Podcasts about andy you

HMO Market Predictions for 2025 - E - Energy I - Inflation E- Employment I - Interest Rates and R - Regulation For more information, guidance and support to help you invest in HMOs and create a profitable property portfolio, please head on over to my website www.hmosuccess.co.uk You'll find some free downloads to learn about HMOs as a high cashflowing strategy and how you can get started with very little money.  If you want to learn more about my amazing tips which I compiled in my book '101 Essential Tips for Running a Professional HMO' you can get your own copy FREE (Just pay postage and packing) www.101essentialtips.co.uk/  For a FREE 30 minute call for any help you might need with HMOs, and to understand what I can offer you to help you progress your portfolio, please book a call here: https://calendly.com/wendy-w-large I look forward to hearing from you! Wendy ---------------------------------------- Daniel Hill's 2025 predictions podcast  https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/270-2025-property-market-predictions/id1498618503?i=1000682987558 Adam Lawrence - Partners in Property February Supplement - https://partners-property.com/supplement-2-feb-25-the-new-dawn/ ---------------------------------------------- Transcription: Hello and welcome to the first episode of the HMO success podcast for 2025. I've had a little bit of a break over Christmas and New Year and decided that it was time for me to take a few weeks off recording a podcast. I wanted to review things that were filtering through the pipeline, like the renter's rights bill. I also wanted to take stock of other people's views and opinions about the outlook for 2025 and consider what some of those impacts are going to be for this year. So while many people might have released their predictions and property thoughts for 2025 on the 1st of January, I'm a month late. I hope that you will find that this podcast will give you some thoughtful reflection on what has been an interesting January. First of all, I'd like to say a massive thank you to those of you who listen to this podcast and write to me when I haven't done an episode and say "Wendy, when's the next episode coming out?" Thank you ever so much. You keep me accountable, keep me on my toes. And I hope that this podcast helps you as you invest in HMOs. I'd also like to thank everybody who participates in the community and who's investing in HMOs and gives me lots of food for thought, content, ideas, and subjects to tackle. I'm looking forward to 2025. I think it's going to be a very interesting year. What I mean by that is it's going to be one where we're going to have to use our intelligence to navigate the market. Today's podcast is very much about using our intelligence, crunching some of the numbers and thinking more deeply about some of the statistics you might have already heard since the first of January. There are a couple of people I want to give a quick shout out to who produce excellent material and whose views and opinions I value highly. One of them is Daniel Hill. He has the entrepreneurs podcast. He is very much about looking at business and growing your property portfolio as a business. I listen to a podcast of his a while ago and I thought it was excellent and I would agree with a lot of his conclusions. I'll put the link in the notes so you can jump over and listen to his podcast if you wish to. The other person I'd like to mention is Adam Lawrence from Partners in Property. His property predictions or update on the market - he does a monthly newsletter for Partners in Property. That was released today and I've been mulling over some of those statistics that he's released. Again, I'll put the link in the show notes so you can go over to that and read his notes on the general wider housing market. Today, I want to focus on my chosen topic, which is HMOs and predictions for 2025. I'm really delighted that today you have the honor of listening, not just to me, but also to my husband, my partner in crime, Andy Large. The reason I've invited him on is because Andy's got a really deep knowledge and interest in macroeconomics. At home we have plenty of discussions about this topic. As we're running an HMO business and a property business, we're always very interested in looking at how these links work back and forth because housing is a massive part of our national economy. It's a huge part of our international economy and understanding the macro picture is very important when you're trying to make decisions about the micro picture, which is how you use your money to invest and make it grow, and hopefully also provide good quality accommodation for individuals. Discussion Topics: EIER Framework Energy Wendy: Let's start with energy. What are your thoughts about what's happening in the energy world and market? And how's that going to affect us in HMOs? Andy: It could affect folk differently because we have to recognize that there are different models for HMOs. Not every HMO is an energy inclusive model. Some have tenants that actually pay their own bills with individual room billing, particularly for electric sometimes for gas, mostly for electric. I think most professional HMOs at least are an all-inclusive model. Would you say that's right? Wendy: Definitely. I think that particularly for the professional market, which is where we specialize, we offer that all-inclusive rent because I think it's really valuable for the tenant. There are so many benefits to it for the tenant. It's much easier for them just to move in and have one all-inclusive fee that they pay. It's rent, utilities, council tax, water, etc. It all goes into one part and makes it much easier for them to move in and move out and be more flexible. As well as the actual energy costs of running an HMO, the other things on the horizon which I think are part of this wider industry that affect HMOs are regulation when it comes to energy - the EPC regulation, but also the wider costs of energy and the costs of moving to net zero. This is becoming much more prevalent. We are no longer just simply accepting that we should be moving to net zero as a fait accompli, but there are voices which are now counterindicating that. As we've heard from President Trump across the pond, he stated that he is not going to support net zero and he's withdrawn the United States from the Paris climate accord and he's going to "drill baby drill." What does this wider energy industry direction of travel mean for us in HMOs? Andy: My view on net zero is that it's a totally suicidal mission. Even if we achieve net zero, what would it do? When asked that question, the reply is "Well, we'll be showing the world how to do net zero." And my view is they'll be laughing at us, particularly in China as they've made billions probably trillions out of manufacturing solar panels and we'll have no energy independence. The pertinent point for HMOs and rental properties is the EPC piece. That's where the rubber hits the road. My personal view is that this is going to be very hard now for Labor to inflict on the population of the UK. The idea was that by 2030, every rental property needs to achieve EPC C, which is unachievable anyway. There are millions of properties, at least hundreds of thousands that would never be able to meet that energy requirement because of the method of construction, their proximity to other properties, etc. I think it's an even bigger political problem for Labor now because of the appalling performance in the opinion polls and the rise of Reform who are strongly opposed to net zero. Even if Labor were to introduce a bill or ministerial instrument that said you've got to achieve that target by 2030, that requires consensus across the House of Commons, because there will be another election before 2030. They are doing a consultation about it at the moment as a live consultation. That's often what you do about what you're about to go wobbly on ideas. There's no certainty. There might very well be a law that comes in that says you have to do EPC C, and then a landlord is going to have to make a decision - are they going to do it? This is one of the dangers of any of these types of legislation. It's like the car industry having to prepare for getting rid of all ICE vehicles, only to be told, "Oh, actually, you can make some ICE vehicles." It's like a big liner crossing the ocean - it's not very easy to change direction of travel halfway through a strategic plan. Inflation Wendy: Linked to energy, of course, is inflation, and this is clearly a topic which is very important when you're investing in property, partly because we talk about real assets hedging against inflation, hedging against effectively the decrease in the value of your pound. What is going on with inflation right now? The headline statistics are that as of the end of 2024, it was 2.5% annualized, which doesn't sound too bad. But what do you feel is going on with inflation? Andy: You mean CPI inflation, which if you listen to the government inflation figure, that's really like asking a child to mark their own homework. I don't really believe that number. I think it is quite a bit higher than that because it doesn't include housing costs, which is a massive part of most people's monthly budget. Even then, there are things in the mix that make your head spin. I was listening to shows about housing costs priced in gold, which is the only Tier one reserve asset that has no counterpart. And priced against gold, all these things have indeed been in deflation. Housing prices are in a deflationary cycle right now. This is one of the problems with the fiat currency we have. It is very hard to make really solid predictions when fiat is such a fungible thing. But I think CPI is about to possibly go negative. I think rent levels are probably going to ease off for a variety of reasons, mostly to do with employment and the recession. Wendy: I'd like to challenge you on that one. Inflation is a compounding problem. We're talking about two percent or two and half percent in 2024 on top of four and a half percent in 2023 on top of seven percent in 2022. It doesn't include house prices, which is why when you're doing a refurb these days, you can add another 30% on the cost on what you were doing three or four years ago because it's all that compounded inflationary effect on goods services, materials, etc. I would argue that there is a possibility that although CPI inflation remains relatively low and the Bank of England have got a target to keep it at two percent, the wider inflationary picture - I believe there is a possibility that we're going to actually see effects of inflation coming through much more strongly and that could affect interest rates. Many people are suggesting the interest rates are going to start to come down this year. It would be great if they did, but I wonder actually whether interest rates could actually go up. Employment Wendy: What's going on with employment and unemployment? Andy: I think it's quite simple. Rachel Reeves has created rather a hostile environment for employing lots of people and we're going to wait and see how heavily that weighs on our economy. The chances are it could be quite bad. Wendy: I personally feel having spoken to a lot of people in the last couple of weeks about rooms and whether they're renting out and how long they're taking to rent out, there is a little bit of flat lining. The pace of filling rooms is not what it was a couple of months ago, although sometimes that is the time of the year. We have a slow month sometimes. People are still getting over Christmas. They're paying off their credit card bill. They haven't got any money to move. The 23rd of January is apparently the day when most people apply for new jobs. It's a commonly known date. So I think by the time we get to February March time, things will pick up again. People are more available for viewing and you've got more hours of daylight to do the viewings. Regulation One of the areas of HMO that we've seen grow a lot over the last few years is social care, social housing HMO. Whether it's an HMO that you set up and you lease to a care provider or maybe a charity, those people may be vulnerable. They may be long-term unemployed. There may be other reasons why they're being housed by the third party provider. What's very interesting to me, linked to social housing and the growth of social housing is debt at local government level. As of 2023, local government debt nationally was about nine billion pounds. This means that's about one thousand four hundred pounds per person in every local government area has debt to that level. That's the equivalent of many people's annual council tax bill. The big regulation coming forth this year is called the RRB - the Renter's Rights Bill. That is rapidly making its way through the Houses of Parliament. It's being read currently in the Lords and we're awaiting some amendments. The HMO action group wrote to about 25 members of the House of Lords to try and influence them in their thinking about particular amendments to that bill. Students are very badly treated by the Renters Rights Bill and I feel sympathetic towards those landlords that have offered really good quality student lettings for a number of years and now suddenly find that they cannot offer that fixed term tenancy of nine months or 12 months at the beginning. I think there's going to be ways around it. We don't do student HMO, so I'm not an expert in this field, but I know other people who are doing student HMOs and they've thought about it. I think again there's going to be creative solutions around it. On that note, I'm going to call our discussion to an end. We've covered some of our thoughts and predictions about 2025. Some of these are certainties, some of these are possibilities, but whatever happens, we want to wish you a prosperous and happy 2025. Please note that none of this is intended as financial advice. It's simply our musings on what's going on in the wider world of macroeconomics and housing statistics. Keep providing good quality HMOs for your tenants because long-term people need somewhere to live. Everyone needs a home. Look forward to speaking to you soon.

Andy is president of Gellert Global Group. The company imports more than 5,500 unique food items from more than 60 countries and is one of the largest food importers in the world. Gellert Global Group is home to 12 companies, led by Atalanta, the largest privately-held food importer in the U.S.Gellert Global is a third-generation family-run business. The Gellert Global Group comprises many of the leading North American food-importing companies and has been importing food products for over 100 years. The combined revenues of the Group exceed $1.7 billion.The Gellert Global family includes Andy's sister, brother and cousin. Andy's father and uncle are also part of the company. Andy's father, George, was recently inducted into the New Jersey business hall of fame. Gellert Global's goal is to be a part of every food and beverage experience. Andy and his team use a variety of factors to determine which products and brands to partner with, including trends and the needs of customers. QUOTES “Some of these family businesses and you hear about fighting and people not getting along. I think we're successful because we keep growing and there's enough things for everyone to do and for everyone to bring value.” (Andy) “You want (joining the family business) to happen organically. It's a fun business. There's opportunities for (family) to join if they want. There's no obligation to come in. We'd like them to come in, but we don't want to make a rule that they have to come in.” (Andy) “Network is important to my father. I learned that from him early on. Being a part of YPO (Young President's Organization), I love leveraging my network. I like investing in early-stage CPG's and helping and leading them to other opportunities.” (Andy) “We don't want to lose direction. We're very big and we're happy where we are but we're not in a rush to get to two billion. We're going to get there smart. If it means pairing down and doing SKU rationalization to be more profitable, all the better.” (Andy) “It's really all about efficiency. As you get bigger you can be more efficient, but you have to be diligent.” (Andy) “We're an importer of products so our products are expensive already. We're always looking for ways to (save). You always have to turn over rocks to look for more opportunities.” (Andy) “I love eating. I love food experiences. I love being surprised. I like going to a chef and saying ‘Just surprise me. Just give me what you do best.'” (Andy)  TRANSCRIPT 00:00.45Andy GellertBye. 00:01.87vigorbrandingHey there, welcome to Fork Tales. I’m ah Michael Pavone, and I’m happy to really get a chance to talk to a good friend of mine. ah Today we have Andy Gellert here. He’s a good friend I’ve known for and respected for a long, long time. Andy’s the president of Gellert Global Group, one of the largest food importers in the world. ah They import more than 2,500 product lines from more than 60 countries. Andy, thank you so much for being here. 00:27.05Andy GellertMike, always a pleasure, always great seeing you, and nice seeing your smiling face, and I love hanging out with you. We’re always having a lot of fun together. 00:34.39vigorbrandingYeah, absolutely. You know, if they if they have music for this in the beginning, you know, I was going to, I was going to change up our, our forktails music and have a little. 00:41.11Andy GellertListen, I don’t like to brag about my my my my my my my my my beautiful voice. where You saw me on stage with Welcome Pepper a long time ago. I hung that up a long time ago. 00:52.98Andy GellertI got straight into the food business, Mike. I can’t cant just think my life away, you know? 00:54.81vigorbrandingYeah. The little salt and pepper in the beginning of this thing i gets us off on everything and everything. The thing is, Andy, I have known you for a long time, but I love doing these interviews because I always learn more. so it’s like I might have seen you over the years at these shows and get to hang out and you know have a drink together, but you know when you’re digging a little deeper about the family business and about the food industry and and all of that, it’s just I’m always blown away. and your Your company and your family, which is the company, is absolutely amazing. 01:21.57vigorbrandingSo tell us a little bit about Gellert Global Group and know what they do. 01:24.57Andy Gellertbut i mean like Next year we’ll celebrate our 80th birthday and we’re very excited. and As I said, you know I’m third generation and I live i live food. It’s a passion of mine. I love all aspects of the food industry. and you know like My grandfather started this in 1945. 01:46.38Andy Gellertimporting meats from Eastern Europe and seafood. We’ve grown and got other lines of businesses in. We’re selling food service, retail, manufacturing, cruise line. 01:57.56Andy GellertWe’re now involved in, you know thanks to YPO, I’m i’m involved in the franchise business. By the end of the year, we’ll have 55 guys. Thanks to our good friend Dan Rowe. 02:05.09vigorbrandingWow. Yeah. 02:07.17Andy GellertWe’re introducing their first one. And you know we invest in food businesses and it’s just, ah We’re all about food. I tell everyone I hit my belly, it’s this is R and&D. 02:17.29Andy GellertThis is R and&D. I mean, 02:20.68vigorbrandingThat’s fantastic. Now, you know, I know family owned, super important. I know you treat everyone like family because I’ve seen you around ah customers, employees, the whole thing, but your dad, he is an older gentleman, but still very much involved in the business. Is that correct? 02:35.09Andy Gellert86. I went to his house to play tennis at 6 o’clock in the morning today. We play with people from our company. He loves it like he’s, my mom goes away for the summer. 02:45.63Andy GellertHe’s having, ah lot this summer is incredible. He’s 86. Every, twice a week, he has people from the company come over and have dinner and just different groups of people. 02:52.74vigorbrandingThat’s awesome. 02:53.86Andy GellertAnd and he loves what he does. It’s it’s it’s really it’s really an honor to to to work with him and and watch him. he loves He loves his suppliers. 03:04.49Andy GellertWe love our bankers. We love our employees. It’s all about, you know, yeah he’s all, he’s all about people. And it’s really great. 03:11.81vigorbrandingYeah. 03:12.97Andy GellertI said this summer at the fancy food show, he was honored with a lifetime achievement award. And it’s such a good honor to see him up there and enjoying all the success of the role we’ve done together. 03:22.47vigorbrandingWell, it’s so well deserved. He deserved that honor. The company’s amazing. But you should give him a break. I mean, I think you you put sneakers on him. 03:28.24Andy GellertHe loves, 03:28.57vigorbrandingi had He had sneakers on in the booth to run around. I mean, you know. 03:32.00Andy Gellertyou know, listen, like I said, he works out before we play tennis in the morning and He’s all about the next activity and what we’re doing next. So, you know. 03:39.84vigorbrandingThat’s it’s fantastic. how many So how many members of the family are currently working in the company? 03:45.07Andy GellertSo today we have my sister, my brother, and my cousin in my generation. And my cousin who, my other cousin who runs the Five Guide business. And then I have my father and my uncle. 03:56.25Andy GellertSo there’s, you know, three, six of us, you know. 03:58.55vigorbrandingthat’s great 03:59.47Andy GellertAnd we’re getting ready for the third generation. 03:59.41vigorbrandingand look 04:01.81Andy GellertHopefully, you know, there are nine kids in the next generation. Hopefully one of them or two of them will come in and we’re we’re excited. It’s all about, you know, we love what we do and there’s a lot to do. 04:12.31Andy GellertAnd, you know, some of these family businesses, you know, the family, you hear about them and they’re fighting and they’re not getting a along. 04:18.50vigorbrandingThat’s 04:19.38Andy GellertI think we’re being successful because we keep growing and there’s enough things that everyone can do and everyone brings value that no one’s stepping each other’s toes. 04:25.06vigorbrandinggreat. 04:27.57Andy GellertWe’re all different, we but we appreciate each other’s opinion and listening to each other. We argue, but, you know, we all, we we get her off our chest and we move forward. You know? 04:36.10vigorbrandingWould you go out and play tennis, right, and solve it over the own tennis court? 04:37.88Andy GellertExactly. We stopped it on the court. We stopped it on the court. 04:40.98vigorbrandingSo you the kids, are are they are they interested? are they old not I don’t know how old they are. Are they old enough to be getting close? 04:47.10Andy GellertSo I think um my daughter my daughter is a social worker therapist. I don’t think she’s going to come in, you know. But my, you know, my other two ah potentially will come in. 04:57.29Andy Gellertone One probably more likely than the other. 04:57.44vigorbrandingMm-hmm. 04:59.68Andy GellertOther is in the real estate industry. And then my sister’s kids potentially were there and my brother’s kids were a little bit younger. So I definitely think at least three or four will come in for the next generation. But in the meantime, we keep growing and getting bigger and and looking at opportunities and we have fun. Why why are we doing it? 05:17.12vigorbrandingThat’s awesome. Well, so in in your situation, I mean, we’re we’re of a generation, you and I, I’ll say that, like, did you, did you have a choice or did you always know that this is what I’m going to do or I want to do it? Or did you, did dad put a little pressure on you and say, Hey, look, you know, you got to do your thing. 05:32.22Andy GellertI did everything wrong in the family business. youre They all that go out and get the outside experience. And I came right in. 05:38.08vigorbrandingyeahh Yeah. 05:38.43Andy GellertAnd it was difficult. I’m not going to say it was a piece of cake. And my brother was a lot. 05:41.30vigorbrandingYeah. 05:44.06Andy Gellertyou know He went to business school. He went to law school. He worked in private banking. And then he came in. So it it made a lot of sense. And my sister, the same thing. yeah I did everything wrong but it’s good to know, it’s good to do it because then you know you’re not going to repeat it. 05:57.78Andy GellertSo you know my son who who definitely looks forward to maybe joining one day says he want he wants to spend three or four years you know the outside and coming in. 05:58.16vigorbrandingYeah. 06:05.42vigorbrandingyeah 06:08.26Andy GellertHe says he doesn’t like his boss I’m like that’s good get used to it. you Get used to it better than me you know. 06:12.52vigorbrandingGet used to it, right? 06:17.21vigorbrandingWell, you know, that’s I had the same rule with my girls. I mean, I don’t know that they’ll ever want to come into it. Why would anyone would go to an advertising agency or come into a marketing firm? But if they would, I said they had to work somewhere for two years and get one promotion. 06:28.93vigorbrandingAnd thankfully, they’ve both been doing that. 06:29.31Andy GellertYeah. 06:31.08vigorbrandingIn fact, they’ve been doing it for a while now, so maybe they’re not interested. So ah they may have dodged the bullet or maybe I have. But I just think our generation was one of those things where, you know, yeah, go do what you want to do, but you’re coming into the company kind of thing, you know. 06:43.02vigorbrandingI started my own business, I didn’t go to my dad’s company but I mean it was one of those things where I just think a lot of folks, it was just I guess different. ah Now I think with, I’ll say with my daughters and probably your kids like go out and do your thing and if you’re interested talk to me, don’t you know, don’t don’t not talk to me about it but you know, no pressure, that kind of thing. 07:00.05vigorbrandingYou know, it’s just a little different. 07:01.20Andy GellertYeah you want it to happen organically and you know listen he he comes around a lot of the meals and the family all gets together and a lot of time is talking about work so he’s interested and you know he spends weekends he came to the fancy food show they all came I can see what’s going on and it’s it’s a fun business so I think there’s opportunities for them in the future if they want but there’s no pressure we’re growing we we have a lot of we’ve done a great job of hiring a lot of outside ah you know ah 07:03.16vigorbrandingYeah. 07:19.45vigorbrandingYeah. 07:30.22Andy Gellertah you know professionals to help us run the business and they don’t have to come. re We’re doing well and you know they’re all going to enjoy the from the fruitfuls of the business as as it as it gets bigger but there’s no obligation for them to come in. We like them to come in but we don’t want to make a rule if they have to come in. 07:48.07vigorbrandingYeah, but on that note, and we’ll jump in more about the business, but on the family side, you mentioned earlier that we’re both in YPO. And we both know that a lot of YPO businesses are family owned businesses. And there’s there are challenges, right, with being family owned and led. I mean, you know, what, you know, can you talk a little bit about that? 08:05.93Andy GellertListen, it’s hard, but thank God for YPO. To me, it’s one of the best opportunities of my life. I really enjoyed all the people like yourself and getting involved in the Food Network and my New Jersey Forum. 08:23.49Andy GellertThese guys are my board of directors and my own personal board of directors. 08:26.70vigorbrandingyou 08:28.15Andy GellertThey really helped me grow. where you know where I was i was being stubborn, they told me to relax, where I was not being aggressive enough, they pushed me. And it’s just been a great environment for me to to prosper as a leader because of YPL. 08:43.66vigorbrandingThat’s great. When I know your food and beverage form or that group and boy, you know, I can’t believe you learned anything from them. So ah you guys have a group of, you guys have ah ah a group of, uh, of, uh, cherished individuals, yeah characters. 08:49.65Andy GellertThank you. 08:56.99Andy GellertWe’ve got a great group and we’ve been together for over, you know, some of us back almost 16, 18 years and it’s great. 08:58.20vigorbrandingYes, you do. 09:03.87Andy GellertI love seeing the guys and we don we try not to miss meetings and and we’re supportive of each other. 09:06.99vigorbrandingYeah, it’s cool. Yeah, I’ve had a couple of them one here, so it’s ah it’s been great. They’re they’re they’re like the characters, that’s for sure. So yeah and you mentioned your father got an award at Fancy Food. I was there at Fancy Food this year, and what it’s a great honor. He’s also a member of the New Jersey Business Hall of Fame. 09:24.61Andy GellertYeah, please listen, though we it’s not easy. I think we’re the 11th largest privately held business in New Jersey. We’re very proud of that. and we you know it’s We work hard and he deserves to be honored for what what what he’s accomplished. 09:39.11vigorbrandingYeah. i mean so As I was saying earlier, you know I get to meet folks and we get to see you know different folks at different shows. and i had i i mean I knew you ran a great, important company. I had no idea the size and scale. so you know on Your vision is to be a part of every food experience. and you know Well, I will say that sounds like a really you know audacious goal, right? But with your company, you kind of are. i mean you have you have you have You have a franchise, you have you import your frozen food, you have CPG, you have a private, I mean, it’s it’s incredible. 10:13.44vigorbrandingCan you talk a little bit about the breadth and the different companies within your organization? 10:15.87Andy GellertI mean, it’s exciting and I think we’ve grown over the years through acquisitions. I think the last 18 months we made three acquisitions. We’re probably closing on one the next month and have two on the table that we’re looking at. So growth is, you know, we’re always looking at mergers and acquisitions. And we like to say, listen, private equity, if you’re a family business, you want to stay apart, you know, how enjoy the ride, take some money off the table and join our family instead of private equity where they 10:44.81vigorbrandingYeah. 10:45.10Andy Gellertchange your business up and listen if you want to cash out you can always cash out but if you want to enjoy the ride a little bit longer and take some money off the table we’ve been very successful about people wanting to join a family business and ours is that we’re like a large very large family business so we get to a lot of opportunities to look at business deals. 11:05.69vigorbrandingYeah, and you know, ah your your ah passion for the business and your your love of people, it sort of precedes you. Like I’ve always seen that about you, your energy and i it’s not, it’s not, it’s not artificial. 11:18.40vigorbrandingYou do that. I’ve seen it. I’ve seen you at the booth when I’m standing walking the shows and stuff. And it’s, ah it’s really kind of ah really cool. And I’m sure that’s a compliment to your father and and I’m sure your whole family’s like that. But you do treat everybody like family. 11:29.62vigorbrandingAnd I think that’s ah admirable. 11:30.12Andy Gellertbut You know, network is always um is important to my father. I learned that from him early on. And being part of YPO, I love leveraging my network and not for myself, but helping people. 11:39.05vigorbrandingYeah. Yeah. 11:41.20Andy GellertI like investing in early stage CPGs and helping these young people and watching their passion and, you know, leading them to other opportunities. I love putting two people together and let let them prosper. 11:53.58Andy GellertIt’s it’s really a ah pleasure of mine, you know, watching that happen. 11:58.17vigorbrandingYeah, well, and that’s, that leads to success, right? 12:00.84Andy GellertIt’s really pure joy. 12:00.82vigorbrandingYou know, you help people out. 12:01.68Andy Gellertat You’re 100%. 12:01.74vigorbrandingYeah, absolutely. So, and I will say, ah you know, I’ve been informed with you and you were a treasure and valuables all get out. And the amount of people you know, and and the connections you have are second to none. 12:14.02Andy GellertWell, 12:14.00vigorbrandingAnd you know, 12:14.46Andy Gellertwe do have a good friend in LA who like to compare. 12:16.32vigorbrandingokay 12:17.18Andy GellertMy good friend, our good friend Clara, who probably knows one more than I do. 12:20.44vigorbrandingyeah hey 12:22.30Andy Gellertjob 12:23.31vigorbrandingheard I would always keep score when we’d be talking, like who knew who or who knew the other person better or whatever else, but I will say, yeah I’m excited for you to be on here because I know my podcast now will be, I’ll rival the the football games, you know the upcoming football games for for for viewership because because of you. 12:34.55Andy GellertYeah. 12:38.34vigorbrandingSo I just, I appreciate that. So, but but back when companies, though you have frozen, you have CPG. can you Can you talk a little bit about the different types of of ah products? 12:46.45Andy GellertYeah, so we’re in the frozen fruits, frozen vegetables. You know, we just actually, a few years ago, we invested in a company called Cafe Spice. I made him join YPO and they make ethnic meals. um I just, you know, we did ah the Bloomberg of Food, the Food Institute, 13:04.37Andy GellertWe made a minority investment in there. 13:04.43vigorbrandingYep. 13:06.90Andy Gellertwere you know We do a lot of different retail, private label, manufacturing. We’re just trying to leverage all the everything on a plate. look at you know we’re We’re looking at an olive business, a rice business. There’s so many opportunities out there. We just want to add on to our great team here. We’ve got great people. 13:27.64Andy Gellertah We have great sales people, great buyers, and you know, finance. And we just, we can do some more. So we’re looking for more opportunities. 13:33.69vigorbrandingMm hmm. That’s great. Do you need an ad agency? I’m just kidding. 13:37.95Andy GellertWe’ve said, a lot of us not our own brand. We do have some brands that we, that are ours. 13:43.18vigorbrandingYeah. 13:43.84Andy GellertAnd we bought, we bought two brands from, from UNFI, Mountain Vicos that was owned by UNFI and Sonoma Cheese. 13:48.53vigorbrandingMm hmm. 13:52.16Andy GellertSo we do, we do work on our brand. So we, you know, we and um we have a marketing department. 13:54.60vigorbrandingThat’s awesome. 13:56.46Andy GellertWe got a, get you more engaged, Micah. 13:58.46vigorbrandingThere you go. 13:58.78Andy GellertI’ll get to that. 13:59.35vigorbrandingHey, I’m always here for that. That’s awesome. 14:01.26Andy GellertFor even your Philly cheesesteak, we’ll have a meeting, you know, that’s all I need. 14:03.59vigorbrandingYou got it. Hey, that’s done. No no no problem there. So when you’re when you’re building and you’re always looking for these new new products or companies, ah yeah what when you want to import them, what what factors are you looking at? 14:15.50vigorbrandinglike I mean, obviously you you go to need a lot of things, there but you’re in so many different places. What what is it that you’re you’re kind of like, what’s on your checklist at the top of the checklist? 14:23.65Andy GellertSo we want to look at something that makes sense. so if you know We love the the old math, one plus one equals four. So we want to find efficiencies. Maybe they’re doing the same thing we are, but they have a big they have a big finance team that we don’t really need going forward. 14:38.14Andy GellertOr maybe they’re in one segment of the business where we’re not in. 14:42.04vigorbrandingUh-huh. 14:42.16Andy GellertSo we try to really identify where we can do the math where one plus one equals four and five. 14:47.91vigorbrandingRight. 14:48.70Andy Gellertyou know we don’t want to doesn’t that A copycat doesn’t really help sometimes, but if they have a you know a big ah big staff on the some redundancy there, then it could make sense. 14:54.08vigorbrandingUh-huh. 14:58.10Andy GellertOtherwise, it could be a whole new field that we can add to our already you know deep bench of of products that we do. So we don’t have a playlist of what we’re looking for. We just look at different opportunities and see if they make sense. 15:11.27Andy Gellerti mean like Just like building a network, we love looking at decks and looking at opportunities or 15:16.32vigorbrandingMm hmm. 15:16.75Andy GellertWhy are companies for sale? Why aren’t they aren’t? And a lot of times, i likeck listen, this is going to go to private equity. We’re not going to need a bit because we know we’ll be blown out of the water. 15:25.59vigorbrandingright Yeah. Yeah. that makes That makes a lot of sense. So, I mean, obviously, and you know, I kind of had this philosophy as well in the business. It’s like, you’re opportunistic. You know, you’re not saying I’m looking for this exact thing. 15:36.91vigorbrandingIt has to be this big, that, you know, that that category doing that thing. It’s sort of like, Oh, here’s an opportunity. Hmm. This fits or no, it doesn’t fit. Or, Hey, this can enhance that. 15:43.96Andy GellertYeah. 15:44.95vigorbrandingAnd if we do this, maybe we can go here. And so I’ve always looked at that. It’s kind of fun to do it that way. I kind of always. 15:50.32Andy GellertIt’s not a good idea. You’re looking under the rug and see what’s there and putting that puzzle together because like I said, a big company that’s competitive in mind, it’s going to go for a lot more for private equity. 15:51.60vigorbrandingYeah. 15:54.65vigorbrandingYeah. 16:03.40Andy GellertI don’t even want to play in there. I don’t have private equity money where I could afford to strike out. 16:05.38vigorbrandingRight. 16:10.74Andy GellertI want to make sure these are successful acquisitions and they fit in them all. 16:15.96vigorbrandingYeah, and you make a really good point because we’ve seen, you know, I’ll say, and um I know you’ve seen for sure, but in my business with CPG and in the restaurant side, private equity will come in and they, I’m not gonna say they don’t care if they fail, but they they know it’s a numbers game. 16:31.27vigorbrandingThey know that all aren’t gonna pan out. So they make these investments and then they they do their, they they they they apply their playbook and then, you know, if it’s like baseball. if they They hit three out of, ah if they hit three out of 10, they feel like they’ve done something and and you probably have financially, but 16:40.88Andy Gellertyeah 16:44.73vigorbrandingThe other seven are just left to the wayside. 16:46.68Andy GellertExactly. And and they’ve, you know, they can afford to do that. We really don’t want to do that. 16:49.73vigorbrandingYeah. Yeah. 16:51.36Andy GellertAnd we don’t want to, we don’t want to lose direction. 16:51.34vigorbrandingNo. 16:53.42Andy GellertI mean, listen, and we like, you know, we’re very big and we’re happy wherever you are, but we’re not in a goal to rush to get to 2 billion. 17:00.89vigorbrandingRight. 17:01.14Andy GellertWouldn’t get there smart. And if it means paring down and skew rationalization to be more profitable, all the better. 17:06.88vigorbrandingMm hmm. Do you find yourself doing that a lot? Do you do you have to go in there and and do skew rationalization or? 17:12.64Andy Gellertall the time, all the time, we really, you know, skew rash, customer rationalization, and we’ll bundle a bunch of customers and give them to a bigger customer just to make sure our warehouse is more efficient. 17:13.21vigorbrandingYeah. 17:16.68vigorbrandingYeah. 17:21.11vigorbrandingYeah. 17:23.25Andy GellertIt’s really all about efficiency. I mean, as you get bigger, you could be more efficient. 17:24.87vigorbrandingYeah. 17:27.21Andy GellertAnd, but you have to be diligent and skew rationalization, customer rationalization, people rationalization, you know, rationalization as well. 17:32.84vigorbrandingYep. 17:35.97Andy GellertYou know, it’s important. 17:37.23vigorbrandingYeah. And that’s that’s such ah’ such an interesting point because I think, you know, and I’ll say i’ll say in my own experience, you know, i in our holding company, we have several different marketing companies and I’m always afraid to let customers go. 17:48.21vigorbrandingLike, oh, though no, that we can do it for them. Sometimes it’s not good business, right? And sometimes you have to make those tough decisions and, you know, it’s it’s hard to let employees go, but it’s it’s hard for you to let, or I’ll say for me, to let a piece of business go, a paying customer. 17:52.67Andy GellertYeah. 18:00.83Andy GellertYeah, ah it’s, you know, you don’t like the same thing. But, but you got to look at it like, you know, you still have another 300 other employees out there that you want to do for the better the of the group. 18:07.78vigorbrandingRight. 18:10.14vigorbrandingRight. 18:10.45Andy GellertSo it makes sense to let someone go or let a customer go in order to be more efficient for everyone else. 18:10.42vigorbrandingThat’s right. 18:17.54Andy GellertSo it’s hard. 18:17.83vigorbrandingyeah 18:19.55Andy GellertAnd initially, it’s hard. But over time, you realize It’s a better decision and to be you know to be more efficient and just try. 18:27.95vigorbrandingAbsolutely. So I mean, one of the things that, you you know, we have the two agencies, we have quench, we have, ah which is CPG food and beverage, we have a vart of Vigor, which is ah ah restaurant marketing. and you you You cover them all because you’re in franchise with five guys, you’re in, you know, in the CPG world. um You know, it’s it’s sort of like, it’s hard to keep track of everything. How do you manage it all? I mean, I know you have different folks, but you’re sitting up there, are you just pulling up a different P and&L for each of these business units every two days? or 18:56.16Andy GellertI mean, we’re on ah basically a lot of these Zoom calls and just listening in and we just had one a few minutes ago, you know, we do a lot of nut and dry fruit business and we’re working on getting bigger in the bakery in the in the supermarket. 19:09.09Andy GellertSo how could we be, you know, and and we sat down today and we talked about all of our items and they all fit in the bakery. bill We’re selling very little of the bakery. So it’s an untapped market and it gets everyone excited. 19:21.02Andy GellertAnd we sit down and f throw things at the wall and see what sticks. 19:24.19vigorbrandingThat’s great. 19:24.58Andy GellertAnd we’re kind of fun. like we just said hey You know, we do this item, this will be good for, and I just, I love sitting in these meetings and just, you know, throwing out ideas. 19:32.21vigorbrandingThat’s great. That’s great. Very cool. Well, I know at Quench, you know, the CPG side, we would do to learn, to understand the industry. You know, we started the agency in food and beverage. 19:43.65vigorbrandingIt’s like, you can’t just say you do advertising and marketing food and beverage. You have to have an expertise. We’re going to hire people from the CPG world. But then what we did was we created a food and beverage trench to learn what was going on. 19:54.01vigorbrandingRight. And the first year we’ve done them for 15 years. You know, you’ve probably seen me speak on them at different events. 20:00.02Andy GellertYeah, are you do a great job. I love hearing your updates on the YPO conferences and you really got a pulse of what’s going on in the industry. 20:07.49vigorbrandingYeah. would So we we would do that. just We did it actually just for our own edification, just to learn. And then when we did it, we said, well, let’s let’s just give these away. So we do them every year. We give them away, fast companies written about them and all that. Do you use trends ah for your business to for like that next big thing? 20:21.92vigorbrandingOr is it more of truly just looking at the pieces and moving things around on the board? 20:26.18Andy GellertWe look at trends, we look at pieces, you know, we lot of our a lot of our suppli customers say, we like this item, can you go out and find it for us? And we got people or, you know, and in some cases we do a lot of business, some of our our customers say, here’s an item, you know here’s the supplier, you know, you’re you’re a great importer, we want you to import it for us. So it just, because we’re a trusted supplier, we’re good at logistics, they actually given us business to to handle. 20:53.89Andy GellertAnd it’s it’s exciting. And then we take that business and look at other opportunities as well. 20:59.70vigorbrandingHow is there anything are you doing anything in the beverage side is it mostly all just food? 21:01.22Andy Gellerte 21:04.27Andy GellertNo, I mean, we the beverage side we have, so we, Cipriani, you know, the so we we handle all their CPG items. 21:09.46vigorbrandingMm-hmm Okay Mm-hmm 21:13.80Andy GellertSo they make a the bulini mix, non-alcoholic bulini. So we’re slowly getting it. That’s our beverage and, you know, we’ll see where that takes us. but That’s new space for us. 21:24.96Andy GellertAnd we’re doing it on the retail side. Now we’re looking to try to listen to all the beverage distributors we don’t really touch on. So we’re getting a ah handle on that business as well. 21:31.95vigorbrandingMm-hmm. Yeah. 21:34.96Andy GellertSo that’s the only part of beverage. know I’m an investor in a few CPG, like Ollie Pop and Lemon Perfect, a few others. 21:40.57vigorbrandingMm-hmm. 21:43.06Andy GellertBut but not I think that’s a tough space. But I think we’re we’re getting our feet wet with this Trippiani land. 21:48.39vigorbrandingSee, that’s interesting. 21:48.67Andy GellertWe’re very excited. 21:50.05vigorbrandingYou’re 11 perfect. We just took over their space in Atlanta. They’re headquartered in Atlanta, yeah. 21:53.76Andy GellertOh, 21:54.76vigorbrandingAnd we just took over their space. They went ah they went all virtual, so yeah. 21:58.07Andy Gellertyeah. Yani went to Cornell with me. 22:00.32vigorbrandingYeah. Oh, is that right? 22:00.83Andy GellertYeah, yeah he’s a you should get him on your podcast. 22:03.45vigorbrandingWell, I’ve met him, he’s a great guy. 22:05.26Andy GellertI he’s Mr. Energy. It was his birthday this week. 22:06.69vigorbrandingOh my gosh. 22:07.72Andy GellertSo I just I love that guy. 22:08.28vigorbrandingIs that right? I will reach out to him. Yeah, i we you you can you can appreciate this, Andy, you know me pretty well. 22:11.20Andy GellertHe 22:15.37vigorbrandingSo i’m goingnna I was gonna sublease his his office, right? So you know it’s a real estate deal. I’m gonna sublease it, we’re gonna move from one ah ah one office to this other office. So I talked to him and he was like, he was going 180 miles an hour and it was great and all that. 22:29.28vigorbrandingAnd I was like, I really like this guy. And I’m like, 22:31.92Andy GellertHe’s an infectious personality. 22:32.86vigorbrandingYeah. 22:33.53Andy Gellertyou 22:33.75vigorbrandingAnd I’m like, you know, johnny i said hey if you want, I mean, I’ll, I’ll do the deal here with you, but if you want to stay, like, you know, I mean your energy and what you’re, you’re in the beverage, that’s what we do. 22:44.21vigorbrandingI mean, you can stay, you know, like if you have meetings here and like your, if your people come in, like it’s a big enough space for all of us, I’m not asking for anything on the other side. 22:46.07Andy GellertYeah. 22:51.86vigorbrandingah You can stay. I mean, I just i thought energy, you know, creates more energy. So, and we talked about that, but then he was like, you know, isn’t that crazy? 22:57.60Andy GellertThat’s so funny to know that guy. I met him at Expo West. And he had a small little table. 23:03.20vigorbrandingYep. 23:03.40Andy GellertAnd I’m like, wow, this guy’s this guy has a firecracker. 23:07.14vigorbrandingYeah. 23:07.31Andy GellertAnd I’m like, um’m I’m supporting you. 23:09.42vigorbrandingThat’s awesome. 23:09.51Andy GellertAnd it’s a great story. 23:11.92vigorbrandingThat’s very cool. That’s the end goes to show you know everybody that’s amazing to me amazing. That’s funny. 23:17.14Andy GellertTake that, Clara. 23:21.03vigorbrandingI’ll make sure we tell her that. 23:22.87Andy Gellertbut 23:22.95vigorbrandingSo, all right, now I’m gonna bring up something, I guess negative or whatever, but inflation. Inflation is, ah you know, is it affects every industry, especially food. 23:28.56Andy GellertIt’s tough. its you know 23:30.55vigorbrandingYeah. how How much of an impact has that had on you guys? 23:32.99Andy GellertThat’s a very important product. 23:33.03vigorbrandingand 23:34.29Andy GellertSo our product are expensive already. And so it’s tough. We have to find you know so you know find other opportunities. That’s why we invested in this cafe spice that makes meals. 23:44.93Andy GellertSo maybe we make things more efficient for more of our customers and look at other opportunities. Maybe so source something that’s coming from Europe, getting it from South America. And and we’re always looking for ways to skin. 23:59.19Andy GellertWe started importing French fries from Belgium. to the East Coast because it’s it’s more effective and looking at opportunities like that. and Now we’re looking at opportunities in India. You always have to turn over rocks, look for more opportunities. It’s scary. 24:14.30Andy Gellertand it’s it’s you know the It’s all the news, the the price inflation. So we’re always looking for newer opportunities to try to make things better for our customers. 24:25.43vigorbrandingAnd being a global you know accessing globally with conflict and things like that, I mean obviously that’s affecting everything. i mean are you having are you ah is there um Is there ever a chance where one area of the business is sort of shut down or hey we can’t get this from there? 24:40.46Andy GellertYeah, things happen all the time. I mean, you know, when the Ukraine war first started, you know, it was it was a big factor because happened old Europe was tough. 24:42.39vigorbrandingIt’s crazy. 24:51.28Andy GellertAnd then when there was a ah big problem of freight from the from from Asia, supply chain issues from COVID. I mean, we’ve we’ve seen them all, Mike. 25:00.35vigorbrandingcrazy 25:01.71Andy GellertAnd now ah there’s an impending dock strike that’s going to come. So that’s going to affect from Maine all the way to Texas. 25:07.59vigorbrandinghear about that? 25:09.05Andy Gellertand 25:09.51vigorbrandingYeah. 25:09.86Andy GellertThat’s really making us very nervous and our customers nervous. 25:11.55vigorbrandingOh yeah. 25:12.86Andy GellertSo, but we, you know, we do the best we can and we keep fighting every day, you know, get up, get up and play some tennis, you know. 25:13.80vigorbrandingWow. 25:18.34vigorbrandingYes, I was gonna say, you get played tennis and smile and have a positive attitude and that’s the secret sauce. 25:23.15Andy GellertYou just got to, you know. 25:25.04vigorbrandingYou know, and I do love because every time I’m talking, I think, I think you always say, yeah, I played tennis with my dad this morning and you know, family businesses, there’s so many family businesses that end up like not talking to each other and you hear all the the generational strife or the the falling apart. 25:37.72vigorbrandingThe fact that you you still hang with your dad, my dad was my best friend. So that’s just so near and dear to me. It’s incredible. I think that’s so awesome. 25:43.18Andy GellertWell, today is a little, today is a little flat with him. I showed up at his house at 10 to 6, pouring rain, and the the match was canceled. So I had to wake up for nothing, and I’m a little annoyed. 25:50.67vigorbrandingah Oh boy. 25:53.10Andy GellertBut that doesn’t matter at all. 25:55.76vigorbrandingI hope you don’t ever let him win. 25:57.56Andy GellertWell, i I’m his partner. He doesn’t move very well, and people, no one was allowed to drop shot him, you know? 25:59.16vigorbrandingOkay. 26:04.11Andy Gellertget Everyone starts booing, whoever dropped off him. 26:06.88vigorbrandingThat’s awesome. 26:07.02Andy GellertBut it was an accident. They’re like, no, you know? He’s got a bunch of rules, you know? 26:11.16vigorbrandingThat’s awesome. It’s his own tennis game, right? It’s his own. 26:13.99Andy Gellerttheel game is his ze tennis game 26:16.17vigorbrandingThat’s fantastic. So, if I if i may ask, and I know if there’s something you can’t say, that’s fine, but what’s what’s next for Gellert Global? I mean, what is anything new on the horizon, anything exciting you could talk about? 26:23.54Andy Gellerti We’re looking at more opportunities. you know we will be like We have such a great team. We have such great suppliers, such great employees, such great customers. We just want to keep doing what we’re doing and look for more opportunities. And if it makes sense to to make an acquisition, we’re going to do it. 26:40.44Andy Gellertand uh, it’s, it’s fun. You know, I mean, you know, just look at my cousin and the five guys, we were like 12, five guys. Now this year, by the end of the year, we’ll have a hundred. I mean, it’s just, uh, opportunistic and good people and growth to move forward. 26:50.43vigorbrandingThat’s awesome. 26:57.42vigorbrandingYeah. And, and Dan Rowe, as you mentioned, he’s a king of a guy and he, he was actually on the podcast and he, he’s, he’s fantastic. 27:00.10Andy GellertYeah. 27:03.17vigorbrandingSo that’s good company right there. 27:05.70Andy GellertYeah. Yeah. We were at a YPL event and he’s like, and we’ we’re looking My cousin at the time had a bunch of cinnabons and we’re looking for our second concept and we’re at a YPO in DC. 27:11.89vigorbrandingUh-huh. 27:15.43Andy GellertHe’s like, Andy, come try this concept. And I took a bite of the five guy burger. I’m like, this is like a, like the, when you taste a cinnabon for the first time, it’s wow factor. 27:23.93vigorbrandingRight. Yeah. 27:25.78Andy GellertI called my cousin and the next thing we know, we you know we’re down there signing the deal. So it was, it’s been a great journey. 27:30.70vigorbrandingThat’s awesome. Yeah. Fantastic. Very cool. All right. So now I asked this question. I have one last question, right? And this probably, well, I don’t know if it’ll be easy for you, but it’s not like you have to say, you can’t say five guys. 27:41.96vigorbrandingSo I have to fill it out there. So, but if you have one final meal, what would you eat and why, and I’m going to say this too. 27:48.70Andy GellertLike, that’s the hardest thing because I love. 27:48.90vigorbrandingAnd and and who with, I want to know who with. 27:52.53Andy GellertThat’s like the hardest question anyone can ever ask me. I love like, it’s like, we I think I told you was before we started out that you was open with my son and my wife and there’s so much food options. 28:00.19vigorbrandingYeah. 28:04.26Andy GellertI had a headache. I couldn’t find what to get. Would I get to the Korean bowl or the palette for the steak sandwich? or or the fancy chicken with truffles, the dumplings. 28:15.10Andy Gellertyou know i’m like I almost get a headache, I can’t even decide. 28:15.19vigorbrandingyeah 28:19.04Andy Gellertso back It’s impossible. I just i love eating, I love food experiences, I love being surprised. I like going to a chef and say, just surprise me. 28:29.38Andy Gellertonly even Just give me what you you you do best and let me try it. 28:29.31vigorbrandingYeah. 28:33.30Andy Gellertand and you know it’s really i can’t i There’s not one meal that I have to have. i 28:39.23vigorbrandingYeah. 28:40.25Andy GellertI love a good sandwich. I love a good burger. I got a good steak. I like Italian, French, Spanish food, everything. 28:45.72vigorbrandingYep. ah You know, it’s funny. i I’m the same way. I’m lucky. I can eat anything. Like I don’t get nothing. I don’t have any allergies. I don’t get sicker. But you know, if I have a go to at a certain thing at a certain place, i will I’ll have a go at my go to. 28:56.26vigorbrandingBut nine out of 10 times when I go to a restaurant, like whatever the chef wants to make, because I figured he’s gonna put his heart and soul on it. 28:56.44Andy Gellerte 29:00.90Andy GellertYeah. 29:02.21vigorbrandingRight. If it’s, if I’m asking him his opinion. 29:02.59Andy Gellertbut i agree yeah if if if If they put it on the menu and then they’re behind it, I would take their recognition and set something I really want. 29:05.89vigorbrandingYeah. 29:09.81Andy Gellertso My father, yeah. 29:10.21vigorbrandingRight. That’s right. That’s right. You nailed it. And I love the fact that you mentioned the U.S. Open and there was somebody there at the U.S. Open that had better seats than you, which was your. Of course, yeah. 29:21.87vigorbrandingAndy, you know, I love being with you. I love talking to you and I appreciate your time. ah Just thank you so much for being on Fork Tales. 29:28.25Andy Gellertah mike First of all, congratulations to you and the organization you built and you’ve always been You’re always smiling, too. i mean actually That’s why we like each other so much. 29:36.16vigorbrandingYeah. 29:36.89Andy GellertWe’re always smiling. Have a good time. And your trends are amazing. And I really enjoyed seeing you and doing this with yourself. 29:43.81vigorbrandingfantastic well thank you so much 29:45.78Andy GellertAll right? 29:46.39vigorbrandingtake care 29:46.78Andy GellertTake care. Bye. 29:47.78vigorbrandingright 30:07.41vigorbrandingFantastic. 30:11.01vigorbrandingWell, thank you so much. Take care. 

In today's episode of the IC-DISC show, I sit down with Andy Hein of Patent Veritas. Andy shares his impressive journey from chemical engineering and law firms to establishing his firm. He reveals how Patent Veritas helps businesses secure their intellectual property through strategic patent licensing. I learn how industries like restaurants and stock trading benefit from robust patent protection. Andy demystifies securing patent licenses through the secondary market, allowing businesses access to a vast portfolio. Tailored solutions are key to understanding clients' needs. For business owners, Andy discusses using patent licensing for long-term investment and coupling it with Private Placement Life Insurance. Andy offers valuable insights as we discuss real cases that illustrate high stakes, even in seemingly simple industries. We also touch on ethical considerations in competitive landscapes and ensure personalized services.     SHOW HIGHLIGHTS Andy Hein shares his background in chemical engineering and patent law, discussing his experience at Skadden Arps and Sidley Austin before founding Patent Veritas. We discuss the role of Patent Veritas in helping businesses secure their intellectual property through strategic patent licensing, particularly focusing on mitigating litigation risks from patent trolls. Andy explains how Patent Veritas acquires patents from the secondary market and licenses them to clients, allowing companies to preempt costly legal battles and enhance their IP portfolios. We delve into the benefits of understanding clients' revenue streams and technological processes to offer tailored patent protection solutions, applicable to various industries, including non-high-tech sectors like restaurant chains and stock trading operations. Andy elaborates on the concept of Private Placement Life Insurance (PPLI) for accredited investors, highlighting its dual benefits for business owners in protecting both their business and personal interests. We explore real-world cases, such as a litigation involving used car sales companies, to illustrate the high stakes of patent protection and the strategic moves companies can make to safeguard their operations. Andy discusses the ethical considerations and strategic advantages of having a robust patent portfolio to counteract competitor lawsuits, emphasizing the value of being proactive rather than reactive. We reflect on the rewarding aspects of offering personalized legal services and the importance of ensuring a good fit between clients and Patent Veritas' offerings, with a unique fee structure based on patent licenses rather than hourly rates. Andy provides insights into the competitive dynamics of the patent marketplace, explaining how companies can leverage patent licensing as a long-term investment to enhance their business value. We conclude with advice for entrepreneurs and business owners, stressing the importance of being hardworking, available, and respectful in building successful client relationships, and offering complimentary initial consultations to make the first step towards collaboration accessible.   Contact Details Email Andy (mailto:ahein@patentveritas.com) LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/andyhein1) LINKSShow Notes Be a Guest About IC-DISC Alliance About Patent Veritas GUEST Andy HeinAbout Andy TRANSCRIPT (AI transcript provided as supporting material and may contain errors) Dave: Hi, this is David Spray and welcome to another episode of the IC-DISC Show. My guest today is Andy Hein, a founder of a company called Cotton. Andy has a legal background. He's an attorney and worked at some of the top law firms in the world out of law school and then he saw an opportunity and started this business and it's really fascinating. And started this business and it's really fascinating. Apparently, almost every company, every privately held company, has exposure to being sued by patent trolls or competitors that use patents as a tool to extract money out of a company, and virtually every privately held, closely held company is at risk for this. And they have a solution that addresses this, by which the company can license or have a subscription that allows them to have access to tens of thousands of patents in the company's portfolio. So you don't need to own the patents, you can just license the necessary ones to protect you and your company. Andy: Anyway. Dave: Andy's a really dynamic guy, interesting guy, interesting service, and they can also wrap it in an estate planning wrapper to make it even more appealing. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Good afternoon Andy. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, good afternoon Dave. Andy: How are you doing? Dave: I'm doing great, thank you. So where are you calling in from today? Andy: You know I'm in the great town of Carmel, Indiana, so just right outside Indianapolis. Dave: I think you have more roundabouts than any city in the country, if my knowledge is correct on that. Andy: We do. I think we still have one or two stop signs and stoplights to take out, but they're getting thinner by the day. So, yeah, we have a lot of them Now are you a native of Indiana? Dave: I am, yeah, I'm originally from Crown Point, which is in Northwest corner of Indiana, and then eventually migrated our way down to central Indiana here, okay, well, my my all-time favorite basketball player is from Southern Indiana. Andy: Oh, who's that? Dave: That would be Larry. Andy: Legend, of course, yeah, no, obviously a great player, pretty famous around these parts too. Dave: Now you, you're an attorney. Where did you go to law school? Andy: So I went over to Georgetown Law Center over in DC and studied there, focusing mostly on patent law, but a bit on finance as well. Dave: And your undergraduate degree, I believe, is in engineering. Is that right? Andy: It is. Yeah, it's in chemical engineering from Trine University, which is a school just in northeast Indiana. Dave: Okay, yeah, it seems like most IP attorneys I know have a technical undergraduate degree. It seems to kind of go together. Yeah, it's like peas and carrots. Andy: You know, especially when you go to law school, they ask well, what do you study? A lot of folks study history or philosophy, and when you say engineering, they say you know you should think about being a patent attorney. And so you go into that and you think that's kind of interesting. Actually it's a lot of fun. So yeah, we all kind of end up there for the most part. Dave: Now, right after law school. Did you launch your own firm then, or did you take a different path? Andy: Yeah, no, I took a kind of a traditional path. So I started my career at a firm called Skadden Arps and I was in the Chicago office. There I worked on actually finance work, doing supporting M&A and chapter 11 bankruptcy, and then also did litigation there as well. So spent a few years there and then went over to another firm called Sidley Austin and there I concentrated just on patent litigation. Doing deals and litigation work is a lot of fun on paper but eventually you have to pick a horse to ride on. So I picked the litigation one, so just stuck with patent litigation and worked there for a number of years before setting out on my own. Dave: Yeah, and those are I mean arguably two of the top 10 law firms in the country, right by many metrics or top 20, you know very kind of traditional white shoe law firms right by many metrics or top 20, you know very kind of traditional white shoe law firms right. Andy: Yeah, they're up there for sure. So yeah, great place, great experience at both firms. It was a wonderful time there. Dave: So let's come up to the current time. So tell me about and off the top of my head, I don't even remember the name of the company. Tell me the name of the company and why you started it and what you guys do. Andy: Yeah, so our company is Patent Veritas. What we do is we help, for the most part, privately held businesses of all sizes with their IP litigation risk as well as enhancing their IP functionality within their business. It's kind of the culmination of what I've been doing over a number of years. We're very client focused and this is one where it kind of pulls together a lot of the past experience and work that I've done and my colleague Nick Stabinski and partner Nick Stabinski has done. So we formed that and the neat part about that is it addresses a real concern that some companies know about. Just actually had a conversation this morning where someone was very aware of what we're trying to do and trying to help the company with and others haven't heard of it. But it's a risk that's out there and a very real one that we're trying to help companies with. Dave: So I know what patent means. Veritas, I think is Latin, but I don't recall off the top of my head what does Veritas mean? Andy: So it's just patent truth. It just sounded pretty good Good Latin word in there, so we have to. We put it in there. Dave: That is great and it sounds like that you saw some opportunity in this space based on your prior experience or clients. Like was there a specific situation that made you say, hey, you know there needs, there's a hole in the market here and I think I'm the guy that needs to fill it. Was there anything in particular? Andy: Yeah, no, that's a great question and there was, it's. Mostly clients were coming to us. Two things we noticed over the years, and then also, more directly, folks were asking us On the patent side. Two things would happen, because what we do is the particular IP risk is against patent trolls. These are folks that buy patents. They don't make a product or otherwise, they just buy buckets of patents and they sue operating companies for licensing revenue. So we saw a number of clients getting sued that way, and patent lawsuits are expensive. I mean a cheap one. According to the AIPLA, which is an association of IP attorneys, a relatively lower cost one, or average one, is about $6 million if you're going to trial, which is, yes, it's a lot of money. We've had clients upwards of 50, spend 50 million plus on legal fees. So patent litigation is not cheap, and so a lot of the folks that are the patent trolls are also called non-practicing entities. These folks, they know that arbitrage costs right and so they'll come in, they'll buy the patents. A lot of times then they go to these companies and they ask for a license that's below the cost of the litigation and so that's their business model. So we saw that happening to a number of our clients and these are especially targeted now are oftentimes small and medium enterprises right, privately held businesses, because that's their money right, and so they're going to make a decision, perhaps different than a bigger company like a Samsung will make or otherwise, to say hey we have the money. Dave: Yeah, they may just make a more pragmatic decision, right, because they may not have $6 million to spend. Andy: Exactly so. The decision process by an Apple or Samsung, which has a much larger litigation budget, is a lot different than when you're targeting, say, privately held manufacturer or maybe a restaurant chain or something like that Very successful businesses and oftentimes making many millions of dollars, but their decision with that money is a lot different than an Apple. As to saying I'm just going to fight all this, we're just going to fight everything that comes our way which isn't really possible for these companies because they don't have that deep of pockets, and so we thought of a solution for that, which I'm sure we'll talk about soon. But it came from that. And then also in our work, we buy and sell patents. That's how we kind of got into forming Patent Veritas, and that comes into play here as well, where we see this secondary market of patent purchases and sales going through and oftentimes those patents ending up in the hands of these non-practicing entities or patent trolls, and then they go off and license that. So we see that market as well, and I think we're able to. We formed a company here to kind of make a difference for that and help folks out. Additionally, what we also saw a lot of times were our privately held clients again, successful businesses, all ranges of things but they didn't necessarily devote the resources or have the capability really in the IP space and so we also address that with Patent Veritas, which is helping companies have almost an instant patent portfolio when they work with us. That's also expensive to develop. You know it can cost several millions of dollars to develop your own patents organically and grow it, which is a great thing to do, but it takes money and time. It often takes several years as well. So our company kind of marries all that together, the experiences we've had with our privately held business clients, and put this together in a really neat service that we can provide to people. Dave: Okay, so I think, if my recollection is correct, I think it was in 1899 that the head of the patent office announced everything that could be invented had already been invented. Is this true? I think it was a moratorium on new patents for some period of time. Andy: Well, I think he wanted to. I don't know if he did, he might have, but that was definitely said and everyone always points to that as oh geez, you know, when everything is done, everything all the inventions are made, they point to this, you know. Some other interesting things were the patent office had kind of a list I think they still do of potential inventions or products that are impossible. One was heavier than air flight impossible right Until the Wright brothers came up with it. That didn't happen, so that was on the list. Another one that was on the list was I think this is funny hair growth for men. Almost impossible, right Until someone created it. So yeah, I think since 1899, we've had one or two inventions that have really helped us out, so I'm glad. Dave: Oh, that's funny. So you're saying so to kind of simplify things. The patent examiners just kind of had a cheat sheet of the 50 kinds of impossible things that some scam artist is going to try to patent and you can just automatically reject those when you just look at the impossible. Andy: That's right yeah. Dave: Well, talk to me about the patent, the secondary patent market. Andy: How large? Dave: like how many patents change hands a year, or what's the? How do you measure the size of that market? Andy: You know, honestly I'm not sure it's a private market. It's one where it's not there's metrics. But you know, this is one where companies buy and sell patents for strategic reasons. So it's not like the NYSE where you can go in and see how many million shares were traded. So it's one where it really is kind of a bespoke market. There's, I would say, several hundred thousand patents change hands maybe, or tens of thousands of patents maybe each year. It's quite a few, yeah. But it's a mixture between strategic players your Samsungs, your Apples, your Googles of the world maybe filling holes and doing deals with each other or other companies. And then it's also a combination of, say, these non-patent, non-practicing entities or patent trolls purchasing patents and that kind of makes this whole marketplace go. And it's a global market. People are buying and selling, especially you know some of the changes in Europe where they have a new patent court for the entire European Union, you know. So that made all these European patents change hands more often. So it really is one where there's no marketplace, single marketplace you go to and say I want to buy a patent. It's more of just folks brokering patents and just being part of the marketplace more of just folks brokering patents and just being part of the marketplace Gotcha. Dave: And then, in addition to the actual tens or hundreds of thousands of patents that are changing hands, you then have licensing deals, which are probably of a similar magnitude, I'm guessing. Andy: Yeah, oh, definitely. So there's a lot of licenses, yeah, and those now the patents, don't necessarily change hands, but certainly value does, right. So you'll see a lot of companies cross-license patents where they can have access to each other's portfolio, and then there's different degrees of licensing where, for example, at a university, you can license patents out on an exclusive basis. So you have every right as the licensee, almost every right except ownership of the patent itself, and so that too, even though that's a license, that's really closer to being a sale because of how many rights transfer over to the person. So, yeah, the patents are it's a little bit of a complicated business. Just because it's property, but it's intangible properties, you can do a lot of different things without actually changing hands, or you can change, actually have the property change hands. Dave: Fascinating. I wanted I'm really anxious to dive into this. I know you speak on the subject a lot. How do you want to kind of lay this out for the listeners? Andy: What kind of? Dave: sequence of events. Andy: You kind of want to go through to explain in more detail your services, your product and such yeah, we can just take it from the top of how we normally or folks will approach us because there's some, as you know, there's some interesting estate planning opportunities as well that we can put together with this. So, on the front end, with the businesses, a lot of times we'll be approached or we'll approach clients, or what have you usually referred over to? They're referred over to us and the ideal client is someone who's a privately held business, successful privately held business and it can be of a variety of. You know, a lot of times people think that the folks who need patents or use them are high tech, and that's not necessarily the case, especially in the fact of the non-patent. You know, the patent trolling side right, the patent trolls really like to have kind of simpler businesses to target, because even those simpler businesses use a lot of technology today. So our clients come to us all the way from their restaurant owners, successful restaurant chains, all the way to maybe trading operations where they're doing stock trading and they have their own software or sell software in that To, of course, you know your traditional high tech companies that are privately held, of which there's many, and then some people in between, so the metal benders of the world that you know are very. We have in the Midwest right A lot of manufacturing companies, so all those are great clients because they all use technology. Even real estate developers nowadays are using some really high-tech stuff and they're not just digging dirt and building houses. So really any of those clients are interesting folks to talk to and could use our services. So what we do is we'll sit down with them, talk about what we do, like we're doing, and then also just understand some of the risks they face, namely like what do you do to make money? How do you earn income? So we figure that out, because that's where the patent trolls are going to target. Then what we'll be able to do is match up. We have patents and then we can also purchase patents in the secondary market if we don't have the right ones for them. And then for the most part we'll figure that out and then we'll right size the license amount to see, okay, how many services of ours can we really help? What can we do? And then we'll get a patent license over to them, or the license or the patents from us. Because what we do is I didn't even mention this, I skipped ahead but we go in the marketplace, our marketplace that we're in every day, and we see these patents that are there that might be good patent, troll patents or targets, and we'll buy them before the trolls do. And then we own those patents, we put them essentially can think of in a bucket and then we license those out to our clients. So we have access whether we own them or have access to many tens of thousands of patents that can work for the client's purposes. So we do that client gets a license to this, and the longer they subscribe with us, the better. The value is because we'll charge a flat fee and we're going out there and buying patents all over the place for them. Also, what we'll do is kind of understand, okay, what are the risks that you face from competitors and what are some of your goals in the IP space. Like, do you have a patent portfolio? Do you want one? Should we have one? And then we can also use our own patents to provide that kind of starting point for them if they want to build their own portfolio or if they're sued by a competitor, which happens a lot, which is one of the reasons why we formed Patent Veritas, because we can instantly help them out and say hey, we have the following three or four patents you should probably use. You can sue the competitor, because the worst thing you can have is to be sued for patent litigation and not have a patent to sue back to somebody. They have a gun, you don't? That's a pretty bad fight and we get called a lot of times Again. One of the impetus, one of the reasons we started Patent Veritas we were getting calls from people to say hey, we have a patent lawsuit against us. I don't have any patents. Usually the lawyers would call us and say can you get us patents quickly? How fast do you need them, like in a day or two? Well, that's not going to happen. It takes a while to get these patents, to purchase the right ones. So now we can have these patents available in case they're sued by a competitor, and that really helps out a case. Dave: So that's on the front end. I was going to ask you, so your clients, are they licensing, like your whole portfolio of patents or just certain patents? How do you typically do that? Andy: Yeah, just the ones that are going to be of value to them. So we'll have groups of patents that are of value to almost any companies. I call them process workflow patents. So almost every business has some sort of process workflow that they go through, and it usually involves software. These are the most typical ones, but that's almost every company everything from a restaurant where you're purchasing you know you don't think about it, but if you order from a restaurant online on your phone, there's a process workflow that goes from start to finish, or even when you sit down. A lot of times restaurants are automated, especially some of the bigger, not necessarily publicly changed, but some of the better, even kind of privately held chained restaurants. They're going to have a process workflow from when you sit down, you order, you do this and there's going to be software and automation involved in that. So those sorts of patents, generally everybody should probably have a license to, and we're on the lookout for those all the time, because those are prime patent troll patents. So we want to buy those and at the same time then there's going to be some that are a little more bespoke to their industry, right. So if you're in the manufacturing business, you're going to have a certain need of different patents versus if you do, say, crypto trading, right, you're going to have a different set of patents that are more crypto specific. The metal benders of the world, the manufacturers of the world, are going to be over here. They're going to have a different group of patents, so we'll include those as appropriate. Or, if you're a restaurant, you're going to have different online ordering patents that are probably very relevant to your business, not so much to the crypto guys. So that's how we usually do that and kind of right size, which ones are going to work best for who? Dave: And you mentioned the scenario that an attorney representing a defendant will call you saying, hey, my client needs some patents. Can you help us out? It seems like, from what I know about litigation, it seems like it's almost too late by then. Is that true? Is it better, even if it was the day before they were sued, if they had the license in place? Yeah, oh yeah. Andy: Whenever, if you're the defendant and you're calling us looking for patents, it's on the late side and that's tough to get in place. We can do it, but it's going to take a while and that's not the position you want to be in, because the case isn't going to be stayed just because you don't have any defenses. It's going to keep moving. In fact, the plaintiff is going to be really happy. The adversary is happy that you don't have patents and to move that case along quickly because it's going to force you into a settlement. That's not very favorable. So yeah, so that's why we always try and get the word out, try and talk with people, like we're doing here, like, hey, guys, we can offer this, let's talk now, as opposed to when you're sued by a patent troll or you're sued by a competitor. Let's talk now and get this in place and let's get that access to the IP in place now. Dave: Okay, so let me just recap to make sure I have it. So you're having proactive conversations with these privately held companies and you're kind of assessing their current IP portfolio and then you're deciding if it should be supplemented with some patents licenses to patents that you own and then you kind of get them set up as a client to patents that you own. And then you kind of get them set up as a client and then over time you'll acquire more patents that they may just automatically benefit from. And then if they then do get sued, they have a really strong defense because they have access to all of the licenses or all the patents that they've licensed from you. So now, all of a sudden, instead of coming back saying, hey, you've infringed on the plaintiff's patent, they can say no, we haven't, and in fact we actually have intellectual property that protects what we're doing. Is that kind of the idea? Andy: Yeah. Well, it's even more than that they can use the patents to sue the other party. It's not so much it protects what they're doing, it's more of hey. They're going to say. The plaintiff is going to say, hey, you're using my patent. Look at this, You're manufacturing tires a certain way. That's fine. What they're going to say is now our client is going to be able to say fine, but we have five other patents that you're using right now, so we're going to sue you back, so we can either go through with this. We can either go through with this whole lawsuit and I'm probably going to make more money off this than you are or we can resolve this suit, Because the goal is to actually bring the suit to a close as quickly as possible for our client. And by doing that by having your own weapons, you can do that. Dave: Now with a patent troll, you won't have as much of an offensive approach. Right, that's really more if it's a competitor suing you. Andy: That's correct. Yeah, if it's a competitor, you have that. If it's a patent troll, the goal here is to try and starve the trolls of as many patents as possible and minimize that risk. So it's a double part that we're able to provide for that. Dave: Okay, okay, all right. Well, let's move on to kind of the next part of the process or the business. Andy: Yeah, no, I mentioned some really neat tax and estate planning opportunities here as well. So the way the business is structured is that, if we're able to allow our clients, this is kind of a longer term solution for them with their IP side, and that allows us to do some really neat things as well, because the most common, most popular thing is for us to actually then look at insurance and insuring our deal, if you will, and that is. There's a couple of different ways to do it and it really depends on the client's own estate planning. A lot of the folks that we work with are pretty well-off folks, pretty affluent folks from their businesses, but the simplest thing would be that we could take out a life insurance policy on the business owner who's of the company, and the reason we want to do that is because we want to make sure our deal goes through. So a lot of clients are going to sign a multi-year deal, three five-year deals, ideally even longer. We'll have you as a client as long as you want, but something in that order and then we're able to take out a policy and purchase a policy where we pay the premiums, and this is a whole life policy, and so the cash value is going to accumulate in that as we pay those premiums, and then if at a certain time the client decides to end the relationship with us, we're able to transfer that policy over to them in an efficient way however that works for them. Again, that's kind of bespoke to the particular client, but we can move that policy over to them. So the advantage is twofold. Now is that by working with us, their business is getting access to all these different patents, access to our portfolio able to counterclaim against adversaries if they're threatened or sued threatened or sued and at the same time now we can help them out with a life insurance policy where they name the beneficiaries, they do those sorts of things and then ultimately that policy will be sent over to them when our relationship with us ends. And so now they have a hopefully fully paid up whole life policy with cash value that they can use for whatever purpose they want. So it's a really neat way that it's structured. There's some other types of insurance as well. If folks qualify for that, it's called private placement life insurance, and with private placement life insurance that's for accredited investors. But that's another possibility where we can work with them via PPLI, or some of our clients have PPLI it's private placement life insurance is called PPLI. They have that in place already and so we can do something similar with that slightly different structure for our backend. But again, if it's already set up or if they want to set that up, that's a different form of life insurance and it really depends on what the client. What's best for the client as to their particular situation. But the neat part about that is is that they get a double. You know, they get both benefits, not just the. Their business gets the benefit and then they get the benefit as well. Personally for some of these in life insurance. So it's a neat system. We're able to work with that and to offer our clients. Dave: Okay. So let me just let me check for understanding there. So the client signs some, some contract with you, you know you, for some period of time three, five more years to basically have a subscription to the various bespoke combination of patents that they are licensing Because of that contractual relationship and the receivable that your company has, that gives you an insurable interest, because if the owner of that business were to die suddenly, that might jeopardize the ongoing nature of the business, which might jeopardize your ability to collect on this long-term contract, right? So that's what creates the insurable interest. And then, in theory, every client wants your product. They just maybe don't want to pay for it. Well, and it's not just your product, it's a lot of things, right? Most people want lots of stuff, they just don't want to pay for it. And so by using this structure, by adding the additional layer of the life insurance, it makes it a more attractive value proposition for them, and not only in the short run, but even in the long run. Andy: That does no well, said Absolutely, because, yeah, this is an extra benefit from working with us. It's not just, you know, especially privately held businesses, right, it's again, this is those owners money, right, and they're working hard for that. So they may want this service, but they say, like you said, geez, this is kind of expensive, because patent licenses are not cheap. There's several hundreds of thousands of dollars often. So this is a way, though, to provide an additional incentive for working with us over the long haul. Right, making a commitment with us will help make a commitment with you as well and provide a real benefit to you and your family from working with us, in addition to a client for the long term. And that's where the value can really accumulate for the business as well, because each year, we're going out, we're buying, we're bird dogging more patents, we're buying more patents, so that bucket, so to speak, just keeps getting bigger for that price. So it's a great thing for their business too, because the longer you work with us, the more patents you're going to have a license to, and the more value you're going to realize for your license, the more patents you're going to have a license to and the more value you're going to realize for your license. Dave: How do you decide, like, let's look at a hypothetical industry that has 10 players in it? Let's say it's some niche industry and there's 10 companies that all manufacture something similar? Well, obviously you can't go sell your solution to all 10 of the companies. I mean, I guess you could. It would at least protect all of them from the patent trolls, right? Give them any protection from one another. How do you? What's your strategy there? Is it kind of a once you know? In a situation like this, once you have one client in this space, do you not take on any more? Or by yeah, and I guess it depends on which risks they're trying to ensure. If it's the patent troll risk, in theory the 10 of them are all better off teaming up, if you will, to combine their resources, and it would be more cost-effective for you to license the same group of patents 10 times or sell 10 subscriptions instead of just one. Tell me about how you strategically look at that situation. Andy: Yeah, situations like that I mean you have to be careful on because you don't want to have where you know you start having kind of clients suing each other and both of them coming to you for patents to use against each other. So it's a great point made and we assess that on kind of a case by case basis. But it really is looking out for kind of a conflict of interest. We haven't had that happen, but if it is, we would look at that and say, okay, we'd be careful about what rights each party would have. Like you said, if they all want patent troll protection, that's not as big of a deal. But if folks want to have that access as well to the patent portfolio, now we really need to look at it and say, okay, what could happen if these guys sue each other and what should we do? And the right answer there is to not take conflicting positions. That's a pretty straightforward thing. Dave: Well, that's another reason. When you're talking to a potential client in this hypothetical scenario of 10 players in this industry, the fact that you're talking to one of them implies you don't have the other nine as a client. And if they say no to you in the back of their mind they have to be thinking well, you know who are they going to call next. Right, yeah no, that's. Andy: Yeah, we've had something not exactly similar but like that happened in other, and that's right. You know it's a Coke or Pepsi thing, so if Coke says no, we go to Pepsi, then Coke knows that. Well geez, that wasn't maybe the best thing. So yeah, that's absolutely right. It's a little incentive, I guess, for the client who we're talking to to sign up for us, in addition to all the benefits we just talked about. Maybe they don't want to see we'll be behind the scenes and all of a sudden get whacked over the head with some patents. That's never a fun day, sure. Dave: So can you for the listeners. I find that, like case studies, examples are really helpful to help learn. Do you have like an example or two you could give us and I'm sure you'll? You know they'll be anonymous, but maybe just an example of you know of maybe somebody who was a client who got sued and the outcome because of this? Or could you give us some kind of examples or a blended example of several things, a hypothetical, whatever you're most comfortable with? Andy: Yeah, we can do a couple different ones. I mean, we haven't had yet where a client was sued and had to access the portfolio. We haven't had that yet, but we have had in the past where we will get. As I mentioned, folks are sued, they don't have patents, their adversary does, and this was in an area where you wouldn't even think of as being like there's patents on this. Car sales, okay, used car sales, oh wow. No one thinks of this like that. But there is actually. There are patents out there. I know for a fact there are patents out there in the used car sales market at reaching pricing and reaching distribution and how to optimize inventory, all that. Those are real patents and they were issued by the United States government. And we were in the middle of that case won't name parties but where two competitors used car salespeople, big ones, very large companies, both privately held one sued the other. Not surprisingly, we got a phone call from their attorney and they said listen, we have a bit of a situation on our hands. These two companies are suing each other. Their competitor just sued them. They have a patent that pretty much covers 100% of their revenue, which is never a good position to be in, because that means that all of your businesses is at risk. We need patents. We need them now. We were able to help them and we were able to locate and find used car patents which was a great win. And they were very happy and were able to do that in a way that, in a timely fashion. However, that was a fire drill that I don't ever want to go through again and really did set this whole business of patent veritas in motion. One of the reasons because Nick and I Nick Stabinski and I looked at each other and thought there has to be a better way than this and so we formed this. So that's a great case study. Because, again, if I were to tell you before Dave, hey, a great case study. Because, again, if I were to tell you before Dave, hey, there's patents on used car sales, you'd think I'm crazy. But there is, and there's a lot of them out there. So that's a great example of that. And then, in terms of other folks just clients of signing up, how that works, sure, there's one. I'll give a more traditional role. They do they sell software, partially as a reseller of software and partially their own, and they have different process workflows that they have. They realize the value. I talked with these folks. They realize the value of our services and, fairly straightforward, just what I mentioned, which is you look, we sit down and say how do you earn your revenue, how do you make your money, what does your workflow look like? And you get a license in place relatively quickly. That only takes a license after we understand how the business works. It really only takes if the client's ready a day. It's very simple to have that we have, you know, our licenses we like to use. It's very simple to put one of these up and running, and so that was great. And then they also realized the value of the life insurance. And now that of course takes a little longer but the two can be done separately. We can get the license in place first and then let the process play out for the life insurance piece, because of course there's some underwriting for our client there personally to do and I should mention, there's at the same time depending on the carrier and provider. You know cause. Sometimes the question is well, what if I can't get insurance? Excuse me, there's actually ways, there's actually carriers that you can insure different groups and the like and still receive the benefit of some of those insurance things like cash value and the like that they might care about. You don't get all the benefits, but you can get some of the value still out of it. So you know, that wasn't this instance, the folks are going through the underwriting, no problem, but that's out there. So that's a fairly straightforward situation. Dave: Now, you're probably not going to like this question, but I'm going to ask it anyway, In this hypothetical example of the 10 companies in this one niche, and you're talking to one of them and they think might this be a strategy for me to weaken my other nine competitors? Might I be a little patent trollish, like, but this is at least a legitimate operating company and the patents that we would be seeking to enforce, I mean, actually revolve around our business. They're not the non. What did you call the patent trolls? Non-operating entities. Andy: Yeah, non-practicing entities Sure. Dave: So if somebody did that and let's just say they didn't even have the conversation, or a year into it, this idea suddenly strikes them and they get an aggressive attorney and they start suing these other folks. Is that a problem on your end, or whether they use their service offensively or defensively? Are you neutral to? Andy: that. So if they're a client and they come to us and say, hey, we want to use the patents offensively, we'd have to look at it and really think it might be best to even just sell them the patents at that point. So there's different ways. Yeah, we would talk with the client and understand their goals as to why they need it or otherwise, because, again, that's a competitive position. You know, it's obviously like in the example I gave with used car sales. The one company felt strong enough that they wanted to sue another used car sales company because maybe, it's you know, they're gaining market share or a whole bunch of reasons why companies might use patents, right. So you know, that's really a conversation we'd have to have with the client to understand is this the best way? Is this what you need for your goals? And then we'll kind of help them out as best as possible. Dave: Yeah, and especially with the Department of Labor. I think it was the Department of Labor that basically invalidated non-competes. So it could be, if this competitor is very good at stealing their top car sales people and they can't really use a non-compete to stop that any longer, maybe this would be another way to shut that off. Andy: Yeah, it could. I mean, these are kind of case-by-case examples that you want to really talk with the client. But yeah, that's correct. Especially it would be one where maybe they've stolen the IP that you have, they're implementing it in their system or whatever. Then you know, you really that's something that you, that's what patents are for, right, that's what we're here for. So we want to have that conversation, we want to talk with them and work with them to help our clients. Dave: What do you enjoy most about what you're doing now with Patent Veritas and your role within the company? What do you enjoy most? Andy: and a lot of money. And it's neat to see a lot of these folks grew the business from the ground up. Most of our clients are so. They started their businesses and have grown it the entire time, and in a whole bunch, like I said, everything from restaurants all the way to really complicated software that just boggles the mind when you look at it. But every single person is interesting because they all have some insight into their work that really has allowed them to be successful. And it's neat working with people like that. It's really a privilege. It's really fun because you learn something and you say why didn't I think of that? But then we're able to help them out and really help their business, protect their business with this and then help them personally as well, right With some of their estate planning, their tax and estate planning, with some of these insurance needs. So it's pretty cool to combine all that together. And it's never a dull day On the patent side, even you know, when we're out there in the market bird dogging and trying to buy patents, it's always interesting because you know you're always learning something off the patents themselves too. You get to read through those and kind of see is this something that's going to work for us, is it not? And you know, have the team kind of weigh in on all that, and that's a lot of fun too. So it's a really neat. It's a really neat business. It's every day is a little different. Every company definitely is a little different and every client's a little different, so it's always kind of cool. There's no, it's not a cookie cutter business where every day we're just like, okay, I mean, we have a nice workflow to get folks signed up, but it's always interesting to meet them and to learn more about what they do, like everything from the used car sales guys to, you know, the more traditional software folks and guys that manufacture, you know, boats. Dave: So it's kind of cool to just see like I can appreciate it, because that's really what I love about my role. You know, with my companies I'm working with the same type of clients. You are Mine just are in a niche where they export at least a portion of their product, and I love working with those folks because you know they're the lifeblood of our economy. You know there's just a, they're dynamic, you know ambitious, they're visionaries, they're successful. I mean just. You know there's a saying that you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with, and I can think of no better group of five people to spend the most time with than successful entrepreneurs. So I love that as well. Andy: It really is the best. I mean people I tell other, my friends or whatever, and I'm like it's pretty, it's just pretty cool, it's inspiring, like you said, just to be around these folks and to and then be able to help them. It's kind of neat Like hey, we're able to help your business just a little bit be more successful. That's pretty cool, it's a real privilege. Dave: Sure, Okay. So then that's the one side, that's the part you like some of the things your clients tell you. You know, like, once they become a client, you know they've started working with you. What are the things they tell you that they say that they really like working with your firm? What do they tell you makes your firm special and unique? Andy: You know, I we've been told a couple of different things. One is we're very, we're very hardworking. We're always working on their behalf, always going hard for them. That's always good, available. You know, we're very available to call folks like that and punctual, and also just actually had a nice award and they said you know, we treat people with respect and so it's. I think that's a big deal nowadays especially, so that's a wonderful thing. So folks like that as well, just I guess it's just we're hardworking, put our nose down for them and treat the folks with respect and be there for them. I think that's what I've heard. Dave: So that's great. That is great. Well, as we wrap up, I have three more questions. One is if somebody wants to reach out to you to explore the services, what's the best way for them to reach you? Linkedin, call you, email you. Andy: You know, email is always good, or a phone call, or LinkedIn, any of those. Dave: So I'll give you all three, yeah, the LinkedIn we'll put in the show notes so they'll have access to that. So what's the email? Andy: Sure, it's ahin ahein@patentveritas.com P-A-T-E-N-T-V-E-R-I-T-A-S.com, and then you can also phone. If you're so inclined to give a call, you can do so. It's oh geez, I just blanked that number because I don't call my own number. Dave: I know. Andy: But I'll give you another one 312-371-6578 is a direct number for me, so you can call that as well. Dave: It's kind of funny. I don't call myself, so I hear you Okay. Well, that's one of the three questions. The second one is there anything I didn't ask you that you wish I had? Andy: No, I think we covered a lot of information, so this is great. I'm sure I'll think about that an hour from now, but no. I think it's good Okay. Dave: Well, the last one. It's kind of a fun one and it's a question you may be don't get asked every day. So if you could go back in time and give advice to your 25-year-old self, when you were graduating from law school, what advice might you give to yourself? Andy: Wow, those are always that's tough to look back. I'd say you know it's going to. It all works out It'll work out Some things that happen to you. You don't realize why they do, but then later on, looking back, you understand that needed to happen. So some really good things happen later. Dave: So it works out and just keep moving forward, I and Well, that sounds like great advice for anybody, not just your 25 year old self. So that is great. Well, andy, I and Well, that sounds like great advice for anybody, not just your 25 year old self. So that is great. Well, andy I, this has really been fun and I've learned a lot and I think our listeners and my clients could really benefit from from knowing your company. Oh, I guess. The one other question so if somebody is interested in your service, you know you can take the law you're out of the law firm, but can you take the law firm out of the attorney? Does the clock start ticking, you know, the moment they call you, or how does your process work there? Do you have an introductory conversation? That's complimentary, or what's your? Andy: We don't. I mean we don't charge by the hour or anything like that. So all of this is the upfront work is done, just upfront work, just to see. Is this a good client? Is this a the person we're talking with? Would this be a good client, right? Would we be a good fit for them? Are we going to be able to provide the value that I just talked about and we just talked about? Are we going to be able to provide that value for you? Occasionally, the answer is no, because the business might not support it, and so that's simple. But no, our fees come from the patent license. That's how we make our money, and so we want to make sure that this is the right person that we're working with, because the right person. We can provide value to that person, we can actually add to their business. So there's no hourly rate, there's no anything that you know just to understand their business and otherwise have plenty of conversations, and if we're not the good fit, we'll tell you it's not going to be good for anybody. So we let folks know. Dave: That is great. Well, andy, again, thank you so much for your time. This has really been fun and you know, being from the Midwest myself, I'm from another one of those. I states Iowa. I always joke that, even though I've been in Texas for 40 years, I always joke. People in the West or the South, they all think Iowa, idaho, ohio and Indiana are the same place. All those states that start with a vowel end with a vowel somewhere up in the Midwest. They think they're all like the same place. Andy: Yeah, I've been asked if I like to ski in Colorado before, even though it's about a 12-hour drive, which the answer is yes, but I don't get there too often Understood. Dave: Well, hey, thanks again, Andy, and I hope you have a great afternoon. Andy: Cool Thanks, Dave. Thanks for having me, really appreciate it. Special Guest: Andy Hein.

In this episode, Andy shares a live recorded Demo of the IRRISketch design software and the potential that it may have to disrupt the industry. Learn more here: IRRISketch === Andy: When I see something new, I like to check it out. I like to learn about it. And I, I'm a strong believer that every irrigation system proposal should have a drawing. I just, that's what I believe. And using a lot of the design software, it's not that particularly great. Now there's some software like LandFX that is really actually fantastic, but it offers sort of a level that is a lot more, I would say, than the average irrigation or the average landscape contractor needs. It's really, in my opinion, designed more for that architect engineer because it can provide you with some really, really It's just above and beyond what the average design build contractor needs. So I had a web meeting, sort of training overview, actually not training demonstration, let's call it a demo of the Erisketch software and I'm playing, I'm going to play that for you today. We, we probably spoke for about an hour and a half and this episode's only. Maybe 35 minutes. So I did my best to cut it down, not to bore you since you can't see the screen. So you can't really see the demo, but I wanted you to hear the conversation and some of the things that we were talking about and what's really fascinating or what, what. What makes me inspired and excited about this company is where we started when we started the conversation was about iris sketch irrigation design, but when we ended this conversation, it was actually more about building a stack of software that could help you. If you're the contractor, from beginning to end, and what I mean by that is, it can help you from the design of the system, to the materialist, to the pricing, to the proposal, to the ordering of supplies. And this is something that I have been, I have been waiting for. I feel like we play in separate buckets right now, we play in the buckets of irrigation design software, we play in the [00:02:00] buckets of um, Business management software like ServiceTitan, then we play in the buckets of, of distribution. And there really isn't anything as of today that can tie things end to end. And Errorsketch does not do that today, but I, I just have this hunch that what they're building and what you'll hear in this episode is the first attempt to try to tie a lot of this together. And it really does start with you. You're the one out there meeting with the client, residential or commercial. You're the one out there designing the system, determining what the materials are going to be. And then you're the one that has to place the order, install the material, and then deliver that customer with the final project. And so what, what you'll hear today is Iris sketch sort of combining all of these things together in a potentially very disruptive way, which is why I played that clip in the beginning, because I think our industry needs more disruption. If you look at the consumer goods industry, like Instacart. Instacart is filing for their IPO right now at the time of this recording, and it's disrupting the, the grocery business. There is a good chance that era, uh, not era sketch. Instacart is driving down the price of the goods and they're going to roll an advertising platform on top and offer upsells, offer brand manufacturers, a direct channel to the consumer through their software layered. Uh, layered on top of the grocery store. And I think that that could happen right here in our industry. So a couple of pointers, a couple of quick, um, want to see this a little bit so that you do listen. And if it, if it by any means starts to bore you, just hit that 30 second skip ahead because there is a lot of good, interesting meat in here. And this was not recorded as a podcast. So I should preface that this was recorded. I just recorded my demo. And then I asked for their permission to use some of it on today's episode. So I [00:04:00] want to have these guys back to have a real sort of more legitimate actual podcast discussion because this was just sort of a behind the scenes look at the demonstration. So a couple, a couple things you're going to learn today. You're going to learn how Erisketch, their main goal is quick and easy. They want to provide design software that is quick, easy. Of course it has to be accurate. But what I noticed the most, it was actually a beautiful presentation and a lot of irrigation design software that's out there. The goal of the software isn't to be beautiful. And the goal of the software is not, not necessarily to be quick or easy. It's mostly to be accurate. But I'm a strong believer that you got to sell the project. You can kind of figure out some of the details later. So I really liked the idea of having to be quick, easy, and a beautiful presentation so that you can use it to sell. Then they have an integration with Mosher. So I went ahead just this morning, ordered myself a Mosher. On the stick, because I want to start playing with this. I want to use Mosier to do a full site, take off, load it into the era sketch software and learn how to design with it. And then you're going to learn how you can. Potentially use it to build your bill of materials. So you can load in your own pricing libraries, your own parts lists, and you can make changes on the fly. So let's say you design it one way, the customer wants some changes. When you change it live in Erisketch, it is going to automatically update that bill of material and potentially that proposal. In real time, you don't have to do all those, those three steps separately. You can add five heads. You can move material right on the drawing with the customer if you would like to, and it will update the rest of it for you. So I just think that there's, man, there's just so much good [00:06:00] opportunity with this, with this software. I can't wait to try it out. I haven't used it myself. So please don't necessarily consider this to be any kind of an endorsement. I'm just excited about. The possibility. I'm excited about what these guys, how these guys think, how they are thinking longterm and what it could bring to what it could bring to the industry as far as efficiency value innovation. And when those three things come in, there's going to be some people that their cheese gets moved. And if that's you, that's okay. You got it. Everybody's cheese is often always moving and you got to be looking in new places for new opportunities. So I guess, I guess that's all I have for this intro. Let's, uh, let's just jump right in and roll the episode with my conversation with the founders of Eerie Sketch and Eerie Cellar. Theo: Uh, as you mentioned that I introduce, invite also my colleague, my partner, Philip, he's the, uh, inventor of Erie sketch, the design software. And I think, uh, the right conversation should only. With both  Andy: of us sure together. Yeah. Thank  Philiph: you. Yeah. Okay, how to proceed? I want  Theo: I want Philip maybe to explain what's the idea? For Iris sketch for our program. So he's the inventor. I only came up with him two years after the first launch of every sketch and Yes,  Philiph: Philip. Let's go. Yeah, so let's start with the proper pronunciation. It's Erie sketch. I am I think that it's not properly, uh, trans, uh, transposed to English. Yes,  Andy: it's. Oh, no, it's good. Yeah. You're a sketch. I get it. Absolutely.  Philiph: Okay. So it's about irrigation and sketch. It means that, uh, you make a sketch of irrigation design without any effort and, uh, you can start, [00:08:00] uh, as fast as you can with, uh, Making a proposal to the customer that started when I started doing irrigation. Actually, I'm from the ground. Uh, I was mounting the systems and I understood that there is a big problem with the projects and making them is takes a lot of time from my life and from my personal life. And, uh, I Couldn't find any, uh, good, uh, software for this. So I, uh, searched the rain card, tested it, but it was too complicated for me. And, uh, I thought that, uh, with my knowledge of basics of web development and, um, so on, I can, uh, make for me, for myself, the proper. tool that will be fast and easy and, you know, in the cloud. So that was my, uh, um, I wanted it very much, so it will be available through all devices and, uh, everything will be stored there. So, uh, that's why I started with this. It was three or four years ago already. Uh, and the idea is to make it fast so, uh, I can show you, I can show my screen and what it can do. So, yeah. That would be  Andy: great. Yeah. Everything. Wow. So what were you doing? You said you were doing irrigation before you started this. Um, I  Philiph: was working from 2012 at irrigation and, uh, it's like six or five or six years. I, I was in the field, um, and in the winter we had no occupation, so I tested out my skills and the development. So, yeah, no, I  Andy: think it's really important because I shouldn't say, I don't know the number, but I would say most contractors don't deliver the homeowner a, or the client, commercial or residential, a drawing. You know, some places they have to because it's mandatory. Other places they may add another fee or maybe it was done by a designer, but just for like the average home. You know, they might sketch [00:10:00] something on a piece of paper perhaps and leave it with the client, but there's nothing that's a true kind of record drawing. And, um, you know, a brand new system doesn't really matter. But then as time goes on and somebody wants to make some modifications or something's not working, that's when having a drawing. Really helps  Philiph: the maintenance and support for the project. Yeah, it's crucial to have something where our pipes laid at least. So, uh, that was also my idea because I'm, uh, was making, yeah, 50% on my knee with the paper and, uh, I said, I tried to deliver the customer, uh, belief that I can do it, uh, in a good way. So, and, uh, I thought that. So this will be really professional if I can do it fast and with some present, uh, presentation that is good looking, uh, like an output from the ear sketch now. So, uh, then you start, uh, the basic drawing when you create new projects. So you can, uh, measure the field or you can use the new tool, the Mosher, uh, that is used, um, Oh,  Andy: in U. S. I know. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen that. You can actually tell me, tell me how that works.  Philiph: Uh, that works very simple. You have your Mosher measurements, and when you start drawing a new polygon, you can import, I don't know where I have, uh, some Mosher. Yeah.  Andy: Okay. So you use your Mosher, and you get your exported file, and then you can import it into here? Yeah, definitely. Ah,  Philiph: exactly. So, uh, for example, this is a measurement from the Mosher. Uh, ported to the Iriscage, uh, drawing with a one to one scale. So, uh, when you measure, uh, measure this, you can export as CSV file and there is all data and you just need to start drawing a polygon and  Andy: say, yeah. So now you just gave me a reason to go buy the Mosier. I'm going to buy the Mosier. I'm going to test this out and make it work because I think that combining those together. That is, what a great  Philiph: [00:12:00] idea. Yes, that's really, uh, making, improving the speed, uh, of the delivery. Oh, maybe it's  Theo: always, uh, possibility, possible to, to add some underlayers. So we can add  Philiph: photos of  Andy: drawings. Okay, cool. I was going to ask you that. Could I screen capture something out of Google Earth, maybe? And then just put it in here and then take the Mosier and put it on there.  Philiph: Yeah, actually, I don't know some, uh, I don't have some, uh, images here on the computer, but, uh, you can, uh, input anything that is in raster or in PDF file. So it will be, uh, in the Erie sketch. Also you can, uh, for example, export from, uh, AutoCAD or more, uh, sustainable software, more,  Andy: more big. And I love the trees because typically an irrigation drawing is very flat. It is, you know, an engineered file. There's no pizzazz, there's no like sexiness to it. It doesn't sell, but this is giving you the ability to, you know, add some sales appeal to the drawing. Yes.  Philiph: Yes. That was made especially for Iris Cage by the, uh, the artist. So he will, he's drawing, uh, actually the nature and I asked him to make some stuff like this so you can then make some, for example, the flowers. I'm not so big  Andy: designer. Hey, it's all good. Even just dropping a couple specimen trees around the property could make it, could enhance the drawing, you know? Yeah,  Philiph: definitely. Yeah. So it can be curved as you want. So you can, um. Use it as a simple sketch tool for a landscape also to deliver the concept of the garden, for example, uh, it's why not when you switch to irrigation tab, everything is more, uh, a pack. Yeah. And, uh, uh, so you can now, uh, focus on your irrigation. You set up your, uh, water source, you set up your. Uh, manifolds or [00:14:00] you don't start with the manifolds, of course, you now, uh, need to understand which nozzle you need to draw. Yeah. There is a wide range of the nozzles. If  Andy: you could, maybe we just, um, remove those layers, you know, start with that polygon and then let's just, you know, let me just give you, could I just give you some parameters? Like here's how many gallons a minute we have, uh, here's what our pressure is. And then we can kind of go from there. Uh,  Philiph: no, actually, there is the, uh, the other, uh, way of thinking for us. So you'd first you need to cover this area at any, uh, you know, with your, uh, with your, uh, sprinklers. So you need to cover to deliver the precipitation. And, uh, by knowing the precipitation, uh, by knowing the amount of flow, uh, then you make zoning, uh, uh, based on your, um, pump, you know, your pump, or for example, the wood designer, uh, knows every time what is the water source, uh, so he can calculate it in, uh, in mind how much of the water flow he. He will have for one, uh, zone, yes, for one, uh, great zone. So when he starts to make in the, uh, drawing the nozzles, we, uh, we focus mostly on the covering area with the nozzles. It's very handy tool here that automatically fits, uh, your, uh,  Andy: Now, the nozzle though is subject to the pressure. So how are you getting a coverage if you don't necessarily know your pressure? Philiph: Uh, the, uh, currently when you start drawing the standard pressure is applied. So it's, uh, for example, for MP rotator, it's 45 PCI. Yeah. So, uh, and then of course, uh, when you realize that, um, we have. Flow, for example, uh, 87, uh, gallons per hour, and it's not enough for [00:16:00] us. Uh, our pump won't, uh,  Andy: Can we switch that? Cause in the U S we don't think in gallons per hour, it's gallons per minute, gallons  Philiph: per minute. Okay. Just a second. Because we also don't think even in gallons, that's just my attempt  Andy: here. Like an emitter is gallons per hour on micro, but otherwise it's yeah. Gallons per  Philiph: minute. So, yeah, we have the, for example, 1. 5 gallons per minute. Let's  Andy: go ahead and put the other ones in there. You know, let's fill that in.  Philiph: Let's do it. So you select the type of nozzle, not actually the, you can select the proper nozzle that you know, but I have also auto drawing system that you can choose. Uh, in, uh, in a whole range of that class of nozzles. So for example, MP Rotator provides you with MP3 5000, uh, so it's very easy to draw the nozzles with this tool. You can, you  Andy: need to try it on your own. And it's, um, how is it determining the distance? And the spacing, or you?  Philiph: First, you start with placing the nozzle, then you set the needed radius that you can see on the drawing. And when you click, Then, uh, by the, uh, based on the angle you said, and based on availability of nozzles, you can see that, uh, the proper nozzle is chosen. Okay. So that's how it works. Okay. Okay. Now you can see the whole, uh, consumption and it's five gallon per minute. So it's a tool that is meant for designers. For advanced designers, not for like customers who want to design their garden irrigation or something. So they should know how it will behave on which pressure it will work with this, with this consumption. And, uh, When you start to make zoning for, uh, for example, [00:18:00] if our pump can do, uh, needed pressure only for two gallons per minute, we need, we know that we need at least three zones here. Uh, yeah, two zones. Yeah,  Andy: let's just say we want to do two zones for this instance. For example,  Philiph: yeah, we, we're making two zones and we see how to properly cut, uh, uh, the, into two pieces of this. So for example, we have. Almost five, uh, gallon per minute. Uh, no, I didn't select 5. 15. And when you start to take off one side, you can see it's decreasing up to three. And if we remove also this, it will have a 2. 5. So this will be definitely one zone, this line and the center. So, and then you just, uh, can draw the pipe. And then if we know the, uh, the source of water will be here, the next pipe would of course go. Something from here. Maybe in this direction and to offload that one side, maybe it will go like this. So, uh, when you have your, uh, piping, you set up the manifold, the better place, I think near the source or somewhere near, so now you're attached to the manifold. You can do it in many ways, but I think the schematic way is better because you don't care. You understand where you will dig also.  Andy: Yeah. And it sounds like the idea for this is a quick sketch. That's a great presentation. That also shows the crew, which sprinklers are going together on the same zone, where approximately the pipes are going, but it's not meant to give you. Like all the exact materials and the exact pipe and the friction loss from this point to that point and all of that. It's a, it's a quick sketch, which is actually really helpful because most of the like engineered software out there, although it can be easy to use, there's a lot [00:20:00] more involved, so it doesn't become quick and easy. You may get potentially better engineering results. But it's not quick and easy for this purpose.  Philiph: Definitely. Yes. It, uh, will automate something, but not everything that, uh, that we want, but we are moving into this direction. Maybe the one day we have more, uh, You know, past and more precise, uh, system, but, uh, currently it works like this  Andy: and you should But this is actually okay. I mean, really you could take this and generate a pretty accurate, um, not full materialist, but bid based on some other input. So somebody wanted to take this and then generate a price quote. You know, this would be enough, I think, to get that started.  Theo: Yes, we are able, we are able to create a complete, uh, material list out of these, and we are now in a, uh, an area for private people, for private lawn, for private yards. Philiph: Residential, yeah,  Theo: residential area. And the friction losses during the pipe, it's not so necessary in the smaller cases of gardens. If you are going on golf courses, friction losses are definitely important, but on small private yards, it's not so not so important.  Andy: And it just depends because it can be if somebody uses the wrong size pipe, right? If they use three quarter inch pipe everywhere and they don't realize what the friction loss is. And because a lot of homes in the U S don't all. could have low pressure to start. So somebody has low pressure to start and they don't want to purchase a pump, then they need to carefully consider pipe size because they're trying to, you know, conserve pressure, I guess. Philiph: I will show you this a little bit later, but what I want to show you now is the, how we calculate the pipe diameter. So, uh, here is now Get some information about the diameter the direction of the flow and velocity of the of your flow so for [00:22:00] example It calculated that we need These diameters of pipe and this will be the speed inside and this will be the flow. Andy: Okay. So it says four inch, then we need to go to two inch, three inch, two inch, an inch and a half. Yeah. If you want. Yes. Or, or you could just stay at two inch cause a bigger pipe is fine. You don't have to go down, but sometimes, sometimes contractors don't downsize cause then they need a whole bunch of other fittings. So they'll just use whatever the largest pipe is all the way to the end, even though it costs more money, it's just easier.  Philiph: Now we have, uh, the basic system set up here. So let's continue with, uh, the basic, uh, controller with the wiring. You of course, making the wiring, uh, here in the Erisk Edge. So it, Yeah,  Andy: wiring is not something that's typically included on an irrigation drawing. Yeah.  Philiph: Um, on a drawing, you can, uh, save everything you need because this is like design, uh, step. And when, uh, then you finish with this. For example, we've made a basic design, then we switch to layouts. Layouts will hold as many, uh,  Andy: Oh, layout is like your, your, uh, planned, uh, page.  Philiph: Yes, like, uh, viewports of your, uh, draw. So you can... Uh, choose what you want to show on viewport, uh, Will that put a scale  Andy: in there? Um, yes.  Philiph: Okay. Yeah. The scale, of course, we can set, uh, for example, uh, one inch or it's one foot or, uh, Yeah, like one inch in 10, five. Let it be five for our scale. It will be good. Okay. And then you choose your, uh, sizes of everything of texts. And, uh, you say,  Andy: Gosh, I'm really thinking that, um, if you could, first of all, this is fantastic for the purpose of quick and easy presentation, you know, a drawing, it's good enough for the guys to know what they're going to [00:24:00] do and for the client to know what they're going to get. Uh, if there was a way to layer this on top of Google Earth or bring it in where you could just type in the address of the client. Do this remotely. You don't even need to visit the site. You could have a couple conditions and you could probably sell the system without visiting the site. At, at the end  Theo: you could, yes. Um, depends on the quality of the mapping service, of course, uh, Google, Google maps. It's in Germany. It's not so nice. So we have, it depends on  Andy: the tree cover and stuff. And again, this is like, you could say, Hey, here's what it could. Here's what it looks like it's going to be. Here's a couple unknowns, you know, Hey, we don't know if you have an extra flower bed. So you could ask a few questions to help clarify at least get it in the ballpark. And you could probably double the amount of quotes that a contractor could put out there if they don't have to travel to each site to wow the customer, get them to buy in. And then you have a. kickoff meeting with the client, go over it, see how close it is, then find out if there's anything that might be missing and how that might change the scope, if at all.  Theo: Definitely. You can work in this way. Yeah. For a first quote, you can do it in exactly this way. At the end, we also implement a service that the homeowner can prepare the planning for yourself. So you have the, we have the ErieSketch design studio. That's a smaller version of the ErieSketch professional tool that homeowners can upload their own satellite photo or their own sketch or their own drawing. And Uh, send it to you to, uh, asking for, for, for, or for, for  Philiph: irrigation. Yeah. You create the design, uh, link that anyone can access even without having some, uh, Eurosketch account. And, uh, this link. We'll open the Erisk edge, uh, with another tabs. It [00:26:00] will only be the drawer where you place your loan, your irrigated zone, not irrigated zone, whereas your controller will be located sensor, location of water source. And then you. Uh, make a quick survey with a project name, with your bucket test, for example, or with your climate conditions, or you cannot. And you can  Andy: even say like, upload a picture of your water source. I want to see the pipe where it comes in, in your basement. You need to upload that picture, right? I want so that it's like you're being there and people with their phone can just snap a picture.  Philiph: That's fair. Yeah. Well, but it's in development  Andy: now. Yeah. Well, I'm just saying I can make my own form, you know, that I could get the project information from clients. That's great.  Philiph: Yes. That's, uh, you, you inspiring us to speed up the development of this feature. Yeah.  Andy: So yeah. Now, uh, would this be, so it's interesting too, is because it's web based, it means there's a lot you can do with it or cloud with, is this something that, um, like, could I embed this? I guess I could just do like, um, A window, like a frame, iframe. Could I embed this in my website? So customers coming to sprinkler supply store could design their own system and not even necessarily, well, maybe they would know it's Errorsketch, but just beyond all on my domain.  Philiph: No, we, we are not restricting from this. So you can embed these in, uh, iframe of course on your website. So that's not a problem. You just provide this link and it's, uh, embeddable. You don't need to do anything but just type a code that's iframe and it will open.  Andy: So anyone could come to Sprinkler Supply Store and design their own system. Why  Philiph: not? That's great. And, uh, you create as many links as you want and, uh, for example, track there, uh, from the other, uh, places of your website or from other platforms, uh, that you need. So, for example, you place it on Instagram, this link, or in your, on your website within, within an iframe and, uh, you [00:28:00] can, uh, Uh, you, then you get the requests that's on up to you, up to the contractor who's using this design. Yeah.  Andy: So you've got rotors and sprays and different nozzles. How does this software handle drip irrigation?  Philiph: Uh, drip irrigation is all, uh, also handed, handled, and, uh, you can choose between the 16 and 17 millimeter drip. Uh, you have, uh, every, uh, drip line we had on the market, but not maybe everything, but from main, uh, uh. Andy: And sometimes it really, you know, it doesn't even need the brand because if somebody knows they're going to use a 0. 6 by 18 inch spacing. You know, it doesn't matter what the brand is because it's 0. 6 by 18. The math is the same regardless of the brand.  Philiph: So, uh, we, we also have the feature with, uh, to cover some drip area dripped. Uh, for example, you check the, your preferred, uh, drip line here, and then you draw up something, some area, some perimeter. And before you finish, you can, uh, set the step of the, of your, uh, future, future. Lines. And the angle? And then when you finish, uh, your drip line will be, uh, created and you can see the water flow. So it's 3. 5 GPM, the length, total length of the pipes. Uh, and then you connect it to the water source with the same type, but with a special drip start, uh, drip start, uh, node. It's it can contain anything you want, like the tap, the,  Andy: yeah, I just think, uh, for And for contractors that are. Involved in the sales process, this is a fantastic tool. I mean, talk about a differentiator. No, no one's using it yet. Clients, they may not expect this, but they want a higher level of [00:30:00] technology to be used in the sales process. They don't want a back of the napkin sketch on a carbon copy quote form. You know, this is, this is amazing. And you could produce this in, you know, less than one hour. Philiph: Yes, we are. We produce in this online. So, uh, also you can. Create some sprinkler, uh, coloring and To show the zones where the zones are belonging, the drip line, everything, some information about this, so length and flow, precipitation, what is on the zone, so, uh, the covered area and so on. So you, you have your, even you can calculate the timing of the controller. Uh, because you have all the information needed,  Andy: uh, Oh, I see like a runtime to produce one inch of  Philiph: water. Yeah. Based on the water demand, based on the infiltration rate of the soil, you can set it up in the special windows.  Andy: So you also have a scheduling engine then it sounds like,  Philiph: yes, that's a calculated. Yeah. By, uh, so it gives out your time per run and daily consumption for the, for all your cycles  Andy: and runs. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. This is really what, um, This is really what our industry needs because we're still doing it more or less the way it's been done for the last 20 or 30 years, basically.  Philiph: Same, same in Europe and  Theo: the same in Europe. So most of the, uh, contractors don't plan by itself. They leave planning for big companies, which also provide parts and  Andy: they go to their distributor. And then they say, I need this. And then, and then not only does the contractor have to make multiple visits to the site, right? One visit to make the measurements, the second visit to produce, you know, to sell the proposal, if you will, then they have to go to their distributor and the distributor draws it with no guaranteeing that the contractor is even going to get the sale. So all this work is being done for no. no purpose. Um, and I've always been under the belief that a contractor should do their [00:32:00] own work, not use a supplier for anything other than purchasing parts because it's their drawing. They should be responsible for it. And this really does put the power into the hands of the contractor  Theo: and quality of drawing. It's much better if contractor is on the same location. Because when you, uh, discussing with your disproducer is also over email, over phone. So he's sitting maybe a hundred kilometers or a hundred miles away from you and he never sees the garden at itself. And it's always a better design if somebody was really there. Philiph: I don't  Andy: know. This is so great. My mind is, my mind has so many other things here because I'm looking at you take this list down. So let's say we're done. Boom. Now my question would be, how could I feed my pricing in here to generate a quote? Because I could give you a feed, you know, with all the exact pricing or, or different libraries. And then the user could say, no, no, no, show me, is there another option that would automatically change these parts to, to be 10% less?  Philiph: That's what we deliver. Of course, the, we were thinking on this and we are, uh, created the, another piece of software that is named Iris Seller. And, uh. IrisCache is drawing, and IrisSeller is for selling. So, uh, when you have your setup in IrisCache, you can, uh, easily, uh, create it into your outlay with only your, uh, real life, uh, goods and, uh, stock. So that's, uh, I will show you how it work. I, I see that you are interested in this, so that's why I will, uh, take time. Yeah,  Andy: no, and I'm, uh, and it's interesting because I think people are afraid This so they're not, no one's doing it, but this is what needs to be done. And it basically becomes a marketplace, right? Where a, if a contractor uses your tool, number one, they can get a price for a Rainbird or Hunter or whatever dynamically they want right at [00:34:00] that moment. And then they could say. So, show me the price from site one, show me the price from Ewing, show me the price from Horizon, show me the price from sprinklersupplystore. com. Let me get a real live marketplace, you know, pricing on this material. Yeah.  Philiph: To compare and choose the best options.  Andy: Yeah. And again, if it's just showing up in your doorstep and it's delivered, the supplier becomes less relevant because you're doing the work. You're doing the value, you know, and they're just buying it and it ships in a box. Philiph: Of course. You are free to  Theo: choose what you want, where you  Andy: get it from. Yeah, and then the, and then the client, you know, if they say, Hey, is there any way, you know, we could, or how could we take like 10% off this price? You know, I had a budget of 4, 500, but this came in at 5, 000. Then the contractor can say, you know what, let me go through and see if there's any parts we could swap out that wouldn't affect the integrity of the system. And then rerun the quote, like in real time, not have to go back to the supplier, make five phone calls, right?  Philiph: Welcome to E Risk Etch. Yeah, that's cool that we are trying to do the same that you're saying. And, uh, yeah, I'm really proud now of it.  Andy: Because yeah, because somebody's got to poke the bear. There's too many big bears in this industry controlling the entire supply chain. From a couple of big distributors and a couple of big manufacturers. And it's time that somebody, you know, shook up the snow globe  Philiph: should come into the deal. Yeah. So, uh, for a manifold, uh, you can set up the valves there.  Andy: Yeah, and I mean really, sorry to interrupt you, really if you had, um, one way of, um, providing labor is to do a like per sprinkler, let's say it's 15 minutes per sprinkler and it, you know, how long is it per foot of one inch pipe, inch and a half, two inch pipe. If you could get your labor factors, which is, which are known. You can get your labor factors per [00:36:00] piece. Then you just put it on that quote and you can calculate out the installed price that like, and I have some of this data, you know, and then you got the installed price.  Theo: We have,  Philiph: we have. Well, why do, uh, why he knows how Eriskitch works? Yeah. Did you  Andy: tell him? Interesting. No, I've just been, it's what, what happens when you. I mean, basically 20 years ago, my buddy and I had an Excel sheet that did all this and every part had a price. And at the end you get your costs and then you can figure out what kind of margin you want to cover your overhead, but it's just. Database info. Super.  Philiph: That's what we really created. And this irrigation equipment configuration is just the beginning. Uh, here you set the, uh, most, uh, crucial parts of your system. It's like nozzles, uh, the drip pipe connections and valve manifolds, automation. Uh, you also have here the main pipe, a lateral pipe with, uh, they are fittings, uh, elbows, tees, crosses, whatever you need, uh, that, uh, end caps, if they are, they are here. Also the wiring, wiring calculation is, uh, another thing that, uh, you need to understand how you calculate, uh, your wiring because someone used cables, uh, multi cord cables. Someone used wires. And,  Andy: uh, the reason we used to do, but it was like half the number of zones times the length of the main line or something like that. It was  Philiph: just like, uh, yeah, multiplicative outlay, but here you, whether you can calculate it, uh, on your own or you can, uh, give every sketch opportunity to do this. So, uh, if you get used to it, you will be, uh, more, uh, more free to make any kind of assumptions. So. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, this step is finished. So here you have two options, whether you want to give a list to someone to calculate you the stock, uh, and [00:38:00] to give the, um, proposal for the materials list and, uh, to pay for, or you can go a way that we call iris seller. And when you have your stock or when you have, um, Your distributor that you are bound to and he has his stock in the Erie sketch system You can easily turn this everything out in the in your outlay. That is very configured with your own elements and Okay, let's switch to it and I will  Andy: show you how yeah. Yeah. I mean again, I think if even just If it didn't, you don't even have to put the price of the labor, just having labor hours in here would be helpful so that a contractor that's using it could look and say, okay, I see here that's 30 labor hours, you know, so if I bring a four man crew, I can do that in one day. Right? Or, or they can just break it down by, by labor hours and then if they know what they pay their laborers and they know what kind of margin they need on the labor, they can calculate their own, you know, labor price, but the labor time would be really valuable.  Philiph: I think, um, that labor, uh, times can be calculated based on amount of work, yes. Amount of sprinklers. Yeah.  Andy: And then you could have to say, okay, are we pulling this pipe? Are we trenching? Is this sand? Is this clay? There are things that affect. that, but, but it's nothing that you can't, you know, uh, build around. So,  Philiph: uh, here we, uh, uh, went this way. We provide this, um, feature is adding the price list and you can create your personal price list, or you can share your prices, price list, and, uh, become a like kind of distributor in terms of Erisk Edge, for example, we have on the. Hold on,  Andy: let me stop you. So I could take a price list, put it on Eurosketch and make it public? Yes. Oh,  Philiph: badass. That's what I'm talking about. Okay. So you can create your own price and share it. Yes. And ideally,  Andy: I could tie [00:40:00] you in on API and it could generate the order on my website. Why not? And then you can make a commission, you know, like Instacart 10% commission. Philiph: Things are increasing. Yeah. This speed. And yeah, we will think on this, everything step by step. I would just want you to show that, um, what we've developed by the moment and, um, how it, how it give you the ability to, um, output your data and how it's connected with the  Andy: project. That's why I'm just happy that you're thinking bigger. You know, you, you've, obviously as an entrepreneur, sometimes you just keep thinking, right? You're like, Oh, and if we did this, then we could do that. And if we did that, then we could do this other thing. And it just keeps going. And that's important because the schedule by itself that has some value, but if you can tie it all the way through the supply chain and the market and the end user and get them all together, now you've really. Got something.  Philiph: So, yes, I agree with you totally. So that's, that's our idea. And so, uh, it's, uh, I showed you how fast and how easy the changes are made to the outlay. So you just change something in the project and when you set up everything, you have a freedom to make fast recalculation of this stuff. And when you have everything, everything prepared for this, like pricelist from your beloved distributor, who are you working with and your calculations of labors, you are very fast with this outlay. So it takes how money, how much time till it takes for you to make this kind of cycle. The standard small one  Theo: 30 minutes. Yeah.  Andy: Once it's all, once you do the work and you enter it all in it, it's all gonna be done at the time you do the drawing ? Yes. Yeah,  Philiph: that's fair. But you will take time to attach proper prices, uh, select them from your list, and that's all. I think it's like five minutes for the outlay. Yeah. [00:42:00] So, yeah. That's what we showed in short story.  Andy: Very cool. Well, uh, this is great. I think I want to, I want to experiment with it, run, you know, do some, do some real live drawing with it and then, uh, see how to embed it on, on the website. So if we have any customers at sprinkler supply store that want to design their own system, then we can direct them there. Maybe I could like, um, make a little video that shows them how to use it and, um, see how we can use it to support our customers. Yeah. I  Philiph: think the first thing is what we need to make all internals work, internal work, preparing the price list from your stock, uh, creating them in Erisk Edge. Uh, and then when you have a request, we have to be very fast by, uh, processing it with your price list and your labor's work, but, uh, we, of course we don't show to the customer, everything that is internal and we can show just, uh, Amount of, uh, the price for the, uh, equipment and one price for the labors, for example, how much it will be cost. But you know that this price is very precise because you took time to calculate, to prepare all these prices and you can rely on it. That's the case when you risk it. Yeah.  Andy: Yeah. Fantastic. Cool. All right. Well, I will, uh, you know, right now we just got some other things happening, but I want, I'm very excited by this. And like I said, I, I mostly excited because you guys thought you thought further than just the design and, and I don't know why, uh, other existing companies aren't, aren't Doing this because it's something that, um, I, I, in a weird way predicted like many years ago that why doesn't the irrigation design software, they know all the parts and pieces, they're just missing the pricing and then they're just missing the labor and they could take more of a bite out of the service that they're the value that they're adding and [00:44:00] therefore charge additional fees. Okay. Do you want to include pricing that has another plan? Do you want to include labor that has another plan? ?  Philiph: Yes. That's what we are working, uh, with because, uh, we are in one person, the developer, and uh, the user. Uh, that's,  Andy: uh, the main thing. That's amazing. You guys have built all this. It's a lot. I, I know how much work this is and it you, this is a lot of work. Philiph: Yes. And we are making this, uh, very live and. We are continuing with this work, improving the Erie sketch almost every day. We are adding some equipment and we have also the future plans for the second version and so many, uh, so many things. And I'm  Andy: going to buy the Mosier. Um, and I also have, uh, I can't remember the name of it. It's the, it's the wheel that you can put your iPhone on and you can, so it's got a GPS file. Oh, that was my question. What file are you looking for to import? What type of a file?  Philiph: Uh, for Mosher, it's CSV file. It's a standard export of the Mosher, uh, layered export. It's, uh, previously it named CSV plus plus. So it's  Andy: not a GPX or a GPS file.  Philiph: No, uh, actually it's just a set of coordinates, it's like X, Y, Z coordinates, columns, and the points of that, uh, as a rows, you just, uh, input, uh, uh, you can see that, uh, you can generate. From any type of software, uh,  Andy: yeah, I'm going to, um, get a Mosier and to do a real life demo, like, uh, measure out a house, put it in here and, and use the software. I think that'd be fantastic. Um, it also would be some good content. If I can figure out how to turn that into a YouTube video, you know, how to design, you know, an irrigation system in less than 30 minutes.  Philiph: Yes, that's the point. We also have this, uh, like promo or maybe you saw this on the website. [00:46:00] It's, uh, do you see this? Do you hear the sound or not? No, it's okay though. Oh, then I will share you in the chat and you can see it when you have time. So it's like a small explanation of what we have here. I don't know. I don't see the chat actually.  Andy: That's okay. I can look, I can look at it on your website.  Philiph: Yeah. Okay. Okay. It's on the main page. So, uh, that's what, what I was talking about is, uh, I don't remember what I was talking about. I don't know,  Theo: but I have some other question, maybe directly to Andy for us. It's interesting. I think so. As you know, as you recognize the set, uh, Philip come from Russia. At the moment, he's located in Germany. He's, uh, come, uh, one year ago to Germany. Now we are both at the same place in Germany and, uh, we develop Irisketch and, uh, wanted to start, of course, uh, to spread Irisketch over the whole world. So we are now at the moment strong in Russia, of course, and we are strong in Germany. With distribution of our software. And of course, US market is the main goal of us to reach, um, all, uh, contractors from your market. But what we are missing is a partner at the US market at the moment. And especially somebody which really knows how the market works in the US.  Philiph: So, um,  Theo: we think we know, but it's better if you can explain what to say. U. S. irrigation market on who is contractor, what did contractor actually do? You just told us that mostly nobody tried to design their own. Uh, when we look on websites of contractors, we only see something like renovation and retrofit systems, but  Philiph: nobody offers  Andy: new systems. Oh, [00:48:00] no, no, no, no. New is, um. Yeah. So let's see. Uh, I'd be happy to tell you everything I know about the U S market. Um, we would need, we need a little bit more time, but, um, there are generally two types of contractors install and service some do. And then each of those do a little crossover. So some contractors do only new install. and a little bit of service, and that's commercial. And some contractors do a lot of residential service and some install. And it's different on the West, the Western United States versus, let me take you off spotlight here, versus the Eastern United States. So the Western United States, most irrigation systems are drawn by a professional engineer. Or a  Theo: garden architect.  Andy: Uh huh. Uh, commercial, anyway. Commercial. Okay, yeah. And, uh, on the eastern United States, it's mostly contractor design build. And so contractors go to the distributor, the distributor draws it, uh, and maybe 20% of the time it's an engineer. So there's a difference between the East Coast and the West Coast. And then you have your distributors where there's like four or five really, really big distributors. And then there's a handful of smaller, you know, family owned businesses and the family owned businesses are now selling to larger businesses and the market is consolidating. Um, because it's maturing and, uh, from the contractor's perspective, there really aren't any national franchises. There's one growing called Conserva and they're probably, they're really like the only franchise. And this could be a good tool for a franchise, you know, because it would differentiate the franchise. So that is the thought that I have is, hey, that's a great opportunity because you sell it to a [00:50:00] franchise and then the franchise owner requires all of the franchisees to use the software and then they have access to it. Then they see all the like it's all It's all tied in. Um, and after that you  Philiph: have a small franchise. Yeah. Yeah.  Andy: You have small contractors all over the United States. Um, and that's part of the, the problem and the opportunity with irrigation. You don't need any education. You don't need any formal licenses other than whatever is required in your town or your state. Yet at the same time, that just means any old guy can throw some stuff in his truck and now he's an irrigation contractor and he comes in at a lower price. And a lot of the times, these contractors don't know how to compete against somebody who has a low price because they're not any, any, any value themselves. And so I try to really educate contractors to don't worry about price. Make sure you're the most professional. You show up on time. You, Like do everything right. And then you should be able to have a higher price system, right? It's obvious if it's one guy in a truck, his price should be less. So you don't have to compete against that. Um, and then you've got some landscapers that do irrigation. Right. So you have some landscape companies that also do irrigation and some landscape companies have landscape architects that could use this software and include it in their drawing. And in the U. S. we only have one company called Land FX. Land FX. Yes. They own the market now outside of people just using AutoCAD and  Philiph: some templates and what about Pro Contractor, uh, isn't used it in the terms of irrigation, uh, Pro Contractor Or you mean Land FX is a, uh, uh, uh,  Andy: complete. That's the largest irrigation software provider of, of, uh, irrigation drawing Land FX. Philiph: Land FX and Kamatsu Studio Pro Contractor is, uh,  Andy: [00:52:00] And their software is used by the largest engineers in the world. Great company. Very nice guys. I know Jeremiah, the owner pretty well. Um, but it's not something that you can just, uh, design in 30 minutes. It's not quick and easy.  Philiph: It's complicated and very precise. Andy: And it, yeah, it's very precise. And it sounds expensive. And it is expensive. Yep. Yes. But if you are working with engineers and architects and drawing big CAD drawings, that is the software to use. Yeah, so it's just land fx. com. Yeah,  Philiph: I've been there. I also Investigated about all the software  Andy: and they don't do anything that you're doing. There's no seller They really just stick in their wheelhouse because I think business is pretty good for them And they don't have the need necessarily to upset the applecart like to chase something new but in my opinion what you're building is really the direction that they They should be going. Um, you know, and then you have, you have some contenders like, uh, that are coming in from the business software, the business management software side of things like service Titan and aspire where contractors are using their software to run their business schedule, service calls, um, prepare quotes, you know, do invoicing and this stuff doesn't. Like land effects doesn't integrate but it could like yours is built for that because it's all it's all tied together So there's no reason that once the customer signs that Agreement that that design should flow right in to the business management software. They have all the parts and pieces and material Um,  Philiph: yeah. Really that's what we are thinking about is integration of the, uh, of the whole process of, uh, irrigation contractor, uh, starting from the [00:54:00] design and, uh, up to the main tenants. And, uh, also we are thinking on the how, uh, we can, uh, the, for the whole lifetime of the project, Uh, be helpful, be handy for the contractor because sometime you need to go to the site and check what's happening and you should know where it's all located. So it's like the working documentation on the project and the risk edge.  Andy: Yeah, yeah. And then my business, um, sprinkler supply store is, um, also I have a, uh, partnership with site one landscape supply. So they're an investor in Sprinkler Supply Store and I, let me see how to describe this. I think of Sprinkler Supply Store as a digital layer on top of wholesale distribution, really on top of site one. So they're sending me, um. Data every 15 minutes from 10 of their stores all over the United States. So when somebody places an order, if they're in Texas, I will have that fulfilled from the location in Texas. If they're in Florida, I'll have that filled from Florida. And then what we can do is also split orders in group order. So if not one single location has all the parts, we'll split it up to get it to the customer fast. But I could, I could drop ship out of like 50 of their locations. And so there's this real opportunity for like, for me to vend you the product data. And if somebody wants it, we can get it to them quickly because we built the stack, you know, the integration stack where site one directly. They're not set up for this yet. And  Philiph: interested, uh, how do you, uh, proceed the prices because you are providing the prices for a special, your customers and, uh, who should know these prices? Because if you put some price in the E Risk Edge, it becomes, uh, public. The  Andy: whole world. I'm, I'm kind of a believer in pricing transparency, right? We're kind of moving past the [00:56:00] days of this guy's price and this guy's price and this guy's price. I mean, maybe you could say like, Hey, here's a 10% discount or something, but I think that it really just needs to be. And right now the prices are somebody out there on the Internet is already selling that part for less. Of course. Somebody wants to take the time and search. They'll find it for less.  Philiph: Don't fancy it. But the question is how he delivers it, which services he provide and so on.  Andy: Yeah, and the bigger distributors, they still believe in pricing tiers. They don't want. That pricing transparency, because what it really means is everything has to drop a bit. Um, but that also means their overhead might have to drop a bit, but that's where the efficiency of what you're providing comes into play. Because if that contractor no longer knocks on their door for a design every week, then they don't need to provide that. So they should lower their price because they're not doing as much work. Philiph: Yeah,  Andy: so that's kind of why I think some of this could be done, not grassroots, but going to the biggest players, they're not going to be interested because it's too, it's a bit too disruptive for them yet. They don't even know how to like sell their own parts on the internet. Yeah. That's why we But because I ship through SiteOne, SiteOne just wants business, right? They, they know that orders land in their system automatically. There's no effort on them. So I get, I have really, really good pricing. So we have a doorway basically into, you know, I would love to figure out how I could sell 50 million of parts and, you know, just flows through the system, right? It's like, that's why you could take a transaction fee. Added on there service value added transaction fee or commission from me and I could do the same It's like we can be really competitive if if the system works and the user comes in and then it just flows through with little Input [00:58:00] then everything can be, you know streamlined  Philiph: Mm hmm without any intentions  Andy: Super  Philiph: anyway. Yeah, I just will Impressed how progressive your vision and uh, yeah, I think we met the wrong, the right guy we need.  Andy: Well, there's, you know, I'm only doing this cause no one else is cause there's not very many other people like you, there's really only, uh, you know, a handful of people I come across once in a while that, um, have any type of a vision other than like what's Just right in front of them. That's cool.  Philiph: Yeah. But we are at the start, we  Theo: all was with the same problem that we need a proper way to make design for irrigation. So, uh, we also do many time, many years irrigation. And, uh, from the start, I thought that we have to do design by ourself, not by this polluters. And, uh, in this case, I met Philip three years ago and start with. together with him to develop a resketch. And here we are. So our main goal is to bring irrigation design to contractors, not to the big players. Uh, we also had some discussions with the big players in Europe, also with big manufacturers like Hunter and Rainbird. And all what they're asking for was, okay, make a ErieSketch version of our products. So they want an ErieSketch version only with Hunter products. They want  Andy: exclusive, only put Rainbird on your stuff. I know. Exactly. That's part of the problem is that those guys want to control everything end to end. And they're not wrong, they used to be able to do that, but that's not what the future looks like. The future might not even look like making any money on their parts. It's like, it's a, the value is, is always, you know, moving and if guys want to use Rainbird, they should pick [01:00:00] Rainbird because not because they have to, not because it's the only one in this software. But  Philiph: because it's working the best way and the proper way. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The best way.  Theo: And we don't agree with them and we kick them out. Uh, we had many offers or we had offers of these big players and we, no, we don't want this. We want to bring irrigation design. To people to constructors,  Andy: especially if you're building a marketplace, which I think at the end of the day, you're kind of building, you know, that marketplace and the marketplace needs lots of suppliers, you know, and you need, of course, it's  Philiph: not every time that's that's centralized sources. Yeah, yeah,  Andy: yeah, um, on the supply. Yeah. And we're working on some, uh, since you guys are in Europe, there's, there's, you guys might know about the Laura technology,  Philiph: Laura. We have a solar solution from France. It uses Laura, uh, communication from in the field.  Andy: Yeah. So we're building, I've got a couple other partners on a startup that, um, basically building a Laura, uh, analytics, uh, platform so that contractors can add wireless sensors out into the landscape or the building and then control the irrigation system, you know, with, with that. And we've got some wireless valve equipment, but I think  Philiph: that. Valves. Do you have output relays for, to connect this  Andy: valves? Yeah. So wireless adapters, it can go right in the valve and you can go a mile or more. So I, we kind of see the future is actually, the future of irrigation is here. It's just not built and distributed yet, but there's no need for wires and there's no need for a controller. Yeah.  Philiph: Future will be no,  Theo: no need for water. Philiph: Yeah. The water. Yeah.  Andy: Can you tell me about your pricing fees? How do you guys charge for the system? Uh,  Philiph: for the [01:02:00] EuroSketch, it's a subscription type. Uh, we charge for the period of subscription. Uh, in Europe, it's 450, uh, in net, uh, Euros. So, and  Andy: that Euro is kind of one to one now for the U. S., almost, right? Almost.  Philiph: Yeah, it's almost the same, yeah. Four, 450 for the year? For 50s for the year and a bit more if you purchase by the monthly subscription.  Andy: Okay, and is that per company per user? How does  Philiph: that work? Uh, it now working for a user, so if this is a company and it has Uh, two or more, three seats, they can use it, uh, in, uh, but they will have the same workshop where, uh, the place where the projects are stored. So if they, uh, open one project simultaneously make changes, there will be an, uh, conflict in the saving. So, uh, I'm not, uh, restricting by the number of seats. Currently, but, uh, in future versions, I plan to do the licensing per seat, but now it's not needed because we need to grow now and to catch the market, uh, with our,  Andy: Yeah. You need people coming in. Right. And it's like, you know, I could even see there being like, um, yeah, it's 4. 50 a year, but maybe your first five sketches are free. So it's like you have a trial, but it never ends. You just can make five. Like if it takes you a month, or a year, or whatever the number is, two, one, ten, you know. Philiph: Our system is, works like this. We have a trial period of two weeks. It's almost full featured trial period. So you can every time renew your account or, uh, remove and create new one. So the guys are, uh, someone using this feature because they are creating and for 12, uh, two weeks, they have almost full functionality. But, uh, then they see that it was very handy tool and they are just buying it most of the time. So, uh, we have a very good conversion out of our old [01:04:00] registration. It's like, uh, 10 to 15% of. Purchases. So, uh, it's, it's normal conversion rate. So we have in Russia, we have now it's like 6, 000 accounts of contractors. So it's very big amount in Europe. It's, we are starting now to grow. It's almost thousand. We caught, I think I need to see the statistics. Yeah. I'm just  Andy: thinking too. It's like if, um, It's one thing if a contractor uses it and likes it. It's another thing if it helps them sell a project. So it's like, all right, how can we. And I'm thinking of what would it be like if I was trying to sell this? You're like, here it is. Go use this. And once you sell your first system, you'll be like, Oh shit, I got to pay for that. And add 10% to your price when you use this software and see what happens. So  Philiph: our, our,  Theo: um, way to market ErieSketch is that we are searching for represent each country in the world, or maybe each language area in the world. So at the moment in Europe, we have the, the German speaking. Uh, area, what I cover, we have some guys from Croatia, we have some guys for the Netherland, we have some guys from Lithuania and these guys helping us to develop EruSketch in case of languages, especially. So do translation, do, uh, tutorial videos and do the support after. Um, and for this work, they get a discount on the annual subscription for customers. So they sell it one time to the customer, so to the contractor, and they get discount on the, uh, subscription price and they get it each year, year by year by year.  Philiph: Yeah. So that's how we market. You're risking our, uh,  Andy: country. Yeah. How difficult is it to control the features that people have? Buy like, you know what they've paid for like is there is there [01:06:00] some super light version you could give to somebody that's great And it's just always free to just keep people coming in um  Philiph: We have the free version fully free version and it's perpetual. So you have you will have every time you're um, features like drawing, like drawing landscape, like drawing irrigation on top of it and even layouts. You will have one list of layout, but you don't have access to the outlay to the iris seller. That's the case of the easy version of free version, but every time you can. It's for a short period of time, switch on the paid version for a month, make everything needed with your project that you created on a free version. And then, uh, stop with the subscription. For example, when the season comes to the, some countries, they have a season for like three or four months. Yeah. That's what  Andy: it's like here too. And that's why I like the annual plan because the first question someone's going to say is, do I still have to pay in the winter? But when it's yearly, it's like, this is what it is.  Philiph: It's yearly. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's cheaper than if you purchase it by month or by, uh, so contractor will think, okay, well, maybe I will have some projects in the winter to work on and to create some designs or requests or,  Andy: uh, you know, do some marketing, you know, and kick out some designs and some proposals all winter  Philiph: long. Maybe you can provide to your customer and customer and say in the winter, your project will be cheaper and less.  Andy: And there's nothing wrong with it. I'm good. I'm thinking out loud with, um, The contractor doesn't have to give this away for free, right? To me, the drawing's worth a minimum 100. So either they charge, either using it to maintain the highest price in the market or, you know, they're being competitive, but then right away they say, would you like a drawing like this upon completion? And they're, Oh, I absolutely want that. Okay, cool. It's just a hundred bucks for that drawing that they make their money, you know, easily. [01:08:00]  Philiph: Yes. And it depends on what kind of information they share with in this project, because they can, uh, for example, uh, hide every pipe and just show the sprinklers or hide, uh, I don't know, uh, the, how the wiring manifolds and say, this is the free. project, just see, uh, and decide if you want more, uh, detailed project, pay for it. And that's how it works in Russia because, uh, we have a bunch of contractors that provide free, uh, designs and that's, uh, the very big sheet in this case, because they are first, they dumped the price to the almost the lowest price for the project. And now they are providing them for free. And, um, that's the big case when the big players now. Also have to lower the prices for the design. So it's like a chain reaction. I don't know how it's, how it's named. So now we are thinking in Russia about association and they are created some, uh, two associations of irrigators that are now. We'll take it into control or something. I don't know. I heard that in the U. S. there's an irrigation association that is licensing everyone.  Andy: Well, they don't have any licensing, right? I mean, they have certifications, but it doesn't mean anything to anyone. Uh  Philiph: huh. So it's not really a licensing, so you  Andy: can work without it. doesn't, they might care, they might not. It's just a way, it's important, don't get me wrong, and it's the education and the training, but It's not required by any state. Uh, I shouldn't say that there might be a couple jurisdictions where they use that, but, but not, not really. And that's part of the problem is it's more like just saying, well, I'm smarter than you because I'm certified in this and you're not. And that guy's like, well, my business is twice as big as yours and I don't have that certification. So  Philiph: yeah, I thought it's more strict there [01:10:00] than, than we  Andy: have, but no, it's more strict on a backflow. Some places where the plumbing union is, uh, strong, you know, the irrigation contractors can't put in backflows. Or the contractor has to have a certified plumber at their compan

In this episode, Andy chats with Kevin Williams an expert in ChatGPT and A.I. ========== References: www.SprinklerNerd.com/inkworks www.InkWorks.ai ========== Kevin: You know, it's not going to be AI that replaces you as the employee or, or supplants you, your company. It's going to be a company that knows how to use AI or a person who knows how to use AI that's going to disrupt things. Andy: Hello my friends. This is Andy. Welcome to episode 129. Of the Sprinkler Nerd Show, where it's my job to speak with world-class water and technology innovators from all walks of life so that it may inspire you and your business. My guest today is Kevin Williams. Who is Kevin Williams? Kevin has been featured in Inc.Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times, and even as a Shark Tank business. Before starting his current company, www.inkworks.ai, Kevin was the former operating partner and CEO of www.balls.co. And before that, Kevin was the founder and CEO of Brush Hero, which is the product you may have seen on shark tank. Our conversation today will be focused on AI tools like Chat GPT, and how you can implement these tools in your business. So with that, Kevin, welcome to the show.  Kevin: Thanks so much for having me, Andy.  Andy: I cannot wait to talk about AI and how service businesses, contractors, irrigators, and landscapers can learn a little bit from you, who has spent a lot of time, uh, really becoming an expert in this field. And I think that before we jump into that, I'd like to ask how you got your start in business and as an entrepreneur.  Kevin: It's, it's funny. I actually come from a family of entrepreneurs ever since I was about 10 or 12. My family was traveling all over the country with various business ideas and it was just part of the fabric of my life. Kevin: Sadly, that story doesn't actually end particularly well. So sometimes I, I, I glib about it that I come from a family of failed entrepreneurs because in a period in my adolescence, my parents lost their business, they lost their house. They lost their marriage, like all of this horrible stuff. So young Kevin decides that a good idea is to not be an entrepreneur and instead go be a chemist. Kevin: Well, fates have a way of, uh, of messing with plans like that. Um, I went on the straight and narrow path. I did a bunch of interesting stuff and I ended up at pretty good business school. And in business school, I entered a business plan competition just as a part of a, like an elective entrepreneurship class. Kevin: And I won. And I won a bunch of money that came along with it for seed funding. Um, so I ended up starting my first business having done everything in my power not to be an entrepreneur. I was like, oh heck, here's an opportunity. I'm just going to take a left turn in my life and chase this now. Um, that business didn't necessarily go anywhere, but it introduced me to the angel and venture community in my town in Washington DC and uh I ended up operating businesses for a high net worth, uh, individuals for a bunch of years and my own entrepreneurial journey kicked in again, where I saw that there was just so much waste in a lot of startup companies that people really didn't know how to demonstrate. Kevin: What we marketers would call product market fit, and instead they just dump bucket loads of money into things trying to prove a concept. Uh, and when I saw the rise of social media, I saw an opportunity to rapidly test concepts, um, without necessarily spending a lot of money. And that pivoted into a whole series of businesses where I would either license or buy intellectual property. Kevin: And my dirty little secret was that when a patent was pitched to me, I could go out onto social media and test some concept around that product. I could throw a bunch of traffic at it, see if anybody cared. If people cared about the idea, then I would license the patent and then I would already know that I could get on to first base with the product. Kevin: Was it going to be a home run? Who knows, but I could get on to first base. So that led to the Brush Hero product, which I had licensed. I'd licensed the underlying IP from a gentleman in the UK, um, and several other patents in homewares and kitchenwares. Uh, I sold, um, or I, yeah, I exited Brush Hero in about 2019. Kevin: And, um, then I ended up running, uh, a large international brand. Usually I don't say, but yes, it was Balls. co.  Andy: Fuck it, you can say it on this channel, on this show.  Kevin: Yes, I was a manscaper. Um, so Balls was the largest, uh, manscaping company in Europe. Uh, you can probably already tell I'm not the guy who tells Balls jokes all day. Kevin: So it was, it was pretty fun to dive into a brand like that. British sensibility, really cheeky humor. And, um, our goal was to drive it into, uh, the U S with that sort of humor. Um, the realities of running a UK European based business from the West coast of the U S not so great. A lot of early mornings, a lot of late nights. Kevin: So, mm-hmm. , in part when I saw just the I I, I, I like to think that I immediately saw the opportunities that generative AI would represent when G P T launched in November of last year, and I left and dove feet first into generative AI and practical applications of it. Um, And I've been rooting around for business models in my M. Kevin: O. You know, test some ideas, test a lot of different things, um, to see what might take root. And from there, ink works is one of several different products, projects that I'm working on, um, as well as doing executive coaching and executive coaching oriented around a I capacity development within organizations. Kevin: Because one challenge of all of this Is that coming up with a one size fits all solution just isn't practical. So business leaders need to develop a framework around the way that they think about AI and how they're going to safely lever it in their business. Um, as opposed to just looking for a magic bullet type. Kevin: Platform that they can just buy. That's going to solve all of their problems. Um, that's going to be very interesting to, to, to see how that develops. And it's been fun to, to, to work with other business leaders to try and identify how their particular business, be it, you know, in landscaping or direct consumer or. Kevin: Business to business SAS type stuff. Well, how can they actually deploy this stuff right away to make changes in their business? Because, you know, the, the adage has become. You know, it's not going to be AI that, that replaces you as the employee or, or supplants you, your company. It's going to be a company that knows how to use AI or a person who knows how to use AI that's going to disrupt things. Andy: I love that. So there's a couple takeaways. I'm going to start with the last thing you said, because it reminds me of a great expression that I can't remember who the author is, but I use it all the time. And that is the company that kills you will look nothing like you. So when you said AI may not replace the person, it's going to be a company that knows how to use AI that becomes your competitor. Andy: That's a great example of another company that It looks nothing like you, but could end up killing your business and you were running balls. co and this is not the right time to talk about balls. co, but we don't actually talk about a lot of balls in this industry. We do talk about a lot of nipples though. Andy: There are many different types of nipples in the irrigation industry, believe it or not. So I'm just going to, I'm just going to put that out there inside joke for those that are listening. We don't talk about balls, but we like to talk about nipples, talk about  Kevin: turf.  Andy: And turf. Yep. Totally. You can talk about turf. Andy: There's a lot to, a lot to play with there. Not last week. It's been probably three weeks now. Kevin and I both went to a conference. I would say that's just for shark tank companies, just for those who have. been on Shark Tank, whether it aired or whether it was just taped, because we know that most of the businesses that tape don't actually go to air. Andy: So we were both at the conference, and that's when I was learning about what you were doing in the AI space, because Kevin was actually presenting at the conference. And I thought this would be great, Kevin, to have you come and share some of your Uh, real practical world experience with AI, you know, and how you are coaching people to use it, some of the value that it has, and maybe even some of the best practices or things you should do first, second, third, or even how do you optimize the responses of, let's say, chat GPT versus a beginner that just goes in and asks it a basic question. Andy: So very, very excited, and especially because this industry is tends to lag behind.  Kevin: So first, just to back up, I we were sort of operating on the assumption that everybody knows what this is, and I'm pretty sure everybody has at least heard of it at this point. That is this magic machine that can that you can talk to, and it can it can come up with responses. Kevin: Um, but it is actually a success story. That's it's one of those overnight successes. That's eight years in the making that billions and billions of dollars has been poured into what are called neural networks that allow So Uh, highly abstract patterns to to interact with each other such that the magic machine can output based on a predictive model. Kevin: What might come next from a thought? So that's essentially what it's doing. It's predicting from the sum of the human Internet knowledge. What? The next likely thought can be, and it is absolutely amazing what it can do, but the underlying fundamentals of neural networks have been around for a long time. Kevin: The novelty and what was just completely mind blowing for most of us was the Interaction, the interactive effect. Like if you leave a bunch of wonky people together who are studying neural networks, they know how neural networks work. They don't need this chat functionality. What the chat functionality did is it made it much more accessible for we mere mortals to be able to lever these tools, um, on on even on a basic level, as opposed to going through a whole machine learning type process. Kevin: So These are predictive models. They're taking the sum of human knowledge and they are outputting the next likely. So the first thing to understand about them is that They don't necessarily know or care if anything is particularly accurate. So, this is what you hear about in terms of hallucinations. And hallucinations are just wrong facts. Kevin: Like, the AI is not particularly good with facts. It's very good at expressing A dubious fact in a very convincing way, which should be a giant red flag for most of us who produce any sort of content that particularly in a subject matter that's relatively technical like what you guys are talking about, um, it could easily. Kevin: It could easily just lie to you. So the first thing that I tell people from a, from a mindset perspective is that you need to calibrate what you're doing with the AI based on who you are and what you know, so picture like a Venn diagram, you've got this. One circle, that's the size of my house, that is the sum total of human knowledge. Kevin: And then you have this intersecting circle that's much smaller, which is the sum total of who you are and what you know and what you know about irrigation and, uh, and lawn care and everything else. Right? And the intersection of those two circles is where the power really lies. So If you, the farther you drift away from that, the more likely you are to get into dangerous territory. Kevin: So, I know a lot about digital marketing. I know a lot about business operations and such. That is a core of who I am. But, if I drift away and I start talking with the AI about neuropsychology, I might get interesting results, but I have no way of calibrating whether or not those results are actually useful or, or practical or not. Kevin: I'm just leaving it to the AI. So when you say  Andy: calibrate, what does, what does that mean? What does calibrate mean? So  Kevin: it's you know what you know. So imagine, you know, most of us have have businesses that are large enough that you have developing staff like there. There are other people that are involved in the business and you you take, let's just say a new sales guy and You, The way If you're the senior sales guy or you're the business owner, you might tell the sales guy to go off and do X, Y, and Z. Kevin: And then you're going to look at the output and you're going to, you're going to coach them, you're going to push them towards an output that you know is going to work in because you have this expertise in the knowledge. It's the same as true for the AI. The AI doesn't necessarily know what it's talking about, but if you were to look at the output. Kevin: Your art as a business person and just as an individual is being able to identify the value in that output. And if it's something you don't know anything about, that's going to be really hard to do. So if you're, if you're looking at, at creating something that's entirely new that you don't know anything about, there are ways to use AI that you can do that. Kevin: But it's not as effective as Amplifying things that you already do know. So in a lot of organizations, let's just take a lawyer, for example, like you could you could call a lawyer and say, Hey, I need to set up a trust document and whatever. And right now the M. O. would be that lawyer would probably record the call or take notes on the call. Kevin: They would go to their associate. Their associate would look through their templates about it. Trust. They'd adapt it to Wyoming. They put it back to the senior attorney who would then approve it, edit it, give it red lines, hand it back to the guy or gal and then process it and then finalize it and then send it out because that senior attorney really knows their stuff or you hope they really know their stuff. Kevin: They can do that. That is their art. That is their job. That is their profession. But now you can bypass all of that, that associates job. Not so good for the associate, right? But you could output that document and be able to read it and have it done in 15 seconds, but you can't abdicate your professionalism and your art. Kevin: You can't just trust it. You're going to get 80% of the way there in 15 seconds, but that last 20% of editing and clarifying and redlining, um, you still own that at least at the moment. So. The lawyer knows a lot about law. The business guy has actually read a ton of contracts, right? Like, I've probably read a thousand contracts in my career. Kevin: I'm not a lawyer. I happen to be married to one. But, I... Not a lawyer, but if I need to create a new contract I can actually get 90% of the way there So let's just say 70% of the way there Because I know how contracts are written right and I can read it and I can interpret Okay, this indemnification clause makes sense to me The smart move is to then send it on to the lawyer, but I didn't have to spend the 500 for him to draft the first version. Kevin: I just need to spend the 250 for him to take a pass at it at the other side, because I know enough to be dangerous. Now, if it were to get into case law, statutes, regulations, things like that, it could easily lie to you, and that's out of my realm. Like the lawyer might recognize that that case isn't a real case or that that statute isn't accurate, but dang, if the AI isn't going to be very, very compelling in its, it's sort of its defense of its own facts that it's putting forward, but that's the. Andy: So, so would it be. Would it be safe to say that an attorney who uses Chet GPT, if Chet GPT or the AI can do the 70% as you describe, but because they're the expert in that field, they can review that 30% and get it right. So that if it's lying, they can correct it because they have the expert knowledge in that core business. Kevin: Exactly, exactly. And this is where I like to focus when I'm talking to people about it. There's a lot of water is wet out there. Oh, you can just. Have it write a giant blog post for you. Okay. That's cool. You know, it's cool to watch it do its output. It's like, it's sort of mind blowing if you haven't seen it by all means, totally go sign up and see that because it's really cool, but that doesn't allow you to abdicate from your art and your expertise. Kevin: So, you know, your audience knows a lot about lawn care and it like, like you can have it create a blog post about certain patterns of irrigation and you're going to be able to decide whether or not those are accurate or not. But if you want to reach into topics that you don't know much about, even if they're close to you, you can. Kevin: But you have to have either some sort of validation mechanism such that you can determine whether it's accurate or not, um, or not care, so. Because  Andy: then if somebody who is an expert in that category reads it, they may think, Oh my gosh, what is Kevin talking about here? He doesn't know what he's talking about. Andy: This is not accurate.  Kevin: Exactly. Like imagine, you know, I, as I understand it, that, uh, you know, grass varietals change by different continents and there's expertise in South America and they're, you know, sprinkler nerds in South America and like you pontificating about, you know, Argentine varieties of. Kevin: Bermuda grass, like that person is going to be able to smell a rat because that's their, their expertise. And worse, this is sort of meta as there's an industrial scale opportunity for content production. If all of us. I'm not going to get noble about this, but like if all of us are out there producing bad content, the AIs will be trained on the bad content. Kevin: So there is going to be value. Is that the  Andy: garbage in garbage out analogy? Yes.  Kevin: Garbage in garbage out. And at some point it all reverts to the mean. So from the segment of your audience that is out there and doing direct to consumer type marketing, don't be, don't be tempted to do just. Industrial scale output. Kevin: Your art has to be producing new information from somewhere. But what AI can do is it can make some of that new information really accessible. Like there's a lot of geeky in this sort of field, right? And there's scholarly articles about soil density and all this other stuff. One really cool use of AI is to be able to contextualize something like a scholarly document and make it accessible to people who have expertise that can do something interesting to it. Kevin: So, you know, somebody comes out with a paper from the university of Florida, as far as water absorption rates, whatever it is, and you can then use the AI to simplify that overly complicated document to a way that it falls into that zone of expertise and art. And then you can actually. Add to the corpus of information that's out there on the web in an additive way because that paper was never really going to get found. Kevin: It was somebody's PhD thesis or whatever. But now you Andy can like actually make that accessible in a way that increases the store of human knowledge and from a Strategic perspective, I do suspect that, that, that brands, particularly in the internet who can truly add novel value are going to be rewarded by search engines, by advertising platforms, et cetera, and that those who simply put it out like high volume garbage are going to get severely punished. Kevin: And, and I'm  Andy: thinking that likely the level one knowledge. Which may address the most frequently asked questions about lawn care on the internet will probably be garbage in garbage out and stuff that everybody talks about. I love what you said about finding a scholarly article and what came to my mind is that there actually are scholarly articles from, I believe, University of Florida on, you know, lawn care and let's say soil moisture sensor technology. Andy: And my question would be, number one, Perhaps this would be a great training example for us to do live like, Hey, let's grab a couple articles and use that to produce some really awesome content using AI. And could we do that? You know, could we take an article of a research on soil moisture sensor, not right now about soil moisture sensor technology, real case studies and recreate it in a, in a, in a way that everybody could understand it simplified, but on a deep topic  Kevin: like that. Kevin: So this is, let's walk through the practical example. The example is yes, that would be really cool, right? So first you're going to find the article and then let's just be practical. First, if you're not paying for GPT, pay for it. It's 20 bucks a month and it gives you access to GPT 4, but more importantly, it gives you advanced access to advanced processing. Kevin: So the, the 3. 5 was the first model 4. 0 is where it is now. 4. 0 is roughly 10 times. It's more powerful as far as the level of connections. It's also slower, um, which can be a little bit agonizing in a demo because it writes really slowly. Um, but it allows you to contextualize. These are, these are all terms that are going to be so common in the next few years, but right now we're all kind of bending our heads around it that you have to set context. Kevin: Like, uh, I like this particular example, like you go, you stand at the top of a, of a building at, uh, you know, Times Square, you stand in the middle of Times Square and you say, what should I read? And people are going to have all kinds of opinions. They're going to have like, Oh, you should read the Bible. Kevin: You should read, you know, Tom Clancy. You should read, you know, the, the sprinkler digest of 2022. The Idiot's Guide to Landscaping. But that's because, yes, of course, you know, scintillating reading, right? But that's because nobody knows anything about you. So one of the first keys here is you have to set the context of the conversation such that you're narrowing, you're narrowing what you're after. Kevin: So from a practical perspective in GPT 4, you can start out a conversation by saying, I'm a landscaping expert. Um, I'm interested in expanding my knowledge of lawn care practices using scholarly articles. And it's going to say something like, yay. Next you set the context for the conversation because you could just. Kevin: Continue. And this is where it gets dangerous. Like, let's just chat about lawn care. And you're going to come up with all kinds of interesting stuff. In the back and forth that it's, it's, as you're, you're expanding. It knows who you are. It kind of knows what you're looking for. But now, you want to refine that context further. Kevin: And the way that you do that is by contextualizing something like a scholarly article. And there are tools, they're called plug ins within GPT 4, that allow you to do that. And that's simply by Letting it ingest the PDF, and now this is what we're talking about. We're not talking about the body of the knowledge, of world knowledge about lawn care. Kevin: We now have established minimal context that you have expertise in lawn care, and now specifically what we're going to talk about is this scholarly article. Like, use, oh mighty GPT, use your chat based functionality to make this easy, but this is what we're talking about. So now you've set the context for it. Kevin: And you're going to do something like, let's ask for a summary, um, that would be applicable and interesting information for an audience that is focused in on lawn care science. And it's going to come up with a bunch of ideas. Okay, cool. Now. Let's say, oh, okay, I like idea number three, that, um, you know, I don't know, relative humidity and the impact of, uh, water absorption rates on whatever it is. Kevin: Now let's dive into that, and let's put a marketing hat on. Okay, let's produce content, a blog post about this that, that, that incorporates interesting facts from the scholarly, the scholarly doc, document, and dresses it up with a little bit of marketing speak. Okay, cool. Now, because we're a marketer, we need to put headlines on it. Kevin: So let's come up with 10 possible headlines for this. So now you have 10 possible headlines for the article. Now let's get a little bit wonky because this is a scholarly article. Scholarly articles often come along with data sets. Okay. So you could actually ingest a dataset using the, the, the code interpreter function within GPT and say something completely simple, like some giant dataset, and just say, help me visualize the data in this dataset in a few different ways that would be interesting to my audience, my audience. Kevin: Like you've already defined who your audience is, right? It's another cool part. Like it has permanence. Um, So it's remembering  Andy: what you gave it earlier when you said, you know, my audience is homeowners, you know, interested in black, it, it,  Kevin: it, it stores that. So we've, we all, we all, I'm not going to say the name because it'll trigger, but the S device on a, on an Apple, if I were to say the name and I would say, Hey, what's, what's the weather in park city tomorrow? Kevin: It's going to have an answer. And if I simply said, what's the weather on Saturday? It's going to say, what are you talking about? Because it has no permanence to it at all. You have to start over in that conversation. Permanence in GPT is so cool. So just a practical tip. You have chats. that maintain that context. Kevin: And some of my chats are now hundreds of pages along because I'm chatting through specific business models and it knows that that's what we're talking about. It doesn't need to like remind itself. I can go back months later and bring something up and all that context is set and you get much better results once the context is set. Kevin: So what you've done with that. So if you, if you have a  Andy: thought. Or you have another question, but it's really related to some other things you've already asked that you'll instead of starting a new conversation, if that's what it's called, you'll go back to your other one and add it into the dialogue. Andy: Yep,  Kevin: exactly. Just write, don't even need to be like, do you remember what we're talking about? No, of course it remembers what it's talking about. It's a machine, right? Um, but imagine you've put out that blog post and, um, somebody now in the community has some insightful question and you're like, I don't know what the answer is. Kevin: Dump the question in and say, this was a community conversation. Can you, can, can you come up with some sort of, can you help me answer this question? And it's going to use the context of your chat. The conversation you have, it's going to use the document that's been set as context. And it's going to try and answer that question within that much narrower context, um, than just the wild west of the internet. Kevin: So taking it like just taking it to the logical conclusion again, as a marketer, you need visuals. So now we haven't talked about the visual tools at all. I've been very GPT focused and GPT is not the only language model out there. I just, it currently is the strongest, but. In my opinion, but there will be many, there's no real barriers to this except gazillions of dollars, which people like Mark Zuckerberg have. Kevin: So you're gonna see a lot of different models and this is just, it's going, they're all gonna be out there. So people will choose their poison. Do you know,  top  Andy: of mind what a couple other models are that we could share list in the,  Kevin: so Google Bard is quite powerful, and it's not like Google wasn't working on this. Kevin: They missed a tick. They have business model problems with this that are pretty obvious. You know, they make 160 billion a year off of advertising. And what does advertising mean if. Like you get the answer, it's not so great. So they  Andy: also not perusing the internet and clicking lots of times and visiting lots of pages and getting served. Andy: Lots of visuals. We're  Kevin: in that space, right? Yeah. So it's, it's, it's going to be an interesting existential crisis for them. They seem confident about it. So I think they have a plan, but they're constrained. My, my worry is big brands like that get more constrained by reputational impact. We all have heard the stories of the New York times, I think. Kevin: Kevin Roos, um, who like the AI tried to convince him to leave his wife and stuff. Um, like open AI, which is GPT can kind of get away with that with its. I'm a 10 billion startup thing, but Google has to worry about that. So naturally they've limited their model more. So there are all these instructions and there's a term that's, that's, that's. Kevin: It may be permanent, but at the moment, I'm not quite sure it's called a constitution. And it's this idea that there's, there's an operating, we call the, the, the, the, anytime you type something into a LLM, it's a prompt, but there are all these hidden prompts that are behind the scenes. And those hidden prompts are, let  Andy: me catch you right there. Andy: You, you, you mentioned a buzzword that I want to make sure everybody knows you said.  Kevin: Large language model. So a GPT is one of the large language models. Um, Lama from Meta and Facebook is another one. Um, Google has its own that, that underpins BARD. Um, these are all, they've all done the similar thing where they've subsumed. Kevin: The Internet and are making these connections. Um, and then, yeah, that's a GPT is not the generalized term term. It's that it has that has to do with technical language transformation. So GPT is actually a technical term. Yeah. So anytime you put a prompt into these things, that's a set of instructions that the AI is then trying to follow. Kevin: But there's a whole set of hidden prompts behind the scenes that are basically don't be psychotic, like Try not to say like racist stuff. Try not to like incite violence. Like, don't try, don't answer legal questions in a way that could be misleading. Like, it's, it's, it's like this whole giant set of things and, you know, building that constitution into the model, um, the, the, sort of the strength of that constitution ties into, this is slightly wonky, but it ties into the, the, the, how crazy the outputs can be. Kevin: And there's another term in there that's called temperature. So the higher the temperature, the more likely it is to go batshit. That it's going to start making And what does a high  Andy: temperature mean? What,  Kevin: what is that? So it's a, it's like a continuum, like low temperature is cold. Just the facts, man. And stick to the fact Right. Kevin: This is what Okay, I see. High temperature is, we're going to loosen up. That loose that that that neural network and you know, I'm being I'm trying to paraphrase a little bit But like it's gonna loosen up the neural network and allow the network to make kind of wilder connections between things  Andy: Okay, so it's called something that's extremely factual like one plus one is two would that be very very cold  Kevin: not factual So that you got to be super careful like it's pretty okay. Kevin: All right high level of probability that 1 plus 1 is 2, but, but some of these models are very bad at math. Um, because they don't, that's not what they do. They're, they're predicting that one thought follows the golden rule. Okay, we have a lot of information about the golden rule. We, we are really, really comfortable that the golden rule is due unto others, right? Kevin: So that low temperature, it's going to connect this extremely high temperature. It may come up with something like Hmm. Maybe that means something different. Hmm. Let's just like connect things. So it gets creative on its own? It's creative. Don't anthropomorphize, but it's, it's easy to do, but it is, um, it just gets looser in its neural connections and it can be very powerful in terms of being extremely creative. Kevin: There's an example that's, uh, I like that. So a high  Andy: temperature means more creative.  Kevin: Yes. And most of the models by default operate at a relatively low temperature because, That's where the you should leave your life wife and marry me stuff comes in where it starts like It's crazy. Like, don't get me wrong. Kevin: Like, researchers in this space, they anthropomorphize it because it's doing stuff that they don't understand.  Andy: Well, I'm just wondering, um, number one, I'll ask you, and you could answer it now or later, is this, is this regulated? Because if it's high temp and it's super creative, which means it may not be accurate, should there be a disclaimer in the response that must be included if you use the tool? Andy: Because the answer may or may not be correct because it's high temp and where, where do we draw the line? Or is there a line being drawn on telling someone disclosing the use of the tool?  Kevin: So this is where Europe is heading. Europe is heading to a disclosure of AI, and I think we may see something similar. Kevin: To this in the U S at some point, but it's a commons issue. Like that sort of disclosure is only as good as the compliance of the community and the enforcement mechanisms that make that happen. And I have doubts having lived in the digital marketing trends as long as I have that. If there's an edge to be had, people don't have to use these models. Kevin: So that's, we haven't really talked  Andy: about that. And right now I can write a blog post about whatever I want, factual or not. It's up to someone else to actually decide if it's right or not. I don't have to, there's no disclosure I have to put on it currently.  Kevin: And you bury it in your terms anyway, in the bottom of the fine print somewhere. Kevin: Yeah. It's like an affiliate disclosure that, um, it is possible that artificial intelligence was in some way used to construct this particular note, this particular route. Right. So maybe by  Andy: default, someone would have to trust the author, i. e. trust Kevin, trust Andy, trust the author. Then you'll trust the words, but don't trust the words. Andy: All by themselves, unless you trust the source, which is essentially where we're at today anyway.  Kevin: Yep, exactly. Do you trust the source? So authority, you have a lot of authority in this space, because you have such a great community, and you know, there's a lot of energy and output and such. That is why search engines reward you, or I assume reward you for that output. Kevin: Mm hmm. The same will be true in these models that, that, and that's the winners will be those who have a lot of authority and a lot of credibility and that will make it very hard for new entrants to, to batter through. In my opinion, there will always be shenanigans or tactics that are designed to like break through the model and try and get something that to get attention. Kevin: Um, but I think it's going to be a lot harder than it has been with a search engine optimization SEO over the years.  Andy: Let me ask you a quick question. Do you think a service business? Landscape contractor, landscape maintenance, service business, irrigation, you know, they could write an article about, let's say, turf grass management, and they could write that article with the audience being the world, yet that, with the audience being the world, that pool is extremely competitive, which makes me think that they should use That's AI to write something more hyperlocal so that they're found with somebody in their service area, and that's what matters. Andy: It's like lawn care maintenance in Peoria, Illinois, and being the expert there, but not Santa Fe, New Mexico.  Kevin: So I think, would that be the right way to think of it? I think it would. And you and I chatted briefly about Sunday. I mean, that might be a polarizing company in your world, but they do from a sales mechanism. Kevin: They're very, very good about using satellite imagery and sort of loose connections about soil density and soil construction in order to get you into their marketing funnel. And they can do that because they were extremely well funded. And, you know, they, they spent a lot of money trying to figure this out. Kevin: And the fact is there's really nothing right now preventing a Peoria, Illinois provider who knows about soil to be able to output like sort of micro geo content. Based on the information that they have to, to educate the Peoria, Illinois population about the very specific aspects of their soil on a level that someday can never touch because it's just microform. Kevin: They're too  Andy: big, right? Exactly. They're the authority in this particular area based on their experience just in this area, which someone who lives in that area, they would want to hire someone. That knows a thing or two about that specific location.  Kevin: So imagine you have your scholarly article, let's put a few of them in there that are about like how to manage, you know, pH, whatever it is, and then you can put a data set or even even sort of qualitative information. Kevin: Well, I happen to know that Be embarrassed to show you guys my lawn, but the, uh, like I happen to know I'm in a high clay area and like, I don't really know what that means, but like, you, if you feed all of this in, you could come up with a very practical micro guide that's very effective without necessarily having to do the whole lift of, of, of doing the brain dump. Kevin: Of everything, you know, about high clay environments. Um, you could use the AI as your assistant to relatively rapidly output that information. So, I mean, honestly, that's, that's very practical. Like anybody listening to this. If you're that hypothetical Peoria, Illinois, like provider, you should totally do this. Kevin: There's SEO value to that, like as far as having content that, that a local, like long care tips in Peoria, you know, right now you might actually find, if you were to type that in, there are all of the dynamically generated, like SEO articles about there that do that. But that's kind of crap content on the inside. Kevin: If you have authority as somebody who's in that community. Plus, you know, being a professional organization there, plus offering this micro content that's useful to people. You wouldn't have bothered before this. Now you can do it. You can do it this in like a half an hour. Like this is, it's, it's way easier than it, than it would have been. Kevin: And. Is it going to change your business, but is it going to, on the edges, allow you to build out just this, this corpus of credibility that, that in a very SEO sort of way can follow you over the years? Yeah, that's very plausible. Wow, this  Andy: is really hands on. I mean, I think we could, there could be a ton of value in actually doing a live workshop that could be recorded for people to see later, but take similar businesses, i. Andy: e. irrigation, contracting companies that number one, all have to have a website. I'll know exactly the type of work that they do and all know exactly their, who their best customer ideally is create some content, you know, copy pasted onto their blog, you know, know what the traffic is now. And then over. Andy: let's say three, six months, what happens after the end of six months? Could we get a cohort together that becomes like number one ranked in all of their local areas through a quick training demo seminar?  Kevin: There's value in that. I think that'd be  Andy: fun. Wow. Okay. Well, we can't show people actually how to use chat GPT today, but I love how you talked about some of the context because I feel like that's what I've had to learn the most about is not just asking it a simple question, but creating that frame. Andy: Um, and believe it or not, I learned it from my son, who was apparently was taught how to use this in college, and he's a computer science major, and you know, he uses it actually to correct some of his code when it doesn't work, uh, among other things, but he was the one that taught me you got to basically, you know, tell it who it is, what its job is, all those sorts of things to frame it. Andy: Which I had no idea about and I think that a lot of people may use again Just chat GPT and then say, you know, I tried it, but it didn't give me the results. So yeah,  Kevin: I'm done And so let's let's wrap a little bit of truth practical other practical ways that I think that everybody should be using it and cool, it's you know ranging from just dead simple to much more complicated but the Most simple bit is none of us have any excuse to have blank page syndrome again Like, some people are talented content creators. Kevin: A lot of people aren't. I am not. I, I actually can write, but it is an agonizing process for me. I'm not that guy who just can hammer something. And I have blank page syndrome. I sit there, I look at the page, and I kind of play with some words, and I'm like, eh. We  Andy: don't have that. Then your mind starts to hurt, and you'll go, eh, I'll, I'll try it again tomorrow. Andy: And then it's just repeat, repeat, repeat, and you never frickin do it.  Kevin: So now it's like I need to write a letter to X, Y, and Z client, and this is the sort of stuff that it can't contain, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and bam, you've got a draft. And then my art and my effort is spent on revising that draft and personalizing it and putting the me into that draft. Kevin: But I'm already, I've gone from zero to eight, like in 15 seconds or, you know, it's spending a little bit of time. Going back and forth with it working on tone, you know, bringing that down a little bit. So that's one It's just you you don't need blank page syndrome again Like you just start with something and then work them in related is a brainstorming partner is like Trying to isolate good ideas. Kevin: What's a bad omnipotent Personal assistant, um, next to you who knows everything about everything and occasionally lies to you, but they're very enthusiastic about it. So pretty cool to have like this brilliant thing that you can like bounce ideas off of and none of it's perfect, but boy, does it come up with some just interesting things, particularly if you, if it's like come 10 actionable headlines for this topic, like, oh, that's kind of interesting. Kevin: Like, Oh, that's neat. Let's explore this a little bit more. Um, also related. Um, you know, I think a lot of small companies struggle with creative design and creative development and are frankly beholden to a lot of creative like people and agencies out there that charge a lot of money for it. Being able to use this as sort of a creative designer assistant, again, you're not going to get to eight or nine in this case, if you're not already creative, but being able to use it to get to, you know, six, seven, eight, and like maybe script out a video or a piece of content and have an idea of what that's going to take to get it done. Kevin: Oh, you know, what sort of camera angles might I use? And then you walk into the conversation. with that creative partner, and you're way more equipped. You have a good idea of what the storyboard looks like and what it feels like. And then their art is layered on top of that because they don't know your business. Kevin: Like as much as we all love the idea of having a creative agency that knows everything about us, they're busy and they might know something about your business, but you will always know your business better than they will. So if you can kind of skip that phase and get to the, the, the creative production part. Kevin: That can be super, super useful, um, correcting documents, um, or assessing documents rapidly. Just, just being able to absorb information like in your guy's world, like every time a new regulation comes out or if, uh, you know, scholarly articles, if you're a real geek, you know, whatever it is, being able to rapidly ingest that information in a way that, that you just, you have it in your to do list. Kevin: Okay. Like I have family members who love to send me Atlantic articles. Like they're always like. 15 pages long and like, I just can't, I like don't have the bandwidth to read it. So I'll put the article in GPT. I'll summarize it. I'll frame who I am, uh, and like be able to come up with a summary that, uh, that, that, that is appropriate for who I am, that, and then I can decide if I'm going to engage in whatever, wow. Kevin: The first thing  Andy: I think of when you say that is, could we take, let's say the national plumbing code and use it to help understand what the requirements are for irrigators as it relates to the national plumbing code on what you can and can't do and what the laws and regulations are.  Kevin: Theoretically. Yeah, you could. Kevin: Wow. Your art. Don't forget your art. Like, you know, there's a code inspectors, like even you guys probably don't totally know, like, Where that line is, and it would make me a little nervous, um, to do that, but I bet you'd get some pretty meaningful output from it. Um, it would be an interesting test actually. Kevin: And just maybe  Andy: a summary format, like, Hey, can you summarize the national plumbing code and what irrigation companies should know are responsible for, you know, in a  Kevin: summary. So I literally did something like this. It was an OSHA regulation for scissor lift safety. And, um, I put in the OSHA reg and I asked it questions about like, this is not something I was doing as a hobby. Kevin: There's, I have a client who is in this world, just to be clear that I, yeah. You  Andy: weren't just going to rent a, yeah,  Kevin: a lift and go out there. But I was, I was, I was. Clean your windows. About like, you know, I have this situation, like there's a two 20, um, junction right here. Like how far away does the scissor lift need to be? Kevin: And it did an ad, it did a very good job. And I think let's think ahead a little bit. Well, what, like this is all cool. Right. But. Man, this is going to be powerful. Like you imagine that you're an onsite contractor and you've run into X, Y, and Z scenario, like right on your phone, like, Hey, I've run into this. Kevin: You know, there's a T junction of whatever flow rate. And how does this apply to, um, you know, the code of. Peoria, Illinois and flow rates that will yeah, no doubt about it. Right.  Andy: Exactly. So today, uh, we've got something called friction loss, uh, friction loss charts. So those listening likely know what a friction loss chart is. Andy: It'll tell you what the PSI loss is per hundred feet based on a specific flow rate and a specific pipe. And if somebody were out in the field today, it's very hard to have all of those things memorized. It's actually. probably impossible to have them all recalled in your head, but just to be able to ask, ask it, Hey, what's the PSI loss on 2. Andy: 5 inch PVC pipe or a hundred feet. Cause you want to make a change to your design. You need some quick engineering facts.  Kevin: Sounds interesting. That's going to be a thing. It will, it may already be like, that's, this is changing. So, so fast. I mean, I literally was in the middle of the presentation and when Andy and I were in Vegas and a new feature was released in GPT. Kevin: As I refreshed my screen, and I was like, Oh, that's new. Yeah, it's, it's very hard to keep up with. Um, and the possibilities are virtually endless. So, yeah. So what other things? So business businesses, you all have a bunch of customers. You could dump your customer data into it and ask it to visualize it and visualize where the clusters, you know, you have sales staff that are out and they're, they're covering things. Kevin: Um, It's a bit of a lift to do some sort of geographic sales analysis of how effective you're being. But if you dump the data in and you can tell it to visualize, um, where all your customers are, like almost do like word cloud type type. Deals, it'll do that. You can see that, you know, 85022, like you're doing really well in that zip code. Kevin: So kudos to that salesperson. But these other zip codes, you know, they're not, or maybe they have a lot of customers, but revenue is lower. Identify  Andy: opportunities. That was my next thought is I think that. Contractors probably have revenue per customer because that's the account. They may not have profitability per customer because they may not job cost down to that level of detail. Andy: But could you, you know, do what you just said? Say, show me geographically where, you know, a majority of our revenue comes from or where our profit comes from.  Kevin: You absolutely could, and easily, easily you could. Major caveat. You're putting your data out there, and you've got to decide if you care. Um, I have a very practical, uh, attitude about this. Kevin: That... There. The, the LLMs are not in the business of yielding your data, but there is evidence that they are porous at the moment. So if you put highly sensitive data in there that you know, the formula for Coke or something like that, it is possible that the MO model. maybe training itself on that. So if somebody somewhere then asks for the formula for Coke, um, since you've put it in there, it can connect the dots, but we're not talking about,  Andy: so you might not want to disclose the name or the address, but maybe just the zip code. Andy: And that might be good enough. The first column was a zip code.  Kevin: So, but I'm, I'm not too stressed about it. You can turn some of these tracking features off and the training features off. But somebody would have to. Like the data would have to be meaningful, right? That, that, that somebody would be interested in it and like be able to put it together and whatnot. Kevin: So know that and you're going to start to see micro LLMs develop. Um, I don't think in this scale of business so much, but in medium sized businesses, you're going to start to see captive this is just Kevin pontificating, but you're going to start to see captive LLMs such that they are walled. Such that the organization can play with the LLM, but it's not necessarily getting out into the corpus of the world. Andy: I mean, I think it, uh, you're right, is we don't know how the data could be used now, but if, if the engine, if that's what you call it, the, the machine ends up with, if everybody uploads all of their sales data by zip code, then potentially the machine knows where people are spending money on outdoor, you know, services. Andy: So if we had a new, business we wanted to sell into a brand new greenfield market. It's a startup and we could ask it, show me the areas that spend the most on irrigation systems and it could provide that to us. Then we would have a target on how to go sell holiday lights or ponds or landscape lighting or something else, patios. Kevin: Yeah, we could. And it's pulling from all kinds of different data sources as well. So, um, so other practical things. So let's talk about images.  Andy: I was gonna say, um, that's what I wanted to get into next, just briefly, because we are kind of running out of time. But could we talk a little bit about images? Andy: Sure,  Kevin: uh, so In much the same way that the language models can predict what word comes next, image models do the same thing on a pixel level. So they're predicting, based on their neural network, what could actually come out next. And this can allow you to enter prompts, in a similar way as GPT, into a model like MidJourney. Kevin: is, uh, the one that I prefer, but there's also Dolly, uh, stable diffusion. There's a few, a few others that are out there that allow you to visualize things. So here you've done your blog. Um, now you need, uh, an image to go along with the blog. You could go to Getty or one of the other image provider things and find a dude squatting next to a sprinkler. Kevin: Or you could ask the The image generator to come up with, you know, middle aged guy working on a sprinkler in their yard mountains in the background and come up with a plausible image that you can use very, very quickly. That's adapted to what you need on a professional and you and I did  Andy: this. Briefly, like with a five, a five minute, you know, demo. Andy: And I'm, I'm curious, do you still have the copy of that image that we created with  Kevin: AI? Which one that does the discord image? Yeah, I do.  Andy: Yeah. Cause maybe what we could do is if you could email that to me, I will, you know what, I may use it as the cover of this article. I'm not article, but of this podcast, uh, on sprinkler nerds so that you guys can see an example of an AI generated image that Kevin made with me with a couple prompts. Andy: So if we still have it, let's, let's  Kevin: pull it up on my screen. So it's, uh, yeah, cool. Um, so it's, it's like a guy, I think, what's the, what's the prompt? Let me read the prompt. It was, uh, If you're  Andy: listening to this on Apple podcast or Spotify or something to see the cover art, I think you will need to go to this episode on sprinklernerd. Andy: com. That's where you'll see the actual graphic that Kevin's talking about.  Kevin: So the prompt is 30 year old energetic man checking a sprinkler in a deep green lawn. Nikon photorealistic and the trigger there is I'm trying to get it. It knows what a Nikon photorealistic image should look like, so it's not going to be some wild cartoon like, you know, psychedelic type thing. Kevin: It's trying to get it to be as real as possible. And sure enough, there's a guy squatting next to a sprinkler that is pretty well unusable. Now, from a processing perspective, you know, just let's just talk more work a day like you don't know what's going on. I, I've always advised, so I guest lecture on the stuff, um, entrepreneurship in general. Kevin: And I've always told my classes that, you know, you need to know basic Photoshop if you want to be a, a group by base level entrepreneur, because if you're not a creative person, you're going to be beholden to those agencies and it takes a long time, even if you're outsourced. So you're waiting for the student. Kevin: So things like practical things, like I need to remove a background. So, you know, I see Andy's logo behind him. I need, I need a transparency of this logo. Like there's an app for that, that, you know, for basically nothing. You can go to remove BG and it's going to pull out the background or image correction or image resizing. Kevin: And what you're going to see is a lot of these tools are going to be baked into the image processing software, like. Photoshop and Illustrator. Uh, I highly recommend if you're graphically oriented that you check out Adobe Firefly, uh, because it is magic. Like. I want a picture of a deer. Okay, now let's put the deer in an alley. Kevin: Oh, let's make the alley dark and add a sign over this door. And it's just on the fly creating all of this stuff. Which should make any graphic design oriented person tremble in their boots because... The most graphic designers make their, most of their income off of the stupid little stuff. The image correction and things. Kevin: It's not the big creative projects. And you're going to see that's going to be an industry that's going to be highly disrupted as a result of this. But yeah, even  Andy: Canva today is really disruptive, but not nearly what you're talking about. But Canva  Kevin: will implement this stuff too. So you can also do video voiceover. Kevin: I mean, be very afraid about voiceover and deep fake potential. Like we're not going to get political, but the next few years in this country should be very, very interesting. That way it's an election cycle and we're going to see all kinds of crazy stuff. And just to get, you know, philosophical for a second, we're going to end up in a place where you can't trust things and that's not a good place to be at all. Kevin: But just know that you can replicate your own voice in 15 minutes. Like I do a lot of podcasts, my voice is out there. So I had this bit of an epiphany and I called my, you know, 83 year old mother and I said, look, it is entirely possible that somebody could call you with my voice and try and get access to your bank accounts. Kevin: Like. That is actually possible right now and I gave her a safe word, like, you know, if you ever feel weirded out, whether or not it's actually me, um, just ask and, um, you know, we can verify, right? Don't say your safe  Andy: word. Don't say it. Andy: That's a great tip, actually. I think I'll, I'll, uh, with my family, come up with a safe word for all of us in the event that somebody does this. I think that's a really good  Kevin: tip. And it's awful, but people, it's already happening where people will get calls from their kids. I've been kidnapped. You need to send, you know, 10 grand right now. Kevin: Like that is happening. Now the positive side is like you're very soon you're going to have the ability to have these virtual customer service agents that can actually talk to people. Um, it's also terrifying, but. Like that's, let's just stay on the positive, right? That these are, these are, these, we are going to be able to offer such a personalized experience to our customers that we are going to just be able to blow them away. Kevin: Like when you, right now you're busy, you're running around, you got all your crews, you maybe have one person answering your phone, maybe you have nobody answering your phone. The phone can be answered. Chats can be responded to like, this is an whole aspect of practical applications that you, you all should be thinking about that. Kevin: How can I, how can I create a better experience on a creepy experience, but a better experience for my customer using some of these tools to get them to what they need instead of the endless frustrating, like back and forth. So, so  Andy: this might be a good point. Two are a good time for me to mention. I would like to run an experiment. Andy: So if you've made it to the end of the episode here, I would like to run an experiment based on what Kevin just said about personalization. And I think I would like to I'm kind of just spitballing this as as I go. I'd like to put a form on my website. So let's just say I'm going to go with sprinkler. Andy: com forward slash Ink Works, I N K W O R K S. Ink Works. I'm gonna put a form there with a few questions, including your address and when you fill out the form, I'm gonna use one of Kevin's projects, ink works.ai to send you a personalized letter handwritten from me based on the input, personalized based on the inputs that you enter in the form. Andy: How's that  Kevin: sound? That sounds awesome. So, and that's, that's my, and  Andy: I'm going to pay for it. It comes with a fee and that's Kevin's project right now, inkworks. ai. So I'd like to actually test it in real time with you guys listening and, um, you know, give you, give you a taste of what Kevin's  Kevin: working on. So we do, we're using, uh, LLM technology to interpret messages. Kevin: And then we're using pen wielding robots to handwrite notes. So, let's imagine you did a big landscaping project for a customer. Like, you know you should send them a thank you note. Or a Christmas card, or whatever it is. But you never get around to it, because it's, it's, it's time consuming. Um, using Inkworks, you can produce that letter. Kevin: And it comes out handwritten, absolutely unique. Um, I of course have them piled around here. They look like they're written by... And, um, it's remarkable efficacy and very ironic that I'm using multiple layers of AI to create something that's so highly personalized specifically because people are craving that personalization that we're all bombarded by all of this information constantly with emails and SMS and all this stuff and people just ignore it and it's just going to get worse as AI continues to advance. Kevin: Um, so. Ironically that my, one of the first toeholds I have is doing something analog with something amazingly complex.  Andy: So great. So great. Can't wait to run this experiment. Uh, on that note, you know, Kevin does, uh, coach businesses in this field. If you would like to, uh, hire Kevin to, you know, help you with your business, coach your employees, give you tips. Andy: How can somebody reach out to you, Kevin?  Kevin: Yeah, the easiest is, uh, Kevin at www. inkworks. ai. Um. Or I'm relatively easy to find on, on LinkedIn. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm out there.  Andy: Very cool. Very cool. And hopefully we can maybe find a time to do a little online training as well. And again, visit sprinkler. com forward slash inkworks and let's test out Kevin's software. Andy: I'm really excited to do that. And. You know, Kevin, I think that from all the people who I have met that are into AI and use the tool, I don't think I've met someone as knowledgeable as yourself, and I really appreciate you sharing  Kevin: this with us today. Thank you. I'm clearly passionate about it. This is the future, guys. Kevin: Okay,  Andy: well, until our next AI conversation. Thanks so much, Kevin. Have a great one.  

In this episode, Andy calls Paul Bassett, and together they have a short conversation about the opportunity to turn water into dollars. === Paul: Hey Drew.  Andy: Paul. Good morning.  Paul: Good morning to you buddy. Andy: How's your day going?  Paul: It's going great today. Thanks. It's Friday.  Andy: Heck yeah. I was thinking about you this morning because of the concept of turning water into dollars that I was thinking about and thought we could just brain share about that concept. Paul: I like that. Andy: So yesterday I moderated a webinar with Ben Coffey at WeatherTrack and Max Moreno, who's the VP of sales for Harvest Landscape, and Max uses water budgets as a part of his daily business practice. And the more I started thinking about water budgets, it's really a concept of a budget and a budget entails finances and money. Andy: And what I think is so fascinating is that we all, you know, in this industry, when I say we, I'm generalizing here. Most people talk about run time, number one, you know, how long should I run my sprinklers in the form of time? And then. Kind of at the next level, people talk about how much water am I going to use? Andy: What's the gallons? What's the volume? Either gallons per minute, gallons per day, per cycle, per year, per month. But then what we really don't talk much about is what does the dollars mean? How can we convert that to dollars and cents and why do we not use that as a discussion point more often?  Paul: You're right. Paul: I mean, it's something that I think should be discussed with the end user client because in In almost any other utility consumption, it is discussed in dollars and cost. I don't know why the water is slower to transition to that. So I think it's a good place to be for us, Andy, because it will allow us to kind of be a differentiator, or what we teach others to allow them to be a differentiator. Andy: I think that if we're only now starting to talk about the dollars, I feel like what we need to do is put the dollars out there. So with the, let's say the irrigation design, the proposal, you know, the estimate when contractor X goes out to a client site, whether it's residential or commercial, and they put together their estimate for construction and installation. Andy: I don't know that I've ever seen a proposal that includes estimated. Cost per year on the system, and I think if we led with that, then that would spark the kind of curiosity and question and we could go backwards into the different parts of the system, the design, the distribution uniformity that actually affects the cost of the system, but lead with the dollars and then explain it through the use of technology, proper installation, proper design, et cetera. Andy: I mean, it's, it's so good because if you think about it in, in other appliances that you buy, for instance, you know, if you see nowadays, if you buy a hot water heater, or if you buy a refrigerator, what do they have stamped on it, they have stamped on what the anticipated energy cost is to operate that piece of equipment for a given year based upon a unit of measurement of that particular particular. Andy: Energy or, uh, utility. So they say, okay, if you're gonna buy this refrigerator, average energy costs in the United States is 12 cents a kilowatt hour. On average, this particular refrigerator is going to cost you a hundred bucks a year to run an energy. Why can't we do the same in irrigation? It should be that way. Andy: Right. Instead we say this sprinkler uses, uh, 2. 5 gallons per minute, let's just say. But what does that really mean? The user, the end user, doesn't, doesn't really know what that means, and they don't necessarily... But what if we said something different? Yeah, change the metric. I don't know if we could necessarily turn it into dollars, because it depends on, you know, how long it needs to run, but maybe it could be like, here's how many, you know, dollars per hour of operation or something like that. Andy: Yeah, or, you know, just like you, when you create a gallons per minute, we know what that... Flow rate is and you determine what that zone should run for and then calculate what it should cost to run that many gallons through the system. I mean, it's really not as challenging as one would think it's just we don't use that metric at this point,  Andy: right? Andy: And and all of these, uh, let's say modern control systems Let's just say modern because I I personally don't think most systems are really all that awesome So we'll just call them modern if we're already tracking gpm And we, you know, we can find breaks in the pipe and we can, we can have all those kinds of alarms and we have a GPM. Andy: All we have to do is add another box to the controller interface that says, what's your water cost? And now we can run basically like a cash register of, of water, of a dollar totals. You know, how awesome would that be? That's a  great  Paul: idea. Yeah, that's a great idea.  Andy: The screen of the controller should say. Andy: You know, you spent 264 yesterday to  Paul: operate this piece of equipment. Yeah. That's a good idea. And it's  Andy: not anything that requires any kind of like sophisticated engineering. It's just another variable calculated. Like it's easy.  Paul: Pretty much. You're right. I mean, I don't see that. And well, then there's, there's another idea to put to the idealist. Andy: We got it. Yeah. And you know, we're looking at from the sort of, that's the technology side of it, but even as a contractor putting together a proposal, I think it would be an amazing differentiator to separate someone's business if they included that in their proposal, because it would be a great. Andy: conversation piece to have with the client that would allow the contractor to showcase their knowledge, expertise, and build trust. And the client may say, you know what, you're the only one who, who gave me a proposal with the estimated water costs. And then the contractor might say something like, you know what, you should go ask the other contractors how much their system is going to cost you. Andy: And if they did that, the other contractors may say, I don't, I don't know, I don't, I don't think about that and basically talk themselves out of the sale. Yeah,  Paul: that is a very good point to make if you're a sophisticated contractor and you want to differentiate yourself from the rest of the pack, that is a good ploy to put in your proposal. Paul: Yeah, and that  Andy: would be one way to win the project by and be the highest price is because you're adding value And I don't know anyone who's really doing that. So there you go guys. That's one little nugget Maybe you can experiment with and then reply back and let us know how it went Did it help you close the sale when you included water costs  Paul: and if folks need assistance with it Andy Certainly they can reach out to both you and I we can we can help them prepare that document because you know We've been doing this for more than 20 years. Paul: Ideally, I know I've or that 30. So that that's really what has helped me and my business succeed is being able to tell the end user what they're using and spending in water and what a 10% or 15% reduction of water is going to show in savings and then where they can use. Savings by increasing the efficiency in the system or by investing in technology,  Andy: it would help explain. Andy: So if, if instead of selling a quote unquote, more expensive sprinkler, because it has pressure regulation built in, let's say for those areas where it's not necessarily required, that helps tell the story of why, well, because you're going to save that amount of money right away in the first year. Because of the reduced water usage. Paul: Yeah, and or even as we do, Andy, add some additional data points, i. e. some soil moisture sensors to be able to stop watering in a given period because we now know what the moisture level is in the soil. Whereas other irrigation systems will just water their regular Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule and we can delay or even stop those schedules and we can, or you can prove to the homeowner, here's what it costs every time your schedule runs. Paul: And then here's how many times we feel we can delay the schedule and what that savings are going to be. Yeah,  Andy: because the, the volume of water doesn't really mean much to people because they don't know what a thousand gallons looks like or 50, 000 gallons looks like. 50, 000 seems like maybe it's a lot of water, but if, if we had the, if we changed the narrative. Andy: and switched it to dollars, then the amount of water doesn't really even matter as much. It's more like, how do I go from spending 750 a month to spending 500 a month? It's much more tangible, I think.  Paul: Definitely. Definitely. And then people hope, you know, some of the more sophisticated homeowners and business owners have a budget that they prepare, and then they go from their budget. Paul: So you can, you can assist them with establishing their. Their annual budget costs of what they're going to spend in water.  Andy: So I think when we're thinking about water budgets, and then again, this is where my thought came from because this is what our conversation was with WeatherTrack and using the tools of that controller for water budgeting and you can enter the gallons so that you can put, you know, you can track and trend how many gallons you're using. Andy: I think we really need to switch the conversation to just be about Dollars and cents because everybody understands dollars and cents, but I don't think a lot of people Understand what their water costs or what a certain volume of water, you know, it's it's not tangible to them Yeah, and  Paul: it's really strange that that's been the case with water and again dealing with it for this past 30 years I'd like to see the narrative shifting I like the fact that people are really caring more about the insights and digitization of water And, and now that there's more and more tools to be able to deploy for people to see the insights in their water usage and their patterns. Paul: Mm hmm.  Andy: Mm hmm. Yeah. And again, we kind of talked here about using homeowners, but really, you know, the bigger, the bigger opportunity is for these light commercial, commercial municipal sites that did use a lot of water, you know, say 20, 000 or more a year. I think that's the real hot opportunity.  Paul: And Andy, as you know, there's other sites that use hundreds of thousands of dollars. Paul: You know, or more a year, um, and just a slight decrease of 10% can can really be dramatic when you're spending 100 grand. I mean, think about it. If they're spending 100 grand in water a year, and you, you say 10%. 10, 000. I mean, that is a big number to be able to use to invest into the newer technology.  Andy: And then depending on perhaps what type of, uh, uh, ROI, you know, there could be, uh, a client could say, you know what, anything that can give us a five year ROI, we're going to invest in. Andy: So 10, 000 over five years is 50 grand. There's the budget for the controls retrofit or whatever the retrofit might be.  Paul: And then two, it's not even just about the technology to achieve the savings that they, they could use that money to invest in personnel that can monitor and manage this equipment. And so that's really where I think this particular strategy really takes places where you can sell the end user, the upgraded management. Paul: of the system by showing them the savings by just having someone have eyes and ears looking at the data.  Andy: Yeah, good stuff, man. Well, appreciate the little brain share this morning. Always good to vision future vision with you. And I think that turning water into dollars, we might be on the on the edge of that next revolution. Andy: There's  Paul: no doubt and it's always good to talk with you to the thoughts and brain shares are  Andy: Always great. So there you have it guys. Paul and I are making a prediction that one of the next revolutions, or let's not say revolution evolution is going to be totalizing water in the control systems by dollars, not just gallons and displaying it and talking about it. Andy: Cool. Thanks.  Paul: Good to hear from you. Thank you. Have a good day. Bye bye.

PromEvil takes you to that most horrifying of places - HIGH SCHOOL.  On prom night, naturally.  And something horrible is about to come out of the woodshop, and we don't mean Hal in his school mascot costume.... A lot of people put their heart and soul into producing this memorable event: STUDENTS Hal - Mathias Rebne-Morgan Lyn - Molly Tollefson Todd - Eli Nilsson Gee - Melissa Bartell Barb - Beverly Poole Andy - Mike Campbell Bud - Jasper Loovis Tina - Chandra Wade Missy - Jade Thomson Jake - Michael Faigenblum other students - Sky Iolta, Shelbi MacIntyre, Henry Mark FACULTY Principal Peabody - Reynaud LeBoeuf Mr. Ervin Carpel, Woodshop - Gene Thorkildsen Ms. Angela Wellesly, Crafts - Gwendolyn Jensen-Woodard Mrs. Snodgrass, Lunchroom - Robyn Keyes P.A. Announcements - Julie Hoverson Rent-a-cop Bob - The Caretaker OTHERS Cop 1 - Glen Hallstrom Cop 2 - Joel Harvey 911 Voice - Julie Hoverson STAFF Writer - Julie Hoverson Doll Wranglers - Julie Hoverson, Kimberly Poole (Warp'd Space) Sound and Mastering - Julie Hoverson Stock sound effects - Soundsnap.com; sonomic.com Music - Prom - Sinkhole Music - background - Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com) _______________________________________________________________________ Prom Evil - Part 1 MUSIC AMB            BUSY HIGH SCHOOL HALLWAY P.A. VOICE     Don't forget! It's your last chance to pick up those prom tickets!  Show your Polk high Spirit!  Polky says - don't drink and drive! AMB            FADE IN ON WOOD SHOP SOUND          HEAVY DISTINCTIVE TICKING CLOCK IN THE WOOD SHOP CARPEL         [off] All right, um, kids.  Let's start finishing up-- BUD            You up for prom tonight? HAL            Gotta be there.  School spirit and all. BUD            Ew, Hal, you're not bringing ..."IT"? HAL            It's my job, Bud.  Polky lives. CARPEL         [off] Let's get everything put-- SOUND          BELL RINGS SOUND          CLATTER OF STUFF JUST BEING LEFT ON TABLES CARPEL         --Away. [sigh] SOUND          MASS EXODUS HAL            Bud!  Dude! [exasperated noise] SOUND          GATHERS UP TOOLS SOUND          KNOCK ON DOORFRAME TODD           Mr. Carpel? SOUND          SLAMMING BRIEFCASE SHUT CARPEL         [ow!]  Damn! [composing himself] This... it's my break, Todd. TODD           I just wanted to see... her. SOUND          TAP ON GLASS CABINET TODD           [almost silent] Hi! CARPEL         Todd! TODD           She--  They can come home soon, right?  CARPEL         After tonight, they can do...I mean, YOU...can...do whatever you want with them.  ... Her.  It. SOUND          SCRABBLE OF FEET CARPEL         Go on now.  I'm not...done... grading.  Scoot scoot. TODD           Right.  [almost silent] Bye! SOUND          FEET CARPEL         [sigh of relief] HAL            [clears his throat] CARPEL         [startled] Ahh! HAL            Sorry.  I was just putting away... CARPEL         Of course, of course.  Go on now. HAL            Right.  They're really pretty great, you have to admit. CARPEL         What?  HAL            The carvings.  SOUND          LIGHT TAP ON GLASS HAL            I woulda gone for it, but I don't have the patience.  Or the carving skillz-- CARPEL         Right, right - just please-- HAL            Got it!  Evaporate. SOUND          FEET, DOOR SLAMS CARPEL         [sigh, of extreme relief] MUSIC AMB            HALLWAY SOUND          LOCKER CLOSES LYN            [sigh] OK, nothing happens.  Surprise! BARB           It's coming.  What?  You're all hot to go study?  It's party night, Lyn.  Loosen up. LYN            [sigh] A moment, then-- BARB           Jake!  You're SO late! LYN            Huh? Jake--? BARB           Mmm.  Come here! SOUND          LONG SMOOCHING LYN            But, Barb--!  Barb!  Barb? SOUND          SMOOCHING ENDS JAKE           [catching his breath] Hey.  So, What's the deal? BARB           This is my cousin, Lyn. LYN            [panicky] uh, yeah. JAKE           Hey, Lyn.  I-- BARB           [sudden rush] I was telling her all about you, and she's just [as if she's looking for something] ...dying ...to meet ...you.  [angry sigh]  [shrill] Anyway.  She doesn't have a date for tonight, so I-- ANDY           [coming in] Whoa.  What the hell's up? BARB           Aha!  Jake?  You know Andy. JAKE           [chuckle] LYN            [this is ugly] Ohh! ANDY           What's up with this?  What-- BARB           I meant to tell you earlier, Andy, but you weren't picking up-- ANDY           I don't got my cell on me at practice-- BARB           [flippant] Andy... it's over-- ANDY           Over?  It's not over until-- JAKE           Oh yeah? BARB           So you'll have to find yourself a new "bunny".  Right Jake? ANDY           You bitch!  You said-- BARB           For prom. ANDY           But, Prom's TONIGHT! BARB           Sorry.  [she's not]  Not my problem.  Come on, stud muffins. JAKE           [chuckles] SOUND          THEY START TO WALK AWAY LYN            [rueful] Barb.  Jeez. BARB           [over her shoulder] Lyn's free tonight. LYN            [gasp!] ANDY           [to himself] Fine! [to Lyn, muttered] I got tickets, wanna go? LYN            I'm really sorry she-- ANDY           C'mon...don't make me waste 'em. LYN            [tsks]  Fine. ANDY           See you in the gym?  Gotta get back to the field. SOUND          HE TROTS OFF LYN            Right.  Bye. GEE            [coming on, whispering] Extra, extra - read all about it.  Dumped jock falls for head of debate team. LYN            I've already had my heart attack for the day, thanks, Gee. GEE            No hearts were injured in the filming of this-- LYN            I don't even have a dress. GEE            [mock serious]  Wanna shock everyone?  You could be my date.  [goofy kissy noise] LYN            [laughs] SOUND          BELL RINGS, THEY START DASHING LYN            Come on!  [hustling] Barb'll have a plan. GEE            [keeping up] Oh, yeah.  That'll be good. MUSIC SOUND          BELL RINGS SOUND          STUDENTS POUR OUT - END OF DAY SOUND          LOCKERS BEING OPENED STUDENTS       [conversations about the prom tonight] SOUND          DOOR CREAKS OPEN CARPEL         Oh, um... [hoarse] Miss, um, Francis! [clears his throat]  Miss Francis! MISSY          Yes?  Something I can do for you, Mr. Carpel? ["CAR-pull"] CARPEL         [irritable, automatic] That's Carpel. ["car-PELL"]  [clears his throat again]  I, um, I could use some advice...  Could you step in for a moment? MISSY          [unsuspecting] Um, sure.  What do you need? CARPEL         [lying] I have this niece, and it's her birthday, and I want a, um, well, a young woman's opinion of the present I bought for her.  It will just take a moment, um, if you can spare the time? MISSY          [indulgently] Oh, sure. MUSIC AMB            OUTSIDE, STUDENTS, TRAFFIC, ETC. STUDENTS       [lots of chatter about prom] BUD            Life's almost over...what do you plan to do once YOU graduate? HAL            Not a clue.  Dad says I've got-- [apes dad's voice] ..."no ambition, no drive."  I guess he's right.  I just don't have a burning desire to DO anything with my life... [LYN AND BARB PASS BY - FADING IN AND THEN OUT] BARB           --taffeta underskirt - but not too long, you know?  I was all like, how can I possibly dance in that?  LYN            I don't dance. BARB           Let me finish!  Sides, I want to show off the adorable prada pumps-- HAL            [heavy sigh] Except... BUD            [Following the look] Ex-cept?  Still got the hots for that brain? HAL            She's not a brain, just smart..."Brains" look down on the rest of us, and Lyn...she can be really nice.  Not like the barbies you date. BUD            Nothing wrong with dumb girls‑‑ HAL            Takes one to know one. MUSIC AMB            WOOD SHOP MISSY          Ooh!  Is this what the woodcarving class has been working on!  Wow!  Look at her teensy little hands! SOUND          TAP ON GLASS CARPEL         [getting more and more nervous] Ahem.  It's just over here, Missy. MISSY          Oh, right! SOUND          PAPER GIFT BAG FULL OF TISSUE SET ON DESK CARPEL         I hope this is something a... young lady would like. MISSY          Let's see. SOUND          BAG RUSTLES SOUND          SOMETHING PICKED UP ON WORKBENCH MISSY          What is it? SOUND          RUMMAGING IN TISSUE SOUND          HAMMER BROUGHT DOWN ON HER HEAD. MISSY          Oohhhhh! SOUND          BODY DROP SOUND          FEET RUN TO DOOR, LOCK IT CARPEL         [breathing heavily, panicky] MUSIC AMB            OUTSIDE BUD            Ask her. HAL            Nah.  Polky goes stag. BUD            Buy a clue, Hal...school mascot never gets laid.  'sides, running around as a big purple - what the hell is Polky, anyway? HAL            Polky is the Polk high polka-dot. BUD            Ri-i-ight.  Well...let's just say it ain't gonna get you a job. HAL            Scoff all you want.  If I work real hard, someday I could be a giant cell phone at the mall. BUD            Hark!  The wolverine has left the lamb unguarded-- HAL            Barb's gone?  Where? BUD            She probably went to pee on some poor guy.  Mark her territory-- HAL            [speculative] Maybe I will.... [grunts as he gets up, then fading]  What's the worst that could happen? SOUND          CREAK OF BACKPACK MUSIC AMB            WOODSHOP CARPEL         [still wheezing] SOUND          ASTHMA INHALER CARPEL         [Deep breath, then an exaggerated one]  Clear the mind.  [half another breath, cuts off with]  Oh, crap!  Clear the desk! SOUND          EVERYTHING BEING SWEPT OFF THE DESK MISSY          [groan, hit by something] CARPEL         Oh no!  No, no! Come here, you!  [grunts as he gets a grip on her] MISSY          [groans again] CARPEL         And U-U-U-U-U-P! [grunts] SOUND          THUMPS [humorous bit, with him trying to get her onto the desk, finally] CARPEL         [breathing heavily] MISSY          [groans] CARPEL         [whispering, afraid to wake her]  no!  Nononono!  Stay down!  [a moment of breathing]  Good.  [a demented whisper of a chuckle] SOUND          ROPE BEING UNROLLED CARPEL         [to self] need about... hmm...  three yards for the feet, and-- SOUND          KNOCK AT THE DOOR CARPEL         [startled to death] Ahh! SOUND          EVERYTHING DROPS, ENDING WITH A GOOFY CLATTER TODD           [off] Mr. Carpel?  Um, are you there? SOUND          DOORKNOB RATTLES SOUND          ROPE MOVES AGAIN, BEGINS TO BE KNOTTED CARPEL         [barely able to breath] Go away, Todd.  I'm busy.  Come back tomorrow. MISSY          [groans] CARPEL         [frustrated noise!] TODD           [off] I just wanted to...to check on my project. SOUND          KNOT TIED TIGHTLY CARPEL         You got an A.  Now go away! TODD           [off] I...um...Well, all right. SOUND          SECOND KNOT CREAKS MISSY          [sharp moan] CARPEL         [muttered] Better not hit her again...  a gag!  Yes, um... oh, no that's filthy... um... [catches himself and starts to laugh hysterically]  MISSY          [moans] CARPEL         [worried noise] Ahh! SOUND          TISSUE PAPER GRABBED AND SHOVED INTO MOUTH CARPEL         That should do it.  Now. SOUND          BOOK CREAKS OPEN, PAGES FLIP CARPEL         Right. SOUND          FUMBLING WITH GLASSES CARPEL         [reading from a list] Five black candles check.  Oil.  Salt.  Knife, oh yes. SOUND          PULLS THE THINGS OUT AS HE NAMES THEM, SETS KNIFE DOWN, AND IT CLATTERS TO THE FLOOR. MUSIC AMB            OUTSIDE HAL            [to self] Um, hi Lyn!  No.  [mister slick] "Hey. Prom?  Yeah."  No.  Uh!  [grunt as he's shoved aside] BARB           [disparaging noise] Walk much?  [to Lyn] It's all arranged. LYN            How could you--? BARB           What?  So I helped you.  Have a cow. LYN            HELPED me?  You-- BARB           Selflessly gave you my ex‑.  Isn't there an award for that?  Oh, get that out of my face! GEE            What?  Oh, sorry, right, if you cross a witch with your shadow, she loses her power over you. SOUND          UMBRELLA COLLAPSES BARB           What-ever.  Lyn.  Walk. HAL            Oh, darnit.  SOUND          [OFF] UMBRELLA UP AGAIN HAL            Aah! GEE            Oh, jeez!  Sorry! HAL            No.. no worries. [defeated sigh] GEE            [tsks merrily] LYN            But you...like...Andy? BARB           Of course I do.  This is just for tonight. GEE            [catching up] Let me guess.  You fixed him up with Lyn so he wouldn't get snatched up by someone more like...hmm...You? ...at prom. BARB           [snide] Coming from someone who carries a black umbrella and only dates on-line. GEE            It's a parasol, and I'll still have a complexion when I'm 40! BARB           Oh, yeah?  That white makeup will suck all your vitamin D! GEE            Lizard neck! LYN            Gee, leave off, OK? GEE            [exasperated sigh] BARB           [muttered] Little "Bite-Me Barbie". LYN            You leave off too. MUSIC AMB            WOOD SHOP SOUND          HEAVY CANDLE SET DOWN CARPEL         Five.  Lit counterclockwise, um... SOUND          CLOCK TICKS FOR A MINUTE CARPEL         Right. MISSY          [moans, then starts to wake, tries to scream around the tissue] CARPEL         [more whiny than scary]  I'll hit you again if I have to.  SOUND          TURNS A PAGE CARPEL         Circle of chicken blood.  SOUND          LID UNSCREWS ON PLASTIC BOTTLE, RATTLES AWAY MISSY          [SCREAMS AROUND THE PAPER] MUSIC AMB            OUTSIDE SOUND          HAL DROPS HIS PACK, THEN SITS HAL            Psyche 101. [grunts as he sits] BUD            What? HAL            Psyche 101...I could be a shrink, right? BUD            Yeah, right. HAL            Maybe I could specialize in abnormal psychology...you could be my first case study. BUD            Or him. TODD           [muttering] I just wanted to see her, and give her this heart - it's just the right size-- SOUND          RATTLE OF TINY NECKLACE CHAIN BUD            The resident wood shop mad genius? BOB            [calling from off] Ooh, it's Todd...hey, did Barbie ever return your calls? FRED           [calling from off] Maybe he's taking Chatty Kathy to the dance tonight. BOB            [calling from off] A blow-up doll'd be a better choice, Todd...at least then you'd have a chance of getting a little. TODD           [still muttered] Laurel's not a doll, she's a statue.  She's ART. GEE            Leave off, you scrotes. FRED           I vanda suckya blood! GEE            You wouldn't know what to DO with my blood.  MUSIC AMB            WOOD SHOP SOUND          LIQUID POURING onto floor CARPEL         [chanting] MISSY          [moaning] SOUND          ROPES CREAK AS SHE STRUGGLES MUSIC TODD           [muttering] Laurel is perfect.  I made her that way, and she understands me--[gasp] SOUND          THUD AS HE RUNS INTO BARB BARB           [uh!] Dweeb.  Get some glasses. [back to Lyn] I'll even get you a dress.  It won't be Vogue, but... SOUND          CELL PHONE BEING DIALED LYN            [weakening] But I don't want a dress.  I really ...Barb...I don't like this. BARB           No problem, really. LYN            But-- BARB           I'd loan you one of mine, but it wouldn't fit.  Like a basketball hoop catching tennis balls. LYN            [very uncomfortable noise]  Umm.  BARB           Jeez.  Missy's not picking up.  Wonder who she's doing? MUSIC AMB            WOOD SHOP SOUND          SCRAPE OF KNIFE BEING PICKED UP CARPEL         CHANTING SOUND          CELL PHONE MUSIC SOUND          KNIFE CLATTERS TO THE FLOOR CARPEL         What the--?  Oh, heavens! SOUND          RUMMAGING THROUGH HER PURSE, VARIOUS THINGS TOSSED ONTO FLOOR, SOMETHING SQUEAKS AS IT HITS SOUND          FINALLY FINDS PHONE, PUSHES BUTTONS, BUT NOTHING WILL STOPS IT, FINALLY THROWS IT AGAINST WALL AND STOMPS ON IT SOUND          PHONE DIES SOUND          ASTHMA INHALER MUSIC AMB            OUTSIDE LYN            All right!  I'll...I can borrow a dress from Jean...we wear the same size. BARB           Your little sister?  She's a baby, how could she have a decent dress? LYN            Who else is my mom gonna dress up?  Me? MUSIC WOOD SHOP CARPEL CHANTS AGAIN SOUND          BOOK CREAKS OPEN SOUND          KNIFE PICKED UP OFF FLOOR WITH SCRAPE MISSY          [struggling weakly] SOUND          SUDDENLY, LUNGES, PLUNGES KNIFE INTO MISSY WITH HORRIBLE SQUISHY NOISE.  GRINDS IT AROUND A BIT, MAKING SURE SHE'S DEAD MISSY          [death rattle] CARPEL         [breathing heavily]   SOUND          WIPES SWEAT OFF HIS FACE, THEN REACTS AS HE REALIZES HE JUST SMEARED BLOOD ALL OVER HIMSELF. CARPEL         gah!! SOUND          DASH TO SINK, RUNS WATER MUSIC AMB            OUTSIDE, BUT AWAY FROM PEOPLE TODD           [muttering to self] I spent so much time carving her.  I know the project called for raw wood, no paint, but now that they're graded and everything, there's nothing wrong with a little embellishment. SOUND          DELICATE NECKLACE CHAIN TODD           Gold will suit her dark grain.  Oh Laurel! MUSIC AMB            WOOD SHOP SOUND          TAPS TURNED OFF SOUND          DRIPPING CARPEL         Right.  The blood.  SOUND          METAL BOWL OUT OF BAG, CATCHES DRIPS CARPEL         Almost done now.  [ecstatic]  And then they'll see!  They'll all see! SOUND          DRIPPING SLOWS CARPEL         No, no, I need more....  I think I need more!  Oh!  Here. SOUND          CUTS A ROPE, ROLLS BODY ONTO ITS SIDE SOUND          GUSHY NOISES, MORE DRIPPING CARPEL         There we go!  That's about enough.  SOUND          DRIPPING CONTINUES, BODY FLOPS CARPEL         Enough!  SOUND          SHOVE BODY, IT ROLLS WITH A GUSHY NOISE CARPEL         Sorry about that, Missy, but it had to be done.  I wish you'd just stayed unconscious.  Wouldn't have been so awful for you. SOUND          SETS DOWN SLOSHY BOWL SOUND          OPENS GLASS DOOR OF CASE CARPEL         [chanting again] SOUND          PICKS UP BOWL SOUND          LIQUID BEING POURED MUSIC AMB            GYM [EVERYTHING ECHOES] SOUND          SOUND CHECK IN BACKGROUND SOUND          QUICK STRIDES ACROSS WOOD FLOOR HAL            --it's in the band locker.  You gotta let me in. PEABODY        [over his shoulder] The school is locked up for the night.  Besides, the old one's in the drama loft...use it. HAL            But it's a piece of crap!  The foam rubber's all gone to dust...you can't even breathe in the darn thing. PEABODY        You only have to wear it during the announcements.  Surely you weren't planning to parade around in the ludicrous mascot costume all night? HAL            [clearly disappointed] Guess not. PEABODY        Quickly, then... MUSIC CARPEL         [The chant ends.] SOUND          CREAKING OF WOOD [NOTE]         ESTABLISH THE DISTINCTIVE SOUND OF EACH OF THE DOLLS - LAUREL, ahhhh noises; LEDERHOSEN GUY, EVIL CHUCKLE; MONKEYHEAD, SCREECHES; SURFER DUDE, LONG DUH; AND THE MAJORETTE, RHYTHMIC CLICKING SOUNDS. CARPEL         It worked!  They live! MUSIC AMB            GYM SOUND          LIQUID POURING SOUND          FEET ON STEP LADDER ANGELA         Hand me the tape, Marge? SNODGRASS      Do I look like someone with three hands? ANGELA         [to herself] No, you look like a shaved bulldog in a safety orange muumuu. SOUND          POURING STOPS SNODGRASS      Huh? ANGELA         [covering] Just admiring your dress! SNODGRASS      [taking it seriously]   It ain't just anybody can wear this color.  You were looking for tape? MUSIC SOUND          TAPPING OF DOLL FEET AS THEY CLIMB DOWN CARPEL         You are mine!  My servants!  My revenge! SOUND          WOODEN FEET AS THEY HOP DOWN LEDERHOSEN GUY EVIL CHUCKLE SOUND          MOVED QUICKLY TOWARD CARPEL CARPEL         No!  No!  Not me!  You're supposed to obey me!  Stop! SOUND          PAGING THROUGH BOOK CARPEL         Obey me!  You're my minions! SOUND          THE DOLLS ATTACK.  TRIP CARPEL, PUMMEL HIM. CARPEL         What are you doing with that awl!  You could put an eye out-- [ahh!  Gurgle, whiny death noises] SOUND          FUTILE POUNDING OF TINY FISTS ON LOCKED DOOR END OF PART 1

Andy Hoffman and Robert talk about money and human behavior. Andy helps people set money goals and then create a system to honor those goals because the systems aligns with our natural habits. Most money planning goes against the grain and is as challenging to honor as a DIET, but Andy helps people to find success in creating a money system and protecting the PLANs that you make for your money. Check out more of Andy You can start now by watching his free training, at AutomaticMoneyFlow.com. Website: andyhoffman.me/ LinkedIn: /in/andrewwhoffman/ Twitter: /theandyhoffman Instagram: /rogue.finance/ Facebook: /profile.php?id=100087606723081 Did you love the value that we are putting out in the show? LEAVE A REVIEW and tell us what you think about the episode so we can continue putting out great content just for you! Share this episode and help someone who wants to connect with world-class people. Get our free gift of 11 Hacks from Successful Entrepreneurs @ AddValue2Entrepreneurs.com. Do you struggle with procrastination? Sign up for a 5 day challenge to help you take more action and make more money in your business AddValue2Life.com/action Need some hope? Get your copy of the Dose of Hope @AddValue2Life.com/dose. Follow us at facebook.com/n2rpeterson, instagram.com/n2rpeterson, linkedin.com/in/robertav2l, youtube.com/channel/UCU1gxHrzesGKUPHJdKLUTLg

Ben and Mia, young zombies in love, search for the perfect xmas present in a world of the walking dead.    Cast List Mia - Brenda Dau Ben - Derek M. Koch                 of Mail Order Zombie Geek - Glen Hallstrom Tick - Frankenvox Chuck - Bob Noble Andy - Reynaud LeBoeuf Doris - Julie Hoverson Sheri - Crystal Thomson Ted - J. Spyder Isaacson Voicebox - Beverly Poole Fred & Bob - Big Anklevich           & Rish Outfield           of Dunesteef Audio Magazine Ben's Double - Danar Hoverson Mia's Double - Julie Hoverson Other zombies:  Al Aseoche, Jacquie Duckworth, Reynaud LeBoeuf, Jack Hosley, Sidney Williams, Glen Hallstrom, Bob Noble, Brian Weingartner, Ferguson and family, Robyn Keyes, Kim Poole, Michael Hudson. Music by Jason Shaw (Audionautix.com) Show theme:  Kevin MacLeod (Incompetech.com) Editing and Sound:   Julie Hoverson Cover Design:  Brett Coulstock "What kind of a place is it? Why it's an apartment on the wrong side of town, can't you tell?" ******************************************************************************************** GIFT OF THE ZOMBI   Cast: [Opening credits - Olivia] Mia, zombie (20s) dating Ben Ben, zombie (20s) dating Mia Ted, zombie (30s), Mia's horny neighbor Andy, henpecked zombie (40s) Doris, Andy's wife (40s) Geek, a broker (30s) Sheri, a lovelorn friend (20s) Tick, an unscrupulous intact (human, 30s) Fred, a zombie (any) Bob, another zombie (any) Chuck, overseer zombie (any) Voicebox - mechanical translator   ALL ZOMBIES (unless noted as exceptions, below) have dual vocal tracks - the "zombie-voice" track, which is unintelligible, but vaguely mirrors the normal voice and events, and the "mind voice" (sounds like a voiceover), which is how they sound to each other.  /n = normal"mind voice" /z = "zombie voice" There are places where we only hear the zoombie voice.   Exceptions:  DORIS has no "mind voice", just incoherent shrieks GEEK only has a zombie voice, but he is clearly understandable, if still zombie-like TICK is human, and has no zombie-voice.   NOTE:  The zombie apocalypse has come and been dealt with more or less.  Zombies might still attack humans, if they see them, but humans tend to live in the walled cities and have become somewhat mythological to the zombies outside.  Zombies still are self-aware, but they think and speak so very slowly that they are difficult for humans to understand.  Conversely, to a zombie, humans seem to speak incredibly fast - almost incomprehensibly so.  That's why humans developed the voicebox to take what they say and slow it down enough for a zombie to understand. OLIVIA      Did you have any trouble finding it?  What do you mean, what kind of a place is it?  Why, it's a crumbling apartment building, can't you tell?  MUSIC SCENE 1.     MIA'S APARTMENT SOUND      WIND-UP ALARM GOES OFF SOUND     FLIES IN THE B/G THROUGHOUT MIA/Z     [distant moan of awakening, which continues, sporadically,  punctuating the narrative] MIA/n     I hate Mondays.  SOUND     ALARM SLAPPED OFF TABLE, STOPS RINGING SOUND     STUMBLING FOOTSTEPS MUSIC     VAGUE WARPED CHRISTMAS CAROL PLAYS SOMEWHERE MIA/n     It doesn't help that it's two days til Christmas and I haven't got Ben his present. MIA/z     [roar of anger] SOUND      SOMETHING CRASHES TO FLOOR, GLASS BREAKS. MIA/N     The holidays just bring out the worst in me. SOUND     DOOR OPENS, FOOTSTEPS CONTINUE MIA/N     [sigh] Checking my stitches in the mirror - nice to see nothing weird happened in the night.  I love the hot pink against my pale skin.  [beat] I know I'm swimming against the tide, but I still like to look nice, even when no one else gives a hang.  They're welcome to run around unwashed, in raggedy-ass clothes, just leaves more Prada for me. SOUND     SPRAY CAN PSSHT, FLIES STOP, TINY DROPPING NOISES MIA/n     A little spray - no water, that's just asking for mold - and I'm ready to face the day. SOUND     [under the next] SHAMBLING FOOTSTEPS OUT OF BATHROOM AGAIN, STRUGGLES FEET INTO SHOES, NOW SHAMBLING FEET ARE IN HEELS.  MIA/n     Ben's gift is the big problem.  I know what I want to get him, but it won't come cheap.  There just aren't that many floating around out there. MUSIC       SCENE 2.     OUTSIDE SOUND     NO TRAFFIC. JUST BIRDS, SHAMBLING FOOTSTEPS, OR OCCASIONAL BREAKING THINGS. SOUND     STRUGGLE WITH OBJECTS, THINGS FALL AWAY BEN/z     [moans, fighting his way to his feet] BEN/n     [hungover sounding] Wow, what did I do last night?  BEN/z     [shake head noise] BEN/n     Oh, crap - Mia'll be expecting me-- SOUND     SHAMBLING FEET SPEED UP BEN/n     For all her persnickityness, Mia is totally the greatest babe around, and I am sooo lucky that I'm the one she's into.  I figured for the longest time that she was just slumming with a grot like me - right up until we really did it.  Went whole hog and did the handfast.  It's like always having a piece of her with me.  [note:  in this case, the handfast was actually trading hands.  zombies can buy and sell body parts and trade them with one another] ANDY/z     [morning] BEN/z     [yo!  How's it going?] ANDY/z     [falling moan, ending in a squeal] BEN/n     Don't I know it!  Man, if ever a guy was whipped, Andy is the poster boy.  He's gonna catch hell for not getting home to Doris last night.  Almost tempting to stay and see the fray, but meeting Mia is the only thing on my maggoty little mind right now. MUSIC   SCENE 3.     MIA'S STAIRCASE SOUND     BODY FALLS DOWN STAIRS, FOLLOWED BY THE CLATTER OF A SHOE. MIA/z     [distraught moan] MIA/n     Darn stair carpet.  Darn heels.  SOUND     FEELING AROUND FOR THE SHOE AND PUTTING IT BACK ON MIA/n     Alas, vanity doesn't come cheap.  Ben loves my little foibles.  He understands why it matters so much to me, to be beautiful for him.  Looking back at my pink stitches, almost tripping as I crane my neck to see, I wonder whether he will like them as much as I do. SOUND     SHAMBLING FEET IN HEELS AGAIN, ANOTHER SET OF FEET COMES ON TED/z     [moan approaches, vaguely suggestive] MIA/z     [dismissive moan] MIA/n     Not today, Ted.  I don't have time for any of your nonsense. TED/z     [moan ending in a squeak/question] MIA/n     I'm with Ben, Ted.  You know that.  I'm not giving up what I have with him.  He has my hand, and my promise.  He even has my heart ... just in the old-fashioned way. TED/z     [mournful and pissed moan] MIA/n     Yeah, yeah, yeah - if you were the last one on earth, maybe. MIA/z     [roar/moan as she brushes him aside] SOUND     STUMBLING FEET QUICKLY TO DOOR, SLAMS OPEN, TUMBLES THROUGH MIA/z     [roar of triumph] MIA/N     First time!! [made it on the first try!]  This is gonna be a great day! MUSIC   SCENE 4.     OUTSIDE, NEAR BEN ANDY/z     [cursing groan] ANDY/n     Come on, Ben.  Doris likes you!  If I say you needed my help, she'll buy it! BEN/z     [dismissive groan] SOUND     SHAMBLING FEET MOVING AWAY, STUMBLING AFTER ANDY/z     [dude] ANDY/N     Dude!  Come on-- DORIS/z     [distant strident squeal] ANDY/n     Oh, crap! SOUND     SOMETHING WET SPLATS ON PAVEMENT, THEN DISTANT FEET APPROACHING ANDY/z     [strange gurgling warble] ANDY/n     [sigh] I lose more tongues that way. DORIS/z     [strident squeal, closer] MUSIC   SCENE 5.     OUTSIDE NEAR MIA'S BUILDING SOUND     HIGH HEEL SHAMBLE MIA/z     [low moan] GEEK/z     [he speaks clear enough to understand, but still zombie-like] [hey, fingers!] MIA/z     [quizzical] MIA/n     Yeah, what's it to you? GEEK/z     [you got any to spare?] MIA/n     No!  I like mine right where they are. GEEK/z     [get you a good price.  Fingers are always top value.] MIA/z     [sharp moan of anger] MIA/n     Look - these five are my boyfriend's, and this one says-- MIA/z     [fuck you] GEEK/z     [you'll be back [louder] they always come back!!] MIA/n     Damn parts brokers - [jealous] always have the best tongues. MUSIC   SCENE 6.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE [note:  throughout the rest of the show, unless otherwise noted, appropriate zombie noises play under] MIA     [calling]  Hey babycakes! BEN     [off]  Yo sweet thang! SOUND     PLODDING FOOTSTEPS COME TOGETHER MIA     Mm.  Missed you! BEN     Double that. SOUND     DISGUSTING SLOPPY LICKY KISSY NOISES MIA     [mild slurp, then hot]  You are such a good kisser.  BEN     Don't know how I'd get up each day without you to look forward to. MIA     [giggles]  BEN     Let's walk.  Want to show you something. MIA     Oh?  Well, I've got a little time before hitting the old treadmill. BEN     You know I'd support you if I could-- MIA     I like looking after my own needs.  [flirting] Leaves you to look after my wants. BEN     Ooh! MUSIC   SCENE 7.     OUTSIDE, NEAR STORE SOUND     PLODDING FEET MIA     I should have worn more convenient shoes. BEN     Sorry!  Almost there. MIA     What is...it...?  [awe]  Oh! BEN     I thought you might say that.  Just saw them.  Of course, they're not cheap. MIA     [drooling -- zombie noises under get really slobbery] Patent leather, thigh high - oh, I'd never have to take them off! BEN     The heels aren't too high, are they? MIA     [sigh of ecstasy]  I love stacks... MUSIC   SCENE 8.     OUTSIDE, Later BEN     [bummed] I was right, she loved the boots. ANDY     And how much did you say they were? BEN     More than I've had in living memory. ANDY     At any one time? BEN     EVER.  ANDY     Woah.  Well, suppose you can hit the mills like the rest of us schmoes - if you're truly that desperate. BEN     [scoff noise]  The mills?  It'd take me ten years - and they'd probably sell by then. ANDY     What, then?  Go out snatching?  That's pretty much your only other option. BEN     [sighs]  I thought I might ask around, see what I could borrow-- ANDY     Woah, there!  You know Doris holds the purse strings! BEN     If I was going to snatch anyone, I'd snatch her - she's got enough body for three. ANDY     [musing] You know...  That's not a bad idea. BEN     [disturbed] Serious? ANDY     Nah.  I'd fall apart without her keeping me moving.  I guess that's love. BEN     [agreeing hmph] MUSIC   SCENE 9.     TREADMILLS SOUND     HEAVY WHIRRING NOISE UNDER.  DISTANT NORMAL STREET SOUNDS MIA     Hey! OTHER ZOMBIES     [Morning!] [nice to see you!] [Mia!  Looking good!] SOUND     MANY PLODDING FEET MIA     Hey Chuck!  Got a space? CHUCK     For you?  Always, babe.  Wanna lose the heels first? MIA     Brought my work shoes.  Just need a moment at the bench. CHUCK     I'd offer to help, but...[chuckles]  Thank god for velcro, eh? MIA     Hah!  I have all my fingers. CHUCK     [chuckles] Coulda fooled me - [teasing] That looks like your fellow's hand...? MIA     [chuckles]  Jealous? MUSIC   SCENE 10.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE [note - Ben has zombie noises under, geek does not - he always sounds like a zombie trying to talk] GEEK     [Psst.] BEN     What? GEEK     [heard you were having some money troubles.] BEN     What's it to you? GEEK     [I might be able to help you with that.] BEN     I don't think so.  I don't have anything I feel like selling. GEEK     [You got some extra fingers.  An entire hand that looks... spare] BEN     No way. Man!  That's - that's Mia's hand!  I should smack you with it just for suggesting that! GEEK     [Hey!  I don't want no trouble!  I'm just a businessman!] BEN     [spits out the word] Businessman.  You're a parts broker.  GEEK     [Yeah, and we both know you come to me when you need something, then you spit on me when I try to help you out.] SOUND     SHUFFLING FEET START TO LEAVE BEN     Wait. GEEK     [what?] BEN     What - what's in high demand? GEEK     [What?] BEN     I mean, if I was... going to sell something ...just if... what would you be [reluctant, forcing the words out] paying the best prices for? GEEK     [[chuckles] See?  When you need me--] BEN     Cut the crap and tell me. GEEK     [Appendages are always good.  Fingers, noses, ears.  And soft parts, like tongues and, uh.... [suggestive] you know.]  BEN     [gulp] GEEK     [Toes not so much - most just get by without - unless you have a complete foot somewhere - those are collectible, but only in pristine condition.  Eyes are pretty good, and you hardly need two.]  BEN     What about parts that - aren't mine? GEEK     [Stolen parts?  What makes you think I trade dirty?] BEN     Your type always does. GEEK     [[pissed again] My type?  My type?  I think you just talked yourself out of a good deal, pal.] BEN     Shit, I-- GEEK     [incoherent roar, as he leaves] MUSIC   SCENE 11.     TREADMILL AMB - underlying zombies moans, many many plodding feet MIA     [no specific moaning for this speech] Being on the treadmill gives you plenty of time to think.  You stare at the back of the guy in front of you and wonder what's going through his head.  Ben doesn't like the nine to five, but I figure - heck, you gotta do something, and if you feel the urge to walk, might as well get paid for it, right? SOUND     SOMEONE CLIMBS ON THE TREADMILL [vocals have zombie noises under again] TED     Hey Mia! MIA     [sigh] Hi Ted. TED     Funny running into you here.  Shove over? MIA     Right.  Like I don't do this every day.  No room. SHERI     Hey Mia! [warm] Hey Ted. TED     [dismissive] Sheri. [wheedling] Come on, Mia, squeeze in a little.  There's space next to you if you make room. MIA     Sorry, Ted [she's not].  Been saving that for... Sheri. SHERI     Huh? TED     Sheri won't mind - will you? SHERI     I - I guess not... MIA     Oh, no Ted.  We have girl talking to do.  Bye-bye.  Hop up Sheri. TED     Fine.  See you at end of shift? MIA     [muttered] Not if I see you first.  SOUND     TED FLOPS OFF MIA     [up]  I don't know what you see in him, Sher. SHERI     Neither do I.  Pheromones I guess. MIA     Well, he does smell. SHERI     [on an ecstatic sigh] Yes. MIA     [ugh]  Hey, Sher, I gotta problem. SHERI     Oh?  [horrified] You didn't... break up with Ben? MIA     No!  Why would you say that? SHERI     Nothing. MIA     Did you hear something, or are you just worried that Ted might somehow luck out and catch me on the rebound? SHERI     Um.  The second one. MIA     Kinda thought so.  O-K, passing over your insecurity, can we discuss my problem? SHERI     [relieved] Sure! MIA     I found the perfect present for Ben, and I don't know how I'm gonna afford it.  SHERI     You mean...um...what you said he's missing? MIA     Yeah.  All his fleshy parts haven't lasted so well - I keep telling him that sleeping rough isn't good for him, but he hates being cooped up.  Says being nibbled on by rats is preferable to a cage. SHERI     You live in a cage? MIA     He means an apartment.  SHERI     Oh.  Well, I'm sure he looks fine without one.  You see plenty of missing ones out there every day. [NOTE:  they're discussing noses, but it makes it sound like something more suggestive] MIA     I know, but he would - well, from things he's said, he would actually LIKE one.  Make him feel like a new man.  I thought I might get him one of those artificial ones - you know, cast in plastic?  In a skin tone, though - not one of those weird colored ones. SHERI     They're all the rage with the trendoids these days, the neon ones.  I guess they figure if it's gonna look fakey, might as well make a statement.  And some of them get freakishly big. MIA     Well, I found a place to get something real high quality.  Won't look fake at all.  They'll even tint it to match his skin.  And it won't rot or fall off.  Guaranteed to last.  Not even a nibble. SHERI     It won't make him smell any better. MIA     No, but I get the feeling he would be more secure in our relationship if he - well - if he fit more the image he thinks I'd go for. SHERI     Someone with all their parts? MIA     Oh, heck.  I'd love Ben with or without any number of parts, but he seems to think I'd like him better if he actually had a nose. SHERI     [hmm]  I could maybe loan you a little-- MIA     No, this guy charges a bunch.  I'm actually tempted to sell a part or two - something I don't use, or not so much, you know? SHERI     Don't go there.  Starts out simple, a finger here, an ear there, and then - voila!  You end up checking people in at work like "Chuck, the torso" - stuck in admin cuz you got no limbs left.  Or worse - that guy who talks out his neck since he woke up one morning and his head was gone. MIA     [sigh] You're probably right.  MUSIC   SCENE 12.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE AMB     SLIGHT ECHO - AND A DRIP SOMEWHERE SOUND     FLOPPY STEPS IN WATER [note     Tick speaks slowly and has no zombie echo, Ben sounds completely zombie - no voice over - for this scene TICK     You looking for me? BEN     [gasp] [what?] SOUND     STUMBLE FLOPPY STEPS IN WATER TICK     Don't bother - just stand still. BEN     [you're a - an intact?] TICK     And you're a dead lump of shit, but maybe we can help each other. BEN     [moan of acceptance] TICK     Good.  Now stay quiet while I tell you what we're doing here. BEN     [slurpy gasp] TICK     That's disgusting.  But I need a heap like you to front for me.  I have some... parts... to be disposed of, but I can't just wander into maggotville myself.  BEN     [Why me?] TICK     My source says you're tough and desperate.  And stupid. BEN     [stifled annoyed noise] TICK     So maybe he's wrong.  BEN     [I am desperate] TICK     [snort]  Fine.  Here's the deal - I don't give a flying fluck about your crappy corpse cash.  On the other hand, I like having folks - dead or alive - who owe me. BEN     [What you need from me?] TICK     I'll tell you when it comes up.  Right now, I just need this bag of ... parts to vanish.  BEN     [It's illegal.] TICK     [cajoling] They're nice and fresh.  [impatient] Fine.  Clock is ticking.  Tick tock.  Tick tock.  You even remember what "time" is, maggot? BEN     [It's almost Christmas.  [beat] I'll do it.] MUSIC   SCENE 13.     TREADMILL SOUND     TREADMILL, FEET PLODDING SHERI     You ever wonder what they do over there? MIA     [lost in a daze] Hmm?  Over the wall? SHERI      Yeah.  The [awed whisper] In-tacts? MIA     Don't know.  Don't care.  Except for when they come over here and drag off my friends, I say leave them alone.  SHERI     But you do believe in them, don't you? MIA     Believe in them?  What's to believe - we see them marching on the wall, and they're the ones who shell out for us to walk on this damn treadmill day and night.  They're as real as ... as... shoes.  SHERI     Some say we all came from in-tacts, way back when. MIA     [lightly sarcastic] Yes, and a wasp nest in your head is a sign of good luck and not just poor hygiene.  I swear Sheri, you'll believe anything. SHERI     You believe they carry people off, though? MIA     Well, yeah - we've all seen that.  They appear from nowhere, in those dark helmets and suits, and by the time you catch your breath, someone's vanished. SHERI     [awed] I saw one once. MIA     A kidnapping? SHERI     An in-tact. MIA     [half-teasing, half worried] You know, they say if you mentioned them three times, they'll appear out of thin air. SHERI     [agreeing, distant] They are really fast. MIA     [exasperated] Sheri!  Don't-- SHERI     I did, though!  I really saw one.  Not just in a suit and helmet like they usually are, but one right... up... close. MIA     [sighs, feels her pain]  Tell me about it? SHERI     It was a guy, I think, and the funny part is he looked so much like a regular person.  Just that he was so fast and he was - well - he had everything.  His skin was perfect, no holes or anything, and it was this warm rosy color.  I... yearned to touch him, but when I reached out, he turned and ran away.  MIA     [uncertain] That...must have been ....weird. SHERI     [almost teary] It was like I saw an angel, and it saw something horrible in me. MIA     Oh, Sheri-- SHERI     Maybe that's why Ted won't love me?  Because I'm horrible inside? MIA     Aw, Sheri.  [reassuring] We're all horrible inside.  And if anyone's seen an angel here and not realized it, Ted's the one.  He sees you every day and misses out every time he turns his back. SHERI     [sniff sniff] MUSIC   SCENE 14.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE SOUND     BAG PASSED WITH A SQUISH GEEK     [you sure you don't want any of them?] BEN     [upset] I... don't need any girl parts, thanks. GEEK     [Squeamish?  All you had to do was lug a bunch of fresh merchandise here to my humble workshop.] BEN     I've never.... felt... they were so [disgusted] warm. GEEK     [Fresher just means it'll last longer.  Nothing more.  You want your pay or not?] BEN     [down] Yeah. MUSIC   SCENE 15.     TREADMILL SHERI     --you know that guy Sam I was dating? MIA     [worn down] Yeah? SHERI     And how he was always mouthing off about-- SOUND     WHISTLE, END OF SHIFT MIA     [heartfelt] Oh yesss!  What a relief! SHERI     [not getting it] Yeah!  Let's go somewhere - I was in the middle of telling you about Sam. MIA     [almost panicky] Nah, save it for next time - I have to meet up with Ben. SHERI     It's so great to have someone to talk to while we walk - Tomorrow, same time? MIA     [transparently lying] Sure!  Oh, no - wait - I promised I would do this thing with Ben tomorrow. SHERI     What thing? MIA     [panicky, trying to cover] You mean I didn't mention the thing? I--uh-- SOUND     DISTANT ZOMBIE NOISES AND SCREAMS SHERI     What the--? MIA     Come on! SOUND     SLOW PLODDING.  LARGE GROUP OF ZOMBIES GATHERING MUSIC   SCENE 16.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE SOUND      SLOW PLODDING, ONE SET OF FEET ANDY     [distant] Ben!  Ben! BEN     [sigh] SOUND     PLODDING STOPS BEN     Yeah? SOUND     ANDY'S FEET APPROACH ANDY     [panicky] Ben, man, am I glad to see you - it's Doris!  Jeez, she slipped and I think something's broken! BEN     [muttered] Lucky you. [up] What do you mean? ANDY     Her leg - it snapped and now she can't get up!  What am I gonna do, Ben? BEN     Andy, Doris is such a-- ANDY     I know I know.  She gives me hell and treats me like a dog, but what can I do, Ben, I love her!  You gotta help me.  I'll do anything! BEN     Let me take a look. MUSIC   SCENE 17.     ALTERCATION SOUND     LOTS OF SHAMBLING FEET, MOANS MIA     What happened? SHERI     Where's everyone going? FRED     It's one of the overseers! MIA     An in-tact?  What happened? BOB     I seen the whole thing!  He fell off the wall and someone made a grab fer him! SHERI     Oh no! FRED     Oh, yeah!  He's somewhere in the middle of the dogpile there. MIA     Isn't anyone helping? BOB     What are you, some kind of pervert?  This is an [spits out the word] In-tact.  [excited] They're tearing him apart! MIA     We should get out of here! SHERI     B-but - They're gonna kill him! MIA     [sad] I know, and there's nothing we can do about it.  And we want to be out of here before they bring out the big guns. SOUND     DRAGGING, SHUFFLING AWAY FROM THE FRACAS SHERI     But what if he's that same one I saw before? MIA     By now - you probably wouldn't know him.  MUSIC   SCENE 18.     ANDY'S PLACE DORIS     [squeals piteously] BEN     Yep, that's a bad one.  Twisted all up like this. ANDY     Can't we do anything? BEN     I'm no reconstructor.  Maybe some duct tape and a stick? DORIS      [Squeals angrily] ANDY     He's just trying to help, honeybuunny. BEN     Yeah, chill honeybunny. DORIS     [squeals again, sort, sharp, warning.] ANDY     [quiet] You gotta help me, Ben - you're the only one I can turn to! BEN     Jeez Andy... [sigh]  You'll pay me back? ANDY     You know I'm good for it!  Soon as that leg's on, we'll both hit the treads every day til we cover it. BEN     [down] Sure.  I-- ANDY     Yes? BEN     [muttered] I didn't like the way it felt anyway.  [up] Here.  SOUND     PACKAGE CHANGES SLOPPY HANDS ANDY     What - is it? BEN     Enough to get her fixed up - you might go ahead and get her a new tongue while you're at it. ANDY     [very quiet] Oh.  No.  Let's not go completely overboard... MUSIC   SCENE 19.     OUTSIDE, LATER, TOGETHER SOUND     OUTSIDE. SHUFFLING FEET APPROACH MIA     There you are - I was beginning to worry. SOUND     BODY FALLS TO THE GROUND "ben relaxes" BEN     [oof, then] It's been a really... weird day. SOUND     BODY FALLS TO THE GROUND "mia relaxes" MIA     [oof, then agreeing] Tell me about it. BEN     [muttered] I would if I could. MIA     Hmm? BEN     Nah.  Doris broke her leg and Andy needed help with getting her fixed up. MIA     They better get her a good big leg.  She goes through so darn many. BEN     Really? It's happened before? MIA     Every couple of years.  I think the last time was before you showed up here. BEN     I am such a sucker. MIA     Whenever you start thinking like that, just look at Andy.  That'd make anyone feel superior. BEN     You always know just the right thing to say. MIA     Can't help it.  We're in tune.  BEN     Yeah, I guess we are.  About Christmas-- MIA     Don't worry - I love the boots! BEN     Oh, the boots... MIA     But only if you can afford them.  If you can't, I might be able to get them myself.  [sexy] You still get to enjoy them, though. BEN     [grim] I'll get them-- MIA     [sorry] I was just teasing. BEN     Don't worry.  [softening]  Like I said, it's been a really strange day. MUSIC   SCENE 20.     SEWER AGAIN TICK     [really fast] Yeah what? BEN     [slow gasp] TICK     [fast] crap. [deliberately going slower, down to normal speed]  What do you want? BEN     Geek said you have another job? TICK     Not so much a job as a favor. BEN     Need money. TICK     What happened to the packet I gave you before?  Never mind - don't want to know.  [speeding up a bit] Look.  I'm not some magic money tree. BEN     Oh. TICK     [slowing again]  See right now, you owe me a favor - but I can be gracious about it.  You give me what I need, and I will advance you what you need against the next job I give you.  Sound good? BEN     [carefully articulating] You pay now for next job if I do favor? TICK     There you go.  [quick] not so damn stupid after all. MUSIC   SCENE 21.     MIA'S APARTMENT SOUND     ALARM CLOCK SOUND      KNOCKED OFF TABLE MIA     [just like at beginning]  I hate Mondays. SOUND     DOORBELL RINGS MIA     Huh? MIA/Z     coming! SOUND     BAREFOOT SHUFFLE SOUND      DOORBELL RINGS AGAIN, QUICKLY AND REPEATEDLY MIA/Z     Hold your damn horses! SOUND      DOORKNOB FUMBLES, DOOR IS SLAMMED OPEN. SOUND     BODY FALLS MIA/Z     [annoyed] hey! SOUND     FEET MOVE QUICKLY INTO APARTMENT, SLAM DOOR MIA/Z     [scared] Who are you--? SOUND     SUPER-QUICK WHISPERED VOICES IN BACKGROUND VOICEBOX     [mechanical voice]  You were at the altercation near the wall yesterday. MIA/z     uhhh VOICEBOX     Yes or no.  We ask yes or no questions.  Answer yes or no. MIA/z     yesss. VOICEBOX     Did you take part-- MIA/z     NO! VOICEBOX     Did you see any of those who did? MIA/z     [uncertain] no. VOICEBOX     There was another female with you.  Did it see anything? MIA     Sheri? MIA/z     No. VOICEBOX     Please identify this female. MIA/z     No. VOICEBOX     That was not a question.  Identify the female that was with you. MIA     Yeah, right. MIA/z     [incoherent moan] VOICEBOX     Speak clearly. MIA/z     Naaame isss [incoherent moan] VOICEBOX     We are prepared to remove parts if you do not cooperate.  SOUND     STRUGGLE, KNIFE SNICKS OPEN MIA/z     ohh! MIA     No!  that's Ben's! [the hand they're threatening] VOICEBOX     Last chance.  The name. MIA/z     Naaame isss shhh-jerry  VOICEBOX     Jerry? MIA/z     [reluctantly agreeing] Uh-huh. VOICEBOX     Good.  [commanding, disgusted] Let it go. SOUND     BODY FLUNG TO FLOOR MIA/z     [moans unhappily] SOUND     FEET MARCH CRISPLY AWAY MUSIC   SCENE 22.     SEWER BEN     You want WHAT? TICK     Not like you'll miss it. BEN     I-I don't-- TICK     Hey, take it or leave it.  You owe me, but not like I'm gonna wrestle you down and steal it from you.  I got people - and your kind - who can do that for me. BEN     When you need? TICK     [irritated, speeding up] What do you mean when?  You think I don't mean now? [like the crack of doom, slowly and clearly] Now! BEN     Now... TICK     Tick-tock. BEN     [moans uncertainly, then glumly] yeah... MUSIC   SCENE 23.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE MIA/z      [muffled whispered moans] MIA      Psst! SHERI     Mia?  What's with the getup? MIA      Get over here! SOUND     SHUFFLING SHERI/z     [whiny querulous moan] SHERI     What? MIA      Ok, no one can see us-- SHERI     You look like a clown. MIA      Shh!  Sheri, have any of the overseers [gulps] "talked" to you? SHERI     In-tacts?  No! MIA      They found me.  They'll find you.  They want to know who killed that - in-tact - yesterday in the riot. SHERI     Gary?  Why? MIA      No-no-no-no!  I don't WANT to know who did it!  They're asking, and they threatened to cut... off-- [sob] Th-they threatened me!  SHERI     [still not understanding it] Why? MIA      They want to get the one who did it, I suppose!  They'll come after you! SHERI     How will they know to come for me? MIA      [evasive] Well - how did - how did they know to come for me? SHERI     Oh! MIA      So now you're warned - stay away from the treadmill! SHERI     [annoyed moan] MIA     Well, I wanted to warn you.  SOUND     MIA STARTS TO WALK AWAY, STRANGELY LIMPING SHERI     What's wrong?  Mia?  You're limping. MIA     Nothing.  Figured if I can't make the treadmill for a while, I'd need something to live on. SOUND     STUMBLING FEET APPROACH SHERI and MIA     [gasping moans] FRED     [gasp]  Oh, hey!  Don't tell anyone I'm here. MIA      They found you too? FRED     I - I heard they're coming - how'd you know? SHERI     We saw it happen. FRED     Woah!  You better hide.  Least for a while.  They're taking folks again. MUSIC   SCENE 24.     MIA'S APARTMENT  BEN     Mia? SOUND     TAPPING ON DOOR, DOOR CREAKS OPEN BEN     [worried now]  Mia? TED     [off, questioning moan] BEN     You Ted? TED     yeah [affirmative moan, voice getting clearer] BEN     Where the hell's Mia? TED     She took some stuff and left.  What's it to you? SOUND     SHUFFLE TURN BEN     I'm Ben. TED     Ugh!  What the hell does she see in you? MUSIC   SCENE 25.     OUTSIDE, ELSEWHERE MIA     [off a bit]  Ben? BEN     [phantom of the opera cringing noise] What? MIA     Ben - I'm over here. BEN     Mia - don't look. MIA     [almost laughing] What? BEN     Please. MIA     All right.  I'll close my eyes. BEN     Thanks.  SOUND     SHUFFLING STEPS TO MIA BEN     Why are you hiding? MIA     I saw something - there are in-tacts maybe looking for me.  I don't know. BEN     They're just full of surprises, aren't they? MIA     Are they? SOUND     MOMENT OF JUST PLODDING ALONG TOGETHER BEN     Helluva way to spend the holidays. MIA     It is Christmas, isn't it?  [beat]  Can I look now? BEN     No!  [short barking laugh]  I - I know it's silly for me to be vain, but, uh - I lost something. MIA     I got you something! BEN     Don't turn around-- Ohhhh. [disappointed] MIA     [concerned] What happened? BEN     Some guy named Gary needed a new face.  MIA     [concerned for him] I hope you got something good for it. BEN     Actually I did.  Take off your shoes. MIA     [more panicked than should be] No! BEN     Don't worry - I'll carry them for you. MIA     No - I...  I kind of needed to make a trade too.  BEN     Your leg--? MIA     I guess feet with toes are sort of collectable. BEN     Oh.  I hope ... [chuckles]  I hope you got something good for it. MIA     [laughs a bit]  SOUND     STICKY SOUND AS SHE STROKES HIS RAW FLESH MIA     At least you kept your lips.  BEN     Are you kidding?  Had to keep those - they're my best feature. MIA     Well, here's a new one, but I don't know how it will go on - you might have to wait until you have a place to hang it again. SOUND     PACKAGE UNWRAPS, OPENS BEN     It's beautiful. MIA     It's latex.  It won't rot or get chewed on by rats.  I think I got the right color, but now - BEN     It's a fine nose. MIA     Not too big?  I mean, I never saw you with-- BEN     It's perfect. MIA     We should get going.  If they're still after me, we'll have to ... find some place else to-- BEN     Waitaminute.  Now you have to open yours. MIA     Oh, you--! SOUND     UNWRAPPING OF PAPER MIA     The patent leather! BEN     Yeah.  You know, maybe you could brace and stuff them-- MIA     It's just the one foot. BEN     Ok, stuff the one, and still walk on it. MIA     Not if we're going a long way - I don't want these puppies to get worn out on any stupid road trip.  [ecstatic intake of breath]  This is the best Christmas ever! BEN     You know?  I think you're right...  Here, take my hand. MIA     [teasing sweetly] That's my hand. BEN     Come on.  [grunt to help her up] MIA     Which way? [their voices, along with their moaning and plodding footsteps, begin to slowly fade out] BEN     A wise man once said "the sun never sets on those who ride into it".  [the quote is from the end of Shock Treatment] MIA     Which wise man was that? BEN     Um.... MIA     Are we talking like "three wise men" kind of wise man? BEN     Um - no.  I think it was... Richard O'Brien. MIA     Who? BEN     You know, the time warp guy. MIA     Oh, man - I haven't been to THAT movie in months. CLOSER  "The Gift of the Magi" is a famous story by O. Henry where a newlywed couple (around 1900) each sell something to buy the other a present - He sells his watch to get her a fancy hair comb and she sells her long hair to get him a new watch fob.  The entire story is inspired by this.    

About AndyAndy is on a lifelong journey to understand, invent, apply, and leverage technology in our world. Both personally and professionally technology is at the root of his interests and passions.Andy has always had an interest in understanding how things work at their fundamental level. In addition to figuring out how something works, the recursive journey of learning about enabling technologies and underlying principles is a fascinating experience which he greatly enjoys.The early Internet afforded tremendous opportunities for learning and discovery. Andy's early work focused on network engineering and architecture for regional Internet service providers in the late 1990s – a time of fantastic expansion on the Internet.Since joining Akamai in 2000, Akamai has afforded countless opportunities for learning and curiosity through its practically limitless globally distributed compute platform. Throughout his time at Akamai, Andy has held a variety of engineering and product leadership roles, resulting in the creation of many external and internal products, features, and intellectual property.Andy's role today at Akamai – Senior Vice President within the CTO Team - offers broad access and input to the full spectrum of Akamai's applied operations – from detailed patent filings to strategic company direction. Working to grow and scale Akamai's technology and business from a few hundred people to roughly 10,000 with a world-class team is an amazing environment for learning and creating connections.Personally Andy is an avid adventurer, observer, and photographer of nature, marine, and astronomical subjects. Hiking, typically in the varied terrain of New England, with his family is a common endeavor. He enjoys compact/embedded systems development and networking with a view towards their applications in drone technology.Links Referenced: Macrometa: https://www.macrometa.com/ Akamai: https://www.akamai.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andychampagne/ TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: Forget everything you know about SSH and try Tailscale. Imagine if you didn't need to manage PKI or rotate SSH keys every time someone leaves. That'd be pretty sweet, wouldn't it? With Tailscale SSH, you can do exactly that. Tailscale gives each server and user device a node key to connect to its VPN, and it uses the same node key to authorize and authenticate SSH.Basically you're SSHing the same way you manage access to your app. What's the benefit here? Built-in key rotation, permissions as code, connectivity between any two devices, reduce latency, and there's a lot more, but there's a time limit here. You can also ask users to reauthenticate for that extra bit of security. Sounds expensive?Nope, I wish it were. Tailscale is completely free for personal use on up to 20 devices. To learn more, visit snark.cloud/tailscale. Again, that's snark.cloud/tailscaleCorey: Managing shards. Maintenance windows. Overprovisioning. ElastiCache bills. I know, I know. It's a spooky season and you're already shaking. It's time for caching to be simpler. Momento Serverless Cache lets you forget the backend to focus on good code and great user experiences. With true autoscaling and a pay-per-use pricing model, it makes caching easy. No matter your cloud provider, get going for free at gomomento.co/screaming That's GO M-O-M-E-N-T-O dot co slash screamingCorey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I like doing promoted guest episodes like this one. Not that I don't enjoy all of my promoted guest episodes. But every once in a while, I generally have the ability to wind up winning an argument with one of my customers. Namely, it's great to talk to you folks, but why don't you send me someone who doesn't work at your company? Maybe a partner, maybe an investor, maybe a customer. At Macrometa who's sponsoring this episode said, okay, my guest today is Andy Champagne, SVP at the CTO office at Akamai. Andy, thanks for joining me.Andy: Thanks, Corey. Appreciate you having me. And appreciate Macrometa letting me come.Corey: Let's start with talking about you, and then we'll get around to the Macrometa discussion in the fullness of time. You've been at an Akamai for 22 years, which in tech company terms, it's like staying at a normal job for 75 years. What's it been like being in the same place for over two decades?Andy: Yeah, I've got several gold watches. I've been retired twice. Nobody—you know, Akamai—so in the late-90s, I was in the ISP universe, right? So, I was in network engineering at regional ISPs, you know, kind of cutting teeth on, you know, trying to scale networks and deal with the flux of user traffic coming in from the growth of the web. And, you know, frankly, it wasn't working, right?Companies were trying to scale up at the time by adding bigger and bigger servers, and buying literally, you know, servers, the size of refrigerators. And all of a sudden, there was this company that was coming together out in Cambridge, I'm from Massachusetts, and Akamai started in Cambridge, Massachusetts, still headquartered there. And Akamai was forming up and they had a totally different solution to how to solve this, which was amazing. And it was compelling and it drew me there, and I am still there, 22-odd years in, trying to solve challenging problems.Corey: Akamai is one of those companies that I often will describe to people who aren't quite as inclined in the network direction as I've been previously, as one of the biggest companies of the internet that you've never heard of. You are—the way that I think of you historically, I know this is not how you folks frame yourself these days, but I always thought of you as the CDN that you use when it really mattered, especially in the earlier days of the internet where there were not a whole lot of good options to choose from, and the failure mode that Akamai had when I was looking at it many years ago, is that, well, it feels enterprise-y. Well, what does that mean exactly because that's usually used as a disparaging term by any developer in San Francisco. What does that actually unpack to? And to my mind, it was, well, it was one of the more expensive options, which yes, that's generally not a terrible thing, and also that it felt relatively stodgy, for lack of a better term, where it felt like updating things through an API was more of a JSON API—namely a guy named Jason—who would take a ticket, possibly from Jira if they were that modern or not, and then implement it by hand. I don't believe that it is quite that bad these days because, again, this was circa 2012 that we're talking here. But how do you view what Akamai is and does in 2022?Andy: Yeah. Awesome question. There's a lot to unpack in there, including a few clever jabs you threw in. But all good.Corey: [laugh].Andy: [laugh]. I think Akamai has been through a tremendous, tremendous series of evolutions on the internet. And really the one that, you know, we're most excited about today is, you know, earlier this year, we kind of concluded our acquisition of Linode. And if we think about Linode, which brings compute into our platform, you know, ultimately Akamai today is a compute company that has a security offering and has a delivery offering as well. We do more security than delivery, so you know, delivery is kind of something that was really important during our first ten or twelve years, and security during the last ten, and we think compute during the next ten.The great news there is that if you look at Linode, you can't really find a more developer-focused company than Linode. You essentially fall into a virtual machine, you may accidentally set up a virtual machine inadvertently it's so easy. And that is how we see the interface evolving. We see a compute-centric interface becoming standard for people as time moves on.Corey: I'm reminded of one of those ancient advertisements, I forget, I think would have been Sun that put it out where the network is the computer or the computer is the network. The idea of that a computer sitting by itself unplugged was basically just this side of useless, whereas a bunch of interconnected computers was incredibly powerful. That today and 2022 sounds like an extraordinarily obvious statement, but it feels like this is sort of a natural outgrowth of that, where, okay, you've wound up solving the CDN piece of it pretty effectively. Now, you're expanding out into, as you say, compute through the Linode acquisition and others, and the question I have is, is that because there's a larger picture that's currently unfolding, or is this a scenario where well, we nailed the CDN side of the world, well, on that side of the universe, there's no new worlds left to conquer. Let's see what else we can do. Next, maybe we'll start making toasters.Andy: Bunch of bored guys in Cambridge, and we're just like, “Hey, let's go after compute. We don't know what we're doing.” No. There's a little bit more—Corey: Exactly. “We have money and time. Let's combine the two and see what we can come up with.”Andy: [laugh]. Hey, folks, compute: it's the new thing. No, it's more than that. And you know, Akamai has a very long history with the edge, right? And Akamai started—and again, arrogantly saying, we invented the concept of the edge, right, out there in '99, 2000, deploying hundreds and then to thousands of different locations, which is what our CDN ran on top of.And that was a really new, novel concept at the time. We extended that. We've always been flirting with what is called edge computing, which is how do we take pieces of application logic and move them from a centralized point and move them out to the edge. And I mean, cripes, if you go back and Google, like, ‘Akamai edge computing,' we were working on that in 2003, which is a bit like ancient history, right? And we are still on a quest.And literally, we think about it in the company this way: we are on a quest to make edge computing a reality, which is how do you take applications that have centralized chokepoints? And how do you move as much of those applications as possible out to the edge of the network to unblock user performance and experience, and then see what folks developers can enable with that kind of platform?Corey: For me, it seems that the rise of AWS—which is, by extension, the rise of cloud—has been, okay, you wind up building whatever you want for the internet and you stuff it into an AWS region, and oh, that's far away from your customers and/or your entire architecture is terrible so it has to make 20 different calls to the data center in series rather than in parallel. Great, how do we reduce the latency as much as possible? And their answer has largely seemed to be, ah, we'll build more regions, ever closer to you. One of these days, I expect to wake up and find that there's an announcement that they're launching a new region in my spare room here. It just seems to get closer and closer and closer. You look around, and there's a cloud construction crew stalking you to the mall and whatnot. I don't believe that is the direction that the future necessarily wants to be going in.Andy: Yeah, I think there's a lot there. And I would say it this way, which is, you know, having two-ish dozen uber-large data centers is probably not the peak technology of the internet, right? There's more we need to do to be able to get applications truly distributed. And, you know, just to be clear, I mean, Amazon AWS's done amazing stuff, they've projected phenomenal scale and they continue to do so. You know, but at Akamai, the problem we're trying to solve is really different than how do we put a bunch of stuff in a small number of data centers?It's, you know, obviously, there's going to be a centralized aspect, but there also needs to be incredibly integrated and seamless, moves through a gradient of compute, where hey, maybe you're in a very large data center for your AI/ML, kind of, you know, offline data lake type stuff. And then maybe you're in hundreds of locations for mid-tier application processing, and, you know, reconciliation of databases, et cetera. And then all the way out at the edge, you know, in thousands of locations, you should be there for user interactivity. And when I say user interactivity, I don't just mean, you know, read-only, but you've got to be able to do a read-write operation in synchronous fashion with the edge. And that's what we're after is building ultimately a platform for that and looking at tools, technology, and people along the way to help us with it.Corey: I've built something out, my lasttweetinaws.com threading Twitter client, and that's… it's fine. It's stateless, but it's a little too intricate to effectively run in the Lambda@Edge approach, so using their CloudFront offering is simply a non-starter. So, in order to get low latency for people using it around the world, I now have to deploy it simultaneously to 20 different AWS regions.And that is, to be direct, a colossal pain in the ass. No one is really doing stuff like that, that I can see. I had to build a whole lot of customs tooling just to get a CI/CD system up and working. Their strong regional isolation is great for containing blast radii, but obnoxious when you're trying to get something deployed globally. It's not the only way.Combine that with the reality that ingress data transfer to any of their regions is free—generally—but sending data to the internet is a jewel beyond price because all my stars, that is egress bandwidth; there is nothing more valuable on this planet or any other. And that doesn't quite seem right. Because if that were actively true, a whole swath of industries and apps would not be able to exist.Andy: Yeah, you know, Akamai, a huge part of our business is effectively distributing egress bandwidth to the world, right? And that is a big focus of ours. So, when we look at customers that are well positioned to do compute with Akamai, candidly, the filtering question that I typically ask with customers is, “Hey, do you have a highly distributed audience that you want to engage with, you know, a lot of interactivity or you're pushing a lot of content, video, updates, whatever it is, to them?” And that notion of highly distributed applications that have high egress requirements is exactly the sweet spot that we think Akamai has, you know, just a great advantage with, between our edge platform that we've been working on for the last 20-odd years and obviously, the platform that Linode brings into the conversation.Corey: Let's talk a little bit about Macrometa.Andy: Sure.Corey: What is the nature of your involvement with those folks? Because it seems like you sort of crossed into a whole bunch of different areas simultaneously, which is fascinating and great to see, but to my understanding, you do not own them.Andy: No, we don't. No, they're an independent company doing their thing. So, one of the fun hats that I get to wear at Akamai is, I'm responsible for our Akamai Ventures Program. So, we do our corporate investing and all this kind of thing. And we work with a wide array of companies that we think are contributing to the progression of the internet.So, there's a bunch of other folks out there that we work with as well. And Macrometa is on that list, which is we've done an investment in Macrometa, we're board observers there, so we get to sit in and give them input on, kind of, how they're doing things, but they don't have to listen to us since we're only observers. And we've also struck a preferred partnership with them. And what that means is that as our customers are building solutions, or as we're building solutions for our customers, utilizing the edge, you know, we're really excited and we've got Macrometa at the table to help with that. And Macrometa is—you know, just kind of as a refresher—is trying to solve the problem of distributed data access at the edge in a high-performance and almost non-blocking, developer-friendly way. And that is very, very exciting to us, so that's the context in which they're interesting to our continuing evolution of how the edge works.Corey: One of the questions I always like to ask, and it's usually not considered a personal attack when I asked the question—Andy: Oh, good.Corey: But it's, “Describe what the company does.” Now, at some places like the latter days of Yahoo, for example, it's very much a personal attack. But what is it that Macrometa does?Andy: So, Macrometa provides a worldwide, high-speed distributed database that is resident on what today, you could call the edge of the network. And the advantage here is, instead of having one SQL server sitting somewhere, or what you would call a distributed SQL Server, which is two SQL Servers sitting next to one another, Macrometa has a high-speed data store that allows you to, instead of having that centralized SQL Server, have it run natively at the edge of the network. And when you're building applications that run on the edge or anywhere, you need to try to think about how do you have the data as close to the user or to the access point as possible. And that's the problem Macrometa is after and that's what their products today solve. It's an incredibly bright team over there, a fantastic founder-CEO team, and we're really excited to be working with him.Corey: It wasn't intentionally designed this way as a setup when I mentioned a few minutes ago, but yeah, my Twitter client works across the 20-some-odd AWS regions, specifically because it's stateless. All of the state, other than a couple of API keys at provision time, wind up living in the user's browser. If this was something that needed to retain state in any way, like, you know, basically every real application under the sun, this strategy would absolutely not work unless I wound up with some heinous form of circular replication, and then you wind up with a single region going down and everything explodes. Having a cohesive, coherent data layer that spans all of that is key.Andy: Yeah, and you're on to the classical, you know, CompSci issue here around edge, which is if you have 100 edge regions, how do you have consistent state storage between applications running on N of those? And that is the problem Macrometa is after, and, you know, Akamai has been working on this and other variants of the edge problem for some time. We're very excited to be working with the folks at Macrometa. It's a cool group of folks. And it's an interesting approach to the technology. And from what we've seen so far, it's been working great.Corey: The idea of how do I wind up having persistent, scalable state across a bunch of different edge locations is not just a hard computer science problem; it's also a hard cloud economics problem, given the cost of data transit in a bunch of different directions between different providers. It turns, “How much does it cost?” In most cases to a question that can only be answered by well let's run it for a few days and find out. Which is not usually the best way to answer some questions. Like, “Is that power socket live?” “Let's touch it and find out.” Yeah, there are ways you learn that are extraordinarily painful.Andy: Yeah no, nobody should be doing that with power sockets. I think this is one of these interesting areas, which is this is really right in Akamai's backyard but it's not realized by a lot of folks. So, you know, Akamai has, for the last 20-odd-years, been all about how do we egress as much as possible to the entire internet. The weird areas, the big areas, the small areas, the up-and-coming areas, we serve them all. And in doing that, we've built a very large global fabric network, which allows us to get between those locations at a very low cost because we have to move our own content around.And hooking those together, having a essentially private network fabric that hooks the vast majority of our big locations together and then having very high-speed egress out of all of the locations to the internet, you know, that's been how we operate our business at scale effectively and economically for years, and utilizing that for compute data replication, data synchronization tasks is what we're doing.Corey: There are a lot of different solutions that could be used to solve a lot of the persistent data layer question. For example, when you had to solve a similar problem with compute, you had a few options in front of you. Well, we could buy a whole bunch of computers and stuff them in a rack somewhere because, eh, cloud; how hard could it be? Saner heads prevailed, and no, no, no, we're going to buy Linode, which was honestly a genius approach on about three different levels, and I'm still unconvinced the industry sees that for the savvy move that it was. I'm confident that'll change in time.Why not build it yourself? Or alternately, acquire another company that was working on something similar? Instead, you're an investor in a company that's doing this effectively, but not buying them outright?Andy: Yeah, you know, and I think that's—Akamai is beyond at this point in thinking that it's just about ownership, right? I think that this—we don't have to own everything in order to have a successful ecosystem. You know, certainly, we're going to want to own key parts of it and that's where you saw the Linode acquisition, where we felt that was kind of core. But ultimately, we believe in promoting customer choice here. And there's a pretty big role that we have that we think we can help with companies, such as folks like Macrometa where they have, you know, really interesting technology, but they can use leverage, they can use some of our go-to-market, they can use, you know, some of our, you know, kind of guidance and expertise on running a startup—which, by the way, it's not an easy job for these folks—and that's what we're there to do.So, with things like Linode, you know, we want to bring it in, and we want to own it because we think it's just so compelling, and it fits so well with where we want to go. With folks like Macrometa, you know, that's still a really young area. I mean, you know, Linode was in business for many, many, many years and was a good-sized business, you know, before we bought them.Corey: Yeah, there's something to be said, for letting the market shake something out rather than having to do it all yourself as trailblazers. I'm a big believer in letting other companies do things. I mean, one of the more annoying things, from my position, is this idea where AWS takes a product strategy of, “Yes.” That becomes a bit of a challenge when they're trying to wind up building compete decks, and how do we defeat the competition? And it's like, “Wh—oh, you're talking about the other hyperscalers?” “No, we're talking with the service team one floor away.”That just seems a little on the strange side to—some companies get too big and too expensive on some level. I think that there's a very real risk of Akamai trying to do everything on the internet if you continue to expand and start listing out things that are not currently in your portfolio. And, oh, we should do that, too, and we should do that, too, and we should do that, too. And suddenly, it feels pretty closely aligned with you're trying to do everything.Andy: Yeah. I think we've been a company who has been really disciplined and not doing everything. You know, we started with CDN. And you know, we're talking '98 to 2010, you know, CDN was really our thing, and we feel we executed really well on that. We probably executed quite quietly and well, but feel we executed pretty well on that.Really from 2010, 2012 to 2020, it was all about security, right? And, you know, we built, you know, pretty amazing security business, hundred percent of SaaS business, on top of our CDN platform with security. And now we're thinking about—we did that route relatively quietly, as well, and now we're thinking about the next ten years and how do we have that same kind of impact on cloud. And that is exciting because it's not just centralized cloud; it's about a distributed cloud vision. And that is really compelling and that's why you know, we've got great folks that are still here and working on it.Corey: I'm a big believer in the idea that you can start getting distilled truth out of folks, particularly companies, the more you compress the space they have to wind up saying. Something that's why Twitter very often lets people tip their hands. But a commonplace that I look for is the title field on a company's website. So, when I go over to akamai.com, you position yourself as something that fits in a small portion of a tweet, which is good. Whenever have a Tolstoy-length paragraph in the tooltip title for the browser tab, that's a problem.But you say simply, “Security, cloud delivery, performance. Akamai.” Which is beautifully well done, but security comes first. I have a mental model of Akamai as being a CDN and some other stuff that I don't fully understand. But again, I first encountered you folks in the early-2000s.It turns out that it's hard to change existing opinions. Are you a CDN Company or are you a security company?Andy: Oh, super—Corey: In other words, if someone wind up mis-alphabetizing that and they're about to get censured after this show because, “No, we're a CDN, first; why did you put security first?”Andy: You know, so all those things feed off each other, right? And this has been a question where it's like, you know, our security layer and our distributed WAF and other security offerings run on top of the CDN layer. So, it's all about building a common compute edge and then leveraging that for new applications. CDN was the first application. The next and second application was security.And we think the third application, but probably not the final one, is compute. So, I think I don't think anyone in marketing will be fired by the ordering that they did on that. I think that ultimately now, you know, for—just if we look at it from a monetary perspective, right, we do more security than we do CDN. So, there's a lot that we have in the security business. And you know, compute's got a long way to go, especially because it's not just one big data center of compute; it is a different flavor than I think folks have seen before.Corey: When I was at RSA, you folks were one of the exhibitors there. And I like to make the common observation that there are basically six companies that exhibit at RSA. Yeah, there are hundreds of booths, but it's the same six products, all marketed are different logos with different words. And they all seem to approach it from a few relatively expectable personas and positions. I've always found myself agreeing with the things that you folks say, and maybe it's because of my own network-centric background, but it doesn't seem like you take the same approach that a number of other companies do or it's, “Oh, it has to start with the way that developers write their first line of code.” Instead, it seems to take a holistic view that comes from the starting position of everything talks to each other on a network basis, and from here, let's move forward. Is that accurate to how you view the security space?Andy: Yeah, you know, our view of the security space is—again, it's a network-centric one, right? And our work in the security space initially came from really big DDoS attacks, right? And how do we stop Distributed Denial of Service attacks from impacting folks? And that was the initial benefit that we brought. And from there, we evolved our story around, you know, how do we have a more sophisticated WAF? How do we have predictive capabilities at the edge?So ultimately, we're not about ingraining into your process of how your thing was written or telling you how to write it. We're about, you know, essentially being that perimeter edge that is watching and monitoring everything that comes into you to make sure that, you know, hey, we're not seeing Log4j-type exploits coming at you, and we'll let you know if we do, or to block malicious activity. So, we fit on anything, which is why our security business has been so successful. If you have an application on the edge, you can put Akamai Security in front of it and it's going to make your application better. That's been super compelling for the last, you know, again, last decade or so that we've really been focused on security.Corey: I think that it is a mistake to take a security model that starts with a view of what people have in front of them day-to-day—like, I look at my laptop and say, “Oh, this is what I spend my time on. This is where all security must start and stop.” Because yeah, okay, great. If you get physical access to my laptop, it's pretty much game over on some level. But yeah, if you're at a point where you're going to bust into my house and threaten me in order to get access to my laptop, here you go.There are no secrets that I am in possession of that are worth dying for. It's just money and that's okay. But looking at it through a lens of the internet has gone from science experiment to thing that the nerds love to use to a cornerstone of the fabric of modern society. And that's not because of the magic supercomputer that we all have in our pockets, but rather because those magic supercomputers can talk to the sum total of human knowledge and any other human anywhere on the planet, basically, ever. And I don't know that that evolution has been really appreciated by society at large as far as just how empowering that can be. But it completely changes the entire security paradigm from back in the '80s when I got started, don't put untrusted floppy disks into your computer or it might literally explode on your desk.Andy: [laugh]. So, we're talking about floppy disks now? Yes. So, first of all, the scope of impact of the internet has increased, meaning what you can do with it has increased. And directly proportional to that increase the threat vectors have increased, right? And the more systems are connected, the more vulnerabilities there are.So listen, it's easy to scare anybody about security on the internet. It is a topic that is an infinite well of scariness. At the same time, you know, and not just Akamai, but there's a lot of companies out there that can, whether it's making your development more secure, making your pipeline, your digital supply chain a more secure, or then you know where Akamai is, we're at the end, which is you know, helping to wrap around your entire web presence to make it more secure, there's a variety of companies that are out there really making the internet work from a security perspective. And honestly, there's also been tremendous progress on the operating system front in the last several years, which previously was not as good—probably is way to characterize it—as it is today. So, and you know, at the end of the day, the nerds are still out there working, right?We are out here still working on making the internet, you know, scale better, making it more secure, making it more robust because we're probably not done, right? You know, phones are awesome, and tablet devices, et cetera, are awesome, but we've probably got more coming. We don't quite know what that is yet, but we want to have the capacity, safety, and compute to power it.Corey: How does Macrometa as a persistent data layer tie into your future vision of security first as what Akamai does? I can see a few directions, but I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that before you folks decided to make an investment in such a thing, you probably gave it more than the 30 seconds or whatnot or so a thought that I've had to wind up putting these pieces together.Andy: So, a few things there. First of all, Macrometa, ultimately, we see them coming in the front door with our compute solution, right? Because as folks are building capabilities on the edge, “Hey, I want to run compute on the edge. How do I interoperate with data?” The worst answer possible is, “Well, call back to the centralized data store.”So, we want to ensure that customers have choice and performance options for distributed data access. Macrometa fits great there. However, now pause that; let's transition back to the security point you raised, which is, you know, coordinating an edge data security platform is a really complicated thing. Because you want to make sure that threats that are coming in on one side of the network, or you know, in one given country, you know, are also understood throughout the network. And there's a definite role for a data platform in doing that.We obviously, you know, for the last ten years have built several that help accomplish that at scale for our network, but we also recognize that, you know, innovation in data platforms is probably not done. And you know, Macrometa's got some pretty interesting approaches. So, we're very interested in working with them and talking jointly with customers, which we've done a bunch of, to see how that progresses. But there's tie-ins, I would say, mostly on compute, but secondarily, there's a lot of interesting areas with real-time security intel, they can be very useful as well.Corey: Since I have you here, I would love to ask you something that's a little orthogonal to the rest of this conversation, but I don't even care about that because that's why it's my show; I can ask what I want.Andy: Oh, no.Corey: Talk to me a little bit about the Linode acquisition. Because when it first came out, I thought, “Oh, Linode must not be doing well, so it's an acqui-hire scenario.” Followed by, “Wait a minute, that doesn't seem quite right.” And I dug deeper, and suddenly, I started to see a bunch of things that made sense. But that's just my outside perspective. I prefer to see you justify what it is that you've done.Andy: Justify what we've done. Well, with that positive framing—Corey: Exactly. “Explain yourself. How dare you, sir?”Andy: [laugh]. “What are you doing?” So, to take that, which is first of all, Linode was doing great when we bought them and they're continuing to do great now. You know, backstory here is actually a fun one. So, I personally have been a customer of Linode for about 13 years, and you know, super familiar with their offerings, as we're a bunch of other folks at Akamai.And what ultimately attracted us to Linode was, first of all, from a strategic perspective, is we talked about how Akamai thinks about Compute being a gradient of compute: you've got the edge, you've got kind of a middle tier, and you've got more centralized locations. Akamai has the edge, we've got the middle, we didn't have the central. Linode has got the central. And obviously, you know, we're going to see some significant expansion of capacity and scale there, but they've got the central location. And, you know, ultimately, we feel that there's a lot of passion in Linode.You know, they're a Linux open-source-centric company, and believe it or not Akamai is, too. I mean, you know, that's kind of how it works. And there was a great connection between the sorts of folks that they had and how they think about customers. Linode was a really customer-driven company. I mean, they were fanatical.I mean, I as a, you know, customer of $30 a month personally, could open a ticket and I'd get an answer in five minutes. And that's very similar to kind of how Akamai is driven, which is we're very customer-centric, and when a customer has a problem or need something different, you know, we're on it. So, there's literally nothing bad there and it's a super exciting beginning of a new chapter for Akamai, which is really how do we tackle compute? We're super excited to have the Linode team. You know, they're still mostly down in Philadelphia doing their thing.And, you know, we've hired substantially and we're continuing to do so, so if you want to work there, drop a note over. And it's been fantastic. And it's one of our, you know, really large acquisitions that we've done, and I think we were really lucky to find a great company in such a good position and be able to make it work.Corey: From my perspective, one of the areas that has me excited about the acquisition stems from what I would consider to be something of a customer-base culture misalignment between the two companies. One of the things that I have always enjoyed about Linode—and in the interest of full transparency, they have been a periodic sponsor over the last five or six years of my ridiculous nonsense. I believe that they are not at the moment which I expect you to immediately rectify after this conversation, of course.Andy: I'll give you my credit card. Yeah.Corey: Excellent. Excellent. We do not get in the way of people trying to give you money. But it was great because that's exactly it. I could take a credit card in the middle of the night and spin up things on Linode.And it was one of those companies that aligned very closely to how I tended to view cloud infrastructure from the perspective of, I need a Linux box, or I need a bunch of Linux boxes right there, right now, and I don't have 12 weeks to go to cloud school to learn the intricacies of a given provider. It more or less just worked in a whole bunch of easy ways. Whereas if I wanted to roll out at Akamai, it was always I would pull up the website, and it's, “Click here to talk to our enterprise sales team.” And that tells me two things. One, it is probably going to be outside of my signing authority because no one trusts me with money for obvious reasons, when I was an employee, and two, you will not be going to space today because those conversations always take time.And it's going to be—if I'm in a hurry and trying to get something out the door, that is going to act as a significant drag on capability. Now, most of your customers do not launch things by the seat of their pants, three hours after the idea first occurs to them, but on Linode, that often seems to be the case. The idea of addressing developers early on in the ‘it's just an idea' phase. I can't shake the feeling that there's a definite future in which Linode winds up being able to speak much more effectively to enterprise, while Akamai also learns to speak to, honestly, half-awake shitposters at 2 a.m. when we're building something heinous.Andy: I feel like you've been sitting in on our strategy presentations. Maybe not the shitposters, but the rest of it. And I think the way that I would couch it, my corporate-speak of that, would be that there's a distinct yin and yang, there a complementary nature between the customer bases of Akamai, which has, you know, an incredible list of enterprise customers—I mean, the who's-who of enterprise customers, Akamai works with them—but then, you know, Linode, who has really tremendous representation of developers—that's what we'll use for the name posts—like, folks like myself included, right, who want to throw something together, want to spin up a VM, and then maybe tear it down and never do it again, or maybe set up 100 of them. And, to your point, the crossover opportunities there, which is, you know, Linode has done a really good job of having small customers that grow over time. And by having Akamai, you know, you can now grow, and never have to leave because we're going to be able to bring enough scale and throughput and, you know, professional help services as you need it to help you stay in the ecosystem.And similarly, Akamai has a tremendous—you know, the benefit of a tremendous set of enterprise customers who are out there, you know, frankly, looking to solve their compute challenges, saying, “Hey, I have a highly distributed application. Akamai, how can you help me with this?” Or, “Hey, I need presence in x or y.” And now we have, you know, with Linode, the right tools to support that. And yes, we can make all kinds of jokes about, you know, Akamai and Linode and different, you know, people and archetypes we appeal to, but ultimately, there's an alignment between Akamai and Linode on how we approach things, which is about Linux, open-source, it's about technical honesty and simplicity. So, great group of folks. And secondly, like, I think the customer crossover, you're right on it. And we're very excited for how that goes.Corey: I also want to call out that Macrometa seems to have split this difference perfectly. One of the first things I visit on any given company's page when I'm trying to understand them is the pricing page. It's one of those areas where people spend the least time, early on, but it's also where they tend to be the most honest. Maybe that's why. And I look for two things, and Macrometa has both of them.The first is a ‘try it for free, right now, get started.' It's a free-tier approach. Because even if you charge $10 or whatnot, there are many developers working on things in odd hours where they don't necessarily either have the ability to make that purchase decision, know that they have the ability to make that purchase decision, or are willing to do that by the seat of their pants. So, ‘get started for free' is important; it means you can develop right now. Conversely, there are a bunch of enterprise procurement departments out there who will want a whole bunch of custom things.Custom SLAs, custom support responses, custom everything, and they also don't know how to sign a check that doesn't have two commas in it. So, you don't probably want to avoid those customers, but what they're looking for is an enterprise offering that is no price. There should not be a price tag on that because you will never get it right for everyone, but what they want to see is ‘click here to contact sales.' That is coded language for, “We are serious professionals and know who you are and how you like to operate.” They've got both and I think that is absolutely the right decision.Andy: It do—Corey: And whatever you have in between those two is almost irrelevant.Andy: No, I think you're on it. And Macrometa, their pricing philosophy allows you to get in and try it with zero friction, which is super important. Like, I don't even have to use a credit card. I can experiment for free, I can try it for free, but then as I grow their pricing tier kind of scales along with that. And it's a—you know, that is the way that folks try applications.I always try to think about, hey, you know, if I'm on a team and we're tasked with putting together a proof of concept for something in two days, and I've got, you know, a couple folks working with me, how do I do that? And you don't have time for procurement, you might need to use the free thing to experiment. So, there is a lot that they can do. And you know, their pricing—this transparency of pricing that they have is fantastic. Now, Linode, also very transparent, we don't have a free tier, but you know, you can get in for very low friction and try that as well.Corey: Yeah, companies tend to go through a maturity curve evolution on these things. I've talked to companies that purely view it is how much money a given customer is spending determines how much attention they get. And it's like, “Yeah, maybe take a look through some of your smaller users or new signups there.” Yeah, they're spending $10 a month or whatnot, but their email address is@cocacola.com. Just spitballing here; maybe you might want a white-glove a few of those folks, just because not everyone comes in the door via an RFP.Andy: Yep. We look at customers for what your potential is, right? Like, you know, how much could you end up spending with us, right? You know, so if you're building your application on Linode, and you're going to spend $20, for the first couple months, that's totally fine. Get in there, experiment, and then you know, in the next several years, let's see where it goes. So, you're exactly right, which is, you know, that username@enterprisedomain.com is often much more indicative than what the actual bill is on a monthly basis.Corey: I always find it a little strange when I have a vendor that I'm doing business with, and then suddenly, an account person reaches out, like, hey, let's just have a call for half an hour to talk about what you're doing and how you're doing it. It's my immediate response to that these days, just of too many years doing that, as, “I really need to look at that bill. How much are we spending, again?” And I honestly, usually not that much because believe it or not, when you focus on cloud economics for a living, you pay attention to your credit card bills, but it is always interesting to see who reaches out and who doesn't. That's been a strange approach, and there is no one right answer for all of this.If every free tier account user of any given cloud provider wound up getting constant emails from their account managers, it's how desperate are you to grow revenue, and what are you about to do to pricing? At some level of becomes… unhelpful.Andy: I can see that. I've had, personally, situations where I'm a trial user of something, and all of a sudden I get emails—you know, using personal email addresses, no Akamai involvement—all of a sudden, I'm getting emails. And I'm like, “Really? Did I make the priority list for you to call me and leave me a voicemail, and then email me?” I don't know how that's possible.So, from a personal perspective, totally see that. You know, from an account development perspective, you know, kind of with the Akamai hat on, it's challenging, right? You know, folks are out there trying to figure out where business is going to come from. And I think if you're able to get an indicator that somebody, you know, maybe you're going to call that person at enterprisedomain.com to try to figure out, you know, hey, is this real and is this you with a side project or is this you with a proof of concept for something that could be more fruitful? And, you know, Corey, they're probably just calling you because you're you.Corey: One of the things that I was surprised by where I saw the exact same thing. I started getting a series of emails from my account manager for Google Workspaces. Okay, and then I really did a spit-take when I realized this was on my personal address. Okay… so I read this carefully because what the hell is happening? Oh, they're raising prices and it's a campaign. Great.Now, my one-user vanity domain is going to go from $6 a month to $8 a month or whatever. Cool, I don't care. This is not someone actively trying to reach out as a human being. It's an outreach campaign. Cool, fair. But that's the problem, on some level, for super-tiny customers. It's a, what is it, is it a shakedown? What are they about to yell at me for?Andy: No, I got the same thing. My Google Workspace personal account, which is, like, two people, right? Like, and I got an email and then I think, like, a voicemail. And I'm like, I read the email and I'm like—you know, it's going—again, it's like, it was like six something and now it's, like, eight something a month. So, it's like, “Okay. You're all right.”Corey: Just go—that's what you have a credit card for. Go ahead and charge it. It's fine. Now, yeah, counterpoint if you're a large company, and yeah, we're just going to be raising prices by 20% across the board for everyone, and you look at this and like, that's a phone number. Yeah, I kind of want some special outreach and conversations there. But it's odd.Andy: It's interesting. Yeah. They're great.Corey: Last question before we call this an episode. In 22 years, how have you seen the market change from your perspective? Most people do not work in the industry from one company's perspective for as long as you have. That gives you a somewhat privileged position to see, from a point of relative stability, what the industry has done.Andy: So—Corey: What have you noticed?Andy: —and I'm going to give you an answer, which is about, like, the sales cycle, which is it used to be about meetings and about everybody coming together and used to have to occasionally wear a suit. And there would be, you know, meetings where you would need to get a CEO or CFO to personally see a presentation and decide something and say, “Okay, we're going with X or Y. We're going to make a decision.” And today, those decisions are, pretty far and wide, made much, much further down in the organization. They're made by developers, team leads, project managers, program managers.So, the way people engage with customers today is so different. First of all, like, most meetings are still virtual. I mean, like, yeah, we have physical meetings and we get together for things, but like, so much more is done virtually, which is cool because we built the internet so we wouldn't have to go anywhere, so it's nice that we got that landed. It's unfortunate that we had to do with Covid to get there, but ultimately, I think that purchasing decisions and technology decisions are distributed so much more deeply into the organization than they were. It used to be a, like, C-level thing. We're now seeing that stuff happened much further down in the organization.We see that inside Akamai and we see it with our customers as well. It's been, honestly, refreshing because you tend to be able to engage with technical folks when you're talking about technical products. And you know, the business folks are still there and they're helping to guide the discussions and all that, but it's a much better time, I think, to be a technical person now than it probably was 20 years ago.Corey: I would say that being a technical person has gotten easier in a bunch of ways; it's gotten harder in a bunch of ways. I would say that it has transformed. I was very opposed to the idea that oh, as a sysadmin, why should I learn to write code? And in retrospect, it was because I wasn't sure I could do it and it felt like the rising tide was going to drown me. And in hindsight, yeah, it was the right direction for the industry to go in.But I'm also sensitive to folks who don't want to, midway through their career, pick up an entirely new skill set in order to remain relevant. I think that it is a lot easier to do some things. Back when Akamai started, it took an intimate knowledge of GCC compiler flags, in most cases, to host a website. Now, it is checking a box on a web page and you're done. Things have gotten easier.The abstractions continue to slip below the waterline, so the things we have to care about getting more and more meaningful to the business. We're nowhere near our final form yet, but I'm very excited about how accessible this industry is to folks that previously would not have been, while also disheartened by just how much there is to know. Otherwise, “Oh yeah, that entire aspect of the way that this core thing that runs my business, yeah, that's basically magic and we just hope the magic doesn't stop working, or we make a sacrifice to the proper God, which is usually a giant trillion-dollar company.” And the sacrifice is, of course, engineering time combined with money.Andy: You know, technology is all about abstraction layers, right? And I think—that's my view, right—and we've been spending the last several decades, not, ‘we' Akamai; ‘we' the technology industry—on, you know, coming up with some pretty solid abstraction layers. And you're right, like, the, you know, GCC j6—you know, -j6—you know, kind of compiler tags not that important anymore, we could go back in time and talk about inetd, the first serverless. But other than that, you know, as we get to the present day, I think what's really interesting is you can contribute technically without being a super coding nerd. There's all kinds of different technical approaches today and technical disciplines that aren't just about development.Development is super important, but you know, frankly, the sysadmin skill set is more valuable today if you look at what SREs have become and how important they are to the industry. I mean, you know, those are some of the most critical folks in the entire piping here. So, don't feel bad for starting out as a sysadmin. I think that's my closing comment back to you.Corey: I think that's probably a good place to leave it. I really want to thank you for being so generous with your time.Andy: Anytime.Corey: If people want to learn more about how you see the world, where can they find you?Andy: Yeah, I mean, I guess you could check me out on LinkedIn. Happy to shoot me something there and happy to catch up. I'm pretty much read-only on social, so I don't pontificate a lot on Twitter, but—Corey: Such a good decision.Andy: Feel free to shoot me something on LinkedIn if you want to get in touch or chat about Akamai.Corey: Excellent. And of course, our thanks goes well, to the fine folks at Macrometa who have promoted this episode. It is always appreciated when people wind up supporting this ridiculous nonsense that I do. My guest has been Andy Champagne SVP at the CTO office over at Akamai. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice along with an insulting comment that will not post successfully because your podcast provider of choice wound up skimping out on a provider who did not care enough about a persistent global data layer.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

Brent Adamson is the Global Head of Research and Communities at Ecosystems, as well as the co-author of The Challenger Sale and The Challenger Customer. A buyer's experience with a seller, from their ability to show fresh perspectives to plain human empathy, dictates the seller's win rates.  Brent dives into the way companies and sellers should view their quotas and how to get unstuck from a lack of innovation. He also talks about the need for greater focus on buyer enablement to become better sellers, especially during an economic downturn, and new approaches to selling that tap into human emotion. HIGHLIGHTS Buyer enablement: Have a conversation on what's important to them Human empathy is behind every sales interaction The seller makes the difference in a sale Solve not just what you want the customer to know, but also what to feel QUOTES Your reputation and how you show up are the only factors sellers can control - Brent: "Do relationships matter or not? And the answer, funny enough, was always of course they matter. The question is what is the basis of that relationship? Is it familiarity and knowing where your kids went to college? Or is it helping understand your business in ways that you yourself haven't understood it on your own?" Differentiate yourself by bringing your best in your sales interactions - Andy: "You can't predict in advance what's going to be the peak event for the buyer. And so, you really have to bring the best of you every time you interact with them because every one could be the event that was most memorable to them." Understand why someone feels the way they do to change how they feel - Brent: "Ask yourself not just what do I want my customers to know, but what do I want my customers to feel. And that's a superpower." Find out more about Brent in the link below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentadamson/ Website: https://ecosystems.us/ More on Andy: Connect on LinkedIn Get Andy's new book "Sell Without Selling Out" on Amazon Learn more at AndyPaul.com Sponsored by: Revenue.io | Unlock exponential growth with an AI-powered RevOps platform | Revenue.io Scratchpad | The fastest way to update Salesforce, take sales notes, and stay on top of to-dos | Scratchpad.com Blueboard | World's leading experiential rewards & recognition platform | Blueboard.com Explore the Revenue.io Podcast Universe: Sales Enablement Podcast RevOps Podcast Selling with Purpose Podcast

HR 1 John & Andy: You & Recession, Pelosi, Tulsi Gabbard & More Politics 8/2/22 by John Rush

HIGHLIGHTSAndy's early career: from tech to salesThere's not just one way to sell productsDeveloping your own sales strategiesWhat is the role of a sales manager?Selling in vs Selling outConnect with someone on a human levelThink about the buyer's experience of youUsing engineers as sellersQUOTESAndy: "You have to be deliberate and intentional in saying, 'yeah how do I become the best version of myself as a seller'? I don't think it comes from blind obedience from one methodology or another. I think it's taking what works for you and continually pushing yourself to experiment and do new things."Andy: "You want to give people a sense of agency over the choices they make on how they conduct themselves when they're with buyers."Walker: "You have to establish not only what their problems are, but what their opinions are about their problems, right? Like what they think... because the key to understanding is getting their opinions, more than just data." Andy: "At the end of the day, the single most important factor in the buyer's mind when they make a decision is their experience of you."Andy: "Having the customer feel understood is perhaps the biggest source of value that you can provide to them as a seller."Where to find Andy:LinkedInWebsitePodcastBookWhere to find Walker:LinkedInTwitterInstagramwww.walkermckay.com

Andy Champion: Hello everyone. My name is Andy Champion. I’m the vice president and general manager of Highspot here in EMEA. Delighted to welcome you to this latest installment of the Win Win podcast. Joining me today, I’m delighted to speak to Scott Edinger. He’s somebody that I've spoken to before. He is a deep expert in his field, and he advises many companies globally on how to drive consistent growth. He has over 40 articles published in the Harvard Business Review and has contributed to over 50 articles in Forbes. Scott, welcome to the podcast. Scott Edinger: Thanks for having me, Andy. I’m excited to be here and talk with you again. ANDY: Always good to get back together. So Scott, there’s a few topics that I want to touch on today. And the first one I want to start with is this concept of the great resignation. It’s something that I think that, you know, is a topic of conversation with business leaders that I talk to, and it’s been causing quite a stir. Now, I think it’s fair to say there’s been a talent shortage for quite some time now. It’s nothing new. We as sales and revenue leaders have always sought to get the best possible talent. But I think what has changed is the pandemic has caused, I think, a pause in that natural talent lifecycle. It’s caused people to pause and to delay decisions, but as we come out of the pandemic, I think what I’m starting to see is that people are taking this moment to reevaluate their positions, to reevaluate the companies that they work for. But more importantly, I think they’re really taking a long, hard look at the people that they work with and specifically their managers. So I wanted to start there and just get your take on, are people starting to leave companies, or is it really that old adage of “People don’t leave companies—they leave managers”? SCOTT: Yeah, I very much think it’s the latter. I believe it was the people at Gallup, famous for their organizational surveys, who coined that phrase many years ago. I think it might be like 20 years ago. People don’t leave organizations, they leave their managers. And as much as we have this great resignation upon us, as it were, you know 10 years ago, we were calling this the war for talent. And I was reading some statistics about this great resignation and we certainly have much lower unemployment than we have had, but even the total number of people leaving the workforce, while statistically significant, isn’t dramatic, at least in the U.S. statistics I was looking at. So, it’s not like people who need to work are all of a sudden dropping out of the workforce. I mean, there are people who perhaps don’t need to work who are reevaluating. You know, like you said, the pandemic gives us this great pause to say what’s important in my life. And there is, without a doubt, people who are saying, “Look, I’m not going to work” or “I’m not going to work like I was.” And definitely there’s an Exodus from the workforce from that. But people who are either sales professionals or engineers or in technology, whatever their roles are, it’s not like they’ve decided all of a sudden, well, I’m just resigning. They’re going someplace else for something better. And they’re looking for something more from the organizations and I think most importantly from their leaders. So I think it’s very much that latter idea, “What more am I getting from my leader?” ANDY: And I know that that’s a sort of a starting off point for us on a few topics here. And you know, maybe we explore that briefly. When you look to leaders and great leaders, what are some of the core components? What are some of the core behaviors that you see come up time and time again that differentiate the good from the great? SCOTT: Well, it’s been a dozen years since I wrote my first book. I just realized, I was going to say 10, and now I realize it’s actually closer to a dozen. And that book was called The Inspiring Leader. And I wrote that book along with Joe Folkman and Jack Zenger. And one of the analyses that we had done was to identify which leadership characteristics were most powerful—in particular, which leadership characteristics were most powerful in driving engagement and commitment. One would think that this is the key to retention, right? So amidst all of these leadership competencies, one really stood out as strongly important. The book title gives it away: the inspiring leader. It’s the ability to inspire and motivate high performance. Now on the surface that may not seem revelatory, right? It’s like, okay, so someone who’s inspiring—this drives commitment, engagement. I can totally see, you know, we all want to be inspired. We all want to have that kind of leader in the workplace. But when you start to break that apart and say, so what is it that makes a leader inspiring? Then you start to get to some really valuable ideas, especially as it relates to this great resignation, war on talent, whatever the next iteration of it’s going to be. Because again, people don’t leave companies, they tend to leave their managers. So some of the things we found were most valuable was this idea of developing talent. Coaching and developing talent. People were loath to find another opportunity when they worked for someone who invested strongly in their development, who coached them, who helped them to advance in their career. When you find that, even if there’s better companies, you may find yourself in a really wonderful opportunity with that kind of growth—particularly, I’ll say this, if you’re between the ages of—call it 25 and 45. Which, by the way, is where we see most of the resignation happening, some in the 45 to 55 range. But the more concerning part of the great resignation is in the 25 to 45 year-old group. ANDY: And maybe we can unpack that a little bit. You know, I’m fascinated around this concept of the culture of coaching. It really resonates as I reflect on my career and it certainly resonates with many of the individual contributors and salespeople that I talk with. And I think it also aligns with how at Highspot we think a lot about consistent execution at scale: How do we help everybody succeed? How do we help everybody make their best contribution? So I wonder if you can sort of unpack that a little bit for us and talk exactly about what does good coaching look like, and why does it matter so much? SCOTT: Well, when you consider good coaching, you know, it’s usually not in the form of just telling people what to do. Really good coaching is about investing in someone’s development, helping them to get the right kind of training, the right kind of, call it formal education. But then when they’re back on the job, helping them to actually get better at those skills, whether they be selling skills, coding skills, management skills, leadership, even other coaching skills. So if you consider this idea of investing in the initial growth for people, send them to proper training, But then when they’re back from that, how do you engage with them regularly to help them to improve? Are you able to observe them in action? Are you able to give them proper guidance? Are you able to invest your time in helping them to get better at their job? I’ll give you an interesting hypothetical here. So if you are interviewing for a job and the manager that you are talking with shares with you all of the really wonderful elements and all the great parts of the company and their benefits. And, you know, maybe we have a sushi chef here once a month, whatever, the foosball table, whatever these things are. They spend their time on this and how great the company is. That’s interview number one. The second interview includes all of that. But that manager says, “A vital part of my success is investing in your development. So I’m going to spend a lot of time and coaching on you. I’m going to spend a lot of time helping you to get better at your job. That way you can drive greater success.” Which of those sounds more enticing? Both companies may be good, but I think it’s pretty obvious to me, which one I’d want to go with. ANDY: Yeah, for sure. And one of the things that I wish I’d learned earlier in my career was just how big a determinant of my success my leader and their line manager was. I only came to realize that fairly late on, and I think it was a big mess on my part. SCOTT: Well, I got lucky on that one. I’ll share a quick story here. When I was 25 years old, I had the second interview. I had a manager who said to me, “You know, I'm going to really invest in your development, in your growth.” Now, the funny sidebar there is that months after I was on the job—and this person rode me pretty hard on a number of things. His name is John Robens, great manager. Great, great coach. But when we talked about that, he said, “By the way, none of that is altruistic.” He’s like, “I’m not doing that just for the sake of doing it.” He was like, “I want you to grow. I want you to develop. I want you to be successful. But I know if you do that, you’re going to do a better job for me. We’re going to have more success. We’re going to hit our numbers.” There was a lot of things involved with that. So I think if you are a job seeker thinking about this, or if you’re in a job someplace thinking about your manager, or if you are managing others and looking to hire, this is a really wonderful lens to put over the hiring process. And even more importantly, how you do your job, how you go to work every day, really focusing on developing others and helping them to grow. And that really is the key to coaching. ANDY: I mean, there’s no downside for this, as you say, whether you are the manager looking to attract talent or whether you are the job seeker looking for your next role. But you know, there’s another aspect to this, right? And that’s this: What about the people that are staying? What about the people that are remaining in their jobs? This should be applying to them as well. And this could be a conversation that they can have with their manager. SCOTT: If you’re evaluating, leaving someplace, if you are a part of the great resignation, you want something better, it costs you nothing to try to ask for that at your current location. And one of those things can be, “What kind of development is available for me? What kind of coaching? How am I going to get better? Improve my ability to bring value to a job?” You know, you have to believe that ultimately your ability to bring more value equals greater compensation, greater degrees of freedom, all the things that are important to people in this pandemic resignation—whatever moniker we’re going to give it next. ANDY: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. One other aspect of this conversation that I’d be really interested in your take on is the dynamic between the manager and the individual, whether you're seeking a job or whether you’re in a current job. I agree with you asking for that development is really important, but where does the balance lie between me as the individual owning my career development and owning my growth and the manager inputting into that or providing the guidance. Where does the responsibility sit? Is it with me to drive my own career? Is it with my manager? How does that work? SCOTT: Well, I think self-determination notwithstanding, we all have a responsibility for our career and where we’re headed in our career. You know, where you don’t necessarily have the responsibility, if you are an employee, is perhaps to kick in the financial resources—though, bookmark that maybe if you want to. If there’s something special you want to do for your growth and development and maybe a company offset there, or maybe you expect the company to fund it. But I think each of us has to be able to say, “Here’s where I need to grow. Here’s where I want to improve my abilities, my skill sets. These are the competencies or areas of focus I want to get better at or to acquire.” I think we each have to do that, but it can’t be done in a vacuum because you don’t work alone. So being able to go to your manager, to your leader, the vice president, the CEO, whoever that may be and say, “Where do you need more from me?” And how do we come together on a vision for what my improvement looks like, getting to that proverbial next level in terms of skill development, in terms of knowledge, in terms of capacity. And what does that look like? And being able to drive that together. In a good company, managers are doing that in collaboration with individuals who are taking responsibility for their own. That’s ideal. You can imagine there’s plenty of non-ideal scenarios where people are driving all of their own development or the company’s trying to get blood from a turnip and trying to get, you know, lots of growth out of people who either don’t have the potential or don’t want to. We see that plenty too. ANDY: So, Scott, one of the things I remember reading some time ago was a quote by Richard Branson and it went something along the lines of, “Hey, you know, train people well enough so that they can leave. But treat them well enough so that they don’t want to.” I'm really interested in exploring that through the lens of the people that are staying and how we should think about balancing all of this investment in them so that they might actually be able to go and get a better job. SCOTT: Yeah. That Richard Branson character has a good idea now and then, doesn’t he? This is, I think, such an important point, because of all the talk about everybody leaving, the great resignation and the drama of it, it's really easy to forget about everybody who’s staying. They're the backbone of your business. So when I wrote that book, The Inspiring Leader, this notion that inspiring and motivating was one of the top factors in people not leaving their company. And for those who are most inspiring and most motivating in terms of getting the most out of other people, the ability to develop talent was a key factor. The Richard Branson story reminded me of another story of a vice president of customer service, talking with a CFO about significant investment in training and development. And the CFO responds to the VP of customer service and says, “Well, what if we spend all this money on them and they leave?” And the VP of customer service sort of says, “Oh, that’s a good point.” And responds with, “What if we don’t invest much in their development…and they stay?” Really sort of puts a point on the idea. You’ve got a lot of people that are staying. In fact in just about every business you have many more that are staying than are leaving. The people who are staying are the real issue for you. And how are you going to invest in their development, make them better at executing your strategy, make them better at interacting with and providing value for customers? This is ultimately the heartbeat of your strategy: the experience that you provide, not just what you provide, but how you provide that. So making sure that you’re investing in people and their growth is one of the things that I have seen that make people really reluctant to leave a situation, even when there are better jobs available. When they’ve got really great management, they’re growing, they’re developing, they’re stretching themselves, at least as long as the job opportunities are comparable here. The people are reluctant to leave when they’re in that situation. It also has the added benefit of helping you to compete better in the marketplace. So you have this really wonderful synergy of factors here of both making people more committed, more engaged in their work and getting better results. Like the manager, John Roben, who I mentioned to, you said to me, you know, “It’s not just altruistic.” Here is a definite gain for the business here that they're after. And that’s laudable. In commercial enterprise you’re allowed to do that. ANDY: And I really love that because I think there’s some gold dust in there that I want to be very specific about. You know, when typically when we look across a population in a given company, perhaps in a specific role, you see a bell curve of performance, right? You have far more mid-performers than you do low performers and high performers. And I think, you know, the temptation can often be as a manager just to focus on, “Hey, if I can get my high performers to perform another 10% better, that’s where my big output is,” but I think what I’ve seen, and one of the things that we focus on, is actually taking some of that time and shifting your mid-performers up by 5% can actually pay off way, way, way more, because you’ve got so much more of them. The concept that I often talk about is the frozen middle. It's just interesting to me. Does that align with your experience? SCOTT: Yeah, I’d say there’s a couple of frozen parts. You know, typically when people talk about—this is such an important point—when people talk about coaching and performance management improvement, they almost always gravitate to improving poor performance. And that is not what you and I have been talking about here at all. We’re not talking about trying to remediate poor performers and get them to be okay. We’re trying to take, you know, the entire bell curve, like you said that frozen middle, and shift it to the right to improve everybody’s performance. And I’ll say here that the people most likely to benefit from your coaching, who are most likely to contribute that much more to your business results—it’s certainly true in sales and in technical fields where I’ve seen it—are the high performers. And managers tend to say, “I’m just going to get out of their way and let them do their job.” But there’s a ton of value in saying, “No, I’m going to double down here. I’m going to invest a lot of time, effort, energy, maybe money, in helping them to get that much better, because they’re in complex jobs where the value that they can contribute is even greater.” So in everything we’ve been talking about coaching, in my mind, I’ve not been thinking about poor performers at all. I’ve been thinking about average and really strong performers and getting them better because they’re the ones that contribute value. Usually the poor performers we spend a lot of time coaching and investing in performance management with them. If I had a nickel for every time someone got on a performance improvement plan that got off of it and became a top performer, I’d have about 75 cents. It doesn’t happen very often. A lot of effort goes there that isn’t as valuable. ANDY: So as we wrap up, I want, I just want to come back to where we started, and that’s the great resignation. And we’ve discussed the importance of coaching in every situation, how there is no downside for the individual, the manager, or the company. Everybody benefits here. Just as we wrap up, I just want to touch on briefly, what does good coaching look like? And how does that manifest itself in, for example, the sales job? SCOTT: Yeah. Well, I think that, you know, I've drawn from a few different bodies of work for this, but one in particular, Dr. Anders Ericsson, professor of psychology at Florida State University wrote a book called Peak. As in peak performance, P-E-A-K. And most of you listening would not know Dr. Ericsson, but you’ve probably heard of the 10,000-hour rule popularized by Malcolm Gladwell. And that was an extrapolation of the research that Dr. Ericsson had done. I’m going to give you the short version here on what really makes the difference. The short version is, 10,000 hours isn’t the key. It might be less than 10,000 hours. It might be more than 10,000 hours. There’s certainly a significant amount of practice involved in developing expert performance, but there’s no magic in 10,000 hours. According to Dr. Ericsson, who I had a chance to sit down with a few years ago, the real magic is something we’d call deliberate practice. And that has a few conditions that we as leaders and that we as leaders and coaches can apply to our work every day. The first of which is that you’ve got to have a model for success. What does good look like? I’ll share them and then I’ll do a quick brief on each of these. You've got to have a model of what good looks like. And then second, you have to have a chance to practice against that model. You have to try to do it like the model. Third, while being observed by an expert who really understands number one, what great looks like, and then, four: again. So if you think about any instrument or sport—you know, my daughter’s a violinist. She doesn’t listen to a piece of music once to get what good looks like or great looks like. She listens to it a lot. And she watches how the teacher moves their fingers along the frets and uses the bow and everything. And she watches that very carefully and then she mimics it while being observed. And then she gets feedback: what worked, what didn’t work. So she gets that observed feedback on what worked and what didn’t work. Then she goes back and does it all again. And she doesn’t do that once. She does it dozens and dozens of times, I’m going to say hundreds of times, given how much I’ve listened to some practice (delightful in our house). But still, you know, nonetheless, you’ve got to do it a lot, whether it is learning to play a sport or an instrument, or be an effective seller. And you asked me specifically about that. So I’ll go take a quick dive on that. So number one, in sales, you’ve got to have a good model of what success looks like. What do you want your people to do differently? It’s not just generate revenue. That’s the outcome. What are the specific behaviors? From asking questions to positioning your solutions, helping clients to see issues that they hadn’t considered, helping them to understand problems in a different way so that they can develop some kind of insight. These are the things we tend to want salespeople to do. That’s the backbone of every consultative or solution sales course out there. You got to give them that model. I think sending them to a few days of training and expecting them to absorb it and integrate at one time is probably as unrealistic as listening to a piece of music one time and then expecting someone to play it perfectly. So then they’ve got to have the chance to go practice that while being observed by a manager or another expert. And when I say practice that, I’m going to suggest that you don’t want people to practice on your best customers, your top prospects. You want safe environments where they can get it right and make a few mistakes. That’s not great when you’re negotiating million-dollar deals. So you want to have that chance to practice these skills while being observed by someone who afterward can say, “Here’s what good looks like. Here’s what you did. Here’s what I saw. I liked that. Keep doing that. Change this. You remember when that happened with the customer, how you said that and they responded kind of negatively? I think you didn’t ask the right thing there.” Whatever these things start to look like. And then to say, okay, when that happens once, then you’ve got one iteration. And if Malcolm Gladwell said the average was around 10,000 hours, how many sales calls do you need to develop not expert, but at least strong performance? So that gives you a bit of a model. It’s like, have the model of what great looks like, have a chance to practice against that. Be observed with it, get feedback on what worked, what didn’t, and start all over again. You can apply that to any sport, skill, competencies… ANDY: You know, the beauty here that I think as leaders, as managers, our key currency is behavioral change. Long-term behavioral change to help our people achieve their personal objectives, their career goals. And that’s, I think, as we’ve talked about all throughout this, very, very closely aligned to the company goals and the aspirations that we have. Scott, thank you so much for your time today. SCOTT: My pleasure. ANDY: I think what I take away from this is that one of our best defenses as leaders in and around this great resignation is to continue to invest in our people to create that culture of coaching, using tools like deliberate practice to be a core part of that. This is about going deep on the individual and the skills and behaviors that they need. But also as individuals, when we are looking at our careers, when we’re assessing, do we make a move? Do we stay? Let’s look at the environment in which we’re in, put that alongside the companies that we look at, and make some decisions around where are we going to get that investment and that development? Thank you again for your time. I really enjoyed the conversation. I look forward to the next installment. SCOTT: Yeah, me too. Great to talk with you again, Andy.

The CPG Guys, Sri & PVSB, are joined in this episode by Alina Bilger Chief of Staff to the CEOs & Andy Berman VP Marketing Solutions from Gopuff, an immediate needs home delivery business.Follow Gopuff online at: http://gopuff.comFollow Gopuff on Instagram at: http://Instagram.com/gopuff Follow Gopuff on Twitter at: http://Twitter.com/gopuff Download Gopuff on the Apple App Store hereDownload Gopuff on the Google Play Store here To learn more about Gopuff retail media solutions, email andy.berman@gopuff.comAndy & Alina answer these questions:Alina - What were the consumer needs that Gopuff was trying to address with its business model and why did you decide to control the entire experience from browsing through purchase to fulfillment?Andy - You have nearly 10 years of experience at Facebook building its audience network. What has been your focus since joining Gopuff?Andy - How has Gopuff involved brands in creating a compelling customer experience through your service?Alina - What kinds of insights are available to brands selling through your platform and what insights do you look for brands to bring you when presenting new items or conducting business reviews with Gopuff?Alina - Last year, Gopuff decided to acquire a traditional brick & mortar alcohol beverage retailer on the west coast, Bevmo! Would you please share with our audience the strategic intent behind this acquisition and what synergies will benefit your customers?Andy - Brands are always interested in creating awareness for their products and winning search on whatever site their products compete. How is Gopuff enabling this to occur for brands? In other words, where is goPuff on the retail media journey?Andy - How do you counsel brands on investing with Gopuff to grow their businesses?Alina - What are the strategic imperatives that you are pursuing to grow Gopuff and to win more customers to your platform?Please provide the CPG Guys feedback at http://ratethispodcast.com/cpgguysCPG Guys Website: http://CPGGuys.comInstagram: http://instagram.com/pvsbondTwitter: http://twitter.com/cpgguysLinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/company/cpgpodcastMedia Kit: http://tinyurl.com/cpgguysmedia DISCLAIMER: The content in this podcast episode is provided for general informational purposes only. By listening to our episode, you understand that no information contained in this episode should be construed as advice from CPGGUYS, LLC or the individual author, hosts, or guests, nor is it intended to be a substitute for research on any subject matter. Reference to any specific product or entity does not constitute an endorsement or recommendation by CPGGUYS, LLC. The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent. The views expressed by the CPGGUYS, LLC do not represent the views of their employers or the entity they represent.

“I can’t speak for someone who’s never walked a house.”- Andy Speed   The Wholesale Nation Podcast is targeted on giving away all the details needed to be a successful wholesaler, along with direct insights from wholesalers from across the nation. Our hosts, Undrea King, and Andy Speed are the owners of Drayco Properties, a real estate investment company located in Houston, Texas. Undrea has over two decades experience as a business operator and several years as a real estate investor. Andy has been in the real estate game since February 2015 and has a decade’s worth of experience in supply chain management. In the podcast series, the two motivated men have thrown light on the importance of having faith in ourselves to be able to take risks and believe in what we’re doing. Welcome to another take-away episode of the Wholesale Nation Podcast! The challenging times of today have quite caught us into newly introduced virtual wholesaling practices, leaving us with stubborn questions- How to be assessing payers when wholesaling virtually? How do you have that conversation with the seller to be able to get things done right? Join Andy and Undrea today as they offer strategies, tips and advices on managing virtual acquisitions, wholesale repairs and costs, and dealing with sellers fittingly in the virtual world! When it comes to wholesale repairs, there’s a whole list of unknowns that you’ll have to worry about if you’ve never walked a house and this could affect your profit margin significantly. You need to understand that the cost of repairing a 1000 sq. ft. house is much higher than that of a 3000 sq. ft. house- the cost of repairs increases with decreased square footage. If you’re doing a basic update on a newer house- painting, flooring and the miscellaneous, it could cost you some 10 dollars a sq. ft., but if you’re working on big ticket items- the kitchen, foundation, roof, plumbing and AC, it would cost you more. Tip: Andy has his team do it this way:  Set the square footage to the side first, then go off the 10-20-30-40 sq. ft. rehab, and then add in the large ticket items outside of that.   To start with, you need to get an idea of how the house looks like. Tip: Undrea has a way of managing visual acquisitions. He categorizes them into 4→ Lipstick repairs Cosmetic repairs (Dated -Grandma-took-good-care-of-that-house) Moderate (Grandma- was hard on the house repair!) Full (Grandma-died 10 years ago and the house has been vacant)   The one thing that could be appreciated of virtual wholesaling is we make our offers right over the phone based on what the seller is telling us and then get started with the work- giving room to re-negotiations. It’s more like getting to know the seller, then finding out if they have a problem, and seeing if you can solve their problem- there’s a magnified need to build a rapport with the seller virtually! Also get to know today the books that Andy has been into, these days and how effective these could be in your business life. The “Principles” by Ray Dalio is a suggested long read. There’s no dearth of creativity among wholesalers in the COVID season of today- Andy had a wholesaler the other day send him a trailer that they connected to a structure. Yes! Tune in to the complete episode and know better today’s virtual world of wholesaling! If you enjoyed listening to this, and want to learn even more about growing your real estate wholesaling business, please subscribe to the show, comment, and leave a review if you wish to help this reach a larger audience! Also, if you are not a member of the Wholesale Nation Facebook group, now is the time for you to join! Every Friday 2pm Central Standard Time, go to the Wholesale Nation Facebook Group, join in the private zoom room, and get to see how to role play for acquisitions. Absolutely for free!   Quotes:   “Knowing the market is so incredibly important to your success.”- Andy “I care about the house, but I care more about the seller” - Andy “I can’t speak for someone who’s never walked a house.”- Andy “You need to understand the relationships between square footage and cost of repairing.” - Andy “Don't try to be master repair guy estimator” - Undrea “You gotta make a mistake. You learn from it. You move on.” - Undrea   Connect with Andy and Undrea:   Facebook Group: Wholesale Nation Instagram :  @undreaking , @andyspeed_ Website : https://wholesalenation.libsyn.com/ https://www.draycoproperties.com/

“You have to always continually educate yourself.” – Corey Geary   The Wholesale Nation Podcast is targeted on giving away all the details needed to be a successful wholesaler, along with direct insights from wholesalers from across the nation. Our hosts, Undrea King, and Andy Speed are the owners of Drayco Properties, a real estate investment company located in Houston, Texas. Undrea has over two decades experience as a business operator and several years as a real estate investor. Andy has been in the real estate game since February 2015 and has a decade’s worth of experience in supply chain management. In the podcast series, the two motivated men have thrown light on the importance of having faith in ourselves to be able to take risks and believe in what we’re doing.   Welcome to another special episode of the Wholesale Nation podcast! In today’s episode, we have with us Corey Geary and Sylvester Hagan of the Phoenix, Arizona. The episode offers meaningful conversations on a variety of topics, while throughout emphasizing on the importance of learning from your experiences and analyzing your short-comings. Corey and Sylvester have shared their learnings from the business, growing it from getting some 6 deals a month to 27 and 30 deals presently! Having and knowing good people in your circle is a crucial part of wholesaling. Also, we have our guests making us know that oftentimes, buyers educate us a lot and dealing with different types of people builds our learning potential. Wrong pricing happens to be one strong reason to tasting failures. And when it comes to the business, most of the time the seller you deal with already knows your pricing, as Undrea says. Corey and Sylvester discuss everything from acquisitions to dispositions, getting pictures done, the selling process, the percentage of sales in different phases, fall-off rates and also about handling the morale in the office after failure. They discuss how they sell properties step by step, while also telling us that most of sales happens in their first phase: Pulling all the flippers in Popstream Going through the first 8 pages of realtor.com Getting the nationwide realtor list from real-estate-agent-lists.com Finding a JV partner in the market to work with So for those of you starting with the real-estate business, Popstream is a very relevant platform to go to. Corey and Sylvester are very clear of what they do and where they stand, and hence can foresee their business in the next 1 and a half years. When questioned, they give strong figures of profit and expansion which they are sure to achieve, considering the amount of input they have put into the business. They say that people create metrics when they fail and say that they’ve often pushed themselves too hard for the business. Another thing to take-away could be the value point of not getting comfortable with the same people and same level of business you stand today, you need to grow every day. Looking back, Corey and Sylvester have advices to offer for their immature businessmen selves. Corey would better ask himself to learn to be a good listener, and build on the marketing aspect of the business. Sylvester would learn to be better at dispositions and would rather learn to deal with the realtors first as he thinks back. The duo have also spoken about learning each other through the times and have also offered to share their morning routine with the listeners, which is definitely a valuable learning to start with. To also know more about understanding, supporting and adapting to each other’s personal goals, tune into the complete episode! If you enjoyed listening to this, and want to learn even more about growing your real estate wholesaling business, subscribe to the show, comment, and share with us your ideas, and leave a review if you wish to help this reach a larger audience!     Quotes:   “Our dispositions are our sales as well.” – Undrea “There’s no reason to take 6 months to learn and get your masters in wholesaling.” – Andy “You need to learn from every single mistake.” – Corey “You have to always continually educate yourself.” – Corey “You have to be around like-minded people, people who are playing a higher level than you and understand your failures that you go through.” – Corey “If you’re looking for a mentor, make sure he’s doing deals.” – Corey “The unknown is always there as an entrepreneur.” – Sylvester “Growth is in the uncomfortable space.” – Sylvester     Connect with Corey and Sylvester:   Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/corey.geary.7                     https://www.facebook.com/sylvester.hagan   Connect with Andy and Undrea:   Facebook Group: Wholesale Nation Instagram :  @undreaking , @andyspeed_ Website : https://wholesalenation.libsyn.com/      https://www.draycoproperties.com/

“The difference that you bring to the table is you.” – Undrea King   The Wholesale Nation Podcast is targeted on giving away all the details needed to be a successful wholesaler, along with direct insights from wholesalers from across the nation. Our hosts, Undrea King, and Andy Speed are the owners of Drayco Properties, a real estate investment company located in Houston, Texas. Undrea has over two decades experience as a business operator and several years as a real estate investor. Andy has been in the real estate game since February 2015 and has a decade’s worth of experience in supply chain management. In the podcast series, the two motivated men have thrown light on the importance of having faith in ourselves to be able to take risks and believe in what we’re doing.   Welcome to another worthy episode of the Wholesale Nation podcast! Today’s show gives you a lot of key tips to take away to become experts in the business if you are an unsure yet passionate business person. Undrea and Andy discuss on a challenging area of bringing about positive mindset shifts in wholesalers by guiding you through the stages and helping you get a better understanding of yourself. Citing instances from their personal journeys, and genuinely putting forward their doubts and challenges in the process, they get you to take away capsules of knowledge from this conversation. It is totally natural for budding wholesalers to compare themselves with the established ones in the business, and self-doubt and dying motivation could then follow. A lot of your counterparts could be ruling the market and you would be standing there counting on your failures. This could perhaps lead you into doing stuff you don’t want to, like running around making that perfect ‘business card’! You need to let nobody take away your joy and purpose. You need to consider competition positively and constructively. Undrea has in the episode shared with us the times when he couldn’t get into the position to do what he was supposed to be doing and how it was difficult for him to not look at the others who’d been in the business for years. That perhaps, happened because he failed to think about and acknowledge the stress and sweat. He says, most people tend to overestimate what they can do in a year and underestimate what they can in 5 years and hence, makes understand how keeping long term goals has helped him stay realistic about his goals. There are 3 main qualities a wholesaler requires to build: The ability to sell The ability to market The ability to take up the ‘ad-man’ job Andy has discussed on the need to build on your basics and improve yourself bit by bit every single day. Growth and competition should actually be with your own self and it has always been so, and the core value, of the podcast series and of your own self is to get better every day, whether it’s a 25 percentage improvement of your skills and expertise or a 10 percent advancement, valuation and understanding of your knowledge is key to progress. You need to know yourself and what you’re good at and then develop on your skills, self-evaluation is important. Andy explains that you can always start with whatever you have and wherever you stand in the business, and that not delaying the start should be the most important thing to you. He finds having somebody to guide you through the business to play a positive role in setting your business right. You need to be making certain number of offers every day and also market your sales to start with. You should be able to do better tomorrow than you can today. Value points to start with: Start where you are Analyze where you are Figure out the plan to get there Have you been wanting to know how crucial it is to understand and grow yourself first to succeed in your business or how to be competing with yourself? The duo have proven answers! Tune in to the episode and learn to get to know yourself better! If you enjoyed listening to this, and want to learn even more about growing your real estate wholesaling business, subscribe to the show, comment, and share with us your ideas, and leave a review if you wish to help this reach a larger audience!     Quotes:   “You don’t become an expert overnight.” – Undrea “The basics is, don’t talk to some people.” – Andy “You see the glory but you don’t see the story.” – Undrea “In all things, you’re really in competition with yourself.” – Andy “The difference that you bring to the table is you.” – Undrea  “We fail every day, we fail all the time.” – Andy “They’re not above you, they’re just ahead of you.” – Andy     Connect with Andy and Undrea:   Facebook Group: Wholesale Nation Instagram :  @undreaking , @andyspeed_ Website : https://wholesalenation.libsyn.com/

You are a leader. Whether it be within the context of your family, work, church, neighborhood, or school, someone is looking up to you. Since you are a leader, how do you lead better? Each month, we'll explore a topic on how you can lead better. This month, we talk about how to lead your family. Join Pastor Andy Bondurant and his guest, Jennifer Green, as they discuss how you lead in the midst of trials and tribulations. We talk about how brokenness can actually be a gift, the need for others walking with us and speaking into us, and the willingness to start where you are at. Pastor Andy ends the discussion with 3 Ways and 3 Resources to Lead Your Own Trial. Scripture References: Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 Ephesians 6:12 Psalms 61 Resources: Carey Nieuwhof - I Didn't See it Coming Contact: Have a comment, question, or topic suggestion for Andy? You can reach him at: podcast@crosspointschurch.com To learn more about Cross Points, check out our website: http://crosspointschurch.com To stay up to date, check out our social media: Instagram: @crosspointskc Facebook: @crosspointskc Spotify: CrossPointsKC

What’s the nicest thing you’ve ever done for your coworkers? In this episode of Punch Out with Katie and Kerry, we talk with Andy Crestodina about the way he celebrates employee milestones, freezing his own popsicles, and his world travels. This is a completely different conversation than Andy's ever had on a podcast! He's the CMO and co-founder of Orbit Media and author of 'Content Chemistry.'  In this episode we learned: Which paper mâché animal is his favorite one to make Who gets the dragons and dinosaurs Why he makes his own popsicles Where he learned to dive His favorite Chinese proverb Want to know more about Andy? You can find him at: Website: https://www.orbitmedia.com/ Twitter: @crestodina This episode is sponsored by the HELLO Conference.  What are you doing on October 22, 2020? You should be attending the HELLO Conference where marketers learn to be human at scale in the age of machine marketing. The speaker line up includes experts from SalesForce, Amazon, Trust Insights, and Firespark. Attendees have a unique opportunity to glean actionable insights on intelligent tools and the future of marketing from professionals who work with the world’s top brands. Tickets available at: https://bsquared.media/helloconference/  Punch Out with Katie and Kerry is the show that dives deeper into topics you care about. We don't ask the questions everyone else does. We get to the real insights (and the weird hobbies, the guilty pleasures, the secret side hustles...the good stuff)! We find out what really makes your favorite folks tick. Punch out with Katie and Kerry! Have a cool hobby or side interest you want to talk about on Punch Out with Katie and Kerry Let us know:  Website: www.punchoutwithus.com Email: punchoutwithus@gmail.com Hosts: Kerry O’Shea Gorgone @KerryGorgone  & Katie Robbert @katierobbert

Cait Raft: “It hurts Andy..It really hurts because they like don’t understand what it’s like to be a girl out there on your husband's birthday...to exist on your husband's birthday, like to even be alive. It’s like so hard on you as a spouse —so much stress.” Andy Cohen: “Tell us about the stress Cait, what things were you planning for Jacks big day?” Cait: “Well like nothing really, but I have like so much to do everyday already: I have to remember to breathe, to make sure all the oxygen is going to the right places, make sure my blood cells are flowing right, make sure that i’m sending the right electrical signals to my organs...It’s a lot! I’m not like these other girls y’know, I don’t have an autonomic nervous system to fall back on. I’m 100% self-made, 24/7” Andy: “You...you don’t have an autonomic nervous system?” Cait: “No I told you last season Andy, I got rid of it! That thing with Sensei Dan—” Jack Allison: “—Absolutely, Cait’s been grinding non stop with Sensei Dan, and a little while ago he told her that in order to unlock her true Chi levels, she would have to learn to control all the internal functions of her body manually, and she...well she like—did it! and she’s got untold power now, she’s like the top—” Cait: “—like in the top 3 most powerful Chi users I think he said.” Jack: “See? Look at that, top three!” Cait: “And I can control when I poop and pee —and my period too.” Andy: “Ah...” Cait: “And that’s what just makes it hurt worse Andy y’know like, I'm practically a demi-god now and like I can’t even enjoy my hubbys freaking b-day without haters, coming out of the freaking woodwork saying I wasn’t in CakeWars, or wasn’t in this—wasn’t in that. When I actually like, really was...Ugh! this whole thing seriously just makes me...” *The lights flicker on and off* Cait: “Makes me so…” *The ground shakes, equipment falls over* Jack: “Honey, honey —breathe.” *Caits eyes go white and she levitates out of her chair, electricity crackles around her* Andy: “Uuh, okay everyone thanks for tuning in to this seasons JackAm Reunion, see you next—” Cait: “—Angry!” *A large flash of light blankets the room* Topics Discussed on Today’s Episode: Jack’s Bday, Lyin Liz, Cait-CakeWars, GunGirl, Biden, Bye-Bye Boyscouts and Bernie Bro Terror!! VOD link for this episode here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/553961013

A private equity firm is in the business of buying, growing, and exiting companies, hopefully for more than they bought it for. For every industry there is a private equity firm out there. As private equity diversifies, what are the key trends changing the nature of the deal? Today we are discussing where private equity firms come into play in the buying and selling space. Today's guest, Andy Jones, is the founder and owner of PrivateEquityInfo, a private equity database that helps investment bankers and private equity firms close more deals by taking a look at the top trends to look out for when scouting an acquisition target. One major trend we discuss is the holding periods for private equity and how those can often reveal the direction of the overall economy. Studying these and other trends are useful for potential buyers to understand what to look out for in an acquisition deal. Episode Highlights: Andy's history with Private Equity Info. A look at a typical private equity deal. What sellers should know about the private equity industry. Buyers don't want the ugly marbles. Why buyers prefer asset deals over stock deals. What ebita sizes private equity firms are looking for and why the size requirements are in place. Smaller ebitas and add-on investment trends in the private equity arena. Why larger acquisitions still make more sense. Best ways to find the private equity for your business. We touch on the topic of microfunds; what they are and how they work. Typical deal structures that Andy comes across. Why business founders don't have the same appetite for risk as PE firms. The typical holding period before an exit. How long is it? Exuberance trends typically show up when those holding periods experience a decline. Andy shares his top ten trend list for 2018. Transcription: Joe: Mark, I understand you had a great conversation with Andy Jones from PrivateEquityInfo.com. Mark: Yeah private equity is one of these things that buyers and clients that we talk to and even … I'm sorry sellers and clients that we talk to and buyers as well often ask us about. Is private equity buying online businesses? Are they buying Amazon businesses? Are they buying SaaS businesses? Where do they start buying? When do they … what are the lines for it? How does it work? Andy Jones is somebody that I've known now for probably seven, eight years. He's always been very primed by complimenting me on the content we put out. So anyone that complements me is immediately somebody I like and so we talked about having him on the podcast- Joe: Hold on just a second, you're awesome Mark. You're a really good guy and I'm proud to be your partner. Mark: I thought you're stopping the podcast here. Joe: No, I'm just complementing you; that's all. Like you see I just wanted to be liked by you today. Mark: Okay well continuing … thank you, Joe. We will talk about increasing your equity stake in Quiet Light Brokerage after this call. Joe: Awesome. Mark: It's kind of easy guys, it's really that easy. And so Andy has PrivateEquityInfo.com. It's a fantastic database of private equity activity across the spectrum. So anything from manufacturing to the online world but something that they do at PrivateEquityInfo.com is they take a look at the trends and what is going on in the world of private equity and these can be leading economic indicators. And he gave me one trend in particular, I'm going to let him get into the details of it but it's the holding period for private equity. Because private equity, what they typically do for anyone that may not know that they're going to make a lot of investments with the goal of growing these businesses but then exiting these businesses as well or at least a portion of these businesses that they're building up. And the holding period, how long they hold them can really tell us a lot about the direction of the economy and what to anticipate next. And so they look at this holding period, the average number of years that a private equity is hanging on to business before they exit it. Right after the recession that holding period went up to like a number of I think it was like eight or nine because they bought at the peak and they had to wait for the economy to recover before they could exit. So I'm going to tease here and just say listen to the podcast to see what the average holding period is right now, what number we want to look out for to be able to understand okay maybe the economy is going to start to retract a little bit and use that for the decisions we want to make. Joe: This is going to be fascinating. I think we're going to learn about the future of the economy here as well. Hey before we move to the podcast I just want to give a shout out to Mike Nuñez from affiliate manager. Mike, you're probably out riding your bike right now listening to this podcast, I appreciate all the positive feedback you've given us in the last few months. Thank you very much. Let's go to the podcast with Andy Jones. Mark: Andy thanks for joining me. Andy: Thanks for having me. Mark: All right let's start off with a little bit of background on yourself and where you come from. I'll let you do that part. Andy: Yeah I'd be happy to. So my name is Andy Jones. I'm the founder and owner of Private Equity Info. We're an Austin, Texas based company. We own several websites but our flagship website is really PrivateEquityInfo.com and this is where we provide and emanate research database that helps investment bankers and private equity firms and even the corporates close more deals. So I have an engineering background and investment banking background that's kind of what lead me onto this journey of entrepreneurship 14 years ago. Mark: Yeah pretty cool and you are one of the people … I will confess you feed my ego whenever we send out messages by saying really great content Mark. I'm like hey, I like this Andy guy. Andy: Yeah yeah. Mark: Good stuff, I like that. Well cool. We're going to talk about private equity today because you have PrivateEquityInfo.com and really good information through that site. How long have you had that now? Andy: So yeah we launched 14 years ago, January of '05 so this year is our fourteenth. Mark: I remember when everybody's site is full. It was like three, four years old and somebody who had like an eight year old site it was like ancient. Andy: I know I'm that guy. Mark: You know you're that guy right? I own a 20 plus year old site and then Quiet Light Brokerage this is going to be our 11th anniversary coming up next month. Andy: Wow. Mark: Actually by the time this episode airs we've surpassed 11 years so … really really cool. So again private equity was what we're going to talk about today. We get this question all the time from buyers. People want to know things like who's buying online businesses and would private equity be interested? At what levels are private equity interested in and how do those deals sort of differ from other deals? And you've got a pulse in the industry more so than anybody else that I know so I thought hey let's talk about this. I think this is- Andy: Sounds good. Mark: -sort of thing to go into. So let's talk about just kind of the typical private equity deals from what you are seeing and from your experience. I mean what is a good intro for somebody who owns a business that might be thinking about selling and they think well maybe private equity would be interested? What should they know about this industry in general and the different PE firms out there? Andy: Okay. Well, that's a pretty broad question; let me see if I can tackle it from the few angles there. So I'm going to come at this from the assumption that there is some general knowledge of private equity but maybe some inexact knowledge and I'll just kind of ram a little bit and we can flesh it out. But essentially let me just start with the basics what a private equity firm is. A private equity firm, they're in the business of buying growing and exiting companies for hopefully more than they bought it for. And the way they do that is they typically raise a fund through their limited partners. And limited partners are typically institutional money, pensions and retirements, high net worth individuals, [inaudible 00:06:43.1] and such. They raise a fund that has a 7 to 10 year lifetime and the private equity firm then puts that money to work by buying companies. And their hope is to grow those companies, produce cash flow, and exit at a good return on investment for their limited partners and also for themselves. So that's kind of the mechanism of how they work. We can create … we can talk about how they create value later if you want to but you know is a private equity firm the right buyer for your company? Well now that depends on a lot of factors; primarily size but also industry. So by way of size, there's a huge range of private equity firms out there and they go from billions of dollars of interest in price value, company size down to single digit millions. And so there's a long tale of the firms out there. But at some point, the transactions get small enough that it's not really just logistically practical to make investments of small sizes for a platform investment. But I will also say that for add-on investments, you know private equity firms often have this model whereby they buy a platform investment and then we have add-on investments to it. Most private equity firms have size criteria for platforms but for add-ons, it can be more strategic interest rather than size. And so usually there's not a lower limit on the add-on acquisitions. Process size is one limitation, geography being another, and industry. If you have an industry there is a private equity firm interested in it. There's a lot of private equity firms out there. The trick is finding which ones are interested in your company and that's where we come in. Mark: Yeah so I want to talk a little bit about these different sizes because we … as a broker I get these emails all the time from private equity firms that are out there. They're reaching out to just these large databases of brokers and they typically are saying hey we're looking for investment opportunities in manufacturing with this, that, the other thing. A lot of times it just does not fit what we do at all. Obviously, there's no reason but they always list a minimum EBIDTA that they want to see. And typically what we're seeing from the ones that reach out to us would be EBIDTAs of a minimum of 10 million, 5 million, 2.5, and in some rare cases 1 million but almost never below that. Andy: That sounds about right. Mark: Yeah. So what do you see with that? I mean, first of all, I think we can ask the question why, [inaudible 00:08:58.2] the listeners of everything we're all … it's obvious but for those that may not be cashing out of that why do they have these size requirements in there? And then second of all if you comment on that breakdown I mean are private equities looking for these [inaudible 00:09:10.6] smaller in the world of bootstrapped entrepreneurs a million dollars EBIDTAS is a decent deal but for private equity firm that's tiny little bits of money there. How does that break down? Andy: Yeah let me answer those in reverse. So the spread you kind of set it right. Yeah most of them are 10, 25 million in EBIDTas that's for the bigger firms. In the upper middle market, firms are going to be and middle market firms is targeting down the 5 million down to 1 million in EBIDTA [inaudible 00:09:36.7]. But there are firms that will do it. And I think really the trick there is if you're operating in that size range, the trick is not to be considered a platform investment. You want to be considered an add-on investment. And the single best way to find the right private equity firm for your company if you're selling it and if you're down in that range … even half a million, a million dollars in EBIDTA it's getting pretty low. But it is to use a database like ours to keyword search based on keywords that describe your company the portfolio companies that are owned by private equity firms and we allow you to do this. You can search almost 80 … I guess a little over an 80,000 of them now and find those portfolio companies that are currently owned by private equity firms and that is … yeah, they look like your company. So that's the single best gauge to determine a private equity firm's fit or interest in your firm and your company is if they've already made a platform investment and you might be a likely add-on. So that's the process I would go about to discover the sort of rifle shot hits that you're looking for and you can use a tool like ours to find that. Why the size limitations? Well, they have a fund and they have to deploy that money. And if you have a hundred million dollar fund and you're deploying it at single digit millions at a time it is too much work. You'll never get it deployed. And that's really just driving your limitations there. Mark: Right. I think we have addressed this at the podcast topic a while ago on should you buy big or should you buy small. I've addressed this topic in a number of times as well where if you have the resources available to be able to run a larger enterprise from just making your dollars work; the larger acquisitions make so much more sense. The workload, the resources that go into a lot of internet companies doesn't really scale at the same rate as the revenues do. And so it makes sense to do that. So for a private equity firm to come in and try and buy out a company doing 250,000 in EBIDTA just doesn't make much sense. They're not going to reach the goals that they're looking for. And also the capitalization rights, I mean how large are these private equity firms when … how much capital are they trying to deploy through acquisitions? Andy: It really depends on the firm. You know if you wanted to … I don't know off the top of my head but I've done studies on this based on our data. And I've done some data size and probably shoot to our blog. So if people want to visit our blog you can read more about it but it's very typical to have fund sizes and it'd be hundreds of millions of dollars. Mark: Right. So let me take a little bit of a diversion real quick. I want to ask you a question that a trend that I've seen in our space here in the online acquisitions space, I call them micro funds because I don't really have another word for them. Andy: Okay. Mark: But these people that are raising 10 to 15 to 20 million dollars and they're doing it following that private equity sort of model of bringing in those investors. Their goal is to bring in a few companies, have some synergies between those companies, grow them, and hopefully sell them off. Are you guys tracking those at all at this point? Andy: So at that level what we typically see is a firm that has raised capital because they have an operating partner with very specific industry experience and they're looking to buy a company or two. In that case, they're likely not in our database and it's not because we don't know about them, it's just for fit reasons. Most of our customers that we serve are middle market investment bankers and because of that, we want to provide them a data set of firms that are likely going to close the deal. And if you're buying one or two companies the probability of you closing that deal is pretty small especially if you've already closed one. Mark: Right. Andy: So the firms in our database are only those firms that have committed capital that are closing deals in the marketplace. Or sometimes they're from a sponsor but they have to demonstrate that they're actually closing deals. Because at the end of the day investment bankers and firms like yours you want to close a deal so you want to make sure that the people that you're approaching from our database have some probability of making that happen. Mark: Yeah that makes complete sense. All right let's talk a little bit about … and again you've said this a couple of times so I'm going to reiterate it but talk in generalities when I'm asking you some of these questions. Every firm operates differently. Some like the sort of incubator method … you really it's going to be different from one from the next but I want to talk about typical deal structures. And let's say that we have somebody who … they built up a company and let's say that they're in that seven figure EBIDTA range or low eight figure EBIDTA range as well. I know I'm working with people on that low eight figure EBIDTA range, they're looking for an exit down the road and they're definitely in that private equity territory where that's what makes most sense. Andy: Okay. Mark: So when you're approaching private equity firms with a business … let's just focus mainly on the seven figure EBIDTA range, the one to five million, say that we have some people there, some PE firms there. What sort of deal structures do you typically see? Are they completely asset based acquisitions, are they stock, are they management buy-outs with the managers staying on and if there's no general rule that's fine too of course. Andy: There's no general rule but there are some factors as you know that sway the rules. Let me organize my thoughts on how to answer that. So asset deals versus equity deals, there's no all encompassing rule for that. Generally speaking, let me just sort of educate the audience a little bit and there's a good analogy for this. If you think about your company as a bag with a bunch of marbles in it and marbles are the assets, buyers like to come in and pick out the marbles they want. That's an asset deal. I want this marble, this marble, and this marble and that's what I want; that's an asset deal. You keep the corporate entity and all the other marbles I don't want. Whereas a start deal … equity deals says I will just buy the bag and all the marbles in it; good, bad and ugly. Well as a general rule, buyers prefer an asset deal and sellers prefer start deals because it's just [inaudible 00:15:21.8]. Buyers don't want the ugly marbles; the litigation, the potential liabilities … you know that stuff, so just for your audience though typically we find that the buyer wins because they're the ones with the money. So if you want a deal done you're going to do an asset deal. So there's not a hard and fast rule, the exception to that is often times when there's customer contracts in place that you don't want to have to renegotiate, you don't want to create a new corporate entity and then often times those become start deals just for just the core purposes. That's the other part of your question, you're looking at a seven figure in EBIDTA deal. Mark: So the basic structure of it. I know we've run into some cases where we've worked with private equity firms but they wanted to have a management team in place before. Andy: Right. Mark: Or the structure of the deal you know as a cash or as a cash financing and as a- Andy: All right, again it's going to be all over the place but generally speaking if the owner is retiring … owner-founder is retiring, the seller that's one case whereas if they're wanting to stay on and run it and grow it that's another case. If they're retiring it's going to be more … mostly a cash out kind of deal. But if there's a continuity there and they're selling the vast majority of their equity to a private equity firm retaining a small minority stake on the order of 10, 20% that's a different sort of deal. And that's probably the preference for most private equity firms. Again we're talking generalities. All firms operate differently. If you have a strong management team that wants to stay on the private equity firms are going to be interested in that. If they're interested in your company because of its industry, its size, its growth trajectory, and its promise to go on forward they want that management to stay on and they want them properly incentivize and aligned. So typically what we'll see it's not unusual at all to see a certain sort of enterprise value established at the exit of the majority of your stake. And then the private equity firm infusing that company with capital and all sorts of tools to create value. And then having a subsequent accurate equity exit whereby the original owner's second exit is as much as or more the first exit. It happens quite frequently. It doesn't mean it will happen obviously but it's not so unusual. Mark: Yeah and I think that falls in this territory of thinking outside the box of some of the regular deals that most people think of. I talk to a lot of sellers who they want that 100% exit, they got in love with the market but they moved on. But sometimes a really good deal is if you do find that good firm involved just getting that partial exit or that first exit and then that second exit later on can be like you said just as lucrative or if not more lucrative as you got this thing behind you. Let's talk a little bit about 2018 and some of the trends in the- Andy: Let me add … I'm going to add on to that a little bit before we move on. Mark: Yeah, please. Andy: So one of the things that people I guess wonder is how … why is it a private equity firm can come in buy a majority position the equity and create value where I couldn't? A lot of that stems from they're just … they don't have their entire net worth tied up in that company or a huge swath of it whereas an owner and founder does. So they can come in and infuse it with capital where an owner would go I don't know if I want to throw the rest of my [inaudible 00:18:29.6] that I got in the basket. The same basket is already all in. And so a private equity firm and can take greater risks because it's a small percentage of their portfolio in total. And you know and as a bootstrapped operation there's a mathematical limit to how much you can grow your company without outside capital. It has to do with your profit margins, there's a straight mathematical relationship. Your profit margins are X your growth can be Y and no more. So your opportunity for outside capital is debt or equity and founders oftentimes don't have the appetite for debt and this is where private equity can come in and infuse the company with capital at a risk for them that's much more acceptable than it is for the owner-founder and try some things that are maybe riskier and get that company to grow through multiple expansion and taking on your projects and what not. So that's kind of why they're able to do that whereas an owner sometimes isn't going to take that leap of faith. Mark: I think there's another aspect to that as well. I think … I'm glad you stopped me with that, we talk a lot on this podcast and conferences, just people that we talk to in general; entrepreneurs. These bootstrapped entrepreneurs or even the guys that have come in and maybe bought something smaller and that growing it. I put them in that same category of this bootstrapped entrepreneur who this is their livelihood and if it's not 100% of the livelihood it makes up a good part of it. A lot of people are not operating with an aim towards an exit. Maybe it's in the back of their mind so a few things here and there and they do this but a private equity firm has this holding period. They have this goal of we're growing this, we're going to get the cash flow from this, and in most cases … in a lot of cases, they're looking for that exit with that company as well where they could profit from it. Andy: That's right and it drives a huge sense of urgency day after day after day. And once you're owned by a private equity firm, it's hit the ground running. It really is because they're driving that growth because they need to grow the company and exit it before their fund timeframe runs out and so it's a bit of a race. With that comes a lot of operational efficiencies, they'll add to your institutionalizing the company in terms of process fees and measurement and systems in short governance and it's all the stuff that you should do as a company but sometimes that stuff falls and kind of cracks. Mark: I'm going to make a plug so Walker Diebel who works with Quiet Light Brokerage and how he's the executive producer of a number of documentaries and one of them is Print the Legend on Netflix. And it's about the 3D printing industry. There's a really cool part in there where you see [inaudible 00:20:58.0] go through this transition of bootstrapped you know the classic starting in the warehouse garage everybody is really agile doing what they have to do and then they take outside money and it becomes institutionalized. And one of them … I cannot remember what her name was but she said just like I call this part trying to put the skeleton into the jellyfish, trying to get it back on in a jellyfish. Andy: That's a great analogy. Mark: It is. It's a great movie by the way. Print the Legend, you can get on Netflix and again that's my genius plug for Walker. Andy: I love it. Mark: Yeah. So let's talk about 2018, let's talk about some of the trends that you're seeing in 2018. Actually no let's back up we're going to talk about that in a minute because we've just said that they buy these companies with a goal of exit. What is a typical timeframe? What is the holding period that most companies are … most of the private equity firms are looking to hold companies before doing that exit? Andy: We do a report about every six months to update the holding period and we say well of all the companies that have exited in 2018 how long were they held and we compare it to six months ago and 2017, 2016, going back in time. And I set you a graph of this beforehand and we can post that if you want to or whatever or make it or you can visit our blog and see that study. But generally speaking, I think most people would say look the general private equity holding period is 3 to 7 years. That's the right answer. It's fairly generic and that's kind of all-encompassing but I wrote down some stats here. The medium holding period right now as of a couple months ago is 4.8 years. So of all the companies that have exited in 2018, they were held just shy of five years. By way of comparison, we saw a max holding period of 5.6 years in 2014. Well, why was it so long then? Well if you think 2014 and you subtract out 5.6 years, if you're looking at companies [inaudible 00:22:48.7] and say you're looking at companies that were bought at a peak of evaluations right before the recession. So those are companies that are portfolio companies owned by private equity firms that got bought at the beginning of 2008, unfortunate timing, and then just hit the recession and they just had to hold a lot longer to either breakeven or realize any value. So that increased the hold rate. And we saw a minimum conversely in the year 2000 when we have a .com boom out of 3.0 years. And we saw another minimum in 2008 you know at the peak of that it bubbled there at 3 ½ years. So that leads me to think that if you start getting around … I'm going to say holding periods of 4 years or less it might … maybe it's an indicator of a little bit of exuberance in the market. And so right now we're at 4.8 years and it is declining. It is consistently going down every time we track. So we're aiming to the 4, we're not there yet. Mark: That's fascinating data. We've actually had that conversation internally quite a bit as far as the trends in the market and what we're thinking. And what we're seeing right now we're seeing one of the more aggressive markets in the 11 year history of Quiet Light. Now granted Quiet Light Brokerage when I first started it was 2007 and we were really just getting our feet wet and getting go-ins. So we didn't have a lot of data … real useful data then we hit a recession. So you take the first six, seven years it's pretty bearish. They [inaudible 00:24:13.3] are working with. Andy: Right. Mark: So comparatively like this is the time that we're in right now feels really good and strong and that [inaudible 00:24:19.9]. Andy: And we can talk about statistics because one of the great things about having a database is that it learns itself to this during data studies and slicing and dicing a data. It really pops out interesting trends. Right now valuations are high. No secret I think everyone in your industry knows valuations are high and I'll actually tell of you guys a little bit here or your world of investment banking and business brokerage. If you are a company owner and you are thinking about selling in the next 3 to 4 years and it's even on your horizon there may not be another time that is this good for valuations. It is as good as it gets. I mean there are a couple of economic factors there. There is sort of meta … macro-economic factors that are happening that are making this as sort of sustained seller market but that'll change. Those factors are just real quickly … money is cheap right now. Monetary policy has made interest rates low. It's cheap to borrow money. It's fueling a lot of growth. Companies are growing but consequently, those people with money are looking for where can they get a better return on my capital instead of CD's and treasuries and stuff like that. So they're looking at the alternative asset space. They're putting money into private equity which has created more private equity firms than ever before, larger funds than ever before, looking for the same deals as everybody else. So there's a huge … from a financial buyer perspective there's a huge demand. And then the other factor that plays with that is a social factor and that is you probably thought this as the eye. When the baby boomers were going to retire and then we had 60's we thought that there would be these huge influx businesses for sale as they start to retire and that largely didn't happen. They just kept working. The baby boomers just kept working and that only eventually come out a buy plan but right now because they've held their businesses longer they've built up a pent up demand because they're limiting the supply. So, on the one hand, you have money in trying to chase deals, on the other hand, you have fewer deals. That's what's creating this sustained seller's market where valuations are high. It will change. It will go back down and we're going to remain. You cannot … this is my opinion not data, but you cannot make money on the assumption that someone else is going to over pay in the future years like you did today. Mark: Right … no I think that's absolutely right that when … last year on this time I wrote one of the last blog post that I personally wrote. We started the podcast instead. Before we started recording here I was telling you that I like doing this [inaudible 00:26:49.6] Andy: Yeah, right. Mark: But I talked about the history of what we've seen over the years and during those recessionary years boy if you've got a 2.7 or 2.8 discretionary earnings for a business it was a really solid deal. And today people are looking that and saying why would I ever sell for that. Understanding multiples, they're relative to the time, they're relative to the supply and demand within the marketplace and what money out there and what other investment vehicles are out there as well. Even when you're thinking about when to exit when you're thinking about buying and growing and turning this around in the case of a private equity firm that's crucial data to really kind of hone in on and understand. What are you seeing trending this year? I know I was contacted by Buzz Feed a while ago about private equity firms starting to get into the Amazon space and really looking more towards e-commerce specifically within the Amazon Marketplace. What are you seeing as far as different trends in the private equity space or is there any industries that seem to be popping up right now? Andy: There are you know we studied the portfolio companies and what's changing over time. I sort of have a top 10 list for 2018 that I'll run down with you. On top of the list has always been and maybe always will be manufacturing. Mark: I see that all the time. Andy: Everyone likes a solid just basic manufacturing company, no frills just consistent cash flow, consistent growth; predictable money. With that said manufacturing as a percentage of the portfolio companies is way less than it used to be. So coming hot on its heels are … number two and three and four positions which number two is software. So far this year software deals are a big deal. At number three is technology. This kind of go together and it makes sense. Anything that you can scale like you can with a software and technology private equity firms are interested in the ability to find the concept that scales with very low capex which software and technology tend to do. And also have this component of recurring revenue also a big theme for the private equity firms. The others I'll run down … number four was health care. Interestingly enough number five was data businesses, information services which I'm on. Six would be oil and gas which is interesting because there for a while that went away. When it went down so cheap and thus nobody … everybody was losing money in all the oil and gas services companies and the PE firms just weren't doing that but it's coming back. Seventh is medical. Eighth, construction which has been interesting, traditionally we would not see much construction related private equity investments mostly because it tends to be very capex heavy. Number nine was transportation and logistics. And number ten was engineering so another kind of services company. Mark: Fascinating. The software I presume SaaS businesses with kind of all that- Andy: Well that's the preferred. Yeah, that's the preferred model. Not always but that's where everybody's going. Everyone's going to SaaS and everyone's going to the club. Mark: Right. What about consumer products? I mean that's obviously not in your top ten list. Andy: You know off the top of my head I don't know where it is. There are a number of private equity firms that specifically build consumer product brands and focus on that exclusively. Some well-known firms they have done really well. I know that for a while food and sort of ingredient businesses we're pretty hot. I don't know if that trend is still as hot as it used to be but consumer brands is definitely a hot industry it's just not on our top ten. I hear it all the time. Mark: Sure. But what are some of the things that private equity firms just love to see when they're looking for an acquisition target? Andy: Some of the things we already touched on recurring revenue. I mean it's all about stability of cash flow. So I would say stability of cash flow spur the quality of earnings kind of companies. Scalable businesses that have strong cash flow and a track record of growth. And those firms that are maybe a little more venture capital minded might say you know what's the opportunity here in terms of can this just blow up as a trend or is this software tool just meeting this huge demand in the cloud space that's going to be the next revolution of software so that sort of thing. But really it's all about cash flow stability or scalability. Mark: All right then what are some of the things … I mean people will probably come up with conclusions but what are some of the things that they'd want to avoid? Andy: Yeah so in addition to just like the opposite of those private equity firms it would be difficult to find firms that will do project based financing as opposed to just an outright purchase acquisition. They don't want to finance your projects. They typically will not do projects that require a lot of capex. With that said I did say construction was in the top 10 so I am not sure about that but traditionally it's just hard to scale companies when you have to put a lot of money on upfront for property client equipment. And then lastly at least for the firms that we track, we do not track those that are not in this particular data site those that invest in real estate. In a traditional buyout M&A private equity firms, we just need a longer time horizon than seven or 10 years to make sure that real estate pays off like it should. So what we do track in another data model institutional real estate investor, that's a different animal altogether and probably outside of this group but … out of this conversation but they typically are just not going to buy real estate. Mark: I've got a question for you on general multiples and let's talk software and tech and if you don't have this data right now I know I'm kind of … I'm springing this on you, I didn't prep you on this one. Andy: That's all right. Mark: But we talk often that there's a bit of a multiple shift when you get to certain levels in EBIDTA. Andy: Yeah that's right. Mark: This is something that companies don't typically get the strongest multiples as you move up we see these multiple shifts. What are some of the demarcation lines that you see for EBIDTA as one of these multiples that you start to inch up? Or is it just kind of a gradual scale where you're seeing that happen? Andy: You know I don't know if there is definite lines and I don't know if I'm going to know the answer to that question but just let me talk kind of about a hand waving principles around. Mark: Sure. Andy: I think it just kind of scales generally with size. Companies that are bigger tend to be more stable. And when you're more stable that's perceived to be less risk for a buyer and therefore more valuable and hence a higher multiple. And so that is why one of the methodologies that private equity firms use is this buy and build platform an add-on strategy. It is you buy the platform company, you take a smaller add-on investment, you buy it for … I'm just going to make up a number, 6X EBIDTA and suddenly you put it in, you fold it into a bigger company and that same sort of producing asset is now repaid X because it's part of a bigger company. So you got a 2X sort of free value out of that built on. And I can remember meeting with … I won't name the name, but a private equity firm we're meeting with one time we we're working on a deal back when we used to do deals and he was outlining that strategy for me. He's like yes it's really not just rocket science, that's what we do. It's pretty simple and you buy it for a five and you get seven automatically; free money. Mark: Right. I have these conversations with buyers over the years that their first footsteps into the space of buying … in our case online businesses start with maybe on Flippa and buy me [inaudible 00:33:51.5] out of $20,000 $30,000 sites and that was their appetite. The next thing you know they're doing an SBA loan and they're buying something bigger. Andy: Right. Mark: In variable … invariably once they have enough success that light bulb goes off in their head where they look at that and say wait a minute I can bolt on my company over here which is more valuable, a company that is less valuable here and if I can fill them in I'm getting this multiple jump and I'm adding value immediately. And in addition especially with the sizes that we're looking at I can buy something with EBIDTAs of 500,000 but if I buy four of these, combined them, now I'm not buying at a multiple of 2.8 or three. I'm buying at a multiple … I'm now able to sell it maybe at 3.3, 3.5 or whatever the case maybe for that industry. Andy: Right. Mark: It's this double whammy of the valuations that go up. And as that light bulb with them goes off for where then the next thing I know they're building their fund around to be able to do that. Andy: Now it's easy for us to say it's much harder to implement. So you can say you are just free money. Yeah, there's a lot of hoops you got to jump there to make that happen and integrations and all that. And it's hard work and that's why not everyone is doing it. But if it is kind of conceptually not that difficult to understand. Mark: Right, okay where can people find you if they want more information and if they want to start kind of exploring this world of private equity outside of the blog that'd be a great place to start but what if they're finding for more information? Andy: So you can go to our website PrivateEquityInfo.com at the bottom there's contact us, you'll see my phone number and my email. I'm happy to take calls. I'm happy to answer your emails. If you have questions about private equity, questions about your business and [inaudible 00:35:32.0]. Just pick my brain that's fine. We're happy to do that. We love to talk to customers and potential customers and help people. Mark: Very good. Hey, thanks so much for coming on. I can see you having [inaudible 00:35:42.3] 2019 rolls around and we get in to some of the trends there. Start paying attention to these holding periods that are happening I think that's a really cool stat to be able to be tracking here. And also just kind of see where the trends are with these top industries that are kind of popping up as time goes by here. Andy: Yeah well thanks for having me. It has been fun. Let's do it again. Mark: Yeah thanks, bye. Andy: All right bye-bye.   Links and Resources: Andy's LinkedIn Andy's Company PrivateEquityInfo blog  

How to Sell Millions on Amazon Using SEO and Marketing Tools Part 1 SEO and digital marketing plays a large part in getting your Amazon product listings in front of more people. On today’s part one of a three-part series, Steve introduces us to Andy Arnott. Andy is the Founder and CEO of SellerSEO, a service that helps Amazon sellers automate and optimize their businesses. Some of the key takeaways from this episode are: How Andy made the decision to shift from having a career in aviation to being an entrepreneur. The businesses he started at a very young age. The challenges he faced while managing his businesses. So listen to today’s podcast and learn more about how you can take advantage of SEO and marketing tools to grow your Amazon business. 05:59 (Andy shares his origin story.) 08:36 (Andy talks about his parents.) 14:04 (Andy talks about his college degree.) 15:50 (Andy talks about his early businesses.) Welcome to the Awesomers.com podcast. If you love to learn and if you're motivated to expand your mind and heck if you desire to break through those traditional paradigms and find your own version of success, you are in the right place. Awesomers around the world are on a journey to improve their lives and the lives of those around them. We believe in paying it forward and we fundamentally try to live up to the great Zig Ziglar quote where he said, "You can have everything in your life you want if you help enough other people get what they want." It doesn't matter where you came from. It only matters where you're going. My name is Steve Simonson and I hope you will join me on this Awesomer journey. SPONSOR ADVERTISEMENT If you're launching a new product manufactured in China, you will need professional high-resolution Amazon ready photographs. Because Symo Global has a team of professionals in China, you will oftentimes receive your listing photographs before your product even leaves the country. This streamlined process will save you the time, money and energy needed to concentrate on marketing and other creative content strategies before your item is in stock and ready for sale. Visit SymoGlobal.com to learn more. Because a picture should be worth one thousand keywords. You're listening to the Awesomers podcast. Steve: You are listening to Episode Number 83 of the Awesomers.com podcast series and all you have to do is pop on over to Awesomers.com/83 to find any little details, show notes links and things that we talk about in today's episode. Now today is part one of a three-part episode with the entrepreneur Andy Arnott. Now, Andy started selling on Amazon back in 2013 and hit seven figures within the first eight months. Before starting his Amazon business, he worked for the U.S. government in the aerospace industry and ran a seven-figure Android app business. We're gonna talk a little bit about both those experiences. In 2015, he got his first Amazon-related SAS product, software as a service, that got Amazon sellers reviews. In 2017, he launched AMZ Blitz, an Amazon product launch and rank company and in 2018 he rolled out a new feature called SellerSEO, a service dedicated to helping sellers automate and optimize their Amazon businesses. He continues to sell millions on Amazon and through his coaching and software he's helped thousands of Amazon sellers grow their businesses. Now, Andy is a great guy to listen to and learn from and his origin story is as always inspiring and helpful to understand everybody's journey. It really is instructive and fun. Let's dive into today's episode. This is again part one of a three-part series with Andy right now. Everybody, Steve Simonson back again with another episode of the Awesomers.com podcast series and today we're joined by Andy Arnott. Did I get that spelling or the pronunciation right? Andy: You did. You nailed it and which is fine because I get the French one a lot, you know Arnott. They think the double T is silent and

Episode 4 is here. Tried a different lineup in this set. Hope you all enjoy it. Original Music from me coming soon. 1. Chew Fu - Purple Rain (Mousse T's Home a Lone Mix) 2. MK ft. Becky Hill - Piece of Me (Keep That Dub) 3. Opolop - Spare Me The Details (Rhemi Remix) 4. DJ Fudge & Hallex M - Simpatico (Ft. Omar) 5. Nteeze & Andy - You and Me A Melody (Veda Lazy Vocal Mix) 6. Tasha LaRae - Find My Way 7. Nina Simone - Black Bird (Jose Marquez Remix) 8. &ME - After Dark 9. Cupcakes - Norman Manley 10. Vanco - Midnight Passion 11. 60 Hertz Project - Capricorn (Ralf Gum) 12. Julien Jabre - War (Emoboys remix) 13. Da Capo - Sabir 14. SanXero - Lets Freak ft. Mr V (Louie Vega Remix) 15. DJ Satelite - Malembe Na Soukouss (Mbambu Remix) 16. Alex Dimou - This Time 17. Viola - Little Girl 18. Thabzen Bibo - 4000 Sec 19. XtetiQsoul - Doin Better 20. Djeff Afrozila - Alright ft Miranda Nicole 21. XtetiQsoul - Reach for the Stars 22. Andyboi - Wamuhle (Afrikan Roots Remix) 23. Lady X - Seasons