Podcast appearances and mentions of Kelly Allen

Talkline with Hoppy Kercheval

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 21, 2024 39:04

Traditional management uses "carrots," like bonuses, and "sticks", like Performance Improvement Plans, to motivate employees. But are humans really built that way? In this episode, Jacob Stoller and Andrew Stotz dive into the myth surrounding that approach and talk about what actually motivates people at work. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.7 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we dive deeper into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with Jacob Stoller, Shingo-Prize winning author of The Lean CEO and Productivity Reimagined, which explores applying Lean and Deming management principles at the enterprise level. The topic for today is myth number four, the myth of sticks and carrots. Jacob, take it away. 0:00:46.2 JS: Thank you, Andrew, and great to continue our conversation. Yeah, it is widely believed that people are motivated by threats and rewards. And to demonstrate that, all you have to do is go into an HR department and look at the job descriptions and the reward programs. And it's all assumes that people are motivated by externalities, right? And that goes back, actually, it's a very, very old way of looking at the world, that there's a term, it's a bit of Latin here, homo economicus. And it's the idea that humans are sort of goal seeking creatures. They seek what's better for them, and it's all material. They'll seek their material gain, and they will behave in very predictable ways, according to that. So you can set up external motivators, mainly money, and you can regulate the way people will behave. 0:01:38.2 JS: So that's the assumption that many businesses are built on. But science has proven that that's not the way human humans work. There've been a number... And starting really in the 1950s, a number of scientists have sort of poked serious holes in that thinking. One of them is Edward Deci, who talked about motivation and did a number of experiments to see that, to find out that people, you know, their motive for doing tasks really kind of transcends rewards. Often they'll do something, for the satisfaction of doing it, in spite of the rewards being greater. We have Frederick Herzberg who developed something called Hygiene Theory. And that's really that... He determined in an organization that money can't actually be a positive motivator. It can't motivate positive behavior, but lack of money can motivate negative behavior. 0:02:49.6 JS: So, you know, and a number of experiments to support that. And then we have, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, hard to pronounce, who talks about joy at work and really did experiments and kind of proved that joy at work isn't just some kind of fancy idea that somebody had. But it's actually a scientifically proven principle. Whereas when people have joy at work and they're fully engaged in their work, they do much higher quality work. So that's kind of the background really here. So what we want, when we manage, is we want people to be intrinsically motivated so that they do their best work. And Deming principles are very, very, I think representative of that. I think Dr. Deming understood that people are motivated when they feel a part of something, when they contribute, when they feel that their team members around them are supporting them. And so that's what we try to do. And Lean eorld tries to do that, and we try to do that with Deming principles. 0:04:06.8 AS: You know, when I start off my discussion on this with students and people that I teach in seminars and the like, I always ask them, you know, which, do you believe in, a carrot or a stick? Do you think more people are motivated by rewards or punishments? And it's a great... 0:04:18.1 Jacob Stoller: Oh, okay. 0:04:24.1 AS: Way to kick off a conversation. But, you know, obviously we're gonna get some people that say, I want people to be feeling, you know, positive rewards and feel positive. And then you have the other people that... What I invariably find is that people who are running large companies with lots of employees, it's sticks. Yes, because... 0:04:40.4 JS: Interesting. 0:04:41.8 AS: It's overwhelming. And then when I think about where it's easiest to do joy in work, and where it's easiest to get the intrinsic motivation is, you know, smaller companies where everybody's close and they're really working together. And that's a dilemma that I never really have had a great reconciling of, but I'm interested to learn more about it from the direction that you're coming. So continue on. But that's just something I have in my mind when heard you talk about it. 0:05:13.1 JS: It's tough to do with a big company, but I wanna tell you a big company story. And actually I'm gonna read, a page or two of the book just because it's, I don't want to, it's a complicated story and I wanna make sure you get all the... 0:05:32.5 AS: Well, you've it written so well. So might as well do that. 0:05:36.1 JS: Well, like, gosh, let's hope so. Let's hope so. But, anyway, this is actually by coincidence. I just, what appeared, this morning on their podcast, so, of this company called Barry-Wehmiller. So, but the CEO of Barry-Wehmiller is a gentleman named Bob Chapman. And he's become quite well known in the Lean world and outside of the Lean world because as a pioneer of what we could call human-centric leadership. So he believes in treating people in the company like family members. But he didn't start out that way. He started with a very traditional background. He took over his father's business and he had a typical MBA background with accounting. And so he grew that company in a traditional way. You know, it started, as one company, and it started really by acquisition. 0:06:25.5 JS: He got very, very good at finding undervalued companies and developing them. So the company grew and it became a sort of a multinational, diversified manufacturer of various kinds of machinery. And so he was a huge success. I mean, he was written up in Harvard Business Review, all this kind of stuff, but he had a feeling, he was very much a family man too, and he had a feeling that something wasn't quite right in the companies that he was running. And he's a... Bob is a very... He watches people, he's very sensitive about body language. And he told me of a time he was in the cafeteria of a company, and it was sort of basketball season, you know, March Madness. That's when the university teams, you know, have their finals and all that, and everybody's betting on them, you know, it's a big deal. 0:07:21.9 JS: So he remembers being in there, and the people in the cafeteria all just having a great time and watching them chatter. And then, he watched the... When the clock sort of moved, so it's a few minutes to having to go back to work, he said the body language changed, all of a sudden they just weren't that happy. You know, it just, all the joy kind of drained out of them. And then they went off to their jobs. And Bob said, you know, this is wrong. You know, that it shouldn't be this way. And he was a family man. He said, I wouldn't want my children who I care about to be working in this kind of environment. So how can we care for the people and how can we actually make that work? So here's what I'm gonna start to read, because here's where it gets complicated. 0:08:08.6 JS: "Chapman vowed to change how people were led at Barry-Wehmiller. His business background, however, didn't provide any help for this. 'When I was in business school, I was never taught to care,' he said. 'It was about creating economic value. It was all business models, market cap, market share. I don't remember in my undergraduate in accounting or my graduate school ever learning to care or inspire the people I had the privilege to lead. And I never read, never was told, never heard that the way I would run Barry-Wehmiller would impact the way people go home and treat their families and their health. But the biggest thing we've learned is that the way we learn impacts the way people live.' Working with a group of team members from across the organization, he developed a set of principles called the Guiding Principles of Leadership, or GPL, which put caring for people as front and center to the job for all leaders in the company. 0:09:05.2 JS: "But the question remained, how do we organize the work in a way that gives workers the experience of working in a caring environment? It happened that Barry-Wehmiller had recently acquired a Baltimore based manufacturer of corrugated paper machines called MarquipWardUnited the company had implemented a number of Lean tools and practices under the leadership of Jerry Solomon, who was also the author of several books on Lean accounting. In Chapman's first meeting with Solomon, he introduced him to the Guiding Principles of Leadership and Solomon immediately saw a connection with the challenges companies face when trying to create a Lean culture. Most companies practicing Lean, he noted, never get to the culture piece. The same concern that caused the Shingo Institute to revise its model in 2008." And by the way, I have to interject here. That was covered in a previous chapter, how Shingo Institute found that they had left out the people and the caring part. 0:10:14.4 JS: And that had caused a lot of companies that had adopted Shingo principles to actually, and had won Shingo prizes to actually fall off the ladder, so to speak. But that's another story. Anyway, "Solomon," Jerry Solomon, this is the, from MarquipWardUnited "felt that what the company needed was what he called a delivery mechanism to integrate the Guiding Principles of Leadership with the company's day-to-Day operations. How, for example, does a supervisor in the shop floor interact with the people doing the work? Solomon felt that Lean and GPL were an ideal fit. Chapman was skeptical, though, 'cause he'd heard that Lean is purely about reducing waste and increasing profits, but not about leading people ... passed. 0:11:06.2 JS: And the group that was working on it, this company in Green Bay, actually was ready to report on some of their results. So they invited Bob Chapman and Jerry to come, to fly in to see the report. So what they got was a sort of a typical consultant's report. They said, well, we've implemented this thing and we've got, we've shortened the lead time, we've reduced the defects, whatever. And Chapman's reaction was actually different than what you would expect. He was very, very upset. 'Cause he said, this is supposed to be about people and Guiding Principles of Leadership. That's what you told me Lean was about. But here all I hear is a bunch of numbers. So he was quite upset. He left the room, actually. And they sort of calmed him down, and they said, Bob, please give us another chance. 0:12:03.6 JS: And it so happened that, the next morning there was going to be a report out from people that were actually on the team that had made the improvements. So Bob says, okay, I'll give you another chance, but I want the people that were actually working on that project to come and report to the presidents. So, an incredible setup. You know, you can imagine, you have these people 7 o'clock in the morning. Well, that's not hard for you to imagine, with the hours you keep. But anyway, 7 in the morning, you have all the principals, presidents of these companies, and you have, a couple of, people in the team and a guy who's never presented to a group like that, getting up in front of a whole group of CEOs. So he had some notes, and he went through his presentation, which was very sort of, you know, what you would expect. 0:12:54.2 JS: It was, yeah, we've got the, pretty much what the consultants had said the day before, right? Yeah. We cut the lead time. We did this. And, Bob listened patiently. He said he listened for about 10 minutes, and then he says, and he says, I don't know where this came from. He stood up and said, Steve, that's the name of the guy presenting. How did this change your life? And there was a silence. And you imagine, right? All the CEOs and or the presidents. And then, and this guy who has never presented to a group like that. And Steve just sort of blurted out, my wife is talking to me more. And Bob said, help me, Steve. I don't understand. Please, please explain this. And Steve then went ahead and told, what Bob said was one of the most moving stories he'd ever heard, you know, and what Steve said is, well, Bob, you know how it is. 0:13:53.9 JS: You go to work and, you know, you punch in your clock. And then they give you some things to do. They give you a list of things to do, but they don't give you any support or anything, or they don't give you the tools you need, but you sort of figure it out. You know, you get through the day and you get nine out of 10 things, right? But then maybe that 10th thing you'll run into some problem. He said, and immediately what they do, they never thank you for the things you did right. They jump on you for the problem you have, that you confronted. They tell you, you didn't do things right. And then they complain about your salary and how they have to pay overtime and all these kinds of things. 0:14:41.6 JS: And he said, you know, at the end of the day, I wasn't feeling too good about myself. And I'd go home and I think it was rubbing off on me. I wasn't being very nice to my wife and she wasn't talking to me. But he said, now with this program we have, the Guiding Principles of Leadership with Lean, people, I'm part of something. I'm part of a team. We've worked on some things and I can see the results. And when I ask questions, these engineers are answering my questions. And when I say things, they listen to me. And, you know, we've got the satisfaction of this project where we see the flow now really working out in this area. So I go home and I'm feeling better about myself. And I think I'm nicer to my wife and she's talking to me. And at that point, Bob Chapman turned to Jerry Solomon and he said, we have a new metric for Lean's success. It's going to be the reduction of the divorce rate in America. 0:15:41.7 JS: So that's, I think, very, very central. That story to everything we're talking about here with intrinsic motivation. Because it's not about money. It's, you know, you've gotta pay people decently and then they have to be able to support their families. But it's about respect. It's about seeing yourself accomplish things. And this isn't just a frill, this is a basic human need. I think Dr. Deming recognized that. And he has a wonderful diagram in The New Economics where he talks about, he calls it Forces of Destruction. You know that diagram? 0:16:23.1 AS: Yeah. 0:16:27.5 JS: Yeah. It's the... How the school system and then the job environments just basically wear a person down, wear down their will and their enthusiasm. And, you know what, another CEO pointed out to me that, very interestingly, he said, we have a crisis in this country because people don't have purpose in their work. So they go from job to job when they don't like their job. It's, he said, it's like changing an app. Something goes wrong, they change it, but they got no purpose in their work. 0:17:03.3 JS: And this company, I should I call them out, 'cause he, mention his name is Mark Borsari. And it's a company that makes wire brushes in Massachusetts. But they do, you know... He said, you really have to find the purpose in the interactions of people. It's in the people and it's in the processes. You don't get people excited about wire brushes. You get people excited about being part of a work environment where your opinion is respected and where you can make improvements. So, he said, that's what people need in the workplace right now. And he said, the result is that people, you know, we have people just depressed and upset and, you know, it's a crisis that's perhaps underestimated, but really needs to be addressed. So that's why I feel maybe so passionate about this sticks and carrots myth, because I see how destructive it is to human beings. And I've experienced some of that myself in, you know, my early days in corporate life where you're kind of blamed and evaluated for things that often you have no control over. And it's, you know, you look at something like the Red Bead Game. There are people that actually live that. 0:18:31.0 AS: Just to highlight for the listeners and the viewers, the book that Bob Chapman wrote is called Everybody Matters: The Extraordinary Power of Caring for Your People Like Family, very highly rated on Amazon. And it looks like it's also in audible form, which would be a fun one. And you also mentioned about Jerry Solomon, his book, Who's Counting is another one on the topic. 0:18:32.5 AS: But you know, I was thinking about this for a moment. And I was thinking, you know, I was kind of inoculated to this, I was vaccinated against negative thinking by two things that happened to me when I was young. The first one is, you know, I went into rehab as as a young guy with drug addiction. And I came out of that when I was almost 18. And from that point till today, I've been drug free, alcohol free. And so I had to kind of face all the demons that I had, you know, accumulated at that time, but I left it with a really positive outlook on life. 0:19:29.7 AS: Like I wanted happiness. 0:19:29.8 JS: Interesting. 0:19:29.9 AS: I wanted serenity. And then and then I went to work... I went studied, enjoyed that, I went to work for Pepsi, I really enjoyed it. And then I met Dr. Deming when I was, you know, 24. And and he told me, you know, we should have joy in work. And from that moment on, it's like, that's what I wanted in life. And so I never, I never got caught up in this idea when I worked at Big Bank, you know, Citibank and other places, I just never, nobody could ever convince me that, you know, I should be unhappy with what I'm doing. 0:20:05.5 AS: Like, I really, really enjoyed it. And then I was just thinking about how painful it is, if you haven't been inoculated from the beginning, to have to go through this, and then you end up with, you know, it's it's 9 to 5, it's painful work, it's called work for a reason, it's hard, you know. And I think that before I come to the next questions, you know, about the question we always get on the topic of carrots and sticks, what do we do instead? 0:20:30.6 AS: Before I talk about that, I think I really wanna highlight that what's important is getting your thinking right about this. Whether it's the thinking about I wanna treat people like a family, I want people to enjoy work, I want work to be a source of pride, I want people to wanna work here. You know, if you can get those thoughts right, the solutions to the carrots and sticks, and how do we evaluate and all of those questions, you know, can kind of, they wither away to some extent. What are your thoughts on that? 0:21:02.4 JS: Well, I think Jerry Solomon said it very well, actually. He said, you need a delivery mechanism. And Lean provided that, you know, it has a bunch of tools and organizing principles. So does the Deming's System of Profound Knowledge, right, and the various frameworks that Dr. Deming put together. So that provides that kind of framework. It's not easy to do. I think one of the big hurdles, and this is kind of central to my book is that you're dealing with a lot of unlearning. And they say that it's harder to unlearn something than it is to learn new skills. So we really can't afford to underestimate that. 0:21:51.1 JS: And I think when we have managers and leaders facing massive unlearning challenges, I think what's needed is compassion, you know, we shouldn't be putting them down for applying what they learned, we should be understanding about the changes. And I think Dr. Deming, you know, from the stories I've heard was very good about that. 0:22:00.0 AS: Well, he had something he would say, which was kind of one of his methods of compassions, but I remember him saying, how could they know? How could they know, you know, like, they were brought up in this system, as you've just said, and so, but it's based upon the carrot and sticks and all of these different things. But I'm curious, you know, which I think we at some point we'll get to in our discussion is the, there's listeners and viewers out there. It's like, okay, Jacob, totally agree with you. Andrew, totally agree with you. I want people to have joy in work. But you know, I'm constrained by, you know, the performance appraisals that I got to do. 0:23:07.3 AS: I'm constrained by the punishments and rewards that my company does. And or a leader of a company says, if I let these things go, we're gonna fall apart. How do you respond to that? 0:23:11.6 JS: Well, gosh, I mean, I think you have to just look at the case studies of people that have let that go. And that's why I emphasize I one of the points I emphasize in the book with advice for companies moving forward is a very first step before you do anything is go visit companies that have been successful. You know, go visit Bama Foods, where they have a great culture. Go watch how people interact with people. Go to some of the great Lean companies. All these companies understand that the best gift they can give their employees is to allow them to share what they've learned with other people. It's a great motivator for people. So it's a real win win. So I think it begins with that you've got to see it first. And then you can start to assess where you stand. 0:24:13.6 JS: But we're talking about a transformation here, as Dr. Deming said. We're not talking about implementing a few tricks that we can superimpose on our management system. You've got to manage it completely differently to actually get this kind of intrinsic motivation to be a driving force in your workplace. 0:24:19.2 AS: It just made me think that I wanna come up with the five happiest companies in Bangkok and do a tour and take my students out and my teams out and my company managers out and let's go, you know, see how they're turning on intrinsic motivation, you know. And one thing about Thailand that's interesting is that what people want from work is very different than in the West. 0:24:50.1 JS: Right. 0:24:51.2 AS: And what people want from work is good relationships, harmony. 0:24:57.6 JS: Really. 0:24:57.8 AS: They want connection. They want meaning, more meaning from their work than the typical Western. 0:25:05.8 JS: Isn't that interesting? Interesting. 0:25:05.9 AS: And so when I see and I rail sometimes on to my students about, you know, be very careful about bringing this KPI disease into Thailand, where all of a sudden, you're setting up the Thai people to go against each other, which takes away from what is a core strength is their desire and ability to get along. 0:25:33.3 JS: Isn't that interesting? Wow, so they got a head start. 0:25:42.5 AS: Yeah. My first move to Thailand in 1992, I taught an MBA class. And the first thing I did is what was done with me in my MBA class is say, all right, here's a case study, break into groups, and then, you know, and then they came back and, and then after getting to know them in my first semester that I taught, now I've been teaching for 32 years in Thailand. The first lesson I learned is Thais do not need group work. They need individual work. And because they need to kind of flex that muscle. 0:26:08.8 AS: And then I thought, well, why are we do so much group work in America? Well, because it's Americans are trained and taught from the beginning to think independently, have their own idea, watch out for themselves. And they need help in, let's say, MBA classes to work together. 0:26:26.8 JS: Isn't that interesting? 0:26:26.9 AS: And so what I just saw was a very different dynamic. 0:26:30.3 JS: Wow. 0:26:30.9 AS: And it helped me also to understand that we... The good side of the American, let's say, I know, American worker, I know Americans, just 'cause that's where I grew up. But the good side of that is that there is a lot of independent thinking, they can come up with the good systems and all of that. 0:26:47.3 JS: Sure. 0:26:48.9 AS: But the bad side is that they're oftentimes fired up to be in competition with each other. And KPIs just ignite that fire that just... 0:26:58.2 JS: They do. 0:26:58.3 AS: Really causes, you know, a lot of damage. 0:27:00.5 JS: Well, I got to ask you something, then, do you think that that East versus West kind of mindset is why Dr. Deming's ideas were taken up in Japan when they had been kind of ignored in the US? 0:27:16.9 AS: Yeah, I mean, I definitely I mean, Japan is like an extreme example of Asia and trying to have harmony and everybody, the bigger mission is the company, the bigger mission is the community, the bigger mission is the country. I would say that Japan is like the ultimate in that. Thailand is less so there's more independence and people don't have to be completely allegiant to those things. But still, that desire to be happy at work is there, you know, I think it's there more, it's more innate, for some reason in Thailand, than I saw it in America. 0:27:55.8 AS: And I always explain that, when I worked in America, I think I never went out on a weekend with my colleagues. 0:28:04.5 JS: Really. Interesting. 0:28:05.3 AS: And in Thailand is a very common thing to arrange activities together with your workmates, and go bowling and do this and do that. And I thought, I saw that everywhere. And I was pretty, you know, that just was fascinating to me. So I really, you know, this discussion is all about opening up people's minds, that carrots and sticks are not the only way. And as you said, it's a transformation, it takes time, you got to think about it, you got to reconcile it. 0:28:37.8 JS: Well, and that brings up another really important point, Andrew. And that is that teamwork, team productivity really makes the difference in a company. And when you think about it, you've got a whole bunch of individuals that productivity is very often not gonna add up for reasons, you know, that we've already talked about, you know, it's not part of the system. So team productivity becomes really, really essential. But team productivity, and Kelly Allen actually pointed this out really well to me. And I mean, I'm gonna just look in my notes here to get his words exactly, 'cause he said it so well. 0:29:21.0 JS: Let's see here. And here's Kelly, "a useful operational definition of a team is the collaborative and coordinated efforts of people working together in an atmosphere of voluntary trust." So you got to build that. And, you know, that's kind of tough to do in a lot of North American companies. 0:29:48.5 AS: Yeah. It's such a great point. And I think I've recently been teaching a corporate strategy. And I talk about Michael Porter and all the he's taught about strategy. But one of the things that he mentions towards the end of his books is the idea of fit. And he's talking about how do the pieces fit together in the company. And everybody knows that feeling when the when the process before you or the process after you in your company is being run by somebody that you have a good fit with. It's like everything comes together. And so I think what I realize now is that the power of that coordination that Kelly Allen's talking about is all about how do we get these pieces fit together, working together, coordinating together. That's the magic. 0:30:37.3 AS: Interesting. But Porter, I mean, he talked about a lot of I think, you know, it's been a long time since I've looked at his books, but a lot of his stuff was either or, right? I mean, you know, you decide, am I gonna be a price leader or am I gonna be a quality leader? And I think a lot of what he did disregarded, you know, Deming's Chain Reaction, you know, where he where you actually invest in both. So I mean, that's got a problem and with strategy people in general. Now, I know you've taught strategy. So maybe you're gonna take me apart on this one. But it seems to me that the strategy folks are really missing something. 0:31:29.1 AS: Well, I think most people are missing the type of stuff that Dr. Deming's talking about, but I use an example of McDonald's and Starbucks. 0:31:35.5 JS: Okay. 0:31:37.3 AS: You know, one is a low cost leader. And one is a premium, you know, differentiated, you know, product and service. And we all know which one's which. So which one leads to a sustainable competitive advantage? Which one is better? I always talk to my students. And I say, the fact is, is that both of them have led to a competitive advantage. So part of what, you know, I would say, when I think about corporate strategy, from my perspective, is figure out the direction that fits your DNA, and then pursue that, whether that's about making, you know, I like to tell my students that think of a company run by an engineer, who may be focused on the processes and all that, who may create a very efficient operation, versus a business, let's say run by a marketing or sales person who has a much better contacting and messaging to the customer. Those two business owners should be developing their corporate strategy around their DNA, you know, and if they do that right, that, in theory, should lead to some competitive advantage. 0:31:58.9 AS: And to me, competitive advantage is how do we make sure that our company creates a level of profitability that is higher than the industry average over a sustained period of time. If we think we're doing a corporate strategy that works, and we're making a very low amount of profitability, I think that there's enough reason to argue that that's probably not achieving a competitive advantage. 0:32:37.1 JS: Yeah. And I think we have to put the word sustainable competitive advantage. But along the McDonald's, Starbucks, though, I have a very interesting twist. And I think this was done locally in Canada. But somebody did a blind test of coffees from various outlets to see what rated the highest. And I have to tell you that McDonald's coffee rated very high, higher than Starbucks. So... 0:33:47.1 AS: But it's definitely the case in Bangkok that McDonald's coffee is fantastic. 0:33:50.8 JS: Really. 0:33:51.8 AS: I happen to know very much about that. But I highly recommend that. 0:33:55.7 JS: Yeah. Well, I think we're, you know, we are focusing in this book, essentially on, you know, productivity. Now, marketing, marketing strategy and stuff like that is yeah, I'll acknowledge that. Sure. And that's maybe, you know, I think what Michael Porter was talking about it's very true in terms of marketing. But in terms of quality, output of quality, I think that's where the Deming magic and the Lean magic all come into play. 0:34:12.2 AS: Yeah, I mean, it took me a long time to figure out that what Dr. Deming saying is, if we are continually improving our products and service and our quality, we're driving down costs, and we're making people happier, and we're bringing more value to the market. How... Shall we wrap this up? And how would you summarize what you want people to take away from this? 0:34:26.1 JS: I would say that intrinsic motivation is underestimated in workplaces, it's misunderstood. It's not reflected in the way most companies are organized or their strategies. So it's a big learning curve for companies to create the kind of environment where intrinsic motivation is connected with the workplace. But I think it's worthwhile, it's a very, very important thing. And we have a lot of unhappiness in society. And a lot of it can be traced to a lack of that. So, you know, I hope that more companies will see the importance of this. 0:35:16.6 AS: You know, it's my, my friend who never... He was helping me when I was writing my book, Transform your Business with Dr. Deming's 14 points. 0:36:02.2 JS: That's a great book. 0:36:02.7 AS: And he was editing a book. 0:36:02.8 JS: I love that book, by the way. 0:36:04.3 AS: Thank you. I was trying to make it as simple as possible for the 14 points. But my friend, as he was helping me edit it, he turned to me after many hours of working together over many weeks, he said to me, I figured it out. Dr. Deming is a humanist, he cares about people. And that was just so funny, because he thought going into it, it's all gonna be about, you know, charts and graphs and statistics. And I think that's, you know, that's the key, it's the mindset. I wanna wrap up by by just going through some of Dr. Deming's 14 points that apply to what we're talking about. And, you know... 0:36:39.2 JS: Great. 0:36:39.6 AS: The question really is, you know, when my friend said that Dr. Deming was a humanist, it's 'cause as he started working on the 14 points with me, he started to realize, just listen to these points. Here's point number eight, drive out fear. Yeah, that's critical to having a joyful workplace. Number nine, break down barriers between department. That's the source of so much trouble for people at work is that they're working in silos. Number 10, eliminate slogans and targets and exhortations. Stop focusing on pushing the workers constantly. Figure out how to improve the system. 0:37:10.2 AS: Number 11, eliminate work standards or quotas, eliminate management by objective, management by numbers, substitute leadership. And number 12, remove barriers that rob the hourly worker of the right to pride of workmanship. Remove barriers that rob people in management and engineering of their right of pride of workmanship. My goodness, from eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, all focused on this concept of intrinsic motivation. And to me, that thinking, changing that thinking is what's so critical. Anything you would add as we wrap up? 0:37:25.0 JS: Yeah, I will add one thing to that. And this is very strongly in the book. That is why the first step if you're gonna transform your company is making everybody feel safe. That's got to be the first step, even before you start training them with methods and things like that. You have to build safety, then you can build trust. 0:37:47.2 AS: Fantastic. Well, Jacob, on behalf of everyone at the Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for this discussion. And for listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. So much happening there. You can find Jacob's book, Productivity Reimagined at jacobstoller.com. And this is your host, Andrew Stotz. And I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming that I just never stop talking about. And today we talked about it a lot. And that is, "People are entitled to joy in work."

Talkline for Tuesday, October 8, 2024

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 8, 2024 107:31

Today Hoppy is joined by Roger Hanshaw, Eben Brown, Craig Blair, Brad McElhinny, Ryan Schmelz, Kelly Allen, and Michael Folio.

eben brown kelly allen talkline ryan schmelz brad mcelhinny

Category and Continuum Thinking: Misunderstanding Quality (Part 6)

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 3, 2024 34:35

Is quality simply a matter of two categories: good and bad? But then how do you get to "better"? In this episode, Bill Bellows and Andrew Stotz discuss categories and continuum thinking. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.4 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz and I'll be your host as we dive deeper into the teachings of Dr. W Edwards Deming. Today I'm continuing my discussion with Bill Bellows who has spent 31 years helping people apply Dr. Deming's ideas to become aware of how their thinking is holding them back from their biggest opportunities. And today is episode six, Category Thinking and Continuum Thinking. Bill, take it away. 0:00:27.9 Bill Bellows: Welcome Andrew great to see you again. All right, so in podcast five, I went back and it was just posted by The Deming Institute. And I just wanna clarify again on the topic of acceptability and desirability. Where we're going tonight is looking at acceptability and desirability in a little bit more detail, a little bit differently, but those are still the prevailing themes. And again, I just wanna reinforce that none of this is to imply that desirability is better than acceptability. What's important is to be aware of when I'm using acceptability thinking. And when I'm using desirability thinking and use the one that makes the most sense in that situation. We were talking earlier about companies whose products we enjoy using and we're loyal to them. And I mentioned that my wife and I have developed a loyalty to Toyota products. 0:01:40.4 BB: Going back to 1989 was our first Toyota product. And I knew I wanted a pickup truck. 'Cause I was borrowing a pickup truck from a number of friends and I thought, I really like a pickup truck. There's a lot you can do with a pickup truck. So, I knew I wanted a pickup truck. And I knew from having worked in my father's gas station, I had reason to believe I wanted a Japanese pickup truck and not an American pickup truck. So, I then it was a question of is it a Mazda, Toyota. 0:02:11.1 AS: Nissan. 0:02:13.2 BB: Sorry Nissan. And I looked at all of them and yeah I just all I knew is I was gonna be one of those. And I think the major reason I went with... My wife and I went with a Toyota... I don't think the prices were that different. But it just had a, it was the styling was a little bit better. But I did not... That's why I bought it. 0:02:46.5 AS: The loyalty wasn't built yet. 0:02:49.0 BB: No I knew to stay away... I knew I had seen plenty of examples of... Well, I had traded in my first car that my father, my parents got me when I was in college was a 1975 Chevy Nova. Four door Chevy Nova. And the reason four doors is important is a... If it was a two door, the door would be longer. But it was a four door. By the time I gave that car to a friend, the engine was running beautifully but the body was falling apart. And, so, by the time I sold it to get the pickup truck, in order to get out of it, I'd have to throw my shoulder into the driver's door. Why? Because the door droop was so great that when you close the door, I mean the door drooped and this is not a four door, this is a two door. So, imagine if it was a two door the door would be even heavier. So, on a four door, the door drooped. And, so, when you closed it, you'd had to lift it and then close it in order to get out you had to... Oh, it's just my wife couldn't drive. It was just a nuisance. 0:04:17.6 AS: And, that in '75 was just about when the Japanese were really starting to go after the US car makers. And but I want to tell you just a quick one. I can't remember if I've told you, but I used to have a 1963 Lincoln Continental here in beautiful Bangkok. And I owned it for 10 years. And then eventually I sold it. But what a beautiful car. And people always ask me the same thing and they said, isn't it hard to take care of? And I said, you gotta remember back in those days, cars were simple. 0:04:49.1 BB: Yeah, yeah. So, the... So, with... So, the experience of 14 years or so, with the '75 Chevy Nova. And the door was like the straw that broke the camel's back. It just done with this, all right. So, we're gonna buy Japanese, bought a Toyota. That was the first one. And I think I've mentioned in the first podcast I mentioned that we had a 1998 Toyota Sienna, which is their first, it was their Toyota third attempt at a minivan. The first one I think was underpowered, the second one... And we knew we wanted a minivan. It was time, the kids were getting a little bit bigger. It was time for minivan. And just as we were ready to go buy it, they had a... I think a competitor came out with dual sliding doors. Dual sliding doors. And, so, instead of Toyota coming out with a one sliding door, they stepped back. I think Chrysler came out with two sliding doors. And they figured we can't come to market with one sliding door. They've got two sliding doors. So, then we waited another year and they finally came out and given all of our delight with the Toyota pickup truck, boom, that's what we wanted. And then the transmission failed, six months later with 10,000 miles in the car. 0:06:18.5 BB: And I have a photo of that. Not only did the transmission fail at 10,000 miles, but it failed on Christmas morning on our way to see friends about an hour away. And this guy, people were going to see, he knew I loved Toyota. And when he drove to pick us up, we transferred everything from that to his Ford F-150. He says to me... So, then we had to have the car towed on a flatbed to his house and the next day to the dealership, what a nuisance headache. But when he showed up, he looks at me knowing that I like Toyota. And he says, how's this data point change your theory about Toyota? 0:07:06.5 AS: I thought he was gonna say, if it was me, I would've said pop in the back. 0:07:12.6 BB: And I was like, yeah, that really hurts. Well when I shared that story with students at Northwestern's Business School, the Kellogg Business School, their advice and these are students that had worked in all different industries from Coke to banking, and a number of 'em have worked in the auto industry. And their advice was, I said, Professor Bellows never buy anyone's first model year, even Toyota. Now I have a friend who he and his wife bought the same model year Toyota Sienna. They did not have a problem. Oe did. When I met at a Deming conference, a guy who worked in Georgetown, Kentucky which is where the Sienna was made. And, so, I met him at a conference and when he said he worked for Toyota, I said, oh, my wife and I buy nothing but Toyotas. He says, oh. And I said, we have a first model... 0:08:08.6 BB: Year Sienna. And everything was good. And then I'm thinking, I'm gonna ask the guy a question. And I looked straight in his eyes. We were pretty close together. And I'm about to ask him a question. I'm looking straight in his eyes and I said, we got a Toyota Sienna. He says, how do you like it? And I looked right at him and I said, the transmission failed at 10,000 miles. And he rolled his eyes. And I said, so, you know about this. It wasn't a look of shock. It was, yeah, all right. So, I said, all right, all right. Your expression just told me that you know something about this. I said, what's up? He says, we tried. This is so cool. He says, we tried to save a few pennies on a bearing. 0:09:00.8 BB: I said, you did but what you did cost me more than you saved. So, yeah you guys saved a few pennies on a bearing and cost my wife weeks of aggravation to have it towed from where it happened to the place we were going because it Christmas Day, it broke. Everything's shut down on Christmas days. You can't have it right? And, so, we had it towed, had to get a rental car. Then they're complaining about, we had... Who authorized this rental car? We only pay... It was just headache after headache. But we still buy Toyota Andrew. We still buy Toyota. Why? Because I'm afraid to buy from anybody else. Well, part of the reason I wanted to share that with our audience is I buy Toyota products based on value. And I believe that the best value we get in transportation, personal transportation is the money we spend buying a Toyota most often brand new. We've also bought some used, got great use out of them, never had a problem, anything like what I just shared with you. And that's having owned five or six different Toyotas. I mean, right now in our family we have three of them. 0:10:16.7 AS: I think I need to correct you. 0:10:19.1 BB: Go ahead. 0:10:19.9 AS: You buy Toyotas on value and values. 0:10:25.7 BB: Yes! 0:10:28.2 AS: You're aligned with their values and therefore you're willing to look beyond the mistakes and problems that it comes with every product, every service, every company, because you're aligned with their values. 0:10:42.2 BB: Well, what's funny is when we bought the Sienna and we're talking with 'em, doing the driving and signed agree to buy it, that's the color we want. We want these seats, blah, blah, blah. And then you go talk to the closer and the closer's a guy, the gal at the dealership that wants to add on the undercoating and the this and the this and the this and the this. And he wanted to sell us at a premium price, this extended warranty and I dunno what it costs, but I said, I've done a whole lot of research. And he says to me it's so funny. He says, when these things break down, a circuit board breaks and that'll cost you this and this and this, and, so, I'm gonna sign you up for the insurance policy, the extra coverage. And I said, no, and he is going on and on. And I said, look it, I've done a lot of research into how they're made and I said, and the values of that organization. So, I said, the reason we buy Toyota is that I have an understanding, a pretty damn good understanding of how they manage the product, the pieces and how it all comes together. And he's pushing back at me. Finally, I said, I teach university courses on how Toyota operates and their quality system. 0:12:14.8 BB: So, we didn't get the extra coverage. Now it was still covered under warranty, so, it was kind of laughable that. But anyways, the reason I bring that up is that... 0:12:27.3 AS: Before you do that, I want to just say for the listeners and viewers out there, what is the messaging from a corporate strategy perspective? And that is have values that you stand for. Communicate those to the market, stay loyal to them and the customers who align with those values will stick with you through the hard times that you're gonna definitely have. There's a quote by Alexander Hamilton says, "those who stand for nothing, fall for everything." If you do not stand for a clear set of values that the market can perceive, then people are gonna fall away from you as soon as times get tough. 0:13:07.2 BB: Oh yeah. And I...I, I. It's about that and that's why I've read lots about Toyota. How they operate written by people outside of Toyota trying to explain it, people inside of Toyota and their explanations. But part of the reason I bring this up is my fascination, my interest in Dr. Deming's philosophy, is a great deal to do with his system is based on an incredible appreciation of the difference between acceptability and desirability. All other quality management systems, whether it's the quality management within Lean is acceptability based, good parts and bad parts, Operational Excellence, Six Sigma Quality. In fact, there's a quote at the end of chapter 10 in "The New Economics". And chapter 10 was the original last chapter until the third edition came out. In which case there's chapter 11 written in large part by Kelly Allen, a good friend. 0:14:15.1 BB: And when chapter 10 was the end I thought it was pretty cool that at the very end of chapter 10. The last few pages of chapter 10 of “The New Economics” are about Dr. Taguchi's loss function. And this is what turned me on to Dr. Taguchi, was finding “The New Economics" in a brick and mortar bookstore. I knew from ASQ Quality Progress that this was coming out. So, I remember when it came out, this was before Amazon, going to the bookstore. Going through it and saying what does this guy think about Taguchi? Because Taguchi was my, the one I really idolized. And I opened it up and I turned to chapter 10 and it's all about the loss function, the problem and I thought this is way cool. So, the closing quote... The closing... The last sentence in chapter 10 which again was the original last chapter until third edition came out, is the following "Conformance to specifications," that's acceptability, "zero defects," that's acceptability. "Six Sigma quality," which is acceptability "and all other specification-based nostrums all miss the point, ,stated by Donald J. Wheeler." 0:15:42.6 BB: So, then I looked up, but what is a nostrum? And Dr. Deming not Dr. Deming a nostrum is defined as “quack medicine.” So, "Conformance to specifications, zero defect, Six Sigma quality, and all other specification-based nostrums all miss the point." And, so, I wrote an article about this, gosh, 20 years ago. I said, what's the point? And my explanation, the point is, all of them are about managing parts in isolation. Looking at things in isolation. Again that's acceptability. And as I said earlier, I'm not saying acceptability is bad, I'm just saying acceptability is not desirability. And the other thing I wanna add is, why do I... My wife and I love Toyota products. I've got reason to believe through a lot of research and talking, sharing the ideas that we talk about in these podcasts with people within Toyota. And they have a desirability focus that nobody else... That I'm not aware of anybody else has. 0:16:54.9 BB: And, that's having presented around the world doing classes, at Kellogg Business School, at university. Yeah, the Kellogg Business School Northwestern University. I teach online classes at Cal State Northridge, Southern Utah University. I've lectured at many universities. And I never had anyone come to me working in industry saying, Bill, what you're talking about, we practice where I work. No. And, so, for those that are pursuing the Toyota Production System stuff. My response is, I don't buy Toyota products because they use the Toyota Production System. Now, that may help with getting the car to market faster. But I don't believe the Toyota Production System is why people buy Toyota products. I believe Toyota's quality management system... At least I buy Toyotas because I believe their quality management system, inspired by Dr. Taguchi, inspired by Dr. Deming, is providing something that nobody else has in many industries. All right. So, I wanted to get that out. 0:18:06.7 AS: So, are you saying Toyota Production System is more of a tool that is in their toolbox of quality management system? 0:18:18.4 BB: Um, the Toyota Production System is classic Industrial Engineering. 0:18:26.8 AS: Right. 0:18:27.0 BB: It's how to... 0:18:28.3 AS: It's a natural. 0:18:30.5 BB: How to improve flow, how to improve throughput by minimizing number of steps, by minimizing inventory. It's highly credited to Taiichi Ohno, who was mentored by the founder of the Toyota Motor Company. And it's all about, they don't have a lot of money. So, we need minimal inventory, minimum steps. So, it's like... So, the Toyota Production System is an efficiency based system based on, we don't have a lot of money, we're not gonna buy a lot of inventory. But the quality aspect of the Toyota Production System everywhere, everything I've written, everything I've read by people describing the Toyota Production System it's all explained by acceptability. So, that they may be moving things closer together so people don't walk so far. 0:19:27.8 BB: But what I'm looking at with Dr. Deming's work inspired by Dr. Taguchi is what is it about the quality system that causes those parts to come together so well and the products to perform so well? So, it's not just having the parts when I reach out, the part is there, but those parts integrate better. I've mentioned in the first podcast series that Toyota had 100% snap-fit pickup truck in 1969 at a time when Ford was banging things together using rubber mallets to get the parts together. They took apart and assembled a Toyota pickup truck twice 'cause they didn't believe the results the first time the parts went together without mallets. That's what I'm talking about, that within that system, the ability for the parts to come together to work together cannot be explained by an acceptability based system. And, so, having spoken with people and having the opportunity to share with people within Toyota the ideas we talk about inspired by Dr. Deming, I've learned that they do desirability in a way that nobody... I'm not aware of anyone else having done. 0:20:48.5 BB: All right, so, what I want to get into, add to the discussion tonight, relative to category thinking, is this idea of category thinking, continuum thinking. Category thinking quite simply is putting things in categories. So, in acceptability we have two categories, good or bad, or maybe three categories. It's good or it's scrap or it's rework. So, category thinking is generically putting things into categories. And so, we could look at category... Categories could be... There could be two categories, three categories. 0:21:27.1 BB: It's been a while since I've gone to see a movie, but I believe they still have a rating system of PG, PG-13, R, R-17, maybe X. Those are categories. Fruits and vegetables. Those are two high level categories. Within each of those categories, we have types of, we have apples and oranges, and within them we have types of apples. That's all category thinking. You go into a supermarket and every aisle... There's the cereal aisle. That's a category. There's the canned goods, those are categories. Religions - talk about categories. So, every religion you look at is its own category. And, then within those categories they have subcategories. How about music? How many categories in music are there Andrew? 0:22:18.9 AS: Well, it gets all messed up on my iTunes where I'm like, that's not heavy metal. That's rock. 0:22:28.6 BB: Yeah. And then there's types of rock. In the beginning it was rock and roll, and then there's types of rock and roll. 0:22:34.0 AS: Progressive rock. 0:22:34.0 BB: Progressive rock. And then we have people... So, what category would we put... I think somebody asked Lucinda Williams, we're going to see her in a few weeks. So, what category? Well, she doesn't fit a category. So, that's category thinking. Category thinking is putting things in categories. We could say, where did you go to college? That's a category. These are USC grads, those are Cal State grads. And, part of the point I want to make is that we use category thinking all the time. Putting people in categories is what we do. Such as you and our daughter are Cal State graduates. 0:23:17.6 BB: And, so, what degrees do they have? Those are categories. So, I don't know what we would do if we couldn't put things in the categories. So, I don't think category, putting people in category is not a bad thing. Now, when you start to associate values with the categories, now we're getting into racism or sexism and then, okay. But this idea that putting people in categories is a bad thing, I'd say category thinking is our simple way of organizing everything around us and these little file cabinets. Now added to that is when you put four or five things into a category, then what you're implying is that they're all the same. And that gets into acceptability. 0:24:12.8 BB: So, if this is a good part, that's a good part. That's a bad part. That's a good part. So, all the good parts go into the good part category. Then we say, oh, these are all good. Then we get into the sense of, and they're interchangeable. Well, maybe not. And that has to do with what I call continuum thinking. All right, so before we get to continuum thinking, Andrew, remember the question. What do you call the person who graduates last in their class of medical school? 0:24:43.3 AS: I don't remember that. 0:24:45.2 BB: Okay, so take a wild guess, Andrew, putting the pressure on, what do you call the person that graduates last in his or her class in medical school? 0:24:55.7 AS: Surgeon general. 0:24:56.9 BB: What's cool is that's a question I've been able to ask all around the world. Now, depending on where I go, I can't talk about baseball because they don't understand baseball. Or depending on where I go, I can't say soccer or I have to say football. Then if I say football, I have to say, well, I mean your football, not American football. But what's neat about this question, what do you call the person that graduates last in their class in medical school, that's "doctor." That's also acceptability thinking. From the first in class to the last in class, they all met requirements. Andrew, you know what that is? Acceptability. So, category thinking is a form... Acceptability is a form of category thinking. All right. Now I'm gonna give you three numbers and I'm going to ask you which two of the three are closest to being the same. You ready? 0:25:58.0 AS: Yep. 0:26:01.7 BB: 5.001, 5.999 and 6.001. 0:26:11.1 AS: 5.999 and 6.001. 0:26:17.6 BB: Are close to being the same? 0:26:18.8 AS: Yeah. 0:26:20.2 S3: That's what most people think. Okay. But... 0:26:25.7 AS: One's a six and one's a five. That's a problem. 0:26:29.5 BB: All right. And, so, again, the numbers were 5.001, 5.999 and 6.001. And the question is, which two of the three are close to being the same? And, what most people will say is 5.999 and 6.001, which infers that what does same mean? 0:26:48.5 AS: The integers? 0:26:49.1 BB: If you answered. 0:26:49.9 AS: I looked at the integers at the end rather than the whole number at the beginning. 0:26:56.7 BB: But is it safe to say you chose those numbers by saying they were closest together? 0:27:01.6 AS: Correct. Yes. 0:27:03.2 BB: So, in your case you're saying, if I plot those numbers from zero to infinity. Then those two are really close together. That's one definition of same is proximity. But, same could also be, they begin with five, in which case the first two are close to being the same. 'cause they both begin with five or they're both less than six. Or, I could say 5.001 and 6.001, because they both end in .001. So, it turns out there's three answers to the question. But the answer of the last two and proximity is what category is what continuum thinking is about. On a continuum these two are closest together. All right. 0:27:51.2 AS: And I have to tell you, we're gonna be running out of time, so we gotta wrap this up. 0:27:55.4 BB: All right. So, when I asked you the question, what do you call the person who graduates last in their class of medical school? And you said doctor, that's category thinking. If you used... Well actually the thing is, if I ask, what do you call the person who graduates last in their class at the United States, US Army's Military Academy, known as West Point, one answer is Second Lieutenant. 'cause they're all Second Lieutenants. But West Point uses continuum thinking to define the very last person in their class. So, it's the last person in class is not called second lieutenant. The last person in the class is called goat, as in the animal. 0:28:43.2 BB: And a very famous goat at West Point, who from my reading, was very proud to have graduated last because there's... I think Mike Pompeo, who was Secretary of State under president Trump, was first in his class at West Point, first in his class. A very famous, I wanna be the last person in my graduating class at West Point was George Custer. You've heard of him? 0:29:14.3 AS: Yep. 0:29:15.5 BB: And, he was deliberately lazy, so he wanted to be the very last person in his class. But that's, but the idea is that category thinking says they're all Second Lieutenants, they're all doctors. Continuum thinking is when you say this is the first, this is the second, this is the third. And when you come up, when you start to order them and say, the last one is goat, that's looking at things on a continuum, which is continuum thinking. Well, given that most quality systems, including Boeing's Advanced Quality System, are based on category thinking and category thinking, you have good parts and bad parts. When I ask a question as I brought up in the podcast five. I said I go to audiences and ask, how much time do you spend discussing parts which are good, that arrive on time? And the answer is none. And I say, well why is that? 'Cause in that system they're focusing on taking things from bad to good. And then what? Stopping at good. 0:30:20.0 BB: Well, part of the thing I wanna get across in this episode is the reason we're stuck in that model of stopping at good is because the quality system is based on category thinking of bad and good. And in a world of good and bad, there is no better. In a world of short and tall, there is no taller. And, so, continuum thinking allows us to go beyond that. And, so, going back to Dr. Deming's quote, conformance requirements, which is category thinking, zero defect, Six Sigma quality, those are all category based systems, which means it's good parts and bad parts. But then I come back to how does a system which is based on good parts and bad parts deliver such incredible reliability in the products? And, I believe it's because they're using continuum thinking. Not... And again not continuum thinking everywhere, but I think they have very judiciously figured out where to use continuum thinking and that is their differentiator. In my admiration for Dr. Deming's System of Profound Knowledge is, I've not come across any other type of management theory, which has that level of fidelity to explain that. And, in order to practice continuum thinking, implement it, you have to work together. 0:31:43.9 AS: And I'm gonna wrap this up by... One of the revelations that I come upon when I listen to what you're saying is. That's also what makes Deming's teachings sometimes hard to grasp, because there is no clear category and there is no clear beginning and end. There is no certification and therefore it's just hard for us who are used to being in categories to grasp. And that's my conclusion what I draw from everything you've just said. 0:32:16.6 BB: Well and let me add to that, really appreciate you saying that. Let me add to that,much of what I was doing at Rocketdyne... When I began to appreciate that the reason I was focusing on solving problems, solving problems and the problems we didn't solve were the problems where the customer, NASA said, we're gonna take this work and take it to the company down the street because you guys can't make it happen. And, that scared the hell out of me that we're gonna lose this work to competitors because... And when I looked at it, was why are we stuck? And I looked at Dr. Deming's work, the reason we're stuck is we're... 'cause our quality system is based on good parts and bad parts. We're waiting for trouble to happen. And, so, but still what I found is, and when I started to focus on... I went from being 100% Taguchi to more about Dr. Deming's work and trying to come up with everyday examples to make Dr. Deming's work more accessible. 0:33:16.9 BB: So, in Dr. Deming's work, you're not gonna find category thinking, continuum thinking. So many of the concepts we talk about in this series, in the prior series are... I refer to them as InThinking Concepts, just trying to make it easier for people to begin to absorb the brilliance of Dr. Deming's work. Because, I think absent that, when he says quality, what kind of quality is he talking about? Acceptability quality, desirability quality. So, I'm with you, I think the work is brilliant. I'm just hoping through our conversations and these podcasts that we can make his work far more accessible. 0:33:56.4 AS: Yep. Well, I think we're doing that. And Bill, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute and the audience, I wanna thank you again for this discussion. For listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. Of course, if you wanna keep in touch with Bill, just find him on LinkedIn. This is your host Andrew Stotz. And I'm gonna leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. "People are entitled to joy in work."

The Myth of Segmented Success: Boosting Lean with Deming (Part 2)

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 16, 2024 27:27

Is the whole simply a sum of its parts? In this episode, Jacob Stoller and Andrew Stotz discuss what happens when you divide a company into pieces and manage them separately - and what to do instead. TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.5 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we dive deeper into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my conversation with Jacob Stoller, Shingo Prize winning author of The Lean CEO and Productivity Reimagined, which explores Lean and Deming management principles at the enterprise level. The topic for today is myth number one, the myth of segmented success. Jacob, take it away. 0:00:30.4 Jacob Stoller: Great to be here with you, Andrew. And yeah, before I dive into that myth, I'd like to just start with a quote by Albert Einstein. "There is no failure in learning, but there can be in refusing to unlearn." Now that's something that's gonna occur over and over when we talk about the different myths. And the fact is, as many people have observed, unlearning can be a lot tougher than learning. So I think we always have to keep that in mind. So I want to tell a little story which kind of illustrates just how deep this unlearning can go. And this was told to me by Rich Sheridan, who has a company called Menlo Innovations, they're a software development company. And very interestingly, the theme of his work has been about joy in work. Sounds familiar? 0:01:28.3 AS: I love it. 0:01:28.5 JS: Well, he didn't really discover Dr. Deming until he had already written two of his books. So it just shows to me that there's some very underlying truths behind what Dr. Deming was teaching. But anyway, the story Rich tells is that he had his family in for a wedding. And they had a new office they'd moved into, so everyone wanted to see it. So he brought his granddaughter in, an eight-year-old. And he said, well, where do you sit, pop-pop? And he said, right here. Here's my desk. Here's my computer. And the granddaughter looked at his desk and was puzzled. You know, she said, well, where's your name? You got to have your name somewhere. And so, I mean, Sheridan was amazed. He says, I thought, wow, she already has it in her head that as CEO, I should have a corner office with a placard that showed how important I am. And you know, I felt a little embarrassed. She was somehow implying that I can't be much of a CEO if I didn't have a placard with my name on it. 0:02:35.5 JS: And she's only eight. So no, here's a CEO that's just really, really, you know, ahead of a lot of people. You know, he understands a lot of the Deming principles. And he sees just how deeply people hold these myths. She believed that there's this pyramid structure and there's got to be a CEO at the top and there have to be all these departments and people reporting to various people, et cetera, et cetera. So this really, this belief she had is really, it's sort of the pyramid that Dr. Deming described. And Dr. Deming actually wrote, he said, in The New Economics, you know, his last book, he wrote, this book is for people who are living under the tyranny of the prevailing style of management. And he talks about the pyramid. And I think that kind of encapsulates everything we're dealing with in terms of beliefs. And I'm just going to read it because he was so concise about saying it. "The pyramid only shows responsibilities for reporting who reports to whom. It shows the chain of command and accountability." 0:03:55.3 JS: "The pyramid does not describe the system of production. It does not tell anybody how his work fits into the work of other people in the company. If a pyramid conveys any message at all, it is that anybody should first and foremost, try to satisfy his boss and get a good rating. The customer is not in the pyramid. A pyramid as an organization chart, thus destroys the system, if ever one was intended." So I've never seen a more pointed description of the prevailing style of management. But think of this young girl at age eight, you know, I mean, and a lot of them, what happens is they go to school and they learn. And then maybe they eventually go to business school. And then sometime, maybe 30 years later or something, this person, this young woman is being told, we're not going to manage according to a pyramid anymore. 0:04:54.3 JS: We're gonna change the whole structure. We're gonna respect people and we're gonna respect their opinions. And we're not gonna assume that all these departments automatically fit together like building blocks. We're gonna work to define a system. All these things that Deming taught, you know, how do you think she's gonna react to that? You know, we're talking about things that this person has believed, not just from training in business school, but for years and years. So I think that kind of underlines the task we all have in terms of learning and unlearning. It's just an enormous thing we have to deal with, which is why I think it's important to look at the myths and various myths. And that's why I really worked to define those. So, when we... 0:05:46.5 AS: I would just highlight one thing about, if we go back to maybe, I don't know, constructing the pyramids, it was all about power and force, you know, get things done. It was about power and force. And I think what Dr. Deming was saying at a very, you know, many, many decades ago, he was saying that power and force are just, you know, a tiny factor in the world of business. The real motivating factor is intrinsic motivation, satisfying the customer, working together. Those types of things are the forces that will bring a much better outcome in your business, rather than just having an organizational chart that just shows the flow of power and force. 0:06:30.4 JS: Exactly. You know, and I think that if you look at the pyramid structure, it's actually a great system for consolidating power. So it works that, and, you know, but if you start to look at producing quality products and services for customers, it doesn't work at all. And, you know, so we need a new kind of logic, not this kind of logic. If we really do, like I say, we want to produce excellence. And if we want to have productivity as our competitive advantage, right? 0:07:06.4 AS: And one thing I just want to, for the listeners and viewers out there that may get confused, like what is a pyramid chart? We're talking about an organizational chart with a CEO, you know, and the like at the top, and then all the different department heads and the people below them. So Dr. Deming referred to that, and Jacob's also referring to that as a pyramid chart. Let's continue. 0:07:27.5 JS: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that. Okay. So that gets us to myth number one, because, and myth number one is the myth of segmented success. And the idea behind it is that the productive resources, this is a myth, this isn't true, but according to the myth, the productive resources of a company can be organized as a collection of independent components. The whole equals the sum of the parts. So this is essentially the glue that holds this org chart structure together. If that myth were true, then that org chart structure would be perfect for organizing a productive organization. But it is a myth. And what we see is that when you run a company according to that, with that assumption, you get into all kinds of trouble. 0:08:20.5 JS: And I'll just give you a very simple example. We have, let's say we have a company that does heating, ventilating, air conditioning, and they're selling stuff to industry, various machines, and they're installing them, and they're servicing them, all that kind of thing. Right? So let's say there's the end of the quarter and the sales rep has to make his or her numbers. Now salespeople are rewarded based on their sales numbers. Production people or the service people are rewarded based on their numbers, on how many service calls they satisfy or whatever. So installation people are rewarded for how much installing they do. So everybody's got quotas, and they're all sort of independent like components. So you get this sort of negative chain reaction where the sales rep does a big deal to make the numbers at the end of the quarter. He brings it in, the bell rings, you know, hooray, this person's made his numbers, he gets to go to Hawaii or whatever it is. Right? 0:09:27.6 JS: But let's supposing to get that deal, that's a big deal, it's high volume. So guess what? Low margin. And guess what? Maybe the sales rep had to make a few concessions to get that deal. Maybe the sales rep didn't reveal all the fine print to the customer, you know, in sort of the rush of getting the deal. So after the deal, the next quarter, well, the service department's got problems now dealing with this order. The installation department's got problems. So both of these departments have to hire extra people, have to pay overtime. So the end of that quarter, their numbers are going to look bad. Right? So that's a classic case. But it just happens over and over and over again, because you have all these different business entities compensated based on their own separate objectives as if they were separate companies. And yet that's glorified, that's seen as entrepreneurial. We'll run our department as a business, as a profit center. But they don't consider the whole overall system. So that's the kind of the tragedy, I guess, in modern business. And again, it's assuming that everything is kind of gonna work out if you manage them independently. 0:10:53.2 AS: And I was thinking that, you know, the head of the sales department is gonna be rewarding the salesperson for what they're doing. And if the head of the manufacturing or service department could anticipate that this deal that the salesperson's closing is gonna cause a lot of problems because of, you know, they're rushing it and they're trying to give great terms to get something under a deadline. There's just a very difficult for the head of the sales department to listen to that complaint to the head of, let's say the service department as an example, because they're being judged by the numbers they're delivering in their department by their boss. And so they got to kind of let it happen. 0:11:33.5 JS: Yeah. Yeah. And this is by the way, based on a real life story. And this is a company called Air Force, I think, Air Force One, it's called actually, and it's based in Ohio. It's a heating, ventilating air condition company. I could say HVAC, but they use the acronym. And they worked with Kelly Allen. And very soon after working with Kelly, they got rid of sales quotas and put everybody on salary. And the whole thing took off, you know, as the CEO told me. They're getting better deals, customers are happier, veteran sales reps are helping the younger ones close deals. Everyone's helping everybody. And the business is really, really expanded rapidly. You know, they've, I think, doubled or tripled their revenues in the last three or four years. So yeah, these things, when you get rid of these artificial barriers, businesses can really take off. And we got all kinds of case studies showing that. 0:12:45.3 AS: Yeah. And for the listeners and viewers out there, like, wait a minute, I can't do this. You know, my salespeople, they only are gonna work when they're incentivized individually as a department. I think the first thing that I would say is listen to what Jacob's telling you, listen to the stories that you're hearing and think about it. You don't have to move on it. I think that transformation in the way that you think about, you know, things takes time. And the natural reaction, when you hear something new, you know, you started with the idea of unlearning the natural reaction, when you hear something new is to say that can't work, but just keep that open mind as we continue through myth number one. So why don't you continue on, Jacob? 0:13:25.3 JS: Yeah, well, and as Kelly Alley, Kelly Allen you know, made some points on that. First of all, he said, you don't go in with your guns blazing and just take away the sales quotas. He said they worked very carefully so that CEO understood the whole system, how all the parts interact. And then once you understand the system, then you're in a position. Often people go in prematurely, remove all the sales quotas and you get chaos because people don't understand all the dependencies that are there. So it's really, really important, I think to manage the change in a responsible way. And again, as Kelly says, you've got to understand the system and how it works. 0:14:10.4 AS: Great. And I think you have more stories to tell. 0:14:14.2 JS: Oh yeah. Well, I actually a wonderful one. It's, and it's not just sales quotas, by the way, it's any kind of rating and ranking system. And one of the real classics is the, a company called Bama, Bama Foods, which is, uses Deming's principles. And the CEO, Paula Marshall, actually might've been this little girl, eight-year-old girl who was looking for the desk of the CEO 30 years later, because she started working with Deming just by accident, really, because she had taken over the company business at a young age and she, they were trying to deal with some quality problems. And she went to a Deming seminar and Dr. Deming asked who in the audience is the CEO? And she was the only one that raised her hand. And so he said, will you come and , be part of a study group? So that's how she got to work and got to become actually today's the only living CEO that's actually worked directly with Deming, or the only active CEO that's actually worked with Dr. Deming. 0:15:32.4 JS: But anyway, she started to talk with Dr. Deming about the problems they were having and he said, and she described a rating and ranking system that they had had, and they had spent, I think millions of dollars even back then with a very, very reputable consulting firm. And it was one of these things where they rank people on a scale of one to 10. And the idea was let's make all our people accountable. That's how we're going to get quality. We'll have accountability. Everybody has to be rated by their managers and we'll create some fear and we'll create some incentive for people to work harder and solve our problems. Well, the first thing Dr. Deming told her is get rid of that rating and ranking system. So it was very, very hard for her at first, you know, she'd spent a lot of money on it. And she said, you know, but eventually she said she realized that it wasn't helping the company. It wasn't doing anything, but it was still very, very hard to let go of that idea. But eventually she did. Eventually she got on a conference call. 0:16:40.3 JS: They got rid of it and the results were just incredible. She said by the, you know, everyone had hated the system and it just turned the conversation around. I mean, instead of saying, well, here's why I've ranked you, Andrew, on, I've only given you a seven instead of a nine. We would be having a sort of a constructive conversation about the problems you're facing in the workplace, how we can make things better, how can we work together, that sort of thing. So it was, it became much more constructive and much more cooperative. And they were able to evolve to a whole system where teams of people work together to solve problems. But without taking away that system, it would have been very, very difficult to do that 'cause, you know, well, that means that person will be ranked higher than me maybe, you know. 0:17:31.2 AS: And we know very well in the area of sports that, you know, great coaches are not sitting there ranking and rating and ranking their employees and beating them over the head with that. They're trying to identify the strengths and weaknesses. How do we, you know, build this team so that we can beat the other teams? And that really requires coordination. And if you do rating and ranking type of thing, you start to destroy coordination. And for those people that are thinking, of course, you know, I'm terrified to look at this and remove my rating and ranking. One thing you can do is take, you know, five or 10 people that you respect their opinion within the company and ask them how they feel about the rating and ranking system. And you'd be surprised what you hear. 0:18:15.3 JS: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure. Right. And, but yeah, about the sports team, I guess. Yeah. I mean, there's some documentaries on the Chicago Bulls, you know, and I think they had some very good stories about teamwork and stuff like that. 0:18:30.5 AS: Well, Phil Jackson was amazing in that the documentary on Netflix was great, The Last Dance. But what you can see and you can hear it from the players, I think Dennis Rodman was a great example where Phil Jackson understood how to deal with this kind of disruptive kind of situation and guy. How do you deal with that and get the most out of him on the court in a way that still follows the values of yourself and your team? And he just showed that very well in that. And so I think that that was a great example of how you coordinate your resources. 0:19:08.5 JS: Yeah, a great example, I think, for people to watch. Yeah, 'cause it really does. It does really show that. 0:19:15.3 AS: You know, you were talking to me about just before we turned on the recorder about Deming was a scientist and physics and all this, some things I never even thought about. But maybe you can tell us a little bit about your thoughts in that area. 0:19:28.4 JS: Yeah, you know, I mean, I think that, first of all, the when you look at the traditional pyramid and all the traditional style of management, I mean, that's really based on reductionism, cause-and-effect. Essentially, it's Newton, you know, it's Newton's golden principles. So you have a business system that's built on 17th century logic, basically. And so what I think is wonderful about Dr. Deming, I mean, we think of him as this philosopher. But here he was, Dr. Deming in the 1920s, getting his PhD in mathematical physics. So at the time he's doing his PhD, I mean, there's Heisenberg developing his uncertainty theorems, all that kind of stuff was just exploding. And the whole view that people had of the physical world was just being turned upside down. So Dr. Deming was very, very cognizant of that. 0:20:35.2 JS: You know, when it started, you know, with statistics, but gosh, you know, science of psychology was changing too. And I think Deming, you know, when you read him, he was really thinking like a scientist. You know, this is the way the world works. And was very, very sensitive about all the components of that. You know, the science of the way people think and what motivates them. You know, he knew that people aren't motivated by sticks and carrots. And we'll talk about that later. He knew that there are limits to how much you can know if you're not right there in the workplace. You know, he understood all that because of variation. But I think when he was introducing those ideas, people really weren't thinking that way. I think they are a bit more today, but he was really a pioneer in that. 0:21:33.4 AS: Yeah. In fact, I was just looking at, he got his degree in mathematical physics from Yale university in 1928. So yeah, there was a lot going on in the world then. 0:21:46.3 JS: Sure was. Yeah. So yeah. And he, I guess he's very patient with us. You know, you think of someone having a degree like that talking, you know, over everybody's heads, but I think he really developed the style of communicating. 0:22:06.5 AS: So what else you got for us on this topic? I think you had some takeaways that you mentioned some four points or some other items. 0:22:14.3 JS: Sure. Yeah. I can, I did summarize at the end of the chapter just to sort of a bluffers guide, I guess, to, you know, this myth of segmented success. But, you know, first of all, you know, as we were just saying, conventional management practices are based on an outdated view of the world that emphasizes reductionism and predictability and ignores the influence of complexity and interdependencies. So you don't see how things actually affect each other in a company. Operating companies so that interdependencies are reflected in management practices and understood by all employees enables wide engagement in improving quality and productivity. To create a strong team environment, managers need to remove barriers such as siloed incentive plans and clearly communicate the aim of the organization. And finally, recent lessons from supply chain disruptions during the COVID epidemic show how segmentation extends beyond the walls of a company and how closer collaboration with supply chain partners can prevent such disruptions. 0:23:41.3 AS: So how would you, let me ask you, how would you wrap everything up in a very short statement? What do you want people to remember? 0:23:53.4 JS: I want people to remember that just because it says so in an org chart doesn't mean that that reflects the way things actually happen. 0:24:05.7 AS: Yeah, that's a great one. And I think we're trained, and this is where Dr. Deming used to say that, you know, what we're being taught in management schools, you know, is the wrong thing. And this is exact type of thing where we're talking about this concept of the, you know, the org chart and the way power flows and all of that stuff. So yeah, great points. 0:24:28.4 JS: Yeah. Not only in management school, but in grade school, you know, when we're rating and ranking kids before they even know how to learn and read, even before they know how to read and write. 0:24:41.2 AS: Yeah. And that brings us back to that first story where a kid walks in and what has she seen? She's seen the teacher and the principal with the name tag at the front, in front of the class. 0:24:53.4 JS: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know if we can keep talking, but you know, Rich Sheridan also discovered a drawing, which is actually, it's a diagram in The New Economics, but it shows how people's creativity and joy in work and stuff are systematically destroyed throughout their lifetime. They're constantly put down by teachers, principals, and they go to college and university and there's competition. And then they go into the workplace and they're rated and ranked. And it just destroys the natural of joy in work that people have and the enthusiasm people could have in the workplace. 0:25:39.5 AS: And for those listeners out there who used to listen to The Wall by Pink Floyd, Roger Waters was talking about how the school system was just pounding out any creativity, any fun, any joy. And so it's not unusual. And it's the case in many educational systems around the world. And so I think, you know, this is a good reminder of, you know, joy in work. And also this idea of segmented success. I think you had a statement that you said to me just before we started, which I thought summed it up perfectly, which was the whole doesn't equal the sum of the parts. 0:26:18.3 JS: Yeah, that's exactly. And we can basically reduce it all to that. 0:26:28.4 AS: Yeah. So I'm going to wrap up there. So for ladies and gentlemen, I think that's a great description of myth number one in Jacob's book, but I think ending it with this, the whole doesn't equal the sum of the parts, helps us all to realize that, you know, just bringing competition between different people and different units within an organization does not bring the optimum output. Jacob, on behalf of everyone at Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for the discussion and for listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. You can find Jacob's book, Productivity Reimagined at jacobstoller.com. And this is your host Andrew Stotz. And I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming. We've been talking about it today. "People are entitled to joy in work".

Morning Show 09 - 09 - 24 Hour 3 Kelly Allen Tax Cuts - WVSP Speeeding

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Play Episode Listen Later Sep 9, 2024 51:00

Morning Show 09 - 09 - 24 Hour 3 Kelly Allen Tax Cuts - WVSP Speeeding by The Watchdog

Urban Senior Jobs Program is Empowering and Training Local Seniors!

Larry Richert and John Shumway

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 21, 2024 5:17

Carlos T. Carter, and Kelly Allen call in from the Urban League of Greater Pittsburgh. Kelly Allen talks with Larry about the Urban Senior Jobs Program. She says it is Empowering and Training Local Seniors

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Talkline for Wednesday, July 24, 2024

Talkline with Hoppy Kercheval

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 24, 2024 107:34

Today Hoppy is joined by Brad McElhinny, Jared Halpern, Danny Jones, Rex Repass, Dr. Osvaldo Navia, and Kelly Allen.

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Morning Show 07 - 02 - 24 Hour 3 WV Tax Cuts - Kelly Allen - - Mr Beast - -

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Play Episode Listen Later Jul 2, 2024 51:13

Morning Show 07 - 02 - 24 Hour 3 WV Tax Cuts - Kelly Allen - - Mr Beast - - by The Watchdog

18. Summer Shorts: Hip-Hop, Grades and Good Teaching

Speaking of Higher Ed: Conversations on Teaching and Learning

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 19, 2024 8:02

On this Summer Shorts episode, we highlight transformative approaches in teaching and learning, including hip-hop pedagogy, documenting effective teaching, and innovative grading practices. In episode nine, Dr. Lauren Barbeau from Georgia Tech discusses her publication on the Critical Teaching Behaviors framework, which provides a comprehensive system to identify and discuss good teaching, offering a common language across disciplines. In episode eleven, we talk with Dr. Dan Kaminstein of the Medical College of Georgia, who challenges traditional grading systems and advocates for alternative assessment strategies that promote continuous learning and student engagement. Finally, in episode sixteen, we explore the world of hip-hop pedagogy with Dr. Kelly Allen from Augusta University, who demonstrates how integrating hip-hop culture into education can boost student motivation and academic success. Subscribe and stay connected for new episodes every third Wednesday of the month during spring and fall semesters.

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Steve Kenyon Podcast EP 47

The Steve Kenyon Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jun 6, 2024 43:19

This week a rare three part show. Our Classic Equine/Classic Ropes Featured interview is with Pam and Billy Minick, a pair of Hall of Famers. You'll hear from top saddle bronc riding Resistol Rookie Zac Dallas and from barrel racer Kelly Allen courtesy of NextGenRodeo. Please check out Patreon.com/8SecondsMedia34...Our new 8SecondsMedia Xtra Site!

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16. Hip-Hop Pedagogy with Kelly Allen, PhD

Speaking of Higher Ed: Conversations on Teaching and Learning

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 17, 2024 44:16

What is Hip-Hop pedagogy? How can the use of Hip-Hop culture in curriculum engage students and create relevant connections to course content? Kelly R. Allen, PhD, is an Assistant Professor of Curriculum Studies in the College of Education and Human Development Department of Research, Counseling, and Curriculum at Augusta University and advocate for the implementation of Hip-Hop based education. During Allen's early years as a high school social studies teacher, she discovered the power of using Hip-Hop culture in her teaching. Seeing that it was “more than a hook”, but instead something to be infused in all aspects of her courses. Hip-hop culture has since been an integral part of her research and teaching. Dr. Allen discusses the 5 aspects of Hip-Hop culture, describing how and why they allow students to engage, feel empowered and find relevance in course content. She discusses the past and current perceptions of Hip-Hop pedagogy in academia and how she sees it moving forward in the higher education space. Dr. Allen concludes with tips and advice for practitioners on how to incorporate Hip-Hop pedagogy into their teaching. If you are interested in learning more about Dr. Allen and her work, you can connect with her X (formerly Twitter). Speaking of Higher Ed is produced by the Center for Instructional Innovation at Augusta University. Find more episodes and resources on our show page. Subscribe now so you don't miss an episode.

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Episode 135: GO INTO YOUR DANCE: The Queer Backstage Novels of Bradford Ropes, part 3

BROADWAY NATION

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 7, 2024 44:52

My guest again this week is author Maya Cantu who returns for the third and final part of our conversation about her fascinating book: Greasepaint Puritan — Boston to 42nd Street in the Queer Backstage Novels of Bradford Ropes. In this episode we focus on Ropes' 1934 novel, Go Into Your Dance, the third in his evocative backstage trilogy which also includes 42nd Street (the source material for both the classic film and the stage musical), and Stage Mother, (a sort of proto version of Gypsy). All three of these novels were heavily inspired by Ropes' actual experiences as a dancer and performer on Broadway and in Vaudeville during the 1920s. To a great extent Go Into Your Dance is a roman á clef of the star dancer & legendary showman George White and his scandals, both professional and personal, including his long-standing relationship with Broadway star Ann Pennington, fictionalized by Ropes as "Ted Howard," who rises from messenger boy to dancer to one of the most powerful figures on Broadway, and his indispensable collaborator, "Nora Wayne." Ted Howard's series of "Town Talk" revues become major competition for "Lane's Frivolities" (Ziegfeld Follies), and along the way he interacts with figures from what Maya and I dub the "Bradford Ropes Literary Universe" such as producer/director, "Julian Marsh," dance director, "Andy Lee," and "the Wilson Brothers," a thinly disguised version of the Shuberts). Of perhaps greatest interest are the two gay chorus boys, Arthur and Bobby, who befriend Ted when he joins the chorus of Marsh's musical "Sweet Sally," and play a crucial role in the plot of this remarkable novel. Maya and I also discuss the major themes that tie these novels together, as well as her remarkable six-year journey in unearthing and re-discovering the life and work of Bradford Ropes. If you missed the first two episodes in this series you may want to catch up with those before listening to this one. May Cantu is a dramaturg and historian who teaches on the Drama Faculty of Bennington College and is also the author of American Cinderella on the Broadway Musical Stage: Imagining the Working Girl from “Irene” to “Gypsy”. Become a PATRON of Broadway Nation! I want to thank our Broadway Nation Patron Club members, such as longtime members Kelly Allen and Elizabeth Troxler., whose generous support helps to make it possible for me to bring this podcast to you each week. If you would like to support the creation of Broadway Nation, here is the information about how you too can become a patron. For just $7.00 a month, you will receive exclusive access to never-before-heard, unedited versions of many of the discussions that I have with my guests — in fact I often record nearly twice as much conversation as ends up in the edited versions. You will also have access to additional in-depth conversations with my frequent co-host Albert Evans that have not been featured on the podcast. All patrons receive special “on-air” shout-outs and acknowledgment of your vital support of this podcast. And if you are very enthusiastic about Broadway Nation there are additional PATRON levels that come with even more benefits. If you would like to support the work of Broadway Nation and receive these exclusive member benefits, please just click on this link: https://broadwaynationpodcast.supercast.tech/ Thank you in advance for your support! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Urban League of Greater Pittsburgh: Urban Senior Jobs Program

Larry Richert and John Shumway

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 6, 2024 9:08

Kelly Allen, Director Center for Economic and Self Reliance at the Urban League of Greater Pittsburgh, joins Paul and Marty to discuss the Urban Senior Jobs Program and empowering and training local seniors.

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Talkline LIVE From the WV Capitol Rotunda for Wednesday, February 28, 2024

Talkline with Hoppy Kercheval

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 28, 2024 107:21

Today Hoppy is joined by Craig Blair, Amy Nicole Grady, Brad McElhinny, Wes Eddy, Kelly Allen, Jeff Jenkins, Dale Lee, and Fred Albert

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Is Wine Sustainable? Artemisia Farm

Organic Wine Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 21, 2024 110:53

My guests for this episode are Kelly Allen and Andrew Napier of Artemisia Farm in Virginia. They are hybrid grape growers, and winemakers, aromatized wine makers, makers of wine made with native American fruits besides grapes, writers and publishers, wine faire organizers, farmers who do a regular CSA, foragers, and passionate entrepreneurs. But more than that they are incredibly thoughtful about everything they do, and they are really enjoyable to talk to, which never hurts. Now, one important thing that is worth mentioning. Kelly and Andrew use lots of wild fruits and ingredients, as well as some permaculture farmed fruits – so things that are far beyond organic – and they use some other farmed fruits that are farmed organically though not certified. But they don't farm their hybrid grapes organically. This is an intentional choice they make because they believe it is the more ecological choice in their context. Virginia, for those who aren't familiar, is a subtropical climate that also has cold winters. Their growing season is hot, sticky, humid, and wet… and the perfect conditions for every grape fungal and insect pest. In these conditions, many people in Virginia are growing vinifera. To do this often takes weekly applications of chemical sprays, as many as 15-25 conventional sprays in a growing season. That is frankly insane and is tantamount to poisoning our environment. But Organic sprays, which are less effective, often need to be applied at least as frequently in Virginia – that is weekly - even when using resistant hybrid grapes, which means a lot of substance buildup and compaction and fossil fuel use. Meanwhile Kelly and Andrew can spray their hybrids once per month and are learning how to manage the vineyard so they can do even less. I'm not saying what's right or wrong here, I'm saying that if you are trying to grow grapes in the most ecological way in this context, I think an organic label doesn't give you enough information and there are likely compromises to any path you take. However, Kelly and Andrew and I all agree that growing vinifera in Virginia is not only foolish, it's irresponsible, and we aren't afraid to piss some people off by saying that. This conversation is information rich! Support this episode by subscribing via patreon. Sponsors: https://paicineslearning.org/events/regenerative-winegrowing-workshop/

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Budgets, Taxes And Clean Energy Jobs On This West Virginia Morning

West Virginia Morning

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 29, 2024

On this West Virginia Morning, state lawmakers are mulling over countless tax proposals that would directly affect West Virginians and their wallets. On Friday's episode of The Legislature Today, Randy Yohe spoke with House Speaker Roger Hanshaw, R-Clay, and Kelly Allen, the executive director at the West Virginia Center on Budget & Policy, to discuss budgets and taxes. The post Budgets, Taxes And Clean Energy Jobs On This West Virginia Morning appeared first on West Virginia Public Broadcasting.

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E33 - Adult ADHD and Nervous System Regulation ft. Kelly Allen Pickens

Red Beard Embodiment Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 29, 2023 63:38

In this episode of the Red Beard Embodiment Podcast, we delve into an in-depth conversation with Kelly Allen Pickens, a Family Nurse Practitioner and a specialist in ADHD treatment for women and girls. Alex and Kelly shed light on a multitude of topics related to ADHD, extensively discussing the correlation between ADHD and a range of conditions including addiction, impulsive behaviors, and longer-term health conditions. Kelly openly talked about her practice, Undivided Attention, and the challenges she faced to provide devoted care to her patients, especially women and girls who struggle to find compassionate approaches in managing ADHD.We get into the details about the evaluation process, the role of medication and coaching in managing ADHD, and the empowerment of understanding oneself and developing self-compassion. The duo also discusses the role of trauma, environmental factors, genetic factors, and hormone transitions in ADHD. The conversation further extends to the influence of social media on ADHD awareness, and the importance of neuroscience research in ADHD treatment and management.Don't miss out on this insightful conversation that seamlessly blends healthcare, mental health care issues, and key societal points that relate directly to ADHD. Links and Resources Mentioned:Undivided Attention: https://www.uaadhd.com/ ADDitude Mag https://www.additudemag.com/ Chadd.org https://chadd.org/ Key Highlights:00:00 Introduction and Background02:20 Discovering ADHD06:42 Realizing Personal Experience with ADHD07:07 Misconceptions about ADHD08:12 Genetic and Environmental Factors of ADHD10:29 Increased Awareness of ADHD13:11 ADHD Research and Clinical Implementation14:10 Misconceptions about ADHD Symptoms15:44 ADHD as a Disorder of Doing18:00 Genetic and Environmental Factors of ADHD21:19 The Influence of Childhood Stress and Trauma23:13 The Interplay of ADHD and Adverse Childhood Experiences26:19 Personal Journey and Focus on Women and Girls32:00 ADHD Coaching and Medication45:18 Understanding ADHD Symptoms49:16 Medication and Treatment55:23 The Role of the Autonomic Nervous System56:03 Rejection Sensitivity Dysphoria

The Urban League's Senior Jobs programs

Larry Richert and John Shumway

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 6, 2023 3:45

Carlos T. Carter, President/CEO of the Urban League of Greater Pittsburgh joins Larry and Marty along with Kelly Allen, the Director of Economic Self-Reliance at the Urban League to discuss the Urban Senior Jobs Program.

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Medicare, child protective services and foster care in West Virginia

Play Episode Listen Later Oct 30, 2023 22:32

Our first guest this week is WV Delegate Sean Hornbuckle (D-Cabell). The House Minority Leader shares his party's concerns regarding the shortage of child protective services workers in the Mountain State and what he believes needs done to fix the ongoing issue. He also touches on employment issues impacting West Virginians.In Segment 2, U.S. Congressmen Alex Mooney joins us to discuss the whirlwind effort in Washington of trying to find a new Speaker of the House. When we spoke with Mooney, Tom Emmer (R-IN) was still the nominee. By that same evening he had dropped from the race. By Wednesday afternoon, the new nominee Mike Johnson (R-LA) secured enough votes and was sworn into the position.For our third segment, we turn back to child welfare in the Mountain State with Kelly Allen who works for the West Virginia Center on Budget and Policy. Allen talks about the statistics of West Virginia having the highest rate of foster children in the nation, meaning for every 1,000 West Virginia kids, 13 are in foster care. She also shares more about what needs to be done to help children and their families before they reach a point of crisis.In our last segment, we sit down with Kim Newsome of the West Virginia Aging and Disability Resource Center to discuss the importance of Medicare's open enrollment period, which is happening now. The center offers free resources to help Medicare recipients navigate through the process and find the Medicare plan that is best for them.

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Hip Hop Education

Black Gaze

Play Episode Listen Later Sep 27, 2023 73:51

Dr. Porcher & Dr. Bertrand, co-host with Dr. Kelly Allen & Dr. Edmund Adjapong to discuss the celebration of 50 years of Hip Hop and the importance and power of Hip Hop Education. Dr. Kelly R. Allen is an Assistant Professor of Curriculum Studies in the College of Education and Human Development at Augusta University. Informed by her experiences as a high school social studies teacher, Kelly's research explores hip-hop as a Black liberatory praxis. Dr. Edmund Adjapong is an Associate Professor of Education at Seton Hall University. He is also a faculty fellow at The Institute for Urban and Multicultural Education at Teachers College, Columbia University and author of #HipHopEd: The Compilation on Hip-Hop Education Volume 1. Dr. Adjapong is a former middle school science educator at a New York City public school in The Bronx. He is the director of the Science Genius Program, a program that engages urban students in the sciences through Hip-Hop, and the director of The Science Genius Academy, a program that encourages and prepares students to pursue STEM careers while providing mentoring and support. Dr. Adjapong is a STEM and Urban Education advocate whose work and research addresses issues of race, class, inequities in education and misperceptions of urban youth. He focuses on how to incorporate youth culture into educational spaces. Dr. Adjapong has experience conducting seminars and workshops for businesses and universities. Dr. Adjapong & Dr. Allen are the co-authors of the upcoming book Teaching for Liberation: On Freedom Dreaming in the Field of Hip-Hop Education. You can pre-order the book right now, here. The book will be available on November 30th, 2023! If you are about this Hip Hop Education life, cop this book now! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/black-gaze/support

The state of jails and prisons in West Virginia

Where Rodeo Meets The Road!

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 28, 2023 22:29

CHARLESTON, WV (WOWK) -- On this week's episode of Inside West Virginia Politics, we talk about jails and prisons, spending, and Veterans. In Segments One and Two we talk about the state of jails and prisons in West Virginia. Segment One includes Bishop Mark Brennan, Catholic Diocese of Wheeling-Charleston, and Segment Two includes Rev. Jeff Allen, West Virginia Council of Churches. In Segment Three, we talk to Kelly Allen, WV Center of Budget & Policy, about spending. We end today's episode with Capt. James McCormick (Ret.), Vets for Vet Leadership, about Veterans.

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59- Kelly Allen- WPRA Barrel Racer

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 8, 2023 29:45

"Hey everybody, welcome to our show where rodeo meets the road! Today, we have a very special guest, Kelly Allen. Kelly is currently number 12 in the WPRA standings and has been competing with her mare Cinco at over 70 rodeos this year. With about 45 days left in the season, Kelly is trying to stay in the top 15 to earn her first trip to Las Vegas to the NFR. Kelly and Cinco have been very consistent this year, earning over $70,000. In this episode Kelly talks about rodeo ground and what it takes to get to Las Vegas --- Send in a voice message: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/the-arena-press/message

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3CMA COMMCAST 031: Orlando Annual Conference Preview Spectacular!

3CMA COMMcast

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 14, 2023 21:10

3CMA COMMCAST 031: Orlando Annual Conference Preview - Everything You Ever Needed to Know about Coming To Orlando in September … And Then Some. Do you like theme parks, roller coasters, palm trees, warm breezes, good food, good friends, excellent networking and the best professional learning experience of the year? Yes? Well, we've got you covered. April Michael and Kelly Allen from the City of Orlando tell us all the reasons we want to be in central Florida while the 3CMA Staff - Scott, Cathryn and Michelle - fill us in on what's happening at the conference.

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The Status of Paid Leave in WV: An Interview with Kelly Allen

Wild and Wonderful Women

Play Episode Listen Later May 27, 2023 33:31

In this episode, we discuss paid leave in West Virginia, including the varied reasons why someone might need this option and the barriers to access that currently exist. Kelly Allen, the executive director at the West Virginia Center on Budget and Policy, shares her expertise on the topic and her vision for paid leave in our state to allow individuals to care for themselves and their loved ones.

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Episode One Hundred Twenty-One

RC Top 3

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 24, 2023 12:12

"Life Is a Beautiful Gift": Mary Peach on Sharing the Gift of Her Faith with Joy When Mary Peach was just 12 years old, her entire life changed. Since then, through the gift of adoption, she has embarked on a beautiful life of healing, thriving, and continually sharing her faith and her love for God in new and creative ways. 7:39 Are We There Yet? If you have ever taken a road trip with young children, you know the proverbial, "Are we there yet?" Sometimes our spiritual lives resemble a road trip. We know the desired destination is sanctification in heaven, but we seldom journey on a path devoid of diversions. Read more here at the Weekly Email for RC Spirituality. 10:41 Kelly Allen, Consecrated Woman of Regnum Christi, Begins Working in the Dicastery for the Promotion of Christian Unity in the Vatican Kelly Allen, Consecrated Woman of Regnum Christi, was recently hired by the Dicastery for the Promotion of Christian Unity in the Vatican, to collaborate in ecumenical relations with the different Christian Churches of the West and East, as well as with the Jewish people.

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Episode 105: Two Degrees of George Abbott, The Abbott Touch, part 2

BROADWAY NATION

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 20, 2023 34:28

This is the second half of my conversation with Thomas Hischak whose new book is titled The Abbott Touch — Pal Joey, Damn Yankees and the Theatre of George Abbott. If you missed part one, you may want to catch up with the previous episode before listening to this one. George Abbott was a major force in the American Theater for more than 80 years. As an actor, director, playwright, and producer — and often several of those at the same time — he played a significant role in the creation of well over 100 Broadway plays and musicals including Jumbo, The Boys From Syracuse, On The Town, Where's Charlie, Call Me Madam, The Pajama Game, Once Upon A Mattress and Fiorello to name only a few. Thomas Hischak is the author of more than 30 books about Broadway, Hollywood and popular music including Musical Misfires — three decades of Broadway Musical heartbreak, The Mikado to Matilda — British Musicals on the New York Stage, and the Tin Pan Alley Encyclopedia. At the end of our previous episode Thomas Hischak and I were just beginning a discussion of the remarkable list of Broadway greatest writers, directors and choreographers who were all in essence trained and mentored by Mr. Abbott including Rodgers & Hart, Comden, Green & Bernstein, Adler & Ross, Bock & Harnick, Kander & Ebb, Jerome Robbins and most especially, Harold Prince. We also explore his reputation as a "show doctor." We will never now how many shows he advised and "fixed" on their way to Broadway. Become A PATRON of Broadway Nation! This episode is made possible in part through the generous support of Patron Club members Kelly Allen, Roger Klorese, and Neil Hoyt. If you too would like to support the work of Broadway Nation I will have information at the end of this podcast about how you too can join the club. If you are a fan ofBroadway Nation, I invite you to become a PATRON! For a just $7.00 a month you can receive exclusive access to never-before-heard, unedited versions of many of the discussion that I have with my guests — in fact I often record nearly twice as much conversation as ends up in the edited versions. And you will also have access to additional in-depth conversations with my frequent co-host Albert Evans that have not been featured on the podcast. And all patrons receive special “on-air” shout-outs and acknowledgement of your vital support of this podcast. And If you are very enthusiastic about Broadway Nation there are additional PATRON levels that come with even more benefits. If you would like to support the work of Broadway Nation and receive these exclusive member benefits, please just click on this link: https://broadwaynationpodcast.supercast.tech/ Thank you in advance for your support! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Who is running in the West Virginia Congressional District 2 race?

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 3, 2023 22:29

CHARLESTON, WV (WOWK) — On this week's episode of Inside West Virginia Politics, we talk about candidates for U.S. House District 2 in West Virginia. Segment One is with Nate Cain (R-U.S. House District 2 Candidate) and Segment Two is with Joseph Earley (R-U.S. House District 2 Candidate). Rep. Carol Miller (R-WV) calls in to talk about her trip to Mexico and why she went. We end today's episode with Kelly Allen, West Virginia Center on Budget and Policy, to talk about the legislature.

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Applying SoPK: Deming in Schools Case Study (Part 2)

dogs member spotlight sportsman dog trainers griffon kelly allen

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 14, 2023 22:01

Most people come into education familiar with classroom management and curriculum, but the concept of Profound Knowledge changes the way you view the entire field and your part in it. In the second episode of the Deming in Schools Case Study, Andrew and John talk about applying the System of Profound Knowledge to education. 0:00:02.0 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with John Dues, who is part of the new generation of educators striving to apply Dr. Deming's principles to unleash student joy in learning. The topic for today is applying Deming's system of profound knowledge in education. John, take it away. 0:00:26.8 John Dues: Andrew, it's great to be back. And excited to talk about this. One of the things I was talking about after... Thinking about after our last conversation was a moment I had where I realized as I worked with some senior leaders here is we have these two buckets of knowledge, one bucket I would call subject matter knowledge, and we talked about this a little bit last time, by subject matter, I don't mean knowing, reading or social studies or writing, but I mean the things that you need to know in your field, so for us it's classroom management, how to deliver a lesson, how to design a curriculum, those types of things, and that's always sort of been a part of my work and gained proficiency in that bucket over time, but what I realized in studying Deming is there's this whole other bucket or type of knowledge, what Deming called Profound Knowledge and that was missing across most of my career, and it was a revelation to understand that, "Hey, we need both of these things together to have any chance at improving our schools." 0:01:35.4 AS: It's interesting because the whole focus in most of education is to become a subject matter expert, and that's what's rewarded, that's what we're doing. And this whole way of, how do we see the world? Is such a unique thing. Maybe you can just go through a little bit on the system of profound knowledge as when you first came to it, and what does it mean to you? 0:02:04.4 JD: Yeah, I've been studying it for a handful of years now. Increasingly, it became this sort of foundational philosophy, and it really changed how I view the world, honestly, it wasn't only sort of in my work, although that's sort of where I started thinking most about Deming's ideas. It changed also sort of how I thought about my personal life, family, my own kids in school and their experience in school, so I had a profound impact on just about everything I was doing in my life, that's pretty foundational to discover a philosophy like this... 0:02:51.3 AS: Yeah, that's... I remember when I first understand... For me, it was variation and randomness that really kind of hit me because I was also working in the stock market, and I could see that there was a lot of randomness in the movement of stock prices, and then it was like all of a sudden, what I learned from the randomness aspect and the variation aspect was just like, it's like there's carpeting that we're walking on that nobody even realizes it's underlying everything, and it is this randomness, and we are trained to reject randomness because we're rugged individualists who are setting our own path and it's up to us to make a difference. And that type of thinking basically has to reject the role of randomness, so I know what you're saying about... That started to change the way I viewed the world. Continue on. 0:03:54.2 JD: I think building off what you're saying, there's a variation component to that, and that was sort of an entry point for me too as I read Donald Wheeler's Understanding Variation, which is sort of completely changed how I looked at numbers and data in our work here in schools, but I also think of what I'm hearing in what you're saying is complex systems, and so I think there was sort of an appreciation for systems thinking prior to Deming, but not in the same way, but I think for a lot of folks it's if we do A to B then C is gonna happen. And that's just not how things sort of unfolded in a complex system, be it schools or a company or a society or whatever you may be looking at, if you do A, then that may impact B, C, D, E, F, G in a certain way, and the outcome is gonna be impacted by all of those things, all of those changes, and I think that's sort of... You can start to see that when you start to understand variation, and then that other component, or first component of Deming's Profound Knowledge is Appreciation for a System. 0:05:07.4 JD: And I think that's sort of what he's getting at, that it's really hard to find causal links between things and if we're gonna search for those, then we need to appreciate our organizations as a system, how all of the departments or all of the grade levels in the case of a school are working together or not, and how something you do in one part of that system can impact positively or negatively, other parts of the system, even if what you did in the part of the system was a positive for that part of the system, they can actually destroy the system, and so all of these things were revelations or at least confirmations of things that maybe were in the back of my mind, before I had this understanding in writing from studying Deming's philosophy. 0:06:00.7 AS: And for the listeners or the viewers who aren't familiar with the System of Profound Knowledge, maybe you can just review the four points of it or the four parts, a little bit more. 0:06:12.2 JD: Yeah, System of Profound Knowledge. So four components, Appreciation for a System, Knowledge about Variation, Theory of knowledge and Psychology, and he called them a System of Profound Knowledge because the four components work together, that's the system part. And Profound Knowledge, what I learned over time, is that, what he meant by that is just sort of the deep understanding that comes through viewing your organization through the lens of Profound Knowledge, so when you bring those four things together, you get a different view of your organization, than without Profound Knowledge. And without Profound Knowledge, you are often misled, you often don't know when to react or not to react to something that's going on in your organization or system, with Profound Knowledge you now have a management philosophy by which to interpret that data that comes streaming at you, no matter what industry you're in, and gives you a way to map out how to react or again, not to react to that data. 0:07:18.8 AS: It makes me think there's a saying in Thai language about a frog under a coconut, and when you lift up the coconut, the frog kind of wants the coconut back on because that's their world. And I think about when you really come across the System of Profound Knowledge and you understand it, it's like that coconut comes off and you realize, Oh my God, I am part of a much bigger system, and all of a sudden things just open up and what was your experience when you first kind of started really realizing how this all works together. 0:08:00.3 JD: Well, maybe unlike the frog, I didn't wanna unsee it or I didn't want to be recovered, however, there certainly was... Well one, it took time for me to sort of understand what exactly Dr. Deming was saying, and I'm still trying to understand that fully, but the hardest thing was probably talking to people, really smart people, about Profound Knowledge and maybe them not sort of seeing the importance of it or the same level of importance that I thought that they should see or where we'll talk about it, it would be well-received, but then people would turn around and sort of revert back to the old way of thinking. And for me, it was just realizing that this just takes repeated practice, because it is really a completely new way of thinking. 0:09:00.9 JD: It's a completely new way to look at data or your systems, it's a completely new way to think about how do you bring new ideas to your organization, how do you test those ideas, it's really getting away from simple things like setting a goal without a method, it's appreciating the psychology of introducing changes to your organization. I found people are generally very open to new things, what they're not open to is being sort of yanked about constantly when we try this thing and that thing, and education has the same sort of problem in this area that other sectors like healthcare do, where the frontline people, teachers in our case, nurses in the case of healthcare where they're often being pulled this way and that with new initiatives to the point they get this initiative fatigue will wear people out and burn people out and then they leave because each leader comes in with their own pet idea and it's not grounded in this sort of solid philosophical foundation. 0:10:13.3 AS: One of the things that's interesting about the system of profound knowledge is that it can be a bit overwhelming for someone who's first coming upon it because it's like, Oh my God, there's a much bigger aim, and one of the reasons why we don't think in a systems way and why we do think silos is because it's easier, and so for some people it can feel like, Oh God, this is just overwhelming, and I'm just curious what your perspectives are on that, either for yourself or the people that you're working with there, and how do we make sure that you don't get overwhelmed by it? 0:10:57.6 JD: Yeah, it's a challenge because I originally came to the Deming Institute website and the profound knowledge page and went away because it didn't make sense to me initially, and it was two years later when I came back, and not that it was sort of some divine revelation, but I slowly, over time, it started to sink in, something caught my attention that this was worthy of study. So one thing I read, Dr. Deming said, you don't need to be eminent in all four areas or even any one of the four areas, but it does require serious study, so you're not gonna understand it in a day or a week or a month. I would also say anybody that gets serious about studying this philosophy, I would highly recommend reaching out to somebody that is further along in their understanding, and that's sort of a turning point, I think I mentioned in the last episode. Reaching out to Kelly Allen, who turned me on to David Langford that accelerated my learning, 'cause I could ask specific questions, and David could give me specific applications of Deming's ideas in schools, and that certainly helped to clarify a lot of things for me. 0:12:08.3 JD: So that's something I would highly recommend, but I would read widely, watch the videos, you can go to a four-day or sorry, two and half day seminar that the Institute does, and then reaching out to someone that is further along is something I'd highly recommend. 0:12:27.1 AS: Yeah, great advice. And just this podcast already is a starting point for the listeners out there. 0:12:33.2 JD: Yep, absolutely. 0:12:34.8 AS: One of the things that I say to my students in my valuation master class, they come to my class because it's like, Andrew, you got 30 years of experience as a financial analyst, and you were voted number one and you... This and that, and I really wanna learn from you. And when I come into class, I announce a couple of the things... And one of the things is I say, You Are Always Wrong. And I call it YAAW. And I try to help the students understand it, in the world of finance, there is no precision, like in the world of physics or the law of gravity or something like that, that you're always going to be wrong and therefore don't freak out over that. Understand that it's a system. The second thing that I tell the students, and this one I think really gets them, they don't really figure it out until the end, and that is in my class and in the world of finance, what I teach is, if I'm successful as a teacher in this specific area that I'm teaching, if you feel less confident when you finish my course, I've succeeded. 0:13:48.7 AS: And I think that students freak out because of I'm here to be more confident Andrew, and what I'm exposing them to is that it's a constant... We're walking on quick sand. We're operating in a world where even in the world of finance, just observing the world of finance, observing market prices and stuff can influence actions that we're taking in the market... Can influence market prices. So the complexity level is so high. 0:14:27.1 JD: Yeah, yeah, one of the things that makes me think of is sort of a... I don't know if I'd call it paradox, but one of the early places that I went even prior to sort of coming across, Deming's work is the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching and they have it as their mission to bring the science of improvement to the education sector. And they have an annual Improvement Summit. The first time I went, I realized that they had this footer on all of their materials and it said, "Probably wrong, definitely incomplete." And that was a really great entry way into the science of improvement because that's the mentality you need when you start any type of improvement work, improvement project in your organization, and I sort of stole that idea and stuck it on all our materials. 0:15:27.8 JD: And I think the reaction from a lot of people first is similar to how you're describing the reaction of your students is that, wait a second, aren't you supposed to be an expert, don't you know what you're talking about? And I said, "No, that's not what this is about." This is about humbling yourself, realizing the complexity of the organizations that we're working in, and that at the outset of any improvement project, that there are gonna be things that you discover along the way that were completely unknown at the start, and so if you don't take that mindset and you rush in and you're sure of yourself, then you are set up for failure from the beginning, in my opinion. 0:16:09.7 AS: So if we go back to the title of this episode, Applying Deming's System of Profound Knowledge in Education, part of it is it starts to open you up beyond subject matter, and also it starts to help you understand that there's just a much more, a bigger world out there of influences that are driving us, and I think one of the things that's interesting about that is it... Young managers in the world of business are seeming to latch on to KPIs and feeling like it is a simple solution, we just define everybody's KPI, we nail them with it, we repeat it to them, we have them write it out in their goals and we measure it, and if they don't achieve it. Boom. And what Deming is teaching is just the opposite, that when you understand the system of profound knowledge, you understand that optimizing the output of any organization is a much more complex reality than just putting a KPI and a number on it. 0:17:18.8 JD: Yeah, I think of a colleague of a contemporary of Dr. Deming, who is still doing great work, Dr. Donald Wheeler said something to the effect of goal setting, KPI setting, goal setting is often an act of desperation, meaning like you don't know what else to do, so you set a goal, you don't have a method, you don't have a theory for how to improve, so you set this goal and then say something to the effect of, "I don't care how you get it done. Just get it done." Right, and then all hell breaks loose. And what do you think he's talking about is, if you don't understand the capability of your system, if you don't understand whatever area you're talking about, whatever area that KPI is in, if you don't understand how that data is varying over time, if you don't understand if there are just common causes, there are special causes in that data, you have no idea how to react nor do you know what your system was capable of the first place. 0:18:26.1 JD: That's sort of one of the sessions I led with leadership team here, and everybody kind of looks and says, Well, aren't we supposed to set goals? and there's really nothing wrong with setting goals in and of themselves, but we often set them in ways that are completely detached from reality, both in the magnitude of improvement that we're expecting and is a lack of understanding of how that same data has performed over time. 0:18:52.5 AS: Yeah, and it reminds me of Dr. Deming's statement of 'by what method?' 0:18:56.2 JD: By what method, yeah. 0:18:58.9 AS: So for, in wrapping up our discussion, I wanna go back and review some of what we've just talked about, so we're talking about applying the system of profound knowledge in education, and what you've talked about is the idea of coming into education, most people are very familiar with subject matter knowledge about classroom management and curriculum management and all that, but what was missing when you started your journey was this concept of Profound Knowledge, and once you started to understand it, it changed the way that you viewed the world, and then we just briefly talked about the idea, I wrote down something which was "probably wrong, definitely incomplete", and I would say that there are plenty of places where they think "definitely right. Probably complete." [laughter] 0:19:47.3 AS: And then you just mentioned the idea of setting goals, and I think Deming is not against goals, it's that goal is just one measure, I would say, if you set goals for individuals that incentivize them individually, you've created a big problem of competition, but most importantly, I think what you're saying is the idea of just setting a goal like, We wanna increase test scores by X or in my business, I want revenue growth to be up by 20% next year, the question really becomes by what method is there anything else that you would add to wrap up our discussion? 0:20:28.2 JD: Yeah, I think goals or quotas, especially if you're optimizing one part of the system, very likely to destroy the system as a whole, or at least sub-optimize it make it worse. I think Deming said something to the fact of quotas can be a fortress against improvement. Right. I think he was exactly right, because people start to do all kinds of weird things when you start to set quotas or goals, especially again, if they're incentivized as an individual, whether that's an individual worker or an individual department, things start to sort of happen in the opposite of what you wanted to happen when you do things like set goals, without that appreciation for the capability of the system in the first place, or an understanding of the data or an idea for how to improve, because it's like, well, if our goal... If we're gonna set a goal to increase test scores, let's say by 10% next year, why don't we do it this year? If we knew how to do that, what were we waiting on, why do we think we can do it next year, if we couldn't do it this year... 0:21:33.8 AS: Great points. Well, John, on behalf of everyone at the Deming Institute, I wanna thank you again for this discussion and for listeners, remember to go to Deming.org to continue your journey. This is your host Andrew Stotz, and I'll leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming; people are entitled to joy in work.

Dog Trainer

Sportsman's Spotlight

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 9, 2023

Member of our Sportsman's Spotlight team. Kelly Allen recently purchased a Griffon puppy from dog trainer Kyle Edmondson.

S3 Ep. 3 Kelly Allen

The Money Barrel

Play Episode Listen Later Feb 8, 2023 46:41

Kelly Allen might not be a name everyone knows already, but we fully believe you should. Kelly has trained countless winners and is giving her great horse Cinco her shot at the big time this year and we can't wait to cheer them on! We got the chance to record this podcast in person during the Denver Stock Show and talked about every topic - the highs and lows, the mental game, having a "real" job outside of rodeo, medications, you name it we talked about it. Kelly and Cinco just tied to win Rapid City this past weekend so be on the lookout for this duo to win big over the rest of the winter rodeos - hopefully on their way to their first NFR qualification!

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WVCBP Executive Director Kelly Allen On WV Budget Surplus

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Play Episode Listen Later Jan 18, 2023 17:23

WVCBP Executive Director Kelly Allen On WV Budget Surplus by The Watchdog

How to train a man with Kelly Allen ...#BarrelRacer changed me to be more country #couplestherapy

Blunt Force Discussion w/ Anthony Russo

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 31, 2022 77:55

In this episode of Blunt Force Discussion Anthony had the honor and pleasure to sit down with his girlfriend... AKA the backup since Jaco Booyens got pushed to next week. She's even more honored to be the back up of the back up. This episode is probably the first of many, and it is quite funny if I may say so myself.Kelly Allen is a professional Barrel Racer and Horse Trainer and the girlfriend of the host of #BFD, Anthony Russo. They talk about their journey to finding each other, and their belief that everything happens for a reason. They talk a bit about politics and belief systems. They also have a lot of playful banter explain the good, the bad and the ugly of their relationship. Kelly talks about her childhood in barrel racing, how she got into it, and if she would still be in the horse industry if she won this week's mega millions for a billion.She talks about who she thinks is currently the best barrel racer in the world between Hailey Kinsel and Jordan Briggs. We also talked about what she wants out of her life and the things she loves and also “dislikes” about me. We truly have a funny story on how we met and reconnected because of a baby on our lap and a love for #Fanniepacks. Anthony also gives a life lesson to always take a cell picture of a hotel room number if you have to go downstairs and take a #2. We get serious for a bit and talk about depression and that families need to remember how much love matters, and that kids are always watching. Some thoughts after the show -What did we learn at couples therapy today?Should I try couples therapy?What Couples Therapy is like?How to communicate in a relationship?How to get into barrel racing?How to overcome Depression?I hope you enjoy #bluntforcediscussion with a #barrelracer that knows how to be a #cowgirl and train a #cityboy. #relationshipgoals #funnycouple #fannypacks #patriots #politics #childhooddepression #couplestherapy #awakenotwoke #coupleIf you like our gear make sure you go to awakenotwokestore.com and use “awake” for 15% off. Thanks to the partners!Partnership with Ardis Labs… https://thedrardisshow.com/ Use: BFD at checkout for 10% off.Partnership with MONAT : For more information on their product line or becoming a market partner go to : BluntForce.mymonat.comand of course for My Patriot Supply go to PreparewithBTC.comPlease support this show as a patreon at patreon.com/bluntforcediscussionAny questions about our partnerships, becoming a Monat VIP partner or more, please feel free to reach out to bluntforcediscussion@gmail.com

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The in's and Out's of Being an Assistant Choreographer -- with Kelly Allen

Dance Careers: Unfiltered

Play Episode Listen Later Jul 5, 2022 33:13

Meet the positive light that is Kelly Allen. With over 16 years in LA and 30+ tv/film credits under her belt, Kelly brings her wisdom and experience to the DCU listeners. I LOVE that she dishes all the goods about being an assistant choreographer and a glimpse into how she got where she is now. She just finished filming Amazon's Marvelous Mrs. Maisel final season assisting Marguerite Derricks! Um, can you say baller?MNTR MGMTWebsite@mntr.mgmt@justinementer KELLY ALLENWebsite@kellallen_KELLY ALLEN is a working professional dancer and assistant choreographer on numerous projects for live shows, television & film. She has been instrumental to over 30+ TV/film series over the past 15 years. Kelly grew up & trained on the central coast of California at the prestigious Pat Jacksons American Dance, later known as American Dance of SLO. After moving to Los Angeles, she began performing for and assisting some of the dance industry's most influential choreographers. Kelly most recently worked on 5 seasons of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (Amazon) as a dancer & assistant choreographer to Marguerite Derricks, and assisted Jennifer Hamilton on both seasons of Physical (Apple TV). Other recent work includes Little America (Apple TV), Roar (Apple TV), and High Desert (Apple TV).A few of Kelly's dance credits include: Katy Perry's "Chained to the Rhythm" Music Video, TV/films:The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel (AMAZON), Lucifer (Netflix), Physical (Apple TV), Little America (Apple TV), The Affair (SHOWTIME), Superstore (NBC), Glee (FOX), Bunheads (ABC Family), Behind the Candelabra (HBO), The Disney Channel commercials, Frozen (Disney), Two Broke Girls (CBS), Jimmy Kimmel Live (ABC). Industrials: NIKE, Amway, Lexus, Samsung, Napa Auto. Live shows: PEARL (Lincoln Center & Int'l tour), Rose Parade, "The Who's Tommy" Musical with Tony Award winner Alice Ripley, artist Natasha Bedingfield, Celebrat10n (Walt Disney Concert Hall), Dance Camera West (Getty Museum) and “OPEN” (Ford Amphitheater & tour) for world renown choreographer Daniel Ezralow.Aside from performing, Kelly has had many wonderful choreography opportunities. Choreographing for Target's Spring Commercial Campaign & CSI: Crime Scene Investigation. Associate/Assistant Choreography Credits: G.L.O.W. (Netflix), Feature Film POMS (w/ Diane Keaton), Westworld (HBO), Katy Perry (59th Grammy Awards, Wango Tango), Critics Choice Awards, Criminal Minds (CBS), Scorpion (CBS), Heathers the Musical (New World Stages/NYC), film Starving In Suburbia (Lifetime), Barbie Live! Musical (Int'l Tour), The Sing-Off (NBC), So You Think You Can Dance (FOX), Skating with the Stars (ABC), Primetime Emmy Awards, Billie Holiday Hologram Show (Apollo Theater). Dance Assistant for films: Behind the Candelabra, No Strings Attached, The Campaign; And for celebrities such as Sutton Foster, Kate Hudson, Paula Abdul, David Hasselhoff, Smokey Robinson and Nicole Sherzinger. Kelly was also the Asssistant Choreographer to Jennifer Hamilton for NBC's Superbowl Promo, with celebrities such as Kristen Wigg, Amy Poehler, and Tina Fey.Kelly continues to push herself to new heights, and broaden her career as an International artist & performer!

Movin' Up: A Guide to Promotions & Growth Within A Company, Featuring: Olivia Guerriero & Kelly Allen

DAYDREAMERS: The Official SNR Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later Apr 27, 2022 33:30

On episode four, we are talking all about promotions and how to grow within a company featuring two special guests. The first is Olivia Guerriero, who graduated Marist in 2018 with a degree in Fashion Merchandising. During her time at Marist she held internships at Ralph Lauren, Club Monaco and Tory Burch, and was the first Social Media Director for the Marist Fashion Program and Silver Needle Runway. Today, Olivia is celebrating almost 4 years on the Digital Team at Louis Vuitton, where she quickly grew from Merchandising Assistant, to Coordinator and now Specialist. The second guest is Kelly Allen, who is the Social Media and Website Director of SNR36. Kelly majors in Fashion Merchandising with a concentration in promotion and double minor in Graphic Design and Product Development. Host, Julia Mazzella, and her guests shared a great conversation filled with incredible career stories, accomplishments, and our favorite piece of advice: growth is important but it's even more important to grow at your own pace. We promise you'll be one step closer to achieving your daydream! ☁️

39:MISSING: Kimberly Tatum Nicole Gray & Kelly Allen

Dewdropper Bearcat

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 3, 2022 13:05

Three out of thousands of females that go missing each year. These three women are located in the St. Louis area that have received a little to no coverage. Sources: https://charleyproject.org/case/kimberly-t-tatum https://www.doenetwork.org/cases/3741dfmo.html https://youtu.be/lAkquT6pAl0 https://charleyproject.org/case/nicole-gray https://charleyproject.org/case/kelly-l-allen https://fox2now.com/news/family-of-missing-berkeley-woman-not-giving-up-10-years-after-disappearance/amp/

missing kelly allen

What is happening with Medicaid in West Virginia?

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Play Episode Listen Later Feb 21, 2022 22:00

CHARLESTON, WV (WOWK) — On this week's episode of Inside West Virginia Politics, co-hosts Mark Curtis and Amanda Barren sit down with a variety of people to talk about a racist email sent to a black delegate in West Virginia, Medicaid, north-central West Virginia, and Gold Star Mothers. In Segment One, Mark Curtis interviews Del. Danielle Walker (D-Monongalia) who recently filed a civil lawsuit against the pro-life group West Virginians For Life after she received a message from the group with a photo of a KKK klansman. Kelly Allen, Executive Director of the West Virginia Center on Budget and Policy, talks to Mark Curtis about what is happening with Medicaid in the Mountain State. Patsy Trecost II, Harrison County Commissioner, calls in to talk to Mark Curtis about why north-central West Virginia is seeing a boom in economic development. We end this week's episode of Inside West Virginia Politics with Amanda Barren talking to Gold Star Mothers and what their organization's goals are.

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What West Virginians need from Biden's social spending plan

On Point

Play Episode Listen Later Jan 5, 2022 47:15

Senator Joe Manchin torpedoed the Biden administration's social spending plan, for now. But West Virginians want answers. We learn what West Virginians need, and what their senator is willing to support. Kelly Allen and Josh Sword join Meghna Chakrabarti.

The CMO Suite - Kelly Allen, CMO, Empath Health

The CMO Suite Hosted By Sean Halter

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 28, 2021 26:47

Join Sean Halter, CEO of Connectivity Holdings, as he interviews Empath Health's CMO, Kelly Allen, on this episode of The CMO Suite.

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Family Talk: Kelly Allen - Caregiver burnout, difficult conversations and saying goodbye.

Desperately Seeking Senior Living

Play Episode Listen Later Dec 27, 2021 34:27

Knowing your loved one's wishes is one thing...watching them decline and wrestling with the realization that you may not be able to grant those wishes... is another. Today, Kelly shares her family's story of watching her grandparents decline, having that difficult conversation when they could no longer stay home and saying goodbye. CLICK HERE for our DOABLE DOWNLOAD with FULL SHOW NOTES

caregivers difficult conversations saying goodbye family talk caregiverburnout kelly allen

Talk of the Town | August 30, 2021

The Talk of the Town

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 30, 2021 40:23

Dave has an update on the anticipated rain and storms headed our direction from Ida. Kelly Allen, with the WV Center on Budget & Policy, previews an event in Morgantown talking about paid family leave. Brad McElhinny stops by.

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Shawnee Sports Complex, COVID-19, Paid Family Leave, and WV State Fair on this week's Inside West Virginia Politics

Play Episode Listen Later Aug 9, 2021 21:53

The Shawnee Sports Complex estimated to bring more than $100M after first 4 yearsIn Segment 1, Ben Salango (D), Kanawha County Commissioner, discusses his contributions around the county, including his involvement in the Shawnee Sports Complex. Salango says the sports complex will bring in more than $100 million in its first four years — money he says is going back to employees, businesses and workers throughout the valley, not just the county.Salango has also announced his candidacy for the Kanawha County Commission in 2022.Revamping COVID-19 testing and vaccination efforts in West VirginiaIn Segment 2, Dr. Sherri Young from the Kanawha-Charleston Health Department discusses ramping up COVID-19 testing and vaccinations as the latest COVID-19 spike spreads statewide in West Virginia. She discusses the Delta variant and the concerns with the spread as the first day of school is on Monday, Aug. 9. The Delta variant can spread quickly, is more aggressive and affect kids more.The importance of Paid Family and Medical Leave in West VirginiaIn Segment 3, Kelly Allen, the Executive Direct of the West Virginia Center on Budget and Policy, talks about the importance of Paid Family and Medical Leave is being considered in Congress.According to Allen, 1 in 5 people have paid medical leave with a higher-paying job. With lower-wage workers, 1 in 20 people have paid medical leave.The West Virginia State Fair returns this AugustIn Segment 4, Kent Leonhardt, the West Virginia Commissioner of Agriculture, discusses the 96th annual West Virginia State Fair.Leonhardt says masks are not required for patrons, but vendors who are inside will be wearing masks. “You can see the smiles on people's faces,” said Leonhardt.The West Virginia State Fair will take place from Aug. 12th-21st.Officials at the State Fair of West Virginia are happy to announce the concert series for the 96th annual event set for August 12-21, 2021, featuring Nelly (8/12), Whiskey Myers with special guest the Steel Woods (8/13), for KING & COUNTRY with special guest Rebecca St. James (8/14), STYX (8/15), Tracy Lawrence and Tracy Byrd (8/19), Brantley Gilbert (8/20), and the Buckin'B Bull Ride (8/21).Mac Powell & The Family Reunion and Shenandoah will play as free shows on August 16 and 17, respectively.ArtistDate of PerformanceNELLYAug. 8thWhiskey Myers with special guest the Steel WoodsAug. 13thKING & COUNTRY with special guest Rebecca St. JamesAug. 14thSTYXAug. 15thTracy Lawrence and Tracy ByrdAug. 19thBrantley GilbertAug. 20thYou can buy tickets for the fair by following this link.

Amy Hutchinson And Kelly Allen Discuss Paid Family And Medical Leave 07 - 13 - 21

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Play Episode Listen Later Jul 22, 2021 17:11

Amy Hutchinson And Kelly Allen Discuss Paid Family And Medical Leave 07 - 13 - 21 by The Watchdog

The College Radio Experience

Looking Glass Podcast

Play Episode Listen Later May 15, 2021 27:22

College radio alumni Nick Jakusz, Kelly Allen, and Kevin Kellam share their experiences of what it was like working in college radio in the early 2000s, and answer the question 'Why does college radio matter?'

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Book-Binder Kelly Allen-Kujawski

Kaupapa Podcasts

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 17, 2021 30:00

In this episode, Maggie interviews Kelly Allen-Kujawski. Kelly is a book binder, collector, restorer based in Rhode Island.

rhode island binder kelly allen

Kelly Allen,WV Center On Budget And Policy On Gover Tax Plan 03 05 21

budget policy watchdog tax plan gover kelly allen

Play Episode Listen Later Mar 13, 2021 20:23

Kelly Allen,WV Center On Budget And Policy On Gover Tax Plan 03 05 21 by The Watchdog

Kelly Allen, ED Of WVCBP, On Legislative Session 02 16 21