don sat silently for a moment before saying, “Thank you.” Then, suddenly concerned, he asked, “Is Evelyn worthy? I don't mean that I think she might not be!” Pamela smiled again and said, “That is between her and us. Though I can tell you that she has already been given her sixth task.” Grinning, Don said, “Oh, excellent! But do you often decide someone will not continue?” “Often? No, but it does happen.” Don thought about Stephanie and Nicole and wondered if they would pass onto the next stage, or if they had already. Task Six. “For your next task, we require that you contribute something to Eros. This is to be a lasting feature of this world. You might think of this as a graduate project. For example, The Jungle Room was India's project in response to this task, and the Dark Labyrinth was built using the capability we'll be giving you.” “Okay, but…” Pamela anticipated his question, “Your ring has been upgraded so that you now have 'Builder' permissions.” Don looked at his ring, which now looked like a simple gold band. Pamela went on, “You'll see the 'Builder' option next to travel, but this is simply a mode you'll enter. How to actually build things and the limits of your ability are things we leave to you to discover. Do not be surprised, though, if people without rings seem to ignore you while you are in builder mode. They will know you're there and stay out of your way, but they will not be interested in what you're doing. When you dismiss that menu bar, you will exit the mode.” Don frowned and said, “I guess I'll work it out, then.” “That's the idea,” Pamela smiled. “Do you have any questions?” “Yes, actually. Can two of us collaborate?” “As long as there are two clearly distinct contributions to Eros at the end of things, yes.” “And we can do whatever we like and put it anywhere?” Pamela shook her head a bit, “No, you'll find that you can't build anywhere that someone else has also used, and we will be evaluating the value of your contribution. However, in regard to that last bit, we will be rather open-minded, and we have no reason to think you will do something we find unacceptable, particularly if you are working with Evelyn.” Don smiled broadly and said, “Thanks. I think I'm ready.” “Good luck, Don, and have fun.” He laughed, “Always!” Then he teleported himself to the Resort. “Wait, wait,” Toshia stopped him. “How is that supposed to work?” “I'm getting to that,” Don laughed. “Hold on… let me respond to this text real quick… okay, where was I?” More accurately, Don teleported himself to the Riverboat dock outside the Resort, and from there walked to the pool area, where he would look for Evelyn. It was late afternoon, and the poolside was populated by the usual cross section of naked or almost naked Resort guests, many of whom were enjoying some level of sexy play. It would be easy for Don to get distracted, but he really had hopes of reuniting with Evelyn on this visit. Sure enough, there she was! She emerged from the water with her dark hair flowing down over her strong shoulders and slowly moved toward the edge of the pool, more of her naked body coming into view with each step. Don was at about her four o'clock, so she didn't see him, but he was able to enjoy the sight of the water running over her skin as she waded into the shallower part of the pool. Her perfect breasts came into the air and Don realized he would soon be able to kiss those as well as all of her other delicious parts. Don was torn between shouting her name and breaking into a run to her and holding back to see what she might get up to without knowing he was watching her. When her perfect ass came into view, with the water streaming over it, Don decided that he had enough of watching her from any distance, and picked up his pace, but refrained from yelling and running. As he neared the corner of the pool, he watched her shake her hair out a bit. She was making her way over to a spot near a lounger where it looked like a blonde woman was enjoying the attention of two men. As Don rounded the corner, he saw that Evelyn was watching the threesome with her hands on her hips. He couldn't help but admire her ass as he drew closer. As he came up behind her, Don heard her saying, “That's it, Raj, lick that clitty. Save some of that tongue action for me, though.” “Maybe I can help you with some of that tongue action,” Don offered. Evelyn turned a bit and looked over her shoulder with a smile, which broke into a wide grin as she recognized Don. In another second they were in each other's arms, kissing passionately. Having her warm, though damp, body in his arms lifted Don into a nearly delirious state of delight. Kissing her again had his heart racing and head spinning. Then Evelyn was turning and drawing him with her onto the lounger next to the one being used by the threesome she had been coaching. Their kiss continued as she pulled him down on top of her. She parted her legs for him and then he was inside her, as if this were what their bodies automatically did, and it certainly felt as if that was what they should do. Don kept kissing her deeply, with all the passion of his pounding heart, as her hands squeezed his ass and pulled him into her, wordlessly demanding that he fuck her. Don's hands had slipped under Evelyn's body to hold her shoulders, holding her in place so he could drive into her. Her legs were wrapped around his, helping her work her body against him. He could feel her breasts pressed hard against his chest as her pussy squeezed and pulled on his cock. Their bodies, drawn taut by their lust as well as their time adventuring in Eros, strained together, needing each other. Only when she began to come, did Evelyn break their kiss, her head falling back as she began to shudder beneath him. Then she was burying her face in Don's neck as her body clenched around him. Shaking and groaning, she clutched at him, her nails digging into his back and her legs holding him deep inside her. Don shoved himself into her as hard as he could and then felt his body erupting inside her. He ground himself into her wildly, instinctively, as his cock swelled and filled her pussy with his hot cum. Don only gradually became aware that he was still rocking slowly in and out of Evelyn and that she was kissing his neck. When he drew back a bit to smile down at her, she grabbed his head in her hands and said, “Let's never do that again!” “Damn, I thought it was pretty good,” he smirked. “Ass!” she scowled and then pulled him down to kiss her again. When she let him up again, she said, “You're mine, remember? No more wandering off!” “Agreed,” he nodded seriously. “And I love you too.” “You better!” she smiled. “This must be Don, I take it,” said the blonde from the next lounger. Don turned to see that the young woman, who had a very nice hourglass shape and full breasts, was now lying with her head on the belly of a muscular young black man with a large, thick cock, which the blonde was idly stroking. The cock was still leaking a bit of cum, though most of that seemed to have been deposited on the woman's cheek and forehead. An older gentleman, who Don presumed must be Raj, had the blonde's upper leg raised so he could push his cock into her from behind. Evelyn laughed and said, “Whatever gave you that idea?” “Pleased to meet you,” Don smiled. “No, you keep fucking me,” Evelyn said, pulling Don into her with her legs. “Yes, Princess, this is Don. Don, this is Princess Lavinia, and that fellow with the big cock is Pete, and that's Raj.” Don was happy to keep moving slowly in and out of Evelyn's sweet embrace, but had to ask, “‛Princess'?” “Yes, she's a princess,” Evelyn smiled. “So, show proper respect when you're fucking her later.” “Oh, well, of course,” Don laughed. “But…” “No, no, I want more of your cock before we start sharing stories,” Evelyn ruled. “Well, if that's the way it has to be,” Don smirked as he shoved up into her harder for emphasis. “Yes, that is exactly the way it has to be!” Evelyn grinned and pulled his head down so she could kiss him again. After Evelyn had three more orgasms, and after they had taken a break in the pool, Evelyn suggested it was time for Don to get to know Lavinia a bit better so she could have some fun with “the boys,” Pete and Raj. Don demonstrated that Raj wasn't the only one who knew who to go down on a princess, and then fucked Lavinia from behind, her generous ass up in the air as she leaned over the side of the lounger so both she and Don could watch Evelyn with the boys. As they first started watching, Evelyn was getting spit-roasted, Pete fucking her from behind with his long, thick cock and Raj kneeling in front of her so she could deep throat him. Then, though, Evelyn had Raj get down on the lounger so she could ride his cock and Pete could fuck her ass. Raj did his best to shove up into Evelyn in time with the rough fucking Pete was giving her, but the event was dominated by the big black cock reaming petite Evelyn's tight ass. After Lavinia came, her fingers rubbing her clit furiously while Don fucked her, Don moved over to offer Evelyn his slippery cock to suck. Soon Evelyn was coming in wave after wave of muscle clenching pleasure and three cocks were pumping cum into her. Only after she had come down and all the men gently disengaged, did Evelyn tell her story … well, part of it. She was lying back against Don with his arms wrapped around her. Pete and Raj had gone back to the lounger with Lavinia. The sun was setting, and twilight was spreading rapidly. “After I got back from my pilgrimage… I'll tell you about that later, lover,” she patted Don's arm and smiled up at him. “I was sent to the Kingdom of Argent with instructions to help the ruler with his problem. It turns out that someone had abducted Princess Lavinia and he needed a champion to get her back.” “Oh, nice!” Don grinned. “So, they gave me a suit of armor, a sword, and a horse, and sent me off to what they call the Bandit Lands, where I needed to rescue Lavinia from the bandit chief, Rolando. I met some resistance along the way, but, as soon as I said I was looking for Rolando, anyone I met just pointed out the way and left me alone. Sure, I made a couple of stops along the way… A girl has needs, you know.” Don chuckled, kissed the top of her head, and said, “I do, indeed.” “But it didn't take long to get to Castle Badass. No, I'm serious, that's what they called it!” Lavinia raised her head from Raj's lap and said, in a noticeably changed tone, “'Tis true!” “So, I get to Castle Badass about noon, and say I'm there to see Rolando, and they let me in to this big old courtyard. It reminded me of the arena in Gladiator, but not so big, of course, but it was all sand. I got off my horse and tied him up to a post near the gate I'd come through and walked into the center of the courtyard. Then, on this balcony in front of me, out comes this tall guy with long black hair, and says, 'Welcome, fair lady.'” Evelyn's voice dropped in pitch and adopted a somewhat Spanish accent when quoting the man. She resumed her normal voice as she continued with, “I was a bit surprised by so polite a greeting, but I said I was there to retrieve the princess. He just laughed, and then I saw that there were a lot of other men, and some women, watching me from other balconies and windows around the courtyard. They were all laughing too. "Rolando - the tall guy turned out to be Rolando - said, 'This princess?' and he pulled Lavinia here out to stand next to him. She was wearing a collar and Rolando was holding the leash tied to it. I said, 'Well, if she's Princess Lavinia, then yes.' He said, 'She's been a lot of fun for us. What kind of fun will you give us in exchange?' "I thought about offering sex. Rolando was good looking, and I was horny, but I guessed it was unlikely that they were going to give up Lavinia for just one fuck session. Maybe I could offer sex with all of them, but there were a LOT of them…” “There were!” Lavinia chimed in, “and not all of them are as polite as Rolando, believe me!” “You loved it and you know it,” Evelyn chided the princess with a laugh. “Anyway, I also thought it would be a waste of that nice suit of armor. It really was nice! It was surprisingly light and easy to move in. Not much protection for the crotch, to be honest, but that made it easy to fuck in. Yes, of course, I tested that. You would have too!” “Certainly,” Don laughed. “So, anyway, I said something like, 'If you give her up, I won't kick all your asses.'” “Really?” chuckled Don. “'Tis true!” Lavinia chimed in again. “She was so brave!” “Aww, thanks, babe,” Evelyn said. “Rolando said, 'All our asses? That sounds exhausting, and unlikely. How about, you defeat my best fighters and I'll give you the princess?' I agreed, and then had to fight seven of his fighters. I had the sword, but, honestly, I was better with the staff and didn't really feel like killing anyone, so I just fought them with the staff. It went pretty quick, really. Like you said, lover, when you just decide that you can do whatever you need to here, it works out really well. A couple of them were a bit challenging, especially this one woman - who was really hot, by the way - but I won.” “She was amazing!” Lavinia grinned, Raj's hard, slippery cock in one hand and Pete's monster in the other. “Everyone, well, everyone minus seven, applauded and cheered and Rolando invited me in to congratulate me and give me Lavinia. I was pretty happy to let Rolando congratulate me several times, if you know what I mean.” “He made me watch,” Lavinia pouted. Evelyn laughed, “You mean he made you just watch. Anyway, he kept his word and gave Lavinia a horse and sent us on our way. On the road back to Argent, Lavinia insisted on showing her gratitude. She was very grateful!” “I still am!” Lavinia smiled. “They were always at me, never giving me any rest, and so rude! Well, not Rolando, but still, I was exhausted. You're my hero!” “Aww, you're sweet. So, when we got back to the king, he agreed to let me take Lavinia with me for a few days.” “Damn,” Don smiled. “That's quite the adventure!” “I thought so, too,” Evelyn chuckled. “We need to get her back, but in the morning. What should we do tonight?” “We could try the Jungle Room,” Don suggested. It continued to be his favorite club at the Resort. “Okay, but at least one of us needs another bath, first,” Evelyn said as she struggled to get up off the lounger. Things were busier in the Jungle Room than they had been in a while, or at least on any of Don's more recent visits. Even India was there, dancing for a couple of guys who had pulled up an additional stool for the show. She smiled and waved to Don, but they were obliged to wait until she had finished dancing, which included swallowing a load of cum from each of the men, before she sauntered over to greet them properly. After receiving a hug and a lingering kiss, Don introduced the rest of the group, ending with Evelyn. “Oh, you are the beautiful Evelyn,” India smiled. “Don has told me about you. He is very much in love with you.” “Oh, is that what he told you?” Evelyn winked at Don. “No, but a woman can tell when a man is in love when he talks about the object of his affection.” Then India looked down at their hands, and said, “I see you have gold rings now. Congratulations. We should do something to celebrate. Would you enjoy a jungle orgy?” In another moment, they were told to wait there, while India went back to the dance area to give some instructions to the women and men she had working there. While she was gone, Evelyn pulled Don close to whisper, “Damn, you're right, lover! She's sexy as hell!” “I know, right?” Don grinned. “I wouldn't mind rocking her world,” Evelyn breathed. “I think you'll probably get your chance,” he chuckled. Soon, they all heard India's voice speaking in their ears, as if she were leaning in close and speaking quietly to each of them. She said, “Ladies and gentlemen, it is orgy night here in the jungle. Grab a partner or two and come to the big orgy bed in the middle of the jungle! If you don't want to play with us, find somewhere else to play, but for tonight everyone must be having sex to stay in the jungle.” “That's a very neat trick!” Evelyn said. “Maybe we'll be able to do that,” Don suggested. Then they were all following India's swaying backside as she led them toward the center of the Jungle Room, which had once again been extensively rearranged. The big orgy bed India had mentioned was at least as large as the big bed in the Manor's big bed room, and was raised off the floor of the jungle by three broad stone steps. Torches illuminated the clearing and gave the tableau a primitive ritualistic feeling. India crawled up onto the bed and out to its center, where she turned and beckoned Don, Evelyn, and their friends to join her. She greeted Evelyn with a deep, passionate kiss, but reached out to take hold of Don's cock. When India turned to kiss Don, Evelyn moved down to kiss the left side of India's neck and then to kiss and suck at her dark nipple. Evelyn's fingers slipped up between India's firm thighs and began stroking her moist lips. India sighed happily when Evelyn began to fuck her fingers slowly in and out of her. Without letting go of Don's extremely hard cock, India let him and Evelyn lower her onto her back on the bed. Don moved around so he was next to Evelyn over India's right side, kissing, b

hey guys! so I"m back with another episode for the free version of this podcast. I've got some VERY exciting news guys! the official Guild Of Music Supervisors Instagram account followed me back recently! SUPER freaking exciting guys! AND, they sent me a form that I filled out to volunteer for their next event in LA, so hopefully it works out & I'll get to volunteer for their next event in LA (which will happen next month) In other news, My episode of the Jersey Boys podcast is out. so that's exciting. I decided to go down the surf rock route this week again, but I threw in a NYC twist with this. & cool you guys off with a cooler song during the summertime. here's the link to where you can listen to it right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEHmM7IjSjE Please do follow me & reach out to me on Instagram & Tik Tok right here: https://www.tiktok.com/@iheartoldies https://www.instagram.com/iheartoldies/ PLEASE do also donate to the crowdfunding campaign for my next EP guys! these songs are STUPID good & I DEFINITELY want to release them! here's the link to where you can donate to this crowdfunding campaign for my next EP right here: https://gofund.me/4ed0ff92 also if you want to hear my new interview episodes where you get EXCLUSIVE behind the scenes details on all of these GREAT 60's records, here's the link to where you can find it right here: https://themillennialthrowbackmachine.supercast.com also, PLEASE, listen to my last EP guys! I'm REALLY hoping for more listens for this so that way, I'm not tempted to hire a PR company to enflate my listeners & possibly get my songs taken down for engaging in fraudulent streams. I don't have the money for that anyways, but it would be WAY better if you guys could stream my stuff so I can COMPLETELY avoid that situation. here's where you can do that: https://distrokid.com/hyperfollow/samlwilliams/an-old-soul-with-new--remiagined-things also PLEASE do check out the official Spotify & Youtube playlists for this podcast. this is where you'll hear the music that I talk about on my podcast. here are the links to those right here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1D9njanQQS4dsbeJkCQGco?si=b63b8698af2f4310&pt=6707a542c432e569ad2bfaeb38b25fe0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS1sYR7xky8&list=PL66sgq_GAmRcXy8yKZJfVmAD14HUYj7Nf also PLEASE do check out the new Redbubble Merch store for this podcast! I have been getting SUCH great feedback on this new podcast merch, but I want to what YOU guys think of this merch! here's the link to that right here: https://www.redbubble.com/shop/ap/158056341 if you REALLY liked my analysis on this week's song & you have NEVER heard of it before & your around my age/Millennial/Gen Z, you can definitely email me at samltwilli@icloud.com, you can also follow me & reach out to me on Instagram & Tik Tok @iheartoldies. I've been good guys, things have been happening with me, steps have been taken into the right direction, so hopefully I can keep this momentum going for myself. Hope you enjoy this week's songs & I'll be back one more time this month for another episode.

Join us for a lively SNL Hall of Fame Roundtable discussion with our esteemed panel of SNL aficionados - Darrin Patterson, Jamie Burwood, Victoria Franso, and Deremy Dove. We dive into the credentials of our SNL Hall of Fame nominees, including the impact of musical guest Paul Simon and iconic cast members like Dana Carvey and Bill Murray. We also ponder the lasting effects of writers like Paula Pell on the show's legacy and debate the influence of guests like Christopher Walken, Conan O'Brien, and John Belushi.Our spirited conversation takes us through the contributions of John Goodman, Jim Downey, and Candice Bergen, considering their potential induction into the SNL Hall of Fame. We reminisce about Goodman's versatile performances and chemistry with fellow cast members, Downey's daring comedic choices, and Bergen's groundbreaking legacy as a host. Throughout the discussion, we examine each nominee's lasting impact on SNL and the comedy landscape.As the debate heats up, we touch on the credentials of beloved cast members like Molly Shannon and Bill Murray, and consider their iconic characters and performances. We also discuss the underappreciated talents of Anna Gasteyer and Cheri O'Teri, and explore Darren's outside-the-box pick for his ballot, Jan Hooks. So, prepare to laugh and reminisce with us as we celebrate the legends who shaped SNL and consider who deserves a coveted spot in the SNL Hall of Fame.Transcript0:00:08 - Speaker 1It's the SNL Hall of Fame podcast with your host, Jamie Dube, Chief Librarian Thomas Senna, and featuring Matt Bardille At now. Curator of the Hall, Jamie Dube. 0:00:41 - Speaker 2Yes, hello and welcome to the SNL Hall of Fame Roundtable. This is the show in which we invite SNL Hall of Fame voters, in this case all former guests on this podcast. We invite those voters former guests to share their ballot and their thought process behind their choices. So this is always an interesting exercise to get the psyche of some of our voters. So in previous roundtables as well, we've had panelists even cut deals with each other for votes. We've had panelists change each other's minds. So there's going to be some like, willing and dealing. There's going to be a lot of that going on, maybe tonight, maybe with our esteemed panelists that we have on this particular SNL Hall of Fame Roundtable. So why don't we get to it? Let's introduce our wonderful panel And I'm doing something a little different just off the top. I'm going to let the listeners know that I'm doing a little icebreaker question to just kind of briefly get to know each of our panelists. So the question is which current cast member not including Kenan Thompson, because he's the obvious choice? So which current cast member not including Kenan Thompson could you see in the SNL Hall of Fame one day? So that's going to be our little icebreaker once I introduce our wonderful guests. So let's get started. Darren Patterson. Cohost of the SNL Nerds podcast. Darren, thank you so much for returning. You were on our Tom Hanks and Dana Carvey episode. Tom Hanks and SNL Hall of Famer. We'll see about Dana Carvey. Thank you so much, darren, for joining me today. 0:02:19 - Speaker 4Thanks for having me, Tom. This is fantastic. 0:02:21 - Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, we're excited. So the question is aside from Kenan Thompson, which current SNL cast member could you see in the SNL Hall of Fame one day? 0:02:32 - Speaker 4I can only pick one, because I kind of. 0:02:34 - Speaker 2Well, I don't know. Let's see. Well, who's your main one? 0:02:38 - Speaker 4The main one from this cast, I probably would say Colin Geo's. Just because he's been on this show for so long, he's written so many, he's written a ton of called-opens and he's Him and Che have been the longest running SNL Weekend Update anchors, news anchors to date. That's why I was thinking, just and Che probably the duo I could definitely see making it into the Hall of Fame. I could also see Boan making it into the Hall of Fame in the future. I mean, you know, first Asian cast member and he's made so many memorable, you know, snl Weekend Update. 0:03:27 - Speaker 2Oh, the classic instant play, the Iceberg sketch alone. 0:03:30 - Speaker 4Just exactly, Yeah. And even before that, I still remember when he made his first appearance he wasn't a cast member. It was in the Sandra Oh episode where he had to keep playing. I forget who he played, but he loved and impressed a lot of people's minds. People were like who's that guy? That guy is hilarious. And then the next season he became the cast member, So I could see, I could see Joe's Che Boan. There you go, That's a little. I like that. 0:03:56 - Speaker 2I think Eggos is a good choice. I think Joe's and Che some day going in as a duo is interesting. It'd be like the Al Franken and Tom Davis, they kind of be on the ballot together. So yeah, wonderful choices. I can see all three of them some day. So next we have on our panel from TV show graphs. I say from TV show graphs, but I don't know if you are TV show graphs, if you just have taken on like that's your persona, like you are TV show graphs, or you're just from, or the creator of, tv show graphs. 0:04:28 - Speaker 5I'll take it either way. 0:04:30 - Speaker 2Just taking it either way. Yeah, so Jamie Burwood, who was a previous guest for the Molly Shannon episode in season one, also my guest for Will Ferrell, who is in the SNL Hall of Fame, and somebody who's on the ballot right now, christopher Walken. So, jamie, thank you so much for joining me and you got to answer this question. 0:04:48 - Speaker 5Yeah, the icebreaker Okay. So I feel like those were all really good answers. Bowen was my initial just like gut reaction. I feel like just in terms of like having that like it factor where I feel like he'll continue to have that like longevity and like association with the show. I would say my other like maybe future looking pick would be like JJ, just like thinking about where I could see things going in the next few years and just like how unique it is, i think, for someone to come in with such the positive reception that he had and I feel like there's just an element of what he's doing that feels like really timeless comedy that like people could continue to appreciate for many, many years. So I would throw him into the mix but agreed with the other, with the other options as well. 0:05:42 - Speaker 2Yeah, i could definitely see JJ master impressionist. I feel like we'll be talking about his impressions for years to come, like how we talk about Darrell Hammond, for instance. I think that's a really good choice. So, thank you so much. Jamie Next we have, who is the co host of the bigger than the game podcast, which is a really great sports and pop culture kind of podcast that I enjoy listening to, and he was my guest this season on the Dick Ebersol episode, which I found fascinating. He's going to be a really fascinating one here on the ballot. So, mr Jeremy Dove, thank you so much for joining me. Jeremy. 0:06:21 - Speaker 6Thomas, i'm so pumped to be on with everybody. I'm honored honestly to talk about SNL Hall of Fame and see if my ballot can measure up to everyone else's and I'm open minded. So if someone brings up a great point and maybe I'm like I got to add this person or cut someone off, so I'm excited. 0:06:39 - Speaker 2That's what we're doing here. We're willing and dealing. 0:06:41 - Speaker 6We're willing and dealing. 0:06:42 - Speaker 2Yeah, you can. You can exchange votes. You can talk somebody into or out of a vote. It's going to be yeah, you can do it this as you please. So, Jeremy, which current cast member not named Keenan Thompson Could you see in the SNL Hall of Fame someday? 0:06:55 - Speaker 6For me it was the slam dunk and you kind of made that point of the way. Like Franken and Davis are duo and they're always going to be remembered as that duo. But Colin Joest and Michael Che just what those two, the chemistry that they have, the way that they bring I always love it when someone makes weekend update appointment television And those two have really done that and they've really, you know, brought that to the zeitgeist where I know plenty of people who don't watch SNL but want to watch those two and see what they're going to do And I think also what they're doing, as you know, head writers and behind the scenes. I'm interested in, once they're done with the show, to kind of look at their legacy and see like they're going to be in that category where I don't know if we fully appreciate it all that they've, you know, put it to the show. So those are my two that I look at as slam dunk. Hall of famers. 0:07:49 - Speaker 2Yeah. So it sounds like when it's time for Michael Che and Joest to be up for consideration for the Hall of Fame, jamie do and I are going to have to have a conversation about should we put them in as a duo, right? Should we put them in together? So that, yeah, that's going to be interesting. You and Darren both brought up really great things for consideration. So, yeah, jeremy, thank you so much. And finally, we have someone who's an improv and sketch performer, currently based in Chicago, also a frequent guest on our good friends at the Saturday Night Network. She's a frequent guest on their network and also my recent guest on the Amy Poehler episode of the SNL Hall of Fame. So, victoria Fronto, thank you so much. Welcome to the SNL Hall of Fame round table. 0:08:36 - Speaker 3I am so excited to be here. This is my first, hopefully not my last, but this is a. It was very difficult to try to rank these people because you think everyone deserves not everyone, but deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. 0:08:52 - Speaker 2So, aside from Kenan Thompson, who we can all agrees the obvious choice among the current cast member, who from the current cast could you see in the SNL Hall of Fame someday? 0:09:03 - Speaker 3So I'll be really honest and say that this current cast is killer. They have some really awesome folks on here And I think, besides Kenan, the obvious would be as mentioned a few times here would be Colin Joseph and Michael Che, but I'm actually stuck between Chloe Feynman, heidi Gardner and Ego Newotem. I think yeah, i think Chloe Chloe's impressions and characters is are really one of a kind and really unique to her. And then, of course, heidi and Ego I think arguably too, could potentially be a duo as well, kind of like a teen and Amy situation. But yeah, those are the three I would say could be up in the Hall of Fame one day. 0:09:52 - Speaker 2Yeah, especially, i think I hope Ego and Heidi especially I think, they've turned in with a lot of. Chloe is still potential, but I think, with Heidi and Ego, i think they've already started to establish a body of work. Yeah, i hope they get their proper dues. So yeah, thank you so much for. 0:10:09 - Speaker 3I do want to give an honorable mention to James Austin Johnson Like I think Jamie just said too, because he did his first episode, was the first person we saw in a cold open. I don't think we've ever seen that. 0:10:23 - Speaker 5Or if we have. 0:10:24 - Speaker 2If we have, it's been a while, so that's in itself, i think, hall of Fame, where they Yeah, when he was a newbie he just came out and just did Joe Biden an impression of Joe Biden like immediately. 0:10:36 - Speaker 5Yeah. 0:10:36 - Speaker 2So, yeah, that has to be points once a long time from now, maybe, when James Austin Johnson is up for nomination, i'm sure that'll be mentioned. So thank you all of you panelists. And now I want to ask you guys. So we changed the voting process a little bit this time around. So now voters are required to vote for at least one person in each of the main categories. So we have as the categories cast member, host, musical guest and writer. So voters have to vote for at least one person in one of those categories, and then you have 11 votes to do as you please. You can just vote for four nominees and that's it. You can use all 15 votes that you have at your disposal. It's up to you. We've had a wide range over these last few voting cycles, so I'm going to start with you, victoria. How many votes Did you use on your ballot and why? 0:11:32 - Speaker 3I used all because I'm a sucker, i can't choose. 0:11:38 - Speaker 2You're just positive, putting pretty positivity out into the world. 0:11:41 - Speaker 3I mean it's, if you're on Saturday Night Live, you're on there for a reason, right? they don't just choose anybody. So I think it's hard to not use all of my votes. I had a hard time, so yeah. 0:11:55 - Speaker 2So Victoria, yeah, victoria, 15 votes that she's going to use on her ballot. Jeremy, how many votes are you using? 0:12:03 - Speaker 6I used all 15 as well. So I'm with Victoria. I went off 15 and for me it's just. I mean, this ballot is, i start to feel now for people who have to really vote for people in Hall of Fame, like you know, in Sports Hall of Fame, like I'm always getting on them, how could you leave this guy out or how you leave that person out. But it is hard and for me, being a lover of history and I love looking at things in a historical aspect, so there's like the heavy hitters who are like the automatic slam dunks on the ballot, but then there's other people who maybe they don't get the recognition from the public, but their historical value to the show and what the impact that they made. I take that into consideration big time. So I used all 15. 0:12:48 - Speaker 2So Jamie Burwood. how many votes did you use on your ballot? 0:12:53 - Speaker 5Yeah, so keeping it going, i used all 15 of my votes as well. For me, this was just a super stacked ballot, honestly, even more so than the last voting round. I really struggled to even narrow it down to the 15. And I think, for me, just realizing how many different ways people can contribute to the show as well like looking at the list of writers, looking at hosts it's just, it's so hard to compare apples to apples. So, yeah, i had no problem using all 15. 0:13:22 - Speaker 2Yeah, and I do have a feeling that most of our voters will use all 15 of their votes. I know I'm a voter as well. I think I'll probably use all 15 votes. It's just kind of a stacked class and there's a lot of tough decisions to be made, so I think you all are not alone in using all 15 votes. So let's get to it. I'm going to name the nominees just to just to reiterate again for our listeners, and then we will reveal everybody's ballots. So the nominees for this this year's class. For the cast member category, we have John Belushi, dana Carvey, jane Curtin, jan hooks, bill Murray, amy Polar, maya Rudolph and Molly Shannon. For hosts, we have Drew Barrymore, candice Bergen, john Goodman, elliott Gould, buck Henry, scarlett Johansson, melissa McCarthy, john Mulaney, paul Rudd, emma Stone, justin Timberlake, lily Tomlin and Christopher Walken lot of hosts on the on the ballot this year. Musical guests we have Beyonce, elvis Costello, miley Cyrus, dave Grohl, paul McCartney, tom Petty and the heartbreakers Prince, rihanna and Paul Simon. And for the writer category, we have James Downey, al Franken and Tom Davis, jack Handy, the Lonely Island, conan O'Brien, michael O'Donohue, paul Appel, herb Sargent and Robert Smigel, and we also have kind of a wild card nominee here. So it's not. He's not part of one of the four main categories, so voters do not have to vote for him. There's no separate producer category, but if somebody chooses, they could use one of their 11 remaining votes to vote for Dick Ebersol, who is on the ballot. Darren, he's giving the thumbs up. He was my guest on the Dick Ebersol episode and I'm curious to see what what you all have to say about Dick Ebersol when we get to him. If we get to him, i feel like we will get to him, though. So now's time where we reveal your ballots, so I want to start with Darren Patterson. So, darren, who's the first person you would like to talk about from your ballot? 0:15:39 - Speaker 4First person I'd like to talk about. I hmm, maybe we'll go with musical guest, just because it's like I only chose two people from there, really. So yeah, musical guest the first person who. I think it's a no brainer that they should absolutely be in SNL Hall of Fame, mr Paul Simon, you know he was there. He's been there since the beginning. He's good friends with Lorne. He's always sort of been, i guess, sort of the the fact or the fault musical guest, like when the show was first starting. Of course there was. You know he's been in a few sketches here and there. It was the famous sketch where he had that sort of reunion with Garfunkel and you know kind of you know, maybe not nice word for said. You know, of course there's a they called open waves like a dress or the opening monologue. Rather, we dressed good turkey for Thanksgiving episode, like he's always just sort of been, you know, this sort of old souls, old presence of the of the show for forever. So yeah, number one musical guest Paul Simon. 0:16:46 - Speaker 2And, as I told my guest on that episode, maddie Price, were kind of playing fast and loose with the criteria for Paul Simon because he was only billed as a musical guest eight times I think, but he played music on the show about 15 times. So I think we should probably I would import voters to maybe take into account all 15 of those times he was host and he performed music. He performed music when he wasn't billed as anything on the show. So Paul Simon, maybe Lorne Michael's best friend and just part of the fabric of SNL. So wonderful pick, darren. Do any of you have Paul Simon on your ballots? 0:17:27 - Speaker 6Yes, yes, he was my slam dunk musical guest as well. I think about two things the what happened after 911 and him singing the boxer and that whole moment kind of helped to In a way heal the country and such an iconic moment in SNL history you know, with Giuliani and all the firemen You know behind in Lauren coming on stage. And I also think about the SNL 40th And the fact that I think Paul was touring I forget where but Lauren pretty much saying like I need you here, you have to come. So Paul Simon flying in like on the red eye to be there for that event, but just kind of showing how important his place is, not just for Lauren but SNL history. So Paul Simon was my musical guest, slam dunk now very good. 0:18:17 - Speaker 2So, jamie, victoria to either of you. Jamie, do you have Paul Simon on yours? 0:18:22 - Speaker 5Yeah, i did, and I struggled with the music category a bit as well, but I did end up including him. I think Something that comes into play for me and it's there's so many different factors, but I think, like impact across decades is something I talked a little bit about last time and I think, for all the reasons that were said before, but also I think for that like Longevity and like having impacted different types of ways, was what pushed him over over the edge for me. 0:18:51 - Speaker 2Yeah, his first appearance was in the second episode of the show And if that was basically the Paul Simon show, which is in 75 in season one, and then his most recent, i believe, was 2018. So you're right, i mean just spanning eras, more so than almost anybody in the show's history. Victoria, what do you think Paul Simon make your cut? 0:19:10 - Speaker 3You know what He did not, but that doesn't mean I don't think he's eventually worthy. I mean, i do think he's worthy, but I only had. So no. For my musical guest I chose Beyonce. Has the most Grammys, has, you know, played such a significant part of SNL outside of her physical appearance on the show has made? She's a global icon. And you know who's are we gonna forget? like the Justin Timberlake, you know Lonely Island sketch No Beyonce. So double dipping, triple dipping. 0:19:47 - Speaker 2Yeah, a musical guest, though. That's great, and we I've noticed in the past that musical guests have been kind of shut out. I mean, they have been shut out as far as voting goes. So it's kind of neat to see all of you have at least one musical guest, if not more. So, specifically to Beyonce, jamie Dermey Darren. Do any of you have Beyonce on your ballot, jamie? why not? 0:20:13 - Speaker 5I didn't. I think it was just a limited. I feel like there's folks where I'm like, okay, next time, like next time, i'm getting them on and then we'll see what the battle looks like next time. I feel like it's always super crowded, but I'll keep her on my shortlist for next time. 0:20:27 - Speaker 2Jeremy, are we, are you on Victoria's side or? 0:20:31 - Speaker 6sorry, victoria. So for three, i gotta Not go with Beyonce on my list. It's just, she's iconic, she's great And, like Darren said, no disrespect to the beehive because they're always listening, but I just don't associate her For SNL Hall of Fame. She hauled very good, but not the Hall of Fame. So I have those. I got tough standards, so no, no Beyonce on my list. 0:20:58 - Speaker 2So if we're taking this four-person sample size, beyonce may have to wait Next voting cycle and we'll see unless, unless the unless the beehive kind of gets wind of this And I'm sure they'll push her over the edge. 0:21:12 - Speaker 3All in that one tweet it just takes one. 0:21:14 - Speaker 2Oh no, that sounded like a threat. I heard that. I heard that in your voice, victoria. We'll see. Alright, mobilized the beehive, let's go. Jeremy, i want to stay with you. Who do you want to talk about? 0:21:28 - Speaker 6I'm gonna go with the host category and mine might be a little bit different, i don't know, but I'm going with someone on the first ballot It was this season, i believe episode 2. I gotta go with Buck Henry. For me he was my slam dunk for the host For just the way his impact was on those initial five years and I'm someone who is Very partial to anything that's like the foundation of something I'm gonna give a lot of credit to. And when you think of there's two people in that era who were hosts and a Lot of people get confused and think they were a part of the cast and obviously that's Steve Martin, number one and number two It's Buck Henry and just for a long time, until I think, like the 88 89 season, had the most hosting Appearances than anyone else. So I mean, we talked about five timers club and how big of a deal that is for SNL lore. We got to give it to like the OG of that and that's, you know, buck Henry. And even just it was his suggestion for recurring characters, which is, you know him telling like to Lauren and all the writers, like that Belushi samurai sketch. We should, you know, got to do it again And you know just his impact on the show and his impact with influencing the original cast. Buck Henry is my slam dunk for host. 0:22:50 - Speaker 2All right, buck Henry the first go-to host in SNL history. He hosted twice a year the first five seasons of the show. Pretty good and understandable choice. Jamie, how do you feel about Buck Henry? 0:23:04 - Speaker 5Yeah, so I did include him as well. I think just really being like first member of the five-timers club for me was like okay, that's, that's a big credential like that. That really holds a lot of weight, i think. And it also was thinking about like when he was hosting. So like he hosted multiple like series, or season finale is, i Feel like for him like it wasn't just about frequency either. It was really like the role that he played and how people saw him as part of the show and just really being Integral to like the feel that the show had in in those early years. So yeah, for for me He was Not like the very top of my overall list, but definitely like made the cut for the 15. 0:23:44 - Speaker 2All right, darren, you're an SNL scholar, i believe. how do you feel about Buck Henry? 0:23:50 - Speaker 4Yes, yeah, i feel very good about Buck Henry. He actually made my list, um, for a lot of the reasons I dare me said he's just one of the. You know, key integral host has been there since day one. I mean, i mean the man got hit with the samurai sword mid-sketched and kept on going. I mean that's, that's dedication. I mean I don't care what you say and yeah, you know, he's always been there. You know some, some of the characters he played me Maybe, maybe have an age as well. That uncle. 0:24:21 - Speaker 2Roy. 0:24:22 - Speaker 4Yes, i'll go. 0:24:25 - Speaker 2Yeah, let's yeah. 0:24:28 - Speaker 4But uh, yeah, like you know, he's been, he was, he's been there for so long, has a longevity. 0:24:34 - Speaker 2Yeah, for me, yeah, he does all right buck, henry, on three ballots so far, victoria, are we making it four for four? 0:24:41 - Speaker 3We sure are. He is part of the foundation of this show and, as Jamie mentioned as well, the first five-timer, i mean he's a ten-timer at least. So I mean he's, he's iconic, he's a legend and you know, if you're an SNL nerd, you know who he is. So He, i mean, i feel like that's a no-brainer. 0:25:04 - Speaker 2So I guess, going into voting and the reveal of the SNL Hall of Fame this season, you've got to be feeling good about Buck Henry's chances from from how it sounds. So, jamie Burwood, i want to go to you now, and who would you like to talk about from your ballot? 0:25:20 - Speaker 5Yeah, so I'm gonna move it into the writing category Because this is one where I was really disappointed It didn't get in the first time, was even more disappointed They didn't get in the second time. So really gonna try to work on on the pitch for this one, and this is the lonely island. So for me I I just feel like thinking about the impact that they had on the show and taking it to the next era was just so huge and I feel like sometimes Isn't something we recognize enough. Just really the way that they made SNL comedy Viral friendly in a way that allowed the show to evolve and that I honestly think played a big part in the fact that We're still here today. The show made the changes with the times into this more kind of like snippet Viral friendly world. I just think about the era with them and the role that they played and like defining the tone of the The show. I could go on and on, but I will stop there, super passionate about this one in terms of just the, the role that they played in their era. 0:26:31 - Speaker 2So I have cut the the most passionate professional wrestling promos on why The Lonely Island should be in the SNL Hall of Fame and that the fact that they're not It's a really. I think out of anybody who's not in the SNL Hall of Fame who has been on the ballot before, i think I'm most passionate about the Lonely Island, so it's just kind of ridiculous to me that they're not in. so does anybody Agree with me? want to take up that mantle, that? take up that cause, darren? Yes, what do you? 0:26:59 - Speaker 4think, yeah, i'll, i will take that cause up with you, sir. I had them on my list as well, just because, basically a lot of reasons Jamie said, just the way they were able to sort of Bring in SNL to like the new era is like really pretty unprecedented, because I mean, yes, snl has had short films on the On the show before, like you know, the Albert Brooks stuff, the Shiller, tom Shiller, you know. You know Short films and whatnot, but I think the thing that separates Lonely Island from them is they were coming up around the same time YouTube was becoming big and like people were getting into that and So like it was like the sort of perfect marriage where they were coming up with these you know We are little videos and and also the music videos too, and like YouTube sort of helped, you know, elevate them and bring out, sure, snl into like a whole new era and also like the songs that they came out. 0:27:55 - Speaker 2Yeah, really, there's a chance like I'm on a boat. 0:27:59 - Speaker 4My pants, yeah, i, yeah, i mean a dick in a box. I think one of Grammy or at least was like nominated, i'm pretty sure one. I know it was definitely nominated and It was like the impact they left. You can still see it on the show today, like after they left they were still trying to do those catching music videos with Pete and Chris red and Like even now we're pleased on destroyed people. Still, they get compared to Lonely Island. Does you know? I'm time to time. So, yeah, lonely Island. They definitely left like a legacy behind when they left. I mean it's, i mean just that incredible, that incredible bad album. 0:28:36 - Speaker 2I still think, yeah, fantastic and full of bangers classic Jeremy, what do you have to say about the Lonely Island? 0:28:44 - Speaker 6I Hey, I've done it before, I'll do it again. I think I stand alone on the fact that they are not on my list. 0:28:52 - Speaker 2Oh no, I'm sorry, so the person I was yelling at in the past was you. It was. 0:28:58 - Speaker 6All right, it was, and the thing is it's it's someone's Gotta get cut, you know, that's the thing. So I'm not here to say that they're not worthy of the Hall of Fame, because everyone made great points. I just look at everyone else on the list. I want to give props to those of past generations Because I feel like the younger audience will forget them, and I want to give them their props. And I just also to what Jamie said earlier. There's some people on here who have hit like cross-generational as far as either a cast member or a writer or host, and I want to give them their love. So I think the Lonely Island if they don't make it this year, i definitely probably can see me voting for them from the next ballot. But they were a tough one, but they did not make my my top 15. 0:29:47 - Speaker 2Victoria, are you gonna agree with Jeremy, or are you on the correct side? 0:29:56 - Speaker 3I I I'm shook. I Agree with Jeremy in that we should give those who've given SNL It's name and the reason why it's here today, because it's a strong foundation, it's it set the tone for other you know comedic ventures, but the Lonely Island Emmy award winners, grammy nominated, for sure deserve a spot in the Hall of Fame. I mean they were. I don't want to say they're ahead of their time, but I guess they've helped SNL stay on course and be with the times and not be so old-school. And, you know, push forward a new way of thinking. And I Think Darren mentioned it too of you know those music videos with Pete Davidson and Chris Radd. And now, please don't destroy. I mean we wouldn't have those, quite frankly, if it wasn't for the Lonely Island and I'm a mother lover, you're a mother lover, we can love, you know, i mean catchy, like what was it called? I'm on a boat is so iconic to. I mean I Don't feel like that's really an argument, thomas, do you like? I feel like that's just like an, also a no-brainer. 0:31:12 - Speaker 2Yeah well, here on the SNL Hall of Fame, we respect everybody's opinion and it's all valid, but I should point out In order to get into the SNL Hall of Fame And the nominee needs sixty six point seven percent of the vote. Lonely Island had about sixty two last cycle. I think they're gonna get in this. That's just my prediction. Judging by, they got seventy five percent Here, unofficially, including myself. They got eighty percent, so I kind of a feeling. 0:31:44 - Speaker 6I'll say this if they get in, i'm not gonna be like what, like I'll be for it. Okay, you know I'm not like anti. Yeah, i won't do that. There's some other names on here who I might do that for, but not Lonely Island. 0:31:58 - Speaker 3I'm down if they get in, listen all it. All it takes is one tweet. 0:32:04 - Speaker 2Oh, victoria's trying to utilize, like she's trying to weaponize. Okay, he really is. Geez, victoria. So I want to. I want to see when to go back to you, victoria. Who do you want to talk about next on your list? I have zero followers. 0:32:16 - Speaker 3It's funny. Oh Man, I want to say Paula Pell. 0:32:22 - Speaker 2Paul, up hell in the writer category. Yeah. 0:32:26 - Speaker 3I mean one. Her tenure there was Long, i think, from 1995 to 2013. That's almost 20 years. Is that right? my math thing, correctly, okay, yeah, i graduate from the College of Communication where minimal math was required for a reason. But no, i mean you know the Spartan cheerleaders, debbie Downer, the omeletville Justin Timberlake character. I mean she's put up such great characters that are Stand out in SNL history. I mean it would be hard for me to not include her on on my ballot. 0:33:02 - Speaker 2And very influential to Jamie. You have Paula Pell. 0:33:05 - Speaker 5I did. Yeah, i just listened to this podcast episode the other day and Was already convinced, but it really put me over the edge. I think I talk a lot about like her era in SNL, just because I I love that era and I feel like I I maybe don't give enough credit sometimes to the writing beyond that era and I think she was such a critical Writing force of that time and I definitely have a sweet spot, i think, for writers that do a great job of creating characters and, like Victoria said, she really shown in that way. I also just think she's a wonderful Person and so she gets the wonderful person bonus point, but just impact alone for that era from the writing side. I did include her. 0:33:50 - Speaker 2Yeah, she had her thumb prints on a lot of things that we don't even realize. Definitely it was interesting to go back and research. Darren, How do you feel you have Paula Pell? 0:34:00 - Speaker 4Look, i have her on. I wrote her down as one of the writers but I didn't Ultimately choose her just because I think the writers character is like a really Stack deck. And you know, while I do appreciate Paula Pell, i love girls, five ever, i love it all But I didn't, i didn't quite choose it just because I felt there were maybe a few there a little bit more stronger. But yeah, i mean, paula Pell is fantastic. She's like you know, she, i do. Sometimes I do feel like she kind of gone, unsung in a lot of way than meets, you know, a lot more loved. And she, she got on the show, or you know. 0:34:40 - Speaker 2Yeah, and this one is tough. If you had to make that cut, i had to make some tough cuts. Man, we don't have to walk on eggshells. This is a safe space. We can bellow it out with confidence. We didn't and we didn't. If you didn't vote for Paula Pell, then and that's perfectly fine, i think. I think, with writers in general, sometimes it's hard to know what they wrote and what they did, and especially in the late 90s to mid 2000s that she was involved in. So I'm always curious to see how writers are gonna do here. But Definitely fair enough, darren Daryn, me, how about you? 0:35:12 - Speaker 6Absolutely Yes, paula Pell makes my list for what everyone else said, the sketches that are so iconic from cheerleaders Debbie Downer, like that was like all of us love SNL, but everyone had to watch those Debbie Downer sketches, her work in association with Kristen Wiig and she was really a big part of her popular sketches as well, and also in that rise in those like 2000s when Tina Fey and Amy Poehler and Maya and Kristen kind of really You know, put women on the forefront of SNL, like really the first time by really taking over and not making it a boys club, and I feel like Paula Pell was a big part behind the scenes and making that happen. So for me, the way you guys talked about Lonely Island, i think it's a crime that she's on the second ballot. So Paula Pell is a definite one for me. 0:36:02 - Speaker 2Yeah, paula Pell, snl, was much better off having her voice on the writing staff. Absolutely So, darren. You have Paul, simon, buck, henry and the Lonely Island So far. So who's another person on your ballot you would like to bring up? 0:36:18 - Speaker 4Well, let's forget the person I talked to you about on the last time I was here, dana Carvey. I think it's no brainer, i think he's one of those people who maybe people kind of forgot about how impactful he was in his day, just because, like he's still around now and he's still, you know, his own late night shows and he has his podcast. But like you have to remember, like when he was on the show, how hard he hit and how much he just elevated every scene and elevated the show. Like his very first episode he came out with the Chopin Broccoli sketch which was like something he'd done in stand-up and I think, like I mentioned the last time I was on a podcast, like a cast member is lucky if they have one memorable recurring character that they can go to with a catchphrase. And Dana Carvey had multiple recurring characters with multiple, you know, catchphrases. He was the church lady, he was Hans and Franz. He was, you know, garth Wayne and Garth He was. I mean, he had the Johnny Carson impression, he was the George W Bush. He had like all these impressions, all these characters. He was just like knocking it out the park like every episode And he was just like really beloved and everybody really liked him and he was just like a great performer and I don't know like Dana Carvey, like in his prime. 0:37:38 - Speaker 2Yeah, he was a force and I have a feeling that we're gonna have a clean sweep here, but I don't know, somebody might surprise me. Let's see, victoria, what say you? 0:37:47 - Speaker 3What say me? Of course, of course, dana Carvey. I mean it was just mentioned, hans and Franz, church lady, i mean. But more than that, going to Jeremy's point, and I, you know, even though I have some recent folks on here, i do pay homage later in my ballot to those who came before us, especially women, but Dana Carvey is someone who, without him, there is none of these recent folks either. So you know it's where. So we, we keep standing on the shoulders of those before us and he is a shoulder of muscle. I don't know if that's a real phrase, but he's a shoulder of muscle, he's like his and then leave, you know Wayne's world, and then all his other stuff afterward, is, is, is killer. I don't think I feel like that. One is also an obvious one. I'm kind of confused as to why he's not in there already but, we will, but we will discuss, we will discuss. 0:38:49 - Speaker 2Well, he's not in there because this is his first time on the ballot. See at the Esenola fame. We kind of like to space it out a little bit. So this was just his first time on the ballot, so that that's an easy reason. It was no slide against Dana. 0:39:03 - Speaker 3Okay, i'll tell Twitter to back off. 0:39:06 - Speaker 2Yeah, tell him to back off. Thank you, jamie Burwood. Are you a fan of Dana Carvey? 0:39:11 - Speaker 5Yeah, definitely. I think, just when you think about like performers that are just so associated with their era on SNL everyone's already touched on just characters, i think church lady, like in the conversation, for just top one of the top tier, all time characters impressions, i feel like people will still play the like George HW clips and it just has that lasting impact. So, yeah, for me I don't think there is a. I'd be curious to hear an argument to not include him, but for me I think it's a no brainer. Agreed. 0:39:49 - Speaker 2Jeremy do have four for four. 0:39:52 - Speaker 6Absolutely. That was, for you know, the one, the four that we had to have. Dana was my cast member. For me, i look at it like on my episode when I was on with you, thomas, i talked about Dick Ebersol and that Eddie Murphy, joe Piscobo. That's the first cast that saved the show from like being done. The second was with Dana Carvey and Phil Hartman, kevin Nealon and all those And, honestly for me, if I see a greatest SNL list and Dana Carvey isn't in the top 10, that's when I'm just like throwing an outrage, i'm throwing papers, i'm going what the heck is this? Dana Carvey, to me, is a top 10 SNL cast member, so it's a no brainer, dana Carvey. 0:40:37 - Speaker 2Yeah, i think Dana is going to be. I'll go out on a limb and say he's going to be a lock. I think he's going to get voted in here on his first try And with him to me it's not just is he an SNL, snl Hall of Famer, it's, is he on the Mount Rushmore of SNL cast members? And I think that's the conversation that Dana is in. Jeremy, who's who's next on your list? 0:40:58 - Speaker 6For me this person was the writer lock. So the other three are all mentioned for my locks Paul Simon, dana Carvey. I mentioned Buck Henry. I'm going for that writer, robert Schmigel, who was brought up his own first time on the ballot, and just so many of the iconic sketches that he was a part of, from TV Funhouse to the, that finale for the 85, 86 season with the John Lovitz you know, and you know Billy Martin and Lauren, like they're burning up, like that cast and who will survive, and that's pretty gutsy, for like that was Michael's first season, and for him to kind of write that sketch, the iconic not going to phone it in tonight, that code open with Steve Martin that everyone still talks about to this day, the bear sketch. There's just so many things that Robert Schmigel has an impact on And from that initial run in the 80s into the mid 90s and then he's come back and done so many things. Robert Schmigel to me is also like, as far as a writer, a slam dunk Hall of Famer. As far as writers they kind of like what you said, thomas, it's not. If he's going to be a Hall of Famer is, is he on that pantheon of Mount Rushmore of greatest SNL writers. So for me Robert Schmigel is easy. 0:42:16 - Speaker 2Yeah, darren. What do you think about Robert Schmigel? 0:42:20 - Speaker 4I think, yes, i had him down as one of my writers to. He's like one of those writers just really defined his era of SNL. I mean, you know, like Darren me said, like with the TV fun house, a lot of those, if you go back and watch some of those TV fun, a lot of them. He's really pushing the envelope in a lot of oh yeah, like you know, the form with real audio, especially that one, i think, sex in the country which is Jesus. I mean, wow, victoria. 0:42:52 - Speaker 3Well, now that you say that, no, i completely agree with everything Jeremy said. I wouldn't change anything about what Jeremy said, but my only thing is he did not make the ballot this time around, i'm really sorry to say, as just his work is phenomenal just didn't have that much of an impact on me. That's all Nothing against him. If I had 16, he'd be on there. They only gave me 15. Sorry, so you're passing the buck. 0:43:22 - Speaker 2You're blaming me and Jamie. Jamie, do for for our, for our, oppressive rules for voting. 0:43:29 - Speaker 3Yeah, all right, i got it. 0:43:31 - Speaker 2I got it. I'll say this about Robert Smigel and Bill Kenny and I had a good conversation about it. I think if you only looked at his sketch writing, he might be an SNL Hall of Famer, and if you only looked at TV fun house on its own he might be an SNL Hall of Famer, but combined it's a pretty big argument. just the totality of it all, i think. So he would get my vote. Smits gay, I mean it's gay is one of the one of the iconic ad parodies of the early 90s. Yeah, so Robert was just behind. So much And I think at some point he may get in and it'll be very well deserved. So I want to go to Jamie Burwood find out who's next on your list. 0:44:18 - Speaker 5All right. So staying with the cast had to go with Amy. This was tip top of my list. Just no question on this one. for me, definitely like top three across my ballot overall. I think just looking at how she was like promoted so quickly from featured player to full cast member, just thinking about I think the versatility for her is what really stands out. Just thinking about weekend update, impact characters, impressions, like the political bits, like just every little piece she touched upon. And I just when I think, when people think about that era of the early 2000s, like you can't talk about that era without talking about Amy. So for me she was a definite check plus, plus, plus. 0:45:15 - Speaker 2And Victoria Franca. You were my guest on the Amy Poehler episode In this season. Do I even have to ask? 0:45:22 - Speaker 3You don't, you absolutely don't, but I just, jamie, just said it. She was the first woman to be promoted within her first season at Saturday Night Live as someone who's trying to semi-follow on her footsteps of being in the Chicago comedy scene. I don't think people truly understand what she's done. Pre-snl in this realm is such a big deal and not many people get to experience it. And then I mean this will explain why she's she was number one. I also just wanted to defend my episode. It would be silly for me not to have her on my ballot, but she, if you go to her Wikipedia page and you look at her awards it has, you have to go to a different Wikipedia page to list all of her awards and norms. So enough said she's. You know she's one of a kind, she's the first of many And yeah, i mean for my mention this in that episode that I am standing on her shoulders and I know that she's standing on others, but for me she's the one pulling me up to the top. 0:46:30 - Speaker 2So All right, Darren Patterson, does Amy Poehler get the thumbs up from you? 0:46:35 - Speaker 4She does. She was on my list. I mean it's, i don't know how you can not have her on the show. She's, i don't know, she's fantastic, she's phenomenal. You know, founding member of the UCB and the episode she didn't really show that she's like had strong improv chops from the from the jump. You know her time. A weekend update was memorable with both with Tina and with Seth. 0:47:03 - Speaker 6Yeah, that's a no brainer, It's, she's. she's someone like you can make a case kind of like it's hard not to even put her in like anyone's top 10 of all time kind of lists. So Amy Poehler's easy. 0:47:15 - Speaker 2Yeah, Amy Poehler's super beloved. I have a feeling we'll be sending her her Hall of Fame plaque here in the next few months. Darren, I'll go back to you Who's next on your list. 0:47:26 - Speaker 4Well, let's go back to host And this, this host I wrote, i wrote down, i believe one of you guys talked about on the episode Christopher Walken Let's talk about, start talking about walking. I feel like he's yeah, i mean, he's pretty much he's a no brainer just to get into the Hall of Fame again. He's one of those hosts you wouldn't think would be good in comedic sketches, just because he mainly he does drama and he has, you know, he's a bit of an odd character But somehow a Sunnell was able to like funnel that odd energy he has into all these classic sketches. You know, of course, the continental kernel Angus And you know, and of course, the cowbell sketch with the blue oyster skull, one of the most iconic sketch that people are still quoting to this day. You know, i got to have more cowbell. Yeah, it is. It is strange like how, you know, christopher Walken does have this kind of odd energy, is able to funnel that into comedy to show that he's not, you know, such a, you know, kind of weird weirdo, but he's actually pretty funny too And he's actually has comedic chops. 0:48:40 - Speaker 5So, in addition to all those points, i feel like just the way that his episodes had this like kind of total feel to them of like you had certain things you look forward to, like those opening musical numbers that were just always a little bit zamy and fun and certain recurring characters and sketches that he participated in, kind of bringing to the next level. I feel like he was always up for anything And I think like what's really what's really interesting to me about him and we talked a little bit about this in the podcast was not only did like you see him having an impact on the show, you see the show impacting how people think about him. Like when you talk to somebody about Christopher Walken, they think of SNL. Like it's just become so intertwined like his identity and SNL, that I feel like he he had to get one of my votes. 0:49:33 - Speaker 2So, darmie, does Christopher Walken's odd energy and personality resonate with you? 0:49:40 - Speaker 6It does but not for my list. But okay, he doesn't make my list. But, like, i'm a big fan of Christopher Walken And everyone has made great points and you know, got nothing but love for everybody. But I will say this, and I believe, thomas, we spoke about this like back when I was on the show with you, like off air And I might get some heat for it But if you take away in the cowbell sketches iconic top five sketch of all time if you take that away, i don't think Christopher Walken is making the impact with everyone. In my opinion I'd like to weigh everyone else is saying so I feel like there's moments That can be Hall of Fame worthy. There's those Hall of like in sports, hall of Fame type of games, hall of Fame type of contributors, in other ways. But I feel like that sketch is how Christopher Walken, in my opinion, should be in a Hall of Fame. He's a part of a Hall of Fame sketch, a Mount Rushmore sketch, but you take that away. are people really talking about Christopher Walken on SNL like is he hitting it that same way? I Personally don't think so. So Christopher Walken, i could see him getting in in the future on my ballot, but for right now he's. He's a. It's a tough one, but no. 0:50:54 - Speaker 2Victoria, what do you think I? 0:50:56 - Speaker 3Agree with Jeremy here. I outside of cowbell and maybe Colonel Angus, which is like Just recently came a top of mind, i Can't really name anything else I mean in the cowbell itself, i think The star of that was Will Ferrell, so he wasn't even a focal point really in that for me. So I mean not to say he's not talented, not to say he's not iconic, but I think when it comes to I think he deserves to be in a Hall of Fame like an actor or comedy Hall of Fame. 0:51:27 - Speaker 2But just ball. 0:51:28 - Speaker 3Hall of Fame right, but just for me, it wouldn't be the Saturday Night Live Hall of Fame. And if you're listening to this, christopher Walken And I know that you are Don't kill me. 0:51:39 - Speaker 6All it takes is one tweet. 0:51:42 - Speaker 2All right, victoria. Who are gonna be tweeting about next? who's on your list? 0:51:46 - Speaker 3This is hard. This is hard. I moved, i Took someone else out and I, as we were talking, and I replaced this person with them. I won't say it because I feel like this person can be mentioned by someone else, but a writer and, i think, someone who is, who deserves their flowers, at least from NBC The one and only Conan O'Brien. Conan O'Brien is Undoubtedly funny. He's made such an impact on Saturday Night Live and I feel like he's. You know, i think he's earned it and and how much work he's put in. And you know, we all know Conan O'Brien. He's, i think he's a staple in the comedy world low-loan Saturday Night Live and, and his career wouldn't be where it is today without Saturday Night Live. So that's so. 0:52:34 - Speaker 2I've added him in all right, team Cocoa Victoria is. Team Cocoa Is anybody else. Does anybody else have Conan on their list? And if not, why not? I'm actually want to go to Darren. What do you think about Conan O'Brien? 0:52:49 - Speaker 4Hey look, i love Coco, i love mr, mr O'Brien I I came very close to having a moment. Let's very close. Just, you know, just he is, of course, you know, in the eight. I think the 80s era as an L is the era I grew up with, right, that's why I really have an affinity for it. And so to see, like Conan O'Brien in that era, where he was with other writers, like You know, bob, odin, kirk and and Schmeigel, like that really Endured me to him. Of course He was a fantastic writer with a Simpsons. He was in the very first five-timers Club sketch, of course. 0:53:25 - Speaker 6It was a very easy no for me because I Definitely respect Conan as the performer and the late-night host and what he's become. But I feel on the show He was a part of a group of writers that like emerged, but there's not a lot of sketches that were like that's a Conan sketch, i believe. Even on, like the fly on the wall Podcast with Carvey and spade, schmeigel went on and said that the, the girl watcher that love it's in Hanks did. That was a mostly a Conan Like written sketch which I a lot of people gave to Schmeigel, including myself, that Schmeigel only helped out with. But I think Conan because who he became, we know him, i think of him writing wise, more for what he did on the Simpsons than what he did on SNL. So for me, conan not on the list. 0:54:12 - Speaker 2Jamie, do you have anything to say about Conan? 0:54:13 - Speaker 5Yeah, he did not make my list, unfortunately either. I feel like I Was like being pulled a little bit by the fact that he's like a great entertainer and human. But then I like got checked and was like, if I didn't think of him from other things, would he still make my list? and when I applied that check he didn't. 0:54:30 - Speaker 2So I think that's fair. Well, we've just caused Victoria to mobilize the beehive and team Coco, so so right, i think we're all in for it. 0:54:40 - Speaker 3I hope you're all sweating. 0:54:42 - Speaker 2Yeah, Jeremy, I want to. 0:54:44 - Speaker 6I want to know what's who's next on your list for me, i got to go with a guy who I probably would not put him on my top 10 Greatest cast members anymore but he's definitely on top 10 most important, and that's John Belushi. To me, one of the people to establish What SNL was, not just because he was there and on the show, but just that kind of rebellious, kind of anti-establishment counterculture feel that SNL had for so long and now it is part of. It is the establishment now But to kind of give it where like SNL had that cool feeling. I think John Belushi was the first one to really get that. I mean the sketches from the Blues Brothers to, you know, with the samurai, just so many things on there, are just iconic and For someone like him who at one point was on the number one, you know, late night show had a number one album with the Blues Brothers and the number one movie with Animal House, all at one point Kind of really you can say Chevy Chase But I feel like the the blueprint for that SNL star to get into movies and everything. I look at John Belushi As he's that first one to kind of be like, oh, from SNL Stardom to movie stardom. That was him and he kind of paved the way, for you saw what Bill Murray did and Eddie Murphy and Sandler and all these other guys. So John Belushi I I guess that I would got to put him as Top 10 most important cast members. He's a no-brainer. 0:56:19 - Speaker 2Yeah, jamie, is he a no-brainer for you? 0:56:22 - Speaker 5Yeah, he was, and this is where, like, i feel like I sometimes have to separate, like personal preference and historical impact. and I think, like personal preference aside and I mean no, no disrespect, amazing comedian, but Just, yeah, legacy on the show, i think a lot of folks would really have him in the conversation for Top 10, some might even say top five, just impactful Cast numbers. So, yeah, he definitely made my list. 0:56:49 - Speaker 2Yeah. 0:56:49 - Speaker 4Darren Yeah, absolutely, he made my list too. I mean he was he was the first cast member in the first cold open of the show ever. Yeah, and like a lot of things that Darren, me and Jamie already hit the two like his impact on the show, the energy brought, he brought that Sort of rebellious wild card, you know factor to the show. That that really, you know that really Resonated with the young audience at the time, while the college kids and whatever like he, you know, he just like was embodied, that just like the crazy You know party guy and and you know, just doing cartwheels. I mean just his yeah, his impact and his energy was just so Momentous and it affected future cast members too, like like Chris Farley is, you know, said on record numerous times like yeah, i modeled my whole life after John Belushi. 0:57:41 - Speaker 3The trace of him is is throughout comedy for Forever and I mean in Rolling Stone, and I have the magazine He's the cover, and Rolling Stone, in February 2015, did a ranking of, i think, all 141 SNL cast members. At that time, of course, that was eight years ago, and he was number one and I think it just speaks to him and it speaks to his comedy and you know, he's, he's, he's a legend, he's one of the goats, as as the kids say these days, and he's I'll say he's like the Michael Jordan of SNL cast members. 0:58:22 - Speaker 2Yeah, and I think he, I think he's gonna find himself in the SNL Hall of Fame. He's another one of those. When we set up the season and looked at the ballot that it's pretty sure was gonna make it. So this is almost just confirmation of that. I'm gonna go over to Jamie And find out who's next on your list. 0:58:39 - Speaker 5Yeah so Let's maybe talk about dick. Ever saw I Was. I don't want to steal your thunder, dare me, just listen to your podcast on this one as well and I Yeah, i think just when we're talking about like impact on the show and thinking about multiple Touch points where he had a pivotal role, that was what really pushed this over the edge for me. So I think, thinking about that initial role in helping to create the show and the role he played with Lauren, but then also thinking about his role and arguably the biggest save of the show And I think a lot of times we'll throw around the phrase like oh, snl wouldn't be here, wouldn't be what it is without XYZ person, but I think in this case, like it's actually pretty true. So that, to me, pushed me over the edge on this one. It's a little bit of a non-traditional, like getting outside the cast host world, but I did end up including him in my ballot. 0:59:41 - Speaker 2Yeah, dick ever saw. Super interesting to me. I'm gonna clear the the seas for you. Now dare me Tell us what you want to about dick ever saw. 0:59:51 - Speaker 6Jamie, you are amazing. This is so cool. I thought I'd be up here by myself and this you've made my week. Thank you, jamie. Dick ever saw the man who helped to co-create Saturday Night Live. He picked Lauren Michaels We all can agree the most important person in SNL history to run the show. It's a big part in forming it. Then when Lauren leaves and Jean Dominion almost threw it down the toilet and they fire her, they bring in ever saw and By box office numbers and I think it's hard to really argue it the biggest star to come from the show is Eddie Murphy. And who's the one now? Eddie was hired Reluctantly by Jean Domenion who put him in that star seat. That saved the show. That was dick ever saw and I mean those two things right there I got to give love for. But then you can also look at that Steinbrenner year Where you have Billy Crystal and Chris guests and you know Martin short and those iconic sketches that came from one year. That's also dick ever saw. So right on, jamie, dick ever saw slam dunk for me. 1:00:58 - Speaker 2Yes, jeremy, thank you so much and you're a great guest on that show and Dick ever saw just a fascinating candidate to me, victoria. I'm curious to know your thoughts. How much did you give dick ever saw much consideration? 1:01:12 - Speaker 3Yeah, jamie and Jeremy Said it that I mean it is what it is SNL like. As Jamie said, it would literally not be here If it wasn't for him. So, giving, giving him his, his flowers. 1:01:29 - Speaker 2Yes, dick ever saw. all right, darren, are we gonna make me and Jeremy and All the dick ever saw fans happy out there? 1:01:37 - Speaker 4Uh, yeah, yeah, let's do it. Just because I think I know a lot of, for some reason like a lot of purists, i guess. Only consider the Lorne Michael years of SNL, like the true SNL, just, and also, like I mean, with the exception of you know, like it's at the Eddie Murphy episode, no one really talks about the ever saw all years that much, but like I've I Gotta go back and watch them again. But like I do remember there being like a lot of Like solid shows and a lot of solid performers and sketches Happening in those years and they don't really kind of get talked about that much. It's like one of those things where, like people are surprised when you, when they hit I like Julie Louis Dreyfus was on SNL It's like, oh really, i don't. 1:02:20 - Speaker 2Darren, i want to stay with you. Let us know who's next on your list, next on my list. 1:02:29 - Speaker 4All right. Well, i mean I forgot if. Okay, all right, we all right, We got it All right. Bill Murray, we got to have Bill Murray in the SNL Hall of Fame. It's not even it's. What are we doing here? I Mean the guy came in replaced Chevy Chase after Chevy left after season one and Pretty much did a better job Chevy Chase's job than Chevy did. I mean he came out with like Nick the loud singer and did the nerds with Gilda and he just Kind of brought in this really kind of loosey-goosey, laid-back energy to the show that really people really like, really loved and fived with. You know people find him endearing and like that really enjoy working Joy working with him on the show, like I would say I mean, and also he's just gone on to be Be this really great actor and have this really great career. 1:03:22 - Speaker 2Jeremy, how do you feel about Bill Murray? 1:03:25 - Speaker 6another slam dunk. Saturday night live was a hit show. Chevy was the first breakout star and him coming on During the second season and even that sketch that kind of made him get established. Which is I'm not doing well on the show. I need your help and just even watching that clip all the time was some people call me Billy around here. I get called the new guy, like. It's just just a great way to kind of like, which I think you would see now is like not that, but back in you know, 76, 77. That was a different way of kind of like breaking the zeitgeist and saying like you know, i know you guys aren't really looking at me as the you know the audience. You're thinking of Chevy, but I'm here too. So, kind of like what Darren said, he's just synonymous. He wasn't on the first season. Well, a lot of times people associate him with the first year because he just made such an impact the next four. So bill Murray is an easy one. 1:04:19 - Speaker 2Yeah, he's a de facto Original, not ready for playing primetime player. Honestly, in most people's eyes, jamie is Bill Murray on your ballot, yeah absolutely. 1:04:28 - Speaker 5I was curious to see how long we would get into this before his name came up, so I'm glad it finally has. I think Everyone's gonna have covered it really well. But just I have mad respect for anyone who's put in that kind of like Tough position and keeping in mind how early in the show's era it was. In this day and age We're used to cast coming in and out. But for him to kind of be in that role in the second season of having to replace Somebody, so great and just how he stepped up and is now in conversations of again all time among the all-time great. So respect to him on that. 1:05:00 - Speaker 2Yeah, victoria, we got a Chicago boy here. Does he get your, your vote? 1:05:05 - Speaker 3Yeah, he, yes, he is the blueprint for all of us and I, you know, i'm not gonna add anything new to it, except he is why, partially why I am here today, and also my brother would kill me if I did not have him on my ballot as a as a Born-and-raised Chicago boy himself. 1:05:29 - Speaker 2Bill Murray clean sweep on everybody's ballots h

Bryan Hoskins Phd. PE. Is a professor at Oklahoma State University in the Fire Protection and Safety Engineering Technology program. Topics covered in this episode are myths about evacuation, performance based design, and understanding the intent of codes and standards.   Transcript:    00:02.86 firecodetech Well hello Bryan welcome to the firecode Tech podcast. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you because my pleasure. Awesome. 00:07.56 Bryan Hoskins Thank you guys My pleasure. Glad to be here. 00:13.66 firecodetech Well I always like to get these things started with talking about how you found fire and life safety as a career path. 00:22.41 Bryan Hoskins Well my stories rather interesting I'll give you the short version here because I go on for a long time on this but it's also one I think it's fairly typical in fire protection. Um, and that well there are some people who know about fire protection early on. 00:38.87 Bryan Hoskins I didn't actually discover it until after I was already in college. So I grew up in the San Francisco bay area um and after my junior year. My I have a twin brother so him and I convince our parents to take us on a three week 14 school tour. Um, where we hit schools throughout the entire country. Um that three week tour though was let's say we flew in and out of Nashville and went everywhere from Florida to Massachusetts and through the midwest and everything else. It was a very busy few weeks there. Um. But I know I want to do engineering because I like enjoyed math and science and my senior yearr in high school I had an advanced chemistry elective where well so a prevviewing wifi protection's a good decision. My group everything we did to get to choose their own experiments. Every one of mine groups except for one involves stuff exploding or flames or something else. Another elective I had in high school that I start out and enjoyed was psychology. So what do you do with chemistry fire. And psychology. Well it was obvious then looking back that yes fire protection special life safety was the route I was intended to go but I know I did existed. We happened to stop at the University Of Maryland 01:57.15 firecodetech Are. 02:08.80 firecodetech Wow. 02:11.43 Bryan Hoskins Because my brother was he's the one who actually put Maryland on the list. Um, he really wanted to see it because he was going into aerospace engineering specifically astro there some opportunities there that he didn't that weren't available elsewhere so he put it on the list. 02:27.82 Bryan Hoskins And while we had agreed that neither one of us was going to make the other one decide where they had to go to school. Um, we still end up applying to a lot of the same school so Maryland for me adding it on was something of well this way I mean I did enjoy the campus and if it was something that i. Oh wasn't necessarily a bad one and he really wanted to go there so I put an application but we'd agreed we weren't going to decide based on what the 1 did and then found out about an opportunity I got at Meland that I didn't have anywhere else which was I got accepted in to which I didn't even know this program applied when. Had even applied there but they had what's called the gemstone program which was a 4 year interdisciplinary team research undergraduate team research project in science technology and society and that really appealed to me so it's okay, I'll go to Maryland still no clue that fire protection exists. Um. I also knew I didn't know enough about the engineering field. So I went in undecided engineering and then it oh and I took my time to go and look around at the different majors. Um I know I didn't want to do electrical or computer because that wasn't something that necessarily appealed to me. But. What's the difference mechanical civil aerospace and oh this is fire protectionction 1 let me look at that as well. Um, and as I started to look at it. Some of the big selling points to me. Obviously as I said the okay like fire flames in that chemistry class psychology. 04:01.43 Bryan Hoskins Really fits but 1 of the other big selling points on it to me and this is something that's also true of our program at Osu because Maryland program was founded by an osu alum but when I went to mechanical engineering to talk to them. It was as if I was a number. As I was just sitting there. The advisor said I mean what's the best way to put it later on though I was at an awards banquet a few years later that advisor was hinting out the wordss for mechanical engineering and read off a name and it see well I guess he's not here. She then walked up and so it was such an I mean I had the impression was a number thing and when one of your top students is getting awards you don't even know if they're a male student or a female student and he was the one who is advising everyone. Um. And there was that you're just a number meanwhile with fire protection when I went there I remember meeting with the program head on a Friday afternoon and we had a conversation someone like this one here where it was well let me know what you're interested in. Why were you considering this. Friday afternoon I got there like 4 we talked until about six o'clock so the facts there's a faculty member willing to stay talk to me about the program for a few hours on a Friday afternoon. Um, and there's really that sense of family and community and fire protection which is something that I thought. 05:20.74 firecodetech Wow. 05:36.68 Bryan Hoskins Yes, This is a good fit for me so curriculume lines up then oh the atmosphere lines up and that's how I got into fire protection. So a lot of sort of chances If This hadn't happened that hadn't happened wouldn't be here but I'm very glad that I found it because it is a. Probably the perfect fit for me. 05:55.89 firecodetech Wow, That's awesome means some really neat stuff there in that first just your background piece talking about you know your interests at an early age in chemistry and and fire and then how that like that sense of family and. 06:05.54 Bryan Hoskins With him. 06:12.16 firecodetech In fire and life safety which is something I've always seen people kind of band together because of the just the nature of it and yeah I didn't know that about the okay state being founded by a Maryland lum either that kind of blows my mind because of the tensions between the 2 Oh yeah, yeah. 06:21.28 Bryan Hoskins Me want a way around oh prof Brian who founded the program at Maryland Graduate from Osu. 06:30.64 firecodetech Oh I didn't realize that Wow that's very interesting, Very interesting. Awesome Well to give the listeners a little bit more context Would you speak a little bit about your professional roles and. 06:33.80 Bryan Hoskins Death. 06:50.45 firecodetech Kind of positions that you've held and and how that work has colored your context now as a professor. 06:55.34 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, so in this I'll say 1 thing that I always encourage all of our students do and that's readily offered oh is getting internships so I'll start with some of the internships I had and how that sort of shaped. So my career decisions going forward. So first internship it was right after I had decided I was going to do fire protection because that was my sophomore year summer after Sophomore year I had had 1 fire protection class at that point so not too much in it. But oh. Was going to be home for the summer and wanted to have a meaningful experience and oh from that talk to professor milkke um, at Maryland that spring of the okay I'm going home for this I'm going be home for spring break then home for the summer. Um, I said before I grew up in the San Francisco bay area so the opposite coast of the country and it was so what options do we have out there. Um and he gave me context for 2 different alums that were in the bay area I met with both of them over spring break. Um. And then that led to a job offer from Jensen Hughes or actually at the time it was just cues. Um, because they had some major projects going on that summer where it was smoke control I had never had a smoke control class but they needed someone. 08:26.86 Bryan Hoskins To climb up ladders and make sure dampers had closed um to go through and just do a lot of that type of work which okay, you don't need much in terms of classes and other things to be working on those projects. Um. And because how the schedule went in the month of July I got four days off Sunday the 1st july although that one almost didn't happen and then two of the other sundays um, and each day we were working again at the first job site about 9 am m leaving the last one about midnight one a m. Um, then I had to get home and rinse strike cycle repeat for the entire month. Um, now I was being paid over time for all those extra hours. So it was a very lucrative summer but what I really took away from that 1 um, was just that value of the hands on experience. Because never had smoke control but when I took smoke control later on elderly. Okay, this makes a lot more sense because I've seen it done it and understand what things are and even my class sits today I make sure when talk about smoke control. Okay when we're talking about the special inspector process. Well I was there as the guy was doing it. So here's what people do when they do this rather than as well I read about in a book. Um, but actually having that intimate knowledge there. Um I also while in school um spent a year. Well not quite a year because it was supposed to start. 10:02.91 Bryan Hoskins In the fall of the year when there was the anthrax scare in the capol. So my position got delayed starting a little bit because that same office was dealing with all of that so they couldn't quite take on a student at the start of the semester. Um, but I was working with the congressional office of compliance and that was also a very. Eyeopening experience because dealing with the library of congress buildings dealing with congressional office buildings. There are I mean I got to see an actual halon system while I was there which is something that isn't very common. But there was a lot of understanding of from that sort of hj perspective. How do you do things especially in that environment where there's code compliance but you can't make that building code. Compliant. So how do you have to sort of analyze the hazards and while we weren't doing official performance-based design type of approach. It was that same process of understanding. Okay, what are the hazards what's the intent of the code. How can we make these buildings a situation safe. Enough for oh people to be in the building I was actually the first ever intern that they had hired um and it was a wonderful experience just to see it from that perspective other positions I've had before getting into academia. 11:32.62 Bryan Hoskins Um I spent a year working for Europe um out there San Francisco office doing primarily life safety plan review which again, that's a lot of the okay so how is it that you go about applying things. To the real world. Plus it also helps I think when I have students of well why are you giving us this I had that assigned to me in my first six weeks on the job. You're gonna be graduating soon if they handed it to me. They can hand it to you. So let's get you ready for those things. Um. And again seeing sort of that overall hierarchy of how everything fits together and works together and you have in that office a lot of different trades plus also a lot of the workouts doing with more performance-based design and so really diving into again that sort of. Here's the intent of the code. How can we make sure that our building meets the intent of the code even if we can't quite meet the letter of it. Um, and then the other position I had before oh coming to Osu was working for the national instituteive standards and technology. Nist in the fire research area. Um, and that was a really meaningful experience in that I got to see just when you're trying to look at the problem finding identify. Okay. 13:06.58 Bryan Hoskins Doing research identifying. Okay here's potential issues was it's collecting data here's what the data says um and being able to then bring that back into because National stand technology. It's the department of Commerce and so it's not just doing research for research Sake. It's and now how is this going to be used to help improve things and so that was a big learning experience there as well. 13:34.86 firecodetech So That's awesome. Well I wanted to I see how you know your interests in the commercial more commercial side of things have influenced. So What you research Now. So That's very interesting I like hearing about that. Performance-based design and the different you know real-world application and you know looking back at my time at Osu I can see you know some of the exercises that we did in like you know our life safety class where we're really looking at the building code and functionally going through those. 14:03.64 Bryan Hoskins We. 14:12.16 firecodetech Now I do those every day so I'm very thankful for that background and when I got out into the workforce I could really see how that set okay state grads apart from people who didn't and were just looking at the code for the first time so I just wanted to. 14:25.73 Bryan Hoskins You. 14:29.23 firecodetech You know say thanks for that and then I could see that in your teaching and I and I resonate with that as you're speaking about it now. Um, but yeah. 14:34.87 Bryan Hoskins Us to add on to that I'll just like to add that 1 thing that I've noticed happens. Well a lot in my career is that I try to bring that stuff into the classroom I've had students multiple many times write me like six months after they graduate of. Yeah, when going through your class I didn't understand why you expected us to know all this and do all this at the time thought it was ridiculous again, there's six months in their job. Don't change because it turns out this is what my employer expects so when the students grumble about it. Don't listen to them because what you're doing is a big service to them to help them getting ready for what the career world is rather than just the academic side of things. 15:28.23 firecodetech Yeah, definitely I think that there is a lot of great stuff in the I had you for fire dynamics and the the life safety course and just I mean the fire protection engineering exam is very heavily weighted on that. Fire dynamics. It seems to me and that's a great thing that we could talk about too is your ah recent experience in helping with the sfp prep course but not to get too far off track but it just seems logical in the in the conversation topic. But. 15:52.65 Bryan Hoskins Um. 15:59.45 Bryan Hoskins Yeah. 16:04.34 firecodetech It's all kind of placed together. You know you do it as a practicing engineer or at least a lot of people involved with performance based design do and then it's also in the engineering exam. So all these things kind of dovetail education experience and professional licensure. 16:20.63 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, I'd say it's as so they all dovetail together. Um people sometimes try to think about everything being separate but in reality, everything's always interconnected and woven you can't just focus in on 1 thing. It's always see well this ties into that and here's how everything interconnects and as you mentioned yeah I've been one of the things that I've done professionally is work with the SfPEP exam prep course which is something I very much enjoy because I Think. Talk a little bit more later about all my professional involvement but I think it's very important that oh at least in my position I Realize how much the people before me have done to set it up so where we have the profession that we do. And I think it's very important to give back because I and those again it's more label but part is I Went to back Demo's ability to give back to the profession to have an even bigger impact than I could by just being a consulting engineer for example or. Working in an Hj's office or whatever it is have an opportunity to give back because I realize how much others they've given to me and the P exam prep course is a good example of that because there are many many people who go through that. 17:50.12 Bryan Hoskins Um, and I will say the success rate of students who have taken that course um, who've then gone on to pass pass rates much much higher than the overall pass rate and it's a sizeable percentage of people that are passing or basically taking that course. Because it does get into all the different topics. Um, it's for those students who've been at Osu you've already covered a lot of those topics in your classes and same thing goes to people who might have a degree from Maryland or Wpi or any of the other universities. But. As we all know that's not the majority of people in the field. Most people are there because they've got a degree in something else in those universities while we would love to be having more students. It's getting people to know about it before they come to college or in their first few years 18:33.12 firecodetech Um, yeah. 18:45.90 Bryan Hoskins Um, a lot of people don't discover the field until after they've graduated from college and so for those people who might have been a mechanical engineer by nature who so then they get hired by a firm that oh well, you can do air movement. So here start doing this vent work for a. Smoke control system or okay, you know fluids and pipes here you're gonna be doing sprinklers and so then they learn their one specific area but not all the others and the area I've been teaching though for the P exam Prep courses. Well both on passive Fire protection. Um, which is one that. But even a lot of people who've gone through some of those other programs in Osu don't have a deep knowledge base in um, what? well as to human behavior and have helped with the means of egress one as Well. So very much in just. Teaching people about okay here's what it means and like I do in my classes I tend to focus more on why things are the way they are in the codes and standards or how to approach problems and less on these sort of well here memorize these rules. Um. The reason being is that and I know number of us who have taught for the P Exam prep course we've had this conversation but is the intent of the course when you're teaching something like that just a get ready for the test or is it about. 20:19.70 Bryan Hoskins Giving people the knowledge base they need to be successful in the field and I will sound that one while we are I said very good success rate and give people ready for the exam but there's also a lot of emphasis on not just here here's the question learn how to do these particular skills and then you're done. It's. Really trying to make sure that the people who go through that have a better understanding of what it means to be a fire protection engineer um not just that they can do certain problems because there's other P Exam Prep course is out there that are much more of that you just want to learn how to do problems. They'll do that. Um. 20:47.73 firecodetech Yeah, yeah. 20:56.27 Bryan Hoskins But personally I prefer the approach that sfpe has taken which is why that's the one I'm been working with um which is much more that holistic. Let's tell you what you need to know and in the process you'll get better for the exam. But ultimately I want. People who graduate from Osu that have been in my classes or who take that p exam prep course or any other professional development course that I teach is I want them to be able to go out and be a better professional. Not well I put in my time got the checkbox and so now it's time to move on. 21:34.11 firecodetech Yeah I Know what you mean? Yeah,, That's a good point I like the sentiment of understanding the deeper meaning why and the more I get into my professional career the more I'm impressed by professionals that don't just can't aren't just regurgitating code. You know, but they understand the deeper meaning and the intent and and have the ability to push back when the official is is not asking for something that is not you know with what the intent of the code What is asking and so. Think that's very important the more you get into the profession is to understand why and not just be a code Jockey somebody who just you know is very lawyeristic I mean you have to be but um, you need both. But yeah. 22:22.29 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, yeah, and I'll also add to that one especially at Osu which the reason why there I'm even more stressing why things are the way they are done is I like to point out to students of one. The codes are always changing. Um, if you memorize all you're doing is memorizing numbers or something like that. Well what if you know the say twenty eighteen edition of the Ibc and then you're on the 21 edition of Nfpa one one. What's going on in those 2 but from a life safety standpoint the numbers change maybe well gray areas might shift one way or the other. But what's going on. There is no different love them. We get to the 2033 edit of the code I can guarantee you that there will be major differences from what there are now not necessarily sure what. 23:06.85 firecodetech And. 23:19.16 Bryan Hoskins Those are going to be um, but we know that they're going to change over time and if all that you ever do is memorize. Okay, here's what this one particular section is right now that doesn't give you the flexibility when you're going to the different additions of the code. Plus let's say you get. A project 1 time. That's overseas. Well you have to meet their code but you also have to consider from a life safety standpoint and what's going on there and are you actually meeting the temp because the intent of the codes. That's pretty much stable. We're not seeing Matt change. 1 addition to the next. And so understanding those helps with performance-based design helps when you end up in different jurisdictions. Um, and yeah, ultimately it's gonna make you a better professional if you understand why rather than simply relying on the what. 24:13.52 firecodetech Yeah, that's a good point and you never know you know whether you're going to be working on a department of defense job or a V a job or a fm you know, global criteria job where the criteria is going to shift so dramatically that. 24:23.93 Bryan Hoskins Um, okay. 24:31.51 firecodetech You know if you don't have your fundamentals rock solid Then you're just gonna just be totally unwired in your capability to design or function in that space So is very important and um, but yeah, so let's talk about. 24:40.70 Bryan Hoskins Never. 24:47.77 firecodetech Your role now at Osu and we've alluded to it several times already. But um, ah, you know how you're a professor now and a little bit of background on the program at ok state of course go poke. So I'll always like to um. Promote the program when I get a chance to. 25:06.91 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, so oh Oklahoma State University has the oldest still active fire protection program in the nation. Um, so we've been around a long time longer than any of the others and it was founded. Originally. Um, to well teach some of the basics of fire protection then as study changed and Osha came into existence the program adding the safety con component. Now we have some students who think it's fire protection or safety. Um, but the facts you like to emphasis. It's fire protection and safety. Um a lot of what gets done in the fire protection realm in the safety realm you're doing a lot of the same basic things. Um. And so it's easy to transition from one to the other. They're not 2 distinct things. They're really in both cases you're trying to identify hazards trying to identify mitigation strategies for those hazards and then it just comes down to that specific application that you're applying it to. Um, but I will say the 1 thing that I think osu does better than any of the other programs I am biased here, but it's very much. It's an engineering technology program and engineering technology. What. 26:38.74 firecodetech Um, yeah. 26:41.70 Bryan Hoskins Separates that is it's far more based on the hands on so in our program majority of the classes that are in major have a lab component. So the students get to go actually touch feel experience see. Whaters arere talking about. They're not just reading about it in a book. Um, and I think that's a very valuable skill set to have um, going back to said earlier of learn about smoke control being able to go into buildings and see. Those dampers operating and seeing how the special inspection was going helped me understand that far more than just reading about in a book does um and so I think that's one of the big advantages to the Osu program is that hands on applied. Oh part of the program. And not just pure theory now as far as what I've taught there what I cover. Um, okay I've just said it's not it's fire and safety. That being said I tend to teach classes are a little bit more fire focused because that's. I got my degree. Oh that's also I mean I'm a professional fire protection and I'm a professional licensed fire protection engineer. So yeah, that's my main area but as far as that goes oh my first semester at Osu I was teaching. 28:11.19 Bryan Hoskins Butker design and oh the at the time called structural design for fire and life safety where it covered passive fire protection and nfpa one one basically put the building code passive fire protection nfpa one a one and human behavior all into one course. 28:29.61 firecodetech Our shit. 28:30.65 Bryan Hoskins Um, we have since split that up some because it was about too too many important Concepts all being crammed into one course. Um so I've taught I said taught their own passive life safety Human behavior. 28:49.83 Bryan Hoskins And building code all at once then the next semester added in human factors. Um, which okay, that's not fire protection but it's closely related to a lot of things I do which is looking at human response and emergencies. 29:09.50 Bryan Hoskins Um, and so it ties in very much directly with the research and again life safety side that I've been interested in after that because of some changes in faculty and other changes I taught oh and continue to teach The. So suppression detection course. Um that covers as again as's one as class we put probably too much in at first because it's the only class in the major on fire alarms. The only class in the major that covered special Hazards um and covered the start of Sprinkler systems. 29:46.58 Bryan Hoskins All into one course. Um, now we split off that special Hazards more into an elective which I teach Um, that's also available as a grad course and that suppression detection class has shifted to being still the introduction to sprinkler systems as well as much more on fire alarms. 29:54.25 firecodetech Um. 30:04.61 Bryan Hoskins And just how codes and standards operate and work then I also as you mentioned earlier top fire dynamics for a few years um as just as best fit for who was on faculty at the time be teaching that I've taught oh smoke control. 30:24.36 Bryan Hoskins Um, and oh yeah, so that's pretty much everything on the pe exam prep course except for I haven't yet got fluids because of just other faculty have gotten that one. Um, but I've covered so much of What's on the p exam but I also think it's important. Um for someone who's a professor to have taught that wide range because 1 in order to understand if you can understand you you can teach something you have to understand it. Um, and. Because if you're trying to teach and you don't understand it. It's going to be a failure for everyone at that point. Um and so having that is good plus by having that bread. Of course that I've taught I mean and you might remember this from some of the class but routinely point out. And then in this class here's how this ties together and then in this class. Oh so bringing in those connections which you know best when? okay, very taught that class. So okay, well in that class. You did this here's how that's relevant here because far too often students. Um, which they learn better than this when they get older but students a lot of times view the class that say okay I have to learn this stuff for the test and then I can immediately forget it and never have to know it again. Um, and they don't. 31:57.57 Bryan Hoskins See all those interconnections but the as many of your listeners probably know as you get into a real profession even if oh there's one area that you primarily work in you don't just use the 1 class and that's it. You're having to pull in multiple things all through it. Everything's interconnected and so by teaching all those things it makes it even easier for me to point out to the students directly. Okay, you covered that here. That's how this applies here. So if you need to go back and review what was there this would be a good time to do it. To just tie in this entire experience of learning. Um rather than viewing it as a bunch of separate individual steps. 32:43.64 firecodetech Oh yeah, That's a great point because our profession is notorious for being just widespread I mean mechanical systems electrical systems life safety and you're looking at building construction and paci fire protection and So. You're you the whole profession is based on being a jack of all trades. So. 33:09.42 Bryan Hoskins Yeah, and I will say earlier I'd mentioned how I end up fire protection. The one part I meant to add in there as well is to just echo what you said is one of the other things that that to our conversation with the program had um that drew me in was that. You had to be f like we have to pull in all these different things because just personally I prefer having to okay I can use stuff from Psychology Sociology and human Behavior. So You have to understand that you have to understand the mechanical civil. As but to a lot of other majors where you end up being much more siloed you're not using as many different things and that required breath was something that definitely peeled to me because it was yes, there's more to this field. More opportunities more career paths that are available than in some of the others. 34:09.67 firecodetech That's a great point. Yeah, it's definitely a good career for somebody who likes to be interested in in varied pursuits and very engineering so varied engineering systems because. I Mean there's just so many different things you could look at especially I mean people get into product fire protection and Ul listings and ah fm approvals I mean so you could be looking at fire and lie safety characteristics about anything in the built environment and then also and in the product market as Well. So if you. 34:23.49 Bryan Hoskins Given. 34:39.67 Bryan Hoskins And that's one of the big advantages of yeah and I would say that's also one of the big advantages to the Osu program because it ties in again, both bar protection and safety. We've had many alums that they start out going down one path. 34:42.57 firecodetech If you want variety. It's integrate trade. 34:57.89 Bryan Hoskins And then go down something completely different and then get us something else because of what opportunities come up and just having that Osu degree has opened up doors that a lot of the other people just didn't have available to them because of how special our program is and. All the different things that it touches on it really gives someone many different options for where they want their career to go. 35:27.66 firecodetech There's a great point yet fire protection has awesome career opportunity and I love that point also about that you said about the hands on nature of the experience at Oklahoma state because as a professional you know. Everything looks good on paper and so you can design something and think oh yeah, it looks great. It meets all the code criteria. Well it doesn't fit in the room so you need to think about what does this physically look like and so I think that's a very important distinction to make that. Physical and corporeal manifestation of these fire and life safety features are just as important as their code compliance. But so I wanted to break into a little bit of your expertise in. 36:12.79 Bryan Hoskins Um. 36:21.65 firecodetech Um, evacuation and sort of your research topics. But I know that you have a big interest in these areas and just I was reading some of your technical one of the. Papers or pieces of work that you put out I'm not as well versed in like how to analyze or read literature this produce in Academia but I was trying and doing some research for the show. But I'd love to talk about? um. 37:00.70 firecodetech Just evacuation and what you're researching now and get into your professional expertise. 37:04.22 Bryan Hoskins Okay, so I where I've taught everything but my and as far as again so that ging also I'll touch on that sort of Breadth of knowledge of my senior research project. Was on passive fire protection looking at the effect of missing spray applied material on a steel. Trust my master thesis was on oh characterizing the flow from a foam nozzle. Um, both of those were based on the K which projects are available which projects have funding sure I can do that. Um, but good experiences. But for the Ph D I knew I needed to do something that was going to be what I enjoy because if you're going to torture of yourself to go through that process of getting a Ph D which I've done it and I still think anyone who does it is partially Insane. Um. There's no other real rational explanation there? Um, but going through that I knew it had to be something that I would enjoy because if you're spending that many years that diving that deep on a topic. 38:02.89 firecodetech Um. 38:14.62 Bryan Hoskins If it's not something that you truly have a passion about it's not going to end up Well um, and my passion I knew was in the area of human behavior and fire. Um I said Psychology Oh in high school tying that in. 38:21.00 firecodetech Yeah. 38:31.93 Bryan Hoskins And also life safety. Why am I in this field. Ultimately when I think about it's to help people. Um, it's what I want to do and not that designing a sprinkler system isn't helping people. It is um because you're keeping them safe when there's a fire. But looking at that human aspect and understanding how people behave and respond um is something that was very much of a yes this is something I need to be doing with my career. This is the avenue I want to go down. Um, and so my. Matt for my ph d um I spent a few years going through some stairwell building evacuations. Um, basically going frame by frame tracking what people were doing other people. 39:27.57 Bryan Hoskins Again, going back to the insane part thought that I can sit there day after day going frame by frame getting over 10000 data points collected from this. Um, that's to say they wouldn't have done it themselves but gingling back to that hands on part of it. What I found most valuable about that. Um was going through that I got a much better understanding and feel for what was going on there because if all that you have is numbers k engineers give me numbers. Give me. Oh. Excel or Spss Or Saft or one of those and I can spit out stuff I can get answers. But in the research field. 1 of the things that a lot of us. Well everyone knows is you can get numbers. But. The job of the researcher is to understand what those numbers mean and to put them into practice. Um, and so one of the I mentioned this in my class a lot but with human behavior and fire pretty much everything that we discover and new is not anything that. 40:24.79 firecodetech Are a. 40:41.81 Bryan Hoskins Is ever the Wow How is that true I would never have expected that it's always see Yeah, that's how things are but yet we've been designing not with that for years and I'll get into some examples of that um tuna. Well. 40:47.98 firecodetech Here. 40:57.19 firecodetech Um, and. 41:00.39 Bryan Hoskins First of all I'll talk about this is predates me but 1 of the big myths in human behavior is myth of panic because there was actually for years and years and years was you don't tell people what's going on in a building when there's a fire because they'll start to panic. Panics irrational anti-social behavior. Basically someone starts standing there frozen in fear or shoving other people all the way and so on you can find lots of examples of this in hollywood clips. Um, actually one lab in by safety I play a bunch of clips from Tv and movies showing how. They portray evacuation of fire and then find clips on like Youtube of how it actually responds um in that. What do we see the fire alarm goes off if people get up because that's just a drill I can just ignore this if they get up. They're walking orderly patiently letting other people pass them even when we look at oh case studies of real fires same thing so there was no reason to keep that information from people. But that's what the industry thought was everyone's going to panic. Um. Or there's another example that again predates me. But um, this one's 1 found by Prof Brian that again is not surprising but early code development and requirements were based on everyone would just walk out the building and that's basically's a fluid particle and that's how it would be. 42:37.54 Bryan Hoskins He came up with this Oh when he studied the Runndo Park fire. This revolutionary thing parents will go in after their children if they're left behind and they can't find them oh because parents went back in for their children that burning building or other people went in to rescue friends and other things rather than just the back wing outside and. That was revolutionary at the time but yet no one's also shocked that wait a parent would go after their kid. It's more the wait. Why would anyone think otherwise but that's what the industry did at the time so in my dissertation One of the big findings I had there. Um that has. 43:06.59 firecodetech Um, well. 43:15.64 Bryan Hoskins Changed how oh we approach some things is since I said it's looking at people back wing downstairs when you walk downstairs. You don't go straight make a ninety degree return go across make a ninety degree turn and go down. It's more of an arc a semicircle type shape around the landing I even remember talk to my advisor about this and it see are you sure so then pull up the videos. Yep and when I bring it up in class now I'm yet to find it tune of no no I walk down and make those sharp angles. Okay, well let me phrase it I've then had students when we did things onstairs walk that way simply to prove a point but it doesn't happen in real life and so that's thing a lot of this st in human behavior and fire is just pointing that out. Um, also say 1 thing I've done a number of. Talks and talk about human behavior and fire is mentioned okay, imagine the scenario you are sitting in an airport a major metropolitan airport. One of those hub airports and the fire alarm goes off oh what are you going to do. And then play a video that's on Youtube of a fire at one of the major hub airports and was it show and you can pull this up yourself from multiple different airports multiple different places. Other things was it show. Everyone's sitting there. Oh no, 1 ne's trying to get back through security. 44:49.42 Bryan Hoskins Um, to have to cross back through and every time I've talked to people is that what you expect all but well all, but basically 1 time have I had people say yeah, that's what I expected. The 1 time was talking to a bunch of politicians. And they were shocked that not everyone listened to the directions. Um I guess politicians have a different perspective on things but everyone else is the yeah that doesn't surprise me. That's what I'm used to That's why I expect the announcement comes on and people ignore it. And so that then gets into and I've done research in this area as well. Not just the movement but also looking at how do we effectively get information to people what is needed to get them to go from that just sitting there to actually starting to evacuate and so. How is it that the notification process works getting time back into that human behavior and fire area. 45:52.91 firecodetech Yeah,, That's very interesting I Definitely think Politicians have a different view of reality. But that's ah off topic. Um, that's but ah, another thing I was just thinking about and I didn it to. Provide this before this might be I don't know if you'll have an answer for this but I had a question about like performance based design versus a more prescriptive design and I know that the answer is probably it depends. But. 46:28.50 Bryan Hoskins Nothing. 46:30.60 firecodetech If you could give any insight to which one of these methods have greater allowances for life safety or if there is a break even point in building size or complexity where that might be. 46:49.39 Bryan Hoskins So you're right? The answer is it depends. Um, it's actually it's difficult in that I don't think that there is a specific point of. 46:51.26 firecodetech That's a difficult. 47:02.92 Bryan Hoskins Okay, when you get to this may square foot this many dollar figure. Whatever metric of sort of a cut and dry line. Um, because for example, New Zealand at one point went to everything had to be performance based and that did not work so well. 47:21.98 Bryan Hoskins Um, but everything being prescriptive does not work. Well either. And really if we look at and I talk about this in life safety. So this is not really too far with stretch for a question I so of already know my answer in advance and actually talking about this. Just. Yesterday in class when we look at the prescriptive code. The prescriptive code is in many ways a performance base code and hear me out on this when we look at the prescriptive code. Where do numbers like maximum travel distance come from number of exits come from. Well it's based on golden objectives that could set so nfpa 1 one for example, is anyone not into most fire shall be kept safe long enough to evacuate relocate. Um, or defend in place and so you can see that similarity to okay and you're doing performance space design you have to come up with your goals and objectives and that's very easily one that's going to be there anyone not into with fire shall be kept safe. 48:35.34 Bryan Hoskins And then if we look at the code how they okay theoretically where did numbers like travel distance. Oh come from. Well it's based on a typical building. We'll have this type of fuel loading in it and that's why it's different for chakmancy in part. Um, so here's the expected fuel loading here's the expected ceiling height. Oh therefore the time until the smoke layer descends to where people are at should be about this much time we know the speed people walk at put in a safety factor there. And so with this setup everyone will be out safely before the fire becomes too big now I say theoretical. That's where it comes from because I think most of its numbers actually came from people at a conference room 1 time going. Okay, we need to come up with a number. Okay, that 1 looks good. Let's see there. Um, but. In theory where it comes from its at so like the ockment load factors where do they come from going out studying a building counting the number of people getting the dimensions and adapting it for that. So the prescriptive code. It's very good. For a building that's similar to that assumed building and many of our buildings are because you're dealing with okay seven foot 6 to ten foot ceiling heights not too much different. The commodities in them are gonna be about the same people in them. We can start to come up with those. 49:56.10 firecodetech Um, and. 50:03.47 firecodetech Naning. 50:09.32 Bryan Hoskins Methods to approximate what it's going to be and as far as the having the committee then set what the minimum standard is saves a lot of time and effort because if every project has to be performance based.. That's a significant time investment. Um, for all the stakeholders involved and for a simple 3 story office building where they're building 50 of them in the town type of thing. Why go through each one of those projects and have to do that when the prescriptive code works very well for that. It saves time effort money. So for a simple building that's sort of meeting what that stereotypical building sort of underlying the prescriptive descriptive codes is just do prescriptive but a number of the numbers in the prescriptive code. 51:03.20 firecodetech Um, appreciate that. 51:07.94 Bryan Hoskins And mentioned in class yesterday they're arbitrary what I mean by that is let's say I have 500 people in a room I can have two doors out of there and it's perfectly acceptable by code perfectly safe I put in 1 more person. 51:16.60 firecodetech Um, yeah. 51:25.42 Bryan Hoskins Point two percent change in the occupant load that one person I now have to put in a third exit door have I really changed the safety in that building by changing the augment load by 0.2% that I now have to. Put in a third door. No 501 peoples meet just as safe as five hundred with two exits there's not any study date or anything 500 is round number and that's the number they got picked now I'm not saying that 500 bad number I'm saying it's an arbitrary number and that's the advantage to performance space design on 1 project that I worked on. Um while at europe there was a large casino. Um, that was being proposed to be built and to make it work. 52:05.63 firecodetech Yeah. 52:21.51 Bryan Hoskins They're gonna have to have some like 12 or 13 stairs to meet travel distance requirements scattered throughout that floor. The owner did not like that idea why for security reasons putting in a lot of stair shafts makes dead spaces and security becomes a problem also just the. Um, beyond that they wanted there so you can look across the room and see the person winning way over there. Um, so that way you felt like you could be winning at your table so they wanted that more open area and travel distance is meaningful for a normal building. 52:43.55 firecodetech My kids. 52:58.79 Bryan Hoskins But let's think about against one of those major Las Vegas casino type places you have a huge floor plan. So how long is it going to take the smoke to descend all the way down to where the people are at and the answer was a very long time I went to the fire modeling to. Determine what it was but it was in excess of 20 minutes um and so then if we can get everyone out of there by just putting in I think we had doing so like 4 5 6 stairs at the different outside of the building. It gets the owner what they want. 53:37.15 Bryan Hoskins And we're gonna get everyone out of that building safe if there's a fire I have no doubt about that in my mind. Um, why because that building's not a typical building the wide open floor plan made it different and ultimately what's the goal of the fire protection Community. Keep people safe in the event of a fire. So As long as we can keep people safe in the event of a fire then well that's what matters and so that's what we need to be able to show and so and why prohibit the owner from doing something. If. It's going to be safe to do it and so that's the advantage performance base design when the uniqueness of the architecture or materials being used will still lead to the same level of safety as the base code provides. Then it should be our job as practicing engineers in the field of life safety Fire protection. Um, but to make sure that those building owners can do the things that they want to do can use their buildings the way they want to do but doing it in a safe way. And that's what performance spaces design and allows us to do and so I'm not gonna I say I'm not go set a specific dollar figure or a square footage or anything else. But if the prescriptive code does not meet the owner's desires then the performance based design becomes an option. 55:12.44 Bryan Hoskins To be able to allow them to do what it is. They want to do and if they just want to go prescriptive because that's goingnna be a less expensive option. That's their choice. Um, but if or if they have just set in a more building and the prescriptive code works fine then great. Shown that it's safe enough. But for those unique designs for those buildings where they want to do something a little bit different then that's our job to make it so where they can accomplish their goals but do it in a way that's safe. 55:34.36 firecodetech Um, and. 55:48.11 firecodetech I Appreciate that. That's a perspective on performance based design I don't think I've heard before I don't have as much experience with it. But I appreciate that sentiment In. You know how that discretion call and really understanding the factors of what safety level that the prescriptive code provides and matching that calculated or performance-based design methods is very interesting but. 56:25.41 firecodetech Anyways, well I just want to wrap things up and say thank you for talking Brian I could talk to you for another 2 hours probably you've been just a a walt of knowledge on and we didn't even get to speak about your professional society involvement more and. Your thoughts on the industry and where things are going but I want to be mindful of what you got planned today and maybe we can have you on that in the future again to cover some of those topics. 56:51.17 Bryan Hoskins Absolutely be happy to. It's great talking to and again you bring on a professor I get paid to talk for a living so always enjoy talking about the industry of the field and doing everything we can to help promote it continues to that growth. 57:08.57 firecodetech Definitely well I appreciate it. You make it easy on me which I enjoy of course but alrighty we'll we'll wrap it up. 57:12.10 Bryan Hoskins Thank you.  

ANT-MAN AND THE WASP: QUANTUMANIA I never expected the Ant-Man movies to make it to three, even with Paul Rudd's inexhaustible charm. I DEFINITELY never expected the third film to be the one that opens wide the gates on the major villain for the Multiverse Saga. But here we are. The whole ant-family reunites and… Read More »Highly Suspect Reviews: Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania

ANT-MAN AND THE WASP: QUANTUMANIA I never expected the Ant-Man movies to make it to three, even with Paul Rudd's inexhaustible charm. I DEFINITELY never expected the third film to be the one that opens wide the gates on the major villain for the Multiverse Saga. But here we are. The whole ant-family reunites and… Read More »Highly Suspect Reviews: Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania

Admittedly, breathwork is a healing  modality that I knew almost NOTHING about until a year ago - and I DEFINITELY had a ton of resistance towards experiencing it (you'll hear all about THAT in this episode) ... and yet, once I got over my resistance, I discovered healing on an entirely new level, both physically and emotional. In this episode, Laura LaRoque ~ breathwork guru ~ explains all the ins & outs of breathwork, such as how to do it, why to do it and how it can almost magically transform your life. To learn more about Laura, visit:https://www.therevivedcouple.com/https://www.instagram.com/therevivedcouple/https://www.facebook.com/therevivedcouple

Answering the rest of your questions about hitting $500k total revenue in under 2 years! Some of the questions I'm answering are:

Happy weekend, bestie!Welcome to the FINAL episode of Psyche Saturday!

Episode Notes The guest Gregg can be found on twitter at @greggawatt. The host Margaret Killjoy can be found on twitter @magpiekilljoy or instagram at @margaretkilljoy. You can support her and this show on Patreon at patreon.com/margaretkilljoy. Transcript Live Like The World is Dying: Suburban Organizing Margaretkilljoy Hello and welcome to Live Like The World Is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm your host Margaret Kiljoy, and I use she or they pronouns and this week I'll be talking to a friend of mine named Gregg about suburban organizing and suburban preparedness because we've had a bunch of episodes on urban stuff and we've had some episodes on rural stuff and those aren't the only places that people live. Some people live in the intersection between the rural and the urban or the sub-urban as it is sometimes referred to. In fact, a lot of people live there. I grew up there. Which, I guess I should just own. I think I say that in the episode, so you know it's like supposed to be this like dirty secret, but the suburbs are are far more interesting and complex than people give them credit for in media. And so here is going to be Gregg talking about that, and I think you'll get a lot out of it, even if it's not where you live. This podcast is a proud member of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts and here's a jingle from another show on the network. Da da duh duuuh. 00:00.00 Margaretkilljoy Okay if you could introduce yourself with your name, your pronouns, and then I guess kind of a little bit about your story. How did you come into suburban organizing? 00:53.82 Gregg Yeah, my name's Gregg. I go by Greggawatt on the internet, most places. My pronouns are he/him, and yeah, I have been a lifelong anarchist. I don't want to call myself an organizer, but I have been somebody who is always...I cannot stand still and I always have to be doing something and getting involved in some project, and during the pandemic I decided to move out to a little bit further out from the the city and move into the suburbs, mainly to get more space, to garden, and of course it didn't last long until I was trying to figure out like, “Okay, how do I find people I can connect with to work on stuff.” 01:38.60 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, and and I mean it's it's funny because one of the main questions I get asked all the time at my show I'm always talking about the importance of community and and for the most part I mean my neighbors know who I am, but I don't like hang out with them all that much. You know, I'm sort of a shy, introverted transgirl in a rural environment personally, and and so people always ask “How do you talk to the people around you?” and there's it's sort of an implied difference between the sort of the political radical and then the people around you. And, everyone no matter your environment, you always think it's sort of unique to your environment. You know the, the main concern people have in rural environments is, you know the Trump supporters who live around you or something like that and and my rude assumption is that what you have around you would be like sort of do-good-er liberals who are on like Next Door too much or something, and so I guess I'm wondering, what is the political environment that you're around and and how does that influence talking to people and how do you deal with that? 02:43.89 Gregg Yeah, so I'm in the Bay area so that makes the the conversation a little bit different than it might be in in some other areas, but it's it's definitely it's a mix. So, there is your Liberals. The mayor of the the city that I'm in is a Progressive. And you know, advocates for affordable housing. That's his, has been his whole job, his whole life. He's working in affordable housing. So you have like a mayor who's very progressive. Um, and then you have liberals. You have Biden supporters, and then you also have your Blue Lives Matter types. 03:11.72 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 03:22.36 Gregg They have….There's Blue Lives Matter flags in my neighborhood. You know and they, and and there's a lot of American flags, more American flags than I think I've ever seen in my life, but you know, especially around the fourth of July, and you know then every once in a while there'll be a gay flag. You know, a rainbow flag, or there's, there was a lot of Black Lives Matter signs last year when in 2020, Summer 2020, when we first moved here. Um, and that I think was just like the whole country was sort of getting, getting on board with that. But, there is also a good contingent of like your anti-vaxer Q'anon Trump supporter types, who you know, for example...so one of, one of the things that I've gotten involved in doing organizing out here is there is a Black Lives Matter group that is local. One of the projects that they've taken on is trying to get the 1619 Project to be taught in the schools. Well, if you know anything about the current environment of like school board politics, the Right is crying about teaching kids critical race theory, which the 1619 Project is not critical race theory. Critical race theory isn't even taught in in schools in any form, but it raises this this tension now like where you know, one of the main organizing tools right now is to go to school board meetings, and make sure that you have a voice there every single meeting, to have somebody there who's like "Yes, you should still be doing this this project. Yes, you should still be looking at the curriculum, and making it more true to the American history." And then you have people on the Right who are against masks who ah, who use the the the keywords of like critical race theory and what-not. So yeah, it's kind of a wild ah mix of of people,and so like you have to deal with with people who are never going to be on your side, and that's a difficult thing to deal with coming from like a more urban center where like the worst you would have to deal with is like a Democrat who's a little bit too much into Hillary. 05:46.43 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, yeah, I think suburban Blue Lives Matter people are like scarier to me than rural ones and I...you know, it's like I've had these conversations with like my neighbors where like, I'm wearing a dress and they have a gun on their hip, and I'm like “Ahh, this is fine," but I feel like in my head the suburban ones, and maybe this is, I don't know, I have this presumption that they would be... uhhh... that I would have less class alignment with them or that, you know like, like people talk about Trump's base as the rural white poor, and my impression is that Trump's base, like in terms of actually who got him elected is the upper middle class rural and suburban white you know folks. Is that, is that accurate? I mean am I completely off... Ah, like the idea of suburban Blue Lives Matter people just actually are way scarier to me. 06:42.97 Gregg Yeah, when you're in the suburbs you're going to be coming across people who are more affluent and so yeah, you had, you would hit the nail on the head there. There is, there's like much less, you would have much less in common with somebody who is a a suburban Blue Lives Matter type. Because they they are well off, they, you know, they have they have a house, and they pay their taxes, and they you know support their police, and like it's it's a little scarier I would say. And I think that you get less of that feeling of like, and I'm talking out of never been living in in rural America, but like I get this feeling, more feeling, of like there's a self, there's a self-reliance aspect that I as an Anarchist can like vibe with. 07:32.89 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 07:38.50 Gregg I can be like "Yeah, you just want people to leave you alone and like do your own thing.” That's cool, but I get like in the suburbs, there's like a feeling that everything should cater to you and that's from the schools, to the city, to the police, to all of these city services that like you... It's very individualistic. Like to get anywhere you have to get in a car and drive 07:58.85 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 07:59.00 Gregg Unless you just want to walk around your neighborhood. And that I think really changes your outlook in some ways. Yeah. 08:07.67 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, that ah, that entitlement, the 'entitled to everything working for you,' I think that's what makes it scary is because like, someone who is in the process of losing power is at their most volatile in a way where, I don't know, people who are sort of used to not really having power over the people around them probably are less interested in wielding power over the people around them. You know, as compared to I mean homeowners associations. I think my my first inkling of like Libertarianism as a kid... Definitely went through a teenage Libertarian phase until I found out what a horrible thing Capitalism was. It was the 90's. Whatever. And and the first thing that ever made me aware of it was homeowners associations, because when I was a kid I grew up in the suburbs and I was like, "Well what do you mean we can't paint our house like pink with purple polka dots. It's our, it's our house. Like why would that be anyone else's business?" And the idea of living somewhere where your business is everyone's business seems really weird to me. But... 09:13.86 Gregg Yeah, luck, Yeah luckily I don't have an HOA near me because I probably would have already pissed them off by by tearing up my lawn. But yeah, I mean, there's there's HOAs around here and so to go into some of the the organizing that I've been able to do is that there is a measure in the city to put up license plate readers and I am somebody who has been anti-surveillance for ever-- 09:38.66 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 09:51.78 Gregg --And this was something that the local Black Lives Matter group was against. The Progressive groups saw a problem with it as well, and it was something that I was like "Okay I mean. I need to figure this out a little bit and see what what's going on," and so I just, I emailed the police department I was like "Hey, what's up with these cameras." And, um, it was a startup that they went with, and they answered some of my questions. But, then I like did a follow up of like "Hey, did you have a, uh, request for proposals? Did you talk to any other companies? And then he just stopped talking to me. I was like "Well guess what, I have the government on my side." So I did a Freedom Of Information Act request for this information and was able to get a lot of good data about the the relationship between the company and the, and the, and the City. And, uhm, the proposal still went through, sadly, but it was able to get people together, and posting about it online. You could see people in the city being like, "Yeah, I don't want these cameras around. Why do we even need these?" And, the HOAs actually were the ones to push for the cameras first, because the HOAs bought these cameras from this particular company. 10:58.14 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 10:59.92 Gregg And got them set up. And then the company used these HOAs as an example of like "Hey, we've already deployed these in your city in these HOAs. It's not that much more to do a few more around the city. So yeah, the surveillance company was able to actually, you know, win that contract with some of those arguments. Sadly. But, it just shows that like HOAs are are sort of these entities that that can be testing grounds for increased policing and increased surveillance that is later going to be used as examples of like, "Hey this is something that works," especially in a suburban context where HOAs do have political power, and are able to kind of control space in that way. Yeah, that was interesting. 11:46.47 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, that I guess that doesn't surprise me that they they tie in together like that. But, with the organizing you did against it, I mean one of the things I think about as you say that it's like...like organizing isn't necessarily about winning. Winning is really nice, and we should always try to win. But, usually it seems to be about like bringing people together and sort of gathering power and recognizing the ways in which...so the fact that you can use that to make in-roads with different uhh parts of your community seems like, you know, "the real treasure was the friends we met along the way," or whatever is absolutely true with organizing. 12:23.52 Gregg Definitely, yeah, like, and again, I hate...I don't consider myself an activist. I don't. I have criticisms of of Activism, but I am like a Do-ist. Like, I want to be doing the work that I want to see in the world. 12:36.47 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 12:42.55 Gregg I Think like, 1) if if you're somebody who like finds yourself in an area where you have no people with your political affinity. I think part of it is just like finding people who are doing the thing. Like you don't necessarily need to find everybody who's like a Leftist or an Anarchist, but you know there are groups in my city who do, you know, sustainability gardening. So they go to people's houses and they rip up their lawns. That's extremely-- 13:14.57 Margaretkilljoy That's cool. 13:18.86 Gregg --Yeah. That's extremely in my...in my interests. And when I first moved here I was like "Yes, that's something that I want to do. I want to learn about it," and so I did I went to one of their sessions and like ripped up somebody's lawn and spread mulch and that was like really satisfying and then like making those connections with people of just like yeah this is... we're building the world. We want to live in. We're planting fruit trees. We're, you know, bringing back the pollinators and whatnot. And like, it's also a two-edged situation that like this group doing this work is actually really important because the city itself raises their water rates, and is going to raise them again, and so people are now thinking about like "Oh crap. Like, I can't actually sustain the kind of water usage that I need. I need to actually change my...what I'm doing." 14:04.77 Margaretkilljoy Because like lawns are one of the biggest water sinks, right? 14:16.86 Gregg Yeah, and they're just useless, but like you know, and so like doing that work and connecting with those people I think is, is, was really important. And like it was also you know around the cameras . It was finding like, of course, like the the groups that cared about racial justice, of course they were going to be against this, because they don't want police to be able to harass people even though there's like stories in the New York Times about this particular camera company being used to harass people, Ah um, you know, um and get their data. But, and that's fine, and I was able to meet a lot of people through that process. And, it's like building those relationships with people who aren't like, they probably have never read Emma Goldman, and that's fine, but we're all we're all doing the same sort of work. 14:50.61 Margaretkilljoy Hahah 14:56.10 Gregg And they, and, when, when things get bad, which they will, having those connections I think is is really important. Like, I've been able to meet people around my neighborhood and and it's really important to just like we... I've just been like, "Hey, let's hang out." And, so we'll bring over food. We'll bri-- we'll, we'll bring over like you know some drink, and we'll just chat and be very cordial. But now it's like, "Okay I know you. I know where you're at we know each other. We recognize each other when we see each other we wave." Like yeah, I've been able to meet like most of the the houses around me and especially like my next door neighbors, and be like "Hey, if you need anything, let me know. Hey are you doing okay? Oh, hey, you have fig trees or you have apple trees. Well, I have a fruit picker. Let me come over and pick some fruit for you and-- 15:49.18 Margaretkilljoy Wait, what's a fruit picker? is it like a like a low robo arm thing that you like reach up and grab things with? 15:51.28 Gregg Oh, I wish. It's just a long pole with a basket on the end. 16:02.90 Margaretkilljoy Oh, cool. 16:13.72 Gregg And like, I, I bought one years ago just because I would... in my old neighborhood, I would just walk around and and find fruit trees and if anything was hanging off the edge I'd pick it. 16:15.00 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 16:15.60 Gregg But like you know tool offering. You're creating that like, "Oh yeah, we have, we have things we can trade." And just the other week, a woman who is like, "Oh, I Love your garden out front. You should come over and see my garden," and she had I want to say fifteen fruit trees in her backyard. 16:35.73 Margaretkilljoy Whoa. 16:49.67 Gregg And like, she's like, "Oh yeah, my husband's a master gardener," and like she's a pastor. Like she's, she's you know, she's, in in the religious realm, but like she's liberal. She's like….she cares about helping people, of course, and like it was like, ‘Oh yeah, we have this shared interest.' We both really like gardening. We we want...we could talk about like similar foods we wanted to plant or do, and now like okay now we have that connection. So if things are bad, we can interact in that way. 17:07.90 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 17:08.36 Gregg Like, I think that suburban life wants you to be isolated. It, It thrives in isolation. That's why it was created. But, I think that there are ways to break that isolation. I think it's just as simple as just like making yourself more available. And it's hard. We, You know, we all have lives. I have a full time job, and you know, I'm raising a family and all that stuff. So, it is hard to make the time. But yeah, I feel better when I when I do make that time. 17:38.64 Margaretkilljoy No, this is really interesting to me because one of the things that I always present or that I think about a lot is like one of the things I think this sort of the Anarchist role is sort of the the anti-organizer or something, the... Okay people always say when the apocalypse comes like some you know strong man will take over, and there's a certain amount of truth to that when you have a power vacuum, kind of the first person to present an organizing model that sounds halfway reasonable like people tend to go with. 18:10.64 Gregg Yeah 18:15.70 Margaretkilljoy And I've seen this in small scales where I'm aro--You know, hanging out with like 20 people or something and none of us know each other, the first person to be like, "Hey this is what we should do," kind of wins, right? 18:19.00 Gregg Yeah 18:20.00 Margaretkilljoy And, and what anarchists I've always felt should do is, and even those of us who hate organizing like me, is present present an organizational model that is non-hierarchical, basically like being like, "Oh, well, this is what we should do not like 'I'm in charge.' But here's a means by which we can make decisions. Here's a means by which we can come up with what we want to do collectively, like you know, and it's interesting to me because I hadn't quite thought about this but one of the big things about the white American settler project is to create these like unmarked spaces, you know-- 18:54.58 Gregg Yeah 19:11.79 Margaretkilljoy --this like place that is devoid of culture and devoid of interpersonal relations and things like that and the so the suburbs sort of exemplify that, so it actually sort of makes sense ah in some ways that's an organizational void that if you step in and say like, "Oh, well we can...we can share tools," You know it's like, where I grew up, you know when I was younger, there would be block parties because someone on the block organized a block party, right? 19:55.10 Gregg Yeah. 20:08.43 Margaretkilljoy And then I don't know what happened maybe that person stopped or moved or I'm I'm not sure, and we just stopped having block parties, and, and so the barriers come back up between people. But, they, but they can go away. I don't know this is just... sorry I'm almost like I'm not nostalgic, but it's like it's just really interesting to think about the suburbs as this void that therefore is like fertile ground in a way that I hadn't really thought before we started this conversation. 20:10.14 Gregg Yeah, I'm not convinced that it necessarily is-- 20:14.91 Margaretkilljoy Mmm, okay. 20:27.60 Gregg --but I think it is an area that is ignored often. 20:31.80 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 20:31.5 Gregg You never hear the cool kids saying, "Let's go move to the burbs!" But like people live here. And actually a lot of people that you may want to be around live in the suburbs. 20:42.64 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 20:46.40 Gregg Like, I feel I feel like as white people overwhelmingly re-enter like urban spaces there are are families who you know who are pushed out to the suburbs and that's where they're living and it's like if you want to actually be around people who aren't just like rich white people who are… who want you know coffee shops up and down everywhere, like that's one place you can find it. There's something, I think there's something to that and, you brought up block parties and it got me thinking about like, there's this, there's this, so there's this phenomenon that's like the National Night Out. Do you know about this? 21:15.95 Margaretkilljoy No, I don't. 21:23.23 Gregg So, there's... it's a pro cop thing. It's like the National Night Out where they throw block parties all over the neighborhood to essentially like, they bring the police, and they bring the fire truck out and they they have like you know, ah somebody dressed in a furry suit that has like you know a fireman outfit on or whatever, and it's like trying to get like the community out to, so you can meet your neighbors, but it's like it's still is mediated by the State because it's like used as this way to like promote, you know, either fire safety, or public safety, or all these myriad of things, or like community or Neighborhood Watch type things. Um, and I was talking with another person I know in town who who does organizing and I was like, "We need to have something that's not this. Like we need to have a counter for next year," and and she was like, "Yeah, definitely." So, I think that like block parties are definitely a way, and like if you already know people who are like, "Yeah, I don't really like the cops,” having something that's like counter to that, that's just like, "This is, this is our community. This is our way how we keep our say... ourselves safe," like and, kind of have the anti- Neighborhood Watch contingent-- 22:41.97 Margaretkilljoy Have you done that? Have you gone to do that yet, or is that that this year, next year or something? Gregg Not Yet, it will probably be next year-- Margaretkilljoyy Okay. Gregg --because the the day's already passed for that one and so we'd probably do something you know along that lines. But yeah, like yeah, I don't know. Um, yeah I think that there's there's also like a fertileness of like there is, there's more space that you can kind of um, like there's more physical space. 23:08.93 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 23:17.30 Gregg I think out here. When you're in an urban environment, everything is, is definitely overwhelmingly like built up, but like where I'm at I have very quick access to like pretty intense nature. Like there's coyotes who come into the neighborhood, and deer who regularly walk around, and um I don't know, that kind of access is nice. 23:33.87 Margaretkilljoy Yeah I actually see more wildlife on a regular basis when I visit my parents, even though I literally live in the woods. 23:42.40 Gregg Yeah. 23:53.12 Margaretkilljoy When I see deer near my house I get really excited. I mean, I see them once a week or something like that, But you can, but the…the wildlife, there's some word for this that I don't remember right now, the like where the wild and the suburban encroachment overlap is a place that wildlife is very visible I think partly because the habitat has been cut away but also because there's all that physical space. 24:05.62 Gregg Yeah. 24:12.73 Margaretkilljoy I Guess I do want to walk back like what I was saying earlier about like, "Oh the suburbs is this like white void." I Definitely don't mean to like paint all suburbs like that and I actually um, certainly the, the one where I grew up, was fairly racially diverse and actually fairly class diverse. And, it's incr... well's not increasingly class diverse. It's increasingly lower class as working class, as people move out of the city because of displacement because of rich white people who want to move into the city. So, so, I wonder whether we have like more... There's like the suburban ideal, the sort of like 1950 s you know, housewife vibe whiteness, no culture thing, and then there's the actual lived experience of the suburbs which I guess is is fairly different from that for. 25:04.98 Gregg Yeah. Yeah, I mean I grew up kind of in the suburbs like part of my growing up was in, was in the suburbs as well. It was, ah it was a place as a child to get bored, umm. 25:21.37 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 25:24.21 Gregg And like I, there's a lot of opportunity in boredom. 25:28.31 Margaretkilljoy Yeeeah. 25:43.73 Gregg And, and, and, I think that even as an adult like there is opportunities in boredom that, you know it's like, "Oh, today I'm going to find out like what this weird plant I came across was." Instead of like constantly being inundated with like activities or social engagements like there was, there is some advantage to being like more alone and I guess you, you get this being in a cabin in the in the wilderness, but like there's being in a more Urban center, you're so busy. And now I feel, I feel very un busy now in a way that's like, "Oh, I can get into the more deep work that I've wanted to do for a very long time," but also just like exploring these spaces that I just didn't have access to. I don't know what I'm saying there exactly, but like it. Yeah. 26:17.50 Margaretkilljoy No no, that's it, it's slower I mean and that is like part of what appeals about... I think one of the things That's so annoying about the American myth of the suburb is that like the way the American suburbs were largely constructed as as far as I understand them, I mean 1) There's a lot of racism built into it and specifically like, "We Don't want to pay taxes but we want access to the city," You know, and like the wealth fleeing the city or whatever you know and all this terrible stuff. But, the the actual physical infrastructure of the suburb, of like having homes and yards and parks and you know there's a lot to recommend about living in some kind of population density, and being able to share and centralize some types of you know, power systems and and sewer systems and things like that, while at the same time... I don't know, I mean like honestly just like straight up if someone was like, "Where, where would I, where is like the easiest place to survive the apocalypse?" Besides the people, and actually depending on the suburb maybe including the people, I'd probably pick the suburbs, because in you're like well I I have all of the space to grow food. But I also have access to people who are one of the other main resources. People are not resources, but you know one of the main other advantages that we could have in any kind of bad situation. A completely different structure. I mean, I guess the actual better structure is the sort of village thing. Of course then you run into the weird the way the suburbs are being redeveloped into these like corporate villages or whatever is also kind of gross. So I don't know there's nothing that can't be made gross. I don't know where I'm going with this. 28:00.63 Gregg So, I feel like in the suburbs. There's a lot of opportunities for like...that that have been taken, of course this is by, not by by organizers or radicals, but like there's like different ways of living and that have been tested in the suburbs and one example is like the Eusonian model that Frank Lloyd Wright built where he attempted to, he made these very pretty houses, being an architect, but they had a model of like how a space should be designed like it was very open styles. It was like this. The kitchen was de-emphasized because they didn't think that the kitchen mattered that much. I'm not saying that these these were good, but I think that we're heading into a new era that like we're going to have to start rethinking how houses actually exist. And, like these suburban houses that exist right? now are extremely inefficient. Like my house right now is a two-story home and the top half gets hot, while the bottom stays very cool and it's like well great good job there thinking of that thirty years ago. 29:58.72 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 30:13.34 Gregg You know, and like being somewhere where it's going to get affected by global warming. If we're, if we're all thinking about like, "Okay we all have these same homes," like when you're in a suburb, at Least mine, there's only like 5 different homes that exist. So like if you can connect with your with your neighbors and in a way and they're like, "Hey, you have the same home I do. I do. What modifications have you made to make it more energy efficient? What things have you done?" Because you have these templates that you can go like okay like,"These are exactly the same," and I think that like maybe there's a way that we could start experimenting just because there's more similarity and I've thought about that a lot I haven't done any like major renovations yet. But, we have these buildings. We're not turning them down anytime soon. How can we make them more efficient. I Think that what most people do is they just slap solar panels on top and and some batteries, and call it a day. But, yeah. 30:57.86 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, the the mass-produced house thing. It's interesting to find an advantage to that right? Because I mostly see this as this like major disadvantage. I remember when I moved into a barn that my friends built, where the the top half was finished. And had like a proper attic and everything I was like, "This building regulates temperature better than the house I grew up in," you know, and this was just like built by my friends, and because it...and it was built cheaply, but it was built cheaply through like DIY scrappiness, not. "How can I maximize my profit extraction of building this structure," you know and um, like no one's going to accuse these suburban homes of being overbuilt anytime soon, you know, and I read all of these construction forums all the time and you can tell who's like the homeowner versus who's the the contractor because the...or the ‘home builder', because the home builder is like, "Oh yeah and in this place, in this place you can get away by using with 2x3s, and you know or whatever possible cost savings that they can build into it versus the like you know here's how to put hurricane ties on everything, and you know versus, as compared to people like, "Oh, you have to put hurricane ties on if you're below the such and such latitude line," or whatever. Um, so it's it's interesting to me to see these advantages, because yeah I wouldn't think throwing solar panels on it is the way to go, and I mean I guess you could put a battery on it. But, it's like grid tie solar to me makes more sense anyway, because from my point of view battery storage is the big ecological downside of Solar. But okay, so so what would you do? What would you do to this kind of house? I assume like blow in more insulation in the attic or like what what can you do to a house? 32:43.41 Gregg Yeah, yeah, I think the first thing that I that I would...big project that I'd like to take care of is like water reclamation, and figuring out like where, how things go because all the all the down spouts are have to get into the weeds, but like having downspouts on every single corner of your of your property, it's like, "Oh yeah, how do we, how do we pipe this all together? 33:07.90 Margaretkilljoy Oh yeah, totally. 33:22.14 Gregg Instead of just like gathering things in a bucket. But like yeah, the heat, the heat situation I haven't really figured out too well, and it's something that I just need to do more research on, along with all the other projects that I have, so I don't have anything specific yet. But it's something that I think about, and like as I get to know more people around me and be like, "Oh..." like I for, okay so here's ah, here's a good example. So I went into a a a friend's house down the street, they have the exact same house, and I'm like, "Oh, your house is a lot...brings in a lot more light than mine." All they had is different paint and different paint on their walls I was like, "Of course, we need to paint the walls, so we can bring in more in natural light. And it's just like stuff like that that makes you think of like other things that like, you could get this from just like going to random people's houses and be like, "Oh yeah, that, you're doing this this way I'm doing this this way." Then I can get ideas off of it. But, I don't know, it just interesting to see like the exact same house and like see okay here's the different ways you can make it work for you. 34:13.00 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, no, I was interested because I have a feeling that people in the city can do kind of similar things with apartments and I know that, you know, where I live, it's like all of our houses are totally, all the cabins and stuff that people I know build are all pretty different from each other in a lot of ways. But then we all are constantly like learning from each other about like how to wire solar, or what kinds of insulation actually work, or which natural building methods are total garbage, and which ones actually make sense in our climate and, it's cool. I Don't know I I kind of have this like happy little vision of like a permacultured suburb as like ah you know all the lawns ripped up, and fruit trees everywhere, and water reclamation, and all this stuff that HOAs always would you know absolutely despise. 35:03.57 Gregg Yes. 35:07.74 Margaretkilljoy It's a little like dystopian versus utopian conflict within this ah very separated space and again I don't know, I don't spend much time in suburbs anymore, so it's it's hard for me to totally conceptualize. 35:19.22 Gregg Yeah, and along with that like the the place where I'm in, the having the water situation makes everybody thinking thinking about like, "Oh, I'm going to turn up my lawn," and like that, having that shared narrative of like, "There used to be lawns. There are no longer lawns, because it is financially not feasible anymore, because water is costing more and we're in global, global warming times," makes everybody start being like, "Oh, what are you doing with your yard? What kind of trees are you putting in?" You can kind of get ideas off of people and like some people are like, "Oh yeah I really like cactuses," or I personally I like doing fruit trees and and native pollinators if I can do it. So yeah, yeah, so like that idea of like the permaculture suburban life, I think that it's going to have to happen out of necessity when like this the suburb becomes unsustainable as it is. Like the suburbs are, as they were built they're pretty unsustainable. You need a vehicle to get into them. That like every house was given a tree that like was not a native tree, lots of lawns, no real good ways to reclaim the water. A lot of the water just goes right into the sewer. I was talking about water reclamation earlier and to do one of the pipes I would have to dig up the ground. Like the people who built these houses were not thinking about like, "Oh we need to collect this water someday." Yeah, but I think that that's... especially here that's going to change and as that changes we're going to have to come up with with more and better ideas about how to, how to reconfigure these houses so we can survive here for the long term. 37:27.40 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. What do people make of you, like when you're coming around and and trying to organize with people. Yeah, what do people make of you? 37:49.23 Gregg Ah, I don't know, I don't really ask people what they make of me, but I but I get the I like I've I've just been able to connect with other people working on on organizing projects, and I think people are appreciative that they, that somebody is around who kind of gets it. I don't need to be told that you know white supremacy exists. I'm not in there trying to be like, "Oh yeah, some cops are our friends," and so that I think that like is refreshing for people who are normally working with people who are like not not even day one type of stuff. And, I feel like currently though, it's like I'm still getting my footing. I've only been here a year. I'm still kind of gaining, I feel like a lot of it is still like gaining trust and the pandemic has made it super hard to just like... you just want to be in the same room as people, and like interact and like have a potluck or like you know, share food or share ideas and like that's been a lot more difficult. It's going to get easier as we hopefully get out of this. But, yeah, I get the feeling that that people are appreciative of the work that I've done and of my contributions, because like again talking about the FOIA thing, that has gotten me to get in contact with like reporters who are reporting on like the city and the police departments that are in the city and county that I'm in, which have some pretty corrupt stuff coming out, and so like having that ability to to network with not only reporters who have been doing this work forever and exposing some of the the injustices here, but like organizers and activists who have been on the ground doing that work as well. I think it shows that like you can find a way to do, to fit in with whatever skills that you have, and people are going to be appreciative of you. Like one of the big things about like being in an area where you're relatively new is like, and especially during a pandemic, it's like how do you find the people who who are like working on the stuff that you want to work on. They exist. Every city is going to have somebody who has been trying for years to get some project off the ground, or stop something that's going on in their city, or either, even like get the ear of city council, and if you can be that extra voice, or that extra person to call in and be like, "Hey, stop this," that can be worth a lot especially in a city where maybe the population is not so engaged. 40:39.44 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 40:58.38 Gregg Even, even if the population is like engaged in the opposite direction, if there's somebody else saying that, you're gonna find those people I think. Yeah, and like I hate to say it but like one of the, one of the places I've been able to gauge like where people's energies are is actually through Facebook. Like there's multiple different Facebook groups that are focused in the city, and like that's where most people do their organizing work. 41:15.48 Margaretkilljoy Okay. 41:17.19 Gregg Like Facebook and like Next Door. And I'm not just talking like organizing from like a Leftist or a radical perspective. But I'm talking more like even the Right wingers, and so it... joining these different groups, you get...ah you get a taste of like, "Okay, who are these people? What are they working towards? What do you need to be paying attention to? What are people angry about?" You know you can figure out that's like, "Oh people don't like that their their roads are taking forever to get fixed," which is like you know, typical weird suburban like complaint is like okay, but like, also you go, "Oh there, there was a school board recall this past year that failed miraculously, like very badly failed, but there was um connection between one of the school board people and one of the organizers of the recall, and you know like you could get from Facebook of like them... how that connection worked and so you were able to see, "Oh, actually this person who's on the school board is is related to somebody who's actually running the recall." 42:34.55 Margaretkilljoy Ah, so there's a very like transparent organizing happening from probably both the Right and the Left. 42:40.74 Gregg Yeah, exactly and so like you can kind of see it's like, "Okay, what are... where are people at?" and like you don't even have to participate. I don't suggest that people participate in Facebook. I loathe it as a platform. But, it is wherever the people are, so it's like you're trying to find like friends and enemies, that's the place to do it, and you know I would also suggest getting on Next Door. I... it is a terrible platform as well, but I think it also is another one of those things that like gives you an idea of like, "Okay, where are people at? What are the issues that matter in this city, and where are people doing the work that I want to be involved in?" And people respond really well to just reaching out. Like I do... I Just like email people and like, "Hey, what are you doing? And this is who I am, and like that's...I admit that that's kind of a unique thing of of mine, like I don't mind making making a fool of myself, but like that is a way to to get involved to just like emailing people who you see are doing this kind of organizing, and like some people might be be trepidatcious of you and so there may be a, a period of time where you have to prove yourself-- 43:53.20 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 43:54.92 Gregg --Of like not being you know a a bad person, and that's totally fine, and I get that from doing Anarchist organizing where we can be paranoid about every...any new person who comes in. 43:58.74 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, I was about to say we have that problem as a specific major problem in the Anarchist Movement, so. 44:09.72 Gregg Yeah, so when people like you know email me back and then, and don't touch base for months I'm like, "Okay that's fine, I get it," or and also like there's a real problem of like everybody also has their whole lives going on. This isn't like organizing when you know I was 20 and like that's all we did. We went to the Food Not Bombs, and then we went to the info shop, and then we went to the Critical Mass. Like it's much more. There's much more things that have to happen on a daily basis, so things move a lot slower. And I think they would move a lot slower than they would in an urban environment too, because there's just like people are busy. There's less people working on things as well. 44:52.18 Margaretkilljoy And it might be like a less of a sense of... precarity tends to cause people to act much more quickly sometimes right, like I imagine suburban organizing as it being like, "Oh, we should stop this thing," but it's a little bit less like, "I'm a starve to death if we don't stop this thing." 45:00.00 Gregg Yeah, yeah. 45:02.00 Margaretkilljoy I have a question about Next Door. So I only know of Next Door is this like panopticon.. decentralized panopticon, where it just encourages neighbors to snitch on each other and be racist and stuff, right. And the closest I've ever experienced is like you know in Asheville there's a Facebook group that's like basically just nosy neighbors, and but, it turns into this like argument where you know, for example, someone will like make fun of a person who doesn't know house right? And then a lot of people will be like, "What are you doing? Like stop taking a picture of someone's tent and putting it on here. That's like where they live. You're endangering them," and the the push back seems to work a little bit. Not always, but. Can you can you push back on Next Door? And, if so does it look like, "Hey. Ah. I Appreciate you're concerned about your safety, but maybe don't report every single person you see to the police," or whatever. Like, like what is the culture of resisting a Right-wing echo chamber on a social media platform like that? 46:23.63 Gregg Yeah, good question. I think that it's difficult, but it's, but it's, but it's possible like I think that like um, being on these platforms, and like this is totally like not a 'have to', you have to have the energy for this sort of thing. I Think it can be, especially if you're in an area that's like extremely like always talking down about houseless people, or like always being racist and What not, it's like sometimes removing yourself from the platform is totally fine. 46:58.53 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 47:00.50 Gregg But if you have the energy for it, I think that it's useful to not only like for information gathering, which is like, "seeing where people are at. What are what are people mad about?" But then like yeah, being that voice of like, "Hey this sucks." And like, there was, there's a situation in town with the kids on bicycles, and it's like very, it's a very you know Suburban concern. It's like, "These kids are riding their bikes, and they're riding them recklessly up and down the main street, 47:29.72 Margaretkilljoy God forbid. 47:30.00 Gregg And like, you have you have, like you know people being like, "They just need a spanking." 47:20.42 Margaretkilljoy Oh my God. 47:36.54 Gregg And I like you know, I Just like couldn't help myself. I was just like, "Do you just... you think that hitting kids is okay?" and and they're like, "Well no, and like maybe you can go talk to them because you're a man," because whatever. And it's just like weird. Yeah, it was gross. Um, but it's like getting it out there just to be like, "No, actually like leave these kids alone. And like you don't need to be like this," and having that that voice. And like maybe it's doing nothing and the the most effective thing is that the kids are still out there and they don't care. Like they don't care about the online conversations. And like maybe we should care less about the online conversations. But I think that like there there is this sense of like... there can be like this like... there's a complaint and then the complaint happens again, and then people get into the complaint, and the complaint becomes this like fuel, and then that fuel can lead to something in the real world. And, I think being somebody who couldn't be there and just be the water to just be like, "I'm going to put this out," or I'm going at least like tell people to like take take it down the notch is maybe effective. I don't know. But, it's something that I that I try to do. But, I also don't want to waste my time online and I'd rather be outside. So. 48:52.80 Margaretkilljoy Right. Also with those kids fortunately, and not to be like, "Kids are too online," I'm just very excited about the kids on bicycles because that was that was me. I wonder, I mean because the other advantage of doing what you're talking about doing is that there's a certain amount of...There's that bystander syndrome where when you see something bad happening, it's hard to be the first person to do something about it. And, I think that happens a lot on social media. I mean ironically, because and the other problem with social media is everyone feels very entitled to tell people exactly what they think. But, especially in a social media that's like 'place' specific or you know there's sort of an implication of non-anonymity if you see someone say something messed up. Or I mean I don't know I've had this up in social situations where someone says something kind of messed up, and no one wants to engage because it seems like a lot of work. And so the moment someone finally is like, "Hey, that's racist. Maybe don't talk like that or think like that." You know, it it allows other people to speak up, or even in this case as you as you mentioned it you know it got the person to change from saying, "Oh we should just you know beat these children," to, "Okay, maybe I don't think the solution is to beat these children." So, that's cool. 50:07.75 Gregg Yeah, yeah I mean we could We could talk all day about how the what the internet does to people. But, I think it it it affords people to like put their worst ideas out there because it's like it's reaction...I Think the internet is great for reactionary talk, you know? From from all sides. And then like having something that's place specific, and also non-anonymous, and also like you utilizing it for just like where you live. It's like, "Yeah. No, these people don't get to talk like that, and they don't get to be like that, and if they do like can go do it somewhere else on the internet." But, like, focusing on like your physical space is just like, "Yeah, stop." I don't know, you know? 50:52.90 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. Sorry, as a total tangential question: at the very beginning, you talked a little bit about preparedness in terms of how making these connections with other people is a very useful preparedness step, and I actually really appreciate that. Most most... obviously most conversations about preparedness don't talk enough about community and relationships, and talk too much about stuff. But I am curious what you have done from a preparedness point of view or what you would advocate is useful to do from a preparedness point of view in a suburban environment. 51:29.57 Gregg I think it's building the friendly relationships first before you need them. I think that's key, and because like even if you're not on the same page with all of your neighbors if you can have that sense of like, "I know you. I know your name. We see each other. I know your dogs. Whatever." I feel like you've mentioned this on the podcast a lot, but like when there's a disaster, we're not going to pick... We're not going to be able to pick who we're prepared with. 52:05.35 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 52:08.10 Gregg Like I can't like pick my five best friends to be the ones that are going to come, and we're going to do everything perfect, and like we're going to have all the right gear, and all the right ideas and be able to get it...out alive. You're probably going to have to work with people who you don't like, who you don't agree with politically. And at least like if you're in... if you're living around people who you know are probably not Anarchists, are maybe not even Leftists, but they are nice to you. That's gonna that's gonna matter. So I think that's... like there's there's a limit I mean you can't...In my opinion, if you have a Blue Lives Matter flag up like, we're we're probably... we have irreconcilable differences. 52:54.65 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, you picked your team at that point. 53:05.43 Gregg Yeah like that... and okay, great. But like you know this person who puts their American flag out all the time. Okay. Maybe there's something there, you know? Like whatever. Like I think that there's like-- 53:10.82 Margaretkilljoy God Someone invented a worse flag than the American flag I'm really impressed by that. Yeah. 53:25.25 Gregg I can't wait I can't wait till what what comes next. I mean there's yeah, the whole striping thing is so like the red, the green, blue... What are they yellow? 53:23.50 Margaretkilljoy I like the the fake Landlord one, the like beige one. Anyway, I didn't I didn't mean to derail you. 53:44.56 Gregg Yeah, that's fine. But yeah like, I think yeah, the stuff doesn't matter. It's the people, and it's like knowing the people around you that like when disaster strikes. And yep. I do amateur radio as well, and that is, that is my community of people who I'm probably going to get on the radio with, and be like, "Hey, what needs to happen? What are we doing when when there's a disaster?" So yeah, I guess my my advice is just like build those friendly relationships now. Figure out where people are at, figure out who has the cool fruit trees, and like offer to help them out. And, like if your neighbors need things like be be there to support now. Because we are in a disaster situation. Like it, it is happening now. Like the past few days have been extremely smoky here, and like that's... you know... just checking in with the air. And I also live in a neighborhood that's like... it's generationally transitioning. 54:40.65 Margaretkilljoy Mhmm 54:42.50 Gregg So meaning that like there were a lot of people who bought their houses when they were first built, and they are older now. They don't have children, or they're just like alone, and I think that like making sure that your older neighbors are like... know that you're around, know that you know that you care is like important. 54:56.48 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 55:00.63 Gregg And, I think that like a lot of times in our organizing or disaster preparedness, we don't really think about that. Like there are people who are going to need our help that are not you know, young able-bodied. Like you know, and like us. 55:10.90 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 55:19.86 Gregg And how do, how do we better support that? And like, and disaster could not even be like a big situation, but it could be enough where like maybe they don't have medicine. Maybe they don't have the things that they normally need. 55:27.25 Margaretkilljoy Right. 55:38.82 Gregg So figuring that out, and like just...Yeah, like, my neighbor is like... has the ah... she has the squirrel feeding on lock. So I think we'll be good for for rations if we need that. 55:41.34 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, the making friends with, or at least getting to know your neighbors, especially folks who are yeah maybe older folks who live alone or something like that has been...it's so important because there's so many places... I mean there's this pandemic of loneliness. Obviously, we're in another pandemic right now, but one that clearly ties into loneliness. But, you know as a major problem in U.S. society as as I understand it, is is loneliness of people of all ages. But, but especially to my knowledge of older folks. And I don't know, I mean we have this like positive, this positive story about how there's a terrible flood on my land and my solar panels all washed away, and water got into a bunch of houses and I watched hundreds of dollars of my stuff float down the river...and but whatever. Um, this happened recently where I live, and yeah, we still had it better than many other people in our area who lost their entire homes and things like that. But when that was happening most of our neighbors are up on higher ground than us and you know our neighbors were like, "Cool, what do you need?" and all of our neighbors know we're weird queer people, you know? My name is Margaret and if you hear my voice you don't believe me that I was born with that name. You know? And you know, and realizing that like one of our neighbors who we had to like talk out of voting for Trump, you know? 57:26.60 Gregg But you were successful. Margaretkilljoy Yeah, successfully, yes. Gregg That's amazing. 57:37.41 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, and just because it was like...well he doesn't have...I'm not trying to you know talk so much about this particular person's business, but you know he has a hard life right? And he lives alone. He's a bit older, and and... but he's also like... it's really good that we know him. You know? And it's really good that we're able to be neighborly with him. So I, yeah, I don't know. I just, I can't emphasize what you just said enough basically. Getting to know... well it gets into that thing too where if people...if people's needs are not being met by the system, which regardless of all the climate change apocalypses is an increasing problem anyway, is that when we organize to meet our needs collectively we just get stronger. And that absolutely needs to apply to people of different generations and things. 58:28.89 Gregg Yeah, definitely. But I...yeah and I will say I do not have the answers yet about you know, being in the 'burbs, like I'm still learning and this--- 58:40.78 Margaretkilljoy Wait, that's why are you on the podcast. I thought you had all the answers. 58:46.46 Gregg Exactly. And,like I think that that's another big thing is just like there's a learning curve for learning how to operate in a different way, that I think like that if if people are listening to this trying to find all the answers to like, "Oh, I either am currently in the suburbs and stuck, or, and want to find other people, or like 1) just moved there because of different reasons and I'm trying to find other people. It's just like... different things are going to work for you. And like ah... it's a different way of of operating your life. You know? 59:22.78 Margaretkilljoy Yeah, what's what's changed? I'm I'm assuming you're coming out of a more urban environment. 59:27.54 Gregg Yeah, just having access to...to people. I think that's the big thing, is like there's no...I mean there's a downtown area, you know you can go hang out there, but there's no like very local coffee shop where you ran into...and you don't have that feeling of like constantly running into people you know. At least I don't yet. And that...that feels a little bit different when you're like...you feel more alone. 59:55.20 Margaretkilljoy Yeah. 01:00:04.15 Gregg And like, meeting... but meeting people and like trying to find people who are doing the same kinds of work that I want to be doing alleviates that a little bit. But yeah. 01:00:05.63 Margaretkilljoy Okay. Which, is I think what works for people in cities too, and I know a lot of people in cities also feel really isolated. 01:00:17.88 Gregg Yeah, yeah. 01:00:22.86 Margaretkilljoy Alright, well we're coming up on on on an hour and I I'm I'm wondering, do you have any any last thoughts, things that I didn't ask you that I should have asked you about suburban preparedness or organizing or life? 01:00:31.43 Gregg Um. Yeah I mean I would just, I would just reiterate: find the things you want to do, not necessarily the people yet. The people will come with the with the activities, and I think that that's like a big thing. It's like...and if you like gardening find the gardening organization in your town. If you like feeding people there are, there is probably an org around you that that likes to feed people. There is one here. I mean there is in this town. There is, there was an organization that got started during the pandemic that started free food shelves in people's yards. So, like there is I think there is opportunities for whatever the kind of work that you think is important is, and finding that first is gonna...the people will follow. And I think also don't be afraid to be the weirdo. I mean I put a "Nobody For President" sign in my yard last year, and you know I dug up my lawn and in in the middle of the night, and like, with a pic-axe, and like stuff like that. And I think that like people appreciate seeing somebody who is like being being their genuine selves. And like don't feel like you have to conform just because you moved somewhere that looks more conformed. 01:01:53.47 Margaretkilljoy People are like 1) like way more appreciative of a weirdo than we all think right, and 2) the myth of people who aren't weirdos is a myth, you know? 01:02:08.33 Gregg Yeah. 01:02:12.40 Margaretkilljoy And so just like when you wear that on on your sleeve...like one of the reasons I kind of like about being you know, visibly strange or whatever is that it kind of like sorts people out. I don't have to judge anyone based on how they look because like people who want to judge me on how they look will do so. 01:02:27.83 Gregg Yeah. 01:02:30.88 Margaretkilljoy And I can write them off. You know So someone who like looks normal, if they're willing to treat me like I'm a perfectly normal...if if they treat me like a peer, we're good. You know? And so it doesn't surprise me that you're "Nobody For President" sign and ripping up your lawn didn't like make you the pariah of the neighborhood. You know? Instead it was like...it gives something people to talk to you about, and I don't know I'm projecting here, but. 01:02:54.60 Gregg Yeah. 01:02:58.10 Margaretkilljoy Okay, well, um, I don't know, thanks so much for for coming on, and maybe next year after you have your block party we should ah we should talk about how that goes. 01:03:09.48 Gregg Definitely. Yeah and yes, anybody wants to hit me up on Twitter I'm Gregawatt and yeah, that's it. 01:03:13.10 Margaretkilljoy How do you spell that? Because, I'm under the impression there's a lot of G's Gregg Oh yeah, G-R-E-G-G-A-W-A-T-T yeah. . 01:03:22.48 margaretkilljoy Also it was a good source to learn more about radio stuff, is following you on Twitter and and I actually that was my first thought is that we're gonna do a follow up radio episode. But then you, you pitched this, so I'm excited about this so. 01:03:34.49 Gregg Well, we can always talk about radio another time. Margaretkilljoy Cool. Gregg Alright. Margaretkilljoy Thanks so much. Gregg Thank you have a good day. 01:05.79 Margaretkilljoy Thanks so much for listening if you enjoyed this podcast something is wrong with you... No wait. No if you enjoyed this podcast. You should tell people about it. You should tell people about it in person and on the internet and other places. I'm not sure what there is between In-person and in the internet. Sky writing? You should tell about people about it through skywriting. You probably shouldn't. I haven't really looked into this much. You can support this podcast by supporting our publisher Strangers In A Tangled Wilderness on Patreon which is http://patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness and if you do so you'll get access to some stuff earlier than other people. Not the podcast. Everyone gets at the same time. We don't really love paywalls. Paywalls aren't like the best thing that's ever happened to content or the world. So, there's not like a ton of pay walled stuff. But sometimes we communicate with people a little bit more on Patreon and we also have eternal gratitude for all the things that you all are are bringing to life including this podcast. And in particular I would love to thank: Nicole, and David, Dana, Chelsea, Starrow, Jennifer, Eleanor, Natalie, Kirk, Hugh, Nora, Sam, Chris, and Hoss the dog for making this podcast and so many other projects possible. Alright. That's it. Thanks so much and I hope you do well. Find out more at https://live-like-the-world-is-dying.pinecast.co

Dr. Mang Chen sits down with Keaton Kash to discuss all too commonly asked questions around his FTM bottom surgery approach and techniques. While some of what we cover is fairly foundational, I DEFINITELY learned a few things in this interview, so I have no doubts that you will as well, even if you're quite seasoned on the topic! The purpose of these interviews is to help your future consults with Dr. Chen focus on the specifics of YOU as a potential patient, rather than spending valuable consultation time learning the fundamentals of the procedures. Plus, we all know that information can get misconstrued as it travels through word-of-mouth online. Therefore, I'm super stoked that Dr. Chen was kind enough to spend some time with me so I can bring you super correct info, straight from the source. Website: https://clubftm.com/ IG: https://www.instagram.com/modclubftm/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/modlove/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/modlove/support

Dr. Mang Chen sits down with Keaton Kash to discuss all too commonly asked questions around his FTM bottom surgery approach and techniques. While some of what we cover is fairly foundational, I DEFINITELY learned a few things in this interview, so I have no doubts that you will as well, even if you're quite seasoned on the topic! The purpose of these interviews is to help your future consults with Dr. Chen focus on the specifics of YOU as a potential patient, rather than spending valuable consultation time learning the fundamentals of the procedures. Plus, we all know that information can get misconstrued as it travels through word-of-mouth online. Therefore, I'm super stoked that Dr. Chen was kind enough to spend some time with me so I can bring you super correct info, straight from the source. Website: https://clubftm.com/ IG: https://www.instagram.com/modclubftm/ --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/modlove/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/modlove/support

This week... I showed up to do something a little different... I speak... But what I want to convey is so much deeper, and more important. This week... Presence... And how it is the antidote to suffering.... What is suffering exactly?... That, I DEFINITELY talk about in this episode... So listen in. Pay attention, and see if you can FEEL the message behind the words this week. This is a truly special episode... You do NOT want to miss it! Talk with you all again next week!

Hail to the King! No, the A doesn't stand for Ash and there is no Evil Dead we have to fight with the Necronomicon. Even though I DEFINITELY said the words! I said them! This week we're playing Adventure Mart designed by Sam Taylor, published in 2020 by DigiSprite and Hub Games! Post your comments to Twitter/Instagram @FirstTurnCast or email us at firstturntabletop@gmail.com.  Please remember to rate, review, and subscribe!  Until next week, play more games!

So why in the world would someone want to continue with psychedelics after such hellish experiences? Well, bottom line, I hadn't received the answers I was seeking yet. On my 5th trip, I DEFINITELY got those answers and soooo much more. Trip 5 constitutes the turning point of not only my podcast, but most importantly, my journey and therefore my life as a whole. I will be recording the interview for Trip 5 on the weekend of 5/28 and it will likely take me at least a week or so to edit and finalize. So in the meantime, please ruminate on this prelude episode.

Sam Loader is the owner of the Pacific Paddle company in Auckland New Zealand and the designer of the PPC wing.   Interview transcript: Aloha it's Robert Stehlik, welcome to another episode of the blue planet show, where I interview wing foil athletes, designers, and thought leaders. These are unrushed, long form, in-depth interviews, where I'm trying to learn not only about wing foiling technique and equipment, but also try to get a deeper understanding of the guests, their background, what inspires them and how they live their best life. This show is available on YouTube, where you get video, and also as a podcast in audio only, just search for the blue planet show on your favorite podcast app to listen to the long form interviews on the go. This show has a lot of video where I'm filming myself, wing foiling with a back mounted camera and people always ask questions about that. So just preemptively. I wanted to show you how I record it. If you can see this GoPro max camera, a 360 camera mounted on my back. And then afterwards I can edit it and show the footage from different angles. So it's a cool system. So this is a homemade harness windsurfing harness with Camera pole. These are also available commercially. So I'll put more information down below in the description. So check it out. If you have any questions about that. The last time I went on a trip off the Island of Oahu was to New Zealand in February, 2020. This was when the virus was raging in China and right while we're also opening a new shop and so on. So it was a crazy time for me, but I made it over there to visit with Dan Regan. Who's our New Zealand do planet distributor. Thanks so much for inviting me. And we went to a beautiful place called Paula Nui, where they had the Auckland paddle Fest. And that's where I met Sam loader who owns a business called Pacific paddle company or PPC. And we stayed in touch afterwards and he emailed me about this new wing he developed. So I was curious, he sent me a sample. I tried it. And, to be honest, I've tried most wings that are available on the market today. And I can honestly say that it's the favorite one I've tried so far, just the combination of a lightweight pot, very powerful for its size, easy handling, very neutral on the wave and just so many nice features that I like about it. So we talk a lot about the wing and the development. And so on in this video here, I'm also planning to make a detailed product review video that I'll post on a YouTube channel shortly, probably within a week or two. So stay tuned for that. And for now you can go to the link below or appear to get more information about the wing on our website. So without further ado, here's my next guest sound loader with PPC. All right. Sound loader, welcome to the Duke science show and stoked to have you. And it's been a while since I saw you I guess right before the pandemic we met and Paula Newey in New Zealand and he took me tow and foiling, which was awesome. So thanks for that as well. But let's talk a little bit first about your background, like where, where did you grow up and, how did you get into the whole watersports and your business and so on? So I grew up in Christchurch, which is South Island of New Zealand. And I actually grew up skiing. So in the mountains a little bit. So a lot of people don't know I've a ski background and competed a little bit and traveled and went to the U S and stuff. But yeah, The, I guess the whole water thing came about. We used to go to Fiji as a family just once a year, pretty lucky to do that. But my parents just said they couldn't get me out of the water from the start of the day to the end of the day. So I was, they were pretty much going down to the beach at night time and try to find me and whatever I was doing, trying to swim with fish or whatever. I don't know. I was just, I've just been addicted from those are my first kind of memories of just being addicted to the feeling of just being in the ocean and now I just kinda need it. And I'm actually a bit more comfortable in the ocean. Just like all of us, I think all of us addicts. Do you remember where that was in Fiji? Like I was there a couple of years. It was Castaway Island. That's where he needs to go. And it's kinda, it is, it's kinda near like tomato and Tavarua. Yeah, we actually went there by boat. Yeah. Castle. It's a beautiful spot. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty cool. Little family spot, but. And then obviously later in life, went back to Fiji and went to spots like the Moto and sift around. And I was just thinking, cause we went a year before the pandemic and I was just thinking how good the wing would have been over there. Surf in the morning, there's always a breeze that comes up. So it would have been pretty unreal having the wing then make star. Okay. And then can I ask you how old you are now? I'm 34 coming up. And then, so how did you get into business? Like how did that come up? Probably it's a long story. Went to uni. Didn't know what I wanted to do. Like probably most of us I just got an office job in Sydney and I thought this isn't me. Went back to New Zealand, saved up, did a bit of building. And saved up and bought a plane ticket to the U S and ended up working for a company over in the U S for a little bit, just a surf retailer, and then met up with some shapers and stuff in San Clemente. And yeah, I guess worked over there for a year, came back here. This was around the time of the boom. So I, yeah, just started learning to design and designing SOPs and yeah, I imported my first container. I think I was about 27 imported the first container to New Zealand. I think it was like 12, 2012, 2013. Those it's not even, yeah, it's the boom. This was growing really fast at that time, man. You obviously pretty. Pretty deep into it. I was pretty young obviously and sold the first container in two weeks. And I thought, what is this crazy? This is too easy sort of thing. I I've got another one, and then I just, and then it just went from one thing to another and I really just love designing boards and yeah. And now here we are quite a few products later. Things keep changing, which makes it interesting. So this is your website Pacific paddle company.com. And this is your shop that you so yeah, so that is the shop in Oakland. We've been here two years. I actually, I should have had a photo of my first shop was in it, it was in a paddock just with a couple of containers just when I started out. But I sold this premises a few years ago and we just made the move and never looked back really. Nice. So that's in tech Poon in New Zealand and it's it's 15 minutes down the road from me, so pretty good location, pretty good lifestyle. And then I guess when did you start getting into foiling and selling foil gear and all that kind of stuff? So I remember seeing foiling, I think it was like Kai and Connor and stuff. They were on the kind of rice boards cut in half and I just went that's ridiculous. I have to try that. So I think it was the first batch of foils that came to New Zealand. I think it was go for at the time. So I, I got my hands on one of those and yeah, I was just thinking how hard it was. I think it was a little, it was a little wing and I was just thinking I got dad to actually tell me behind the GSC. Cause I went straight out in the surf. Actually, I thought I can do this. And I just got rolled. So I got dead to, we hired a jet ski learned behind the ski and it was, yeah. And then from there on out, I dunno, just things have just been developing so fast. And now just the amount of different folds that I've tried. I'm sure you're the same. It's just being crazy, like development from where they began. I think it's so much easier now for anyone to pick it up. It was pretty hard back then. Small board, small wing, small everything, and yeah. Yeah. It's yeah. I'm looking at your Instagram page here. It looks like you're deep into wing link. That's like your main thing, huh? Yeah. It's it probably needs to be, I probably need to maybe get some stand-up pedal action bag in there, but I dunno, it's just been. Yeah, it's just been so easy to, to wing lately, just with I dunno, it's just looking for waves as I still love surfing. Still love it, but winging is just so much easier. So I'm just enjoying the fact that you can just drive down the road two minutes from the shop and jump in the water and have a good to ask question. I'm sure you relate to being busy, having a shop and a brand. I was going to ask you cause you're probably one of the only guys that I know actually, who has the shop and the brand. So you it's a funny scenario sometimes to kind of way to cap or you think. Yeah, we're definitely similar in that respect. I've been in business since 1993, so it's been, like almost 30 years soon. And I learned over the years to delegate, try to delegate as much as they can. And definitely the shop is run runs more or less without me being there all the time. So I'm fortunate that way to be able to take care of that kind of the backend stuff. And then do you try to get in the water and so on? But your feet, like before you got into Wingfoot and you were definitely into more to stand up paddling and stand up surfing and all that. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And like looking at your store sales, like how does foiling compared to standard palling? I know for us, like during the whole pandemic standard paddling has been super popular and, people just getting in the water, especially entry level boards and equipment has been selling really well for us. How has it been? I think to be honest, it's been refreshing just with the whole foil thing taking off and new Zealand's quite a small market, so set pedal got pretty, pretty saturated pretty quickly here. Like everyone has this standup paddleboards may, maybe I'm not focusing on it that much anymore, but it just the largest sort of chains they bought in huge volumes of stand-up paddleboards and. I just I just love the fact, I think I've jumped on foiling because it's pretty hard to replicate. It's quite Dean Nicole, and it's kinda, I love that kind of specialized, part of it. And I feel like it's not going to get saturated too quickly, stand-up pedal did, but I'm definitely going to push stand up. I went for one the other day. Actually, there wasn't any wind, so it was, there were waves. So it was actually refreshing to get on a wave. You can't I dunno, you can't compare that feeling to winging, but yeah, it definitely looks, yeah, I was pretty sucked dominated wasn't I back in the, yeah same as I was in our shop, and we're still, for our shop, we still are, so it's a majority of our sales are still Santa paddle. Boards and, I still stand up paddle eye and I just go into racing and that kind of stuff. We have a training group that meets every Wednesday and so on. Still doing that, but it's definitely like my, when I have time to go in the water, I usually try to go on a windy day so I can go a wink. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. You're going to go back up to the top here. Yeah, and I started standup foiling, but then once I got on a wing for a boy, just being able to be on the foil the whole time that to me made was so cool. Just to be able to be up on the foil for your whole session, pretty much not have to paddle it back out again, so that's definitely a draw, a wink flailing. Yeah. Yeah. And not have to use the jet ski so much. I think about it like. Everybody's got their own jet ski, holding onto the wing. You're just getting towed back out to the lineup. It's crazy. Yeah. And no pollution, no noise. Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. I guess recently you had the America's cup in New Zealand and and I guess, tell us a little bit about that you had this posted this video of you guys foiling in between the races. Yeah, it's been honestly pretty crazy with all the America's cup stuff going on lately. I think we're pretty lucky to have all the best sailors in the world in one location, for the last year, two years it was, it's just been crazy. This, yeah. Okay. This year was a bit of a mission. So earlier in the, in this story, I meet the helicopter pilots. They came into the shop and they want some wind gifts or, yeah, like everybody's into this thing. So even the pilots filming this, filming these races yeah, we want to win. They came in the shop and then I just said, Oh, we might be out there. Cause there were a bunch of us. I grabbed Josh from the shop and an Olympic say it was snowy. And we just went out to the course and I just said, look, there's going to be a chance we're going to be out there. We might be near the course, if you want to do a sneaky little fly by maybe in between races. I just had my fingers crossed. They saw us, but they saw us and it was crazy. It's actually about five knots of wind here. I, so it was hard to get on the foil. It looks as though it's like windier than it is, but it's pretty light. So we all got up on the fall, luckily and heard the sound of the choppers come over. We couldn't really believe it that they were going to film us in between the race, but I guess it's cool because it was on the live YouTube feed. We get this kind of, it's pretty sweet getting this around the world. So yeah, they came over and like they were filming us super close. Like I've there was one pass. The chopper came over and I the wash from the blades, just seeing the wing and fly into my face and I just got nailed, but it was awesome. So we were, that was like an awesome memory. We got back to the boat ramp at an hour after dark and cause everybody's gotta go five knots back after the races. So there's all these sort of boats. It's crazy. Just the most amount of boats you can imagine just going five knots the whole way back to Auckland the city. So now that was that was it was a cool day. Yeah. Yeah there's, those sailboats are just amazing. And I guess they're really driving the technology of the whole foiling technology and computer science and all that kind of stuff for it. It's really amazing stuff that they're doing and the amount of money they're spending on it too. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, I was talking to the American magic guys. A couple of them. I shouldn't say this. I think they spend up to about, I think 150 million and, they do a couple of races and are out and it's pretty brutal. So I got pretty as I was gutted at the time for them. Cause I got to know them pretty well, quite a few of the silence for American magic and yeah, it was just outside of the house actually when I put the hall through the boat. So yeah, it just goes to show the gear is. Really pushing the limit and that, that close to breaking everything. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. Pull that was pulled goodness. And so he's the tremor for American magic. So he stands beside Dean Barker. Who's this, who's the helmsmen. And he's been like, as soon as they're out of the cup he's been like winging every day. I think he just takes me just then he came for a win. So it will be all these guys are temporarily unemployed, so they, it's pretty, pretty cool to see. When he like every single opportunity. That's awesome. Yeah. So a little backstory. Like we met and stayed in touch, and then you had emailed me like that you're coming out with your own wings and if I wanted to try one, so I said, sure. Send me a sample to test. And then I got it and I was really impressed. It's the, it was my favorite wing. I've tried so far and I've tried a lot of different wings just as really nice handling and smooth power and has that lofty feel, and is this a great wing? So congratulations on that. And I've seen a bunch of footage of myself. Using the way the PPC Wayne, this is my friend, Jeff doing a one-handed jump, but a lot of this is shot with a GoPro max. That's mounted on a pole on my back. But yeah, so I just wanted to ask you a little bit about the, the whole process of making your own wing design and, the how you, the whole process of doing that, and how he came up with that design. Yeah. Again, long it's a bef the wings came out and it was, I think it was yeah. 2000. Where are we now? 2000. So it was 2009 into 2019. When the first bunch of wings came out on the market. Something like that one, two years ago, right? Yeah. Yeah. We, I, yeah, so I made sure I got pretty much when they first came in and so I had a good amount of time using quite a few different brands and stuff and figuring out like, pretty quickly, like what I like. And didn't like, I it was funny when I first grabbed a wing, I was like, sweet. I just grabbed my stop, a little foldable, which is 80 liters and went down to the light near the shop and I just got owned and everyone laughed at me. So I went back off and got like 140 liter board and then I got it. But I've only got a little bit of exciting background. Like I said, optimist when I was a kid. So I don't have a huge sales background. So mainly just surf or board. So I got it, but I was pretty surprised at how quickly, like I progressed. And then understood quickly, like what a win should be or how it needs to feel to be an all round or kind of what you want. So I kinda, they locked down happened. So then it forced us. We were, I was living at manga magnify at the time, which is an hour North of here. It's kinda this cool little area with thousand people and it's got an inlet and a bar and it's really good place to taste and stuff. Luckily I had the jet ski as well I just started going for it really with with getting wings made and getting them seen and tasted them. I think we did about 29. 30 prototypes. Can you go a little bit into the the different variables that you tested in the prototypes and what made you yeah. And what the final design was based on? Yeah I S I worked alongside a top seller maker and like we, so we started with a frame, we had something to begin with. And then from there, the main, there are so many different things that we played around with, but the span the leading edge diameter, that was actually probably one of the trickiest to get, right. We went, too small, two 32 with the Strat and the leading edge. The leech tension was like a huge one. And I was lucky enough to actually talk to some top sellers here and they used the wing and checked it out. And, we we've had some pretty top people looking at the wings through the prototyping process. Which is pretty unique. So yeah, just to get like the F the first wings were flappy and they weren't that good. So that through Twitter, I'm making these fine adjustments. We even got a pretty good wing around like 15 or something. And then we just tweaked a few things handle positioning was probably one of the hottest, just going back and forth. Just to get these things balanced. Cause yeah I just found that so many wings were kinda, too far at the back or too far the front or something. And I don't know, I just this pure kind of middle kind of feel that you can just power on with you backhand. So that's the goal and it was amazing. It's millimeters with handles. Like we'd go a millimeter too far back, and then we'd have to go, a little bit through the forward and just get them right. But yeah we got there in the end and just, we were able to kind of video from the jet ski and just, see the thing flexing in the air if there was too much flakes or, we got to a point where we got pretty happy. It was pretty rigid. It was, on 90 kg and it was yeah. I feel like it's the combination with between, li like the white the balance and the path, without being too bulky, it is nothing worse to me than a bulky one. It's hard to use. And yeah. What was the dishes disadvantage of going with a thicker leading edge? Cause I find It's the Wayne where it's great, but the tips are pretty flexible actually, right? It's not that it doesn't feel super rigid. The structure of the tips of the wing anyway, when you go to yeah. When you go too thick, every time we went to too thick and the leading edge, it just lighter stuff. It's okay when you go when, but as soon as the wind just, decreases a little bit, it just doesn't fly quiet ride. It just, it's just a little bit too bulky and slow, and it's amazing how much the thickness adds to weight. That's what we were figuring out. It's yeah. So it's such a fine line between getting it right. I think as thin as you can go by, but while keeping the frame as rigid as you can. And in saying that it sounds really simple, but it was different. The wing was definitely the hardest thing I've ever had to be involved with, designing and prototyping and made boards that people really easy. The thing I really like about the wing is how nice it flies in neutral, when you're on a wave and you're just holding it next to you behind her, just flutters and sits there really like it's very well behaved. It's like a well-behaved dog on a leash versus the other wings. You always have to control them, the other wings are, they don't just sit there in neutral as well. Yeah. So what, how did you have it, was that part of the prototype process too, or? Yeah, a hundred percent. Cause that's a big thing for me. I love surfing. So when I'm on a wave, when I'm winging it, I definitely want to be as unmindful or whatever the word is of the wing as possible. Just to forget about it when you're riding. So I thought, yeah, with the design, without saying too much, it was definitely the Strat, which played a big part in that. And just bringing it a a little bit lower bringing it down a little bit compared to the leading edge which definitely helps Stabilize it my, my dad's a pilot, so I've got a little bit of flying background. I've got I nearly got my PPO, but I've got to do a few more hours, but I do have a bit of knowledge with flying. Actually the coolest experience I've ever had was definitely been in a glider. And like I noticed is it two to one for a fringe trench wing? I think he's, I don't know how to pronounce his name, but I can see, he glides he skis and does all this stuff and he puts it all together. You can see that he just puts it all together and it's pretty cool. Yeah. I recently just watch a video of him doing some amazing stuff on the waves, right? Yeah. He's pretty bad. Yeah. Yeah. That's my goal for sure. So just point breaks, wives the place that, you were in a power in a way with with the oven that that's a pretty cool spot for the wing when the winter. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have my stuff on my gear over there when we were there for the standard paddle race. But but yeah and I decided to say thanks to Dan Regan who invited me over there and he's our distributor and a distributor in New Zealand. And he's really, he really got into Wingfoot link two years where he was more of a standup paddler and then he got into stand up foiling and now he's heavily into winging. And I think he said that you got one of your wings too, right recently. Yeah, he did. He's loving it. So I saw him last week, caught up with him for a quick coffee. He's good to have around. He's a bit of a froth, so he's yeah he grabbed it and loves it. So that's good. We're yeah we're getting a few wings out for sure. And New Zealand, so yeah, it sounds like you've been selling out every time you get them in. Like how many have you sold so far of the, I think we might've sell it about 250, maybe in New Zealand. Mostly it's just in New Zealand. That's just New Zealand. Yeah. So that's, it's not too bad. Because New Zealand only has what like 7 million population. Yeah. Five I think. Oh, 5 million. We have a lot of sheep, so yeah. No, I think it's about five, just over five. So yeah, it goes to show the amount of people that write, who are into watersports here. Yeah. It's pretty cool. But yeah, it's pretty satisfying seeing the wings out there flying well and getting really good feedback. And yeah, one of the big things for me is just listening to customers and just getting really, and just listening to them with feedback. And, some of them might say some crazy stuff, but some of them, a lot of your customers say pretty stuff that you should listen to. So that's been definitely one of my designing definitely got always listened to the customer. Yeah. So what about your board? We've got your boards in the store from Dan, which is cool. So we're starting to sell a few of those people are loving them. Yeah. That's awesome. Good. Glad to hear that. Yeah. Thanks for carrying our boards. Appreciate that. And then, yeah, I was going to say then this drawn footage I'm using the four eight, and then in the other footage, I was using the three eight analysis of a five eight. So you have basically one F one meter increments. Two eight three eight four eight five eight, right? Yeah. Yeah. I know a lot of companies use percentage increments, but I wanted to keep it pretty simple. And we tried that with prototyping and we tried percentage increments, but it just worked out that 2.8, 3.8, 4.8 and 5.8. Worked really well for the size and for the wind range that, that designed for, yeah. I was surprised that duo is going with past meter increments. Yeah, they're doing like four or 4.5, five and 5.5 and so on. And but I don't know anybody that's going to buy every single size in that range. So it's like people want to only buy a one wing actually. Yeah, they do. I'm trying Convince people they need to for the whole wind range. And yeah, one of my things when designing the wing was definitely to design, like the 3.8 to me has quite a big wind ranch, like depending on what foil you're going to use, I can use a 3.8 and like 10 knots up to 25, which is pretty cool. And that's what a lot of customers are saying as well that out the wind range without wings is really good for the size. So I noticed quite a few bigger wings on the bucket didn't really have the path that they should have had for the size. And that was my key thing. So making them as small as possible for as powerful as you could possibly give them. But I think there's a long way to go. I think we're only scratching the surface. Yeah. I definitely agree with that. I think there's. It's definitely a lot of opportunity for improvements. Yeah, especially I think the wings and the foils too are, and just seems like the foils keep getting better too. Actually I w so what kind of food, what's your favorite foil to use right now? What brand and what foil wings do you like to use? Ooh, putting me under the pressure here. Cause I, I know the guys at Armstrong pretty well. AMI and vivid and stuff. I'm loving the Armstrong stuff. Yesterday I went fishing with Adrian Roper who does exits, so I'm using a bit of that. And I've been using a little bit of Moses as well, but I'm kinda coming back to Armstrong a lot for winging, just cause the white and jumping and it feels pretty good on it, my fate, but it's funny these questions cause you know, by having a shop, I've got a, I've got have the sh the shop cap on, and yeah, like the wing is probably like half the weight of an access foil with aluminum. Yeah. Access has that way. It's sometimes it's not a disadvantage of, it makes it feel more solid somehow and more rigid and a lot of people loving it. Yeah. And the access, on the Armstrong foils, which what's your favorite wing T wings to use? I kind of chop and change between, I don't really ride anything over the 15, 15 hour, if it's super light maybe the 1850, but it's between the eight 50 and the 1250. I and depending on what board I'm on. So if I'm on a little board and it's windy I've got a 33 liter little four O so I'll probably use the eight 50. And then if it's a little lighter, I'll probably use like a 60 liter board with the 1250 or 1550. It's 1250 as a lot of Lyft, actually. That's a really good fishing foil. It's pretty, it's got a big window in Arik and it's a good one. Like for point breaks and stuff you can pump through sections and yeah. I'm just loving love. It's cool. Being able to, it's cool. Actually not having my own foil and being able to try all these different foils right now. I know you've got your own foil, but you use anything, right? Yeah. I've been trying everything and I mean our Carver foils are the ones that we are on. Those are more, a little bit more entry-level are they really easy to use and forgiving and stuff, but they're not super, they're not the most high speed and most high-performance ones. Yeah. So I've been playing around with a lot of different foils while at the moment. Like I recently just started using the axis eight, 10. Have you tried that one? It's yeah, that's a really nice one. I really liked that one a lot. Before that I was using mostly the seven 60, which is also one of my favorites. It's a really good seven 60. And if it's really like the eight 62. But yeah, those are and then on the Armstrong, 1250, or even a 10 50, it's pretty fun doing in waves. Yeah. It's very current. Yeah. Talk a little bit about boards. You just emailed me a picture of second late latest prototype. Yeah, let me, so they talked a little bit about board design and what you like to use and stuff like that. Yeah. So we've, we were lucky enough to have a shape next to the shop. And it's been really cool with prototyping and just get the made so I can see the blank and get them done pretty quick and take them out on the water pretty fast. But yeah, so I'm gonna bringing out a new model, which is slightly wider. I just feel like, yeah, my, this model is, it was pretty good. The only thing, it probably lacked a little bit of stability, maybe, for the bigger, slightly bigger new people for the board linked. So I kinda, it's probably what you're doing, I'm just trying to get as much volume as possible and keep a swing right down. Trying to keep a pretty parallel line and a kind of a square towel after this board had a port entail. And I kinda, I, I realized, that it's okay for some people, but, you want to make it easy as possible, right. For people to grow, to grow the sport or whatever. So yeah. These are wider than a Dick concave, which is proving to be pretty cool. Yeah. And a, yeah, you have two stringers in there. Yeah. Two cabin stringers that go right through and right through to the front of board through the track to the back. And yeah, I'm going to do a arrange of bullets made in New Zealand, which is a different thing for me. I've always got most things made off shore. So I think that after the pandemic is being a support local kind of thing. So yeah, I'm going to, there'll be a ranch here made in New Zealand, so it's cool. Yeah, that is cool. Yeah. And the bottom shape, like what kind of contours do you have on the bottom of the board? So pretty smooth, kinda, it's just a double kind of double barrel kind of concave that actually runs through the whole board now. I've smooth it out a little bit, not so drastic. And then the board's got the same amount of nose Carrick and a little bit of tau kick. I find quite handy getting up on the foil when you're whinging, but yeah, it's, the bottom is like our first model, but just, it just continues. The concaves just continue straight through straight out in the back. Just getting the motor would have flow through the board or whatever. But yeah, it seems to be working pretty well. It's probably it's took it out the other day. I had a few people using it and yeah, people, so the size that it's pretty stable. Yeah. On the wings, the biggest, you touched on it a little bit, like the biggest size you make right now is 5.8. Is that correct? Or do you make a bigger one? Yeah, I was going to say personally, I find that like, when you go too big on the wing, it like, cause it also increases the wing span and it's it tends to touch easier on the water. And you end up not getting. That much more power by adding more surface area. It seems is that kind of what you're thinking? Like I know some companies make seven meters even bigger than that wings, but I've never, I've tried, but I've never had the desire to buy one that big, because it seemed like at that point I'd just rather not go winging and do something else. Yeah. I totally agree. My thoughts. Exactly. I think there's even like a nine out there maybe, but yeah. I a hundred percent agree. I feel like when you're holding something that cumbersome, it yeah. I don't know. It's odd to handle it. Just go towing, go surfing, go fishing. No, I, yeah I don't know. I'm considering doing something around six. But on the only, only considering, but I'd rather play around with new materials and see if we can get the same amount of grunt and just reduce the weight a little bit before we just start going bigger to get more efficiency. Cause I think that possibly maybe with a material change in the design change, we don't have to go bigger to get more pal. Yeah. Interesting. You talking about materials? I just talked to Todd from ocean rodeo yesterday and about there, they're coming out with the Lula fabric frame, leading edge and and this which is like a super light material, and still very strong that lighter weight. So is that what you're talking about? New materials is, are you considering those. Yeah, I had it. Yeah. I had to look, I knew someone was going to come out with that about a year ago or two years ago. I looked at that material, but wise just, wasn't it doable with production, but it's different. It's pretty cool that someone's doing it. I think I've got a couple of things going on right now in New Zealand, but I'll keep you in the loop with, but yeah, I the pricing is crazy. It's like twice as much as a regular wing house in terms of, yeah, like right now, I think like recreation wise I'm really happy actually with what we have and everybody getting into it, you can almost, yeah. When you change materials and you make them super, super efficient, you're kinda dealing with a pretty small market. I think we're going to go there when we start racing if we do. But my things in the surf and in the waves, but I guess with every sport we're probably gonna, it's probably gonna go rice, isn't it? With wing on my thoughts and then I think we will see some pretty drastic material changes. Like you do, with the Moss, the four-lane Moss, the sails are carbon cloth, like super, super thin been through a few international Semite, Sal makers factories here in Oakland. And I've seen some pretty cool stuff being produced, but again, it's, cost-wise, I don't think people are going to pay 3000 or 2000 us for. Oh, they might, for always want to have the best, so if something is clearly clear, then I think people will buy it, but it has to be significantly better it's for them to spend that much money, I think. But yeah, I was going to talk about the handles real quick too. I find myself on a 3.8 and 4.8 using mostly the widest grip, the front handle and the back handle. And then on the five eight, I use like the middle handle in the back. Is that the same, like you do or is that how you design them or, yeah, I go to the Y I go to the widest group as possible and least it's if it's absolutely nuking, I'll probably use a smaller wing anyway. So I think with every wing I used the widest possible, but I've got a pretty wide span. I actually went a little bit narrower. But do you find the, have you used the widest the front and the back and the 5.9, do you think that's a little bit too wide? Is it is it both ways? And sometimes when I if I want to jump out, grab the back handle, but for regular riding, I find that on the five, eight, the second to last handle in the back work better for me, for some reason. I dunno. Yeah. And I think it's just going to change with everybody's spans and whites and styles and, sorry. You think it needs more handles? I noticed some manufacturers. I came from the, I came from the duotone wings w whichever, boom. And then, yeah. Yeah. And for so it took me a while to get used to the handles, to be honest when attacking and stuff like that. I would miss the handle though. I'd have to look where to grab and, but, over time you're going to get used to it. And now I can actually pretty much find the handle without looking for it most of the time, but having the rigid handle definitely has an advantage. And then I dunno, I think that's something that could be improved so on the wings is like the handles. I think having the center inflatable center strap really helps with keeping the wing on the water, floating. And then also when you're flying on the wave, it's a neutral, it keeps it flying straight, it doesn't take talk back and forth, like the, without the center strata tends to do that wandering thing, instead of slacking. And. But yeah, and that's what when I did the interview with Alan cadets, he mentioned that to the new duotone slick wing, cause it has an inflatable center strategy. It's more at handles nicer because of that. But yeah, I think that's something, I think I just had to get used to the handles too, but it took me a little while to figure that out. Cause the nice advantage of having the stiff boom is that you can just slide your hand back and forth and you can just grab it anywhere. And then bringing it out. The water is easy to grab underneath the wing and describe the handle. So it took me a little while, but now that I'm used to the handle, I think it just as this is good and it definitely feels a lot lighter without the boom. I tried to make the handles like as rigid as possible. So it had a Bloomfield. Cause a lot of people in New Zealand and obviously in Maui and everywhere and Hawaiian wind surfers who are quite boom orientated, but there's been a few people hardcore boom guys that have used outwin who've just gone. Yeah, no, this is cool. We can deal with an inflatable Strat now. And so that's cool. So you sold about 250, there's a New Zealand. I find that amazing. Is that like when you go out on the water or like more than half of the people on your wings are like, yes. Yeah. I think like we we we are actually the only ones in New Zealand with a shop, whether on brand. And I think that helps to be on it, and there is actually no one in New Zealand. These is Armstrong, but you know that they're more international. Yeah, I focus pretty heavily on the local market. It's pretty good for me and, but I just really wanted to have a good wing. So my goal was never to just rush and put cause I had an opportunity to put a wing out straight away when the first ones arrived, but I just waited. I just really wanted to put a good wing out and yeah. So w we'll just update probably every year I've noticed a couple of other brands have updated quite a few, some are on like generation three or four or something now. But I think I'm going to just every single year. Yeah. Have a different version and we're working on it now, but it's a long way off yet. And yeah, right. Yeah. So anyone in the U S if you're interested in these wings, you can get them from us at blue planet surf. And I'm finding just to come out with, I told you I would make a video about the wings and I'm planning to still do that. Probably post that a little bit after this interview posts, but yeah, let's talk a little bit about just wing foiling in general, and then, some other random stuff, but can you talk a little bit about where you're at with your wing foiling and like what you're working on? Do you have any new moves that you're working on or what are you into these days? It's hu it's tricky one. Yeah, I think for me now I've been going to the Lake a little bit to test product, but now I'm just every time that winds up, I'm looking for a surf spot. So it's and this is why I find winging really cool, because it's I I didn't mention that before, but it's bringing all these different kinds of sports together. So you've got sailors and surfers and all these different kinds of sports coming together. And I'm noticing, the sailors, they love going fast. They love putting on a NHA wing and, or, smaller wing and going fast. It's not official, but my friend snowy, he's an Olympic style that he got like 30 knots here the other day, which is pretty fast, I think for winging. And then for me yeah, it's definitely finding surf spots. So finding point breaks and. I like wave riding. And the wing is just the answer, you don't have to get the jet ski all fueled up and go. Although when there's no wind, I love toe foiling. But yeah, for me, what I'm working on right now, I guess just going bigger. So bigger is like hitting the rents. You guys, it looks as though you got some pretty sweet conditions over your way. You'll so you definitely try to get in the waves too, but I find that sometimes, for winging or spoiling in general, you don't necessarily want to have the biggest steepest waves. You just want a, more of a mellow not too steep of a wave basically. Cause it's hard to control the foil and the faster steeper wave, unless you have, if you're tall, you, then you can use a tiny foil. So it's a little different. Yep, exactly. I reckon you need it's you need a really good combination of waves and wind. If you're going to drop your foil size. Especially if you're out somewhere on a point break and the tide's going out, like you you don't want to be stranded out there. And so I'm going, there's no one board that I'm using at the moment. So if I'm playing on a point break, I'm gonna use a board with a bit more volume because at least it's like really nuking. I don't really want to get stuck out there with nothing. And Paula noise is pretty shocky. Is that Paul? I knew he, like, when I was there, the wind was like straight off shore. Is it, is that the normal conditions there? Or they getting like Southeast, which comes right out the beach, which is pure crusher. So it's yeah. So it's perfect. It just comes straight up and hits the point. So you're just like round and round. And I dunno, I think even goes out for seven hours. He gets in trouble with the wife. That's such a beautiful place. Yeah. Yeah. What are you working on? I w all kinds of stuff that I like one that I've been trying to pull off. This is my friend Daniel trying to do backflips. There's a couple of of he's starting to do that, and I'm thinking about it, but I haven't really throw myself backwards yet, but I have been trying to do the spins, into the wind, like turning the board through the wind, and then it's weird, cause I landed a couple of them. By the first time I tried them. My first session, I tried it, I landed a couple. And then since then, like that was like three or four months ago. And I haven't been able to land a single one since. And I think it's all the way, getting the wing right on the landing, it's tough. Same thing happened to me. Yeah. It's almost I don't know what, cause I, I used to be able to do threes and rodeos and back flips and front flips on skis and the snow. And then I thought, but I dunno with the whole wind thing, when you get here it's definitely a lot of, and that's why all these wind surfer, these guys like balls and stuff, they just know exactly where to put the wing in the wind to help rotate you around, which is, yeah, I need to try it a lot more. When I did a three, I keep the wing just facing one way and I passed the handles around it's I did it, but it's probably not the right way to do it, but it would have for me, that's us Dean is doing it too and stuff, but yeah, you did that way. If you do it that way, you just have to stick the landing perfectly. Cause you don't have any power in the wing if, until you grab it again, and so when you teach beginners or you get people into winging, what are your, like your top tips to give to beginner wing feathers? I'm in the shop cause we teach people we've got a jet ski luckily, and we take people out and teach them how to foil first, before the wings so that they don't have to at the same time to do together, which I think is crazy. I think you should do it. I, my opinion, I think you should learn to foil first and then grab a wing, play with it on the land, maybe jump on a skateboard or something, but get a feel for the wing and then combine them and put them together. But I'm always just saying, just go big, just go bigger than you think with everything. So big with a board, big with a foil and and yeah just make it easy and go out when there's wind. So 15 knots all over. When you're putting it all together. Yeah, definitely. When you're starting out it's hard. It's you need more power to get it going, like bigger wing, bigger foil, more wind. And then as you get better, it seems like you can go down in size with everything because once you figure out how to pump it up and get it going. Exactly. Yup. Yeah. Any other tips? And then there's the whole, cause there's a whole thing. Like I think there's a fear with people buying a board that's maybe too big and then they progress and need a smaller board. At the shop in New Zealand, we're gonna, we're going to lease some bigger boards. So it's seven foot by 32 kind of barges. We're just going to lace them and just the people can learn without maybe buying a board straight away. Then I'm going to buy it back and resell it again or something. Yeah. Yeah, that's kinda, it's probably not like the greatest business side, profit idea, but I think it will grow the sport, what we need to do. I think. Yeah. I think you're right. The, it definitely, the, it's definitely much easier to learn on a bigger board. These, this board I'm using as a wing, the wing master for four six, and like it's no, no good to learn on. It's just too small and too to, get on your knees and it's tippy and hard to use. And, but once you get the basics down, then that's kinda what you can use, so you all grow a big board pretty quickly. And I usually tell people, try to get a used one or borrow one from a friend or something like that instead of spending, and don't spend a lot of money on a really big board anyways, because you're going to offer exactly. Yep. And yeah it's not most affordable sport in the world, but yeah it's quite a bit of gear. It's what quite a few people maybe put off with the gear or whatever, but I think that's definitely going to become more affordable and a lot of different options. This set up here is actually one of the first times I used the PPC wing. I think I was the second day I use it and right away I felt really comfortable on it. Oh really? I brought it right away. Pretty balanced and yeah, no, that's a great way. It is. It did a good job on that. Okay. Let's talk a little bit about just life in general. In terms of what else are you interested in? And do you have any hobbies or cross training or other sports or interests. Yeah, I'm actually looking forward to taking the wing to the mountains and I'm like jumping off some cliffs. I've seen some cool footage with Kai and stuff lately. So that's been pretty sweet and yeah, we just saw I'm really pumped on like winter coming, which is weird. Cause yeah. So I'll definitely be taking the wings to the mountain. Where do you go? I guess on the South Island you go where do you go and which model? Hopefully down South, I've got some friends in Wanaka and Queenstown. And so we'll stay down there. Actually. That's another thing, a lot of people are just winging on the lakes down here. I'm like, it's perfect in the summer they get heaps of wind. So a lot of people are yeah. Loving it down there at the moment. So yeah, there's that. And then I play a bit of golf. And then I like fishing, cause it takes my mind off. Boiling. Cause I do it for, a job like you. I dunno. How do you get away from it all? A good question. I just try to do stuff that's meditative and not yeah. Where you can clear your mind, and I love to go hiking actually. Like I was a score on solo hikes, try to go where no one else is around and just get out in nature and immerse myself and not listen to anything and just try to be almost empty, just clear the mind, basically not think about stuff too much. Yeah. Finding golf balls the other day golf course. Yeah. I really got into golfing. I figured that's something I can do when I get old for me. Yeah. It really takes my mind off things. You have to focus. Yeah. I You have to focus on what you're doing. Yeah. That's quite frustrating. Like a daily routine. Like when you get up in the morning, first thing, there's certain things you just do it as a routine. I usually just get up and have a. Have a call. I have a coffee with my family four year old Tanika and and I'll check the wind straight away. So like I never used to check wind charts, but everyday it's just chicken, the wind shot straight away. It used to be a swell chart that kind of chatting. So I'm checking that. And then and then it's kinda, no, I don't think I'm a UAE with a shop, so I've just got to be a little bit involved there. And so what's yeah. So what's your typical day? Like a day in your life or what's it like? Typical day, get up, check the wind. If there's wind I'll definitely win. Cause I've got staff, I've got Denise in the shop she's really organized and I'm pretty lucky there. I'll try and hit out of the water. If I can't hit out of the water I'll come into the shop and I'll pretty much figure out what I need to do to work on the wings. So the boards, or I'll go next door and have a look at some blanks and pretty much, and then just deal with a bit of production emails, how it is that affects tree stuff. Just make sure everything it was running smoothly. Really. There's no day where, every day different, which I love and if I can get out, and that's why I love winging so much lately, because with when it was busy through the summer, I could at least get out on the water for an hour and just recharge with the wing and to get back to the office a little bit. And then, yeah, I'm pretty I'm pretty cruisy guy. Get back, watch him, watch a movie with a family. Pretty chilly. You have a four year old, this is a Boyer girl. Izzy girl. And I can't wait to take her and get her into this, so I think she's ready to get on the foil board with me. Nice. Yeah. That's, it's cool too. That seems like the younger generation is really interested in it too. This sport just has such a broad appeal, which is which I find cool. It's not just us older guys, yeah, exactly. That's what I think a lot about lately with wings and stuff and boards just, yeah. Designing them for kids actually. And just I go, I went around quite a few of the yacht clubs here and a lot of New Zealand has a pretty good reputation for the sailors. I think in a lot of the clubs were looking at winging as a form to teach the kids how foil works. With the latest America's cup stuff, it's how many kids would just fall on it. So I think, yeah it's actually an affordable way. How to figure out how foil works. The wings sit up. I was going to ask you, when you when you're wing feeling, do you switch your stance or do you keep it like in place? Like I do I keep it in place? Yeah. I'm a surfer. Yeah. If people are people have somebody all the time about it, but I don't really care. I've learned twisting and point my back foot, you forward a little bit to open up my body and I can put pretty high now on my backside. Oh, check this out. This is my friend Derek he's. He has like lines on his wing so he can hold it way up high. It's like almost a cross between winging and cutting, so it's like most of you. What about you guys switching your stance? Are you guys staying in the sear stance? My good friends are staying in the surf stance, and I think, especially when you're using really small boards, it's, that makes it hard to, to switch. But I think one, once you if you didn't learn to do it in the beginning on a bigger board, yeah. It's really hard to figure it out on a small board. It's just most simple. Yeah, I did it at the I did it the other day and it just felt like I was learning for the first time. So maybe that's something I'll work on actually switching my stance because I know for a fact it's going to be bitter. If you're doing the GAAP, when reaches and stuff, you just point high a hundred percent. Yeah. Oh, I just realized did I wasn't sharing my screen. Huh? I thought I was screen-sharing this whole time. Sorry. I thought that I just going along with it. Oh geez. Okay. I got to show this. I got to show this footage of Derrick. Again, so that just realize it didn't have my screen sharing on wait I to go back here, but Schutz. Yeah, I've been playing video footage and was talking about it's full time, but Derek Yamasaki, his name says this footage is pretty cool. It's got lines on the wing. It's like way up high. It's kinda cool because when it, when the wing is higher off the water, you get more power to, yeah. Cause it's a little bit windier up higher. Let's talk a little bit about the whole pandemic and all that. How has it affected you? And I know New Zealand is one of the few places where that's been relatively unaffected by the pandemic. Normal life is pretty much, you guys are pretty much back to normal. Yeah. Yeah, I feel I was pretty lucky. Honestly, it's yeah, it would be, we've had it pretty good. We've had a couple of lockdowns that we, business, the business had to be shot, which is it's pretty tough shutting up is, but, I looked at other countries it's way worse. So I actually, yeah we kinda, when the pandemic happened, we would go to level three and we can all just say can we wing? And we'd, we'll just meet up down at the local wing spot and we could at least wing in kinda hit the water and go for walks and stuff. But yeah I feel like we're in our little bubble here. Yeah. Especially with the older America's cup stuff going on. It's yeah. I just feel pretty lucky that you guys have you guys been in a similar kind of. I know, we've had several shutdowns and and a lot of people out of work cause there's no tourism and stuff like that. So it's been a lot of people pretty seriously, yeah. That, that definitely a lot of tourism sort of companies down in, especially Queenstown down South, relying on. I think, some of these America's cup sailors staying in hotels and then a lot of the only ones at the moment. And I spoke, talking to the hotel managers saying that, you'd have to book a year in advance this time of the year. So it's certainly affected tourism. And but I think we're just fortunate enough to be in this industry. And a lot of people just, they need it, they need to take their minds off things. Wing, foiling, surfing, and these sort of sports have been pretty busy like busier. And I think we've seen that. With supply demand issues in factories, things like that. But yeah. Yeah. And you had a hard time getting enough inventory of your boards and stuff like that. We were having issues with that. We can't, we don't have enough boards and stuff. A hundred percent. Yeah. We were, we run out of bullets of return mounts even. I always have boards in production. I get some of my boards made in Vietnam and it doesn't matter where, so yeah. And fright has tripled or nearly quadrupled in price since three years ago. So it's difficult, but I'm making it work. So for people that are I know a lot of people during the pandemic, like being stuck at home, they feel lonely or, depressed or anxious and stuff like that. Like how, do you have any friends that go through that? And what would you tell people? Or do you have any advice on staying positive and living a good life? Cause I, I listened to Rob your podcast the other day and I agree with him. Don't listen to the news too much, and just get out there because yeah I think the city didn't use a lot and just get in, I dunno, just, it can really create a lot of anxiety. I think if you just, the sky is still blue, it's, if you can get out there and just enjoy it and safety yeah, I I've just been watching a lot of Netflix. That's the only thing, a lot of good Dockers on Netflix lately. Yeah. Yeah. I dunno. There's a lot of good stuff then you don't know the formula one stuff was crazy seeing those guys, the new season three and how they handled the pandemic and they still made it work, and there's a lot on the line, I think. Yeah. The first one was canceled in Melbourne, but the, they still had a season of formula one and it's just a line in that sport. So it was cool to see like things are still continuing, but I'm traveling. That's pretty cool. Oh yeah, just having the America's cup here was, ah, it was just amazing, meeting up, having good chats with Jimmy and paid and Dean and stuff. Dean Barker. He's the helmsmen for. American magic. He's a Kiwi and he's he's learning to wing at the moment. So like he, yeah, he must be like, I don't know. I shouldn't say maybe 50, 50, 55, but there's, to me, there's like much of an age limit on whinging, which like, I love about it. It's huge. Like I had an 88 year old come in the shop the other day wanting to win and I'm going to teach him. That's awesome. So I'll teach him on that big board and I'll do it safely, Chuck a helmet on him, but I think also, so that'd be cool. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking about what you're saying about the the news and stuff like that. And I think on social media too, it's I guess they call it doom scrolling. It's once you start looking at those kind of Yeah, negative news and stuff. It just feeds you more, as like the more you look at it, the more it feeds you. And it just puts people in that state of it's like almost it's like poor design, I was like people that are already anxious, you get they just get more and more of that. And it's it's terrible. Yeah. There are a lot. I like to ditch my phone every now and then. I, w when I'm fishing the other day, I thought about checking it on the water, but no, I just, I, yeah, like when I know, cause I lived in California for a good year and a half and I I know how it is over there. There's a lot of stuff going on. It's kinda, it's not like New Zealand, so it's kinda, there's just a lot more noise. I feel like we're away from it a little bit here, but I can see in other countries how you can get pretty wound up in it. Even, yeah that's what you focused on too though, yeah. It's like you said, it's you know what you know what you don't have to look at it. You don't have to look at your phone all the time. No, I, honestly, I think a wing has kept me pretty sane the last year. It's been like, I'm just stoked. It's kind long. Who would have thought we'd be holding onto this wind thing and having such a blast. But it, I feel like it has actually say, be quite a bit like mentally, like to have this, to look forward to every single day. So it's been, yeah. It's yeah. It's going to be around for a long time. I think I don't think it's going anywhere. Yeah. A hundred percent agree. It's kept me saying to, for sure. Yeah, no, don't okay. Your videos and look at your more motor and tropical, consistent winds and stuff and get pretty jealous. So as soon as we can travel on, yeah, we're fortunate. But it's not always like this either, this week, we're not gonna have any wind, probably no wing floating for about a week. Sometimes people come here for a week and they think they're going to be winging every day, but it's not like that. Maybe 50% of the time. It's good, might come here for two weeks and not get any when you know, I'm, mommy is always windier. If you're coming, you want guaranteed wind. Definitely Molly's by the place to go more than a wahoo. Yeah, I love Maui because she goes, islands is like a funnel. It funnels the wind between the Westmont mountains and Holly, I believe it when we were playing from a wahoo to Maui and there was no window Oahu when we took off. And when we arrived in Valley, it was, did Palm trees were just like, it was like 30 knots. It was crazy capping everywhere. Yeah. It's pretty crazy like that for sure. I just, yeah the wing didn't exist then. So it was just downwinders. So you just pretty much started your business by yourself and grew it and did you have any help or partners or anything like that? No. So I feel kinda, it's funny cause like a lot of these companies around me and I've got quite a few people involved, I look at pretty much every company around me, like Armstrong, they et cetera. I feel like a bit of a small fry cause it's just me, but yeah it's almost it's not too bad being small because then you can do shorter runs and make sure that, your product's still at the top of the game. You can do it in a way where you don't have to have such a big sort of volume kind of machine. I dunno, it's hard to explain, but yeah, a lot of the other companies I'm looking at have 10, 20, 30 people we've just got a few it's just me and the factories and a couple of stuff in the shop. Yeah. Yeah. Is there anyone you want to thank for their support or that's there for you and. Just my panic, probably just for putting out with me and family and stuff and, everyone that supports me in New Zealand at the shop. And yeah, I'm just going to keep developing keep the product improving. That's my goal for the next few years, anyway, just to keep improving things. And right now you're doing mostly, most of your sales are just consumer directed. You're just dealing directly with the customers more than, yeah. It's directly with customers. And I think, yeah it's pretty unique to be able to just taste here in New Zealand. I think we've got a pretty cool place for testing. Like at the time where I was testing the wing, there was no one around, so that was pretty cool. Just being able to do that with no one, like coming up to me on the beach and but a guy like that is cool. And when I'm an Oakland, like you come out from the car pocket where we wing it tech burner, you're going about like 10 to 20 people around you sometimes like asking you what is this new sport? So it's pretty crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And I, for people here in Hawaii, like going traveling to New Zealand is really nice because it's only one hour time difference, really. So you don't really even get jet lag, you instantly adjust to the different time zone. And then, that's a different day, but the hours, it's only one hour difference the daylight. And then you're in the opposite side of the planet. So it's your winters are summer and the other way around. So I guess it's nice for you guys to come to Hawaii in your winter when it's summer over here. The cuvees come here for that. Yeah. Definitely breaks up the winter. I feel like up North though, it's not too bad. I used to live down South freezing, you'll be winging with gloves on. And that's why I keep thinking about handles with gloves. Just making sure the gap's big enough, but for the colder parts of the world, it was the thing to keep it. I didn't think of that in the United see, went to Russia and the guy's ah, I'm using my three millimeter gloves. That's feeling a little tight. So I thought, Oh, dammit, maybe I'm going to have to make a bigger bet for the handles. But yeah, I dunno, just seeing these wings around like different parts of the world, especially like Russia and stuff. And it's crazy seeing, your own brand around the world w in Australia are I've got a guy over there, Jason, a wing man. He's doing pretty well. So people are loving the wings and ALS, so that's cool. Yeah, I think it's for me I kinda just love my life like right now. And I love my lifestyle and I think I don't want to grow super fast or get an investor on board. I'm happy just doing what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Self-funded, that's all, I think always the best way and just better to grow slower, but keep the ownership and be able to do. That's my philosophy and I guess we're actually similar in a lot of ways that, I volunteer shop. So a lot of direct. Yeah. Yeah. And you ship all around the us, right? Drop. Yeah. Yeah. We do a lot of air cargo shipping. It's actually pretty affordable. We actually have free shipping on our website because we can, just included in the price when we sell so boards online. That's so cool. Yeah. So how about you? Do you ship to Australia too? Do you ship boards or mostly just your wings or everything, or, like it's a little bit harder, I think, for it to ship from New Zealand and yeah, it is, it's pretty expensive. So mostly the wing and that, that's a good thing about the wing it's been pretty affordable to to seeing around the world. Boards are another thing. I think if someone wants to sell bulls of stuff, go to Phillip and China. It's I think it's crazy if writing boards. I, yeah, I used to if like prototypes, which yeah, I think it used to be like 1200 New Zealand or something just for one little board. So it's quite cool being able to prototype and just prototype in a New Zealand now with the boards that but yeah, I think, yeah, the wing is great. It's so small. It just doesn't take up any storage as well. So I think. Yeah. Do you find that easy to totally it's easier than the board. You don't have to package it. It's already comes in a little box. Yeah. Unloading a container of SOPs is a big job or a few containers for you. I would say. Yeah, it is. I'm just looking at your background. It looks kinda like one of those fake zoom backdrops, but you earlier, you showed me your backyard. Can you show us your little pool and stuff yet? It's a real background. It's not a fake background. Oh, is that right? Yeah. Yeah. I heard Baltz molar. Tal

Welcome back to You Don't Have The Range! I'm your host Oghosa and today I DEFINITELY have the range for this one! I definitely had First African Daughter Syndrome (FADS for short lol!) We'll be breaking down all the dysfunction and drama that comes with being a First African daughter. Get ready to shout at your phone in agreement with us and get your tissues ready. We go IN. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Get 10% off your online therapy on Better Help, here: www.betterhelp.com/oghosa Find Mo: Instagram: www.instagram.com/mochunks YouTube: www.youtube.com/mochunkstv Twitter: www.twitter.com/mochunks Follow me www.instagram.com/youdonthavetherange www.instagram.com/sincerelyoghosa

Some of the two most hated words from hockey spouses: Long Distance. Karlee, married to Parker Bowles, who finished last season in Znojmo, Czech Republic in the EBEL, joins me on the podcast today for our conversation about long distance! Karlee and Parker did long distance off and on for TEN years but are finally together again! They met at a really young age and throughout their time together had clear communication and really understood each other’s needs and wants. They made it work and came out the other side! That’s not to say they didn’t have their bad days (and they definitely wouldn’t do long distance again!) but overall, feel like it made their relationship stronger. In this episode, we chat about love languages, time differences and all things long distance. I love how Karlee talks about not putting so much pressure on your relationship when you are apart, and I’m not gonna lie guys...I DEFINITELY did this! I felt this pressure to have these deep meaningful conversations for an hour every night and let’s face it….YOU DON’T ALWAYS HAVE SOMETHING TO TALK ABOUT and if your conversations get stale and boring THAT’S NORMAL!!!! Hope you enjoy this epi!

Today is the 100th Episode of the Feed U Podcast I thought about a giveaway or a contest, but I realized sharing the biggest takeaways of recording 100 episodes would have a BIGGER impact on helping you grow your business.  In this week's episode, I give you the down and dirty on lessons learned (most of them the hard way, because that's how I roll) of recording and pushing this podcast live for almost two years.  Come with me down memory lane and take notes, because this episode is jam-packed with success tips that will help you soar forward and climb higher. If you would have told me that 100 episodes would have flown by so quickly, I DEFINITELY would not have believed you. Episode 100 was definitely a trip down memory lane and a reminder of how far I have come and how much more there is to learn. When I started this podcast it was with the intent of helping others, that hasn't changed.  But lots of ups, downs, and hiccups along the way led me to narrow down the top 12 lessons I learned about podcasting, interviewing and sticking with a goal.  All of which has impacted my business, my goals, and how I will show up in the future. Listen to the entire episode here. The show notes are short and sweet this week, so be sure to tune into the entire episode to get all the behind the scenes scoop. What did you learn from this episode?  After you listen to the episode, come share in the Facebook Group your biggest takeaway and what lesson will impact your future business decisions. Not in the group yet? Consider this your official invitation to join the Small Business Builders Community in the Facebook Group. Small Business owners unite to feed each other with inspiration, information, experiences, and knowledge.

Greetings, Congregation! Hope you're listening to this 6 ft apart. First, I surprise my mom for mother's day by ambushing her with a bunch of questions about demons! Then, I bring Dr. Michael Heiser back on the show to talk about his new book, Demons! Mike and Jed go into some pretty theologically dense territory, and may not get to all of Jed's questions, but a great time was had by all. I DEFINITELY encourage all of you to check out Mike's work! You can find his new book or any of his old books on amazon, or drmsh.com churchandotherdrugs@gmail.com patreon.com/churchandotherdrugs storefrontier.com/churchandotherdrugs

In this episode, Matt and I go over listener submissions pertaining to new habits they have developed during these different times. Our discussion leads us into a continuation of episode 32 where we share our thoughts on recent movies we have seen without spoiling them. Let us know if you have any movies recommendations and we will discuss them on future episodes! Thank you very much or listening, like, subscribe and stay tuned for content dropping every other Monday! Stay safe everyone! Note: since recording this episode I have watched almost all of Clone Wars, and I DEFINITELY recommend!

The lineup keeps getting better and better with the latest guest being the legendary Craig Alexander! Every now and then we get the privilege to speak to an athlete who has played a big role in shaping our sport into what it is today. Craig has been competing in the sport for over 25 years now and is still continuing to perform at top level caliber. He has over 50 IM 70.3 wins to his name, with 5 world titles, and an endless list of accolades. Craig has a wife and three kids and has lead by example in what it takes to get longevity out of the sport all while keeping balance in your family life. Craig has been announced as one of the Team Captains for TEAM INTERNATIONAL in the Collins Cup via the Professional Triathletes Organisation, so Craig is here today to chat with us about what the Collins Cup is all about and how he will approach this first race as a captain and we dive into race tactics, race details and so much more. Now you are all probably thinking by now; is this race even going to happen now with COVID-19? To be honest, our guess is as good as yours. And I don’t think we’ll know until we see how the next month or so shapes out to look like. But, if this race doesn’t happen at the end of May, you can be rest assured it will be postponed and it will be one exciting race to watch. Now as we talk about COVID-19 we also talk about training as age groupers and professional triathletes throughout a season with race potentials unknown. Craig with over 25 years experience in the sport shares some incredible motivation and insight that I DEFINITELY think you need to hear if you are feeling overwhelmed or unsure on where to take your training from here. To end off the chat, Craig dives into his on-course race fuelling strategies and we also chat about his everyday diet and healthy lifestyle habits which have allowed him to truly get longevity in the sport and how we can do the same in our own journeys. This is an awesome podcast episode so I hope you enjoy it as much as I did; and now… let’s get into it!

Today’s guest is one of the biggest names in Triathlon right now and that is German Professional Triathlete; Daniela Bleymehl! I am excited to talk with Daniela today because she has an incredible list of accolades in her racing career with 4 Full Distance wins including Challenge Roth 2018 and IRONMAN Italy 2018! She also has had several amazing 70.3 distance wins and she is absolutely a fierce competitor to watch out on the course! In today’s chat we talk about her latest win at Challenge Heilbronn in Germany as well as her recent DNF at the grueling IM Frankfurt race and then less than one week later she toed the line of Challenge Roth and having a podium finish after being the Reigning 2018 Champion! Daniela also happened to be at Roth with the Swiss Side Team to talk to people about Aerodynamics on their bikes which if you haven’t heard the podcast episode yet that we had with the Founder of Swiss Side then I DEFINITELY recommend checking that out (after this podcast of course!) We also get to talk to Daniela and hear about her incredible backstory of how she got into triathlon, how she trains, and what her plans are going further the rest of the season ahead! Daniela ends off the episode with a few great training tips and wise words for age group triathletes so tune in, relax, Enjoy the Podcast!

In this “episode” (this feels SUPER weird doing...) I answer a fraudulent call from a supposed identity-theft protection agency that works with PC Financial MasterCard. I recognize the scam, right away and eventually get their permission to record THEM on MY call. They try to trip me up, here and there, but I keep trying to PULL information out of them (likely fake) while avoiding giving them any of my own. I record my calls with the scammers, the voicemail for their front, the police, and eventually the RCMP. It’s not always exciting, but I DEFINITELY have had fun with this! I hope you like it, and I hope it helps while out some of that ID Theft stuff that seems to happen more and more.

With it being mid January right now, New Year's resolutions are either going strong, or starting to fizzle out no matter how GOOD our intentions were. The other day, I was reading an artcile about New Year's resolutions and they had polled over a 1000 people… among that sample, almost HALF of them had diet resolutions, with the top approaches being low carb, basic calorie restriction (which could include just eating healthier), keto, and low-fat. As a wellness coach, I DEFINITELY have my own opinions about all of those approaches, cough cough especially keto, but I wanted to bring on someone even more specialized to chat about diets,  nutrition, and how they fit into a healthy lifestyle this week, so I brought on a registered dietitian, and WNBF bikini pro, Kara Corey! Kara really specializes in providing science-based, accurate nutrition information for the fitness community, and she does so through her YouTube channel, Kara Corey Fit Life, where she has a dietitian talk series, documents her competition preps, and shares tons of healthy recipes and lifestyle tips. She has over 100k subscribers, and for good reason, because Kara truly knows her stuff! So in this interview, Kara and I covered a TON of topics, but the standouts to me were: breaking down where to start if you're overwhelmed with nutrition, how to make healthy eating a truly enjoyable lifestyle, and how we can pursue physical health AND mental health at the same time.   SHOW NOTES: http://grindandbegratefulpodcast.com FOLLOW MARIE: http://instagram.com/marieewold FOLLOW KARA: http://instagram.com/karacoreyfitlife

Do you have some theories about MHA? Well so do we! This week, Travis and Ant talk about some of the biggest mysteries and fan theories in My Hero Academia. Missing children, family feuds, and I DEFINITELY think Mineta is the traitor.

Hey Working Comic Fans, sorry for the delay! I've been super busy moving into my new place and balancing several shows that I'm producing. I really think that this episode was worth the wait as I had the opportunity to interview Nick Rutherford. Nick is one of the original members of Good Neighbor Stuff, a viral sketch comedy group with a cult following. This group featured Nick Rutherford, Kyle Mooney, and Beck Bennett who all went on to work for Saturday Night Live. I was really excited to do this interview because Good Neighbor Stuff honestly formed a lot of my humor in High School and College. All of my friends and I were obsessed with their videos. I DEFINITELY recommend checking them out. Here are some things we talk about: Pomodoro Technique for productivity, Taking a step back for appreciation, How 'Good Neighbor Stuff' formed, Cold Calling Colleges, How Good Neighbor Made Sketches, Growth Hacking, The 'Good Neighbor Stuff' cult following, Sketch writing to tv writing, Writing for SNL, Writing for Adult Swim and How writing HAPPENS!

Hello. This is episode 137 I am about to eat a pillow. I have been back in California for about 24 hours. 4 of those on a plane and in a car. I am jet lagged and tired. Wiggins is not in the country, and frankly, I don't think my brain is either. I learned a lot on my visit to Virginia/Washington D.C. Lots about electric charging, ITS infrastructure, and lots about 'Murica. I ranted in the beginning and edited it out, so if you hear me talking about my "historical rant" later in the show, it's not there anymore for reference. I learned a lot about instant rain for those of you EAST of the Rockies. It got wet fast, and now I get the importance of rain gear. I just don't know what it looks like. I've made a few connections in the electric motorcycle field, and i've come across a few eMoto rags as well. I'll talk a little about the global companies that our own Zero, H-D, Alta, etc. have to battle with for market share. I barely had time to look up the Flat Track and Hooligan race results, and I DEFINITELY look forward to watching them now that I'm back. I have also been catching up on podcasts, and I recommend Motorcycles & Misfits SoCal adventures episode. We had fun and it was great hearing about their version of what went down. This show is phoned in. Not literally, but definitely everything that was bobbing around my brain while I was out of town came crashing out after I sat down at the microphone. Next week will be a little more organized. e-mail us: creativeridingpodcast@gmail.com or askwiggz@gmail.com check us out on the webs and leave a review when you have the time. Thanks e'ry body! Wheels up, kickstands down.

This one was a special thrill. I DEFINITELY took it to THE TOP of the country music business with this guy!     He came on our morning radio show in Albany NY years ago (he looks alot younger, and I had hair).   A few years after that, we had a country music festival in Saratoga, NY, and he invited me to go onstage and accompany him while HE sang!  How surreal was THAT?    I never forgot how friendly and generous he was of his time.  But it didn't end there.  He gave me 45 MORE minutes in between his busy schedule for this podcast.     If you know his songs, you'll love this.  If you are a musician, he digs a little deeper into his process of writing, his musical influences,  and keyboard technique as well.    His newest smash hit is "Fall Crazy" and you can hear it here  He also has a new TV series coming out on Fox TV -  Songs from the Cellar.  Watch for it!  More info at www.philvassar.com         SHAMELESS PLUG - BTW  I'm going to be at the Eden Cafe on Fri, July 20 and Fri Nov 2, in an intimate piano bar setting -for a special Country Nite! (I'll be attempting some of his songs among others old and new.     Info here   

Ooooohhh.... you guys! I have an awesome episode for you today. My guest is Ellie Holcomb. Ellie is a singer/songwriter, mom of two, and all around amazing person. Our conversation felt like we were long-time friends and I love the messages about motherhood, faith, and perspective that she shares. You're going to love getting to know Ellie today and I DEFINITELY suggest you go pick up her new album Red Sea Road today! Shows Notes: Ways to get her music: iTunes: bit.ly/EllieRSR Amazon: http://amzn.to/2k9GBhG Google Play: http://bit.ly/2ktkUHh Check out her website: https://www.ellieholcomb.com Follow Ellie on Instagram Connect with Jessica: Instagram//Facebook//Email  

节目组: The World Says 世界说 节目名称: Is time passing quickly or slowly开头曲 B a noBodyV: Hello everybody, welcome to the world says from the VOE foreign languages station. I'm VincentI: Hi dear audience, I'm Icey.L: And I'm Louisa. Did you have a good weekend, Vincent?V: Yes, but it flew by ,which means it went quickly, and here we are again, back at work!I: Hm. I know what you mean. Though I must say, time really dragged for me, and that means it went slowly. I was on a train, which broke down.V: Oh dear!I: And it felt like it took forever to arrive, though actually it was only delayed only by one hour.V: Well, today we're talking about our perception of , or the way we see – time. 插曲1 B a noBody I: It's true that when we're busy doing lots of things, time flies by. And when we're bored or have nothing to do, it drags. And I didn't have anything to do on the train. Do you think time flows at the same rate for everyone – even animals?V:My sister's little cat doesn't get bored doing nothing all day. I wonder if time drags for her sometimes?L:Good question! Did you know, Vincent, that, according to a new study, smaller animals perceive time as if it is passing in slow motion?V:That sounds weird. Do you think they hear us like this: t…a…l…k…i…n…g s…l…o…w…l…y…?L: Don't be silly, Vincent !What I meant was that small animals such as insects and small birds can observe more detail in a certain period of time, for example, a second，than larger animals.V: But how does this help them, exactly? It sounds like the day would really drag if every second got stretched out like that!L: Well, it helps them by giving them time to escape larger predators.Now, small animals can typically process more visual information than we can. But in a dangerous situation our brains can work in overdrive to process information more quickly .And overdrive means a state of extreme activity.V: Yeah, a very obvious example is that when we're taking an exam, we are in a more efficient state than ordinary times.L: Ha Ha, Of course, that's because our brain is pushed to be more productive for getting a satisfied mark. 插曲 2 Heroine V: And there is another situation in which the brain can work in overdrive, that is when we are facing an dangerous situation.L:Have you ever been in a dangerous situation where your brain went into overdrive, Vincent?V:Yes, I was ten years old and I fell backwards out of a big tree in our garden.L:Oh no! That's terrible. I'm sorry to hear that.V:Yeah. I have a vivid memory of the sun flashing above me, and the clouds moving across the sky, and the leaves rustling in the tree above me, my mum was screaming through the kitchen window as she saw me fall .I experienced so much in the space of just a few seconds.L:Yes. A vivid memory, by the way, is clear and detailed. Oh, poor Vincent! Did you hurt yourself?V:Some big bruises, but no broken bones. No serious.L:Glad to hear it. Now, it's a strange trick of memory that in a scary situation your brain starts to record everything in great detail. And the more memory you have of an event, the longer you believe it took. This idea explains why children often feel that time is passing slowly – because their experiences are new, and they are creating lots of new memories.V:However, boring adults are following routines that don't require new memories because they're so familiar. I:But let's listen to Claudia Hammond, author of Time Warped, talking about how we can stretch time and make our days feel longer – in a good way! He says If we can spend our weekend filling it with lots of new different activities, it'll go fast, at the time, because we're having fun. But when we look back, say, on Sunday night, and we've got to go to work next day, it will feel as if our weekend was long, because we filled it with new memories. 插曲3 Broken over youV:We should do that, this weekend, Icey. What do you think?I:Definitely. I'm going to buzz around like a fly, creating lots of new memories.V:Flies have eyes that send updates to the brain at much higher frequencies than our eyes, because they can process the information more quickly. This speed illustrates the impressive capabilities of even the smallest animal brains.I:Right, animals are great Maybe we can't do like flies. But we can arrange our spare time properly. Time had past as soon as we joined more activities.V:Of course, We should take part in more activities, read more books and do something that is good for us.I:Arrange our new term, we also can gain full of new memories.V:The new term is coming . I'm busy preparing the examination for MS office this month these days, and in my new term, I'll try my best improving my English level, especially my oral English. 插曲 4 Broken over you L:What's your plans, my audience? Have you decided what will you do? What's your new target?Remember never let your laziness drive your precious time!V:As the show has proceeded here. It's time to say goodbye to you all. Thank you for your listening. See you next time, bye. 感谢制作苏鑫、王子丞。 结束曲 Broken over you节目监制：周宸聿 编辑： 杨晏直 刘芳宇播音： 陶麓伊 杨晏直 刘芳宇制作：苏鑫

TOTALLY the first episode of my podcast that was DEFINITELY released in 2012 and I DEFINITELY wasn't able to release it on that year. It is DEFINITELY NOT 2021 RIGHT NOW! Hahahahahahaha. Okay fine! It is! --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/acnyc/message