Podcasts about Westminster Seminary

We welcome Rev. Chuck Tedrick to our pulpit this morning. He is the Dean of Students and Director of Alumni Relations at Westminster Seminary in California.IntroductionChrist tells a parable about one of the world's worst prayers, immediately followed by one of the world's most beautiful prayers. The warning is that some trusted in themselves, believing they were righteous, and treated others with contempt.Two men from the same covenant community go to the same temple service. Both stand to pray. Both address God. Yet everything else about their prayers reveals two completely different kinds of people. There is one group that looks to God's grace in Christ alone for salvation. Another group who looks to themself. One represents the humble; the other, the prideful. Christ presents two characters to represent these positions. We would expect the Pharisee to be praised by Christ. We would expect the tax collector to be condemned. However, we see that Christ does the opposite. Why does Christ condemn the hero while exalting the expected villain? The Prideful PrayerThe Pharisee enters the temple with impressive religious credentials. In his day, Pharisees were the most pious, conservative, and scrupulous religious leaders. They took God's law seriously. Tragically, they valued the law, but not the law's giver. His heart is far from God and the Lord's grace. Standing by himself, he prays: "God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get." This is impressive and intimidating. Notice what is missing. He thanks God for nothing. He is not thankful for the Lord's grace that has moved him past previous sins. He does not see God as the giver of his daily provision. He does not see that he needs the Lord's grace and mercy to stand strong. He compares himself to others and finds himself superior. He lists sins he has avoided (theft, adultery, injustice) and works he has exceeded (fasting beyond requirement, giving above the tithe).Notice that he never mentions his own sins: coveting, gossip, envy, impatience, or the self-righteousness and contempt pouring from his heart. He has not loved God with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength, nor has he loved his neighbor as himself. The tragedy is not that he hasn't traveled far enough down the road of good works, but that he is on the wrong road entirely. He travels the "law road" when he needs the "faith road." He tries to justify himself through works when Scripture declares that "by works of the law no one will be justified." He trusts in himself rather than in God's promise.The Humble PrayerThe tax collector represents the opposite extreme of Jewish society. Tax collectors were despised as traitors and thieves. They compromised their Jewish purity by collaborating with Rome. In fact, they extorted money from their own people. His posture is different from that of the previous man. He stands "far off," unable to lift his eyes to heaven, beating his breast in grief. His prayer is devastatingly simple: "God, be merciful to me, a sinner." He knows he needs the Lord's mercy and grace. He knows that he cannot stand on his own. He compares himself to God and finds himself wanting. He recognizes he has nothing to offer. He does not have a righteousness that exceeds that of the scribes and the Pharisees. All he asks for is mercy. He does not have a resume that proves his worthiness. No, he is confronted by the reality that he is a desperate sinner on thin ice. The word he uses for "mercy" is propitiation. This is a traditional word that refers to the turning away of God's wrath through sacrifice. On the Day of Atonement, the high priest would confess sins over a scapegoat sent into the wilderness and sprinkle blood on the mercy seat. This tax collector understands what the Pharisee misses: the wages of sin are death, and we need a substitute.Jesus is that substitute. He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. On the cross, He became the propitiation for our sins, enduring the wrath we deserved, and dying in our place. Christ gives the assurance that the tax collector goes home justified. He sees that his redemption and righteousness are outside himself, and he looks to the mercy of God found in Christ.Christ's VerdictJesus delivers a shocking verdict: "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other."Jesus does not prescribe penance for this man to complete. No "try harder and check back later." The tax collector goes home forgiven, declared righteous, at peace with God. The Pharisee goes home still an enemy of the Lord.Jesus concludes with a kingdom principle that reverses worldly wisdom: "Everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." This is so contrary to the world's order. In the world's economy, self-promotion leads to success. In God's economy, humility leads to exaltation. Justification is a matter of God's mercy, not human merit.Luke immediately gives us proof in the very next chapter. Zacchaeus, a chief tax collector, climbs a tree to see Jesus because he has heard that this Teacher declares even tax collectors forgiven. When Jesus announces, "Today salvation has come to this house," the crowd grumbles: "He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner." But Jesus responds: "The Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost."ConclusionThis parable serves as both comfort and warning. For those who come to God saying, "Be merciful to me, a sinner," there is immediate justification, peace with God, and the gift of righteousness through faith in Christ alone. For those trusting in their own goodness, religious activity, or moral superiority, there remains judgment. Paul tells us to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. This is a call to examine your own heart. Do you compare yourself to others so that you are thankful you are not "like that person"? Or are you comparing yourself to God's holy standard and finding yourself desperate for grace?Repent and believe. Come to the cross empty-handed, clinging only to Christ. For everyone who humbles himself will be exalted, and everyone who exalts himself will be humbled. The tax collector went home justified. Find your identity and life in Christ rather than yourself.

Who was John Murray, and why does his little book Redemption Accomplished and Applied continue to shape Reformed theology more than half a century after its publication? In this introductory episode, Nate Shannon is joined by Dr. Stafford Carson and Paul Woo to discuss Murray's life, legacy, and distinctive approach to theology. Before diving into the book itself, they explore the man whose careful exegesis, profound humility, and devotion to Christ left a lasting mark on Westminster Seminary and the wider church. If you enjoy this episode, you can access tons of content just like this at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wm.wts.edu⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. If you would like to join us in our mission to train specialists in the bible to proclaim the whole counsel of God for Christ and his global church, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wts.edu/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Thanks for listening!

In this powerful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Matthew 21:33-46, examining Jesus's parable of the wicked tenants. The hosts unpack how Christ masterfully draws the Pharisees into pronouncing their own condemnation, revealing not merely theological error but intentional usurpation of God's authority. Through careful exegesis, they explore the shocking setup of the parable—where the landowner does all the work while the tenants contribute nothing—and how this mirrors God's sovereign initiative in salvation. The discussion touches on confession, the value of full-time ministry, and the scandal of rejecting the Messiah despite recognizing His authority. This episode challenges listeners to examine whether they, like the Pharisees, attempt to claim God's work as their own. Key Takeaways God Does All the Verbs: The parable emphasizes that the landowner planted, built, protected, and prepared everything—the tenants contributed nothing yet claimed ownership of the fruit. Self-Pronounced Condemnation: Jesus draws the Pharisees into declaring their own judgment, demonstrating that even the unregenerate conscience bears witness to divine justice (Romans 2). Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error: The Pharisees weren't well-intentioned but misguided; they recognized Christ's authority as the heir and deliberately murdered Him to seize His inheritance. The Scandal of Grace: The parable's shocking element is that the landowner prepared everything before leasing the land—far exceeding normal agricultural arrangements and illustrating God's unmerited favor. Ecclesial Support for Ministry: The OPC presbytery's decision to fund a full-time call demonstrates how church structure can honor the ministry of Word and sacrament by freeing ministers from worldly distractions. Particular Repentance Matters: Westminster Confession 15.5 teaches that believers should not content themselves with general repentance but "endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly." The Stone Rejected Becomes Chief: Christ's citation of Psalm 118 reveals that the very rejection by the builders (religious leaders) was God's plan to establish the cornerstone of salvation. Key Concepts God Does All the Verbs The concentration of action verbs attributed solely to the landowner in Matthew 21:33 is theologically significant. The landowner plants, builds, digs, and rents—creating a fully functional, productive vineyard before the tenants ever arrive. This arrangement differs radically from typical first-century agricultural practices, where tenants would lease raw land and develop it themselves, sharing profits with the landowner. Jesus deliberately presents an extraordinary scenario where the tenants receive everything prepared and ready, requiring only stewardship of what already exists. This parallels God's sovereign initiative in election and salvation: believers contribute nothing to their standing before God, receiving instead a fully accomplished redemption. The Pharisees' rebellion wasn't against burdensome requirements but against simply acknowledging God's rightful ownership of what He alone created. Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error The hosts challenge the common sympathetic reading of the Pharisees as well-intentioned legalists who simply got sidetracked. Instead, verse 38 reveals the tenants explicitly recognize the son as heir and plot to murder him to "seize his inheritance." This isn't accidental rejection but calculated rebellion. The Pharisees weren't confused about Jesus's identity or authority—they understood precisely who He claimed to be and deliberately chose to destroy Him rather than submit. This interpretation carries significant weight for understanding the nature of unbelief: it's not primarily intellectual confusion but volitional rebellion. The religious leaders didn't need more evidence or clearer teaching; they needed transformed hearts. This same dynamic appears whenever humans recognize divine truth yet choose self-sovereignty over submission to God's rightful claim on their lives. The Scandal of Grace The parable begins with a scandalous premise that would have startled Jesus's original audience. Unlike normal tenant farming arrangements where landowners simply provided land in exchange for a share of whatever the tenants produced through their own labor, this landowner invests everything. He doesn't just own the property—he plants the vineyard, constructs the protective wall, digs the wine press for production, and builds the watchtower for defense. The tenants receive a turnkey operation requiring minimal effort. This extravagant preparation mirrors God's unmerited favor toward Israel and, by extension, the church. God didn't merely create humanity and wait to see what we would produce; He established covenants, sent prophets, preserved His Word, and ultimately sent His Son—all before requiring any response. The only "payment" demanded is acknowledging His ownership of what He created. The parable thus exposes the absurdity and ingratitude of claiming God's work as our own achievement. Memorable Quotes God does all the verbs. All of the verbs are done by the landowner. There is nothing expected of these tenants—they really add nothing to the landowner's land. Christ is not painting the Pharisees as well-intentioned but ultimately wrong. He's painting them as usurpers who recognize the proper authority and rather than submitting to it, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly. (Westminster Confession 15.5) Transcript Welcome to episode 491 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:17] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:01:18] Parable of Tenants [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picture this, Tony, your landlord. You've built the perfect vineyard. We're talking wall watchtower, wine, press, the works like what everybody says. Everybody knows you need all those things. You've got it all set up, and then you hand the keys to some tenants. You take a long trip, you go enjoy yourself. And when the harvest rolls around, you send your servants to collect the rent. And shockingly, your tenants, they beat. Stone. Another, the kill a third. So naturally you think, you know what? I'll fix this. Lemme just send more people. That's obviously the problem. There's some kind of just profound misunderstanding about what's going on here and about our relationship in this business. And then when that doesn't work, you send your son now loved ones. If this were a business strategy, we would already be calling hr. But of course it's not a business strategy, it's a parable. And Jesus is telling it to the very people about to prove the parable true. So welcome back to the Reformed Brotherhood because we're in Matthew Chapter 21 and we're gonna be actually getting all the way into the parable of the Vine growers where the patience of God looks, I would say, to almost anybody else, to humanize at least almost reckless until you realize that's exactly the point. So yeah, grab your beverage of choice, grab your Bible, pull the car over, will you? Because this is gonna get real and we're going to reason together. But before we do all of that, let's do a little affirming with or denying against, what do you got?  [00:02:41] Inside Baseball Affirmation [00:02:41] Tony Arsenal: So this is a sort of inside baseball, uh, affirmation. Um, I'm not sharing anything, although it may feel like I'm sharing something that is private and like, uh, like confidential. It's not No, this is good. Um, so I had the opportunity to visit. Um, my presbytery, um, for those who are listeners of the show or people who like, have been with us a long time, um, I was part of a Baptist church. Uh, I've always kind of been a Presbyterian at heart, but, um, our church closed, uh, a little over a year and a half ago now. And, um, uh, I've joined an OPC congregation in membership now. We've been members there for about a year. And, um, so I've been visiting Presbytery, which is the, the meeting of all of the leadership of all of the churches. So we won't do a polity breakdown here, but basically like, it's, it's the regional meeting. It's the regional business meeting or church meeting for a group of churches in the OPC, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And so a lot of the meetings, you know, have the normal kind of business type stuff. You have reports from different committee committees and stuff. Um.  [00:03:48] Presbytery Call Debate [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Where this is affirmation is coming in here is at this most recent presbytery meeting, um, was pretty heavy on, um, licensing or, or, uh, not licensing on approving men who had received a call to formal ministry within the presbytery. And so in the OPC, and I would imagine that other Presbyterian bodies are not like super different, although I'm sure there's some variation in the OPC. Um, when a church intends to extend a call to a pastor, to a teaching elder, um, to a minister, they must have the call, which is. Is both theological but is also eminently practical. Like the call is a physical piece of paper that details, you know, what the pay is, how much vacation time. So it's kind of a combination between like a theological call and also a contract. Um, the presbytery has to approve that call. And so at this most recent one, there was a couple calls that were more or less uncontroversial. There was no question about them, and they were approved pretty quickly. But there was one call, um, one call to ministry that took, I, I, I didn't time it, but it was probably like four or five hours of debate and discussion in various fashion in order to get to a point where the presbytery could approve the call. So this was a call to a minister who is being called part-time, which is unusual in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, the OPC uh, acknowledges the fact that bivocational tent making ministry is sometimes a necessity, but really views the ministry of the word in sacrament as something that should not have. Distractions. And actually our book of church order talks about, doesn't use the word distraction, I think, but it talks about a, a properly ordered call to a full-time minister includes phrasing that the congregation promises to compensate them in a way that allows them to be free of worldly burdens and cares. And I might have not, not have gotten that wording exactly right. But that's the idea. And so this call was. Explicitly, um, not a full-time call it, they actually took the language out of promising to pay him in a way that he's able to ignore or to not be distracted by worldly care. And that was intentional, but there was a lot of question in discussion at presbytery level about the fact that the call did not include the phrase or the wording of part-time or bivocational. So the conversation started out of like, can this call be modified to include that? So it's explicitly known in this man's call that his calling is part-time, which is both theological, to make sure that the call is properly formatted, but also like very practical that the congregation should acknowledge explicitly that they recognize that this person is not, not going to be putting, you know, 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week towards this position. [00:06:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:06:34] Tony Arsenal: Um. What I'm affirming is where it got to, right? So there was lots of discussion about that. There was some finagling about the retirement package. The OPC recommends that a, a minister be given a retirement contribution of no less than 5% a year of his salaried package. Um, which there's a couple line items that go into that, but 5%, and this was a little bit less than that. And this is what I'm affirming and this, I, I don't know that this is a super widespread thing that would happen all across the, um, the OPC, but it happened in the presbytery of New York and New England this past week, and it's just amazing. And I just, I just want to lay it out there and then I want to hear your reaction. [00:07:13] Funding Full Time Ministry [00:07:13] Tony Arsenal: And I, I wanna hear your reaction as the son of a minister who labored his entire adult, more or less, his entire adult career in ministry, working two or three additional jobs on top of his ministry, the presbytery decided. That because it did not like the idea of a part-time minister. They didn't think that was appropriate. They didn't think that that was good or that that was really the right goal. The presbytery allocated, I'm not gonna say the figures 'cause they're not super germane, but allocated a significant amount of money to be dis to be dispersed to the church for the next three years in order to take what was a part-time call and enable it to become a full-time call. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: Wow.  [00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: And so there are a lot of, there are a lot of church bodies that would say, yeah, we don't love the idea of bi-vocational ministry. You know, we really think it's ideal that a minister could be full-time. Um, they may even put some, some theological freight behind that. Um, I have never encountered a body, um. That was willing to put a sizable amount of money towards essentially supplementing a part-time call to make it full-time. Um, this was just amazing to me, and the candidate was there. I didn't get a chance to talk to him, but I would love to talk to him about what he felt. I, I can just imagine the phone call to his wife who was not, not at presbytery, but to his wife, following the outcome of this to be like, you are never gonna believe what just happened. Right? This is a family who was intending to move across country. Right. He's currently a student at Westminster, California in seminary, uh, California, Westminster Seminary in California, finishing his M Div. They're planning a cross country move into a part-time position where she's probably gonna have to find a job, and then also he's gonna have to find a part-time job. He had the ability to call her on the break and be like, you're never gonna guess what just happened? You're never gonna,  [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: it's wild.  [00:09:09] Tony Arsenal: Uh, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional here. You're never going to. Believe how faithful God is in this. Right. So I'm interested to hear your reaction to that as the son of a, of a try and quad at times Quad vocational. Yeah,  [00:09:23] Jesse Schwamb: for sure.  [00:09:23] Tony Arsenal: Minister who labored his entire, more or less, his entire adult career, um, working full-time in a call as a part-time, part-time minister. You know, like that's a, that's a crazy situation. So I'm just affirming that again, I don't know how common that kind of thing is in the OPC. I don't wanna make it seem like that's the norm. Um, I actually get the sense that this is probably not the norm, but it was amazing to see and it made me in intensely like. Proud in the right way of being a part of this broader body that would, would so emphasize and so value the ministry of the word and the sacrament, and the importance of a man being able to dedicate himself to that without distraction. That they would put forward this amount of money and this kind of money. They had no reason to do so. And there's no real direct benefit to the presbytery for doing this. I mean, there's an indirect benefit of like not having a church with a part-time minister, but like there's no direct benefit to this. There's no direct return on investments that's gonna come out of this. Um, it was pretty amazing to see. It was, it was, it was super encouraging.  [00:10:28] Jesse Schwamb: That is really encouraging. I, I think it's, there's no doubt that for the called pastor, their heart is in the ministry of the word. That's what they want to be doing. They wanna be doing it all the time and as much time as they possibly can, and they wanna be able to have all of their intentional focus on it. So I. I'm excited for that guy. I mean, that's just an incredible blessing to go in hoping for funding, essentially for a part-time role and to basically be told, no, no, no, no, that's, that's not enough. We want you to be committed to this fully as we know your heart is committed. As we validated that call.  [00:11:00] Why Structure Matters [00:11:00] Jesse Schwamb: I do love being a part of churches, well, lemme say it this way. There is, I think, a benefit of being part of congregations that have like a wide resource network that has like appropriate hierarchy and structure and that can be one of them. I've seen something similar in the Christian Missionary Alliance, which is the church that I'm in, not exactly the same, but I've seen some surprising allocations of resources where they basically said, you know, this is important. Like, it even trumps we're, we're gonna. Allocate or resource something so that this can move forward because it is important in a way that was like better than the person who was bringing it before them could have hoped for. Yeah. And uh, suddenly it's as if everything aligned. And it was really in part because there was this structure to come alongside, to validate as you're saying, and then to authenticate and then again to resource assets that could be used. There's, there's something to be said for that interdependency where there is kind of this hierarchical structure in which all that's happening at a level where things are codified. And again, like there's a structure and a way in which we move through those decisions to make sure that they suit the objective of the entire movement. So I guess there's nothing I'll say, but that's a beautiful thing, isn't it?  [00:12:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:12:15] Generosity in Action [00:12:15] Tony Arsenal: It was, it was, it was cool because it was like this, it was like this real. Actualization of the principle of outdoing one another and showing honor. Yeah, sure. Because you know, like the initial debate was like, Hey, you know, I'm not sure we can approve this call because the, the OPCs guidelines tell us not to approve a call that has less than 5% of the retirement benefit. And there was a lot of discussion of like, well, the presbytery can't modify the call, but we don't wanna delay this guy coming in and like, we don't wanna delay his ordination, his installation. And so the initial proposal was a, a. What feels like a large amount of money to me. But after I understood more about the, the budget of what's going on in, in the presbytery was actually a very small amount of money. Started with a very tiny, very modest proposal of basically like supplementing the retirement fund to make sure that like we could, they, I say we, like, I was part of this, I was just observing, but to supplement the retirement fund in a way that allowed the church to still proceed with the call as written, but still also make sure that this person had the appropriate retirement fund. And then that just basically was like, there would be some instruction given to the church that like, you've gotta bump this up in the next budget cycle. Like you've gotta get to the 5%. That's, that's the expectation. It went from that. And like I said, I won't give you the specific numbers, but one of the presbyters and I, I'm, I, um, I, I've known this presbyter from a distance for quite a long time and, and I have an immense amount of respect for him. He stood up and he's like, well, if we're gonna give X, why don't we just give 10 times X instead? And then actually, like the discussion was like, well, is, are we sure that 10 times X is even the right amount? Why don't we have this particular group meet over the lunch break and figure out whether that's the right number and then come back after lunch and we'll vote on it. And then they came back after lunch and it was actually a number that was even greater than 10 times X. So it was like this exercise in like. This very small proposal that was still imminently generous, right? The presbytery has no obligation to do this. There's no obligation from any of the presbyters to stand up and say like, we should. We should supplement this fund. They would've been well within their right, and no one would've looked, I think. I think some people would've been frustrated by it, but I don't think anyone would've looked sideways at it or thought it was sinful. If the presbytery just said like, we can't approve this call. You guys are gonna have to come back with it and we'll vote on it at the next presbytery. Like that would've been problematic. This, this kind of poor guy who's coming outta seminary, his call and his beginning of employment would've been delayed, but like. That would've been good and orderly, but instead they were like, one, we don't want this pulpit to stay empty longer. We don't wanna disadvantage this guy who's just getting done with seminary. We want him to get started. We don't wanna discourage him. So here's a small proposal, a very modest amount of money that we can put forward for this purpose. And then it was like, let's just keep seeing how much closer to a real full-time call we can get. And they finally came back and said like, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this in a wise fashion. They structured it. So like the first year he gets more, the second year he gets a little bit less. The third year the church gets a little bit less with the idea that like each year the church should be adjusting their budget to compensate and get this guy to that with the, the hope that like with a full-time minister, they're able to grow their congregation to the point where they can support a full-time minister. So it was just this really cool, super encouraging exercise. And what I loved about it is the only real debate that was going on was about do we need to do more? There was no one being like, wait a second, why are we, why are we putting more money to this? The whole thing was like, is this actually enough to accomplish what we think God wants to do with this person's call? Because if, if God is truly calling this man to this, this particular church, and we believe that he is. Then what do we as a, as a people of God need to do to enable that call to look like what we actually believe calls to ministry are supposed to look like, which is a full-time call to ministry that is undistracted by the cares of the world. What do we need to do? The answer in this case was like, I think we need to put a sizable amount of money to it. Um, it's a, I mean, and again. I'm not gonna say it on the air. It was not a small chunk of change. Um, it was, it was a, it was a large amount of money that was devoted to this cause and that just goes to show how much this body values the importance of a full-time minister of the word, so. [00:16:50] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:16:51] OPC Love and Recommendation [00:16:51] Tony Arsenal: That's enough about that. I, I could gush about how proud I am to be a part of this body and how encouraged I am and how amazing it was and how awesome this, this guy, how, how much this guy must be thanking God for the providence and like, this is the last thing. I'll say this, this young man younger than me, I think he's graduating seminary. I saw him across the room. He looks like he's probably in his mid twenties, right? Young guy. He's got a wife doesn't have kids yet coming into this ministry, not only is he coming into this ministry, but as a Presbyterian minister, when he's installed as the minister of this church. He will be joining this body of presbyters as the, as his brothers like. He is not a member of the local church. He's a member of the presbytery, which is the regional church. So now he's coming into this fully supported by his brothers in the presbytery that he saw go to the mat to make sure he was properly taken care of, that the congregation was not unintentionally taking advantage of his labor, but also that he knows that all of these men are willing to do what they need to do to make sure that his ministry is successful and edifies the church like that is. Uh, I don't want to gush on Presbyterianism too much, but like that is Presbyterianism at peak form, right? This is the body of elders making sure that every church in the region, even the ones they're not directly ministering in, has what it needs to succeed and to honor God and to do what needs to happen. So I'm affirming the presbytery of New York and New England and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, I have been so blessed by knowing many of these presbyters. I've been so blessed by being a part of the congregation that I am. There are lots of really great churches and really great denominations out there. If you are looking for a church and there is an OPC congregation in your area, absolutely go check it out. I know it feels stuffy sometimes, and I will admit, like sometimes it feels a little bit overly traditional in terms of like just the vibe of the congregation,  [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:18:52] Tony Arsenal: But press past that because I don't think, I don't think you will find, um. You may find lots of congregations that are as faithful. I don't think you're gonna find many that are more faithful than your average OPC congregation. So I could be wrong. I just, I just love the OPC. I just really, really love it. So that's my affirmation. What do you got for us, Jesse?  [00:19:18] Denial Catholic Confession Math [00:19:18] Jesse Schwamb: I think I got denial, which is maybe a little bit unusual for me. [00:19:21] Tony Arsenal: As long as you're not denying the OPCI think we're fine.  [00:19:23] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's, it's not, it is church related and I, I'll try to keep it short 'cause I think I can make this way longer than it, it probably should be, but lemme think how to phrase this. So, I don't know with a devil negative, I guess when I'm a denying against is maybe not enough confession by your own standard. So the, I'm gonna try to make this so brief. I, I just happened to be out with my wife this afternoon and we had to run errands. We got stuck in traffic and this gave me longer than usual to sit in front of our. Very local and very large Catholic church. So I happen to be looking at their sign. It's a very large congregation. I've been actually been in this one on a couple of occasions for funerals. So not only do I know its size and scope, but again, if you get, if you get on this road at the wrong time on the Lord's day, you're gonna be stuck for a long time because there are so many people that attend. I say that because I noticed on the sign that there were three times for mass on the Lord's Day. So that also says something about the number of people coming through. And then on the sign though, underneath it said for confessions, go to our website. Mm-hmm. So I was like, man, I gotta lick this up because I can't tell if they're telling me I can confess on the website or if it's go to the website for the times. And I said to my wife, only half jokingly, if I can confess online, I'm gonna confess something. So I went to, I went to the website and, and sure enough it was almost disappointingly. It was just the times.  [00:20:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:46] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what I've found interesting, which just launched me into this like deep rabbit hole. There were three times for confession. Two of those times were just a half an hour, and the third time was an hour. So, uh, what I did was I went through, actually, I think what they had on there was, was three full hours a week. It was a little bit confusing, but I think it was three full hours. Now I think about it. So I went back, I just couldn't help myself, Tony. So I started to think, alright, let's say. I think it's fair to assume  [00:21:15] Tony Arsenal: math, Jesse is kicking in right now. Yes. You're gonna calculate how many minutes per, per person is what you're doing. I'm thinking, ah,  [00:21:22] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, it's something like that. So what I thought was, I don't think it's, uh, I was gonna be conservative. I wanna be fair. I wanna be fair. So, and now we should say like, I think most people realize that the Catholic understanding of confession and the Protestant one is, is very different. The Catholic sacrament of confession is the right through which Catholics are gonna confess their sins to a priest receive absolution, and it's gonna restore the relationship with God in the church. And, and they're gonna believe that the priest acts as a person of Christ and is bound by the seal of confession and an absolute kind of obligation. Uh, of course never to reveal what was disclosed during that process. So, by the way, the website that I went to, lovely instructions. I mean, I was like, wow. I was reading it to my wife who was, uh, not familiar with this at all, and she was like, they can make you do stuff. And I was like, well, yeah. I mean, obviously like there's, there's a portion of this where there's contrition or penant penance. It could be a prayer, it could be act of charity, like all kinds of stuff. So I went back and I thought. I don't think it's unreasonable that there's 350 persons that would say, let's say an average, uh, that would wanna take part of confession. Now, let's say that they did that at, at least monthly, just once a month. And, and I don't know how people's conviction is on that, but I'm gonna say conservatively once a month. Let's say that, and I don't think this is unreasonable, Tony, but you tell me. Let's say you're, you're trucking, you're moving through confession. Let's say it's five minutes a piece. So we're up to 1,750 minutes, uh, per month. That's the demand on the priest because I was, I was looking at this time and I was thinking something is strange here to me, so. That was the demand then, and I'll spare you the other math, which could be very long and un uninteresting. I'm coming up with, you'd need 2.24, two and a quarter priests, which of course you can't have a quarter priests or a quarter person for any reason. So you'd hire, you'd hire three priests, which satisfy the demand if, and the major assumptions here, that is like everybody can't show up at the same time. Obviously, I'm assuming that like everybody has their own time, they're spreading it out. So everybody gets the confession, but it's just five minutes. And I, I have no idea. I mean, if you're a Luther, that's certainly not sufficient time.  [00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:23:20] Jesse Schwamb: And you would need three priests. Now here's the thing that I just kind of backed into that, besides like three being like, okay, that, that's, you would need three priests just to satisfy this congregation. If they're confessing for five minutes, once per month. Uh, by the way, if you said, well, half the congregation is going to go weekly, uh, then you, you would double the number of priests you need to 5.98 or six. But here's, here's the bottom line for me. This is why the denial comes in about maybe not enough, is. If you were just to distill that down to like, if you could have one priest cover that time, that there's a demand for like 779.4 hours, or excuse me, minutes of confession, that priest would only be allocating approximately like seven and a half percent of their working hours, their work toward handling confession. This seems like not enough confession given the standards of confession in the Catholic church. And again, I know that I'm, I'm now allocating that to one priest and I just told everybody you need three. That's true. So if you had these three now, if you hired three just to meet the demand, that would only be about like three and a half or a little under three and a half percent of their combined time. So the denial is Catholics, I think, unless I'm way off in some of my assumptions here, you might not be confessing enough by your own standards because  [00:24:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:24:34] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, that seems like not enough time.  [00:24:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:24:39] Ritual Faithfulness Explained [00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think, um. I don't want to be too bombastic here, but I think,  [00:24:46] Jesse Schwamb: I think I already started this on this  [00:24:48] Tony Arsenal: path. Maybe this, maybe this isn't all that bombastic. Um, because this is so much about ritual and actually I say this is gonna sound really, we, we go, but trying to think from the Roman Catholic perspective, it's actually not, and I'll I'll tell you a brief story, uh, to explain it. Um, a lot of Roman Catholics are just going through the motions. [00:25:13] Jesse Schwamb: That's true.  [00:25:14] Tony Arsenal: But the point, the, the, the point of contention actually is that going through the motions is valuable for the Roman Catholic, right? So I, I knew this, uh, this young woman when I was in college who was a Roman Catholic, and we had many discussions about, about the differences between Protestantism and and Roman Catholicism. And what I came to understand is that going to mass for her. Itself was an act of faith. And so for the Roman Catholic, the concept of, of faith is different than the concept that Protestants operate under. So for the Roman Catholic who, um, goes to mass, even when they feel like they're, like, when they think they're just going through the motions, going through the motions is itself the act of faith. And that's because for most of Roman Catholics, most of Roman Catholicism, faith really equals faithfulness, right? So, so doing the act is the act of faithfulness. Doing the act is faith. Where for the Protestant, like faith is about belief and trust and knowledge. Like it's, it's an. Not entirely intellectual, but it's, it's an inward thing for the Roman Catholic faith is an out is primarily an outward thing. It's what you do, it's how you act. It's faith formed in love. It's faith formed in charity.  [00:26:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:26:37] Tony Arsenal: So I think most Roman Catholics going to obligatory confession first. I think once a month is probably like, probably more frequent than most Roman Catholics go to mass or go to confession. Um, I thought I read a stat that it was like every six months is, is pretty average and I think that's what's required by the church maybe even once a year is, is required by the church. Um, I think like most Roman Catholics go into the, the confessional booth and like father forgive me for I've sinned. It's been such and such a number of days since my last confession. Right. And they may bring up a couple particular things that they've done and, and then I think the priest commonly absolves them of all of their sins. Like, almost like in an omnibus fashion and then prescribes their acts of penance, which is it, it like, honestly, it's probably things they should already be doing as a faithful Catholic saying Hail Marys and doing our fathers and acts of charity and things like that. So I think your math is probably right. [00:27:39] Protestant Repentance Particular [00:27:39] Tony Arsenal: I think your, your theory that more confession is probably like, I'm gonna read this from, uh, the Westminster confession, just to, just to say it here, is, this is chapter 15, which is titled of Repentance Under Life. And this is, uh, this is section five or paragraph five. It says, men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but is every man's duty to endeavor, to repent of his particular sins, particularly. And I think that's just such a beautifully phrased sentence like. Not only is it like potent theologically, but like, it just, it just feels good, like in terms of like the English language to repent of your particular sins, particularly. And like the idea is yes, Protestant reform, Christians affirm a general repentance from sin, right? We repent of our sin before the father, uh, as a result of our, of our coming to faith in Christ. And as part of our sanctification, we mortify our sin and we, Viv we are vivified by the spirit and repentance falls in that ongoing sanctification process. And there is this general repentance of like, I repent of the fact that I'm a sinner and that I commit sins, but there is this element in the reformed faith of like, I should be confessing to God. And I think by extension, like we should be confessing to our fellow Christians, our particular sins, our individual sins, and we should be doing that on particular occasion. And I think like. The Luther style confession of like going into the confessor and confessing like every particular sin. Particularly I think most Roman Catholic priests would, priests. Priests would probably have the same reaction Tobits did where he was like, get outta here. Like, come on dude. Like just go live your life and like deal with it. I think that's probably the reaction most Catholic priests would have. But yeah, I think you're right. Like if we're really talking about like. Five, five minutes of confession once a month and that somehow having some sort of spiritual efficacy. I'm not sure I buy that math. Like I think you're, you're probably spot on.  [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:29:47] Confession Hours Oddities [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: I just was curious about how many priests would be required and then the allocation of the duties. By the way, you are right. So I, because I had to check on this, the, the fourth letter in council of 1215 does say that the church requires confession of any grave or mortal sins at least once a year. But the church, yeah, strongly encourages more frequent confession as a spiritual practice, even for, of course, like the venial or the less serious sins in their eyes. So yeah, my thought here was just that. I think it's actually undervalued by way of the math. Like the, as the kids say, the math just isn't math thing for me on this one. But I was more curious about, since this is one of the seven sacraments, even if you just said like, well, it should have at least one seven of the allocation. That's like, what? Like something like 14%. And so this is, um, almost half of that. I just found it a little bit, a little bit odd and yeah, I think you'd have to be, uh, so in other words, when I looked at the, basically, here's the bottom line. When I looked at the hours for confession one, there were weird times and uh, two, I was like, that doesn't seem like enough hours. Like, it was just more like that. Like how that's like saying like, Hey, the post office is open three hours a week, and by the way, one of those hours is from seven to eight o'clock on Friday. Like they had some hours. One hour just on Friday was like, I guess that's the way you wanna start your weekend is like, let's get all of this off my chest. Yeah. And, and do it. Right. And the last thing I'll say by the way, is you're correct. When you look at the instruction they give you, and this is common of course, toward the end, when they say like, here's how you like wrap up your part. Actually everybody should go read, go to the local, local Catholic church website and read the instructions. 'cause in some ways they're just interesting and kind of, um, I don't wanna say funny 'cause I'm not making fun. I'm just saying like, they have to give you instruction if you've never done it before. And so most of us are not really probably familiar with the process and they give you explicit instruction and toward the end it's like, here's how you kinda like hang up the call with the priest. And it's like you said, you know, these are my sins and all others, would you be willing to forgive? So you're right. Right. They just kinda wrap them all up because it's sins of omission, sense of commission, it's all to be together. But I, I wonder, you gotta think there's people in there that are like. The priests are like, okay, man, just yeah. Wrap, come on, wrap, wrap it up.  [00:31:55] Confession Timing Talk [00:31:55] Jesse Schwamb: And other people that come in are just like, you know, forgive me father. And uh, lastly to your point, when they give you instruction about how you should start, of course you're always to signify how long it's been since your last confession. Right. Confession. And they say parenthetically, like, reference the days, weeks, months, or years. So you're right. There are gonna be people that probably do it very frequently and probably people who do it infrequently still, I would say I just couldn't believe for a church this large, that there was just three hours a week.  [00:32:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:21] Jesse Schwamb: For everybody else.  [00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:23] Vance and Papal Authority [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: This leads me to two very brief sub, uh, denials slash affirmations. Uh, I don't know if you saw this, um, this is not a political statement, right? I, I have lots of feelings and thoughts about the current administration and I think most of my feelings and thoughts would surprise. Everybody. But I thought it was hilarious because JD Vance, who is a Roman Catholic, uh, confessed Roman Catholic part of the Roman Catholic Church, uh, he ha I, I'm not sure if I'm affirming or denying this, there was this funny, uh, funny exchange. I think he was at doing like a, doing like a TPU, I don't know, speech. He was doing a speech at some conservative event and he said something like, I think that the Pope should be more careful when he makes theological statements. I'm wanna be like, do you understand what the pope is in your religion? That was one of my sub denials. Uh, I don't remember what the other one is, so it must not have been that important. It'll come back to me at the worst possible moment and I will try very hard not to interrupt our show for it, but I probably will fail.  [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:33:25] Reading Matthew 21 [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, we, we gotta get to some scripture because. We're, we're doing this old school style where we take like half the time and just talk about affirmations. It's true in house. It's true. Which is great fun. But let's, let's get back to Matthew 21. And I, I know we did this last time, but I am gonna rock through the passage 'cause of course, that's the best part of any of our discussion, is actually hearing from, from the Holy Spirit through the scripture, uh, which he's given to us. So this is, uh, Matthew 21, starting in verse 33. And you're gonna hear the, the whole thing right here. Uh, this is Jesus speaking. Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it and dug a wine press in it and built a tower and rented it out to vine growers and went on a journey. Now, when the high risk time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit, and the vine growers took his slaves and beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Again, he sent another group of slaves larger than the first, and they did the same thing to them. But afterward he sent his son to them saying they will respect my son. But when the vine growers saw the sun, they said among themselves, this is the heir. Come let us kill him and seize his inheritance, and they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine growers? They said to him, he will bring those wretches to a wretched end and will rent out the vineyard to other vine growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them, did you ever read in the scriptures the stone, which the builders rejected? This has become the chief cornerstone. This came about from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes. Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruit of it. And he who falls in the stone will be broken to pieces, but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they understood that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds because they're regarding him to be a prophet. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:35:30] Pharisees Condemn Themselves [00:35:30] Tony Arsenal: This is like a super heavy parable. Right. And we talked a lot last week about how like the point of this parable is not necessarily to try to instruct the Pharisees or the Sadducees. Like it's not to instruct the people who were going to reject Christ, uh, the, the builders who would reject the cornerstone. It's really a parable to teach those. Who are observing this process happening. But I think it's, I, I think it's really interesting just listening to you read this and reading through it, and I guess this is a question I haven't asked and I, I need to study a little bit more. It's crazy to me in verse 41, um, Christ seems the, the, the, um, Matthew seems to say here, and maybe I need to do a little bit more Greek study, so bear with me and, and have grace if I'm wrong here. Matthew seems to say that like Christ asks the people he's speaking to, the Pharisees he's speaking to, what is he gonna do to these people? And the Pharisees answer, he's gonna put those wretches to a miserable death.  [00:36:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: Like the people listening to this parable understand the outcome, like they understand the. The consequence that the, the, the vineyard owner or the vineyard tenant tenants are facing based on their lack of faithfulness to the covenant. To me, that is like a really striking part of this parable. And, and it's not even like the parable proper, but like the striking element of the context of this is that nobody listening to this parable, including the Pharisees that this parable has basically spoken against, nobody fails to see the gravity of the consequence of rejecting God's emissary, like rejecting the Messiah. That to me is like a really, I dunno, paradigmatic. Portion of this that I think we need to grapple with. This is not an unclear, an unclear outcome. This is not, this is not masked or vague or OPA opaque. Like everybody understands, the people who reject the Messiah are going to face dire and eternal consequences for that act. [00:37:48] Jesse Schwamb: That does make this really interesting, doesn't it? Because it's not just entirely like Romans one adventures or even Romans two. It's that this is what Jesus does and he does it in a profound way that's not trickery like I think kinda like you're saying like the lead up to this isn't as if he's even leading the witness. He's making it very clear, all like the parameters of the story and the characters involved and what should be the proper judgment. And it's not as if like they start saying, they're like, oh, we shouldn't say anything more like we, we plead the fifth because it's gonna condemn ourselves. He draws his audience in to producing and pronouncing like their own sentence. It's very much like, I think I mentioned this last time, the prophet Nathan and David, isn't it? It's the exact same. Yeah. And the verdict is unanswerable, like even in its own terms. These other, like these other vine growers, prefigures of course like the inclusion of the Gentiles and the apostolic office. But I like that what Jesus does here, even before he gets to that point, is he extorts from them an acknowledgement of the punishment which awaited them. And so in this way there's like, I think the Puritans use this passage a lot actually to demonstrate that the natural conscience even of like the unregenerate, still bears witness to divine justice. That's Romans two. Like they, they can't get out from underneath it and Jesus isn't using any trickery on them to get them to say this thing. They are compelled in their own way, even being unregenerate to, like you said, even as they're rejecting the Messiah to recognize that punishment is due these characters in the story, even as they perceive at the end that they are those characters. [00:39:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Saying we'll receive the judgment.  [00:39:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:25] Usurpers Not Misguided [00:39:25] Tony Arsenal: And I think too, like, um, this is kind of one of those chicken or the egg scenarios, right? Like Christ is both recognizing the intention of their heart as well as prophesying. And, and not just prophesying, but like inception level prophesying the, the outcome of the intention of their heart. And so like, again, like we've, we spent a whole week kind of like leading into the parable and now we spent a whole week, we're gonna spend a whole week again kind of leading into the parable. This is such a deep parable, and that like Christ is not just laying bare. The fact that the, the people who were going to reject him were doing so out of this sort of like attempt and intention of usurping the kingdom of God for their own purposes. I think that brings a layer to this that we don't often appreciate in. Christ's interaction with the Pharisees. I think sometimes, and maybe this is because I just listened to an episode of where Matt Whitman on the 10 minute Bible hour talked about this. I think sometimes we actually have a tendency to sort of be sympathetic to the Pharisees where we think, you know, they were, they were just trying to obey God's law and they got a little sideways on it and you know, they were putting these boundaries in place, but they were doing it in this sort of like misguided attempt to protect the people. Christ actually here seems to contradict that in that the comparison he's making is not to a, a well-intentioned group of people who just get it wrong, but he's painting the Pharisees, the, the religious leaders, the Sadducees, the chief priests. He's painting them as these usurpers who recognize the proper authority of right. The master and his emissaries and ultimately of his son, they recognize this proper authority and rather than submitting to it and submitting to the covenant obligations that they, they already actually agreed to, instead of doing that, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own right. It's not just that they do the wrong thing, it's that they recognize the heir, which is Christ. They recognize this heir and they kill him to try to take his place. That is a really heavy element of this parable. Christ is not painting. Um, the, the, the Pharisees here, the, the religious leaders. He's not painting them as um, well-intentioned, but ultimately wrong, which is I think a lot of times, and I think there's reason to do this right. I'm not being overly critical and I've done this, I've actually done this myself, and I think there's some. Space for it. Like the Pharisees were wrong, but they were wrong, kind of in the right direction sometimes. Um, Christ is not really on board with that, at least in this parable. Right. This isn't about them thinking that the heir was a threat, and so killing the threat in, you know, inadvertently this is them absolutely seeing who the hair, who the heir is, and intentionally deciding to reject that heir and to murder him and to try to take his inheritance. Mm-hmm. That's an affront to not only the heir who they murder, but an affront to the owner of the vineyard himself, which of course in this parable is figured to be God the father primarily. But God in sort of general terms, like the whole Godhead, um, with Christ as the second Adam has, as his representative, as his heir. This is a really heavy parable and I think where this comes into play for us in our own Christian life is. Are there times where we. Sort of do the same thing in refusing to, maybe it's tie into your denial a little bit. Like refusing to acknowledge our own sinfulness, refusing to acknowledge the ways that God has provided for us. Um, do we at times look at what we have and lay claim to it as though it is our own inheritance that we've taken? Um, right. Do we kind of crucify the son of God anew in, in refusing to repent of our sins particularly? I dunno. I think those are some open questions for us to kind of explore as we dig into this a bit more. [00:43:54] Jesse Schwamb: And that may relate as well to, well eventually at some point, I dunno, like 2040, get to like the parable of the talents. There's some similarity there with a little bit, right? You're saying? I think you're right.  [00:44:06] God Does All the Verbs [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: And where I think we can anchor some of that is in those first couple of verses. I'm really always impressed by really the number of action verbs that are packed within, like that just initial statement of Jesus explaining the situation. [00:44:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:44:19] Jesse Schwamb: So he sets it all up and he's saying there's a planting that goes on, this landowner puts up a wall, digs a wine press. Builds a tower and then RINs it. So there's all these like amazing things being done, all this action verb. And I, I think in part why he comes against the Pharisees so hard in the same way that we're looking at like the parable that, uh, the, uh, talents for instance of saying like, what did you do with that was entrusted to you was like this great treasure which Christ has entrusted or God has entrusted to his people, which is, is the gospel essentially is, is all a prophetic witness, is like the truth of who God is and his revelation of himself. And so I think. The first thing we gotta see in those verbs is that there's this emphasis that the vineyard was God's sovereign creation. You know, he plants it, he chose it, he established it. Israel didn't plant herself. She was planted. And that sovereign initiative is foundational, I think in, like you're saying, the parables indictment, because these vine growers, they don't possess anything that they did not receive. Right. You know, they did not find a vineyard already planted, but God himself made it from the wilderness that all his glory, all the glory might be his. So. I think it's helpful for us to observe that the church is always the planting of the Lord and that no congregation flourishes that is not first planted by God. And so there is a major offense here when those who are to care for it, who know, like you're saying, that they ought to care for it, who understand something about the hierarchy and the way it has been entrusted to them. Not to only break that covenant, but then seek to try to usurp the power in the roles of those whom they should be, quite frankly, in our own language, like under shepherds too. And so it starts with all, all those verbs. Like I think we could probably spend a. A lot of times just speaking about what does it mean? Why? Why is there all this explicit in particular language about the fact that there's a hedge and there's a press besides just these are part in piece mail or part and parcel of what it means to have a vineyard, apparently, but that they're all part of this narrative of God talking about how he protects and cares for his people and sets them in a place and chooses them and is particular about the construction and does so with great volition and authority and care and concern and creative ability. And then again, you have those who are meant there to do the very job that he's entrusted them with. And not only are they not doing that, and of course you're right. Jesus elsewhere, comes in, comes in hot, right, with a Pharisees saying like, listen, you set burdens on people's backs that you yourselves cannot lift. You're twice as in the hell as anybody else, and that's who you are. Yeah. It's not just hypocrisy, but you're literally setting people up to fail in this. So you can see how you're right. It's not just like, guys, I appreciate that. Like you wanted to set up some additional boundaries and maybe you took it a little bit too far. This parable is just scorched earth. It's, it's nuclear. Yeah.  [00:47:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:47:11] Scandalous Vineyard Setup [00:47:11] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think, um, we are obviously gonna spend another week on this 'cause we still have not really addressed a single verse in this parable. I, I think like a lot of ink has been spilled on explaining sort of like the feal agricultural arrangements of this passage. What it represents. M my understanding is. A typical arrangement would be that a, a landowner would basically just lease out land and the tenants would be responsible for the planting, for the development. Right. And the, the, the landowner would essentially just collect a portion of whatever they produce. Right. This parable is actually taking this a step further. Exactly. That it's not as though the landowner just says like, all right, you can use this land. Right. And I own the land, so I get a portion of the pro, the profit. He's actually done all the work. Yes. And all that. The, all that the, the tenants need to do essentially is reap the harvest and then provide the portion of the harvest that belongs to the landowner, and so there is a greater investment. Of the landowner into this land than would be expected. We've commented in the past about how a lot of times the, the parables start on sort of a premise of shock. Like there's a, there's an element of the setup of the, of the parable where the audience would kind of like sit back and gasp or kind of be like, wait a second. Like that's not normal. Right. In the parable of the, the, um, lost son, it was the idea that like the son demanded his inheritance. And that wasn't the shocking part. The shocking part was that the father just granted it. Right. Or, um, the lost sheep, like the, there's actually a sort of a shocking element to the fact that like the, the land, the like sheep owner would just go get this other sheep. So we've, we've commented on there's kind of like. There's sort of like a scandalous setup. The scandalous setup in this is not that the land has been leased to tenants, right? It's that the land has been prepared for the tenants before it was leased out in the first place. And I think that's something we might miss if we read over this too quickly, is. The landowner has prepared everything for these, these tenants.  [00:49:30] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:49:31] Tony Arsenal: So the, the, at the, the punchline of the parable where they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty of, um, sovereignty and maybe a lowercase s in the, in the context of the parable, they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty and the rightful claim of the tenant or of the landowner on the, the profit of the land. And sort of like highlighter emphasized by the fact that they actually didn't do any of the work. There's a certain kind of like Amer, like American rugged individualism where we're kind of like, yeah, like if I planted all the crops, then it's kind of lame that this guy's coming in expecting to take a portion of it, right? Like, yeah, I guess he owns the land, so maybe he gets a little piece of it, but like, who does he think he is? All of that already is already short circuited. Like I. The, these tenants are not actually, um, portrayed as doing anything in this parable. That's right. Like they just lease the land. They, they, um, and leased is not really like the right. The right word, the, the Greek word is omi, which is like he gave over the land to them. Um, when we say leased, we have this idea that like the tenants pay to use the land and then like part of their contract is that whatever profits they reap, uh, off the land goes back to the, to the landowner. This is really more like the landowner graciously allowed them to live on this land, and the only payment he required was that they would eventually provide him part of the profit back. Like he's planted the land, he's put up the fence around it. He dug the wine press so that they could make a product out of it. He built the tower so it would be defended. Yes. And he gave it over to them essentially just to like live on until it was time for the harvest. And all he is asking for is basically like, alright, so this is my land. I've planted the vineyards, the profit is mine to have. And so when the time came for him to come claim that that's where they have now rejected him. Yes. That's where they've now said like, I know you did all the work and really graciously allowed us to live in this land, but we're gonna keep all of it for ourselves. That's the scandal of this. That's what I think like the original audience would've set up and like, wait a second here. Like, hold on. They didn't even plant the vineyards themselves. They didn't even build the tower themselves. That's really the force of this that I think we miss when we, when we overemphasize, trying to think through like what the original agricultural arrangements were. 'cause this is painted. Very different than what the original arrangements would've been typical for. Like this is a different scenario and I think intentionally so,  [00:52:09] Jesse Schwamb: and we need those words like rented, at least in English, to help us understand that it didn't belong to them. It wasn't a gift, right? It wasn't as if like it was just turned over in the sense that it belongs to you now do with it what you will. And it's very clear in the passage one, like you said, that the landowner does all those things. So it was a, you know, he completely set it up. I mean, this is just such a beautiful, I think, depiction of the hold of prophetic, you know, understanding of God's word here, but it's very clear that says the, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit. So you're right. The scandal is that they're like, well, obviously. They need to give him his fruits, like  [00:52:48] Tony Arsenal: right.  [00:52:48] Jesse Schwamb: It was all set up before he left on this long journey. He then turned it over to them to care for, and that was really all that they were supposed to do. They had no role in this. And so it does like lead us in into this weird space where it's like, well, well what, what did the Pharisees think they were trying to do themselves? What does actually Jesus commenting on, on their own, like licit on their own initiative here, is he basically saying that not only are they not respecting his sovereignty, but they were trying to claim for themselves what only rightly belongs to God that even their position right. Society in culture as their representatives, God himself, they wanted to take that over for themselves, which he does bring that condemnation upon them in other parts of the scripture. So again, this is really hot. I think it's a, it's both heat and light, but there's no doubt that there's fire to this, right? Because it's a direct indictment that God the father set all of this up. You yourselves are on rented property, but guess what? Even the property that you've rented, I'm not exacting a tax from you as if like you have put forward and grown or supplied or created some kind of profitable outcome here. And I just want a piece of that. He's not even talking about tithing in that sense. What he's basically saying is, none of this belongs to you. Like how? Right? How dare you? None of this is yours. I set all of this up and in fact, because you've done so poor poorly at this, I'm gonna take it away from you and give it to those who actually produce fruit and guess what's gonna be the Gentiles? So it's, there's a wild. Amounts of condemnation packed into a very small story.  [00:54:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It really is.  [00:54:22] Tenants Add Nothing [00:54:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there is nothing expected of these tenants. Right. There's no contract, like there's no terms, they, they really add nothing to the, the landowner's land, except I guess maybe they're the ones harvesting these, this fruit. Right. But even that's not explicit in the parable.  [00:54:43] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:54:43] Tony Arsenal: Right. Right. He, he does all just to steal your thunder, like he does all the verbs. Yes. All of the ves are done by the landowner.  [00:54:50] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Right  [00:54:51] Tony Arsenal: on. There is an implication that the, the tenants are somehow like the ones harvesting this, or they're the ones producing the wine, I guess, in the wine vat or the wine press. But at the end of the day. A normal tenant landowner agreement would be, I'm, you're, first of all, you're probably gonna pay me to use this land, right? You're paying me to use this land, and the way you pay me is you're gonna plant the, the gr the crop. You're gonna harvest it. You're gonna make the produce, and all I'm gonna do is let you live on this land. I'm gonna take the pro, like the profit, you're gonna pay me outta that profit. There is nothing asked or expected of these, th

In this powerful episode of The Reformed Brotherhood, Tony and Jesse dive deep into Matthew 21:33-46, examining Jesus's parable of the wicked tenants. The hosts unpack how Christ masterfully draws the Pharisees into pronouncing their own condemnation, revealing not merely theological error but intentional usurpation of God's authority. Through careful exegesis, they explore the shocking setup of the parable—where the landowner does all the work while the tenants contribute nothing—and how this mirrors God's sovereign initiative in salvation. The discussion touches on confession, the value of full-time ministry, and the scandal of rejecting the Messiah despite recognizing His authority. This episode challenges listeners to examine whether they, like the Pharisees, attempt to claim God's work as their own. Key Takeaways God Does All the Verbs: The parable emphasizes that the landowner planted, built, protected, and prepared everything—the tenants contributed nothing yet claimed ownership of the fruit. Self-Pronounced Condemnation: Jesus draws the Pharisees into declaring their own judgment, demonstrating that even the unregenerate conscience bears witness to divine justice (Romans 2). Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error: The Pharisees weren't well-intentioned but misguided; they recognized Christ's authority as the heir and deliberately murdered Him to seize His inheritance. The Scandal of Grace: The parable's shocking element is that the landowner prepared everything before leasing the land—far exceeding normal agricultural arrangements and illustrating God's unmerited favor. Ecclesial Support for Ministry: The OPC presbytery's decision to fund a full-time call demonstrates how church structure can honor the ministry of Word and sacrament by freeing ministers from worldly distractions. Particular Repentance Matters: Westminster Confession 15.5 teaches that believers should not content themselves with general repentance but "endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly." The Stone Rejected Becomes Chief: Christ's citation of Psalm 118 reveals that the very rejection by the builders (religious leaders) was God's plan to establish the cornerstone of salvation. Key Concepts God Does All the Verbs The concentration of action verbs attributed solely to the landowner in Matthew 21:33 is theologically significant. The landowner plants, builds, digs, and rents—creating a fully functional, productive vineyard before the tenants ever arrive. This arrangement differs radically from typical first-century agricultural practices, where tenants would lease raw land and develop it themselves, sharing profits with the landowner. Jesus deliberately presents an extraordinary scenario where the tenants receive everything prepared and ready, requiring only stewardship of what already exists. This parallels God's sovereign initiative in election and salvation: believers contribute nothing to their standing before God, receiving instead a fully accomplished redemption. The Pharisees' rebellion wasn't against burdensome requirements but against simply acknowledging God's rightful ownership of what He alone created. Intentional Usurpation, Not Mere Error The hosts challenge the common sympathetic reading of the Pharisees as well-intentioned legalists who simply got sidetracked. Instead, verse 38 reveals the tenants explicitly recognize the son as heir and plot to murder him to "seize his inheritance." This isn't accidental rejection but calculated rebellion. The Pharisees weren't confused about Jesus's identity or authority—they understood precisely who He claimed to be and deliberately chose to destroy Him rather than submit. This interpretation carries significant weight for understanding the nature of unbelief: it's not primarily intellectual confusion but volitional rebellion. The religious leaders didn't need more evidence or clearer teaching; they needed transformed hearts. This same dynamic appears whenever humans recognize divine truth yet choose self-sovereignty over submission to God's rightful claim on their lives. The Scandal of Grace The parable begins with a scandalous premise that would have startled Jesus's original audience. Unlike normal tenant farming arrangements where landowners simply provided land in exchange for a share of whatever the tenants produced through their own labor, this landowner invests everything. He doesn't just own the property—he plants the vineyard, constructs the protective wall, digs the wine press for production, and builds the watchtower for defense. The tenants receive a turnkey operation requiring minimal effort. This extravagant preparation mirrors God's unmerited favor toward Israel and, by extension, the church. God didn't merely create humanity and wait to see what we would produce; He established covenants, sent prophets, preserved His Word, and ultimately sent His Son—all before requiring any response. The only "payment" demanded is acknowledging His ownership of what He created. The parable thus exposes the absurdity and ingratitude of claiming God's work as our own achievement. Memorable Quotes God does all the verbs. All of the verbs are done by the landowner. There is nothing expected of these tenants—they really add nothing to the landowner's land. Christ is not painting the Pharisees as well-intentioned but ultimately wrong. He's painting them as usurpers who recognize the proper authority and rather than submitting to it, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man's duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly. (Westminster Confession 15.5) Transcript Welcome to episode 491 of the Reformed Brotherhood. I'm Jesse.  [00:01:12] Tony Arsenal: And I'm Tony. And this is the podcast with ears to hear. Hey brother.  [00:01:17] Jesse Schwamb: Hey brother.  [00:01:18] Parable of Tenants [00:01:18] Jesse Schwamb: So picture this, Tony, your landlord. You've built the perfect vineyard. We're talking wall watchtower, wine, press, the works like what everybody says. Everybody knows you need all those things. You've got it all set up, and then you hand the keys to some tenants. You take a long trip, you go enjoy yourself. And when the harvest rolls around, you send your servants to collect the rent. And shockingly, your tenants, they beat. Stone. Another, the kill a third. So naturally you think, you know what? I'll fix this. Lemme just send more people. That's obviously the problem. There's some kind of just profound misunderstanding about what's going on here and about our relationship in this business. And then when that doesn't work, you send your son now loved ones. If this were a business strategy, we would already be calling hr. But of course it's not a business strategy, it's a parable. And Jesus is telling it to the very people about to prove the parable true. So welcome back to the Reformed Brotherhood because we're in Matthew Chapter 21 and we're gonna be actually getting all the way into the parable of the Vine growers where the patience of God looks, I would say, to almost anybody else, to humanize at least almost reckless until you realize that's exactly the point. So yeah, grab your beverage of choice, grab your Bible, pull the car over, will you? Because this is gonna get real and we're going to reason together. But before we do all of that, let's do a little affirming with or denying against, what do you got?  [00:02:41] Inside Baseball Affirmation [00:02:41] Tony Arsenal: So this is a sort of inside baseball, uh, affirmation. Um, I'm not sharing anything, although it may feel like I'm sharing something that is private and like, uh, like confidential. It's not No, this is good. Um, so I had the opportunity to visit. Um, my presbytery, um, for those who are listeners of the show or people who like, have been with us a long time, um, I was part of a Baptist church. Uh, I've always kind of been a Presbyterian at heart, but, um, our church closed, uh, a little over a year and a half ago now. And, um, uh, I've joined an OPC congregation in membership now. We've been members there for about a year. And, um, so I've been visiting Presbytery, which is the, the meeting of all of the leadership of all of the churches. So we won't do a polity breakdown here, but basically like, it's, it's the regional meeting. It's the regional business meeting or church meeting for a group of churches in the OPC, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. And so a lot of the meetings, you know, have the normal kind of business type stuff. You have reports from different committee committees and stuff. Um.  [00:03:48] Presbytery Call Debate [00:03:48] Tony Arsenal: Where this is affirmation is coming in here is at this most recent presbytery meeting, um, was pretty heavy on, um, licensing or, or, uh, not licensing on approving men who had received a call to formal ministry within the presbytery. And so in the OPC, and I would imagine that other Presbyterian bodies are not like super different, although I'm sure there's some variation in the OPC. Um, when a church intends to extend a call to a pastor, to a teaching elder, um, to a minister, they must have the call, which is. Is both theological but is also eminently practical. Like the call is a physical piece of paper that details, you know, what the pay is, how much vacation time. So it's kind of a combination between like a theological call and also a contract. Um, the presbytery has to approve that call. And so at this most recent one, there was a couple calls that were more or less uncontroversial. There was no question about them, and they were approved pretty quickly. But there was one call, um, one call to ministry that took, I, I, I didn't time it, but it was probably like four or five hours of debate and discussion in various fashion in order to get to a point where the presbytery could approve the call. So this was a call to a minister who is being called part-time, which is unusual in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, the OPC uh, acknowledges the fact that bivocational tent making ministry is sometimes a necessity, but really views the ministry of the word in sacrament as something that should not have. Distractions. And actually our book of church order talks about, doesn't use the word distraction, I think, but it talks about a, a properly ordered call to a full-time minister includes phrasing that the congregation promises to compensate them in a way that allows them to be free of worldly burdens and cares. And I might have not, not have gotten that wording exactly right. But that's the idea. And so this call was. Explicitly, um, not a full-time call it, they actually took the language out of promising to pay him in a way that he's able to ignore or to not be distracted by worldly care. And that was intentional, but there was a lot of question in discussion at presbytery level about the fact that the call did not include the phrase or the wording of part-time or bivocational. So the conversation started out of like, can this call be modified to include that? So it's explicitly known in this man's call that his calling is part-time, which is both theological, to make sure that the call is properly formatted, but also like very practical that the congregation should acknowledge explicitly that they recognize that this person is not, not going to be putting, you know, 40 hours a week or 50 hours a week towards this position. [00:06:34] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:06:34] Tony Arsenal: Um. What I'm affirming is where it got to, right? So there was lots of discussion about that. There was some finagling about the retirement package. The OPC recommends that a, a minister be given a retirement contribution of no less than 5% a year of his salaried package. Um, which there's a couple line items that go into that, but 5%, and this was a little bit less than that. And this is what I'm affirming and this, I, I don't know that this is a super widespread thing that would happen all across the, um, the OPC, but it happened in the presbytery of New York and New England this past week, and it's just amazing. And I just, I just want to lay it out there and then I want to hear your reaction. [00:07:13] Funding Full Time Ministry [00:07:13] Tony Arsenal: And I, I wanna hear your reaction as the son of a minister who labored his entire adult, more or less, his entire adult career in ministry, working two or three additional jobs on top of his ministry, the presbytery decided. That because it did not like the idea of a part-time minister. They didn't think that was appropriate. They didn't think that that was good or that that was really the right goal. The presbytery allocated, I'm not gonna say the figures 'cause they're not super germane, but allocated a significant amount of money to be dis to be dispersed to the church for the next three years in order to take what was a part-time call and enable it to become a full-time call. [00:07:54] Jesse Schwamb: Wow.  [00:07:54] Tony Arsenal: And so there are a lot of, there are a lot of church bodies that would say, yeah, we don't love the idea of bi-vocational ministry. You know, we really think it's ideal that a minister could be full-time. Um, they may even put some, some theological freight behind that. Um, I have never encountered a body, um. That was willing to put a sizable amount of money towards essentially supplementing a part-time call to make it full-time. Um, this was just amazing to me, and the candidate was there. I didn't get a chance to talk to him, but I would love to talk to him about what he felt. I, I can just imagine the phone call to his wife who was not, not at presbytery, but to his wife, following the outcome of this to be like, you are never gonna believe what just happened. Right? This is a family who was intending to move across country. Right. He's currently a student at Westminster, California in seminary, uh, California, Westminster Seminary in California, finishing his M Div. They're planning a cross country move into a part-time position where she's probably gonna have to find a job, and then also he's gonna have to find a part-time job. He had the ability to call her on the break and be like, you're never gonna guess what just happened? You're never gonna,  [00:09:09] Jesse Schwamb: it's wild.  [00:09:09] Tony Arsenal: Uh, sorry, I'm getting a little emotional here. You're never going to. Believe how faithful God is in this. Right. So I'm interested to hear your reaction to that as the son of a, of a try and quad at times Quad vocational. Yeah,  [00:09:23] Jesse Schwamb: for sure.  [00:09:23] Tony Arsenal: Minister who labored his entire, more or less, his entire adult career, um, working full-time in a call as a part-time, part-time minister. You know, like that's a, that's a crazy situation. So I'm just affirming that again, I don't know how common that kind of thing is in the OPC. I don't wanna make it seem like that's the norm. Um, I actually get the sense that this is probably not the norm, but it was amazing to see and it made me in intensely like. Proud in the right way of being a part of this broader body that would, would so emphasize and so value the ministry of the word and the sacrament, and the importance of a man being able to dedicate himself to that without distraction. That they would put forward this amount of money and this kind of money. They had no reason to do so. And there's no real direct benefit to the presbytery for doing this. I mean, there's an indirect benefit of like not having a church with a part-time minister, but like there's no direct benefit to this. There's no direct return on investments that's gonna come out of this. Um, it was pretty amazing to see. It was, it was, it was super encouraging.  [00:10:28] Jesse Schwamb: That is really encouraging. I, I think it's, there's no doubt that for the called pastor, their heart is in the ministry of the word. That's what they want to be doing. They wanna be doing it all the time and as much time as they possibly can, and they wanna be able to have all of their intentional focus on it. So I. I'm excited for that guy. I mean, that's just an incredible blessing to go in hoping for funding, essentially for a part-time role and to basically be told, no, no, no, no, that's, that's not enough. We want you to be committed to this fully as we know your heart is committed. As we validated that call.  [00:11:00] Why Structure Matters [00:11:00] Jesse Schwamb: I do love being a part of churches, well, lemme say it this way. There is, I think, a benefit of being part of congregations that have like a wide resource network that has like appropriate hierarchy and structure and that can be one of them. I've seen something similar in the Christian Missionary Alliance, which is the church that I'm in, not exactly the same, but I've seen some surprising allocations of resources where they basically said, you know, this is important. Like, it even trumps we're, we're gonna. Allocate or resource something so that this can move forward because it is important in a way that was like better than the person who was bringing it before them could have hoped for. Yeah. And uh, suddenly it's as if everything aligned. And it was really in part because there was this structure to come alongside, to validate as you're saying, and then to authenticate and then again to resource assets that could be used. There's, there's something to be said for that interdependency where there is kind of this hierarchical structure in which all that's happening at a level where things are codified. And again, like there's a structure and a way in which we move through those decisions to make sure that they suit the objective of the entire movement. So I guess there's nothing I'll say, but that's a beautiful thing, isn't it?  [00:12:14] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:12:15] Generosity in Action [00:12:15] Tony Arsenal: It was, it was, it was cool because it was like this, it was like this real. Actualization of the principle of outdoing one another and showing honor. Yeah, sure. Because you know, like the initial debate was like, Hey, you know, I'm not sure we can approve this call because the, the OPCs guidelines tell us not to approve a call that has less than 5% of the retirement benefit. And there was a lot of discussion of like, well, the presbytery can't modify the call, but we don't wanna delay this guy coming in and like, we don't wanna delay his ordination, his installation. And so the initial proposal was a, a. What feels like a large amount of money to me. But after I understood more about the, the budget of what's going on in, in the presbytery was actually a very small amount of money. Started with a very tiny, very modest proposal of basically like supplementing the retirement fund to make sure that like we could, they, I say we, like, I was part of this, I was just observing, but to supplement the retirement fund in a way that allowed the church to still proceed with the call as written, but still also make sure that this person had the appropriate retirement fund. And then that just basically was like, there would be some instruction given to the church that like, you've gotta bump this up in the next budget cycle. Like you've gotta get to the 5%. That's, that's the expectation. It went from that. And like I said, I won't give you the specific numbers, but one of the presbyters and I, I'm, I, um, I, I've known this presbyter from a distance for quite a long time and, and I have an immense amount of respect for him. He stood up and he's like, well, if we're gonna give X, why don't we just give 10 times X instead? And then actually, like the discussion was like, well, is, are we sure that 10 times X is even the right amount? Why don't we have this particular group meet over the lunch break and figure out whether that's the right number and then come back after lunch and we'll vote on it. And then they came back after lunch and it was actually a number that was even greater than 10 times X. So it was like this exercise in like. This very small proposal that was still imminently generous, right? The presbytery has no obligation to do this. There's no obligation from any of the presbyters to stand up and say like, we should. We should supplement this fund. They would've been well within their right, and no one would've looked, I think. I think some people would've been frustrated by it, but I don't think anyone would've looked sideways at it or thought it was sinful. If the presbytery just said like, we can't approve this call. You guys are gonna have to come back with it and we'll vote on it at the next presbytery. Like that would've been problematic. This, this kind of poor guy who's coming outta seminary, his call and his beginning of employment would've been delayed, but like. That would've been good and orderly, but instead they were like, one, we don't want this pulpit to stay empty longer. We don't wanna disadvantage this guy who's just getting done with seminary. We want him to get started. We don't wanna discourage him. So here's a small proposal, a very modest amount of money that we can put forward for this purpose. And then it was like, let's just keep seeing how much closer to a real full-time call we can get. And they finally came back and said like, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this in a wise fashion. They structured it. So like the first year he gets more, the second year he gets a little bit less. The third year the church gets a little bit less with the idea that like each year the church should be adjusting their budget to compensate and get this guy to that with the, the hope that like with a full-time minister, they're able to grow their congregation to the point where they can support a full-time minister. So it was just this really cool, super encouraging exercise. And what I loved about it is the only real debate that was going on was about do we need to do more? There was no one being like, wait a second, why are we, why are we putting more money to this? The whole thing was like, is this actually enough to accomplish what we think God wants to do with this person's call? Because if, if God is truly calling this man to this, this particular church, and we believe that he is. Then what do we as a, as a people of God need to do to enable that call to look like what we actually believe calls to ministry are supposed to look like, which is a full-time call to ministry that is undistracted by the cares of the world. What do we need to do? The answer in this case was like, I think we need to put a sizable amount of money to it. Um, it's a, I mean, and again. I'm not gonna say it on the air. It was not a small chunk of change. Um, it was, it was a, it was a large amount of money that was devoted to this cause and that just goes to show how much this body values the importance of a full-time minister of the word, so. [00:16:50] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:16:51] OPC Love and Recommendation [00:16:51] Tony Arsenal: That's enough about that. I, I could gush about how proud I am to be a part of this body and how encouraged I am and how amazing it was and how awesome this, this guy, how, how much this guy must be thanking God for the providence and like, this is the last thing. I'll say this, this young man younger than me, I think he's graduating seminary. I saw him across the room. He looks like he's probably in his mid twenties, right? Young guy. He's got a wife doesn't have kids yet coming into this ministry, not only is he coming into this ministry, but as a Presbyterian minister, when he's installed as the minister of this church. He will be joining this body of presbyters as the, as his brothers like. He is not a member of the local church. He's a member of the presbytery, which is the regional church. So now he's coming into this fully supported by his brothers in the presbytery that he saw go to the mat to make sure he was properly taken care of, that the congregation was not unintentionally taking advantage of his labor, but also that he knows that all of these men are willing to do what they need to do to make sure that his ministry is successful and edifies the church like that is. Uh, I don't want to gush on Presbyterianism too much, but like that is Presbyterianism at peak form, right? This is the body of elders making sure that every church in the region, even the ones they're not directly ministering in, has what it needs to succeed and to honor God and to do what needs to happen. So I'm affirming the presbytery of New York and New England and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Um, I have been so blessed by knowing many of these presbyters. I've been so blessed by being a part of the congregation that I am. There are lots of really great churches and really great denominations out there. If you are looking for a church and there is an OPC congregation in your area, absolutely go check it out. I know it feels stuffy sometimes, and I will admit, like sometimes it feels a little bit overly traditional in terms of like just the vibe of the congregation,  [00:18:52] Jesse Schwamb: right?  [00:18:52] Tony Arsenal: But press past that because I don't think, I don't think you will find, um. You may find lots of congregations that are as faithful. I don't think you're gonna find many that are more faithful than your average OPC congregation. So I could be wrong. I just, I just love the OPC. I just really, really love it. So that's my affirmation. What do you got for us, Jesse?  [00:19:18] Denial Catholic Confession Math [00:19:18] Jesse Schwamb: I think I got denial, which is maybe a little bit unusual for me. [00:19:21] Tony Arsenal: As long as you're not denying the OPCI think we're fine.  [00:19:23] Jesse Schwamb: No, it's, it's not, it is church related and I, I'll try to keep it short 'cause I think I can make this way longer than it, it probably should be, but lemme think how to phrase this. So, I don't know with a devil negative, I guess when I'm a denying against is maybe not enough confession by your own standard. So the, I'm gonna try to make this so brief. I, I just happened to be out with my wife this afternoon and we had to run errands. We got stuck in traffic and this gave me longer than usual to sit in front of our. Very local and very large Catholic church. So I happen to be looking at their sign. It's a very large congregation. I've been actually been in this one on a couple of occasions for funerals. So not only do I know its size and scope, but again, if you get, if you get on this road at the wrong time on the Lord's day, you're gonna be stuck for a long time because there are so many people that attend. I say that because I noticed on the sign that there were three times for mass on the Lord's Day. So that also says something about the number of people coming through. And then on the sign though, underneath it said for confessions, go to our website. Mm-hmm. So I was like, man, I gotta lick this up because I can't tell if they're telling me I can confess on the website or if it's go to the website for the times. And I said to my wife, only half jokingly, if I can confess online, I'm gonna confess something. So I went to, I went to the website and, and sure enough it was almost disappointingly. It was just the times.  [00:20:45] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:20:46] Jesse Schwamb: Here's what I've found interesting, which just launched me into this like deep rabbit hole. There were three times for confession. Two of those times were just a half an hour, and the third time was an hour. So, uh, what I did was I went through, actually, I think what they had on there was, was three full hours a week. It was a little bit confusing, but I think it was three full hours. Now I think about it. So I went back, I just couldn't help myself, Tony. So I started to think, alright, let's say. I think it's fair to assume  [00:21:15] Tony Arsenal: math, Jesse is kicking in right now. Yes. You're gonna calculate how many minutes per, per person is what you're doing. I'm thinking, ah,  [00:21:22] Jesse Schwamb: yeah, it's something like that. So what I thought was, I don't think it's, uh, I was gonna be conservative. I wanna be fair. I wanna be fair. So, and now we should say like, I think most people realize that the Catholic understanding of confession and the Protestant one is, is very different. The Catholic sacrament of confession is the right through which Catholics are gonna confess their sins to a priest receive absolution, and it's gonna restore the relationship with God in the church. And, and they're gonna believe that the priest acts as a person of Christ and is bound by the seal of confession and an absolute kind of obligation. Uh, of course never to reveal what was disclosed during that process. So, by the way, the website that I went to, lovely instructions. I mean, I was like, wow. I was reading it to my wife who was, uh, not familiar with this at all, and she was like, they can make you do stuff. And I was like, well, yeah. I mean, obviously like there's, there's a portion of this where there's contrition or penant penance. It could be a prayer, it could be act of charity, like all kinds of stuff. So I went back and I thought. I don't think it's unreasonable that there's 350 persons that would say, let's say an average, uh, that would wanna take part of confession. Now, let's say that they did that at, at least monthly, just once a month. And, and I don't know how people's conviction is on that, but I'm gonna say conservatively once a month. Let's say that, and I don't think this is unreasonable, Tony, but you tell me. Let's say you're, you're trucking, you're moving through confession. Let's say it's five minutes a piece. So we're up to 1,750 minutes, uh, per month. That's the demand on the priest because I was, I was looking at this time and I was thinking something is strange here to me, so. That was the demand then, and I'll spare you the other math, which could be very long and un uninteresting. I'm coming up with, you'd need 2.24, two and a quarter priests, which of course you can't have a quarter priests or a quarter person for any reason. So you'd hire, you'd hire three priests, which satisfy the demand if, and the major assumptions here, that is like everybody can't show up at the same time. Obviously, I'm assuming that like everybody has their own time, they're spreading it out. So everybody gets the confession, but it's just five minutes. And I, I have no idea. I mean, if you're a Luther, that's certainly not sufficient time.  [00:23:20] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:23:20] Jesse Schwamb: And you would need three priests. Now here's the thing that I just kind of backed into that, besides like three being like, okay, that, that's, you would need three priests just to satisfy this congregation. If they're confessing for five minutes, once per month. Uh, by the way, if you said, well, half the congregation is going to go weekly, uh, then you, you would double the number of priests you need to 5.98 or six. But here's, here's the bottom line for me. This is why the denial comes in about maybe not enough, is. If you were just to distill that down to like, if you could have one priest cover that time, that there's a demand for like 779.4 hours, or excuse me, minutes of confession, that priest would only be allocating approximately like seven and a half percent of their working hours, their work toward handling confession. This seems like not enough confession given the standards of confession in the Catholic church. And again, I know that I'm, I'm now allocating that to one priest and I just told everybody you need three. That's true. So if you had these three now, if you hired three just to meet the demand, that would only be about like three and a half or a little under three and a half percent of their combined time. So the denial is Catholics, I think, unless I'm way off in some of my assumptions here, you might not be confessing enough by your own standards because  [00:24:33] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:24:34] Jesse Schwamb: Uh, that seems like not enough time.  [00:24:38] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:24:39] Ritual Faithfulness Explained [00:24:39] Tony Arsenal: I mean, I think, um. I don't want to be too bombastic here, but I think,  [00:24:46] Jesse Schwamb: I think I already started this on this  [00:24:48] Tony Arsenal: path. Maybe this, maybe this isn't all that bombastic. Um, because this is so much about ritual and actually I say this is gonna sound really, we, we go, but trying to think from the Roman Catholic perspective, it's actually not, and I'll I'll tell you a brief story, uh, to explain it. Um, a lot of Roman Catholics are just going through the motions. [00:25:13] Jesse Schwamb: That's true.  [00:25:14] Tony Arsenal: But the point, the, the, the point of contention actually is that going through the motions is valuable for the Roman Catholic, right? So I, I knew this, uh, this young woman when I was in college who was a Roman Catholic, and we had many discussions about, about the differences between Protestantism and and Roman Catholicism. And what I came to understand is that going to mass for her. Itself was an act of faith. And so for the Roman Catholic, the concept of, of faith is different than the concept that Protestants operate under. So for the Roman Catholic who, um, goes to mass, even when they feel like they're, like, when they think they're just going through the motions, going through the motions is itself the act of faith. And that's because for most of Roman Catholics, most of Roman Catholicism, faith really equals faithfulness, right? So, so doing the act is the act of faithfulness. Doing the act is faith. Where for the Protestant, like faith is about belief and trust and knowledge. Like it's, it's an. Not entirely intellectual, but it's, it's an inward thing for the Roman Catholic faith is an out is primarily an outward thing. It's what you do, it's how you act. It's faith formed in love. It's faith formed in charity.  [00:26:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right.  [00:26:37] Tony Arsenal: So I think most Roman Catholics going to obligatory confession first. I think once a month is probably like, probably more frequent than most Roman Catholics go to mass or go to confession. Um, I thought I read a stat that it was like every six months is, is pretty average and I think that's what's required by the church maybe even once a year is, is required by the church. Um, I think like most Roman Catholics go into the, the confessional booth and like father forgive me for I've sinned. It's been such and such a number of days since my last confession. Right. And they may bring up a couple particular things that they've done and, and then I think the priest commonly absolves them of all of their sins. Like, almost like in an omnibus fashion and then prescribes their acts of penance, which is it, it like, honestly, it's probably things they should already be doing as a faithful Catholic saying Hail Marys and doing our fathers and acts of charity and things like that. So I think your math is probably right. [00:27:39] Protestant Repentance Particular [00:27:39] Tony Arsenal: I think your, your theory that more confession is probably like, I'm gonna read this from, uh, the Westminster confession, just to, just to say it here, is, this is chapter 15, which is titled of Repentance Under Life. And this is, uh, this is section five or paragraph five. It says, men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but is every man's duty to endeavor, to repent of his particular sins, particularly. And I think that's just such a beautifully phrased sentence like. Not only is it like potent theologically, but like, it just, it just feels good, like in terms of like the English language to repent of your particular sins, particularly. And like the idea is yes, Protestant reform, Christians affirm a general repentance from sin, right? We repent of our sin before the father, uh, as a result of our, of our coming to faith in Christ. And as part of our sanctification, we mortify our sin and we, Viv we are vivified by the spirit and repentance falls in that ongoing sanctification process. And there is this general repentance of like, I repent of the fact that I'm a sinner and that I commit sins, but there is this element in the reformed faith of like, I should be confessing to God. And I think by extension, like we should be confessing to our fellow Christians, our particular sins, our individual sins, and we should be doing that on particular occasion. And I think like. The Luther style confession of like going into the confessor and confessing like every particular sin. Particularly I think most Roman Catholic priests would, priests. Priests would probably have the same reaction Tobits did where he was like, get outta here. Like, come on dude. Like just go live your life and like deal with it. I think that's probably the reaction most Catholic priests would have. But yeah, I think you're right. Like if we're really talking about like. Five, five minutes of confession once a month and that somehow having some sort of spiritual efficacy. I'm not sure I buy that math. Like I think you're, you're probably spot on.  [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:29:47] Confession Hours Oddities [00:29:47] Jesse Schwamb: I just was curious about how many priests would be required and then the allocation of the duties. By the way, you are right. So I, because I had to check on this, the, the fourth letter in council of 1215 does say that the church requires confession of any grave or mortal sins at least once a year. But the church, yeah, strongly encourages more frequent confession as a spiritual practice, even for, of course, like the venial or the less serious sins in their eyes. So yeah, my thought here was just that. I think it's actually undervalued by way of the math. Like the, as the kids say, the math just isn't math thing for me on this one. But I was more curious about, since this is one of the seven sacraments, even if you just said like, well, it should have at least one seven of the allocation. That's like, what? Like something like 14%. And so this is, um, almost half of that. I just found it a little bit, a little bit odd and yeah, I think you'd have to be, uh, so in other words, when I looked at the, basically, here's the bottom line. When I looked at the hours for confession one, there were weird times and uh, two, I was like, that doesn't seem like enough hours. Like, it was just more like that. Like how that's like saying like, Hey, the post office is open three hours a week, and by the way, one of those hours is from seven to eight o'clock on Friday. Like they had some hours. One hour just on Friday was like, I guess that's the way you wanna start your weekend is like, let's get all of this off my chest. Yeah. And, and do it. Right. And the last thing I'll say by the way, is you're correct. When you look at the instruction they give you, and this is common of course, toward the end, when they say like, here's how you like wrap up your part. Actually everybody should go read, go to the local, local Catholic church website and read the instructions. 'cause in some ways they're just interesting and kind of, um, I don't wanna say funny 'cause I'm not making fun. I'm just saying like, they have to give you instruction if you've never done it before. And so most of us are not really probably familiar with the process and they give you explicit instruction and toward the end it's like, here's how you kinda like hang up the call with the priest. And it's like you said, you know, these are my sins and all others, would you be willing to forgive? So you're right. Right. They just kinda wrap them all up because it's sins of omission, sense of commission, it's all to be together. But I, I wonder, you gotta think there's people in there that are like. The priests are like, okay, man, just yeah. Wrap, come on, wrap, wrap it up.  [00:31:55] Confession Timing Talk [00:31:55] Jesse Schwamb: And other people that come in are just like, you know, forgive me father. And uh, lastly to your point, when they give you instruction about how you should start, of course you're always to signify how long it's been since your last confession. Right. Confession. And they say parenthetically, like, reference the days, weeks, months, or years. So you're right. There are gonna be people that probably do it very frequently and probably people who do it infrequently still, I would say I just couldn't believe for a church this large, that there was just three hours a week.  [00:32:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:21] Jesse Schwamb: For everybody else.  [00:32:22] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:32:23] Vance and Papal Authority [00:32:23] Tony Arsenal: This leads me to two very brief sub, uh, denials slash affirmations. Uh, I don't know if you saw this, um, this is not a political statement, right? I, I have lots of feelings and thoughts about the current administration and I think most of my feelings and thoughts would surprise. Everybody. But I thought it was hilarious because JD Vance, who is a Roman Catholic, uh, confessed Roman Catholic part of the Roman Catholic Church, uh, he ha I, I'm not sure if I'm affirming or denying this, there was this funny, uh, funny exchange. I think he was at doing like a, doing like a TPU, I don't know, speech. He was doing a speech at some conservative event and he said something like, I think that the Pope should be more careful when he makes theological statements. I'm wanna be like, do you understand what the pope is in your religion? That was one of my sub denials. Uh, I don't remember what the other one is, so it must not have been that important. It'll come back to me at the worst possible moment and I will try very hard not to interrupt our show for it, but I probably will fail.  [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Yeah.  [00:33:25] Reading Matthew 21 [00:33:25] Jesse Schwamb: Listen, we, we gotta get to some scripture because. We're, we're doing this old school style where we take like half the time and just talk about affirmations. It's true in house. It's true. Which is great fun. But let's, let's get back to Matthew 21. And I, I know we did this last time, but I am gonna rock through the passage 'cause of course, that's the best part of any of our discussion, is actually hearing from, from the Holy Spirit through the scripture, uh, which he's given to us. So this is, uh, Matthew 21, starting in verse 33. And you're gonna hear the, the whole thing right here. Uh, this is Jesus speaking. Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who planted a vineyard and put a wall around it and dug a wine press in it and built a tower and rented it out to vine growers and went on a journey. Now, when the high risk time approached, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit, and the vine growers took his slaves and beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Again, he sent another group of slaves larger than the first, and they did the same thing to them. But afterward he sent his son to them saying they will respect my son. But when the vine growers saw the sun, they said among themselves, this is the heir. Come let us kill him and seize his inheritance, and they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vine growers? They said to him, he will bring those wretches to a wretched end and will rent out the vineyard to other vine growers who will pay him the proceeds at the proper seasons. Jesus said to them, did you ever read in the scriptures the stone, which the builders rejected? This has become the chief cornerstone. This came about from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes. Therefore, I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation producing the fruit of it. And he who falls in the stone will be broken to pieces, but on whomever it falls, it will scatter him like dust. And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they understood that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to seize him, they feared the crowds because they're regarding him to be a prophet. [00:35:28] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah.  [00:35:30] Pharisees Condemn Themselves [00:35:30] Tony Arsenal: This is like a super heavy parable. Right. And we talked a lot last week about how like the point of this parable is not necessarily to try to instruct the Pharisees or the Sadducees. Like it's not to instruct the people who were going to reject Christ, uh, the, the builders who would reject the cornerstone. It's really a parable to teach those. Who are observing this process happening. But I think it's, I, I think it's really interesting just listening to you read this and reading through it, and I guess this is a question I haven't asked and I, I need to study a little bit more. It's crazy to me in verse 41, um, Christ seems the, the, the, um, Matthew seems to say here, and maybe I need to do a little bit more Greek study, so bear with me and, and have grace if I'm wrong here. Matthew seems to say that like Christ asks the people he's speaking to, the Pharisees he's speaking to, what is he gonna do to these people? And the Pharisees answer, he's gonna put those wretches to a miserable death.  [00:36:36] Jesse Schwamb: Right?  [00:36:37] Tony Arsenal: Like the people listening to this parable understand the outcome, like they understand the. The consequence that the, the, the vineyard owner or the vineyard tenant tenants are facing based on their lack of faithfulness to the covenant. To me, that is like a really striking part of this parable. And, and it's not even like the parable proper, but like the striking element of the context of this is that nobody listening to this parable, including the Pharisees that this parable has basically spoken against, nobody fails to see the gravity of the consequence of rejecting God's emissary, like rejecting the Messiah. That to me is like a really, I dunno, paradigmatic. Portion of this that I think we need to grapple with. This is not an unclear, an unclear outcome. This is not, this is not masked or vague or OPA opaque. Like everybody understands, the people who reject the Messiah are going to face dire and eternal consequences for that act. [00:37:48] Jesse Schwamb: That does make this really interesting, doesn't it? Because it's not just entirely like Romans one adventures or even Romans two. It's that this is what Jesus does and he does it in a profound way that's not trickery like I think kinda like you're saying like the lead up to this isn't as if he's even leading the witness. He's making it very clear, all like the parameters of the story and the characters involved and what should be the proper judgment. And it's not as if like they start saying, they're like, oh, we shouldn't say anything more like we, we plead the fifth because it's gonna condemn ourselves. He draws his audience in to producing and pronouncing like their own sentence. It's very much like, I think I mentioned this last time, the prophet Nathan and David, isn't it? It's the exact same. Yeah. And the verdict is unanswerable, like even in its own terms. These other, like these other vine growers, prefigures of course like the inclusion of the Gentiles and the apostolic office. But I like that what Jesus does here, even before he gets to that point, is he extorts from them an acknowledgement of the punishment which awaited them. And so in this way there's like, I think the Puritans use this passage a lot actually to demonstrate that the natural conscience even of like the unregenerate, still bears witness to divine justice. That's Romans two. Like they, they can't get out from underneath it and Jesus isn't using any trickery on them to get them to say this thing. They are compelled in their own way, even being unregenerate to, like you said, even as they're rejecting the Messiah to recognize that punishment is due these characters in the story, even as they perceive at the end that they are those characters. [00:39:21] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:22] Jesse Schwamb: Saying we'll receive the judgment.  [00:39:24] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:39:25] Usurpers Not Misguided [00:39:25] Tony Arsenal: And I think too, like, um, this is kind of one of those chicken or the egg scenarios, right? Like Christ is both recognizing the intention of their heart as well as prophesying. And, and not just prophesying, but like inception level prophesying the, the outcome of the intention of their heart. And so like, again, like we've, we spent a whole week kind of like leading into the parable and now we spent a whole week, we're gonna spend a whole week again kind of leading into the parable. This is such a deep parable, and that like Christ is not just laying bare. The fact that the, the people who were going to reject him were doing so out of this sort of like attempt and intention of usurping the kingdom of God for their own purposes. I think that brings a layer to this that we don't often appreciate in. Christ's interaction with the Pharisees. I think sometimes, and maybe this is because I just listened to an episode of where Matt Whitman on the 10 minute Bible hour talked about this. I think sometimes we actually have a tendency to sort of be sympathetic to the Pharisees where we think, you know, they were, they were just trying to obey God's law and they got a little sideways on it and you know, they were putting these boundaries in place, but they were doing it in this sort of like misguided attempt to protect the people. Christ actually here seems to contradict that in that the comparison he's making is not to a, a well-intentioned group of people who just get it wrong, but he's painting the Pharisees, the, the religious leaders, the Sadducees, the chief priests. He's painting them as these usurpers who recognize the proper authority of right. The master and his emissaries and ultimately of his son, they recognize this proper authority and rather than submitting to it and submitting to the covenant obligations that they, they already actually agreed to, instead of doing that, they're going to reject that authority and try to take it for their own right. It's not just that they do the wrong thing, it's that they recognize the heir, which is Christ. They recognize this heir and they kill him to try to take his place. That is a really heavy element of this parable. Christ is not painting. Um, the, the, the Pharisees here, the, the religious leaders. He's not painting them as um, well-intentioned, but ultimately wrong, which is I think a lot of times, and I think there's reason to do this right. I'm not being overly critical and I've done this, I've actually done this myself, and I think there's some. Space for it. Like the Pharisees were wrong, but they were wrong, kind of in the right direction sometimes. Um, Christ is not really on board with that, at least in this parable. Right. This isn't about them thinking that the heir was a threat, and so killing the threat in, you know, inadvertently this is them absolutely seeing who the hair, who the heir is, and intentionally deciding to reject that heir and to murder him and to try to take his inheritance. Mm-hmm. That's an affront to not only the heir who they murder, but an affront to the owner of the vineyard himself, which of course in this parable is figured to be God the father primarily. But God in sort of general terms, like the whole Godhead, um, with Christ as the second Adam has, as his representative, as his heir. This is a really heavy parable and I think where this comes into play for us in our own Christian life is. Are there times where we. Sort of do the same thing in refusing to, maybe it's tie into your denial a little bit. Like refusing to acknowledge our own sinfulness, refusing to acknowledge the ways that God has provided for us. Um, do we at times look at what we have and lay claim to it as though it is our own inheritance that we've taken? Um, right. Do we kind of crucify the son of God anew in, in refusing to repent of our sins particularly? I dunno. I think those are some open questions for us to kind of explore as we dig into this a bit more. [00:43:54] Jesse Schwamb: And that may relate as well to, well eventually at some point, I dunno, like 2040, get to like the parable of the talents. There's some similarity there with a little bit, right? You're saying? I think you're right.  [00:44:06] God Does All the Verbs [00:44:06] Jesse Schwamb: And where I think we can anchor some of that is in those first couple of verses. I'm really always impressed by really the number of action verbs that are packed within, like that just initial statement of Jesus explaining the situation. [00:44:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:44:19] Jesse Schwamb: So he sets it all up and he's saying there's a planting that goes on, this landowner puts up a wall, digs a wine press. Builds a tower and then RINs it. So there's all these like amazing things being done, all this action verb. And I, I think in part why he comes against the Pharisees so hard in the same way that we're looking at like the parable that, uh, the, uh, talents for instance of saying like, what did you do with that was entrusted to you was like this great treasure which Christ has entrusted or God has entrusted to his people, which is, is the gospel essentially is, is all a prophetic witness, is like the truth of who God is and his revelation of himself. And so I think. The first thing we gotta see in those verbs is that there's this emphasis that the vineyard was God's sovereign creation. You know, he plants it, he chose it, he established it. Israel didn't plant herself. She was planted. And that sovereign initiative is foundational, I think in, like you're saying, the parables indictment, because these vine growers, they don't possess anything that they did not receive. Right. You know, they did not find a vineyard already planted, but God himself made it from the wilderness that all his glory, all the glory might be his. So. I think it's helpful for us to observe that the church is always the planting of the Lord and that no congregation flourishes that is not first planted by God. And so there is a major offense here when those who are to care for it, who know, like you're saying, that they ought to care for it, who understand something about the hierarchy and the way it has been entrusted to them. Not to only break that covenant, but then seek to try to usurp the power in the roles of those whom they should be, quite frankly, in our own language, like under shepherds too. And so it starts with all, all those verbs. Like I think we could probably spend a. A lot of times just speaking about what does it mean? Why? Why is there all this explicit in particular language about the fact that there's a hedge and there's a press besides just these are part in piece mail or part and parcel of what it means to have a vineyard, apparently, but that they're all part of this narrative of God talking about how he protects and cares for his people and sets them in a place and chooses them and is particular about the construction and does so with great volition and authority and care and concern and creative ability. And then again, you have those who are meant there to do the very job that he's entrusted them with. And not only are they not doing that, and of course you're right. Jesus elsewhere, comes in, comes in hot, right, with a Pharisees saying like, listen, you set burdens on people's backs that you yourselves cannot lift. You're twice as in the hell as anybody else, and that's who you are. Yeah. It's not just hypocrisy, but you're literally setting people up to fail in this. So you can see how you're right. It's not just like, guys, I appreciate that. Like you wanted to set up some additional boundaries and maybe you took it a little bit too far. This parable is just scorched earth. It's, it's nuclear. Yeah.  [00:47:10] Tony Arsenal: Yeah.  [00:47:11] Scandalous Vineyard Setup [00:47:11] Tony Arsenal: And you know, I think, um, we are obviously gonna spend another week on this 'cause we still have not really addressed a single verse in this parable. I, I think like a lot of ink has been spilled on explaining sort of like the feal agricultural arrangements of this passage. What it represents. M my understanding is. A typical arrangement would be that a, a landowner would basically just lease out land and the tenants would be responsible for the planting, for the development. Right. And the, the, the landowner would essentially just collect a portion of whatever they produce. Right. This parable is actually taking this a step further. Exactly. That it's not as though the landowner just says like, all right, you can use this land. Right. And I own the land, so I get a portion of the pro, the profit. He's actually done all the work. Yes. And all that. The, all that the, the tenants need to do essentially is reap the harvest and then provide the portion of the harvest that belongs to the landowner, and so there is a greater investment. Of the landowner into this land than would be expected. We've commented in the past about how a lot of times the, the parables start on sort of a premise of shock. Like there's a, there's an element of the setup of the, of the parable where the audience would kind of like sit back and gasp or kind of be like, wait a second. Like that's not normal. Right. In the parable of the, the, um, lost son, it was the idea that like the son demanded his inheritance. And that wasn't the shocking part. The shocking part was that the father just granted it. Right. Or, um, the lost sheep, like the, there's actually a sort of a shocking element to the fact that like the, the land, the like sheep owner would just go get this other sheep. So we've, we've commented on there's kind of like. There's sort of like a scandalous setup. The scandalous setup in this is not that the land has been leased to tenants, right? It's that the land has been prepared for the tenants before it was leased out in the first place. And I think that's something we might miss if we read over this too quickly, is. The landowner has prepared everything for these, these tenants.  [00:49:30] Jesse Schwamb: That's right.  [00:49:31] Tony Arsenal: So the, the, at the, the punchline of the parable where they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty of, um, sovereignty and maybe a lowercase s in the, in the context of the parable, they refuse to acknowledge the sovereignty and the rightful claim of the tenant or of the landowner on the, the profit of the land. And sort of like highlighter emphasized by the fact that they actually didn't do any of the work. There's a certain kind of like Amer, like American rugged individualism where we're kind of like, yeah, like if I planted all the crops, then it's kind of lame that this guy's coming in expecting to take a portion of it, right? Like, yeah, I guess he owns the land, so maybe he gets a little piece of it, but like, who does he think he is? All of that already is already short circuited. Like I. The, these tenants are not actually, um, portrayed as doing anything in this parable. That's right. Like they just lease the land. They, they, um, and leased is not really like the right. The right word, the, the Greek word is omi, which is like he gave over the land to them. Um, when we say leased, we have this idea that like the tenants pay to use the land and then like part of their contract is that whatever profits they reap, uh, off the land goes back to the, to the landowner. This is really more like the landowner graciously allowed them to live on this land, and the only payment he required was that they would eventually provide him part of the profit back. Like he's planted the land, he's put up the fence around it. He dug the wine press so that they could make a product out of it. He built the tower so it would be defended. Yes. And he gave it over to them essentially just to like live on until it was time for the harvest. And all he is asking for is basically like, alright, so this is my land. I've planted the vineyards, the profit is mine to have. And so when the time came for him to come claim that that's where they have now rejected him. Yes. That's where they've now said like, I know you did all the work and really graciously allowed us to live in this land, but we're gonna keep all of it for ourselves. That's the scandal of this. That's what I think like the original audience would've set up and like, wait a second here. Like, hold on. They didn't even plant the vineyards themselves. They didn't even build the tower themselves. That's really the force of this that I think we miss when we, when we overemphasize, trying to think through like what the original agricultural arrangements were. 'cause this is painted. Very different than what the original arrangements would've been typical for. Like this is a different scenario and I think intentionally so,  [00:52:09] Jesse Schwamb: and we need those words like rented, at least in English, to help us understand that it didn't belong to them. It wasn't a gift, right? It wasn't as if like it was just turned over in the sense that it belongs to you now do with it what you will. And it's very clear in the passage one, like you said, that the landowner does all those things. So it was a, you know, he completely set it up. I mean, this is just such a beautiful, I think, depiction of the hold of prophetic, you know, understanding of God's word here, but it's very clear that says the, he sent his slaves to the vine growers to receive his fruit. So you're right. The scandal is that they're like, well, obviously. They need to give him his fruits, like  [00:52:48] Tony Arsenal: right.  [00:52:48] Jesse Schwamb: It was all set up before he left on this long journey. He then turned it over to them to care for, and that was really all that they were supposed to do. They had no role in this. And so it does like lead us in into this weird space where it's like, well, well what, what did the Pharisees think they were trying to do themselves? What does actually Jesus commenting on, on their own, like licit on their own initiative here, is he basically saying that not only are they not respecting his sovereignty, but they were trying to claim for themselves what only rightly belongs to God that even their position right. Society in culture as their representatives, God himself, they wanted to take that over for themselves, which he does bring that condemnation upon them in other parts of the scripture. So again, this is really hot. I think it's a, it's both heat and light, but there's no doubt that there's fire to this, right? Because it's a direct indictment that God the father set all of this up. You yourselves are on rented property, but guess what? Even the property that you've rented, I'm not exacting a tax from you as if like you have put forward and grown or supplied or created some kind of profitable outcome here. And I just want a piece of that. He's not even talking about tithing in that sense. What he's basically saying is, none of this belongs to you. Like how? Right? How dare you? None of this is yours. I set all of this up and in fact, because you've done so poor poorly at this, I'm gonna take it away from you and give it to those who actually produce fruit and guess what's gonna be the Gentiles? So it's, there's a wild. Amounts of condemnation packed into a very small story.  [00:54:19] Tony Arsenal: Yeah. Yeah. It really is.  [00:54:22] Tenants Add Nothing [00:54:22] Tony Arsenal: Um, there is nothing expected of these tenants. Right. There's no contract, like there's no terms, they, they really add nothing to the, the landowner's land, except I guess maybe they're the ones harvesting these, this fruit. Right. But even that's not explicit in the parable.  [00:54:43] Jesse Schwamb: Exactly.  [00:54:43] Tony Arsenal: Right. Right. He, he does all just to steal your thunder, like he does all the verbs. Yes. All of the ves are done by the landowner.  [00:54:50] Jesse Schwamb: Yes. Right  [00:54:51] Tony Arsenal: on. There is an implication that the, the tenants are somehow like the ones harvesting this, or they're the ones producing the wine, I guess, in the wine vat or the wine press. But at the end of the day. A normal tenant landowner agreement would be, I'm, you're, first of all, you're probably gonna pay me to use this land, right? You're paying me to use this land, and the way you pay me is you're gonna plant the, the gr the crop. You're gonna harvest it. You're gonna make the produce, and all I'm gonna do is let you live on this land. I'm gonna take the pro, like the profit, you're gonna pay me outta that profit. There is nothing asked or expected of these, th

Michael welcomes CCEF faculty member and counselor Mike Emlet, who has served at CCEF since 2001 and previously trained and worked in family medicine before attending Westminster Seminary. Emlet and the Michael discuss how mental health concerns have grown in prominence in the church, influenced by factors like the pandemic and social media, and why a biblical approach must be holistic, recognizing humans as embodied souls affected by the fall in both body and heart. They warn against extremes of over-spiritualizing mental illness or reducing it to biology, and they challenge the church's tendency to abdicate care to outside experts while affirming the need for professional help in severe cases. Emlet commends a hopeful yet humble posture, careful listening beyond diagnostic labels, and using the “saint, sufferer, sinner” framework to move toward and care for people.00:00 Podcast Welcome01:00 Meet Mike Emlet02:55 Mental Health Landscape05:46 Embodied Souls Balance08:42 Church Role in Care10:46 Hopeful Humble Posture12:57 Saint Sufferer Sinner14:34 Why He Wrote It16:44 Meeting Suffering First19:41 Listen and Move Toward21:22 Closing ThanksEpisode MentionsCCEF Saints, Sufferers, Sinners: Loving Others as God Loves Us 

In this episode, Paul Woo recounts how his academic path converged with his personal theological journey. Though initially trained in seventeenth-century theology, his long-standing passion for Presbyterian history led him to accept an unexpected invitation to pursue doctoral research on John Murray. Murray's influence, was first felt in reading Murray on Romans 6. Definitive sanctification gave him new categories for understanding the Christian struggle against sin as a battle fought from union with Christ, where Scripture's imperatives rest on real spiritual power rather than desperation. That spiritual and theological foundation made the doctoral opportunity compelling. Surveying Murray's lecture notes on the Westminster Standards revealed a meticulous historical theologian, overturning the common assumption that Murray was only a precise biblical exegete rather than a scholar deeply engaged with primary historical sources. Paul then outlines his emerging dissertation project, provisionally titled John Murray the Westminsterian, which will explore how Murray's Scottish Presbyterian heritage and confessional commitments shaped his theology, and how in turn he helped shape Westminster Seminary and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church through his work on the denomination's confession. The conversation widens to his recent research on Trinitarian doctrine at the Westminster Assembly, particularly debates over the Son's aseity and Calvin's doctrine of autotheos, showing how historical dogmatics and confessional theology intersect in his work. He also discusses his editorial research for P&R Publishing's Warfield reprints, describing the painstaking but rewarding labor of tracing Warfield's vast multilingual sources, and reflecting on how modern digital access has transformed historical scholarship. The episode closes with reflections on Murray's enduring legacy as both scholar and pastor, his reputation for prayer and piety, and recommendations for readers approaching Murray for the first time (especially his sermons and Redemption Accomplished and Applied) as an entry point into a theology where rigorous exegesis, historical consciousness, and lived communion with Christ remain inseparable. If you enjoy this episode, you can access tons of content just like this at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wm.wts.edu⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. If you would like to join us in our mission to train specialists in the bible to proclaim the whole counsel of God for Christ and his global church, visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠wts.edu/donate⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Thanks for listening!

Buy your copy of King of Kings: A Reformed Guide to Christian Government by James Baird now!! It was our pleasure to interview James Baird. He is Pastor of Christian Education at Covenant Church of Naples (PCA). A graduate of Covenant College, Westminster Seminary, and Union School of Theology, he previously served at Westminster Seminary and Ligonier Ministries.  We discuss his new book and why he agrues that the civil government should promote Christianity as the true religion.  We are giving away books for this one! If you share this podcast and tag us on X https://x.com/RestlesPod  You could win one. If you are a civil magistrate and would like one- please reach out to us. Or sign up for our patreon and you could win one of the copies we will give away there.  Join our patreon HERE for more with James and BONUS episodes every week! You can follow this podcast all over the internet. twitter,   instagram.    or facebook Or email us at restlesspodcasting@gmail.com

Phil Henry is the pastor of Mercy Hill Presbyterian Church (PCA) in Glassboro, NJ, which he was called to start by the New Jersey Presbytery in 2009. He was ordained in 2000 and holds a Master of Divinity degree from Westminster Seminary in California and a Master of Theology degree from Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. Phil and his wife, Polly, have six grown children.

About the Guest(s):Michael Beatty is a pastor at Community Baptist Church located in Fargo, North Dakota. With a rich history of involvement in Reformed Baptist circles, Michael has been associated with churches formerly part of ARPA, now CBA. After departing ARBA, Michael has been focused on ecclesiastical independence. He pursued theological studies at Westminster Seminary in California and is leading a new initiative, the 3535 Foundation, aimed at enhancing church growth and understanding through a variety of initiatives including scholarships, missions, republication of classic texts, and conferences.Episode Summary:In this engaging episode of RenewalCast, hosts Colt Robinson and Jay Wiff welcome Michael Beatty, a dedicated pastor and theologian, who introduces listeners to the 3535 Foundation based in North Dakota. This episode delves deeply into ecclesiology and its significance for church foundation and growth, providing both historical and contemporary insights. Michael shares his journey through the Reformed Baptists movement, his educational pursuits, and the motivations behind establishing the 3535 Foundation.Throughout the discussion, Michael enumerates the multiple initiatives of the 3535 Foundation, focusing on four primary areas: the provision of scholarships for men interested in church ministry, supporting mission work and church planting, republishing primary ecclesiastical resources, and organizing annual conferences. This episode sheds light on the potential impact of such endeavors on enhancing church activities and promoting theological education, particularly amidst challenges like those observed during the COVID-19 pandemic. It highlights the importance of ecclesiology with respect to church governance and individual believers' roles within the broader framework of faith.Key Takeaways:The 3535 Foundation is dedicated to bolstering ecclesiastical work through educating and resourcing churches.The foundation separates church duties from other organizational acts to maintain focus on core spiritual responsibilities.Michael stresses the importance of ecclesiology as a means to deliver Christ's blessings through church functions and governance.The COVID-19 pandemic challenged churches to rethink the intertwining of government regulations and church autonomy.The episode underlines how historical creeds like the 1689 Confession of Faith guide churches in aligning with theological soundness.Notable Quotes:"All the benefits that we really see that Jesus gives to Christians all flow through the church.""The foundation is there to empower local churches to make decisions that are good for them.""We were doing a number of these missions works…ultimately, the church is called elders to teach and preach.""One of the things that sets us apart…is trying to have more reader helps in the volumes.""There's a lot of important institutions…but ultimately none of those make it into the new heaven and the new earth."Resources:3535 Foundation: [Learn more about their initiatives and how to get involved](website URL not provided in the transcript).Westminster Seminary California: Michael Beatty's educational institution.Community Baptist Church: The church where Michael Beatty serves as pastor.Historical Confessions: References to Savoy Declaration, Westminster Confession of Faith, and the 1689 Baptist Confession.Theology for Breakfast with Pat Abendroth: Reference to a theological discussion group attended by Michael.Tune in to this episode to explore how the 3535 Foundation seeks to fortify church practice and faith through strategic initiatives. Stay informed and inspired by subscribing to RenewalCast for more insightful theological discussions.

What if you could redefine your identity beyond titles and roles? How do you know which path to take when you come upon a fork in the road along life's journey? Join us, as we explore these profound questions with our remarkably wise guest, Dave Schutter. From Military to Ministry - Dave Schutter's Wisdom Journey Our special guest Dave Schutter had his sights set on a military career, dreaming of an appointment to West Point. But God had a different plan for his life. From his dreams of West Point to a transformative mission trip to Albania, Dave's journey is a testament to adaptability, faith and finding purpose. Together, we unravel the intricate balance of separating who we are from what we do, sharing experiences from his time as a military chaplain in Afghanistan and his work in pastoral ministry. It's an engaging conversation steeped in life's simple joys and the wisdom found in unexpected places.   More about Pastor Dave Schutter Dave is a military veteran, a pastor and a pizza aficionado. Born and raised in Cleveland, Ohio, as the son of a military man, Dave dreamed of attending West Point, but a sports injury prevented him from passing the fitness entrance exam. He didn't give up on that dream and years later Dave qualified for that appointment to the US Military Academy at West Point. But he turned down that opportunity in favor of something different.   Today, Dave leads the congregation at Northwest Presbyterian Church as Senior Pastor. Notably in Dave's life, he served as a military Chaplain in the US Army, including an active deployment in Afghanistan. That tour of duty earned him the prestigious Bronze Star.   Dave Schutter graduated with a Master of Divinity degree from Covenant Theological Seminary in 1997 and earned a Master of Theology degree from Westminster Seminary in 2017. He completed his undergraduate studies at Miami (Ohio) University in 1993. Dave is also a contributor to the Jonathan Edwards Encyclopedia (Eerdmans, Fall 2017) and the Jonathan Edwards Global Sermon Editing Project.   Dave, his wife Kim, and their three children live in the Columbus Ohio area.   Resources Connect with Dave on LinkedIn Link to website for Dave's church - Northwest Presbyterian Church   Credits Editor + Technical Advisor Bob Hotchkiss Brand + Strategy Advisor Andy Malinoski PR + Partnerships Advisor Rachel Bell Marketing, Social Media and Graphic Design Chloe Lineberg   Stay Connected with Us on Social YouTube @themainthingpod Twitter @themainthingpod Instagram @themainthingpod Facebook  @TheMainThingPod LinkedIn   Help Support and Sustain This Podcast Become a subscriber. Share the podcast with one or two friends. Follow us on social media @TheMainThingPod Buy some Main Thing Merch from our Merchandise Store. Buy a book from our curated wisdom collection on bookshop.org. Become a patron and support us on Patreon with funding.   Episode Chapters [0:03:48] - Skip and Dave pontificate on their shared love of pizza [0:05:48] - Dave's family military legacy; dreams of West Point [0:07:11] - How Skip and Dave are connected [0:08:50] - Dave shares his main thing [0:10:17] - Identity; Solid advice from a mentor in South Dakota [0:14:16] - Pain points, feelings of shame and wondering if we are enough [0:18:39] - A pivotal trip to Albania [0:21:10] - Dave shares a final thought ###

In this special episode of Christ the Center, we commemorate the 300th anniversary of the Reformed Church in the United States (RCUS) with special guests Dr. Maynard Koerner and Wayne Johnson. Dr. Koerner and Mr. Johnson take us on a historical journey through the origins, theological developments, and challenges that have shaped the RCUS over the past three centuries. From the church's humble beginnings in colonial Pennsylvania, through the Mercersburg controversy, to the influx of Volga German immigrants, we explore how the RCUS has maintained a steadfast commitment to confessional Reformed theology. We also discuss the upcoming tricentennial celebration in Rapid City, South Dakota, and reflect on the church's present and future, its global mission work, and its deep connections with other Reformed bodies, including the OPC and Westminster Seminary. Wayne Johnson is the Provost of City Seminary of Sacramento. He served as the editor of Leben Magazine from 2008–2018 and retired as CEO of Gateway Media in 2019. He has a BA in European History from Purdue University. Dr. Maynard Koerner is President of Heidelberg Theological Seminary and Associate Pastor of Trinity RCUS in Sioux Falls. Watch on YouTube and Vimeo. Chapters 0:07 Introduction 3:32 The Tricentennial Celebration 4:50 The Colonial Era 11:06 Ecclesiastical Ties and Ministerial Training 20:07 Organization in 1747 28:23 The Mercersburg Controversy 38:46 The Volga/Black Sea German Immigration 42:31 The 1934 Merger 52:25 The RCUS Today 1:02:16 Conclusion Participants: Camden Bucey, Maynard Koerner, Wayne Johnson

In this special episode of Christ the Center, we commemorate the 300th anniversary of the Reformed Church in the United States (RCUS) with special guests Dr. Maynard Koerner and Wayne Johnson. Dr. Koerner and Mr. Johnson take us on a historical journey through the origins, theological developments, and challenges that have shaped the RCUS over the past three centuries. From the church's humble beginnings in colonial Pennsylvania, through the Mercersburg controversy, to the influx of Volga German immigrants, we explore how the RCUS has maintained a steadfast commitment to confessional Reformed theology. We also discuss the upcoming tricentennial celebration in Rapid City, South Dakota, and reflect on the church's present and future, its global mission work, and its deep connections with other Reformed bodies, including the OPC and Westminster Seminary. Wayne Johnson is the Provost of City Seminary of Sacramento. He served as the editor of Leben Magazine from 2008–2018 and retired as CEO of Gateway Media in 2019. He has a BA in European History from Purdue University. Dr. Maynard Koerner is the President of Heidelberg Theological Seminary and Associate Pastor of Trinity RCUS in Sioux Falls. Chapters 00:07 Introduction 03:32 The Tricentennial Celebration 04:50 The Colonial Era 11:06 Ecclesiastical Ties and Ministerial Training 20:07 Organization in 1747 28:23 The Mercersburg Controversy 38:46 The Volga/Black Sea German Immigration 42:31 The 1934 Merger 52:25 The RCUS Today 1:02:16 Conclusion

In this episode, we explore the biblical and historical foundations of Presbyterian church government through the lens of the three-office view—minister, ruling elder, and deacon. Joining us are two distinguished guests: Mark R. Brown, editor of and contributor to Order in the Offices, and Greg Reynolds, contributor to the volume. Together, we discuss the scriptural and theological arguments for distinguishing the minister of the Word from the ruling elder, why this distinction matters for the health of the church, and the modern challenges facing Presbyterian polity. Brown shares insights from his decades-long defense of the three-office view, while Reynolds unpacks his essay, “Democracy and the Denigration of Office,” explaining how cultural influences have shaped and distorted church governance. Whether you’re a church officer, seminarian, or simply interested in Reformed ecclesiology, this conversation offers a compelling case for recovering the historic Presbyterian model of church leadership. Mark R. Brown is a minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. He is a graduate of Geneva College and Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. After completing his seminary education in 1977, he planted Westminster Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania, where he faithfully served as pastor for forty years until his retirement in 2017. Greg Reynolds is a minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church who has served as a church planter and pastor in both New York and New Hampshire. Before entering the ministry, he worked in the field of architecture. In addition to his pastoral work, he is the editor of Ordained Servant: A Journal for Church Officers, where he has contributed numerous essays on ecclesiology and pastoral ministry. Reynolds is the author of The Word Is Worth a Thousand Pictures: Preaching in the Electronic Age, which explores the impact of media on preaching and worship. His academic background includes studies at the Boston Architectural College, the L'Abri Fellowship, Covenant College (BA, 1975), Westminster Theological Seminary (MDiv, 1979), and Westminster Seminary in California (DMin, 2001)​. Use coupon code order25 to save 25% on the book at our website. The coupon is good for one week, from March 21–28, 2025. You may also purchase the book from our partner booksellers: Reformation Heritage Books Canon and Creed Reformed Books Reformed Book Services (our Canadian bookseller) Watch on YouTube and Vimeo. Chapters 00:00:07 Introduction 00:04:28 The Story of the First Edition of Order in the Offices 00:14:24 Influential Theologians on the Topic 00:22:44 Misunderstandings about the Offices 00:29:31 The New Testament Terms for Ministers and Elders 00:32:57 Cultural Influences against Presbyterian Government 00:42:58 The Forgotten Thomas Smyth 00:52:31 Teaching and Implementing a Three-Office View 00:58:52 Final Comments 01:01:44 Conclusion Participants: Camden Bucey, Greg Reynolds, Mark R. Brown

In this episode, we explore the biblical and historical foundations of Presbyterian church government through the lens of the three-office view—minister, ruling elder, and deacon. Joining us are two distinguished guests: Mark R. Brown, editor of Order in the Offices, and Gregory Edward Reynolds, contributor to the volume and editor of Ordained Servant: A Journal for Church Officers. Together, we discuss the scriptural and theological arguments for distinguishing the minister of the Word from the ruling elder, why this distinction matters for the health of the church, and the modern challenges facing Presbyterian polity. Brown shares insights from his decades-long defense of the three-office view, while Reynolds unpacks his essay, "Democracy and the Denigration of Office," explaining how cultural influences have shaped and distorted church governance. Whether you're a church officer, seminarian, or simply interested in Reformed ecclesiology, this conversation offers a compelling case for recovering the historic Presbyterian model of church leadership. Mark R. Brown is a minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. He is a graduate of Geneva College and Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia. After completing his seminary education in 1977, he planted Westminster Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Hollidaysburg, Pennsylvania, where he faithfully served as pastor for forty years until his retirement in 2017. Greg Reynolds is a minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church who has served as a church planter and pastor in both New York and New Hampshire. Before entering the ministry, he worked in the field of architecture. In addition to his pastoral work, he is the editor of Ordained Servant: A Journal for Church Officers, where he has contributed numerous essays on ecclesiology and pastoral ministry. Reynolds is the author of The Word Is Worth a Thousand Pictures: Preaching in the Electronic Age, which explores the impact of media on preaching and worship. His academic background includes studies at the Boston Architectural College, the L'Abri Fellowship, Covenant College (BA, 1975), Westminster Theological Seminary (MDiv, 1979), and Westminster Seminary in California (DMin, 2001)​. This is Christ the Center episode 899 (https://www.reformedforum.org/ctc899)

Stafford Carson has been associated with Westminster Seminary for nearly half of its existence. He has also had a rather prolific preaching ministry with experience in proclaiming the Word of God in many diverse contexts. Dr. Nate Shannon sits down with Stafford to discuss a range of topics including not just how to preach well but how to listen to preaching well.

Support the show!! - https://www.patreon.com/chasedavisGo to ionlayer.com and use code FPT to get $100 off your first kit. “Going Back to Find the Way Forward” - https://amzn.to/3W3WsQ4Mike on X - https://x.com/mdvirgilioMike's Website - https://mikedvirgilio.com/Video - https://youtu.be/xBMXww3kSIISummaryIn this episode, Chase Davis interviews Mike D'Virgilio, who shares his journey from a Catholic upbringing to becoming an author and apologist. He discusses the influence of apologetics on his faith, his views on Trump and the conservative movement, and the importance of agency and action in effecting change. The conversation also touches on the evolution of conservative leaders, reflections on his time at Westminster Seminary, and the role of media narratives in shaping public perception. D'Virgilio emphasizes the significance of truth in politics and the emergence of 'reality respectors' in today's society. In this conversation, Mike D'Virgilio and Chase Davis explore the themes of belief in God, the role of apologetics in modern Christianity, generational perspectives between boomers and millennials, and the concept of a great awakening in society. They discuss the challenges of secularism, the importance of questioning narratives, and the potential for spiritual revival in contemporary culture. The dialogue emphasizes the need for open conversations across generations and the significance of understanding historical contexts in shaping current beliefs.Support the showSign up for the Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/chasedavisFollow Full Proof Theology on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/fullprooftheology/Follow Full Proof Theology on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/fullprooftheology/

The incarnation is the central event of our faith, making possible the consummation of the New Covenant in the saving death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is utterly unique, and, as made clear in this week's first piece, utterly incongruous with anything else in history, or in our experience. It is, then, to be an object of our contemplation and a stimulus to our worship of the Triune God: Father, Spirit, and incarnate Son.   Featured Content: – 'An Incongruous Incarnation', Peter Sanlon, Banner of Truth Magazine, Issue 675 (December 2019). – Excerpt from Sinclair B. Ferguson and Derek Thomas, 'Icthus: Jesus Christ, God's Son, the Saviour', (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 2015).     About the Contributors: Peter Sanlon has served as a minister in Tunbridge Wells since 2013.  In previous years he has taught at Union School of Theology and Oak Hill Theological College. Today he trains presbyterian ministers via Westminster Seminary. His published books include 'Simply God' (IVP) and 'Augustine's Theology of Preaching' (Fortress). Sinclair Ferguson has authored several books published by the Trust, of which he is a trustee, and a former editor. He retains his position as Professor of Systematic Theology at Redeemer Seminary, Dallas, Texas, and serves as a Teaching Fellow with Ligonier Ministries. He continues to preach God's Word in churches and at conferences. Derek Thomas, a native of Wales, is the Chancellor's Professor of Systematic and Pastoral Theology at Reformed Theological Seminary and also serves as Senior Minister at First Presbyterian Church (ARP) in Columbia, South Carolina.   Buy Ichthus: Jesus Christ, God's Son, the Saviour: https://banneroftruth.org/store/christian-living/ichthus/   Explore the work of the Banner of Truth: www.banneroftruth.org Subscribe to the Magazine (print/digital/both): www.banneroftruth.org/magazine Leave us a voice message: www.speakpipe.com/magazinepodcast

Danny Olinger, John Muether, Darryl Hart, and Camden Bucey explore the life and legacy of J. Gresham Machen, discussing Richard E. Burnett's provocative book, Machen's Hope: The Transformation of a Modernist in the New Princeton. Burnett seeks to reframe Machen as both modern and orthodox, portraying him as a "conservative modernist" who employed modern intellectual methods while remaining firmly committed to Reformed theology. This episode critically examines Burnett's thesis and evaluates its contribution to understanding Machen's theological and historical significance. While Burnett rightly highlights Machen's struggles in Germany and at Princeton, the panel critiques his use of terms like "modern" and "modernist," noting they often diverge from Machen's own vocabulary and theological focus. They emphasize that even the younger Machen remained theologically orthodox and discerning of heterodoxy, as seen in his critiques of figures like his professor Wilhelm Herrmann. Furthermore, the panel questions Burnett's emphasis on Machen's early crises over his later, defining contributions—such as founding Westminster Seminary and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church—arguing that this framing risks downplaying Machen's lifelong theological battle against liberalism, which he saw as denying God's direct intervention in history and thus undermining the gospel. This episode sheds light on Machen's enduring legacy and his vital contributions to Reformed orthodoxy. Overall, the panelists contend that Machen's hope was centered on God's supernatural action in history, a hope Machen famously summarized in his final words: "So thankful for active obedience of Christ. No hope without it." Links D. G. Hart, Defending the Faith: J. Gresham Machen and the Crisis of Conservative Protestantism in Modern America Ned B. Stonehouse, J. Gresham Machen: A Biographical Memoir The Presbyterian Conflict D. G. Hart and John Muether, Fighting the Good Fight: A Brief History of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Richard E. Burnett, Machen's Hope: The Transformation of a Modernist in the New Princeton Chapters 00:00:07 Introduction 00:05:00 Machen's Significance 00:25:13 Machen's Family Background 00:41:44 Machen at Marburg 00:48:31 Machen, Vos, and History 00:54:54 Machen's Mentors 01:05:28 Assessing Machen 01:20:53 Conclusion

Danny Olinger, John Muether, Darryl Hart, and Camden Bucey explore the life and legacy of J. Gresham Machen, discussing Richard E. Burnett's provocative book, Machen's Hope: The Transformation of a Modernist in the New Princeton. Burnett seeks to reframe Machen as both modern and orthodox, portraying him as a “conservative modernist” who employed modern intellectual methods while remaining firmly committed to Reformed theology. This episode critically examines Burnett's thesis and evaluates its contribution to understanding Machen's theological and historical significance. While Burnett rightly highlights Machen's struggles in Germany and at Princeton, the panel critiques his use of terms like “modern” and “modernist,” noting they often diverge from Machen's own vocabulary and theological focus. They emphasize that even the younger Machen remained theologically orthodox and discerning of heterodoxy, as seen in his critiques of figures like his professor Wilhelm Herrmann. Furthermore, the panel questions Burnett's emphasis on Machen's early crises over his later, defining contributions—such as founding Westminster Seminary and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church—arguing that this framing risks downplaying Machen's lifelong theological battle against liberalism, which he saw as denying God's direct intervention in history and thus undermining the gospel. This episode sheds light on Machen's enduring legacy and his vital contributions to Reformed orthodoxy. Overall, the panelists contend that Machen's hope was centered on God's supernatural action in history, a hope Machen famously summarized in his final words: “So thankful for active obedience of Christ. No hope without it.” Links D. G. Hart, Defending the Faith: J. Gresham Machen and the Crisis of Conservative Protestantism in Modern America Ned B. Stonehouse, J. Gresham Machen: A Biographical Memoir The Presbyterian Conflict D. G. Hart and John Muether, Fighting the Good Fight: A Brief History of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church Richard E. Burnett, Machen's Hope: The Transformation of a Modernist in the New Princeton Chapters 00:00:07 Introduction 00:05:00 Machen's Significance 00:25:13 Machen's Family Background 00:41:44 Machen at Marburg 00:48:31 Machen, Vos, and History 00:54:54 Machen's Mentors 01:05:28 Assessing Machen 01:20:53 Conclusion

About the Guest(s):David VanDrunen is a respected scholar and professor of Systematic Theology and Christian Ethics at Westminster Seminary, California, located in Escondido, near San Diego. With over two decades of experience, he has extensively researched and discussed areas like natural law and Christian ethics. VanDrunen is also an ordained minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and an accomplished author, contributing significantly to theological education.Episode Summary:In this episode of the Renewal Cast, hosts Coalt Robinson and Jay Wipf engage with David VanDrunen to delve into the profound subject of natural law. The discussion promises enriching insights into how humans inherently understand moral laws through God's revelation in nature, a topic VanDrunen has thoroughly explored in his scholarly work. Packed with biblical references and theological depth, the episode is engineered to provide listeners with a clearer understanding of how natural law integrates with Christian faith and practice. Unpacking the central themes of natural law as depicted in scripture, particularly through the lens of Romans 1 and 2, VanDrunen explains how these biblical passages underscore a universal moral awareness inherent to humanity. The dialogue further extends to explore the interrelation between natural law and the two kingdoms doctrine, illuminating how moral standards transcend cultural and religious boundaries, binding all humankind in a shared understanding of right and wrong. VanDrunen emphasizes the historical and theological significance of natural law, showing its role in guiding ethical and public life.Key Takeaways:Natural law is God's law revealed in the natural order, universally known by all humans through their consciences.Romans 1 and 2 provide a biblical basis for understanding natural law, emphasizing that all people are aware of God's laws inherently.Natural law assists in public policy and ethical living by offering a common moral standard for believers and non-believers.The Mosaic covenant reflects natural law but includes additional context relevant to Israel's unique historical role.A thoughtful interpretation of natural law should be guided by scripture, aligning human life choices with God's design.Notable Quotes:"Natural law is God's law, not as delivered in scripture, but as revealed in the natural order.""No one can escape natural law – Romans one says everyone knows it.""The Mosaic law reflects the natural law but gives it to Israel in a way that's consistent with their unique place in redemptive history.""We need to make the distinction that natural theology is fallible and natural revelation is infallible.""Natural law provides a common moral standard and helps us promote principles of good living in our shared public life."Resources:David VanDrunen's works on natural law and Christian ethics.Reference to Romans chapters 1 and 2 for biblical context.Analysis of Genesis 20 and Amos 1 in relation to natural law.Discussion of the two kingdoms doctrine.For those interested in exploring the depth of Christian ethics and understanding natural law's role in faith and societal engagement, listening to the full episode is highly recommended. Stay tuned for more enlightening discussions on Renewal Cast, where theological wisdom and biblical insights come together for thoughtful discourse.

In this episode of Christ the Center, we welcome Rev. Hank Bowen, pastor of First Reformed Church in Aberdeen, South Dakota, for an insightful conversation on the Reformed Church in the United States (RCUS). Together with Camden Bucey and Ryan Noha, Rev. Bowen traces the rich historical roots of the RCUS, from its German Palatinate origins through its development in America. The discussion covers the denomination's key theological influences, particularly its connections with the Heidelberg Catechism, and its intersections with other Reformed traditions such as the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC). As they reflect on the challenges and blessings the RCUS has faced over the centuries, including its role in resisting liberalism and promoting confessional orthodoxy, the conversation highlights the enduring legacy and ongoing influence of the RCUS in Reformed theology today. Whether you are a familiar with the RCUS or new to its history, this episode offers valuable reflections on the faithfulness of God through the generations. Chapters [00:00:07] Introduction [00:01:26] Overview of the Reformed Church in the U.S. (RCUS) [00:02:53] Updates from Reformed Forum [00:05:40] The History and Formation of the RCUS [00:08:14] Celebrating the 300th Synod of the RCUS [00:11:32] Rev. Bowen's Personal Testimony [00:13:25] The RCUS and Theological Challenges [00:20:15] The Influence of Westminster Seminary on the RCUS [00:24:02] The Importance of Catechesis and the Heidelberg Catechism [00:33:33] Church Planting and Home Missions in the RCUS [00:37:55] Ecumenical Relations with the OPC and the URCNA [00:46:45] RCUS Foreign Missions Strategy [00:57:08] Rev. Bowen's Doctoral Research and Pastoral Burnout [01:00:14] Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In this episode of Christ the Center, we welcome Rev. Hank Bowen, pastor of First Reformed Church in Aberdeen, South Dakota, for an insightful conversation on the Reformed Church in the United States (RCUS). Together with Camden Bucey and Ryan Noha, Rev. Bowen traces the rich historical roots of the RCUS, from its German Palatinate origins through its development in America. The discussion covers the denomination's key theological influences, particularly its connections with the Heidelberg Catechism, and its intersections with other Reformed traditions such as the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC). As they reflect on the challenges and blessings the RCUS has faced over the centuries, including its role in resisting liberalism and promoting confessional orthodoxy, the conversation highlights the enduring legacy and ongoing influence of the RCUS in Reformed theology today. Whether you are a familiar with the RCUS or new to its history, this episode offers valuable reflections on the faithfulness of God through the generations. Watch on YouTube and Vimeo. Chapters [00:00:07] Introduction [00:01:26] Overview of the Reformed Church in the U.S. (RCUS) [00:02:53] Updates from Reformed Forum [00:05:40] The History and Formation of the RCUS [00:08:14] Celebrating the 300th Synod of the RCUS [00:11:32] Rev. Bowen’s Personal Testimony [00:13:25] The RCUS and Theological Challenges [00:20:15] The Influence of Westminster Seminary on the RCUS [00:24:02] The Importance of Catechesis and the Heidelberg Catechism [00:33:33] Church Planting and Home Missions in the RCUS [00:37:55] Ecumenical Relations with the OPC and the URCNA [00:46:45] RCUS Foreign Missions Strategy [00:57:08] Rev. Bowen's Doctoral Research and Pastoral Burnout [01:00:14] Conclusion and Final Thoughts Participants: Camden Bucey, Hank Bowen, Ryan Noha

To be a mom is often to feel guilt. Often we feel overwhelmed by everything we aren't doing that we “should” be doing and we can worry that we are messing up our kids. Our friends, often out of love, tell us we have nothing to worry about. We've done nothing wrong and we are perfect mothers. But in our gut we know we aren't perfect mothers and we know we have failed our kids at times.How do we discern between conviction over areas where we have sinned versus shame over things the Lord has already forgiven us for or things that we have no power to control? How do we sort out which things we “need to do” as opposed to things our culture says we need to do? What are some techniques for dealing with overwhelming feelings of shame in the moment?Listen in for a Biblical consideration of "mom guilt" with Melissa Falcone --staff counselor at Del Ray Baptist Church, Westminster Seminary grad, Christian Counseling & Educational Foundation instructor, and mom to four.Resource Mentioned:Ask Pastor John, “How Do I Forget My Sinful Past?”

In this podcast conversation, we talk about raising boys, biblical masculinity, Jordan Peterson, toxic masculinity vs. biblical masculinity, the so-called "war on men," and other related issues.  Dr. Anthony Bradley (Ph.D. Westminster Seminary) was most recently professor of religious studies and director of the Center for the Study of Human Flourishing at The King's College, Theologian-In-Residence at Redeemer Presbyterian Church—Lincoln Square, and now serves as a distinguished research fellow at The Acton Institute and Research Professor of Interdisciplinary and Theological Studies at Kuyper College. His books include: Liberating Black Theology (2010), Black and Tired (2011), The Political Economy of Liberation (2012), Keep Your Head Up (2012), Aliens In The Promised Land (2013), John Rawls and Christian Social Engagement (2014), Black Scholars In White Space (2015), Something Seems Strange (2016), Ending Overcriminalization and Mass Incarceration (2018), Faith In Society (2019), Why Black Lives Matter (2020), and Heroic Fraternities (2023). Support Theology in the Raw through Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/theologyintheraw

How can all the Bible be all about Jesus when His name doesn't explicitly appear till the New Testament? From Genesis to Leviticus to Esther, it may be hard to see Jesus on the surface of every page, but he's there—in profound and subtle ways. Dr. Dennis Johnson is a scholar and one of the founding faculty members of Westminster Seminary in California. Today, he joins David Wollen to discuss a christocentric approach to reading and studying God's Word. If you are new to this way of reading the Bible, we encourage you to be patient. It may take some time to learn to see Jesus on every page, but it's important and worth the effort. Because this is not merely a hermeneutical trick of smoke and mirrors ... it's the way Jesus himself taught his disciples to study and teach the Scriptures. 

THE INAUGURAL EPISODE OF OUR NEW MONTHLY SUB-SHOW: FATHERS & BROTHERS. Pastor Jim McCarthy of Trinity Presbyterian Church in Statesboro, GA talks to his mentors and fathers in the faith. This time it's Rick Phillips, the Senior Pastor of Second Presbyterian Church in Greenville, SC.  He's authored dozens of books and is a familiar face on the reformed conference circuit. He serves on the boards of Westminster Seminary, the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, and the Gospel Reformation Network.  Check out his sermons here and books here. Special thanks to Nathan Clark George for our opening and closing instrumental. Nathan serves as the Pastor of Worship alongside Kevin DeYoung at Christ Covenant Church in Matthews, NC. You can access Nathan's fantastic catalog here. (https://nathanclarkgeorge.com/home)

In this profound episode, Jonathan is joined by esteemed theologian and author Michael Horton to discuss his latest book, "Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us." In a world teetering on the brink of chaos—from unsettling politics to the lingering effects of the global pandemic—Horton's book offers not a typical self-help guide but a deep theological exploration of how a proper fear of God can liberate us from our myriad earthly fears.Dr. Horton, Professor of Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Seminary, explains what it truly means to fear God—both biblically and theologically—and how this reverential fear can effectively drive out fears of the future, others, and even death itself.Throughout the episode, Dr. Horton discusses the different types of fears that plague our society—from cultural anxieties to personal struggles—and how these stem from a lack of genuine fear of God. He emphasizes confronting our earthly fears with the hope found in Christ, rooted in the Gospel, and the shift from self-preservation to a Christ-focused life.This episode is a humbling, thought-provoking, and hope-igniting journey that challenges listeners to replace false securities with the profound joy of knowing Christ, who commands us, "Do not be afraid." Join us as we explore how cultivating a healthy fear of God can recover our sanity in these turbulent times.To ask Jonathan a question or connect with the Candid community, visit https://LTW.org/CandidFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/candidpodInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/candidpodTwitter: https://twitter.com/thecandidpodTRANSCRIPT:This transcript recounts Candid Conversations with Jonathan Youssef Episode 249: Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears That Divide Us: Michael Horton.  [00:01] Jonathan: My very special guest is Mike Horton. He is a professor of systematic theology and apologetics at Westminster Seminary in California, and he is the author of many books, including The Christian Faith Ordinary and Core Christianity. He also hosts the White Horse Inn radio program. He lives with his wife, Lisa, and their four children in Escondido, California, and it looks like he's on his back patio,  having a conversation with me and being very gracious with his time. Mike Horton, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Candid Conversations.[00:45] Michael: Thank you, Jonathan.[00:50] Jonathan: I do thank you for your time. Now Mike, I've read your books, I have subscribed and I do recommend all of our listeners subscribe to the White Horse Inn. If you could just give us a quick, whirlwind tour of your story, we can talk a little bit about the podcast and some of your books as we progress through the interview.[01:19] Michael: Well, thank you, Jonathan. Yeah, I was raised in a Christian home and came to understand the doctrines of grace partly through my older brother. Kind of had my own little, not little, my own Romans revolution and then started digging deeper into Church history and theology and biblical studies, and eventually went to Biola University, Westminster California, then to Oxford for doctoral studies and then post-doc at Yale and came back to teach at my alma mater and have been here for 25 years. Blessed to be able to have a hand, with my colleagues, in training pastors; pastors training pastors.[02:17] Jonathan: I've been a recipient of many of the students of Westminster Seminary who taught me at Reformed Theological Seminary in Atlanta, and I've been really blessed by your work. You've got a very jovial, friendly, California vibe to you, but when you speak, you're like a double-edged sword. It's so penetrating. And I think there could be a theological issue that I've been struggling with for months and you'll say it so concisely in a few sentences, and I'll think, Where was that when I needed that?[03:09] Michael: You're too kind. Thank you.[03:11] Jonathan: Tell us a little bit about the White Horse Inn. It has been on for something like thirty years.[03:17] Michael: Yeah, thirty-plus, almost thirty-five years now. It has been such a fun thing. I've learned so much from my colleagues on the program. I still learn from the new team. We produce a magazine, too, Modern Reformation Magazine, which is really—I encourage people to subscribe to that. It's a good digest of topical theology related to culture. The umbrella organization is called Sola Media, and one of the things that we do that I'm so excited about being a part of is called Theo Global, where we host theological conversations (like we do on the White Horse Inn) between Baptist, Lutheran, Reformed, Anglican traditions and bring people together from a particular region. So we've been doing it for eleven years in India and also almost that long in Nigeria or in Kenya, in Nairobi. And then also Cairo for the Middle East. We just did one in Thailand that Pakistanis and Indians were able to come to, because they're not able usually to see each other. And then we are, Lord willing, starting another one in Southeast Asia, probably Singapore.So these have been so rich. Out of them are coming, a series of theology books from the global church to the global church. And so instead of having just regional theologies or theologies that pretend that they're not culturally contextual, we want to hear the voices of people from different locations testifying to the same Gospel, and that's just really been lots of fun.[05:42] Jonathan: Well, having ministered near that area of the world in Australia, you're right, there can be a disconnect between the cultures. We read each other's books and that sort of thing, and those are Western cultures, but I think we miss out on hearing about what is happening in Southeast Asia, Because they do face similar obstacles but also some quite different. As one of the points of your book is, there is still the one true God and the one Gospel that reaches across those cultures and reaches across so many of those things that we would consider barriers. And I think that's wonderful. I pray the Lord would bless that.[06:30] Michael: Thank you. One of the things I find, Jonathan, is there is a sweet unity around the Gospel that binds us when I go to these other places. Wherever I am in the world, I don't feel like I'm a stranger because I'm with my brothers and sisters. I wish I felt the same way in America. It's very different here.[06:51] Jonathan: Yeah, I was going to say it's interesting that what you're doing is you're unifying and uniting across denominations, across cultural things, and yet that's working almost in the opposite direction of where we see things here, which is there's division within denominations; there's division within small regions. You're undoing what is happening on a bigger scale in some of the Western parts. It's exciting to hear that's not happening everywhere, that there's actually some unification taking place and that's encouraging. And I know that's going to be an aspect of what we talk about in our conversation about one of your new books.Now, I know that you had some health issues with your heart a couple of years ago. Maybe for some of our audience who didn't know or having heard any updates, are you healthy?[07:54] Michael: Thanks for asking. Yes, what it was was a valve that just exploded in my heart, so it was an emergency open-heart surgery. But they said—they know my arteries and my heart better than anybody, they said, you'll die of something, but it won't be of heart disease. You have a good heart; you have good arteries; this was just a fluke.[08:24] Jonathan: Unbelievable.[08:25] Michael: So—yeah. I'm fully recovered. They said I could go bungee jumping again if I want to.[08:32] Jonathan: Again. I'm glad that you were already doing that—I picked up your book a while ago and I've been wanting to have you on the podcast ever since reading it. And the book is called Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us. And my goodness, what a perfect title for everything we see. Give us a little bit of the reason for writing and the timing of the book.[09:18] Michael: Well, it had been percolating for years now, actually. I wrote a book many years ago called Beyond Culture Wars: Is America a Mission Field or a Battlefield? And this is in a similar vein, but really in light of the fears that really divide us today. And the center used to be the Bible, the Gospel, getting the Gospel right and getting the Gospel out. We have our doctrinal differences across the evangelical mainstream, but basically we had different political views and those political views didn't divide between brothers and sisters and churches.And what I've seen lately has just been like a food fight in a cafeteria, and political issues and social issues raised to the level of the Trinity. And it's like, okay, well, we can argue about that over coffee, but we don't bring it into the church. That used to be kind of how people thought about things. These things are important, but they're not as important as our unity in Christ. But I hear people attacking pastors, pastors attacking their flock, back and forth over these issues. And I think people don't get this heated over the doctrine of election or justification or the Trinity. Does it suggest that these issues are deeper in our hearts than the truth of Christianity, so what really binds us?And I looked at it and I said what really binds us is salvation, what we think we're saved from. If we think we're saved from the people over there who are threatening our values, or the people over there who are different from us ethnically, or the people over there who have a different view of economics and social justice? What are we really afraid of? What are our ultimate fears? And I argue that we have all these secondary fears. The real fear deep down, the mother of all fears, is the fear of death. And none of the solutions that can be offered by FOX or CNN, there is no solution to that. But we have it. Why isn't that on our dashboard as central, getting it right and getting it out?[13:01] Jonathan: In the book you cast a broad net in kind of what you've just said up here, picking out a few of the issues that you're seeing so much division over. But then you lay out some of the theological framework to reorientate your reader to where fear should rightly be placed. And it's away from the fear of one another and having a right fear of God.And you use the word sublime in the book, which I found really helpful as an aspect of God. I wonder if you could give us a little bit of explanation and walk that out for us.[13:52] Michael: Sure. I love that word. Sublime is really, I think, what we're talking about when we talk about the fear of God. Some people will say, “Well, it's not really fear. It's reverence, awe.” Fear is a big part of it, but it's a kind of fear that attracts. Think of what happens if you've ever stood at the mouth of a volcano, looking over it, watching the lava flow. Or I live in Southern California, so we have fires, and there's a kind of weird attraction to going to the fire and seeing it. Or you're out on the ocean and you're terrified. A squall comes up you're afraid, but you're also kind of your heart is racing not just because you're afraid, but also because you're kind of in awe of what's happening. In awe of the waves.God, you know whenever an angel shows up in the Bible, an emissary of God, what's the first thing? You know the number-one commandment throughout Scripture? The number-one command is “Be not afraid.” Because when even the mailman of God shows up, people are terrified.[15:31] Jonathan: Yeah, or Moses's face is a little too bright.[15:36] Michael: Yeah. Hey, put a napkin over that or something… That's what, really, is the basis for all sublime events, encounters that we have is really the fear of God. And so it's … A Jewish writer, John Levinson, puts it well. He says, “In the Hebrew Scriptures God beckons with one hand and repels with the other.”So there's a kind of don't get too close. Even Jesus in His Resurrection, “Don't touch me. I'm different.” God is different from us. And that sense of awe, of majesty, of even terror. Think of the disciples in the boat with Jesus. They were afraid of the storm, and then Jesus calmed the storm and they were afraid of Jesus. Who is this who has control over the winds and the waves? They were terrified. And that's the kind of Who is this? What am I dealing with here? The kind of shock and awe, the surprise is something that is missing, I think, from a lot of our experience as Christians today.[17:11] Jonathan: Well, and I know in the book we've seen a lot of the statistical evidence that comes in support of what you've just said, which shows that evangelical Christians really don't know what they believe. They have a complete misunderstanding of God, of the nature of Christ, of their roles.[17:51] Michael: If the fear of God is not the beginning of our wisdom, then something else will be. We'll fear something else. We will fear other people who are different from us and we'll fear cancer, we'll fear losing our job, we'll fear environmental collapse and catastrophe, we'll fear these other people taking over. It's not that those … that there aren't legitimate concerns of a political and social and cultural nature. But we have a disordered fear. And if we have disordered fears, we have disordered loves.God is not only the source of our greatest fear, legitimate fear; He's also the only one who conquers our fears and says, “Welcome home, prodigal. Welcome home, here's the feast.”[19:22] Jonathan: And deals with our, as you refer to it, the mother of all fears.[19:27] Michael: Death. We're dying. In California, people aren't allowed to die; they pass away; and we put these cemeteries out, far away from view, or we turn them into parks and things. And it used to be every time you walked into a church there would be headstones, and it reminded you as you walked in why you're going in there. The Gospel is for dying people, and we're all on that road. And so the question is, How do we face death? … How is that ultimate anxiety relieved? We mourn, but not as those who have no hope. So what does that mean for my daily life now? I could be twelve years old and I'm dying. I could be eighty and I'm dying. So what … Let's talk about that. Let's talk about the dying and the resurrection of the dead and being attached to Jesus so that what He is in His humanity right now, glorified, we will be. Let's talk about that. That's a lot better than anything on CNN or FOX.[21:00] Jonathan: I love it. I think in the book you tell the story of when you went to a debate with, I might be messing this up, but I think it was with an atheist and you sort of said, “Yep. Great. Can I talk about Jesus now” and kind of put him off, and he sort of like, “I wasn't prepared to debate that.”[21:22] Michael: Yeah. This was years ago. Bill Nye the Science Nye.[21:24] Jonathan: Bill Nigh, that's right.[21:25] Michael: He was talking about how religion is based on false fears and so they develop myths and so forth.[21:37] Jonathan: And you were like, “Well, that's true.”[21:39] Michael: Yeah. I don't disagree; that's a pretty fair analysis of religions. I guess you'd have to take one by one and analyze it, but as a generalization, now can I talk about Jesus and His Resurrection? Let's keep getting back to the main business here.[21:59] Jonathan: The main issue. Yeah. In the book you draw this distinction between naturalistic and hyper supernatural, but then you sort of carve out this third option of ordinary. Can we talk a little bit about that and how we see that playing out in our world today, particularly in the Church?[22:23] Michael: Sure. Often what you see today is a naturalism underwriting the progressive agenda and John Lennon's “Imagine.” On the right, you tend to have a hyper supernaturalism wedded to a conservative agenda. And so what do I mean by that? Well, a naturalistic worldview says, of course, God isn't involved. If God exists, then He's not involved in this world. He didn't create it, it's self-evolving and so forth.A hyper-supernatural worldview says that God works miraculous. You know, to say that God did it means it's a miracle.[23:34] Jonathan: Yeah.[23:35] Michael: Whereas in the Bible God does all sorts of things. Mostly, He doesn't perform miracles. What about all the times when we cut our finger and it heals after a week? What about that? What about a child [who] has a brain bleed in NICU and it resolves in 24 hours. How about those? Those aren't miracles. People say, “the miracle of childbirth.” There's no miracle of childbirth; it's just a spectacular example of God's providence. That's part of our problem is we're looking for God only in the spectacular, only in the extraordinary, only in places where we can point to and say, “Oh, God did that.”So we can't explain how somebody recovered from cancer; we say, “Well, God did it, not the doctors.”[24:46] Jonathan: Right.[24:47] Michael: Well, how about God did it and the doctors did it. God did it through the doctors.[24:52] Jonathan: How much control does God have here?[24:55] Michael: Right. He has control of everything. It's not just supernatural events; it's not just miracles. God's in control of every second, every breath. Every breath that you and I take is under His dominion.[25:11] Jonathan: That's right. He holds all things together. You know, I hear that phrase a lot, “That was a God thing. That was a God thing,” and I always have to stop and say to them, “Everything is a God thing.” I mean, conversations. The fact that your brain works. The ability to read. The ability to understand and reason. It's like I hate when you get that narrow scope, as you're saying. We've lost the sublime. We've lost an understanding of how much—you know, it's almost a deistic view that, you know, God sort of—[25:42] Michael: Yes![25:43] Jonathan: He's put some things in place and then He occasionally steps in and—[25:47] Michael: That's why I argue that actually naturalism and hyper supernaturalism unintentionally conspire with each other against Christianity—[25:57] Jonathan: Right.[25:58] Michael: —you know because, you know, we get to the place where we don't see God in our ordinary, everyday existence, but only in these punctuated events, and we've got to raise things. I think we do a lot of pretending. We pretend that things that have an ordinary explanation are miracles because we have to have God in our life. These large swaths of our lives where there are no miracles are upheld by God's marvelous providence.[26:40] Jonathan: Right. Amen to that. In the book, one of the fears you mentioned is fear of losing your job. And I think in the book you helpfully distinguish between calling and vocation or job and helping us understand and distinguish the two things. I wonder if we can talk a little bit of bringing clarity to that, because we're longing for something to put our identity in. Is it a football club? Is it a university? We're currently, I don't know when this will air, but we're in the middle of March Madness. Who did you pick? What's your university? What's your background?And vocation is very much one of those things we can put our identity in, and yet I think you talk about the ultimate and the penultimate between calling and vocation. I wonder if you could bring some clarity to that, and then we'll turn to some of the practical outworkings of the division we see after that.[27:53] Michael: Yeah. Well, one of the things I try to maintain throughout the book is, look, the things I'm talking about are not unimportant. They are legitimate fears. There is a legitimate anxiety. The question is, where do we go with that? But yes, let's affirm it. It's real, it's a deal, but penultimate not ultimate.For example, if I am in a circle of people I've never met before, we're having breakfast, and I ask them, “Tell me about yourself,” very ordinarily they'll say, “Well, I'm a dentist. I'm a …”Now okay, there's an example. That is part of our identity. Vocation is a gift of God; it's a calling. So to say, you know, we shouldn't place our identity in our vocations, well, not ultimately. That's the problem. It's a part of our identity, just like being a father is part of my identity. That's a calling. And we have to realize, as Luther said, we have many callings, many vocations during our life. We're parents, we're spouses, we're children, we are extended family members, we're dentists, and cleaning movie theaters. We have all kinds of callings/vocations. Sometimes we have a vocation to suffer, to carry a cross. Sometimes we have a vocation to be a friend. We have lots of vocations, and keeping them in balance is very important.Keeping them penultimate, not ultimate, is my point. My ultimate identity is chosen, redeemed, justified, being sanctified, will be glorified, in union with Christ. That's my identity and that's really who I am. Paul talks about himself as if he's almost collapsed into Jesus. His identity is so bound up with Christ that he can even say his suffering is something he glories in because it shares in Christ's suffering. That's my identity; that's where I really find who I am. The other stuff is not just stuff I do, that turns it back into a job. It is part of my identity, but it's penultimate, not ultimate.[30:57] Jonathan: Well, as we said at the beginning, we see division in so many different places. We're, of course, as you know, we're in another election year, and that—fear is going to be used as a … it's going to be weaponized this year, particularly this year, in America. And we have an international audience, so I want to be sensitive, but I know that internationally also they see a lot of American news as well. I think you talk about how, in the book, two sides to the fear coin. You mention both in the book. One side, fear is easily exploited as a motivator. On the other, fear is a weak motivator in the long term. Why is that? Let's kind of unpack that a little bit.[32:07] Michael: Yeah. I use the analogy of deer who are … there is this fight or flight that God gave us and the animals as well. It's purely instinctual, instinctive. You don't … Whether you're a deer or a human being, you don't really think about, you don't contemplate, you don't calculate, you don't explore what … You have a car coming towards you, you flee. You get out of its way if you can. But what happens is—That's adrenaline. That adrenaline rush is just a marvelous gift of God's providence. The problem is what would happen is deer had this disease of constantly being afraid, every crack of brush of another deer drove them wild running in fear? That's what I see us doing now, and what happens is it works in the short term. If you're going to cynically use fear to get a herd of people to do what you want them to do, that might work in the short term, but long term, people can't live like that. Long term, people actually become cynical. They won't participate at all. They'll just turn it off because “I've had this scare a thousand times and I'm not going to have it anymore. I'm tired of it.” It just runs out.And that's what I think a lot of people are feeling right now with American politics. So I'm not an analyst of American politics by any stretch of the imagination; I'm simply looking at it on the pastoral side. What is driving us to be like the deer in the headlights every five minutes? And it's exhausting us.[34:33] Jonathan: Yeah.[34:34] Michael: Each side whipping up the other side against each other. If I don't win this election, dot, dot, dot. If the other person wins the election, dot, dot, dot. It's apocalypse not. I especially find offensive any use of God or the Bible or Christ for that fear. Anyone who does that, particularly cynical leaders who don't even go to church, aren't professing Christians really, but they use the lingo to gain the nomination of particular groups. When Christians participate in that, they carry crosses to the U.S. Capitol to storm it and talk about hanging the vice president, and they're carrying crosses with Bible verses, this is the sort of thing that must just aggravate our Lord and Savior whose name is taken in vain.And yeah, is that a critique especially of evangelical political conservatives? Yes, it is. Because they are my brothers and sisters closest to me. The secularists aren't really invoking the name of Jesus and Bible verses and carrying crosses. I'm more worried about evangelicals distorting the gospel than I am about who wins this next election.[36:54] Jonathan: What is that doing to your testimony to those people who don't know the Lord? What message is it giving them?[37:10] Michael: That Christianity is about power.[37:11] Jonathan: Right, exactly.[37:12] Michael: It's not about a cross with God who has all power becoming flesh being spat upon and then being crucified upon a cross, bleeding for our sins. It's about basically choosing Caesar over Jesus, making Pilate our hero rather than Jesus.[37:45] Jonathan: I found that chapter, I can't remember if it's the Christian nationalism chapter or the one before, but it was really helpful the way that you walked out American history in a way that probably a lot of the readers might say, “I don't know if I understood that.” Or “I don't know if I fully understood Thomas Jefferson and his letter to the Danbury Baptist Church in Connecticut.” Understanding separation of church and state, understanding like how we got to where we are and the creating of even thinking between the British … French revolution and those different paths that were laid out before us. And even just understanding our own history and how we got to where we are, I think a lot of it is just cast as Christian nation. And I found it helpful the way you distinguish that.Because I hear this a lot in the church in terms of America being the new Israel, are there blessings that have come with certain things? Sure, fine. Our Constitution is well put together. I love the history of Witherspoon, the Scottish Presbyterian, and you can see some of that in the language that comes out through the Constitution. Again, I think it's helpful to have your historical understanding rather than this reinterpretation that we have now that it's, as you said, it's this feeling like someone's come in and taken this from us. And now, to use the title of your other book, now we're at war, right? It's not a mission field, it's a battlefield. We're fighting for the honor of our country. And all that's done is create us and them division and a lack of clarity and a lack of what we're called to in a mission sense as Christians. Where was I going with that? Who knows? Anyway, I found it helpful.[40:10] Michael: You said it better. Preach it, brother.[40:16] Jonathan: Just random thoughts. Just reading your books and regurgitating it to the people. So later on in the book you sort of walk us through the areas where division has come in. So we have Christian nationalism has certainly seeped into churches. Then you have some really helpful, short chapters with issues with LGBTQ+ community, cancel culture, racism. Let's just kind of walk through some of these and help Christians who are listening to this who are saying, I thought this was the right way to handle that situation but you're saying something else. Let's kind of walk through maybe even just one or two of those. Again, you had a really great illustration under your LGBTQ+ chapter of the young man whose family had sent him to you and you were pastoring him and what happened with all that. If you could tell us a little bit about that, just to help kind of encapsulate what we're talking about here.[41:35] Michael: Sure, this brother struggling with homosexuality, his dad was on the board of a prominent evangelical organization, and his pastor had told him that we basically don't want your influence in the church, so he was considering leaving the faith. But then he read Putting Amazing Back Into Grace, a book I wrote a long time ago, and came out to work at our organization as just a pretext for just hanging out and shepherding this guy. He became a part of our church and a lot of people looked after him and we got a lot back from him.He went back home, and his pastor said that all this reformed teaching he was getting was heresy and so forth, and no, you've lost your salvation. Romans says that He gave them over to a depraved mind. So he committed suicide and …So what is it? Why do you do stuff like that? Well, you do it out of bad theology, to be sure, but also out of fear. There are a lot of churches that just don't want to deal with it. They don't want to have this problem. They don't want to say that they have people in their congregation who are really, really suffering. If you're a secularist, you don't suffer from homosexuality. You don't suffer with gender dysphoria. Only Christians do. And only Christians suffer with greed and envy and malice and other sins that are listed in these same sin lists in the New Testament. You don't lose your salvation over those.The key is repentance, right? We're called to a life of repentance. Whatever our tendencies are towards particular sins, we're all corrupt in heart. We're sinners and we're sinned against and we are in a sin-cursed world. And so where do we go with that fear? And then once that fear is solved objectively in Christ, having been justified through faith, we have peace with God. That's an objective fact. With that now as an objective fact, how do I respond to this brother or sister who's justified just as I am, and who is being sanctified just as I am, but has propensity toward a particular sin that I think is particularly serious, particularly great? How do I love this person? How do I respond to this person?John Calvin said a pastor needs to learn how to have two voices: one for the sheep and one for the wolves. And what I've seen in some very close cases to my own experience, what I've seen sometimes is pastors confusing the sheep for wolves and treating them as apostates or as people who, you know, if you really were a Christian, you wouldn't be suffering with that. Well, they're not saying, “I have a right to this sin.” They're not saying that it's okay. That's why they're struggling with it—and they're struggling with it in your church.So one of the surveys, actually a couple of the surveys concluded that about 80 percent of people in the LGBTQ+ community were raised in conservative Roman Catholic or Protestant churches.[46:39] Jonathan: Give that statistic again because I think we need to hear it again.[46:42] Michael: I don't know exact, it's in the 80s, 80 percent.[46:46] Jonathan: Over 80 percent.[46:49] Michael: Right. And what's even more striking is the same percentage said that they would come back to church, even if they didn't change their rules, but listened to them and cared for them. That's what I found amazing. I was glad that they asked … they added in that survey even if they didn't change their beliefs but they were kind and they listened and they cared for me.So if I'm fearful, here again the adrenaline, the deer in the headlights, that's a gift God gave us for fleeing something that is imminently threatening. This is not imminently threatening. If I come to understand that, then I'm not a deer in the headlights; instead, my brother or sister, my friend, parent, I'm someone who is looking out for the best of this person and now I can actually get ahold of myself and think and make judgments and articulate things. And ask questions and get information. That's a big part of it. It's not all spiritual. People are suffering from mental health disorders, and that's physical, that's brain chemistry. All kinds of things.People are suffering from sins that have been committed against them in the past. A lot of this is very complicated, and it's not all that person's direct fault. Again, we're all sinners, sinned against, and live in a sin-cursed world. And all those factors play into what we have to consider when we're not the deer in the headlights but can sit down with people over a long time, be willing to walk with them over a long time, be willing to read up on things, ask them questions, we're that interested in them and understanding what they're going through, understanding their pain. It's like if they have cancer we'd be at their house with casseroles, but if they have these things, you know … So let's … fear of the Lord drives out the fears of everyone and everything else. This is the beginning of wisdom.[48:52] Jonathan: Exactly. Well, I think we could probably have this conversation for probably another four more hours, which we might do just because we're having so many technical difficulties. You know, I can't recommend this book enough. Mike Horton, Recovering Our Sanity: How the Fear of God Conquers the Fears that Divide Us. I told my team I want to re-air this as we get closer to November so that we can all be reminded once again of what we're called to. Mike, what are you working on at the moment?[50:35] Michael: I've been kind of obsessive compulsive about a project, three volumes with Eerdmans. First volume is coming out in May, titled Shaman and Sage. This is a very different project. It's the history of spiritual not religious. Where does this come from? You have this divine self within trying to break out of all constraints. And so I trace it all the way back to ancient Greece and to the Renaissance. And then the second volume, Renaissance to the scientific revolution. And then the third volume is covering Romanticism to the present.[51:31] Jonathan: Oprah.[51:32] Michael: Exactly.[51:35] Jonathan: That's going to be a massive help for believers, because that's the one we see a lot in those statistics. Yeah, I hear that from quite a few people, spiritual but not religious, or whatever the phrase is. But well, Mike Horton, it's been such a privilege. I'm so grateful for your time and coming on to Candid Conversations and sharing with us.[52:10] Michael: Jonathan, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.[52:14] Jonathan: Thank you, brother.  

Support the show!! - https://www.patreon.com/chasedavishttps://americanreformer.org/2024/03/build-a-fortress/https://americanreformer.org/2024/03/restore-baptist-churches-to-save-the-west/SummaryIn this episode, the hosts discuss the concept of fortresses in the context of Christianity in today's world. They explore the differences between culture warriors and cultural engagement, highlighting the flaws in both approaches. They introduce the concept of cultural insurgency as a strategy for Christians in the current negative world. The hosts delve into the importance of shifting loyalties and owning space, emphasizing the need for Christians to understand the distinction between the ruling regime and the nation. They also discuss the significance of fortresses as a metaphor for strengthening the Christian position and launching from a place of strength. The conversation explores the concept of fortresses as a strategy for Christians in a negative world. Fortresses are tangible, martial in spirit, and serve as defensive structures that can be a base for launching forward. The progression in building fortresses is similar to the progression in strategy games, starting with small settlements and advancing to defensive structures. Fortresses are cultural spaces that provide a necessary area of life for Christians. Examples of fortresses include American Reformer and classical education. Churches owning their own space is crucial in a negative world. Screening is important to attract the right people and protect the integrity of the fortress. Normies can be won over by offering a better and higher life.Chapters00:00 Introduction and Guest Introductions03:44 Culture Warriors vs Cultural Engagement09:18 Cultural Insurgency13:56 Shifting Loyalties26:00 The Importance of Fortresses28:50 Introduction to the Concept of Fortresses29:19 The Importance of Tangibility and Martial Spirit30:14 Progression in Building Fortresses31:09 Fortresses as Cultural Spaces32:08 Building a Network of Fortresses33:07 Examples of Fortresses: American Reformer and Classical Education36:43 The Importance of Churches Owning Space39:29 Screening and the Importance of Attracting the Right People44:16 The Controversy of Screening and Ruffling Feathers45:38 The Concept of Normies and Acquiring Their LoyaltySupport the showSign up for the Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/chasedavisFollow Full Proof Theology on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/fullprooftheology/Follow Full Proof Theology on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/fullprooftheology/

This Sunday kicked off our 2024 Global Missions Conference! We welcome guest speaker, Lloyd Kim to preach during our morning worship services.   A native of California, Lloyd graduated from UC Berkeley with a degree in engineering and worked as a consultant with Ernst & Young before getting his M.Div. at Westminster Seminary and his doctorate in New Testament Studies at Fuller Theological Seminary. He was associate pastor with New Life Mission Church (PCA) in Fullerton, Calif., before joining MTW. Beginning in 2004, Lloyd and his wife Eda served as church-planting missionaries in the Philippines and Cambodia. He then served as MTW's international director of the Asia-Pacific region before his nomination as MTW coordinator in July of 2014. He was elected MTW Coordinator by the 2015 General Assembly.   Sermon recorded February 25th, 2024.   Lloyd Kim preaching at Oak Mountain Prebyterian Church in Birmingham, AL

About the Guest(s):D.G. Hart is an esteemed history professor at Hillsdale College. Hart's remarkable career includes teaching positions at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia, California, and an early tenure at Wheaton College after completing graduate school. Hart is a published author with works that delve into a variety of subjects, with a notable book on J. Gresham Machen, originally his dissertation at Johns Hopkins, which has stayed in print since its first publication in 1994.Episode Summary:In this informative edition of Renewalcast, host Jay Wipf welcomes Dr. D.G. Hart to discuss the legacy of Jay Gresham Machen, a significant figure in American church history. As we approach the centennial of Machen's seminal work "Christianity and Liberalism," Hart outlines the profound impact of Machen's writings and thoughts on contemporary Christendom.Hart paints a picture of Machen as a well-educated and influential thinker from a prestigious Baltimore family, who traversed the academic and ecclesiastical worlds with vigor and conviction. The episode offers discerning insights into Machen's life as a scholar, his stance on hot-button issues such as church controversies and secular government mandates, and his unwavering defense of orthodox Protestant beliefs against the tide of liberalism in the early 20th century. With a narrative rich in anecdotes and scholarly commentary, Hart provides a detailed synopsis of "Christianity and Liberalism," underscoring the timelessness of Machen's defense of doctrinal veracity and the imperative of upholding the gospel's centrality in Christian life.Key Takeaways:J. Gresham Machen was an esteemed theologian and church statesman known for his rigorous defense of orthodox Christianity."Christianity and Liberalism," celebrating its 100th anniversary, remains a significant work, critiquing the theological missteps of liberal Protestantism.Machen's personal life intersected with historical events, influencing his perspectives on theological and societal issues such as Sabbath observance and secular policies.DG Hart reiterates Machen's argument that Christianity is fundamentally a doctrinal religion and emphasizes the continued relevance of "Christianity and Liberalism."The podcast explores the parallel between theological liberalism in Machen's day and modern progressivism, revealing Machen's enduring resonance in today's theological discourse.Notable Quotes:"It speaks to Machen's ability as a writer and thinker to be able to express himself in ways that are still useful to people three or four generations removed.""There's always controversy going on among God's people.""There will be no Christianity without the cross of Christ, without the death of Christ for sinners and their sins and overcoming death in the resurrection.""The Bible from cover to cover is a book of controversy.""It's such a defense of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is truly a great book in that regard."Resources:No explicit resources, articles, books, or social media handles were mentioned during the conversation for listing in this section.Experience the full depth of DG Hart's explication on the life and influence of J. Gresham Machen by listening to this episode of Renewalcast. Discover how Machen's theological rigor continues to resonate through the decades, shaping our understanding of the gospel and our engagement with the enduring questions of faith and practice. Stay tuned for more insightful episodes that explore the profound narratives of church history and doctrine.

NoCo Jr. (Luke Abendroth) discusses his first semester at WestCal and much more!

About The Guest(s):David VanDrunen is a professor of systematic theology and Christian ethics at Westminster Seminary, California. He has written extensively on Christianity and culture and is a minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.Summary: David VanDrunen discusses the importance of understanding creation when discussing human sexuality. He explains that our nature as sexual beings is part of who we are and that the fall has corrupted our sexual desires but not our basic human nature. He emphasizes the need to root discussions of sexuality in issues of creation and the natural order. VanDrunen also addresses the distinction between biological sex and gender, highlighting the importance of recognizing that gender is a choice while biological sex is a natural characteristic. He explains that gender identity that goes against biological sex is unnatural to the creation order. The conversation then turns to the use of language in the discussion of sexuality and the importance of being careful not to co-opt language that supports ideas contrary to biblical teachings. VanDrunen also explores the concept of the image of God and how it relates to discussions of sexuality. He emphasizes that our identity as image bearers of God is defined by God and that sin has damaged the image of God in us. Finally, VanDrunen discusses attending same-sex weddings and the need to be discerning in how we engage with others while still upholding biblical principles.Key Takeaways:Understanding our nature as sexual beings is crucial when discussing human sexuality.Gender is a choice, while biological sex is a natural characteristic.Gender identity that goes against biological sex is unnatural to the creation order.We need to be careful not to co-opt language that supports ideas contrary to biblical teachings.Our identity as image bearers of God is defined by God, and sin has damaged the image of God in us.Attending same-sex weddings should be approached with discernment and a commitment to upholding biblical principles.Quotes:"We don't have a choice whether we're male or female. We don't have a choice about the proper way to express our sexuality. God has made us in a certain way, and it's actually good for us if we live according to the way God made us.""We need to help our children or help people in our churches to see that actually, this is good for us. This is according to the way that God has made us. He hasn't done it to constrict us. He's done it for our good.""We need to resist the kind of co-opting of our language. We need to be careful when we're in real-life, concrete situations. We need to give fellow Christians a fair bit of room for judgment as to how you talk and how you interact with people.""We've been deeply damaged by sin, and we're inclined as sinners to kind of make normative the way we feel, to kind of exalt our own feelings and to presume that those are what's normal, that is what is good. But as fallen sinners, we can't do that. We can't trust our own feelings, can't trust our own thoughts. Sin has deeply affected us, and we're going to have to keep coming back to the Scriptures for God's own definition of who He is and therefore who we are as those who bear His image.""We are created by God as His image bearers. That is part of our identity, and that obviously is really important. But then even more so, even more precious to us now, is that we are redeemed by Christ. We're united to Him, we are justified, adopted, sanctified in Him. And in a way, I think probably the entire Christian life is a process of getting used to that. It's a process of learning how to be that other way, that we're citizens of heaven, we're heirs of a kingdom that cannot be shaken as sinners. That's unnatural for us. It has become sort of unnatural in that kind of sinful nature way. It takes us time to get used to being the people of God, to get used to being the Church of Jesus Christ."

About The Guest(s): Dan Borvan is the newly installed pastor at Christ Reform Church in Anaheim, California. He is also an adjunct faculty member at Westminster Seminary, California. Dan has a passion for the French Reformation and has dedicated his studies to uncovering the rich theology and history of the French Reform Church. Summary: In this episode of Renewalcast, Colt Robinson interviews Dan Borvan about the French Reformation. The French Reformation is often overlooked in comparison to the Protestant Reformation in Germany and Switzerland. However, it played a significant role in shaping the theology and history of the Reformed tradition. Dan provides an overview of the French Reformation, starting with its origins in the 1520s and the influence of key figures like Nicholas Cop and John Calvin. He discusses the persecution faced by French Protestants, the establishment of churches, and the publication of the French Confession of faith. Dan also highlights the courage and resilience of the French Reformers in the face of intense opposition and persecution. Key Takeaways:The French Reformation was an organic movement that gained momentum in the 1520s and 1530s.The French Reformers faced intense persecution and were labeled as seditious rebels by the Roman Catholic authorities.John Calvin's Institutes of the Christian Religion and the French Confession of faith were influential in shaping the theology of the French Reform Church.The French Wars of Religion in the second half of the 16th century were marked by conflicts between Catholics and Protestants, as well as divisions within the Catholic camp.The St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in 1572 was a turning point in the French Reformation, leading to widespread persecution and the continuation of the religious civil war.The Edict of Nantes in 1598 provided temporary coexistence between Catholics and Protestants, allowing the French Reform Church to flourish for a few decades before the repeal of the edict in 1685.Quotes:"We must commit as much as we can to stand for the truth, so that when those moments come for us, the Holy Spirit will empower us to stand." - Dan Borvan"Psalm singing was a great offense to the Roman Catholics. It was the original counterculture, anti-establishment, shake your fist at the man kind of music." - Dan Borvan

In this episode, Rush talks with author and mother Jackie Gibson. Jackie and her husband Jonnie have four children. She serves alongside him at Westminster Seminary and most recently published her book “You Are Still A Mother.” In this episode Jackie shares her journey through the still birth death of her daughter Leila. And they talk about the unique challenges of grief in the loss of a child, how caring friends can comfort and help, and the precious ways in which God meets us in our darkest grief and loss. JACKIE GIBSON ONLINEInstagramMENTIONED IN THIS EPISODEYou Are Still A Mother by Jackie GibsonThe Moon Is Always Round by Jonathan GibsonHelping a Hurting Friend by Garrett HigbeeSomeone I Know Is Grieving by Edward T. WelchLearn more about the podcast here. Timestamps:1:20 - Intro1:39 - Moving from Australia3:37 - Life and Ministry Now6:08 - The Story Behind the Book "The Moon is Always Round"16:37 - The Commonality of Loss17:35 - What voices of friends and Scripture shined lights of hope?24:40 - The Comfort of Psalm 13917:49 - Advice for Helping Those Who Grieve31:56 - Thinking About Leila Now34:34 - Farewell

About The Guest(s): D.G. Hart is a historian and professor of history at Hillsdale College. He has taught at various institutions including Westminster Seminary and Wheaton College. He is also an elder in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and has written several books on history and theology. Summary: D.G. Hart discusses the impact of geography and government on the Reformation. He explains how the political environment influenced the success and spread of the Reformation, highlighting the importance of gaining support from local politicians. He also emphasizes the diversity and regional differences in the Reformation, with each area facing unique challenges and circumstances. The conversation then turns to the concept of a "golden age" in the Reformation. Hart argues against the idea of a golden age, stating that it is a misnomer and that there is always a mix of good and bad in any historical period. He points to specific periods in Reformed history, such as the Synod of Dort and the Westminster Assembly, as examples of high points in Reformed theology. The discussion also touches on the topics of martyrdom, missions, and the ongoing debate between Calvinism and Arminianism. Hart explains how martyrdom and persecution played a role in the spread of the Reformation and the development of religious freedom. He also discusses the adaptability of Calvinism to different cultures and the challenges of the Calvinist-Arminian debate. Lastly, Hart addresses the accusations of antinomianism within the Reformed tradition. He argues that these accusations are often unfounded and that Reformed theology does emphasize the importance of sanctification and good works. Key Takeaways:Geography and government played a significant role in the success and spread of the Reformation.The concept of a "golden age" in the Reformation is a misnomer, as there is always a mix of good and bad in any historical period.Martyrdom and persecution were influential in the spread of the Reformation and the development of religious freedom.Calvinism has been adaptable to different cultures and has played a role in missions.Accusations of antinomianism within the Reformed tradition are often unfounded, as Reformed theology emphasizes sanctification and good works.Quotes:"The political environment in which the Church Reformation started was crucial. If you didn't gain support from your local politician, you could be executed." - D.G. Hart"One of the reasons why I like to study history is there's so much variety. It's hard to generalize." - D.G. Hart"The idea of a golden age for American Presbyterianism was the period of the Old School Presbyterian Church." - D.G. Hart"Martyrdom leads to the ideals of religious freedom and separation of church and state." - D.G. Hart"Calvinism has been adaptable to different cultures and has played a role in missions." - D.G. Hart"Accusations of antinomianism within the Reformed tradition are often unfounded." - D.G. Hart

In this episode, Caleb discusses the mission of the church with Bryan Estelle (PhD, The Catholic University of America) Professor of Old Testament at Westminster Seminary. Together, they tackle questions like: What is the mission of the church? How does the mission of the church effect the ministries of the church? What are the dangers of misunderstanding the mission of the church? How is what the cooperate church does similar to and different from what might be permissible and good for individual church members? Resources: The Primary Mission of the Church: Engaging or Transforming the World? by Bryan Estelle https://a.co/d/0eTTqgy What Is the Mission of the Church?: Making Sense of Social Justice, Shalom, and the Great Commission by Kevin DeYoung and Greg Gilbert https://a.co/d/cgY8rah What is the Church's Mission? by Jonathan Leeman https://a.co/d/7KouYyk The Temple and the Church's Mission: A Biblical Theology of the Dwelling Place of God by Greg Beale https://a.co/d/iFojWDq Politics after Christendom: Political Theology in a Fractured World by David VanDrunen https://a.co/d/eMXznYV Living in God's Two Kingdoms: A Biblical Vision for Christianity and Culture by David VanDrunen https://a.co/d/ijfAaY1

In this new series, the team works through some central themes that have emerged as we've been talking with leaders about A Praying Church, elaborating on material Paul recently shared at an event at the The Gospel Coalition conference. "I tell the story at the beginning of the A Praying Church book and seminar. My dad, Jack Miller, had just started at Westminster Seminary faculty. He just gotten his PhD, and started as faculty at Westminster Seminary when he visited Francis Shaffer at L'Abri. He came back very surprised, because he had experienced a community ever so briefly that had prayer at the center and he'd never seen or experienced that before. Here he was an accomplished reformed scholar, even evangelist and pastor, and that was totally new to him." "Pride and self-will constantly draw us into a fellowship of his suffering -- and that's the door to prayer." "Paul ends that section of Ephesians 3 by praying a doxology. He turns and worships, 'now to him who's able to do beyond all that we can ask or even think.' Some translations say 'imagine,' and that's a great translation because your imagination takes you into worlds that are outside of parameters, outside of our thought life. One of my reflections on my dad is that after all this, he began to do daring things and dream about doing daring things. So his prayers got bigger."

About The Guest(s): Drew Hoekema is the minister of the Christian Reform Church in Platte, South Dakota. He has a Master of Divinity from Westminster Seminary in California and has studied at Calvin Seminary in Michigan. Drew has a deep appreciation for the Belgian Confession and its importance in the Reformed tradition. Summary: Drew Hoekema joins the podcast to discuss the Belgic Confession, a Reformed confession of faith written by Guido Debray. Drew provides background information on Debray and the historical context in which the confession was written. He explains that the Belgic Confession was a response to the persecution of Protestants by the Roman Catholic Church in the Lowlands of Europe. Drew also highlights the structure of the confession, with its focus on theology, anthropology, Christology, soteriology, ecclesiology, and eschatology. He discusses the use of the term "regeneration" in Article 24, emphasizing that faith produces regeneration and leads to sanctification. Drew also addresses the mention of Anabaptists in the confession, noting that Debray sought to separate the Reformed Church from the radical Anabaptists of the time. He explains that the confession denounces the Anabaptist view of Christ's humanity and rejects the practice of re-baptism. Drew further explores Article 36, which deals with the relationship between the church and the state. He notes that the confession has been updated over time, reflecting changes in Reformed theology and the understanding of church-state relations. Key Takeaways:The Belgic Confession was written by Guido Debray, a former Roman Catholic who converted to Protestantism and faced persecution for his beliefs.The confession was a response to the persecution of Protestants by the Roman Catholic Church in the Lowlands of Europe.The confession is structured around various theological topics, including theology, anthropology, Christology, soteriology, ecclesiology, and eschatology.The confession emphasizes the importance of faith in producing regeneration and leading to sanctification.The confession denounces the Anabaptist view of Christ's humanity and rejects the practice of re-baptism.The confession has been updated over time to reflect changes in Reformed theology and the understanding of church-state relations.

Pastor John reflects on the staying power of Westminster Seminary and the inescapably Reformed theology of the Bible.This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/3279340/advertisement

Pastor John reflects on the staying power of Westminster Seminary and the inescapably Reformed theology of the Bible.This show is part of the Spreaker Prime Network, if you are interested in advertising on this podcast, contact us at https://www.spreaker.com/show/3279343/advertisement

Pastor John reflects on the staying power of Westminster Seminary and the inescapably Reformed theology of the Bible.

Digging in the Archives from October 2020 -- such an important discussion and deserves to be released again!! About The Guest(s): Dr. David VanDrunen is the Robert B. Strimple Professor of Systematic Theology and Christian Ethics at Westminster Seminary, California. He has a Master's Divinity degree, a law degree, and a PhD in theological ethics. He has been a pastor and has been teaching at Westminster Seminary for almost 20 years. Dr. VanDrunen has written extensively on Christianity and culture, including the topic of the two kingdoms. Summary: Dr. David VanDrunen discusses the concept of the two kingdoms in Christianity and how it relates to engaging with culture. He explains that the two kingdoms view is not the same as Augustine's two cities paradigm, but they are compatible. The two kingdoms refer to God's rule over the world in two distinct ways: his common rule of creation and preservation, and his redemptive rule through the church. Dr. VanDrunen emphasizes that Christians are called to be involved in various areas of life and to pursue excellence and love of neighbor in all that they do. However, he cautions against trying to transform all aspects of culture according to the pattern of Christ's kingdom, as this can lead to unrealistic expectations and confusion. Instead, he suggests that Christians should focus on serving God by serving their neighbors and maintaining a balanced perspective on the institutions and activities of this world. Key Takeaways:The two kingdoms view promotes a healthy balance between triumphalism and withdrawal from culture.Christians are called to pursue excellence and love of neighbor in all areas of life.The church's mission is primarily focused on preaching, teaching, and shepherding, rather than transforming culture.Pastors should be cautious about making political judgments or imposing specific strategies on their congregations.Christians can be involved in cultural activities and institutions without trying to make them uniquely Christian.Quotes:"We recognize that for Christians, we participate in both of these rules.""We recognize that these things are not the ultimate things, that these things are not where our highest allegiance lies.""We can be in the world, but not of this world.""We're serving other human beings created in God's image, and we're instruments of God in taking care of his creation.""We don't have to make it extraordinarily complicated… we're serving other human beings, and that's a way to show the kind of love that we're supposed to show."

Interested in further study of the Bible? Join us at Logos Bible Software. Sign up to attend Westminster Seminary California's Seminary for a Day here! Do you want to retrieve our Classical Protestant theology and heritage? Sign up for a degree program or individual classes at the Davenant Institute by following this link here. Please help support the show on our Patreon Page! WELCOME TO BOOK CLUB! The Rev. Dr. Lee Gatiss (PhD., University of Cambridge) has been Director of Church Society since January 2013. He is married to Kerry and they have three children. Lee read modern history at New College, Oxford, afterwards doing student work at All Soul's, Langham Place. From where he went on to read theological and pastoral studies at Oak Hill College in London. After ordination he served as Curate of St. Botolph's, Barton Seagrave, and St. Edmund's, Warkton, a Church Society Trust parish.While in London he completed a ThM at Westminster Seminary in Philadelphia and then a PhD at Peterhouse and Tyndale House, Cambridge. He also runs the podcast Church Society. We want to thank Crossway for their help in setting up this interview and providing us with the necessary materials for this interview Purchase the book(s) here: The Complete Works of John Owen Have Feedback or Questions? Email us at: guiltgracepod@gmail.com Find us on Instagram: @guiltgracepod Follow us on Twitter: @guiltgracepod Find us on YouTube: Guilt Grace Gratitude Podcast Please rate and subscribe to the podcast on whatever platform you use! Looking for a Reformed Church? North American Presbyterian & Reformed Churches --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/gggpodcast/support

Melanoma, the word strikes fear into the hearer, especially when it is a diagnosis for a loved one. Al Groves, a beloved professor at Westminster Seminary and his wife, Libbie, heard these words and knew life would never be the same. In this  conversation with Sharon Betters, Libbie shares the journey that her family experienced in the year after her husband Al's diagnosis of terminal cancer. She offers her family's story as a means of coming alongside of others who are struggling with cancer, God and grief, answering such questions as: * How did you tell your children? * Did you ever hit a wall where you felt you just couldn't handle all the daily responsibilities of raising your children and caring for your husband? * Al was a gifted author, beloved professor at Westminster Seminary. Did you ever question why such a gifted man who had so much more to offer had to die? * What about lament? * How important was and is your faith? How did it make a difference in the way you viewed this diagnosis? * How did people help you?

Thank you for listening to Brown Mama Bear hosted by Shanera Williamson.  Today on the show, Shanera continues her conversation with the hosts of the award-winning podcast, Truth's Table.  Ekemini Uwan is a public theologian who received her Master of Divinity from Westminster Seminary.  Dr. Christina Edmondson is a former trauma therapist and college dean.  Together they love and seek truth and apply it to all areas of modern life.   Mentioned: The book Truth's Table: Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation The podcast Truth's Table   Connect with Truth's Table: Website, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter   Connect with Shanera and Brown Mama Bear: Facebook, Instagram, Website   Make sure you share Brown Mama Bear with at least 3 friends so you have someone to talk with about these things.

Thank you for listening to Brown Mama Bear hosted by Shanera Williamson.  Today on the show, Shanera welcomes the hosts of the award-winning podcast, Truth's Table.  Ekemini Uwan is a public theologian who received her Master of Divinity from Westminster Seminary.  Dr. Christina Edmondson is a former trauma therapist and college dean.  Together they love and seek truth and apply it to all areas of modern life.   Mentioned: The book Truth's Table: Black Women's Musings on Life, Love, and Liberation The podcast Truth's Table   Connect with Truth's Table: Website, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter   Connect with Shanera and Brown Mama Bear: Facebook, Instagram, Website   Make sure you share Brown Mama Bear with at least 3 friends so you have someone to talk with about these things.

Today on Exploring the Marketplace, Shawn Bolz & Bob Hasson interview Dr. Wayne Grudem. Wayne is Distinguished Research Professor of Theology and Biblical Studies at Phoenix Seminary in Arizona.  He is a graduate of Harvard, Westminster Seminary, and the University of Cambridge, England.  He has published over 25 books, a member of the ESV Bible translation committee, and he was the general editor of the ESV Study Bible. Tune in as Shawn, Bob & Wayne discuss where this all started for him and the God journey along the way, how Wayne demystifies bringing God into your workplace and career and how to plant your feet firmly in your faith for decisions you are believing God for.  In this fast paced world, we need to come back to the simplicity of Jesus.  Tune in!

Dr Justin Holcomb speaks with Mike Neglia about his theological journey and ministry experience that began under the mentorship of Carl Dixon in Calvary Chapel Sarasota and he now finds himself as an Episcopal priest and theology and apologetics professor at Reformed Theological Seminary and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He speaks about death metal, the book of common prayer, Law / Gospel distinctions and caring for victims of sexual assault or physical abuse. Justin is an award-winning author, professor, and priest. He has written or edited twenty books on abuse, theology, and biblical studies.Justin teaches theology and apologetics at Reformed Theological Seminary and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. He previously taught at the University of Virginia, Emory University, Agnes Scott College, and Westminster Seminary.Justin is an Episcopal priest and serves as the Canon for Vocations in the Diocese of Central Florida. He serves on the boards of GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in Christian Environments), HeartSupport, and Leaders Collective. Justin and Lindsey helped co-found REST in 2009. He is a co-host for the White Horse Inn podcast and a guest co-host for the As In Heaven podcast.Justin graduated from Southeastern University in 1994 with a B.A. in Biblical Studies. In 1997, he obtained a M.A. in Theological Studies and a M.A. in Christian Thought from Reformed Theological Seminary. Justin also studied at the University of Oxford during the summer of 1996. He earned his Ph.D. from Emory University in Theological Studies with a concentration in Comparative Religious Studies.Justin and his wife, Lindsey, live in Orlando, Florida, with their two daughters.Justin wrote:God With Us: 365 Devotions on the Person and Work of ChristKnow the HereticsKnow the Creeds and CouncilsCaring For Survivors of Sexual AbuseOn the Grace of GodActs: A 12-Week StudyEcclesiastes: A 12-Week StudyWhat Do You Do For A Living?Justin and his wife, Lindsey, are authors of:God Made Babies: Helping Parents Answer the Baby QuestionGod Made Me in His Image: Helping Children Appreciate Their BodiesGod Made All of Me: A Book to Help Children Protect Their Bodies Received the ECPA Bronze Sales Award for exceeding 100,000 copies soldChildren and Trauma: Equipping Parents and CaregiversIs It My Fault?: Hope and Healing for Those Suffering Domestic ViolenceRid of My Disgrace: Hope and Healing for Victims of Sexual AssaultRid of My Disgrace: Small Group Discussion GuideResources Mentioned: Rid of My Disgrace - Hope and Healing for Victims of Sexual Assault : https://www.crossway.org/books/rid-of-my-disgrace-ebook/ Is it My Fault? Hope and Healing for Those Suffering Domestic Violence. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802410243/ref=as_li_qf_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=justholc-20&creative=9325&linkCode=as2&creativeASIN=0802410243&linkId=47c04d3e9c499208e3634cd0cf271dcfRecommended Episodes: Preaching the Law & Preaching the Gospel - Bob Hiller : https://www.expositorscollective.com/podcast/2020/12/29/preaching-the-law-amp-preaching-the-gospel-bob-hillar Heralding the Voice of Christ - Glen Scrivener : https://www.expositorscollective.com/podcast/2021/5/18/heralding-the-voice-of-christ-glen-scrivener The Preacher as Hitman and Midwife - Dr. Scott Keith : https://www.expositorscollective.com/podcast/2020/10/13/the-preacher-as-hitman-and-midwife-dr-scott-keith Preaching Hope In Darkness - Karen Mason and Scott Gibson : https://www.expositorscollective.com/podcast/2021/1/12/preaching-hope-in-darkness-karen-mason-and-scott-gibsonJoin our private Facebook group to continue the conversation: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ExpositorsCollectiveThe Expositors Collective podcast is part of the GoodLion podcast network, for more thought provoking Christian podcasts visit https://goodlion.io

In this episode of Theology Applied, Dr. Joe Boot (President of the Ezra Institute) reveals the false doctrines that have caused Christians to forfeit so much ground in culture/politics. Pastor Joel Webbon and Dr. Joe Boot thoroughly explain the pitfalls of Michael Horton's Two-Kingdom Theology and Timothy Keller's Social Justice. Neither of these approaches to culture/politics are actually biblical. Dr. Boot further makes his case for proper Christian involvement in culture/politics by distinguishing the Mission of the Church from the Mission of individual Christians. Lastly, Dr. Boot answers an incredibly relevant question: Is Homosexuality/Transgenderism a “Gospel Issue”?

WordMp3 Voices, hosted by Gregg Strawbridge, brings you voices from the past that effect the present. WordMp3.com is an online audio library of Christian world and life view resources. Our voice today is that of Cornelius Van Til (1895-1987), influential thinker, theologian, pastor, and founding faculty member of Westminster Seminary.